1903-10-08

PAYMENT OP MILITIA FOR DUTY AT VAL-LEYFIELD STRIKE.

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the intention ot the if so, when ?
government to do so ; and
Mr. CLARKE asked :: 1.	Have the militia who were called out and sent to do duty at Valleyfleld on the occasion oi a strike in the fall of 1900, been paid for their services ? And if so, by whom and on what
[DOT]date ?
2.	What was the total sum paid by the government on account of the calling out of the militia on the occasion of the Valleyfleld strike above alluded to ?
3.	Has an action been entered against the municipality of Valleyfleld to compel that municipality to reimburse the government the amount expended for the militia services rendered on the occasion herein alluded to ?
4.	When and by whom was the action commenced, and upon what date was the writ issued?
5.	Has the case been set down for trial : and when will it likely be tried ?
6.	What is the present position of the suit [DOT] and what instructions have been issued with reference to proceeding with it ?
7.	Have the militia force called out on the occasion of the longshoremen's strike in Montreal, last spring, been paid for their services ? And if so, by whom, and what was the total sum paid out for such services ?
8.	Has any request been made by the city of Mo,n.t7eai to be re'leved of the payment of the militia for such services ?
f', "hat is the intention of the government with respect to enforcing payment from the city of Montreal of any sums advanced by the government for payment of the said militia force in respect of their services while so called out; and what action, if any, does the government propose to take for that purpose ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. Sir F. W. Borden) :: 

PAY OF PERMANENT FORCE.

Mr. GILMOUR asked :: Have any steps been taken toward increasing the pay of the permanent force ? If not, is it


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. Sir F. W. Borden).: No decision has been reached. The matter is under consideration.



CONTRACT WITH THE NORTH ATLANTIC TRADING COMPANY.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax) asked :: 1.	What contract or contracts, if ajiy, have been entered into since the year 1898 between the government of Canada, or any officer or person, acting on behalf of the government of Canada, or the Department of the Interior, of the first Part, and the North Atlantic Trading Company, of the second part ?
2.	What contract or contracts, if any, have been entered into since the year 1898 between the government of Canada, or any officer or person, acting for the Department of the Interior, or for the government of Canada, of the first part, and any trading company or trading companies carrying on business at Amsterdam, in Holland, or elsewhere in Holland, of the second part 7
3.	What are the particulars of each of such contracts ?
4.	Will the government lay on the Table of the House a copy of each of such contracts ?


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: A contract was entered into on the 1st November, 1899, between tlie Department of the Interior and the Trans-Atlantic Trading Company, the name of which was afterwards changed to the North Atlantic Trading Company. The object of tlie contract was to secure the conveyance of immigrants from Europe, especially northern Europe, to Canada. The contract will be placed upon the Table of the House,



MR. J. G. ANDERSON.

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Mr. ALCORN asked ;
1.	Has J. G. Anderson been appointed a fruit inspector, or to any, and what official position relating to fruit or its inspection, in or for the county of Prince Edward, Ontario, or for any territory including that county, or any part of
2.	Where does he reside, and what is his post office address ?
3.	What are his duties ?
4.	What instructions, written or verbal, have been supplied to him ?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher).: Mr. J. G. Anderson was appointed inspector under the Fruit Marks Act, 1901, to act temporarily from tlie Utli September last. There is no special district to which he is appointed. He works at present in tlie province of Ontario. At tlie moment of his appointment he was temporarily residing at Picton, Ontario, but his former residence, to which I understand he was about returning, was Lucknow'. Ontario. His duties are to act as an inspector under tlie Fruit Marks Act. 1901. The general instructions furnished to inspectors are


Hon. Mr. FIELDING.: set forth in a departmental circular, which contains a copy of the Act and the regulations made by Order in Council for its enforcement and operation. Those and the verbal explanations given to Mr. Anderson by the chief of the fruit division were the instructions that were given.



PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND-SHIPPERS' CLAIM FOR DAMAGES.

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Mr. LEFURGEY-by Mr. Hackett-asked :
1.	Has the government received a memorial from the shippers of frozen fish and other perishable goods, in the province of Prince Edward Island, asking to be compensated for loss sustained owing to government boats not keeping up communication between that province and the mainland, during the past winter ?
2.	If so, is it the intention of the government to place an amount in the estimates to meet the claims of said shippers ? If not, why not ?
The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. R. Prfifontaine) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	The matter is under consideration.



REPORT PRESENTED.

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Report of the Geological Survey Department for the calendar year ending 1902.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved :: That order (No. 42) on the public Bills and Orders :	' House in Committee on Bill (No. 3)
to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1900, as amended by Special Committee.-Mr. Charlton,' be transferred to the government orders.


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Motion agreed to.

Mr. W. ROCHE (Halifax).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I rise to a question of privilege. The other day, the hon. member for Prince (Mr. Hackett) said, apparently reading from ' Hansard,' that I had stated :	The fishermen were on the
outskirts of civilization ; and he interpreted these remarks as being a reflection upon fishermen generally, and on the fishermen of his own county in particular. 1 rise to deny that I made these remarks. I saw the reporter and I asked him if I had made these remarks and he said :	No ;
these remarks are not in ' Hansard.' I might have allowed the matter to remain there had not some other gentleman, the member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson) endeavoured to present me in an unfavourable light before this House, and before those whose opinions I value. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Haekiett) could not have read the remark in ' Hansard,' and therefore I stand in an invidious position, as it might appear that I had denied something which was affirmed
to be true, and which was proved by being found in ' Hansard.' Now, I made no such observations, and they are not reported in ' Hansard,' and it remains for the member for Prince (Mr. Hackett) to make an explanation on that point. If the light were imperfect, or if his glasses were improperly adjusted


Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: I rise to a question of order. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) has a right to make a personal explanation, but he has no right to rise and challenge somebody else to make a personal explanation.


Mr. SPEAKER.: The rule is, that an hon. gentleman has the right to make a personal explanation on a question of privilege. The point taken is that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) has no right to ask another hon. gentleman to make an explanation, and I should think that the other hon. gentleman will have to decide for himself whether he wishes to make an explanation or not.


William Roche: I quite agree witli you, Mr. Speaker, but you see that I am compelled, because of the attitude taken by that hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett), to present the case In this way. The hon. gentleman left the impression that he quoted from ' Hansard,' hut he could not have quoted from ' Hansard ' when it is not in ' Hansard.' I do' not think that the leader of the opposition should have interrupted me, because we are all interested In preserving the dignity of this House and in supporting the personal reputation of its members. If he were attacked I would be the first to believe that it was incumbent on him to make an explanation ; and to ask the member who attacked him for an explanation. 1 think that I should have an explanation from an hon. member who has placed me in a derogatory position, and I think the member should make the amends which one gentleman should make to another.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not the slightest wish that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) should be prevented from making ani explanation. It is his duty to put himself right if he thinks he is misrepresented in the House. But when he does so he has no right to lecture other gentlemen of the House, and that is what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) is doing. The House will listen to the hon. gentleman most respectfully, and no one more respectfully than I. when he makes such an explanation, but it is not necessary or desirable that he should indulge in a lecture.


William Roche: I was paving the way in the easiest manner possible for the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) to make an explanation which everybody should be glad to make.


Mr. E. HACKETT (West Prince).: I have no wish to do any injustice whatever to the hon. member (Mr. Roche). When he spoke a few days ago he made this reference and I wrote it down immediately.
The fishermen of Nova Scotia were living on the outskirts of civilization.
Some hou. MEMBERS. Order.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Haclcett) must accept the explanation made by the hon. gentleman from Halifax (Mr. Roche.


Mr. S. HUGHES (Victoria).: I rise to discuss that point of order. The rule, as I understand it is, that when a gentleman makes a statement which is not of his own knowledge, concerning another member, and the other member denies it, then the hon. gentleman who made the statement not of his own knowledge must accept the denial. But in this case, the hon. member (Mr. Hackett) says he heard the statement made in this House.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes) is mistaken. When a declaration is made by a member, that declaration must be accepted against the affirmation of anybody.


Edward Hackett: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Roche) made a personal allusion to me, and he spoke about my eye-glasses. Well, I have to use eye-glasses.


Mr. BENNETT.: What kind of glasses does he use.


Edward Hackett: I use eye-glasses, and I use them for the purpose of spying out hon. gentlemen on that side of the House and it is very unfair and very unjust for the hon. gentleman to make a personal reflection on me because X have to wear eyeglasses.



SPEECH OF THE RT. HON. JOSEPXI CHAMBERLAIN.

Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier).: Before the Orders of the Hay are called, I wish to call the attention of the government to a matter of some importance, and to put a question to the right hon. the Prime Minister. In the summary of the report of Mr. Chamberlain's speech which I find reported in all the newspapers-I have before me the report of the Ottawa ' Evening Journal ' of the 7th instant-I find the following :
Mr. Chamberlain said he believed that the colonies are prepared to meet us in return for a very moderate preference. They would reserve to us the trade we already enjoy ; would also arrange their tariffs in the future in order not to start industries in competition with those already in existence in the mother country ; and not only would they enable us to retain our trade with them, but they would give us preference on all trade done with them by our . foreign competitors


William Roche: I wish to ask the government, if at the colonial conference-as to which, as my right hon. friend knows, we have no verbatim report-or on any other occasion, the Canadian government has stated anything to the British government which would justify this statement of Mr. Chamberlain in regard to tile starting of new industries in the future in this country ; or, in regard to the statement generally which I have just quoted from Mr. Chamberlain's speech ?	.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I also read Mr. Chamberlain's speech, at all events the summary of it which has appeared in the press, and I must say that I do not draw from his words the inference Which my hon. friend has just drawn. I understood Mr. Chamberlain to make an argument and not a statement. Pie argued that if the British public would give a preference to the colonies, it would be an appeal to the colonies to return a preference, not only in matters which had already been agreed to, but in what might be suggested. In regard to statements made at the conference or elsewhere, they are all contained in the papers which were submitted by the Canadian ministers at the conference, and which were conveyed by the government to the House some time ago.



SUPPLY-ST. JAMES' DIVISION MONTREAL.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hou. W.
S.	Fielding) moved that the House again go into Committee of Supply.
['Public Works estimates, I think.']
Mr.   F.@: I). MONK (Jacques Cartier), Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair, I would like to call my right liou. friend's attention to the division of St. James, Montreal. My right hon. friend will remember that very nearly a month ago I called his attention to the fact that that division had not been represented at all during this long session of parliament. My right hon. friend stated at that time that he was under the impression that although his attention had been called to that matter some time previously by myself, still an agreement had been come to between us, or some statement had been made by myself, to the effect that the matter should rest there. This I denied at tiie time : hut my right hon. friend stated that the matter would be seen to at once. I would like to have from my right hon. friend an explanation of why the writ was not issued at that time.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: Mr. Speaker, I am bound to say, first of all, in justice to my hon. friend, that when he called my attention to the matter, I made the statement which he has just repeated as having come from me, and which I made in perfect good faith at the time ; hut as I found no confirmation of it in ' Hansard ' I have to admit that

so far as that goes 1 was mistaken, and I beg my hon. friend to accept my apology for that. * With regard to the other question, the writ has not been issued for this reason. When our attention was called to the matter a few months ago-this session has been so long that it is almost impossible to keep track of time-we found that the lists in the city of Montreal were being prepared. My hon. friend knows that the disposition of the law is that the lists cannot come into force to be made use of in an election until sixty days have elapsed after they have been prepared. Therefore, it has been only within some few weeks at most that the writ could have been issued for the electoral division of St. James.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Will my right hou. friend allow me to state that the lists came into force on the 11th day of May. They were revised in March.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I think the lists were prepared in May.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: They were prepared in March, and came into force in May.


The PRIME MINISTER.: At all events, that is the reason. We did not think it would be useful, nor do I think my hon. friend was particularly anxious to have the writ issued until the session was over, and until, without any inconvenience to anybody, we could dispose of the business in hand, so that we could go to the country, in that particular division, fresh from the questions we have been discussing.


Robert Laird Borden: My right hon. friend is remarkably considerate. He changes his attitude with regard to the St. James division every time he mentions it in the House. Some six or eight weeks ago he distinctly took the ground that he was waiting for my hon. friend front Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) to bring the matter up. It seems remarkable that a constituency should stand unrepresented in this House for months because some member of the opposition did not force the government to issue a writ. However, my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier pointed out that there was nothing in that, because he had brought this matter to the attention of the government as soon as the constituency had been declared vacant. That was not two or three months ago ; it was something like six months ago, if I am not mistaken. Months rolled on and no action was taken. During all that time it would have been perfectly competent for the government to bring on the election, as the lists were all ready. The lists in the province of Quebec, so far as I understand the law, were revised in March last, and sixty days afterwords they would be ready for an election. On the 11th of May, as my hon. friend 419
from Jacques Cartier informs me, the lists were ready for an election in St. James' division, Montreal. The months of May, June, July, August and September elapsed, and we are now in the month of October ; and during all these weary months of this session that constituency has been unrepresented. I do not think the reasons which my right hon. friend has given for disfranchising the constituency during what amounts to an entire year are at all adequate. It would have been perfectly possible to have had a member for that constituency elected during the month of June last, and he would have been present in the House during the past four months to represent the people of that very important division. I am informed that not only were the lists ready, but they were printed in the Printing Bureau in May or June last, and that twenty copies were sent to the candidates who had last contested that division. Under these circumstances, we should surely have some better explanation than the right hon. gentleman has given us why that very important section of the city of Montreal has been unrepresented in parliament during so many months.


Mr. A. B. INGRAM (East Elgin).: I understand the right hon. gentleman to say that the reason why the writ was not issued was that the lists of this year for St. James' division were not completed. I am glad to hear him take that stand, because, in the face of that there cannot be much truth in the rumour which is going about that we are soon to have a general election. The lists in the province of Ontario in many cases are not completed until the last days of December, so that we could not have an election before some time in March. So that the statement of the right hon. gentleman will please the politicians throughout the Dominion, as it means that we cannot possibly have a general election before March next.



Edward Hackett: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair, I desire to call your attention to the fact that the province of Prince Edward Island is entitled to five members. Of one of those gentlemen we all lament the death, which took place iu the early part of the session. I refer to the Hon. Donald Farquharson. Since then the district of West Queen's has been unrepresented in this parliament. I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman if he will have an election in that constituency without delay ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: It is quite true that the county of West Queen's, P.E.I., has not been represented in this House, but it


EEVISEI) EDITION COMMONS
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is not my fault. I am ready to take my share of the blame, but it it also the fault of my hon. friend.
Edward Hackett: How is that ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Because he has not notified Mr. Speaker that there is a vacancy.


Mr. BELL.: Might I ask the hon. the First Minister if it is intended that the House shall sit on Thanksgiving day ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: The government in this matter will be in the hands of the House. We are very anxious to expedite business, but we have a good deal to thank Providence for, and I suppose it would be in order to do like the rest of our fellow-countrymen and not sit on Thursday, but attend to more important duties.


Mr. LOGAN.: Is it the intention to adjourn for the Christmas holidays ?


Edward Hackett: I desire to call to your attention now, Mr. Speaker, that the west riding of Queen's has been vacant


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. gentleman lias already spoken.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Pay and allowance-further amount required for headquarters and district staff, $17,625.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Horn Sir Frederick Borden).: Although, as you have been reminded by my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Logan), we have been here for something like seven months, still I think that the importance of the question of defence is so great and the estimates for that purpose which are being asked this year are so considerable, that it is proper we should take up a short time at least in discussing the present position of our militia force, and the intentions of the government with regard to it. The two items 29 and 30, more especially item 30 will cover the ground upon which I propose to speak. I think it will be more convenient that the general question should be discussed in a single statement rather than divide it up into the different heads suggested by the items in the estimates. The objects for which the militia force was established were first to aid the civil power, to maintain order, and in the second place to repel invasion or attack from without. The militia is the force of Canada upon which the government rely for assistance in maintaining order, in carrying.out the laws of the country, and in maintaining the integrity of our Dominion, if attacked or threatened. These are the purposes for which the militia force was originally established. These are the


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: cents per head to 29 cents per head; during the next decade, up to and including 1891, there is a further slight increase from 32 cents to 37 cents per head; during the next decade, up to and including 1901, there is an increase from 41 cents to 43 cents. But, during the last three years, the average expenditure per head of the population is brought up to 60 cents.


