1903-10-17

[Stage Direction]
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved that the House again go into Committee of Supply.
["Notice of the resolution will be given, I think, not later than Monday. We will take up all the Bills that are on the programme for Monday's business."]
Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair I want to bring to the attention of the House the question of establishing a fast Atlantic service, which has been before this country for a great many years past. I think no one of us is inclined to minimize the importance to the country of this service. Its importance has been recognized by both political parties for many years, and I believe-though I have not verified the record -that the resolution upon which the Bill was founded for the establishment of this service, and which gave to it an aid of $750,000 a year, so commended itself to the judgment of this House that there was no division taken upon it. That the service at the present time is not what the requirements of the age demand must be apparent to us all. It has been stated by members of the government, in reply to questions from this side of the House, that the greater part of the Canadian mail is sent to and from New York, for the simple reason that it can accomplish the journey via New York in about two-thirds of the time which it would take if sent by way of a Canadian [DOT]port. The same is true as regards passengers, although to a lesser degree. We have land it stated by the Minister of Trade and Commerce during the present session that the average time which mails occupy in the journey from a Canadian port to a port in the United Kingdom is something like 94, 10 or 11 days. I have under my hand a record of the length of time occupied in the voyage between Halifax and the motherland some forty years ago, and I have no doubt that the House and the country have perhaps forgotten what has been pointed out many times, that the average length of the voyage from Canada to England to-day is practically what it was forty years ago. I have a comparison between the logs of the Royal Mail steamship ' Asia ' of nearly forty years ago and the length of the present day voyages. I shall take the liberty of reading to the House a statement taken from a public journal published in the city of Halifax, based upon a communication made by a gentleman who had gone to the pains of verifying the records, by examining the logs of these steamships of forty years ago. I may say that the journal to which I refer is non-partisan ; it is a mercantile journal published in the city of Halifax, and, commenting on the letter addressed to it by this gentleman, it says : After showing that the ' Unicorn,' made her first voyage from Liverpool to Halifax,-away back in 1840,-in 16 days, which was even then complained of as three or four days longer than was expected, he proceeds to show how very little better the service is to-day. The ' Mongolian,' the first weekly boat to come here this season, took somewhat over eleven days to make the voyage ! In other words she only " developed about the same rate of speed that was expected of the ' Unicorn ' in 1840.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: 
Mr.   CLARICE@: It is enough to make anybody smile.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know but that it would make even the proverbial horse smile :
That is a compliment which I cannot pay to the government of which Sir Frank Smith "was a member.
Well, I do not know whether my right hon. friend would pay that compliment to his own government at the present time or not:
I wish I could ; but the truth, you know, must be the truth upon all occasions.
Well, X would like my right hon. friend, if the session were not so late, to discuss the economy of the present government, and above all things to tell the truth about it:
Sir Frank Smith's government had undertaken to give to that service a bonus, a subsidy, of $750,000 a year. We thought it was too much. We thought we could do it for less, and ,we succeeded in making a contract with a firm for a subsidy of $500,000 saving to the country therefore the sum of $250,000.
You will notice that there was no doubt about it. It was sent to the country that the Allan contract would cost the country , 5750,000, and that the government, within a few months after coming to office, had accomplished the fast Atlantic service, and saved $250,000 a year. And this was reported all over the country. How much will that amount to in twenty years ? $5,000,000. It was heralded throughout the country as an absolute saving of $5,000,000 :
We contracted with the firm of Petersen, Tate & Co., a Newcastle firm, a firm composed as we ascertained, of men of the highest honour, of the highest integrity, and the highest competency in their profession. Mr. Petersen and Mr. Tate have had a good many obstacles to overcome. as is always the case with men who launch a new idea into the world. Their idea was a new one. and therefore it met with objections and with discouragement from more than one class of people ; and not later than a few weeks ago, or a few days ago only, It was stated that the scheme of Mr. Petersen had fallen down, that it must be considered as absolutely a thing of the past. Mr. Petersen and Mr. Tate were at work. They- work as men always work when they want to succeed. They said nothing ; they answered no accusations ; but to-day I have a telegram from my friend and colleague, Mr. Fielding, the Minister of Finance, to this effect : ' Petersen has made today the deposit required by the contract.' (Loud cheering and great enthusiasm) [DOT]
And only a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, we bad the pleasure in this House of returning to Mr. Petersen his deposit with interest at three per cent. But I did not observe on the part of my hon. friend's sitting to the right of the Speaker the same loud cheering and great enthusiasm as were manifested on this occasion at Toronto. Then he continued as follows :
It is with joy indeed that I welcome this explosion of satisfaction at the announcement that this scheme had not failed, but that it is to be carried through.


Robert Laird Borden: We did not have any explosion of satisfaction from hon. gentlemen opposite the other day when the deposit was returned. Yet the one event was as important as the other. If the deposit of Messrs. Tate, Petersen & Company was worthy of an explosion by the great Liberal party of this country, surely we might have expected from these hon. gentlemen a similar explosion when that deposit with 3 per cent interest was returned. But no doubt the explosion in the latter event was at the other end of the line. I have no doubt that when the news of the return of the deposit reached Messrs. Tate, Petersen & Company on the other side of the Atlantic, there was the same loud cheering, the same great enthusiasm, the same explosion from them, as heralded the announcement of this deposit which was so happily timed as to reach my right hon. friend when he was on the public platform. He thus continued to dilate on the news he had received from the Finance Minister :
I know that in some quarters this idea of having this passenger traffic amongst us was not popular ; but, Sir, let me say to you that if there is a patriotic idea in the land it is the idea that we should not only carry the freight, but carry the passengers between America and Europe. (Hear, hear, and applause.) We can do It, we ought to do it, and now it is no longer in doubt.
Let me pause here for a moment to say to ray right hon. friend that while he refers to certain quarters in 1897, where this idea of a fast Atlantic service was not popular, he does not seem to have to go very far at present to find quarters in which that idea is equally unwelcome, because during the present session we have had expressions of opinion, which indicate that this project of a fast Atlantic service is not very popular in the mind of an hon. gentleman who has the honour and pleasure of a seat at the right of my right hon. friend. That hon. gentleman has told us, in so many words, that it was bather a good thing this contract and scheme, which was heralded with that explosion of satisfaction in 1S97, amounted after all to nothing, and that we have had during the past seven years practically a slower service between Canada and the mother country than that which this country enjoyed in the years previous to confederation. My right hon. friend continuing said :
This line of steamers shall be completed probably within two years, certainly within thr?e years.
There is no uncertain note in that announcement.
And when we have this class of steamers afloat on the ocean I have no hesitation, such is my confidence in the scheme-and it is a confidence which must be borne by every man who has looked into the subject-that we shall have the great bulk not only of Canadian traffic, but of American traffic as well.

My right hon. friend was not modest in liis expectations. We were to have the line in operation within two, or at the outside three years, and it was to carry, not only Canadian traffic, but a very large portion of American traffic as well. Well, six years have elapsed and we still have precisely the same condition of affairs as has existed for so many years. We still have practically all our mails and many of our passengers carried, not by Canadian routes, not via Canadian harbours on the St. Lawrence and Atlantic coasts, but by American lines from American seaports.
Sir, remember this, what I say is no idle boasting. Remember that the St. Lawrence route is the shortest of all routes. Now, as you know, all men have an aversion to the sea -I know I have-(laughter)-and my experience is not exceptional in this respect ; all men have a terror of the sea ; but when tourists know and are aware that upon the Canadian line, with a class of steamers having a speed of twenty knots an hour, equal in comfort to the best afloat on the ocean, there will be no more than four days between land and land-(applause)-the Canadian line will be patronized as no other. (Great cheering.) What will be the ease when this line is in operation ?
My right hon. friend could afford to indulge In prophecy with regard to the results of the scheme, because no one can tell us to the present what might happen, and the prophecy is still a very safe one, under present conditions.
The case will be this : that a passenger taking the steamer at Moville, say, if Moville is to be the Irish port, within less than four days will be in the strait of Belle Isle, and then within less than one day, or twenty-four hours, will be in the 'harbour of Quebec, and one day's sailing on the beautiful St. Lawrence with its magic scenery and free from all discomforts of the sea. (Applause.) When we have this line with us we shall not only have the entire Canadian traffic, but we must as a necessity have the larger proportions of the American traffic. [DOT] This that I say may perhaps seem presumptuous. It is not. At all events, if it is, I have such an unbounded faith in my country that I believe every word that I say now and I am sure it will come out to be true also.
There is not one of us who will not concur in the closing remark of my right hon. friend, if he applies it to the fast Atlantic service as a whole. But what a travesty on the actual facts is the whole speech of my right hon. friend. We were told over and over again that this deposit and bank guarantee furnished the most absolute security that the fast line would be completed. Years ago we gave up the bank guarantee, and we lately returned the deposit with interest, and we are not one whit nearer the establishment of a fast Atlantic service than we were seven years ago ; and that in spite of the fact that we had from a Canadian firm, one of the foremost shipping firms of this country, a contract which, if this government had seen fit to carry it out, would, in all
human probability, have resulted in giving us a fast Atlantic service of 21 knots an hour, and we would have been enjoying that service during the last three or four years at least. We are told, from time to time, that we had better wait, that we had better put up with the service we have in order to get a really good service in the future. Why, we have been waiting for thirty years and have practically the same service as we had forty years ago. We had just as good a service from Canada to the mother country in 1866 as we have now. How much longer are we to wait ? Must we wait some thirty-four or thirty-five years longer, and then, at the end of that period, say to ourselves, it was not a bad thing after all that we did not make haste about the fast service, because when we do get one in the end it may be a better one than we could have expected had a contract been entered into some years ago.
Let me point out to my right hon. friend that, even, if we had established an eighteen knot service twelve or fifteen years ago, it would have been better for us than to have done what we have done. And let me point out that if we had established that service fifteen or twenty years ago we could now improve it to a twenty-one or twenty-two knot service. And let us not say that a nine, ten, eleven or twelve knot service is good enough for us now and for many years to come, because it may result in giving us a better service when we eventually enter into a contract. For my part, I am not in sympathy with those who think we should establish a seventeen or eighteen knot service. I do not believe, that having been handicapped with a nine, ten, eleven or twelve knot service for so many years, there is any reason why we should now establish a second-class service.


Mr. GOTJRLEY.: Or third-class.


Robert Laird Borden: Or, as my hon. friend from Colchester (Mr. Gourley) would call it, and very likely with correctness, a third-class service. A gentleman who has had great experience in transportation' matters in this country said to me, about a year and a half ago, that the establishment of a seventeen or eighteen knot service between Canada and the mother country under the moderate subsidy which we should have to give for that service, might, and in his opinion would, result in: this-in placing on the route between Canada and the mother country boats which are now regarded as second or third-class boats on the New York route, and the subsidy we would give for the purpose would be, in reality, a subsidy for supplying new boats on the route between New York and the mother country. Now, it is far better for us to give $750,000 or $800,000 a year, or even more, and have a fast service up to the best requirements of the time, than to give $400,000 or $500,000 a

year and have only a second or third-class service, and have the subsidy which we would give apply in effect to the support of a first-class line of boats between New York and the mother country. We do not want to bring about that result. And I was glad that, when I brought this particular point to the attention of my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (lit. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) he agreed at once in the view 1 had expressed, and said that the government were not unmindful that that result might be produced by granting a subsidy for a line of boats of the speed I have mentioned.
Now, as my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) has thrown a good deal of cold water on this proposal during the present session, and as an important journal, a journal which is supposed to be sometimes inspired, has used words of the very same character, we cannot but doubt the enthusiasm of the government or the establishment of a fast Atlantic service. An important journal supporting the government has recently said that it has :
The best authority for stating that there is no movement in existence at the present time of which the government has cognizance aiming at the establishment of a fast Atlantic mail and steamship service between Great Britain and Canada.


The PRIME MINISTER.: What paper is that ?
Mr: BORDEN (Halifax). The Ottawa ' Free Press ' of a recent date. I have not the exact date, but I will procure it for my right hon. friend if he desires it. The language is very significant. The journal says it has ' the best authority.' Well, the best authority would be the authority of the government. And, if this newspaper is to be believed we must arrive at the conclusion that some member of the government has seen fit to make a statement of that kind to this important journal for the purpose of making that announcement to the public. The article goes on in very circumstantial fashion as follows :
Lord Strathcona has ao special instructions to approach the imperial government on the question. for the reason that the Canadian administration has no proposition before it which would justify any action of that hind.
The statement is, in terms, very authoritative, and, in' the concluding portion of it, somewhat circumstantial. Therefore, I think we should have from my right hon. friend a declaration to-day as to whether or not the attitude of the government towards this most important project is that which lias been disclosed in tlie remarks of my hon. friend tlie Postmaster General during the present session.
On tlie 9th of March last, the government issued an invitation for tenders for a fast Atlantic steamship service, or, rather, for a fast and a slow Atlantic steamship service.


Robert Laird Borden: you attempt to negotiate for three, four or five years, as a mere makeshift in the meantime, your negotiations will amount to nothing. Why should any company, for a period of three years or a period of four years, undertake to build boats or to take boats off an established line ? But if you make up your minds in the first place as to what it will pay this country to give annually for a fast Atlantic service, and if you induce the co-operation of the imperial government so that they will give a subsidy in the same proportion as they offered to give in 1896-and we have no information that their offer in that regard is withdrawn -then, by placing your project before the established lines of this country and of the mother country, I believe that you can, within a measurable period, establish that fast Atlantic service for which the very great majority of the people of this country have been so anxious during many years past I regret that the record of the government with regard to this matter has shown so remarkable a degree of inefficiency. They had before them in 1896 a contract that would have resulted in the establishment of a fast Atlantic service; they declined to carry that contract out; they declined to submit it to His Excellency for approval; they took up the contract with Petersen, Tate & Oo., and, in the face of strong criticism from this side of the House, in the face of the opinions largely quoted from this side of the House that that service never would be a success, they persisted in assuring parliament and the people of this country that there was absolutely no doubt on that subject. Over and over again I have heard taunts from the gentlemen who occupy the treasury benches and the gentlemen on the other side of the House to the effect that the Conservatives proposed to spend $750,000 a year for this purpose and that this government had accomplished the purpose equally well at a net saving to the country of $250,000 a year. Well, the country has saved nothing ; it has lost its fast Atlantic service during these 1 years, and the country, if it proposes, as I believe it is in favour of proposing, to estab- ; lish this service at the present time, will >
find it necessary to pay a very much larger 1 sum per annum than the sum for which this -service could have been established in 1896. ] 111 view of this, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move : 1
That ail the words after the word ' that ' In ! the proposed motion be left out and the follow- ' ing substituted therefor:-	<
This House affirms its heiief that great ad- 1 vantages would result to Canada as well as to 1 the mother country from the establishment of a i fast steamship service be ween the two countries i and expresses its regret that no effective steps 2 have been been taken for that purpose by the i present administration.	.
The PRIME MINISTER	(Rt.	Hon.	Sir	eWilfrid Laurier). Mr. Speaker,	all	through	t
this session there has been from the other t Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
side of the House a running fire of criticism Against what it has pleased hon. gentlemen opposite to call the lavish expenditure of the government. These criticisms have also found a place in their press as well, and it was only last week that my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) when honoured and banquetted by his friends made the burden of the remarks which he addressed to the faithful on that occasion, the extravagance of the government. But, it is also to be noticed, that, concurrent with this criticism, every time that supplies are asked from parliament there is a remark made by hon. gentlemen opposite to the effect that we are not spending enough and we have always a demand for some more expenditure here, there, or elsewhere. You cannot take up the debates that have taken place in this House, especially for the last fortnight, from which you cannot quote speeches made by hon. gentlemen opposite to the effect that we should spend more than we are spending upon some matter as to which these hon. gentlemen say we are not asking enough money from parliament. Again and again we have been asked to make larger appropriations and upon this occasion, as being an opposite commentary upon the speech delivered a few days ago by my hon. friend to his own party, we have a request made to spend no less a sum than a million and a half of dollars per annum for a fast Atlantic service. I do not propose to discuss the question upon this point. I simply leave it to hon. gentlemen opposite to reconcile these divergent lines of criticism and I leave it to the country to judge of the consistency of such criticism. I do not propose, as I say, to discuss the matter upon this point and for my part, though we have asked for pretty large appropriations from parliament this session, I still believe that wise expenditure is the best economy. But, to come to the subject^ which has been introduced by my hon. friend, the burden of his accusation and charge against the government is that Ire regrets that the policy followed by the government has not been efficient to procure for the country a fast Atlantic service. I have to admit that in this year, 1903, we have not yet in operation a fast Atlantic service such as has been contemplated and hoped for by us for a great many years past. I have to admit that this government have not been successful. I have to admit that in this matter our record does not compare any more favourably than the records of our predecessors, and I have this to say as an excuse not only for ourselves but for lion, gentlemen opposite as well that if we have not obtained a fast Atlantic service such as every one would like to have It is not on account of any deficiency on our part hut it is simply on account of the inherent difficulties of the task. This government are not the first that have applied their energies to the task

of obtaining sucb a fast Atlantic service as we should have between Canada and Great Britain. My hon. friend referred-I do not know if I understood him correctly- to the efforts which were made in 1896 by the efforts of Sir Charles Tupper, or to speak more correctly by the efforts of Sir Mackenzie Bowell, to obtain a fast Atlantic service and he rather created the impression upon my mind at all events, or it appeared as if he wanted to convey the impression, that this was the first effort that had been made in that direction. But, that was not the first effort that had been made by the Conservative government. That was only tiie third effort that had been made in that direction because the efforts in that direction go as far back as 1889. It was in 1888 that the idea of obtaining a fast Atlantic service, equal, in the language of the gentleman who was the first to give expression to the idea publicly. Mr. Foster, to the fastest and best steamships on the Atlantic ocean was mooted in Canada. In pursuance of that idea which was then expressed, a statute was passed by this House in the following words :
The Governor in Council may enter into a contract for a term not exceeding tin years with any individual or company, for the performance of a fast weekly steamship service between Canada and the United Kingdom, making connection with a French port, on such terms and conditions as to the carriage of mails and etherise as the Governor in Council deems expedient, for a subsidy not exceeding the sum of five hundred thousand dollars a year.
This is the first offer that was, made and it goes back to the year 1889. The government were authorized to negotiate for the establishment of a fast Atlantic service between Canada and the United Kingdom on the condition that a call was made at a French port and the sum which the government were authorized to give for the service was $500,000.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What chapter is that ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Chapter 2 of the statutes of 1889. This provision remained on the statute-book for five years, hut nobody came forward to take advantage of the offer and it was thought advisable to make an amendment to the proposition. It was supposed that the sum which had been placed on the statute-book was insufficient and that it should be increased. It was increased accordingly. By the statute of 1894, chapter 8. this amendment was enacted :
1. Section 3 of chapter 2 of the statutes of 1889, intituled: An Act relating to Ocean Steamship Subsidies, is hereby repealed, and the following substituted therefor:-
3. The Governor in Council may enter into a contract for a term not exceeding ten years with any individual or company, for the performance of a fast weekly steamship service between Canada and the United Kingdom, making connection with a French port, on such terms and conditions
as to the carriage of mails and otherwise as the Governor in Council deems expedient, for a subsidy not exceeding the sum of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.
By this the subsidy was increased by no less a sum than a quarter of a million dollars. Two years elapsed hut nobody came forward to take advantage of this additional subsidy and in 1896 tbe law was again amended and new propositions were made. In the session of 1895, the following law was enacted as chapter 3 of the statutes of that year :
1. The section substituted by chapter 8 of the statutes of 1894. for section 3 of chapter 2 of the statutes of 1889 intituled: An Act relating to Ocean Steamship Subsidies, Is hereby repealed and the following sections substituted therefor:-[DOT]
3. The Governor in Council may enter into a contract for a term not exceeding ten years with any individual or company, for the performance of a fast weekly steamship service between Canada and the United Kingdom, on such terms and conditions as to the carriage of mails and otherwise as the Governor in Council deems expedient, for a subsidy not exceeding the sum of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year: Provided that such contract shall not be binding upon Canada until it has been laid before the House of Commons and approved by a resolution of the said House.
The alteration which was made here was not in the amount. The amount was left the same as it was in the statutes of 1894 at $750,000 a year for the establishment of a fast Atlantic steamship service, but the change which was made was the leaving aside of the obligation on the part of such company as undertook the service to call at a port of France. But for all other purposes, the conditions remained as they were. Then invitations were issued for tenders. There had been an election in the interval, and the Conservative party had been defeated, and the present government installed in office. We found that in answer to the call for tenders, no tenders had been received. I emphasize the words ' no tenders had been received.' There was simply an offer made by the Messrs. Allan to undertake the service. It was an offer, not a tender ; and that offer was not in the terms of the specifications of the tender at all. The offer was from the Messrs. Allan to take the service upon conditions not mentioned in the invitation issued for tenders, but upon conditions made by themselves. One of the conditions was that they would not he bound to enter into the contract until four months had elapsed after they had signed the contract. so as to enable them to get out of it or into it just as they pleased. That would have been a minor matter, but generally speaking the conditions were very different from those stipulated, and the government did not feel justified in giving for that office such a large sum of money as was contemplated by the statute.


Robert Laird Borden: Was there any condition which they made which was not

1417(3
substantially contained in the Petersen-Tate
contract ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I am coming to that. In the following year we issued advertisements for tenders and we received a tender from Messrs. Petersen, Tate & Company. I may say at once to my hon. friend that the conditions offered by Peterson, Tate & Company were not very materially different from the conditions which had been gffered by the Messrs. Allan, but there was all the difference in the world in the price asked for the service. The Messrs. Allan were demanding $750,000, whereas Petersen, Tate & Company were asking only $500,000. That was a consideration, and a valuable one which could not fail to make an impression on parliament and the government. I am bound to say, that in the light of events which have taken place since, Messrs. Petersen & Tate were over-sanguipe in offering to take the contract for $500,000. It has turned out that they were sadly off in their calculation. They were young, energetic, enterprising, and it is due to them to say that they were very near succeeding, relying on their activity and their enterprise. There is reason to believe that they would have brought the contract to a successful issue, but it is a matter of public notoriety that they met with tremendous opposition in some quarters, and they had to abandon the project. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) refers to a telegram sent to me by my friend (Mr. Fielding) to Toronto in the fall of 1897, in which he announced that Messrs. Petersen & Tate had deposited the sum of $50,000 as an earnest of their intention to perform their obligations. I announced that, and I1 was glad to announce it, to the audience in Toronto. The announcement perhaps was received with great joy, and there was reason that it should be so received. I cannot see the point in the joke of my hon. friend that the announcement that their deposit had been returned, should be received with vociferous applause on the other side of the Atlantic. On the contrary, if there would be any feeling about it at all, it should be a feeling of regret, and I would have expected that my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) instead of indulging in harsh criticism, should have considered it a matter of deep regret that the Messrs. Petersen & Tate had not been able to implement their contract. It was in 1899. I think, that Messrs. Petersen & Tate abandoned their contract. My hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) says, that from that time until 1903 the government has done nothing, has called for no tenders, has entered into no negotiations to carry out the enterprise which had been set forth in a solemn compact before parliament and the country. My hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) is mistaken, as I will show. I admit that from 1899 to 1902, the government of Canada did nothing to try to create this Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
fast Atlantic service. But there was a very obvious reason for that. ' The paramount reason was, because of the existence of the Boer war for three years, 1900, 1901 and 1902. I would not say that that war demoralized the shipping world, but I do say that it so absorbed all the marine and naval resources of the British empire, that every one must acknowledge it would be absolutely impossible to launch the scheme then with any chance of success. It would have been folly to attempt to do anything towards the establishment of a fast Atlantic service under such circumstances. The Boer war came to an end in the middle of the summer of 1902. It so happened that in the summer of 1902, four of the Canadian ministers were in England for the coronation ceremony, and the ministers who were in England had several negotiations with different parties in order to secure this fast Atlantic service. We received a tender from the Canadian Pacific Railway, we received a tender, if I remember right, from the Messrs. Allan, from Sir Christopher Furness, and from Sir Alfred Jones. All of these tenders were of such an excessive character as regards the amount asked, that it was not deemed possible to ask parliament for their confirmation.


