1903-07-17

ARTICLE IN ' LA PATRIE '-QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I rise to a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I read in ' La Pa trie ' of yesterday, in the parliamentary l.etter, the following paragraph :
Quelqu'un qui se croit au. fait des allees et venues politiquoe, m'assurait tout k l'heure que Particle trSs blessant publiS dans le " News," a etd inspird par sir Wilfrid Laurier lui-meme.
Which I will translate as follows :
Some body who thinks that he knows what is going on in the political world assured me a moment ago that the most offensive article published in the * News ' has been inspired by Sir Wilfrid Laurier himself.
This matter came up incidentally yesterday, and I have only to say again that there is no foundation at all for this statement. Neither directly nor indirectly, in any shape or form, did I inspire that article. I never knew of its publication until my attention was called to it yesterday at three o'clock.



TREADGOLD CONCESSION.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF THE; INTERIOR, (Hon. Clifford Sifton). My hon. friend the leader of the opposition asked me a question the other day about an answer I had given to a question by the member for Pic-tou (Mr. Bell) respecting the action of the gold commissioner at Dawson City in regard to an alleged exemption of the Treadgold Syndicate from representation fees upon their claims. I find that there was an error in the answer which I gave. Though I do not think that it would be misleading, yet it was not strictly correct. To make the answer strictly correct it should have read :
The Order in Council of the 21st of April, 1902 find the former Order in Council of June, 1901.

The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. Raymond Prefontaine).: 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-THE GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: Before the Orders of the Day are called. I again press upon the attention of the Prime Minister, and upon the attention of the government, the extreme desirability of having their railway policy immediately brought down if w-e are going to have a railway policy brought down during the present session. Yesterday I asked my right hon. friend to give us some information as to the date. I asked him in the first place whether or not we are to have that policy during the present session ; and, in the second place, if we are going to have it during the present session, at what date may we expect it. It is perhaps only right to again remind the government that we have entered upon the fifth month of the session. In the expectation of all of us when we came here, the government measures would have been down two months ago, and had that been the case, we would have been very much further on with our work than we are at present. It is not to be expected that an important measure of that kind is to be brought down after the estimates are all passed and in the closing days of the session. My right hon. friend himself would not regard that as a proper course of conduct. Indeed, in the days gone by, his voice, and the voice of many hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, was raised in strong protest against the bringing down of railway subsidies in the closing days of the session. This is an infinitely more important matter than any of these subsidies which excited criticism in times past, and yet we are nearing what ought to be the close of the session, and we have not an intimation even from the government as to the date when their policy will be brought down. In all fairness to the House and to the country, my right hon. friend ought to tell us whether or not we are to expect that policy, and if we are to expect it during this session he should give some definite and specific assurance as to the date within which we may expect it to be submitted to the House.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: The request which niy hon. friend makes is not at all unreasonable, and I am quite willing to give him all the information which it is in my power to give him at this moment. I expect that we may be able to bring down a resolution with regard to the railway policy of the government some time next week, and perhaps early next week. I hope that we shall be able to take up the subject for discussion, perhaps not next week, but, if agreeable to my hon. friend, the early part of the week following ; because I suppose that when my hon. friend sees the resolution he would require some days before being prepared to take up the subject for discussion. Without binding myself absolutely ; if my hon. friend will renew his question on Monday or Tuesday next, perhaps I would he able then to give him an absolutely definite answer.


Robert Laird Borden: 1 may assure my right hon. friend that I shall certainly renew my question if he does not bring down the policy within a very short period ; and I am afraid I shall have to comment on the delay in that case a little more at length than I have done to-day.



OTTAWA IMPROVEMENT COMMISSION.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 223) to amend the Act of 1S99, respecting the city of Ottawa, read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
The MINISTER OB'1 FINANCE. I may say that this Bill is entirely a transcript of the resolutions with which the House has already dealt. There is no new matter whatever in it.
On section 2,
Mr. SPROULE.: What is the security for that ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The grants made by the government of Canada from time to time will be the source from which both the interest and the principal will be paid, under the security of this Act.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand that we give them $60,000 per annum, which they will have the right to spend, and they will have the right to borrow $250,000 more. ,


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, my hon. friend is mistaken. Out of the annual grant of $60,000 the commission will have to provide for everything. There is no increase in the amount of the grant, and no obligation beyond the amount of the grant.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me that this is the commencement of a system which is very like the grants to the Montreal Har-

bour Commission, to be added to from time to time, and that this whole grant will be taken up in the payment of interest, while in the end the Dominion will have to shoulder the debt and relieve the city of the expense.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: After the commission have reserved out of the annual grant a sufficient sum to pay the interest and the instalments of principal, there will be left a very considerable sum of money, quite enough to enable them to meet all the expenses of maintenance. There is not the least danger of the Dominion being called upon to pay any of this debt otherwise than by the annual grant.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is the usual history of these cases, and I have no doubt it will be the same with this.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I would remind my hon. friend that we have improved.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. minister, in'introducing the resolutions did not give any explanation as to what induced the government to continue this grant for a further period of ten years. My recollection is that he merely said that the government had arrived at the conclusion that whoever was in power at the end of ten years would do this, and therefore that we might as well do it now. Is it in the contemplation of the government to continue the grant indefinitely and make it a perpetual grant, or has that been considered ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My hon. friend is very kind in assuming that at the the end of this further period of ten' years we shall still be in office ; but I would not like to bank too much on that. Therefore, I would not like to say what will be the policy of the government some sixteen years from the present time. I do not think we ought to be so presumptuous as to say what shall be the policy of the- government sixteen years hence. Accidents might happen; though it is not likely, some of us might be out of office at that time. But, to be serious, the view we take is that by giving the commission this power now, they will be able to do things on a larger scale than they could do otherwise. They will be able to acquire land, and work out a larger and more comprehensive scheme of beautifying tfie city of Ottawa than they could if we confined them to the annual grant, out of which they could not make any considerable land purchases or carry out any very extensive scheme.


Robert Laird Borden: The same thing might be accomplished by increasing the amount and limiting the time. The policy seems to be to give them this grant for twenty years and to do nothing further.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, we take authority to say what they shall do.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Robert Laird Borden: I mean nothing further as to the continuance of the grant. As to the hon. gentleman being in power at the end of sixteen years, it is quite possible that that may be the case ; but it will be after a vacation of fifteen years, if we can judge the present indications at ail correctly. My hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) suggests after a prolonged period of rest. I would be inclined to add another adjective, and say after a prolonged and enforced period of rest.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Still, my hon. friend does justice to us to this extent, that he believes that, after a period of vacation, our record will be so good that the country will be only too glad for us to come back to offiee after its experience of lion, gentlemen opposite.


Robert Laird Borden: No, but because after a period of sixteen years the country will have forgotten the hon. gentleman's misdeeds.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Over what term does the original grant extend ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The original grant was for ten years, of which four years have now elapsed. We are extending it for another ten years, or sixteen years from the present time.


Mr. BIRKETT.: In view of the fact that the duties of the commissioners have been somewhat increased, that the grant of $60,000 is to be extended for a further period of ten years, and that the city is in reality contributing one-fourth of this amount, I think now is the proper time to suggest that the city should have another representative on the board. The city has only one representative on the board at present. I do not think it would be asking too much of the government to ask them to add the city engineer or the chairman of the board of works or some other representative of the city to the board in addition to the mayor.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If this were a joint fund, contributed to by the Dominion and by the city for some joint object, there would be force in my hon. friend's argument; but inasmuch as the whole benefit of this fund will go to the city of Ottawa, I do not think my hon. friend is likely to make a case that the interest of the city of Ottawa suffers. In whatever way this money is expended, it is primarily for the benefit of the city of Ottawa. Therefore it is not a case of ordinary partnership. It is a case where all the benefit goes to one of the parties.


Thomas Birkett: I can hardly agree with the hon. Minister of Finance in that. He must be aware that for many years the government paid $15,000 to the city ; so that to-day the city is contributing at least one-fourth of the $60,000. I think the gov-

eminent gets good value for the money. I do not see why Ottawa should not have an additional representative on the commission.


Mr. BELCOURT.: Besides the mayor of Ottawa, the commission is composed of Mr. Bate, chairman, Messieurs Jos. Riopelle, C. R. Cunningham and George O'Keefe, all leading citizens of Ottawa ; and last session three other gentlemen, Sir William Kingston, Senator Casgrain and Senator Frost were added to the commission. It must he admitted therefore that the $15,000 contribution of the city is well looked after by these five Ottawa gentlemen, including the mayor. In fact the administration of the whole work is largely in the hands of these gentlemen.


Thomas Birkett: Those gentlemen are, however, not responsible to the city for the expenditure of the $15,000 yearly, but only to the Dominion government.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: Every one of these Ottawa gentlemen is a large ratepayer and influential citizen, and in that respect responsible to the city, and the mayor is besides responsible in his official capacity.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Could the city of Ottawa remove them if it wished ?


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: No, of course not, because they are appointed by the government just as the mayor is. The mayor is appointed under the Bill and not by the city. The Bill provides that the mayor shall be exofficio a member of the commission, but he is appointed by grace of parliament and not by the city.


Thomas Birkett: I do not agree with my hon. friend in his contention that the mayor has not any right to sit.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I did not say anything of the kind. I would not say anything so nonsensical.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: As I understood the Minister of Finance the other day, in introducing his resolutions, this money is to be capitalized for the purpose of adding to the Rockliffe Park?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: And that he had options from Mr. Keefer and several other proprietors in that vicinity. Has he any objection to let us know what the options are. so that we may realize at once whether he is making proper investment or not. Let me draw the hon. gentleman's attention to another thing. There is a park north of the railway station, which is in a dilapidated and disgraceful state. There is another field near Sandy Hill, which was formerly a cemetery and from which sand is now being carted. The bones of the dead are exposed and it is in a most disgraceful condition, especially when we consider that it is right in the centre of the capital of the
Dominion. In view of the fact that the government is contributing largely towards the beautifying of the city, it should insist that this field be taken care of. It might be made a beautiful portion of the city, and as we are spending a good deal on these improvements, our wishes should to some extent be consulted by the commission and the civic authorities.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The commission will be glad to receive the suggestions of my hon. friend. My hon. frieml was slightly inaccurate in saying that we had options on certain properties. The go-ernment have no options, but I understand that the commission have received some.
I have been told the amount but have forgotten what it is. I have no reason to doubt, from information that has reached me, that the options are fair and reasonable, but I have advised the commissioners to take the precaution of appointing valuators, so that parliament will be fully satisfied. With regard to the parks, the city makes an annual grant to its own park committee for the maintenance of parks and some of these places to wuich my hon. friend refers. I quite agree that all these parks should be improved, and have no doubt that the commission and the civic committee will co-operate and lose no effort to carry out the suggestions of my hon. friend.


Thomas Birkett: I have every reason to believe that the cemetery lands were originally ordinance lands and, therefore, came under the Interior Department.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If that be the case, an arrangement could be made between the Department of the Interior and the commission for the improvement of this field, and no doubt the commission will be glad to take notice of the suggestion of my hon. friends and will endeavour to meet their wishes.


Mr. INGRAM.: We are all interested in this work as well as the citizens of Ottawa. In my opinion, it requires as competent an engineer to look after this work as is required for the city of Ottawa. I am informed that the gentleman who fills the position is not competent. At least he was not found competent while in the employ of the city of Ottawa. If hon. members of this House will take an hour some day and go through some of the streets which have been improved by this engineer, I have no doubt that they will come to the conclusion, if they have any experience, that these streets are not properly completed. Some steps should be taken to have a competent engineer appointed.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is the first intimation I have had of any doubt as to the competency of the engineer who is assisting the commission. I cannot undertake to give any judgment of my own.

because I have not tbe necessary knowledge. but tbe only impression I have received, from general observation, is that the work is very well done. However, I am not an engineer, and my opinion may not count for much. But the commissioners can have no Interest in appointing other than a competent officer, and I have no reason to doubt that if they found this man incompetent, they would appoint a competent man in his place.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have conversed with very competent men In this city, who are capable of judging, and after carefully looking over the streets, they assured me that these streets are not 'properly completed and would have been much better done had a competent engineer been in charge.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: By what authority is the mayor a member of the commission?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The original Act provides that the mayor shall be a member of the commission.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I ask that question because the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Bel-court) said that he was no more responsible to the city of Ottawa than any other member of the commission, but since the mayor is elected every year, the people have an opportunity of removing him, which they have not in the case of other members of the commission.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I did not say that the mayor is not responsible to the city of Ottawa, but that there is a distinction between the responsibility of the mayor to the city of Ottawa and the responsibility of the other members of the commission. I admitted there was a distinction. I pointed out that all the other gentlemen are responsible to the city, because they are influential and important ratepayers. Though their responsibility is not of an official character in so far as the city is concerned, such as that of tihe mayor, they are, by reason of their position as citizens, under great responsibility.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But that responsibility is simply nothing, because the city cannot remove them no matter how much displeased the citizens may be with their conduct. But, in the case of the mayor, they can replace him at the end of his term if they do not approve of what he has done.


Robert Laird Borden: None of these gentlemen stands in any representative capacity towards the citizens except the mayor, as I understand. And he is one of a commission of about seven, is it ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Eight.