Hon. Mr. TISDALE.: Does that include the cost of the South African war ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, this covers every dollar of expenditure, direct and ordinary, for the militia, including the expenditure on the Fenian raid, the North-west rebellion and the South African war. It also includes the expense of maintaining the garrison at Halifax. It will be seen that the estimated expenditure for this year, including expenditures upon public buildings for the militia, amount to 68 cents per head of the population of Canada.


David Tisdale: That includes an expenditure of $1,200,000 on capital account?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, for the current year. I find that the expenditure for this year, 68 cents per head, has been exceeded only twice since confederation, viz. In the year 1900, when it was 70 cents per head-this, of course, including the expense of the South African contingents-and in 1886, when it was 92 cents per head, this being the year during which nearly the whole of the expenditure in connection with the North-west rebellion was made, when the expenditure for the year on ordinary account, including the North-west rebellion, amounted to $4,055,000. I thought that these figures would be interesting, and would enable us. perhaps, to see exactly where we are with reference to the expenditure which this country is malting in connection with military matters. From my point of view, it is very gratifying to find that we have made this increase, that we are getting nearer to what I believe, and what I think the best citizens of the country believe, is our duty with reference to military matters and questions of defence. How much further we may be prepared to go, I cannot say. But I feel sure of this, that this parliament and this country will be ready to support the government in expenditures of this kind, so long as those expenditures are wise, and the development of the militia is carried on under wise rules and proper directions.
Now, I propose to discuss for a moment the expenditures which are now before the committee. I shall not now speak of the expenditures on account of public works for militia purposes, because these matters have already been discussed in the committee, when the estimates of the Minister of Public Works were under consideration. The expenditures are divided into ordinary


Robert Laird Borden: and capital, and that division, I think is obviously correct. The ordinary expenditure, of course, should be taken out of consolidated revenue, as it is the expenditure for the ordinary maintenance of the militia. The capital expenditure is special. It is chiefly for new armament, to some extent for rifle ranges, and, perhaps, the acquisition of lands for military purposes. This particular vote of $1,300,000 will be chiefly for the purpose of purchasing arms and ordnance and for purchasing equipment and clothing as a reserve. At the present moment we are inadequately armed. There are less than 40,000 rifles in this country whereas we need at least 100,000, and I believe we should have many more than that in reserve. Our field artillery is inadequately armed ; we should exchange the present guns for up-to-date weapons. Our garrison artillery is inadequately armed ; in many cases the armament is absolutely worthless and useless. That should be changed and we propose to change it.
I may be asked : Is $1,300,000 going to do all this ? Certainly not, but it is going to make a commencement. I may be asked -and it would be a fair question-what appropriations do you propose to ask in the future ; what is your policy with reference to expenditure on capital account ? I propose to anticipate this question. I have no hesitation in saying'that I think this vote will have to be repeated four or five times in order to place the militia in a proper and safe position particularly with respect to armament. When we come to vote the various items I will be able to state to the committee, at. least approximately, the disposition which it is proposed to make of the money.


David Tisdale: Do I understand that this present estimate covers an additional arsenal ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, it does not. It includes an amount of $75,000 for reserve ammunition.
As I said a moment ago, I believe that the people of the country and this committee, while willing to give money freely for the benefit of the militia force, will be anxious as to its expenditure and will justify the granting of considerable sums such as we are asking only after being satisfied that the plan of expenditure is the wisest that could be adopted. This I think is the proper moment for explaining in a general way the scheme which we have in mind. One or two sessions ago I stated to the House that I looked forward to having in the near future a force of 100,000 men in Canada which might be called upon at any time and which would be ready within a brief period whenever its services might be required. I am happy to say that reflection and the experience of the last year or two lead me to believe more strongly than ever that such a force can be counted upon and

that it can be counted upon without very much increase i;n the expend!(hire on consolidated revenue account. The scheme briefly and roughly outlined is this: That we shall proceed as we are doing now with an enlistment of say 40,000 or 50,000 of this 100,000 men, this enlistment to be called a peace establishment. Of that 40,000 or 45,000 probably at least fifty per cent, that is twenty-five per cent of the whole 100,000 of the establishment, shall be asked to do annual drill; that all the officers and non-commissioned officers for the total force of 100,000 men shall be required to do annual drill, and that the twenty-five per cent or less of the 100,000 men, say, 22,000 men who will be required to do annual drill, shall be selected men, men who will represent-if I am not making use of a term that is objectionable to some of my friends-the skeleton of the force of 100,000 men.
In connection with a force of this kind it will be absolutely necessary that you should have all the departments of an army properly represented. You cannot put an army into the field unless you have the means of supplying them with food, clothing, arms, transportation and everything that is necessary for their comfort in the field, and in order to do that you must have permanently established in time of peace all the departments which you would require in time of war. This is an essential not only at headquarters but in every one of the whole twelve military districts of the Dominion. We now have too, in this country, I am happy to say, an efficient permanent force, perhaps not as efficient as it ought to be, but a force which has done, and is doing excellent work. This force was created for the purpose of educating the active militia; It supplies the teaching power from which the officers who will have charge of this force of 100,000 men and also the non-commissioned officers and the selected men will get their training. Every man who reflects will realize that the most important point in order to bring about an efficient military force is to have the leaders, whether they be officers, non-commissoned officers, or selected men, thoroughly trained and ready for action at any moment. This is an important and vital part of our scheme. Then the question would be asked :	What
are you going to do with the other 60 per cent ? You have some 40 per cent enlisted for what you may call a peace footing, but where are the 60 per cent and where are you going to find them when you may require them for active service ? Our proposal in regard to the 60 per cent is that they shall be enlisted for the requirements in time of war, but that in the meantime they shall not be required to drill unless they choose to do so, but that they shall be taught the use of the rifle and shall be given rifles and ammunition to use at their homes or at convenient points, that they shall he enrolled so that when an emergency arises they can be brought in and incorporated with this 25 per cent which I have referred to, and which shall be the flesh and blood, so to speak, to be put on the skeleton which will go to make 'up the army. That is roughly an outline of the scheme. I may say, in passing, that we have done a good deal already towards looking after the 60 per cent, the 60,000 upon whom we have to call to make up our army to 100,000. We have already inaugurated a system of rifle associations. We require the men who join these rifle associations to sign a bond or agreement to serve if required in war. We are at present doing this and we are giving them an opportunity to learn the use of the rifle by giving to each association of forty the use of ten rifles. We have established first-class rifle ranges all over the country, and I am glad to say that we have something like 20,000 men now enrolled in these rifle associations. During the last four or five years we have constructed rifle ranges in nearly all of the important centres of Canada. We have in this city the Rockliffe Rifle Range, which is one of the best rifle ranges in the world. We have rifle ranges at London, Hamilton, Niagara, Toronto, Kingston, Montreal, Three Rivers, Sherbrooke, LSvis, St. John, N.B., Fredericton, Campbellton, Moncton, Bedford near Halifax and in British Columbia, and so I might go on.
Mi\ GOURLEY. Any in Nova Scotia '!
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes.


Mr. GOURLEY.: Give us the points.
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. There is one at Bear river, one at Aldershot, and there are one of two in Cumberland county. I am not quite sure whether there is one at Truro or not.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I was just wondering.
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Well, we must have one there.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I hope so.
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. We have also adopted the principle of issuing free ammunition. Six or seven years ago the annual consumption of ammunition was between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 rounds, last year it was between six and seven million rounds, and I am happy to say in this connection, that we have 'increased the capacity of our cartridge factory from a million and a half rounds a year, to something like thirteen million rounds.


Samuel Hughes: How much miniature ammunition was issued free ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000

rounds. In order to carry out tlie scheme of education and training which is the very groundwork of the efficiency of our militia force, it is proposed to establish a central camp at a convenient place in the interior, where all the officers of the force and certain representatives from every corps in Canada may he brought together, a ground large enough to enable military evolutions to he carried out to some extent as they would be in actual warfare, a camp ground which would probably embrace from 20,000 to 30,000 acres of land. To this central camp the permanent force would be brought, and there the plan of education which 1 have outlined and upon the importance of which I cannot too much insist, would be carried out in the best possible manner. It is not proposed to give up district camps. On the contrary, it is hoped that we shall be able to extend the ground for the camps in the different districts so that the officers and non-commissioned officers who have learned their work at this central school will be able to return to their own districts, and there have an opportunity of teaching the men with who-m they are more immediately associated. It is intended I may say in this connection, to increase the number of mounted men. They should at least be trebled and probably quadrupled. There are certain districts of this country, the eastern townships, points along the frontier in different parts of Ontario, and in the North-west especially, where this force can be easily enlisted, and where you can get a class of men who will go into the cavalry who would not think of joining the infantry. It is proposed to utilize these men in this way.
Now, perhaps, this would be as convenient a moment as any to discuss the question of the pay of the militia. I have read some reports in the newspapers and I have heard some statements in this House as to the views of some of my hon. friends connected with the militia upon this question. This is not the first time it has been discussed. I have expressed my opinion in regard to it on more than one occasion, and I would say, while the pay may not be all that we would desire, that in view of the fact that our means are limited, and presuming a strong loyal feeling to exist'among the young mten of this country, it was not unfair to expect them to be prepared to accept what is only an indemnity, and was never intended to be anything more than an indemnity to go up to camp for twelve days, provided they are put in a position not "to be subjected to a direct loss.
That is the idea upon which the pay of the force was established, and I think it is a sound idea, and I am bound to say it has worked fairly well up to the present moment. I have said, and I repeat it, that I think something in the way of an additional amount might be given to men who served well in camp, for the second and third years Sir P. W. BORDEN.
of their turning out, and so on up to five or six years of their service. I would be in favour of recognizing, by some such method as that, good conduct and zeal in acquiring military knowledge. At the present time, however, I may point out that we are not in a position to do this, because the militia law prescribes the pay, and we have no power to go beyond it I hope, when I have an opportunity of bringing down amendments to the Act, that some changes may be made in this regard. I wish to go a little further with regard to this question of pay. I have been at pains to examine the results of the training during the past year, under what is known as the skeleton system, the system of turning out only enough men to keep up the organization of the different companies and regiments. And while I find that only in one or two places was there a lamentable failure to respond to the call to camp, I find that upon the whole


Samuel Hughes: Nothing personal, I hope.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Oh, no, nothing. I speak of camps and not of individuals. I find that, taking the whole of the camps together, the result was about as good as the result, for instance, in the year 1900, when the whole of the militia was called out. I will go further, and I will be able to show that if the camp at Niagara is left out of the computation, then the average this year was very much above the average of the year 1900. Why it was that the battalions failed to turn out at the Niagara camp I do not know. I presume it was because labour was in such demand, and that people had so much to do at home that they could not take the time to go to camp. .Tust here let me make this observation. I am not at all sure, in fact, I doubt very much, if it is desirable that this parliament should vote money for the purpose of taking men away from the avocations which demand their attention. We know what a demand there has been for labour this last year, and how impossible it has been to get labourers. Would it be in the public interest that the government of Canada should enter the labour market as a rival to bid against the agricultural and other industries of the country. I doubt it very much, and I am not disposed to recommend such an extreme step. I go further, and I maintain that if the sum fixed by some of our friends as the proper amount of pay, namely, one dollar per day, had been offered this year in the province of Ontario, you would not have filled up your camp at Niagara much better than you did.


Mr. THOMPSON (Haldimand).: May I ask if the minister has the figures for London district, No. 1 ; he mentions specifically the camp at Niagara ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am going to mention them all. I am going into these details only for the purpose of trying to learn some lessons, if possible, and not at all for the purpose of making any reflections on the Niagara camp. But I wish to point out the extraordinary fact that in the camp at Niagara 44 per cent of the officers who were called into camp, did not materialize. If the officers are not interested enough to go to camp, how can you expect the men to go ? Is it very much wonder that 48 per cent of the men did not
turn out at Niagara ? Was it because the officers were not getting enough pay that they did not go ? I have beard no complaint of that kind. You cannot make the argument apply to the men and not apply to the officers. I have taken a good deal of pains to have a tabulated statement prepared, showing, first, the number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men who were called out for duty last year ; secondly, the number who actually trained; and thirdly, the number who failed to respond to the call.
Statement showing approximate number of Officers, Warrant and N.C. Officers and Men called out for training, and trained, in Camps of Instruction, 1903.
Military District.	Place'of Encampment.	Called out.	Trained.	Difference between Numbers Called out and Trained.	oo f- o g	Warrant and N.C. O's.	Men.	Officers.	Warrant and N.C. O's.	Men.	Officers.	Per cent.	Warrant and N.C. O's.	Per cent.	Men.	Per cent.	1 Total all ranks. 11 	228	440	1,311	150	423	951	78	34 0	17	4 0	360	26 0	4552 	399	651	2,141	225	486	1,113	174	430	165	250	1,028	480	1,3673 and 4....	Barriefield ....	18C	330	1,614	158	205	1,139	28	150	65	190	475	29 0	56851	178	51	178	570	4	45, 6 and 7.	Three Rivers .	451	820	2,718	336	820	2,398	1.15	25'0	320	113-6	4358	150	318	1,070	121	318	610	29	19 0	460	43 0	4899	188	356	1,351	177	305	955	11	5 0	51	140	390	29 0	45810	Various	21	79	279	19	57	184	2	100	22	21 0	95	340	1191,074	3,172	11,058	1,237	2,852	7,920	437	26 0	320	100	3,138	2S0	3,895
I find that in the London camp, district No. I, 34 per cent of the officers failed to turn out; 4 per cent only of the non-commissioned officers failed to respond, and 2G per cent-which is only a little under the average-of the men failed to turn out.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: Does the hon. gentleman show any distinction between the infantry and the cavalry in these figures ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Did they get any more than 50 cents a day ?


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: They got pay for their horses.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Certainly they got pay for their horses, and nine-tenths of these men hired their horses and paid the full dollar, and some of them more than a dollar a day for the horses. There is an important lesson to be learned from this, and that lesson is, that the artillery is a technical branch of the service ; a branch of the service that requires education and application, or the men cannot get on in it. The officers are trained and educated men ; and the men, having been interested by their officers in their work, have turned out for precisely the same amount of pay that the 48 per cent of the Niagara camp would have got. There is no distinction as to the pay. While I do not wish to reflect ou the infantry- because I know very well that both cavalry and artillery have greater attractions for officers, non-commissioned officers and men than has infantry-yet I wish to make this point and I do it in all-kindness and with

every appreciation of the trouble which infantry officers have. I believe it would be possible for them to make the work of their men more interesting than they do. I believe that the scheme which I indicated the other day, of having constructed for every single unit of the force throughout the Dominion a good home, at a convenient place, where the officers and men could meet, where the men could come in the evening without interfering with their work, and where the officers could deliver lectures to the men and promote good fellowship and interest among them, would do ten times more for the force than voting to them a dollar or a dollar and a half a day.
But to continue this comparison. I find that at Three Rivers 25 per cent of the officers failed to turn out, that every noncommissioned officer turned out, that only 11} per cent of the men failed to turn out. That is to say, while at Niagara 48 per cent of the men failed to appear, at Three Rivers they all appeared except about 12 per cent.


Mr. MONET.: Do I understand from these figures that the attendance in the province of Quebec has been better than in the other provinces ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I believe it is. Coming to the
maritime provinces. I find that at Sussex 19 per cent of the officers were absent, all the non-commissioned officers attended and 43 per cent of the men failed to turn out.


