1904-05-06

PRIVATE BILLS-EXTENSION OF TIME.

Mr. FRANK OLIVER (Alberta) moved :: That that portion of the 49th rule which limits the time for receiving petitions for private Bills be suspended in reference to the petition to the Edmonton Street Railway Company, presented this day, praying for an Act to amend their Act of incorporation, in accordance with the recommendation contained in the 10th report of the Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders, and that the said petition be read and received forthwith.
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Mr.  R. L.@: BOItDEX. I believe that this was made necessary by reason of causes which came into existence very recently, and that, therefore, this should be an exception to the general rule. Am I correct in that understanding ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 89) to incorporate the Cedar Rapids Manufacturing and Power Company.-Mr. Geoffrion.
Bill (No. 95) to incorporate the Vancouver Island Railway Company.-Mr. Macpherson -by Mr. Morrison.
Bill (No. 96) to incorporate the Crawford Bay and St. Mary's Railway Company.-Mr. Macpherson-by Mr. Morrison.
Bill (No. 97) respecting the Trans-Canada Railway Company.-Mr. Girard.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Fisheries) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 98) respecting the harbour of Port Arthur in the province of Ontario.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Would the hon. minister be good enough to explain ?
Mr. PREB'ONTAINE. The object of the Bill is simply to put the harbour of Port Arthur under the jurisdiction of harbour commissioners. This Bill was presented last year at the request of gentlemen from Port Arthur, but was withdrawn for further consideration. This year they have come back and asked that the matter be again taken up and that this port be put under the control of the harbour commissioners.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE.: (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 99) respecting the harbour of Fort William in the province of Ontario. He said :	This Bill is introduced for the same reasons as the preceding Bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 100) to amend the Pilotage Act.
Mr. CLARKE.: Will the hon. minister explain ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The Bill is a very simple one ; it is only to authorize the Governor General in Council to constitute the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the officials of his department the pilotage authority for part of a harbour under the jurisdiction of the harbour commissioners. A difficulty has presented itself in regard to the application of the law which was passed last session regarding the Saguenay river. The pilotage authority for that river was formerly vested in the harbour commissioners of Quebec. With the consent of all the parties interested, the law was amended and the pilotage authority of the Saguenay river, part of the district formerly under the jurisdiction of the harbour commissioners of Quebec, was put under the control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Unfortunately in that Bill it was not provided that the pilotage authority should be vested in the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, so when the law came to be applied as regards the regulation and examination of pilots, it was found that the Minister of Marine could not act. It is to obviate this difficulty, which may also present itself in other cases, that the Bill is introduced.


Mr. SPROULE.: It puts them all under the authority of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: No, as it may be in the interest of navigation the Governor General in Council may constitute the Minister of Marine the pilotage authority for a part or the whole of a harbour which is under the control of commissioners.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Any harbour in Canada ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Any harbour in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 101) to amend the Steamboat Inspection Act, 1888. He said : The effect of the Bill is :
To provide for the inspection of the machinery and equipment of steamboats propelled by gas, fluid, naphtha, electricity, or any other mechanical or chemical power, and in the case of such vessels for making such changes in forms A and B of the second schedule hereto as he deems advisable.
Hitherto these boats could not be legally examined under the law as it exists, and, as with modern progress, many of these boats are now on the water, it is thought to be in the public interest that they should be subject to inspection when required.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Those boats that are not let out for hire, such as private yachts and boats, are they subject to inspection too ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Not those that are used for pleasure, hut those that may be hired or may be used for the ferrying of people from one place to another, or for excursions will be subject to inspection.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Private yachts will not be subject to inspection ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: If they are used for these purposes they will be.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Does this apply to gasoline launches as well ? If it does, I want to inform the minister that among the Thousand Islands on both sides of the river there are thousands of these little yachts propelled by gasoline engines and I know that a commotion will be raised if the hon. gentleman tries to interfere with the gasoline yacht. Many of these private yachts on both sides of the river do more or less ferrying.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: If they are used for conveying the public surely the public is entitled to be protected. If these boats are let out, or a charge is made for ferrying people, I think they should be put on the same footing as other boats used for the same purpose.


Mr. CLANCY.: Does the hon. gentleman propose to grant certificates ? I know of cases where boats were used for hire and for carrying passengers, where the inspectors for the Marine Department refused to make an examination or to grant certificates. Is this to meet difficulties of that kind and to grant certificates in future where the men are up to the standard ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Exactly. It is to meet these demands that are made at different times for the inspection of machinery and equipment of these boats.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is any provision made for the examination of the officers and engineers in charge ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Yes, of course, there is provision to grant certificates to the mechanics who are employed on board those boats.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to ask the hon. minister whether or not the Bill is founded on any investigation and report of the officers of the hon. gentleman's department ? Might I also suggest that if the Bill is founded on any such report it would be wise to have the report laid on the table of the House for the information of those who may desire to discuss the measure.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Certainly. When the Bill comes before the Committee of the Whole House, all the information will be given. This Bill is not introduced of my own motion or because of my experience ; it is introduced because it has been recommended by the officers in charge of this part of the department. But complaints of this kind Mr. CLARKE.
have been reported to me, and I have also been many times approached directly to have such a law as this passed to remedy the existing defect.


Mr. MORRISON.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if his amendment covers the case of a steam launch towing a string of fishing boats or pleasure barges or in work of that kind ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: It would cover them all if they were for the use of the public and for hire.


George Taylor: There are many hired in this way : I go to a livery and hire a boat for the day. That is my boat for the time being and not subject to inspection. It is my property for that day. There are hundreds of them used in that way by livery men all along the river. You go to a boat house and hire a row boat or gasoline launch for a day. Is it the intention to make the law applicable to these launches which are simply hired out in the same way as a horse and buggy ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The point will have to be considered when the Bill comes before the Committee of the Whole, but I am quite sure it would be advisable that such boats should be inspected. I do not think the hon. gentleman would like to use the boat that had not been inspected and thus expose his precious life upon the waters.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman will have to have an army of officers to inspect them all. It will put the people who have been using these boats for several years to-a great deal of inconvenience.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would like to ask the hon. minister, if, in the framing of this Bill, the representations which have been made to the department during the past three or four years by the society of Marine Engineers have been taken into consideration ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The Bill is the result of representations by different parties-people owning boats, people using them and people who are asking for certificates, or asking that their boats should be inspected. We cannot at present provide the necessary inspection certificates nor the necessary certificates for the men operating these boats. When the Bill is considered all the circumstances and all the facts will be put before the House. I came to the conclusion that a law of this kind would be in the public interest.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved for

leave to introduce Bill (No. 102) to amend the Shipping Casualties Act 1901.
Mr. KAULBACH.: Will the hon. minister please explain ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: This Bill is rather important in that it provides that in case an accident happens to a steamboat the officer charged with the investigation, as regards the master and mate, will be empowered to investigate at the same time the case as regards the pilot. At the present time, if an accident happens and an investigation takes place at once by the order of the minister, the official who makes this investigation is entitled to proceed with the investigation as regards the master and mate, but if he discovers the fault is due to the pilot, he has to hold another investigation afterwards. Under this Bill the officer charged with the investigation, upon discovering, during the course of the investigation that the pilot is at fault, will have the right to notify the pilot according to law and put him on his defence. It will avoid the trouble of having two investigations for the same accident. When the Bill comes before the Committee of the Whole, I will be in a position to give a further explanation and go into the matter more in detail.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Rt.   H@: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my hon. friend the Minister of Militia and Defence (Sir Frederick Borden) I beg to move that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Monday to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that there may be appointed an officer who shall hold rank not below that of colonel in the militia, or In His Majesty's regular army, who may be, subject to the regulations and under the direction of the minister, charged with the military inspection of the militia ; and such officer shall be paid at such rate, not exceeding six thousand dollars per annum, as may be prescribed.-Sir Frederick Borden.
I may say that His Excellency has had communication of this resolution and approves the same.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.	-	-

Rt.   H@: On behalf of my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) I beg to move that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Monday next to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that it is expedient to provide that the bounty authorized by chapter 31 of the statutes of 1903, may be paid on lead-bearing
ores mined in Canada and delivered at a smelter in Canada, on or after July 1, 1903.-Sir Richard Cartwright.
I have to inform the House that His Excellency has had communication of this resolution and approves the same.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Order being called for :
House again in committee on Bill (No. 72) to amend the National Transcontinental Railway Act.
Rt.   H@: My hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) has not yet considered the amendments which have been suggested by the other side of the House and therefore we will not take up this item to-day, but we will resume it on Wednesday next.


Robert Laird Borden: I have already heard privately from the hon. Minister of Justice the reasons for which he desired the consideration of the measure postponed until Wednesday, and I am perfectly satisfied.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Northwest Mounted Police-pay of forces, $205,000.
["Very well, we will call it six o'clock.\nAt six o'clock committee took recess. After Recess.\nHouse resumed at eight o'clock."]
Right Hon.   S@: We ask for an increased vote of $100,000 this year to provide for 100 extra men. The old members of the ETouse will rememuer, that when the force was first organized in 1873, it was composed of 1,000 men. In 1892 or 1893 the force was decreased to 700. and in 1895 it was further decreased to 500 which is the number to-day. The rapid growth of the country, however, requires an increase of [DOT]100 men, and we have concluded to ask parliament for this extra appropriation. The force to-day has posts ranging from near Emerson in Manitoba, through the Northwest Territories, and north to the mouth of the MacKenzie river. There are eighty posts in all, and at some, there are sixty or eighty men, while at others there are only two men, and at some only one man. I have here two^ maps which show the territory over which the force is distributed, and hon. gentlemen can inspect them if they take an interest in it.


Mr. WILSON.: Does the 500 include those in the Yukon ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Yes. The duties of the police are of a very complex character. They have to protect property, and they have to guard the Indians, who at present give very little trouble, I am glad to say. The police have besides, to protect settlers, to guard against fires, to aid in the protection of the public health, and although there is, I am happy to say,

not much to do in the way of keeping ol der among the new settlers, yet the police are very useful in teaching them how to assimilate themselves to the requirements of the country.


Mr. COCHRANE.: The police duties are no greater than they always have been, and the territory is not any larger.


Wilfrid Laurier: The territory is not larger, but the population is much larger.


Edward Cochrane: I hope you are not getting in immigrants who require the police to keep them in order.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am glad to say that the new population does not necessitate any increase in the force in the way of maintaining law, but if you tell the people of the Northwest that you are in favour of decreasing the force,' I do not think you would be very welcome amongst them. We have tried again and again to reduce the force, but we have come to the conclusion that on the contrary, it is necessary to increase it.


James Clancy: Have the mounted police in the Yukon any special duties which are not discharged by the police in the Territories ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This appropriation for the Northwest Mounted Police has now reached the large sum of half a million dollars. I have a distinct recollection that some years ago. very .pointed criticism was launched at the government of the day for maintaining so large a force, it being claimed that with proper management of the country, there was no need for so many policemen.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not re-, member that my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) ever made that criticism.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No. But the member for South Oxford (Sir Richard Cartwright) usually indulged in it, and it was said that as settlement increased and civilization advanced, there could not be any trouble caused by the wild men of the plains, and that we should reduce the force. It would r.ow appear that as the settlement increases the number of policemen requires to be increased. It may be necessary, but I would point out to the Prime Minister that if he gave provincial autonomy to the Territories, he would be able to reduce this vote very materially.


James Clancy: I notice that the appropriation is increased by one-fourth although the force Is not increased by one-fourth. There seems to be a disparity in the proportions there. Would the right hon. gentleman say if any new equipment is required this year besides that for the additional


Wilfrid Laurier: men who are coming in ? The expenditure is increased by $67,500. It would seem that the increase of $22,500 is for the pay of the additional force.


Wilfrid Laurier: At present we have 500 men, and the appropriation last year was $400,000, which would be $800 per man. This year we shall have GOO men, and the expenditure will be $833 per man. I do not think we can do better than that.


James Clancy: For 600 men we are requiring an additional $100,000, which is not the same proportion.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, it is. The vote this year amounts to $833 per man. If you look at the way the $100,000 is distributed, you will find that there is $70,000 for the pay of the force, $20,000 for re-arming the force and $10,000 for new buildings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is an increase of practically 20 per cent in the number of men. What demand has induced the government to make this increase ? I have not noticed any signs of lawlessness in the Northwest Territories that would seem to Justify it.


Wilfrid Laurier: The reason for the increase is the increase of population in the country, and the fact that we are obliged to control a larger part of the territory than formerly. For instance, instead of being able to reduce the force along the southern frontier, we shall probably have to increase it in order to protect our territories from lawlessness in the United States. Then, we have been obliged to put some detachment in the northern parts of the Territories. We have to patrol practically the whole extent of the Mackenzie river, and we intend to put a force along the shores of the Hudson Bay to protect our people from poachers, smugglers and the like. All these conditions make an increase in the force quite natural.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is a form of quasi self-government in the Northwest Territories. Is there no other force of peace officers in the country ? Do the people depend solely and entirely on the Northwest Mounted Police ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Largely. Where municipalities have been organized there are municipal police officers, but elsewhere the protection of life and property is attended to exclusively by the mounted police.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What number is it proposed to send to the Hudson Bay territory?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is impossible to say at present. We have there now Inspector Moodie and five men. We contemplate establishing three or four new posts along the coast.



Mr. INGRAM.: Is it the practice of the mounted police to erect new buildings, or is that work done by the Public Works Department ?


Wilfrid Laurier: We erect our own buildings. The Public Works Department has nothing to do with them.


Mr. SCOTT.: As one who has some knowledge of the conditions in the Northwest, I would take occasion to say that to-day, although the mounted police force is only half the strength it was ten years ago, there is fully ten times more work for the force to do than there was then. I think that statement will be endorsed by any one who is fairly familiar with the conditions that prevail to-day and the conditions that prevailed ten years ago. As the Prime Minister has stated, while the area of the Northwest Territories has not increased, the area patrolled by the Northwest Mounted Police has very largely increased. We are maintaining police posts on the Hudson Bay and on the Mackenzie river, and a considerable detachment is maintained north of Edmonton in the Peace river or Lake Athabasca country.


Edward Cochrane: Will the hon. gentleman tell me that the immigrants going in and farming want protection, as they did when there were only a few, and Indians were roaming around ?


Thomas Walter Scott: There are a certain number of white Canadians as well as Indians in the districts where these mounted police posts are being maintained ; and in the neighbourhood of the Mackenzie river country some of our friends the Americans are engaged in the sealing or whaler*industries.


Mr. HAGGART.: We are sending a ship of war there, however.


Thomas Walter Scott: Possibly we may have to do so later on, when our navy is a little better organized. But I rise chiefly to bring to the attention of the House


Edward Cochrane: I want to inform the hon. gentleman that he has not answered my question. I want to know if, when people go into that country and settle down to agricultural pursuits, they requite the mounted police to protect them ? If immigration is coming in there at the rate they tell us, and I am glad to believe it is, why should the settlers want protection there any more than those in Ontario or anywhere else when they take up land?


Thomas Walter Scott: Unquestionably there is a condition which settlement will reach in any country, in which there will be less necessity for a force of this nature, but that condition has not yet been reached in the Northwest Territories. The increase of population is not altogether in the old settled districts. As the population increases,
so does the area of settlement, and there is need to-day for police posts in dozens of localities in the Territories, which did not have, any population at all a dozen years ago.


Edward Cochrane: Can you not utilize in those places the police who were in the parts that are now settled ?


Thomas Walter Scott: There may be localities where the conditions are more nearly approaching those we have in Ontario and Manitoba and where consequently the force is not so necessary as it was some years ago, and in those parts there are very few police at present. But there has to be supervision by the police over the whole area if only for the reason that up to the present the administration in criminal matters is in the jurisdiction of this parliament. But the reason particularly why I rose is to call the attention of the government to what I consider a necessity. That is an increase in the pay of the men. However, before coming to that point I would ask the right hon. the First Minister if he has given any attention to the matter I brought forward last year regarding the pension basis. The hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. Haggart) then found fault with my method of proceeding as not being strictly in order, on the ground that it was not competent for a private member to introduce a Fill which called for an increase in expenditure. As I explained at that time, there is a difference in the pension basis as between the officers and privates of the force, to the detriment of the latter, which should not exist. But apart from that, I believe it is necessary, for the well-being of the Northwest as well of the force, that higher pay should be given the privates.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What do they get now ?


Thomas Walter Scott: They begin at 50 cents a day with the possibility of reaching the maximum of 75 cents a day at the end of five years. My suggestion would be that the men should be started


Mr. BOYD.: At 75 cents ?


Thomas Walter Scott: At least at 60 cents a day and that the maximum of 75 cents be reached within a shorter period, say at the end of three years. Conditions are so radically changed all over Canada as regards the cost of living, there has been such a general increase in the wages of workingmen, that it is only reasonable the men of the Mounted Police force should receive higher pay than they did half a dozen years ago, and such an increase as I advocate would promote the general efficiency of the force.


James Clancy: I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman if the increase of 100 men is for the Territories alone and not for the Yukon.


