1904-07-07

Mr. W. M. GERMAN moved :: That all rules and orders he suspended in relation to a Bill to amend the Act of the. present session intituled 1 An Act to incorporate the Thorold and Lake Erie Railway Comlpiainy-'


Right Hon.   S@: Explain.


William Manley German: Unfortunately clerical errors occurred in the Bill. The names of Mr. HAGGART.
three of the incorporators :	Mr. Noreross,
Mr. Taschereau, and Mr. Bigman were typewritten incorrectly, and section 10 of the Bill allowed this railway company to make traffic arrangements with the great lakes and St. Lawrence Navigation Company; when it should have been ' transportation company ' instead of ' navigation company.'
It is simply sought to amend clerical errors. There is a precedent for this procedure. In the journals of the House of Commons of 1887, in the motion, of Mr. Kirkpatrick seconded by Mr. Hesson, a similar motion was made with regard to the Kincardine and Teeswater Railway Company. The Bill was presented to the House, received and read the first time ; a resolution was passed authorizing the second and third readings, and it was then ordered that the clerk should carry the Bill to the Senate and desire their concurrence.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I suppose my hon. friend is entitled to have the Bill read the first time, but I do not think the rules of the House should be suspended to a greater extent than that. I presume the facts are just as stated, and that this is simply to correct clerical errors, but as it is a private Bill and there may be interested parties, I think it would be unwise to suspend all rules at once and to say that the Bill should be carried through without further investigation. I would suggest that the Bill should be read the first time, and referred to the Committee on Standing Orders where it can be examined.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill introduced and read the first time.
On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the Bill was referred to the Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. CLANCY-by Mr. Ingram-asked :
1.	Has 53 Victoria, Chapter 23, section 4, which repeals 154 o£ the Inland Revenue Act, and substitutes the* following :-[DOT]' Every distiller who exports any spirits in the production whereof any malt is used, upon which any duty of excise has been paid, shall upon the production of due proof of such use and payment of duty, be entitled to a drawback equal to the excise duty paid on the malt used in the production of the spirits so exported ; and the amount of such drawback shall be determined in such manner as is directed by any Departmental Regulation in that behalf,' been repealed or amended ?
* 2. If so, when ?
Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Inland Revenue) :: 1.	Not repealed or amended.
2.	Not repealed or amended.


NAPANEE RIVER BUOYS.
Mr. WILSON asked :: 
Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	Yes. Under instructions of the department. Painting included in cost of painting and placing.
2.	Yes. Placed toy R. B. Shipman under instruction from the department. Twenty dollars to be paid for painting and placing.
3.	Yes. Posters sent out 24th June last. The last day for receiving tenders is the 7th July.
4.	No arrangement has been made for paying any person for superintending the service.


MONTREAL AND ATLANTIC RAILWAY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MIGNAULT-by Mr. Proulx-asked :
1.	Is the government aware that the section of the Montreal and Atlantic Railway between Yamaska and St. Guillaume is no longer being operated ?
2.	Is it the intention of the goverment to take the necessary means to oblige the company to open that railway to traffic ?
The Rt.   H@: R, EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :
1.	The government have no official information that this section of railway is not being operated, beyond the fact that it does not appear in the sworn statistics of the Montreal and Atlantic Railway made to the department by the company.
2.	The matter having only now been brought to the attention of the department, is being considered.


TRENTON HARBOUR DREDGING.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. PORTER-by Mr. Sproule-asked :
1.	Has any person been appointed to keep account, on behalf of the government, of the quantities- of dredging now being done in Trenton Harbour, Ontario ?
2.	If so, when was such appointment made, and by whom was it made ?
2. What is the name of the person so appointed ?
4. Was he appointed upon the recommendation of any person or persons ? If so, whom?
Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Inland Revenue) :: 1. Yes.
2.	Appointed on June 17, 1904, by order of acting minister.
3.	Mr. Josiah P. Shurie.
4.	Appointed by order of acting minister.


RAILWAY ON THE BANKS OF THE LACHINE CANAL.
Mr. F. D. MONK.: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called, I wish to inquire from the government whether they have authorized the use of one side of the Lachine canal by the trains of any railway company ; in other words, whether they have given leave to build on the banks of the Lachine canal a track enabling a railway to enter the city of Montreal by this road. I have received a great many inquiries from interested parties in my county who a're very anxious to know if that has been granted, and this is the reason why I put this question.


The Rt.   H@: (Translation.! Mr. Speaker. I think this permission has been granted a good many years ago. I could not say if some recent order has been added to that permission. I will give a definite answer to my hon. friend in a few days.


REPORT PRESENTED.
[Stage Direction]
Summary report of the Geological Survey for the year 1903.-Hon. Clifford Sifton (Minister of the Interim,-.)

Mr. S. BARKER.: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister, whether he will have laid upon the table, the two Orders in Council referred to at page 6 of the Auditor General's report, dated the 18th of February, 1898. and the 12tli of June. 1890. These are the two Orders in Council with respect to the original contract for light and power on the Cornwall canal. They will be needed in the discussion on the estimates.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand these orders have been laid on the table already ; however, I will see about it.


Samuel Barker: Those of 1900 have been, but not those of 1890.	.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Civil Government-Department of Trade and Commerce-salaries, including the accountant at $1,800, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $18,200.
['My object in asking that question now is this. When that item comes up on the supplementary estimates, I desire that the minister shall be ready to furnish us with all particulars about the work-the plans, profiles, specifications and contracts entered into, if any, and the tenders and everything concerning the work, so that we may be able to discuss it without asking further adjournment.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Yielding, House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.', 'Friday, July 8, 1904.']
The Rt.   H@: The House will observe that there'is an additional vote asked for of $4,000. This is principally by reason of the appointment of an accountant, who is a new

officer, at $1,800. Two officers were transferred from the ordinary charge for clerical assistance and put on the permanent list, making $1,000. The remainder is for statutory increases. The appointment of an accountant was rendered necessary by the fact that very large sums are now being disbursed through the department for bounties and other purposes.


Mr. CLARKE.: Who has been appointed accountant ?	;


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT  J.@: Code. He was formerly assistant in the Customs Department, and has been transferred to mine.
Mr. BLA1N. How long has Mr. Code been in the employ of the government ?


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: About twenty years.


Mr. LENNOX.: Will the bon. gentleman mention in what cases the statutory increases occur?	,


Richard John Cartwright: A chief clerk, $50; a first-class clerk, $50; a second-class clerk, $50; five junior second-class clerks, $50 each; three third-class clerks and two messengers.


Mr. BLAIN.: Will the hon. minister explain to the committee that well-known phrase which we see so frequently now in the estimates: 'notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act ? '


Richard John Cartwright: That refers to the case of the accountant. He was in the service of the Customs Department as assistant accountant at $1,600. On being transferred to this department, where the service required from him is more responsible and more important, his salary has [DOT]been raised to' $1,800.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have all the clerks in the hon. gentleman's department who were entitled to the statutory increase received that increase?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.
Mr. 'LENNOX. I would like . the hon. gentleman to inform the committee whether in the reorganization of the department the hon. gentleman has pursued the course laid down in the statute. I would also call the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact of there being now two messengers instead of one.


Richard John Cartwright: There have always been two messengers, only one has heretofore been paid out of the contingencies instead of out of the main vote.


Haughton Lennox: The hon. gentleman has not stated whether the statute has been complied with in the re-organization of the Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.
department. It is somewhat surprising to find an increase in this department of even $4,000, in view of the record of the right hon. gentleman at the head of that depart-Kinent as a public man, and in view of his explicit statement made on several occasions that it was a useless department orij which the expenditure of public money could not be justified.


Richard John Cartwright: The major item is the increase for the accountant. That is due to the very large expenditures now paid through the department on bounties and mail subsidies. The $1,000 increase in the mail clerks has been caused by a transfer. It was formerly paid from contingencies and is now paid directly. The rest are all statutory increases. Touching the work of the department, it may interest the hon. gentleman to know that, if the correspondence is any guide, it has increased just 600 per cent within the last six or seven years. There is a great deal more done than in 1896. There are six times as many letters and almost six times as much work in other ways.


Mr. SPROULE.: You have fifteen clerks instead of ten.


Richard John Cartwright: Three are mere transfers. The only new appointment is the accountant.


Haughton Lennox: The right hon. gentleman has not answered my question as to the manner in which this alteration is made in the department.


Richard John Cartwright: The chief alteration was the appointment of a new accountant. The only other material alteration was in handing over the commercial agencies to the assistant Deputy Minister for special control. The rest is as before.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: -We have this fact established at any rate. The right hon. gentleman was wanting to say that this was a useless department and the money spent on it was wasted. Yet we are now asked to vote $31,800 on that department, including the salary of the minister. That is a large amount for the country to have to pay for a department which the right hon. gentleman has often declared is absolutely unnecessary and useless.


Richard John Cartwright: But there is an alteration between 1896 and 1904.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes, there is another occupant of the position,.


Haughton Lennox: The Civil Service Act stipulates that in order to effect a change in the organization of a department, such as is asked for here, certain steps have to be taken. There must be a recommendation from the deputy head to the head of the department, that recommendation must be

concurred in by the head of the department, and then laid before the Council. That procedure has, however, been neglected by the various departments.


Richard John Cartwright: In all
cases where there has been any new creation, a report of the deputy head has always been obtained. I have here a memo, from Mr. McGee, showing the practice prior to 1896. In several cases the reports of the deputy heads were presented to parliament and in almost all the others the appointments were made after parliament prorogued. I shall send my hon. friend the memorandum.


Haughton Lennox: 
Richard John Cartwright: 
Haughton Lennox: The question is not the qualifications of an official, but the creation of the office, so that the fact that the accountant was in another department is not material. The statute provides, wisely or otherwise, that before this is done a certain course shall be pursued and among other things that the promotions or introduction of a new clerkship shall be upon
the recommendation of the deputy head setting forth in writing the reasons why he makes the suggestion or recommendation.
I am not arguing the question in the legal sense, but am speaking of it only as a matter of propriety in carrying out the provisions-of the statute.
' Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT. As a matter of course an Order in Council was passed authorizing this appointment.


Haughton Lennox: What I object to is that: there has not been a recommendation inwriting by the head of the department as an initial step in the proceedings.
Civil government, contingencies, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act*. $6,600.


Richard John Cartwright: There-is a reduction here of about.$100 in all. In, 1903 the vote for clerical and other assistance was $2,500. That is now reduced to L500-. Two sections were made of this, part of it being transferred to the main estimates. Under printing and stationery we ask $2,000 in 1903-4 and $2,300 now. My deputy informs me that the increase is on account of the various bounties required. There is a saving in the case of sundries which were $2,500 and are now $2,300. The total asked in 1903 was $7,000, the total asked now is $6,600.
Ocean and mail service between Great Britain and Canada, $260,000.


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: What do they now receive for the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian ? '


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: They are to have an effectual actual speed of 17 knots.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the speed of the ' Tunisian ' and ' Bavarian ? '


Richard John Cartwright: It is supposed to be about 14i to 15 knots. They seem to have kept that speed this year and a good deal better than in former times. Of late they have been doing a good deal better than last year.


Edward Frederick Clarke: For what reason was the increased subsidy given ?


Richard John Cartwright: I cut down their demands in the matter of the new steamers very considerably, and allowed them a little more in the case of the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian.' It was a kind of lumping business for the whole service. They complained that they lost money on the trips. Whether that is so or not I cannot say, but I made large reductions from the amounts they demanded for the new steamers and gave a slight increase for the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: Provided always they live up to their contract. There is a special clause under which, if they fail, they are fined one per cent for each hour.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has that fine ever been collected ?


Richard John Cartwright: I cannot enforce it in their case because the steamers have not yet been put on the service.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has it been collected in any ease ?


Richard John Cartwright: Oh, yes, I have several times imposed fines for failure to live up to the time stipulated in the contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where will I find the particulars ? Does the bon. gentleman remember how much the deductions have amounted to ?


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: For failing to make the time ? What was the average time made Mr. CLARKE.
for the last twelve months and how does it compare with the time made during the previous twelve months.


Richard John Cartwright: During the summer of 1903 they appear to have made 30 trips at an average time of 7 days 12 .hours and 47 minutes, that is fron Mo-ville to Rimouski.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What does that mean in knots per hour ?


Richard John Cartwright: All depends on whether they went south or through the Belle Isle passage.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman must have the figures before him. I would like to know what is the average speed per hour, and the hon. gentleman says that depends on whether they took one passage or the other. Of course, he has the distances by both routes before him ?


Richard John Cartwright: From Rimouski to Moville, via Belle Isle, 2,287 knots ; and from Rimouski to Moville by Cape Race, the shortest possible route, 2,445 knots. That amounts to 7 days 12 hours and 47 minutes. With respect to Cape Race, that is probably shorter than the true time, because they are compelled to go further south in passing by Cape Race.


Mr. BELL.: What is the tonnage of these steamers ?


Richard John Cartwright: 8,000 to 10,000 tons.


Mr. DANIEL.: Would the minister state what arrangements have been made under this contract during the winter months for the St. Lawrence navigation ?


Richard John Cartwright: In the winter months they sail from St. John and Halifax, and a little longer time is allowed in winter-I think 12 hours additional time for the same steamers. The contract stipulates that in each case of these new steamers, the ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian,' ten full round trips must be made. The hon. gentleman will understand that all these steamers have to be taken off for a certain time for ordinary repair, and this is done during the winter.


John Waterhouse Daniel: The old Beaver Line is not under contract now ?


Richard John Cartwright: No ; our only contract for this service is with the Allans. This contract is expected to run two years.
Mr. iSPROULE. In making a new contract like that it is a great pity that some arrangements have not been made for a faster service. I understood the minister to say that the new steamers would make about 17 knots an hour. That appears to be very slow compared with the speed that steamiers make between Niew York and

Europe. We appear to be either wasting our time in some way, or to be unequal to the occasion in failing to provide a better service than we have. I think the country will conclude that there is something wrong when we cannot succeed in getting a faster service than the 17 knots an hour that the new steamers are to make. Surely we could provide a greater speed than that.


Richard John Cartwright: My hon. friend will note that there are two serious questions to consider. One is the enormously increased expense that an *additional speed would entail. The other arises from the fact that fast steamers can carry only a small amouilt of freight. The amount, I believe, that is carried on a fast steamer is something like 1,400 or 1,500 tons in vessels of 10,000 tonnage or more ; whereas, as he knows, other vessels carry a very heavy freight. I think I have mentioned to the House that we tried to ascertain what could be done for a faster serv Ice. but the only tenders submitted to us called for $1,000,000 in one case, and $1,250,000 in the other, for a 20-knot service, and they appended to it divers conditions which it was not in the power of the government to comply with.


Edward Frederick Clarke: As a matter of fact, taking the mean speed of last year, we have been paying these subsidies for a mean speed of 13 knots per hour. That is the best we have been able to do yet.


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If I have made the calculation rightly, for the longer passage of 2,455 miles, with a mean time of 7 days and 12 hours, the rate would be 13'6 knots per hour and for the shorter passage of 2.287 miles, 12-7 knots per hour. The average speed, taking both routes into consideration, during the past year, has been 13 knots per hour for the carriage of our mails. Surely we should be able to accelerate that speed in the near future.
knots, taking into account the shorter passage that we have, amounts to almost nothing as between the New York passage and the passage from Moville to Rimouski. 1 may also point out that the average speed is a good deal reduced by- the fact that if vessels like the ' Parisian ' and ' Pretorian ' were employed as subsidiary boats, as well as the ' Bavarian ' and 4 Tunisian,' we would attain a much better average speed than we are attaining with the 4 Bavarian ' and the 4 Tunisian ' as the principal boats. Now, 1 find that the 4 Tunisian ' for the most part did the service in about six and a half days. In July the average was 6 days 21 hours ; August, 6 days 8 hours ; the next time, o davs 9 hours. And in the fall, of course, wlien they had more difficulty with fog and sometimes with ice, the time was done to 7 days 8 hours. But, for the most part, the 4 Bavarian ' and 4 Tunisian ' did the Passage in considerably under 7 days. The distances I gave the hon. gentleman are the shortest possible distances. But in passing along Newfoundland they frequently have to diverge considerably to the ssouth, which lengthens the passage. I may mention also that I have felt rather doubtful whether I ought to insist too rigorously on Ane terms of the contract where they pleaded that the had to stop on account of fog. If you insist too much upon it, you may tempt	Pe '
pie to run at an increased rate of speed under circumstances which may impeU1 safety of the passengers. Therefore, uher_ they'have been detained by fog and ice. I have dealt rather leniently with loss o. time.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What is the intended tonnage of these two new turbine steamers, and is it intended that they are to come up to Montreal ? And I may say to my right hon. friend (Sir Richard Cartwright) that our friends about me here have suggested that he should not give himself the trouble to rise to answer each question that is put to him.


Richard John Cartwright: The question is one which has engaged a good deal of attention. I would just point out to my hon. friend that by the terms of the contract which I have made with the Allans, if they are complied with, we will have a service from Moville to Rimouski almost identical in point of time with the New York service. It will take six days with 17-knot steamers. With the exception of one or two of the 4 greyhounds,' the time to New Y'ork is about six days. Now, it is a matter for serious consideration whether it is worth going to an increased expenditure, varying from three-quarters of a million to-a million and a quarter, for the sake of shortening the time by 14 or 15 hours. I leave my hon. friend to consider that question. But I want to point out to him tha* the difference between 17 knots and 20 I


Richard John Cartwright: I am much obliged for the hon. gentleman's consideration, and, if I find myself tired, I will retain my seat. With respect to the points mentioned by the hon. gentleman, I may say that I believe that the tonnage of these vessels is to be from S,000 to 10,000 tons. My deputy thinks they will be 10,000 tons. They are the turbines, which, as hon. gentlemen are aware, is a form now coming into considerable favour.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does not the coutract provide what tonnage they shall be ?


Richard John Cartwright: Not specifically as to tonnage, but it provides for their effective speed, and that is about the least tonnage they can have to give that speed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I did not understand the right hon. gentleman to say whether it is intended that they should come up to Montreal.


Richard John Cartwright: Yes, so I understood from the Messrs. Allan.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Does the right hon. gentleman know whether there is any provision for cold storage accommodation ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes, that is expressly provided for.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If I have taken the right hon. gentleman's figures correctly, the average speed of the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian ' last year was not more than fourteen knots ?


Richard John Cartwright: No, I do not think it was.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: I have tried every possible means but I cannot induce the steamship owners to tender on better terms.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The situation will be this, as the right hon. gentleman knows is the case, unhappily, at the present time-that, while we are subsidizing vessels to carry the Canadian mails, the overwhelming bulk of our mails is being taken to New York and sent thence in British or foreign bottoms.


Richard John Cartwright: But my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) will note that there is a steamer going out of New York every day. Under these circumstances it is impossible for us to provide for more than a fraction of our own correspondence. More->
over, from points west of Kingston, the mails would naturally go by New York as being the shorter route. From Kingston eastward our correspondence, including the correspondence of Montreal and the maritime provinces, will go by the Canadian route.	[DOT]


Edward Frederick Clarke: There have been, as the right hon. gentleman knows, repeated memorials addressed to the government favouring the establishment of what may be fairly called a fast Atlantic line.


Richard John Cartwright: That is true, and as the hon. gentleman knows we have advertised and tried in every way to obtain terms for such a service. But" the figures have been extremely high.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We went so far on one occasion as to secure the model of a new


Richard John Cartwright: style of ship which, it was supposed, would revolutionize Atlantic travel. But that result does not seem to have been attained. But the right hon. gentleman will not say that 15 knots an hour is what is desired by the commercial bodies of this country, and he knows that our passenger traffic is being disintegrated because we have no vessels comparing in luxury and comfort with many of the steamships sailing from New York.


Richard John Cartwright: I think my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) will tell the hon. gentleman that the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian ' are great favourites with the travelling public.


Edward Frederick Clarke: With the people of Montreal-they have to go by that route.


Richard John Cartwright: No, they could go by New York. But in the summer these boats are well filled. As to the speed, I have made many inquiries, and I find that there are only a very small number of persons who are willing to pay considerably for the increased speed of 20 knots as against 17 knots. The hon. gentleman knows that all you gain by a 20-knot vessel would be fifteen hours in the transit between Moville and Rimouski. He can satisfy himself by making the calculation. It is a serious question whether it is worth while for the people of Canada to pay three-quarters of a million or a million more than we are paying now in order to shorten the passage by fifteen hours, particularly when we shall have to use vessels that will carry extremely little freight.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There is an increase of ,f!85,000 in the vote, yet the mails will go practically as they have been going.


Richard John Cartwright: That is true, but we get a very much better service than before. If we get these vessels to make the passage in six days between Moville and Rimouski on the average it will go far to give us the service the hon. gentleman desires. We find, on examination, that the vessels running from New York at the rate of 17 knots are very extensively patronized in comparison with the ' Lucania ' and vessels of that class. The latter vessels, such as the ' Cedric,' I believe, are designed for 17 knots and not for an excessive speed. The cost of increased speed is enormous. Perhaps the hon. gentleman has not examined that point, but if he has examined it he will know that every additional knot involves huge increased expenses.


Edward Frederick Clarke: To have a six-day passage from Rimouski to Moville, it would be necessary to obtain 10 knots on the average. It is not contemplated by the right hon. gentleman, however, that this service is to give much more than 14 knots.


Richard John Cartwright: I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) is a little

underrating the speed of tbe ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: If we had the record of the passages of the last few months we could get at it exactly.


Richard John Cartwright: I can send it over to my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) if he wishes to examine it. He was asking the average time from Moville to Rimouski.
I have here the figures of the time of thirty trips from Rimouski to Moville. and I find. the average is seven days five hours.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of all the mail boats ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes. of all the mail boats.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What boats are in the mail service ?


Richard John Cartwright: The ' Bavarian,' * Tunisian,' Parisian,' Pretor-ian ' (occasionally), and the ' Ionian.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: What was the average speed of the ' Parisian ' and the ' Ionian ' ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not think it is increasing by the Canadian route. I will have to apply to the Post Office for details, but I am certain there has been no material change.


Richard Blain: You don't expect any material change from the Increased cost ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not think so. I cannot venture to promise the House that there will be any alteration in that respect. We hope that with thoroughly comfortable and first-class boats there will be a considerable increase in the traffic, but I do not expect any increase in the mail matter and I Hunk the Post Office has cotne to that conclusion too. Heretofore the passage has ranged from seven to ten days, and it will be a very material improvement if we can establish on ocean ferry not exceeding six days.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that for all time to come a very large proportion of Canadian mail matter will go via New York ?


Richard John Cartwright: The average of the ' Parisian ' is nearly as fast as the ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian.' The ' Ionian ' has made fair passages, but she is not quite as fast. I had a little memorandum made for my own information as to the relative cost of the various grades of steamers. The proportions are somewhat as follows :	15 knots would represent 34 ; 17
knot would represent 49 ;	20 knots would
represent 80, and 22 knots would represent 100. It is worth noting that the cost of 20 knots is very nearly double the cost of 17 knots. It is hoped the turbine system will enable us to get a greater speed at a less cost.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We are practically adding 50 per cent to get one knot, or one knot and a half increased speed.


Richard John Cartwright: About two knots. We propose that the 17 knot boats must do the service in six days and the others in six and a half days. The argument is that during the summer the two 17 knot steamers must make the passage in six days under penalties, and the ' Tunisian ' and 'Bavarian ' must not exceed seven days.


Richard Blain: Does the minister expect that a larger proportion of the mail matter will go by the new steamers ?


Richard John Cartwright: I doubt. While New York is sending out one steamer per day, I think the bulk of our mail matter will go that way.


Richard Blain: The figures given last session show that only one-seventh of our mail matter went by the Canadian route and the balance by New York.


Richard John Cartwright: It is not in my department precisely, but I am afraid that a very large proportion will always go by New York. They have a steamer per day and they are rather likely to increase than to diminish, and under these eir-cumstances we must make up our minds that a large proportion of our mail matter will go by that route.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: A great object in having fast steamers between Canada and England is for the despatch of the mails. Whatever the reason for the change in public sentiment of recent years, the tendency of passengers going to Europe is to seek steamers which afford great comfort and accommodation, such as the ' Celtic ' and ' Cedric,' rather than great speed. If we only have a weekly steamer of very fast speed it does . not help us very much with reference to the mails. That is why it occurs to many people, that until we can have an extremely fast service between Canadian ports and European ports, we will not have very much use for a fast Atlantic service. If we had a three or four day service between Newfoundland and the -coast of Ireland there is no doubt that it would have a material effect on the carrying of the mails by such a route, and I should think passengers too. The 1 Tunisian ' and 1 Bavarian' now afford improved accommodation, and the securing of a large number of passengers through Canadian ports is a matter of some importance. I would like to ask the minister if he has made ample provision in the new contract in connection with these two turbine steamers, for really superior passenger accommodation ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes. The Messrs. Allan have submitted the plans
ei63

to me and they have apparently made ample provision for the comfort and convenience of a very large number of passengers on these steamers.


John William Bell: What would be the time of these boats between Halifax and Moville ?


Richard John Cartwright: That is a winter trip, and twelve hours longer are allowed than to Rimouski.


