1903-05-12

The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: I would like to correct an error in an answer given by me to a question yesterday. I was asked if there had been any contract entered into with the Trans-Canada Railway Company for any portion of the line. The other portions of the answer were all right, but in the first part I overlooked the fact that a contract had been entered into last January for sixty miles of a railway which is really a portion of the Trans-Canada Railway.



TO CHANGE THE NAME OF HUDSON'S BAY.

Mr.  W. F.@: MACLEAN (East York) moved for leave to Introduce Bill (No. 173) to change the name of Hudson's Bay.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Explain.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Lost.


Mr. MACLEAN.: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlemen will hear me. I think there is good political reason and good national reason for the introduction of this Bill. It is an assertion of our supremacy

over the waters of Hudson's Bay and the adjoining territory. We have not been very successful in maintaining our supremacy and control over the northern half of this continent in the past. We lost the great valley of the Mississippi through inattention ; we lost Louisiana ; we lost Texas ; we lost Oregon and the Pacific coast-


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: And the state of Maine.


William Findlay Maclean: We lost Alaska


Mr. LEMIEUX.: And you lost North Ontario.


William Findlay Maclean: And hon. gentlemen opposite may lose something else later on- they may lose their present seats. Our right and title to a portion of the Yukon is now disputed. And, as has been said, we lost the state of Maine. And nearly all these losses occurred because Canadians themselves failed to assert their rights and to assert their supremacy over their own country. The Hudson's Bay country is coming to be a valuable country. I believe there is a great future for us in that respect, and I say we ought to begin now to assert our supremacy in regard to that territory, we ought to give it a distinctively Canadian name, and I do not know any better name to apply to those waters than to call them the Canadian sea. There are but two seas larger than Hudson's Bay, the Mediterranean and the Carribean sea.


Mr. CLARKE.: What about the Caspian sea ?


William Findlay Maclean: The Caspian sea is much smaller than Hudson's Bay, and we ought to be patriotic enough and Canadian enough


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Does the hon. gentleman intend to include all these three seas in his Bill ?


William Findlay Maclean: Does the hon. gentleman think I do ? I am comparing these seas to Hudson's Bay, though it is not a bay, it is a great sea with an area of over half a million square miles. The area of Hudson's Bay is larger than that of all our lakes combined. The great lakes of Canada only include 100,000 square miles, but Hudson Bay includes half a million square miles, and has a name that is not properly applied to it. It may be said that I propose to remove an old historical landmark and to change the name. But, Sir, the discoverer of Hudson's Bay, or rather the man by whose name it is known, has a monument in the Hudson river in New York state, and he would still have a monument, if this Bill goes through, in Hudson Straits, and he is embalmed in Rip Van Winkle in a way that will last for ever. The motion I make has been suggested to me by men who have been studying the facts in connection with Mr. MACLEAN.
Hudson's Bay, by men who have been studying the geography of that country, by men who have been reading the history of the country, and the way in which we have lost territory. I think a very good opportunity is now presented to us for asserting our supremacy in that country. I hope it is true that the government in some way are already asserting supremacy in that country, that they are at the present time collecting customs duties there and planting the flag. If we do not plant the flag in Hudson's Bay, there are enterprising men and rivals of ours who will soon do it, and who have been setting up pretensions there, as they have set up pretensions in the Yukon. These things ought to cause us to reflect, and while hon. gentlemen opposite who have not been very anxious about protecting Canadian territory, and who have been anxious to see the old flag removed from the northern half of it-some of them may jeer and laugh at it-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh.


William Findlay Maclean: Now the sore point comes. Now I touch on the raw. Now is the time to turn the other way. In the light of all our past experience, of this loss of territory, of this abandonment of territory, I say it is in the public interest that such a Bill as this should be introduced. It is the duty of the government to show that they take an interest iu a question like this, that they are interested in the maintenance of Canadian supremacy on this half of the continent, and that they are doing something now to hold that country for Canada. I hope they intend to give some encouragement to our friend Capt. Bernier in his efforts to plant ihe flag on the North Pole. I am quite willing so far as I am concerned, to support that scheme. I say this Bill is of the greatest national importance, it is important to the empire, and although it may be modified in the way it is drafted, I hope it will meet with the unanimous support of this House.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved that the House again go into Committee of Supply.
["What struck me in connection with this interesting and important debate is that the government are perhaps most to blame for having gone into a transaction of this sort without their evidently having any knowledge of the requirements of the country. I asked the right hon. the Prime Minister whether he had any report as to the probable cost of tlie work which is supposed to be covered by tlie Treadgold concession, and I gathered from his reply that the government had no report, and had not caused any reports to be made as to what the cost of this necessary work would be. Surely, in the case\n\nof a private individual owning such a territory and owning valuable property rights which were to be developed to bring in revenue; surely before such a concession as this was granted a private individual would have had his own engineers and his own scientific officers to report as to the probable cost of the work proposed to be done by people asking for such a valuable franchise. I gather that the government took no steps to ascertain what the proposed work would cost. The first Order in- Council was given in June, 1901, and very shortly after that strong opposition was made to the terms of the grant. Later on another order was passed altering in some points the case in which there has been practically a case in which there has been practically a continuous opposition and not one demand from the people of that country for the confirmation of this concession; from that day to this the government apparently have taken no steps whatever to ascertain what the cost of these works would be. Now, as a rule, 1 am against the government undertaking works of this kind, but I hold that it was the first duty of the government before granting the concession, to ascertain what the cost of such work would be to the con-eesionaires. In the face of the government having no such knowledge, they gave to this company an option-because it is simply and solely an option-for six years of what may be enormously valuable privileges, and the concessionaires are not required to spend a dollar of money for six years. Naturally a body of men with a concession like that, having six years in which to make the most of it, will not be in a hurry to carry the work out or to put such a concession on the market. The market for a year past has not been a favourable one for floating a concern of this kind. The conditions may change at any time within six years, and these men may take advantage of any change in the money market. Naturally they would do so. It would be quite proper for them to do so. Having obtained the concession from this government, it would be quite proper for them, as a pure business proposition, to hold it until they could bring it out at the most favourable time to float it. Naturally they will hold it until they can unload it with the largest amount of profit to themselves. And for six years you are depriving these miners, who you say are so anxious to have water, of the possibility of getting water unless these concessionaires can see the chance in the meantime of selling what you give them at a very large profit. I think it was the first duty of the government, when they found that such a work was required, to ascertain what such a work would cost, and how far it was required to be gone on with at once, and, having done that, to have invited tenders, or let the public know that they were open and willing to receive offers for building these water flumes and de-92\nveloping the water power in that country. On these two points I think the government are very seriously to blame, and have possibly committed that part of the country to a serious loss.\nHouse divided on amendment of Mr. Casgrain.\nYEAS :\nMessieurs\nAlcorn.\tJohnston (Cardwell),\nAvery,\tKaulbach,\nBall.\tKemp,\nBarker.\tLancaster\nBennett,\tLaRividre,\nBirkett.\tLefurgey,\nBlain,\tLennox,\nBorden (Halifax),\tMaclaren (Perth),\nBrock.\tMcCormick,\nBruce.\tMcGowan,\nCargill,\tMonk,\nCarscallen,\tOsier,\nCasgrain,\tPringle,\nClancy,\tPuttee.\nClarke.\tReid (Grenville),\nCochrane,\tRichardson.\nCulbert,\tRobinson (Elgin),\nEarle.\tRosamond,\nFowler,\tSmith (Vancouver),\nGilmour,\tSmith (Wentworth),\nHackett.\tSproule.\nHaggart,\tTaylor,\nHale,\tThomson (Grey),\nHenderson.\tTolton,\nHughes (Victoria),\tV rooman.\nIngram,\tWilson.-52.\n\tNAYS :\nMessieurs\t\nAngers,\tLang,\nBazinet,\tLaurier (Sir Wilfrid),\nBeith,\tLaurier (L'Assomption),\nBeland,\tLavergne,\nBelcourt,\tLaw.\nBernier,\tLeBlanc,\nBickerdike,\tLemieux.\nBlair.\tLogan,\nBorden (Sir Frederick), Loy,\t\nBourassa,\tMackie,\nBrown,\tMacKinnon,\nBureau.\tMacLaren (Huntingdon)\nCalvert,\tMacpherson,\nCampbell,\tMcCarthy,\nCarroll,\tMcCool,\nChampagne,\tMcCreary,\nChristie.\tMcGugan,\nCopp,\tMclsaac,\nCostigan,\tMadore.\nCowan.\tMarcll (Bagot),\nDavis,\tMarcil (Bonaventure),\nDelisle,\tMatheson,\nDemers (LSvls),\tMeigs,\nDemers (St. John),\tMignault,\nDesjardins,\tMulock (Sir William),\nDouglas,\tMurray,\nDyment,\tPaterson,\nDugas,\tPower,\nEmmerson,\tPrdfontaine,\nErb,\tProulx.\nEthier,\tReid (Restigouche),\nFielding,\tRiley,\nFitzpatrick,\tRoche (Halifax),\nFortier,\tRoss (Ontario),\nGalllher,\tRoss (Rimouskl),\nGauvreau,\tRoss (Victoria, N.S.)\nGeoffrion,\tRussell,\nGibson,\tScott,", '291*', "Girard,\tStephens,\nGould.\tSutherland (Oxford),\nGrant.\tTalbot,\nHarty,\tThompson (Haldimand),\nHarwood,\tTobin.\nHeyd.\tTucker.\nHolmes,\tTurcot,\nHughes (King's,\tP.E.I.),Turgeon,\nHyman,\tWade.-95.\nJohnston (Cape Breton), PAIRS : Messieurs\t\nMinisterial.\tOpposition.\nParmelee,\tPope,\nCartwright,\tTupper,\n(Sir Richard),\t(Sir Charles Hibbert)\nJohnston (Lambton), Simmons,\t\nCharlton.\tTisdale,\nSutherland (Essex), Northrup,\t\nGuthrie,\t[DOT] Porter,\nMorrison,\tGourley,\nMcColl,\tWard.\nFraser,\tBell,\nStewart.\tBoyd,\nKendall,\tRoche (Marquette),\nTarte,\tRoddick,\nTolmie.\tKendry,\nMacdonald,\tSherritt.\nSifton,\tCalvin,\nFisher,\tMaclean,\nGallery,\tLeonard,\nGerman,\tBroder,\nLewis.\tWilmot,\nOliver,\tRobinson (Northumberland),\nRoss (Yukon),\tGanong,\nWallace,\tSeagram,\nSchell.\tMcIntosh,\nBruneau,\tMorin.\nWright,\tHalliday,\nMcLennan,\tGlare,\nArchambault.\tKidd.\nAmendment\tof Mr. Casgrain negatived ;\nmotion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply,\nProgress reported.\nOn motien of the Prime Minister, House adjourned at 1.15 a.m., Wednesday.", 'Wednesday, May 13, 1903.']
Mr. T. C. CASGRAIN (Montmorency).: I beg to bring before the notice of this House the question of which I gave notice some time ago, concerning the Treadgold concessions, in the Yukon. At the last session of this House a debate arose upon these concessions, but it was in the dying hours of the session, and not as much attention was given to it as would otherwise have been given. I find on referring to the

' Hansard ' that tlie Minister of tlie Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton), in replying to some remarks made by the leader of the opposition, spoke as follows :
Perhaps it would have been more satisfactory to the House if, at an earlier period of the session, when we were not in a hurry with the proceedings necessarily pressing upon our minds at the close of parliament, a fuller dis-cusion of this whole matter could have taken place. I have only to say that I should welcome the subject if it is brought up by my hon. friend or by any other member of the House, at some future time, because the whole suhiect is one in regard to which I will welcome full and complete discussion.
Now, Sir, wo are only complying with the invitation given to us last session by the hon. gentleman, in bringing this matter to the notice of the House. As hon. gentlemen will see, it is an important matter, these are very important concessions, and we think it is advisable that the House should know the conditions under which these concessions were made, their importance, and the extent of the grants which are given to Mr. Treadgold and his associates. There were two sets of Orders in Council. The first set is composed of three orders which were passed on the 12th of June, the 29th of June and the 7th of December, 1901. Then on the 21st of April, 1902, as I will show later on, after some representations had been made to the government, the Orders in Council passed in 1901 wtere cancelled, and the Order in Council dated the 21st of April, 1902, was passed, making almost the same grants to Mr. Treadgold and his associates. It is necessary for me first of all to point out to the House the importance of the water supply in the Yukon, and of some system by which miners in the Yukon district may be supplied with water. I can find no better authority upon this subject than the remarks which were made on the occasion I have alluded to by the Minister of the Interior. Speaking on the 13th of May last, he said :
The whole subject has given the government a great deal of consideration, and anxious consideration, in order to bring about the best results. A question which has not yet been realized in regard to the development of the mining ground of the Yukon Territory as completely as it will be realized, is the question of the water supply. So long as the rich pockets upon the creeks now well known continue to be worked, the effects of the lack of a proper water supply are not likely to be seriously felt. But as soon as these beds begin to be exhausted and we are getting pretty near to that now the difficulty about the water supply will press for attention. There is an enormous quantity of gravel of a much lower grade than the miners have been heretofore operating upon, which it will be necessary to work if that portion of the country which is producing the largest quantity of gold is to be kept up to its present position. It was the desire of the government to secure the inauguration of some scheme whereby water would be brought in on a large
scale, and, to do that we fei; that it would be justifiable and proper in the interest of the country that pretty liberal privileges and concessions should be given.
In order to further show the importance of the water supply in the Yukon. I beg leave to quote from a letter which was addressed on the 11th of November, 1901, by an engineer of repute in the Yukon, to the then Minister of Justice, he said :
The cutting of the timber and opening up of the country has changed the conditions so that as soon as our spring opens up the snow melts much faster than in past years when we had more timber. The majority of miners who are situated on small streams, gulches and hillsides find that their water supply dries up so early In the summer that ihey had not even time to wash out their winter dumps, so that the water supply Is a very serious one, and the lack of it has retarded the mining interests in the past year very much	It would require, at least 10,000 inches of water distributed through the district-the district referred to is at least sixty-three miles-to supply the different miners within this district, water to wash their gold from their different claims that are now known to be good properties, to say nothing of other ground that may prove good on being developed.
Water must take the place of wood ; most of the creeks have had all the wood cut from them. The miners have had to go some distance, so that the cost now runs up to $25 per cord in some places, and will cost more as it becomes more scarce. In using water, all c.f the higher banks can be washed from top to bottom, instead of working only a few feet, of the drifted ground three feet more or less where it is found the richest. AH of the creek beds that have been partially worked by the ordinary method can be worked over again and be made to pay by the use of water.
This is a very important statement in view of what has taken place in granting the concessions of which I have spoken.
So you see it Is important that some means must be taken whereby a supply of water can be placed at the disposal of the Yukon miner or the gold will not be removed for hundreds of years.
In 1900 a petition was signed by the inhabitants of the Yukon territory to the Governor General. I see that a committee bad been entrusted by their fellow citizens in the Yukon with the duty of making representations to the government in regard to what was going on in the Yukon at that time. These gentlemen, in the first paragraph of this petition say :
That on the 13th day of February, 1900, the undersigned were duly appointed a committee of the citizens of the Yukon Territory, to petition for and secure representation of the said citizens on the Yukon council and in the House of Commons of Canada.
Then, they go on to say, amongst other things, speaking of the concessions which have been made in the Yukon :
On the 25th day of November, 1897, the then gold commissioner, contrary to the mining regulations then in force and in direct breach of faith with the miners who were then exploring

and prospecting Dominion creels, closed the said creek against locations, and in 1S98, the gold commissioner, together with the then commissioner of the Yukon territory, closed the hillsides and benches along said Dominion creek, against locations by the free miners of the Yukon Territory, and this closure was enforced by the recognized authorities until the 11th day of July, A.D. 1898.
On the 13th day of March, 1899, contrary t.o the regulations made by Order in Council, all benches and hillsides on Bonanza and Eldorado creeks

I understand that these two creeks are amongst the most valuable in the Yukon district.
-were closed against locations by free miners and said action, was, on the 5th day of September, 1899, confirmed by the Privy Council of Canada, and said districts have never been reopened to the locations of placer mining claims.
During the time when these closures were being made and enforced on the various creeks, hillside and bench claims, in the gold mining region of the Yukon Territory, large parts ol' the said closed portions and other parts of tho Yukon Teritory were granted by the government of Ottawa to certain persons many of whom never at any time were in the Yukon Territory, as hydraulic concessions, and certain fractions have been granted in compensation for alleged grievances, which alleged grievances ought never to have been in existence.
Thus while the creeks were closed to the ordinary and necessary prospector as above set forth, in the autumn of 1899, the relocation of abandoned claims were entirely done away with In the Yukon Territory. Population was driven from the Yukon Territory by what was a practical prohibition of development, large tracts of richest placer mining ground of the Yukon Territory have been handed over in concessions and the said concessions include and take in valuable fractions which have been denied (o the prospector and have been handed over to the concessionaires for the small sum of one hundred and fifty- dollars per mile, so that at the present time prospection and new discoveries have practically ceased.
They then pray to the Governor General in Council as follows :	\
Wherefore your petitioners pray that :
Third, the necessity of opening "for location to free miners all parts of the Yukon Territory owned by the government which are fit for placer mining.
Fifth, the necessity for altering the hydraulic mining regulations so as to secure for the free miner the right to locate, record and work any ground which is fit for placer mining whether covered by a concession or not.
Sixth, the adoption and enforcement of such mining regulations as will encourage to the utmost the prospector, first, the miner, second, and the investor, third, and throw open the country for the fullest and free development.
Now, Sir, while these locations were closed, as was represented by this petition to the Governor General this was going on in Ottawa here : In March, 1898, the Minister of the Interior directed that Bonanza, Eldorado and their tributaries and benches should be closed against location. This was followed on October 7. 1899, by a regula-Mr. CASGRAIN.
tiou closing all lapsed claims in the territory against re-location. In the year and a half which followed, without the knowledge of the Yukon people the greater part of our richest placer ground was included in so-called hydraulic concessions. On Hunker creek were granted-the Williams (21 square miles) ; the Milne (2 square miles) ; the Anderson (24 square miles). On the Klondike, including Bear and Lindow creeks, was granted,-the Boyle (50 square miles). On Bonanza-the Philip (5 square miles) ; the Bronson & Bay (15 square miles), and the Matson-Doyle (3 square miles) were granted. On Quartz creek another concession (about 4 square miles) was granted to the same Boyle, while the other creeks heretofore mentioned were almost similarly blanketed by concessions which were obtained by fraud in most cases.
Then came the Order in Council of June 12, 1.901, to which I now wish to direct the attention of the House. The Order in Council consists of the preamble and the tender made by Treadgold and his associates was included in the Order in Council, as appears to me, without any amendment whatever; that is to say that these gentlemen made a proposal to the government, they wrote the government a letter in which they said : We want a concession in the Yukon on such and such terms, and the government simply took the letter and Incorporated it In the Order in Council without, as it appears, as far as I can see, changing any part of it. The preamble of the Order in Council says :
Whereas the mining now carried on in the Klondike district is. because of the inadequate supply of water necessarily confined to the washing of the richest gravel only comparatively small in area, thus leaving large tracts of gold-bearing gravels unworked ; and from the information obtained from the gold commissioner of the Yukon Territory and others it is believed that the riches of the Klondike district can only be properly utilized by such a water supply as that which the before mentioned applicants are prepared to establish.
Then the Order in Council goes on to say that :
Therefore, the Governor General in Council Is pleased to order and doth hereby order, that the said application by the said Malcom H. Orr-Ewing, A. N. C. Treadgold and Walter Bar-wick, bearing date the 31st May, 1901, a copy of which is hereto annexed, and which is hereby made a part of this Order in Council, shall he and the same is hereby accepted.
This Order in Council is the most extraordinary document, perhaps, to which the attention of this House has ever been called. A proper value can only be put upon the concessions made by this Order in Council when the Order in Council is properly dissected and properly reflected upon. First of all the Order in Council gives the concessionaires, or the grantees :
The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points he-

tween its entry into the Yukon river and Flat creek for the purpose of generating power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the district hereinafter termed ' The District ') comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, of Bonanza, Bear and Hunter creeks and their tributaries.	.
1 will show afterwards by quoting from some authorities who live in the Yukon Territory the extent of the district and I think X will be able to shorn that the district comprises probably the richest part of the Klondike. These people have a prior right to divert the water and establish their pumping stations so as to create this power over an extent of forty miles of country from the Yukon to Flat creek. Then, having given them the sole right to thus divert the water of the Klondike river, the Order in Council goes on to give them :
The prior right ... to divert and take water from the Klondike river for distribution and use in the district especially upon the hills and benches.
The right on any creek or tributary within the district to divert, take, impound and store for mining purposes any water not used by any free miner for the working of his claim on such creek or tributary under the regulations now in force for placer mining, or respecting the diversion of water for mining purposes in the Yukon Territory.
Afterwards, by an Order in Council of the 7th December, 1901, this right on Rock creek which is the principle creek in that district, was limited to 2,500 miners' inches. I presume that many gentlemen in this House are as ignorant of what is a ' miner's inch,' as I was before I began the study of this question, and it will probably be well to define the term here. When you say a ' miner's inch ' one would think that this was a small quantity of water, but I find in the official ' Gazette ' of 1902 page S2 that a miner's inch has been defined by the Department of the Interior as follows :
A miner's inch shall mean the passage of one and a half cubic feet of water per minute.
And if we consult the dictionaries, we find that a miner's inch is defined to be :
The amount of water that will pass in twenty-four hours through an opening one inch square under a pressure of 6 inches.
X have also heard from a competent authority, that a miner's inch is equal to a volume of water twelve feet square.
The Order in Council goes on to give the right:
The right at any point or points in the bed, banks, valley, slopes and hills of the Klondike river between its mouth and Flat creek to construct and maintain dams, cribs, intakes, flumes and any other works necessary for the generation of power and the right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground for the purpose of such construction and maintenance.
The right to purchase any Crown lands required by the grantees for the purposes of their works at a price not exceeding ten dollars per
acre, saving and reserving all the timber, mines and minerals upon or under such lands.
The right at any point or points in the district to build, maintain and operate pumping stations, electrical works and reservoirs.
The right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground for the purpose of constructing, laying and maintaining flumes, ditches and pipe lines for conveying the grantees' water supply to any point within the district.	*
The right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground within the district and within the Indian river district for the purpose of constructing and maintaining overhead or underground wires and any other structures for the transmission of electricity for any purpose whatsoever throughout the said districts, and the right to levy and collect such tolls as may be approved by the Governor General in Council for the use of electricity in the said districts.
Then it gives the right
To use, distribute and dispose of the water delivered by the grantees within the district.
Therefore these grantees got first of all, the sole right to divert and take water from the IHondike river in this large district; they got the prior right under this Order in Council to take all the water which is necessary and which they wanted to take, and then they got the right to use, dispose of, and to distribute this water within the district. They got this right subject to no payment except the royalty :
The right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output, to enter upon, make entry for any work all mining locations now or hereafter abandoned on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks and their tributaries.
It would seem at first glance that this power is not very important, because as the House wil notice it only gives the right of entry over the abandoned claims, but anybody who knows anything about this question ; anybody who has studied it at all, will see that this right is of paramount importance. Abandoned claims are not at all claims which have been abandoned because they are not good claims. For instance, when a miner has staked out a claim and he has not sufficient means to work it, or has not sufficient appliances, he will work it for a short time, and then abandon it, but here are a great many claims, there are thousands of claims in the Klondike as in all other gold-bearing regions, which have been abandoned and which have been worked over again at enormous profit. The House will, therefore, see the importance of the statement which was made in the petition to the Governor General in Council that I have just read. The House will also note the Importance of the closing up of this rich district to the prospector and to the free miner ; the prohibition which was imposed upon them against retaking or reclaiming the abandoned claims. The House will remember that at a certain period in 1898 and 1899 these districts were closed

against the free miner by regulations emanating from the department at Ottawa. These very same claims, the abandonment of which had been ordered by regulation of the Department of the Interior, were handed over by this regulation to the grantees, the only obligation imposed upon them being the payment of royalty. There was no stipulation for any other payment whatever. Therefore, at once, these grantees came into competition with the free miner, and with such competition the free miner was not in a position to compete, and so these gentlemen got the abandoned claims that were to be found in this very rich district. I call the attention of the House particularly to this, because it is one of the parts of the Order In Council which was not repealed or changed in any manner, shape or form, by the subsequent Order in Council which was passed on the 21st of April, 1902.
Then they have the prior right:
The prior right, if mineral-bearing lodes or deposits of any kind whatever be discovered through the operations of the grantees upon Crown lands, or upon lands or locations owned or leased by the grantees within the district, to enter upon and purchase locations embracing the discoveries in the manner prescribed by the regulations governing mining in the Yukon Territory.
Then they have the right to take timber from Crown lands subject to the payment of dues, and they have also :
The exclusive right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to construct, lay, maintain, supply with water and operate bedrock flumes, and any other flumes for supplying water in the district ; provided that every free miner shall have the right of constructing flumes for the purpose of conveying to his claim the lawful amount of water to which he is entitled under the regulations now in force for placer mining in the Yukon Territory, and any water that he shall purchase from the grantees ; and he shall also have the right of constructing flumes for the purpose of draining his claim.
Therefore, under this Order in Council, they have the right to dispose of and sell the water which they had the prior right to take out of the Klondike, and they were the only people who could lay pipes or flumes so as to distribute this water throughout this district. Now, Mr. Speaker, it will be in order to discover what is the area of the territory which was handed over to these concessionaries. I quote from ' Hansard ' a question which was put to the ministry during last session of parliament. It is as follows :
What area of the Klondike is by this concession given over to such syndicate, and closed to the general public ?
The answer to that question was given in the following words by the Minister of the Interior :
Claims on' Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks and their tributaries, which have been staked out by miners and thereafter abandoned and allowed to lapse.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Now, Sir, this will not probably give the House a true conception of the extent and the value of this immense concession. I beg leave to quote from a newspaper which no doubt my hon. friends on the Treasury benches know very well. It is the Dawson ' Morning Sun.' This paper, I may tell the House, is the government organ in the Yukon ; or it is the most friendly paper in the Yukon to the ministers, and the fact of the matter is that the Saturday edition of the Dawson ' Morning Sun ' is the official ' Gazette ' for the 'district. I find this among the papers in a return which was brought down by the government in reply to a motion made in the House. The * Morning Sun ' of February 14th, 1902, came out with some startling headlines. I must say that it seemed to take a long time for the people of the Yukon to correctly seize the importance of the concessions which had been handed over to Mr. Treadgold and his associates, but they apparently woke up one fine morning, and the Dawson ' Morning Sun ' came out with an article which I shall quote, and which was preceded by very large headlines. Some one asked me a moment ago what this district comprised, and in answer to that I shall quote this newspaper, which I suppose is well informed, and which would certainly not give information to the public wantonly, nor would it be likely to give any information which would be false, especially if that information were to injure the government which this newspaper then supported. It says :



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Three hundred and fifty square miles of territory.
Two hundred and twenty-five thousand square acres.
Twenty thousand dollars a day earned now.
Five hundred and twenty thousand dollars a month earned now.
Three million one hundred and twenty thousand dollars earned in six months.
Ten million dollars earned in three years.
Three thousand eight hundred relocations last year.
Three thousand seven hundred renewals last year.
Loss of revenue to the government.
Loss of business to merchants.
Shrinkage in securities.
Values reduced.
Miners deserting territory.
Confidence gone.
The ' Sun ' then goes on to say :
Public opinion was quickly aroused when the ' News ' appeared on the streets last night with the first exposure of the gigantic mining grab attempted by Treadgold & Co. A mass meeting was auickly arranged for and the A. B. Hall promptly engaged for Monday evening at 8 o'clock. Every man who has anything at stake in the country should be present and support the resolution which will be presented for the endorsement of the people present.
The map published In the Dally ' News ' yesterday, showing the dimensions of the enormous wet blanket upon future development which is cast upon the Dawson mining division by the