Wilfrid Laurier: For the Territories alone. In the Territories the force will consist of 600 men and in the Yukon of 300 men.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I am somewhat surprised to hear the First Minister saying that a larger number of Mounted Police is necessary to-day than ten years ago. I remember quite well that, under former governments, very strong objection was made by the then opposition in the House to the number of Police in that country, but it appears now that these hon. gentlemen have come to see the error of their ways and are justifying the course of former Conservative administrations. To my mind a much smaller force would perform to-day the same service as it required a larger force to perform eight or ten years ago. The whole country is now permeated with railways.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, Permeated !


David Henderson: Formerly when policemen were required to go to any particular section of the country from headquarters of from any particular post, they had to go on horseback, whereas to-day they can be sent east and west by rail in a very short time. Therefore, I am at a loss to understand why this increase should be called for. It would seem to indicate that we have made a mistake in bringing in the class of immigrants we are doing. Surely the people who are coming in now are not of so lawless a character that they are harder to keep under control than was the wild Indian, who was our great bugbear in days past. But the Indian population has been placed on reserves and so guarded that we have no longer to apprehend the same danger from them as we did formerly. Moreover, when we find the country more thickly settled, as it is to-day, we have less difficulty in maintaining law and order, because the population themselves may be relied on to a great extent to do that, and a much smaller force would be required than was needed some ten years ago. The hon. imember for Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) pleads for higher pay for the police. I am not going to offer any objections, but I think it is high time that the stock argument of hon. gentlemen opposite to justify an increase was dropped. We were told five' or six years ago that under our new tariff and our preferential policy everything was going to be cheap. People were going to buy goods for a great deal less money. We were going to import more goods from abroad. Clothing was to come in at enormously reduced prices, and the people were going to be able to support themselves on much less money. Why, there is scarcely a week during the session but we find hon. gentlemen to your right, Mr. Chairman, pleading for increased pay for public officials on account of the Mr. CLANCY.
enormously increased cost of living. I confess that that is an argument I cannot understand. If there is any truth in the allegation that the preferential tariff has been a benefit to the people of this country, it ought to operate just the reverse way ; and, instead of the salaries growing larger they ought to grow smaller. Wre find the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) for instance, putting forth the claim for increased salaries to judges on account of increased cost of living. And the same with regard to other officials. We are told that the clothing and other things required for the Mounted Police have gone up in price notwithstanding the boasted preferential tariff which was to benefit everybody and give us the means of securing cheap clothing, cheap food, and so on.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The benefit stops -with the importer.


David Henderson: The benefit of the preferential tariff may not have reached the Northwest. I apprehend that it has not, and that it will take many years to do so. Why, it has not reached us in Ontario yet.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, Has it not ?


David Henderson: 
Nathaniel Boyd: We have another instance here of the government finding it necessary to change their views, just as they have found it necessary to change them on many other questions. Some of us here can remember how, in this House, hon. gentlemen opposite used to find fault with the amount of pay to the mounted police for the ardu-

ous work they were performing-much more arduous in those days than it is now.
I am not here to find fault with the increase in the numbers or with the increase in the pay, because it is well known that no finer body of men ever wore His Majesty's clothes in any country than the mounted police of Canada. In view of the splendid service they have rendered to Canada, it does not lie in the mouth of any man here, or of any man in the country, to find fault with them or to be small or mean with regard to their pay. But all this will be settled and overcome as soon as the government see fit to give that country that which it is clamouring for-the power to manage its own affairs. When they can overcome some of the little quibbles relating to school questions and other things, quibbles which should not be allowed to stand in the way of this great reform, they will see that that Northwest country should be granted provincial autonomy. When that is granted the people there will be able to govern themselves in any way they feel disposed. But so long as they are in the position they are kept in now, just so long will they be able to claim, in many places where probably they do not need it, the protection the mounted police afforded in the past. I am in accord with the hon. member who asks for higher pay. I would be willing to give them 75 cents a day. We know what inveterate smokers policemen are, and we know the spare time they have on their hands to gratify that taste. But with the increased price iu tobacco on account of the government's policy with regard to that great solace of soldier and civilian, 75 cents a day would not be out of place.


Edward Cochrane: Did this government increase the duty on tobacco ?


Nathaniel Boyd: My hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) knows what they did, and he knows the effect of it. I trust that the government, in order to stop this discussion year after year, will see fit to give us provincial autonomy in that country, and so there will be no necessity for such discussions.


Thomas Walter Scott: It is most satisfactory that we who live in the Northwest Territories should be allowed to know exactly what is in the minds of hon. gentlemen opposite in relation to this question of provincial autonomy. We have been told definitely that one' of the reasons why the opposition wishes autonomy given immediately to the people of that country is that thus upon the Northwest Territories may be thrown the responsibility of providing their own railways. And now we are told distinctly by two hon. gentlemen who occupy places on the opposition benches that the reason why autonomy should at once be granted is that the mounted police force may be immediately abolished.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Thomas Walter Scott: I do not want to follow my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) into a tariff discussion this afternoon. To some extent he and I agree on the question of cheapness. The fact that certain things are cheap does not necessarily prove that the country is prosperous. There are things in the Northwest that, during the last six or seven years, have materially increased in price. It is in the knowledge of everybody that lands in that country have not only doubled, but quadrupled in price within the last few years. And certainly the increase in the price of lands is not to be put to the credit of a high tariff, because when we had a higher tariff than we have at present the people who owned lands in that country could not sell them in many cases at any price. We have had a discussion in recent days about cheap railways. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House said that ten-thousand-dollar-a-mile railways were wanted in that country, and that they were being built in Manitoba. The only cheap railways in the Northwest of which we have knowledge are two with which the hon. junior member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) is connected. These cost $11,000 a mile, and at present the people of all Saskatchewan and a large portion of Assiniboia are complaining of not being able to get any facilities for" transportation over these cheap railways. The Northwest wants no more roads of this class. Let me point out to my hon. friend from Halton that, by the census of 1890 the population of the Northwest Territories amounted to 66,000 souls. At that time a very large majority of the population were of Canadian and British origin. Today, I venture to say, the population of the Northwest Territories is not less than 350,000 souls, and probably more than 50 per cent of it is not of Canadian or British origin.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is it ?


Thomas Walter Scott: A large proportion of it is from the continent of Europe, people whom we are glad to welcome within our borders, people who are making a great success in the work of developing our vacant lands in the Northwest Territories. But it is to the advantage of the people of the Northwest, as well as of the people of the east, that the Mounted Police should be maintained to give advice and assistance to these people. The police are needed, not so much to watch against these people's criminal proclivities, because, I venture to say, they are very 'little worse in that respect than those who come from the British islands, from the older parts of Canada, or from the United States. But together with any large movement of population there will be found a considerable element of people who do demand some attention from the civil authorities. I do not suppose we can get any better class of people than are coming from the United States. We are getting them by the tens of thousands per annum now, but amongst these

people, whom we welcome, and whose admission to the country not a man in this House would oppose for one moment, there are bound to sift in a considerable number of people whose presence makes it very advisable, to say the least, that strong police force should be maintained in that country.


James Clancy: Is the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) not giving Canada a rather bad certificate ? How will people who contemplate going into the Northwest view the statement of the hon. gentleman that they are going into a country where police protection is required because of the character of the persons who are to be their next neighbour ? Is that the certificate of character the hon. gentleman is giving our country ? The hon. gentleman should seek some other excuse, if any excuse is necessary. Of course the right hon. the Prime Minister will tell us where the 100 men are to be stationed and the duties they are to perform, but unless the increase is an increase necessary, perhaps an increase of the pay of those already in the service might be a more pressing need than the increase in number. I think that unless the hon. gentleman is persuaded that the increase in number is very much more essential to the welfare and advancement of that country than the granting to the men who have been in the service and are still in the service, a remuneration that would compare with the remuneration in other walks of life, we should grant the increase rather than increase the numbers. Speaking for myself personally, I would be willing to support additional payment, but let us first consider whether we should increase the burdens of the country unless it is absolutely necessary. We are adding 100 men to the force in the west, and if the conditions are such as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) has described, and if by reason of the increase of population and the character of a considerable number of those coming in, we must add 100 to the force- for he has told us that it is not so much for protection against the Indians as to keep the settlers under the terror of the presence and existence of the Mounted Police-


Thomas Walter Scott: I hopp the hon. gentleman will not put words in my mouth which I did not use.


James Clancy: I tried to give the hon. gentleman's speech the mildest interpretation I could, and I hope the hon. gentleman will feel called upon to take that all back and to find some other reason why we should have an increase of 100 men, because, otherwise, he will frighten every good citizen of every other country, who contemplates settling in our west.


Thomas Walter Scott: I suppose the hon. gentleman from Both well (Mr. Clancy) will admit that as long as the Indians were alone in that country, there was no great neees-


Thomas Walter Scott: sity for a mounted police force. In 1890, as I stated, we had a force of 1,000 strong, with only about 60,000 people. The movement into that country of a certain number of people made it advisable that the Mounted Police force should be organized. I believe that the hon. member for Bothwell was not in the House in 1890, but the hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. Hag-gart) was here at that time, and I do not think that he would feel it would be consistent for him to-day to oppose an increase in the Mounted Police force from 500 to 600, in view of the fact that while we have in the country to-day some 350,000 people scattered over five times the area covered in 1890, the hon. gentleman was at that time supporting the maintenance in that country, with only 66,000 people of a force twice the strength of that which wo have there to-day.


Mr COCHRANE.: I am pleased to hear that a number t)f Americans are going into this country. We are glad to have that class of people coming in there, but you, Mr. Chairman, will remember very well the time when the Conservative government had an immigration agent in the United States and when that agent reported to the committee on agriculture that there was a movement on foot and that immigration was coming in from the United States, the friends of the hon. gentleman moved that that agent's evidence be not piinted. They said it was the most absurd proposition ever submitted to intelligent men that people from the United States would emigrate to western Canada.


Thomas Walter Scott: What year wras that ?,


Edward Cochrane: You are old enough to know without asking me that question. It was when your friends were in opposition and were talking such nonsense that they have since gone back on every principle they then submitted. It was the Conservative party who laid the foundation of the immigration from the United States and we did not think that when that part of the country became thickly populated, wTe would have to increase the police force. I would like to ask the leader oi the government if Ontario or Quebec required greater police protection as they became more thickly settled. There has been a band of Indians in my county from time immemorial, but we do not require increased protection because the country *was filling up with a peaceful settlement of industrious people. The absurd argument lias only to be stated to show' how fallacious it is. To tell me that because the country is filling in with peaceable agricultural people, they wfill require more protection. Why did not Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba and the older provinces as they became thickly settled, require an increased police protection.

2698 [DOT]


Thomas Walter Scott: So they did. The larger a city becomes, the more police it has.


Edward Cochrane: No they don't. You had better read and not talk through you hat so much. Talk about Ontario requiring police protection, we never required it. The hon. gentleman says it is not so much the Indians as the siftings. 1 think there is too much Siftonism there and that is the reason they require so much protection. I wish to point out to the hon. gentleman who takes so much credit to the policy of the present government for the increased immigration, that they had nothing to do with it. The right hon. leader of the government laughs. He forgets what he and his party told us about the western country, that it was only fit for the bear and the wild Indians, and British Columbia was a sea of mountains while the Canadian Pacific Railway would never pay the grease on the axles. The speech of the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) was circulated as immigration literature for the United States, and then these gentlemen have the audacity to come up here and tell us that there is greater immigration because we had higher portect-ion. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he can tell me how much lower the tariff is now than when the Conservative party was in power ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Ask the woollen men.


Edward Cochrane: No, it is not because the tariff is any lower. It is because of the preference.


Thomas Walter Scott: What are they complaining about then ?


Edward Cochrane: It is from the fact that the British manufacturers know how to manipulate and send into this country a class <if goods which is largely composed of shoddy to compete with the goods manufactured here. Other goods come from Germany, a little labour is put into them in Great Britain and then they come in here under the preferential tariff. That is because hon. gentlemen opposite made a mistake as they have made a mistake in regard to everything they have touched ever since you came into power.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: The statement of the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Air. Scott) is of such a startling character that it requires some explanation. The statement that the duties of the mounted police have increased tenfold what they were ten years ago and the reason given therefore that it is due to the character of the immigration that is coming into this country are things which may be taken hold of by our friends to the south of us and may materially interfere with the settlement of our western country in the near future. The statement appearing in 1 Hansard ' that the settlers going into the Northwest are possessed of such
extraordinary criminal proclivities as to increase tenfold the duties of the mounted police within ten years is a very startling statement and one that is calculated to do serious damage to this country both as regards immigration from the United States and as regards immigration from Europe. I trust that the hon. gentleman will find some b. tt r excuse for the increase in the mounted police than that which he has been able to give to the committee.	*


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What I cannot understand is that in the older settled parts of the country these police stations must be kept up the same as they were when the country was comparatively unsettled. In Wolseley, Grenfell, Areola, Estevan, Gainsborough, and even in Regina where the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) lives and where the enlightened influence of the journalistic pen which he has wielded so long, police stations are kept up. Qu'Appelle, Moosejaw, Swift Current and Medicine Hat also have their police stations. I passed through many of these places twenty-two years ago when settlement was commencing. Since then settlement has extended in every direction and the country is becoming organized. You have now an organized territory where you had a comparatively new and unsettled country before. Surely there ought to be some machinery to enforce respect for law and order in these settled portions of the country without making it absolutely necessary for the government to keep up a mounted police force and to increase it in proportion to the increase in settlement. Naturally, as civilization advances and education extends, we would expect that we would be able to dispense with the services of this force. We were told many years ago that that ought to be the natural course, but it seems that notwithstanding the rapid advance of settlement in that country it is lecessary to keep up the police force the same as it was when there were only a few Indians roaming over the plain. This seems to be a question which ought to be dealt with in some other way. There is something defective about our system, because, otherwise, we would not require to increase police force in proportion to the increase of settlement in that country.


Air. FOWLER.: If we had heard this statement from the hon. member for Alberta (Air. Oliver) we would not have been so much surprised, because the House is accustomed to hear that hon. gentleman abuse the character of the immigration that is going into that country. That hon. gentleman on several occasions discussed the character of the immigration that is going into the Northwest Territories and on each occasion he has seen fit to denounce a certain part of the settlers who are going in there. It was a surprise to me, at all events, to I hear the hon. member for West Assiniboia

(Mr. Scott) make suck an indictment against tke immigration that we are glad to see is flowing into the Northwest Territories. We were under the impression that that was a good class of immigration. We were under the impression from what we had heard and read and seen when we were in that country that the class of persons who were going in was a very desirable class.


Thomas Walter Scott: The very best.


George William Fowler: X am very glad to know from the remark made by the hon. member for West Assiniboia that he is sorry for the statements he has made and wants to withdraw them. It is never too late to repent. But it was certainly a very serious indictment which the hon. gentleman preferred against that class of people to say that the class of people whom we supposed were law-abiding citizens was such as to require a very large increase in the police force, was such that the duties devolving upon the police force were tenfold greater than they were ten years ago. I think that it is a most surprising statement that has come from that hon. gentleman. I could understand that the particular friends of the hon. member for Alberta might require some particular attention when they go on those occasional pilgrimages, but I did not suppose that that applied to the class of people coming in from the other side. The hon. member for West Assiniboia spoke particularly of those persons coming from the United States. Now when I have been in the Northwest I have had the pleasure of meeting a great many of these people from the United States and I think they are an exceptionally fine class of people.


Thomas Walter Scott: The very best.


George William Fowler: I am surprised and pained to know that an hon. gentleman who lives in that country, an hon. gentleman who represents a portion of that country would stand up here and say that in consequence of the' bad character of the criminal propensities


Thomas Walter Scott: Mr. Chairman, I must protest against being so repeatedly misquoted and having my remarks so grossly and so repeatedly misconstrued.


George William Fowler: I congratulate the hon. gentleman that even at this eleventh^ hour he sees the error of his ways and is willing to withdraw. The hon. gentleman perhaps did not appreciate the force of his language, but I appeal to hon. gentlemen who were in the committee at the time that the hon. gentleman made the statement if he did not say that it was in consequence of the criminal propensities of the settlers coming in from the other side of the line that it was necessary to increase this force. I do not believe that is so. I believe they are a very fine and law-abiding class of people. I be-


George William Fowler: lieve they are coming into this country for the purpose of bettering themselves, for the purpose of finding homes in a country that is better governed than the country they have left behind. I believe that they have come here to support good government and X believe that if there were no policemen within one hundred miles of them they would be law-abiding citizens. I can say the same for the class of people who were there before. A good class of people have gone in there from the older parts of the Dominion, from Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island to erect homes for themselves. These men have something else to do beyond following vice. They are industrious, sober, steady and they are trying to make homes for themselves and to make a nation out of those fertile plains. I do not think that this class of people requires greatei supervision than they had ten years ago. The Indians are not so dangerous as they were in the early days. They are becoming civilized, they want to drink whisky like Christians, and I do not see why the police foice should be increased on their account. But there was one remark that the hon. gentleman made with which I hardly agree, and that is that the pay of the force should be increased. I think he was too modest in his request when he said that a man on joining the force should get sixty cents a day. I believe that the first consideration should not be the number of the force but the efficiency of the force, and you cannot get first-class men unless you pay them properly. The reason for proposing to increase the force does not certainly lie in the argument of the hon. member (Mr. Scott) when he says, that the people are less law-abiding now than they were some years ago. I had same personal experience in the Northwest, and I wish to state here that I do not believe that statement.
Mr. [DOT] OLIVER. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House remind us of the old saying : None are so blind as those who will not see. One would have supposed that the knowledge which some of them obtained in the Northwest during their celebrated tour there, would have taught them that it is a country of considerable extent, and that as its population is increasing so enormously there is necessity for an increase in all public services. In a territory 800 miles in one direction and 400 miles in another, and having outposts at a distance of 2,000 miles, the question as to whether 500 men or 600 men are necessary may very well be left to those who are charged with its administration.
I wish to remind these gentlemen opposite, that it was not the member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) who insinuated that the country required more policemen because of the character of the settlers; that insinuation

came from hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House.