Robert Laird Borden: If it be a correct view of the matter that one-quarter of this sum is actually provided by the city, because formerly it received that amount Hon. Mr. FIELDING.
I from the government in lieu of water rates and something of that kind, it would seem to me that the city of Ottawa, or rather the municipality of Ottawa, for that word makes my meaning a little clearer, should be entitled to some larger representation upon the commission than it has at present. According to the proportion it contributes, the city should have at least two out of the commission of eight, whereas now it has only one. Of course I do not overlook the fact that my hon. friend from Ottawa (Mr. Belcourt) has brought to cur attention, that these other gentlemen are citizens of Ottawa. But they are responsible only to the government. There is no responsibility to the municipality of Ottawa on the part of any of them except the mayor ; indeed some of them are not residents of Ottawa at all, though I make no criticism on that point.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I think the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) will be probably satisfied if I assure him that I for one, have not heard any one complain that tlie city was not sufficiently represented on the c mmission at this moment. I do not believe that there is a demand to-day in the city that there should be a larger representation of the city on that board. I believe that the citizens of Ottawa, as a whole, are very well satisfied with everything the commission has done, and with the plans for the future, so far as they have been made public. And. as representing the citizens, I take this opportunity of expressing their gratitude for what this parliament has done for the improvement of the city.
On section 4,	,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that when this Bill was under discussion before, some reference was made to the question of lumber piling in the city. I have not had an opportunity to read ' Hansard,' and so do not know what was said. But I would like to ask. as a matter of information, whether Hie government insist on having any voice in the management of the affairs of the city with regard to this and other matters affecting the government's interests. The government has so much property here that it seems to me only just that some understanding should be reached, on wise lines, and the government will not be doing their whole duty, now that we propose to assist in beautifying the city, if they allow a system to continue which, in all human probability will, sooner or latter, destroy the greater portion of the city, including the government property.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The discussion of the lumber piling question took place the other day, arising out of the debate on this Bill, but not relating to it. That is a matter of

municipal regulation with which the government have nothing to do. In this Bill, we deal only with public matters which have nothing to do with the lumber piling question. We do not by this measure undertake to displace the authority of the municipality in any way. There was some reference the other day to the Washington system, which, undoubtedly, has some merits. Washington is governed by the national government, which contributes one-half the revenues of the city, the residents contributing the other half. There is much to be said in favour of that system. But there is this difference between the two cities, that Washington is almost entirely a residential city while Ottawa is a manufacturing and industrial city, and, with its great water-powers must always be so ; and so the system will not apply to it so easily as it would to a residential city. I like the Washington idea and would be glad if we could expand this gradually and have a district of Ottawa, a national district, governed entirely under the direction of this parliament. There would be advantages in that system but I rather think the citizens of Ottawa are hardly ready for it at present. They might not view with favour any attempt to bring in such a system, even if we had power to establish it. It would be a matter of provincial and not Dominion legislation. It may be that there will grow out of this some system of that character, but, at present I do not see how we can go beyond the work of the commission and dealing with the particular class of Improvements for which this aid is granted.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me it would be the simplest thing in the world. We propose to give through these commissioners, a certain sum of money. In making that gift we can tack on any conditions we please. One of those conditions might well be that the city should rid itself of a great danger which exists at the present time and which must continue to exist unless the city acts. We can do that without impropriety and without adopting the Washington system. We are the givers, and can make what conditions we please.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: But our interest as a parliament and government is not greater than the interests of the individual citizen of Ottawa ; and surely we must trust the citizens of Ottawa, who have their own interests, their own rights, and their own property to protect. Surely we can trust them with what is after all a matter of municipal regulation. If these beautiful parliament buildings were burned down, great as the loss would be, the people of Canada are rich enough to provide another. But there are many citizens, who, if their houses were burned down are not rich enough to build new ones. Man for man, the interest of the citizens is greater than
ours, and I think we can trust them to regulate this matter.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Let that be granted, and the fact remains that we have greater power, and can exercise more control to make tiie city do what it should do, than any individual citizen whether rich or poor. ' We propose to give material assistance to the city and what we give belongs to the whole country. In making the gift we have the right to bring pressure to bear upon the council to do what they should do. We can make that a condition of this munificent gift. It is the proper thing to do, and the government has the power to do it.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Right and wrong are matters of opinion. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) speaks as if there were no difference of opinion on this subject. Yet. in this House the other day we had a clear difference of opinion expressed as to whether it was right or not to remove the lumber piles. I offered no opinion on that subject. But some citizens take one view and some another, and there is no absolute right or wrong in the matter.


Thomas Birkett: I may say to the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) that the representatives of the city of Ottawa have that matter under consideration. If it is left to the council I feel sure they will deal with it in a manner satisfactory, not only to the citizens but to this parliament.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They are not making much headway, if we may judge by the papers.


Thomas Birkett: You cannot always rely on what you see in the papers. The council represent the people, and the people can be depended upon to see that a proper settlement of this question is reached.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 220) respecting government and Post Office Savings Banks, read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
On section 1,
The Minister ot Finance and Receiver General shall hold, for the purpose of securing the repayment of deposits made in the government savings hanks and in the post office savings banks, an amount in gold or in gold and Canadian securities guaranteed by the government of the United Kingdom, equal to not less than ten per centum of the total amount of such deposits as such amount is ascertained from time to time.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Wheu were Canadian securities guaranteed by the government of the United Kingdom ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: That was done many years
6815.

ago, but of late years we bare not availed ourselves of it. We desired the endorsement of tbe imperial government many years ago for certain issues of securities when perhaps the credit of Canada was not as strong as it is now, and we gladly welcomed the greater security which came from endorsement by the imperial government. Some of these securities are still outstanding, and these are the class referred to in the Act.


Mr. MONK.: I would ask the Minister of Finance if he has had any occasion to give his attention to an idea that has been prevalent for some time of founding in this country local co-operative banks such as they have established1 with great success in England, Germany, Italy, Austria, France, Belgium, and even in Russia, banks with small capital that can be established almost anywhere in a country place. I am not familiar with the details of the system. The idea has been thoroughly studied here by M. A. Desjardins, and I think in the town of Levis, in the province of Quebec, a bank of that description has been established by that gentleman, who is the chairman of that co-operative savings and loan association, w*hich I aim told, is a great success in every way. I do not know if the Minister of Finance or any one in his department has had occasion to study that system of banking and to ascertain whether it would be feasible to allow the establishment of these local banks under the protection of the law.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: A short time ago my attention was directed to the subject by some members of this House, and also by a gentleman who is connected with the official staff of the House (Mr. Desjardins) and who is very familiar with the operations of the bank at Levis, and I believe has some connection with it. The system is a very interesting one indeed, and deserves study. I have given directions to have the matter inquired into and it may be that at another session we shall be able to give them some legal organization. For the present I cannot hold out the hope that we shall be able to do anything this session; but I can promise that during the recess the matter will be very carefully studied.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Geological Survey-exploration and surveys, printing and publication reports and maps, &c.; wages of assistant explorers, draughtsmen, clerks and others; purchase of specimens, books, instrumenrs, stationery, mapping materials, maintenance of museum, laboratory apparatus, chemicals and miscellaneous expenses; advances to explorers, $50,000.
['The rule is this, that when an hon. member does not want to concur in any amendment made by the Senate, he has to move a motion to that effect, giving the reasons for the disagreement, which are entered in the Votes and Proceedings.\nMr. GALLIHER moved that the amendments made by the Senate be now read a second time.\nOn motion of Mr. Eraser, the debate was adjourned.']
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: 
Frederick Debartzch Monk: It would be interesting to know what plan of survey and exploration is being pursued. In what direction are the officers going to operate this year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are fifteen exploring parties now in the field; one in the Yukon, one in the Peace River district, one connected with the boundary survey north of the forty-ninth parallel in British Columbia, one in the anthracite region of the Rocky Mountains, one in the Keewatin district, three in northern Ontario, one in the Bay of Quinte district, one in the Lake St. John district, two in New Brunswick, two in Nova Scotia, and two whose locations are not yet definitely decided.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Could the hon. minister tell us who is going in the party to the Lake St. John district, and can he give us a little more precise information as to the direction that the exploration is going to take ? Is it to be due north of Lake St. John or to the east or to the west ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I could not say. If my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) has any suggestion to make in connection with it I would be glad to consider it. The work has not progressed very far in so far as this season is concerned. ' The information comes from the director of the survey, and I am not quite familiar with the exact location or nature of the work they are doing.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is going to be in charge of the party ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: One of the technical officers. I cannot say which one.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is now at the head of the geological survey ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Dr. Bell.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Does he hold a permanent appointment ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How long has he held a temporary appointment?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Ever since the death of Dr. Dawson. .


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is there any reason why he should not be confirmed in his appointment ? I ask that because I know of him. I know that he has been a very long time employed by the department, and I believe has given great satisfaction. Is there any reason why the appointment should be only of a temporary character ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The question which my hon. friend has asked is a somewhat delicate one. Dr. Bell has been in the service of the geological survey for some fourteen years. He was at once appointed to take charge of the work when Dr. Dawson died. All I care to say - at this moment is that I have not felt like recommending his permanent appointment up to the present time. I anticipate being able to make some changes which I have had in mind for the last two or three years in connection with the survey and possibly the permanent appointment of Dr. Bell, might be facilitated by these changes. What I propose to suggest is that that which may more properly be called economic work, or work directly connected with mining, shall be separate from the other work and that change I propose to carry out by means of legislation this session, and I was proposing an appropriation for that purpose which will account for the difference in the appropriation which is before us at the present time. I think the question of Dr. Bell's appointment can be settled if the plan is carried out, but lam not prepared to say any more at the present time. The discussion of the scientific qualifications of scientific men is rather a delicate subject and I hesitate to say any more about it.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I mentioned the matter because I have known Dr. Bell for a great many years and although not in a position to judge of his qualifications he appears to have the reputation of having fulfilled his duties properly.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I would not like to be understood as even remotely suggesting that Dr. Bell's qualifications, as far as scientific knowledge is concerned, are not sufficient, but in addition to scientific knowledge the management of the survey and the executive work connected with it have to be considered and the various qualifications that are necessary to carry it out successfully have to be taken into account. I will be responsible for the appointment when it is made, and I shall try to feel that I have discharged- that responsibility properly when I do make it. But in the meantime I do not care to say any more about it.


Mr. KATJLBACH.: In what part of Nova Scotia is the geological party operating this season ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have not the exact location. The work of the parties is under the direction of Dr. Fletcher and they are now, I think, in the coal district.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria).: They are in the county of Cumberland.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: They have been in the eastern part of the province for several 214
years. I would like to have them visit the county I have the honour to represent, as it is supposed that there are in that county coal deposits of a very valuable character. We would like to ascertain positively whether such is the case or not, and if so would like to see these deposits of coal developed.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I did not hear my -hon. friend (Mr. Kaulbach) very well, but I understand him to suggest that it is desirable that some work should be done in the county of Lunenburg. I will be happy to note that and discuss it with my hon. friend.
air. KATJLBACH. My reason for making that request is in consequence of its being supposed there are deposits of coal in the county of Lunenburg and we are desirous of ascertaining whether there are or not, and if so, we would like to have that industry developed.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have at various times discussed the work of the survey in Nova Scotia with members in the House from Nova Scotia aud have received suggestions from them and to the best of my ability I have endeavoured to carry them out. I am not familiar enough with the particular localities to be able to speak of them by name from recollection, but as far as possible I will endeavour to carry out the work that can be done. I will be very happy to consider my hon. friend's suggestion.


Mr. BELL.: In reference to the director of the geological survey I understand that the hon. minister anticipates at an early day dividing the work of the department so as to constitute one section that will be more particularly devoted to work from an economic point of view and another which will be more purely scientific.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, more purely scientific and largely topographical.


John William Bell: I would be very glad to contribute in any way towards the appointment of Dr. Bell on a permanent basis. I have had a good deal of interest always in watching the work of the geological survey and in reading the annual reports, and it seems to me that the work has been carried on very efficiently in that department since Dr. Bell has taken charge. I would be only too happy to learn that the changes contemplated by the minister will enable him to make a permanent appointment in that case.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I may say to the committee something that I will say at greater length, when I make the definite proposition I intend to make, that while I have no doubt of the great value of the work that has been done by the geological survey, the result of my ob-



serration and supervision of tlie work during the last seven years has led me to the conclusion that sufficient attention has not been given to making the results of the work of practical value, and easily available to the public. The difficulty is that information which has been collected at such a vast amount of expense to the country is not in a position to be availed of by tbe ordinary commercial man or the ordinary prospector. If, for instance, I were asked to furnish a person coming from a foreign country who desired to invest in Canada with the information available on the subject of iron in Canada, I would be utterly at a loss. All I would be able to do would be to refer him to the library of the geological survey. There is no place now in which such information is collected. My purpose in organizing a mining branch is primarily to bring about the result that we will have in succinct and in somewhat popular form, all the information of a practical and economic character made readily available and tbe first duty of the branch would be to put that in shape. During last year I gave some instructions that have been carried out pretty fully in respect to one particular subject, for instance, the subject of nickel. Dr. Barlow, a very capable officer, has been devoting himself last year to preparing a report on nickel. When that report is out I think we shall have all the information required with regard to nickel in Canada, so that any one who reads that book and understands it will know everything that is to be known about our nickel deposits. If any one asks for information with regard to the economic value of metals we ought to be able to give him that information in the best possible form. That is the principal fault I find with the survey as it is organized at the present time. Of course it is very difficult to make changes; everybody who is connected with an institutioh is inclined to think that that institution is managed on just about the proper line, but after six or seven years experience I am clear in my opinion that a change is not only desirable but necessary if the country is to get value for the work it is doing.


John William Bell: It seems to me that a very great deal of valuable work might be done at once by simply compiling the material at hand. As it is now, one has to read through a lengthy history and here and there he might find a casual reference to this [DOT]or that mineral, and in that shape the information is not available for practical men. I am pleased to learn that the minister contemplates so arranging things that he will be able to place in the hands of those interested, information as to the different minerals to be found in our country. It might be well that a special search should be made with a view of discovering certain minerals; for instance, a thorough exploration of the iron areas of our province. If a geological officer is merely sent to a certain district Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
to examine it in a general way it cannot be expected he will achieve such valuable results as would be obtained if a trained officer were sent there with the special object of devoting his whole time to one particular subject. That would be of the highest importance in Nova Scotia with reference to its iron and coal deposits.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is quite in line with my own observation as the result of the work of the survey, and some of the best officers in the survey have practically said to me that while the general work of the survey should go on, yet at this present stage of development one of tbe most necessary things is to do that special work to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bell) refers. Dr. Barlow has been doing that in the case of nickel, and I think we should detail a competent officer to take up a certain mining field and to examine it thoroughly in its economic features and make a complete and full report about it, so that any person desiring to operate in that field would be in possession of all the information available. Such examination would be more detailed and complete than under a general survey. The coal fields of Nova Scotia are an illustration of tbe benefit of that kind of work. We have had Mr. Fletcher, who is well known to hon. gentlemen opposite, I suppose, and who has devoted practically his life to the study of coal in Nova Scotia. He would at once be detailed, with competent assistants, because he could not do all the work himself, to write a monograph on the subject of coal in Nova Scotia, and give us all the information he could get.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is in charge of the international boundary survey ?