Treadgold concession, was an object lesson that probably did more to arouse a deep public interest in the subject than any arguments against the creation of this iniquitous monopoly that have been or can be made.
The map shows a territory covered by this concession of about 350 square miles, or over 225.000 acres. It shows also that this is the richest portion of Yukon territory in its number of gold-bearing streams and its mining development. It shows about eighty streams that have been located and in addition many others that have not as yet been named. With this area there are thousands of claims-creek, bench and hillside-that would in a short time be staked and developed were it not for the fact that the individual miner has been robbed of this mining territory so near to his base of supplies, in order that a wealthy syndicate might be made a present of it; to have and to hold until 1905, whether they do any development on it before that year or not.
That some of the claims embraced have been abandoned is no argument. In every placer mining camp claims are abandoned as worthless and afterwards relocated and worked at a profit. Many of the Klondike pioneers, for instance, abandoned their claims on Eldorado, and even during last year only 3,800 miners relocated claims that other miners had abandoned. Here follows a list of the principal creeks and gulches that are closed to development by the concession.
The paper goes on to give an enumeration of the creeks and their tributaries which were conceded to these people, or over which they had a monopoly; and it gives this result : the Upper Bonanza, with fourteen tributaries; Last Chance, with three tributaries; Hunker Creek, with sixteen tributaries; Eldorado, with eleven tributaries; Lower Bonanza, with twenty-six tributaries; Bear Creek, with one tributary; and Gold Bottom, with three tributaries. The paper adds :
In addition to the above are innumerable creeks and gulches which have no names that appear on any map, but upon each and all of them there are claims a number of which lapse each year.
The House will see the value of the concession which was given to these people, not by any comment I am making on the Order in Council, but by the explanation given by this organ of the government, and, I take it, a paper which must be well informed as to the state of affairs in the Yukon territory.
Now, what were the conditions imposed on these people by the Order in Council ?- Because the House will say, surely these great privileges and monopolies were not given to the grantees unless some conditions were imposed on them, or unless an equivalent was given, if not to the government, at least to the unhappy miners who had been, I may say. defrauded by the concessions which were given by the government. By the Order in Council which was passed on the 12th of June, 1901, it was provided :
The grantees shall before December 31, 1902, have expended upon the objects of their enterprise at least the sum of $250,000.
It was also stipulated that before the end of December, 1902, they were to deliver within the district during the summer season of 1905, not later than July 1, 1905, at least 1,000 miners' inches of water. I may say that by the Order in Council of the 7th of December, 1901, this was altered. They were still obliged to expend $250,000 in work so as to bring this concession into operation, and to supply the miners in the district with at least 2,000 inches of water. There were other important particulars in this first Order in Council which were not changed by the second, and this very important concession was given to them :
The grantees shall not be required to pay to the Crown or to the district or local authorities any rentals, occupation rents, assessments, or other dues in respect of any lands except timber lands, or in respect of any flumes, drains, properties or profits other than import customs duties, school taxes and a royalty on the gold mined in the mines owned by them, or any tax or assessment which may be substituted for such royalty.
The properties of the grantees shall be exempt from representation.
To the ordinary mind the word representation here does not mean much; but when I tell the House what it means, the House will see the enormous value of the concession given to these gentlemen. Under the regulations, which I have here, the ordinary free miner is obliged first of all to pay $15 to become a free miner; he is obliged to get a certificate, which costs $10 or $15, and he has to pay every year a renewal fee of $15. That is not all : he has either to work liis claim to the extent of $200 or pay $200 to the government every year. That is what is called representation. These gentlemen, for some reason, were exempt from representation. They were put on a footing much better than that of the ordinary free miner. They had not to pay anything for their certificate; they had not to do any work whatever on their claims; and if they did not, they were not obliged, like the ordinary free minei' to pay this sum of $200 to the government. The House will see at a glance what an enormous loss of revenue this is to the treasury of the country. Why was this concession given to the grantees ? I would like some explanation on that point. Then, under the regulation which was passed in accordance with this Order in Council, they have the greatest rights of expropriation.
The rights conferred upon the grantees shall extend for the period of thirty years, at the expiration of which period all exclusive and prior rights granted to them shall cease and be determined, but the works and structures built by the grantees together with the lands, rights and easements which they shall have purchased and acquired shall remain the gran-I tees' private property.
[Stage Direction]
The grantees shall have the light to assign the rights conferred upon them to any company or companfes or to any persons associated together for the purpose of carrying into effect the objects of the grant or any part of them.
Now, I call the attention of the House to this part of the Order in Council :
The charge which the grantees shall be entitled to make for the use of such water on each claim shall not exceed one dollar per miner's inch per hour.
So that the miners were obliged to take water from these people. They could not build a flume for themselves or take any water from the Klondike to work the richest parts of the Klondike, but they were obliged to pay these people one dollar for every miner's inch of water per hour. By the Order in Council of 7th December, 1901, this charge for water was reduced from one dollar to twenty-five cents per miner's inch per hour. The implication is that there must have been something wrong in this concession at the outset-that the enormous price put upon this water was put upon it either in absolute ignorance of the position of affairs in the Yukon or from some other motive, which I will not characterize at this moment. As I have said, it took some time before the citizens of the Yukon realized the extent and the importance of the monopoly which had been given to Mr. Treadgold and his associates. I find in the return brought down, a communication from the late Senator Wood, to the Department of the Interior, Inclosing a letter from the firm of Holme Miller & Company, of Dawson. This letter is addressed to the firm of the late Senator Wood, in Hamilton, and is dated February the 13th, 1902, some time after the passing of the Order in Council, which was passed on the 7th of December, 1901. From that moment therefore the government were made aware of the appalling state of affairs created by this concession. They were then put upon their guard and notified to have this condition of things put an end to immediately. The letter is as follows We are sending you a marked copy of a Dawson paper, which marked article we wish to call your attention to.
If this is allowed to stand, it means that two-thirds of our gold-bearing area is closed to the prospector and miner, and absolutely tied up for a period of three years and possibly longer. It will mean a falling off in trade in all lines from 25 per cent to 50 per cent. Surely you cannot be so disinterested in the development and the advancement of this section as to sit quietly by and to allow such an outrage to common decency in matters of government to be committed.
Every manufacturer, every wholesaler in Canada is indirectly interested in this matter, and should not rest until this order of affairs is reversed.
Just such administration of affairs in the Yukon has driven over 8,000 honest, law-abiding English, Canadian, Australian, and American prospectors from this section, and if this condition of affairs continues to exist, there
Thomas Chase Casgrain: will be nothing left but a skeleton of a once prosperous and wealthy community.
If you could come with us to a visit to the creeks we would show you miles of ground held under concession lying idle, while adjoining ground resembles a human beehive, alive with men delving for the golden treasure.
We do not over-estimate this matter. We have been silent heretofore, but the time is now arrived when every man, every woman and every child in the Yukon Territory should enter a protest against a measure aimed against their prosperity and their homes.
Believing you will consider this matter carefully and act accordingly.
We remain, yours truly, HOLME, MILLER & CO.
In a subsequent letter of February the 17th, the same gentleman writes :
We are sending you to-day marked copies of the Dawson ' Daily News ' and the 1 Morning Sun.' The latter paper is the government's organ here. We wish to call your attention to the articles referring to the * Treadgold grants.'
We wish to enlist your services in an endeavour to have this grant repealed. This means the success or failure of many a business enterprise in Dawson. To us it means a loss in trade of 25 to 50 per cent. Neither the ' Daily News,' which is an independent paper, or the * Sun,' the government's organ, over-estimate the damage this grant will do to the commercial interests here.
If there is anything you can do in this matter, any influences you can bring to bear, we trust you can see your way clear to do so.
This firm must have been a reputable concern or the late Senator Wood, who was a very estimable gentleman and a very good friend of the government, would not have thought it worth while to transmit this communication to the department with the extracts from the newspapers referred to.
I am not making any comments on the concession, because no comments of mine could convey such an idea of the iniquity of the grant as those passed by the people themselves in the Yukon district. The * Daily Sun ' of the 15th February said-and I am taking this again from the return laid on the Table :
People are just commencing to realize the enormity of the steal attempted by the Treadgold concession holders. No other term will correctly indicate the nature of the transaction. Rights which belong to the public are being taken without compensation or shadow of authority. What can this be called other than a theft ?
There was also a meeting held at Dawson city, a full report of which is given in the ' Morning Sun ' of the 16th February. This was not a meeting of citizens, prepared in any event to condemn the government unheard, it was not a meeting of opponents of the government, but a meeting of the Liberal club of Dawson city.
The 'Sun' said describing this'meeting :
An earnest and enthusiastic meeting of the Liberal club was held last evening at Pioneer Hall for the purpose of discussing the recent Order in Council concerning the Treadgold concession.
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That meeting was presided over by the Crown Prosecutor, who was then held In great esteem in government circles, and who is now the governor or commissioner of Yukon. The ' Sun ' report goes on to say :
One hundred and fifty members were present, and vice-president F. T. Congdon, called the meeting to order. He stated that, while the meeting had been called at the instance of the Liberal club, the subject under discussion was of such vital interests to the country that anyone who felt interested would be privileged to speak.
Mr. Congdon spoke of the aroused feeling of the people-aroused justly on account of the injustice of such a grant, and that it was the duty of the Liberal club to point out the wrong that had been made. He declared it to be a violation of all the principles of government, and that it had evidently been gained by the grossest misrepresentations. They should not go to extremes in the matter as was being done at present but calmly discuss its great mistake. The government should not give such grants, for it was but the trustees of the people and it was the purpose of the people to see that they were considered in such affairs. He read some extracts of law on contracts and closed his remarks by saying that with a united effort of the Liberal club they should get good results from the commissioner's visit to Ottawa.
I believe that Mr. Ross, the present member for the Yukon district, was then the commissioner and was on his way to Ottawa. The ' Sun ' report continues :
The next speaker called on was orator Charles Macdonald, who said :
I have not the slightest reluctance in improving this oportunity to state my feelings concerning the Treadgold concessions. I only wish that men more conversant than myself- and there are many here-had been called upon. But we would be false friends to the Liberal government if we did not point out the mistakes of the party. (Hear, hear.)
As we all know a mighty concession ha3 been given, yet the government has no right to make such a gift, for it is merely the trustee of the people. This matter of the Tre.idgold concession must and cannot be carried into effect. It is our duty to act promptly (hear, hear) and point out the wrong. There can be no two opinions. It should not become law. (Hear, hear.)
It is rather strange that these gentlemen up there, friends of the government, should have felt called upon to read this lesson to the government. It is rather strange that they should have felt under the necessity of impressing on the government what is an undoubted principle of constitutional law, namely, that such a concession as this should not be given by Order in Council. Again I quote from the * Sun


Mr.  A. F.@: George, another newspaper man in the Yukon, likened the Klondike to a great reservoir upon which the country drew for a supply. He made a pretty illustration of how a claim being abandoned to-day in one district would be made up by the discovery of another. He had worked out rwo claims himself, and yet there was ground still untouched and awaiting the hands of the miner.
' Now,' he said, ' if this opportunity is taken away from three or four thousand men, the work in this district, as individuals, we will only have in its place in a few years five hundred men and our boss, Mr. Treadgold.'
Mr. George thought there should be a rattling of dry bones and made that remark apply to his belief, that not only this, but other concessions should be looked into.


Mr.  F. G.@: Stackpole said :
I have been a Liberal all my life, but I would not stay with any party that has acted like the present government. My interests are in the Yukon and that's the part I am wanting protected.


Alexander I.: McFarlane did not hesitate to say that if the government was in ignorance of this country, it was about time to quit sending delegations to Ottawa, and have them send delegations here. He suggested that Mr. Sifton be asked to take a trip in over the ice.
Now, it is strange that the government bad not more information about this country. This was in 1902, and work lias been going on in the Yukon since 1896 or 1897. The government had their officials there, and I believe some of the ministers had visited that country. At all events it was their bounden duty to know the state of that country, to know the condition of affairs there; and if they passed Orders in Council, giving concessions and grants deserving of this denunciation by their friends, what should be the opinion of members of this House before whom are being placed all the facts of the case ?
The resolutions were moved by Mr. J. H. Davison and seconded by J. C. Noel.
I know Mr. Noel, and I know that a better Liberal or a more devoted admirer of my right hon. friend (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) does not exist in the country. The resolutions passed were as follows :
That a committee be appointed to collect statistics and other information regarding the concessions and the probable consequences of its operation, with a view of providing the commissioner with the same.
It is further resolved that telegrams be sent to the Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier and to the other members of his cabinet protesting against the Treadgold Order in Council and praying that its operation be suspended pending the arrival at Ottawa of the commissioner of the Yukon Territory.
Whereas, the Liberal association of Dawson has summoned this meeting of the association to discuss the Treadgold concession and to make such representations in respect thereto to the government as might be deemed necessary, and has invited all Liberals, whether members of the association or not, to attend this meeting ; and
Whereas, this meeting has the greatest confidence in the judgment and ability of the commissioner of the Yukon Territory and in his desire and determination to guard the interests of the people of this territory ; and
Whereas, in the opinion of this meeting their confidence in the commissioner is shared by the people of the territory at large; therefore be it
Resolved, that the meeting requests the commissioner to undertake the presentation to the

government of the representations which it is desired to make in regard to such concession, and that the meeting urges the commissioner to use all his great influence to secure a cancellation of the obnoxious features of the recent Order in Council, and the other Order in Council relating to such concession, and to relieve this territory from the disastrous consequences certain to ensue if such Order in Council is allowed to stand in full ; and be it further
Resolved, that the commissioner's attention be called to the fact that he be requested to represent to the government that, in the opinion of this meeting, the insertion of such features in the Order in Council could only have been procured by the grossest misrepresentations and fraudulent concealment ; that it never could have been represented to the minister who proposed said orders, or to the Governor in Council that the orders were an interference with the abrogation of vested rights ; that it was retroactive in operation and most far-reaching and uncertain in effect ; that it was certain to produce distrust and lack of confidence among the mining communities of this territory, and prove fatal to the progress of the territory ; nor could it have been presented and made apparent that the only consideration promised for the enormous interest granted was a monopoly to supply water at an exorbitant and prohibitive price.
Then the ' Sun ' goes on with its comments as follows :
The whole populace of Dawson and the creeks is in a furore of excitement bordering on consternation over the far-reaching effects of the amended Treadgold concession . . . Hunker, Bear and Bonanza and all of their tributaries and ground contiguous thereto are within the reach and grasp of the great concessionaire syndicate. That means every paying creek in the country flowing into the Klondike river. Those which empty into the Indian river and the Yukon are the only ones omitted and every miner in the country knows how few those are	 Only a few days remain to the people here who hope to retain what they consider their most sacred rights before it is possible that the giant octopus will have fastened its tenacles upon the country that the poor prospectors have conquered and placed in the list of proud territories of the Dominion of Canada and which with the process of strangulation once in effect, will divest the country of Its population and cheat the government of its income from this source. ... It was the talk all round and there is no use trying to deny or conceal it-that the Treadgold Concession will sap the life of the country. . . . Not for the mining industry alone do the people object but on account of the life of the city of Dawson Itself. They are firmly of the belief that the place will be little more than a memory with the Treadgold people In power, and that where now palatial public buildings and costly banks and big stores and warehouses all sland, will be no more than a reminder of once when there was a prosperous country somewhere in the far north.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What Is that from ?


Thomas Chase Casgrain: This is from the Dawson ' Sun,' the government organ in the Yukon. It says also :
It is apparent that there must have been a vast combination of misrepresentations regard-


Thomas Chase Casgrain: ing the Yukon formed to assail the authorities at Ottawa to induce them to come to the conclusion that this territory cannot get along without Treadgold, and that it is a very insignificant matter to hand over to him all the abandoned claims on certain creeks. It is certain that nobody outside knows much about the Yukon, and the editor confesses that he has been here for so short a time, that for a while, and until he was enlightened, he could not see any great value in abandoned claims. He said, and, no doubt the authorities at Ottawa said : What good would the claims be if the present owners valued them so little as to lose them rather than pay the small renewal fee ? Why not give them to some one like Treadgold, who will appreciate them and work them ?
One only needs, however, to examine the matter for a little on the spot to understand fully how erroneous such an idea is, and to appreciate how great must ha_ve been the imposition practiced to obtain such an order. Treadgold and his associates are horribly anxious to develop this country. They are grieved to think our people are suffering for water. It will be observed, however, that their efforts to develop are confined to districts where other men have found and opened the richest mines on earth. They do not care to strike out into new regions for themselves. They cannot be induced to leave the Klondike. Their excuse for confining themselves to this region is that Bonanza, Hunker, Eldorado, &c., are in distress for water, and they desire to relieve this distress at the small ocst of twenty-five cents per miner's inch.
I have read these copious extracts to show what the real nature of these grants Is. I think it is most interesting to know that these comments should have been made upon the first Orders in Council, because it seems to me, as I shall endeavour to show (with good result, I think), that there is no material difference between the Order in Council now in existence and the Orders in Council against which these denunciations were launched not only by adversaries of the government, not only by people indifferent in politics, but by the Liberal club and by some of the strongest partisans of the government in the Yukon district. I have already said that the new Order in Council was passed on the 21st of April, 1902. Now, Sir, I will not read all the new Order in Council, 'but I will simply indicate to the House some of the salient points of that order. Some of its clauses were exactly the same as those of the former Order in Council. Let me say at the outset that the sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points between its entry into the Yukon river and Flat creek was preserved to the grantees by the new Order in Council. So they have the sole right to take the water from the Klondike river for a distance of forty miles between Yukon river and Flat creek, to erect pumping stations so as to pump water to work the auriferous beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, or Bononza, Bear and Hunker creeks, exactly as granted to these gentlemen by the first Order In, Council to which I have

referred. In the second clause there Is a difference-a limitation.	It will be remembered by the House that, at first, a right was given to the grantees to take water from the Klondike river for distribution from the Klondike without any limitation. By the second Order in Council they have not the right to take all the water they chose from the Klondike river for the purpose of operating their own works, but they have a prior right to take water from the Klondike up to 5,000 miners' inches.
Now, I submit to the House that, having this prior right to take from the river the water for distribution and use in the district up to 5,000 miners' inches, nobody else could come into that district and take water. It stands to reason that these gentlemen have still, under the second Order in Council, the right to build dams across the river, the sole right is given to them to expropriate property for the object of their concession. They have the right to erect pumping stations, they alone have this right, they have the sole right to divert water from the Klondike river according to this first clause. So I say this is a monopoly ; and nobody else, even if he had authority, even if he got a subsequent grant from the government, would be so foolhardy as to go up there and establish competing pumping works, or works of any kind so long as this concession is given to the present owners. Then they have the same rights to .purchase any Crown lands, and build and operate pumping stations, and enter upon any lands or mining grounds, to construct and maintain overhead and underground wires for the purpose of supplying this district with electricity and electrical power. They have the right,-
Subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to establish, distribute and dispose of by sale or otherwise, the water delivered by the grantees within the district.
Now, a notable omission of this Order in Council is that these people have the sole and exclusive right to divert the waters of the Klondike, the prior right to take the
5,000	miners' inches. They have the sole right to use, and the sole right to distribute this water, and no price is imposed upon them by this Order in Council. The first Order in Council said that the price to be paid by the miners was $1, this was subsequently changed to 25 cents per miners' inch per hour. This Order in Council does not say what price these people are to pay. Therefore, to anybody reading this last Order in Council it will be evident that these people have there a monopoly to distribute and to sell water, that nobody else can distribute and sell it, and that they can sell it at any price they deem fit. They can sell it at one dollar, or two dollars, or fifty cents for a miners' inch per hour, there is nothing to restrict them. Therefore, I say this Order in Council is at least as bad as the former Orders in Council which were
repealed by the Order in Council of the 21st of April, 1902.
The grantees have the prior right if mineralbearing lodes or deposits of any kind whatever be discovered through the operations of the grantees upon Crown lands, or upon lands or locations owned or leased by the grantees within the district, to enter upon and purchase locations embracing the discoveries in the manner prescribed by the regulations governing mining in the Yukon Territory; the right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output, to obtain entry for and work all mining locations now or hereafter abandoned on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks and their tributaries.
The House will remember that one of the features which was most denounced by friends of the government in the first Order in Council was the right these gentlemen had of making entry for and working abandoned mining claims in this rich district. The very same right is given to them by the subsequent Order in Council. Then again :
The grantees shall not be required to pay to the Crown or to the district or local authorities any rentals, occupation rents, assessments or other dues in respect of any lands except timber lands or in respect of any flumes, drains, properties or profits other than import customs duties, school taxes and a royalty on the gold mined In the mines owned by them, or any tax or assessment which may be substituted for such royalty.
Here again one of the objectionable features which was to be found in the first Order in Council is reproduced in the second Order in Council. The only material difference between this Order in Council and the others, so far as I have gone, is that by the first Order in Council a prior right was given to these gentlemen to divert the waters of the Klondike without any limitation whatever ; whilst in this Order in Council they still have the prior right to divert that water to the extent of 5,000 miners' inches per hour. But, I say that when these people have this prior right, after having been given the sole right to divert the waters on this extent of territory, nobody would dare to go up there and establish any hydraulic or other system for supplying water to the miners in face of the monopoly created by this second Order in Council. The rights conferred upon the parties by this Order in Council extend also for the period of thirty years, and they also have the right, as they had under the first Order in Council, to assign their rights to any person or corporate bodies.
The House will remember that one of the conditions imposed upon these people was that they were to do work within the short space of a few months to the extent of $250,000. They were to give evidence of their bona fides, and of their ability to carry out this concession, by spending in that district for the benefit of the miners the sum of $250,000. They were also obliged to bring in at least 2,000 miners into this dis-

trict before ; they could make entry for and work upon these claims in the rich creeks I have already mentioned. Singularly enough, by the Order in Council, no such conditions are imposed upon these gentlemen. They are not obliged to expend this $250,000, and they are not obliged, either to construct or' to make those works within the time specified by the first Order in Council. The question presents itself. Where has this $250,000 gone ? That question would strike anybody. These people came up with the evident intention of establishing these works and of putting up a large sum of money to show their ability to construct these works, to show their bona fides, and all at once, by this Order in Council, they are relieved of this obligation of spending $250,000, and even for the space of six years to do any work whatever in this district. So under the Order in Council which gives them the right to assign these powers given to them, .they may, during six years, hold up this country as it were, while they are floating their company in England, while they are trying to get somebody in England to put money into this scheme, while they are trying to float a company which will take hold of this valuable concession. If this Order in Council is maintained by this government, I have no doubt a company will be formed to reap the rich benefits which have been sown by Mr. Treadgold and his associates.
Now, Sir, a short time after this second Order in Council had been passed, as we know, an election was held in the Yukon district, and the electors sent here my hon. friend (Mr. Ross) who now represents this district, but who. I am sorry to say, is not in the House. It would have been well if he had been here, and I have no doubt that the reasons of his absence are valid and good reasons, and that he would not be absent unless it was absolutely impossible for him to be here. I regret it, because I have no doubt that he could have given to this House his experience and a great many explanations which this House needs in order to grapple with this most intricate question. As I said before, an election was held. Now what was the first plank laid down by the convention which selected this gentleman who now represents that district, the conventibn which gave him written instructions as to what he was to do when he came into this House. I hold in my hand now the Liberal platform which was adopted by the Liberal convention at the election in question. Among other things, here is what was laid down as one of the planks of that platform :
Whereas, the supply of water and power to the mines on the creeks is one of the most serious questions of the day in the Yukon territory, and whereas, in the opinion of the convention the matter of such supply on fair and reasonable terms could best be dealt with by the government itself and should not be left to private individuals ;


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Therefore, be it resolved, that the government be requested immediately to make careful examination and obtain reports upon the subject with the view of cancelling forthwith the Tread-gold concessions, and undertaking such supply as may be needed.
Now, Sir, this Is not the concession which was given to these people in the first Order in Council, this is not the concession condemned by the Liberal convention, which was given by the first set of Orders in Council to Mr. Treadgold and his associates; but this is the Order in Council which was passed during the last session while we were sitting here in the House on the 21st of April, 1902. One of the very first planks which was laid down in the Liberal convention called before the election in the Yukon district is that representations should be made by the member who is to be elected for the district so that the government shall forthwith cancel this Treadgold concession.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: Is that the one that is in force to-day ?


Thomas Chase Casgrain: That is the one that is in force to-day-the Order in Council which was passed on the 21st April, 1902, and which is still in force. The platform goes on to say :
Resolved, that in the opinion of this convention many of the concessions now held were obtained by fraud or imposition.
The House will remember that I read over a list of the concessions-the Boyle concession and others which were given by this government, and against which the citizens of the Yukon district protested in a petition addressed by them to the Governor General in 1900. It is alleged that these concessions were obtained by fraud, that they were obtained by misrepresentation, that they were obtained by concealment. The convention went on to eomplaiu that the government had given these concessions to some of its own favourites. It says that:
It is in the interests of this territory that such concessions should be annulled and to that end that an inquiry should be set on foot to ascertain the circumstances of such fraud and imposition, and action taken by the Attorney General of Canada in the premises.
I would ask my hon. and learned friend if he has instituted the inquiries in regard to these concessions which are called here by the friends of the government fraudulent concessions ? Then it goes on to say :
Resolved, that a policy should be adopted which would prevent the obtaining of concessions for hydraulicking except in places where the dirt is of such low grade that it could not profitably be worked by other methods; and that before any hydraulic lease should issue, notice should be given by the applicant by publication in the newspapers of his intention of applying for such lease, so as to enable protests to be entered against the granting of the

same; and that the owners of hydraulic concessions already granted should he compelled to carry out the strict terms of their leases, and that in default of their so doing, their leases should he cancelled.
While these leases continue in existence nobody can work the mines for which hydraulic leases are given. This vast mining territory is there idle and, as is stated in the papers from which I have read, the men are leaving the Yukon because they cannot work these claims. That is the platform adopted at the Liberal convention which chose the hon. member who now represents the Yukon territory (Mr. Ross), and his answer is contained in a letter which I also hold in my hand :
I have received-
Mr. Ross says-
-a copy of the platform adopted by the convention which honoured me by its nomination as a candidate for the House of Commons for Canada. I freely subscribe to every measure suggested therein.
That hon. gentleman comes to this House pledged to have this concession repealed and to have it cancelled forthwith. Why is it not cancelled to-day, because it was obtained by fraud and misrepresentation ? The Order in Council still exists to-day, and such a monopoly exists as will drive people away from the Yukon and prevent them from coming in to work the mines. He gives them solemnly a pledge to see that this Order in Council granting this and other concessions, which it is alleged were obtained by fraud, should be immediately cancelled, and that this country should be relieved from what the ' Daily Sun ' describes as a giant octopus. He goes on to say :
I recognize that the whole business life of the Yukon depends upon the success of the prospector and miner, and they above all others must be encouraged. With this in view I shall advocate the reduction of fees, which, I think, may now be safely done without impairing the revenue; the thorough investigation of the charges of fraud made in respect to the manner in which certain concessions are alleged to have been obtained, and if such fraud is established, the immediate commencement of such proceedings as may be required to vacate the grants, and the enforcement of strict compliance with the conditions embodied in all Crown grants in the Yukon.
I am sorry that it is impossible for the hon. gentleman to be here, because I have uo doubt lie would give some good reasons for liis silence so long- in this House after having received this command from his constituents to see that these concessions were forthwith repealed. At the same time some questions were put to him by a gentleman in the Yukon representing a certain section of the electors of that district, and here are some of the questions ;
1.	Will you pledge yourself to advocate for and insist upon the immediate cancellation of 89
the Matson, Doyle, Bronson and Ray, Boyle, Slavon-Gates and Miller creek concessions ?
2.	Will you agree to advocate for and insist upon the cancellation of the Treadgold concession ?
3.	Will you pledge yourself to advocate for and insist upon the punishment and exposure of officials both in Dawson and Ottawa by whose fraud or culpable negligence or inefficiency those concessions were granted in the first instance, or are now continued in force after the same by their terms should be cancelled ?
I again call the attention of the House to the fact that the Order in Council of the 21st April, 1902, is still in existence in the Yukon.
6.	Will you support the appointment of a commission of five persons, of whom two shall be nominated by the premier, two by the leader of the opposition, and one by yourself, to inquire into the administration of the Yukon country, both local and federal, in all departments, and report ?
The hon. gentleman was not himself able to give an answer to these questions, but it was answered by his right bower, the gentleman who is now Governor of the Yukon territory, Mr. F. T. Congdon, who wrote as follows
Dawson, November 4, 1902.
C. M. Woodworth, Esq.,
Dawson, Y.T.
Sir,-I beg to say that your questions were received and forwarded to Mr. Ross at too late a date for it to be possible for him to have answered them by this time. I know the views of Mr. Ross as well as any one can and have no doubt he will advocate the course of action you suggest in your questions.
So that this hon. gentleman was elected on the distinct pledge that he would come to Ottawa and have these concessions cancelled forthwith. This Order in Council should be cancelled now If everything I have read from these documents is true. It should never have been passed in the first place. After all the condemnation which has been brought down upon the heads of the government by the passing of the first Order in Council, this second Order in Council, which does not materially differ from the first Order in Council, should never have been passed, and I say that the government should be condemned by this House for passing the second Order in Council after having been warned by its own friends of the detrimental effects which this concession would have upon the Yukon district. I have evidence of this in a question which was put to the administration not long ago. The Dawson hoard of trade telegraphed to certain gentlemen in this House, and amongst others to the right hon. leader of the government (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier), in the following terms :
Oppose any attempt to pass Order in Council' or Act in parliament that will in any way confirm Treadgold concession. Are having monster petition signed and reliable data prepared to



forward to Ottawa, asking government to aid in furnishing -water for mining purposes. People are a unit in making demands and will insist on government protection from monopoly of Treadgold octopus.
To which the right hon. leader of the government replied :
You are altogether mininformed as to what you call the Treadgold concession.
No such action contemplated either by legislation or government order.
The people of the Yukon should have had a satisfactory answer from the right hon. leader of the government, but this was a rather ambiguous answer. I do not quite understand the reply which the right hon. leader of the government made to the very distinct telegram which was sent to him by the president of the Dawson board of trade. The right hon. leader of the government says :
No such action contemplated either by legislation or government order.
What does the right hon. gentleman mean? Does he mean that this Order in Council required no confirmation at the hands of this parliament ? Does he mean that the Order in Council is a valid concession of the franchise which the government purpose to give these people ? Is that the meaning of the telegram; or does my right hon. friend by this telegram mean, that he will not do anything at all; that he will let this concession stand or fall on its owu merits, but he will not ask his government or ask this House to confirm it in any manner whatever. I really do not know what the right hon. gentleman meant by this. However, this fact remains; that the Order in Council has not been repealed; that it is still in existence, and that although it is as obnoxious and as illegal and as unconstitutional as the first Order in Council, no steps have been taken yet by the government to repeal it and to give satisfaction to these people in the Yukon who have been crying out against this shameful state of things. The Dawson Board of Trade, after having seen this telegram also sent a petition which is on file here, and which is signed by a large number of the people of the Yukon. The Dawson Board of Trade addressed a letter to the newspapers in which the Treadgold concession which is now in force is commented upon in the following terms :
The Treadgold concession and water grant as granted by an Order in Council and which when ratified by the parliament at its next session will become law is, in the opinion of this board, one of the most iniquitous measures that was ever inflicted upon a people, and (in the consideration of the Dawson Board of Trade) will work a great hardship upon the people of this territory since it will mean the virtual bankruptcy of all the property owners of Dawson and surrounding territory, and instead of the Klondike becoming the prosperous country we expect, it will virtually become the property Mr. CASGRAIN.
of Mr. Treadgold and those who are associated with him in his scheme.
In this community tbe Treadgold concession is called 'the infamous Treadgold grant,' and is alluded to as an ' iniquitous concession,' and in the petition which was sent to the House of Commons this language is used. After reciting part of the Order in Council, it says :
2.	That the benefits conferred upon the grantees are of incalculable value and involve an enormous exploitation of the public resources of this territory for the benefit of a few favoured concessionaires.
3.	That In the opinion of your petitioners the accumulation of extraordinary powers in the hands of a single corporation such as is affected by the above Order in Council, will lead to the paralysis of the independent, commercial and industrial life of the community and will prove In the highest degree oppressive and injurious to the public welfare, since the grantees are thereby enabled to crush out competition and to reduce to a position of practical servitude the individual miners in the extensive district affected, which includes the richest portion of the Klondike.
4.	That the need of this territory is not the creation of monopolies, but their prevention, and the encouragement of the individual miners by securing equal privileges and opportunities to ail as far as the law and the administration can provide them.
5.	That for the promotion and development of the mining industry of the Yukon, a cheap, abundant and effective water supply, furnished at a minimum of cost by the government at the earliest possible moment, is absolutely essential.
Your petitioners therefore pray :
1. That the Order in Council of April 21, 1902, may be cancelled completely, and that no special privileges shall hereafter be granted within this territory with respect to wood, mining, water or any other class of rights affecting the general public; hut that all persons shall be restricted in such matters to the rights conferred upon every member of the community by the mining regulations.
Now, Sir, the House will see that the very same condemnation which was brought down upon the government for passing the first Order in Council is brought down upon their heads to-day for passing the second Order in Council. I take it that the Dawson Board of Trade, in the very nature of things, is not composed entirely of opponents of the government, and in the estimation of that board of trade this huge monopoly conferred by the second Order in Council should be cancelled immediately. They state that if it is not cancelled it will do a great injustice to the miners of the Yukon district, and that it is calculated to injuriously affect the interests not only of the Klondike but to injure the commercial interests of Canada as a whole.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: The Dawson city council passed exactly the same resolution and sent a petition to the House of Commons, and these resolutions being couched precisely in
N/

