1904-06-30

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SCOTT moved that Bill (No. 146) respecting the Northern Bank be placed on the Orders of the Day for the second reading on Monday next, the 4th of July.
Motion agre*to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. GERMAN moved for leave to present a petition for the passing, of an Act to amend Bill (No. 61), passed this session to incorporate the Thorold and Lake Erie Railway Company. He said : There were two or three mistakes in the Bill in the names of the incorporators, and the word ' navigation ' is printed ' transportation.' This Bill is to correct these clerical errors.
Mr. SPROULE.: Could not the Bill be amended without introducing a new one ?


Mr. GERMAN.: I mentioned the matter to the Clerk of the House, and he suggested that this Tvould be the proper way to make the corrections.


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: Send the petition to the Committee on Standing Orders.


William Manley German: I beg leave to move that the petition be referred to the Committee on Standing Orders.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: 



NATURALIZATION AND ALIENS.

Hon.   CHAS@: FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice) moved first reading of Bill (No. 147) to amend the Acts relating to Naturalization of Aliens. He said : This Bill will apply exclusively to the province of Quebec, and is designed to meet a difficulty which exists there. In that province applications tor naturalization must be made to a judge cf the circuit court of the district in which the alien resides. But the circuit court of a district travels from place to place, and the question has arisen whether or not the applications must be made to the courtsitting in the chief place of the county. It is a trifling matter, and I cannot understand how the difficulty has arisen, but probably some clerk of the court wants to avoid difficulty, and I am asked to make the point clear.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


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Mr. KENDALL-by Mr. Calvert-asked :
3.	What are the names of the employees on the Intercolonial Railway, including the Prince Edvard Island Railway, who have been killed during the last ten years ?
2.	What are the names of the employees on the Intercolonial Railway who have lost limbs, or who have been otherwise permanently iiuapacitated, by accident, during the last ten years ?
3.	Whose relatives, if any, of the above have received compensation for death ; and -what amount in each case ?
4.	Who have received compensation for injury resulting in permanent disability ; and what amount in each case ?
5.	What amounts have been paid by the government to representatives of persons killed on duty in the postal service ?
Right Hon.   S@: *
I,	2, 3 and 4 relate to the Department of Railways and Canals.
5. A. C. Edgecombe, employed on the Intercolonial Railway, killed 26th January, 1897, at Palmer's Pond. Payment of 82,000 to family granted in 1897.
J.	O'Connor, employed on Grand Trunk Railway, injured in coilisou near Thornhill, Ontario, 25th January, 1886 ; superannuated 1st September, 1S95. never having fully recovered. Died shortly afterwards. Payment of 82,000 made in 1899.
J. Campbell, employed on Canadian Pacific Railway, killed 23rd February, 1899, at Boyd's Mills, Maine Central Railway. Payment made in 1900.
W. Starkie killed at Moosehead Lake, Maine 'Central Railway, July 2nd, 1894. Payment made in 1901.


Hon.  H. R.@: EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals. That portion of the ques-
<

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tion relating to the Railway Department, cannot be answered except in the shape of a return as it would take quires of paper to cover the information.


IRON AND STEEL BOUNTIES.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. KENDALL-by Mr. Calvert-asked :
What amounts in the form of bounties have been paid by the government month by month to the Dominion Iron and Steel Company since it began the manufacture of iron and steel.
Right Hon.   S@: Statement to an inquiry of the ministry as to the amounts paid by the government month by month to the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, Limited, as far as the Department of Trade and Commerce is concerned :


October.   . .@: November. December. .	1901.	. . $ 90,588 50 . . 32,552 15 .. . 38,344 34February. . March . . . July	
August.. .	1902.	. . 34,416 06 . . 22.000 00 . . 100,000 00 . . 30,000 00January.. April.... June.. .. August.. . September. October.. . November. December. .	1903.	. . 543,931 8S. . 150,000 00 .. 192,031 61 .. . 75,016 14 .. . 96,371 96 . . 42.103 63 . . 47,020 94 . . 65.907 72January. . February. . March.. . . April.. . . May	1904.	. . 31,996 20 . . . . 20,792 24 . . 32,330 03 . . 35 023 01 . . 41,130 50$1,721,556 91


POSTMASTER AT MAYNOOTH.
Mr. PORTER asked :: X. Has the postmaster at Maynooth, county of
Hastings, been dismissed.
2.	If so. h-as his successor been appointed ?
What is his name, and upon what recommenda-was he so appointed ?	*
3.	What was the cause of the dismissal? Was there any investigation ? And if so, upon whose complaint ; and when, where, and by whom was such investigation held ; and what was the report, if any, made thereon, and when was it made ?