Some hon. MEMBERS: No.


Frank Oliver: Yes. The necessity for an increase in the number of mounted police is caused by the increase of population, and not because of a change in its character. Let us suppose that there are a quarter million people in the Territories to-day, scattered over an area of many thousands of square miles. Let me point out that in the city of Montreal, the trade centre of the Dominion, surrounded by all the appliances of civilization, with all the traditions that earry good government from one generation to another, and having a population not as large as that of the Territories, they have at present a police force of 300 men.


Some hon. MEMBERS: More.


Mr. LEMIEUX.: And they want to increase the force there.


Frank Oliver: And, suppose the municipal authorities of Montreal do increase the police force, will that deter people from going to reside in Montreal or from buying property there ? Not at all. On the contrary, when it is known that the police force is to be increased in proportion to the increase of population, people will be very much more likely to take up residence and to purchase property there.
It is the same with the Northwest Territories. Within the last few years our population has increased by many thousands. That population is scattered over vastly greater areas than ever before, and there is nothing descreditable to the people of the Territories, or to the Mounted Police themselves, or to the government in the fact, that it is proposed to increase the force by 100 men. Indeed it is largely to the credit of the incoming population and of the Mounted Police and of the administration, that a larger increase in the force is not necessary. Notwithstanding that the population of Montreal is densely settled in a city, yet, if the population of Montreal had increased in the same ratio as the population of the Territories, there is no doubt that the police force of that city would be correspondingly increased. I take if for granted, that hon. gentlemen opposite are not serious, and that they are merely putting up their argument as a little joke. However, if they be serious, I would ask them to look at the conditions which prevail in the western states of Montana, Wyoming and Colorado, where the conditions as to population and the movable character of the property owned by the people are somewhat similar, and if these gentlemen compare the conditions existing In these states with the conditions existing in our Territories, I am certain they will come to the conclusion, that the Northwest Mounted Police force is one of the best investments that the Dominion of Canada ever made. I would point out also to these hon. gentlemen, that in the province of Ontario, you have not stock on the ranges which must be guarded against dishonest people who may come to any country, and that the conditions existing in Ontario are not at all comparable to those existing in the Territories.


Edward Cochrane: But Montreal is similar.


Frank Oliver: The conditions in Montreal
are very dissimilar. The natural conditions in a country like the Northwest Territories render it more difficult for the police to enforce law and order than in Montreal or any other city, and it is all the more creditable to our Northwest Mounted Police that law and order are so well enforced. Let me point out further that in this fair province of Ontario where law and order have been known for generations, there have been committed within this last few years, most deplorable and most terrible murders, the perpetrators of which .have gone undiscovered and unwhipt of justice. That cannot be said of the Territories, where the rule is, that if murder is committed the murderer is discovered and punished for his crime. That is the difference in favour of the Northwest Territories, because of the presence of the Mounted Police there, as compared even with this very fair and orderly province of Ontario. I might even go so far as to suggest-and I believe it has been suggested, and very wisely suggested -that this province would do very well to adopt some such system of police as prevails in the Northwest Territories, for the protection of its innocent children from the murderer and the reprobate.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman shows his absolute unfairness of argument by comparing Montreal or any other city with a rural community. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Every one knows that it is in cities where people of vicious habits congregate, and not in rural districts.
Mr. OLIVER, Might I interrupt the hon. gentleman ? Where did these murders in in the province of Ontario, with which every one is familiar, occur-in the city or the country ?


George William Fowler: 'What murders does the hon. gentleman refer to ?


Frank Oliver: I speak of the murder near Owen Sound, which occurred last summer. I cannot think of all the cases just now, but four or five have occurred in the last few years, and one occurred the other day in the province of New Brunswick. Were these in the cities or the country ?


George William Fowler: Murders will of course occur in the rural districts, but not to the

same extent as in the crowded cities ; and it is unfair to compare conditions in a great crowded city like Montreal with the conditions in rural communities. These provinces get along very well without any mounted police force. In the rural communities of the province of New Brunswick, the constables are used not for criminal purposes, but for the purpose of serving papers in civil actions, and they are not paid. The hon. gentleman says, compare the superior conditions in the Territories with the conditions in the eastern provinces. Does he not see that that is an argument against increasing the police force ? Why increase it if the condition of affairs there, is far superior to what it is in the city of Montreal? The hon. gentleman has defeated his own purpose. Here we have two hon. gentlemen taking opposite positions on this matter. We have the hon. member for West Assini-boia (Mr. Scott) giving as a reason why the force should be increased, the great increase of crime in the Territories consequent upon the new population, a certain portion of which was undesirable.


Frank Oliver: The hon. gentleman persists in making incorrect statements.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman sees that his colleague has made a great mistake, and he is afraid that when the people read his statement, if they do read any statements of his, they will resent it and say that he is belying the country from which he comes. Consequently the hon. member for Alberta finds it necessary to give another reason, and the reason he gives is that the people of that country are more law-abiding than the people in the older provinces, and hence the mounted police force must be increased. Could absurdity further go ? I would suggest to these hon. gentlemen that in future they had better leave the defence of the estimates to the minister in charge, because when the back-benchers interfere, they only make a mess of it. These hod. gentlemen have been obstructing the estimates. These estimates would have gone through long ago if it had not been for the bumptiousness of the hon. member for West Assinibioa. He wanted to explain everything, and in order to give a reason for this increase, he had to belie the character of the people who have gone into the Northwest. Then the hon. member for Alberta was not satisfied to allow the minister to straighten the matter out, and he tried to improve on the other by saying that the reason they want the force increased is because the people are law-abiding. I would suggest to these hon. gentlemen that we shall get along with these estimates more easily, quickly and satisfactorily, if they will leave them in the hands of the responsible minister in charge and themselves keep silent.


Frank Oliver: Might I explain that the reason the country is so law-abiding is be-


George William Fowler: cause of the presence of the mounted police force ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: That is worse and worse.


Frank Oliver: Not at all. We give credit where credit is due-just the same as Montreal is law-abiding because of the presence of the police force ; and because Toronto is law-abiding, because of the presence of its police force. Toronto is the city of churches, the city of learning, of colleges, of education, of light and knowledge generally ; but I venture to say that Toronto has a police force of several hundred men ; and I venture to say further that it cannot get along without it, and that if the police force of Toronto resigned to-morrow, good and all as that city is, there would be trouble in every street. There is no use of hon. members opposite being funny, when there is nothing to be funny about.


Edward Cochrane: You are making a lot of fun.	.


Frank Oliver: Oh, no, not at all. Hon. gentlemen, of course, can laugh without anything being funny. That is a privilege they have.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman, like the Russians, has been driven from one position and is now trying to seek another. The hon. gentleman gave as a reason for the increase of the mounted police force that the people were law-abiding-'that they were such a splendid class of citizens. Now the hon. gentleman tells us that they are law-abiding because of their terror of the law- that it is only by compulsion that they can be kept within bounds. I regret to find the hon. gentleman adopting the tactics of the hon. member for West Assiniboia. I really thought that he believed what he said when he said that the people of the Northwest were law-abiding and good people ; but now he gives as the only reason why they are kept in subjection, and the only reason why murder and rape and all other vices are not rampant in the country is that they are kept in order by the mounted police ; and therefore, in order to prevent these crimes increasing, the force must be increased.


Frank Oliver: Mr. Chairman, I object to the hon. member or any one else putting words into my mouth which I did not use.
I am responsible for what I say, and if the hon. member cannot find in what I say, cause for comment or argument, I ask your protection against words being imputed to me which I did not use, and ideas which I did not express.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The rule is that if a statement is charged against an hon. gentleman, and he denies having made such a statement, that must end the matter fully and completely there and then.


George William Fowler: I have not violated that or any other rule of this House. I am not

in the habit of violating any of the rules of the House. X said that was the only inference from the hon. gentleman's statement. I say now that the only fair inference to be drawn from the hon. gentleman's words is that it is necessary to increase this force in. order that the population in the Territories may be kept law-abiding.


Frank Oliver: The hon. gentleman has stated repeatedly that I used certain language. I did not use the words he charges me with having uttered, and I ask, Sir, for your protection.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Peter Macdonald: The hon. gentleman is in order provided the hon. member who had the floor sat down.


George William Fowler: I sat down.


Peter Macdonald: That is right. The hon. gentleman sat down and the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) was consequently perfectly in order.


George William Fowler: I did not know that we were discussing that particular point. The hon. gentleman has asked for additional protection. He is so used to ask for police protection in that country that he is asking for protection in this House. I had no intention of assaulting the hon. gentleman by words or in any way. On the contrary,
I am a very peaceful citizen.


Frank Oliver: I have no objection to the hon. gentleman drawing any inference he pleases so long as he calls it an inference, but I must ask you, Mr. Chairman, to protect me against having language imputed to me which I did not use. The hon. gentleman is welcome to whatever inferences he chooses to draw, but when he charges me with using certain language, he must confine himself to the facts.


Mr. DAVIS.: Do not go too fax'. The people would only laugh at you if you made such a statement out there.
Mi-. FOWLER. If they were all like the hon. gentleman, I would not like to give them such a good character. The hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) may not be so law-abiding, but I am speaking of the general character of the people. They are a class of people whom I admire very much, and I very much dislike hearing them in any way reviled or vilified. I trust now the estimate will pass.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) gave as a justification for this increase in the number of the Northwest Mounted Police, the increase in population. He said that whereas in 1890 there were only 60,000 people in that country, to-day there were over 350,000, and it was consequently necessary to have an additional number of police to keep peace.


Thomas Walter Scott: At that time we had a thousand men.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The province of Manitoba has doubled her population and does not ask for any Northwest Mounted Police to preserve law and oi-der. One of two things must be wrong. Either these hon. gentlemen are wrong in the conclusion they draw or you would have a different condition of things in Manitoba. We used to have the argument before from hon. gentlemen opposite that if that country were properly governed fx-om Ottawa, thei-e would be no insurrections or rebellions and no need for Mounted Police at all. But to-day, although the people have been during the last seven or eight years enjoying what hon. gentlemen opposite would call good government-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


George William Fowler: What the hon. gentleman said was that the people of the Noi-thwest were peaceful because of the pi-esence of the Mounted Police. What inference could I draw from that except that the reverse would be the case were it not for that body ?


Frank Oliver: I did not say anything of the kind.


Peter Macdonald: That must end the niatter.


George William Fowler: It cannot prevent my drawing an inference from the hon. gentleman's language. I say that his language was such as to lead us to the conclusion that the people of the Northwest Territories were only peaceful and law-abiding because of the presence of the Mounted Police. I resent that imputation on behalf of the people of the Territories, and I assert that the people of the Northwest Tex;ritoi-ies would be peaceful- and law-abiding even if thei-e were no Mounted Police within a hundred miles of them.
Mi-. SPROULE-they say it is absolutely necessary, in the interests of peace and order, to increase that force twenty per cent. In this advancing stage of civilization, in which the press of the country is doing civilizing work, aided so effectively by the hon. gentlemen from Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) and Alberta (Mr. Oliver), in which schools are being established and educational facilities greatly extended, and in which the government of the country is in the hands of hon. gentlemen opposite, are we to be told that our civilization is a failure and an increase in the Mounted Police force an absolute necessity ?


Mr. SIFTON.: If the hon. gentlemaxi were to submit to the people of the. Northwest Territories the proposition that they should be given pi-ovincial autonomy conditional on the Northwest Mounted Police force being abolished, he would not find in the Territories five hundred people out of the four hundred thousand to vote in favour of his proposition.


Nathaniel Boyd: Give them a chance.


Clifford Sifton: If the people were to understand that the abolition of this force, and consequently our present system of maintaining law and order in that vast country, should follow the granting of provincial autonomy, there would be no popular support whatever to that proposition. So far as the proposed increase is concerned, a moment's consideration of the conditions during the past seven or eight years will illustrate very clearly the difficulties under which the management of the force have laboured. When the change of government took place in 1896, the white population of the Territories was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 100,000. At that time the Yukon Territory occupied only the attention of some nineteen or twenty mounted policemen. There was a small force at Fort Cudahy. Immediately after 1896, the opening up of the Yukon country necessitated drawing from the force of some 250 or 300 men for service in that country, and it was necessary to draft the most seasoned, experienced and capable men. Any one who knows anything of the ordinary constitution of a police force of 500 or 600 men will know that if you take away from that force 250 or 300 of its best men, you will have a body which it is very difficult to operate efficiently. Then came the fact that owing to the assiduous nature of the duties in the Yukon, many of the men who were sent out to that country left the force altogether upon the earliest opportunity. Following that again came the drain upon the force which resulted from the call to arms in South Africa. The result of all this has been that the original force, ns it stood in 1896, of trained and disciplined men. was so impaired in quality, that it became extremely difficult for the commanding officer to maintain it in that efficiency which it is desirable a force of that kind should possess. At present, looking to the facts that 300 men have to be maintained in the Yukon, that the number of outposts throughout the Territories has largely increased, and that trained and disciplined men have been largely taken away for the reasons I have given, it will toe seen that the position taken by the management of the force that they require an additional number in order that they may be able to keep a larger number at headquarters than they can at present, is amply justified.
Now, one of the great difficulties which the commanding officer in the mounted po lice meets with in the operations of his force is that the men pass out at the end of their time. Many of the best men are taken off to the Yukon Territory. The tendency is such that, in what we ordinarily call the Northwest Territories, the green men of the force are left. It is perfectly well known to men of experience in connection with a force of this kind that it takes at least two years before a man can be sufficiently Mr. SIFTON.
trained to be sent out to an isolated post where he must depend upon his own resources. He ought to be a year and a half or two years in the force before he is sent to occupy such a position. But, under present circumstances, it is impossible to carry out that principle. My recollection of my last conversation with the comptroller is that he said it is difficult for him to keep a man even six months on the force before he must be sent to duty of an isolated character. Some of the slips that have taken place in connection with the administration of justice-I am glad to say they have been rectified by increased diligence later-were due to the fact that the comptroller was in such a position that he was forced to employ men in outpost duty whom he knew to be not properly fitted for such duty. But they were the only men he had. One of the great points to be gained by the increase is that the comptroller may have a larger measure of power to keep men at headquarters under instruction and discipline, so that when they are sent out to outpost or isolated duty they will be so trained and posted in regard to their duties and will have had such experience that the country can depend upon the duty entrusted to them being properly performed.
Now, a word in regard to the general features of this case. I am not going to talk of the province of Ontario, the province of ,New Brunswick, or any of the eastern provinces. This government is not responsible for the administration of criminal justice in these provinces, and so it is a matter with which, at the present time, we are not concerned. But in the province of Manitoba, where, perhaps, some argument might be drawn, there is the large city of Winnipeg, where there is a permanent military depot and an efficient militia force which can be called upon at any time, and has been called upon from time to time for the purpose of suppressing civil disorder. That furnishes a foundation for the establishment of law and order which does not exist up to the present time in the Northwest Territories. The existence of that military depot, with the permanent force that can be called upon is of strong assistance to the civil power. But. apart from that, the fact that we have in the Northwest Territories a country of vast expanse, where, only a short time ago, the Indians were not in a satisfactory state of subjection, and where, it has been learned by experience, outbreaks were not impossible, makes it of the utmost importance- especially now, when we have, after enormous expenditure, turned the tide of population into that territory-that no indications should be given of a tendency to reduce in any way the practical efficiency of the mounted police. One of the things which attracts to our Northwest, settlers from the United States-settlers of the most valuable character-the argument which draws them with the greatest power, is the fact that we

have in this force of mounted police a system of administering justice, of preventing crime and punishing crime, that is the admiration of and the envy of the western states of the union. Especially at this time, it seems to me, it is of the utmost importance that no paltry consideration of economy in connection with this service should prevent us from keeping the force up to a point of as great efficiency, or even greater efficiency, than in. the past. The people of Canada, without respect to parties, are proud of the mounted police. We do not expect perfection in anything human, but the mounted police has been as nearly perfect in assisting the administration of justice as it was possible for any force to be. The purpose of the Prime Minister in making the recommendation is not to allow of indulgence in useless extravagance, but to strengthen this arm of the service so necessary at the present time. So far as I am concerned, I may say that, five years ago. before the drain upon the force had taken place in connection with the Yukon 'Territory and, later on, in connection with the force for service in South Africa, I was in favour of curtailing expenditure on the mounted police as far as possible. But in view of the fact that the scope of activity of the force was so increased, it is of the utmost importance that no impression should prevail, or be allowed to prevail, that we have any intention of weakening the force or abandoning the system by which we have hitherto attained such magnificent results in the maintenance of order in the Northwest Territories. It seems to me that the committee ought to be absolutely unanimous in strengthening the hands of the government to carry this into effect. I was not in my place when this debate began. But if hor.. gentlemen opposite have shown any desire to oppose this proposition, I think that upon full and fair consideration of the whole matter they will see that, if they were in the Vsame position as the government^ they would make the same proposals as we are making, and would be entitled to the support of their opponents in doing so.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The closing remark of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sifton) is a good reason why we should not criticise the statement he has made. He was not in the House when the discussion commenced, and, consequently, a great deal of what he said, while exceedingly interesting, is not apposite to the discussion which took place prior to his entry. If he had been present he would know that the discussion was due to the language used by some hon. gentlemen on that side with reference to the character of the immigration now going into the Northwest. They explained that because of the increase of undesirable people there must be an increase in the Mounted Police force. That it was that gave rise to the discussion that has been going on for more than an hour. But, as it went on, conflicting rea-861
sons were given by hon. gentlemen opposite lor the increase in the force. There was no objection to that increase, so far as I have heard, from hon. gentlemen on this side. On the contrary, there has been an upholding of the hands of the government, not only in the increase of the force, but in the increase of the pay. I, for one, would be glad to support a proposition to give the police a larger increase of pay than has been recommended by gentlemen on the treasury benches. Now, as to the reasons that have prompted the increase in the force, one given by the Minister of the Interior was the increased immigration from the United States. I am sure we can congratulate the Minister of the Interior upon the statement he has made with respect to this matter. The record which the Mounted Police has made is a creditable record, and those who established that force, and those who maintained that force in the Northwest Territories in the face of very strenuous opposition from hon. gentlemen opposite, are those who are entitled to credit for the reputation that force has made for the country, and for the peace and security that settlers in that country have enjoyed by reason of the magni-ficient work the force has done. I cordially support .the proposition made by hon. gentlemen opposite to increase the pay and increase the number of men.