Tbe MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Dr. Daly. He is a Canadian by birth originally educated in Canada and afterwards became a professor of Harvard University. He is a very capable man indeed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I find in the Auditor General's Report that $1,065 was paid to D. R. Fletcher, of Vermont, for granite monuments to mark the boundary line.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We mark the boundary line with iron posts on granite foundations.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Perhaps it is that these were purchased by the United States authorities and that we are bound to share the cost, but if they were purchased by ourselves there is very good granite near where those posts were erected and we might have got it in our own country.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The cost was divided, but I do not know exactly how.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is the officer specially charged with the purchase of instruments V


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The officer In charge of any instruments purchased in connection with the land survey, which has to do with the work of marking the boundaries, is not the same as the officer in charge of the purchase of instruments in connection with the geological survey. W. F. King, chief astronomer, has charge of all the boundary surveys, and any instruments required for that work would be purchased by him or on his recommendation. For the geological survey the acting director makes the purchases.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Then there are two separate officers to attend to the purchase of instruments. Is there any outside purchasing agent employed by the department ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, no such thing.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I mention the matter to the minister, because at the time the firm of Hearn & Harrison existed in Montreal, which has since gone into liquidaton, I heard something of a purchasing agent who resided in Montreal, and through whom all these instruments were alleged to he purchased, though he had no special knowledge of the subject.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am glad my hon. friend has brought that matter to my attention, because there is absolutely nothing in the suggestion. There is nothing purchased for the Department of the Interior except on the requisition of the deputy minister, and his recommendation is made out by himself upon the recommendation of the officer in charge of the survey. As to recognizing any body outside the department as purchasing agent, or go-between, or anything of that kind, there is absolutely nothing of the kind, in any shape, form, or manner ; and the same thing is true of the geological survey, where all instruments are purchased on the recommendation of the acting director.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I am very glad to hear the hon. minister give us that assurance. What are the principal firms in Canada with which the department deals for the pur chase of these instruments ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My deputy tells me that he thinks, speaking from recollection, that as a rule they have to be purchased in the United States. That is entirely so in regard to astronomical instruments.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Most of the purchases seem to be made in the United States, and I realize that for many instruments that may be necessary. But still I think that before dealing with American firms, it would be advisable to see if those who deal in similar instruments in Canada might not be able to furnish what the department re quired.
214}


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend may rely on this, that we do not buy anything outside of Canada that we can get in Canada of equal quality, unless by oversight. Even in cases where the prices are a little higher in Canada, we still patronize Canadian dealers. Speaking from my own knowledge, I do not think there are any manufacturers of scientific instruments of the quality and class referred to in Canada with whom we could deal. Any dealers in Canada would be simply small dealers, with only a few instruments on hand. Of manufacturers I am satisfied there are none. '


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister touched on a subject which I intended to make a little inquiry about. It is as to where one can get information most readily in regard to any particular mineral. The reason I ask the question is this. A gentleman came here with the view of finding where our iron deposits were and the nature of those deposits. I endeavoured to get the information for him, but found it almost impossible to get any. Is there any way in which that information could be got without much trouble ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTER iw . That is a matter which has been brought to my attention constantly for some years past. Our information, while in some respects very full, is in such a condition that it cannot be got at. In that respect my hon. friend is as well off as I am. If a gentleman came to my department and asked for information about iron, all I could do would be to call an officer to take him to the library of the geological survey, and show him the books in which he" could search ; and the probability is that he would not know muoh more after he got through than he did before. To remedy that defect would take some time ; but I am going to suggest a change with that object in view.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I sent this gentleman to the library ; but after searching through it, he said that life was too short to try to get the information from such an imperfect source, and he was afraid it was of little value to him. I thought there would be a complete list of the geological reports in the library, and some index kept up-to-date, so that one could ascertain at once where any of these minerals could be found, and in what volume they could be found. He said further, that even though he could get the information in these geological reports, it was very meagre. It might say whether the ore was magnetic iron or bog iron or sulphurous iron ; but it gave very little information beyond that as to the relative quantities of each, as to whether the deposits were large or small or as to the state of development. In all these respects this gentleman, who was from Pittsburg, said the geological survey was very im-

perfect; it was almost impossible to get any intelligent idea of it without a great deal of work. It seems to me that that could he remedied without very much trouble or expense, and I would suggest that the minister devise some way to overcome it, because it is a matter of importance, especially in view of the fact that our mineral deposits are attracting so much attention abroad, and that they are a valuable source of re-'*1'nue to the country.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would like to make a suggestion to my hon. friend with reference to this item. ' I have received letters from different parts of the province of Quebec, requesting me to go to the geological department and try to obtain specimens of mineral, vegetable and animal life ; and I must say that in that department every effort is made to give us satisfaction. I think it would be of great use in the education of our people, if the minister could see his way clear to giving instructions to the exploring parties going out each year to secure as many specimens as possible, iu order that there should be gome for free distribution. In the province of Quebec we have ten or fifteen colleges maintaining natural history museums. It would be very easy, in most cases, for the officers, when proceeding with their explorations, to secure these specimens and reserve a certain quantity for the educational establishments who would make a demand for them. If that could be done without too much difficulty, the government could in that way enrich most of those educational establishments and diffuse knowledge throughout the country of its resources.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not see any serious difficulty in carrying out the suggestion of my hon. friend. To some extent it has already been done, but perhaps not as systematically as it might have been. I shall endeavour to carry out the suggestion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: From time to time we have had discussions regarding the propriety of building another museum, but have not heard much about it lately. Has anything been done lately in that connection V the museum building we have is quite inadequate.


Mr. LOGAN.: I intend bringing this matter up when we are on the Public Works estimates, but in the meantime, as my hon. friend from Grey has introduced it, I should like to emphasize what he has said regarding the inadequacy of the present building. If hon. members would only visit the Geological Survey on Sussex street, they would be convinced that the building is a national disgrace, while at the same time they would be proud of the collections within its walls. Unfortunately, we cannot do justice to the many valuable specimens collected. Some most valuable Can-Mr. SPROTJLE.
adian mineral exhibits are stored away in boxes or on high shelves, obscured from sight, instead of being exposed to view. This state of affairs should not be allowed to continue. I would urge every member of parliament, who has not visited the Geological Survey, to do so, so that when we come to discuss the Public Works estimates, they will be able to give their views on this matter.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have no dissent to offer to what my hon. friend has said. No one can doubt that we require a suitable building with the least possible delay. We intended proceeding last year, but there were differences of opinion regarding the site, and as this building will be a national museum, the question of site is an important one. The subject has been lately discussed by my colleagues, and I have no doubt that my hon. colleague, the Minister of Public Works, when his estimates are down, will make a full statement.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) has referred to a very important subject. There are some valuable collections in this country, and I think perhaps the Department of the Interior have been approached on the subject of purchasing them. It would be well for the department to secure these valuable collections, which are to be found throughout the country, and I trust the hon. gentleman will lose no time in doing so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has the government yet decided on the site ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It has been definitely decided to construct the building and the delay has been due to the difficulty of deciding about the site. It has been suggested that the building should be erected in the park, and then other sites have been suggested. I am not in a position to make any statement, but no doubt the Minister of Public Works will do so. We hope to commence this year and will push the work forward with all rapidity.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I understand that some _ surveys were made with regard to locating coal in Prince Edward Island last year. Have the reports been furnished ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, I will bring down the report.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that there was fi geologist sent down to the Sudbury district, where it is said there is coal. Has the government any definite information regarding that ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The work of the geologist sent out to the neighbourhood of Sudbury had reference only to deposits of nickel. His report will be available shortly and will be printed

separately. I do not remember any report about coal in Sudbury.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I saw an item in the paper to the effect that the government had detailed a special officer to look into that question.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In the Sudbury district ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Somewhere near Sudbury-in the nickel region.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think the report is incorrect. There is no work of that kind done near Sudbury.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: May I ask who it was who recommended the work of surveying for coal in Prince Edward Island ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This was done on the recommendation first of the hon. member for East Queen's (Mr. MacKinnon).


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: A large expenditure was made by the local government a year or two ago just about the time of the elections there by this same gentleman. A large hole was bored, but without any result except that, possibly, the hon. gentleman gained some few votes by the distribution of the money. I cannot understand why, after a failure of this kind such a short time ago, the hon. Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton) should undertake this needless expense in connection with his department, when he should have all the facts at his disposal. I would like to know a little in advance whether the minister is going to continue to dig holes just before the elections in the near future ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My knowledge of the geology of Prince Edward Island is not very extensive. I can only say that I received a communication from the hon. gentleman (Mr. MacKinnon) asking that this work be done. I referred the matter to Dr. Bell, and he recommended the work, and it was done accordingly. As to the details, I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lefurgey) will have to talk that matter over when the hon. member for East Queen's is here.
Mr.i LEFURGEY. I would like to have the hon. minister bring down the report at as early a day as possible.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will bring it down at once.
To provide for the salary of a geologist to the International boundary survey from July 1, 190?, to June 30, 1904, $2,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is there any report from this geologist ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, he makes his report every year. It will be found embodied in the usual publications of the survey.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it in one of the two large volumes given to each member of the House ?


The MINISTER OH THE INTERIOR.: Yes, the regular report of the survey. Dr. Daly is the geologist, and it is to his report that I refer :
To provide for plotting and compiling of surveys, plans, maps and utilizing field-notes, &e., (persons having technical or professional qualifications may he paid out of this vote at rates exceeding $400 per annum, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, or any other Act), $5,500.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase of $1,800 in this item. Will the hon. gentleman please explain ?
The MINISTER OF; THE INTERIOR. This vote is to enable us to catch up with work now in arrears. The maps were not got up as promptly as they ought to be. Since Dr. Bell took charge, to his credit be it said, he has endeavoured to get the work up to date, and this is a special vote to enable him to do so. He reports to me that this vote of $5,500, being an increase of $1,800 over that of 1902-3, is necessary because the vote of last year was insufficient to pay the salaries of draughtsmen employed for the fiscal year. Five draughtsmen are engaged, two at $3.25 a day, two at $3 a day, and one for eight months at. $2.75 a day, this officer being for the other four months engaged in field work and paid out of the general vote. This vote is practically to enable us to employ draughtsmen and other technical officers to finish maps and plans so as to make available for the public the work the survey has already done.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the work tabulated in any way by these men, or do they simply do the work from the field-notes ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They work from the field-notes of the technical officers.


Robert Laird Borden: The work the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Sifton) spoke of a while ago would be further work in connection with analysing the results and putting them in tabular form.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is different.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand. But that work of tabulating has never been done before ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No. The only work of that kind that we have done has been the work that Dr. Barlow was doing last year. The work to be paid for by the vote now under discussion consists in putting in shape to be available the work of the technical officers in the field. The other work consists in collecting from the different reports of the survey

during the years it has been in existence the information which is embodied there, analysing it, casting out what is obsolete, perhaps making re-examinations to supplement the information where it is defective, and putting the whole thing in shape where it will be practically valuable to the ordinary reader.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If you are collecting this information, it can be done by these officers?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No. This is for technical office work necessary to make available the work done in the field.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But that gives no information. The hon. minister employs two classes of men, and he proposes to take a vote of $1,800 more than last year. That means that he will employ additional hands. What are those additional hands to work at ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When an officer goes into the field and makes an examination of a certain district he makes his field-notes of the work he does. When he comes back he extends those field-notes, and then upon those field-notes are drawn the geological maps of the districts which he has surveyed. The preparation of the geological map is the work necessary in order to make available the work which the technical officer has done in the field. That is the foundation of the usefulness of the survey. That has been allowed to get behind, and we are trying to catch it up.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How far are you behind now ?	,


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The large map of the western section has been got out, that of the eastern section we expect out very scon. The arrears in connection with the general work of the survey, I think, will probably be overtaken in a year.
Immigration-Further amount required for immigration, general expenses to purchase tents, &c., $65,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend from west Toronto (Mr. Clarke) had some remarks to make on this subject. I think this is the last item on immigration, and I call his attention to that fact.	,


Mr. CLARKE.: I want to call the attention of the minister to the case of Mr. Murray, who is an immigration agent stationed, I think, at Glasgow, or some part of Scotland. A complaint is made against him that he went out of his way to secure men to take the place of strikers at the Kingston Locomotive Works. Some correspondence took place, I believe, between the department and the Trades and Labour Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
Council of the Dominion, and the answers of the minister do not seem to be quite satisfactory, and I have been asked two or three times to bring the matter to his attention. On the 13th of October last, I received a letter from Mr. Kennedy, who is the corresponding secretary of the Toronto District Labour Council, which is as follows :-


To E.   F.@: Clarke, M.P., Toronto :
At the regular meeting of the Toronto District Labour Council, held September 11th, charges were presented to the effect that Mr. H. M. Murray, Canadian immigration officer at Glasgow, Scotland, had been co-operating with Mr. H. Tandy, of the Canadian Locomotive Works, Kingston, Ont., by advising machinists to go to Kingston, Ont., to secure work from the above firm, where the machinists were on strike. The matter was referred to the executive of the council to make a report. The executive met Monday evening, October 6th, and the sworn affidavit of Mr. H. Hunter, of Glasgow, was presented, together with copy of letter written by Mr. Murray to Mr. Tandy, introducing Mr. Hunter, which confirmed the charge as made to the council. The executive thereupon presented the inclosed resolution to the meeting of council held on the 9th instant which was unanimously adopted.
On behalf of the council, I ask your immediate support to make right the injustice done.
I remain.
Yours respectfully,
D. W. KENNEDY, Corresponding Secretary.
Follows a copy of the resolution passed by the Toronto District Labour Council, October 9th, 1902 :
That, whereas, it has been brought to the attention of this council that Mr. H. M. Murray, of the Dominion immigration service at Glasgow, Scotland, has been acting as agent for the Canadian Locomotive Works at Kingston, Ont., in securing machinists to take the places of the striking machinists at the above works ;
Therefore, be it resolved. That this body do enter its most emphatic protest against such conduct on the part of this or any other officer of the government as an unwarranted interference in a controversy with which he has, and should have, no connection, and as being most unfair, not only to those directly concerned but to organized labour in Canada generally.
And be it further resolved, That in the opinion of this Council the Hon. Clifford Sifton, the Minister of the Interior, should take immediate steps to have all correspondence between Mr. Murray, of Glasgow, Scotland, and Mr. Tandy, of the Canadian Locomotive Works, produced before the House of Commons, and if it can be proven that Mr. Murray was in any way aware of the existing trouble in Kingston, that we do most emphatically demand his removal from office.
And be it further resolved, That a copy of the foregoing be sent to the Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Hon. Clifford Sifton, Hon. William Muloclt, R. L. Borden, M.P., E. F. Clarke, M.P., E. B. Osier, M.P., A. E. Kemp, M.P., W. R. Brock] M.P., W. F. Maclean, M.P., and Archibald Campbell, M.P.
D. W. KENNEDY, Corresponding Secretary.