Robert Laird Borden: May I ask my right hon. friend if these tenders were laid before parliament ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I cannot say at this moment. I am sorry my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce is not here to answer that, but if they have not been laid before parliament there is not the slightest objection to bringing them down, and I shall be glad to do so immediately, if my hon. friend desires. But I may say that if my hon. friend had seen these tenders he would say that the amount which was asked for such a service was-I will not say excessive, but it was very large ; so large that we thought it advisable not to accept any of them, until we had made another effort to get another service. Therefore, in the month of March last, we again issued invitations to the public for tenders. On account of the excessive subsidy which had been previously asked, we thought that we would vary the character of the service, and so we asked for two boats of a very extreme speed, and for two boats of a moderate speed. We asked tenders for two boats of 21 knots and for two boats of 16 knots. We received two tenders-one of which may be dismissed at once because it did not comply with the terms-the other tender came from the Messrs. Allan. For such a service as that, limited as it was to two fast boats and to two boats of moderate speed, the Messrs. Allan asked no less a sum that $1,500,000. We did not think that we would ask parliament to ratify a contract for such an excessive amount. When I use the word ' excessive,' I do not mean

to say that it is excessive as to the value of the service which was to be given, but it certainly is excessive in comparison with the appropriation for the purpose which was made by the Canadian parliament. The appropriation which was made by the Canadian parliament was for the sum of $750,000. The amount voted never went beyond that sum ; and we cannot have such a service as is contemplated by the motion of my hon. friend even for twice that amount. We can have only a service which is partly fast and partly not so fast-two boats of 21 knots and two boats of 16 knots. To obtain a service of four boats of 21 knots, I do not know how large a subsidy we would have to ask for ; but 1 think it would be very much larger than the sum asked for by the Messrs. Allan for the mixed service. Under these circumstances, I think nobody will blame us if we do not ask parliament for such an appropriation as would be necessary to carry out the tender of the Messrs. Allan.
Now, X have only this to say to my hon. friend. In my speech in Toronto I said that the service we contemplated would not be equally popular in all parts of the country. When I said that, I only uttered a truism. There are certain sections of Canada where the advantage of the service has not impressed itself so deeply as in other parts. But my position on this subject is what it has always been. I think a fast Atlantic service would be of extreme advantage to Canada ; it would advertise the country as few other things would ; it would develop 'our trade and procure us a trade which we have not at present, but which we ought to have. I do not know how popular such a service would be in winter time. It might or might not be popular on account of the speedy crossing of the Atlantic. As a rule, all men dread the sea ; as a rule, all men have good reason to dread the sea. From the moment a man puts his foot on board the ship, he wishes to reach the other side. The passage could be accomplished iu five days instead of six of in four days instead of five, the line that would accomplish such a miracle as that would be the most popular of all lines. In summer time I have no doubt the route by the St. Lawrence would be most popular, and would be largely taken advantage of by people wishing to cross the Atlantic. Starting from Montreal or Quebec, you would have twenty-four hours or thirty-six hours on the waters of the St. Lawrence, which certainly would be a pleasure, and a good preparation for the rougher passage of the Atlantic. There is reason to believe that such a line would be patronized not only by Canadians, but by Americans, especially those from the western states. But the difficulty is to convince naval men of the profitableness of such a project. They are supposed to know the conditions of trade far better than any of us ; but even in the face of this project they have hesitated to invest their 444
money without receiving a very large guarantee from the Canadian government.
My hon. friend has also referred to an article which has appeared in a newspaper of this city which is friendly to the government, but which is in no sense an organ of the government, because the government has no organ. The government speaks for itself, and that is the only way in which a government should be represented. There are, however, papers which are friendly to the government, and the one my hon. friend referred to is one of these. But there is no reason for saying that no project for the creation of a fast Atlantic service is in existence. On the contrary, this is a subject which is always present to the minds of the government, and is always engaging their attention. At this very moment they are negotiating with some companies which have tendered for the service ; but we have nothing tangible to present to parliament at this moment. But the project has not been abandoned, and in my opinion it should not be abandoned until it is carried to a successful conclusion. Though our efforts in the past have not been successful, there is reason to hope that at an early day we shall have a tender which we may be able to place before parliament.
There is one reason why naval men hesitate to engage in this enterprise except at the cost of a very heavy expenditure by the national government :	That is, as my
hon. friend knows, coming as he does from a maritime city, that there is perhaps no kind of industry which is to-day subject to greater changes than naval architecture. Almost every year some new methods are invented, some new designs brought forward, which tend to change naval architecture to such an extent that the ship of today may be obsolete five years hence, Even at this moment, the new ships for crossing the Atlantic are being built on what is known as the turbine system, a system from which great expectations are entertained. If this experiment proves successful, we may have a new development in naval architecture which may result in all the ships of to-day being discarded two or three years hence. For this reason the very naval men who might be expected to go into this enterprise have hesitated to do so except at a cost which I think the Dom- . inion parliament would sustain the government in not incurring. When no less a sum than $1,500,000 is required to obtain a contract it is no wonder that the govern-men should have hesitated, and should have asked for more information before coming to a conclusion. I think that is a sufficient reason, in the eyes of all men who believe in economy not only in words but in deeds, for holding the government free from the censure which my hon. friend endeavoured to cast upon it.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: The right hon. gentleman has, I presume, made

tlie best defence tbe government can offer for their conduct during the last nine years in connection with this feature of their policy ; and it would be quite sufficient, I think, to allow it to go to the country alongside of the speech made by the hon. leader of the opposition, and leave the country to judge of the force of that defence. But I think it is important to draw attention to some of the observations made by the right hon. gentleman. He says we have reason to hope that we may have a tender at an early day. Well, all I can say, in reply, is that the country, like the government, have been living in hope, but they have been obliged to fall back in despair. Their first hope was that they could obtain the same service for the country as was proposed by the previous government, and that they could save to the country $250,000 a year. They were sure of that, if it were only taken hold of by competent men. They said that competent men had made an offer to make a contract to that effect; and with great exaltations and blowing of trumpets, it was said :	See what business men can
do compared with unbusiness men ; we have secured for the country a service which was declared to be so desirable, so important and so advantageous, for $250,000 a year less than our predecessors contemplated. On the strength of that we have been living in hope ever since. Speaking of tenders recently received, the right hon. gentleman said the lowest tender of Messrs. Allan & Company was $750,000 above their tender of 1896. Does not that of itself show the folly of the government in not having accepted the tender made in 1896, and in declaring that it was entirely too high ? Experience has proved that they were not men of foresight, wisdom or good judgment, or they would have accepted the offer of the Messrs. Allan, and we would have had the advantage of the fast service we all desire, and besides have had that advantage at $750,000 per year less than we can get the same service for to-day.


Mr. ROCHE (Halifax).: What was the offer of Messrs. Allan & Company in 1896 ? What did they offer and stipulate to do ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They stipulated to give a fast Atlantic service, on practically the same lines as Messrs. Tate, Petersen & Company, for $750,000 per year paid by the Canadian government and a' subsidy by the imperial government as well.


William Roche: They could not know that Tate, Petersen & Company were going to offer a few years later. Tell us what the Allan Company offered to do.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. member know the offer made by Tate, Petersen &-Company ? The offer made by the* Allan Company was practically on the same lines. They made an offer in some respects


Thomas Simpson Sproule: slightly differing from the request made by the government for the service. It differed with regard to stormy weather and matters of that kind. They were not to be compelled to keep up the speed in case of snow storms or ice blockades, &c., and under certain conditions, they were not to be compelled to make the service as fast as the maximum rate. Practically their offer was on the same lines as were proposed by the government to Tate, Petersen & Company when the contract with that firm was entered into. But the government, for reasons best known to themselves, refused to recommend to the Governor General the carrying out of that contract, and defended their conduct by telling the Canadian people that they could get an equally good service for very much less money. Then they announced that they had secured an equally good service forf $250,000 per year less money, and boasted that in this they were carrying out their principles of economy and showing their great ability as business men. They said that they had not only received an offer but had actually entered into a contract, because the forfeit which was to be put up as guaranty that the company would keep its engagements was put up. Experience has proved, however, that in their conduct of this business, they were anything but good business men.
In reply to the charge made by the leader of the opposition, that since 1898 no effort has been made by the government to obtain a fast service, the right hon. gentleman said that the government had received a tender from the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1902. Why was not that information given to parliament ? Why was parliament left in the dark. Why was not this tender put upon the Table 7 We know that that attempt failed because 'if it had not, we would have had its success heralded by a great flourish of trumpets. The right hon. gentleman has told us that the South African war prevented anything being done because the steamships were all busy; but had the government ratified the contract which was made in 1896, what an advantage would not that have been to Canada during the South African war? These hon. gentlemen, however, refused to ratify that contract, and the result is that Canada has suffered very much and we have no fast service to-day.
The right hon. gentleman said that the Allan Company did not tender but made an offer. That seems to be a distinction without a difference. They offered to do the work for a certain sum. Is that not a tender ? A tender is only an offer. They offered, upon certain conditions, to do the work, and had their conditions been accepted-and they were just as favourable as those entered into with Tate, Petersen & Company, we have reason to believe that Canada would have enjoyed the advantage of a fast Atlantic service during the last

seven years at least. But the right hon. gentleman says :	Oh, we are not the only
parties who have failed; the Conservative party twice in six years endeavoured to secure that service. Yes, they did, and the first time they endeavoured to secure it for $500,000 per year. In this endeavour they failed, but when they tried to get it for $750,000 per year, they succeeded. Is my hon. friend like the Bourbons, who forget nothing and learn nothing. What is the best school in the world ? It is that of experience. But the right hon. gentleman evidently is not disposed to profit by the lessons, otherwise he would have known that when his predecessors failed to get that service for $500,000 per year, he was not likely to get it for the same price. But his predecessors were wiser than he in this respect, that they were prepared to give $750,000 per year; and had the hon. gentleman ratified what they did, we would have had a fast service for a much cheaper rate than we can obtain' it for to-day.
He began by saying that the opposition often complain that the government spend too much, but that now we complain that they are not spending enough. Our complaint has never been that the government have spent too much on a fast Atlantic service. We have backed up every effort the government has made ; we have assented to everything that seemed at all reasonable or seemed to offer any hope of success. We have never found fault with their expenditure in carrying out this great project. But we have criticised, and justly criticised, this government, which came into power declaring to the people that economy was the main plank in their platform, when we found them wildly extravagant in lines which yield no return to the country.
Let me briefly refer to the various offers that have been made for a fast Atlantic service. The government of Sir Charles Tupper received a proposal from the Messrs. Allan In 1896 which they practically accepted. With regard to some details it was incomplete, but those details could easily have been arranged, and, in the main, the offer was practically accepted. The Allans agreed to furnish a twenty-knot service for a subsidy of $750,000 a year in addition to the subsidy offered by the imperial government. Had this government advised the Governor General to ratify that contract, I have no doubt that Canada would have been in the enjoyment of all the advantages which would accrue from a fast Atlantic service. But they did not see fit to do so. On March 24th, 1897, this government entered into a contract with Messrs. Petersen, Tate & Company for a fast Atlantic servoce for $500,000 a year. One year later they had that contract amended. And what was the reason given for amending the contract ? Of course, when the contract was not carried out, the oppo-4444
sition complained of delay ; and, in answer to those complaints, the government said that they had secured the same benefits to Canada for $500,000 that their predecessors had proposed to pay $750,000. They said the fast Atlantic service was an accomplished fact. But a year elapsed and there was no evidence of the contract being fulfilled. Then the government came to parliament and said that the contractors had asked for delay, that there had been a great strike in the old country, an upheaval in the labour world, and the. contractors had not been able to carry out their contract. It was only reasonable, they said, that we should give them greater latitude. And there was another reason. There had been a remarkable improvement, they told us, in the kind of ships likely to be used for a fast Atlantic service in the future, and this firm would take advantage of that Improvement It was called the bottle-necked steamer. This was said to be the steamer of the future, and the government said they desired to take advantage of this latest improvement, so as to give to Canada the best that the progress of the world afforded. They said : Though there has been delay, that delay will result in benefit to the people, for we shall get what our predecessors could not get in their time. And the late Hon. Mr. Dobell expatiated on the great advantages of the bottle-necked steamers and what they would do for Canada, and told us that in comparison with the advantages to be gained, the delay of a year was nothing. On April 3rd, 1898, the contract with Messrs. Petersen, Tate & Company was extended, and it was amended so as to provide for the payment of $750,000 a year-not $500,000 as in the first instance, but the same amount as was proposed to be paid by their predecessors. Against this increased amount, just as against the delay, they placed the advantage that would accrue to Canada from having in this service the bottle-necked steamer, ' the steamer of the future.' It was declared by Sir Charles Tupper, when that contract was announced, that it would never be carried out. The government asserted that it would be carried out; they said they knew these men, that they were men of great financial strength, men of great enterprise, ability and experience. And they said, moreover, that these people had put up a forfeit, which the government would not hesitate to take if the contractors failed to carry out their contract. This, Mr. Speaker, was in 1898. We have no fast Atlantic service yet. These contractors applied for the return of their forfeit, and it has been given back to them, with 3 per cent interest from the time it was placed in the hands of the government. The government failed to get the fast Atlantic service for $500,000 ; they failed to get it ror $759,000 ; they failed to give us the new boats; and now we have to fall back upon the same service

that has existed for the last thirty-five years, neither better nor worse. The government, in the face of these facts, have been obliged to acknowledge failure. And now some of their organs are saying that we do not need a fast Atlantic service, that a fast service is only needed for passengers, but that what we need is a freight service, and a freight service may be a slow one. Is it the fact that we do not need a fast Atlantic service to-day ? We are living in a fast age. If two railways run from one great city to another, and one railway can land its passengers in two hours less than the other, the people will take the fast road, and freight will be sent by the fast road. In our age the individual, the firm or nation that succeeds is the one of life and enterprise, while the other must fail and admit failure. -Compare us with the United States, and where are we ? They have steamers crossing the Atlantic in four and a half and five days, while ours average nine days. Will not the people travel by -the fast line ? And will not freight follow the fast line ? Canadian mails, Canadian freight and the travel to and from Canada go by the -New York line. We need a fast Atlantic service as much as do the American people ; and to the extent that parliament fails in securing it, we fail to do our duty as representatives of the Canadian people. What does it mean to us to-day ? It means that every passenger coming to Canada is landed in the great metropolis of New York. Thousands who intend to come to Canada never reach this country at all. They drift across to San Francisco, and by that way to the Orient and never see Canada. But how would it be. if we had a fast Atlantic service ? That traffic would -come to Canada, would cross our whole country, and would take the Canadian Pacific Railway steamers at Vancouver for the Orient. We should have benefits that we cannot possibly get to-day, because the people never reach our country at all. Our mails are carried by way of New York,. And by whatever way the mails are carried the commerce will be carried. If a man in Toronto orders goods in England he asks to have them shipped by the first steamer. He wants the goods at once. Is it to be supposed that he will have them sent by a steamer that will cross in nine or ten days, when he can have them sent by a steamer that will cross in- five days? Not at all. He is a live, enterprising man and he is going to have those goods on his shelves at the earliest possible moment. To do that he must take advantage of the steamer that will cross the Atlantic in the shortest possible time ; therefore the goods will go by New York. It is the same with passengers and mails. To-day we are denied the advantages of a fast Atlantic service, which we believe we would have had if the present government had been capable, enterprising business men who would have Mr. SPROULE.
been able to grasp the situation and who would have ratified, as they should have done, the contract that was made with Messrs. Allan & Company in 1896. Every man, whether he is a Conservative or a Reformer, admits that we require a national policy in Canada, that we have a national policy in Canada which while it may not be carried out in its entirety is still the policy that Canada wants, a policy that is keeping the market of Canada for the Canadians. We want to develop that national policy to its fullest extent. We will never have the full complement of that national policy until we extend It to our transportation system as we now apply it to keep the home market of our country for our own people. We want a fast Atlantic service to assist the national policy in enabling Canada to develop her trade to the fullest extent, to do her own trade and to provide conveniences for the travelling of her own people, to carry her own products from country to country, advertising her productiveness and doing everything to show the world that Canada can live within herself and is quite as enterprising as the United States or any other country. If we consider the case of a man -coming from Europe deciding whether he should invest his money and settle in Canada or the United States, he will have submitted to him that one fact that the Americans supply a line of steamers that cross the Atlantic in five days while the Canadians take nine. What would this suggest to his mind ? That the one are a live enterprising people and the other a slow people lagging behind in the race of life. That must be the inevitable consequence of our lethai'gy in this matter. It must lead to failure in competition with a mo-re -enterprising rival, and the result is that in nine cases out of ten such a man would decide to make his investment in the country that shows life, enterprise, ability and progressiveness. We are told that we do not want this service ; I say we do want it. It is said that we may want it for passenger traffic and for mails, but not for transporting the produce of our country. The great difficulty we have to-day in transporting the perishable products of Canada so as to lay them down in a proper condition in the markets of England is the -lack of an adequate transportation service. What is needed is a faster transportation service so that these products can be laid down in a shorter time and in better condition. That would mean a better trade, larger profits, more successful operations in life, to the producers of these goods and therefore this line is of as much importance, if not of more importance, to the farmer as to any other class of the community. They are to-day losing a profit which * should accrue to them, on account of the lack of proper transportation facilities. Then the merchants of the country require this service. In order to compete in the race of life with the Americans

they must be alive to the necessities of the situation, and they must be able to bring their goods as quickly to Canada as they [DOT]can be brought to New York, and they must be able to send their mails by Canadian routes as quickly as the American mail can be sent. We must be able to give our trade to our own steamships, to live within ourselves as the Americans do. Our merchants require a fast Atlantic service just as much as do the American merchants. Then the travellers of the country require it: if we had such a service they would go by our routes Instead of through the United States, and Canada would have the benefit of an advertisement which she could never secure in any other possible way. If we were able to compute the number of people who have started out with the intention of visiting Canada and looking into her resources with the hope of making Canada their homes, but who are to-day in the United States owing to'the inadequacy of our steamship service, we would have a significant lesson as to the necessity of such an improvement, and that condition must obtain so long as we have the present inadequate service. The Canadian people must hold the government responsible for this failure. Why have they failed ? I am afraid the Canadian people will say it is because of incompetency, of inability or want of foresight and of good judgment, because if they were possessed of those qualifications we would not be without a proper service to-day. If two men started to do a piece of work and one said M cannot do it ' and the other said ' I can do it,' the one who says, ' I can do it,' and succeeds where the other fails, shows that he lias superior ability and intelligence. In this case one party made ail effort and succeeded so far as it was possible for them to succeed up to the time that they left office. Tlie other party declared that they could do better, they failed. First they made the attempt to do better, then they attempted to do it as well, now they have attempted to do it in any way and to-day Ichabod might well be written over every effort they made. They have acknowledged failure in life and 1t is time for the country to see it and know it and I am inclined to think that when the time comes for that great body to speak they will pronounce as their verdict. in no uncertain tones that the present government, has shown incompetence in regard to this transaction at least.
At one o'clock, House took recess.
House resumed at three o'clock.


William Roche: Mr. Speaker, I regret that this question has been made to a less or greater extent a party question. I think the people of Canada are interested largely in this subject and that It ought not to be a stock subject of political argument between one party or another. I
think that the subject of the fast line originated with the Liberal-Conservative, party. It was used for a number of years as a sort of talisman at the elections, or before the elections, to persuade the inhabitants of the maritime provinces especially and of the rest of Canada generally to support the Liberal-Conservative party in order that they might inaugurate what they termed a fast line. They used that as a sort of a talisman, not that they had any practical scheme in view, not that they had anything definite in the construction of ships, but as something to look forward to as a result of returning the party of progress to power. This question was used to influence the public mind at an early time. I remember that previous to the election of 1887 it was alluded to in the terms to which I have referred and it was a strong factor in the election held that year. It was represented that if the government then in power were returned before the snow flew this line would be in practical operation. I ventured to predict in a', somewhat iconoclastic way that probably ten years afterwards, if that party were returned to power, the same old magnificent castles of the Allan Line would be running and conveying the mails and I think I have reason to believe that I was a true prophet. As far back as 1887 the consummation of this scheme was declared to be immediately at hand. This party pledged to the consummation of the fast line, that they declared to be immediately in the foreground with such flattering prospects of its being carried out, allowed this magnificent project to remain literally glittering in the air until they went out in 1896. Then the subject came in very conveniently. At a public meeting the inevitable telegram came down that a contract had been entered into by the leader of the government with the firm of the Allans Insuring the consummation of this scheme. That had its influence no doubt. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) who has preceded me, alluded to this contract. He referred to it as if it were a definite, well arranged contract entered into on both sides, binding, covering all the essential elements and one such as could have immediately been carried into effect by their successors who unhappily interrupted the even flow of all these benefits.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) would allow me, I did not represent it as a contract that was agreed upon by both sides, but an offer which that company had made, to do this s ervice upon terms which were acceptable to the then government, and would have been entered into provided they had remained in power.


William Roche: I understand perfectly what the hon. gentleman says. I also perfectly understand the difference between what he says and what actually existed. I also refer definitely to the fact that in the course of this hon. gentleman's argument

would be consumed in the voyage across the Atlantic.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Would my hon. friend allow me to ask him, is there any oceangoing steamship to-day navigated by the turbine, or any building ?


William Roche: It is on the channel steamers, and I am told that the Allan Line are building a steamer with turbine engines. The turbine is also used in torpedo-destroyers, which attain an immense rate of speed. The channel, of course, is an ocean passage, the roughest in the world.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What I want to know is, has the turbine been exploited so as to be used on ships crossing the Atlantic ?


Hon. Mr.   BOSS@Victoria, N.S.: The Allans are building a steamer to run to Halifax.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It has not been tried yet; it is an experiment.


William Roche: I regret that the hon. member for East Grey did not confine this subject within its own limits, but incorporated with it the question of the national policy and other matters. The construction of such ships as I have outlined would probably solve the question he has in his mind, that is, the carriage of thei more costly and delicate kinds of freight, which require the most rapid transportation. For most of the products of Canada, such as grain and cattle, the ordinary steamship would be sufficient. If we enlarge our horticultural operations so as to export grapes, plums and others of the more delicate fruits to England, fast boats would be useful; and the simplification of their construction and the diminished space occupied by the engines would enable them to carry this high-class freight. On the large steamship lines running out of New York, the principle advocated by the hon. member for East Grey has been reversed. The large passenger steamers carry the higher classes of freight, called express freight. They do not attempt to carry the bulkier articles, such as are chiefly produced in Canada at the present time. I had an opportunity of conversing with one of the highest shipping authorities in America, Mr. Bonner, freight agent of the North German Lloyds. They own the fastest passenger ships, and a large fleet of freight-carrying steamers, and also handle the largest quantity of goods of any importing firm in America. He is an expert both in the running of ships, the kinds of cargoes, the values of goods and the possibilities of continental trade. As this subject was in agitation in the House last year, I had an opportunity of getting particulars from him on this subject which may be useful. He informed me that the American manufacturers had practically abandoned to the German and other continental manufacturers the production and sale of certain Mr. ROCHE (Halifax).
classes of goods in the United States ; that notwithstanding their development of machinery, their capital, their devotion to the production of these lines, and their patriotic sentiment, that nothing consumed in America should be produced outside of America, those manufacturers were compelled to abandon to the German and other continental manufacturers the production of a certain class of goods in the production of which they could not hope to rival them. Therefore they quit the field and directed their energies upon the production of those kinds of goods which they could produce to advantage, and allowed their exchange for the goods which they imported to pay them for the loss they sustained in consequence of those goods being produced abroad. That is the policy I would commend to my hon. friend from East Grey-to ascertain by observation, analysis and discrimination, just what goods we can produce to advantage, what goods can be better produced by the manufacturers of other countries, and how much we can advantage ourselves by the exchange of the commodities which we can produce to advantage for those in which we cannot hope to rival them. I say there are great possibilities before this fast line, and the attention of Canada should be directed towards it. Without recriminations between the two parties, and without using it as a political expedient, let us all devote our energies to its consummation, derive all the benefit we can from it, and utilize it for the development of the trade in Canada and for the attraction of passengers to Canadian routes. That we shall be able to capture the American passenger trade is very problematical. There is a great advantage in having the longer rail route and the shorter ocean route ; but for some time to come the advantage of the daily sailing of boats from New York will overcome the other advantages. I think, however, that the government are now very fortunately situated, with these advantages and the knowledge they have acquired, to take up the subject of the fast line, and to enter into a contract with a reputable firm, or otherwise to acquire the means of maintaining an Atlantic passenger service as a governmental off-shoot of the great line that is projected. We do not know how many passengers will be carried, or what facilities will be given for a transcontinental and transmarine passage. All these things are in the future. We enter upon the question now at a most favourable epoch. Looking back over the history of this question, looking back to our failures, looking back to the efforts that have been made, and keeping in view the resources of our country, which are now growing so rapidly, let us at this time acquire a line which will be equal in speed, if possible, to those other lines, and at this favourable juncture project this great facility upon the mind of Canada and the attention of the world.


Mr. A. C. BELL (Pictou).: I would uot like, Mr. Speaker, that this debate should pass without the House giving the subject involved a full and fair consideration. It is unfortunate that it has been left to such a late period in the session, but the press of other very important matters wall perhaps furnish a very satisfactory excuse for this delay. The question is perhaps, at first view, not of such great importance to all Canada as it is to the maritime provinces, and particularly Nova Scotia ; but still I think that if it were fully discussed, and all the advantages that would result to Canada from the successful establishment of a really fast line service between Canada and the great centres of population of Europe, fully realized and understood, we would find public opinion throughout Canada supporting the government in any endeavours to realize this great improvement. I do not know7 that there is much advantage to be derived now from a discussion of the reasons why the project has so far not been accomplished. In my opinion, this matter, which had been for at least eight years occupying the attention of the late government, was in 1890 brought to a point where it might be looked upon as having been reduced to a very practical form. Stress has been laid on the fact that there was not a contract in existence between the Allan Company and the government for the establishment of this service, when the present administration came Into power. I do not think that anybody really affirms that there was a contract, but, w'e. on this side of the House, are inclined to take the view that when the administration of Sir Charles Tupper went out of office aud was succeeded by the present, matters were in such a position that the new government could have had a contract completed. Objection is taken to the conditions of the tender made by the Messrs. Allan, upon which that contract would have had to be based ; but if that be put forward as an excuse for the failure of the present admiiiis-tration, it is not one that can be successfully maintained, because the very objections that are made to the proposition of the Allan Company apply to that of the Tate, Petersen Company. The Allan Company wished for a certain delay in which to complete their arrangements. If I mistake not, they wanted a delay of four months. They further desired to have a condition inserted, which is usual with every contract dealing with business on the high seas, namely that exceptional difficulties in the matter of weather, of fog or particular moments of peril in approaching the coast, should be taken into account in estimating the rate of speed the company had to maintain. That objection could not be successfully maintained against the Allan contract, because the same objection would apply to any contract made with any company for a fast line service. But when in 1897 this matter came to be discussed in the House of
Commons and the opposition desired to know why the government had made no progress, the fact was made known that the gentlemen to whom the business had been entrusted by the present government, the late member for Quebec West (Hon. Mr. Dobell), at that time a member of the administration, to the great astonishment of the members of this House, gave it as his deliberate opinion-and we may assume that he was also speaking the opinion of the government as well-that what he wanted was not what might properly be called a fast line service, but what might rather be called a fast freight service. If I am not mistaken, he said that what Canada wanted was a service which would give a speed of some eighteen knots per hour. The moment that announcement was made, the people of the maritime provinces felt that any such service would absolutely fail to accomplish the object we all desire. We do not want an eighteen knot service, as my hon. friend the leader of the opposition said to-day. We do not pretend to say that a fast line freight service, would be an injury to the country, but what we believe is that if any line of steamers were established with an average speed of only eighteen knots an hour, we would absolutely fail to realize the advantages of our geographical position, and to call such a line a fast steamship service would be an absolute misnomer. It would uot represent properly the character of the line. Such a line would fail to realize the advantages which must be realized if we are to h^ve a really fast steamship service on the Atlantic. On account of the difficulties of communication, particularly in the summer months to the end of August, there is a point some hundreds of miles south and south-east of Cape Race, at the south-eastern point of Newfoundland, which is more or less exposed to danger from floating ice and fog. Consequently at that point there is, as it were, a corner which must be turned by all steamships plying across the Atlantic, whether going to New York, Boston or Halifax, or some port in Cape Breton or somewhere on the St. Lawrence. If a vessel is not particularly anxious to maintain a great speed, she may venture to make hef way through this portion of the Atlantic, which is more or less covered with fog, and in which floating ice may be encountered ; but if you are going to have a service of an average speed of 23 to 25 knots, it is clear that the one essential condition which must be complied with is to secure such a route across the Atlantic as may give almost absolute guarantee of security and avoid any danger of collision with ice or other vessels in the fog. To that corner, which must be turned by all steamers going across the Atlantic, the course is practically identical whether the steamers are going to Canadian or American ports The line is practically identical from that point in mid-Atlantic to the coasts of Great Britain and Ireland.

