1904-06-03

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 129) respecting certain patents of Edwin R. Cahoone.-Mr. German.
Bill (No. 130) respecting the Huron and Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Wm. Ross (Ontario).
Bill (No. 131) to incorporate the Farmers' Bank of Canada.-Mr. Guthrie.

Mr. URIAH WILSON.: Before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I wish to call the attention of the Prime Minister to a statement which he made in the House that he would bring down a statement as to why certain voters' lists had not been printed. I have before me the voters' list for Sunbury and Queen's for 1904, and I have not yet had any voters' list for my constituency for 1903. I think this is unfair treatment. I understand that this means that two voters' lists have been got out for New Brunswick since 1 have had any.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I would ask my hon. friend to renew his question on Monday, as I have a letter on the subject which I cannot lay my hands on.


Uriah Wilson: I may not be here in time on Monday, and I would ask the right hon. gentleman to kindly put it on ' Hansard.'


Wilfrid Laurier: The next time my hon. friend is here.



PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Mr. WM. ROCHE.: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to refer to an apparent discourtesy on my part to the hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram). Yesterday afternoon by a previous arrangement, I paid a visit to a very interesting object lesson in connection with the agricultural estimates in the shape of live stock and other attractions. While there I witnessed exhibitions of high tumbling, but had no idea that we were going to have any exhibition of low tumbling in this House. In the evening at seven fifty, I came into the House to get my letters. I did not open them all at the moment, but went to an interesting social function and it was only after eleven o'clock that I found among them a courteous invitation from my hon. friend from East Elgin (Mr. Ingram), inviting me to be present in the afternoon as he proposed to revive the discussion of the matter in controversy between us. Had I known this earlier, I would have been present yesterday afternoon, and have put aside the arrangement I had made. I am not aware however that he lost much by my absence, because in any event I would not have replied to the observations which the hon. gentleman made. I wish to avoid as far as

possible any personal controversy with anybody. I do not challenge or attack anybody, and on several occasions have avoided encounters, though perhaps it was my duty to have met them. The reason why I did not wish to have any controversy with my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson), is because I am afraid of him, for I think that to some slight extent he was in the right. But I had other reasons for not wishing to meet my hon. friend from Bast Elgin. I am afraid of my hon. friend physically, intellectually and morally. And further, I am afraid of myself ; and do not wish to make in this House any exhibiton of temper whatever. When I do, I am sorry afterwards, because X prefer not to say or do anything which will leave an unpleasant feeling. So far as the observations of my hon. friend from Lennox are concerned, I merely spoke from memory, and I am quite willing to offer any reparation, if unintentionally I have done him any injury. I hope to continue to enjoy the friendship of my hon. friend. We occasionally exchange some words of banter, but are usually on the best of relations, which I trust will continue. But with regard to the observations of my hon. friend from Bast Elgin, I cannot make the same free admission. I did not refer to him either directly or by imputation, yet he volunteered a personal attack upon myself. He attempted to convict me of an untruth and of having had my views coloured by the fact that I am an agent of the Hamburg-American Line. On the latter point, let me say that whenever I have spoken, I have taken pains to openly state that it was in consequence of my connection with that line that I was in a position to obtain information and consequently could speak from personal knowledge. The hon. gentleman, however, was very anxious to accuse me of having stated what was an untruth, and as there were a number of people in the House and the galleries at the time, he made his charge as conspicuously as possible. ' Hansard ' in hand he made this statement without any reservation or qualification.
I would remind the Junior member for Halifax (Mr. William Roche) that he is mistaken when he thinks that the hon. member for Lennox followed him last year with his speech or even with a speechlet. There is no record of either such speech or speechlet. But I can tell him that the hon. gentleman who did follow him and who criticised his language very severely was the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver).


Mr. INGRAM.: Hear, hear.


Mr.   W@: I shall now quote from page 6610 of last year's ' Hansard ' to show what did take place and what is recorded. The Minister of the Interior said:
The only persons we hear that suggestion from is the hon. member for Lennox and his friend the United States inspector, Mr. Watchorn. If my understanding of the hon. gentleman's argument is correct, it is in effect Mr. WM. ROCHE.
that we should make such an arrangement as would allow the officers of the United States to decide who should come into Canada.


Uriah Wilson: I made no such statement. What I said was that we ought to enter into an arrangement with' them, that we ought to have as much to say about it as the Americans, and that there should be a good understanding between the two governments.
That brought up the whole question as to the strictness of the inspection by our Canadian officers. The Minister of the Interior went on to say :
They are all presided over by a general inspector of first-class professional attainments; and we have no reason whatever to believe that it is necessary that their inspection should be revised by officers of the United States.
That was in the same debate and in pursuance of the same controversy. The hon. member for Lennox then said :


Uriah Wilson: When was the medical inspector appointed at Montreal ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I cannot give the hon. gentleman the date.


Uriah Wilson: I may say that his deputy minister was before the committee as late as the 11th of June, and, according to his evidence, no one had been appointed there then.
There are three instances of the hon. gentleman from Lennox making short speeches and yet the hon. member for East Elgin says there is no record of his having made any speeches or speechlets after mine.


Andrew B. Ingram: They had no reference to you at all.


William Roche: Without any reservation, equivocation or limitation he wanted to make a direct attack, and he made a positive statement there were none and he shall not wriggle out of it. Now, on the same evening there was another debate on the question of salaries and appropriations on the same subject, and during the course of that my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) made five short speeches. That is sufficient. I was only speaking from memory and only reciting what was my impression at the time, for I had no opportunity of consulting the record or refreshing my memory- Now I want to say that I do not appear in this House as a gladiator by any means ; I do not want to enter the lists in competition with my hon. friend. Now and hereafter he may say what he likes and do what he likes with reference to myself ; I shall not reply to any personal observations. But if at any time anything is said affecting the interests of my constituents that seems to me to call for a word from me, I' shall take the opportunity of replying.
On this question that what really troubles my hon. friend is the truth ; and on this subject his conscience smites him, for once at any rate. In this case he was clearly in the wrong. He spoke without full investigation of the subject and made a flamboyant speech hoping that I would not take notice

of it and that it would pass as a refutation of what X had said. If he thinks he is equipped and qualified to enter into competition with those who engage in personalities, who are apt to fling back recrimination for recrimination, and to bandy comparisons perhaps as expressive as his own or indulge in any scurrility, he may find that there are people of that kind who will meet him and transfix him, when he will be dead as a smelt.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have only a word or two to say in reply to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche). If a man is to be attacked, at least he can prepare for the attack if he has reasonable notice. But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) in this matter, .has not done me the courtesy of giving me 'fair warning. When I intended to speak of him yesterday I gave him due notice. He read my letter and though he replied also by letter which was sent to me last night at eleven o'clock, he did not have the courtesy to say in that letter that he was going to make another attack on me to-day. This is the hon. gentleman's letter to me :
Ottawa, 2nd June, 1904.
11 p.m.


Andrew B.: Ingram, Esq.,
House ofCommons.
Sir,-I have just opened your letter. Had I received it in time, I might have put aside a previous engagement, hut, was out of town this afternon.
I am, dear sir.
Your most obedient servant,



&quot;WILLIAM ROCHE.

[Stage Direction]
It would not have hurt my hon. friend to ndd a postscript that he intended to bring up this matter this afternoon. The hon. gentleman must be afaid, however, as he admits, or his conscience must have troubled him- something must have been the matter when lie was not willing to give me the British fair play that I offered him yesterday ? I Ho not think there is anything to reply to in what the hon. gentleman has said. The statement I made is unanswerable. I am willing to let the record stand. If anything can be established which shows that my statement was in any way wrong, I am willing to apologize. But I am quite satisfied that I shall never be called upon to .apologize because my statements are absolutely correct. As to entering into personalities, I can tell the hon, gentleman that there is not in my statement a single word of a personal character-not one.
Uriah Wilson: Had the junior member for Halifax (Mr. Roche) [DOT]dropped this subject the first day, he would never have heard of it from me, because so far as I know, he and I have been upon the best terms in this House.


Mr. CLARKE.: But you will never speak as you pass by, after this.


Uriah Wilson: Oh, yes. If the hon. gentleman holds the feeling that he expresses, we shall be good friends yet. I wish to say that there was not a single interruption of any kind when the hon. gentleman was speaking on this subject a year ago, nor did I say anything with reference to what he had stated. My interruptions were entirely in the speech of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton). Several members had spoken between my speech and that of the junior member for Halifax. When the Minister of the Interior spoke, he seemed to me to put woi'ds into my mouth that I had not uttered, and I told him. So far as I am concerned I want no personalities. I have no feeling in the matter, and the only thing that surprised me was that the junior member for Halifax should bring the question up a second time. He has now brought it up a third time. So far as I am concerned, let it drop where it is.
GRAND TRUNK	PACIFIC-BRITISH



SUBJECTS AS DIRECTORS.

Mr. T. CHASE CASGRAIN.: Before the Orders of the Day are called I desire to ask a question. When we were discussing the Transcontinental Bill, I moved an amendment to the effect that a majority of the board should be British subjects. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) said that a Bill was to be introduced to amend the General Railway Act in that direction. I would ask the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) if that Bill is being prepared and when it will be submited to the House. We are getting near to-well, we are getting nearer to prorogation than we were, and if we wish to pass this Bill, it ought to be brought down now.


Wilfrid Laurier: In order to anticipate the nearness of prorogation the Bill .has been prepared; it is ready.



GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC-ALIENS EMPLOYED ON SURVEYS.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Some answer should be given to-day to the interrogatory which I addressed to the government on Wednesday in regard to the constitution of the committee for inquiry into the question of Alien Labour.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say I must again tell my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) that I cannot answer his question. The Postmaster 'General (Sir) William Mulock) is away. I expected him this morning, but he has not yet returned. When he returns I shall be able to answer.



CANADIAN-MEXICAN STEAMSHIP SERVICE.

Mr. THOMAS EARLE (Victoria, B.C.).: Before the Orders of the Day are called I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and

Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) for information with regard to tenders for the steamship service between British Columbia and Mexico. 'The Daily Times' of Victoria, an organ of the government, a few days ago, published the following :
In the preliminary agreement made between Canada and Mexico in connection with the steamship service for which tenders are being called, it is provided that Victoria or any other port where business offers will be a port of call for the vessels of the line. This provision of the agreement will also be inserted in the contract with the steamship company.
Now, I understand that in the call for tenders no' provision is made for these steamers calling at the city of Victoria, and I would like to ask the minister if it is intended that that shall be inserted ?


Rt. Hon. Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT (Minister of Trade and Commerce).: Generally speaking, in these contracts we have a clause allowing the minister to direct the calls to be made. In any case it is intended to have a clause inserted by which the steamships shall call at Victoria.


Thomas Earle: On their Inward and outward voyages?


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: Both.


Mr. JOHN W. DANIEL.: I would like to make a brief reference to the same subject, on the Atlantic and not on the Pacific side. I notice that in the tenders which are called for the steamship service between Canada and Mexico on the Atlantic side, the port of St. John in entirely omitted. There is no mention made that St. John shall be a port of call for the service. I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether St. John is to be entirely excluded from this service or not. I have no doubt in the world that, if St. John were made a port of call there would be a very considerable trade between that port and Mexico to which this steamship service will go. I would like to hear from the Minister of Trade and Commerce with regard to that matter.


Richard John Cartwright: For
these matters the amount of money at our disposal is not very large, and I am not quite in a position to say whether we will be able to deal with both services. But I think I will be able to meet the wishes of the hon. gentleman.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Are any negotiations going on now respecting the establishment of a fast Atlantic line, and if so, what stage have they reached ?


Richard John Cartwright: No negotiations other than the additional contract that was laid on the table with the Allan's, and which the hon. gentleman has seen. It was laid on the table some time ago.


Thomas Earle: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then the whole thing is over ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not say that, but no negotiations are going on at the present moment.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Has the minister any data as to the business to be carried on by these steamers between Canada and Mexico ? I presume some reports have been made as to the nature of the trade that can be worked up.


Richard John Cartwright: The report of the Department of Trade and Commerce for January supplies the information he requires.


Samuel Hughes: Are these steam-, ers going to call at any other port ?


Richard John Cartwright: We will see what we can do. The money at our disposal is not very large. I do not know yet what arrangements we will be able to make.



THE CANADIAN ARTILLERY ASSOCIATION.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 103) to incorporate the Canadian Artillery Association (Sir Frederick Borden) was read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
On section 1,
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence).: On introducing this Bill on the 10th of May last, I explained to the House that I introduced it at the request of the Canadian Artillery Association, and that it was similar to a Bill introduced by me and carried through this House in the session of 1900, chapter 99, 63 and 64 Victoria, by which the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association was incorporated. The object was to enable the association to hold: property and transact other business. I may add to what I said then that this Bill is precisely similar, almost word for word, to the Bill incorporating the Dominion Rifle Association, and I hope this Bill will be passed without alteration.
On section 9,


Samuel Hughes: I may say in connection with these clauses that this association has already done a great deal of good, and I am satisfied that the skill which has been displayed by the artillery of Canada and by the gunners whenever they have been called upon to give active service, is largely due to the efficient training and instruction of this association. The objects laid down in this section are very worthy.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Quarantine-salaries and contingencies of organized districts and public health in other districts, $150,000.
['']
Mr. BLAIN.: Explain.


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: The committee will notice that there is a very considerable decrease in the amount asked for. I am glad to say that this is due to the fact that the necessary precautions against the introduction of small-pox from the United States seem to be at an end ; in fact, the danger is at an end although there is here and there some expenditure on that account. Last year 1 was obliged to ask for a considerable sum of money to deal with the frontier, and also to deal with some outbreaks of small-pox in our own Northwest. These outbreaks have practically disappeared and I trust that the cycle of years during which this danger from small-pox has been imminent has passed away and that for several years we will not be obliged to spend as large a sum of money on this account as formerly. The expenditure in connection with quarantine is the same as it has been for several years past.


Richard Blain: How much money was expended last year on some of the different items ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Last year we spent on public health generally, which covers the head office and some salaries, $9,000 odd. Along the American frontier we spent $28,644. And the Northwest Territorial accounts amounted % to $22,000 odd, making a total of $60,000 odd. * I am speaking in round numbers. At the Halifax quarantine we spent $9,000, at Sydney nearly $4,000, at Pictou, $300, at Grosse Isle, Quebec, nearly $40,000, at St. John.N.B. $11,500, at Chatham, N.B., $730, at Charlottetown, P.E.I., $1,564, at Vancouver, $800, and at Victoria, N.B., $17,900, making a total of $145,000 odd.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I notice in the Auditor General's Report, page D-53, in connection with the quarantine service at St. John, an amount of $200 for horse-hire. It is impossible for the quarantine officer at St. John to require a horse for his use unless such horse is like the ancient Pegasus, and is provided with wings because he could only get down to Partridge Island by water. Therefore, it puzzles me very much indeed to know what this amount of $200 for horse-hire means. I also noticed in connection with the public accounts committee that the department had purchased a wagon and harness which were receipted for by the same officer and which are stated to be necessary for the proper carrying out of the service. The quarantine officer there has an allowance, I understand, for boat-hire, so that he
may be taken to and fro in the discharge of his duty, but what use he has for a horse I cannot conceive at all unless it is to go fishing or something of that kind. Certainly I think that item should be fully explained. If it is the intention of the department to raise the salary of that officer by that amount of $200 I have nothing to say against it whatever, but I do think that an item of this kind should be fully explained. I cannot conceive what it is for.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The explanation is a very simple one. The wharf is a distance from the hospital and the detention building and sick people who are landed and have to be kept in quarantine have to be taken from the wharf with their luggage and effects to the hospital. There is a horse there for that purpose and a wagon and harness are also provided. There is no possibility df the doctor in charge using his horse for pleasure purposes because the island has only an area of a few acres on which no driving could be done. The horse is never taken away from the island.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The horse is kept on the island ?	-


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


John Waterhouse Daniel: At what time is the horse taken to the island ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think the horse has been there for several years ; or at all events a horse has been there for several years. I do not know whether that particular horse has or not.


