1903-10-05

Mr. SCOTT asked :: X. Is it required by law or regulation that mortgage deeds, such as are executed to safeguard the purchasers of the bonds of a railway company, shall be deposited in the office of the Secretary of State?
2.	Is the mortgage deed, executed in favour of the trustees for the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway bondholders, and is the mortgage deed executed in favour of the trustees for the Calgary and Edmonton Railway bondholders. so deposited in the office of the Secretary of State ?

3.	If so, does the mortgage deed relating to the Calgary and Edmonton Railway indicate that the money to construct the road was obtained by ' sale of the land grant and the sale of the bonds,' or does it indicate that such money was obtained by sale of bonds only ?
4.	Is it stated in such mortgage deed and in the bond certificates, that the bonds are secured by conveyance, by way of mortgage, to the trustees of the company's railway, with its revenues, &c., including an annual subsidy of $80,000, * it being, however, expressly understood that the subsidy or land grant from the government, excepting as it forms an actual part of the company's line of railway, shall be excepted from the operation of the said mortgage and shall form no part of the security for the payment of the said bonds or the interest thereon ' ?
5.	What amount of money was obtained by the sale of the Calgary and Edmonton bonds, and what sum of money was actually expended in construction of the railway ?
6.	What area of land was granted to the company under its Land Subsidy Act, and to whom was such land actually granted or patented ?
7.	What proportion of the land grant, if any, was utilized in aid of construction of the rail-v ay ?
8.	Who obtained the portion of the land grant, if any, which was not so utilized in aid of construction ?
9.	If any such portion as mentioned in question 8 was obtained by the Calgary and Edmonton Land Company, what persons compose the said Calgary and Edmonton Land Company, and who are the officers of the company ?
10.	In the aforementioned mortgage deed is it recited that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company should, after notice, have an option, on July 1, 1896, to redeem all the bonds at ten per centum premium on the face value, to the extent of $18,500 per mile, and acquire the capital stock of the company ?
11.	W'hat was the amount of the paid-up capital stock of the company, and of such amount, what proportion was paid in cash ?
12.	Has the attention of the government been called to section 6 of the.twenty-second annual report of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, which recites that the said Canadian Pacific Railway Company have made arrangements to lease the Calgary and Edmonton Railway for ninety-nine years, guaranteeing in rental 4 per cent per annum on the Calgary and Edmonton Company's debentures, amounting to roughly $5,500,000, and to purchase all the capital stock of the Calgary and Edmonton Company for the sum of $500,000 ?
13.	In chapter 84, 53 Victoria. ' An Act to incorporate the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company,' does the name of Edmund B. Osier appear as one of those originally incorporated as the company, to which, by chapter 4, 53 Victoria. was voted a land grant of 6,400 acres per mile for 340 miles of railway, and to which, by chapter 5, 53 Victoria, a further guarantee of $80,000 per annum for twenty years was voted ?
14.	What amount of money was obtained by sale of Qu'Appelle. Long Lake and Saskatchewan bonds, and what sum was actually expended in construction of the railway ?
15.	In subclause (e) of section 1 of an agreement betv'een the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Company and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, confirmed by chapter 82, 53 Victoria, is it recited that the former company ' shall not issue any bonds secured, directly or indirectly, on its land subsidies or any portion of such land subsidies, except so much of
408	.
those lands, if any, as shall be actually taken for the line of railway and stations'?
16.	By subclause (c) of section 3 of the aforesaid agreement, is it recited that * it is understood and declared that the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and iSaskatchewan Company may transfer one-half of the land subsidy from the Dominion government, from time to time, as it shall be earned, to any person or persons, as it may deem proper '?
17.	What area of land was granted to the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and 'Saskatchewan Railway Company under its Land Subsidy Act, and to whom was such land actually granted or patented ?
18.	What proportion of the land grant, if any, was utilized in aid of construction of the railway ?
19.	Who obtained the portion of the land grant, if any, which was not so utilized in aid of construction ?


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hou. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I find it 'impossible to answer this question, and I would ask the hon. gentleman to let it drop, promising that I will try and get any information that is available.


PORTRAIT OP HIS MAJESTY KING EDWARD.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. HUGHES (Victoria)-by Mr. Ingram -asked :
1.	Is it the intention of the government to have a portrait of His Majesty King Edward painted and placed on the north wall of the House of Commons Chamber opposite that of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria ?
2.	In the preparation of the portrait will the government give consideration to one of Canada's many fine artists, such as Sherwood, Forster, Harris, Grier and Shannon, of London, England. all distinguished Canadians ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. James Sutherland).: The matter is receiving consideration.


COAL MINING ON BANFF RESERVE.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. NORTHRUP-by Mr. Ingram-asked :
1.	Has the government leased any rights of mining coal on the government reserve at Banff to any person or company ?
2.	If so. to whom, and what rights ?
3.	What limit, if any, has the government placed upon the price to be charged for coal so mined ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Lease issued to W. II. Merritt, of Toronto. The lease gives the lessee the right to mine coal upon the land therein described for a period of twenty years, in accordance with the provisions of the regulations of the lease. An annual rental of thirty cents per acre, payable half yearly in advance, and a royalty of ten cents per ton on all coal taken out of the mine. The lease to Merritt is dated 1st July, 1903.
3.	No limit mentioned in lease as to price of coal mined.


COMMON'S RAILWAY SUBSIDIES.
Mr. WILSON asked :: 1.	What amount of bonuses or subsidies have been voted by parliament each year to railways during the years 1900, 1901 and 1902 ?
2.	How much of the said bonuses or subsidies has been paid during the said years, and up to 1st September, 1903 ?


The MINISTER OP FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: Would the hon. gentleman let that stand ? That appears to Tie a repetition of a previous question.


CONTRACTS FOR THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. .GRANT-by Mr. Calvert-asked :
1.	Is it the intention of the government, in building the eastern portions of the proposed Transcontinental Railway, to favour the letting of construction contracts for short sections (say, of fifty miles each), rather than for long stretches ?
2.	Is it the opinion of the government that it would be desirable to avoid the usual subletting that takes place when contracts are let for long stretches of work ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: The question seems, in the present condition of legislation, to be premature.


DREDGING IN THE GRAND RIVER.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LANCASTER-toy Mr. Ingram-asked :
1.	Is the government aware that a dredge is now at work in the Grand river at Dunnville ?
2.	Under what conditions or arrangement is such work being done ?
3.	Has any contract been let, and if so, to whom and at what price, for such dredging ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. James Sutherland)
1.	Yes.
2.	It is removing obstructions to navigation at the mouth of the river.
3.	The work is being done for $12 an hour.

Mr. CLARKE asked :: 1.	Have the transportation commissioners recently appointed by the government held any meetings yet ; and if so, when and where were such meetings held ?
2.	What business has been transacted up to date by the commissioners ?
3.	Do the commissioners propose to take evidence respecting the transportation question ; and will the meetings of the commissioners be open to the public ?
4.	Will citizens who desire to testify before the commissioners be entitled to be heard by the commissioners ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. Janies Sutherland).: The commission has not yet been organized, as the commissioners are waiting for a vote of parlia-


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: ment, and have not yet met. Without being able to state definitely, I am of the opinion that the commissioners will take evidence from all parties from whom they think they can get information, and that the meetings will be open to the public.


MR. BORDEN'S (HALIFAX) RAILWAY POLICY AND PETITIONS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. DAVIS-by Mr. Calvert-asked :
1.	Has the government received any petitions in favour of Mr. Borden's (the leader of the opposition) alternative railway policy ?
2.	If so. how many ?
3.	What parts of the Dominion did they come from ?
4.	How many names were subscribed to each?
The PRIME MINISTER (lit. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: No petitions have been received. [DOT]



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Public buildings, Nova Scotia-Sydney Mines,

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. James Sutherland).: Sydney is the headquarters of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, and is a very important place of 4,000 inhabitants. They have been pressing strongly for further accommodation. The proposed public touilding will toe used for a post office, custom-house and other government purposes. Judging from the cost of buildings elsewhere, I should think the total toost 'would toe between $15,000 and $20,000.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: Has the site been obtained V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No; there has not been any previous vote for tills work.


Robert Laird Borden: The building will be erected by tender and contract, 1 suppose ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: No site has been chosen, no plans prepared, and no estimate made as to the cost, except that It will not exceed $15,000 or $20,000-that is all the information we can get.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We can hardly buy the site, or go to the expense of preparing plans or making estimates until we have a preliminary vote by parliament.


Robert Laird Borden: At any rate, that is all the information that the minister can give ?


Mr. BLAIN.: How will the minister go about the purchase of the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The officials of the department will purchase the site at the lowest possible price. If the price of the site chosen is not deemed satisfactory the property will be expropriated.


Richard Blain: Is there any estimate as to what the site will cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. As in any other case, we obtain the site on the best terms, sometimes we ask the town in which the building is to be erected to contribute to the cost of the site.


Mr. CLARKE.: Does the estimate the minister has given include the site as well as the building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That is, the site and building together will cost, at the outside, $15,000 to $20,000 ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, Sydney Mines is an important and growing place, largely for the reason the minister have given, namely, the development that has taken place through the operations of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company. It seems to me, however, that the better course to pursue in matters of this kind is that which used to be followed some years ago by the department. The minister should give the House the plans of the proposed building and some more accurate estimate of the cost than my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works has been able to give. The House having been in session for so many months, one would think that, this estimate being now brought down, a little more information might accompany it. I do not see, for my part, why the estimate should not have been included in the main estimates, if we are to have no more information than that now given us. I am not objecting to the vote because I know this is an important town and one that, I believe, will largely increase in population. But I do think""it is a little irregular for the minister to come down with practically no information either as to the plans or as to the cost of the building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It has been the custom of the Public Works, or, at least, for many years, to provide for new works in the supplementary estimates of the year. As I said before, I do not see how the department could either procure a site or make plans and estimates until it is authorized by parliament to proceed with the work. I do agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) that there ought to be as definite information as possible as to the cost of any proposed work. Under the advice of the chief architect I think I am safe in stating that the outside cost will be $20,000.
408i
In giving information, the main point to be considered and observed, it seems to me, is that parliament and the country should be advised as to the total expenditure that is to be undertaken. I have found fault in the past with ministers who have failed to give that information, but I think that when it is given the information as to details is not so important.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Cape Breton).: I may be permitted to say, in regard to the procuring of a site, that I have given some little attention to the matter and have made inquiries about it. I have the assurance of the general manager of the Nova Scotia Steel Company-and the rapid growth of the place is largely clue to the enterprise of that company-that a site can be secured for a reasonable amount. I am not authorized to say what figure they will ask, but I feel assured that the department will find the figure very reasonable indeed.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the size of the site V


Alexander Johnston: When discussing the matter with the gentleman I refer to, I spoke of a site about 100 feet square, which I thought would be a fair size. I need not say anything of the necessity for this building, for that is generally recognized. I think the work had better be proceeded with at the earliest possible moment.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Better get the plans first.


Alexander Johnston: Better get the money first.


Richard Blain: The minister tells us that $15,000 or $20,000 will purchase the site and construct the building. Does that estimate include heating and other equipment ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think probably it would.
Halifax quarantine station, Lawlor's Island-improvements, renewals, repairs, &c., $4,500.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the need of this work V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This includes partitions and other changes in the detention building; rebuilding wails of hospital ward, detention building; fitting up two rooms in the hospital; and general repairs. There is due for plumbing, $1,700, which comes out of this vote of $4,500. The money was spent, not for new plumbing, but for overhauling plumbing which was out of repair.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose that work was done by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. That was not fopnd possible. The work was done under the superintendence of Mr. Dodwell, the engineer of the department in Halifax.	.

Halifax-new Public Building, $20,000.


Tlie MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This , is for work now under contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Wliat is tlie total cost of tliis building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total probable cost of this building, exclusive of site, will be $318,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much will the site cost ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The site was purchased some years ago at a cost of, I think, $25,000, if I remember.
The MINISTER OB' PUBLIC WORKS. Twenty-four thousand. I find that the $318.000 is the estimated total cost including the site.


Robert Laird Borden: When is it anticipated that, this building will be finished-/


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The contract calls for its completion on tlie 15th September, 1904. There was some delay, but the chief architect tells me that they are making very good progress now.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not been in Halifax for a good many months, and I do not know from observation what progress they are making. The progress did not seem to be very rapid up to the time I left. I suppose this vote of $20,000 is in addition to a vote already in the estimates ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: How much is the total vote ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: One hundred thousand dollars.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it anticipated that the work will be finished at the time fixed for completion ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect thinks it very doubtful if the work will be finished by the 1st September, 1904, but he thinks it will be finished by the first of the following year.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What departments of the public service will be accommodated by this building ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is nominally a customs house, but the building will also be available for other branches of the public service. No building lias been erected for the general offices of tlie Dominion in Halifax since confederation. The officers of the Dominion have been in the building which was erected before the union, and various buildings have been rented from time to time for the accommodation of the public service, but no general public building has been erected since confederation. This is intended to meet the Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
difficulty and to obviate the necessity of renting buildings for the different offices. Though it is called the customs house, it will also provide accommodation for other officers of the public service.


Robert Laird Borden: How many stories will the new building be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Four stories above the basement.


Robert Laird Borden: Will there be an elevator ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, two elevators.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose no arrangement has been made as to which of the officers now in the other building will be removed to the new building. Of course, the customs house officers will go. The post office, I suppose, will be continued in the present building ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: As the post office is very much cramped now, the intention is that it shall have the main floor of the present building, which is at present divided between the post office and the customs house, the customs being entirely transferred to the new building, and probably the Marine and Fisheries Department also. Except as to the customs no definite policy has been determined upon, although I think it will be found convenient to also transfer the Marine and Fisheries Department to the other building. The idea is to afford the customs house sufficient accommodation in the -new building, to give the space made by the removal of the customs house from the old building to the post office, and then to distribute the rest of the space amongst the other officers. A portion of the present post office might be assigned to the savings bank, which is now in a private building, and that will give the bank a front upon Hollis street, which is in the centre of the business district of the city. Subject to that qualification that we hope to give the post office the space which was formerly divided between the post office and the customs houSe.


Robert Laird Borden: If I remember rightly on an upper floor of the present building there is a collection of some objects of interest in connection with the province of Nova Scotia. It is at present in a very inaccessible place.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The museum has been removed. While it occupied the Dominion building it was always a question whether it belonged to the province or the Dominion. The province owned the museum, but it claimed that it had the right to a place for it in the building. For a long time the museum occupied a place in this building, but the local government procured accommodataion for it in the old Burn-s building opposite,

the museum has been transferred to that building, and I believe that under the care of Mr. Piers it is now in very good condition. X do not know what the space thus vacated in the old building is applied to at present, but while in that building the museum was inaccessible and unsatisfactory in all respects.
Halifax immigration building - additional story over the one story portion, &c., $11,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is that for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The improvements to this building are being made at the request of the immigration branch of the Interior Department. An additional story is being put on the one story part of the building. It has been represented that they had not sufficient accommodation for immigration work and on account of these representations the improvements are being made.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the additional accommodation required for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: More accommodation is required for immigrants. This is partly a one-story and partly a two-story building, and we are putting a second story on the part which is now one story.


Robert Laird Borden: I think I saw in one of the newspapers that some examination had been made of this building, and that it had been reported unsuitable. Is not that the case ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It lacks sufficient accommodation.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it because the examination which has been made of the building by some official or officials that this additional vote is being asked ? I do not know anything about it, except that I saw it referred to in the public press.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC . WORKS.: In regard to buildings of this description which are under the control of other departments, we go very much on the representations of the officials in particular charge of the work. No information is given to the chief architect or to the deputy minister to show that the building is not in good condition, and suitable for the accommodation of this branch of the service, but the trouble is that it is too small. Since this matter has been considered, we have had further representations made to the department that even with this proposed improvement there will not be sufficient accommodation. But, as far as I know, the accommodation they have is very good.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This application was made by the Department of the Interior on behalf of the immigration branch, during the present session of the House, and it has recently appeared that
these representations are confirmed and that more accommodation is needed.


Robert Laird Borden: By whom was this examination made ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I think it was by some medical gentleman connected with one or other of the provinces. I forget whether it was by an official of our own government or not. At all events it was stated in the public press that there was a need of greater accommodation, and when I noticed it I was glad to know that the Department of the Interior had already asked for this accommodation, and that the hon. Minister of Public Works was about to provide for it.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the additional story be constructed by tender and contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, I may say that. We are to expend $11,000, and it is quite a sufficient work to have detailed plans drawn and the work let by tender.


Robert Laird Borden: Is $11,000 expected to be sufficient to complete the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect informs me that it is sufficient according to the plan.
Digby public buildings-improvements, $1,800.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This provides for a clock in the tower, and some improvements in the public buildings.
Antigonish-new fittings for post office, $1,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for general improvements. Some of the floors are in bad condition and the letterboxes are very old. This is to provide new floors, screens for the public lobbies, two hundred new letter-boxes, and general repairs to the building.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What kind of letter-boxes?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They will be the ordinary brass letter-boxes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I have noticed different kinds of letter-boxes, some very much more convenient for the use of the public than othf rs. I have seen some in the Northwest which are a great improvement on any that I have seen down here. The letterbox which I think should be put in is one to which the owner can have access at any time without having to go to the wicket to inquire.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We are putting in the improved kind.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Who supplies the boxes ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Rubenstein & Co., of Montreal, make the most of the boxes for the department.

Sydney-addition to public building (revote, $5,000), $10,000.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide an addition to the present building 40 feet by 30 feet, with two stories, attic and basement. It is represented to be necessary on account of the growth of the place. The postal revenue is between $17,000 and $18,000 and the customs revenue about $150,000, and the money orders issued amount to nearly $200,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is this to be the entire cost of the addition ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, the total cost is estimated by the chief architect at $15,000.


Robert Laird Borden: How is the work to be done-by tender and contract ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
North Sydney public building, $1,100.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for general improvements. Some of the brick walls are out of condition, iron columns have to be taken out and some doors changed, modern letter-boxes are to be placed in the building, and other repairs are to be made.
Charlottetown armoury-additional accommodation for orderly rooms, &c., $2,550.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This has been expended by the department in accordance with a request from the Department of Militia.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: Are all mililia expenditures by the Department of Public Works made on the requisition of the Militia Department ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: I think all of them. I do not know of any exception.


Mr. HACKETT.: Is this work going on at present ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, it was undertaken some time ago, and is practically completed.


Edward Hackett: This work was very much required, and I must compliment the department on having it done.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is the work done by contract ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: No, it is done under the superintendence of the militia officer in Charlottelown.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Who did the work ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: I have the details of the cost of the work, but not the names of the different parties who did it. I would be pleased to have a Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
memorandum made giving the information the hon. gentleman asks for. I imagine that it was so general that the militia officers did the overseeing themselves.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That is a new role for militia officers.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am not sure that it is not a good plan, as they have an interest in seeing that the work is well done.
Charlottetown Dominion building-improvements, additions, &c. (revote, $8,000), $12,000.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the construction of an annex in the rear of the Charlottetown Dominion building, also for alterations, repairs and renewals. The estimated cost is $12,350.
Mi'. LEFURGEY. Is this annex something new put in the estimates this year ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: No, there was a vote taken for this some time ago.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: Has this annex been proceeded with yet ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: No ; the plans were prepared and tenders
advertised for, and the contract was let a short time ago.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: To whom was the contract let, and at what figure ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: The tenders were received only a few days ago and the information is now in my notes. The deputy does not remember the name but I will bring it this afternoon.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the lowest tender been accepted ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The lowest tender was accepted.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: What is this annex to be used for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Generally in connection with the post office.


Robert Laird Borden: It seems to me that this is a large amount for an annex to the post office in Charlottetown.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: I had myself the pleasure of being in Charlottetown a year or two ago and complaint was then made of the lack of accommodation in the post office. I am told that the improvement is very urgently required. I think almost all of the officers connected with the department are in the one building. It contains the post office, savings bank, customs and inland revenue offices, weights and measures office and the marine office. I think this addition is being made principally <>n the strong recommendation of the postmaster there, Mr. Brecken, an old friend of ours who used to be in this House. He

lias written to me several times in connection with this matter since I have been in office.
Mr. CLAItKE. Will this vote cover the amount of the tender ?
The	MINISTER	OE	PUBLIC	WORKS.
The amount we are now asking will cover it. There is a re vote of $8,BOO and a new vote of $4,000.
Mr.	CLARKE.	Will	this complete the
annex ?
The	MINISTER	OF	PUBLIC	WORKS.
It will complete the work.
Public buildings, New Brunswick-Oampbell-ton public building, $5,000.
The	MINISTER	OF	PUBLIC	WORKS.
An application was pressed on the department for a public building at Campbellton, New Brunswick. I looked into the matter personally and found that it was quite a growing and thriving place. The postal revenue has increased until last year it was nearly 84.000 and the customs duty nearly $7,000. It is a seaport town and the business has very largely increased :	I
thought I was warranted in asking parl'a-ment to authorize me to construct a public building there.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will the'total cod be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Between $20,000 and $25,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will be the price of the site V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot give the price of the site as it has not yet been purchased.


Samuel Hughes: What is the population of Campbellton ?


Mr. HENDERSON.: About 7,000.


Samuel Hughes: I am sure it is not 7,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say I have not the population here.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have the plans for the building been prepared V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: General plans have been prepared.


Edward Frederick Clarke: General plans for this building, and these plans show that the building will cost $20,000 or $25,000 but the site has not yet been looked up.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It has not yet been purchased. I may say that if parliament authorized me to undertake any public building and I found th.it the price asked for a site was not reasonable I would not go on with the work. 1 think that parliament has a right to expect to acquire a site at a reasonable price. Such as other people would have to pay. We all
know that when the government undertake a work people seem to think they can get an exorbitant price for their property. 1 have several times taken the position that if I could not acquire a site at a reasonable price I would not go on with a work and have found it to work satisfactorily.


Mr. EMMERSON.: Campbellton is a terminal point on the Intercolonial, a very large seaport town with large shipping interests, with large lumbering operations, and it is also the centre for a large section of New Brunswick and for a section of Quebec. A portion of Bonaventure is tributary to Campbellton and its business centres in that town. It is a very enterprising town ; there are large milling establishments and it is deserving of recognition in this way if any town in the Dominion of Canada is deserving.
Moncton public building-improvements, $1,200.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for general improvements to this building. I find the postal revenue is something like $16,000, and the customs revenue between $38,000 and $40,000. This is for small improvements at Moncton.


Robert Laird Borden: Will this be put under contract and tender or will it be done by the department '!


