1904-03-18

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The Civil Service List of Canada, 1903 ; Orders of the Yukon Territory passed by ,.".e Yukon Council, 1903-Rt. Hon. Sir Wil-1x1 Laurier.

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ttoii.
Sir FREDERICK W lister of Militia and Defence) moved for Miin-to intl-oduce Bill (No. 5) respecting the Uoii of Canada. He said : I presume the ejJ:86 will expect me to make a few short Sanations as to the provisions of this eXiat' me in the first place, that the laTvtln§ militia law is practically the same Slne Which has been on the statute-book the ^confederation, and indeed it was on that n ^Ute ^°°k °t old Canada long before exist- at-G- Times have changed since the St'ow 8 law was enacted ; Canada has it h'inifUlt the militia force has grown, and thiliti 1)6611 hound impossible to carry on our existi system advantageously under the eht a11? hiw. Instead of amending the pres-entiffti ' 1 thought it better to bring in an repealJ 116vv Till], which provides for< the eopj. °,f tlie existing law, but which, of Provisi' lnelu(Ies and retains many of its h'odn	This measure, which I now in-
I)owei.e' .defl.'s with the maintenance of civil of the Wltliin the country and the defences g6q country against invasion, and in con-h,°l'tanp? ^ 113 a measure of very great im-" a e- I hope, and I am led to think
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Plant h'„B mi'itia authorities of my depart-hi£r	1,0t lost sight of this fact in framthatthe *11g til
Pfhinen Bi|l. 1 may say that we have ex-,Ws of' "''t °uly the imperial laws and the aWs of er colonies of the empire, but the i.'Kle-'ivoii ,1' countries as well, and we have b&st tho.« . to incorporate in this Bill the It wn, ,18 jn them all. n°W i„w® tound that in the Bill which 1 Jhade in ,, ?c.e there have been changes *sting law6.1'^11 0|- the provisions of the ex-ttitions tn I timre have been important admission* i;,' nnd there have been important
omissions1 Amo"s the more import'd6 first ni?,"? ^f'°m the present law is, in
f 6 first nio om the tnletlce tn +iC6' tIle disappearance of any re-.re i'n„* tne naval militia. Tills is due to at a Bill will he introduced by
^Tine) !£' ot Marine (Hon. Mr. Prgfon this ,	1 ,wi" meet all the requirements
,'t the s„„	1 may say that this is done
Voioniai i w 0n nnd under the advice of the Admiralty efence Committee and of the
&1'esentUnf,t important omission from the ' 18 that restriction which prevents the appointment of a Canadian officer as commanding officer of our militia. The existing Militia Act provides that no one but an imperial officer, and no one below the rank of colonel in the British army, shall be appointed general officer commanding the militia of Canada. The new Bill omits this restriction and leaves it open to a Canadian or to any qualified person within the British empire to be appointed by the government as commanding officer of the Canadian militia. The next important omission-'military men will consider it important, although in a sense it is perhaps a matter of minor importance-the next omission from the Bill is the provision in the present law by which an officer of the British army of the same rank as a Canadian officer, but of junior date of appointment, takes precedence of the Canadian officer in the militia of Canada. This provision is not included in the present Bill, so that in future imperial officers who come here to serve in Canada will rank with officers of the Canadian militia according to the date of their appointment.
The next important provision which is not included in the present Bill, but which exists in the law as it now stands, is with reference to the powers of the imperial officer commanding the imperial troops at Halifax. Under the law as it now stands, in case of war, the imperial officer commanding the imperial troops at Halifax, no matter how junior he might be, would immediately take command of the whole militia of Canada over the head of the general officer commanding the militia of this country. That provision has been eliminated from the present Bill, and no allusion whatever is made to the general officer commanding at Halifax. If he is a man of senior rank, he would in time of war, by virtue of his seniority, take his position as head of the forces in this country.
One other omission is made. There is no reference in the Bill I am now proposing to the King's regulations. Under the law as it now exists the King's regulations are made a part of the law of Canada. This has been found to be troublesome and cumbrous, and to add to the difficulties of the administration of the militia. Therefore, we shall rely in future upon the regulations made in Canada for the administration of the militia of Canada, except that the Army Act will apply. It was at first thought that we might re-enact the Army Act in this country ; but it is a very long document and is being changed from time to time ; and, after taking the best advice I could get in this country, it was thought wiser to adopt the British Army Act rather than to attempted to re-enact a similar Act here at present.
Mr. SAMUEL HUGHES.: In so far as it is not inconsistent with your law.


Sir FREDERICK W. BORDEN.: Quite so. I Now, I will mention some alterations which


Mr. INGHAM.: Does the minister the cadet corps connected with high schools-


Frederick William Borden: Yes, a"*1 with any school.


Mr. CLARKE.: 
Frederick William Borden: 
Samuel Hughes: power unless the riot takes the form of an insurrection. Why should the militiamen be called upon to do police duty, standing around docks and warehouse doors, to be spat upon, as we have seen them spat upon again and again ? They have to stand there absolutely passive. Special constables would have the right to arrest those who assaulted them. But, as militiamen we dare not arrest a rioter unless ordered to do so. I would like the minister to take this point into his serious consideration, and, if he is going to insist on the law7 remaining as it is, I would like to have another point fairly considered, ihe electors of the county that I have the honour to represent contribute to the permanent force as well as do those of the cities and towns ; but we do not have any riots in our municipal districts, for these disturbances ^ are confined to the cities. I can tell the Minister of Militia, as well as the First Minister, that the people of this country object to paying for a police force to be sent about to these various large centres to quell disturbances, unless those disturbances amount to an absolute insurrection.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: They don't.


Samuel Hughes: Under the law they have to, though.


Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Samuel Hughes: I am only taking the word of the Minister of Militia for it. lie says the Bill provides that the militia shall not be called out so long as the permanent force is sufficient to put down the disturbance. The permanent force, as I understand it, are to be called out first, and, if they are not sufficient to quell the riot, the ordinary militia will be called out. I object to contributing a dollar to such a service ; I object


Frederick William Borden: The municipalities will still pay the expense. The provision is precisely the same, as to the volunteer force, as it was before.


Samuel Hughes: Where will the money go ?


Frederick William Borden: The
government will pay the militiamen and charge it to the municipalities.


Samuel Hughes: There is no provision for that. You have no authority, I believe, to collect the money.