Mr. HENDERSON.: What percentage of those expected to come out actually came ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 
Robert Laird Borden: officers and men, which is a better showing than that of 1900. The figures are there to speak for themselves and I think they are unanswerable.
Some comparisons have been made between the city and rural militia. The city militia have been changed with the expenditure on their magnificent drill halls and armouries and we have been told that the rural militia have nothing to place against these. This was done, X think, in a debate to justify the argument that we should pay the rural militia a dollar a day and keep the pay of the city militia at the same rate. It was pointed out by my hon. friend that it was true the city militia gave every cent of their pay into a common fund.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: Most of them.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yet, notwithstanding that, it was argued that, in view of the splendid accommodation they got and of the fact that they had their drill at night, which did not interfere with their days work, we should discriminate by increasing the pay of the rural militia without increasing the pay of the city militia. I dissent from that view. I think we must treat all alike. While the city militia may have some advantages in the respects I have mentioned, they do give up their pay, they are always on hand, and are the first to be called upon in the case of any trouble.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: Eet me say one word of explanation. I urged very strongly that the pay of all the militia, including the city, should be increased, but that if the funds were not sufficient, then the increase should apply to the rural corps for the reasons I gave on that occasion.
that will foster military ardour and encourage our young men to join the militia and complete their term of service, and I propose that encouragement should be given in the shape of a reward to those who have done continuous and faithful service.
The question of the p>ay of our permanent force has been mentioned, and I was to day asked a question with reference to it. I can only say that the position of the permanent force has been enormously improved within the past three years. A pension law has been passed, under which every man who serves in the permanent force will be taken care of in his old age. Formerly men who had served until they had become too old, men who had done good work and had risen to the rank of sergeant or sergeant-major had to retire without any pension. I have a case this very year, in which I am asking parliament to give a gratuity to a sergeant-major, who served the best of his days in the permanent force, who had gone beyond the age limit, and hadi to retire without any allowance. Thank heaven that disgraceful state of things is at an end; and now our permanent force men will be getting something more than forty cents a day and their clothing, lodging, rations, &c. If they are faithful i to their duty and remain in the corps, they are certain of being taken care of, in some sort at any rate, in their old age. I would also like to point this out to the men of the permanent force, if they are sufficiently interested to read what I am saying. It is I open to any man in our permanent force to rise to the highest position in the militia. I am happy to say that we have to-day officers in the force who' began their military career i as privates in the permanent force of this country.


Samuel Hughes: Can the hon. minister give us a few names ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I do not see how we could discriminate. I wish to point out further to my hon. friend that the rural battalions are provided with tents and transportation and are fed, and I do not think it is fair to charge against the city battalions some of the extravagant expenditures of which both the late and the present government have been guilty, in the erection of armouries, which are altogether more expensive than were necessary. I do not know that I should go any further into this question of pay except to say this, that I am looking carefully into the subject and feel disposed to go upon the lines to which I have referred. I feel disposed to ask that increased pay be granted for good conduct to men who turn out regularly and show an intelligent and earnest interest in the force. One of our great troubles-and I am sure it would be just as great if it were a dollar a day-is that a man will attend one annual drill and then get a good job and you will never see him again. I want to do something if possible


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I could give one or two, but I do not think it worth while.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: Lieutenant Butcher, recently appointed, is one of them. Each one of these men carries his marshal's baton in bis knapsack.


William Roche: Are there a number of non-commissioned officers who have served in the regular army and are now employed in the permanent corps ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think there are. I would apply the principle in. existence now in the Northwest Mounted Police. Have a rate of pay for the first year and increase it every year of good service up to a proper point. That is the reform I would propose in connection with the permanent force. But, Sir, we have not only to consider the men.^ but we have to consider the non-commissioned officers and officers. I am prepared to admit at once that the pay of the non-commis-

sioned officers is insufficient and should be increased, and must be increased. And the same is true with regard to the officers. We should give the officers at least as good pay as is given in the British army. I think we should give them better pay. That is a matter to be considered. But here, again, let me point out what has been done for the officers as well as for the non-commissioned officers and privates of thei permanent force. We have established a pension law. It is true, we call upon the officers to contribute. They contribute five per cent of their pay. But upon retiring they get a most generous pension. And not only this, but if anything happens to them, if they are killed or die, their widows and their children are taken care of. So our officers of the permanent force are very much better treated than they were before.
I am sorry to find I am occupying so much time-I thought I should finish in half an hour. But I wish to proceed upon the line I have just mentioned and devote a short time to pointing out what has been done in the way of improving the condition of the militia, and what is about to be done. I will only name some of the changes which have been made. I have already mentioned the pension law. Let me refer to the limitation of the term of commission. Let me refer to the establishment of the reserve of officers. That was being done, I think, by my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tisdale) my predecessor, about the time I came in. It had been arranged for, but I am happy to say that I have had the satisfaction of carrying it into force and1 insisting on its being done.


David Tisdale: The hon. gentleman is not now referring to the permanent force 1


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, but to the whole militia. The term of an officer in command of the militia to-day is limited to five years. When I came into office there were about fifty colonels who had been serving forty years more or less giving no opportunity whatever for a young man to rise, and taking away every inducement almost for a young man to enter the militia force at all. Now we have the enforcement of the age limit. We had colonels away beyond the age limit, we had captains away beyond the age limit, we had nra'ors away beyond the age limit, and lieutenants-why I myself knew some lieutenants who were over sixty. It is now possible for us to get rid. of these well-meaning gentlemen who, no doubt, have served their country very faithfully. The lieutenant who was sixty had no opportunity to rise, because his colonel, who was seventy, had been in command for thirty or forty years, and the major, who was sixty, had held his place for about as long. Of course, I am not finding fault, but simply pointing out the fact that this was the condition of things which actually existed and which, I Sir F. W. BORDEN.
am happy to say, has been absolutely changed, so that, to-day we have, as a result of these promotions, given the younger officers who enter the force the reasonable hope that, within eight or ten years they will be occupying high positions in their regiments if they deserve it.


Mr. SPROULE.: Might I ask a question ? Is that change necessarily in the interest of the militia ? It is since that change was made that we find the complaints that we have only the skeleton of a militia turning out. May not this have been a detriment to the force.' ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND. DEFENCE.: 
Andrew B. Ingram: I understand that the term of office for a colonel is limited to five years ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, but there is a regulation by which, upon the recommendation of the district officer commanding and the further recommendation of the general, the tenure of office may be extended by one, two, or three years, the limit being three years. It may happen that there is no major-the second in command-qualified to take the colonel's place. And it may be in the interest of the force-and it must be shown to be in the interest of the force-to extend the term of command for not more than four years.


Andrew B. Ingram: Military qualifications to be the only requisite ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The only requisite, so far as I know. Another reform effected under the present regime is to insist upon annual camps. We have had annual camps ever since 1896. In my opening remarks I spoke of the importance of an army having all the departments of a working force actually in existence in time of peace, and doing in time of peace the work that they wopld be required to do in lane of war.
In this connection, we have inaugurated a system of medical service under the supervision first of Colonel Neil-

son, and now under Lieutenant-Colonel Fiset, who distinguished) himself so greatly at Paardeburg. We have organized bearer companies. There was not one in Canada before. We have field hospitals. There was not one in Canada before. Wei have an army medical staff, which did not exist.
We have organized an intelligence branch of the service which did not exist before, for the purpose, as the committee knows, of collecting the information that might be necessary for the commanding officers to use in time of war. In connection with the intelligence branch, surveys are being made of the thickly-settled parts of the country, and I hope to be able, to get the necessary funds to make an accurate military survey of the country, which will be most useful. This is a thing that is done in every other country. I hope to see maps prepared and placed on sale in the book-stores, which will be of immense benefit to the people of the country and to people visiting this country.
We have organized an army service corps which previously did not exist. This is under the supervision of Lieutenant Colonel Biggar, who had service in this connection in South Africa which has been of great advantage to him and who has taken a special course at Aldershot to fit him for the position. I believe he is a most efficient officer. In connection with the army service corps, instructions are being given in every military district, lectures are given before the camps and a small permanent staff has been established.
Then we have the ordnance branch, which is now being created for the first time in Canada. This is, of course, very largely the old stores' branch of the Militia Department, which has been under the direct control of the minister. For years and years, certainly for the last ten years, a change in this respect has been advocated. It was altogether an anomalous condition that the stores, rifles and articles of that kind should be under the control of the civil head of the department. I had not been very long in my position when I was impressed with the force of that statement. We have now adopted the English system ; we are creating an ordnance branch, and have appointed Colonel Macdonald, the very able and worthy head of the old stores' branch, to the important post of head of the ordnance branch, placing him under the supervision of the general officer commanding. As under the British system, he is still under the control of the minister, but he is under the supervision of the general officer commanding.


David Tisdale: Does that cover all the stores ?


Tlie MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That covers everything.


David Tisdale: But he does not buy them ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood the minister to say that the ordnance branch is under the supervision of the general officer commanding as well as of the hon. minister himself.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We have adopted the phraseology of the English Order in Council, which says that certain departments shall be under the control of the general officer commanding and that certain others shall be under his supervision.


Andrew B. Ingram: In case of a conflict with respect to the management of this department between the general officer commanding and the minister, what would occur ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is a case that would scarcely arise. The Order in Council provides that the minister, if he chooses, may consult the head of a great department such as the ordnance department, the administration of which involves great expenditures of money and important questions of policy. In the English service this applies to the quartermaster general as well, and to one or two other similar positions in the War Office.
I think it is convenient to follow, as far as possible, the course of the War Office in this, because it is desirable that our organization here should be as nearly as possible like that of the War Office.
We have also established an engineering branch, and I have been able to secure as the chief of the branch Major Weatherbee. a graduate of the Royal Military College at Kingston. Mr. Weatherbee has just returned after having taken a long course in England to fit him for this position. He has as his assistant Captain Maunsell, whom I found in the service, who was appointed by the hon. ex-minister (Hon. Mr. Tisdale), and is one of the most efficient officers in the service.
At one o'clock, committee took recess. Committee resumed at three o'clock.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Mr. Chairman, before proceeding with my statement, I wish to make a short explanation as to the percentage of the 100,000 which I said would be turned out in camps annually. I think I said that it would be somewhere between 22 and 25 per cents I meant that statement to refer to the rural militia. Of course I think there are in the cities from 12,000 to 15,000 men enlisted in the ordinary way, and the 4.3 per Company will all drill in the cities.
To resume the consideration of the changes and improvements that have, or are about to he made in the state of the militia : before recess I concluded my reference to the engineer branch. I come now to that of mili-I tary secretary. We have never had in this

country a branch of that sort, although it has always existed in the war office in England. Lord Dundonald suggested to me some time ago that this would be advisable, and I found that we had what I believed to be a first-rate man here at Ottawa now at the head of the Medal Claims Board, whose employment as military secretary would not involve any additional charge upon the revenue, as he Is already paid fordoing the work as head of the Medal Claims Board, and is quite willing to take up the additional work involved in the discharge of the duties of military secretary. I simply mention this as a fact of some importance, and also as a departure not involving any additional charge upon the treasury. I refer to Lieutenant Colonel Smith, who was at one time district officer commanding No. 1 district, who has been here for some years, who has done very valuable work, and who is acknowledged on all hands to be a very able military man.


Andrew B. Ingram: A first-class man.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 
Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I omitted to refer to the engineer branch of the pei'manent force. As we have made the ordnance a branch of the permanent force, and all the employees, soldiers of the permanent force and \inder military control ; so we propose to have in every military district, or rather as a part of every military depot of the permanent force, a small section of engineers. There is no engineer force to-day in the permanent militia force at all. We have a few scattered companies of engineers. It is a most important thing to have an up-to-date, educated and thoroughly trained engineer force, and we want a section of it in every one of the depots in the Dominion. The strength of this force will be about 100 ; so that we will have 100 ordnance corps, 100 engineer corps, 200 Montreal depot, and 100 Strathcona Horse, making in all 500. I cannot hope to have all of these established during the present year, but the ordnance corps and the engineer corps, and I hope the Strathcona Horse will be established within a very short time.
Now, Sir, I wish for a moment to speak of the state of the militia generally. Notwithstanding the criticisms which have been vouchsafed against the militia, and notwithstanding the failures, perhaps lamentable failures in some respects, I believe that as a whole, as a going concern, as a machine fit to do work if called upon ; the militia force is in fairly good condition to-day. I think that was pretty amply proven two or three years ago in the despatch of the contingents to South Africa ; in the preparation within a fortnight of a force of one thousand men scattered over 2,000 or 3,000 miles of territory ; and in the despatch later on, of artillery and cavalry within a space of perhaps three weeks. All this has shown that there is some vitality in the Canadian militia, and some power to do its work, notwithstanding that some of the camps have seemed to be lamentably small. I maintain that as a going concern the militia is in a far better shape than it was ever before, and is in a fairly satisfactory condition. But much more can be done ; much more must be done, and it must 'chiefly be done in the line of educating and training the leaders of this force. This is the direction in which I think we should chiefly expend our money. If we had an unlimited amount of money to train 100,000 men, I daresay it would be a better proposition to call them all out and spend our money, and have the force up to date in every particular. But we cannot do that. It is a question of doing the best we can with the money we have, and I think the amount of money we are asking from the people for the militia this year, is perhaps pretty near the top of what we should ask in the near future. If that be so, we must be content with perfecting the different departments of the militia ; we must be content with affording the very best possible means for the education of the officers, non-commissioned officers and selected men ; we must be content with supplying the sixty per cent whom we are not asking to turn out to drill, with rifles, with ammunition, with targets, with instructions in the art of shooting.
But I think that the idea which I have put forward-which is Lord Dun-donald's idea, which is the idea his predecessor approved of-of having turned out annually to drill, all the officers and noncommissioned officers, and a skeleton of the men ; I believe that this means you will get a fairly effective skeleton upon which you can put the plastic material, the flesh and blood, out of which you could make an army. Some one has alluded to the shadow of a skeleton. Well, I beg to dissent from that view. It would have been more correct to have said a skeleton from which some of the smaller bones are absent-and a good many of the small bones seem to have been absent in one or two of the military districts in the western

part of Ontario. As to the flesh and blood, as to the plastic material, the 60 per c-ent that we propose to utilize to fill out this skeleton, and make it strong and stalwart and able to defend ; I can point with confidence to the evidence that has been given by the militia men of former days ; the men who engaged in repelling the Fenian invasion ; the men who engaged in putting down the two Northwest rebellions ; the men who volunteered for South Africa and won glory for their country ; the men who were second to none in heroism; the men who never turned their backs upon the foe