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think this can hardly be done by tender.


Robert Laird Borden: The preceding item will I suppose be by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, certainly.
Newcastle public building-improvements, $800.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide for 272 lock-boxes which will cost a couple of hundred dollars and some other improvements which will aggregate about $800.
Tracadie Lazaretto-improvements, ae., $1,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is asked to make provision for a small steam disinfector. We had application from there for a number of other improvements but we thought they might stand in the meantime.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister know anything about the condition of the Lazaretto and how many persons are afflicted with leprosy. Are they increasing or decreasing ? This Larazetto has been in operation for a long time and it is nearly time that the disease was cleaned out of that locality.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS, 'file lion, gentleman might renew his question when the estimates of the hon. Minister of Agriculture are under discussion.


Robert Laird Borden: Has the govern-men any information as to whether th;s disease is increasing or decreasing in Canada ? Statements are made from time to time in the public press as to its increase and it would be desirable for us to know whether there is any official information which can be communicated to the House with regard to it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: As I said before it. will perhaps be better to ask this question when the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture are under Consideration.
provide a new building. Since then we have been informed by the Militia Department, which has requested this expenditure, that there is a building there which can be utilized, with some alterations and repairs. So, this estimate of $5,000 is proposed, which, it is expected, will cover the expenditure for the present year. The total cost is estimated at $11,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the work be done by contract ?


The MINISTER OE PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Mr. TURGEON.: I may state in answer to the inquiry that leprosy has been decreasing for some years in that locality. Sometimes when the doctors grow jubilant in the belief that no more cases will be found, a case may arise in a family which has been free frem it for a generation. The children escape the disease, but their children become its victims. Still the number is decreasing. When this Lazaretto was transferred to the control of the Dominion government there were about twenty-three or twenty-f ur cases, but now the number arising in the locality is fourteen or fifteen. The number has been added to by the importation of three or four cases from British Columbia and Manitoba, and I believe that one of these died last year.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How many are there altogether ?


Onésiphore Turgeon: I do not know the exact number, but I believe it is about 19 or 20, of whom 14 or 15 are from the locality. I believe that the Department of Agriculture has all that information.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of what nationality are the people who were brought from British Columbia ?


Onésiphore Turgeon: Swedes or Norwegians, I believe.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No Chinese among them ?


Onésiphore Turgeon: No. I believe that the Dominion government refused to accept the Chinese for this Tracadie hospital.


Samuel Hughes: It would be advisable that the Department of Agriculture should be ready, when its estimates are before the House, to explain how the lepers were transported across the continent and tvliat means were taken to disinfect the cars in which they were carried.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The disease is not contagious.


Samuel Hughes: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Emmerson) is mistaken.
Woodstock-armoury and gun shed, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Originally it was proposed to ask for $11,000. But at that time it was intended to Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What would have been the cost of the site and new building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About ipzo.000. That was the original estimate.
St. John Immigrant building, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide additional accommodation in the St. John immigration building. The estimates as originally prepnred to meet the requirements of the immigration department provided for a two-story addition to the present building, to cost $6,500; furniture, $1,500 ; superintendence and incidentals, $2,000; making a total of $10,000. But, this estimate was made before the fire took place in the freight shed of St. John, burning part of this building. This will make necessary a new arrangement, but it is estimated that the sum of $10,000 will still cover the cost. I understand that a joint arrangement is made between the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Interior Department for an extension.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That will probably be a further supplementary estimate.


Robert Laird Borden: No, I understand that this is to cover the cost of repairing the damage done by the fire, as well as the improvements ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All the expenditure by the Public Works Department will be covered by the amount I have stated.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the work be done by tender and contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, our work will be let by contract. There may be some small repairs outside of the contract, but this contract will cover the main part of the work.


Samuel Hughes: Permit me to draw attention to a point which was under discussion a little while ago-the public building in Campbellton. Now, Campbell-ton is a nice little village. The hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson), as I understand it, stated that the population was 7,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I said 7,000.


Samuel Hughes: The whole population of Restigouche county is about 10,000 and Campbellton is between 800 and 1,000.
New Brunswick-Woodstock public building -improvement, $3,900.
The MLmoTGR OP PUBLIC WORKS. This is to provide for new letter-boxes and to make some repairs to the building.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is tbis the drill shed again ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, this has nothing to do with the drill shed. We have a public building in Woodstock. About $2,000 had to be spent in repairs, including the building of a retaining wall.
Mr. BORDEN fHalifax). Has the work been done by contract or by day labour ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There will be a contract for the boxes, which will be the principal amount. The work already done was done by day labour.
Fredericton military buildings-officers' stables (revote, $1,500), $2,400.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to build a stable in place of one that was demolished as useless. This is under contract now. The revote of $1,500 was not paid out at the end of the year. It is let by contract to C. J. B. Simmons.
Fredericton military buildings-Sergeant-major's quarters, $2,300.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a revote of $1,000 and $1,300 additional, and is to make provision for the sergeant-major.


Samuel Hughes: How many sergeant-majors are there ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I suppose there is only one, but he may have a large family. I think it includes sergeants as well as the sergeant-major.
St. John quarantine station-water service, &c., $7,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total cost is estimated at $24,000. We had a long discussion on this quarantine station when the main item was up. This is simply a revote of an amount which was not spent at the end of June last. The station is on Partridge - island. The water supply comes from the city.


Robert Laird Borden: Can you not get an adequate water supply on the island ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am told by the deputy minister that they have expended a lot of money in sinking
artesian wells, and they cannot get any fresh water.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has that quarantine station been used at all ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot give the details I would like to. This expenditure is made by the Department of Public Works at the request of the Department of Agriculture. I have no doubt that in the winter time -this is much used.


Samuel Hughes: I presume the minister has taken precautions that the pipe should not form an obstruction to vessels when the tide is low. There was some difficulty in Toronto on that account.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work is Ibeing done under the supervision of the engineer for the province of New Brunswick, and I presume he will look after that.
St. John drill hall, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is put in at the request of the Department of -Militia and Defence. Judging from my experience of such buildings in other places, I would not take the responsibility of saying -that this building, when completed, will cost less than $100,000. The drill hall in Windsor cost $75,000 and that in London considerably more. I do not believe a suitable drill hall in the city of St. John could be erected for less than $100,000 in round figures.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I wish to make a correction of a statement I made with respect to the population of the town of Campbellton, which I gave from the impression I obtained from visiting it and seeing that it was an important place. I find that Campbellton has a population of about 3,000. It is an incorporated town, and comprises almost the whole of the parish of Addington, in the county of Restigouche. It has been incorporated for a number of years, and has a mayor and council and a water system.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is an ocean port, is it not V


Henry Robert Emmerson: Yes.


Samuel Hughes: When the hon. gentleman makes a statement in the House that the town has a population of 7,000 inhabitants, when at -the outside it has not more than 1,200, naturally I feel a little delicate in pointing out that the hon. gentleman is in the wrong. He says that it is incorporated. It is not incorporated ; if it was, it would be put down in the census as incorporated.


Henry Robert Emmerson: It is incorporated by special Act of the legislature of New Brunswick, and has been for a number of years.


Samuel Hughes: If it was incorporated as an ordinary town, it would be put down in the census as a separate municipality, whereas it is not mentioned in the census as a separate municipality.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: We have passed the item for Campbelltou, and the hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Em-inerson) having made his explanation, we cannot say any more on this item.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would like to get some more information about this St. John drill hall. The Minister of Public Works has told us, with his psual candour and lucidity, that it is likely to cost $100,000. Have we got a site purchased yet ? Have we any engineer's estimate ? Do we know where we are at ? He is asking us for $10,000, not knowing what the ultimate expenditure will be.	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I was about to explain to the committee that a site had not yet been purchased. Some of the officers in St. John think that a new site should be purchased and that the government land should not be used. Others of the officers are of the opinion that a site located upon the land at present owned by the government is satisfactory. I have not had an opportunity yet, personally, to look into the question, but I intend to do so at an early date. I am not able to offer an opinion, but we have a good deal of land which was formerly occupied by the British government for military purposes and handed over to the Dominion at the time of confederation, and I had hoped that it might be possible to find a suitable site on that land. The cost of a suitable drill hall for a city like St. John cannot be less than somewhere about $100,000. That would be the figure I would name. Cities of similar population, such as the city of Halifax and other cities, have had drill halls erected at somewhere near that amount. The Halifax drill hall cost a good deal more-probably more than it ought to have cost. I will put the cost somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000, not to exceed $100,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have there been any plans prepared yet ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We have had general plans for such a building, but the particular plans that would! be used in the city of St. John have not yet been completed.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It would cost from $50,000 to $100,000 ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Hon. Mr. TISDALE.: How many regiments have their headquarters at St. John?


Henry Robert Emmerson: 


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is the 62nd, a large infantry regiment, and there is a large garrison artillery regiment. I am not sure that there is any other regiment at present at that place, but in addition to that there are the field hospital and the bearer company.


Mr. COCHRANE.: In connection with these estimates, if the bon. Minister of Public Works would take a suggestion from me, he would come down and tell us the amount that it will take to complete the building. I have in my mind cases in which some innocent looking estimates have come down for a few thousand dollars, and the expenditure terminated in about ten times as much as it wTas expected the building was going to cost. I think the question of the cost of a public work should be settled by the department before the hon. Minister of Public Works comes down and asks for any money at all. I do not think it is necessary to take the whole amount at first, but it appears to me that it would be more satisfactory to the committee to first determine the cost and then to carry out the plan as originally intended. In this case, they tell us that the building may cost $100,000, and they are only asking for $10,000 to commence with. The hon. Minister of Public Works will remember some similar cases in which small amounts were first asked, but in which the buildings cost a great deal more than the committee anticipated before they were completed.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I had thought that I should rather have received a compliment from the hon. member from Nortnumberland (Mr. Cochrane) than criticism. He and I are agreed that such a full statement should be given of a work that is intended to be undertaken that parliament cannot be deceived, and I think in this case that I have only been carrying out my promise to the House in that regal'd. These works are undertaken on the representations of the Department of Militia and Defence, and they have estimated that the cost of this building will run between $50,000 and $100,000.


Mr. BELL.: The hon. Minister of Public Works states that this building is now estimated to cost between $50,000 and $100,000. Has there been any estimate made?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The department in preparing the plans has the experience of the cost of buildings similar to the one which it is now proposing to erect. The department, having stated that the cost of the building will not exceed $100,000, if the plans are not in accordance with that estimate, it has no right to go on with the work'.


John William Bell: What did the Halifax drill hall cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Speaking from memory, it cost betweeu $250,000 and $300,000.


John William Bell: Why is it estimated that you are going to provide St. John with a drill hall with an expenditure of from $50,000 to $100,000?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think they have other accommodation in St. John. Our effort, which is seconded by the Department of Militia and Defence, is to try and keep down these large expenditures as much as possible and to spread the expenditure more wisely over the country. If we can get sufficient accommodation for a reasonable expenditure, I do not see why we should go to any more expense than is really necessary.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Would it not be a better business proposition for the Department of Militia and Defence, if they want a drill hall at St. John, to ascertain what the strength of the force that will require accommodation is likely to be, and then prepare plans and give the committee the actual information as to what the cost will be ? In four or five cases this morning votes of $5,000 or $10,000 have been asked for public buildings, and when we have asked if a site had been procured or if plans had been prepared, we have been answered in the negative. The department are in blissful ignorance as to what the cost will be, and we have to go it blind. Of course, we can assume no responsibility for such a lavish and reckless expenditure as this.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I hope my hon. friend will not object to this vote. It is not a large vote. It is true that all the data may not be forthcoming that ought to be available, but I think the committee can trust the minister and the government not to proceed with any expenditure until all the information has been obtained that is necessary, and until proper plans have been made. I am satisfied that additional accommodation is necessary at St. John. Recently the district. officer commanding that district has been moved from Fredericton to St. John. Therefore, it has become a more important military centre. I am satisfied that if proper accommodation is provided the active militia at St. John will be increased, and I think it is desirable that at a point like St. John, which is a point of strategical importance, the strength of the militia should be increased. It will not be increased until sufficient accommodation is forthcoming. I will hope that as an earnest of what is intended my hon. friend will not object to the vote of $10,000. My hon. friend will find in the estimates later on an item which he will approve of, an item for the extension of the drill hall at Toronto. The necessary plans for the expenditure of that vote have not yet been matured. It is in very much
the same position as the vote for St. John.
I hope, therefore, that my hon. friend will not object to this.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am' sure the Minister of Militia does not want to misrepresent my course in this matter. We do not object to constructing drill sheds at these different strategic points, but we think it is very bad strategy and very bad business for the government to come to parliament and ask for a vote of $10,000 for a building which *every one knows will cost perhaps ten times more, and at the same time, give us no information whatever about the matter. We want to know what kind of a building it will be ; what it will cost; whether a site has been purchased and what is its cost, and whether the municipal authorities of St. John have been approached with the view that they might donate a site. All this information should be given by the government.


Hon. Mr. IIAGGART.: They do not know even where the building is to be situated.


Edward Frederick Clarke: As a matter of fact the government give us no information whatever, although they are pledging parliament to what may ultimately be a very large expenditure. I might be called to order were I to discuss the item further on in the estimates for the extension of the Toronto drill hall, but I may say here that the militia force of the city of Toronto will appreciate the action of the minister in asking an appropriation of $20,000 for that purpose. Whether the vote is sufficient or not, I cannot say at the present moment, but if the department has not had proper plans prepared for the extension of the Toronto drill hall they are open to just the same criticism as in the case of the St. John drill shed. What we object to is that -we are voting this money practically in the dark.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I must take exception to that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: To this method of doing business ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. It is impossible for us to do what the hon. member (Mr. Clarke) suggests. We cannot purchase a site until wre are authorized by parliament to go on with the work, and purchase that site. Then, as to the character of the building, a good deal would depend on what site is selected. It is impossible to ask the chief architect to draw a plan, except in a general way for a public building, until he knows on what kind of ground it will be erected. We are asking here for authority to undertake a certain work, and we state what that work is estimated to cost, and there can be no deception in the matter whatever. I agree that if we ask for a further vote, after the original vote is taken, we should be able to give details.


Samuel Hughes: Are we to understand that this money is to purchase a site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It can he used for that.
Mr.	HUGHES	(Victoria).	I	think	theminister will find that the present military property owned by the government at St. John	it not well	situated for a	drill shed.Mr.	CLARICE.	Why ?	-Mr.	HUGHES	(Victoria).	Because	the
land owned by the government is situated on the sea coast, and also because it is too far removed from the centre of the town.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is what some of the military gentlemen in St John say.


Samuel Hughes: If the government property were selected, the men would have to walk from a mile to three-quarters of a mile from the centre of the town. I think the minister will find that it is advisable to build the drill shed in a more central location.


John William Bell: 
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not in the case spoken of to-day.


John William Bell: The only case cited to-day was the case of Halifax. Halifax is a city of not much more, importance than St. John-perhaps the hon. gentleman from St. John will not admit that it is of any more importance. A small sum was originally voted for the drill shed at Halifax, and year after year other votes have been taken, until the amount has reached nearly $300,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There has been a change of government since then.


John William Bell: And I presume there will be another change of government before this building at St. John is finished, which might be a reasonable guarantee that the cost will be cut down. I have no doubt that the great cost of the drill shed at Halifax


Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.: is to a certain extent attributable to the change of government, while another change may work reform in the opposite direction. What we are objecting to is the principle on which this is done. The government ought to be able to inform parliament as to the site which will be chosen, and then if there is an architect of experience in the service of the department, he should be able to estimate within $10,000 or $15,000 the cost of the building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is exactly what we have done in this case. As minister, I should feel that if it were found that the expenditure would be considerably in excess of the amount which I stated to parliament, I would not go on with the work until parliament had sanctioned that change. I have always contended that it is wrong to do anything else, and I expect to have the support of my hon. friend (Mr. Bell) now. I have stated to the House about what the cost will be, but it is impossible to bring down a detailed plan until the site has been purchased.


John William Bell: I do not think, that the criticism of the minister on my course is justified. What I maintain is, that we should not be drawn into large expenditures by these small degrees. No business man or no business corporation would embark in an enterprise, under such circumstances as confront parliament in this case. The government do not know the cost, and actually, they do not know where they are going to erect the building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But we are not doing that.


John William Bell: We have been told here today that this building will cost from $50,000 to $100,000. That is an enormously wide margin ; it is in fact no estimate at all. The Minister of Public Works would not transact his own business in that way. The procedure in this case is utterly unbusinesslike.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think so. If you are putting up an addition to a factory and you know the maximum amount it will cost, then any business man would be safe in proceeding with the purchase of the site, and the details could be figured out afterwards.


John William Bell: Would a business man be satisfied that an estimate which varied from $50,000 to $100,000 ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I quite agree that it would not be right to take a vote for $10,000, and after the statement is made that the work would only cost $10,000, then proceed to spend $100,000. But in this case, we have given the maximum cost as nearly as possible.


John William Bell: Then I suppose we must accept the statement of the minister ; that

so far as lie is concerned, and if he remains in office, he pledges the government to the staiement that this expenditure will not exceed $100,000; of which we are now asked to vote the first instalment of $10,-
000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Having made the statement to the House that the estimated cost will not exceed a certain amount ; then, if when the plans are made out it is found that the building would largely exceed that amount, I would not feel justified in going on with it until I asked the sanction of parliament to the change. That is the position I take.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the $100,000 include the cost of the site ? The liou. member for Victoria (Mr. Hughes) points out, that because of strategic reasons, the government land is not suitable on which to erect this building ; and also because the men would have to walk a mile, or three-quarters of a mile, from the centre of the town to the drill shed, if it were erected on the property owned by the government. In view of this, another site may have to be purchased, and I would ask if the $100,000 estimate includes the cost of that site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: One of the reasons why we have not decided as to the site, is that objection is taken to the land owned at present by the government as not being suitable. Perhaps the Minister of Militia might dispose of the government land if another site is purchased.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, I do not think so.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: As the Militia Department has not come to a decision, of course, I cannot speak as to that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We are fortunate in having both the Minister of Militia and the Minister of Public Works in the chamber at the present time, and I would ask, is it not a fact that the city of St. John offered a site some time ago, for the purpose of erecting a drill hall thereon ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is not a fact. There has been correspondence between the department aud the militia officers in St. John, and the department pointed out, that if it is not in the public interest to construct a building* on our own laud, then the municipality ought to provide a site. I regret to say that I have not discovered from the correspondence between the city authorities and the government, that there was any desire on their part to purchase a site and hand it over. A site has been selected by them which they would like ; it is not a very expensive site, but up to the present there is no agreement between the department and the
civic authorities as to who should pay for it.


David Tisdale: We do not object to having proper drill halls erected for the accommodation of our militia in the different centres of the country, but we do object to proceeding with such works without the government giving adequate information to parliament. We have in this case, a vote for $10,000. It goes to the public that this is all that will be voted for that purpose, and the electors never dream that in the end the cost may be perhaps $150,000. The Minister of Militia ought to be able to lay before the House all particulars with regard to this drill shed. This is a very loose way of undertaking a work of this kind. I am quite prepared to justify any reasonable expenditure for the accommodation of our militia force, but I cannot approve of the government proceeding in this way. The minister knows very well, that if we pass this vote now, there will be no hope of getting a site from the municipal authorities of St. John. If the government brings down a matured scheme there will be no difficulty in getting a vote passed through this House. We are not objecting to the expenditure of $10,000, or $100,000, but we do object that the country should be committed to a large expenditure without being placed in possession of the details.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I do not think it is desirable that we should threaten the city of St. John, that they will not get a drill hall, or a vote for one, until they agree to give us a site. If that is a good policy, then we have the cards in our own hands, and we can say : Unless you give us a site we will build on our own property. I can tell my hon. friend that I have satisfied myself that the present accommodation in the city of St. John is inadequate, and the military authorities have informed me of that fact. I have further satisfied myself, that a suitable drill hall can be erected for $100,000. We have general plans, which can be adapted to the city of St. John when the site is secured. It would seem to me that the information which has been given with regard to this vote, is far more ample than has been usually given with regard to similar votes. The criticism made by my hon. friend from Pic-tou (Mr. Bell) has no doubt a good deal of force ; but if he will go back during the whole time since confederation, he can apply that criticism to almost every public work that has ever been proposed in this House. I admit with him that it is a question for consideration ; but if we are to reform our course, I suggest that we put it off until next session, and allow this item to go through.


John William Bell: I think I suggested that the argument I used was one which had been used not only by this, but by previous oppositions. I think I was laying down a sound

basis as to the mode in which these moneys should be voted, and I am glad to have the assurance of the hon. Minister of Public Works that he feels seriously disposed to look on the statement he makes in the House as made on his responsibility as a minister. I suppose we may consider that a limit has been fixed to this expenditure by one who is authoritative.
1 shall be able to tell. There is correspondence, and a site has been selected, which is approved of by the city and by some of the military men there. X think one of the military officers secured an option upon it in his own name. The government is in no way bound by that however. I presume that the price is named, bxit I do not remember it at this moment.


Samuel Hughes: My own idea is that when a particular item is brought before the House, it should be explained at the time; but with regard to the purchase of a site for a public building, I think the proper plan is to be ready to close the purchase as soon as the land is selected, which could not be done if the minister had to wait till he could come to the House for a vote. With regard to a new drill shed for the city of St. John, I have no doubt that if the members from that city were here, they would admit the necessity of a new drill shed being erected in a suitable place in the centre of the populous part of the city. At present it is off at one side, and it is not convenient of access.


Sir.   CLARICE@: Is there a drill shed in existence in St. John now ?


The MINISTER OP .MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is it practicable to use the site on which the present drill shed stands ?


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Possibly it may be, although I think the department would first have to consider the question whether it might not be advantageous to dispose of that building and realize upon it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is the present drill hall up in the city cr down near the water front V


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is not in the centre of the city.


Richard Blain: There seems to have been some correspondence with respect to the site. Perhaps the government could tell us what amount of money this site will cost.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is mo correspondence in the Public Works Department except what we have had with the Militia Department.


Richard Blain: The Minister of Militia said that there had been some correspondence between his department and the municipal authorities, and that the site had partly been selected. If that site or ..some other like it is to be purchased, what amount of money will be required for it ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am not able to give my hon. friend a figure; but I will make a note of it, and when my own estimates come up Mr. BELL.


Richard Blain: Did the municipal authorities refuse to purchase the site, and do they expect the government to purchase it ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think they do.


