1904-08-06

PRINTING OF PARLIAMENT.

Mr. CHARLES PARMELEE moved :: That the third report of the Joint Standing Committee on the Printing of Parliament be concurred in with the exception of the words * that from and after the present fiscal year the said superintendent, the first and second assistant superintendent and the clerk of distribution of printed documents of parliament, receive their respective annual increments, as provided by the Civil Service Act,' and with the following proviso added, viz.:-'Provided that the said junior second-class clerk shall continue to discharge the duties aB hitherto performed by him.'	*-


Mr. SPROULE.: Wo ought to have some explanation of that because I do not know what it means.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Will the bon. gentleman explain the motion ?


Charles Henry Parmelee: The amendments are intended to remove any ambiguity or doubt there may have been in the original report. While we did not change the status of the officers of the distribution office we adopted rather more euphonious names for them and we decided to civil them superintendent, first assistant superintendent and second assistant superintendent of distribution of printed documents of parliament. These officers are not directly under the Civil Service Act, but we decided to so increase their salaries os to place them on a parity with officers of the same rank in the various departments of the government while "the amendment I have moved is intended to remove any doubt on that score ; that is we do not place them actually under the Civil Service Act, but leave them as they now are under the control of the committee as officers directly responsible to the^ House. There was a messenger who performed many other services largely of a clerical character and we decided to make him a junior second-class clerk but with the understanding that he should go on performing the same duties that he is now [DOT]discharging. While that was the intention of the committee the report did not state it in so many words and I deemed it prosper to remove any doubt about it in the future by providing that this officer should go on and perform the same duties he is performing now, because, perhaps in two or three years, he might say : I am not a messenger, I am a junior second-class clerk, I do not propose to do messenger work and you must appoint another messenger. I think the amendment I have moved is in the direction of making the intention of the committee absolutely cleax-, keeping our control over the officers of the House and leaving us in such a position that we can deal with them according to their merits as necessity arises.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. As a member of the subcommittee that took the matter into consideration I may say that I am personally perfectly satisfied with the stexx that has been taken by the committee. It is a step in the right direction.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I have the honour to present to the House the report of the Commissioners of Internal Economy which the clerk will now read :
The commissioners of internal economy of the House of Commons, beg leave to present the following report :-
The commissioners recommend the concurrence by the House in the following resolution
adopted by the internal economy commissioners on the 28th April, 1904 : -
Resolved, that the commissioners recommend to the House : that the allowance made since the year 1889 to the clerk of the debates com-, mittee of the House of Commons (Mr. Panet), viz.:-$200 per annum by virtue of a recommendation of the said committee adopted by the House, June 22nd, 1889, be discontinued, and that the said sum of $200 be added directly to the salary of the said clerk (Mr. Panet) and be paid pursuant to estimates in the same manner as all other salaries to the officers of the House of Commons : provided, however, that the said clerk shall receive no other salary or remuneration for acting as such clerk or for the performance of any other duty that may be assigned to him.
(Sgd.) N. A. BELCOURT.
'	Chairman.


Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved :: That the report of the commissioners on internal economy be concurred in.
He said : The object of this report is to follow out the sound principle that officers shall be paid from one source only and not from several sources, as it leads to confusion. This makes no change in this gentleman's compensation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the payment he has been receiving up to the present only given from year to year with no implied right in the future to get the same, because, if so. tliis makes permanent what was only temporary ?


William Stevens Fielding: I do not know what the original design was, but it appears that this was a permanent payment every year and it is no longer a debatable question.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of the Interior) moved :: Resolved, that the regulations made by the Governor in Council under the authority of section 47 of the Dominion Lands Act, applicable or relating to the Yukon Territory, and set forth in the Orders in Council, of which the dates are, respectively, as follows, and of which copies have been laid before this House, are approved by this House, in accordance with the provisions of section 5 of chapter 34 of the statutes of 1902 :-
Order dated the 6th July, 1903, P.C. No. 1099 ; Order dated the 13th August, 1903, P.C. No. 1309 ; Order dated the 8th September, 1903, P.C. No. 983 ; Order dated the 17th November, 1903, P-C. No. 1909 ; Order dated the 26th November, 1903, P.C. No. 1952 ; Order dated the 28th November. 1903. P.C. No. 1953 ; Order dated the 28th November, 1903, P.C. No. 1954 : Order dated the 7th December, 1903, P.C. No. 1311 ; Order dated the 21st December, 1903, P.C. No. 2101 : Order dated the 30th January, 1904, P.C. No. 171 ; Order dated the 2nd February, 1904, P.C. No. 192.


Hr. HAGGART.: The usual form is to give notice that the resolution will be moved to-morrow.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Last year this same procedure was taken. This is in obedience to the regulation of the statute which requires that all Orders in Council in connection with the Yukon shall be placed on the table of the House.


John Graham Haggart: Has that been done ?


Clifford Sifton: They have been here for several weeks.


John Graham Haggart: What are they about ?


Clifford Sifton: The amendment to the Act of two years ago, requires that all amendments of any kind whatsoever passed by Order in Council relating to the mining regulations of the Yukon, should be in force only until the next session of parliament and should be laid upon the table of the House ; and approved of by resolution of both Houses, or otherwise they would cease to have effect at the end of the session. In pursuance of this, these orders were laid on the table of the House some weeks ago accompanied by a copy of the resolution which appears on the order paper. The Order in Council relate largely to matters of detail. The first is dated the 6th of July, 1903. The change which was made was simply to insert the words ' the rear boundary of ' in the third paragraph, section 12 of the regulations governing placer mining. That was done to remove ambiguity and tiie change was made on the recommendation of the Gold Commissioner. When the consolidated regulations prescribed the method in which a claim should be described, the persons who had claims taken under the former regulations were afraid that a strict construction of the new regulations might deprive them of a portion of their claims, and of course it was not the intention to interfere with vested rights. The next Order in Council dated the 13th of August, 1903, authorized the department to grant to Mr. Robert Henderson an entry for total frontage of 2,000 feet of available placer mining ground in the Yukon. Mr. Henderson was the original discoverer of gold in the Klondike. He was unfortunate in, losing the claims which he originally attempted to stake. There was a strong public feeling in the Yukon that some compensation should be given him and an application was made by Mr. Henderson, which was recommended by Mr. William Ogilvy, who was then commissioner, and supported by a petition from the merchants, bankers, and others, in the Yukon. An Or der in Council was passed giving this privilege to Hr. Henderson, which he has not availed himself of, apparently not having found any claim which he thinks it would pay to take up.


Mr. HENDERSON.: What did the minister say the proposition is ?


Clifford Sifton: 


Clifford Sifton: There is authority given in this Order in Council to give Mr. Henderson a claim of 2.000 frontage and of the usual depth anywhere he can find ground not occupied by anybody else. The next Order in Council is dated 8th of September, 1903. Under section 42 of the regulations governing placer mining, no officer or person employed by the government of Canada in any capacity whatever, or no officer or member of the militia force is able to hold or record a mining claim. This was so broad in its terms that it included the members of the Dawson Volunteer Rifle Company, and this Order in Council was passed to remove the prohibition from them.


John Graham Haggart: That is all right.
Mr. SIFTON- The next Order in Council is dated 17th of November, 1903. Section 2 of the regulations provide that a free miner may renew a certificate within thirty days on paying an additional fee of $5. On the 2nd of October, 1902 a man named E.A. Dixon got a free miner's certificate and on the 14th of January following the ' Mining Recorder ' at Whitehorse issued a renewal certificate and antedated it the 2nd of October, 1902. The attention of the mining recorder was called to the fact that the date was greater than ninety days and in reply he stated be overlooked the fact and hoped it would not entail any loss to Mr. Dixon who owned considerable mining claims. This Order in Council was passed to protect Mr. Dixon from the error of the mining recorder. The Order in Council passed dated 26th November, 1903, reduces the fee for free miners' certificates from 810 to $7.50. The Order in Council dated the 28th of November, 1903, relates to the question of the royalty. Section 52 of the quartz mining regulations provides that the patent shall reserve to the Crown forever, whatever royalty may be imposed on the sales of the products of all mines ; such royalty not to exceed five per cent. My hon. friends will understand that there is one set of regulations relating to placer mines and another relating to quartz mines. The quartz mining regulation provided that after a certain period the owner of the mine could secure a patent for the land, the patent reserving the Crown's right to a royalty. At the time this provision was made in the regulations a royalty of 10 per cent on the output of placer mining claims in the Yukon Territory, less an annual exemption, was collected. The royalty on gold shipped from the Yukon Territory, however, was reduced to 2J per cent by Order in Council dated the 21st of May, 1902. So that under the Order in Council relating to quartz mining there was the power to reserve the royalty of 5 per cent, but the general royalty on placer mines was only 2i per cent. Miners in the territory represented that a royalty of 5 per cent might be collected on the

gold taken from quartz Mining locations, and a further royalty of 24 per cent might be collected on the same gold when it was shipped from the territory, and in order that a uniform rate might be charged on all gold taken from mining claims, the Order in Council of the 28th of November, 1903, provided that patent for a mining location in the Yukon Territory shall reserve to the Crown for ever the same royalty upon the products of the location as is provided or which may hereafter be provided in the case of placer mining claims, and in Manitoba and . the Northwest Territories the patent for the mining location shall reserve to the Crown for ever a royalty not exceeding 2J per cent. It will be seen that the purport of this Order in Council was simply to harmonize the provisions respecting royalty between placer mines and quartz mines, making them the same amount, 24 per cent.
The Order in Council dated 28th November. 1903, Privy Council, No. 1954. Certain persons obtained entry for placer mining claims situated on Lindow Creek, a tributary of Bear Creek, within the limits of the hydraulic mining location situated on the Klondike river in the Yukon Territory after the lease had been issued, but before it had been received at Dawson. The question arose as to whether or not these claims should be renewed, and until that question arose, free miners were not permitted to perform on the claims the amount of work required by the regulations to entitle them to renewal of entry. That is to say, there being a dispute as to their right to enter on' these claims, the placer miners could not go on the claims and do the work they were required to do. The Order in Council dated the 28th of November. 1903, authorized the Minister of the Interior to grant renewal of entry for the claims in question without requiring payment to be made in lieu of representation work for the portion of the year during which the claim holders were stopped in their operations owing to the conflict with the hydraulic mining leaseholder. That is to say, they were stopped from doing the work by reason of the fact that the matter was in litigation, otherwise, they would have done it. This work is practically waived. They were prevented from going on, and we therefore did not fine them or compel them to pay the commutation fee.
Order in Council dated the 7th of December, 1902. Privy Council, No. 1311. is precisely the same as the last one, except that the claims were situated in a different mining leasehold.
Order in Council dated the 21st of December, 1903. Privy Council. No. 2011. The gold commissioner having reported in favour of granting compensation to certain persons who had sustained losses by reason of a
mistake made by an official, the lower half of placer mining claim No. 93 was granted by the gold commissioner to these people, and this Order in Council relieves them from the necessity of doing representation .work on the claim. At the time the claim was granted, it was not the intention that they should do representation work, and this Order in Council carries out the original intention which was not apparently clearly expressed in the first order.
The Order in Council dated 30th of January, 1904, Privy Council, No. 171, provides that the commissioner of the Yukon Territory may withdraw from mining entry, under the regulations in that behalf, any vacant ground required as a reservoir site or for any other purpose in connection with the storage of water, but only such ground as has been thoroughly prospected and lias been found to be worthless for placer mining purposes.
The Order in Council dated the 2nd of February, 1904, Privy Council, No. 192. rescinds the regulations relating to hydraulic mining leases. These regulations had been in force for some years, but having been found to be in some respects unsatisfactory, they have been rescinded pending general consideration of the subject.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. GEORGES BALL.: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called. I [DOT] desire to draw the attention of the government to the fact that a few months ago the people of St. Perpetue, in the county of Nieolet, addressed a petition to the government asking for a depot, or at least an accommodation car, to be placed at the station there, for the use of the public as a waiting-room. I saw the hon. minister a few days ago, and he informed me that the matter was in the hands of Mr- Pott-inger, the manager of the Intercolonial Railway, and that the application of the people [DOT]would very soon be granted. I was very much surprised yesterday, in passing the place, to observe that not even a passenger car has been provided for the accommodation of the people, but only a box car, which is hardly suitable even for a freight shed. I am sure that the hon. minister is not aware of this, or he would give orders to have it changed. St. Perpetue is a pretty important place, but it is not provided with either a telegraph or a telephone, and the people, not knowing whether the trains are on time or not, often have to wait, and there is no accommodation for them at all. I therefore hope that the hon. minister will see that accommodation is provided without delay.



CANADIAN ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTS.

Mr. SAMUEL BARKER.: Before tlie Orders of the Day are called, I wish to call attention to some correspondence in the Montreal ' Star ' of yesterday. The correspondence relates to a despatch cabled by the Canadian Associated Press, which purported to give remarks made by Mr. Timothy Healy, M.P., in the imperial House of Commons, regarding what is called the Dundonald incident. The despatch referred to is as follows :
Mr. Healy said he believed that Lord Dun-donald had attacked the government of Canada because it was French Catholic. It was very useful to have French Catholics on the side of the British empire during the Boer war ; but1 now that the war was over, an officer of the imperial army made partisan statements outraging the feelings of the majority of the people of Canada. He would like to know why Lord Dundonald has been permitted to remain while his speech was rankling in the French hearts.
No one can doubt that that language is of a most inflammatory nature and calculated to create racial trouble in this country. No one can doubt that if the statements made here were concocted by the Associated Press, they .must have been designed with a purpose to cause racial trouble and injure one of the political parties in this country. The London ' Times ' gave its version of the same speech in these words :
The government has come forward and announced that they had recalled the officer whose conduct had been complained of ; but Lord Dundonald while he remained on Canadian soil was an imperial officer, and for six weeks the government allowed him to remain after he had outraged the feelings of the majority of the people.
You will observe that the reference there is to the people of Canada at large and there is not the slightest allusion or reference to any particular race, the French race or any other. Mr. Healy was communicated with by the correspondent of the Montreal ' Star.' and he wrote to the correspondent as follows :
I have received several abusive letters from Canada and a visit from the gentleman who sent on there my alleged speech in reference to my supposed utterances, and I am a little surprised at further inquiry by another journalist.
It appears therefore that the representative of the Associated Press has been in communication with Mr. Healy and of course has had the opportunity to correct this despatch if he desired to do so. He also had access to the official reports of the House of Commons and could have corrected his despatch by that means if be had chosen to do so. What does Mr. Healy go on to say ?
I simply did not use the words which were cabled at such needless expense to Canada.


Georges Ball: I did say what the ' Times ' printed, and a little more, which would even further have modified the sense.
The ' Star ' correspondent goes on to add :
The authorized and official account of the parliamentary debates agrees exactly with the London * Times ' report.
It is therefore clear that the expressions as to the French and French Catholics were concocted.
Without occupying the time of the House longer, I desire to say that I cannot imagine a more wicked attempt to misrepresent the utterances of a public man on a subject occupying the attention of Canada than this cable despatch referring to the French element in this country. If any language could be used more calculated to cause racial strife, I do not know where to find it; and I can come to no other conclusion than that the gentlemen connected with this Canadian Associated Press, subsidized as it is by the people of Canada to the extent of 815,000 a year, paid through the Finance Minister, are deliberately misrepresenting for party purposes news which should be sent without reference to party or any other consideration than the strict truth. We know that the reason for giving this $15,000 a year subsidy was that we were being furnished by cable with news doctored and coloured in the interests of our neighbours across the line, and we resented that and were willing to pay $15,000 a year to get the truth. But we seem to be worse served than before. This Associated Press appears to have become a mere party tool to be used for party purposes, and I think I am not improperly taking up the time of tlie House in calling attention to that fact. I am quite sure that if this despatch bad _ been a reflection on the government of the day or the political party represented by this government, it would not have been necessary for anybody in this House to call attention to it. The hon. the Finance Minister would have intervened and told the people connected with the Canadian Associated Press that if they did not conduct themselves in a proper manner their subsidy would be stopped.


William Stevens Fielding: 1 bad not the good fortune to hear the flrst portion of the hon. member's remarks, but I understand their general tenor was to question the fairness and impartiality of the Associated Press despatches! Well, the government have absolutely nothing to do with this business beyond the fact that we have made a grant to a Canadian newspaper organization to assist it in what was supposed to be a very worthy purpose. We make grants to various societies and organizations in Canada over which we have no control or management; and if they should cease serving a good purpose, we should cease making the grants. No member of the gov-

eminent has the slightest part in connection with these despatches or the slightest control over them. We are precisely, in that respect, in the same position as my hon. friend. I know that sometimes complaints are made that the material sent over is not of the most substantial character. As an old journalist, I can make some allowance for that. I know that when it is a man's duty to send a daily despatch, he cannot always find news of surpassing importance ; and in his anxiety to send news, he may be tempted to send what in the minds of some readers may seem light, frivolous and unimportant. I have heard some criticisms on news sent over which to many of us might seem uninteresting. But all classes make up the world, and there are many newspaper* readers who may receive with more interest flimsy matters than the more substantial matters which would interest us as members of parliament.	-
As regards the question of impartiality, all I know is that the principal oflicer who prepares these despatches is a gentleman who is known to be a Conservative, and whatever interest he may take in politics in Canada would naturally be on the Conservative side. He is a brother of the proprietor of a Conservative newspaper in Canada, Mr. J. Ross Robertson, of th'e Toronto ' Telegram,' a former member of this House on the Conservative side. I met Mr. Robertson in England some years ago and found him a gentleman of good standing in the newspaper profession. I have no reason to doubt that he is doing his duty faithfully and impartially. Sometimes things appear in these despatches of which hon. gentlemen on the other side will disapprove, and sometimes things appear which we on this side think give too much prominence to views antagonistic to those of the Liberal party. If he seems to lean to one side or other, he is simply presenting the view that comes to him, trying to convey the views expressed by some public man or some newspaper. In the condensation of a speech or newspaper article there is always a danger of producing a result which one party or the other will think is biased. Therefore, I would not assume that the gentlemen engaged in this work have any other desire than to do that which is best, for the service in which they are engaged. Making allowance for some of the news which may not please everybody, I am inclined to think that the service has been a good one for Canada. It has been a good one in this respect at least, that we certainly receive more information than formerly of what is going on in Canadian circles in England, and of the indications of interest taken by the British press and the British public men in Canadian affairs. If an English public man makes a speech or writes a letter touching Canadian affairs it is sent out to us. Sometimes, we are apt to
think that these things are hardly worth sending out. But certainly we get more information concerning Canadian affairs in England than we formerly did. In this way I think the service is a useful one. However, we are no more concerned in the matter than hon. gentlemen opposite are.
I would remind them that this service is directed by an organization of newspaper men in Canada, not of one side alone but of both sides, who look at the service from the point of view of journalism, the collection and dissemination of news. As I say, both parties are represented in the association. Both parties were represented in the deputation who came to the government and asked co-operation and assistance in establishing this service. If the-service is open to criticism, I think we should criticise it and endeavour to have it made better. But I would not accept hastily the conclusion that the gentlemen who prepare the news are partisans, least of all that they are partisans against hon. gentlemen opposite, or are trying to assist our side.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: I have watched with interest to see what explanation the hon. minister (Mr. Fielding) would give of the exposure of absolute misstatements with regard to the speech of Mr. Healy. And he offers no explanation at all.


William Stevens Fielding: I did not hear that part.


Samuel Hughes: Mr. Healy himself repudiates it. Now, I have been giving a little attention to the manner in which this information-so-called information-is collected in the old land and how these reports from time to time are prepared. The reports have shown so much bias that even people in the rural districts of Canada are led to remark that the English correspondents are all loaded up the wrong way. I find that, while what the Finance Minister says is true, and these two gentlemen who send out the news to this country are supposed to be employed by an association-I do not know who compose that association -yet the manner in which they gather their news is, to say the least, equivocal. Now, as to Mr. Robertson being a Conservative, it is true that he is the brother of Mr. John Ross Robertson who has been an independent with Conservative leanings and who occupied a seat on this side of the House and criticised the government very severely. But any one who reads the columns of the Toronto 'Telegram' wi.'l see that if there is an independent journal in Canada its name is the Toronto ' Telegram.' It criticises both sides fearlessly. But the brother of Mr. John Ross Robertson was always a Liberal and is a Liberal to-day. Mr. Robertson's other brother in Toronto is one of the prominent Liberals of that city. Thus, so far as politics are concerned the

burden of evidence is that these press representatives would be inclined to favour the Liberals. The minister says that these gentlemen send to Canada what English public men who make speeches or write letters say concerning Canada. Let me point out that they do more. Through the agencies of the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of the Interior, statements are communicated by the officers of the government to the English country press favourable to the government. This puffery bureau that was in existence here is now, I believe, in existence in England, *Scotland, Wales and Ireland. And these correspondents, possibly without design, possibly without collusion with the officers of the government, pick up their little notes, editorial articles and other items of various kinds that appear in' the English country press, which, of course are laudatory of the gentlemen occupying the Treasury benches in Canada, and cable them out at the expense of the people of Canada to our press here. That is the explanation that is furnished me and it is the best explanation, I believe, that can be offered. But that explanation is not satisfactory in any sense of the term to hon. gentlemen on this side of the House. Now this will help to explain the use of the word ' foreigner ' at Henley which has been so much discussed. On that subject I have these data : The expression ' foreigner ' was used by a Canadian in the service of the Canadian government speaking to this gentleman who cabled it out to Canada. It was used by this officer of the Canadian government and by no other man. And, on the strength of that expression the cable comes out to this country giving the impression that the expression ' the foreigner wins ' greeted the victory of Scholes all along the line. The expression was used by a paid servant of the Department of the Interior to this gentleman who was the paid representative of the Canadian Associated Press, and the impression was given to the people of this country that the crowds on the banks of the river Thames received the great victory of Scholes with the cry ' the foreigner wins.'


Mr. ALEX. JOHNSTON.: Would my hon. friend (Mr. Sam. Hughes) give the House an explanation


Samuel Hughes: The hon. gentleman's hon. friend is standing here and speaking on his responsibility as a member of this House, and he is not called -upon, in answer to every back-bench member on the other side, to give names in support of his statement.


Alexander Johnston: Perhaps my hon. friend will permit me to ask him a question ?
Mr. iSAM. HUGHES. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Alex. Johnston) asks it as a privi-Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
lege, I will allow it, but if he demands it as a right, I will not allow it.


Alexander Johnston: I do not demand it as a right; I ask the hon. gentleman's permission to ask him a question.


Samuel Hughes: Granted.


Alexander Johnston: I would ask the hon. gentleman if he does not think it only fair, in connection with the observations he is making, to give the information cabled to this country by Mr. Robertson, explaining the incident to which he refers 1 No doubt he has that at hand.


Mr.   SAM@: HUGHEiS. I do not know what the hon. gentleman means.


Alexander Johnston: I thought not.


Mr.   SAM@: HUGHEiS. Does he mean the cable despatch ?


Alexander Johnston: Yes,


Samuel Hughes: Why, that appeared in all the newspapers in this country, representing that Scholes' victory was received with the cry ' the foreigner wins.' I understood that the hon. gentleman asked my authority for my statement. And I tell him that I am not to be called upon by every back-bench member on the other side' to give him authority for what I say. I speak here on my responsibility as a member of this House, and my word stands in this country where the hon. gentleman's affidavit would not be taken. And back of it stand the facts of the case, which are better than affidavits. Now, let me point out the facts in another case. On the evening when a discussion took place in the House of Commons in England, which has been referred to in these cable despatches, the press agent was in close company with the hon. Solicitor General (Mr. Lemieux). He also Interviewed the Chief Justice, or one of the justices of the Supreme Court-I do not know his position ; it amounts to veryl ittlte anyway. And that interview also was cabled over to this country. It is said that this was only a conversation, much as this interview at Rimouski the other day, I suppose, was intended as a ' conversation.' Uet me say to the right hon. the Prime Minister that if he Is going to preserve the integrity of the bench of this country and preserve for it that respect which, I believe, he, in common with the most of the people of this country, would like to see it have, he will have to read a lesson to the judges of this country to mind their business and keep out of politics.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Let me remind the hon. gentleman that there is absolutely no question before the chair. I think that my hon. friend is clearly out of order.


Samuel Hughes: Then I shall conclude with a motion if you wish that, Mr. Speaker. We find these judges giving in-

terviews to the press in England which are not true, we And this gentleman giving an interview as Rimouski which is absolutely untrue in fact, and we find reports cabled out here referring to the speech made by Mr. Healy, which Mr. Healy totally repudiates and which he says is not true. I have read the English press and I fail to find one word that justifies the cablegram sent here in reference to his speech. From the fact that we have absolute evidence that the correspondent of the Canadian Associated Press was in company with Mr. Lemieux, the Solicitor General, about that time all 1 can say is that it looks very much as if tne inspiration had been received from a member of this government, anid not from a speech in the House of Commons in England.



THE ALIEN LABOUR ACT.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Sir WILLIAM MULOCK (Postmaster General) moved third reading of Bill (No. 162) to consolidate and amend the Acts respecting Alien Labour.
Mr. NAT. BOYD.: I brought to the attention of the House yesterday the question of the farm labourers in Manitoba, and the discussion which ensued proved clearly that any man in Manitoba or the Northwest Territories bringing a farm labourer across the line from the United States would be subject to the penalties of this Bill. I understand that there are a great many farmers along the line of Manitoba and the Territories who frequently make use of labour from the United States at harvest time, and while I might be prepared to agree with the minister that it is not probable that the provisions of the Act might be resorted to, yet any evil-disposed person might set the machinery of the Act in motion to the detriment of some person towards whom he might have some ill-will. For that reason 1 think that some provision should be made to protect the farmers of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories in the approaching great harvest. We expect to require an enormous amount of help, in order to take care of that crop, and with that view I propose to move :
That all the words in the main motion after the word ' that ' be struck out and the following be substituted therefor :-
That the Bill be not now read a third time, but be referred back to committee for the purpose of inserting the following clause :-
That nothing in this Bill or in the Alien Labour law shall prevent the farmers of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories from importing all the farm labour that may be necessary in order to harvest the crops in that portion of the country.


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: There is nothing in the Bill in any way altering the law as it stands to-day, and as it has stood on the statute-books for many years, applicable to the very case my hon. friend has in mind.
The provision of the Act respecting the importation of alien labour under contract have now been in force for seven years. There have been good crops during that time in the Northwest and I hope that these good crops will continue. They have required to import labour from all parts to harvest their crops. There has not been a case yet of any attempt being made to invoke the provisions of this Act In consequence of any alleged or supposed violation of it. When we consider that this Act has been in force for many years and that it is only where there has been some utter disregard of local interests to the injury of numbers of our local people, that there has been any litigation, we may fairly assume that when any large districts such as the territories may need farm labour for the temporary purpose of gathering the crops, that no action such as my hon. friend desires to have taken to prevent the enforcement of the. provisions of the Alien Labour Act in reference to the importation of labour for this purpose need be taken.


Mr. FOWLER.: Would it not be possible as the law stands now for a farmer bringing in labour from the United States to he subjected to penalties ?


William Mulock: This resolution in one part says that nothing in this Bill shall have a certain effect. There is nothing in this Bill that can have such an effect. Section 1 of the Act of 1897 which was amended by a subsequent Act is the only portion of any Act which bears on the question under consideration. There is nothing in this Bill amending section 1, and therefore the law is being left to-day as it has been for seven years. There is nothing whatever, therefore, in the Bill to warrant the first part of the proposition contained in this amendment.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman has not yet answered the question I asked.


William Mulock: The hon. gentleman is learned in the law and is quite as competent to interpret the law in this respect as any hon. gentleman in this House. What I say is that the mover of this amendment is suggesting that this Bill has some intent which it has not. There is another view which I would present for consideration. Would it be proper legislation to have exceptions in favour of one class only ? All class legislation is very undesirable. Here is a general, law and if the hon. gentleman desires to amend the general law, well and good. It has been on the statute-book for seven years, anid the hon. gentleman has had the opportunity at any time during these seven years of moving such an amendment, inviting the attention of the country to it, but he has not seen fit to do so. Even last night he begged that the Bill should not he allowed to come into force this year, yet to-

day he is asking that the measure shall be kept alive and be made use of to graft upon it some new legislation. I do not think it would be proper to introduce this class legislation.


