1904-07-19

Hon.  W. S.@: For copies of certain papers referring to the School of Musketry at Ottawa.
He said : These are papers in connection with the statement made in this House a few days ago by the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Sam. Hughes), The hon. member for North Victoria made the following statement


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: I have received a communication to the effect that the young men who have come here to learn musketry are being taxed for the maintenance of clubs, for the maintenance of an extra mess, and for extra furnishings generally. I am also informed that privates are called upon to act as servants to officers, and that these young men who are brought from the farms to learn musketry are subjected to prison discipline. They cannot leave the camp grounds unless they get a pass and they must be in at a certain hour in the evening or they are disciplined. I am told that a number of officers and men were informed that they need not bring extra clothing or bedding, but that they had to purchase them here at considerable expense. I do not know whether or not the officer in charge of the musketry school is responsible for this. This officer goes on to say that he thinks the country pays the Cartwright family dearly enough without having the men who come to take the musketry course taxed by this extra expense. I do not think the people of this country want the young gentlemen, privates or officers who come here, to be subject to prison rule. I do not believe that a young man who comes here and chances to be a private, should give up one hour of his time to act as servants to any officer, nor do I think that the country should pay these men to act as officers' servants. I direct the attention of the minister to these grievances which I believe are founded on fact, and which should be stopped at once. I do not ask him to give any answer to-day, as I have not had time to give him notice that I would bring it up.
To which I replied :


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: This school of musketry has been in operation for a couple of years, and this is the first time I have heard any complaint. I was not aware that the system in force this year differed from that of previous years. I am sorry that my hon. friend (Mr. Sam. Hughes) saw fit to make the reference he did to the Cartwright family. I scarcely see what that has to do with it, and I am sure that my hon. friend himself would be the last man to say or to insinuate that any charges that may be imposed on officers attending the school could go into the pocket of as honourable a gentleman as Col. Robert Cartwright is known to be. I am sorry that he made that gratuitous slip. I am very glad, however, that he has called my attention to the fact, and I will make inquiry and be prepared to make a statement on the subject.
I have here, Mr. Speaker, a memorandum addressed by the commandant of the school, Colonel Cartwright, to the Adjutant General. It reads as follows
Rockcliffe, Ont., 14th July, 1904. From the Commandant Canadian School of Musketry to the Adjutant General, Headquarters.
Statement by Col. Sam. Hughes, M.P.
Sir,-I have the honour to inform you that my attention has been called to a statement in regard to the Canadian School of Musketry made in parliament by Col. Sam. Hughes.
In order that no time may be lost in disabusing the public mind of misconception in regard to the Musketry School, which might be conceived by the public if this statement were left unanswered, I forward herewith for your information :
1.	A marked copy of the musketry regulations for the Canadian militia, showing the camp bedding, &c., allowed to each officer, non-commissioned officer and man.
2.	An extract from the regulations and orders in regard to servants at the Musketry School.
3.	Nominal roll of the non-commissioned officers and men of the Royal Canadian Regiment present at the Canadian School of Musketry, showing the capacity in which each non-commissioned officer or private is employed.
4.	Parade state, showing the number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men at the Canadian School of Musketry.
In regard to the above papers, I might say first that the officers' mess is managed by a committee. Preliminary arrangements, subject to their approval, have to be made with caterers, who have everything in order to proceed with the mess from the first opening of the school. The fees are of the most moderate description and will bear the closest possible inspection.
The staff-sergeants have a mess, other noncommissioned officers have a mess, and the private soldiers have a mess. These messes are managed by a committee, in the same manner as all similar messes are managed in the service. They are spending their own money under the supervision of the adjutant.
Private Soldiers.-There are no privates taking the course at the Canadian School of Musketry. There are, however, privates from the Permanent Corps, sent down to Rockcliffe for fatigue purposes. They are used in various ways, as shown in the attached schedule. It

will be observed that the proportion ot officers' servants to officers is much smaller than that allowed by regulations. It would be a great hardship to prevent these men making extra money as officers' servants, most of the men count on making extra in this way when coming to Rockcliffe.
Bedding.-In regard to bedding, the full allowance of bedding as laid down, has been allowed to officers at this camp. Owing to the fact that at a previous camp officers were allowed sheets and pillow-cases, there may have been some disappointment on this score, but all the officers to whom I have spoken on the subject consider that sheets and pillow-cases are unnecessary for camp life. In any cas it is not a very great hardship for an officer desiring these luxuries to provide them for himself.
Clothing.-In regard to extra clothing, the officers have been given specially to understand that while at musketry work they may wear out their old uniforms. A certain number of fatigue suits have been procured from stores to issue to officers and non-commissioned officers desiring to use them.
When proceeding to Ottawa in uniform officers are required to be properly dressed. As yet, however, the adjutant has not had reason to order any officer or non-commissioned officer to procure extra uniform.
Passes.-Passes are only required for extraordinary circumstances, such as men wanting to stay out all night, or aftr 12 o'clock, or to get off some parade or other duty.
Officers are expected to sleep in camp, as at other camps.
It is, of course, thoroughly understood that officers or non-commissioned officers misbehaving or showing indifference to their studies will be sent home.
The Musketry School affairs, mess accounts, and expenditure are simply arranged and easily investigated, and the more they. are investigated or examined the more the absurdity of the attack on the management of the school will appear.
I do not bear C01. Sam. Hughes the least animosity in regard to the statements he has made, because it is clear that he has been misinformed by some malicious person, who ought to know-, and probably by this time does know, that he has made a series of absurd and misleading statements.
The question as to whether officers attending a course of instruction should be permitted the use of a soldier servant is a matter of general policy, upon which there may be a difference of opinion.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Signed) R. CARTWRIGHT,
Lieutenant-Colonel,
Commandant, Canadian School of Musketry. The Hon. the Minister,
Forwarded. I concur in the above. ''3d.) Aylmer, Colonel, Commanding Canadian Militia.
15.7.04.
I shall not detain the House by reading the rest of this report, except'to read the list of officers. The list of officers now in charge of the school is as follows :
Lieut.-Col. Cartwright, commandant.
Capt. Kemmiss Betty, adjutant.


Sir F. W. BORDEN.: Capt. Groves Contant.
Capt. de la Ronde, Q. master.
Surg.-Lieut. Birkett, M. O.
In addition to this, I have the following letter addressed by the commandant of the school to the Adjutant General :
Rockcliffe, Ont., 15th July, 1904. From the Commandant, Canadian School of Musketry, to the Adjutant-General, headquarters.
Statement by Colonel Sam. Hughes, M.P.
Sir,-I have the honour to report, for the information of the officer commanding the militia, that the under-mentioned non-commissioned officers paraded this morning before my adjutant, and, upon being interviewed individually, each made a protest against the statement made by Colonel Hughes in the House, and which was published in the ' Citizen ' of the 13th July. (Clipping attached.)
Each stated that he considered the same both inaccurate and misleading, and as unjust to himself as a student and to the staff of the Canadian School of Musketry.
Each was asked whether he had any complaint whatsoever, and whether his liberty had at any time been curtailed, and each non-commissioned officer replied in the ne- . gative, emphatically denying that there was any shadow of reason for complaint-
They requested that this protest be forwarded through the proper channel, in order that the same may be brought to the notice of the Minister of Militia, and that the insinuations contained in the remarks of the member for North Victoria be denied in the House, from whence they emanated :-
C. Sgt. Parkhill, 13th Regiment.
" McMaster, 2lst Regiment.
"	McMurphy, 26th Regiment.
"	Kuhn, 41st Regiment.
Sergt. Blakeney, 43rd Regiment.
Turner, 91st Regiment.
Street, Ottawa Engineers.
Milne, 26th Regiment.
Ferguson, 43rd Regiment.
Denny, 43rd Regiment.
Cowan, 43rd Regiment.
Menzies, 43rd Regiment.
Waters, 43rd Regiment.
Johnstone, 4!st Regiment.
Morrison, 43rd Regiment.
Corporal Andrews, 43rd Regiment.
Workman, 43rd Regimnt.
Kemp, Ottawa Engineers.
Filion, 43rd Regiment.
Shaw, 43rd Regiment.
Learoyd, 43rd Regiment.
McGuiness, 43rd Regiment.
O'Neill, 43rd Regiment.
Bindon, 43rd Regiment Mitchell, 43rd Regiment.
Simkins, 13th Regiment.
Worrall, 13th Regiment.
Zimmerman, 13th Regiment.
Marsh, 13th Regiment.
Morgan, Ottawa Engineers.
Cottee, 43rd Regiment-Heinrichs (J.), 43rd Regiment. Heinrichs, (F.), 43rd Regiment. Swallow, 13th Regiment.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) R. CARTWRIGHT, Lt.-Col., Commandant, Canadian School of Musketry.

Deputy Minister.
Forwarded in connection with previous correspondence.
(Sgd.) AYLMER, Colonel, Commanding Canadian Militia.
18, 7, '04.


Robert Laird Borden: I may say that the hon. member from North Victoria (Mr. Sam. Hughes) was called away to attend the funeral of an old friend, but he will probably be back to-morrow.


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Motion agreed to.

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Bill (No. 159) respecting the Pacific Bank of Canada.-Mr. R. F. Sutherland.

['My hon. friend can get a railway map by looking at the map of the Dominion of Canada which was issued last year.\nSome resolutions reported.']
Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


Robert Laird Borden: Before the motion is carried, I would like to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (.Hon. Mr. Prefon-taine) whether be has any further information on the subject I mentioned yesterday. Is he quite sure that the commission to which he referred, of which the hon. member for Digby (Mr. Copp) is one and some other gentlemen whom he named, is the commission formed for the purpose of dealing with this particular subject and is not a commission formed for the purpose of dealing with some other subject ?


Hon. RAYMOND PRBFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: In answering the question put yesterday by the hon. gentleman, I referred to the report of Prof. Prince, which is published in the annual report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries for 1903. His report is very voluminous, and goes over the whole question, showing that two years ago this matter was brought under the notice of the department, and a special study made of it by Prof. Prince. It covers about thirty pages of the departmental report of last year. Now as regards the study of this question which has beeii made by Prof. Prince, I will read from his report showing what was done during last year :
In view of the pressing importance of the dog-fish nuisance on the Atlantic coasts generally, the members of two commissions have been authorized to take evidence from the fishermen and report. One of these commissions, consisting of Professor Prince and Mr-Morais, held sittings in Gloucester and Resti-gouche counties in April last, and made recommendations based on the statements laid before them ; but this commission, however-was very limited in its scope.
The second commission, consisting of Colonel Tucker, M.P., as chairman, and Messrs-Copp, Armstrong, Bowers and Venning, with Reverend Father Turbide as a member in respect of the Magdalen islands, held sittings
at various points on the Magdalen Islands and the Bay of Fundy, and as the commission was authorized to inquire into the herring, sardine and lobster fisheries, as well as other important matters, it has been impossible to cover the whole ground as yet, and until the close of the second sittings this summer, it will not be possible for that commission to make final recommendations.
The question is a very large one, which will involve very considerable expenditure of public money to properly cope with it, and it is plain therefore that reliable recommendations can be made only after a very wide survey and a considerable amount of evidence from different parts of the coast has been received.
The erection of reduction works has been suggested, and it is possible that an experiment may be started at once with a view to utilizing the dog-fish for oil, fertilizing ard food purposes, and the department is in communication with important parties with a view to arriving at this end.
The department has already carried on some experiments with dog-fish as lobster bait ; but these have so far not proved very satisfactory, and should be carried on in a more extensive way later in the fall



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I may add that I have a report of the experiments that have been made, and which are very interesting. Experiments are being carried on on a still larger scale at the present time, and instructions have been given to the men employed on the fishery protection boats to see what can be done to alleviate the nuisance that is complained of. As regards the intention of the government on the subject, it will be seen within the next few days that numerous suggestions have been made. One of them, for instance, was to offer a premium for each dog-fish caught, the premium suggested being lj cents each. While the department were considering this suggestion, we received very valuable information showing that to cope with the difficulty in the way suggested, by offering a premium for each dog-fish, would cost an immense sum of money, and involve an expenditure of over $100,000 a year. The department therefore has come to the conclusion to put a certain sum of money in me supplementary estimates in order to erect reduction works where the dog-fish can be treated for oil and for fertilizing and other purposes. I repeat that the department is fully aware of the importance of this question, and will adopt all practical means to abate this nuisance. In dealing with a question of this kind, certain studies have to be made and certain experiments carried on. This nuisance is not new, it has existed in the waters of various countries, and it has been dealt with in different ways. On the coast of France, for instance, they use the flesh of the dog-fish as food, and it appears that in certain countries the people have no objection to eat that kind of fish. They find it a little coarse, but still it is palatable. But in Canada up to the pre-
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sent time people have strongly objected to use the flesh as food. Gradually, however, it may be that as a result of the experiments that will be carried on, people may come to find the flesh of the dog-fish as wholesome a food as some others ; and I think it will be found that the taking of this fish can be made a profitable commercial pursuit. Under these circumstances, I think the House and the country will be satisfied, when the supplementary estimates come down, that we have not ignored the importance of this question, and that we are trying in the most expeditious manner to give satisfaction to the fishermen.
Robert Laird Borden: The subject is certainly one worthy, not only of the immediate attention but of the immediate action of the government. The reason I thought it necessary to bring this subject to the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, was as I explained yesterday, because I found that on the 2nd of May we were promised the report of the commission within two or three days, and we have heard nothing more of the matter from that time till this. I do not believe that the people of the larger provinces of Canada realize the importance of the fishing industry to the Dominion as a whole. In speaking of the fishing industry, I am speaking of course more particularly of the fishing industry of the maritime provinces with which I have been endeavouring to make myself acquainted during the last two or three years. There has been a great deal of encouragement given to the different industries throughout this country in various ways during the last quarter of a century ; but certainly the inshore and deep-sea fishing industries of the maritime provinces have, on the whole, received as little encouragement in proportion to their importance as any of the great industries of Canada. I hope to live to see the day when the provinces of Ontario and Quebec will be fully supplied with the best fish in the world from the fisheries of the maritime provinces ; and until that day comes, and until even that market is extended much further west than the provinces I have mentioned, I for one will not be satisfied. As I mentioned last year, I think that one difficulty under which we labour in the maritime provinces with regard to this matter is that our fishermen still pursue very much the same methods that they pursued fifty, or sixty, or seventy years ago. Not very much advance as I understand-and I am speaking subject to correction by those in the House who understand the subject possibly better than I do-not very much advance has been made in pur methods of catching fish. Possibly there may have been some advance but not much. But I understand from those who are qualified to speak on the subject that not much advance has been made in the methods of curing the fish.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I am told by those who are engaged in the business that herring prepared in Norway sell at a much larger figure than our herring, and that the herring caught and cured in Scotland sell at a much higher figure than ours. So far as that part of the industry is concerned, the supply of fresh fish to the markets of Quebec and Ontario has made some progress. But that market is still in its infancy, and it cannot be much improved until better means of transportation are provided than exist at present, and I believe those means can be very much improved.
But this is only in passing. The industry as a whole is in very great danger from the invasion of the dog-fish. I have read the report of Prof. Prince to which attention has been called by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and I think he is under the apprehension that the pest may prove only temporary. As a matter of fact it has been scourging the fish and the fishermen on our coasts during the past six years from about 1898 and during the last two years it has been particularly destructive. In order to give the House some appreciation of what this destruction is, let me quote from the report of Prof. Prince, at page 52, of the 36th Annual Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, for the year 1903. His words are as follows :-
The direct harm that a plague of dog-fish can do is well nigh incredible. Thus in 1882 the pack of cured herring in the Shetland Isles was 134-GOO barrels, whereas in 1888, owing to the presence of dog-fish, the total quantity fell to 99,000 barrels, and in 1889, even lower i. e. not more than 47,000 barrels or only about one third of the pack two years before and representing therefore am enormous total loss.
Then, quoting press reports, further on he says this as to our own fisheries along the Atlantic coast :
Every week brings reports from widely different points about the trouble by dog-fish, which are far more formidable pests by sea than the potato-bug is by land. Therefore some people contend that the government should take the matter up and do something to exterminate the invading swarms of dog-fish, or make them scarcer. Now let it he remembered that the fisheries department is not altogether unmindful of the loss suffered each year from this source. The officials, as we remarked before, have been instructed to collect information and tender advice. That was the proper thing for a preliminary step, and the parties applied to should have responded to the best of their ability, but it cannot be learned that many of them did so.
I may say that as far as I am personally concerned, I have not had the difficulty which Prof. Prince mentions in his report, because I have applied to some people familiar with the subject and I have in every instance received full and comprehensive and very practical reports, some of which I propose to submit to the House before I sit down. Prof. Prince's report is quite exhaustive and it is of course so long that I

could not venture to Inflict the whole of it upon the House. He says at page 57 of the report:
The government has been urged to offer a bounty for the capture of a dog-fish. In some parts of the world dog-fish are caught for their oil, but the industry is not very profitable. It is claimed, however, that if a bounty was offered the fishermen would make systematic efforts to destroy this pest, that as the dog-fish were killed off the value of the fisheries would increase and that in a few years the bounty could be withdrawn without injury to the fisherman.
Then he goes on to mention about a dozen suggestions which have been made to the government. Some of these do not commend themselves to my judgment and apparently they do not commend themselves to the judgment of Prof. Prince. After dealing with those suggestions he goes on to say :
If, as seems clear, the commercial products yielded by dog-fish bring such low returns in the market, that it will not pay oil and fertilizer factories to utilize them, and cannot therefore pay the fishermen to fish for them or even to save them when caught accidentally, then a bounty paid by the government seems to be necessary. The livers of dog-fish bring to the fishermen 25c. per pail and at least 50 dog-fish are required to make a pail of livers, and the loss of hooks, bait, and time, have all to be included, hence only the encouragement of a bounty will ensure the energetic and continuous destruction of these fish. Certainly the suggestions numbered 1, 2 and 3 would probably harm the schools of valuable fishes as much as the detested dog-fish, while the employment of a few vessels or government cruisers would not suffice to deal with so general a pest as the dogfish on our shores. Reliance can be placed only on the co-operation of the fishermen all along the coast stimulated by a bounty fairly and effectively distributed on a workable basis. Unless, indeed, the dog-fish in the meantime take the course they have so commonly done in former times and on other coasts, and disappear as suddenly as their hordes originally have appeared. The problem would then solve itself.
I would also like to bring to the attention of the House, because the suggestions which are here made may be of assistance to the lion. Minister of Marine and Fisheries in dealing with the subject, a communication which I have received from a gentleman who is very well known in Nova Scotia and who is very largely interested in the fish business. This is Mr. Howard Smith, of the firm of N. & M. Smith, of Halifax. I asked him in the month of January last to give me his views on the extent of the pest and the best way to deal with it, and Mr. Smith was good enough to write me a letter, dated the 28th January, which is as follows :-
Dear Mr. Borden :-As promised, I send you herewith a few ideas and suggestions as to how best to combat this bete noir of our coast fishermen, the voracious dog-fish. I do not speak from experience as a practical fisherman, merely repeating sundry scraps of information picked up from the hardy toilers on our shores, who, 222".
on good grounds, consider this their worst enemy.
I think that Mr. Smith's modesty has led him to probably undervalue the information upon which he speaks, because I happen to know that he has devoted a good deal of time and study to this question and has taken a great deal of interest in it. He goes on as follows :-
Nor are they alone suffering from its ravages. Reports to hand this year from Norway, state that the fishery there was greatly handicapped on account of the enormous schools of dogfish following the codfish, &c., as they swam over their favourite haunts and feeding grounds. Newfoundland fishermen also view with alarm his first appearance last year in small schools. Our American neighbours have awakened to the injury done, particularly their inshore fishery, and the Gloucester newspapers, and fishing gazettes, cry aloud for government action to eliminate, as far as possible, the evil.
I have lately read that ' Mr. Irving Field ' of Harvard University, under the direction of the United States bureau of fisheries, has devoted the summer to the study of the scarcity of lobsters and their destruction by other denizens of the sea. He has brought out the fact that dog-fish is one of the fiercest enemies against which the lobster has to contend, working more destruction than any other of the finny tribe. This species of shark is very voracious, and is declared to be no small factor in depleting the number of lobsters on the coast.
' Mr. Field by the examination of the stomachs of several hundred of the dog-fish, found that next to the rock crab, and the spider crab, the lobster is the chief article on which the dogfish feeds. In several of the stomachs were found lobsters partially digested, which measured over seven inches in length, and the presence of two smaller lobsters in a single stomach was not uncommon. If this be true, an additional reason exists for making wear upon the dog-fish.
' Mr. Field also experimented with dog-fish as food, and declares it to be an article of great merit. Both himself and colleagues partook of it, and pronounced the fish savoury and palatable. It was afterwards served in the marine biological station to hundreds of students and professors engaged in scientific work, without their knowledge of the species, and all pronounced it one of the finest flavoured of fish. It is a favoured fish with those natural epicures, the Japanese, and it is also used as a food by the inhabitants of the Bermudas, by whom it is called 'Nurseflesh.' The name, and difficulty in preparing the fish is the chief objection to its use as an article of diet.'
I have been repeatedly told the fish is an excellent article of food, if care is taken to keep from deteriorating until cooked. Unless put on ice, it tqrns bad in ten or twelve hours, the flesh being particularly rich. Our herring or mackerel exposed in the same manner would keep at least 24 hours. Its possibilities as an article of food to be put up in any quantity, are yet in an experimental stage. Personally, I think it is only a question of prejudice due to the name and the depredatory habits of the marauders.
One thing sure, and that is, they can be used as a fertilizer, after the oil has been extracted from the liver, and the skin can be dried for sand-paper purposes, the latter giving an almost indestructible surface for polishing. Moreover,

the fins, by simply boiling in water, produce the finest glue. One ounce of glue is said to be obtained from seven ounces of fins.
Now here Is the germ of my ideas. Bonus fertilizing factories, say at the rate of $2 to $3 per ton output, whenever a certain proportion of their output is dog-fish residue ; pay the fishermen Jc. per dogfish to enable them to fit out and attack, this, their natural enemy.


Mr. KENDALL.: How much ?


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Smith says a quarter of a cent. I <ft) not know whether that is adequate or not.


Mr. COWAN.: That is cheap fishing.


Robert Laird Borden: This is a bounty, my hon. friend (Mr. Cowan) must understand. Although my hon. friend seems to regard this as a humorous subject as I have observed by his conversation when I was speaking, let me tell him that this is a subject of some moment to the people of the maritime provinces, and that possibly it would be well for him to try and get a little information on the subject rather than to spend his time in jeering while the subject is being discussed.


Mahlon K. Cowan: It is an inspiring subject.


Robert Laird Borden: For the above remuneration, I feel sure, they would make a dead set on it, and you, or any other politician, instrumental in securing such a measure, would be their ideal representative.
These factories could be under the supervision of the fishery wardens or government fishery agent, in each county, the bonus to the fishermen to be paid through the factory owners, who would be solely responsible to their shippers, i.e., to the people supplying them with the dogfish. They would be remunerated by the government paying them 25c. per 200 for the dog-fish horns, i.e., ic. for each dog-fish, two horns being on each fish). I mention ' horns ' because the tails, heads, or other part of them could be imitated from other fish, not so the horns. These could be burnt, or easily destroyed afterwards.
In this way you would be encouraging a new industry, manufacturing fertilizing, glue, &c., fostered under a policy that you advocate, and the fishermen would be profitably employed when the dog-fish virtually stops ail other work. There is no question of the damage done, which, measured in dollars runs up to the hundreds of thousands.
These dog-fish first appeared on our coast about the time the so called Cape Shore mackerel fleet from Gloucester, came down fishing from Yarmouth to Canso in the spring. The fish seemed to follow these vessels swallowing all the entrails, &c., of the mackerel, as thrown overboard. They usually remain here until the run of fat mackerel in the late fall, principally feeding on what are called ' bait fish,' i.e., the younger schools of herring, mackerel, caplin, &c., and, as Mr. Irving Field states doing irreparable harm to the infant lobster. If this is so, you can readily see the damage done is simply enormous.
I direct attention to this part of the com-mnnication and I have no doubt that many Mi. R. L. BORDEN.
of my hon. friends on the other side of the House from the maritime provinces will be able to substantiate what Mr. Smith says :
Take a case like last year, when the fall schools of fat mackprel passed southward to their winter feeding grounds in the vicinity of Florida (or wherever else it may be). The dog-fish unfortunately infested our shore, and were on the inside of the schools of fish with the result that the body of mackerel kept miles off shore, and the expected harvest for our hardy toilers, passed along, virtually untouched. In former years, with no dog-fish, it was not an unusual thing to hear of 10,000 barrels of mackerel being taken in a day between Halifax and Lunenburg.
Hon. gentlemen will note that Mr. Smith is speaking simply of a single day's catch.


Mr. WM. ROSS (Ontario).: What is the value of a barrel of mackerel ?


Robert Laird Borden: Mackerel have very much increased in price during late years ; my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. Kendall) can give you reliable information as to that.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: The value ranges from ten to fifteen dollars.


Robert Laird Borden: That would represent from $100,000 to $150,000 for one day's catch along that portion of the shore between Halifax and Lunenburg. As Mr. Smith explains these fish remained off shore last year for the reason that the dog-fish got between the mackerel and the shore, so that the mackerel were driven off and the fishermen could not catch them. Mr. Smith continues :
The same remarks apply as to herring, codfish, &c. Our inshore fisheries are no longer profitable, and this is the only explanation so far forthcoming.	-
Now, why I advocate the establishing and encouraging of fertilizing works is this. If the fishermen are bonused per 100 to catch these fish, after cutting out liver (for the oil) and Saving the token, i.e., tail, horns, or whatever else it may be, they would throw the rest overboard. Now, bitter experience has taught us that this method of polluting the fishing grounds is dangerous in the extreme, witness the( total disappearance for years from Fortune bay, Newfoundland, of herring that every fall came there in countless millions to feed. The careless throwing overboard of herring that fishermen had caught, attempted to freeze, and weather turning mild caused them to deteriorate, so poisoned the favourite haunts of the fish that they left years ago, and have not yet returned in any quantity, and a most profitable industry was thereby ruined. Most stringent laws in Newfoundland, now govern this feature of the question, and as a result, Bay of islands, Newfoundland, where these same herring now go, gives up every fall from its depths, sixty to one hundred thousand barrels of pickled and frozen herring.
I may say that Professor Prince in corroboration of what Mr. Smith has said,

states in his report, that these dog-fish seem gifted with an exceptionally keen sense of smell; that they frequent portions of the coast where fish offal or dead fish are thrown overboard, and that this practice has the effect of attracting dog-fish to the loca'-ity. Mr. Smith continues as follows :
To come nearer home, and to the question at issue with us. Years a.go the Cape Ann fishermen were greatly troubled by dog-fish on their haddock and hake grounds. The dog oil was profitably handled then, and when the fishery was interfered with by these dogfish, they rigged trawls to catch them for 4their liver alone, throwing the body overboard,-result, no fish of any kind will feed or breed on these fishing grounds.
Mr. Smith continues by saying that if some scheme on this line were worked out, he thinks such progress would be made in exterminating the dog-fish as would before long afford a very desirable relief from this pest. I also communicated with another gentleman in the maritime provinces who has very great experience in matters relating to the fishing industry. I asked his opinion on the subject, and although his views differ slightly from those of Mr. Smith, still, as he is a man of very great experience, and as this question is to be considered by the government, and as I know a number of my friends in the maritime provinces take a very keen interest in the subject, I will read a portion of this gentleman's suggestions to the House, in order that the bon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries may have them before him if he sees fit to consider them, and possibly make some use of them. The gentleman to whom I now refer is a man of the firm of A. Wilson & Sons, of the city of Halifax, who are large dealers in fish.