Mr. WM. ROSS (Victoria).: The danger is that in coming to the banks of Newfoundland1' in thick foggy weather, when the banks are dotted with Ashing schooners, these steamers have to reduce their speed for the safety of themselves and the other craft in these waters. Sometimes the fog continues until you get into the St. Lawrence, and I am not so certain that the speed of steamers on that route can be very largely increased over the present rate.


Mr. E. D. SMITH.: Do I understand that the subsidies are given only to these four steamers-the two new ones and the ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian ?' Or would any of the old steamers be included ?


Richard John Cartwright: 
Mr.  E. D.@: (SMITH. All boats of the Allan Line't


Richard John Cartwright: All boats that are permitted to go ; but a special provision has been inserted that forty out of fifty-two trips must be performed by the new steamers or the ' Bavarian ' or the * Tunisian.'


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Does the new contract cover all these vessels ?


Richard John Cartwright: It covers the two new steamers, with the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian,' and as substitutes on occasion the ' Ionian ' and ' Parisian.'


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What is the time fixed for the first sailing of the turbine steamers ?


Richard John Cartwright: One is to start during the month of August next, and the second one on or before the opening of navigation in the St. Lawrence river in the spring.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is there any penalty attached for their failure to keep the dates ?


Richard John Cartwright: They are to receive a much larger subsidy, and the Messrs. Allan. I believe, have been pushing the construction of these vessels with all expedition. They have had some trouble from strikes, and I do not know that -we can depend on the vessel being delivered in the month of August. I am in correspondence with them on that subject now.


Richard John Cartwright: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Are the vessels begun ?


Richard John Cartwright: Oh, yes. ' They are all but ready for delivery. My hon. friend is very incredulous.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: We have been waiting a long time for that service.


Richard John Cartwright: Before the contract was signed w7e had notice that they were under way.


William Ross: They are not like the dredges for Nova Scotia which have been under construction for the last three or four years, but are not finished yet.


Richard John Cartwright: That is the ' W. S. Fielding ' that my hon. friend is referring to ?


Mr.   WM@: ROSS-(Victoria). Yes.


John William Bell: I suppose the hon. minister realizes that the people of Halifax, Sydney, St. John and other ports in the maritime provinces take a very great interest in this subject, and I would not like the impression to go abroad that the government have abandoned the idea of obtaining a really fast service.


Richard John Cartwright: Oh, no.


John William Bell: I rather judge, from what the hon. minister lias said, that he looks upon a modern, up-to-date, first-clpss service, as good as they have in New York, as something beyond the means of this government to provide. Last year, when this matter was up, the premier, I think, said that a thoroughly up-to-date service of twenty-two or twenty-three knots would cost us $1,500,000 a year, which he seemed to think was an outlay beyond the ability of this country. In the maritime provinces, at any rate, I am sure there would not be a ready acquiescence in that view. The people there believe that with the establishment of a service which would be equal in speed, efficiency and quality to that which runs to the port of New York, a large part of the passenger travel and a full supply of express freight would be carried through our ports in the maritime provinces. Therefore the people of Halifax and of those other ports regard it as a matter of great importance to them locally that such a service should be established. A great many take a larger view, however, and look upon it as a matter of national pride and interest. They believe it would have the effect of advertising Canada extensively, placing it on the line of through travel between Europe and Asia, diverting a. large part of the passenger travel of the world through Canadian territory, improving our position as a nation, placing us practically on the front street of the world's travel. That is a posi-I tion which we might hope to attain on ac-

count of our geographical position between the two great masses of the world's population, that is, the European and the eastern Asiatic. Such a service would attract a large portion of the travel which is in a hurry. While it must be admitted that a great many men are choosing the larger, steadier and more comfortable steamers when they wish to travel, there are always a large number of business men and others to whom every moment of time is of great value, and who will therefore always take the line that will give them the assurance of saving a few hours or days. The figures given by the minister show that the most he hopes to attain is an average speed of 14f knots.


Richard John Cartwright: That is putting it rather on the inside. In summer I hope to attain a great deal more.


John William Bell: Take the figures given by the hon. minister, that is what they average.


Richard John Cartwright: My hon. friend will note that the average is very materially reduced by any single vessel making a long passage. The ' Tunisian ' and ' Bavarian ' as a rule make the passage in six days and from ten to fifteen hours, which gives a decent average speed.


John William Bell: Suppose the minister gets an average of 15 knots. That is not a speed which will attract any travel. At that speed the vessels will not take our own mails if there is a change of sending them by a faster route. It may provide an express service, but it will not have the effect which we had hoped for, of giving us a service which will attract any large proportion of the world's passenger travel. It seems to me that the government of Canada should be perfectly willing to spend annually $1,500,000 to secure a really fast service. The large disbursements which would be made by these steamers in this country and by tourists making their way across Canada would largely reimburse the country for the expenditure necessary to provide the service. I hope the minister will give us the assurance that the government had not made up their mind that such a service is hopeless. At the time Mr. Dobell announced to this House that he had made up his mind that not more than 18 knots could be looked for, even such a statement was very disappointing to the House and the country ; but now' the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce assures us that the best this government can do after eight years is to provide a service of 15 knots, which is a liberal estimate of its speed. It really seems as if, instead of making progress, the government in those eight years have been going back. It is perfectly proper that we should recognize the difficulties in the way. They are enormous, and I suppose they are aggravated t'o a certain extent by the class of steamers to be employed. The introduction of the turbine steamers will to a certain extent involve delay. There are of course reasons why ship* owners should hesitate to put themselves to great expenditure, while this matter is still in the experimental stage, it is after all a disappointment to the people to find that instead of being able to realize the 20-knot service as promised in 1896, all that the minister can promise us, with an increased subsidy of $85,000, making $300,000 in all. is a 15-knot service. There is 50 per cent increase in the subsidy and no improvement in the service. It looks as if the matter were one the government are inclined to pooh-pooh, but I hope the minister* will make every effort to give the country the service we require.


Richard John Cartwright: It was partly in view of these considerations that I refused to extend the contract beyond two years, so that we might have time to do something in the direction the hon. gentleman proposes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In what season of the year are the trips to be made by these faster
vessels ?


Richard John Cartwright: Chiefly during the summer months and the earlier part of the winter.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then the slow boats will
do winter service ?


Richard John Cartwright: A portion of the time. It is not proposed that these vessels will all be laid off at the same time.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will these slow boats receive per round trip ?


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: But those slow boats will not be on during the summer.


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the hon. gentleman expect the passage will be made in six days from Rimouski to Moville ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes, six days from the 1st of June to the 1st of November in each year covered by the agreement. ,


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does it require a 16-knot service to do that during the year ?


Richard John Cartwright: It would require a 17-knot service.


Mr. WADE.: it is a very great improvement, because of these two new boats, one will have an average speed of 17 knots and the other will be somewhat faster. I understand that the second boat, which is being built, is likely to be a little speedier, but at any rate we are getting two boats with an average speed of 17 knots. They will be very superior boats. I have had the opportunity of looking at the specideations and diagrams and I consider they will be a great improvement to the service. While it is most desirable we should have the speediest service we can get, there is a good deal in what has been said by my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk), and that is that the travelling public to-day are looking more for comfort than for great speed. The favourite and most comfortable boats now running out of New York are the 'Cedric' and 'Arabic', and those large comfortable boats have not a speed of over 17 knots. Considering the condition of Canada and her population, if we are able to make from year to year, or every two years, a substantial advance towards securing these very fast steamers, we are accomplishing a great deal. It is a question whether a service of 17 or 18 knots would not be a service quite commensurate with the best interests of Canada. Of course if we could afford to have a daily ferry such as they have in New York, we would be in a position to attract a large proportion of the travel of the United states as well as of Canada, but we cannot hope to do that yet and it will be some time before we can.


John William Bell: How long ?


Fletcher Bath Wade: That will depend on the rapidity with which the country is opened up and advances. The trouble at Halifax was this, that the company could not secure freight for the larger steamers. The ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian ' had to sail out of Halifax several times with very little cargo. Besides the loss of running the ship, there is the danger of navigating a light ship in winter, and the company were forced to put on smaller and inferior vessels. The ' Tunisian ' and ' Bavarian ' are good boats, well fitted up, and with twin screws, and the ' Parisian,' while older and smaller, has always been one of the favourite boats on the Atlantic route. I think we may congratulate ourselves that we have the improvements which are manifest in this contract. When we are able to ship our products of the west from our maritime ports, we will be in a position to secure the very fast and continuous service we are hoping for, and we are confident that will be realized in the near future.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon gentleman's logic is defective. The minister says that these fast boats are not good freight carriers, but the hon. gentleman says that when we are able to secure the freight from the ' Mr. WADE.
west we will have the fast boats. Which is right ?


Fletcher Bath Wade: I think I can make the hon. gentleman understand.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He was trying to put in a bar for the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Not necessarily. I will make my hon. friend understand by telling him that all big steamship companies run their very fast boats at a loss and make up the loss on their other business with their other boats. Not one of these ocean greyhounds, which run out of New York, is run at a profit, but the profit on the company's other business compensates for the loss on the swift boats.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
Richard John Cartwright: Speaking from recollection, I think the average passage is two or three days less.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the right hon. gentleman to say that the average passage to-day was eight or ten days.


Richard John Cartwright: No, I said that the average rate in summer was seven days.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the minister to say that these new steamers would be so much in advance of the ordinary rate to-day that the difference would be practically the difference between ten days and seven days.


Richard John Cartwright: I was referring to the old times.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But he was speaking of the work done by the steamers in use today, the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian.'


Richard John Cartwright: They have not taken ten days or anything like it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He told us that the average speed was 144 knots an hour. That was the very best he could say, and. after carefully revising his calculation, he said it would be 141 knots, or, perhaps it would be
safe to say 14 knots. That does not seem to me to be much in advance of what it was.


Richard John Cartwright: The hon. gentleman will find that the average rate is considerably in advance of what it was seven years ago.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the right hon. gentleman give us some data showing on what he bases that statement ?


Richard John Cartwright: A few years ago the passages were made in eleven, twelve or thirteen days-eleven was rather exceptional.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What ships made that rate ?


Richard John Cartwright: The ships of the various lines. We changed the service once or twice. Some of the Allan liners, some of the Dominion and some of the Beaver liners were employed. But they certainly were very inferior in point of speed to the average of the present day.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of course, the right hon. gentleman has the data on which that statement is made or he would not make it ? Will he be kind enough to bring the data before the committee .?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Let us have it at three o'clock.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Another element in the situation that we ought not to overlook is this : Under the present system people coming to Canada from across the Atlantic generally land in New York-in a foreign country. They pass through the great state of New York, and sometimes a great many other states, before they reach Canada. Many of these are intending investors, and, seeing the advantages of the United States and the attractions for investment there, they are apt to be induced to invest their money in the United States instead of in Canada. Why should we land our passengers in a foreign country ? If they landed in Canada and went four thousand miles across our country before reaching the Pacific, they could not but be impressed with the advantages offered by Canada for investment of capital. It seems to me that it w'ould be of incalculable advantage to us to have passengers coming to Canada land in Canada direct.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: How can you compel people to land in Canada ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You cannot compel them, but if you will bring them quicker into Canada directly than via New York they will come in by the faster line. If I start from Toronto to come to Ottawa to do business. and there are three trains a day and one goes a little faster than the other, I

will of course take the fastest one. So it is with a business man. We are living in a fast age, in an age of speed, and we will take the fastest trains and the fastest line of steamers.


Archibald Campbell: But people who cross the Atlantic ocean generally do it for pleasure, and they prefer to go through a foreign port.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I said there was a percentage who travelled for pleasure, and in that case I presume they would look rather for comfort than speed. But the great enterprising business class of men, which is of value to us because they make their investments here, are the people that we should invite to land upon our shores instead of landing in New York before they reach Canada. These are considerations of immense value to the Canadian people, and we are not equal to the occasion if we allow this state of things to go on from year to year that has been going the last seven years, without any substantial improvement except what we are offered to-day in the shape of these two new steamers that are to be built, and even these I understand are only an experiment.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I do not wish the hon. gentleman to misquote me before the committee. I did not say that the ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian ' were fast enough, I said they were satisfactory to us.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: X understood the hon. member to say that the service had proved satisfactory to the public.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I said nothing of the kind, I said these two boats, the ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian,' were satisfactory to the people, and the ' Parisian ' was an old favourite, these two boats as compared with the others would be a distinct improvement in the service and one that would be pleasing to the people. The hon. gentleman also said we had slow boats enough for carrying grain and freight. That is all very well, we have slow boats enough for carrying freight, but where is the freight to put in them ? The freight was not there last winter, and as a consequence they could not run these large boats, the ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian,' and they had to put on the ' Laurentian,' the ' Pretorian ' and boats of that kind. Now if we can get freight to these ocean ports which will fill the slower boats, it will build up the business of the country and the company can afford to run swifter boats. Now with regard to the pretention of the hon. gentleman that the people -want to travel by swift boats, he is entirely mistaken,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I did not make any such statement. I said no doubt those who travel for pleasure would look for comfort rather than speed, but I said that the great enterprising business class of men desired to go by the fastest boats.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Fletcher Bath Wade: I think I know something about the desires of people who travel across the Atlantic on pleasure bent. The hon. gentleman is quite wrong. There is a certain class of business men who need to travel in great haste and will take the fastest line, but the great mass of the travelling public I am speaking about are looking principally for comfortable boats, which are not what we style ocean greyhounds. Now if we can 'secure two of these boats for this service running to Canada, it is going to be a great benefit, and a great advantage in other directions, it is going to improve the service. This contract expires at the end of two years, after which we may be able to make still more progress than we are making now. As I said before, if we are able to carry our products to the ocean ports for shipment there so that we can give these boats business and trade, there is no doubt but that we will get in due time the fast service that we are all so anxious to secure.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member evidently misunderstood me, at least he misrepresents me. I had not a word of complaint with regard to the proposed new steamers, because I think they are certainly a great improvement on the old ones, they are faster. But what I complain of is that we have made so little headway during the last seven years, and that the best that is offered us to-day are two more boats that will make but little better speed than the old ones.


Edward Frederick Clarke: As far as the item under consideration is concerned it doesn't make much difference as to whether people prefer to travel by a slow boat or a fast boat. We are asked to add fifty per cent to the sum that has been voted for mail subsidies, and we are only getting an accelerated speed of a knot and a half in the hour. The question is what will be the result so far as the mail service is concerned from this increased expenditure of $85,000 ? It will result in increasing the average speed by a knot or a knot and a half an hour, and that is all. What is the advantage to be gained by the people from this $85,000 of additional expenditure ? This subsidy, as I understand, is given for the carriage of the mails ; but if the mails continue to pass through the New York post office for the purpose of being transmitted to the old country by a faster line than we can offer, what advantage are we going to get ? That is what we want to get at. The question is not whether the people prefer to travel by a slow boat or a fast one ; we want to know what advantage we are going to derive from this fifty per cent additional expenditure so far as the carriage of the mails in concerned ? If the mails are to be sent via New York what advantage are we to obtain from this increased subsidy ? Before the item passes, I would

like the hon. gentleman to bring us the particulars of the acceleration of speed which has been accomplished during the past eight years. We have, I think, a record of the average speed for the year before last; we want to see wherein the average time of crossing has been reduced during the past eight years. The hon. gentleman must have these particulars in his office, and when the committee resumes at three o'clock I hope he will be able to give them to us.


Richard John Cartwright: I will
see what we have.
At one o'clock, committee took recess.
Committee resumed at three o'clock.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The subject before the committee is the further consideration of resolution 153, ocean and mail service between Great Britain and Canada.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: Before we proceed with the discussion of this item, might I ask the minister whether it is true that an official of the department .has been sent up to Sarnia, to the Standard Oil Refinery, to look after the interests of the producers ?


Richard John Cartwright: An
official was sent up to report on the best method of distributing the bounty, if that is what my hon. friend refers to.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Then I understand that instead of going to the producing district, the agent was sent to the Standard refinery to find out the best way of distributing the bounty.


Richard John Cartwright: I understand he went ail over.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What might I under stand from ' all over ' ?


Richard John Cartwright: He went to both parties, the refiners and the producers, and examined the mode of production in the district generally.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Did he go to Pet-rolea ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The information I have is very different.


Richard John Cartwright: I can only give the information that I have received from the department that he was there.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the minister been able to procure a statement as to the average time and average speed of the vessels during the last six or eight years ? The right hon. gentleman said that the time had been cut down by two or three days.


Richard John Cartwright: I was referring more particularly lo xhe time made in 1895 and 1897.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will we be able to get a return for the average time in 1895 and 1897 and the names of the ships ?


Richard John Cartwright: I have not the names of the ships. But from Mo-ville to Halifax in 1895 they took ten days and ten hours on the average, in 1897 ten days and 22 hours.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That was an improvement in favour of 1895 as against 1897. Has the hon. gentleman the times for the years since 1897 ?


Richard John Cartwright: No. I have not the time for the whole period.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In view of that statement that the time has been reduced by two or three days from what it was in 1896 it would be well to have it.


Richard John Cartwright: I shall get that but it may take some little time to procure it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the minister a reasonable assurance that as the result of this new contract with the Allans and the increase of the subsidies by $85,000 a year, the Canadian mails will go by these ships from Canadian ports ?


Richard John Cartwright: A certain proportion but not more.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the right hon gentleman has not a reasonable assurance that as a result of this increased subsidy of $85,000 a year the Canadian mails will go by Canadian ships what p rticular advantage is there ?


Richard John Cartwright: course it is open to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) to move to return to the old condition if he likes. The advantage is that we get a much better service than ever before for passengers and freight and incidentally for the mails. The hon. gentleman knows very well that we do not profess or pretend that this will bring us any lhrge additional proportion of the mails ; I do not think that it is to be looked for. So long as there is a daily service from New York, as I have explained again and again, the vast proportion of the mails will go by New York and not by Canadian lines.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: For these vessels running 17 knots.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The two turbines ?[DOT]


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: To induce the Allans to put on these two ships on the St. Lawrence


Richard John Cartwright: That is

$


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The right hon. minister says that fresh contracts have been made within the last year. Has he made any provision to protect the shippers in regard to freight rates ? Are the freight rates to be in the future as in the past season very much higher out of Montreal than on boats from New York, even although we subsidize these boats to the exteut of $10,000 for each trip of the new boats ?


Richard John Cartwright: There is a provision under which control can be exercised over them, but I cannot pretend to isay that we will be able to obtain as low raltes from Montreal as from New York. At the present time, as the hon. gentleman probably knows, the rates from Montreal are very low indeed, lower than from New York.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: There is very little freight going now and when there is little freight offered the boats always lower the rates. It is when a large cargo is going over that it is of the utmost importance to the producers that the rates ^should be as low as possible, but that is the time the steamboats raised the rates, when they could really afford to carry cheaper. The hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) complains that these boats get light cargoes from Halifax and St. John. That was not the case from Montreal last year ; they went out fully loaded, but the rates were 20 per cent higher than out of Boston and New York, and I would submit that in making these contracts where large subsidies are given, the government might protect the producers in that by stipulating as has been done in some cases that they should not charge a higher rate than is charged by vessels of similar speed from Boston, New York or Portland, and I submit that unless that has been done in this case, a very great injustice has been done to the producer. The minister stated also that cold storage was to be provided on these two new boats.


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I believe there is already cold storage on the other boats. Is there any provision in the contracts with regard to the temperature in these cold storage chambers ?


Richard John Cartwright: The Minister of Agriculture defines proper cold storage.
Mr: E. D. SMITH. The Minister of Agriculture states that it is impossible for him Mr. CLARKE.
to control the temperature of these cold storage chambers after the original contract expired. There was an opportunity when these contracts were made to obtain absolute control by the Minister of Agriculture of t'he temperature of these chambers.


Richard John Cartwright: The stipulation is for cold storage, but there is no particular provision as to temperature.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: That is the essential feature of cold storage. Cold storage is of very little use, indeed, unless the temperature is absolutely as required for the various commodities that are shipped. In fact it is not cold storage at all in the proper sense unless it is almost perfect and kept at the mark required by the various commodities that go forward. The producers and shippers complain that although large sums have been spent by the government in assisting steamships to provide cold storage still there is no control whatever over the chambers. On some vessels and on some voyages the temperature is absolutely correct. The stuff is carried over under proper conditions but on others again it is a long way from being perfect, and the Minister of Agriculture complains that he has no control and no power. It seems to me that if he has no power, if these contracts have expired, there was an opportunity in the making of these contracts to secure proper control.


Richard John Cartwright: So far as the Allan Line was concerned, no complaints were made to us as to cold storage. I am not prepared to speak as to the other vessels that had cold storage accommodation.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I may say that they are a long way from being perfect. Some are very good, but many are far, far from perfect or what they ought to be, and the only way we can be assured that the temperature will be properly kept is for the government to have an absolute control over the cold storage. If the government have control over one line and can assure the shippers that they will get proper accommodation on one line, then of course the other lines which do not get subsidies will have to do the same thing or they would not get the trade. When the government is giving this subsidy to the one line and making this contract they have an opportunity to absolutely control the situation.


Richard John Cartwright: In case the cold storage is imperfect I have power to reduce the subsidy under the terms of the contract.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Perhaps a more important matter than the cold storage is the ventilation of these ships. Almost all our cheese, which is one of our chief articles

of export, and our apples go over, not in cold storage and not in what we call cool air storage, but in the ordinary holds of the vessels, which ought to he ventilated. It is a very small matter to secure that ventilation and it appears to me that the government have no power over the steamships in this matter. All that has been done apparently is that the Minister of Agriculture has sent a letter asking the steamship companies to properly ventilate the holds. Some have done this and others have not. There was an opportunity when these contracts were being made to provide for ventilation of the holds. I would like to ask the minister if that has been done.


Fletcher Bath Wade: With regard to this particular line of steamships the apple shippers of Nova Scotia are not so much concerned ; they do not carry very many of the apples from Nova Scotia, inasmuch as their destination is Liverpool, while our market is London. . With regard to New Brunswick, I have heard of no complaint except in one case, that of a steamship which was in distress and put in at the Azores, with the result that her cargo was landed in bad condition. The Canadian , Pacific Railway boats and other lines that carry fruit have landed their cargoes in good condition, and no complaint has been made about them. I would like to see the government retain a control over the rates charged by the steamship lines. I do not know anything about the rates on grain, but I think the government should have some control over the freight rates on fruit.
1 take exception to the statement made by the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Clarke), that this vote is for a mail subsidy alone. It is a subsidy for a mail and a steamship service, and I think the freight service which we are able to obtain is very important, and should be well looked after. So far as my province is concerned, I must say that very good work has been done as regards the shipment of fruit. The stringency cf the provisions of the contract which the government has exacted from the steamship people lias compelled them to carry the fruit over in a very much better condition than formerly. lLast year it gave absolute satisfaction, except in the case of one steamer, to which I have directed the ministers attention.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How does the hon gentleman know that fruit and apples and cheese are carried over in such perfect con-ditto n ?


Mr WADE.: I did not speak of cheese ; I referred to the apples shipped from the province of Nova Scotia and from New Brunswick.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How does the hon. gentleman know ?


Fletcher Bath Wade: I know it in the same way you would know anything ; from informa-1974
tion I have gathered. I have been at pains to inquire. I have been on the docks in London and have seen the fruit delivered Irom the steamers. I have been at the market, and have seen the fruit there. I have conversed with the leading shippers throughout the Annapolis valley, and from their testimony I am justified in forming my opinion.


Mr.   CLARICE@: Is this subsidy given for the shipping of apples, or is it a mail subsidy ? What we want to know is what advantage the country will get from this additional mail subsidy of $85,000.


Mr WADE.: The steamship lines that carry the bulk of the fruit from Nova Scotia are the Furness-Withy and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and a sun-sidy has been granted to them. I do not say that they do not get any cargoes in St. John or Halifax. I said they did not get sufficient cargo, and that is a fact. I went over in the ' Pretorian ' myself when she had only one-third of a cargo, and I speak feelingly on the matter, because the steamer rolled a good deal in consequence.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The hon. gentleman 'Mr Wade) seems to think that because he saw some apples landed in good condition on the other side, our shipments of apples have been carried over in perfect condition. The fact is that, although a good many mules may have been carried over in good condition, there also have been a good many carried over in bad condition.


Fletcher Bath Wade: From Nova Scotia ?


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Yes.


Mr WADE.: What ship delivered her cargo in bad shape, and whose fruit did she carry ?


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I could give the hon. gentleman the information with a little trouble. Some of these same steamers went from Montreal and the ventilation was not much changed in the meantime. It is a very easy matter to prove this by putting one thermograph where the fruit is carried and another thermograph on deck, so that the temperatures might be compared. The Minister of Agriculture told us that he had no power to control the ventilation on these vessels, but the time to get that power is when you are making these contracts. The contract has now been made for another two years, and there is no provision made that the Minister of Agriculture or his officers shall have power to board these vessels and see that the regulations are enforced. Again the government have let the opportunity -slip by them.