Richard Blain: If that be correct, then I suppose some portion of the $10,000 now asked for will go towards the purchase of the site V


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Not necessarily As I have already explained, the government own land there. I do not care to give an opinion with reference to it, but a very prominent officer in the city of St. John has assured me that the land owned by the government is perfectly suitable for a drill hall, and I propose to investigate that question carefully by sending down an officer from the headquarters staff before I advise the Minister of Public Works to purchase a new site.
air. EMMERSON. Before this item is passed, I would crave the indulgence of the committee to make on explanation, although it is not in order. I want to be correct in all my statements in this House; and if I find that I have made an incorrect statement under misapprehension, I want to be the first to correct it. I made the statement that the town of Campbellton was incorporated, anu that the number of its inhabitants was about 3,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 4,000.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My last statement was that it was about 3,000. My hon. friend from North Victoria (Mr. Hughes) questioned my statement that the town was incorporated, and said that it was not. I have in my hand the statutes of the province of New Brunswick, by which I find that the town of Campbellton was incorporated in the 51st year of the reign of Victoria-that was in 1888-aud it has continued to be an incorporated town down to the present moment. It has grown largely in population during that time. I believe it has grown very materially since the last census.


Samuel Hughes: Might I ask why Campbellton does not appear in the census as an incorporated place ?


Henry Robert Emmerson: If you refer to Westmoreland-


Peter Macdonald: Order. I do not think I can allow this to go any further.

I have allowed the hon. gentleman to make his explanation that Campbelltou is an incorporated town, and the discussion must end there.


Sir.   CLARICE@: I submit, with the greatest possible deference and respect, that the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes) was asking a very pertinent question. He has the official census, and he points out


Peter Macdonald: We cannot go Into the question of the correctness of the census at this moment.


Samuel Hughes: I have made all the statement I want.
Levis-public building, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a supplementary vote in addition to what has been taken in the main estimates.


Samuel Hughes: Is that a new building or an old building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A new building.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is its total cost to be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have forgotten. I made the statement about a year ago, at the time the first vote was taken. I think it is about $25,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is this building under construction ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No..


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the site been purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We intend to use a site owned by the Crown, under the control of the Railway Department. We have not yet had it transferred.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The work will be done by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Quebec marine and fisheries stores building, $1,200.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This $1,200 is to instal electric light and fixtures in tile public building used by the Marine and Fisheries Department at Quebec.
Quebec Citadel-drill shed for school of gunnery, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to build a school of gunnery at the citadel at Quebec. It is being erected for the Department of Militia and Defence. It is most important that this should be provided for the next fiscal year, as new guns have been ordered, and accommodation should be provided for that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will this cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If the item is allowed to stand I shall bring down that information this afternoon.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it a permanent school ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand that this building is required on account of the new guns.
Item allowed to stand.
Quebec military buildings-main store building at Dominion arsenal, $11,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in connection with the Dominion arsenal. It is really a stores building for extra stores there, required on account of the increase of the work.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is this to give additional accommodation for the storage of military supplies ? I would like to ask the minister in this connection if there are other stores departments where separate supplies of ammunition may be kept ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: My hon. friend will find in the estimates that provision has been made for the construction of a magazine in the city of Toronto, and for a large storehouse and magazine in Winnipeg, and I think for one at London, Ontario.


Samuel Hughes: Early in the session I drew the attention of the minister and of the House to the necessity of having not only stores at various points, but also arsenals, and I pointed to the example set to us by the United States. All their arsenals are inland ; Springfield is in the centre of Massachusetts, and Rock Island is on an island in the Mississippi. Nearly all their private manufacturing arsenals are located remote from the sea-coast in order that in case of necessity they can lie used by the United States government. It would be really advisable that arsenals should not be established even in Toronto because it is on the coast of Lake Ontario. They would be better at inland centres, at Ottawa, or some place remote from the shore..


Edward Cochrane: I would like to ask the Minister of Militia if these premises will be occupied by the troops which the hon. member for North Norfolk is going to send down ?
At one o'clock, committee took recess.
Committee resumed at three o'clock.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am advised that this amount will cover the total cost of the main store building. That is the answer to the question I was asked before recess.


Robert Laird Borden: Some question was asked, just before the committee rose for recess, whether anything similar was being done for general stores elsewhere.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Minister of 'Militia pointed out that in the estimates there are amounts to provide places at Toronto, Winnipeg and some other points.


Robert Laird Borden: What are these general stores ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. Sir Frederick Borden).: This is for the cartridge factory chiefly.


Mr. MORIN.: I was not present when the item for the L6vis public building was under discussion. If the Minister of Pub-lid Works will bear with me, I would like to ask some questions. What is this public building for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: For all the services of the government, particularly post office and customs.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: We voted an amount of $5,000 last April, I think, for a public building in Lgvis.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes ; I explained that this was au additional vote.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: How much will the building cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My recollection is that the estimate was $25,000.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Has the government purchased the ground ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We do not need to purchase it, unless we have to pay the Department of Railways and Canals, in whose name it is now held.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Has the minister received tenders for this building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not yet. I explained that there had been delay in making over the site from one department to the other.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Does the hon. minister know when he will commence construction on the building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry there has been delay, but I think we ought to be able to begin at once.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The Minister of Militia made some statements with regard to buildings in London and Toronto, in which military stores, ammunition and military sup-lilies, are to be stored.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) misunderstood me. In these estimates we are asking, I think for the first time, to make provision for the establishment of stores buildings at different points throughout the Dominion.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the hon. minister give further information on the subject ?


Robert Laird Borden: 


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is provision in these estimates for the construction of a store building at Winnipeg and magazine at Toronto, a magazine at Winnipeg and a magazine at one other point, I think London. There is a general store building, as my hon. friend knows, at Toronto. Perhaps I might explain, with regard to Toronto, that it is quite possible, in fact quite probable, that there will be a new building constructed for the city of Toronto if certain negotiations, which are now pending, come to a successful termination. Therefore, probably, any estimate for the construction of a building will be delayed for a short time.


Edward Frederick Clarke: These magazines will be for arms and ammunition ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: For ammunition.
Quebec Citadel-drill shed for school of gunnery. $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The estimated cost of this building is $30,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the school of gunnery permanently established at Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it a compulsory course ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It will be. We have never had a suitable building for carrying out this sort of instruction, though it has been carried out, of course, to some extent. But now, in connection with the arsenal at Quebec, we are able to carry out the repairs of all the guns used by the artillery throughout the Dominion. If anything goes wrong with a gun we send it there, instead of having to send it back to the old country. We are putting in all the necessary machinery to repair the most delicate guns in use. It is, therefore, convenient to have a school of gunnery at that point. The very fact of carrying on this work of repair enables the teachers to illustrate and explain the different parts of the gun. We are having this building constructed, which will cost $30,000, to enable this to be done efficiently.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, I understand this does not include instruction in musketry, but does it include light field guns as well as heavy guns ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Guns known as guns of position -the 7'5 and a larger class of guns.


Robert Laird Borden: Would this include the guns used by -field batteries ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, field guns or heavy artillery.

1305a


Robert Laird Borden: Including such arms as gatling guns ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Well, no ; that would hardly be included. Although it might be. This building would be sufficient to do that ; but I think that what is particularly had in view is training with reference to the different parts making up the field guns and larger pieces, and the use of such artillery.


John Graham Haggart: Are you getting the new class of guns that have been adopted in the British army-the latest ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Of rifle ? Yes ; we have ordered half a dozen of these guns, and we expect them here very shortly.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What are they for ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We are ordering them for the purpose of comparing them with our own rifle which is being constructed by the Ross Company.


John Graham Haggart: I mean heavy guns -artillery. Thene is a mew guui lately adopted by the British army, and I think we ought to have the same.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: A fifteen-pounder ? Of course, we have no official information that the War Office have decided on any particular gun, although I have seen the statement in the newspapers which the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Haggart) refers to. We have ordered, subject, of course, to the decision of the War Office. I understand that the one likely to be adopted was the 18-5 pounder.


John Graham Haggart: Have any of the new rifles being manufactured in Quebec been finished yet ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No.	'


John Graham Haggart: When does the hon. minister expect them to ibe delivered ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: They should be delivered at the rate of 1,000 a mouth. I am told that before the end of the year they will be delivered.


Robert Laird Borden: Can that rifle use the same ammunition as the British arm ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes

303.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose the difference between the Ross rifle and the British arm is not very great ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is very trifling indeed. The Ross rifle is what is known as a straight-409
pull rifle; the other pulls back with a twist.


Robert Laird Borden: Are any of the parts interchangeable in the two rifles ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Not as between the Lee-En-field and the Ross, but the Ross rifle is being manufactured so that all the parts are interchangeable. I mean to say tha*, taking a dozen rifles and separating the parts, you can make a new lot of rifles with the interchangeable parts. They are not made for an individual rifle but for any rifle.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How do they compare
as to cost ?	*


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We think the Ross rifle is the
better of the two, I think it is quite as good. Tlie contract laid on the Table of the House shows that the cost of the Ross rifle is $25.
I had a communication the other day from the War Office offering a new rifle, and 1 And that if the expense of inspection, freight, &c., were added, it just about comes up to the cost of the Ross rifle, possibly a little less.
M. BORDEN (Halifax). Does this company supply the rifles to people generally or only to the government of Canada ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: They are not under restriction not to furnish it to any one else, but I think that our requirements will probably test their capacity to the full extent. They have agreed to supply us 1,000 rifles a month.


Robert Laird Borden: In England, is the production of the rifles supplied for the British army restricted to that purpose alone, or can it be sold to others ?
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND
DEFENCE. It can be sold. Most of the rifles used in the English army are made by the trade, as it is called. During the South African war the trade was restricted.
Montreal examining warehouse, additions and alterations, including fittings, furniture, &c., $20,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in addition to the $15,000 previously voted for repairs and alterations in tire examining warehouse at Montreal. I may say that the principal item is $21,000 for freight elevators. This work has been under way for some time. The total cost will be $35,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Has this bean reported as necessary by the officers of the department ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. The old one was discarded at the re-| quest of the Customs Department. Most of 1 the work is being done by contract. Some



small repairs are being done otherwise. The contract for the elevator has not been given out yet.
Mr. UIiAIN. I noticed when this matter was up last year the minister stated it would cost $30,000, now he says it will cost $35,000. Can the minister explain the reason of the different estimates ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know that there is any explanation that I could give. The difference is nut large in an estimate for repairing a large building like this.
Terrebonne, public building, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is t provide for the erection of a new public building in the town of Terrebonne. Although a small town with a population of only about 2,000, according to the last census. I understand it is the most important place in the district. The post office revenue is about $17,000. The money orders issued amounted to $9,670, and those received to $34,000.


Mr. BENNETT.: Has a site been provided by the municipality ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The site has not been provided. The total
cost including the site will not be over


Robert Laird Borden: Is it to' be usid for any other purpose than that of a post office ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is to be used for customs and excise as well as a post office.
Acton Vale public building, $6,000.
The MINISTER OF ' PUBLIC WORKS. This is a new building. I understand that Acton Vale is the principal town in the county of Bagot. The population according to the last census was 1,175. It is estimated to cost about $10,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: It is refreshing to see a large stun like this voted for a public building in a village of the population mentioned, while the promise made by the Minister of Customs and others that the large oud flourishing town of Owen ' Sound should have a public building, has been entirely overlooked.
St. John's-public building, $6,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This building is to be used for the customs and other government officials as well as for a post office. It will be situated in the central part of the town. I believe there is no other public building in the country. If will cost about $10,000. The population of St. John's is over 4,000.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister say there are no other public buildings in the county ? What about the barracks?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I mean for a post office.


Robert Laird Borden: Further down in the same list I see there is a vote proposed for an examining warehouse.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the site been procured ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The site has not been procured.


Edward Frederick Clarke: And the plans have not been prepared ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, they are prepared.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of course, the work will be let by tender?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Richard Blain: Have there been any negotiations with or propositions from the municipality in respect to a site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, I am informed there has been no correspondence in regard to that.


Richard Blain: What proportion of this amount will go to a site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The deputy minister informs me that the site will cost over $1,000.


Richard Blain: Will the balance complete and equip the building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect thinks that this amount will complete it, but my experience is that the fittings generally are extra.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Have they not a drill hall in St. John's already ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: They have a barracks, but no drill hall. They have a military school there.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The plans of this building have been prepared. It was thought wise to prepare plans for this building and not wise to prepare plans for other buildings?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend has misunderstood me. The plans were only prepared for this building because we are erecting similar buildings in other places. In speaking, of the St. John, N.B., drill hall, or of any other large building, it is necessary to prepare special plans, but in this case the plan which is available for other buildings only requires to be changed to suit the site.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then, as a matter of fact, the plan has not been prepared ? It is a general plan ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The plan is prepared for similar buildings,

and that is the plan we go upon in mating this estimate.


Sir.   CLARICE@: A model plan ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A model plan.


Richard Blain: What is the post office and customs revenue at St. John's ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The postal revenue for the last year was $6,912 and the customs duties $119,549.


Robert Laird Borden: For Acton Yale also.


William Humphrey Bennett: The post office revenue at Acton Vale is $838.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 


Robert Laird Borden: And the customs revenue at Acton Vale ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is an outport.


Robert Laird Borden: Is that not a pretty large building for an outport?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A public building there is only defensible under the policy which has been adopted of giving one building to the shire town of each county.


Mrk CLARKE.: The case is a desperate one.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: , There are just a few counties which have no buildings, and it seemed rather invidious to have these counties without a building. The policy which I have indicated was adopted rather to give the shire town or county town, as we call it, a public building ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Why does not Owen Sound get one ?


Richard Blain: What is the policy in respect of caretakers in public buildings in Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In a great many cases the officer in charge lives in the building and takes care of the building at an average cost of about $60 a year.	.


Richard Blain: Will there be a caretaker appointed for this building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think that there is any doubt that the postmaster will be called upon to be the caretaker of this building, whether he lives in it or not. In some cases where the postmaster does not live in the building, he has to take care of it, for which he gets this allowance.


Robert Laird Borden: The building at St. John's and the building at Acton Vale are practically to cost the same?
409*


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They are practically to.cost the same, but my hon. friend will notice that there is a very large postal and customs revenue at St. John's. It is now proposed to erect a new building in a more central part of the town for the accommodation of the people using the post office.


Robert Laird Borden: It is to be used for a post office only ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Assuming that it is, still the postal revenue of St. John's is eight or ten times as much as that of Acton Vale. If a building of that character is sufficient for St. John's, one would suppose a very much less expensive building would be needed for Acton Vale. What is the revenue at St. John's ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Nearly $7,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Aud the revenue at Acton Vale is $838. Why should you have two buildings at practically the same cost ? If a building of this character is reasonably sufficient, and I have no doubt it is, for the post office at St. John's, where the postal revenue is nearly $7,000, upon what principle do you spend the same amount of money at Acton Vale, where the postal revenue is only $838?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If we had been putting up a government building for all the officials of St. John's, the building which we propose to erect would not be large enough, but this is wholly for a post office. At Acton Vale I do not think we could put up a suitable public building for much less than the figure I gave. The population of the town or village does not indicate the number of people who use the post office. People come in for half a mile or more from the surrounding country.


Robert Laird Borden: One would think that the postal revenue would indicate that. I think we started with the same premise that each of these buldings is to be used for the purpose of the post office. There is a separate building at St. John's for the custom-house. If you can erect a post office building at St. John's which is reasonably sufficient for the public needs for $10,000 to transact a business of nearly $7,000 a year, how is it that you are spending the same amount of money for erecting a post office at Acton Vale, where the total postal revenue is less than one-eighth of that amount ? I am afraid the hon. minister has not made himself very clear upon that point.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend perhaps is right, but a man could build a house for the accommodation

of two people which would have the same capacity as a house built to accommodate ten people. When we want a certain number of offices of practically the same size, the difference in the cost of the two buildings is not material for that reason. I do not know whether we could expect to have a permanent and substantial building erected for much less money.


Richard Blain: What rent does the government pay for the public building at present in use at Acton Yale ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We do not pay any rent.


William Humphrey Bennett: An allowance for rent is made to the postmaster ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The post office is furnished by the postmaster, unless there is some special arrangement which I do not know of.


Richard Blain: What allowance is made to the postmaster at Acton Vale for supplying the building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in the Post Office Department, and I know nothing about it.


Richard Blain: It is information we should have when you are taking a vote for such a large sum for a public building.


William Humphrey Bennett: This post office has a revenue of $838 a year, and probably the postmaster is allowed $50 a year for rent. Therefore, we are spending $12,000 for a building when we can rent a suitable one for $50 a year. And yet, in the town of Owen Sound, where the postal revenue is $14,500 a year there is to be no public building erected. This is a shame. The Minister of Customs (Hon. Mr. Paterson) should take some interest in this. He ran an election in North Grey one time, and he promised that Owen Sound should have a public building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: So far as I am personally concerned, I am prepared to admit that the town of Owen Sound should have a public building. There is no town in the province of Ontario, and no town that I know of in the Dominion, that is more entitled to a public building than Owen Sound. I am prepared to take that up later on.


Mr. THOMSON (Grey).: Is it the intention of the government to bring down a vote this session for the erection of a public building in Owen Sound ? I gathered from a remark made by the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) earlier in the session, that it was the intention of the government to place a sum in the estimates for that purpose. I do not see any appropriation in this batch of estimates for Owen Sound, and I wish to know whether any further estimates will be brought down ?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 do not think that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Thomson) will find any statement of mine in * Hansard ' to that effect. Speaking for myself, I said I was in favour of making a recommendation for an appropriation to erect a public building in Owen Sound, but it is impossible for me to say what will be in the estimates before they are published.


Edward Cochrane: Owen Sound is entitled to some consideration from the Minister of Customs. His supporters promised during a certain by-election, that if the Minister of Customs were elected a public building would be given to the town. They voted for the Minister of Customs, but instead of getting a public building they got cold justice. The Minister of Customs is under an obligation to Owen Sound, to implement the promise of his supporters. I can assure him, that though he may fool the people some time he cannot fool them all the time, and if he goes back there for an election he is sure to get beaten.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: It is to be regretted that the government have not submitted an appropriation for the erection of a public building in Owen Sound. In 1896, when the Minister of Customs (Hon. Mr. Paterson) came there to seek election, distinct promises were made that there would be a public building erected in Owen Sound if the hon. gentleman were returned, and in consequence of those promises he received a large majority. I regret to say that the riding of North Grey never received so few favours from the government, as when the . Minister of Customs represented it. At a later election, similar promises were made, and Dr. Horsey was returned. During the late by-elections supporters of the government swarmed the riding, and they declared openly that a public building -would be erected in Owen Sound if a supporter of the present administration were elected.
I may tell the Minister of Public Works, that notwithstanding that Owen Sound is Conservative, it gave a Liberal majority in 1896, for the Minister of Customs on the basis of the promises then made. There is a normal Conservative majority of from 100 to 150 in Owen Sound, and yet Dr. Horsey, in 1900 secured a majority. In the last byelection the promises were repeated and Owen Sound again gave a Liberal majority of 33. Thus, on three occasions, Owen Sound, although a Conservative town, gave a Liberal majority, because of the promises held out by the government. It is time that these election promises were done away with, and that Owen Sound should receive a public building on its own merits, irrespective altogether of political considerations. It shows base ingratitude to Owen Sound, that the government have not carried out their promises. The postal revenue of Owen Sound is about $15,000; the customs revenue, $40,000; the Inland Revenue, $100,000; and not-

withstanding that over $1,000 a year is paid in rents for the accommodation of the officers of the government, it is left without a public building; while a little place like Arichat, in Nova Scotia, with 600 inhabitants add $600 postal revenue gets a $22,000 post office. All through the supplementary estimates the same thing occurs; the government are erecting public buildings in small towns, and side-tracking an important commercial centre like Owen Sound. For instance, Campbellton. New Brunswick, with a population of 2,000 inhabitants, and a postal revenue of about $3,000, gets a public building costing $35,000, and the Minister of Public Works justifies his policy by saying that it is a seaport town and gives so much revenue. But, here is Owen Sound, with 10,000 inhabitants; with a postal revenue of $15,000 a year, and the Minister of Public Works, and the government of which he is a member, refuse to erect a public building in it. Well, the government have fooled the electors of North Grey two or three times, but they cannot continue fooling them for ever. When the next election -comes -around, the electors of Owen Sound will not fall so easily into the Liberal trap as they did on the past three elections, and the government will have to try some other electioneering dodge. I exceedingly regret the conduct of the government in this respect because I would far rather see Owen Sound with a post office and giving a Liberal majority, than without a post office and giving a Conservative majority. I hope that even at this late horn-, the government will bring down an estimate to erect a public building in Owen Sound, I trust that they will not longer neglect so important a town in the great province of Ontario.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I understood the Minister of Public Works to speak very nicely about Owen Sound, and to be in favour of giving a public building. Does lie intend to make any recommendation now, so that an estimate may be passed for the work this session ? Is it not time to fulfil the promises, solemnly repeated again and again to the electors of North Grey ? Surely the Minister of Customs will use his influence to get an appropriation for Owen Sound, which is one of the finest towns in Canada ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have no knowledge of any promise having been made with regard to the erection of a public building in Owen Sound. I did say, speaking for myself, personally, that I was in favour of the erection of a public building at Owen Sound. My hon. friend knows that I am not in a position to say just now what I can do. My hon. friend brought politics into the matter. I have no knowledge of that nor of any promise having been made. All I know is that the town of Owen Sound, from its commercial importance, is entitled on its merits to a public
building, and it will have my best assistance in that direction.


Robert Laird Borden: I have said all I desire to say about the town of Acton Yale. It seems to me that the building proposed to lie erected there is rather large, considering the revenue, especially as compared with the town of St. John's. My hon. friend the Minister of Public Works a moment ago said that he would take up the town of Owen Sound as soon as he came to it. What I cannot understand is why he -should come to the town of Acton Yale, which has a revenue of only $838, and a population of only 1,175, so long before he comes to the town of Owen Sound, with a postal revenue of $15,000, a large revenue from customs and excise, and a population of about 10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. frien'd must know that it is impossible for any minister to meet all the applications at one time. However, I have not changed my opinion with regard to the claims of Owen Sound.
Montmagny-public building, $6,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is this a new building ?