Mr. BRODER.: Is this not class legislation 1


William Mulock: No, it applies to the whole industrial world in Canada. I think in the first place there is no practical necessity for this amendment. I do not think that any farmers of the west will ever be troubled by the provisions of this law should they do what my hon. friend says it would be their interest to do. No doubt there have been numerous technical violations of this law in the past, and yet no penalties were enforced, no complaints were made. The Act was never resorted to and there is no reason to assume that it will be resorted to in the future, where public interest warrants the importation of that class of work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The Bill is called 'An Act to consolidate and amend the Acts respecting Alien Labour.' The hon. gentleman says it is undesirable to apply legislation to a single class. From the provisions of this Bill, which is founded upon the American law, you except one class, those possessed of technical knowledge, so that it is not general in its application. It is just as undesirable to exclude one class as to legislate for one class. Therefore, the Bill is not universal in its application. The hon. Minister of Labour says that the law in regard to the importation of labour is practically the old law, that there is substantially no change. Well, if there is substantially no change, why under heaven do we want a Bill at all to amend the Labour Act, because it is to amend the Labour Act, and if there is no change made in the Labour Act which will be of any advantage to the Canadian people, why cumber the statutes with it or waste the time of parliament in passing it. But it is because of the uncertainty which has been created in the minds of the people as to whether it may interfere with any class in carrying on their operations that my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) is afraid that it may be invoked against the people in the west who have to import labour to help them to do their work during the harvesting season. It is to make sure that there will not be any possibility of interference with the operations of the farmers in the west that my hon. friend has moved this amendment.
Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAUR1ER (Prime Minister). Mr. Speaker, I am a little surprised, to use a very mild expression, at the amendment of my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) and at the support it receives from his friends around him. Yesterday we had a very interesting discussion and the opposition claimed the merit of having forced upon the government the intro-Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
duction of an alien labour law similar to the law which was enforced against us by the United States. The hon. member for South Leeds (Mr. Taylor), amid the applause of his friends, and nobody contradicted him, made the statement that for six or seven years before the advent of the present administration, he had introduced this legislation. He wanted, he said, to educate the public to a realization of the sufferings which were inflicted on Canadians by the enforcement of the American law, and I must say that my hon. friend made good his case at least. It was in the year 1897 that Canadians were being deported at Buffalo, Detroit and other places. Men who left the Canadian side of the line to work in the United States were sent back to Canada. Then we introduced this present law. It has been enforced for seven years. What I wish to emphasize is, as has been stated by my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Sir William Muloek), that no complaint has ever been made that the law interfered with obtaining the supply of labour that was required to handle the crop of the west. The purpose of my hon. friend's amendment is to exempt the farmers of Manitoba from the operation of the law. If the amendment was adopted what would take place _? A more misehevous, a more hurtful or a more ill-considered amendment was never introduced. What would take place if the amendment were to be adopted ? It is well known that the crop matures in Dakota and to the south of us earlier than does our own crop. The Canadians leave their own side of the line to work in Dakota and other neighbouring states. When our crop matures men from Dakota, and the neighbouring states come and work in our country. If this proposed amendment were adopted you would have men going to work in Dakota deported from the United States, and the amendment would place us in such a position that we would have no possible means of protecting them. If you have this law on the statute-book on both sides of the line there will be no trouble. There are no deportations from Buffalo and Detroit now. A certain gentleman, Mr. Du Barry, was in the habit of sending Canadians from Buffalo back to Toronto and there were people in Detroit sending Canadians back to Windsor. Now that the law is the same on both sides, we do not hear very much about deportations : the rights of Canadians are respected. but remove that law and you will have the same thing as you had a few years ago.
Mr. SPRO Li LE. Have you ever heard of a Canadian from Manitoba going to work in the harvest in Dakota ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, I have.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I never have.


Mr. WALTER SCOTT (West Assiniboia).: Mr. Speaker, I made a few remarks on this si bject last evening directed entirely against

the suggestion made by the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy), who advocated the application of our Alien Labour law to all the world. I find that I was under a misapprehension last evening. I understood when I spoke then that the present Bill did not propose to extend the application of the Canadian law to any country except the United States, which has an alien labour law and which sometimes is enforced against Canadians. I find that I was under a misapprehension and that the main clause of this Bill, section 8, is intended to apply to persons from any part of the world. I think, in fairness, I will have to state this morning that every remark I made last evening in regard to the suggestion of my hon. friend from Bothwell, 1 will now have to make in regard to the present proposition, that is to say to the Bill before the House. I wish to state that I am entirely opposed to the trend of this legislation. My hon. friend the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) has just stated that the suggested amendment of my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) is practically unnecessary. I say the same .thing is true in regard to the Bill. There is no practical necessity at this date for such a proposition. There are no idle men in Canada. If we had idle men in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, in the Canadian west or in British Columbia, there might be some reason for coming down and proposing such legislation. But, there are no idle men in any part of this country. The very contrary is the fact. There is a call for men all over the province of Ontario ; farmers in ail parts of Ontario claim that they are not able to get a sufficient supply of labour. There is a call for men in the maritime provinces and there is a call for men in British Columbia to assist in developing the enormous mineral resources there, and as I said last evening, the only practical limitation there is to the material development of this country is the fact that we have not sufficient people to go on to the vacant lands which he unfilled in the Canadian west to such an enormous extent. With such conditions in Canada, why should we propose to adopt legislation which has not been adopted yi any part of the world except in the United States. If we had congested conditions such as they have in the countries of Europe in the United Kingdom, Belgium, France and Germany, there might be some justification for such a proposal, but in Canada the conditions are the very opposite. So far as the House is informed and so far as I am aware there is no country dn the world except the United States, which has adopted such legislation as is proposed here, or as we have had on our statute-book for the last seven years. There may be some reason for legislation of that kind being adopted in the United States, but the same conditions do not prevail in this country. There is pro-275
bably no necessity to go outside the borders of the United States for workmen of any class that may be required, but we are compelled to go outside of our own borders to get a sufficient numbex- of workmen. For several years past the excuse has been put forward by the big railway corporations in Canada which have held charters for building railways throughout the west, that they were unable to go on and build railways as the requirements of the country demanded, because of their inability to obtain a sufficient supply of labour. The Canadian Pacific Railway make that excuse and Mann and Mackenzie make that excuse. Mann and Mackenzie have told us that the main line of their road would already be in Edmonton, but for the difficulty which they had experienced in getting a sufficient supply of | labour to work on construction. We hear a good deal in this House about the intei'ests of labour, and I am somewhat concerned in that because I am a labourer and I am a union labourer. I am a member in good standing of a labour union in this country. I think I can speak in the interests of labour, and I say that it is not in the interest of any labouring man in this country to hamper or restrict or attempt to hamper or restrict any legitimate industry or enterprise in this country. I do not think that after my four years in this House, I will be suspected or accused by any person of speaking as an advocate of the manufacturers, who, I hear, are opposed to this legislation, or of the railway corporations who, I understand, are also in some measure opposed to this legislation.
I do not speak for them, but speaking as a labourer and in the intei'ests of labour in this country, I say that this kind of legislation is not in their interests nor in my interests as a labourer. It is not in the interests of labour to hamper or restrict the legitimate enterprise of any railway corporation, or of any manufacturing concern, but I speak more particularly for the great agricultural interests which the amendment proposed by my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) concerns. If there is any possibility of our Alien Labour law being used so as to cause the agriculturists in western Canada to hesitate before they invite persons from outside countries to work on their farms, then that legislation should not be adopted. There is a possibility,
I believe not alone on account of the legislation, but chiefly on account of the kind of talk we have indulged in in this parliament and throughout the country during recent months and, to some extent, throughout recent years ; there is a possibility of the agencies in the western states, which ar-interested in stopping the movement of people into Canada, being helped in their efforts. We are simply putting pretexts in the hands of these agencies which may make it possible for them to almost entirely



stop that immigration movement. The Minister of the Interior knows well that such agencies do exist. The railway corporations of the western states are becoming excited about the movement of their population to western Canada, and the Minister of the Interior knows they are taking steps to check that movement. We, by our senseless chatter about aliens and foreigners, are putting into the hands of these agencies the instruments *which they will undoubtedly use to check that movement of population. Hon. gentlemen may be surprised to hear that many people come from the western States to western Canada with extreme hesitancy. Many of them come to Canada with guns in their hip pockets, believing them necessary for their protection here. They are, however, only in the country a few days, and sometimes a few hours, when they find these are unnecessary and throw them away ; and after a few months' residence here they express themselves satisfied that the conditions in Canada are better than in the United States.


Mr. GALLIIIER.: Do they not bring in these weapons because they are accustomed to need them in the western states ?


Thomas Walter Scott: That is true, but very often they fear that these weapons are necessary for their protection in Canada. These immigrants do come to us with erroneous impressions, and what we are doing and what we are saying chiefly, is going to put into the hands of these agencies the material with which to check the movement of population from the western states into Canada.
Mr. JAiS. -OLA-NOY. It would be difficult to tell just what we should do to console the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott). He seems to forget that this Bill does not in any sense prevent labourers and workingmen from coming into Canada. The proposal is to exclude those who come in under contract, but not one man in a thousand comes into the Northwest Territories under contract, -and the fear of the hon. gentleman is entirely visionary. He tells us that they come into the west with guns and pistols, but probably that is because they read his speech here a few weeks ago, in which he declared it was necessary to increase the number of mounted police in order to put the people of the Northwest under surveillance. There is not a man in this House, who has not taken leave of his reason, who does not know that this Bill is solely -directed against persons coming in under contract and against undesirable immigrants. For my part, I am opposed to labour being brought into -Canada under contract. I think there has -been a laudable effort made by the government to exclude undesirable persons, but I am sorry to say they have not been -successful. Every man who is fit to be a citizen of Canada has the door wide open for him to enter, and I know of no more arrant nonsense than -such talk as we hear from the hon. gentleman (Mr. -Scott).


Thomas Walter Scott: 


Thomas Walter Scott: Does the hon. gentleman consider that a civil engineer is an undesirable person ?


Mr. CLANCY.: I do not ; but I do consider there are very desirable Canadian engineer-s able to fill the positions.


Mr. LENNOX.: And they have been discriminated against.


James Clancy: They have. Until we have exhausted the supply of talent in Canada- and nobody need be concerned about that- every engineer -from a foreign country should ibe excluded.
Mr. -SCOTT. Does the hon. gentleman know of any idle -Canadian civil engineers ?


William Mulock: Yes.
Mr. -CLANCY. Yes, I do.
-Sir WILLIAM MULO-CK. Scores of them.


James Clancy: I will give the hon. gentle man (Mr. Scott) numerous applications from young men -seeking employment -on this government work, but he has only to look at the report of Judge Winchester to convince him. I have not the honour of being able to speak for the labouring men as my hon. friend (Mr. Scott) has. I would not Venture to claim so much to myself as the hon. gentleman ; but I think the labouring men of Canada will pray to be spared from his advocacy and friendship. I have not the right to speak -for the labouring men as a labouring man myself, but I have the right to endeavour to secure to the labouring men of Canada a fair chance with other people in the battle of life.


Clifford Sifton: The question of dealing with alien labour is one upon which there are g,r(eat differences of opinion, and it is a question which presents the very greatest difficulty. We have had it before us >'n this parliament for a number of years, and have spent a good deal of time endeavouring to -solve the difficulty. I have not had the -advantage of being here during the last few days, but I believe that the present measure represents a fair and moderate conclusion arrived at fairly well in accordance with the general views of members of this House on both sides. As to the particular point which my hon. friend (Mr. Scott) has mentioned, it appears t>
me that there is no serious difficulty in the Act as it is now before us. So far as I am aware labourers have never been brought from the United States to Manitoba or the Northwest Territories under contract. They are generally brought into the territoties by what are known as labourers' excv.rsions. At certain periods of the yeaf the railway companies provide what are called labourers' excursions, with special facilities, -and at that period of the year the supply follows the

demand, and large numbers of people go to Manitoba and tlie Northwest Territories; and the supply of any substantial demand for labourers would have to be brought about in some such way. In regard to any such arrangement, this Act would have no application whatever. If there should be an isolated case in which some farmer had brought in a labourer under contract, and if some person were malicious enough to Institute a prosecution, you have the remedial provisions of the Bill, which would prevent the success of any such effort. You have the fact that the consent of a public functionary is required, and it would be quite impossible to conceive such public functionary giving permission for the institution of a prosecution of that kind. We know what this Act is intended to prevent. I think the House is pretty well agreed in regard to it, and a little consideration will show that there is no necessity for the provision which my hon. friend wishes to have inserted.


George William Fowler: What public functionary is it whose consent must be obtained ?


Clifford Sifton: The judge of the court in which the suit is brought ; the attorney general of the province, a judge of a superior court or a county court, a judge of the sessions of the peace, the recorder, police magistrate, stipendiary magistrate, or any functionary having the power of two justices of the pence.


George William Fowler: I understood from the Minister of Labour that that clause of the old Act was amended or repealed.


William Mulock: No, that law is in full force, and will not be affected by this Bill.


William Alfred Galliher: I rise just to refer to a statement inad^ by my hon. friend from West Assiniboia (Mr. Walter Scott) with regard to the necessity for more labour for the development of the mines in British Columbia. Speaking for the district which I represent, I am happy to say that the mines there are now in a much more wholesome condition than they were some time ago, thanks largely, so far as the silver-lead mines are concerned, to the bonus which this House saw fit to grant to them last year. There is also, I am glad to say, a happier condition existing between the employers and the miners. There is no disturbance, and no demand for any labour in connection with the development of the mines, at all events in the district which I represent.


George William Fowler: I have been listening for some time to hear from the ministers some good and sufficient reason why this amendment should not be accepted, but I have not yet heard any. The Minister of Labour stated that it would be class legisla-2751
tion, which was bad legislation. But this Alien Labour Bill, and previous Acts on the same subject, contain clauses which might be termed class legislation, because they exempt certain professions from the operation of the law. With regard to the difficulty pointed out by the premier, that labourers going from the Canadian Northwest to Dakota to work in the grain fields would be deported, whereas American labourers could come into Canada, the right hon. gentleman is misinformed if he supposes that any number of labourers havb gone, during the last ten years at least, from the Canadian Northwest to work in the fields of Dakota. So far as my information goes, there has not been at any time any surplus of labour in the Northwest to go anywhere else. The acreage of land under cultivation and the output have increased to such an extent that there has never been at any time in the last ten years sufficient labour to do the work there. That is a condition which we are all glad of. I do not mean to say that it is in any way attributable to the policy pursued by this government-not in the slightest, arid hon. gentlemen need not plume themselves on that.


William Mulock: It came in with them.


George William Fowler: Not at all. It came before they came in, and was a result of the splendid policy pursued by their predecessors-a policy which the hon. gentlemen dared not change, although they had said that they would. I congratulate the hon. gentlemen upon having had sufficient common sense to follow out the policy laid down by the great builders of this country, the statesmen of the Conservative party, instead of pursuing the disastrous policy which they themselves proposed when in opposition. I have failed to see any good reason why the government should oppose this amendment. There are in the Northwest exceptional conditions which perhaps do not exist in other parts of the country, and we should trim our legislation to suit [DOT]our own circumstances. I wish to enter my -protest against legislating along certain lines because the United States do so. We ought to legislate off our own bat irrespective entirely of what the United States does. I would not increase our tariff simply for the reason that any other country has a certain tariff. I would increase our tariff because it would suit the circumstances of this country to do so.


Mr. WM. ROSS (Victoria).: Is not that beside the question altogether ?


George William Fowler: Now our ancient and venerable friend from Victoria is waking up.


William Ross: Mr. Speaker, is not this beside the question altogether ?


George William Fowler: I am quite within the question. I am answering the point that we should not make an exception because there is danger of our people being charged in the United States.


Wilfrid Laurier: You had better move for the repeal of the Alien Labour law.


George William Fowler: Not necessarily. I say it would be great folly for us to cut off our nose to spite our face. If the farmers of the Northwest wish to bring in labourers, why not let them do so ? You will not interfere with those labourers by bringing in others because the others are not taking their place. You require alien labour laws where you are going to interfere with men already in the country and when there is not enough labour to go around. But this is an exceptional ease. As the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has pointed out, we are reaching out. in all directions to get labourers for the Northwest, and I must congratulate the hon. gentleman on the fearless and manly way in which he presented his views. I would like to see more of that independence and less partyism. The stand which the hon. gentleman took seemed to come with a shock to members on both sides. My hon. friend from Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) was so shocked that he had to get up and read the hon. member a lesson. However, I congratulate that hon. gentleman and wish there was more of that independence which animates him and the hon. member for' King's, N.B. (Mr. Fowler).
Amendment negatived on division.
'Mr. SPROULE. It seems to me a more appropriate title would be ' to amend the Acts respecting Labour and Immigration.'


William Mulock: I do not think that the title suggested would be as suitable as the one adopted. Every one of the clauses has to do with the subject of aliens.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

Wilfrid Laurier: I would like to move that item 34 of Public Bills and Orders respecting Mutual Reserve Life1 Insurance Company, be called.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr.  C. B.@: HEYD moved second reading of Bill (No. 161) respecting the Canadian Assessment-policy-holders in the Mutual Reserve Life Insurance Company. He said : I propose to be very brief and shall not make any reference to the record of this association in past years, but confine myself to the Bill before the House. I am aware that charges of a very serious character have been made against the company, whether Mr. ROSS (Victoria).
fairly or unfairly, but these were entirely apart fromjthis Bill. A very great deal of labour has been spent in its preparation. Some time ago Senator Kerr introduced in the Senate a Bill for the relief of the assessment-policy-holders in this company. That Bill was referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce and by that committee referred to a sub committee of five. This sub-committee availed itself of the assistance of the Insurance Department of the government, also of Mr. Brosseau, representative of the Canada Life Insurance Company, and Mr. Eldridge an official connected with the Mutual Reserve. After considering the matter in all its various aspects, this Bill is the result of the labours of that committee. After a few minor amendments, it was adopted by the Senate as the best that can be done under the circumstances. It is probably not as good a Bill as those who are members of the society would like to have ; but when we realize that this committee had only $25 of a surplus on each $1,000 to work on, you can readily understand that very much of a concesion could not be made. Circulars were sent out to the 3,600 policy-holders asking their opinion. Letters in reply were received from 785 in favour of the Bill, from 46 against it, and from 98 asking for further information. The rest. I assume, did not take enough interest in the question to vote either one way or the other.
Now, we must realize that this is the only opportunity that the assessment-policy-holders of this company will have of being benefited. If this Bill does not pass now, hundreds of them will back into the lapse class before another session comes round. During the past few years, $20,000,000 of insurance of the company has lapsed, because those holding the policies were not able to pay the rapidly increasing yearly assessments. There are still some 3,600 remaining who have kept themselves in good standing and who are waiting for this parliament to pass some Bill that will give them relief from the conditions under which they now exist. If they are forced to release their policies in this company owing to their inability to meet their yearly calls, many of them-probably hundreds of them-have arrived at an age when they are not good subjects for a new company to take, or, have contracted disease which would preclude them from passing a medical examination. This Bill takes in every man in good standing without an examination. Therefore, all that class that have got consumption, cancer, or other fatal disease undoubtedly will be benefited by the passing of this measure. Every individual that avails himself of one of the options provided in the Bill will get cheaper insurance than he can get from any other company in Canada. He will save from about $1.50 to $2 on each $1,000 of insurance. He will get,

in addition, his share of the reserve of $228,000, which is to be apportioned amongst the policy-holders, and, if he does not desire to continue a policy in this company he receives a paid-up policy for his share of that reserve. And, if he does not wish to avail himself of either of these options but to continue as an assessment-policy-holder he can stand on the conditions on which he entered the institution. In every clause of this Bill the interests of the assessment-policy-holders are fully protected. We can rely upon the work of Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. Bradshaw to look after the interests of the policy-holders in Canada. They tell us that this is the best thing that can be done. And, notwithstanding what the past history of the company may have been, notwithstanding the fact that they have been charged with every crime possible-assuming these things to be true-it does not affect this question. It is up to us now either to adopt or reject this measure. Rejection means that hundreds will be added to the class that have allowed their policies to lapse. If we accept this measure we endorse the action of the Senate in having passed it, and the work of our own Insurance Department in connection with it. If later on, as we proceed with the Bill, its clauses require further consideration, I have familarized myself with the various details and hope to be able to explain them to the satisfaction of the House. One of the strongest arguments made against the Bill by those who have not studied it carefully is that in some way the Mutual Reserve Association is trying to get possession of the $228,000 of reserve that is in the possession of the government. But it is practically impossible for them to do so, because, by adopting either of these alternative propositions each individual policy-holder at once gets his share of that reserve in the paid-up insurance, and if he accepts another alternative proposition he at once gets the annual reduction in his premium rate which will necessitate the government holding it as a reserve against his policy. And if he does not accept any proposition he gets a paid-up policy for his share. Consequently the whole of the reserve is absorbed. It is in the hands of the government and it will not be paid out except in conformity with this Act. I have no interest in the matter, not being insured in the company ; but I am satisfied that this is the best that can be. done for the policy-holders. I believe that they will be thankful if you permit this Bill to pass. And I hope that our friends here who have grievances against the company, who believe that the company has been mismanaged, extravagantly managed, dishonestly managed, will not present that grievance here to-day. For it has no bearing on this question. This company is in good standing in New York state whence it gets its charter ; it is in good standing
in the Dominion of Canada to-day. It is carrying on business, it has put up its reserve with the government, and the government is in a position to compel it to carry out its obligation to its policy-holders. So, in considering this Bill, we can afford to forget what has taken place in the past and to confine ourselves, as I think we ought to do, to the interest of the assessment-policy-holders of the company the majority of whom desire to have this Bill passed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read a second time and House went into committee thereon.
John Graham Haggart: I suppose the government looked into this Bill before putting it on the government orders. I must say that I have not studied it, have not even - had an opportunity to read it, and know nothing about it. But, of course, the government know that the course proposed in this case is unusual. This is a Bill such as, In the ordinary course of events, would be referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce where it could be thoroughly inquired into. I gather from the statement of the hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Heyd) that those insured in this mutual insurance company, find their numbers decreasing and the calls upon those remaining growing larger, and the object is to take insurance in some other form and also to get the benefit of some fund or deposit that is held for the company by the government.


William Stevens Fielding: The account given of the Bill by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hag-gart) is hardly correct. The explanation given by the hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Heyd) covers the ground. This is not a government Bill. But the department of Insurance has examined it, as they do all insurance Bills, and the superintendent of insurance is satisfied that it is unobjectionable. It is making the best of a bad business. I think the policy-holders of the company are satisfied that it is for the best. So far as the superintendent has looked into the matter he is sure that it is right, and he has assisted the Senate committee in drafting the Bill. The House may accept the assurance that no public interest is against the Bill.


Mr. HEYD.: The Insurance Department not only approved of this Bill but were parties to the making of it.


William Stevens Fielding: That is true in this sense, that it is a private Bill. We are not concerned in the matter except by way of supervision. The Bill was before the committee of the Senate and they asked the superintendent of insurance to assist them and he did so. The Bill still remained the Bill of the company. It is not a government Bill, but the government desired to

afford the promoters an opportunity to present it to the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have several of the policy-holders in my district, and as 1 have Lad many communications from them. I looked into the Bill very carefully. The concern in which they insured was originally named the Provincial Provident Institution, which sold out its rights to this company. Of course their policies were" on the ordinary assessment plan. An idea of how these risks were taken can be gathered from a letter that I have in my possession. A gentleman in my part of the country took out a policy of $5,000 upon an agreement that he was to pay $9.95 every two months, the understanding being that not more than ten payments were to be called for in any one year.
After this company had become unable to keep up their contract and it was passed over to the present company, the rates went up from time to time until last year this man was paying instead of $9,95 every two months, $76.75 every two months, with $18.65 monthly for an annuity. Part of the agreement of this party was that at a certain age he was to draw an annuity of $500 per annum during the remainder of his life and to meet that he was obliged to pay lately $76.75 every two months, with $18.65 for his annuity, which would make $575 per year and this was going up all the time. According to the recent arrangement they have declared that they can only pay him an annuity of $334.17 even although he keeps this payment up. As there is $228,000 in the hands of the government, as a guarantee for the policy-holders who have their insurance in this company and as this Bill is to enable the policy-holders upon a new basis to convert their assessment policies into what would be regarded as straight line life policies for what they are worth and to keep them up in that way in the future-because otherwise, they would be obliged to relinquish them entirely -I think the Bill is a good one.


Mr. LOGAN.: Is there anything in the Bill to prejudice the rights of any creditors of the company ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: No.
At one o'clock, House took recess.
Committee resumed at three o'clock.


David Henderson: Has the preamble been adopted ?


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: No, the preamble will be the last to be adopted.


David Henderson: Well then if I wish to speak on the Bill generally I will speak on the preamble, I suppose ? I will reserve my remarks until we get to the preamble.


William Stevens Fielding: 


George William Fowler: I want to get a little information in respect to this Bill. I want to offer no factious opposition but a gentleman who is a prominent member of the other chamber and also a policy-holder in this company has put some papers in my hand in reference to this Bill and I would like to get some information from the promoter. This gentleman says :
As the Bill stands now, it is simply to enable the wreckers in New York, who are not the policy-holders to withdraw from here the amount held by the government for the protection of the assessed policy-holders, some $236,000 in round numbers, and leave in its stead, only $40,000, so that what little we had here to hold on to, will be gone. Reference to sections 32 and 33 of the Insurance Act, will prove it. If to-morrow, they elect to do no more business here, which they won't do, for they cannot get any, they can withdraw all the deposit, as I have said, leaving only $40,000. In other words, they are attempting to force the old policy-holders to go into this new scheme of theirs and to have the breach of contract legalized by the Act. They tried this without the Act, and the policy-holders declined to go out of the fat into the fire. They will by Act of parliament be allowed to load down the policies or increase the premiums. To any sane man, who can reinsure, this will not be acceptable, as he can get into another company on the same terms. To the wretched individual who cannot reinsure on account of ill-health or old age, it means, that he must submit to the company reducing his policy from say $10,000 to $1,000, $2,000 or $3,000, as they may see fit ; or put such a premium as they cannot pay. The point to be guarded is that they must not be permitted to withdraw the deposit which they have at Ottawa, which is applicable to the assessment policy-holders, and must be left there intact for the assessments solely, and not for the1 benefit of the new company which they propose to work out ; and there must be conditions to it, as in Mr. McMullen's proposed motion. The Bill should be amended to include this motion ; next, they must not be allowed to load up or create any duty against the policy-holders, which will diminish the amount they have insured for.
I would like the promoter to answer these points.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: There are provisions for options in this Bill which will enable the holder of a policy to take either the one or the other. In paragraph I), line 25, of section 3 you will find this provision :
Each such policy-holder, on exercising either of said options, shall be entitled to a dividend of his proportionate share of the sum of one hundred and fifty-two thousand dollars of the deposit in the hands of the Receiver General of Canada

That is where the money is now :
-applicable to the assessment policies of the company in Canada at the date of the said license, which dividends shall for policy-holders accepting the first option, be in the form of paid-up insurance to the amount purchasable by the said dividend.

That is the way this $152,000 is disposed of. Every policy-holder accepting option No. 1 will receive a certain amount of insu-[DOT] ranee at the rate fixed by the Act which is about $2 per thousand less than the best companies of Canada charge. In addition lie will receive the paid up policy for his share of the reserve and each of the other options have similar provisions attached. So, that is the way this $152,000 is disposed of. It is disposed of by giving it to the policy-holders, it is in the hands of the Receiver General of Canada as a trust to see that these provisions are carried out and it is impossible for the company to put their hands on one cent of the money.
Mr. FOWLER, The motion which the Hon. Senator McMullen made in the other House is as follows :
That section 5 may be amended by striking out all the words after the words ' Receiver General of Canada ' in line 53 of page 4 of the Bill, and that the following words be substituted in lieu thereof :-' together with any addition thereto under the provisions of this Act, shall not be reduced below the whole amount of insurance in force in Canada.'
That is that this money shall not be taken away. As I understand the explanation of the promoter of the Bill it is not the intention to withdraw the deposit which is now with the Receiver General but that this deposit shall be used for paying the policyholders to accept either of the alternative options which are allowed in this Bill.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Whether they accept the options or not. If they do not accept either of these options within four months the Bill provides that they shall accept option No. 1 and if so they get a paid-up policy for their share. This money is in the hands of the Receiver General. It is not in the control of the company at all and under this Bill every dollar of it is disposed of and given back to the policy-holders. The object of any amendment here would not be to improve the Rill but to have it sent back to the Senate in the hope that through the efflux of time the Bill itself would be quashed. The object is not to look after the welfare of the assessment policy-holders so much as to provide means whereby some one who is hostile to the company may gratify his inclination. As the Bill goes on it will develop itself and each provision will be made clear and plain.