Haughton Lennox: The Minister of Trade and Commerce has announced that he is satisfied with an Atlantic service of about fourteen and a half knots, and he has

also announced that we will have to content ourselves with the fact that possibly for all time to come the bulk of our mails will be carried by way of New York. I do not accept either of these propositions as being correct; and I do not think the people of Canada will calmly agree that we are not to have a fast Atlantic service, or that the bulk of the Canadian mail matter must be carried by New York. In 189G both political parties had committed themselves to a fast Atlantic service, and the Conservative government before leaving office had made a contract for such a service by steamers of 20 knots or 21 knots an hour. That is confirmed by a statement made last session by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and which is reported in ' Hansard.' page 14161. When the Liberal government came to power, for reasons which have never been satisfactorily explained to the country, they saw fit to put an end to the proposed arrangement with the Allans, and they told us that they would secure faster vessels with better accommodation for passengers and freight. Accordingly, in 1S97, the minister (Sir Richard Cartwright) brought down a resolution with reference to the Petersen contract.
At that time the present government thought that any service of less than twenty or twentyone knots was too slow, and that it was an absolute necessity in the interest of the country that we should have a fast service. What did the hon. gentlemen then promise to the country ? They promised to furnish steamships of 10,000 gross registered tons instead of 8,500 tons, and to maintain on the line from port to port across the Atlantic an average speed of 500 knots per day, or twenty-one knots per hour. They promised, in connection with such service and forming part thereof, to provide and maintain fast tenders of the torpedo-boat type, of a speed of not less than twenty-two knots per hour, to meet the steamers on their apjiroach to Canada, to act as pilot boats, so as to ensure in the navigation of such ships both safety and speed, and that the said steamships should be constructed, fitted and maintained in all respects equal to the best Atlantic steamers now afloat. That contract was said to have been consummated, and it was represented on that occasion, not only by the right hon. gentleman who introduced it, but by those who followed him. that it was absolutely necessary in the interest of the country. To-day we. not only have the right hon. gentleman intimating that we shall have to put up with having the mails of this countrv carried by American vessels, but that 14j'knots an hour is a respectable service for Canada [DOT] and we have other hon. gentlemen-for instance, the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) saying that it is a mistake for any government to think that a fast Atlantic service is desirable-that what the people


Haughton Lennox: want is slow and gentle travelling-not to go very rapidly, but to go with exceptional comfort. What the Petersen contract was said to secure was both exceptional comfort, high-class travelling, and a speed of twenty-one knots an hour. That we had secured that was announced by the right hon. gentleman who leads the House, in a speech which he made on the 6th of October, 1897, in the city of Toronto. With a considerable flourishing of trumpets he said that we were going to have an immediate end put to the Americans carrying the'mails of Canada, and Canada was going to secure her own carrying trade and also the carrying trade of a great portion of the western states as well. This is what the right hon.-gentleman said on that occasion :
Sir Frank Smith's government had undertaken to give to that service a bonus, a subsidy, of $750,000 a year. We thought it was too much. We thought we could do it for less, and we succeeded in making a contract with a firm for a subsidy of $500,000, saving to the country therefore the sum of $250,000. We contracted with the firm of Petersen, Tate &- Co., a Newcastle firm, a firm rcm-' posed as we ascertained, of men of the highest. honour, of the highest integrity, and the highest competency in their profession.
This is almost like the Transcontinental Railway question. When the right hon. gentleman speaks of any man with whom he makes contracts, he always refers to him as a man of the highest integrity, the highest honour, and the highest qualities of every kind. But in the case of the Transcontinental Railway it may turn out as did that of the fast Atlantic service, that he had not investigated as fully as he thought. The right hon. gentleman went on to say :
Mr. Petersen and Mr. Tate have had a good many obstacles to overcome, as is always the case with men who launch a new idea into the world. Their idea was a new one, and therefore it met with objections and with discouragement from more than one class of people ; and not later than a few few weeks ago, or a few days ago only it was stated that the scheme of Mr. Petersen had fallen down, that it must he considered as absolutely a thing of the past. Mr. Petersen and Mr. Tate were at work. They work as men always work when they want to succeed. They said nothing ; they answered no accusations ; but to-day I have a telegram from my friend and colleague, Mr. Fielding, the Minister of Finance, to this effect :
' Petersen has made to-day the deposit required by the contract.' (Loud cheering and great enthusiasm.)
And yet these hon. gentlemen are prepared to tell the people now that they were all wrong on that occasion, that there is no necessity for a fast Atlantic service, and that we ought to be content with 14J knots an hour and with seeing the hulk of our mails go by American boats. Further :
It is with joy indeed that I welcome this explosion of satisfaction at the announce-
%

ment that this scheme had not tailed, hut that it is to be carried through. I know that in some quarters this idea of having this passenger traffic amongst us was not popular ; but, Sir, let me say to you that if there is a patriotic idea in the land it is the idea that we should not only carry the freight, but carry the passengers between America and Europe. (Hear, hear, and applause. >
We1 can do it, we ought to do it, and now it is no longer in doubt.
Further on he said :
This line of steamers shall be completed probably within two years, certainly within three years. And when we have this class of steamers afloat on the ocean 1 have no hesitation, such is my confidence in the scheme -and it is a confidence which must be borne by every man who has looked into the subject-that we shall have the great bulk not only of Canadian traffic, but of American ' traffic as well. Sir, remember this, what I say is no idle boasting. Remember that the St. Lawrence route is the shortest of all routes. Now, as you know, all men have an aversion to the sea-I know I have-(laughter)-and my experience is not exceptional in this respect ; all men have a terror of the sea ; but when tourists know and are aware that upon the Canadian line, with a class of steamers having a speed of twenty knots an hour, equal in comfort to the best afloat on the ocean, there will be no more than four days between land and land-(applause)- the Canadian line will be patronized as no other. (Great cheering.) What will be the case when this line is in operation ? The case will be this : that a passenger taking the steamer at Moville, say, if Moville is to be the Irish port, within less than four days will be in the strait of Belle Isle, and then within less than one day, or twenty-four hours, will be in the harbour of Quebec, and one day's sailing on the beautiful St. Lawrence with its magic scenery and free from all discomforts of the sea. (Applause.) When we have this line with us we shall not only have the entire Canadian traffic, but we must as a necessity have the larger proportion of the American traffic. This that I spy may perhaps seem presumptuous. It is not. At all events, if it is, I have such an unbounded faith in my country that I believe every word that I say now and I am sure it will come out to be true also.
I am not finding any fault with the language of the right hon. gentleman in Toronto. It was intended as a campaign speech. He speaks a little wide of the mark, according to the contract his government had entered into, even if they had succeeded in consummating the bargain. What I am complaining of. and what will disappoint the country after so many years, is that it turns out to have been mere vain boasting, for we are not securing our own traffic or the carriage of our own mails, and we are about to spend enormous sums of money, not for securing the traffic of the Orient through this country, while the government are allowing the traffic of Canada to be diverted into other channels. Instead of making a retrograde movement, we ought to
make a movement in advance. We had a better contract with the Allans in 1896. Even the Petersen contract was an improvement on the present one, as under it we were entitled to a 21-knot an hour service, and we should now be looking for something better than a weekly service. Having regard to the improvements That are being made in other countries and the keen competition that must always exist between this country and the United States, we should be taking a step in advance and demanding greater facilities for the export of our products than we contemplated securing in 1896. But instead we are advancing in the fashioin of the crab, backwards and I regret exceedingly that the minister has seen fit to express his perfect content with present conditions. I regret that he should contemplate so philosophically a service giving only an average ol* fourteen and a half knots per hour, owing to which our mails are still being carried to a large extent by steamers sailing from the United States. And in answer to the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain), the right hon. gentleman complacently assured us that as far as he could see we would have to look to a continuance of this state of things.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In view of past experience, it seems to me that this contract is very loosely drawn from the point of view of the interests Of this country. We had very elaborate information given us by the Minister of Agriculture regarding the contracts he had made with steamship companies for the carriage of Canadian produce. But as regards that matter, I find this short clause in the contract:
It. is understood and agreed that each, steamer, while running under this contract, shall be fitted with adequate cold storage accommodation to the satisfaction of the minister.
There is no provision that the company shall keep the cold storage at any particular temperature suitable to the requirements of the class of produce sent or that they will provide any extensive plant of cold storage or to what extent. That is altogether optional with them. They do not say how many or how few tons they will provide to carry by cold storage. There is another very important omission, and that is what rates shall be charged those who use the cold storage. A few years ago we found that our shippers could not avail themselves of the cold storage plants because the rates charged were too high, and they fell back on the old system. Afterwards the Minister of Agriculture took credit for having provided against all these contingencies by a specific contract in which fixed rates were stipulated. But in this contract, we find no such safeguard. All that is provided is that these steamers when running under this contract shall be fitted with adequate cold storage accommodation to the satisfaction

of the minister. Are the courts to determine what is adequate cold storage ?


Richard John Cartwright: That will be determined by the department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the company provide cold storage, they will probably stand on their rights and say they have complied with the contract, no matter whether the cold storage they have supplied is suitable for the people or not. The hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) has told us that there was an admirable system of cold storage provided for the carrying of apples from Annapolis.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Not cold storage, but forced ventilation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood that he was talking cold storage.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Not at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Well, ventilated chambers if you will.	*


Fletcher Bath Wade: Not ventilated chambers, the whole ship is ventilated by forced ventilation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They are all ventilated in any event.


Fletcher Bath Wade: No, they are not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But whether that ventilation is suitable is another thing.


Fletcher Bath Wade: It is suitable to the shippers.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman has told us that he knows all about it, and when I asked him where he got his information, he told us he was standing on the dock and saw Canadian apples being landed in England.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I got my information from the shipper.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman's information does not agree with the Minister of Agriculture's Report.which says distinctly that a great deal of the fruit was spoiled.


Fletcher Bath Wade: That the fruit shipped from Nova Scotia was spoiled ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Prom Nova Scotia and other parts of Canada I understood.


Fletcher Bath Wade: The hon. gentleman is entirely mistaken. No fruit from Nova Scotia was spoiled last year except one cargo, and that was a case in which the ship broke down and had to put into another port.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman's denial of the minister's report, I do not accept as of any value. I am taking the report of the minister.


William Ross: The agents in London have been sending out circulars describing the splendid condition in which the' apples of Nova Scotia arrived.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They say that these apples were packed much better than the apples from Ontario.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Well, I can give my experience right from the county from which I come. A gentleman shipping apples both from Ontario and Annapolis is my authority for the statement I am about to make. He told me that he sold apples from the Georgian Bay district higher than the best apples from Nova Scotia. I will give that gentleman's name. He is a Mr. Carson, who has been several years engaged in the trade. He said that if we would provide suitable cold storage for the carriage of fruit, we would get much more remunerative prices. In this contract there is no provision for ventilating chambers or for anything except adequate cold storage, and the Minister of Trade and Commerce is to be the judge. But you require different temperatures for different kinds of freight. Professor Robertson told us a few years ago that when you ship butter, you must ship it in cold storage of about 35 degrees Fahrenheit. But if you ship apples you must have a different temperature. The temperature must not be too low or the fruit will be injured, and when brought to the air will deteriorate very rapidly and be all covered with moisture that spoils it. Grapes require a different cold storage, tomatoes require a different cold storage, and so with peaches ; and, if suitable cold storage or ventilation chambers are not provided, the shipment of fruit by this method will be a failure. It is because of this information coming from officers employed by the government who may be regarded as experts In this line that my attention is drawn to the fact that no adequate provision is made in this contract for the shipment of these various kinds of fruit. If provision is made for cold storage suitable for each kind of fruit, I cannot find it in the contract. I have already drawn attention also to the fact that no provision is made for rates. The vessel owners may charge any rates they like, even if they make them prohibitory. Unless a proper provision as to rates is made when the contract is entered into, no ordinary business astuteness Is exercised in making the contract. Another thing is that this contract is to be for the carrying of the mails. The minister has told us more than once that he does not look for any great change in the carriage of the mails in the future, but that the bulk of our mails will continue to go by New York.


Richard John Cartwright: I spoke of the duration of this contract. I think I said it plainly enough to be understood.


Haughton Lennox: I think there is a mistake. The hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blainl asked the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce if we were to understand that for all time to come the mails would continue to be carried as now, and he said ' Yes.'


Richard John Cartwright: I said nothing about all time to come. I was speaking of the duration of this contract.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the right hon: gentleman to say that the fact that a steamer left New York every day while we had only one leaving every week was sufficient reason why the mails should go by New York.


Richard John Cartwright: I was speaking of the present time and of the contract now under consideration.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The right hon. gentleman certainly put the question how we could not, hope to carry the mails from Canada while we had only one steamer a week, while in New York they have a steamer every day. And he said that for that reason, if for no other, that route would certainly be taken.


Richard John Cartwright: Undoubtedly.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yet, this contract is to carry the mails. But if the vessels cannot carry the mails what is the use of our spending the money ?


Richard John Cartwright: Let the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) mo,ve that the vote be struck out and take the sense of the House upon it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But why should I do that ? The improvement, so far as there is an improvement, is one that I desire to see made. But I wish to ascertain whether the country is not paying too much.


Richard John Cartwright: My opinion is that the country is not called upon to pay too much, but if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) is of a different opinion let him take the sense of the House on the question.
Mr. SPRO^JLE. I am simply giving the reasons that lead me to believe that we are paying too much for what we are getting. But I also desire to bring out additional information, and am only making use of the information that the minister has given us with regard to the contract that he asks us to consent to by voting this money.


Richard John Cartwright: You are getting a contract under which, instead of 14J knots, a speed of 17 knots is provided for during half the year and nearly as good during the remainder of the year for two vessels, and 15 knots for the other two vessels. And, in that you are getting a great advance on the present condition of affairs.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: As I understand the contract, there is only one fast vessel to come on in August and the other to come on in the spring, so we do not get two vessels for half the year. If the new invention proves a success of course we shall have the higher speed for a portion of the year.


Richard John Cartwright: But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) will note that [DOT] the payments are strictly on their performance. They do not get the extra payment unless they give the extra service.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 
Fletcher Bath Wade: Did I say anything about cheese ? Why attribute such statements to me ? Surely I repeated it twice showing that I had no reference to cheese but was speaking exclusively of apples shipped from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: But the conditions which would carry cheese over in bad condition would carry apples in bad condition.
It is not a question of cheese or apples, but a question of the condition of the vessel, and whether proper advantage was taken ot the opportunity afforded by the making of this contract to provide for such matters as this. This is a simple matter, but a matter of very great importance to the shippeis ot this country. The government had the opportunity to secure what the Minister of Agriculture says they have not now-control of the situation with regard to this matter. Failure to control the situation means an enormous loss to the producers of cheese and apples and other perishable products simplv through these compartments not being properly ventilated. Some of them may be properly ventilated, but the vast majority of them are not so.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: It would be interesting to have this question settled. Per haps the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) would tell us how many days he spent on the docks, how many visits he made to the markets, and what proportion of the shippers he consulted.


William Ross: And how many apples he ate.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not accused my hon. friend from Annapolis of having eaten a whole cargo. I am talking about his knowledge.


Mr WADE.: I will answer the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) if he wishes to be answered. I must say it is not a very brilliant way of asking questions even if it does come from the hon. gentleman. I suppose he is aware that I did not spend

many days on the docks in London. But I did spend several hours there. I also made visits to the market at Covent Garden, and could give some testimony as to the superiority of the Nova Scotia fruit in the opinion of dealers there, for Nova Scotia fruit was bringing a higher price in the market than the Ontario fruit though the Nova Scotia barrel is considerably smaller. But most of my information I got from shippers and growers. I have talked to scores and hundreds of people in the Annapolis Valley, in the hon. gentleman's native county of King's as well as in my own native county of Annapolis. 1 have communications from many of these people expressing satisfaction with the way the service is performed, with the exception of this cargo of which I have spoken. I do not think the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) would be-believe that I would rise in the House and make a statement of that sort unless I had something to base it upon. It is a matter of vital importance to the people of the Annapolis Valley that their fruit should be transported in proper condition. They are constantly writing and talking to me on the subject, and they are grateful that the service has been improved and are satisfied with it. The fruit has gone forward in good condition and it is only proper that I should state that to the House.


Robert Laird Borden: All this is beside the question. No one has disputed that a very large quantity of apples went over in good condition. But that is not the point, though it is the point to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade) addressed himself. The statement he undertook to make was that all the fruit


Fletcher Bath Wade: Not at all.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade) will allow me-as I understood him, all the fruit went over in good condition, with the exception of one cargo from Nova Scotia. I say he has not shown any information which would justify him in making that statement. There may have been fifty cargoes, for anything he has said, that went over in bad condition. He will not undertake to say that he has investigated even seventy-five per cent of the cargoes that have gone across in any such way as would justify him in making such a statement-


Fletcher Bath Wade: I have examined them in such a way as to justify me in making that statement.


Robert Laird Borden: Seventy-five per cent ?


Fletcher Bath Wade: Yes, more than seventy-five per cent. X say the whole has gone over in good condition, with the exception of one cargo. I know where to get the information and I hate taken the trouble to get it. There are officers of the government who are Mr. WADE.
watching these shipments, and there are shippers who are interested in the results and who are constantly getting the returns from the other s;de. Surely these men know whether their fruit has reached the market in good condition or not. If any cargo did not turn out well would it not be known inside of a day ? Would there not be a cable message here telling the parties interested of the result ?


Robert Laird Borden: If that is the kind of investigation the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade) talks about


Fletcher Bath Wade: I suppose the hon. gentleman wants me to pick over every ajjple


Robert Laird Borden: I do not want the hon. gentleman to do anything of the kind, or anything at all except to confine himself in speaking to matters about which he knows something.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Will the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) say that there was one cargo taken over in bad condition except the one to which I referred ? Will he make any statement in contradiction of what I have said ?


Robert Laird Borden: I can name half a dozen shippers in one little district in the county of King's about the condition of whose shipments the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade) has made no investigation and does not know the first thing. I have some personal knowledge myself as to some of these shipments and I venture to say the hon. gentleman does not know any thing at all about the condition in which these apples arrived in England. And whe.n he ventures to stand in his place in parliament and state that he knows the condition of every cargo of apples that crossed the Atlantic from the province of Nova, Scotia, he makes demands on my belief that I am really not able to satisfy. Now. I would like to ask what standard of cold storage the Department of Trade and Commerce has provided for. It is provided that the cold storage is to be to the satisfaction of the minister. That being so, I suppose the minister has his scheme provided and knows what lie intends to demand, or, at all events that he proposes to take up that matter in the very near future. My right hon. friend the Minister 'of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) says he relies very much upon the words 1 To the satisfaction of the minister.' That is what I gather. Without such words, of course, the provision would be simply illusory. The contract does not state definitely what cold storage is required, but simply gives a principle upon which a contract should be framed. The words of the contract are very good as a principle upon which to frame a contract, but they are almost useless, in fact meaningless, except for the words that he speaks of which have some value though, not, perhaps, as a matter of law, the value which the right hon.

gentleman thinks should be given to them. But if we are going to depend upon these altogether, we surely should have some statement as to what the minister proposes.


Richard John Cartwright: On that point I intended to confer with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) who has had that matter under his special charge and has been making very careful inquiries.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know to what extent the Minister of Agriculture will be of assistance to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Some of the opinions expressed in the House as to his efforts in regard to cold storage in the past would not seem to recommend him as an authority. Possiblv the Minister of Trade and Commerce has weighed these matters and he may have


Richard John Cartwright: I think the Minister of Agriculture and his officers have a good deal of information and probably correct information.


Robert Laird Borden: Possibly. Even giving to these words the fullest possible meaning, the contract does not seem to have been very carefully drawn. ' To the satisfaction of the minister'-in what respect?


Richard John Cartwright: That the cold storage shall 'be adequate.


Robert Laird Borden: It does not say in all respects. I should suppose that a carefully drawn contract would have provided that the cold storage accommodation should be satisfactory to the minister in regard to the extent of it. Is the entire steamer to be fitted up -with cold storage pr is it only to be such portion as the minister requires?


Richard John Cartwright: The usual proportion.


Robert Laird Borden: It does not say so. The provision is remarkably bald.


Richard John Cartwright: My bon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) is a good lawy'er. I think he will admit, that, in drawing such a contract there is danger of falling into pitfalls if you attempt to draw the contract too closely. A discretionary power properly used especially where it is to the interest of the steamship company to provide good accommodation, will secure better results than by attempting to confine them too closely under the contract.


Robert Laird Borden: There is some force in what the right hon. gentleman says. Still. I think that more than three lines of the contract might have been devoted to the subject if the department desires to be safe. It says :
It is understood and agreed that each steamer, while running under this contract, shall be fitted with adequate cold storage accommodation to the satisfaction of the minister.


Richard John Cartwright: I had it in mind that, in having the cold storage accommodation made to my satisfaction. I would consult the Minister of Agriculture who. as the hon. gentleman knows, has been fitting up a great many vessels with cold storage.


Robert Laird Borden: But, apparently, if my hon. friend from Wentworth (Mr. E. D. Smith) is to be regarded as possessing any information on the subject, with no very great results.


Richard John Cartwright: I have not had any complaint of the adequacy of the cold storage so far.


Robert Laird Borden: But it would seem that the right hon. gentleman (Sir Richard Cartwright) is going to an authority who has not produced the best results in the past.


Richard John Cartwright: Of course the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. L. Borden) will have his own opinion. I cannot induce him, perhaps, to regard my hon. friend (Mr. Fisher) as right except on militia matters.


Robert Laird Borden: I will be content to believe that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) knows as much about this as he does about militia matters, if that will be any satisfaction to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce might appeal to his colleague (Mr. Fisher) on these matters -with just as much confidence and probability of securing good results as was found when that hon. gentleman was called in to administer the affairs- of the Department of Militia. But the question is whether the country will be satisfied with these results, however much the Minister of Trade and Commerce may be satisfied with them. For instance, this cheese, which went over so late as the 26th of June, has gone over in a bad and heated condition.


Richard John Cartwright: I don't think it went over in an Allan boat. .


Robert Laird Borden: I am talking about the results obtained by the Minister of Agriculture, results which have been detailed in an organ of the government, which I am sure the right hon. gentleman will not question, the Toronto ' Globe,' which is more to him than the Bible, and he more to it than a prophet.


Richard John Cartwright: I do not so regard it, nor any other paper that ever was published.


Robert Laird Borden: The extremely intimate relation between the hon. gentleman and that organ would justify me in appealing; to it, and that journal has shown that

this cheese went over in a bad and heated condition. Yet the Minister of Trade and Commerce will go to the Minister of Agriculture in order that a line of steamships may be fitted up in precisely the same way. That does not seem to promise very good results. However, it is possible that even the Minister of Trade and Commerce may repent and seek some better source of information, and possibly he may be induced to obtain a modification of this contract so that definite and precise provisions may be included, perhaps by a supplementary agreement, and that there may be something substantial upon which we may call the contractors to account in case the results are not satisfactory.


Richard John Cartwright: I may say to my hon. friend that I had some conversation with some of his legal confreres in the Department of Justice oh that point, and they rather intimated that it was inexpedient to go into minute details in the matter, for the reasons I have given, and which I think we must admit, always supposing I can secure an opinion from my colleagues, will have some force.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I submit that the contract affords no protection whatever. The clause which the minister has pointed out as being a protecting clause is of no practical utility at all. We have facilities on every boat that has cold storage, the plant is there, the refrigerating plant is there the insulating chambers are there, the facilities are there, but they are not put into operation, and that is where the weakness of this contract comes in. The contract simply provides that the boats shall be fitted with adequate cold storage accommodation. Even if they are fitted with cold storage accommodation, we have no surety that we shall have any particular temperature. That is the point; the government should have control of the temperature. No matter how good the facilities are, how good the chamber is, or how good the refrigerating plant may be, if they do not provide you with a proper temperature they are of no earthly use, the goods may arrive in any sort of condition. That is the crux of the whole question. I say the government should have provided in this contract to retain control over the temperature, with power to insist that the temperature shall be so and so for the different products. Then it would be of some use. That clause simply provides that they shall put cold storage chambers on the boat, but we have no surety that they will be effective.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What system of cold storage is to be placed on these boats ?


Richard John Cartwright: The same system that my bon. friend the Minister of Agriculture introduced into the various vessels to which he has given contracts.


Robert Laird Borden: 


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What system might that be ?


Richard John Cartwright: I am not quite sure of the name ; it is an English . system, I believe.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The minister has admitted that the facilities to be provided are similar to those that have been provided in the boats we already have in operation, and we know from experience that these are far from being effective. Many of these boats carry goods in an excellent condition, but many other boats do not. The trouble is that the government has no power to say what the temperature shall be, whether it shall be 10, 20 or 50 degrees. As a matter of fact, some of them do not maintain a temperature that will carry the stuff over in proper condition, yet the minister says the same facilities are provided in this new contract. Therefore, I think the minister has been derelict in his duty in making this contract, because he should have provided that the government shall have control of the temperature.
Mr. SI'ROTILE. Does the minister understand that a part of this subsidy is to cover the expense of providing cold storage on these vessels, that is to say, that that was one of the considerations ?


Richard John Cartwright: That was provided before, as I understand.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I find in the Auditor General's Report, page D-117, that we paid last year $9,432 for fitting up the steamer ' Tunisian ' with cold storage, and we paid for the 1 Bavarian ' $8,900. Now, it seems we are paying double for this.