Frederick William Borden: That is another matter.
JIi-. SAJI. HUGHES. I object, anyway, to the ordinary militia being called out to quell a riot. And I want it made clear that the expense in such matters is not to be borne by the people of Canada at large. The people of the riding I represent object to bearing such an expense, and I am satisfied that ninety-nine out of a hundred of the ridings in Canada will object to paying a


Samuel Hughes: dollar and to the militia being sent hither and thither at the beck and nod of magistrates who get a scare owing to some disturbance among their people. However, we shall have an opportunity to take this matter up. I congratulate the minister on many of the provisions of this Bill. I trust he will give us a few days so that the officers throughout the country will have an opportunity to consider the measure before it is brought up for a second reading.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


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Mr. CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
Is it the intention of the government at the present session to amend the Yukon Territory Representation Act, 1902, in relation especially to the making of the electoral lists by the enumerators ?
Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of the Interior).: 
Hon. CHARLES HYMAN :: 4- The letter mentioned, as couched in the terms cited, was not sent out by the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Its cir-t'Unition was not authorized by the government nor by any of its members.
Mr. Clement is a first-class clerk in the Marine and Fisheries Department and acts as Private Secretary to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.
" Answered by No. 1.
Answered by No. 1.
0- Answered by No. 1.
^embers op commons named as lieutenant GOVERNOR.
CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
w many members of the House of Commons liettaila&a have been named to the position of the nEant governor of any of the provinces of *Dominion since the .1st August, 1896 ?
Jtir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Min-a<!+i '*	1 would ask my hon. friend, so far
ana . question, and also question four, five a SH, are concerned, to move for returns.


TCKON-TREADGOLD CONCESSION.
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}'Iv- CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
quir^avo the commissioners appointed to in-cory,® mto the facts concerning the Treadgold ta 

on in the Yukon Territory, and other , Unq5, cuunected therewith, finished their work 2 made their report ?
the , „ [DOT]s.0>
i® it the government's intention to lay th6 in™ Report, with all the evidence taken by ^Ubimons* ?S'°nerS' 0U	House of
Sletori aaid commissioners have not yet cotn-their ^ueir work, and have not yet produced sPort, what are the reason and cause?
tlrn'r'l CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of
f :
No report has been received nor R°ve],?0 evidence been transmitted to the Mth ent- One of the commissioners met The accident which resulted in his death, fact tenQai"ing commissioner reported this Secretary of State. His com-GilrlieJt 1011 wi" receive consideration at tlie
* t convenient date.
Dazing
leases in APSINIBOIA and ALBERTA.
8ra
\f
' r- J- D. reid asked :
l- Ho*
nted hmany grazing leases have been ce loop , the Department of the Interior
n. Ce lsqp . tue department or tne interior ri e even 1' in Assiniboia and Alberta, in which
...li__ _____ x	Ui,
** rr 4numbered sections have been with-2- \\ihrv°m homesteading ? s y* are the lessees ?
fro
I
Use -T" many acres are Included in

each
4. Is it the policy of the department to lease grazing lands at the present time ?
5	If not does the government intend m the near future to formulate a policy by which ranchers can lease or acquire lands for tne purpose of ranching ?
6	When were the last leases or lease granted, and to whom ?
Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of
1.	Twelve. 2 and 3:
Name
Spencer Bros.. .. W. E. Wilson.. .. Brown Ranche Co. A. T. Mackie.. ..
C. E. Hall	
J. W. Taylor.. .. A. T. Mackie .. .. A. Hitchcock.. .. J. D. McGregor.. . Burton & Starks..
L. A. Pope	
H. P. Brown.. ..
Area.
69,120 acres.
5,000	"
17.000	"
30,325	"
60.000	"
. 60,818 "
42,280	"
. 47,218	"
. 45,900	"
.	6,398	"
. 37 200	"
. 60,381	"
5. The matter is now under consideration. The subject is one of great difficulty, but it is hoped that an early conclusion will be
reached.	, .
0.	The last two leases issued were granted to Mr. L. A. Pope by Order in Council, dated 21st April. 1902, and to Mr. H. P. Brown by Order in Council, dated 23rd March, 1903.

Mr. JABEL ROBINSON asked :: 1.	What is the extent of the area of the coalmeasures owned by the government of the Dominion of Canada ?	,2.	Where are the above-mentioned coal-measures located ?	.	___3.	Is it known whether coal exists near the route of the proposed line of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway ?4.	If so, will all the coal be reserved by the government in the interests of the people . it not, what proportion ?


Clifford Sifton: I can only give the hon. gentleman (Mr. Jabel Robinson) a general answer to his question. I have had a short memorandum prepared by the Director ot the Geological Survey, which I will read :
The area of coal-bearing rocks within the Dominion of Canada is very great, perhaps as great as that of any other country in the world. The largest portion of this area is in the Northwest Territories and British Columbia. In these regions, it has not been possible as yet to define the boundaries of the different coal districts With precision. This lias been due to their vast extent the small number of geologists who have been employed upon the work and the comparatively short length of time that these regions have been under the control of the goverumen
of Canada.	.
The coals occur principally in the crete. _ and tertiary rocks, which extend from southern Manitoba westward to the Rocky Mounts_ northerly through the region along the east sine

of these mountains from the International boundary to the Arctic sea.
Long geological basins, containing seams ot coal, also ocour within the Rocky Mountains /bhietmlselvefe and among) ithe>
other .mountain ranges westward to the Pacific coast.
Important coal-fields exist on the inner or northeastern side of Vancouver island and extensive collieries have been worked for many years in the Comox field in this part of the
island.	.	,.	_	,
Numerous large coal seams occur in the Crow s Nest coal-field and in the Green Hills coal-field in the southwestern part of British Columbia; also in the vicinity of Blairmore and Prank in Alberta. New coal mines are being opened near the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway near Canmore and Anthracite. Coal is also found in the Nicola valley in British Columbia.
In the Yukon Territory, a good quality ot coal exists and is beginning to he mined in the northern part of the Klondike district. The lignite beds in the basin of Moose river belong to the province of Ontario, while the valuable coal basins of Cape Breton and the counties of Cumberland and Pictou are controlled by the government of Nova Scotia. A small quantity of coal js found in New Brunswick.
jFine seams of coal have been discovered on several of our large islands north of the mainland of the Dominicn and it is believed that great quantities of coal exist there		.
Coal is known to exist in the vicinity of Edmonton land along the 'Noirth. ^Saskatchewan river above that town, also on the Pacific slope eastward from Port Simpson, near the proposed route of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.


HALF-BREED SCRIP COMMISSION.
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Mr. LaRIVIERE asked ;
1 Have the commissioners appointed for the allotment of half-breed scrip completed their work and made their final report ?
2. If not, is it intended that they shall1 hold any further sittings, and when and where ?
Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of
the Interior) :	, ,
1.	The commissioners have reported upon all the work so far undertaken.
2.	The subject of further sittings is one which will require further consideration.

