1904-03-29

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN (Minister of Militia and Defence) moved that the House do to-morrow go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution : Resolved, that the director general of ordinance shall he paid at the rate of $3,200 per annum.
Motion agreed to.

[u'H is ffisn*** to endeavour to proceed with tn_ of the House as rapidly as possm *\n\n1\'AYLOR. It was agreed that we \xb0uid adjourn at eleven o\'clock.\na\\v*1\'\', JAS\' SUTHERLAND. I am not to Ue oi: any such agreement. I am anxious I ,^leet the wishes of the opposition, but y *10USM that probably we could run beeng^ tliose Quebec items, which have a*rt* f11 voted on and discussed before, \'"\'hi i, \xb0w any particular one to stand to ,U(\'h there was any special objection.\nt0INGRAM. A good many of us had O\'clo Clld comniittees this morning at ten to-in . and wil1 have to attend committees all o\'h\'ow morning at the same hour. It is "\'ho weI* I\xb0r hon. gentlemen opposite, opea 1)ave simply to listen, to wish to proper \' hut those on this side, who have to the *Se documents from time to time,, find \' Work very trying.\nthhfy ..JAS- SUTHERLAND. I do not has Hiat my hon. friend or anybody else slip g7<?\';e to attend to than I have, and I to\twilling to remain here in order\n\xb0Pposir te .business, but if my hon. friends ihg \'Jte think 1 am not justified in press-hiove ti business through, I am going to Ki\'oss, ,lat the committee rise, report pro-"nd ask leave to sit\n^othe resolutions reported.\not y)e ^elding moved the adjournment\n[DOT]\\li\'\nHouse.\ntakg1\' CasgHAIN. What business will be ^ lIP to-morrow ?\nclay\'g YIELDING. If we get through the hf\'Ss ^ cIers and come to government busi-\' e shall proceed with supply.\nat 1, agreed to, and House adjourned p.m.\n.*h,\nhouse of commons.\nWednesday, March 30, 1904.\n\xb0cl\xb0ej.X\' RAKER took the Chair at Three']
Right Hon.   S@: FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Before that motion s put, I would call the Prime Minister's at-ention to the portion of the correspondence vhich has been brought down respecting lie proposed alterations in the contract be-ween the government and the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company. On page 3 of ;he correspondence, as printed, I find this paragraph with reference to one of the proposed alterations :
The terms upon which the Grand Trunk is o acquire the common stock of the Gran^ Trunk Pacific and the liability to he incurred by such

acquisition to be fully determined and made the subject of agreement.
I presume that some such agreement has been made. Would there be any objection to including it as part of the correspondence ?
Et. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER *(Prime Minister). I have to inform my hon. friend that everything relating to this matter has been laid before the House, the letter of the president of the company, Sir Charles Rivers-Wilson, making certain requests, and the concessions made by the government.


Robert Laird Borden: There is no such agreement, then V


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Nothing more than appears in the correspondence.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Public works chargeable to income-public buildings-Ontario-Kingston military buildings -stable accommodation for field battery, $5,000.
['Nothing more than appears in the correspondence.']
Mr. CLANCY.: I think the hon. gentleman promised to bring down certain papers in relation to the erection or improvement of the buildings in the city of Guelph. Perhaps he has them now.


Hon. JAS. SUTHERLAND (Minister of Public Works).: I have the plans showing the building and improvements that have been made at Guelph, and I now lay them on the table.


Mr. CLARKE.: Has the minister a letter accompanying the plans and explaining them ?


James Sutherland: The question raised by certain hon. gentlemen opposite was that the plans made by the architect were impossible of execution, and were not being carried out. I have brought down the plans to show that these statements were erroneous, and that the work was being carried oh as stated by the department.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That statement is hardly in accordance with the facts. I think the complaint was that it was impossible 1o erect that building on a certain street, that it was impossible to carry out the plans where the site had been chosen.


James Sutherland: The ' Hansard ' shows what was said.


Mr. LENNOX.: The explanation required is this : We have the ground plans there-


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: This question is not now before the committee. In order that it may be brought up it will be necessary to make a motion.


James Sutherland: It will come up for consideration later on.


Peter Macdonald: The item now before the committee is the Kingston mili-Mr. R. L, BORDEN.
[DOT] for
tary buildings-stable accommodation field battery.


Haughton Lennox: But when the item up before, the minister promised to mav some further explanations.


James Sutherland: According ^ the wish of the committee the item was [DOT] lowed to stand. I do not bring the n* up now, because I wish to place the P* . and information in the hands of the me _
may
bers to be criticised, and that they ,gl. have an opportunity of seeing them' themselves.	~


Haughton Lennox: 
Peter Macdonald: Order. TInl item is not under discussion.


James Sutherland: The item ^ allowed to stand, and it will be again in its proper order. An item has passed can be brought up again, this item has not passed.	^


Haughton Lennox: 
James Sutherland: If gentleman will say what informal wants I will try and furnish it.


Haughton Lennox: We want to know portion of the structure that is now ^ 0id-
' bo# g'fo
dealt with is new and what portion Mr. JAS. SUTHERLAND. That is s on the plan itself.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the ministe^gtoi>
us any information about this fv military building ?


James Sutherland: 
Mr.   JAS@: 
Sageq CLARKE.: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: I think there must be a great many houses supplying sporting goods in the leading cities of Canada, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and other places, and it seems to me they should have been given an opportunity for bidding for the supply of these goods.
London drill hall and armoury, $90,000.


Mr. INGRAM.: What about that ?


James Sutherland: The estimate in the department is that this will complete the work now under contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the work supposed to cost ?


James Sutherland: 


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to know what the lot cost, what the building will cost, how many tenders there were for the building, the amount of each tender and whether the lowest tenderer received the contract.


James Sutherland: I think my bon. friend (Mr. Ingram), or one of his colleagues, asked these same questions last session.


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not care whether they were asked fifty sessions ago we are entitled to the information.


James Sutherland: The hon. gentleman says he does not care. I do care because I do not want to give the information over again.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You had better send for the ' Hansard ' and get the information.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is no object in stating that some one else asked for this information. I asked for it and it is my right to have it.


James Sutherland: The country wants to know whether it is necessary to take up the time of parliament by giving the same information two or three times over. As some of these same questions were asked and answered two or three years ago it could hardly be expected that I should be called upon to give the information again, but still, I am going to give my hon. friend all I possibly can. He has asked me, first, as to the cost of the site. The cost of the site was $25,707. The second question is as to the number of tenders. The information has been brought down. My hon. friend must see that he could not expect me to have that information definitely at this stage, but I do remember that quite a large number of tenders were received for this work. The con-


tract was let to Sullivan & Langdon, of Kingston, and it calls for the completion of the work on the 30th December, 1904.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much has been spent to date on the site and building and how much will be required to complete the work ?


James Sutherland: Up to date there has been spent $98,057.S0.


Mr CLARKE.: How much will be required to complete the building ?


James Sutherland: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: The site and armoury will cost $188,000 ?


James Sutherland: $186,934 are the figures made up by the architect.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. minister arrives at the conclusion that I was a little hasty in asking these questions and he says that simply because he furnished this information to some other hon. gentleman it ought to be a sufficient answer. We have a right to ask questions session after session for several reasons. When the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sutherland) first took control of the department certain abuses were pointed out to him, and he assured us that he would in no instance undertake any work without securing an estimate of the total cost. But we have had evidence time and again that he has not carried out that programme. The minister shakes his head, but I can tell him that in the case of the Guelph post office, the estimate was exceeded by several thousand dollars, and in Alexandria the minister paid $3,500 for a lot that was dear at $1,500, and we do not know what the cost of the Alexandria building is going to be. We would be negligent in our duty if we did not press for information session after session about buildings, the construction of which has been commenced. I have no doubt that the London armoury is like the rest, and that it will cost more than the original estimate.


James Sutherland: I do not complain that the hon. gentleman asks questions, but I do not think it is parliamentary for a member to ask questions, and then a few minutes afterwards, that another member should put exactly the same questions. I am only too happy to give any information which I possibly can.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the minister give the information now ?


James Sutherland: I have not the tenders here, but I will be pleased to hring down a list of the tenders, the names, and the amounts.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the London armoury complete now ?


James Sutherland: No, the contract calls for its completion on the 31st of December, 1904.


James Sutherland: 


Andrew B. Ingram: Are we not within rights in asking questions about this bui ing ?	. __


James Sutherland: 
Mr. COCHRANE.: 
Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr. COCHRANE. Well, you mate
a
great deal of noise and assume	1
jocular air, but I am telling you turn.0e o minictor nf thp OrOWtl and
\\'0U
were a minister of the Crown down to ask for an appropriation, I #l>. have all the facts and figures before m-jj I would not waste time lecturing the bers of the opposition : when they ^itk information they should be furnishe ^


Mr. BLAIN.: How much will the areb1 be paid in this case?


James Sutherland: Two Per ^


Mr. GILMOUR.: Have these contr*c a contract for the entire completion building ready for occupation, or wi be extra for fittings.


James Sutherland: 
Andrew B. Ingram: Does the	^
Public Works say that he gave this i tion to the House two years ago [DOT] tjJat


James Sutherland: 
Andrew B. Ingram: The minister no^ that this building will cost	t a
in view of the information we nj0lild ' two years ago it is no wonder we questions year after year.	ix0wt
of


Mr.   JAS@: last


Mr.   CLARICE@: Who prepared the plans in this case ?


James Sutherland: The architect of the department.


James Gilmour: Who is the superintendent at London ?


James Sutherland: Mr. Henry has acted as clerk of works. It is certainly a great saving to the country to have the work carried on in this way instead of by the methods adopted in the past.


Richard Blain: Is a local architect employed in every case where a building is put up in a city 1 If not, why make a special case of the city of London ?


James Sutherland: I have already stated that wherever I have had to do with the commencement of any work, my policy has been to employ an architect if there is one in the place. In some places where there is no architect, we have to employ a man to act as foreman.


James Gilmour: Does Mr. Henry get any extra pay as clerk of works ?


James Sutherland: No.


James Gilmour: He is a good man.


Richard Blain: Has a local architect been employed in connection with the Chatham armoury ?


James Sutherland: Not yet, but there probably will be.


Richard Blain: Has one been employed in connection with the Cobourg armoury ?


James Sutherland: No appointment has been made there either.


Mr. SAM. HUGHES.: Why is there no sum in the estimates for a drill shed in the town of Lindsay, which was promised, if I remember rightly, about three years ago ?


James Sutherland: The reason is that there are no new appropriations in these estimates.


Samuel Hughes: There will be in the supplementary estimates.


James Sutherland: There will be some new ones, but I do not know which will be the lucky places.


Samuel Hughes: We have been very patient. I think the minister last year said that the request would receive very serious consideration. I took that to mean that the item would be put in the estimates. I hope, when the supplementary estimates come down, we shall find a substantial sum for that purpose.

60S


James Sutherland: I stated at the opening- of the consideration of these items that owing to the lateness at which the House was prorogued last year, very little work had yet been done, and therefore we are practically revoting the appropriations of last session. The important places will all be provided for as soon as the department and the government can see their way clear to recommend them.


Richard Blain: Will the minister say at what places in the list of votes on this page a local architect is employed ?


James Sutherland: Toronto, Hamilton, Brantford, Guelph-my hon. friend -will hardly expect me to remember them all. I mentioned Halifax the other night. In most of the important places an architect is employed and, as I have stated, that is the general policy which I am endeavouring to carry out.


Richard Blain: At a uniform fee of 2 per cent'?	[DOT]


James Sutherland: Practically so In other places it may be smaller or greater. In Halifax I think it is U per cent ; but 2 per cent is about the average.


Richard Blain: I understand that the architect in the London case is clerk of the works as well. Does he get extra pay for being clerk of works ?


James Sutherland: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is an exceptional case in London. There are several other public buildings where they get extra pay. In British Columbia they get as high as $7 a day and in other parts from $2.50 to $3.50. That is something which ought to be remedied. Engaging clerks of works or superintendents on public works has the effect of prolonging the delay in building these works, because it is to the interest of these men to keep their pay going as long as possible. The clerk of works will not complain because there are not sufficient men on the job to complete it within reasonable time. That is one reason why the construction of our public buildings takes so long. Instead of getting a daily salary, these men should be given so much percentage.


James Sutherland: If I understand the hon. gentleman, he approves of the policy I have adopted in this direction.


Andrew B. Ingram: If the hon. gentleman has adopted the policy of paying so much per cent and not paying a daily wage to the clerk of works, I approve.


James Sutherland: That is what I have done and am trying to carry out.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman is to be commended for this, and I hope we will not find later that he is not carrying it out.


Samuel Hughes: 


Mr. WILSON.: What is the necessity tot having a clerk of works and a local arcn tect as well ?


James Sutherland: To what work does the hon. gentleman refer ?


Uriah Wilson: 
James Sutherland: As there is clerk of works in this particular case, I ca not give any reason why there should one.


Uriah Wilson: 
James Sutherland: None that cam remember. Certainly not in this c
Oshawa public building, $18,000.	,](j.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much is this hi'1 ing going to cost ?


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: f2'9^te-the amount of $29,941 includes the ^


Mr. TAYLOR.: Has anything bee pended on the building as yet ?


James Sutherland: No, D site has been paid for.


George Taylor: What is the size site ?


James Sutherland: S2 fee ches frontage by 140 feet deep.	^


Richard Blain: From whom was purchased ? Perhaps the hon. *
of
afld
e$'
tne
5 r
Si
he
will give us a history of the pur
rchase-


Jtr.   M.@: 

[Stage Direction]
to
Was any inforl)temh!rte to th° i?y Pftrty in Oshawa or 2o ' t° uni- ,(^ect that the government 40 Purchase this particular site
I am informed that Mr. Finnegan purchased the lot a few months before for a very much less sum than he sold it for to the government.
James Sutherland: So far as my information goes, there is no ground for the suggestion of my hon. friend from North Grey (Mr. T. I. Thomson). No information was given by the minister or by the department as to what site would be purchased.


Mr. T. I. THOMSON.: I suppose the purchase was made on the recommendation of the local member ?


James Sutherland: The local representative did recommend this site, and we received a recommendation from the local municipal council to the same effect. I know that the mayor, and perhaps other members of the council, waited upon me recommending the purchase of this site.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The reason I make the statement, is that I was informed by a very prominent resident of Oshawa that this Mr. Finnegan purchased the property a short time before he sold it to the government and purchased it for very much less than he sold it for. The hon. minister does not say that no information was given, which I take to be an intimation that information was given, that this lot was to be purchased.


James Sutherland: My information is that the owner from whom the government purchased had bought the lot a short time before.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


James Sutherland: Well, what about it ?


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: He would not have purchased It had he not had some information that the government intended to secure it.


James Sutherland: From my examination of the case, I am satisfied that the truth is quite the contrary of what is reported to the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson). However, I do not know that it is material. The site, I believe, gives great satisfaction to the people of the town and the price is considered reasonable.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In tlie case of Alexandria, there was a recommendation from the chief architect that .$3,500 was a reasonable price to pay for the site. Was there any report from the chief architect in this case ?. If not, why not ? In what cases is the chief architect called upon to send in such a letter, and in what case is that pre-requisite not complied with ?