But from that point the courses of the steamers from New York, Halifax or Louisburg would diverge, and we would have from that point in the Atlantic, if we would secure the adoption of a line which would make its terminus at a maritime port of Canada, an advantage in distance which would be equal to 650 miles.
Now, 650 miles means at least a day, or considerably over a day, spent upon the Atlantic. And it is perfectly clear to the people of the maritime provinces who have looked into this matter closely that, if we l'.ave a line of steamers equally fast with the lines to the American ports in their passage across the Atlantic, the Canadian line will beat the American line by at least a day in every voyage westward or eastward. We find, then, that by utilizing the maritime ports of Canada you can land a passenger on the Canadian seaboard at least a day earlier than, he can be landed at an American port. Fortunately, the port of Halifax, the port of Louisburg and the port of Sydney are so exceptionally free from hindrance at their entrance through fog or difficulties of a tidal nature, that delays such as constantly occur at New York need not be expected or allowed for. So, with a fairly good service maintained over the Intercolonial and other railway lines in Canada, a passenger coming by the Canadian line can be landed in Toronto as quickly as he can be landed in New York coming by the American route. But to realize this advantage we must have a Canadian line that is really a fast line. We cannot do anything to divert the great volume of travel to Canadian lines, unless the steamers that are subsidized by Canada are as fast as any that ply. If we have an advantage of one-fifth in distance, we can only . realize that advantage by having steamers as fast as those of our rivals. But, if we have an advantage of one-fifth in distance and lose one-fifth in speed, it is quite evident that no outlay that the Canadian government may make will do anything to attract those for whom speed is any consideration, and so the advantage which we might hope to derive from a fast line will not be ours. Now, a fast line could not be a freight line. We cannot realize through it the advantages which the late Mr. Dobell, a member of this government, seemed to think would be realized by a line of steamers making a speed of eighteen knots. But, if we have a fast line of passenger steamers, those steamers will have a capacity of 1,000 to 1,500 tons or even more, which can be utilized for express freight and the rapid carriage of the perishable products of Canada, which are wanted in unlimited quantities in the mother country, and which, if carried across with sufficient speed, will reach the market in such a condition as to realize prices which will leave a margin for a high rate of freight. Our eggs, our


Adam Carr Bell: butter, our fruit, and other products, if landed in Great Britain promptly and in such steady supply as could be secured by these steamers making proper arrangement with land transportation companies throughout Canada, would be able to pay a high rate for transit of the Atlantic.
It seems to me that, while this is of the highest importance to the people of the maritime provinces, this great project is one which affects every part of Canada. We have heard one gentleman speak here today of the advantage to be derived by Canada from this project in the mere matter of advertising. That is a point which should be considered carefully, for it is of the utmost importance. Canada is so situated to-day that the two great masses of population in the world are likely, as soon as the opportunity is afforded them, to use Canadian routes as a means of passing from one to the other. The teeming population of the Asian coasts with its great commercial centres especially in China and Japan, and the great and rapidly developing population on the continent of Europe- these being by far the greatest masses of population in the world-are so placed that the shortest line of communication between them lies through Canada. That cannot be used, its great results cannot be realized, with our present means of communication. The line is practically closed to these people who would naturally make use of it, for we have not at this moment a service upon the Atlantic such as we should have, affording the shortest, quickest and most comfortable mode of travel which modern conditions provide. Give us a fast line service from Europe to Halifax, Louisburg, or Quebec in summer, and you will put us in a position to attract to the Canadian Pacific Railway and such other transcontinental railways as we may have in Canada, the most important and lucrative travel the world affords. You will practically place Canada in a position to realize all the advantages which she ought to possess from being where she is, actually on the front street of the world, the most important and what ought to be the most used line of passenger travel. There can be no question that enormous advantages would result to this country from an expenditure of anything like a reasonable amount of money which would direct the first-class through travel of practically the whole civilized world through Canada. Who can dispute that ? The advertisement to the country, the knowledge that will be acquired by those people of the highest intelligence and of the highest importance of our wealth producing capabilities in passing backwtards and forwards through this country, will be of incalculable importance to us. It would be impossible for such travel to pass through Canada constantly without disseminating throughout the world, to our enormous advantage, full information as to the cap-

abilities of our country and our sources of wealth. The two things that Canada needs, in order to overcome the disadvantage of a late start, and to place her at once in the front rank of worldpowers are population and capital. And what is more likely to give us population and capital than by placing Canada in the position to attract to herself, practically throughout her whole length, all the first-class travel from the east to the west. There can be no doubt as to the character of the advertisement we might get and as to the advantage to our country which would be made accessible to the people of the whole world in consequence of such movement. X think that, as a rule, the people of the maritime provinces were anxious to see this scheme realized and looked upon it as one of the works that the government must undertake and carry out at an early day. But X think that they realize now that no fast line that is not really a fast line would be acceptable. They do not want any substitute offered to them. We must have a line that is quite as fast and quite as good as anything to be found plying to the ports of the United States. With the work accomplished of giving Canada such a line of steamers as is to be found to-day plying between the ports of Europe and New York, we shall, no doubt, find that it has been the wisest and best expenditure this country has ever made.
Now, there has been a great deal of discussion as to the ports which should be used. It is held by a great many people that in summer the terminal point should be Quebec and that in winter Halifax or some port on the Atlantic coast should be used. That is a matter which it is not necessary at this moment to discuss, and it would be a great misfortune if the discussion of the relative advantages of the different ports should be permitted to delay a settlement of this question. The question of terminals is one that will settle itself as soon as we have the fast line. When that line has been in operation for one year the practice and1 experience of that year's operation will satisfactorily and forever settle the question of the right port to be used by such a line. What is wanted is that the government should endeavour to realize all the advantages which would accrue to Canada from such a service and should endeavour to procure them for Canada at the earliest possible moment. One argument which has been advanced here two or three times to-day has been of a most unsatisfactory character; that is, the attempt that has been made to show the advantages that come from delay, through not proceeding too quickly. It has been pointed out over and over again that if we had proceeded to complete the contract in 1896 as it was submitted to the government we would have had a service whieh, in view of what has been accomplished since that time and of what is now being done, would be an inferior
service, that the 18 or 20-knot service which would have been established in 1896 would not be equal to the service of 23 knots which we see on the Atlantic to-day, and that we would be, to a certain extent, committed to and involved in a line of steamers which would be slower than the best, and therefore not exactly what we want. That is a line of argument which, if applied at all. would involve us in a constant course of delay, and would induce us to go on from year to year without action. It would induce the government and the people of Canada to delay forever coming to a conclusion on this matter because the advances of the next year might render the best that we could now obtain inferior, owing to tbe rapid progress that is constantly taking place in matters of this kind. We cannot afford to go on forever without progress because progress is being made all about us; we must have at once a service that will enable us to realize the advantages of our geographical position and the advantages that should come to us as a rapidly growing country. The right hon. the Prime Minister to-day seemed to think that he had given an answer which ought to be satisfactory to the House and to people of Canada and to justify the government in making no progress in this matter when he pointed out that the tender submitted to the government called for an expenditure of $1,500,000. In view of the fact that this House is this session voting estimates aggregating nearly $70,000,000, it strikes me that any one who knows the importance of tbe fast line project and the advantages that would accrue from such a line, would feel that in view of the general expenditure of Canada, an expenditure of $1,500,000 for this fast service Would not be a wasteful expenditure. If we compare the present expenditure of this country with that of 1896, when the government of the day was quite ready to undertake the expenditure of $750,000 for ttoe purpose of securing this fast line, we will find that the general expenditure has practically doubled, and that therefore the expenditure of $1,500,000 for this service today would bear precisely the same proportion to the general expenditure of the country as $750,000 bore to the general expenditure in 1896. Therefore, to my mind, the cost of the service is not a sufficient reason why the government should altogether refuse to entertain this proposal. I believe and agree that they should exercise caution, and I believe, with the Premier, that economy is a good thing. In fact, I often feel that that view is not as strongly present to the mind of the right hon. the Prime Minister as it might be to the country's advantage. After all, this is a matter of enormous importance, one which involves a great expenditure, but not an expenditure which is beyond the resources of the country. It is a matter which, if the government of the country were as wideawake

as I hope to see them, and as I believe the opposition are, to the development of our industries, and particularly of our shipbuilding, they might very well utilize to induce the construction of large steamers in this country. I would like very much, when the time comes that this project is to be realized, that it should be so managed as to lay the foundation of a great shipbuilding industry somewhere in Canada, and if the government of the day were in a position to make a contract for the construction of two, or three, or four great steamships of the size and power and cost of such steamships as are now occupying the first place upon the Atlantic, they might be able, by calling for the construction of the steamers in Canada, to induce one of the great shipbuilding companies to transfer at least a portion of their shipbuilding plant from the mother country; and to establish in Canada a shipbuilding industry. It would be a most important thing to us if in addition to the fact that we have a line of steamers of the fastest speed, running over the shortest route and affording to the travelling public the greatest possible facilities in regard to comfort and speed, we could proclaim that this Canadian line of steamers, the finest and fastest on the ocean, were of Canadian construction. That would have great value as an advertisement for our country. We have had this matter threshed out in the maritime provinces. Last year a large and representative meeting was held in Halifax at which men of all shades of political opinion, men deeply interested in the commercial success of Halifax and the province, came together and in every way in their power endeavoured to impress on the government the fact that it was regarded as being of the utmost importance to the . province of Nova Scotia that this project should be accomplished. They endeavoured to put their views in such a way as to show that this matter was of importance, not only to the province of Nova Scotia and to the cities by the sea, but to the whole people of Canada. We should not expect that such an outlay as is contemplated should be made in deference to the opinion of any locality. The people of the maritime provinces do not feel for a moment that they should come to the parliament of Canada and urge upon it the adoption of the scheme involving a large expenditure if it was of a local character, and if it affected merely sectional interests. Our opinion is that we have here the shortest line of communication between the greatest masses of population in the world; that we have, if we choose to realize it and to go to the expense necessary to realize it, a position that will place us in the forefront of the world's traffic, and will develop through our country the greatest amount of travel of the most wealthy people and give us all the advantages that must come from full and complete knowledge of Mr. BELL.
our country by these people. No one who visits the western portions of our country can return from it without a feeling of amazement that the country is not making more rapid progress and development and receiving a larger population and without feeling that it is an undeveloped country. What is the cause of that ? That there is as yet no knowledge of our country possessed by the people of the world. Even if the people of the older provinces in Canada to-day have no adequate knowledge of its resources, the extent and the possibilities of wealth to be found in Canada, and if no other advantage could be realized from the establishment of such a line of steamers as I am now advocating than the fact that it would communicate to the world knowledge of our possibilities, of our extent, of our capacity for producing wealth, then I maintain it would be scarcely possible to estimate the advantage that would be derived by this country from the expenditure we have in view.
But, if iu addition to that, a mere calculation ;be made in the most commercial fashion, if we were to develop the commercial view to the utmost and look upon the extent to which shipping would be carried on by a fast line of steamers with the enormous outlay that would be made in connection with the operation of such a line of steamers, with the enormous amount of valuable supplies that would require to be purchased in Canadian ports for such a line of steamers and with the enormous aggregate of increased value which would be attached to all these products of an essentially perishable character of our Canadian farms and orchards which we are sending to the mother country in enormous quantities, and which we hope to send in increased quantities ; then, even from the most commercial point of view which it is possible to take, it seems to me that it would be quite possible to prove conclusively that this expenditure of $1,500,000 would foe repaid directly to the people of Canada in the increased wealth which would be brought about as the result of such an expenditure. There is another thing. I believe that Canada has derived in the past a great deal of credit and advantage from the fact that her conduct throughout has been, in view of her comparatively sparse population, progressive and courageous. There is no doubt that Canada has derived a great deal of advantage from the advertisement she has received the world over from the fact that though a young country, with a small population. she had the courage and ability to grapple with such enormous public works as the Intercolonial Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway, and to carry them to a magnificent and successful completion.


Mr. LEMIETJX.: And the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Adam Carr Bell: mission, marks an epoch in the history of rapid ocean travel. All these things have been accomplished and in the course of a few months will be finally settled. If the Canard Company, in the construction of two new steamers, adopts the turbine engine, it may be taken for granted that the turbine engine is no longer a matter of doubt. If the result of the adoption of the turbine engine system be, as it is expected it will be by these great Atlantic greyhounds, then these great steamers, with the tremendous speed which they will develop from this new motive power, will increase their earning capacity, and one after another of the objections which may have stood in the way of the government proceeding to deal with this matter will have been removed. No longer will there be strikes, or the interference of a great war with business ; or the anticipated introduction of some new and approved method which might, perhaps, outclass the steamers which we at the moment were proposing to build. The government is now in such a position, that they will be unable to approach parliament again with any excuse for inaction or for failure to accomplish the end we have in view. They will be clearly open to the charge of being half-hearted in dealing with this great measure, if they do not, at the next session of parliament, submit some tangible evidence that we will have a fast line in the near future. For my own part I feel that this is a matter of importance to the whole of Canada, but apart from that, I feel that it is of particular importance to the maritime provinces. I know that there is no idea quite so cherished in the minds of the active business men of Nova Scotia, as that they may hope at some early day to see Halifax, or some other port in the maritime provinces become the terminus of a steamship line, which will be of world-wide fame, and which will turn to the shores of our country the most enlightened, the most cultured, and the most enterprising and energetic of the people of this world.


Mr. H. J. LOGAN (Cumberland).: Earlier in the session I had the opportunity of giving my views on this fast Atlantic service, so that to-day I need not occupy but a few moments of the time of the House. I congratulate the member for Pictou (Mr. Bell), upon the fairness of his speech. He has stated his recognition of the difficulties which lie in the way of the accomplishment 1n the immediate future, of the object which we have in view in reference to this fast Atlantic service. I regret that the motion before the House after expressing the opinion that we are in favour of this project, has gone further and proclaimed a want of confidence in the government. The first clause of the motion reads :
This House affirms its belief that great advantages would result to Canada, as well as to the mother country from the establishment of a fast Atlantic service between the two countries.


Adam Carr Bell: Had the motion ended there, it would have been accorded the unanimous approval of this House, and it would have given strength and aid to this government in the furtherance of this difficult undertaking ; but unfortunately, the resolution goes further, and it makes a party question of a matter that ought to be above politics. Personally, I am firmly convinced of the vast benefits which would be derived from a Canadian fast Atlantic service ; but I cannot declare by my vote, that the government have been derelict in their duty when I believe that they have not been, and I know that they have encountered great difficulties, some of which have been enumerated by my hon. friend from Pictou. Let me say, Sir, that my opinion is, that if we cannot get a really fast Atlantic service, then we should not subsidize a so-called fast Atlantic ser-vince. I am opposed to subsidizing steamers of less than twenty knots. We should have a fast line in every sense of the word. I believe that one great benefit to be attained will be the advertisement which Canada will get before the world. Any one who has travelled in the old land must recognize the dire ignorance of a great many people there, as to the capabilities, the resources, and the geography of Canada. I regret to say that 95 per cent of those who come from England to Canada, come through the United States. They receive their first impressions of this continent in that great and wealthy city of New York. They enter our Dominion through the backdoor of Canada, instead of by the front door, which is to be found in the maritime provinces. The traveller when he lands at a Canadian port in the east, as he travels to the Pacific coast, learns as never before what a magnificent heritage the British empire has in this Dominion. If we had a steamship service equal to the best running to New York, we would have the travel from England diverted through Canada, and we would afford to Englishmen who came to Canada an oportunity of realizing the great extent and great natural wealth of our country. I believe, that viewed from this aspect alone, it would fully recompense us, for the granting of even a large subsidy to this service. I promised that my remarks would be brief, and I shall not enter further into an argument in favour of this proposition. I repeat, that if we cannot get a real fast line of steamers, we should not enter into competition with the private companies which are now engaged in the Atlantic trade. Let us have a fast Atlantic service in the true sense of the word ; a fast Atlantic service which will be a world-wide advertisement for Canada ; a fast Atlantic service which will be able to compete with the very fastest steamers running to United States ports.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It is unfortunate for Canada and for this parliament, that all great questions are relegated to a few moments discussion, whereas the

little petty domestic questions are dilated [DOT]on for weeks and weeks. That has been the misfortune of Canada ever since confederation. A trifling question, as to whether a little wharf should cost $5,000 or $10,000, receives days and days of discussion, but a great question which makes for the life of the nation, is thrown overboard in a few minutes. That has been the weakness of Canada, and so long as I am here I shall endeavour to correct that weakness. We want to discuss national affairs here. We want to make a nation of Canada, and we cannot make a nation of Canada by discussing, for days, five thousand dollar grants to wharfs. We cannot make a nation- of Canada by taking weeks in discussing the question of binder twine. These questions may be discussed in the township council ; this parliament is for the discussion of great national questions. It is for us to solve the problem of how we can lay the foundations of Canada, so that she may have a controlling and dominating influence in the whole world. When such a question is under discussion here, some people make excuses for the time that they occupy. I shall make no such excuse. The debate on the transcontinental railway, and the debate on this fast Atlantic line are the only two subjects which were worthy of the consideration of the Canadian parliament this session. These other petty questions, can be discussed by school trustees, and by county councils, whose members have no ideas beyond the mere parish in which they live.
Now, Sir, I want to say, that the conduct of the Canadian people with reference to the establishment of a fast Atlantic line, has been insignificant and mean beyond all compare. We have been pretending to make progress on this continent; we have been pretending to dispute the supremacy of the United States in commerce, and, yet we have been debating for ten of fifteen years, whether we are to establish a fast steamship line.
I was pleased with one remark of the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Bell). He said, what are we engaged in these internal developments for, what are we building lines of railway for, unless it is for the purpose of carrying the commerce of this country to the sea ? And what is the use of carrying it there unless we have the most approved facilities for distributing it over the whole world ? We are always beginning things in Canada at the wrong end. We are such a little, illogical people. We have been accustomed to look at public questions from such a narrow provincial standpoint that we have not an intelligent idea in our pates about the possibilities of Canada as a whole. The time is past for that kind of thing ; and hereafter when I hear any man in this parliament endeavouring to bring the great public questions down to the low level of party politics, I
will say he is not fit to be in this parliament. The question before us is whether Canada is to be a great commercial country. What man would ever think of party politics on a question like this ? The man who would introduce politics on this question would want his mother-in-law's funeral to be run on political lines. This is a business question, and is to be discussed as such. If a great steamship or mercantile company, with the resources of Canada, wanted to establish a steamship line, it would have been established in two weeks. I think the Prime Minister ought to have blushed when he referred to the statute passed on this subject as far back as 1889 ; and I venture to say that that statute was not passed without a discussion for ten or twelve years previous. The people of Canada are so sleepy and so narrow that you have to talk about a question for years before it enters parliament; and although this question entered parliament in 1889, we find that statute after statute have been passed, and year after year has been wasted down to 1903, and we are not one step nearer to a fast Atlantic steamship line than we were on the day the first word was spoken on the subject. Is that creditable to the people of Canada ? Does it look like the action of a dominating people ? Can we ever hope, with such conduct as that, to become anything but a people who will receive the contempt of the whole world ? I think the people of Canada deserve the contempt which the people of the United States have shown to us. The public men of this country should be spat upon for the mean, contemptible way in which they have treated the people of Canada. We look to them to lead the people. Instead of that, the people have had to drive them with a whip. Instead of leading, they have been, like cowards, listening to hear what this or that little man would say. The leader of a people should have at least twenty-five years of out-look beyond the ordinary man, and then he should beckon the people to come on and follow him. Instead of that, we have had the political leaders of this country, little fellows, holding back until they have been horsewhipped by the country and forced to go on. The people have been bigger than their leaders. That has been the position of affairs in this country. I for one protest in the name of Canada. I want to see this country great. I do not want to go down to the grave with this country but little greater than it was when it came from the Indians. We hear a great deal of talk, but we have been making little real progress. We have been for fourteen years talking about establishing a fast Atlantic steamship line, which a company of business men would have established in twenty-four hours. I want to refer to one remark of the Prime Minister, and in doing so I do not wish to be unkind. I think the Prime Minister made a great mistake in talking about this question of a subsidy,

when he spoke of the difference between $750,000, which was the subsidy for which the Allans offered a steamship service some years ago, and the $500,000 for which the Tate people afterwards ottered to establish a line. Has it come to this, that on a great national question of establishing a steamship line to dominate the trade and travel of this country, a public man tells this House that $250,000 is going to be considered for one moment ? Further, the Prime Minister said, even now this House would consider very gravely this question. I undertake to say that the right hon. gentleman misstated the character of this House, Or else this House ought to be dissolved to-morrow, and a better class of men brought into it. If that statement is true, this House ought not to be permitted to represent the public feeling of Canada one hour ; because it is entirely beneath the public sentiment of Canada as it exists to-day, and the sooner it is thrown to the winds the better ; and let an able, cultivated. broad-minded class of men come in who will represent the public opinion of Canada as it exists to-day. I was sorry when the Prime Minister said that even now this House could debate about $250,000 on the great question of establishing a steamship line which might mean the dominating of the commerce of the Atlantic by Canada, instead of it pouring into New York and making that city one of the great commercial centres of the world. I want to say a word to the people, not of Ontario- I know no Ontario on this question-but the middle west of Canada, which is around the great lakes ; I want to refer also to the west of Canada, and then I want to refer to the Pacific coast of Canada. There are no provinces on a great national question of this kind ; and any man who debates this question from a provincial point of view shows that he has not got above the narrow provincial education of former days. I am not a Nova Scotian ; I am not a maritime province man. I am a Canadian, and it is my duty to advocate a harbour on Lake Superior just as strongly and ardently as I would a harbour in Nova Scotia. If I did not do so, I would not be worthy of a seat in this parliament. I want to say that this is not a Nova Scotia or maritime province matter. It is a Canadian matter, and the fame and reputation of Canada depends on the exploiting of her maritime powers. No nation in the history of the world has ever achieved greatness without being great on the sea. England was almost a barbarous country three hundred years ago, and she had to whip Spain and Holland and France in succession in order to triumph on the sea. When she did that she became the great wealthy power of the world. Spain was great when she was a commercial power. So was Holland. So was Venice when all the ships of the world sought her ports. Go back to the very dawn of time, Mr. GOURLEY.
and you will find that the nations that were great were great in commerce. We ought all to be students, and there is only one book from which men can learn anything worth learning ; 'that is the book in which human experience is put down. That book is the hook of all-history. It tells us, if we will learn, that our country, in order to be great, must master the commerce of this continent; and how can we pretend to do that unless we can establish a fast line of steamships of our own and capture the passenger traffic ? Here is the Prime Minister going over this country talking about our being a young nation, when he cannot secure the travel, when we cannot get the men who are going to London from Canada to take a Canadian steamer. We talk about being a nation, we are nothing but scrubs, and the United States people will some day wipe us off the face of this continent. I hope that these unfortunate rumours that we hear about the corridors are not true; because if they are. all the Yankees will have to do is to make a claim for Canada and they will get every square mile of it by their boastfulness and dishonest methods in diplomacy. I refuse to believe these rumours; but if they be true, we may as well give up all commercial aspirations. But if we are to have a line of steamers, that service should be the very best. It should not be inferior to any steamship service on this continent. We should have a steamship service which will rival the great New York lines. What is the sense of talking to-day about an 18 knot service and a 20 knot service ? Why not get a half a dozen of rafts and start them from Halifax ? That would be just as good as an 18 knot service. I would just as lief jump into the Atlantic and swim across as take one of your 18 knot boats. Such a proposition is an insult to the Canadian people. If you establish a service inferior to any other that exists on this continent, you will hear from the maritime provinces. We have our power in this confederation, and are not to be imposed upon by any second or third-class steamship service. Let me tell the people of Ontario that they are a maritime people and they ought to exploit, their great lakes and equip them in the very best fashion. In like manner should the people of the Province of Quebec look after their maritime opportunities. Let them equip the whole line of the St. Lawrence and the Bay des Chaleurs. That whole route should be covered with wharfs and furnished with the most improved system of securities to navigation, so that ships in distress could obtain shelter at any time and the world would know that the coast of Canada is the safest place on the north Atlantic in which to seek refuge. Then look at the humiliating position which we have been placed by the boastfulness of our Yankee friends. They have boasted us out of existence. What happened in London at

the dinner of the Pilgrims Society the other day ? Our Commissioner, Mr. Aylesworth, had to get up and tell the British people that there was another country on this North American continent besides the United States. These Englishmen, these stupid Englishmen