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Mr. BENNETT asked ;
How many bushels of grain were received direct from Port Arthur, Duluth, Fort William, Chicago and any other port or ports on the upper lakes, at Quebec, during the season of navigation of 1903 ?
Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs).: The number of bushels of grain received direct from Port Arthur, Duluth, Fort William, Chicago, *and any other port or ports on the upper lakes, at Quebec, during the season of navigation of 1903, was as follows :	By vessel, 548,480 bushels ;
by rail, 313,199 bushels.


Mr. BENNETT asked :: How many bushels of grain were shipped from Port Arthur and Fort William, respectively, to Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
Buffalo, N.Y., during the season of navigation of 1903 ? '


William Paterson: The number of bushels of grain shipped from Port Arthur, Fort William, respectively to Buffalo, N.Y., during the season of navigation of 1903, was as follows : From Port Arthur, 2,376,099 ; from Fort William. 5,527,162.


William Humphrey Bennett: How many bushels of grain were received at Montreal, during the season of navigation of 1903, shipped direct from the port of shipment, without bulk being broken until its arrival at Montreal ?


William Paterson: ' The number of bushels of grain received at Montreal during the season of navigation of 1903, shipped direct from the port of shipment, without bulk being broken until its arrival at Montreal, was 1,022,358.


William Humphrey Bennett: How many bushels of grain were received at Midland, Depot Harbour, Collingwood, Meaforh, Owen Sound, Goderich and Kingston, respective' ly, during the season of navigation of 1903 ?	.


William Paterson: The number of bushels of grain r ceived at Midland, Depot Harbour, Collu fe wood, Meaford, Owen Sound, Goderich an Kingston, respectively, during the season L navigation of 1903, was as follows :
Bushels-
Midland	
Depot Harbour Collingwood.. .
Meaford	
Owen Sound..
Goderich	
Kingston	
13,515,958
11,765,466
1,605,090
1,001,716
3,318,089
3,289,195
7,791,654


CANADIAN MAIL TO GREAT BRITAIN.
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Mr. SMITH asked For the cale*daf year ending December 31 last:
1.	What weight of Canadian mail matter {]je
carried from Canadian ports to Britain vi subsidized mail boats ?	hoidi2'
2.	What weight, if any, via boats not sun ed, from Canadian ports ?
3.	What weight via American ports . tjje
1. What was paid for the ocean carrying °
Canadian mail via American ports ? ,ryi*®
5. What was paid, if anything, for car 'tuer Canadian mail from Canadian ports on than subsidized mail boats ?	,
Sir WILLIAM MULOCK (Postma General) :: ,	{vo&
1.	Weight	of	mail	matter	carried	*e(j
Canadian ports to Britain via suds i pe. mail boats during calendar year ende comber 31, 1903.-147,109 pounds.
2.	Nothing.	_	yea1'3.	Weight	via	American	ports	tot	*
ended December 31, 1903,-504,023 I*01

4.	Amount paid to United States for sea conveyance of Canadian mails sent to Great Britain during the year ended December 31, 1903, $24,892. 97.
5.	As nothing was carried, as stated in answer No. 2, no payment has been made.


MR. P. V. SAVARD.
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Mr. CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
![DOT] Has Mr. P. V. Savard, advocate, formerly a member of this House, and now of the town of -'j-ontmagny, been employed during the course of year 1903 by the Dominion government ?
"[DOT] H so, what employment did he have ?
3. If he received a salary, what was it, and ,°'v much did he receive1 ?
4-	Did he present an account for travelling expenses or other expenses connected with his position ?
5-	If so, what amount does he claim, and what
®M>unt did he receive ?	[DOT]
Charles Smith Hyman: 
Charles Smith Hyman: 
CHINESE LABOUR IN SOUTH AFRICA.
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Mr. MONK-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
1.	Was the government of Canada asked to join in a representation or protest to the imperial government against the employment of Chinese labour in British South Africa ?
2.	If so, what was the answer made by ihe Canadian 'government ?
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAUR1ER (Prime Minister). Mr. Seddon, Prime Minister of New Zealand, asked Canada to join in a representation of protest to the imperial government against the employment of I Chinese labour in British South Africa. The I answer of the Canadian government was that in our opinion any interference in that matter would not he advisable.

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ill-. KEMP asked :*
1.	What is the total amount of money, if any, advanced to the government by loans or overdrafts by Canadian banks ?
2.	What is the period for which such amounts are loaned ?
3.	What are the rates of interest charged thei eon ?
Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance).: 
TRENT VALLEY CANAL SURVEYS.
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Mr. WARD-by Mr. Bain-asked :
1.	What instructions were given to Mr. R. B. Rogers, C.E., which led to his report of 31st January, 1903, upon the proposed route of the Trent 'Vailleiy Canal between Rice Lake and port Hope ?
2.	By whom were these instructions given ?
3.	What instructions were given to Mr. McLeod, C.E., as to reporting upon the southern outlet of the Trent Valley Canal ?
4.	By whom were these instructions given ?
I-Ion. II. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :
1.	Mr. Rogers was instructed to make a barometrical survey of the route from Rice Luke to Port Hopd, taking barometrical observations and elevations, and particularly to look Into the question of the supply of water
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with which to operate this section of the
canal.	n ,
2.	By the chief engineer of the ueparr-ment of Railways and Canals.
3.	Mr. McLeod was instructed to go over
the ground to make an examination^ of the two routes, and report thereon his views as to which route was the best, and make an estimate of the cost of each, viz.,-Port Hope and via Trenton.	.
4.	The instructions were given by the chief engineer of the Department of Railways and Canals.
railway commission.
Mr. TAYLOR asked :: 
Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: 
Hon. Mr. EMMERSON.: 


Hon.   H.@: 
FLAG ON PARLIAMENT BUILDING.
Mr. HENRI BOURASSA (Labelle).: Mr' Speaker, before the Orders of the Day afe called I would like to have an explanation from the government in regard to a snaal* incident to which some newspapers and pe0' pie have attached some importance. . 1 noticed on the day of the opening of parfia' ment as well as to-day, which is St. Patrick * day, that the Canadian flag which used * be put up on the tower of the parliamen building has been replaced by a Union Jaf ~
I would like to know why the old flag ta>
has been used in Canada ever since confed ation should be laid aside.