Right Hon.   S@: The management of the Maynooth post office under the late postmaster was extremely unsatisfactory owing to continuous carelessness in the handling of mail matter and in the general management of the office. Not only was this the case in
respect of unregistered but also of registered letters, serious delays occurring in their delivery. Numerous complaints because of such irregularities were made on behalf of patrons, but nevertheless the irregularities instead of being remedied were allowed to continue without any abatement. The postmaster himself gave little or no attention to the office leaving its management to the clerks, who were constantly changing, and who continued to make mistakes, frequently delivering mail matter to the wrong persons and making other mistakes. An official investigation was held which showed the management to be as above mentioned and in consequence a change was made in the postmastership, Mr. James Haryett being appointed postmaster.


DOMINION DAY ADJOURNMENT.
Dr.  J. H.@: That when the House is adjourned this day, Thursday, it stand adjourned until Monday next at Eleven o'clock a.m.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would suggest to the right hon. First Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) that the resolution should he amended so as to read three o'clock on Monday. Monday being the first working day of the week there will be very few members in attendance in the forenoon, and those who will be absent would naturally desire to be here when the work of the House goes on. It has been suggested to me by several that if we commence the morning sittings on Tuesday, it will be quite satisfactory, hut 'to commence them on Monday would hardly be so, as they cannot be here in time. The leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Bordenl himself will not be here until the afternoon.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I will ask leave to amend my motion in accordance with the suggestion of the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule).
Motion as amended agreed to.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-MORNING SITTINGS.

Right Hon.   S@: As Will be seen by the order paper, I have given notice of motion for morning sittings commencing on Monday next, but, in accordance with the resolution just passed. I must ask leave to amend that so as to read Tuesday next. I move :
That commencing with Tuesday next, and until the end of the session, the House shall meet on that day, and on each subsequent sitting day, at eleven o'clock in the morning. That, in addition to the usual intermission at six o'clock p. m., there shall be also an intermission every day from one to three o'clock p.m.; and that government orders shall have precedence^ at all such sittings, members having stll'l the right to

ask questions on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.


Mr. DAVID HENDERSON.: I have no desire to prolong the session more than is necessary, but I must enter my protest against the commencement of morning sittings at this time. Possibly, the right hon. First Minister has not taken into consideration the important committee work that is yet to be done. We have important questions before the Railway Committee, and the Committee on Banking and Commerce, and there is at least one special committee, of which I have the honour of being a mem-iter, a committee which is sitting. I might almost say, day by day and endeavouring to get into shape the very important Bill respecting the inspection of grain. The committee has not yet finished with that Bill, and we shall require to have, at any rate, one more sitting if not more. I, for one, do not like the idea of being obliged to absent myself from meetings of the House to attend to committee work, nor do I like to absent myself from any important committee on which I am placed-and the First Minister knows that even a member of parliament cannot be in two places at the same time. I think that nothing will be lost if the right hon. gentleman will agree to postpone the morning sittings until the beginning of the week after next, thus allowing the committees to complete their work. If this resolution is carried either the committee work must be neglected, or the work of the House must be neglected, and I am sure the right hon. gentleman does not wish to place the members in such a position that they must desert their duties in either one place or the other.


Hon. WM. ROSS (Victoria).: I hope the suggestion of the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) will not be accepted. The trouble is that there is too much delay by members absenting themselves from the House ti# go away pleasure seeking. If there is any difficulty arising through the adoption of the Prime Minister's resolution, it can be got over by having the committees meet earlier in the morning at 9 or 9.30, instead of 11 o'clock.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Make it seven.


William Ross: I know that as to any committees I have to attend- and I am a member of four-I will be there at nine o'clock, if it should be so ordered.


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Motion agreed to.

Mr. M. K. COWAN moved :: That the Select Standing Committees of this House have leave to sit during the time of this session.


David Henderson: I protest | against tbat motion, for I think it would Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
establish a very bad precedent and would encourage members to leave tbeir duties in this House to attend to the work of committees. I would rather adopt the suggestion of the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Wm. Ross) and bave these committees meet at an earlier hour. If necessary, let the committees meet at nine o'clock, but by no means let the work of the committees interfere with our duties in this House. For my part I decline to be called away from the meetings of the House to a committee, even if it is an important committee, and I shall be obliged, perhaps, to take the position of neglecting altogether the committee work if it is to go on during the sittings of the House. I think this is altogether an improper motion.	.


Dr.  J. H.@: I would not say that the motion of my hon. friend from Essex (Mr. Cowan) is an improper one, but I think it is. perhaps, a premature one. I would suggest to him not to press his motion to-day. If any committee cannot do its work without sitting during the time the House is in session, leave can be moved for later on.


Mr. SPEAKER.: On the report of the com-mitttee.
Motion withdrawn.



