1904-04-19

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill <No 65) respecting certain patents of Louis E. Curtis.-Mr. Wm. Ross (Ontario).
Bill (No. 66) respecting the Pacific Northern and Omineca Railway Company.-Mr. Morrison.
Bill (No. 67) respecting the Ontario Accident Insurance Company-Mr. A. T. Thompson.
Bill (No. 68) respecting the Hudson's Bay and Northwest Railway Company.-Mr. Oliver.
Bill (No. 69) to incorporate the Monarch Life Assurance Company-Mr. Osier.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: 

R. L. BORDEN.

[Stage Direction]
The Chief, ' Hansard ' Staff.
Office of Official Reporters of Debates, House of Commons,
Ottawa, April 18, 1904.
Dear Mr. Borden,-In reply to your note of to-day, asking whether, in your speech of the 5th April, you used the word ' published,' as reported, I beg to say that I find, on inquiry, that you did not use that word, but that the word you did use was ' prepared.' The use of the word ' published ' was an error of this office, which occurred in the course of transcription.
Regretting, on behalf of the staff, the inconvenience this error has occasioned you, I remain,
Very respectfully,

[Stage Direction]
Chief Reporter.
R. L. Borden. Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons.

[Stage Direction]
Mr T CHASE CASGRAIN (Montmorency) I would like to draw my right hon. 'riend's attention to the promise ^ made on .he 7tli of April last to bring down the Ordei
[Stage Direction]
in Council passed in virtue of the Act 3 Edward VII., chapter 53, transferring the management, charge and direction of eer tain public works to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. My right lion, friend said then that he would lay a copy of the Order in Council on the table. I would cal! his attention to the fact that on the 19th of March what purports to be a copy of this Order in Council was published in ' Le Canada ' at Montreal, and consequently it seems to me we ought to have it in the House. I would call the attention of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr Prefontaine) to the fact that he has not yet laid on the table the account of Mr. P. V. Savard. I do not think I am being fairly treated in this matter. The order of the House was given on the first members' day of this session directing that this account should be laid on the table of the House. I do not Want to have a debate on it to-day, but probably some other occasion will present itself.	.
Right Hon.   S@: I think I can produce that Order in Council to-morrow.



THE TARIFF-WOOLLEN AND COTTON DUTIES.

Mr. ROBERT A. PRINGLE (Cornwall and Stormont).: tariff so tliat they can give to their working men the same wages as are given in the United States of America. Now, Sir. I referred yesterday to the campaign sheets that have been circulated all through the western country with the frank of the Minister of the Interior. I have another one of them here, and it says :
Never were manufacturers so busy.
When I call the attention of the House to this fact, that the woollen industry of this country is depressed that the woollen mills of this country are being closed down, I am told by the Minister of Finance that this is not true, that he holds in his possession a letter to the effect that these mills are not closing down. I ask the Minister of Finance to put that letter on the table. Let us see that letter-because I am informed there is no such letter, that the only letter which has been sent out to the trade in this country is a ietttr simply to the effect that they are still taking orders.
That all orders accepted by us will as heretofore be filled on the terms and at the date agreed upon without fail.
Now, Sir, I referred yesterday to the different statements made by the ministers of this government. We have the Minister of the Interior going into the wfest advocating a low tariff, we have the Minister of Marine and Fisheries going into the manufacturing centres and advocating a higher tariff. We have had an accession to the cabinet lately, we have had the Hon. Charles S. Hyman, of London. I hope that that hon. gentlemen will stand no for the policy of Canada for the Canadians. I wish to quote some language of lu's as reported in the Toronto ' Globe,' and I want to know what it means, if it does not mean more protection. I am free to admit that I don't care where the protection comes from, whether it comes from the Liberals or whether it comes from Conservatives. What I do want to 'see is the workingmen of this country protected. I do not want to see what has occurred in my town last year, numbers of these men who had gathered together a little money, who had comfortable homes, and they have been put out of employment and compelled to leave the town because of the closing of the woollen mill. They were trained specially as operatives of a woollen mill, and they not only had to leave the town, but they had to go to the United States of America. I want to see these people kept in our own country, and we can keep them here if we adopt a proper policy in this country. Now let ns see what the hon. member for London (Hon. Mr. Hyman) said :
The Grand Trunk Pacific, in giving cheap transportation in the west, would go a long way towards making a protective tariff popular. Mr


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: 
Robert Abercrombie Pringle: The hon. gentleman speaks of a circular. Will he put it on the table ?