James Sutherland: I do not know of any case in which it is not complied with. '


Mr.   CLARICE@: Was there a letter of the chief architect in this case ?


James Sutherland: There must have been a recommendation from some officer of the department. Of course, the chief architect cannot visit all the places in Canada. As a rule, in the case of distant places, we get the report of some district officer. I do not know which officer certified in this case.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the hon. minister remember the tenor of the report of the officer ?


James Sutherland: I do not remember. It must have been favourable or J would remember it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was some other site purchased first ?


James Sutherland: Not to my knowledge. Several sites were considered, though I cannot remember about them now.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. member for South Ontario (Mr. Ross) is in his place. Probably he could give us information on the subject. If a public building were put up in my constituency I should be ready to give any information to the committee that I could, and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ross, Ontario) is so genial always, that I feel sure he would be willing to oblige us.


Mr. BENNETT.: Before the hon. member rises, I would like to ask a question. How far is this site from the Western Bank, which, as I remember, Is on the corner of the principal street and a side street ?


Mr. WILLIAM ROSS (South Ontario).: The site selected is one block east of the Western Bank, which is on the main cross streets. There were practically three available sites, one was one block west, one was one block east and the other one block south. This site was chosen as the most desirable, and I still thins: the choice was a wise one. Of course, there may be differences of opinion about that-people living in the south or in the west may think that a mistake was made. But, I think that, taking it all round, the site was well chosen and, considering the price that lots in that part of the country have been selling for, the price paid was a reasonable one.


Mr.  T. I.@: THOMSON, is the post office not to be in the town ?


William Ross: Yes, one block west of the main cross street.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The hon. gentleman spoke of lots in that part of the country.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. member tells us that three sites were talked about. Would he tell us at what time this discussion of sites went on ?


William Ross: I think it [DOT]was after the estimate was brought down


Edward Frederick Clarke: showing that we were to have a pub1 building.


Andrew B. Ingram: That is, during last session ?


William Ross: I think so-


Andrew B. Ingram: 
William Ross: I cannot g" that information.	^


William Humphrey Bennett: 
William Ross: I am
aware of it.	,
,	for


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon.	member	.fiSouth Ontario	(Mr.	Wm. Ross)	is	not	a.
to say whether Mr. Finnigan ptu'ch , this property during the discussion ot j three sites. Will he undertake to say Mr. Finnigan did not ask him what the government was likely to select [DOT]


William Ross: I cannot t what Mr. Finnegan thought or what body else thought. I did not tell hlin'Tefer no communication with him-and he asked me.	g


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: 
William Ross: I an 9a.r that there is no foundation whatev r f0. the statement made by the hon. men ^ <tir North Grey (Mr. T. I. Thomson). ^ satisfied of that from my own kn*
of the transaction.	,.


William Humphrey Bennett: 
William Ross: Yes, there is. It is now a private dwelling, but it was previously a doctor's residence for 25 or 30 years. Let me say to the hon. gentleman that according to my recollection the lot is not over ten or twelve doors from the present post office. The present place is as valuable as any in Oshawa. Regarding the opening of a new post office in South Oshawa, there are only two blocks between the Cockburn block and the property acquired by the government. All the properties that were considered in connection with the matter were but one block from the absolute centre of the town, and Dr. Cockburn's property was only one block south and this property was but one block east, and then there was a property one block west. These are practically the best available sites.


William Humphrey Bennett: I have been in Oshawa and know a little about the town. Now two blocks from that back corner takes you away out of the active business portion of the town. The very fact that three or four different sites have been under discussion, as the minister states, and the fact that this lot was acquired only a little time be-

fore it was bought by the vendor, and the fact that it is openly denounced by this newspaper and not commended by the other paper, allow a fair inference that there has been a very strong political pull exerted.


William Ross: The hon. gentleman is wrong when he says that it has not been commended by the other paper, because the other paper has commended it. But whatever it may say in connection with the matter, I still maintain that a large majority of the people of Oshawa are in favour of the site which has been purchased by the government. I am sure there is no better site to be found. If you take one of the four corners in the central part of the town it would be much more expensive. There is in my opinion no better site in Oshawa than the one that has been purchased. It is on the corner, 82 feet 5 inches by 140 feet. It is a splendid location for the purpose of a public building. The town is growing in the direction of this site. Down west of the four corners it is only half a mile. The town is extending towards the east, and factories are to-day going up in the eastern, and southern and north easterly portions of the town.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: May I ask the hon. member if the Liberal newspaper commended the present site as strongly as it did the appointment of the present postmaster ?


William Ross: The hon. gentleman does not want an answer to that, does he ?


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Was the site purchased from a party named Finnigan ?


James Sutherland: Yes.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I would ask the member for South Ontario how far this location is from the business street ?


William Ross: It is on a business street, and it is only one block from the four corners in the central part of the town.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The ' Vindicator ' says it is a calf pasture.


William Ross: Don't believe all that the ' Vindicator ' says.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I should suppose that this paper would represent public opinion to a large extent. This lot has 80 feet frontage, I understand, and over $3,000 was paid for it, and now it is called a calf pasture by one of the papers of the town. In fact no matter how you look at it, it presents an ugly face. The fact remains that Finnigan purchased this property a short time before. He must have had some knowledge that the government intended to purchase that property.


James Sutherland: Would the hon. gentleman kindly inform me how much he paid for it.


William Humphrey Bennett: 


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: If you will let W question stand for a short time, I will S the information.


James Sutherland: I am inforn# that the gentleman who bought this P1 perty paid quite a large sum for it, and sold the best part of it not a bit over 1 rata what he had paid for the whole P perty. I merely asked for the informal' for my own use.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: If the hon. minis**!, will allow this matter to stand for 24 ho *
I will promise to give him the informati


James Sutherland: It is not ^ important enough matter to justify the , gentleman, in asking to have it stand.
Mt\ T. I. THOMSON;. II suppose ^ would not make any change but it is as s of the country to know on what condiu (j. property is purchased for government hi j, ings. There is something in connection ^ this purchase which is disagreeable and ^ well to ventilate it. I do not know t11 joCiil hon. minister is responsible, but if the i $ member is, his constituents should K
it.


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: YeS- ^{t1 Mr. CLARKE. May we have that jy; Mr. JAS. SUTHERLAND. Cel'tf""(,s 4l'!


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: 
James Sutherland: Information as to what ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Information as to the statements he made. If the hon. member is anxious to have the statements made by my hon. friend from North Grey implemented, why not accept the proposition and allow the item to stand for 24 hours ?


James Sutherland: There has been no reason given why this item should stand.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. minister a mined e ago charged my hon. friend from North Grey with making statements that cannot be substantiated. My hon. friend has asked for time to bring documentary evidence and to give further proof or fuller information as to the statements he has .made. It is not an unreasonable request. If the hon. minister desires to give my hon. friend that opportunity, he should allow the item to stand.


James Sutherland: Allowing the item to stand does not give him an opportunity. If he has the slightest information to bear out the statements he has made, I will give him an opportunity in the proper way. I will give him a committee of investigation so that he can place the information before that committee. We cannot satisfactorily discuss the matter on the floor of this House. I will give him an opportunity of availing himself of the constitutional, the proper and the parliamentary method of proving his statements.


William Ross: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson) stated to the committee that he was informed by a reputable citizen of Oshawa, of certain things. I have no doubt he may have been informed of certain things in regard to this matter, because there is no question that the selection of a site for a public building costing $20,000 or $25,000, in a town will affect certain people in a certain way. One will want it in his direction and another will want it in his direction, but if the government has obtained the proproperty for $2,900, which is just within a block of the front street, 82 feet 5 inches by 140 feet and a corner lot, that property is cheap at the price.


Samuel Hughes: How much did Fin-nigan pay for it 1


William Ross: I do not know what Finnigan paid for it. There is no question but that some people are disappointed in Oshawa. The Windicator' that has been referred to is disappointed, because, if the building had been placed south of the four corners, it would have been almost next loor to the 'Vindicator' office. As the representative of the riding, I have no hesitation in recommending this site to the government for the purpose of a post office. In connection

with that newspaper which has been quoted in th [DOT] House to-day, I would say that I have been slandered and vilified by it and that it has regarded with unrelenting suspicion absolutely everything that has been done in that riding. I have tried to do everything as fairly and squarely as I could. Under the circumstances I cannot see any reason why the item should stand. If any hon. member has anything to bring up about it, I shall be very glad to have it investigated in the public accounts committee, or before a special committee, or in any way that may be desired.


William Humphrey Bennett: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ross) did not see fit to quote his own newspaper ' The Ontario Reformer ' because he could get very little comfort out of that. It pleads that the public should not pay any attention to these attacks on the purchase of the site by saying :
If, as alleged, the site for the post office cost too much, may not the lot have brought too little money ?
That is a most pathetic appeal. It does not attempt to defend the site as being a central position and it makes only a weak hearted plea that the price is not an extravagant one.


Richard Blain: Does the minister intend to employ a local architect and a clerk of works for this building 1


James Sutherland: It is not my intention.


Richard Blain: Are we to understand that the total cost of the building including the heating and internal equipment is to be $25,900 ?


James Sutherland: About $26,000; I gave the actual figures.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You are getting it up a $1,000 already.


James Sutherland: Not at all. The exact estimate is $25,941.58 or in round figures $26,000.


Richard Blain: What proportion is to be expended on the building, and what proportion on the interior equipment ?


James Sutherland: Cost of building in round figures, $18,000 ; site, $2,900 ; heating, $1,000 ; fittings and furniture, $2,200 ; wire and electric light fixtures, $350 ; fences and sidewalks, $400 ; incidentals, $1,000.


Richard Blain: Will the heating be let by tender ?


James Sutherland: Yes.
Ottawa departmental building-new elevator for west block, $6,000.


James Sutherland: This is a revote. AVe have advertised for tenders. There is a small elevator in the west block Mr. ROSS (Ontario).
now, but it is of no use for the purpose of the departments.	-


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: I consult^ with the ministers and deputy ministers * the building, and the chief architect caJ* to the conclusion that it would be best aj most convenient to put the elevator at tD Wellington street side.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will this be the total cost ?


James Sutherland: Yes.
Mr. CLARKE What kind of elevator it be ? Will it be similar to the elevat in this building.


James Sutherland: Yes, and know the cost from our experience in . past.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Who supplied the ele vator here ?


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: We are now asking for tenders ?	.jj


Edward Frederick Clarke: The lowest tender ' get it ?


James Sutherland: Yes.
Ottawa departmental building-steel dr and rollers, shelves, &c., $10,000.	, py


Edward Frederick Clarke: Are these purchase tender ?


James Sutherland: 
James Sutherland: I do jt & personally, but I am informed ti < quite a large establishment on
'Albert stre

Parr aWa Pu^^c buildings-paving in front of lament building, tar macadam, $6,900.


James Sutherland: 
James Sutherland: I think the Printing Bureau complain that the Auditor General was slow in sending in his matter, and that after they had printed it, he was very slow in revising the proofs. I believe they disclaim the responsibility for the delay in the issue of that report. That was stated officially by the department. As to the improvements that may be necessary for carrying on the work of the Bureau, I have no doubt that what my hon. friend says is true. There has been a very large increase in the amount of work done. That applies to all the departments. From almost every section of the country applications have come to the Public Works Department either for new works or for enlargements. If the Printing Bureau is in so congested a state as niy hon. friend says it is, of course the matter will have to be taken into consideration. In any case, it would not be provided for in the main estimates, but in the new estimates for 1904-5.


Uriah Wilson: I think the trouble Is not so- much with the Auditor General as it is with the different departments in not furnishing the material early enough. There is another difficulty. I did my best last year to induce the Minister of Finance to allow the Auditor General to send out his report for each department as soon as it could be got ready. Why should not that be done instead of keeping everything back till the whole publication can be issued ? It would be a great advantage to the members to receive at their homes such portions of the Auditor General's Report as could be got ready before the meeting of parliament, so that they could make themselves familiar with the business which they would have to take up when the House met. Would not the Minister of Public Works lend us his assistance to have this done ?


James Sutherland: I think that is a matter for parliament to deal with.


Uriah Wilson: It seems to me it is a matter for the government to deal with.


James Sutherland: I will bring the; matter to the attention of the Minister of Finance.


Uriah Wilson: I would like to Lave the opinion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce on this question, as he is an old parliamentarian.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I do not think any charge of dilatoriness can be laid at the door of the officials of the Printing Bureau. The cause of delay can be ascertained by inquiry as to the date when the last revised proof was received at the Printing Bureau. I agree with my hon. friend, however, that the officials have riot room to do their work as expeditiously as it might be done. With regard to the delay in the issue of last session's ' Hansard,' I think the Debates Committee are now considering a proposition which will probably expedite the composition of the index. As the hon. member for Lennox says, the Printing Bureau performs an important work, and it ought to be provided with the necessary accommodation. When I last visited it, the accommodation in the bindery was nothing short of scandalous. The number of employees was more than double what should be employed in the space provided.


Mr. CASGRAIN.: I would like to say a word about the building in which the Supreme Court sits. I will not raise the question of the fitness of that building for the first court in the land ; but I will draw the attention of the Solicitor General and the government generally to the fact that there is insufficient room either for the library, the clerks or the lawyers. Some time ago we had room to work in the library ; but gradually we have been pushed out of there. At present there are only two tables at which lawyers can work, and I suppose that next year one of these will have to be moved to make room for more books. There used to be a waiting room, but that is now full of books, and it is difficult to turn around in it to get at the books. The lawyers formerly had a robing room, but that is now occupied by one of the clerks of the court. It is all very well to spend $60,000 on steel drawers and rollers, or $6,000 for an elevator to enable our hon. friends to go to their offices easily and comfortably, or $10,000 for new coal sheds ; but some due regard, I should think, ought to be paid to the needs of the first court in Canada. The judges, lawyers and litigants who go there should not be put to all the inconveniences to which they are now subject. This is a question which has occupied the attention of the Public Wprks Department for some time, but' for one reason or another the department seems unable to come to any decision about it. My hon. and learned friend the Solicitor General knows that it is an injustice, not only to the bar but the public generally, that such a state of things should continue.


Mr. LEMIEUX.: My hon. friend is quite correct in what he has said concerning the' Mr. JAMES SUTHERLAND.
inadequacy of the Supreme Court building for the business of that court. It is in fact in a worse condition than some of our com'1 houses in the rural districts. What my hon. friend says about the library is equally true. That library is altogether too small. At times its tables are crowded with lawyers unable to find suitable places in which study up their cases. I shall certainly call the attention of the government to this very important matter.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I was perfectly sel'^t in my remarks concerning the two depa ments. Parliament is entitled to know ,, true state of affairs-whether the Del*, ment of Public Works has had a cons' * ^ able portion of its work transferred to at Department of Marine and Fisheries. * is a question which parliament ough know something about.	{


James Sutherland: AVe ca"" discuss that now.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
James Sutherland: At the very moment when we reach that item.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What item ?