Richard John Cartwright: No ; that was before the contract was made. This particular clause the hon. gentleman refers to has no reference to the two new steamships to be built.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood these were (he steamships that had to do the work. '


Richard John Cartwright: The expenditure the hon. gentleman refers to was incurred and paid prior to the contract we now have under discussion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But we are using the same steamships.


Richard John Cartwright: If they have got it already, they will not require any more.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are giving them a consideration for fitting up and providing what we paid them for last year, and they are practically agreeing to do what they have already agreed to do and been paid for.


Richard John Cartwright: But we are not giving them any more.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But we are paying, without any consideration of this subsidy condition, for cold storage, a portion of which has been paid for already. Then there are two new boats provided for in this contract, two new 17-knot boats. The provision had more especial reference to these two boats, the * Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian.'


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Our information was that all of these boats had to provide cold storage for perishable products.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In answer to my bon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) the minister stated that these steamers were all running from Montreal ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is it not optional with the contractors whether they should run from Montreal or not ?


Richard John Cartwright: Oh, they would go to Montreal.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The contract distinctly says that it is at their option; the voyage may termiiiate at Quebec.


Richard John Cartwright: As a matter of fact there is not the slightest doubt that the steamers will go to Montreal. The Allans invariably start from there even although they are not able to get a full cargo there.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The contract provides that they may run from Montreal at the option of the contractors 7


Richard John Cartwright: I think that is the phrase, but as a matter of fact the hon. gentleman knows as well as I do that the Allans always run from Montreal.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But it is at the option of the contractors, whether they shall run from Montreal or not.	,
Then it is provided in clause 2 :
It being understood and agreed that if from any cause it should be proven impossible for the steamers running the service to secure cargoes from St. John in the winter season, the minister in his discretion may relieve them from going to that port.


Richard John Cartwright: That has occasionally occurred, I do not think it will occur frequently.


Mr CLARKE.: It is not yet quite clear to me why this increased subsidy has been given to the two steamers already in the service, the 4 BH.vo.ri3.ii * 3.nd the Tunisian.


Richard John Cartwright: I explained that when this proposition was originally made a very considerable larger sum was asked for the li-knot steamers. That I declined to give, but I agreed to give for the ' Bavarian ' and the ' Tunisian ' a little more, an amount not at all equal to the reduction I made from the sum demanded for the others.


Edward Frederick Clarke: As I understand, the subsidy to these two is increased by 33i per cent ?


Richard John Cartwright: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
John Waterhouse Daniel: I understood the minister to sa'v this morning that in the winter these steamers would run to St. John and Halifax.


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Not that it was optional with the department to allow them to finish the voyage at Halifax.


Richard John Cartwright: Under special circumstances they may be relived if it is not possible to obtain cargo at St. John.


John Waterhouse Daniel: As a matter of fact that was tried last winter. The Allans stated they could not get sufficient cargo at St. .Tolin and so went to Halifax for cargo. We have all heard the statement of the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) that these steamers could not get sufficient cargo at Halifax, and I am quite prepared to maintain that if the steamers cannot get a sufficient cargo at St. John they certainly will not get it at Halifax. The freight which is given to these steamers in the winter time comes very largely, as we all know, by the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway have their own line of steamers to which 'i presume they will give the first choice of cargo. But so far as relieving the steamers from going to the port ot St. John is concerned. I do not see how they are going to get cargo at Halifax if they cannot get it at St. John. Halifax is served by the Intercolonial Railway, and St. John is also served by the Intercolonial Railway and if that traffic is to be carried to Halifax by the Intercolonial Railway it certainly could be much more readily and more cheaply carried to St. John than to Halifax, because the haul would be so much shoiter. No doubt there would be some local cargo from the province of Nova Scotia, hut there would be this at St. John too. A great deal of the province of Nova Scotia which borders on the Bay of Fundy is served better and more cheaply by St. John than by Halifax, and I do not see why the steamers should be relieved from going to St. John. Of course we all know that pressure is sometimes brought to bear in these matters apart from business considerations. I did not know until I heard the hon. member (Mr. Wade) make the statement to-day that the Allan steamers were not able to get any cargo at all at Halifax.



Fletcher Bath Wade: No, I did not make the statement that they could not get any cargo at all, I said they could not get sufficient cargo.


John Waterhouse Daniel: For my part, I do not altogether approve of the change.


Richard John Cartwright: Unless there is cause shown they certainly will not be allowed to skip St. John.


Richard Blain: What increase in the subsidy was necessitated by the providing of cold storage accommodation ?


Richard John Cartwright: With respect to these new boats, no special allowance was made.


Richard Blain: No special allowance ? Then I have the right to assume they would have been fitted up w'itli cold storage even had the government not entered into a contract with them ?


Richard John Cartwright: The Minister of Agriculture has been fitting up most of the vessels from Montreal with cold storage appliances. In this particular case I do not propose that he should pav any more.
BLAIN. I have to call attention to what the Minister of Agriculture said on that point. At 7612 of last year's ' Hansard ' after discussing the question of cold storage and the amount of money the government were spending the hon. minister concluded his remarks by saying :	[DOT]
make that statement because it is not to come up to any standard ; therefore, I do not think it is right to give any subsidy on that account.


Richard John Cartwright: The subsidy is paid for increased speed.


Richard Blain: The increased speed is not i cry great and therefore the amount should not be very large.


Richard John Cartwright: Every increase of a knot over a certain rate means an enormous increase of expense.
J^1'- .pf/^OULE. Are we to understand tnat all this additional subsidy is on account of the new boats that are to be supplied ?


Richard John Cartwright: A large part of it, practically all. They are paid double what any other craft are paid.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We will only have one of these boats from August to the end of the season.


Richard John Cartwright: 
Richard John Cartwright: I am not sure what they would have done with these particular vessels.


Richard John Cartwright: The extra running will cost quite as much as the subsidy.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Richard John Cartwright: I do not think there is any provision of that kind.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any undertaking that when these vessels deliver the mails at Halifax or St. John they shall not proceed to Portland ?
Mr-BLAIN. My right hon. friend will not say that because they were to fit them up with this so-called cold storage they had been given an increased subsidy.


Richard John Cartwright: No, I would not say that.


Richard Blain: Then the committee must assume that if these are up to date vessel owners, as I supppose they are, they would have fitted them without increased subsidy. As the hon. member for Weutworth (Mr. E. D. .Smith) has pointed out, this cold storage system is entirely out of date. I might Mr. DANIEL.


Richard John Cartwright: They are not permitted to go to Portland.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What provision in the contract prevents them ?


Richard John Cartwright: There is a clause in the contract to prevent them.


Robert Laird Borden: Clause 14 of the contract reads :
The steamers employed in carrying out the provisions of this contract, shall not on any voyages either outwards or inwards, call at any foreign port not specified in this contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is that all the prohibition there is ?


Richard John Cartwright: That would be quite sufficient to prevent them going to Portland. As a matter of fact it would be practically impossible for them to do so and carry out the terms of the contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: As a matter of fact the Allan liners now go to Portland as their final port of destination.


Richard John Cartwright: That is not the case. I believe the Allans do run ships to Portland, but not these ships.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What provision is made by the government to provide these vessels with cargo at St. John ?


Richard John Cartwright: The government do not undertake to supply them with cargoes ; they must do that for themselves.


Edward Frederick Clarke: They are not bound to go to St. John if they cannot get sufficient cargo there ?


Richard John Cartwright: They may be excused. Of course they will desire to obtain cargo at St. John if they possibly can.


Robert Laird Borden: They might desire much more to obtain it somewhere else.


Richard John Cartwright: Then they could only obtain it in Halifax.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes ; the contract provides that they must go either to Halifax or St. John, and the government can only excuse them from going to one place or the other.


John Waterhouse Daniel: As I understand the contract these steamers must call at Halifax in winter under any circumstance, and at the discretion of the minister they may be required to go to St. John.


Richard John Cartwright: I would put it the other way ; they must go to St. John and Halifax, but they may be excused under certain conditions from going to St. John.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Under what circumstances would the minister excuse the steamers from calling at St. John ?


Richard John Cartwright: I would excuse them only when it became perfectly evident that they could not obtain cargo at St. John. The Canadian Pacific Railway have a line of their own at St. John to which most probably they will give the preference. It has happened, perhaps owing to snowdrifts or other causes, that there has been absolutely no cargo at St. John in one or two cases ; I hope that will not often happen, but it would be only in an extreme case that this clause of the contract would be invoked.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The minister told us that it would be practically impossible for these vessels to carry out their contract and go to Portland. I do not think that statement can be sustained. It is more than likely that the ' Bavarian ' or the ' Tunisian ' would alternate with one of the turbine boats, which would give each of these vessels two weeks to cross the Atlantic, and as they are bound to make the voyage from Moville to St. John or Halifax in seven and a half days they would have no difficulty in proceeding from one of these Canadian ports to Portland.


Richard John Cartwright: They would have to stay a certain time at St. John or Halifax, and I do not think they could carry out their contract if they called at Portland. Even if the hon. gentleman were correct in his contention. I hold that the contract prevents them from going to Portland at all.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then the minister is satisfied that the contract binds them not to go to Portland.


Richard John Cartwright: I do not think there is the slightest intention on their part to go to Portland and I certainly would call them to task if they did.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There has been nothing done to prevent Canadian shippers being discriminated against by these contractors in the matter of rates.


Richard John Cartwright: We have not had any complaints of discrimination in the case of the Allan Line.


Edward Frederick Clarke: When the hon. gentleman's estimates were under consideration last year, we made some statements as to discrimination in rates, and, if my memory serves me, the hon. gentleman sent some of his officers to Boston and other points in the eastern states to ascertain if it was a fact that discrimination was used against Canadian shippers and in favour of foreign shippers. Has the hon. gentleman the report of his officers who made that inquiry, and if so, what did they find ?


Richard John Cartwright: I know that the inquiry was made.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think the railway officials in Boston in fact admitted that there was discrimination.


Richard John Cartwright: I think the hon. gentleman is in error on that point.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There was another reason why it seemed probable. When we were discussing the question of cold storage with the Minister of Agriculture and desired to know the rates that would be charged to those who might avail themselves of the cold storage, he gave us rates on certain lines, and be said the space was to be held

for Canadians for a certain length of time, but that if the whole cargo was not obtained within that time, the vessel was to receive freight from wherever it could get it. Then the question was asked whether freight was to be taken from Americans or others who were not paying any share of the cost of fitting up these steamers with cold storage, at the same rates as Canadians ? The hon. gentleman's answer was : What can we do ? The vessel requires a cargo, and if it cannot get a full cargo from Canadians, it should be allowed to get the balance from other quarters, and to carry it at the same rate as it charges Canadians.


Richard John Cartwright: I am afraid it is almost impossible to avoid that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Did the hon. gentleman make any inquiry as to whether or not it was a fact that discrimination existed against Canadian shippers on freight going either by Atlantic ports or by the Pacific?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes, we caused some inquiry to be made, and we found that in general there was no discrimination. I am not prepared to say that there might not have been some in two or there isolated cases.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The statement I made in the House last year was based on informal tion which was obtained from shippers and published from time to time in the newspapers. In one of the Toronto papers, I think the ' News,' there appeared a special despatch of the 23rd of February last, from its correspondent in Montreal, in which it was stated :


Mr.  W. R.@: Maelunes, freight traffic manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway, was asked yesterday whether it were true that the Canadian Pacific Railway were giving shippers in United States manufacturing centres a better rate to Vancouver than was given to shippers in Montreal and Toronto. He replied that the rate on such American shipments would be a slight advance on the rate from the same American port to Seattle, the exact advance depending on the classification. It might in some instances be lower than the rate from Montreal to Vancouver. Anyhow, the situation was just the same now as It always had been. If any discrimination existed, they had existed before the American roads raised their tariffs, and were followed by the Canadian Pacific Railway. The Increase in rates by the Americans had been uniform, and applied to all routes between Chicago and points east of Chicago), and the Pacific coast.
The contention has been made that discrimination also exists with regard to east bound freight-that better rates are given to shippers from Chicago by the railroads and the steamships than are given from points in Ontario.


Richard John Cartwright: Not on the steamships. The railroads in their desire Mr. SPROULE.
to compete, may give better rates, but I do not think the steamships do.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: With reference to the cold storage machinery, are tenders asked for ?


Richard John Cartwright: In the case of the old steamers, the machinery was provided under the direction of the Department of Agriculture. In the case of the new steamers the matter has been left in the hands of the Messrs. Allan.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Did the Department of Agriculture ask for tenders ?


Richard John Cartwright: Tthat 1 could not say.


Richard Blain: Before one o'clock I asked the hon. minister in regard to the prospect of more Canadian mail matter being carried through Canadian ports. I understood him to say that there was no prospect of an improvement in that direction. Since the recess he has qualified that to a certain extent, and I would now ask him what is the prospect of an increased proportion of our mail service going by Canadian routes instead of such a large proportion going by United States routes ?


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: The department despatches mails to England by the quickest route. There are not vessels leaving Canada every day, and if the despatching of letters via American ports will result in their reaching their destination sooner than if detained for Canadian vessels, they will be sent through the American ports. I suppose the same rule is adopted by foreign post offices in'despatching mails to Canada. The greater the improvement in our own service, .the more mail matter will be sent by our own route. I understand that the Allans are building a turbine steamer which will have a speed of 17 knots per hour. That will be a considerable advance in speed over any of our present steamers and will cause a good deal of the mails, destined for eastern Canada at least, to come by our route instead of via New York. As to the mails for points west of Montreal, it would be rather difficult by any improvement in our own steamship service to get them into Ontario more quickly by Canada than by New York. There will always be a good deal of mail matter go by New York simply because you do not have steamers leaving on the Canadian route every day.


Richard Blain: What will be the difference in time in the case of a letter leaving Montreal by the Canadian route and one leaving New York ?


William Mulock: It would depend upon what steamships were sailing.


Richard Blain: Assuming the average mail service from New York and Canada.


William Mulock: Take the Allan Line, which sails from Montreal on Friday.	The malls are put on
board at Rimouski, which is 130 miles east of Quebec and 250 east of Montreal. That steamer which takes those mails Saturday morning will reach perhaps Movilie in about a week from that day or on Sunday morning, and the mails will not be in London before Monday morning. If they were sent by New York and happened to catch the ' Campania ' or ' Lueania,' of the Cunard Line, they might reach London Saturday morning. Sometimes those two steamers reach Queenstown on Friday night. If they do, it is sometimes the practice of the English post office, which controls the handling of the mails, to have special trains waiting at Queenstown. The mails are put on shore there and sent from Ireland across by the fast packet, and they will reach London on Saturday morning. That, however, is a comparatively rare occurrence. The mails usually remain on board and only reach London on Saturday afternoon at the earliest. If on the other hand those letters were sent from New York by the steamers ' Umbria ' and ' Etruria,' they would not reach London any quicker than by the Canadian route.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that speaking generally there is an advantage of about forty-eight hours in favour of New York ?


William Mulock: It is not possible to speak about averages when you have vessels of entirely different speed and there are other disturbing circumstances. On the whole the mails that leave Canada by the Allan Line and those that go via New York reach London pretty much the same time. There are chances of the mails from New York reaching London on Saturday, but they are not always realized, and we prefer to give the public the benefit of those chances.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that it is only by chance that the mails leaving New York reach London quicker than by a Canadian port ? If that be true, it is difficult to understand why such a large portion is sent by New York.


William Mulock: It takes longer for a letter to go from Toronto to Rimouski than from Toronto to New York. You can post a letter in Toronto on Friday and it may catch the outgoing steamers on Saturday morning at New York, but if you wanted that letter to catch the steamer at Rimouski, it would have to be posted at Toronto much earlier.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The policy is to send the mails by the route which will bring them quickest to their destination 1


William Mulock: Of course.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any increase in the proportion sent during the past year by the Canadian route as compared with previous years ?


William Mulock: I have not got the figures but can get them.


Richard John Cartwright: I have a memo, here of the amount of mail matter that was sent by our own steamers this
past year :
libs.
Letters and post cards	 9,986
Newspapers	 74,336
Parcel mails	 62,649


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the hon. gentleman a memorandum showing the weight of letters, cards and newspapers that went by New-York, the total weight despatched during the year ?


Richard John Cartwright: 147,171 pounds.


Robert Laird Borden: What will be the total amount of subsidy payable under this contract to these two vessels ?


Richard John Cartwright: 
Robert Laird Borden: So it is within $170,000 of what the government propose to pay for a fast Atlantic service five or six years ago.


Richard John Cartwright: To Petersen, what Petersen offered to do it for.


Robert Laird Borden: It is amusing to hear the hon. gentleman talking about the failure of Petersen ; it would be more correct to regard it as the failure of the government. We were then told that the $750.000 annual subsidy which had been proposed by the late Conservative administration, was absolutely absurd and unnecessary, that the proposal could not be carried out, and that this government could accomplish it at once at a saving to the country each year, for twenty years, of $250,000, or $5,000,000 altogether. That was the contract paraded to us in the House and all over the country ; and now we are engaged in the project of giving a subsidy of $330,000.


Richard John Cartwright: Quite a difference.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, and quite a difference in speed and accommodation.


William Mulock: And in the cost.


Robert Laird Borden: The cost is. about two-thirds, $330,000 as against $500,000.


William Mulock: I think the estimated cost of the old project was $750,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Of which $250,000 was furnished by the government of Great

Britain. The original proposal was $750,000 of an annual subsidy for 20 years by this government, which was to be supplemented by one-half that amount for the same period of time as an annual grant by the imperial government, making altogether $1,125,000 per annum of a subsidy. Well, this government said that was too much, they would not entertain that proposal, they would not go on with it, although the contract was with the very company was then ready, subject to a short delay to enable them to make their arrangements, to carry out that proposal. The proposal was deemed an extravagant one, $500,000 a year was considered ample, and we were treated to the bottle-necked vessels proposal, which was announced as an accomplished fact by the Prime Minister in Toronto after he had received a conveniently timed telegram from the Minister of Finance. Now some six years after, after the fast Atlantic service has been dropped by the government-because that was the effect of the statement of the Postmaster General last year-we are coming back to a proposal for a subsidy of $330,000 a year for a service of 17 knots for two steamers in the summer, and something less in the winter, and a service of 14 knots for the other steamers. I do not know whether my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce feels inclined to congratulate himself upon this magnificent result of eight years effort by a businesslike government. I am inclined to think that if he were disposed to congratulate himself upon this result, he would not find very much' company among the people of Canada. I think it is a very pitiable result of all the efforts of this government for eight years, that we are now paying two-thirds of the amount which they said was amply sufficient for a fast service, and they are paying it for what would be regarded in New York as no better than a third-class service so far as speed is concerned. There may be some consideration present to our minds which should make us realize the importance of what one might call a fast freight service as well as a fast passenger service. But it has been the policy of the government as I understand, until within the last two years at least, to establish a fast Atlantic service, regarding it of so much importance that the Prime Minister himself was selected to hearld the consummation of that project to the city of Toronto and the country. Now, either they have changed their minds or they have made a bad mess of it. I can appeal with confidence to the Minister of Trade and Commerce to join with me in that regret, because I know his own mind with regard to it. It is a pity I think that the government was so hasty when, on coming into power, they rejected what had been carefully thought out by their predecessors. If they had had a little more modesty. a little better comprehension of their Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
own ability to deal with matters of this kind, they probably would not have taken the course which they did. If they had not taken that course, but had adopted a contract which might have been carried out, the country would have been enjoying a fast Atlantic service during the past five or six years, instead of being, as it is to-day, obliged to pay two-thirds of the amount which the former government proposed, and getting after all a third-class service. Have the government an idea of the average length of the passage twenty years ago, as compared with that which has prevailed, say during the past two or three years V A writer in the public press of Halifax who professed to be familiar with this subject and who gave illustrations, citing the names of vessels, told us two or three years ago that the average rate of passage from Halifax to the mother country was practically the same to-day as it was 35 years ago, in 1867. I do not know whether his statement is correct. I think I brought the same statement to the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce last year.


Richard John Cartwright: I can give the hon. gentleman a memo, of the time occupied in 1895 and 1897 from Moville to Halifax. It was ten days and ten hours on the average in 1895 and ten days and twenty-two hours in 1897.


Mr.   R..L. BORDEN@: And during the last year for instance.


Richard John Cartwright: In 189293 it was ten days and four hours.


Robert Laird Borden: A slight improvement on the other record. I think it was not more than that thirty years ago.


Richard John Cartwright: I may remark to my hon. friend that from Moville to Halifax, from November to January the memo. I have here shows an average of eight days and six hours, that is in present seasons. That was on a vovage in 1903.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In the fall of 1903 ?


Richard John Cartwright: In the fall of 1903, yes. Then from Halifax to Moville it was much the same, 8 days and 6 hours. There has been an improvement in the present year.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I think that as far back as 1866 or 1867 the Cunard Line of steamers running from Halifax made the voyage in 8 days, occasionally 9, while 10 days would be an exceptionally long voyage.


Richard John Cartwright: That may
be.


Robert Laird Borden: I was very much surprised at the comparison when it was made. It dated as far back as 1866. and I think possibly a little beyond that, and showed practically that the length of passage at present is the same as it was thirty-five or forty years ago.


Richard John Cartwright: I dare say I should not be surprised in the case of the Cunard liners.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Am I to understand that the minister had an investigation made by the officers of his department with respect to discrimination in freight rates ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has he received a report from those officers ?


Richard John Cartwright: I had inquiries made ; I am not sure whether there is a report in form.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the officers were sent out to make an investigation, they surely must have made some report.


Richard John Cartwright: They reported generally upon the subject, but I do not think I have a formal report in detail.	'


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any information which you could give about that report ?


Richard John Cartwright: The information as to discrimination was what I gave the hon. gentleman ; that in a general way, so far as the steamships were concerned, they did not discriminate against Canadian shippers at all.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Am I to understand that the minister, having sent officers to make inquiries, the only report received was a verbal report ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not think there was any formal report.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No letter or communication, nothing of which we can get a copy, available in the department to show what kind of an investigation was made, and whether it was a fact or not that American shippers, either in the New England states or Chicago, can get better rates by rail and steamship for their products than are given to the Canadians, who are subsidizing these vessels ?


Richard John Cartwright: There may have been some isolated cases in which, for various reasons, the Americans obtained a preference, but, as a rule, there was no discrimination.	-


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the hon. gentleman be* good enough to lay on the table a copy of the report, or letter, or memorandum, or communication, that was received by him ;


Richard John Cartwright: I will cause inquiry to be made about the letter.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There must be some written statement.


Richard John Cartwright: I am not sure that there was, but I shall make inquiries. An inquiry was made, that I know.
198	[DOT]


Mr. HACKETT.: Will the proposed turbine steamer of the Allan Line be able to make 17 knots an hour.


Richard John Cartwright: Perhaps she may make over 17 knots, but that is all that is stipulated for.


Edward Hackett: Is she intended for carrying the mails across the Atlantic ?


Richard John Cartwright: She will carry the mails, of course.


Edward Hackett: And freight ?	[DOT]


Richard John Cartwright: And freight.


Edward Hackett: Are the lines from New York that carry Canadian mails subsidized for doing so ?


Richard John Cartwright: No, but certain payments are made by the Post Office Department for the carrying of Canadian mails.


William Mulock: We are obliged to pay rates according to the schedule of the Universal Postal Union, which are payable by one country to another. When our mails are sent via New York, from the time they enter the United States they are incorporated with the United States mails, and we have afterwards to account to the United States, they in the first instance paying the cost of transportation across the sea. That is the way it would work out.


Mr. COCHRANE.: It seems to me a remarkable position for a business government to be in, that after subsidizing a line of steamers from Canada for a large amount the greater proportion of our mail goes via New York, and we are paying for carrying it from that port across the Atlantic. I think it is a humiliating position. Why do you not get some go on, and have a fast iine of steamers ?


An hon. MEMBER.: Now you are getting it.


Edward Cochrane: Yes ; you sit there and grin, and you go it blind and slap your hands, and say it is a business government, and swallow it holus-bolus, but you do not know a thing about what you are doing. Out in the country they would call the position of the government lying. I cannot use the term, because it would not be parliamentary, but I would like to know what word would express it.


An hon. MEMBER.: Hear, hear.


Edward Cochrane: Hear, hear. There is another silly. He is exercising all the judgment the Almighty gave him, and he is making a fool of himself. I ask the Postmaster General if he does not feel humiliated to think that as Postmaster, Sir William Mulock, he has subsidized a Canadian company to carry the mails across the



Atlantic, and yet the greater portion go by the United States ? Why Is it ? We are told we do not want a fast Atlantic service, it is comfort the people want, they do not take into consideration the speed so long as they have comfort. A business man in Great Britain or the United States is not going across the Atlantic for comfort. People are not willing to loll along at 16 or 17 knots an hour when they can go from their own country at 20 or 21 knots, and they will not take a slow passage because it is comfortable. I think that the hon. gentleman who is filling the position that he used to call the fifth wheel of a coach-and the fifth wheel is taking a great deal of oil to run it, and it does not amount to much-must be humiliated to think that he must pay the amount that he does when he used to be so very fond of preaching economy and telling how the farmers were bled white for a useless government. He says all things are changed. There has been no change for the better since he ridiculed the position. As a Canadian, I am willing to pay more money for an efficient service, which will take us out of this humiliating position described by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Postmaster General. I have no sympathy with the Minister of Trade and Commerce, because he talked so much formerly and has accomplished so little-he doesn't seem to care whether he does anything or not, so long as he gets his salary-but I sympathize with tile Postmaster General, because the ambition created in his breast by being Sir William Mulock, to bring the rfame of Canada into world-wide respect, must be sadly disappointed.