The MINISTER OF FUBLIC WORKS.: No. This is an unfortunate building. It did not belong to the Dominion, and it collapsed in a storm. There were certain conditions with regard to it between the municipality and the department, which seemed to me to be objectionable, and I did not feel like rebuilding it unless those conditions were removed to some extent. It Is also a question for the chief architect to decide whether that would be the most economical course. I am taking this vote for the purpose of leaving the matter in the hands of the department, and seeing whether satisfactory arrangements can be made with the municipality. It will cost between $5,000 and $7,000 to -erect a building, and it would probably cost about the same amount to reconstruct the old building.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the population of that town ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About 2,700.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Does the minister remember that some time ago there was $2,800 voted for that building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, and the money was not spent for the reasons which I have just stated.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: The minister should have sent an engineer to examine the building. In 1897 the member for that county at that time got $7,500 voted for the purchase of this building, and he knew very well from whom he was buying it. The building cost $7,494.75. That building was built on props, right over a mud hole, and that is the reason it went down last winter. There are many

buildings about it which did not go down. The fact is the man who put up that building was sick of it, and he sold it to the government five or six years ago. There is almost $5,000 gone, and the minister asks the House to vote $6,000 more ; that will be $11,000 for a population of 1,110.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think we ought to have a fuller explanation from the minister after what the hon. member has said. Is it the intention of the government to erect another building on the same site or to purchase a new site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend says the officials should examine these buildings. He will at least commend me for having taken action -in not spending money to repair it. The chief architect examined the property and reported this to me, and that is the reason this money was not spent before. Unless the conditions are changed, we shall not perhaps repair that building, but may find it more economical to build a new one. My hon. friend's statement is quite right, so far as I have been able to investigate the matter.


Mr. TALBOT.: I would like to ask the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Morin) what he means by saying that the post office of Montmagny i-s erected over a mud hole and on piles, which I suppose he means when he speaks of props ?


Jean-Baptiste Morin: In the first place, that building was not built for the post office. It was 25 or 30 per cent too large for that purpose. If I am not mistaken, it was used as a club or as a place where music was taught. If you put up another building there, do not build one as large as that.
Montreal post office-improvements, $13,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for putting in an elevator, improving the two passenger elevators, constructing a new street receiver, and making small repairs running from $400 down to $150.
St. Hyacinthe drill hall, $15,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total estimated cost of this building as furnished by the MilStia Department is $24,000.


Samuel Hughes: What regiment occupies this drill hall ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The 84th regiment of infantry of St. Hyacinthe which is now a city battalion of four effective companies.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has a site been purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No site has been purchased. Negotiations were going on some time ago for a very fine site, a large piece of ground on which we had an option at $4,000. A disastrous fire took place in the city, and the municipal


Jean-Baptiste Morin: council approached us with regard to another site near the river. Negotiations for the purchase of the original site would probably have been concluded before now but for that fire.


Samuel Hughes: I would like to have a statement prepared showing what drill sheds have been established in military centres in each of the provinces, giving by numbers the regiments occupying them, and the cost of each. I think that the province of Ontario has acquiesced in the spending of more money for this purpose in other provinces than in Ontario, although these provinces have not as strong militia forces as we have in Ontario.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will get the information in detail, but I have some votes in Ontario coming up later on, and on them I will be glad to explain our policy in regard to this matter.


Richard Blain: I notice that a small amount of money was voted in 1901 for the purchase of the site for this building. In 1902 that amount was increased to $5,000, and now we are asked for $15,000. This seems a strange condition of things as the $5,000 has not been spent and the site is not yet purchased. Does the minister regard that as being consistent with the principle he laid down last session, that he would deal with matters of that kind on business principles ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think my hon. friend (Mr. Blain) did not hear my explanation. When I asked for a vote of $5,000, we had an option for the purchase of a site, but after the disastrous fire in that city the municipal council I approached us with regard to the purchase of a site. If the original site is purchased, this would be all we could possibly spend between now and the end of the fiscal year. The estimated cost of the whole building is $24,000. My idea is that we will be able to prepare specifications, advertise for tenders, and start this work early in the spring, and that $15,000 will be all that we will require for the work to be done up to the end of the fiscal year. The balance will be asked for at a future session.


Richard Blain: What amount have we to pay for a site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Four thousand dollars was the amount of the option we had on a site before the fire.


Richard Blain: Is the proposition now to change the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The municipal council proposed purchasing some property near the river, and they want us to take a portion of it. They have submitted a by-law to the people, and we are waiting for the result of that vote before we decide definitely on the purchase of a site. My hon. friend will understand that

in a large plade like that the government and the department are anxious to meet the views of the municipal council, representing the views of the people.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think that this is a case where we can congratulate the Militia Department. The site has not been procured yet, but I understand the plans are ready. If the Militia Department had the plans ready in advance in some other cases, work would get on more rapidly. I commend the action of the Minister of Militia in having the plans of this building prepared in advance.
St. John's-examining warehouse, $3,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a revote of $3,500 to provide for the erection of an addition in rear of the St. John's public buildings for examining warehouse purposes. The present examining warehouse is an old wooden building set up on blocks ; neither wind nor water-tight; unfit for use and beyond repair.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is this the same town in which the new public building is being erected ?	.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


William Humphrey Bennett: Are there to be two distinct and separate public buildings there ? Why cannot they be combined ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I explained that two or three times.


William Humphrey Bennett: Why, the item has just been called, and I do not see how the hon. minister could have explained it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I explained it on the other item, that for tlie post office building. This is an annex to the public building for >au examining warehouse.


Richard Blain: When the department is putting up a new building cannot they make it sufficiently large to meet the requirements of this branch of the public service also ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: As I explained, this building is not suitably situated for the post office. The customs business there is very large, yielding a revenue of $120,000 a year.
Three Rivers customs house, new heating apparatus, $1,600.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to reconstruct the heating apparatus.


Edward Frederick Clarke: When was the old apparatus put in ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect tells me that it was put in more than twenty years ago.
Longueuil public building, $5,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is this a new building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, this is in the county of Chambly. The population of the town is 2,757, and the postal revenue $612.92.
* Mr. BENNETT. What is the cost of the building and site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The building will cost $10,000. The cost of the site will be small.


William Humphrey Bennett: Will this building serve any other purpose besides that of the post office '!


Edward Frederick Clarke: It will serve election purposes.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for a post office only. In customs, this town is an outport of Montreal. .


William Humphrey Bennett: This is even worse than the other case we have had under discussion. The appearance of this in the estimates is due to the fact that this town is in the district to be presided over by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Mr. Prefon-taine) in election time, and he is going to be true to his record in the past to make elections not with prayers alone, but with something else. I have looked up the report of the Post Office Department, and I find that the public are being served there in a building for which a rental of $40 a year is being paid. There is no complaint that the building is not sufficient; nor does it appear that the postmaster makes any complaint that $40 a year is not a sufficiently high rent. And the total revenue of this post office is $612. I am surprised that the Minister of Customs (Hon. Mr. Paterson) sits there with no word of protest against what he would have called in the old days a scandalous and outrageous expenditure. I remember one occasion, under tlie previous government, when the hon. gentleman who, is now Minister of Customs and others of tlie opposition of that day held the House for a whole night to discuss a proposition that was much more defensible than this one.
I know by the way in which you are looking at me, Mr. Chairman (Mr. Macdonald) you would like to have an opportunity to protest against this expenditure. It is refreshing to see these gentlemen, so blatant in the past in their professions of economy, proposing an expenditure of $10,000 for a public building in a town like this. Not only must that building be paid for, but it must be heated and lighted and a. caretaker for it must be paid. I congratulate the Minister of Marine and Fisheries on securing this grant, and I sympathize with the Minister of Public Works, because I know that it is against his will that this grant is going through.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Not only is this a violation of the professions of hon. gentlemen in times past, but it is also an injustice

to many of the larger towns in the province of Ontario. There has been added to my constituency another township and town, a very important town-Meaford. The population is about 2,000 and the revenue from the post office is between $3,000 and $4,000. Money orders to the amount of $25,000 are issued there yearly. That town is left without a post office. There ought to be some principle or rule to guide the government [DOT] in making these grants for public buildings. It is to be regretted that such grants as these are proposed. They involve a flagrant violation of the promises made by hon. gentlemen opposite when in opposition. They may think it very clever; they may think they can ' fix ' a constituency by this means. But it is no credit to the Liberal party. It is something that they will have to defend, and that will always furnish ground of attack on the part of their opponents. It is a shame that a government that came in under such splendid auspices should descend to such a despicable means to keep themselves in office.


Samuel Hughes: The town of Bracebridge which has 3,000 or 4,000 inhabitants was promised a post office building. I see the promises made to that town are being carried out in part by giving them a dock. But they were promised a post office during the last election. I regret that the hon. member for North Ontario (Mr. Grant) is silent, and that the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) is not here to insist on the Minister of Public Works putting in an item for that building. I trust we shall yet hear from the hon. member for North Ontario.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is it not possible to get a little more light on this subject ? We are putting these estimates through with very inadequate information. What is to be the total cost of this building ? Has the site been secured ? Are the plans prepared ? We seem to be going it blind in most of these cases.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) must admit that I have given that information already.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I did not so understand it. What is to be the total cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I gave that, but I will repeat it. It will cost $10,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Ten thousand dollars. In a place with postal receipts of only six hundred dollars ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Its being the only building in the county is the only defence I can put in, aside from the population and the receipts.


Richard Blain: Perhaps the minister will give us the policy of his department on this question. It is rather difficult for us to Mr. THOMSON (Grey).
understand why very much larger towns in other parts of Canada, having a much larger revenue, are overlooked. Now, the minister feels it his duty to grant this request made to him, and we are not complaining of that; but we think the public should understand what is the policy that guides the minister in the erection of public buildings, whether it is the population, whether it is the revenue that is paid into the Customs and Post Office Departments, or whether it is merely a political reason. It is very important that the public should know what policy is guiding him, so that they may know when to come to the government for a public building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have explained to the committee the policy with regard to the erection of these buildings. I am willing to admit that the revenue and the population should be the principal considerations. My hon. friend knows that it has 'been the policy to give at least one public building in each county.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I may say that the receipts of the post office at Longueuil, my native town, have been a disgrace to the place for years. To my knowledge petition after petition were sent to the Conservative government during many years, asking for a public building there. But no attention was paid to them, for the reason, I believe, that the town was Liberal. I cannot see any other reason. Since the advent of the present government, in 1896, petitions have been presented time and again, and the people have been promised a new post office. The fact that the town is situated on the south shore of the St. Lawrence, opposite the city of Montreal, probably accounts for the revenue being so small, because the people who go over to Montreal in the daytime take their letters with them and deposit them there. The letters would reach their destination sboner if deposited in Montreal than if deposited in Longueuil. Also many people receive their letters in Montreal instead of Longueuil. The grievance complained of by the people with respect to their post office ought to be remedied and is going to be remedied by the present government. For myself, I have had nothing to do with it. I no longer represent Chambly since 1896, when that county was joined to VerchSres.


Samuel Hughes: 
The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: That is what I have just explained.


William Humphrey Bennett: It is plain from what has been said by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that this is more of a job than

ever. He says that a good many people living in Longueuil have their business connections in the city of Montreal as a matter of course, and as a consequence there is little or no necessity for a post office building in that town. He also says that for the last seven years-I suppose he is now taking a fling at the Postmaster General in his absence-in saying the post office in Longueuil has been a disgrace to that town.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I did not say for the last six or seven years. I said that for years gone by, for the last twenty-five or thirty years.


William Humphrey Bennett: That only makes it worse. The hon. gentleman says that for many years the people have been complaining of this grievance. There was a course open to them, simply to make a complaint to the Postmaster General that the premises were not sufficient for the post office business, and then it would have been the duty of the Postmaster General either to provide suitable premises or to resign. It was not to be expected that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries would be looking after matters so trivial as the public good of Longueuil, seeing that the more important interests of Montreal took up his attention. Being a suburb of the city of Montreal, the people cross over to Montreal to do their business, and consequently we have only the trifling receipts of $600 at the post office. Yet now the country is to be plunged into an expenditure that will probably run up to $15,000. Moreover, you will require a caretaker for that bulding, you will have to pay the interest on the money, and pay for the heating, lighting and so forth. Once more I congratulate the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that, if he is not given more patronage in his department, he is at least allowed the privilege of dispensing the loaves and fishes to the electors in the district of Montreal.


Edward Cochrane: I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works to a very important town in East Northumberland, the town of Campbellford. The post office receipts at that office are $3,241 ; money orders, $20,870 ; and the allowance for rent is $140. I am safe in saying that is one of the most flourishing manufacturing towns in that section of the country. I know it has been said that Cobourg has a public building, but I want to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that Cobourg is the county town of the united counties of Northumberland and Durham. Campbellford is between thirty and forty miles from Cobourg, and I think it has strong claims upon the department for additional public buildings. I think there has been a vote this session for Bowmanville, in the county of Durham. I want to draw the hon. minister's attention to the fact that
as there are three or four manufacturing industries at Campbellford, there must be quite a large revenue from the customs and post office. I am satisfied that if the hon. minister will agree to put an amount in the estimates for a building there the town will gladly furnish a site.


Richard Blain: I notice that when the hon. minister was in opposition he had a principle in respect to the expenditure of money for public buildings, and perhaps, although the hon. gentleman has been in office for some years, it might be well to refresh his memory in regard to it. In discussing the vote for a post office in 1895, the hon. minister said :
The hon. minister disregards altogether the amount of revenue received under the various departments but that should be recognized as a principle governing the erection of these public buildings irrespective of party reasons.
May I ask the hon. gentleman if lie holds the same opinion now ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, I hold the same opinion still, and I am trying to carry it out as far as I am personally concerned.


Richard Blain: The hon. minister lias not changed his policy in so far as his statement goes, but the practice does not quite live up to the statement. If that be the policy of the hon. gentleman now, would he be good enough to tell us why he has not considered it his duty to recommend an appropriation to erect a public building in Owen Sound, which has been referred to by my hon. friend from North Grey (Mr. Thomson), and which has a population of 10,000 and a revenue of $15,000, while he has conceived it to be his duty to recommend an appropriation for a place which has a revenue of $600 and a population of 2,400 ? The hon. minister has made the statement that it is the policy of the government that one of the principal points, the shire town in each county shall be recognized. May I remind the hon. gentleman that Owen Sound is the county town of Grey. This matter was brought to the hou. gentleman's attention at the last session Of parliament, and he is very well informed as to the condition of things there. Would he be good enough to tell us why it is that in making these further appropriations, Owen Sound has been overlooked ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have already told the hou. gentleman that it has not been overlooked. The matter is under consideration, and I did say that the policy which has been laid down by a majority of the members of this House, and which I think is a good policy, that the revenue should be tlie most important factor in connection with these public buildings, ought to be considered. It seems also to be the idea of the majority of the members of the House that one public building should be given to a county. My hon. friend has

said that Owen Sound is entitled to consideration from both of these standpoints, and I acknowledge it.


John Graham Haggart: How am I going to explain to my constituents the principle upon which money of this kind is allocated? Here are two little towns In lower Canada, Longueuil and Acton Vale, one with a population of 1,200, and the other, with receipts altogether from customs, excise and post office of less than $600. The government probably get about $100 a year of revenue from Longueuil. Yet they are building a post office which will involve an expenditure of anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000. The town of Perth has no public building of any kind erected by the government. The receipts from the j)ost office are nearly $6,000 a year, the amount deposited in the post office savings bank is larger than that deposited in any town of a like population in Canada ; the population is a little over 4,000; it has inland revenue receipts of $05,000, and customs receipts of about $30,000. The government are receiving in all about $126,000 a year from the town of Perth, and there is no sum at all given for a public building. If this happened to be located somewhere near Terrebonne or in some of the maritime provinces there would have been a large allowance for a public building. If the proportion of population and revenue considered sufficient to justify the erection of a public building in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick were applied to the town of Perth, nearly every third building would be a public building, but, there is no public building at all.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are not many more counties to be supplied and the town of Perth will have to be considered.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he proposes to bring down further supplementary estimates this session ? I can scarcely realize that in face of all that has been said, they will not include so important a town as Owen Sound.
I felt very confident that the government would make some provision this session for a public building there, and I am very much disappointed that it has not been included in these supplementary estimates.
I would therefore ask the hon. minister if he is going to bring down further supplementary estimates this session ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot answer that question at the present moment.


Edward Cochrane: The hon. minister did not give me any consolation about Campbell-ford.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) certainly made out a very good case. I have noted the matter, and it will receive consideration.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: 


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The constituency of my hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) is in Ontario. I notice that at Campbeliton, where they have a revenue of $3,800, just the same as Campbellford, and a population of about 1,000, they are spending about $35,000.


Samuel Hughes: Where do you get the population from-the census ?


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: It is not an Incorporated town as far as is shown by the census, but it is an unincorporated village. Yet, the government purpose spending $35,000 for a public building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is in New Brunswick.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: It is very similar in name to the town that my hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) brings to the attention of the hon. minister, but the fact of my hon. friend being in Ontario seems to debar him from getting any assistance towards the erection of a public buillding in Campbellford.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend from South Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart) has referred to the maritime provinces. I would like to inform him that the maritime provinces are not in this class at all. I have been looking at the post office revenue in Nova Scotia, and I find that there are thirty or forty places without public buildings in that province which have a larger revenue than these two places which are now to have public buildings.
Montreal-barracks for permanent corps, $20,000.


Samuel Hughes: Would the hon. minister please give a full explanation of this item ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a new vote of $20,000 for the erection of a barracks for one unit of the permanent corps at Montreal. The estimated cost is $126,000. We own the site, and the city of Montreal, as I am informed, have placed to our credit $25,000 to be devoted to this object.


Samuel Hughes: Where are those barracks to be ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: On Lafontaine park, formerly known as Logan's Farm.


Samuel Hughes: What corps is to be brought there ; is it to be a new addition to the strength of the force ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The idea is to have a battery of garrison artillery and a detachment of infantry-in all, 200 men. It is estimated that the accommodation for these will cost from $100,000 to $125,000, of which the city of Montreal has voted $25,000. It would seem to me very desirable, in the public interest, that in a great city like Montreal there should be at least a small detachment

of the permanent force. It has been found to be very useful in Toronto.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister purpose retaining the corps at St. John's ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is proposed to transfer the infantry from St. John's to Montreal and to establish a cavalry corps at St. John's.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There will be an addition to the permanent militia force ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is an addition of 200 involved in this.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The building is to cost $125,000 and $25,000 of that is provided by the municipality of Montreal.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is it, and the site is now owned by the government.


Samuel Hughes: I heartily endorse the idea of having an institution in Montreal, in which officers, or non-commissioned officers or cadets, could get a military training. As the minister knows, I do not believe that the proper plan for giving that system of instruction is to have a permanent corps, in the ordinary sense of the word. I think it can be accomplished much more economically and much more efficiently by the means which I have already explained to the House.
Quebec drill hall-addition to building, $20,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide for additional ground adjacent to the drill hall


Samuel Hughes: You cannot get any more ground than you have there.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think that is an error. There may be a small corner in front of the drill! hall that ought to be acquired, but I do not know that it is necessary. The explanation is this. A certain sum of money was contributed by the Quebec government and by the city of Quebec towards the construction of the drill ball originally, and it was understood that the city should have the right to use the building for exhibition purposes, &c. This dual ownership has not worked satisfactorily, and as the military corps have increased in Quebec, it has been found impossible to give them the accommodation they ought to have. The local government and the city have intimated to us that if the government will give the increased accommodation, which is very desirable, they would absolutely give up their title to the drill hall. There are now in the city of Quebec no less than eight different military units.


Samuel Hughes: Not counting the permanent corps ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Not counting the permanent corps.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the total strength?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I cannot remember. There is a battery of field artillery; two squadrons of cavalry, the Queen's Own; a regiment of garrison artillery; the 8th and 9th battalions of infantry, both first-rate regiments; No. 1 company, A.S.C.; No. 5 bearer company, and No. 3 field hospital corps. It is absolutely necessary that additional accommodation should be provided, and it seems to me that the offer made by the provincial government and the city of Quebec ought to be accepted.


Samuel Hughes: It is stated in an evening paper that No. 3 battery is to be removed from Kingston to Ottawa.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That statement is without the slightest foundation; there is not a word of truth in it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is $20,000 the total sum required for this purpose ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Ves.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I would not like to say that it will be sufficient.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is the explanation given to me.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Of course, the Minister of Public Works would know, but I should think that it would cost more.


Samuel Hughes: What is the status of the government of Canada in relation to the Plains of Abraham ? That ground is being rapidly handed over for' building purposes, and this historic spot, in which the people of Canada have some interest, is being hedged around with houses, so that you can hardly see Wolfe's monument at the present time. It is needless to remark that both the English and the French people regard the Plains of Abraham with some veneration.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The Plains of Abraham were purchased by the Dominion government and handed over to the city of Quebec for a park, to be used only for the purpose of a park, and subject to the right of the Department of Militia and Defence to use the grounds for military purposes.


Robert Laird Borden: There is no building going on upon the plains under these conditions ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I do not think there is.


Robert Laird Borden: The city of Halifax has certain rights in the northern com-

mon of Halifax which are subject to certain conditions imposed by the imperial government, namely, that no buildings shall be put up within a certain distance ; and tin's condition is rigidly adhered to, so that when a little temporary shed was erected on the common a few years ago the imperial government got an injunction to prevent it being continued, although it was of the most flimsy character and was intended to be kept there only a few weeks. If the government have similar rights with, respect to the Plains of Abraham, I think these rights should be enforced, and no buildings should he allowed to be erected there.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA ANI) DEFENCE. I will make inquiries at once. I think our position with respect to the Plains of Abraham is as strong as the position of the imperial government with respect to the Halifax common.
Sherbrooke drill hall. $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is one of a number of votes which I am asking the House to authorize for the purpose of furnishing proper quarters for the militia force throughout the Dominion. I feel that we might almost as well give up our organization unless we provide better accommodation, both for tile men and for the arms and accoutrements. The present lack of accommodation has been discouraging to officers and men who give of their time and means for the maintenance of a militia force in Canada. We have had a good deal of complaint in the House from time to time as to the expensiveness of our system, and I think the provision of better quarters for the care of arms and accoutrements will be a measure of economy. We have given the subject a good deal of att?n-tion, and, as the result of conferences witii the officials of the Militia Department, we have come to the conclusion that we can erect a building which will be permanent, substantial and suitable in each of the larger places throughout the Dominion for about $25,000.


Samuel Hughes: I might point out that Sherbrooke is the largest centre in the eastern townships.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am not speaking specially of Sherbrooke I am speaking generally. My hon. friend will agree with me that we cannot spend from $125,000 to $150,000 in each of these places.