the same terms as those passed by the Board of Trade which I have just read, it will be unnecessary for me to repeat them. And here I am again face to face with my friends of the Liberal club of Dawson. You will remember, that although they are friends of the present administration, they thought it was their bounden. duty to condemn that first concession which was given to Mr. Treadgold and his associates. Apparently they do not find a very great difference between the first concession and the concession which is in existence to-day. They do not find the great changes which the Minister of the Interior tried to persuade this House last session had been made in the second Order in Council. On the contrary, they go on with their agitation against the second Order in Council and they have petitioned the government and this parliament to withdraw or to cancel the second concession as being just as bad as the first one, against which, they protested in the month of February, 1902. The petition of the Liberal Association of Dawson and of the Yukon Territory, goes on to say :
That the development of the resources of the Yukon has been seriously impeded by the appropriation of extensive areas of rich placer ground by hydraulic concessions believed in some instances to have been obtained by fraud and misrepresentation.
This alludes not only to the Treadgold concession, but it relates also to the other concessions which are mentioned in the petition to the Governor General in Council in 1900, and which were referred to in the platform of the Liberal convention when the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Boss) was elected, and also in the questions which were put to the hon. member (Mr. Ross) and which he answered by his friend Mr. Congdon, before he was elected. These concessions not only include the Treadgold concession, but also the concessions which I enumerated to the House. We find the Liberal club stating that these concessions were obtained by fraud and misrepresentation. Now, Sir, if the government has been the victim of fraud or misrepresentation, it is its bounden duty to immediately cancel not only the Treadgold concession, but the other hydraulic mining concessions which were given to the other parties I have named. This demand is made on the government by their awn friends in the district and by people who seem to know what they are talking about. The petition of the Liberal club says :
Your petitioners therefore pray :
That the Order in Council of April 21, 1902, granting certain rights and privileges to Mal-com Orr Ewing, A. N. C. Treadgold and Walter Barwick, may be rescinded absolutely.
That the government institute forthwith a careful investigation by competent engineers and obtain reports upon the subject with a view to undertaking the construction of a public water supply as a national enterprise.
89}	,
That the water of Rock creek be retained by the government for public purposes and that no special privileges either in such creek or with respect to wood, water or mining rights within this territory, be granted to any individual or private corporation, but that all persons be restricted in such matters to the rights accorded the general public under the mining regulations.
That all hydraulic concessions whose owners have not observed the conditions of their leases and the provisions of the mining regulations may be rescinded.
That an inquiry may be set on foot to ascertain the circumstances under which the leading hydraulic concessions were obtained in order that action may be taken by the Attorney General of Canada in the premises.
That the Attorney General of Canada do issue a fiat authorizing prceedings to be taken in his name in every case where action is begun against an hydraulic concession in which fraud or misrepresentation is charged, including all such actions as are now pending.
Therefore, I repeat, that in view of these petitions signed by the great majority of the people in the Klondike district, and the great majority of the Liberals at that, it is the bounden duty of the government to see that these concessions are cancelled. It seems to me that if the inquiries which have been asked for in these petitions are not granted, it is either because the government wants to favour those to whom these concessions have been made by fraud and misrepresentation, or, that the government itself is guilty of fraud in giving these concessions to these individuals.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: I do not see how the government can escape from that dilemma. Now, Sir, a delegation has been appointed, not only from Dawson City, but from the different points at which gold is mined in the Yukon district. That delegation is composed of Mr. Clarke and Mr. Pringle. Mr. Pringle, I am told, is an excellent Liberal, and he is coming to Ottawa or has arrived here, to insist on the cancellation of this Treadgold concession. At a meeting which was held at Bonanza, Mr. Pringle spoke as follows :
The assay office is the most pressing demand. I say it now and I said it then. The Treadgold concession is in fact the paramount question. after all. Because, if Treadgold owns the country, there will be no gold to assay and no need for banks. But the miners want the assay office first, and they want the Treadgold concession cancelled next.
I am a Liberal and have always been a Liberal. But it seems to me the Liberal government in its administration in the Yuko.n has driven a coach and four through everything I ever knew that was Liberal.
We can live in this country if you stop graft. I stand against graft.
The appointed members of the Yukon council refused to sign our telegram to Ottawa against the Treadgold concessions because they said it would be a slap in the face of the government. They will vote against us for the same reason when the council meets.
2S23

The telegram which was proposed to be sent by the council of the Yukon to the government is in the following terms-it was signed by Messrs. Clarke, Pringle, Thompson and Landreville, the elective members of the council:
We, the elected members of the Yukon council ask the government to recind the Tread-gold concession in toto.
We represent a people who are absolutely united in their demand for the cancellation of the present Order in Council. Its continued existence means the ruin of business and of the placer mining industry in the Yukon Territory.
That telegram was sent to the government.
Now, Sir, not only were these grants made improvidently, not only were they most detrimental to the best interests of the Yukon and of the country at large, but it seems to me that they are absolutely illegal-that the Governor in Council had no right to make them. There is no doubt-and on this proposition I think I shall be borne out by my learned friend the Minister of Justice-that public lands or the public domain belonging to the Crown cannot be granted by Order in Council, except in those particular instances in which the Governor in Council is by statute given power or authority to make such grants. I think that is a sound proposition in constitutional law ; for, after all, the government are only a committee of this House, and they have no other powers than those which this House specifically delegates to them. They have power to administer, but they have not power to grant or even sell any part of the domain of the Crown. Take, for instance, the Dominion Lands Act. By section 29 of that Act, specific power is given to the Minister of the Interior and his agents under certain conditions to grant public lands to settlers ; but this provision goes to show that in other circumstances the Crown domain is sacred, and can only be conceded or sold by the authority of parliament, and not by the authority of the ministers, who are only a committee of this House. The Crown domain consists not only of the public lands of this country, but also of the rivers and streams which flow through it. Of course, the navigable streams all belong to the public domain and cannot be given away, granted or sold by Order in Council. But in a territory like the Yukon, where the government is the proprietor, the owner, on both sides of streams which are not navigable, I take it that the Crown is equally the proprietor and owner of the streams. These concessions which were granted by the Order in Council were concessions to private individuals of certain parts of the Crown domain. The very franchise itself by which these gentlemen were permitted to build dams across rivers and streams, to build pumping stations anywhere they saw fit, to maintain electric works for the purpose of transmitting electric power all Mr. CASGRAIN.	[DOT]
through that district, to expropriate private lands and lands belonging to the government, is a franchise that belongs to the Crown. Every day before the Private Bills Committee and the Railway Committee, persons appear for the purpose of obtaining franchises belonging to the Crown for the purpose of expropriating the lands of private individuals or lands belonging to the Crown ; and if it were only a franchise in the water that was given to these people, it would be a grant of a certain portion of the property vested in the Crown, of which the Governor in Council had no right to divest the Crown. The authority under which the second Order in Council was passed is stated in the preamble of the Order in Council itself. The following statutes are quoted :	Clause 47 of the
Dominion Lands Act as amended by section 5, of chapter 15, of 55-56 Victoria ; section 8, of the Yukon Territories Act, as amended by chapter 11 of 62-63 Victoria. The minister has taken the precaution of giving us the quotation from the statutes under which he proposes to Act, and he says in the preamble of this Order in Council that it is in virtue of these two statutes. No doubt, if he could find any other statutes which would give the Governor General in Council power and authority to make these concessions, he would have quoted them also. Now, let us take the first statute which he quotes, the 47th section of the Dominion Lands Act, as amended by section 5, of chapter 15, of 55-56 Victoria, which reads thus :
Lands containing coal or other minerals, including lands in the Rocky Mountains park, shall not be subject to the provisions of this Act respecting sale or homestead entry, but the Governor General in Council may, from time to time, make regulations for the working and development of mines on such lands, and for the sale, leasing, licensing or other disposal thereof.
The effect of this statute is this :	First,
it takes away from the minister and the Governor General iu Council the right to do with these lands what the minister does with the ordinary Dominion lands which lie concedes or grants to settlers. The legislature says by this section, that he shall not treat mineral lands in that way, but that he can make regulations for the working and development of mines on such lands, and for the sale, leasing, licensing or other disposal thereof. So that what should have been done would have been to pass regulations for so dealing with this part of the public domain. The regulation takes the place of the law. For instance, under the Dominion Lands Act the settler' applies for a part of the public domain as a homestead. Therefure, if regulations were passed for the sale or lease of mineral lands, anybody could come in and say to the government:	I have complied
with the regulations and am entitled to a grant of mineral lands.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: Are these all mineral lands ?


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Yes. This is the very section which is quoted, and I do not see how the minister can take any relief from it. He is doing exactly what the law forbids. The law says that he can only lease or grant lands under the general regulations which govern all the subjects of Her Majesty, so that any man who complies with these regulations and conditions is entitled to the benefit of them. But until he does comply with them, the Governor General in Council is powerless to grant, concede or sell any part of these mineral lands. Let me however refer to the second statute quoted in the preamble of the Order in Council and see whether the hon. gentleman can take any relief from it. This statute is section eight of the Yukon Territory Act, as amended by 62-63 Victoria. I call attention to this section because I cannot see how the Minister of the Interior could have gone before his colleagues and quoted to them this law as authorizing him to make this concession. I cannot come to any other conclusion than that this grant was put through council hastily and carelessly, and that none of the hon. gentleman's colleagues could have looked at the statutes or realized the enormity of the concessions which they were asked to give. Section eight of the Yukon Territory Act, as amended, says :-	*
Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Governor in Council can make ordinances for the peace, order and good government of the territory, and of Her Majesty's subjects and others therein ; but no ordinances made by the Governor in Council or the commissioner in council, shall-
(c) Appropriate any public land or other property of Canada without authority of parliament, or impose any duty of customs or any excise.
So that the very statute which the hon. gentleman quotes in the Order in Council says that the Governor in Council shall have no right to appropriate any public land or other property of Canada without the authority of parliament. The very authority which the hon. gentleman quotes is against him. It is an authority which says that he cannot do what he proposes to carry out. I await the explanation of the government on this point with a great deal of interest. Of course I know that we can sometimes drive a coach and four through any law, but it will certainly require great skill to overcome these two statutes cited in the Order in Council. It seems to me that these concessions should be immediately repealed. They are certainly against the interests of the miners and other citizens of the Yukon. They will certainly prove prejudicial to the interests of Canada as a whole, and I beg therefore to move :-
That all the words after ' that ' in the proposed motion be struck out and the following substituted therefor :-
This House regrets that by an Order in Council of date the 21st day of April, 1902, the government for the ostensible purpose of establishing hydraulic works to supply water for the efficient working of auriferous deposits have granted to one A. N. C. Treadgold, of London, England, and his associates, vast powers, franchises, and concessions in and upon the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, and in and upon the waters of Rock creek, in the Yukon Territory, with the right to establish for the benefit and advantage of the concessionaires in and through the region and district through which these rivers and creeks run, hydraulic, electrical and other systems, and to enter and to take up and operate mining and other lands :
This House is of opinion that the said powers, franchises and concessions constitute in favour of the said Treadgold and his associates a gigantic monopoly, which, while depriving the treasury of enormous revenues, is most detrimental to the mining industry of the Yukon : And that in so making the said grants and concessions by Order in Council, the government have exceeded their authority and have committed a gross breach of the duty entrusted to them under the constitution.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. JSir William Mulock).: The subject, Mr. Speaker, which the hon. gentleman has brought to the attention of the House is one of considerable importance, largely involving legal questions, but at the same time not free from questions of public policy. The hon. gentleman quoted some interesting extracts from newspaper reports and other anonymous communications and utterances of various kinds.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Not one anonymous.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Would the hon. gentleman give the names of the gentlemen who wrote the various documents, editorials and so on, which he quoted ?


Thomas Chase Casgrain: I said that it was the editor of the Dawson ' Sun ' who wrote the articles, and that these were sent to the government by the late Senator Wood.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend has taken the proceeding-unusual in courts of justice though not always in popular tribunals-of quoting newspaper reports and articles, and other uncorroborated utterances and building thereon an elaborate argument, which may appeal with some force to people who are not familiar with the facts. It appears to me that the address and the argument of the hon. gentleman on this occasion would have been much more fittingly made in the Yukon district itself, at the time, shortly before this session opened, when the people there were given the opportunity of pronouncing a verdict on the administration of this government. This is not the first time that hon.

gentlemen opposite have taken advantage of their position as members of this House, to rise in their seats and attempt to vilify the administration of the Yukon, and spread broadcast throughout the country the most unfounded aspersions on the policy and the conduct of the government. While I am not taking any exception to the ventilating of this matter again in this House, I think that I have the right to point out that there was a most appropriate occasion, not long ago, when the hon. gentleman could have addressed to a tribunal composed of the people directly interested, the arguments he has just made here. I refer to the electors of the Yukon. Why the present session should have been selected rather than that occasion, it is for the hon. gentleman to explain. During many sessions another hon. gentleman in this House took the interests of the Yukon district under his special care. He was the self-constituted guardian in this House of everything dear to those people. I refer to the hon. and senior member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper). But neither did that hon. gentleman venture beyond these precincts. Neither did he go to the Yukon and there make his charges before the people who are most familiar with the facts and best able to pass judgment on them. But he preferred making them at this convenient distance. Now, there was abundant opportunity given at the late election for hon. gentlemen opposite to have denounced before the electors of the Yukon the administration of that district in their most vigorous fashion. They were given ample notice. They had six months notice. We passed an Act a year ago giving representation to the people of the Yukon; and we challenged these hon. gentlemen on the floor of this House to meet us during the recess before the people of the Yukon and tight out these charges, so properly determinable by the people, before the electors themselves. Sir, they did not appear on that occasion; they abandoned the issue. They had not the courage to make the charges before the electors of the Yukon. We put a candidate in the field and the electors of the Yukon returned him as a supporter of this government by an overwhelming majority. Unfortunately that hon. gentleman (Mr. Boss, Yukon) for reasons which we all regret, is absent from the House to-day. He is absent from Ottawa. Otherwise, perhaps, he would be heard upon this matter. It is also to be regretted-and by none more than by myself-that the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton) who is so familiar with the details of these transactions, is also absent from the House, attending to public business of a high character in London, England. I can only speak from such information as comes readily to my hand through reviewing the papers in the department. To that extent, therefore, I will address myself to the particular subject in question.


Sir. WILLIAM MULOCK.: The hon. gentleman took many exceptions to the/ Order in Council. Let me first, so far as I know it, describe the situation and the outlook for the government. When the Yukon was discovered and it was learned to be rich, in placer mines, everything was prosperous. But the time came when the placer mining began to give out. Still, every one felt that there must be a future for that district, and it was the duty of the government to endeavour in all possible ways to aid in furthering mining operations. There are many kinds of gold mining. There is placer mining, hydraulic mining, quartz mining, as well as the recovery of gold from water. These are various methods for utilizing the 'rich gifts of Providence to the Yukon. When the lower claims near the water level became exhausted, it was necessary to consider by what means the government could succeed in delivering water on the elevations, that it might be available there for washing out the gravel upon the benches and hills. Manifestly, that is a task not to be carried on by each individual for himself. Business suggests at once that a large scheme for the development of power and the pumping of water is the proper way of supplying the individual with the necessary water. It is just as it is in cities to-day. Municipalities deem it wiser to establish water-works and operate public service, rather than leave it to each individual as in primitive times, to supply his own conveniences. And so, for the purpose of working these claims above the creek and a little distance away from the water, it, manifestly, is the mo lie businesslike and economical and profitable method to carry on that business by having a company or some wholesale system, whereby each person can purchase just such water as he requires without each having to duplicate the capital expenditure necessary for the establishment of works to supply himself with water. And so, the Department of the Interior endeavoured to obtain offers in order to provide water for the upper mining district. Manyi schemes had been suggested. But the Department of the Interior was extremely desirous of placing this franchise, if possible, in the hands of men of reputation, men of financial strength. My hon. friend has read from the newspapers charging fraud all round, he has charged concealment, misrepresentation and fraud. I do not know! whether he alludes to the gentlemen to whom these grants were made. But, if he does, I think they have good ground to complain. One of these gentlemen is well known to every hon. gentleman in this House. He is well known iu this country; and highly as I respect the reputation of my colleagues on both sides in this House, I think I am not going beyond the facts when I say, that there is no man who enjoys more the respect of the people of Canada as an upright man than one of the grantees whom my hon. friend charges with having been guilty of fraud of

many kinds towards this country. I refer to Mr. Walter Barwick. I would also say to my hon. friend who tells us that he is so desirous of investigation that I am sure he must well know that ft has been long the fixed intention of thy government to hold such an investigation. The hon. gentleman must remember that, when the election was held, promises were given to the people of the Yukon that there would be a commission to inquire into the whole administration of that territory. There has been no opportunity since that date until the present to send in commissioners. I doubt if navigation is more than open, even if it is yet open. When the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Boss) returns to Ottawa, -lie is at present in British Columbia, I understand-and we can have the benefit of his advice, it is our intention to fully carry out the representations made to the citizens of the Yukon to have a full investigation into all charges or suspicions that lion, gentlemen may be good enough to mention or entertain in regard to any matters connected with the Yukon administration. X give that public notice to my hon. friend, so that, in addition to the advantage he has had of ventilating his views on the floor of this House, he will have an opportunity to make good, if he can, any of his charges or suspicions /before a; tribunajl where newspaper extracts and letters will not be the only evidence, but where gentlemen will have the privilege of pledging their oaths to the truth of all they say. I would point, out that, in his zeal to magnify, he has entirely misapprehended the scope of the Order in Council. He reads from newspapers to show that we abandoned 850 square miles of territory comprising all these rich creeks and gulches and rivers. The hon. gentleman is a lawyer, and he proposed to make a legal speech and to give the legal effect of documents; yet there is not even a layman in this House but, I am sure, will see that he has entirely misrepresented-I speak without meaning anything offensive-he lias given to the House an entirely erroneous impression of the scope of the concessions spoken of. Though there is a grant of power to erect a dam upon the river, to take water and generate power, and because that gives these concessionaires the right to sell that power throughout that district, by what process of reasoning does he say that the whole district with all its wealth is handed over as a grant to these concessionaires ? Why, Sir, when you grant a privilege to erect dams and generate electricity on a river and give the grantees the right to sell that power to the public, unless you restrict the deed, the grantees have the right to sell power throughout the whole of Canada. And if it should happen that such a grant were given, my hon. friend, according to his present reasoning, would argue that such a grant carried the exclusive possession and ownership of Canada. That is the necessary result of his reasoning-because they are given the privilege of selling electricity over a certain area, that carries with it all other possible rights. Now, what does the Order in Council grant? The Order in Council of June, 1901, differs materially from the Order in Council of 1902. My hon. friend says there is no material difference. Let us see. lie is a lawyer, and has carefully studied these questions, he has had these papers in his hands since last session and knows all about them. I have the two copies here, my hon. friend has the two copies also. I,et us see if he will adhere to his statement that there is no material difference between the one and the other Order in Council. Under the first Order in Council a considerable term of years was granted. Under the first Order in Council it was necessary for certain works to be done within a certain time. There has been a modification, my hon. friend will say for the worse, by having substituted six years for a shorter period. I merely remark that in one sense the work required under the second Order has not to be completed as quickly as under the first. But I pass to the new section, and I commend it to the hon. gentleman's attention :
Provided, that if any power is developed and rendered available by the grantees under this section which they do not make use of, then the' same should be offered for sale to the public, and the rates to be charged therefor shall be subject to the control of the Governor General in Council.
Now, 1 would say that is an entirely new clause. When the first Order in Council was a subject of criticism in the Yukon, a meeting of the miners was held, and they appointed two delegates to come to Ottawa and ask for modifications, not for a repeal of this Order in Council. The majority of the miners of the Yukon, so far as we know, do not desire the repeal of all the Orders in Council, they do not ask for a repeal of the old Orders in Council, but they ask for modifications, and the modifications they asked for were of the following character :	They objected, for example,
to the exclusive right given by the first Order in Council to erect bedrock flumes. That was regarded as a very objectionable feature of the first order. That objectionable feature is removed, and does not appear in the second Order in Council. Not only does it not appear, but privileges are given to every person, reserved to every person to erect bedrock flumes. One of the great questions in the Yukon in regard to the first Order in Council was the exclusive right granted to construct, maintain and use bedrock flumes. People were excited upon that point, and they sent two delegates, Mr. Williams and Mr. Sugrue, to consult with the government and ask that all objectionable features might be removed from the first Order in Council. That was the first point that the people proposed, and that point was arranged. That former objection disappeared, and yet my hon. friend

says there is no material difference in the two Orders in Council.


Mr. CLANCY.: The hon. gentleman says that the majority of the miners did not want that concession repealed. I would like to ask how the majority of the miners voiced their opinion ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The two representatives of the miners who came to Ottawa, purporting to represent the opinions and wishes of the miners, did not ask for repeal, but for modifications, and those modifications were granted. I think it is reasonable to assume, when they came down on a mission of that kind and presented their arguments, that they were voicing the sentiments of those they were representing here. Again, my hon. friend says there is no difference between these two Orders in Council. The first Order in Council allowed the grantees to develop power and use it all for themselves. There was no duty cast upon them under the first order to sell power to anybody. How Is it under the new Order in Council ? Will my hon. friend tell me this is not a material change ?
Provided that if any power is developed and rendered available by the grantees under this section which they do not make use of, then this same shall he offered for sale to the public.
Is that not a material change ? My hon. friend does not see that under the new order the public are the beneficiaries to the extent that they have a right to purchase the power that may be generated under this concession.


Mr. POPE.: At what price ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I will proceed to read. Hon. gentlemen should restrain themselves, they will get all this information in due time. They would have been much wiser if they had known the Orders in Council before malting these inflammatory speeches.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: We know them.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend from Compton (Mr. Pope) asks at what price.
The rates to be charged therefor shall be subject to the control of the Governor General in Council.
That is the way the rates are fixed in this country in many other cases. The Governor in Council fixes the railway rates and many other kinds of rates ; and here the Governor in Council, responsible to parliament and to the public, are the parties who stand as an independent tribunal between the buyers and sellers of power, so that under the amended Order in Council the general public have vested rights entitling them to power and entitling them to protection against unfair prices.


John Graham Haggart: Does the power mean water ?


Sir WILLIAM MUI OCK.: 


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No. There the hon. gentlemen show a limited knowledge of this scheme. Power means the electrical power that is going to be developed by the use of water. There is going to be a dam, or a backing up of water. Hon. gentlemen smile ; let me read the olanse :
The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points between its entry into the Yukon river and the Flat creek for the purpose o.f generating power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the district.
This is an entirely different proposition from the right to take water from the bed of the river and to raise it up, whether it may or may not return to the river.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have these concessionaires no right to sell power under the first Order in Council ? Had the public no right to compel them to sell power ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We will see about that.


Robert Laird Borden: Where is there anything in the Order in Council about it ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: When they have the power generated then they have to sell it, if there is any one to buy it, and if there is any to spare. I turn to section 2. Under the first Order in Council it has been correctly stated that the grantees had the right to divert and take water from the Klondike for distribution in the district generally, for the use of benches and other claims. Under the new order, the amount that they may take exclusively is 5.000 miners' inches.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much does that amount to ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I wonder if the hon. gentleman has any idea how much water is available in that district.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We are asking for information. What volume of water does that
5,000	inches mean ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I will explain that in a moment. Let me first explain that under the second Order in Council there is a prior right given to license holders :
Provided that licensed holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike river should be entitled as against the grantees to the use of a flow of water sufficient for working their claims but not exceed in all 3,500 miners' inches, equal to 5,250 cubic feet per minute.
A miners' inch, therefore, is equal to a cubic foot and a-lialf per minute. First of all, license holders take their 5,250 cubic feet per minute, then these grantees are entitled to take 5,000 miners' inches per minute. My hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) desires to know what proportion that bears to the capacity of the river. I have here a memorandum from Professor Haanel in these words :

On the authority of Professor Herdt, of Montreal, the velocity of the Klondike is seven miles an hour, the average width 275 feet and the average depth feet. This will correspond to a delivery of 395,266 miners' inches.
The miners' inch was defined by Order it Council of the 19th of May, 1902, to be a discharge of 11 cubic feet per minute.
Tims the hon. gentleman will see that these 395,266 miners' inches representing nearly 11 cubic feet per minute of a flow, would certainly leave what is called a margin for the general public even if some one was to get 5,200 cubic feet per minute.


Robert Laird Borden: X thought the miners were to have 3,500 miners' inches and that all the rest was to go to these concessionaires. The Order in Council says :
Provided the licensed holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike river shall be entitled as against the grantees to the use of a flow of water sufficient for working their claims hut not exceeding in all three thousand five hundred (3,500) miners' inches, equal to five thousand two hundred and fifty (5,250) cubic feet per minute.
After the miners get their 5,250 cubic feet all the rest will belong to these concessionaires.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That may be the hon. gentleman's opinion as a member of this House, but I do not think it is his opinion as a member of the bar.


Robert Laird Borden: I will tell the hon. gentleman what my opinion is as a member of the bar if he wants it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am sure he would not say that it would lead to any such conclusion.


Robert Laird Borden: What is your conclusion ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My conclusion is that the license holders on the Klondike river have a prior right to 3,500 miners' inches. The grant made to the grantees is named. If the whole of the rest of the water was to be given to the grantees what would be the sense of saying that they should have the right to the use of the water up to 5,250 cubic feet. I am sure my hon. friend will not press that point any further.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: My hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) is evidently right and you are evidently wrong.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is not so very long ago that hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House were evidently right on a legal question-the construction of the British North America Act. One after another got up in this House and presented an elaborate and learned argument to show that the representation of the various provinces should go in a certain way. It was found a few days, afterwards by the Supreme Court that every one of
these lion, gentlemen was wrong in his opinion of the law. They are bold to give their opinion again on the law.


John Graham Haggart: Are you paying a compliment to the Supreme Court now ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am not paying any compliment, but I am just paying what is justly due to the Supreme Court.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the hon. gentleman would just give his own construction as he says we are wrong as to sections 1 and 2.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Does my hon. friend refer to the first or second Order iu Council ?


Robert Laird Borden: To the second Order in Council-that of April 21, 1902.
I want to understand it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is fair. Under section one, the concessionaires are given power to erect dams on the Klondike and take water from the Klondike for the purpose of generating power with which to pump the water for use iu a certain district named. Power is not given to them to take water for hydraulic or mining purposes, but to take water to generate electric power which will in turn set their machinery to work which will pump the water. That is the power which is given to them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have they the sole power to do that ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes, my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) has the clause before him.


Mr. PRINGLE.: As I read section one of the last Order in Council it says :
The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points between its entry into the Yukon river and Plat creek.
Then it says :
Provided that if the right given by this section is not exercised within six years from the date hereof, it may be revoked by order of the Governor General in Council.
Is that right to be tied up for a period of six years to these concessionaires ? Could not these concessionaires by injunction restrain any other company or individual from taking water from the Klondike river between these points.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not appear to know that this Order in Council as yet has no legal validity. It gives no legal right. There are other things that have to be done with Orders in Council before they can have the force of law, but this Order in Council is an evidence of faith towards the concessionaires in the hope that they may be enabled-to induce capital to come to Canada and erect these works.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. Postmaster General admit that the Order in Council is not valid ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I mean to say that an additional step has to be taken to confer legal rights under the Order in Council.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: What additional step i


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Orders in Council such as these dealing with mining rights do not give powers to the grantees to exercise these rights until these Orders in Council are gazetted. Then, they become law. They are not gazetted at the present time. They are reserved, but if the concessionaires should show that they are able to raise the funds to erect these valuable public works, then it will be for the government to consider whether or not they would confirm the concession, but at the present time they simply have these Orders in Council indicating what they think it would be proper to do provided they could see that they are able to proceed satisfactorily.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: What about the telegram from the board of trade ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I now come to section 10. The hon. member for Montmorency said that there was no material difference between the two Orders in Council. The meeting of miners asked that in addition to relief from the monopoly in respect to bed rock flumes there should also be a change in the regulations in regard to abandoned claims. They contended that in a former Order in Council the grantees secured rights to abandoned claims and were not therefore obliged to do any work in the way of providing hydraulic power. But, the abandoned claims would not have had any value without the addition of the water. When the representatives of the Yukon miners appeared before the government. this point was thoroughly discussed and a new clause was framed and this has taken the place of the old one in the new Order in Council. I would refer my hon. friend to section 10. Section 10 reads as follows :
The right subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output to make entry for and work any abandoned mining claim or claims on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, such right to he exercisable only when the grantees by the construction of works in pursuance of this franchise are in a position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working thereof.
Under the former order, it was argued that they might appropriate the abandoned claims and never expend a dollar in the erection of these works, but under the present order that is entirely changed, and tliev have no right whatever to an abandoned claim until they have laid water to it, and Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.
then they have only the chanee of the general public who may step in and stake a claim and prevent the concessionaries getting it. So far as staking abandoned claims is concerned, they are only given the same rights as are given to any other person who may go to the Yukon. My hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) takes exception to the clause in this agreement which exempts the grantees from representation or the payment of fees. It is correct that the grantees are so exempt, but there are reasons for that. It is the effort of the government to induce these grantees to proceed and if possible to successfully carry out this undertaking. This is not -a very attractive proposition to the grantees. Up to this moment they have not been able to find capitalists to see anything in it. They got the first concession in January, 1901. Over two years have elapsed since then, and if this were such a valuable franchise ; if there were such fortunes in it, don't you think that the shrewd business world of London, where those people are men of influence, would have long since contributed to the capital to provide for the carrying out of this alleged improvident transaction ? But as yet they have not been able to convince any person that there is any money in this enterprise. When the second Order in Council was passed, consideration had to be had to expenditures already made. My hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) says that tinder the new arrangement we abandon the clause requiring the expenditure of $250,000. That is correct. The first Order in Council called for the expenditure of money, and the grantees proceeded to expend money. They engaged some of the most able hydraulic engineers of England ; they sent out to the Klondike Sir Thomas Tancred, a very high authority, -and they expended a large sum of money in investigation and research.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am told by Mr. Bnrwick, that up to the time of the cancellation of the order the grantees had expended over $50,000.