Richard Blain: Is there anything in the new contract to prevent the shipping companies discriminating against Canadian shippers ?


Richard John Cartwright: No,


Richard Blain: Last year when this matter was being discussed the following discussion took place :


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any contract made with this company which prevents them discriminating in freight rates ?


Richard John Cartwright: There is some regulation of that kind.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any provision made by which the exporters of Chicago shall not get better rates than those of Toronto, Montreal or Hamilton ?


Richard John Cartwright: There is a provision that they shall not discriminate against Canadian shippers.


Richard John Cartwright: It was another contract with reference to which these statements were made.


Richard Blain: Yes, but the principle is the same. Why is it necessary to insert such a provision in one contract and not in another ?


Richard John Cartwright: No complaint has been made with respect to any discrimination on the Allan Line.
Mr. COCHRANE


Richard Blain: I think it is rather a serious matter that such a provision should be omitted from this contract.


Richard John Cartwright: I do not think there has been any alteration made in these contracts with the Allans for a considerable space of time. There are clauses in several of the other contracts bearing upon that point.


Robert Laird Borden: Why should they be omitted from this contract ?


Richard John Cartwright: At the present moment there is very great difficulty in obtaining freight and the service is being carried on at rates which the ship-owners represent to be utterly unremunerative. There would be great difficulty in interfering too much with the filling up of these vessels with cargoes. All the information I have leads me to believe that there is no discrimination against the Canadian shipper on the part of the steamship lines, but I am not prepared to say how far that may be the case with respect to the railroads. I do not think the steamship lines do discriminate at all to the detriment of Canadians. If my hon. friend will look at the previous contracts, he will, I think, see that they are just the same as this.


Robert Laird Borden: Would not the officer of the department be able to give us an absolute assurance as to that ?


Richard John Cartwright: He informs me that there is no difference in the Allan contract.


Robert Laird Borden: If it is necessary to have such a provision in the Furness-Withy contract, would it not be equally necessary with respect to steamers which during a portion of the year sail from the same port ?


Richard John Cartwright: There had been complaints of discrimination with respect to the Furness-Withy, and one or two others, and we put in a clause to guard against it. We have had no complaints with regard to the Allans, and I do not think there has been any discrimination.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In the event of the ships proceeding to Portland to receive and discharge cargo, will, the minister cancel the contract ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not believe that any of these ships have ever gone to Portland.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But in the event of their doing so ?


Richard John Cartwright: I should regard it as being a violation of the clause contained in the contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: And the contract would be probably cancelled if the minister considered it a serious breach ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The minister seems to be latisfied that these vessels will not proceed :o Portland ?


Richard John Cartwright: I am. I lo not think there is the slightest risk of heir doing so.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It does not make the lightest difference whether the discrimina-ion is by the railway companies or the teamship companies so long as Canadian *xporters are placed at a disadvantage. The leople who contribute to pay these subsidies hould not be discriminated against by Ither railways or steamships.


Richard John Cartwright: The teainship rates have been extremely low for he last year or two.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The minister will appre-iate the point that when the people of Can-da pay these subsidies they should not be laced at a disadvantage by a discrimination vhich would give the advantage to their American competitors in the English mar-:et.


Richard John Cartwright: Does my ton. friend wish to exclude American prompts from Canadian railroads and Canadian teamships ? Does he think that would be n the interests of the people of Canada ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am certainly most de-irous to see the volume of trade increase on ur Canadian railroads and on our Canadian hips, and I care not whether that trade omes from the Orient or from the United states through Canada. I think it is a rea-onable proposition to suggest to the hon. sinister that if we have to make special rrangements to establish this steamship ervice and have to increase the subvention y fifty per cent this year over what we aid last year, our people should not be dis-riminated against in rates-that they should ot be placed at a disadvantage by either aiiways or steamships.


Sir RICHARD CAIRT WRIGHT.: That
ounds very reasonable and fair, no doubt; ut the hon. gentleman has to consider this oint, that trade starting from Chicago has 'e choice of going by the Canadian Paci-e Railway, or direct to New York to ship here. In that case you cannot get more or the freight than the rate offered by the few York steamships.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The contract made last ear with Furness-Withy & Co., contained clause that the contractors shall, at least hree weeks prior to the first sailing under his contract, furnish to the minister a ehedule of the freight rates proposed on oth east and westbound trips, which ehedule shall be approved by the minister nd, after being approved by him, shall ot be changed without his consent. It Iso provides that the minister may at any.1 1984
time, if he deems it advisable, fix the maximum rates to be charged to passengers and on any article or class of goods, and the contractor shall carry, on all steamers under this contract, passengers and freights at rates which shall not be in excess of such maximum rates fixed by the minister ; and in no ease shall any discrimination be made as regards rates or otherwise, directly or indirectly, against Canadian merchants or shippers, who shall always have precedence for their goods over all other merchants and shippers. It seems a pity that a similar clause is not inserted in this contract and that the ships are not prohibited from going to Portland.


Richard John Cartwright: can tell the hon. gentleman is that they shall not go to Portland.	.


Edward Hackett: In regard to the shipment of goods from Canada to Great Britain, it is of the greatest importance, especially to the peoj)le of Prince Edward Island, that their cheese and butter and farm produce generally shall be shipped across the ocean and landed in London or Liverpool in good condition. Now, I find in the Toronto ' Globe ' an item which is very important :
According to a report received by the extension of markets division of the Department of Agriculture, a shipment of Canadian cheese was recently landed at London, Eng., in a heated condition, due to being carried across the ocean from Montreal in a poorly ventilated part of the ship.
I would like to ask the hon. minister what ship that cheese was carried in ?


Richard John Cartwright: I do not know anything about it. No complaint has been made to my department about any such cargo. I do not think that occurred in connection with the Allan Line. There are other steamers carrying cheese, as probably the hon. gentleman knows.


Edward Hackett: I think it is very deplorable. The government have been boasting of what they have been doing in supplying cold storage in steamships ; yet there is not a member of this government able to tell us on what steamship or by what line of steamships this shipment of cheese was landed in London in that condition.
Steam service between Halifax, St. John's, Newfoundland, and Liverpool, from July 1, 1904, to June 30, 1905, $20,000.


Richard John Cartwright: This is the usual vote for this service. It is carried on by the Furness-Withy Company. The steamships employed are the ' Ulunda,'
' Damara,' ' Peruvian ' and ' Rhenania.' The trips are made every seventeen days.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do they carry mails ?


Richard John Cartwright: If the
Post Office Department chooses to send them, but the mails sent in such a case are very few.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Have these boats cold storage chambers ?


Richard John Cartwright: They have not, but they are ventilated.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What system of ventilation ?


Richard John Cartwright: Each vessel has steam-driven fans, I am told.


John Waterhouse Daniel: These steamers are rather small, are they not ?


Richard John Cartwright: One is 1,000 tons, another 1,145. another 2,022 and the fourth 1,156, net register.


John Waterhouse Daniel: They make about twenty trips in the year ?


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


John Waterhouse Daniel: So that the subsidy is about $1,000 a voyage ?


Richard John Cartwright: Roughly.


Haughton Lennox: When was this service established ?


Richard John Cartwright: Eight or nine years ago. There was no service prior to that time, I think. This, I believe, was established before we came into office.


Mr. J. D. REID.: If this line is not used for carrying the mails, and if it has no cold storage facilities, I cannot see the advantage of subsidizing it at all. Probably the minister can explain what advantage we are getting from these boats.


Richard John Cartwright: I know of none except the promotion of trade between the province of Nova Scotia via Halifax and Newfoundland.


John Dowsley Reid: Has it increased the trade ?


Richard John Cartwright: There is a fair amount done but not a very large amount.


John Dowsley Reid: Is the increase sufficient to warrant the continuance of the subsidy V


Richard John Cartwright: That is for the House to decide.


John Dowsley Reid: If the House is to decide according to the statement of the minister, it will come to the conclusion that it is not necessary.


Richard John Cartwright: If the hon. gent.ieniun is of that opinion and it is shared by the hon. member for Halifax, I dare say the government will take it into consideration.


John Dowsley Reid: We are supposed to act on information we get from the minister.


Richard John Cartwright: The subsidy has been applied for by the Board of Trade of Halifax several times. That body Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.
has pressed upon us the desirability o1 continuing the service. There is a certaii amount of trade done but not very much.


Haughton Lennox: I do not see any reasoi for raising any objection, but would be glat to have the opinion of the minister.


Richard John Cartwright: New foundland is a place which consumes a ver} fair proportion of our goods considering iti population. The trade of Newfoundland i: a very desirable trade. The population ii not large but they do consume a very con siderable amount of our produce. I thini the total trade averages something like $2, 000.000 a year, and a very considerable par of it is done through the medium of thil line.


Robert Laird Borden: I think this is th< line by which a great deal of the apples art shipped from Nova Scotia to Great Britain Although the trade is not rapidly increasing it is perhaps a little larger than the minis ter suggests it is. I think there is a gradua growth.


Richard John Cartwright: Thi trade last year in our produce amounted t< $2,3SO,000 out of a total of two and a hal: million dollars.


Robert Laird Borden: The port of Halifa? and the other maritime ports have not spe cially good service with the mother conn try during the summer months. During tin winter months, when the Allan boats run they have a somewhat better service. Bu during the summer, the service is not ver; high class via St. John, Newfoundland ant Halifax.


Mr. FIELDING.: Just now it is not de sirable that we should withdraw any subsi dies we have granted to promote trade witl Newfoundland. In our trade relations witl that colony, it is much better that we sbouh err on the side of liberality than in th other direction.


Haughton Lennox: That is the view I take and I only asked whether there was ai increase of trade.


Richard John Cartwright: Tber has been some but not a large increase.


Haughton Lennox: We desire to promote th-most cordial relations with the colony o Newfoundland in the hope that some da; these will lead to a closer connection.


John Waterhouse Daniel: In making the statemen that the trade amounted to two and a hal million dollars, what does the ministe: mean ?


Richard John Cartwright: I meai that our export trade to Newfoundlam amounted to two and a half million dol lars.


John Waterhouse Daniel: That is just the trade be tween Canada and Newfoundland.
213	JULY 7, 1904	6214


Richard John Cartwright: Yes.


John Waterhouse Daniel: That does not take into onsideration the trade by the same vessels o Liverpool ?


Richard John Cartwright: No. I hink that what they take from Newfound-and consists chiefly of lumber.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I am heartily in accord pith the remarks that fell from the Minis-er of Finance. I believe that the trade pith Newfoundland is one which -fce should incourage by every means and that we hould make sure, not only of the present tusiness, but if possible of a great deal of ncreased future business.


Richard John Cartwright: The to-al volume of trade amounted to about $3,00,000.


William Stevens Fielding: This trade is regarded is so desirable from a Nova Scotia point if view that it was established by a local


Richard John Cartwright: Yes, the trade at these various points, Glasgow, Dublin, and the others, show a fair increase. Trade varies from year to year according to the stuff that we have to export, but on the whole, it is increasing fairly well.


Richard Blain: What kind of goods do these vessels carry and what is their return cargo ?


Richard John Cartwright: They take a mixed cargo, partly timber, and partly grain and other agricultural products.


Richard Blain: No manufactured goods ?


Richard John Cartwright: A portion of the trade is in manufactured goods, but it is chiefly in timber and agricultural (products. I do not think they 'have much as a rule. They claim that there is a great difficulty in obtaining a return cargo and that is one of the grounds on which they ask a subsidy. The return cargo is small.
:ompany, and after a time one of the great English companies came and took it off heir hands, and consolidated it with their wn enterprise. It was originally established iy a Halifax company in 1896.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think that any ine in this House wishes to do anything that vould not tend to increase ti'ade between Annul a and Newfoundland. All I desired vas to obtain some information. I had no lesire to have the item struck out, but I lonsideired, from the way the minister spoke, that he was not giving us the infor-nation we are entitled to. As far as this subsidy is concerned or any other that would send to increase our trade, I have no hesita-sion in supporting it.
Steam service between St. John and Glas-?ow, 515,000.


Richard John Cartwright: This was lormerly a fortnightly service and is now weekly. We pay the Donaldson line $750 ler trip.


John Dowsley Reid: That is $3,000.


Richard John Cartwright: Not the ivhole year, only the winter.


Richard Blain: This item was increased ast year to $15,000. Is it the same this pear ?


Richard Blain: What is it composed of, small as it is ?


Richard John Cartwright: There used to be a considerable amount of iron, but I think that of late that has been rather going the other way. The return cargo is made up of merchandise, dry goods and so on.


Richard Blain: Do these vessels carry the mail ?


Richard John Cartwright: If the Post Office chooses to send it.


Richard Blain: Does the Post Office send any that way ?


Richard John Cartwright: Very little.


William Stevens Fielding: These are slow vessels and would hardly do for the mail.
Steam service between St. John, N.B., Dublin and Belfast, during the winter of 1904-5,
|7,500.


Richard John Cartwright: This is with the Ulster Steamship Company, Limited, known as the Head Line. There is no difference in the amounts as compared with last year. It is a fortnightly service with a subsidy of $750 a trip.


Richard John Cartwright: Yes. They used to give a fortnightly service at f750 per trip and are now giving a weekly service at the same rate.


Richard Blain: Originally it was a monthly service, then a fortnightly and now a (veekly.


Richard John Cartwright: Origin-lily a fortnightly service, I think-certainly In my time.


Haughton Lennox: Could this and the service we have just been discussing be combined to advantage?


Richard John Cartwright: I hardly think so.	,


Haughton Lennox: I thought that by having one line a better class of vessels could be had to make the round trip. Of course, I do not know whether it could be done or not.


Richard Blain: Is the trade in this direction increasing ?
Mr. DANIEL, I think the present system is better than the one suggested. It is bet-

621i
ter to have direct lines, where you can, rather than to have steamers callling at a number of ports.
A line or lines of steamers to run during the summer months between St. John, Halifax and London, and during the winter months between St. John and London direct, and Halifax and London direct, $40,000.


Richard John Cartwright: I wish to change the phraseology of that. This is divided into two, tfhe Furness-Withy do
part of the service and the Canadian Pacific Railway the other part.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much is allowed to
each ?
Sir	RICHARD	CARTWRIGHT.	The
Furness-Withy get	$25,000 and the Canadian
Pacific Railway $15,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do they supply an equal number of vessels?
Sir	RICHARD	CARTWRIGHT.	The
Furness-Withy supply a little the larger portion.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Can the minister give the details of the arrangement?
Sir	RICHARD	CARTWRIGHT.	The
Canadian Pacific Railway steamers are the ' Mount Temple,' the ' Montcalm,' Vhe ' Montrose,' and the ' Lake Michigan.' I desire 'tft strike out the words of this vote so as to leave it read, ' for a line or lines of steamers to run between St. John, Halifax and London.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Ernest D'Israeli Smith: As these boats will carry apples, I would like to ask the minister if they are mechanically ventilated, and d,f so, how ?


Richard John Cartwright: These steamers are to be suitably provided with cold storage accommodation.


John Waterhouse Daniel: How frequently do the steamers of the two lines run ?


Richard John Cartwright: The l1 urness-Withy at intervals of not more than fifteen days, and the Canadian Pacific Railway at intervals of not more t!han seventeen day<s. As a matter of fact, I believe, the Furness-Withy go every ten days. The clause of the contract with effect to the cold storage provides that the steamers shall be fitted with suitable accommodation for carrying perishable cargo, such as apples or other fruit, dairy products and other provisions without deterioration by means of a forced circulation of air by electric or steam fans which will maintain a uniform temperature.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Would the Iron, minister allow me to look at the contract ? and, if there is no objection while I consult.it, the minister might call up another item.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Item allowed to stand.
Steam communication between St. John am Digby, from July 1, 1904, to June 30th, 190E $12,500.


Richard John Cartwright: Thii is done by the * Prince Rupert ' as hereto fore-two round trips daily during June July, August, September and October.
A line or lines of steamers to run betweei St. John and Halifax, or either, and the Wes' Indies and South America, $80,700.


Richard John Cartwright: Thii is the Pickford and Black Line, a steamei of 1,780 tons iwt.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the trade over thif route increasing ?


Richard John Cartwright: It is increasing, but not very fast. It is only a legular service. This route is to Kingston, in the Island of Jamaica.


Robert Laird Borden: I think this service does not extend to South America at the present time, or beyond Demerara.


Richard John Cartwright: They go to Trinidad, and then they go on to Demerara. This service is carried on under a joint agreement with the British government. We supply $65,700 and they supply an equal amount. We have to call, under the agreement with them, at a great number of the West Indian Islands.


Robert Laird Borden: It has been a valuable service, I think.


Richard John Cartwright: Fairly so. If the British government had not been so exigent in making us call at so many places, the service would not be so long as it is.


Robert Laird Borden: Representations have been made to me from several quarters in my constituency as to the great importance of extending this service if possible to South America, both to Brazil and Uruguay.


Richard John Cartwright: There is a great deal to be said for that, but I am doubtful whether we can manage that with the imperial government.


William Stevens Fielding: The extension of this service to Brazil would make the route so long that it would be unsatisfactory. It might be desirable to open arrangements with Brazil, but I am inclined to think that an almost independent service would be necessary. The difficulty we have already with those distant ports, such as Trinidad and Demerara is that the stoppages on the way makes the voyage a long one and prevents that quickness of communication which is so desirable in the transportation of our products. I agree that it is desirable to open up trade with Brazil, but I

doubt whether we can do it as an extension of the existing line. I almost think it would need an independent service.


Robert Laird Borden: I said an extension of this steamship service. I notice some articles in a trade journal published in Halifax, and I have also had some communication from others, all leading to the same conclusion, if their arguments are correct, that a profitable trade might be done between Canada and South America. They say that a considerable trade is done at the present time, but the difficulty is that the goods have to be reshipped either from England or from the United States, and this handicaps the efforts of exporters to a great extent. They point out some results which have ensued from the establishment of steamship lines between South America and other countries. It is a pretty large proposition, no doubt, and one that should not be hastily entered upon. I merely mention it now, because these representations have been made to me, possibly they may have been made also to the government, and perhaps the government have them under consideration.


Richard John Cartwright: More particularly with respect to the Argentine Republic. With respect to Brazil, I am not quite sure. The chief exports from there would be articles that we do not use much in Canada. The Argentine Republic would be worth considerable.


Haughton Lennox: Could the minister mention about the rate of speed attained by these vessels ?


Richard John Cartwright: I think it is ten knots.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Richard John Cartwright: The matter is well worth looking into.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Referring to item 157, where there is a divided service, I see it refers to the contract for steamers calling at Halifax and St. John. Is that the case with regard to the Canadian Pacific Railway contract as well ?	[DOT]


Richard John Cartwright: I think the Canadian Pacific Railway contract is to St. John, the terminal point of the Canadian Pacific Railway is at St. John. They call on their east bound trips at Halifax, and on their west bound trips at Antwerp.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have been requested by my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he would be good enough to bring down the return that was made last year with regard to the discrimination against Canadian freight, on these subsidized steamers, in favour of the United States.


William Stevens Fielding: It is now six o'clock, and I may say that the Minister of Trade and Commerce will not resume his estimates this evening, but probably the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will do so, or probably the Minister of Railways and Canals.
At six o'clock, Committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Intercolonial Railway, Windsor branch, $30,000.
Hon. ,H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals). This is cost of maintenance. This branch is rented to the Dominion Atlantic Railway, and is a portion of the railway between Windsor and Windsor Junction. The Dominion Atlantic operate it for a rental and the government maintains it. It is part of the Dominion Atlantic system between Halifax and Yarmouth.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What rental do they pay for it ?
Mr. EMMEtRSON. One-third of the gross earnings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What was that last year?
Mr. EilMERSON. Last year we received as our proportion $42,560.81.


Samuel Barker: I understand there has always been some profit on that line for some years back.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did we spend more than $30,000 to keep it in repair ?


Mr. EMMERSON.: The maintenance of way cost $17,843.39, leaving a balance of $24,717.62.


Mr.   BLAIX@: What has been the profit for the last three or four years ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Our proportion of the gross earnings was $49,604.59, and it cost us $16,152.55.
Mi'. SPROULE. That would seem to show that when a part of the Intercolonial is taken by a private company it will pay.


Henry Robert Emmerson: This is operated by politics, if any part of it is, I suppose ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No; it is operated by a company.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We keep it up and pay all the expenditure on the track.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But some one else employs the hands.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is a very lucrative section of the Intercolonial Railway. It is at the entrance to the famous Annapolis valley, and is closely connected with Yarmouth. There are thickly settled communities in the district, and it is a very prosperous section. There are large mining and lumber interests in that section, and the earnings are large. In some of the other parts of the Intercolonial, especially in the northern section, we travel over great spaces that are very sparsely settled and where there is no local traffic.


Haughton Lennox: Is there not the further difficulty on the Intercolonial that very low rates are charged for passengers and freight as compared with other companies 5


Henry Robert Emmerson: The passenger rates are practically the same on that line as on the Intercolonial. I cannot speak of the freight rates.


Haughton Lennox: What are the average passenger rates on the Intercolonial Rail way ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Three cents for first-class, two cents for second class, and one cent for Indians and clergymen.


Haughton Lennox: That does not bring us to the point I referred to at all. It is the Mr. EMMERSON.
average rate per mile that I am anxious to find out. The other railways of Canada say that-their average rate is not two cents a mile.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The average passenger earnings on the Intercolonial Railway are about $1.70, that is including the Indians and clergymen.
Prince Edward Island Railway, working expenses, $330,000.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I would like to ask the reason for this additional amount of $30,000
for the Prince Edward Island Railway ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The wages have been very largely increased, and it is expected that the Murray Harbour branch will be opened before the end of this fiscal year, and, of course, that will require more operating expenses.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many men have you employed on the Prince Edward Island Railway ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is included in the additional operating expenses that will be necessitated by the opening of this new branch. This increase is not confined to labourers ; the wages of the sectionmen conductors and trainmen on the Prince Edward Island Railway have been made equal to those on the Intercolonial.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What wages are being paid ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The maximum pay for yard section foreman is $2.25 per day ; regular section men from $1.40 to $1.50 ; section foremen from $1.85 to $2 ; foremen of extra gangs, $2.75 ; foremen of track carpenters, $2.50 ; track carpenters and skilled mechanics, $2 ; ordinary rough carpenters from $1.50 to $1.70. For some years prior to 1904 the maximum to section foremen was $1.85, whereas it is now $2.25. In 1896 the maximum to section foremen was $3.30. In 1S96 the wages paid section men was $1.15 and it has since been increased to $1.40 and $1.50.


Edward Hackett: Why was Mr. Robert McLean, section foreman at Alberton dismissed in 1896 5


Henry Robert Emmerson: That seems ages ago. I do not suppose my hon. friend would expect me to know, but if he wishes I will get the information later.


Edward Hackett: The minister will remember that in 1896 a change of government took place.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I remember that distinctly.


Edward Hackett: And the best employees on the Prince Edward Island Railway were dismissed. Why was Peter L. Chasson, section foreman, of Tignish dismissed in 1896 ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Even the memory of the general manager is not equal to remembering such an important detail as that. I cannot give the information now.	,


Edward Hackett: I regret that very much.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The regret is mutual for I would like to give it to my hon. friend if I knew.


Edward Hackett: Does the hon. minister intend continuing that second train a day between Summerside and Tignish which has been in operation about a year ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I know of no reason why it should not continue.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I am pleased to know that the. wages of the workingmen on the Prince Edward Island Railway have been increased. I wish to call attention to something which took place before the byelection in Queen's county last fall.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We heard something about that the other day.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I am going to tell you more about it. A number of men were employed filling in a hole for no other apparent reason than that their votes were wanted in the election. This particular piece of land had been vacant for thirty years ; there was no necessity for filling it in, because the location for the station has not been decided on yet, but in order to secure votes they started the men to work there. The government paid the poor labouring men the pittance of $1 a day, while private individuals in all parts of the island have to pay $1.25. $1.35 and $1.50. This munificent government paid the labourers only a dollar a day.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That would not get us many votes.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: That was the intention all the same. The government came in and cut down the price of labour.