Some lion. MEMBERS. Order.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I speak of the Englishmen of the last sixty years. I am of English descent but of the great English breed before two generations ago. The last two generations are degenerates and cowards. They have had no leaders for sixty years. Since Pitt died, there has never been a great leader in England. But they have got Chamberlain to-day who is trying to galvanize and put life into the flesh and blood that is now going around in the old country in the form of human beings, and we wiil have a new breed of Englishmen, such as a generation ago roamed and dominated the whole world, to the glory of the British flag. That breed is coming back. We have it in Canada to perfection. The highest breed of the Saxon race to-day is in Canada. We have never become degenerate, but we have been overshadowed by the bluster and brag of the United States. I want to make ports in Halifax, St. John and Montreal that will overshadow New York, Boston and Portland, and we can do it. Talk about $250,000. Why, Mr. Speaker, if you are a wealthy man you should give a check and settle this thing in five minutes. Fancy the people of Canada haggling over a paltry $250,000, when considering the question of a national line of fast Atlantic steamers. No wonder we have been and will continue to be the laughing stock of this continent. One morning at breakfast last summer, I took up a newspaper and saw that a number of people had gathered to say good-by to the Countess of Minto, the beloved wife of the Governor General, and a lovely woman. But it was very humiliating to find that even the consort of our Governor General should have to leave our shores and go to a United States port to take passage for England. What could be more insulting to the high spirit and pride of the people of Canada than that the wife of our Governor General should have to go to New York to find her way to London ? I am imputing nothing or passing no criticism on that lady's conduct, but merely giving it as an illustration of the inferior position we occupy. I presume that the Governor General will do the same thing. My boy at the breakfast table asked me why this lady went by New York. That is the first question that suggests itself to the minds of the young people in this country. This kind of thing poisons the mind of the young. It tends to make them think little of their own country and to look upon Canadians as inferior to other people. Why should our Canadian merchants run to New York 445
when they want to leave this country ? I have a letter from a young man, belonging to Truro, who crossed over to England, and he says he will never go to England again until we have a fast Atlantic line of steamers. He says that over at the Cecil Hotel in London there were a number of Canadians who appeared to view this thing in a different light; but the people of Ontario have never had the national prida that we feel in the maritime provinces, because if they had, we would never have had Portland made the terminus of the Grand Trunk Railway. There would have been a revolution first, but they had their spirits subjected and their souls depressed by subjection to the United States. We have never undergone that experience or occupied that position in the maritime provinces, and consequently we cannot understand why Canadians should submit to this inferiority. This young man was in London at the Cecil hotel a little while ago, and he found that every Canadian there intended crossing the Atlantic to New York. He was the only one who was taking a steamer to Halifax, and he said that he was reviled and laughed at by 'these Canadians from Ontario, just because they were in the presence of Americans. They thought it good form to laugh and sneer at the Nova Scotian who was sticking to the route by Halifax. He would have to leave two days earlier and arrive a day and a half later going by Canadian steamers, and he said :	I wiil
never go to the old country again until we have a fast line of steamers; and he begged me for heaven's sake to urge the parliament of the Dominion to remove this humiliation which the people of Canada have to suffer in the old country when they meet a lot of Yankees who boast of their splendid fast steamship service and ridicule Canadians.
I want to refer for a moment to the excuse which the right hon. the Prime Minister gave us for delay. The Boer war has been responsible for a lot of things. Just imagine the Premier giving the Boer war as an excuse for this long delay in establishing a fast steamship service ! Why, the Boer war started three years after he came into power. It did not start until October, 1899, and he had every chance during the preceding three years to establish that service. But what discourages me more than anything else is his statement that we must wait for naval changes. Why, from the earliest time naval changes have been going on from year to year, starting with the old Greek triremes. Suppose the Greeks had waited for modern steamers what progress would they have made ? The Prime Minister wants us to wait for two or three generations until we ane all gone and will only be able to look down from a higher sphere at what is taking place here below. I know nothing that encourages me to think that this line of steamships is more to the



front, than It was ten or fifteen years ago. As to naval changes we ought to establish our steamship line now, in the best fashion that the world's development in navigation will allow. Of course, naval changes will take place. When they take place, adopt them. That is what the steamship lines do, and why should we not do the same ? To wait for naval changes, that might take place, is^fiio way to meet this problem. That is but a weak excuse that the Prime Minister gives us. I hope the government will not wait for the turbine. Of course, we all hope to see the turbine developed, and made practically useful, for it will make the passage across the Atlantic a mere holiday trip, of two or three days. That is one of the splendid accomplishments we may hope for, in the future. But it is a good deal like the wireless telegraph-it will come In two or three years, perhaps five or ten years ; but it will take time to perfect it. Do not, for heaven's sake, delay this line for any such chimera. It will come in good time, but, in the meantime, our fast Atlantic service will be established. Get the best line that can be attained, and get it at pnce. The question has been raised of an expenditure of $250,000, more or less. What is $250,000, in comparison with a scheme like this ? Let ns spend $5,000,000, if necessary. Why, you are giving subsidies to railways, half of which, no doubt, will be stolen. I have no doubt, that enough will be stolen out of the railway subsidies, given this year to give $5,000,000 for a fast Atlantic service. I have no interest in this mean economy. The people do not mind expending money. All we ask, is for you to keep it out of the hands of the boodlers. If it is spent honestly, let it pour out in a stream. We cannot do the work we are here to do, if we are to stop to consider a question of $250,000, in connection with a scheme to join the two continents, and give Canada a precedence throughout the world. Why, it is like a rich man talking about whether he will give ten cents or twenty-five cents to his valet- what does it matter which he gives ? If you are going to get the service, you must pay for it. But what has happened ? I do not want to blame the Prime Minister too much, but just think what this government of business men did. They found a contract witli the Allans, when they came into power-or an offer from the Allans. My hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Roche) made a point about the difference between a contract and an offer. Why, even lawyers do not think of these differences. If two men meet and agree, that is a contract-a clerk can look after the matters of detail. All that -was necessary, in this case, was for the government to say the word, and they could have had the fast line, at once. Then, if the Allans found that their subsidy was not enough, let them come back, and we could double it. If they still found it not enough, let them come back, and we could Mr. GOtTRLEY.
double it again. That is the way for men to deal with a great scheme like this, at the founding of a nation. We are not deputy reeves of a township. We stand at the creation and birth of a nation, and we must have bigger and broader ideas, if ve are to yove ourselves statesmen equal to our opportunities. And what has this penny-wise-pound-foolish statesmanship led to ? A few years ago we had an offer from the Allans for a line of steamships for $750,000. The government, inspired by Ontario politics-for I see the hand of Ontario in all this-wanted to cut this down. They wanted to go to the public and say : We have saved $250,000 ; two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ! What great statesmen we are. Why in any reasonable country they would have been hooted from the political platform. But the Prime Minister-and, living so near the Atlantic as Quebec, lie should have had a broader outlook and wider aspiration ; but I believe he was speaking in Toronto and no doubt he felt the freezing influence of Toronto around him so his ideas contracted under the chilling influence-boasted of this saving of $250,000. It is greatly to his discredit that he introduced such an argument into the consideration of a great question like this. It was beneath the dignity of the Prime Minister of this country. I say to the Prime Minister that he should not have allowed his Ontario colleagues to interfere. He should have told them to stand by while lie settled this question himself. He should have said : Go into another room and sit down until I get through with this business. But, instead of doing that he listened to them. And now, instead of accepting $750,000, the Allans come back and demand $1,-
500,000	for the same work. That is the result of this picayune policy of saving ten cents in connection with great national issues. It is something like our fellows-and I mention this to show that I have no sympathy with this kind of thing wherever it is found-who went down to Newfoundland to negotiate the bringing of that great island into confederation. They went there and they opened a bargain as if they were buying so much old junk. They thought that a great people like the people of Newfoundland should be content to deal with a matter of this kind on the basis of figuring out with the stub of a pencil and trying to cut off five cents here and ten cents there. Why, what would a proud province like Newfoundland do? They turned them out and have been laughing at them ever since. Why, in such a matter Canada's position was like that of a man courting a girl. He may cover her with diamonds but when he marries her they are all his own. Whatever we had given to Newfoundland would have been ours after the union. But these people had not outlook enough to see that. So are our dealings with this fast line subsidy.
Now, with reference to speed, I want

first to know the speed to New York, and I want to have a line that will be one or two knots faster. It is idle for us to enter into a contract with steamers having the same speed as those to New York. That port has its advantages. It fills the mind, it fills the imagination of the world, and it will be attractive above the ports of Canada even with the same service. You have to establish in the public mind of England and Canada the fact that the service to Canada is faster than that to the United States. Therefore, I repudiate any service unless it is faster by one or two knots than that to New York. I want no more picayune, tu'penny-ha'penny bargains. Either throw the project up and say we are not equal to it, or establish it whatever it may cost. As to the port to which it is to run, let these competent steamship people determine where that is to be. We can control them, whether they go to Quebec, Halifax, Montreal or St. John. Pile on the subsidy; give them every help that they need ; let Canada settle this question, once for all, whatever it may cost. My hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) referred to the ignominy endured by the people of Canada, from the fact that the English parliamentary visitors coming to Canada, landed at New York. Of course, that is a back-handed slap at Canada. It is an advertisement to the people of Europe, and to the world, and an acknowledgment on the part of the people of Canada, that the people of the United States occupy a superior position, and we an inferior position. And that is the idea that prevails. There is ho use talking about it, it prevails. The result is that to many of the English people, America is the United States. And we deserve that. Do not let us shirk our responsibility ; we are responsible for the opinion that exists in England because we have allowed the port of New York to be known all over the world. New York is in the United States and most people in the old world know of no port in America but the port of New York. That is America to them, and although we have ports here, we have stood by and let them remain unknown, and as a consequence Canada is unknown and we are responsible, we who are sitting here in parliament are responsible for the degradation of Canada, and we cannot escape that responsibility. I am determined, as far as I am concerned, to escape it; if you want the degradation, you shall have it, but I shall have no part of it; I shall declare to this House and to the country that we alone are responsible for the fact that Canada occupies the mean position on this continent she occupies to-day. Halifax, St. John and Montreal should be more than equal to Boston or New York if we had had men equal to Henry Clay and Daniel Webster who exploited the national resources and national fame of the United States. But we had a smaller class of men, or if we had some big men we had so many small men 445J
that they climbed on their backs and kept them from carrying out their ideas. Of course the Liberal party are more .responsible for that; the hon. gentlemen were chiefly concerned whether napkins should be washed once or twice a week, and whether a gentleman should have more than one champagne glass for each of his guests. These were the great questions that occupied the attention of parliament year by year, when these great topics to which I have referred should have been up for discussion. With regard to the term for which the contract should endure, some gentlemen say you should make this contract for ten years. That is too short. How can you expect a great company to invest millions of money on a contract that will run for only ten years ? You can scarcely get a great enterprise started inside of ten years. You should make your contract for a long period and in a liberal spirit, so that the company entering the contract would know from the start that they were in the hands of sympathetic friends, of people who desired to help them at every turn and not to worry and harass them. We should make a contract for twenty or thirty years in order that the company may feel sure of a safe and growing business and that no shortness of time would deprive them of the advantages they might expect from the exploitation of their business, and that no other company should be able to come in and for some little question of a million and a half dollars of subsidy cut their trade from under them. What a tremendous thing it would be for Canada to have a powerful company go into this business and exploit it! Equip your ships with the greatest luxury and comfort so that they will be superior to anything in New York, and then if necessary, build one or two short lines from here to Halifax or St. John, and make your coaches and dining cars on these lines the finest in the world, so that every man from England or any European country returning from New York would say :	The finest railway and steamship service In America is the Canadian service. Let us spread that idea abroad whether it costs one million dollars or ten million dollars and then we shall have done something for Canada. Would it not have been better fifteen or twenty years ago to have grasped that idea and to have borrowed $20,000,000 for this purpose? It might have given us thousands of millions of a return, given us population, gixen us fame and reputation and lifted us from the petty position of little provinces into a great nation. The only way in which we will ever get to be a nation is by adopting comprehensive measures of this kind. Sir, I am the smallest man in the county of Colchester, the man with the most limited vision, with the narrowest ideas ; my constituents are all my superiors in education, intellect, brain and everything of that kind, and therefore I am surprised when I find

a number of members of parliament up here who seem not the equals of the average citizen of the province of Nova Scotia. X expected when I came to this parliament to see men of vast learning, and vast outlook, and vast research, and vast capacity for statesmanship. There are such men in Canada and perhaps there are such men in this House, but they have not exhibited that liberality and breadth of sentiment in this matter that I could have desired. 1 hope the time will come when in discussing matters of this kind men from Ontario and from Manitoba will'be the first to rise and say :	This is a maritime question, let us
join together to further it. A maritime question is really more important to a man in Manitoba or the inland country than to the people near the sea, because what is the use of people in the inland provinces raising vast crops if they have not the easiest communication to the sea and the best communication across the sea to carry their products to the markets of the world? I hope that hereafter we will not see maritime province members indulging in these discussions ; it is wrong-gentlemen from the west, from Ontario, should be the first on their feet to urge the claims I have been urging to-day. That I hope will be the character of the public men in this country in a few years. If the question under discussion has reference to a harbour at Midland or on Lake Superior it will be the men from the maritime provinces and the men from British Columbia who will support it. It will be these men who will urge the opening of communication with the western prairies via Hudson's bay in order that the grain of the west may reach Europe by that route instead of dribbling south through the United States. That should be the ambition and the hope of every man in this country, and, so far as I am concerned, I will never cease advocating these opinions because until we accept them we can never be anything but little, scattered and disjointed provinces.
Hon.. Wm. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) Mr. Speaker, I protest against the expression which my hon. friend from Colchester (Mr. Gourley) has used in reference to the want of intelligence of the Englishmen.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I meant those of the last sixty years ; of the last two or three generations.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.).: Let us take the House of Commons and the House of Lords in England to-day and you will find there representative men equal to any House in Europe or any other place, and it would be well for us, and well also for the hon. member for Colchester, if he had the intelligence and the logical acumen that these people possess. Certainly they would not wander from Dan to Beersheba as the hon. gentleman has done.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That is the trouble with them ; they have blinders on and never see Mr. GOURLEY.
anything between these blinders. God help my soul there is not one of them fit to drive a band of sheep across the country.


William Ross: I am pretty well acquainted with the people of Colchester county of both parties, and I must say I do not know one man of either party in Colchester county capable of making the speech which we have listened to from the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley) to-day. He and I agree on one thing, that the fast line should be kept out of politics, and that both parties should unite in securing the fastest and the best service, and I think it is a most fortunate thing for the Dominion of Canada that we did not engage in a fast line eight or nine or ten years ago, because if we had done so we would now be behind the age in every respect. While the hon. gentleman (Mr. Gourley) condemns the bringing of this s.ubject into party politics the resolution which he is going to support and for which he is going to vote makes it immediately a party question, because the resolution is brought to condemn the action of the gov-' ernment in not having established a fast line. I am with the hon. gentleman in his desire to keep this out of party politics, and I want to repeat that it is a fortunate thing that we did not establish a fast line before now, because now we do get it-and I think it is going to come perhaps sooner than some people expect-we will have the best and the fastest line, superior to anything that crosses from Europe to New York, and nothing else will satisfy us.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: If we get this fast line must we not improve it every hour and keep it up to date ? If we had got it ten years ago we would have had to improve it every hour and keep it up to date. This will go on just the same. Changes will come and we will have to adopt them.


Mr. C. E. KAULBACH (Lunenburg).: The subject under discussion-a fast line steamship service-is one that has engaged the attention of parliament for some years, and one which has been looked upon with much favour by many Canadians interested in having ourselves as Canadians keep pace with our neighbours to the south of us.
When we consider that Halifax is 400 miles nearer old England-the world-centre of trade -than New York and that the port of Halifax is second to none in America for approach and safety when in it, I can see no reason why we should lack in enterprise, why we should not be equal to the emergency, act upon our impulses, and have a line of steamers to compete with our neighbours. It is humiliating to find Canadians, when taking a trip to England, leaving Canada and going to New York, away from the objective point, in order to find a fast line boat to accomplish such a voyage, and the same returning, when we can so readily have a service of our own. I want to see the condition

of matters reversed, and we Canadians have a fast line of our own, with Halifax, so to speak, the New York of Canada, as well as the entrepot of trade, offering inducements for Americans to come to Halifax and embark for the old world, from that point, and vice versa, which we will find quite within our reach, if we set about it determined to have it.
If Halifax could only see herself as others see her, if she would free herself from that lethargy which has possessed her in the past, if she would think of the future which is hers, and bestir herself, with the determination to realize the duty she owes to herself and the country, with the great natural advantages within her grasp, she could be all she desires to be. She could be the chief depot of trade for Canada, and for enterprise and thrift a second New York.
But there is one thing that suggests itself to me, as a matter of vital importance, in connection with: the protection of life and property, and that is the course these fast line boats should be required to take for the safety of the lives of fishermen engaged in the fisheries on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. The ocean track for steamers at present plying between Great Britain and Halifax is across the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, which means devastation, swift and sure, to any vessels found at anchor in the track of any of these boats moving along at a fast rate of speed. When the horizon is clear, danger from these boats can be seen and averted by signals, fog trumpets or guns, but when the fog shuts down and the storm king rides with fury on the blast, preventing the sound of the fog trumpet or gun from being heard, or when the fog prevents the discernment of the lights of an approaching ship in the distance, the ship, with her speed unabated in order to accomplish a quick passage, ruthlessly presses forward when crossing the banks, regardless of the lives of the poor fishermen. Then it is that death, swift and sure to all vessels' crews in their track is occasioned.
But for this risk, the life of the fisherman is a comparatively pleasant one. The fishermen often in conversation express themselves as being regardless of danger, feeling when at sea on board their vessels, which are seaworthy, staunch and strong, such as those composing the fleet from my county, as safe as if they were on land, and to emphasize this expression of feeling, they can truthfully and with a happy, fight, good, loyal, hearty ring, sing the old familiar song : A life on the ocean wave,
A home on the rolling deep.
Or the more pathetic one, * Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep.' Or when the fisherman returns to his domesticated home, ' The Cottage by the Sea.'
On behalf of this class of hardy, brave fishermen, to whom much of the success of Nova Scotia depends, my county in particu-
Iar, I must ask if it is not possible to have the attention of other countries called to the many risks attending fishermen on the Grand Banks when pursuing their calling, and have an arrangement made with the United States and the old world, through their respective boards of trade, and they with their respective governments, with the object of having all lines of steamers traversing the north Atlantic between America and the old world, excepting those going north of Newfoundland, take a course along the southern edge of the Grand Banks, and south of Sable island, which would carry them free of all the fogs of the banks, and the risks of icebergs, and better still, avoid the risk of the destruction, as I have stated, of the lives and property of fishermen.
I would ask the government to consider this matter very carefully, so important to our fishermen, and endeavour to effect an arrangement on the lines I have suggested.
House divided on amendment Hr. Borden
(Halifax).
 YEAS :	
Messieurs	
Alcorn,	Haggart,
Avery,	Hughes (Vi ctori a),
Bell,	Lancaster.
Blain,	LaRivi&re,
Clancy,	Morin,
Clare,	Richardson,
Clarke,	Sproule,
Cochrane,	Taylor,
Fowler.	Vrooman,
Gtourley,	Wilmot -20.
NAYS :	
Messieurs	
Archambault,	LeBlanc,
Bazineit,	Lemieux,
Belcourt,	Lewis,
Bernier,	Macdonald,
Blair,	Macpherson,
Borden (Sir Frederick),	McCool,
Bourbonnais,	McCreary,
Bruneau,	Mclsaac,
Bureau,	Madore,
Calvert,	Malouin.
Campbell,	Mar-eil (Bonaventure),
Carbonneau,	Mignault,
Carroll,	Morrison,
Champagne,	Mu lock (Sir William),
Christie,	Oliver,
Copp,	Paterson,
Demers (St. John),	PrSfontaine,
Desjardins,	Proulx,
Douglas,	Reid (Restigouche),
Emmerson,	Roche (Halifax),
Fisher,	Ross (Ontario),
Fitzpatrick,	Ross (Victoria, N.S.),
Fraser,	Scott,
Gibson,	Sutherland (Oxford),
Girard,	Talbot,
Kendall,	Tolmie.
Lang,	Tucker,
Lau-rier (Sir Wilfrid),	Turgeon,
Lavergne,	Wallace.:-58.
PAIRS :
Ministerial.	Opposition.
Thompson (Haldimand Ingram, and Monok),
Cartwright (Sir Rich'd), Tupper (Sir C. H.), Byment,	McCormick,
MoColl.	Ward,

Sutherland (Essex),	Northrup,
Harty,	Reid (Grenville),
Wade.	Smith (Wentworth),
Riley,	Earle,
Maelaren (Huntingdon)	Rosamond,
Stephens,	Seagram,
Fortier,	Roddick,
Holmes,	Kendry,
Ross (Rimouski),	Casgrain,
McGugan,	EDackett,
Murray,	Barker,
Gallery,	Kemp,
Loy,	Kaulbach,
Schell,	Birkett,
Erb,	Brock,
Mackie,	Bruce,
Meigs,	Carscallen,
Brown,	Halliday,
Bickerdike,	Kidd.
Laurier (L'Assomption), Leonard,	
Ethier,	Maclean,
Russell,	Monk,
Matheson,	Robinson (Elgin),
Smith (Vancouver),	Sherritt,
Logan,	Lefurgey,
Hyiman.	Gilmour,
Johnston (Lambton),	Simmons,
Charlton,	Tisdale,
Guthrie.	Porter,
Cowan,	Pringle,
Panmelee,	Pope,
Costigan,	Hale,
Gould,	Thomson (Grey),
Heyd,	Tolton,
Grant,	McGowan,
Tobin,	Ball,
Davis,	Roche (Marquette),
Beith,	Culbert,
Wright.	Lavell,
Fielding,	Borden (Halifax),
McCarthy,	Bennett,
Ross (Yukon),	Boyd,
German.	Broder,
Stewart,	Calvin,
Bel and,	Ganong,
Johnston (Cape Breton),	Johnston (Cardwell),
Galliher.	Lennox,
McEwen,	MacLaren (Perlth),
Lovell.	McIntosh,
Geoffrion,	Osier,
Mackinnon,	Robinson (Northumberland),
Harwood,	Wilson,
Amendment (Mr. Borden, Halifax) negatived.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I did not notice the absence of the hon. member for Onmberland (Mr. Logan), and as I am paired with him, I ask to withdraw my vote.


Mr. CALVERT.: The hon. member for Queen's and Shelburne has not voted.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am paired with the hon. the leader of the opposition, or otherwise I would have voted against the amendment.



Mr. CHARLES MARCIL (Bonaventure).: I wish to call the attention of the Postmaster General to a matter which is of sufficient importance to the Canadian public to merit the attention of this House for a few moments. During the last few days hon.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: members of this House will have noticed that the corridors have been flooded and covered up with an immense number of mail bags containing campaign literature.
I would not object to that, if it did not interfere with the ordinary postal service of the country, but I am informed on reliable authority that the distribution of this matter through the mails is seriously interfering with our postal service. The post office of the House and the post office in the city are glutted with this matter ; the railway postal cars are over-laden and, what is more -serious still, newspaper publishers in Montreal have been unable to obtain mail bags in which their papers are sent to the post office for distribution to subscribers, the supply of mail bags having been 'cornered.' This is a serious state of affairs, and I would ask the Postmaster General if any complaint has come to him from newspaper publishers, or from any other citizens ?*


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh.


Mr. WALTER SCOTT (West Assiniboia).: It occurs to me, Sir, that this is no laughing matter at all. Several days ago I sent some correspondence through the mail to my home at Regina, and I received word last evening that it had never been delivered. I am informed that this has been caused by the congestion in the mail service throughout Canada, as a result of the flooding of the mails with tons, and car-loads, and cargoes of campaign literature, franked through this House, and samples of which we have seen for some days piled up in the corridors and incommoding the members generally. If the privilege that is given to members of this House to frank mail matter is to be so flagrantly abused, it sterns to me that an amendment to the existing regulations has become imperative. It is rumoured also that one reason for the length of this session is to be found in the fact that the opposition have prolonged it purposely in order that they may have an opportunity of franking these car-loads of campaign literature during the session.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh.