HON. SYDNEY FISHER-PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Hou. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: Before the Orders of the Day are called. Mr. Speaker. I rise to make a personal explanation. I find the following in this morning's ' Citizen ' on the first editorial page :
Of what does Hon. Sydney Fisher's military experience consist ? Has he ever taken a rifle to defend his country ? No, this does not suit his book. What he prefers is that some one else should do the fighting and he should draw the pay. Mr. Rufus Pope, M.P., made a statement recently in the House of Commons to the effect that the Hon. Sydney Fisher, M.P., for Brome and Minister of Agriculture in the government of Canada, once lent a horse to a trooper in a cavalry corps who was entitled to and received from government the sum of $12 for the horse during the twelve days of camp. Was Mr. Fisher satisfied with this horse-hire? It was the amount allowed by this government of which he was then a member to enable a trooper to provide himdelf with a horse and was thus fixed as a fai-r equivalent. No, this did not suit our modern Shylock. ' The responsible minister for the district,' demands from the trooper not only the amount allowed for the services of the horse but in addition the poor fellow's hard-earned and paltry pittance of fifty cents a day !
Having looked up ' Hansard.' I find that the hon. member for Compton (Mr. Pope) did make some such statement in the House ns is here referred to. I was not paying any attention to the hon. gentleman. aDd therefore did not deny his statement at the time. I have only this to say : It is true

that, a few years ago, I was keeping a horse in a livery stable in Ottawa. It was the duty of the livery stable keeper to exercise the horse when I was away. On one occasion, during my absence, the livery stable keeper let the horse to a trooper of the Princess Louise Dragoon Guards. No charge was made for the use of the horse ; I did not receive any money for the use of the horse either from the trooper who used it or from anybody else. The statements made in this editorial are absolutely false and have no foundation in fact. I find that some hon. gentleman think that what the hon. member for Compton said was in regard to a horse in the eastern townships. I have only to say that I never let a horse to anybody or received any pay for any horse, either in the eastern townships or here or anvwhere else, that was to be used in the militia of Canada.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. JAMES CLANCY, May I again repeat the question I put to the government yesterday as to when we may expect the papers to be brought down with respect to the seizures of binder twine ?
Dr.  J. H.@: I made inquiry about that. I do not know when the order was made, but it was only delivered to my department two days ago1. The papers are being prepared.


Mr. CLANCY.: A slow order.


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: It was slow in reaching me.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
iPoist Office Department

provisional allowance to employees in the branches of the dead letter office at Winnipeg and Vancouver. $305.
Right Hon.   S@: There are five clerks entitled to the benefit of this provisional allowance, one at $20, three at $60, and one at $105.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister promised to bring down some correspondence between the letter-carriers and the Postmaster General.


William Mulock: Yes, I have something here in relation to that matter. I find that out of a total number of 656 letter carriers, 251 elected to come in under the new Act, 146 were appointed under the new Act, leaving 259 who have not elected to come in under the Act. Referring to this item, provisional allowances have been granted to these clerks for many years, in Manitoba, the Territories and British Columbia, over and above the pay
they would receive in the east, on account of the greater cost of living in the west, and we have recently increased that allowance from $10 to $15 a month. These clerks are engaged in the dead-letter branch. As hon. gentlemen may remember, this branch, which is in the inside service at Ottawa, has been distributed throughout Canada. Recently we obtained power from parliament to carry on that work in different parts of the Dominion, and we are distributing the staff, though they still belong to the inside service.
To pay M. W. Sloan, railway mail clerk, who sustained injuries while on duty which prevented his performing the work of a railway mail clerk, the mileage allowance that he would have earned had he been so employed for the period between November 15th [DOT]1898, and January 31,	1904, notwithstanding
anything in the Civil Service Act or the Post' Office Act, $2,224.51.


William Mulock: Mr. Sloan was injured in a railway accident at Murray Hill, on the Grand Trunk Railway, on the 15th of November, 1898. in consequence of which he was unable to resume the duties of a railway mail clerk. He was receiving a salary of $800 a year, and a mileage of $430. He 'is fifty-three years of age. -and was appointed on tfie 19th of September, 1885. He was transferred to the superintendent's office at Toronto on the 1st of February, 1904. We think his case a very meritorious one. Although he does not appear to be physically disabled, yet, as a result of the accident, his nerves have been shattered. We gave him leave of absence to enable him to lend an outdoor life for some time, with the hope that he would become stronger. We have transferred him to a position in the inside office work in Toronto. On the whole, he will be earning about as much under the new conditions as he was under the old.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not take exception to this vote, because I think it may be justifiable. But I would like to suggest to the minister, as we are discussing matters relating to the Toronto Post Office, that he would be good enough to let any one of these items remain over so that we may avail ourselves later on of an opportunity of discussing the Toronto items.