Mr. FIELDING.: I will be delighted to place a copy of it on the table. I have not a copy of the document in my pocket at this moment. If my hon. friend had given notice that he intended to ask for it I would have produced it. He, no doubt, a few moments before I entered the House said that he intended to raise the question. But my hon. friend admits the document to have been sent out because he asks : Where are the words in the circular stating that they are not closing ? I do not remember those words, but the essence of that circular is that they were inviting orders and if they were closing their mills how could they invite orders ? I say that the company has issued a circular referring to the recent reports, to prevent misunderstanding, stating that they desire to notify their customers that they are still doing business and that they are inviting orders. That is the substance of the circular sent to their customers a copy of which passed under my hand. I think I can obtain the copy again. It has already been published in the newspapers _ within the last day or two if I am not mistaken. I think I saw a copy of it in one of the Toronto papers. At all events, I gave the statement, not on the authority of a private letter, but on the authority of a circular issued by the company stating that they were still doing business and inviting orders. What effect that may have upon the general question of the woollen trade or the tariff generally I do not propose to discuss to-dtiy. But, I have stated the substance of the circular which is a public letter. I think I can give the hon. gentleman the document itself.


Mr. W. R. BROCK (Centre Toronto).: Mr. leaker, as being directly interested m this atter that is now before the House P 1 '
ips I may be permitted to say a ww_ explanation. The Canadian Woollen ills Company have four mills, lvo or iese mills were closed six months ago and ve remained closed ever since because 1Cv had no orders. We endeavoured to get line of the operatives of those nulls to .me to our western mills. We ^ leceed in getting one of them. We couia it under the present tariff, pay sufficient [DOT]'i'o-oc, and the great bulk of them are now vint in the United States. We have one

large mill at Waterloo and one at Hespeler. These mills are still running but we are preparing to close them. We issued the circular that is spoken of, but we did not say in this circular that these mills were closed. We did not say they were going to continue open. We stated that we were prepared to fill such orders as the authorities at the mill would receive. We took care not to accept any orders that would bind us beyond the 12th of May when these mills are to be sold, but in the meantime we thought we would do what the government declines to do-we would endeavour to protect our operatives even at a loss to ourselves until the change was made believing that the change would be made more to our advantage by having these mills maintained as going concerns. If we chose to accept orders these orders would be transferred to any company buying out our mills and they would certainly be more valuable with orders than without orders.
The idea I got from the remarks of the Finance Minister was, that he endeavoured to make some little capital for his side, by stating that these mills were going ; that they were not depressed ; that they were not without orders. Now, Sir, I can say positively, and I think it is well that it should be known, that we have run that concern for .four years at a loss of $50,000 per year ; that that loss commenced when the preference commenced and gradually increased as the preference increased; that as the preference increased our orders from this country became smaller, and those of us who are engaged as merchants in this country sent larger orders to Yorkshire, because we found that the mills in this country were not able to compete under existing circumstances and under the existing) tariff with the great mills of Yorkshire and Germany. That is all I require to say at present. As the Minister of Finance has said, I hope that he will have another opportunity of discussing this matter.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Before the motion is put Mr. Speaker, I just wish to say, that I am very glad that the Finance Minister has admitted that the circular which he received did not contain the language which he quoted yesterday.


William Stevens Fielding: I did not profess to quote any words ; I gave the substance.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: The Minister of Finance said :
Will my hon. friend permit me to say, that I have a circular from that woollen company, stating that they are not closed.


Mr. HYMAN.: Is that from revised or unrevised ' Hansard ' ?


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I am very glad that the Minister of Finance hai corrected that, because for the short time I have been Mr. BROCK.
in the House, I have endeavoured never t make a statement that I did not think tva absolutely correct, and when I made tn statement yesterday, that the woollen nm of this country were closing, and that ce tain of them were closed, I knew exact , what I was talking about, and I knew tn that statement was absolutely correct, was surprised when the Minister of ^1 , ance interrupted me, and said, that he n a circular which stated in express 11 guage that they were not closed. Now, has not. that circular ; he never had tn circular, and he cannot produce that c cular, because no such circular as that; in existence. The Minister of FinaI should not have interrupted me, and should not have attempted to have R broadcast throughout the country T these mills had sent forth a circular j which they said they were not closed, am very glad that this explanation
been made, and that my position has De verified.


Robert Laird Borden: I would nKe,y^. say to my hon. friend from London ^	^
Hyman) whose reference was appai'e j, to myself, that when I spoke the other ' ^ of that difference between unrevised revised ' Hansard,' I acted according to best of my belief, and I was supported ^e a letter which I to-day read before Orders of the Day were called.


Charles Smith Hyman: 
Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Mr. Speaker


Some hon. MEMBERS: Orde*, order.