Samuel Hughes: What is the St. Hyacinthe drill hall to cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 


Samuel Hughes: And you propose to spend the same amount in a place like Sherbrooke ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think that in places like Sherbrooke, Belie-Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
ville and Stratford we can erect a building which will give satisfaction at a cost of about $25,000. It will be an encouragement to the officers and men of the militia force to have this accommodation, and it will protect our property. We all know that many of our valuable guns have been destroyed and the accoutrements have been injured for[DOT] want of proper care, sometimes before they cotdd be used in a second camp.


Samuel Hughes: Sherbrooke is the centre of what the minister is very properly turning into a cavalry district ; so that there will be infantry, cavalry and artillery there, and the town occupies a very important strategic position. 1 think the minister should make provision for a dr'll hall suitable for the wants of the whole district. If he can afford to vote $24,000 for a small centre like St. Hyacinthe, where there are only four companies, surely be ought to be prepared to appropriate $125,000 for a large centre like Sherbrooke, which is surrounded by cavalry, infantry, and artillery.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Not artillery. I may say that it is intended to carry out at St. Hyacinthe the very scheme of organizing cavalry 1o which the hon. gentleman refers. I beiieve it will be an admirable district for recruiting at least one cavalry regiment. In Sherbrooke there is at present one cavalry regiment and one infantry regiment.
Three Rivers custom house-retaining wall, $2,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to pay the balance of the contract. The work is completed.
St. Louis de Mile End-public building, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to make provision for the erection of a public building for post office purposes. The population is 10,933.


William Humphrey Bennett: It seems extraordinary that the post office receipts at that point are only $640.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The receipts go into the Montreal office. The policy of the department seems to be to accommodate the people with these postal stations.


William Humphrey Bennett: What will the total cost of the building be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About $15,000, including the site.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: This town will be annexed to the city of Montreal in a short time. Its population is increasing at the rate of about 1.000 a year. It is where the Canadian Pacific Railway locomotive works are situated.
Montreal new postal station-fittings and furniture, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In this particular case we rented a building on very favourable terms on St. Cathar'nes street, and we are establishing a postal station there. This vote is for the fittings and furniture.


Robert Laird Borden: What is a postal station as distinguished from a post office ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: As I understand it the idea is that instead of having all the mail sent to the head office, as at present, involving delay in sorting, the mails will be sorted on the train or at the railway station, and sent to the postal stations for distribution, each station serving a certain district of the city.
Magog-public building, $5,000.


Samuel Hughes: Is there any other public building in the same constituency ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is to make provision for the purchase of a site for the erection of a public building in the town of Magog for post office and customs purposes. The population at the last census was 3,515, the postal revenue $2,500, and the customs revenue, $6,312.


William Humphrey Bennett: What are the site and the buildings to cost respectively ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This building will cost about $12,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: And how much for the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I suppose the site will cost between $500 and $1,000.
Mi*. HUGHES (Victoria). Is there any other public building in the county ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand there is one at Coaticook.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: 1 think there is a public building at Coaticook, although I am not quite sure. The two towns are at the extreme ends of the county.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Which is the shire town ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is no shire town. A circuit court is held for each place, but municipal meetings are held at Ayer's Flat, which is mid-way between the two places, and has a population of 100 or 200.


Samuel Hughes: How does the minister explain his rule that he will only give one public building in each riding '! He seems to be departing from it in this ease.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are exceptions, and as the Minister of Agriculture has pointed out, there seems to be a town in each end of this riding.


Robert Laird Borden: In order to justify these votes, I think that more than one reason is necessary.
Public buildings-Ontario, Belleville armoury, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The armoury at Belleville was condemned and ordered to be pulled down. This vote is in accordance with the policy of the department of establishing these headquarters for tlie militia throughout the province.


Samuel Hughes: I do not see any item here for a drill hall for Lindsay. While I had command of the regiment there,
I felt more or less delicacy about asking for the drill shed. I may call attention to the fact that the town has furnished many good military men, and is nearly three times as large as some of the towns in other provinces to which $10,000 and $25,000 halls are being given. I trust the Minister of Militia and the Minister of Public Works will not allow many more estimates to pass through without placing in them an item for a drill shed in Lindsay.
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Did I understand my hon. friend to say that Lindsay was considerably larger than towns to which military appropriations are given ?


Samuel Hughes: It is about three times the size of St. Ilyacinthe.
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	ANDDEFENCE. I think	St. Hyacinthe is	much
larger than Lindsay.
The	MINISTER	OF	AGRICULTURE.
It is nearly 15,000.


Samuel Hughes: I hope the kon. minister will be good enough to take this into his serious consideration and let us have a drill shed.


Robert Laird Borden: What will this building cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This building is expected to cost about $25,000. I wish it to be distinctly understood that this is one of those buildings that will come under the category of which I have spoken. My chief architect tells me that probably we are making too low an estimate, but I think the architects ought to be able to make arrangements for good headquarters for about that money, and I think that my hon. friend will admit that the Militia Department in making these recommendations and carrying them out has had regard to the necessities of the militia, and has made the recommendations without regard to political considerations. The recommendations made are generally for places where the necessities are urgent, and these are the larger places.


Samuel Hughes: Belleville is headquarters for two infantry regiments and will require a good armoury.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In these places some distinction has to be made. More or less room is required in the armoury according as they are to be used for infantry, or for cavalry and artillery.


Richard Blain: Will tenders be publicly called for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All these, Mir. Chairman, will be built by contract after tenders are publicly called for.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We ought to be able to see the plans.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The plans ar.e under consideration between the Militia and Public Works Departments.
Peterborough-armoury, $10,000.


Samuel Hughes: The present building in Peterborough is quite unsuited for the requirements of the militia there and the minister is perfectly right in building this drill shed. There are two corps there, in fact, there are parts of three -corps, an infantry regiment, one section of artillery, and a couple of squadrons of cavalry.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will the building cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About the same as the others-$25,000.
Guelph-armoury, $10,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will this building be of the same size and cost as the others V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At Guelph there are two batteries and one of the largest rifle regiments in the district. In that case there will be additions necessary for the artillery. Except for this, the building for the armoury will be about the same.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What about the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There will be no difficulty about the site.


Mr. GUTHRIE.: I may say that this building is very badly needed, as the militia in Guelph are mot at all well provided for. There are ten -companies there. The present building used for the storage of guns is so completely filled that it is difficult to pass through it. There are twelve guns, with limbers, wagons, harness and accoutrements. It is proposed also to have in Guelph a branch of the Army Service Corps, and it will take a building of considerable size to store their equipment. The rifles are now stored in the cellar of the drill shed. It is headquarters also for the regimental band.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Does not the hon. gentleman (Mr. Guthrie) think that he has neglected his constituency when he has allowed this state of things to continue ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Thomson, Grey) Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
were Minister of Public Works or Minister of Militia, he would acquit the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) of being at all neglectful. He has been very persistent in this demands.


Samuel Hughes: There are two batteries in Guelph, and excellent batteries they are. No doubt the Minister of Militia and the Minister of Public Works will allow for the fact that it will require a larger building than an ordinary drill shed to accommodate the guns ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I explained that that was taken into consideration.


Richard Blain: I see that very considerable sums are to be voted in these -supplementary estimates for the -construction of mew armouries in certain towns in Ontario. I would be glad if the hon. Minister of Militia would give us a statement of the policy of his department in connection with the construction of buildings for our militia in central towns in this province. A considerable number of towns have been recognized but a still larger number seem to have been forgotten.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: My hon. friend (Mr. Blain) will understand that it is impossible to do this work all at once. It will involve between one and two million dollars, and perhaps more, to properly house the different militia corps throughout this country. We are going on as rapidly as possible throughout the country, and I assure my hon. friend that we are selecting the places in which these buildings are to be constructed on the advice of military men and from a non-partisan, a purely military point of view. With regard to the rural districts and the smaller towns where there is only say, one unit, my idea is that we should construct a substantial building which can be headquarters, armoury and storehouse, and with a room sufficiently large for a lecture room, where the officers who take an interest in military matters can bring their men together in the evening, and, by means of blackboards and so on, illustrate military affairs and give necessary instruction. This is the idea I have, and that I hope to be able to begin to carry it out in the near future. My plan will include every village of any importance in the Dominion of Canada.


John Graham Haggart: How many years will it take to carry that out V


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think it can be done in five or six years, and that the total cost will be in the neighbourhood of a million and a quarter or a million and a half dollars.
Mr. COCHRANE What has been done with reference to the armoury in Cobourg ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The site has been procured, the plans are about complete, and advertisements for tenders will appear at an early day.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I should have added that there is a vote in the estimates of a lump sum for the Public Works Department for the construction of smaller armouries.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not the Public Works.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: At any rate, the places have not yet been selected, all of them at any rate. If my hon. friend has any particular place in mind, if he will bring it to my attention, I shall be glad to consider it.
M. BLAIN. I brought this matter to the attention of the government at two former sessions of parliament. I may say that the Minister of Militia has been very very kiud in the matter. I would like to know if the town of Brampton, the headquarters for the 36th Peel Battalion, which is a rather important militia corps in Ontario, has been provided for in the general vote ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENSE.: I have not the information at hand, but I will make a note of the matter and will be able to give my hon. friend the facts when the Militia estimates are before the committee.


Richard Blain: I may say that the 36th is a very large and rather important corps. At present they have practically no place for the storage of their arms, and the officers are complaining constantly. They find the membership of the company is decreasing because of the difficulties under which the corps labour. I do not wish to complain, but it does seem that some one must be at fault if even a small amount cannot be appropriated for the purpose of remedying this state of affairs. I think the suggestion of the Minister of Militia is a very good and reasonable suggestion, and I hope he will be able to carry it out in the near future, and that some appropriation will be made for the corps I have referred to.


Samuel Hughes: I would point out that the regimental district Joins the city of Toronto and the county of York, and the very fact that he complains of in relation to the regiment, is verified by the condition of affairs there. Many of the officers of that regiment belong to the city of Toronto, and the entire absence of armouries or places where the officers can meet and instruct and drill their men, has a tendency to diminish greatly the number of officers from the county, and the young officers in the city have taken the places of those who belong to the county. I know of no place in the rural districts where an armoury is more needed than in the county of Peel.


William Humphrey Bennett: I hope the minister will take into consideration the claims of Orillia, where no less than three companies have their headquarters.


Edward Cochrane: I desire to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that there is a cavalry company and an infantry company having their headquarters at Col-borne, and who complain of insufficient accommodation. Colborne is so far away from Cobourg that the cavalry have to have a sto'Fage room of their own.


William Humphrey Bennett: The minister, I hope, will also provide for the filling up of that)
' skeleton of a skeleton ' of a regiment that is centred in the county of Haldimand.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think the member for Haldimand (Mr. Thompson) hit the nail on the head when he said that it was simply ridiculous to expect men to go to drill for 50 cents a day.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: While provision is being made for drill sheds in various parts of the country, I would call attention to the condition of the drill shed in the town of Flesherton, which is now getting into a bad condition of disrepair from leaky roofs. It was erected by the government a number of years ago, and the officers have repeatedly made application for money to repair the roof and to put the building in fair condition for drill. They have an armoury in the building well fitted up but unserviceable owing to leaky roof. I have heard the officers complaining again and again that they cannot get an appropriation for repairs.
Toronto drill hall-additional accommodation tor new corps, $20,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We are obliged to the hon. gentleman for this appropriation. Is it expected that this sum will be sufficient to give the additional accommodation that is required ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, I do not think it will. I feel strongly on this question, and I think that we should do something and do it promptly, and in order to make a beginning we are asking for this vote.
Toronto military buildings-building for storage of wagons, &c., of engineer, $3,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Where is this to be erected ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: On a site provided by the Toronto University. This building is required for the storage of the baggage of the Toronto engineer corps.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The engineer corps is a new college corps, and the university is providing the land.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I drew attention to the fact that there are some small store-rooms

in St. Andrew's ball being used by tlie militia authorities for storing supplies. Is any provision being made for tbe construction of a building in which to put these stores?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am not able to answer that question.
Ottawa departmental buildings, Western Block, overhauling heating apparatus, &c., $6,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This heating system has been in operation for 40 years and is working very unsatisfactorily. The air accumulates in the radiators, and the consequence is a terrible noise, which is a great nuisance. This work is intended to be done by the present staff. The chief architect has made up a detailed estimate of the cost, and he thinks this will complete the work. The noise is something fearful, and the clerks are complaining all the time. In addition to that, it does not give the heat it should.


Samuel Hughes: In this connection, I would point out that the ventilation of this House could very easily be changed for the better, the only drawback to a perfect ventilation being the fact that the fans make a little noise. I have examined the apparatus since the subject was up the other evening, and I am satisfied that the system is almost perfect as it is, if it was only put into operation, but it is never operated because the fans make a little noise; therefore, the machinery is shut off, and the consequence is that we sit here breathing foul air. The thermometer at this moment registers over 70. I would suggest that the fans be removed a little higher up, and we can change the air every two minutes.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The attention of the chief architect will be called to the matter.


Samuel Hughes: I may say, at the same time, that I do not think the lighting is as good as it should be. The lighting of this chamber is not at all as good as it was under the former system.
Rideau Hall and grounds-repairs and improvements, $4,500.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the hon. gentleman explain that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Sixty-two square yards of galvanized roof, $775 ; shingling, $302 ; painting, $1,280 ; sidewalks, $750 ; kitchen equipment and other items, making altogether $4,500.
Ottawa departmental buildings-steel drawers and rollers, shelves, &c., $63,000.


Mr. BIRKETT.: Have tenders ibeen asked for these steel drawers and rollers ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We do not advertise for tenders. There are only three manufacturers in Canada making these things.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 


William Humphrey Bennett: Where are they ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At Gananoque, Ottawa and Toronto.


William Humphrey Bennett: What about the Newmarket one ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That has its head office at Toronto. When the different departments apply for equipment these firms are asked for figures, and they give us quotations on the specifications and requirements of the different departments.


Thomas Birkett: I understood that there was not a fair distribution of these contracts, that the Ottawa manufacturers were not satisfied with the proportion of the cabinets that they were asked to supply to the government.


William Humphrey Bennett: What amount of goods of this class was purchased from the Newmarket Company last year, or from the company which has its head office in Toronto ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not that information here. But I will have a statement made out and lay it on the Table of the House, or I will give it to my hon. friend, of the different purchases that have been made.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is it a fact that the hon. Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mu-lock) is a large stockholder in the Newmarket Company ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know, but I would assume that there would not likely be any foundation in the fact for the statement that the hon. Postmaster General is interested in that company in any way.


William Humphrey Bennett: I am sorry that the hon. Postmaster General is not here at the present time, 'but it must not be assumed that the hon. minister cannot be interested in that company. In the first place, Newmarket is in the hon. gentleman's constituency. The hon. Minister of Agriculture was interested in a stock company that had very large transactions with this government, in a company that was taking thousands of dollars from a department. It is quite true that the hon. Minister of Agriculture transferred his stock to a near relative. Perhaps the hon. Postmaster General may have followed the good example of the hon. Minister of Agriculture, and transferred his stock to a near relative before having any dealings with the government. Perhaps, when the matter comes up again, the hon. Postmaster General may be here, and we can renew the question.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, let him speak for himself.


William Humphrey Bennett: I may say that in the town of Newmarket the hon. Postmaster
130S9

General is credited with being interested in this company.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would like to ascertain just what the plan is that has been adopted. There are three firms manufacturing these steel drawers and rollers. It is proposed to take $63,000 for the purpose of purchasing this equipment for the departmental offices. What plan is adopted ? Are public teuders asked for, or are circulars simply sent to these three firms ? Sixty-three thousand dollars is a very large item.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Most of this money is to pay for orders that have been given. Since I have been in the department I have not given orders to any of these firms. I think when there are only three manufacturers if they are all asked for prices, we can get as low a price as if we advertised in the papers. There is quite as good competition as if we spent money advertising in the papers.


Richard Blain: Surely the hon. minister does not understand that to be the proper policy in respect of public competition ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: What would my hon. friend do if he wanted to buy cheaply and there were only three manufacturers in the country ? Would my hon. friend spend $40, $50 or $100 for advertising in the papers instead of asking the three manufacturers to submit prices ?


Richard Blain: I would. I would have no hesitation, and I think the country would justify the hon. minister in spending $40 or $50 in advertising and asking for tenders for supplies involving an expenditure of $63,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: Let me inform the hon. gentleman that this is made up of 25, or 30, or 40 items. This is not for $03,000 worth of supplies to be furnished at one time. The various offices apply for small quantities at different times.


Richard Blain: I understand that. I think the equipment is about the same in each of the offices. I am not complaining about that. It seems to be modern and up to date. But surely, when the hon. minister asks for $63,000 to be appropriated for a specific purpose, the public would expect that he should ask for public tenders. The hon. minister will not say that he is always posted as to how many firms are in a position to supply these goods. It may be that there are many others than the three manufacturers to whom the hon. minister has referred who are in a position to supply them. It will be quite within the range of possibility that these three manufacturing establishments may hear of this discussion and will understand the policy of the government. We can readily understand that it would be an easy matter for them to come 410
to an arrangement whereby each would supply $20,000 or $25,000 worth, and there would be no competition at all. I think the public will expect the hon. minister to change the policy of the department, if that is his policy at the present time, and that when he is going to ask for supplies to the value of $63,000 he will put an advertisement in the papers and allow all the people that are overdue ? If I understood the supplying this class of goods to tender, so that the public will understand that there is public competition rather than that three manufacturers in this country should simply be asked to submit prices for the supply of these goods.


William Humphrey Bennett: Are we to understand that the hon. minister during the coming year is going to expend $63,000 on these articles, or is this vote applicable to articles of this class that have already been supplied, and if they have been supplied, to what extent ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: I will have to have a full statement made out In the accountant's branch as to wliat is due and what orders have been previously given. Applications come from the various departments. This would not supply all the applications of various departments for these equipments, but It will cover the most urgent ones and pay the orders that were previously given. I will make inquiry and bring down a memorandum.


William Humphrey Bennett: For the orders that were given in the past, is the House to understand that no tenders were called for, but that the hon. gentleman's department obtained a certain portion from each one of these three companies, and that the three companies settled the price that they were to uniformly charge ? Is that correct, and if so, is it to be the practice this year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It was suggested that the department should ask for quotations from all parties in the business, and where a special article is being manufactured by three or four firms oqly, I think every business man will agree with me that better results are obtained from this system than from advertising in the public press, unless it be that you purchase in the United States. The Auditor General, who is very strict in regard to accounts of this kind, holds that where there are only a few well known reputable firms manufacturing special articles, it is quite sufficient to ask them for tenders by mail. The officers of the department would lie able to judge if tile prices were fair, and they would know if there was any attempt to unduly enhance the prices.


William Humphrey Bennett: The majority of these post office fittings are imported from the United States, and are not made in Canada.


The MINISTER OE PUBLIC WORKS.: Since I have been in the department, I have never given an order outside of Canada.


William Humphrey Bennett: The postmaster In my town supplies them himself, and he biings them in from the United Statets.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is not done by the department.


William Humphrey Bennett: But here is a supply costing 165,000, and instead of publicly calling for tenders, you ask three firms to make offers, and leave it to some gentleman in the department to decide whether or not the price is fair. Suppose you carry that principle out further ; if there are three mail routes running out of a village, the Postmaster General will not arrange privately to have the service performed, but will call for tenders, even if the cost is only $50 a year. Here is a contract for $05,000, and no tenders are asked. It is strangely suspicious that the company that is getting the largest end of the order, is a company which I am informed the Postmaster General is supposed to be interested in ; and even if lie is not so interested, they carry on business in the leading town in his riding. -


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no order given for more than $2,000, unless the department were fitting up a very large building and it would not be more than $5,000 at the outside. I have no particular objection to advertising, but I believe it to be a waste of money.


William Humphrey Bennett: I am rather suspicious that there is something in it, for the reason that I am bound to say that there are no tenders called for these large red boxes on the street corners in which you put newspapers. They are made up at a little foundry in Aurora, in the riding of the Postmaster General. I know that, because I saw one of them placed on the train the other evening, when I was coming through. The Postmaster General is simply bringing grist to his own mill in every direction. We had an example of it here a few weeks ago, when he was dragging and collecting mail bags from one end of the Dominion to the other. I am still strong in the suspicion that the Postmaster General is one of the stockholders in this company and that lie has been using his influence not to have public competition, but to be able to place the orders for these goods at their own
price.
Mr. BI-AIN. What proportion of this $05,000 has already been expended ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will bring down that statement.
Mr. with
these
called
BI-AIN. I differ fr m the minister regard to the method of purchasing goods. I admit, that if tenders are for, they should specify that the


William Humphrey Bennett: goods should be manufactured in Canada, but I do not think that the minister or his department should be the judges as to how many firms in Canada are in a position to supply these goods. Whether that be right or wrong in the interests of the government, it is certainly not in the interests of the people. The practice advocated by the minister in this respect will at least be always open to suspicion. I think the minister should state to the House now, that in future, he will ask for public tenders and give every man in the country an opportunity to supply these goods. How does the minister know that there are only three manufacturers of these articles in Canada V I think I could put my finger on half a dozen manufacturers in Ontario alone, who would be able to turn out these goods. It may be said that these three are the largest firms, but if it is understood that the government will put this contract of $65,000 a year up to competition, and give it to the lowest tenderer, there is no doubt in the world but that others will engage in the business.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: As this was a special line I got my information from the chief architect, and the deputy minister that there were no other firms in this business in Canada ; but after the assertion of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain),
I certainly shall try an advertisement, and see whether we get any returns from it or not. I have no desire to favour one as against another.


Samuel Hughes: Hear, hear.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The minister said he thought the public interest would be protected, because the officers of the 'department would be able to judge by the prices asked, as to whether there was any attempt on the part of the manufacturers of these articles to unduly increase the price. What experience have the officers of the department had in the matter of the manufacture and procurement of articles of this class ? How do they know that there is not a combination, or whether the prices are proper prices ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They can make the comparison only from their experience and by getting prices from other countries where these goods are manufactured, and comparing them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the minister also bring down copies of any circulars or pricelists the officers have obtained from foreign countries respecting the Rvalue of these goods? I would also like to have information as to the quantity of these goods purchased, the names of the firms who Have supplied them, and the prices in each case.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will bring this return down. My hon. friend asked how the officers could make these comparisons. I did not say they had

made them, still the chief architect tells me that he is sometimes called upon by representatives of foreign firms, and he may have some of their price lists. If he has any price-lists or circulars from foreign firms, I will have them brought down.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is a fair business proposition that if these goods are manufactured in Canada, Canadian manufacturers should have the preference, but it is not a sound business proposition to say : There are only three firms manufacturing these - goods in Canada, and we will not advertise for tenders, but will send a circular to these firms, and buy from the firm putting in the lowest tender. I would ask what proportion of the vote asked is to pay accounts that are overdue ? If I understood the minister, he has not himself contracted for any of this work, but is asking for this money in order to pay accounts outstanding.
The MINISTER OF rUBLIC WORKS. I will bring down the information.