On the 16th of March, I received another communication from Mr. Kennedy, as follows :
Dear Sir,-I have been instructed to again ask you to do this council a favour by making inquiries about the dismissal of Mr. Murray, immigration officer at Glasgow, Scotland, before the House of Commons. I herewith inclose you a copy of reply received from the Minister of the Interior regarding the Murray affair. The council, at meeting held March 12th, objected to the diplomatic language in the minister's letter, and the delegates ask you to demand the meaning of the words which I put in quotation marks in the minister's letter. I remain,
Yours respectfully,
D. W. KENNEDY, Secretary.
This is a copy of the letter received from the hon. gentleman :
Ottawa, 4th March, 1903.
Dear Sir,-I have your letter of the 2nd instant. Mr. Murray was removed from the charge of the Glasgow office ' because it was thought that the duties could be more efficiently performed by another member of the staff.'
' He will be otherwise employed.' A general review of the conduct of the office led to the conclusion above referred to. I am not in a position to say ' that any one circumstance could be held to have been the deciding factor in the action taken.'
Yours faithfully,



To D.   W.@: Kennedy, Esq.,
59 Edward Street Toronto, Ont.
Mr. Kennedy has asked me to draw to the attention of the hon. gentleman these words which he claims are diplomatic, and he wants an explanation of their meaning :
' because it was thought that the duties could be more efficiently performed by another member of the staff;' 1 he will be otherwise employed;' 'that any one circumstance could be held to have been the deciding factor in the action taken.' These are the sentences that he has put within inverted commas.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think my hon. friend would, himself find no difficulty in knowing what that meant.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The secretary of the Toronto Labour Council is very anxious for an explanation. There is a very serious question of principle involved In this matter. I do not think it should be the duty of immigration agents to interfere actively between employers and employees in Canada. I think if they do interfere they should state all the facts, such as are alluded to in the affidavit which accompanies this correspondence, and which was made by one of the men who came out to Canada through the instrumentality of Mr. Murray, and who was not made aware of the fact that labour troubles existed here or he never would have come. I had better read the report of the executive committee for the information of the hon. minister, so that the
matter can go on record, because I think we ought to have an expression from the hon. minister as to the policy which the hon. gentleman pursues and which he instructs his agents in the old country to pursue respecting this very matter. The executive committee of the Toronto District Labour Council made a report to the council. The complaint in regard to Mr. Murray's conduct was referred to the executive committee of the council and they took evidence, deliberated upon it and made a report as follows :
Office of the ' Toiler ',
October 17, 1902.
Executive Committee.
Your executive committee met in The Toiler office. Monday, September 29, to hear evidence substantiating the charge laid before the council by Mr. Boland, of the Machinists' Union, to the effect that Mr. Murray, immigration officer of the Dominion government at Glasgow, Scotland,
' had been acting as agent for the Canadian Locomotive Works of Kingston, Ontario, in securing machinists to take the places of the strikers at those works.'
The following members of the committee were present :	President Cox, Delegates Simpson,
Gardner. Acheson, Chilton, Vodden, Henderson and Kennedy.
Delegate Boland appeared before the committee and presented a sworn affidavit of Mr. H. Hunter, who had been advised by Mr. Murray to come to Canada to work for the Locomotive Company, at Kingston, Ont.
A copy of a letter was also presented, written by Mr. Murray, to Mr. Tandy, manager of the Locomotive Works, stating that Mr. Hunter was looking for work as a machinist and from the tenor of a letter written by Mr. Tandy a vacancy no doubt existed.
The following is a copy of the affidavit and letter as submitted to the committee.
Province of Ontario, County of York,
To wit :
I, Hugh Hunter, formerly of Glasgow, Scotland, machinist, do solemnly declare that I worked at my trade as machinist in Scotland up to and inclusive of the twenty-seventh of August, 1902. On or about that time I formed the determination of coming to America to settle, and in pursuance of that intention called upon Mr. H. M. Murray, Canadian emigration officer at the Canadian government agency in Glasgow, for the purpose of obtaining information as to conditions in Canada, Mr. Murray told me the best place in Canada for me was Kingston. Ontario, and it was a good place to settle down in and good wages were being paid there. He showed me two letters one from H. Tandy, of the Canadian Locomotive Works. Kingston, Ontario, inquiring for machinists, and the other from McGregor, Gourlay & Go., of Galt. Ontario, and strongly recommended me to go to Kingston. I asked him if there was any strike or labour difficulty pending or existing at the Canadian Locomotive Works in Kingston, and he assured me there was not. In pursuance of the information thus obtained I came out to Canada, only to find that Mr. Murray had misrepresented the facts to me, as there was a strike pending in Kingston in the Canadian Locomotive Works, both at the date of my inquiry from Mr. Murray and at the date of my arrival in Canada. Mr. Murray gave me a letter of introduction to Mr. Tandy, in the words and figures following, that is to say :

Canada government agency, head office lor Scotland. 52 St. Enoch Scriaro, Glasgow ; address for telegrams, ' Maple, Glasgow.' Telephone No. 671.
August 27, 1902.
Dear Mr. Tandy,-This will introduce you to Mr. Hugh Hunter, of Glasgow, who goes out for the purpose of obtaining a situation in your works. From the tenor of your last letter I have no doubt you have a vacancy.
Yours faithfully,


H. M. MURRAY.
[Stage Direction]
H. Tandy, Esq.,
Canadian Locomotive Works, Kingston, Ont.
And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true, and knowing that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath, and by virtue of the Canadian Evidence Act, 1895.
(Sgd.) HUGH HDNTER.
Declared before me at the city of Toronto, in the county of York, this 9th day of September, A.D. 1902.
(Sgd.l W. T. J. LEE,
A commissioner, &c.
Upon the foregoing evidence your committee are unanimous that Mr. H. M. Murray has used his position as an officer of the government to help the Locomotive Company, of Kingston, Ontario, to secure machinists to fill the strikers' places.
We would therefore recommend the following resolution as a protest from this council :
That, whereas, it has been brought to the attention of this council that H. M. Murray, of the Dominion immigration service at Glasgow, Scotland, has been acting as agent for the Canadian Locomotive Works, of Kingston, Ontario, in securing machinists to take the places of the strikers at those works.
Therefore, be it resolvSS, that this body enter its most emphatic protest against such conduct on the part of this, or any other officer of the government as an unwarranted interference in a controversy with which he has and should have no connection, and as being most unfair not only to those directly concerned but to organized labour in Canada generally ; and be it further,
Resolved, that in the opinion of this council the Hon. Clifford Sifton, Minister of the Interior, should take immediate steps to have all correspondence between Mr. Murray, of Glasgow, Scotland, and Mr. Tandy, of the Canadian Locomotive Works, produced before the House of Commons, and if it can he proven that Mr. Murray was in any way aware of the existing trouble in Kingston, that we do most emphatically demand his removal from office ; and he it further
Resolved, that a copy of the foregoing be sent to the Right hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Hon. Clifford Sifton, Hon. Wm. Mulock, R. L. Borden, M.P.: E. F. Clarke, M.P.; E. B. Osier, M.P.; A. E. Kemp, M.P.; W. R. Brock, M.P.; W. F. Maclean, M.P.; and Archibald Campbell, M.P.
That, I think, is all the correspondence I have, and I would like to ask the hon. minister if he proposes to comply with the request made by Mr. Kennedy, and produce the correspondence that may have taken place between Mr. Murray and Mr. Tandy, and also between the department and Mr. Murray ? I should be glad, too. if the hon. gentleman felt disposed to make a statement in regard to his policy in connection Mr. CLARKE.
with matters of this kind, involving disputes between employers and employees, and to know whether it is the intention of the department to permit immigration agents in the old country to interfere witli or defeat the purposes of strikers in troubles between employers and employees. I do not desire to take up the time of the committee. I have stated the case as briefly as I could, and I would like to have a statement from the lion, minister as to what his policy is.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no objection whatever to bringing down all the correspondence to which the hon. gentleman has referred ; in fact, I regret that the hon. gentleman did not move for the correspondence at an earlier date so that we could have it before us now.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I took the opportunity of mentioning two or three days ago to the hon. minister that I would bring the matter up.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am not complaining on the ground of surprise, but if my hon. friend had moved for the correspondence we would have had it before us now.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman has this correspondence himself. The request is made in it that the correspondence to which I have referred should be brought down, and I inferred that that was sufficient notice for bringing it down.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no difficulty about bringing correspondence down. I will have it prepared at once. My recollection of the circumstance to which the hon. gentleman refers is that when the complaint was made it was referred to Mr. Murray for his reply. My recollection of the conclusion at which I arrived, after examining the papers and hearing what Mr. Murray had to say, was that there was no positive proof that Mr. Murray did know all the circumstances of the case in Canada at the time when the event took place, but I also came to the conclusion that he had been, perhaps, a little careless in connection with the matter, and possibly that if he had been a little more alert he would have known. I think the circumstances are such that if he had been a little more alert and inquired into the circumstances this difficulty would not have arisen. The policy of the department and the instructions which the officers of the department have are that they are, under no circumstances, to promote the immigration of mechanics especially, and they are not, under any circumstances, to take part in promoting immigration from the old country of persons being imported for the purpose of taking the places of strikers.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: What kind of reasoning has induced the minister to instruct his agents that mechanics are not to

be brought into this country. Is it because labour unions demand they shall not come.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not necessarily, but because it has been the recognized view of the department that the expenditure of public money should not be incurred for the purpose of bringing mechanics to Canada. The justification of our expenditure lay in the fact that we were bringing people here who would engage in the development of our agricultural lands. I do not believe that any other policy could be sufficiently carried out. There are differences of opinion about the matter. My hon. friend (Mr. Hughes) has one opinion, fhe member for west Toronto (Mr. Clarke) has another, and the member for centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) expressed a very positive opinion the other day that we wanted 10,000 mechanics here, and that we wanted them right off.


Mr. BROCK.: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not know that my hon. friend would say that if it should be the policy of the Immigration Department to bring them out, but he certainly expressed the opinion that we wanted mechanics here. I may say, however, to my hon. friend (Mr. Hughes) that the labour unions do not dictate the policy of the government ; no one class of the community has the right to dictate the policy of the government, and yet I think it would be impracticable for any government to carry on a movement whereby mechanics would be brought in to compete in the labour market with the mechanics who are at present residing in Canada. I think that policy is impossible ; I do not think it can be carried out, and I certainly would not undertake to carry it out while I entertain the views I entertain at the present time. My hon. friend will understand that to err is human, and we have to work with human instruments, and perhaps sometimes a zealous immigration agent may not be as careful as he ought to be. But I can assure him that so far as the department is concerned the instruction which we give, and the views which we inculcate upon the officers of the department in that respect are distinct and definite and well understood. So far as Mr. Murray is concerned, I cannot say more than I said in the letter.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The complaint is that the letter is couched in very diplomatic language.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Well, it was intended to be couched in diplomatic language. The hon. gentleman will understand that when a minister is dealing with an officer who has been found not to be quite up to the job, it is difficult to express it in just the language which will accurately convey the idea. The history of
Mr. Murray's appointment is as follows : When I organized the work in Great Britain Mr. Murray was a steamship agent at Glasgow and had been in the service of steamship companies there for about twenty years. He was recommended to me as a very highly efficient and capable man of considerable experience and energy, and upon these recommendations, I paid him a high salary ; $2,000 a year. I was in Glasgow myself three years ago, and I saw Mr. Murray's work, and I conversed with other Canadians who had been there. His work was inspected by higher officers of the department and as a result, shortly after this occurrence took place, I came to the conclusion that he was not quite fit for the position there and I reduced his salary to $1,200 and put him in a less important place. If my hon. friend has employed men he probably has had occasion to do the same thing. The man who is now in office at Glasgow is Mr. Walker, a gentleman who was appointed to the service on the recommendation of the Minister of Customs. Mr. Walker is a newspaper man from Brantford, and possibly my hon. friend knows him. He is a very capable man, and I believe he will be a satisfactory officer.


Mr. WILSON.: What salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 


Uriah Wilson: And a house ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No house.