Mr. OI.IVLR.: I would like to ask the promoter of the Bill if there has not been a general explanation of its terms and purpose ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Yes.


Frank Oliver: On this section 2 ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: We have not got to that yet; we are on section 1.


Frank Oliver: The explanation given by the promoter of the Bill had reference to the general subject and he has seen fit to make the sweeping allegation that any one who would dare to suggest any opposition to this Bill or move any amendment to it is actuated by personal or local animosity.


Peter Macdonald: This discussion is irregular. It would be better to take the clauses in order, and move to amend each one as desired.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would be more convenient to allow a general discussion for the time being.


Frank Oliver: I ask the promoter of the Bill what are the reasons which prompt this company to ask for such legislation ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Not being in the confidence of the company I do not know their motives; but judging by the agitation which existed in the country on behalf of the policy-holders who complain of the excessive premiums they are called on to pay, I surmise that this Bill is for their benefit and not for the benefit of the company.


Frank Oliver: The hon. gentleman declines to give the reason why the Bill is before the House, and if there are no reasons in support of the Bill then the House should not entertain it. This Bill involves the right of citizens of this country to the extent of several million dollars, and this parliament should not undertake to legislate away these rights without at least some explanation.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Mr. Burgess sent out a circular asking the policy-holders whether or not they were in favour of the Bill. He received 785 replies in favour of the Bill, forty-six against it, and ninety-eight asking for further information. The forty-six who are opposed to the Bill are not compelled to accept it; their rights are not interfered with, because they can continue as at present if they wish.


Frank Oliver: And what about the ninety-eight ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: They want more information.


Frank Oliver: That is what we want. If this House respects its position it will not undertake at this short notice and at this stage of the session to deal with such a serious question. I insist that we get definite and comprehensive information as to why the company seeks this legislation. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) has told us that it is the policy-holders who are asking for this Bill.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Seven hundred and eighty-five are asking for it.


Frank Oliver: They were asked to ask for it by whoever is the head push of the Bill. I submit that signatures to a petition

are not absolute evidence as to the views of the persons who sign. I will guarantee to take a petition around this House in favour of almost anything, and have it signed by a larger proportion than in this case. But even if the policy-holders all signed it, parliament has a duty to perform. I am safe in saying that out of the 785 who signed, not one of them understands the provisions of this Bill, which not a member of this House will stand up and claim that he understands.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: I will stand up.


Frank Oliver: Then if you understand the provisions of the Bill, you ought be able to explain them.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: I do not want to get into discussion because I do not care anything .about it. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) ?s under the impression that these 785 Signed ignorantly, but there is an affidavit here from Mr. Burgess who swears that a copy of the Bill was sent to the policyholders together with an explanatory circular-


Clifford Sifton: Who is promoting the Bill ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Senator Kerr introduced it in the Senate.


Clifford Sifton: Senator Kerr was only acting as a member of the Senate ; who is promoting the Bill ?


William Stevens Fielding: It is for the company undoubtedly.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The insurance companies objected to an amendment of the Insurance Act, and therefore this measure was introduced as a public Bill, but it might as well have been a private Bill. The following circular was sent out to each of the policyholders :

In the matter of Senate Bill (H) An Act to further amend the Insurance Act.
1.	Inclosed is a copy of Bill (H), introduced In the Senate, to amend the Insurance Act.
2.	As a member of the Mutual Reserve Life Insurance Company holding an assessment policy therein, you are an interested party.
3.	The principle of this Bill has been approved by the Canadian Superintendent of Insurance.
4.	The company believes that its adoption will be to your advantage.
5.	If it is adopted, the amount of the premium payable by you in future will be such a sum as will represent from year to year the average annual assessments (without dues) paid by you in the past.
6.	This amount will he used to give you a policy of insurance, payable at death, on the level premium plan, without profits, either at your present age or at your age when you first become a member, as you shall choose, and will relieve you from all liability for further assessments.
7.	If you choose the latter method, the reserve required by the Insurance Act can be


Frank Oliver: a charge against your policy, bearing interest at 4J per cent, with no personal liability on your part to pay such charge. If.you prefer the policy without a charge, you may at any time pay it off in cash. Under the former method, there will be no charge whatever against your policy.
8.	If by fixing of the level, unchangeable premium at the average of the assessments you have paid in the past, your insurance is reduced below the amount you are now carrying, you have the right (if you desire) to have your policy maintained at its full amount for a proportionately greater premium.
9.	The company is allowed to increase the premium for expenses five per cent, that is, add five cents to each dollar of premium ; but the company is not allowed to charge any other sum for any other purpose.
10.	If the Bill becomes law, the company will be required to keep deposited with the Minister of Finance or trustees the reserve that will afterwards accumulate upon the policy, as is required of all ordinary life insurance companies.
11.	The government now hold about $228,000 as security for the members holding assessment policies. According to the plan proposed by the Bill your share of two-thirds of this deposit will be apportioned to you in paid-up insurance or (if you choose! the option providing for a charge on your policy) in reduction of such charge.
12.	Your rights under the Bill will be absolutely without regard to your present condition of health and without the necessity for any medical examination.



EFFECT OF THE BILL.

[Stage Direction]
13.	Under the present law your assessments must, be increased from time to time to meet death losses.
14.	If Bill (H) becomes law, the premiums will be fixed and unalterable.
15.	Under the present law no new members can be added to the class to which you belong.
16.	If Bill (H) becomes law', all members will be in one general class, with the protection and guaranty of all the funds of the company.
17.	Under the present law you have a fixed amount of insurance and are Iiaole for all necessary assessments.
18.	If Bill (H) becomes law, there will be reduced cost, with generally, reduced insurance ; each member, however, has the right to the full original amount of insurance with an unalterable premium as fixed by the terms of the Bill.
19.	As it is desirable to have an expression of opinion from as many members as possible, please return the inclosed slip, signed by yourself, giving your approval or disapproval of the principle of .the Bill. An addressed, stamped envelope for this purpose is inclosed.
In the accompanying slip they say :
Please fill in the number of your policy.
The undersigned, whose life is insured under assessment policy No.

ip the Mutual Reserve Life Insurance Company	(approves or disapproves) of the principle of the Bill.'
In reply to that, with the Bill before them and the explanations accompanying, it, 785 approved of this Bill and 46 opposed it; and those 46, under the Bill, will occupy the

same position, if they choose, that they do now.
John Graham Haggart: Are all these promises provided for in the Bill ?


Mr. HE  YD@: Yes ; every promise.


Mr. GERVAIS.: No ; they are not.


Frank Oliver: I am surprised to find, from the reading of this statement by the company of what it proposes to do, that there should be forty policy-holders opposed to the proposed Bill and ninety who ask for further information. I do not think there could be better evidence presented to this House that there is something very questionable either about this company or about this proposition-something so questionable that this House, at this stage of the session, with only the number of members we have present, cannot acquit itself with credit before the country in undertaking to dispose of these rights. In that long explanation I caught just one word which carried a definite idea to my mind; that was, that under the new arrangement the premiums of the policy-holders were increased 5 pe-cent. Did I catch that correctly ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: No.


Frank Oliver: Then I did not catch a single thing in all the statement which the hon. gentleman read, and I claim to be as competent to understand the English language as any member here. But when a document, prepared by the cleverest lawyer whom a clever company, with long practice in this business, has been able to secure, brings out the response that it did from the men who were most interested ; when 98 of them, having had the opportunity of reading that document, having had intimate knowledge of the workings of that company, being so directly interested that it would be their business to study it before it went into print, said they were not able to make up their minds on the subject ; T say that the forty or fifty members of parliament here present would be going beyond their duty if they made up their minds on the mere casual reading of that document by the hon. member, which he did not propose to do until practically forced to do it.
I say that the company is discredited, so far as its intentions are concerned, by such a procedure. I say nothing against the company ; but I say that the procedure is most unfortunate ; that of asking parliament to concede a total change qf base on the part of such a company at a moment's notice.
I have asked the hon. gentleman, and I ask him again, for the reason behind this Bill. He has not given us the reason ; he has not attempted to do so. He has at tempted to give us a set of reasons readymade to appeal to the policy-holders. Why should the company wish-because it is not the policy-holders who are asking for this ; it is the company-why does the company wish to change its whole system of doing
business ? That is the important question we have to deal with.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The company changed that five years ago. It then ceased doing business in Canada on the assessment plan, and lias since been doing it on the straight-life plan. In the meantime there are no young lives coming in, and the men in the company are getting older while their premiums are getting larger, and they are dropping out iby the score. It is to protect these holders that I am supporting this Bill. Here is a Bill that purports to be in the interest of the policy-holders, and it is our duty to examine it and see whether it is in their interest or not. This circular was issued on May 21. At that time the Bill was slight ly different from what it is now. Since then it has passed through the Senate and has been examined by the insurance authorities -by Mr. Fitzgerald on behalf of the Insurance Department, by Mr. Bradshaw on behalf of the life insurance companies of Canada, and by Mr. Eldridge on behalf of the company ; and now it is up to us to say whether we approve of the Bill or not. Let us take up the Bill clause by clause and deal with it. If it can be shown that it works injuriously to the policy-holders, let us defeat it. I am not trying to conceal anything, nor had I any purpose in abstaining from reading that document other than to avoid wasting time.


John Graham Haggart: What will be the amount in the hands of the government if this Bill passes ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: 


John Graham Haggart: Why is that not disposed of ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The official document which I have in my hand, prepared by the actuarial department, says :
Prom these calculations I conclude that a deduction of one-third of the reserve, or $76,000, is more than ample for these liabilities.
There are certain liabilities which $76,000 will pay off, which will leave two-thirds, or $150,000 at least, to be apportioned among the policy-holders.


John Graham Haggart: What are the liabilities ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: They are death claims which have not yet been paid. There is $152,000 in tfie finnds of the Receiver General, which is divisible, and the division of which is ail provided for bjr this Bill. If we take up the Bill clause by clause, and if fault can be found with any provision in it, it will then be time enough to complain.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: A number of cases in mj locality were submitted to me, and I saw the circular and the Bill. After going into the matter very carefully. I advised the parties to sign the circular, because it seemed to me, from what I knew of the

company and its operations, that those who remained would be either driven out of the company or be compelled to pay for their insurance an amount which they could not afford to pay. Those few who rafmajttied would ultimately be driven out of the company or compelled to pay a sum they could not afford to pay and they were past the time of life when they could reinsure. Be-for one o'clock I gave an instance as an illustration. I know of the case of a man 'who took out $5,060 of Insurance in this company for which he was to pay $9.95 every two months. He understood that that was a fixed premium, but it seems it was not because it is an assessment company. After this company found that its business was not being done on a sound basis, it stopped doing business in Canada, and like every other assessment insurance company, when new members are not ^coming in, it was bound soon to die by* inanition. Those who remained must pay increased premiums as deaths occur. The result was that after the company stopped doing business, the premiums ran up from year to year until last year this man was paying $76.75 every two months and $18.65 for his annuity. There were two features in his policy. One was he -was to get $5,000 at death and the other he was to get $500 a year after a certain age for the balance of his life. You see how rapidly his premiums ran up, and at the rate of increase in a short time he would have to drop paying altogether. Therefore I recommend that a change bo made. The hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) asks what is the reason for this Bill. The object, as I understand it, is that the company, having this branch of insurance on their hands, cannot go on pushing it by bringing in new members and have to settle in some way. and they are taking the only way possible, and that is by providing that the assessment policies may be converted into straight line life policies. They will give a straight line life policy for the average the premium would pay. This of course would reduce the policies very much, because what the policy-holders are paying now would not give them the same amount of insurance on straight line life and provide for the 3 per cent which must be paid the government by insurance companies. I advised those who appealed to me that they had better accept that change than keep under the old system.


Frank Oliver: We are getting some little information on the subject now. According to the hon. member for Grey (Mr. Sproule), this company was practically in a condition of default.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Not at all. You must bear in mind that these contracts were not taken by the company but "by an association of which each one was a member.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Frank Oliver: The idea my hon. friend has tried to convey from the start is that it is the policy-holders who are asking for this Bill. Now, it is not the policyholders who were the organizers of the company.	There is' no earthly use
in quibbling on words. We know that there is some kind of organization at the head of every mutual company, somebody who profits more or less by its operations. Otherwise, there could be no company. I repeat that, according to the hon. member for Grey, this company was in such a position that it either had to break faith with its policy-holders or become insolvent. Failing to get new policy-holders, the premiums were going up to such an extent that those holding policies in the company could not afford to continue paying. That is a condition practically of bankruptcy.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Dissolution would be a better word.


Frank Oliver: Not at all. If this company, by reason of its operations, got into an impracticable position when it can neither go forward nor back, what should be done in such a ease ? What is ever done in such a case, in any business matter, but wind the concern up. Do not let it go on. If there is money in reserve, let it be Used to pay back to those who have paid into the company and let this business be settled with credit to all concerned. But that is not the purpose of the Bill. Clause 2 provides that after the obligations of the company have been entirely altered by Act of parliament, it shall be empowered to go on and do business in Canada. That is just the position of a merchant, who, having transacted business in an improper or improvident manner, has come to the point when he must stop. He goes to the bankruptcy court, he gets a quittance from his creditors at so much on the dollar, and is prepared to continue on a new basis. That is the purpose of the Bill, and I submit that, however legitimate that purpose may be, under proper circumstances, I do maintain that to ask this House at this stage of the session, with only a few members present, to put this company through the bankruptcy court, rehabilitate it and turn it loose on the Canadian public again, is to ask us to take responsibility which I for one will not consent to.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: There Is one important feature which our hon. friend has forgotten. This is not a bankrupt company. It is established under a charter from New York state, under the title of the Mutual Reserve. It has a license from the present government, it has made its deposit, and is doing a regular life insurance business here. No matter how much you might want to put it into insolvency, you could not, because it has complied with the requirements of
8GS9

the law, is in good standing and can go on doing business, whether this Bill be defeated or not.


Frank Oliver: If that be the case, why should .parliament be asked to consent to an agreement which it does not understand and which it does not propose to take the trouble to understand. The thing is an outrage. It is unnecessary. If this company has been doing business the last five years, it can go on doing business another year without this change. Let it go on doing business under its present legislation and not come and get the sanction of parliament to a new arrangement. The hon. member says it is not bankrupt. I admit that the word is not absolutely applicable, but I am a' a loss to describe the condition of a company whose policy-holders are in such a position that they are practically being frozen out and must lose their money. And on this plea and under that stress of circumstances, we are supposed to put our name and authority to an arrangement of which we know practically nothing and which certainly has not been justified before the House.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: My hon. friend is hardly complimentary to the House when he says we know nothing about the Bill. If lie knows nothing about it, that is no reason why he should assume that everybody else is equally ignorant. This Bill has been before the Senate the past two months. The Insurance Department has pronounced upon it. the Senate committee has been considering it in very aspect, their proceedings have been opened to every member fo this House, many of us have followed them with considerable attention, insurance experts have given their assistance in framing the present Bill, and to say that we know nothing -about it is going rather far.


Peter Macdonald: I am afraid we won't know anything about it unless the committee goes ahead with its work. The committee expressed a desire to .have a general debate, but I think that has now gone far enough and that we are able to deal with tlie clauses in their order.
On section 1,
1. In this Actla.) the word ' company ' means ' The Mutual Reserve Life Insurance Company ' ;	'
(b.) the expression * new premium ' means the average annual amount (not including dues) paid in respect of an assessment policy from the date of its issue to the date of the license to be issued under section 2 of this Act ;
(c.) the expression ' assessment policy ' means a policy issued or assumed by the company in Canada prior to the eleventh day of August, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine.


Frank Oliver: Since the hon. member (Mr. Heyd), who introduced the Bill, claims
to be thoroughly conversant with it. I would ask his explanation of subsection (b).


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The question as to the meaning of the phrase ' new premium.' The Insurance Department have worked out a case. They take a case of a policy for $5,000, taken out in March, 1891, at age 39, present age 52, yearly assessment $57.10. Now, if the person had been in the company fifteen years, during that time he would have pjiid on each $1,000 insurance, $150 in premium or $10 per year. That would be the amount of the ' new premium,' and for that $10 he would buy as much insurance per annum as the statistical table provided by the department will buy.


Frank Oliver: How much would that be 7


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Such a policy-holder as I have described taking the first option under this Bill would get his insurance at about $2 less than he could get it for in an ordinary company. He would probably get $176 of the reserve in the form of a paid up insurance, making in all $1,005. That is his position. Now, while it reduces the amount of insurance he would get, it fixes the price of insurance he .will pay in the future. But if the one choosing the option desires to carry the amount of insurance he has always carried, he can do so by paying the rate specified in the table, it will benefit the policy-holder saving $10 a year on this insurance of $5,000, and also lie will be taken in without a fresh medical examination, if the Bill does not go through and that policy lapses, that man, if he could not pass a medical examination, would be precluded from getting insurance in the future. But, udder this Bill he gets his insurance cheaper than ho could get it anywhere else and he gets it without making it dependent on his passing a medical examination. If a man has consumption, that is a good concession.


Frank Oliver: I understand the proposition to be to reduce the amount of insurance and increase the amount of premium ? Am I right ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: In the case I have spoken of the insurance will be reduced from $5,000 to $1,425.


Frank Oliver: What ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: It will be reduced to $1,425. But the man does not need to change. If he wishes to cbntinue as he is, he can keep his insurance for $5,000 and probably pay $500 a year. This company has ceased to do business of this class, and the members of that class must pay the- death rate of their class. They are growing less all the time, and the last man will have to pay his own policy. If he chooses to stay he can do so. But, if not he can take this option which, the Insurance Department tell us, is the best that can be done under the cir-cumstanees. We do not deprive a man of

the right to pay his neighbour's death claim and his own. But this gives him the opportunity to get insurance on the level premium plan and as large an insurance as possible.


Frank Oliver: The hon. member (Mr. Heyd) has stated that this is not a bankrupt institution. Yet we find that the proposition of this Bill is that it shall compound with its creditors on the basis of $1,425 for $5,000. That is a difference of $3,575. I should be inclined to regard a concern of that kind as a bankrupt institution. We, as a matter of fact, are constituting ourselves a bankruptcy court for the purpose of putting the company through. Now, I do not object to putting the company through the bankruptcy court. But I do object to this company being put through the bankruptcy court on a basis of 25 or 30 cents on the dollar and then allowed to go on and do business throughout this fair country of ours.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: But does not the hon. gentleman notice that, while it reduces its policy from $5,000 to $1,425, if he accepts the option, yet, nothing is forced upon him, and he has the right to remain as he is with his policy of $5,000. Or, he can keep his policy at $5,000 and pay on the level premium plan, and while the premium under this Bill, age 52 would be about $400 a year, it wrould be less than the man is paying now probably. According to the hon. member for Grey (Air. Sproule) he would be paying about $500 per year. Is it not a relief for a man if he gets his insurance for less money ?


Frank Oliver: Well, Mr. Chairman, it ^appears that what I have said in regard to this company is altogether too mild. If this option of dropping two-thirds of his insurance is the best that the company can do, it is the duty of this parliament to consider this Bill with a view to winding up the affairs of this company.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: You can't wind them up.


Frank Oliver: Then it is our duty to


Charles Bernhard Heyd: What ?


Frank Oliver: To take such measures as will wind them up.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: How will you do that ?


Frank Oliver: It is not for me to say at this moment. But I think the parliament of Canada is clothed with power.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: You can't wind up a solvent concern.


Frank Oliver: I think it is quite possible that parliament could wind them up. At any rate, for parliament to give its sanction to the operation of an institution which, having conducted business in this country for so many years has arrived at the condition that it offers to compound with its creditors on the basis of 25 cents on Mr. HEYD.
the dollar and threatens that if they do not take that offer they will have to continue as they are-which means that they will be robbed of everything-is a most unheard of thing. And, certainly, when we have such a proposition before us, at least parliament should have a reasonable time to consider it and to judge whether we should give our sanction. We are asked to accept what this management has done and then allow it to go on until it is compelled to compound with its creditors again. I submit that the very fact that 40 out of these policy-holders refuse this offer and that 9S of them asked for further information, although the threat was made to them, as stated by the hon. member, is reason why we should pause before taking this step. As the hon. member for East Grey indicates, the choice offered by the company is Hobson's choice-to take what is offered or get nothing at all ; to take 25 cents on the dollar or be robbed completely. I say that such an Act should not be accepted by parliament with the explanations that have been made here. Such a measure should be taken up at a time when it is possible for explanations to be made which v."l enable hon. members to justify themselves to their constituents in allowing the company to pursue its operations. These insurance companies are for the purpose of protecting the widow and the orphan and when it is proven that an insurance company exists on the robbery of the widow and the orphan, for that is what this means, I say that this parliament of Canada should consider how far it is for them to condone such a condition of affairs by assenting.
On section 2,


William Alfred Galliher: This, I think, would be a prudent time to get information as to what this company proposes to do with its shareholders if it gets a license. Take the case of a man holding a policy of $5,000 who is now fifty-two years of age. Supposing he elects to remain in at the $5,000 will ihe premium that he would have to pay to file company on that $5,00(4 from the present time out be as small a premium as he will have to pay providing he were a fit subject for insurance in any straight life company. As I understand lie would not be called upon to pay more than he would have to pay in another straight life company.
iMr. HEYD. That is correct.


William Alfred Galliher: If this is correct it does not seem to me there should be the objection to the Bill urged by the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver). In the first place the policy-holder went into a mutual insurance company. It is true he has to pay more than he expected to pay but at all events he has been paying on the basis of a mutual insurance company. Now, he

has this advantage, as my hon. friend from Bast Grey pointed out, and it seems to me it is certainly a case of Hobson's choice because when the new blood that would be naturally coming in from year to year and swelling the receipts of this insurance company, when they were carrying on a mutual insurance, has been cut off, as it eventually will be and when the policy-holders narrow down to a few who are holders of these mutual policies it means that these remaining policy-holders will be paying more than they can afford or more than the amount of the policy in the event of death would amount to. Thus it is to that extent in the interest of these policy-holders, I do not think there can be any question about that. It is in their interest that there should be some means by which their policies will not become practically useless, as they otherwise would. They have this additional advantage that they can be granted that straight life policy, based on their present age, without a further examination. That, I think, is an important feature. If we refuse to pass this Act it may mean that a number of these policy-holders who have rights to-day wil be obliged to abandon them. They will not only have to drop what they have paid but the policy will be gone. There will be nothing for their widows and orphans on the death of the policy-holders. Companies say :	We cannot do business on the mutual system any more but we will give you two options, to retain the straight policy ; retaining the original sum, and without a medical examination which might otherwise debar you, and we will not call upon you to pay as much as or at all events any more than you would be called upon to pay in other companies at your age.
IMr. HEYD. That is correct.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish to reply to one question of the hon. member for Alberta, as to why the company was not wound up. As long as a company is doing business within the lines of the Insurance Act you cannot close it. The members of a mutual company must raise the money to pay the death claims, and if the amount in the original contract which was in 'this case to which I have referred, $9.95 on every two months, is not sufficient to pay the death claims, the Insurance Act provides that that amount may be increased, and under that clause they are increased from year to year, thus keeping the company alive. Therefore you cannot wind it up as long as it is doing business under the law. If the company ceases to do business they can distribute what is in their hands among the members, but so long as they do Hot want it wound up and are doing business, as a bona fide insurance company you cannot wind it up. With regard to the other question raised by the hon. member for Yale-
Cariboo, I may say that that is a case in poirif. Here is a gentleman with a $5,000 policy who is paying to-day $572.40 and the rate is going up in a manner which if it continues will before another year make the amount he will be paying a great deal over $1,000. If "that man lived five years, notwithstanding that he had paid into this fund for years he would pay more than the whole amount of the money that would be given to his heirs at the time of his depth, but on the other hand, if he dropped out now, he could not get into another company because he would not stand the examination. I know that for a fact, and therefore he would be deprived of the advantage of all the money he had paid in except in so far as it "carried the risk up to this time. Now, he can take a policy under this new system for the average of the amount that the premium will pay or he can pay an additional amount on the same basis and get this $5,000 policy. It is making the best of a bad job.


Andrew Broder: Have those who went in on the mutual basis any claim upon the deposit which is supposed to protect the insured ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: They get it all under this Bill.


Andrew Broder: I know, but if they change over to the straight line have they this deposit behind them ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: If .they turn over to the straight line it is divided pro rata amongst them.


Andrew Broder: But in the other case they have no claim ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: They have no claim. They have simply to respond to the assessments.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words about this Bill. According to the statement made by the promoter of this Bill (Mr. Heyd), this parliament must constitute itself into a court of bankruptcy. I think that is a bad principle to be adopted in this House. This parliament should not constitute .itself into a court of brankruptcy. I beg to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that according to the statement of the hon. promoter of the Bill this Mutual Reserve Fund Life Association is now bankrupt. According to a decree of the Privy Council of England it will be fifty times more a bank-i-upt within three months. Under these circumstances I want to know if this is a proper time for the parliament of Canada to deal with this question. Is not this Bill premature ? A cablegram which has just been received in Ottawa states that in the case of Foster vs. the Mutual Reserve Fund Life Association of New York the Lord Chancellor of England characterized

tire company's policy as tricky and intentionally ambiguous and maintained the judgment given by the High Court of Justice of Appellate Division in England. That means practically that within three months from the present time thousands of judgments will be issued by the court's of Great Britain as well as by our own courts against this company, and it means that within three months the appeal of Mr. Angers which is now pending in the Supreme Court of Canada will have to be maintained, the result of which will be that those who are insured in this concern will proceed against this company and have the assets of the company properly distributed and divided up between them. Under the circumstances, Mr. Chairman, is it not a fact that by adopting the measure which is now before the committee we will be seriously interfering with the rights and opportunities of the thousands of insured in Canada ? The Lord Chancellor of England has declared that the methods of this company in England have been fraudulent and all of our courts, not only the ordinary courts of the country but the Supreme Court of Canada will, in view of this declaration, have to decide that this company has been a fraud upon Canada. According to the rules of insurance which are in force in Canada the Supreme Court will have to declare in favour of Mr. Angers, and if it does that it means that the insured will have a good claim recoverable in law as well as in equity in all the courts of Canada. Under the circumstances are we not trespassing upon the rights of the thousands who are insured with the Mutual Reserve Fund Life Association in Canada ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What would an execution be worth against a company that had no assets ?


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: I will answer my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule). Wait for a few months. Where are the assets which were shown to exist by the cash books and journals of the company ? It has not yet been clearly shown where they have gone. Let us wait for six months. Then we will make an effort to discover the assets of this company. We cannot in any event be put in a worse position than that which we occupy to-day. All the assets we have to divide up to-day represent only $228,000. Let us keep that sum within our own hands and within six months we will investigate the matter. We will ascertain the value of the decree which has issued from the highest court in the land. Then, we can pass this Bill next session if we think it is a proper Bill to be passed. At any rate I do not want to be dictated to by tlie Senate of Canada. I do not attach any sincerity to clause 5 of this Bill, because, to use the language of the learned judge of the Privy Council from the bottom of my Mr. GERVAIS.
heart, I do not believe there is any honesty in the Bill. As far as I can understand it clause 5 means that the Mutual Reserve Fund want to continue their business, say for 24 hours, they want to issue a new policy and then to get hold of the deposit and go back to Long Branch. Under the circumstances there is only one course open to us and that is to vote that this Bill be given the six months hoist if we are to take cognizance of the cablegram which I have read to the committee and appreciate at its true value the decree given by the Privy Council of England. We should await the decision which will shortly be given by the Supreme Court of Canada upon the appeal there pending, and next year we will ask this House to decide in what way and under what conditions the deposit which We now hold shall be divided amongst the insured.