John Graham Haggart: Was there any work done on the ground ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Not on the ground. They had to pay very large fees to the engineers, and other expenses, which Mr. Barwick informs me amounted to over $50,000. They had that amount of money at stake when the first Order in Council was cancelled, and therefore, they had the material interest of following their money in prosecuting the work. They have already, therefore, $50,000 in jeopardy, all of which will be lost unless they can turn the grant to practical use.-


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was there anybody else
Invited to go and examine the ground and
see what the proposition had in it ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think there were various parties making other proposals.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will these proposals he laid on the Table ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I only know that from general hearsay.
Mi-. CLARKE. Newspaper reports V


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am told that all the papers have been brought down. Then I come to another provision in this agreement, and I think lion, gentlemen will see that it is a clause which does a great service to the community. The scheme, whilst giving to the grantees the right to erect works, to generate power, and the right to make use of the water the same as others ; does not give them the exclusive right, but entitles the general public to water just the same as the general public are entitled to water from the city of Ottawa. The public of the Yukon have the same right to water and power as any private citizen in this city, and therefore, this is a public enterprise in which the whole community, on payment of a proper toll, will be entitled to share. Under the regulations it is left to the Gold Commissioner to fix all compensation arising under this grant. If the private user desires to have the price fixed, and if he cannot agree with the company, the Gold Commissioner fixes the price subject to an appeal to a higher tribunal.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How does the Gold Commissioner or the government know whether the price fixed is a reasonable one or not ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The Gold Commissioner lives in the Yukon, and the people of the Yukon will know. There will be some way of ascertaining what is reasonable ; that is a question of opinion. At all events it is left to the Gold Commissioner and the Territorial Court of the district to settle a question of that kind. I do not know of a fairer tribunal ; perhaps my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) does. However, that may be, in trusting the rights of the people in an important matter of this kind to the Gold Commissioner, with the right of appeal to the Territorial Court, it does not, at least to my mind, indicate carelessness, improvidence, or fraud when we are trying to bring water within the reach of the people in order to develop that country.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman (Hon. Sir William Mulock) is relying on the words : ' Any question of compensation.'


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes, certainly, under the grant. The three differences which I have pointed out to the House are the three variations that the representations of the miners' have asked to be made. These three variations were made, and I would mention this circumstance : that when
the Minister of the Interior contemplated considering the change in this Order in Council, he found no hesitation whatever on the part of the grantees to the change being made. On the contrary, so little importance did they attach to their rights under the circumstances, they being so unprofitable up to that moment, that they readily consented to the cancellation of the Order in Council. There are a number of provisions in the Order in Council of 1901 which have been omitted from the new Order in Council. For example, section 3, of the old Order in Council has been omitted, and it reads as follows :
The right on the creels or tributary within the district to divert, take, impound and store for mining purposes any water not used by any free miner for the working of his claim on such creek or tributary under the regulations now in force for placer mining or respecting the diversion of water for mining purposes in the Yukon Territory.
That section has been left out of the new Order in Council. Again under the old Order in Council, it was provided that' the grantees should have an extension of time for the completion of their works in the event of delay caused by various things, such as floods, war, civil commotions, accidents to ( machinery or works, and other inevitable causes. That is omitted from the new Order in Council, and they are held more firmly to the time than before. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think I have pointed out a number of very material variations between the old order and the new ; and yet my hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) said he saw no difference whatever between the old and the new. With reference to that part of my hon. friend's speech wherein he first of all stated that there had been large tracts of country withdrawn from entry, I think he was under the impression that they were withdrawn from entry before the granting of the first Order in Council. I take the liberty of correcting him. He read from the Dawson ' Sun ' a statement showing, as he supposed, a large area which that paper said was granted to these concessionaries. My hon. friend seems to suggest that entry had been closed in respect to a number of these creeks in order to enlarge the area to be granted to these concessionaries. He tells us it will have that effect. On that point he was not just.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: That is imt my contention. Do not put words in my mouth which I did not use.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not intend to do so. I have given the hon. gentleman credit for a desire not to mislead, but I want to correct him. It is true, at one time, Dominion creek and Bonanza creek and their tributaries were closed against entry; but it is not correct to say that they were closed against entry at the time of the granting of the first Order in

Council, 'They had been re-opened prior to that time.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: When ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I cannot give the exact date.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: I have it here.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Then the hon. gentleman can give it.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: The lltli of April, 1902, by a telegram from the Minister of the Interior.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, that is wrong.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Then the return to the motion is wrong, because that is where I got it.


Robert Laird Borden: I can give the hon. gentleman the text of it if he wishes :
Office of tlie Gold Commissioner of the Yukon Territory,
Dawson, Y.T., April 11, 1902.
The Secretary,
Department of the Interior,
Ottawa.
Sir,-I beg to acknowledge the receipt of the following telegram from the Hon. Clifford Sif-ton to the Gold Commissioner : ' Throw open for entry at once all the lapsed and abandoned claims withheld from entry by reason of Tread-gold Order in Council.'
The minister's instructions in this matter have been carried out, and upon the receipt of the telegram the following notice was posted by the Gold Commissioner :
Dawson, Y.T., April 17, 1902,
4.30 p.m.
Notice is hereby given that from the above period all the lapsed and abandoned claims withheld from entry by reason, of the Treadgold Order in Council are ouen_ to locations by free miners under the Placer Mining Regulations.
(Sgd)	D. PATULLO,
Assistant Gold Commissioner.
Might I ask my hon. friend, while I am on my feet, to state which of these Orders in Council were cancelled and which were "not ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I will try to answer that question; but I will say to my bou. friend lirst that tlie telegram which be lias read does not touch tlie point to which I am referring. I will read a memorandum from Mr. Iiyley, of tlie Department of the Interior :
The claims which were reserved from entry on Dominion Bonanza, and tributaries, were open for entry some time before the Order in Council of June, 1901.
This memorandum was sent to me from the gallery. I * suppose that if the officer had been in the department, he would have given the exact date. So that it will he seen that the grant is not so large as my hon. friend thinks.


Robert Laird Borden: If that had anything to do with this, why was it not brought down with the return ?


William Mulock: 


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I suppose there are many things which might have to do with the debate here which would not form part of the return. It would depend on the wording of the order. I do not know what tlie order called for.
Now, Mr. Speaker, to summarize the effect of this order. The order in a nutshell is that if the grantees should succeed in raising capital, it will be their privilege to erect works upon the Klondike for the purpose of generating electric power. It will be their privilege to use, subject to certain restrictions, water for hydraulic purposes. It will be the right of the public to take such power as the concessionaires do not use, and to pay therefor such price as may be fixed by tbe Governor in Council. It will be tbe right of the public to compel tlie company to sell to them whatever water is available at such price as may be fixed by the Gold Commissioner, or, in case of appeal, by the Territorial Court of the district. These material rights are secured to the public, arid all they have to pay for these rights is what may be fixed by the Governor in Council or by the Territorial Court. Tlie public are not excluded from an inch of the country. They have an equal right with these grantees to enter on any of the abandoned claims. The only exclusive grants conveyed to the grantees are in respect to the water privileges for generating power, and, sub motu, to use a certain portion of the water themselves. You cannot find in these documents anything giving the grantees any exclusive privilege except as the people's representatives fix. These are some of the reasons, and the chief reasons doubtless, why capitalists have failed to find in this scheme any such attractions as to induce them to embark capital in it.	.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have these people not six years to raise that capital, and is not that privilege tied up for that time ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is not tied up one day if we choose to repeal it. These gentlemen, we hope, will succeed iu raising the money necessary to build these works. If they do not, hon. gentlemen opposite will have the credit of preventing them. They have already paralyzed the enterprise.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Have any petitions been received from the Yukon in favour of this concession being continued ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We have received the most complete communication from the Yukon in regard to this matter, and the general policy of the government that could be desired. We heard the voice of the people a few months ago. I believe, Mr. Speaker, the candidate of hon. gentlemen opposite lost his deposit. So you see there is some money left in the treasury there yet.


Robert Laird Borden: Because the other candidate was pledged to repeal this concession.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Sent here on purpose to repeal the concession.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not know that he was. He was pledged to promote the best interests of the Yukon, and he is doing it, and we are doing it.
I wish hon. gentlemen opposite were doing the same thing. I may not have dealt with this matter to the satisfaction of hon. gentlemen opposite; but I think I have dealt with it at least in such a way as to show the House and the country that this measure is one in the interest of the Yukon. Unless it is prevented from coming to fruition by obstacles thrown in its way, the time is not far distant when the people who make these charges will wonder at the attitude they have assumed; and among those who will be repentant for their mistakes will be some hon. gentlemen opposite, who will have ample opportunity to do so in the shades of opposition.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman did not give the information I asked for. I asked him to state which of these Orders in Council had not been gazetted, I understood him to say that the Orders in Council did not come into force until they were gazetted. It is perfectly obvious that the first Order in Council must have been gazetted because it was acted upon.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: How ?


Robert Laird Borden: By the closing of the abandoned claims to public entries, as the correspondence amply shows.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not think that the closing of the claims proves that the Order in Council was acted upon.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the hon. gentleman state whether or not the Order in Council was gazetted ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am pleased to give the hon. gentleman any information neoessary, and there is no occasion for him to show any temper or heat, though I suppose we should make some allowance. The second Order in Council was never gazetted. I did not make any inquiry, but if I can see any of the officials before eight o'clock, I shall do so.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Under what law was it passed ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman knows all the law.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: That is why I want you to state it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Under tiie Dominion Lands Act, section 51.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Which does not ajgply at all.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with every attention to the remarks of the Postmaster General and Minister of Labour (Hon. Sir William Mulock). I only wish that the task of replying to the hon. gentleman had fallen on worthier shoulders. It is probably for me rather a difficult task to stand up here and advocate the claims of those whom we may term the gum-boot miners, the men whose enterprise, labour and endurance of hardships have made for Canada all that is worth while in the Klondike to-day.
I was surprised to find the hon. Minister of Labour standing up here and, instead of advocating the cause of the miners, advocating the cause of the concessionaires of the monopolists, of the men who have obtained as I shall show an iniquitous concession from this government. And, Sir, what is the answer of the hon. Minister of Labour to the very able arraignment made by the hon. member for Montmorency (Mr. Cas-grain) ? His one answer to the accusation is :	Why, Sir, in the election of December 2, the Hon. Mr. Ross was returned as a member of the House of Commons; he was returned as a supporter of this government. But let us for a moment pause and see on what platform the hon. gentleman was returned. Was he returned as a supporter of this concession which we are now attacking ? Or was he returned as opposed to that concession ? Let us look for a moment at the platform of the Liberal party, in that election and see what it advocated. Let us examine the address of the hon. gentleman who was returned as a supporter of this government. I think this examination will convince you that he was returned pledged to oppose this concession, pledged to see that this concession was abolished. This is the platform ^dopted by the Liberal convention, and in every clause it is an arraignment of the present government. It begins :
Whereas, in the opinion of this convention the continued prosperity of the Yukon Territory depends chiefly on the efforts of individual miners and prospectors whose work is conducted under most difficult conditions, and the stability of the business of the country will be insured by furnishing regular employment to workmen ; therefore, be it
Resolved, that every effort should be made by the government to secure, and have such changes adopted as would secure, the ends desired ; that this convention most strongly recommends :-
1.	Reduction of fees for miners' licenses and for recording and renewing claims.
2.	The abolition of payment of commutation for assessment work, and compelling the per-

formanoe of assessment work upon the claim Itself or upon the claims as grouped.
Then follow seven or eight clauses, and the platform continues :
Whereas, in the opinion of the convention the matter of such supply

That Is dealing with the supply of water-
-on fair and reasonable terms should best be dealt with by the government itself, and should not be left to private individuals ; therefore, be it
Resolved, that the government be requested immediately to make careful examination and obtain reports upon the subject with a view to cancelling forthwith the Treadgold concession and undertaking such supply as a national enterprise.
Then, Sir, the hon. Minister of Labour said that the government were accused of granting these concessions by misrepresentation and fraud. Wbo accused them of it ? Was it not the Liberal convention who accused them ? At a meeting of Liberals held in tlbe Yukon, the resolutions were passed stating that these concessions were granted by misrepresentation and fraud, and asking the government to cancel these concessions or, at least, to have an investigation in regard to it. Now, the platform goes on to say :
Resolved, that in the opinion of this convention many of the concessions now held were obtained by fraud and impositions ; that it is in the interest of this territory that such concessions should be annulled, and to that end that inquiry should be set on foot to ascertain the circumstances of such fraud and imposition and action taken by the Attorney General of Canada in the premises.
I repeat that these accusations of fraud and imposition come from the Liberals in the Yukon. I will not read all the platform adopted by the Liberal convention. But I will read the last clause :
And that the owners of hydraulic concessions already granted should be compelled to carry out the strict terms of their leases, and that in default of their so doing, their leases should be cancelled.
What was the answer of the Hon. James Ross to the platform of the convention as laid down ? In his address to the electors of the Yukon, he saitf:
I freely subscribe to every measure suggested therein. In respect to most of the planks, they are in perfect accord with the policy I have sought to have adopted in the Yukon. I recognize that the whole business life of the Yukon depends upon the success of the prospector and miner and they above all others should be encouraged.
Then in regard to the charges of fraud and misrepresentation, what does the hon. gentleman say ? He says :
The thorough investigation of the charges of fraud made in respect to the manner in which certain concessions are alleged to have been obtained, and if such fraud is established, the immediate commencement of such proceedings as may be required to vacate the grant and the enforcement of strict compliance with the con- I Mr. PRINGLE.
ditions embodied in all crown grants in the Yukon.
And let me read one other little paragraph :
I believe, that the Yukon is only in its infancy and that so far from its resources being exhausted, they have scarcely been touched, and the prosperity of the future will dwarf into insignificance all the success of the past. I was engaged in an endeavour to revise and codify not merely the mining laws but all the laws specially applicable to the Yukon when my illness interrupted the work. I think this work most essential in order that the laws may be fixed, clear and certain. With respect to the mining laws I propose to have them codified and then submitted to representative miners for criticism, alteration and approval in order that they may as far as possible meet with the approval of the mining community.
So, there is the platform upon which the Hon. James Hamilton Ross was elected as a representative of the people of the Yukon and as a government supporter in this House. Now, the hon. Minister of Labour dwelt a great deal upon the election of Mr. Ross asi si government supporter. Let me say a word further in regard to that election. I find from the returns that, at that election, there were 5,100 votes cast, of which Mr. Ross received 2,971, and Mr. Clarke, 2,079, there were 100 spoiled ballots. But I find, from examination of the papers, that there was a great deal of dissatisfaction with regard to that election. I know that in the election which followed, on the 17th of January, the three leaders of the poll aggregated only 1,018 votes, though circumstances were such as to favour a larger vote than that of the 2nd of December, and the element beaten on the 2nd of December was triumphant on the 15th of January all along the line. At Miller's creek, where the whole population does not exceed forty, there were 101 votes cast for the hon. member for the Yukon. At. Cariboo crossing where the population is less than twenty, 109 votes were cast for the hon. member for the Yukon, go I do not think that the Postmaster General should take such great credit for the election of the Hon. James Boss.
Now, Sir, while 1 am pleased with the statements made by the Postmaster General in regard to the charges of misrepresentation and fraud, let me for a moment refer to a very large meeting that was held by the Liberal party in the Yukon, where resolutions were passed in reference to this matter. This was a meeting of the Liberal Association :
The Liberal Association of Dawson met at the Pioneer Hall on Saturday night, and condemned in no uncertain tones the Order in Council of December 7, making Treadgold & Co. heirs to all the Klondike on this side of the Dome. A resolution was passed unanimously calling on the ministers of the Crown to secure its cancellation, and also to Mr. Commissioner Ross urging him to use all the powers at his disposal to prevent the law ever being enforced. A resolution was also passed unanimously that the

first resolution be telegraphed at once to each of the ministers and to Mr. Ross.
This meeting was held in March, 1902.
The vice-president, F. T. Congdon, called the meeting to order and stated its objects. Mr. Congdon's remarks were to the point at once. He pointed out that public feeling had in a few days been aroused as it had not been aroused in a long while, yet he thought that notwithstanding the seriousness of the occasion and the enormity of the mistake that had been made, it was not an occasion warranting extreme action ; indeed; he thought that the best results would be obtained by calm discussion, and the proper advising of the ministers In whose hands lay the remedy. Above all he thought no political capital was to be made of the ill-advised action of the government. The grant or Order in Council of December 7th had clearly been secured by the grossest misrepresentation and in violation of all the principles of right. Canadian soil was not the property of the government. The government only held It in trust for the people at large.
Who is it that makes this statement ? The man who is the present Governor of the Yukon, tlie man *who is a supporter of the present government. He goes on to say :
The facts so familiar to each and every one of his hearers, he believed it had not been called to the attention of the government, and he thought the government had been grossly imposed on. The Order in Council has already been passed and the law of contracts stood in the way of the cancellation of the contract at' the will of one of the makers ; but there is another provision of the law just as powerful and binding where a contract can be shown to have been made by misrepresentation and fraud, its provisions could be set aside, and he believed there would be no difficulty in this case in showing such misrepresentations to have been made and many important facts withheld.
Now, Mr. Speaker, there were resolutions passed at that large gathering of Liberals in the Yukon, and this is one of the resolutions :
Resolved, that the commissioner's attention be called to the fact, and that he be requested to represent to the government that in the opinion of this meeting, the insertion of any such features in' the Orders in Council could only have been procured by the grossest misrepresentation and fraudulent concealment ; that it never could have been represented to the minister who proposed said Orders or to the Governor in Council that the Orders were an interference with and abrogation of vested rights ; that it was retroactive in operation and most far reaching and uncertain in effect ; that it was certain to produce distrust and lack of confidence among the mining communities of this territory and prove fatal to the progress of the territory ; nor could it have been presented and made apparent that the only consideration promised for the enormous interests granted was a monopoly to supply water at an exorbitant and prohibitive price.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I regret sincerely tlie absence of the bon. the Minister of the Interior. If we are to believe report, he sailed from England on the same ship that
Jlr. Treadgold sailed on, and they are now, no doubt, in the city of London. I regret his absence, because I would like to have heard his explanations in regard to all these different concessions, and especially in regard to this Treadgold concession. I regret also the absence of the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Ross). I find, Sir, that he is paraded in the official organ of the Liberal party as having reached parliament and as having obtained great and important results for the miners of that section of the country. Let me just refer to the reception of Governor Congdon upon his arrival in the Yukon, and to his statements in regard to this Treadgold concession. I will refer to the Yukon ' Sun,' the official organ, as I understand, of the Liberal party. There is also an interview with Governor Congdon in the ' Dawson Daily News.' What does the Governor say in regard to this concession :
As to the Treadgold concession, I may say I favour its cancellation.
This was on Thursday April, 9, 1903, months after the election of the hon. member for the Yukon.
I am in the same position regarding the subject as I always have been. I am satisfied that he should have no more privileges than any one else. I will not say that I favour the total cancellation

He has changed his mind since being appointed Governor. Prior to his appointment as Governor he was in favour of the total and absolute cancellation of the Treadgold concession. He now says :
I will not say that I favour the total cancellation of the Treadgold concession, that is, I shall not*put it in that way, but say I believe he should have no privileges that others do not have. As to what parliament is likely to do with the matter I cannot say. I feel that if the government will install a supply of water for the camp it will be a great enterprise and give an impetus to the mining industry. Mr. Ross is working on the scheme, and will urge parliament to send a corps of experts here to investigate the feasibility and desirability of such a system. It is the intention of Mr. Ross to get the government to send the most competent engineers that can be found in the world. Parliament doubtless will deal with this matter deliberately, and it is not to be expected an appropriation will be made for the installation of such a gigantic plant now in the short time the session will last. Heavy projects progress slowly, and if Mr. Ross succeeds in getting an appropriation this season for the expenses of a corps of experts to investigate the field and desirability of the scheme, he will be doing well. If after all a government supply of water is not to be obtained we should have water from some source. But the government does not know our needs and will first have to satisfy itself as to the prospects for permanency of the placers and the need of water over the camp as a whole. The needs of a few would not justify such a great expenditure as is contemplated.


Mr. TAYLOR.: What Is the date of that paper ?


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: April 9, 1903, the ' Dawson Daily News.' Now, Sir, let me quote from the ' Yukon Sun.' One cannot read any of the editorials of the 'Yukon Sun' without coming to the conclusion that it is the organ of the Liberal party in that territory. In the first place, I will quote from the 'Yukon Weekly Sun' of Saturday, April 4 :
The Treadgold concession stands a poor show. Must be ratified by the present parliament or it falls to the ground. Mr. Ross will oppose its ratification.


Mr. SPROULE.: Why is he not here V


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: If the Treadgold concession comes up in the House for ratification, Yukon's member will oppose it. Section 5 of ' An Act to amend the Yukon Act,' passed last session, provided that all regulations passed applying or relating to Yukon Territory, will remain in force only until approved by resolution of both Houses of parliament. Prom the records received here from Dawson, it appears that people there are under a misapprehension in regard to this provision. All the regulations to be operative must be approved by parliament to keep them in force beyond the date of prorogation of the present session. The Treadgold Order in Council must therefore be approved at the present session or it will fall to the ground. As already said, if it comes up in the House, Mr. Ross will oppose it.
I have been in this House since the opening almost every day, and up to the present time I have not heard any great opposition coming from the hon. member from the Yukon. That hon. gentleman has been doing great things, but, I challenge any hon. gentleman here to tell ns what he has done in the House. Here is an editorial in the official organ of the Liberal party at Dawson, the Yukon ' Sun ' of March 28tli. It says :


JIM ROSS, M.P.
[Stage Direction]
Is he a lightning striker ? We should remark that he is. Saturday afternoon he arrived at Ottawa. Sunday he received the members of the House and Senate and made friends for Yukon. Monday he was introduced in the House, upon which occasion he was cheered to the echo. The premier of Canada introduced him. Immediately after the introduction he secured the passage of a Bill granting extended powers to the Yukon council. Tuesday he spent the forenoon in the Department of the Interior looking after matters pertaining to the Yukon. Wednesday he had the price of free miners certificate reduced to $7.50.
I can give him or somebody credit for having these fees reduced. I find that it was managed within a very short time, and the fee is now reduced to 87.50. Then it says :
The record fees from $15 to $10, renewal fees from $15 to $10, and payment of money in lieu of assessment work abolished. What he did yesterday is not known at the time this is written, but the telegraphic advices pointed on the first page of this issue will tell. If Jim Ross keeps up his present gait it will only take Mr. PRINGLE.
him a week to perform all the seeming impossibilities of the platform prepared here for him, bound him to.
Why, the platform provided for him bound him to abolish this Treadgold concession, and according to this editorial of the official organ of the Liberal party in the Yukon, if he kept up his gait, in a week he was going to have this Treadgold concession abolished. He seemed to have slackened his gait, because we have not heard anything of the Treadgold concession since the hon. member arrived in Ottawa. It says further :
The judgment of the voters of the Yukon in electing Mr. Ross is apparent. No man would have the assurance to even insinuate that Mr. Clarke could have done the good work for the Yukon that Mr. Ross has already done. Mr. Ross goes to Ottawa as a friend of the party in power. He was received with distinguished honours and is able to win some consideration for us each day. Mr. Clarke would have gone as an avowed enemy of the party in power, would have talked anarchy to every reporter who would listen to him along the route, and we would have received about as little consideration in parliament as he might with reason expect. The judgment of the people of the Territory of Yukon can be depended upon. And that judgment was never better demonstrated than in their selecting ' Jim ' Ross to represent them in parliament.
But, in the same edition of this paper, Mr. .Tim Ross is going to abolish the Tread-gold concession, and he is going to establish a national work to supply water for the miners of that country. Now, it is not very hard to understand, after the explanations I have given in regard to this election, how the hon. member was elected for the Yukon. I find, at any rate it is alleged in certain documents, that in the Yukon Territory, there is one official for every fifteen miners in the district, and I have no doubt that these officials did not neglect to vote for the hon. gentleman. I desire to approach this matter in a fair, impartial and calm spirit. The hon. Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) accused the hon. member for Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) of making an inflammatory speech. In that he accused him improperly. I think, we in this House, should agree, and that the hon. the Postmaster General, who is also Minister of Labour, should agree with the proposition that the policy should be to give every advantage to the practical miner over the mere speculator, and that is the policy that I desire to advocate.
I know that it is very often difficult to advocate the policy of the miner against the hon. Postmaster General, who is advocating the policy of the monopolists, and who is advocating the policy of these concessionaires. I would have expected that the hon. Postmaster General would have advocated the cause of the miner, the cause of the labourer, the cause of the men who have done so much to bring to the knowledge of the people of the world Dawson and the

Klondike. We have only to look back a few years, to tbe time when these names were unknown throughout the civilized world, but to-day, Dawson and the Klondike are known from one end of the world to the other, and if they are known they are known through the efforts of the hardy men who went into that country as prospectors and who developed the mines of that region. These are the men we should protect, and these are the men who are entitled to the protection of the members of this House. Let me quote briefly from a little work that was published by a man who was in Dawson City and who went into that country to see the conditions existing there. What did he find ? Did he find that the affairs of the country were administered properly ? No Sir, he found that the condition of the miners there under the regulations adopted by the government was worse than the condition of the Uitlanders in South Africa. The work is entitled ' The Klondike Stampede ' and it is edited by Mr. Tappan Abney, special correspondent of ' Harper's Weekly ' in the Klondike. He says :
In the Klondike, those who best knew the country's needs had no voice whatever in its government ; all laws were made at Ottawa, and those sent out to enforce them were responsible only to the home government, or to the officials to whom they owed their appointment. Dawson was an ' alien ' camp, where, if the position of the majority of the residents was different from the ' Uitlander ' at Johannesburg, it was only that the laws were in intent more liberal. Distant, weeks and months from the seat of responsibility, it is not difficult to understand how, even if government intended well, the condition of the miner might be scarcely better than that of his unfortunate confrere in the Boer republic. In fact, conditions which actually prevailed at Dawson were likened by British citizens direct from1 the Transvaal as even worse than what they left.
The natural difficulties that stood in the way of putting into immediate operation an effective government were so great that one should not judge the Klondikers too harshly. On the other hand, if there were not serious disorders it was due less to the duality of government than to the orderly character of the population, and to the fact that men were there enduring the privations of an Arctic climate to make their fortunes and get away, not to help set in order the political households of their Canadian friends.
Now, Sir, he goes on to say
While the law required the ' gum-boot ' miner to stake in person, so-called 'dredging permits,' in five-mile blocks, were granted over fifteen hundred miles of Klondike and Yukon streams to men who, for the most part, had never seen, nor intended to see, the Yukon. Such, in brief, are the regulations now in force which further provide for the sale of timber-berths to private parties, whereby miners are virtually prevented from cutting wood, even for their own use, except on such terms as the monopolists concede. The tendency of the new legislation is against the ' gum-boot ' miner, the man whose enterprise, labours, and hardships have made for Canada all that is worth while in the Klondike to-day. This is always 90
the inevitable trend, but never in any camp has so much been done in so short a time in that direction as in the Canadian camp.
He goes on to deal with the public officials in the Yukon, and he says :
Afterwards, emboldened by the impotency of the commissioner to correct these abuses, favoured ones began to be admitted during office hours, upon passes, and recorded claims ahead of men who had been waiting often for days in line outside. It became recognized by everyone who was obliged to deal with the office that the only way of getting even what belonged to him was to bribe an official. Appeal to the Gold Commissioner was as likely as not met with dismissal in an arbitrary, unjust, or illegal manner. During the greater part of the rush there was no one to verify measurements of claims (only survey by Dominion land surveyors being recognized officially). The commissioner was in ignorance of the location and identity of creeks; he would give two different names to the same creek, not knowing them to be the same; he would grant the same claim to different men, and yet refuse, when the fact was proven, to refund the record fee to one of them; he allowed two discoveries on one creek, and claims became so mixed, in consequence of overlapping between discoveries, that he was obliged to close the creek, to the great loss of miners, who were not allowed to record (pending arrival of official surveyors), and who were holding the claims in person, in compliance with the mining law. Thus, between the incompetency of the commissioner and the corruption of his clerks, legitimate business came almost to a standstill. The general law of Canada, providing that no person should suffer from the Incompetency of an official, was of no effect to the poor miner, who had neither money nor time to obtain the remedy.
Tbe author of this work is an entirely independent naan who went into that country, and he tells here of the way in which he found the public business administered. It is my opinion, Sir, that the evils were not so great at the time that work was written as they are at present. Since the publication of that work we find that large concessions have been granted in that territory to what are called concessionaires, and that tlie miners have been practically driven out of certain sections of the country. We find that as early as 1898 the government began to close the placer ground of this territory against location by the placer miners. In that year a large tract of Dominion creek was from time to time closed. In the same year also, fractional claims were closed against location. In February, 1898, the Minister of the Interior directed that Bonanza and Eldorado, and their tributaries and benches should be closed against location, and I may say that so far as I can ascertain these were amongst the richest creeks in that section of the country. This was followed in October, 1899, by a regulation closing all lapsed claims in the territory against relocation. In the year and a half that followed, silently at Ottawa and without the knowledge of the Yukon people, and on the flimsiest pretexts, the greater part of the richest placer ground was included in what
[Stage Direction]
A
was called hydraulic concessions. On Hunker creek were granted to Williams two and a half square miles; to Milne, two square miles; to Anderson, two and half square miles. On the Klondike, including Bear and Lindow creeks, to Boyle, fifty square miles. While the miner could only take up so many feet as a claim, the government were granting here concessions of from ten to fifty miles. On Bonanza there was given to Philip, five square miles; to Bronson & Bay, fifteen square miles; to Matson & Doyle, three square miles, and on Quartz creek, fcur square miles were granted to the same Boyle. I may say that this man Boyle seems to be a very favoured individual of the government of this country. He seemed to have no trouble in getting concession after concession in the richest and best portion of the Yukon Territory. I find Mr. Boyle sold these concessions later on to other parties at enormous figures. As I say, on Poors creek another concession of about four square miles was granted to the same Boyle, while the other creeks were almost similarly blanketed by concessions which were obtained-in the words of the Liberal convention; in the words of the Liberals present at that meeting-I am only repeating their language when I say that these concessions were obtained largely by fraud.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.
Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Now Sir, the miners of the Yukon take this ground, and it seems to be a proper ground to take-the Liberal party in the Yukon take this ground, and they evidently consider it a proper ground, namely : that these concessions which were granted on misrepresentation and fraud should be annulled. I believe, Sir, that every one of them can be cancelled because of the breach of the conditions stipulated in their leases.
Now, Sir, we come to Mr. Treadgold, and I want to say here that I have not a word-to say personally in regard to Mr. Tread-gold, in regard to Walter Barwick, K.C., in regard to Mr. Ewing or any of the men who have obtained concessions from this government. I have nothing whatever to say with regard to these men. I don't think they are philanthropists; I don't think they were getting this concession for the benefit of the miners, but I do think and I have no doubt that they were getting this concession for the benefit of themselves, and a very valuable concession it was. If the report of the Dawson Board of Trade, and if the report of the engineers of that company be correct, it was a concession which would make these men millionaires in very short order. Mr. Treadgold appeared on the scene in 1898, and I am informed that he was welcomed to the Yukon as being a representative of British capital. He began at once to acquire placer claims of value. In 1899 and 1900 he purchased interests in the Boyle Mr. PRINGLE.
concession, and other of the infamous concessions which I have already referred to. On the 31st of May, 1900, on the pretense of bringing water to work low grade gravels, he, with Walter Barwick, K.C., and O. N. Ewing, asked for a controlling interest in the rest of the Klondike basin. It is interesting to turn to the request of these concessionaires. On the 31st of May these gentlemen put in their requisition to the hon. Minister of the Interior and in that requisition they state :
The applicants are prepared to undertake the establishment of hydraulic works which will supply water to the auriferous deposits now without water, &c.
In that request of theirs they asked for concessions which the people of the Yukon contend should never have been granted; and, Sir, was there any change made when the government passed the Order in Council ? The Order in Council was passed in the identical language in which these gentlemen asked for the Order. There does not appear to have ever been any discussion by the minister as to whether the request of these gentlemen was reasonable or unreasonable. The Minister of the Interior evidently advised his colleagues that they must grant to these applicants everything they asked for, and the Order in Council was passed on the 12th of June, 1901; and What were they to get under that Order ? They were to get one dollar per miners' inch per hour for water supply. It was a most iniquitous concession, on their own showing, because they came down very shortly afterwards and said :	' We will be very glad
to take twenty-five cents per miners' inch.' The Order was amended shortly afterwards, I think on the 29th of June, 1901, as follows :
The charge which the grantees shall be entitled to make for the use of such water on each placer claim shall not exceed 25 cents per miners' inch per hour.
These gentlemen came down very quickly from a dollar to twenty-five cents.
Now, the hon. Minister of Labour has accused the hon. member front Montmorency of speaking from unofficial documents, from newspapers and from anonymous communications, and he has spoken disparagingly of every source from which the hon. member from Montmorency spoke. Why should he condemn the Yukon Board of Trade, a body composed of both Conservatives and Liberals ? I was surprised, Sir, to hear him condemn that body and term them irresponsible parties. Here is what the board of trade says in regard to this matter :
The Treadgold concession and water grant, as granted by an Order in Council which, when ratified by the parliament at its next session, will become law, is, in the opinion of this board, one of the most iniquitous measures that was ever inflicted upon a people.
The Dawson Board of Trade may be irresponsible, but they are the best represen-
2S53