Mr.   CLARICE@: There are some other matters in connection with immigration to which I wish to draw the attention of the minister. For the past three or four sessions I have quoted in this House statements made by United States officials respecting the quality of the immigration which is coming to Canada. I have drawn the attention of the minister again and again to the necessity for making a careful examination of our immigrants, because I think that quality must be taken into account as well as quantity ; and I may congratulate the minister that within the past six months steps have at last been taken to give effect to the suggestions that have from time to time been made from this side of the House, by the appointment of medical officers at the ports where these immigrants enter. But the statements are reiterated, at least in so far as they affect the fiscal year ending the 30th of June last, that the quality of the immigration coming into Canada is not such as we might congratulate ourselves upon. We should aim to emulate as far as we can the efforts of the United States government with regard to immigrants. We are congratulating ourselves upon the success which is attending the efforts of the minister and his officers, to increase the I number of immigrants that come into Cana-

da, and comparisons have been made of the numbers now coming, with those in previous years. But we must not forget that now-a-days the United States government is spending as much money to examine into the quality of immigration into the United States and to prevent undesirable immigrants from landing, as we are expending to bring immigrants to Canada, and that in view of the stringency of the regulations which exist on the other side it is a notorious fact


Mr. ROCHE (Halifax).: How are they endeavouring to restrict immigration ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: By the most rigid medical examination.


William Roche: Is it any different now from what it was at the American seaports ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Most decidedly. It is more stringent, and they have felt it necessary during the past few years to place this country in the humiliating position of having dozens of special immigration officers in Canadian cities, winnowing and sifting the immigrants that arrive in Canada destined for the United States, and declaring that such will be permitted to go into that country and that such will be refused entrance and may remain here without regard to what may become of them. I say that condition of things is disgraceful, and it is evidence to me that the quality of immigrants who come into Canada with the object of getting into the United States, is not such as we should desire to retain here.


William Roche: What is the difference in the inspection at the American seaports now from what it was before ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am trying to tell the hon. gentleman and the committee that the examination has become so rigorous, that it is alleged by American officials that thousands of immigrants from Europe who could not pass the United States inspection, come by way of Canada, the United States being their destination, in the hope that having resided in Canada for some little time, and being made familiar with the ropes, if I may use that expression, they can find their way across the border into the United States. The American government, becoming apprised of that fact, were obliged, in order that the same rigid inspection might take place along the Canadian border, to appoint dozens of officers. They have now I do not know how many dozens of officers extending along the border, all the way from the eastern seaboard to Seattle, and they are appointing more this year, so that the same rigid examination may be given to immigrants going to the United States via Canada. They do not hesitate to refuse permission to enter the United States to immigrants who cannot Mr. CLARKE.
pass their standard of examination ; and these immigrants, at all events, until recently, have been left on our hands, and have been in some cases a source of considerable expense either to municipalities or to the country generally.


Mr. SCOTT.: Has the hon. gentleman any definite information ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: I will give the hon. gentleman definite information if he will keep his seat for a few minutes.


Thomas Walter Scott: And the places where they may be found ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: There is not a place in Canada where the United States government have officials, where they cannot be found by the dozen. If the hon. gentleman will look into the matter himself, he will find abundant evidence of what I am saying. I think it is my duty to draw the attention of the hon. minister to these statements, so that he may investigate them, and take means to remedy the evil complained of, and to have the same rigid examination at our seaports as takes place at the seaports of the United States. The document I am about to quote from is Senate document No. 62 :
Report of the Committee on Immigration, United States Senate, on the Bill (H.R. 12199) to regulate the Immigration of Aliens into the United States, with Statements before the Committee in the First and Second Sessions of the Fifty-seventh Congress.
This document, I presume, can be obtained in the library. At any rate, it is open to the inspection of the minister or of any other hon. gentleman on either side of the House who desires to peruse it. I was so struck with many of the statements made in it that I thought I would be derelict in my duty if I did not draw the attention of the hon. minister and of the country to the condition of things which is alleged to exist, or to have continued to exist until the 30tli of June last. Mr. Watchorn was examined before the committee, and at page 439 of this document, I find this statement made by him in reply to a question of the chairman :
Now, turn if you please, to page 7 in the report of the immigrant inspector in charge of Canadian border inspection for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1902, and you will see that out of 4,900 immigrants which we have examined in ten months at various points along the Canadian border, from Sault Ste. Marie, Mich., eastward to St. Johns, N.B., 2,028 were found to be of the inadmissible classes, and of that number 496 were suffering from loathsome or contagious diseases, 812 were paupers, and there were 10 insane, 8 idiots, and 5 ex-convicts.
Hon. gentlemen may try to explain away these statements, and I would be very glad if satisfactory explanations could be given of them.


Thomas Walter Scott: What became of them ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Let the hon. gentleman inquire of the immigration officers here. I cannot tell what became of them. . Those in humble circumstances, I presume, did not return. I think it is a serious matter, and a matter worthy of being inquired into. Further on, at the same page, the same gentleman makes this statement:
When you come to realize, gentlemen, that with the very best force of inspectors the government can employ at these stations, yet out of the 600,000 immigrants coming into all the ports of the United States those 600,000 furnished a less number of cases of loathsome or contagious diseases than the 5,000 who came in, or attempted to come in, over the Canadian border, you will see that the work on the Canadian border is simply an auxiliary to the work at the American ports ; and if you are going to exempt the transportation lines which carry them in from the penalties which attach to the steamship companies bringing them to the ports of the United States, it is a complete nullification of the work.
I think hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House will admit that this is a very serious statement, and that it ought to be investigated ; or, if it has been, the hon. minister or his officers ought to give some explanation with regard to it.


Thomas Walter Scott: What is the date of that report ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: December 20, 1902 :
In the Senate of the United States, December 20, 1902.
Ordered, that Senate Report No. 2119. Fifty-seventh Congress, first session, together with the hearings before the Committee on Immigration, in the first and second sessions of the Fifty-seventh Congress, be printed as a document, and that so many extra copies he printed as will not exceed in cost the sum of $500.
Attest :	CHARLES G. BENNETT,
Secretary.
That is the attest on the inside page of the cover. Further on, at page 441, in reply to a question from Senator McLaurin, of Mississippi :
Senator McLAURIN, of Mississippi. Then, Mr. Watchorn, is it a fact that the vessel landing at a port of Canada is compelled to pay the same amount of head tax that a vessel landing immigrants at one of the ports of the United States pays ?


Mr.   WATCHORN@: If the people they carry go to the States, they do.


Senator McLAURIN.: If they are coming to the United States ?


Mr.   WATCHORN@: Yes, sir.
That is to say, these Canadian or British ships that are bringing immigrants to Canada for the United States have to pay the head or poll tax which the United States government imposes on ships bringing immigrants to United States ports. They collect from the vessels coming in a sufficient sum to maintain the immigration department. Further on, speaking about these steamship lines, Mr. Watchorn says :
I ought to say that the lines coming to New York, Philadelphia and Boston have medical examinations in Europe.
They do not like to have to carry back a great many people and swell their record of deportations, and as a matter of self-interest they examine medically at all European ports and weed them out. They say, 'You cannot go,' and ' You cannot go,' and so they stand them off, twenty and thirty, sometimes a hundred on a ship, and the very moment they stand them aside, the lines that run into Canada gather them up and put them on a ship to Quebec. So it comes to pass, as you will find if you turn to the Commissioner General's report, on page nine, column five, that there is a very small percentage of loathsome or contagious diseases rejected at American ports. You will see what a very small percentage they represent of the whole number carried. Now, turn to page 11 and look at the list of the border ports until you get down to Montreal, and you will find that of 737 total rejections at the Montreal office no less than 388 were suffering from loathsome or contagious diseases. In other words, not one-tenth of one per cent of those hi ought to American ports are diseased, while as many as sixty per cent of those brought to Canada are suffering from these diseases.
I would suggest to my bon. friend from Western Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) tbat be should pursue an investigation as to wbat became of these 737 immigrants^ who were rejected at Montreal by the United States medical officer. It would be a fruitful subject of inquiry, because at that time there was no provision made, as I understand, for their examination by an officer of the Canadian government. These officers, I understand, were appointed in December last.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: During what year were these rejected, and what were the causes of rejection ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: You will find in the Commissioner General's Report page 9-I presume for 1902-that not one-tenth of one per cent of the immigrants brought to American ports were diseased, while as many as sixty per cent of those brought to Canada were suffering from trachoma and other loathsome diseases. Surely we have no reason to rejoice in the increased number of immigrants coming to our shores, if the unfortunates are diseased before getting on shipboard on the other side.
The Commissioner General being fully aware of these facts

That is of the quality of immigrants coming into Canada

Sent me over to Chiasso, Italy, where all this sifting out work is done, to see how they managed it. I found that when an immigrant comes to Chiasso. and to the Switzerland border, he is there examined medically, just as thoroughly as at any port of the world. If he is found to be diseased the agents says to him * it is utterly useless to sell you a ticket to New York, and T must sell you a ticket to Quebec. You cannot get into the United States any other way hut you must bide your time in Canada and take your chances and get over the border. He singles these people out and puts

a certain label on the lapels of their coats. If it is a red and white label it signifies to the agents at the European ports, when they arrive there that in no sense must you sell this man a ticket to the States, but put him on ship going to Quebec.
At page 443 he goes on to speak about the smuggling of these immigrants from Canada to the United States. There have been plans and schemes devised at Montreal to run these immigrants into the United States clandestinely or to smuggle them in :
In all cases where an immigrant is brought over by a smuggler you do not accord that immigrant the right to go back to Canada and receive medical treatment, as they do when they originally apply, but take him at once through a warrant issued by the Commissioner General, to New York and send him back at the government's expense to Europe. We are sending back batches of them every week in this manner.
Let me now read something which, 1 think, is not a matter we may congratulate the hon. minister upon. It has reference to the law which was passed respecting the inspection of immigrants :
The chairman said1 : I wish you would touch on the efficiency of the new Canadian regulations as to immigration.
They have passed a law in Canada by virtue of our work on the border because we /have, as it were, stemmed the stream and it is now flowing back to them. They, for the first time in their history, have taken cognizance of it and have passed a law to prevent people of this kind, from coming into Canada ; but have not yet adopted sufficient machinery to put it in operation, and hence they keep coming. As it stands now. Senator, I get hold of a dozen or twenty of these men who are diseased. I write a letter to the commissioner of immigration for Canada and I call attention to their act and tell him there are twenty people now in the vicinity of my office suffering from loathsome or contagious diseases. Then he sends au officer, who comes and takes them away and nuts them on a ship and sends them out.
The Chairman. Would the Canadian law be effective if there was machinery to execute ?
Mr. Watchorn. Yes ; it would, because it would keep this class of people out.
The Chairman. Are its provisions modelled on the same features as ours as to those ineligible to be admitted ?
Mr. Watchorn-Only so far as pertains to disease. They will not keep out paupers. They want immigrants too badly for that. Here is the certificate as it is issued by our force at the port of arrival in Canada.
Senator McLaurin, of Mississippi. Is that the same certificate printed in your report ?
'Mr. Watchorn. Yes, sir. There is a place, you will observe, provided at the bottom for the signature of the inspector who takes up the card and the date on which he takes it up, I think it attests amply the efficiency of the border force when I tell you that out of 26,000 certificates of that kind issued last year we picked up 25,980 of them.
So careful and exact is the examination of these American officials, so thoroughly and systematically do they do their work, that out of these 26,000 permits, which they Mr. CLARKE.
gave people coming through Canada to enter the United States, they were able to collect _ at the border no less than 25,980.
My hon. friend from Lennox has handed me a letter, which I will read in this connection, to show the necessity for even more stringent regulations. I do not think that the fact that a man is poor should deprive him of the right to come into Canada and make a home for himself and family, but people who are diseased should not be allowed to enter and be a burden on our taxpayers. We should not be put to the expense of maintaining them in charitable institutions weeks and months until they have quite recovered. That class of immigration ought to be discouraged, but no effective steps have been taken to bar it out. The hon. Minister of the Interior should impose a poll tax on each immigrant that our steamship agents bring to Canada and keep that money for the purpose of meeting the necessary expense of treating diseased immigrants. If there should be no diseased immigrants, the money could be refunded. To show that the class of immigration that is still coming in is not as desirable as it should be, let me read a letter addressed to my hon. friend from Lennox:
Montreal, July 15, 1903. Uriah Wilson, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons, Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-Allow me to extend to you my thanks for drawing the attention of the people to the matter of immigration.
I have been trying for the past year to arouse some interest in our city, which by the way is the chief sufferer in regard to this evil. If it would do any good I would be only too glad to travel to Ottawa to have an interview with some of the members who are interested in this subject.
I have the honour to remain,
Yours truly,


RICHARD LANE.
[Stage Direction]
It is hardly fair that the philanthropic and benevolent people of great centres, such as Montreal, should have the care and maintenance of diseased foreigners imposed on them as well as the care of their own indigent and sick. I think that this letter is quite sufficient to justify me in making a strong statement as to the desirability of putting a stop to the immigration into Canada of people suffering from disease.
There is one more extract which I propose to submit to the committee for the information of the hon. gentleman. It is taken from the statement of M'\ A. S. Anderson, passenger manager, American Line International Navigation Company, Philadelphia :
In order to show that the old influences are still at work in Europe to Induce aliens to evade the United States immigration laws by taking the route via Canada, I will read you a letter from our passenger manager in Antwerp, dated May 24th, 1902 :
' I Inclose a memo, of our agents, Blank & Co. It shows that the rate of the Beaver Line