Mr. HE  YD@: If every word the hon. gentleman said were absolutely true


William Ross: Every word is true.
Mr. HE YD-it would not do the assessment policy-holders any good. This $228.000 is under the control of our government for the benefit of the Canadian policy-holders and it cannot be touched by any English judges who may pass judgment.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: I would like to ask a question of the hon. gentleman (Mr. ILeyd). The House of Lords having decided in the case of Foster vs. The Mutual Reserve Fund Life Association in the way I have indi-ciated, will it not have to be decided by the courts of the province of Quebec as well as by the courts of the other six provinces composing the confederation that every one of the insured will have to be refunded his money out of the funds of the company ? The question may be asked: Where are these funds to be taken from ? Well, we will see.


Andrew Broder: Suppose that these people accede to the proposition contained in the Bill after it becomes law and that they turn over from the mutual to the straight line system of insurance, if the business done on the straight line basis is greater than that which the deposit at present covers has the deposit to be increased ? Is there any provision that the deposit with the government shall be increased to cover any additional business ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: According to the law as I understand it, this company must keep a reserve with the government such as would enable the government to reinsure all these lives in any other solvent company, if this company were to collapse.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The deposit is in proportion to the business done.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Yes, and if they increase the policy-holders in Canada they would have to keep on increasing the reserve. The judgment referred to was in connection with a peculiar policy. It was taken out for fifteen years under the ordinary conditions, but this gentleman had a letter from one of the directors of the company stating that his premiums would not increase, and the court therefore held that this was a special contract and that the extra premiums must be refunded with 4 per cent. If we have in Canada any policy-holders who have a similar letter from one of the directors, I assume they would be in the same position. But even if there were a thousand of such it would not affect the money in the hands of the government. If the annual dues are paid this company has to give to our government such a reserve as will enable our government to reinsure them in another company. I assume that the Insurance Department of the government will see that the reserve required by law is kept intact, and if the government allow the reserve to go under the safety limit the government is responsible.


Frank Oliver: We want to find out how this company stands ; whether it is independent of the parliament of Canada or whether it is subject to the parliament of Canada. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) has tried to create the impression that there is a sum of money in the hands of the government which absolutely protects the persons insured in the company, but that protection only amounts to 25 or 30 per cent of the face value of the policy. Instead of the insured being able to depend on $5,000 he is only insured for $1,400. For one reason or the other the company has got itself into such a positipn that its policy-holders stand to-day to lose the difference between $5,000 and $1,400 in the value of each policy to the amount of $5,000; and this is the company that asks parliament to put it in a legal position to do business with the people of Canada. I am not so much concerned with the present policy-holders as with those who may enter the company in future if this parliament starts it on its feet again. The statements put before the House to-day more than justify us in demanding that the affairs of this company be examined into. Is it to be said that this parliament shall calmly vote away the rights of the policyholders of this company to the amount of two-thirds of their iiolicies without any justification except that the company has been improperly or badly managed. How many million dolfeirs worth of policies does this company hold ?


An hon. MEMBER.: 


Frank Oliver: Are we to reduce $20,000,000 to $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 by a snap of the finger ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: There are 3,600 policy-holders in this class in Canada, representing $8,000,000.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: I rise to a point of order : has this Bill been printed in French ?


Peter Macdonald: It comes from the Senate and I presume it has.


Frank Oliver: Are we to reduce the face value of that $8,000,000 to $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 V Are we to wipe out what the widows and the orphans present and prospective expected was a reliable asset because the management of this company has been either incompetent or corrupt ? Are we to accept such a proposition on the spur of the moment ? Surely such a proposal is entitled to mature consideration from this House. No matter how the Senate has looked at it; no matter how the insurance people have looked at it ; we have responsibilities to those who are in the company and to those who may be induced to come into such a company in the future if we rehabilitate its credit. This is why I ask for delay.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Has my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) ever read this Bill through ?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3,
Frank Oliver: I want an explanation from the promoter of the Bill of clause 1 of subsection b of section 3.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The illustration which I read is an exemplification of it. I have taken the case of a policy taken out in March, 1891 ; age of entry, 39 ; present age, 52; the amount of the policy, $5,000 ; and the average yearly assessment, $57.16. The first option gives him a net premium of $57.16, which will purchase, $1,429 of insurance without a medical examination ; the second gives him the right jto continue the whole $5,000 by paying the fates agreed upon here. This is the explanation which the department gives.
Clause 1 will give the following advantages : no medical examination will he required ; loading up expenses will be very small; and he will he entitled to whatever free or paid-up insurance may be allotted to him under this section.


Frank Oliver: If I had not read this section, I would have supposed that under the new arrangement the insured person would get the benefit of the rate at which he was insured. He does not do any such thing. He simply gets the rate at which he could be insured In any other company.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Slightly less.


Frank Oliver: There is a distinct breach of agreement between the company and the insured. The party was insured at a certain premium at a certain age, and years af-

terwards this parliament tells liim you can continue your insurance provided you will accept a reduced policy equal to a valuation based on your present age.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: But the company did not make a contract that on the payment of a certain premium they would continue the policy. That premium was liable to be raised from year to year as the necessities of the company required.


Frank Oliver: He came in at a certain age and got the benefit of the insurance rate applicable to that age. That benefit he loses by this provision, because you reduce his policy to what it would be worth If he were taking it out to-day.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: He will enjoy the advantage that his premium will be fixed one instead of being liable to be increased as it is at present. And he will be getting a cheaper insurance than he would get in any straight life company in Canada and be allowed to go on without ahy medical examination. '


Frank Oliver: We are not complaining that this company graciously permits its policy-holders to retain some interest because of the money they have paid. But this company has violated its contract, and we are asking parliament to sanction that violation and put it in a position to do business with the people of Canada again, which it is unable to do now.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: What contract do they violate ? They made no contract for fixed rates. The contract provided that the rates might increase just as in the ease of all assessment companies.


Frank Oliver: That may not he the letter of the contract but certainly the agents of the company induced people to take out po: licies In it by representing that the rajtets were not likely to be increased. It is just the same as the hayfork swindle. The fact that the contract does not carry out what the company promised through its agents1 does not put it in a better position, and they should not be allowed to be set free again to perpetrate similar swindles on the people.


David Henderson: Was it at the instance of the company that this investigation took place ? I have heard the hon. member for Alberta say that this company are asking for the power given under this Bill. I was under the impression that the whole matter has been forced on the company. How did- this Bill originate ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The first I heard of this Bill was that it was introduced by Senator Kerr. At whose instance it was introduced, I do not know. All I am interested in is the question whether it is going to be a benefit to the Canadian policy-holders or not.


William Alfred Galliher: There is one point 1 am not clear about. When I spoke before, Mr. OLIVER.
I pointed out the case of where the assured kept on his $5,000 policy as a straight life policy and paid the premium chargeable at the age he now is. But when he elects to take the other coursq and takes a $3,463 policy, or whatever it may be, instead of his $5,000 policy, what premium does he have to pay ? Does he have to pay the premium which he would be charged by a straight life company at the age he took out the policy or at his age to-day ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: He has the right, based upon the average of his payments, to such an amount of insurance as that average rate will pay. Dpon that basis the rest in the hands of the government is divided ; but while his average payments will give him a policy of $1,460, he can still keep on his $5,000 policy by paying at the same rate as he would pay on the $1,400, or at a rate $1.65 per thousand less than in the Confederation Life, say his age was fifty-two.


Frank Oliver: The reading is very plain.


William Alfred Galliher: If when this man's policy is whittled down from $5,000 to $1,460, he has to pay on the $1,463 the same premium that he would have to pay If he made a new application to-day for that amount, I do not see what benefit he gets in accepting that reduced policy. If his policy Is reduced from $5,000 to $1,463, he should only be charged on that amount the premium he would pay at the age of his first application.
(Mr. HEYD. On that basis if you were to take a man at fifty years of age and continue him on the rate at the age when he first applied, where is the money to come from ?


William Alfred Galliher: The policy has been reduced from $5,000 to $1,400 and the company has not been carrying on its business during all that time for love. He has been paying under the mutual system very heavy assessments in the way of premiums.


Mr.   WM@: ROS'S (Victoria). They were cheating the people.


William Alfred Galliher: That may be. It maybe a very vile company or not. I have no (personal knowledge, but if the policy- is cut down from $5,000 to $1,460, I do not see why he should not be placed in the position of only being charged the premium on the reduced amount such as he would have had to pay at the age of entry.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: If that gentleman had gone into a strange life company- fifteen years ago and paid the rates which such a company charged, he would have $527 lying to the credit of that particular policy which would enable the premium to be kept down to the price at the age of entry, but as he has not paid any such rate, the-money is not in the treasury. I suppose that every man who has had his life carried for half

what it Is worth for fifteen years thinks the company owes him something because it does not continue that operation. He has had value in having been insured, even though he has not died.


William Alfred Galliher: I wonder at the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) making such a statement. These people came into the company under representations that their lives would be carried for half what other companies would carry it for. They were told that they would have to pay certain specified assessments,-which, in all human possibility, would not exceed a certain amount. Then the company discontinue that system in Canada and oblige the people who are insured under it to pay, not only all that their lives are worth to carry, but twice, three times-yes, five times as much.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: That is a good synopsis of the condition. Representations were made to the people that certain assessments would be made, which, very likely, would not go up, but which might go up. Everybody who goes into an assessment company takes chances of the assessments going up.


William Alfred Galliher: But did not the very act of the company in discontinuing the class of insurance cause them to go up 1


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The company, while doing assessment business, were doing it according to the law. But the premiums collected were too small. The assessments had to be increased, and, because of the increase in the assessments, three-quarters of the people dropped out. This leaves a large proportion of people who are likely to die, who have to hang on, and it is for these people that we are working now.


Frank Oliver: At one moment we are told that the company did not get enough money and the next we are told they got too much. The reason the people dropped out was because the assessments were too high. If that is so, the contention can hardly be justified that people who remained in did not pay enough money. They paid too much. And yet they have now to come in at a rate which was not taken into consideration, which was not in expectation in any way. And, if this is necessary, it is because of conditions brought about solely by the acts of the company, nets for which the policy-holders are not responsible.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: This concession does not benefit the company.


Peter Macdonald: Allow me to make a suggestion. We will carry one section every little while, and so make some progress.
On section 5,
5. After the date of the said license the company shall he subject to make deposit only as provided in sections 7 to 11, both inclusive, of the Insurance Act, and all the assets in Canada 276
shall be applicable to all the insurance liabilities of the company in Canada ; provided that the deposits of the company with the Receiver General of Canada shall not be reduced below the amount at the date of the said license so long as the company is undertaking in Canada new contracts of insurance, and shall in all respects be subject to sections 33 and 34 of the Insurance Act.


Frank Oliver: This section is intimatelly connected with the deposit now held by the government as security for the policy-holders of the company. Under the wording of this section, all the company has to do is to cease doing business in Canada in order to entitle them to draw the last cent of the deposit, leaving the policy-holders to whistle for their money.
Mr. GERVAI'S. I beg leave to move, seconded by Mr. Oliver, that the following be added to section 5 :
Provided also that no such reduction of the deposit as it stands to-day be made for a period of five years from the present time, except for the purpose of paying death claims in accordance with the Insurance Act.
I do not see why objection should be raised to such an amendment as this.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: This is a very important matter. I can tell hon. gentlemen that a good lawyer could make out of this section 5 fifty cases for the Privy Council in England. The section is very 'ambiguous, and it has been made ambiguous purposely. I want to make it clear. Can there be any objection on either side of the House to making this section clear now that we have it before us to deal with ? Surely it is only reasonable to provide that this disposit shall not be reduced for any reason except to pay death claims according to our law relating to insurance companies.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: This section is a most important one. It expresses most clearly the intentions of those who are opposed to this Bill. The very object intended to be secured by the amendment is provided for in this section to the satisfaction of the Insurance Department. The Minister of Finance is here, and he will probably express his own opinion about it. The effect of adopting this amendment would be to throw the Bill back into the hands of the Senate, where, by the efflux of time, it would be killed. That is the effect of the motion-I will not say it is the intention. We have all been in parliament long enough to know that if this House is to close to-night or Mondav night this Bill will be fought in the Senate by the people who have been fighting it for two months. In the interest of the policyholders in this country, whose interests are preserved by the Bill, we should avoid amendment if possible. And amendment can be avoided here, because every idea contained in the proposed amendment is al-



ready covered in the section. If the Bill is killed in the Senate many of these policyholders 'will be forced out through an increase of assessments. How will this benefit them ? And what harm will it do the company ? You cannot hurt the company by preventing the Bill going through. They do not care whether you carry it or not. They will simply levy assessments upon these people, and as long as they do so, these policy-holders will pay. When the thing comes to its finish and there are only two or three policy-holders left, the two will have to pay $500 each to pay the death claim of the third, and when there is only one left he will have to pay his own $1,000. If this amendment carries that will be the ultimate result. It will not protect the policy-holders one hair. This deposit is in the hands of the Receiver General, and cannot be moved by the company.


John Graham Haggart: I have not yet heard anything which empowers the government to pay out this sum of money which is on deposit with them in accordance with the provisions of the Bill.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: The General Insurance Act of Canada will empower the government to do that. Here is the theory upon which the insurance deposits are to be made. When a company starts into the insurance business it has to make a fixed deposit and then this deposit must be increased as new policies are issued. As a matter of fact the Mutual Reserve Fund, if I am well informed, made a primary deposit of $50,000. Then they issued a large number of policies and had to make additional deposits up to the amount of $228,000. They now want under what, we call the theory of this law, to have a new license issued by the Department of Insurance and then they want to be empowered to make a new deposit under that new license. If that is done, as the amount of their policies has decreased in the meantime, they will have to make a deposit only in proportion to the reduced amount of the policies in force. That means practically that these gentlemen will have their deposits within twenty-four hours after the passing of this Act, reducing the amount required to $50,000. They will get a cheque from Mr. Fitzgerald and go back, ns I said, to Long Branch. There is no good reason for passing this Bill. I appeal to the reasoning power of both sides of this House. There is very grave doubt about the drafting of that clause in the Senate. I understand that, if I am well informed, the amendment I am now proposing was agreed to in the Senate. It is a grave thing, it is a grave charge I am making, but lam informed that this clause had been agreed to, and that the proposed amendment of the law was to be inserted but that was not done and it is not in the law. I say now, without making a trial balance, without making up the accounts of the duties and Mr. HEYD.
responsibilities of all the persons concerned, we have an opportunity now to make this law clear and let us do so. Let it be written in this law which is now under the fire of discussion, that from now on nobody will have a right to reduce that deposit until a period of five years has elapsed.


James Clancy: Why five years, why not altogether ?


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: My answer is this, let us keep ' both hands ' on this deposit during a period of five years, then after that period of five years has elapsed, we will see whether or not the Mutual Reserve Fund Company is bona fide doing business in Caai-ada. If the company is bona fide doing business in Canada then they might be permitted to decrease the amount of their deposit. If this company at the end of that time has not done any bona fide business in Canada, we will say : We do not want one farthing to be deducted from that deposit. That is the aim of my amendment. Is there anybody in this House to say tliaf this amendment will not be to the advantage of all the policy-holders ? It is in the interest of everybody ; we want it to be made clear, unquestionable, as we say under the Torrens system, indefeasible, that the deposit of $228,000 will not be reduced for a period of five years under any circumstances. except for paying deatli claims as they stand to-day.


John Graham Haggart: It is true, as the hon. gentleman says, that the Bill provides that they may perhaps get a license on more favourable terms than before. This sura of money at present in the hands of the government was deposited under a general clause of the Insurance Act. This Bill is for the purpose of enabling those outside the Insurance Act to obtain control of the money deposit. There is no provision under the proposed legislation to give to the government power to pay it back to these parties under this Act.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: This money is absolutely under the control of the Receiver General and not under that of any insurance company, and it never can be.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. gentleman does not seem to comprehend what I have said. This money is deposited with the gov-ernmeiit and the government have control of it under the Insurance Act. The complaint was that the government were bound by the Insurance Act and could not pay it out on any arrangement which the company may make with the government. The company are authorized under this Bill to make arrangements with their policy-holders and to get a license, perhaps as this gentleman says, on lower terms. Where is the provision empowering the government to enter into such an arrangement as is proposed in this Bill ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: This clause has reference to the question of license. Before an insurance company can do business, it must deposit with the government $50,000. That is the first thing. Then it must keep up its reserves. There is $152,000 in the hands of the government for the benefit of these policy-holders. The alternatives which the policy-holders may select are as follows :
Those who accept proposition one, receive so much paid up insurance.
Those who accept proposition two, receive a certain reduction in the rate of premium.
Those who refuse either and do not ask for either of these two propositions at the end of four months will get a policy paid up for the amount of their interest in this $152,000.
The money having been divided among the policy-holders in that way is in the hands of the government and becomes a reserve that must be maintained and kept there for the benefit of these policy-holders, and I assume that when a man dies his share of that reserve is paid to his heirs. In that way only can this money be got from the government. I have endeavoured to explain this thing and we have on the floor of the House to-day the representative of the Insurance Department. His opinion is official, and I may say that I got iyy information from Mr. Fitzgerald who sqid that he has the money and will not give up a cent.


Samuel Barker: As I understand the hon. gentleman who has just spoken, there is no intention on the part of the company to withdraw the money from the government. I understand that the hon. gentleman wants to put on the statute-book a clear expression that they shall not withdraw the money. Under these circumstances it ought not to be difficult to put in a clause that is perfectly clear upon the point. The hon. gentleman tells us that they do not want the money, that it will not be withdrawn, that it cannot be. The hon. member for Montreal, St. James (Mr. Gervais) wants it put in black and white that it shall not be. Will the hon. gentleman be willing to put it in writing ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: If the amendment is carried providing for a thing that is already provided for in the Bill it will have the effect of killing the Bill.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: Not at all.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Yes. it will. It will have to be referred Back to the Senate in order that the Senate may concur in our amendment and before Saturday nigbt or Monday night there will be no opportunity of discussing the matter further and the Bill will be defeated. That is why we do not want the amendment. I have my information from Mr. Fitzgerald, and if you are not satisfied with what I am telling you, I cannot 2~6i
help it, but his assurance to me is that he will not give up this money.


Samuel Barker: Will the hon. Minister of Finance say whether that is so 7


William Stevens Fielding: The motion of my hon. friend from Montreal, St. James (Mr. Gervais) is based upon an error as to the policy that is now followed in the Insurance Department. He wants to provide that this deposit shall not be withdrawn except for the purpose of paying death claims. My hon. friend is under the impression that the deposit is now available for the payment of death claims, which is a mistake. We cannot pay out one penny of it for death claims. If a company fails to respond to its obligations it goes into bankruptcy and the courts distribute the money. The Department of Insurance cannot pay out a penny in satisfaction of death claims. We hold the deposit as security in the event of trouble, proceedings are taken in the court and the court determines what shall be the distribution of the money.


Samuel Barker: You say that the deposit cannot be paid out for death claims. Can it be paid out for any purpose ?


William Stevens Fielding: It cannot be under the existing law. If under the Bill, a large volume of this assessment business is transferred into what we may call straight life insurance, then a portion of the deposit may be made available to protect Insurance in that new form, but in no case will the money be withdrawn from the treasury.


John Graham Haggart: This Act does not empower you to do that 7


William Stevens Fielding: No.


John Graham Haggart: Then how is it paid out ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me to be very much like a voluntary liquidation. The Receiver General can only use that money to reinsure in the event of the company winding up. This company is practically winding up and the Bill provides that each policy-holder :
-shall be entitled to a dividend of his proportionate share of the sum of $152;000 in the hands of the Receiver General of Canada applicable to the assessment policies of the company in Can- , ada at the date of the said license.
So that each one will be entitled to a share of it. As to whether the Receiver 'General ha,'s the right to apply it in that way or not may be another question, but I take it that the justification for saying that it Would be paid out in that way is the fact that there is a voluntary liquidation of the company consented to by the policy-holders as well as by the company.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: , May I be permitted to put a question to my hon. friend the Min-

ister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) ? I would like to join issue with his statement. The purpose of my amendment is not to give power to the Minister of Finance to reduce the amount of the deposit as it stands to-day, but the purpose and the only aim of my amendment is that the deposit, which is in the hands of the hon. Minister of Finance in his capacity as Receiver General, shall stand as a legal deposit to be paid according to the enactment of parliament or to the decrees of our court. That is the aim of the amendment.


William Stevens Fielding: I have taken very little part in the discussion for the reason that I have a personal interest in this matter and I am disqualified from voting. I am one of these policy-holders, and I thought that the proper course for me to pursue was to confine myself to seeing that the Insurance Department should examine the question and give it such supervision as would be a guarantee that the matter is in good shape. That has been done. All That the public interest requires in this matter, I am assured by the superintendent of insurance has been done, and I think the committee may safely accept this proposition.


James Clancy: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Finance a question. He has told the committee that there is no doubt whatever that the accumulation that now remains in the hands of the Receiver General will have to be held in future for the protection of the policy-holders. Will this Act tiansfer any portion of that to the new policy-holders or will the accumulation go entirely to the policy-holders who have contributed up to this time ? It belongs to those who are policy-holders now and if it is held it ought to be held in such a way as to protect the rights of those who are now policy-holders.


William Stevens Fielding: As the new business increases they must make a deposit in proportion to the extent of that business and this would in no way affect the security of the present policy-holders. This sum will remain for the benefit of the existing policyholders but as they pass from one class to another it will become available for the protection of the new class as far as it will go.


Mr. WARD.: I notice that in the latter part of section 5 the Bill says :
Provided that the deposits of the company with the Receiver General of Canada shall not be reduced below the amount at the date of the said license so long as the company is undertaking in Canada new contracts of insurance.
What I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Finance is this :	Supposing the
company decide not to make new contracts of insurance at all, will the company have Mr. GERVAIS.
the right to demand from the Receiver General of Canada any portion of that amount at present in his hands? A deposit has been made from time to time as business has been done requiring that deposit ; as the business increased the deposit had to increase. If they cease to do business it) Canada, and if the deposit already made should be more than necessary for the amount of business that they are carrying, would they be justified in asking the government to give them the balance out of the treasury of Canada ?


William Stevens Fielding: There would be no ob ligation on the government to deliver up any portion of it. That would be a matter of discretion. The government in such cases determine whatever seems to be a reasonable deposit for the purpose and there would be no right on the part of the company to demand the return of a single dollar.


John Graham Haggart: If I understand the Bill rightly, there was a deposit made. Was it for the general purposes of the company or for mutual or straight line insurance ?


William Stevens Fielding: Not at the same time. While they were doing assessment business they were not doing straight line business, and wljen they began to do straight line business they had to suspend the assessments. The deposit remained for the assessment of the policy-holders and the new business had to find a new deposit.


John Graham Haggart: Thus the deposit was made for the purpose of securing those who were mutually assessed. /What it is proposed to do is to transfer that deposit for another purpose.


William Stevens Fielding: If the parties elect to have their policies transferred into the new class their interest is protected there as it must be in the old class, because there remains their proportion of the old deposit.


John Graham Haggart: They have a certain proportion ?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Suppose they remain in the old class ?


William Stevens Fielding: Then the deposit remains just as it was. You do not transfer their proportion at all ; it remains there.


Frank Oliver: This question was asked the hon. Minister of Finance : In case that the policies now carried by this company do not require the amount of the present deposit, would it be possible for the company to be returned the difference between what they would be required to carry and what they do carry now ? I understood the hon. Minister of Finance to say that this matter was in the discretion of the government. That is exactly what is contemplated by the wording of clause 5 and that is exactly

what we moved, the amendment to prevent. We ask in all fairness for the protection of cur rights that the House shall grant that concession. The wording of the amendment is clear. If this deposit is to he a real security we want to be sure it will be there when it is wanted. We have been unsuccessful in preventing; the proposition to decrease the policy or to increase the premium, and as a last resort we now ask that the security be not diminished. The hon. member (Mr. Heyd) says this Bill must pass without amendment. In the name of common sense, is this House to be approached with a proposition of that kind ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: You heard my reasons.


Frank Oliver: It does not make any difference what the reasons were ; the reasons are bad. This House has sat for months and months without any serious reason, and in this matter involving millions of the money of our people I am willing, and others are willing, to sit another day to afford security to these people. It is the worst charge that can be brought against the Bill that it is brought into the House at a period of the session when it cannot receive any consideration or amendment.
Amendment (Mr. Gervais) negatived and section agreed to.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Whether a number of the policies lapse in the future or not, this company cannot for any reason reduce the deposit with the government.


William Stevens Fielding: There will be no reduction of deposit.
On the question for the adoption of the preamble,


David Henderson: I do not rise to oppose the Bill. From the discussion and from what I have heard, otherwise. I am under the impression that the policy-holders will be in a better position after the passing of this Bill. However, I call attention to the fact that an important principle has been set up in the introduction of this Bill. I do not understand that the Bill originated in the ordinary way on a petition from this company, but that it had its origin with the policy-holders ; the interested parties, I say interested parties, because being an assessment company, the policy-holders are really the interested parties. Insurance companies, like banks, are the creation of parliament and it is proper that parliament should exercise control over them and whether they be assessment companies or stock companies compel them to live up to the contract they have entered into with their policy-holders. Speaking of this principle which is the basis of this Bill, I may say
I believed they were asking for powers they should not be given, and I insisted that the policy-holders should exercise greater control over the affairs of that company than had hitherto been accorded to them. I asked the Banking and Commerce Committee to increase the powers of the policy-holders with a view to enable them to protect themselves, they being the parties having the largest interest in the operations of the company. As we are all aware, the reserve stock of the Canadian Life Company at the present time consists of $27,000,000 ; $1,000,000 of which is contributed by the shareholders, and the balance is the money of the policy-holders, i asked that the policy-holders should be represented on the board by the same number of directors as are the shareholders, and that no shareholder should be eligible as a policy-holder director. My intention was to give the policy-holders power to take care of their own rights and prevent an improper use being made of the money of that company. I shall state briefly the reasons why I took that course. In 1900, at the time of the last quinquennial division of profits, a very considerable sum of money was transferred from the accrued profits, ninety per cent of which belonged to the policy-holders, and handed over to the capital stock of the company for the purpose of increasing the reserve and making a better showing for the shareholders ; practically for the purpose of increasing the value of the stock of the company at the expense of the policy-holders. It is well known to many of us that when applications are solicitated for insurance in the Canadian Life Company on what is known as the profit plan, the applicant is assured that 90 per cent of the entire profits of the company shall be divided amongst the participating policy-holders, and that the profit coming to the policy-holders, is their money just as much as the sum named in the policy. Consequently, if a large portion of this it taken away from that fund and applied to capital account the profit ac- i cruing to the policy-holders is very materially reduced, and can never come back to them again. I contend that it would be a proper thing if larger powers were taken by the parliament and the government of Canada with regard to controlling the whole operations of life insurance companies.
I believe that the Department of Insurance should not only have power to inquire as to whether the company holds sufficient reserves at all times, on whatever basis is prescribed by the government, whether on a of per cent, a 4 per cent or a 4J per cent valuation, and to insist on the company maintaining sufficient reserves to meet ail claims when they reasonably mature, but it should at the same time have power to inquire into the financial operations of the whether the funds
that a short time ago, I took strong grounds against a Bill that was introduced by the Canadian Life Insurance Company, because * company, and ascertain

of the company are being used for the purposes for which they are intended, and for which the policy-holder was given to understand they would be used at the time he made his application for insurance. I think the discussion to-day will be of considerable value both to the policy-holders in all companies in this country, and to the insurance companies themselves, because it will draw attention to the fact that parliament is going to assert its right to investigate the operations of insurance companies and to see that the rights and interests of policyholders are preserved. Hitherto we have had the idea that no amendment could be made to a private Bill such as an insurance Bill unless it emanated from the company itself on a petition ; but here is a Bill that came before us, not at the instigation of the company, but at the instigation of the policyholders, and parliament has consented to deal with the matter. I think that insurance companies, watching the discussion that h is taken place recently in parliament, will perhaps be more guarded in the future, seeing that their entire operations can be brought under review by the parliament of Canada without their consent or request. Hence 1 say that I believe that good will come out of this discussion, apart altogether from the company with which we are now dealing.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



BOUNTIES ON LEAD.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend section 2 of chapter 31 of the statutes of 1903, intituled : ' An Act to provide for the payment of Bounties on Lead contained in Lead-bearing Ores Mined in Canada,' by adding after the word ' Canada ' the words ' and any balance of the sum of five hundred thousand dollars unexpended at the close of any fiscal year may be carried forward to the next succeeding year, and payments may be made therefrom in such succeeding year of any portion of the 10 per cent hereinbefore provided for on such ores, and such only as had been delivered for smelting in Canada, but which had not been actually smelted until after the close of the year within which delivered.
Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: The object of the resolution is this. By the Act of last session all parties mining in British Columbia were entitled to obtain GO per cent on the ore actually mined and delivered at the smelter ; but 40 per cent was to be retained until the ore had been actually smelted within the year last past. It lias turned out that a considerable quantity of this ore has been held over, not owing to the fault of the miners, but I understand owing to the inability of the smelter ; and unless we make the provision now proposed, it would be impossible under the statute to pay these people the remaining 40 per cent of the Mr. HENDERSON.
bounties. We propose to carry forward the balance of the $500,000 to such an extent as will enable us to pay the miners the 40 per cent that is held over.