Robert Laird Borden: How much of this vote is intended to be expended for this purpose ? The sum of $63,000 should furnish a very considerable amount of space. It is not intended to provide fire-proof accommodation, I presume. I have seen these steel drawers in the safes of municipal and other large corporations where there are a great many documents to preserve, and I should think some system of that kind would be much better. With $63,000 worth of drawers you should accommodate a great many documents, and I will ask how much my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works expects to expend in that way ?
The MINISTER OF rUBLIC WORKS. The instructions to the officers are that after paying the accounts that are due and settling for the orders given, the expenditure is to be kept within the amount voted. The amount would be divided amongst the partments according to the judgment of the officers as to which is the most urgent. The system referred to by my hon. friend is a good one, but it would be very expensive. This is intended more for files; the shelves are equipped with rollers for handling heavy books. With steel instead of wood fittings they are much more satisfactory, and are, to a great extent, fire-proof. The accumulation of dust, &e., on the wooden shelves makes them very inflammable.


Richard Blain: Will the minister also bring down a statement of the full amount that has been expended for these modern office furnishings during the five or six years since their introduction.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have promised to bring down tin first memorandum immediately, because it is cue that I can have made in an hour or so. The second one I will also bring down, but it will require a little more time.
410*


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose there must be some fire-proof accommodation in some of these buildings for certain documents.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think there is any fire-proof accommodation in Ottawa outside the vaults in the Department of Finance. The intention is to ask parliament at an early date for a vote for the construction of a fire-proof building, not necessarily a large one, in which the records and archives of the country may be kept without danger of destruction by fire.


Hon. Mr. HAG G ART.: I thought that in the repairs to the west block after the fire, the building was made fire-proof.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The building is supposed to be fire-proof.
Kingston-Royal Military College drill hall,


The MINISTER OF TUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is included at the request of the Militia and Defence Department for the erection of a hall at the military college to be used as a drill hall and skating rink combined.


Edward Frederick Clarke: For the amusement of the cadets ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Both for their amusement and their instruction.


Samuel Hughes: I notice the absence of any item providing for the furnishing of a water supply for the college. The present water supply is very inadequate. As the Minister of Militia and Defence knows, a number of the students were attacked with typhoid owing to the fact that they were using water polluted by the drainage of the city of Kingston. The engineer of the Militia Department is proposing to employ a suction system of water supply. He proposes to have a station near the college buildings, to extend the in-take pipe out in the water, and to draw the water to the college by suction. For all the difference in the cost, it would pay the government to place the pumping station over on Garden island, to have the in-take pipe in the pure water beyond the island, and to force it across to the city. The only extra cost would be an additional half mile of pipe, and as the pressure on the pipes would be from within, no pollution could enter them through any leak that might occur in the pipes under the bay, whereas the suction under the system proposed by the engineer would draw any impurities into the pipes.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am very glad the hon. gentleman has brought this matter up, and I will call the attention of m.v officers to it. I had understood, however, that the water

which it is proposed to bring in had been tested, and had been found satisfactory. I may say also in this connection that I think that there was some slight doubt as to whether the fever was due to the water supply or to the milk supply, or some other cause. At any rate, it was found that the milk supply was not what it should be. To remove any possible doubt, we decided to change the water supply, and while there is no item for the purpose here, there is_ an estimate in the main estimates providing for this change. The engineers and scientific people connected with the college, as well as the officers of the department, have looked into this matter, but since my hon. friend (Mr. Hughes') has referred to it-and I know he was on the spot not very long ago as one of the visitors of the college-I shall call the attention of my deputy to it.


Samuel Hughes: The United States have recently voted $5,500,000 for additional improvements at West Point and they propose voting during the coming vear another $8,000,000 for the same purpose. Now for an institution like the Royal Military College, where the finest young engineer officers are being prepared for civil and military life in Canada, I would recommend the minister not to do any cheeseparing in providing this water supply. If he places the pump-house, as I may call it, on Garden island and has the in-take pipe on the other side of the islaud where he can get absolutely pure water, he can force it across the bay. Then, whether the pipes leak or not the water will go through pure, because the pressure will be outward. The systnn proposed by his engineers is to put a pipe out into the bay on which the military college stands, and have the in-take beyond what is called the danger limit. Then, with the pump house on the main shore, the water will be drawn in. Experience shows that these pipes are never water-tight. The movement of the waves, a touch by an occasional vessel, tlie dragging of an anchor, *will cause leakages, and then, with the suction, the foul water will be drawn into the pipe. I trust the hon. minister will bring this matter before his engineer. And ht him not be content with the report of his own officer. The engineer is not specially informed about these matters. If he will not take into consideration the elements of a proper water supply let the hon. minister consult any sanitary engineer. I am sure that such a man will not endorse for a minute the proposition of the engineer of the department, but will insist on having the other method ; and I am sure that the House and the country will support the minister in any additional expenditure that may be necessary.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Robert Laird Borden: 
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to cover the cost of an additional story over the rear one-story part of the Toronto post office, 104 feet by 72 feet; also for the furniture and fittings for it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Were tenders asked for this work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Tenders will be asked.


Edward Frederick Clarke: 
GEORGE W. GOUINLOCK.
[Stage Direction]
From this it is evident that the reason given for setting aside Mr. Coleman's tender must fall to the ground. I make bold to say that before that reason should have been accepted by the head of the department, he should have seen that closer inquiry was made as to the real cause of the delay in the construction of that exhibition building. He should have made inquiries from the architects and builders of the city of Toronto as to Mr. Coleman's standing. I think that under the circumstances a very grave injustice has been done to Mr. Coleman. I have a lot of information respecting Mr. Coleman's status, and it is of the most satisfactory character. Mr. Coleman stauds the peer of any other contractor in the city of Toronto in his line of carpentering. I will read another letter :
Hamilton, Ont., April 17, 1903. To whom it may concern :-
This it to certify that we, the undersigned, have been doing business with A. B. Coleman, general contractor, lately of the village of Burlington, during the past ten years or more. He bas carried out a large number of contracts from out of our office, and carried them out well and faithfully and fully up to the requirements of the plans and specifications and to the terms of his contracts, and to our entire satisfaction in every case. We have always found him to be a pleasant and an honest man to deal with, never found him trying to shirk any of his responsibilities with us, and we would without any hesitation upon our part give him any contracts from our office that he tendered upon, provided he was the lowest tenderer. -
We highly recommend him to any party or parties who may be Intending to build any
structure. We may further say that during these many years of business with him we have never been under the unpleasant necessity of speaking an unkind or unpleasant word to him on account of any of his contracts from our office.
This document Is signed by W. H. Stewart, architect, Hamilton, formerly of Stewart and Strickland, architects, Toronto. I have also a communication from Richard A. Waite, architect of Buffalo, N. Y. The Minister of Public Works knows the imputation and standing of Mr. Richard A. Waite as an architect. He stands very high in that profession, is one of the foremost architects in the United States, and has carried through to completion some of the finest buildings in Canada, amongst others the parliament buildings in the city of Toronto. This is what Mr. Waite saye :
To whom it may be of interest :
Within the past few years, Mr. A. B. Coleman has fully carried out several contracts both large and small under my supervision, and in the matter of time as well as competency and responsibility, highly commendable.
This is dated from his office in Buffalo on the 22nd of April, 1903. I have another one from Mr. C. J. Gibson, known, X presume, to the minister as another one of our leading architects. This is dated from bis office in Toronto on the 23rd of April, 1903.
To whom it may concern :
This is to say that Mr. A. B. Coleman, general contractor, has within the past ten years put up a great many buildings for me, some of them very large and important, and he has always carried out his contracts quickly and intelligently to my entire satisfaction, and I can confidently recommend him as competent to complete any contracts he undertakes expeditiously and conscientiously.
I will read one more communication in connection with this matter, as I do not wish to take up the time of the committee-I will read a letter from the city clerk of Toronto, Mr. W. A. Littlejohn, dated 27th of May, 1903 :
My dear Mr. Clarke,-I have your favour of the 26th instant, asking whether Mr. Coleman, the contractor for the carpenter work on the main building in the exhibition grounds, has been reported as being derelict in his work or not. Mr. Geo. W. Gouinlock is the architect for the building, and in reply to an inquiry told me over the telephone to-day that he had a line from you and would write you to-night giving the fullest information possible on the subject. I may say that there has been no formal complaint laid against Mr. Coleman. There has undoubtedly been delay in the completion of the building, but other trades seem to be responsible.
I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that I could make out a much stronger case than I have made. I present these documents to the committee and I enter an emphatic protest against the action of the department. Here is a case where public tenders are asked for and where responsible contractors reply to the advertisements calling for tenders, and
[Stage Direction]
put in their bids on work the department contemplates, giving their marked cheque as security for completion of the work. I say I emphatically protest against the course that has been pursued in this case, a course that must be inimical to the public interest, in ignoring the lowest tenderer and giving the contract to another one who is probably $400 or $500 higher. I make no complaint at all against Mr. Carlyle, for 1 am fully convinced that Mr. Carlyle has had a good deal of experience, but in fair competition his bid was some $500 higher than that of Mr. Coleman. I repeat it is most unfair and unjustifiable under these circumstances, in view of Mr. Coleman's experience and reputation, to have put his tender aside and given the contract to another contractor.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would be very sorry if any injustice has been done to the gentleman who tendered. When my hon. friend brought the matter to my attention I furnished him with a copy of the report and other evidence of what the architect actually did. I had no knowledge whatever of Mr. Coleman myself. At that particular time it was notorious that the city architect asked a committee of the council, I think, who had this work in charge, for Mr. Coleman's dismissal from the work. There was considerable difficulty between them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman is thinking of another work entirely different from this one.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Who was the engineer in charge 7


Edward Frederick Clarke: Mr. Gouinlock.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It would have been a great mistake on the part of the architect, for the sake of a few hundred dollars, not to have brought this matter to the attention of the department. There was no feeling in the matter, and any action that was taken was based upon these reports. I am sure the chief architect had no feeling at all against Mr. Coleman, and he was guided in his action by tbe conviction that Mr. Coleman was not able to carry on the work. My hon. friend perhaps has forgotten the reports that appeared in the papers at the time, of the discussion over the difference that existed between the architects in charge of that work and the contractors.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There was no architect that I know of.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend will remember that I handed' him a report at the time, showing there was great difference between the architect himself and the contractor.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There was a difference of opinion between the architect and some of
Mr. CLARKE
the contractors for other portions of the work that were required to be put into this building. Theye was no difference, so far as I remember, between the architect and Mr. Coleman. The fact that the architect has given me the letter that I read is the strongest proof that I am right in my contention. I have read for the information of the minister the statement from the city clerk of Toronto, I have also read the opinions of leading architects, men who are in the front rank of the profession, to show that the reasons urged, at least one of them, that this man was dilatory in his work, was not well founded. It may be merely a coin-, cidenee. There were three tenders presented for the work. Of course politics would not enter into consideration in 'awarding the contract. There were three tenders submitted in response to the request of the department. Mr. Coleman's was the lowest. The next was Mr. Carlyle's and the next was from Messrs. Brown & Love. Mr. Coleman's was set aside, Mr. Carlyle was given the contract for the post office at his own figures and Messrs. Brown & Love were given a contract to repair, alter and block up the custom-house without any tenders at all. It may have been only a coincidence, but still it does not look very well, to say the least of it. It is a matter, I respectfully submit to the hon. minister, that ought not to be permitted to occur again in his department, if there are going to be bona fide public tenders for public work. If people are invited to tender, if they give the security and they have a reputation for doing good work, their tender being the lowest, they ought to get the contract.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Whether it is a coincidence or not, I can only say that I have given the committee the reasons that influenced the architect in coming to the conclusion that he did arrive at. It may be, as my hon. friend says, that it was not the fault of the contractor that delay was caused at the exhibition building, but that it was due to delay on the part of some other contractor. It certainly appeared by the newspapers as if it were the fault of the contractor.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Mr. Gouinlock, the architect, pointed out that the delay was entirely due to the contractors for the structural iron and the steel work.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would be very sorry if it should appear from the evidence that he was a very capable man and that there was no reason why he should not have carried out the work satisfactorily, but it was only on account of the difficulties that were found to exist, and that were reported in the press, between this contractor and the architect that this action was taken in regard to the work on the post office.

Mi'. CLARKE. The secretary of the exhibition board, in a statement regarding the matter, says that the work was :
In no way delayed by any lack ot ability on the part ot Mr. Coleman. I believe him to be thoroughly honest and in earnest and in this case working against very great difficulties.
One of the difficulties being the failure of the Canada Foundry Company to complete their contract for the structural iron work. While having the greatest possible respect for the permanent officials of the department, I hardly think that sufficient investigation was made by these gentlemen. I think if they had gone to Mr. Gouinlock, who was the architect under whom Mr. Coleman was doing this work for the Exhibition Association, or if they had gone to the secretary and manager of the Exhibition Association, who was vitally interested in having the work done as speedily as possible, or if they had gone to the city clerk of Toronto, who is responsible for the accuracy of the minutes of council and the care and filing of any documents which are presented to council, he might have obtained reliable information. I think the chief architect was not justified in making the report that he did against Mr. Coleman, which gives Mr. Coleman such a black eye, and which resulted in having his tender set aside, without having gone to the officials who are directly responsible and who are interested in the matter. He should have applied for a statement of the facts to the secretary of the Exhibition Association, Dr. Orr, or to Mr. Littlejohn, the city clerk of Toronto. Before Mr. Coleman was turned down either one of these officials should have been consulted about it. I have presented the facts, and I will leave it to the lion.' minister to say whether he thinks Mr. Coleman was fairly dealt with.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This letter admits that there were difficulties, but the only question is as to whether there were such difficulties as Mr. Coleman could control.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Tour architect might have found out if he had gone to the proper person and inquired.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The city architect did not seem to know that, because he had taken the unusual step of taking the work out of the contractor's hands. It was on that action that this recommendation was made.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not quite gather what the reason was for not accepting the lowest tender, because it seems to me there is something more in this than has yet appeared. There is a question as to why the lowest tender should not be accepted. Was the reason given in the report of the chief architect ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: I will read the report which the minister sent to me :
Public Works. Canada,
Chief Architect's Office,
Ottawa. November 6, 1902. Sir,-Referring to the tenders for the additions and alterations to the Toronto post office.
Tenders were invited for the works referred to, by public advertisement, and three tenders were received as follows :-A. B. Coleman, $21,470; David Carlyle, $21,949, and Brown & Love, $22,238.	.	.
The principal work to be done consists in taking down the present vault, removing the greater part of the basement and the first floor rear main walls of the building, putting in foundations and the provision of iron columns and girders to carry the upper stories of the rear main wail.
As this class of work is both difficult and dangerous, proper precautions will have to be taken, otherwise serious results to the building might follow.
There being only a difference of $479 between the two lowest tenders, as above shown, I would strongly recommend the acceptance of Mr. D. Carlyle's tender. Mr. Carlyle has done considerable work for this department in the past and he has been found an efficient and reliable contractor. Further, as the work will have to be done so as to interfere as little as possible with the post office officials and the public, and part of it will, in all probability, have to be done at night ; any delay or dispute that might arise with the contractor would be a very serious matter. .
I have been informed that Mr. A. B. Coleman is the contractor for the Industrial Exhibition building at Toronto fair grounds, and that the said building was to have been completed for the fair held in August last, but at that date it was not ready for the roof owing to misunderstandings and disputes with the contractor.
The foregoing are my reasons for recommending the acceptance of Mr. Carlyle's tender.
I have the honour to be. Sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) D. EWART,
Chief Architect.
Fred. Gelinas, Esq.,
Secretary, Department of Public Works.
The only reason given was the alleged delay on the part of Mr. Coleman in completing the work at the exhibition building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There were these two reasons :	First, at
the time it was urgent that this work should go on. It was important when dealing with a large building and removing some of the stone and iron pillai-s, that the work should be placed in the hands of an experienced contractor. Secondly, it was a matter of public notoriety that Mr. Coleman was at serious variance with the architect in charge of the work at the exhibition grounds. I am sure my hon. friend would say that under these circumstances we would not be warranted, even if be were a good contractor, if he had more work than he could do, in giving him this contract. The explanation which the hon. gentleman has given to some extent puts a different face on the matter, but this serious difficulty seemed to exist between the

architect and the contractor. These two reasons, that is the reason of urgency and the difficulty which I have mentioned, no doubt influenced the chief architect in recommending the acceptance of Mr. Carlyle's tender.


Mr. BORDEN (Halfax).: I would be inclined to think that the matter had been dealt with in a very casual way, in so far as inquiry into Mr. Coleman's ability is concerned. There are two reasons assigned for the course which was adopted. One is that the highest tender was from a contractor who had already done considerable work for the department and had been proved an efficient and reliable contractor.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is no reason as against Mr. Coleman. That is no reason why he should not have got the contract.	.


Robert Laird Borden: I quite agree. I quote the language of the gentleman who makes this report.
I have been informed that Mr. A. B. Coleman is the contractor for the Industrial Exhibition building at the Toronto fair grounds, and that the said building was to be completed for the fair held in August last, but at that date it was not ready for the root owing to misunderstandings and disputes with the contractor.
That deals with the matter in a very casual way indeed. He does not tell us from whom the information came, but he simply says, that he has been informed of so and so. The fact that Mr. Coleman was contractor for a building that was not ready at the time agreed on, is no basis for a charge against Mr. Coleman, unless he were in default in some way.. There might be a dozen reasons why the building was not completed in time, none of which would in the slightest militate against the acceptance of Mr. Coleman's tender in this case.
I do not think the minister was justified in accepting so indefinite a charge against Mr. Coleman as a reason for putting aside the lowest tender. It would be the duty of Mr. Ewart or any one else, before making a report on which the lowest tender was rejected, to inform himself explicitely as to the facts. If loose methods of this kind are to be followed, you could set aside almost any tender. You could get such a report against almost any contractor who ever did any work in Canada. We discussed in the House last year a case where a contractor had hardly commenced some work in Manitoba at the time the contract should have been completed, and I do not think anyone would venture to say that that gentleman is not an efficient, and able, and capable contractor. There is only one reason given in the letter, and it is a mere hearsay reason and after all it does not charge anything. It says, that the building was not ready for the roof owing to misunderstandings and disputes with the contractor, but It does not necessarily follow that the con- | Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
tractor was not perfectly right in every position he took with regard to that matter ; it does not follow that the people with whom he was dealing were in the right and yet on a casual, indefinite, inconclusive statement of that kind, this man's tender has been set aside, and the next highest tender has been accepted. I do not know anything about Mr. Coleman ; I never met the gentleman; I never heard of him before to-night, bnt I do say that in the public interest, it is not right that the tender of Mr. Coleman or of any one else should be set aside by the minister, or by any of his officers, by reason of any such inconclusive and casual statement as is contained in this report.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will admit that the delay in carrying out the work would not of itself be a sufficient reason, but there was evidence attached to that memorandum which I think will change the opinion of that gentleman very much. They wanted this work done immediately and if my hou. friend himself knew that a man had more work than he could do, he would not likely employ him to do work which had to be done in a hurry. There was a statement originally appended to that report which showed that the architect had publicly asked the committee for the discharge of that contractor.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I suppose the minister will produce the document containing that statement ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) must have forgotten that it was pinned to tiiat report when I handed it to him.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I haqded the hon. minister back the documents which he gave me, and I was afterwards sent a copy of the letter which has been read.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It was reported in the newspapers that the architect in charge of that work was asking the committee for the dismissal of the contractor on account of these delays and disputes and misunderstandings, and for other reasons. I will give my hon. friend a copy of the document which was attached to that, and I think he will see that our action was perfectly warranted. I would be sorry indeed if any injustice had been done to Mr. Coleman.


Robert Laird Borden: I am dealing with the case presented in that report, which does not refer to any other evidence being attached to it. I can hardly understand how the architect, Mr. Gouinlock, could have been calling for the dismissal of Mr. Coleman in view of this letter which is produced by my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) :
Toronto, June 8, 1903.
Dear Sir.-Replying to your favour, I would state that Mr. A. B. Coleman, contractor for the

carpenter and joiner work on the manufacturers' building, industrial exhibition grounds, is not responsible for the delay caused in connection with the erection of this building. The delay in this work is almost entirely due to the contractors for the structural iron and steel work. Mr. Coleman's contract on this building is about $18,000 and he has given the work every attention and carried it out in a manner satisfactory to myself.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Was that the architect who had charge of the work ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: He says so.


Robert Laird Borden: 
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I suppose I have a copy in the department of the report, showing the proceedings before the committee, and if I have I will bring it down, and the hon. gentleman can judge for himself.


Robert Laird Borden: The rest of this letter of Mr. Gouinlock, refers to other work which Mr. Coleman is said to have performed in a satisfactory manner under the superintendence of Mr. Gouinlock. If Mr. Gouiulock's statement can be relied upon, it is absolute proof that Mr. Coleman was not responsible for the delay charged against him.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If the statement as reported in the papers is correct, it would put a different phase on the question.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I do not wish to take up more time now, but I present this view of the case to the minister : Mr. Coleman is a well known contractor in the city of Toronto. If reports appeared in the newspapers condemning the work done by Mr. Coleman, and if the officer of the department thought these reports were sufficiently important to justify him in making the report he did, it was only fair to Mr. Coleman that the officer of the department upon whose recommendation he was turned down should have gone, first to the architect who had charge of the building for the city and the Industrial Exhibition Association, or second, to the city clerk, or third, to the secretary and manager of the Industrial Exhibition Association. The architect of the department, so far as I know, ignored these gentlemen, who were in a better position than any one else to give him reliable information. Suppose the most inflamatory statements against Mr. Coleman had appeared in the newspapers. Even that would not have justified the architect of the department in making a report derogatory to Mr. Coleman without being advised by the gentlemen most intimately connected with the work that those reports were accurate. If the hon. gentleman will bring down the information he has, we shall learn what allegations were made against Mr. Coleman by the architect of the exhibition building ; because I shall be surprised to learn that Mr. Gouinlock asked permission to dismiss Mr. Coleman, and afterwards wrote the letter to me which I have read. Under whose supervision, may I ask, is this work being done ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Mr. Curry, I believe, is the local architect.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Had the department any communication from Mr. Curry advising that Mr. Coleman's tender be not accepted ? Was it upon his advice that Mr. Coleman was turned down ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, there was no communication from Mr. Curry.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The more this thing is investigated, the less creditable it appears. Mr. Curry was the local architect, the gentleman who looked after the construction work on government buildings in the city of Toronto for years before this contract was given to Mr. Carlyle. As a matter of fact, Mr. Curry was an alderman of the city of Toronto at the time, and I believe is yet. Was it not extraordinary that the chief architect of the Public Works Department would pass over Mr. Curry, the local architect, and take a newspaper report as his reason for asking the minister to turn down Mr. Coleman ? He did not consult Mr. Curry, a local architect of standing, under whom the work was being done, nor the secretary of the Industrial Association, nor the city clerk. Might I ask the minister, when bringing down this information, to ask the chief architect why he did not think it worth while to obtain information from Mr. Curry ?
St. Catharines drill hall (revote, $10,000), $20,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A vote was taken for this work some time ago, but a dispute arose as to the site which had been chosen being unsatisfactory ; and after some delay, the city secured another site which met with'the approval of the Department of Militia and Defence and the Department of Public Works. The contract amounts to $56,000, and the work is now going on.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the city furnishing the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, a fine site.