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have unbounded confidence in the capacity of these men, if we give them an opportunity of learning how to use a rifle, that they will fill up the ranks, and provide the flesh and blood, the plastic material, that round out this skeleton and make an army fit for duty whenever it is required.
I have already referred to the importance of housing the militia. If we want to make the infantry force of this country what it ought to be, we must provide for every single unit, every company, sufficient accommodation for at least 100 men, where they may meet together and spend their evenings, using it as a sort of club-room, and having blackboards and other means to educate themselves in the art of war. If you do that, you will excite renewed interest among the men, and you will get together and get the sympathy of the very best men in the community. You will not then have to worry over the question whether you are to pay them 75 cents or a dollar or fifty cents a day. It is not the money that brings that class of men out. It is the loyal spirit in them, and the desire to serve their country ; and all they will ask is the opportunity to acquire the necessary knowledge in order to do so.
I would like to say one word with regard to the Royal Military College. This is an institution of which we are all justly proud. It has sent men to fill prominent places in the British army. I think there were something like a hundred officers, graduates of the Military College, taking part in the South African war ; and one or two of them greatly distinguished themselves there, and are to-day occupying in that country positions of very great responsibility. In 1896 the Royal Military College was almost in the throes of dissolution. There were scarcely a baker's dozen in the college. There were not) more than half a dozen graduates. To-day, instead of having to look around and ask for young men to come to the college, we have the agreeable fact staring us in the face that the young men have to compete to get into the college. Whereas formerly the classes were composed of ten or twelve .or less, to-day every place in the college is filled, and each year at the examination there are half a dozen or a dozen Sir F. W. BORDEN.
more young men who are anxious to get in. Only a day or two ago I had a letter from a gentleman in Canada whose son has a commission in the British army, in which he sent me a quotation from a letter which he had just received from his son telling him in what high estimation this college was held in England and in the British army ; and well it might be.
I am happy to be able to say that whereas during the early years of my administration we could hardly induce a graduate of the college to pome into our force, to-day we have a considerable number of graduates in the permanent force of this country. This is because they see that the force, fo same extent at least, is being cared for, and that there is some future for it, and also because we have provided a generous pension fund which will insure the care of the men after they have passed the years prescribed as the limit of military age. We have to-day in the intelligence branch three or four graduates of the Royal Military College, which is most satisfactory to me. It is all very well, and we cannot regret very much, perhaps, to see our young men going into the British army and taking prominent places there ; but I must say I would very much prefer seeing them remain at home and endeavour to work out the problems which we have to solve in this country, the solution of which need their assistance.
I wish to refer to the recent establishment of a rifle factory in this country. I think lion, gentlemen will all agree with me that it is important that the militia force of this country should be as far as possible a self-contained as well as a self-reliant force, and that we should be able to manufacture our own rifles as we are manufacturing our own ammunition. Our rifle is not precisely the same as the service rifle in England ; but there is practically no difference, while the ammunition used is exactly the same. So that if a British force were fighting alongside of ours, or vice versa, no difficulty could possibly arise from the fact of their using two slightly different rifles.
Then, as I have stated, we have enlarged our arsenal. Formerly the cartridge factory at Quebec was turning out in the whole year as many cartridges as the Woolwich arsenal was turning out in one day. Today we are able to turn out, or will he before this year is through, 13,000,000 rounds of cartridges, as against 1,500,000 seven years ago. We have established, in connection with the arsenal, a school of gunnery. We are not only making cartridges for rifles, but*we have put in the necessary plant to make shells and all the projectiles required for the use of larger guns, and we are con- ' structing a building at a cost of some $30,000 for the purpose of a Dominion school of gunnery.
We are devoting more attention also, as far as we can under the present

condition of the law, to the encouragement of cadets. I am sorry that we are not able to do more ; but we are prescribing systems of instruction, and we are sending drill-sergeants whenever requested to do so, and to some of the older classes we have been able to supply rifles. This is only a beginning. I recognize in the cadets, the young lads at school and college, the material which will make up the future army of this country if it should ever be required for serious work. That is the time to make the impression on the young mind. Three or four weeks of drill and training at that time will do more good, I was going to say, than an equal number of years after a man has reached the age of twenty-five or thirty.
In this connection perhaps I may say a single word as to the militia law. Early in the session I gave notice that I would introduce a Militia Bill. A Bill was prepared, but I was asked later on, through the colonial office, if I would go to England and discuss certain changes which I had made up my mind to introduce ; and I might have gone if I had known that we were going to have such a long, interesting and pleasant session as this, and might have returned in time to introduce my Bill. But I did not know that and consequently thought better to leave the Bill over to another year.


David Henderson: Does the hon. minister not think he will be able to bring it up yet this session ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I shall consider that. I do not think it is desirable, perhaps, that I should go into the question of what I propose in the Bill, under the circumstances. When the time comes to introduce it it will be time enough to discuss its provisions. In conclusion, I have only to say that I hope the committee will not consider the programme which I have laid down as too ambitious. I believe it is a programme which can be carried out, and I have every confidence that if this or some similar line of action is proceeded with it will be possible for us to have within a measureable period-I would say five years at least-one of the best militia fighting organizations on the face of the earth.


David Tisdale: Last year, when discussing militia matters, I used the following words, which I shall quote as expressing my feelings at present:
I shall make my remarks on this subject entirely free from politics, and entirely free from any fault finding, even if there be room for finding fault. It is my opinion, as I have often said before, that the militia should be kept entirely out of polities. It is above and beyond rail politics. Of course, it must to some extent have a political bearing because the minister who controls our militia for the time being must belong to one or other of the political parties, but so far as I am concerned I will exclude politics as much as possible from the consideration of this question. If I have any fault to
find with the Minister of Militia, or with the manner in which the contingents were despatched to South Africa, I propose to do as the Liberals do in the old country : viz., keep my criticism until the war is over and then bring the minister to account. I intend to show to the people of the world that whatever our politicai disagreements may be in Canada, we are ready and willing to show a united front in defence of our country and of the empire, and to leave complaint and criticism until we have conquered the enemy.
I do not propose to bring any politics into tile discussion to-day. At tlie same time, if I find it necessary or desirable to indulge in any criticism, I shall not be debarred from doing so through the fear that anybody would think I was moved by political reasons. I would just say one word about politics and then drop that subject altogether during this discussion. I want to warn my bon. friend the Minister of Militia that he will have to be very careful, very strong-minded and firm in order to keep politics out of this question. He will have to stiffen his backbone and make his will stronger if lie is going to do that effectively, because I think, in spite of the glowing picture he has given us of the state of the militia to-day, there are some difficulties which require to be remedied. I do not propose just now to take up the propositions of the hon. gentleman, because that can be better done at a later stage in the few remarks which I propose to make in connection "with this most important matter. We have had three very important events within the year, with which our military organization has some connection. We have had the South African difficulty ended, and we have had a Colonial Conference and a new Major General to take command of our forces. The South African peace having been accomplished, now is the time, as I said in my remarks last year, for criticism. Fortunately that war is over and we contemplate with pride and sorrow the louely graves which mark the valour and endurance of our young men who gave up their lives for the maintenance oftlie empire and the credit of Canada. Our heroes who survive have returned and taken off their war paraphernalia, and you would scarcely know them now from the other individuals gathered throughout our country, but, in common with their dead comrades, they will ever live in the hearts and memories of Canadians for the valour they displayed and the evidence they gave the world that Britain no longer stands alone, but is surrounded by her children, ever prepared, when the call is sufficiently urgent, to unite and uphold British unity and the glorious principles that underlie the British constitution. Before proceeding to discuss the Colonial Conference, I wish to make some reference to the militia report. I think we may congratulate ourselves upon our good fortune in getting so distinguished and gallant a soldier as our present Major General to take

command of the militia. He has been with us now sufficiently long to enable us to appreciate his work. Before coming here lie had some experience of the militia of Canada, because he is one of the ablest soldiers which the great empire found it necessary to send to South Africa. I propose to read some extracts from his report, so as to show where we stand in connection with those very important matters to which my bon. friend the Minister of Militia has alluded. In his report he says :
I have proposed that in future the regimental establishments of the active militia shall be at war strength, each unit containing in addition within itself the germ of a reserve. These proposals have met with your general approval, and I am now drawing up the establishments which, when complete, I will submit to you
1 may say that in his report he gives no explanation about the result, but my hon. friend has given us some insight into that. The Major General proceeds to say :
These camps of instruction covered a total period of twenty-five days, the whole of which I devoted to the personal supervision of the training, visiting each camp in turn.
As men who have only nine working days in the year to learn their duties as soldiers and non-commissioned officers cannot afford to spend any of that time on ceremonial, I arranged that instruction should be entirely devoted to practical work.
The officers and men under instruction worked with great zeal and intelligence, and though the system was in many cases quite new to them, they picked it up very quickly, and the tactical exercises engaged in towards the end of the training were useful in showing to all ranks how much they had still to learn before they could be considered efficient soldiers, let alone non-commissioned officers qualified to instruct and lead others.
Observation at these camps has shown me that the Canadian soldier takes the greatest interest in anything which his intelligence proves to him is of real practical benefit. Therefore, I propose in future to leave out marches past and ceremonial, ar.d instead to convert the camp3 practically into schools of instruction for fitting the soldier to take the field, with not one item in the programme that does not make for fighting efficiency. -
Though the rural militia contains a large proportion of earnest, self-sacrificing officers and men, it does not satisfy the requirements of a national defence force. Nominally it is a body of men who engage to serve for a period cf three years. As a matter of fact it consists and always has consisted of a number of regiments which are almost recruited afresh every time they are called out for training. Large numbers of entirely raw men enlist before the particular training and are perhaps never seen afterwards, no real effort being made to compel them to fulfil their engagement, owing to powers of compulsion being quite inadequate for the purpose. Consequently it is impossible to carry instruction beyond the most elementary stages. Such a system is unduly expensive and ineffective from a military point of view. So small is the rate of pay, and so unsatisfactory have been the conditions of training, that the best men do not enter the militia as they might. From this it follows that the non-commissioned officers also 1 are to a large extent insufficiently qualified for j their posts, nor can they command ready Hon. Mr. TISDALE.
obedience from the soldier when, as in many cases, they are quite ignorant of the very rudiments of their duties. Numbers of men go out to camp as non-commissdoned officers without any previous training whatever, and the proportion of these men who are new to the rank on such occasions shows clearly that there is a want of continuity in the personnel of the units.
As with some of the non-commissioned officers, so it is with some of the officers. Many have evidently not studied their profession sufficiently to act as the leaders and instructors of their non-commissioned officers and men. I make suggestions, later, on this matter.
Self-instruction by means of books, lectures to their men in well-appointed comfortable armouries (when these are provided) during the winter, and thoroughly practical work in the summer months will, joined with the excellent spirit which pervades the officer class of the Canadian militia, soon, I anticipate, produce the required result.
Material.
There is a great deficiency of all kinds of military stores and material essential for active service. This deficiency should be made good in time of peace.
It is absolutely necessary that the regulation allowance of every article of equipment required for mobilization of companies should be at company headquarters, for regimental mobilization at regimental headquarters.
Though there appears to be almost a sufficient stock of camp equipment for the existing units at their present strength, there is certainly no reserve available for the large force which would have to be placed in the field in time of war.
City Corps.
The city regiments, under the present organization would as a whole be the easiest to mobilize. but even they cannot in any sense be said to approach a state of readiness to take the field. They labour under the greatest difficulties and disadvantages. They all suffer from want of field training, owing to the fact that they get practically no camp experience. The allowances for instruction are too small ; so, in the rr ost efficient of the corps much of the necessary expense has to be undertaken by the officers and men instead of by the public. This unfair expense causes the loss of many good officers to the country. Many corps suffer from want of proper accommodation in the way of armouries, &e. Deficiencies of this kind have either to be made up by private effort or the corps must suffer.
Army Service Corps.
This branch of the service has been started I his year. Of the four skeleton companies authorized, two are now complete and another is in process of organization. Lieutenant Colonel Biggar and two non-commissioned officers were sent to Aldershot where they were given every advantage by the authorities to gain information on artmy service corps work.
Since his return to Canada. Lieutenant Colonel Biggar has conducted a six weeks' course of instruction at Montreal with the company there, with satisfactory results	[DOT]
He goes on to speak very highly of the school of musketry, and I think I will read part of that, because I consider that one of the most important improvements that have been made :
.	School of Musketry.
Courses of instruction were held during the months of July and August at the Roekliffe Rifle

Range. The number of officers and non-commissioned officers taking the course totalled sixty, this being double the number that attended the same term ot the previous year. Of these 31 officers and 22 non-commissioned officers obtained certificates.
Under the able and energetic command of Lieutenant Colonel Cartwright, the inspector of musketry and commandant of the School of Musketry, great progress has been made in the past year in extending and popularizing the knowledge of rifle shooting throughout Canada. The history of the new rifle clubs shows a steady growth, and the value of the work done by the School of Musketry, not in the teaching of shooting, but in the teaching of instructors in shooting can hardly be overestimated, even though its work is as yet on a small scale
I read these things, not merely for the information of the House, but to get them on ' Hansard,' where they can be seen by the country. Because we get too little out of this report. A number of military gentlemen get it, but the country generally seem to get very little knowledege of it. He speaks of the cavalry thus :
I have issued a memorandum on the training of the mounted troops of Canada, and also a new syllabus of instruction. I have assimilated the equipment and training of all branches of mounted troops.
I am preparing Instructions for the militia on their training, dealing in particular with musketry. field engineering and field work generally.
Referring to the cadet corps, he says :
This branch of the national defence system might easily be of the greatest value to the country, but from various causes it is at present of little account.
The results of the present system compare very unfavourably with what has been achieved in Australasia.
The whole cadet corps question requires to he considered and reorganized on workable lines, as the youth of the country are splendid material now lying waste from the military point of view.
Arrangements should be made to furnish every cadet corps of a certain strength with proper instruction.
These extracts give us knowledge not only of the condition of our militia, but of the capacity, industry and enthusiasm of the Major General Commanding. There is not a detail so small as to escape him, and there is no matter so difficult that he will not undertake its Improvement. I say again we have to congratulate ourselves that we have in command a man whose record and reputation we have every reason to be proud of, and not only that, but a man of straightforward common sense, a man of capacity and indefatigable industry. It will be the fault of the department and of the people of Canada if he does not make a success of the militia, and I prophecy that with the proper assistance he will do so to a very large extent. Now, let me read an extract or two in connection with the Colonial Conference, which shows to what extent the government committed this country on the question of defence. Here is an extract from 420
the report of the Canadian government to the Colonial Conference :
But while thus calling attention to the progress that has already been made by Canada In her militia organization, the ministers are far from claiming that perfection has been attained. If defects exist, there is every desire on the part of the Canadian government to remove them, and for this purpose the advice and assistance of experienced imperial officers will be welcomed and all reasonable efforts made to secure an efficient system.
In conclusion, the ministers repeat that, while the Canadian government are obliged to dissent from the measures proposed, they fully appreciate the obligation of the Dominion to make expenditures for the purposes of defence in proportion to the increasing population and wealth of the country. They are willing that these expenditures shall be so divested as to relieve the taxpayer of the mother country from some of the burdens which he now bears ; and they have the strongest desire to carry out their defence schemes in co-operation with the imperial authorities and under the advice of experienced Imperial officers so far as this is consistent with the principle of local self-government which has proved so great a factor in the promotion of imperial unity
At that time also we had some important information showing the expenditure per capita of the different colonies, including Canada, in connection with defence, showing that Canada had the lowest rate of expenditure, per capita, and only about one-fourteenth that of the mother country.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: What did they give as the pei* capita expenditure of Canada ?


David Tisdale: Two shillings. That would be about the average up to this year, according to the figures given by the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence.
The MINISTER OF' MILITIA AND DEFENCE. Pretty nearly.


David Tisdale: I will not trouble the House with these figures. My olij'ect was simply to show the position that our government took with regard to this matter. I think that in these militia matters we should support -any proposals emanating from the government unless we find in them something very wrong. If I find the government proceeding upon wrong principles, I am prepared to call attention to their errors. But the government represent ihe whole country for the time being, and they have committed the country, directly or indirectly, to the empire in regard to this matter. Therefore, I think both sides should support the government, except where the government is clearly and widely wrong ; and those who may not be quite satisfied can wait until they get into power to improve upon the government's proposals. I quite agree with the hon. member for Hal-dimand (Mr. Thompson) when he said :
Taking all these quotations together we find an absolute pledge given by our representatives for' militia betterment, a pledge given



on an occasion of grave importance, reduced to writing, mistake or misunderstanding an impossibility.
That brings us to the main question, the state of the militia at the present time and the proposals made by the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence for its betterment. I must say that his presentation of his request for increased expenditure and of his very broad and ambitious scheme for the improvement of the militia of Canada is of very great interest and requires a great deal of consideration. For my own part, 1 am prepared to join with parliament in approving of an expenditure even beyond what I might myself consider necessary if those in charge of the militia of this country considered it necessary for the advancement of our national defence. While this scheme is of such magnitude that it will startle some people, there is no question that if it is practicable and is properly and carefully carried out it will lay the foundation of a magnificent scheme of defence. On general lines I approve of the policy proposed, but, when X do so, it must be understood that we are not relying solely upon expenditure, and that this expenditure will be supplemented by successful work in other lines. If we are to have an effective system we must be prepared to face the expense, but my hon. friend the Minister of Militia and Defence must not forget that, if we are to entrust him with this very large sum of money, the expenditure of that money must be supplemented by efficient instructions, work and results, so that we may have a proper and sufficient actual fighting force, supplemented with the same sort of reserve. Owing to the South African war and to other troubles which my hon. friend mentioned, he must remember that the expenditure on a peace footing has been very much less than the larger sum he now asks, as all of the present estimates for the militia are on a strictly peace footing, and I admired the courage and straightforwardness of the hon. minister when he said that we will have to stand this increased expenditure for three or four years.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Probably five years.


