1904-03-28

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Mr. CHAMPAGNE presented the second report of the Select Committee appointed to supervise the official report of the debates of the House, as follows :-
Your committee recommend that the amanuenses to the official reporters, who, in accordance with the resolution adopted hy the House last session, were paid at the rate of $3.50 per day, he entitled to receive the same remuneration for their services. for this as well as future sessions.
Mr. SPROULE.: 



GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY-CORRESPONDENCE.

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Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Pi4®® Minister) laid on the table correspondence with regard to the supplementary contract with the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Coni' pany.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: That the papers now laid on the table in con nection with the Transcontinental amended contract be printed forthwith and tna Rule 94 be suspended in relation thereto.
I might suggest at the same time that ^ would be very desirable if the governm would have printed and distributed the Bill with the new, so that they might v compared together, and have them circuit ed before the Easter holidays are over.


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Motion agreed to.

Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of ance).: 
Mr. HENDERSON.: Has the hon. 4 man any doubt as to whether there tj0u reduction in the debt at all in coi with the readjustment ?


William Stevens Fielding: No doubt, apa^ acthe question of the readjustment



QUESTIONS.

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GiUmd
' TR0NK; pacific railway-
Idr	SURVEY.
t;l. Is JTTtBE aslced :
a^Sco at *Workr?i'?ent aware that survey par Q.°"tlrientai °nS the route of the proposec '>"ebe0 ? Railway between Winnipef
2.	Are these parties employed by the government or by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company ?
3.	If by the Railway Company, is there any understanding that the government will adopt the surveys, and pay the expenses incurred in making them ?
4.	In ease the cost will ultimately be met by the government is it not possible to take some steps to remedy the grievances, if such exist as set out in the petition received by the Minister of Railways from the Dominion Institute of Amalgamated Engineers ?
5.	Have any such steps been taken ?

Mr. W. J. ROCHE asked :: 1.	Who were the delegates sent by the government from Canada to Great Britain and Ire-jand^of any European country, during the year
2.	What amount was paid each delegate by way of salary and expenses ?
3.	What was the nature of the duties performed by each- delegate, and in what district were such duties performed ?


Hon. CLIFFORD SIFTON (Minister of the Interior).: I shall have to ask the hon, gentleman to move for a return in answer to this question as it involves a lengthy statement of figures.


ST. LAWRENCE ROUTE-DISTRIBUTION OF PAMPHLETS.
Mr. LENNOX asked :: 1.	Was the pamphlet entitled * From the Great Lakes, Canada's Great Waterway to the Ocean ' and purporting to be printed by the Mortimer Company. Ottawa, published and distributed by or at the instance of the government, the Department. of Marine and Fisheries, or any of the departments, or by or at the instance of any member of the government ; and if so, by which department or minister ?
_ 2. What was the cost, and where is the item in the public accounts ?
3.	How many copies have been distributed ?
4.	What is the purpose or object of the publication ?


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	The pamphlet was Issued through the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, and distributed at the instance of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and there was such a demand for it from all parts of

Canada and England, that a new supply had to be printed and distributed.
2.	Total cost : $651.22.	f which
appears in the Public Accounts of 1902-03, under contingencies.
3.	10,000 copies.	. .
4.	To advise the mariners of improvements made and to be made to aids to navigation in Canadian waterways.
RENTALS	^ M0N~


Mr. MONK asked :: 1	What is the total amount of rentals paid at present by the government for offices or other accommodation in the city of Montreal ?
2	What is the total amount paid by the government for similar purposes in the city of Ottawa ?


Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals) :: _
1	The total amount paid by the Department of Railways and Canals for rental of offices in the city of Montreal is $6,5o0.
2	Nothing is paid by the Department of Railways and Canals for similar purposes in the city of Ottawa.


Hon. JAS. SUTHERLAND (Minister of Public Works).: On behalf of the Department of Public Works I would answer the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Monk's) questions as follows :
1.	$5,264.
2.	$43,096.


Hon. RAYMOND PREEONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Eisheries).: The sum paid by the Department of Marine and Fisheries for the purpose referred to in Montreal is $2,000. There are no similar offices in Ottawa, so far as the Department of Marine and Fisheries is concerned. The department, however, rents a store-room on Sussex street, for light-house supplies, at an annual rental of $300.


MONTREAL POST OFFICE-ACCOMMODATION AND STAFF.
Mr. MONK asked :: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to enlarge the present post office at Montreal ?
2.	Is the government aware that the present post office at Montreal is quite inadequate to meet the requirements of the said city ?
3	Is it the intention of the government to increase the present staff of employees in the Montreal post office ?


Hon.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND (Minister of Public Works.) This department has not been officially notified by the Post Office Department that any more room is required in the Montreal post office. Changes and alterations were made to give necessary accommodation.
In the absence of the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) I would answer the question on behalf of the Post Office Department as follows :


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 1 and 2. Inquiry is being made as whether the present post office building Montreal is sufficient for the requireme ^ of the service, and until such inquiry completed it cannot be determined w action may he necessary.
3. It is intended at all times to mam -a staff of the strength necessary for J efficient performance of the work ox office.