Mr. SPEAKER.: I would remind the hon. member for Cornwall that he has already spoken twice. It seems to me that it would be much more conducive to the proper order of this House if on a matter in the nature of personal explanation the "on. genUeman would content himself with lia\ mg *'P twice.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Mr. Speaker, if you will allow me


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Just a moment.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.
\r,. PRINGLE. The indulgence of this House was granted to the hon. Minister of

Finance to make an explanation. I accept your ruling at once, and will not ask for the same indulgence that was granted to him. I would ask one of my friends to read the advertisement of these mills that are for sale.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon member for Cornwall had a right to speak twice without any favour from the chair, and the hon. Minister of Finance had a right to speak once, but was given the indulgence of the House to speak again. I think the same indulgence should be extended to the hon. member for Cornwall.


Mr. RICHARD BLAIN (Peel).: Mr. Speaker, as soon as you are able to keep the other side of the House in order, I will read this statement from the Toronto * Globe ' :
Woollen mills tor sale. The Canada Woollen Mills, Limited, having in contemplation the sale of some or all of their property and supplies, invite sealed tenders (to be opened by the board of directors on the 12th day of May next) for the purchase of the same, either en bloc or separately. Terms cash, &c.
The following are the properties :-
1. Woollen mill at Hespeler, in the county of Waterloo. 2. .Woollen mill at Waterloo, in the comity of Waterloo. 2. Woollen mill at Carleton Place, in the county of Lanark. 4. Woollen mill at Carleton Place.
(Sgd.) GEO. DAVIDSON,
Secretary-treasurer,
110 Wellington St., West, Toronto.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that will prove conclusively that what the hon. member for Cornwall stated was correct, that the woollen mills of this country are not in a prosperous condition.


Mr. COWAN.: Is that a good time to sell I


Richard Blain: The question is not, Mr. Speaker, whether it is a good time to sell.


Mahlon K. Cowan: A political advertisement,
I should say.


Richard Blain: I might invite the attention of the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Cowan) to the fact that the Conservative party during the last four sessions have warned the* government that this condition of things would come to pass in this country if a change in the tariff was not made. The hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House paid no attention to these warnings. They claimed that the woollen industry and other industries in this country were in a prosperous condition, and that the tariff which was introduced in 1897 was everything that this country required. They have paid no attention until the condition of the woollen industry has become such as to compel these gentlemen to offer for sale on the 1st of May !fl,000,000 worth of mill property in the different parts of Canada. In the county which I have the honour to represent there is a woollen mill which, in the eary days, employed 125 hands. That mill has gone down and down-


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: 
Mr. FRANK OLIVER (Alberta).: As a very considerable number of different subjects have been introduced into this motion to adjourn and a number of very specific statements made, it will he quite in order I presume to meet those statements and not allow them to pass unchallenged. The hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson), asked what effect the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific could possibly have m reducing the rates between eastern and western Canada. I am very much surprised that a gentleman of his standing and experience should have put such a question, because the answer must be as evident to him as it is to every other member of the House.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: This is hardly the question before the House at present.


Frank Oliver: 
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: My only reason for ap-ltlvtoE the rule is that, if this discussion continues we will he discussing, on a motion to Kurna matter which is the very next Order of the Day.
.Justify ____________________________
see that anv blame can attach to


Mr OLIVER.: I accept your ruling, Mr. Speake? as an answer to the hon. gentle-


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I 'would like to ask the hon. gentleman-


Frank Oliver: I must ask, you, Mr. Speaker, to rule this time in my favour.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: I would like to ask-


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. gentleman is not bound to allow another hon. gentleman to put a question. -


Frank Oliver: 
Mr. IIANOE  J.@: 
Mr. T. I. THOMSON (North Grey).: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Logan) will allow me. I would like to ask him a question, is he opposed to Mr. Chamberlain's policy?


Mr. LOGAN.: I am opposed to lowering the duties upon British goods coming into Canada, if that lowering will sacrifice Canadian industries. As to my view of Mr. Chamberlain's policy, if the hon. gentleman (Mr. T. I. Thomson) will tell me what Mr. Chamberlain's policy is, I wiil answer his question.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Logan) has just charged us with being opposed to Mr. Chamberlain's policy. If he knows that policy so well, why does he not answer my question?


Hance James Logan: Mr. Speaker, l am exposing the inconsistency of these hon. gentlemen opposite. The hon. member for North Grey (Mr. T. I. Thompson) asks me if I am in favour of Mr. Chamberlain's policy. I am in favour of trying to bind together the interests of the British empire. But if Mr. Chamberlain's policy means the destruction of Canadian industries for the benefit of British industries I am opposed to that policy.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: I wish to refer to just one feature of the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Logan's) argument. As representing the woollen industry, he is quite willing that that industry should be left in the hands of the Finance Minister. We find, however, that the Finance Minister gave the House very imperfect information, and practically admitted that he did not know the condition of the woollen industry. The circular to which the hon. Finance Minister referred he presented as an evidence that the woollen industry was doing well and did not require attention at the hands of the government. Does the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) object to this House presenting such data to the Finance Minister as wall enable him to intelligently determine what the woollen industry requires ? If that is the case, is he going to object to the man who owns the mills presenting evidence in the House . It he objects to that, he is very unfair to the woollen industry, he is very unfair to this House as well, and unfair to the Finance Minister. The hon. gentleman made another statement, he said he was opposed to lower-in"- the duty on British goods coming into Canada. Yet he has sat there for four years and has supported a reduction of one-third