Robert Laird Borden: What will be the total cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total cost is estimated at $85,846.


Robert Laird Borden: How many regiments does it accommodate ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think there is only one regiment at St. Catharines.
Sault Ste. Marie-public building (revote, $10,000), $25,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the cost of this to be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It js estimated by the architect to cost $S8,-395. Tenders are now being advertised for.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has a site been secured ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. 'It was procured in January, 1902. It cost the department $8,200, and the locality contributes something. There are 84 by 100 feet at the corner of Queen and East streets ; also lots five and six on East street, 56 by 81 feet.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: For what reason are you erecting a public building of this kind at Sault Ste. Marie ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no proper accommodation there. My hon. friend knows that the place has grown very fast and that there are some very large manufacturing institutions there. Last year the postal revenues amounted to $18,551 and the customs duties to nearly half a million dollars.


William Humphrey Bennett: What purpose is the building intended to serve in addition to a post office ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Customs and Inland Revenue Departments.


William Humphrey Bennett: In what part of the town
is the site, and from whom was it purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is in the old part of the town. It was purchased from Mr. J. Dawson and Mr. W. H. Plummer. The marine office will also be in this building.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is that building of stone ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Stone and brick.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is the time for receiving tenders yet up ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No ; the tenders are due some time this month.


William Humphrey Bennett: $S5,000 seems an extraordinary expenditure for a town the size of Sault Ste. Marie, when towns of the importance of Owen Sound and Peterborough and others throughout Ontario have no public buildings, and others of equal importance have buildings costing from $15,000 to $20,000.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: 


Mr. WRIGHT.: I might say that three weeks ago a friend of mine called on me and I asked him how things were getting on at the Soo. He said that the worst fea-' ture was that they could not get their mail matter delivered. A number of families had to club together so that the ladies of these families would get the letters in turn during the day time, because when night came the post office was so crowded that they could not begin to get the mail. Such a condition of things as that should be remedied.
Woodstock-public building. $5,500.	-


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This work is under contract.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I understand that this is in the constituency of the hon. minister. What is the necessity- for erecting this building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The necessity is that Woodstock is the most important town in Ontario. The revenue is also larger than that of any other town.
I suppose that the government some years ago thought that it was proper to have a public building there. It is a very modest building, and this is to pay the balance on the contract.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I would not have mentioned this matter if the hon. minister had been as generous with his gifts to others. The only thing I regret is that he did not consider North Grey.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think that Owen Sound must rank next in importance to Woodstock.
Brantford drill hall-additions and alterations, $15,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
Robert Laird Borden: What is the size of the addition being made to this hall ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: One hundred and seventy-five feet by one|

hundred feet. The city allows us to extend the building twenty feet on the side of the park. This provides a hand-room, shooting gallery and other improvements.


Mr. INGRAM.: Is it the intention of the department to level the armoury grounds at St. Thomas ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Neither the chief architect nor myself has any recollection of that matter being brought to our attention.


Andrew B. Ingram: The armoury would toe almost useless if the grounds are not levelled.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will bring this matter to the attention of the lion. Minister of Militia and Defence and see what report he has received. We deal with matters of this kind in connection with the Department of Militia. Representations are made to them by the local officers.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am simply drawing the attention of the minister to the necessity of this work.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They appear to have taken it off our hands as satisfactory ; the St. Thomas building was completed some time ago.
St. Mary's-public building, $8,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a new work, which it is estimated will cost between $20,000 and $25,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: St. Mary's is in Perth and so is Stratford. Stratford has already a large public building. The minister had better give up that rule as an excuse.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has a site been purchased for the St. Mary's building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The population of St. Mary's is 3,400 and the total revenue derived by the postal authorities is $0,000.
I would ask the hon. minister what justification there is for this building, and what it will cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total estimate, including the site, is between $20,000 and $25,000. This is not for a post office alone, but for all the departments of the public service.


Andrew B. Ingram: Has a site yet been selected '!


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Would the minister explain why he is spending $25,000 in St. Mary's-not that I at all object to St. Mary's having this public building. St. Mary's has a revenue of only $6,000 and a population of only 3,400. Why does he give
it a public building at a cost of $25,000, when he refuses a public building to Owen Sound, with nearly 10,000 inhabitants and a revenue of about $15,0C0 ? The minister lays down a principle as justifying the building a post office in one place, and yet refuses to recognize that principle in other cases. There is something very unsatisfactory about the way the money is distributed for public buildings.


Phe MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have already said that if the hon. gentleman thinks I have left Owen Sound out of consideration he is mistaken. I do not leave unconsidered the case of Owen Sound.


Richard Blain: How much will the site cost V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have no figures on that subject. The amount I have quoted includes the cost of the site.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think it will do Owen Sound a great deal of good to have my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) merely consider it ? He considers Owen Sound, but when it comes to the other places he gives them appropriations. We have had instances of town yielding not one-fifteenth of the revenue yielded by Owen Sound and to which the publie buildings are given. We had one in which the revenue was $612 and another in which the revenue was $838. As my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) has got beyond the consideration stage with regard to these towns, why is it he cannot do the same with regard to Owen Sound ?


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: It is all the more to be noted because, as I said this afternoon, the town of Owen Sound, which is really a Conservative town, has, since 1890, given Liberal majorities because lion, gentlemen opposite have been promising them a public building and public works. Even in the late election, Owen Sound gave a Liberal majority of 33. They gave the late representative, Dr. Horsey, a Liberal majoiity. And when the Minister of Customs ran, they gave him a majority of over 100, because he promised them something in the way of a public building and public works. But now, when they see some of the smaller towns, such as St. Mary's and Woodstock, and other places, having large sums of money spent on them, while Owen Sound, the most important town in Western Ontario, receives not a single dollar, they begin to wonder what the promises of hon. gentlemen opposite are worth.
Oshawa-public building, $8,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: This is a new work. What is the building to cost when completed V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Between $20,000 and $25,000. The post revenue is $7,000, and the customs duties

nearly $28,000. Oshawa is a very prosperous town.


Richard Blain: Is there a public building in Whitby, in the same county 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think so.


Richard Blain: Whitby is the county town, a very important town, and larger than Oshawa.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am afraid my hon. friend is not always precise in his information. I think he will find that Whitby is not so large as Oshawa.


Richard Blain: It is the county town and an older place than Oshawa, and a very important town.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a very important town and a very pretty town, and some day


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood some time ago that we were going to have a new system, and that when a public building is proposed to be built we should have a proper estimate of its cost, instead of carrying on the old system of having a certain sum voted and then coming down year after year for more money to complete the work.
I hope the Minister of Public Works will inaugurate the new system and stick to it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In every one of these items I have given the committee the maximum estimated cost, and I have stated that if, on completing the plans and getting tenders, the price greatly exceeded the estimate, I should not feel justified in going on until I had further consulted parliament.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: What will the electors of South Ontario think of their representative, who lives in Port Perry, not securing a public building for Whitby, the county town 7


Mr. ROSS (South Ontario).: I think I am quite capable of looking after the interests of South Ontario. 1 am very pleased to be able to say that Oshawa should have a public building. We in South Ontario are very proud of Whitby and Oshawa, particularly proud of Oshawa as an industrial centre. The hon. minister gave the returns for Oshawa for 1902. I have the returns for the year ending the 30th of June, 1903, and they show that both the post office and customs revenues are increasing rapidly. While, for 1902 the post office revenue was about $7,100, for 1903 it was over $7,900-or nearly $8,000. And, while the revenue from customs for 1902 was $28,000, last year it amounted to about $35,000, showing a splendid growth. The town has an electric railway and its industries are going ahead very rapidly. They have an old shack of a post office there, in fact the post office is kept in a store. The Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
accommodation is not at all suitable for the town, and I have been able to convice the minister that Oshawa deserves this public building. While Whitby is the county town and while we are very proud of it, while, as the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson) says it is an old and important town, and in my opinion it should also have a public building, still, Oshawa seems to need this building at the present time. I think this vote will meet with the approval of the people of South Ontario.


Richard Blain: Has there been any correspondence between the municipality and the government with regard to the site ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Richard Blain: What proportion of this money will be paid for the site 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think I am in a position to give the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) any direct information. It is a growing town, but I should think a -site would not cost more than $4,000, or $5,000 at the outside.


Richard Blain: Perhaps the hon. member for South Ontario who is familiar with the locality would be able to give us that information. No doubt he has been consulted.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He wants to boom prices; we want to keep them down.


William Ross: The hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) asked me a question about the site. There is nothing definitely settled that I am aware of regarding the site. I think it would not be wise to say where the site is to be, because perhaps the price of the property might advance. But I am advised that the prices of property have been rapidly advancing in Oshawa during the past year or two. A good many buildings are going up, but no doubt the government will be able to get a site suitable for the purpose.


Andrew B. Ingram: How many sites ha^ the hon. gentleman in view ?
Toronto-additional postal station, $25,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where is this branch post office to be constructed 7
The MINISTER OF1 PUBLIC WORKS. This appropriation is made on the request of the Post Office Department, carrying out their policy of spreading out these branch stations. This will be station D, I think it is on Yonge street.
Deserouto public building-to pay balance due on contract. &c., $1,500.


William Humphrey Bennett: What does that building cost altogether.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC W'ORKS.
It is estimated that $25,000 will cover every-

thing, including the site, furnishings and so forth.


Mr. ALCORN.: I notice on page 7 of the supplementary estimates, sessional paper No. 5, there is an item of $4,500 for a Deseronto public building. Does one item include the other, or are they separate ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That was for the year 1901-2, and was to pay a contract then entered into. This is to complete the whole work.
Brilgeburg-public building, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to build a custom-house at the end of the International bridge. The building is estimated to cost $10,000.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: What is the population ?


The MINISTER OE PUBLIC WORKS.: Less than 2,000. But it is not built on account of local business, but at the request of the custom-house authorities there. Officers are stationed day and night at the end of thql bridge, where a good deal of travel takes place between the United States and Canada.
Hamilton public building-alterations and improvements for inland revenue purposes, $5,000.


Mr. BRUCE.: Are these improvements to be made on the new property that has been recently acquired ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Windsor public building-repairs, improvements. &c., $1,300.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is practically for new letter-boxes.


Richard Blain: Are they put in by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All by tender.
Picton public building-to complete, $1,000.


George Oscar Alcorn: Could the minister say what work has been done on this building, if any ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It was for levelling, sodding and a sidewalk. The retaining wall is to be paid out of this. This will complete the whole work.


George Oscar Alcorn: The laying of this sidewalk is a very small affair, and the levelling and sodding amount to next to nothing. The whole job could not cost $200, but I see the appropriation is $1,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The sidewalk, including the excavation and the levelling, cost $4G0.


George Oscar Alcorn: There was no excavation, only a little sand had fallen in, that is all. Was this part of the original contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, this was not done by contract, it was done by some of the local authorities, at so much per foot.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: How much per foot was paid for it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect thinks it was eighteen cents a foot.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Is not that an extraordinary price ? There is hardly a town in Canada pays more than ten or twelve cents a foot for a concrete sidewalk.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend had better look at the city of Ottawa and see what they are paying. I think he will find that they are paying over eighteen cents.


George Oscar Alcorn: Was there any tender for this work 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, not exactly. Prices were asked for. As this is only to pay a balance due, I have not got the detailed information, but I can get it for the hon. gentleman.


George Oscar Alcorn: This cannot possibly be the balance due on the work the minister mentions. I would not consider the whole work was worth more than $200.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will give my hon. friend a memorandum, and he can see what it is.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I think this is a justification for the argument which was set up here a while ago, that asking for prices from contractors is not quite satisfactory. There is nothing like public tender. Asking for prices leaves an opening for extortionate charges, and I am sure the hon. minister must admit that 18 cents a foot for this work is entirely too much. It is 50 per cent higher than iis paid in almost any town in Canada, and it must be very unsatisfactory to the people of Picton, who are having this work done. They are charged $400 odd for work which might have been done for two-thirds of the amount.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I agree with my hon. friend that up west they have been getting these sidewalks built for an average of from 12 to 14 cents a foot, but down here it seems to be more expensive. I was rather surprised to notice a few days ago that in the city of Ottawa they are paying 18 cents a foot. However, I will get my hon. friend the information he asks.


George Oscar Alcorn: I am quite sure the town has not paid nearly that price for a large amount of similar walks laid down durifig the past couple of years.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Then I must be mistaken, because I am

sure the chief architect would not, unless some misrepresentation was made, pass an account which exceeded the municipal price.
Ottawa departmental buildings-new elevator for west block, $6,000.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Who is putting that in ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This will be let by contract.
Toronto drill hall and armouries-contribution towards paving Armoury street with brick and laying a concrete sidewalk on University street, $2,645.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We intend to make a contract for these improvements.
Toronto military buildings-magazine, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These magazines are being erected at the request of the Militia Department.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is this to be constructed on the old ordinance reserve land at the west end ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would not like to speak with certainty, but I think so.
London military buildings-magazine, $3,000.


Mr. GILMOUR.: Is that to be built on Carling Heights ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I expect it will be built on Carling Heights.


James Gilmour: Will this $3,000 finish the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These sums are put in at the request of the Militia Department, which says that $3,000 will be the cost of these magazines.
Ottawa public buildings-new coal shed, $10,-
000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand that as a result of the improvements which are going on, the property which has been used for this purpose has been confiscated. It will lie necessary to build a coal shed somewhere on the canal basin for our supply of coal. It will be built ou our own land.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will it be built of cut stone ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect thinks we ought to build it of stone. Perhaps it would last longer, but I do not think it will be cut stone.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Would it not be better to put this building up in cement blocks ? It will be much cheaper than stone, and it will be quite as substantial. If 5*ou had a sample building in Ottawa, it would be an advertisement for what is becoming a very important industry in this country. They are manufacturing cement in Ottawa, and it would be well for the


Robert Franklin Sutherland: government to put up a building of cement blocks.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am very much in favour of cement work. It is getting to be a very important local industry, and I shall certainly have the chief architect ask for a report in regard to the price of cement. If it is as satisfactory and cheaper thau stone, I would be very glad to adopt it.


George Taylor: Why is it necessary to have a coal shed at all ?	1 thought the
government purchased all the coal supplies by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But we must have some place to store the coal. We use between 6,000 and 8,000 tons, and we must store it somewhere.


George Taylor: Why do you not require the contractor to deliver it as needed, and to store it until delivered ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We would pay a great deal more for it. It is brought in by water, stored in our own sheds without any cost either to the contractor or to ourselves, and delivered by the contractor from time to time as wanted.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Would it not be rather unwise for the hon. minister to advocate the use of any particular cement stone until it lias been thoroughly tested in this country ? I do not think we have had enough practical experience of it to warrant its being used even upon coal sheds.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry my hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey) lives so far back in the country that he i-s not aware of the value of cement for building purposes. In our part of the country we have been using it for years, and we find it very satisfactory.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We have two cement buildings on the Toronto exhibition grounds, and I would invite the hon. minister, if he has not seen these buildings, and if he can spare the time, to go out and see them.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I was through them, and I was very much impressed with them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: They are using cement for curbing and other purposes that it was not thought possible to use it for a few years ago. rrhere is a splendid proposition across the river in Hull, where the finest quality of cement will be turned out. I think the House will strongly support the hon. minister in putting up a building with this cement. It will be an abject lesson, and it will give a satisfactory opportunity of testing it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is better cement at Owen Sound.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You can put up the public building at Owen Sound in cement. I certain-

ly think that there should be some public building erected of cement, because this country is going to develop a great business in the production of cement, and if the government will put up one building in cement, it would be an object lessou.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am quite serious in regard to this matter.
1 will ask for a special report from the chief architect's department.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: For the information of my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Lefurgey), I would say that Owen Sound is the original home of the cement industry in Canada, and that some of the finest residences that we have in Owen Sound are built of cement blocks. They are in appearance handsomer than stone, and certainly they are substantial. They stand our climate excellently, and are very durable. I hope the hon. minister, when he is in Owen Sound, will take a look at some of these buildings, and I can assure him that there is nothing in stone that can compare with them.	[DOT]


Richard Blain: Do I understand the minister to say that the department purchases a large quantity of coal and stores it away ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: You have to buy coal in Ottawa when it can be carried by water. We receive it in the coal shed, and then the contractor delivers is as it is wanted by the different buildings. It would cost a good deal more unless we had some place where we could store a large quantity.
Ottawa post office and customs-house-improvements, $16,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is this work to be done by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This work has all been done under the supervision of the officers of the department, and by the men in the employ of the department.


Richard Blain: Do I understand the minister to say that the work has been done ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work has not been done. The estimated cost of this work is a little over $15,000. composed of a number of small items, it is done under the supervision of our own officers.
Kingston Royal Military College-stable, $5,000.


George Taylor: Will this be let by tender?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. I questioned the estimate of the Militia Department, but they told me they could get the kind of stable they wanted for this sum.
Sarnia-public building (revote), $1S,800.


Richard Blain: What is the explanation of this 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It has already been voted, but the work was not completed in time to pay it before the end of the fiscal year.


Richard Blain: Was it let by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. The contract was $62,000, and this money is to pay the contractor.
Toronto examining warehouse-addition to, $25,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What kind of an addition will be erected ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to build an addition to the warehouse 70 feet by 44, and four stories high. The estimate of the chief architect is $30,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of course, the work will be let by tender ?
Cobourg-improvements, $5,000.


George Oscar Alcorn: What Is this money for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for changes and improvements in the Cobourg post office. The hon. gentleman knows that this is a building which did not receive any attention for a long time, and it had fallen into a bad state of repair. This will cover the total cost of the work.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is it to be done by contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Kingston-barracks for Royal Canadian Field Artillery, $25,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This makes provision for the construction of new barracks at Kingston, with the understanding that the money will not be spent until after the sale of the present barracks which are reported to be unfit for occupation, owing to the impossibility of affording proper drainage. The TSte du Pont barracks are to be disposed of for the benefit of the crown.


Samuel Hughes: Is the minister going to dispose of the site of the T5te du Pont barracks ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am taking this vote on that condition.


Samuel Hughes: Where are the new barracks to be located ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think the city offers a new site, and speaking from memory, it is on the present fair grounds, which is said to be very suitable. I estimate that the present property will bring us $40,000 or $50,000, so that the whole change can be made at a cost of some $40,000 or $50,000 to the country. However, I will ask the Minister of Militia to

give further information when his estimates are under consideration.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the total cost of the building to be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Do you mean the total cost to the country ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: That is what we are interested in.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand it will be $40,000 or $50,000. The total cost of the work would be three times that, including the site and so on.


Samuel Hughes: Fifty thousand dollars would not commence to erect a barracks with the necessary buildings, and so on. It is a reflection on Canada that new barracks have not been provided in Kingston years ago. The present barracks have no sanitary arrangements ; they are old buildings some of them dating from the time of Frontenac. The minister should be very careful about these plans, and he should have them examined critically by more than one authority before adopting them. Does the hon. gentleman intend to restore old Fort Henry, so as to make it habitable, or at least presentable ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have no appropriation for that purpose at present.


Edward Frederick Clarke: This building is costing between $45,000 and $50,000 ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, it is costing between $100,000 and $150,000. I am taking this vote on the condition that the arrangement is carried out. I said that the city would present a valuable site, the old exhibition grounds, and the present barracks are to be sold, and, I understand that the difference between the value of that and the total cost will be $45,000 or $50,000. We are doing this, as hon. gentlemen know, at the request of the Militia and Defence Department.
Hawkesbury-public building, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is quite a prosperous place. The last census gives its population as over 4,000. We have not been able to lease or rent any accommodation for the post office, and the people have sent in a large petition for a building. We propose to erect one costing $6,000 or $8,000. The place is a large manufacturing place and the revenue is very considerable.


Richard Blain: What about the site.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The site will be very cheap.
Ottawa public buildings-paving front of parliament building, tar macadam, $6,900.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This, is an item in which all the members Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
of the House are very much interested. I think the matter has been brought up in the House at different times, and strong representations have been made as to the disagreeableness of the dust. We think that may be overcome by having the ground paved with asphalt or tar macadam. We have taken a vote for the cheaper pavement, tar macadam.
Wingham-public building, $8,000.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Give us some information about this building. Wingham is a very important town doing a good business.


@Deputy Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: I will take the minister's place, if any information is necessary in regard to the Wingham building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The population of Wingham is 2,392, the postal revenue $4,507 and the customs revenue $6,449.


Samuel Hughes: In what riding i$ Wingham ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In the riding of the chairman of the committee.


Peter Macdonald: I would just say to the members of the committee that Wingham is one of the best commercial centres west of the city of Toronto.


Samuel Hughes: - Chiefly Tory isn't it ?	.


Peter Macdonald: I will come to that. It is one of the best commercial distributing centres. It is served by two branches of the Grand Trunk Railway and one branch of the Canadian Pacific Railway. We have no less than six passenger trains leaving and six arriving each day, in addition io freight trains. It is also a large manufacturing centre. It has a large foundry and stove factory. It has several woodworking factories, furnishing material for house building. It is also one of the largest furniture manufacturing centres in the Dominion of Canada, employing in that industry between 300 and 400 hands. There are four furniture factories, though they are now combined under the furniture syndicate of Ontario. We have also v*ry fine buildings, including three banks. It is one of the prettiest towns that any of you ever saw. Our streets are veritable avenues, lined -with beautiful maple trees. We have no less than fourteen miles of granolithic sidewolks, for which we paid $25,000.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: How many hotels in the town ?


Peter Macdonald: I am not so much interested in the hotels as I am in the general welfare of the town.