James Sutherland: The only item under which this matter could be discussed is the item of ' Harbours and Rivers.
Peterborough armoury, $10,000.


James Sutherland: The matter stands as it did last session. Plans are being prepared now, in conjunction with the Militia Department, and the intention is to proceed with the work as soon as possible. It will be necessary for me to ask for a further sum in the supplementaries, when full explanation will be given in regard to plans, cost, &c.


George Taylor: When this item was called, I had just risen to say that the item with reference to Ottawa public buildings was not carried. My hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgraiii) brought to the attention of the minister the question of repairing or rebuilding or enlarging the Supreme Court. I think it is the duty of the government immediately to take this matter in hand. If the Minister of Public Works is not ready to investigate it himself, seeing that this is a government doing its work by commissions, let a commission be appointed to make a full report on the future wants of the country in reference to public buildings in Ottawa. A proposition is now before the House to acquire a lot at the outskirts of the city to build a geological museum. Why such a building should be placed at the out skirts of the city, I cannot understand. People visiting the capital want to look at the geological museum, and it should be close to the parliament buildings. To-day. nearly half the city of Ottawa is rented by the government for offices. If we look for the militia department, instead of finding it where it ought to be, in the public building ; we find that it has been removed half a mile away to the house of a friend of the government who is paid $12,000 a year as rent. If that amount were capitalized, it would pay for a building almost as good as this one. And, as it is with the Militia Department, so it is in a greater or less degree with almost every other. The government have rented houses all over the city and packed them with civil servants. This kind of thing ought to be stopped, and the Dominion of Canada ought to put up buildings of its own to house its servants. The rentals that are now paid, if capitalized, would provide plenty of accommodation. Take, for instance, the building that was rented for tin-purpose of the census. No less than $6,000 a year is paid for that building. If that amount were capitalized at three per cent It would put up a building three times as large and three times as good as the one now occupied. And the same is more

clearly true of the building Rented for the Militia Department.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where is it?


George Taylor: Down near the canal. It is rented from Mr. Woods. The government pay $12,000 for a small portion of a large building he owns there. It is high time this thing should stop. The government have plenty of land for public buildings, if they desired to use it. They have Major's Hill Park, or, if they like could put up buildings along Mackenzie avenue, in the direction of the printing bureau. It seems, however, that wherever the government have a friend to whom they wish to give a sop, they rent a building from him and put a few civil servants in it. Mr. Woods must be a very good friend when they give him $12,000 a year-[DOT]-*


Edward Frederick Clarke: You mean $1,200 ?


George Taylor: No, I do not ; I mean $12,000. And there is $6,000 for the census building which is now empty or ought to be. The government is paying $6,000 for offices for Mr. Blue, Mr. Cote, Mr. Johnson and perhaps a few others. That building was rented for three years and the time is about expired. The census must be completed by this time. And, besides the rent, the government spent thousands of dollars in making improvements in the building to fit it for their requirements. This thing amounts to a scandal. Parliament ought not to vote another dollar for the rental of buildings in Ottawa. The government should put up its own buildings. They have money

well, I suppose they have not very much in spite of all they have taken from the people. But their credit is good, though politically they have much less credit than they had. But they can easily borrow money to put up buildings, and it is high time that this matter should be taken into serious consideration.


James Sutherland: I fully agree with the hon. member for South Leeds (Mr. Taylor) that we should have improved public buildings. And, so far as I am concerned, I expect to be able to make a recommendation', to the House which, I hope will be satisfactory, to put up public buildings to provide accommodation for the civil servants and save the money now paid in rentals.


Haughton Lennox: Mr. Chairman, probably we are transgressing in discussing, on this item


Peter Macdonald: I was about to call the attention of the committee to the fact that there had been such a transgression. The item on which to discuss the propriety of renting or constructing buildings in Ottawa would be an item for the renting of buildings here. Therefore I have to rule that the discussion of this matter is out of order on the present item.


George Taylor: 


Haughton Lennox: If you will allow me proceed for a moment, Mr. Chairman^
tiiB1'
would challenge this item. I notice the discussion has gone on for a long and I wish, as one following the profess of the law, to say something about subject. But I thought that, perhaps, ti ^ what had transpired, I might not be
lcwed to speak.


Peter Macdonald: 
Haughton Lennox: 
Andrew B. Ingram: 
Haughton Lennox: 
James Sutherland: The hon. gen-j tleman has no doubt travelled a great deal, and his opinion as to what would be a desirable site will receive my consideration.


Edward Cochrane: I think the first thing the government should do would be to reduce the civil service. I am sure tlie chairman will remember when the conduct of the government I supported was challenged because they had too many officials. I venture the assertion that they have got one-third more than we ever had. They have not only filled all the public buildings belonging to the government, but they have rented other buildings throughout the city in order to make places for their political friends. Instead of suggesting another elaborate scheme for spending the people's money to obtain more accommodation for a lot of hangers-on, I would advise you to turn out a lot of these men and women you have now in the public offices and who have nothing to do, and pay a proper salary to those who are left and make them do the work. I was informed by a gentleman in one of the departments that in his office the place was so crowded with officials that he could not do as much work, as he could with a far less number. Now would the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Trade and Commerce tell me that these additional civil servants are necessary because the country is prosperous ? It sounds so silly to hear them say that because the country is prosperous, because the farmers are getting a good price for what they have to sell, because the revenue is increasing, therefore it is necessary to increase the number of officials at Ottawa to the extent they have been increased. I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he sanctions that. I remember when he used to condemn the old government for having too many officials, and I thought at one time that he was honest. Now he sits there complacently and laughs when he has got all his family in the civil service getting good salaries, and while he himself occupies an office that he said was a sinecure. I remember when he was told in my presence that the office was not intended to be permanent, that when the controllers became full fledged ministers tlmt office would be abolished. Yet he was a member of tlie government who, when they made tlie controllers full fledged ministers, continued the office he now holds and which he said was a sinecure. I am sincere in this matter, I think it is disgraceful that public men should occupy such humiliating positions.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We want a little more information about this item. -


James Sutherland: The matter is practically in the same position ns it was when, the vote was taken last session. Plans are now being prepared.

St. Catharines drill hall, $20,000.


Mr. LANCASTER.: What position is that in at the present time ?


James Sutherland: A site has been procured. Some years ago a site was offered by the city of St. Catharines and the contract was let for building a drill hall. It was found that the site was not at all suitable for such a.building and after negotiation with the city a new site, and a very good one I think, has been obtained. The/ contractor who had the contract before would not carry out the work at the price. Some changes were required by the local military people. After the plans were prepared and the estimates made the total cost was found to be a little over $85,000. I believe the plan is a very fine one and very satisfactory to the militia in every respect. This vote is for the purpose of proceeding with the work.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Have new tenders been called for, or is the original contractor to go on with the work ?


James Sutherland: No, I am waiting for this vote to be in a position to call for new tenders.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Then the work will progress as fast as possible.


James Sutherland: Yes.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is it the intention to have it superintended by a local architect V


James Sutherland: That is my intention.
St. Mary's public building, $10,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What about this ?


James Sutherland: No action has been; taken in this matter.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No site ?


James Sutherland: No satisfactory site has been secured.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No plan?


James Sutherland: No plan except the general plan. It is not customary to prepare the plan until the site is secured. The plan depends on whether the site is a corner lot or otherwise.


Richard Blain: What is proposed to be expended here ?


James Sutherland: I should judge $20,000 or $25,000 would be the total cost of this* work.


Edward Cochrane: Here is another of these cases which I think is something we should not allow. I sympathize with the hon. minister in the rather hard position which he has to occupy, but I do not think that any minister should come down and ask the House to give him a vote of money


James Sutherland: 
Mr. CAMPBELL.: Hear, hear.


Edward Cochrane: 
James Sutherland: 
Edward Cochrane: That word covers a multitude of sins.	,glld
. -<'6


James Sutherland: My bom J \Ve
pllai .
.... -	 -
few thousand dollars of the amountit
must give us.credit for meaning	11
say. That word * about ' means
very ^VeS^i hear the hon. member for Northum^ ttu*


Archibald Campbell: 
Plan ..: 
James Sutherland: Which one does my hon. friend refer to ?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: The one we are at now. I am sorry the hon. gentleman has lost track of the vote before the committee.


Mr. .TAS. SUTHERLAND.: I know the item under consideration, but judging from the hon. member's language, I thought he was referring to Ottawa.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Not at all.


James Sutherland: As to the St. Mary's public building, the site has not been purchased, but it is the intention to purchase it and to go on with the work as soon as possible. There is no intention to humbug anybody.


George Taylor: How much will it cost ?


James Sutherland: About $25,000.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: The minister cannot even say where the site is going to be. If he cannot give any better explanation than he has given, then I say that this thing is a bungle, and that the item is put in the estimates to satisfy some political partisan, so that the Liberals may go to the constituency, and, notwithstanding their pledges in opposition not to erect buildings in these small towns and villages, they will say : We are going to put up a building in your town. Under the system proposed by the minister, we may have a repetition of the Beauhar-nois business, where the site purchased by the government was made a matter of private speculation ; or we may have another Finnigan racket in St. Mary's, where a man purchased a site and turned it over to the government at double what it cost him. Is that what the minister wants ? It looks like it.


James Sutherland: There will be nothing of that kind.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it the intention to erect the building at the corner of Queen and Water streets, where the present post office is. or will it be built at the market square ' Where is the proposed site ?


James Sutherland: There is no woposed site. I will be glad to bring down ) list of the sites offered to the department ind show it to my hon. friend. I suppose t is within the right of anybody to throw }ut all sorts of insinuations and to suggest that a person is crooked and guilty of ail sorts of jobbery, but there should at least :>e some slight foundation for such remarks-[ do not know any transaction I bin e eve [,een connected with that can be looked Jon with suspicion, and I hope there never

will be. I am not finding any particular fault with these insinuations, because if it suits an hon. gentleman to resort to that sort of a policy, well and good. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Casgrain) referred to the Finnigan lot, but I know nothing in connection with it that the minister or any one in the department need to be ashamed of. i would be sorry to think that the slightest thing occurred to cast disgrace upon any person, and I do not believe there is any such cause for suspicion. I do hope that, so far as my conduct is concerned, there will be nothing which will bring any disgrace or shame on the minister or on the parliament of Canada. I think that when the papers are brought down the hon. gentleman will see that.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I am not going to take back a word of what I said, and the foundation for what I have said lies in the lack of information which the minister gives to the committee.


James Sutherland: Let me say that I have been most anxious to give information, and that statement that no information is given is not correct. I will give the hon. gentleman all the information in my possession, no matter what cost or work the preparation of it may entail.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Then I am sorry that the minister is not able to give information on this item.


James Sutherland: How can I give information that I have not got ?


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I complain that you have not got the information. The minister cannot tell what site in the town this building will be erected on, and he has not even told us whether this building will accommodate the post office and custom-house.


James Sutherland: The building will accommodate the post office, customs and inland revenue. I appeal to the committee whether a minister can tell what a site will cost until it is purchased. It would be silly for a minister to say that he had decided to buy a certain site before he got authority from parliament. I have always endeavoured to buy a site which was best in iho public interest and at the lowest possible price, and I have to get the authority or' parliament first.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: As to what the minister calls the insinuation I threw out, I have not said one-half, or one-quarter, or one-eighth of what the Liberals said about these public buildings when they were in opposition. This House and the Liberal press rang with denunciations of the Conservative party for erecting public buildings in small towns of 5,000 and 10,000 inhabitants. I repeat here what I said, that the minister has given evidence this afternoon that this item was pul in the estimates to help to purchase the Mr. JAMES SUTHERLAND.
constituency in which this public building 18 to be erected.


James Sutherland: I assure the hon. gentleman (Mr. Casgrain) that that 's not the intention. The intention is to carry out the work immediately and in good faith'


Andrew B. Ingram: 
James Sutherland: 
Andrew B. Ingram: 
James Sutherland: That is tU<! plan I am carrying out.


Andrew B. Ingram: Not at all. You are doing that in connection with this item-
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock-


Air. HENDERSON  .@: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: There ought to be some model plan in the department for all these buildings, from which a very fair estimate of the cost might be obtained. These buildings in towns of 3,000 or 4,000, do not vary very much in style or cost. All we have in the present instance is the announcement of the minister that the building would cost about $25,000, but no plan is ready or other information. As the hon. member for Glengarry is in his seat, I would like, with the permission of the committee, to ask him whether it is a fact that a lot much larger than the one purchased in Alexandria for a public building at $3,500, was sold in that town for $1,500, with buildings on it ? That lot is situated in the same street, on the opposite and more valuable side.


James Sutherland: or to compare property in one block with property in another block, because the values may be altogether different for local reasons.


Mr. SCHELL.: Since this matter has l een brought up-


Peter Macdonald: I must rule any discussion on this question of a piiblic building in Alexandria, as out of order.*


Edward Frederick Clarke: I take the opportunity, when the hon. member for Glengarry is present, to bring up this question as to the price paid in Alexandria.


Peter Macdonald: If the committee wishes to consider the question of a public building in Alexandria and the min-isler agrees, he can make a motion that this question be reconsidered, and I will put the motion to the House, but that matter cannot be discussed on an item which has no connection whatever with it.
Sault Ste. Marie public building, $45,000.


James Sutherland: This is to complete the work under contract.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Is this a final vote ?


James Sutherland: Yes, this is to complete the work.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: How much will the building cost altogether?


James Sutherland: 


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: What is it for ?


James Sutherland: Post office, customs and inland revenue. The reason we erect such an expensive building at the Sault is because of the large amount of customs business done there.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: What is the population of Sault Ste. Marie now ?


James Sutherland: I have not any figures since the last census. It was about 8,000 then.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: This is a very large amount to spend in a town of 8,000. Had 't been proposed in the olden days to put up a public building costing $78,000, in a town of 8,000, the country would have rung with the denunciations of lion, gentlemen opposite.


James Sutherland: I think that my predecessor in office, when he undertook this building, satisfied the House that there was a great customs trade done in that place, owing to the number of steamers calling there from the United States, and that consequently a large building was needed. The number of employees in connection with the public service engaged there is much larger, on account of the shipping, than in c ther places with a similar population.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: When was the building begun ?


James Sutherland: 


James Sutherland: On the 23f1 of November, 1903.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: When will it be finisl!' ed V


James Sutherland: In Septembe'' 1905, according to the contract.


Richard Blain: I notice that when tW* item was up last year, the hon. minister [DOT] it would cost $88,000. The hon. gentlenn ^ error is on the right side, but perhaps will tell us what changes were made ce the building to account for this differ in the cost.


James Sutherland: When tend'd were advertised for last year, the 10 j0w tender sent in was considered away D .t. the estimate of cost made by the del .t ment. The hon. gentleman must a j that, in my estimate of $88,000 last ye .ge was endeavouring to carry out my Pr0 tlI1t to state to this committee the full anlcase required for these buildings. In tbi.sQnoOO there was a difference of $20,000 or $iuwt between the highest and lowest tenders in. While discussing that, I may say ^e such a thing sometimes happens, to ^ astonishment of the experts both m .^s out of the department. There is soffi L a difference in tenders of between ^ twenty-five to fifty per cent, even m paratively small contracts.