David Tisdale: My own opinion is that if we embark on this scheme and it can be made a success, it is probable that the annual grant required will never become less. I am not afraid of such an expenditure, especially if the country continues to make progress at its present rate. I believe that'if such an expenditure as this is worth while, we should undertake it at once and with our eyes open. With the great development of our industries, production and population, with the prominence that is given to great imperial and colonial - matters in the old country, I am most optimistic with regard to the future of this country for no country under Hon. Mr. TISDALE.
heaven to-day offers the inducements to the immigrant that Canada does. We have seen a great colonial minister resign from the highest place that the ambition of man can contemplate in order to fight the battle of closer union between the various portions of the British empire. That battle is of the utmost importance to Canada for when it is won we will have an illimitable market, a market for more than we can produce for scores of years to come, and we will have flowing to our shores all the immigration we desire, and the best immigrants in the world. I do not agree with my hon. friend from North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) wlio the other day said that we will in a few years to come ship wheat from Port Arthur into the United States because the population of that country will increase in that time by 20,000,000. If this closer union between the empire and the colonies takes place we will be mere likely to see immigrants coming in large numbers from the United States into Canada than to see immigration flowing into the United States from any other country in the world. We should do our share in promoting closer relation with the motherland. We should not halt at the tariff preference which has been granted by the Canadian government to the British people, but back up the efforts of the great Imperial statesman I have mentioned in his efforts for mutual preferential trade relations between the empire and the colonies. Back him up not only by sympathetic words but by acts as well. While this government declined to take up the question of defence on the lines submitted by the imperial authorities, they pledged themselves that they would see to it that our militia would be improved and we should not be deterred by the fear of ex-pense-from fulfilling that pledge. Therefore if the Minister of Militia and Defence gees on with this scheme on the lines suggested, carefully and with a view to the best interests of the militia, I should say that the scheme was a good one. If we are to have a militia force it must to some extent be commensurate with what would be required by the experiences of war. While the enlistment should be smaller than what would be necessary in case of war it is very wise to have all of these auxiliary services, munitions of war, clothing, medical supplies, and camp equipment, in an efficient condition. Not only must we have a full supply of materials but these must be supplemented by proper instruction of those who will have charge of and those who will use them in call of need. All of this will cost a great deal of money. Owing I presume to the large appropriations for which he has had to ask for other purposes, the hon. gentleman has not asked an appropriation for the additional arsenal which he promised us last year or the year before. The hon. gentleman is committed to it but we can wait for it a short time as it is one of the most

important requirements of our system of *defence.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think I should state, and I forgot to state this, that there is a company now which has approached the government with the view of establishing an arsenal at the city of Ottawa if they can make a contract for the supply of a considerable amount of ammunition.


David Tisdale: I would not commit myself to the city of Ottawa, but lam glad to hear that it is to be in Ontario. The place it should be located would be a matter, I presume, that the hon. minister and the Major General would be largely responsible for, but it is a matter that requires very careful consideration and therefore I am not prepared to commit myself to any opinion upon it on short notice. I will say, however, that it should be somewhere well west In Ontario. I am very glad to hear that the hon. gentleman is making some progress in that regard. I do not propose to discuss the details of these different votes now because we will be able when we come to consider them in detail to procure any information which the hon. minister has not supplied in his remarks. The most, serious matter of all to be considered is not the establishment of these auxiliaries. I want the hon. gentleman and the government to be seized fully of the responsibility which they are undertaking in asking for these very large sums. That parliament will grant them I have mo doubt. The proposal of the government commits us to these expenditures for years. It is a new departure and it is a scheme which at every step should be most carefully considered because those who follow it will be committed to it, and if there are any mistakes in regard to it the country will be committed to them. This is a comparatively easy thing compared with what I am coming to presently; that Is the providing of the material for the militia, and the question of how it is to be evolved and how the supply is to be main tained. You can establish all these auxiliary services without any trouble. Nearly ail of them will be in the charge of paid men, because those who are in charge of them must be capable of discharging the duties of their positions. The great problem of the militia is in regard to what are called our citizen soldiers. I agree that you cannot make the militia force what it should be and what it is in most countries where it is efficient without establishing these auxiliary services. We have to pay out the money if we are going to have them. But, that is not the difficulty and that is not the hon. gentleman's difficulty now. I call attention to that because I am not satisfied with some features of the hon. gentleman's proposal for reasons which I will give the hon. gentleman presently. I am not saying that I am at all 4204
prepared to oppose this vote or to oppose this proposal. It is my hon. friend who takes the responsibility, but I want him to be seized of the difficulty of the problem which is to raise and keep up even the skeleton, if you call 40,000 men a skeleton, and to get the reserve and keep it. Without this we will simply be wasting the money. We had better accept the doctrine of the timid member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) that we should only provide a police force and put ourselves at the mercy of any country that wishes to step in. I cannot accept that doctrine. I have been brought up in a different school. I believe that what is worth having is worth fighting for. You do not look to see what your chances are if you are a man. You will stand up any way and if you are going to lose your life you will do it in defence of what is worth fighting for. I congratulate the hon. minister on his courage at all events because it requires courage to come down and ask for this large expenditure. It requires still greater courage to admit that this is not for this year only. He has presented it in a way that is proper in such matters as this. I want to call his attention to the fact that this is laying down a wide foundation financially. The people will hold him and his colleagues accountable for it or they will give them credit for it, but the easiest part of the problem is to get the money and to spend it. The difficult problem I am coming to, and it is more than the question of the pay of the militia. Last year the hon. minister promised us a reserve sufficient to make a total of 100,000 men. I will come to that presently. He gave us to-day what I think was a rather optimistic statement of the result of this year's camp and of the state of the militia. The ranks of city regiments have always been and are filled. They have advantages in a way. At the same time you see what the Major General said ; a good deal has to be learned to prepare them for the field. The difficulty with them is the counterpart of what it is with the rural corps. They can drill and assemble together in their drill halls as often as they please, but unless they go away and do some general work they would have a hard time of it if they were turned out suddenly. That can be mended without any great difficulty, but something or other is the matter with the rural militia or else figures and numbers do not speak correctly. My attention was called to this, though I had thought of it before, more strikingly toy the remarks of the hon. member for Haldimand and Monck (Mr. Thompson). Let me say to him that it is very gratifying to find a young member of parliament, with our strong party affiliations, standing up in the way he did and expressing his views as a soldier and as a member of parliament at the same time. He stated what probably some persons might think very unpleasant truths in regard to the militia. I commend him for it and I paid

more attention to what he said on that question under the circumstances than I might otherwise have done. He talks of the state of the camp. I have taken the trouble to prepare some general figures and whatever explanation the hon. Minister of Militia may have made in defence of the Niagara or any other camp I do not think the figures bear him out. The hon. member for Haldi-mand and Monck said :
Am I not justified still further in the assumption that once let the cabinet be convinced that the militia is not even stationary but actually retrogressing this cabin 3t pledged to Britain for improvement, and it must and will gladly meet the situation and destroy the danger?
Well Sir, in all seriousness, after due consideration and recognizing the importance of the assertion, I say here to-day in my place in parliament that the militia, so far as the rural part thereof is concerned, is in infinitely worse plight to-day than it was two years ago, and that in my opinion another year under present conditions will utterly demoralize it.
The reason is not far to seek-it lies in the fifty cent daily wage.
1 do not entirely agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Thompson) that the entire cause is attributable to the pay, tout I do agree with him that the pay is too small. I approve of the suggestion of the minister that the pay should toe graded toy the number of years of service ; tout in view of the condition the force is in at present, I think it would toe wise to increase it at once to 75 cents a day for the first year, and then to scale it up according to the years of service, Like Colonel Thompson, I know the rural militia well. It is true that for some years they have not been turning out as they used to. These men do not want pay in the sense of being hired ; but, all the same, they do not like to toe out of pocket. The first-class men, and that is the kind we want, will not put up with the camp fare, and as they supplement their rations out of their own pockets, they very often f\nd that they are at a loss. It may be said that they should put up with the camp fare, tout you will find tbat men who have the spirit that the minister refers to will not do so. Even members of parliament have looked for an increased indemnity, and so it is through all walks of life ; things have changed since the 50 cents ^ day rate was established. I have the figures here for 1896 and 1897, the last year before the minister came into power and bis first year in office, and the difference is very startling.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The camp in 1896 was under my direction.


David Tisdale: The report is signed toy the Hon. Mr. Dickey.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I do not know how that can he. The camp in 1896 was not held until September.


David Tisdale: However, that does not matter much, because the previous years to 1896 would make a still worse showing for the minister. The details of the establishment ordered out in 1896 are that the officers and men called out numbered 12,710, and there turned out 11,910, or 800 short. In 1897 there were 10,719 ordered out and 9,970 responded, or a deficit of 749. The rural and the urban battalions were not distinguished in the statement presented by the minister to-day.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The criticism of my hon. friend from Haldimand was directed to the rural (battalions, and not to the city battalions.
I-Ion. Mr. TISDALE. Quite so. In 1902 tlie minister ordered out 22,897 and only 7,937 came out, and 14,960 failed to respond.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is a mistake. The number ordered out in 1902 was much smaller than the number ordered out this year. There were only 15 per compauy, instead of 21. Only one officer per company was ordered out in 1002, and this year all the officers were ordered out.
lion. Mr. TISDALE. I am taking these figures from the blue-book, which is headed ' Returns showing the number of officers, non-commissioned officers, men and horses trained during the year 1902 in district camps.' The total of officers called out "was 1,905 ; tiie non-commissioned officers and men, 20,902 ; and the total number that received twelve days' training was : Officers, 881 ; non-commissioned officers and men, ' 6,932. Then there is a summary at the end.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA' AND DEFENCE. What does the summary say ?


David Tisdale: It gives the same figures for the district camps, and it shows the turn out at local headquarters, which was a splendid one.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There must be something wrong in the heading of that statement. The fact is, no matter what the table shows, that in 1902 only 15 men out of 40 men per company were ordered out, and only one officer per company. Whoever made up that statement has made a mistake. I am very sorry that mistake has occurred ; but, as a matter of fact, less than half were called out in 1902 as compared with this year.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: If my toon, friend will permit me, I may say that in the camp at Niagara, which I think was the same as any other camp in that year, only one officer and all non-commissioned officers per company with the regimental staff, with twenty-one privates per regiment, the last named for fatigue duties only and not for drill, were called out, so the number could not possibly toe as-stated in the report.


David Tisdale: 


David Tisdale: All I can say is that that is the statement, and it should (be corrected if it is not correct.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is 'wrong, there is no doubt about that.


David Tisdale: Take the figures of this year ; 15,901 officers and men were ordered out and 12,009 turned out; that is about three-fourths.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is the usual percentage.


David Tisdale: Add to that, from the same table, the whole of the city regiments, numbering 11,754, and you have only 23,763 men out of our total force of 40,000. When you could not fill up the small call you made this year, it W'as because there were no more men that you could muster.
The MINISTER OF iMILITIA AND DEFENCE. But my hon. friend will see that we only called out 15,000 and 12,000 responded.


David Tisdale: It is my hon. friend who does not see. The fact that you called out only 15,904 shows that you had no more left or you would have filled up the ranks. If you are 25 per cent short of your number, are you going to count all those who are absent as if they were there ? Suppose you want for active service a certain number of men, and you tell the commanding officers of the different regiments to bring out so many men ; they make a call for as many men as they can get until they secure the required number.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Take the case of one company of 40 men. Of these 21 are called out. The captain of that company selects these 21 men. My hon. friend assumes that because all these did not turn out, none of the residue, if they had been asked, would have gone. That is the exception which I take to his argument.


David Tisdale: I have been a captain and a colonel, and we do not do any such thing. In that statement Colonel Thompson will bear me out. We say we want so many men, and the word goes out. The necessary number do not turn out. Would we march away without seeing if we could get any others ? Not at all.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Unfortunately, as a rule, the officers of the rural battalions, of one of which I have been a member for a quarter of a century, do not get their men until the morning they are starting for camp ; and it might be that they would not have an opportunity at the last moment of replacing those who failed to turn out.


David Tisdale: There is no use of our discussing this matter. I say that when
you want 21 men out of 45, and you go away with 5 men short, it is conclusive proof that the officers either do not know what they are about or have no other men.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is conclusive proof that five men who promised to go do not go ; that is all.


David Tisdale: The trouble with us is always to get enough men. If there were trouble something different might occur, because you could recruit new men. I know' that when the old battalion in Norfolk went to camp, the boys did not start without getting every possible man to make up the required number. The captains were humming around for ten days ; and, as Colonel Thompson complained, and I sympathize with him, ten days is too short a time.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I agree with that.


David Tisdale: Another thing, which may be due to the shortage the hon. gentleman speaks of, is that very often the battalions go into camp with half the number made up of recruits. It was not so formerly. I remember that for years Colonel Davis, the hon. gentleman's predecessor in command of the 38th and 39th -battalions, used to march to camp with 300 or 400 men, according to whether he had six or eight companies. I say you have only 12,000 men whom you can turn out in the rural districts on an ordinary call for a camp ; and your reserve, whicn was to be 60,000, amounts to only 10,000. Colonel Thompson's figures-and I agree with them-show that the rifle associations would not amount to over 10,000, apart from those belonging to the force. I speak of them from knowledge of several clubs in my own riding. The hon. gentleman spoke moderately and temperately, as he always does, because he did not want to be unduly severe in his criticism.
I say that this is an unsatisfactory and alarming condition, and the minister ought to look into the organization of these rural battalions. I hear things which he may not, but he is responsible and should take timely warning. I tell you, Sir, that the politicians are busy to-day in our militia. When I was in the active militia, the colonels in command-and; I have no doubt the hon. member for Haldimand1 (Mr. Thompson) follows the same course-were always careful to make each corps as non-partisan as possible and to give promotion to every man who deserved it without considering his politics. I was- not a member of parliament then, and we did not care anything about members of parliament. If an officer went courting favours from a member of parliament, he was not allowed to stay very long in the force. There are evidently difficulties of some sort which embarrass our