Mr. VROOMAN.: I notice a large amount of expenditure in the Northwest Territories and I would like an explanation from the hon. minister in reference to some of this expenditure. He will find the accounts at page D-63 of the Auditor General's Report. The first item is that of Dr. James Patterson, of Winnipeg, who has charged for 250 days at $20 a day with travelling and living expenses amounting to $1,196.77. This seems to me a very large amount of money to pay to this gentleman living in Winnipeg for overseeing the quarantine stations in the Northwest Territories. The travelling expenses must have been increased to this amount because of the fact that the gentleman lived in Winnipeg and not up in the Territories themselves. I have looked at the report of this gentleman and of all the items which I see included in the report of the department, his is the most meagre and contains the least information. But the point to which I wish to draw the attention of the minister is the question of the necessity in this part of the service which belongs more especially to the interior of the country of an officer of this kind. I can understand that the service up there needs a head of some kind, but if you look over the report

of the Auditor General for the Northwest Territories you find that at points where small-pox existed, some forty doctors were employed, looking after the patients and all of these were paid out of that $24,028. About $15,000 was paid to the medical staff for these cases. On page D-67 there is an item.
Rush, W. T. M.D., attendance, vaccinating, quarantining, &c., July 31st to October 1, 1902, $301.95.
That applies to all the duties connected with these people, and if you go over the report you will find that the same thing occurred in many places. Go to Whitewood. and you will see that Dr. James Budd is credited with establishing quarantine sixty miles, $65. Then go to Oxbow, and there is an item :


Trip J. H.: , M.D.: medical services, 37 days' attendance at quarantine station at $10 ; 5 visits to country at $12.50 ; team, 5 days at $5 ; telegrams, $2.35 ; medicine, $5-$464.
Thus I cannot possibly see where the services of Dr. Patterson, of Winnipeg, came in, although he was paid in all about $6,000 for these 250 days' service.
I do not wish to say anything in criticism of the charges, but there seems to be no system at all, because, if we take the case of Dr. Smith, at Medicine Hat. we find that he vaccinated twenty-nine people at $1 for each person, and Dr. Calder, at the same place, vaccinated 230 people at 25 cents each. Of course, Dr. Calder is very moderate ; I am not objecting to the charges at all, but it seems strange that in one case you pay 25 cents and in another you pay $1. At Duck Lake we find Dr. Stewart vaccinating 250 half-breeds at 50 cents each. That is. a wholesale contract, I suppose. Dr. Smyth then vaccinated twenty-nine patients at $1 each, and Dr. Calder vaccinated 230 at 25 cents each. Dr. Calder was very moderate in all his charges. He travelled 56 miles at 50 cents a mile. He apparently had not then understood that he was in the employ of the government.
The point to which I want to draw attention is that all this work was done at the expense of this country. When these people were unfortunate enough to contract small-pox a medical man was sent to them at once, and all the expenses were paid by the country. In the report of the Minister of the Interior you will see that if immigrants coming into this country are unfortunate enough to be quarantined for any cause whatever, they have to pay their own expenses or be deported with their families back to the country from which they came. I cannot see the justice of making that distinction between two classes of people. It may be that some agent has persuaded an emigrant to come to this country. He may be a poor man with a family of four or five, who comes here with very little money, Mr. VROOMAN.
and may contract some contagious disease upon the boat, perhaps from some one on board or from rats on the ship. Such a man lands here and has no money to pay expenses and he is sent to his home. But up in the Northwest Territories, men who have lived there for years, and who may be in very easy and comfortable circumstances, are unfortunate enough to contract smallpox, the people of this country have to pay the expenses all the way through. I would like the minister to give an explanation of that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am very glad to give my hou. friend the information, and I am sure that he is not making these remarks in any spirit of captious criticism, but is simply seeking for information. I shall take up these questions in reverse order. My hon. friend spoke of the expenditure in this department being different from what it is in the Department of the Interior, and also referred to the fact that we make such expenditures in the Northwest Territories. In the Northwest Territories the Dominion has practically to pay the expenses which, in the organized provinces, are borne by the provincial treasury. It is a question, of course, in some cases whether that expenditure should be by a direct vote of this parliament or whether it should be taken out of the lump sum which this parliament votes to the territorial administration for its general administration. The principle has been that what has been that what is an annual charge there year after year should be provided for in a general way by a lump sum which this parliament would vote to the territorial administration for what I might call their territorial disbursements. In the case, however, of public health, and especially in the case of a small-pox epidemic, we have an unusually heavy expenditure, one which has happened to be large in the last year or two, but which I trust may not be at all large this year and may entirely disappear. In these circumstances, it is felt that the gov-eminent, through the department of quarantine and public health, must pay charges in the Territories just as a provincial government, through its boards of health and public health department, would pay the charges in a province.
The expenditure which my hon. friend is discussing is just such as a provincial government would make. The people who have been helped in these small-pox outbreaks are not well-to-do people. If expenses have been incurred for them, it is because they have been in indigent circumstances, and this being a contagious disease, it is necessary in the interests of the community that it should be dealt with by proper officials, and not by private practitioners. For this reason we have been doing there just such work as the provincial health authorities would do in a province. In the prov-

ince of Ontario the provincial board of health has done a very large amount of work in connection with outbreaks of smallpox during the last two or three years. My hon. friend has spoken of Dr. Patterson. I may say that Dr. Patterson was chosen as being a most competent man to have general charge of all this work. My hon. friend can easily understand that in such a sparsely settled country as the Northwest Territories, it would not do to trust the work entirely to local men. Very frequent-Iv there would be no local man within many miles of the actual case. Then, we might have reports from local men indicating an alarming state of affairs, which on invest! gation might prove to be not so alarming All through our quarantine work it has been proven necessary to have some independent oversight over the local men. It is quite impossible for the director general of public health at Ottawa to take this oversight, and for that reason Dr. Patterson was chosen. It might have been possible to get a man at Regina or some othei central point in the Territories ; but Dr Patterson was considered to possess in an eminent degree the necessary capacity and prestige for the work. The only difference Is the slight difference of railway fare when Dr. Patterson is obliged to go to the Territories, though in many instances the journey from Winnipeg would be easier than the journey from Regina or Medicine Hat. The mode of procedure is this. When an outbreak is reported, it is Dr. Patterson's duty either to go himself and investigate it, or to appoint some local man in whom he has confidence and on whose judgment he can relv, to investigate it and report. In many instances Dr. Patterson has had to go and make the investigation. He has found perhaps only one case. He has taken steps to isolate that, and has appointed a physician within convenient reach to look after it and see that the disease does not spread. In other cases, in which a number of people would be affected, a regular quarantine may have to be etablished for the community or for a number of houses. Dr. Patterson's travelling has been for the purpose of holding these investigations. His work has been paid for by the day, because it was work of a temporary character. I did not wish to appoint Dr. Patterson or anybody else as a permanent officer in the Territories at a fixed salary. It happens that the payment last year reached a very considerable sum. I am told that there are very few cases in the Territories at present, that the outbreak is practically over, and therefore I trust that the expenditure this year will be very slight indeed, and next year there may be no expenditure of this character at all. But Dr. Patterson's work has been most efficient and acceptable to the people; he has avoided any friction among the people, and has been able to prevent any serious spread of the disease.
My hon. friend has spoken of the different charges for vaccination, in some cases twenty-five cents in others fifty cents and in others a dollar a case. The difference depends entirely upon the nature of the conditions. If a man bas a couple of hundred people to vaccinate in a particular locality, he will naturally charge only twenty-five cents. If he has to go fifty miles to vaccinate a few people, he may have to charge more.


Adam Edward Vrooman: A larger mileage.
. Mr. FISHER. We would have to charge mileage for his travelling expenses, but at the same time he would have to spend considerable time in order to vaccinate a few people. I am informed and have noted in my departmental work that Dr. Patterson s accounts have been very carefully prepared. They have been sent here only after he has carefully examined and initialled them; and I am told by the accountant of the department that these accounts are among the best and most carefully prepared accounts that we have in the department. I understand that Dr. Patterson has a reputation from which we might expect that, and I am glad to know that that is the opinion of the chief accountant and the director general of public health in the department. I think my hon. friend will understand from this explanation that this work is being done in as practical and businesslike a way as possible, under the circumstances, the outbreaks having been very scattered, the distances great and the population sparse.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I would like to ask the minister where the vaccine which is used in these cases is obtained, whether in Canada or in the United States ? I believe there are places in Canada where vaccine is manufactured ; and that being so,' if it is as good a quality as can be obtained anywhere else, it should certainly have the preference.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that Dr. Patterson gets his vaccine at Regina from a firm known as the Canada Drug Company. I do not know where they get it.


Adam Edward Vrooman: I would like to ask the minister whether his department or the government have considered the propriety of establishing a department of public health for the Dominion ? I see by the report of the director general of public health that there is a resolution from the Canada Medical Association recommending that. I would like to know how the government looks upon it.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No decision has been reached. There are certain constitutional difficulties that might arise if the government should take action. Some people consider that it comes within the jurisdiction of the provinces. The matter is one well

worthy of consideration, which I have brought to the attention of my colleagues.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE.: There is a question in connection with the quarantine, with regard to Manitoba, which I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. minister. I have bad a couple of communications from the secretary of the Provincial Board of Health in that province complaining of the manner in which the quarantine regulations are enforced. Knowing nothing personally about the matter, I shall' simply read the correspondence :
Winnipeg, May 11th, 1904. Dear Sir,-For some time past the Dominion government have made the pretense of appointing quarantine officers at certain points in southern Manitoba for the purpose of preventing small-pox from coming into the province. Two of these officials are Dr. Sharpe, of Morden, and Dr. Riddell, of Crystal City, and, I believe, there are others. These officials have regularly drawn their salaries for the past two or three years from the Dominion government, and there is scant evidence as to any value having been received for the expenditure. You can readily understand how inadequate and unproductive such an expenditure would be, by the medical men referred to being located at points far removed from the boundary line.
Some time ago I was advised, after making due inquiries, by the secretary of the State Board of Health of North Dakota, as to the prevalence to a very large extent of small-pox in the vicinity of St. John and Rolla, N.D.; in fact, the disease has been evident in this locality for the past year or two, and whether it is owing to inadequate quarantine provisions by the state authorities of North Dakota, the fact remains that the disease does not appear to be under control or on the wane.
At the present time there are upwards of 70 cases of small-pox in quarantine at St. Johns. This condition of affairs was brought by me to the attention of Dr. Montizambert, director general of public health, Ottawa, some few weeks ago, with the request that proper steps be taken by the appointment of persons along the boundary line to prevent persons from the infected district coming into Manitoba, to which a reply was received that Dr. Riddell, of Crystal City, had been requested to visit St. Johns and report. This report was received by Dr. Montizambert, who communicated the same to me, and was to the effect that about 68 cases of small-pox were in quarantine at St. Johns, but I have not been informed up to the present time, as to what, if any, action has been taken to prevent infected persons coming into the province, although I have requested Dr. Montizambert to so advise me on two or three occasions.
The most grevious complaint which the hoard has to make is that during the past month not a few cases have been allowed to come into the province from the infected district. The disfease first made its appearance at a place named Lundar, in the municipality of Posen, east of Lake Manitoba, of which you doubtless know the residents are principally composed of half-breeds. When informed as to the outbreak I wrote to one of the pro-Mr. FISHER.
minent men at that point asking the source of infection, who replied as follows
' I find that a few weeks hack a family from the states (Turtle Mountain district, I believe) moved in there, and that the infection came from them."
Dr. Cleghorn, one of the health officers of the municipality of Argyle, writes of the existence of four cases in the Rock Lake country, in the municipality of Argyle. He says [DOT] the infection was brought in by one John Bell, who had been visiting at St. Johns, N.D. Bell had been in quarantine in the St. Johns district, which district was then, and is now, I believe, infected with small-pox.'
Dr. Morrison, of Belmont, the other health officer for the municipality of Argyle, states that four cases have made their appearance in the district south of Belmont. The first ease came from North Dakota. The cases are amongst the half-breeds.'
Dr. Parr, health officer for the village of Morden, reports the existence of a case at Morden, having come from township 1 in range 7, being in the municipality of Pembina, and that the infection came into this section from across the line, and that persons have been, and are being permitted to cross the line with perfect impunity.
Another ground of complaint that the board has reason to make is that about a month ago certain Scotch emigrants were brought into the province by the Dominion government, and small-pox having made its appearance among one of their number, all were quarantined near the Louise bridge in St. Boniface. It appears that at Sudbury a number of Ontario settlers were put into this car along with the Scotch emigrants, and were quarantined along with thorn at St. Boniface, having been exposed to the infection. These Scotch emigrants were kept in quarantine the proper regulation period, but the Ontario settlers were allowed tlioir liberty, after being detained four or five days, and the result of this stupidity, on the part of the Dominion medical officer and immigration commissioner here, was, that these peopl.. were allowed to depart to all portions of the province. The first evidence of this most reprehensible proceeding on the part of rue Dominion authorities was that one of the passengers, Emory Valley, by name, went to Lauder and infected a whole family, which is now under quarantine at that point, and which will probably cost that municipality of Cameron several hundreds of dollars. This man Valley, after leaving the small-pox impression at Lauder, went to Brandon and wandered about the streets for several days, and then vanished, notwithstanding that the police and health officials of Brandon made all due endeavours to locate him. You will see therefore that the province has just grounds of complaint as to the action of the Dominion authorities in matters involving the administration of public health and the suppression of disease in this province.
You are aware, I have no doubt, that the province has no control or jurisdiction at the boundary line, and that it is necessary that any action taken at that point must be done by the Dominion authorities. What the province is entitled to expect, and should receive, is adequate protection in the premises, and I bring the foregoing facts to your attention for the purpose of giving publicity to the same

in the House as a representative from this province, with the object, if possible, that some live steps will be taken to protect the people of this province from the infection from outside points.
I regret to have to trouble you at such great length, but my justification is that the subject fully warrants the same. I will be pleased to hear from you at your earliest convenience.
Yours truly,
E. M. WOOD, Secretary.
Following that I received another letter, in which Mr. Wood complains very much of the scant courtesy paid these communications. He writes on May 13th :
Dear Sir,-Adverting, to the quarantine by the Dominion government along the southern boundary, I beg to say that on Saturday I received a telegram from Dr. Montizambert stating that medical frontier officers have been appointed and guards placed at points in the vicinity of Killarney, Deloraine, Morden and Crystal City. I am nevertheless of the opinion that it would do no harm if the matter was brought by you to the attention of the House.
I think you might also inquire as to the duties of the health officials who have been appointed as quarantine officers and guards at the points referred ; what they have been instructed to do, and how often it is intended that reports shall be received. The province is in great danger, if the order of things which has prevailed for some time past continues with having several epidemics of smallpox at points in the province.
Yours truly,



[Stage Direction]
Secretary.
The complaint made by the secretary of the Provincial Board of Health is that in the first place the officials who were selected live at inland points, far removed from the boundary and consequently are not in a position to guard the boundary against the importation of disease. I understand that they draw $100 a month in addition to their regular practice, and the complaint is that they render no service for the money. He complains of the tardiness of the answer of his communications although admitting that, ou the 18th of May, when he writes, he had, at last received word that at several of these points officials had been placed. But he desires to know, and asks me to inquire on behalf of the province, what the duties of these officers are, also as to their reports, whether there is any stipulated time for these to be made, and generally, what duties are expected of these officers. The minister will recognize how important this matter is, especially now that the stream of immigration into that country is so great. It becomes now a most serious problem not only from a provincial standpoint because it will impose financial burdens upon the province. but because of the dangers to the people through the spread of these infectious diseases, and also because municipalities are likely to be put to large expense in taking charge of these patients.
Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no doubt the hon. gentleman (Mr. W. J. Roche) has confused two wholly different questions. One is that of guarding our frontier on the States, and the other is as to danger of importation of disease by immigrants who reach the west by train from eastern sea-board. X will refer to the latter first because it is the most easily disposed of. When immigrants come to the ports on the Atlantic? sea-board they must pass through the hands of our quarantine officers at GVosse Isle, St. John or Halifax. If these officials find no disease upon them, they allow them to enter the country. Our quarantine is a quarantine on the boundary or on the sea-board. After the immigrants pass that quarantine, my department has no more control over them anu no responsibility for them. They are then in the hands of the Immigration Department and are dealt with by that department. Of course this inspection cannot be absolutely perfect. The hon. member for Marquette (Mr. W. .T. Roche) as a medical man, knows that it is impossible to provide a system of inspection which will enable us to detect infallibly the man who will afterwards develop a case of small-pox. As to the cases which are said to have come across the frontier from the United States, it is true that, in St. Johns, North Dakota there was an outbreak of small-pox. We were notified of that and took immediate steps to protect the frontier. Dr. Sharp was appointed at Morden, Dr. Riddell at Crystal City and Dr. Thornton at Deloraine, and Dr. White at Killarney. Dr. Sharp and Dr. Riddell were appointed a considerable time before Mr. Wood wrote to Dr. Montizambert and im-mediatelv on our discovery of the outbreak in St. Johns. It is true that Dr. Sharp and Dr. Riddell live at some distance from the boundary but they have a guard under them whose duty it is to watch the trail and every place of passage across the boundary. Of course, these guards are not medical men. It is impossible to get enough medical men to station one at every place where there is a trail across the frontier. You could not find the men, and, if yon could find them you could not pay them to stay and carry on this duty of watching, except at salaries which would be quite prohibitive. All we can do is to have the medical officer as near the frontier as possible and where he will be within reach when he is notified of any difficulty or danger. That has been the practice all through the country and it is the only course for us to follow. In a country like Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, where population is sparse and distances are considerable and where the frontier is an imaginary line with trails crossing it at many places, it is physically impossible to station a doctor at every point along the line or to have everybody who seeks to cross i medically examined by a doctor. The plan

we follow is to have a doctor as near as possible to the principle points, and, if necessary, allow him to employ guards to watch the trail along the means of communication as closely as possible. Then, where there is a case which arouses suspicion the doctor can be called in and make an examination. As a matter of fact this method has been generally successful. My hon. friend (Mr. W. J. Roche) is aware that, even with every care, contagion may pass the boundary. I think my hon. friend spoke of a case of a man who came from St. Johns. North Dakota,; where he had been exposed to smallpox. There was nothing to indicate that the man had small-pox or that he would be affected by the disease, yet it is quite true that he might have carried the contagion in his clothes. But no inspection that can be devised. by human ingenuity will enable the officers in every case to detect the person who is carrying the small-pox contagion. The hon. gentleman knows that the period of incubation of the disease is considerable and that even a person who does not develop it may carry the contagion in his clothes and luggage. I appreciate our responsibility as to shutting out disease. We are doing our best in that direction and adopting every means possible. In connection with what the hon. member for Marquette has said I may say that, in no instance where any of the provincial health authorities had given us information that there was danger, have we refused to act on that information. In every case, we have taken steps as promptly as possible to guard against danger. Nor have we always waited for information from the provincial authorities, because my director general of public 'health is in the closest touch with the health authorities of the different frontier states as well as with the Washington authorities, and we are consequently in receipt of information as to the health and the sanitary work of the frontier states. Thus we are advised, perhaps as soon as the provincial authorities, where danger threatens. Wherever danger threatens we appoint an officer. Those officers are appointed temporarily because their services may be needed one month and not the next. The hon. gentleman will agree with me that, in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, where professional services are highly paid. $100 a month is not high for a doctor, even when he is allowed to carry on his own practice as well. If we were to debar these officers from practice, we could not engage them at $100 a month, and probably not at $200 a month, to do this work for the government.


William James Roche: Are these officers supposed to report regularly, or are their duties confined to the time when some particular case of disease is before them?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They are appointed by the month. When we consider that the dan-Mr. ROCHE.
ger at the point on the frontier is past, we notify them that their services are no longer required. While they are on the duty they i ei ort regularly as to the condition of affairs, what they have done and so on.