David Henderson: Can the right lion, gentleman tell us how much was paid during the year ending the 30th of June last ?


Richard John Cartwright: 

Resolution reported, read the first and the second time and agreed to.
Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT moved leave to introduce Bill (No. 1G9) to amend the Act providing for the payment of bounties on lead contained in lead-bearing ores mined in Canada.
Motion agreed to, Bill read the first time and the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.



LAND TITLES ACT, 1894-AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 158) to amend the Land Titles Act of 1894-Mr. Sifton-read the second time and the House went into committee thereon.
On section 1, #
Clifford Sifton: This is for the purpose of removing a technical difficulty in the registration of mortgages under the Real Property Act in the Northwest Territories. At present, under the Torrens system which there prevails, a party who buys land from a railway company eannot register a mortgage upon it until he gets the actual deed from the company. Persons familiar with land transactions in that country know that it is quite customary and necessary for land to be dealt with often before a deed can be procured from the company. Often the purchase money is procured to pay the railway company for the land on the guaranty of a mortgage, but the mortgage cannot be registered until the deed is procured from the company and registered in the laud titles office. In the case of the Canadian Pacific Railway, the land grant trustee or other official may be in Europe or some place else which prevents him from signing the deed for months at' a time, which causes unnecessary and unavoidable delay in the issuing of deeds. This amendment will permit a mortgage to be registered when the commissioner of the railway company gives a certificate that the purchase money has been paid and that the person holding the certificate is entitled to the deed. The mortgage only becomes valid when the title is afterwards registered, but the transaction can be carried on.


David Henderson: Is the hon. gentleman making provision for the registration of a certificate so as to show there is a guaranty of title ?


Mr. SIFT OX.: The certificate is filed with the registrar and becomes part of the muniment of title. In addition there is a proviso that plans may also be registered. Through an oversight in the law, there is no express provision that plans may be registered. They have been filed in the office and entered in the register, but doubt has been expressed by lawyers whether that is legal and this is for the purpose of clearing up that doubt.


John Graham Haggart: With regard to plans registered, lias it an ex post facto effect ?


Clifford Sifton: No.


John Graham Haggart: Does that affect the status of the mortgage at all ? It only gives the right of registration.


Clifford Sifton: There is a form of mortgage under the Real Property Act, and you cannot register miscellaneous documents, but only the documents described in the Act.


John Graham Haggart: This is simply for the purpose of registration. Can a person mortgage a property of which he is not the owner ?


Clifford Sifton: No. If he could, we would not need this Act. You have a mortgage on a quarter section of land and bring it to the registrar. He finds out who the registered owner is. If the man who signs the mortgage is not the registered owner, the registrar will not register the mortgage. That is the reason we require this amendment. The railway company is the registered owner of the land. The person who brings the mortgage is not the registered owner and cannot register the mortgage. Consequently he cannot give security for the money he may have borrowed for the purpose of paying the railway company.


John Graham Haggart: Your amendment does not make the security any better than it was before, but simply enables it to be registered.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2,
Registration of charges created before issue of grant:
Subsection 2 of section 73 of the Land Titles Act, 1894, is repealed, and the following subsection is substituted therefor :-
2.	Provided that there may be filed in the office of the registrar any mortgage or other encumbrance created by any person rightfully in possession of land prior to the issue of the grant from the Crown or prior to the issue of the transfer from the Hudson's Bay Company or from any company entitled to a grant of such lands from the Crown or to which letters patent from the Crown for such mortgaged lands have already issued, if there is produced to and left with the registrar with the mortgage an affidavit made by the mortgagor in the form AA. in the schedule to this Act, and
also, in the case of lands mortgaged prior to the issue of transfer from the Hudson Bay Company or other company as1 aforesaid, a certificate from the land commissioner or other proper officer of the company that the purchase price of such mortgaged lands has been paid and that the mortgagor is entiued to a transfer in fee simple therefor from such company ; and the registrar shall, on registering the grant of lands so mortgaged, enter in the register and endorse upon the duplicate certificate of title, before issuing it, a memorandum of the mortgage or encumbrance ; and when so entered the mortgage or encumbrance shall be as valid as if made subsequent to the issue of the grant, or to the issue of the transfer from the Hudson Bay Company or from any company entitled to a grant of such lands from the Crown to which letters patent from the Crown for such lands may have issued, as the case may be ; and if more than one mortgage or encumbrance are filed they shall be registered in the order of time in which they have been filed in the said office.
John Graham Haggart: This only takes effect, I understand, where payment is made in full and the purchaser Is entitled to the deed ? Otherwise the effect would be very dangerous.


Clifford Sifton: That is right.


David Henderson: Why not allow a man to register a mortgage If he has paid only half the amount ? If he has the certificate that he has paid half he has an interest which he should be free to mortgage. He may find it necessary to do so that he imay raise means to improve his place and so make the money to pay off the balance. Of course the mortgage would only pledge his half interest. In the province of Ontario, there is no difficulty in a man mortgaging land, even though he is only the nominee of the Crown.


Clifford Sifton: In Ontario a man can register a mortgage whether he owns the land or not.


David Henderson: Certainly. We have more liberty in Ontario than the hon. gentleman (Air. Sifton) seems willing to allow the settlers of the Northwest.
Sir WI'LDIAM MTJLOCK. This system is established in some parts of Ontario.


David Henderson: Very true. But I do not think that alters the situation. I think a man should have the right to register a half interest as well as a whole interest. It might be the means of enabling him to carry on his farming operations and make money sufficient to pay the other half.


Air. CAMPBELL.: 'Carried.


David Henderson: The hon. member for West York (Air. Campbell) need not be in such a hurry. This is an important matter for the settlers of the Northwest. It seems to me they are entitled to privileges which are not secured to them under the minister's Bill. Surely, if a man pays half the price

of a property he has the right to mortgage his interest. Why should he he handicapped by a law which provides that until he has paid all the money he cannot use the property as a security. It might be twenty years before he could raise the money necessary to pay the last of the purchase inoney.
Mr. S1FTON. The principle of the Torrens system is that the entire title must pass when there is transmission. If you violate that principle-you abolish the system. Where you have the old system of registration a man may have a remote equitable interest in a piece of property by making an agreement for the purchase of an undivided tenth interest and register a mortgage on that, even if he has not paid more than a dollar, or, indeed, if he has not paid anything. The legal validity of the mortgage may be questioned later on, but the registration is valid. The principle of the Torrens system, on the contrary, is that nothing can be registered except a document in a specified form signed by the owner. The owner holds a certificate backed by the guarantee of the government that he is the owner in fee simple of the land. So, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Henderson) will see that the registration of a mortgage or transfer which does not convey the complete title of the property is impossible under that system. We are not violating the principle of the Torrens system at all by what we are doing. What we are doing is this : When the purchaser of, let us say, a quarter section from the Canadian Pacific Railway goes to register a mortgage, even though he has paid his purchase money in full, under the present law he cannot register it, because the law says that until you are the registered owner you cannot register a mortgage. If he had the deed from the railway company, that would' be evidence that he could present to the registrar that he was the owner, and the registrar would issue the certificate of ownership and register the mortgage. We substitute a certificate from the company's land commissioner for the deed to be presented as evidence to the registrar to show that he is the owner of the land and entitled to register the mortgage.


David Henderson: But cannot the purchaser of a half interest in a lot of land in the Northwest take his deed to the registrar and have it registered for the half interest ?


Clifford Sifton: Yes.


David Henderson: Very well, if he goes with a certificate and show's that he is the owner of a half interest


Clifford Sifton: If he buys an undivided half interest in a quarter section of land from the Canadian Pacific Railway-a very unsual transaction-and takes a receipt in full for the undivided half interest to the Mr. HENDERSON
registrar, he will be registered as the owner of the undivided half interest and can register a mortgage on it. But he cannot register the mortgage when he has a receipt for half the purchase money for an entire interest in the property.


John Graham Haggart: This presupposes that it is very easy to get a certificate for the full payment but difficult to get a deed. Is there any difficulty in getting a -deed, on full payment, from the Canadian Pacific Railway or from the Hudson Bay Company ?
Mr. SIE'TON. Sometimes they come quickly, and sometimes, through the absence pf some officer or some other cause there may be delay. I do not know that there is any delay that could be considered exceptional in the case of a company doing such a vast business as the Canadian Pacific Railway. But a wmek's delay, or a month's delay or, still more two months' delay, which sometimes occurs, may be very embarrassing to a private individual of small means who wishes to deal with his property.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.	.



CUSTOMS ACT-AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
That it is expedient to provide that the Customs Act be amended as follows :-
1.	That the following provisions be added to section 2 of the said Act
ts.) The expression ' duty ' or ' duties ' includes ' special duty ' and ' special duties.'
2.	That section 7 of the said Act shall be amended by striking out the following words :- ' and the additional sum, if any, payable under the next following section of this Act.'
3.	That section 8 of the said Act, as amended by section 4 of chapter 14 of the statutes of 1888, be repealed.
4.	That the following subsection be added to section 62 of the said Act, as amended by section 5 of chapter 15 of the statutes of 1889
' Provided, however, in respect of goods shipped to Canada on consignment, but which have been sold by the exporter to persons in. Canada prior to their importation into Canada, that the duties shall not be assessed in any case upon an amount less than the invoice value to the Canadian purchaser ; exclusive of all charges therein, after shipment from the place whence exported directly to Canada.
' When articles of the same material, or of a similar kind but of a different quality, are found in the same package, charged or invoiced at an average price, it shall be the duty of the appraisers to adopt the value of the best article contained in such package as the average value of the whole ; and duty shall be levied thereon accordingly.
* (2.) The Board of Customs may review the decision of any appraiser or collector of customs as to the principal markets of the country, or as to the fair market value of goods for duty purposes. The decision of the Board of Customs in regard to such principal markets, and value of goods for duty purposes in any case or class of cases, shall, when ap-

proved by the Minister of Customs, he final and conclusive, except as otherwise provided in the Customs Act.'-Mr. Paterson.
Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs).: Mr. 'Chairman, the object of the resolution is to have some clauses inserted in the Customs Act which will be found necessary under the working of the tariff resolutions introduced this session. The first change is to include the words ' special duty.' As it is proposed under the tariff resolutions that were submitted to the House that there should be a special duty where goods were sold at a price lower than that at which they are sold in the country of production, which is called a special duty, it is necessary to bring that term within the meaning of ' duties ' in the Act. It is also intended to strike out section 8 of the Customs Act, which is not requisite to the enactment of a special duty. Then there is an amendment to section 62, the first provision of which has reference to goods sent on consignment to separate individuals throughout the country, and where a number are sent together to one party. It is provided that the prices at which they are sold to the individual purchasers in the different towns shall be the value for duty and not the pro forma invoice they might send to their agent. The second is introduced because sometimes goods are put in the same package which are not of the same quality. We provide here that in cases of that kind the value for duty shall be the value of the best article in the mixed package. The other is a provision necessary in order to secure uniformity in the classes of the customs.
Resolution reported, read the first and second times, and agreed to.
Mr. PATERSON moved for leave to intro duce Bill (No. 170) to amend the Customs Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, Bill read the first and second times, considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.

['We will proceed with the resolutions respecting railway subsidies, the tariff resolutions and supply. As to the particular order I am not quite sure but the [DOT]railway resolutions will probably be taken up first.\n(Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.59 p.m.', 'Monday, August 8, 1904.']
Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


Henry Alfred Ward: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair, I desire to bring to the attention of the House some matters in connection with the proposed completion of the Trent Valley canal. I am aware that some hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House do not regard this project in a very friendly light, but I think that if they, would devote that
amount of consideration to it, that, I think its importance demands, a different conclusion would be come to. I do not wish to say that the judgment of these hon. gentlemen is not correct, but I do say that considering the large amount of money that has already been expended on this undertaking it would bq well for the representatives of the people to weigh the matter very carefully and to consider whether it would not be wise to carry out the system in its entirety. When it is realized that about four and a half millions of money have already been expended on this work, it seems to me that it would be well to weigh the matter very carefully before deciding upon the advisability or otherwise of completing it. I am quite aware that the difficulty in deciding upon the southern outlet of the canal has had something to do with the hesitation of the government in regard to going on with the work. As the canal stands at present it is only useful for local traffic. The increasing of the depth of the water on the mitre sill to eight feet two inches is now under consideration and I believe has almost been decided upon by the government and there is no doubt in my mind that if that is carried out the canal will be able to take care of a good deai of the grain traffic from the west. Some months ago the Transportation Commission, of which Mr. John Bertram is chairman,, met at Peterborough, for the purpose of taking evidence on this very and although I do not propose to weary the House with any facts or figures which came out at that sitting of the Transportation Commission I can assure hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House, that the evidence then brought before the commissioners had the effect of convincing them that the completion of the canal would be in the interests of the country. In this connection 1 desire to read a few words uttered by Mr. James J. Hill, who is we l known, I think, to hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House as the president of one of the greatest railway corporations probably in the world. He, at Minneapolis, recently made the following remark :
Canada possesses three times as much arable land as the United States, that in ten years the Dominion would raise enough grain to supply the British market, and henceforth the United States farm products must seek new markets in the Orient.' While the last century was the century of the United States, this century would he the one for Canada.
These are words uttered by a gentleman who knew what he was talking about, and if we had a large amount of grain coming from the Northwest Territories there is no doubt that the Trent Valley canal would be of use as an avenue of transport for that traffic.	.
Now it is well known that the Erie canal in the United States going through Central

New York lias been a large factor in the traffic transportation of that state. We know as well that the government of New York state are about to spend one hundred million dollars in increasing the depth of the Brie canal from four feet to ten feet, allowing barges of a thousand tons burden to pass through the centre of the state. If that canal has been an important factor in the transportation of the 13 nited States it seems to me that the Trent Valley canal will in time become just as important a factor in the controlling of railway rates and in the establishing of manufactories all along the line of the canal through the central part of Ontario. I wish to point out in regard to that very Erie canal the course that was pursued by the government of New York state when it was decided to spend so large an amount of money upon it; and in reading a short extract from the report of the engineer I desire to call attention to the fact that the Trent canal will most likely be just as important to the Dominion of Canada as the Erie canal has been to the state of New York ; and that a care should be exercised as to the southern outlet which I am sorry to say it has not had so far, as the reports of engineers show. The engineer in charge of the Erie canal was the engineer of the state of New York and in making his report he used the following language :



[Stage Direction]
State of New York,
Office of the State Engineer and Surveyor, Albany, February 12, 1901. Hon. Beniamin B. Odell, ir.,
Governor of the State of New York.
Sir,-Having completed the surveys, plans and estimates for improving the Erie canal, the Champlain canal and the Oswego canal as directed by chapter 411 of the laws of 1900, I have the honour to report as follows-:-
Chapter 411 of the laws of 1900 became a law April 12, and I at once commenced the organization of the proper force to carry the law into effect by appointing as consulting engineers Mr. Trevor c. Leutze, of Albany, N.Y. (a division engineer of the eastern division New York State canals), and Mr. David J. Howell, of Washington, D.C. (who had charge of the work on the eastern division of the Mohawk and Oswego line of the deep waterways surveys), with Mr. Howell as engineer in charge. The necessary instructions for the survey party were at once formulated and submitted to the following board of engineers :-Mr. George S. Green, of New York city ; Mr. George Y. Wisner, of Detroit, Mich.; Mr. Edward P. North, New York City ; Professor Palmer' C. Ricketts, Troy, N.Y.; and Mr. J. Nelson Tubbs, Rochester, N.Y.
I simply mention that to show that when a work of such magnitude was to be constructed in the state of New York, every Mr. WARD.
care was taken to have a staff of 'engineers of the highest ability to decide as to its features. I do not propose to discuss the advisability of building the Trent canal, but I do wish to speak of the course which has been pursued by the government so far, with regard to getting the reports of engineers as to whether the outlet should be at Port Hope or at Trenton. Before referring to the engineers' reports of more recent date, I desire to read an extract from one which Mr. R. A. Maingy made to Sir John Colborne in 1833. This was the first report as to the Port Hope outlet, and Mr. Maingy's remarks show that he believed it to be far superior to that which the government considers to be the proper route to adopt. Mr. Maingy says :
The ultimate success of any measure for facilitating the communication for Rice lake with Lake Ontario depends wholly upon its connection with an accessible harbour. The reporter considers that he has sufficiently informed himself of the localities, of the shores of Lake Ontario to be able to say with confidence that Port Hope from its position is not only the natural but the most accessible point of communication to the chain of navigable lakes by which this section of country is everywhere intersected. Its natural disadvantages are very few and capable of being improved ; the harbour when completed (it will be this summer) will be one of the safest and most convenient ones between this and Quebec, and capable of sheltering any number of ships that are likely at any time to be found in these waters. That the position of Port Hope is particularly favourable for the termination of such a work must appear evident to every impartial observer ; it is not only the shortest possible distance from Lake Ontario to Rice lake, possessing a safe and commodious harbour, but ils eminence possesses every facility for defence in case of war, and the communication from Lake Ontario to Rice lake up to Lake Simcoe can by this route be completed for a sum not greater than is necessary merely to open the navigation from the mouth of the Trent to the Rice lake. These are facts that cannot be refuted and which the reporter sincerely hopes will induce its being adopted and undertaken by the province in lieu of the roundabout and expensive route by the Trent.
That was the opinion of the first engineer who made a survey of that route. At a very much later date, we have the report of Mr. Rogers, of Peterborough, the resident engineer of the Trent Valley canal. Mr. Rogers makes two reports, one on the 31st of January, 1900, and the other on the 22nd of September of the same year. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the figures given by Mr. Rogers in order to show that they were not accurate, nor were they just to the Port Hope view of the case. Mr Rogers in dealing with the first great obstacle of the Port Hope route, namely, the height of land a short distance from Rice lake, estimated the clay excavation at 3,000,000 feet, while Mr. Maingy in his report gives it at only 1,310,-

215 feet. But more than that, Mr. Rogers in his second report of the same year raises the quantity of excavation, at the height of land, to 5,500,000, or 2.500,000 feet more than in his first repart. That was eminently unfair to the Port Hope route. Mr. Rogers in his first report greatly exceeded the estimate of Mr. Maingy, but in his second report he jumps his own estimate of the excavation from the 3,000,000 to 5,500,000 feet. One can hardly imagine how so great a discrepancy should occur with .regal'd to that one item of excavation, but at all events it furnishes a strong argument in favour of the contention that there should be a report by an independent engineer who would go over both routes 'and be impartial as between them. Again, with regal'd to the Frankford-Trenton section, Mr. Rogers does not adopt Mr. Rubidge's report on that section although he adopts it with regard to the section above. In his iestimate of the cost of the Frankford-Trenton section, Mr. Rogers takes off $750,000 in order to make the estimate for the construction of the Trenton route so much less. In passing, I may say that Mr. McLeod in his report, states that Mr. Rogers could not possibly have intended that report as a complete one, because he left out quite a number of items which should be included in that particular section. Mr. McLeod's says :

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In reference to the Trenton-Frankford estimate made by Mr. Rogers, I don't think he could have intended it for a complete estimate of the whole cost of the section, because he has apparently left out the cost of cement, for concretes, also bridge superstructures, and the usually large item for contingencies.
Again, Mr. Rogers, in his report specifies two hydraulic locks, costing $950,000, on the Port Hope route, and not on the oth jr route. Mr. Rogers also estimates fourteen high level bridges on the Port Hope route costing $10,500 each, and for the Trenton route he estimates 13 high level bridges cost only $5,000 each. How the highway bridges on the Trenton route could be built for one half what they would cost on the Port Hope route is a matter ef mystery to me. Mr. Rogers makes no mention of the five railway crossings on the Trenton *route, nor of the necessity for diverting at considerable cost the Central Ontario Railway. Mr. Rogers also provides in his estimate of the Port Hope route for two crossings of the Midland Railway, which we understand are not necessary at all, and this calls for an extra expenditure of $52,000 for bridges. I mention these items of Mr. Rogers' report to show that he has not been exactly fair to Port Hope, and I may add that according to Mr. McLeod, in one instance, he was over $800,000 astray. After Mr. Rogers made his report the Port Hope Association asked, and on
two occasions I asked from my place in the House, that there should be a survey made of both routes by an entirely independent engineer. I brought the matter up in the House last year early in the session, and the Hon. Mr. Blair, then Minister of Railways stated (' Hansard,' 1903, page 2629) :
I have already made the selection of the officer and he has instructions to make this survey that will cover not only the Port Hope route but the other, so that the judgment of the engineer who made the one survey may be applied to the other as well.
On March 17th of the present session I asked the following question and Hon. Mr. Emmerson, Minister of Railways and Canals, replied as reported in ' Hansard.'
Henry Alfred Ward: What instructions were given to Mr. McLeod, C.E., as to reporting upon the southern outlet of the Trent Valley canal ?
By whom were these instructions given ?


Mr. EMMERSON :: Mr. McLeod was instructed to go over the ground, to make an examination of the two routes, and report thereon his views as to which route was best, and make an estimate of the cost of each, viz.:-Port Hope and via Trenton.
The instructions were given by the chief engineer of the Department of Railways and Canals.
With regard to Mr. McLeod's report, which was issued late last session, I have this to say, that Mr. McLeod did not follow the instructions given by the minister to make accurate surveys of both of these routes. He simply made an examination of them, and based his report on the estimates and profiles and plans which were already in the Department of Railways and Canals, which had been filed by Mr. Rogers, and to which we had great objection. That was not what we asked for. Mr. McLeod spent a short time at Port Hope, and on leaving there he said he was going to Trenton to examine the bar-bo.ur there and to take soundings. The following are his two reports :-
Gilbert House,
Trenton, 15th May, 1903. Collingwood Schreiber, Esq., C.M.G.
Dear Sir,-I have walked over two lines for the Trent canal from Rice lake to Port Hope.
The most direct passes over a high ridge, which I found to be approximately 129 feet above Rice lake. The cutting would extend from Rice lake for three miles, and would be from 70 to 136 feet deep. The rest of the line to Port Hope would be comparatively easy.
The second line passes through a depression in the ridge, about two miles further west. The cutting would be about three miles long, and about 70 feet deep, at the highest point. Rest of the line is comparatively easy and would run into the first line about four miles from Port Hope.
I don't think it necessary to cross the Grand Trunk Railway on the way in, and the canal

would pass under the Grand Trunk viaduct at Port Hope.
Both lines would pass through some valuable farming lands, but the right of way through Port Hope would not be expensive.
The harbour of Port Hope is about a mile long, and from 7 to 14 feet deep, besides an inner harbour of considerable size.
I am going to take some soundings in the Trenton harbour this morning, and will then go over the Trent River valley to the level of Rice lake.
I am, yours truly,
(Sgd.) HENRY A. F. MACLEOD.
, Ottawa, 25th July, 1903. Collingwood Schreiber, Esq., C.M.G.
Re Trent canal, via Port Hope and Trenton.
Dear Sir,-I beg to report that in accordance with your instructions, I made an examination of the proposed routes for the Trent canal, from Rice lake to Port Hope, and also from Hastings to Trenton, during a portion of the month of May.
It was intended that I should make surveys of both routes, but this has not yet been done. The plans in the possession of the Department of Railways and Canals give sufficient information on which to make comparative estimates of the two routes.
On the 17th June, you directed me to make a comparative estimate of the two routes, which I have just completed. The estimates are based upon the plans in the department. Those for the Heeley's Falls and Hoard's creek sections, were made by Mr. Rubidge- in 1888, and those for the Trenton-Frankford section and the Rice lake and Port Hope, by Mr. Rogers in 1899 and 1900. All the estimates are made on the same scale, namely, that adopted for the Trenton-Frankford section, and exhibited to contractors. The width of the canal at the bottom is 50 feet, widened occasionally for passing places to 100 feet, with slopes of 2 to 1 in earth, and 1 to 1 in rock. Depth of water in reaches, 6 feet. The locks of concrete, 142 feet between the quoins, 33 feet wide at invert, with 8 feet 4 inches water on sills. The dams are all of concrete, with stop-logs.
I examined the entrance from Rice lake, of the Rice lake and Port Hope section, for several miles, and found that it is the best. The route adopted is practically the same as that surveyed in 1834 by Robert A. Maingy, mining and civil engineer. I also took trial levels over a portion of two other more direct routes, but found that they passed over ridges, with cuttings from 125 to 136 feet in the deepest parts and extending about three miles.
Rice lake to Port Hope.
There is no appearance of rock on this section, from Rice lake to within two miles of the harbour of Port Hope. I have therefore made no estimate for rock excavation on that portion. For the same reason I put the price of concrete at $7 and cribwork at $3, while on the Trent section, where limestone rock is everywhere abundant, concrete is put at $6 and cribwork at $3.50.
There is a cutting three miles long andi 68 feet deep at the summit, at the Rice lake entrance, which might prove difficult-to construct and maintain.
To facilitate comparison, I altered twTo hydraulic lift-locks proposed, on this section, Mr. WARD.
into two sets of ordinary locks, wTith three lifts each.
It is intended to construct a high level bridge for the Midland Railway, at the fourth lock and a swing bridge for the second crossing of the same railway in the Port Hope Electric Company's dam.
The canal will pass under the viaduct of the main line of the Grand Trunk at Port Hope. Swing bridges are provided for the existing roads, except in a few cases where they are diverted for short distances.
An estimate has been made for the right of way, including damage to buildings, &c., in Port Hope.
There is an artificial harbour at Port Hope about half a mile long, from 60| to 150 feet wide, and from 7 to 14 feet deep, with a basin adjoining" of considerable size. It would be difficult to enter this harbour from Lake Ontario in rough weather, particularly with canal craft.
A sum is included in the estimate for the purchase and improvement of this harbour.
Rice lake to Trenton.
A short distance above and below the lock at Hastings there is shoal water-an estimate has been made to remove the obstructions.
At Heeley's Falls, the canal is on the west bank of the Trent river, in cuttings through limestone rock, with water-tight walls of concrete, in part, and earth embankments.
The estimate Includes a new dam at the head of the rapids, and a swing bridge for the road.	.
This canal connects Rice lake with Crow bay.
Hoard's creek section extends from Crow bay, where it leaves the Trent river, till it reaches it again at Parcy reach, which is at the head of the still water formed by Chisholm's lock and dam.
The section leaves Crow bay at Middle Falls, which is about a mile above Campbellford.
It is almost entirely in limestone rock cutting, with earth embankments and a concrete wall at the upper entrance.
A dam is provided for at Middle Falls, also swing bridges for the roads, and for the Grand Junction Railway, near Hoard's station.
From Chisholm's lock to Trenton, still water is formed by a succession of dams to be constructed across the Trent river.
At Chisholm's lock an estimate has been made for partially rebuilding the lock, and for building a new dam across the river.
The estimate also includes swing bridges for the Ontario Central Railway, and the highway bridge across the Trent river.
From Frankford to Trenton, the estimate has been made in accordance with the plans exhibited for contract. It is entirely in limestone rock. Provision is made for the dams, for alterations to the highway bridges at Frankford and Glen Miller, and for high level bridges for the Grand Trunk double track, the Gilmour siding, and highway bridge at Trenton.
The Trenton entrance to the canal is large and ample, an estimate is included for piers.
I sounded the approach to Trenton harbour, Bay of Quintd, in the channel for about four miles, to the last buoy off ' Nigger Island ' and found that there" was over 12 feet of water, the level of the bay being about 3 feet above low water.