tative body we can find in the Yukon Territory, and they say that In their opinion this concessionwill work a great hardship upon the people of this territory, since it will mean the virtual bankruptcy of all the property holders of Dawson and surrounding territory, and instead of the Klondike becoming the prosperous country we expect, it will virtually become the property of Mr. Treadgold and those who are associated with him in his scheme.
Why is this concession granted ? Is it granted for the benefit of the miners of the Yukon or for the benefit of these individuals ? We know that everybody in that country is opposed to it. The hon. gentleman said that he had petitions from some sources favouring the concession. I would ask the hon. gentleman to lay those petitions on the Table of this House; we want to see them, because we are advised that the people of the Yukon are a unit agaiust this concession, and we are advised that when the bon. member for the Yukon takes his seat in this House, he will give us active and vigor jus assistance in doing away with it,
Let me read a little from the petition of the board of trade :
The petition of the undersigned residents of the Yukon Territory humbly showeth :
1.	That by Order in Council of April the 21st, 1902, certain privileges are granted to Malcolm Orr Ewing, A. N. C. Treadgold and Walter Bar-wick, in connection with the proposed establishment by them of a system of water supply for washing out gold-hearing gravel in the district therein described, including the Klondike river, Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks and their tributaries.
2.	That the benefits conferred upon the grantees are of incalculable value and involve an enormous exploitation of the public resources of this territory for the benefit of a few favoured concessionaires.
3.	That In the opinion of your petitioners the accumulation of extraordinary powers in the hands of a single corporation such as is effected by the above Order in Council, will lead to the paralysis of the independent commercial and industrial life of the community and will prove in the highest degree oppressive and injurious to the public welfare, since the grantees are thereby enabled to crush out competition and to reduce to a position of practical servitude the individual miners in the extensive district affected which includes the richest portion of the Klondike.
4.	That the need of this territory Is not the . creation of monopolies but their prevention, and
the encouragement of the individual miners by securing equal privileges and opportunities to all as far as the law and the administration can provide them.
We linre a computation made by a very competent gentleman as to the revenues that would be derived by these concessionaires from the concession which is being granted to them by this government. If this computation is at all correct, the amount of money which these people would derive in a very short time is simply fabulous. Let me refer for a moment to the statement made :
Now in order to convey to you some idea of Lhe magnitude of the grant which Mr. Treadgold and his associates are looking for and which it appears likely they will receive, if the intention of the Minister of the Interior is allowed to be carried out, it having been recommended by him, we believe that the said Treadgold and his associates receive the sole and prior right to divert and take water from the Klondike river up to 5.000 miners' inches for distribution and use in the district, said district comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, of Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, and their tributaries, also the right to divert and use the water of Rock creek, which water we are informed by Mr. Joseph McGillivray, a mining engineer of long experience, amounts to 8,000 inches, natural flow, and which would give Mr. Treadgold and associates the sole right to divert and sell 13,000 inches of water. Now, a miner requires with which to sluice his dirt 50 inches of water, which is the amount considered necessary to make a sluice-head, and should the Treadgold Company at the rate which, we understand, is the contemplated charge (25 per cent miners' inch per hour) it would cost the miner $12.50 per hour or $300 per day of 24 hours, which is the length of the working day here during the summer season. Now this grant of 5,000 inches from the Klondike river and the natural flow of Rock creek, amounting to 8,000 inches, making a total of water at Treadgold's command of 13,000 inches, or 260 sluice-heads of 50 inches per sluice-head, costing the miner in this country $78,000 per day, or $10,140,000 per year of 130 sluicing days, which is the length of the sluicing season here, would mean this : that the holder of the same would practically own the country, all the hill claim owners would have to come to him for water, or allow their claim to remain vn-oparated for lack of same, and Mr. Treadgold and his associates would .be receiving all the profits, that would accrue from the thousands of hill claims, situate on the immense and huge gravel deposits with which this country abounds.
I do not see why these gentlemen should get a concession of such tremendous advantage to them. The hon. the Postmaster Genera] has predicted that the opposition will repent the attack on this scheme. It was equally predicted that he would repeat the attack made on the Yukon Railway deal of some years ago. Let me just refer for a moment to the language of the right hon. the Prime Minister, when the little item of $328,508 which this country had to pay to Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann, was before this House. - Here is the item :
To pay amount of judgment of Exchequer Court in favour of Messrs.
Mackenzie & Mann to recoup them for their outlay in connection with proposed contract for a railway from Stickeen river to Teslin lake. $327,678 10 Costs for evidence, &c	 830 20

In the discussion on this item the right hon. gentleman said :
Of course I am hound to say at once that there is no legal recourse against the Canadian government which can be enforced in a court of law, but we admit that Mackenzie & Mann have

a moral claim against the honour of the Canadian people against the honour of the Canadian government and against the honour of the Canadian parliament for the money which they have expended in an enterprise which was national in its character, &c., &c. For these reasons we submit to the Canadian parliament that these men should not be subjected to the heavy loss which would be entailed on them, but as this is a loss which must be borne by somebody, it should be borne by the country and not by the contractors, &c., &c. Of course, if it had not been for the charter which parliament had granted-I will not say improvidently or imprudently, granted, but granted in ignorance of the conditions existing in that country, there would not have been any necessity for such haste.
I have no doubt that my hon. friend the Postmaster General will come down later on in the day and seek to get some compensation for these gentlemen's interests in the Treadgold concessions, because he has told us that they have expended over $50,000 in that concession. Though I am satisfied that this government will never in the face of the opposition from their own friends in the Yukon, in face of the opposition of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ross) who was elected to represent the Yukon district in this House, permit this iniquitous concession to become law, they will no doubt ask for a vote to recoup these people for the expenditure they have made in connection with this concession, just as was done in the MacKenzie & Mann affair. I am not reflecting in any way on Messrs Mackenzie & Mann or anybody else in connection with their scheme, but X say that when the government rushed into it, the conditions of the country were not known or the government would never have committed such a piece of folly. Let me quote again from the work of Tappan Abney on ' The Klondike Stampede.' Referring to the Mackenzie & Mann deal, Mr. Tappan said :
The Canadian Minister of the Interior, the Hon. Clifford Sifton, granted to a firm of contractors, Mesrs Mackenzie & Mann, provisional right to construct a railway from the Stikeen river to the Teslin lake, in return for immense grants of gold-bearing land in the Klondike. Surveys were made and material delivered at the terminus of the proposed road, and tickets were sold in the principal cities of Europe and the United States for through passage to Dawson.
But, he added :
Before the agreement with Mackenzie & Mann was ratified by parliament, however, a committee of miners sent out from Dawson in the fall of 1897 to protest against the royalty tax, discovered and pointed out to parliament the true inwardness of the proposed franchise, the profits on which had been already figured out as $34,000,000, and, as a result of the flood of light they let in upon parliament concerning the Yukon, the Bill was killed.
Then he proceeded :
3,750,000	acres of mineral land in Klondike were to be granted to the contractors, whereas the whole area about Dawson that had been Mr. PRINGLE.
prospected contained only 864,000 acres. They were to be allowed to run their lines along 960 miles of creeks, whereas Bonanza and Eldorado are only thirty-one miles long ; the land was to be held in fee simple, instead of by annual lease ; and royalties on gold were to be only one per cent instead of ten per cent, which were required of all others. In return for which they were to build a narrow-gauge railroad, from a terminus only twenty-six miles nearer Dawson than Skagway-150 miles of tracks, useless for seven months of the year-with right to charge exorbitant tolls, and with a monopoly of railway ingress to the Yukon for five years. It was a grab of nearly everything worth having in the Yukon district.
If that Yukon agreement was a grab of nearly everything worth-having in that district, this Treadgold concession, if we are to believe the Liberals of the Yukon, the board of trade and the miners of that district, is a grab of nearly everything worth having in that territory.
I would like to refer for a moment to something that certainly is not ancient history. I should like to read a telegram sent on March the 6th, 1903, by the board of trade, and to comment on the reply which was sent by the right hon. Prime Minister. I may be very obtuse, but I cannot comprehend exactly the meaning of that answer. This is the message which the board of trade sent:
Dawson opposes any attempt to pass Order in Council or Act of parliament that will in any way confirm the Treadgold concession, are having monster petitions signed, and reliable data prepared to forward to Ottawa asking the government to aid in furnishing water for mining purposes. The people are a unity in making demands and will insist on government cancelling monopoly of Treadgold's octopus.
The reply to that telegram is dated, Ottawa, March the 9th, 1903, sent to H. C. McCullough, president of the board of trade. Evidently the right hon. the First Minister did not share in the opinion of his hon. colleague, the Postmaster General, that this is an irresponsible body.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: If the hon. gentleman will allow me ? On several occasions he has charged me with saying that the board of trade of Dawson is an irresponsible body. I said nothing of the kind. I did not allude to them ; I did not say anything to embrace them, I alluded to the quotations from the press and scrap information of that kind.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Well, I should sincerely regret to misquote the hon. Postmaster General. What I understood him to say-and I took a note of it at the time-was that the hon. member for Montmorency quoted from irresponsible parties.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I did not say that all his quotations were from irresponsible parties. I pointed out that there were quotations of the kind I said.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: Would the hon. minister tell me which of these quotations were from

irresponsible parties Were they tbe quotations from the convention of the Liberal party ? Were they the quotations from the platform of the Hon. James Ross ? Were they the quotations from the platform of the Liberal party as laid down in their convention ? Were they the quotations from the board of trade ? Or what quotations were from irresponsible parties ? If the hon. gentleman will tell me, I will be in a position to take that up.
Now, Sir, failing to get an answer from the Postmaster General, I will proceed with a discussion of these telegrams. To my mind they are ambiguous, I will not say they are deceptive, though that is the term used by some of the parties in the Yukon. What does it mean ? Does it mean that no confirmation is needed ? Does it mean that the Treadgold concession is dead, and that there is no action contemplated by legislation or government order ? Here is the telegram which is signed by the right hon. the Prime Minister :
You are altogether misinformed with regard to what is called the Treadgold concession. No such action contemplated' either by legislation or by government order.
Now, what is the action referred to by the telegram sent to the Dawson Board of Trade ? The only construction that we could place on it is that there is no action contemplated either by legislation or by government order to confirm and make legal and valid this Order in Council that the Postmaster General has told us is not binding as yet, and cannot be binding until such time as it is published in the official ' Gazette.' I do not wish to weary the House, but I wish to refer to one or two other points in connection with this matter, which seems to me a very important one so far as the miners of this country are concerned. And it is worth noting that, while we have labour representatives in this House, I do not know that they will get up to advocate the cause of the labouring men in the country if it interferes with a concession granted by the government. We have a statement made by the Postmaster General that the deputation waited upon the government last year, but that they never asked for the abolition of this concession, but only for certain changes to be made in it. I have here the report of these gentlemen on their return to the Yukon. Let us see what they said :
Gentlemen, as there seems in some quarters to be a desire for a report as to the results of our mission with regard to the Treadgold concession, I wish to lay before the committee a synopsis of our doings at Ottawa.
According to instructions, we met and conferred with the Hon. Jas. H. Ross on our arrival, and found him disposed to assist us in every way possible.
An interview was arranged with the premier and the hon. Minister of the Interior, at which were present Hen. James H. Ross, Ralph Smith, Arthur Wilson, and myself. The matter was
laid before the premier and Mr. Sifton in its entirety, and the total abolition of the concession was demanded.
It is not for me to say who was right or who was wrong. But when the Minister of Labour gets up in this House and says that this deputation never asked for the abolition of the Treadgold concession, it is only right that I should refer to the report of these gentlemen when they returned to the Yukon. Now, what did they find out '!

We found out that the concession had been already granted and that the only method by which we could secure redress was by working with the government, which showed every disposition to rectify the mistakes which had been made.
But, Sir, what did the government do ? They rescinded the Order in Council, rescinded it in toto, and then issued another order which gave to these people greater concessions than they had in the first order. We find, subsequent to the time when this deputation arrived in the city, and subsequent to the interview with the Prime Minister and the Minister of the Interior, the order was passed rescinding the Order in Council of the 12th June, and subsequent order. It says :
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, Approved by His Excellency April 21, 1902.
On a memorandum, dated April 17, 1902, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that he has been in consultation with the Hon. James H. Ross, Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, with regard to certain objections which have been raised to the Orders in Council of June 12, 1902, June 29, 1901, and December 7, 1901, granting Messrs. Malcolm H. Orr-Ewing, of Malvern, England; A. N. C. Treadgold, of London, England, and Walter Barwick, of Toronto, Ontario, certain rights, powers and privileges, as set out in the above-mentioned Orders in Council, and such objections have also been the subject of consultations with the grantees.
The minister recommends as the result of the said consultations, with the assent of the said grantees, that the Orders in Council cited above, be rescinded.
Now, Mr. Speaker, these Orders in Council were rescinded. If the government had made mistakes in regard to these Orders in Council they had the consent of the grantees to rescind them, and they were rescinded on the 17th April. At that time the government was possessed of the knowledge that the people of the Yukon were utterly and totally opposed to these concessions. Yet, three days afterwards, on the 20th April, they grant to these very same people concessions which gave to them greater rights than they previously had. I shall take that subject up a little later on, and shall show that by the last concessions granted to these people they had greater rights than under the previous concession. Now, let me refer also, while I am on the subject, to the statement made by the Minister of the Interior with regard to this de-

putation. In ' Hansard ' of last year, 1902, volume 2, pages 4951 and 4952, you will find a discussion that tools place last session in regard to this deputation. The hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) asked the Minister of the Interior the following :
I would like to know whether the concession * in its amended torm has met with any opposition in the Yukon at the present time.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I do not think so. Mr. Ross informed me that the delegates who had been sent from Dawson had seen the amended Order in Council and agreed that it would be perfectly satisfactory.


Robert Laird Borden: With regard to the abandoned claims, the information I have would show that in many cases those claims afterwards proved to be very valuable. Another objection that was brought to my attention was that a scheme of this kind was not required in the Yukon at the present time, because it could not be properly carried out until the lower levels had been more thoroughly worked. As I understand it, the operations of a scheme of this kind would prevent the working of the lower levels. Am I correct in that ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: There is one other circumstance I would like to mention. There was a memorial of some kind presented to the minister by a number of miners. I saw a copy of that printed in the public press. I would like to know whether the amended Order in Council meets the objections either wholly or partially which were made by the miners in this memorial ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: To all intents and purposes, I think I can say that it does. I went over the memorial with the delegates, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Sugrue. Mr. Wilson was one of the elected members of the Yukon council and Mr. Sugrue was a newspaper man. I went over the memorial with them, and they agreed that the Order in Council in its amended form substantially met their objections. Possibly some of the abandoned claims may turn out to be very valuable.
Now, Sir, floes that agree with the report of the delegates upon their return to the Yukon ? In their report they state an entirely different set of affairs. They say :
We found that the concession had already been granted and that the only method by which we could secure redress was by working with the government.
Now, Sir, it has been stated here by the Minister of Labour that the hon. member for the Yukon was returned to this House as a government supporter. No doubt lie was returned as a government supporter. But I want to remark that he was pledged from the start to the finish of his campaign to oppose this Treadgold concession. I have read you the platform of the Liberal party, I have read you his endorsation and his acceptance of that platform. Let me also read you the statements made by Mr. Cong-don on Mr. Ross's behalf during the campaign. Mr. Oongdon was an active supporter of the Hon. James Ross, now the Governor, and in his speech at South Dawson during the campaign, on October 14, 1902, he said : Mr. PRINGLE.
The government had entered into a contract with Treadgold and only the parliament of Canada could abrogate that agreement. Mr. Ross had asked for the cancellation of the Treadgold concession, but the government found itself tied in such a manner that it could only secure a modification of the grant.
Now, Sir, that shows that Mr. Ross was advocating the cancellation of that concession. Then there was another statement made by Mr. Oongdon, but as that was referred to by my hon. friend from Montmorency, I will not now refer to it. I say that throughout that territory there has been a constant agitation against that concession, an agitation by all parties irrespective of politics. Let me refer you to one or two resolutions that were passed at a mass meeting of citizens held April 2, 1902. There were statements made there which I think would be unfair probably to make in this House. Men standing high in the politics of this country were connected with some of these concessions in statements made at that meeting. I think, Sir, it would be entirely unfair for me to repeat those statements, as I have no proof and nothing to show that these men were in any way connected with these concessions. This is a report of the meeting at which certain statements were made by Mr. Woodworth and other gentlemen. I will simply read the resolutions, and not the statements which were made by these men. The resolutions passed at this meeting held in Dawson are reported in the press of April 22, 1902. The first resolution is this :
We request the government of the Dominion of Canada to immediately inquire into the means by which the Anderson, Milne, Boyle, Bronson and Ray, Doyle Matson, Slavin and Gates and Miller creek concessions were obtained, as to whether said concessions were obtained by fraud and misrepresentation and granted in error and improvidence, and as to whether the regulations have been complied with in the grant or continuance of said leases.
Whereas, the Anderson, Milne, Boyle, Bronson and Ray, Matson, Doyle, Slavin and Gates and Miller creek concessions comprise much of the richest known placer mining ground in the Yukon Territory and ought never to have been leased to the pretended lessees.
Therefore, resolved, that all ground within the limits of said concessions be open to location by the placer miner whether held by concession or not.
Whereas, by express agreement of the holders of the Matson and Doyle concessions are entitled to the mining claims forfeited within the bounds of their concessions, providing they file a plan and apply for the same within one year from date of lapse of said claims, and whereas, under express or implied agreement the Slavin and Gates, Bronson and Ray, Boyle, Milne and Miller creek concessions in a similar manner are claims lapsing within their boundaries, and whereas all said concessions were obtained by fraud and misrepresentation and comprise within their boundaries some of the richest placer mining ground in the Yukon Territory, therefore resolved, that the government of the Dominion of Canada be requested to take steps to prevent said lapsed ground becoming a part of said concessions.
28G1

The leases and agreements by which the Anderson, Milne, Boyle Bronson and Ray, Doyle, Matson, Slavin and Gates and Miller creek concessions be cancelled and revoked upon such terms as may be just.
Now, Sir, I wil-l deal for a few moments with the Order in Council granted on the 21st of April, 1002. The Minister of Labour has gone over these concessions clause by clause, and he has endeavoured to point out to this House that the concessionaires did not obtain so much by the final Orders in Council as they obtained by the previous orders. I cannot agree with him in that contention. Now, Sir, in clause 1 of the Order in Council, 21st April, 1902, the first paragraph of that Order in Council is identically the same as the first paragraph of the Orders in Council previously granted, and which had been rescinded. Under that first paragraph these parties are given-	[DOT]
The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points between its entry into the Yukon river and Flat creek for the purpose of generating power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the district (hereinafter termed ' The District ' ) comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, of Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, and of their tributaries.
Now, X say that they are given the sole and absolute right and by the section that follows they are given six years to exercise that right. They tie up for a period of six years the development of the water power in that locality. Mr. Speaker, I take the ground that if any man went in and attempted to develop the power in that district these gentlemen could at once apply for an injunction and restrain him from doing any work in that connection. It has been my pleasure to read several of the best works in regard to placer mining in the State of California. I recognize that in a new country such as the Yukon there are difficulties in the way of government, in the way of making orders and regulations incidental to meeting the requirements of the people, but I venture to say, Sir, that you cannot find in the history of any mining country where a concession was given such as tlie Treadgold concession. I find in the history of California- that in the placer mining districts of that state, during the boom in placer mining, there were 6,000 miles of sluices built. There was no monopoly given to any one company, and there was no concession such as this tying up the whole country. Companies were formed and there was competition between these companies and that competition gave to the miners a reasonable rate for the water which they required. There was no such concession as this monopoly which has been granted in favour of the concessionaires. Now, the hon. Minister of Labour also referred to a little change that was made in regard to section 3., He says that :
The right to divert and use the water of Rock creek subject to any grants lawfully subsisting and subject to the rights of free miners' bona fide working claims.
And so on is a change. I would like to just point out to the hon. Minister of Labour in regard to the water of Rock creek that there are no claims worked on Rock creek so that the reservation in this case amounts to nothing. Rock creek was a source of water for distribution to the Klondike river. There are a number of clauses in this Order in Council and it would take me a very long time to point out all the iniquities of them. The hon. minister has pointed to section 10 of this Order in Council. I do not know, why he did. It is a most sweeping clause. Clause 10 reads as follows :
The right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output to make entry for and work any abandoned mining claim or claims on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks.
Up to that point it is absolutely the same as the previous Order in Council, but this language has been added :
Such right to be exercisable only when the grantees by the construction of works in pursuance of this franchise are in a position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working therof.
I fail to find in this final Order in Council where the grantees are bound to do anything. They are not bound to expend one dollar, while, in the former Order in Council, they are bound to expend $250,000. By' this Order in Council, I repeat, they are not bound to expend one dollar.
Now, I am not going to take up the legal aspect of the case, because there are those who will follow me who will deal more particularly with that subject. My mind is in a very hazy condition in regard to the legal aspect of the case as construed by the hon. Minister of Labour. He tells us in one breath that this Order in Council is no good, that it does not become any good until such time as it is officially published in the 1 Canada Gazette.' In another breath he tells us that the Order is good. From my reading of the statutes I am satisfied that the Order is not good. We have to speak of the Order in Council just as we find it, and we find that in the preamble of the Order in Council these hon. gentlemen quote as their authority for the passing of that order certain statutes being section 5, Chap. 15, of the Act 55-56 Vic., and section 8 of the Yukon Territory Act as that section was enacted by section 2 of chapter 11 of 62-63 Vic. Let us look at 62-63 Vic. for one moment:
Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Governor in Council may make ordinances for the peace, order and good government of the territory, and of Her Majesty's subjects and others therein ; but no ordinance made by the Governor in Council, or the commissioner in council, shall-

(o.) appropriate any public land or other property of Canada without authority of parliament, or impose any duty of customs or any excise ; nor shall any tax be imposed except as in this Act provided.
in so making the said grants and concessions by Order in Council, the government have exceeded their authority and have committed a gross breach of the duty entrusted to them under the constitution.
I say that this statute is the authority against the contention of the hon. minister, and that they have no authority to give away or to grant the public domain of this country without coming to the parliament of Canada. Now, I must apologize for taking up so much time, but I feel that while these men are far distant from us, some members of this House have to advocate their cause. There is no doubt a great grievance existing in that country. There is no doubt that concessions have been granted since 1S98, which have been to the detriment of the miners of that country. There is no doubt that this concession which we are now discussing is a concession which will destroy that country, which will have the effect of injuring not only the trade of that country but of injuring the trade of Canada, and I say that my only excuse for taking up some much time is that I felt that it was a pleasure to advocate the cause of the miners of the Yukon.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: Mr. Speaker, there are two or three phases of this question that I would like to offer a remark or two upon, and which have beeu mentioned by my hon. friend who has just spoken. There is no member of this House, I may say, if the hon. member will permit me, for whom I have a greater respect, or of whose courtesy and ordinary fairness I have a higher opinion than I have for that of the hon. gentleman. I must confess that he presented to me, as I think my hon. friend presented to the House,__ a striking example of how prejudiced and unreasonable a frame of mind an hon. member of this House can get into when he honestly and sincerely thinks that he is as fair and impartial as a man can be. The hon. gentleman has approached this question, as he assured us, in a spirit of the utmost fairness; yet, I think the first adjective that he applied to the transaction was that it was a transaction of a most iniquitous character. IIow calm and hdw impartial my hon. friend must be, when, in discussing a plain, and it seems to me a very reasonably clear business transaction, he has no more moderate or reasonable a criticism to pass upon it than to declare that it is an iniquitous transaction. Now, Sir, my hon. friend (Mr. Cas-grain) asked this House to express its opinion with regard to this transaction. And what are the terms of his amendment ? It says :
That this House is of opinion that the said powers, franchises and concessions constitute in favour of the said Treadgold a gigantic monopoly, which while depriving the treasury of enormous revenues is most detrimental to the mining industries of the Yukon. And that Mr. PRINGLE.
I presume that my hon. friends opposite, will at least admit that they are under some obligation to furnish to this House evidence to justify it in expressing the opinion set out in the motion. I shall take the liberty of examining somewhat closely the terms of the resolution, to ascertain if I can, what evidence has been furnished- dignify it if you will by the name of evidence-to justify the House in putting itself upon record in such a form. Is it because there is a monopoly in the terms of the Order in Council, that my hon. friend has objection to it ? Is it the monopolistic character of this grant that he makes the most complaint of ? Well, I am at a loss to understand how it would be possible, under the conditions which must exist in the Yukon, to have a privilege of this kind exercised except it would be in a monopolistic form. To go back to the original conditions that existed in the Yukon ; we know that for two or three years after the placer mining qualities of the territory were discovered the richest yield in these placer diggings was capable of being taken out with ease, and a trifling outlay then brought large financial results. As the years went on, the conditions changed and year after year it becomes less possible to take out placer gold except by the exercise of greater labour and the introduction of machinery. Unless you can resort'to mechanical appliances ; unless you can get the hydraulic system in operation in that country, you cannot under present conditions turn to profitable account the admittedly large deposits of placer gold which are to be obtained in that territory. You have got to have mechanical means to assist you, and these mechanical appliances have been found necessary in other countries where placer gold digging has been followed with any success. It is therefore conceded that in order to work these placer diggings expensive hydraulic machinery must be employed. Now, Sir, it goes without saying that such appliances can only be obtained by a very large outlay of money, and by persons or companies having considerable capital at their command. In the very nature of things it requires a monopoly to carry on such work. The hon. gentleman told us that in certain placer districts of the United States it had been possible to allow two or three companies to operate on one of these rivers. How are you going to put in these creeks in the Klondike three or four different systems, with three or four different mechanical plants, to compete one with another. In the first place it is necessary to have the head water dammed and there cannot be four different dams across one river at the same point. To accumulate the water so that it may be