MONTREAL POST OFFICE-EMPLOYEES
Frederick Debartzch Monk: ^
1.	Are post office employees called upon io city of Montreal to work overtime ?
2.	Are the said employees, or any of obliged to work on Sundays ?
3.	Do said employees receive any extra
for said extra work performed either during week or on Sundays ?	it
4.	Has the government ascertained, or * aware, that post office employees in the un , States are invariably paid for such extra w
5.	Is it the case that when a post office
ployee is ill and justifies his absence by * c* tor's certificate, his pay is retained in an cases of absence ?	, . tbe
6.	Have these facts been inquired into w*
Minister of Labour 1	0f


Hon.   JAS@: 
OTTAWA CUSTOM-HOUSE.
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Mr. BIRKETT-by Mr. Lavell-ask6^
Is it the intention of the government	V>
vide for the erection of a new custom the city of Ottawa this year ?	01
James Sutherland: 
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAIL
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-SURVEYS.	_
nske^'
Mr. KEMP-by Mr. Lancaster-*^ ^
1.	How many survey parties,	Tr8
engaged upon the eastern division
efi'
continental Railway ?	nari*eB
2. By whom were such survey v ^
ployed ?	. 0artieS
3.	Upon which sections have suen v working 1

Hon. H- R EMMBRSON (Minister of railways and Canals) :
Sn ' in a Position to say how many the t lng! i)al'ties, if any, are engaged upon thp m nk lille of the eastern division of 2 ^ansc°ntinental Railway.
^hom any are emP'°yed>
cannot say by
Wo,'.i ^01: aware that any such parties are ti0n lng on the trunk line on the said sec-
LOBSTER FISHERIES commission.
]Xlr- GANONG asked :
tit t^hat has been the total expense to date lobster°0mmission appointed to investigate the b°ard *>and other fisheries on the Atlantic sea-
®evera}lat; arQ°unt has been paid to date to the
3.	ua commissioners ?
1 jj tbe commission finished its work yet ? t>t investig Rken wdl it again take up the work
iswJ";f Raymond prefontaine (Min1, ^g^Marine and Fisheries) :
$26o.6q ^*owers, expenses and allowance, i°Wanoo	Armstrong, expenses and al-
^Penso' ^~A1.72 ; R. N. Venning, travelling
S.	Tm.6^.and iiving allowance, $235.51 ; J. ses, $2(!<'-a P'k>- (Magdalen Islands), expen-®enses U'°0 '	^ Found, secretary, ex-
M.P. aad freight, $136.15. J. J. Tucker, July' fhp. 4. S. Copp, M.P., are allowed aave nn,r exPenses, for which accounts
3.	Ro 1 yet been submitted.
during the coming summer.
llr.

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beach breakwater.

GANONG asked :
breakwater at Wilson's
Beach,
„ *ultfi		at vvijsuu h
J- If So onty, N.B., been completed ?
If hot I ,was the total cost ?
Med ,	' wpleted, what amount has been
1 is , date ?
r' ^'hen	in Prosress ?
' ^hen „ U1 tt he pushed to completion ?
, Ron	the work begun ?
^hblic Wop]jg^TIIE RI,AND (Minister of
S8R0e.d Amount expended to date,
p' Rtork^n? susPended for winter. Ji loon 1 be resumed 'in spring.
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TBUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY-ALIENS J,jr	As SURVEYORS.
St1' H'hatLARKE asked :	'
^ lift1	any' has been made to the
1904 , y the government on the 16th them^hiated E-.tr?m the Dominion Institute of
„ P\ .	wummiuu institute oi
°t aliens lglneors, respecting the employ-on the surveys being made in
connection with the National Transcontinental Railway ?
2.	Have any instructions been issued by tha
Department of Labour ? And if so, on what date, and of what nature, respecting the enforcement of the Alien Labour Law by the deporting of aliens, alleged to be employed on the surveys being made in connection with the National Transcontinental Railway ?	-
3.	Is it the intention of the government, in its new agreement with the Grand Trunk Railway Company, to provide for the employment of British subjects, as surveyors and engineers, in the work of surveying and construction of the new Transcontinental Railway 1
Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals):: 1.	The communication was acknowledged and promised consideration.
2.	This relates to the Department of Labour.
3.	The matter is under consideration.


Hon.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND (Minister of
Public Works). In the absence of the Minister of Labour (Hon. Sir William Mulock) I would answer question No 2, as follows : It is not the practice of the government to issue general instructions respecting deportations but to deal with each case as it arises.


RETURN OF RUSSIAN JEWS FROM UNITED STATES.
Mr. CLARKE asked :: 1.	Is the government aware or has its attention been called to the announcement made in the newspapers on Wednesday, March 23rd, that fifty Russian Jews have been returned from Fargo, N.D., to Winnipeg, by the United States authorities ?
2.	How long have these people been in Canada ? When and at what port did they enter the country ? "Were they sent to the Dominion by any Canadian emigration agent ? And if so, by whom, and from what port ?


Clifford Sifton: The attention of the Department of the Interior was called to the announcement that fifty Russian Jews had been returned from Fargo, North Dakota, to Winnipeg by the United States authorities. An inquiry was at once sent to the Commissioner of Immigration at Winnipeg, and he replied by telegraph on the 24th instant that the only people deported from Fargo, as charged, consisted of one Russian Jew family-father, mother and four children- who lived in Winnipeg for four years, and went to the United States a year ago. Nothing further is known of the family referred to.
IMPORTATIONS of raw cotton.


Mr.   WM@: ROSS (Ontario)-by Mr. Calvert -asked :
1. What is the quantity in value of raw cotton imported into Canada during each of the past six years ?