[Stage Direction]
is francs 125 to Quebec, francs 137 to Montreal, and to New York probably higher. Our rate to New York is francs 125. I further inclose a statement of passengers that passed here. Considering that our rate is cheaper, our boats faster, superior, and sail direct, the question comes up. Why are they so successful 7 The question is answered by the memorandum, in which Blank & Co. say : ' We give to the Beaver Line only the deficient passengers.' That is the secret of the Beaver Line's .large carryings. All the passengers who have -been rejected at an Italian port, or who are deficient, or who have reasons to take advantage of the 1 Landing without inspection,' and prefer the certainty to the risk, travel by the Beaver Line.'
The immigrants referred to as passing Antwerp for the Beaver Line during April and May number 1,113.
I commend this to the attention of the hon. minister and the committee. I do not vouch for the statements contained in it, but this is an official document, a report of the evidence taken before the United States Senate Committee. I think I was in duty bound to bring this to the attention of the hon. minister and of this committee, because it is absolutely essential, now that the United States are discouraging immigration, and uow that the tide of immigration is coming our way-and I hope that the tide of eligible immigrants will increase in volume every year-that every reasonable precaution should be taken to see to it that the diseased and criminal classes shall be kept out of this country; and any reasonable sum required should be voted, and I am sure will be voted, by this parliament, to attain that object. Personally, I am pleased to see that the hon. gentleman has already appointed special officers at Montreal and St. John-I think he included St. John-and Halifax. I hope that he will give instructions to these officers to redouble their vigilance, and that every reasonable step will be taken to prevent ineligible persons getting on board the steamships at the ports across the Atlantic. Prevention will be found to be better than cure; better prevent these people getting on the ocean steamship rather than have them deported or interned in Canadian hospitals for three or four weeks after they reach here. And, if the hon. minister adopts a more rigorous course than has been followed for several years past, when we meet again in this House we shall not find statements of this kind from the immigration officers of the United States, and will be able to congratulate ourselves that, while the stream of immigration is increasing, the quality is improving. I regret having been compiled to take up the time of the committee in reading these documents, but as I ga.ve notice the other day that I would bring this information before the committee, I must ask hon. members to accept that notice as my apology.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I cannot add much to what I have already
stated to the committee during the two or three days when this subject has been before us off and on. I can only say that, after looking into the matter last year, I appointed a medical inspector for the department to rigorously supervise the landing of all immigrants. The instructions given are of the strictest character. If any objection is made that the officer is not carefully and efficiently carrying out his instruction, l should be happy to make a thorough investigation; and, in view of what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) has said, without anything further, I intend to make a thorough investigation as to whether or not he is carrying out the instructions. I believe he is. I do not speak from personal knowledge, but I intend, in view of what has been said, to be able to speak from personal knowledge or as nearly that as may be possible under the circumstances. I may say that 89,000 immigrants have arrived at ocean ports since the medical inspector began his work in December, some 700 of whom had been either rejected or detained for treatment. That is as nearly as possible the proportion in the case of United States immigrants. The total number deported or detained at the various ports of the United States during the last year was 4,974, which bears about the same relation to their total number, 048,000, as 700 would to our total of 89,000. I find also, if I may be allowed to cite the witness whom hon. gentlemen opposite have cited against me, that the United States inspector at Montreal, who has lately been interviewed, says that our inspection is even stricter 1hrn that of the United States. So my hon. friend. (Mr. Clarke) will at least have some satisfaction in knowing that we are moving in the direction he suggests. I find that the United States inspector, whose name has been quoted in this debate a number of times, says that, while he has at times criticised the action of the Department of the Interior, he is bound to acknowledge that we have rejected proportionately more than the United States on account of the diseases mentioned.


Edward Frederick Clarke: More come this way.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: But he says that we reject proportionately more on account of trachoma. The hon. gentleman can hardly maintain that more are coming this way if his argument is, as I understand it. that diseased people seek to come through Canada to the United States.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That was his argument.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I pointed out that on the other side of the ocean, at Antwerp and these other ports of embarkation, intending immigrants who are not able to pass a satisfactory medical examination were not allow-

ed to embark on steamships bound for the United States ports, but were ticketed for Canada.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: But if they were ticketed for Canada and subsequently intended to go into the United States-for that is the whole burden of the report quoted by the hon. gentleman-there would necessarily be a large proportion of diseased persons trying to get in from Canada over the American border. I shall not argue the point ; but the hon. gentleman will know that the United States inspector himself in whom my hon. friends opposite appear to have great confidence, says that the inspectors of my department at the present time are rejecting more than the United States inspectors. I simply cite that as evidence of the fact that we are trying to make the inspection as thorough and careful as possible. We recognize the necessity of this, and I very cheerfully give my undertaking to the committee that everything possible will be done to have this work of inspection satisfactorily carried on.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Before leaving this matter. I would call the attention of the hon. minister to the charts which accompany the report of the Commissioner General of Immigration of the United States. I think if the hon. gentleman would prepare charts to accompany his annual report similar to those which are found in the appendix of the United States report, they would convey very valuable information to the people of Canada, and enable them to judge as to the quality of the immigration coming into the country.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend is referring to those charts in the report of the Commissioner General ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I want to say a few words which I intended to say the other night. I mentioned that the immigrants coming in were not of as desirable a class as we would like, and I understood that my statement was contradicted by the Minister of the Interior. My hon. friend from Montreal made reference to it as well, and I believe the statement he made was contradicted. I want to say that for the last few years our country is becoming literally overrun by a class of men who are little better than tramps, Russian Jew pedlars, Poles and Italians, with little packs that they carry about with them, are going all over our country. Many of them degenerate into tramps in a very short time ; and in our section of the country, at least, you cannot go in any direction without you meet these men, either getting off a train, or walking along the roads, going into houses, leaving the gates open, begging for meals. They have a little pack with them as an excuse for going from place to place. These men


Edward Frederick Clarke: are allowed to come in as immigrants. They are undesirable immigrants, because they do not belong to the industrial classes of the country. They make their living purely by deception in peddling, selling something which may be stolen in some other part of the country, and selling it for an exorbitant price to the innocent people who buy it. That is one class. Now, with regard to diseased immigrants who come in. The minister says that his department is entitled to credit for what it has done. It is true they appointed an inspector at the frontier last December, and if the country is receiving any benefit from that to-day, it is the opposition who are entitled to the credit and not the government. It is said that the inspectors stop these diseased people from coming in, and the minister said that the few who did come in were stopped at the border and treated until they were cured. He says that this is not an incurable disease and only requires a short time to be cured. I said nothing about this subject the other night, because there were others who desired to take up the time. I desire to say to the minister that every medical man knows that these cases of trachoma are practically incurable particularly when it reaches a chronic stage. Every medical man knows how hard it is, if not impossible, to cure it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Would the hon. gentleman give us some idea of the nature of the disease ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The disease is called granular inflammation of the eyelids, and when it continues for a long time it is almost impossible to cure. The minister told us the other night that he was assured by his officers that it was curable. Out of curiosity, I went out into the library and brought in an authority. I have here 'Swan-zy, Handbook of Diseases of the Eye.' He is a standard authority on this subject. Speaking of the disease of trachoma, he says of its prognosis :
At any period prior to cicatrisation of the conjunctiva an attack of purulent blennorrhosa is liable to come on. If not too severe this may result in a cure by absorption of the trachoma bodies, and should not be checked. If, however, the attack be very severe the eye runs dangers similar to those of an ordinary attack of purulent conjunctivitis. These dangers are less the more complete and the more intense the pannus.
On the whole, if the disease come under treatment at an early period, it may be hoped that vision will be retained in. a majority of cases, although a radical cure may be difficult or impossible.
Now, it is a fact, as every medical man knows, that when these cases become chronic, it Is difficult and almost impossible to cure them. Thousands of them are never cured.
These cases require to be under constant or intermitting treatment for long periods, often ' for years, and are extremely liable to relapses.


William Roche: Wliat is the date of that work ?
Mi-. SPROULE. If it would be of any use to the hon. member to know, it was written in 1897. He will see that it is very recent, and if he has any curiosity to see it, I will send it over to him. It is later, I presume, than the date when the hon. gentleman got his education in this particular line. I want to say that I have seen many cases of immigrants coming in, and havfe treated some of them, and I know how difficult it is to treat this disease successfully. Immigrants so affected are dangerous to those who are associated with them, either in the wash room or in the sleeping room, or otherwise. Up to last December practically there was no effort made to stop these people coming into the country, but owing to the incessant criticism of the opposition, the government have at last appointed an inspector at Montreal to keep them out. Now the hon. gentleman cheers himself over the statement of the American officer who said that the Canadian officer was rejecting more than the Americans were. But he forgot to tell us that the Americans rejected them at two points; first they rejected them when making the selection, a place where the Canadians do not reject them. Therefore, there is a larger percentage of diseased persons coming into Canada than of those going to the United States, and the rejections are consequently more numerous here than there. 1 say this medical man was sent none too soon to Montreal. Another word with regard to immigration. I was in Winnipeg a short time ago, and I saw that the preparations made by the government for receiving and handling immigrants are entirely inadequate. There is not enough room provided for their accommodation.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Which port ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: At Winnipeg. I am not complaining so much of that, because the number coming is so large that It might be quite impossible to expect much from that, but I am only drawing attention to it so that some remedy may be found, and I think it ought to be found at the earliest possible date.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 192) to enable the city of Winnipeg to utilize the Assiniboine river water-power.-Mr. Puttee.	...
On section 10,
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WOn^S. When this Bill was under consideration before, I thought, and a good many members of tlie committee agreed, that it was not desirable that the city of Winnipeg should have the right to assign and transfer their franchises, &c., which are being granted by this Bill. Since then it has been represented to me by the representatives of the city that the Bill would not be of much use to them unless they had that power. I have thought that instead of striking out the clause it would be better to add the following to section 10.
Provided that before any such assignment or transfer is made or executed the city shall secure the approval to the assignment or transfer by the Governor in Council. In such approval the name of the company or person to whom the assignment or transfer is to be made shall be specifically set forth.
The Governor in Council may hear the parties and decide whether the transfer or assignment should be made.
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended, agreed to.
On section 11,	*
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WvjitKS. In view of the question raised by the hon. member for Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart) I have asked for advice and have given my attention to the clause providing that the sections of the Railway Act which relate to expropriation shall apply to this Act. I have been unable to see how they could proceed with any work at all unless they had the power to expropriate, and as their works are subject to approval by the Governor General in Council it is probable that the interests of all parties concerned would be protected before any action would be allowed to be taken by the city.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Most of the lands they would take would be government property any way.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: So I understand.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READING.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 202) to incorporate the Missionary Society of the Church of England ill Canada.-Mr. Russell.

[Stage Direction]
On the Order being called for :
Resuming adjourned debate on the motion of Mr. Campbell, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, for the House to go into Committee
[Stage Direction]
of the Whole on Bill (No. 104) to Incorporate the Brockville and Sault Ste. Marie Railway Company.-Mr. Dyment.
Mr. TAYLOR.: The hon. member for Cornwall (Mr. Pringle) who is a member of the sub-committee on this Bill, requested me to ask that it be allowed to stand until next Wednesday evening, when he would be present. I have consulted with the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Gallilier) who I think has charge of the matter and he is agreeable to the suggestion.
On motion of Mr. Hughes (Victoria), the debate was adjourned.


COLUMBIA RIVER IMPROVEMENT COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
The House proceeded to consider amendments made by the Senate to Bill (No. 150) to incorporate the Columbia River Improvement Company, Limited.-Mr. Gallilier.
Mr. GALLILIER.: The Senate has made an amendment to clause 7 of this Bill, but if it be amended at all the amendment should apply to clauses 7 and 8. The Bill says : ' The company may acquire or operate,' and the Senate have inserted the words ' On the 'waters mentioned in section 7 hereto.' Section 8 covers the waters of the Columbia river and navigable tributaries not referred to in section 7, and on which we are asking to construct piers and dams. The amendment'should apply to section 8 as well as to section 7.


Mr. SPEAKER.: The bon. gentleman will have to move that he disagrees in that amendment and stating the reasons why he disagrees. Perhaps it would be better to defer the motion for the second reading of the amendments until some other day.


William Alfred Galliher: If I understand you aright, Mr. Speaker, you wish me to prepare a motion, pointing out why I cannot consent to the amendment suggested by the Senate ?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The rule is this, that when an hon. member does not want to concur in any amendment made by the Senate, he has to move a motion to that effect, giving the reasons for the disagreement, which are entered in the Votes and Proceedings.
Mr. GALLIHER moved that the amendments made by the Senate be now read a second time.
On motion of Mr. Eraser, the debate was adjourned.



[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Further amount required for immigration, $98,114.06.
Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.: 


Mr. BLAIN.: I understand that the hon. minister is reducing the number of agents at work in the United States. Will he give an explanation of the work they have been doing ? I mean those to whom commissions are paid.	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Some years ago, when we were starting the work in the United States, endeavouring to get it under way, and to get as much interest taken in it as possible, it was considered advisable to appoint a large number of sub-agents on commission. These men received no salary, but they were paid a commission on the number of people they sent. The persons directly despatched by their efforts signed certificates, which were collected later on by the officers in the Northwest, and forwarded to the department here, and the commissions were paid on these certificates. As the work progressed and the number of salaried agents increased, and they became more fully acquainted with the work, it was considered advisable to cut off the appointment of these sub-agents on commission. Some time last year the inspector reported that it would be advisable to discontinue their appointment, and all the sub-agents were removed and their appointments cancelled. Since that time, some forty or fifty of them, who were considered to be of some value, were re-appointed. The other day I gave a list of the subagents who had earned any commissions, with the amounts they had earned. That is about the way the matter stands at present.


Richard Blain: Will the minister explain how it comes that when he had a large number of agents in the United States who were receiving commissions on settlers coming into Canada was less than it is now, when he has fewer agents ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have already explained that our officers went to the United States and picked out men willing to accept these appointments, for the purpose of infusing interest in the work and getting it under way. Later on, when the work was developed, finding that a large number of the sub-agents had not done anything to justify their appointment, their appointments were cancelled. The time spent in this work, however, was not lost. In the first year that we appointed agents, only 700 or 800 people came. Since that time the number has increased. The appointment of these sub-agents, so far as we can learn, did not result in any particular benefit to the country, and that is the reason why we discontinued them except in a few cases. They did not cost the country anything, however, because they did not earn any commissions.


Richard Blain: Some did earn commissions. I notice that one, William Ritchie, received $4,559.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He was only paid on the number he got.


Richard Blain: I understand that the commission was $3 per head for men over eighteen years of age, $2 per head for women, and $1 per head for children under eighteen. The minister having cancelled the appointments of all the sub-agents, does he purpose continuing that policy next year ? Looking over the report, it would seem as if these local agents in the United States simply came to a central point and got into communication with the railway company, and received their commission on the people coming from the United States to Canada without having done any work at all. Does the hon. gentleman purpose continuing next year those he reappointed ? If I understood him correctly, some few were reappointed on the same work last year.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I can only say that it depends on the cir-sumstances of each case. The territory in which we are doing our work is very large. If the inspector thinks any particular man should continue in his appointment, he is kept on. It is altogether likely some will be kept on because they happen to be men who are doing^good work. At the end of another year, our inspecting officers may report that it is not desirable to continue them in office any longer.