Henry Robert Emmerson: In order to get their votes ; remember that.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Never mind that ; there was no other idea than to keep these men on the string until the election was over and as happened on many other occasions, the work was stopped immediately after the election.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The work was finished.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Your man was elected, but the work is not finished yet. I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that some three years ago there was a scheme on foot for pensioning the employees on the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway. Has this scheme been dropped or what has been done about it ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: 
Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Are they paid the same scale as on the Intercolonial ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Precisely the same. I want to say with respect to this pension scheme, that I have received from time to time during the session, since the work began, very pressing petitions from the Liberal members asking that it be brought to an early conclusion. I have been en deavouring to meet their wishes, and I hope that my hon. friends opposite will show the same interest in having it brought to completion. The employees on the Intercolonial are very much interested and very anxious, and in the Intercolonial I include the Prince Edward Island Railway. The members from that island have spoken to me repeatedly with regard to the scheme. I may add that a very unfair method of prejudicing the minds of the people against the Intercolonial is being pursued by my hon. friends opposite. I am sure that my hon. friend who has just spoken, the member for East Northumberland (Mr. Cochrane), would not be a party to any such
.COMMONS

tactics. There has come to my notice within the last twenty-four hours a little circular which has been circulated, I believe, by hon. gentlemen opposite, with respect to the wages paid on the government railway. This circular is marked No. 8. It says : *
Starvation wages paid by the Liberal government.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I have just given one instance.
Mr. EMMERSON (reading)

Workingmen, the Liberal government tells you it is giving you growing times and an era of prosperity. How does this prosperity square with the wages which the government has been paying the labouring men in its employ ? Turn up the last Auditor General's Report, and you will find (page W-161) that on the government railway such wages have been paid as these : Labourers, $1 per day ; freight porters, $1 per day ; trackmen, $L10 per day ; cleaners, $1.15 per day ; firemen, $1.20 per day. These men must have been getting fat on the government's prosperity, must they not. If they had been railway grafters instead of mere railway labourers, they might have done better.


Edward Cochrane: Hear, hear.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend applauds this statement.
The government is going to spend over $200,000,000 of your money on the Grand Trunk Pacific grafter scheme, because Cox cannot wait, but the labouring man has got to wait, because Cox cannot.
This reads like a dime novel.
And this is the government that says the workingman should be grateful to it because it is paying the Minister of Labour $8,000 a year. Is it not time for a change ? Put the Conservatives in power and get a living wage for the labouring man. The Conservatives paid for their errors in 1896.
This is a litttle admission-a sort of confession of faith.
-The Liberals must expect punishment for their vastly greater sins, and the government that succeeds theirs must be dealt with on its merits.	In other words, turn out one
government after another until the mandate can go to the world that the conscience of Canada is awakened.
This is a remarkable document. In the first place, there are in it one or two very glaring untruths, and it resolves itself down to one magnificent and colossal untruth. It says : ' Turn up the last Auditor General's Report,' Now this document is being circulated to-day in several constituencies in Canada.


Mr. COWAN.: What is the number ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Circular No 8.


Mahlon K. Cowan: What are the other seven like ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No doubt they are fit companions for this one. It says : ' Turn Mr EMMERSON.
up the last Auditor General's Report, page W-161. That would be the Auditor General's Report for 1903. And it adds, ' you will find that oh the government railways such wages have been paid as these '- enumerating the wages I have just given.


John William Bell: Did the minister turn up the report ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I did, and strange to say, I cannot find on page W-161 of the last Auditor General's Report the slightest reference to any wages paid on government railways to anybody, much less to the labouring men. I do not know whether that would be called lie No. 1, or whatever might be the number of the lie, but it is circular No. S.


Haughton Lennox: What is the date*?


Henry Robert Emmerson: It has no date. It has not even the signature of my hon. friend. It is anonymous. Whoever wrote it was ashamed of it. He was ashamed to date it and ashamed to sign it.


Edward Cochrane: A very nice way to get your estimates through.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Reference is made to the wages paid by the government on the government railways, and then the circular says :
And this is the government that says the workingmen should be grateful to it because it is paying the Minister of Labour $8,000 a year.
Is that true ?


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: What is his salary? I do not know.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The Postmaster General receives 87,000 a year, I think.


Edward Cochrane: 


Henry Robert Emmerson: No ; $7,000 as salarv, and I believe he attends to the duties of the Department of Labour without pav. Hon. gentlemen opposite would, of course, have the people of the country believe that we are paying the Minister of Labour $8,000 a year in addition to the Postmaster General.
I am simply showing the error in this circular. I do not wish the people of the country to have any misapprehension with respect to that matter. Now, I want to call the attention of the committee and of the country to the actual wages that are being paid, not merely on the Intercolonial proper, but also on the Prince Edward Island Railway. Section foremen in 1896 received $1.60 per day, in 1902 the rate was increased to $1.65, and in 1904 to $1.85. Section men received in 1896 $1.15, in 1902 $1.20, and in 1904 $1.40 and $1.50.


Samuel Hughes: May I ask the minister a question while I have it in mind ?
I think it would be advisable if he would kindly state to the House the details of the

excursion to Peterborough on Saturday morning to see the opening of the lift-lock.


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is more interesting to nay hon. friend, I know, than what I am now stating. I think it is unfair that the government system of railways should be prejudiced in that way, and I wish to call the attention of the House and the country to the actual conditions as against this fiction which is being circulated throughout the country with a view to damaging the railway, and, I suppose, incidentally doing some injury to the government.


John William Bell: When were these wages raised ?	*


Henry Robert Emmerson: They were raised last November.


John William Bell: I presume that was about the time the circular was issued. No doubt it bad a stimulating effect on the government.


Henry Robert Emmerson: This circular has been sent broadcast within the last month. The gentleman who received this one received it, I am informed, within a few weeks from some hon. gentleman opposite.


Samuel Hughes: That is a serious reflection on the Postmaster General. That is the literature he held up last year.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No ; that- was very bulky literature. This is apparently a very harmless little document that goes so stealthily that the attention of the Postmaster General would not called to it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think it was all posted last year, and the Postmaster General is responsible for its not getting to its destination.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Do not let us get away from the main point, that this is being issued by hon. gentlemen opposite.


William Mulock: This rubbish is in the hall, and is going out now. It Is being posted by hon. gentlemen opposite from their rooms.


Henry Robert Emmerson: If it had been sent out last year, it would not be true of that year If you look at the Auditor General's Report for~T902, at page W-161, you will not find any items corresponding With this. It would not be true, because at that time the government was not paying any wage on the Intercolonial as low as that. The wages of the section men were increased in 1902 to $1.20, and afterwards, if I mistake not, to $1.30.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did not the hon. minister admit the other day, in answer to a question. that he was paying a dollar a day in Prince Edward Island ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I stated that several men who were employed simply for a few hours were paid $1 each-not for a full day,
it was not a full day. If those men had been paid, as was insinuated, for the purposes of an election, I am sure the government would have been generous enough to have given them more handsome pay. If the government were paying them less than private corporations or individuals on the island, it would not secure many votes, because it would J>e looked upon as niggardly treatment.


Mr. LOGAN.: I would like to ask the minister, is it not a fact that the wages of the Intercolonial trackmen have been raised on three different occasions since 1896-1 think first in 1898 to $1.20, then in 1900 to $1.30, and in 1903 or 1904 to $1.40 and $1.50 ; and not, as the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Bell) says, only once, and that in last November 1


Henry Robert Emmerson: The wages were raised on three different occasions. The gem of this circular is in this sentence :
Put the Conservatives in power, and get a living wage for the workingman.
Put back the Conservatives, who were paying $1 and $1.05, and never more than $1.15, in place of the government, who are paying $1.40 and $1.50. Yes, the Conservatives paid 90 cents a day, and then they paid 99 cents ; they would not even pay a dollar ; they kept the odd cent off.
Mr. LEFURGEY\ The minister should remember that during the time this government has been in power the cost of living has increased fifty per cent and. in some cases, one hundred per cent. So, they can well afford to increase the wages of the labouring man fifty or seventy-five per cent.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I did not yield the floor to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lefurgey), but thought he wished to ask me a question. I think that if the request to put the Conservatives back into office were yielded to by the people, the new government would probably put the wages back to the old figure, and the country would certainly be put back very much more.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The minister is simply occupying time in which he should be attending to the business of the country by dealing with the estimates, but his conduct will he very much his own funeral. I rose to get information, but have not gained any. The minister spoke of this pension business but has no information from the actuaries in Prince Edward Island. The matter was brought up three years ago. What has he been doing all this time ? It is in this as in everything else they have taken hold of, from the fast line service on-mere delay and vacillation. As to their paying $1 a day to labourers in Prince Edward Island, that is an absolute fact while the winter wages at ordinary employment were from $1.25 to $1.50 regardless of the hours-the men work-

ed as long as they could. Not only is this kind of injustice done to the workingmen of [DOT] Prince Edward Island, hut in the government's big project of the Grand Trunk Pacific foreigners are brought from across the line to take the leading positions.


An hon. MEMBER.: No, no.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: That -is the evidence given before the commission appointed by the government-that positions are given to foreigners while our own engineers, who are perfectly competent for the work, are refused employment. I have received a communication from the railway employees of the Prince Edward Island and Intercolonial Railways at Moncton. It is addressed to me and reads as follows :
Moncton, N.B., March 15th, 1904.
Dear Sir,-At a strongly representative meeting of all classes of employees of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railways, held at Moncton on Tuesday, the 8th instant, it was decided to call your attention to the following matter, and the chairman and secretary of the meeting were by unanimous vote authorized to sign this communication :
About three years ago the Minister of Railways and Canals had a scheme prepared for the pensioning of employees on the government railways, something similar to that in operation on the different American and Canadian roads, but it was not brought up in parliament. The different brotherhoods and orders, as well as the employees generally, have now taken the matter up, and are pressing it through the present Minister of Railways and Canals, the Hon. H. R. Emmerson.
The orders are as follows :-
Order of Railway Conductors,
Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen,
Order of Railway Telegraphers, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen, Brotherhood of Railway Trackmen,
Order of Railway Clerks,
Union of Blacksmiths and Blacksmiths' helpers.
International Association of Machinists.
The western orders of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and the Grand Trunk Railway, are assisting those on the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railways.
In connection with the above we may say that the railway employees are not in the civil service, and cannot participate in the civil service superannuation.
All the other railways have pension schemes for ther employees, with the exception of the Grand Trunk scheme, are wholly supported by the companies without contributions from the men. The Grand Trunk employees contribute to the scheme, and the company also contributes very liberally. All the employees on the government railways wish to contribute to the proposed scheme in order that the benefits may be more material, and ask the government to contribute and assist them.
We trust that when this matter is brought up in parliament you, will give it your careful consideration, and, if possible, your hearty support. You will observe by the number of Mr. LEFURGEY.
orders represented that should the scheme be put through this coming session, it will be very popular with all classes of railway employees ; and your help will be much appreciated by all concerned.
Yours sincerely,
J. J. WALLACE, Chairman.
I trust that the minister will have a comprehensive scheme brought forward that will do justice to the men employed on the government railways. As to the conduct of the Prince Edward Island Railway, the vote for which is now before us, we are not at all satisfied with the management in many respects. I had occasion to wait upon the minister at one time myself and bring to his attention a case of gross inattention to the interests of farmers and working men of an important part of Prince Edward Island as well as of failure to properly manage the affairs of the road. I refer to the distribution of cars for the haulage of mussel mud and wood, two large industries carried on in the western part of Prince Edward Island. I gave the minister at that time some statistics in regard to the carriage of these products. The mussel mud is used as a manure by the farmers, and is a very necessary element to keep their land in condition. It is very extensively used along the whole length of the line. There are quite a number of truckmen and labourers engaged in digging this mud and hauling it to the railway. During the greater part of last winter, when they should have had twenty-seven cars per day, they had twenty-seven cars per week to carry this material. And this occurred in spite of the protests made. I myself wrote on several occasions to the superintendent, but got no relief for the men. It was not until I came up to interview the minister and when the winter was practically over and the wages of these men had been lost for the season that some relief was promised. Not only was this the case in mussel mud, but it was the case in the haulage of cord wood. In many cases people on the western end of the line had to put their cord wood in box cars to get it to the selling point. Now, this is, possibly, a matter of small import to the Minister of Railways and Canals and to this government, but it affects very materially the class of labourers and others who are dependent on this industry for their livelihood. I understand that there were ample cars on the road if proper foresight had been used in sending them where they were needed.
I understand the cars were on the Murray Harbour branch, and early in the season the superintendent promised to have these cars brought over and put into this service, but they were never brought over. The excuse given at the end of the winter was that there was a snow blockade, but even if there liad been, it was not heavy enough to prevent a business management from operating the cars and putting them

at the disposal of those men. This is a state of affairs that I trust the present Minister of Railways will look into more carefully than he had occasion to at the time. The people are not at all satisfied with the explanation given by the superintendent of the Prince Edward Island Railway, nor do I myself believe that it was a legitimate excuse for the shortage of cars in that locality during the whole winter. There is another matter I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister of Railways, and that is the fact that the service from Boston and western Canada down to Prince Edward Island via Point du Chene-the largest part of the tourist traffic and the largest part of the summer travel goes to Prince Edward Island by this route-has been for years past disgraceful. It is not certainly up to the equipment on any other branch of the Intercolonial, and is not fit for the growing travel to Prince Edward Island at the present time. The cars which run from Point dn Chene down, are not certainly of a class to induce the better class of tourists to patronize that line. They are usually the oldest cars on the line. There are no parlour cars that western travellers can take. I have a communication from the Charlottetown Development and Tourist Association, dated July 5th, asking that this matter be brought to the attention of the minister, and with the permission of the House I will read the letter and the resolution :
Sir,-At a meeting of the executive of this association held last evening, the inclosed resolution was passed, and copies thereof ordered to be forwarded to the Minister of Railways, to the members of parliament for this province, and to D. Pottinger, Esq., general manager Canadian government railways. I have been instructed to respectfully state that the resolution was moved because of several complaints reaching members of our executive with refereence to (1) the lack of accommodation obtainable in brst-elass coaches between St. John and Point du Chene.


Henry Robert Emmerson: To whom is that addressed ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: This letter is addressed to me.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The resolution ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The resolution was sent to the Minister of Railways.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Who sent it. and when ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The letter is dated July 5fh. and the resolution was passed and copies were forwarded, as I understand to the Minister of Railways, to the general manager of the Canadian government railways and to members of parliament.
(2) the necessity of providing a parlour car upon the road between these points.
This is a very necessary step, because people travel in parlour cars from the United
States and from the western provinces, they have parlour cars nearly all the way down, except over that strip of line. As the minister knows, the strength of a chain is its weakest link, and there is a weak link in this road running down from St. Jehn and Painsec to Point du Chene.
(3) because of the difficulty some travellers have experienced in obtaining information regarding the departure of trains from St. John to Point du Chene. This resolution is therefore respectfully submitted in the hope that you will do what you can to have the matter arranged in a manner more beneficial to the interests of this province.
I am, sir, your obedient servant,
A. C. IRWIN, Secretary.
Now it is a fact that this state of things has been protested against for years but apparently the difficulty has not been removed. This not only occurs in winter but in the summer time.
The resolution reads as follows :
Resolved, that in the opinion of the Charlottetown Development and Tourist Association, it is desirable to have a parlour car run through from Boston to Point du Chdne each day during the continuance of the through train, the present service being wholly inadequate and detrimental to summer travel to Prince Edward Island.
I bring this forward with due respect to the minister and the general manager, in the hope that they will look into fihese matters. I think the minister will realize that the travel coming there now, and which is increasing. requires more attention than has been afforded it over that portion of the line. I had occasion last year to speak of the extension of the railway along the water front in Charlottetown. I understand that nothing definite has been arrived at-by the government in this respect. The last two years I have been bringing this to the attention of the government, and the people of Charlottetown, the board of trade, and the city council are a unit on the necessity for this work. The merchants lliroughout the whole island who have to use the Charlottetown wharfs for the transhipment of their goods to different points on the island, are put to an expense that is not fair to them, they are inconvenienced in the transhipment of their goods along the Prince Edward Island Railway, and they have been working for this extension for a number of years. I submit that Phis Is a matter that cannot wait, we cannot wait five or six years more for these improvements that the people demand at once. Also in respect to the railway station the minister said the hole was being filled up for a railway station. I understood he stated in the House the other day they had not decided on a location for the railway station ; then why are they filling in this hole before the location is decided upon. A great majority of the better class of the people of Charlottetown, the board of

trade and the town council, have petitioned and sent resolutions and deputations to the minister, asking that the station be located at the intersection of Great George and Water streets, where the land is much higher and more available in the interests of Charlottetown than where the station is at present located. I understand that various offers have been made to the government of land, and that the prices are not unreasonable. But there are some political interests at work to have the railway down near the old station where it is at the present time, and the government are trying to keep the political strings dangling as long as possible before they decide where the depot shall be. Now I think there is only one possible place t'liat will suit the people of Charlottetown and that will at the same time be advantageous to the interests of the Prince Edward Island Railway.
I think the minister should not hesitate to have the station built at this point. There has been some talk of engineering difficulties but I have found the consensus of opinion among engineers of repute who understand the situation thoroughly to be that there are no engineering difficulties in the way. Besides that the railway would have to be brought to this point in being extended along the water front and part of the increased cost of putting the station at George and Water streets would necessarily go to the extension of the line along the water front. Then too the Marine Department has purchased a wharf there for the improvement of the government property and of the facilities at this wharf it would be advisable to extend the line that far. From the estimates I find that the minister has added an amount for Kinkora station. I pressed this on the minister for a number of years and I was very glad to have him look into the matter with me last year in a very reasonable way and insert the item and I am glad to see that he has included an item for establishing a station at this point. I pressed on the minister at that time the necessity for having a booking station there.
I trust that the additional $150 which I see in the estimates this year is for the establishment of a booking station at that point. Is that correct ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There is $150 in the supplementaries for a station at Kinkora. The lowest tenders exceeded the estimate of the department and the appropriation so that we had to increase the amount. The question of a booking station at that point has been under the consideration of the department, but the business at that station as shown by the returns would hardly justify making it a booking station. When the trade and prospects of the place would justify it the department would hope to establish a booking station there.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: 


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I went fully into this question with the minister several months ago and I stated to him exactly the situation there. I think he was visibly impressed with the necessity of having a booking station at that point. The inconvenience to shippers at this point is so great that they are practically unable to carry on their commercial intercourse with the rest of the island unless they secure a booking station.


Henry Robert Emmerson: When my hon. friend brought that matter to my attention and it was also pressed on me by other hon. members from the island I referred the matter to the officials of the government railways and their report was to the effect which I have just stated. I do not know anything about the matter personally ; I know that my hon. friend said that in his judgment there should be a booking station, but there are always these differences of opinion between outsiders and the officials. I must be guided in these matters by the judgment of the officials who are the ones who should know something about them.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I must contend that it is not fair for the management to take into consideration only the monetary returns from a station in a case of this kind. They should take into account tire inconvenience that is caused to the people by the lack of accommodation. I must insist that the case has not been fairly represented to the minister by the officers of his department or he would more favourably consider the claims of Kinkora to a booking station. I stated last year that these men have to go to Emerald to receive their goods and have to drive 12 or 15 miles or else waste a day on the train. Then these trains often arrive at midnight. A booking station would not cost the government much as they have to keep a man there now. At the same time I might just as well urge the necessity of having two trains daily on that branch. There is only one train a day now and for the convenience of the travelling public and of the commercial people down there, there should be two trains. I am glad to find that the minister has decided to grant a station at Kensington and an extension to their siding. Fredericton. Breadalbane and Alberton are also to have new stations. I understand that the Alberton station is to be a flne brick station according to the minister's statement last year. I would ask whether it is proposed to abolish the nuisance of the ' Y ' that is used in order to get into Alberton station. This is a very inconvenient way of getting into the town, and for a reasonable expenditure it could be remedied. The abolition of the ' Y ' is just ns important to the operation of the railway as is the straightening of a good many of the curves.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have given that matter considerable study personally ; I have also conferred with the officials, and T may say that this work would mean an expend!-

ture of probably $25,000. There is a similar ' Y ' on the Canadian Pacific Railway at Ottawa and they seem to get along very well notwithstanding. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the officials, the conditions prevailing at Alberton would-not justify such a large expenditure simply to avoid some little inconvenience in backing the trains.


Mr. INGRAM.: What is the distance ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: About 3,000 feet. This matter has been pressed upon me by a great many friends but I could not concur in their conclusion. I hope to have the pleasure of visiting the island in the near future.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: If the minister would come over and see the place I have no doubt he would change his mind.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Sherbrooke and Ottawa are in exactly the same position as respects the ' Y.'


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: That may be, but if Sherbrooke and Ottawa are content to remain in the slough, that is no reason why Prince Edward Island should not make progress. If the minister carried out these improvements on the island it would make him more popular.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Then you would feel bad.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Not at all. I am afraid that the people of Alberton have very little to hope for from the minister. The minister talks about an expenditure of $25,000, but that is a paltry sum to this government with their surpluses rolling in. If the Minister of Railways would whisper to the Finance Minister, he would tell him to go ahead, that it tvas only a drop in the bucket.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Then you would complain of the expenditure.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I am told by my colleague (Mr. Hackett) that the new stations at Northam and Richmond are going to be erected at once and I now remark that it is about time they should be. I again call the attention of the minister to the fact that the station accommodation at Summer-side is badly in need of improvement. The station is located just at the head of the railway wharf ; there is a considerable amount of traffic there every day, and serious accidents have occurred while others have been narrowly averted. This matter has been pressed upon the minister by the people of Summerside and by resolution of the Maritime Board of Trade, and I trust the hon. gentleman will give his attention to this matter immediately. I have many times brought to the attention of the House the construction of branch lines in Prince Edward Island, and I trust now to have the assistance of my hon. friend from King's * (Mr. J. ,T. Hughes) and my hon. friend from
Queen's (Mr. Haszard) in urging on the minister the necessity for railway extension. In Prince Edward Island there is only room for one system of railway, so that unfortunately we are debarred from the benefits which railway competition would give us. That being so the government should endeavour to meet the deficiency by affording adequate railway accommodation to the people. 'These branch lines have been promised to us more .than once and it is high time these promises were carried into effect. While the government has built the Murray Harbour branch for the people of that district, there are other localities on the island which are even more badly in need of railway communication. There is a branch badly needed from Westpoint to the main line. The facilities for shipping by water at West Point are not of the best, nor is it probable that a suitable harbour could be constructed there. The people have now no means of getting in their coal, and other supplies, or sending their products to the market. I hope the minister will see his w-ay to construct this branch line immediately. I have also brought to the attention of the House on many occasions the necessity of a branch line between Crapaud and North Wiltshire, and while I do not wish to elaborate on the arguments I have advanced on other occasions in favour of this undertaking ; I nevertheless earnestly press it upon the favourable consideration of the minister. During the by-election in Queen's, which resulted in fhe return of Mr. Haszard, there were strong resolutions passed in favour of a branch line from New London to a point on the main line of the Prince Edward Island Railway.
The necessity of a branch railway in that section of the island was very strongly- urged, and I understand that the hon. member for West Queen's (Mr. Haszard) gave his promise that if he were returned to parliament that branch would certainly be constructed. I hope the minister will give us his assurance to-night that that will be done. In order to fully round out the Prince Edward Island Railway and to put it in closer touch with the main line of the Intercolonial Railway, I would urge on the government the necessity of taking over the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island Railway, and making it the connecting link between the Prince Edward Island Railway and the Intercolonial. I believe the hon. Minister of Railways will see eye to eye with me as to the advantage this would be to both systems, and the added convenience it would be to the government in carrying out the terms of confederation with Prince Edward Island by providing a suitable service both winter and summer. I will not enter into any argument on this question to-night, but I submit it to the hon. Minister of Railways and his colleagues for careful consideration, and I believe


G235 COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
it will meet with their approval. Another matter connected with the railways, and allied very closely to them, is that of express accommodation between the western provinces and the eastern provinces. I understand that the Canadian Express Company has almost exclusive rights to a great many points on the Intercolonial Railway, while the Dominion Express Company is debarred from having access to those points. I know that the fruit growers of the west and the shippers of perishable products such as fish and meats in the maritime provinces, especially down about Canso, Halifax and other points not touched by the Dominion Express Company, are under a very serious disadvantage in getting their products to market. In many cases it is not possible to do so without the payment of a double ex-pressage. I have in my hand a letter from one of the shippers, which points out that resolutions were passed and forwarded to the Minister of Railways on this subject, and I would like to know from Mm later on in this debate what conclusion he has come to with regard to giving relief to the shippers in this matter. The following resolution was passed by the Board of Trade of Canso :
Whereas, the fish trade of Canso demands the very best transportation facilities possible, and whereas, the delays in the delivery of express shipments at present is one of the most serious obstacles to the building up of the business ; and whereas, wherever competition in express service exists a much better service is given ; therefore resolved, that we request the Minister of Railways to grant to the Dominion Express Company equal facilities and equal rights with the Canadian Express Company over all lines of the Intercolonial Railway.
This is a very serious matter, especially with regard to the shipment of fresh fish from the maritime provinces to western Canada : and speaking from my own experience. I think every facility should be given to the people of the maritime provinces to put a good article on the market, because there are no fish up here worth eating. The Council of the Halifax Board of Trade also passed a very strong resolution to the following effect and forwarded it to the Minister of Railways :
Whereas, the Dominion Express Company operates an express service on Intercolonial trains between St. John and Halifax affording competition to stations between these points ; and whereas, between Halifax and Sydney, and Truro and Sydney, the express service is confined to the Canadian Express Company, affording no competition to and from points reached by the Dominion Express Company on other lines of railway without two express charges being enacted ; and whereas, it is understood that the Dominion Express Company are willing to extend their service on all passenger trains of the Intercolonial Railway on same terms as are now grante 1 to the Canadian Express Company ; therefore resolved, that in thfe interest of im-Mr. LEFTTRGEY.
porters and shippers the council of the Halifax Board of Trade urges upon the Minister of Railways the advisability of granting the same terms to the Dominion Express Company as granted by the government to the Canadian Express Company ; and further resolved, that cbpies of this resolution he sent to the Minister of Railways, Finance and to the members for city and county of Halifax at Ottawa.
I would like to know from the minister that this matter has received his attention, and that he has some definite line of policy to announce to the House in regard to it.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES.: Have you anything from Manitoba ?