55&
1 2. From what countries was it imported ?
3.	What is the quantity and value of manufactured cotton imported into Canada during each of the past six years ?
4.	From what countries was it imported .
5.	What is '.lie quantity and value of manufactured cotton exported from Canada during each of the past six years ?	_
6.	To what countries was it exported .


Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs).: The information asked for would be rather lengthy to give by way of answer, and I would ask the hon. gentleman to drop the question and give notice of a motion for a return, which I will endeavour to bring down.
Question dropped.


COTTON PLANT GROWING IN CANADA.
Mr.   WM@: ROSS (Ontario)-by Mr. Calvert -asked :
1.	Is the cotton plant grown for commercial purposes in Canada ?
2.	Have any experiments ever been made by the government on any of its experimental farms, or at other points in Canada, to determine whether cotton could be profitably grown ?
If so, what were the results ?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: 1.	No.
2.	From 1890 to 1893 some experiments were made in the growing of cotton at the Central Experimental Farm. Seed of some of the earlier varieties was obtained for the purpose and sown in plots. The seed germinated and the plants grew, and before winter set in they also bloomed, but the frost cut them before any cotton formed. These experiments were repeated for several years with the same results. Cotton plants have been grown in the green-house at the Central Experimental Farm and cotton produced, but no success has attended the efforts to raise cotton in the open air. No experiments with cotton have been conducted at any of the other experimental farms, as the average mean temperature for the growing period is higher at Ottawa than it is at any of the branch experimental farms. The department is not aware that experiments in the growing of cotton have been made at any other points in Canada.


AMALGAMATION OF SOUTH SHORE, UNITED COUNTIES AND EAST RICHELIEU VALLEY RAILWAYS.
Frederick Debartzch Monk: 1'. Has any Order in Council been passed approving or ratifying an amalgamation of the South Shore, United Counties and East Richelieu Valley Railways, or any of them, under the name of the Quebec Southern Railway Company?
2.	If so, when was such Order in Council
passed ?	.
3.	Did any one apply for such Order in Council ? If so, who was the applicant ?


Mr. ROSS (Ontario).: 
COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE LUMBEB TRADE IN NORTHWEST.
Mr. DOUGLAS asked :: last
1.	Has the commission appointed at the 1
session of the House to investigate the do ^ tion of the. lumber trade in Manitoba, N -t-west Territories and British Columbia, rep jf ed"to the government ? If so, what acti >
any, has been taken on the report ?	wjH
2.	If this commission has ceased to act. ? another commission be appointed, and when ' e.
3.	Is the government ready, during tn 0-sent session, to take such steps as sha' 9r tect the general public interests m t ticular ?


William Stevens Fielding: 
HARCOURT.
Mr. BENNETT asked :: 
Mr. BENNETT.: At whose reqneS it stand ?	tlje re'


Mr. FITZPATRICK.: 
TORMEN TINE.
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eaMr- LEFURGEY-by Mr. Hackett-ask-
(0y' Bow were the Prince Edward Island mails <luri„ , d fr°m Sackville to Cape Tormentine
2	W laSt winter ?
it g ' ' as the contract xpade by tender ? And the what are the names of the tenderers, and of'comt°Unts ten(iers ? What were the terms trip .ntract, whether by trips and amount per
3	W°r tilne' au<i amount ?
the'SeVas .any arrangement made for carrying ®ails by the New Brunswick and Prince e d Island Railway ? And if not, why not ?
Puh?-n'JAS- SUTHERLAND (Minister of I p Woi'ks) :
'vicl- *.y leSular trains on the New Bruns-anqvfa,ncl Prince Edward Island Railway Past °1' a sboi't period by stage during the bv „jvinter when the railway was blocked * snow.
jj v*lei'° was no contract.
*With Vi other than the usual arrangement since jgg_l'ail''y*>3r which has been in force
of customs duties on postal packages from the United States, extends to such villages and places as are nearer to the customs house at Guelph than to any other customs house.
2.	The same rule applies to the jurisdiction of the collector of customs at Listowel as to that of the collector at Guelph in respect of the collection of customs duties on postal packages, from the United States.
3.	Palmerston appears to be nearer by railway to Listowel than to Guelph.
4.	Under the regulations of the customs and postal service, dutiable postal packages from the United States destined for Palmerston should be forwarded to the nearest collector of customs, who in this case is the collector at Listowel.
5.	The regulations of the postal and customs service in regard to the transportation of dutiable postal packages apply generally throughout Canada, and are to the following effect, viz :
On the arrival of such packages at post offices in Canada, the postal officer shall affix to each such parcel a red label, gummed, and with the following words printed thereon (or stamp the parcel similarly in red) viz. :	' Memo, for Postmasters.' This
package to be sent for customs entry to the collector of customs at the port or out-port nearest the place to which it is directed. The package is not to be delivered until marked with the proper customs stamp and the words 1 Duty Paid ' or ' Duty Free.'
By order of the Postmaster General.
6.	Answered by No. 4.
Election of customs at Palmerston,
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j11' tOLTON asked :
«fctj?nh« towns and villages are in the juris-y1tari0 [DOT]>
toe collector of customs at Guelph, 2, '
J*tctj0n towns and villages are in the juris-Ufttari0 ? co'Iector of customs of Listowel,
tow'C\ the aforementioned divisions is
4.	Tq a of Palmerston in ?
K0t11 theTT0?1 offlce would a dutiable package ontitm.,	States, mailed to Palmerston,
d,5' ls it tht0 Pa-7 duty ?
v'ttiabig lne Policy of the government that all e„Seht	addressed to Palmerston should
8. Is H °no port of entry ?
®ackage„ ® government aware that parcels and f? to an' ''dressed to Palmerston are liable to 'stowei k-S? following ports, viz. :-Guelph,
Ir°n.
and Walkerton ?
V'iS) '. ^ PATERSON (Minister of Cus-
***« havltS °* the customs ports and out-lleteg I10* been specificallv defined by , P The [DOT] 1.)0l1.nds-
0lhs &t p?llsd*ctl°n of the collector of cus-uelph, in respect of the collection

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EARLE-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Has an Order in Council been passed authorizing the issue of licenses for trap-net Ashing in the waters of British Columbia ?
2.	If not, is it the intention to pass such an order ?
Hon RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) :: 1.	No.
2.	Under consideration.