Hon.   H.@: I am sorry to say that I can* satisfy to-day the rather fastidious curlosjj-of my hon. friend, but I will make inqun^ and try to give him an explanation up01 another day.	Is


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: Perhaps the BritiS*1 Empire League has something to do with '


Hon. JAMES SUTHERLAND (Minister 0 Public Works).: I may explain to the oy gentleman (Mr. Bourassa) that the h hitherto flown on the parliament buil<R has been what is known as the Canam, Merchant Marine flag. It is not the natio1. flag in any other sense. The national vjSg as we understand it for this purpose, is i j Union Jack. Many complaints have reacn t the department on previous occasions 1 the flag floating over the parliament b* at ings was not the authorized flag for 1 ^ purpose, and when we were buying il flag the one which was bought, tn ance with the custom of Canada and or .^ portions of the empire throughout the ^0 was the one authorized for the purpose-


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: I know that the ' j ensign is the merchant marine flag ,0uii' know it .has always been used in this c try


James Sutherland: 
IT- 1904 POSTMASTER AT WILTON, ONT.
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Mr. WILSpN moved for :
Copies of all correspondence, petitions and other documents in possession of the govern-fficnt, together with the report of the post office inspector, with reference to the charges against and the dismissal of L. L. Gallagher, Postmaster at Wilton, in the riding of Len-oox, in the province of Ontario.
The Hon.  W. S.@: Mr. Speaker, there is no objection to the motion going through except that I Would ask my hou. friend (Mr. Wilson) to strike out the words ' together with the report of the post office inspector.' These reports have always been regarded as confidential. 1 do not know of anything in this Particular report, that is confidential, but as a 'matter of precedent, I think it would be well to follow the old practice which has always obtained under this as well as former administrations.


MR. P. V. SAVARO.
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Mr. CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-moved for :
Copies of all Orders in Council, Ministerial Orders or other documents appointing Mr. P. V. Savard' advocate, formerly a member of this House ' to a position under the government, during the course of the years I9ft2, 1903 or 1904 ; of all correspondence relating to such appointment [DOT] and of all detailed accounts, memoranda, etc for salary and fees- as well as for travelling expenses and all other expenses presented by the said P. V. Savard ; and statements showing how much has been claimed by the said P. V. Savard. for such salary-and expenses-, and how much has-been paid to him.
Charles Smith Hyman: I wish to say that Mr. Savard was not appointed by Order in Council, but by a letter from the minister, dated 14th of May, 1003 and his last report was made on the 23rd' October, 1903. There is no objection to the motion.


Mr. WILSON.: I understand it is not customary to make public these reports and So- with 'the consent of the House, 1 will agree to strike out the words ' together with fue report of the Post Office Inspector.' Motion as amended, agreed to.


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Motion agreed to.

Mr. L. P. DEMERS (St. John and Iberville).: (Translation). Asked :


YUKON TERRITORY-TREADGOLD
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(<Mr. CASGRAIN-by Mr. Taylor-moved
JncfPies of the commission appointing Mr. dstice Britton and other commissioners to in-?uire into the Treadgold and other concessions (j txie Yukon Territory ; and of all the evi-enee, exhibits, papers and documents' pro's* at the investigation held by the said ^missioners, and of any report or reports by the said commissioners.
Clifford Sifton: Mr. Speaker, there is no ob-c to tlie motion passing, but, as I have iiit i already, the report has not yet been h ,e' We will bring down the papers we i ''6 and when the report is made we will lng down the rest.
<'". ffio department witli respect to fie f.'^fiMlation of cars. It would, therefore, utile to lmve the motion pass.
Motion dropped.
For copies of all correspondence, petitions, laims, and other dqeuments.^ in the_ possesion of the government, relating to the dam-ges sustained by the farmers of the counties f St. John and Iberville and Missisquoi, by he floods in the Richelieu river.
Mr. Speaker, in submitting this motion, wish to make a few remarks. The question is one of interest to the people of the hree counties of St. John, Iberville and dissisquoi. It is a well known fact that lie banks of the Richelieu river, as fai town as St. John's, are low. Every year here are freshets covering wide areas oh ,oth sides. These floods extend beyond he limits of St. John and Iberville, reading into the county of Missisquoi, and it nay be assumed With certainty that 2.),000 tores of land, to say the least, are under
ivater every year.	,
These lands are considered as being imong the most fertile in the province of Ouebec and they remain submeiged foi such a length of time, that crops cannot be grown on them. In the parish of S -Ueorge d'Henryville, for instance, a whole Shad to be deserted. The fact of these lands remaining under water so late in the season is due, in the first Place to the ac tion of the government, who, in buiiain, the1 canal from Chambly to St. John's took possession of the old , river-bed of tb* Richelieu, opposite the island The river at that point is thirty feet aeejn wlilte on the cast side of the island it a rapid. The government had selected tot location in order to save the [DOT] l building the canal for a length of turn

miles. Tlie result was that the waters flowing off more slowly, remain too long a time on the land to permit of its being cultivated. Formerly, the floods, far from interfering with farming operations, were a help, insomuch as they increased the fertility of the soil.
1	must say that the government, since I have the honour of representing the county of St. John and Iberville, have caused surveys of the locality to be made. Reports have been forwarded. Unfortunately, the suggested works have not been carried out, and the farmers claim, and rightly so, that matters should be set right or some compensation granted to them.
Motion agreed to.


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Motion agreed to.
ventilation of railway cars.
fo?1-1" E. D. SMITH (Wentworth) moved
date°* a'* correspondence and agreements to Ween tlve government of Canada and any tatilw" companies, in regard to ventilation of lway cars.
H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railin' 'tl and Canals). I cannot And any record fietw- Apartment of any correspondence the vp

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Mr. BARKER-by Mr. Taylor-moved for :
Copies of all interim and other reports, plans, maps, accounts, statements, papers, documents, and correspondence In the possession of the government, relating to surveys for the western and eastern divisions, respectively, of the proposed Transcontinental Railway.
Henry Robert Emmerson: , There are no such documents on record in the department.
Motion dropped.
Mr. BARKER-by Mr. Taylor-moved for :
Return showing : ,
1. The number and names of all persons employed by the government or otherwise in surreys for the purposes of the eastern division of the proposed Transcontinental Railway.
2	The date of the employment of each such person, his salary, the nature and term of his employment, and the portion of the survey on which he has been employed.
3.	Whether such person was so employed by the government ; and if not, by whom.
4.	The nationality of each such person, and his place of residence previous to such employment.


Hon H.   R.@: EMiMERSON (Minister of Railways arid Canals). The government have no persons employed on the eastern division of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, and, of course, the other information is not in the possession of the department.
Motion dropped.