Thomas Walter Scott: This is not a laughing matter either, and the taxpayers of Canada will not consider it a laughing matter. One hon. gentleman on the other side of the House calculated that it costs no less than $28 a minute to keep the session of parliament going. When the taxpayers of Canada realize that it costs so much tio keep this House in session, week after week and month after month, simply to allow the opposition to frank their campaign literature, these taxpayers will not consider it a laughing matter. We have evidence, day after day, of the purpose of gentlemen opposite to uselessly keep the House in session. It is true that such -questions as the fast Atlantic service and provincial autonomy for

the North-west Territories are questions of real importance ; but is it not a fact that for the three months, from the first of May to the end of July, our friends on the other side were simply marking time by pretending to criticise the estimates. Ever since I was a boy I have heard the members of an opposition described as being the watchdogs of the treasury ; but surely never were there watch-dogs who could satisfy the appetite of contention propensities with such small bones as the members of this opposition were picking here for three months this summer. They took one whole night discussing, hour after hour, the matter of soft pork ; for hours on another occasion they devoted their whole time to discussing the price of two wheel-barrows, and on a third occasion they gave us their views for an entire evening on an alleged exorbitant charge of 25 cents in the cost of an axe. These may be matters of interest, but we have the Public Accounts Committee for the special purpose of, considering such questions, and surely it is not meet to keep an august body, such as this House, in session week after week and month after month, discussing such picayune things. I repeat that this is no laughing matter to me, and 1 believe that the people of the country will not consider it a laughing matter. My hon. friend (Mr. Marcil, Bonaven-ture) has acted very properly in drawing the attention of the Postmaster General to the subject. X understand that the system followed by the Postal Department is that, as a matter of courtesy, the newspaper offices are allowed a certain number of these bags, which are the property of the Crown. They are taken to the office of publication and there utilized for the ordinary circulation of the newspaper. It seems that a newspapers publisher in Montreal, who is engaged in the laudable work of printing and publishing these tons and car-loads of campaign literature, has taken illegitimate advantage of the courtesy which is extended to newspaper publishers, and through their connivance this literature is sent in the bags to the members of the opposition here for the purpose of being franked, and we see it stacked around the corridors, and glutting the i:>ost office here and glutting the post office in the city. This is done to the detriment of other newspaper publishers who are deprived of the use of these bags which they need in their ordinary business. I trust that the Postmaster General will do his duty in this matter, and if it becomes necessary, that he shall confiscate, these bags and their contents and allow each newspaper publisher to receive his fair proportion of them.


Mr. W. McCREARY (Selkirk).: As a sample of the inconvenience to which the general public are put, I may state that the Winnipeg newspapers-the ' Free Press,' the ' Tribune ' and the ' Telegram '-which should have been here two or three days
ago, have not yet reached Ottawa. I made inquiry as to the cause of this, and I was informed that they had left Winnipeg all right, but they had failed to reach here on account of this undue over-crowding of the mail service of the country. The files have had to be put away without these copies of the Winnipeg papers, and members from the west find it a great inconvenience now, as it will be a great deprivation in the future when they have to consult these files. I trust that the Postmaster General will do something to remedy this.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Sir William Mulock).: Complaint has been made to the department that certain newspaper publishers are not able to get their proportionate supply of these bags, because of the great numbers of them which are otherwise in use. I may explain to the House that for the convenience of the newspaper publishers it is the practice to allow them to have in their possession a number of these mail bags so as to enable them to forward their newspapers to the post offices in a convenient form. In that way, newspaper publishers of Canada are convenienced in the transmission of their papers to their ordinary subscribers. It appears that one leading publisher in the city of Montreal has improperly used these bags and diverted them to a purpose for which they were never intended. He has done that to the inconvenience of his fellow-publishers, and to the detriment of the rights of the public in general. The department is to-day unable to supply other publishers with bags for the transaction of their legitimate business.


Mr. CLARKE.: How many bags has this Montreal publisher used in this way ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Thousands, I should say. My attention was called to the matter to-day by my officers, and I am informed that the deputy minister has been endeavouring to obtain possession of some of these bags. The publishers of ' La Presse' of Montreal cannot be supplied with bags.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: Are they sending out literature too ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not know what they are doing. They are engaged in the publication of a public journal, and they have their rights as well as other' publishers. My hon. friends have asked for information, and I am giving it. This question has been brought to the attention of the department in the ordinary course of business. Yesterday the supply of bags available at Montreal was exhausted, and one publisher could not get a single bag because of the absorption of the supply by hundreds and thousands, I expect by the one publisher in question, who has diverted those bags from the'proper use for which they were entrusted to him to this illegiti-

mate and scandalous transaction. If the hon. gentlemen who control these hags would be good enough to remove their contents and let us have the bags, then the business of the post office could be carried on. But I am not prepared to go to thousands of dollars of expense to purchase additional bags-even the making of them would involve a considerable time-simply to enable a procedure of this kind to be carried out, It does seem to me that a very grave abuse has been made of the privileges of parliament in this procedure. I doubt if parliament ever intended that tons and tons and carloads and trainloads of printed matter should be printed in different places in this country and sent post free to the city of Ottawa, to a member of parliament, under the provisions of the Act which allows such matter to come free; and that this same privilege should be so abused in the method which is mow being adopted. To-day the postmaster of the city of Ottawa has made a complaint to the department that he is unable to carry on the legitimate work of his office owing to the congestion of the building by the accumulations of mail matter there-this literature, as it is called, which has been dumped there in carloads every day. Moreover, the difficulty cannot be removed by any addition to the staff at the Ottawa post office or at the House of Commons post office. The cars have not the capacity to carry away this stuff. The postal cars are of limited capacity, and we have been filling them to accommodate lion, gentlemen opposite.


Samuel Hughes: Could not some of the private government cars be used ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: And yet in spite of every effort that is being made, the accumulation is gaining upon us, and the public service is being prejudiced.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Mountains of information.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Whatever may be in it, I do not know. I am told that hon. gentlemen themselves made a very excellent use of a large portion of this literature, having for some reason consigned it to the flames. I do not know whether the balance is intended to be so used; but perhaps it is about as good a use as it could be put to. On that I offer no opinion. Speaking from a party standpoint, I regret what has been destroyed, because the more freely it could be circulated the better it would be for the Liberal party, Speaking departmentally, which is the only way in which I speak now, I would say that hon. gentlemen opposite are as much concerned as the government in the proper management of the postal service, and I think it is inconsiderate on their part to deluge the service with this immense quantity of mail matter, which is treated as all other mail matter without any partiality. Every letter that goes through the post office


Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.: receives the same treatment, without priority; and this literature, which everybody knows is of no very great importance, is for the time being inconveniencing the officers in the carrying on of the legitimate work of the post office, which is, so directly concerned with the convenience of the public generally.


Mr. INGRAM.: I infer from the remarks of the hon. Postmaster General that the opposition is sending out this literature. I know that my county is flooded with the speeches of the hon. Minister of Finance, and I would like to know what channel they come through.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I have not heard anything about the speeches of the Finance Minister. I am now alluding to these enormous accumulations that are seen in the corridors and passages of this building, that have blocked the business of the post offices and the railway mail service of Canada. I am speaking of that literature, be it from one side of the House or the other. But this accumulation arises from the particular class of literature to which I have alluded, which has been despatched in postal bags to the whip of the opposition, to be redistributed by him throughout Canada. I want these bags, as the property of the Crown, to be forthwith returned to the Post Office Department. Unless they are delivered there, I shall have to exercise the authority of a Minister of the Crown and take possession of them. I beg to say, in all seriousness, that we are to-day without mail bags for the proper convenience of the subscribers to the press of this country. We have sufficient of that class of property, but it is unfortunately at this moment out of the control of the government. Enormous numbers of these bags are under the control of an hon. member of this House, and I ask him here to return those bags forthwith-


Samuel Hughes: Lay them on the Table ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Or I will take steps to take possession of them by force of law. We do not desire in the slightest degree to interfere with the use of the franking privilege.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: When does the hon. gentleman propose to take possession of them ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 1 am giving notice now. If I am asked to specify a time, I will do so. I will give the hon. gentleman to-day to deliver those bags to the proper officers, and if they are not delivered by Monday morning, I will take steps to take possession of them.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Don't get mad.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am not at all. I propose to try to protect the crown in its own rights, and in doing that

to protect the citizens of the country in their legitimate rights. I maintain that the public of Canada are not called upon to submit to the inconvenience and the injury to which they are now subject because of this gross violation of the privileges of parliament. When a member of this House finds himself in possession of mail bags which are marked the property of the crown, the property of the Post Office Department, it is his duty at the earliest moment to return them to the government to whom they belong; and when they come to him illegitimately, as they did in this case, that duty is a much more pressing one on his part. It was a gross violation of the privilege granted to the publisher of that newspaper to divert these bags from the purpose for which they were entrusted to him; and it is my intention not to allow that same publisher any more to be entrusted with bags until guarantees are given that they will not be diverted from the use to which they ought properly to be put.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. the Postmaster General has given us an exhibition which is hardly becoming his dignity and hardly worthy of the office he fills. He has spoken of that illegitimate' and scandalous use of bags.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Illegal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it illegal or improper to do what the law provides may be done ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: What does the law provide may be done ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It provides that any matter may be sent free to any member of this House during the session of parliament, and any matter, franked by any member, shall go out free, whether it goes out in single papers or by the bag full.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Would the hon. gentleman contend that it is legal for a publisher, who had possession of these bags, to make use of them in the way he is doing ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The law provides that publishers of newspapers shall have the right to send here mail matter, and by regulation of the department, for the sake of convenience, bags are furnished for that purpose.	_


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: They were not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And he is not using them improperly or illegally.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He Is.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Mail matter going out of the post office franked by any member of this parliament, whether it goes out in single papers or by the dozen, or in mail bags,
is going out in accordance with the law and is neither illegal nor scandalous. The members of the opposition are exercising their undoubted right in sending the matter through this post office, when franked as the law provides. That is all they are doing. Reference is made to the fact that in the corridors large piles of these bags are found, may they not as well be found there as in the Public Works Department, or some of the other departments, where civil servants, who are paid by the country, are employed to address and mail them ? I am informed that such is the case.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: There is not one iota of foundation for that statement. Not one bag nor one-lialf a bag lias been sent out from the Public Works Department nor has any employee of that department been engaged in any such work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. gentleman deny that there are not employees in some of the departments sending out these speeches ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot speak, any more than can the hon. gentleman, for other parts of the city. He mentioned the Public Works Department in particular, and I say here, in the presence of everybody, that not one bag nor one-half bag, nor any literature, has been mailed from that department, and no employee connected with that department lias been engaged on any such work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was credibly informed


Some hon. MEMBERS: Take it back.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was creditably informed that such was the case, but of course I accept most unreservedly the denial of the hon. minister. I was told that in some of the departments this is being done, and the Department of Public Works was mentioned as one of them. However, whether they come from that department or not, we know for a fact that speeches of the leader of the government and the Minister of Finance and others were sent out by the thousands, franked by members of parliament. They are not sent through the post office in this building, and therefore are not to be found in the corridors, but they are sent out from elsewhere, and I think improperly, because they should go from this post office, if franked, which, I am told, they are. They should be sent from here, but they are not at present ; and the only difference is that in the one case you see the matter in these corridors and in the other you do not. I am told that while the Postmaster General says that these bags are being sent out by the thousand, there were only all told 140 bags in the corridors.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do net know whether there are more than 140 bags

there at the one time, hut I am told that there are large quantities in store at Ottawa waiting until this great mass in the corridors is removed, and then they will be set in their places. They are coming up in wagon loads at all hours of the day. The accumulation may be only 140 at this moment, but I expect that thousands of them have been taken away.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is not a member of this House who would believe for one moment that these bags reached the number of one thousand.


Thomas Walter Scott: There are several thousands.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) should be the last man in the world to object to the distribution of knowledge, because I do not know of anybody who needs, it more. And hon. members should remember that the country requires information to-day more than anything else. Are these hon. gentlemen afraid to let their light shine before the world and their deeds be known ? It is because they dare not let what is taking place in this House be made known throughout the country, that they object to this so strenuously. The hon. gentleman has said that this thing has tended to lengthen the session a month. That is not the case. What has lengthened the session ? Why, the government business has not been down until quite lately. We have been in session over seven months and the government has not got its work all down yet. Only a few nights ago the last supplementary estimates came down and we were told that there are more coming down with regard to the Quebec bridge. When did the railway subsidies come down ? Only a few days ago. Supplementaries containing over $10,000,000 only came down the last two weeks, yet forsooth the opposition are to be held responsible for the length of the session. Surely the hon. gentleman could not expect the country to take any stock in such a statement. The hon. gentleman spoke of what the increased length of the session cost the country. It does not cost the country a dollar more. An amount is voted for the session and whether the session be long or short, it practically makes very little difference. It Is the poor members of parliament who have to suffer.


Mr. BELCOURT.: What about employees who are paid by the day 1


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They are paid a very small sum.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: Does that not increase the cost of the session ?


Samuel Hughes: Is it true or not that the Postmaster General pays these men $25 a month at the post office for stamping and sending out that literature ?


William Mulock: 


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: There is no man in the service of the Post Office Department who is paid so small a sum as $25 per month.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Eecess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When you left the Chair at six o'clock, Mr. Speaker, we were dealing with the question which was raised by the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) with regard to what he was pleased to call, and what the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) afterwards termed, a scandalous and illegitimate use of the Post Office Department. No more ill-advised words could be spoken by a minister of the Crown. As members of parliament, we are here to do the work of the country, and what we are doing is within our undoubted right. The law provides that mail matter shall be sent free from this House to any portion of the country, when it is franked by a member of parliament and put in the custody of the Post Office Department. That done, the department is bound to take care of it until it is either delivered to the party to whom it is addressed or returned to the party from whom it is sent. In view of this, the statement made by the Postmaster General as to what he would do or would not do seemed to me rather unbecoming. I am glad that the Postmaster General, who was absent when I began to speak, is now present. I hope he is in better humour than he seemed to be before six o'clock. It was said-I think, by Mark Twain-that if you fill an Englishman up with roast beef and porter you may even venture to approach him with a subscription list. I hope that now that the Postmaster General has had a good dinner he has come here in a less belligerent and more amiable mood than he seemed to be in before recess.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am always amiable.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And I hope he has forgotten the threat he made that if, by Monday morning these bags are not away, he would do so and so. Any attempt on his part to carry out that threat might be attended with serious consequences. In the first place it might obstruct the corridors of the House -of Commons.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am afraid it would.
Mr. SPROULE-because, as members of parliament we have certain rights. The government is bound to provide us with conveniences for doing the work of the people which we have been sent here to do. That was our stuff that is in those bags, and it has been duly franked and put in possession of the Post Office Department.

1423a


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is not franked yet.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes a good portion of it is franked and is there waiting for the Postmaster General's Department to take it away. But, because the kon. gentleman has not provided enough assistance in the office, it cannot he taken away. But it has been handed over to his department.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, it has not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is there to be taken away. Well, if the hon. gentleman's threat is carried out, what would be the result V These corridors would be blocked. We have not enough room. We have not the luxurious apartments of the Postmaster General and his friends taking up practically one-third of the room of the House of Commons. We have a little 7x9 room for our accommodation. Lazarus like, we are trying to subsist on the crumbs that drop from the rich man's table. If the Postmaster General should endeavour to carry out his threat, I have no doubt there would be insistence. There is too much of the Anglo-Saxon domination in this part of the country to allow that threat to be carried out without some effort to prevent it. Every man who is a man stands up for his rights. It is said that even a worm will turn if you tread upon it. Perhaps the Postmaster General feels that he can turn to his friend the Minister of Militia, and get the militia turned out to support him. But let me remind him that that would involve heavy expense which the city would have to pay, and they would hold him to serious account for it. It would hardly increase his popularity. So, I think that after serious consideration he will hardly carry out that threat. At any rate, we hope he will not.
One of the hon. members on the other side said that we had destroyed a lot of literature. We did dstroy a lot of literature- we are free to admit it. And why did we destroy it ? Because, through some mistake, the figures were wrongly given, and to put those figures before the people would have been to mislead them. So, we destroyed that literature, every sheet of it. Would the Postmaster General desire that it should be sent out to mislead the people and give them a wrong impression. We thought it more honourable, more manly to destroy it.


Thomas Walter Scott: Are there no mistatements in what is going out ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We believe not.


Thomas Walter Scott: The hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Heyd) pointed out-


Thomas Simpson Sproule: To the best of our knowledge and belief, the statements made in the literature now going out are correct. But we would not send out literature containing errors which we knew to be errors. Now,
I	say that, as members of parliament, we have a right to send out this literature. It is now the property of the parties to whom the different pieces are addressed. It is franked and addressed and in the possession of the Post Office Department, and the Post Office Department is bound to deliver it or return it to us. Why is not that literature sent away ? We are told, when we endeavour to get it away, that the Post Office Department has not a sufficient number of hands to do the work, and the Postmaster General will not allow them to engage more.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is not true.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I believe it is absolutely true.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Then the hon. gentleman believes something that is absolutely untrue. The staff of the department is ample. The trouble is that the cars are not sufficient and the train accommodation is over-taxed. It would take train after train to carry the stuff. Hon. gentlemen opposite have been sending away carloads every day.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am only telling the hon. gentleman what is told us.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) often rises and says that he is credibly informed so and so. Just before six o'clock he said that he was informed something about the Public Works Department which turned out to be absolutely untrue. Yet he said he was * credibly informed.' Now, he is ' credibly informed.' Will he give me the name of his informant ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is a handsome request on the part of the Postmaster General. I wonder that he is not ashamed to ask it. Would he want to penalize one of his own employees because of a statement made by him that there were not enough hands in the Post Office Department ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Will! the hon. gentleman name his informant 7


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I made a statement which I believed to be true, and where I am known I will match my reputation for veracity against that of the Postmaster General any day. I do not come here and make statements that I do not believe to be correct, and I deny the right of the Postmaster General to contradict me. I made the statement on the authority of the chief whip (Mr. Taylor) who sits beside me, made to me fifteen minutes before. So, was not I justified in repeating that statement ? I have a character to maintain, and I will not allow any man to call my veracity in question even though he be called the Postmaster General.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am within my rights.
II	made a statement before six o'clock, that

I was gredibly informed that certain material was being sent through the mails from the Public Works Department. I have made inquiries since, and I find that the stuff is being sent out, but that I happened to be wrong about the department from which it was going. It is being sent out in large quantities, and I am told that it is being addressed by the civil servants who are paid by the country. On the other hand, we are paying for this work out of our own scanty means, and we are working night and day to send out this literature to the country. We are doing only what it is our right and our duty to do, and, instead of being abused, we ought to be commended for it. We are doing what is strictly within our legal right. But what did hon. gentlemen opposite do in this matter of abusing the franking privilege. Sir Richard Cartwright sent out, I was told, about a ton of matter. It was sent out between sessions. It was not in any sense an official document of this parliament, but a speech made on the public platform, printed here and sent out under the frank of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, sent out improperly, wrongfully, illegally. On the other hand, we are doing what the law gives us a perfect right to do, and no more. It is true we were mislead by the government. We began to send this literature out because we were mislead into believing that an election was coming on.


Mr. FRASER.: Now we have it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is the right of the opposition to try to enlighten the people of the country. Are hon. gentlemen opposite afraid that the people will be too much enlightened, that the record of the government will be placed too plainly before the people. When we began to send out this literature the government got scared and backed out, and now we are told they are not going to the country. It is said that we liavte lengthened1 the session, adding greatly to the cost. Is that the ease ? What does the hon. gentleman know about it who made that statement ? Is it not the fact that we are here practically by the job -we get $1,500 for the session, whether that session last thirty days, or nine months, or a year. We get no more and no less ; it entails no additional charge on the country. The Speaker of the House gets' the same salary whether the session is two months or twelve months; so do the Clerk and the Assistant Clerk and the other officials. Who gets what additional cost is imposed on the country by the increased length of the session ? A few of these little pages, the messengers and the sessional clerks and writers, who are paid by tbe day, these poor people who are dependent upon their daily labour for their subsistence, and the government begrudges them even the few days of additional work they get by reason of the increased length of the session. The page hoys get $1.50 a day, and the government Mr. SPROULE.
would rather cut them off from that ; the same thing applies to the messengers and the sessional writers. The allegation of increased cost is entirely incorrect and misleading. I said before and I say again that we should be rather commended for our industry. We are engaged in an onerous, arduous, honest and faithful work ; we are distributing the records of parliament, which should be always acceptable, and no men should be more pleased to find them distributed to the electors of the country, who must after a while give their verdict, than the hon. gentlemen opposite. Is that an improper or a wrong work or one for which the opposition should be abused ? I say it is not, and I only ask that the government 8110111(1 give us as an opposition fair-play. We are only exercising the rights to which we are entitled by virtue of our position as representatives of the people. We are doing no injustice to the government in exercising these rights. If they do not provide accommodation for us to do our work in any other place than the corridors of this building, we must do it in the corridors, and if the mail bags of the country will not hold these papers we will have to empty them In the corridors, because they must be handled by the Post Office Department whether the government likes it or not; that belongs to the people. It is unfair to blame the opposition for doing no more than what they are sent to do by the country and the stigma is cast on the electors rather than on the representatives. I can tell the Postmaster General and his colleagues that when the time comes the people will resent that stigma, and that they will have to settle with the people and uqt with us for the tirade of abuse they have heaped on us because we have endeavoured to enlighten the people on matters on which it is our duty to enlighten them.


Mr.  R. G. MACPIIERSON@Burrard: I do not think I can be charged with taking up much of the time of this House. As a representative of the west, a man who lives 3,000 miles from here, I protest at the way in which the business of the House is being kept back by people who certainly should know better. One hon. gentleman has sat in this House for five and twenty years; during this session I have sat in the House every day except three, and I have never heard any little question of business discussed that the hon. gentleman did not enlarge upon it. There is not a member in this House who took up as much time as the hon. gentleman.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the hon. gentleman talks only about what be knows, it is no wonder he does not talk much.


Mr. MACPHERSON.: I do not think it is right or fair that we who live a long distance from here and have other things to look after should be kept here to hear the empty vapourings of people who want

to air their views in which no one is interested. As far as I am concerned, I am prepared to sit here as long as any good is being done, but I cannot see how any good is being done in a case of this kind. A statement was made a few minutes before six o'clock that there _are 140 bags in the corridor. To my personal knowledge there are 735 bags around this House, all full of this literature. I do not object to this literature, but I do say that it is an abuse of the franking system. Perhaps, as a young member, I should not say that kind of thing, but I do not think the law was intended to cover a case of this kind, whether the literature is sent out either by the government or by the opposition. These bags average 90 pounds each, and if the postage on their contents was paid by the men who should pay for it out of their own pockets, It would cost $2,940 to pay for what is now being franked. I am told that for the last 40 days an average of 150 bags a day, filled with this literature, have gone out. That is some 6,000 bags, and taking five bushels to the bag, we have '30,000 bushels, and with 1,000 bushels to the carload we have 30 carloads of literature which have been sent out from here at the expense of the people of this country. I have heard hon. gentlemen denounce in unmeasured terms the small salaries paid to railway clerks and employees. I quite agree that the railway clerks should be well paid, for I know many railway clerks who have to go into a car piled to the ceiling with this literature; they are expected to do work in that car and are paid' a small salary fordoing it. Members should pay for the literature which they send out; if I have literature to send out, I will pay for it myself, and every man should do the same thing. The franking privilege is meant to extend only to the ordinary courtesy of sending parliamentary papers to constituents.


Mr. N. BOYD (Macdonald).: We have heard a good deal about the mail bags, and now we have had a lesson from what I might call one of the wind-bags.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Order.


Nathaniel Boyd: I take it back, but I must say that when the hon. gentleman or any other new member of this House undertakes to belittle the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) he undertakes something that neither he nor any other man can do in this country. That hon. gentleman had a reputation in this House long before the hon. gentleman who has just spoken was ever heard of, and he will have a reputation after many who are now criticising 'him will have passed out of the public eye. Returning to the question, I understand that under the Act we have a right to send any parcel up to four pounds and the Post Office Department is bound to accept it and take care of it. We have not in any way exceeded the rights which we
possess. If any one wishes to dispute what I am about to say, let it be submitted to the Committtee on Privileges and Elections or any other committee and see if we cannot prove that for every day almost of this session, or at least since literature commenced to be sent out, the Liberals have sent out from 25 to 50 bags. All of this has been stamped, and in every way the Liberals have been taking advantage of their rights; yet now, when our literature is being held back because we are not able to get it out on account of their literature, the lion. Postmaster General, forsooth, is going to take the bags and distribute them. We will wait until we see him. The Liberals have sent out a much larger quantity of literature than have the Conservatives. 250,000 copies of the Premier's speech on the transcontinental railway have been sent broadcast through this country, bearing the franks of hon. gentlemen opposite. We are sending out the speeches of our deader and of the hon. gentleman whom our friends opposite admired and still admire, the hon. ex-Minister of Railways and canals, so that the people of the country may have that side of the question also. Then, in addition to the speeches that are being sent out from Ottawa, I understand that the Montreal ' Herald ' is having some hundreds of thousands of the speeches of the hon. gentlemen distributed amongst other Liberal papers through the country and inclosed as a supplement, thereby taking advantage of the mails in order to distribute these speeches among the people.
Do we hear the bon. Postmaster General arising and finding fault with that ? No, not at all. These are things to be investigated, and while they are emptying the bags we will be there to see. Hon. gentlemen talk about a lengthy session, forsooth. We have had a session the like of which has never been known in the history of this country. Hon. gentlemen opposite have voted away more millions than has ever been voted away in any session in days gone by. It is hard to believe that it would be possible for men in their sound senses to think of voting away $120,000,000 for a railway. Then we have had a railway Bill that took up two months of the session, followed by a Redistribution Bill, some of these important measures being brought down three months after ^he House met. The House was called together months after it should have assembled. It was not called together until March 12 thus subjecting to inconvenience every man coming from the outlying districts of this country. If the government did not know that, they should have known it. They have taken advantage of the members of this House in bringing them here at the time they did, yet we 'hear hon. gentlemen getting up and making the statements that we have listened to to-day. The Conservative party will be prepared to justify before the public

-every action they have taken. Hon. gentlemen opposite may bring on the election to-morrow or the next day or the week after, and we will be prepared to go on any platform and before any public audience in this country and discuss every question, and we will also be round when they are emptying the mail bags.