Comparison of routes.
From the examination made, it would appear that there is little difference in the cost of either route ; the estimates show a difference of $144,537 in favour of the Port Hope route.
The difficulty of navigating Lake Ontario with canal boats, in Stormy weather, is a serious objection to the Port Hope route.
The material for canal construction is better on the Trenton route, and the deep cutting on the Port Hope section is avoided by adopting the river route.
The diversion of water from its natural courses, would be a source of great expense to the government, complaints were made that the water sometimes falls very low in the Trent river.
The largest public benefit would be obtained by constructing the canal through or near the towns of Hastings, Campbellford, Frankford and Trenton, where there are now large mills and factories.
A very large amount of water-power would be more available at the various dams on the Trent river than on the Port Hope route, and would be a valuable asset for the government.
The harbour at Trenton is much larger, and superior to that of Port Hope, and terminates in the inland waters of the Bay of Quints.
For the above reasons I consider that the Trenton route is the most suitable for the canal, I am yours truly,
(Sgd.) HENRY A. F. MACLEOD,
M. Inst. C.E.
It will be observed that at the end of his report of the 15th of May, 1903, Mr. McLeod said :
I am go#ig to take some soundings in the Trenton harbour this morning, and Will then go over the Trent river valley to the level of Rice lake.
In his report from Ottawa of the 25th ot July, 1903, he said :
It was intended that I should make surveys of both routes, but this has not yet been done. The plans in the possession of the Department of Railways and Canals give sufficient information on which to make comparative estimates of the two routes. On the 17th of June you directed me to make a comparative estimate of the two routes, which I have just completed.
The instructions given by the minister to Mr, McLeod were to make an accurate and complete survey of the two routes ; but the later instructions given by the deputy minister after Mr. Blair had retired from the position of Minister of Railways and Canals, were that he should merely make an examination of the routes and base his report on the profiles and plans which were already in existence in the department.
In another portion of this report he says that along the Trent river route the excavation is almost entirely in rock. For instance :
At Heeley's Falls the canal is on the west bank of the Trent river, in cuttings through limestone rock, with water-tight walls of concrete, in part, and earth embankment.
Of the next section he says :
The section leaves Crow Bay at Middle Falls, which is a mile above Campbellford. It is almost entirely in limestone rock cutting, with earth embankments and concrete wall at the upper entrance.
Of the third section he says :
From Frankford to Trenton the estimate has been made in accordance with the plans exhibited for contract. It is entirely in limestone rock.
Mr. McLeod estimates the cost of the canal by way of Port Hope at $4,918,079, and the cost by way of Trenton at a trifle over $5,000,000. What I complain of is that he says in one portion of his report that he has provided for an 8-foot 2-inch canal, while he has really only provided for 6 feet in the reaches. When you consider that there are 30 miles of reaches in the River Trent and about 9 miles in the canal proper, you can imagine what an amount of rock cutting there would be, in view of the fact that the three sections mentioned are entirely through limestone. Wihat it would cost to deepen 39 miles of reaches from 6 feet to 8 feet 4 inches could only be estimated by a thoroughly competent engineer who understands the subject. I believe that for an 8-foot 2-inch canal the reaches should be made even deeper than that. Owing to the current of the river, they should be made at least a foot deeper. That is the one important item which has not been estimated by Mr. McLeod at all. Another curiou/S omission from his report is any estimate for drowned lands. It is well known that Chisholm's dam on the River Trent has * been raised at least 2 feet. There are already drowned lands there to the extent of some 30,000 acres, and it is the general impression that at least 15,000 acres more will be drowned by the raising of that dam ; but there is not a dollar estimated in Mr. McLeod's report on this account.
Mr. Rogers in his report says that the Trenton harbour is of great depth ; but there is not a sounding of that harbour given, though Mr. McLeod stated in his report that he was going to take, and perhaps did take, some soundings there. Soundings of Port Hope harbour are, of course, given, and Mr. McLeod ,did take some soundings in the Bay of Quints at 'the approach to the Trenton harbour, where he found an ample depth of water ; but if he took any soundings in Trenton harbour, they do not appear in his report, and, I think, for a very good reason. According to the Trenton ' Courier,' a complaint was made a few years ago that there was a depth of from only 6 feet to 7 in that harbour ; and, as I understand that it has a rock bottom, there would have to be a large expenditure of money to make it of sufficient depth to be of any use to a canal 8 feet 2 inches in depth. That is another omission in Mr. COMMONS
McLeod's report. I am quite sure that these three Items-the deepening of 39 miles of reaches in the River Trent, the drowned lands about Chisholm's dam, and the deepening of the harbour of Trenton-would add very largely to the cost of the construction of the canal by way of the River Trent.
The main argument against the adoption of the Port Hope route, which has been brought forward by those who are in favour of the other, is that there is a stretch >f water between Port Hope and the Murray canal or Presqu'Ile point of about twenty-six to twenty-eight miles. With regard to that, I desire to read a short petition signed by the captains and vessel owners and shippers navigating all the way from Kingston to Port Hope, concerning that very point. The petition is as follows :
We, the undersigned captains, vessel owners and shippers would respectfully submit the following facts, of which we have personal knowledge, in regard to the navigation of Lake Ontario between Port Hope and Kingston :
1.	Owing to the protected nature of the lake between Port Hope and Presqu' lie,-a dis-ance of about twenty-eight miles-we do not consider the danger, or possible delay from storms, as serious, because in case of strong easterly winds there is not more than fifteen miles, and in the case of south-easterly winds about twenty miles, of exposed water ; whilst if .the winds were in the west, boats can make passage from Port Hope to Presqu' lie without difficulty. In our opinion the opening between Amherst Island and Pour Mile Point, west of Kingston, a distance of five or six miles, to which traffic via Trenton would be exposed, is as liable to cause detention ; but as the signal system service gives warning five hours ahead of the storm, neither stretch is dangerous, as vessels could easily find shelter.
2.	We are of the opinion that barges capable of carrying 25,000 bushels of grain must be built strong enough to make the run from Port Hope to the Murray canal. If barges sailing on the canal are to secure return cargoes at different ports on the lake (and this we would consider necessary, whether the outlet of the canal be at Port Hope or Trenton), then they should be standard river barges.
3.	Barges passing from Kingston to Toronto in the fall of the year, as a rule go by Murray canal and the north shore, In order to avoid strong westerly winds.
4.	Judging from barges we have seen towed on Lake Ontario for years, we think that with ordinary care the proposal to make Port Hope, with its excellent harbour, the outlet for the Trent canal, is perfectly feasible, and for many reasons preferable to Trenton.
5.	Considering the Importance of the local traffic of the canal, which is certain to find its way westward to Toronto and other points on Lake Ontario, and the return cargoes (coal, &c.), we believe that the Port Hope route, being much shorter, is better adapted as the southern outlet for this important waterway, because return cargoes from Ohio and New York ports could, by this route, be landed in Peterborough even quicker and at a less rate than cargoes from the same ports could be landed at Trenton. It is an indisputable fact,


Henry Alfred Ward: that the shorter the water-route the lower will be the freight rate.
W. T. Clarke, M. M., Port Hope, now in coal business.
Joseph Braund, Port Hope, M. M.
R. J. Edmunds, Port Hope, M. M., now in gas business.
William Manson, jr., Port Hope, master mariner.


Geo.   W.@: Robertson, Port Hope, master mariner.
J. J. Hadden, Port Hope, M. M., now retired.
Thomas Fox, Port Hope, M. M., now retired.
R. Henning, Port Hope, master mariner.
Jos. Philp, Port Hope, master mariner.
John Wright, Port Hope, master mariner.


Capt.   R.@: -Clarke, Port Hope, master mariner.


Capt.   J.@: Peacock, Port Hope, master mariner.


John J.: Jarrell, Port Hope, master mariner.
iQhas. R. Nixon, Port Hope, master mariner.


Capt.   J.@: Oliver, Kingston, master mariner.


Capt.   C.@: Daryaw, Kingston, master mari^r.
John Corkey, Kingston, master mariner
James Crosby, Kingston, master mariner.
James Oliver, Kingston, master mariner.
John Danday, Kingston, master mariner.
B.	Palmatier, Kingston, master mariner.
William Simons, Kingston, master mariner.
Alex. Anderson, Dickinson's Landing, master
mariner.
C.	E. Redfearn, Colborne, master mariner.
Jas. Redfearn, Lake-port, master mariner.
Geo. Williamson, Toronto, master mariner.
John Joyce, Toronto, master mariner.


Geo.   H.@: Brown, Lakeport, master mariner.
C. E. Wakely, Toronto, master mariner.
J. Cornwall, Brighton, master mariner.
John Williams, Toronto, master mariner.
Albert Stinson, Toronto, master mariner.
Noel Marshall, Toronto, president Standard Fuel Company.
P. Burns & Co., Toronto, coal and wood dealers.
R. E. Gibson, Toronto, president Conger Coal Company.
This is signed by thirty-live mariners from Port Hope to Kingston, men who have been on the lakes for years, some of whom of course are retired, but many of whom are now navigating Lake Ontario. I might also point out that from the information I have, the barges that would be necessary to navigate Lake Siincoe would be quite strong enough to navigate that portion of Lake Ontario. There is another strong argument which I desire to bring out in favour of Port Hope. The idea has long been in the minds of people that the canal finally would be built by way of Trenton, and consequently there have been attempts already made, and there are likely to be more attempts made, to exploit the government with regard to lands and water-powers all through that route to Trenton. Let me bring one instance to the attention Of the House, an instance of rather a flagrant character, it seems to me, and one that is likely to be attempted to be carried out on future occasions if the canal goes by the River Trent. Some years ago the Canadian Bank of Commerce, of which Senator Geo. A. Cox is president, was in the possession of

a water-power and an old mill at Nassau, between Lake Ontario and Peterborough. That property had been what is called a silent property for some years. It came from the Irwin estate to the Bank of Commerce, and although gentlemen on the other side of the House had never been very friendly to the Trent Valley canal, I propose to show that during almost tlfe lirst hours of their occupancy of the Treasury benches, they took into consideration a matter In connection with this very Trent Valley canal. I have here the Order in Council passed in September, 1896, two months after the general elections in June, 1896, by which the government agreed to take over this power from the Canadian Bank of Commerce.
Extract from a report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council approved by His Excellency on the 14th September, 1896 :
On a memorandum dated 2nd September, 1896, from the Minister of Railways and Canals representing that for the purposes of the construction of the Trent canal it has become necessary, either to build a new dam across ' the River Otonabee, at the village of Nassau in lot No. 6, concession eleven, township of Dower, or to utilize the existing dam which is connected with a saw-mill owned by the Canadian Bank of Commerce and that the acquisition of this existing dam for the purpose is considered to be the preferable course. The minister further represents that in order to such acquisition a draft agreement forwarded by the Department of Justice, and to which it sees no objection, has been drawn up as between the bank and the Crown, by which it is proposed to enable the government to take immediate possession, leaving the amount of compensation to be determined by expropriation proceedings if not otherwise settled by agreement between the parties concerned. The minister submits the said draft agreement and recommends that he be authorized to sign the same on behalf of the Crown. The committee submit the foregoing for Your Excellency's approval.
(Sgd.) JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
To the Honourable
The Minister of Railways and Canals.
Nothing apparently was done under this agreement or Order in Council until the end of the year 1900, another very suggestive year, the year of - the last general elections. Then the Order in Council and agreement were carried into effect by an indenture of which I will read portions to the House :
This indenture made in triplicate 7th February, 1900, in pursuance of an Act respecting short forms and conveyances, between the Canadian Bank of Commerce, the party of the first part, and Her Majesty the Queen, party of the second part.
After reciting the agreement it goes on to say :
And whereas by the said agreement the bank agreed to grant and convey to the government '
the site of the existing dam in the said agreement mentioned and the dam itself, and the government agreed to repair or rebuild the said dam so as to make it efficient and in perpetuity to maintain it at its then height in an efficient state of repair. And whereas other parts of the said agreement relate to the dam existing at the date thereof or to a dam built upon the same site. And whereas it has been found more convenient for the government to remove the old dam entirely and to build a new dam to the east thereof upon the site coloured pink and marked ' new dam ' on the inclosed plan. And whereas the bank has consented to this being done, and to convey to the government the site of the new dam', 'and the parties have agreed that the said new dam shall be substituted for the dam mentioned in said agreement. And whereas the consideration in money to be paid to the bank for the lands and rights- hereby granted to the government ; and for the rights granted by the bank to the government under said agreement, and the compensation in money to be paid to the bank in respect of any other matters for which it may be entitled to compensation from the government in connection with the said canal, and the construction and working thereof, including the claims mentioned in paragraph 5 of said agreement, have been agreed upon between the parties at the sum of twenty thousand dollars and certain interest thereon.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: For the dam ?


Henry Alfred Ward: For tbe site of the cmm and tbe right to use the water for the canal. $20,000 and certain interest thereon. That refers no doubt to interest from the time the first agreement was entered into until the year 1900, when the agreement was consummated.
That would mean nearly four years' interest on the $20,000.
Then it goes on to state that the government agree to build a new dam, to keep it up in perpetuity and to keep up the water the stated height for the benefit of the Bank of Commerce.
Now let us examine for a moment what the government acquired and what they gave for that dam. In the first place they paid $20,000 and about four years' interest. They agreed to build a new dam, which has since been built, and to keep it up in perpetuity. And further a covenant was entered into by the government that they would keep up the flow of water. I had better read that part :
Should the government desire to maintain the depth of water in said canal at eight feet two inches the said dam shall be so regulated by the stop-logs or otherwise, that the bank, its successors, assigns, lessees and other persons and corporations, claiming through or under it or them may have the full benefit of all surplus water from the full head of water, available from time to time.
That is, the government agree to keep the water at its present level and if they increased the depth of the canal to 8 feat 2 inches they were to increase the depth of the canal by stop-logs or otherwise, so that

the bank would not suffer in any way. In return for all this, what were the government to receive ? They were to have the site for a dam, which dam they in effect handed over to the Canadian Bank of Commerce, by agreeing to keep up the dam in perpetuity. They were to provide sufficient water to' run the canal, the surplus water to go to the Bank of Commerce.
What happened after that ? The Canadian Bank of Commerce, in the following year, that is on May 9th, 1901, gave a lease, "of what thel government had agreed to provide, to the Canadian General Electric Company for twenty years at a rental of $8,024 per year. So that the Canadian Bank of Commerce got a property that was not a going concern, and which had been lying idle for twenty years, taken over by this government, $20,000 in interest assumed for about four years, a new dam built for them, and an agreement of the government to keep it up in perpetuity, and in addition they bad a magnificent property left' which they rented to the Canadian General Electric Company for twenty years at $8,000 per year.
In the excerpt I have from the registry office here it says ' and the right of purchase.' That is the General Electric Company have the right to purchase that property. I have been informed by a gentleman who was concerned in drawing up these papers, who heard that I was going to bring this matter up in the House, that the $8,000 a year meant that at the end of twenty years the Canadian General Electric Company would own that property. I do not wish to do an injustice to the government. So, desiring to be perfectly fair, 1 mention this fact. But, even so, it seems to me that what the government gave the Canadian Bank of Commerce enabled them to sell what was a dead property for $160,000, or, it may be $100,000, calculating interest for twenty years, and $20,000 in addition. I mention that as a sample instance of what is going on in the construction of the Trent Valley canal and to show the value of the power.
I desire to give one or two figures. There is a fall in the river of 58,000 cubic feet per minute. By calculations of engineers on the Erie canal, that have been handed to me, it takes about 55 cubic feet per second to operate a canal-that is to work the locks- every fifteen minutes, and that is the utmost capacity of a canal. Now, 55 feet per second means 3,300 feet per minute which would be required for the operation of a canal if vessels were locked through every fifteen minutes. So, where there is a fall In the river of 58,000 cubic feet per minute, even if the Trent Valley canal locked a vessel through every fifteen minutes, which is the utmost capacity of a canal, only about one thirty-sixth part of the flow of water would be required in the user of the canal. But it is not likely that for a great many Mr. WARD.
vears to come, the Trent Valley canal will be locking a vessel through every fifteen minutes. Even if we take it at a vessel every half hour, this , means that only one seventy-second part of the water would be used for the purposes, of the canal. Therefore, 1 say, the Canadian Bank of Commerce made an excellent bargain with the government when the government retained only one thirty-sixth or one seventy-second part of the water and left the rest of the flow of the river and all that power for the Canadian Bank of Commerce.
Now I desire to say that the gentleman who spoke to me about these papers stated that the Canadian Electric Company stood in a very strong position with the government with regard to this very power. He said that there had already been a slight failure of water, that is in the flow of water which that conveyance binds the government to supply to the Canadian General Electric Company-to the Canadian Bank of Commerce and its assigns-and that the government would be required to spend a very large amount of money in the conservation of water in the upper lakes in order to keep that power up to the standard requred by this agreement. Hon. George A. Cox is the president of the Conservation Association of the town of Peterborough. I know, as a matter of fact, that deputations from that Conservation Association waited upon the government two years ago and interviewed Mr. Blair on this very question ; and Mr. Blair, as I am informed by one who was present, stated to these gentlemen : ' It is water-power you are after, gentlemen, not navigation.' Mr. Blair saw through what they were anxious to do with regard to that conservation, and he told them plainly that it was water-power and not navigation that they were after. In that connection I desire to read an extract from a Peterborough paper in which this very matter was discussed. Mr. R. R. Hall, who is a candidate, I believe, against my hon. friend from Peterborough (Mr. Kendry), in discussing this matter of approaching the government in regard to the conservation of water and the spending of some $300,000 there, said :
-that the deputation which went to Ottawa on this question found that both Mr. Mulock and Mr. Blair look upon the matter as being of local interest only.
, I congratulate my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Sir William Mulock) on taking that view of the matter.


William Mulock: Of what matter ?


Henry Alfred Ward: The matter I am reading about. This is about the deputation coming to Ottawa.


William Mulock: I am aware of that. But the hon. gentleman congratu-

bites me on taking a certain view of some matter. What matter does the hon. gentleman refer to ? Does he mean the construction of the canal ?


Henry Alfred Ward: Oh, no. I know what my hon. friend's views are on that point. It is the matter of the Peterborough people asking that $300,000 be spent in conservation of the water which is not required for the navigation of the River Otonabee. That is the matter I am speaking on. And my hon. friend, when this deputation came, agreed with Mr. Blair that it was of local interest only. Mr. Hall thought that the industrial features of the question should be left alone and an appeal made to the government in the interests of navigation. He desired that it should be concealed as far as possible from the government that the appeal was not for navigation so much as for the increase of those powers which are already in existence between Lakefield and Peterborough. My hon. friend will perhaps believe me when I tell him that if that amount of money were spent in the conservation of water in the back lakes, it would increase the capacity of these powers at least fifty per cent, and that is what the Peterborough people want the government to do. I do noi think that money should be spent on the conservation of water a long time in advance of the requirements of the canal unless we take the view of the hon. membei for Victoria (Mr. Hughes), whom I do not see in his seat this evening, and who said to me that he was in favour of that conservation of water provided these power owners were made to pay their share of the expense and the expense would be divided equally among those who would benefit. That is the view I take. I consider that not a dollar should be spent by the government on the conservation of water unless it should be required for the canal ; and in any event the .power owners who will benefit should certainly pay their share of the expense of raising the water in the back lakes. There is another matter which I desire to mention in this connection. The Ontario ' Gazette ' of January 2nd last contains a notice of the incorporation of the company.
These were the names given as forming the corporation :	David Gilmour, manufacturer,
Robert Weddell, company manager, both of the town of Trenton, Samuel Hume Blake, K.C., Ernest W. McNeill, Robert Gowans, sollieitors' clerks, all of the city of Toronto, and any others who have become subscribers to the memorandum of agreement of the company and their successors.
I might mention that 1 am now reading from the Port Hope ' Guide ', a good Liberal paper. That refers to the three gentlemen, Mr. Blake, Mr. McNeill, and Mr. Gowans.
The objects of the company as stated in the notice are briefly :	To acquire water privileges, lands, water-powers and other powers,
and to develop the same>
&c. The share capital of the company is $500,000 ,the head office of the company to be at Trenton, the provisional directors to he the above-named gentlemen.
It is public knowledge that the law firm of which three out of the five gentlemen abovenamed are the solicitors of the Bank of Commerce.
It is also known through public advertisement that the Gilmour Company, of Trenton, is making changes in the company. It is also a well-known fact that the Gilmour Company were the owners of the principal water-powers between Frankford and Trenton (a distance of about seven miles) most of which are as yet undeveloped. Should the canal be built by the Trenton outlet these water-powers would be developed at the expense of the government through the construction of a dam at each and every lock-a total of probably six dams as per canal superintending engineer's report (Mr. R. B. Rogers).
By that means this company, which is really the Bank of Commerce, has acquired water-powers on the River Trent, on which, according to the engineer's report, six dams are to be built by the government. And those six dams and the powers relating to them will be owned by this company ; and it is natural to suppose that if they have $20,000 for one power, they would be looking for about the same for the other six powers which they will own on the River Trent. One of the arguments in favour of the River Trent, mentioned by Mr. McLeod, is that the government would acquire a large amount of water-powers which they could rent out to private parties and from which they would derive a large revenue. But at the meeting of the Transportation Commission to which I have referred, Mr. Colborne, who is a well-known gentleman of Wakefield, the owner of the cement works there, said that the government would acquire about $200,000 a year from the rent of the water-powers on the River Trent, whereas Mr. Rogers, on the other hand, said there would only be a revenue of $5,000 from them, and that would be mostly between Lake Ontario and Peterborough. That shows a wide divergence of opinion, and the very fact that the Trent WaterPower Company has acquired all the waterpower between Frankford and Trenton shows very little prospect of the government acquiring any revenue from the water-powers on that river. I do not desire to detain the House at greater length, but wish 'to say that I think it offers a very strong argument in favour of Port Hope, that there are no water-powers of any considerable extent along that route which would have to be acquired by the government. I believe, from the reports of the engineers I have referred to, that the cost of the Port Hope route has been very largely exaggerated, and, on the other hand, that the cost of the Trenton route has been minimized, and that justice cannot be done to Port Hope,



or to the contentions of those who believe that that route is in the interests of the country, unless we obtain a report from a thoroughly competent engineer, who will not in any sense be partial or biased in favour of the one route or the other.


Mr. E. GUSS PORTER.: I am very pleased that the hon. member for East Durham (Mr. Ward) has seen fit, even at so late a stage, to bring this matter of the development of the Trent Valley water-way to the attention of parliament. This is a matter of very considerable importance to the people of Canada as a whole in assisting to solve the great question of transportation, and it is of very particular interest to a large section of the people of Ontario interested in the development of manufacturing industries, especially in the Midland district and those portions of the province of Ontario chiefly affected by the development of the immense powers of the Trent waterways. This is a matter which, in my humble judgment, calls for an immediate declaration of policy by the government, and not only a declaration of policy, but energetic action to carry out such policy as the government may see its way to adopt. The subject is one which has been discussed so much, not only in parliament but on the hustings, particularly at election time, that it has to a very large extent come to be regarded by the' people as, to use the words of all estimable writers, ' stale, flat and unprofitable.'
I venture the opinion that the public generally who are more particularly interested in this matter have not arrived at that conclusion on account of any lack of appreciation of the Importance, or of the benefits which may be derived by this country from the development of this waterway ; but if they have been induced to form that opinion it has been by reason of the inaction of the government of the day. Party exigencies and alternative pro positions have caused people to lose faith in the sincerity of the government of the present day in regard to this proposition and apathy and just indignation exist where, under the circumstances that should to-day prevail, there should be general enthusiasm. The time has arrived, Sir, when we have corns to what in other instances has been described as the parting of the ways. The time has arrived when the question of the development of the Trent water-way should be stripped entirely of political considerations and when the government should decide once and for all whether this water way shall be completed and how it shall be completed, or whether so far as this government is concerned, the work shall be entirely abandoned. A careful consideration of this project will force us to the couclu sion that to abandon the work would be nothing less than criminal, would be folly Mr. WARD.
to the point of criminality ; and I think the prompt, energetic and systematic construction of this canal would be of the greatest benefit to shippers, manufacturers and agriculturists and would furnish an impetus to the trade and commerce of this country alike to the advantage of this government and to the advantage of the country. Although this government cannot claim the credit of having inaugurated the scheme of improving this water-way it will not, in my opinion, detract from their credit or prove to be to their disadvantage to follow in this instance, as they have followed in several other instances, the policy inaugurated by the Conservative party in regard to many enterprises that have proved to be of benefit and advantage to the country. And, Sir, at the risk of giving this government the credit of carrying out this scheme. I venture to say here that I am willing as far as I can either by my voice or by my vote to give any assistance that may be given to the government in carrying out this scheme. 1 propose, Mr. Speaker, as briefly as I can, to present some of the reasons which appeal to me and which I think should appeal to and influence the government in carrying this enterprise to a successful conclusion. There are many facts in connection with this enterprise upon which all parties are agreed, not only the government of the day, but the opposition. While differences exist they are of a local or personal character which do not to my mind in any manner affect the principle involved in the question under discussion. These differences exist by reason of individual influence brought to bear upon the government in regard to this question, but I respectfully urge upon the government that they should serve the interests of the country as a whole rather than those of any individual, municipality, or corporation, which may be interested in this enterprise. So long ago as 1833 the British government recognized the importance of the development of the Trent water-way, not from a commercial standpoint. but from a strategical standpoint, and the reasons that existed, then exist to-day. In addition, to those reasons, as a result of the development of the country and of the keen competition that has been going on to control the trade not only of this country but the trade of the adjoining country, it lias been demonstrated that still greater benefits might be derived by the people of Canada from the development ol this water-way for commercial purposes than from its development from a strategical standpoint alone. I venture to thinls that no two opinions exist to-day that the advantages of water transportation are so great that there is no other power or influence that can operate against it under proper conditions. Sir Thomas Sliaughnessy, in a speech delivered before the Canadian Club at Toronto, on January 20, 1904. on the

question of traffic from the west to the Atlantic, said :
Water-ways are the key of our transportation. Wheat or flour or anything else in the matter of coarse products can be carried by water at one quarter of the cost from Fort William to Midland or to North Bay that it will cost to cfirry the same traffic for that five hundred miles over the railway. Now what sane man will ^ssert, with that enormous differ-tnce In cost- against rail transportation, that we should neglect our water-ways.
I cannot do better than read the words of * Sir Thomas Shaughnessy in that regard.
If we but look around to the neighbouring republic or to European countries, (and I am emphatically one of those who think we can learn by example) we will find convincing proofs of his views. The history of all the nations taking part in this mighty struggle for commercial supremacy, is a record of the increasing development and value of national water-ways.
France has 7,000 miles of internal navigation and the water traffic of that country has increased between the years 1S72 and 1897 by 140 per cent, whereas the rail traffic has increased but 75 per cent. Belgium has expended since 1860 upwards of $50,000,000 enlarging its canals. Germany has just [DOT]opened a new canal from Dartmund et Emb-den, a distance of 170 miles, which will carry barges very similar to those proposed for. the Trent water-way, namely, 230 feet long, 30 feet wide and 7-1 feet draft, and costing $5,000 each. Russia has expended $30,000,000 in five years and there are in that country 60,000 canal boats with crews numbering 300,000 men.
Vessels 200 feet long can traverse the whole country from the Caspian sea to St. Petersburg.
In the United States the vast improvements made by the railways in levelling their grades, straightening curves, increasing the size of locomotive and cars, with other improvements needless to mention, enabled them at last to complete successfully with the Erie canal which had been allowed to become antiquated in every particular. What was the result ? The railways of the United States obtained control of the trade.
The wise policy of the Canadian Conservative government in deepening and enlarging the St. Lawrence canals, supplied a new impetus and a new direction to western trade which flowed and will continue to flow along the line of least resistance, with the result that Canada has gained a large share of the trade which the port of New York has lost. The trade of the port of Montreal has increased immensely ; last year according to the Montreal harbour returns, the results were phenomenal.
Our astute neighbours to the south observed this quite as soon as we did and have taken immediate steps to improve their transportation routes for the pui-pose of. recovering the trade which has been diverted to Canada. So long as the Erie canal was able to compete with the railways in handling freight, just so long was the state of New York supreme in matters of commerce. It was the Erie canal that determined the rates not only between Buffalo and New York but Chicago and the sea-board with great profit to the farmers and producers of the west.
And to-day the Erie canal is being improved at an expense of $100,000,000. It is estimated by the Canal Improvement Committee (see Canal Improvement Text Book, page 102) that the enlargement of the Erie canal as now proposed, will reduce the cost of transportation through that canal to one-third the present figures. The Trent Valley water-way by reason of its superior advantages should be able to improve on this and thus remove for the present at lefist, all fear of successful competition by the Erie route. Our canal boats will carry 25,000 bushels against their 8,000 bushels, and the distance from Lake Superior is 727 miles shorter to Liverpool via Midland and Montreal than it is via New York, which shows conclusively our advantages by this development over our American neighbours.
These are potent reasons why this government should act with energy. We cannot shut our eyes to the fact that our American rivals have entered into a gigantic enterprise. not only for the purpose of serving the interest of that country, not only to prevent Canada from capturing any more of their carrying trade, but to recover that which they have already lost, as well as to acquire that originating in Canada ; and I fully believe that object will be attained unless we Canadians at once recognize our responsibilities and do what we can to avert such a misfortune.
To complete the Trent Valley water-way will, in my judgment, be one of the most important steps we can take in that direction. The greatest development of this country will in future be in the west, and the greater part of the carrying trade will necessarily originate there, and I think all will recognize the soundness of the business principle that will induce producers and shippers to transport their produce by the quickest and cheapest route. The advantages that will accrue to them in getting their produce to the markets of the world at the least possible cost and greatest saving of time will enable them to undersell their competitors and obtain the quickest 'and best returns.
The food material is in the west, the money in the east, and the important question is, by what means we shall exchange the one for the other with the best result. Goods for the wants of the farmers in the Northwest should be largely manufactured in Ontario, and to this end cheap transporta-

tion is necessary. This would also help the Canadian Northwest on goods imported via Montreal.
A glance at the history of the Trent Valley canal will show that already there has been expended on the development of this waterway about $4,000,000, upon which this country is paying to-day, and has been paying since it has been expended, 3 per cent interest, or about $120,000 per annum. Of the total 200 miles, the length of the canal, from the Georgian bay to the Bay of Quinte, 100 miles have already been completed, and only about 32 miles remain to be completed. The difference between what has been constructed and what remains to be constructed is made.up of navigable lakes and navigable rivers. No less than 25 locks have 'been consitrueted upon this waterway, among these one of the greatest, if not the greatest, lift-lock in the world. According to estimates, it wTill require only between $4,000,000 and $5,000,000 to complete the whole enterprise. I need only mention the fact to appeal to the judgment of any man. whether a member of this House or not, that unless this work is completed, all the work that has been done for the expenditure of $4,000,000 already incurred, and for the $120,000 that is being expended annually in paying interest upon that investment, is entirely lost. There has already been so much delay in proceeding with the enterprise that some of the works along the line of the canal have fallen into disrepair. For this delay, not only this government, but former governments have been responsible. The time has now arrived, however, when government should declare its policy, and declare it without equivocation, and should enter upon the carrying out of that policy in a most energetic manner. The importance of this enterprise is, perhaps, not very generally appreciated by the public ; and there may be some hon. members of this House who have not given it such consideration as to enable them properly to judge of its importance. Therefore, notwithstanding the late date to which this session has been prolonged, the importance of the subject is such that I need not apologize to this House for submitting to it the evidence of some of the best informed persons upon the subject, in order to enlighten the House and to lead it to a conclusion as to whether the enterprise Should be favoured or not. If you will permit me, iSir, I would like to read a statement made by iMr. J. Alexander Cul-verwell, of Peterborough, who has given the matter the most careful and thorough consideration :
The Trent Valley canal route is nature's short grain-carrying water-way between the north American upper lakes and Lake Ontario. It will also open up one thousand miles of shore line, chiefly composed of inland navigable lakes and rivers. It is shorter in distance by two hundred and fifty miles than by the Welland canal route between Sault Ste. Marie and Montreal, and in