Thomas Osborne Davis: Who established the force ?
Mi-. CLARKE. I say that those who established it are entitled to the credit for the good name the country has gained through the work of the force. I would ask if there are special districts where it is intended to increase the number of men-any particular posts ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No, it is not the intention to locate this additional force of 100 men in any particular place, I may say that the intention is to have a larger number at Regina to train the men there. My hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) a moment ago, suggested that there was no necessity for the depot at Regina. The depot we have there is not for the purpose of protecting the town so much as it is a drilling depot. We intend to keep a large number of men there to be drilled. And we intend to keep a large number of men there for drilling, because as has been stated a moment ago by the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) the force has been very much drawn upon for the South African war and different causes, and now while we have a splendid force, we believe that it can be made still more effective if we can keep the men longer at the head depot.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would not wish the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) to misunderstand the position taken by the opposition this afternoon. I understood the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott)

to give as one of the reasons for increasing the force that there was a certain lawless element coming into the Northwest Territories. If I am wrong in that statement I will be very glad to allow the hon. gentleman to correct me.


Thomas Walter Scott: Make your speech.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then I am correct.


Thomas Walter Scott: Let my hon. friend not further misrepresent me. I did not say he was correct. I advised him to go on and make his statement. There is, however, an element of truth in the statement he attributes to me. What I said was that in any large movement of population-and we have in recent years been receiving tens of thousands of good people, the best class that could be got to come into this territory from the Western States-there is bound to be a certain proportion of lawless element come along with the greater number of better class people.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is to say there is a certain element of undesirable people coming into the Northwest Territories.


Thomas Walter Scott: Yes, a very small proportion I am pleased to say, but a proportion.


Andrew B. Ingram: Now that we have arrived at this correction where is the difference between the statement of the hon. gentleman and the ground we have taken on this occasion ? We have simply charged that the hon. gentleman made that statement and he did not like the statement he had made. I have heard several reasons this afternoon why this item is increased, but I am bound to say the hon. gentlemen opposite have not given all the reasons for the increase.


Thomas Walter Scott: They have not been half stated.


Andrew B. Ingram: They have not been half stated. Well we have taken up a good deal of time discussing matters not pertaining to this question it would perhaps become hon. gentlemen from that district to give us the reasons why we are increasing that item. I find in the commissioner's report that he uses this language
The rapid settlement of a new country always attracts a certain lawless and undesirable element, and it is evident, from the year's crime reports, that the Northwest Territories are not an -exception.
The settlement of the Territories will probably increase at the rate of at least 100,000 a year for several years to come. It is among these that the unrecorded and often unrecognized, work of the force will he most valuable.
The construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific will call for large numbers of labourers. It is well known that the rapid construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway was considerably facilitated by the maintenance of order among the army of navvies.
The .Grand Trunk Pacific will require like assistance, and will be benefited in the same way. 1 Mr. INGRAM.
That is borne out by an officer of the government. Now here is one of the chief items why this increased item is asked.
Perhaps I would not be going too far if I said that that would not be a sufficient reason this year to ask a vote for increased Mounted Police for I do not think any hon. gentleman in this House will say that the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific will take place in the present year in this-district.


Thomas Osborne Davis: What about the Canadian Northern ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I am referring only to the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Frank Oliver: Does the hon. gentleman intend to obstruct all summer ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I may say to the horn member for Alberta that I am stating what is pertinent to the question, but he did not.
I have no objection to an increase of pay to the Mounted Police force, and I might go as far as to say that I believe if instead of . increasing the number we would increase the pay of the 500 men we now have, it would probably be more in the interest of the Mounted Police force. In Manitoba, for some years, we had Mounted Police, but as settlement came in and the district became better filled up there was less reason for having Mounted Police and as a result the police were removed from Manitoba. Perhaps it would be in the interest of the people of the Northwest Territories as well as of the force that the establishment at Regina might be greatly reduced and distributed in the newer sections where it might be really necessary to have the Mounted Police stationed. I am glad to see that although we might expect to see more or less smuggling along the boundary line, if I am to be guided by this report, there was not in 1903 and 1902 a single crime against the Customs law in the Northwest Territories. That is something of which we must be very proud, but I find that a certain class of crimes has greatly increased in the Northwest Territories, that is crimes in respect of religion and morals. Many of us know that certain things have occurred there that may be a great crime against religion and morals, but I for one would not pretent to say that the same thing might occur another year and probably it will not occur for many years to come. 1 wish my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Lau-rier) to understand that I am willing to support any reasonable expenditure that will bring about any good for the Northwest Territories, and I believe that is the view of every gentleman on this side of the House.
I would at the same time ask, in view of the large increase in population in the Northwest Territories from 100,000 in 1S9G to 350,000 or 400,000 to-day, why these people with nearly one half million of population should be deprived of provincial

autonomy ? Why should they not have the right to govern themselves, and to administer justice in their territories or provinces the same as the other portions of this country ? Surely it cannot be said that we, the Parliament of Canada, are better qualified to administer the affairs of the Northwest Territories than representatives of the people elected directly for that purpose in their own territories or provinces would be. 1 think the right hon. gentleman is neglecting this portion of the Dominion when he refuses to grant provincial autonomy to the people of the Northwest Territories.
Subsistence, light, fuel, clothing &c., $270,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is an increase here of $67,000. Is this in a fair proportion to the increase in the number or is it to increase the pay of the present force.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is not with a view of increasing the pay of the men now on the force. The question of increased pay is under consideration at the present time, and we may have to ask parliament for a further appropriation under this head. The increase of $100,000 is for the pay of the men at the in'esent time, for the re-arming of the force and for new buildings and repairs.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where do you propose to put up the new buildings ?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is not contemplated to erect any new buildings anywhere but simply to repair the buildings wherever they are.
Yukon Territory

pay of force	$170,000
Subsistence, forage, fuel and light clothing, repairs and renewals, horses, dogs, arms and ammunition, medical stores, stationery, billeting, transport and contingencies	 320,000
Buildings	 25,000


Wilfrid Laurier: This is exactly the same vote as last year with the exception of $15,000 of an increase which is for the re-arming of the force.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many men do you keep in the Yukon ?


Wilfrid Laurier: 300.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The same as the first ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No. We increased the force by fifty men two or three years ago when we were threatened with an invasion, and we have kept them there.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood that the reason for the increase at that time was that there were signs of trouble across the line and that these men must be required only for a short time after which the government might be able to reduce the number. Does the same reason exist still ?


Wilfrid Laurier: No. I am happy to say that the territory is very quiet and orderly and that there are no threats of a character similar to that which we had a few years ago. We are obliged to keep the present force up to the strength of 300 because we are always asked to establish new posts in the course of the development of the country. When new discoveries are made and when there is a rush of miners to these places we have to follow them so as to preserve law and order. We have more posts to maintain and I am afraid we will have to keep adding to them all the time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are the Mounted Police there used as collectors of customs, or do they do other work ?


Wilfrid Laurier: They assist all the departments, customs, the excise, the agriculture, and the quarantine. If anything arises which is not in the ordinary run of business the force is called upon to render service.


John Graham Haggart: The right hon. gentleman says that he is re-arming the police. They were armed with the Lee-Enfield carbine. What new arm are you going to give them ?


Wilfrid Laurier: We have only 200 Lee-Enfield rifles. They are to be rearmed with the Ross rifle.


John Graham Haggart: You are getting a further supply.


Wilfrid Laurier: We are replacing the old supply.


Thomas Walter Scott: Before we leave this item, may I ask my right hon. friend the leader of the government, if he recollects the proposition that was made last year by myself in the form of a Bill in regard to pensions for the privates of the force and whether it would not be possible at this session to change the Act in the direction suggested last year ?


Wilfrid Laurier: The matter is under consideration.


Mr. FIELDING.: We will take up the civil government vote of the Department of Inland Revenue, page 10.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood from the hon. leader of the opposition, who is not present now, that he had been notified that we would take up the right hon. Prime Minister's estimates and then the estimates of the hon. Minister of Agriculture. We are prepared to discuss the estimates of the hon. Minister of Agriculture.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) is right. I informed him that we would take up my own, those of the Department of Marine and Fisheries and those of the Department of Agriculture.


George Taylor: We are prepared to go on with the estimates of the Department of Agriculture.


William Stevens Fielding: I thought the Department of Inland Revenue was included in that.


George Taylor: No.


Robert Laird Borden: I would be perfectly willing to go on with any department.


William Stevens Fielding: I understood, but the Prime Minister understood otherwise, that Inland Revenue was included.


Robert Laird Borden: The message that came to me was that the Prime Minister's estimates and the estimates of the Department of Agriculture would be taken up, and I communicated with the whips, who informed the members accordingly.


William Stevens Fielding: And also Marine and Fisheries.


Robert Laird Borden: That may have been lost in the process of transmission to me.
Sir WILFRID LAUR1ER. At all events,
I intended to say that Agriculture and also Marine and Fisheries would be taken up.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not hear anything about Marine and Fisheries, but of course as I say, it may have been lost in transmission.


Wilfrid Laurier: Very well, we will call it six o'clock.
At six o'clock committee took recess. After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 65) respecting certain Patents of Lewis E. Curtis.-Mr. Wm. Ross (Ontario).
Bill (No. 84) for the relief of Robert J. McD. Rodger-on division.-Mr. Grant.
Bill (No. 87) for the relief of James E. Taylor-on division.-Mr. Grant.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Department of Agriculture-salaries, including J. Kilgallin and C. Bourret at $800 each, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $76,332.50.
['Yes, to be followed by those of the Minister of Marine and those of the Minister of Inland Revenue.']
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: There is an increase over last year of about $2,000, which is due chiefly to the statutory increases and to some increases resulting from the changes made in 1 Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
the Civil Service Act last year, requiring that certain clerks at the limit of their classes under the old law should receive increases, the limit of their classes having been raised. It is also due to the fact that Messrs. Kilgallin and Bourret were formerly paid out of the vote for the classification of patents, a work which had been going on for five or six years ; but as that work is now being done along with other work in the department-by these two men, the special vote for it is not taken this year, and they are now put on the regular permanent list of the department. They passed the civil service examination, but as they are past the age for entering the service, the Act requires that they shall be named, and therefore their names appear in this item.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand that last year there were 55 clerks while now there are 59, so that there are four additional ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, two of these are the gentlemen I have just mentioned, and the two others are second-class clerks who have come from the Secretary of State's department in consequence of the transference to my department of records which are to be joined to the archives. As these two clerks are on the list of my department, their names and the appropriations for them will be dropped from the estimates of the Secretary of State's Department.


Andrew B. Ingram: Has the appointment of archivist been made yet ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, Mr. A. G. Doughty, of Quebec, has been appointed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How is it that you start these two clerks at $800 a year ?
Mr. FISHER, That is the salary they were getting as temporary clerks, and the Act provides that they may come in at the same salary.
Mi-. SPROULE. My understanding of the Act is that it provides that a temporary clerk cannot go above a certain figure.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They were not temporary clerks under the Civil Service Act, but under the vote for the classification of patents, to which the Civil Service Act did not apply.


Mr. BLAIN.: When did they pass the Civil Service examination ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Kilgallin entered the service in 1890 as an extra clerk and Mr. Bourret in 1884. Their salaries were raised from time to time until they reached the figure here mentioned, and under the Act passed last session they come into the service at the salaries they were receiving. Mr. Kilgallin passed the Civil Service examination in 1896 and Mr. Bourret in 1889-


Andrew B. Ingram: How many permanent and temporary clerks were there in 1896 and how-many now ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 1 could not off hand^give the numbers. Roughly speaking, the number is about the same of temporary and permanent clerks.


Andrew B. Ingram: The same proportion ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: About the same. I cannot remember the exact number. A few years ago there was considerable reduction, but in consequence of the expansion of the patent office and the work of classification the number was somewhat increased.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the hon. gentleman give the figures before he is through with his estimates ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


Richard Blain: Are there any other clerks in the department who have not passed the civil service examination ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think so. There are none in the inside service who have not either passed the examination or been admitted by special vote. There may be some who were admitted by special vote as in the present instance.
Cbntingencies, including M. Foley at $500, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $18,750.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why do you have this ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: , Foley was a messenger and worked at tile classification of patents. He has not passed any qualifying or preliminary examination, and consequently I have to* insert these words. He is an efficient man who has been doing the work of the department for several years, and it would be unjust to turn him out.


George William Fowler: Have messengers to pass the civil service examination ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They have to pass a preliminary examination.


Richard Blain: When is this sort of pro-riiotion going to cease ? Does the hon. minister think it is fair to the large number of men who are passing civil service examinations every year, that every session there should be a large number of officials legislated into these positions who have not passed any examination ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It would not be fair to take a man from the outside unless he had passed the examination, but when a man has been in the service for years doing good work, it would be unfair to dismiss him when there is still plenty of work to be done for which he is thoroughly competent.


Richard Blain: Then you will never reach the point when a man will be unable to get into a department without passing the civil service examination ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These officials are taken into the different departments from year to year to do work for which no special qualification
is required and no civil service examination necessary. After they have been employed by the government some years and have given every evidence of their efficiency, it would not be fair to dismiss them when there is still plenty of work for them to do, which they are well able to perform. Mr. Foley is too old to pass an examination now, so that even if he did pass it. these words would require to be inserted, because he is beyond the age limit provided in the Act. When he was brought in to do the classification of patent work, he was brought in practically as a labourer. He handled all the old patents, of which there were some 70,000 or 80,000, which had to be taken down and dusted and brought to the men who did the work Of classification and then put them back in their places. He has done that work all along-purely labourer's work, which does not require any special qualification. but only neatness and industry. He will still go on doing that work as it is required, but as we have caught up with the arrears, I have done away with the vote for that classification, and am asking to have Mr. Foley put on permanently as messenger.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How will he stand with regard to superannuation ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He will come in under the new Act.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But these men have not passed any examination.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Foley is the only one who has not passed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And what position do the others occupy with regard to superannuation ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: When these items were passed these gentlemen will contribute under the present Retiring Allowance Act- that is, five per cent of their income will be retained towards the retiring allowance.