Richard Blain: I notice in the Auditor General's Report that one or two are appointed for each state in the union. I would understand by that that a man would not be permitted to do any work outside of his own territory. In the Auditor General's Report, one man last year was paid $1,979- N. Bartholomew. In what part of the United States did he work ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Somewhere between the St. Paul office and the Omaha office.


Samuel Hughes: Did he not work in Iowa ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think for a part of the time.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that a lot of those men were dismissed from office. There is a large number here. $48,701 were paid in bonuses.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I gave the name of every agent the other day in the discussion, and how much he earned.


Samuel Hughes: In the item under consideration I notice a sum for the purchase of tents, $05,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: These were tents obtained from the Militia Department to supply additional accommodation in Manitoba and the North-west Ter-215
ritories. The price paid was $25 each, which is the contract price.


George Taylor: Why should the Department of Militia charge the Interior Department more for these tents than new ones should cost 1 You can buy the bell-tent at the factory in Ottawa for $16.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I suppose they charged what they paid themselves.


George Taylor: Then they paid a great deal more than they can be purchased for. The bell-tent sells wholesale at $16.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Perhaps my hon. friend from Victoria knows something about the price.


Samuel Hughes: I do not know about the bell military tent, but $25 is about $8.75 more than the regulation price.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I shall have to ask a rebate.from the Militia Department.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would like to ask if the agents in the United States are to be continued during the ensuing year ? Seven or eight of them are paid office expenses and maintenance which, with their salary, amounts to between $5,000 and $6,000 a year each.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is to be no change.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Referring to some very interesting data given by the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Clarke) regarding medical inspection, I quoted a day or two ago a newspaper report to the effect that Dr. Faber, inspector at Quebec, is an American practitioner, whose right to practice in Quebec has been called in question by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of that province. He seems to have been appointed by a steamship company to look after immigrants suffering from trachoma and detained in the city of Quebec. How did these immigrants get through quarantine ? That question is one of considerable interest because we have in the city of Montreal people suffering from trachoma, and one would like to know how these immigrants got there. Are the officers appointed to inspect the immigrants all qualified practitioners and what are their salaries ? And where are they placed in order to perform that inspection. I might add that many immigrants remain in Montreal and are a very sickly lot indeed, even without this affection of the eyes. Many of them are by no means satisfactory as regards their moral conduct. Those who succeed in gaining a living in tire city of Montreal are, most of them, simply parasites. Those who work stand in the way of our workmen getting a fair wage, because they work for almost nothing. They do not live at all as our labourers do,



they work for very low wages. That is the reason, probably, why this immigration is so very unpopular among the working classes of Montreal. It would be impossible to find a single labour organization in the city of Montreal that would approve of the kind of immigrants that have been passed through that city within the past five or six years. I should be glad if the minister Would give us some information with regard to this class of immigrants.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The procedure, when the immigrant lands at the ocean port is this :	The ship is
boarded first by the quarantine officer, who is an officer of the Department of Agriculture, not of the Department of the Interior. The quarantine work is carried on under the direction of Dr. Montizambert, director general of public health. When the Inquiry with regard to the disease of trachoma was brought up, we were advised by the Department of Health that trachoma was not a quarantinable disease. So, the ship is not quarantined because of any of the passengers being affected with trachoma. Nor are passengers necessarily prevented from landing because they have that disease. The passengers are all inspected before they land, by our medical inspector, and in any case where the medical inspector thinks the disease is curable, the party is detained for treatment. Before they are allowed to depart from the House of detention at the ocean port they must be cured to the satisfaction of our inspector. The medical inspector of the department, Dr. Ellis, of St. John, gets a salary of $2,000 a year. He was appointed last year, and the general instructions Issued to him are to examine immigrants arriving at the port, all Canadian bound immigrants and also all immigrants proceeding direct to the United States, but not passed by the American inspector. He is to order the deportation of all American bound immigrants afflicted with loathsome or contagious disease. If the immigrant is suffering from some simple, non-contagious disease, or if he has only some slight physical defect not sufficient to prevent him from earning a livelihood in the ordinary way he is not excluded. In case of parties suffering from curable disease who have sufficient to pay their expenses, he may permit them to enter a hospital, where they are to be kept until they are cured and there is no danger from infection. In case of immigrants who are unfit to proceed upon their journey and who refuse to enter the hospital, he is to order their deportation. So, hon. gentlemen will see that, so far as the instructions are concerned they cover the case fully, and I think it will be found that since the present machinery has been provided under the direction of Dr. Ellis the inspection has been pretty thorough. My hon. friend will remember an interview that I read this after-Mr. MONK.	'i
noon in which the American inspector at Montreal said that the medical inspectors of our department were more strict than his own.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Sifton) will excuse me if I insist a little on this point. My excuse is that I do not believe in the system of assisted immigration at all. I have to bow to the policy which my hon. friend has adopted, but I believe in selected immigration, and I think this assisted immigration is not only a great mistake, but is going to give us a great deal of trouble before very long. Therefore, my hon. friend must be indulgent with me if I ask a few questions. A great many of these Immigrants reach Montreal on board ship, which comes up from the gulf to the port of Montreal. They disembark there and take the train for the west. Has the department an inspector at Montreal, and, if so, who is that inspector ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The inspection has been carried on under the direction of Dr. Ellis without the appointment of a permanent officer until lately. Dr. Stewart is the permanent officer now.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Does the inspector attend upon the arrival of every batch of immigrants to perform his duty of inspector ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Those are his instructions. Our inspector is not Dr. Stewart, the eminent physician, with whose name my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) must be very familiar. At least I do not think it is. The appointment was recommended by one of my colleagues in Montreal. I know the inspector simply as Dr. Stewart.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Has the inspector a regular salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think he is paid by fees.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It would be very desirable to have an inspector in Montreal who would attend upon the arrival of every ship containing immigrants. My hon. friend will bear in mind, speaking of the disease which has been mentioned so often


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The number of immigrants who land at the port *<of Montreal are comparatively few.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: We see a great many of them there.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The principal landing places are Halifax. St. John and Quebec. The number landing in Montreal, is, comparatively speaking, very few.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: We see a great many disembark from the ship at Montreal.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I mean the steerage passenger's to Montreal

are very few. It would be hardly worth while to have a salaried officer there.


Mr. COCHRANE.: I find the name of a Mr. W. J. White in the Auditor General's Report. Is he an immigration agent ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He is general inspector of immigration agents in the United States. He inspects the work of the agents and supervises the work of advertising and the preparation and circulation of literature.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: It seems to me that living must be very high In the United States. I see this gentleman is allowed for sixty-one days, at $10 per day for living expenses. What part of the United States is he in ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. White has had large experience in connection with the subjects of advertising and dealing with the press, and he was taken to England by the deputy minister for the purpose of overhauling the immigration work in England. He was given an allowance of $10 a day for his expenses while he was there.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: The inspector of immigration agencies had to be taken to Great Britain. What did you want him there for 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. White was taken to England by the deputy minister because a considerable portion of the work which the deputy minister undertook to do there was to secure proper attention to that work by the British press, and in the matter of approaching the press and securing proper press recognition, Mr. White is a specialist. In the Department of Immigration we had no other officer so competent, and I am bound to say he was very successful.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Does it cost any more for a specialist to live in England than to live in Canada 7 That is almost enough to support the minister himself, $10 a day. Then we have $384 for fares. Does the department supply all their officials with valises and traps of that sort 7 If they do, I would like to get a job. I do not think the people of this country should be called upon to pay these men extravagant salaries, to pay them $10 a day for their living allowances, and $384 for fares. I suppose they travelled in pullmans and staterooms. It may be very nice for ministers that have political friends to attend to, but I think the electors of this country will take it more seriously. We have sums all through the Auditor General's Report. There is another gentleman here, I would like to know if he is an agent, too, in the Immigration Department, a gentleman by the name of W. W. Cory. What is that gentleman's business 7 * 215}


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: His duties consist in inspecting the government offices in the Yukon district and the land titles offices in the North-west Territories.	-


Matthew Henry Cochrane: There is a gentleman that gets


Thomas Walter Scott: Order. The hon. gentleman is not dealing with the item before the committee.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I think I was, Mr. Chairman. I leave it to you to decide.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am willing to give the hon. gentleman all the information I can about Mr. Cory.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: There was an understanding the other evening between the members of the opposition and the minister on the last item, that he would give them a free hand to discuss any item under immigration. A good deal of the discussion this evening has not been directed to immigration items, but knowing the arrangement that was made, I have given members a free hand to discuss any question.


Thomas Walter Scott: I point out that the hon. gentleman is travelling entirely outside of that arrangement, because he Is dealing with an official who is not an officer of the Immigration Department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Go away back and sit down.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I might give the information now as well as any other time. What does the hon. gentleman want to know 7


Matthew Henry Cochrane: What salary does Mr. Cory get 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have explained his duties. He makes an annual inspection of all the offices in the Yukon district and the North-west Territories. He has to travel from one place to another, auditing the accounts and disbursements, and generally reports upon the methods under which these offices are carried on.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I am willing these gentlemen should have a sufficient salary, but I object to the amounts they receive for expenses. Now Mr. Cory, in the Auditor General's Report

Mr1. SCOTT. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask for your ruling on the point of order I raised. The hon. gentleman is discussing an official who is not an immigration official, and has nothing to do with that department.


Peter Macdonald: Of course the committee will remember that notwithstanding the arrangement that was made, it is expected that each member will confine his remarks to questions in reference to immi-

gration. It would not be In order, and would not be according to the arrangement, to discuss any question outside of immigration. Therefore I call attention to the fact that we expect every one to confine his remarks to some phase of the immigration question.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I had your ruling before that I was in order, and the Minister of the Interior said he might as well give the information now as any other time.


Peter Macdonald: The Minister of the Interior is not presiding, and 1 am bound to carry out the arrangement that was made the other evening between the Minister of the Interior and the members of the committee. If the minister feels disposed to violate the rules I shall have to call him to order.


Mr. CLANCY.: I thought it was well understood, and I think the Minister of the Interior understood, that any item might be taken up on the question of immigration. The other items were permitted to go through with that understanding. But now, under your ruling, there was no such understanding, and we must be confined in a definite manner to the matter of a single item in immigration alone. I must say that by your ruling we must conclude that the arrangement has been absolutely ignored.


George Taylor: I must disagree with what you have just stated, Mr. Chairman, that we can only discuss immigration items. I think the item we are now discussing includes a great deal more than immigration, and we are perfectly justified in discussing any question which comes under item number thirty.


Peter Macdonald: When I said the committee were only permitted to discuss questions of immigration, I meant all the questions that come under the department of the Minister of Interior. But they cannot discuss any question that is outside of his department, no matter what the Minister of the Interior says, because he has no power to give privileges to the committee outside of his own department. As long as the discussion is confined to dealing with the various questions of the Department of the Interior, it will be allowed.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I have to inform you, Mr. Chairman, that you are out of order, because this gentleman is in the Department of the Interior. We are talking about Mr. W. W. Cory, page L-41 of the Audi-to General's Report. This Mr. Cory, I understand, is inspector of land agencies in the North-west and In the Yukon. For that service he is paid $2,400 a year, a very liberal allowance. Then this gentleman for bring expenses in the North-west Territories and In the Yukon gets $620. He gets for fares $384. I suppose he is travelling in luxurious coaches and pullman cars, and all that sort of thing. Not only that, but he pays $31 Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER,
for a valise that sost $25 and some other traps that he has to carry around cost $8.50. Then he gets a $3.50 leather purse. An ordinary purse will not hold his money. I suppose it so bulges out that he must have a leather one to hold it. He gets $20 for tips. What is that for ? I have had several definitions of that on this side of the House, but I have not received a ministerial explanation. Are the electors to pay their money out for gentlemen that are travelling around the country, for valises and three or four bags of different kinds, for a $3.50 leather purse and for tips to the amount of $20 ? This gentleman's trip cost us $4,204.10. I think that is a pretty serious matter.


Mr. HEYD.: You might have called it even money.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: What is my hon. friend saying ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: I was merely saying that my hon. friend might have called it even money and knocked off that ten cents.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I wanted to be particular, just like the hon. gentleman was when he protested against the Indians being inspected by a doctor. Here is the amount of money that is paid to one man, and I think this is something that should receive our consideration. Why should it cost $10 a day to live in the North-west Territories ? I know the hon. minister feels away down in his heart that there must be a fraud in connection with that. No man, if he is living as he should and if he is honest in his report, would pay $10 a day for living in the North-west Territories. I think it is shameful that the country should pay that amount of money to any man. It does not cost a man of ability any more than it costs ordinary mortals, and if there are men who want to live as high as that, I think it is better that they should be discharged, because I am satisfied this is a fraud that is perpetrated on the public. Why should we pay for this gentleman's valises and purses? I should think he could pay for his own, and I do not think the hon. minister will justify this. His second epistle might, but I do not think be would.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The truth about Mr. Corey is that be gets his actual expenses while in the North-west TeiTitories. In the Yukon he gets $200 a month for his living allowance. The living allowance of the ordinary officer in the Yukon is $150 a month. This gentleman is an inspector travelling all the time, and from the best information we can get we believe that $200 a month is no more than a fair living allowance for him While in the Yukon. It would be quite Impossible for the government to get along without an inspector. We have a large number of officers handling large sums of money, and the only check -the government has is the report of the in-
<3857

specter, who goes from office to office and makes a detailed report in regard to the affairs of the offices he visits. We must have a competent man for that duty.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Do you fit out all your officials for such trips as tills ? Do you buy their clothing, too ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No ; we do not buy their clothing.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Do you furnish all your officials with valises and bags ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The department is required to furnish a despatch bag for the official papers that they require to carry.