Edward Guss Porter: augmented by the development of almost unlimited water-powers within its radius. The development of power at such a low rate as it can be supplied upon this canal, must in the natural order of things, induce the investment of capital, and the investment of capital means the creation of manufacturing industries, and the creation of manufacturing industries means the employment of labour, while the employment of labour means the consumption of the product of the farms and gardens. There are already a number of manufacturers alorig the line of this water-way who are using limited amounts of power, and these manufacturers desire and have for a considerable length of time expressed the desire not only to increase the power that they are using for their own purposes, but to secure a saleable commodity that they may supply to other smaller manufactures or industries within the radius of their operation. And, Sir, with the development of the power upon the Trent river that has already taken place, the town of Trenton is to-day not only supplying all the power that is required in the town of Trenton, but it is transmitting that power to Belleville, a distance of some twelve miles. It is supplying electric light there and power for running different industries at a price that is less than they can possibly obtain in Belleville from any other source.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the price per horse-power ?


Mr. PORTER  .@: They are supplying it in Belleville to one concern that I know of, at $13 per horse-power, and I am told by the same man who is receiving that power from the development on the Trent Valley canal at $13 that he formerly paid $23 per horsepower for power furnished him by steam. This revenue that is being derived from the water-power already developed would be very largely increased and I have no doubt, in fact I am informed by those who have given the matter careful study, that the price at which power is now being supplied in Belleville. $13, could be very materially decreased if the corporations who are interested in this matter along the line of the Trent Valley water-way, were allowed to develop the water-power that exists there. If I am correctly informed that cannot be done under existing circumstances. 1 am informed that the government some time ago expropriated all the lands along the line of that Trent water-way and all the water-power for the purposes of this canal, so that an individual or a corporation going in there and desiring-as one corporation that I know of, the Trent Electric and Water Company, desires-to develop greater water-power would not be able to do that without the sanction of the government. We can all readily see that it would not be the policy of the government, if it has in contem-Mr. PORTER.
plation the completion of this canal, to allow private individuals to acquire the right to develop water-power upon that route, because it would, as every one sees, create rights, which might upon the determination of the government to push this canal scheme through, involve the government in a very large expenditure of money to buy up rights that had been so acquired. Just in that connection, let me point out that it seems to me most unfair- and this is one of the strongest arguments, parliaps, that I can urge upon the government to be more energetic in building the Trent Valley canal-that this immense water-power is practically tied up there. I am told upon very good authority that if the government were willing to-day to abandon this project and give it over to private enterprise, there is any amount of capital ready and waiting to go into the enterprise, and develop it not only for. the purposes of the canal, but simply for the revenue that would be derived from the water-power. It seems to me that it is a dog-in-the-manger policy on the part of the government to refuse to private individuals or to corporations the right to develop this power and yet not go on and develop it themselves. What I have said in regard to the development of power in Trenton, is perfectly true in regard to the village of Frankford, the village of Campbellford, the town of Hastings, the city of Peterborough, and all the other towns and villages along the line of this Trent water-way. The development of cheap power is desired by all for the promotion of manufacturing industries. I have taken pains to ascertain some of the facts concerning the development of water-power, I find that on the portion of the canal from Peterborough to Trenton, that is, merely the southern portion of the canal, it has been carefully estimated that
100,000	horse-power could be developed. If that is so, the lease of such an extent of water-power would furnish a more than handsome return on all the money that would be required to be spent by this country in the completion of the canal. Let me refer to some further remarks in this connection by Mr. Gilmour. In summarizing his investigation he says :
Trent canal route is some 1,454 miles shorter to Liverpool and return and to the European markets than the Erie canal, and over 500 miles shorter than our present St. Lawrence canals that actually captured a good part of the American trade this year, .1903.
He emphasizes what I have already pointed out to this House, that by reason of the Erie canal not being able to compete with the improved conditions of the railways the Erie Canal lost the control of the traffic and the railways captured it. That traffic which was then being captured by the railways- Mr. Gilmour does not say so but it is the fact-by reason of the policy inaugurated

874t
by the Liberal-Conservative party in enlarging the canal system of Canada has been largely acquired by Canada.
The most economical barges, carefully figured out for cheapest carrying capacity, of the tn-larged Brie canal have a capacity of about 33,333 bushels each barge. Trent canal barge capacity, each barge 25,000 bushels and can easily increase or double canal if wanted.
The whole American and Canadian grain trade adjacent to the Great Lakes would be at the command of the Trent canal when completed on account of its shortness and cheap carrying capacity to large European markets, and could be absolutely contracted for when canal is completed in spite of anything that can be done by any other route.
Safety of Trent canal is assured as it is all inland water from Midland on the Georgian bay to Montreal and Quebec and no objections to open lake same as Erie canal had in discussing advantages that might be had in their using Lake Ontario.
Barges with independent propelling power can easily be used for local trade going and coming, and the whole length of canal and St. Lawrence route stopping at any and all towns and villages, afterwards joining through towing fleets.
Now, let me for a moment refer to the evidence of another eminent gentleman who has given this matter very careful consideration and who, I venture to say has given that consideration under the direction of this government of which he is an employee. I refer to the statement of Mr. It. B. Rogers, C.E., He says :
The estimated cost of transhipping at Midland is from I to h cent per bushel. The depth of water in the water-way when completed will be 8 feet 4 inches. The present barges on the Erie canal are about one-third the capacity of those intended for use on the Trent. The distance from Georgian Bay to Trentotn will be about 200 miles, of which only about one-tenth of this distance will be actual canal. The Erie canal is about 352 miles long from Buffalo to Albany, about all of which distance is actual canal, and 150 miles of river navigation from Albany to New York. In comparing the length of time required to go from Midland to Montreal, and from Buffalo to New York, many different points have to be taken into consideration-but a single steam barge from Midland to Montreal would take 69 hours, and from Buffalo to New York, the Erie canal about double this time. Regarding freight rates by rail or by water of course the rate on the Trent canal can only be arrived at by comparison with the rates on other barge canals, for instance on the Erie canal. The distance from Midland to tide-water at Montreal is 445 miles. From Buffalo to tide-water at New York is 503 miles. Freight is delivered now at Midland from the western ports at 1 cent per bushel, and at Buffalo at 1'42 to 2 cents per bushel. By the new Erie canal, Major Symonds, who is perhaps the most expert barge engineer in the United States, calculates that wheat can be taken from Buffalo to New York at 8-10 of one cent per bushel. Now if they can do that on the new Erie we can do it on the Trent canal, being, as I hav mntioned above, a water-waj', not a canal. This 8-10 of a cent added to the
1 cent rate to Midland and J cent for transhipping charges will make a rate of 2'3 cents from the western ports to Montreal. Rates from western ports to Montreal via Depot Harbour 5 cents, via Midland 5 to 6 cents. Rates from western ports to New York via Buffalo by water and rail 6| to 7 cents ; by water about 5i cents..
Regarding the difference in distance from Port Arthur to Liverpool, that via" the Trent canal is 757 miles shorter than via the Erie canal, which on the return trip amounts to 1,514 miles.
I repeat that no one can consider the evidence of these eminent men, one of them an engineer in the employ of the government, and fail to realize the very great advantage that Canada has, if she will only use it by the improvement of the Trent ivater-way, over any means of transportation that the United States can offer against us. Besides the Important advantages which will accrue to the Dominion as a whole through the completion of the Trent Valley canal there are very many other advantages that will accrue to the cities, towns, villages, municipalities and individuals directly affected, by providing cheap freight rates.
It is estimated that to fully complete this section of the canal, including what has already been expended by previous governments and by this government will cost about $10,000,000, which at ordinary rate of interest, 3 per cent, would' involve an annual charge of about $300,000. Now, as to the revenue from power. I am 'confining my presentation of this part of the case to that portion of the canal between Peterborough and the Bay of Quints, and it has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt that at least 100,000 horse-power can be got between these two points. The income derived from this hundred thousand horse-power sold or leased at the rate that it would be hound to command, would pay not only the interest upon the total investment of $10,000,000 necessary to complete the canal but it would be sufficient to provide a sinking fund that in a very few years would wipe out the capital expenditure upon: this whole enterprise.
Suppose this hundred thousand horsepower sold at $13 per horse-power, a rate at which it is being sold between Trenton and Belleville, any hon. gentleman can see that it will not only pay interest upon the investment but that it will provide a sinikng fund that in a few years will wipe out the whole obligation. But, that is only part of the possible revenue.
Take it from Peterborough to Midland; the water-power, if developed all along the r,bute, would increase the revenue of the government from day to day and year to year and enable them to pay off the capital expenditure entailed by the completion of this canal very much earlier than the date that I have shown by the figures that I have given. There is another very great advantage that it occurs to me would accrue to the people by the completion of

this water-way, perhaps it is one of its most important results and that is the competition that will be created between transportation by means of water and, transportation by means of the railways. As I have already taken occasion to remark, I do not think that any question exists to-day in the mind of any man who has given the matter study but what transportation by water is really the regulating power or regulator so to speak of the rates that will be charged on railways. Railways now charge the very highest rate that commerce can endure and live and the construction of this canal would have a very important bearing upon this important proposition. The limit of rates for transportation would then be regulated or controlled by the cost of transportation by this water route, and every shipper would derive permanent relief and protection against railway monopoly. A very small saving per ton per mile when we consider the immense quantities of trade that will be carried over this route and the saving in distance will amount to a sum that is almost inconceivable. If one would sit down and figure it out the saving in distance and freight would be simply enormous and it is one of the reasons which to my mind should appeal to the government to lay down at this time a definite and positive policy and energically enter upon the carrying out of that policy for the advantage of the people of Canada. Last year 28,000,000 bushels of grain were shipped to Midland and Depot Harbour and this would be very largely increased by the development of the western country and by the attraction of cheap transportation by means of this water-way. It is to my mind impossible to adequately conceive what the extent of that growth will be. The freight carried from points along the route of this canal already assumes very large proportions. Peterborough last year alone shipped in and out by rail over
290.000	tons of freight, Campbellford over
36.000	tons, Trenton over 100,000 tons, Hastings, Lakefield, Bobcaygeon, Fenelon Falls, Cambridge, Barrie, Orillia and other smaller towns and villages along the line shipped freight in proportion and all of these figures are sure to increase, and the trade is of proportionate advantage to the people resident in these particular districts. Added to these facts that by the Trent Valley waterway to Liverpool there would be absolute saving in distance of over 1,500 miles, that being the difference in distance in favour of this route as against any other route either through Canada or the United States, I think one cannot fail to see the many jgreat and permanent advantages to the people of Canada to be derived from putting into useful form this natural water-way ; nor can any man doubt that to allow local political or sectional difficulties to impede the construction of this great work would justly merit the condemnation of the Canadian people. So far I have endea-


Edward Guss Porter: voured to deal with those features in connection with this proposition upon which I think all parties are practically agreed. There are differences that exist, but these differences I venture to say, are purely local and caused by sectional interest which one party or the other may have in this enterprise.
In the early part of this session the Minister of Finance announced that he had a magnificent surplus, and seeing the advantages which the country as a whole will derive from the development of this waterway, it appears to me that the Minister of Finance could not do better than to recommend that a certain portion of that surplus of which he boasts should be applied to the carrying out of this work. Differences exist as to the plan of this undertaking, but these differences do not in any manner detract from the principle which I advocate, namely, the completion of the Trent Valley water-way. It is contended by my hon. friend from Bast Durham (Mr. Ward) that the southern terminus should be at the town of Port Hope, while I contend that the southern terminus should be at the town of Trenton. In view of such difference of opinion, the sound principle to adopt would be to follow the expert testimony of a competent person who has studied all the evidence that can be supplied, both for and against either of the routes mentioned. I think, in view of what has occurred in the past, the House will have no hesitation in arriving at the conclusion that Trenton is the natural and proper outlet of this great water-way. In the determination of a matter of this kind, the cost of construction and maintenance should not be the sole consideration ; utility and the advantages to be derived by the country generally should control the action of the government. There have already been several surveys made of the two routes by engineers appointed by the present and by the previous government. Owing to the pressure brought to bear upon the present government by those who are in favour of the Port Hope terminus, the government saw fit to appoint Mr. McLeod, an engineer of the most eminent respectability and ability, to investigate all the reports, surveys and estimates that had been made by pre vious engineers. Mr. McLeod had placed in his hands all this data furnished from the time that Mr. Maingy, under the British government, made his first report. Mr. Me Leod went over the route, and after a most careful investigation of the whole situation, and a thorough consideration of the benefits that might be derived, not only by the two towns more particularly interested, but by the country at large, he made his report. After Mr. McLeod had made his report, the assertion was made from the town of Port Hope that that gentleman, in making his report, was actuated by some ulterior motive, and did not report in accordance with the time facts. Knowing, as most of

us do the eminent respectability and ability of Mr. McLeod, we know it is an unworthy insinuation for any one to make. Mr. McLeod is a gentleman in whom I have the utmost confidence. He is a gentleman in whom the government has placed their confidence, and there is no doubt that he reported impartially and according to his honest convictions. Mr. McLeod's report is very lengthy, and I shall summarize it. He says :
From the examination made, it would appear that there is little difference in the cost of either route-the estimates show a difference of $144,537 in favour of the Port Hope route.
The difficulty of navigating Lake Ontario with canal boats in stormy weather is a serious objection to the Port Hope route.
The>
material for canal construction is better on the Trenton route, and the deep cutting on the Port Hope section is avoided by adopting the river route.
The diversion of water from its natural course, would be a source1 of great expense to the government-complaints were made that the water sometimes falls very low in the Trent river.
The largest public benefit would be obtained by constructing the canal through or near the towns of Hastings, Campbellford, Frankford and Trenton, where there are now large mills and factories.
A very large amount of water-power would be more available at the various dams on the Trent river than on the Port Hope route, and would be a valuable asset for the government.
The harbour of Trenton is much larger, and superior to that of Port Hope, and terminates in the inland waters of the Bay of Quints,
For the above reasons I consider that the Trenton route is the most suitable for the canal.
In briefly considering the differences that exist as to the southern terminus of this canal perhaps I could not deal with the matter in a better manner than by taking up and discussing the advantages claimed for the Port Hope route by its advocates. The principal advantage claimed is the saving in distance in construction from Rice lake to Port Hope over Rice lake to Trenton. The Port Hope route is said to be twenty-three miles, the Trenton route fifty-eight miles, and they thus claim a saving of thirty-five miles.
In this connection the advocates of the Port Hope route, forget or avoid stating that the distance from Rice lake to Montreal by way of Port Hope is greater than by way of Trenton by a distance of forty miles, that being the distance of Port Hope from Trenton via Lake Ontario and the Murray canal, and thus the mere matter of distance is more than made up by the Trenton route. They also minimize or omit to mention altogether the dangers of lake navigation from Port Hope to the Murray canal for light draft barges such as would be used in this canal. Any thoughtful consideration of these dangers, and the necessary delays by such a route, is sufficient in itself to condemn the adoption of this proposition. Port Hope harbour being an artificial one, these barges could enter it from the lake or leave it only in favourable weather. The prevailing winds during the season of navigation are from the south and west, thus blowing in upon the Ontario shore; and between Port Hope and the Murray canal there are no natural protected harbours in which in case of storm these barges could take refuge. Along that coast or shore are also a number of reefs and dangerous places, notably the Bluff and Presqu'ile Point-the latter stretching out into the lake in a southeasterly direction, and separated from the Murray shore by only a narrow channel. This channel I am told is constantly shifting owing to the sandy formation of the shore along the Murray side, and the water is exceedingly shallow outside this narrow channel. I have a personal knowledge of many wrecks at this point, having been born and brought up within a few miles of that place. To eater the Murray canal from Port Hope these barges would be obliged to describe three-quarters of a circle around the Presqu'isle Point, surrounded by these dangerous shoals, with only a narrow channel to work in, to navigate which at any time would be difficult, and in a rough sea would be almost impossible and undoubtedly dangerous. If these considerations alone were not enough to counterbalance this question of distance in construction, I would call attention to the fact that of the fifty-eight miles by the Trenton route, I am informed there is about thirty miles of it river navigation, thus leaving only about five miles difference in direct canalage.
The difference in the cost of construction of the two routes is only about $144,000, as estimated by an independent engineer-altogether too small a sum to have much weight in determining the route of this canal, having regard to the disadvantages and positive dangers to which I have referred, and contrasting with them the land-locked route terminating at Trenton, with a natural harbour and entirely inland navigation. The differences in cost of construction and saving of distance to be constructed are the chief arguments used by those who favour the Port Hope route, and these claims have been more than met by what I have stated. There are other questions raised such as the ease of construction, the area of lands to be flooded, both of these questions being involved in the other two, and the answer to the one being the answer to the other. The Trenton route will be constructed almost entirely through a limestone formation, thus affording a permanence in construction which could never be obtained on the Port Hope route, which must be constructed through light clay and sand, and, for a considerable distance, with banks ranging to a height of 136 feet, which must of neces-

8752'
sity be constantly shifting and falling into the canal, rendering permanent construction an impossibility. Although the initial cost of construction of the Port Hope route may (be the cheaper by the few thousand dollars stated, yet the cost of repains that will from time to time have to be made, will in a short time more than equal the difference in cost of first construction.
Another, and perhaps one of the most serious objections to the Port Hope route is the fact that it will have the effect of diverting from their natural channel the waters of the Trent to the loss and detriment of manufacturers and riparian owners along its course. These riparian owners have vested rights which cannot thus be Infringed upon Or . taken away wi'fJioiKt compensation.
To thus obligate the country, by the adoption of the Port Hope route, to compensate these owners for the damages sustained by them in the loss of the water-power occasioned thereby, would entail such an expenditure as would in itself exclude such route from favourable consideration, whereas the adoption of the Trenton route will not only avoid such loss and damage, but will, as a matter of fact, materially increase the value of the water-powers.
Let me again refer to this question of the drowned lands. That argument has been used to a very great extent by gentlemen who are advocating the construction of this canal to Port Hope. They say that a large portion of the land in that section of country along the line of the Trent valley canal, if the terminus is to be at Trenton, will be flooded and the government will have to acquire the land by purchase, so that the outlay would be very much greater in that respect than via Port Hope.
The lands along the Trent route that would be flooded would not touch to any great extent, the valuable agricultural lands of that section, but would be confined to the bottom and shallow lands lying in the valley of the river-now of little value-and separated from the better lands for a great portion of the distance by ridges sufficient to confine the water, whereas most of the lands to be affected on the Port Hope route are rich agricultural lands of considerable value and lying on nearly a common level, which would be flooded to a greater extent some years than others, thus rendering the question of damage from flooding, an uncertain question and an always existing source of irritation and trouble as well as expense.
Again, the Port Hope route will pass through a purely agricultural section already highly developed in that direction and capable of little improvement with no possibilities for the development of any great amount of power ; on the other hand the Trenton route will not only pass through rich agricultural lands but will touch many thriving towns and villages that already possess large and important manufacturing Mr. PORTER.
I
industries, which with the power that will be developed on this route will enable them to extend their influence in manufacturing pursuits to such an extent as from this consideration alone would fully warrant the adoption of this route.
The adoption of the Port Hope route would mean the abandonment of all the works and the loss of all the moneys already expended on that portion of the Trent river between Rice lake and Trenton, viz.
The lock and dam at Hastings.
The lock and dam at Heeley's Palls.
And the lock and dam at Chisholm's Rapids which have cost a considerable sum, both in original construction and in maintenance.
The advocates of the Port Hope route would ask the government to abandon all these and to construct an entirely new work, whereby these completed works would become perfectly useless. Nearly all of these reasons which I have been urging in connection with the completion of this canal have already been urged upon the government in the reports of engineers appointed by the government upon whose judgment the ministry could well afford to act. I see that this year there is placed in the estimates a sum of about $300,000 for expenditure upon this enterprise. It appears to me that that is an altogether insufficient sum for such an enterprise as this. Last year I find by the Auditor General's Report that there was expended upon capital account $523,950.74. I find there was expended upon income $18,500, making a total of $542,450.74. The appropriation taken last year for this work was only $450,000, and the actual expenditure was $542,000, so we say that there was about $100,000 for expenditure for which there was no appropriation taken last year. By the main estimates brought down this year the first estimate was $100,000. I do not know, the Finance Minister could probably inform me in regard to that, whether that $100,000 asked for in the appropriation this year would be applied to wiping out the over-expenditure of last year. It strikes me that it may be so unless there is a special vote for that purpose. In that case there would be for this year only some $200,000.
Now, upon the past expenditure of $4,000,000 we have to pay $120,000 of interest, and we have to make good the $100,000 overspent last year, and so it seems to me it is simply juggling with the accounts to say we are expending $350,000 upon the Trent Valley canal this year. That statement may be used, and is being used I know of my own personal knowledge, by the gentleman who is to oppose me in the riding I have the honour to represent. He says that through his influence with the government he has got them to spend between $300,000 and $400,000 on this canal this year. It will take $100,000 to pay off the extra expenditure made last year ; $120,000 to pay the interest on the expenditure already made ; and

the contracts they have in hand will call for more money if they are completed within the time agreed upon than the total appropriation. So, according to the way I figure it, there is not any money left for expenditure on the Trent Valley canal this year. This government ought not to treat the country, particularly the portions of the country especially interested in this matter, in that way. This is a matter of such importance, not merely to the country as a w'hole, but especially to the part of the country particularly interested, that the government can well afford, and ought as a matter of duty, to take from the large surplus that the Minister of Finance says he has in hand a sum of $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 and complete this Trent Valley water-way so that the people of Canada may have some benefit from It. To put it in a nutshell, this is the position. We have the middle of this canal completed, a hundred odd miles, and both ends shut up. I submit that this government ought not to trifle with the people in that way, they ought not to leave it in the hands of politicians to dangle it before the electors and use it as a means of influencing the vote of one elector or another, but should come out fairly and declare a policy, and that .policy should be the completion of that Canal by way of Trenton. And they should enter upon the completion of that canal without further delay.


ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANADIAN CONSULAR SERVICE.
Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: I beg to make a few remarks, before this question is put, on the subject of the commercial relations of Canada, including expenditures in connection with negotiation of treaties or extension of commercial relations. This is the amount placed in the estimates for 1905 for such purposes ; it is not greater, it is not smaller than the amount of 1904 spent for the extension of Canadian commercial relations. For years past it nas been discussed both in the press, and in public, that it would be advisable that Canada should have as its representatives Canadian born citizens. This is the proper place and time to speak out what many Canadians think of the British consular service and the commercial agencies of Canada. Most of us say that they are deficient and that they should be replaced by a British Canadian consular service, paid by Canada, composed of her best trained citizens educated in commercial high schools, and appointed by England directly or by Canada by way of delegation. 1 need not say that such consuls would have to devote all their energy and time to the service of our country.
At once I must declare that I do not ignore the existence of the Trade and Commerce Department of Canada which was created I would say, in 1893, under the instigation
of Mr. Parmelee, the present and always able Deputy Ministers of Trade and Commerce. I do not wish anybody to forget that that department has for its head the brilliant, the efficient present Minister of Trade and Commerce, whose great eloquence is equal to his wise statesmanship and wide parliamentary experience. I know that Canada has a few able commissioners to advocate her commercial interests outside of its territory, under the guidance of a clever and devoted superintendent of agencies, Mr. O'Hara, newly appointed by this government. I also know that since 1896, the number of our agencies has been increased from G to 13 and their efficiency has been made fivefold greater. I admit that our Trade and Commerce Department has been since 1893 publishing, at first, annually, then monthly, and then weekly, the reports of our commercial agents. 1 confess that our Trade and Commerce Department has been making the most useful'reports concerning the trade, imports, exports, tonnage of Canada, the inspection of staple products, the culling, in Canada, and miscellaneous subjects as well as concerning the foreign trade of Canada, that is with England, and most of her sixty provinces or colonies and most of the sixty-five states composing the universal society of to-day. But I feel bound to say that our Trade and Commerce Department, which is the money-making department of our administration, is not as well treated as a spending department, by the parliament of Canada or that of Great Britain. The good work of our trade and commerce is handicapped by a want of a sufficient amount of money put at its disposal for the promotion of our commercial agencies, the negotiation of commercial treaties and the extension of the commercial relations of Canada.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do not they get all the funds they want ? We have never refused them any.