militia system, there is a lack of inducement to our young men to join the militia, as has been shown by the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Thompson) in the very temperate and measured speech which he made on this subject some time ago, and which could only have been prompted by his sense of duty and his responsibility as commander of a regiment. Whether the trouble lies in the district headquarters or whether it is the politicians who are at the bottom of it, there is an alarming state of affairs, as the hon. member for Haldimand pointed out; and if the Militia Department cannot discover the cause at headquarters, the hon. minister cannot say that he has not been warned by commanding officers and also by one who, although his time of service has passed, still takes a keen interest in the service and is always anxious to promote its efficiency.
In the speech which he made last year the hon. Minister of Militia thus referred to the report of the Major General, for that year, to which I had previously called attention :
Now, I will endeavour, very briefly to refer to some of the matters which the hon. member for South Norfolk has brought before us. In the first place, he has referred to the annual report of the Militia Department, and more particularly to the report of the Major General.
I am sure those who will take the trouble to read that report will agree with him, as I do, that he has not spoken in too high terms of praise of it. While, perhaps, in some of its details, or, possibly, in some of the conclusions of the Major General, I cannot Literally concur, I say that in the main I approve of all that he has said.
I think it is a convenient thing that the Major General, the head of the militia for the time being, should always have a free hand in placing before the people of the country his own views as a professional soldier upon the question of defence, and therefore, during my term of office, and I think it has been, the custom in the past, the Major General of the day has had a free hand to express his real and genuine views in reference to the condition of the militia of the country and in reference to what he thinks ought to be done to improve the condition of the militia.
But what I object to, and have protested against is the refusal of the hou. minister to submit to the House the special report by the general officer commanding to the minister himself. Last year the hon. minister committed himself upon the principle of giving the Major General a ' free hand to express his real and genuine views in reference to the condition, of the militia and in reference to what he thinks ought to be done to improve the condition of the militia ' as I have quoted above, and this year I find in the report of the Major General the following paragraph :
With this report I have the honour also t.o forward another special report to which I have given a great deal of thought, and which contains a broad scheme for the improvement of the militia. If the proposals contained in Hon. Mr. TISDALE.
it are carried out, they will in my opinion conduce to the greater efficiency of the militia.
I have twice before this session requested and insisted upon the minister giving the special report of Lord Dundonald, our new and distinguished Major General to the public.
Let me add that the last time I brought this matter up iu the House my hon. friend the Minister of Militia offered to show that special report to me or to any member of tbe House, but I declined to look at it. The ground I took was that it was not a confidential report, that was not declared to be confidential, and tbe Minister of Militia lias no right at his own sweet will to keep back from the members of this House or the people of this country or those associated with the force whatever propositions the Major General may have submitted. I felt indignant at the refusal to make this report public, and declined to look at what should by right be as public to tbe humblest individual as to any member of parliament. Here is what one of our great independent dailies, the Toronto ' News,' has to say :
Militia reform is fairly active at present in Canada. Yet it seems to move in spasmodic fashion on uncertain lines, and to suffer from lack of prevision and careful planning. For some time the main activity has been in the organization of the highly necessary auxiliary services. Good work has been done. The army service corps scored a brilliant success at Niagara. The bearer companies and field hospitals are excellent troops. The intelligence department has made a good start, and the ordinance corps should prove successful. Much, of course, remains to be done. The engineer arm Is almost altogether neglected, although every day of the South African war showed how indispensable it is. The general officer commanding has no engineer advice at headquarters, and there are no engineers in the permanent force, although an engineer establishment would be of the utmost value to the country for industrial as well as for militia purposes
The provision of auxiliary services falls far short of achieving the organization which the Canadian militia needs.
I commend the hon. minister for having removed some of these deficiencies by the plan he has submitted :
The unreadiness of the fighting services is appalling. For instance, it has been repeatedly pointed out that the proportions of the cavalry, artillery and infantry are absolutely wrong. One lesson of the South African war was the need for heavy guns and pom-poms. Have effective steps been taken to give our artillery these weapons ? The machine gun is indispensable in the field. When Canada sent, an infantry battalion to South Africa, she provided it with two maxims. The second contingent had an automatic gun for each squadron. Yet we have not provided our militia infantry with one machine gun to each battalion. Worse than that-were our battalions to be called out at war strength, it is doubtful whether we could give our men a rifle apiece. We should have an ample supply of ammunition in the country. It is doubtful whether we have more than is needed for target practice.

Many of those defects will be removed by this comprehensive scheme which my hon. friend 1ms brought down, but in this scheme the hon. minister points to something more which the Major General is considering, and what I protest against is that we are called on to vote three and three-quarter million dollars without being informed what the views of the Major General are. The ' News ' proceeds to say :
The list of defects in our force could bo p~o-longed at will. Definiteness and coherence of plan constitute the grand need. We do not wish our militia to find themselves ill-armed-or unarmed-and in hopeless confusion when mobilized. We should go about the work as methodically as we would about the building of a new railway	
It is precisely in this respect that Canada has shown a singular lack of business method. We have an excellent expert. Lord Dundonald is by far the best general officer commanding Canada ever has had. His particular characterise:; is the absence on his part of any desire to professionalize the militia. Ho has not the slightest wish to set up a little army of imitation regulars. He wishes to establish a system for turning out rftal citizen soldiers when the need comes. The great feature of all his suggestions which have been made public is their common sense and the way in which they fit into one another-that is, their coherence.
This expert has prepared a carefully thought-out scheme of organization. We may take it for granted that it is a coherent plan, each part depending on and fitting into the other parts. His propositions have been coolly suppressed. The people of Canada have employed Lord Dundonald and they are not allowed to learn what he recommends. The only excuse put forward is that his report is ' confidential.' That is nonsense. Strategical plans may be kept secret, organization cannot. Lord Dundonald's report, according to the portion which was published, deals with organization, not with strategical plans. It should he placed before the people.
Until we know what our expert has proposed, we are working and spending money in the dark. Piecemeal additions, the raising of new corps here and there, are not sufficient. Coherence of purpose and plan is needed.There is a short way to getting that. Let us know what Lord Duu-donald recommended.
Then :
The ' Canadian Military Gazette,' after remarking that the Canadian soldier needs training, and is anxious to secure it, ' The Gazette ' quotes Lord Dundonald's statement that the ' Canadian soldier takes the greatest interest in anything which his intelligence proves to him is of real practical benefit.' It goes on to say : ' This makes it all the more important that the special report of the General Officer Commanding should not be kept in the pigeon holes of the department at Ottawa. The intelligent Canadian soldier wants to digest it.' ' The Gazette ' speaks in high terms of Lord Dundonald, and observes :	' If the
special reports of experts like Lord Dundonald are to be suppressed, what is the use of placing an expert in the position of General Officer Commanding. We are simply wasting our money and making ourselves the laughing stock of intelligent people.'
This places the matter in a nutshell. We employ an excellent officer, we get him to draw
up a scheme of organization, which, if tried, could not possibly be kept secret, and then we suppress it. For a democratic people we are getting fairly far on the road to autocracy.
Now, I commend these expressions to the minister. I hope be will publish this report. Let us see it; let the people understand it. The bon. gentleman is lessening bis own usefulness as-head of the force, as well as hurting the feelings of officers and men of the militia, by not letting them know what this report contains. Nor is it just to the general. It is not respectful to the intelligent people of this country that such a state of tilings should exist. If the report were confidential in anyway or could be considered so, the general would certainly have so stated.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tisdale) says that the report to which he refers says it was not confidential. It may not have been marked ' confidential ' but I think I am the best judge whether it was confidential or not. The report was a scheme of defence, and was not, in my judgment, such a report as should be published to the world. When I referred to a former report it was to that of General O'Grady Haly, but the very nature of my observations shows that I referred to the ordinary report of the year reviewing the work of the militia of the year. We have done the same tiling with Lord Dundonald In this case. He had a free hand. He said what he wanted to say. Not a word has been changed, not a ' t ' crossed or an ' i ' dotted in change of liis report. But, besides this, he made a special report, involving a very large expenditure. That report came into my band twenty-four hours before the whole report had to go to the printer. I had not read it or submitted it to my colleagues, and it would have been out of the question that such a report as that should have been sent to the printer to be published to the world before the minister should have an opportunity of considering it. I have kept that report in my own hands. I have used it and am using it. It was an official report for the advantage of the government of the country. There are parts of it that will be published; I shall have great pleasure in publishing them. But so far as that report involves a heavy expenditure which the government had not decided to make I felt it would he highly improper to publish it. that it is a thing that would not be done in England or anywhere else.


Andrew B. Ingram: What did the hon. gentleman (Hon. Sir Frederick Borden) say was the nature of this report ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I said it was practically a scheme of defence. We had a committee sitting here in 1898. for which we paid a very considerable sum of money, which made a

report which has never seen the light of day. It was printed by the Defence Committee under the imperial government. It is something secret. Lord Dundonald's report was of a similar character, and one that at any rate for the time being should he treated as confidential.


Andrew B. Ingram: Lord Dundonald said it was a broad scheme for the improvement of the militia. If it is this as well as the other, why not publish the part of it that can be published ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have said that that would be done, and I have given part of it to-day.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman used it in his own speech. But that is not very satisfactory to hon. gentlemen on this side who have had no opportunity to read this report. How can we discuss it when we have had no opportunity to read it ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No one on this side has had it.


Andrew B. Ingram: Except the hon. minister himself.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Who ever heard of a minister not having the advantage, and, if he saw fit, the exclusive advantage at the outset, of the advice of his principal technical officer ? Who ever heard of the government not having that advantage ? And who ever heard of such an officer's report being published to the world before the government had had an opportunity of deciding whether they would adopt the suggestion set forth in it or not ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I was pointing out the effect of this course. The Major General, who is the chief officer of the Militia Department, makes a certain report to the department. That report is treated as a strictly private matter. The minister may differ very materially from the Major General with respect to the contents of that report. But I think parliament should be in a position to say which, in our judgment, is right.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) thinks it is in accordance with the principles and practice of responsible government that an official of the Militia Department should have the right to put forward his views to the people before the minister has made up his mind whether he will adopt those views or not ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I will go so far as to say that there is no usfc having an expert military man come to this country for the purpose of suggesting what would be in the interests of the militia if his recommendations are not carried out.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I take the responsibility.


Robert Laird Borden: 


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: I would like to ask the hon. member for South Norfolk (Hon. Mr. Tisdale) a question if he will allow me. I did not quite understand his remarks regarding politics entering the militia. Did I understand him to say that this was one cause why the force was not in as good a condition as it might be V


David Tisdale: No. I said I thought it worth the minister's while to be careful, to make inquiries lest such a thing might exist; and that if it did exist it might explain some matters that we could not explain otherwise. Now, I would say just one word in reply to the minister. According to my idea the hon. gentleman was not' quite correct in his reference to the Major General. The Major General is not an officer of the department; he is commander pf the militia. The minister is responsible for his actions, and above him, but


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think he is an officer of the Canadian government.


David Tisdale: He is. But the hon. minister said he was an officer of the department


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Well, he is. He is certainly not controller of the department, not the 'boss' of the department-not now, at any rate.


David Tisdale: The hon. minister told us to-day of his arrangement about the stores department. I said I commended the hon. gentleman for his arrangement for the ordnance stores department. But if the position of the Major General in regard to it is to be circumscribed, friction will arise, and the arrangement will be of little good. I laid it down before and I do it now that the general is under the minister. The minister is under our system responsible. His position is political.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is right.


David Tisdale: And the minister cannot divest himself of that responsibility.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is right.


David Tisdale: When we use the word political,' we use it in the sense in whicli the hon. member for Haldimand and* Monck uses it. But this matter is different.
I cannot be satisfied without an assurance from the hon. minister that the Major General would ever have put in his general report what he did about the special report unless he were perfectly willing that the hon. minister should show it anywhere, because, judging from what I have heard of him from all quarters, he is the last man who would do anything else. I believe the Major General put that in there not to decide whether it was to be used or not, but to 1 let it be known that he did so. There was

one thing that I forgot to mention in my remarks, and that was the singular absence from his report of any mention of the scheme in regard to the reserve, &c., outlined by the hon. minister. That is the reason X read that little clause where he made the single remark about putting every regimental establishment on a war footing and stating that within each unit there would be the germ of a reserve. I knew that the Major General had written something else about that, and it must have been in the report originally, because I saw a Major General's report so barren of reference to the strength of the different establishments and no mention at all of a reserve except in, this one little paragraph, notwithstanding that this was the most fruitful of all subjects upon which he could have written. Of course, it is not for him to dictate to the hon. minis-! ter, nor will he attempt to do so. However, the hon. minister takes the responsibility, and if he sees fit, he has the might to do so, but in my opinion it is not a case where 1 might will make right ', but 'I think it is a great mistake if the Major General is to be made an automaton. If he has anything to suggest to the minister, let us know what he says when it comes to the regulation of the militia. We want a man, and we have got him for a Major General, and it is a grave step for the minister to repress his special report to which he says he has 'given a great deal of thought and which, contains a broad scheme for the improvement of the militia. If the proposals contained in it are carried out they will in my opinion conduce to the greater efficiency of the militia.'


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think my hon. friend will agree with me that the proper means of communication with this House and with the country from the Major General is through the mouth of the minister, particularly when there is a question of policy involved.


David Tisdale: Certainly, it must be through the minister's mouth.


Mr. WARD.: Mr. Chairman, while I am ready and willing to admit that there are many admirable features of this scheme which have been outlined by the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence to the committee, I must confess also that I feel great disappointment, as I am sure every other member of the militia force-at least, that portion of the militia force which is included in the infantry-will feel that the matter has not been dealt with that bravery that we would naturally expect from the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence. I refer to increased pay for the men. We bear a great deal from the hon. minister's side of the House about the growing times. We hear of every department of the public service benefiting by these growing times. Almost every -branch of the militia service, according to the hon. minister's own statement, is feeling the benefit of these growing times, and yet what are the boue and sinew of the defence of this country to get from the great expenditure of money that these hon. gentlemen are indulging in?-not one dollar, not one cent. I propose, as far as I can, in my humble way, to bring to the attention of the hon. minister some matters which I venture to hope may at least change his opinions a little, though they may not change his actions. I would first refer to some of the comparisons which the hon. minister has made in his speech to the committee, and which, I think, are not exactly fair. In the first place, reference has been made by the hon. minister to the percentages of the attendance at the district camps, by way of comparison, in the years 1900 and 1903. I am sure the hon. minister must have forgotten that in 1900 the full strength of the different regiments was called into camp.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is just why I made the comparison. I said, to show that the system adopted this year has not been such a terrible failure, I will take a year when the full force was called out, and I will prove that the percentage of attendance this year of those called out is as good, if not better, than the percentage of the whole force when it was called out. That was the point.


Henry Alfred Ward: I think the hon. minister's point is not well taken, because the percentage in 1900 was of the whole force of the militia which was called into camp, while the percentage taken for this present year is only based on the estimate that twenty-one men belonging to the different companies were called into camp. Therefore, the percentage, based on the whole force, would not have the same effect, it seems to me, as the percentage based on balf the strength.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Oh, yes; just thd same.


Henry Alfred Ward: I will try and convince the hon. minister that it is not so.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The percentage in 1900 was calculated by me as the percentage of those who attended relatively to the total number of the militia called out. The percentage this year was the ratio of the number who attended to the number called out.


Henry Alfred Ward: Certainly, that is exactly what I say. If it was so difficult in this present year to get even the same percentage of half the strength, surely there must be something wrong. It was not so difficult in 1900 and in the years preceding that to get the same percentage of the full strength as it is now we get the same percentage^ of half the strength. There must be something wrong if we cannot induce men to go to

camp to make 25 per cent or 50 per cent of tlie strength with the number called out this year, which was only 21 men to a company. In regard to that, I simply want to give the hon. minister a little of the experience I have had in my own regiment. But, before I go into that, I wish to point out to the hon. minister how unfair I believe the comparison to be which he made. We will take, for instance, military districts Nos. 3 and 4, which assembled at Kingston. It is very well known that about one-third of the number of men at Kingston consisted of cavalrymen, and I think it is well known that nearly every troop or squadron of cavalry was full strength at Kingston. In instituting that comparison he should have left out the cavalry and taken into account the infantry alone. It is not a fair comparison when you take troops, each squadron of which had its full strength, and add that to .the number of those who had suffered by reason of want of pay. In regard to cavalry, I wish to state that in my own county we have had a great deal of trouble in keeping up the full strength which is called for, that is, one-quarter of the strength of the regiment.
It is well known to every militiaman that the cavalry and artillery are more favourably treated by the Militia and Defence Department than the infantry. Take for instance the cavalry squadrons that were recruited in my own county. I know as a matter of fact that the officers of that cavalry regiment went through two townships in my county and secured all the horses they wanted for fifty cents per day. These horses were secured for the men of the cavalry squadrons who were not owners of horses and very few of the members were in this position. The consequence of this was that the men of that cavalry regiment almost to a man received a dollar a day and the horses were paid for at the rate of fifty cents per day. That is what I have to contend with in my county and there is no doubt that where men can secure one dollar a day by going into the cavalry they will always prefer it to serving in the infantry for 50 cents. I wish to point out to the minister what appears to me and to many others an absurdity, that one dollar a day should be allowed for a horse and only fifty cents for a man. The hon. minister has stated that he knows of men paying out one dollar and one dollar and a half a day for horses. That may be perfectly time in cities where wealthy gentlemen join tlie mounted infantry and will pav any price for a horse which will make a good appearance. I can assure the hon. minister that in the country-and I do not think my county an exception-any number of horses can be procured at fifty cents a day. It seems to me that the cavalry and artillery are placed on a higher basis altogether than the infantry and it is therefore impossible Mr. WARD.
to secure men to fill up the different companies of infantry even if these companies are called upon to take only one-third of their strength into camp. I had almost persuaded two young men in the county to iake two lieutenancies in my regment, but finally they refused altogether to go into the regiment simply because it was utterly impossible to get the men at fifty cents a day and they said it was a perfect farce for them to attempt to pose as officers when they could not have the men. I mention these facts only in order that the minister may take them into consideration. It may be too late to do anything this year but next year when we may have a Bill making some changes in the rate of pay of the militia the minister might consider this matter favourably. I can only say that the proposition of the minister to add five cents per year of service to the daily pay of the men who have served more than one year would be utterly inadequate.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I did not mention the sum ; I-certainly would not think of five cents being sufficient.