COLLECTOR OF CUSTOMS, VICTORIA, B.C.
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Mr. EARLE-by Mr. Lancaster-asked :
1.	Has the government been advised of the demise of A. R. Milne, C.M.G., collector of customs at the Port of Victfiria, B.C. ?
2.	Has his successor been appointed ?
3.	If so, who is he ?
4.	If no appointment has been made, what is the cause of the delay ?
Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs) :: 
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY-
Mr.  F. D.@: MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved for :
Copies of letters, telegrams, cables, and memoranda, exchanged between the government and the authorities of the Grand Trunk Railway Company, or the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, regarding the new Transcontinental Railway project, including the eastern division thereof ?	.
He said [DOT] Mr Speaker, before the motion is carried I would like to add to it the words 'since the last session of parliament.'
gir WILFRID LAURIER. I may 'say to my hon. friend (Mr Monk), before putting this amended motion, that I brought forward all we have upon this subject. Indeed there is nothing else.


Mr MONK.: I have not seen the return. Does it purport to cover everything absolutely ?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Yes.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: If it does not I would press my motion because I ask for every communication of every nature whatever.


Wilfrid Laurier: I brought down everything upon the subject.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: My right hon. friend may understand that he may have deposited on the table of the House everything that he considered necessary or essential, but, this motion goes farther. Does my right hon. friend's report cover everything ?


Wilfrid Laurier: I brought down everything without any equivocation at all, that we have on the subject.
Motion withdrawn.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Then I will withdraw the motion.
Motion withdrawn.


GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY SURVEYS AND EXPLORATIONS.
Mr.  F. D.@: MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved for :-
A statement of all sums expended since the first of October, 1903, on surveys and explorations in connection with the eastern division o the new Transcontinental Railway the name and occupations of the parties to whom sucu sums have been paid.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Frederick Debartzch Monk: Nothing in regard to brand'1 lines ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Nothing in l'e' gard to branch lines or the main line.
Motion withdrawn.


MONTREAL TURNPIKE TRUST DEBTEDNESS.
Mr.  F. D.@: 
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY-EASTERN DIVISION.
Mr.  F. D.@: MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved for :-
A copy of all reports and documentary evidence obtained by the government since last session, in connection with the eastern division of the new National Transcontinental Railway, as well as of all correspondence referring to said new route over said eastern division.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have the same answer to make to my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) in reference to this motion. There is nothing in the records of the department upon this subject. We have no reports at all.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Am I to understand that there has been no report obtained, no documentary evidence of any kind since last session in regard to the eastern division ?


Wilfrid Laurier: Nothing at all.


William Stevens Fielding: No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I am informed there been no interest paid since 1895.	*


William Stevens Fielding: My recollection lSAp(j. there has been no interest paid since .g. There has been no interest in recent 9


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
1.	Copies of all letters, telegrams,
ions in writing and correspondence, " g0V' he government, or any department ol 1 rnment, or any minister, deputy minis1 e0^e^' :ers or other persons acting for the B^,orKs' nent, and the Vancouver Engineering jimited, or any official or other pers eniar£e or the said company, respecting	co*s '
nent of dry dock facilities on the tionS
2.	All letters, telegrams, communica g0y
vriting, and correspondence between rnmeI1(j irnment, or any department of the 6® jjg, *specially the Department of Public *	a0dA ,
he Department of Marine and Fisher '0{ tn fhompson & Company, or any memo
William Paterson: 
MONTREAL TURNPIKE TRUST-MOTION FOR ABOLITION.
Frederick Debartzch Monk: That the Dominion government, having a controlling interest in the Montreal Turnpike Road Trust, should enter into negotiations without delay with the provincial government of Quebec, that has jurisdiction over said trust, with the view of obtaining the abolition of the present system of toll-gates existing on the island of Montreal.
He said : By this motion I desire to call the attention of the government and the House to a reform which is very desirable, and which though it may be local in its scope, interests a very large number of people in the district of Montreal. The toll-gate system in the neighbourhood of Montreal is replete with so many abuses, that it behooves this government as well as the government of the province of Quebec, to address themselves towards remedying the evil which exists. The turnpike toll system in the neighbourhood of Montreal is a system which has become thoroughly obsolete, and which does not obtain, I believe, in other parts of Canada or in the United States. That farmers, and gardeners, and people generally who have dealings with the city of Montreal can only enter the city by paying toll. It is true these tolls are not excessive ; it is true that under the present system of administration they are necessary in order to obtain sufficient funds to keep the roads in a thorough state of repair. Be that as it may, the system is antiquated and the toll-gate has become a worn out institution. So far as I know, the old-fashioned system of toll-gates lias been abolished everywhere in the United States, and I think I am safe in saying that they do not exist in the vicinity "of Toronto. People who drive around the mountain of Montreal and who come from other parts of the country, are surprised that we have not long ago abolished the toll-gate system. That system, such as we have it in Montreal, has been established a long time. In fact, I think the legislation which governs the present Turnpike Trust dates from before the establishment of responsible government in our province. The subject of reforming that system has very often been discussed at public meetings and in the public press, and is under discussion at the present time throughout the island of Montreal and even beyond. I have taken some interest in this question since I entered parliament. because it interests the county or Jacques Cartier to no inconsiderable extenr. Previous to the existence of this parliament