of the duties on these goods. This is the only instance, so far as my knowledge goes, of any protest on his part. * He has a strange way of showing his objection to the preference.
Motion to adjourn (Mr. Pringle) negatived.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS.

Mr. URIAH WILSON (Lennox).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the government when I may expect the return moved for with reference to the dismissal of the postmaster at Wilton in the riding of Lennox ; also the three returns with reference to immigration. I think it is more than a month since these orders passed the House and we ought to have them down.


Rt.   H@: I will call the attention of the Minister of the Interior and of the Postmaster General to the hon. geutleman's question. I hope he will have these papers soon.



RAILWAY CONNECTION AT BROCK-YILLE.

[Stage Direction]
(lr,u,;. G,i0;1TAML0R (Leeds)- Before the
Oiders ot the Day are called, I wish to
draw the attention of the Minister of Railways and Canals and of the Postmaster General to a state of affairs which I think ought to be remedied. I regret these hon. gentlemen are not in their places to-day but I presume the right hon. the Prime Minister will bring the matter to their attention. Coming down from the west by the Grand trunk limited yesterday on our way to Ottawa there were some twenty Senators and members of parliament on board. That train was 20 minutes late, and the conductor telegraphed to Brockville that he had eighteen passengers on board for Ottawa, and that he would be at Brockville at 2.50. The time of the Canadian Pacific Railway to leai e Brockville is 2.40. He made 30 miles fiom our station Gananoque to Brockville in 30 minutes, and arrived at Brockville at -.o0. Just as we were coming in we saw the smoke of the Canadian Pacific Railway train leaving Brockville, we were five minutes too late to make the connection, i have come down four times during the present session at midday, and on three different occasions we arrived too late, and I had to go round by Cornwall, as we had to do yesterday. I think the Minister of Railways and Canals should compel those two railway companies to change their time tables so that there would be connections at Brockville. The limited on the Grand Trunk is due at 2.40
p.m. at Brockville, and the Canadian Pacific Railway is timed to leave there at 2.40. So if the train on the Grand Trunk is ten minutes late the passengers are left behind, some have to remain in Brockville, or to
Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
Mr.  A. E.@: 

14T6
approach of elections in years gone bj-. [DOT] What are these signs ? One is that before the election comes about the Toronto ' Globe ' sends for the cartoonist that it lias employed in years gone by. The management of that organ give the cartoonist instructions in regard to what they want him to do. They wanted him to get away from his old ideas, to put aside his free trade cartoons, his extravagant expenditure cartoons, his blue ruin cartoons and his unrestricted reciprocity cartoons. Something new was required and they have invented something new in the shape of the [DOT] Finger-posts of prosperity. ' That was a sure sign that the election was coming on. These [DOT] finger-posts of prosperity ' appeared in almost every issue of the ' Globe ' until the government decided to call parliament to meet to deal with these concessions. The cartoons published in the ' Globe' were considered to be so good that the Liberal press throughout the country copied them and they even found their way in a somewhat modified form into a certain section of the independent press of this country. The government had had new demands made upon them after they had prepared for the election. They had either to call off the election or call the bargain off. They were between two alternatives ; they either had to go to the country or call parliament together to consider these concessions. I contend that the government did right in calling parliament together, but I contend they did wrong in accepting any of these concessions that are embodied in this legislation. The government bad made a bargain with a corporation which they thought to be a good bargain. They expected that corporation to carry it out. When this government negotiates a treaty with the United States the Senate of the United States can throw it out. The government have placed themselves in the same position in regard to this contract that this or any other eoun-try places Itself: in when negotiating a treaty with the United States. The country was bound bard and fast but we find the Grand Trunk Railway Company were not bound. Ministers in this House who talked about safeguarding the rights of the country were told to swallow what they had said and make a right about turn. We know what the words of the Finance Minister were in regard to this proposition, how the Grand Trunk were in this contract, and of it, and the whole of it, and we know what else he said and what other members of the government said. There was a panic on December 19 in the government; there is no doubt about that and there must hgve been some tremendous sighs when the government first found out that the Grand Trunk Railway were not going to carry out their contract. That subsided oil .Tanuary 16th when this House was called.