Samuel Hughes: To whom does the hon. gentleman assign that work in his campaign ?


Peter Macdonald: I get very little support from the hotels on the Tory side. If I were asking for this on political grounds, it would he different; but the town has only one public building. Unfortunately for themselves and the welfare of the country, a majority of the people of Wing-ham vote against me ; but nevertheless, I am not going to forget them in the days of their necessity, and I am asking for a post office, not for any political or personal purpose but because the town needs a public building.


Samuel Hughes: Has the Deputy Speaker purchased a site yet ?


Peter Macdonald: I will come to the site. I have been serving my party here for the last seventeen years, and I may say that if this grant is given it will be the first public money that has ever gone into East Huron since the' first tree began to grow there.


Samuel Hughes: You had the rake-off in some other way.


Peter Macdonald: Therefore I do not ask it for political reasons ; I ask it because we need it. The present post office is situated in an inconvenient locality, and it is not adapted for post office purposes. Eor the year 1901-2 the postal revenues amounted to $4,500 ; for the year ending the 30th of June, 1903, we collected $4,806. In addition to that the customs collections for 19012 were $6,500 and for 1902-3, $9,303 ; and so far this year they amount to $1,000 a month. When a town of that size and character demands a post office, I do not think there is a single man on the opposition benches who will say nay. I leave it in their hands. With regard to the site, we have several available. I do not think the site is going to be very dear, though I would not like to mention any sum. There is a site in view which I think will be selected if the owner is willing to sell it at a reasonable price. If not, the council will probably look elsewhere. I may say that this vote is only an instalment. To put up a building that would be in keeping with the other buildings that will surround it, would involve an expenditure of from $16,000 to $20,000. The bank of Hamilton stands on one corner, a magnificent structure, and the Dominion bank has fitted up a building across the street from it in a style that is equalled by very few banks in the city of Toronto. It is a brick building, which the bank has rented for twenty-five years. These bank buildings are covered with slate. On the other corners there are splendid buildings, and we want the government to erect a building that will be in keeping with them. We take a pride in keeping our town as clean and neat as possible. and if any of you visit it, vou will 411
come away with the impression that it is one of the prettiest and neatest towns west of the city of Toronto.


Robert Lorne Richardson: We have listened with some interest to the very eloquent address of the Deputy Speaker regarding the town of Wingham. I may say that we have in the constituency of Grey three towns that can claim everything that has been said on behalf of the town of Wing-ham, and in some cases a good deal more. Something has already been said about the town of Owen Sound. I doubt if there is in the whole of Canada a town of its population, with such important manufacturing industries and with such a great commerce, that has not had one dollar of public money expended in it for public buildings. Then I come south to the town of Durham. I asked last year for a public building there. It is a thriving and prosperous town, with a population of double that of some towns that are getting handsome buildings. And a little further west of Durham we have the town of Hanover which has no less than four furniture factories and other-manufactories as well, j-et it has never had a dollar of public money expended in it for public buildings or for any other purpose. While lake ports claim a good deal for their harbours, or docks, or elevators, or dredging, inland towns like Durham and Hanover have no claims of that kind, and therefore no public money is expended in them. I would again ask that they should have some fair consideration. In some cases too much money is expended on large ornamental and expensive buildings for post office and custom-house purposes to the detriment of other smaller places. The hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson) has already spoken for Owen Sound. I doubt if there is any town of its size in the whole of Canada which has been so neglected as it has been in regard to public buildings.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: What is this building in Wingham to cost ?


The MINISTER OF TUBLIC WORKS.: Between $20,000 and $25,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: The minister will remember that he is breaking the rule he has laid down. There is already a public building in that constituency at Goderich.


Peter Macdonald: Goderich is thirty-five miles away.


William Humphrey Bennett: The minister should admit the principle that their votes are all based on political expediency and necessity.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I find that the members of the government are being provided with public buildings in their own constituencies. The Minister of Customs has a building at Brantford, the Minister of Public Works at Woodstock and the Deputy Speaker at Wingham. I do not know how they have come to side-track the Postmaster



General. I would again point out the inconsistency of erecting a public building in a place of 2,200 inhabitants, with a revenue of about $4,000 or $5,000, while no public building is erected in the county town of Grey, with a population of 10,000 and a revenue of $10,000.


Mr. MACLAREN (Perth).: I would ask the hon. minister if he has received any application for a public building from the town of Listowel ? Listowel is not very far from Wingham, and is one of the most important towns in that part of the country. If Wingham and other towns are to get favours of this kind, Listowel should have some assistance in the way of a public building ; a post office and custom-house are badly needed. It is a large shipping and manufacturing centre, and 1 would like to see something done for Listowel.


George Taylor: I think it is a wilful waste of public money to spend such a large sum as $20,000 or $25,000 in building a post office in a small town containing 2,000 or 2,500 population, which has no prospect of becoming a very large town. This is an inland town, and a post office costing $10,000 would be quite sufficient. When the Conservative government was in power I asked for a public building in my town, which is a large manufacturing town, and a post office was built costing $10,000 or $12,000 at the outside. The town gave the site and the government put up a building at that price. To spend $20,000 or $25,000 in a little village like Wingham is a wilful waste of public money. The government should establish a rule that unless there is a population of a certain number and a revenue of a certain amount the town has no claim at all. In the case of a frontier city like Toronto or Montreal we should, in the interests of the country, make our buildings respectable buildings, but to meet all the requirements of a post office building, which is all that is needed at Wingham, a building costing $8,000 or $10,000 would give all the accommodation required.
Mr. I-IUGHES (Victoria). Listowel has a revenue of $4,496.77 and Wingham a revenue of $4,507-a difference in the revenue of about nine dollars.


Peter Macdonald: I have a statement from the Post Office Department showing the statistics for Wingham for this ' year. It is as follows :
Gross revenue	$ 4,805 85
Number of money orders		2,065
Amount of money orders	$22,411 00
Number of money orders paid		1,237
Amount of	money	orders paid	$20,157	00Amount of	postal	notes	
2,116	00Customs in	1902	
6,900	00Customs in	1902-3	
9,300	00
And during the last three months, $1,000 per month.


Samuel Hughes: I might say that Listowel is a magnificent town, equal-Mr. THOMSON (Grey).
ly entitled to a post office, and I would be glad if the minister could see his way clear to gratify the request of my hon. friend from North Perth (Mr. MacLaren).


Edward Frederick Clarke: I had the pleasure of visiting Listowel the other day in company with the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. MacLaren), and I was delighted with my visit. It is a right smart town, the very centre of the great cheese industry. Experts in the cheese business come from the old country to visit its great cheese market very frequently. It is growing steadily, it has many fine business establishments, a great many beautiful private residences, and is in fact a thoroughly modern up-to-date town. Everything that has been saidifor Wingham can also be said for Listowel. If there should be a public building in Wingham, Listowel should stand a good chance also. It is a great manufacturing centre in a fine agricultural district, with large cheese, butter and other products. I strongly support the proposition of the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. MacLaren) that something should be done in this case.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I agree with the representations made as to the importance of Listowel. It is near my own home and I know it well. We are proud of Listowel. I had not thought particularly before of the matter to which my hon. friend from North Grey (Mr. Thomson) drew my attention, but I think he will find there is not very much party politics in this list of public buildings. If he will run his eye over the list, I think he will find that very little favour has been shown to the Liberal constituencies to the neglect of the others. ,


George Taylor: You are bribing the others.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, I think the applications have been considered very fairly. Going over the list, I think any impartial man would be surprised to see how many strong Conservative towns represented in this House by Conservatives are receiving post offices or other public works. I shall be glad when I have an opportunity, to remember the requirements of Listowel.


William Humphrey Bennett: Every new public work in this list is for a riding represented by a Liberal in this House.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Who is the Liberal member representing Stratford V


William Humphrey Bennett: There is no new public building there.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC W'ORKS. Yes.


William Humphrey Bennett: An armoury. I was speaking of the list of post offices.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I am going to make a strong appeal on behalf of Meaford

which has been added to the constituency of North Grey. Here is a splendid town, situated in my constituency as at present constituted which, I think, should have a special claim. It has a population of 1,916, and a postal revenue of $3,199, while the amount paid in post office orders is $26,000. It is one of the most important towns on Georgian bay and is the centre of a splendid agricultural district. Its inhabitants are a fine, industrious class. The town has a splendid harbour and I am glad to say, the government have done something to improve it of late years. I would make a special appeal to the Minister of Public Works for a building for Meaford.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think we are dealing very liberally with the harbour of Meaford and my hon. friend (Mr. Thomson, Grey) must give some of the inland people a chance. I know Meaford is a fine growing town, and after some of the inland towns have been provided for, I hope we shall be able to meet the requirements of Meaford.
Stratford-armoury, $10,000.


Richard Blain: What is to be the cost of this building V


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About tiie same as the others.
Woodstock-armoury, $10,000.


Richard Blain: What is to be the total cost of this building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: About $25,000-the same as the others, Stratford, Sherbrooke, &c.


Richard Blain: Has the site been purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, I think the county council will contribute to the site. They have communicated their intention of doing so. There is a first-class regiment there of eight companies.


Samuel Hughes: In Woodstock, or in the county ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In and around Woodstock.


Samuel Hughes: I would point out to the minister wbat was incidentally touched on before, that in centres like Stratford, and Woodstock too the militia is growing. In a short time Stratford will have a city battalion of its own, and, likely a battery of its own. Woodstock should have cavalry, being in the centre of a fine agricultural country where many people own horses. I think the minister would do well in preparing the plans, to provide, as far as possible, for housing the artillery, and for storing the saddlery in case cavalry units should be formed.
411+


Richard Blain: Do I understand tlie county council will furnish the site in Woodstock. If this is so, who furnishes it in Stratford ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: What I said was that we had had a communication from Woodstock asking with regard to the plans, showing the local interest in the militia there. The county council, irrespective of politics, are anxious to contribute something, as they do from time to time, in the payment of the militia.
Public works-chargeable to income-Manitoba-Winnipeg-district military stores building, $10,000.	'


Mr. PUTTEE.: Where is this building to be erected ? At Fort Osborne ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide for the erection of a building for military stores, district No. 10, Winnipeg, to contain (A) the mobilization stores for troops of the province of Manitoba, and (B) quarters for the foreman of stores and district offices This is to be constructed at tlie request or the Department of Militia and Defence.
Winnipeg-new immigration building and postal station, $60,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide a new immigration building for the reception of immigrants in the city of Winnipeg. It will contain also Dominion land offices and accommodation for the Post Office Department for sorting mails, i&c. The intention is to erect this building near the Canadian Pacific Railway station. This is represented by the Department of the Interior to be a matter of most urgent necessity. They are suffering now for want of accommodation in this respect.


Mr. McCREARY.: Is this building intended to take the place entirely of the present immigration hall ? Is the present immigration hall to be dispensed with ? If so, this amount is entirely inadequate.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I may say to my hon. friend that we are adopting a scheme submitted by the imperial authorities. The total cost of this building is $125,000.


William Forsythe McCreary: The present immigration hall is about 60 feet by 250 feet in length, three stories high. This $60,000 will not build a building one-half that size.


Samuel Hughes: By what department has the plan of this building been prepared ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: By the Department of the Interior.


Samuel Hughes: The present building, as any one knows who has visited Winnipeg and seen it, is unfit for the purpose to which it is assigned. The com-

partments in which the immigrants have to sleep are placed around the sides of the wall, and are much like stables. In these narrow compartments the immigrants and their children have to sleep and dress. There is no ventilation, and very little light. I trust that in the plans that are being prepared, some attention will be paid to these requirements. The present immigration hall is situated on a low flat spot, which is very muddy in wet weather. Some attention should be paid to the sanitary condition of the buildings.
/ Mr. McCREARY. The building the hon. member speaks of is merely for the temporary detention of immigrants on their way through. They remain over night and pass on the next morning. This new building should not be so close to the station, but should be one or two blocks removed.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: What the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Hughes) says is quite correct, that every provision should be made in the form of bath rooms, closets and that sort of thing, for the sanitary welfare of the immigrants.


Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).: Is it the intention to retain the old buildings and to make a separation between the immigrants, some of them being of an inferior class ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understood that in the plans submitted it was the intention to retain only the hospital building.
Winnipeg-addition to public building, $40,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If there is any place in Canada which requires increased accommodation frequently it is the post office at Winnipeg. The chief architect has reported plans for building two additional stories, a new stairway and an elevator, in the Winnipeg public building, at a probable cost of 865,000.


Arthur W. Puttee: Will you be able to start on this work at once ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The plans are being prepared, and as soon as this vote is given, instructions will be given to proceed at once.
Winnipeg military buildings-quarters for noncommissioned officers including guard-room, &c., $6,000.
Winnipeg military buildings-^magazine, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Does the Minister of Militia and Defence know where this magazine is to be situated in Winnipeg ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I cannot give the exact point, it is near the city of Winnipeg. I may say with regard to these three votes at Winnipeg that that city is becoming an important depot, a point at which military stores Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
must be placed. At present we have no suitable buildings there for that purpose, and it is absolutely necessary, as the country is filling up, and if we are to pretend to defend it, or to assist the civil power, that we must be in a position to do so. These buildings are being constructed for the purpose of bolding military stores which will be sent west. As to the magazine, I cannot give the exact location, but it is at or near the city of Winnipeg. The previous item of $6,000 is for the accommodation of noncommissioned officers who are now living, some of them in rented houses ; and as we have plenty of ground, it is thought much better to build our own houses for these men.


George Taylor: As this is a military item I want to ask the Minister of Militia a question relating to the item of $25,000 for the barracks of the Royal Canadian Field Artillery at Kingston. I want to ask if there is in that appropriation an amount included for repairing the martello towers around the harbour at Kingston? They were dismantled by storms two or three years ago, and have been allowed to fall into disrepair. At Fort Henry also the walls are tumbling down, and everything is becoming dilapidated. I think in the interest of the country these martello towers should be kept in a first-class state of repair. I drew the attention of the department to it last year, and fully expected that provision would be made this year for taking proper care of that property.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is a vote for general repairs out of which a sum might be taken for the purpose the bon. gentleman mentions. I quite agree thatthese repairs should be made, unfortunately, we have not bad money to do it with. With respect to this vote of $25,000 at Kingston, I would like to explain to the committee that the city of Kingston has offered the government a block of land, some twenty-five acres, used now for exhibition purposes. The city offers that as a free gift to the government in the -event of our wishing to construct new barracks. The present barracks are found to be unsanitary, and productive of fever. There appears to be some difficulty in disposing of the sewage of the city in such a wTay that it will not be a nuisance to these barracks. It is intended to sell the property there and realize what money we may, and to construct a new barracks probably on this land, although I may say that at this moment the question is being considered of restoring the Fort Henry property. I know that the deputy minister who has been there and has examined the property thinks that we might occupy that with great advantage. I spoke to General Lord Dundonald the other day about it, and he is very much inclined to that view, ' so that it is possible that this vote may1

not be used. I think it is only fair to the committee to make this statement as to what is going on.


George Taylor: I fully agree with the view of the hon. minister, because the government have any quantity of land east of Fort Henry, and it will be a better site than that in the city.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think so, too.


George Taylor: If you want a healthy location, you have it at Fort Henry and upon the ground east of it, along the river front.


George Oscar Alcorn: In regard to this group of items, will these buildings be erected by tender ?


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, except the repairs to the immigration building.
North-west Territories-Edmonton jail-(revote, $5,000), $35,000.


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is under contract.
Prince Albert court-house and post office, $10,000.


George Taylor: Is that the total amount ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is being erected on the recommendation of the Department of Justice, and it is a necessity there.


Samuel Hughes: As soon as the territories get provincial autonomy the new provinces will erect their own court-houses. A post office is certainly necessary there, but I think the court-house part of it might be reconsidered, as it is a provincial more than a Dominion building. It is quite evident that the hon. minister does not intend to give the territories provincial autonomy.


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not say that. So long as the territories are under the jurisdiction of the Dominion, and as the country is filling up very fast, we must of necessity meet their requirements. I have not the total cost of this building.


Samuel Hughes: It looks as if it was going to be one building-a courthouse and a post office.


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Samuel Hughes: If a province is created there this building will have to be handed over to the province as a courthouse, or else retained and used for some other purpose.


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Even if it is, at an early day more space' will be required at that place.


Samuel Hughes: Certainly.
Moose Jaw-public building, $5,000.


George Taylor: What is this building for ?


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A post office. We will have to make some provision here, as there is a rapidly increasing population at Aloose Jaw. I understand that the post office receipts increased by over a thousand dollars last season and they will have increased this season probably by a very considerable amount.


George Taylor: How expensive a building are you going to put up ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This building will cost between $15,000 and $20,000 ; but in view of the rapidly growing population, I will have to ask the House to give me sufficient latitude to enable me to reconsider the matter.


Samuel Hughes: Has Aloose Jaw no public building at all ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. The customs receipts increased by $2,000 between 1901 and 1902. When I get a full report from the officers, I propose to recommend the erection of a building suitable to that growing place.


Samuel Hughes: This is the headquarters of the Pasqua branch of the Canadian Pacific Railway, although it really branches off at the junction a few miles down. I think this is a very small building for a town like Aloose Jaw.


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will take that into consideration.
Barracks for permanent corps (Strathcona Horse), $10,000.


Samuel Hughes: Where is that to be located ?


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am not prepared to say. The Alilitia Department made representations that it is desirable to erect a barracks at some place hi the North-west Territories.


Samuel Hughes: Is it to be in Edmonton or in Strathcona 7


The AIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Some representations were made that Calgary would be a good point, but no decision has been come to in regard to that. It depends on the representations made by the military authorities.


Samuel Hughes: Is there going * to be an increase in the permanent force ?
The AIINISTER OF A1ILITIA AND DEFENCE. Yes, by about 100 men.


Samuel Hughes: Are you going to retain the police force in the same region ?
The AIINISTER OF AIILITIA AND DEi FENCE. The police force is gradu-

ally being moved to the northward, and as it is moved forward the militia will take its place in the southern portions of the territories. The police will vacate the barracks at Calgary. It is intended to establish a new militia depot at Calgary, and the police will be moved northward from Calgary to Edmonton. The police will transfer, I expect, their accommodation at Calgary to the new military depot, and it is probable that this accommodation will be quite sufficient.


Samuel Hughes: Oh, no ; not for a hundred men.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Well, for eighty men. It is sufficient at any rate for a good start. Perhaps it would not be inopportune to say now that the depot which is to he established in the west will perpetuate the name and fame of the Strathcona Horse. All the contingents which served in South Africa have their names preserved in different branches of the permanent force, except that of Lord Strathcona. It was thought fitting that the memory of this one should be perpetuated, and it is proposed to call this one the Strathcona Horse.


Samuel Hughes: I think this is very proper. There is at present a squadron' of Canadian Mounted Rifles in Winnipeg.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, they are called the Mounted Rifles.


Samuel Hughes: Officers training for certificates for the mounted corps, can obtain them either in Winnipeg or Calgary.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.
Nelson public building-to complete, $18,200.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to complete the contract. The total cost is $84,230.60.
Rossland-public building to complete, $8,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: When I was there last fall, the building was about to be occupied and appeared to be completed.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to pay the contractor for fittings for electric light, &c.


William Humphrey Bennett: What was the total cost.
' The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. $76,666.


Richard Blain: The Minister of Public Works stated last year that the work was under contract for $49,000, and now we are told that it has cost over $76,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That was the contract price for the building, but the cost of the site, fittings, furni-Sir F. W. BORDEN.
ture, letter boxes, heating, electric light, &c. had to be added to that.
Vancouver-public building, $60,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: What will the total cost of this be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It will probably cost in round figures $100,000. The city is growing very fast and' accommodation to about that extent is required. We are now paying very heavy rentals and I think it is a good business proposition to have all our offices in one building in Vancouver.


Richard Blain: Last year we had a statement that a certain building would cost $49.000, but we now find that it has cost over $80,000. Is the minister giving us the same kind of an estimate with regard to this building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I must be fair to the late Minister of Public Works, and state, that in that case he gave the contract {mice. If he were asked about the site and so cm he would have given the information. I have stated on several occasions to-day, and I repeat that my desire is to state to parliament the maximum estimated cost in each case. I have said that if after we advertised for tenders it was found that the cost would be considerably more than I stated, I would not go ou with the work before coming back to parliament.


Richard Blain: What does the minister mean by saying that the Vancouver building will cost $100,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Plans have not been prepared for that building, but I consider that a building suitable to the requirements of a growing city like Vancouver will cost about $100,000. If it shall be found to cost very much more than that, I would feel that I should come back to parliament.


Richard Blain: Does the Minister mean that $100,000 will include everything ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, no. I understood the hon. gentleman to ask the cost of the building. The total cost including the site and everything will be more than that. I will not ask parliament for another vote-for this until I give full information.


Richard Blain: That is where the misleading part of it comes in. The minister should give us a plain matter of fact statement as to what the total cost to the country will be. Every one knows that a building in this country has to be heated and equipped. If that equipment costs about as much as the building itself, the public are misled.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In almost every case, I have endeavoured to give a fair estimate of the total expenditure. This is the first instance to-day in

which we have not sufficient information to give that estimate, and I say that if it exceeds greatly the amount I have stated, I will not go on with the building until I inform parliament what the estimate is. In almost every case I mentioned to-day, I have included the total cost.
Rossland armoury, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These buildings in British Columbia will cost about $10,000 if built in wood, and $15,000 if built in brick. The Rossland building is expected to cost not more than $15,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: How many companies are in the town of Rossland ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think only two.


George Oscar Alcorn: With regard to these public buildings in British Columbia, will tenders be advertised for, and will the work be given to the lowest tenderer ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That has been done in the case of all the works under construction. The two new works will be let by tender and contract.
Yukon Territory-White Horse public buildings-post office and customs fittings, &c., $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to complete post office and provide fittings.


William Humphrey Bennett: What is the total cost of the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 have not the details here, but the deputy minister tells me from memory that its total cost is $18,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is it brick or frame 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A wooden building.
Rents-Dominion public buildings, $13,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in addition to the vote in the main estimates.


George Oscar Alcorn: Has the minister any objection to placing before the committee a statement showing the various buildings rented in Ottawa, and the rents paid 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A return giving that information was brought down this session. If the hon. gentleman does not find it In the office and will let me know, I shall be glad to bring him a duplicate.
Some resolutions reported.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS moved the adjournment of the House.


George Taylor: What will be the business to-morrow 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I expect that we shall go on with the Public
Works estimates at least part of the day, perhaps all day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.55 p.rn.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, October 0, 1903.