William Ross: Is that Mr. Robert,?


Robert Laird Borden: The Messrs. Wilson, of Halifax, well known fish dealers. My hon. friend is no doubt well acquainted with them.


William Ross: I am well acquainted with them.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend will agree with me that they are men of excellent business standing, and men of excellent business judgment in every way.


William Ross: Certainly ; that is the case.


Robert Laird Borden: and the Mediterranean. We are advised that the dog-fish caught off the cost of Norway are cured and marketed in the Mediterranean ports.
I (think Professor Prince reports that these dog-fish have been caught off the coast of Norway for a great many years, and that not oniy have they been utilized for their oil, but also for food purposes in the manner suggested by Mr. Wilson. This letter continues.
We tried last December to get a sample of these dog-fish sent out to us to verify the fact that they were exactly the same kind of dogfish as we get on our shore, hut were too late applying for samples as all had been disposed of. We think there is little doubt but that they are exactly the same, because we know that what few dog-fish are taken by British North Sea fishermen are identical with ours. We noticed by late editions of our newspapers that the ^Department of Fisheries intended looking into this dog-fish question through or by the biological society during the coming season.
This appears to us to be putting the matter off for another year at least for no earthly good that we can see, and which will work considerable harm as it will give the dog-fish another year in which to multiply.
No amount of scientific research will in any way lessen the scourge, and we think their life and habits are sufficiently well known. Now we would like to suggest the following course instead of that proposed by the Department of Fisheries.
That a sum of say ($10,000) ten thousand dollars be set aside for the purpose of having a quantity of dog-fish caught, cured, dried and exported with a view of making a market and commercial value for any and all dog-fish that can or may he caught hereafter.
That the Department of Fisheries select a thoroughly competent practical fish curer to put. this test through. That he be empowered to select as many competent curers (fishermen or others) at as many different points along the affected coast to supply a stated quantity of properly cured dog-fish under a guarantee of say two dollars per quintal for only fish that come up to the standard. Any badly canned fish to be the canner's loss. These fish to be gathered together at Halifax or some other suitable shipping point for distribution to the different markets as a trial. This would enable the government to use up in the vicinity of 5,000 quintal of dog-fish this year; and if the experiment proved a success in the selling markets, as we believe it would, it would not cost the country one cent, because they would get the total cost of fish back in returns, and would probably do away with the necessity of the giving of a bonus for the destruction of the dogfish by demonstrating that they had a commercial value.
There have been numerous other suggestions put forward for the destruction of the dog-fish, but all so far as we have heard, have been in the nature of recommending a government bonus or bounty without a reason-abe recommendation for the utility of the dog-fish when caught, except that of manufacturing glue from the skin, oil from the liver, and fertilizer from the balance.
This scheme would be workable only at points where large 'fleets operate, because it would only be at such points that a sufficient Mr R. L. BORDEN.
quantity of dog-fish could be had to warrant any concern- erecting and operating a plant. This as you are aware would cover very few points on our coast where the fishing villages are so numerous and yet so small. Then, again, the advocates of this plan assert that a bounty of not less, than $4.50 per ton would pay them, which we conclude means that they would want that bounty paid them as long as they operated.
A bounty may yet be necessary, but we think not. if our suggested experiment is tried in a businesslike manner through a thoroughly competent man.
Then he makes some criticism about the way in which such matters have been handled, which I will not read to the House, I have also made an inquiry of and had a conversation with another gentleman who is very well known in the fishing industry of Nova Scotia-Mr. E. C. Whitman of Messrs. A. N. Whitman & Sons, of Ganso. He discussed the matter with me more fully than he has written to me on the subject. His opinion as conveyed to me in a personal interview was decidedly in favour of a bounty, and the erection of reduction stations in order to utilize the fish for fertilizing purposes, after first extracting the oil, and making use of any other products of the fish that might be commercially profitable. I -may, however, read what he has written to me on these and other matters, in response to my request to give me a memorandum of what he thought might reasonably be done by the .government to place the fishing industry of the maritime provinces on a better basis than it occupies to-day. His memorandum of requirements is as follows :
1st. Improved transportation between the east and the west by better refrigerator cars and faster time.
That undoubtedly is absolutely necessary if we are to supply the markets of Quebec and Ontario with fresh fish, as the abundance of these fish in the past would amply justify us in expecting that they could be supplied.
2nd. Have an exhibit of our fish and fishery products at the St. Louis exhibition.
3rd. Have an exhibit at all important fairs in western Canada annually, and during the exhibition have fresh ocean fish properly cooke'd and tastefully served to visitors.
This is of course for the purpose of impressing our friends in Quebec and Ontario, and especially my hon. friend from Essex (Mr. Cowan) with the advantages to be derived from an occasional diet of fish from the maritime provinces.
4th. Establish one or more experimental fishing stations where the most improved methods of catching, curing and marketing fish may be demonstrated. At one of these stations operate for a year a modern steam trawler (as is now being done by the South African government), as well as a steam herring drifter, to demonstrate whether these

methods of catching fish are as superior here as they have proved themselves in other countries.	j
I believe this proposal has not altogether found, favour with some of the fishermen themselves. They have some objection to or prejudice against it. I am not myself in a position to say whether it would be advisable to adopt it or not ; but the methods of catching fish in the maritime provinces might certainly be improved, and it is beyond question that the methods of drying and curing fish might also be improved, and it only needs a little assistance to the fishermen to enable them to adopt these improvements. The fishermen along the coasts of the maritime provinces are as intelligent and adaptable people as are to be found anywhere in the Dominion of Canada or on the continent of America, and if they are given the means of learning improved methods, I have not the slightest doubt that they will at once avail themselves of them. He goes on to say :
At these stations all waste material, such as offal and non-edible fish should be utilized and converted into fertilizer, oil and glue.
5th. Pay a small bounty for the destruction of dog-fish to the fishermen or to reduction works established to make fertilizer and oil front them.
6th. Enlarge the scope of the biological station and make it a permanent structure on the plans of the United States Fish Commissioner's Station at Wood's Hole, Mass. Make it of sufficient importance and interest to attract each year our best scientific men to investigate the fisheries and to discuss them. I
I have thought that the importance of this subject justified me In bringing these suggestions to the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. There is no. doubt that this pest has continued for five or six years and that up to the present time no means have been taken by the country as a whole to do away with it beyond the recent investigations which have been made by the Department of Marine and Fisheries. We have not the report of these investigations before us ; but the consensus of opinion, so far as I can gather it, seems to be that in order to accomplish the destruction of the dog-fish, or at least an abatement of their numbers, so that they will not interfere materially with the fish which frequent our shores, some aid by way of bounty or otherwise will have to be given to the fishermen to catch them. That seems to be the consensus of opinion on the part of those whom I have consulted or with whom I have conversed on the subject, and who are well qualified to speak with authority on a question of that kind. I admit that it is not a matter into which the government should plunge hastily. I realize fully that proper experiments and investigations must be had before the subject is dealt with ; but I would respectfully submit to the government, and especially to my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, that nearly three months have elapsed since his answer to which X have referred was given in this House, and the government seem to be making haste, not simply slowly, but altogether too slowly in this regard. The fishing season of this year will very soon be past, and it is important that some means should be taken to abate this scourge during the past season. I therefore trust that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will give his early and earnest attention to this subject, and if possible do something by which the fishing industry of the maritime provinces will be placed once more not only in as good a position as that which it formerly occupied, but even in a better position. If this is not done, and if the prediction of Prof. Prince that the dog-fish will disappear should prove to be unfounded, the results will be disastrous to a very important industry in the maritime provinces and indeed to the country as a whole; because this industry is valuable not only for the wealth it produces, but also for the hardy race of mariners which it sustains. In view of all these considerations, I trust that my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will move a little more rapidly in this matter, and that some effective measures may be taken during the present season.


Mr. A. J. S. COPP.: Mr. Speaker I do not rise to discuss this matter, but merely to refer to a misunderstanding that seems to exist with 'regard to the two commissions which have been appointed. The commission of which Prof. Prince is a member is, I believe, in a position to report, 'and has already reported on this question. The commission of which I am a member is not in a position to report. I may say that we had no means of meeting until after the last session of parliament.


Robert Laird Borden: Would my hon. friend explain the exact object of the commission to which he belongs ?


Albert James Smith Copp: The scope of that commission embraces the lobster question, the herring industry, and I think also the dog-fish. ,We only assembled after the close of last session and as matters of great importance had to be attended to in the Magdalen Islands, the commission first went there and settled the question as to the spring season of the lobster catch. We then, in December met at St. Andrews and proceeded to Grand Manan. My hon. friend will remember that last winter was probably one of the worst in the history of Nova Scotia and it was very trying for us moving around in St. Andrews Bay. We found that it was impossible for us to hold our meetings with any success. We then held a meeting at

North Head, Grand Manan and also two meetings at Grand Harbour. Finding that .wo could not make any headway we concluded to adjourn and to meet again at tlie call of the chairman under instructions from the Minister of Marine. It is, I believe, the intention of the commission to assemble immediately after the close of the session and I am in hopes that we will be in a position to make a report that will commend itself to hon. gentlemen of this House, and probably in some way solve this question of the extermination of these pests. There seems, however, to be a great difference of opinion as to how the bounty shall be applied. I do not think there is any question as to the need of a bounty, the great question is how shall that bounty be given. That is the question upon which we shall be called upon to report. I feel as the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) feels, that this is a question of great importance to the fishermen and people of the maritime provinces. I do not agree with him that the Minister of Marine is not dealing with this matter ; I think he is dealing with it in a way that will commend itself to the fishermen of the maritime provinces, but it takes a little time. It is an entirely new question and is one that in my opinion should not be dealt with hastily. The question as to whether the bounty shall be paid to the fishermen direct or to fertilizing factories or in some other way is one that should receive consideration and be dealt with not in a hasty manner, but in a way that will commend itself to the people who are most interested.


Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR.: Would my hon. friend inform the House who are the members of the commission to which he belongs?


Albert James Smith Copp: The commission of which I am a member consists of Ool. Tucker, chairman ; Mr. Denis, assistant commissioner of Fisheries, Mr. Armstrong, of St. Andrews, Mr. Bowers, of Westport, Pictou county and myself.


John Howard Sinclair: I wish to join the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) in pressing this very important matter on the attention of the government. I would have done so earlier in the session but I was aware that the government were dealing with this question and endeavouring to solve it. As was remarked by the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden) it. is not a question with which we ought to deal hastily; it is one of great difficulty. I expect that the government are overwhelmed with suggestions to deal with the matter in one way1 or another, but while it is easy to suggest, it is very difficult to apply practical remedy. For example, the editor of the ' Coast Guard,' one of the most important fishing newspapers, has stated that a bounty of one and a half cents per dog-fish would probably involve an ex-Mr. COPP.
penditure of $50,000 a day. That was his estimate, provided that one quarter of the fishermen who might engage in dog-fishing would drop their other work and attend to the catching of dog-fish.


Mr. CLARKE.: What would be the advantage to the country ?


John Howard Sinclair: The advantage of course might be the preservation of our fish. The fisheries are of so much importance that it is worth while spending a great deal of money for their preservation. We have in Canada the most valuable fisheries in the world ; we have a coast line on the eastern shore, between the international boundary and Labrabor, of something like 5,600 miles.


Robert Laird Borden: The estimate which my hon. friend has given of $50,000 a day as the cost of a bounty of 1* cents per dogfish. seems to be a very large estimate. It would mean nearly three and a half million dog-fish a day.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: That estimate is rather under than over.


Mr. FIELDING.: Fishermen might make a specialty of catching dog-fish rather than other fish.


John Howard Sinclair: I am told by fishermen that dog-fish are easily caught. A clever fisherman can catch from 500 to 1,000 a day and with a bounty of li cents per dog-fish he could make good wages. Probably 1J cents would be high. At all events that is the estimate of Mr. Nickerson, who is an expert in fishery matters.


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Smith suggested only 1 of a cent.


John Howard Sinclair: 
Robert Laird Borden: They do not charge any export duty on the dog-fish ?


John Howard Sinclair: I believe not. The Cape  Ann News, ' a few days ago, said in reference to the dog-fish pest on the coast of Maine :
From indications the fishing industry off the Maine coast will be seriously injured, if not practically ruined for a time at least. This i* due to the dog-fish plague which is beginning to assume serious proportions. The dog-fish increase so rapidly and keep other fish so frightened that they threaten to seriously interfere with fishing for the whole season.
In conversation with the Rockland Star man, one of the oldest and best known fishermen in that section made the statement that unless some way was found to exterminate these pests the fishing interests would be practically ruined.	.
' Something has got to be done,' he said, ' and that right away. It is a matter that will not allow oi delay, but the question is what shall be done ? '
Years ago we had the same kind of a plague with blue-fish. They are just as bad as the dogfish when they congregate in large schools and can drive any fish except lobsters. The latur used to fight the blue-fish just the same as they do the dog-fish to-day. Now, however, you hear practically nothing about the destruction wrought by blue-fish because they do not destroy. The reason for this is that they are kept caught up so close that they*do not have, much of a chance to get together and make attacks on the other fish. The blue-fish has been discovered to be a fine food and there is a great demand for it and immense quantities of it are now sold during the season.
We have gotten rid of the blue-fish and now we have the dog-fish, something just as bad. The question is what shall we do to them to get rid of the pest ? It is known that their flesh is not poison and can be eaten, but on account of its stringy composition it is not popular so it is not very probable that the fish will ever become a great food. They have one feautre of value, however, and that is their skin. This makes one of the finest kinds of sandpaper imaginable. It is just like an emery stone and very smooth. It is possible that perhaps this part might be utilized to such an extent that there might be quite a demand for the fish, but this does not seem probable.
T'lien lie goes on to suggest that a bounty is probably the best way of settling the question.


Robert Laird Borden: Do we suffer from the blue-fish?


John Howard Sinclair: I believe not, at least I am not aware that we do. I suppose that probably the best solution if it can be arrived at is to make this fish marketable, to find, if we can, some commercial use for it. As private capital does not seem willing to undertake the task of doing that, I think some government assistance should be given. I have also been in correspondence with Mr. Whitman, who has been studying this question for a number of years, and he does not seem to be much in favour of a bounty. I
will read an extract from the most recent letter I have had from him.


Robert Laird Borden: He was in favour of it when he discussed it with me.


John Howard Sinclair: I think he is in favour of it, but I think he feels that it might lead to a good deal of difficulty. In the first place, if you give a bounty for catching the fish you must also find some way of utilizing them. As the leader of the opposition has suggested, it would not do to throw them into the sea, it would not do to pollute the water with them. Consequently you must face this question. What are you going to do with them after you catch them ?


Robert Laird Borden: There must be some inducement to bring them ashore.


John Howard Sinclair: Certainly, and I trust the government will be able to provide ample inducement to the fishermen to bring them ashore. Mr. Withman's letter says :
I am sure this is a difficult matter to deal with. May I offer a suggestion ? Let the department establish at some central point a reduction plant to test what commercial use can be made of these pests. If it is found that they can be profitably reduced to oil and fertilizer it will lead others to undertake the business. The government can by such an experiment prove whether a bounty is necessary or whether a high enough price can be paid for the fish to induce fishermen to catch them.
At this experimental plant some dog-fish can be prepared for lobster bait, some more for export to southern countries, where they are used for food, a few can be tinned and any other possible use for the fish tried.
A plant of the most approved process, The Edison Process, to treat 20 tons a day, can he installed for about $20,000 and would want a working capital of about the same amount to run it for a year.
Now that is valuable information. To erect one of these plants at some point on the coast would cost about $20,000, and for an expenditure of about $20,000 more it could be.run for a year. He does not tell us what the profit would be. If we produced 20 tons a day of fertilizer in ope of these factories, the chances are that it would be a profitable industry and that private capital would be induced to go into it and develop it, provided that the government first took it up and showed that it could be made profitable. I think that is one of the most practical suggestions that has been made. Of course there are many other ways proposed of disposing of thesfe fish. It has been said that they could be used for lobster bait, and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries very promptly tested that question. A ship was fitted out with lobster traps and sent along the coast to find out whether these dog-fish could be used for lobster bait, and a return has been made to the department which I have seen, and which shows

that the experiment has not been successful, -that the lobsters do not take that bait tas readily as they do other species of bait that have been used. These experiments of course are useful, but you will see, Mr. Speaker, the difficulty of the situation, and how important it is that all these experiments should be tried, and that all the information we can possibly obtain should be got before any step is taken. 1 have every confidence that we can safely leave this important matter in the hands of the government.


William Ross: I do not often speak in this House, but when I do speak I generally make myself understood, and am not afraid to express my opinions very frankly and freely. I corresponded with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries on this subject, and I objected to the personnel of this commission. I do not think that a gentleman learned in the law, busy at his profession, studying the decisions of eminent jurists both in Great Britain and the United States, is at ail the most fit person to be placed on a commission of this kind. Neither do I think that the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Tucker), who has had a military training and whose turn of thought may be in that direction, is eminently fitted to serve on that commission. Do not suppose. Mr. Speaker, that I aspire to be placed on the commission myself. I have a sufficient sense of my own ability to lead me to decline the offer if it were made to me. If the Minister of Railways and Canals wished to appoint a commission to deal with a difficult railway question he would appoint eminent engineers for that purpose.


Albert James Smith Copp: Do I understand the hon. member to say that he wished to serve on that commission ?


William Ross: I said that I had sense enough of my own inability to fill that position, and that I would not accept it if it were offered to me; and that, I think, would have been the proper course for my hon. friend to pursue. Now I read the report of Professor Prince, it is an exhaustive report, and he has dealt with the matter from a scientific point of view. He speaks from the experience of a practical fisherman ; and my idea of a commission would be one composed of men trained all their lifetime to the business of fishermen, selected from different parts of the province, and not confined to men from the Bay of Fundy, inasmuch as the difficulty extends oyer the whole coast of Nova Scotia to Prince Edward Island. I had letters on this subject the other day from fishermen in my own county who had taken their nets ashore. They are idle now from the scourge of the dog-fish that frequent the coast. The same nuisance exists at the entrance to the Bras d'Or. Now the main question is, what can be done to reduce this


John Howard Sinclair: nuisance, for to exterminate them altogether is out of the question. There are three main ideas held on this subject. One is that they may be used for fertilizing purposes. Then there is the oil. A gallon of dog-fish oil is only worth about 15 cents, and if the government would raise the price of that oil to 25 or 30 cents, at most, the fishermen would catch dog-fish for the sake of the oil and confine themselves to that fishing alone.


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK (Postmaster General).: How could the government raise the price from 15 to 30 cents ?


William Ross: They might as well do that as give a bounty on the dogfish caught. It is only a different way of expending the money.


Mr. KAULBACH.: How does the hon. gentleman propose that the government should raise the price of oil ?


William Ross: I have been asked that question already. The government propose to spend a certain amount of money for the purpose of reducing the quantity of dog-fish. Might they not just as well take part of that money and give it to the fishermen, who would then spend their whole time catching dog-fish for the sake of the oil ? They won't do so now because the price is too low. Now the idea that dog-fish can be used for lobster bait is absurd. Lobsters are like ourselves, they have a taste of their own, and they select what will suit their taste and reject what does not. Only in the last resort will lobsters take dog-fish for bait, when they can get nothing else. The fish in the sea have their tastes, and prefer certain kinds of bait to others. The animals on land have their tastes also, and so do we in this House. Now there was an idea thrown out by Mr. Smith, I think, in the report that was read by the learned leader of the opposition, about the quantity of mackerel that would be caught from Lunenburg to Halifax. The dog-fish may frighten the mackerel off the shore so that they won't frequent their old haunts. But the quantity of mackerel that the dog-fish would eat would have no more effect on the great body of mackerel than the flour that the members of this House would eat compared with the quantity that is produced in Ontario or the great Northwest.


Robert Laird Borden: He said that the dogfish got between the shore and the school of mackerel and drove the mackerel off the shore so that the fishermen could not get at them.


William Ross: I think there are two things that interfere with our success in catching mackerel as we used to do ; first, as has been stated, the dog-fish drive the mackerel into deep water, then in the second place the purse seines used by the

American fishermen in the spring of the year frighten the fish out into deep water, whereas in the old times they used to trim the shore. A question has been asked about the price of mackerel. Mackerel' is divided into three classes. Spring mackerel, belong to class No. 3 because they are poor and thin. Mackerel that are caught in August are No. 2. They are getting fat and white. Mackerel caught in September, October and November are No.l. There are three classifications depending on the fatness of the fish and the size of them and there are three prices. I have sold mackerel at $22.50 a barrel and the year before last from $18 to $20 a barrel could be readily got for No. 1 mackerel in the market at Halifax. But last year the price was lower. Spring mackerel find a market in the southern states and West Indies and fat mackerel all over the United States. I understood from the reports that were made the papers that some of these commissioners had reported already and had recommended that the tail should be cut off the dog-fish as an evidence of their having been caught and destroyed. I know enough of the dog-fish to know that if you cut their tails off and let them go they will be as destructive as ever. I do not think any person possessing a sane mind would adopt that method of destroying the dogfish.


William Ross: On a very small scale.	.	*
Mr. BEIfL. Where ?


Mr. ALEX. JOHNSTON.: By Mr. H. A. Baker, of Gabarus.


William Ross: 
Robert Laird Borden: I think my hon. friend has misunderstood. The suggestion was that the horns should be preserved for the purpose of identification, not that the fish should be thrown away. Both letters that I have read express the very strong opinion that the fish should not be returned to the water. They mention it as a very great evil that they should be returned to the water.


William Ross: So it is. Dogfish can be used for fertilizing purposes if the proper system is adopted. I would suggest to the government to have a thousand cans of dog-fish canned at some of our lobster canneries in Nova Scotia, that they put them up carefully and send them as an experiment to China, Japan, India, southern Europe and whatever other countries they think might take them for food. If they found a profitable market in these places or in any other places then the fishermen w ould begin to catch dog-fish, can them and sell them as they are now selling the lobster. These are my theories. Advance the price of oil, catch the dog-fish for fertilizing purposes, can a number of them and ship them as an experiment to different markets to see if they will be used for food.


Alexander Johnston: That is being done now.


Robert Laird Borden: Do they treat them by the same process as that applied to Scotch and Norwegian cured and pickled fish ?


William Ross: Their methods of putting them up are very different. For instance, our fat herring are split up and their bellies are salted inside before the ilsh are salted. Our barrels are poorer and perhaps some of the methods of curing fish are not equal to those employed in the old country. If you get a Norwegian barrel you can knock it about just the same as you could a stone. It will hold its pickle, but if you roll one of our barrels over a rough place it will become leaky, the pickle will be spoiled and immediately the pickle is spoiled the fish are useless for tbe market. What I have to urge is this: Advance the price of oil, encourage the use of dog-fish for fertilizing purposes, have a certain quantity of dog-fish canned and let an experiment be tried in the different markets of the world. No person from the province of Ontario has the least idea of the destruction to our fishermen and the fishing industry by this plague of dog-fish, and I think I may repeat w'hat has been suggested by my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, that it wTould be a good thing if the people of Ontario would adapt themselves to the use of more of our fresh and salt fish. If they did so their ideas would be very much enlarged. They would look better and they


C995 COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
would be a different class of people altogether from what they are now.
Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I understood my hon. friend (Mr. Ross) to say that fish cured in the eastern part of Nova Scotia including Prince Edward Island


William Ross: I did not include Prince Edward Island.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Well, then the eastern part of Nova Scotia.


William Ross: Yes.
Mr. KAULBACH-were of a superior character to those cured in the western part of Nova Scotia. Does ' he include pickled fish as well as dried fish ?


William Ross: I refer particularly to dried fish. I have been in the lofts in Lunenburg, and I have handled fish there and let me say with all due respect to those industrious fishermen in that country that they do not cure their fish-it is impossible for them to do so-as well as the fish that come from Newfoundland or from the northern part of my own county are cured.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The hon. gentleman may have seen an inferior quality because I think our fishermen in the western part of Nova Scotia cure their fish fully as well as they do in the east. We have quantities of fish imported into our harbour from the east and I can see no difference at all.


William Ross: I know that if a cargo of Cape Breton codfish were to be sent to Lunenburg they would bring a higher price than fish cured in the western part of Nova Scotia. But, our people are not in the habit of sending them there.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES.: Mi'. Speaker, I want to say one or two words in regard to this very important question, important not only to the maritime provinces, but to the whole of the Dominion of Canada, and to the members of this House from every province of the Dominion. I think, from the remarks we have heard and from the information we already possess on this question, no very practical results can be obtained unless some arraugementt can be come to internationally with the people of the United States to meet this great ana growing pest and evil. If the people of the United States do not enter into a mutual fnternatio il arrangement with us. it may be necessary for us to proceed ourselves ; and that being so, we should lose no time in taking energetic measures to get rid of this pest as far as possible. If this pest continues, it goes without saying that something will have to be done. I believe that the government is fully alive to the importance of this question, and that the Department of Marine and Fisheries will lose no time in doing whatever is possible and practicable in the Mr. ROSS (Victoria).
matter. I cannot agree with some of the remarks made by the hon. member foi Vic toria (Mr. Wm. Ross), although he is an old and highly respected member of this House. I am not a lawyer, and consequently I am not prejudiced in favour of that profession, which includes so many respectable members of the community, but still I think that on any commission a lawyer, or any man who is accustomed to collect and collate evidence, is a useful addition to such a body. The members of the commission are not giving their own private opinion ; they are simply meeting the fishermen and getting their opinions ; and any man who has had experience in preparing evidence can put that evidence in proper shape and report to the government. I have one word to say to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries with regard to this commission. I understand that the members of the commission have given their services free.


William Ross: Travelling expenses, et cetera, are paid them.


James Joseph Hughes: If that commission is to go on taking evidence, I would suggest to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that one of Its members should come from the province of Prince Edward Island. The fisheries of that province are of great importance, and if the province had a representative on the commission he would be able to give very valuable assistance. In conclusion, I repeat that I believe that the department is seized with the very great importance of this question, and that no time will be lost, no time should be lost, in taking measures to exterminate this pest if at all possible.