Mr. KEMP.: when I had the pleasure of appearing before the Railway Committee last year.
In any ease, if it is not the law of the country that these gentlemen have free transportation over the railways, I shall he glad to suggest to Mr. Hays that they should get a free pass to attend this session over the Grand! Trunk on the slow trains.
I think. Sir, that as an apology was <!ue from the president of the Grand Trunk Railway Company to the government of Canada, some such language as that, might be incorporated in his letter to the Prime Minister.
Now, Sir, it seems to me that there is too much made of the idea, that it is difficult to get the Grand Trunk Railway Company or the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company to build this transcontinental line. As a matter of fact, is it not the case that the Grand Trunk were very anxious to build this line ? Do not the statements made by the directors to their shareholders in London, prove that the Grand Trunk Company is eager to build this railway. Let me quote from their remarks.
Mr. Girdlestone said :
If- you do reject it somebody else will undoubtedly get that line, and you will have been forced out of the territory, and for that reason alone I think the board are wise in putting before us the policy they do to-day.
Lord Welby said :
If you say ' No,' there is very little doubt that there are many others ready to avail themselves of the opportunity, and we have every reason to believe that the government of Canada has entirely decided that it will carry out this new line, and, if you refuse to do it, then other parties, without any doubt, are ready to come forward and take up the development which is offered, and the opportunity will pass away from you. (Hear, hear.)
Sir Charles Rivers-Wilson said :
Parliament meeting the day after to-morrow, the agreements will not be ratified, and those advantages, which *; sincerely believe will likely accrue to our company, pass into other hands.
It would appear to me that from the moment the Grand Trunk Company discovered that the government were too hasty in regard to the construction of this line ; from that moment it was impossible to make fair terms with them in the interests of the people of Canada. If this government had been a little more crafty, or a little more deliberate, and if such language as was used in the House last year by the Prime Minister, when he referred to us as drifting on to the shoals, when he told us that time would not wait; if such language Lad not been used by the Prime Minister and his ministers and supporters, we would have had a far better chance of making a fair bargain with the Grand Trunk Company. The president of the Grand Trunk Railway informed his shareholders that It had been the intention of the company at


Albert Edward Kemp: 
Albert Edward Kemp: 
Mr.   J AMES J. HUGHES@King's, P. E. I.: Mr. Speaker, I had not the privilege of hearing the earlier speeches delivered on the resolution now before the House. But I have looked carefully over some of those speeches, particularly the one delivered by the leader of the opposition and the one delivered by the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier), and as a young member of this House l must say that I was surprised to find that the leader of the opposition, in treating the financial side of this question, was so very unfair and misleading in the statements he made, and that the hon. member for West Toronto was absolutely incorrect in tbe statements that he made. I admit, Mr. Speaker, that this is rather strong language, but I hope to prove it before I sit down. Before attempting to do so, however, I wish to refer briefly to section 42 of tbe agreement, a section which is very interesting to us in the maritime provinces. During the recess it has been discussed at considerable length in the newspapers of Prince Edward Island from which I have the honour to come, and also at public meetings that have been held in the by-election in West Queen's. Our Conservative opponents stated very emphatically that this section was not strong enough, or broad enough, or comprehensive enough to compel the Grand Trunk Pacific to carry the freight and traffic tha I; it will gather up in the west and in the middle west and bring it down through Canadian channels to Canadian ocean ports, ano that consequently the government should condemned for not being able to make a neater bargain and one more in the mte - [DOT] the maritime provinces.	__
aartrrAns,
Pacific Bill was before parliament last session tbe opposition held a caucus and tin united wisdom and legal ability of tm opposition prepared a resolution, which, in their opinion would exactly meet the ie-Srements of the case. The resolution was


Mr. J. J. HUGHES.: areas ol' valuable timber and mineral lauds opening up for cultivation millions and tens of millions of acres of the most valuable agricultural lands in the world. What will $20,000,000 be to the people of this country ? Our population is now about 0,000,000, but long before we are called upon to meet this obligation, our population will be 7.000.000 or 8,000,000, that $20,000,000	_ divided
amongst our population will be less than $." per head of the population, or $15 for every family of live persons. In view of this, how can the member for Grey (Mr. Sproule) and the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor), and the hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. Ilaggart) ; how can intelligent men like these stand up in this House and say that this enterprise will put a mortgage of $125 on every man's farm ?


Mr. HEYD.: They would say anything.