Mr. JAMBS CLANCY (Bothwell).: 
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am not aware that I have said to any hon. gentleman that he was not at liberty to exercise the franking privilege. Parliament leaves it to each hon. gentleman to exercise the franking privilege in accordance with the true spirit of the Act. That is not the real subject under discussion. The question came up as to the shortage of mail bags for the press, and I stated that the reason of the shortage was that the courtesy of the department had been disregarded by a leading paper, which had received a certain quantity of bags for the proper use of the publisher, but which bad been improperly used. I say that again. I say that we have allowed this newspaper, bags for the purpose of inclosing their own papers to be sent to the post office for transmission amongst their subscribers, and that the publisher has abused that privilege, because, instead of using the bags for that purpose, be has diverted them to this other purpose, withdrawn them from circulation and thus interfered with the right of co-publishers, making it impossible for the department to supply bags to other publishers of papers for the purpose of distributing their papers. The use of bags for the purpose to which Mr. BOYD.
these have been put is contrary to the purpose for which they were loaned. These bags belong to the department, and unless they are returned the department will take steps to repossess itself of them.


James Clancy: We have heard the explanation of the hon. gentleman. This little piece of theatricals has all been over a few mail bags.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Thousands of them.


James Clancy: What kind of facilities is the hon. gentleman giving this country, when he has only a few mail bags ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The best it ever had ; far better than the Tories gave it.


James Clancy: He is telling us that they have a few mail bags.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Thousands.


James Clancy: He says a thousand.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I say thousands.


James Clancy: I venture to say that the hon. gentleman is again wide of the mark. Even if it is 2,000, it does not affect the question. 1 ask the hon. gentleman if he, as Postmaster General, and his department are not bound to furnish all the facilities necessary to carry the mail matter from any newspaper office in this country that may be legitimate mail matter ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No ; there is nothing whatever in the law compelling us to take mail matter from the publishers. We carry it from the post office when it is delivered there.


James Clancy: That is what the hon. gentleman is doing now. The hon. gentleman knows very well that the franking privilege does not belong to the members of this House alone. During the session of parliament it belongs to every elector in Canada. He may send his mail matter within the limits prescribed by the regulations of the department to this House. What has been done by this publisher ? He has complied literally with the law. He has not violated a single particle of the law, and he has done this for the convenience of the Post Office Department. Is the hon. gentleman going to confess that he has run out of a few mail bags ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Thousands.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman has run out of thousands ?


Edward Cochrane: No, he has not.


James Clancy: The country will know that the hon. gentleman's department is

well equipped. If he is not prepared to cope with the Montreal ' Herald ' and to carry the speeches of the right hon. First Minister and of the hon. Minister of Finance-all properly within the law, and no person is complaining of it-because he has a number of mail bags distributed over the country, the people of the country will understand how well equipped the hon. gentleman's department is. If these few mail bags are not returned to him, he says there will be a fuss over it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Call in the police.


James Clancy: My hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) says call in the police. I think the police might very well be called in to take charge of the hon. Postmaster General. I tell the hon. gentleman he has no more right to empty those mail bags than any other person has, and I do not think the hon. gentleman will undertake to empty them, notwithstanding his threat. The hon. gentleman is greatly disturbed over a few mail bags. Does "the hon. gentleman know that two or three years ago in the Department of Agriculture the stamp of the hon. Minister of Agriculture- was used improperly and illegally for the purpose of sending out literature ? Does the hon. gentleman know that when some one stated that between
2,000	and 3,000 copies of the speech the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) had delivered at Massey Hall had been sent out, that the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce stated himself that it was more nearly 10,000 copies ? Yet this was done right under the eye of the Postmaster General, and with his sanction and connivance the law was violated.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is wholly without foundation.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman had better not make that statement, or I will take occasion before this House adjourns to produce the frank of the hon. minister of whom I have mentioned.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman said, that with my knowledge and contrivance-my knowledge and connivance


Samuel Hughes: And contrivance too.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman said that with my knowledge and connivance the Minister of Trade and Commerce had transmitted large numbers of copies of his speech at Massey Hall through the post office. I do not know what the Minister of Trade and Commerce may have done; he will answer for himself; but I do know that no minister has ever, with my knowledge or connivance violated the franking privilege.


James Clancy: I am glad that the Postmaster General made that qualification, and
has found a means of escape. I will take his word for it, as I am bound to do; but I want to ask if the Postmaster General was not a little less vigilant in that case than in this. Did those who are now complaining call his attention to that matter ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Not a bit of it ?


James Clancy: Not a bit of it. Will the Postmaster General be a little fair now. What is there wrong in this ? Who has violated any law; who has violated even good taste, if it be a matter of taste ? I want to tell the Postmaster General that it is not costing the country a dollar.


Tjie POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes, it
is.


James Clancy: The taxpayers are not paying one cent extra for this. The Postmaster General has not increased his staff in the post office here; there has not been an additional employee brought into the service, and therefore it has cost the people nothing. The Postmaster General knows perfectly well that a rush of matter like this passing through the mails temporarily, costs the country nothing. Therefore it costs the people of Canada not one farthing for the distribution of that literature. Where is the complaint then ? Is the Postmaster General or the leader of the House going to Intercept that knowledge which is going to the country ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Knowledge ?


James Clancy: Yes; knowledge on a great question is being sent out broadcast, and this is the first time in the history of Canada that any one has been told they are sending out worthless literature, when they are sending out the literature of which these gentlemen opposite themselves are guilty. The hon. gentleman cannot silence public opinion or public sentiment. Neither can he intervene, and shake out this mail matter from the mail bags into the corridors. If he does, his employees will have to pick it up again and send it to the people. The House has never witnessed such a scene as we have witnessed this afternoon. I hope the Postmaster General will profit by the exhibition he made here.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Don't have any such hope.


James Clancy: He gave us an exhibition of bad taste and bad temper.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It was an abuse of the privileges of the House.


James Clancy: My hon. friend says it is an abuse of the privileges of the House, and I say it is not becoming to the dignity of a minister, who only a few nights ago told us how well his department was managed, to now come down and announce that Canada has run short of mail bags, and that he

cannot possibly furnish mail bags to a great newspaper in this country. Let me tell him that it is the duty of a Postmaster General, whether he be Liberal or Conservative, to meet the demands for distributing such literature, whether he may agree with it or not. If the Postmaster General is short of mail bags lne bad better get more. An apology is due from him at this moment; an apology is due from him, that with all the resources at bis disposal, he is not able to meet the requirements of the mail service of the country, and I trust that be and his friends will not again precipitate such a scene in a hurry.


Samuel Hughes: The members on this side of the House were watching the countenance of the Postmaster General for an hour or two before be broke loose. We could not understande what was the m utter with him.


Edward Frederick Clarke: He was incubating.


Samuel Hughes: Possibly he was. The whole House was admiring the genial countenance of the Prime Minister, but the Postmaster General looked dumb; there was something weighing him down, and at last we discovered what it was. He told us in his speech, that we were using thousands of mail bags, that it was scandalous, that it was an abuse of the privileges of the House, and then he stated that it would take a special train to carry these circulars up and down the country. Let me tell the Postmaster General, that these circulars were put into those mail bags for the convenience of his officers, and in doing so we were conferring a favour on this country, and doing work which his officials should have done. Not only was that done in the office of publication, but they were mailed as they had a perfect right to be mailed, to a member of this House, and that member was quite within his rights when he remailed them. He could have dumped them into the post office.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He could not get them in.


Samuel Hughes: Yes, he could have piled these mountains of information up in the post office, and the Postmaster General dare not attempt to stop him. It was to relieve the hard worked and poorly paid post office officials of this country, that the Liberal-Conservative party went to the trouble of putting this mail matter into sacks. But the Postmaster General finds that this scheme to supplant the Prime Minister will not work. He finds that there is not going to be an election, in order that lie may have a possible opportunity of becoming Prime Minister of the Dominion of Canada. We have noticed it in him on the street; we have noticed it in him in the * House, and we noticed it especially this' afternoon. He has shown dissatisfaction l


James Clancy: with things around him, and it is easy for us to conjecture what the cause of it all is. Now, he seeks to make a little cheap popularity in the country by attacking the Conservative party, and stating that his mail cars are overcrowded. If he is run out of mail cars, why does he not turn out two or three of the minister's private cars, and use them as mail cars ? If be has no postal cars why doesn't he take the government private cars and put his officers in them to distribute this mail, and enlighten the people of the Dominion ?


Edward Cochrane: Sifton's car is not doing anything now.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Oh, yes it is.


Samuel Hughes: The Postmaster General complains of these mail bags being seen in the corridor. I want to tell him that the Liberal-Conservative party does not go at night to a back street office in the town, and take the Postmaster General's frank, or the frank of his deputy, and ship circulars without their going through the regular post office here. What the Liberal-Conservative party does is done in the broad light of day; right in the House of Commons and the people of the Dominion of Canada can see what is going on, and we are not ashamed of what we are doing. The Postmaster General says that he has no mail bags ? Where have they gone ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Several hundred of them are here now ?


Edward Cochrane: You got down from the thousands.


Samuel Hughes: 
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Not half enough.


Samuel Hughes: Well, here are some more : 230 bags at $1.05 ; 150 bags at $1. That is more than we have in the corridors now. Then I find:	cotton duck
pouches ; 140 at 30 cents, 477 at 30 cents, 114 at 25 cents. Cotton duck bags fitted with swivel, 18 at 35 cents ; cutting down jute sacks, 04 at 25 cents ; drag sacks, 6 at 95 cents ; 7,500 at 80 cents. Where have they all gone ? 4 at 85 cents ; 1 at 80 cents; 190 at 45 cents. Red striped linen bags : 48 at $1.65. 150 at $1.30, 24 at $1.25, 150 at $1.25, 150 at $1.15. 100 at $1.10. These are all from the Auditor General's Report for 1902, page S-11. If I had the report for
OCTjOBEB 17, 1903
this year, I am sure I could pile up a mountain of them. Then, here are yellow hags.
X suppose these are for the twelfth of July.
I wonder if the grand master saw any of them his way.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I must thank him very kindly.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That shows how considerate I was. Are there any green ones ?


Samuel Hughes: I suppose the Postmaster General handles all kinds ; it does not make any difference what colour they are. Here are 150 at 40 cents, 100 at 25 cents, 24 at $1.16. Then I find an item : C. Warner, Ottawa, repairing cotton duck bags, 338 at 42 cents ; fitting with bars and ring, 452 at 5 cents ; repairing jute newspaper sacks, 801 at 41 cents ; fitting with cords, cases and ferrules, 481 at 0 cents. These must be some of the old patched bags which he is giving the Tory party. Then, here is a firm called' William Willis & Son, Aurora. It strikes me that Aurora is a little north of Toronto.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: In North York, a fine place.


Samuel Hughes: In North York, which the Hon. Postmaster General represents. I find these items for William. Willis & Son, Aurora : brown duck satchels, 25 at $1.80, 200 at $1.80, cotton duck folders, 73 at 45 cents, repairing mail bags, 6,732 at 25 cents, seamless cotton bags, 300 at 38 cents, 100 at 35 cents, 50 at 33 cents. I see also this item : T. H. Winter, Aurora, extra trips with mail bags between railway station and post office, 242 trips, which this gentleman made to the railway station carrying these mail bags to be' sent all over the country, and he charges 25 cents a trip. And yet the Postmaster General has the hardihood to stand up here and say that he is short of mail bags. I was surprised today to see the hon. member for Bon a venture (Mr. Marcil) get up when the Postmaster General turned his head around as if he had touched a button. You talk about the independence of parliament. Where was the independent spirit of that hon. gentleman when he would let any minister touch a button as a signal for him to get up and make an attack on the people, as he did today ? And where was the independence of the wild and woolly west, when the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) arose when the Postmaster General touched the button to say that a letter had been delayed. We all knew that the Postmaster General was possessed of a tyrannical spirit when he broke loose, but I hardly thought he could go the length he has done to day. I tell him that the hon. gentleman who put this matter in the mail bags did a service to the Post Office Department, and if he dares to take these mail bags, he and his 446


REVISED
[Stage Direction]
officials will have their work cut out for them in a different manner from what he expects. He may exercise his right to seize these mail bags; he may be within his authority if he does so.
Some hon. MEMBERS: No, no. '


Samuel Hughes: Whether he is within his authority or not, he will not dare to do it. The hon. gentleman has made such an exhibition of himself to-day that it will take a lot of smiling and cajoling to put him in the estimation of this House and the country where he stood before.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
House of Commons-further amount required for sessional clerks, $2,330.
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: This item is required on account of the length of the session. It provides for the payment of the sessional clerks to the 20th of this month. These estimates were prepared some time ago, when it was expected that this session would be over by that date.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has any consideration been given to the representations that have been made to Mr. Speaker respecting increased remuneration for some of these men ? Are they being paid at the same rate, or is any increase being given to them ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No. The sessional clerks are divided into three classes : one class at $3 a day, another at $3.50, and those who know shorthand and typewriting, at $4.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: How does the number compare with the number formerly employed ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It is just the same-25.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any provision in this item for any extra pay for messengers and the officials about the doors ? Are they to receive any additional remuneration besides their per diem allowance ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The longer the session, the better for them, because they are paid by the day and will receive more money.


Samuel Hughes: Might I ask your consideration, Mr. Speaker, to the suggestion I dropped the other evening, to the effect that the members of the press gallery should be placed on the list of sessional clerks. Of course there are a few of the reporting staff who obtain more or less extra remuneration by reporting for the committees, but that is arduous work, and I am satisfied that they are entitled to all they earn in that way and that the country would endorse the action of Mr. Speaker, and the House in placing these gentlemen on the sessional staff. They do a great deal of work for the members and in this way save the increase of the sessional staff.


EDITION
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I have not had time to consider the matter very fully, hut I find on inquiry from the officers of the House that no such remuneration [DOT]was ever given in the past.


Samuel Hughes: Would it not be a very good precedent to lay down ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It is a very important question and 1 would not like to offer an opinion just now. We would be paying persons who are not at all under the control of the House.


Samuel Hughes: They would be then.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I presume that the members of the press gallery would prefer to be absolutely free as they are to-day.
Debates-amanuenses. $560.


John Graham Haggart: What is that for ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The amanuenses are the young men who do the type writing for the reporters of the debates.


John Graham Haggart: Are the debates not reported under contract ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No, the debates reporters are officers of the House. The contract system was given up some twenty years ago.
Sessional messengers, $2,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many have we ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Forty-nine.


Samuel Hughes: Are they paid by the day ?	.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Yes.
Ottawa public buildings-further amount required for Victoria Memorial Museum and other buildings, $100,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am asking a general vote in view of the fact that last session in the main estimates there were some votes for two or three public buildings at Ottawa. I have not had a satisfactory plan made out yet; hut if we had this vote, we might during recess be able to make more satisfactory arrangements for the acquisition of sites.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The intention is to go on with the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.	'


John Graham Haggart: Has the boil, minister any idea where it is to be located ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No definite arrangement has been made. If I were to express myself favourable to one site as against another, it would be very difficult for me to obtain satisfactory prices.


John Graham Haggart: I do not know whether it was this building which was meant, but I understood from the Finance Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
Minister that it was impossible to locate it on government property, but there was some adjoining property which could he had. He did not wish to say where it was because the price might be raised.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is one of the matters under consideration. I shall have a further survey made to see whether or not the architect was mistaken. I am now having a survey of the property made. We may have to buy the adjoining property.


John Graham Haggart: This system of voting the money without knowing the site is not the one which is followed in England. In this country the ministers contend that if it be known they intend purchasing property in any particular locality, they will have to pay two or three times as much for it; but, after all we are entitled to know where the site is before voting the money, and the government have always the power to expropriate and have a fair valuation made. It seems very odd to vote large sums without knowing where the money is to be expended.


Mr. BIRKETT.: I hope that this vote will meet with the approval of both sides. There is hardly a member of this House who has not, either by word or act, expressed his opinou that it is necessary we should have additional accommodation for our public buildings. I think that the hon. minister of Public Works is perfectly justified in asking for this amount in the way he has done. To have asked for a more definite vote would jeopardize whatever chance he may have for the purchase of a site at a reasonable price. There are two or three different sites in the city, which the owners would be very willing to sell, and for my part I would be perfectly satisfied to leave the matter in the hand of the minister, being convinced that he has the interests of the government and the department at heart and will choose the site best suited for the building. I hope that the vote will pass without further opposition.


Samuel Hughes: Is this for the geological building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Samuel Hughes: I may congratulate the minister. It is pretty nearly time Canada bad a better Geological Museum and building generally. If he will proceed immediately with the purchase of the site and next year, if he should happen to be in office, go on with the immediate construction of the building, the House and the country will heartily endorse his action.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: What progress is being made for the establishment of a mint?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The plans are being prepared and the question now is to obtain a site.

Public works-chargeable to income-public "buildings, Quebec, Que., hospital for treatment Of immigrants suffering from trachoma and kindred diseases, $12,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Representations were made some time ago that this building was necessary. On further consideration the matter was allowed to stand. Again the request was renewed, and it has been urged as a matter of great public interest. It has been reported that some of the immigrants are troubled with this disease, and there is danger that it will spread throughout the country.


Mr. FOWLER.: Does not the hon. minister think it would be preferable to ship these immigrants back to their own country ? It seems to me a very singular thing that we should be obliged to establish a hospital for immigrants coming into the country, to cure them of this disease. It is a most unheard of proposition, to my mind a most scandalous proposition. I am surprised that the Minister of Public Works should bring in an estimate of this sort.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We are pretty well accustomed now to my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) using very extravagant language.


George William Fowler: I am afraid I learned it from the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock).


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman is learning pretty fast apparently, for a new member. I have no doubt my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) and others will understand the need for this building better than I do. It is for the purpose of ascertaining whether these immigrants have this disease. I understand from the medical officer that there is no way known to medical science to learn whether this disease is present without a careful examination. Some have been passed as free from this disease and have entered the country when they could not be sent back, though they actually had trachoma, and their being at large endangered the health of others.


George William Fowler: It says that the building is for the treatment of these immigrants, not for examination.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If my hon. friend knows all about it he can hardly need my explanation.


Adam Carr Bell: They are there on probation?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, and it may be-though I did not I confess, ask as to that point-that, in case they have the disease to some slight extent, they may be treated and cured. But the explanation given to me by the officers was that the object was to make a test of these immigrants.
446}


Edward Cochrane: How do the American officials find out whether immigrants have this disease or not ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Under the same system, I am informed; but I have no personal knowledge.


Edward Cochrane: I understand that the American official at that port examines immigrants and excludes those suffering from disease.


The PRIME MINISTER.: They have a house of their own in Quebec.


George William Fowler: If the explanation of the Minister of Public Works is correct, he is unfortunate in the choice of words in this estimate. It does not say a word about examining the immigrants to see if they are suffering from this disease, but it says ' hospital for treatment of immigrants suffering from trachoma and kindred diseases.'


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I suppose the officials of the department are responsible for the wording, and it may not convey just the idea that the officials of the immigration branch of the Interior Department conveyed to me. I have not made the detailed inquiries, that, perhaps, I should have made, but I am sure they represented to me that the first and great object was to ascertain whether the immigrants have the disease or not.


The PRIME MINISTER.: As I belong to Quebec, and am more familiar than is my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) with the circumstances, I may give some explanation. This building has been made necessary in consequence of a state of facts which we discovered last year. It was found by the medical experts that we had in Quebec some of these immigrants coming from some part of Europe, who, though suffering from this disease had escaped detection at Grosse Isle. At Quebec they were suspected of suffering from trachoma and were detained at St. Rochs, where there is quite a congested population. At one time we had the house visited and found twelve patients. There was great danger of this disease contaminating the neighbourhood. It was too important a matter to be neglected, and we thought it would be better to have a house properly fitted, so that these sick people could be isolated, and the community protected from infection.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the minister to say that it was the intention to put up a building so that these people might be separated from the others until they can be sent back. This is a contagious disease, there is no doubt; and, while some cases are curable, the great majority are not curable. I frankly confess that I think the course proposed is the proper one to take. These people cannot be isolated too soon,

because you intensify the evil by allowing the disease to spread.
Quebec military buildings-new iron foundry (revote). $4,800.
The MINISTER OB' PUBLIC WORKS. This amount was voted, but lapsed at the end of the fiscal year, the accounts not being in and ready for payment. I am asking for this revote so that the accounts may be paid. The same applies to the next item, which is for the new artillery workshop, $3,000.


Adam Carr Bell: Are these buildings completed 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think there is some more work to do in fitting them up.
Public buildings. Nova Scotia-Springhill public building, repairs, $7,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is necessary on account of the unfortunate accident by which the man who was responsible for it and one of his comrades were killed. The building was damaged and the heating apparatus wrecked.


George William Fowler: What was the cause of the accident ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The man who was in charge was killed. The expert sent down to investigate reported that though everything was blown up, he found that two large valves which should have been opened were left closed, and the steam being unable to escape, had caused an explosion.
Public buildings, generally-immigrant buildings, $12,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This has been applied for by the Department of the Interior, and it is said that the need of these buildings is urgent. One of them was so urgent that we have undertaken to go on with the work. This is to be provided where the Barr colony is settled. A number of immigrants have come in late and have not provided themselves with housing for the winter. It is proposed to put up a temporary building to shelter them.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The utmost care should be taken and no expenditure spared to prevent any mishap occurring to these people this winter, because if there should be any mishap to them, no matter how improvident 'they may be, there would be' a stream of misrepresentation against Canada in the spring.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I quite recognize this, but the departments in these matters always want things done in a hurry and want a great deal of money, so that some one has to keep the brakes on. I have kept the vote as small as possible, but I recognize the truth of what the hon.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: gentleman has said that even if there is some waste of money it would not do to have these people suffer.
Ville Marie wharf-Lake Temiscamingue, repairs, renewals, &c., $2,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The government have a small wharf at this place. There is quite a large settlement there, and the amount of trade growing up in that district is simply wonderful. I did not believe it myself until a deputation came down here and explained it to me. This is being done in order to enlarge the wharf so as to accommodate this growing trade.
Windsor harbour-sheer dams, training dykes and deepening River Avon (revote of lapsed amount), $700.


George William Fowler: Are these all the votes that are to be taken for public works in Nova Scotia ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All that I know of.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I have received a letter to-day asking for a permanent light at Bass river. The hon. Minister of Finance will know that there is at this point an important manufacturing concern headed by Messrs. Fulton. They are 15 or 20 miles from the railway, yet with the assistance of the summer shipping in the Bay of Fundy and by hauling to the station in winter, they are conducting a successful business in the manufacture of furniture, which is sent all over New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Although they have encountered many difficulties, such as fire, difficulties that would have discouraged most people, they have persevered and are doing a good deal of shipping on the Bay of Fundy. You built a wharf there a year or two ago, but Mr. Edward Fulton, who is a leading man in our county-unfortunately he is a Liberal, but in every other way he is a most distinguished man-writes me and complains that it is very difficult for the steamers to get into the wharf and that he has, in fact, to hold a lantern on the wharf in order to enable them to make it. They have to load the steamer whenever it can get in with the tide. Mr. Fulton thinks that $300 or $400 would be sufficient to put a permanent light there, which would enable the steamer to get in with less difficulty.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Does the hon. gentleman say that this Liberal wants to hold a light up to them ?


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I do not wish to introduce any politics in the matter; Mr. Fulton is a very capable man, notwithstanding his politics, and a very good man. I would ask the hon. Minister of Public Works to see that in some way this accommodation is furnished.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Of course, it is too late to put anything in these

estimates. I know Mr. Fulton, the gentleman to whom my bon. friend (Mr. Gour-ley) has referred, and 1 know that his industry is an important one, but whether or not this light should be provided by the department is a matter which my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works will have to ascertain.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What good is your harbour if the steamer cannot get into it on the tides? It cannot get in at regular hours.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I think they need some light in Colchester county.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It takes such a trifle to provide a light of this kind that the government could take out a sufficient amount from the vote for lighthouses without having a special vote. .


The PRIME MINISTER.: The Minister of Finance has given a good reason; they want light in Colchester county; that is enough.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend is right. I shall have to have a report made, and I will be glad to have this during the next week. There is a general vote out of which this light can be erected.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions- steam service between Petit de Grat and the Intercolonial Railway terminus at Mulgrave, S3,000.


George William Fowler: Explain this please.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is an item for the purpose of establishing a service which will be a very important feeder to the Intercolonial Railway. It is to develop the fishing business of the eastern part of Nova Scotia, which has already been the subject of discussion on one or two occasions in this House. It is to develop the business of sending fresh fish from the eastern portion of Nova Scotia to the upper provinces and even to the western states. It is an important and growing business and It has given considerable traffic to the Intercolonial Railway already. This is for an extension of the steamship service in connection with this business. I have no doubt this will give a large amount of extra business to the Intercolonial Railway.


George William Fowler: What steamer is going to be on this route ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not know as that point has not been decided yet.


John Graham Haggart: Surely we must have some finality as to subsidies. If we are going to subsidize steamers to carry trade to the Intercolonial, I think it is carrying the principle of subsidies to an absurd length.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am sure there is no subsidy that we have voted for generations which is better entitled to consideration than this one. We have had discussions in this House as to the importance of developing this fresh fish industry and perhaps we could take no step which would more directly aid that industry than by making connections between the central fishing communities and the railway terminus at Mulgrave. There is a large fishing industry at Cape Canso, which has given a great deal of business to the Intercolonial Railway. This is to bring a similar traffic from Cape Breton and I feel quite sure that there is no money that we will spend that is more likely to develop business than this subsidy.


Adam Carr Bell: Where is Petit de Grat ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is in Richmond county, on the island Madame.