Mr. WM. ROCHE (Halifax).: This subject came up a year ago, and in the interval the Department of Marine and Fisheries has appointed a commission to deal with the dog-fish pest and, amongst other things, to ascertain the best means of utilizing these fish when they are caught. I have had frequent conversations with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries on the subject, and he has impressed me with the great interest which he takes in it. He told me he was awaiting the report of the commission in order to arrive at a conclusion, but I would now remind the hon. gentleman that this is a case of extreme urgency. If we delay taking action, awaiting the report of that commission, and if we are to go into an elaborate investigation as to the utilization of the fish themselves when caught, very irreparable damage may be done to our fisheries. The fall mackerel will soon arrive on the coast of Nova Scotia, and the catching of fall mackerel, I need hardly say, is a very valuable industry. These fish are very capricious, and if they encounter dogfish when they arrive on the coast they may strike out from our shores, the result of which would be that this very valuable fishery would be lost to the province of

Nova Scotia. Let me make this suggestion. In old times the Nova Scotia government gave a bounty of 50 cents a hundred for dog-fish ; a large number were caught, and the ravages of these fish were materially reduced in consequence. I would suggest that, pending the report of this commission, the government should establish two stations for the purchase of dog-fish ; one westward of Halifax, somewhere between Sam-bro and Halifax, to obtain the catch on the west coast of Nova Scotia; and another east of Halifax, say in the county of Guys-borough, to obtain the catch of the east coast. Officials of the department could be sent down there to take the dog-fish caught by the fishermen, and a bounty of half a cent apiece should be paid. I mention that amount, because it was the sum offered in former times by the Nova Scotia government.


Robert Laird Borden: How long ago is it since that bounty was given in Nova Scotia ?


William Roche: I think it is more than fifty years ago.


Robert Laird Borden: Did it produce good results ?


William Roche: Yes ; it reduced the number of dog-fish on the coast very materially. There is some doubt as to whether a quarter of a cent per dog-fish would pay the fishermen an ordinary wage but fishermen and pilots with whom I have spoken tell me that a bounty of one-half cent each would induce the fishermen to get new gear and go into the business of exterminating dog-fish, partly because of the remuneration itself and partly because of the benefit which their extermination would be to our fisheries. I would like the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to take that into consideration, and while he is awaiting the report of the commission to consider the necessity of granting this bounty.
At one o'clock, House took recess.
House resumed at three o'clock.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Mr. Speaker, I quite agree with the hon. gentlemen who have preceded me that the dog-fish pest in Nova Scotia amounts to a calamity. The great fishing industry, which in all probability is the second industry in the maritime provinces, is valued at $14,000,000 or $15,000,000 yearly. I- need not add to what has already been said on that score. With regard to the dog-fish pest, the hon. member for Victoria (Hon. William Ross) and the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Mathe-son), tell me that about the year 1850, when they first engaged as young men in the fishing business, dog-fish were unknown. Other fishermen have told me that between 1840 and 1850 the whole maritime coast was beset with these voracious enemies of the fish and about this latter date they practically disappeared. About 1889 they reappeared along the coast of Nova Scotia, at first in small numbers ; but of late years they have increased to a degree that makes it necessary for us now to endeavour to do something to mitigate the pest.


Robert Laird Borden: Might I ask the hon. gentleman whether or not since' the period he names there has ever been a recurrence of them ? It might be interesting to know whether they come at regular periods or not, or whether anything can be accurately known in regard to that.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: So far as my information goes, they almost entirely disappeared shortly before 1850, and they reappeared about 1888 or 1889. I remember distinctly when they returned to the coast of Cape Breton. Old fishermen whose recollection went back sixty or seventy years told me that they had not seen them before for about forty years. Since 1889 they have been on the coast every year in gradually increasing numbers. Various proposals have been made to the government for dealing with the pest. Among others it has been suggested that so much per tail should be paid for the dog-fish captured. My own idea, based largely on what I have observed as well as on statements which I have read, is that we should very seriously if not entirely deplete the treasury before we entirely exterminated the dog-fish in their season. However, it strikes me that something immediate must be done. The pest is probably temporary. The fishermen have for a number of years shown a great tendency to leave the maritime shores and go to the United States. What can best be done to tide over the present difficulty and keep them on the, coast, ready for the period, perhaps one year off, perhaps five or ten years off, when the dog-fish shall disappear ? I think the measures suggested by Messrs. Whitman, of Canso, and Wilson, of Halifax, as read by the hon. leader of the opposition, are in the main the most promising measures that have been suggested. 1 may say that similar measures were placed before the Minister of Marine and Fisheries some months ago, and I am pleased to know that he proposes to deal with this matter in a comprehensive way. From the prices that fish guanos bring in the markets of the world, I think that if a large amount of money were placed at the disposal of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries for the establishment of reduction plants, the country would in all probability sustain no serious loss on that account. It is not unlikely that even after these reduction plants for the purpose of making guano from dogfish should no longer be called for, they would still be of use in reducing other fish offal, of which we must certainly have tens of thousands of tons on the shores of the maritime provinces.


Robert Laird Borden: For wliat purpose is the oil extracted from the livers of these fish used ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Machine oil largely, and I am informed that if subjected to the proper process it may be utilized as cod liver oil now is, for medical purposes. However, I do not speak authoritatively on that subject. While we are on this matter, I wish to bring to the attention of the House-the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has already given it his attention-the importance of providing more refrigeration for the fisheries of the maritime provinces. During the last five or six years we have made some progress. I think some twenty-eight or twenty-nine small refrigerators have been established along the coasts, and there is a demand for more. We shall require in all probability forty or fifty more. But no matter how many are put up, these are only intended to meet the requirements of the shore fishermen. They will never meet the requirements of the great fishing fleet that goes to the banks and the gulf, and I must press on the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries the necessity of making ample provision for this great fleet as soon as possible. I am quite sure that the measure will never be entirely satisfactory until we have three large refrigerators, one say in the Bay of Fundy, one about the Strait of Canso, and one in the gulf, say at the Magdalen Islands. With .these we should also require at least two small steamers of the Scotch steam trawler type, fitted up with refrigerators, to convey bait from the points where it can be obtained to the large refrigerators,' and from them to the different points where it cannot be obtained, and also to convey fresh fish caught off the coast to the Atlantic termini of the different railway systems. And here let me point out to the Minister of Railways that in my opinion, and in the opinion of many men connected with the fishing industry, it is essential that refrigerators be established at the Atlantic termini of the railways. We need not occupy our minds about refrigerators at the great markets, for there they are already provided. I wish also to point out to the House that the importance of this matter is seen in the fact that the Newfoundland government only last winter subsidized an American concern by guaranteeing five per cent interest on the bonds of the company to the extent of $500,000, under an arrangement by which the company provides bait for the Newfoundland shore fishermen and deep-sea fishermen, and purchases an enormous quantity of fish from the N wfoundland fishermen and transports it to the American market. I mention this to show that if we are to keep in the race we must take vigorous steps to place a first-class system of refrigeration in the hands of the fishermen of the maritime provinces. The magnitude of the industry will Mr. KENDALL.
amply justify any such expenditure. However, I know that I do not have to press this necessity upon the attention of the present hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries with the slightest degree of apprehension as to the result; because I am sure that every one in this House is thoroughly conversant with the fact that the hon. minister, since he took charge of the Department	of Marine and	Fisheries,	has
never turned down any measure of great importance that has been suggested to him. It is not long since he instituted in the St. Lawrence river a number of Marconi stations and established from the great lakes to the mouth of the St. Lawrence a chain of acetylene gas lights. And it is only a few weeks ago that he made arrangements to have a system of electric bells throughout the River St. Lawrence -a system which has proved very effective along the American coast. I have no doubt that he will also make provision for the extension of a like system to the maritime provinces and make ample provision to deal with the conditions that now threaten our fisheries. Of course there is always a great temptation to adopt proposals more or less popular in certain localities, but that is scarcely the way to deal with a question so important as this. For my part I have every confidence that the hon. minister is taking all necessary measures and dealing with this matter as its importance requires.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The shore and deep-sea fisheries of the maritime provinces is an important factor in the welfare and success of that portion of the Dominion, and representing as I do the largest fishing constituency in the Dominion is a sufficient apology for speaking on this subject at the present time. The great magnitude and increased importance of this industry, if cared for properly, is such that it demands and should receive the best consideration of the government, and as well the recognition and support of the representatives of both political parties in this House. It is a well known fact that the past few years the dog-fish have taken all but complete possession of our north Atlantic waters, and in the summer season the almost exclusive control. They have appeared the past few years in such myriads that other fish are driven from our shores, and are becoming so destructive to fishing property, such as lines, seines and nets, that fishermen fear to put their seines in the water, when the dog-fish infest these waters, lest they would lose them completely. Even when trawling in deep water they are found to eat the fish off the trawls leaving nothing in many instances but the head. The dog-fish is a menace to every description of fish, and what they can't destroy they drive away, hence during the season when the run of dog-fish exists all eatable fish are driven from our shores, the bait fish as well, hence the great scarcity of bait at this season.

The cod-fishing industry is the most valuable adjunct to the wealth of our maritime provinces, and should be protected in the best possible manner not only by a system of propagation, but by a careful consideration as to how all edible fish can be maintained and become a valuable commodity for export. Our forest wealth to a great extent is becoming exhausted or much curtailed. Our mines have their limit, although the limit may be far removed, but our fisheries may be preserved and made marvellously productive, and as lasting as the hills for all time to come. But we must seek a remedy to see this pest dog-fish removed. I know of no industry except farming, and its kindred branches in which this permanency can be claimed. If all other industries diminish, the sea will continue to yield her increase uudiminished, if methods are employed to remove the dog-fish pest and we adopt the system to keep up the supply of edible fish.
I have advocated in this House bureaus of fishing for the advancement of the fisheries, from which valuable information can be gathered, equally as great as the benefits that are at present derived from bureaus of agriculture, and I cannot understand why a measure of this sort is not encouraged and adapted with a view to the improvement and greater development of our fisheries.
We have been suffering now for a number of years from what is known as the dogfish pest. These fislh are not indigenous to our waters, but come from the south and I agree with those who spoke previously that it may well be treated as one of international interest. In my opinion we should consult with the United States government and ascertain what suggestions they have to offer. As I understand, they have also taken the matter up and have suggested that a certain amount be paid t0 their fishermen for the capture of these fish. But that this proposition could be carried out satisfactorily, I have grave doubts. At the same time we can move independently of them to a certain extent. It would be better, however, if we could have their cooperation, especially as they are as much if not more interested in getting rid of this pest than we are. This pest is looked upon by our fishermen as most formidable-one that must be taken in hand and mastered as soon as possible. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries, whom I have interviewed on several occasions, seems desirous of doing what he can and willing to receive any suggestion that may be offered him to get rid of the evil. Whatever is done should be done promptly and we should insist on prompt action. Our forests are diminishing steadily owing to the demands of commerce and the anxiety of our lumbermen to realize on their limits as rapidly as possible. Our mines though considerable, will no doubt some day, happily far removed, become exhausted, but our fishing industry is one that will last for all time. But we require to employ every means to foster it and protect it as much as possible. The removal of this pest (the dog-fish) is one of those means. What we require is to ascertain what remedy would be effective. The giving of a bounty has been suggested. I have inlready suggested that a bounty of $5 per ton should be given instead of by actual count. The removal of the tail of the log-fish and then letting it go would not kill the fish in my opinion. As I am informed by the fishermen, the fish would still continue to live, and if they should die in consequence of the removal of their tails, they would pollute the waters and the remedy would be worse than the disease. The reason why I suggested weight instead of number in giving the bounty is because when a fisherman comes in with a large quantity of fish, these fish are very difficult to handle because their fins and tails are like files and injure very quickly all those who handle them. But if the bounty were paid by measure, then the fishermen would get all they are entitled to and quick despatch. With regard to the suggestion thro-wn out by a previous speaker, that we should utilize the dog-fish as a fertilizer and have one fertilizing establishment that would not be practicable. Why ? Because it would not be possible for those who catch the dog-fish to bring them to the factory to be converted into a fertilizer when far removed, but you would require to place factories at the points where the fishing is carried on to the greatest extent. Canso is an important point, but there are other points which would require those factories equally as much as Canso. In giving a bounty to the fishermen we are not only encouraging the fish industry, but we are benefiting that industry by the removal of this pest and in the course of time might be able to get rid of it entirely just as lobsters are less in number than ever before is due to the overcatch, and to the increase in price and the demand.
I therefore feel that the bounty, if given, should be paid by weight, at such a rate as the government could afford to give. I would also suggest that a bounty be given for the oil. The oil is an article of commerce that can be utilized for mechanical purposes and in other ways. I am informed by farmers that as a fertilizer the oil would not be as good as the body of the fish itself. Thus, according to my recommendation, the fishermen would have a bounty for the quantity of dog-fish caught, and also for the oil that would be obtained from the dogfish. I would also suggest the establishment of fertilizing establishments at different points along the coast so that they might receive a bounty as well. By thus providing for the manufacture of fertilizers the farmer as well as the fishermen would receive that benefit to which lie is

entitled from the bounty for the capture of dog-fish. At present we are compelled to send to the United States and purchase fertilizers. Some fertilizers are manufactured in Canada, but many persons haying practical knowledge of the value of the fertilizers say that the fertilizers which they obtain from the United States, irrespective of the duty are better than those manufactured in Canada. Personally I have grave doubt with regard to that assertion ; I think that cannot possibly be correct, but the analysts would be able to ascertain the comparative values of these fertilizers by the tests to which each class could be subjected. The dog-fish could thus be utilized in such a way as to benefit both classes of the community and I am free to state here that the dog-fish Qould be used as a feed as well. I know from past experience that dog-fish, prepared and dried as it can be with very little labour, can be employed as a feed for cattle-not for cows that are being milked, nor for cattle that are being fattened for beef, but for young cattle, young swine, and horses. If the fish can be prepared in that way I would suggest to the Minister of Fisheries that he also give a bounty of so much per ton for all fish so prepared in that way as an a-rticle of feed. We thus have three advantages from capture of these fish, the bounty for the oil, the bounty for the dog-fish as a fertilizer and the bounty for the manufacture of these fish into a good product. If this idea is favourably received by the Minister of Fisheries then I would say let him act upon it promptly so that the fishermen will' be able to obtain immediate benefit. If the matter is left over for consideration they would not receive that immediate benefit. I am in receipt of numberless letters from parties who arc-interested in the fisheries, who urge very strongly that some action be taken by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. These people will await the disposal of this subject with a great deal of interest.
I referred some days ago to the subject of the preservation of fish in cold storage. I would not now have brought this matter before the House but as our friend from Sydney (Mr. Kendall) referred to cold storage for fish and also to cold storage for bait purposes in Newfoundland for sea fishing, I may say that I feel tliat something should be done in this matter. There is no reason why we cannot have a more satisfactory service than is obtained under the process at present used at North Sydney. I referred when speaking previously on this subject to a system that is employed by Mr. Eaton, the patentor who has informed me that not only in theory but in practice his system has been found to give satisfactory results. Throughout the United States immense amounts of money have been employed in the industry of cold storage, and Mr. Eaton is now having one plant put up Mr. KAULBACH.
at Montreal, another he is arranging for at Toronto and another is about to be set up here in Ottawa. In order that the House may have a clear idea of the advantages of this system, I shall read to the House the prospectus of the Eaton Company :


Mr. WRIGHT.: Are these plants being put up in Ottawa and Montreal by the government or by private individuals ?


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Private individuals, capital subscribed. The prospectus is as follows :


THE EATON ICE PROCESS.
[Stage Direction]
Ice of absolutely pure quality and free from bacteria, can be made in large quantities by the Eaton process for 10 cents per ton laid down in the icehouse.
Present cost of production.
Ice of much inferior quality, such as is obtained from the St. Lawrence or Back river, costs 75 cents per ton laid down, and is sold by the trade to large customers at $2 to $3 per ton, delivered at their place of business.
Comparative qualities.
While all river or lake ice, even the very finest, contains great numbers of germs and impurities dangerous to the health, Eaton ice is absolutely free from both, being made from water which has undergone careful scientific Alteration. Nor does it contain air-bubbles, which in the ordinary article cause a loss of 40 per cent by melting, Eaton ice is hard as flint, so hard that it has a metallic rirg, and it can neither rot nor become honeycombed. The absence of imbedded air prevents it from melting and from creating any moisture, it can only evaporate from the outside. Thus while dealers now are compelled to lay in a stock of 8,000 tons of ordinary ice for every 5,000 which they deliver during the season in order to effect a clear loss of 3,000 tons by melting, no loss of any consequence would occur with the Eaton ice, the loss by evaporation being merely nominal.
Absolute certainty of supply.
Ice famines are of no infrequent occurrence, owing to mild winters which do not permit the formation of cakes sufficiently thick to survive the storage period. The thinner the cakes of ice which are collected from the river, the greater will be the subsequent loss from melting in the icehouse during the summer.
The Eaton process obviates this danger in its entirety, while cold weather enables the process to be worked to the best advantage, there is no necessity for greater cold than that of the ordinary freezing weather which prevails in Canada for several months in the year. At a temperature 25, or 26 F or 30 or 40 C., one half inch of ice can be made per hour or 12 inches in 24 hours. With lower temperatures, it is made correspondingly faster. The horizontal dimensions of the ice cake are of course, limited only by the space available for the ice-bed and by the amount of the water supply. This would seem to prove that Canada is the country par excellence for working the Eaton process.

Comparative cost of production
Good river By Eaton ice	process.
Sawing, per ton	 $0 14	None.
Carting	 0 50		
Packing	 0 06		
Melting	 0 25		
Cost of manufacture of Eaton ice in an 8,000 ton house. Two hundred gallons of water from city mains, at 20 cents per thousand gallons, making 4 cents for water used to make one ton of ice
Cost of water for 8,000 tons of ice.. ..$320 00 Labour, 6 men 30 days, at $1 50	 270 00
[Stage Direction]
Actual cost of making ice in 8,000 ton house is therefor 71 cents. To this must be added the interest charges on outlay for ground and plant. Larger plants will work cheaper still, because a considerable saving can be made in the cost of building and wages.
Plant and machinery.-The Eaton process works entirely without chemicals or machinery. Nature alone does the work of freezing. An expensive plant, therefore, is unnecessary; only, houses to store the ice, with a water power attached to each for the treatment of the water, all built of 'the plainest materials. A 20.000 tons plant can be put up in this city lor about $10,000, and larger plants propor-tionably cheaper
Size of Canadian market.-According to carefully collected statistics, there are consumed annually in the city of Montreal, at least 500,000 tons of ice, and in Toronto double that quantity, while the joint consumption of the lesser cities may be put down at another '$500,000 tons, or at least 2,000,000 tons per annum, in Ontario, Quebec and the lower provinces. This is believed to be a very conservative estimate. Besides this local consumption, there is an unlimited Held for export . for if the city of Portland, Maine, can export 5,000,000 tons of ordinary >ice per season. ice which has to be brought 160 miles by rail, leaving 50 per cent of its substance in transit, there is manifestly no reason why St. Jrhi. and Halifax could not build up a large business by shipping Eaton ice made at the wharfs and losing only a paltry percentage by evaporation. Ordinary good ice sold during the hot season, commands as much as $20 per ton at New Orleans, and $12 to $15 per ton at St. Louis ; France and England, too, are ready to pay high prices for good ice.
Canadian company to work the Eaton process [DOT]-Mr. Eaton is the sole owner of the patents covering his process of making ice and handling water in Canada He has conveyed to the Union Ice Co., Canada, the sole right to use his process in the province of Ontar'o, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island for the full term of the life of the patents. He has undertaken also to give to this company the free uses of any further improvements which he may make in his process, for the above territory.
The capital of the Union Ice Company is $500,000 in 100,000 shares of the par value of $5 each, fully paid and non-assessable. If a suitable property can be acquired, and a
20,000 ton plant erected, which can he done easily In three or four weeks, so as to be ready for the first cold weather in January, the house ought to be filled with ice before January 1st. 'When this has been done, the local ice trade can be given an opportunity to examine into the quality of the ice, the working of the process, the cost of production, and their own chances of competing with a system which works far cheaper and more certainly than the river. There being no desire to interfere with their trade, they can be offered all the ice they want at a figure considerably below what they are. paying now ; the stock necessary to fill their contracts can he carried for them in the company's houses until delivery time, and thus they will be saved the large outlay in cash for sawing, carting and packing, which they now must lace every winter. If they decide to act thus as distributors of ice only, they will be able to get along without their icehouses and may realize upon their real estate' and buildings. These inducements are thought to be so palpably plain that the trade will become at once the company's customers and all enmity and ill-feeling will be avoided.
I must apologize. Mr. Speaker, for occupying the time of the House in reading this lengthy description of the system of ice production. I may say also that Mr. Eaton has described to me the virtue of the ice that is thus made. He says that the water goes through an electric process which deprives it of all the germs that water would naturally possess. The ice thus formed is therefore clear of all impurities of every description, and retains its congealed quality much longer that if it had not undergone this electric process. He further says in his prospectus that it removes all air globules from t'he ice. which in ordinary ice have a tendency to destroy the fish or meat when it is brought in contact with them. He further says, as I have remarked on a previous occasion in speaking on this subject. that the ice made by this process retains all the phosphoric properties contained in the fish or meat ; whereas by the ordinary process of packing these articles in ice, those properties disappear much sooner. He also states that fish when deprived of its phosphoric properties is worthless, even as bait, and the fish will not take it. He goes on further to say that when ordinary bait is removed from the icehouse and taken on board a fishing craft, the bait will last but a very short time, whereas by his process it will last considerable longer. He also told me that he would think nothing of wrapping a pound of ice in a piece of thick paper, putting it into his satchel and travelling to Boston and back, and the ice would he in almost as perfect a condition as when he started. If that is the case it certainly offers many advantages over any other method of manufacturing ice that I have yet heard of. I have occupied a considerable time in givin expression to my views in regard to the question of dog-fish and
[Stage Direction]


the remedy to be applied for the purpose of securing the removal of this pest with which tlie fishing industry of the maritime provinces has to contend. I sincerely hope the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries will seriously take the matter into his consideration and act in a prompt manner in order that the fishermen of the maritime provinces may have the encouragement which they anticipate they will receive from the bounty which I suggest. I do not suggest a bounty of a merely nominal sum to the industry but a bounty sufficient to induce the fishermen to work actively to accomplish the end which is desirable, that is the removal of the dogfish from our coast. It need not be a permanent thing. It need only be given a trial. If it is found that it does not work satisfactorily a change can be made and the hon. jninister can adopt other methods.
William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Speaker, while the interest in this subject may be limited to a number of members in this House, I think its importance to the maritime provinces fully justifies the time and attention that have been given to it to-day. As the representative of a fishing constituency and as a minister from the maritime provinces, I naturally have the warmest interest in the subject.^ I have had much correspondence concerning it with people in the fishing business, including some of the gentlemen whose names have been mentioned in the discussion to-day and whose large experience entitles their opinions to the utmost consideration. I have repeatedly been in communication with my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine) on the subject, who at all times has manifested the warmest interest in the matter and the strongest desire to bring about some satisfactory solution. As he has indicated in the answers which he has given to questions which have been asked during the session, difficulties have been met with owing to the wide differences of opinion as to what is the best mode of dealing with the evil. That the evil exists, and that it is a great one, is fully realized, but the proper method of dealing wtth the matter is a question which necessarily requires time for consideration. 1 can only say that my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has repeatedly' assured me that it is his desire to co-operate with the maritime representatives in the matter, and when I came recently to prepare the supplementary estimates for the current year, which are not yet before the House, the hon. minister asked me to include a considerable sum to enable him to carry on some experiments along the line of what has been the general expression of opinion this afternoon ; that is, the establishment of reduction works for the treatment of dog-fish, both as to the preparation of the dog-fish as *a food product and as to the production of Mr. KAULBACH.
oil and fertilizers. I can assure my bon. friends opposite, who have spoken on the subject, that my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is entirely in sympathy with all that has been said, and has given the most substantial evidence of that fact by asking me to give him the necessary appropriation to carry out these proposed experiments.


Aaron Abel Wright: Mr. Speaker, L would like to ask the hon. Minister of Fin ance if any attempt has been made to establish a cold storage service once a week between the maritime provinces and the province of Ontario. I allude now to the transportation of such fish as kippered herring and finnan haddies. I do not allude to those kinds that are in tin cans, but I refer to the kinds that are packed in boxes. We begin to receive them from the maritime provinces, St. John particularly, in November. They begin then to send them to us by express. The express companies have given us a very low rate on fish, but the difficulty is that we cannot get them at every season of the year. If the Lenten season is very late in the spring, we want a supply of fish, and to get this supply we must have a cold storage service from the maritime provinces to Ontario. If a car came up once a week, leaving St. John or some other maritime port every Wednesday or Thursday so that we could have the fish here by Friday, and we knew that a car was coming every week, it would be a great advantage to us. We are anxious to receive this fish in Ontario. We cannot get them unless we get them from the maritime provinces, and why can we not have fish the same as the people in the maritime provinces have ?


William Stevens Fielding: Something has been done along the lines suggested by my hon. friend, but there is ample room for expansion , as he has suggested. The Intercolonial Railway, and I think the Canadian Pacific Railway, are providing some facilities for bringing fish in cold storage, but I believe that tlie opportunities for an expansion of this business in the upper provinces are very great indeed, and I am delighted to hear my hon. friend say that the people of Ontario are looking forward to obtaining supplies in that way. Something has been done, but there is ample room for improvement on the part of both of the railways.


Robert Laird Borden: I am told that an express car is run from Vancouver to Boston, attached to the Imperial Limited, which carries an enormous mass of halibut every day in the week, and surely if this can be carried all the way from British Columbia to Boston and sold at remunerative prices, the fish of the maritime provinces could be taken to Ontario, Quebec and even farther west.