RETURNS ORDERED WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
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Return showing the names and number of all immigration agents employed on salary by the Dominion government from the 30th June, 1902, to 1st January, 1904, in Great Britain and Ireland, the United States of America, and Europe ; the salary paid to each agent, the amount allowed for expenses to each. Also the number of immigrants sent to Canada by each of the said agents.-Mr. Wilson.
Return showing the names and number of all the immigration agents employed on com-Mr. DEMERS (St. John and Iberville).
mission by the Dominion government in Great Britain and Ireland, and in Europe, specifying the countries ; also the United -States. Also how much commission is paid for each immigrant to each agent ; how many immigrants have been sent to Canada by each agent ; how much money has been paid to each agent as commission ; and how much has been allowed to each agent for expenses from 30th June, 1902, to 1st January, 1904.-Mr. Wilson.
Return showing the names and number of the officials in the employ of the government In Canada in connection with immigration ; the salaries of each ; the amount of money spent in Canada in connection with immigration ; the total expenditure in connection with immigration, for the fiscal year ending 30th June, 1903; the expenditure for advertising; and the amount of expenditure on buildings, with names of places-Mr. Wilson.
Copies of all petitions, memorials and correspondence respecting the half-breed allotment of scrip in Manitoba and the Territories up'to date. Also copies of all reports and Orders in Council in connection therewith.- Mr. LaRiviere.
Copies of all correspondence in connection with the cutting of any timber on Hope Island, in the Georgian Bay, by any person or persons during the years 1903-4.-Mr. Bennett.
Copies of all correspondence to date between the Department of Agriculture and the steamship companies, in regard to mechanical ventilation of ships' holds.-Mr. E. D. Smith.
Copies of all agreements made since January 1st, 1903, between the governms®' of Canada and any transatlantic steamship companies receiving a bonus or subsidy from the government of Canada.-Mr. E. D. Smit®
Return showing the amount of money eX' pended by the Dominion government on i®' proving the navigation of the Saskatchewan river, in the Northwest Territories.-*r-Davis-by Mr. McCreary.
Return showing the number of timber limU® granted in Manitoba and the Northwest Tor" ritories, between the years 1878 and 1896, elusive ; and the mileage covered by sal limits, together with the amount of money P® mile received by the government for said tin ber limits. Also the number of limits tn have been granted since the present govern ment came into power, and the amount r ceived per mile for the same.-Mr. Davis- Mr. McCreary.
Copy of the report of Mr. McLeod, C.E., JP the continuation of the Trent Valley canal tween Rice lake and I-ake Ontario.-Mr. "£
-by Mr. Blain.	-
Copies of all correspondence respecting * „ sale, lease or rental of the Garrison Co®11' to the city of Toronto, or to any private PjVa ties ; and also as to tho acquirement of j. land to be used by the permanent mil tf-il forces ; together with all Orders in disposing of said Garrison Common, and ' , quiring the lands to be used for military P poses.-Mr. Clarke.	flrSt
Copies of all correspondence since the 1 of March 1903, including reports, letters. grams, &c., between the government of ' 0r ada and any of Its officers or engineer^ l0 other persons, respecting the damage do 1 tho island at Toronto by tho waters of „<[DOT]-Ontario ; also copies of any orders or in-tlons which have been issued respecting ^ works necessary or to be undertaken 1

Protection of the said island, and the preser-'ation of Toronto harbour.-Mr. Osier.
Copies of all thermograph records of temperature taken on board Atlantic steamships SlQce January 1st, 1903, stating :
1-	Name of steamship.
, 2- Date when thermograph was put in chamber. ,
2-	Date steamer left the port.
,. ** Whether chamber was (a) cold storage ; ll)) cool air; (c) mechanically ventilated; (d) Ordinary, or whether the record was taken on beck, or other place where the natural temperature of the air would be registered unex-P°sed to. the sun's rays.
°. Where practicable, in what part of the Pamber the thermograph was placed.-Mr. E.
Smith. '
. Sir WILFRID DAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.
f Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Has my right hon. Dend placed upon the table of the House J-he correspondence between the government "UU the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Com-PanJr, or the persons named In the contract ?
Wilfrid Laurier: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at [DOT]40 P.m.
house of commons.
Friday, March IS, 1904. o',SPEAKER took the Chair at Three
GrANd TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime ^ittee mov'ed that the House go into complin™?- at the next sitting to consider the °WlnS resolution :
, That if- [DOT]
t,? expedient to ratify the agreement .uhk t>
. Majesty the King and the Grand pgiuh ,iaoiflc Railway Company, dated the f'Jtceli6riay of March, 1904, transmitted by His Rouse bvywittle Governor General to this ahfl which*1 S messa&e of March the eleventh ; Sl°hs ofcf!ybries in some respects the provid'd g. toe agreement between His Majesty !ePreseri*i arles Rivers Wilson and others, s ich fr,„8 tlle said company ; a copy of 'ja-rci Vtt ms **'c sehedulo to tho Act, 3 Ed-r?v6rnineJ't ®kaPter 71 ; and to authorize the c e full „ *° (,° whatever is necessary to oicnt, effect to the first mentioned ngreo-
Crasreed to' CI°N OF PRIVILEGE-THE MEMBER FOR DIGBY.
i a t
bet°re thJ' S' COBP (Digby). Mr. Speaker, uo Orders of the Day are proceeded
with, I rise to a question of privilege. Certain statements reflecting upon my ^conduct as a member of parliament were made in one of the journals of the Dominion some time ago. The circumstances in connection with the matter referred to were so thoroughly understood in my own constituency that I did -not deem It at all necessary to make any reference to them in this House. Nor would I have ever considered it to be necessary had the matter not been brought up, in the course of debate, by two bon. gentlemen. During the present session the bon. member for East Simcoe, from bis place in the House, on the loth day of March, in the course of the debate in reply to the address, made the following statement:
Take the case of the hon * member for Digby (Mr. Copp) as heralded in the public press. Has he been reprobated by this government ?
I have read of the case in the public press and X have read the minutes of the town council. This government was to build a dock in the town of Digby, and the hon. .member for Digby goes to the town couneil, and makes an open bargain that he will use his position as a member of parliament to get a large grant for the construction of a dock in that town ; and, if my memory serves me rightly, he was paid $500 on account, and was to be paid $2,000 more on the completion of the dock. Surely it is the duty of the government to take notice of these matters. Surely this case has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance, who comes from that province	 Surely he is aware of it ; and when X make the statement that public morality in this country has sunk to a lower depth than ever known, I make a statement well within the mark.
On the 16th of March, during the same debate, tbe hon. member for Lincoln supported the charge made against me by the hon. member for East Simcoe, and proceeded to read from the 'Weekly Courier' of January 8th, 1904, published in the town of Digby, N.S., what he alleged was -an account of a meeting of the town council of Digby. He also read a copy of a contract between tbe town of Digby and myself, dated the 29th day of November, 1902.
1 purpose giving a statement of the facts in connection with the transaction referred to, and I think I will be able to convince the House that neither of these hon. gentlemen had the slightest warrant for placing upon the facts and documents which they have presented to the House, the construction which they have endeavoured to make them bear.
For some years previously to the date of the said contract the residents of the town of Digby were most anxious to secure increased wharf and dock facilities in that town, in order to accommodate tho industries near the town and to promote its material interests. Owing to the large amounts of money the expenditure of which, in the town of Digby. I had urged upon the government during the several years preceding the exe-
[Stage Direction]