William James Roche: The minister says they report regularly. Does he mean that they report regularly on cases as they arise, or do they report as a matter of routine at certain intervals ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They report once a month regularly and of course they report when anything special occurs.


William James Roche: Of course, I cannot criticise the hon. minister, for he has shifted the responsibility with regard to the main question to the Immigration Department. As the cases which do not relate to the hon. gentleman's department were the most flagrant I shall take another opportunity of offering criticism. Some of the municipalities in Manitoba have been put to danger, inconvenience and expense by these cases.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no doubt that my colleague the Minister of the Interior when his estimates are under discussion will be able to give full information on the point.


Uriah Wilson: Has the minister got a quarantine officer at Victoria ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Uriah Wilson: I would like to know if the minster's attention has been drawn to an article that appeared in the ' Citizen ' this morning concerning fifteen first-class passengers being quarantined at North Bay. They were passengers from the east. One died on board on the 5th of May. They came up from Victoria to Vancouver where another one was taken sick just thirteen days after the death of the first one, and was taken to the hospital, where it turned out to be a case of small-pox. The other passengers were allowed to come east and were on the train for five days. It does seem to me there must have been carelessness on the part of some person. These people should not have been allowed to land after it was discovered that one person had died on board the ship and another was so bad that he had to be taken to the hospital, and died shortly after landing at Vancouver.
Mr., FISHER. This matter has been brought to my attention although not in this particular form. The steamship ' Athenian ' came from Japan, and was examined at our quarantine station at Victoria. The vessel first touches at Victoria and then goes on to Vancouver. The quarantine station for these incoming Pacific lines is at Victoria. The vessel became a coastwise vessel at Victoria, no disease having been discovered on; board.


Uriah Wilson: That is not what the article says.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Our quarantine officer at Victoria sent a report by letter, and we have had telegraphic communication with him, and he states that he examined the vessel at Victoria on her coming into the quarantine station there and found no disease. He therefore gave her what we call a free pratique, and the vessel then going on to Vancouver became what we call a coastwise vessel, and came under the usual responsibilities of a vessel within the jurisdiction of the province of British Columbia, just as any other vessel going from one port to another port within the province would be. It appears that during that time a case of small-pox developed, and when the vessel arrived in Vancouver she had that case on board. That ease was landed in Vancouver and dealt with by the provincial authorities. The passengers on this vessel were allowed to take the train and come east, and it appears that when some of them arrived in the province of Ontario another case was discovered. It was simply a precaution on the part of the provincial authority of Ontario to hold these people up, because in his judgment they had been in contact with a case of smallpox a short time before. These are briefly the whole facts of the case. As I said a little while ago answering the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Roche) the duty of my department is to examine vessels on arrival at our ports. They are examined with the utmost care and precision, and when no disease is found on these vessels the people are left free to enter the country and then come under the laws of the province in. which they may happen to be. It is the same' on the eastern sea-board. When a vessel arrives from England and touches at Halifax she is examined by the quarantine there, after which she may go on to any other port in Canada. After she has been examined for quarantine she goes forward as a coastwise vessel. When the vessel gets to Quebec she is examined at Grosse Isle at the quarantine station, and goes on to the port of Montreal and is examined again for quarantine, purposes. She is then a vessel in the Dominion of Canada, having passed quarantine at the first port touched, after which she is no longer under our quarantine laws, and we have no longer any control over her or over her passengers.


Uriah Wilson: It seems to be another case of divided authority. I presume that after it leaves the first quarantine station it comes under the control of the Inferior Department.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not in the case of the * Athenian,' because they were not immigrants.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think it makes much difference whether the people are im- '
migrants or not. When they come to this country and have been exposed to contagious disease, they should come under the control of the quarantine officers. It is a very strange thing that the Dominion officers did not pronounce the disease contagious while the local officers said it was. It is another illustration of how carelessly the machinery for the prevention of that kind of thing is managed in this country. We see every day in the newspapers accounts of people that are landing on our shores who are suffering from various diseases, people who are paupers, and who become a burden on the country. It seems to me there ought to be some way of stopping people, even if they are not immigrants, after they have been exposed to contagious diseases.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend must understand that when people come to this country with no appearance of disease about them it would be an unwarrantable interference with liberty to stop them and have them disinfected.


Uriah Wilson: When a man who is so sick that he has to be taken to a hospital, after having been exposed to a contagious disease, is that not a sufficient reason for stopping him ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: So far as the quarantine in concerned we can only deal with contagious diseases. This disease had not developed when the man came to Vancouver and landed there. It was only after he was taken to the hospital in Vancouver that the case was found to be one of small-pox. But when he landed in Victoria he was not recognized as affected with small-pox. It was after that that the case developed into what was called malignant small-pox, and that was after the passengers had landed and were just as free as anybody else to do as they liked. My quarantine officers had absolutely no right in law to detain those passengers. When the vessel passes our quarantine, my officers take no further account of the passengers at all, we let them go, we have no further knowledge of them. No officer of mine knew that this man went to the hospital afterwards.


Thomas Earle: Has the quarantine officer at Vancouver no authority ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not when the vessel has passed the quarantine at Victoria. If a vessel comes to Vancouver without having touched at Victoria my officer at Vancouver deals with her, but if the vessel comes to Victoria and is there given pratique, or clearance, she then becomes a coastwise vessel and my officer at Vancouver deals with her just as a vessel coming to Victoria as if she had not come across the Pacific.


Uriah Wilson: Is it not the duty of the captain of the vessel to report when a man

dies of small-pox on board of his ship and when another man is taken ill just thirteen days after with small-pox, so that the patient may be attended to and put in quarantine ? It does seem to me that it was the captain's duty to have reported that case to your officers.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend does not seem to quite grasp the situation.


Uriah Wilson: Perhaps not.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The vessel is dealt with for quarantine purposes according to her papers from her last port of call. This vessel had a clean bill of health.


Uriah Wilson: You will not say that without reference to what occurred on the voyage V


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I mean to say that when a vessel from Yokohama conies to Victoria the officers there have no control with anything that may have occurred before she left Yokohama, where the vessel obtained a clean bill of health.


Uriah Wilson: Notwithstanding the fact that a man has died at sea ?


Mr. SPROULE.: Suppose the disease develops in the meantime ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Then he deals with it ; but the hon. gentleman is speaking about a case that occurred before the vessel came to Kobe.


Uriah Wilson: That is not a fact.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman may not know about it, but it is a fact. This was a case of disease that occurred between Nagasaki and Kobe. The vessel at Kobe was thoroughly disinfected by the Japanese authorities, and I may say here that their quarantine work is very effective and thorough. The vessel went on from Kobe to Yokohama and at Yokohama she was given a clean bill of health. Then she came to my quarantine station at Victoria, and the officer's only duty there was to examine the bill of health of the last port of call, which was the port of Yokohama.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it not his duty to make an examination of her passengers V


Sydney Arthur Fisher: - Certainly, and he did examine her passengers ; but he had nothing to do with what occurred before she left Yokohama.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand the minister to say that his only duty was to examine the bill of health given at the last port of call.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: What I mean is that his duty, as far as her bill of health was concerned, was only to examine the bill of health given at Yokohama, but he had to examine her passengers. He did examine her passengers. and finding no disease he gave her a Mr. WILSON.
clean bill of health. After she was given that clean bill of health she entered the waters of the Dominion, and after the passengers had arrived in the Dominion a case of small-pox developed. That was only after they had landed at Vancouver. It was not on board the vessel at all. The patient was then in the province of British Columbia, on shore and in a local hospital at Vancouver, entirely out of the control or beyond th j espansibiltty of the quarantine officers. Then the case developed, and the local authorities had to deal with it. Apparently the local authorities did not stop the people who had been in contact with that case before it developed. Some of the passengers who had been on the vessel took the train eastward and came through. The health officer of the province of Ontario thought it advisable to stop them and quarantine them at North Bay, and he did so.


Uriah Wilson: Who will have to pay for that ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The province of Ontario will have to pay the cost of her own action.


Thomas Earle: Could the hon. minister state the time that elapsed between the death of the passenger previous to the arrival of the vessel at Yokohama and the time at which this case broke out ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that it was over eighteen days. That is from the death of the man on board the vessel until the passengers landed at Vancouver.


Thomas Earle: Then the vessel was not properly quarantined at Yokohama ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot say as to that. The usual time of incubation, I understand, is fourteen days.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I think the regulations of the department laid down by the hon. Minister of Agriculture are very unfair indeed to the provincial authorities in those cases where the voyage is technically completed on the arrival of the steamer at the first Canadian port, when it is really not completed until arrival at the second port. The same trouble that has arisen on the Pacific coast has more than once arisen on the Atlantic coast, where steamers have come across the Atlantic and put in at Halifax. After being examined there by the quarantine officer the vessel leaves for St. John, and disease breaks out ou the vessel after it leaves Halifax and before it reaches St. John. Under the regulations laid down by the hon. Minister of Agriculture the quarantine officer in St. John takes no action in regard to that matter at all, and the consequence is that the whole difficulty, trouble and expense are loaded on the province, necessitating two sets of quarantine officers, one set under the control of the provincial authorities and the other under the control of the Dominion authorities. I do not think

it is at all fair to the place where the'voy-age is really concluded to have a regulation of that kind. A vessel may touch at the first port of call merely to discharge mails or passengers, whereas the main port of call is the second place arrived at. I certainly think that the department over which the hon. minister presides ought to make some change in these regulations, so that the voyage will be technically completed where it is really completed-at the port where the vessel is going to and where it discharges and takes on cargo. I am aware that we have had some correspondence between our city and the Department of Agriculture in regard to this matter. This is a question that has created a great deal of friction in our city, because we certainly do think it unfair to throw upon the city of St. John the expense of keeping a quarantine officer to go on board and examine passengers and ships when, under the British North America Act, quarantine is placed under the control of the Dominion authorities. E think, if these are the regulations of the department, it is time they were changed in simple justice to the city authorities where the voyage is completed.


Mr. KENDALL.: I entirely agree with the remarks of my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Daniel), because several incidents similar to those which he has referred to have come under my notice. If the Dominion government undertakes quarantine against disease coming from outside it should not take advantage of a technicality when a vessel calls at one port on her way to her destination. I would like to ask my hon. friend if the expenditures that were incurred there were not met by the Department of Marine and Fisheries instead of by the local authorities, as he says ?	,


John Waterhouse Daniel: The expense was met by the city of St. John.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I would like to ask my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) if the communications which he read to the committee to-day were received by him from a medical man ?


William James Roche: The communication sent to me was from the secretary of the provincial board of health, Mr. E. M. Wood.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Is he a medical man ?


William James Roche: No, he is not a medical man.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: My hon. friend (Mr. W. J. Roche) wilt readily appreciate that statement that he read to the House must convey the impression that the authorities in that locality are very lax. The hon. member for Marquette being a medical man of good standing himself will agree with me when I say that if the territory to the south of Manitoba was largely infected with smallpox, it would take perhaps 50 nr 75 or 100
medical men along the boundary to guard that province from the invasion of persons with small-pox then on them. But persons who had contracted small-pox a few days before might come in dozens or 'hundreds and yet no number of medical men could be held responsible for an invasion of the disease into Manitoba. I think he will admit that.


William James Roche: I may say that the criticism made by this gentleman was not so much directed to the particular case he refers to along the boundary line except in so far as he had great difficulty in getting any information from the Dominion authorities as to what procedure would be followed in preventing an invasion of small-pox from the United States. He referred more particularly to the influx of Scotch and Ontario immigrants. I presume that Mr. E. M. Wood, who is a very intelligent gentleman and who has been secretary of the Provincial Board of Health for many years, voices the sentiments of the Provincial Board of Health, which is composed of medical men and that he is not doing this off his own bat.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I am sure my hon. friend (Mr. Roche) will agree that if they had an intelligent board of health there, there is but one intelligent thing they can do, and that is to vaccinate. Quarantine is all very well as far as it goes, but it is only a very partial preventive against small-pox. There is a divided authority to which the hon. member for St. John has just referred. The quarantine department deals with an invasion of any quarantinable disease from outside the Dominion, but if we have quarantinable diseases occurring on the sea-board in connection with the merchant marine, the officers of the Marine Department have to deal with it, and frequently the question of divided authority is important. I would again suggest that it is very nearly time that arrangements were made whereby quarantinable diseases on the sea-board at least would be dealt with by one department instead of by two departments. I do not know whether the Minister of Agriculture is waiting for recommendations from the medical men of the country or not, but if he is, I think the medical men in this House will secure before the next session recommendations from the various medical bodies throughout Canada to that effect.
There is another matter to which I wish to call his attention. I think that the medical men of Canada would endorse action on the part of the Minister of Agriculture along the line of providing for the establishment of a vaccine station at which medical men could obtain vaccine on which they could rely. We now have to take most of our vaccine from concerns south of the boundary and having had pretty large experience myself in the use of vaccine for some 20 years, I feel safe in saying-and I am sure this will be endorsed by every medical man-that

we feel on many occasions that the vaccine we get is not fresh. This is a matter of very great importance to any locality on the occurrence of the outbreak of small-pox. I would urge that the medical men throughout Canada would endorse the action of the Minister of Agriculture if he took steps to provide a vaccine farm for the benefit of the people.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There are already a number of vaccine farms in Canada. There are two in Ontario, one in Alberta and one in Manitoba.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Are these not all managed by private concerns.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Oh, no, one in Ontario is assisted by the Board of Health and is under its direction.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I am glad my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) has brought that to my attention. The providing of good vaccine is so important that we should not leave it in the hands of speculators, for the temptation when a demand is made for large quantities of vaccine is so great that I fear in many cases old and valueless vaeeine would be sent where good vaccine is required. For that reason I hold very strongly that a government vaccine farm should be established, because the medical men of the country would then feel safe in receiving vaccine ; at least they would feel sure that no pecuniary interest precluded them from getting the best.


William James Roche: Have not some requests to that effect already been made to the department ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The matter has been discussed more or less, but I do not think there has been any request from medical men officially or from any body of men. The question has been up for consideration.


Uriah Wilson: I think it is most unfair to Ontario in these cases which I have brought to the attention of the House that the provincial government should be charged with the quarantining of 15 passengers at North Bay through the carelessness-I do not think that is too strong a word-of the Dominion officials at Vancouver. The regulations may be wrong, but there is one thing certain to my mind, that the officers of either the Department of Agriculture or of the Interior Department, ought to have the power to stop cases of this kind and to prevent people travelling through the country in cars as they please after having been exposed to contagious and dangerous diseases. I consider it is a most unfair thing to the province.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me there must have been something defective in the examination. I understood the minister to say that all the quarantine officer has to do is to examine the passengers on the vessel Mr. KENDALL.
and look at the clearance at the last place of call. Now, if I understand correctly, he has to go a good deal farther. He has to inquire into any case of sickness that may have taken place on board or any death and to ascertain the nature of the disease. Apparently this was a case of small-pox and the patient had died. Any intelligent quarantine officer knows that the development of small-pox takes so many days after contagion,, and that a vessel might pass one or two ports in the meantime without the incubation having advanced to such an extent that it would be apparent that it was small-pox. If it was brought to his attention that a case had occurred on board and that a patient had died so many days before, it would suggest to him that it was his duty to go further than simply examine the passengers, and if they were apparently in good health allow them to go over the country in any direction.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend is quite right, but in this case the criticism does not apply at all. My hon. friend knows that the ordinary period of incubation of small-pox is about 13 or 14 days.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 14 days.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Fourteen days. The case the hon. gentleman refers to had occurred before the vessel reached the port of Kobd, and eighteen days elapsed between the time of her leaving that port and the time of her arrival at William's Head, Victoria : so that my officer had no reason for thinking that there could be a development of small-pox from that case which had occurred more than eighteen days before he had examined the vessel and after she had been thoroughly disinfected. The individual passenger who afterwards developed small-pox in Vancouver was carefully examined because he was ill. He showed no signs of small-pox, but he showed signs of sickness from having taken too much alcohol, having been drunk during most of the time he was on board.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long was it between that time and the time the vessel reached Vancouver ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I suppose it reached Vancouver the next day.	[DOT]


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And a few hours after he reached the hospital the small-pox was out on him ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: He was not taken to the hospital as a small-pox patient. It was after he had got there, I do not know how long after, that the small-pox broke out on him.


Uriah Wilson: Can the minister tell the date of the arrival of the steamship ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am not sure of the exact date.


Uriah Wilson: The article in the 'Citizen' says the man died on the 5th of May, and

the other man was taken with the disease on the 18th, which is only thirteen days after.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is not correct.


Thomas Earle: The inference is that the ship could not have been properly fumigated at Yokohama.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot say as to that.


Richard Blain: Do I understand the minister to say that the examination is made at the first Canadian port at which the vessel touches ? Suppose a vessel is destined for the port of St. John, and she first touches at Halifax, where she is examined and is given a clean bill. If disease develops between Halifax and St. John, which is a run of several hours, does the hon. gentleman mean to say that nothing can be done by the quarantine officers at St. John ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: As a matter of fact, when a vessel comes from England to Halifax, the quarantine officer at Halifax examines it chiefly for the convenience of the ship and the people who land at Halifax ; but the vessel undergoes another examination at St. John, which is a quarantine port. If the vessel were not going to another quarantine port in Canada, the examination at Halifax would be more searching, and the vessel would then be free ; but we have given this concession to the shipowners in order to delay the vessel at Halifax as short a time as possible and have her re-examined at St. John. But the rule is that a vessel shall be examined where she first touches, and after that we have no more responsibility for her.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: In case of contagious disease breaking out on a vessel between Halifax and St. John, would the hon. minister's department be liable for the expense ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It would stop at St. John.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Would you put the case into your own hospital ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I hope that is so. If it is so, I hope the minister will take a different view from the view which has been entertained in his department on one or two occasions. That vessel would be a coastwise vessel, would she not ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Except in the sense that the examination at Halifax was not a complete examination.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: If there were a complete examination at Halifax and a case of disease occurred on the way to St. John, would not the authorities of the Marine and Fisheries Department have to look after the case ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think the Marine and Fisheries Department would look after the ease when the vessel comes from a for-133
eign port, unless she is under Canadian register.