Robert Laird Borden: 
James Sutherland: Phail, McCarty & Wright of Marip.
\{C'
Messrs. {e. Sault
Stratford armoury, $10,000.
Has that work
pee'1
f of ifl
Mr. BENNETT, commenced ?


James Sutherland: 
William Humphrey Bennett: 
James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It seems to me that this vote involves a principle which should not be adopted by the committee. In a questiou of this kind one of two things should be done. Either the minister should come before parliament and explain exactly what the department needs in the shape of these buildings, and give the committee which is committing parliament and the country to the expenditure of money, the estimate of the total expenditure involved, or, if these plans are not forthcoming, if the minister is not able to give the committee this information, he should withhold the vote until he has that information to give us. By the plan now proposed, we are simply committing parliament to a policy of putting up these buildings at a cost which nobody now can estimate. Take this item as an example. By this vote we are committing parliament to the construction of this armoury. Suppose the minister comes next year and asks for a vote of $25,000 and tells us that if the money is not granted he will not be able to go on with the work and that the $10,000 already voted have been spent in acquiring a site or, in acquiring a site and putting up part of the building and will be of no avail.
Therefore the House will be obliged as it were to vote the $25,000 which the minister is asking for. It seems to me the system is wrong, the policy is wrong, it is almost unconstitutional to commit parliament to the expenditure of this money without parliament being perfectly aware of what is going to be done with it, and what policy the government is going to carry out. I cannot understand how it is unless the reason I gave this afternoon is a reason in this instance. Probably the constituency in which some of these buildings are to be erected are close constituencies. The town ot



Stratford in which this building is to be erected I believe is in a close constituency, and the vote is being held out as a bribe to the electors. They are told in the next election : If you do not vote for the government candidate the next time we sit in the House we will not give you enough to go on with the work. What hon. gentlemen condemned so much in the party which sits on this side of the House now, they are doing themselves, and doing to an extent greater than the Conservative party did it when they were in power. They are again going back upon the pledges and the oft repeated declarations which they made in opposition, and this is simply another instance of their inconsistency.


James Sutherland: My hon. friend, in order to make an argument, has supposed a case which does not exist. The facts are quite opposite to what my hon. friend supposes.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It seems to me the position is this : The hon. gentleman came before the committee last year with a certain item in the estimates, then he comes to the ' House this year and says : Well last year I got this voted, but I did not do anything with the money because the plans were not forthcoming. Now he comes before us with the same plea. What is the use of having this item in the estimates at all ? Why does not the hon. gentleman wait until the plans are made and until he knows what he wants to do before putting these items in the estimates ? It is simply wasting the time of the House. Last year the position was the same as it is this year, and next year the position will be the same again, unless we have an election in the meantime.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In the preparation of these estimates the minister would save the time of the committee if he were to put in parenthesis the estimated cost of -each work. Take this item for the Stratford armoury, estimated to cost from $78,000 or $80,000. If this information were put in parenthesis we would have an opportunity of knowing what the work was likely to cost and the time of the committee in asking for information would be saved. I agree with my hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) that we should have the policy of the government further developed before they put these votes in the estimates at all. Why should not the government be able to say how much these buildings will cost and have the plans all ready ?
Toronto Dominion public buildings-improvements, renewals, repairs, &c., $8,000.


James Sutherland: These improvements and repairs are to be made to the examining warehouse, the custom-house, the inland revenue building, the Union station and stations A and B. iMr. CASGRAIN.
Toronto drill hall-additional accommodation for new corps, $20,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What progress has bee* made during the past twelve months ^ supplying this additional accommodation *


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: Why could not the 10 provements have been carried) on ?


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: My \nf friend knows that it was brought to ^ attention last year and I had a vote ^ in. The engineer of the department ce out in the country for some time, bu:Y1ttcr his return I have been pressing this m* upon the attention of the officers 0 ^egit department. I do not think there has any delay.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The site is there. Mr. JAS. SUTHERLAND. Yes, but
til
work could not be started probably. in next month. There has been no dc * as far as I could influence the matte * plans are under consideration, and 0p. if a few days they will de decided >


Mr. KEMP.: 
Albert Edward Kemp: Will the item stand ^	^
posed to extend the present


Mr.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND, friend (Mr. Kemp) would
There


James Sutherland: ' nJa another vote in connection with t

In the suppleme
Mr. KEMI mates ?


Mr.   JAS@: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: 
Mr T.: 
Albert Edward Kemp: Is it the intention of tlie bon. minister to hold this item over ?


James Sutherland: Either strike it out or pass it.


Albert Edward Kemp: It seems to me that this is one of the most important items in the estimates. The post office revenue from the city of Toronto is larger than that from the city of Montreal. This is the most important post office in the Dominion, and I venture to say that Toronto has the poorest post office building, comparatively speaking, to be found in tlie Dominion. It is a disgrace to Toronto, to the province of Ontario, and to the Dominion of Canada. Any one entering the post office to get his letters must be impressed with the inadequacy of the facilities provided for such a centre as Toronto is. The government are proceeding in regard to the Toronto post office in a sort of a patchwork way, adding a story here and making an addition there and having no wise or broad plan upon which to work. I think this item ought to stand and that we ought to have from the Minister of Public Works, or the Postmaster General, something of a definite nature as to what their policy will be in future. I would impress upon the hon. minister that this is the largest revenue producing post office in the Dominion, that the facilities are inadequate and that it is a reflection upon the country to have such a poor building and such inadequate facilities as they have in Toronto.


James Sutherland: I can hardly agree with my hon. friend that the building is such a poor looking building or that the facilities so inadequate.


Albert Edward Kemp: The interior, I mean.


James Sutherland: During the past few years very great efforts have been made by the Post Office Department to improve the postal facilities in Toronto. A great deal of money has been expended upon the establishment of the two new postal stations greatly to the satisfaction of the manufacturing and mercantile community. My hon. friend will not say, I suppose, it was done altogether for the purpose of pleasing the supporters of the government, because, I think he will admit that it was done witli a due sense of public duty. However, if my hon. friend insists upon striking this out it will delay a part of the work that we want to proceed with. It is neces-sarv to supply some of the furniture and fittings out of this vote. I may say that

I intend to ask that the next item shall be allowed to stand so that the whole matter can be discussed when the large item is under discussion, but if it is agreeable to the committee to allow this small vote to pass we will go on and complete that part of the work haying to' do with the furnishings and fittings.


Andrew B. Ingram: This is the first item that the hon. minister has rather invited the opposition to have struck out.


James Sutherland: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon. Before he said a word I explained that owing to a recent communication with the Post Office Department we were asked not to go on with the plan submitted, as they wished to advise us on changes which they considered to be in the interest of the public.	,


Albert Edward Kemp: A part of this vote would be used for the temporary work ?


James Sutherland: Changes have been made, and a certain sum is required for furniture and fittings, and you could hardly call that temporary. No money will be spent in connection with the larger scheme until explanations are given to the House.


Edward Frederick Clarke: A little over a year ago there was a contract let for work in the Toronto post office. Will the minister bring down a statement as to the amount of that contract, as to what has been expended upon it, and as to what is due in regard to it ?


James Sutherland: There cannot be any amount due or there would be a vote for it. I have not the figures here, but I will have a memorandum prepared showing the amount spent for the past year.


Edward Frederick Clarke: This item will stand in the meantime ?


James Sutherland: The next item will stand, and if the hon. gentleman is not satisfied with the memorandum, he can discuss it on that item.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I do not wish to delay the work of the committee, and if we get the information it is all we want.


Richard Blain: Last year $25,000 was voted to establish ' D ' postal station in Toronto. Was that money expended ?


James Sutherland: The money has not been expended.


Albert Edward Kemp: Why was the work not proceeded with ?


James Sutherland: I am sure that my hon. friend would not advise that the work should be commenced in the winter.


Albert Edward Kemp: Do I understand that the contract has not been let ?


James Sutherland: It has not.


James Sutherland: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: Are the plans for static11 'D'ready ?


James Sutherland: I understand they are similar to those of station ' C.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the plans were read}' wThat was the trouble in asking for tender* [DOT]


James Sutherland: 
Albert Edward Kemp: 
James Sutherland: 
Albert Edward Kemp: 
James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: We can discuss till* ^
llo\ved
under the stand ?
item that has been al


James Sutherland: Yes.
Toronto Junction public building,


James Sutherland: This will c^e plete the work at Toronto junction-total cost is $39,887.	^g,


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
James Sutherland: Yes.	gt


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was the lowest ten given the contract ?


James Sutherland: Yes.
Wingham public building, $18,900.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the v Speaker please explain this item ?


Mr. HENDERSON.: Carried.


James Sutherland: The S^jjj f5 been purchased, and the total cost $25,000.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried-
Woodstock armoury, $10,000.	. ju


James Sutherland: 
Richard Blain: Will there be any definite policy in the future in respect to that ?


James Sutherland: I can hardly
\say.


Richard Blain: The understanding in this case being that the county council will supply the site free, what will be the total cost of this building ?


James Sutherland: I cannot give the cost of any of these buildings until the new plan is brought down. I hope to have it within a few days, and then I will be able to give the information.
Guelph armoury, $20,000.


Richard Blain: Has the city of Guelph contributed a site for this building ?


James Sutherland: Yes, the city of Guelph contributed a site valued at something like $10,000, towards which we paid $5,000.
Guelph public buildings-addition to, $14,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: The other evening I stated that the sidewalk on St. George's Square, Guelph, ran directly in front of the post office, and I could not understand how the building could be extended on that side. Eor the same reason I said the building could not be extended on Wyndham street. Then, Douglas street runs close to the corner of the building, and I could not see how the capacity of the post office could be increased in that direction. Since then the plans have been submitted to the House, and I find in them an explanation which was not given on that occasion, namely, that the city of Guelph lias granted permission to the government to put a small porch on the front of the building, extending nine or ten feet from the front door. That certainly does not increase the capacity of the building or the accommodation of the officials. I have known for some time that the post office officials in Guelph have complained of lack of space, and the other evening the hon. minister justified this expenditure on the ground that it would provide one-third more room. I contradicted that statement, and I still say it cannot be true. A third story may be added to the building ; but that would provide no accommodation for the post office officials, who have to perform their duties on the ground floor. There was a statement made about an addition of some twelve feet to the building. But in the old post office you will see that there was a stairway on Douglas street and there is still a stairway on that street and a sort of tower encircling it. I cannot see how) that can give any better accommodation to the officials. It is simply perhaps making the building prettier than it was. As regards the cost, the building was a two story one with an attic before, .and it is now a three story building with an attic, and the total cost is something about $4C,-

000. In my opinion the cost of this improvement to the Guelph post office is entirely too large.


James Sutherland: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman says that the estimate by the chief architect was $30,000 and not $21,000, but he is asking us now for $42,000, which is 40 per cent over the figures given by his chief officer. While I have no objection to voting whatever may be necessary in order that we may have a first-class building, what I object to is that we should be asked to spend $42,000 on an estimated cost of $30,000. It must have been known to the department that if you add one-third to the size of a building, you will require more extensive apparatus for heating and lighting; and that is as much a part of the additional cost as the brickwork and masonry. When we ask for the total cost, we mean not merely the cost of the building, but the cost also of the additional fixtures and electrical appliances. There can be nothing wrong, I hope, in asking for that information.


James Sutherland: I understood the hon. gentleman to ask the cost of the building, not including the additional apparatus for heating and the new post office boxes, of which there will be about six hundred, and the additional electrical apparatus.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think it should be understood that when we ask for the cost of any new building, we want to know the total cost including everything. The heating and lighting apparatus is as much a part of the cost as anything else. If you, Mr. Chairman, would allow me to refer to the item for an armoury at Guelph, which we have passed, I would like to point out to the hon. minister that this item had been allowed to stand at the request of the hon. member for Wellington (Mr. McGowan) who desired information as to its probable cost. This information we have not yet got, although the item has been passed.


Andrew B. Ingram: 


James Sutherland: I think hon. friend is mistaken. I think that information which the hon. member Wellington (Mr. McGowan)	desired,	,what arms of the service were to be St that armoury. As	regards	the	;D-x explained that we could not give tn formation desired until the Militia Dey f lnent had decided on a general plan till these buildings.	e


Mr. McGOWAN.: 
Haughton Lennox: 
Andrew B. Ingram: On Douglas street ?
Mr GUTHRIE- On what we call St. George's Square-it is the main front of the huildin" That is a great improvement in the building. I remember when the matter was up in the House originally. The bon. member for Centre Wellington was the man who called attention to the fact that the building was squatty and dumpy and should have another story. I think the public will now have ample accommodation in regard to post office, customs and inland revenue.
It is true that the expense has been somewhat high, but cut limestone is an expensive material to build with ; and besides, the old fixtures are pretty well worn now having served twenty-five or thirty years. There have been new vaults added which are included in the contract price, vaults for the Customs and Inland Revenue Departments, neither department having had a vault before. Though the amount appears somewhat heavy for an old building, there was no way out of it, having regard to a building of that size on the land at the disposal of the government.


Andrew B. Ingram: What space was on the Douglas street side 9


Mr. GUTHRIE.: It is an irregular space,
I can hardly estimate it. Towards the rear of the building there is a space yet, I should think, about 12 to 15 feet at the broadest point. It is a triangular space, with a base of 12 or 15 feet running to a point on William street. The objection to building upon that was that it would depreciate the value of the property immediately to the rear of it, owned by the gentleman who represented South Wellington before my time.	[DOT]


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Speaking of this building being constructed of limestone, reminds me that tlie question was brought m* last session as regards using cement blocks in some new building that was being erected in Ottawa. The Minister of Public Works at that time said he would investigate the matter, as he would prefer using ft if it was found advisable. I would ask the minister if he has done so, and what is the result ?


James Sutherland: I had given instructions, and tlie matter is now under consideration. The vote just passed is for another year. There was a question about using cement blocks for the building of ti coal shed at Ottawa, but the chief architect has not yet decided to use them.
Mr PLAIN When this item was up for discussion last year the amount asked was *21,000. The minister made the solemn statement to the House then that if, afte the plans were prepared and the tenet were invited, the amount of the tende -


James Sutherland: My hon. friend was probably not in the House when I made the explanation some time ago. If I said $21,000 as the probable cost of the building, it is evident that there was some mistake, either on my part or on the part of the reporter, because with the papers before me I could hardly have made that statement. My hon. friend has now before him, I understand, the oiticial papers in which the statements were made, and he says that at that time the estimated cost foi the building was $30,000. The contract was $30,000 and a few hundreds over-very close. T gave that explanation some time ago. Having the papers before me it is evident that there was no intention of misleading the committee. As a matter of fact the amount voted was $21,000. There is no doubt there was a mistake, either on mv part or on the part of the reporter, in giving that as the total cost of the building. My hon. friend knows that in discussing these items there might be an honest misunderstanding in giving the cost of the building, because in some cases the architect does not always indicate the total cost of the work ; in some cases it is not customary in the first vote to estimate for heating, fixtures, lighting, and so forth, until after the building is completed ; these items form a separate contract.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to point out that this is not the original item by any means, that is a memo., because it is dated the 28tli of March of the present year. We have the record in the ' Hansard ' last year which says $21,000, and we have this memo, that was prepared yesterday.