cution of said contract, I was not in a position to ask the government to undertake further expenditures to any very considerable amount within the town at that time ; and I therefore deemed it more desirable to enlist the support of private individuals and companies interested in the matter. The Sissiboo Pulp Milling Company at _ this time were operating a very large business at Weymouth, which is about eighteen miles distant from Digby upon the Dominion Atlantic Railway, and were seriously complaining of the disadvantages they were labouring under in the shipment of their products. They were for this reason most anxious to secure increased shipping facilities at Digby. The matter was discussed most earnestly thsoughout the town and by the officials of the said Sissiboo Pulp Company, as well as by other shippers, and a consensus of opinion was developed to the effect that it would be desirable to build an additional strip along the north side of the government pier, with an ' L ' running northward from the end of the pier, and to have the dock thus formed dredged. This would permit of an additional track, and so provide the extra shipping facilities required. Part of the discussion among the citizens of the town was directed to the question as to what amount the town of Digby would be willing to pay so as to secure the construction of said improved wharf accommodation, in consequence of which a public meeting of the ratepayers of the town was called by the then mayor, at which the question was fully discussed, and the resolution cited in the contract was unanimously adopted. The whole project embodied in the said contract was placed before the said public meeting in all its details ; and among those present, along with many others of my political opponents, was the gentleman who had opposed me at both my elections in the county. No dissent from the project to be embodied in the said contract was expressed toy any of the persons at the said meeting, which was large and enthusiastic. I was present at the said meeting, took part in the discussion and gave my advice as to the best course to pursue. Many schemes were proposed, and it was conceded that it would be necessary for the town to aid in the undertaking, and furthermore that it would be necessary to enlist the interest and support of the companies and shippers. I had the assurance, previously to the calling of the meeting, that a large amount of extra business could he secured for the extended wharf if suitable facilities could be afforded. Previously to said meeting I had written the following letter to the town council:
Digby, November 12th, 1902. To the Town Council of Digby :
Gentlemen,-I understand that you are about to call a public meeting of the ratepayers of the town to take into consideration the question of having, proper wharf accommodation provided and the bringing to the port of Digby Mr. COPP.	.
steamers to carry freight across the Atlantic.
I have the following proposition to make in connection with these matters, which I would ask you to submit to the said meeting :-
1 will undertake to provide the necessary wharf accommodation and to bring steamers to Digby, provided the town council will enter into an agreement to pay five hundred dollars cash when the said agreement is signed and executed, four thousand five hundred dollars when the necessary' wharf accommodation is provided and ten thousand dollars when the first steamer is tied up to the wharf at Digby for the purpose of carrying freight across the Atlantic.	*
I remain, yours sincerely,
(Signed) A. J. S. COPP-
In making this proposal my intention was to interest capitalists in undertaking the work and if the proposal should be accepted-I contemplated handing over the contract to any one person or persons who would carry it to a successful conclusion. It wa| my belief, and I so expressed it at the said meeting, that the enterprise in the hands of a company would be of greater benefit to the town than if the extension wei'® made merely as a government work and managed by a department of the govern' ment. I was not anxious or even desirous of undertaking the matter myself au« suggested to the meeting the names 0 several gentlemen whom I thought m°l competent than myself, particularly M1' George Robertson, of St. John ; but tu meeting were of opinion that they worn rather deal with me. The contract tv'a accordingly entered into after the said me® ing between the town of Digby and myse**' which is the document read by the ho1' member for Lincoln. In pursuance of said contract I did a great deal of work u'f spent a great deal of time and money' K the endeavour to float the scheme. I visa® Montreal twice in connection with the ebJa ter, secured guarantees for freight n>
made up an estimate of figures showing v ^ profit that would accrue to the comPal \ constructing and operating this work-submitted the matter among others to R. Wilson Smith, of Montreal, the P]"® j dent of the Sissiboo Pulp Go., and receix , considerable encouragement from him. *' i proposition to him and to the others ta c I approached in the matter was that town of Digby would pay over to the g pany constructing the work the reman'1 $4,500 mentioned in the agreement "*' { me, and that I would secure the pay®1® ,, of the said sum from the town to the (:'Le pany or person completing the work-$500 which I received were paid t0 lt)t to cover any expense that I might be 10 to and the disbursements that I s l ,^
Hon.   H.@: The premiers of the several provinces have applied to the government for a reconsideration of the terms, which reconsideration would involve a1 readjustment of the financial arrangements between the Dominion and the provinces. The matter has never been taken up officially yet by the government, but speaking for myself personally, I said to Mr. Pugsley that I was of opinion this matter should be taken up at an early date, without stating at all in what direction.



SUPPLY.

The Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


Frederick William Borden: Has the Auditor General's Report been brought down yet ?


William Stevens Fielding: Not yet, but my hon. colleague, the Secretary of State, expects it will be ready on Monday.


Mr.   I@: It is somewhat awkward to go on with the estimates to any extent without having the Auditor General's Report before us. That was recognized last year by my hon. friend in a similar condition of affairs.


William Stevens Fielding: I quite admit that it is quite proper for my hon. friend to urge that we should not proceed until we have the Auditor General's Report, hut If he has no objection we might take up non-contentious items and begin with civil government.


Mr.   I@: I have no objection to our going on with the items of civil government, hut it must he well understood that, according to a well-known rule laid down in the past, this shall not be regarded us a precedent.	.

Hon. Mi'- FIELDING. Inasmuch as the hon. gentleman who made that historical remark is now associated with my hon. friend, I think he is quite right in reminding us of it.