Mr. F. B. WADE.: Mr. Speaker, I think the discussion which has taken place to-day

must be productive of great good, because there seems to be but one opinion on both sides of the House, and that is that everything possible should be done for the benefit of this great industry- The fishing industry of the Dominion of Canada is worth about 823,000,000 annually. The fishing industry of the province of Nova Scotia is worth some $8,000,000 annually, and an industry of those proportions in a province of the size of Nova Scotia is one of very great importance indeed. I am sure that we are all anxious that it shall be fostered in every conceivable way, and I am glad to say that in all the communications I have had with the present Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. PrSfontaine) and his officials, they have always manifested the greatest interest in this industry and the desire and determination to do all they can to benefit it. In regard to the fishing industry as a whole, one of the great questions in connection with it is the transportation question. There is no doubt about that. If you have fish ir the maritime provinces and you have consumers in Ontario, you must have means of transportation in order to get the fish from one place to the other. Unfortunately in Nova Scotia large sections of the fishing country have been deprived of transportation facilities, particularly from Halifax to Barrington and Yarmouth, and from Halifax east to the Strait of Canso. But it will only be a short time until we have a railway in operation along the southwest coast of Nova Scotia, and I trust that in the near future we will have a railway to the east from Halifax to the Strait of Canso. Then, with refrigerator cars, it will be possible to send large quantities of fresh fish to the markets of the west.
In regard to the methods that are being pursued at the present time, although the methods have been improved very considerably, I think it will be necessary in the near future for the fishermen of the maritime provinces to make very radical changes in the methods they have been pursuing because of the change in the market. They have to turn to the home markets more than in the past, because the West India markets, for reasons which I need not now stop to mention, are being lessened. 1 Already this work has been begun, and firms are being established to prepare fish in the most attractive forms, and they are shipping as far west as Winnipeg and Regina. I agree that while the fisheries in Nova Scotia are worth $8,000,000 annually there is no reason why, with certain improvements, these fisheries could not be made to be worth at least $15,000,000 per annum in a very short time. That is a very great consideration. To illustrate that, I may say I know of a locality in my own county which is bordering on the Bay of Fundy. A few years ago I suppose the whole output from this one settlement was not more than- $500 or $000 a year. But a pier has been erected at this place, which enables the fishermen to carry 2231
on their industry during the winter, which is the time for the haddock fishery, and as a result the output from that place is something like $20,000 a year.
The government is every year providing facilities to enable the fishermen to more profitably prosecute their calling. The result in the place I have mentioned is that we have received back in return more than $20,000 per year, and wherever that can be done the industry will be stimulated. I am glad that parliament is so alive to the great disadvantages our fishermen are labouring under because of the presence of these dog-fish. For some two or three years I have had my attention called to this matter very closely ; I have had communications with fishermen and with fish dealers, and with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the officers of his department. Everybody recognizes the evil, but the great question has been how it can be remedied. The government has been ready to do everything it can do, but the question remains what shall be done ? There has been a difference of opinion, and that is natural because people cannot very well decide how it is possible to provide a remedy. Many intelligent people tell me it is idle to think of exterminating the dog-fish ; others think they can be exterminated. There is a great deal of capital invested in the shore fisheries and a great many men are dependent on these fisheries for their livelihood. During the season this dog-fish scourge is on, these men are absolutely unable to earn a dollar. They go out in their boats and attempt to fish, but the lines are seized by the dog-fish and cut and the hook carried away, so that it is impossible for the fishermen to pursue their calling. If some means were adopted by which the fishermen during this season could catch dog-fish and make a small wage, even if it were only a dollar a day, it would save them from actual want which often results now. I have had extensive correspondence about this matter with people who are in a position to know, and I think the consensus of opinion among the best informed people is, that the government should do something in the way of aiding the erection of reduction works in eeftain localities along the coast. It would not be necessary for these reduction works to be so very close together, because the fish could be gathered up and delivered to them. The reason I think it would be necessary for the government to assist in this enterprise, is because of the uncertainty of a continuance of this dog-fish evil. They have been here before and have suddenly disappeared and that may happen again at any time let us hope it will happen soon-but that uncertainty is sufficient to deter private capital from engaging in the establishment of reduction works. I therefore think that if the government would assist a private company in the erection of their plant,

requiring them in return to take all the 'dog-fish offered at a stipulated price, the most good could be accomplished. Then, whether the dog-fish were present or not, the fishermen would be enabled to earn a livelihood. I am satisfied that these reduction works could be made substantially self sustaining, but even suppose there was a considerable loss, the government is assisting other industries and it is but right that our great fishing industry should be assisted also. It is a matter for congratulation that there is on this question such a unanimity of opinion in this House ; and that we are all actuated by the one desire to support the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in an earnest endeavour to exterminate this plague and to give courage to our fishermen who'have been so tortured by it in the past.


Mr. O. TURGEON.: I would not venture to occupy the time of the House were it not that my constituents are deeply interested in this question. I can heartily endorse the remarks of the leader of the opposition, and also the remarks made by hon. gentlemen on this side of the House in reference to the importance of our fisheries and the necessity of their preservation. I have the honour to represent a fishing constituency which represents one-third of the fishing industry of the province of New Brunswick; the total value of the fisheries of that province being about $4,000,000 of which $1,500,000 comes from the county of Gloucester. The fishermen of my county have suffered as well as the fishermen of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island from this dog-fish pest which has been engaging the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and his department for the last year or two. In the waters frequented by the fishermen of my county on the Prince Edward Island banks as well as along the aorth shore of New Brunswick, these dog-fish have been in existence for over forty years, but until recently in such small numbers that the attention of the fishermen was not particularly attracted to them. Last year, after the first of August the fishing industry carried on in Gloucester county by over 220 fishing vessels virtually ceased, and evidence was given before the commission to show that the resultant loss amounted to over $50,000. The fishermen of my county have urged upon me the necessity of asking that the government shall come to their assistance. Last winter the Minister of Marine and Fisheries was kind enough to appoint what I might call a local commission, consisting of Professor Prince, and Mr. Pierre Morais, of Caraquet, to take the evidence of the fishermen in that district. When we realize that the products of the fisheries amount to $15,000,000 in the maritime provinces, and to $23,000,000 in the whole Dominion, it is easy to see what a great necessity there is for preserving this in-Mr. WADE.
dustry. I believe that with an earnest effort to develop our Canadian fishing industry it could be made to double in value within the course of a few years, so that New Brunswick would produce $8,000,000 or $10,000,000 ; Nova Scotia, $25,000,000 or $30,000,000, and the whole Dominion of Canada, $50,000,000, instead of $23,000,000 as at present. I am glad to say that the government is showing an interest in this matter and that their desire is to encourage the fishermen of the maritime provinces. For a number of years past we have had larger and more numerous appropriations for the construction of breakwaters and lighthouses, all calculated to facilitate the fishermen in the pursuit of their calling so that they may now get in and out of the harbour at night time as well ns in the day. at low tide as at high tide. Instead of having to leave the banks on Friday night or early Saturday morning as was the case a few years ago. in order to get home for Sunday, the fishing fleet can now engage in fishing for a part of the day on Saturday, knowing that in view of the advantages that have been conferred upon them by the government, they can come into the harbour at night, and thus they have more time to prosecute their operations.
The Minister of Marine and Fisheries has certainly shown great interest in dealing with this calamity by appointing commissioners on the subject. While these commissioners have not yet reported, a number of suggestions have been made of more or less practicability. Some of them may be practicable along certain portions of the coasts of the maritime provinces while not practicable along other portions. Some suggestions have been made in this House and outside of this House, which may be practicable along the coast of Cape Breton, but not practicable for the fishing fleet of the county of Gloucester, which is isolated from the other fishing fleets of the maritime provinces. Every means which can be devised to diminish the dog-fish calamity Should be taken as far as practicable. Among the suggestions which have been made is the establishment of fertilizers. I believe in the establishment of these fertilizers along our coasts, and I am surprised that the people of Canada have not sooner realized their necessity. At the same time, if we wait until these fertilizers are ready to do the good work they are likely to do, perhaps our fishermen will have lost patience and will have abandoned the fishing industry entirely. The men engaged in the fishing industry are laborious and active, and, as the hon. leader of the opposition said this morning, their valour and intelligence can be appreciated as well as the valour and intelligence of any other class of the Canadian people. They are willing to grapple with any difficulty and
roi3

aelp themselves out of the difficulty. It has iJso been suggested that a bounty should be said to the fishermen, varying in amount. *Such a bounty seems at first sight to be extravagant, and likely to bring Canada into i very large expenditure. It cannot be so, is our fishermen would only devote to dog-ish time that could not be otherwise utilized ,vhen at sea, on the fishing banks. Our deep-sea fishermen have no ambition to become ishers of dog-fish for the rest of their lives. 1'hey are anxious that the dog-fish pest shall 33 exterminated without their assistance, if oossible. It has been suggested also that the government cruisers employed in projecting the coasts of the maritime provinces should be equipped in order that they may eapture dog-fish in large quantities. They might be equipped with large -seines of strong cord, similar to those which the Americans used in depleting our waters of mackerel and other fish at the time of the Washington treaty. If those men were able with their destructive engines, to destroy such fish as mackerel, we ought to be able ;o -find means for destroying the_ dog-fish, which is threatening to destroy our shore fisheries. I would suggest co-operation between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the fishermen of the county of Kloucester and of the maritime -provinces it large. I am sure the Minister of Marne and Fisheries has at his command men of ability, energy and tact, who would be willing to give their services and their best ibility to the large interests of the country, nen like Commander Spain and Commander Wakeham, placed at the head of such a fleet, would, I am sure, in the course of a few weeks show, to the advantage of Canada and the advantage of the fishing interests of the maritime provinces, that their efforts would be worth the small expenditure they would cost. I understood that the sum of .$25,000 lias been placed at the command of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries for this emergency. The hon. minister has already assured us that he is ready to combat any imergency, and I believe he is as willing and ready to combat this emergency of the dog-fish calamity, in the interest of the fisheries of the maritime provinces, as he has been to equip the gulf and river St. Lawrence -for navigation. For the destruction of the dog-fish pest prompt and vigorous action is required. Our fishermen cannot afford to wait for three or four years, for in tha-t time, in their ambition, they will certainly leave the country and look for better employment ; and once they leave they will not come back to that industry. We are exerting ourselves to promote the interests of our fishermen. The people of Montreal, Toronto and the west are asking for the fish of the maritime provinces. Let us show our fishermen that they, will be encouraged as well as the men of any other industry. 1 believe that a large amount should be placed at the disposal of the
Minister of Marine and Fisheries. If he does not find the necessity of expending it, he need not expend it ; but it should be there for the occasion. I believe that practical suggestions will be found only as the department engages in the work and looks l'or practical suggestions-it is only when you are at work that the best suggestions come to you ; and I believe the suggestions will receive consideration, not only from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, but from his hon. colleagues in the Council and from every member of this House.


Mr. ANGUS MCLENNAN.: Mr. Speaker, just one word with regard to this very important subject. No member of this House need apologize for calling attention to the importance of an industry which amounts to something like $22,000,000 or $23,000,000 annually to -the Dominion of Canada, Representing, as I do, a very important constituency, containing as it does a seacoast ot about 150 miles, containing also a very important salmon-fishing river, I do not feel that I should apologize for a moment for making a few observations in reference to this matter. With regard to this last commission that has been appointed, I cannot agree with my hon. friend from Victoria (Hon. Wm. Ross) in objecting to the personnel of that commission. I think the personnel of the commission is all right, but it is important to take into account the local conditions in various parts of the country. When our fishing industry is scattered along 5,000 miles of coast, it is obvious that a commission picked from one locality would not be calculated to understand local conditions so readily as a commission picked from the various localities along the coast.
I find, on looking over the personnel of the commission then, that it is composed of gentlemen representing the Bay of Fundy constituencies and the Department of Marine and Fisheries. And if there is to be any change made in its personnel, my oniy suggestion would be that it should be * composed of gentlemen taken from the various parts of the coast, leaving the selection to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries and his colleagues. I must say in passing that I can only add my mede of praise to the conduct of the hon. minister in connection with the duties pertaining to his office. I would call attention particularly to one feature in his administration and that is that he is always ready Ho get rid of ' red tape ' and deal with a measure upon its merits. That certainly has been my experience, and that certainly is a feature of the hon. gentleman's administration well worthy of commendation. As this dogfish pest has assumed such serious proportions as to become a menace to a most valuable industry, there is no need for me to say anything regarding the urgency of our doing something to extirpate it. What re-

quires to be done is for each gentleman from the maritime provinces to offer suggestions as to the means he considers best to get rid of the pest. It has been suggested that a reduction factory should be established for the purpose of enabling this fish to be utilized as a fertilizer, and according to the estimate of the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) that would cost something like $20,000 for the plant and $20,000 to run it. I am told that this is a very moderate estimate, and I observe in this connection that while the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Wm. Roche) agrees to this proposition, he couples his endorsation of it with the suggestion that the experiment should be tried on the Halifax coast. He leaves out of consideration the fact that we have a coast of something like 5,000 miles to deal with and that the dog-fish are not disposed to remain on the coast of Halifax any longer than anywhere else along our shores. It may then be urged that if the visits of these fish are of so transitory a character, why make so much ado about them. Well, one week of the dog-fish around our coast" means perhaps two months destruction of our fisheries. Not only do these destroy the fishing lines, but also all the fishing nets and what is more it is well known by fishermen that the presence of this pest on the coast for one week will scare away all species of other fish for weeks at a time. Therefore do I say that the presence of this pest on our coast for one week might lead to the destruction of our fish for two months possibly.


Mr.  R. L@: BORDEN. But they do stay much longer.


Angus McLennan: Yes, unfortunately they do, but I am merely supposing a case. An<T I say that the transitory character of their visits would certainly tell very much against the establishment of a permanent institution such as a reduction plant. For the past thirty years I have lived among the fishermen and frequently have talked this subject over with them and the conclusion I have come to is that the best way to meet the evil would be to grant such inducements to destroy the fish-would be to give a bonus for every gallon of dog-fish oil sent to market or reduced or so much per head for every fish caught. That would be much more effective than a reduction plant, inasmuch as tt would cover our whole coast. It might be said that an army of officials would be required to check the counting of these fish, which would certainly be an objection, but at the same time I am sure that the money -we would spend in a month or so in this way would be much more than compensated for by the additional value given to our fisheries. I would therefore urge upon the minister and his colleagues the advisability of experimenting along this line and to pay a bounty Mr. Mclennan.
either of so much per fish caught or so much a gallon for every gallon of oil. TWo most important classes would in this way be benefited, because after the oil would be taken from the fish the residue would make a capital compost to be used on farm lands, and I venture to say that this compost would find a ready market, so that the only expense to which the government would be subjected would be the expense of furnishing the needed incentive in the shape of a bounty for every gallon of oil rendered or every fish caught. There is just one point to which I wish to call attention, and that is -with regard to the lobster fishing industry, and I refer to this because the commission has not yet finished its work. I .would call attention to it in particular to the operations along our coast. No doubt the investigations of the previous commission have been productive of the very greatest good, but there are certainly some defects in the conclusions at which they arrived. One of these defects is the great inequalities in the length of the season in different districts. I would therefore suggest that the commission pay particular attention to the equalizing of the lobster fishing season around the Island of Cape Breton. There is nearly a month's difference in the time within which fishermen can prosecute that industry in different parts of the coast around that island. I am sure the House will agree that a difference of three weeks in the open season in one locality is quite unrea sonable.
With regard to the proposition to establish factories for the manufacture of oil and other valuable products from the dogfish. I would again say that this- would be a very costly way of disposing of the fish, although it might be profitable in some localities. The great obstacle would be the difficulty of applying such a system along 5,000 miles of coast. From the southern side of the Bay of Fundy to Labrador there is a fishing coast of that length and to establish these factories would involve an immense expense. What is more, the fish is of a migratory character and when a factory had been built at great expense perhaps in three weeks after its completion this pest would migrate to another shore. I would therefore press upon the government the choice of giving a bounty per head for every dog-fish taken or else of so much a gallon for every gallon of oil extracted. In this way the whole coast would be covered much better than by experimenting in any one locality.


Robert Laird Borden: Does my hon. friend think the fish could be used for food to any extent ?


Angus McLennan: I have never heard of it being used for food among our people.
(Mr. WADE. I believe that some have been canned.
.TTTT.Y 19. 1904
Mr. McLennan. Not that I have heard of. The oil is quite valuable, and as a fertilizer they are excellent. The farmers along out coast woukj lose no time I am sure in adopting them as a fertilizer and paying the fishermen for them. I make these observations on behalf of the fishermen along the 150 miles of coast in the county which I have the honour to represent. What holds true of that coast, no doubt holds true of several other constituencies in the province from which I come.


Mr. JABEL ROBINSON.: Might I ask the hon. gentleman if the dog-fish has ever been analysed so that we might be able to tell whether it is fit for food or only for manure ? Before we undertake to discuss the dog-fish, we should know its component parts, and what it is fit for. It has been discussed ever since we started this morning at 11 o'clock, but I have yet to learn what it is good for. It seems to be a great evil to the fishermen, and we should know what it is worth.


Angus McLennan: Dog-fish have been analysed and are found good as food. I think 90 per cent of the fish is good for food, and the bi-products form excellent fertilizers.


Mr. S. E. GOLFRLEY.: I was glad to bear the hon. member for West Elgin ask this [DOT]question, because I apprehend that this question should be discussed by the people of Ontario more than by the people of the maritime provinces. This is one of the vital questions of Canada. The fishery Interests of the maritime provinces are the mqst vital in Canada. They are infinitely superior to the wheat interests, the mineral interests or the agricultural interests of Canada. This matter should be taken up in the most liberal spirit so that the government if necessary may spend not only $100,000, but $1,000,000 to exterminate this pest. This is a new menace to the fishing interests in the maritime provinces. What we want is a commission that will summon to its aid the most scientific knowledge in the country to determine where these dogfish grow and then to ascertain the best and most effective means to secure their extermination, because exterminated they must be, otherwise they will destroy the fishing industries in Canada. They are the most important industries in the wolrld. Down by the seas you have a maritime and a commercial people. Without a maritime and commercial population this country would be inland, and inland countries have ever been failures. You must have a mercantile country. The men who control the sea, who go abroad, are the ones who determine the character of a country. You train these men in the fisherise of the maritime provinces, and if you want a navy


An hon. MEMBER.: Oh, oh. .


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I am surprised at the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Maepherson). Is he so narrow as to be absolutely unaware of the enormous proportions of the fishing industries of the maritime provinces ? The other matter is the commercial interest of this country, in which British Columbia ought to have some concern. I am surprised that hon. gentlemen should take so-little interest in this matter. I suppose if it had been a question that offered some-personal advantage to some one, they would have been on their feet. But apparently no subject that does not offer some personal reward to seme members of this House-appeals to their hearts or their statesmanship. I want the hon. gentleman to know that the fish industries of the maritime .provinces are among the most important industries in this country. The only things I regretted in the remarks of the hon. member for West Elgin (Mr. Robinson)-who is generally liberal to a fault and sometimes conservative to a fault-was his remark that this discussion commenced at 11 o'clock and it was time to finish it. Why,, Sir, in the interests of Canada it should be continued for two months, if it were necessary. If it were some little vote of $2,000" for a wharf, then I suppose he would be willing to let it continue for a week. But when a vital interest is being discussed when the great fishing interests of this country are at stake, that is another thing.
Now I want to say that without great fishing interests you cannot have a commercial marine and you cannot have a navy. I want to see in a few years a navy, so that if my children desire to pursue a naval course they can do so on Canadian vessels instead of having to go abroad. I want to see a navy in this country. From what other source can you find men to man your navy unless from those who are engaged in the fishing industry ? Can you man vour navy with men from Ontario or from Manitoba ? Why, Sir, a ship manned by Manitobans or Ontarians would sink in half an hour. You want the men down by the sea to man your ships. Maritime people alone can produce a successful navy. These are the sailors that fight on the ships that win victories, it does not depend on the number of the ships or the tonnage of the navy. Now if we want a navy in this country we must encourage the great fishing interests of the maritime provinces. I say that if need came we could furnish in the maritime provinces 20,000 or 50,000 of the finest sailors in the world. Give them three months training on board a ship, and ihey would fight the fleets of Japan and Russia combined, and sink them. I want to see questions of this kind appeal to the manhood of Canada, and relegate little questions to county councils. This is a vtal question, and I ask the government to spare no pains in dealing with it. If it

takes $100,000, vote it; if it takes $1,000,000, vote it; vote all that is required to destroy the pest of the dog-fish. I have no technical knowledge of the fishing industries myself, I only know that with $1,000,000 you can get the technical information necessary to protect our fisheries. Therefore I would ask parliament to vote, if necessary, $1,000,000 to save the fishing interests of the maritime provinces, because they would serve for the foundation of a great commercial navy which I hope to see built up in this country.


Mr. R. G. MACPHERSON.: I do not knew why the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat (Mr. Gourley) singled me out for some of his jibes.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I will tell you why. 1 noticed on one or two occasions while I was speaking-I do not know whether it is the training that British Columbia people receive or not, I am not familiar with their training-but I noticed that the hon. gentleman was acting in a very boisterous manner, wrhat I would call an ill-bred manner, in attempting interruptions.


Robert George Macpherson: Mr. Chairman, 1 think I am in the judgment of every member of the House if my conduct since I have been here does not at least stand a fair comparison with that of the hon. gentleman. I do not think I have ever got up in this House and rambled all over God's green earth in making a speech. If the hon. gentleman is annoyed because, in conversation with a gentleman at my right, who saidj something to me which caused me to laugh while the hon. gentleman was speaking. I am prepared to apologize fpr my laugh, though to tell the truth i was not laughing at anything the hon. gentleman said, because most of what he said was not worth laughing at. Even if I did wish to laugh at him while he was speaking, there is no law in this country to forbid me. I think my breeding is quite as good as his, and I thinks my conduct in this House will compare favourably with his own. I would not have spoken on this dog-fish question if the hon. member had not unnecessarily brought my name into the discussion, but we in the west have some interest in this particular question. But we have not come to parliament like the hon. member for Colchester asking the government to contribute $1,000,000 towards exterminating the pest. We have dog-fish on our coasts and have had for years, but we deal with the pest ourselves, instead of asking the government to interfere on our behalf in the exercise of paternalism. I am a Canadian first, last, and all the time, and I believe that what is good for Nova Scotia is good for British Columbia. We in British Columbia have settled the dogfish question some time ago. We have erected refineries there. We catch the fish Mr. GOURLEY.
and render them into oil and use the offal as a fertilizer. The result is that we have two companies there who are now making money out of it, and *ve do not come to the Dominion parliament asking for paternal assistance. I believe there is a little too much paternalism exercised by the government in behalf of people who expect government assistance for every little industry they start, or every little difficulty they get into. No doubt our people in British Columbia would be pleased if they could receive some benefit in the way of a bounty towards destroying the dog-fish pest. Our dog-fish are just as disastrous to other fish as they are down in the maritime provinces. The only difference is that our dog-fish do not go into the rivers in such large quantities, they stay in the open sea. Our salmon go into the fresh water, and when the dog-fish do not follow them into fresh water, but are caught in traps and by an apparatus made specially for the purpose, consisting of strong steel hooks which the fish cannot bite through.


Robert Laird Borden: Are they put to any use in British Columbia ?


Robert George Macpherson: Yes. The oil is largely used as a lubricant, they call it skidway oil. We use a lot of it in our country in lumbering operations. That may seem strange to people in the east. But we have no snow there to facilitate the getting out of logs, and the people use skidways which they grease with this oil. Dog-fish livers make an oil equal to cod liver oil, and a good many people use it medicinally. I am aware from personal knowledge that it makes as good an oil as* cod liver oil. There is no better fertilizer than the residue from the refinery.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I am surprised that the hon. gentleman should talk of paternalism when we have aided British Columbia


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: Order.


Mr. GOURLEY  I.@: merely wanted to make an explanation and refer to the lead bounties which we granted British Columbia last year.


Peter Macdonald: Order.


SIR ELZEAR TASCHEREAU AND LORD DUNDONALD,
Edward Frederick Clarke: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair I wish to draw the attention of the government to a cablegram which appears in the evening papers- in the Evening ' Citizen ' of to-day and in the Ottawa Evening ' Journal.' The cablegram is to the same effect. That in the ' Citizen ' reads as follows :
London, July 19.-Sir BIzear Taschereau, chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, says he is indignant at the political capital being made out of the Dundonald affair. He says the London ' Times ' is being loaded up by Ottawa Tory

sources. There are few Scotchmen back of the whole agitation, and he cannot see how the British government, if alive to its own interests, can fail to recall Lord Dundonald before the end of the week.
In the ' Journal ' of this evening the cable is as follows :
London, July 19.-Sir Elzear Taschereau says he is indignant that political capital is being made of the Dundonald affair. The ' Times ' is loaded up by Ottawa Tory sources. Few Scotchmen back the whole agitation. He cannot see how British government, if alive to its own interests, can fail to recall Dundonald before the end of the week.
I can hardly believe it possible that these cables reflect accurately the views given in public by this distinguished jurist. His Lordship enjoys an enviable reputation as an impartial jurist, but if he desires to maintain that splendid position he must refrain from the public discussion of purely political matters. It is hardly in accord with the fitness of things that His Lordship -who is at present in London in attendance, upon the sessions of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the Supreme Court of the empire-should make use of this language, or should give utterance to these views regarding a gallant British officer who is only defending himself against the unfair and unjustifiable attacks which have been made and are being made upon him. Lord Dundonald is no longer in the service of Canada. He no longer occupies the position of General Officer Commanding the Canadian militia, and if, as it is claimed by some hon. gentlemen, that, notwithstanding the fact that he occupies no official position in Canada or in connection with the Canadian government, although a distinguished officer of the British army, it is impolitic on his part to make public speeches or to discuss a matter of this kind in which he is so vitally interested, what shall be said of the course which is being pursued by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada in this connection ? I would like to ask the government if the statement I have read has been brought to its attention ; if this statement has been authorized : if the,government approves of it, and if it will make some definite announcement as to the position of the government, either now or at the sitting of the House to-morrow ?


William Stevens Fielding: I am afraid we cannot either now or to-morrow give my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) the precise answer he wants. We cannot deny that our attention has been called to the matter because my hon. friend has called our attention to it to-day, but this is the only way in which we have becoffie acquainted with the statement and I think it would not be wise for us to assume anything to the disadvantage of the distinguished chief justice of Canada upon a
mere cable report. I think that before forming any opinion as to any utterance' of Sir Elzear Taschereau it would be wise for us to get fuller information. We have no information at the present time upon the matter to which the hon. gentleman has drawn attention.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would like to draw the attention of the hon. minister to the fact that these cables have come by our own special Canadian cable service that is paid for by the people of Canada, and they are likely to be official on that account. That is the reason why I think we are entitled to have some definite statement from the hon. gentleman.


William Stevens Fielding: If the hon. gentleman wishes to imply that these cables are in any way under the control of the. government or that the government have anything to do with them he is certainly mistaken. We grant a sum of money to aid the Canadian Press Association in the dissemination of their news but they manage the matter entirely and I can assure my hon. friend that we have not really any more control over these cables than he himself. I do not wish to offer any opinion whatever concerning them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. minister misapprehends what I meant to say. I meant to say that this cable service was supposed to devote most of its space to Canada. It was for that reason that the cable service was subsidized and for that reason I believe the service will be more likely to be official and accurate than an ordinary associated press cablegram might be expected to be.


GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC-EMPLOYMENT OF ALIENS ON SURVEYS.
Hon.  W. S.@: Yesterday the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) stated that he had received a communication from Mr. Griffith, secretary of the Amalgamated Engineers of Canada, to the effect that verbatim copies of the evidence being taken by His Honour Judge Winchester in connection with the alien labour inquiry now being conducted had been delivered to the Grand Trunk or the Grand Trunk Pacific. Yesterday I gave, as far as I was in a position to do so, as I could only speak from belief, a most unqualified denial to the statement, but I added that I would put myself in communication with the stenographer who accompanied the judge at once and ascertain the facts. I found that the stenographer was absent from Ottawa being in attendance on Judge Winchester in Montreal where he-is still engaged on the inquiry. Accordingly I sent the following telegram to Judge Winchester :

Ottawa, July 18, 1904. His Honour Judge Winchester,
Windsor Hotel, Montreal, Que.
(Rush.)
Have been asked in the House whether statement of Mr. Griffith is correct that Grand Trunk or Grand Trunk Pacific was furnished daily with verbatim copies of evidence taken by you in connection with present inquiry. What are the f&cts ?
(Sgd.) WM. MULOCK.
To which I received last evening the following reply :
Montreal, Que., 18, 04.
Hon. Sir William Mulock, K.C.,
Ottawa, Ont.
No evidence whatever has been furnished any one in connection with inquiry. I have myself only received certain portions of it on which to found my interim reports. Griffith's statement untrue.	' 1
(Sgd.) JOHN WINCHESTER.
RESIGNATION OiF LIEUTENANT COLONEL GREGORY.


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair I would like to direct the attention of the government and more especially that of the hon. Minister of of Militia and Defence (Sir Frederick Borden) to the fact that the correspondence brought down relating to the case of Lieutenant Colonel Gregory does not seem to include the correspondence between the district officer commanding No. 2 district and Colonel Gregory, which as I understand ought to be available. Perhaps that can be supplemented at an early date.