George William Fowler: That is the same as with others ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes. But Mr. Foley would not contribute, because he is paid out of contingencies as a temporary employee. He does not become a permanent employee even when this is passed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When will the superannuation period of the others count from from the time they come in ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The retention of five per cent of their salaries begins from the time they become civil servants, and when this goes through they become members of the civil service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would not be retroactive ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. Because they were not members of the civil, service but were employees under different footings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: These men. I understood, were taking down and classifying the patents. What X cannot understand is the justification for incurring such an expense when it was contemplated, and afterwards carried out, to sell these models and sell them for a mere trifle.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman (Hr. Sproule) does not understand the difference between the patent records and the models.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think I do.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The models have nothing to do with the application. When an application is made for a patent, it is referred to the examiner, whose duty it is to find out if the invention has already been patented in Canada or elsewhere. To do this he must consult the records in the patent office. Before this classification work was undertaken, they were in sequence bv numbers and a dozen totally different kinds of patents might succeed one another-generally did. The classification was an arrangement into classes and sub-classes so that the examiner could refer at once to patents of a similar character to one sought by the applicant, instead of having to search through all the patents, as was formerly the case. It was almost impossible, formerly, to carry out the search, but now it is comparatively easy.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I still think it was not the part of wisdom to sell out the models. The classification of patents is as desirable for the future as for the past. The advantage was this-and I speak from some experience-


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Does the hon. gentleman speak of the classification ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am speaking of the classification, and the unwisdom of selling the models. For instance, I send the patent records to an individual and he selects a patent that he thinks would be useful for his purposes. He sends an agent or comes to Ottawa, as has been done within my knowledge, to look at the model and gain such information as he thinks necessary. On the basis* of that information, he may make an arrangement with the patentee with regard to the invention. But now, if such a party comes here to examine a model, he finds that the models have been sold. I understand that the models were sold for $800. I thought at the time it was the greatest piece of folly I had ever heard of, and I think so still.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: For thirteen years models have not been required of those asking for patents. My predecessors in office decreed that models should not be required, but only a drawing and description. This is still the law. A patent is given for eighteen years, and when the models were required the patent only covered fifteen years, so that many of the models were of'inventions the patents on which had expired. The draw-


Sydney Arthur Fisher: ings are the things that we have been classifying, and reference to the drawings is very much easier in such cases as those the hon. gentleman cites of parties coming here to gain information with regard to patented inventions. Before the classification, the party would have to search through the whole patent records or the patents themselves, and it was like searching for a needle in a bundle of hay. I think that less than two years of the models were those of patents that had not expired. For some five years most of the models had been packed away in boxes and not accessible to the public.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They were down in a room on Sparks street.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is a year and a half since they were removed from there, and. at best there were very few in that place-I should think not more than ten per cent of them. Some of them, I found when I came into office, were packed away in boxes in an old building at the mouth of the canal. Many of them were in the roof of the Langevin block, and some in the cellar in a building on Sparks street. We were incurring constant expense renting places in which to store them, and they were of no use, because they were not accessible. And over fifty per cent were models of patents which had expired. Under the circumstances, it seemed not worth while to go on caring for them, and so I took power to dispose of them. The classification, however, has nothing to do with the models, because it is a classification of the drawings, which are all there and arranged in such a way as to be easily accessible.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought the minister said that the work these men were doing was taking down these models and classifying them ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, but taking down the files.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does it take three men to take down the files ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No-one man. But it took three men to do this work of classification. There are over 70,000 patents. These are the actual patents, folded up with the record of tiie application, the drawings, &c. in the file, and put in place. We have tiers and tiers of them in the room in the patent office. These had all to be taken down and examined by the gentleman who was classifying them so as to decide in what class they should go. The drawings were taken out of the file and put in the classes to which they belonged, so that they can be examined by the public or the examiners.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was there no system of classification before ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not the slightest.



Thomas Simpson Sproule: There must be something wrong about that because I know in presenting applications to the department the information given me was that they required a certain length of time to examine the patents already in existence and to see whether the patent applied for infringed upon any rights or if the invention was patentable. If they were thrown together in a haphazard way I do not see how this search could be made in so short a time.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can assure my hon. friend that what I have said was exactly correct. The patents were all there in consecutive order, not in any way classified, and the consecutive numbers of patents had no reference to the thing for which the patent was given. But there were the indices to the pateut record, simply the name and nothing else. The examiners would refer first to that ; they might get a hint from the index or they might not. That was the case when I asked for money to classify the patents ; I made that request on the initiative of the officers of the department who explained the situation to me aud it seemed to me almost as wonderful as to my hon. friend that they had not been classified long ago.


Andrew B. Ingram: Had these officers any special qualifications to classify the patents?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The gentleman who had charge of the classification is Mr. Caron, one of the oldest examiners in the office. These gentlemen were simply his assistants who were under him and assisted him in the routine work.


Andrew B. Ingram: As I understand it, special examiners would be designated to examine special classes of patents of which they would have special knowledge, and therefore would be capable of judging. In classifying all the patents that would be a very serious undertaking for those making applications for patents. For instance it might be that a patent would be granted to some one for an article which had already been patented and which he would find infringed on some other patent with the result that he would be spending money on a useless patent and perhaps become involved in a law suit.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I quite agree and that is why I asked for power to have a classification made. Mr. Caron who is doing the work is an old employee in the department thoroughly competent. He spent some time with the late deputy Mr. Scarth, in working out the system on which they would arrange the classification, and they went to Washington to examine the classification there. They made a special arrangement with the Washington authorities that they would exchange with us their classification for our classification. After a while, however, they ceased to send us their classification and
when I remonstrated, they said they could not continue because they found it too onerous. My hon. friend thinks that this work may not have been done efficiently ; I believe it was done efficiently, but at the same time we have this guarantee that the present examiners are constantly referring to it. Every time a question conies up, they go to the classification and if they should find anything wrongly placed they would recognize that and immediately correct the error. Mr. Kilgallin is the man especially in charge of this and having been engaged in the classification knows exactly where to put his hand on any particular class or subclass. It is he who gets the classes and sub-classes for the examiners, and if any of them found in a class a drawing that was not correctly placed they would immediately refer it to him and he would examine and see where it should be. That is the only check we have, but we have not found that check necessary to any great extent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I right in tinderstanding that it is not necessary to deposit a model in the department and has not been necessary for the past thirteen years ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is not required but we have the right to demand a model.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I had to deposit a model.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend need not have done so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I did not do it for fun.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I said the department had a right to demand one.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood you to say that it is not necessary and has not been for thirteen years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: When an application comes in the applicant does not have to send in a model with his application as he did until thirteen years ago. If, after the application comes in, the examiner finds himself in such difficulties that he requires a model, he can ask the applicant for one, but it is very rarely required.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think the minister is right in respect to that; it is very rarely asked for and in any case the plans and specifications serve all the purposes of a model.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was informed through a firm of solicitors here that a model was required.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is incorrect.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this classification merely an indexing ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, the patents have been divided into large classes and then these classes have been subdivided into smaller

classes. I will give an illustration. We may, for instance, take all the classes of agricultural implements. Then, there might be a class such as drills. There might be another class such as cultivating machinery, or threshing machines. I am merely illustrating. I do not know whether this is the case or not, but this is the kind of thing. These classes have been worked out by the gentleman who is in charge of this classification. He worked the classifications out after carefully examining the Washington classification which was done before ours. Then, he takes the patents in the order of their numbers. For instance, he sees that a patent belongs to such and such a class and to such and such a sub-class. He does not have the patent there but it is represented by a drawing bearing the number of the patent. In ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the drawing is what the examiner wants, when an application for a new patent is made so as to ascertain if there is a patent in force covering the invention in respect of which the application is made. The classification is going on. The drawings as sent in originally were unsatisfactory, many of them being old and a great many of them not very correct. And when the classifications were prepared two cardboard drawings-drawings on stiff cardboards of a particular shape and size-were put into the class very much like the card index system which a great many people are familiar with in library work.


Richard Blain: How many years ago did this classification commence, and what amount of money has been expended on it ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In 1899 the work was commenced.


Richard Blain: How much has been expended to date ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would have to look back into the estimates. One year $5,000 was spent, another year $4,000 and another year $3,000


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that it is completed now ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is completed up to date. We have about 5,000 or 6,000 applications a year and these have to be classified as they come in.


Richard Blain: The classification will go on ?


Mr. FISHER  .@: Yes, this is what Mr. Kil-gallin has on hand.


Mr. HACKETT.: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture if this amount is required altogether for the classification of these patents or if any part of it will be used for the benefit of the farmer ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is the inside service of the department. A good deal of the work that is done for the benefit of the Mr. FISHER.
farmer is done by the outside service. The experimental farms do not come under this vote at all, the commissioner of agriculture and dairying does not come under this, the veterinary branch does not come under this, the quarantine branch does not come under this. This is simply for the inside service of the department which has to deal with patents trade marks, copyright, archives, statistics and so on.


Edward Hackett: A few days ago I asked the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson) a question in regard to assisting the farmers in their operations in this country as follows :


RAILWAY FARES OF AGRICULTURAL DELEGATES.
Mr. HACKETT asked :: 1.	Is the intention of the government to reduce railway rates to a nominal figure, or admit of free passes, for agricultural delegates over public railways, in accordance with the resolution passed at the annual convention of the Prince Edward Island farmers ?
2.	What is the lowest existant rate paid by delegates attending such conventions, and the fares, when formally engaged in promoting the public interests, and thus increasing railway traffic ?
3.	Should not those gentlemen giving their time and brains to the advancement of the country, be provided with free transportation ?
The hon. Minister of Railways of Canals, whom I do not see in his place this evening, made this reply :


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals).: I cannot very well understand whether this question relates to railways generally or merely to the government railway. I may say further that the deputy minister informs me that no trace of any such resolution as that referred to in the first question can be found in the department. The second question relates to special rates on railways generally throughout Canada. That information is not in the department. The third question involves the free transportation on the government railw-ays of all those who devote their time and brains to the advancement of the country. Our rolling stock might not he sufficient to convey all of these.
I looked upon it that the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals was treating the farmers of this country in a very light way. When I said public railways I meant government railways. The public railway is a railway owned by the government. A corporation railway is a railway owned by a company. I would have supposed that that hon. gentleman would have given me an answer more in accordance with the question.


Peter Macdonald: I am afraid I must draw the attention of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) to the fact that this is not relevant to the question under discussion. I think the hon. gentleman might bring that up at some future time when

another point will come up, but I think it will be a waste of time to discuss that question at the present time. X hope the hon. gentleman will look upon it in that way and allow it to stand until an opportunity presents itself to again bring the matter up. The danger of taking up a question that is outside of the question being considered is that the discussion may take a wide range and it is very difficult to keep it down to the question under consideration. I would ask the hon. gentleman to defer the discussion of this question until the proper time.


Edward Hackett: I will obey your orders, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to bring to the notice of this committee in connection with these contingencies the fact that something should be done for the farmers of the country more than has been done of late. I was led to ask this question because of a letter appearing in the ' Maritime Farmer,' a paper published in Sussex, N.B. This is strictly in connection with the subject of contingencies in regard to the farmers of this country. My question was based on the following extract. Am I in order, Mr. Chairman V


Peter Macdonald: I am afriad the hon. gentleman is wandering outside of the item of contingencies in reference to this special department, but I am satisfied that the hon. gentleman will have opportunities in abundance to bring up the question and discuss it fully in perfect order. I would ask him to allow this item to pass and probably in a little while we will come to an item in which he can discuss it in order and thus facilitate the business at the present time.


Edward Hackett: I submit to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but at the same time I desire to ask what part of the expenditures on these contingencies is for the farmers of the country and I desire also to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture to use his influence with the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals in the endeavour to persuade him to do something in connection with bettering the condition of the farmers. It will only tafce a moment for me to read this letter of the Rev. Alfred Edward Burke writing to the editor of this paper, the ' Maritime Farmer.' He says :
We contended at the late convention, with a unanimous House behind us, that special treatment would have to he meted out to the agricultural conventions of the country, which are more effectually doing the work of national development than all the other innumerable divisions of the body politic. Just imagine you and me and so many others giving our time, brain and best effort to the furtherance of these farming ends on which the community depends, and the railroads over which we are formally engaged in making traffic, treating us and our conventions in the same calculating way as any other assembly of men convened for
purely personal or corporate concerns ! We have to pay the same fares, subscribe to the same restricting conditions as these, and then put our hands into our pockets again and discharge the hotel bills and other incidentals to travel, while we are on purely public business. This is manifestly unfair and unjust and must stop. We contend that the cost of travel by public roads to conventions such as ours should never have been more than merely nominal and now should be wiped out altogether in the best interests of the community.
Dealing with officials, we are met with the precedent bugaboo, the precedent borrowed from private corporations ; evidently, we must bring our demands to the doors of parliament. Personally, we can say that on many occasions corporate roads have not only furnished us with free transportation but also paid travelling expenses and compensated to some extent at least for time and effort expended in work -which only indirectly affected them, whilst the country received population and trade ; now the people's own roads take our time and effort and tax us as highly as any other for the travelling we are compelled to do in the general interest; indeed specially narrow considerations have of late entered into the local conduct of thedej matters which, for the sake of common decency must speedily be remedied. It were indeed time that the people knew their rights in these matters ; and, knowing, dare defend. Our association in common with others of a like nature, then, is asking for special treatment and we will not let up either until it is conceded.


Peter Macdonald: I must insist that this discussion shall cease now.


Edward Hackett: By your favour. Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the Minister of Agriculture if the farmers of this country should not have a share of these contingencies ?


Peter Macdonald: I would not permit the Minister of Agriculture to answer, because it would be out of order.


Mr. LANCASTER.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackettl is entitled to ask the minister about this $18,200 for contingencies.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


George William Fowler: The Minister of Agriculture could answer the hon. member for Prince (Mr. Hackett) under the head of ' sundries. '


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no sundries for that purpose.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think. Mr. Chairman, that it is only fair that you should allow the Minister of Agriculture to answer a simple question. You seem to have more control over him than his colleagues have.


Edward Hackett: I find no fault with Mr. Foley's salary. If the minister considers him a good man and worthy of the salary I don't object. I know the minister has a good staff of officers, as I said in this parliament some years ago. Here we have a vote for sundries, and I ask the minister if he could not take out of it a certain sum to meet the

[DOT]expense of these farmers who assemble in conventions, with the object of advancing the trade and prosperity of the country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These sundries are for such things as postage, telegrams, and travelling expenses of officers. Notwithstanding the increase of the general work we have been struggling to keep within this sum which is the same as has been voted for many years. I would only he too glad to do something to bring farmers to agricultural gatherings, and we already do a great deal in this direction, but I fear we cannot undertake such a scheme as the hon. gentleman (ilr. Hackett) proposes.
Mr. SPROUT,E. This vote is to pay the expenses of high salaried officials, and it seems to me you ought to be able to do something to reduce the expenses of the farmers who travel to these conventions in the general interest of the public.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: AVe do that in some other ways.


Richard Blain: AVliy do you want three more third-class clerks ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Under theAet of last year we got power to make temporary clerks permanent, and I wish to avail of it to do something for deserving clerks.
Archives, $12,000.


George William Fowler: Have you appointed an archivist, and who is he ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If I can speak confidentially to my hon. friend, I may say that I have made a recommendation, but my deputy reminds me that we have received no word from the Privy Council that the appointment has been made.


George William Fowler: I understand that some time ago a gentleman in Quebec was appointed, and he objected on the ground that the salary was too large.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.


George William Fowler: Or, was not large enough; is he the same man ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have you a building set apart for the purpose ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No ; the archives office is in the Langevin block.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you keep adding to it all the time ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes ; there is constant work going on in Paris and London, copying documents' relating to the history of Canada. AA'e also make occasional purchases of documents which are brought to our attention connected with the history and records of the country.


Andrew B. Ingram: AArill the minister give us an idea of the number of places to which Mr. HACKETT.
the report of the archivist is sent ? Is it sent to the high schools, for instance ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. The number of copies issued has not been increased.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman's attention was called two years ago to the propriety of sending copies to our high schools, lias he done anything in that direction ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I confess that, if that is the case, the matter has escaped my memory.


David Henderson: Has the hon. minister a regular mailing list for the report ? I had a letter recently from a medical man asking me to endeavour to have his name put on the mailing list. If the minister has such a list, perhaps he will be kind enough to put this gentleman's name on If I give it to him ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is a list, and I shad be only too glad to add to it the name of the hon. gentleman's friend. We have never refused to put on the list the name of any one who has shown enough interest in it to ask.


George William Fowler: Does this vote pay the salaries of any of the officers ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say that this vote was increased last session, when I explained to the House that on the death of the late Dr. Brymner, who had been archivist for many years, it was thought by the government best to increase the office and give increased duties to the archivist. There has been in the Secretary of State's office a keeper of records, with two clerks under him. There are in the different departments a large number of papers and documents relating to the history of the country, to titles, and to various other things in connection with public affairs. These are scattered in a great number of different places, some not in Ottawa at all. I had thought for a long time, and the government agreed with me, that all these documents ought to be collected into one place, classified and catalogued, and put in charge of some one person who would be responsible for their safekeeping, so that they would be available to persons who wished to examine them. The death of Dr. Brymner was thought to be a suitable occasion for doing this, and It is to my regret that there has been a delay in consequence of our not being able to secure the services of such a man as I thought competent for the work. I am glad to say that 1 have now secured the services of such a man, and I hope that in a few days Air. Doughty will be able to take charge of the office and proceed with the work. That will undoubtedly involve a very considerable addition to the vote for the archives. This item was increased last session by $3,000 with that view ; but as we have not yet undertaken that work to any extent, the expenditure does not reach anywhere near $12,000, so that a large part of the vote will lapse at the end of the present fiscal year.

Under civil government we have the salary of the archivist as chief clerk ; A. Duff at $1,050 ; a binder, who binds the documents, at $804 ; Miss McCoy, stitcher, at $300 ; a Miss M. Casey, a clerk, at $600. We devote $4,000 a year to copying in London and Paris ; and during the past year we had a balance of $6,296, the great bulk of which will not be expended in the current fiscal year, but a part of which has been expended for papers and documents. Quite recently, in consequence of the lamented death of the late Senator Masson and the auction of a portion of his property, there was put up for sale at public competition a number of most interesting and valuable papers connected with the early history of this country I knew something of them, and I had them carefully investigated by experts ; and, notwithstanding pretty keen competition from Americans and others, we were able to secure all the documents that we thought of interest to Canada at a reasonable price, though nowhere near the historical value of the documents. We spent at the public auction about $500 ; but we have also made an arrangement with the family for getting a large number of other documents which were not put up at auction, for about $500 more. So that for $1,000 we have secured for the archives some most valuable papers.