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The hon. gentleman is not possibly so much concerned for the interests of the maritime provinces as he might be. If we heard, his voice a little oftener upon certain subjects, for instance, the Elmira branch and some other matters, which he was loudly advocating when looking for votes in King's county, he would be much more appreciated. As 1 told him on one occasion, I am not here simply to represent my own constituency ; I consider myself as representing the Dominion of Canada at large ; and while the hon. gentleman does not see fit to look after his own constituency, I will have to point out ou the floor of this House certain needed improvements in that district. Coming back to the express companies, Prince Edward Island suffers from an added grievance in the fact that during the winter season all our express matter stops at Charlottetown, and we have to pay an extra amount to the Prince Edward Island Railway for its shipment to different parts of the island. That is certainly a great inconvenience to shippers.
Arrangements -with the railway could readily be made to give Georgetown, Souris, Summerside. Tignish. and Alberton express accommodation, and I would strongly urge on the minister the necessity of giving this increased accommodation to the importers in Prince Edward Island. Without trenching upon the matter of the conduct of the mails from the mainland, on which I shall have something to say on another occasion, I believe that there were twenty-eight days on which the mails came over, that Summer-side did not receive its foreign mail, and there were eighteen days on which these mails could have been forwarded to Summerside had the Department of Railways given the people a special train for their distribution, so that while the mails reached Charlottetown for distribution, they were held over there for many hours before they were forwarded to Summerside and points west, and on the other ten days the mails coming into the capes were sent to Charlottetown and brought back the following day. I have pointed out a great many of the grievances under which the people of Prince Edward Island are suffering in the matter of railway

and transportation facilities and also some on the mainland, and I think that if the hou. minister will take these seriously into his consideration, he will give better accommodation to the people of the different localities and the shippers and travelling public and wipe out a substantial part of the deficit which has been rolling up on the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island railways during the past season.


Mr. HASZARD.: It is not my intention to follow the hon. gentleman from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) in the long and somewhat rambling speech he has just delivered. The only conclusion I can draw from it is that he has abandoned the county of Prince and intends seeking election in Queen's county.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I have been offered the nomination down there.


Horace Haszard: No doubt he will find a few friends to encourage him, but if he accepts he will experience the same trouble there that he found himself in during the by-election as the electors did not pay much attention to him. The interests of the mussed mud diggers of his county are important, but had he stayed at home, when that industry was being carried on, in February last, and attended to the interests of his constituents, he might have met with more success. Instead of that he followed me through the riding of West Queen's and no doubt discovered that his chances for re-election in that part of the county were so slim that he is now looking for a nomination in Charlottetown. I do not believe in taking up the time of this House in airing our grievances and calling the attention of hon. gentlemen to them, who cannot be expected to be interested in these local matters. I appreciate the fact that much better and more effective work can be done by interviewing the proper ministers at the proper time, and I have no doubt that when the supplementary estimates are brought down I shall be able to convince the people of my riding that I have not been idle in attending to their requirements. The hon. gentleman also made some reference to the necessity of having a new station at Charlottetown-a question which has already been pretty fully threshed out. But his statement to-night does not agree at all with that of the hon. member'for Lincoln, who only a night or two ago said that the people of Charlottetown had no right to have anything to say regarding where that station should be built. I claim that the people should be consulted, and the question I think is now being dealt with in the only way that will be satisfactory to them. I shall not take up further time in following the hon. gentleman, but simply want him to understand that the people of Charlottetown and West Queen's have placed their confidence and trust in me. and if the hon. gentleman has no grievance to urge on behalf of Prince county, that speaks very well 199
for the government. They must certainly have been doing a good deal for that part of the island, since the hon. gentleman has confined his remarks almost altogether to the riding I have the honour to represent. No doubtriiowever, the speech which the hon. gentleman has delivered will be circulated broadcast throughout Canada, and possibly adorned by his photograph, as was the speech he made the other day.


Haughton Lennox: The hon. gentleman who has just spoken has failed to appreciate the ideas advanced by this side. The proposition advanced by this side is not that the people of the locality shall not have a voice in determining where a station shall be located, but that the matter shall not be made a political engine by which to win votes. What we contend is that the administration ought to take the responsibility of coming to a decision and not leave these items in. the estimates dangling before the public from year to year for election purposes. I want to ask the hon. minister whether there has been anything done with reference to the purchase of the Canada Eastern Railway. That was discussed a good deal some time ago in the press. It was said that the government were negotiating for its purchase, and at the time when the minister was considerably engaged outside the House, it was supposed that he was engaged in these negotiations. It would be interesting to the public to know how far that matter has advanced.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think what is of more interest at this moment is the item before the House. My hon. friend heard the announcement of the Prime Minister with respect to that matter, and if he will only possess his soul in patience he may learn something more about it.


Haughton Lennox: I did not happen to hear the Prime Minister and I do not think It would be out of place for the hon. gentleman to inform the committee in what position that matter is now.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that my hon. friend is travelling outside the record. We are not dealing with the Canada Eastern but with the Prince Edward Island Railway. But as my hon. friend says he did not hear the Prime Minister, I shall be very happy to tell him what the Prime Minister said. The Prime Minister said that there would probably be legislation introduced in this parliament having reference to the Cajiada Eastern Railway.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has the government purchased the Canada Eastern '!


Henry Robert Emmerson: That my hon. friend will probably learn in time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This would be a good time to give the information.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hon. member for East Prince (Sir. Lefurgey) seems to have



silently stolen away, but be made a number of statements and suggestions which call for some attention on my part. The first was as to the non-furnishing of sufficient cars on the Prince Edward Island Railway for the hauling of mussel mud. It was well known that the storms of last winter tvere very severe and impeded railway traffic in all parts of Canada. Prince Edward Island was no exception. For a time the railway was unable to carry on its traffic, and the shippers of mussel mud were not able to get cars as fast as they wished them or as fast as the railway would have liked to furnish them. But the difficulty was soon cleared away and the cars were supplied. He read a communication from the employees with reference to the pension scheme on the government railways. He received that communication in March last, and I am sorry he did not make it known to me. Almost all the members on this side received similar communlicajtions and thely made the matter known to me, and we have conferred with respect to it. Complaint is made with regard to the Boston travel. My bon. friend must know that during the past two seasons a special train has run between Point du Ch6ne and Boston, connecting with the train on the Boston and Maine. Cars come through from Boston to Point du Cheue, many of them ears of the Boston and Maine line. They are the same cars that are used on that line and on the Maine Central system, and are quite up to the standard of that system. It seems to me they should be fairly capable of meeting the requirements of the Intercolonial. This is a special train, and makes very quick time between Point du Chene and St. John and, in fact, right through to Boston.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it a mixed train ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: An express train. It connects with the Prince Edward Island Steam Navigation Company's steamer on her arrival and departure. The hon. gentleman also spoke of the line of railway along the harbour front in Charlottetown, and complained of the delays on the part of this government and of the Intercolonial manage ment. There is one very significant fact that he withheld from this committee. When he criticised this government and the present management of the Intercolonial on this point, he was certainly presenting a very severe indictment against my hon. friend from South Lanark (Mr. Haggart). When my hon. friend from South Lanark was Minister of Railways in 1888, if he was minister at that time-


Mr. HAGGART.: No.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Then his predecessor in the Conservative government, which certainly was in power at that time-Mr. P S. Archibald, then engineer of the Intercolonial. was sent to Charlottetown and made a Mr. EMMERSON.
survey for a railway along the harbour front of that city. The year 1888 passed, and 1889, and so on up to and including 1896, during all of which time hon. gentlemen opposite were in power, and yet nothing was done. I do not know that my hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey) made any complaints against the government of that day with respect to their delay. This matter has received the attention of this government, and progress has been made. The proper connections are being made, and in due time the terminals at Charlottetown will be completed. Provision has been made in the estimates in connection with the station and the yards, and that is certainly more than the previous government did, though they led the people to believe that it would be done when they made that survey. The booking station to which the hon. gentleman refers would be at a place where the total freight earnings in the yard would not be enough to pay the expenses of maintaining the station. It would cost $700 a year to conduct, and the general manager advises me that there would not be that much of freight receipts in a year. It will be seen, therefore, that the officials on the Intercolonial are justified in reporting against it. But if circumstances later on justify it, we will establish it as a booking station. One of the hon. members cm the other side-I think it was my hon. friend from Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster)-stated last night that we should rely upon the judgment of the officials of the road and not consult the wishes of the people. I had stated that the people of Charlottetown could not agree on a site for the station, and the hon. gentleman condemned me for consulting the people. That seems to be the new doctrine of hon. gentlemen apposite-or it may be their old doctrine. We are endeavouring to consult the wishes of the people and to meet their requirements in every possible way.


Haughton Lennox: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Emmerson) was good enough to answer me with regard to the Canada Eastern. It would facilitate matters if he would state whether there is any foundation for the statement made in the newspapers the other day that the government was about to purchase the Canada Atlantic. Probably it would save time, and certainly would be more satisfactory to the committee in dealing with these estimates, if the hon. gentleman would tell us if that statement is well founded.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I was asked that question by one of the reporters last night, and I gave the answer. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lennox) will look at the Toronto.
Globe ' of this morning-


Andrew B. Ingram: Never read it.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I feared that. My hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) will remain in a benighted condition as long as he does not read the

Toronto ' Globe.' I made the statement last night, and I do not propose to enter into a discussion of that matter now. It would be entirely out of order. But I wish to be courteous to my hon. friend, and I will tell him where he can find the information.


Haughton Lennox: Then the statement in the ' Globe ' is correct ?


Edward Hackett: Does the minister intend to take action this session with regard to a pension to the railway employees on the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railway ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Perhaps my hon. friend did not hear me say that I hoped before the session was through to be able to introduce such a Bill. The premier stated from his place in the House the other day that such a Bill would probably be brought before parliament.


Edward Hackett: The hon. member for West Queen's (Mr. Haszard)'stated that the supplementary estimates were going to show something good for Prince Edward Island.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have no doubt they will.


Edward Hackett: Would the minister state now what these supplementary estimates will contain ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I have no idea what is in the mind of my hon. friend who made that statement, therefore I cannot answer for him.


Edward Hackett: Well it is difficult to get information on these matters respecting Prince Edward Island. There are two of ns here, my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey). and myself, and we stand up for the rights of Prince Edward Island on every possible occasion where we think we can advance the interests of her people. Now the hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) this evening made what I consider a very unkind and very ungrateful remark. When my hon. friend from East Prince was speaking on matters affecting Prince Edward Island, the hon. member for King's interrupted him with the remark, What about Manitoba ? Are you going to advocate matters in connection with Manitoba ? Sir, it is too small. We are here representing Prince Edward Island, we are advocating the rights of Prince Edward Island, and when one of her representatives stands up here and advocates the rights of Prince Edward Island, he is told that he should also advocate matters in connection with Manitoba. I say it is unkind and ungrateful on the part of that hon. gentleman. Sir. the opportunity has arrived for the people of Prince Edward Island to be represented in matters affecting their interest, we wish to see justice done to our people in connection with railway stations and branch lines. Now the minister said that the Murray Harbour 1994
branch would be opened shortly. How is that progressing ? Is it intended to open it shortly ? How is the Hillsboro bridge getting along ? Will the Murray Harbour branch be open before the Hillsboro bridge is built ?


James Joseph Hughes: I want to say one word to my hon. friend who has referred to me. He says that I interrupted the hon. member for Erst Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) with a very unkind remark. That is not quite correct. The hon. member for East Prince was wandering in his speech all over the Dominion of Canada ; he was referring to Sydney, to Halifax and pretending that he had received communications from those ;cit.ie>s, that he had to discuss matters in relation to them. Certainly he was not then advocating the interests of Prince Edward Island, in fact, in my judgment, he was making himself-well, he was trying to spread out, and instead of advocating the interests of Prince Edward Island he was looking after other parts of Canada, and it was then that I interposed with the remark and asked if he had any communication from Manitoba.


Edward Hackett: After hearing the hon. member's explanation I repeat again that his interjection was unkind and ungrateful to the people of Prince Edward Island. My hon. friend from East Prince was advocating a better system on the Intercolonial, he was perfectly within his right in advocating an improvement of that system from Moncton to Halifax, he was justified in advocating that better accommodation should be given to the tourist travel over the main line of the Prince Edward Island Railway during the summer season. He complained that a change had been made at Painsec Junction, and that passengers travelling over the line had to change cars, and to go out of what might be called a fairly good palace car into an old dilapidated car that had been used for twenty years. The Minister of Railways said that was not so. I travelled myself over that line a little more than a month ago.- There is one car that goes to St. John, a Canadian Pacific Railway car I think it is.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, it can't be that.


Edward Hackett: Then it must be a Boston and Maine car. There is only one car that goes through, and the passenger who has not been able to get a seat in that car must go out and hunt up another car to go down to Point du Chene.


Henry Robert Emmerson: When one car is filled up he has to get into another. Is that it ?


Edward Hackett: Yes. Now would you imagine in an up-to-date railway that all the travellers going down from Painsec Junction to Point du Chene have to change cars ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: They don't change at Painsec, the train goes right through.


Edward Hackett: Only one ear goes through.


Henry Robert Emmerson: But this season, during the summer travel, or the tourist travel as it is called, there is a special train known as the Boston train that goes right through from Boston to Point du Chene to connect with the island steamers, and it returns from Point du Chene right through to Boston. Some of the cars are Boston and Maine cars, others are Intercolonial cars. My hou. friend is certainly not well informed with respect to that matter, or he would not say that they have to change at Painsec. It is a through train, and is known as a special schedule train, it is on the time table of the Intercolonial and is known on the time table as the Boston train.


Edward Hackett: That change must have taken place very recently.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is only during the summer season when the tourist traffic is on.


Edward Hackett: I had to change cars on May 15th.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Summer had not come then nor had the tourists.


Edward Hackett: It ought to be along on May 15th if we are to have any at all.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Last year there was the same improvement during the tourist season.


Edward Hackett: I want to resent the insult cast upon my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) when he was advocating something in the interests of Prince Edward Island by the hon. member for King's (Mr. J. J. Hughes). The people of Prince Edward Island are all interested in having a large tourist travel and wTe want to have the best accommodation possible from Painsec Junction to Point du CMne, because we have as good boats between Point du Chene and Summerside as can be found in Canada or anywhere else, and therefore in order that we may keep up a good system of travel between the continent of America and Prince Edward Island it is necessary that we should have fairly good accommodation between Point du Chene and Painsec Junction. In regard to the station at Ivinkora, which is a good old Irish name, I may say that accommodation is required there for the factories, manufacturing all kinds of agricultural implements, and for the people of the surrounding district, which is one of the best farming portions of p.ur island, inhabited by a thrifty, hardy, intelligent people. Does the minister not think it necessary to build a station there which would provide the accommodation of a booking station ? I would appeal to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) who was in that Mr. EMMERSON.
province during a by-election some few years ago and who promised these people great things. He said : We are going to build a station ; you will have a booking station and all the facilities you require ; we will place you on the same footing as other parts of Prince Edward Island.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Hold him to it.


Edward Hackett: Will you do it now, may I ask the hon. Minister of Finance ?


William Stevens Fielding: All the promises I made, if I made any, to the people of Prince Edward Island have been fulfilled long ago. I do not wait until this time to fulfil them.


Edward Hackett: What about the station?


William Stevens Fielding: Never, never, never; it is a dream of my hon. friend (Mr. Hackett).


Edward Hackett: It is a dream now, it is a dream of the past. You have forgotten all about what you promised to the people of Emerald and Kinkora in this connection. I met the minister at some of those meetings and he promised everything a minister could promise to obtain votes to elect his candidate.


William Stevens Fielding: He got them, too.


Haughton Lennox: As we are dealing with the total working expenses of the government railway system, it is perfectly right that the committee should be informed distinctly and explicitly as to whether the government proposes to purchase this Canada Eastern Railway, and the terms upon which the purchase is to be made. It wrould be only right and fair if he gave us full information in regard to the purchase of this railway, which I believe is owned by a gentleman in the House, a supporter of the present administration.


Hance James Logan: The statement was made by the Prime .Minister that this purchase was under consideration, and that the probabilities were that legislation to that effect would be brought down this session. I do not think it is fair to press the minister any further, in reference to this matter. For my own part, I only hope it is true that we are going to buy the Canada Eastern and I hope that this is only the commencement of the policy of purchasing all the feeders of the Intercolonial in the maritime province^. I am convinced that if the Grand Trunk Railway or the Canadian Pacific Railway owned the Intercolonial, it would not be many months before they would acquire not only the Canada Eastern, but the other small railways, such as the Havelock Railway, the New Brunswick Railway previously spoken of. the Cumberland Railway and Coal Company, the lines of the Canada Coals and Railway Company and the other feeders to the Intercolonial Railway in the maritime provinces. I believe that this wise policy will be adopted in the future in reference

to these small railways In those provinces. Many of these railways are so conducted that the road-bed is not in proper shape, and many of the roads-although I do not now refer to the Cumberland Railway and Coal Company's lines-are not maintained in safe condition and accidents have happened which would not have happened if the government owned the railways and kept them up to the standard of the Intercolonial Railway.	.
i am firmly convinced that this is the proper policy'to adopt in reference to these feeders to the Intercolonial Railway. I did not intend to speak in the committee, but there seems to be a plan amongst hon. gentlemen on the other side to obstruct business, and I do not see why I should not have something to say as well as these gentlemen. We have had to-night a sample of the varied'views of the opposition upon the question of railway operation. The hon. member for East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) had the floor for more than an hour while he called upon the Minister of Railways to build in his district of Prince Edward Island. stations and sidings by the score, to make improvements without number, to run more trains, to build branch lines, and last but not least, to purchase the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island Railway. I tried to figure what would be the probable cost of carrying out his requests, and I find that it would amount to between $2,000,000 and $3,000,000. My hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Lennox) on the other hand, has referred to a large expenditure on the Intercolonial Railway as most reprehensible.


Haughton Lennox: I have done nothing of the kind.


Hance James Logan: Well, it does not make much difference anyway what the hon. gentleman iMr. Lennox) said in reference to the matter.


Haughton Lennox: It makes some difference that the hon. gentleman should misrepresent me.


Hance James Logan: I will not hesitate for a moment to take the hon. gentleman s woid, but I shall quote even a higher authority than he is on that question. I shall quote the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Haggart) who I have no doubt will be the Minister of Railways in the next Conservative government, whenever the time comes that a Conservative government is in powei.


John Dowsley Reid: Next election.


Mr EMMERSON.: I am sorry to think that my hon. friend (Mr. Haggart) will not live that long.


Hance James Logan: I regret that my hon. friend from Lanark (Mr. Haggart) whom we all respect so much and whose genial niantiei we appreciate is not a younger man , because gray as his hair is now, it will be whiter than the driven snow before he has a chance to be Minister of Railways again. However, he was Minister of Railways once upon a time, and a few evenings ago in discussing the expenditure on the Intercolonial Railway, with tears in his eyes almost, and with a'tremor in his voice, he proclaimed :
Has the Minister of Railways no pity for the poor ratepayers of Canada ? .... Is the House going to submit to this ? .... Is the country going to submit to it ? ..	The
building of deep water termini and such thongs are interminable and are not justified at all ... . The Intercolonial Railway is a sink hole.
The hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Hag-o-artl denounced the building of sidings on the Intercolonial Railway, hut now the member for East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) demands sidings and improvements on the Prince Edward Island Railway which would cost millions of dollars. How can the people of Canada take the opposition seriously ? They are as much divided on this question as they are on the question of government ownership. I have no doubt that the speech of my hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey) was not intended for this House but for his constituents and I am convinced that that speech in pamphlet form will supply interesting reading by the firesides of East Prince m the cold winter evenings. Now, as to tne request with reference to the express companies ; I believe it is the general desire of the people living along the Intercolonial Railway that the Dominion Express Company should have the same privileges on that railway as are enjoyed by the Canadian Express Company. A number of us on tnis side of the House have recently waited upon the Minister of Railways in reference to this matter, and he has promised a sympathetic consideration, and expressed the hope that he will be able to look into the question within the next few weeks. I have no doubt the minister will come to the conclusion that the request of the Dominion Express Company 'should be granted. The hon. gentleman from East Prince (Mr Lefurgey) complained that there was a lack of cars'on the Prince Edward Island Railway. Iam sorry to say that there is also a ' lack of cars on the Intercolonial Railway, as I know from experience because 1 have just been endeavouring to secure cars for certain excursions which would not be objected to by my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Sam. Hughes) or my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule). There is undoubtedly a lack of rolling stock on the government railways, but liow are we going to remedy that deficiency if attention is paid to the argument of the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart) who says that the Intercolonial Railway is a sink hole, and (that such expenditure is unjustifiable? We

need rolling stock, and a good deal of it.' and I hope tlie Minister of Railways will make provision to supply sucli rolling stock as is required. We have on the Intercolonial Railway some magnificent trains ; we have the best road-bed in the Dominion of Canada. but we have not sufficient passenger or freight cars. There is complaint from the shippers of the maritime provinces that they cannot secure facilities for the shipment of lumber and hay and other products. My hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey) has referred to the tremendous crowds of people coming! from Boston to Prince Edward Island. I am glad to know that the exodus from Prince Edward Island has ceased and that the people are returning to that fertile province in such prosperous circumstances that they can afford to travel in parlour cars. But what has the hon. member for East Prince to complain of ? During the ten months of the last fiscal year ending on the! 1st of May, this government has spent the sum of -$364,924.66 chargeable to capital account on the Prince Edward Island Railway. What more does my hon. friend want? This government has spent on the Prince Edward Island road within the last few years over $2,000,000 on capital account. It would seem to me as if the government was doing its duty to the Prince Edward Island, Railway in this regard. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lefurgey) will only be patient he will find that the present government will amply supply the wants of the people of Prince Edward Island in the matter of railway accommodation.


John Dowsley Reid: Whenever the Minister of Railways is asked an important question I notice that some of his supporters pop up and endeavour to evade the issue raised. The Minister of Railways apparently has not the confidence of his supporters to such an extent that they will allow him to answer a question.


Mr. ALEX. JOHNSTON.: You were not present to hear the minister answer the question.


John Dowsley Reid: I have been here all day trying to hear him answer.


Alexander Johnston: Where were you yesterday and the day before ?


John Dowsley Reid: I have been in this House as much as you have, and taken a greater part in the debates.


Alexander Johnston: 1 can say that that statement is absolutely and unqualifiedly a false statement.


John Dowsley Reid: If the hon. gentleman had the manners of any decent man he would not make that statement. It is only a man of his reputation who would do so. There was a question asked from the" Minister of Railways about the purchase of Mr. LOGAN.	[DOT]
the Canada Eastern Railway, and he has not answered it. There is a vote before this House for $7,000,000. and we are entitled to an answer "as to the policy of the government on that matter before we pass this item.


Alexander Johnston: It is indeed refreshing to hear the voice of the hon. gentleman in this chamber once more. There is one thing about him, that when he does come in, which is a rare occurrence, he tries to make himself heard, and I congratulate him upon giving us his views on matters pertaining to the administration of the Intercolonial Railway. I desire, however, to point out that certain anomalies crop up from time to time in these discussions on the Intercolonial. I had intended to reply to certain matters brought up by the hon. member for East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey), who addressed the House at great length this evening ; but the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) having replied, it is not necessary for me to do so again. It was my intention to remind him that a communication was received by him in March last in regard to a matter of extreme importance to the employees of the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway. I intended to ask him before he concluded his observations wTkat action he had taken in regard to that communication. -Several members on this side of the House have received the same communication ; but they have not treated it as did the hon. member, who tonight professed such great anxiety for the interests of those people. They went to the minister in regard to the representations there made, they were received favourably by him, and I hope the impression they made on the minister will bear fruit that will be appreciated by the employees of the Intercolonial RailVay and Princ^ Edward Island Railway. If they had desired to use this matter for political purposes, it is probable that they would have kept these letters and resolutions in their pockets and waited three or four months to bring them up in the House and parade them before the people of this country to show that they were interested in those railway employees. They did not do that. They preferred to go about this matter in a businesslike way, and I have no doubt the employees of the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway will reap the benefits of the efforts those members on this side of the House have made in their interests. It is important that the people who have communicated with the hon. gentleman should know that * the communication which they sent him in March last has remained in his pocket, and that he has not brought it to the attention of either the minister or the country until after the lapse of four months. They will hardly thank him for his conduct in this matter. They will realize that it is not so much the interests of the people employed on

tlie Intercolonial Railway or the Prince Ed ward Island Railway that he desires to promote as it is his own interests.