James Joseph Hughes: Well, Sir, even if we had to meet all this obligation in one year, it would not be a very considerable matter after all ; it would be very little more than the surplus of last year, and I>ossibly not more than the surplus of the present year. But, Sir, we will not have to meet it in one year. The payment will be extended over a period of fifteen years. It will take seven or eight years for the government to construct the railway, and we will be paying the interest for seven years more, so that it will be spread over a period of fifteen years, and hence it will amount to about one dollar per year for each family in the Dominion of Canada during fifteen years.
But, Sir, this enterprise will not cost the people of Canada one single dollar, because I hold-and I believe I can maintain it successfully-that the increased business that we shall do. the profit we will make on our increased business because of the construction of this railway, will pay for the railway four or five times over. I need not refer to the augmented value that will be given to the lands through which this railway will pass. No matter whether these lands belong to the provinces or to the Dominion government, they will be increased in value so that if these lands be sold for what they will bring, the increased value will go into the exchequers of the provinces or into the Dominion exchequer. They will benefit by ten-fold what the road will cost. Therefore, so far from this National Transcontinental Railway being a drain on the resources of the country, it will on the contrary be a source of profit and revenue.	.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr.   .TAMES J. HUGHES@: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: What about the guarantee for the prairie section ?


James Joseph Hughes: tliis opposition. They would chain the Canadian people to the car wheels of the Canadian Pacific Railway, if they could. Now, Sir, the hon. member for West Hastings- I think it was he-threw out a challenge to this side of the House. He challenged the government to go to the country on this issue. Sir. that was an idle and a boastful challenge. The hon. gentleman knows well that we shall go to the country upon this issue. He knows that this will be the leading subject of discussion before the people. He knows well that the record of the government in every particular cannot be successfully assailed, and he knows also that we are quite prepared to meet our opposition friends upon this issue. We are confident of the verdict. We know what the verdict of this generation will be : we feel confident what the verdict of the next generation will be ; and we believe that the population of cities yet unbuilt will do honour to the memory of the men who had the ability to conceive and the courage to carry through this great undertaking-an undertaking, Sir, that will go far to make of Canada a nation among the nations of the earth. I have therefore no hesitation in saying that I shall vote for the resolution and against the amendment now before the House.


Mr. A. A. LEFURGEY (East Prince, P.E.I.).: Canada. But instead of that ; under this scheme of the government, the grain of the west will be transferred over the Northern Pacific, passing out by way of Winnipeg across the International boundary at Emerson, and connecting with the Chicago and Grand Trunk. The earnings of the road will go to the people of the United States; the dividends will go to maintain United States railway corporations, and the Canadian people will be the sufferers. These are the views of the government's own man ; these are the views of the ex-Minister of Railways, and judging from the high position in which the government has placed Mr. Blair, we must consider that he is their own man. They are also, Sir, the views of the leader of the opposition and his supporters in this House. Nor, cio the Conservatives, and Mr. Blair stand alone in this matter of government ownership. For years both in the United States and in England, they have been trying to get some control over these immense railway corporations. I quote from the Statesman's Tear-book, 1898, these statistics regarding railways.
Country.
Argentine Republic, 8,998 miles,
not distinguished	
Alsace-Lorame	
Austria-Hungary	
Baden, Germany	
Bavaria	
Belgium	 ,
Brazil, State, Union, subvention..
Brunswick	
Bulgaria	
Cape of Good Hope	
Ceylon	
Chili	
Columbia	
Denmark	
Dutch East Indies	'.
Ecuador (declined private construction of projected line)	
Egypt			
England (public ownership agitated)	
Finland	
France (private railroads revert to
State)


German Empire ....: 
Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: 
Hon. WM. ROSS.: Don't, don't.


Mr LEFURGEY.: Total.

142,
118,
96,
385,
409,
198,
244,
127,
6,
88,
155,
490,
096,
348,
381,
788,
603.
736,
852,
098.
121.
300
397
699
,724
,050
,055
,545

 

 FINANCE. T" - [DOT]
The MINISTER OF	t cn*.p
nothing to prevent them, but they m[DOT] *	port
no higher rate for traffic to Canad rts. than they charge for traffic to American r tejiig Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). And Portia? so much nearer than St. John or Hall r would ibeessarily carry it to Portland.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Trying to evade the issue

	v.eI*
-They might carry it to Portland it; t'Jcootr^. perfectly free ; but under the prese to they are obliged to give the same
,rSe
John or Halifax as to Portland.	give