obtained to sluice down the river, it cannot be done by more than one concern. Unless I totally misapprehend the conditions which exist there can only be one company in operation and if that be the case then that company must of necessity have a monopoly. I do not believe therefore that this House will be justified in condemning that transaction because it is a monopoly, when in the very nature of things, if you require that this hydraulic process should be employed to maintain that industrial enterprise in this country, it has to be done in form of monopoly, and cannot be done in any other form. Therefore, to condemn the monopoly, in the words of this resolution is to condemn a thing that is imperatively necessary, unless you are to abandon this country altogether and allow these deposits to go unproductive. My hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) goes on to say in his motion :
While depriving the treasury of enormous revenue.
What evidence is there that under the operation of this system-which as I have said is a necessary and proper system- what evidence is there that it is going to deprive the country of an enormous amount of revenue. Every dollar's worth of gold that is taken out by this process is taken out subject to the royalties which are imposed upon the production of gold taken out in any other part of that district. There is no difference between the royalty upon this and the royalty upon any other gold.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: What about representation ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I can very well understand that there are reasons, very strong and proper reasons, why, in order to induce men of capital to put in $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 and perhaps more to construct this machinery, there would have to be very attractive and valuable inducements held out to them, and concessions would have to be made in the way of the removal of restrictions which would generally be applicable, and might very properly be applicable in the earlier history of the country when placer mining was conducted under very different circumstances. You must bear .in mind, Mr. Speaker, that in adopting this system the government had the idea in mind of insuring the continuance of the development of that country, so that all the placer mining should be made as profitable as possible. In order that that should be done a large expenditure must necessarily be made, and in order that the money for this expenditure could be obtained you had to offer to capitalists an attractive proposition. We happen to know that when the question of the hydraulic development of that section of the country was first mooted a number of people visited Ottawa from the United States and elsewhere. When some people heard that we were going to impose conditions upon this system of mining they turned away their faces and went away from the country, because they said : The conditions that you are talking about imposing are such that it would not be profitable for us to embark in this enterprise and to risk a large amount of money contingent upon the possibility that the country might not prove as rich in its gold-bearing properties as was represented. There were persons who came to Ottawa at that time, and who, as I am credibly informed, were satisfied that they could not embark in the enterprise under any condition which the government would entertain favourably. Now, my hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) does not appear to consider that you ought to present an attractive programme to people whom you invite to go into operations of this character. The hon, gentleman thinks that every body should see at a glance that it was certain to be an enormously profitable undertaking.
My hon. friend from Cornwall and Stormont (Mr. Pringle) said that the amount of money the Treadgold syndicate would make was simply fabulous. He figured out that they would make ten million dollars a year profit. Well, if any one who had command of the means would believe that my hon. friend's statement was to be relied on, he and everybody who had the same belief would be tumbling over one another in order to secure this concession on any terms, and would not care how drastic or severe they might be. The negotiations were not conducted by the Minister of the Interior alone. It is only fair and just to him to say that all through this transaction he was acting in conference with his colleagues and with a sub-committee of Council. Realizing that we were dealing with new problems to us, we were doing the best we could to reach a conclusion and to arrange a bargain which would be advantageous to the country and just to all concerned. Reflections are being cast on the Minister of the Interior, anc>
this is spoken of by hon. gentlemen opposite as a fraudulent transaction, as a transaction which is based on fraud. What is the evidence to justify any such statement as that? The present Judge Davies, of the Supreme Court, I am reminded, was one of the committee, and was aiding and assisting us in these negotiations.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: What does that prove ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: My hon. friend from Cornwall and Stormont refers to the fact that the formal application made by the Messrs. Treadgold was received one day and was immediately and instantly accepted and replied to by the government the next day ; the idea intended to be conveyed being that these gentlemen swooped down on the government, gobbled them up, and carried away in an instant the contract for these con-

cessions. If my hon. friend liad been here for the months during which these negotiations took place, he would have known very much better. He would have known that the reason the letter came to be dated so short a time before the Order in Council was passed, was because the negotiations which had taken place from day to day, from week to week, and from month to month, were finally concluded, and when they were concluded, the terms that were acceded to by the government were put into the form of that application.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him how much deliberation was expended on the question of allowing them to charge a dollar an inch for the water ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: A very great deal. I confess that the question was absolutely new ; and, as regards a reasonable price, we had to confer with others ; but upon the best opinion we could get, the amount was put in, because it was believed it was a fair price. We found afterwards that we were entirely mistaken ; I frankly acknowledge that ; as people are likely to be mistaken when dealing with entirely new matters, as to a new country, far away from the scene where the decisions are arrived at and where the administrative acts take place.
Now, our lion, friends have no evidence to prove that this arrangement, in addition to being a monopoly, is going to deprive the treasury of enormous revenues. If it is a successful adventure, that is to say, if these people are able to raise the necessary money to carry out the undertaking, it may prove to be a very great money saver to the country ; and the country may secure the development of that section of the Yukon, which might not, under any other conditions, be susceptible of development. It may in that way bring enormous revenues to' the country which we would not otherwise have. But'there is no testimony that it might involve a loss to the treasury of any large sum.
Our lion, friends ask the House to say that this arrangement would be most detrimental to the mining industry of the Yukon. What evidence have they adduced in support of this proposition ? How is the mining industry of the Yukon going to be harmed if we succeed in having this great hydraulic system in operation in that country ? Where does the power reside to say what is the proper compensation to be paid to these people for the privileges which they are able to lease or sell to the owners or licensees of mines in that district ? Does not the Governor in Council hold in his hand all the necessary power to prevent any wrong being done to the miners ? What do the licensees throughout the district want ? They want water. And what may they properly give J for it ? What is a fair price for it ? My Hon. Mr. BLAIR.
lion, friend says they are going to be asked 25 cents per miners' inch, and that it is going to cost $300 a day to every one who lias a sluice. Well, does anybody imagine for a _ moment that the government would permit, having power to prevent it, the continuance of a system which would compel the miners to pay an exorbitant sum away beyond what would yield a fair return of profit to these people on their undertaking ? Nobody believes that the government could for a moment tolerate the continuance of such a condition of things.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Will my hon. friend permit a question ? I would like to know where there is any specification whatever in the Order in Council as to what price the miners are to pay for the water.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I will show my hon. friend where it is. We have named no price in the order for the use of water. It does not at all follow that it was necessary to name any price. On the contrary, we think it is quite unnecessary to name it. If the miners are called on to pay for the use of the water which is brought down to them or let out to them, and which they are using upon their locations, then the amount they shall be compelled to pay would be under the control and direction of the Governor in Council, and I will show my hon. friend where that is to be found.


John Graham Haggart: Where is that ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If I succeed, Mr. Speaker, in pointing out to this House that the power is reserved, in sufficiently clear and explicit terms, in this Order in Council or grant to protect the people from being imposed upon by excessive rates, where in all conscience are you to find any injury that is being done to the mining interests in that country ? What the mining men want is to have the government spend out there, some $5,000,000 or $10,000,000 in order to construct hydraulic works. They know that they cannot perpetuate the Yukon as a gold bearing country unless works of this kind are established, and they want the government to construct them out of the exchequer of the country, because they think, no doubt, that they would then enjoy greater advantages than if these works were done by a company. That is why we are hearing complaints to-day. My hon. friend asks me to point out where there is anything in this Order in Council showing control by the government of the rates for the use of the water.


John Graham Haggart: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Section nine reads :
That these grantees shall have the right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to use, distribute and dispose of the water delivered by the grantees within the district.

2S70


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Where are the regulations ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The hon. gentleman has a copy of this. I refer to regulation C.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: I would ask the hon. gentleman to read A and B first ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I am happy to oblige my hon. friend :-
(a)	The grantees shall allow all free miners within the district to tail their sluices, hydraulics, ground shiices and drains, free of charge into the flumes and drains of the grantees, yet not in such a way as to damage or obstruct the free working of the flumes and drains of the grantees by rocks, stones, boulders or otherwise.
That throws no light on that branch of the question.
(b)	The grantees shall compensate the owner of any mining claims or lands for any damage which any such owner may sustain by reason of any of the grantees works breaking or being imperfect.
That does not bear on the question.
(c)	Any question of compensation arising under this grant.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: My hon. friend, of course, with his astute legal mind, would make out that the compensation must have relation simply to the compensation implied or referred to in the preceding regulation ' B.'


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Certainly.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If that were the intention, instead of saying ' any question of compensation arising under this grant ' the words used would be ' any question of compensation arising under these regulations.' My hon. friend laughs.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Yes.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: My hon. friend cannot dispose of a legal argument simply by a laugh.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: Will the hon. gentleman allow me to put him a question ? How is it that in the first Order in Council, when' anything is said about what is to be paid for the water, it is not the word ' compensation ' which is used but the word ' charge.' In the regulations, which accompany the first Order in Council, is the following clause
The charge which the grantee shall be entitled to make for the use of such water on each claim shall not exceed ?1 per miners' inch per hour.
How is it that the word * charge ' lias been changed to that word ' compensation,' when in the clause immediately preceding, the regulations speak of compensation for damages to the owner of any mining claim.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I say, as I read and interpret this clause, that if there were to be a limitation, such as the hon. gentleman puts upon the general language of sub-clause C of the regulations, that sub-clause would refer specially to the previous regulation B, and thus be clearly restricted to it. Subclause says :	' Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined '-by 'whom-by the Gold Commissioner subject to appeal to the Territorial Court of the district, and the said court may, upon special circumstances being shown, make an order for the taking of further evidence.' Take these two clauses together, and they seem to remove the question beyond doubt-clause nine :-
The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to use, distribute and dispose of the water delivered by the grantees within the district.
And sub-clause C of the regulations which I have just read. That being the interpretation of clause C, there does not seem to be any solid basis upon which the miners in the Yukon can say that their individual interests are likely to be prejudiced by this grant or that the general mining interests in the country are in the slightest degree prejudicially affected. There is no foundation for this argument, nor is there anything in the Order in Council itself which in any way militates against the most complete right of any miner in the country, once these works are completed, making application for and obtaining a license to mine in that country anywhere so long as the privilege he asks for has not already been taken by another. Only when these works are actually completed does it become a right in the grantees to claim that wherever there are any licenses or any ground abandoned, because the parties did not think it worth while, although water was available, to hold and continue the work alone, they are entitled to take this abandoned ground. It does seem to me there can be very little justification for criticism of any kind upon an Order in Council, restricted and surrounded by such safeguards as these regulations, and it affords almost conclusive evidence of the inability of our hon. friends opposite to take any reasonable view of any transaction by their political opponents, when they denounce, as they are doing, so well considered and well prepared a proposition. The concluding portion of the resolution says
And that in so making the said grants and concessions by Order in Council, the government have exceeded their authority and committed a gross breach of thq^duty entrusted to them under the constitution.
I think my hon. friend rather failed to make clear the proposition that there lias been any act on the part of the gover-ment in this transaction which is at all in

excess of the powers properly belonging to it. It is quite true that this Yukon country belongs to the Crown. It is quite true that it is not in the power of the Governor in Council or any minister of the Crown to dispose of or sell, any property of the Crown except and until there has been a statutory enactment conferring that authority. No man would argue for a moment that, because a Minister of the Interior has become minister, he is invested with powers, by reason of that, which are not derivable and are not founded upon some Act of parliament. But there is such an Act of parliament going the full length and justifying all that has been done in connection with this grant and all the powers to which have been, on the face of it exercised by the government. Section 47 of the Dominion Lands Act has been referred to. That section has not only been reenacted and affirmed, but has been somewhat enlarged by subsequent legislation. This is to be found in the revised statute of 188(5, chapter 54. Section 47 declares :
Lands containing coal or other minerals, whether in surveyed or unsurveyed territory, shall not be subject to the provisions of this Act respecting sale or homestead entries, but shall be disposed of in such manner and on such terms and conditions as are, from time to time, fixed by the Governor in Council, by regulation made in that behalf.
Now, if any wider language is necessary than that


Thomas Chase Casgrain: That has been repealed.


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It lias been repealed and another section lias been substituted, and I say that section is even more explicit and clear. For, if you will turn to that Act, Chapter 15, of 55-56 Victoria, yon will see th'e enactment is as follows :
Clause 47 of the said Act is hereby repealed and the following substituted therefor : -
Lands containing coal of other minerals, including lands in the Rocky Mountains Park


John Graham Haggart: Is this a regulation for the sale ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There are general regulations which authorize the sale.


John Graham Haggart: Where are they ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There are general regulations. My hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) has them and he will refer to them if occasion arises. If there were no other regulations, this would be a regulation as respects this transaction as fully and completely as it would be necessary to have one made. But I do not make the argument that it is necessary to regard this as a regulation, though I could very well do so. I would be correct in doing so. Regulations have, however, been made and have been promulgated, and under the regulations that have been piromul-gated all that has been done under the Order in Council was in the fullest degree authorized. So, my hon. friend has not taken substantial ground. He is following a delusion; he is deceiving himself, when he supposes that an Act of parliament which says that the Governor in Council has power to sell or lease these lands in any such manner and under such regulations as he clioses, is not sufficient to cover this case. I think there can be no ground for the belief that a constitutional doubt arises as to w'lmt has been done. Yet my hon. friend will subscribe to this resolution which says that the government has exceeded its powers. We are the government and they are the opposition, and it is not necessary to use any argument to convince them that we never do anything right, while they are unimpeachable, their opinion is the standard of correctness and propriety, and so they can vote for this resolution without the slightest hesitation or reluctance. I intended to refer earlier to the statement of the hon. member for Cornwall and Stormont (Mr. Pringle), when he took occasion to drag in the question of the Mackenzie & Mann contract and to say that this is a similar contract and one in which the government has been guilty of improvidently and unreasonably committing itself to a bargain such as never should have been sanctioned or approved. He may well remember in that connection the fabulous calculations that were made as to the untold millions that were going to be made out of the Mackenzie & Mann contract if it became law. I remember hon. gentlemen opposite, one after another, rising in their places, with eyes glittering at the prospect pointing out the hundreds of millions of dollars, and the hundreds of thousands of acres of land wiiich were being given away, lands which were simply a land of gold-all you had to do was to go out and dig it up. Why, it was so vast in extent, so enormous in its richness that we were simply throwing away wealth that would have made the whole country rich, and probably would


Hon. Mr. BLAIR.: have sufficed without the imposition of other taxes to maintain the government institutions of the country for a century. And, notwithstanding all this, and though these lands have lain there open to any man who clioses to make application for them, teem-iug as they told us with this incalculable and inexhaustible wealth, yet not a single individual has been found who has discovered enough to make it worth his while to apply for a square mile or for even a hundred square feet of that whole territory for mining purposes-not a single solitary one. I recall to my hon. friends, therefore, the wild folly of their statements when this subject was under discussion, and I ask them to beware that they are not putting themselves in that same untenable and indefensible position that they put themselves in when they opposed the proposition that we then laid before them. They talk about the enormous amount of money to be made out of this Treadgold venture. They are talking in the same strain as before. They are asking parliament to forget that there is a public opinion in the country which would not tolerate the imposition by this syndicate of any more than reasonable, just and proper rates. They ask parliament to forget that these people would always exercise the privilege given under their charter in the full light of day. and under the full control of the government of the country.


Mr. E. GUSS PORTER (West Hastings).: Mr. Speaker, I was prepared, when the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair) stood up to discuss this question and, when I heard him find fault with the remarks that have been made by hon. gentlemen on this side who preceded him, to hear this question discussed without any exhibition of prejudice or feeling. But if the hon. member who preceded the Minister of Railways and Canals in discussing this question to-night, showed any spirit of prejudice, I venture the assertion that he has been entirely outdone by the Minister of Railways and Canals himself. Looking at this question from a general standpoint, it appears to me that the same rule applies to this Act as should be applied to other legislation or legislative acts. The general principle should be that any legislation or legislative Acts which tend or pretend to confer upon any individual, or any corporation or body of people, rights that are different from the rights that are enjoyed by the public in general, should be such as will bear the very closest scrutiny by the opposition and by the country. But I do not think, in viewing the Orders in Council that have been under discussion here to-day that they come within that category, for they strike me as being in direct violation of that very wholesome principle. That Order in Council bears upon its face its own condemnation. It is perfectly apparent from the terms of that Order in Council and the offer that was
made by Mr. Treadgold and his associates, that the Treadgold company did not forget, when they were presenting their memorial to the government, to ask for almost everything that was in sight. And, Sir, notwithstanding the greed, if I may use the term, displayed by the Treadgold Company in asking for these concessions, it appeared that the government was perfectly willing to go them one better. They have signified their willingness to go them one better in the language that they used in the Orders in Council. After reciting the offer that haA been made by these people, the government say
And that the said parties shall be and are hereby granted all and every the powers, privileges, rights and franchises asked for.
Well, Sir, it is wonderful to my mind that the Treadgold Company did not ask for a fence around it, and if they had, I do not doubt the government would have given them a fence, and also given them a gatekeeper, judging from the way they have treated this company. Now, it has been said, and said correctly, that while the government were so generous in granting to the Treadgold Company these rights and privileges, they were yet careful enough only to grant these rights subject to certain conditions. Well, one is apt to understand the use of that term ' condition ' as implying that some onus or some duty is placed upon the person against whom that condition is established, or that some duty is cast upon that person in regard to the granting of the right. But I call the attention of the House for a moment to one or two of these conditions, and the manner in which the Treadgold Company were tied up by the government's action. I would point out that the government said to these people when they came and asked for these rights, yes, take all you want, all you ask for you may have; but you must take those rights subject to these conditions. The first of these conditions is, yes, take all you want but you must not pay any taxes upon it. That is the first condition, certainly a very onerous one, and the Treadgold people must have struggled and argued strenuously with the government to prevent them from imposing such an onerous condition as that. But perhaps they thought that was the only condition of an onerous nature that would be imposed upon them, and so no doubt they waited for the next clause of this Order in Council. The next clause goes them one better, and says :	Yes, you may have all
these rights that you are asking for in this memorial you have presented to the government, and in addition to your not paying any taxes, we go you one better and we say that you should not pay any rent, nor should you pay any occupation rent. No doubt the Treadgold people felt themselves very greatly aggrieved by that condition, but that is the language of the condition that

is imposed upon them. Let me point out something more. After granting to these people all they asked, and saying they should pay no taxes, no rent, and no occupation rent, that they should only pay the royalty upon the output equal to the very lowest royalty that was imposed upon gold and silver, then they added another clause as if to make the matter doubly binding and doubly pleasing to the Treadgold people, for they say : Yes, and even if you don't work the mine, we will put the further condition upon you that you won't have to pay the $200 to the government. Why, Sir, you may go through the whole list of these conditions and with very few exceptions they are of the nature X have described.
Now one word with regard to some of these matters where I think it is perfectly apparent to any careful reader that the government have wrought an injustice and injury to the free miners of the Yukon territory. You will notice that in the regulations of council which have been referred to here to-night, in the first clause, subsection one, which has been read more than once, it says
Provided that license holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike river should be entitled,
And so on, as against the grantee. Now what does that mean ? Could language make more plain the meaning and intention of the concessionaires and of the government ? It says : License holders who may hereafter procure licenses, but it confines the benefits which are there pretended to be granted, to these miners who are already holding licenses, and it does not extend to any future miner who may go in there in opposition to this corporation. It seems to me to be an extraordinary block to free miners going into that country. Yet the Minister of Xiailways and Canals will ask this House and gentlemen who have discussed this question,, where or in what way is this going to effect prejudicially the miners of the Yukon Territory ? Sir, is it not perfectly plain that such a clause as that in these regulations, absolutely shuts out future competition over a large portion of that country to free miners ? But that clause has a still more sweeping effect, taken in connection with the other clause of this regulation which provides that upon a claim being abandoned these people may enter upon that claim and work it. Now take that clause in connection with the regulation in regard to the supply of water. If there is a shortage of water, if there is not water enough to work all these mines efficiently, then the water is to be divided proportionately between them. Yet, I say, taking these two Orders in Council and taking these regulations I have referred to, the result will be almost inevitable, it seems to me, it is impossible to work it out in any other way, Mr. PORTER.
that these miners who are already in there and who alone are protected by that first subsection, will, a large portion of them, be shut out by the operation of this Order in Council. That is another way in which, I say, it appears clear to me that the Order in Council is going to work prejudicially to the interests of that country. Now, I want to call attention to just one other clause in regard to this matter and that is to clause thirteen. I shall not take occasion to refer to those clauses which have been spoken of particularly, but this feature of section thirteen has not, I think, been mentioned in this discussion. Section thirteen provides that
The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to construct, lay, maintain, supply with water and operate bed-rock flumes, and any other flumes for supplying water in the district.
What does that really mean ? It means that Mr. Treadgold and his associates are granted this right and this exclusive right for the purpose of prospecting that country. When they build their bed-rock flumes in these rivers and creeks they cannot do It without discovering where the best mining locations are all along that line, and when they discover a mining lc cation this Order in Council provides that they have the right to grab it up the same as they grab all the others. That in itself is sufficient to condemn that Order in Council aud to show conclusively that the concessions that are granted, as far as the interests of that great country are concerned, were disadvantageous to the Yukon Territory and to the miners there. The hon. Minister of Railways and Canals took occasion to ask opposition members who are discussing this question to furnish some evidence that the concessions granted to these people, were operating, or were going to operate disadvantageously to the people of that country. 1 am surprised that the hon. minister should ask such a question in the face of such an array of testimony as has been offered from this side of the House during the discussion. When he asks that question he actually discredits his own party, and he actually discredits the best people in the Yukon Territory. In addition to what has been already quoted in regard to the action of the Liberal party, of the Liberal chib, of the board of trade and other bodies who, we have a right to assume, are familiar, from their contact with that subject and from their living in the country, with the conditions and needs of the territory, I am going to present to the House an expression of opinion from the citizens of Dawson. I hold in my hand a paper printed in Dawson, which, in its issue of February 20, last, contains the report of a meeting of citizens of Dawsou held for the purpose of discussing the railway policy of the government and amongst other things the Treadgold concession. A number of resolu-

tions were passed by that meeting. These resolutions were to be forwarded to the government and the government were urged to take action upon them. The sixth resolution demanded:	*
The cancellation of all hydraulic concession leases fraudulently obtained, also hydraulic concession leases, the terms of which have not been complied with that are now liable to cancellation.
Seventh. The strict enforcement of the terms of all hydraulic concession leases, so that the holders of same will be obliged to operate and mine the ground held by them.
There is another way in which this Order in Council operates to the disadvantage of the people of that country, as has already been pointed out. It ties it up for six years. Those living upon the spot and being familiar with the subject say : compel these people to operate and mine the ground held by them.
Eighth

And this is a sweeping one

The cancellation in every instance of hydraulic concession leases where the same are in any way liable to cancellation, so that the ground now tied up and lying idle within the boundaries of the same be thrown open to miners and worked.
There was an opportunity offered to this government, *as has already been pointed out, before the passage of the last Order in Council to rescind the first Order in Council and to meet the requirements of the people of the Yukon Territory, thus serving the best interests of these people and the best interests of the mining industry of that country. They did pass an Order in Council rescinding the former Order in Council, but they were not content with satisfying the people of the Yukon but they showed that it was not their interest to serve the people of the Yukon, but that their interest lay in some other direction, and accordingly the last Order in Council was passed. Speaking to the resolution which I have just read Mr. George Black, a citizen of Dawson, made use of this language.
Every man in the territory wishes that the laws should have the approval of the people and meet with the requirements of local conditions. If the mining law in this territory had been made with the approval of the people the country to-day would be in a different condition. But we have the experience of the past four or five years and it is not too late for the people to act	
If our.laws had been made by the elected representatives of the people, we would have no need for this meeting to-night. Concessions would not have been plastered over the country.
I must warn the people against any decrease in vigilance in relation to the Treadgold concession. As it stands to-day the owners of that concession have the sole right to sell water. When the monopoly clause was taken from the Treadgold concession the right of other people to secure water rights was also cancelled. So
in reality Treadgold has still the sole monopoly on- the water rights.
That is the view which people living in tlie Yukon and who are familiar with this subject take of the matter and I think we are pretty safe in acting upon their judgment. I am surprised in the face of evidence of that nature that the lion. Minister of Railways and Canals should stand up in his place in this House and ask for further evidence than that which has been given him to show that this is a monopoly. Now, he takes occasion to remark further that works of this character must be carried on by companies in the nature of a monopoly. I cannot, for my part, agree with the statement. The statement may be right to a certain extent, it may be necessary to induce, in some way, companies, or corporations, or capitalists, to invest their money in enterprises of this kind for the development of the country, but it is only necessary to go as far as the interests of that country demand and it is not necessary, as the government has done, to practically give away the Yukon Territory to a monopoly in order to secure a supply of water. As I understand the attitude taken by the opposition during the discussion of this question they do hot object-I do not, at any rate, for one, object-to one company investing their money in this enterprise for the purpose of benefiting the territory and the mining industry there. I do not care whether there is one company or a dozen companies if the rights of the people are so guarded as against the one company, that the company will not be allowed to gobble up everything there is in the country. It has been truly said and I know from the researches I have made myself in different books, that in California and in Australia you cannot find an instance where a concession such as this, has been granted to any corporation.
While there are companies working there and providing water for carrying on mining operations; while there are such companies innumerable in California and Australia, I have failed to discover any company that has been given such sweeping rights, such exclusive rights, such privileges in defiance of the rights of the people as have been given to this Treadgold Company in the Yukon Territory. The Minister of Railways seems to take a very great deal of satisfaction from the fact, that, as he says, the right t# fix the charge for supplying water to the miners in the Yukon may be regulated by the Gold Commissioner, and therefore that the people may safely conclude that the government would not-to use his own expression-be so foolish as to sanction the making of any charge that would be exorbitant or unreasonable. Why, Sir, the action of the government that he was reviewing at the very time, answered him completely. He said that the government would not be so foolish as to sanction

a charge of say twenty-five cents per miners' inch for this water, but did lie forget that a year or two before this very same government had sanctioned a charge of $1 a miners' inch or four times as great as the twenty-five cents which he thought the government would not be so foolish as to allow being charged. In view of this, what warrant has the Minister of Railways to say to the House or to the country, that the government would not be foolish enough to allow a charge of twenty-five cents. The minister gave us a construction of clauses (B) and (C) in the regulations, and he said that these two clauses must stand separate and apart as they meant separate and distinct things. Well, it is perfectly apparent to any one that such a construction as that can only be placed upon these clauses by torturing the English language. One clause says :
The grantees shall compensate the owners of any mining claim.
The next clause says :	'
Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined, &c.
Why, it is absolutely plain that they cannot be read apart, and if it lacked any further evidence than the mere reading, look at clause (F) of the very same regulation in regard to the charge that is to be made, and see what it says. Does that clause use the word ' compensation 7 ' Not at all. It says that the ' charge ' which the grantee shall make and so on. And if you want any further evidence look at the order made on the 7th of December, following, and see what that says. Clause (S) of the regulations therein contained uses the same language as in clause (F) which I have referred to, and instead of the word ' compensation ' the word ' charge ' is used there again. It seems to be only playing with the matter for the Minister of Railways to submit such a construction to an intelligent House of Commons.
Then the Minister of Railways took occasion to refer to the very great exertions that were put forth by the government, and the long time it had occupied in the discussion of these Orders in Council before action was taken by the governnient. Well, it strikes me as a very singular thing, that if the government did take all the care and trouble that the Minister of Railways would have us believe it did take, to use liis own words, in negotiating and perfecting the matter in this Order in Council; it is a very strange thing I say that when they got it perfected and fully negotiated and satisfactory, that they had not the courage to make it law. Why have they refused; why have they delayed in making it law ? If it is right it should have been made law at the time, and if it is not right it should never become law, and the government have a perfect right now in the interest of the


Edward Guss Porter: country to cancel it. I submit for these reasons, and for the reasons that have been urged by other members on this side of the House, that the government ought to avail of the first opportunity of rescinding this Order in Council. They cannot show their disposition to serve the people of the Yukon better than by voting for the resolution that has been moved by my hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain).


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Daurier).: Mr. Speaker. For my part I have no fault to find with the argument which has been made by my hon. friend from Hastings (Mr. Porter}. May I be permitted to tender him my congratulations upon the fact that his speech has been singularly free from the fraud and fury which has characterized some of the previous utterances of members on that side of the House. But in all that has been said, no one so far as addressed himself to the question as to why the government was induced to pass this Order in Council and to give this concession to Mr. Treadgold and his associates. There must have been reason; there must have been some cause for the government to take the action which they have taken, and which is now challenged by the opposition. For my part I am quite ready to take that responsibility for our action which we owe to tlje House and to the country, and I do not despair that when the whole question has been examined by my hon. friends opposite, that even they will come to a different conclusion than that which has been expressed by them. The reason, and the wherefore, and the cause of this Order in Council, which in its disposition, I admit is somewhat unusual from the course ordinarily followed; the reason and the wherefore of this Order in Council is to be found in the history of the Klondike and in the conditions which now prevail there. The Yukon Territory is a territory embedded in gold, but in which there is a scarcity of water for mining operations. It is an established fact that at the present time there are claims which are worked with great profit, and there are other claims which could be worked with great profit also but for the fact that there is no water to work them. Early in the history of the Yukon the government was appealed to more than once to establish works whereby water could be collected for the purpose of affording facilities to the miners to work their claims. If you look at the several petitions which have been referred to this afternoon; if you look for instance at the petition of the board of trade, you will find that two things are demanded from the government. First of all it is asked that the Treadgold concession should be abolished. And, why ? Simply in order that something else may be substituted for It. That is to say, that as soon as the Treadgold concessions was abolished, the government

should substitute works of its own for the purpose of collecting water and distributing it to the miners of that locality. Here is the petition of the board of trade. The argument contained in it has been cited three or four times and it is not necessary for me to read it again, but the conclusion, so far as my memory serves me, has never been read yet, and here it is :
Your petitioners therefore pray :
(11 That the Order in Council of April 21, 1902, may be cancelled completely, and that no special privileges shall hereafter be granted within this territory with respect to wood, mining, water, or any other class of rights affecting the general public, but that all persons shall be restricted in such matters to the rights conferred upon every member of the community by the mining regulations.
(2) That the supply and distribution of water for general mining purposes within this territory shall not be controlled by any private person or corporation, but either that it shall be undertaken by the Dominion government as a public work, or the power shall be given to the commissioner of the Yukon Territory in council to construct such a system and to raise the necessary funds by bonds guaranteed by the Dominion.
This was the alternative presented to us. There was a consensus of opinion among all the miners of the Yukon that the systems in existence were not adequate to the people's needs, and that something had to be done for collecting water, creating power and distributing water to tlie miners. How was that to be done ? We were asked to do it as a government work, providing the money by the issue of bonds or otherwise. The matter was looked into, and we found that works of that character demanded by the Yukon hoard of trade would cost millions of dollars-more than one million, and, if my information is correct, more than two million.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: More than $5,000,000.