Henry Alfred Ward: I think the minister has stated that on previous occasions.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Nothing less than ten cents I think. ,


Henry Alfred Ward: Even with ten cents it would require three years to entitle a man to the pay of eighty cents per day. I can only say from my own experience in the county which I have the honour to represent and in which I command a regiment, that unless something is done this, as the hon. member for Haldimaud (Mr. Thompson) has said, is only the beginning of the disintegration of the rural corps.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: I have listened with much interest to the debate that has taken place and to the statement of the Minister of Militia and Defence which contains many propositions that I think will meet with the hearty approval of the country at large. I believe that a careful investigation into the conditions of the rural corps will demonstrate that there is a manifest decadence in the military ardour of the young men of this country compared with that of fifteen, twenty or twenty-five years ago. There must be some cause for this. In the county where I live the officers of the various companies find it difficult to get a contingent of men to go to camp for the annual drill although in former years they had no difficulty. One of the causes, I presume, is the very insufficient pay given to the men. Fifty cents per day is so ridiculously small that it does not come up to what might be called an indemnity. Had it not been that the county council of the county in which I live have added to that rate of pay twenty-

five cents per man, year after year, the corps would not be in as good condition as it now is. I have been a member of the county council for years and every time that question came up there was opposition to it on the ground that the municipal council having no authority or control over the volunteers, it was the duty of the federal government to pay the men, although it was generally admitted that the present rate is very far from being sufficient. There may be other causes. When the young men see the condition in which the drill halls erected twenty-five or thirty years ago are to-day, wrecks and ruins in all parts of the country, they must be impressed with the thought that the government have but little interest in the rural corps. They see that while large sums are spent in cities for building large and expensive armouries, the drill halls throughout tlie: country are allowed to go to ruin. In the town where I live there is a large drill hall, and in connection with it a well fitted armoury in which arms and clothing could be well stored were it not for the fact that the roof is bad. The officers of the district have made appeals again and again for sufficient money to make the roof tight but without success so that the armoury is practically useless for purposes of storage.
The proposal of the minister that the pay of the men should be graded in proportion to the number of annual drills they have put in will meet with the hearty approval of the House and of the country at large. It is a fact that on many occasions when the officers of a company desire to make up a contingent they have to pick up a few loose men who happen to be out of employment. These men of course enlist for three years, but, when the next camp comes around they may not be in the country. That they should be paid at the same rate as men who have put in two, three, five or even ten annual drills is absurd and ridiculous. As it is now they receive the same rate as men who have learned their drill and who have had sufficient interest in military matters to go to camp year after year. An increase of ten or even twenty cents a day would be inadequate, and I think that; this matter should be met in a fairly generous and liberal spirit. There is sufficient military spirit in this country to justify the additional expense that would be involved in paying a fair rate for the few days annual drill so as to give the men a reasonable indemnity and tend to arouse to some extent the military ardour of the young men of Canada. I think that something might perhaps be done with regard to the encouragement of rifle ranges throughout the country. The city corps have the advantage over the rural corps in this respect. It will be admitted by the minister also, that the armament of the rural corps cannot very well be dispensed with. You can get good companies in the city and have them turn out well, because they have better advantages for assembling and for constant drill. But yet, in the rural corps you have men who in wars such as the recent war in South Africa have already learned the art, or who from boyhood up, have handled a rifle and are naturally good shots. The members of the rural corps have also that resource which perhaps men accustomed to city life have not; they possess that initiative which is so necessary in military work at the present day. Therefore, in view of the decadence in the ardour and military spirit which characterized the rural corps in the past, I appeal to the minister that there should be a careful inquiry made into its causes.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: On the 30th of June last I made some rather extended remarks upon the Canadian militia, and on looking up that speech I find I prefaced it by saying :
At this late date in the session I will not speak at any great length.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: If I had that feeling at that time, you can readily understand that since July, August and September have taken to themselves wings, and now that October is speedily following in their wake, I shall not ask this committee to listen to me at any length at all, and especially so in view of the very excellent and extended addresses of the Minister of Militia and of the gentlemen who spoke after him. I shall not attempt to touch in detail the many points which the minister raised, but I shall rather confine myself for five or ten minutes to a discussion of that, to my mind very important point, an increase of pay for the rural militia. I have the most excellent feeling of friendliness for the Minister of Militia, and I believe I am not altogether lacking in discipline in the party as in the army.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: I will say, however, that I have not got up to apologize for what I said with regard to the rural militia, nor yet to recant because I did not study that question so much from the books as I did from the actual camps themselves. I have been there ; I have seen. Referring, in order, to what the minister said : First of all, as to this large expenditure of $1,300,000. I believe that this is an excellent thing, and, with the member for South Norfolk (Hon. Mr. Tisdale), I join in congratulating the minister upon his courage in making the announcement of this vote, not apologetically, as we are so accustomed to do when dealing with militia matters in this country, but bravely and boldly, as if he had something to be proud of-as I think he had in making that statement. I compliment the minister that he was further courageous enough to

go on and say that this rote would not be for one year only, but might even be for five years in succession. The minister has told us to-day, what many of us knew before ; he told us that we have in Canada something less than 40,000 arms of modern make-referring, of course, to the rifles. We all know that supply would ibe inadequate in case of serious trouble. We know that our militia is formed on the skeleton basis -that is a word that I did not coin myself ; it is a well-known word in the militia-and that in case of war we would expect to increase our companies from a strength of 42 to 125 in all. What would be the use of increasing these companies to 125 men if you only had 42 rifles for the 125 men ? The other fellows could not light very well with pitchforks and clubs, and therefore you must furnish each of these men with a rifle. I therefore say that the minister is doing no more than his duty, and this government is doing no more than its duty, in voting even a considerable sum, such as this, towards furnishing this increased armament, which will put one rifle in the hands of one man for whatever force we may find it necessary to put iu the field in case of trouble. The same thing applies to the armament of the artillery, with which, however, I am not quite so conversant. I believe, Sir, that every cent of this expenditure will be justified ; that not one cent of it will be found fault with by the intelligent electors of Canada. It does seem to me rather a pity, however, that when we are expending this comparatively large sum. we cannot add just a little more to it. It would not look very much added on to' the end of that $1,300,000 -or to the end of $3,750,000, which I understood the member for South Norfolk to say will be the total expenditure of the Militia Department for all purposes this year-


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Including public works.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: Including, of course, the drill sheds, which really are a militia expenditure as much as anything else. I gave figures to prove, and I believe that these figures are unquestioned, that by paying one dollar per day instead of fifty cents per day to all the militia men of Canada, it would only cost something like $225,000 additional ; and that if the increase of pay applied only to the rural militia, it would cost about half that amount.
I gave reasons why there might fairly be a difference made between the rural and city corps in regard to pay. I would not weary the House by repeating my argument at length on that point, but one of the main reasons which might commend itself to the common sense of every hon. gentleman here is that city soldiers all perform their drill at night, when their day's wage has been earned, whereas the country soldier leaves his home for twelve whole days in the year. The question of pay is much Mr. THOMPSON (Haldimand).
more important to the rural soldier than to the city soldier. More than that, one point which I made, and which cannot be satisfactorily answered, is this : The city soldier is not troubled about the question of pay, the best evidence of which is that he does not draw his pay. If you had your city regiments but half filled up, and if the men that did go into these regiments drew their pay, it might be fair to argue that the low pay was responsible for the depletion of the ranks of the city corps. But when you find these city corps full to overflowing, and the men in the ranks not even drawing their pay, but turning it into a central fund for the purpose of a holiday on Thanksgiving Day, or the 24th of May, or the 1st of July ; then I say that the pay is not at all a question with the city men. My object is not to fill anybody's pocket, but to fill the regiments of this country with men, as they should be filled ; and, therefore, if the city regiments are already filled by the pay they have got, I have enough respect for these city regiments, enoygh confidence in their loyalty to the militia; to hold the theory that they would be the first to say : If our country brethren must have half a dollar more than we, in order to have good country regiments, give them the half dollar a day, it does not affect us at all. I do not believe in there being any jealousy between the city corps and the country corps ; I do believe in the esprit de corps of the whole force, and I have reason for my belief in a long personal experience. Now, Sir, there is more than one thing to consider in regard to the camps of instruction, when you come to the question of the men who attend them. It is always a dangerous thing simply to count noses ; you have to look to the quality of the men, and I want to say that from the experience I had iin two "camps this year-and I think my brother officers will bear me out-not only were the regiments much under strength, but the physique of the men who did go into camp was so inferior that in actual active service, a very large percentage of these men would never be able to make a campaign. .1 do not believe that in this commercial country of Canada you can get a $1.50 man for 50 cents. It is all very well to talk about loyalty and patriotism calling the men into the ranks. Canada has just as much patriotism as any other country. Let a war, or a serious danger, menace this country, and you will find the fellows flocking to the colours. But we are talking now of a peace footing ; a preparation in time of peace for a possible state of war, and I say that it is nothing against a man's patriotism that he does not want to go into camp for 50 cents a day when he earns $1.50 by remaining at home.
I would like to ask : How many members of this hon. House hold His Majesty's commission ? Not 3 per cent. And would any gentleman say that the members of this House, who are not members of the militia,

are disloyal because they are not in the ranks ? Not at all. Being in the ranks of the active militia is no proof of loyalty, disloyalty, patriotism or the reverse.
But we are living in a commercial age.
1 understood the minister himself to say that he believed in indemnifying the soldiers. He did not believe that a young Canadian who went to camp should want to make money, but he believed he should be indemnified. As I understand the word * indemnify,' it means to save from loss. How can a man who earns $1.50 a day be indemnified on 50 cents a day ? He is just a dollar short. Therefore I say that the present pay does not indemnify the men at all. I do not believe that we require to raise the pay of soldiers to an equality with that of men in commercial life ; but we have to approximate it. Give the boys a dollar a day, and the ranks will be filled, and not with the class of men we have at present, a considerable proportion of whom are unfit, but with the best young men that can be got in our country. The Major General Commanding has recommended, the minister has adopted the recommendation, and it has been decided, not to call out the full strength of our force each year, but only about one-half of it. One hundred thousand men, I believe, are to be the total militia force. Of these 60,000 are not to be called out at all, but are to be enrolled as a reserve subject to call in time of war ; and each man is to be given a rifle and trained in rifle shooting. Of the other 40,000 the minister proposes to call out all the city corps and about half the country corps. The remaining half of the country corps are I fear in limbo. They are betwixt and between. If only one-half are to be called out, what a, bagatelle it would be to give them $1 a day. It would only amount to one-half the figures I have already given to the House. It would cut down the cost to 14 cents per head of the population of Canada. I estimated that it would cost four cents per head to give $1 a day to the whole force, or two and one-half cents per head to give $1 a day to the whole rural force. If you only call out half the rural force, one and one-fourth cents for every man woman and child in Canada, would give the men a fair wage, and would fill our regiments to overflowing with the best bone and sinew of the country. It is not much to ask. I know that the minister has it not in his power to increase the pay of the militia. That is regulated by the Militia Act. But we in this House have power to amend that Act, and I believe that next session a new Act is to be introduced. If so, one thing we should see to is that power is given to the minister of the day to regulate the pay of the soldiers, so that it will bear some proportion to the current rate of wages in commercial life. I am rather sorry that the whole force is not going to be called out every year. Iam afraid speaking from experience, that such a turnout as is here indicated will not encourage that spirit in the officers which will bring good men into the officers' mess. The average captain does not want to have simply three or four men trailing behind him. He wants to have a fair company, and the colonel wants to have a regiment to command which is somewhat larger than a large company. You have to consider the effect this system will have on the men. The minister has very properly said that the militia officers must be educated men. That is true ; but you have first to have your militia officer before you can begin this process of education ; and unless you give the officer something to be proud of in his unit, you are not going to get him to join the force. I believe that is what this is coming to. Therefore, I regret that the whole force is not to be called out. But time will tell. There are those who say we can get along well enough on the present pay. I do not think so. I believe that if you took a poll of the present militia force, you would find 99 per cent of the officers in favour of paying at least 75 cents a day, and nearly as many preferring $1 per day. It is all very well to talk of grading the pay ; but even then you must give the men enough to get them in the first year before you can have them in the second or the third year. This is to be a kind of corps d'elite ; as the minister says, they are to be selected men. If we are to get rid of a certain percentage of men who are not by any means selected, and to get these selected men on the roll, I really think it will be necessary to pay $1 a day. If you just want ordinary men, 75 cents a day might do. But if you are going to get the class of men we should have, when you are cutting the number down one-half, they should be paid at least $1 a day. Now, I believe I have already transgressed the time limit. I understand, that the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes), whose speeches are always instructive, is to follow. I believe I misled him in saying that I was going to speak only a short time, and therefore I tender him my sincere apology.


Mr. HUGHES (North Victoria).: I do not on this occasion intend to make any extended remarks. There were a number of questions which I desired during the session to bring before the minister and the Hpuse ; but with that usual fatality which characterizes such intentions, the remarks are put off to the end of the session, and the session closes, and there is nothing done. However, I have taken the liberty and the opportunity of conversing with the minister from time to time, and, although we are politically opposed, and he is a great warrior, none of us on this side of the House are afraid to approach him to lay suggestions before him for the benefit of the militia ; and I am glad to say that he is always

ready to receive those suggestions in the kindest manner. I will just run over a tew points which I propose discussing.
I want to supplement what my bon. friend from Haldimand (Mr. Thompson) stated; about the importance of having an esprit de corps in any camp. The various corps this year marched out from their quarters to the brigade camps, and there was scarcely a regiment headed by its band. The scattered few collected from each company fell in at the battalion headquarters, and took the back streets to the station, carrying their knapsacks and rifles, and got into the train as quietly as possible ; and they came back in the same way. That is not the way a regiment should go into camp.
Another thing I wish to speak of are the pensions to those who were seriously injured in the South African war. I hare already had the honour of bringing this subject twice before the minister this session, and he promised to give it his consideration. There are many young men. It is not necessary for me to speak at length on this question, as we have had it up twice before this session. There are many young men in Canada whose claims should be considered in this connection, notably one who had both eyes shot out, and others with both arms shot off, another with his leg shot off. These young men, by reason of their wounds, have lost their positions, and have practically to depend on their pensions. I am satisfied that the country will endorse the Minister of Militia if he takes the same bold stand on this matter that he has taken on other matters, and insists on the Minister of Finance giving him a grant to supplement for all time to come the pensions which the British government is paying to these men. I am sure the hon. gentleman need not. fear the hon. member for I.abelle (Mr. Bourassa) in doing so, for the hon. gentleman's bark, as every one knows, is worse than his bite'. I purposed discussing at considerable length the permanent corps and the basis on which it is established.
I withdrew a notice of motion which I had on the order paper regarding rifle practice in the schools of this Dominion, but nevertheless my opinion is that every boy of the age of eighteen should be trained in the use of the rifle. If Canada had her young men trained to-day in miniature rifle practice, not the long range-because as I have again and again pointed out those of us who learned shooting in the old days learned it, not with the long range rifle but with the old muzzle loading Lee-Enfield with a snap-cap-we would in ten years be invincible. There is a most excellent device in the department whereby one can test the accuracy of his aim. If these machines could be obtained cheaply enough, they would be capital things to have at the headquarters of every company in order that the boys might learn rifle shooting. If our youth were trained in this