Richard Blain: 
Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think those items are only for the frontier inspection, and have nothing to do with the organized quarantine ports. The expenditure in Quebec ought not to; be under that item at all. It ought to have been under the Grosse Isle quarantine station.


Mr. MACPHERSON.: I do not wish to say anything disparaging of the officer in charge of the quarantine station at William's Head, because I think he is eminently qualified to fill the position. The fact is that the ' Athenian ' was given a clean Bill of health at the quarantine station; and after she left the quarantine station and proceeded to Victoria and on to Vancouver, one of the passengers developed some serious illness, was taken fi^the hospital at Vancouver, was found to be suffering from small-pox, from which he died. Although the minister says he died from alcoholic poisoning


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, I said that he had been suffering during the voyage and during the quarantine from too much alcohol, that when he was examined at Victoria by Dr. Watt, he was examined as a sick man. and was therefore more carefully examined than he would have been under ordinary circumstances ; that he was landed at Vancouver as a sick man and was taken to the hospital; that he was not supposed to be affected with contagious disease ; but that some time after he reached the hospital at .Vancouver, he developed small-pox and died.


Robert George Macpherson: I beg the honourable gentleman's pardon. I did not quite catch what he said ; but the fact remains that some forty passengers are rounded up in our isolation hospital and have to be kept at the expense of the city of Vancouver. They have to be quarantined in that hospital, as the city cannot afford to have the small-pox spread and be visited again with this terrible scourge which afflicted us ten or twelve years ago. I think that in such a case, when our officers at Williams Head gives a clean bill of health, and a few hours after the disease breaks out and the city is put to considerable expense, the blame should lie at the doors of the quarantine officer, and it is rather unfair that the Dominion government should not recoup the city. I am not saying that our officers are negligent, because I know that Dr.



Watt, who is our quarantine officer at Williams Head, is one of the best men we have. He has done splendid work at that station, and since he has been in charge we have had very little trouble. This is the first instance in which there has been any. It seems to me that the Dominion government should investigate the matter thoroughly and find out if this man had the small-pox when he was examined by the quarantine officer ; and if so, refund the city the expense it was put to.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have no hesitation in saying that in this individual case, as the facts are reported to me, no possible blame can attach to the quarantine officer at Williams Head. It was quite impossible for him to diagnose the case as small-pox. The question of paying the expenses in Vancouver or elsewhere is a matter of general policy which would have to be settled on general lines. There may be instances where the law may be a little hard, and where perhaps the government might assume the responsibility, but there are many others where it would be very hard to decide. Therefore definite clear lines have been laid down of quarantine responsibility; and when once we begin to doubt, we get into the habit of doing many things which this government should not be called on to do. As far as my own administration is concerned, I must adhere to the clear well-defined lines.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not think we can heartily agree in the bon. gentleman's conclusions with regard to this case. To begin with, there was a death from small-pox on board the vessel in question. Of that death there was a record, and the quarantine office must have known it. That in itself should have suggested great care. The officer comes in contact with the sick patient and examines him. We are told that the case was supposed to be one of alcoholic poisoning, but there is no resemblance between that and developed small-pox. The fact that a death from small-pox had occurred should have suggested to the medical man the necessity of ascertaining whether the symptoms in the case before him were not those which might be expected in the development of that disease. There was to say the least some carelessness, or otherwise the medical officer would have been sufficiently suspicious to look for symptoms of the same disease. True the vessel might be disinfected and the clothing, but often articles escape disinfection, which afterwards, when brought into contact with the human body, communicate the infection. There was a case of sickness on board which developed a few hours afterwards into small-pox. It was only a short time from the time the vessel left the quarantine station at Williams Head until she landed at Vancouver, Mr. MACPHERSON.
and immediately on this patient being taken to the hospital, the small-pox was quite apparent. The pustules had developed, which could not have been the case if there had not been symptoms apparent for some time before. Take the temperature, the temperature of a patient suffering from alcoholic poisoning and that of one suffering from small-pox would be different.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: His temperature was normal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It might have been, but I am afraid it would be quite difficult to convince medical men of that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is so stated by medical men.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The symptoms must have been apparent when the man was lying ill, and there must have been some carelessness or they would not have escaped notice.


Mr. ALEX. JOHNSTON.: There is what appears to me a weakness in the quarantine regulations which I pointed out on a former occasion. In the province of Nova Scotia, for instance, when a vessel leaves an American port and calls at a Canadian port, she is examined, but when she leaves the Canadian port and then proceeds to another Canadian port, this disease may develop during the voyage. No notice is taken if the disease breaks out after the ship has left one Canadian port and reaches another, the vessel being considered as a coastwise vessel. The hon. minister should look into that and see if the regulations could not be so amended as to meet cases of this kind which may arise any time.


Robert George Macpherson: After this man landed in Vancouver, he was examined and found to be suffering from small-pox. Could not the Dominion officer have sent this boat back to quarantine ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is not the interpretation put upon the law by the Department of Justice. Once a vessel has got a clear bill of health, we have no authority over it.


Robert George Macpherson: After having been examined at Williams Head and after she had reached Victoria, the disease broke out.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The examination takes place between Williams Head and Victoria. It finishes just as she goes to Victoria. The doctor goes on board and frequently goes to Victoria with the ship. And, if he does keep her there, it is only for a couple of hours till she reaches the wharf at Victoria. Williams Head and Victoria are one port.


Robert George Macpherson: In the supposititious case, this vessel does not call at Victoria, but will go direct to Vancouver. After having passed Williams Head upon

going to Vancouver, she is not a coastwise vessel until she reaches Vancouver. It is a hardship to Vancouver that the regulations should be as they are. As a matter of fact this disease is brought in by a foreign vessel and landed on our shores in Vancouver. In the particular case that has been referred to, I do not think there is any possible chance of the disease spreading. But the fact of these people coming in causes the city of Vancouver to be put to very heavy expense. My impression is that the quarantine regulations should be such that, if any disease develops within fourteen days after the arrival of a vessel at quarantine, the Dominion government should be responsible, because the fact that it develops in that time proves that it was on the vessel.


Uriah Wilson: Is there any person who can tell us how the fifteen passengers got away that were reported to be in quarantine at Vancouver ?


Robert George Macpherson: I would like to set the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) right about that. After the disease had broken out and the patient had died, our authorities in Vancouver rounded up all the passengers who had been on the boat and who were in the city. Of course, they had been going about the streets for three or four days. They have got them isolated now.


William James Roche: I notice that some of the hon. gentleman's officials are paid $100 a month while others are paid $150 a month. In some of the border towns, where apparently, 'there would be more work to do in connection with quarantine, the pay is only $100 while, for instance, Dr. Tyerman, of Prince Albert, received $150. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) will find it at page D-0(5 of the Auditor General's Report-salary for June, 1902, $150 and expenses $120.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can only say that the payments to Dr. Tyerman were made on Dr. Patterson initialling and authorizing the account. I cannot state now the reason why in this case $150 was paid, unless this gentleman had to be in constant attendance on some case at $5 per day for a month. In the cases the hon. gentleman refers to of officers on the frontier, these are appointed at a stated salary. These officers are appointed from here. But in other cases, Dr. Patterson is authorized to make what arrangements he can and he must initial all accounts.


Mr. ROSAMOND.: I see that Dr. Hughes has been paid $100 a month for a certain portion, and from 1st April to June 30th, $200 a month. Why was that?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that Dr. Hughes, during part of the time, was absent from home being sent down to the frontier, and he would not go for less than this salary. We could not get any other man, so we sent him. It was a temporary matter.


Bennett Rosamond: 1 do not know whether
the minister has explained what seems an excessive charge for Dr. Patterson. I see charges $20 a day. That is as much as a cabinet minister receives.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: But my hon. friend (Mr. Rosamond) will see that it is not a yearly salary, but is paid for 250 days. When the arrangement was made it was expected that it would be for a short time.


Bennett Rosamond: Dr. Patterson gets not only $20 a day, but living expenses as well. This puts him in a better position than a cabinet minister who receives only $7,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Oh, we are not in it with these professional men.


Bennett Rosamond: The director general only gets $4,000 a year which is much less in proportion to wliat this quarantine officer receives. I would like to know why Dr. Patterson is paid what seems to me an excessive salary ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not believe we could get a medical man who would take the responsibility and do the work at less than $20 a day. I confess that it seems to me to be a high rate, but I find that professional men, lawyers and doctors, insist on high salaries when paid by the day.


Bennett Rosamond: I venture to say there are hundreds of medical men in the west who would be glad to take the position at a much less rate than that.


William James Roche: I do not like to unduly criticise the charges of medical men and I realize that, in the west, most of them are deserving of a good fee. But there seems to be no uniformity in the charges that are made for the services rendered to the government. For instance, Dr. Tyerman, whose case I have called to the attention of the minister, charged $150 for his June salary, and I notice he charges 944 miles at $1 per mile for travelling. I am aware that that is the usual charge per mile for a limited number of miles, and I have no doubt that the number of miles is correct. But I see on page D-65, Dr. Calder, of Medicine Hat, whom I know to be a good medical man and a good surgeon, who was resident surgeon for a time of the Medicine Hat hospital, 

who has always been reasonable in his charges to the government, charging for instance, 25 cents for vaccinations, while others charged $1-charges for 56 miles at only 50 cents per mile. The minister will see that there is no uniformity in these charges.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can only say that these accounts are submitted to Dr. Patterson, and are gone over by him and that he audits and initials them. I suppose he knows the circumstances under which the charges are made. I can readily understand that one man might have to drive a long

distance and take a pair of horses and a driver and so have to charge more per mile for driving a long distance than another would have to charge for a short distance which could be made with a single buggy and himself as driver. At the same time, I confess that I do not know that in one case there is a charge of fifty cents and in the other a charge of si.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is Dr. Patterson still in the employ of the government ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, when he has any work to do.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the minister to Say he was a very careful man. How are his accounts paid ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: These people send in their accounts regularly, I suppose about once a month, and they are paid as they are sent in. There might be a few small accounts kept over until they accumulate, but I think they are sent in once a month.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I find Dr. Patterson's account on page D-63 :
Nov. 16, 1901, to June 30, 1903, 250 days at S20 ; travelling and living expenses, $1,196.77 ; telegrams, $136.81 ; stenography and type-writing, $63.75 ; disinfectants, $7.50 ; total, $6,404.83.
This account extends over three years, and a good share of that ought to have been in last year's report. If Dr. Patterson is such an exact man, it is strange that his account should extend back over three years, and he gets paid for 250 days at $20 a day, besides these extras I have read. That seems to be a made up account, extending over a long time, and does not indicate business habits on the part of Dr. Patterson.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There was one year, I forget which, when we ran out of money for some time, and had to wait until the House had voted it before we could pay the accounts. We had heavy accounts to pay a long time after they were due. What my hon. friend has read corroborates what I am saying. He will see that Dr. Patterson's account extends over a period of a year and eight months, he was paid for 250 days ; so he was not by any means paid for all his time ; it was only occasional days that he was paid for.


Richard Blain: I do not think it is a proper system to allow a man like Dr. Patterson, who is a very active politician in the city of Winnipeg


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Is he ?


Richard Blain: My hon. friend knows well he is, or his salary would not be so high.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, that makes not a bit of difference. It is the profession, not the politics, that makes the salary high.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 


Richard Blain: What I say is this : Here is a man located in the city of Winnipeg who has absolute control of that Northwest district. If he employs a man to do some outside service for him, a professional gentleman, the latter sends in his account, and Dr. Patterson has authority to pay the man $100 a month or $200 a month just as he likes.
Mr. FISHER, That is not quite a fair presentation of the case. Dr. Patterson knows the conditions and circumstances, and what arrangements he made, and he initials the account to show that according to those arrangements and under those conditions and circumstances, he thinks it a reasonable account. My hon. friend knows that is the regular custom in all branches of the public service. The official who has charge of that branch sends in the account to the department initialling it and declaring that he believes it to be a proper and just account, and the department takes his initials as a sufficient guarantee.


Richard Blain: It is giving too much power to an official of that kind.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Let me add that if in such account there seems to be anything unusual or improper then the head officer of the department here has the right to criticise it and send it back for readjustment. That is not unfrequently done. As I said a little while ago, in Dr. Patterson's case that did not seem to be necessary because the officers here tell me his accounts have always been in very good shape.


Richard Blain: It is like the case of the minister. Here a minister comes forward with a large expenditure asking for a vote $160,000. The hon. gentleman comes before the committee to explain the vote, and in the accounts that were passed and paid last year we find one man getting $100 a month and another getting $200 a month, all doing work in the same part of the country. The hon. gentleman was asked for an explanation, and he says, this officer of mine has absolute power, and I can give no explanatioh of this increased expenditure. Dr. Patterson has power to make the mileage $9 per mile or $20 per mile. That is the objection I take to this item. I think the hon. gentleman should prepare a schedule of rates to apply to that section of the country, and Dr. Patterson in the city of Winnipeg should be compelled to live up to those rates. He is an active politician in the city of Winnipeg and he should not have a right to employ doctors all over that country and pay them as he wishes.
Mr. FISHER, Is he an active politician ?
I do not know.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend need not ask that, because Dr. Patterson would not be in that position if he was not a good supporter of my hon. friend.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I really do not know.


Richard Blain: I am sure this other gentleman, Dr. Shearman, is.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The hon. gentleman's neighbour (Mr. Roche) could tell us more about Dr. Patterson than I could.


Mr. BRODEUR.: Did not Dr. Patterson oppose the Minister of the Interior ?


Richard Blain: My hon. friend seems to know a good deal about the matter. Perhaps he would be good enough to say whether he did or not.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I am informed that he opposed the Minister of the Interior ?


Richard Blain: I am informed there are many Liberals in that part of the country in the same box.


William James Roche: I do not think Dr. Patterson would at all deny that he was friendly to the Liberal party. I do not criticise this case, but I can vouch for Dr. Patterson being a good staunch Liberal.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am glad to hear it. I will have greater confidence in him than before.


Richard Blain: As I have already suggested, I think it would be better policy for the minister to lay down a schedule of rates and hand it to Dr. Patterson, and give him absolute instructions in respect to this matter. I think it is putting altogether too much power into the hands of a special officer in the city of Winnipeg.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend knows that that is done with the chief officer in every branch of the service.


Richard Blain: There are no such accounts like this in other branches. But, leaving that, I was going to remark that a great number of immigrants are coming in now from the old countries, some of them of a very desirable character and some which the Canadian people are taking exception to. My hon. friend knows that a considerable amount of disease is brought over by immigrants in these vessels. The discussion that has taken place has disclosed the fact that not a very thorough examination of these immigrants takes place at the quarantine stations because sometimes they pass by and in a day or two disease breaks out.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, that is possible.


Richard Blain: I am not going to discuss that now but what I was going to say was this :	Would it not be advisable to put
medical officers on board of these vessels on which 300 or 400 immigrants are coming out ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They all have medical officers.


Richard Blain: Not in the employ of the government.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, but in the employ of the ships.


Richard Blain: I think the money would be better expended, if, when 200 or 300 immigrants take passage on a vessel, the Dominion government were to have a medical health officer on that vessel to make a thorough and complete examination of the immigrants so that when the vessel arrives at Halifax, or St. John, or Victoria, he will be able to give a clean bill of health, so that we would not have such cases occurring as those which have come up for discussion this afternoon.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is just that kind of thing that is done by the ship's officers.


Richard Blain: They are not responsible to the government.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, but they are responsible to the ship-owners and the ship-owners are extremely anxious that no difficulty should arise. The steamship-owners impress upon the medical men employed by them the extreme necessity that there is for careful supervision so that when a ship does arrive at quarantine it shall not be delayed. One of the most serious difficulties that ship-owners have to meet with is delay at quarantine, and they take the most extreme pains on all their vessels so that they may obtain a clean bill of health at once. With that object in view they impress upon their own medical officers the greatest care, and if the medical officer finds any disease upon a ship that is quaran-tinable the ease is immediately segregated and quarantined on board the ship in such a manner as to prevent the disease spreading. We know all about that and I can assure my hon. friend that it is the general practice of the doctors on board ships which carry immigrants. Of course I want to say in regard to quarantine work that there are no human means by which disease can be absolutely and entirely shut out. Our quarantine prevention is only just so much as can be done. Oases of the kind that occurred on the 'Athenian,' may occur at any time. There are phases in the course of disease which are such that no doctor can possibly, entirely and always successfully diagnose. These are rare cases but they sometimes occur. We can only make our rules and our laws such as to meet the ordinary course of disease and deal with it in the ordinary way.


Richard Blain: If a vessel arrives at Halifax with 200 immigrants on board, how long would she stay there to permit of the examination of the passengers?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In the first place the doctor on the ship makes his report. In the second place the whole of the people on board are passed under the eye of the

medical officer. Medical officers who are accustomed to this kind of work are generally quick to detect any indications of debility or disease, and after they do so detect them they make a special examination. For one of these documents in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, a mere glance is sufficient to show that a person is not affected by any ordinary disease and that is the way the inspection is made. I am reminded that the evidence of the ship's surgeon is taken under oath. He makes a statutory declaration and that statement is prima facie evidence as to the conditions on board.


Thomas Earle: Do I understand the hon. minister to say that the ship is detained at the quarantine station while the examination of the passengers is made? After the medical officer has obtained the report from the medical officer of the ship does he not go on board the ship and make the examination on the way ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is a matter of convenience. I suppose my hon. friend (Mr. Earle) is referring to the practice at Williams Head. Williams Head is some three or four hours out of Victoria.


Thomas Earle: It is eight miles from Victoria.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Well then it is only about an hour from Victoria. When Dr. Watt stops the vessels at Williams Head, if everybody appears to be all right and he can get through with the inspection in an hour or two, the vessel stays there and he does not go on to Victoria. Sometimes he does go into Victoria and then returns. In that respect he tries to suit the convenience of the ship as much as possible. If it is a little late and the captain wants to get into Victoria before 'dark he will go on board and make the examination there. If not, he may keep the vessel at Williams Head while making the examination.