Frederick William Borden: I understood that everything was. brought down but I will make an inquiry.
Motion agreed to and House went into Committee of Supply.
,	SUPPLY.
Government of the Northwest Territories- registrars, &e., $39,000.


Mr. BLAIN.: What is the cause of the increase ?


Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of the Interior).: There has been a very large increase in the business done in the Northwest Territories ; the revenue has grown from $10,000, in 1806 to $74,800 last year. The increase of $7,000 is caused by the appointment of eight clerks at Regina at a salary of $600 each ; a clerk at Edmonton, $480 ; two additional clerks, at Edmonton, $1,200; increases in salaries to the staff generally, $1,635 ; increase in contingencies, $485, total increase, $8,000. One clerk with a salary of $1,000 has resigned leaving the net increase, $7,000.


William Mulock: Government of the Northwest Territories- insane patients, $70,000.


Mr. W. J. ROCHE.: I understand this money is paid under an arrangement with Manitoba. Has there been any change made in the manner in which the Northwest lunatics are looked after 7


Clifford Sifton: No change. We provide for the maintenance of 148 patients at $1 a day, $54,200 ; transportation, $4,500 ; clothing, &e., $500 ; additional cases, $6,408. This expenditure is constantly increasing. In 1896 it was $33,500 and for the six months from the ist of July to December 31, 1903 it was $30,431, so that I think $70,000 would be a conservative estimate. We simply pay according to a scale.
Government of the Northwest Territories- grant for schools, clerical assistance, printing, &c., to be paid half yearly, $707,979.


Clifford Sifton: This is a subsidy vote for the Northwest government and when the main estimates were made up several months ago we did not have any communication from the Northwest government as to their requirements, I simply inserted the total amount of last year's vote which would go on account of the amount that will be required for this year. It is intended to ask for the balance in the supplementary estimates. When we come to that vote, we will then know the exact amount, and I will put before the House a statement of what has been asked for by the Northwest government, so that it probably will be a more suitable time to discuss the matter.
Yukon-salaries and expenses in connection with administration of the territory, $235,540.


Clifford Sifton: There will be a further estimate in connection with this amount. We pay out of this vote the salaries and what is called the living allowances of the officials of the Yukon Territory. They have been getting a living allowance of $1,800 a year each, in addition to their salaries, on account of the excessive cost of living in that territory. Last summer I formed the opinion that the time had come When this living allowance ought to be cut down and I directed the deputy to estimate for only $900 a year for each official instead of $1,800, I had in my mind at the time that it was not likely that the amount could be cut down to $900 and I desired to discuss the exact amount with the inspector, the member for the Yukon Territory (Mr. Ross) and the commissioner who have better information in regard to the Yukon than I have. This vote includes only $900 for living allowance and the additional amount will be put in the supplementary estimates, I desire to state that it is my intention to ask the committee to vote for the married men an allowance of $1,500, and the single men an allowance of $1,000. Instead of all the officials getting $1,800 a year living allowance, the married men will get $1,500

and the single men, $1,000, except in the ease of some of the higher officials.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Why doesn't the minister give them a salary, and let them provide for themselves ?


Clifford Sifton: It is a difficult question. One or two of the other departments do that. It involves putting the salary up to such a figure that it would he difficult to make a comparison with the salaries paid in other places. It seemed to me to he much more satisfactory to pay about the same salary that we pay to a similar official in this part of the country and to add a living allowance suitable to the conditions of the country. When the conditions of the country change, we can reduce the living allowance. Otherwise the official might think whatever the. conditions were that was his salary. He cannot say that now. When the conditions change, his living allowance ought to change too.
Grant to Yukon council for local purposes, $125,000.
Mr. iSIFTON. This is in the nature af a subsidy.
Grant to Yukon council for maintenance and construction of roads and bridges, and maintenance of public buildings, $200,000.


Clifford Sifton: This is also in the nature of a subsidy, but I desire to move for the reduction of this amount by $65,420, for the fallowing reason : There has been some discussion as to whether the public buildings in the Yukon Territory should be administered as to their maintenance by the local council or by the Public Works Department. This estimate was made upon the basis of the local council carrying on that administration ; but the commissioner recommends that the method which formerly prevailed, of the Pubic Works Department administering the Dominion public buildings directly, is the more satisfactory, as it is the logical way. My hon. friend the Minister of Public Works is going to estimate for this amount in his estimates, which will be laid before the House in a few days.


Mr. WILSON.: I do not think the minister has given us any good reason why these buildings should he administered from Ottawa instead of by the local authorities. It seems to me they could be much better administered by the men on the spot.


Clifford Sifton: The Yukon council is in [DOT]the nature of a local government. It has properties of its own to administer, a separate revenue and a separate budget. These are Dominion public buildings, and not buildings of the local government.
Mr. COCHRAN1E. Fc(r many years I have thought that it was better to give the Northwest Territories local autonomy and let them manage their own business. Why should they be kept in leading strings any
longer, with all their monetary affairs directed from Ottawa ?


Clifford Sifton: If my hon. friend will reflect, he will see that there is no province in the Dominion where the provincial government administers Dominion public buildings.


Edward Cochrane: I am not talking about Dominion public buildings. I am talking about the Northwest council taking care of its own affairs. In the province of Ontario we do not get subsidies to build our roads and bridges. We have to build them ourselves, and for that reason there is more economy practiced than there would be if they were built by officials appointed by the government at Ottawa. I think the time has arrived when the Northwest Territories should have the power to manage their own affairs in the way they consider best adapted to the country.


Uriah Wilson: I understand from what the minister has said that uip to the present time these buildings have been administered by the local authorities, and he has not given us any particular reason for the change, except that they are Dominion buildings.


Clifford Sifton: Last year a change was made by which some of the Dominion public buildings which had been built by the Department of Public Works were turned over to the local government to administer. They sent us an estimate of how much it would cost and we supplied the money. In that way we have not the same control over the expenditure, and the commissioner has written to the Minister of Public Works pointing out that to have some buildings owned by the Dominion administered by the local council and others administered by the Department of Public Works involves a confusion of accounts. They were all administered by the Dominion the year before last, and the commissioner recommends that we go back to the old system. The same men will handle the money and attend to the business. It is practically only a change in the method of book-keeping.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and item reduced by $65,420.
Surveys, examination of survey returns, printing of plans, including $13,000 for Irrigation Surveys, &c.. ..$750,000 To provide for purchase of steel cases for Survey Records of the Department	 14,100
..$764,100
William James Roche: How much was surveyed last year ? The hon. gentleman told us last year that it was his intention to have 500 townships surveyed in the Northwest during this year. How many townships have been surveyed and where have, the surveys been made ?


Clifford Sifton: I have a statement of the work done last year but have not got it under my hand. I shall lay it on the table to-morrow. The work for this year is as follows :
1.	Three parties under daily pay at $15,000 each-$45,000.
Three survey parties are to be kept at work for twelve months in the Peace River District, establishing base lines and block outlines, which are the governing lines of the system of survey of Dominion Lands. These lines have to be marked on the ground in order that subdivision surveys may be undertaken in the near future.
Each party is'in charge of a Dominion Land Surveyor whose salary is $7.50 per day. The assistant is paid $3 per day ; the the cook and labourers are hired at the current rate of wages of this district. A party consists of fourteen men besides the surveyor and the assistant. The cost is about $45 per day. "
2.	Three parties under daily pay at $10,000 each-$30,000.
Three parties are to be employed during the coming season in surveying base lines and block outlines west of Edmonton and from Lesser Slave lake westwards along the 19th base line. These parties will be of the same strength as those sent to Peace river.
3.	Five parties under daily pay at $7,500 each -$37,500.
For surveying the outlines of townships between the base lines before commencing the subdivision and for making subdivision and other surveys which cannot be executed under contract, it is proposed to have five parties. One is to work in Manitoba, one in Southern Alberta and three around Edmonton and at Athabaska Landing. An outline party consists of a surveyor in charge at $6.50 per day, an assistant at $3 per day, a cook and nine or ten labourers. The cook and labourers are engaged at the current rate of wages of the country in which they are working. The cost is from $30 to $35 per day.
4.	One party under daily pay at $17,000.
The surveys made more than twenty years ago were marked by wooden posts and mounds. The posts have been destroyed by prairie or bush fires and the mounds being more or less obliterated, new settlers have great difficulty in finding the limits of their lands. The lines of these old surveys are being gradually renewed and marked with iron posts. By taking the townships in large blocks and employing a numerically strong party, the work can be done for five to six dollars per mile, which is less than half the cost of the original subdivision. It is proposed to renew the marks of survey in a block of fifty-one townships near Touchwood Hills, In eight townships at Willow Bunch in Southern Assiniboia and six townships near Prince Albert, or in sixty-five townships altogether. The work Is to be done by one party consisting of a surveyor at $7.50 per day, four assistants at $3 each, twenty-nine labourers and a cook at current wages. The cost is estimated at $75 per day.
5.	Three parties under daily pay at $7,500 each-$22,500.
For restoring the marks of obliterated surveys in Manitoba and near Edmonton, two parties are to be employed. Another party is to retrace the lines of townships in Manitoba which were badly surveyed. The lines will not be changed but plans will be made showing


William James Roche: their directions and lengths and the actual contents of every quarter section. The parties will be of the same strength as those employed for the survey of township outlines.
6.	Two parties under daily pay at $8,000 each -$16,000.
The surveys in the British Columbia Railway Belt are made by two parties, one attending to the eastern part of the belt and the other one to the western part. The parties are of the same strength as those employed for the survey of township outlines The cost per day Is a little more than in the Northwest Territories om account of the higher wages of labourers.
7.	One party under daily pay at $6,000.


Mr.  A. O.@: Wheeler completed last year his survey of the Selkirk range in the vicinity of the Canadian Pacific Railway. His report and map are being published and will prove of great interest and value to the constantly increasing number of persons who are visiting the mountains every summer. He is now to commence the survey of the Rocky Mountains between the Gap and the Columbia river and to prepare a report descriptive of the country. His salary is $2,000 a year ; he has two assistants at $75 and $60 a month respectively and during the summer engages a few labourers for work on the ground. His office is at Calgary, Alta.
8.	One party under daily pay at $5,000. It is proposed to have an exploration made of the Peace River District for the purpose of ascertaining where the best lands for settlement are situated. After these lands are located, steps will be taken for their subdivision at an early date. Incidentally, information will be collected to assist In selecting the 3,500,000 acres in the Peace River country which the province of British Columbia has agreed to convey to the Dominion. The party is to be in charge of Mr. Thos. Turnbull and will consist only of a few labourers. Mr. Turnbull's salary Is $2,000 a year.
9.	Four parties under dally pay at $6,800 each-$24,000.
The subdivision of townships into sections being executed under contract, it is necessary to have a thorough inspection made In order td make sure that the surveys have been properly and accurately executed and that the charges for doing the work are in accordance with the terms of the contract. Four Dominion Land Surveyors will be employed as inspectors ; each will have1 a party consisting of six labourers and a cook. The salary of the inspectors is $6.50 per day and the cost of each party is estimated at $25 per day.
10.	Fifty subdivision survey contracts at $7,600 each-$380,000.
The Dominion Lauds Act provides that except In special cases the township subdivision surveys of Dominion Lands shall he performed under contract at a certain rate per township, per mile, or per acre, fixed from time to time by the Governor in Council or by competitive tender. The present rate has been fixed by the Governor in Council and varies according to the difficulty of the work, from $7 per mile in bare prairie to $30 and $35 per mile in the woods. The subdivision of a township (not including the exterior boundaries laid out by surveyors under daily pay) requires the survey of forty-eight miles of section lines and of the lakes and rivers within the township. The cost varies from $350 in the hare prairie to $2,000 and over In the woods. A full township provides sixty-four free homesteads.

The surveys contemplated for the coming season comprise four hundred townships, the bulk of the work being situated west of the South Saskatchewan and south of Battleford, where a block of one hundred and eighty-three townships, mostly prairie, is to be subdivided The location of the townships is as follows :-
Townships.
Southeastern Manitoba	 8
East of Lake Dauphin	 5
Near Port Pelly	14
Southeast of Prince Albert	42
South of Battleford	183
North of Battleford.. ..		 s	 6
West of Port Pitt	48
West of Port Pitt near	Battle river.. .. 35
On Red Deer river	 9
West of 5th meridian, between Calgary and Edmonton	50-
Total	400
These townships are to be divided into fifty contracts of about-$7,600 each. The cost of the subdivision Is estimated to average $950 per township.
11.	Irrigation surveys, $13,000.
The irrigation surveys and the administration of the Irrigation Act are under the supervision of the Commissioner of Public Works of the Northwest Territories. The work includes the measurement of the discharge of streams and a topographical survey of the country suitable for irrigation, with a view to the best utilization of the quantity of water available. Two or three survey parties have been engaged on this work for several years and a number of observers are employed at various points on the streams. The work is to be continued as before at an established cost of $13,000
12.	Yukon survev office, $40,000.
13.	Employees at Ottawa, $90,000.
The greater part of the surveys staff consists of temporary clerks paid out of the appropriation for Dominion land surveys. There are at present ninety-seven, persons thus employed. They have to examine, plot and prepare for publication, the surveys made by surveyors in r.he field and to attend to the miscellaneous work incidental to a large survey office.
The plans of townships subdivided and of other surveys are lithographed for departmental use, for distribution to agents and for safle to the public. The lithographic office, where the work is done, consists of nine employees and costs about $4,800.
In the photographic office, plans are copied, enlarged or reduced as needed and plates for photozinography prepared. The office consists of six employees and costs about $3,040.
14.	20,000 iron posts, $5,000.
The corners of townships and sections are marked with iron posts made of gas 'tubing. The price averages 25 cents each. 20,000 posts are needed for the coming season.
15.	Miscellaneous, $19,000.
This item is t* cover surveying instruments, printing and supplies of various kinds.


William James Roche: Is any surveying being done at the present time in Manitoba under the auspices of the Dominion government?


Clifford Sifton: There are, among others, live east of Lake DaupOiin.


William James Roche: In what townships
are these five being made?
Mr. biFTON. I have not that information. My table does not give the exact townships, but I can obtain it for my bon. friend. I can give the committee a map of the country so as to show the townships that are being surveyed.


William James Roche: The reason I ask is that in one township, township No. 19, range 19, Which is in the permanent timber reserve there are many settlers who have petitioned the government to have it thrown open for settlement. There is practically no timber in the township and in view of the fact that land has been sold by the railway companies in that township, it seems to be the height of folly to retain it in the timber reserve. Either the settlers should be notified that it is to be kept as a timber reserve and no settlement permitted, or it should be thrown open for homesteading.


Clifford Sifton: Are there a number of half-breeds in that township ?


Mr.   W.@: ,T. ROCHE. Yes, it is near Clearwater lake.
Among papers which were brought down in answer to a motion by the bon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Stewart) I noticed some correspondence between the Dominion and provincial governments, sfhowing that the provincial government sold some land in this township, but it had not been surveyed by the Dominion government and the attention of the I[DOT]onlinion government was drawn to this. Again some railway companies have their lands situated in that township, and have been selling some of their lands to set-tiers. The township is practically without timber and the half-breeds who have settled in it are anxious to know whether they are to be permitted to remain there. Some of them have waited on me and asked me to bring the matter to the minister's attention. I forwarded several petitions, which _ I received, to the department asking that' these settlers be notified as soon as possible whether or not they are to be allowed to take np homesteads. I had a conversation with Crown Timber Inspector Stevenson, in Winnipeg last year and he said that legislation would be introduced this session in regard to that timber reserve. Is it the intention of the government to introduce such legislation or what decision has been come to in reference to this particular township.


Clifford Sifton: I have had the facts brought before me and1 have given them some consideration. As to the people being notified not to take up homesteads, I think my bon. friend will admit that they were perfectly well aware that this land is on a timber reserve, but my hon. friend will no doubt

figree that it is sometimes necessary to do more than give notice in order to keep people off government lauds. As to the colony in this particular township to whicu my hon. friend refers, some of the cases will be more or less difficult to deal with. It is not settled under the provision of the Dominion Lands Act at all. I have not been able to make up my mind positively as to how this township should be dealt with, but I think I have all the facts and only one point remains to be cleared up. I may say to my hon. friend that I think some land now in the reserve will have to be taken out of it before we make a final settlement of the question. One of the railway companies, I think it is the Canadian Northern Railway, have the right under the old Order in Council to select lands in that timber limit, but this railway was notified by the department some time ago that the department was willing to give them other lands in other places. The last communication which I saw on the subject was to the effect that their sales were not irrevocable and they were willing to carry out the suggestion as to the government acquiring these lands. We are considering the question now for the purpose of seeing what can be done. Of course the question of protecting a purchaser may arise. What I propose to do is to endeavour to effect an amicable and reasonable settlement all around so that I can introduce legislation which I would have introduced before tins if this question about the land sold by the railway company had not been brought up. When that is out of the way I shall introduce legislation to finally define the bounds of these .timber limits. As to the odd numbered sections, so far as the Canadian Northern is concerned, they have agreed to dispose to us of their sections in exchange for lands in other places and practically the only question which remains is whether there are any individual purchasers who have to be reckoned with. As to that we are now getting information.


William James Roche: Petitions have been sent to the government for several years past in reference to this, and the invariable reply has been that the department intended to send out an inspector and that as soon as his report was received the government would act on his report. I understand that one officer was sent out there last winter, made an investigation and reported. I think liis name was Mr. Stewart.


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend refers probably to Mr. Stewart, chief of the forestry branch.


Mr.   W.@: ,T. ROCHE. Yes ; he called and saw me after his inspection and told me he was going to report in favour of doing either one of two things, that the government should either close the township entirely, the government should buy up railway lands and give lands in exchange and have the Mr. SIFTON.
township joined to the permanent timber reserve, or else that a certain reserve should be set apart for these half-breeds, giving them small limits inside of the township. This I understand is the nature of his report and having that report, I do not see what else the minister is waiting for, unless, as some of these half-breeds think-and there may be some foundation for their belief-that the government is hesitating until after the elections. These gentlemen have votes and it may be that the government do not like to turn them off the land before the elections, nor do they wish to allow them to take homesteads in these townships.


Clifford Sifton: How long have they been there ?


William James Roche: Some have been there twelve months, some have come more recently and some have been there a couple of years. Some of them had votes in the last provincial election-but perhaps I had better not give the minister too much information about them. At any rate the inspector reported as long ago as last January or February and having received that report, I do not see why there should be hesitation on the part of the minister to decide as to what he should do in regard to this particular township.


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend knows well, of course, that these people had no business to go there in t'he last two years as this is a permanent timber reserve. My hon. friend and I both know perfectly well that it is sometimes difficult to keep people off government reserves, especially if there is any timber on them, or in their neighbourhood. But what I want to say is this : We want first of all to get the reserves into the hands of the government. The railway company 'has agreed to it, and practically the only difficulty we have now is to get exact information as to whether there are any persons on timber lands and where they are. Our whole object lias been to ascertain and make the final boundaries of the reserves.


William James Roche: I can assure the minister that there have been some purchases by settlers from the railway company, and some of those purchasers are located on that land purchased from the Canadian Northern Railway. Has the minister	received the report of Mr. Stewart who was sent up there last winter to investigate ?


Clifford Sifton: No doubt we have a report from Mr. Stewart, but he was not sent up there for the purpose of reporting on the details of this matter. He wrent up there to look after this timber reserve.


Mr. W. .: 1. ROCHE. I would like the minister to bring down Mr. Stewart's report. The minister knows there are many Galicians settled on those timber reserves,

and have been for the last five years. They are being allowed to develop their land, some of them are improving their land, and I understand that the Department of the Interior has not discouraged them to any great extent.
Mr. S1FTON. I venture to say that no officer of the department has directly or indirectly encouraged them to go on the timber reserves.


William James Roche: I am not charging that. I am saying that the minister is not taking any steps to remove them, seeing that they are trespassers on this land. They are allowed to sell the timber, they set fires, in consequence of which a great deal of timber is destroyed.
# Mr. SIFTON. The hon. gentleman knows what the law is about tires.


William James Roche: This very township 19, range 19, is not being thrown open to homestead entry because it is part of the 'timber reserve. There are hundreds of Galicians scattered throughout the Riding Mountains on government land ; in some cases three or four Galicians are located on one quarter section. They have not been removed as trespassers, and they are allowed to cut down timber and sell it. I do not blame them for that because that is practically all they have to maintain them during the winter. They go out to labour in the summer time, and in the winter they cut and sell wood. Now, I would ask the minister if he would allow settlers from Ontario to go up there in shoals of hundreds and settle on those lands. I think they would not be allowed to remain there five years as trespassers, as these Galicians have been allowed to remain. The whole Riding Mountains are literally crowded with Galician settlers, and either this land ought to be thrown open for settlement, surveyed and properly divided into quarter sections, or these people should be removed by the government and the timber reserve should be permanently maintained.


Mr. OSLER.: I would ask the Minister what amount was received by the government last year in repayment of land surveyed, from either the railway company or other sources ?


Clifford Sifton: No payments have yet been made by the company.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Are the individuals charged ?


Clifford Sifton: No, there are different contracts with different companies. Some companies are liable to pay and others are not.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I ask the question because I notice that you are charging the whole of this amount, $750,000, to capital. When
the land is sold the proceeds are credited to revenue ; but in the case of these surveys you are crediting revenue twice, that is to say, you are taking credit in the Interior Department, as I see on L-115, for $103,281, on revenue account.


Clifford Sifton: The Interior Department are not responsible for the book-keeping of the Auditor General.


Edmund Boyd Osler: That is the system that has been adopted and it ought to cease at once. You cannot imagine a more vicious principle of keeping accounts than to charge up to capital an advance for survey purposes, and then when that is repaid, to credit it to revenue. It is so palpably wrong that I hope, the attention of the minister having been called to it, the practice will cease.


Clifford Sifton: I will call the attention of the Minister of Finance to the remarks of the hon. gentleman. We charge the cost of surveys to capital account, that is the ordinary practice ; but when the money is repaid, the 10 cents an acre, that is paid into the consolidated revenue account.


William James Roche: Has there been any survey parties sent out to survey lands in the municipality of Rossburn, within the last couple of months ?


Clifford Sifton: If my hon. friend has anything in his mind and will give me a few details perhaps I will be able to answer him.


William James Roche: I understood a survey party was sent out under the auspices ot the Canadian government to do some surveying.


Clifford Sifton: As to dividing 1


William James Roche: Yes.


Clifford Sifton: Quite likely.


William James Roche: Have this government built any colonization roads in Manitoba ?


Clifford Sifton: No, we have not built any colonization roads in Manitoba but we have cut some trails through wooded and swampy sections for which we had a special vote of $15,000 last year.


William James Roche: Has any of that been expended or is there any work being done for this purpose in the municipality of Rossburn.


Clifford Sifton: This was in another part of the province between Lake Manitoba and Winnipeg.


William James Roche: There is no work of that kind being carried on now in this municipality ?


Clifford Sifton: No.


William James Roche: I suppose under this heading I could as conveniently ask some

questions in regard to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company's grant as under any other heading. I understand that during the past year a report has been handed in by Mr. Speers, the government agent, in regard to the work that has been done by the company in settling their territory. Under the contract entered into by the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company with the government I believe they were to locate some twenty settlers on their homestead lands and twelve others on other quarter sections and that they were to receive all the other even numbered sections in the township. I believe that outside of the agreement those who have voluntarily gone in and settled on these homesteads have been counted as amongst those who were located by the company.


Clifford Sifton: Yes.


William James Roche: What defence has the hon. gentleman for that ? Why should any voluntary settler going in and locating in any of these townships be counted as amongst those located by the company ?


Clifford Sifton: Because there was not a single settler in that part of the territory when this arrangement was made with the company. It was not considered advisable to send settlers in there. The territory was considered to be barren. It had been examined and the conclusion arrived at was that it was totally unfit for .settlement. It was settled simply because people went in and settled there. We never thought of advising settlers to go there. It was quite impossible for us to determine as to whether the settlers who were there went in as the result of the efforts of the company or as a result of our efforts.


William James Roche: The hon. minister has therefore no means of telling how many of these settlers have gone in voluntarily ?


Clifford Sifton: We have the homestead entries.


William James Roche: But they have entered voluntarily.


Clifford Sifton: They all enter voluntarily.


William James Roche: The hon. minister has no means of ascertaining how many have gone in voluntarily and not as the result of the exertions of the company ?


Clifford Sifton: What my hon. friend wants to know is as to whether we can distinguish between those who have gone in as the result of the efforts of the company' and those who have gone in as a result of the efforts of the officers of the government, or voluntarily. We have no means of distinguishing except this, that we know that our officers never advised anybody to go in there. Our officers have never made any | effort to send anybody there. At the time this arrangement was made we were not


William James Roche: prepared to take the responsibility of advising the people to go there. These people came to us and said : We are prepared to put people there. We are quite satisfied that the people we send there will be able to handle that kind of land satisfactorily. We said : Very good, if you are, go ahead.


William James Roche: Mr. Speers reported last December and in persuing Mr. Speers' report one is struck with the fact that he does not say himself definitely that these settlers are really on the land. They have already secured 150,000 acres out of 250,000 acres which they are to get from the government on the strength of the number of homestead entries which they secure not on the strength of those who are absolutely on the land, because it has been charged through the public press that many of these are fictitious entries made by those who have no idea whatever of locating upon the land and I think it is a very poor criterion of actual settlement merely to take the recorded list of entries. But, already 150,000 acres of land have been handed over on the report of Mr. Speers, although that report does not say that these men are in actual occupation of the land. It simply goes on to say that so many homestead entries have been made and it is taken as evidence that the company have fulfilled that portion of their contract. I do not think that is fair or just. In support of the position which I take in regard to this matter I would read a letter that appeared last year in the Toronto ' Globe ' from a gentleman who has himself voluntarily homesteaded in that country. It is as follows :


ABUSE OF HOMESTEAD REGULATIONS.
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'Homesteader,' Regina, writes :-We noticed an article in the ' Globe ' of July 10th referring to the abuse of homestead rights in northern Ontario in regard to the waste of timber. We have something going on here equally as bad. I have homesteaded on land seven miles from Regina and Prince Albert Railway. I made my entry in the last of September and went on my land in the beginning of May. I made my entry' here direct in the Dominion land office without the intervention of any land company, but I am in the midst of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Co.'s territory and have seen some of the methods of settlements going on. They agreed with the government to find twenty homesteaders in each township, in the choosing of lands this company has been given the privilege, hitherto not accorded to any company, of choosing what lands they please for sale, whether odd or even numbered sections and leaving for homesteaders what lands they please, whether even or odd. As a consequence all or,nearly all the homesteads are poor or almost worthless and the company has the best land for sale. As a result there is a great laxity in regard to homestead regulations. These poor homesteads are offered as an inducement by the company to intending purchasers and many buy on that understanding. Many of them never expect to live on them, hut to hold the homestead for a while and then sell out with the homestead

[DOT] 7033
thrown in as an inducement for purchasing. Those who have gone in on homesteads cannot tell what is homestead and what is sold and can get scant information, as the government land agents, at least the one I had to get my information from is a relative of the president, and consequently in sympathy with the said company and their purchasers. Where we are at present there are three of us who have started in actual residence of our homesteads, and for six miles around there are only three living on homesteads, yet there are many homesteads around us taken up as soon as ours and no one on them. We are almost alone and like Robinson Crusoe for loneliness, In the midst of a large tract of land held by land speculators. Nearly all has been sold or homesteaded around us, but now, more than nine months after entry, there is nothing doing and no one on these homesteads held by the speculators waiting for the rise in the price of land. We think the department at Ottawa did a very unwise thing in allowing this company to make odd numbered section homesteads. If there were a uniform system as to what was homestead and what land company land, we poor homesteaders could see that these absentee homesteaders had their claims cancelled, but we can not get any but scant information as to what is not homestead. An American can secure favours with this company that an native Canadian cannot enjoy. We know of cases where men had made excuses to the land agent and they do not intend to come on their homesteads until next spring. They just came in and promised to have five acres broken and then went away to Minnesota again. We think this is an unjust stretching of the rules and regulations in regard to homestead regulations and very unfair with those who are complying with them. We are of the opinion that the ways and methods of this land company need to be investigated, as the way in which homestead regulations are violated is the laughing-stock of those who are on homesteads and by none more than Americans who have taken homesteads. They think we must have a very strange government that will allow any company to do as has been done by the Saskatchewan Valley Land Co. I may say that what I am speaking of takes place a little over a hundred miles north-west of Regina.
Clifford Sifton: What is the date of that letter ?