I have myself. On the trust itself, there are men like Mr. Galibert, the president of the trust, who is well versed in matters of this kind. Mr. Thos. Trenholine, of Montreal West, has given that matter special study and will certainly be competent to propose some solution to the government. Mr. Richard White was, for several years, president of the trust and has much practical knowledge of the subject and there are no doubt other men whose names could be suggested to the government who could without much expense and within a very short space of time lay before the government an improved scheme for the administration of the roads upon the island of Montreal tending to the immediate abolition of toll-gates, and the safeguarding and the giving of more popular character to the interests concerned, giving to the administration a stronger representation and giving general satisfaction throughout the city of Montreal and the counties interested. I have no doubt that could be done by a commission of one or of three appointed upon an understanding between this government and the government of Quebec, and could be done in a short space of time and at very little expense. I might mention for the information of my hon. friend the Minister of Finance that several years ago there was a question of the abolu-tion of the toll-gates. The matter was discussed by the turnpike trustees themselves, and X have been informed that at one time the city of Montreal was disposed to pay one-quarter of any sum that would be required to keep the high roads upon the island of Montreal in good order. I think, myself, that the negotiations might very properly be renewed between the trust and the city of Montreal, or at any rate, the possibility of the city sharing an even larger proportion of the expense necessary for the maintenance of these roads might be looked into by the commission of inquiry X have just suggested to my hon. friend, because I believe that it is in the interest of the city of Montreal to pay more than one-quarter ol' the sum required. I believe that the city of Montreal is more capable of contributing towards that expense, naturally, than all the other municipalities, and I believe it has also more interest in doing so. It hi in the interest of the city of Montreal that the roads, the important avenues in the vicinity of the city should be kept in first-class order, should be pleasant and agreeable to drive upon and should be at all times available without any tolls to people coming in from the country as well as to visitors and Montrealers themselves driving into the country. The farmer, the milkman and the gardener, as my hon. friend knows, must recoup themselves for the tolls which they are called upon to pay from their customers, and the carters, who in large numbers drive out from the city of Montreal, do not, as far as my experience goes, pay these tolls to oblige their fares, but they take them out


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 
Frederick Debartzch Monk: I hardly think that my hon. friend (Mr. Prfifontaine) who has just taken his seat has fully understood the object I have in view. No doubt, any municipality in the county could say : We will take the road and keep it in repair, and abolish the toll-gates. But they would have to pay $4,000 a mile for the road-


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: If my hon. friend will allow me-they will have to pay $4,000 a mile for the road if they wish to be relieved of paying the . interest. But that is not what has happened. The municipalities have assumed that the road has cost $4,000 a mile, and they have assumed to keep it in order and pay the interest at the rate of 4 per cent on $4,000 a mile. That is what they undertook to do twenty-five years ago.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think the hon. gentleman has forgotten that it is stated in the return that ' on the following roads the municipalities paid 6 per cent on the value of the road, say $4,000 a mile and keep up the roads.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: That is exactly what I say.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: In Hochelaga they pay $262. 73. This arrangement may be made in such municipalities as Hochelaga and St. Louis de Mile-End, but where would the money come from to maintain the long roads outside the city ?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: The municipalities there -would do the same thing.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: But the municipality of St. Laurent would have eight or ten miles of road to keep in order for the people of Montreal but would receive no money from Montreal for the maintenance of the road. My hon. friend sees that that would be eminently unfair.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I wish to put a question to my hon. friend. Does the city of Montreal receive anything from those who pass on the roads, the taxes on which are commuted roads in such municipalities as Ste. Cunegonde, St. Henri, St. Louis de Mile-End and Maisonneuve ? They pay nothing.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: They pay taxes in the city of Montreal. But my hon. friend must see that there is no proportion between a municipality like Montreal with a valuation of $200,000,000 and St. Laurent with a valuation of $800,000. The idea is that, as everybody or. tiie island used the roads, there should be a system of contribution by which everybody would pay.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: If my hon. friend will allow me, I think that the municipali-



ties that have acceded to this arrangement have a population of certainly three-quarters of the whole island of Montreal.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: But the arrangement does not work, for, as my hon. friend knows, it gives rise to a great deal of difficulty. I have received a letter dated 25th of March, from the corporation of Westmount by its secretary, which says, in part:
There are about two miles in length of the road of the trustees of the Montreal Turnpike Roads situated in Westmount on which the tolls were commuted some years ago, since which, time the trustees have done nothing to maintain the road though they object to sell it to the town alleging want of authority to alienate.
X do not wish to pursue this further ; but my bon. friend will see that, with the system he suggests, the poor people would pay for the rich, and the moment a piece of road is handed over to the municipality the trustees lose control of it. It is well enough in the municipalities in the neighbourhood of Montreal. But when you come to a long piece of road outside the city it is not reasonable to throw the maintenance exclusively on the municipality, as in Lachine and St. Laurent. The people of Montreal use these x'oads more than the farmers, and if you abolish toll-gates you -would have no revenue. The roads would have to be maintained by the municipality without any fund to draw upon for their maintenance. I would like to say one word to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), who has asked me to abandon this resolution. He says that the Department of Finance and this government has no control whatever over that body called the Montreal Turnpike Trust. Does he remember that the Dominion names three trustees and that the policy of the body is, therefore, under the absolute control of the Minister of Finance ?