Frederick William Borden: I think that the hon. gentleman spoke for the government on that occasion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Charges of management, $240,250.
William Stevens Fielding: These are the usual and ordinary charges in connection with the management of the public debt. The items vary little from year to year.	In this case,
it will be found that there are a few small increases, and some decreases. There are several small items in the increase column which are needed for the offices of the assistant receivers general, chiefly for contingent expenses. For instance, express charges are increasing on account of the increased volume df circulation. Out of one of these items may be paid small increases in salaries of certain officers. There is a reduction in the item of commissions for payment of interest on public debt, purchase of sinking funds and transfer of stock, due to the fact that some portion of our funded debt will be paid off during this year, and consequently we shall have so much less on which to pay commissions. The only other item in which there is a change, is that of expenses in connection with the issue and redemption of Dominion notes, in which there is an increase of S3,300. We are each year increasing that item, and, in doing so, I believe we are conforming to the wishes of . hon. members on both sides of the House. The object aimed at is to have cleaner Dominion notes in circulation. I think hon. members will agree that, within the last few years, there has been a decided improvement in this respect. There is room for improvement still. We are cancelling more old notes than in the past, and, though it costs us one or two thousand dollars more, I believe that it is an expenditure that hon. members on both sides will approve.


Mr.   I@: If the Minister of Finance does not object we will take this amount item by item.
Charges of management-office of the Assistant Receiver General-'Toronto, $7,300.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There is an increase here of [DOT]11200. Will the hon. minister say what it is for ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is for the genera] purposes of the office. We shall feel free to use some portion to increase one or two salaries, if we so desire, and I think part will be so applied.


Edward Frederick Clarke: To whom is it intended to give increases of salary 1 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).


William Stevens Fielding: 
Mr. SPROULE.: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am only objecting I the principle, and the principle is'the saw, I whether the amount is $200 or	$20,*''	:This mixing! of current expenses	of *	;
office and salaries is what I call attention


William Stevens Fielding: If the amount [ large I think the criticism would be son* ^ j
Office of the Assistant Receiver Geoet Montreal, $5,800.


Frederick William Borden: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
Mr. HENDERSON.: 
Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: Can the minister state whether any money was actually passed ?


William Stevens Fielding: The only question is. as to the rate of interest to be paid.


John Graham Haggart: I notice that the question has arisen in the provincial government. The provincial government claimed 5 per cent against the Dominion government on the balances due. The Finance Minister says, no, I won't pay you 5 per cent, because I can borrow money for less. Is this a part of the transaction ?


William Stevens Fielding: The question to which my hon. friend refers relates entirely to the interest and not to the principal sum. The transactions are connected, but the question whicli my hon. friend refers to, is entirely in relation to the interest, there is no dispute about the principal sum. There is a certain sum -which is determined to be due the province of .Ontario. The province desires that we should continue to pay 5 per cent, while we are legally advised that the item is not one of the class in which the Dominion is, under the constitution, obliged to pay 5 per cent. There were certain sums upon which originally 5 per cent was to be paid ; but we are legally advised that that item is not one which properly bears 5 per cent. It is like any ordinary debt, we can either pay it off| or we can let the item stand at a rate of interest to be agreed upon. We have urged that we should not be obliged to pay 5 per cent. The premier of Ontario claims that we are bound to pay 5 per cent, and it is quite likely that in one form or another there will have to be a judicial determination of that point. It does not affect the principal sum, it is entirely a question of the rate of interest to be paid.


Mr.   CLARICE@: What is the amount of the sum for which this interest was to be paid ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is upwards of two million dollars of trust funds.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did that involve any reduction of the debt ?


William Stevens Fielding: It relates to the reduction of the debt. On the question of the principal sum there is no dispute, it is now purely a question of the rate of interest to be paid.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If you have not determined the exact rate of interest that should be paid, then it cannot be anything that accounts for the reduction in the debt, it must be something else, and what is it ?


William Stevens Fielding: We have to determine the principal sums, and they affect the redaction of the public debt. The principal sums have been determined, but the rate of interest to be paid on these moneys is the point at present in dispute.


David Henderson: 
Wilfrid Laurier: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
Mr. OSLER.: Are steps being taken ,g, submit the question, which has been in c' pute for a great many years to some bunal, in order to get it out of the way-


William Stevens Fielding: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
William Stevens Fielding: I did not say that the Ontario government could legally collect that amount. I said that that question would not be worth our while to debate, because as the monejr is earning five per cent it. would be very foolish for the Ontario government to endeavour to remove it from our treasury even if they could. Whether they coyld do so or not is not a profitable subject of debate. As to the other part we have claimed that a certain portion of these moneys do not stand in the same position as subsidy moneys, and now that the amounts have been determined it is an ordinary question of account as between two parties. It has been found that as respects that class of account we owe Ontario so much and we say that as we owe Ontario that money we can do as any private person, pay the money and. square the account, or arrange that Ontario shall leave the sum in the Dominion treasury at a rate of interest mutually to be agreed upon.-We have proposed that at present, they leave the money there at four per cent. The Ontario government claim that we have no right to pay that money off but must pay them annual interest, upon it at five per cent, whether we wish to do so or not. If we cannot effect a settlement by mutual agreement, 1 presume that we will have to submit a case for adjudication.


Andrew B. Ingram: What about the other item ?


William Stevens Fielding: Nobody is asking to withdraw it and therefore we are not called upon to say anything about it.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would it not be in the interest of the Dominion that the capital amounts be paid, so that we would not have to continue to pay as high interest as 5 per cent ? Why does not the government do that ?


William Stevens Fielding: Because the matter has only recently come up as an issue, and we have not determined what is the best method of settling it. We have presented our views to the. Ontario government and they have objected ; we have referred our views to the Department of

Justice, and the Department of Jsste advises tliat we are not bound to pay o pei cent. We have so informed the Ontario government, and I suppose the next step Mill be that we shall have a reference to the court, or to some counsel amicably agreed upon, or that we should agree upon some other arrangement with reference to it.


David Henderson: 
John Graham Haggart: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
John Graham Haggart: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
William Stevens Fielding: We are getting interest on these adjusted accounts, according as the items are charged on one side or the other.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Looking at the statement of the public debt in the estimates, there appears to be a decrease of $34,500,000. I do not see any reason for that in the public accounts.
. Hon. Mr. FIELDING. This, of course, my hon. friend will see is our estimate for the year beginning next July, and in the meantime we are contemplating paying off a portion of the debt. This is our estimate of how the readjusted debt will stand on the 1st of July. *


Edmund Boyd Osler: Do I understand the minister to say that he expects to make a cash payment of $34,500,000 out of the subsidies of the country between now and the 1st of July ? I understand that some $25,000,000 will fall due within that time, but surely that will be renewed.


William Stevens Fielding: Some portion of it will be renewed and some portion will, in all probability, be transferred into a temporary loan, because in the present state of the money market it may not be deemed expedient to issue permanent debentures.


Edmund Boyd Osler: It is rather a startling statement to go oitt, that the estimates show such a decrease.