Mr.  W. .T. ROCHE@: It is from the ' Globe of the 1st of August, 1993. Apparently this gentleman is not an opponent of the government ; at any rate, he is a devoted reader of the Toronto ' Globe,' and he sent his communication to it. I happened to see this letter last fall, and I thought it only proper to bring it to the attention of the minister because if these charges are true they are very serious, and they show" that my contention is strictly correct ; that these gentlemen come in. take up homesteads, purchase a certain amount of land at as low a rate as possible from the company ; wait until the price increases ; sell it; pocket their profit, and throw their homestead in, which may be of inferior land.


Mr. DAVIS.: What is the name of the writer of that letter ?


William James Roche: I said he signed it ' Homesteader.'


Thomas Osborne Davis: Oh ; it is an anonymous letter.


William James Roche: I presume the Toronto [DOT] Globe ' has the writer's name, and if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Davis) desires to get it he will probably receive it from his friends of the ' Globe ' much readier than I could.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Clifford Sifton: I was asked before six o'clock as to the conditions of sale by the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. It is evident that the person who wrote letter read by my hon. friend (Mr. W. J. Roche) was under a misapprehension with regard to some points. His statement with regard to the homesteading of odd numbered sections is made in entire misapprehension of the facts, because there has been no homesteading of the odd numbered sections in that tract at all. The odd numbered sections were reserved long years ago for the land grant to the Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway, and the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company having purchased the land grant of that railway had the right to select the land from these odd numbered sections. We do not deal with the odd numbered sections at all ; our dealing was altogether with the even numbered sections. As to the question of the settlement being bona fide or not, the settlers make their settlement in accordance with the ordinary rules. Every settler has to make his affidavit in the regular form, stating that he is bona fide taking up his land for his own benefit alone, and that he intends to reside and make his home upon it. Under the law he has six months to go upon it and reside, and an extension of time may be given. I do not remember whether there were any extensions of time in this particular tract or not, but the number of extensions is comparatively small, and the extensions have been given on what seemed to be reasonable ex cuses. That which is referred to by the correspondent as indicating bad faith is no indication of bad faith at all. He says a number of people went there and took up their homestead entries and went back to the States. Well, that is what a great many settlers from the United States do. They take up the lands and go back for their families, as most of them do not bring their families in until the next year. However, before they get the land they have to fulfil the settlement duties. So far as this particular tract is concerned, some time an order was given to the homestead inspector to make a thorough inspection of the whole tract. Patents were granted by officers of the department to the extent of



something like 150,000 acres. There was deposited $50,000 on account of the balance of the land, and we shall have the report of the homestead inspector as to the exact performance of the settlers' duties. I do not think there is any fear that the transactions will not be carried out.


William James Roche: The gravamen of the charges made in that letter, and what I intended to convey was that the government had disposed of 150,000 acres already on the strength of the homestead entries, and that there was no read proof that settlement had taken place. The minister does not attempt to contravene that statement. On the strength of Mr. Speers' report he has handed over
150,000	acres out of the 250,000 acres, and Mr. Speers does not attempt to prove that these settlers are actually on the land. That they have taken the homestead entries is an evidence of good faith that these settlers are on the land, but as a matter of fact they are not. Notwithstanding that after the homestead entry has been made, six months is given to them to go on the land, the gentleman who wrote this letter has distinctly stated that nine months have elapsed and practically none of them were on the land.


Clifford Sifton: I hope my hon. friend will not assume that the statements in this letter are to be taken literally, because on the face of it the writer shows that he does not know the facts when he says the odd numbered sections are being homesteaded.


William James Roche: That is a technical point which the minister takes advantage cf. This gentleman may not be aware that they purchased the odd numbered sections from the Regina and Long Lake Railway Company, but in other respects the writer shows that he is well acquainted with local conditions. He tells us that in a radius of six miles there are only six settlers, and he shows that he understands what he is talking about. He gives evidence that home stead entries have not been followed up by actual settlement. What we complain of is that 150,000 acres of this land grant is practically handed over to the company without satisfactory evidence that the settlers have been secured to the country. This government has stated that they have reversed the policy of their predecessors and reserved the land for the settlers, but we charge that they have practically done nothing of the kind. The government has sold this land for $1 an acre ; the land may not have been worth very much when they sold it, but according to Mr. Speers' report some of the poorest of that land has been sold for $5 an acre by that company, and it sells up as high as $10 an acre. Another feature is that the government is taking scrip as well as cash in payment. In other words, instead of having $150,000 in cash for the 150,000 acres, Mr. Speers reports that they have scrip to the amount of $98,000 and cash to the amount of $52,000.


Clifford Sifton: In my opinion scrip was never intended to be utilized' for the payment of lands in blocks such as this contract called for ; and I do not think it is right or proper for the government to practically assist any band of speculators, who no doubt purchased this script at a very reduced figure, possibly at 50 cents on the dollar or less to make large protits by accepting it at par. I see that there is a stipulation in the contract that ' they can pay in scrip or in cash. That feature of the contract I condemn. I think the government, when disposing of the lands so cheaply, should have insisted on being paid in cash and not in scrip. I also desire to point out that in the agreement entered with these gentlemen, there are the names of two Canadians, Mr. Macdonuell and Mr. Adamson. Mr. Macdonuell, I understand, 's the leader of the opposition in the territorial assembly. Mr. Adamson is the Liberal candidate in one of the constituencies for a seat in this House. I think it is not according to strict propriety that Mr. Adamson should be in that position and at the same time connected with such a large laud speculation. The hon. minister can see how he could use his position in many ways to bring pressure to bear on settlers who have taken up land, in order to secure their support. I think strict propriety should induce the government to advise Mr. Adamson either to retire from the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company or from his candidature for the Dominion House. I think the hon. minister himself will scarcely defend Mr. Adamson's position. I desire to ask the minister also, is it or is it not a fact that Mr. Turiff has some connection with the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company ? I have heard not only from his political opponents, but from many of his political supporters that Mr. Turiff is secretly connected with that company. In fact, they have intimated to me that he was compelled, through fear of his connection with it being disclosed, to resign his position of Dominion Land Commissioner. He also is a Liberal candidate for the representation of Eastern Assiniboia in this House, and he can use his position to influence the electors in the same was as Mr. Adamson. The minister will know whether that statement in regard to Mr. Turiff is true or not. If it is, he should not be allowed to occupy the position he does in connection with the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company and at the same time be a Liberal candidate for this House.


Clifford Sifton: With regard to the contract, I may say that the number of settlers in the district was given in the report of the land agent last December, and upon that the officers of the department acted. The only question can be whether the settlers wiil remain on the land. Instructions have been issued to an inspector to go there for the purpose of verifying the fact. I

have not the slightest fear that the conditions regarding settlement will not be carried out. As to the price paid for the lands, all I can say is that these lands would have been homestead lands if we had not disposed of them in this way. Had settlers gone upon them, they would have returned no funds to the government. By the sale the lands returned to the government $1 an acre, so that, so far as money is concerned, the government is $250,000 ahead. The lands were surveyed sixteen or seventeen years ago, but settlers had passed through them and had gone to various other parts of the country. My information is that there were only three or four homestead entries in good standing in the department at the time the lands were disposed of. At the present time we have the prospect of a well-settled territory as a result of the arrangement made. As to the payment of scrip, it makes no difference in the world to the government whether the land is paid for in money or in scrip. Scrip is receivable in payment for Dominion lands, and sooner or later the government has to redeem it. As to Mr. Adamson's connection with the company, all I have to say is this, that we do not exercise any control over the electors of Humboldt. They have a right to nominate any one they like for a seat in this House, and they nominated Mr. Adamson. As to Mr. Turiff being connected with this contract. I never heard any rumour to that effect until something was said about it in one of the committees of the House. I believe Mr. Turiff was asked if he had any connection with the company, and he said he had not. That is all I know about it. When the rumour came to my knowledge, I asked him if he had any connection with the company, and he said he had not. It had nothing to do with his resignation of the position of Commissioner of Doriiinion Lands. Mr. Turiff had nothing whatever to do with the contract. It was made with the president of the company, Colonel Davidson, who discussed the matter with the deputy minister. My deputy informs me that various members of the company- were here, and that he discussed the matter with them. I never discussed it with them or saw any of them in connection with it. The question was submitted to me by the deputy minister, and I approved of it. So far as Mr. Turiff is concerned, he had nothing to do with and gave no advice in connnection with this matter, and I am informed that it was never brought before him. As to the general features of the transaction, the operations of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company, resulting from the acquisition of this tract of land, have been of immense benefit to the Northwest. If we had given the land to it for nothing, we would have received benefits ten times over in return. This company has been exceedingly efficient as a 224j
colonization agent. It has placed a lot of valuable settlers not only on this tract but on the remainder of its tracts. I can recall no feature of our colonization policy in the Northwest which has been attended with greater success than the efforts of this company. Every one familiar with the district will bear me out in what I say, that on this land, which was tenantless for many years, we have at the present time a very large and thriving settlement, which bids fair to grow not only in numbers, but in wealth.
I think the transaction is in every way advantageous to the country and one which will promote good settlement.


William James Roche: The minister has stated that settlers would not go into that country in years gone by, which is very true. Many years ago the land in that particular district was not looked upon as being very superior land and was not taken up as there were hundreds of thousands of acres of much better land available. But, as occurs in many countries, land is now being settled upon and purchased in Canada that would not have been taken up a few years ago. The minister states that an inspection of those lands will be made and that actual settlers will have to be provided for before the balance of the land will be handed over to the company. That is all very well after 150,000 acres out of the 250,000 have been handed over to them upon the mere strength of the homestead entries. I think it is a distinct admission by the minister that he has been rather remiss in this mattei-, and has been late in taking the stand he now proposes.


Clifford Sifton: If the matter had been brought to my attention when the report was brought in, I would have given instructions that a special report should be made. As soon as it was brought to my attention I gave instructions for a special report.


Mr.  W. J.@: ROiCHE. The minister was rather tardy in giving instructions, because-it is well known that 150,000 of the 250,000 acres have come into possession of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company without sufficient proof being furnished for members of this House to see that the conditions of their contract have been complied with. In fact, I think when the discussion was up last session the minister himself remarked that they were not likely to fulfil their conditions, that is the condition that they were to have two-fifths of their settlers in these townships inside of two years. The minister then said :
The two years are not yet up, hut will be in a few months. It is very doubtful if they will be in a position to get anything.
That was in July last, but 150,000 acres of these lands have been handed over on the ground that the company have complied with the conditions, that is that thirty-two 1 settlers have been provided for each town-

ship. As a matter of fact, they have taken the report of Mr. Speers of the number of entries as proof in that regard. I wish to draw attention to this fact, that in order to arrive at that conclusion they had to group the townships. I ask the minister if that was the intention in the first place ? Had (hey not to take the townships separately, and did not this condition apply to each individual township rather than to a group of townships, for which an average would be struck ? I understand, according to the report of Mr. iSpeers, that the latter procedure has been followed ; whereas, as a matter of fact, the agreement and the intention of the agreement was that they were to secure thirty-two settlers in each individual township.


Clifford Sifton: As to the last question which my hon. friend has raised, I may say that where they take any land they will have to take the whole township, and will have to have an average of so many for the whole township. They cannot scatter their settlement.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I think that no one in this House is as well acquainted with this tract of country as I am, because ever since the rail way was built through that section I have been travelling up and down it, that is for the last thirteen or fourteen years. To my mind, the bargain that has been discussed this evening is a first-class bargain tor the people of this country. For thirteen years there was not a settler in that district, not a homestead was taken except three or four, where some section foremen made some homestead entries. No one would go in, and I may say that if the whole tract had been offered to me previous to this arrangement with the government, simply on condition that I should pay the taxes, I would not have felt justified in taking it. What are the facts of the ease ? This com-.pany has spent a lot of money. All is not gold that glitters. The hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Roche) talks about their getting the land so cheap. He forgets to take into consideration the vast amount of money that they have spent in advertising, not only that tract of country, but the whole Northwest. If we could trace it up, I fancy that a great deal of the immigration we are now getting should be attributed to the advertisements of these people in the United States. I have been in some of the large cities of the United States and have seen what this company have been doing. They took up a special train of ten or fifteen pullmans loaded with people from the western states, senators. &c., to show them what that country was like, and that train must have cost them a great deal of money. They took that land when there was no one upon it, and now the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Roche) tries to make out that this land has been granted to them on homestead entries, but that the people are not there. The people must be there, for Mr. W. J. ROCHE.
there are large towns all along that line, which have sprung up since that company undertook the work of filling that country. There are large towns, large lumber yards and machine factories, dozens of stores, &c. If there was not some one back in the country these people would not be doing business, and if my hon. friend would take the trouble to go up the line of the Qu'Appelle and Long Lake Company, he would find that a large number of people have gone in there. Even the gentleman who wrote that letter would not have been there if it had not been for the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. He was in the west for thirteen years and never thought of going into that district until the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company began operations there. Then he went there and thought they had a good thing. Like many other people, he thought that all was gold that glittered. He, too, neglected to consider that this company have spent an enormous sum of money in advertising that country and advertising the whole Dominion. When the whole transaction is threshed out, I venture to say that the company will make very little money out of it. My hon. friend alluded to the fact that Mr. Adamson was a member of that company when it was formed some three or four years ago and the purchase was made, and he seemed to think that for that reason Mr. Adamson had no right to be a candidate. I have never before heard such a doctrine as that. Because a gentleman four or five years ago happened to have transactions with the government it is contended that he cannot now become a candidate if the people want him to run. The people of this country have not shut out Canadian Pacific Railway directors, for instance. If that rule had been enforced, many of those who occupied seats on this side of the House previous to 1896 could not have been members, because if you traced up their records you would find that a majority of them had acquired timber limits or had some such dealings with the government of the day. It is ridiculous to talk about such a doctrine. This gentleman went in there two years ago, and if the people of Humboldt want him-as they have shown by their large vote in his favour at the convention that they do want him-they will elect him by a large majority, and I think they have a perfect right to do so. The bargain, taking it all around, is one of the best bargains ever made for this country. It has already done a great deal for the western country, not only by the filling up of the regions which were always in the past looked upon as useless, but by filling up other sections of the country, because this company has spent thousands and thousands of dollars in advertising this country. This company have carried on their operations in a very businesslike way. The first thing they did on the prairie was to survey a town. Then they built large hotels with their own money, built livery barns and appointed men to show settlers over the country in order that they might select lands. They ran the hotels free. People came in under these circumstances, and now my tion. friend asks : Is it certain that the people on the land were brought in by that company ? Considering that the land lay there for thirteen years without any person going on it, we must assume that any one who is on the land there must have gone on it, directly or indirectly, through the efforts of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company.


Mr. CLANCY.: The hon. gentleman has made just such a defence as one would expect. He tells us this is a good bargain.
I do not know whether he is interested, but no one would be astonished if he furnished a portion of the scrip.


Thomas Osborne Davis: This has gone so far that not only from speakers on the other side but also from the Conservative press in this country comes the charge that I am a scrip speculator. That was stated in an article in the ' Mail and Empire ' the other day ; and although I do not take much stock in what appears in that paper, yet as this charge is repeated so often, I wish to state now that out of the thousands and thousands of scrip issued in the Northwest Territories at the time, I did not buy more than fifteen in all, and I bought that to put on some lands of my own.


James Clancy: Of course I must accept the hon. gentleman's statement, but his defence is not quite what it was on the last occasion. On the lasLoccasion his defence was that he had paid just as much as other people did for the scrip. Now it appears to be that he only bought a very limited quantity. However that is unimportant one way or" the other. One thing perfectly clear is that the contract has been utterly disregarded in every feature. We have the declaration of the hon. minister himself, copied in the report of Mr. Speers, that there is nothing more to show than that entries were made there, without a particle of proof that there was a single settler. I do not say that there are no settlers. Perhaps there are, but there are no pretense that the company fulfilled the contract, and that is the difficulty. I understood the hon. gentleman to say* that his attention was called to that after the grant of 150,000 acres had been made. I would like to ask him if he was aware at the time the 150,000 acres were granted this company that he only was in possession of a report stating that so many entries had been made and not stating what settlers were upon the land.


Clifford Sifton: No, I was not aware until after the grant was patented. When it was brought to my attention I gave instructions that an actual inspection should be made. My hon. friend must understand that a matter of that kind might go a certain distance without being brought to my attention. As soon as it was brought to my at. tention, I gave instructions to have an actual inspection made and also calling attention to the provisions of the contract.


James Clancy: I quite understand that small transactions might slip through, but am unable to understand how the officers of his department could take upon themselves to grant 150,000 acres of land without the authority to do so. Who took upon themselves to carry out a large transaction of the kind upon the report then given ? Who was the guilty party ?


Clifford Sifton: My deputy in the patent branch issued the patent. When the thing came to his knowledge he brought it to my attention. We discussed the terms of the contract and I gave my instructions.


James Clancy: The hon. minister knows that the contract was before his officers. It provides as follows :
It is agreed that the purchasers shall place twenty settlers on each free homestead land in each 'township and twelve on lands which may be sold by the purchasers, before they shall be entitled to the remaining even numbered sections. In other words, there shall be in each township twenty quarter-sections to he settled on by homesteaders and twelve on the company's sections which the settler may purchase.
That contract was in the minister's department, and some person in the department must have taken upon himself great responsibility. Surely the hon. gentleman has no officer in his department who would attempt to issue a patent for 150,000 acres of land upon the report of Mr. Speers which disclosed nothing that entitled the company to the lands. He cannot pass that over by saying that some one unknown to him had committed an act of that kind. Was it done on the recommendation of his deputy.


Clifford Sifton: No.


James Clancy: If the deputy did not recommend it, who did ?


Clifford Sifton: We will make a careful search and find out exactly liow the transaction took place. My hon. friend must understand that there have been placed on these lands an average of twenty-one set-lers in each township where the company are operating.


James Clancy: That is not disclosed in the report.


Clifford Sifton: As to whether the settlers have actually remained there or not, we have sent out our inspectors to find out. As the fulfilment of the remainder of the conditions, we have the deposit of $50,000 and the remainder of the 100,000 acres which the company will not willingly give up without trying to earn it. True the land has increased in value, but it is through the efforts of the company, and I have not the


'047 COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
the slightest doubt that, under present conditions, they will go on and earn that land. A year ago I had doubts, because at that time they had not been successful, but at present I have not the slightest doubt, and no doubt the report will show that all those settlers are there. The government has perfect security.
James Clancy: I have not talked about security. That is another branch which we may discuss later on. I have not stated what security the government has for the carrying out of the contract. I am calling attention particularly to the gross , irregularity, I may say the criminal conduct of an official in his department, with a contract of that description before his eyes, when it is disowned by the minister himself, denied by his deputy, and still neither of these gentlemen knows who is the guilty party. It is the most extraordinary statement I ever heard made in the House of Commons-that 150,000 acres of land is handed over to this company. Why, Sir, what conclusion will the country draw from that circumstances ? Either that the officers in his own department must be concerned in it, or they would never have taken upon themselves to be guilty of a transaction of that kind. Yet we are told by the minister that there is no impropriety in Mr. Adamson becoming a candidate-a candidate in support of the hon. gentleman himself, a candidate in his interest, a candidate that has been a participant in that transaction, a candidate to whom 150,000 acres of land was handed over. Will any person say there is no impropriety in that? It is a transaction that seems perfectly plain to be a conspiracy against the interest of the people. It is idle for the hon. gentleman to talk about the security. If there is any security it is not because he carried out the conditions of the contract, or that he was careful that his officers observed their duties. If he has security, it has been given in utter disregard of that sort of thing. Now I leave the hon. gentleman to stand convicted of a transaction in his department that shows the loosest kind of administration of the business of the people of this country. The department must have fixed designs upon the people of this country to have evaded the instructions and to hand these lands over to these persons who were not entitled, according to any information in the department, to a single acre. The hon. gentleman, only two or three months before, declared that so far as he knew then he did not think they were entitled to an acre of that land. I do not think the hon. gentleman is in a very enviable position. He had better hunt up the culprit in his department and dismiss him.


William James Roche: The hon. ministei and the member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) have spoken about this land as bav-


Clifford Sifton: ing become valuable simply because it passed into the possesison of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. For thirteen years nobody would settle on it, the hon. member himself would not have taken it for the taxes. Settlers passed by it and went into a more productive portion of the country because this was worthless. But as soon as the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company got possession of it, does he mean to say that the quality of the land improved so much simply because it changed owners ? It is true that these gentlemen advertised extensively, and how did they advertise ? In a manner that commends itself to the minister? I do not think so. The minister rather repudiated them last year. If it is true that these were worthless lands that nobody would settle on for thirteen years, they were no use, what did the Saskatchewan Land Company do ? They issued a prospectus lauding those lands to the skies as being amongst the most productive in the Northwest Territories. This was brought to the attention of the minister last session by the leader of the opposition :


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that the company has issued a prospectus in which these lands were described in very glowing terms.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am not responsible for the advertisements of lend companies.
The minister was quite unwilling that the land company should advertise these as being among the most productive lands in the Northwest Territories, because it would induce settlers to come in under false pretenses. If they are as good as described by the member for Saskatchewan, I do not think the members of this company need to be commiserated because of their bargain with this government. Take the 150,000 acres of which they have already secured possession, and which they have got at $1 an acre. In reality they have not paid $1 an acre, they paid $98,000 altogether in script, which they may have purchased for fifty cents on the dollar. But assuming that they paid in cash $1 an acre, or $150,000 they have sold that land, putting it at a low average, for $5 an acre. Mr. Speers in his report states that most of the land has been selling at $5 an acre. As a matter of fact it has sold from $5 to $10. But putting it at the lower figure, $5 an acre, they received $750,000. Deducting all expenses in connection with the transaction I think you will find that they have made $000,000 profit.


Clifford Sifton: The hon. gentleman tries to make the point that the lands were sold at an undervaluation. There was a tract of
3.500.000	acres of land set apart from which the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway Company might select about
500.000	acres. That arrangement was made

many years ago before I took office. Matters progressed until I bad been in office for a year or two, and the company alleged that they were unable to earn 800,000 acres of land in the 3,500,000. This 3,500,000 was examined and reported upon by officers of the railway company and by officers of the government, and by far the greater portion of it was classified by them as being actually worthless, unfit for settlement, of such a character that the company could not recoup themselves out of it. So bad was it that this railway company brought an action in the Exchequer Court of Canada for the purpose of compelling the government to make good the contract, and to give them the equivalent of the 800,000 acres. We gave them 3,500,000 to select from, and they brought action in the Court of Exchequer for the purpose of proving that there was not 800,000 acres in that whole tract fairly fit for settlement. This particular tract that we are Talking about is the worst of the 3,500.000 acres. It was considered absolutely hopeless in every possible way. Within a year before this transaction took place, the solicitor of that railway company came to my office and asked me if I would favour securing from the government of Canada authority to pay them $1.25 an acre instead of giving them the 800,000 acres they were entitled to. That is to say, although they had 3,-
500,000	acres to select from, they wished me to make an offer, which they would accept, to settle with the company by paying them at the rate of $1.25 an acre for the whole
800,000	acres. This 250,000 acres was in the worst district and sold at $1 an acre a few months afterwards to these people with the settlement conditions to which I have referred and which are set out in the contract. Let me point out further that in the next season this land presented a little more favourable appearance. I am not alluding particularly to this tract, but to the whole 3,500,000 acres. The same people who bought the 250,000 acres went to the people who owned the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan land grant of 800,000 acres, and bought their entire land grant which they could select from this 3,500.000 without any settlement conditions. They bought the whole 800,000 acres from shrewd speculators like the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Osier) who I believe was interested in the transaction ; they bought the whole 800,000 acres I think for $1.75 an acre, with the privilege of selecting it from the 3,500,000 without any conditons whatever. There could be no more absolutely conclusive evidence of the fact that the dollar an acre we got was the full value of the land without any settlement conditions whatever. If we had sold it for a dollar an acre without any settlement conditions we should have made a very good bargain.


William James Roche: In referring to the hon. gentleman's remarks last year as to the number of settlers sent in by the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company, I find that the hon. gentleman said :
Of course they -have sent in a considerable number. I recollect now they applied to get some patents, and they filed some information with regard to settlers. But the evidence which they filed did not prove that they had complied with the conditions and consequently we did not give them the land.
Will the hon. minister explain what evidence the land company filed with the government in order to claim the patents for their land ? Was it homestead entries ?


Clifford Sifton: I presume they referred to homestead entries as sufficient evidence.
I was not willing to act upon that, hut subsequently the officers issued the patents on Mr. McCannel's report.


William James Roche: That is the ground , upon which we are condemning the bon. gentleman. It seems that last year the company had made application on the strength of homestead entries to get their land. The hon. minister refused and notwithstanding that refusal the land has been banded over to them on the strength of that evidence.


Mr. SPROULE.: I wish to say that the explanation in regard to the land seems rather strange in view of the fact that when you look over the surveyors' field-notes you find that land is graded No. 1, No. 2, 'No. 3 and No. 4. Quite a portion of this land is graded No. 2 and No. 3. Under those circumstances it could not have been such very bad land, because No. 2 and No. 3 would be fairly average good land.


Clifford Sifton: This land is hi the worst tract of the whole lot.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: These are your own Surveyors' field-notes as to quality.


Clifford Sifton: It has been examined by expert land examiners on behalf of the railway companies and on behalf of our department and so far as this particular tract of land is concerned we have their statement that it was no good, that it was absolutely worthless.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the examination of your surveyors of no value ? It has always been regarded as of value. For the last twenty years or more we have been getting that information and settlers have accepted it as evidence of the quality of land. If land is graded as No. 1 it is regarded as the best land, if No. 2 It is fairly good land, and if No. 3 it is fairly good land, and if No. 4 it is regarded as not being very good land. The value which was attached to it twenty years ago has

been accepted. Whatever means the surveyors took of satisfying themselves of the quality of the land, I presume that the land is the same as it was before.