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: They have not sufficient funds. Moreover, our commercial agents have no status in international law : they are bound to be ignored by the foreign states, their number is totally inadequate to the work; their salaries are so meagre; their reports not sufficiently circulated, their qualifications in some cases totally deficient in many respects.
.cet us examine first the present condition of the British consular service ; and then-I will try to express what should be done to remedy the present evils. For many years Canadian commercial interests have been suffering greatly through lack of proper representation outside of Canada. What condition of affairs are we in to-day ? If the government of Canada wish to communicate with a British consul, very often they have to reach him via the Governor General of Canada, the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office and come back through the same chan-

nel; because that good consul will not think it fit to answer our government. Otherwise when I thus speak, I desire before anything else to declare my complete loyalty to the empire. Sir, I estimate too highly what my countrymen owe to the British sovereignty to either say or do anything which will seem as disloyal to our mother country. For I know, Sir, that economically the stability, the security, and the permanency of conditions enjoyed by persons and things Canadian are due to the everlasting prestige and strength of England. For, I know, Sir, that politically, my countrymen owe to England a great debt of gratitude and faithfulness for the great sum of freedom and liberty granted to Canada, and more particularly to my native province.
In Quebec, while we still cherish the maintenance of many connections with the intellectual French world, we are too thoroughly and happily linked to the defence to the last of the British flag, to say anything unbecoming to a British subject. I am here purely and simply to express the views of my countrymen of to-day, of a great many men of my age, who would like to have better commercial agents representing Canada throughout the United States as well as throughout Europe. The time is "ripe for Canada to have some of its own citizens to press its own interests in th|e principal capitals and cities of the world. We should be relieved of such consular service as that rendered by Mr. Staniforth of Rio Grande do Sul, who being ignorant of the law regarding the Canadian flag on registered vessels, thought it best to mutilate such flag so proudly and boldly carried to the South American seas by the J. M. Taylor, brigantine of Parrsborough, in Nova Scotia. We do not want for Canada anything which will resemble diplomatic representation, but what we do want is proper consular representation for the benefit more particularly of the citizens and traders of Canada. That is what we have never had, and that is what we will not have as long as British authority will not delegate to its largest colony the right of appointment of commercial agents, or will not agree to name as its consuls, such men as may be [DOT]designated by the government" of Canada and who will have special instructions to work for Canadian welfare.
I will try at once to answer some of the objections which may naturally be raised that England will never grant to Canada the right to appoint consuls and teat the discussion I am now raising will have no practical result. To this I will answer that neither does the constitution prevent us from making such a request nor is there any reason why the same cannot be granted. This has already been granted by England to the East India Company, as was pointed out by Edmund Burke in his great oration in arraignment of Warren Hastings. Such has been the case, moreover, for most


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: of that third class of English colonies called the Privileged Chartered Colonies.
The right of petition is one of the twelve natural rights which cannot be set aside by one or any positive laws, neither constitutional nor municipal. Therefore, I am here expressing such views by and in virtue of my right of speech, granted to every man, even to a colonial, and to a man of a * dominion ' or ' plantation ' of His Majesty, to use the language of the Act, 3 and 4 of William IV, chapter 41, relating to the better administration of justice in His Majesty's Privy Council. And I feel authorized also to hold such pretensions by the fact that for the last thirty years, many of our Canadian statesmen have been engaged in the diplomatic service of England, at the request of the latter. Have we not seen such statesmen as Sir John A. Macdonald, Sir Charles Tupper, Sir Richard Cartwright, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Sir Louis Jette, Mr. Bourassa and Mr. A. B. Aylesworth clothed with the high office of diplomatic agents of England. Would it be out of the reach of things possible that Canadians could render good assistance to the Consular Service of England ? Could it be so that the Canadian born would be in a better position to explain Canadian affairs to the traders and citizens of the American republics ? Could it be so that a British Canadian born at Vancouver would know better the affairs of trade in San Francisco than a gentleman from Nottingham ? Could it be so that a Canadian consul born at Winnipeg would know better the business conditions in Duluth than a merchant from Edinburgh ? Could it be so because a British Canadian consul born in Montreal would know far better the trade and conditions in New York than a lawyer from Dublin ? Could it be so because a British Canadian consul born in Halifax' would know better the transportation trade between his city and those of the Atlantic coast than a retired colonel from Bristol ?
By establishing a British Canadian Consular Service, we would secure greater wealth for the empire as well ; because we think that by working for the development of one part of the empire we are working for the development of the whole empire. If we can make this Canada of ours three times stronger, richer, and more respected by the citizens of the other states, we will with three-fold power help the empire. In a word to the oae who asserts that England will never agree to give us special consular service, I say, Sir, let us demand it. This consular service should precede the granting of the right of treaty-making, a subject which has been a topic of discussion for the last few years throughout Canada. How can Canada make a good commercial treaty if it has no proper data or information about the contract it intends to enter into ? I say that the right to appoint Canadians as

consuls should first he granted, and then the treaty negotiating power should then comt Let me say with Kipling :
Let go, let go the anchors ;
Now ashamed at heart are we To bring so poor a cargo home That had for gift the sea !
Let go the great bow-anchors-
Ah, fools were we and blind-
The worst we stored with utter toil, The best we left behind !
And then wealth would come to our shores carried by a fleet of merchantmen five times greater than the one we have to-day. Has not the French poet Lemierre written :
Le sceptre de Neptune est le sceptre du Monde.
A most appropriate epigraph for the old merchant shipping Act of 1660.
I will now make a few remarks as to the necessity for Canada having a proper consular representation. Complaints are made against the usefulness of the British Consular Service ; the charges, I would venture to say, are well founded. These complaints come more particularly from England, because the Canadian traders have been in the past shrewd enough, clever enough and painstaking enough to secure for their own country a great bulk of the trade of the world, without such assistance from the British Consular Service ; but as every man knows, for the last few years, great battles for controlling trade have been raging fiercely throughout the world for the best position in the commercial market ; some new arrangement, some new weapons, some new soldiers should be secured for the development, the maintain-ance and the defence of Canadian trade. Let us refer to some English opinions as to the deficiency of the British Consular Service. Any one can read in the ' Quarterly Review ' of 1903, a very able article pointing out the deficiencies in that service, and condemning the same altogether for want of qualifications of the British consuls and inefficiency in the execution of the duties assigned to them by the guide of instruction published and distributed by the British Foreign Office.
In England it is a general complaint on the part of the traders that the diplomatic service, including consular service, is unfriendly or, at best, indifferent to the protection of commercial interests. In the second place, it is complained that the information given by the diplomatic, as well as the consular service, regarding commercial matters, which is transmitted from abroad, is not of the right kind-comes too late, and is not published in an accessible or attractive form. These charges have been made year after year in England. Since the year 1825, when proper salaries were first established in England for the British consuls, select committees of parliament
have been appointed with instructions to find out the ways and means of improving the consular service of the empire. The last select committee was appointed in the year 1886.
We gather from the correspondence respecting the question of assistance of diplomatic and consular service to British trade abroad much good information about the complaints of deficiency of the British consular service.
It is now admitted by every one in the British Isles that there is a persistent demand for more intelligent, energetic and efficient co-operaition on t'he part of consuls with merchants and manufacturers. It is said that in recent years, since the international commerce in all the great centres of the world, has become intensified to a degree undreamt of a generation ago, greater attention has been given to the duties and responsibilities of consuls in what has been one of their most important functions, that of acting as the pioneers, ambassadors and soldiers of trade.
Let me quote some opinions expressed by eminent British parliamentarians during aii important debate on the consular service of England during the year 1902. Any one can consult, with profit to himself, the English ' Hansard,' volume 110, page 728, July 3rd, 1902, and volume 111, pages 300 and 308, July 15, 1902. We find there expressions of opinion by such eminent men as Mr. James Bryce, 'Sir Charles Dilke and Sir Edward Grey, three late Under -Secretaries of State for England; as well as by Henry La-bouchere, the 'great parliamentarian and journalist, whom every one knows.
In the Parliamentary Debates, volume 111, pages 290-291, Henry Labouch&re said :
Mr. Labouchere (Northampton) said that he understood that sometimes a subordinate of the consular staff was a foreigner, but he thought the idea of the Foreign Office was that so far as they could do it, they got men of British nationality in the- consular service. There was a case in Berlin some time ago, where this country appointed the backer of Prince Bismarck, and it struck him at that time that a man more unfit to represent British interests in Germany could not be found than Prince Bismarck's banker.
He was a strong advocate of large expenditure being undertaken by the government for the spreading and looking after of our commerce, but he did not think, considering what we spent on our army and navy we spent a sufficient amount on our consular service.
The bon. member had come across consuls who were charming men ; he knew nothing personally against them, but certainly no country would think of having these men as commercial agents. They could not write reports, but they went to some merchant, perhaps their tailor or somebody, and asked him to write1 a report. They signed it and sent it home. These reports were in many cases, not worth the paper they were written on. Some of the reports were very good but many of them were very poor. These men had no commercial education. The Foreign Office must recognize

that this must he made a profession. They must take young men who had passed an examination and put them as pupils in divers consulates, giving them a small salary.. Then, according to their fitness to the work, they could be promoted to be vice-consuls, consuls, and consular generals with larger salaries. Our consular officer in the matter of commercial intelligence was below that of Prance. He could not agree with his hon. friend opposite that the consular service should be put under *the Board of Trade and separated from the Foreign Office.
Sir Edward Grey, pages 301, 302 and 303, -volume 111, said :
Sir Edward Grey (Northumberland, Berwick): In order to secure a sufficient service a considerable amount of money must be spent on it. He quite agreed that a rearrangement and redistribution of the amount now spent might do something, but it would not do all that was wanted. He thought that more would have to be spent ; and he would ask hon. members to bear in mind that though in times of peace we should spend much less than in times of war, there were services which required considerable expenditure in times of peace.
What they would like to see was a more professional service and men being specially trained for the work. But having got men specially trained for the work, they must see that their promotion in the consular service was as far as possible in accordance with the merit. Men who had been specially trained for the work must receive adequate recognition whenever they responded to the training that had been given them.
Sir Edward Grey continued :
He doubted whether a consular office drawing up his report, had a sufficiently clear idea of what the government wished him to do.
When the great trading districts of the country were turning out as much work as they could do, they were not likely to be very anxious about whether new markets were being formed or whether a market was being lost in any other part of the world. That was just the danger against which they must endeavour to guard.
Mr. Louis Sinclair (Essex, Romford) said :
Mr. Louis Sinclair thought these consular reports should at least be business-like, otherwise they were not worth the paper they were printed upon, and it would be a waste of time to read them and publish them. It was well known how unbusiness-like the Foreign Office was in these matters, and our trade and commerce suffered in consequence. Our consular reports compared very unfavourably with those of the United States. America spent a much larger sum of money and employed fifty-one consuls in Germany, as compared with five paid officials representing Great Britain in Germany. That showed how unbusiness-like the method of the Foreign Office was, and in his opinion this department ought to be placed in charge of a Minister of Commerce. This question very much affected the colonies, because foreign governments had consuls and commercial attaches in all our colonies, with the result that they snatched the trade which should come to this country. They had no information sent them to guide English traders and manufacturers. This Mr. GERVAIS.
was not the only point in which this country was behind, for in South Africa and Japan similar things were occurring.
In South Africa during the war, France and Germany sent agents to report what could be done there for their manufactures, and all kinds of trade in manufactured articles and contracts had been taken away from us. That was the result of inadequate commercial information, for they had a right to demand reliable information for the money which was spent. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs seemed to be satisfied that the amount of commerce with Bolivia was so small that it was not worth considering.
Mr. Bryce said :
Mr. Bryce agreed that he had seen a good many of the reports of United States consuls, and he would suggest to the Foreign Office that the representatives abroad should furnish us with similar reports. They were short treaties on the commercial possibilities of the future.
Sir Charles Dilke, page 308, volume 111, said :
Sir Chas. Dilke : On the question of consular representation there was a tendency on the part of all who had been connected with the Foreign Office to ignore the fact that there had been a good deal of jobbery with consular appointments. Personally he was acquainted-as others must be-with notorious cases in which men by an undue use of the patronage of various Secretaries of State, had been jobbed in consular appointments for which they were totally unfit, and the interests of the country had suffered in a very high degree in consequence. There was also the fact that most meritorious consuls had for years laboured very hard indeed in the service of the country, and in the commercial work to wffiich so much importance was properly attached, and had then frequently been passed over, and men from outside had been ' jobbed ' over their heads into posts which were regarded as the prizes of the profession and to which these consuls ought to have been appointed as a reward for the good work they had done.
Parliamentary Debates, volume 110, page 728 :[DOT]
Mr. Bryce (Aberdeen S.) :	The one thing he
regretted was that appointments to the service were often made in the spirit of what might be called pure patronage, men being appointed for political and personal reasons, to the disappointment of the legitimate hopes of better men in the service.
It was said during this debate that one could find in England men who had written on commercial subjects and who had gained universal public estimation, who had been lost to the state by their retirement, while still in middle age and full of capacity for continued efficient service, while others who have never afforded any public evidence of interest in either commercial or shipping matters, and who had no experience whatsoever to fit them for such posts, had been appointed to office in the most important commercial and shipping ports. Sir Henry Bergue. head of the Consulate Department of the British Foreign Office, as late as the

87G2
year 1901. admitted under oath, before a select committee of the House, that there was no officer in the Foreign Office to study the consular reports, that he himself had merely ' skimmed ' them. Sir Henry Bergne admitted also that there was no officer in the Foreign Office to even read the consular reports ; that there were too many honorary consuls and vice-consuls.
Another charge was made against the British consular system, which was to the effect that no competitive examination was held for the appointment of consuls, but merely and exclusively a qualifying examination. Here is a synopsis of the qualifications required in order to become a British consul ; applicant must read and speak English and French, he must be able also to speak the language of the people amongst whpm hei Is to reside. That is to say, if the British consul is to be stationed near the Mediterranean sea, lie will be required to speak French or Italian ; if he is to be stationed near the Baltic, he will be required to know the German language; if he Is to be stationed in some Spanish countries, he will have to know Spanish, and so on. Lastly, the applicant for the British consular service must have a knowledge of Colenso's arithmetic, and have a general knowledge of the commercial and mercantile law.
One of the charges made by Mr. James Bryce and the other speakers in the British House of Commons, is that the consular service of England has been made a harbour of refuge for retired army officers, or for failures, whose only recommendation is aristocratic, official or personal influence.
Another ground of complaint in England is that the British Consulate generally is worse paid than those of France, Germany, Russia, and the United States ; while on the other hand, the American consul in London is getting a salary of $5,000 a year, the British consul resident in New York, $10,000 ; but on the whole, it is admitted that the British consul is not well enough paid.
The members of this House will, at a glance, see that I am drawing a very poor picture of the British Consular Service. Let me say at once that the complainants in the House of Commons in England against the British Consular Service have discovered in some departments persons whose qualifications are perfectly adequate to the duties of a first-class agent. As far* as can be gathered from the discussion in England, the consul appointed in the Near and Far East, is perfectly capable of representing British interests, and it is admitted that the greatest success achieved by the British government in the Near and Far East was so obtained through the ability of its consular agents. Some have found in this branch of the consular service a model for
a general consular service for England. For those consuls who have to go to the Near and Far East, there are very searching examinations. An applicant for British Consular Service in the Near and Far East, must, outside of the general knowledge he has gained, in the British schools, qualify in Latin, French, German, and precis-writing, geography, mathematics, elements of criminal law, elements of commercial and mercantile law ; then the applicant must take some probationary service with the junior attaches to the Pekin, Tolcio or Bangkok legations. Further, me applicant must learn the language, the history, geography, the history of treaties and the Orders in Council relating to the country in which he is to lie appointed. While speaking about this matter of Orders in Council, let me once more refer to the British Consul Percy Staniforth at Rio Grande do Sul. and say that he would have avoided insult, in February, 1904. to the flag of Canada, had he known tne Orders in Council of lt>oo and 1892 permitting Canada at any rate, to have a flag of its own for our vessels registered in Canada. But let me come back to the question of consular qualification. The applicant for British consular service in the Near and Far East is often attached to a British court in the Far East; for example, to the Supreme Court, in China, and very often the British consul will become judge of such Supreme court, and will be called to the bar and appointed to such high court.
The ' Quarterly Review ' points out that the French Consular Service is in marked contrast to the indifference displayed in Great Britain to the qualification of persons selected for consular service. Those are the views of British parliamentarians concerning the British consular agencies.
Let me add some further remarks in regard to the deficiencies of the present consular service as far as we are concerned'. Lot me compare the British Consular Service with the American. If we look at the American consular reports for 1902, we find that Mr. Listoe. a consul in Holland1, gave current quotations of prices in Rot-te! dam and general information about American lumber, pig-iron, shoes, and flour. Mr. Lisioe, among other things says :
1 have investigated the matter and find that the following quotations rule at present for logs per one thousand feet, board measure :
Prime walnut logs, 16 inches and upward, to average 21 to 22 inches, $90 to $100 ; to average 23 inches to 24 inches, $110 to $120.
Pitch pine, 1 inch to 3 inches, by 11 inches and upwards per standard $63.25 to $65.68.


Capt.   C.@: McFarlane, a consul at Nottingham, reproduces in his report good designs of Jacquard's silk machines.
Mr. Harris Eibenstock gives lithographic reproductions of the Bulow Strasse showing the construction of the underground and elevated railways at Berlin, Germany.


Capt.   R.@: 

876S
face of the earth under different styles and names. On the other hand, when we look at the foreign states, we see that immense amounts of money are spent yearly for the benefit of the diplomatic service and more especially of consular representation. Here is a list of some of the countries with their expenditures.
Germany :	14,818,000 marks or $3,704,-
500.
Denmark : 771,338 kroners 263/1000 or $193,000.
France:	17,601,210 francs 193/1000 or

Greece : 2,698,553 draekmai 193/1000 or $540,000.
Italy : 16,363,891 iires 193/1000 or $3,273,-
000. ,
Japan: 2,284,161 yens 498/1000 or $142,081.
Netherlands : 947,301 guilders 400/1000 or $380,000.
Portugal : 359,650 milreis 1080/1000 or $400,000.
Russia : 6,063,033 rubles 575/1000 of $3,040,000.
Spain : 5,077,252 pesetas 193/10U0 or $1,015,483.	*
Sweden :	695,150 kroners 268/1000 or

Norway:	764,878 kroners 268/1000 or


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: You will see, at once, what a good Canadian consul having at heart the promotion of the interests of their country should be.
Here is what I would propose for the better extension of our foreign trade: by means of a true British Canadian consular service.
1.	The publication of an official paper, setting forth tariff changes, movements, in foreign markets, foreign commercial legislation, port and harbour regulations, &c.
2.	rue establishment of an office in Ottawa where tariffs, circulars, items of commerce, news, &c., can be referred to by the public who may inspect and copy.
8.	That sample and specimen rooms should be attached to the principal consulate abroad, where various classes of Canadian manufactured goods .might be kept on view, and that the expense of maintaining such sample rooms should be met by fees to be fixed by an Order in Council.
4.	That Commercial Museums of foreign manufactured goods and products be established in well chosen centres in Canada and also exhibitions of Canadian goods, to be opened at foreign ports, or sent in vessels from place to place.
5.	That changes in foreign tariffs should be known more rapidly than heretofore, and tnat projected changes should be promptly reported.
6.	That consular officers abroad should use their best efforts to place British subjects on a not less favourable footing than foreigners in search of concessions or other commercial enterprises.
7.	That any such enterprise should at once be reported home by Her Majesty's representatives.
8.	That consuls be chosen from men (possessing commercial qualifications and technical knowledge, and that commercial clerks should be appointed to all consulates.
9.	That the names and addresses of consuls abroad and their office hours should be made public.
10.	That trade reports should appear more frequently and regularly and that copies of them be sent to trade journals.
11.	That diplomatic and consular reports should give the fullest details on the industry and condition of the foreign working classes and be distributed throughout Canada.
12.	That samples of goods be sent home with the .reports.
13.	That changes of classifications be noted, and decisions of commercial tribunals reported.
That Canadian commercial attaches be appointed to embassies and legations.
14.	That consuls should assist in recovering debts and recommend trustworthy lawyers and accountants.
15.	That consuls should report what means other countries adopt to push their trade.

16.	That consuls when home on leave should visit centres of Canadian manufactures and acquire technical knowledge.
17.	That they should report on the solvency of foreign business houses and how far credit may safely be given.
18.	That a special department of the Trade and Commerce Department charged with the prompt collection, publication and diffusion of important information concerning commercial and industrial affairs.
19.	That His Majesty's consuls should act as quasi-public prosecutors in cases of trade mark infringement, &c.
20.	That the Trade and Commerce Department be assisted by a council of advice to be composed of persons chosen from the chambers of commerce.
21.	That consuls should be placed in direct communication with chambers of commerce.
22.	That consuls should cultivate a closer personal touch with traders in their district.
23.	That consuls be allowed to pay for early statistical information.
Here are some facts about the trade of our country taken from abroad about the proper ways of developing the interests of our country. Canada is rich enough to pay for a consular service, and I do not see why Canada should not do its best to develop the trade which is coming to its shores and to its ports, l would like to see established in this country a consular service, trained according to the home modern pattern in use for the British consuls in the near and far east. X would like, as those British Canadian consuls would be compelled to work in America, in the South American republics, and to meet the German, French or Belgian consuls, or business men, that they should be trained according to the German, French and Belgian methods. Let us make, as in Belgium, the graduating in one of those schools, one of the requirements asked from a consul to qualify himself for such function. I would like to see our Canadian consuls trained in a school like those commercial high schools of Germany, France or Belgium, one of which should be established in each of the provinces of this great Dominion. I would like to have our Canadian consuls trained in a school similar to L'Ecole Superieure de Commerce de Paris, founded in 1820: de Mulhouse, founded in 1866; du Havre, de Bordeaux, de Lille, de l'Ecole des Hautes Commerciales de Paris, all founded between the years 1870 and 18S4. in a school like 1'Institut Superieur de Commerce d'Anvers in Belgium. After two or three years of study in a school like those German, Belgian or French schools, where our apprentice consuls would have studied the recent developments in higher commercial education, they would be fit to defend our commercial interests. In a school like that of Leipzig Handels-Hochschule, our consuls would have to study such subjects as:-
278J
(A)-Economies and Statistics.
Introduction to economic theory. Social economics. Economic problems of the present day (including agrarian crisis, the movement in the middle classes, commercial treaties and colonial problems.) Commercial and industrial history from the fifteenth century to the present time. Introduction to the study of statistics. History, theory and practice of statistics. Principles of public finance. English. Colonial policy.
(B)-Law.
General introduction to jurisprudence (for non-jurists). (Commercial law (various courses). Law of contract. Law regulating employment. Maritime law. Interna tional law. Law regulating insurance for sickness, accident and old age.
(C)-Geography, Study of Articles of Commerce, Technology.
Commercial geography. The United States. The Oarribean sea and the South American republics. The peoples of Indio-China, Ethnography. Scientific basis on which to ground a critical estimate of the characteristics of different nations. Chemistry in its application to industry and commerce. Tropical agriculture, with special reference to the English colonies.
(D)-Languages.
English. French. Italian. Spanish. German (and also special instructions in the Handels-Hochschule). Chinese.
(E)-Commercial Subjects.
Book-keeping {various courses adjusted to the commercial callings). Commercial correspondence (various courses'adjusted to the needs of different commercial callings). Commercial methods, office organization and the machinery of business (practical work in 'bureau'). Shorthand. Typewriting.
General Courses.
History of Europe (various courses). History of England (various courses) History of English culture and literature (various courses). History and present condition of the United States.
Courses specially meant for those intending to qualify as teachers.
History of education in the 19th century. American school system in 1901. School hygiene. Practice in elocution and voice-production.
Those industrial high schools in Germany, after having been ridiculed by narrowminded people, are now, together with the commercial high school, the ironclads of commerce, according to Mr. Meyer, deputy consul at Chemintz
I have finished, Sir. I have tried to prove these five facts :
1.	Inefficiency of the British consular service.

.2 Urgency of a Canadian consular service.
3.	Capability of Canada to defray such service.
4.	Opportunity to train our consuls.
5. Results-everlasting	prosperity and grandeur of Canada. It should be the wish of every man in this country (to have a better consular service, such as I have proposed, and which is in use in the best organized commercial countries of the world; and, with such a service, I may venture the opinion that within twenty year's the grand total of the wealth in this country will have doubled, for the benefit of its inhabitants and the welfare of the empire, as well as the motherland. New centres of commerce will have to be discovered for the benefit of the traders and merchantmen of Canada. A commercial fleet of tremendous proportions will have been created soon. Most of our imports will then be carried by Canadian vessels ; the less American railways will get of our money for transportation into Canada of imports, the more Canadians will get.
It is now (the time to repeat the words of Kipling :
Coastwise-Cross-seas-round the world and bach again,
Whither flaw shall fail us or the Trades drive down-
Plain-sail-Storm-sail-lay your board and tack again-
And all to bring a cargo up to London town !
Nobody has a right to hold us back, to prevent us fi'om breathing some of the international life, the highest form of life known to man. Canada has a natural right to trade in all shapes or forms, and to create all the essential organisms required therefor. The right to progress belongs to every community, as well as to individuals. Is there a good reason why Canada should be stopped from giving to her manufacturers, traders and shippers proper, complete and quick information about the foreign commodities, as well as the ways and means to export Canadian commodities ? Let Canada, therefore, ask England to grant her the right of appointing British Canadian consuls, or let Canada ask England to appoint consuls herself, consuls amongst the born Citizens of the latter, with the understanding, in any case, that those consuls will be paid by Canada, trained in Canada, and will work for Canada. The latter request should he granted to Canada at any rate. I may [understand very well that England will hesitate to divest herself of any part of her right of appointment of consuls, any portion of sovereign power Is so valuable according to the modern mind. But I cannot understand why England should refuse to appoint Canadian-born British subjects as her consuls. For, shall iit be said that in the empire of England, as in the empire of Rome, there are three classes of freedmen : The Cives Romani ; the Latini Juniani ; the


Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: dediditii. If it is so, let it be known to Canadians that they are Latini Juniani of the British empire.
The sooner the better.


FISHING REGULATIONS.
Mr. J. W. DANIEL (St. John City).: 
WM. G. GOOD.
[Stage Direction]
Notary Public.
I take it that this is a matter which concerns very closely indeed the Department of Marine and Fisheries. And I would ask the minister what he proposes to do under the circumstances and whether, in view of what is really an attempt at murder, he will take any action towards finding out and prosecuting the guilty parties. The reasons which the minister gave in remitting these fines and penalties, I think, would be taken exception to. Among other things he makes it a sort of quarrel, as it were, between the coast and net fishermen. But the carrying out of the Act is neither for one nor for the other, but for both. On the Quebec side of the Baie des Ohaleurs the Act is carried out, as it is in other parts of the country, and trouble is avoided. In the harbour of St. John we have a considerable salmon fishery, and the Act is strictly enforced. If it is possible to enforce it in one place it is possible to enforce it in another. As I am informed, the fishermen interested in the parts to which I refer are really anxious that the law should b'e enforced. But, because there are one or two who break the law the others do so as well.
Peter Macdonald: I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that at is Saturday night and nearly twelve O'clock.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It is not yet twelve o'clock, and I would like the minister say that if he will take any steps in regard to this outrage to which I now draw his attention, and also whether it is the policy of the department to lay down regulations


William Ross: I would call the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Daniel's) attention to the fact that it is twelve o'clock.
Mr. DANIEL-and whether it is the intention of the department to carry out the lawr. Because I am sure that notwithstanding the fact that the minister remitted the fines and penalties and, in so doing, stated that he thought the people were really trying to comply bona fide with the law, the evidence shows that these people were using trap-nets which is entirely opposed to the Fisheries Act.


William Ross: Twelve o'clock.


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Daniel) will allow me-I have an answer to the statement he is presenting and, as it is twelve oVfiock on Sunday morning I would suggest that he should

wait until Monday, when he can continue his remarks and when I can answer him.
Mr. FIELDING moved for leave to withdraw his motion for leave also to sit again on Monday.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Let us understand the (position.


William Stevens Fielding: There is practically no motion. We will renew the motion on Monday and the question can then be taken up again. The motion is withdrawn and any hon. gentleman, when the motion ftoi' supply is renewed, can bring up any matter in the usual way.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In what order will the business be taken up on Monday ?


William Stevens Fielding: We will proceed with the resolutions respecting railway subsidies, the tariff resolutions and supply. As to the particular order I am not quite sure but the [DOT]railway resolutions will probably be taken up first.
(Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.59 p.m.

Monday, August 8, 1904.