James Sutherland: That memo, is made from the original papers.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have not seen them.


James Sutherland: I will be able to bring down the original estimate of the architect.


Richard Blain: The explanation is that if the minister asked for $21,000, he should have asked for $30,000.


James Sutherland: No, the appropriation is all right. We voted what the department estimated would be spent during that fiscal year. If we do not spend the money before the 30th of June in the year for which the vote is taken, it lapses altogether. So we endeavour to take the vote for just such an amount as, in the opinion of the officers of the department, we will be able to spend during that fiscal
Quebec-Acton Vale public-building, $12,000-


James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I understand that gea| money we are voting now is for the aJJ)j year beginning on the 1st July, i "u * . jt ending on 1st July, 1905. How long 1 going to take to put up this buildin* for? it an expensive building and what is 1


James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Is this only for 1 office ?


Mr.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND, office alone.
For
poS1


Haughton Lennox: 
Richard Blain: , tal expense is to be. In -a case involving a expenditure of only 815,000, there is no lint i reason why the whole work should Vnt 06 .completed, within the time that the te will remain available.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
Mr. J. E. MARCIL.: Mr. Chairman, in answer to my hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) I may tell him at once that I do not think I require a post office in Acton Vale to enable me to secure the support of the electors of that place. It is not for that consideration that I have endeavoured to obtain a post office for Acton Yale. I do not think, really, if I should be a candidate in the future, that the majority in Acton Vale could be more than it was in the election of 1900, because I had supporting me then most of the electors in that town. Regarding the population of Acton Vale I may say that it has been growing very much since the last census, due to the manufacturing; industries that we have built up since that time. At the present time if we had accommodation sufficient for the families of the employees that we have working for the company whose operations were commenced there last year we would need about thirty more houses. I hope that in a short time buildings will be put up and that these families will be living in Acton Vale. The building for which this appropriation is asked is not to _ be used only for the purposes of a post office. We are now talking of establishing another industry in the town and I hope that within a few days we will be in a position in connection with a new cigar factory to have a branch of the Inland Revenue Department organized there. I have asked the hon. Minister of Public Works to provide space in the new building for the Inland Revenue Department.
We have also in Acton Vale a militia com-panv of sixty-five members, and I have asked the minister to provide accommodation for the accoutrements of these volunteers. My hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) well knows that the county of Bagot has made very few claims on the public treasury, and the people of that county have in the past, as they will in the future, contributed their share to the construction of public works in other

parts of Canada. If my hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) should do us the honour of visiting Acton Vale in the near future, perhaps when the general election comes, he will have an opportunity of seeing for himself that the town is not so unimportant as he seems to think it is.
Mr. CASGRAIN!. The hon. gentleman (Mr. J. E. Marcil) has presented no argument for the building of a post office in Acton Vale. He seems to express some doubt that he will be a candidate at the next election. Are we to suppose that he will be raised to a higher sphere ?


Mr.  J. E. MARGIE@: I may be dead.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I hope not. I rather supposed that the hon. gentleman expected to be elevated to that reward which has been the good luck of so many supporters of the Liberal party who have disappeared from this arena and gone to offices of ease and emolument. The hon. gentleman says the population of Acton Vale is growing, but he is not able to contradict the statement that the present population is 1,175. The reason he gives for the erection of a public building in Acton Vale is that he expects a factory will be established and that about thirty new houses will be required to accommodate the working people. Well, there would be just as much sense in the hon. gentleman asking the Minister of Public Works to build these thirty houses as there is in asking him to put up a public building in this small town. The hon. gentleman also expects a cigar factory in Acton Vale, but surely he is not treating the matter seriously when he makes such a plea as that for a public building. Where are we going to stop anyway, if we are going to erect public buildings in towns of 1,200 population ? If there is so much money lying around, I have no objection to public buildings being erected in the province of Quebec, but even so, there are many places in the province, the importance of which renders them more worthy the consideration of the government than the small town of Acton Vale.


Mr. MORIN.: 
Thomas Inkerman Thomson: 
James Sutherland: 
Haughton Lennox: 
Mr LENNOX.: The county of Simcoe is a "large territory, with a population of about 75,000 ; but in the riding I represent, there has not probably been a dollar of public expenditure in the last thirty years ; and as regards the town of Barrie, it has a post office, but it was not erected by this government.


Richard Blain: I wish to draw the hon. minister's attention to the fact that when hon. gentlemen sitting on the government benches were on this side of the House, this was their policy, as set out in a motion quoted by the hon. minister himself.
Be it resolved that in the expenditure of public money the public interest and not favouritism should control, and that in the choice of places for the erection of public buildings for post office, custom-house, and inland revenue purposes, regard should be had to the amount of revenue collected and of public business done.
The hon. minister then made this statement : ' That is a resolution which, in my opinion, is a fair one for the country to adopt.' Might I ask my hon. friend how it comes that he has so changed his opinion ?


James Sutherland: I have not changed, but am still carrying out the same policy.


Richard Blain: I might draw the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that in that case the town had a considerable population and revenue, and the amount asked to be expended was only $5,000, whereas in the present instance my hon. friend is asking to spend $15,000 in a place where there is only a population of 1,175 and a revenue of less than $1,000.


James Sutherland: Will my hon. triend be kind enough to pass me over the quotation ?


Richard Blain: I have much pleasure in doing so.


William Humphrey Bennett: I think it is very harsh, Mr. Chairman, that we should harrow your feelings now that you cannot rise to express yourself. If I recollect rightly, the resolution which my hon. friend from Peel (Mr. Blain) has just quoted was one that was moved bv the Minister of Public Works during an all-night discussion concerning what was known as the Laprairie post office outrage. You must remember, feir, rnar discussion very well. It lasted all night long, and as the only survivor I see oppo-

site of the old brigade, you must recall how you fought that night. I know that circumstances have prevented you from joining the majority who have left the government benches to become judges or landing waiters or government officials of some description. You, Sir, aspire to something higher, and we all hope you will get it in due time. But I think that in fairness to yourself and your conscience, you should ask some hon. gentleman opposite to take the chair and give you the opportunity to rise, and impress on the country once more your hostility to these outrages on the public treasury. And if among your many friends opposite none will come to your relief, if not one of them will take the chair so as to give you an opportunity to express your indignation and horror, I am sure that some hon. gentleman on this side will be glad to take the chair and give you the occasion you must be craving for.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: What is the size of the building which the hon. minister proposes to put up ?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I am sorry that I have not the dimensions, and cannot give the size.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Have you made up your mind whether you will build the house with stone, bricks or wood 1


Robert Franklin Sutherland: With brick.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I should like to see the government put up at Acton Yale a building suitable for the size of the town. One which would cost about $4,000 would be quite adequate for a town of that size. Do not try to walk before you can creep. Wait until the population increases, and it is not by making half a dozen of cigars a day that that town should become so wonderfully big. Look at the town of Levis, which sixty years ago was a flourishing town, and which now' has a population <of nearly
8,000.	The post office in that town is a disgrace to the government. It is only 12 feet by 14 feet, and divided in two at that. It is no larger than one of the basement rooms in this building, and just as badly kept. I would approve the putting up of a building at Levis which would cost from $20,000 to $30,000, because if Acton Vale, with a population of 1,175, is to have a post office costing $15,000, surely the town of Mvis, with a population of nearly 8.000. is entitled to a $30,000 post office. I think that the hon. minister should give every place its due.
Mr. SPRCfULE. I desire to protest against the principle adopted by the government in the expenditure of public money. When in opposition those hon. gentlemen were wont to be very severe on the government of that day for spending public money in places which were not sufficiently large to entitle them to a public building, and the principle was again and again enunciated


William Humphrey Bennett: 
Mr. FITZPATRICK.: May I ask gentleman (Mr. Sproule) how many ^et there are in the province of Ontari there are no public buildings ?


Mr. SPROULE.: That is not the But there is not a county in Onta

there are not half a dozen places larger than Acton Yale without public buildings, th nay own county there are eleven, towns and villages of that kind, and I do not be-leve that more than one or two of them have ever even asked for a public building, the people do not believe that such an Expenditure would be justifiable, and they plainly do not believe that it is justifiable n the case of this town of Acton Vale.


Charles Fitzpatrick: The spirit ofl econ-my to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Premie) says Ontario is remarkable does th .aPPear in the estimates ; because we find at the proposed expenditure for public "hildings in Quebec is $254,000 while that r Ontario is $694,000.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: Does that come under public works ?


Mr.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND1. The quarantine buildings are constructed and kept in repair by the Public Works Department. This amount is in accordance with the estimate furnished by the Department of Agriculture, which includes the following items Police quarters, drainage and plumbing, $735 ; hospital fire escapes and plumbers' work, $345 ; painting superintendent's residence, $lo0; alterations to small-pox hospital, $800 ; com-nleting public works building, $1,000 ; headquarters for sailors, $8,000 ; repairs to medical officers' building, $500 ; plank walks, &c. $200 ; incidentals, $270 ; total $12,000.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I see that $12,000 was voted last year. Is this a revote of that amount ?	[DOT]


James Sutherland: This is in addition to the vote of last year. Of that vote $10,088 was expended.


Haughton Lennox: This will complete the work ?


Mr JAS. SUTHERLAND.: Yes, according to the estimates submitted by the Department of Agriculture.
Mi' LENNOX. I notice in this case the Hon. minister has done what I advocated in reference to another item-he has in eluded the fittings, fixtures, &c., in>
the vote he has taken to carry him to June 3 th.

1905. In this case we expect to spend $12,000 within that period, whereas in the >ther ease we did not expect that we could spend $15,000 in the same period.


William Humphrey Bennett: Will this work be let by tender or done by day labour ?


James Sutherland: My hon. friend will see that these are a number of comparatively small items, and on the island it would be almost imposible to get the work done by contract, and so we are having it done under the supervision of an officer of the department, by day labour.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the difficulty of getting it done by contract ?


James Sutherland: It would cost a great deal to people to go backwards and forwards. I am informed by the officers of the department that it is very satisfactory to get the work done by day labour under the supervision of an officer of the department.


Richard Blain: Will this complete the work ?


James Sutherland: This work is done on the requisition of the Department of Agriculture, under whose jurisdiction the quarantine service is. This will complete the work.
Levis public building, $20,000.


James Sutherland: We have procured a site, but it was not settled on until recently. The total cost of this work to complete is estimated at from $35,000 to $40,000. The site is government property, and did not cost us anything.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Is this the site of which we were speaking last year, the one down below' the hill ?	*
Mr. JxVS. SUTHERLAND. Yes. The building is for all government services in the town of Levis. It is rather an important place, a station on the Intercolonial, and is the chief town of that county. I think it is necessary we should have a good building there for the public accommodation.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: What is the size of the building at L6vis ?


James Sutherland: The plans are not completed, and I cannot give the exact size.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Of what will the building be constructed, of stone or brick ?


James Sutherland: The intention of the architect is to recommend brick with stone facings. It will be three stories high.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Is the minister acquainted with the location of the building ?


James Sutherland: I have been there, and remember well where the location is.


Haughton Lennox: 


Jean-Baptiste Morin: What is the size of the lo* the government is giving ?


James Sutherland: As near as 1 can remember, 160 feet by 140 feet.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Is it where the old freight shed stands ?


James Sutherland: Yes.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: That is a good place. The people deserve this building, and the SovefL merit lias been owing it to them for fifty years.


Richard Blain: 
James Sutherland: Yes, we had been negotiating.
Longueull public building, $12,000.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Has the site feeh acquired in this instance, how much paid for it, and from whom was it bough [DOT]


James Sutherland: The site *** procured from Mr. F. St. Mars for the s of $2,800. It is opposite the church, a, has a frontage of 118 feet with 85 feet depth.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
James Sutherland: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: 
James Sutherland: Mr. ^part-holds an important position in the a ment. He is a qualified land survey man of education and experience, and ^ a is not capable of making a' valuation ^ lot of land in a small town like that, not know who I can depend upon.	^


Haughton Lennox: 
Mr LEONARD.: (Translation.) Is the hon Minister of Marine and Fisheries aware that at a public meeting, including most of the citizens of Longueuil, a pi otest was entered against the selection of the site and the price paid by the government ? Besides,, is the hon. minister aware that the said property is not valued at more than $800 ; that the local member for Ohambly is opposed to its selection, and has so expressed himself at this public meeting, adding that the said property was not worth more than $1,000 ?


Mr. PREFONTAINE. (Translation).: I am surprised at the statement made bv the hon. member for Laval. I know personally of the property in question, and I may repeat in French what I stated a moment ago in English, namely, that the said piece of land is certainly worth the price paid for it, and that it was the only one available at that place. As to the public meeting to which my hon. friend refers, I am aware that a few dissatisfied people, four or five, have complained because they had not succeeded in selling their own land, I presume, for four or five thousand dollars,, while the government have been in a position to purchase for $2,800 a piece of land more suitable in every respect.
Then, again, I may say for the information of'the hon. member for Laval, that the local member for Chambly does not at all times fully agree with the federal member, and possibly is not in sympathy with the people who sold that land to the government. He would possibly have been bettei satisfied if the site had been located somewhere else. However, I may state that this property is worth the price paid for it, and that it "was the only site available in that neighbourhood-which is the most suitable and convenient for the people as a whole- without having recourse to expropriation, and thereby running the risk of paying a. much higher price. I do not know that it would have been possible to secure a similar lot at this place for a lower price. The location is a central one ; it is the nearest site that it was possible to secure. It is conveniently situated, not only as regards the people of the town of Longueuil proper, but also as regards the country people who come to town either on Sundays or weekdays.


Mr. LEONARD.: (Translation.) Is not that lot situated in the east ward, and not in the centre of the town?


Mr PREFONTAINE.: (Translation.) I fail to see what the hon. member's object is in putting that question. jt matters little whether that PrapelA? J situated in the east or , west ward , and I contend that the property Is

the most centrally situated that it was possible to secure. I am not familiar with the boundary lines of the various wards of the town of Longueuil ; at any rate, I may say once more that the site is the most conveniently and centrally located for the requirements of the people generally.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: (Translation.) What other lots were offered to the government?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: (Translation.) I could not say exactly. X know that one of my relatives offered a piece of land. He wanted, I understood, five or six thousand dollars for it. True there were no buildings, but I do not blame him for having asked such a price, as the buildings became absolutely useless and the government were left with the bare land. The lot offered by my relative was central enough, being in the vicinity of the one referred to just now.
Another lot was offered in another section of the town, but it was too far away from the business centre. Its purchase for the purpose of constructing on it a public building would have brought forth a protest on behalf of the whole community.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: (Translation.) Was the purchase of the land referred to recommended by the hon. minister?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: (Translation.) I did not recommend any.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: (Translation.) Has a recommendation been made by some other member?