William Stevens Fielding: I did not say we had no control, but I said our interest was only the interest of a creditor.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not dispute that. But we have the legislation, giving the bondholders absolute control of the corporationnothing can be done without the consent of the bondholders. If you go to the government of Quebec, they will tell you : we have the minority in that body, and everything we may decide is subject to the higher decision of the Federal government. That is why I think it is in the power of this government to control not only the administration of the body itself, but that change in the direction of the abolition of toll-gates which was the object I had in view in moving this motion. I do not think it is reasonable for my hon. friend to ask me to recede from my motion under the circumstances. It would be admitting that the suggestions I have made are addressed to the wrong parties or that they are not worth urging, and I cannot do that.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 


William Stevens Fielding: 
Frederick Debartzch Monk: It is not the negotiation^, am suggesting. I do not see how I can " draw the motion.


William Stevens Fielding: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it in order, Speaker, for the hon. Minister or 1 p0lcel>
to move that motion, having already once or twice ?


William Stevens Fielding: I have spoken o0^ original motion, but I could not hav on the amendment, for it is 00 y moved.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
William Stevens Fielding: We need not	oJS,sr,
you for a decision of the point, M1'- Jve t& some other hon. gentleman can n amendment.	jaji<J


Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister °f Revenue).: 
Wilfrid Laurier: I have listened with great attention to the remarks made upon this subject by my hon. friend from Jacques earlier (Mr. Monk) ; but I am sorry to say that after having listened to him once, twice, or three times this afternoon. I still fail to know exactly what he wants, and

I do not think there is any man in the House who knows exactly what he wants. There is this difference between this road and the transcontinental railway, we know what we want and we ask for it, but my hon. friend does not know what he wants.


Mr. COCHRANE.: The right hon. gentleman did not know what he wanted, and he has only found out lately.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon friend from Jacques Cartier has pointed out the evils from which he thinks the people on the island of Montreal are suffering. Upon that we are all agreed. He has pointed out that the system which now prevails for obtaining access from the island to the city is obsolete, out of date, antiquated. Upon that we are all agreed also. But, he has not pointed out the remedy which he thinks should be applied. He says : You are the creditors and you ought to do something. But the government tells him : We have no jurisdiction in this matter, we are simply the creditors, we have advanced money and we have not received any interest upon It. We are quite ready to modify the preseut arrangement if a satisfactory proposal is made. I would ask my hon. friend what he thinks ought to be done. My hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Pre-l'ontaine) has suggested that perhaps a good basis for settlement would be the adoption of the arrangement which was made some twenty, years ago when other municipalities similariy situated-the municipalities of Mai-sonneuve and Hochelaga-made a settlement which was the natural one to adopt; that is to say the municipalities interested hi these roads and which are traversed by them should assume the jurisdiction and care of these roads as all municipalities do.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: And stand all the expense alone ?


Wilfrid Laurier: That is another question. But here is the difficulty which justifies the amendment of my hon. friend the Minister of Inland Revenue (Hon. Mr. Brodeur). My hon. friend from Jacques Cartier objects to the municipalities taking over the roads. His reasons may be good or bad, I do not know. I do not examine them at the present time. But it strikes me, and I suppose the friends of my hon. friend would agree with me, that the most natural method by which to achieve a settlement of this question would be that all the municipalities interested and which are crossed by these roads should assume jurisdiction over them and do as municipalities generally do-become responsible for the maintenance of them. But my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier does not want the question to be settled in this way. Then, what is the method by which he wants to have it settled ? He has spoken for about two hours, but he has failed to tell us what he wants. He points out the grievance, but


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Mr. CLARKE.: Is that a loss ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I say we have reduced our claim by that amount, and so far as the people of Canada are concerned, they have lost their investment to the extent of 50 per cent. And now we are asked to give away the balance of the investment, because this motion invites us to go to the provincial government with a view of abolishing the toll-gates on the island of Montreal. We are asked to abolish the toll-gates which, provide the source of revenue from which the people of Canada may expect some day to be paid, in part at least, for their investment. That is the plain proposition as it is put to us, and it is for this House to say whether or not it will accept it. I have a toll-gate system in my county, and why should I not have the benefit of such a proposition as well as my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier ? The hon. member for Levis (Mr. Demers) has the toll-gate system in his county, and why should he not have the benefit of It also ? Where is this going to lead us to ? Are we going to build roads of certain sections of the country and relieve the people from the obligation to which other ratepayers are subject, to maintain their own roads ? Where is the equity of this thing 1 I would point my hon. friend to the fact, that under the law winch provides for the creation of these Trusts, the person who owns property fronting on these roads is under the obligation to com-

mute his road tax, and as he is relieved from the obligation of maintaining the road he is obliged to pay an amount equal to the amount he is relieved from as a result of the maintenance of the road by the Turnpike Trust. The law requires that the owner of the frontage on the road should pay this amount. Have these gentlemen ever paid ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not know.	[DOT]


Charles Fitzpatrick: I do not believe they have. They have been relieved of the obligation to maintain the roads all this time, and it seems to me it would be unfair to the people of other parts of the country if these gentlemen were now relieved of the obligation to pay any toll or rent whatever for the money which has gone into the construction of these roads.
But, independent of that, we have absolutely no jurisdiction to deal with this matter. The provincial legislature alone can absolutely and exclusively determine the conditions under which these people are to be relieved. It was decided by the Privy Council in the case of Belleau and the Queen, that the provincial legislature has exclusive jurisdiction in these matters.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The motion asks you to enter into negotiations with the provincial government.