James Joseph Hughes: practice, the entire forees of the United States could not make an invasion of Canada which would be effective for twenty-four hours.
I purposed also discussing the position of the permanent officers of the force, such as the district officers commanding, and the district staff adjutants, and the functions they should perform. They are very excellent officers indeed, but in order to carry out to the letter the plan of the minister and the idea he has in forming his brigades and divisions, it is absolutely necessary that retired officers who have passed the age limit and have served five years in command of regiments-and who are the men who, in time of trouble, will command the army corps-should be given an opportunity of gaining experience in that service. The question of the pay of the officers and men I also purposed discussing at length.
I notice in the estimates that the hon. minister proposes to have monuments erected on some battle fields, including the battle field of Fort Erie. I commend this expenditure and would suggest that he should lose no time in placing these monuments on every battle field. We should have monuments at Chateauguay and Chrysler's Farm, and various other historic grounds. I do not know that Queenston Heights has any monument except that erected to General Brock. But that was not erected by the Canadian government. There is nothing better calculated to inspire in the youth of our country loyalty and love for their native land than these records of great deeds of valour. I have no doubt that the monument at the city hall in this city, commemorating the men who fell in South Africa stirs in the hearts of our rising population the throb of patriotism-the noblest sentiment that can actuate men.
I also purposed saying a few words in connection with the Ross rifle, and I did purpose drawing attention to some remarks contained in the report of the intercolonial conference on that subject. Although I am a Britisher and have endeavoured to prove myself so to the core, still I do not believe that the British war office should dictate to the people of the Dominion what rifle they should use. I believe that our people are perfectly qualified to select for themselves. The hon. minister has rightly taken the precaution that the bore of the rifle which we use shall be the same as that of the imperial rifle, and that the ammunition for the Boss rifle shall be the same as that used in the imperial army.
I want to say this

and I have had the opportunity to obtain as good knowledge of rifles as most men of the community-that in so far as the action of the Ross rifle is concerned, I consider it much ahead of any other rifle yet manufactured. I had the privilege of meeting the inventor of this action just after the South African war, and in discussing the defects of the present

British rifle, I pointed out what I .considered three serious defects. He asked me if I would be good enough to go and see the arm he invented. I did so and he showed me the Ross rifle of which I had hitherto heard nothing, and in that rifle each of the three defects that I pointed out have been removed. I therefore have no hesitation in endorsing the Ross rifle,
I also purposed saying a few words with reference to the military college and intended touching on the water suppply. I have learned, however, since that a new system of purifying the water supply is about to be introduced there, a similar plan to that adopted in Winnipeg. The Winnipeg water comes from Bake Manitoba underground! and goes through a purifying process which rids it of alkali.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is the Philadelphia system which is adopted in the college.


Samuel Hughes: That is on the same principle, but the system used in the college would not suit at all. However, the hon. minister will no doubt succeed in getting pure water. I am satisfied that the best way would be to have a pump station on Garden Island and force the water over to the college.
I purposed discussing the advisability of having inland arsenals to be placed as far inland as convenient from the frontier, so that in case of war we would not be liable to have them cut off. We ought to have two or three establishments for the manufacture of ammunition, owing to the peculiar nature of our country and also owing to the fact that the new transcontinental road is not yet constructed. That would give a supply of ammunition to the great centres of the Dominion in case of trouble. Talk of your pom-poms and big guns, but after all it is the rifle and the Maxim guns that unman the enemy and empty the saddles.
I commend also the item in relation to the military survey and the establishment of the intelligence branch. I congratulate the hon. minister and the major general commanding on having secured an able officer, Colonel Dennison, to take command of that department. He has proved himself a most efficient officer, wherever he has been, especially in South Africa. The only fault I would find is with the smallness of the sum which the hon. minister is asking. In keeping up a militia system, we must always recognize that our neighbours to the south are an aggressive race, just as we are, and we must always bear in mind . that the possibility may arise some time of war between Canada and the United States. I have a paper in my desk of a fire-eating nature, but not very dangerous, which was sent me from the wild and woolly west. This paper is published in Kansas. It suggests that the American government should
settle this Alaska boundary business by simply gobbling up Canada.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: They would have a hot time doing it.


Samuel Hughes: Undoubtedly, the Nova Scotia and Ontario boys would give a gcod account of themselves. The point I wish to make is this-that every foot of land upon the border between Canada and the United States, as well as the country for a considerable distance this side of the border, should be surveyed, and maps should! be made so as to be at the disposal of officers and men in case of war. I have before me the report of the military commission in Great Britain. Every one knows that at the beginning of the South African war Great Britain had no maps even of her own Cape Colony and Natal. We had to go through by pure guesswork. It was my privilege to be intelligence officer to two columns in that war. I never found a map that was of service. It was far better to take the data furnished by people who had travelled over the country, and of Kaffirs and others who lived in various localities. After a time we were able to get hold of a number of the Boer maps of the Transvaal, Orange Free State, and other parts. These were all scaled and made up with the greatest nicety. I commend the step that the minister proposes. But the amount will need to be greatly increased year by year in order that the country may be surveyed and these maps prepared.
I do not apologize to the House or to the country for saying that we should be ready to meet the United) Staets. I believe in being friendly with our friends to the south. I have always been friendly with them and respected them. But there is no use in shutting our eyes to the fact that there is an element there, as there is in every country, that is antagonistic to their neighbours. That element _very nearly asserted itself under President Cleveland. In carrying out the laws of this country, laws recognized by the government of the United States, a thieving Yankee ship was captured in British waters while engaged in taking fish that rightly belonged to our own fishermen. President Cleveland called upon the governors of the several states along the border to know how many men they could throw upon the Canadian border inside of a week.


An hon. MEMBER.: Was that despatch published ?


Samuel Hughes: It was a private message. Nobody knew anything about it. it was entirely secret. They went from governor to governor of these states, and it was found that they could not put 50,000 men on the Canadian border inside of two weeks. Otherwise the chance is fifty to one that trouble would have been sprung upon us at that time without notice. We

might as well let it be known frankly, as Palmerston did on one occasion, that we have rights and are prepared to defend them. We have boys who know how to nse firearms, and I trust that in a short time we shall have officers in great numbers trained to take command of these lads. And, if once that status is arrived at, any enemy, I care not who, will hesitate long before they will set foot across the Canadian border.
I purposed also taking up a very delicate subject, a rule that has been promulgated that, for the future, no lieutenant in the permanent force shall marry without the permission of the bead of the department. I would suggest that a better way of meeting this question would be for the Minister of Militia and Defence to increase the pay of these permanent corps officers, so that every one of them can support the little girl of his choice in, at all events, a fair degree of comfort. And as soon as any of these boys finds the young lady who, he thinks, would be fit to become his partner in life, he should be encouraged to take such a partner rather than debarred from doing so.
Another point that I purposed touching upon -at some length, if opportunity had offered, was the question of medals to the first men of the fourth contingent who went to South Africa. X would just point out to the minister that these men had reached Cape Town harbour. They went to South Africa in full expectation of engaging actively in the war. Disaster had fallen on British arms and the hearts of all these men beat high in the hope of being able to serve their country in the field. They reached Table Bay; they were within the three-mile limit and would have landed had not orders been received sending them around to Durban. I maintain that the minister would be justified in insisting on the British government recognizing the claims of these men. It was while they were proceeding under orders to Durban peace was declared. If the rule is enforced as now proposed, these men will be deprived of the only recognition, the only remuneration, that many of them coveted for their services in South Africa.
I also pui-posed taking up the question of the permanent corps, as contrasted with the rural corps, and the rural corps as contrasted with the city corps. But time will not permit me to do so on this occasion, and so I shall defer it until another time.
The question of pay is an important one. As the hon. minister knows, this matter was brought up by me early in the session. I suggested that, in all fairness to the men, the pay should be increased and graded. I believe that 50 cents per day should be tbe pay for the first year and increased by 25 cents for the subsequent years. Suppose that that had been brought into force, in the coming year a man would receive 75 cents per day. In the third year be would


Samuel Hughes: receive St per day, with a corresponding increase for non-commissioned ranks. I do not think the country would mind the expenditure much, and I think the minister would do well to look at that aspect of the case. However, I will take that up at greater length on another occasion. For many years I have objected to a horse being paid SI per day in camp and a man being paid only 50 cents per day in camp. If the minister is going to graduate the pay of a man, let him graduate the pay of a horse. Pay the horse that comes into camp for training 50 cents per day. The horse that comes in for a second year for training and is partly familiar with the bridle and knee-action, let it be paid 75 cents per day ; and the third year it will be worth $1 per day. In other words, let the man and the horse be graduated year by year. I am satisfied that it would not cost the country such a very great sum, and the force would be much benefited. On this question of pay, I desire to refer to the excellent speech of the hon. member for Flaldimand (Mr. Thompson). I had not the pleasure of hearing that speech, but I have taken occasion to read it. That hon. gentleman says that the falling off in the percentage of attendance in the various camps is due entirely to the fact that the pay is so small. I have endeavoured to point out, as occasion offered, how the falling off in attendance was brought about, what the cause of the lack of energy is on the part of the officers, and why it is that the military spirit which was characteristic of this whole country and is still characteristic of parts of it has waned. It is due to the fact that we have no efficient system for training officers. As tbe minister knows. I gave my views on this question again and again to the House. And, if I have an opportunity. I will again point out to the House that if a proper plan be pursued in the training of officers it will have the effect of infusing a military spirit into the country. I do not believe in a great increase in the permanent force. Why should two hundred men be placed in the city of Montreal ? In the whole city of Chicago-and it is one of the toughest cities on earth-the United States government does not keep anything like that number. There are a number at Fort Sheridan, but that is twenty or thirty miles away, and they are kept there because it is a good place to drill. From a police standpoint they' are entirely unnecessary in the Dominion of Canada. If we want police along the water stretches of the frontier, at the canals and at the Soo let us employ them as a permanent police, let us not enroll them as soldiers and then have them called out to preserve law and order. I have too high a respect for the people of Canada to think that it is necessary, in order to preserve order, to have men stationed over them with fixed bayonets. I believe in making the permanent corps an educational rather than

a military institution. I would have our officers appointed to positions on the basis of knowledge rather than of military rank. I would have the men attending these classes graded according to their military education so that those of similar knowledge would be placed in the same squads and conducted from class to class until they would arrive at such a stage of instruction as would be desired. In regard to pay we all have read the famous lines of Bobby Burns which conclude with this stanza :
Glory is the soldier's price The soldier's wealth is honour.
I am satisfied from the statements which have fallen from the lips of the hon. member for Haldimand and Monck (Mr. Thompson) when he pointed out that the city corps throughout Canada are kept to full strength and never draw one cent of pay


Andrew B. Ingram: They are not kept at any-think like full strength.


Samuel Hughes: If they are not kept up at anything like full strength in a one horse town like St. Thomas it is because their officers and non-commissioned officers are not up to what they ought to be.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to stick up for the one horse town of St. Thomas ; it is equal to Lindsay at any rate. While the strength is kept up in St. Thomas there are other towns where it is not.


Samuel Hughes: Wherever j'ou find a rural or city corps that is not kept up you will find a deficiency in the spirit of the officers and non-commissioned officers.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Would that apply to Haldimand ?


Samuel Hughes: Certainly, if the officers and non-commissioned officers in Col. Thompson's regiment were all living up to their duty, that regiment would have gone into camp with their full complement.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman has had a large experience ; will he kindly explain why so many rural corps are dropping out and disbanding ?


Samuel Hughes: I intend explaining it before the close of the session. We have had some experience in the South African war that should be Instructive. For instance I have here the report of the royal commission and I have before me the evidence of Sir Thomas Kelly-Kenny, the present adjutant general of England and one of the best fighting officers in South Africa. Speaking of the pay of the men who went out like the first Canadian contingent and the yeomanry and imperial volunteers of England he says :
Those are what I would call the men who went out through patriotism in the end of 1899 and the beginning of 1900. But as to the other lots the yeomanry and also the other lots of colonials- for I do not think there is very much difference- 421
I think we have had to buy them, and rather dearly.
With the first lot it was not a question of buying and they went through patriotism ; after that it was a question of buying. The pay was raised from one shilling to five shillings and as Sir Thomas Kelly-Kenny says it really meant that they purchased these men for service in South Africa. The volunteer private did not see why he should get only one shilling a day in the volunteer service if he could go out at five shillings a day as a yeoman. The yeoman was receiving five shillings a day without qualification and the service companies one shilling a day for very high qualification. If the strength of volunteer regiments is declining it is owing to a lack of spirit on the part of the officers and non-commissioned officers. I have seen the same thing happen in volunteer regiments years ago. I remember one gentleman marching into camp with a company consisting of six sergeants, one private and himself, when every other company in the regiment had its full complement. Why was this ? Because that gentleman had never taken the trouble to qualify himself or to look after the interests of his company.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: As it is almost six o'clock, we might if the committee is agreeable, take a few items and leave an item on which it would be understood we could have a full discussion of all these estimates.


Samuel Hughes: I have waited patiently since 11 o'clock this morning in order to make a twenty minute speech and before these items are passed I wish to say something further in reference to this matter.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There are two items under civil government for my department which might be allowed to stand. We might put the others through and permit discussion on all of the items on these two votes.
Mr. I-IACKETT. The best way would be to discuss each item as it comes up. If you desire to adjourn now, I have no objection, but I have listened with much pleasure to the address of the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Hughes) ; he made a splendid speech and he quoted from a military officer, Sir Thomas Kelly-Kenny. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if Sir Thomas Kelly-Kenny is Irish. There is an item here in connection with an armoury on Prince Edward Island, $500. I would ask the minister if the officers and men) there, loyal and true men, who provided this armoury without any assistance from the government have been reimbursed for their expenditure.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have been unable to hear my hon. friend, but if he comes down to the
.REVISED EDITION

front and repeats bis question, I will try and answer it.


Edward Hackett: Between my bad voice and tbe bon. minister's toad ears, it is pretty hard for ns to understand each other. I would like to ask the bon. minister, in regard to this $500 to reimburse the officers and men of Prince Edward Island, how long it is since they paid out their money for this work ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It was three or four years ago. About three or four years ago the Militia Department was asked for a grant, and it was understood that $500 would be sufficient ; $500 was granted, but the officers were more ambitious and they spent something over $1,000. I took the ground at first that they had no authority to do It, but after carefully looking into the matter and finding that the expenditure was a jn-oper one, I thought it was only fair that they should be reimbursed.


Edward Hackett: We voted two days ago $2,000 for the same kind of work. These are two votes of the same kind.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There are extensive repairs going on. I understand that this vote is to reimburse the officers for providing an armoury in the drill hall, while the work that is going on now, I think, is an extension of the drill hall, an entirely different thing. This vote is simply to reimburse the officers for money which they paid out, for which we have vouchers in the department, and we are satisfied that the expenditure is bona fide.


Edward Hackett: Who had charge of the work ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I could not tell my hon. friend now.


Edward Hackett: That is very important.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I will give my hon. friend all tlie information. I will undertake to satisfy him.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose there would be no objection to passing this resolution, it being understood that anything in connection with the resolution can be discussed on any other item in the estimates ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Certainly. There are two items in connection with civil government which will be left, and it will be understood that any question that any hon. member wishes to put in relation to these items may be put, and that I will give an explanation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Or any discussion ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Certainly.


Robert Laird Borden: 


Mr. CLARKE.: When will these items be taken up-to-morrow ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No ; I would prefer to leave them until next week.


Robert Laird Borden: As the items are very short, the hon. minister might let the House have some notice as to when they will be taken up, because there are other hon. gentlemen who would like to continue this discussion and who may not be present if the items are brought up unexpectedly.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: If my hon. friend will suggest a day and let me know the day before, I am sure the right hon. leader of the government will be glad to agree to that day.


Robert Laird Borden: Very good.
Some resolutions reported.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the right hon. gentleman (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) be good enough to tell us what business we may expect to-morrow ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Public Works estimates, I think.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at C.10 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, October 9, 1903.