Robert Laird Borden: 
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. .: [DOT]hat
. -co,, .	- will compel llils grain
'll'.'bln , to our Atlantic ports 7 Tlilrd-'Lin] 1 1 uiiieni Iuih acted hastily and lustily ip throwing a scheme
b)
like this into parliament as they did last year without due deliberation, without that deliberation which any body of men would give to a private undertaking that did my: involve anything near as great a sum or ou wiliek so much depended as this. They acted ill-advisedly in that they did not heed the advice of the ex-Minister of Railways, but on the contrary excluded him from their council when they met in solemn conclave on this question, concealing from the people and from the other members of this House his opinion in favour of government ownership. Fourthly, they have secured no control of rates, no reciprocal trade facilities by this agreement. Fifthly, they are encouraging gambling in public utilities, by allowing the greater part of this $25,000,000 of stock to be held and sold to the public while it represents no real value in the road. Sixthly, the liability undertaken will practically build the whole road, while the profitable parts of it become the property of a private corporation. Seventhly, it expends unprofitable the resources of the country, to the detriment of our natural shipping transportation routes and waterways. Eig+hly, and the most dangerous feature of all, it throttles the will of the people by postponing government ownership for one hundred years.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken on this question from a sense of duty. I believe that 1 have been sent up here to represent the best interests of the people of Canada, mid I realize that I shall have to go back to my own constituents and give an account of my stewardship in this House. I believe that in getting up on this occasion and in advocating, as I have done, government ownership of railways, and in asking the government to reconsider this scheme, 1 am simply doing what the people who have placed their confidence in me expect me te do. I say of this scheme, as I said of it last year, that this government cannot place their finger upon one great work that they have attemped or put into operation since they came into power. They an now endeavouring to erect a political tombstone for themselves, and T believe they will succeed in doing it.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Mr. peaker. the fact that the government have ot a speaker to answer the arguments of iv lion, friend from East Prince (-	[DOT]
;;r;L		
'Son thta question at the last
RF.VfftKO i:t>lTION

The above estimate assumes that the money can be borrowed on 3 per cent securities at par-but if securities arc placed at 90 (and the Finance Minister has admitted that they will not bring par) the result would be :
To provide $75,000,000 at 90 per cent
as cost of 1,875 miles	$ 83,333,334
Four years simple interest during construction, at 3 per cent, $2,500,000 per year for 4 years	 10,000.000

Assuming the cost of the railway to
completion to be	$84,000,000
We must add seven years' interest (not compounded) after completion, during which the Grand Trunk Pacific is to pay no rent	 17,640,000

Interest on this sum for three years additional, during which no rent is collectable, unless earning3 are
sufficient (not compounded) ... 9,147,600

But, as above stated, if the securities are placed at 90, instead of at par
the cost of the railway will be______$ 93,333,334
Seven years' interest after completion (hot compounded)	 19,600,000

Interest on this sum for three years additional, during which no rent is collectable (not compounded).. ..	10,104,000



$123,097,334 QUEBEC BRIDGE.

[Stage Direction]
(Hansard 14526, sec. 6.)
Bonds to be guaranteed by the government, to be issued monthly, as work proceeds, and bridge to be completed 1st December, 1906..	6,678,200
Thomas Inkerman Thomson: ^ty-five
per cent of above to be jGaranteed by the government for ,76 construction of mountain see-
10,1		$ 23,250,000
government agrees to pay interest on bonds so guaran-,.f9 _tor seven years, that is to say
**97,5
500 per year for seven years..
4,882,500



$ 28 132,500 SUMMARY OF OBLIGATIONS.