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: (Translation.) I cannot say; you may inquire from them.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I quite admit that the case of the town of Longueuil is a much more favourable one than that of Acton Yale. Longueuil is a much more important place and the reason which I call for the erection of a public building are much greater than those to be found at Acton Yale, but what the hon. member for Laval (Mr. Leonard) said seems to show to a certain extent that the government is not careful enough in the valuation which it gets of these sites which are purchased for public buildings. My hon. friend says that the municipal valuation of that property is only $800, and that the local member who represents the district in the legislative assembly of Quebec asserts, and has asserted in a public meeting, that the value of this property is only $1,000. Here, we are paying $2,800 for a property which is valued on the municipal roll at $800 and is publicly asserted by an architect, a man who certainly has a reputation as being a valuator in Quebec who knows his business, to be worth $1,000. We are paying $2,800 for that property, which, notwithstanding what my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prffontaine) has said, does certainly not seem to be worth that money.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 
Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Perrault the local chitect.
Mr. PREFONTAINE
to
Mr-
I was referring - member who is an
I do not care
\vbe'

ther this statement has been made I>Y * jii-Perrault or any one else. There are :l ^jji tects and architects. Some architects give you an estimate of the cost of a 1,njid' ing at $5,000, and before you have thatA 0t ing completed it will cost you $10,On" $15,000.	^ gt


Edward Frederick Clarke: What about the vaWe his opinion as to land ?	of>s


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Land ! WWfjJ ,it
he know about it ? If he valued this $1,000 he does not know what he is
land
talk11
about.	,oD0


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
JAS- SUTHERLAND.
[Stage Direction]
LAIN. Is the plan being prepared SUTHERLAND. Yes.
Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: Is it being prepared by Mr. Maurice Perrault ?


Richard Blain: How is it that last year the minister stated that the cost of the building would be $10,000. That statement seems to be misleading.


Mr JAS. SUTHERLAND.: My hon friend will not find many instances in the 'Hansard ' where I made a statement that is not correct.


Richard Blain: There are a good many of them.


Andrew B. Ingram: The Minister of Public Works is falling from'grace.


Richard Blain: Last year the minister stated (' Hansard,' page 13070) :
This is in the county of Chambly ; the population of the town is 2,257 ; the postal revenue is $612.92 ; the building will cost $10,000. The cost of the site would be very small.


James Sutherland: I was new in the department, and I gave the figures as they were given to me, but if the hon. gentleman figures it out he will see that the statement is not far astray. Take $10,000 for the building, $2,800 for the lot, $1,000 for the heating and lighting, contracts for fittings, &c., and it will come pretty nearly to $20,000. I have explained over and over again that the chief architect in some cases gave me the cost of the building when it was asked, and not the total cost of the work undertaken. It is perfectly true, as the member for Toronto (Mr. Clarke) says, that you must heat and light a building, but there seems to have been a misunderstanding, and in many cases the information given applies to the building proper and not to future contracts that were to be let.


Andrew B. Ingram: Are we to understand that when we ask for the total cost of a building we have to go into all these little details in order to find it out ? You cannot have a public building complete unless you have all the fittings necessary to carry on the business.


James Sutherland: That is what I mean. When I was asked what would be the total cost of the work, I answered that. I was at once asked for a separate statement of the estimated cost of the building, and it was quite natural, from the custom, of the past, for the chief architect to suppose that the total cost meant the cost of the building.


Andrew B. Ingram: Are we to understand that in future, when we ask the total cost, it will be the cost of the bare walls ?


James Sutherland: No, the total cost of the work, and I have given that to-night.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We had better have a clear understanding of this point. Last



session I endeavoured to get some light on the question. On page 13071 of ' Hansard,'
! asked :	.
What is to be the total cost of this building ? Has the site been secured ? Are the plans prepared ? We seem to be going it blind in most of these eases.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend must admit that I have given that information already.
What did that mean ? The information given was that which the hon. member for Peel has just read. The minister said:
' It will cost $10,000.' That was in a place with postal receipts of only $600.


James Sutherland: It is very evident, from what the hon. gentleman has read, that it was the building that was referred to, because it refers to the cost of the site; and when my hon. friend a iked the cost of the building, the officers of the department, from the custom of the past, supposed that he meant the cost of ihe building alone.
Mr. ClARKE. I used the words ' total cost,' and the minister said that it would cost $10,000. Now we are told that it is going to cost $20,000. It would be fairer and franker for the hon. gentleman to tell us at once what it is going to cost to complete the building, including the heating and lighting, as well as the cost of the walls and partitions. It is because we cannot get that information at the inception of these votes that these discussions take place. We have had innumerable instances of that since these estimates have come up.


James Sutherland: I have explained to my hon. friend over and over again that if there was any misunderstanding, it was because the architect supposed that the information wanted was the cost of the building. However, if we are to have a better understanding, it will be my duty to give the total cost of the work to the House whether the inquiry is inade from hon. gentlemen opposite or not.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is there to be a local architect employed in connection with this work ?


James Sutherland: My policy is to have a local architect as clerk of works if I can obtain one.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understand the hon. gentleman to say that he intends to discontinue employing clerks of works unless they were paid on commission and not by the day.


James Sutherland: I have stated over and over again that my policy is to employ architects where they can be employed, and pay them, as well as others who are not architects as far as possible, on commission.	,


Edward Frederick Clarke: 


Andrew B. Ingram: This is a new work. "VVih the architect be paid on commission ?


James Sutherland: That is what I intend.


George Taylor: It is now a quarter Past 11. vV'e have done a good day's work, and I think we had better adjourn.


James Sutherland: 
George Taylor: I would remind the boh; gentleman that in the session of 1892 t House occupied from eight o'clock in 1 ' evening till three o'clock in the morning passing three items. The next item to reached we want to compare with one of ".g items on which we spent nearly the who ^ right on that occasion, and it will take son* considerable time.


James Sutherland: That K^y the party in opposition for a great nia years, and the same policy ought to lv any party in opposition.


George Taylor: My hon. friend took t prominent part in the discussion at (g time, and I want to draw his attentio ^ a resolution moved by the late Ministe Justice, the Hon. David Mills.


James Sutherland: 
George Taylor: 
James Sutherland: 

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. * SETTEE
poultry stations.
St,
Ho
asked :
HeS hy theT,P ltry 8tations
, r« are Department of A t>5	hey situated ?
6eu^?y of tv,tne net cost of these stations ? „ ltUre [DOT]>
eui show receints to enua.1 exare there op-ent of Agriculture, and
show receipts to equal
f 13* Ha "
s°lutifc,3*inister o£ Agriculture received ^oni10." favniil.:0ba Poultry Association a re-4 it Manitoba establishment of sta-
H s,,1iVe«iE-,He„Partment any reports, or have stn,, Ions been	ns t n tlio naod
orations in Manitoba?
[u'I would like to ask the leader of the governtuen what progress is being made with the vot:e .e. lists. I find that a number of members r ceived their lists several weeks ago, otbe have not received theirs yet. Will the rig ,g hon. gentleman say whether the Bureau printing those lists now ?\nRight Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURl\xae^ (Prime Minister). I am informed that P vious to the summoning of parliament lists were being printed as fast as they to the Bureau, but they did not come res larly. The summoning of parliament cessitated an interruption of the work g the printing of reports for the session. soon as this printing is disposed of, the P1 ^ ing of the lists will be carried on as us ^ and as fast as can be. Each member wu* furnished with the lists.']
Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: I must ask the hon. member (Mr. Puttee) and also the hon. member for East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey), whose question, No. 3 on the order paper, relates to the 'same subject, to move for returns covering the information contained in these questions in such a way that I may present it to the House. The answers would be .very long and would involve a great deal of work.



Mr. E. D. SMITH asked :: 1.	What quantity of apples were carried from Montreal to Europe in cool air chambers of steamers in season of 1903 ?
2.	What was the extra charge per barrel for such service ?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture) :: 1.	Eight thousand seven hundred and ninety-six barrels.
2.	One shilling and sixpence.


FRESH MEAT TRADE WITH EUROPE.
Mr. McGOWAN asked :: 1.	Have any of the steamships subsidized by the government, having cold storage chambers, been successful in transporting fresh meat across the Atlantic during the past season ?
2.	If so, what were the names of the steamers ; the quantity carried ; and the ports and dates of sailing ?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have no records in the department from which we can find anything ab*ut any shipments of beef from Montreal in cold storage chambers during last season.	
fees to McCarthy, osler, hoskin
& HARCOURT.


Mr. LEIGHTON G. MCCARTHY (North Simcoe).: Before we pass from the order of ' Questions put by Members,' I would call attention to a question standing on the order paper which has been there for some days. It refers to payments said to have been made to the firm of McCarthy, Osier, Hoskin & Harcourt. In view of the fact that the newspapers are discussing the matter, I would like to have the question put, and I would ask that, in the absence of the hon. member for East Simcoe (Mr. Bennett), in whose name the question stands, some other gentleman would put the question.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. member for East Simcoe prefers to put his own question, i think.
Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister. I may say to my hon. friend (Mr. McCarthy) that the Minister of Justice (Mr. COMMONS
Fitzpatrick) informs me-indeed, I think he told the House-that the statement in the Auditor General's Report is not correct, and that the payments had been made to Mr. Osier.
Mr. RODOtLPHE LEMIEUX (Solicitor General). I am instructed by the Minister of Justice to answer the question by saying that no payments were made to the firm of McCarthy, Osier, Hoskin & Harcourt by or through the Justice Department.


INQUIRY FOR RETURNS.
Mr. T. CHASE CASGRAIN (Montmorency).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would ask the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to a return asked for of certain bills of account, &c., relating to the mission of Mr. P. B. Savard. The papers cannot be long, and I would ask that they be brought down as soon as possible.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: It will take some time before the papers can be copied. They are very voluminous-I think nearly a thousand pages.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: If I may be allowed a moment, I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Prefontaine) has not in mind the motion to which I allude. The first motion I made was only for the accounts, and surely they cannot be spread over a thousand pages.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I thought that a question had been asked and answered! showing exactly what the amount was.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: But the order of the House is for the detail of accounts, and these are what I want.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: , Of course, as to that, there can be no delay. As to the other, it cannot be finished for some time.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I will give the hon. gentleman reasonable time for that.


DISALLOWANCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA ACTS.
Mr. H. BOURASSA (Labelle).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the government whether a report which appears in this morning's papers is correct. This report states that two laws of the legislature of British Columbia have been disallowed by the Governor General, one of them relating to Asiatic immigration into the province, and the other to the employment of Chinese labour in the coal mines.


Right Hon.   S@: With regard to the first law mentioned by my hon. friend, I could not give any information, but the law passed by the British Columbia legislature restricting Japanese immigration, has been disallowed.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


PRINTING OF THE VOTERS' LISTS.
Andrew B. Ingram: 

SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply. Public buildings, province of Quebec Mr. CASGRAIN. As several
inenihet j
from the province of Quebec are ab pyplF would suggest to the Minister of. to Works that we allow all the Quebec itei ^ pass with the exception of one, which ftJJ stand so that hon. members may ha' ^e opportunity later of discussing any 0 Quebec items when that one comes up- ^ Mr. JAS. SUTHERLAND (Minister t0 Public Works). That is quite agreeau (0
r theSf
me. But if any hon. gentleman ask any question with regard to any 0 tpe items now, I shall be willing to g1 information.
[u"Possibly it nfln}y due to my hon. friend the Minister ot yj*r lie Works, not being quite so tv- \\ with his brief as he ought to oe- }D have seen that occur in other tribune* .jigf the courts. When a man is not very ran (.pt with his brief, he sometimes says thni=s ite are not quite warranted, and does\t,fep6\nunintentionally. Of course, my hon. pe must remember that when his woltorters' taken down by the ' Hansard ' reP~ eS t\xb0 every hon. gentleman in the House \xa7 the ' Hansard ' for the purpose of oDlnll&lic information about the cost of these works. We rely upon them, ana_\tpot\nmy hon. friend says that he h miP^ time to revise the ' Hansard,' I wol,iIiat K that it should be very desirable 1 t it should revise it. or, at all events. ,g p-should be revised by some officer <>i partment. It is extremely importan pi we should have matters of this kino aj,jng accurately to the House. I am not,tba' of the revision of the ' Hansard ' ot * gtateJ in regard to verifying the accuracy P1' ments of this kind. It would PeYT 0{ tS* be too much to ask that statements g 0fp-character should be gone over by sf .pid.1 cer of the department if my hon. ivipg 11 liable to make these mistakes in S jt >\nformation to the House. Of cou ' t tb, a perfectly absurd mistake to say tg co* whole building, including the site, 1 ^pph8 only $100,000. If my hon. friend is erli9U with his brief at the present\tcf...\nhe would be good enough to tell us rpjiat l'' ,[DOT] mate has been made of its cost. e tainly should be furnished to the 1 )Ul.eiia* a very expensive site has been >'^y C and after we are committed to * siderable expenditure."]
David Henderson: 
Richard Blain: Will the minister S j some information about the Magog	is
rpotal^0 rflie
>2D,UUU. iNO action nas ueeu uUkeh 7 aild . lossible sites are under considers ^r0j-K s intended to proceed with the ;oon as possible.	...-no0
Montreal examining warehouse ind alterations,' including fitting >
fee., $18,000.


An hon. MEMBER.: Carried.	9,i, *


Robert Laird Borden: 
James Sutherland: 
Mr GALLERY.: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Public Works if he intends to do anything with the building of the Inland Revenue Department in Montreal. At present I think this building is an eyesore to the city of Montreal and that something should be done to put it in repair or that money should be provided to build a new one.


James Sutherland: In reply to my hon. friend (Mr. Gallery) I would say that there are no. new appropriations in these estimates, but the suggestion of my hon. friend will be taken into consideration, we will see what is required and if any appropriation is needed further it will be placed in the supplementary estimates.


Mr. GALLERY.: As the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Brodeur) is in his place I think he would be better able to explain the condition of the inland revenue building in Montreal than I am, and to state whether it is necessary or not to have a new building.
Mr. BICIvERDIKE. I must endorse the remarks of my hon. friend from Montreal, St. Anne's (Mr. Gallery). The inland revenue building in Montreal is old and quite inadequate for the present requirements. I believe that Montreal gets side-tracked in regard to a great many expenditures of this kind. Consideration is not given to the amount of revenue derived from the city of Montreal and 1 do hope that when the supplementary estimates come down there will be a sufficient amount placed in them to give us a respectable building for the inland revenue department.
Montreal public buildings-improvements, alterations, repairs, &c., $8,000.


James Sutherland: This vote of $8,000 is for carrying out in accordance with the subjoined estimates, the following repairs :	Renewal and repair of Dominion
public building, painting, custom-house, fitting parcel office in post office for customhouse, three stokers for three boilers and roofing inland revenue building.
Quebec immigrant buildings on Louise embankment and breakwater on King s w a. buildings, $2,000.