Richard Blain: I understand that the minister has in Prance some person copying important documents. When will that work be completed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think it will ever be completed. There is an enormous mass of documents in France, in La Bibliotheque Nationale, which relate to the history of Canada. Only a small portion have been copied up to the present. We devote a certain sum every year, some $4,000, and I am not sure how much goes to Paris and how much to London.


Richard Blain: How many officials are engaged ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: None. There are only what are called official copyists, people authorized by the authorities to make copies in the library, and who are paid by the folio.


Richard Blain: How many ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Sometimes one, sometimes three or four, according to circumstances. In London, I think, six are employed all t the time. There is a Mr. Tantet, who is ' officially connected with the library at Paris, who gets the work done at so much a folio. We do not know the people who do it.


Richard Blain: He is our special official over there ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, he is not our official, but an official of the library. I was under the impression that he got a small honorarium for looking after this work, but I find that he charges nothing and that everything we pay is paid out by him to the copyists. The accounts are sent to the High Commissioner's office and dealt with there. [DOT] We transmit $4,000 a year to the High Commissioner to spend in London and Paris on this work.


George William Fowler: The work is very valuable, and I would not begrudge any expense in connection with it. I am glad to know that the hon. gentleman is having copies made of documents relating to the early history of this country. Those documents are yearly growing scarcer and are liable to destruction by fire. Consequently they should be gathered up and preserved by the nation in a fireproof building. The original documents are almost priceless, and I trust that they are stored where they are absolutely safe.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These documents are stored in the Langevin block, which, though not absolutely fireproof, is more nearly so than any other public building in Ottawa.


George William Fowler: You should take a vote for a new building.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may do so before the end of the session. I have been waiting until the plans for the national museum and art gallery are completed. In that building there will be fireproof accommodation for the records and archives. I am seriou'sly considering also whether it would not be well, as that building cannot possibly be completed in less than two. or three years, if begun at once, to devote a sum of money for the purpose of erecting a small building absolutely fireproof, in which we might store these valuable documents, pending the completion of the national museum, and I may ask a vote for that purpose this session.


George William Fowler: What are the qualifications of the gentleman who has been appointed Dominion Archivist ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The gentleman appointed is Mr. A. G. Doughty, who is well known among students of our history, as having published one of the most important works on that subject, published in late years.


George William Fowler: In collaboration with somebody ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, with Mr. Geo. Par-malee, secretary of the Education Department, but I think I may, without any disparagement to Mr. Parmalee, say that Mr. Doughty himself is the one who principally inspired that work. He is a graduate of Oxford University and consequently holds the highest credentials as an educated man. He has been in this country some seventeen or eighteen years and has been in the employ of the Quebec government as assistant librarian of the parliamentary library at Quebec. He has been engaged in historical researches in all his spare time during that period. He has

written many articles on various historical _ subjects. He has issued one or two other books on historical matters and is an enthusiast in this work. I first became acquainted with him on a visit he made here to investigate our archives. He was able to discover a number of papers in the different departments which no one in Ottawa apparently knew the existence of. He found references to them in other documents and ferreted them out. He has also a very extensive correspondence with the custodians of historical documents in the various continental cities, in London, and all over England. He has made researches in a great many well-known libraries in private houses in England, and has correspondence with the owners of these and with writers on kindred subjects. I have no hesitation in saying that Mr. Doughty stands out as probably the most qualified man for this position in the Dominion.


George William Fowler: I have seen the work to which the hon. Minister refers. While it may be very valuable as a book of reference, it can scarcely be commended for its literary style. But we have in our province a gentleman quite as well qualified for that position, a native born Canadian, which I trust will not be a disqualification. He is a historian who has published many valuable histories, notably the war of 1812. I allude to Dr. James Hannay, a man of wide reading and knowledge, a man in every way splendidly qualified for this position. So it is not necessary for the minister to take a man outside of the native born for this office. As I say, I have nothing to say disparaging of Mr. Doughty. I read his book and thought it valuable. But I think that the claims of Dr. Hannay, as a native born Canadian, a historian of eminence, and historian of Canada, were far greater than those of Mr. Doughty, and I am very sorry the hon. minister did not appoint him. I do not speak in this way because Dr. Hannay is on my side in politics, for he is not. If he were, that would be a still greater qualification. But I speak this in simple justice to a man who has made an international reputation for himself as a historian of Canada. I think it unfortunate that he was not appointed to this important position. For, I regard it as a very important position indeed, and I think it would be more becoming that the holder of that position should not be a mere clerk in any department, but that the service of which he is the head should be a sub-department by itself.


Mr. CLARE.: I notice that some of the expenditures for newspapers seem large. Is more than one copy of some newspapers taken ? I find that the Toronto ' Globe ' received $8 while the ' Mail and Empire ' received $4.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certain old established newspapers of Canada are deposited in the Mr. FISHER.
archives regularly, and have been since the first establishment of the office. The files of these are kept up without reference to newspapers or anything else.


George Adam Clare: I see that the St. John 'Telegraph ' received $16.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My officer informs me that sometimes a bill comes in for several years' subscription at once. That seems to have happened in the case referred to. Only one copy is taken.


Richard Blain: A Mr. Richard was employed in Paris in connection with the copying of documents. What has become of him ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He came back about seven or eight months ago, and I regret to say that, about a month or six weeks ago, he died.	.
Patent Record, ?17,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is an increase here of $5,000. How is that accounted for ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In the first place there is an increase in the number of patents, and in the second place there has been an increase in the charges of the Printing Bureau. The whole of this money is paid, to the Printing Bureau for printing the ' Record.'


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the increase in the number of patents ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I might first explain that this increase of $5,000 has not occurred suddenly this year ? For last year I asked for $12,000, but I shall be obliged to ask for a supplementary vote of $5,000. The estimate of $17,000 now under discussion is based upon the actual expenditure of last year. Last year there were 5,912 applications for patents, 5,673 patents were issued and 432 certificates, or a total of 6,105 documents issued which have to be recorded. In addition, there is an increase in the trade marks and designs, which are also published in the ' Patent Record,' and all the issues of copyright also. These add to the number of pages in the ' Patent Record ' and ' so increase the cost. There is also an increase in the scale of charges in the Printing Bureau.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman has not told us what the increase in the issue of patents for last year was.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: For the year ending 31st December last, there were 6,105 and for the year before 4,901, an increase for last year of 1.204.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does this mean that an increased number of the ' Patent Record ' is circulated ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. The number printed is 1,200 copies a mouth. The distribution generally was as follows : Free libraries in

Great Britain, 61 ; foreign free-libraries, 63 : departmental list, Ottawa, 29 ; members of parliament. 213 ; senators. 77 ; free libraries in Canada, 84 ; free libraries in United States, 42 ; paid subscribers. 191-a total of 760 disposed of last year. We are constantly having demands for copies of tlie ' Patent Record ' of years back.


Andrew B. Ingram: The bound volumes ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They are fastened together, but not bound. We charge $2 a year.


Richard Blain: It is a monthly production ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.
Mi1. BLAIN. How near up-to-date is it kept ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The number for February has been issued.


Andrew B. Ingram: Are there any bound volumes of the ' Patent Record ' in the department ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We keep our own file bound.


Andrew B. Ingram: But none in circulation in that form ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, they are simply in paper form.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the 'Patent Record' of assistance in the classification of the patents that the hon. gentleman has adopted in order to make the work of reference more easy.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The record is published in consecutive numbers. It is published every month and includes only the patents that were granted in the month.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But at the end of the year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have not undertaken to classify them in the record ; they are classified in the office.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me that if it w'ere classified in the office it would not be a very expensive matter to classify them in the record.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is an index to the annual volume but of course the annual volume is simply the monthly issues bound together. We do not undertake to do anything except to make an index.


Andrew B. Ingram: In the United States they have the bound volume and the index following consecutively.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Just the index of each volume. We have that too.


Andrew B. Ingram: It would really amount to twelve monthly records.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Twelve monthly records and at the end the index to the twelve
months. At the end of the year the index is sent forward to subscribers with the last monthly record, but of course they have to bind the volumes themselves.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the monthly issue would not it be a very easy matter to arrange the patents under the various classes? Such an arrangement would be quite as valuable to the public as to the department, if not more so.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think it would be possible to add to the description of each patent a statement of what class and sub-class it is placed in but to arrange the patents in classes at the end of the year would be simply to print the whole record.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You could put in the index at the en'd of the year what class each patent was placed in.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will see if that cannot be done.
Collection and compilation of Criminal Statistics, $2,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The increase here is due partly to an apparent increase in crime ; that is, an increased number of cases in the returns sent in, but it is also due partly to the increased number of returns sent in. There is an increase in the organized territories and in the number of judicial officers. These returns are made by the clerks of the courts all over the country. By the statute they are required to send in their returns. They get a dollar for the return whether it contains no cases or fifty eases, and then they are allowed five cents for each indicated case, and two cents for each summary conviction. That is fixed by1 statute,
I have no control over that.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice you have three or four officers in different cou|nties sending in these returns.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: According to the number of courts. Wherever there is a clerk of the court the returns are sent in.


Andrew B. Ingram: Or a police magistrate.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I suppose so. The increase is due to the establishment of more courts and also apparently to tlie increased number of offences reported.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Where are these courts being increased ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In what were the unorganized districts but are now organized. Some are in the Northwest Territories, some in the new parts of Ontario and perhaps some in the new parts of Quebec.


George William Fowler: Do you get a summary conviction by magistrates ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, where there is an increase ill the number of courts or in magistrates' work.


George Adam Clare: I see that the amount of the vote was not all used last year, and that still you are asking for an increase this year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That was the year before, but I am informed this year that, although we asked for the same amount as for the year before, this will not be enough, and that we wiil have to ask for a supplementary vote.
Statistical Year-book. $6,000.


George Adam Clare: This is a large increase.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, I am asking for $1,000 more.
Mr. JABEiL ROBINSON. I want to congratulate the hon. Minister of Agriculture upon adding $1,000 to the vote for the Statistical Year-book, because I think this is one of the most valuable publications issued by the government, and I only hope that the hon. minister will have that book placed in the hands of all the school teachers. They think a great deal of it, and I hope they will be able to get it.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I sympathize with my hon. friend (Mr. Robinson), but I hardly think we can undertake to place it in the hands of all the teachers. That would be a pretty large contract, and we have not made provision for it.


Mr. JABEIL ROBINSON.: I understand that these books cost about fifty cents each. X do not think the money could be better expended than in supplying this information to the teachers. If the teachers get it the children will get it.


Mr. DANIEL.: To whom is the Statistical Year-book sent ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is a permanent list In the department of institutions to which it is sent. Eight hundred and forty-seven copies are sent to newspapers, 335 to libraries, not including libraries which are on the permanent list, 147 to boards of trade, 126 to electrical and steam railway companies and offices, 100 to city governments, mayors, clerks, &c.,	190 to banks, 36
to sheriffs, 117 to Supreme Court and other judges, 36 to immigration and commercial agents of the government, 75 to Dominion executive and private secretaries, 02 to provincial executives and 164 to foreign consuls in Canada. These are evidently some they have asked for to be sent off. To the High Commissioner in England, for distribution, 550 copies are sent : British ambassadors and consuls, 105 copies. To those on the permanent list, that is various institutions, mechanics' institutes and others, we send 491 copies of the Yearbook without any demand or request ; to senators, 61 copies ; telephone companies. 44 ; insurance companies, 100 ; deputy ministers, 120 ; members of parliament, 5 copies each, one bound and four in paper, 790 in all ; Minister of Agriculture's office, for dis-Mr. FISHER.
tribution, 110. I may say that this is due to requests that come in personally to me, I give an order to the office to send them. I have always sent the Year-book to anybody who asks for it. Then there is the library of parliament, 50 ; last year, Japan exhibition, 108 ; various members of the clergy, 42 ; chambers of commerce in Australia, 12 : and to various persons whose names are not on the permanent list, 1,193. Those are the people who wrote in and asked for it. That is the English distribution.


Jabel Robinson: Were the ones which wTere sent to Japan printed in the Japanese language ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, they were not. They are not printed in that language or any other foreign language. The French edition was distributed as follows : Senators and members, 490 : legislative council, 18 ; legislative assembly, 63 ; judges, 34 ; newspapers. 70 : libraries, 37 ; council of agriculture of Quebec, 6 ; clergy, convents, colleges and chambers of commerce, &c., 110 ; barristers, notaries and other applicants, 582 ; total, 1,410. Last year 6,000 copies were printed in English and 1,500 printed in French.


Jabel Robinson: I would like to have the hon. Minister of Agriculture put the high school teachers in the province of Ontario, at any rate, on the list, and I think it would be well that the high school teachers throughout the Dominion should also receive a copy if it is possible.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would be very glad to try and find out how7 many there are of such teachers, and if it is possible to supply them with this book I will be very glad to do so.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: If the work is going to be authentic, I w7ould back up what my hon. friend from West Elgin (Mr. Robinson) says, but I think I have a very vivid recollection that a year or two ago. when my hon. friend the leader of the opposition was speaking on the budget and quoting from this Year-book in support of his contention, he w7as actually told by the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce that the figures in the Year-book were absolutely incorrect. If we are going to discuss budgets and other important matters that are necessary to be discussed in this House, and which clearly should be discussed by the people and their representatives, I think we should have a different system of getting out this Year-book, a more accurate system, so that it wall not be said again by the oldest minister of the Crown in the House, one who is certainly supposed to be an authority on trade and commerce, and wdio used to have the name of being a very great financier, that the figures in the Year-book are absolutely incorrect. I would urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture to see that the Year-book is more carefully gotten up than it appears to have been in the past, so that we will not have that sort of thing said in this House,

and so that we will have a Year-book which is accurate. It is said that this Year-book should be disseminated more freely. I am not in favour of disseminating it at all, because I do not want to send untrue and incorrect information through the country, taking the statement of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce for that. I would rather that the people had no Yearbook at all than the one which the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce says contains figures which are incorrect.


George Adam Clare: Was the statement of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce wrong or were the figures wrong ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I know that the statement of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce was correct. The figures were incorrect in the Year-book.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I think we should have some assurance from the hon. Minister of Agriculture that that state of affairs is not going to continue ; otherwise, I would move to strike this item out altogether. We do not want to waste the money of the country by paying it out to misinform the people in regard to public affairs.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It will be my utmost endeavour to see that the figures in the Yearbook are correct.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman is speaking generally, I understand. This happened to be an error that crept in.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The figure referred to by my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce was incorrect.


Andrew B. Ingram: Outside of that the book was fairly correct ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not examined it in detail. There have been other occasions upon which discrepancies and inaccuracies have crept in.


Andrew B. Ingram: Are we to understand that the book is fairly correct ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would not allow it to be issued unless it were fairly correct. I have had inaccuracies brought to my attention in different years, and the matter the hon. gentleman referred to was inaccurate.


Richard Blain: The Minister of Trade and Commerce, referring to the Statistical Yearbook said :
I do not suppose that many members of this House are likely to make statements, and quote figures from a document such as the Statistical Year-hook.
And he went on to leave the impression that the figures contained in the Year-book were incorrect, and were not such as the members of this House could rely on. It is only fair that the minister should say to the House that the figures are correct with the exception of such unintentional errors 87


DEVISED
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as do creep into all public documents. The general impression in the country is, that the Statistical Year-book is accurate, and everybody was surprised to hear the Minister of Trade and Commerce cast such a reflection on this important document.
James Clancy: The Minister of Agriculture is not justified in saying that the figures in dispute were incorrect in the Statistical Year-book. There was a contention between the hon. member for Pictou and the Min- * ister of Trade and Commerce, and both claimed the victory. It is not fair for the Minister of Agriculture to say, that one of his chief officers was all wrong in the case, and that the Minister of Trade and Commerce was all right. I am not prepared to say whether the figures were correct or incorrect, and unless the Minister of Agriculture has studied the matter carefully, he is , not warranted in saying that the figures were incorrect.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman says there was a controversy in which each thought he came off the better ; I thought the Minister of Trade and Commerce came off the better.


James Clancy: And on that, you based the statement that the statistican was wrong.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think so.


James Clancy: Then we are to understand that the Minister of Agriculture, after listening to the discussion, and without any bias, of course( in favour of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, came to the conclusion without studying the matter for himself, that one of his chief officers was all wrong. The explanation will let the country know that the Minister of Agriculture knows nothing at all about it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When we take up a blue-book we expect to find it accurate. It is a humiliating admission for a minister to make, that any document got up under his authority is unreliable. If the information is not accurate, the money is simply wasted.
The minister should verify those documents before he allows them to be issued.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I shall try to do-so.


George Adam Clare: Are the statistics given in the Year-book brought down to the 30th of June ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The information given in the Year-book is taken from the annual reports of the different departments, and it is brought down to various dates. For instance the customs figures are to the 30th of June, and the agricultural figures are to the 1st of November.


George Adam Clare: The information we get in it is almost a year old.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


George Adam Clare: We have monthly returns from the Customs Department and conse-


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quently the information in the Year-book is almost useless.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: What is this increase of $1,000 for ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I was asked in the House last year to increase the edition, and the increased appropriation is for that purpose.