William Stevens Fielding: The whole statement taken together is all right.


Mr. MORIN.: I would like to ask the Minister of Finance, of the $3,305,450 mentioned on page 11 of the Public Accounts as paid to the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, how much has been paid to the province of Quebec ?


William Stevens Fielding: I am not quite sure that my hon. friend has quite correctly comprehended the meaning of 1)hat item . hut I have stated that I intend to bringdown a statement at an early day giving the details. This sum is not to the credit of the province of Quebec, hut is payable to the Dominion.


Frederick William Borden: If the item of $T00.<100 on page 0 represents interest on a portion of the public debt which is converted from a funded debt into an ordinary debt, should you not have something in the capital column to represent that ?


William Stevens Fielding: There will be.


Frederick William Borden: It seems to me that die observation of my hon. friend Toronto (Mr. Osier) Is justified that tins
hardly shows the actual condition of affaRs.
You are apparently reducing the liahiii ip.

of the country by a very large amount, but in reality you are not.


William Stevens Fielding: This is only intended to show the amount of interest we will have to pay. The actual amount of the public debt, which we will owe on the 1st of July, it is now difficult to determine, and we can only state it approximately. In any statement of the public debt, the temporary loans must of necessity be included. Otherwise the statement would be misleading.


Frederick William Borden: When does the loan fall due to which my hon. friend refers ?


William Stevens Fielding: A large loan of about $20,000,000, falls due in May.


Frederick William Borden: Have arrangements been made to convert that into temporary loans ?


William Stevens Fielding: The Deputy Minister of Finance is in London to arrange matters and the details are not yet public, but substantially what is proposed is that the duration of the loan shall be extended for three years, with the option during that time on the part of the shareholders of converting it into a new issue. I prefer not going into more details at present with regard to rates and so forth, as the transaction is not officially before the public, but the plan is to extend the duration of the loan for three years at rates to be agreed on, with the right to the shareholders to convert during that period the old loan into a new issue of stock at a rate to be fixed. The idea is that financial affairs will rereadjust themselves during that interval, and we will then be in a better position to issue permanent debentures than in the present state of the money market.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the present rate of interest of the loan now maturing.


William Stevens Fielding: The loan expiring is a four per cent loan.	.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I think that the proposition of the hon. minister is the only possible way to be* adopted just now, in the present state of the money market, but it seems to me rather risky to have left the renewal until within two or three months of the maturity of the, loan. That large loan should have been provided for some time ago. It would be very risky for any ordinary corporation to leave such a large amount at the risk of the money market without arranging for its renewal.


William Stevens Fielding: I may say to my hon. friend that we have not been neglecting this matter, but that it has been engaging very carefully the attention of the department for quite a number of months past. I sent Mr. Courtney to London long before the loan matured in order to make preparatory arrangements, but my hon. friend is Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
aware, that, bad as the money market is , now, it was worse then. We have been keeping in close touch with the market and seeking the most available moment to have i the transaction placed upon it.


Frederick William Borden: The first despatch f seemed to indicate that the matter had pro' gressed further than my hon. friend mentions to-day, but possibly the despatch may not I have been accurate. I think it was stated that the government was obtaining a three ; years extension, with the option on the part of the debenture holders to convert their bonds now maturing into a permanent loan at four per cent, at 105.


William Stevens Fielding: The rate is three per cent. We are not getting 105 for a three per cent loan.


Frederick William Borden: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
Frederick William Borden: What is that ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is the custom' ary charge of the banks over there.


Frederick William Borden: What is the actu*1 i transaction ?


William Stevens Fielding: 
Frederick William Borden: Will the hon. ister explain the increase ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is due to increased circulation and the desire of Wj House to have the old notes destroyed :i1 new ones issued.
Mr. 'CLARKE. How many bills of and two dollars did the department des** | last year ?	'J


William Stevens Fielding: We have troyed a great many, and I will hftve statement prepared later.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
William Stevens Fielding: 
Hon H.   R.@: 
William Stevens Fielding: Yes ; it runs for a term of years.
English bill stamps, postage, &c., $10,600.


Frederick William Borden: What does that really mean-' English bill stamps ' ?


William Stevens Fielding: The stamp duty there is quite heavy on ail financial transactions. This is a sum we have to vote every year in connection with the stamps on treasury hills and everything of that kind.
Expenses in connection with the conversion of the public debt ; payments may be made to members of the civil service, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service and Superannuation Acts, $5,000.


Hon H.   R.@: L' BORDEN. What is the meaning of that ?


William Stevens Fielding: This item was put in last year in anticipation of certain events. I anticipated that Mr. Courtney would probably retire Immediately, and I was anxious to retain his services in an advisory capacity for a year or two longer-certainly for a year -pending certain large financial transactions. It was contemplated that we might use a portion of this money in retaining Mr. Courtney's services. All that has been changed, and tbe only charge against the item has been the expenses of a couple of trips to England in connection with the transactions. If Mr. Courtney should retire at the close of the present fiscal year and I should carry out the policy then contemplated, of asking him to remain connected with the service in an advisory capacity, we Could pay for his services out of this vote. Whether that plan will be carried out as contemplated some monthe ago, I am not able to say. Mr. Courtney is in England, and I do not know whether I can retain his services. I have thought that it would be well to take the vote in the same manner as last year.
Civil Government-Governor General's Secretary's Office-salaries, $11,250.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What are tbe increases in this item ?


William Stevens Fielding: There are none, except tbe ordinary statutory increases.
Governor General's Secretary's Office-contingencies, $15,100.


Frederick William Borden: My hon. friend now comes to items as to which it would be useful to us to have tbe advantage of reading the Auditor General's Report. The expenditure on tlii's service is given in that report, is it not ?	1


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Frederick William Borden: Perhaps it would he as well to allow those items to stand, in the consideration of which we require the assistance of the Auditor General's Report. But if there are any of these items as to which

the Auditor General's Report would obviously not be of much importance, we might go on with those.


William Stevens Fielding: Each branch of the service has items of contingencies, and so each would be open to the same remark.


Frederick William Borden: Is there nothing else we can take up ?


William Stevens Fielding: Not so far as civil government is concerned, and that is all we expected to touch to-day. If the hon. gentleman would rather not go on, I have no objection to the committee rising. We have made good progress for the first day.


Frederick William Borden: I am anxious to go on, but I do not want to deal with items as to which we may require information contained in the Auditor General s Report, which is not yet before us. I may say that my hon. friends on this side would like to see the Auditor General's Report with regard to this particular item, and perhaps we could not make much progress with regard to such items to-day.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 4.40 p.m.

Monday, March 21, 1904.