James Sutherland: This vote is to provide for renewals, improvements ana repairs to immigration building on Louise

embankment. There is a detail of the repairs required-plumbing, painting, hardware, lumber, labour and sundry repairs amounting to $2,044.


Robert Laird Borden: I want to have a clear understanding as to what is the meaning of the arrangement which was referred to a little while ago. Does the hon. minister understand that any discussion, which may be proceeded with now in the absence of certain hon. gentlemen from Quebec, should be proceeded with, or does he desire that the entire discussion which may arise from any of the explanations he may give should be reserved for the item which is to stand ?


James Sutherland: I understood the request from my hon. friend from Montmorency to be that owing to the absence of some hon. members we might go through these items allowing one to stand upon which any hon. member might discuss any of the items included in the vote. I do not wish any restriction to be put upon them. It should be clearly understood that if an hon. member of the House wishes to ask for any information or to engage in any discussion in regard to any of the items he will have an opportunity of doing so.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. minister has not quite answered my question yet. Does he desire that if any discussion is to take place on the part of hon. gentlemen who are here now, it shall be proceeded with as the items are reached, or does he desire that the entire discussion shall be reserved for the item which is to stand ?


James Sutherland: Whichever way my hon. friend thinks would be the more convenient.


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: The practice usually has been to leave one item over and on that it is understood that the discussion shall range over the whole series.


James Sutherland: If any person wishes to discuss any item I am quite agreeable.


Robert Laird Borden: The reason I ask is that some hon. gentlemen who had some observations to offer in regard to one or two of these items came and asked mo as to what the understanding was, not desiring to engage in any discussion that would be a breach of any understanding.


James Sutherland: I am quite willing to vary the arrangement as I understood it, if any gentleman wishes to bring up a discussion.


Mr.  T. I.@: I do not want to vary it; I want to know what it was.


James Sutherland: That is what it was.


Peter Macdonald: The proper way? would be to allow one item to stand, Mr. JAMES SUTHERLAND.
and that would leave the resolution open-If any person wishes to return to a particular item to discuss it, the minister bas promised that he will make a motion to reopen it. That would be the regular way-


Robert Laird Borden: We had better adhere to the regular way. That is the unde1' standing.


Peter Macdonald: That is tse understanding.
Quebec-Hospital tor treatment of immigrants suffering from trachoma and kindred disease3' $12,000.


James Sutherland: Since these explanations were prepared, the chief coin missioner of the Immigration Departmen ' has recommended the purchase of a P1'0 perty which has been reported upon by medical authorities as very suitable, dn cost of that property would be about 000. There is considerable land including ' building, which with some refitting 'v'g answer the purpose admirably. There wa great objection raised by the Harbour CoUJ_ missioners and merchants to this building " & ing erected on the wharf as intended, aUjg compromise has been arranged which more satisfactory to all concerned. 1^ money will not be expended as was inte ^ ed, but this property will be purchased' ,g the recommendation of the department ^ carried out, and some improvements made the building. It will not cost anything n ^. so much as if we had to erect a new bn ing.
Quebec post office, renewals, improveWe repairs, &c., $2,000.	,g


James Sutherland: This $2,000^ for repairing and painting the roof, clea,]0or, and painting office, new hardwood D i0 repairs and post office fittings, repairs ^ heating and plumbing, whitewashing cleaning basement.
Sherbrooke drill hall, $10,000.	u
, el unR


James Sutherland: This din1 tJj0 is in exactly the same position aS 1(lst several others which we discussed eJ1t night. No part of the money has been. v .0 and I will bring down full informal1
regard to it when we armouries.
discuss the
St. Hyacinthe drill hall, $15,000.	^g


James Sutherland: This Stfl in the same position as the other. ^
St. Hyacinthe public buildings, addition t0'
$18,000.	, , ar-


James Sutherland: 
James Sutherland: 
Mr.   JAS@: 
Uriah Wilson: Where is this building to be located, and how many immigrants will it accommodate ?


James Sutherland: It is to be just opposite the other building, towards the river. It is to be built at tbe request and under the instructions of the Department of the Interior, and is expected to be very much more convenient than the old building.


Uriah Wilson: These expenditures are not to be charged against immigration, I suppose?	,


James Sutherland: No, they are charged to a special vote.


David Henderson: What material is to be used in the construction of this building ?


James Sutherland: Brick.


David Henderson: I am very glad that something more substantial than the old building is to be erected. I had occasion a few years ago to examine the building used for immigration purposes, near the Canadian Pacific Railway station, and I am only surprised that there has not been some terrible catastrophe there, resulting in loss of life through fire, as the building is a most dangerous one and tlie means of escape are very insufficient. After the discussion we had last night, I am pleased to hear the minister state that $60,000 is to be the extreme limit of expenditure for this building ; for he has given us to understand- that when he makes a statement of that kind, the amount named is to be adhered to. and the instructions to his chief architect will be to prepare plans and specifications which will bring the cost of the building within the amount prescribed. I hope those of us who may be here another year, if this matter comes up again, will be prepared to hold the minister strictly to the pledge he has given us. We now know what we are doing. We are voting $60,000 for the erection of an immigration building in Winnipeg; the members of this nouse are to be responsible for that expenditure ; and the chief architect is not to do as has been done in other cases- usurp the functions of parliament and say that a larger sum of money shall be expended. I desire to impress on the minister that he has pledged himself that $00,000 and no more is to be expended on this buna-ing.


Mr JAS. SUTHERLAND.: Before the hnn. member spoke T gave instructions that

if there was any doubt ^.bout this amount being sufficient, not one dollar was to be expended until full information was had ; and the intention is to complete the building for the sum stated here.


Uriah Wilson: How many stories will it have ?


James Sutherland: Four.


David Henderson: Are we to understand that $60,000 will complete the building, including the furnishing, heating apparatus and everything connected with it ? Because that is what I understand when we are told that the building will cost so much-that $60,000 will complete the whole structure, and do whatever is necessary to put it in shape to receive immigrants and to be taken over by the Interior Department.-


Robert Franklin Sutherland: This includes everything except the furniture.


David Henderson: I am afraid there is room enough in that for the minister to do a great deal of electioneering.


James Sutherland: I do not want any such opportunity. When a building is completed, a requisition is made for what furniture is required.


Mr. PUTTEE.: I would urge on the hon. minister the necessity of not in any way delaying this work. A vote was taken last year and nothing has since been done. During this month, stormy though it has been, a tremendous lot of immigrants have gone through to the west, and there is suffering and complaints from 'them that they are not furnished with proper accommodation in the immigration building. As regards the cost, the building should be constructed to meet the requirements of the immigrants, and as they are increasing very vastly, it would not be reasonable to tie down the minister to any limited amount, more especially in view of the increases in cost of construction. On Monday, materials are to be increased again ten per cent in some lines, so that in all probability the estimate made last season will not cover the cost of the building this year.


James Sutherland: I do not think there has been any delay on the part of the department. It is only this week that we received a deed of the property, and the chief architect tells me that he has now received a sketch of the building and will be prepared to advertise for tenders almost at once.
Winnipeg military building-magazine, $3,000.


James Sutherland: The plan is not yet furnished, but the cost will be $3,000.
Winnipeg land and building for new post office, $200,000.


James Sutherland: 


Mr. W. J. ROCHE.: Has the site been selected ?


James Sutherland: 
Uriah Wilson: What is asked for a site '


James Sutherland: From $75,000 to $150,000.


William James Roche: 
James Sutherland: We have u a dozen.


William James Roche: 
James Sutherland: There are no new' appropriations in the estimates now under consideration. If there are no votes for Manitoba outside of the city of Winnipeg, it is because the works for which votes have previously been taken will be completed before the 30th June next. The remarks of my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) as to the necessities of the town of Minnedosa will be taken into consideration later on.
Mr. LaRIVIERE, Mr. Chairman, while my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works is on that question, I would remind him that there are three incorporated towns in the district of Provencker, none of which has a public building. The town of Emerson, where there is a customs office and post; office, both under rental, has no public building, and the claims of that town should certainly be taken into consideration. The town council of St., Boniface last year made an application direct to the government for a public building, but I am sorry to say that the application -was not entertained, and I hope that this year better consideration will be given to the request. There is also the town of Morris, Vhich is a very central railway point, and that town should also be considered in the most favourable way by the government. I hope that the hon. minister will see his way clear to doing something for the towns in this district.


Mr. McCREARY.: I want to endorse the statements made by my two colleagues from the province of Manitoba. That province has not received the justice to which it is entitled considering the revenue which is derived from it, as compared with the revenue received from some other provinces. In the city of Winnipeg, where I reside, the postal receipts for the months of September and October, 1902, from the sales of stamps were $12,000 and $15,000, respectively. For the months of September and October, 1903, the sales had increased from $12,000 and $15.000. respectively, to $18,000 and $21,000, respectively. Certainly there is no place in Canada, except Montreal and Toronto, where the postal revenue exceeds these amounts, and the sales of postage stamps in Winnipeg come well up to those of Toronto. So I say that the city of Winnipeg deserves any vote for extending its postal facilities which may he given. In regard to the other towns mentioned, no doubt they deserve to have public buildings, but I wish especially to mention the oldest town in the province of Man toba, except St. Boniface-the town of Selkirk,' the town which was first laid out to he the city of Winnipeg, at the place where the Canadian Pacific Railway intended to

cross the river. It was divided into lots before the city of Winnipeg was laid out. There is a population of about 3,000, and the revenues of the town are very large. The government are paying rent for a post office, customs-house and the offices of the Indian agent, the Indian inspector, the sub-land agent, the timber inspector and the fishery inspector. They have to pay rent for the offices of eight or ten different officials today, and I submit that if a $15,000 or $20,000 building were put up, the rent which is now paid would more than pay the interest on the investment. I would ask the hon. minister to place something in the supplementary estimates for the town of Selkirk. This is a town that deserves consideration although I have never urged it very strongly upon the hon. minister, but I ask for cold justice at least in regard to this particular town.


Arthur W. Puttee: The hon. Minister of Public Works will begin to see that the matter of public buildings in the west is one which, is just beginning to be an important question. But, coming back to the item under discussion, the Winnipeg post office item, I would say that it is a very important and rather contentious question as to what should be the site of this post office. Of course, the whole responsibility will rest with the hon. minister of the department, and what I would like to impress upon him is not to be too strongly influenced by the various parties who have sites to sell. It may be that there will be considerable difficulty in getting a suitable site at a fair price, or one that would be acceptable to the majority of the citizens. I believe that the present site of the post office is the one that would be the most acceptable, and if the department would increase its property there and acquire the lots adjoining, it seems to me that would cause the least upset and be the most acceptable arrangement. This was urged upon the government a number of years ago. I myself urged it in 1900, when, I suppose, the adjoining lands could have been secured at a price 50 per cent less than that which would be asked for them now. AVhile these options are before the hon. minister, knowing something of the pressure that is being applied, and knowing also something of the need of keeping the post office in a central position in the city, if it is possible, even moving "it more towards the centre than away from it, I would ask that the hon. minister see that all interests and all available sites are considered.


James Sutherland: 
David Henderson: 
Robert Franklin Sutherland: The matter of the title to the site of the post office in Winnipeg was brought to my attention only yesterday. I am having it investigated. I believe there is some condition, but I do not think it is so narrow as that mentioned by the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. La-Riviere)-that the site is to be occupied by the post office. I believe that the land was sold on the condition that it was to be used as a site for government offices. As to enlarging tbe present building, as my bon. friend from Provencher knows, that was the policy of the government. In fact I was authorized by parliament to proceed with these improvements. But a very strong protest was received from the citizens of Winnipeg, and, as I said, I had the chief officer of my department and also one of the inspectors of the Post Office Department visit Winnipeg and remain there for some time. After a full discussion of the whole matter, they came to the conclusion that the improvements that had been suggested would not be adequate, that they would afford accommodation barely sufficient for the present.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. If if is only the addition of a couple of stories I would agree to that. The post office requires more ground-floor room. If you take the adjacent lot of 50 feet wide, you can enlarge the building and Increase the accommodation very much.
Mr. ,TAS. SUTHERLAND. My information was that the lot the hon. gentleman refers to was 30 feet. I must say that my experience, and, I fancy, the experience of others in regard to enlarging a building of this description is that a great deal of the money is wasted. However, they asked $2,000 a' foot-or rather they refused $2,000 per foot.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Not per square foot.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: Well, no, hardly.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Some people pretended thsit that price had.been asked for square foot.


James Sutherland: My hon. friend (Mr. LaRivifire) is evidently not so easily startled as I am. I thought the price quite high enough per front foot. The matter was gone into with a great deal of care by the board of trade along with the officers of the two departments. I think the report made to me fully warranted me in stopping

the work. None of the money has been spent. We will save money by this plan. In reply to the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson), I am glad to know he approves of the change that has been made. As I have already explained, it is only two or three weeks since this new policy has been adopted. In a large work like this at Winnipeg it would hardly be possible to have a detailed plan ready so soon. In the opinion of the chief architect a suitable building cannot be put up there for less than $250,000 or $300,000.


David Henderson: Does that include the cost of the site ?


James Sutherland: No, exclusive of the site.


David Henderson: Then before we take concurrence on this item, perhaps the minister will be able to make a definite statement as to how much money he intends to spend on the Winnipeg post office ?


James Sutherland: I will try to.


Robert Laird Borden: I would suggest that the minister, in the erection of this post office, should take into consideration the future development of the city of Winnipeg, that he should have regard not only in the erection of the building itself, but also in the selection of the site, to the future of the city. Winnipeg is beyond doubt destined to be a very great city, and it would be injudicious, I think, to select a site which would not allow for extension in the future, or to erect a building now which would not subserve the purposes of a very great city. I understand that no site has yet been selected, although the options have been obtained. I presume before this item passes concurrence, we will be able to get not only -the information which has been asked for by my hon. friend from Halton, but also information as to the site which will have been selected, because that might require some discussion.


James Sutherland: I hope before this item comes up for concurrence, unless it comes much quicker than I expect, I will have that information. Of course we intend to make a building that will meet the requirements of a large city.
Winnipeg military buildings-quarters for non-commissioned officers, including guard room, &c., $6,000.


James Sutherland: This is a revote. No work could be done on account of the weather. The total cost of this work, I understand, will be $12,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it a new building ?


James Sutherland: It is an addition to the existing building.


James Sutherland: 


Robert Laird Borden: How is the work t0 be done ?


James Sutherland: By contract.


David Henderson: 
James Sutherland: I think m ve of the change of policy, we will not this vote. Some temporary change* tile been made, and some improvements t rg-meantime. Whatever money we "W quire for that purpose, if we hav jo enough, I will ask for in another vo ' ucl; the meantime I move that this vote he
out.