William Mulock: I would suggest something else still better. I will have some supplementaries for the next year. These are for the current year, and I would like to dispose of them because we want to pay these moneys. On the supplementaries I will consider everything open in the service.
Mr. CLANCY'. With regard to this gratuity to Mr. Sloan, I would ask the minister if there have been other cases somewhat smilar, which he has been called upon to

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deal with, and if so, how he dealt with them.
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIv. The controller of the railway mail clerks informs me that there are no railway mail clerks in the position of Mr. Sloan who hare not been compensated for any loss of mileage, either by the department or by the railway company. In some instances tfie railway companies have made good the loss where the clerk injured had a legal claim against them, and some clerks have brought action.


James Clancy: Did Mr. Sloan get anything from the railway company in this case ?
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIv. At the time of the accident Mr. Sloan did not think he was seriously injured. He returned to his duties within a week, and the railway company was astute enough to get a settlement with him. When he returned he thought he was quite well. Tlhey paid him $400. But a short time afterwards he found that his spine was affected, and he suffered great pain and was incapacitated for work of all kinds.


Mr. BLAIN.: Are we to understand that his salary was going on, at the same time and that "he received mileage as well ?


William Mulock: Yes.


Richard Blain: I am not complaining about that. There was an accident somewhere along the line near the city of Guelph a year or two ago where some other men in the employ of the Post Office Department were injured. May I ask if these men were paid their salary and mileage as well ?


William Mulock: The case of Mr. Cheney is perhaps the one my hon. friend has in mind. Mr. Cheney was injured and the Grand Trunk Railway Company compensated him for his losses, the controller thinks, to the amount of $1,700. The department transferred him to the inside service at London at an increased rate of salary so as to make up the increase of salary which he was losing by the loss of mileage.


Richard Blain: May I ask the hon. gentleman if there are not cases other than that of Mr. Sloan not provided for by the department ?
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIv. The officers are not aware of any other case. It is a rule I inaugurated when I came into office to take into account injuries to or deaths occasioned by railway accidents of. railway mail clerks. If my hon. friend is aware of any case that is entitled to consideration I would be very grateful to him if he would bring it to the attention of the department.


James Clancy: I would like to ask the hon. Postmaster General as a matter of im-Mr. CLANCY.
formation if any provision is made in his department for paying some portion if not the whole of a reasonable life insurance for employees who are occupying hazardous positions such as those of mail clerks and who are liable to lose their lives or be injured ?


William Mulock: I do not think there has been any provision in the law of the character to which my hon. friend alludes.


James Clancy: I would like to call the hon. gentleman's attention to what seems to be a very common practice in the departments ; that is paying for life insurance policies for men who go out of this city on government business. If there is any justification for this practice-I do not say whether there is or not-it seems to me that those persons like railway mail clerks who are forced in to hazardous positions should be considered and that it would be only a just thing to contribute a portion if not the whole of the premiums on insurance policies upon the lives of these persons so engaged. I cannot imagine that I could have anything but the approval of the hon. gentleman for the course which I propose in view of what seems to be a very common practice of the departments of paying the premiums upon the insurance policies of persons who are temporarily travelling on government business. I would like to know if the hon. gentleman is prepared to consider that matter?


William Mulock: The policy that the Post Office Department has adopted seems to me to.be better than the one which my hon. friend suggests. Whenever a railway mail clerk is killed it is our policy to vote the sum of $2,000 as a gratuity to his dependents, so that practically we are not only paying the premium but we are undertaking that the amount is paid in case an accident happens.


James Clancy: In case of disablement ?


William Mulock: There is always a compassionate consideration for disablement. My hon. friend does not know anything about the working of the department. He cannot point to a single case since I have been in charge of the department where there has been no consideration given to a railway mail clerk who has met with an accident. I think we are doing very well for the clerks in living up to this policy. There is nothing in the law about it, but I trust it will be always adhered to. I am told there is a practise in some of the departments like this : A civil servant who has occasion to travel on a railway and who travels free, as a good many employees of the government are allowed to do, has no cause of action against the railway company in ease of accident; therefore in such

a ease the employee Is allowed to take out an accident policy and to charge tihe premium in his travelling expenses. That, I am told by my deputy, is the extent to which the departments recognize responsibility tor acidents occurring to employees. If, of course, a man were paying his way and had a cause of action against the railway company in case of accident it might be different.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has there been any test case in regard to employees of the government travelling on the railway establishing the fact that in the event of injury they are without redress under the law, though the accident may have been due to the culpable negligence of some of the railway employees ?


William Mulock: I do not know whether it has been determined as a matter of law but I think the companies, in connection with any free transportation, add the stipulation that a person travelling under these conditions shall have no recourse against the company, he giving no consideration fer the service rendered by the railway company. It is treated as a matter of courtesy.