Clifford Sifton: That is not the statement Of the expert examiners.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The expert examiner is not likeiy to go over it as carefully as the surveyor did, because the surveyor has to run up both sides of each section and he makes his report upon it. The land examiners are not likely to go over the lots as carefully as the surveyor is required to do.


Clifford Sifton: That is what they were sent there for.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not think the inspectors go over every foot of land when they go into a locality to ascertain what is the general quality of the land.


Clifford Sifton: This matter was a sore subject with the department, a subject of dispute, a subject that became so acute that the railway company finally sued us for damages in the Court of Exchequer. They claimed that they should select the land farther north. They did not claim that they ought to have taken this land.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: _Wliat portion is good land and what portion is bad land, because what I saw of it did not lead me to the impression that it was bad land ? There is another thing which seems to strengthen me in the impression that it is not bad land and it is the fact that it has been sold to farmers who have gone and examined it for themselves and who ought to be good judges. It has been sold to them for $5, $7 and $8 an acre. That does seem to be conclusive evidence that the land could not be so very bad.


Clifford Sifton: I hope it will turn out better than we expected.


Mr. SCOTT.: Before this arrangement was made you could not get any person to look at the land at all. A very strong corporation, the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway Company were using every means even going so far as to go to tile courts to prove that the whole district was absoluteiy worthless and for years every effort proved entirely unavailing to get any person to get off the train and examine the land.


William James Roche: They have read the speeches of some of your friends.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The bon. gentleman if he knows anything, knows that one reason was because there were a few dry years in that country it led to the impression that the land was in the dry belt and was of practically no value for farming purposes. The result was that a good many people


Thomas Simpson Sproule: who had settled on that land during the dry years got up -and left it because of the feeling which they had that they could not carry on agricultural pursuits successfully. But this same district to-day seems to be as fine as any other district in the Northwest Territories.


Thomas Walter Scott: Very likely this district will prove so, but what I have stated is the absolute fact that no person could be got to get off the train to look at this territory. For a hundred miles through this territory where there had been a railway in operation since 1890 only three homestead entries had been recorded. Between Lumsden, twenty miles north of Regina, and Saskatoon, on the south branch of the Saskatchewan river, a distance of over 100 miles, except one little ranching community at Dundurn, although a railway had been running through that country for twelve of thirteen years, there was not a single farmer, not one single settler, and people could not even be prevailed upon to look at the land partly as a result of the action of the railway company which had gone to the length of going to the courts to prove that the district was absolutely worthless.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not know whether the hon. gentleman is in possession of the facts, or whether he has ever been there or not. But, we have to accept his statement that there is only one farmer in that district. My information is a little different, but we have to accept his statement and take it for granted that he knows. I would only remind him that the Calgary ana Edmonton Railway runs through a section of the country that is regarded to-day as one of the most valuable in the Northwest Territories and that a few years ago you could go northward for 100 miles from Calgary and find very little land settled. Up to the last few years you could go to many of these stations and right up to The railway you would find no land settled. That railway was in existence for settlers and running all right. The real cause was that there was plenty of other land available for settlement and that a few dry seasons frightened the people out of that country. I know many who left that district believing it was not likely to be fit for agriculture, but I take it that the reports of the surveyors are as good evidence as we can have of the quality of the land, and they grade it into two or three classes.


Thomas Walter Scott: The very same people compose the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company and the Calgary and Edmonton Land Company, as are interested in these lands, and they made no objection against accepting the lands along the line of the Calgary and Edmonton Railway. The conditions along that line were quite different.

The southern portion of the Calgary anti Edmonton Railway is through range country where until recent years there were not many homestead entries made.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why were there no homestead entries made when there was a railway there ?


Thomas Walter Scott: North of Calgary for a distance of perhaps fifty miles, similar cm-ditions prevail to those prevailing south of Calgary to the American boundary line. It is range country and until recent years there were ranches and ranching towns every few miles along the line, but there were not many homesteads. On the Prince Albert Branch Railway north of Regina, when you got north of the town of Lumsden you ran for more than a hundred miles without seeing a single individual except a few section lhen in summer and even they were not there in the winter time. Let me say to the House that if it had not been for this arrangement made with these American land speculators, these enterprising people, I venture to say the railway of the hon. gentleman's friend from Toronto (Mr. Osier) would be out of commission to-day, and they would not be running trains over it. On the 11th of February last year, I was on a train on that line which wandered off upon the prairie. I do not think it was running at a greater speed than ten miles per hour, but the ties were so rotten that even with the aid of the winter frost they were unable to hold the rails to keep the train upon the right of way. Until this arrangement was made two years ago, there was so little business along that line of railway, that the Canadian Pacific Railway which has been operating it for the owning company headed by the member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) could not find any encouragement to make betterments upon the road, and it got into such a condition that it was almost dangerous to travel upon it. I say it again, and I say it advisedly, that had not that arrangement been made the railway would be at this moment out of commission. Hon. gentlemen opposite, in the attitude they have taken to-night, are quite consistent with their previous political history. It reminds me that some years ago when Sir Wilfrid Laurier spoke at the board of trade banquet in Toronto after the Conservative Minister of Finance who had read long pages of statistics to prove that Canada was prosperous. Sir Wilfrid remarked that if he were at the head of the government and wished to prove that prosperity prevailed, he would ask the people to put their hands in their pockets to find whether prosperity existed. Our friends on the other side of the House still prefer to quote statistics and to hunt up departmental records, but for my part I prefer to go into the country and see the existence of prosperity
along that line of railway, where only three or four years ago there was nothing but desolation. To-day you can see thriving towns with hundreds of people doing a prosperous business. It is only four years ago this fall that my hon. friend from the Yukon (Mr. Ross) and myself took a trip along that railway to that little ranching district of Dundurn. There was a building called Dundurn station, but no agent and no operator, and we had to wait on the railway line from ten o'clock in the morning till well after dark before we could get a train. There was no agent and no operator to give information, and we dare not leave the railway track for fear the train might come along at any moment. I was up there again a year ago last winter after this arrangement had been made with the Saskatchewan Land Company, and there was an agent at Dundurn station and I suppose a dozen large buildings, where a few months before there was nothing to in-dicatae business or prosperity. This Saskatchewan Yalley Land Company arrangement, taken by itself, has proved perhaps the most effective and successful of all the measures of the Minister of the Interior towards North-west progress.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The argument of the hon. member (Mr. Scott) is rather amusing, because it is not so long ago that we heard him declare in this House, that this railway line was so inefficient that it prevented settlers from going into the country. Tonight he says that but for this land deal that railway would not be a paying concern. He now contrasts the policy of the present government with the policy of the late government, and he says that because of the policy of this government there were thriving and prosperous towns and fertile country districts settled by farmers. If the land there was bad, it would not be settled with prosperous farmers ; you would not i find settlers take up their homesteads on land of such inferior quality as he described this land to be.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have not said that the land is bad ; I do not think it is. It is perhaps not as good as in some other sections of the country. There may be certain sections of it not particularly good, but I do not wish to be understood as saying that the land is bad. I believe that a very large portion of the land in that district may be found to be very good indeed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why, five minutes ago the hon. gentleman said that the land was so bad, that the railway company went into the Exchequer Court to try to get out of taking it.


Thomas Walter Scott: They said it was bad ; I did
not say so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman said that these shrewd railway men after send-

ing their agents to inspect the land, actually refused to take it because it was so bad.


Thomas Walter Scott: I did not say so; they did.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And yet a few minutes afterwards the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) gets up and says that owing to the salu-tory policy of the government, there are rich and prosperous farmers settled on this land. It is quite plain that there is a nigger on the fence, and that any argument the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) may present to the House in regard to that section of the country must be taken at a discount. He has a peculiar kind of hydrophobia, which, whenever the member for Toronto or that railway company is mentioned, causes him to jump up in his seat as if he were worked by a spring, to denounce that hon. gentleman and the railway company with which he is connected. He places at his service any argument that accidentally comes into his mind on the impulse of the moment, regardless of whether it is logical or not, or whether it is in accord with the argument he presented a few moments before. He has given an example of that tonight. In my judgment the argument which he gives on one side and then on another makes his testimony of very little value to the country.


Mr. HENDERSON.: From what I have heard of the operations of this company in [DOT]this House and in another place, flhere does seem to be something very remarkable about it. The minister tells us that out of 3,500,000 acres of land, those who constructed the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway, now operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, had the opportunity of selecting 800,000 acres. After the selection of that quantity, there would still be 2,100,000 acres. I understand that the Saskatchewan Land Company purchased from tne government 250,000 acres at the miserably low price of one dollar an acre, and that they did not get the poorest land, but had the privilege of selecting the 250,;-000 acres out of half a million acres. Is it likely that these shrewd American speculators, who went up there and pulled the wool over the minister's eyes and got such a bargain, were going to take the poorest land, when the fact is that they were getting selected land ? It has not yet been explained to me. why the government would allow an American company to go into a tract of land of 500.000 acres and pick out
250,000	acres of the best land they could get, and then hand it over to them for a dollar an acre, and receive payment in scrip, which, as the hon. gentleman for Marquette Says, possibly did not cost them more than fifty cents on the dollar. It looks to me like a huge job. In the first place, I do not think the Minister of the Interior should have the pow)er to sell the lands of that . western Mr. SPROULE.
country to any company at a dollar an acre. In my ignorance I thought it was the policy of the Liberal party to keep the laud for the settler. We heard that years ago ; but when these gentlemen get into power, it is the land for the speculator, and at Hie miserably low price of a dollar an acre, while the settler has to pay $5, $6 and1 $7 an acre for it. Well, this is not the first time that the Liberals have abandoned the policy they preached all over the country. It is only a sample case, but to my mind it is one of the dirtiest samples ever exposed in this House.


Clifford Sifton: I want to correct a remark I made a moment ago. When speaking of Fne sale of lands to the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway Company, I said that the price was $1.75 an acre. It was $1.53 an acre.


Mr.  W. .T. ROCHE@: Now that the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has indulged his monomaniac propensity to have his periodical fling at the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier), that being evidently the object for which he rose to his feet, I would like to ask the minister if Mr. Pierce is still inspector of surveys ?


Clifford Sifton: No.


William James Roche: Have any surveys been conducted in the Peace River country in the past year ?


Clifford Sifton: There have been some block outline surveys, and one small tract has been subdivided.
Dominion lands, chargeable to income-commissioner's salary, $3,200.


William James Roche: There is an increase there.


Clifford Sifton: There has been a general increase in the salaries of the civil servants, and this is not as large proportionately . as the increases of other officials.


Mr.  W. .T. ROCHE@: There is a new official.


Clifford Sifton: Yes, J. W. Greenway, formerly inspector of school lands.
Dominion lands-superintendent of mines, $3,000.


William James Roche: What are the duties of. ths superintendent of mines


Clifford Sifton: The superintendent of mines during the last year has been engaged largely in the development of the system of examining ore deposits by the Swedish method. He published a work on that subject last year in order that mining institutes might post themselves on the matter. The hon. gentleman knows that there are vast deposits of iron in Canada. The work has been very highly commended by scientific mining bodies all over the world. Latterly

I appointed him to go to Europe at t'he head of a commission for the purpose of investigating the process of melting by electricity, and his report on that subject 'will be issued in the course of a week.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: Is the Department of the Superintendent of Mines established by statute ?


Clifford Sifton: The office was created by statute many years ago.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I notice in last year's ' Hansard ' that the Prime Minister said, in reference to the superintendent of mining :
There is no doubt that with this amount of money voted by parliament the government has perfect authority to create such a work, but it will last only one year. Unless it is provided next year it will lapse, ipso facto ; it cannot be continued from year to year as it could if it were established by statute.


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend is referring to a special vote for the superintendent of mines. The office was established years ago by statute. In the actual organization, we have not got the accommodation for the work he is carrying on, which is very largely laboratory work and requires scientific apparatus.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many men has he under him ?


Clifford Sifton: He brings in specialists from time to time. We had to secure an electrical expert from Peterborough and a metallurgical expert from England to assist the investigations in Europe.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is not the position of superintendent of mines a provisional position, or has the Dominion mines of its own which require a superintendent ?


Clifford Sifton: We have the direct supervision of the mining territory upon Dominion lands, but the office he holds is for the purpose of carrying on investigations of a general character.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I would like to ask how it comes that Dr. Bell has not been gazetted as the head of the geological survey ? He has filled the position now four years and deserves every consideration, and I think some explanation should be given why he has not been permanently appointed. He is only receiving a salary of $2,400.


Clifford Sifton: I am responsible for making the appointment and am not prepared to recommend Dr. Bell. I have personally very kindly feelings towards him. He is the senior officer of the survey, and I appointed him the acting head in the hope that I would be able to make his position permanent but have not been able to do so. I prefer not to make any statement further than this, and my hon. friend will know that the question of the qualifications of
scientific men is a very difficult one for anybody who is not an expart himself.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: If Dr. Bell is not fitted for the position, how comes it he has been kept in it for four years ?


Clifford Sifton: I have had the reorganization of the department in contemplation for the past two or three years, and next year hope to be able to complete it, but so far have not been in a position to do so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Who is the superintendent of mines ?


Clifford Sifton: Dr. Haanel.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What was the result of his trip to Germany about the use of electricity in smelting ore ?


Clifford Sifton: The report will be ready for the printer in a couple of weeks, and I shall have much pleasure in sending a copy to each member of the House. I could not state satisfactorily in a few words the results of his report. If I entered into very full details, I might say something which might be misleading. The reason of the delay in getting out the report is because we only received the report of the metallurgical expert from England, who was appointed to examine into and make an analysis of the different processes of manufacture of steel, a short time ago.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can the hon. minister not say in a general way whether the process is a success or a failure ?


Clifford Sifton: Speaking generally, it may be said that the report is encouraging and will demonstrate that given satisfactory qualities of ore and reasonably cheap power, electric smelting can be carried on successfully in some parts of Canada.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is not much enlightenment in that. Given fairly good quality of ore and plenty of heat, you can smelt the ore. That follows as a matter of course. What experience has Dr. Haanel had to justify his being regarded as an expert in that line ?


Clifford Sifton: He has the experience of a practical chemist and practical electrician.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where did he gain his experience ?


Clifford Sifton: In a German university.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: My information is that his only experience has been gained in study at the university. It is one thing to study and another to apply the theories you have learned at a university. It requires years of practical experience to make an expert.


Clifford Sifton: Of course, the government cannot have experts in every line. All the government can look for is a man who has

more or less general attainments, and when any special questions come up, he engages specialists from time to time. We have had an expert electrician from the Canadian General Electric Works at Peterborough, and a metallurgist from England recommended by competent authorities there. No government could keep in its employ men who were specialists in the different branches, with regard to which inquiry from time to time may have to be made. All we can do is engage specialists as they are required. At present we are contemplating making an inquiry into zinc in British Columbia, and we shall have to engage a man who is a zinc expert. What we want for a superintendent is not a man who is in the ordinary sense a specialist in any particular branch, but, a man of general scientific education, who will be able to direct particular inquiries.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would not regard such a man as an expert at all. An expert is a man who has acquired special knowledge of a subject by the experience of a long time, and who puts that knowledge into practice. I am informed that Dr. Haanel is only a very commonplace man in his line, and was regarded in every line of life as rather a failure. But he is trotted out as an expert and is given a salary as an expert, being placed over the heads of other men in his line. I am informed that among other occupations he was in the ministerial line, but whether he was a success or not in that line I do not know. I do not think that this man will impress the intelligent people of the world.


Clifford Sifton: When he was appointed he was professor of physics in Cornell University at Syracuse.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: X would like to say a few words on behalf of Dr. Bell. I certainly am surprised to hear that he is not likely to receive the appointment of the Director of the Geological Survey. For forty-eight years Dr. Bell has been travelling throughout this country gaining information, and certainly he is a fountain of information with reference to the mines and topographical work of this country. He undoubtedly deserves the greatest credit from the people of this country. I have read his reports for years, and when we consider the efforts he has put forth on behalf of the people of this country in developing their mines, their woodlands and their agricultural lands, I am sure there is not a man in the House but will feel sore when he realizes that Dr. Bell is to accept a position secondary to any man in this country. He has crept up step by step until be is one of the most eminent geologists in the world, I may say. to-day. It seems that a geeat injustice must have been done him, when we realize that he has been dragged along, year after year filling the position of Director or the Geological Survey of this country ably and Mr. SIFTON.
well. If he had not filled it properly, why was the position not filled by some one who was capable of doing so ? Now, at his time of life, after the efforts and labours he has put forth on behalf of this country, I ,say it is a shame and a disgrace that a man holding the position that he does in the scientific world, possessing his ability, should have to accept a secondary position.
Mr. iSIFTON. Does my hon. friend know that when his friends were in office Dr. Bell had been in the Geological Survey for over thirty years, and yet his friends appointed a young man over his head as Director of the Survey, a young man who had been only comparatively a few years in the service ? My hon. friend must know that while we all respect age and experience, something else besides age and experience is required. My hon. friend must remember when he comes to pass judgment in matters of this kind, that I have had better opportunities of understanding the situation than he has had. My hon. friend has had no experience in the administration of the department, but he must realize that after administering the department for several years and being! brought into daily contact with the details of Its operation, I am in a fairly good position to express an opinion in regard to such a matter, and that I could not possibly be animated by any other motive than a desire to do what would be fair to Dr. Bell. Nothing would be more pleasant to me than to appoint Dr. Bell, but the most pleasant thing is not always the most satisfactory thing. If I felt I could appoint Dr. Bell 1 would do so. My hon. friend must give me ci*edlt .for believing that the conclusion at which I have arrived is based on the facts that have been brought to my attention.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Might it not be fair to Dr. Bell to suggest what there is lacking in the man that he is not capable of carrying on the work of the department ? I feel the position keenly, because I have known Dr. Bell, through his work, for many, many years, and realize that he has been a most valuable man to this country.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What position does Dr Bell occupy in the department, and what is his salary ?


Clifford Sifton: He is acting Director. He has filled that position since Dr. Dawson died about three years ago.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long has he been in the department ?


Clifford Sifton: He has been forty years in the Geological Survey.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What salary does he get now ?


Clifford Sifton: $3,200, I think.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I think it is only $2,300 now, and that he has not even had the statutory increases the last two years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has lie reached the maximum of his class, and what class is he in ?


Clifford Sifton: Officers of the Geological Survey are called technical officers, and their salaries are especially voted every year. At the time Dr. Bell was appointed acting Director he was getting $2,400 ; I am not sure whether he is now getting $3,200 or not, hut I think so. Of course, we are not now passing Geological Survey items, and I have not the papers under my hand. When we come to the items of the Geological Survey, I will he able to tell my hon. friend.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What salary was Dr. Dawson getting at the time of his death ?


Clifford Sifton: 


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Has Dr. Bell been getting that salary while performing the duties since Dr. Dawson's death ?


Clifford Sifton: During the first two years he did not receive the full salary, and I remember that the reason why he did not was that the question had come up upon various occasions as to whether officers ot the government filling higher positions temporarily should receive the salaries of the officers for whom they were acting. I sent it before the council for the purpose of being discussed, and that was the decision that was arrived at.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What class is Dr. Bell in at the present time? The minister's statement is very indefinite regarding the salary. He says he thinks he gets $3,200.


Clifford Sifton: He is not in any class. The officers of the Geological Survey are not classified as are the officers of the civil service. They are rated as technical officials and their salaries are specially voted.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the Auditor General's Report he appears to get $2,400.


Clifford Sifton: I said the salary of the director was $3,200. The question whether Dr. Bell was to get the salary of a director was up on one occasion and it was decided that he should not. I do not remember whether be has been getting it this last year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is quite clear that he has not. By the Auditor General's Report he has been getting $2,400. It would be interesting to know why he has not been getting more. Ever since his predecessor died I suppose he has been getting the same salary. The statutory increase, I presume, would not apply to him, if he does not come under the Civil Service Act, though as a technical officer, he would be eligible for the statutory increase there as well. It would be interesting to know when his salary was increased, and to what extent, during the past few years. I have heard it said that he gets a much smaller salary in proportion than others who are doing equally valuable work, and that in addition be is not a permanent appointment, that some one else might be put over his head at any time. I assume from what the minister says that he is not likely to appoint him. It appears that he has been in the service for 48 years.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I must say that a salary of $2,400 for an officer who has been 48 years in tbe service of the government, affords little encouragement to men of talent and scientific ability to engage in the service of the government.


Clifford Sifton: I am not responsible for the scale of salaries in the Geological Survey.
I do not think the hon. gentleman ought to ask me, in the case of a gentleman who has occupied the position of a scientific man in that department for the last 40 years, why I do not think lie is a desirable man to put at the head of that department. I think he is a very respectable gentleman, and performs valuable public service, but if I remain in office and endeavour' to put the Geological Survey on a much more useful basis, I do not think he is a good man for the position and would not recommend him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the minister to infer in his answer to the hon. member for Lambton that he was not a suitable man for tbe position. Then we have the fact that the minister brings in a new man who has had no experience at all, and gives him $3,000 a year, Dr. Haanel, without any experience, and no other qualification as disclosed to us except that he was a schoolmate of the minister when they were at college. Now it does seem to me that this is the old story tbat kissing goes by favour. The minister puts a friend of his in a high position, without any knowledge upon which to base his judgment; he puts him into this position, and gives him a salary over and above a man who has rendered faithful service for 48 years, and whose education so far as we krnvw bas been all that a man should require to make him an expert. In addition to that, he has had training and experience for that length of time, yet a new man is brought in without any experience at all, and put over him and given a larger salary.
Mi-. SIFTON. No new man is put over him at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Because Dr. Haanel is given a higher salary, therefore .lie must have a higher position.


Clifford Sifton: Dr. Haanel has nothing to do with the Geological Survey at all. His duties are connected solely with metallurgy.
Salaries of inspectors, Dominion lands and Crown timber agents, sub-agents and clerks in the outside service, $121,700.


William James Roche: 
Clifford Sifton: I v^is speaking of a general increase in salaries under the amended Civil Service Act. We have made some increases for officials who were not affected by that amended Act, not as a result of or by the action of that amendment, but because of the fact that the salaries ought to he somewhat Increased. A certain scale of increase was provided for those who were affected by the Act. Rut I had no reference to officials Of the class my hon. friend refers to in the outside service. I have an impression that the gentleman my hon. friend refers to is a very old man.


William James Roche: He is old, but he is very active.


Clifford Sifton: My impression was that he is an old man, and that the clerk did most of the work. If my hon. friend thinks, he is deserving I am quite prepared to consider it. He has 'had the same salary for a long time.


William James Roche: The clerk's salary was increased from $780 to $1,000, but the head of the office, Mr. Flesher, remains at the same salary. Mr. Flesher is a very active man. He is up in years but he never misses a day from his office. He does the greater portion of the work notwithstanding that the clerk is much younger. I am not complaining that the salary of the clerk was increased but I consider that if his salary was increased Mr. Flesher is entitled to have his increased as well. .


Clifford Sifton: I will look into it.


William James Roche: In view of the fact that before another session we will be in the throes of an election campaign, I think the hon. minister will be aggrieved to hear that some of his officials, inspectors, Ac., have been taking a very active part politically.


Clifford Sifton: When ?


William James Roche: They are doing it at the present time.
Mr. SIFTON Will the hon. gentleman specify ?


William James Roche: Yes. A year ago a question in regard to civil servants taking Mr. SIFTON.
part in elections in Manitoba came up for discussion in this House when the hon. minister wras not present. I brought to the attention of the House the specific case of Mr. Thos. Young, homestead inspector at Dauphin. His case was one which the right hon. Prime Minister stated came within the rule which he had laid down. The right hon. gentleman stated that if he accepted the nomination of the Liberal party for the Manitoba legislature he would cease to be an employee of the Dominion government. Mr. Thos. Young at that time did accept the nomination on behalf of the Liberal party. I pointed out to the House that I felt confident what was going to be the result, that Mr. Young was being allowed to retire temporarily during the campaign and that when the campaign was over and the elections consigned him to private life again he would be appointed to his position. I tried to get some specific declaration from the acting minister as to whether that procedure would be followed or not. The reason I was so sceptical in regard to the action that the government would take was that the same thing happened in my own constituency where my opponent in the last election who had been homestead inspector was allowed to resign to take part in the contest and who, after being defeated, was reappointed to his position. I instanced that as an illustration that most likely that procedure would be followed in the case of Mr. Young. On the 6lh of April in this House I asked the hon. minister the following question ?
1. Did (Mr. Thos. Young, homestead inspector, Manitoba, resign his position during the year 1903 ?
The reply was :
Yes.
The second question was :
If so, what was the date of his resignation ?
The answer was :
12th July, 1903.
I may say that that was the very day upon which I was personally present at a political meeting where Mr. Thos. Young had spoken from the same platform as I myself had been speaking from. Yet, he resigned on the 12th July. The third question was :
Was Mr. Young a candidate at the provincial elections in Manitoba last July ?
This is the very innocent answer which the hon. gentleman gave :
The department has no information on this point. He was reported in the press as being a candidate.
I think the hon. minister is not nearly so innocent as he would imply by that answer, because I read Mr. Thos. Young's acceptance of the nomination last year. That

ought to be official enough. So official was it that the right hon. Prime Minister recognized this ease as coming within the rule laid down and as constituting an infringement of a civil servant's proper duties and declared that he should be asked to retire. The fourth question was :
Is Mr. Young now in the employ of the government ? If so, in what capacity ; what is the date of his appointment, and the amount of his salary ?
The answer was :
Yes, Mr. Young is now employed as forest ranger for northwestern Manitoba. He was appointed on the 9th November, 1903, at $125 per month.
So that, the very thing that I predicted would happen, did come to pass. Not only was Mr. Thos. Young reappointed, but he was reappointed at an increased salary to soothe his wounded feelings for having been defeated in the previous contest. He had been prior to the time he resigned in receipt of a salary of $100 a month and he was reappointed at the rate of $125 a month no doubt to recompense him for the loss of time consequent upon the campaign. [DOT]


Thomas Walter Scott: He had had more experience.


William James Roche: Yes, he was a sadder and a wiser man. This same Mr. Thos. Young to-day is a most active politician and no person in that part of the country be he Liberal or Conservative, will say anything to the contrary. But, Mr. Thos. Young is not the only one. There is a gentleman named Yeo, a land agent in the Emerson district whose particular duty seems to be to look after the Galicians. Mr. Yeo was the party who was put in charge of bringing the Galicians out last y*ear to register. They were not then qualified to register. He brought them out a month ago to register.


Clifford Sifton: He is a sub-land agent. The men whd are appointed as sub-land agents are given small salaries, are not supposed to devote their whole time to the service and are not therefore in the ordinary sense government agents.


William James Roche: It appears that the hon. gentleman discriminates according to the amount of salary his officers get.


Clifford Sifton: He only gets $25 a month.


William James Roche: There is another official, Mr Harvey. I think he is supposed to be an interpreter. Would the hon. gentleman inform us what Mr. Harvey's duties are supposed to be ?


Clifford Sifton: My deputy informs me he is an interpreter at Winnipeg.


William James Roche: What is his particular duty ?


Mr SIFTON.: He is in the immigration service.