Thomas Earle: In reference to the case of small-pox that occurred, it strikes me that when a ship comes in and the report of the medical officer shows that a case of smallpox had been on board and that only a short time would elapse before the expiration of the period for incubation, it would be better to detain the ship. In this case such a course would have been effective In preventing an outbreak of the disease.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In this case there was a difference of four days. There were 18 days between the time of the vessel's leaving Kobe where she was disinfected by the Japanese quarantine authorities and her arrival at Williams Head where she was examined by Dr. Watt. That would leave a margin of four days and I may say that most medical men would consider that as a sufficient margin.


Thomas Earle: I was mistaken in the time. The statement in the press was that only 13 days had elapsed.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the hon. minister keeping up the practice of employing medical men in various towns throughout the country which prevailed before ? I see in the Auditor General's Report the following :
Beaver Hills : McCrimmon, A. A., M.D., salary. July 1 to Sept. 5, 1902, Jan. 2 to June 30, 1903, at $100, $813.43.
Bruce Mines : Parker, F., M.D., salary, July 1 to Sept. 5, 1902, April 1 to 15, 1903, May 1 to June 30, 1903, at $100, $469.99.
Then there is one at Fort William, Dr. Hamilton, and two at Owen Sound.
Owen Sound-
Hershey, J. A., M.D., salary, April 15 to June 30, 1903, at $100, $253.33.
McCullough, J. A., M.D., salary, July 1 to Sept. 5, 1902, at $100, $216.66.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Since the year that the Auditor General's Report covers we have practically done away with this practice because the danger has ceased. At the present time there are two officers in Ontario, one at Sault Ste. Marie as there are still some small-pox cases reported to exist in some of the lumber camps in Minnesota, and one at Rainy River, also due to the existence of some cases in the lumber camps in Minnesota. These are the only two that are in Ontario. We dismiss them as soon as the danger seems to disappear.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: One or two of the members on this side wish to have a little explanation on some of these items and perhaps one might be allowed to stand.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is only one item.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 110) respecting the Ottawa Electric Company.- Mr. Champagne.
Mr. BIRKETT.: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move that the Bill be not now considered but be referred back to the committee for further consideration. He said : My object in doing that, Mr. Chairman, is that the Bill in its present condition


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: If you wish to refer it back to committee again that would be done on the motion for third reading. When the Bill has been considered in committee and reported to the House then on the third reading you could make this motion.


Thomas Birkett: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: TVhat power would that give them ?


Thomas Birkett: That would give them power to control all the electricity we have in the city. If they acquire a controlling power in the other two companies, competition so far as electric light is concerned, is at an end in the city of Ottawa. A great deal has been said about the company not paying any dividends. There are various opinions upon that subject. Personally I am not in a position to express an opinion other than what I have heard. The company to-day stands with a capital of $1,000,000 but it is questionable whether they have received the million dollars or not, whether that million dollars has not been watered to such an extent that the company has received but a very small portion of what it should have received from that amount of capital.
An instance has been brought to my notice to-day ; that is, that when the amalgamation between the Standard and the Ottawa companies took place they paid an annuity, which they have continued to pay, to one gentleman of $15,000 a year. That $15,000 has been paid out of impaired capital, and amounts to one and a half per cent on the gross capital of the company. If the company were deriving any benefit from the paying of that annuity, the shareholders would not be in the position they are in today, of receiving no dividends on their stock. What I would like the committee to do is to consider clause 2, and the advantages which the company wish to derive from striking out the latter portion of it to the detriment, not only of the city, but of every citizen of Ottawa. We all know that it is much easier to create a monopoly than to destroy it after it has been created ; and if this company is allowed to have this enactment, we shall have one of the greatest monopolies in the city of Ottawa to be found in the whole Dominion. I may say that at the present time the price we are paying in Ottawa for electric light is not less than the price paid in other cities. I saw a telegram from Hamilton to-day informing me that the price paid there was about the same as ours, although there is no competition in that city. If hy the passing of this Bill competition is taken away, instead of the Bill being sent back to the committee to have the matter, if possible, adjusted, the result may be to impose a heavy tax upon the citizens of

Ottawa. I would, therefore, ask this committee not to enact this legislation, which would be so detrimental to the citizens. 1 ask it in the spirit of fair-play, as one of the representatives of the city. I am satisfied that the government do not wish to cto less for the city than they would do for a private individual ; and no individual would do or assist in doing to another what this company is asking to be done to the city. I trust that this will not be a case of legislating for a few when the many are interest ed. Let us have legislation for the many where the few are interested. I leave the matter in the hands of the committee, trusting that it will have due consideration. Before sitting down I wish to say that when this matter was before the Private Bills Committee, out of the seventy-nine members of this House of which that committee is composed, there were only thirty-three present, and the Bill was carried by a vote of nineteen in favour of it and fourteen against, a majority of only five. There has been a good deal of comment as to why I, as a member of that committee, was not present on that occasion. I do not suppose that this committee is interested in my private affairs, but I can explain my absence in a very few words. I was not present at the meeting of the committee simply because I was prevented by circumstances over which I had no control. I was not at the House on the evening previous and did not get my mail , hence I did not receive the notice of the meeting, and did not know of it. I was attending to other business when, perhaps, I should have been here. I hope the committee will consider this matter in the light in which I have endeavoured to place it before them.


Mr. PUTTEE.: Is there an amendment moved ?


Peter Macdonald: We have not yet arrived at a stage when an amendment can be moved.


Arthur W. Puttee: There is an amendment standing in my name to be moved on the third leading of the Bill ; but there was an understanding that it would be preferable to have the Bill sent back to the Private Bills Committee without any instructions except for further consideration. If that can be done, that is far the best thing to do.


Peter Macdonald: The committee has no power to refer a Bill back. The House can do that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I move that the committee rise and report progress for the purpose of having the Bill referred back to the Private Bills Committee. I do so for what I regard as a very good reason. It is quite clear what the aim of the promoters of the Bill is. I remember very distinctly the fight that took place in this House and in the Private Bills Committee over the new com-Mr. BIRKETT.
pany that was chartered some years ago lor the purpose of giving permanent competition in furnishing electric light and power to Ottawa. That was the special plea put forward for the granting of that charter, and the promoters of the Bill were quite content to have the clause put in which we are asked to throw out to-day. that is, that the company should not be allowed to buy the stock of other companies except on special lines, so that amalgamation would be prevented. There was no objection to that on the part of the promoters of the Bill, and the city of Ottawa, through its council, represented that that was its desire as well. All that was wanted was to secure permanent competition. The committee was content with that explanation, and passed the Bill. That competition has gone on for years, and now an effort is made to increase the stock of the company. The promoters of this Bill do not disclose the real object of increasing the stock. They represent that it is for the purpose of increasing the water power of the company, whereas it turns out that the object is to enable the company to get control of other companies in the same line. If the committee had understood this. I do not think it would have granted it, and I am quite sure that if the House understands it, it will not consent to the passage of this Bill for the purpose of forcing what would be a monopoly for all time to come on the city of Ottawa.


Mr.   CLARICE@: I am not a member of the Private Bills Committee, consequently I was not present at the meeting in question.


Mr. COWAN.: The matter was discussed very fully on both sides for about an hour and a quarter, and the attendance was probably the largest that I have seen at the Private Bills Committee.


Mr. LANCASTER.: How many were present and voted for it in the committee ?


Mahlon K. Cowan: Thirty-three voted-19 for the Bill and 14 against it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I do not think this committee should be guided entirely by the fact that there were thirty-three present in the Private Bills Committee when this measure was before it and that nineteen voted one way and fourteen the other. The substantial fact is that the representative of the city of Ottawa and our colleague in the House (Mr. Birkett) enters a protest against the passage of the Bill in its present form for reasons he has given. I am sure that those who are promoting the Bill and those who are opposing it could, if the opportunity were given, come together and arrive at some compromise. I think this measure should be held over, in view of the strong protest made against it, and the parties given an opportunity to come to an understanding.


Mr. LENNOX.: I hope that this measure will uot be pressed through to-night and that an endeavour will he made to reach a compromise. We are all interested in it to a greater degree than we are in any ordinary Bill. For a large portion of the year, and for an Increasing portion every year, we are spending our lives in Ottawa and are doing a good deal to improve the city. I understand that it is the ambition of the right hon. gentleman who leads the House- a very laudable ambition-to make Ottawa the Washington of the north. And I think therefore, we should be very careful not to do anything that will embarrass the citizens in advancing the interests of their city. 1 do not know anything about what took place in the Private Bills Committee, but the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Birkett) has certainly made a very strong plea for reconsideration of the matter, and I think no harm, but good will result by our not adopting the Bill to-day.
Mr. G-ALLIHER. I was present in the Committee on Private Bills during a considerable portion of the time this Bill was being discussed. My hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) wants that Bill to go back again in order that some compromise may be arrived at. The difference between the two parties is simply this: The Ottawa Electric Company, in their charter, are restricted from purchasing the stock of other companies except in payment for supplies, and they want to be allowed to purchase the stock without any restriction. On the other hand, the city of Ottawa wants to except from such power the stock in the two other companies, the Consumers and the Metropolitan.
Mr: CLARKE. They are the only other electric light companies in Ottawa.


Mr. GALLIHER.: Will the hon. gentleman suggest any possible way by which they could arrive at a compromise ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Yes, if I am correctly informed. there is a limitation in the charters of the other two companies-the Metropolitan and the Consumers-as to the maximum price they can charge for light, but there is no such limitation in the charter of the Ottawa Electric Company. While I am not authorized to speak on anybody's behalf, it seems to me that a compromise might be reached whereby the maximum price which the Ottawa Company can charge would be limited to the price fixed in the charters of the other two companies.


Mr. EAYELL.: The original Bill suggests a method by which a compromise might be reached. Under the original Bill, paragrapn 8, provision is made by this parliament whereby the company may purchase the franchises of certain electric light and power companies, but there is a proviso which limits the right of purchase, and when they do acquire the franchises of those
other companies named in the original Act, they take them subject to a very important proviso. I gather from what has been said by the hon. member for Ottawa that that is the point which most affects the city. The proviso subject to which the Ottawa Electric Company may take possession of the franchises and rights of the companies named in its charter is this :
Provided that after any such purchase, lease, or other acquirements, working arrangement or amalgamation as aforesaid, is entered into, the company shall not, without the consent by by-law or otherwise of the municipality of the city of Ottawa, or of the city of Hull, respectively, as the case may he, increase the ordinary prices or rates charged by any of the said other companies for electric light in the city of Ottawa or in the city of Hull, respectively, at the time such lease, purchase or other acquirement, working arrangement or amalgamation is entered into.
That is a very important proviso. In 1894 when this charter was asked for. the Private Bills Committee would not permit the Ottawa Company to acquire the franchises of the companies definitely named without some precaution to protect the two municipalities. I know not what may be in the minds of the city council of Ottawa or the hon. member for Ottawa, with respect to a possible compromise, but in addition to the suggestion thrown out by my hon. friend from West Toronto, there is this suggestion in the original Act itself. I think there is considerable more in this Act than the private interests of either the Ottawa Electric Company or the Ottawa city,- because the second clause touches on a principle which will be very far-reaching in its effects, if it is going to be accepted as a precedent by this House. I do not want to go into the merits now. although if the Bill goes so far as the third reading, I shall consider myself bound to do so, but I call attention to this point, that that section of the Bill, if passed in the form in which it is now, practically recognizes the principle that an electric light company can hold the stocks and control the interests of any other similar company. That, if carried out to its full extent, would warrant the most complete merger that can be devised and be of great assistance to the formation of large trusts. Hon. members will remember the late dispute and litigation over the Northern Securities Company, which after all was only what is asked for in this Bill. If parliament is prepared to recognize a principle which leads to the formation of great tiusts without the interference of legislative authority, it will be perfectly safe to pass this particular clause, but I draw attention to the point as affecting the general interests of Canada. As to whether some form of compromise may be arrived at between the city and the Ottawa Electric Company, it seems to me that there is a basis for compromise in the

charter itself, and that some understanding might be reached which would enable the company to do this business and yet prevent the citizens of Ottawa from feeling that they are in the clutches of a great monopoly. I would call attention to the fact that the Bill itself, in every one of its clauses, very plainly points to the machinery for creating such a monopoly, for not only is the capital to be increased- against which I have not the slightest objection-but clause 3 of the Bill increases its borrowing powers by fifty per cent. That is, the original Act allows them to borrow up to fifty per cent of the paid up stock, while this amending Act makes provision for borrowing up to seventy-five per cent. The first and third clauses. I would be personally willing to support, but, taken in connection with the second clause the whole Bill points in the direction of an attempt to create a huge monopoly.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not think that any good purpose can be served by insisting on this legislation being passed through in what, I must say, is, under the circumstances, a very hurried way. The hon. member from Ottawa (Mr. Birkett) has told us in a very few words why he thinks this legislation will injuriously affect the city ot Ottawa ; and it seems to me that hon. members of the House might take a hint from that and consider how it will affect the whole Dominion of Canada. In my opinion there is a good deal of private legislation passed without hon. gentlemen, either in the committee or in the House, considering it from the standpoint of its effect upon the Dominion at large, I do not understand that legislation is to be passed simply because those who are interested ask for it and people at the moment do not see reason for objecting to it. I think the onus rests upon every hon. member to look further and consider whether legislation is wise in the interest of Canada as a whole. Unless we have reason to believe that legislation is in the interest of the Dominion, whether public or private, I, for one, until better advised hold that we ought not to pass it. There seems to be a disposition to overlook this point and to pass legislation simply because it is asked for. In passing the Bill in its present form, it seems to me, the committee has run counter to the principle actuating other Select Committees so far as I have knowledge of their proceedings. For instance, in the Railway Committee, when some railway seeks to buy up or amalgamate with other railways that might compete with it, the committee always insists that it shall be upon terms that shall afford due protection to the public interest. Now, in this case we find that the Act of Incorporation of the Ottawa Electric Company, passed in 1804 provides that this company may acquire shares in the capital, stocks, and debentures and securities of other electric Mr. IA VBI.L.
companies or companies possessing powers similar to those of the company as the consideration of goods, wares and merchandise sold to such other companies in the ordinary course of business. It is these final words, 'as the consideration for goods, wares and merchandise sold to such other companies in the ordinary course of business ' that it is proposed to strike out. So, the qualification or limitation, by no means a small one, it is sought deliberately to strike out. And, apparently nobody advocating this Bill pays the House the compliment, or does hon. members the justice, to explain why this limitation is to be removed, and why this Act. passed in 1894, apparently carefully drawn and fully considered and now in force for ten years, is to be thus changed. The principle involved, it seems to me, is a most important one. Under this legislation, passed ten years ago, the city of Ottawa has acted and grown ; under it the people of Ottawa have dealt, apparently supposing that the Dominion parliament would support them In the conclusion, reasonably drawn, that their interest as defined by the Act would not be prejudiced. The people of all Canada, for that matter, have a right to suppose that no legislation will pass this House without due reason given, to change the law in the light of which they have carried on their business and made their arrangements. The city of Ottawa, assists or refuses to assist, deals with or refuses to deal with, certain companies because the legislation of 1894 is on the statute-book. And now, without reason given, it is proposed to strike out these important words that qualify or limit the operation of this company and to allow the company to swallow up unconditionally any other company, in the same business, to which the people might look for competition which would secure for them reasonable prices in such services as this company is authorized to render. The hon. member for North Leeds (Mr. Lavell) very properly, in my opinion, pointed out the provision at the end of section 8 to the effect :
Provided that after any such purchase, lease or other acquirement, working arrangement or amalgamation as aforesaid is entered into, the company shall not, without the consent by bylaw or otherwise of the municipality of the city of Ottawa, or of the city of Hull, respectively, as the case may be, increase the ordinary prices or rates charged by any of the said other companies for electric light in the city of Ottawa or in the city of Hull, respectively at the time such purchase, lease or' other acquirement, working arrangement, or amalgamation is entered into.
That provision, he pointed out, had been carefully drawn in regard to this company launched in 1894. Now, what about the other companies that have sprung up since: for instance, the Metropolitan, brought into existence for the purpose of creating competition with this company ? The Metro-

politan and those people interested in it would have a right to sell out without that restriction to this company, while these other companies, that are equally entitled to consideration, cannot sell out without these restrictions put upon them, and upon their assignees, if they do sell. The effect would he that the Metropolitan would get a franchise unconditionally and without these restrictions, and other companies are not bound by these restrictions-for the companies that are to be allowed to sell out to this company by the statutes of 1894 are all enumerated, and those only that are enumerated are bound by that provision. It would not only practically nullify one section of the Act by another section, but it does more. The company that has come into existence since this, in 1894, not being mentioned in that section, would have a right to sell out to the Ottawa Electric Company its franchises, make all its arrangements, and do it without the Ottawa Electric Company being bound by the same provisions that it is bound by in buying out these other companies. It seems to me to be making special legislation for the benefit of certain people. I do not know or care who the people are that are interested in any of these companies ; but we must not pass legislation in this hasty way that is going to have the effect of giving some people rights that we take great care to see that other people shall not have without certain conditions. I think it is a very wise suggestion that this committee rise in order that the matter may be further considered, in order that what we have pointed out may be met. I think no harm can be done. There will be plenty of time to pass the Act this session, if it is to become law, with the further advantage that many gen tlemeu in this House, who may not belong to the select committee which may be appointed to consider it, like myself, for instance, may become better acquainted with it. I have every respect for the Miscellaneous Privatp Bills Committee, but in a question like this, on which there is such a great difference of opinion, I am bound to raise my voice here to-night and to give effect to my objections, because every member of parliament becomes responsible for this legislation after it goes through the House unless he opposes it. Under the circumstances. I think the committee ought to rise, report progress and ask leave to have this matter referred back. I am influenced by the fact that only nineteen members of the Private Bills Committee have thought that this ought to pass, and only fourteen voted against it. So 195 members of this House have not had an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon it, other than the fourteen who voted against it in the committee. Under the circumstances, I hope the premier will consider this as a reasonable request under the circumstances.