Charles Fitzpatrick: That stipulation is on our own passes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I admit that but I do not think that many of us believe that it could be sustained in a court of law.


William Mulock: We cannot give a free opinion on that point.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand the hon. Postmaster General to say that this was the practice of the railway companies and I supposed it had been tested by some decision of a court that would give strength to it. But I have heard that contention disputed over and over again by legal authorities who have claimed that it was not optional for any company to put any provision' on a pass or on a shipping Bill of that kind and to say that provided you accept so and so you accept it on conditions. Insurance companies do the same thing but when you go into a court of law the court determines whether the conditions are proper and reasonable and if they are unreasonable the court will not hold you as bound by these conditions notwithstanding that you sent your goods under the conditions of that Shipping Bill or tha-t you accepted a pass on those terms.
Mr. BLA1N. I understand that the Postmasters give no bonds to the government or rather that the government guarantee the fulfilment of the duties of the postmasters. I understand that the postmasters pay into a fund! and that when there is a loss sustained by any postmaster it is repaid out
of tfne fund which is accumulated by the government.


William Mulock: The practice in the department now is to assess the employees instead of having guarantee bonds for their fidelity, but it is not enforced in the case of postmasters at offices having a revenue of less than $100. The rate charged is 40 cents for each $100 of insurance. That is the rate which I understand prevails throughout Canada. The fund is deposited in the savings bank account to the credit of the guarantee fund. If a loss occurs it is then chargeable against it and an applica tion is made to the government for an Order in Council allowing the withdrawal of the fund. We have been very fortunate so far although running many risks. We recently had a loss of $10,000 which occurred through the misconduct or robbery of a mail clerk in the west. Part of that money has been recovered. That would have made a bad hole in our fund but we have not been called upon to make it good. I suppose we will have to make some of it good. Altogether it is a more satisfactory system than having a bond for each officer. In the latter case there is the danger of the bond expiring, and there is trouble in seeing to the renewal of it, and the payment of premiums. and in the event of loss we are not always able to recover, although there is no moral deubt as to the liability of the company. For instance, some time ago $367 disappeared, and there was no doubt that it disappeared by the fault of one of three of our officers, but which one it was impossible to state. In that case we could not tell which officer was responsible and we could not have recovered from the insurance company. The three men were insured under our own system and we were able to make good the loss. There are many advantages in the system ; having tried it for seven years I think it is infinitely better than the old system.


Mr.   BLAIX@: What was the old system ?


William Mulock: Each postmaster gave an insurance company bond or a private bond. In the latter case, all sorts of obstacles were put in the way of recovering. The minister was told that it would be a great hardship to seek to recover against some bondsman who had not the money. It was a perfect nuisance, and I think my hon. friend (Mr. Haggart) who has had experience will agree with me in that. I must say that defaults in the postal service are not frequent, and that on the whole we have a most efficient and honest staff throughout the country, but unfortunately occasionally some one will lapse.


Richard Blain: I do not complain of the new system. Could the minister state how much was paid into the fund last year and how much was paid out of it.


William Mulock: If my hou. friend wishes I will bring that down on the supplementary estimates. It is a special trust fund and the premiums do not go into the consolidated revenue at all. By an Act passed in 1898 the money assessed upon the officers is treated as independently as if it were a private insurance company.


Mr. FOWLER.: Do I understand that instead. of these officers paying to a guarantee company, they pay so much to the government and the government guarantees ?


William Mulock: That is practically it; we do our own insuring. We take the premiums and put them in this trust fund, out of which any loss is paid.


George William Fowler: How has it worked, out ?


William Mulock: Satisfactorily. If the few years' experience we have had furnishes reliable data for all time, then it would be most satisfactory. However, there might be a serious loss any day, and I do not think we should debate the extent to which money passes through the post office.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does each official get a guarantee bond in the regular way ?


William Mulock: Instead of an official giving a guarantee bond or getting neighbours to act as his bondsmen, in a case where an employee would be bonded for say $500, he pays a premium to this fund of 40 cents on the dollar or $2 a year. That is deducted from his salary and goes to the trust fund.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to be cheaper than the other system.


Richard Blain: I would suggest to the Postmaster General that this would be interesting information to put in his annual report. How does that matter of'the loss df $10,000 in the Northwest now stand ?


William Mulock: Nothing has been adjusted yet. The total amount stolen was $10,000, and we have recovered nearly $7,000.	'
Compassionate allowance for Mrs. John A. W. Innes, widow of the late railway mail clerk John A. W. Innes, who sustained injuries while on duty on January 23, 1904, from which he died on January 27, 1904, $2,000.