William James Roche: What does he do ? Does he accompany parties of foreigners around and interpret V


Clifford Sifton: The interpreters are there for the purpose of being in communication with foreign settlers when they come in. He interprets for the foreign settlers when they come in and he is also sent out with settlers to assist them in making locations.


William James Roche: He accompanies foreigners to their new locations. I wish to direct the hon. minister's attention to the fact that Mr. Harvey has been during the past two or three months devoting his time and attention to my humble self.


Clifford Sifton: What has he been doing?


William James Roche: He is acting as interpreter for the Liberal candidate in his canvass. I do not know whether it comes within the scope of his duties or not but it is a notorious fact that Mr. Harvey has accompanied from house to house Mr. S. L. Head, the Liberal candidate for Marquette interpreting for the Galicians. I do not thiiik it is the duty of this gentleman to accompany any candidate, Grit or Tory because he is paid by Conservative money as well as Liberal money and I do not think the hon. Minister of the Interior will defend any such action on his part. I have not the slightest doubt that when I draw the attention of the hon. minister to his conduct he will have this gentleman summarily dismissed, because we know that other officials have been dismissed upon the representations made by hon. members of this House. I can assure him that what I am telling him is a fact because' if it were not a fact I would be the last one to say so. The fact is that he has been accompanying the Liberal candidate from House to House, in the Galician settlement acting as interpreter and one old Galician in his quaint way, describing his actions and manners afterwards, said that he put him in mind of a man spreading butter very thickly on bread. I wish to draw the hon. minister's attention to this fact and I am sure that he will have this gentleman's conduct inquired into. I do not ask that this gentleman- shall be decapitated without being given an opportunity to present his defence.


Clifford Sifton: I will not undertake to dispute what my hon. friend says. It certainly is not the business of an official of the immigration department to travel around with any candidate or to act as an interpreter for him. I cannot say that I have in my mind the names of all the officials of the service and I was not aware that a man by the name of Harvey was there. My deputy informs me that lie is an interpreter. This is the first I have heard of the matter to which my hon. friend refers and I will

give instructions to have the matter investigated. The instructions will [DOT] be not only to him but to other officials in the service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would hardly be expected that the minister would remember the names because their names are legion.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. I may point out that all the Conservative members in Manitoba would appear to have had their own experience with regard to this state of things. There was a Liberal convention in my riding last fall when the election was expected, and several aspiring Liberal candidates appeared on the scene. It is said, that at the convention, a government official who was one of the scrutineers worked the thing in such a way, that he turned the wheel in favour of the candidate who did not have a majority of the votes.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: He switched.
Mr. LaRIYIERE. I may say that two of the aspiring Liberal candidates were government officials. One was an old official who has been in and out of the local legislature, and who when out of the legislature is a regular official of the government, and when in the legislature is paid by the day. This official had his name on the list of candidates presented at the convention, but the wheel of fortune was turned over to an official of the Public Works Department, and who is now supposed to be the Liberal candidate. Candidate No. 1 was dissatisfied and complained that he had been robbed of the convention, and so the fortunate candidate had to come down to Ottawa to complain that his brother official was interfering with his chances of election. The unlucky candidate was called down to Ottawa and the Deputy Minister of the Interior made him an offer to go to France on an immigration mission, so that he might be away during election time and not hamper his Liberal friend. This official did go to France but no election took place, and the other candidate has had to resume his work in the Public Works Department. The aspiring candidate who had been robbed of the convention had to come back from France and he had to cable and cable for money to enable him to do so. The government it would appear did not want to see him again, but at all events after very considerable delay he managed to get enough money to take him to his home. He has now resumed his duties in the Dominion Lands Department in Winnipeg as an inspector of something, and we are awaiting the election. I might say that at that convention held by the Liberals of St. Boniface-as a matter of fact there were three conventions but I refer to the last-there were no less than twenty officials of the Dominion government attending the convention to select a candidate to oppose me and to try to defeat me at the coining election.


Clifford Sifton: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: They have a big contract on hand.


Mr. BOYD.: The Minister of the Interior and some of his supporters seem to look upon this as rather amusing, judging from their smiles, but if they had been here from 1893 to 1896 and had listened to the castigation handed out to the Conservative government if an official interfered remotely in an election (not to speak of the flagrant interference of the present officials of the Interior Department), these hon. members would have a different smile upon their faces from what we see to-night. We all remember that last session we brought to the attention of the government the fact that a number of the officials of the Interior Department were taking a very active part in the local elections, that they were in fact Liberal candidates, and we predicted that after their defeat they would resume their positions. That prediction has been verified. As the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Roche) has forcibly drawn to the attention of the minister, his officials are again taking a prominent part in the political struggle. It is most unfair to permit these officials who receive their pay from the country as a whole, to participate in political contests. I am surprised that the Minister of Interior, who when he is at home gets the credit of going into the fight fairly and fearlessly, should allow such underhand conduct as this. It has been said that he could not get Liberal candidates unless he looked for them in the ranks of his officials, but I venture to think that if he paused and thought about it a little, he would put an end to this indecent state of things. It is now said that three or four of the Liberal candidates in the field are identified with the Saskatchewan Land Company, beginning with Mr. MacKenzie up in Alberta and going along to Mr. Dawson and Mr. Turriff and right down pretty nearly along the whole line, that is the rumour: the minister may not hear it but it is talked about and even written about in the newspapers. If the, minister did his duty, or had any desire to see fair play he would put a stop to these officials interfering in politics.


William James Roche: Before this item passes, there is a matter I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister of the Interior in reference to a dispute between certain sections of the Galician people in township 18 range 3. I will state the circumstances so that the minister may take them into consideration. It appears that three years ago Father Philas. head of the Order of Basilians in Manitoba 'and the Northwest Territories, made application for a homestead entry of legal subdivision 16 of section 27, township 18, range 3 east. The application was made for the Greek Catholic church and $10 entry fee wras paid. A receipt was given for the entry fee and the entry was made in the books of the

Dominion Lands Office. The Greek Catholics then proceeded to build a church on the property which cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $500, and at a meeting of the Greek Catholics of that district five trustees were elected to look after the property on behalf of the congregation. Everything went along all right until about "a year ago, when some priests of the Independent Greek Church-another branch of the Greek Church-went into the district and succeeded in getting two of the trustees to leave the Greek Catholic Church and come over to the Independent Church. They then formed a congregation known as the Greek Independent Church and took forcible possession of the church which the Greek Catholics had erected. When the Greek Catho-olics found that two of their trustees had deserted and gone over to the enemy, they held another meeting and elected two other trustees to till their places. The five trustees of the Greek Catholic Church then caused the church to be locked, but the Independent Greek Church Congregation or some one acting on their behalf, forced the lock and took possession. Matters have been going on in this way ever since, and Father Phi-las went to the Dominion Lands Office and made a complaint against the action of the Independent Greek Church, and he was promised that matters would be investigated. He called at the land office in Winnipeg a few days ago, and was informed that a Mr. Foley, one of the homestead inspectors had been sent out to the district to investigate, and had sent in a report on the basis of which the department had decided to issue a patent to the Independent Greek Church trustees.
The Greek Catholic trustees were not notified that Mr. Foley was going out into that district, and they were therefore not consulted by him while he was out there. If the state of affairs is as represented to me -and I have every reason to believe it is, for I have been informed by Father Filas himself-it seems to have been a very highhanded proceeding on the part of the government to act on the report of one of their officials who only consulted one side of the arrangement, and did not consult those who contributed their money to build the church. I would ask the minister to investigate the case at the earliest possible moment.


Clifford Sifton: I do not know the circumstances of the case, but it is of sufficient importance to warrant us in finding out what both parties have to say, and I will have It investigated.
Salaries of extra clerks at head office and advertising, including $5,000 for extra service in connection with Dominion lands, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $38,500.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Does this advertising include the advertising of land regulations and mining regulations ?


Clifford Sifton: Not altogether.


William James Roche: What is the increase of $11,000 for ?


Clifford Sifton: The details of the increase are as follows :	In connection with the
Dominion Lands Branch there have been eighteen additional appointments of the writer class, whose salaries altogether amount to $10,175 ; there are statutory increases for two clerks, amounting to $105 ; there have been Increases in the salaries of clerks and messengers under the provisions of the amendment of the Civil Service Act of last year, amounting altogether to $3,860 ; and there is an increase in the amount for advertising and printing of $3,100 making a total of $17,000 odd. There have been decreases by the appointment of four clerks of the temporary staff, paid out of this vote, to the permanent staff as junior second-class clerks. Two temporary clerks have been made permanent. Four clerks have been transferred from this to another branch. One has resigned from the service, which makes a saving of about $6,000 or a net increase of $11,000 in the vote.
Dominion Lands-protection of timber lands in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, and tree culture in the Northwest Territories, $40,000.


William James Roche: What are the regulations regarding portable saw-mills ? I understand that, as they are enforced ii* the Dominion reserves at Dauphin, farmers are not permitted to have portable saw-mills set up within the reserve, and must haul their logs some miles to have them sawn. 'They object to that seriously.


Clifford Sifton: The farmers are not supposed to have portable saw-mills. My hon. friend knows the practice better than I do. The practice followed Is this. People set up portable saw-mills for the farmers who get permission to take out logs for their houses.
X have a fairly good idea that what is being done is perhaps not altogether within the spirit of the regulations, but the net result is that the new settlers are getting their timber for building purposes the cheapest way they can, and I do not think that public policy requires the practice to be interfered with. As a matter of fact, the regulations do not contemplate the farmers setting up portable saw-mills. They are supposed to take out a certain number of logs for the purpose of building their bouses and not more.


William James Roche: Are they not permitted to saw logs to build a frame house ?


Clifford Sifton: A man would not likely set up a portable saw-mill just to cut up logs for one house. A number of people club together and a portable saw-mill is set up.


William James Roche: Suppose a number of people club together and have one port-



able saw-mill set up by one of the farmers who saws for all the rest, what is the objection ? The hon. gentleman has his officials to see that they do not cut up the logs for sale. Is it not a fact that some of those timber reserve lands were surveyed a few years ago ? Have none of the timber reserves been sub-divided ?


Clifford Sifton: Not so far as I know.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What has 'been done with regard to tree culture ? Who is doing that work ?


Clifford Sifton: It is being done on the plan I explained to the House during the last two or three years, under the supervision *of Mr. Stewart. The free distribution of frees in Manitoba is not being carried on to as great an extent as heretofore. Private individuals are now going into the business of furnishing seedlings, and in a short time the free distribution may cease. In the Territories, however, it is necessary to continue it on a large scale. If my hon. friend would take the trouble to look up the report of the chief of the forestry branch, he will see what is being done. For the year 1904, in the province of Manitoba, 1,200,000 young trees were furnished, and in the Territories 500,000, so that for this year 1,700,000 have been furnished.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought these were furnished by the experimental farms.


Clifford Sifton: We raised some of them on the experimental farms. At Indian Head we have purchased a small plot of ground, upon which we intend to raise seedlings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where did you get the million of trees planted out ?


Clifford Sifton: We raised them from the seed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood that the work was being done by the experimental farm. We have money voted for the purposes of that farm, why put an item in here to duplicate the same work ?


Clifford Sifton: We raise the seedlings on the experimental farms.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where have you plantations outside the experimental farm ?
Mi-. SIFTON. We have 160 acres at Indian Head, which are not upon the experimental farm, but a particular place set apart for the purpose of raising seedlings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that the only place ?


Clifford Sifton: Yes, outside the farm.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much of this money is intended for that work ?


Clifford Sifton: This is the total vote for the whole service. The expenses in connection with the shrubbery are set down in the superintendent's estimate as $3,405, paid out of this vote.
Mr. W- J. ROCHE.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have never understood that thei-e was any tree culture outside of the experimental farm, and that the seed sown there was given out to the farmers generally. I cannot understand why yon have an item here for that purpose. I cannot understand why we would require an item here for that purpose when we vote money enough to carry on the work of the farm.
, Mr. SIFTON. This is a special branch. The work might have been carried on by the Department of Agriculture as a part of its work, hut it was determined to do it in my department. The cost is the same ; if the Minister of Agriculture were doing it he would have to ask so much more money than he does. There is a small plot of land at the experimental farm of which our men are making use.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is another instance c|f that duplicating which is done and it would seem that sometimes the object of it is to provide work for some one.


Clifford Sifton: The farm is not doing this work at all.
Mr. SPROULE-"Then- wliat are they spending the money for ?


Clifford Sifton: This is not an appropriation for the experimental farm ; it is an appropriation for the forestry branch ; the officers of the forestry branch make use of a small amount of land on the farms to do this work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You employ a Mr. Stewart as timber inspector or something of that kind and now Mr. Stewart is starting to scratch up little patches on the-experimental farm and sow seeds. At the same time we have a staff at the experimental farm who are doing that work. Tire same thing prevails in other lines, as for example, in the case of the chicken fattening stations, some of which are apparently started simply to give a little patronage to friends, but there are very little returns from them. If we want to go Into the cultivation of trees in connection with the farm or not, do it at one place in the Territories.


Clifford Sifton: That is exactly what we are doing. We started this work at the farm because that was the most convenient way pf doing it and we wanted to get on with the work, and as the result of our experience we have established a small place in the neighbourhood of Indian Head where we Intend to carry on the work exclusively.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This item is so worked that we are not able to judge of tlie different purposes for which it is intended. Where is Mr. Stewart located permanently?


Clifford Sifton: Here.
7073	JULY 19, 1904	.	7074


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If Mr. Stewart has his headquarters here is he more likely to be successful in carrying on tree planting at Indian Head, than a man in charge of the farm there who has been doing the work lor years ? How much of this vote is used for fire protection and how much for tree planting ?


Clifford Sifton: The items are as follows :
*Salaries, officers and assistants :-
Superintendent	$2,500
Assistant superintendent	 1,200
Inspector	 1,000
Clerk	 520
Manager Indian Head nursery	 900
Supervisor	   1,000
A. P. Stevenson, supervisor of tree planting in Manitoba, ten months with
team at $100 per month	 1,000
Four additional agents during summer
months for inspection work	 2,000
Foreman of Brandon nursery,	6 months. 380
Freight and express charges on plant material, including cost of deivery of trees and seeds to applicants in all
parts of the country	 1,000
Cost of growing and purchasing plant
material. This includes wages of men employed in the nurseries and in gathering seed and also cost of trees
purchased outside	 4,500
Travelling expenses for all officers of branch. This includes expenses of superintendent, assistant superintendent, inspector and four additional agents for tree planting and about
twenty fire rangers	 5,000
Printing and stationery, including fire notices on parchment paper, copies of fire Acts, instructions to tree planters, forestry circulars and bulletins,
&c	   4,000
Building fire guards	 1,500
For purchase of books for use in office; subscriptions to periodicals on forestry, &c	 500
Proposed report from Dr. C. A. Schenck,
(the eminent expert on forestry, an amount which may or may not be
expended)	 500
For purchase of implements, &c., for
new forest nursery station	 500
For inspection and assistance in tree
planting in older provinces	 1,000
Pay of forest fire rangers and inspection of timber lands :
In Railway belt British Columba.. .. 5,000
" North Saskatchewan district		2,000
" Riding Duck and Porcupine Mountains	   2,000
" Foothills of the Rocky Mountains.. 1,000 " Moose Mountain timber reserve.. 500 " Turtle Mountain timber reserve.. 500 " Eastern Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg district	 1,000
Altogether $40,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That does not give any information ; this item refers only to Manitoba and the Northwest Territories.


Clifford Sifton: It should include British Columbia.
225J


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In addition to that the minister has it all mixed up, part of it for fire protection, part of it for tree culture, part of it for farms and part of it for other lines, so that we are as much in the dark as ever. We should not have them all put together so that we cannot ascertain what is being spent on these different items in order that we may judge whether the criticism is what it should be or not.. If we had the work that took place on the farm and the number of officers employed, we would be in a better position to judge intelligently of this expenditure, but it is all jumbled up, two or t'kree things together and we cannot separate it so that it can be properly analysed. I think that ought to be done for the benefit of the House.


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend will note that I gave the figures of the $12,000 for the payment of four fire rangers in respect of Dominion lands.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is all the rest of that for tree culture ?


Clifford Sifton: Substantially, yes. It includes the salaries of officers who take charge of this fire protection.
Miscellaneous-maintenance, construction of roads, bridges and other necessary -works in connection with the Hot Springs Reservation near Banff Station, Northwest Territories, $27,020.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there anything in the report of the Interior Department showing what is being done from year to year at Banff ?


Clifford Sifton: There is a report every year to the head of the department which show's what has been done, it is printed in the departmental report. This vote is required for payment of salaries, caretakers, repairs for roads, bridge over the river, purchase of animals, new roads, clearing land. The report of the superintendent is found on page 25 of last year's departmental report.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Under whose supervision is this work done, or is it done by day labour ?


Clifford Sifton: Most of it is done by day work under the supervision of the superintendent. The museum that wras put up a year ago wras of course built by contract, but nearly all the work of building bridges and repairing roads is done by day labour. That is found to be the cheaper and more satisfactory way of doing it. If my hon. friend has had the pleasure of visiting the park he has found that some of the best road-making done in Canada has been done in that part. The superintendent has done marvellously good work for the amount of money at his disposal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What kind of animals do you intend to buy ?


Clifford Sifton: We have bought goats, bulls, four or five elks. The superintendent has been endeavouring to get specimens of the mountain sheep. He has been trying to get a couple of buffalos from the far north within the past two or three years, but he has not succeeded yet, and I have practically given up further attempts. The report shows that at the present time we have forty buffalos, eight elk. four deer, fourteen angora goats, besides moose and some other animals. Three buffalos were presented by Mr. T. G. Blackstock, of Toronto, and fifteen or sixteen were presented to the government by Lord Strathcona. The others have been bought from time to time within the last five or six years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are voting an item to be used the present year, and I think we voted the same item last year.


Clifford Sifton: We take this estimate so that the superintendent may have the money in case he desires to use it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much of that vote last year was spent for the purpose of buying animals ?


Clifford Sifton: The Auditor General's Report of last year only shows an expenditure of $79.50.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was it for the purpose of supplying this park that the hon. gentleman got his hon. friend the Minister of Finance to put goats on the free list ?


Thomas Osborne Davis: They are going to Ontario.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They need not send goats to the Northwest. I ask the hon. minister where he got the goats ?


Clifford Sifton: They are a rather rare breed of goats.
Miscellaneous-construction of roads, bridle paths and other necessary works in connection with the Yoho park reserve and immediate vicinity, $10,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where is this park ?


Clifford Sifton: Yoho Park is a continuation of the Banff park. The Banff park runs up to the British Columbia line and in the railway belt, beyond the British Columbia line, we have set apart a park contiguous to the Rocky Mountain park. Yoho park contains magnificent natural scenery and some glaciers which are declared to be equal to the Alpine glaciers. The Canadian Pacific Railway have spent a considerable amount of money in sending in experts for the purpose of definitely locating the glaciers and we are building bridle paths so as to make them accessible to tourists. They are a very great attraction to tourists going through to the coast The Canadian Pacific Railway have taken a great interest in developing the tourist business. We have done what we Mr. SPROULE.
could to make the park attractive and accessible. This particular vote is for the construction of a road from Field to Taka-kaw Falls including two bridges across the Yoho river, $9,000 repairs to tote road, Field to Hector, $300 ; repairs from Field to Ottertail, $500 ; trail from Emerhld lake to Burgess Pass. $400; trail from Emerald lake to Glacier. $150 ;[DOT] extension natural bridge to Canyon, $100 ; a total of $10,450. We are asking for $10,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How is that work being done ? Have you another staff of men there and if so, how many of them ?


Clifford Sifton: No, there is no staff there. This is part of the other park. The difference is only in the name.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you not think it would be better to put the whole of it under one vote ? What object is there in dividing it up ?


Clifford Sifton: It is across the British Columbia line : that is all. What is known as the Rocky Mountain park is taken out of the Northwest Territories and is under the legislative jurisdiction of this Federal parliament. In British Columbia we own the park only as a private individual might own land. We own that much land there so there is a difference in the legal position in which we are placed. There would be no objection to calling it Banff park but at the time the park was established Yoho was suggested and it was given that name.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When you own the property, as a private individual would own it, why do you require to divide it up and have one item of $10,000 for this park and another item of $27,000 for the other park ?


Clifford Sifton: It is exactly the same as if we had it under one name.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Perhaps if you had one item it would be a larger vote than if you divided it up into two smaller items.


Clifford Sifton: The roads would cost the same.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The roads would cost the same but when we take up the Auditor General's Report to ascertain what expenditure has taken place to embellish this park you have to look under two different names to find it. Persons not familiar with the circumstances, not having heard the explanation of the minister, would not be likely to find out what the expenditure had been. They would look for Banff park and they would see the expenditure that had taken place there but they would not know that there is another park which is an addition to this same park.


Clifford Sifton: If my hon friend will bring in a Bill to put ft under one name I will' vote for it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
Clifford Sifton: Of this vote of $63,000, $43,000 is required, for the operations on the 49th parallel west of the Rocky Mountains. Including salaries of surveyors and assistants engaged thereon. This work is being carried on under the agreement between the British and United States governments. It will consist of running the line and cutting out a vista throughout, cutting the necessary trails, making a triangulation to measure the distances, making a topographic survey of the adjacent country, taking necessary astronomical and other observations, and the purchase and placing of monuments to replace the existing mounds of loose stones. The estimated running expenses of the parties are $24,000, the salaries of surveyors and their professional assistants $11,000, and the cost of monuments, $8,000. In connection with the astronomical work the salaries amount to $12,580, and in connection with field astronomical work the estimate is $3,500. This last amount is to cover the expenses of observers engaged in the determination of latitudes and longitudes in the eastern provinces. Then, there are travelling expenses amounting to $900, and books, stationery, *&e., $3,020, making a total of $63,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is for the boundary between our country and Alaska ?


Clifford Sifton: No, there is nothing here for that We will have a supplementary vote for that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where is this work being done ?


Clifford Sifton: This is for the actual surveying of the boundary, on the 49th parellel of British Columbia.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Between British Columbia and the United States ?


Clifford Sifton: It is very expensive because of the fact that it is in a mountainous country.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the position of the work at the present time ?


Clifford Sifton: I will be able to answer that to-morrow.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much was spent of last year's vote ?


Clifford Sifton: I think I am safe in saying it was all spent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is no information at all. I asked also how much of this work was done, and when it would be completed, and the minister could not answer that question either.


Clifford Sifton: I will have a statement prepared for my hon. friend to-morrow.
Miscellaneous-cost of litigation, $11,000.


William James Roche: At page L-57 of the Auditor General's Report I see an amount of $1,368.98 paid, to Howell, Mathers & Howell, which I believe is in connection with the litigation which took place on behalf of the municipalities of Argyle and Springdale regarding the school taxes. Would the minister explain what position that matter is now in ?


Clifford Sifton: It is in the Department of Justice, and I would prefer to let the Minister of Justice do that. I think he read a statement in the House last session showing what the legal result was. I will call the attention of the Minister of Justice to the matter, and ask him to make a statement.


William James Roche: Are these lands paying the school taxes ?


Clifford Sifton: I have no doubt the school taxes are being levied against them in pursuance of that decision. If they are not paid I suppose the local government would sell them for taxes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not think the government should allow lands set apart for schools to be sold for taxes.


Clifford Sifton: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) does not perhaps understand. A suit was instituted for the purpose of determining whether the Canadian Pacific Railway was liable to taxation by the local municipal authorities. One suit was taken with respect to Manitoba and another with respect to the Northwest Territories, because the conditions were supposed to be different. I do not want to be held responsible for the exact legal correctness of what I say, but I understand it was held that in the Territories the land was liable for school taxes, and in reply to my hon. friend (Mr. W. J. Roche) I said that under the local ordinances I presumed the school taxes were being levied, and if the taxes were not paid the lands could be sold.
Miscellaneous-maintenance of assay office, Vancouver, $13,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are you doing less work there, to account for this decrease ?

7080'


Clifford Sifton: The office was very much over-worked last year ; the work is not so great this year, and the expenses are less.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What staff have you, and their salaries ?


Clifford Sifton: The manager, $2,500 ; the assayer, $1,500 ; assistant assayer, $1,300 ; melter, $1,400 ; janitor, $950 ; and various other expenditures for supplies, &c.
Miscellaneous-engraving, lithographing and printing maps of Dominion and Northwest Territories, $15,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did you issue any new maps last year ?


Clifford Sifton: A new map of the Northwest Territories was issued four or five months ago, and I will send my hon. friend half a dozen copies if he wishes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to see them. Are you sending out any more new maps this year ?


Clifford Sifton: I make it a practice to send all these publications to the members, and I did not think about that one, or I would have issued instructions to send it out.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. minister intend to get out any new maps this season, and if so, of what districts ?


Clifford Sifton: We are carrying on the work of issuing new' sheets of different portions of the Dominion constantly, with new information. The particular vote for w'hieh I am asking is for four different sheets- one for the southwestern portion of Ontario, one for Quebec, one for New Brunswick, and one for southern British Columbia. This is in addition to reprinting some of the maps which we have with additional information up to date.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What are these maps intended to show-the geological deposits ?


Clifford Sifton: They are not geological maps. They are maps of Canada. I have no doubt my hon. friend got a copy of the map of Canada which we issued a short time ago.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It was a mere outline map. Maps which would be valuable would be maps showing the railways, the land sold and the land unsold, the land settled and the land unsettled. So far as I know, there is no map of that kind.


Clifford Sifton: The new map issued a year or so ago contained all the information which it was possible to put on a map. There was so much information on it that it had to be engraved on copper. A map showing where the land offices are and information of a similar kind would have to be published as a special map. It could not be put on a large map of the Dominion of Canada.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But yon are not getting out a large map of the Dominion of Canada. You are only getting out sectional maps.


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend will understand that the officers are perfecting the-geography of Canada, and are getting out a portion at a time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The information does not go far enough. I asked whether it was a railway map, a land map or a geological map, or whether it contained all this information ? We sometimes have inquiries for maps of this kind. Where, for instance, can I get a railway map of the Northwest or British Columbia ?


Clifford Sifton: My hon. friend can get a railway map by looking at the map of the Dominion of Canada which was issued last year.
Some resolutions reported.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: What work will be taken up to-morrow ?


William Stevens Fielding: The Minister of the Interior will continue his estimates, to be followed by the Minister of Agriculture.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What line will the Minister of the Interior take up to-morrow ?


William Stevens Fielding: Immigration.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman cannot take up immigration until the report is down and we have some little time to consider it. We have not got it yet.


Clifford Sifton: There is nothing in the report except the evidence taken before the committee, and the hon. gentleman has had that. There is no use of holding up the estimates until the. evidence is sent down by the committee.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are in this awkward dilemma, that the report is not before us, and we cannot discuss it until it is.


Mr. MACLEAN.: Can the Minister of Finance tell us whether the Minister of Justice intends to go on with his Railway Bill to-morrow ?	.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know.


Mr. TAYLOR.: As the Minister of Agriculture is not here, I give notice to the Minister of Finance that on the motion togo into Supply, I shall have something to say with reference to the report of the Department of Agriculture.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned' at 11.25 p.m.
[Stage Direction]

Wednesday, July 20, 1904.