Thomas Birkett: I would like to ask my hon. colleague, the Speaker of this House,
to accept with me the suggestions of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke), and ask the committee of the House to refer this Bill back to the Committee on Private Bills for the purpose of hearing the city council. So far the matter has not been discussed by the city council, to my knowledge. This being a matter of such vital importance to the city, it ought not to be too hastily acted upon. I would like to hear from the hon. the Speaker, and have him express his opinion on the matter, as I feel satisfied that if this matter is referred to the committee again that some amicable arrangement will be arrived at between the city council and the company in regard to the regulation of rates for the charges of electric light to the city, something similar to what appears in the Consumers' charter.


Some hon. MEMBERS: The city council were heard before the committee.


Thomas Birkett: I am satisfied that what I am asking is only just. The Solicitor General has supported the contention I am making now, also the hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Puttee), the hon. member for East Queen's (Mr. MacKinnon) and the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Stewart). I would ask that the members of this committee give serious consideration to this matter. I would like to hear from some member of the government. This is a matter that interests the people of Ottawa more than any other question that has come before the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to read the request made by the city council of Ottawa, because I think it puts the case so plain that the committee can easily understand it. I have a very distinct recollection of the time when the Ottawa Electric Company was first incorporated. The mayor and city solicitor of Ottawa say in their petition :
The Bill provides :
1.	That the capital stock of the company he increased from $1,000,000 to $1,500,000.
2.	That the company may issue bonds to the amount of $1,125,000 instead of $500,000 as at present.
In both these cases there is a large increase in the bonding power. The reason, I understand, they gave was that they wished to improve their water power.
3.	That the company may acquire shares in the capital stock, debentures and securities of other electric companies ; and that the proviso be struck out of the original Act which provides that such stock, debentures or securities shall only be issued ' as the consideration for goods, wares or merchandise sold to such other companies in the ordinary course of business.'
That was all the privilege they were allowed in the use of their stock.
In 1898 the city granted a franchise to the Metropolitan Company of Ottawa, Ltd., authorizing that company to erect poles and wires for the purpose of supplying electric light and

power. Maximum rates for electric light and' power were fixed in that franchise.
The following clause was inserted in that franchise :-
15. That the said company shall not at any time during the said period amalgamate or combine with any other company or companies now carrying on or which may hereafter at any time during the said period carry on in the said city of Ottawa, the business of supplying electricity for the purpose of power, light or heat, nor shall the said company enter into any contract, agreement or arrangement with any such company for such purpose or that shall have such effect, nor shall the said company enter into any contract, agreement or arrangement with any such company for the purpose, or that may have the effect of creating a monopoly of the business of supplying electricity for the purpose aforesaid in the city of Ottawa, without the permission of the council of the corporation of the city of Ottawa, to be expressed by by-law.
Which they have not done ; they have expressed their opinion straight against it.
It will be seen that the purpose of this provision was to prevent the company obtaining the franchise, from amalgamating or selling out to any other electric light company. The terms of the franchise of the Metropolitan Company was for 21 years from 1898.
The Metropolitan Company not having entered upon the business of supplying electric light, heat and power, the city of Ottawa in 1901, gave a twenty-three year franchise to the Consumer's Electric Company, Ltd. In that franchise the maximum rates for commercial lighting and power were also fixed.
A similar proviso to that in the Metropolitan Company's franchise was inserted in the Consumer's franchise providing that the latter company should not amalgamate or sell out to any other electric light company.
That was to prevent a monopoly.
The object of the city of Ottawa in granting, first, the Metropolitan franchise, and then the Consumer's franchise, was to secure competition in electric lighting with the Ottawa Electric Company.
The city, at the time these franchises were granted, relied on the provision in the Ottawa Electric Company's Act of Incorporation, which provided that that company could only acquire the stock, debentures or securities of other electric companies ' as the consideration for goods, wares or merchandise sold to such other companies in the ordinary course of business.' It is now sought to have this protection to the city struck out.
When the Bill in question was before the Private Bills Committee an amendment was moved, that the ^ower to purchase stock in other companies should not apply to the stock of the Metropolitan or the Consumers' Company.	i | j
These are the only two other companies that are doing business in the same manner in Ottawa :
This amendment was lost by 19 to 14

Showing that tljere was not a very large attendance at the Private Bills Committee.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The refusal of the Ottawra Electric Company to accept this amendment, indicates clearly that the real purpose of the Bill is to enable the Ottawa Company to buy out the Metropolitan and the Consumers' Company or one of them.
The city of Ottawa submits that parliament should not enact legislation which will have the effect of taking away from the city the guarantee which it now has that there will be competition in the supply of electric light, heat and power ; and also submits that the amendment proposed in the Private Bills Committee should be inserted in the Bill.
The evident intention of the Bill is to enable the Metropolitan and the Consumers' Companies to get rid of the provisions against amalgamating or selling out to any other electric light company, which were inserted in these companies' franchises by the city for the express purpose of securing competition, and consequently low rates for electric lighting.
The only companies at present in existence in Ottawa whose stock can be purchased by the Ottawa Electric Company, in the event of the legislation now asked for by the latter company being granted, are the Metropolitan and the Consumers' Companies. If the Ottawa Electric Company does not want the legislation asked for. for the purpose of purchasing the stock of either or both of these companies, it cannot be prejudiced if the legislation is not granted at present. If it is required for the purpose of acquiring the stock in some company not yet in existence the legislation now asked for can be obtained when that company comes into existence.
Ottawa, 2nd June, 1904.


TAYLOR McVEITY,
[Stage Direction]
City Solicitor, Ottawa.
J. A. Ellis,
Mayor of Ottawa.
This is the requestion from the city of Ottawa which took good care that a clause should be inserted in the original Bill for the purpose of preventing amalgamation, for the purpose of preventing monopoly, and for the purpose of securing the supply of light in perpetuity at a fair figure. Now the promoters of this Bill come to parliament and ask to be relieved from that position while the corporation of the city of Ottawa who are above all others interested in this question ask that a clause shall be inserted in the Bill which will prevent this company from forcing a monopoly upon the people of Ottawa.
Richard Blain: My hon. friend from Ottawa (Mr. Birkett) has made a very important request of the committee, a request that the government of the day should listen to. It has been explained that when this question was before the Private Bills Committee 33 members were present and I am informed that the Mayor of Ottawa and an important delegation representing the, city were also present opposing this Bill. It is true that they were not successful before the committee, but 14 members of the committee out of 33 voted in favour of the citizens of Ottawa upon this question. The

people who are most to be considered in che discussion before the committee are the citizens of Ottawa themselves. I understand that before the committee there were no persons present very stronglv in favour of the passage of this legislation except members of the committee. In the committee of the whole Housg now we find that we have the two lion, members for the city of Ottawa present. One of those hon. members has spoken on behalf of the citizens in opposition to that Bill and the other hon. member has by his silence supported his contention. Therefore, we have a right to assume that the mayor and city council, representing the citizens of Ottawa, together with the two parliamentary representatives on the floor of this House are calling on the government of the day not to pass this Bill. I do not think that the government would attempt to override the opinions of the two members for Ottawa and the mayor and council and say that they understand this question very much better than the representatives of the city of Ottawa. Every man in Ottawa is interested in this Bill. As my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) has pointed out at this present moment they have competition iti lighting in their homes and in the public places of the city. If this Bill passes the lighting service goes into the hands of one huge monopoly. While I have said that the citizens are particularly interested in this Bill every hou. gentleman in this House who comes from a municipality in any part of Canada is also interested in the principle involved in this Bill.
I will be very much surprised if the government do not step in, as it is their duty to do. and say to those who are pressing this Bill in this hasty way : Whether the city council and the promoters of this Bill can agree or not, it will be our duty as the government of the day to ask them to come together again and see if they cannot come to some reasonable compromise by which the citizens of Ottawa will not for all time to come be placed in the hands of this monopoly. Whether it will be a monopoly or not it will leave the citizens of Ottawa in the hands of one company and we have instances in Canada to-day of the effect of this kind of legislation. In the great city of Toronto they have corporations which are oppressing the people and I think it is the duty of every hon. member of this House to stand up and say that in so far as parliament is concerned we will not in any wise assist any monopoly to monopolize the lighting in any city. May I be permitted to say further that the hon. the Solicitor General (Mr. Lemieux), who represented the government before the committee, stated that this was not a proper kind of legislation. We have had one member of the government who has spoken and he has spoken on behalf of the citizens of Ottawa and on behalf of the government too.
Therefore we have a right to assume that the government are in favour of allowing these corporations to come together again in order that they may have an opportunity of seeing if they cannot meet each other's wishes and give to the citizens of Ottawa some kind of legislation that will enable them to get cheaper lighting in years to come.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think that in the interest of all parties it would be only reasonable that this Bill should be referred back to the Private Bills Committee for further consideration. The hon. gentlemen who are representing the city of Ottawa know very well that it is opposed to public opinion. The corporation of the city of Ottawa is opposed to this legislation. It is not an unreasonable request under these circumstances to defer final action on this Bill until a meeting of the city council is held and some expression of opinion given. There is just one word more that I desire to say. 1 am advised that there is an express provision in the charter of the Consumers' Electric Light Company limiting the maximum price that they can charge the citizens of Ottawa for electric light. If it is the desire of both of these companies to amalgamate and come together-and I have no personal opinion about that matter as I suppose they know their own business best-it is not unreasonable to suggest that the same limitation as to price shall be enjoined on the consolidated company. That is fair. There is nothing unfair about it, and I appeal to the sense of justice of hon. gentlemen to allow this Bill to go back in order that some reasonable compromise may be reached between the parties that will be fair and just, and under which the citizens of Ottawa will not be mulcted in the future-I do not say they will-if one company gets complete possession of the iighting'of this city.
I ask the right hon. gentleman to agree, for the sake of harmony, to allow the Bill to go back.


Mr. HENDERSON.: If you will call it nine o'clock I shall not continue the discussion, but if the discussion is to continue permit me to say that, in my opinion, no stronger case has ever been made out against a Bill which is calculated to create a monopoly than has been made out tonight against the Bill now under the consideration of the committee. The hon. member for South Simcoe made a very strong appeal to the First Minister to stay "any further procedure on this Bill, and gave very cogent reasons for so doing. He stated that the right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) had years ago told us in this House that he proposed to make the city of Ottawa the Washington of the North.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


David Henderson: He stands by that to-day, and I think he cannot say that he

has not found the House on both sides in harmony with his desire.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


David Henderson: They did not offer opposition to it. We are spending in this city large sums of money for the purpose of beautifying it, and when It is proposed to place it under a monopoly in regard to its lighting and heating, 'I think it is time that the right hon. gentleman should call a halt. 1 do not want him to destroy what he has already accomplished. My hon. friend from Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster) asks me if they have trusts and monopolies of this kind in Washington. If they have I have not heard of them, but I do not for one moment presume that such legislation would be permitted in the city of Washington, and I consider that it would not reflect credit upon this House, upon the government, or upon the country, if the government, which is responsible for every' bit of legislation that passes this House, no matter whether it is private legislation or a government Bill, should permit a Bill of the character of that which is now before the committee to pass and become law. I consider that the Bill will cast a very serious reflection on this House, and I may say that it would establish a precedent which the government will long regret having permitted to be established. I do appeal to the right hon. the First Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), as a member of this House, not as a citizen of Ottawa, not to permit this to pass. I think the citizens of Ottawa are not being fairly treated. We have a statement put into our hands, which has been read by the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), signed by the mayor of Ottawa and the city solicitor of Ottawa, setting forth the views of the municipal council of that city. I do not know where we could get a stronger protest against the legislation now proposed. One of the members representing Ottawa in this parliament has entered his very strong protest ; the other hon. gentleman, when appealed to, has remained silent ; and I am afraid we will have to construe that silence into consent, and to infer that he is not in line with the citizens of this capital city of Ottawa. I do hope that the government will intervene, and that we will not be called upon at any time to look back to this as a precedent for permitting legislation of this character. The fact that the 'Solicitor General, one of the right hon. gentleman's colleagues, has, as I am informed, spoken against the Bill, I think is a very strong reason why the right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) should accept the suggestion of his colleague


Mr. SPEAKER.: The hour for private Bills being exhausted, the House Will resume in Committee of Supply.


David Henderson: 



[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Quarantine-steamers for service at Grosse isle, $30,000.
['I think we will take one or two Bills, and if we go into the estimates, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will submit his estimates.']
Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is a new item for a large amount.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have one government steamer at Grosse Isle which is used for going out to meet incoming vessels. The service there requires two vessels, one to be used by the officers in meeting vessels for purposes of inspection and another, which is equipped with the disinfecting apparatus, so that at any time when a vessel needs to be disinfected the steamer fitted with the disinfecting apparatus may be laid up against her and per form the disinfection. This vessel also does the work of carrying people to and from quarantine, and also of conveying them from quarantine to Quebec, where we have to deliver them after their release. For some years back we have been chartering vessels for these purposes. It has been almost impossible to get a suitable vessel, and we have felt that it was necessary to procure a vessel of our own instead of being dependent on chartered vessels. This last year I was paving, and the present year I am paying no less than $4,200 for the use of a vessel for the season, and I have to pay the crew and the equipment and expenses as well. I felt that that was a bad paying business for the country. I therefore ask for a vote which will enable me to purchase a vessel and keep her and manage her for this purpose, so as to be relieved in the future of this heavy charge.


Mr. POPE.: Has this vessel been ordered ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No steps will be taken in regard to the purchase of the vessel until I am authorized by the House to do so.


Rufus Henry Pope: Has the minister any estimate to show that this amount will be sufficient ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is based on the supposed value of a vessel of the character we require. I am informed that such a vessel could be built for this price.


Rufus Henry Pope: Is it your intention to get a new boat ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If possible, for this price or anything near this price, I would get a boat built in Canada, or purchase one that would be practically a new boat. I Would not buy an old boat.


Rufus Henry Pope: Will you ask for tenders ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, unless possibly it may be built in the government yard at Sorel. I would utilize the officers of the government for this purpose. We have in the Marine Department, experts who have been in the

bn bit of purchasing or securing vessels for the government.


Richard Blain: Has the hon. minister made any estimate of what it would cost fo equip the vessel and keep it in operation for twelve months ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: At the present time, when we charter a vessel, we have to furnish a crew, purchase the coal and supplies, and run ihe vessel. I am paying $4,200 for the season.


Rufus Henry Pope: What system have you adopted-by tender or otherwise ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have searched for a suitable vessel, and I have had difficulty in finding one. Two years ago I chartered one, and after an experience of two seasons, she was condemned. A little over a year ago another vessel was chartered, and it was practically the only vessel my officers could find in the St. Lawrence that was at all suitable for this work.


Mr. T. I. THOMSON.: Has the minister any vessel in view at present ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not one. I do not know where I could get one.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: It is the minister's intention, then, if he purchases one, to purchase it on the advice of the government officials ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: All I can say is that if they do not purchase vessels with any greater success than they sell them, I think it would be much better to take the matter out of their hands. Last session I [DOT]called attention to the sale of a splendid steamer, the Bayfield, which had been engaged in the survey of the Georgian bay, for $3,250. If the policy of the government is to purchase vessels on the same principle on which they sell them, it would be far better to place the business in the hands of anybody but the government officials. In view of our experience of the past, I think it would be well to have full information before we pass this item.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot give more information than I have already, stated. I must make use of the government officers for such work. I have not in my department any expert upon vessels. The Department of Marine and Fisheries has amongst its officers men whose judgment is used by the government for this purpose. I confess that I am in ignorance of the details of what the hon. gentleman is alluding to, as it is not in my *department; consequently I cannot give any answer in regard to that. But jus't as in a matter of law I would consult the department of justice, so in a matter of purchasing vessels, I would secure the best information I could from the Department of Marine *which is charged with such matters.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: - The case to which I refer is one in which the government official valued the vessel at $8,000 and the minister sold it for $3,250. So that the advice of the officer was of little avail.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I can assure the hon. gentleman that I would try to follow the advice which the expert would give me.


Mr. ARMAND LAYERGNE.: Will the vessel be commanded by the same officer who
commands the vessel at present ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The vessel will be under the command of the officer at Grosse Isle, whoever he is.


David Henderson: It occurs to me that possibly the hon. the Minister of Agriculture has not in his department men who may be regarded as experts in, marine matters. It seems a strange combination that a farmer should be called upon to purchase a vessel. To my mind, instead of the hon. gentleman undertaking the purchase of a vessel through the officers of his department, it would be better to hand it over to some other department where there are men experienced in marine matters, and let them furnish the vessel for the hon. gentleman. I am aware that the hon. gentleman's deputy is a lawyer, and consequently w oil Id not be able to give an opinion on a vessel any more than he would on matters of agriculture. I do not think the hon. minister is going about this matter in the right way.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend has not been listening to what I said. I said a few minutes ago that I had not in my dej>art-ment experts on such matters, and that just as I would consult the Department of Justice on a legal question, so I will consult the Department of Marine in regard to the purchase or building a vessel. The vote is in my estimates simply because it is a vote for the administration of my department. I have already got vessels there. When 1 chartered the vessels which I have at present, I took the opinion of an officer of the Marine Department as to her fitness, her seaworthiness, and her condition. All that my officers were able to say was what they needed, then the expert had to decide whether such * and such a vessel was fitted for the work. So it will be in this case.


David Henderson: I must apologize to the hon. minister. I confess I did not hear him make the statement, but am glad to know that for once he and I are of the same mind.


Richard Blain: Do I understand the hon. gentleman to say that the outside charge on the country for performing the service last year was $4,000 ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I said that $4,200 was the price paid for the charter of the vessel.