William Mulock: Mr. Innes fell from the train when leaving the postal car at Winnipeg on the 23rd of January, 1904. and died three days later. He was appointed railway mail clerk in December, 1893, and at the time of his death his salary and mileage allowance amounted to about $900 a year.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Carried.
To provide for the increasing of the salary of Mr. George Ross, chief post office superintendent, to $3,500 from July 1, 1903, notwith-Mr. BLAIN.
standing anything in the Civil Service Act or the Post Office Act, $500.


William Mulock: Mr. George Ross entered the service as a fourth-class clerk in the Hamilton office on the first of July, 1875, and he has been continually in'the service since. He has been appointed chief superintendent of city post offices, and his duties necessitate his travelling from ocean to ocean .throughout the Dominion of Canada. Everybody knows that however accurate a man may be in keeping accounts of travelling expenses it is absolutely impossible for him, if he is an honest man, to protect himself from loss. Mr. Ross is a most worthy officer ; one of the best officers in Canada, and we are most fortunate in having such a man in this position. He is affable, able, honest, industrious, never spares himself, and I do not Imagine that this $500 will add much to his real salary, but that it wild rather enable him to travel without having to skimp himself.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This only applies to one year.


William Mulock: It only applies to the present year, but it will be in the supplementary estimates for the succeeding year. v
Medical attendance, hospital and other expenses in caring for railway mail clerk J. W. H. Cameron, -who met w-ith a serious accident on* December 19, 1903, while on duty, $213.


William Mulock: Mr. Cameron fell from the Dominion Atlantic train near South Uniacke, about twenty-four miles from Halifax, on the 19th of December last. He was not missed by his fellow-clerks until the train reached Halifax. The search party found him in the cottage of Mrs. Coglin, who had heard his cries and rescued him. He was in his bare head, without a coat, and the temperature was below zero. He sustained a compound fracture of the right leg, between the ankle and the knee. This amount will cover his hospital and medical attendance and other expenses.
To complete payments for post office service to June 30, 1904, $130,000.


William Mulock: This increase is due to the general expense of the service, and for the increased price asked for contracts put up to tender.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought the service was more than self-sustaining.


William Mulock: So It is, but the money we collect goes into the revenue.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You are this mucfii short of what you estimated last year you would require.


William Mulock: I suppose my hon. friend means that the cost Is that much greater than in the previous year, hut it is never possible at the beginning of the year

to know how much it is going to cost to curry on the service. We cannot refuse new services because the money has not been voted, and therefore while the appropriation may perhaps carry the service through eleven months, at the end of the year we find a shortage. For instance, suppose our gross expenditure to be about $100,000 a week, when you get to the last mouth, you can pretty well tell how much you require to meet all demands, but every year you will require more money at the end of the year. If the plan I have adopted of asking parliament at the close of the fiscal year to vote sufficient money to close up the accounts had always been followed, the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) and myself would not have had that squabble about tthe $780,000. My policy is to state to parliament what is wanted and get it voted.


David Henderson: I do not wish to continue that controversial question, but in as much as the hon. minister has to a certain extent corroborated the position I took-


William Mulock: I will admit anything my hon. friend chooses to assume this afternoon, because it is too hot for discussion.	.


David Henderson: But that is not the matter to which I desire to refer. I understand that before another session there may be very considerable changes in the House of Commons Post Office, and I think there is one which the Postmaster General should keep in mind. Every member should be provided with a lock box.


William Mulock: The House of Commons Post Office is under the control of the House of Commons itself, and I have nothing to do with it.


David Henderson: At any rate, whoever is in authority, if he is within the sound Of my voice, I would ask him to take that matter into consideration.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Another thing which might be dealt with is the hour at which the mails close on Sunday in the House. No letters leave here that are posted after six o'clock, and I do not see any reason why the mails should not leave this House at nine o'clock instead of six.


William Mulock: That is not unuer control of my department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Last year I understood from the hon. minister that he was going to clean out the whole House of Commons staff unless things were managed differently. but I am glad he has awakened to the sense of his own imitation.
The undermentioned letter carriers and porters to be promoted to clerkships from the dates and with the salaries mentioned, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act or the Post Office Act :	_
R. Wilkinson, letter-carrier, to junior third class from June 25, 1904, at a salary of $705 a
year.
J. Emond, letter-carrier, to fourth class from October 1, 1903, at a salary of $626 a. year.
L. J. Filion, letter-carrier, to fourth class from September 1, 1903, at a salary of $600 a year.
J. Wilson, letter-carrier, to junior third class from February 1, 1904, at a salary of $700 a year.
W. J. Gow, letter-carrier, to junior second class from December 1, 1903, at a salary of $900 a year.
E.	D. Moore, porter, to fourth class from July 1, 1903, at a salary of $600 a year, and to junior third class from December 1, 1903, at a salary of $700 a year.
F.	Graham, porter, to stamper and sorter class from October 1, 1903, at a salary of $540, and to fourth class from December 1, 1903, at a salary of $540 a year.
G.	W. Oliver, letter-carrier, to stamper and sorter class from December 1, 1903, at a salary of $470, and to the fourth class from March 1, 1904, at a salary of $470, $158.32.
Mr. (TAYLOR. Tliiere are some members who wish to speak on this question of the letter-carriers, but we will allow this item to pass on the understanding that the matter may be discussed on any other item.