Edward Hackett: Might I ask the hon. gentleman how long it is since he waited on the minister with regard to the railway employees ?


Alexander Johnston: I want to say to my hon. friend and the committee that before this year, before that communication had been received, before the present Minister of Railways had assumed his present office, hon. members on this side of the House, together with myself, moved for a measure of this character, which I hope the Minister of Railways will submit to this House before the present session closes.


Edward Hackett: That is very unsatisfactory. My hon. friend from East Prince read a document here, signed in March last. Has the hon. gentleman waited on the hon. minister since ; and, if so, what effect has he had on the minister ?


Alexander Johnston: I certainly have. Immediately on receipt of that communication I brought its subject matter to the attention of the minister, not for the first time, and again urged, upon him the desirability of passing such a measure in the interest of those people.


Edward Hackett: My hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey), from purely patriotic motives, in the interest of the employees of the railway, brought this matter before the attention of this committee this evening. Now, my hon. friend (Mr. Alex. Johnston) desires to reflect upon my hon. friend from East Prince, and to take the credit to himself. He said he had been working for a year or for two years. What success has he yet achieved in those two years ? The hon. member for East Prince had the manliness to come forward and present to this committee this document, signed by thc-different associations down there.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Where has the document been in the meantime ?


Edward Hackett: The original was before the minister. This is a copy that was sent to the hon. member for East Prince, and the hon. minister must also have had it before him. Why did the hon. gentleman not bring this matter before this parliament before ? Why did he wait for two years to have it brought up ? While my hon. friend from East Prince has been working in the interest of the railway employees, the hon. gentleman has remained as dumb as an oyster. I want to say one word in reply to the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), who has also made an attack on the hon. member for East Prince. He says we require millions of dollars. We require no millions of dollars. This government undertook to build a branch line from Southport to Murray Harbour, which has cost $1,000,000 or 12,000,000. They also undertook to build a bridge. The accommodation required on the main line of the railway does not require millions. It would only take a few thousand dollars to grant this accommodation to the people. I made the remark a few minutes ago that when the Minister of Finance was down there he made great promises to the people of Prince Edward Island with regard to providing accommodation of this kind, but he has failed to carry out those promises. To come down to a later date, I find that the hon. gentleman last year made promises in parliament which he has not carried out. On an item for increased accommodation at Charlottetown, $87,000, we had the following discussion :


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: What work does this vote contemplate ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 'We are proposing to have a new station with covered platform, additional freight shed accommodation, additional land required for the purpose, re-arrangement of the yard, additional siding room, additional wharf accommodation, with dredging, and the usual allowance for engineering, inspection and advertising. The largest item is the new station and platform, $55,000 ; the next, the rearrangement of the yard, $11,000.
I ask the Minister of Finance, who was then administering the Railway Department, what has he done with regard to that Charlottetown station. Has he carried out that promise made last year ?


William Stevens Fielding: My hon. friend has spoken of some promise. I do not know of any. We took an appropriation to provide Charlottetown with a new station and we mean to do it. It could not very well have been done after parliament prorogued last October. My hon. friend can make his mind easy, Charlottetown will have a new station.


Edward Hackett: The people of Charlottetown are supposed to wait until doomsday for the accomplishment of these-promises. Year after year a certain amount has been appearing in the estimates for the purpose of building a railway station, and nothing is done. And the same statement which the Finance Minister made a mometvt ago is made every year. He was down there last autumn when it was supposed the elections were approaching. That was before the Grand Trunk Pacific difficulty. He must have looked over the site, and certainly can now whisper into the ear of his colleague that something should be done In connection with the building of this station.


William Stevens Fielding: I will whisper.


Haughton Lennox: Is the minister going to answer the question I put regarding the purchase of the Canada Eastern Railway ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I did not think my hon. friend was serious. He knows that I am not privileged to declare the policy of the government. The Prime Minister is the one to make announcements of that kind. When the matter is in a condition to be brought before parliament, it will come up in the regular way.


Haughton Lennox: I am not gifted with the power of humour which the hon. minister possesses.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No one would charge you with humour.


Haughton Lennox: But in all seriousness I consider that parliament has a right to the information I have asked. We have got two rival policies before us. We have the policy propounded by the government of building the Grand Trunk Pacific and crippling the Intercolonial. On the other hand, we have the proposition involved in the question of whether this additional feeder shall be purchased to increase the usefulness of the Intercolonial. The question before us now is whether we shall or not devote a matter of some $7,000,000 to the maintain-ance of these roads.


Henry Robert Emmerson: $6,500,000, and we have passed that item. We are now over on the island and the Canada Eastern is not on the island.


Haughton Lennox: We have not yet passed vote No. 250, which is one of $7,000,000, we are considering its various subdivisions. In considering the question whether we shall vote this money or not, we have the right to insist on being informed of the policy of the government. We have the right to know whether, notwithstanding the policy of building a transcontinental railway, which will necessarily cripple 'the Intercolonial, we shall adopt as a rival policy the extension of the principle of government ownership, by purchasing the Canada Eastern as a feeder for the Intercolonial. It is all important that we should know exactly where the government stand in this regard. We have the announcement of the First Minister that the principle of government ownership is to be extended by the purchase of this railway, because he informed us that there probably would be legislation brought down this year having reference to it. That could mean nothing else except legislation for the purpose of acquiring this road. Therefore the committee is entitled beyond question to this information at this time. We have to determine not only whether we shall devote $7,000,000 to the ordinary expenditure of the Intercolonial and the other road for the year ending 1905, but also that other question which is involved in it, and that is whether we shall connect the Intercolonial with this Canada Eastern, which it is said the government contemplate purchasing. The two things go Mr. LENNOX.
together, and it is time the House knew exactly what the government propose doing.


Andrew B. Ingram: Has the Prince Edward branch sufficient rolling stock to meet its requirements ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am informed by the general manager that it would be very desirable to have some more.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is not much satis-, faction in that answer. What class of cars is required ? What is the rolling stock that is deficient ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: There has been enough to meet the requirements. Business is increasing and as it increases we shall need more.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the number of cars ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: The total number is 446.


Andrew B. Ingram: And the number of box cars is 213 ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: What portion of these are in active service ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: All of them, except about five per cent that are usually undergoing repairs.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that the failure in the train service on the Prince Edward Island Railway last winter was due to the snow blockade ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That is what I was informed at the time, and I so informed my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey). On receiving the complaint, I communicated with the officials, and that is the answer I got.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. gentleman look over the train mileage of the road and tell us what was the mileage for August ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: It was 25,429.	,


Andrew B. Ingram: And the snow blockade, I
suppose, took place about January or February ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think it-was during March.
. Mr. INGRAM. Will the hon. gentleman tell us what is the train mileage for March 1


Henry Robert Emmerson: It was 21,936.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, if business was the same, the falling off due to the snow blockade would be about as 25,000 to 21,000. Now, my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) stated that there was an ' insufficiency in the train service all winter.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am Informed by the general manager that the road has a larger number of trains in summer than in winter.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, that explanation makes the position of my hon. friend from East Prince all the stronger. It would show that the snow blockade affected the brain mileage very little or not at all. The minister has not thought this out. The excuse he makes is not in accordance with the figures he has given.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The statement I made was that the management reported to me, in answer to the complaint put in, that it was because of the snow blockade they could not furnish the cars, and I gave that answer at the time. The delay was only for a short time as I understand it. Soon after he made the complaint my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) said that the matter was all right.


Andrew B. Ingram: But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Emmerson) made the statement that it was owing to the snow blftckade.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Because my officials told me so.


Andrew B. Ingram: But the hon. gentleman is responsible for what his officials tell him


Henry Robert Emmerson: Certainly; I am taking the responsibility.


Andrew B. Ingram: But surely the hon. gentleman (Mr. Emmerson) will see the point. My hon. friend from East Prince said that the necessary train accommodation had not been furnished during the winter. The minister puts forward the excuse of the snow blockade. Any gentleman looking over the railways and canals report can satisfy himself that there was more snow in 1903 than in 1902. because in 1902 the snow ploughs were used for 2,330 miles, while in 1903 they were used for 14.020 miles. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Emmerson) will see that this additional mileage was in March. If that be true


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend (Mr. Ingram can save himself a great deal of energy if he will recall the fact that this was during the month of March, 1904, and he is quoting the month of March, 1903. My hon. friend is quoting figures from the month of March, 1903. He is only a year out of the way.


Andrew B. Ingram: The minister may be perfectly right, I have no doubt he is.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hon. gentleman might save himself a good deal of fury.


Andrew B. Ingram: How did it come to pass that the snow blockade in 1902 prevented the cars from being used in Prince Edward Island ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I was speaking of the snow blockade this last winter. The complaint was made with respect to cars during March and February of this past year. But my hon. friend is quoting figures and returns for the year previous.


Andrew B. Ingram: Now the hon. gentleman's snow blockade took place in the month of March. He could only say that in the month of March a snow blockade interfered with the cars and the trains. Now he explains that it was in January, February and April.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, I did not say there was a snow blockade only in the month of March. We know that in Ontario and New
Brunswick, and other points there were snow blockades in February and January, and there may well have been in Prince Edward Island also.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the snow blockade during the whole of the winter months prevented the train accommodation in Prince Edward Island being what the people required and desired


Henry Robert Emmerson: There was no complaint about the train accommodation of the island, or if there was a complaint, it came from a certain class of men who were hauling mussle mud to their farms. This last year they were a little late because of the deep snow, and they complained. But the general train service of the Island has not been complained of, that I have heard.


Andrew B. Ingram: One of the representatives of Prince Edward Island has taken up nearly an hour in complaining of insufficient train service, and the hon. gentleman said that it was owing to the snow blockade.


Henry Robert Emmerson: No. As I understood the complaint of the hon. member Cor East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey), and as it was presented to me in communications wlncii L received, and about which I telegraphed in March last to the officials, it was merely from the mussel mud men who could not get enough cars. They wanted twenty-seven a day, I think it was, and they did not get that number in a week. The reason they did not get them in that week was the snow blockade, at least that is the reason assigned by the officials, they could not furnish the cars. I telegraphed to them, and immediately after that blockade was removed these men got all the cars they wanted.


Andrew B. Ingram: My hon. friends were complaining about insufficient cars, the member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) also made a similar complaint. Let me mention that the revenue from the Prince Edward Island Railway for ten months was $189,894, and the expenditure during the same period was $255,056. The expenditure was more than $65,000 over the revenue. Now we find complaints about the insufficiency of cars, those who desired to ship could not secure cars in order to increase the revenue of that road. I tried to find out from the hon. gentleman if they had sufficient rolling stock to meet the requirements, and he has not explained to this House satisfactorily whether they have or not. He says they could put up with

more. Surely if the road is losing $05,000 in ten months owing to a shortage of cars, then it is necessary to have more cars to meet the requirements of trade. The hon. gentleman has not given us a satisfactory explanation with respect to that. Now the hon. member for Cumberland rose to answer some questions, and so did the hon. member for Cape Breton. I understand that some of these gentlemen, and this is not the first time, have interfered with that road. I understand some of these gentlemen go so far as to say that they must have trains to meet their convenience, and they simply give orders to the station agents : You must hold these trains till I am ready to go. X understand that has been done, and when one of the station agents refused to interfere with the progress of the trains, he was removed.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Will the hon. gentleman give the names ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, I will give the hon. gentleman a name privately, it is a member of this House.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I would like my hon. friend to be kind enough to give the name now.	,


Andrew B. Ingram: I will give it privately.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is not fair to hon. members of this House for the hon. gentleman to make that statement without giving names. The statement is made publicly, and it is but fair to give the name of the offender and of the official who was dismissed. I think it is due to the management that their names should be reported. 1 am sure that the hon. gentleman has been misinformed.


Andrew B. Ingram: I hope so.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I am satisfied that he has been, and I will make this statement, challenging successful contradiction' that there never has been an official dismissed from the railway becausq he refused to detain a train at the request of a member of parliament or of anybody else.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. gentleman go so far as to say that a station agent was not removed for refusing to comply with the request of a member of parliament ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I will go so far as to deny that, if any request to detain a train was made by a member of parliament, the station agent was dismissed because he refused to detain the train. Now it is due to the department


Andrew B. Ingram: I did not say that, you are not going to put words down my throat.


Henry Robert Emmerson: If my hon. friend wishes to withdraw


Andrew B. Ingram: I withdraw nothing, I am not here to withdraw anything I have said. What I did say was that it was reported to Mr. INGRAM.
me that a certain member of this House went to a station agent and asked him to detain a train to suit his convenience. The train was not detained by the agent and by reason of the train not being detained, the agent was removed from that station.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I give that a most unqualified contradiction.


Andrew B. Ingram: Very well ; I am very glad to hear that.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Nothing of the kind ever occurred. I think my hon. friend should in fairness to the hon. members from the maritime provinces give the name of his informant, the name of the member, the name of the station agent and the particular station. I think that information is due in all fairness.	.


Andrew B. Ingram: I told the hon. gentleman that I would give^him the name privately.


William Ross: We want it publicly.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will do as I like about that.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that in fairness the name should be given. A stigma is placed on some one member of this House. That member should be known and if the charge is not true he should have an opportunity of giving it a contradiction, otherwise all the members from the maritime provinces are under that stigma.


Andrew B. Ingram: The member whose name I have is a good respectable member of this House, and I have no desire to do him injury. I will tell the minister the name privately, and if I do him any injury by this statement I am man enough to stand up in the House and say it is not true. Is that fair ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think that in all fairness he should give the name.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am the best judge of what I should do in this matter. I give you the complaint and if the complaint is not correct I will be as glad to hear it as the hon. minister, but if it is correct the sooner a matter of that kind is investigated and stopped the better.


Henry Robert Emmerson: If the hon. gentleman will give the name an investigation will be held and the true facts elicited. I-wish to say that no station agent has ever beeD dismissed on the Intercolonial Railway because

Mr. COCHRANE, missed at all.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Mr. COCHRANE, tion to another.


Henry Robert Emmerson: He did not say dis-Removed.
That is from one sta-
It is charged that he was removed because he refused to detain
[DOT]>257

the train at the request of a member of parliament.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does my hon. friend grasp the difference between removal from one station to another and dismissal ?-That is what I meant, and that is what I said.


William Stevens Fielding: It seems to be a rumour which we can get no one to father, and that is a poor rumour.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the minister approve of naming a member.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not approve of a gentleman taking an idle rumour of that character and flinging it before parliament when he has no authority and no one to back it up.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have as good reason to state that as the hon. minister has to state what he said.	>


William Stevens Fielding: I have not stated anything.


Andrew B. Ingram: It would be more becoming the hon. gentleman not to say anything. What are we here for ?


William Mulock: That is a question.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is a question.


Edward Cochrane: To vote blindly.


Andrew B. Ingram: If there is any statement in the public press of this country in connection with the management of any government institution and that comes under the eye of a member, parliament is the place where that member is supposed to state it, and if it is not correct it is neither belittling nor unbecoming to a minister to give an answer. The minister has given that answer, I have accepted his answer as correct. He has asked me the name and I have said I am willing to give the name privately. What more do you want ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Am I to understand then he declines to give the name of the one member ?


Andrew B. Ingram: No you are not.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Only in private.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will give it in private.


Henry Robert Emmerson: And may I make it public.


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not care what you do then, you can father it. I will give it to the hon. gentleman, if he wishes to use it he can.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Will he give the name of the informant privately ?


Andrew B. Ingram: No, I shall not.


William Stevens Fielding: It has no father at all.


Henry Robert Emmerson: An idle rumour which has been set afloat which the hon. gentleman cannot connect with anybody.


Mr. LANCASTER.: Hon. gentlemen opposite, on the eve of a possible election, evidently do not want information as to the affairs of the country to be given to the people in answer to the questions which the people can only get through the opposition who are particularly charged with asking for information as to the administration of the country. I can quite understand that. They do not desire to have any clear announcement. The hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Lennox) has pointed out very calmly and earnestly in the discharge of his duty the importance of knowing whether the Canada Eastern, running from Fredericton to Chatham, is to be acquired by the government and made part of the Intercolonial. We are asked to pass an estimate of $7,000,000 for the maintenance of this railway,' and surely we are entitled to ask as to the acquisition of this Canada Eastern. The Minister of Railways perhaps does not know or care. He may be satisfied to get his estimates voted blindly, without giving any information on the subject whatever, and then use the estimate as he pleases-as he did with $4,000 which was voted for the acquisition of a station site. I understand that the Minister of Railways does not want to give us the information but we are obliged to tell him that we are entitled to it and that we must insist on having it.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The hon. gentleman is not justified in saying that I want to withhold the information. The question had reference to the policy of the government, and 1 said that the Prime Minister was the proper person to speak with regard to that. 1 do not feel that I would be at liberty to state what may be transpiring before council with respect to this or any other matter until it has reached a stage that it call be announced to parliament. The Prime Minister is the person to do that, or to delegate it especially to some of his colleagues. That is my position in the matter.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Did it occur to the Minister of Railway's that the Prime Minister should tell him not to try to get these estimates through until he was ready to give us information.


William Mulock: The only connection that question would have with the item under discussion is that should the government acquire this branch railway, it would involve further expenditure.
Mr. LANCASTER, That is not the only one.


William Mulock: If it should happen before the sessiqn closes that the government would ask parliament to acquire the Canada Eastern, the government would also have to ask parliament to vote money to maintain the Canada Eastern, and then would be the proper time to discuss
COMMON?
the matter, and the committee would have ample opportunity for discussion. No one desires to be discourteous to the opposition, but it is unreasonable to take the attitude that no estimate will be voted until the committee is informed as to the policy of the government regarding the Canada Eastern.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I did not say that.


William Mulock: That seems to me to be the attitude taken.


Haughton Lennox: That is not my attitude.
Sir WILLIAM MULOCIv. Is it reasonable for the opposition to dwell further upon the refusal of the Minister of Railways to anticipate the Prime Minister's announcement, should the government decide that an announcement may be made with regard to this matter ? If the opposition were curtailed in their rights in any way I would be the first to resent it; but they are not in the slightest degree prejudiced by postponing the discussion on a matter which is not before the House, and which may never occur ; it may and it may not occur.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 
William Mulock: If the opposition choose to say that they are not going to allow these estimates to pass until the policy of the government respecting the Canada Eastern is announced, we come to a deadlock, and it becomes a question of physical endurance. Is that a desirable state of affairs ? It is quite as competent for the government to enter into a battle of that kind as it is for the opposition. I have been many years here and I have taken part in such contests, but I must say that I fail to discover wherein the public interest was advanced by any such method. I am sure that all will agree that nothing is to be gained tonight by the opposition adhering to the view that no progress will be made.


Haughton Lennox: No one has suggested that.


William Mulock: I gathered that from the language of my hon. friend (Mr. Lancaster). Is it fair to create an impasse because the Minister of Railways will not make an announcement that he is not at liberty to make ? If any announcement is to be made it will be made by the head of the government, or by some person properly authorized. There is no person authorized to make such an announcement to-night; vet hon. gentlemen opposite, in anticipation of something that may or may not happen, make that a causS for obstructing the passage of these estimates. I do not think that is reasonable.


Robert Laird Borden: Weeks ago it was announced in the government press that this Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
railway is to be purchased and made a part of the Intercolonial Railway. The question was asked of the Minister of Railways an hour ago, who saw fit to treat it in a somewhat supercilious manner.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Oh, no.


Robert Laird Borden: We have our own opinion about tha t.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I did not intend to.


Robert Laird Borden: Then the hon. gentleman's manner is unfortunate The government could have done one of three things when the question was put ; they could say: No, it is not to be purchased ; or, yes, it is to be purchased ; or they could say that the matter is under consideration. Any of these three answers might be given without any detriment to any public interest, and any one of these answers would be absolutely satisfactory.


Henry Robert Emmerson: If that is the question I can answer it at once.


Haughton Lennox: That is practically the question.


Peter Macdonald: The question before the committee is a vote for the Prince Edward Island Railway, and a question entirely foreign to that is being discussed. - Information is asked of the minister with regard to another railway which is not now under discussion. That is out of order, and I would not allow the minister to answer the question if he proposed to do so.


Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEN-I move that the committee rise, and I ask whether or not there are any proposals under consideration, and whether or not the Canada Eastern Railway is to be purchased by the government 1 I may say that I do not agree with the ruling of the chairman, but it is not worth while wasting time over that.


Peter Macdonald: When a motion is made that the committee rise the discussion must be confined to giving reasons why the committee should rise.


Robert Laird Borden: The question that is to be considered on a motion that the committee rise is that which is introduced by the person who makes the motion


Peter Macdonald: Not at all.


John Graham Haggart: Surely you should let the hon. gentleman malae his statement without rising up in the middle to interrupt him.


Peter Macdonald: I want to put myself right. The hon. gentleman has taken exception to my ruling, and it is my business to sustain my ruling. A motion that the committee rise is equivalent to a motion for the adjournment of the House. If such a motion is made during the dis-

eussion of a question, then the discussion must be confined to the question. But if a motion of adjournment is made in the House between the Orders of the Day, you can introduce any question you wish to discuss. The discussion on this motion must be confined to the question before the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to say to the Minister of Railways, after this luminous exposition by the Chairman that I do not regard it as sufficient for him to say that the Prime Minister is not here. We lduow that he must necessarily be absent sometimes during the sittings of the House, and we are ready to make every reasonable allowance ; but that is no reason why an item should be passed in his absence. The proper course would be to postpone the consideration of the item until the Prime Minister finds it convenient to be present. If questions arise as to which he only can speak during the discussion of an item, then he should appoint some one to speak for him in his absence, or the consideration of the item should be postponed until he has an oportunity to be present. However, I understood the Minister of Railways to say that there is no difficulty in answering the question.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The question first put to me was a comprehensive question, on which I was to give all the transaction, all that has transpired. If the question is as put by my hon. friend, whether the purchase of the Canada Eastern is under the consideration of the government, I would at once say yes.


Robert Laird Borden: That was not just the way I put it. I said that a question had been put to which I thought there could be one of three proper answers which ought to be satisfactory to the opposition. Has the Canada Eastern been purchased or is it about to be purchased by the government ? I thought the government might very well say that it has been purchased, or that it is about to be purchased, or that it is not to *be acquired, or that the matter is under consideration. Either of these answers would be fair.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The matter is under consideration.


Robert Laird Borden: That is to say it has not been decided.


Haughton Lennox: As the minister says, the question, was somewhat comprehensive The first question I asked was : Has the railway been purchased ? I also asked : Is the government about to purchase it ? If so. we would like to have the particulars. The minister could have answered the question bv saying that they had not purchased it, but that the matter was under consideration. I understand the minister to say that they are about to purchase it and that the matter is under consideration.


John Dowsley Reid: Is that the answer of the hon. minister ?


William Mulock: Does it not follow that when the minister says the matter is under consideration, it may be that negotiations with the idea of purchase have been undertaken ; but you could not say that the matter had been completed, that a bargain had been agreed to, unless the details had been agreed upon. When you say it is under consideration, that is I think as liberal a statement as an opposition might reasonably expect.


Robert Laird Borden: I think we all understand the situation. The hon. Postmaster General is hedging a little for the benefit of the Minister of Railways and Canals.


John Dowsley Reid: The answer, I understand. is that the railway has actually been purchased, but the Minister of Railways and Canals does not choose to make that declaration.


John Graham Haggart: I suppose that on your ruling, if the Minister of Railways had stated that the railway had been purchased, the question could not be considered at all under the item ?


Peter Macdonald: No, he would not be at all in order in answering. It has nothing to do with the question under discussion.


John Graham Haggart: I wish to ask a few questions of the minister. According to his statement for the ten months ending the 30th of June last, there has been a deficit of about $65,005 iu receipts as compared with the expenditure and working expenses. Is there any anticipation that that deficit will cease ? The expenditure on capital account for the same period he states to be $346,000 ; yet the hon. minister retains $650,000 to his credit. Does he expect to use up during the unexpired two months the difference between those two amounts ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: About $300,000 of that would be expended during the two months.


John Graham Haggart: About $300,000 more than the $343.(500. That would be $643,000 on capital account ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: That would mean for the whole twelve months.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount contemplated to be expended on capital account, after the vote of this year, on the Prince Edward Island Railway ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: On the Murray Harbour branch ?


John Graham Haggart: Yes, and the other improvements. Does the vote of this year cover the whole expenditure contemplated on that branch ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: No, I gave the explanation and the information will be found in ' Hansard.' X move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again.


Samuel Barker: I understand that tfie lion, minister will have in the supplementary estimates an item for the completion df work on the double track between Windsor Junction and Halifax. Last year the Minister of Finance, as- acting Minister of Railways, took an appropriation of $118,000, telling us at the time that that would not complete the work, and I understand that the minister will have to ask a further amount in the supplementaries. I presume that is so.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It will be necessary to have a further vote.


Samuel Barker: My object in asking that question now is this. When that item comes up on the supplementary estimates, I desire that the minister shall be ready to furnish us with all particulars about the work-the plans, profiles, specifications and contracts entered into, if any, and the tenders and everything concerning the work, so that we may be able to discuss it without asking further adjournment.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Mr. Yielding, House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.

Friday, July 8, 1904.