Richard Blain: How much for equipping and running it during the twelve months?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There are two boats at Grosse Isle quarantine station-one belonging to the government and this other one which is chartered. We have a crew which is able to run the two boats. Sometimes one boat is lying at the wharf and sometimes they are both out together, and we have sufficient crew to take both out at the same time. The crews work interchangeably just as the exigencies of the work require. There is a captain and a first mate. When both vessels are out, the one takes charge of the one and the other of the other. It would be rather difficult to say actually how much each costs. The difference between the new and the old conditions would be simply the difference between the charter price and the interest on the cost of the new vessel and the wear and tear. "We have our own disinfecting apparatus, which we will put on the new vessel when we get it built.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend has stated that the cost of the new boat will be approximately $30,000. What the committee is entitled to is a statement as to what it will cost to equip and run a new vessel during twelve months.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am afraid it would be very difficult to give that. Take for instance, the' engineers, there is a staff of engineers at Grosse Isle. They are all marine engineers. That is to say, they can work an engine on a boat. They not only run the engines of these two boats but also the engines on shore, which does the work of the station. There are a chief engineer and three assistants, and a certain number of stokers and deck hands who work all around. I would have to add up the wages of these and establish what amount should be charged to each boat before I could give an answer.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend is making a complete change of policy. The policy in the past has been to charter a vessel, but he now asks the committee to vote $30,000 to purchase one. He is unable to give the committee the probable cost of equipping and running the new vessel for twelve months. Is this a step in the direction of economy and to what extent is it such a step?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: To this extent. We paid last year $4,200, the same as this year, to charter a vessel. The interest on $30,000 would be probably three per cent. Then there is an allowance for wear and tear which, not being an expert, I cannot estimate.	,


Thomas Earle: Ten per cent.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That would be again $3,-
000.	making a total of $3,900 for wear and tear and interest as against $4,200 rent. Otherwise the service is just the same. In addition we will have the advantage of having just such a vessel as we need, always on hand.


Richard Blain: 


Mr.   ROPE@: It is peculiar that not only on this but on other occasions, the hon. minister lays down a proposition and then when we ask for information, we find he has not studied the question sufficiently to give us the information and advice we are entitled to from one who asks for a lot of money. We had that difficulty last night, and I was in hopes we would not have it again. The hon. gentleman says the purchase of this boat is in the direction of economy, but when asked what it will cost for her maintenance from year to year-not to run her or to furnish her with supplies-but her maintenance, he says he does not know. If he does not, he is not justified in saying that this new policy is in the direction of economy. If he were to tell us that the boat was absolutely essential, no matter what it cost, that this government should own another boat, that would be another question, but the only reason he gives is that it is in the interests of economy, and he has taken so little trouble to ascertain the facts that he admits his inability to state what the annual wear and tear would cost. He should have had his statement carefully prepared so that he could have shown us what the figures were, which warrant the purchase of this boat, but the only practical information we got was from the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Earle) who said that the wear and tear would cost ten per cent. Take the life of a steamer during ten years and you have a cost at the outset of $30,000 for the purchase of the boat and then $30,000 for wear and tear, amounting to $60,000. This is an important question, and 1 think hon. members are entitled to information which would enable them to determine whether there was economy in this purchase or not.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Has the minister any idea, what the dimensions of the vessels are that he proposes to acquire for this service ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The estimate is based on the cost of a vessel the length of which- speaking from memory-would be 110 feet and the width 25 or 26 feet with a depth sufficient for proper stability in a rough sea such as we have at Grosse Isle.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: If a vessel is required, I believe it is better that the government should have one of their own, and a good one at that. But whether that would be in the interest of economy or not, I have no means of judging. I notice, however, that the ' Constance,' which is employed in the fishery service costs for maintenance $23,341. She was built in Canada, at Owen Sound and she is a first-class ship.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: What does the hon. gentleman include under ' maintenance ?'


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: That is what it cost for staff and for all that is required for the vessel during the season.


Richard Blain: I suppose the hon. gentleman could tell us the estimated life of a vessel such as he proposes to acquire.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Speaking in general terms I should expect that if a fair allowance, say ten per cent were made for keeping the vessel in a good state of repair her life would be prolonged ; that at the end of ten or fifteen years, she would be practically as good as when put in commission. If her life were relatively short, it would be because this ten per cent was not expended on her.


Mr.  T. I.@: THOMSON- The 'Constance,' the 'Curlew,' and the 'Petrel' were all built at Owen Sound thirteen years ago, and they are all as sea-worthy and as fine vessels to-day as they were when they left the dock.


Richard Blain: The minister says the life of the vessel would be ten years


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I made no such statement.


Richard Blain: I thought I was giving
what the minister had said.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If the hon. gentleman had been listening to my explanation, instead of speaking to some one else, he would have understood better, I said that if $3,000 a year or ten per cent of the original cost were allowed for keeping the vessel in repair her life w'ould be extremely prolonged.


Richard Blain: The hon. minister surely would not say that that is a fair explanation. He must admit that my question was a reasonable one. He proposes to spend $30,000 on a vessel and, when asked what her life is expected to be, he says it may be a prolonged life. Does that mean twenty-five years or fifty years ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The ' Challenger ' has been running for seventeen years and she is, apparently as good as she was the day she was launched. She has been kept in repair, the timbers, &c., in her being renewed from time to time as was found necessary. And I think that any vessel kept in that way would be as good at the end of twenty-five years, practically, as she was at the beginning. Of course, if she were allowed to get into bad order, it would be because the ten per cent for repairs had not been spent on her. So, I give what seems a fair charge for the maintenance of the vessel- and, in that, of course, I include nothing for crew or anything of that kind, but simply the maintenance of the capital account of the vessel.


Richard Blain: I suppose we must accept that. The hon. minister will not be afraid to meet that statement in days to come, for he can get on any side of it.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: If I have to buy another vessel in twenty-five years I shall be open to criticism.


Richard Blain: The hon. gentleman need not worry about that. We will not leave him the chance.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not want it.


Richard Blain: I think it would be in the interest of the country that a new vessel' should be purchased rather than an old one. The suggestion of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) in that respect is a good one. The hon. member for North Grey (Mr. T. I. Thomson) has told us how the government deal in old vessels, and we are not altogether satisfied with that. Perhaps the hon. minister will give us the assurance that he will purchase a new vessel and that it shall be constructed in Canada.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The vessel will be purchased or constructed in Canada, if the proper vessel can be found in Canada, or if tenders can be got from Canadian builders. I will not go abroad for a vessel unless absolutely forced to do so.


Mr. OSLER.: I think it is proper that a vessel should be owned by the government for this service. But I think that a vessel should not be purchased. There are many vessels all over the lakes that are not quite up to modern ideas or that are worn out, yet that are quite presentable and might be foisted upon the government by political friends. The minister shakes his head, but he is human as I am.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Quite.


Edmund Boyd Osler: The government can get a new vessel constructed in Canada nearly if not quite as cheaply as it can be built anywhere else. Our fleets on Lake Superior have been built at our own ports by Canadian labour and they are the best vessels on the lakes to-day. And I am Canadian enough to say that, even if it costs a thousand or two more the government should get the vessel built in Canada by our own labourers rather than go outside. But when the government are proposing an expenditure like this, which, speaking for myself, I regard as a proper expenditure, I think they ought to have a new vessel and not run any risks involved in buying an old one, no matter how favourable the conditions may apparently be. It should be a modern vessel, built for the purpose proposed, and built in Canada.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am ready to say that I will secure a new vessel. It may be that the vessel will be purchased, one that is a year or two old, but I can assure my hon. friend that I will not purchase any old vessel for this work. If I cannot find a suitable vessel that is not more than a year or two old, and perfectly sound in every respect, I shall certainly give instructions for the building of a new vessel for this service, and I shall exhaust all efforts to get it constructed in Canada.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I do not think the minister can purchase an old second-hand vessel for the particular purpose he has in view, that will be as suitable as a new vessel would be, he cannot buy an old vessel that , will answer the purpose.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is qfiite possible.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I think myself it is desirable we should get a new vessel for this purpose. I am also satisfied it should be a vessel constructed in Canada. Tenders should be asked for a vessel to be built in Canada. Then we will have a good vessel and one that will be worthy the government. I think if the minister would assure ns that he will have a new vessel constructed in sieel and constructed in Canada, he will meet with the entire approval of the committee.


Rufus Henry Pope: I think the minister ought to give us that assurance, that it will be a Canadian built boat. We have our own ship yards, for instance at Sorel. I hope the minister will give us that assurance.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think the assurance I have given practically amounts to that.
Quarantine, steamer for service at Victoria, B.C., $20,000.


Thomas Earle: Would the minister give us some explanation.
* Mr. FISHER. My hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Earle) knows very well that the vessel now in use there is an old vessel, and has been the subject of a good deal of repairing for several years back. I do not think it will pay to go on repairing her. I am satisfied from the reports I have received from the representatives of the Department of Marine and Fisheries and from the officer of this department, that she is too old to be worth repairing much longer. I therefore ask for a sum of money to purchase a new steamer which will be suitable for the work there-to build or purchase one, as the case may be. I do not think there is any steamer in British Columbia that we can purchase for this service, and if so, we shall have to make arrangements for building one in those waters.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Will it be a steel vessel or a wooden vessel ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will act on the advice of those who are familiar with the conditions as to whether it shall be a wooden or a steel vessel. I am not prepared myself to give an opinion on that point. I do not know whether there are facilities in British Columbia for building a steel vessel, at the same time, I think such a vessel ought to be built in British Columbia. A vessel of this kind could not easily be taken around the Horn. I would like to see her built in British Columbia, but I will leave it to those who are experts in such matters to decide as to the character of the vessel. I may say this to my hon. friend from Victoria, Mr. FISHER.
that when I put $20,000 in the estimates I thought it would be sufficient to obtain such a vessel as is needed there ; but since these estimates were prepared, representations have been made to me by my officers at that station that a larger vessel would be required, one that it would not be possible to purchase for $20,000, and suggesting tnat this item be largely increased. On these representations I think it is quite likely that 1 should ask for a larger-sum in the supplementary estimates. The service there requires a very staunch vessel. Frequently she has to go out in very stormy weather to meet ships, and the passage from Victoria is exposed to heavy winds. The suggestion is made that a vessel fully suitable for that work cannot be obtained for $20,000 on the British Columbia coast. If that Is the case, I should have to ask for a supplementary estimate ; but in the meantime I ask that this item be granted to me, and I assure the committee that I will carefully look into the matter and get the best advice I can from ship building experts as to what the cost of such a vessel is likely to be.


Thomas Earle: I quite agree with the minister in his remarks about the old steamer that has been in use at the quarantine station at Victoria. I think I am safe in saying that at the present time the government have spent upon her four or five times her original cost. She has never been thoroughly fitted for that service.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: She was on the service when I came into office.


Thomas Earle: Quite so. I may explain that she was bought under peculiar circumstances, at a time when she was the only boat that could be procured in order to introduce the system they have now of fumigating and so forth. I am quite satisfied that $20,000 is not sufficient to procure such a boat ns is required. But independently of that service, I may mention another to which it could be put. The hon. gentleman is aware of the terrible calamity that occurred in the harbour of Victoria a few months ago by which 50 or 60 lives were lost. It was claimed by the citizens of Victoria that had a proper vessel been available to go to their assistance every life might have been saved. It has been suggested to the Marine and Fisheries Department that in building a boat for the quarantine service, she should be fitted up with life-saving apparatus so that she might be utilized in case of need for that purpose. A society has been organized there now for the purpose of establishing a life-saving station, and it has been suggested I think, to the Marine Department, by my colleague (Mr. Riley) and also I think by Senator Templeman, that with a somewhat greater expense the steamer doing quarantine service might be made available for the purpose of saving life in any accident that might occur in the im-, mediate neighbourhood. As I understand it,

the quarantine steamer is always under steam ; if not, it could be kept continuously under steam at very little cost, and would always be available in case of accidents occurring upon the coast. 1 would suggest to the hon. gentleman that he consult with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries .with a view to co-operating in securing a boat that would serve as a life-saving boat as well as doing the quarantine service.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I may say to my hon. friend that the proposition which he has just made has not been made to me. I suppose it. must have been made to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


Thomas Earle: I had supposed that it had been made to the hon. Minister of Agriculture, but I presume I was mistaken. Undoubtedly it has been made to the government.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I would be very glad indeed to consult with my colleague about the matter, and 1 think it would be quite within the possibilities to manage the service of a quarantine boat at Williams Head in such a way that she would be available, as my hon. friend suggests, for any emergency in the way of a wreck or anything of that kind. The quarantine service to-day is pretty exacting. The vessel has to keep up steam all the time, but at the same time in an emergency I think she might be spared for the quarantine station for a few hours or half a day to give assistance to vessels in distress without interfering witli her work-in connection with quarantine. It may be more expensive to get such a vessel as the hon. gentleman speaks of, but I have no doubt it will be quite admissible, and while it may not be correctly or properly charged to ^he quarantine service, still, in the interest of humanity and of the people generally, I think it would be quite justifiable to increase the expenditure, and I should be very glad to consider it carefully. For such a purpose I would have to get a larger vote than the ordinary quarantine service calls for, but such an increased expenditure might be well entered upon.


Mr.   BEAIN@: My hon. friend has made the statement that he proposes to ask for a supplementary estimate.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I said ' probably.'


Richard Blain: The item we are discussing now is :
Steamer for service at Victoria, B.C., $20,000.
My hon. frielid has in the service at the present moment an old vessel on which there has been expended a considerable amount of money during his term of office.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: And before.


Richard Blain: And my hon. friend says that something was spent before he came into office. That may be true, and I sup 3311
pose it is. The point I wish to object to is that members on this side of the House during the past two or three years have been making constant complaint against the government because of this kind of a policy. Ministers come forward with an estimate and ask the committee to vote a certain amount. In this case it is $20,000, and even while the committee is considering the question, even before the amount is voted, the hon. Minister of Agriculture stands up in his place and says that it will not be sufficient. He says that he will have to ask for a supplementary estimate to be added to this. Does my hon. friend think that is a fair policy V


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think that is very honest.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend thinks it is a very honest policy. I rather disagree with him on that point. I think it would be a still better policy for the hon. gentleman to enter into a consideration of this question before he brings down his estimates at all, to make a thorough and complete examination into the whole matter and bring down to the committee a report showing that the old vessel is insufficient for the service, and then make a statement to the committee as to how much we are likely to get for her if she is sold. What does my hon. friend say


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I was wondering how much.


Mr SPROULE.: If the same method of selling tlie vessel is adopted as that which was adopted at Owen Sound, it will not be much.


Richard Blain: We have been dealing in old vessels before, and the results have been rather unsatisfactory to the House, but we will not charge the hon. minister with that just now. I enter my protest against this kind of a policy. It is the duty of the hon. minister to bring down a fair statement of the amount that is required for this service. The hon. minister asks for $20,000, and while he is asking for it he makes a further statement that it will be insufficient and that he will have to ask for a supplementary estimate. That is not a business proposition, and coining from what was regarded once as a business government, we are not quite willing to accept that kind of a policy. 1 think the hon. gentleman should ask that this item stand and bring down at some future date a fair statement of the amount which will be sufficient to complete this work, and not ask us to vote $20,000 now and in a week or two, or a few weeks, come forward and ask for $20,000 more. 1 am quite sure that the hon. gentleman does not think this is a business policy, and I am surprised that the hon. gentleman would attempt to introduce into his department a policy that the opposition have been complaining of and which has been very gen-

erally adopted in other departments of this government.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I appreciate the compliment paid me by the hon. gentleman when he says that this has not been the policy of my department, and I can assure him that he has not found me out to-day in this either. When I put in the item of $20,000, I based the estimate on procuring a vessel of about the same class and character as the vessel that we now have, which, if she were a new vessel, or in first rate order, would be very nearly able to do the work. I believed, from the information I received, that with $20,000 I would be able to secure such a vessel as that. I have since had representations from my officer there asking for a larger vessel. My hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Earle) has suggested here to-night another scheme which would require a still larger vessel and a still greater expenditure. When such a matter as this has to be discussed and decided upon, and when the whole question has to be considered, including the suggestion of my hon. friend from Victoria, it would be quite impossible for me at this date, but perhaps within a few weeks, and I hope the session will be over by that time, I shall be able to get an item prepared which will definitely and clearly show to the House exactly, and even approximately, what such a vessel would cost. I think my hon. friend will justify me in having supposed, when these items were brought in, as they were some three months ago now, that this was sufficient, and I expected it to be sufficient. I have now found that from the requests which have been made to me for something more than that which was made to me before from Victoria-requests which I did not have before me when these estimates were made-that I will require something more, and therefore it is that I expect, as I stated to my hon. friend a little while ago, that, while I expected to do with this sum of $20,000 when I prepared 'these estimates because of the information and requests that have reached me since, which in fact seem to be so reasonable that I will have to accede to them, I will have to ask for a supplementary vote to enable me to get a larger steamer. I think that is very honest and perfectly clear, and I do not think it justifies the reflection which the hon. gentleman has cast on the preparation of my estimates.


Richard Blain: That is an explanation which 1 think is not at all satisfactory to the committee. The hon. gentleman says that he proposes to purchase a new vessel in the west, a vessel to do work in and around Victoria and Vancouver.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No ; Victoria alone.


Richard Blain: Victoria alone. Well, in the quarantine district. I suppose my hon. friend would not dare to say that he is proposing Mr. BLAIN.
to purchase this vessel upon his own information without consulting the representatives in Victoria city ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not remember that I consulted the representatives of Victoria city.


Richard Blain: I mean the representatives of the government in the west who have brought these further requests to the attention of the government.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I intended to purchase this vessel upon facts which I knew, and which I did not require any representatives to tell me. I know that the ' Earle,' the vessel there now in the service, is no longer fit for her work, and that she must be replaced as soon as possible. On that ground alone, simply as a matter of administration in my department, finding a vessel which was used a great deal and which cost a great deal for repairs and was no longer worth repairing, the estimate was prepared. That information was at my command, and other requests in regard to further and larger vessels had not been received when these estimates were prepared.