Charles Fitzpatrick: What are we to ask the provincial government to do V Are we to ask the province to assume the debt, or are we to say to the provincial government:	You take over these roads
and we will relieve you of the obligation to pay any portion of the interest? Does my hon. friend from Grey (Mr Sproule) endorse that ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I say that we have a mortgage on this property which is depreciating in value year after year, and I say that as the holders of the mortgage we have a right to commence negotiations to try to get what we can out of that property.


William Stevens Fielding: That is not what the motion proposes.


Charles Fitzpatrick: There is the province which is the mortgagor who owns the property, and there is the party of the second part, the people who live in the district and benefit by the roads, and who are obliged to pay the tolls ? Why do not these parties who are obliged to pay the tolls go to the province, and say : Relieve us of this obligation, and, if the province applies to us to know the terms and conditions of the release we are prepared to negotiate for that purpose. That is a sensible way to go about it, but there is no sense in coming to this parliament in the first instance. It seems to me, that is an elementary principle. The only relief my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) can get here is to have us abandon our clainr to these bonds, so as a result his constituents may be relieved of the obligation to pay these tolls.


Charles Fitzpatrick: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: railway commission. They would, I presume, expect to have filed' with them a statement setting forth the grievances. They would then be in a position to go into the case. There have been many complaints in the western peninsula in late years against the railway service, and perhaps, if these various complaints were grouped together, the commission might hold an inquiry in the district, thus saving the expense in the bringing of witnesses.
One would think, from reading this letter, that the idea of the hon. minister was that the complaint should be sent on to some other person. But why should the mayor of the town of Walkerton or any other private individual be obliged to go to the trouble and expense of laying charges before the Railway Commission ? Did not the railway company make a contract with the government for carrying the mails, and is it not the duty of the Post Office Department to see that the company lives up to its contract ? It may be said that it is useless to bring this matter up at present, as the winter is almost over, but it is quite possible that similar conditions may arise before this House is again in session, and I would like to know whether the government considers that it is the duty of local municipalities or private individuals, when they find that a railway company is not living up to its contract, to see that the company is made to carry out its obligations. It does appear to me that it is the duty of the Post Office Department to see that railway companies live up to their contracts for carrying the mail.


James Sutherland: I regret exceedingly that owing to indisposition, my hon. colleague the Postmaster General is not able to be present. There can be no objection to this motion, but I think my hon. friend will find from the correspondence that the department made every effort possible, under the extraordinary circumstances prevailing, to have the mails delivered regularly. I notice that my hon. friend has not suggested that anything more could have beep done than was done by the department to have the mails more expeditiously delivered. The storms this winter were worse than any perhaps ever experienced in the past, and I do not think that the section referred to by my hon. friend has suffered much more than many other parts of the country. Prom my own knowledge, I believe that the officials of the Post Office Department made every effort possible to serve the public interest, and I am confident that my hon. friend will find when the papers are brought down that the department was not in any way to blame for any delays.


Mr. JOHN TOLMIE (West Bruce).: 
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Why was not &at done for Walkerton ?


John Tolmie: 
John Tolmie: 
Mr.  T. S.@: 
S93 FA.KCH 28, 1904
[Stage Direction]
HP?®. Department did not do all that it uave done. Certainly there was no on tP- wpy the mail which left Orangeville Sundi'-day s*10u^ only reacl1 Markdale on
jjjil aay>
over a distance of only forty-four I,,.,..s' Surely it does not take two and a ,< days to drive forty-four miles.
a
Parties
have driven from Mark
half
dnjp't sau)e time in n t0 wk*-hin a few miles of Orangeville earn1* of one day, but every mail that is nn,Was two or three days late. Dundalk Basso fifteen miles from Markdale, and daip en®ers °n the train drove over to Mark-the S°t there twenty hours ahead of tWeen+i ^0U couId drive quite easily be-effo,./1 the two places, but there was no to eJ m?de by the Post Office Department Post- PPite the mails to the various village offices.
Wr't?AVlD HENDERSON (Halton). The has';,Ia?ni!)ei' for West Bruce (Mr. Tolmie) this 1 given the House to understand that its fll?,rnment is only prepared to support f in the way of providing mail ac-What Ration. Because, practically, that is he hanne hon- gentleman told us. He said vi«e to iT, ?.ifflcmty in securing a mail ser-Heai'bv	.'town in which he lived and those
llruc/' whereas the hon. member for East that sp,,a.llew member, appealed to secure tvav n V1ce and was told to go to the Rail-
^ommissinn	fvof rrrli n 4* f ll n
'*''IlQj'r) 1	w
hon. 'very cleverly at once did for the j'ogret th * I?au from West Bruce. Now, T this so ft, it; tias come to this, that politics the dijf ai' 6ntered into the administration of ffito thPletlt departments, more particularly sh°ui,l , Postal department, where there !eeeive a,° Politics at all, that a man is to *le a from day to day simply because a Co>iStit„PPOl'tei' the government ; but if a gentjp fncy does not choose to send here O. favourable to the government, I/ i-fie mvi -°* tllat riding are to be deprived , hfi wn„,.nai'y mail service day after day Now
w'^oer /,*,