The PRIME MINISTER.: More than $5,000,000 I am told. The government were not prepared to expend such an amount of money for the purpose of creating the necessary power to distribute water ; and I want to know if hon. gentlemen opposite, who have criticised the action of the government in this matter, and who have constituted themselves champions of the miners of the Yukon, would be prepared to support the government in expending $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 in order to provide these works.


Mr. OSLER.: Might I ask the hon. Prime Minister on whose or what report he liases the estimates for $5,000,000 ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I understand that it is upon the report of all the engineers who have tested the question. I am not prepared to say myself, though I am so informed, that these works would cost $5,000.000 ; hut I am prepared to stake all the reputation I have that all the estimates 91*
will agree that they would cost at least $2,000,000 ; and I ask the hon. gentleman if he is prepared to advise the government to spend $2,000,000 in order to provide the works demanded by the miners of the Yukon. Nobody would ask the government to do that; and if it was not to he done by the government, it would have to lie done by private enterprise. Application was made to us. Capitalists came to us declaring that they would be prepared to undertake the risk and make the expenditure. We made a contract with them, if I remember rightly, in the summer of 1901. The contract was published in the Yukon, and exception was taken to it. It was represented among other things that the price we had fixed for the sale of water was too high. We had put it at one dollar. On investigation, I am bound to say, we found that it would he on the average too high. There is no question so difficult to determine as what should he the price of water in that district if such a work were to be undertaken. One dollar an inch in some places would not have been too much ; and in other places it would have been exorbitant We reduced the price to twenty-five cents. We had a delegation of miners from the Yukon. That delegation was alluded to this afternoon by the hon. member for Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) and also by the hon. member for Cornwall and Stormont (Mr. Pringle). We discussed the matter with the miners, and they convinced us that even twenty-five cents per miners' inch would be exorbitant in some instances, and we had to provide another method. We cancelled all the Orders in Council, and passed another. We were criticised for doing so. What were we to do ? Were we to remain idle, while the miners in the Yukon were asking us to give them facilities to work their claims ? Only the richest claims were being worked. There were others that might be worked, but owing to the lack of facilities for water, they were not being worked effectively. Therefore we had to provide other methods. If we had failed to respond to the demands of the Yukon miners, hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House would have been the first to blame us. Whether we act or do not act we are sure to be blamed by hon. gentlemen opposite. We thought that the worst we could do was to remain idle ; and we determined to do our best to meet the views and wishes of the mining population of the Yukon, who wanted facilities to enable them to carry on their operations. Therefore we passed the Order in Council which hon. gentlemen opposite ask the House to censure us for passing. Now, I am prepared to discuss this Order in Council. I am prepared to meet my hon. friends on the other side of the House in regard to the salient points of the attack they have made upon us. What is the first disposition of this order ? It is a very natural



one. It provides that these Treadgold concessionaires shall have the power to erect dams and do all the work necessary in the bed of the Klondike river, between the mouth of the river and Fiat creek, in order to create a generating power for electric purposes. But if we did that we ran the risk perhaps of interfering with the operations of the miners who have concessions in the Klondike river and who might be deprived of their water. If we made no provision against that, we might be subject to censure ; but the first thing we did was to provide that, prior even to the right of the company, the miners on the Klondike river would have a primary right to a flow of water sufficient to carry on their operations. Here is what the order says :
The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river at any point or points between its entry into the Yukon river and Flat creek for the purpose of generating power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the district (hereinafter termed ' the district ') comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and hills of the Klondike river, of Bonanza, Bear and H-unker creeks, and of their tributaries.
Provided, that licensed holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike river shall be entitled as against the grantees to the use free from toll of a flow of water sufficient for working their claims, but not exceeding in all three thousand five hundred (3,500) miners' inches, euual to five thousand two hundred and fifty (5,250) cubic feet per minute.
This Is what Is reserved-the right of every miner to have his claim given priority to that of the company. The miners shall take the water first. No matter what improvements are made by the company, there shall be no interference with the rights of private miners in the Klondike. If it be possible in any way to safeguard the interests of the miner more effectively, I would like to know it. The company having erected its works is given the privilege of selling the power itself to anybody who wants it, and for any purpose whatever. But is the company allowed to sell the power at its own price, or to create such a monopoly as would destroy the operations of other industries ? No, Sir. A check is put upon the company-that same check which we impose in the case of similar concessions-and that is the power given the Governor General in Council to regulate the price. The Order in Council reads as follows :-
Provided that if any power is developed and rendered available by the grantees under this section which they do not make use of, then the same shall be offered for sale to the public and the rates to be charged therefor shall be subject to the control of the Governor General in Council.
This is the method always followed in this country in similar cases. It is the method by which we regulate the tolls on railways and by which we are asked to regulate the tolls of the telephone companies, and it is
S:r vni.FHH1 i.\n:
the best method yet devised in this country for the working of such franchises. Another power is given the company. The first object for which the company was granted its privileges was to collect and to distribute the water so that all these claims-bench claims, for instance-which are not now being worked may be operated. What is the provision on this point ? That provision has been criticised. My hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) has taken the ground that we have not provided any check to prevent the company charging what it likes. I am prepared to discuss that point with my hon. friend. Bet me call his attention to this point. It is a point which has been already made by my hon. colleague the Minister of Railways and Canals. But I want to call the attention of my hon. friend from Montmorency to it again. For I do not despair of my hon. friend. If he will only forget that he is a lawyer and bear in -mind that he may, some time, be a judge and have to exercise a judicial mind and a judicial authority. I do not despair of convincing him that we have made all the provisions! necessary to protect the miners against the greed of the company. Here is what I find in the Order in Council, and what my hon. friend very deliberately and adroitly avoided this afternoon. The right is given-
Subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to use, distribute and dispose of the water delivered by the grantees within the district.
This is very clear. The right is given the company to use, distribute and dispose of, by sale or otherwise, the water delivered by the grantees within the district. Let me now call the attention of my hon. friend to the regulations imposed in this connection. The regulations are not there simply for an ornament. They must be held to have a meaning. What are these regulations ? They are as follows
The grantee shall allow all free miners within the district to tail his sluices, hydraulics, ground sluices and drains, free of charge, in the flumes and drains of the grantees, yet not in such a way as to damage or obstruct the free working of the flumes and drains of the grantees by rocks, stones, boulders or otherwise.
Therefore the moment the company constructs a flume facing a claim, the owner of the claim has the right at once to bring his sluices to the flume and take the water. He has no permission to ask. The company cannot refuse. The right is guaranteed to him, whether the company is willing or not, to take his sluices to the flume and draw the water. My hon. friend will agree that the miner has no permission to ask, and that the moment he has tailed his sluice to the flume the water of the company flows into his sluice, and he is at liberty to use it. What follows ? There must be compensation. If

the miner and the company agree upon a price, there is nothing more to be said, but if they do not, then section O comes in :
Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined judicially by the Gold Commissioner, subject to the appeal of the Territorial Court of the district, and the said court may, on special circumstances being shown, make an order for the taking of further evidence.
I would ask my hon. friend from Montmorency to take the case as it stands. Let him suppose that he is the Gold Commissioner for the Yukon. The company has erected its works. I am a miner and have taken my sluice to the flume, and am using water from the flume to wash out my gold dirt. The company cannot prevent me from using the water. It cannot prevent me from taking my sluice to its flume, but the company says : You will pay me so much. I reply that its price is an exorbitant one. Then we go before Mr. Oasgrain, the Gold Commissioner, and he determines what compensation shall be paid. If that is not clear, there is nothing clear. If that is not law, there is no law.


Thomas Chase Casgrain: If I should give judgment in that sense, my judgment would be unanimously reversed on appeal.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Let me tell my hon. friend that he minimizes his own ability to give a judgment which would be according to law, justice and equity, and to the terms of this agreement.
My hon. friend may point to the abandoned claims. In the first Order in Council-the Order in Council which was passed in June, 1901-we had given to the company the abandoned claims. That seemed to me perfectly fair. If a miner had abandoned his claims, it was perfectly fair to give the company the right to enter into that claim and work it, but when a delegation came from the Yukon a year ago last winter, they represented that, though perfectly fair, it might work great injustice. To-day a claim may be abandoned because there is not sufficient water to work it. But, as soon as this work has been done, as soon as it is possible for the miners to use the water, which it is contemplated they will receive if this agreement comes into force, the claims which are valueless now will become valuable. This was such a good reason that we determined to give this privilege. The privilege is given to the company of taking and working abandoned claims, subject to the payment of no fees except the royalty on the output, and for this purpose to enter upon Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, such right to be exercised only when the grantees by the construction of works in pursuance of this franchise are in the position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working thereof. That is all. So long as the work is not completed, they 'cannot take 91J
possession of any claim. But when the works are completed, when they can supply water to all the miners, if any of the miners then abandon their claims, surely there is nothing wrong in the company taking the abandoned claim and trying to work it for their own benefit. So far, it seems to me that no misconception can exist in relation to this matter.
That is the Order in Council we have passed-I have gone over the salient points, and I think we have satisfactorily answered all the objections raised. I am aware that the miners in the Yukon still are not satisfied ; I am aware that they have passed resolutions against it; I have received resolutions, as for instance from the Liberal Association, on this subject. I do not know if that resolution has been quoted by my hon. friends on the other side. They have quoted so many this afternoon, that, while I have endeavoured to follow them all closely, this one may have escaped me. Still, if it has been quoted before it will bear repetition. This is a petition sent to me personally :
The petition ol the Liberal Association of Dawson of the Yukon Territory humbly showeth :-
1.	That this supply of water and power to the miners on the creeks is one of the most serious questions affecting the Yukon Territory.
2.	That in the opinion of your petitioners the provision of a water system whereby the miners may be furnished with water on fair and reasonable terms can best be dealt with by the government itself and should not be allowed to fall under the control of private individuals.
That the development of the resources of the Yukon has been seriously impeded by the appropriation of extensive areas of rich placer ground by hydraulic concessions believed in some instances to have been obtained by fraud and misrepresentation :
Your petitioners therefor pray :
That the Order in Council of April 21, 1902, granting certain rights and privileges to Malcolm Orr-Ewing, A. N. C. Treadgold, and Walter Barwick may be rescinded absolutely, that the government institute forthwith a careful investigation by competent engineers and obtain reports on the subject with a view to undertaking the construction of a public water supply as a national enterprise.
Well, Sir, notwithstanding the respect which a man has always for his own friends, and notwithstanding the high opinion I entertain of the petitioners who are my own political friends, I cannot but feel that they have put the cart before the horse. They say in effect:	First cancel the concession
and then hold an investigation. I think it would have been more logical to ask us first to have an investigation and then, if need be, cancel the Treadgold concession. And that is just what we intended to do. After the investigation we shall know whether the Treadgold concession should be cancelled or not. But, Sir. let us note the consequence. My friends of the Liberal Association ask us, if we cancel the Treadgold concession, to establish a national work to give them

the water they want. I have only to say this in answer to the observations made by my hon. friend from Hastings (Mr. Porter). He asks, speaking of the Order in Council : Why have you refused to make this law; why have you not proclaimed it; why have you not gazetted it ? For the simple and obvious reason that we have received objections and remonstrances against it. We have amended it again and again so as to make it acceptable to the miners of the Yukon. Still, though we have amended it, in my opinion, in a way that should make it acceptable, still we have remonstrances from the board of trade and political associations asking us not to carry it further, but to cancel it. Before we proclaim it, before we place it beyond the possibility of being abolished, it is only fair and reasonable that we should investigate all the matters connected with it to see what should be done in the future. I am giving the reasons, why I think, we were justified in making this Order in Council, at all events, why the motion that is presented by my hon. friend should not be accepted by this House.


Mr. K.: Ii. BORDEN (Halifax). Did I correctly understand the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) to give the opinion that these Orders in Council came into force only when they were gazetted ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: So far as that is concerned, the others were cancelled.


Robert Laird Borden: That is a remarkable answer. I ask my right hon. friend the question whether he expressed the opinion that these orders came into force only after they are gazetted. And he says they are cancelled. What was the use of cancelling them if they never came into force ? Will the right hon. gentleman tell me that ? It seems to me remarkable that the right hon. gentleman, who has studied this question for two or three years, can give no other answer to what seems to me a fair and courteous question than that which he lias just given. I venture to say that the Order in Council of June, 1901, was acted upon over and over again, though it was not gazetted. I asked my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) whether it was gazetted, and I have a memorandum from him stating that it was not. Yet any one who has perused the file of correspondence knows that that Order in Council was regarded as valid and was acted upon. Yet he stands here and ventures to tell this House, and through this House the country, that an Order In Council is not valid until it is gazetted. I do not think he had better chide us on this side for not knowing what we are talking about when be places himself in a position of that kind.
My right hon. friend has told us something about this petition of his Liberal friends in the Yukon, and has taken iUjout as logical a position with regard to Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
that as with regard to the gazetting of these Orders in Council. He says that bis Liberal friends 'in the Y'ukon have asked too much when they demand that this shall be made a national work. It is a pity that he was not always as careful about the requests made to him by his Liberal friends in different parts of Canada. He seemed very sensitive about this request. But is it necessary because his friends in the Yukon ask him to do something unreasonable that he should turn a deaf ear to a portion of this petition-
The development of the resources of the Yukon has been seriously impeded by the appropriation of extensive areas of rich placer ground by hydraulic concessions believed in some instances to have been obtained by fraud and misrepresentation.
Because they ask him to make this a national work, is it necessary that he should turn a deaf ear to the statement of his own political friends-a statement which is qor-robated by the city council and the board of trade of the Yukon-that these concessions have been obtained by fraud aud misrepresentation. My hon. friend the Postmaster General tells ns that the government have been deliberating a long time about holding an investigation into this matter. Since when have the government been intending to bold an investigation ? And bow does it happen, if they have been intending to bold an investigation into these matters, that, up to the present time, no investigation whatever was spoken of in the House until this matter was brought up on this side ? Has my right hon. friend any explanation of that, because if he has, I will sit down and give him a chance to make it to the House. Apparently my right hon. friend has none. Then further than that, I would invite his attention to this clause of that same petition by bis Liberal friends :
That an inquiry may be set on foot to ascertain the circumstances under which the leading hydraulic concessions were obtained, in order that action may he taken by the Attorney General of Canada in the premises.
What are the premises ? The premises are that these mining concessions were obtained by fraud and misrepresentation, and my right bon. friend who is responsible more than any other Minister of the Crown for the government of Canada, has not up to tlie present time seen fit to instruct his Attorney General to take the proceedings demanded by his Liberal friends in the Yukon. What further is there ?
That the Attorney General of Canada do issue a flat, authorizing proceedings to be taken in his name in every case where action is begun against an hydraulic concession in which fraud or misrepresentation is charged, including all such actions as are now pending.
So I think, even if my right hon. friend comes to the conclusion that it is not expedient in the public interest to begin these works as public works, he finds ample food

for thought, for consideration, and what is more, for action, in the suggestions which have been made to him by his own political friends in the Yukon, who are familiar with these matters as no member of this House can be familiar with them. Has my right lion, friend the slightest idea as to what these gentlemen mean when they refer to fraud and misrepresentation by which these concessions have been obtained ? Has he heard anything during the past year ? Has anything been communicated to him ? Have any documents been shown to him ? Has he understood anything on this subject which he has not communicated to the House tonight ? Can he enlighten us as to what his Liberal friends in the Yukon mean when they say deliberately that these concessions have been obtained by fraud and misrepresentation ? Perhaps some information on those points would not have been out of place when my right lion, friend proceeded to enlighten this House to-night with regard to this Treadgold concession.
Great deliberation was exercised in making this concession, says my right lion, friend, and says the Postmaster General, a deliberation of such extreme value that the sum of $1 per miners' inch was placed as the price to be paid by the miners of tills country to those gentlemen who were being urged to accept this concession, a price which, within six mouths afterwards, was reduced by the government to twenty-live cents, and that reduction, I believe, was made with the consent of the concessionaires themselves. Yet my right hon. friend, and the Minister of Railways and Canals who enlarged upon the work performed by a sub-committee of the Privy Council, and the presence of a certain gentleman on it who now occupies a seat on the judicial bench, these gentlemen tell us what a marvellous amount of deliberation was bestowed by the government on these matters. Was there any difficulty in finding out what would be a fair price for the miners' inch ? How long does it take to communicate with the Yukon? Is there not a telegraph line which this government has erected, and which communicates with other telegraph lines in this country ? Could not my right hon. friend have got an answer back the next day ? How long does it take a letter to go ? What was the need of the extreme haste with regard to this matter which led the government to fix a price to be paid by the miners of that country for water to be supplied by these concessionaires, which their own action, six months afterwards, proved to be absolutely ridiculous and absurd? Yet my right hon. friend gets up and informs the House and the country, indeed two ministers of the Crown get up and inform the House and the country of the wonderful amount of time that was spent in deliberating upon the terms of this concession, and of the remarkable value of the services which they rendered to the country in giving their time
and attention to this subject, and in framing a regulation which gave to the miners of the Yukon the privilege of paying one dollar per miner's inch for the use of water.
Now there are one or two observations made, both by the Minister of Railways and Canals and by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister, which I am bound to say I did not expect to hear from either one of these gentlemen; because they both have reputations as lawyers in this country, and I hardly expected that either one of them would have adopted the argument in this House with regard to the meaning of this word ' compensation ' which has been put forward by both of them. My right hon. friend has carefully assured the House that there is a provision in this Order in Council by which the price which the miners are to pay for water to be furnished to them is to be controlled by some tribunal, that is to say, by the Gold Commissioner, subject to appeal to the Territorial Court of the district, i >id my right hon. friend, did the Minister of Railways and Canals, read the first Order in Council ? Did either one of them take the trouble to read that, and did they see at the end of it the subsection (f) in the regulations, which provides that the charge which the grantee should be entitled to make for the use of such water on such claim should not exceed one dollar per miners' inch per hour ? Those regulations are precisely the regulations which are also contained in the second Order in Council, and which are relied upon by my right hon. friend and by the Minister of Railways and Canals as determining the price to be paid. Will my right hon. friend say that these words fulfil any office in the second Order in Council ? which they do not fulfil in the first Order in Council ? Will the Minister of Railways and Canals say that ? Well, I think not. Here is the language of the first Order in Council :
(b.) The grantees shall compensate the owner of any mining claim or lands for any damage which any such owner may sustain by reason of any of the grantees' works breaking or being imperfect.
(c.) Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined judicially by the Gold Commissioner, subject to appeal to the Territorial Court of the district, and the said court may upon special circumstances being shown, make an order for the taking of further evidence.
(f.) The charge which the grantees shall be entitled to make for the use of such water on each claim shall not exceed one dollar per miners' inch per hour.
Now, my right hon. friend bases his argument on the contention that provisions in (b) and (c) which I have read to the House, are contained in the second Order in Council and provide ample security to the miner that he should not be overcharged. Why, if these hon. gentlemen had not stood up in this House and made such an argument to-night, I assure you, Mr. Speaker, I would

not have believed that they would have attempted to make such an argument. Are not the same provisions contained in the first Order in Council which definitely fixes the charge ? Further than that, if anything were necessary to be added, let my right hon. friend the Prime Minister and the Minister of Railways look at the top of page two of the second Order in Council and see what is there contained :
Provided that if any power is developed and rendered available by the grantees under this section which they do not make use of, then the same shall be offered for sale to the public, and the rates to be charged therefor shall be subject to the control of the Governor General in Council.
What was the need of such a regulation as that if the provisions contained in the regulation quoted by my right hon. friend were quite sufficient for the purpose ? Why,
. Mr. Speaker, any one wlio looks at this Order in Council, who looks down the first, second and third pages, will see everywhere that these concessionaires for the purposes of their undertaking have the right of entering upon and using private lands, and every one knows that rights of that kind are not usually granted without provision for compensation. Therefore, it would be an absurd thing to expect that in an Order in Council of that kind you should not find, either in the Order in Council itself or in some regulation attached to it, a provision that acts, done in derogation of those private rights should be compensated for by the individuals who have committed those acts. It is the most reasonable and the most natural thing in the world; and yet my right hon. friend and the Minister of Railways and Canals seek to torture those words, and to make the people of the Yukon believe that there is some guarantee and some safeguard to the miners in the words which are contained in the first Order in Council as well as in the second.
Now, this matter has been gone over very fully by lion, gentlemen who have addressed the House and I was pleased with the frankness with which the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair) admitted beyond all question that this concession is a monopoly. He says it is a monopoly, and he says you must have a monopoly there because you cannot develop a country without creating a monopoly, and he says further that the miners of the Yukon do not know what is good for them. They do not understand their own true interests, that a monopoly of this kind is necessary in the interests of the miners of the Yukon Territory and with considerable force and with all the vigour and all the energy that are so characteristic of the hon. Minister of Railway and Canals he insists that the miners of the Yukon reallv need this monopoly although they are protesting loudly to this parliament and to the whole country that their interests are being absolutelv destroyed by these regulations.


Robert Laird Borden: 


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: They have said that they needed it.


Robert Laird Borden: They have said that they needed it ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, but they want the government to furnish it.


Robert Laird Borden: That they' needed this concession ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: They said that they needed this water.
Mr. BORDEN Halifax). That they needed water ? They have water in the Klondike river and there is one mine owner in that district who raises 1,500 gallons of water per minute for Ihis own use to a height of 300 feet at a cost of less than 25 cents per inch. I will give the exact figures in regard to it. There is one man who has done for his own property and at much less expense a considerable portion of what is proposed to be done by these concessionaires under this second Order in Council. I brought this matter to the attention of the House last year, I have a memorandum under my hand and if I thought it necessary to stop for the purpose I could give it to the House again.
I would like to ask my right hon. friend the leader of the government (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) where are the details of these different schemes that were proposed to the government. In the Order in Council that was passed in June, 1901, we had a very pretty recital in these words :
Whereas, the details of different schemes submitted have been considered and discussed.
I do not see the details of any of the different schemes brought down for the information of the House, and if, as the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals stated, different persons came and proposed different schemes to the government it seems a singular thing that the House should be deprived at this late date of the inestimable privilege of reading them and of considering what these different schemes really were.
Now, my hon. friend the member for Cornwall (Mr. Pringle) made some reference in the course of his remarks to the hon. member who represents the Yukon (Mr. Ross), a very able, and I believe, a very estimable gentleman, although I do not know him sufficiently well to understand whether or not he is worthy of all the encomiums which have been bestowed upon him in the government organ in the Yukon, or whether he can be called a 'lightning striker ' on all occasions. Whether he can be called a lightning striker on most occasions, I do not know, but certainly in so far as this Treadgold concession is concerned, he cannot be considered a lightning striker because this parliament has
MAY 12, 1903 i
been in session for eiglit weeks, and although that hon. gentleman was elected on a platform which pledged him to secure the repeal of this concession, he has not been able to attempt anything in regard to it.
I was greatly amused indeed to hear the hon. Postmaster General boasting of the return of the hon. gentleman who at present is the representative of the Yukon Territory. I was particularly amused at that because the very platform on which that hon. gentleman was elected to this House was a platform which denounced the action of this government in regard to its administration of the Yukon Territory. Although the election of the hon. gentleman was heralded through the press of this country as a victory for the government, and as a certificate of good character for this government in regard to the Yukon Territory, it was a certificate of exactly the opposite nature because the hon. gentleman who now fills the position of representative of the Yukon would have been snowed under by 1,500 of a majority had he not pledged himself upon the public platform and through his duly authorized agents in that territory to do all he could upon coming to this parliament to remedy the evils caused by this government and particularly in regard to the concessions that have been spoken of. There is no doubt of that because the present Gold Commissioner of the Yukon, when certain eastern newspapers had reached Dawson and when lie had read that these newspapers proclaimed that this was a Liberal victory, took occasion to write to a newspaper in the Yukon Territory to say that it was nothing of the kind and that the truth was that Liberals and Conservatives had joined together in support of that hon. gentleman who now represents the Yukon because he had pledged himself to undo the wrongs which had been done by this government and because they thought him more capable of obtaining a remedy for these wrongs than the gentleman who was his opponent on that occasion. Let the Postmaster General not descend to any pettiness of that kind because his own Gold Commissioner, appointed by him only a few weeks ago, has taken occasion to rebuke utterances of that kind and the language which he used then in rebuking these eastern newspapers is just as much a rebuke to the hon. Postmaster General for the language which he had used to-day. Now, the hon. Postmaster General talked in the style that has been heard sometimes in this House about irresponsible individuals who are making charges. When he was asked by my hon. friend from Cornwall to whom he referred by irresponsible individuals, the hon. Postmaster General was somewhat at a loss to answer, and eventually, on being asked if he made the assertion that the board of trade of Dawson was irresponsible he took back


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I never made that assertion.


Robert Laird Borden: Well, who was it that the hon. gentleman referred to as being irresponsible ? Has the hon. gentleman, after cogitating over that matter for an hour, discovered who is irresponsible ? I want the House to understand that he did not refer to one .irresponsible individual but to irresponsible individuals. It is not the board of trade, it is not the city council, it is not his Liberal friends, it is not the members of the Liberal Association, it is not the editor of the government organ. We are reduced to the editor of the independent journal in the Yukon, who apparently is the only person to whom the hon. gentleman refers when he mentions irresponsible individuals. I will give the hon. minister some responsible individuals and I will give him some of their utterances, because my hon. friends who have been addressing the House to-night, have forgotten a very excellent presentment of this case which is to be found in a report of a committee appointed at a mass meeting of Yukon citizens, and I will tell him when I get through who it was who signed this report and I will ask the hon. gentleman whether he regards this individual as being irresponsible :
The undersigned -who were appointed by the general committee nominated at the mass meeting held at Dawson on the evening ot Monday, the seventeenth of February instant, as a sub-committee to collect information and make a report in regard to the objectionable features of the Treadgold concession, beg to report as follows

The hon. Postmaster General and the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals will observe that this committee took credit to themselves for doing what the government did. They collected information about this concession. They took apparently as much trouble in regard to it as the government might have taken considering the figure which the government directed the miners to pay for the water furnished them by the concessionaires. Then this is the result of their deliberations:
It is easy to understand how intelligent gentlemen at the capital should be misled both as to the value of the water supply contemplated by the Treadgold concession, as to the size of the capital proposed to be invested by him and as to the value of the concessions made to him, but in the opinion of your committee no one in possession of the information which your committee has been able to obtain, by search^ at the gold commissioner's office, by numerous interviews with miners, engineers, and other men practically acquainted with the conditions of this territory, and from every source available, can doubt that the supply of water contemplated by the scheme of the applicants for the concession is a mere stalking horse under cover of which he may obtain absolute possession of enormous mining tracts practically embracing the richest known mining district in the territory.

Perhaps, in order to secure the attention of the Postmaster General to this, I may tell him that this report is signed by a very important friend of his. It continues :
It seems to your committee that while from a logical or scientific point of view the instruments containing the Treadgold concession are of a most imperfect and inartistic kind.
Notwithstanding, you will observe the great work of preparation which the government put upon it.
They are, from the point of view of Mr. Treadgold and his associates, framed with clever adroitness.
Does not my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) think that, after all, Mr. Treadgold put more work upon it than did the government ?


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: It continues :
They are complex, involved and obscure, and as a consequence difficult to readily understand, and appear to have been purposely framed in that way to deceive into the belief that the Treadgold people were conferring an enormous benefit on the country and were receiving small return, whereas they are in effect giving little or nothing and receiving vast benefits.
What a different view they seem to take of the situation from that which my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals presented with so much ardour to the House to-night. He wanted something attractive for capitalists. He told us you could not get capitalists to come forward unless you had something attractive, so the government were bound to make this attractive-and I don't know whether the capitalists made it attractive also or not.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: The report continues :
Your committee has special reports made by individual members of the committee on the various features of the concession, which reports have been submitted to the committee and approved by it and are herewith attached and returned to the general committee for its information.
To summarize the many opinions and views adverse to the concession is most difficult, but your committee desires to lay special stress on the following particulars :-
(1.) That the concession instruments ignore to a very large extent and override the rights and vested interests already created by private enterprises and private capital.
(2.) That Treadgold makes no adequate covenants to insure fair and reasonable supply of water to miners who may require it.
(3.) That the maximum of price is too high and that his powers of impounding water and obtaining abandoned claims and his exclusive, sole and prior right with regard to water, afford him a most potent lever to compel payment of his exorbitant rates of abandonment of property.
(4.) That the closing to the prospector and the miner of large tracts of country, the ignoring of private rights, the exclusive rights and the other special privileges granted to the con-


Robert Laird Borden: cession, will create a state of uncertainty in the most important section of the community that will be most injurious to the interests of the territory and will tend both to deprive the government of revenue and the business community of the territory of a large branch of trade.
(5.) That the expropriation clauses are not framed with due regard to the rights of individual owners and have no adequate provisions for indemnification.
I may say, of course, I should perhaps have explained before reading this : that it is directed to the Order in Council as at first framed, and whatever benefit my hon. friends on the other side can get from any differences between the first Order in Council and this Order in Council, they, of course, go to mitigate any criticism in the document I am reading. But I entirely agree with the hon. gentlemen who have addressed the House to-night, and who have said that so far as the interests of this country are concerned, and so far as the protection of the Yukon miners is concerned, there is very little difference indeed between the concessions granted under the first Order in Council and that granted by the Order in Council of last year.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
Mr.' BORDEN (Halifax). This report continues :
In conclusion your committee very greatly fear that if the concession is allowed to stand in its present form and without most radical amendments and alterations that a monopoly will be created that will practically comminate the richest part of the Yukon Territory. In the opinion of your committee the best scheme for supplying water for mining purposes would be one initiated, operated and controlled by the government, but above all it is undesirable that a monopolist of the water supply should at the same time be a competitor in mining operations with miners dependent upon him for their water supply.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: And it is one of the most powerful criticisms that has ever been made against this concession granted to Treadgold and his associates : that not only do you put these gentlemen in practical control of the water supply of the Yukon, but you also put them in actual and every day competition with the very men to whom they are to supply that water.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


An hon. MEMBER.: Who signs that report ?


Robert Laird Borden: 
Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: Now, Mr. Speaker, I submit to my right hon. friend that one of two propositions is true : Either there is something in these matters that have been so alleged, which the government should have investigated long ago, or else Mr. Fred. T. Congdon is not fit to be Commissioner of the Yukon.


An hon. MEMBER.: Governor of the Yukon.