Richard Blain: That simply emphasizes the weakness of the policy adopted by the hon. gentleman. He has stated that without consultation with the representatives of the government in the west, he has put in an item of $20,000 for the purchase of a vessel. As soon as that item is put in the estimates a further request comes from the officers in the west whom he should have consulted and from whom he should have obtained full information before putting the item in at all. Now my hon. friend says that after the $20,000 have been placed in the estimates a request comes from, the district where the vessel is to be used. The hon. gentleman should have received these representations before he attempted to deal with the matter at all. He should have consulted these people and should have bad full information before the item was put in. Then the hon. gentleman would have been able to put in an amount that would cover the total cost and the committee would be satisfied. I am sure he will see that his explanation rather weakens his case.


Thomas Earle: I would say to the minister that before he brings down his supplementary estimates. I trust he will consult the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine) with regard to the matter I brought up.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Certainly.


Thomas Earle: I am entirely satisfied that $20,000 would not build a boat able to do the quarantine work. In the instance I speak of. all of these lives were sacrificed because there was no boat there able to go out. The ' Earle ' was called for but they

declined to send her out as she was utterly unfit for such a sea and the people were drowned right in sight of land because of the want of a boat fit to go out in storms such as we sometimes have there. A good boat is required.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend knows that that disaster occurred since these estimates were prepared.


Mr. PORTER.: I was not aware that we had a boat to dispose of in the west. Two vessels have been disposed of by the government in the town in which I live and in both cases they have been, sold for very much less than what the officer of the government said they were worth. The last of these steamers was sold for very- much less than one-half what the officer of the government said it was worth. The officer estimated its value at $8,000 but it was sold by private sale for $3,250.	1 do not think any one in
the business was aware that the vessel was for sale. A notice in one of the local papers costing a dollar would have brought $6,000 or $7,030 for the boat. I have been talking to some captains and they said they would have given $5,000 for the hull. This boat was sold by the government at private sale, without tender or notice for $3,250. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will not repeat that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We do better in the west.


Edward Guss Porter: I would like to know if he will endeavour to get as much for the vessel as possible, to get its value any' way,


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will.


Edward Guss Porter: It will not be sold in a secret manner?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will assure the hon. gentleman it will not be sold in any secret manner.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I regard this as a very loose manner of voting money. It is not a proper discharge of duty by a minister of the Crown. The duty of the minister as I understand it. in voting money for any purpose, especially for a new undertaking is to submit to the House a well prepared estimate of what the country is being committed to. and will be expected to pay in the aggregate. We are asked here for $20,000 to commence the building of a vessel, but we do not know whether it will cost $30,000 or $1,000,000 in fact we have no information at all. We have so often in this House committed ourselves to undertakings that turned out entirely different to what the government anticipated they would that it makes us rather chary in voting such an item to-night. The government must have known through its officers that this vote is needed, and the lack of information shows disregard of that courtesy with which parliament should be treated. I think the vessel should be built either in British Columbia or down here and preferably by our own men.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It will have to be built there, it could not be taken out.


Thomas Earle: I think they can build a vessel there. They have just completed one there for the Admiralty* which is very satisfactory.


Rufus Henry Pope: Have they a ship-building yard there ?


Thomas Earle: Yes.


Rufus Henry Pope: I do not see why we should not have an assurance that the boat will be built in Canada.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It will be built in British Columbia.	*
Cattle quarantines and veterinary division,


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This is the usual quarantine vote, the same as we had last current year and I hope the service will be carried out in just the same method as for the last year. The work has been onerous, but I think on the whole extremely successful. Difficulties have arisen and are constantly arising but by the energy of the officer and by the skill and knowledge of our inside staff on the whole I may congratulate the committee (hat the health of the animals it better than it is in most countries. This fact is largely* due to the measures of prevention and sanitation which our officers have been able to carry out. The work is two-fold in its character :	first, the prevention of the importation of disease into our animals from outside the country, and secondly*, the looking after, along certain lines and in certain ways, the health and sanitation of our domestic live stock.


Mr.   GITMOTJR@: I suppose this quarantine applies all along the line from coast to coast but more particularly the line out in the Territories ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: within the range of possibility that tick infested cattle entering the country during the summer months might be the means of introducing the disease, and of causing considerable loss before the first frost put a stop to its ravages.
He also states that several officers on the line and others south of the line tell how difficult it is to have these cattle properly inspected. Even after inspection, they may in a short time turn out to be affected with the Texas fever tick. He also cites Dr. Salmon to the effect that animals coming in have been found to be affected, and that a carload was known to have gone into Canada and was there at the date of his report, in October, 1003. After setting forth the dangers, Dr. Rutherford says :
I propose to make a further investigation of the whole subject during the coming winter, and hope to be in a position to recommend a definite policy before the trade recommences next spring.
I would ask the minister If he has fully considered the subject, and if be is prepared, the season is now on when these cattle will be coming in, to state what he has done to meet this danger to our cattle, not only in the west, but all over the country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am glad to be able to inform my bon. friend that Dr. Rutherford has been able to carry out bis intention as expressed in liis report. He has made the necessary investigation, and has promulgated regulations covering the point alluded to. These regulations were issued in March last, and deal with the importations from Mexico. These cattle are first of all carefully inspected at the United States frontier by the United States authorities. They then come through the United States in bond, and are again inspected by our inspectors. Section 54 of these regulations says :
Any person contemplating the importation of animals from Mexico, must, in addition to all other requirements of this order, first obtain from the minister a permit stating the number and kind of animals to be imported, the district and state in Mexico whence they are to be shipped, and the probable .date of their arrival at the Canadian port of entry. The person applying for such permit shall furnish satisfactory proof of the facts hereinbefore set forth.
Then, section 55 provides :
Animals passing in bond through United States territory for importation to Canada must be accompanied by a certificate of health signed by a veterinarian of the United States Bureau of Animal Industry and by an aflidavit from the owner or importer that the said certificate refers to the animals in question. Such animals shall nevertheless be subject to inspection and if necessary to detention before being permitted to enter Canadian territory. If found diseased such animals are to be Mr. GILMOUR.
subject to and dealt with according to the orders of the inspecting officer under instructions from the Veterinary Director General. The expense of treatment, should such be deemed advisable, must be borne by the otvner or importer of the animals treated.
We consider that this regulation will completely cover the cases referred to by my hon. friend. My hon. friend spoke of some animals having come in last year. There was an importation, but we held the animals on the borders of Canada and quarantined them for the necessary time before they were liberated. The result of that has been satisfactory, because there has been no suggestion that they brought in any disease. They came through after inspection by the American authorities. The details of the importation are contained In the report. We were notified by the Washington authorities of their coming, and we held them because of the uncertainty of the matter at that time. The regulations which I have just read had not been promulgated, and we could not act upon them ; but we took the steps we did under the general regulations to guard against these animals bringing disease into the country.


Mr. GILMOUR.: At how many, points can animals come into the country ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have adopted a new plan all along the frontier, providing that animals shall be allowed to come in only at certain ports, and at each of these ports we have an Inspector :
The following customs ports are hereby declared to be animals' quarantine stations, and all animals imported Into Canada subject to quarantine must be entered through said stations, viz.:-Halifax, N.S., St. John, N.B., Charlottetown, P.E.I., Quebec, Sherbrooke and St. Johns, Que.; Niagara Falls, Windsor and Sarnia, Ont.; Emerson, Man.; North Portal, Wood Mountain, Pendant d'Oreilie, Coutts and Cards-ton, N.W.T.; Gateway, Rossland, Nelson, Grand Forks, Vancouver and Victoria, B.C.


James Gilmour: Are there sufficient yards to detain them properly ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We are having these provided as rapidly as possible.


William James Roche: Are these the only points at which officers are stationed ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have other inspectors ; but these are the only ports at which animals subject to quarantine are allowed to come in.


William James Roche: Have you many of those other Inspectors ? Are they stationed at certain points on salaries at so much per month and at what points ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have a number of inspection points as well as quarantine station points. Animals subject to inpsection only but not to quarantine may enter at the following ports. There is a long list here :

Pictou, North Sydney and Yarmouth, N.S.; I St. Stephens, Woodstock and McAdam June-tion, N.B.; Comin's Mills, Lake Megantic, Coaticook, Stanstead Junction, Mansonville, Abercorn, St. Armand, Rouses Point, Athel-stan and Dundee, Que.; Cornwall, Prescott, Brockville, Toronto, BridgeJiurg, Sault Ste. Marie and Port Arthur, Ont.; Gretna, Morden, Mowbray, Crystal City, Killarney, Deloraine, Melita and Winnipeg, Man.; Rykerts, Waneta, Midway, Sidley, Sumas, New Westminster, Douglas and Nanaimo, B.C.


William James Roche: You have inspectors at all these ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, not resident there, hut those are the points of inspection where we can have the cattle inspected any time they come in.


William James Roche: Are the physicians paid by fees ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


James Gilmour: Are the veterinaries under the minister's charge or under the charge of the mounted police ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The work in the Territories is done by the veterinaries of _ the mounted police almost wholly. Sometimes we have to employ civilians, when there is too much work, but the police do practically all the work. The prestige of the police and their acquaintance with the country enables them to do the work very satisfactorily.


James Gilmour: I am pleased to see steps taken to have these incoming cattle subjected to strict inspection. I think even more stringent means should be adopted to safeguard the interests of the people of the Northwest. It must be borne in mind that although 23,000 head of cattle come in, they come in for the benefit of a very few people, and the interests of the great majority are opposed to their admission.


Rufus Henry Pope: How is it these regulations have just been published ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They were issued in March under Order in Council.


Rufus Henry Pope: Why were they not issued under Order in Council iii March a year ago ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Because we had not the Information necessary and the new Act was only passed last session on which these regulations are founded.


Rufus Henry Pope: But you had the Disease and Cattle Act, which is pretty much the same thing.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We had regulations then.


Rufus Henry Pope: I understood the hon. minister to say that the yards were being built as rapidly as possible for the accommodation of these cattle.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, because the regulations require that the animals should only come in at those points and these were only issued in March. We could not make the regulations until we had studied out the work and conditions.


Rufus Henry Pope: Do I understand that under the old Act you had no power to make these regulations 1


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, but we did not require to do it at that time. We have worked out new regulations entirely. The trade only came up last year from Mexico.


Rufus Henry Pope: There were cattle imported from Mexico before last year. We discussed this question last year somewhat and the danger was then pointed out. I congratulate the department upon having at last taken action in the matter and the medical officer on the new departure he has taken ?


William James Roche: Do I understand that there was practically little or no disease produced by the cattle imported from Mexico and the other side into the Territories ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There was no outbreak of disease that-we know anything of among the cattle imported from the other side of the line.


William James Roche: Can the hon. gentleman say as much with regard to the horses?
Mi-. FISHER. Not with the same certainty, because there is some discussion with regard to them in the Territories at present.


Rufus Henry Pope: They' had some severe criticisms of that importation there with regard to mange and other disease.


Mr. HACKETT.: What quantity of cattle was quarantined at Charlottetown last year ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: From the report of the officer there appears to have been none. There was one standard brood mare and six Suffolk sheep imported from the United States.


Edward Hackett: What officer has charge of the service ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Dr. Leckie.


Edward Hackett: I see by the Auditor General's Report that he was paid during twelve months at $12.50 a month. What has he been doing during those twelve months ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend must not forget that in addition to the importations there are exports which have to be passed upon by the officer iu charge. There were 57 horses, 1,131 cattle, 3,659 sheep and 64 swine exported fror i Charlottetown, all of

which had to pass under his inspection. My hon. friend would be one of the first to complain if we did not have a quarantine officer at Charlottetown.


Edward Hackett: I would like to ask what has been paid to Mr. Pethick ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Dr. Pethick has been the general officer of the department for Prince Edward Island and has done a great deal of work also in Nova Scotia and elsewhere. These items are for expenses, and, in addition he has a salary of $"00 a year which does not seem to be included in this particular item in the Auditor General's Report. Dr. Pethick does a great deal of travelling on the Island and in .Nova Scotia, and sometimes in New Brunswick and Quebec. He is on the regular staff and does whatever the department may require, wherever he may be sent, though he resides in Prince Edward Island and he would be first called upon for work in that province.


Edward Hackett: Dr. Pethick, according [DOT] to this item, employed a French interpreter at $1.50 a day for eleven days. What was that interpreter required for ?[DOT]


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that Dr. (Pethick was sent to the Gaspe coast, in Quebec, because of an outbreak of hog cholera. The people there are French and I suppose the interpreter was needed.


Edward Hackett: But why should that be charged against Prince Edward Island ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It appears in the Prince Edward Island items because Dr. Pethick's residence is in Prince Edward Island.


Edward Hackett: So, the minister charges against Prince Edward Island and expenses incurred by this officer anywhere in the service of the government ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not know that it matters very much. I have given the reason why it appears under the heading of Prince Edward Island.


Edward Hackett: I was amazed to see this item in the Auditor General's Report, because there is no necessity for a French interpreter in Prince Edward Island. People there can speak the English language. I think it a mistake to have made in our accounts a charge for a French Interpreter, making it appear that an interpreter is necessary in the communications between Dr. Pethick and the people of that province.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am glad the explanation has come out.


William James Roche: I do not wish at this late hour to open the discussion as to the importation of horses, which has been up on previous occasions; but I would like to find out from the minister if the government have decided to acquiese in the request of the Horse-breeders' Association and those interested in horse breeding in Mr. FISHER.
the Northwest to raise the minimum valuation for horses imported from the United States. The hon. minister does not wish to discuss the tariff, nor do I, but I think that on this item some explanation will be given. I see by the report that upwards of 32,000 horses, many of them inferior horses, no doubt, were imported from the United States during the last fiscal year into the Northwest Territories. I am led to believe that many of these are smuggled, in fact I understand the reports of the officials of the government have been to that effect, and I understand that this smuggling is made all the easier because there is no penalty except a fine-no confiscation or anything 'like that; the smugglers can pay their fine and away. Many of these animals are imported at a low figure-$15 per head and so on. and the number coming in from the United States is out of all proportion to the number going over from our side. The Horse-breeders' Association, in convention assembled have condemned the policy existing at the present time. I understand that deputations have interviewed the government and that resolutions have been passed by several of the live-stock associations. And I think it is too bad that the efforts of those who are anxious to improve oilr stock by the importation .of high priced thoroughbred animals from the old country and from eastern Canada should be made nugatory by the importation of low grade and diseased animals-for many of these. I am sure are diseased-not only during the last fiscal year ffiit for many years past. I would like to find out from the minister if he has decided to respond to the sentiment which is growing in that country against such a policy and in favour of a higher valuation on these animals imported into our Northwest. ,


Sydney Arthur Fisher: My hon. friend (Mr. W. J. Roche) would, not ask me to anticipate the information that my colleague the Minister of Finance will give to the House, I hope, on next Tuesday, when he brings down his Budget.


William James Roche: This is not a question of tariff but of valuation.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Being a question of valuation, it is a question of tariff. The Customs law regulates the tariff and the valuation and only by changing that law can we effect the change that the hon. gentleman suggests. So far as the importation of diseased animals is concerned, that comes within my department. Regulations have just been issued and I will see to it that the hon. gentleman gets a copy immediately- the reading of which will explain more fully what is being done than anything I could say within the compass of a few words.
Mr. GTLMuLR. Is it not a fact that they come in at all points, driven in in droves, and not by railway only?	.

Mx-. FISHER. Our regulations will provide for that.


James Gilmour: But I wish to state that they do come in in droves, being driven over the boundary line and on up as far as Edmonton or perhaps even further, the drove being traded and changed along the trail. I know it would take a large number of officers to watch horses that are driven across in that way, but it is worthy of consideration what steps should be taken.
Ml". FISHER. I will read the regulations :-	[DOT]
3. Branded or range western horses, other than those which are gentle and thoroughly broken to harness or saddle, may be admitted only at the following ports :-
Sarnia, Ont.; Emerson, Man.; North Portal, Wood Mountain, Pendant d'Oreille, Coutts and Cardston, N.WiT.; Gateway, Rossland, Nelson, Grand Forks, Vancouver and Victoria, B.C.; and subject to the following regulations :-
(a.) Such horses must be accompanied by a certificate signed by a veterinarian of the United States Bureau of Animal Industry or by a state veterinarian, stating that they are free from infectious and contagious disease and that no infectious or contagious disease of horses has existed in the district whence they have come, for the period of six months immediately preceding the date of their removal therefrom.
(b.) Owners or persons in charge shall afford to inspectors every facility and assistance for inspecting and otherwise dealing with such horses and shall secure and handle them as directed by the inspectors.
(c.) Such horses shall, in all cases, be subject to detention for such period as the inspectors may deem necessary to determine whether they are free from infectious and contagious disease, and shall be isolated, submitted to the mallein test, dipped or otherwise treated if the inspector so orders.
The Department of Agriculture lias no power to say what animals shall come in and what shall not come in. All we can do is to say how they should be treated, and to stop them from coming in if they are diseased.


Edward Hackett: The question raised is a very important one, and I trust will receive the best consideration of the government. The raisers of horses in Canada should be protected, because this country is cajiable of raising as fine animals as can be produced in any part of the world. While I am on my feet, I wish to mention another matter in connection with Prince Edward Island. It is a very solemn affair, and one of great importance. If the hon. gentleman will consult the Auditor General's Report D-70. he will find that Mr. W. H. Pethick, Central Bedeque, was paid $2 for burying hogs. Would the minister state how these hogs came to die in Prince Edward Island. .


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am afraid I shall have to refer to the accounts before I can give the hon. gentleman an answer to his question. It is possible that Mr. Pethick may have
buried the hogs outside of Prince Edward Island. However, I shall try to see that in future nothing is charged up to Prince E<1 wiird Island that does not actually occur within the bounds of the ocean which surrounds it and bathes its beautiful shores.
Some resolutions reported.
Mr. BTSHER moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What business will be taken up on Monday ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think we will take one or two Bills, and if we go into the estimates, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will submit his estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 6, 1904.