Andrew B. Ingram: Could not the figures in the Statistical Year-book be given, up to a uniform date V


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In the Department of Agriculture, for instance, the exports of cattle are given up to the close of navigation, and these figures are incorporated in the Yearbook. When the Statistical Year-book is made up, it takes these figures in that form ; but it deals with the figures connected with the trade and navigation or trade and commerce reports to the end of the fiscal year.


Richard Blain: Does the Year-book contain a copy of the customs tariff of Canada ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, the Statistical Yearbook is not intended to contain copies of such things. It is a compilation of tables made up from the different reports, and I do not think it would be advisable as a general rule to publish the same thing over and over.


Richard Blain: There is a good deal of repetition in it, such as the returns of different years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is for purposes of comparison.


Richard Blain: I think it might very properly contain the Canadian customs tariff and also the United States customs tariff. These are documents to which the average business man refers very frequently, and I think it would be a great convenience to have them both published in this book.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will discuss that with the statistician.


James Clancy: Would it not be possible to have the statistical Year-book correspond with the fiscal year ? The tables published in it are likely to be quite misleading when compared with other reports if they do not correspond with the reports ending the 30th Jyme.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman's suggestion is a good one, and I will see if it can be arranged. No doubt confusion has sometimes arisen from quotations from the Year-book and quotations from the blue book failing to agree.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood the minister to say that in the report of the Department of Agriculture the exports of cattle were given up to the 1st of November in each year. If so, a person reading it and the table in the Year-book would be badly mixed, because the table in the Year-book gives the exports to the end of the 30th of June.


George Adam Clare: 


John Waterhouse Daniel: I would like to ask whether the government have under their control any system of obtaining the vital statistics of the country-the births, marriages and deaths. While the subject of vital and all other statistics is assigned by the British North America Act to the Dominion of Canada, some of the provinces do attempt to obtain these statistics ; but having no authority by law to do so, they cannot impose any legal penalties upon the people who refuse to give statistics of that kind. I know what I am speaking about, because very lately in my own province an attempt was made to coerce physicians into reporting the births which occurred in their practice. I think the only way these statistics can be obtained in a reliable form is by the Department of Agriculture instituting some system of collecting them. I would like to have the opinion of the minister on that subject, and an expression of the intention of the government with regard to it. I think it is extremely important that we should have vital statistics as well as other statistics. It is a matter which belongs exclusively to the parliament of Canada and does not belong to the various provinces of Canada. Although some of the provinces are obtaining statistics, they cannot be accepted as reliable, because the province have not the power to enforce any law they may have on the subject.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They do enforce a Registration Act, under which they demand the registration of births, deaths and marriages, and impose a penalty for neglect to register.


John Waterhouse Daniel: There was a penalty imposed under a similar Act in my own province, but when the parties who had the administering of the law attempted to collect the penalty, they found that they were immediately out of court, and could not do it.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am rather surprised at the information which the hon. gentleman has given the committee. I thought this question of vital statistics was referred to the provincial authorities. I know that some of the provinces collect them. We find on page 642 the births, deaths and marriages in Canada, and we find that these are not given in some of the provinces because no register of these is kept there. That does not necessarily prove that there is not legal power in the provincial legislatures to pass laws on these subjects. There is no doubt that the collection of statistics is within the purview of the parliament of Canada and the power for that purpose is granted the Department of Agriculture. It would be quite within my rights as minister to make arrangements for the collection of statistics of that kind. I believe that a very considerable enlargement of the statistical work of my department would be in the public in-

terest. It is a matter to which I have given some consideration. We have censuses every ten years in which we get all the information on these matters, but between the census we have apparently little direct information of this hind.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In Ontario we havq_re-gistration offices in which marriages, deaths and births must be registered. That is as far as the province can go, but as regards the collection of statistics, that belongs to the federal parliament.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In the province of Quebec we have a similar registration law and besides vital statistics are collected by the Bureau of Health under the charge of Dr. Da Chappelle. This bureau collects very valuable statistics.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We have the same in Ontario.


John Waterhouse Daniel: 
Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is devoted to the salaries of the staff under the statistician. It is practically for part of the staff employed on the statistical year-book. The vote for that book goes to the Printing Bureau and this is to pay some of the staff who are engaged in its composition. A part of the staff are regular clerks on the civil list, and a part are paid out of this sum. They are R. E. Watts, $900 ; J. R. Monroe, $800 ; C. Ross. $700 ; J. C. H. Pelletier, $550; making a total of $2,950. The other $250 may or may not be expended, according to circumstances, in any slight extra work required.
87}
Mr. BLA1N. Do these officials go outside of the blue books for their information 7


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. Sometimes a request is sent in to the statistician for information on some particular subject. He frequently prepares such information and these men would help to prepare it.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The expenditure last year on the Year-book was $4,555 and on general statistics, $2,453 or a total of $6,895. The estimate this year is $9,200, or an increase of thirty per cent.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is entirely paid to the Printing Bureau for turning out the book. If we get more copies, we have to pay more, and I am asking for an increase this year for the purpose of getting more. As to this item for general statistics, it is an item that has been there ever since I took office. Sometimes it is not all spent and sometimes it is. It goes to pay the salaries of men who are practically permanent who have been in the service ever since I became minister.


George Adam Clare: This is a considerable increase over the expenditure of last year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Watts, who was employed on the census during the compilation of the census, now returns to this staff.


George Adam Clare: Did not the minister need him on the statistical staff while the census was being compiled? I suppose he will be useful when another census comes on.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He was on the staff when the previous census was prepared.


Andrew B. Ingram: He has been in the department with Mr. Johnson for many years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, since 1881.
Aid to agricultural societies, $7,000.


Edward Hackett: How is this managed 7


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is spent entirely in the Northwest Territories. In that part of the country, the Dominion takes the place, to a considerable extent, of the provincial government. This sum has appeared in the estimates for twelve or fifteen years. The money is divided among the agricultural societies in the Northwest Territories pro rata according to their membership. Each society sends in a list of its members, and this $7,000 is divided pro rata.


George Adam Clare: How many societies were there last year 7


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Sixteen.


George Adam Clare: There were twenty the year before.


Edward Hackett: Would the hon. minister please name the societies 7


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Fairmede, Lome, Lethbridge, Lacombe, Maple Creek, Moose Moun-

tain, Medicine Hat, Moosomin, Regina, Rosthern and Hague, Sterling, South Edmonton, Centre Assiniboia, Inter-Western Pacific, Yorkton, and Edmonton Industrial Exposition Association.


George Adam Clare: How is it that $203 was paid out to the Macleod District Association the year before last, and none last year ? Is there no society there ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They have disbanded or have been joined to some other society. Every society that sends in its returns gets its share, but if a society does not comply with this rule it gets nothing.


Richard Blain: Why is the amount stationary year after year ? Can the minister tell us what was the membership of these societies ten years ago, say, and last year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The amount is fixed at $7,000, and it is distributed among the societies. If there is a large aggregate membership so much, less is paid per member. I have not the details here to make a comparison of the membership in previous years and last year. I may say that until two or three years ago these societies made their returns to the department direct, but, since then the returns have been made to the Territorial Department of Agriculture, and have been forwarded by them to us, they, dealing with the organization of these societies under an ordinance of the territorial government.


Richard Blain: The number of societies seems to be fewer last year than the year before. Can the minister explain that ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The territorial government have been discouraging the formation of district agricultural societies, trying to get them to amalgamate, so that there might not be so many rival organizations.


Andrew B. Ingram: It would be interesting to know the membership of these sixteen societies of last .year and the twenty societies of the year before.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not the figures at hand.


Andrew B. Ingram: I suppose the figures are in the department. Would the hon. minister kindly make a note of it and be prepared to give details on a future occasion ?


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: Is any aid given to the different agricultural societies in the provinces ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.
Experimental farms, $100,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will not ask the committee to take up this vote to-night. The report of the Experimental Farm has not been laid upon the table. It has been in the hands of the printers for months, and I am told that it will be ready in a few days. I will not ask>
that the vote be Mr. FISHER.
gone on with until the report is before the House. But perhaps the committee would consider the next item :
Printing and distribution of reports and bulletins of farms, $7,000.
This is a subsidiary item to the farm vote. If hon. gentlemen agree, this item can be passed, but with the understanding that any question arising out of it can be discussed, if necessary, on the farm vote.


Andrew B. Ingram: This is a very important item, and one on which there will be a considerable discussion, by reason of certain things that have occurred this year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) objects to passing the item, I will not pass it. But, I thought we might pass the item and so dispose of it, with the full understanding that, on the farm vote, if any hon. gentleman wishes to bring up any question in relation to the bulletins, it could be discussed then.


Andrew B. Ingram: I only draw the minister's attention to the fact that some gentlemeu desire to speak on this item who are not here this evening.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Well, if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) prefers, we will not pass the item.
Toward compiling historical data with regard to the Acadian families in Canada, $1,400.


George Adam Clare: Would the hon. minister explain why this work is not done in connection with the archives ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is an entirely different thing. It has been a special vote for a number of years back, similar to a vote taken a few years ago for a similar compilation in reference to the names of French Canadians in Quebec. This is somewhat kindred in nature to the archives vote, but the work is done in a special way by a special officer appointed for that purpose and is not intended to be a permanent work. If it had been intended to be a permanent vote it should be under the archives, but it is a temporary expenditure that will probably only go on for a couple of years.


George Adam Clare: It seems to me permanent enough and to have gone on for some years.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Three or four years.


John Waterhouse Daniel: What is the object of this work ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is the result of a request on the part of the Acadians that the records of their families should be preserved for reference. I think the request was based on a similar work performed many years ago on behalf of the French Canadian families in Quebec. This matter came up some four year ago and the members of the House on both sides who represented Acadia presented a request to me and through


MAT 6, 1904 274(5
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me to ttie government to undertake this work. It was thought advisable to do so. and Mr. Gaudet was recommended by them to do the work. He has been engaged on it for some time, and I am informed that he has the first volume practically ready for the printer.	~
John Waterhouse Daniel: Is there any return of any data already collected ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: His work is in the compilation of the volumes and there have been no interim reports of any kind.


Edward Hackett: I understood the minister to say that Mr. Gaudet would prosecute the work.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Edward Hackett: How far has he proceeded ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that he has the first volume just about ready for the printer. There will probably be three volumes but the work which has been done is largely for all three volumes so that the second two volumes will not take relatively as long in preparation as the first volume.
Mr, HACKETT. I know Mr. Gaudet very well and have known him for nearly a quarter of a century and I can say that there could be no more competent man to do the work, than Mr. Gaudet.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He was recommended to me as such.


Edward Hackett: The expulsion of the Acadians from Nova Scotia in the 18th century is a most interesting chapter in Canadian history. Those people have been scattered all over the continent of America from Louisiana to Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island, and although expelled from their homes they have proven that they have the ability to succeed in all portions of the North American continent where they have settled. It is interesting to read that these people who were shipped from Nova Scotia to Louisiana, carrying with them their mother tongue of old France, have retained that tongue. I see here in the ' Citizen ' of today an article headed :


FRENCH LANGUAGE IN LOUISIANA.
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Washington * Post.'
Congressman Broussard, of Louisiana, never spoke any English until he came to Georgetown university at the age of 15, and even now he probably uses his mother tongue-French- with the greater fluency.
'It is a curious thing,' said Mr. Broussard,
' how the French language has remained the dominant tongue in my home country. Brought there by Acadians of Nova Scoita in the eighteenth century, it prevails to-day, and I be-live always will. Curiously enough, you will find plenty of men in my district with such unmistakable- English names as Jones and Hayes who can't read, speak or write a word of English. Still funnier is the talk of the black people. Their negro-French would be unintelligible in Paris, yet it is the softest, sweetest, most musical speech I ever heard from human lips. It knows no grammar, but it is the very essence of euphony and melody.'
These people were driven from Nova Scotia in the 18th century. and have settled all along the North American continent. I think it is a great work for our Canadian government to ascertain as nearly as possible the number of Acadian families who were expelled in the first place from Grande Pr§e in Nova Scotia and then- descendants to-day in this country. I am sure there is not a member in this House who will say one word in opposition to the vote that is being asked for this record.
Fumigating stations, $4,000.
'Mr. DANIEL. Where are these stations ?
Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is one in Vancouver, B.C., one in Winnipeg, Man., two in Ontario, at Windsor and Niagara Falls, one in Quebec, at St. Johns and one in New Brunswick, at St. John. The one at St. John, N.B., serves practically for the maritime provinces. These stations are necessary to protect nursery stock in this country against the increase of the San Jose scale, an insect pest which affects the trees in the United States very considerably and which we are trying to keep out of this country. An Act was passed five or six years ago and at first absolute prohibition of the importation of these trees was enforced. That was modified a year afterwards by the establishment of these few stations where nursery stock can be brought in and fumigated and then allowed to be distributed. That modification was made in the interest of the trade and of the people of Canada who wished to buy United States stock. The fumigation is considered to be an absolute insecticide for the scale and the result is that trees, after being fumigated, are absolutely safe even when they may have been affected by the scale.


Edward Cochrane: Has the hon. gentleman any information as to how manv trees were imported through these stations'?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I could not tell that. By reference to the customs returns I could see how many packages, but I could not give the number of trees.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I would like to know a little about the system that is in vogue in regard to the fumigating of trees. Perhaps the hon. minister would tell us at what seasons of the year this fumigating is done.
I notice, at Page D-28 of the Auditor General's report, that Mr. O. N. Garner was employed for two months to December 7, 1902 and two months to May 15, 1903. Does that mean that there was no inspection or fumigation excepting between October 7th and December 7th and March 15th and May

15th ? What would be done with the trees shipped in at any other time of the year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They could not be fumigated. Any fumigating that is done must take place when the plant is dormant. If the fumigating were done after the plant starts to grow it would kill it. These are the dates between which it will be safe to fumigate the plant.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: That is to save the plant ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Wrhat is the object of the fumigating ? Suppose a man brings in trees at any other time of the year that require fumigating ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He can only bring them in during these seasons.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: By what regulation is that governed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: By Order in Council under the Act which authorizes the Governor in Council to fix the dates for fumigating these plants.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Does the hon. minister say that at Niagara Falls plants are not brought in except during these four months ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I am afraid that the hon. minister will find that there are plants brought in at other seasons of the year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman need not fear because the customs officials will look after that. Instructions have been sent out to every customs house officer not to allow plants of this character to be brought in except at these dates.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I live in the Niagara district, and I think the hon. minister had better see that his instructions are more effectively carried out. My information is not the same as that of the hon. gentleman.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would bq, very glad if the hon. gentleman would give any information which would lead to the detection of any violation of the law.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: These plants are being brought in at times other than during these four months.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have never heard that before.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I have.


Richard Blain: Against what countries is this regulation enforced ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Against the United States and Japan. I am not certain about any other countries than these two. I think the Hawaiian islands and possibly some other southern countries are also included. But Mr. LANCASTER.
the countries from which we fear contagion are the United States and Japan.


Richard Blain: What is the condition at the present time 1 Is the disease increasing or diminishing ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think it is decreasing. Before the Act was passed prohibiting importation except in this way there was some scale, though not much, in the country. The provincial authorities have undertaken to stamp it out. I think Ontario is the only province where it is recognized or known to exist. The provincial authorities of Ontario have attempted to stamp it out. They have adopted several regulations. We have not undertaken to interfere with any internal trade between the provinces. We have no means of preventing it, but we have means, through the customs, of preventing the importation of plants affected with scale, we have been trying to do so and I think we have succeeded. There has not been any case of scale in Canada that it has even been suggested came across the frontier since the passage of this Act.


Richard Blain: Would the hon. minister state whether the trade in respect to the importation of trees between the United States and Canada is increasing ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I could not give that in detail because I have not the figures showing the importation of trees. I think there has been a larger number imported as time has gone on, because our people have been planting orchards very much more freely during the last year or two than they were five or six years ago when this Act was introduced. While, of course, the introduction of such trees has been very seriously impeded by the operations of this Act, I think, that, as years go by, the facilities are being better understood, that people are perhaps importing a few more and that there is a greater demand for nursery stock in Canada than ever before. But this has been to a great extent met by the greater production of nursery stock. There is a larger number of nurseries in Canada producing good stock than ever before.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not know quite what the hon. gentleman means by saying that no scale has come across the border into the Niagara district, for instance, because the information and belief we have there is that all that has come in there has come across from the United States.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I say since the operation of this Act.


Mr. LAN  CASTER@: You can hardly make any one believe in the Niagara district that they produce the scale there. It has always been supposed in the Niagara district that this scale came in from the United States.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is the scale which existed before the Act came into operation,

but there has been no suggestion by anybody that I have ever heard that since the Act has been in operation any scale has been introduced into the country.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Has any person suggested to the hon. gentleman where the scale did come from since the operation of the Act ?
Mr. E1SHER. It was there before the Act was passed.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: It came in before the operation of the Act and remained there ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the department taking any other steps than simply fumigating the plants ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Nothing excepting that our entomologist at the Experimental Farm is constantly watching and giving instructions and information to farmers just as he does on other subjects connected with entomology. He attends meetings of horticulturists and fruit growers to give information in regard to scale and other pests and diseases.