George William Fowler: How large a place is it ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is a \ scattered fishing district. It is a community that has given a great deal of attention to the fresh fish business. The fresh fish business requires a very special organization. Where you have the ordinary fishing business, where the people cure their own fish that can be done in a small way, but if you establish a fresh fish business it needs a considerable amount of capital and organization. This subsidy is for the purpose of aiding a steamer to be put on the route for the purpose of gathering the fish and shipping it.


Adam Carr Bell: There are two steamers now plying in that vicinity. One of them runs from Canso to Arichat and the other one through the St. Lennox passage to St. Peters. I imagine one of them must pass Petit de Grat. I cannot at the moment recollect where Petit de Grat is. I think, though, that the steamer running through the St. Lennox passage must pass near to it.


Mr. KENDALL.: This is on the other side of the island.


Adam Carr Bell: The Canso boat calls at Arichat.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Canso boat is so fully occupied that she cannot perform this service.


Mr. KENDALL  .@: This business began seven or eight years ago, and the first year there was received by the Intercolonial Railway from the business furnished by the industry at Canso, between $4,000 and $5,000. During last year the Intercolonial Railway received $27,000 from this business, and from one firm in Canso. There are other firms, and we expect that before long the Intercolonial Railway will have from [DOT] $75,000 to $100,000 of revenue from the transportation of fish from the Atlantic coast.


John Graham Haggart: How much will come from Petit de Grat ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: It is more than probable that within five years a far larger revenue will be derived from that place than is derived from the Canso business at the present time.


Mr. COPP.: This is a very good thing and I heartily concur in it. I believe that the only way you can gather fish for shipment to the western market is by steamer. I am going to ask the hon. Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) to go farther than he has gone. The same business is being developed in St. Mary's bay ports and in the Bay of Fundy. Fresh fish is being collected and taken to St. John for shipment over the Intercolonial Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway to Montreal. We have a boat there now which has managed to keep going as well as it can but it has not been working to advantage. It is, however, an immense accommodation to the fishermen, and while I would not ask the hon. minister for anything this session, I am in hopes that this experiment will prove so successful that next session he will be able to give a subsidy for a small boat to run from St. Mary's bay ports and the Bay of Fundy to St. John.


George William Fowler: Will anybody put on a special steamer for this purpose ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This vote is taken in the hope of inducing some parties to put on an extra boat, but no arrangement has as yet been made.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are there fishermen who own steamers available for this purpose ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, the arrangement will have to be made with the people who are in the steamship business.
Miscellaneous-to pay Wm. Perkins for extra copies of evidence in connection with the Lisgar election petition, $80.36.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is this for ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The Order in Council providing for copies of evidence taken at election trials makes provision for the payment of ten cents a folio for the first copy and three cents a folio for each additional copy. In this particular instance there was no copy required by the judges and the only copy taken was the copy furnished to Mr. Speaker. The Auditor General in construing the Order in Council came to the conclusion that Mr. Perkins was only entitled to three cents a folio. Strictly speaking that is correct. We have amended the Order in Council so as to make provision that if the stenographer is only required to make one copy he is entitled to ten cents a folio. In view of the fact that this' work was done before the Order in Council was passed, it is necessary to get parliamentary authority to pay this sum.


John Graham Haggart: How does it come that the Dominion ought to pay any sum at all for election trials ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Election courts are federal courts. All the expenditure at the trial of an election petition in connection with an election to the Dominion parliament is under our control, and we are absolutely responsible for it. The question was formerly raised in the case of Valin vs. Langlois, as to whether judges of the provincial courts can try election cases and the point was finally decided by the Privy Council to the effect that judges of the provincial courts sitting for the purpose of trying federal cases are federal judges.


John Graham Haggart: Surely they would make the orders and rules sufficiently binding to provide themselves with a copv of the petition.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is not to provide for a copy of the petition. This is for a copy of the evidence taken at the trial. The stenographer took the notes of the evidence for which he was paid, but when the notes are extended, provision is made that they shall be paid for at so much per folio for each copy made. In this case the judge did not deem it necessary for the purpose of preparing their judgment to have the notes extended but it was necessary for the return to have a copy of the evidence sent here and it is for the copy of the evidence furnished to Mr. Speaker that we are asking for this vote.
Further amount required for printing Dominion notes. $30,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Hon. gentlemen have expressed the wish, that the notes should be as clean as possible, and as the circulation is increasing rapidly we find it necessary to come to the House and ask for this increased amount.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you take up the old' note ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: As rapidly as the bank sends us in old notes, we replace them with new ones ; it costs us a little more but I am sure the House will appreciate it.
To pay Lady Lafontaine a pension at the rate' of $1,800 per annum from January 1, 1903, $2,700.


The PRIME MINISTER.: This vote is required to pay a pension to the widow of Sir Louis Hippolyte Lafontaine. whose memory is revered in Canada. Sir Louis Lafontaine died in 1863. leaving a widow who was his second wife. When she married Sir Louis Lafontaine'. she was the' widow of an officer who had served in the garrison of Montreal. She was a Mrs. Kimpton ; her family name being Morrison. Lady Lafontaine was left, not in affluence, but in fairly comfortable circumstances ; and through reverses, she has been unfor-


Arthur Samuel Kendall: tuniately reduced, to a state of absolute penury- Lady Lafontaine is now 82 years of age, and I am sure everybody will agree that this is the right thing to do.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Carried.
Expenses in connection with the conversion of the public debt. Payments may he made to members of the civil service, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service or Superannuation Acts. $5,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We have very large sums of old debts maturing this year, and to provide for their payment, and to make arrangements for replacing them with new loans so far as may be necessary, will involve some considerable negotiation in London, and probably several visits to that centre of the money market of the world. The deputy minister has been in England for some considerable time ; he has left to return home, but no doubt it will be necessary later on for some one to go there again. A considerable part of this item will be necessary for travelling expenses. The balance is in order to make provision for a change in the Finance Department, which I can hardly say I desire to make, but which I will be obliged, to make. The deputy minister, who has occupied his position with great satisfaction to all parties for many years, has expressed a desire to retire, and I am making arrangements to supply his place. At the same time, in view of the very large financial operations which are to be undertaken during the current year and for the next year or two, I am anxious that we should retain Mr. Courtney's services in an advisory capacity. I deem it wise that we should have some such officer, and I shall have to take a portion of this money to apply it to the payment of Mr. Courtney in addition to the superannuation he would be entitled to receive. It is a mere temporary arrangement for a year or two, so that we may have the benefit of his services during this period when so much financing has to be done. Mr. Courtney is now on the ocean, and as it is a matter of arrangement with him I am not able to say how much we will pay him.


John Graham Haggart: The law provides that you can take a superannuated officer back into the service at the same salary which he had when he retired ; you will not pay him more than that.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not expect we will allow him that much. We would not wish to recall Mr. Courtney back into the service to dischaige the duties of a deputy ; we do not want two deputies. He wishes to be relieved of the ordinary labour and responsibility of the department, but we want to retain him in an advisory capacity with regard to this special business and of course he will be valuable in instructing the new deputy minister on coming into
office. The idea is to give Mr. Courtney something supplementary to his superannuation, for a year or two years.


John Graham Haggart: This does not relieve him from the responsibility of having his accounts audited by the Auditor General;
I think he got into some trouble with the Auditor General about his travelling expenses.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That trouble was based upon a difficulty which arose in the time of my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Haggart) when exactly a similar case occurred, and we followed the precedent.


John Graham Haggart: There are some precedents you should avoid.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Auditor General, who above all things wishes to be consistent, thought that as he objected to a similar case under the administration of my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Haggart), he ought to do likewise in our case.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the aggregate of the sums falling due this year ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 
Adam Carr Bell: The amount is stated to be $33,512,000.	,


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes; that is correct.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has the Minister of Finance any unused borrowing powers ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We have the standing power to renew existing loans.
Department of Secretary of State-to provide for three additional junior second-class clerkships, $2,100.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Two of these are now extra clerks, and it is pro*

posed to put them on the permanent list. The work was largely increased in the department owing to the Naturalization Act. The Secretary of State has pointed out to me. that while the expenditure in 1893 was $50,160, the present expenditure is $48,560, which shows a substantial reduction. At the same time, the revenue has increased from $12,400 to $52,000.


John Graham Haggart: If you promote these two clerks, you should strike out the vote for fheir salaries from the ordinary expenditure.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: These extra clerks will be included in the contingencies, whieh have already been voted. It must be the intention that these items should not be used for the extra clerks.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why do you not strike it out of the other vote ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It has been already voted-, and this item, is necessary in order to make these gentlemen permanent.
Department of Justice-to increase the salaries of A. Power, K.C., and G. L. B. Fraser, K.C., by $200 each, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $400.


John Graham Haggart: Is this their annual increase ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: No. These two gentlemen are both first-class clerks in the department. One has been there since 1874 and the other since 1879. They are now in receipt of salaries in excess of the statutory allowance. Each is receiving $2,600, and it is proposed to give them each $2,800. They are both very competent officials, and this is to give them some recognition for the valuable services they render.
To increase the salary of Miss M. Quain to $500, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $100.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Miss Quain is a stenographer. She gets a salary of $400, and is entitled to an annual increase of only $30. The result is that she says she will not remain at that salary. She is a very competent person, and I find that to retain competent officials you must pay them.
To increase \he salary of A. J. McGillivray, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $50.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: He is from the maritime provinces. He has been in the department, I think, since 1890, and has never been put on the permanent list. He gives great satisfaction. Two first-class clerks have left the department and I am not going to replace them now, and I think Mr. McGillivray is entitled to this increase. He now gets $700.
To provide for employment of Thomas Morris as temporary clerk at $600, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $600.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: In what we call the docket office we had a first-class clerk in Mr. Blakadar, who died some time ago. Mr. Morris is a man who is over age to come under the Civil Service Act, but he had a long experience in a lawyer's office in town and came to me highly recommended. He is a man of considerable attainments as a managing clerk, and is just the sort of man I wanted.
Office of the Auditor General-to promote B. W. Sherwood. W. Tucker, S. S. Allen and E. S. Johnston to the second class, $800, less $512.50 available from total sum included in main estimates. $287.50.


John Graham Haggart: Did these parties pass the civil service examination ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I think all the officials of the Auditor General have Mr. SPROULE.
passed the civil service examination. He has the right of promotion under the statute.


George William Fowler: I have no objection whatever to_ this vote, but I think there are other clerks in that office who should be included in this promotion. I have in mind one clerk in particular, who has performed very efficient and very faithful service-D. J. -Wagner. I would suggest that the minister make inquiry and find out why he has not been included in the promotion granted to his fellow clerks ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My hon. friend is invading the holy of holies. That is a privilege which I would not presume to exercise. The Auditor General has the right under the statute to promote the clerks of his department. I would not dare to question his judgment. He may be right or he may be wrong ; - but we must bow our heads submissive.


John Graham Haggart: Notwithstanding the opinion of the hon. Minister of Finance that the Auditor General has power under the statute to promote, I know that some of the predecessors of the Minister of Justice held that notwithstanding the statute you could not interfere with the prerogative of the Crown-that the appointment is with the government, and that they are responsible for it.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In view of my hon. friend's statement as a public man of long experience, and in view of the fact that he quotes the authority of eminent Ministers of Justice, perhaps we shall have to consider the matter and see whether we have not the right.


George William Fowler: I would suggest that a good opportunity for exercising that right would be the promotion of Mr. Wagner.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the Auditor General to intimate that he was short of hands in his department. The complaint was made at the time the report was got out. I think he stated in the Public Accounts Committee that if be had more hands he could get it out earlier. Has the Minister of Finance looked into that at all ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have heard complaints that his department is very cramped.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In that respect I think he has some cause for complaint. The whole Finance Department is very much cramped. The other ministers have been more energetic and have got mew buildings, but because of my modesty I have not succeeded in getting any.
Supreme Court-to .provide salary of E. R. A. Taschereau, $1,200.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is in connection with the revision of the statutes. The ex-Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was appointed chairman and he brought his .secretary with him. During his absence Mr. Taschereau, son of the Chief Justice, acted as secretary.


George William Fowler: The former secretary is not receiving any additional salary ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: No.
To assist L. W. -Coutllee in publication of digest of judgments of Supreme Court of Canada, $500.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Mr. Coutlee is one of the reporters of the Supreme Court. He has taken upon himself the publication of a rather valuable work, and the practice has been to give assistance to those who publish books of that sort.
Further amount required for miscellaneous expenditure including North-west Territories, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: In the main estimates we have asked for $37,000, and this will make the total $42,000. The expenses there have grown enormously in the last ten years. The number of criminal cases tried has increased from 353 in 1891 to 3,296. The fees for juries and witnesses have increased from $3,240 to $11,000. It will be soon time to consider whether or not we could not place the administration of criminal justice under control of the local authorities. By the Act we have made provision to hand over to them the administration of civil justice.


George William Fowler: Give them provincial autonomy.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: They will soon be ready for that.
To provide salary for an additional judge of the Supreme Court of the North-west Territories, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: In the territories we are responsible entirely for the administration of justice, and the business has increased enormously. We have had demands from all over the territories, especially from the Macleod district, for additional judges. It was suggested that we should appoint two, but I made inquiry and found that one would be quite sufficient.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Wbo is going to fill the position, and where will he be stationed ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I have really never thought of that. In the amendments to the North-west Territoiries Act we are giving to the local assembly the division of the districts and the arrangements of the works.
To provide salary for a junior judge of the district of Nipissing, Ont., $2,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is one of the cases In which the Ontario legislature provide for the appointment. After making inquiries, I found that the district is a growing one and that one judge, even if he did not do much more than travel around, would have very little time to try the cases.


George William Fowler: It seems an anomaly that this parliament -could not have the fixing of the district and the number of judges when we have to provide the salaries.


John Graham Haggart: The remedy is in our own hands. We need not give the salary. The reason for the appointment is that, under the Ontario statute, where there is a certain population in the district, they are entitled to a senior and junior judge. Does this come up to the population ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I am-assuming that the Ontario legislature has taken all these matters into account. I follow the principle laid down by the late Sir John A. Macdonald, and concurred in by the present Prime Minister, that the responsibility for the administration of civil justice is' with the province, and, if the province in the exercise of its authority says that it is necessary in the interest of litigants that a judge should be appointed for a certain place we-though, in the abstract we have the power-are not to interfere with the discretion on -the part of the province.


James Clancy: Can the hon. minister say what the limit of population is.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think it is 80,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: For 80,000 and over they might have a junior and senior judge, but for less than that only one.


James Clancy: Is this a junior judge ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.


James Clancy: This comprises more than the district of Nipissing ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: It is a group of constituencies.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The district, I think, is large enough.

1426a


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: And rather difficult for a judge to get about in, I should fancy.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the appointment is a proper one, as the district is large and an inconvenient one to cover. I was going to say, with regard to the other point, that the Ontario legislature some time ago, passed a law providing that where a district was below 80,000 it should be entitled to only one judge. That was when the Conservative party was in power at Ottawa, and it was said to be to prevent the appointment of more judges by that government. But when the Reform party came into power, the legislature repealed that law, and it is no longer in force.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I was under the impression that it still existed.
To raise the salary of the judge of the county court for district No. 7, Nova Scotia, to $3,000, $600.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The hon. member for King's (Mr. Fowler) will understand this item. Judge Dodd is the judge of district No. 7, Nova Scotia, which includes Sydney. It appears that the business at Sydney has increased enormously of recent years, and I find, on examination, that the amount of business done at Sydney is even very much greater than at Halifax, and the intention is to provide a salary equal to that paid at Halifax.
Mr. FOWLER, What constituencies does this district No. 7 include ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Victoria, Cape Breton and Richmond.


George William Fowler: The salary is the same as paid at St. John ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The same as paid at St. John, Halifax and Charlottetown.


Albert James Smith Copp: I do not object to the- judge of district No. 7 receiving an increase, but I believe very strongly that the other judges of the county court of Nova Scotia, should be increased also. The reason alleged for the increase is that a great deal more work is done in district No. 7 than, any other district. I do not wish to be understood as doubting the accuracy of that statement. But if the judge there performs more work, it is only within the last year or two. Up to the year 1900 he did not perform anything like the amount of work done in district No. 3, or district No. 5. This matter was brought up in the local legislature of Halifax, and I have here the record of the debate which took place at the time and the remarks of Hon. Mr. Pipes, who was the leader of the legislative council in that province. That record shows that Judge Morse, of district No. 5, performed nearly double the work done by Judge Dodd of district No. 7.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Would' the hon. gentleman (Mr. Copp) kindly give details ?


Albert James Smith Copp: District No. 5 includes the constituencies of Cumberland and Pictou. In 1900 the fees collected in Cumberland alone amounted to $365.85, or more than those of the whole district composed of Cape Breton, Victoria and Richmond, which amounted to $361.25. Besides this the-county of Pictou, which forms part ot district No. 5, collected fees to the amount of $224.80. This made a total for district No. 5 of $590.65, against $361.25 for district No. 7. Now. take the next district, district No. 4. We find that Judge Chipman, of that district performed nearly three times as much work as the judge of'district No. 7.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is, received three times as large fees ?


Albert James Smith Copp: Yes, that is the only guide we can have. The clerks of the county courts in Nova Scotia make a yearly return of the business done in their offices, and the debate to which I refer shows the figures given by these returns. In district No. 4 which includes the constituencies of Colchester, Hants and King's the fees were much larger than those of district No. 7. The fees in Colchester alone amounted to $439.50 or nearly $100 more than in the whole of district No. 7. In Hants, the fees were $233, and in King's $173. This made a total for the district of $846, against $361.25 for district No. 7. I am quoting from the figures given by Hon. Mr. Pipes who opposed this matter in the local legislature where it was discussed, but not in the form in which it now comes before us. It was proposed to divide district No. 7 and make one district of Cape Breton alone, leaving Richmond and Victoria to form a separate district, and to appoint a new judge. I think it is only fair to the other county court judges of Nova Scotia that I should read what Hon. Mr. Pipes had to say in reference to this very matter in 1901:
Hon. Mr. Pipes said a Bill had been before the Committee on Law and Amendments for some time to create an additional county clerk district. The committee was of the opinion that the necessity for this Bill had not been shown, and recommended that its further consideration, be deferred for three months. At the present time there were seven county court districts in the province. This Bill proposed to make eight. District No. 6 comprised the counties of Anti-gonish, Guysborough and Inverness.
And I wish to show that in the counties of Antigonish, Guysborough and Inverness the business was a great deal more than In district No. 7; the fees were $47&-in the-one, whereas they were $361 in district No. 7, or $100 more in district No. 6 than in district No. 7.
No. 7 comprised Cape Breton, Victoria and Richmond. The Bill proposed to make these two districts into three. If it passed the county


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
John Graham Haggart: What do they receive ?


Albert James Smith Copp: They receive $2,400.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is the same as in Ontario.


Albert James Smith Copp: The judges were appointed in 1870, and the salary was then fixed. The jurisdiction was also fixed at that time, but since then there has been a decided change in that respect. In 1880 the Speedy Trials Act was passed, which adds most materially to the duties of county court judges in Nova Scotia, owing to the fact that they have, under certain circumstances and for certain offences the power of trying criminal cases. Again, they are now masters of the Supreme Court, and they have large duties to perform as judges of probate. The old judges of probate in Nova Scotia have been done away with and these duties fall on the shoulders of the county court judges.


George William Fowler: Do they not get fees for this work ?


Albert James Smith Copp: No. Owing to these changes the duties of the county court judges of Nova Scotia have been more than doubled
since they were first appointed in 1876, but the salary has remained the same.


George William Fowler: What becomes of the-probate fees ?


Albert James Smith Copp: They go to the registrar of the court, who is paid by fees. In Nova Scotia they used to have a judge and registrar both, but now the duties are performed by the county court judges. I am quite sure that the duties performed by Judge Savary, one of the ablest judges in the province of Nova Scotia, an ornament to the bench, a man of high legal attainments, although his duties were not referred to by Mr. Pipes, must be equal to the duties of Judge Morse or Judge Chipman, and I am quite positive that they are- more onerous than the duties performed by the judge in district No. 7.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: How-many cases did be try last year?


Albert James Smith Copp: I do not know that, I have not the record. What I am asking is that this matter should be so dealt with that the cases of the other judges would also be considered by the minister. If this judge is entitled to an increase in salary, I say that Judge Morse in No. 5, Judge Chipman in No. 4, and Judge MeGillivray, who succeeded the late Judge Mclsaac in No. 0, should certainly have received larger salaries. The business in district No. 7 has not been anything like the business done by the other judges. While I do not object to this judge receiving an increase in his salary, I think it would be better if increases had been given to all the judges and not to this one alone. I have here the statistics up to 1900 of the amount of business done by the different judges. The minister states that the business of the judge for district No. 7 has increased, and that he performs more work than the judge of district No. 1. That may be true, but I would like to know what is the amount of business iu Halifax. I am very doubtful if the judge in Halifax does anything like the amount of business done in Colchester, Hants and King's. What we want to know is this : Is the judge of district No. 7 at the present time performing more duties than are the judges of the other county courts; I am very doubtful if he is; I am quite positive in my own mind that he is not. Take the probate business in the large county of Cumberland and Pictou. Take the business done as master of the Supreme Court; take the criminal business or the civil business done by the judge of district No. 5 in these two large counties, and I think you will find it largely exceeds the amount of business done by the county court judge in district No. 1. The mere fact that he is performing more work than the judge of district No. 1, the city of Halifax, is no guide for us that he should receive an increase in salary in preference to Judge

Morse, Judge Savary, Judge Chipman, and the other two judges to whom I have referred.


George William Fowler: How do the populations compare as between the different districts ?


Albert James Smith Copp: The population of district No. 7, including the counties of Cape Breton, Victoria and Richmond, is 73,246 ; district No. 5, including the counties of Cumberland and Pictou, 69,627 ; district No. 6, including the counties of Inverness, Guysborough and Antigonish, 56,290 ; district No. 3, including the counties of Digby, Yarmouth and Annapolis, 62,033 ,* district No. 4, including the counties of Colchester, King's and Hants, 66,893, showing that there is not much difference in population. To show that we cannot be guided altogether by population, I may say that the population of Halifax is 74,662, or nearly 10,000 more than the population of district No. 7. Mr. Pipes says that there is more business done in districts Nos. 4, 5 and 6 than in district No. 7. It is claimed that the duties of the judge of district No. 7 are largely increased. I want to say to the committee that the judge of district No. 7 is not performing more onerous duties than those which are performed by other judges, and it would appear to me to be only fair to the other judges that their salaries should be increased so as to bring them to the same level as that of the judge of district No.
7.	Hon. gentlemen know perfectly well that the judge of the county court does not do all the business of the county. To-day there are a large number of criminals in the jail at Sydney who are going to be tried by the Supreme Court and not by the county court judge.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Why should they be ?


Albert James Smith Copp: Because criminals can only be tried by the county judge who are actually in the custody of the sheriff, and then they have the right to elect. Therefore, the number of criminals to be tried cannot show us the extent of the business that is done by the county court judge. I think it would be well for the hon. minister to secure from the different county court clerks a statement of the amount of business performed in each district in Nova Scotia, and then he will have something reliable to go upon. It will be found that these other judges have been performing for the last twenty years double the amount of business that the judge of district No. 7 has been performing, for which they have not been paid extra, and still he has been receiving the same salary as they have. It does seem rather strange that he should receive an increase of salary and that the others should remain at the same salary.


George William Fowler: I think the hon. member for Digby (Mr. Copp) has made out such a strong case that the hon. Minister of Justice will move at once to strike out this
item. I do not see how he can defend the item after the argument which has been so ably made by the hon. member for Digby. I think he has proved that several judges of the county court are performing more onerous duties than those which are performed by the judge of district No. 7. I do not see why this judge should be distinguished from the others, nor do I see why he should receive more salary than the county court judges in New Brunswick. There are no junior judges there. Each judge has to perform the duties of the district to which he is appointed, and the same argument which the hon. member for Digby has applied in respect to the increased duties that are thrust upon these judges applies to the judges of New Brunswick as well. So that if the salary is increased in Nova Scotia it must be increased in New Brunswick. Until some uniform scale is adopted in respect to the judges of these provinces, I think it would be well to leave Judge Dodd at his old salary of $2,400.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hon. friend from Digby (Mr. Copp) has made out quite a strong case. He has been content to make reference to something that Mr. Pipes said in the Nova Scotia legislature in 1900, about statistics but that does not seem to be very conclusive because he discussed the amount of fees received by the clerks of the court. I have something a little better than that, and I think a little more conclusive. In Halifax the judge gets $3,000 a year. I find that in Halifax last year there were 35 speedy trials, 31 civil cases, and 87 applications in chambers disposed of, whereas, in Sydney, the speedy trials numbered 21, civil cases, 158, and chamber applications disposed of 354. So that, you will see that there is three or four times more work done in Sydney than in Halifax. I have not taken the trouble to make inquiry in respect to the other districts that my hon. friend has referred to, but this is a comparative statement between Halifax, which I thought was the most important judicial centre of Nova Scotia, and Sydney. My hon. friend must not imagine that Sydney has remained stationary. Sydney lias been increasing in population and importance and in the last few years, as busi-iness has increased, the judicial necessities of the place have also increased. I have given my hon. friend the result of the comparison between the two places showing that there is four times as much business done at Sydney as at Halifax.


George William Fowler: I do not know that that is a fair test to apply as to salary.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: If you start in and say it is fair to give a judge at Halifax $3,000 a year, surely you cannot dispute the correctness of the proposition that a judge who does four times the work is at least entitled to the same salary.


Albert James Smith Copp: 


George William Fowler: That may be true, but why should the judge at Halifax get more than the judges in the rural districts ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hon. friend must ask my predecessor that.