William Mulock: Certainly, I have not the slightest objection.
Department of Indian Affairs, salaries, $61,395.


Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of the Interior).: The increase is due to forty-six statutory increases at $50 each, making $2,300. and the $62.50 is due to some trifling difference caused by the new Civil Service Act.
Department of Indian Affairs-contingencies, $14,075.


George Taylor: There is an increase here of $660.


Clifford Sifton: That increase is caused by increases iu salaries to clerks who are paid out of contingencies.
Indians-Ontario and Quebec-relief, medical attendance and medicines, Ont., $3,300.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is an increase here of $1,000. How is that accounted for 7


Clifford Sifton: This is for sick and destitute Indians in Ontario belonging to bands which have no funds in the hands of the department. It includes the salaries of medical officers amounting to $1,119. The balance is for mediciues, supplies. &c. The money is mainly for tlie benefit of the Indians on the north shore of Lake Superior. The demands for relief are becoming larger, and the expenditure is gradually growing.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many medical men has the department employed on salary in Ontario 7
/


Clifford Sifton: The medical men to whom I have referred are the only ones paid out of money voted by parliament. On many Indian reserves are medical men who are paid out of the band funds. The names of those to whom I referred and their salaries are as follows


Dr.  J. W.@: McIntosh, Manitoulin Island... $184


Dr.  J. H.@: Arthur, Spanish' River	 75


Dr.  P. H.@: Mitchell, Oneida Reserve.. ..	300


Dr.  J. F.@: James, Munsee	Reserve	 80


Dr.  J. A.@: McNeil, Pogowasing and White
Rivers	 100


Dr.   E.@: Bedard, Mattawa	 200
Dr. Channonhouse, Golden Lake	 200

As I understand, it is the desire of hon. members that we should adjourn as early as possible. I may say that I am quite willing that the adjournment should take place when this vote is passed.


George Taylor: Some of our friends who are not now present have something to say on the items of which this vote is n^ide up. One item might be reserved.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Pass all but one item and allow the discussion generally to take place on that item.
Indians-payment of Robinson treaty annuities, $12,450.


James Clancy: There is a reduction here of $4,356. How is that accounted for ?


Clifford Sifton: We make an estimate every year on the amount of annuities that will be necessary. Of course, it is impossible to make an exact estimate because we cannot know exactly how many Indians will be alive and entitled to these annuities. We think we are safe with this reduced estimate. Also in making calculations for this year we must take into account moneys placed at the credit of the Indian Fund as a result of the settlement of accounts between the old province of Canada and the Dominion, and this tends to reduce the vote.
Indians-survey of Indian reserves, $500.


James Clancy: In what state are the surveys that were commenced some time ago on Walpole Island ? I understood that they had commenced but it is reported to me that they had been stopped or delayed for some reason, but I do not know just what the reason was.


Clifford Sifton: I am informed that instructions have been given to have this survey made. But it has not been possible to get it done. It is extremely difficult to get survey work done at present, because the enormous amount of surveying that we are doing in the west takes up practically all the available men.


James Clancy: Is there any objection on the part of the Indians, or any of them, to the survey being made ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Clifford Sifton: Some objections were made, but after considering them we decided to go on, nevertheless.


James Clancy: Did the department decide [DOT] to go on, notwithstanding the objection of the Indians, as a matter of policy, or did the Indians finally consent ?


Clifford Sifton: It is a matter of which I have no personal knowledge. I think the objections were made in connection with the holdings of the Indians.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You are carrying on surveys on the islands in the Georgian bay. Are there not a number of islands there under the Indian Department ?


Clifford Sifton: We had surveys made some years ago, I am qot aware that any have been made since then. There are some islands that are now in dispute between the Ontario government and the Dominion government, and it is only when the consent of the Ontario government has first been secured that we make any sales. The sales are of an unimportant character, the islands are small and of no great value.


James Clancy: Has the minister considered that difficulty will arise in a place like Walpole Island where improvements were made without any regard to surveys? How does he propose working out the question of the settlement of holdings ? Or has he a system of making, of uniform size the lots Indians may hold ?


Clifford Sifton: The policy is to survey the land where it is actually occupied by the Indians, that is the purpose in view.


James Clancy: I have some acquaintance with the condition of things there where the lands are held by the Indians. I think when the hon. gentleman surVeys the holdings of what the Indians claim to occupy now, he will have some strangely shaped lots left that are not claimed by the Indians, unless he has some system.