Andrew B. Ingram: I know that as far as the province of Ontario is concerned the government there have taken steps for the purpose of destroying infected trees.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: And this government in no way interferes in that matter ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will six fumigating stations be ample for all the requirements ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have several requests for additional stations but none in Ontario. I have had a request for one at Victoria, Vancouver Island, and for one at Yarmouth, Nova Scotia.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Would the hon. minister give us some idea of the amount of money that is paid to foreign countries for trees that come in here ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That information will be found in the trade and navigation returns.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not desii'e to find fault with the amount of salary paid to the gentleman at Niagara Falls, because, even if he did not have much to do. his time would be occupied in looking for this work during these months for which that gentleman was paid. But, I would like to know to what extent fumigating was done at Niagara Falls. This gentleman. Mr. Garner, was no doubt in readiness to do the work if it was there to be done, and I am not saying that he should not be paid his salary but I would like to know the number of trees that it was found necessary to fumigate last year.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Fletcher's report will give that information, and I will place it before the hon. gentleman later on.


Jabel Robinson: Is it not a fact that the San Jose scale is decreasing ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I believe that the efforts to stamp it out have been successful.


Jabel Robinson: I think it is also a fact that there is not so much nursery stock imported now.


Richard Blain: What is the system of fumigation with regard to nursery stock grown in Canada ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The Ontario authorities see that no nursery stock is sent out of that province until it has been fumigated.
To assist in the holding of a Dominion exhibition in the city of Winnipeg during the year 1904, $50,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is in continuance of the policy adopted last year when we gave a vote to the Toronto Industrial exhibition to make it of a Dominion character. A request was made that Winnipeg should be treated in the same way this year, and the representations made on behalf of that exhibition were such as to justify us, as we thought, in giving the same grant as was given to Toronto. The Winnipeg exhibition is the exhibition of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories ; it is a very large enterprise, excellently well managed for many years and is representative of that part of our Dominion between Lake Superior and the Rocky Mountains. We thought that an extra effort might be made at this year's exhibition not only to show the newcomers into the Northwest and Manitoba the resources of the country and our system of agriculture, but also to impress on the large number of visitors who come from the United States, the fertility of the country, in the hope that the stream of immigration from the south may be continued.


Jabel Robinson: When will the Winnipeg exhibition take place ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The latter part of July.


Jabel Robinson: Is it the intention to adjourn the House so that the members may go ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I hope the hon. gentlemen opposite will let us away before that.


Andrew B. Ingram: From whom did the request for this grant come ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The request came from the authorities of the Winnipeg exhibition primarily, and I understand that it was supported by the whole public opinion of that section of Canada by communications, directed generally to the Minister of the Interior. The matter came direct to Council, and it was dealt with by Council. I can say with full confidence that the Winnipeg exhibition is endorsed and supported by the whole public opinion of that western country.


Andrew B. Ingram: Perhaps the Minister of the Interior has some explanation to give.


Clifford Sifton: There were two special features in connection with the Dominion exhibition at Winnipeg this year, which caused me to take the responsibilty of impressing upon my colleagues the desirability of making this grant. In years past applications have been made for assistance to this exhibition, but it was deemed well not to establish a precedent for similar grants in other parts of Canada. Last year, however, a precedent was created by the giving of a grant to the Toronto exhibition which was called a Dominion exhibition, in the sense that its scope was considerably enlarged by the fact that it received financial assistance from this government. It was represented that the Winnipeg exhibition this year should be specially made a means of bringing the eastern portion of and the western portion of Canada in closer touch.
Apart from matters which are in controversy between the two sides of the House, hon. gentlemen will all understand that the manufacturers of eastern Canada have been looking to the west for , an increased market for their products, so when this application was made by the secretary-treasurer of the Winnipeg Exhibition Roar'd, Mr. Heubaeh, I discussed that phase of the question with him. I said to him that I would approve of making a grant on two grounds ; one was that an exhibition of eastern manufactures should be made a special feature ; the other was that we might make the introduction of visitors from leading agricultural settlements of the United States a special feature. Mr. Heubaeh expressed the opinion that his board of directors would be quite willing to meet the conditions imposed by the government. Negotiations were opened with the secretary of the Manufacturers' Association, discussions took place between representatives of the Exhibition Board, representatives- of the Manufacturers' Association, the Minister of Agriculture and myself, with the result that the Manufacturers' Association took up very warmly the project of making a special exhibit of eastern manufactures. A special building is provided for that purpose; special regulations, the details of which I need not refer to now, have been arranged. A special feature of the exhibition will be the exhibit of Canadian manufactures under the direction of the manufacturers themselves ; and the hope and desire of the government is that in this way a stimulus may be given to the use of Canadian manufactures in the western portion of Canada by the people's observation of the excellence of the goods. The other point to which I desire to advert for a moment is what may be called the immigration feature of the exhibition. We have been carrying on a rather successful immigration work in the Western States at a considerable expenditure of money ; and Mr. FISHER.
the results achieved have been due entirely to close organization and hard work on the part of our agents. While perhaps to the outsider the movement bears some appearance of being spontaneous, that is well known to those engaged in the work to be entirely contrary to the fact. The success of the immigration movement from the Western States to the Canadian Northwest is directly due to the hard word of our agents ; and during the last year or two especially, the railway companies of the Western States, particularly those interested in the settlement of Montana, Washington Territory, some parts of Oregon and some parts of the Southwestern States, have made strong efforts to check the movement by the expenditure of very large sums of money and by the distribution of literature much of which is directly calculated to injure the reputation of our Northwest as an agricultural country. It seemed to me, therefore, that it would be a most opportune and useful thing, having in view the desirability of keeping up the movement of settlers from the Western States to our Northwest, if we could get as many representative men as possible from those localities in the Western States from which we draw our settlers, to the exhibition at Winnipeg this year, so that they could have an ocular demonstration of the capabilities of our western country. Some arrangements have already been made in the direction of securing the visit of editorial associations to the exhibition, and these arrangements will be extended between now and the time the exhibition will be held. The two features to which I have referred were those which to my mind made it especially desirable in the interest of Canada that the exhibition at Winnipeg this year should be aided by the government. The exhibition board took up the matter with great energy and enthusiasm, and I have no doubt at all that the exhibition will be made a great success. I cordially add my word to what my hon. colleague the Minister of Agriculture has said respecting the skill and ability with which this exhibition has been carried on. I very well remember when it began, and when the board came to the legislature of Manitoba for a small grant to enable it to get on its feet. It has been liberally supported b/ the local authorities-the legislature of Manitoba, the city of Winnipeg and the citizens generally; and it has been one of the important agencies in promoting the development and progress of the west in the last few years.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the usual grant made by the provincial government


Clifford Sifton: I cannot say what is given now. When I was a member of the provincial government, it gave $8,000 a year.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How much is Winnipeg giving this year ?


Clifford Sifton: I believe $50,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand that this exhibition is to open about the 20th of July. Is that not too early for a proper exhibit of the products of the province ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That has been the date of the exhibition for many years. The authorities in Manitoba who have the responsibility of the exhibition have fixed on about that date, which comes between seed time and harvest, and is the most convenient time for the great mass of the population to reach it.


Clifford Sifton: I remember very distinctly when the question arose as to whether the fair should be held in the fall or in the summer, and it was a moot question for two or three years. Attempts were made to hold the exhibition in the fall, and they were not successful. The conditions are somewhat different there from what they are in the eastern provinces. In the fall, our farmers in the west are extremely busy. One can understand that from the time the grain becomes ripe until the snow falls, everybody on the farm is working late and early, and it has been found that the only possible hope of having a successful exhibition is to be found in holding it in the summer.


Robert Laird Borden: If the conditions imposed are such as to ensure that this exhibition shall have the status of a Dominion exhibition, the grant is one we should support. It seems to me, from an interview I had with the secretary of the exhibition, that the date is a little later than that mentioned by the Minister of Agriculture. The date mentioned to me was from the 25th of July until the 5th of August.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It will commence between the 20th and 30th of July.


Robert Laird Borden: The objects seem to be such as should commend themselves to the members of the House and the country generally, and I would not be inclined to put last among those objects the importance of having the people of the east visit, as far as may be possible, the city of Winnipeg and the west, and in that way become familiar, as they cannot otherwise, with the growing importance, not only of Winnipeg but of the Northwest country generally. It is of the utmost importance that the people of the east and the west should be brought into the closest touch and especially that the people of the eastern provinces should now and then visit Manitoba and the Northwest and understand the possibilities of that very great country. I believe that the secretary and directors and all those in charge of the exhibition are very anxious that people from the east should go there in great numbers. They have some project in view by which a number of members of
parliament should take this occasion to visit Winnipeg and the west, and as far as I am concerned I must say that I think it would be very much in the public interest if that proposal were carried out to the fullest possible extent.


David Henderson: It was reported in Winnipeg a few days ago that an arrangement was in contemplation by which a train should leave Halifax and take up on the way all members of parliament who could be induced to visit this exhibition. That would certainly be in harmony with the suggestion of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition. It is extremely desirable that every member of this House should proceed to the Northwest, even if not able to spare more time than to visit Winnipeg and portions of Manitoba. Has any such suggestion been made and under what auspices would such an excursion take place ? It certainly would be very desirable that as many as possible should visist the exposition. That would be beneficial in more ways than one. Apart from getting acquainted with the western country, knowing more of its resources, being able to legislate better in its interests, it would be an object lesson on a question much discussed in the House at present, because it would show the country the advantages to be gained if the Intercolonial should be extended into the province of Manitoba and the west. I would be very glad indeed if some arrangement could be made to have as large a deputation as possible go. west on that occasion.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice that we are increasing the vote some $50,000. Last year we voted $150,000, and we are now asked to vote $200,000. I am referring to the item, ' exhibitions generally ' which comes next. Care should be taken that in giving these grants, we are not encouraging one exhibition at the expense of another. If the Win, nipeg exhibition should take place in the autumn, it would interfere with the success of the Toronto exhibition.
Mr. FISHER, The item to which the hon. gentleman refers has to do with exhibitions in foreign countries.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman says that the Winnipeg exhibition will begin between the 20th and 30th of July. If that be the date, the root crops will not have had time to ripen. I do not know whether it is intended to have a display of root crops or not, but I take it for granted that all agricultural products will be on exhibition.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The exhibitions in other parts of Canada are held much later in the year, so that the exhibition at Winnipeg cannot interfere with any of them.


David Henderson: When I spoke a moment or two ago, the minister was engaged in conversation with the Minister of

Finance and did not hear what I said. I spoke with reference to an excursion from Halifax through to Winnipeg, which, it was reported in Winnipeg a few days ago, is to take place. Would that be under the patronage of the Minister of Agriculture or be managed by those in charge of the exhibition at Winnipeg ? To my mind an excursion of that nature would result in many more members going west than if there was no organization of the kind. Has the hon. minister had any communication with the Winnipeg people on that point ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no definite arrangement as far as I know. Some of the officials connected with the Winnipeg exhibition discussed that matter with the Minister of the Interior but no definite arrangement has been come to. It is a matter which the government have not undertaken to manage and control and no part of this money will be devoted to such an excursion.


David Henderson: I would not for a moment presume that the money we are now voting was intended to pay the expenses of an excursion to the west. I think that no member of parliament who can find time to go, now that such ample provision has been made by the Railway Act for transportation, would hesitate to pay his own expenses. No one would expect the government or the people connected with the Winnipeg exposition to pay any part of that expense.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not mean to suggest that any part of this money would be used to pay the expenses of members.


David Henderson: My impression was that if the excursion received the patronage of the Minister of Agriculture and the people of Winnipeg and the west, a great many more people would be likely to go than if no action was taken along that line.


Edward Hackett: I want to say a word with regard to Prinde Edward Island. While this exhibition may be of advantage to the people of Canada generally, it cannot bo of very much benefit to the people of Prince Edward Island. I have been advocating all evening, so far as my abilities would go, that delegates of farmers conventions should have free transportation on the railways, but I have received very little support. When you consider the excellent products that Prince Edward Island has and the fact that it is impossible for the people of that province to participate in the benefits of this exhibition in Winnipeg, it seems to me that the proposal I have to make is reasonable. I beg to move in amendment that this vote of $200,000 be reduced to $195,000 and that the sum of $5,000 be devoted by the government to the support of the provincial exhibition in Prince Edward Island for the present year.


David Henderson: 


Andrew B. Ingram: The vote we are now discussing is for $50,000. That amendment would apply to the next item which is $200,000.


Edward Hackett: I supposed that the other item was passed, but I will leave my amendment until this item of $200,000 is before us.


Mr. LOGAN.: I wish to ask if any rates have been arranged by the railways for conveying exhibits from the eastern provinces to this Winnipeg exhibition ? I know that in the town in which I live, there are a number of manufacturers who intend to exhibit in Winnipeg.
Mr, FISHER. Such arrangements as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Logan) refers to are being made by the Winnipeg Exhibition officials.


Hance James Logan: I am glad to hear that, because I believe that in the eastern provinces, judging from what I hear from my own province of Nova Scotia, a large number of our manufacturers will exhibit at this Doninion exhibition. I hope my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hackett) will not move this amendment. I think I would have about as much right to ask that the Dominion government should assist an exhibition in the county of Cumberland or in two or three counties of Nova Scotia. This exhibition in Winnipeg is a Dominion exhibition, and part of its object will be to show to the manufacturers of eastern Canada the immense heritage we have in the west. I am fully in sympathy with the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) on the subject of a parliamentary excursion. I presume that, before the last of July we shall have had six or seven weeks at home, and we may be anxious to get on the wing once more, I believe that the education of a member of parliament is incomplete if he has not seen the western prairies ? It is difficult for a man to understand what the word ' Canada ' means, until he looks upon the prairies and feels himself lost in that immense heritage of ours. I have had the pleasure of being on the prairies, but have never gone to the Pacific coast. I hope to do so at an early day. I believe every member of parliament will come back a better Canadian if he can go to Winnipeg during the Dominion exhibition and learn the greatness of that city which will be the Chicago of Canada in a few years. Every encouragement should be given to members of parliament and others who assist in moulding opinion in this country, to visit the west and be impressed by the immensity of our country and the variety of its resources. This is a vote that we should heartily support.


Andrew B. Ingram: We do.


Hance James Logan: I trust then, my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hackett) will not bring in this amendment, making it appear that we think in provinces instead of thinking as a Dominion. The hon. member for Halton says it will be a good thing for members of parliament to go to Winnipeg during the exhibition, because they will then see the necessity for extending the Intercolonial westward. I think that the effect of such a visit upon their minds must be to convince them of the need of another transcontinental railway.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think it is hardly fair to my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hackett) to speak as though he were moving an amendment to this vote. The vote to which his amendment refers is the next vote of $200,000 for exhibitions.
I take it that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) is as much in favour of this Winnipeg exhibition as any other member of this House. I think all the members on this side, so far as I can gather, are in favour of it, and we should not mix up with this item an amendment which is proposed to another vote.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think that we should pass over the next item of 'Exhibitions.' and after adopting the next item, No 48, we might adjourn.


Edward Hackett: Do I understand that the item for $200,000 is passed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No. We pass over that.


Edward Hackett: Why ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Because the committee does not wish to discuss it but to take up *v otes that are not controversial.
For renewing and improving Canadian exhibit at Imperial Institute, London, $8,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is now half past eleven, If the committee pass this next item, could it not be with the understanding that the question may be discussed on some other item, and then the committee to adjourn ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no additional vote here, and I can give a clear explanation in a few minutes. I thought we might pass it, and then I would be glad to move as the hon. gentleman says, that the committee rise.


Andrew B. Ingram: Could we not pass the item, but with the understanding that we may discuss the question later on ?


Peter Macdonald: When a resolution is passed by the committee and reported back to the House, it is taken out of the hands of the committee. If, then, we undertake to discuss an item that is passed, we discuss what has been withdrawn from us. Of course, the minister can give liberty on some other item to discuss the question. We may be a little out of
order but that is the only w7ay that it can be done. For instance, when a report is made to-night, that certain items have passed, then those items that are marked ' passed ' go into the hands of the House and cannot be dealt with further by the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps it would be better to stop here because otherwise we might take up as much time in settling whether we would discuss it as would be necessary to dispose of the item finally.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I might explain that this is practically a re-vote. I gave a very full explanation last year in regard to the arrangements for the Imperial Institute and this year in consequence of the delay in the reorganization of the Imperial Institute, under the Board of Trade of the Imperial government, nothing has been done and no money has been spent up to the present time except a few dollars. This vote is to carry out the arrangement made last year under the new organization of the Imperial Institute which has now become a branch of the Imperial Board of Trade. Formerly it was under a special commission and the vote is really a re-vote.


Peter Macdonald: Carried.


Robert Laird Borden: Only upon the understanding that we can discuss it under some other item.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Any questions about it I would be glad to answer at any other time only when the item is passed it cannot be taken up again ; but I shall be very glad to give any information.


Robert Laird Borden: If there is any qualification, I think it should stand.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I thought there was no real need of discussing it.


Andrew B. Ingram: I may say that one of the hon. gentlemen who is not here now asked to have it stand.
Some resolutions reported.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it intended to take up any/ government business on Monday ?


William Stevens Fielding: If we reach government business w^e will continue supply at the point where we leave it to-night.


Robert Laird Borden: The estimates of the Minister of Agriculture ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, to be followed by those of the Minister of Marine and those of the Minister of Inland Revenue.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.40 p.m.
[Stage Direction]


Monday, May 9, 1904.