Robert Laird Borden: Governor of the Yukon, or commissioner, or whatever his official title is ; he has put his name as chairman of that committee to a document which contains as grave an indictment of this concession as anything which has been said on this side of the House to-night-as grave an indictment of this concession, I repent, as anything which has been said by any gentleman on this side of the House tonight.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Robert Laird Borden: And yet, without such investigation as is demanded here ; without the government making any such amendment in that Order in Council as removes the objectionable features complained of. that gentleman takes the position of commissioner to the Yukon, and I believe he has lately said to the people of that country :	that this question of the Treadgold
concession is one to be dealt with by the government and the parliament here at Ottawa. And, Sir, we are now trying to get this government in this parliament to deal with it, and we are proposing a resolution here to-night which does not go one whit further in condemnation of this Treadgold concession than the voice of not only the business men of the Yukon, not only the civic government of the Yukon, but even of those gentlemen in the Yukon who are the best friends and supporters of the government that stands at the head of affa'irs in Canada to-day. And yet my right hon. friend thinks apparently that there is nothing in this complaint which demands any attention at the hands of this House, or which requires this House to hasten the action of the government by some such resolution as that which has been proposed by my hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain). I shall not go into the argument of the legal question. I have heard no answer to the argument which has been put forward by my hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) and by my hon. friend from Cornwall (Mr. Pringle) and the other hon. gentlemen who have addressed the House to-night.
Until there is some answer given to it other than'that which I have heard, X do not think it is worth while for me to take up the time of the House in attempting to discuss that question. In conclusion, it seems to me, not only from the legal standpoint, but, what is even of more importance from the standpoint of public policy in regard to these concessions, that the resolution which has been proposed to the House by my hon. friend from Montmorency is one that ought to command the support of this House and that ought to be assented to by this government; and this Treadgold concession, which has created so much scandal in that western country, should once and for all be done away with. If the government decides to deal with this matter, let it deal with it by open competition among people throughout the country who are willing to undertake a work of this kind. Let it deal with it in such a way that there shall be competition after the waterworks shall be once established. Let it deal with it in such a way at least that the government shall have complete and ample supervision over their operations after it lias once established them in that country.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon. Okas. Fitzpatrick).: Mr. Speaker, with all tha skill and all the ingenuity which is born of long experience in the disputes of the courts, my hon. friend who proposed this motion, and those who spoke previous to the leader of the opposition laboured strenuously to establish two things : First, that this concession was issued illegally and improvidently, and second, that the miners do not approve of it. I said that my hon. friends laboured strenuously to establish these two propositions, and I am forced to admit, in view of the heat displayed by the hon. leader of the opposition, that he must be thoroughly' convinced that they did not labour successfully.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: He found it necessary to add another count to the indictment which is brought against this concession, and he added, not by direct statement, but by inference, by suggestion, the charge of fraud. Now, my answer to that is that if the hon. leader of the opposition was in earnest, if he really meant what he [DOT] said when he stated that this concession was tainted with fraud, it was his clear duty to say so in the motion he submitted for the consideration of this House.


Robert Laird Borden: Is my hon. friend referring to me ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I aui referring to the leader of the opposition.


Robert Laird Borden: I was not quite sure. In the remarks I made I read merely a quotation from the Liberal club in the Yukon, and I said that statements made by gentlemen of the standing which I attributed to those gentlemen deserved consideration at the hands of this government.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hon. friend rested his case largely on that; but I said a moment ago that he proceeded further, and made the charge, not openly, but by means of an insinuation. I repeat the statement now, and I immediately proceed to prove it. My hon. friend said, in discussing this matter, that the lion. Minister of Railways suggested that this concession had to 'be made attractive to capitalists, and he added that the capitalists had made it attractive to other people. Tell me what that means if it is mot an insinuation of fraud. Now, I say that if the hon. leader of the opposition intended to charge fraud, his clear duty was not to proceed by insinuation, but to make a direct charge.


Robert Laird Borden: The charge had already been made by the hon. gentleman's friends.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: No friend of mine, or no man would continue to be a friend of mine, who would make a charge of that description, not being prepared to prove it. Now, my hon. friend did not go over the ground covered by my hon. friends who preceded him, and I think that I have substantially answered the greater part of his speech. I would like mow merely to refer to what he said with respect to the Commissioner of the Yukon, Mr. Congdon, and I would like to draw the attention of the House to this fact, that the memorandum prepared by the present Commissioner of the Yrukon Territory had reference to the first Order in Council, that that memorandum asked for amendments to that Order in Council, and that these amendments having been made, and that that gentleman having accepted the responsibility of taking the position of Commissioner of the Yukon, declared thereby that he was content with those amendments; and, so far as those amendments go, the answer to the memorandum to which my hon. friend alluded is complete. I shall endeavour now to deal with some things that fell from my hon. friends who preceded the hon. leader "of the opposition. They tried to make good the last charge to which I have referred, that is to say, that the miners of the Yukon do not approve of this concession, by referring to newspaper articles and to resolutions passed at miners' meetings. With those who are not familiar with the strong, vigorous and picturesque language which characterizes those Who frequent mining camps, those resolutions and articles must have


Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.: some effect; but I for my part take the responsibility of saying that while those resolutions and articles may express the first opinions formed of these concessions by the miners of the Yukon, their sober, second thought is represented by the evidence they gave on the 2nd of December last, when they returned the government candidate with a majority of 891. This not only shows how, on sober, second thought, they considered this matter, but it also shows that they are satisfied that this government will lend not merely a patient and willing, but an anxious ear to any representations they have to make, and that as the first Order in Council was amended to suit their requirements, if in the second objections are to be found, these objections wall be met in the same spirit in which the first objections were met at the time the second Order in Council was passed. I am satisfied that the miners of the Yukon have confidence that this government will deal with them fairly and equitably, and that when it can be established that there is any real grievance existing in any part of this Dominion, no matter how remote it may be, that grievance shall be remedied by this government when it is made known.
I am going to deal with the second Order in Council. I do not intend to discuss the first, because, having been repealed, it is absolutely out of the way. But so far as I have been able to follow the argument of my hon. friends on the other side of the House, their argument is that that second Order in Council was unconstitutional, was illegal, that it was not within the power of the government to pass it. In giving my answer to that, I want to say that I give my firm deliberate opinion, because I have had occasion to discuss this question very recently in the Supreme Court in connection with tiie question of royalty in the Yukon, when this whole question of Orders in Council with respect to mining in the Yukon was before the court. For the benefit of my hon. friends. I will tell them that they can find the wihole report of the case in the current number of the Supreme Court reports, Volume 32, number 4. The cases begin at page 586.


Robert Laird Borden: Are these the cases in which leave to appeal has been applied for ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.
Mi\ CASGRAIN. And granted ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.
Leave to appeal was applied for and granted on both sides. The Crown appealed on one question, and the miners on the other. We may as well state the facts clearly while we are at it. What is my reason for coming to the conclusion that it was within the powers of the government to make this Order in Council ? Section forty-seven of the Dominion Land Act, as amended, pro-

vitles that the Governor In Council may make regulations to provide for the sale or lease or other disposal of mining property in the North-west Territories.
The North-west Territories of course include the Yukon. Then it is provided that the Governor in Council shall have the power by regulation to determine the conditions under which this property shall be disposed of. Acting on the power conferred by this section, mining regulations were made, as far back as 18S9, authorizing a subordinate official in the Yukon to dispose of the mines there. But if the Governor in Council has the power to determine by regulation the conditions under which this property shall pass out of the hands of the Dominion government, surely he has the right to do that himself. Surely what the Governor General in Council can do by deputy, he can do by himself. That is my opinion, and I think, without boasting, that it may have some value. If the Governor General in Council can by regulation authorize a subordinate official to sell, surely he can as effectively sell, by virtue of a deed passed by the Council itself. That is at all events my opinion and I give it for what it is worth, and perhaps my hon. friends may in time come to the conclusion that it is worth something. The development district depends very largely upon the creation of hydraulic power. So long as you have rich mining deposits it is easy to take the gold from the bosom of the earth by the ordinary means which the individual miner controls. But when you have exhausted the richer deposits and have to deal with what is called a poor pay streak, then in order to work that successfully, you must have hydraulic power. Therefore, the only question is, whether or not, in the first instance, it was right for the government to authorize the development of that power by a private company, or whether it would have been proper for the government itself to develop it. Whether right or wrong, the conclusion come to by the government was that it was better to give the development of that power to a private corporation-that it was more in the interests of the country that the work should be done by a private company than by the government. The question for the House to consider is whether the granting of that power to a private corporation was surrounded by such conditions as would moke the grant as advantageous to the public as possible and as little onerous to the miners. What are the terms of the grant ? I am now dealing with the only Order in Council which is in existence. That Order in Council gives to Mr. Treadgold and his associates two things. First, the right to divert the Klondike river for the purpose of generating power. They have first the right to divert and take water from the Klondike river in order to develop
power, which power is to be used for mining purposes, but what my hon. friends were careful to overlook is that the right thus given is made subject to the right, which is vested in every miner, of himself taking first from the river sufficient water for the working of his claim, but not to exceed 3,500 miners' inches. The miner has the first right to take that amount of water from the Klondike, and it is only after he has exercised that right that Mr. Treadgold and associates are entitled to take any water whatever for the purpose of generating power. What is the meaning of that right to take 3,500 miners' inches ? Let us take the definition of a miners' inch given by my hon. friend from Montmorency. He says it is equal to a volume of water twelve feet square, so that if you multiply 3,500 by twelve feet square, you will see that volume of water which each miner is entitled to take per minute. In addition to the right to take from the river the water necessary to develop power, the company have the right to distribute water in the district Let me quote the words of the concession so that you may understand the extent to which this right to divert the water goes. Subsection two provides that the company shall have :
The prior right-subject to the provisions contained in clause one-to divert and take water from the Klondike river for distribution and use in the district up to 5,000 miners' inches.
That is the right they have got, and I should be curious for somebody to make me understand exactly what that means- the right to divert and to take up 5.000 miners' inches. After they have taken that, is their right exhausted ?


Mr. HE  YD@: Out of that 5,000 how much is already disposed of to the miners ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The miner gets his 3,500 miners' inches first before everybod else. Under section ten, the company have an additional right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output, to make an entry for and work any abandoned mining claim or claims on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker creeks, such right to be exercisable only when the grantees, by the construction of works in pursuance of this purchase, are in a position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working thereof. What does that section mean ? It means that after the hydraulic works have been built and are in operation and the grantees are prepared to divert the water necessary to enable any man to take up an abandoned claim and work it. then, if no one else will take it up. they can do so. After the company have developed the power and taken the water and are ready to distribute it, then only, and not until then, have they the right to take up any abandoned claim. Any one else can take it in the interval.

My hon. friends have objected that tliey have the right to take up the abandoned claims without being subjected to the preliminary formality or obligation imposed upon the other miners, that is, of paying the entry fee and representation fee. What does the representation fee mean ? The word indicates its meaning. Any man may go on property and work it, but, in order that he may maintain his title to it, it is necessary for him to expend at least $200 to develop that property every year, because a mining location is granted for a year. But, if a man goes away from the country-say, for instance, water is scarce and the facilities are not such as to enable him to work his property successfully-he is represented by the $200 in lieu of the work to be done on the property. That is what is meant by ' representation.' What is the reason for this fee ? It is to provide that the properties may not lie fallow, not remain undeveloped. But, if you have such conditions as that in connection with this enterprise, to carry out which, I am told, it will be necessary to spend perhaps four or five millions of dollars to develop power-I know nothing about the facts, but I am told this is the case-and if they develop the power, and take an abandoned claim and seek to develop it, what is the use of a representation fee from them 1 Are they not represented by the works they have done and by the utilizing of the power that they have created ? It seems to me that the reason of the exception in tlieir favour in that respect is absolutely elementary. Now, my hon. friend was very severe and very sarcastic when he spoke of the legal members of the government who had occasion to give a legal construction to this concession. He was good enough to say that no first year's student-if I understood him-would venture to take the responsibility for the opinion expressed by, for instance, a gentleman with such a reputation at the bar as that of the hon. Minister of Railways-leaving out the other two. I am afraid he is going to have another legal student, because I hold, and I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to the House, that the construction put upon the concession by the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) is arguable, and not only that it is arguable, but that it is the only construction that can be put upon the document if you are going to give effect to all its parts. Take, first, section 2 :
The prior right to divert and take water from the Klondike river for distribution and use in the district up to five thousand miners' inches.
Then, section 9 :
The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to use, distribute and dispose of by sale or otherwise the water delivered by the grantees within the district.
Section 2 is to be read in connection with section 9. The right to distribute the water and dispose of it by sale is vested in the Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.
concessionaires, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained. What are those regulations ? They are to be found on page 4. And one of them is that any question of compensation arising under the grant shall be determined judicially by the Gold Commissioner. I do not mean to say that that is drawn as artistically as it might be by a first-class lawyer. There may be better draughtsmen than the gentleman who drew this. But I say that it is susceptible of the construction put upon it, and if effect is to be given to it, this is the only construction. Then take section 10 :
The right, subject to no payment except the royalties prescribed upon output to make entry for and work any abandoned mining claim or claims on Bonanza. Bear and Hunker creeks, such rights to be exercised only when the grantees by the construction of works in pursuance of this franchise are in a position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working thereof.
There is a provision again that they shall deliver the water on the claims for the working of the claims. How is the compensation to be settled ? By private bargain, or in the manner fixed by subsection c, of the regulations. There is no other way under the Order in Council to determine the question and make an authoritative decision. That is the only construction you ban put upon it.


Robert Laird Borden: Would my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) put the same construction on the first Order in Council V


The MINISTER OF .THSTICE.: I am not looking at the first Order in Council at all. That has passed out of the realm of discussion. I am not going to argue on a thing that is not in force.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think my hon. friend would argue that.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hon. friend draws my attention to the fact that one of the grievances alleged by the miners of the Yukon country is that the hydraulic company would enter into competition with the miners. What is the hydraulic power for ? They develop the power and they take the abandoned claims-the claims that nobody else wants-and develop them. So far as the miner is concerned, he is entitled to his own property and he is working his own property. The company do not compete with them. It is not because the hydraulic miner is in the neighbourhood dealing with another property that he competes with the ordinary miner. I do not see how there could be competition. That is the way in which this Order in Council appeals to me. The people of the Yukon country require the water for the development of their property. And not only that, but it seems to me it would be a matter of oversight on the part of the government if, with the knowledge we have of the properties in that country, we were not prepared to encour-

age any one wlio was willing to go in and develop hydraulic power. Any man who will go in there and invest four or five million dollars to develop hydraulic power deserves to be encouraged. He is going into a patriotic work to enable us to develop the country, which, without that would develop very slowly and would never come to its full state of development. So long as the powers given to the company are surrounded by such safeguards as will enable them to operate for their own profit and advantage, but not to the detriment of the people of that country, there is no blame attachable to the government. What, in fact, is the concession ? It is a grant to the hydraulic company the right to take from the Klondike river a certain quantity of water to generate power. And that right can only be exercised after the miners have been satisfied to the extent of having 3,500 miners' inches. After they have received that quantity of water the balance may be taken for the purpose of generating power. It seems to me the point towards which my hon. friends opposite should have directed their attention, was to show that when we granted to the free miner that quantity of water, 3,500 inches, we granted them a quantity insufficient for their works. Not a single word has been said on that point. From the representations that come from the Yukon, and, so far as my knowledge goes, having listened attentively to all that has been read, it seems to me that there is a complete misapprehension on the part of those who have made representations with regard to the nature of this concession.
It seems to me that the miners of the 'Yukon should have shown that when we gave them that quantity of water we did 'not give them what was necessary to satisfy their demand. If we gave them water necessary to satisfy their demand, and if in addition we supplied them with this power, it seems to me they ought to be thankful to the government for what we have done. We give them what they wanted, and we give them the additional advantage they have now. It seems to me that is something to the credit of the government. The grantees 'have the right, it is true, to take water from the Klondike river and distribute it in the district. You understand there is a difference between taking water from the Klondike river for the purpose of generating power, and taking water for the purpose of distributing it. They have got that latter power also, but no representation has been made, no statement has been made that either of these rights vested in tlie Tread-gold Company operate detrimentally to the miners. No statement has been made that the miner is not entirely satisfied with the right which he has to take his quantity of water in preference to all the others. In addition to that, they have the right to enter upon an abandoned claim and to work it. Now what does that mean ? It means
that after they have developed this concession a year-and they have already had it for a year without spending any money upon it-after they are in a position to deliver water on these claims, if any one else wants the claims they are entitled to have them. That is all they have a right to with respect to these abandoned claims, and there is nothing more in it. Looking at it in that aspect, there is nothing in this that we cannot justify, nothing which we cannot all stand up for, nothing in it which does not show foresight, and careful consideration. But if there is anything wrong in it, as the Prime Minister said when he addressed the House, as the Postmaster General said when he addressed the House, we are prepared to listen, as we were originally, to any grievance that may be made known to us and we are prepared to remedy it.
Mx-. SAMUEL BARKER (Hamilton). I think most gentlemen in this House must have been surprised to hear the Minister of Justice argue gravely that the sober second thought of the people of the Yukon was in favour of this Order in Council because they elected tlie Hon. Mr. Ross to represent them in this House. Surely the hon. gentleman, in saying that, must presume a good deal upon the forgetfulness of the members of this House. After it has been proved that the Hon. Mr. Ross was elected on the distinct platform that he would see to getting this Order in Council cancelled, to assert that the sober second thought of the people of the Yukon was in favour of the Order in Council is most extraordinary on the part of the Minister of Justice. 1 understood tlie Minister of Justice to say further -that the present governor of the Yukon had changed his mind as to the expression of opinion read by the leader of the opposition a few minutes ago. I have here a paper printed in Dawson one month ago, containing an interview with the governor of the Yukon, who gave his opinion at that late date upon this very question. It is very emphatic, and I will read it :
As to the Treadgold concession, I may say I favour its cancellation. I am in the same position with regard to the subject as I always have been.
And his opinion had been expressed in that strong language that was read a short time ago by the leader of the opposition.
I am satisfied that he should have no more privileges than any one else. I will not say that I favour the total cancellation of the Treadgold concession, that is, I shall not put it in that way, hut say I believe he should have no privileges that others do not have. As to what parliament is likely to do with the matter I cannot say.
If anybody could say more emphatically that he remains of the same opinion that he formerly expressed, I do not see in what words he might say it. Now I wish to refer

to a statute the Minister of Justice read, and to another statute that lie did not read. Clause 47 that was read by the minister has this provision :
Lands containing coal or other minerals, including lands in the Rocky Mountains Park, should not he subject to the provisions of this Act respecting sale or homestead entry, but the Governor General in Council may, from time to time, make regulations for the working and development of mines on such lands, and for the sale, leasing, licensing or other disposal thereof.
That is sale or other disposal of the mines. But there is a section in the Yukon Territory Act passed in 1899, which reads :
Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Governor General in Council may make ordinances for the peace, order and good government of the territory.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: What statute are you reading from ?


Mr. BARKER.: This is the Yukon Territory Act of 1899, 62 and OH Vic., Chap. 11, section 2.
Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Governor in Council may make ordinances for the peace, order and good government of the territory, and of Her Majesty's subjects and others therein; but no ordinance made by the Governor in Council, or the Commissioner in Council shall

(c.) appropriate any public land or other property of Canada without authority of parliament.
That seems to me pretty clear and emphatic. But notwithstanding that Adt, in this Order in Council the government did grant to Mr. Treadgold and his companions the right to purchase any Crown lands required by the grantees for the purpose of their works, ait a price not exceeding $10 per acre. I think the Minister of Justice will have to admit, I do not see how he can get out of it, that this is in direct contravention of the Yukon Act which expressly provides .that the Governor in Council shall not appropriate any public lands without the authority of parliament. The hon. gentleman then went on to argue upon other clauses of the Order in Council, and lie laid some stress upon the provision that the properties of the grantee shall be exempt from representation, arguing that the reason they were exempted from the charges called * representation ' was because of the expenditures they were making, I presume, unusual expenditures. A few minutes afterwards the Minister of Justice tells us that they have been there for a year and have not spent a dollar, but under the very terms of the Order in Council they are not obliged to spend a dollar for six years; and yet during the whole of these six years they are free from the charges called representation. Surely by reason of this concession the public are excluded from these lands, while these people have practically a six years' option to use them.


Samuel Barker: 


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: What other powers can the concessionaires exercise if after six years they have forfeited the use of the water in the Klondike ?


Samuel Barker: They have first the sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike river for the purpose of generating power with which to pump water.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Suppose they lose that right ?


Samuel Barker: Does the hon. Postmaster General mean to say that the other privileges they have obtained under this Order in Council are of no value ? What about the privilege of providing water for the purposes of the public. There are two distinct powers given in this Order in Council. One enables them to provide power from the Yukon waters, and the other enables them to provide the people with water as a water company in a city might do. Is that not valuable ?	*


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Is it not quite an ordinary thing to grant powers that are not terminable and yet do not exclude the granting of similar powers to others ?


Samuel Barker: It is a very unusual thing j to grant privileges to a water company without obliging them to supply water, i never
heard of such a ease.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I have no doubt there are plenty of cases.


Samuel Barker: There is not a word in the Order in Council compelling the concessionaires to supply water to anybody. They have the right to do it, but you took out the peremptory words that they must supply, and you gave the company the mere privilege of supplying water if they chose to do so.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The only water they have the right to sell is surplus water.


Samuel Barker: They have the right to sell all the water they please, that comes within what may be called their territory. What I am speaking about is a distinct thing altogether from the right to create and sell power. What does the Order in Council say about power ? The hon Postmaster General made a point of that. That provision is also in somewhat equivocal terms. It says that 1 provided ' any power is developed which the grantees do not make use of themselves it shall be offered for sale to the public. Is it likely that these people are going to generate j)ower that they have no need of, unless it is to their interest to do so ? What is there to protect the interest of the public ? The Minister of Railways and Canals told us frankly that this is a monopoly, and if so why was it necessary to say that if they created any power beyond what they needed for their own use, they should sell it. Why was it not said that they must furnish water for those who needed it, and that the government could settle what the terms would be ? The fact is, that from beginning to end this Order in Council has been drawn by a set of gentlemen who are seeking to get from the public all they possibly can without undertaking any obligation whatever in return. That is the spirit of it from first to last, and any person who reads that document will come to that conclusion. In clause 5 they are given the right to purchase Crown land, a right, I say, which the government had no power to give. All through there are rights given and no obligations stipulated for in return. They have the right, subject to no payment, except the royalty prescribed upon the output, to make entry over and work any abandoned mining claims on Bonanza.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Read the next clause.
Mr. BARKER, It says :
Such right to be exercisable only when the grantees by the construction of works in pursuance of this franchise are in a position to deliver water upon such claim or claims for the working thereof.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman was proceeding to argue that although the concessionaires may lose


Samuel Barker: the rights in section 1, they would have a lot of other rights. This right in section 10 would also fall to the ground If the concessionaires lost their rights under section 1.


Samuel Barker: At the expiration of six years and not till then.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman was arguing differently a moment ago.


Samuel Barker: No. I say that all these provisions are without limitation, if they are not limited by the six years.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Section 10 is dependent on section 1, which cannot be perpetual.


Mr BARKER.: Does the Postmaster General think that it was right to give these concessions to the Treadgolds to subject the public of the Yukon to a concession deterring capital, and causing consternation, as this Order in Council did cause consternation ; and all because the government did not take a little trouble to care for the country's interests. Another clause gives Treadgolds the right to assign any of the rights conferred upon them to any person whatever. The whole order from first to last was given to these people, or rather prepared for them, so that they could farm it out as they pleased. They could act upon what part they pleased and sell out what they pleased, and the public of the Yukon were to be subject to them and under their domination. I do not want to take the time of the House further, but I repeat tbat I think there cannot be any question that under the Yukon Act I have referred to, there is no power at all in the government to contract that these concessionaires should have the land of the Crown at any price, or free. The Act expressly provides that there shall be no appropriation of the public lands without the authority of parliament, and yet all this dealing has been going on upon the assumption on the part of the ministers that they have the right to appropriate the public lands of the Yukon. We on this side say that they have no such right, and the Minister of Justice did not cite the Act to which I refer and which is express on that point.


Edmund Boyd Osler: What struck me in connection with this interesting and important debate is that the government are perhaps most to blame for having gone into a transaction of this sort without their evidently having any knowledge of the requirements of the country. I asked the right hon. the Prime Minister whether he had any report as to the probable cost of tlie work which is supposed to be covered by tlie Treadgold concession, and I gathered from his reply that the government had no report, and had not caused any reports to be made as to what the cost of this necessary work would be. Surely, in the case

of a private individual owning such a territory and owning valuable property rights which were to be developed to bring in revenue; surely before such a concession as this was granted a private individual would have had his own engineers and his own scientific officers to report as to the probable cost of the work proposed to be done by people asking for such a valuable franchise. I gather that the government took no steps to ascertain what the proposed work would cost. The first Order in- Council was given in June, 1901, and very shortly after that strong opposition was made to the terms of the grant. Later on another order was passed altering in some points the case in which there has been practically a case in which there has been practically a continuous opposition and not one demand from the people of that country for the confirmation of this concession; from that day to this the government apparently have taken no steps whatever to ascertain what the cost of these works would be. Now, as a rule, 1 am against the government undertaking works of this kind, but I hold that it was the first duty of the government before granting the concession, to ascertain what the cost of such work would be to the con-eesionaires. In the face of the government having no such knowledge, they gave to this company an option-because it is simply and solely an option-for six years of what may be enormously valuable privileges, and the concessionaires are not required to spend a dollar of money for six years. Naturally a body of men with a concession like that, having six years in which to make the most of it, will not be in a hurry to carry the work out or to put such a concession on the market. The market for a year past has not been a favourable one for floating a concern of this kind. The conditions may change at any time within six years, and these men may take advantage of any change in the money market. Naturally they would do so. It would be quite proper for them to do so. Having obtained the concession from this government, it would be quite proper for them, as a pure business proposition, to hold it until they could bring it out at the most favourable time to float it. Naturally they will hold it until they can unload it with the largest amount of profit to themselves. And for six years you are depriving these miners, who you say are so anxious to have water, of the possibility of getting water unless these concessionaires can see the chance in the meantime of selling what you give them at a very large profit. I think it was the first duty of the government, when they found that such a work was required, to ascertain what such a work would cost, and how far it was required to be gone on with at once, and, having done that, to have invited tenders, or let the public know that they were open and willing to receive offers for building these water flumes and de-92
veloping the water power in that country. On these two points I think the government are very seriously to blame, and have possibly committed that part of the country to a serious loss.
House divided on amendment of Mr. Casgrain.
YEAS :
Messieurs
Alcorn.	Johnston (Cardwell),
Avery,	Kaulbach,
Ball.	Kemp,
Barker.	Lancaster
Bennett,	LaRividre,
Birkett.	Lefurgey,
Blain,	Lennox,
Borden (Halifax),	Maclaren (Perth),
Brock.	McCormick,
Bruce.	McGowan,
Cargill,	Monk,
Carscallen,	Osier,
Casgrain,	Pringle,
Clancy,	Puttee.
Clarke.	Reid (Grenville),
Cochrane,	Richardson.
Culbert,	Robinson (Elgin),
Earle.	Rosamond,
Fowler,	Smith (Vancouver),
Gilmour,	Smith (Wentworth),
Hackett.	Sproule.
Haggart,	Taylor,
Hale,	Thomson (Grey),
Henderson.	Tolton,
Hughes (Victoria),	V rooman.
Ingram,	Wilson.-52.
	NAYS :
Messieurs	
Angers,	Lang,
Bazinet,	Laurier (Sir Wilfrid),
Beith,	Laurier (L'Assomption),
Beland,	Lavergne,
Belcourt,	Law.
Bernier,	LeBlanc,
Bickerdike,	Lemieux.
Blair.	Logan,
Borden (Sir Frederick), Loy,	
Bourassa,	Mackie,
Brown,	MacKinnon,
Bureau.	MacLaren (Huntingdon)
Calvert,	Macpherson,
Campbell,	McCarthy,
Carroll,	McCool,
Champagne,	McCreary,
Christie.	McGugan,
Copp,	Mclsaac,
Costigan,	Madore.
Cowan.	Marcll (Bagot),
Davis,	Marcil (Bonaventure),
Delisle,	Matheson,
Demers (LSvls),	Meigs,
Demers (St. John),	Mignault,
Desjardins,	Mulock (Sir William),
Douglas,	Murray,
Dyment,	Paterson,
Dugas,	Power,
Emmerson,	Prdfontaine,
Erb,	Proulx.
Ethier,	Reid (Restigouche),
Fielding,	Riley,
Fitzpatrick,	Roche (Halifax),
Fortier,	Ross (Ontario),
Galllher,	Ross (Rimouskl),
Gauvreau,	Ross (Victoria, N.S.)
Geoffrion,	Russell,
Gibson,	Scott,

291*

Girard,	Stephens,
Gould.	Sutherland (Oxford),
Grant.	Talbot,
Harty,	Thompson (Haldimand),
Harwood,	Tobin.
Heyd.	Tucker.
Holmes,	Turcot,
Hughes (King's,	P.E.I.),Turgeon,
Hyman,	Wade.-95.
Johnston (Cape Breton), PAIRS : Messieurs	
Ministerial.	Opposition.
Parmelee,	Pope,
Cartwright,	Tupper,
(Sir Richard),	(Sir Charles Hibbert)
Johnston (Lambton), Simmons,	
Charlton.	Tisdale,
Sutherland (Essex), Northrup,	
Guthrie,	[DOT] Porter,
Morrison,	Gourley,
McColl,	Ward.
Fraser,	Bell,
Stewart.	Boyd,
Kendall,	Roche (Marquette),
Tarte,	Roddick,
Tolmie.	Kendry,
Macdonald,	Sherritt.
Sifton,	Calvin,
Fisher,	Maclean,
Gallery,	Leonard,
German,	Broder,
Lewis.	Wilmot,
Oliver,	Robinson (Northumberland),
Ross (Yukon),	Ganong,
Wallace,	Seagram,
Schell.	McIntosh,
Bruneau,	Morin.
Wright,	Halliday,
McLennan,	Glare,
Archambault.	Kidd.
Amendment	of Mr. Casgrain negatived ;
motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply,
Progress reported.
On motien of the Prime Minister, House adjourned at 1.15 a.m., Wednesday.

Wednesday, May 13, 1903.