George William Fowler: Your predecessor is not here. If he were here my hon. friend would not be occupying that position. The judge of a rural district has to devote all his time to the performance of his judicial duties. He can do nothing else. He has no other way of earning a living, except by acting as judge. He does all the business that is brought before him, and he should be entitled to the same remuneration for all his time as a judge who does more business. It seems to me that if I were a county court judge I should prefer, even at the same salary, to be a judge in one of those districts in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; they have all they can do to keep themselves out of mischief, or perhaps I should say, idleness. Their duties are not very heavy on the bench, and I think there should be a uniform scale of remuneration for judges whether the judge lives in the city or in the country. It may be that his living expenses would be greater by living in a city like Halifax than in Sydney, and I say that with all respect to my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. Kendall). Sydney, I fancy, is not as expensive a place to live in as Halifax.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Much more so.


George William Fowler: Even if there should be a little more business in one place than another there should be no discrimination amongst the judges.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think that is right.


George William Fowler: I think the hon. minister will do well to strike out this item.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It will not prevent an increase to the other judges; on the contrary, the tendency always has been to level up the others, not to level down.


Albert James Smith Copp: Will the minister promise to look into the business done by the other judges ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I will not give any undertaking ; to depreciate one does not help the other.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Although I have listened to the criticism with a great deal of interest, I think the proper view is that we had better let this $600 be voted because it will form a reason for increasing the salaries of the other judges. There is no doubt that the salaries of the county court judges are more deserving to be raised than the salaries of Supreme Court judges in Nova Scotia. A man is not badly off with a salary of $4,000, and travelling expenses, to the extent of
$1,000, which practically means a salary of $4,800 or $5,000 a year. A county court judge in Nova Scotia does more work than most of the Supreme Court judges as a rule; and while $4,000 is a fair salary, with the addition of the circuit indemnity, the salary given to the county court judge is absolutely penurious. The salary of the Supreme Court judge will keep him in decency and enable him to show some moderate style of hospitality ; but a county court judge with a salary of $2,400, is required to maintain about the same social position, and while the one has a salary of $5,000 a year, the other has to skimp along with $2,400, and it becomes almost unendurable. I know Judge Dodd very well; he is a very capable man.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I believe he is one of the most competent judges we have.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: He is a capable man all round. He was a member of this House; he belongs to a distinguished judicial family in Nova Scotia ; his father was an eminent judge in our province, and I do not begrudge him his addition to his salary. Take the case of Judge Morse, at Amherst. He refused a Supreme Court judgeship some years ago. because he had a large establishment in Cumberland county requiring his personal attention and did not wish to leave Amherst. He Is a very eminent man in Nova Scotia, and to offer such a man $2,400 a year is an indignity. I say that the salary of the Nova Scotia county court judges ought to be raised, in preference to any other judicial salaries in Nova Scotia. I want to put myself on record on that score, because we have very capable men as county court judges. They were all good lawyers, enjoying a good practice, men of good ability ; men like Dodd and Morse, eminent men, far above the average lawyer we have in Nova Scotia.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is saying a good deal.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Yes it is. We have had quite a run of big fish down there. The breed is a little run out just now, but we hope to improve it. There is too much difference between the salary of a county-court judge at $2,400, and a Supreme Court judge at $5,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Do they not act as local judges of the Supreme Court ?


Seymour Eugene Gourley: 
Arthur Samuel Kendall: I am not of the legal profession, but I am able to say that during the last three or four years the work of Judge Dodd has been very onerous indeed. The population of the district over which he has jurisdiction is not 73,000, but probably 87,000. We have had come to us, amongst the great influx of population, a large element that gives rise to a considerable amount of legal work. To my knowledge, Judge Dodd spends the greater part [DOT]of his time discharging his duties, and no man of his attainments should be expected to work continuously as he does, for a salary of $2,400. I certainly think that $3,000 is little enough for the position that he occupies.


Albert James Smith Copp: I do not wish to be understood as being opposed to this increase of salary for Judge Dodd. I believe that he is entitled to it. But I contend that the county court judges should receive the same increase.


George William Fowler: When you are taking into [DOT]consideration the raising of the salaries of the Nova Scotia county court judges, you must not forget an equally able body of men: the county court judges of New Brunswick, who perform just as arduous duties as do their confreres in Nova Scotia.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The salaries of all the judges throughout Canada will have to be considered together.
Yukon law library, $2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There was money voted for this last year.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Like the poor, we always have these expenditures with us.
M. FOWLER. Who buys these books ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The request is sent by the judges, to the department. It is checked over by us, and the order is given over by the deputy minister.


George William Fowler: Do you have a central library at Dawson ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes. When a judicial district in a territory is first established we provide the law library until the Bar Association is formed to take it over. Last year the Regina law library was taken over by the Regina Law Association, which will he responsible for it in the future. When the cost of freight is added, these books cost a very large sum in the Yukon. The judges have no access to public libraries, and as the cases are of considerable importance, we must supply them with law books. I hope that next year the Yukon Bar will be sufficiently important to take over the library. Including this vote we have spent altogether about $12,000.


George William Fowler: Do the judges all reside at Dawson ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, the only other place at which they occasionally hold court is at White Horse.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is a large item coming year after year. It is doubtful if we use that much for the library here.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I ventured to suggest this year that we should send up the old editions of our text books which we have at the Supreme Court, where ws are constantly renewing our library by putting in new editions. With a few exceptions, the old editions are as good as the new. Often a man issues a new edition simply to sell it. My suggestion was protested against, but I have made up my mind that we .should do that.


Mr. LANCASTER.: How much has been spent altogether on this library ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This will make $12,000.
To pay the account ol the Prince Albert ' Advocate ' for announcing the proclamation and notice of the Saskatchewan election of 1900, notwithstanding anything in the Dominion Elections Act. $297.48.


Air. BLAIN.: Was the payment of this account not refused by the Auditor General ?
The PRIA1E A1INISTER. Yes.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The point was that it did not come within the schedule of services specially authorized ; but the view was taken that the exceptional circumstances justified the returning officer in publishing these notices.


Richard Blain: Will this complete the payment of all the election expenses of the election of 1900 ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, I think not. There hare been some items standing for some time which have been the subject of negotiation with the Auditor General.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: This seems an enormous sum of money for advertising the ordinary proclamation. In an ordinary city it costs only $15.


Air. OLIVER.: This item does not concern my constituency. Prince Albert is in tire constituency of Mr. Davis, the member for Saskatchewan, and I can merely tell the committee what he told me concerning this item when the supplementary estimates first came down. In order that the people may know the boundaries between the polling divisions, it is necessary that the proclamation setting forth the boundaries shall receive the fullest possible publication, because a man votes on residence, and is entitled to vote only in the polling division in which he resides. The population varying all the time by continual increase, ' the [DOT]boundaries are different from time to time.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: In the Prince Albert district there is a mixed population of French and English, and it was thought desirable by the returning officer that the proclamation setting forth the boundaries of the polling divisions should be printed in the newspaper in French and English. It was so done, and this is the bill. I believe the payment has been delayed some considerable time on the ground, I suppose, that the bill was large.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The proclamation would be only three or four inches in length ?


Frank Oliver: No, it sets forth every polling division. I do not know how many there were in Saskatchewan, but in Alberta there were over eighty.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is not the proclamation put up also ?


Frank Oliver: The law provides that the proclamation shall be posted up, but in Saskatchewan it was thought that was not sufficient and that it would be desirable to put it in the newspaper. The returning officer thought it was desirable to have the boundaries of the polling divisions printed in the newspapers.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I think the newspaper editor was kicking.


Frank Oliver: 
George William Fowler: Might I ask the hon. gentleman why this should be necessary in the Saskatchewan county and not in his own ?


Frank Oliver: I do not know that it was really more necessary in the one than in the other. It was just a matter of opinion on the part of the returning officer. He did not consider that the posting of the proclamation gave sufficiently accurate publicity, and he thought of supplementing it by this means. I may say that even in the district of Alberta, the posting of the proclamation is found rather insufficient, and for my own part, I publish the boundaries of the polling divisions in my own locality, but I do not publish the boundaries throughout the whole district. That would be altogether too much. But I considered that the posting of the proclamation was insufficient. I felt that there was the same lack of information as was felt in this case, and I published the actual boundaries in the few districts where my paper is circulated.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did you charge it to the government ?


Frank Oliver: No, I did not.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Is this a Tory paper ?


Frank Oliver: I could not say.


George William Fowler: Was there an amount similar to this paid in connection with the election of 1896 ? I would suppose that if this was necessary in 1900, it would be more necessary in 1896, because the population would naturally then be less conversant with the boundaries of the different municipalities and the different polling sub-divisions. We should have some information why it is necessary to pay this amount in that one particular constituency when no such neces-city exists anywhere else.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I have no personal knowledge of the matter and we will let the item stand until I can get information from the Secretary of State.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend lias said that as the population increases and becomes more established, the boundaries of the polling divisions will become better known. On the contrary, as the population increases the boundaries of the polling divisions have to be changed, and it is because of the continual changes from the increase of the population that it is desirable the fullest possible information should be given immediately before each election. It was for that reason I published the boundaries in my newspaper. The differences between the conditions in Alberta and Saskatchewan are these, Throughout Alberta there are a number of centres of settlements, each of which has its local paper. My paper, which is published in the north end of the constituency, does not circulate largely in the southern or central part. The papers published at Calgary have no large circulation at either end, and the southern papers have no large circulation at either the centre or the north ; but in the case of Prince Albert, that is the chief town of the Saskatchewan district, and the Prince Albert papers cover the whole district of the Saskatchewan. But the publisher of any paper in Alberta would not cover the whole district of Alberta.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Any one conversant with the Election Act must know that it gives no authority to the returning officer to do this. His duty is clearly set out, and the number of proclamations which shall he posted-three in each polling sub-division. These give all the information to which the voter is entitled, and it was a gratuitous act on the part of the returning officer to order this advertisement. I do not understand how the Attorney General allowed the item to pass. With regard to the charge, even though the publications were in French and English, $300 seems an exorbitant figure. I am afraid it was only a sop given some newspaper man, who perhaps either was a strong advocate of the member elected or one of these people who are

always desirous to get as much as possible out of an election.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No objection was taken by the Auditor General to the price, as not being fair and reasonable. The only objection he took was that the returning officer had no authority to do this. But after all lie was an officer of parliament and acted in good faith ; and, as the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) has explained, the posting of these publications does not give sufficient notice where so many new settlers are coming in, I am inclined to think that we should pass this item under the circumstance.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What the hon. minister has said would apply to every constituency in British Columbia, Manitoba and territories. They are all in a new country comparatively speaking, and the population is continually changing, but no returning officer, except in this constituency, has been so wanting in intelligence as not to keep within the law. It is just possible that between the returning officer and the proprietor of the paper, it was agreed that this advertisement should be put in on the chance of its being paid for.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I am not too particular about accounts, but I have a suspicion that this claim is a pure after-thought. This gentleman was a warm supporter of the hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis). They published this matter, probably, as campaign matter. I know I spend several hundred dollars for campaign work in my own constituency, and I neither know nor care what it is for.


Frank Oliver: Probably for the other fellow.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I cannot bother with these things. But I am a little more frank in these matters than most people are. I do not see any use in being a hypocrite. Every one who runs an election knows what is done. It seems to me that in this case this was simply campaign work done in the interest of the candidate by the party paper.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It could not be campaign work. It was not partisan material.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It is necessary in the interest of the candidate that there should be full knowledge on the part of the people of the constituency as to the boundaries of polling subdivisions, so that his voters may go to the right place.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Both parties would have the advantage of this advertisement.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I know. But I can easily conceive circumstances under which this would be excellent campaign work. I do not think it should be paid for. It was probably published for the bene-Mr. SPROULE.
fit of the party, and afterwards some ingenious fellow developed the idea of sending the account into the government to see if they could get it through. I would rather vote ?1,000 that this man had honestly earned, than vote ten cents for an unjust claim.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Let it stand.
Item allowed to stand.
To pay arrears of superannuation rilowanees to ex-lockmaster W. J. Casselman, Williamsburg canals, from January 1, 1902, to June 30, 1903, at $97.37 per annum, $146.05 ; to increased allowance for year ending June 30, 1904 to $296.63 at which sum it shall hereafter be paid, $97.37, total' $243.42.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is to correct an error in the superannuation. This gentleman had been a lockmaster and his services were dispensed with by bis superior. He was afterwards restored to duty, but not classed as a lockmaster. When superannuated later on, he was superannuated at a lower salary than that of a lock-master. On further Investigation, it was found that, in dispensing with his services, no Order in Council had been passed, and technically he had not ceased to be a lock-master, and so was entitled to superannuation on a lockmaster's salary.
Dominion lands-chargeable to income-further amount required for protection of timber and tree planting, $15,000.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Before I explain this item, I may say that I was asked by one of the hon. gentlemen on the other side a question with regard to the printing of maps. I have here the information about that. I am informed that with reference to the question In the House as to the purchase of maps by the Geological Survey, the usual course Is pursued by the Geological Survey of forwarding all requisitions to the King's Printer, and the maps are purchased by that officer. I understand they are all supplied in Canada, some having been bought from the Burland Company, others from Mortimer & Co., Ottawa, the Federal Press Company, and also the Toronto Lithographing Company.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: None from the United
States ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, we would not go to the United States.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose the prices are reasonable ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I have no reason to doubt It.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Were they produced in>
Canada or only purchased here ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I could not say. As to this item with regard to protection of timber and tree-planting, I was asked to give some information of what had

been done by the department this year. I find that 22 forest fire rangers were employed during the dry weather; eight in the railway belt in British Columbia, six in the North-west Territories, and eight in Manitoba. Also 8,790 fire notices on parchment were posted along the routes of travel warning the public against careless use of fire. In addition to this, over 5,000 circulars were distributed and a large number of copies of the Bush Fires Act of British Columbia, the Prairies Fires Ordinance of the North-west Territories, and the Fire Prevention Act of Manitoba have been circulated. Fire-guards at Banff and on the west side of the Turtle Mountain timber reserve have been constructed. The Long lake timber reserve has been explored and set aside, also the Yoho park and the Bocky Mountains park greatly enlarged. Since the adoption of the fire-ranging system we have practically lost no timber in the railway belt in British Columbia, notwithstanding two very dry seasons.
As to tree-planting on the plains, the officers of the department advise me that, in co-operation with the settlers, 918,000 seedling trees and 564 pounds of tree seed were planted. These were given free to farmers last year, the average of trees to each farmer being about 1,450. The report of the inspector is that about 80 per cent of the trees sent out that have gone through the winter are still living, and that about 90 per cent of last year's planting were living last fall. This spring 630 settlers received trees, and the number of new applicants for trees for next season is 1,649. We have set apart a reserve for tree-planting at Indian Head, and the vote is to provide also for that. There is increase!? work in guarding timber. This item will include additional fire rangers at forestry station at Indian Head and additional buildings.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The right hon. gentleman left the question of the maps unfinished. I would like to ask if the maps were printed in Canada. I am under the impression that they were printed in the United States, though I may be wrong. I understood the right hon. gentleman to say that some were supplied by the Burland Company. I take it that they would be lithographed in Canada. There were some also by an Ottawa firm.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Mortimer & Co. They are engravers and lithographers, and have done work for the government for many years. They have done work also for the Post Office Department, and are very reliable officers. The firm in Toronto is also a very large lithographing firm. It is a house that would make such maps as this. I have no knowledge of this item, but I think we may fairly assume that this is their work. That company did some engraving for the Post Office Department, 447
in making maps of some of the provinces, so that I know they do that class of work.


Richard Blain: In the committee it came out that the small atlases that have been so generally circulated in Canada and the United States were produced in the United States.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the only thing wie can do is to have reciprocity in this matter and to exact a promise from the Postmaster General that if we allow this to pass he will not be so belligerent in reference to our mail bags.
To compensate the Canadian Bank of Commerce for services in the Yukon, from May 1, 1902 to April 30, 1903. $19,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is a vote to pay the Bank of Commerce a commission on the business they handle in the Yukon. We have been reducing the percentage from year to year and after a short time affairs in the Yukon will get down to the same order as affairs throughout Canada, and we will not have any commission to pay. We paid the bank in the first year three-fourths of one per cent, in the second year we reduced it to five-eighths of one per cent, and for this year we have reduced it to one-half of one per cent.


Hon.   S@: This is based on the one-half of one per cent.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this another case where Cox won't wait ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, in this case, so far as I know, they have enough faith to wait patiently.
To pay Charles Miller, $3,713.32 and Robert Miller, $3,339.05 for amounts deposited by them in the Post Office Savings Bank at St. Scholas-tique and fraudulently withdrawn by the assistant postmaster, $7,052.37.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Portions of moneys handed to the assistant postmaster of this town for deposit in the Post Office Savings Bank were appropriated by him for his own purposes.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What evidence have you that the money was deposited ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The case went through the courts and the man is now serving his term in the penitentiary for it. The assistant postmaster who committed the thefts and forgeries had different methods of embezzling.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Was nothing recovered from him ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He had nothing whatever. He was a member of a highly respectable family and his father, I think, had been the postmaster there for



u great many years. It was a very sad case.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Had he no bonds ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Not for such a large amount as this ; he was, I think, covered by the insurance system hut the largest amount insured is very much less than this.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Was that paid ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The amount paid out of our own fund, would not cover $7,000. We have in the Post Office Department a system of insurance by assessment upon the staff. Each postmaster is assessed a certain sum and that assessment is put into a fund which is available to the extent that it is supposed to insure him. But we do not assess a man sufficiently to provide insurance to the amount of thousands of dollars. The amount of insurance for postmasters is comparatively small.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: This opens a grave dif-iiculty. In Truro, for instance, there is an enormous amount deposited in the savings bank, and I would ask if there is no security for the public. Is not the custodian guaranteed by any security ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I was explaining that there are a large number of the employees in the post office service, postmasters and persons in fiduciary positions, upon whom an assessment is levied. For instance, formerly when a man was appointed, he would give the bond of a trust company for $500 or $000, which was considered a large amount. He would pay this guarantee company an annual fee and they would issue a bond in his favour. In case of loss, if you could bring the loss within the terms of the bond, you would recover from that company the amount of that bond, but any shortage above this would of course be lost, unless he had property. Of late years the system has been changed and instead of taking the bond of a company or of a private citizen the department makes an assessment on the employees. For example, if a postmaster had to give bonds for $500, instead of his paying that assessment to a guarantee company and getting the bond of that guarantee company he would pay that amount to the government.


Hon.   S@: What is the limit in regard to a deposit in the post office savings bank for one depositor V


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think any man can deposit $3,000 without a permit and above that he is obliged to have a permit.


Hon.   S@: That feature was considered in this case ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not recall that point.


William Mulock: 


Hon.   S@: I observe that in one case the amount was $3,713.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: These are very thrifty people. I think they are two brothers.


Hon.   S@: That is not my .point. My point is as to the amount of money they can deposit.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think the amount includes interest.


Hon.   S@: 1 have heard that the limit is $1,000.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think it is $3,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The excess is probably the interest added.


Hon.   S@: $3,000 would meet my point. I think the lion. Postmaster General ought to be able to tell the committee the total amount that these depositors had at their credit because the House would naturally be required to vote the difference between that and the amount from that guarantee fund to which the hon. Postmaster General has referred out of which the defaulter would have a certain amount available to meet this defalcation and we should only be asked to vote the difference between that and the amount to which the depositor is entitled. What is that sum ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 
Hon.   S@: If the hon. gentleman has not all these particulars the item should stand because as a matter of .business we ought to rote no more than the actual amount due.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This, I am assured, represents only the balance required after taking into account the sum received from the insurance fund.


George William Fowler: I think this item should be allowed to stand.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: In answer to my hon. and learned friend from Pictou (Hon. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) the hon. Postmaster General said that any one man could deposit $3,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The crime was not in respect to the $3,000. He cannot put in more than $1,000 in one year.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: He can put that in in one day. Could any number of people deposit $1,000 with the Postmaster General in one day ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Then the lion., Postmaster General might he the recipient in one day of $100,000. How long does the postmaster keep that money ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: If there is a bank in the town he is obliged to deposit with the bank to the credit of the receiver general every day before the close of banking hours.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Then lie issues a pass book to the person making the deposit V


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, the pass book is issued at Ottawa by the savings bank department here.


George William Fowler: He gives a receipt V


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It strikes me that the system is rather loose, because the postmaster, if he is only required to give a receipt or issue a pass book, might receive an enormous amount of money.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He does not issue a pass book.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The people in the country have the utmost confidence in the Post Office Savings Bank system and there should be no slip. There has been a slip in this matter and when there has been a slip in this case it might occur in other cases unless there is something very peculiar about this case. I want to find out how this man did this ?


Hon.   S@: He forged the depositor's name.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: In some instances he forged cheques and in other instances he simply embezzled money handed in for deposit. He would make an entry in the pass book, show it to these men then put it in his pocket and erase the entry. He carried on a system of frauds for a long time.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If we give too much information as to how this thing can be done we will make it easy.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The hon. Postmaster General said that he made an entry in this pass book and then erased it. That would be detected when it reached Ottawa.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I will get all the information in regard to the item.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: We might have a large deposit made every day.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There need not be any want of confidence on the part of the public because 'the fact that we are voting this item shows that the public are protected.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: But this is a matter *of grace. Suppose parliament did not vote this money what would these men do ?
447}


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The government would be responsible. There is no question about that.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I do not suppose as a matter of law they could recover because this man has committed a crime.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes, they could recover. If a depositor hands in money to the postmaster he is the agent of the government and the government are therefore responsible for the money.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I think the hon. Minister of Justice would get up an ingenious defence and that he would take the ground that if an officer of the government did something outside of the government regulations the government could not be held responsible.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is a very exceptional case. The man who was postmaster at this place was also notary and he was acting as agent for these men and a part of his fraud consisted in representing that he was investing their money for them. In one case he forged a cheque on the department for a certain amount and the money was paid out by the department on this forged cheque. In so far as that money is concerned the government are responsible for it. If they part with money without any authority they are responsible. These men were Ignorant people living in the country who had by their industry amassed a sum of money and hon. gentlemen know that a notary stands in the confidence of the country people in Quebec only second to the parish priest. He had the confidence of the people, and at the same time he was postmaster. It is a fraud that would not occur in many years. It had nothing to do with the system.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The Minister of Justice has pointed out a new difficulty. If the Prime Minister were the agent for these people in investing their money, it is a question whether we are responsible. If he did not receive it in his capacity as agent for the government, we would not be responsible except as a very high act of grace.	.


Hon.   S@: I suppose the government will make the information full enough to cover the point raised by the Minister of Justice, as to whether this man received the money as a government officer, or received it simply as the agent of these men to deposit.


James Clancy: I made a request to the Postmaster General early in the session, to bring down the correspondence and papers in relation to the dismissal of the postmistress at the village of Lambton. I would be glad if the Postmaster General would bring it down along with this other information. The hon. gentleman knows how little dis-

posed I am to give him trouble, and be will appreciate my long suffering at the delay.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I was much disappointed that the hon. gentleman was not present on Wednesday night, when I had the papers here. I will have them brought down again.


James Clancy: I will endeavour to be present when this item is up for consideration
again.
To meet expenses in The King vs. British American Bank Note Company, $8,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The British Bank Note Company had a contract with the government for the printing of bank bills, and for the engraving of stamps. The representation was, that instead of giving us steel engraving, as the contract called for, they gave ns lithograph. The court of Exchequer determined that the claim of the Crown was good, and judgment was rendered for $97,000. An appeal was taken to the Supreme Court, and we made up our mind, that possibly it would be better to compromise, and we accepted $50,000 in cash from the British American Bank Note Company, and each party agreed to pay his own costs. The principle on which the court proceeded was that we were entitled to recover the difference in the cost between steel engraving and lithographing.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Did you use the stamps?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: We used the stamps, and got value, and it was not detected. It occurred to me that under the circumstances, if we received $50,000 in the way of damages, we were fairly well off.
Some resolutions reported.


ADJOURNMENT-MARINE AND FISHERY OFFICE AT HALIFAX.
[Stage Direction]
The PRIME MINISTER moved the adjournment of the House.
Mi-. BELL. I wish to call the attention of the leader of the House to this telegram which has been placed in my hands :
The following resolution unanimously passed city council last night :-
Whereas, it is rumoured that the Department of Marine and Fisheries proposes removing their quarters from this city and whereas, this council believes that such a step is unnecessary and, if carried out. would be a decided injustice to this city. Therefore resolved that this council do protest against any such removal as outlined above and further that copies of this resolution be wired to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, the Minister of Finance and to our Dominion representatives Messrs. Roche and Borden.
(Sgd.) L. FRED. MONAGHEN,
City Clerk.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That arises from a misunderstanding. The Mini-ister of Marine and Fisheries has taken an
appropriation for a wharf in Halifax harbour, but, as I stated in connection with that item, the chief purpose Of that wharf is for storage, especially for some of the stores of the department which are of a character that they cannot be stored within the city limits. The wharf which the minister proposes to acquire will be necessary for storage, and as I have intimated it may be necessary that he will have to construct further accommodation for the terminal facilities of his department at Halifax.


ALASKAN BOUNDARY COMMISSION.
Hon.   S@: Has the right hon. gentleman any definite information as to the award of the Alaskan Boundary Commission ? I heard it stated on the street that there has been a decision.


The PRIME MINISTER.: There has been no decision yet; it is expected on Tuesday.


QUEBEC BRIDGE.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: When will the resolutions referred to by the Prime Minister to-day, regarding the Quebec bridge, be laid before the House ? What business will be taken on Monday ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Notice of the resolution will be given, I think, not later than Monday. We will take up all the Bills that are on the programme for Monday's business.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, October 19, 1903.