Clifford Sifton: It is a question either of surveying the lots as they are or of not surveying them at all, and leaving the boundaries altogether undefined. It is a delicate question, and all we can do is to act on the best information we can obtain, and survey the lots according to actual location. I have not myself personal knowledge of the particular matter to which the hon. gentleman has called my attention.


James Clancy: I have not understood that the Indians made any demand. I may say that the gentleman who is employed by the government, Mr. McGeorge, is as good a man as can be found. I have understood,
I do not know whether the information is accurate, that the Indians were somewhat opposed to this, and made no demand for a subdivision survey.


Clifford Sifton: I cannot give a positive answer whether any demands from the Indians came, but I will give my hon. friend a full statement with regard to the whole matter.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What method does the department adopt In the sale of timber on the islands belonging to the Indians in Georgian bay, or elsewhere ?


Clifford Sifton: No timber is sold by the Indian Department except under the regulations providing for the sale of timber generally. Applications have been made for sale of timber on these islands, but 1 have refused to sell.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood you sold tome timber not very long ago on the Georgian bay, not very far from Midland.


Clifford Sifton: In one case, some years ago. I found, some time after it had been done, that the officials of the department had sold some land on Batchewana bay which had some hardwood on it. They sold the laud including the wood. The persons to whom it was sold had made applications for the land, the land was sold in the regular way and no reservation of the timioer was 'made. The timber was not of any special value, 4out if the matter had been brought to my attention I would have directed that the timber be sold separately, In accordance with the regulations. I do not imagine that this is the case to which my hoii. friend refers. With that one exception, there has been absolutely no sale of timber lands, except in accordance with the regulations.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long is it since the regulation was made requiring that Indian lands must be sold by public auction ?


Clifford Sifton: The regulation was made before I came*into office, and there has Teen no change.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We had a discussion here only a few nights ago in regard to this very question, when it was stated that Indian lands had been sold without competition to a party living in Orillia.


Clifford Sifton: Those were not Indian lands.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This department has no authority to sell any other land there. It either belongs to the Indians and is controlled here, or belongs to the province of Ontario and is controlled at Toronto.


Clifford Sifton: What the House was discussing the other night was not sold by the Indian Department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What department sold it, then ?


Clifford Sifton: I presume it was sold by the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
That department may have had the land for the purposes of the department, and then sold it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That may be.


Clifford Sifton: All Indian land is required by Order in Council, passed some years ago, to be sold by public competition, and, as I say, with that one exception, there has been none solid without reference to that regulation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the hon. minister is perhaps right, because I understood that this land was transferred to the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Clifford Sifton: That must be Hope island.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.
Grant to assist Indian fund- account No. 310, prevention of liquor traffic, $1,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You have a large increase here. How do you account for that ?


Clifford Sifton: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there any return of these fines ?


Clifford Sifton: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there any report giving a return of the fines as well as the names of the parties imposing the fines ?


Clifford Sifton: I am told that the details are not in the report of the department, but if my hon. friend desires it I can bring down a statement covering the prosecutions for the last two years. It would be very easy to have a statement made out.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can you go beyond two years ?	-


Clifford Sifton: We can go back as far as you wish.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I may say that I applied to your department before, and I was told that you had no information on the subject.
5S59


Clifford Sifton: About what ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: About the fines that were imposed.


Clifford Sifton: There may be something in that point, inasmuch as fines may be imposed by a provincial constable or justice of. the peace without the knowledge or intervention of the officers of the department, and. of course, if that were done, there would be no return made to us and the department would have no information, but if prosecutions are undertaken at the instance of the inspector of our department, then returns are regularly made. I do not fancy there are many cases in which prosecutions take place except at the instance of the Indian Department, so that the information must be pretty full. I have never heard of any other body prosecuting.


James Clancy: Oh, yes ; I have known of some cases in which other persons have prosecuted, and I have known of no case where the action has been brought by the agent of the department. It has been reported that these fines have not been returned. ,
Mr. SIFTON- It would be a very difficult matter to manage except we got a return from the justices of the peace of the province. The only way that it could be reached would be to ask the provincial government to have a special record kept, but I think my hon. friend will find that when there is a prosecution it is instituted at the instance of the Indian Department under the Indian Act.


Mr. LEONARD.: Who was paid that $11,325 for squatters' improvements, Doncaster Reserve, which was voted last year ?


Clifford Sifton: I cannot give the item offhand, but will furnish my hon. friend with a detailed statement giving the names and the amounts to eacjh person.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT moved the the adjournment of the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What business will be taken up on Monday.
Sir RICltARD CARTWRIGHT. I understand that Mr. Emmerson will take up the railway estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 5 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 4, 1904.