[Stage Direction]
If 3 p.C.	If 3 p.c.
bonds are bonds are 6	sold at par. sold at 90 p.c.
^vei'n division and
Pf1Uebec bridge	$117,750,000 or $130,000,000
section	 13.000,000 or 13,000,000
®in section ..
25,000,000 or 28,000,000
$155,750,000 or $171,000,000
*T*i
the "ls if three per cent bonds are sold at par, bw eastern division and Quebec bridge would 5l;>
nun 1,150,000 ; the prairie section would cost l25(i^'0OO ; the mountain section would cost V'OO.OOO ; total $155,750,000. If three per cent n. "s i,„	 * nn . noojern division and
%lkr are sold at 90 ; the
bridge will cost $130,000,000 : the prairie 8ec.:°n will cost $13,000,000. and the mountain Oto^h $28,000,000, making a total of $171,-
JV leader of the opposition as will be [DOT]$I7(1 figures out tlie cost of the road at $1''"9b,000. Let me place on record what %.v',<J(jO,0<io means. One hundred and million dollars in gold will weigh than 708,333 pounds or 354 tons. It V;<1 require a train of thirty-six cars of Hins to haul this amount of gold. The lob* ,'v°uld be a half mile in length. In *J'Ls it will extend 38,400 miles. It is iVny 1° $0 per foot for every foot of rail-^ch i imagine thirty-six cars of ten tons ioaded with gold a present from the V- pof Canada to the Grand Trunk Rall-1,,. Company.	_
W ' Speaker, while. we have to incur this *i|. jSxPendlture, we have the statement of ,bjin'lv,-rs-Wilson at the meeting of the 4ii(ol Trunk shareholders in London on 1904, i [>ent ini $15,000, a said :
K nave fo	
C°WS Rationed, you will find that the result i,.. tespo11 awount, of principal bonds guaranteed .LLji ,ci of both sections of £2,968,000, and of V |tahii',tere8t of £118,720, but even this interim *ecf, ty. comparatively small as it is. need
n. tlttv.. Until ilio ovnirntiGn nP Aitrht VPai'S-
*<^8.1804, that they forced the Canadian
^QlPnf in4-n * tvimfiimiciliin in wrhipll fllPV
^he
*lt y
-S| nave followed the figures which I have
* -'[DOT]/V/-*, Ul4.ll. UlC,V 1U1 LLU LUC
Lir' "b'ent into a partnership in which they 'v1i;kI* 5,000,000 as their portion. This is
' Lumpaiauvuiy oiuaii ao n, **->*	*
b(_* rj,,I until the expiration of eight years- Ve°st | allowed for construction-the interest W Of "I'ing construction being provided for t (,'Mbli,,pttab This, then, constitutes the res-*C><5 J* Of the Grand Trunk Company, and (*>, ^.'[DOT]statement will allay the apprehen-Hij	" have been already expressed by a
<!s. who may not have sufficiently of accurately understood the provi-l"e agreements. (Hear, hear.)
This is a partnership in which Canada nuts up 170 millions of dollars, the Grand Trunk 15 millions, and the Grand Trunk people own the road, control the rates and take the profits. I do not believe the country is in favour of such a partnership. The policy of the opposition is to extend the Intercolonial Railway to the Pacific coast. It will cost us 50 millions of dollars less than the proposed agreement. We will own the road, control the rates and operate it in the best'interests of the people of Canada. This to my mind is a policy that will meet with the approval of the people of this country.
The member for South Essex (Mr .Cowan) quoted from a speech delivered by Sir John A. Macdonald 34 years ago declaring that government ownership was inconvenient. The member for South Essex, like Rip Van Winkle, has been sleeping for the past 34 years : he has not taken stock of the great change in the opinions of public men of late vears as regards public ownership. Why, Sir, to-day municipal corporations, towns and cities, not only in Canada, but also in Europe, are operating these public franchises instead of letting them pass into private hands. The city of Glasgow has shown what may be done in the interest of tlie people in tiiis respect. ^ Why, Sir, the town of Owen Sound, in which I live, owns and operates to the advantage of the people their water system, the electric light, the gits light system, and have refused to allow the street car franchise to pass out of their hands. In France. Australia and other countries we find state-owned railways, owned and controlled by the people to their own advantage. This is an age of progress, and the public demand the control of these franchises as far as possible. The day is not far distant when the Canadian people will demand the control of all the railways in this country, as they to-day have control of our canals and waterways.
Mr. Speaker, I question the right of this government to commit the country to (his scheme until it lias received the endorsation of the people. In the elections of 1900 no mention was made of such an undertaking, and where the people have had an opportunity of passing judgment since the scheme was proposed in parliament, they have voted against the government. I ask you, is it reasonable that a country where the whole annual revenue derived from customs ana excise amounts to $49,000,000, should be committed to an expenditure of $170,000,000 without the people being first consulted .
The present government have certainly a very checkered record in this respect. Jhc contract for the Yukon Railway, which involved the giving away of four million acres of the richest gold lands in the world, was signed a few weeks before parliament met. The people's representatives were not even consulted before the deal was consummated.
[Stage Direction]
A few years later this same government re fused to send Canadian troops^ to Soutl Africa because parliament had made no pro visions for doing so. It would appear tin this government is moved more by expediency than by precedent or sound constitutional principles.	.	_	,
Mr. Speaker, I will vote against the Giand Trunk Pacific Bill because I believe it is detrimental to the best interests of my constituents and also to Canada. I am °PP®s®d to burdening the people with an indebtedness of $170,000,000 for the benefit of the Grand Trunk Pacific Company. If another transcontinental railway is necessary, I am in favour of extending the Intercolonial Railway, which we built and own, from Montreal to Port Simpson, and of controlling and operating it to the best interests of the people of Canada.	[DOT]
Mr. SAMUEL BARKER moved the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to. and debate adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Fielding, House adjourned at 11.20 p.m.
3.	Sittings were held at Montreal, ' aDs-cinthe, Yictoriaville, Brockville ana
ville.	„ ,prs
4.	Evidence was taken. Bep°":ent duf: newspaper representatives were pi reared ing the sittings at Montreal. None < l
at any of the other sittings.
5.	Yes.	. . , ;n co*-
6.	The commission was appomtea paving sequence of numerous complain * ejgbjo8 reached the government in re the
of butter and cheese.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMIT!'® '
Mr.  R. L.@: 

GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC

[Stage Direction]
CORRESPONDENCE.	^
Robert Laird Borden: 
AVednesday, April 20, 1904.