'ifty I c intliihU^1;- H^derson)? What I
inaission to get what the Postmaster
1, 11 Wem-	niau service day alter
6l' for .'. after week. Now, the hon. m 01 West Bruce-
P^h^^HE.
>ber
May I correct the
hon.
said
hstrupti the Postmaster General had given hwi tlie train,*l~ *lis inspectors that, whentr ' the rntllMS were not able to carry the „ Possible .	8 should be carried by team,
llstituenpytTesPective of the politics of the
^^l^gDERSON. I am still further sur-iven ordered n °*cials of the government, thnt knew !iby tPe. Postmaster General, so thp they	Policy of the government
Wl,?° 0M„1.,ni|*y gave instructions to have . "hob - as cniT!p,i	___ ..l.,,_
those ridings
Send i
so t^hinent °, House supporters of the ;iWalat eveiit|Seems to 1)6 !l fixed policy,
inspectors were made
huffier'f * - But why ' does" not the hon Lucknow ,We-st Pnnce
secure the service Lucknow is in the constituency of the hon. gentleman. But there is a reason. The hon. member for West Bruce knows that, in the next elections, Lucknow is to be transferred to East Bruce, and he will have nothing to do with it.
Mr. A. T. THOMPSON.: The relief of Lucknow.


David Henderson: And the hon. gentleman (Mr. Tolmie) can say to the people of Lucknow : X have no interest in you, and you can get your mail service any way you like. I am unable to see why the Postmaster General could not furnish mail service to these people when' there was no difficulty in the way of the ordinary traveller when the train became stalled, leaving the train and driving even sixty miles over the roads of the country which, we were told by the hon. member, were comparatively good. There is certainly something wrong here, and I hope that the Prime Minister will look after his Postmaster General, and will see to it that the next time that hon. gentleman goes down to Mexico in the middle -of winter he shall leave better instructions to his officials than seem to have been given to the inspectors in the western parts of Ontario.


Mr. T. I. THOMSON (North Grey).: There was great dissatisfaction in northwestern Ontario with the mail service this winter. Of course, we must admit that the winter has been exceptionally severe. Still, I must say that the town of Owen Sound, from which I come, has a very clear grievance against the postal department. That town has. a population of 12,000. Yet, on one occasion it was without a mail for no less than six days. The service was complete as far as Meaford, on the Grand Trunk, eighteen miles from Owen Sound, and there was a stage service twice a day between Owen Sound and Meaford. When it was found that the Canadian Pacific Railway could not get through to Owen Sound, it was clearly the duty of the department to send by way of Meaford. Had this been done we could have had our mail regularly. The Toronto newspapers displayed sufficient enterprise to send by way of Meaford, and we received the papers daily. The mail was even sent by road seventy miles from Shelburne, and we received it two or three days late. Some of our mails came even eighteen days late. It can hardly be wondered at if we say that such a service is not very satisfactory. X am glad the hon. member for East Bruce has brought this matter to the attention of the government, for there is a decided grievance which ought not to be allowed to recur.


CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
On the Order being called :
Resuming adjourned debate on the proposed motion of Mr. Lancaster, that Bill (No. 3) an
[Stage Direction]
Act to amend the Criminal Code, 1892, be now read a second time.
Mr. LANCASTER.: I suppose the hon. Minister of Justice (Hon. Chas. Fitzpatrick) wishes that to stand ?


Charles Fitzpatrick: I expect to introduce certain amendments to the Criminal Code, and one of these, I intend, shall be a clause which will not do what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lancaster) wants to do, but will go to some extent in that direction.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: All right; let this j stand in the meantime.
Order allowed to stand.



SUPPLY-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Hon.  W. S.@: FIELDING (Minister of Fin ance) moved that the House go into Com-mitte of Supply.


Mr R.: iL. BORDEN. Is the House going into Supply on Monday ? That is rather unusual.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister), Very unusual. But the order paper, so far as private members' business is concerned, has been exhausted, and if my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) is not exhausted, we can go on with Supply. If he prefers, I have no objection to adjourn.


Robert Laird Borden: I have no objection, but I never knew the House to go into Supply before without notice. We had no intimation on Friday that government measures would be taken up.


James Sutherland: I beg iny hon. friend's pardon. Perhaps he was not present, but it the closing of the sitting on Friday it was stated that if the order paper were exhausted, Supply would be gone on with. My hon. friend from East Grey- .


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes. The Minister of Finance said, in reply to a question from this side as to whether any government orders would be taken up, that if the private members' business were exhausted we would go into Supply.


James Sutherland: It was in view of that question from the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), and what I took to be the arrangement, that I made it a point to be here ready to go on. Had it not been for the hon. member for East Grey suggesting it, I should have expected adjournment to follow, as a matter of course, the exhaustion of the order paper. I would much prefer to see some progress made in Supply if it were convenient to members of the House. It was not without notice to us all.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Wilfrid Laurier: We are tryifj to do better all the time ; this is a reiw } government, and we are progressing-move that we now adjourn.	S


Robert Laird Borden: 
Wilfrid Laurier: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourne 8.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, March 29,