William Forsythe McCreary: 
Mr.   JAS@: SUTHERLAND, new votes in these estimates. * . j6i v

decide upon what changes are desira (p what improvements are to be m_ad sl'P old building. We will then ask, m ,vetbi!l plementary estimates, what amount will be required to do that work. ^


Arthur W. Puttee: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and.item sti'lC

[Stage Direction]
-°nWt Territories-Calgary-addition to D T?'ning warehouse, changes and additions to st office fittings, &c., $4,000.
James Sutherland: This is a re-,to make provision for constructing an mention 30 by 40 feet, two stories high, to e examining warehouse.


Robert Laird Borden: e<>st
Mr. 'ANOASTER. What was the total
sJAS. SUTHERLAND. The contract dr,m. b- The total cost including the t VJOls>
fittings, &c., will be $68,846.63.
^as cell


Edward Arthur Lancaster: How many prisoners is it supposed to accommodate ?


Mr JAS SUTHERLAND.: I think I will have" to get that information from the Justice Department. I see theie are 14 cells.


Mr LANCASTER.: Are they made of gold bricks to cost this enormous sum ? What is the building constructed of ?


James Sutherland: Brick.


William James Roche: Two years ago the minister stated that this was to accommodate 40 male prisoners and 15 female prisoners, and that he would not ask more than $20,000 or $25,000 for that building.


James Sutherland: Who stated that ?


William James Roche: The Minister of Public Works.


James Sutherland: The then Minister of Public Works.


William James Roche: In 1902 the minister stated :
I do not intend to spend more than $20,000 or $25,000 on the jail. My officers tell me that we cannot build a jail for that money exclusive of the site which has cost $8,950. Of course I do not bind myself against the opinion of my chief architect, but it seems to me that for $25,000 we can build the jail.


James Sutherland: I find that I made a mistake. There are 14 cells on each of the three floors.


Robert Laird Borden: When will it be completed ?


James Sutherland: The contract was let on the 5th of June, 1903, and it is to be completed on the 20th of May, 1905.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose building is more expensive in Edmonton than it is in the east, but even so, it is a rather large expenditure for a building of the size indicated.	[DOT]


James Sutherland: The best guide to that, I suppose, is that there were quite a number of tenders, and the lowest was very much lower than the highest, and it was accepted.


Robert Laird Borden: One would suppose that a building of that kind would not cost, in the east, more than $15,000 or $20,000. Of course we must make some allowance for the greater cost of material and labour, although I am informed that the bricks are mnrlfi on the SDOt.
jr JAS SUTHERLAND. In a building this kind a large part of the expense is the iron work; but I can assure my hon. lend that, considering the prices o iterial and labour and the size of the lilding, the tender, compared with me her tenders, is quite low.


Robert Laird Borden: When will the building be completed ?


James Sutherland: The contract calls for its completion in May, 1905.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there a courthouse in Edmonton ?


James Sutherland: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: The jail must be on a very much more elaborate scale than the court-house.


James Sutherland: Yes, very much. I think it is the intention of the Department of Justice to establish a penitentiary there.
Macleod court-house, $1,500.


James Sutherland: This is to complete the contract. The total cost is $22,875. That includes the building, boilers, fittings and furniture, fences, sidewalks and the total finishing of the work.


Robert Laird Borden: 
James Sutherland: This vote was taken for the purchase of a site, but the town has given a site worth between $5,000 and $6,000, and this vote will be used for going on with the work. I shall be able to submit the plans, specifications and estimates of cost with the supplementary estimates.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Can the minister give us an idea of what the total cost will be ?


James Sutherland: It will be
$20,000 or $25,000.
Prince Albert court-house and post office, $15,000.


James Sutherland: The information required to complete the plans and to give the estimates has not been received from the Department of Justice.


Richard Blain: I would like to draw the minister's attention to the fact that! in many cases there is altogether insufficient land purchased by the government for these public buildings. I think the government, in view of the growing condition of Manitoba, the Northwest Territories and British Columbia, should secure ample land for public buildings. In the older parts of Canada you often find a public building which has cost $25,000 or $30,000 erected on a very small site ; so that it contributes little or nothing to the appearance of the town for the amount of money expended. In some cases the building covers every foot of the site. Another point, to which the minister might direct his architect's


James Sutherland: 
James Sutherland: 
Robert Laird Borden: Why are the P0^ office and court-house in one building [DOT] seems a strange combination.


James Sutherland: In tbeft places, which are growing very fast>
is difficult to rent offices, and it was s gested that in this instance the post otn^ might be put into the court-house hu ing, by adding an extension, without 111 terially increasing the cost.
a
Red Deer court-house, lock-up, &c., anu office, $10,000.	,


David Henderson: Where is Red Veet '


James Sutherland: 
William James Roche: been let ?	^


James Sutherland: 
Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEN of the be the


James Sutherland: tion But it hardly seems possible for us to erect armouries of this kind everywhere. An armoury costing $26,000. and intended for the accommodation of two companies of from 40 to 60 men each would seem to be rather excessive in its cost. Possibly the dimensions are too large. I must confess that I hardly see how it would he possible for that number of men to use, to any great extent, a building so large as this amount should provide. I am not speaking of Ross-land alone, but I have in mind the armouries in a great many other places in the country.
I have thought sometimes that we spend a little too much money on armouries and, perhaps, not enough on the force itself. I realize that we must have accommodation for the men engaged in the active militia, but that accommodation should be on a reasonable and moderate scale. It would be impossible to erect a $26,000 armoury for *every two companies. I do not know how near to Rossland the other two companies ore. If this armoury would answer always, or for any considerable period of years, the wants of other companies, that might put a different aspect on the case. But I do not know how near the headquarters of the other companies are, or to what extent those companies can use this armoury. I think perhaps the Minister of Public Works might give us a little more information on that point. I entirely concur in what he has said as to the class of men who are engaged in the active militia, not only in Rossland, but throughout the west. At the same time that does not justify us in being too lavish in the construction of these armouries, either in the west or in the east. I have not observed the armouries in the west, but I have observed some of those in the east, and, as I say, I have sometimes thought that perhaps we are using a little too much of our funds in that way.


James Sutherland: There is one fact that will explain a great deal in connection with this item, and that is that a building of this character would cost twice as much in the district in which it is to be constructed as it would be ln any part of eastern Canada.


Mr. GALLIHER.: Further to satisfy the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden), as far as possible, I would like to say that, as he well knows, in the western part of the country-in other parts of the west as well as in British Columbia-the conditions are such that we cannot get outside drill. In such towns as Rossland you have to drill winter and summer in the armoury. Practically, this is a drill shed as well as an armoury. At the time when the appropriations were made for the other four companies at four different points-


Robert Laird Borden: Where ?


William Alfred Galliher: One at Nelson, one at Kaslo, one at Kamloops and one at Revel-

stoke. When these appropriations were asked for, a request was made also for a drill hall at Rossland. But the title to the land had not been procured, and so this appropriation was not passed at the same time as the others. I stated in the House at that time that I would bring the matter up at the next session if the title in the meantime had been procured. The idea of building this armoury larger than any of the others was that there would be two companies at Rossland and that, as has been the practice in the past, the different companies might come together once or twice a year from different parts to hold a sort of field day, as it were. Each of the other companies, as I have stated, has its own drill hall, the buildings having been completed and being now occupied. .We would like to have other companies there, in fact other places have been applying to be allowed to organize companies, but so far the Militia Department has not seen fit to increase the number of companies in that district. Grand Forks, Greenwood and, I think, Fernie, made the same request. As the minister has said, building there is much more expensive than in eastern Canada, costing at least from 50 to 60 per cent more. To provide accommodation for the two companies and for the purposes of a central meeting point, as I have suggested, it is necessary to have a building of the dimensions proposed in this case.


Robert Laird Borden: Are they infantry companies ?


William Alfred Galliher: Yes ; they have gatling guns also, which would be stored in the armoury with the accoutrements.


Robert Laird Borden: What was the cost of the drill halls in Kaslo and these other places V


William Alfred Galliher: Outside of Nelson, I think they will average $6,000 or $7,000. The drill hall in Nelson is a brick structure, and cost about $14,000.


Robert Laird Borden: It would seem to me that, as a drill hall, this cannot be of very much service to the other four towns mentioned, because they have their own drill halls, and also because they are situated at considerable distances from Rossland according to my recollection.


William Alfred Galliher: Only in the way I have stated, for meeting together generally, as they do once a year. There is only one company at each of these other points, Nelson, Kaslo, Revelstoke and Kamloops, and the idea in putting up this large building is to accommodate the two companies at Rossland, which will probably be the headquarters.


Robert Laird Borden: Where does the commanding officer live ?


William Alfred Galliher: The district officer commanding is at Victoria.


William Alfred Galliher: ===58


Robert Laird Borden: 
William Alfred Galliher: 
Robert Laird Borden: Who is the officer commanding, and where does he live?


William Alfred Galliher: 
James Sutherland: Is there also a lieutenant-colonel in connection ^ the organization ?


William Alfred Galliher: Yes, Mr. McDonnell- 1 think.


Robert Laird Borden: 
William Alfred Galliher: 
Mr. EARLE.: yet ?


James Sutherland: Yes, the has been purchased for $52,000.	^


Robert Laird Borden: What is the stfe the site, and where is it situated ?	.


James Sutherland: 
Robert Laird Borden: 
James Sutherland: I one valuation, for a lot perhaps % o favourably situated as this, the fe Commerce paid $45,000 for only

frontage, while we have 156.


Mr.   MACITIERSON@: 
Richard Blain: What other public buildings have .the government in Vancouver ?


James Sutherland: Under the department there is only one public building, I think.


Mr. MACPHERSON.: There is the post office and the armouries.


Richard Blain: There was an item voted last year of $60,000. May I ask the hon. minister if that was expended last year ?


James Sutherland: That was for this same site. We are revoting $8,000.


Richard Blain: I understand that. This is only for the post office ?


James Sutherland: Yes.


Richard Blain: When this matter was up last year the hon. minister made a statement in regard to it and perhaps it would be well if I were to read what he said :


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It will probably cost in round figures $100,000. The city is growing very last and accommodation to about that extent is required. We are now paying very heavy rentals and I think it is a good business proposition to have all our offices in one building in Vancouver.
What is the explanation ?


James Sutherland: I do not exactly catch the connection. It Is perfectly true that we are paying heavy rents in Vancouver. What about the $100,000 ?


Mr BLAIN.: I cannot catch the connection either. When the Vancouver public building item of $60,000 was up last year my hon. friend made the statement.


James Sutherland: Read it again.


Richard Blain: I will read it again.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It will probably cost in round figures $100,000. The city is growing very fast and accommodation to about that extent is required. We are now paying very heavy rentals and I think it is a good business proposition to have all our offices in one building in Vancouver.


Robert Laird Borden: It is for my hon. friend to explain that.


Mr JAS. SUTHERLAND.: Yes. tt Is rather difficult. I do not understand ti statement at all.



707


James Clancy: This is not tlie only one that the hon. gentleman cannot explain.


James Sutherland: I am pretty nearly always right in my statements. Very often in the discussion of these items, I cannot hear lion, gentlemen clearly and they cannot hear me. and it may be possible that in discussing these items in a conversational way, the reporters may not catch exactly the statements that are made.


James Clancy: Oh, oh.


James Sutherland: 'Well, I am speaking in earnest. I am net asking for any favours from the hon. gentleman in regard to this matter. If the statement is there, I cannot explain it. It must have been a mistake ; that is all. My hon. friend must know that there is a liability to errors of this kind. Have I ever shown a disposition to misinform the House in regard to giving it information ? If the quotation is made it is certainly a mistake. I could not have made any such mistake as that and I would not come here and give a- figure which I knew would be contrary to what was expected and which would be unreasonable. There may be times when there may be differences in the figures that are given for reasons which are quite understandable, but this statement is quite unreasonable.


James Clancy: I think that the committee has not at all dealt harshly with the hon. gentleman. People are usually let off on the first offence, sometimes on the second and sometimes on the third, but that does not condone the hon. gentleman's offence in any way. Statements have been made by the hon. gentleman-I am not going to say that he made these statements in an attempt to deceive the House-which have disclosed a looseness, a carelessness, and an utter disregard of exactness and correctness on the part of the hon. gentleman's officers, if they were speaking through him to this committee. This is no doubt a serious state of things, and I have no doubt that the hon. gentleman probably spoke at that moment from information which was given him ; but his information was faulty on that occasion and it has been faulty on many other occasions. It has been urged with great reason that the hon. minister in seeking to get his estimates through should give only such estimates as may be carried out and if he is unable to carry out these statements, *he should come back and get a new mandate before he expends one dollar of money. The hon. gentleman will surely not show any temper. I do not think he has any good reason to do so, because, over and over again during the sittings of this committee, it has been pointed out that he has made statements, which, without being construed in harsh terms, may be said to have shown him to be acting in bad faith.


James Sutherland: 


James Sutherland: 
Robert Laird Borden: 
APRIL 5, 1901 709
[Stage Direction]
C'Osf1' I SUTHERLAND. The estimated ligl, Jf this building is $200,000 in round piat an(I my instructions are that the ticcorrtare 1:0 'Je completed and carried out in by tli IlCe ,w*th the amount as estimated pw„ officials as being sufficient to com * e cue work.
Ij' BORDEN. May I ask the hon. cost nf1!,Aether that includes simply the or .... joe building and the cost of the site, fitthws ler also includes the cost of a no	sueh as lighting, heating, furniture
ltems of that character V
SUTHERLAND. That included «vervti,-atlng>
lighting, and substantially does .A.?? required in the building, but it t mclude the site.
fUl'hiture v' BORDEN. Does it include the
hitur'e SUTHERLAND. Yes, the fur-e a« Well.
resolutions reported.

[Stage Direction]
LAURIER. When the
th
lei'e iiru- hri,vate Bills was called, the Bills
In,. u°t DrinfoO i..,i T _____	
ey
*hy hon Printed and distributed, and if tfht, Wp "'ieud (Mr. Borden) will con-ll6y Biavi 1 take UP that order, so that ' [DOT] he advanced a stage.
<VU\ r
'	' BORDEN. I have no objection
SECOND readings.
r^®rp^a: JI) to incorporate the Pontiac and hoop °vihcial Railway Company.-Mr. Mc-
^hUlton*' p2-1. resPecting the Brantford and Rill ailway Company.-'Mr. Calvert
C^ai "	
Printed, but I am informed that

ffi'thy
Sin
(No Ooi	.
*iio resPecting the Colliugwood anti Marine Hospital.-Mr. Mc-
IllSurin^p ^ respecting the Canadian Eire

Company.-Mr. McCreary, ana	incorporate the White
«*o. 25
'l°Pliercil5 Alsek Railway Company.
p. "lei?son.
^ ^ill t
to incorporate the Edmonton.
R
1,'-'~Mr. oliy( ''lackenzie Railway Coui-

<N0.
ver.
tC' EharoJi resPectiiii
'hh'neo _u. °f Sir Wilfrid Lauder, House
0„ ,
Mp-Ot.
the Real Estate, st Con and Iberville).
vruai*or,+ -Liu? iveui jejune,
6ls (St Toh, an<^- l?rust Company-Mr. tioi
23j<a at 5-45 p.m.
house of commons.
Tuesday, April 5, 1904.