Mr. MORIN.: I would like to say a few words In regard to immigration from the western states and from Europe. I do not pretend to find any fault with what the hon. minister has done or what he is doing, but, at the same time, I may say that the hon. minister does not go at that kind of business as I would do it myself. I do not think he is going at it in the right way. In the first place, we all know that it is a poor class of people who leave Ontario and Quebec and the other provinces, men who have not sufficient means to go to the west and who get no help from the government at ali. The Canadian Pacific Railway gives them some help, but I never knew a case in which the government helped any of these people. If they have done so, I have never heard of it. We all know the poor class of people are the men who desire to go to the west. The rich class of people do not go there, and if you ask a wealthy man to migrate to the west the reply you will get would be : I am not compelled to ; I can stay at home. If you put the same question to a man without means, the reply you would get would be this : Well, give me the means and I will go. He is perfectly right in saying that. A man with $25. $50 or $100 is not able to go there and make a home for himself, unless he wants to make a slave of himself. A man should have means sufficient to enable him to live a year at least, and these people, having no means, cannot go to the west ; and, as a matter of fact, they do not go. A great deal has been said about Canadians emigrating to the United States. It is very easy to condemn them in the House here, and to say that they should not go to the United States, that they should do this or that, but you must remember it is not so easy to carry out the advice that is given to them in this House. Very few hon. members of this House know what emigration means. A man with a few dollars, three or four dollors, or perhaps ' ten or fifteen dollars, when he gets hard up, can go to the United States. We must remember that a poor man in Quebec can go to the United States at a cost of a few dollars, whereas it costs him
a good deal more than he can afford to move to western Canada. In the States our people get work and save a few hundred dollars, and then they return home and others go to take their places, so that it is a case of going and coming all the time. The money spent on immigration is not spent in the right direction. It is a disgrace to see how our Canadians are being allowed to drift to the States. You see train load and train load of them moving off, and the next day an agent starts off after them to try and coax them back again. If you took the money that was spent on their going and returning, and the money that you spend on the agents, and the money that you pay for bringing here the trash of Europe, and apply the aggregate amount to keeping our own Canadians at home you would be spending money to better advantage. I know something about the west, because I was there before half of you were born, and forty-five years ago I walked right up to the Pembina Mountain. I could have bought half of the west at that time for little money, but the trouble is that I hadn't the money and like other poor folk I had to come back. It is just as well for the minister to stop his agencies in the United States or else to change his system. Previous to 1862 there were very few Canadians in the United States and there were comparatively few factories, but during the civil war the men were engaged at the front and as the women took their places in different employments the Americans came over here and succeeded in inducing a number of our younger people to settle down there. They got $45 and $50 a month, but as it required $2.5(j in paper money to get one dollar in gold the people were not anxious to leave the States and so they stayed there. That was really the beginning of the Canadian settlement in the United States. If the Minister of the Interior gave more encouragement to Canadians to stay at home and less encouragement to Europeans to come here he would save money and have a better class of population in Canada.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have listened attentively to this discussion on immigration which lias been going on for four days, and I think I may say that no one will accuse me of taking up the time of the House by engaging unduly in the discussion. In reply to my hon. friend (Mr. Morin) I would say that while doubtless it is true that so long as the world lasts there may always be improvements suggested in any system which is being carried on by human agency, still when we look at the results of the work which is being carried on by the Minister of the Interior in connection with immigration, we must admit that it is producing good results; at all events vastly better results than were obtained when the Conservatives were in power and were conducting

their policy of immigration. 15very member of this committee will admit that it is most important that we should receive in Canada a good class of immigrants. We do not want diseased persons nor those who might be classed as paupers and who are liable to become a burden on the taxpayers. The hon. gentleman from Toronto (Air. Clarke) discussed the question this afternoon with commendable moderation, and his words bore that great weight which his words always bear when he speaks in this House. Yet I think that perhaps he laid too much stress on the report of the United States officials which would go to show that over 700 diseased immigrants had necessarily been left in Canada within a certain period. I was constrained to ask him where these people had gone to, and the hon. gentleman advised me to institute an inquiry to discover. I think, Sir, that most hon. gentlemen will agree with me that the suggestion of the hon. gentleman was in itself an answer to the complaint he was making. If it be necessary to institute an exhaustive inquiry to discover where these 700 diseased persons have found a haven of rest in Canada, we may take it for granted that the condition of things is not so serious as he would make out.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would ask the hon. gentleman to look up the record of ' Hansard,' and he will see that quite elaborate explanations were given as to where these people have been going and what a burden they were on the municipalities. Surely he would not expect me to ascertain where the seven hundred who were rejected went ? I merely drew attention to the statement that this number were rejected at a single Canadian port by-the officials of the United States. There was no means of our sending them back ; that is the position.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have listened to practically all the discussion that has taken place on this subject in the last four days, and until the hon. gentleman himself presented a letter from a gentleman in Montreal this afternoon, we had not one item of definite, practical information on which to base a complaint Even the letter which the hon. gentleman read was very vague. The gentleman wrote as follows :
Allow me to extend to you my. thanks for drawing the attention of the people to the matter of immigration. I have been trying for the rast year to arouse some interest in our city, which by the way is the chief sufferer in regard to this evil.
Evidently the matter is not considered very serious in the city of Montreal, if he has been trying for a year to arouse some interest in it, apparently without much success. He goes on to say that he would be glad to come to Ottawa if his presence would be of any benefit. That is the first practical item of evidence which has been Mr. SCOTT.
given to the House that there was any real complaint. I venture to say again that if there is difficulty in discovering the location of the complaint, and if an exhaustive and close inquiry is required this would go a considerable length in proving that the complaint is not very serious. As a resident of the North-west Territories, where a very large proportion of the immigrants go to, I may say that I am as much interested as any member of this committee in that question as to whether diseased persons or undesirable characters shall be permitted to come into this country. Speaking as a resident of the North-west who has within recent years come into contact with a good many of the new settlers, I may say that in our country there is no serious complaint at all against the character of the immigrants. There is not to my knowledge any considerable number of them with loathsome diseases or with any class of disease. AAritb regard to the people who have come from Europe, I have never heard a single complaint on that score. The only complaint with regard to incoming settlers has been with regard to some of the people who came from the United States, who, a few days after their arrival, developed cases of small-pox. The disease was not developed when they came aeross the border and were examined by the physicians there. While I am on my feet, I would like to say that it must be a matter of very great satisfaction to the House and the country generally that, in the matter of immigration, we have got to the point where we can feel that we can afford to discriminate and sift. Until a few years ago it was never suggested that we ought to sift ; the whole cry was to get people, any kind of people, to come to the country. Only the year before the election of 1896, when the hon. gentleman's friends were in power, this problem of immigration was considered so serious by the people of this country that a great convention was called, held in the city of Winnipeg, I think, in February, 1895 or 1896, at which there were delegates from all points between the Pacific coast and lake Superior.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Promoted largely by Conservatives.


Thomas Walter Scott: Promoted, as my hon. friend says, largely by Conservatives. It was attended by the then Minister of the Interior, the Hon. Mr. Daly, who begged the delegates to suggest some means to him by which he could induce people to come to this country. The feeling of that convention was almost one of hopelessness about bringing immigrants into the country to help to develop its resources. Until my hon. friend the present Minister of the Interior took office and took charge of the Immigration Department, we never had any reasonable amount of success in dealing with this pro-

blem. I agree entirely with my hon. friend from centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) who spoke on this subject a couple of nights ago, that the general policy of the government has far more to do with a solution of this question of immigration than anything that may be directly done by the Immigration Department. My hon. friend knows that I entirely disagree with him as to what that general policy should be, particularly on the question of the tariff ; and if my hon. friend looks back over the history of recent years, he cannot fail to reach the conclusion that the policy of the present government witli regard to the tariff and transportation-


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the hon. gentleman in order now ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I am perfectly willing to submit to the ruling of the Chairman. This is a phase of the question which was discussed at considerable length on another day, this week. I do not wish to take up any length of time in discussing it. I merely wish to say that I agree wholly with the hon. member for centre Toronto in the belief that the general policy is the more important consideration.


James Clancy: Perhaps the hon. gentleman will tell how far the Minister of the Interior altered the tariff policy in actual practice with regard to the North-west Territories ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I am afraid my hon. friend is trying to lead me into a wider discussion of the tariff. That has been pretty well thrashed out in this session and in recent sessions. I would only refer my hon. friend to his leader, who stated with reference to the iron duties that enormous reductions had been made since the present government came into office. I repeat that I entirely agree with the hon. member for Centre Toronto in that regard, and I was going on to say that if he would look over the history of' the recent past, he could not fail to arrive at the conclusion that the present general policy of the government, as well as the very ' effective immigration policy which has been put into operation by the present Minister of the Interior, is proving to be a notable success, at least as compared with what we had in previous years. In the year 1890, the total immigration had been reduced to about 16,000 a year, as a result of the general policy and the lack of an immigration policy on the part of the hon. gentleman's friends who were in office.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much was spent during that year in promoting immigration ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I believe ?120,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much was spent last year ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Between $500,000 and $600,000. But I would point out to my hon. friend that in previous years the Conservative government spent a vastly larger sum than $120,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You are referring to 1896. Stick to your text.


Peter Macdonald: Order. Hon. members addressing the committee should stand and address the Chair.


Thomas Walter Scott: I must apologize, Mr. Chairman, for having transgressed the rules.


Peter Macdonald: This whole discussion is irregular. We have discussed this question three consecutive days. We have gone over the same arguments day after day, and it appears to me a very undignified way of conducting public business by men of talent and capacity, that they should go on raking up the same questions continually.


Andrew B. Ingram: You have no right to dictate to us.


Peter Macdonald: I am not dictating, but simply showing why the whole discussion is irregular. Should any hon. member call my attention to the rule and say that we are not bound by any arrangement made between hon. members on both sides, I will be forced to declare this discussion out of order.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have no objection to your declaring what the rules of the House are; but when you undertake to dictate to us how we are to discuss these matters, you are entirely out of your sphere.


Peter Macdonald: I must always dictate to hon. members when a point of order is raised. I am pointing out in what respect this discussion is out of order, and when the hon. gentleman discusses the ruling of the Chair, he is committing a breach of order himself.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have legal redress in this House.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Peter Macdonald: The hon. gentleman has no right to discuss the ruling of the Chair.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am resorting to the redress I have in common with every other hon. member.


Peter Macdonald: If the hon. gentleman wishes to appeal from the ruling of the Chair, he is at liberty to do so.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will do that if you will persist in dictating to us what we shall do.


Thomas Walter Scott: As the original offender, I most humbly apologize for having transgressed any rule. I was endeavouring to proceed strictly with the discussion of this immigration item which is now before the committee. I was dealing with the contention advanced by my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Clarke) that the expenditure
6S63

of the late government was only $120,000 per year. That was the expenditure In 1890, but during the ten years from 1881 to 1891, there was a considerably larger annual expenditure; and the reports of the Immigration Department showed a very satisfactory return in the way of immigration, the figures being in the vicinity of 800,000 people. But when the census enumerators however-those very zealous enumerators to whom the lion. Minister of Trade and Commerce sometimes refers-took the census in 1891, it was discovered that not only had we not retained the S00,000 people we had brought in at an enormous expense, but had scarcely maintained the natural increase of the country. But the conditions are now entirely altered. We have been getting during recent years a very considerable number of immigrants; and although it has been insinuated time and again during this debate that we are not keeping them, the figures and facts show the contrary. Every person is aware that we are retaining the people brought into the country and the fact does not require to be fortified with the proofs in order to be convinced of it. Last year the production of Manitoba and the North-west Territories increased to an enormous total, exceeding 126,000,000 bushels of grain.


George Taylor: Thanks to a kind Providence.


Thomas Walter Scott: Was Providence never kind during the whole eighteen years when the hon. gentleman's friends were in power.


George Taylor: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much of that prosperity-was due to the presence of such immigrants as the Doukhobors ?


Thomas Walter Scott: A very considerable proportion.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much ?


Thomas Walter Scott: The settlements of the Doukhobors shows a very considerable production.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Give us the figures.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have not got the figures at hand, but I can tell my hon. friend that, from what I know, the Doukhobor and the Galician settlements are proving very successful, many of these people are just as successful and valuable as new settlers as any of the others brought into the country, but I would remind my boil, friend that it was not the present government which began to bring Galicians into the country. Before 1896 the great efforts of the Immigration Department were devoted to countries like Galicia.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman has introduced the subject of Galician immigration, which I did not mention at all. We must not build up houses of cards to knock them down again.


Thomas Walter Scott: 


Thomas Walter Scott: Does the hon. gentleman object to my introducing the subject ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: I object to iny hon. friend dragging me into it. I did not mention the subject of Galician immigration. If he wants to make an argument in favour of Galician immigration, let him do so, but not in reply to me.


Thomas Walter Scott: Then I take it that, as far as the hon. gentleman is concerned, he withdraws all the objections urged in past years to the Galician immigration.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Surely the hon. gentleman must submit to the intelligence and common sense of his auditors. I asked him to explain what proportion of the prosperity of Manitoba and the North-west Territories is due to the presence of the Doukhobors. If he wants to ascertain what opinions are held of the Galicians, I must refer him to the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver). I did not even mention them.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have not got the figures of the actual production of the Doukhobor settlements, but if my hon. friend will take my word, speaking as a resident of the North-west Territories, my best information is that the majority of the Doukhobors are proving very good producers and settlers.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am very glad to hear it.


Thomas Walter Scott: There was a considerable number last year who were seized by some mania and gave considerable trouble, but that trouble lias been almost entirely removed. There is a very limited number who are still affected by this form of mania, and a couple of dozen of them are incarcerated in some of our institutions at present. I would remind my hon, friend also that the Doukhobors came into the country under different conditions from any of the other classes. They did not come in through any efforts of the Immigration Department but at the request and under the auspices of the Society of Friends of the United States and Great Britain.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Why then did the Immigration Department take credit for bringing these people out ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Does the hon. gentleman think that the Immigration Department would have been justified in excluding the figures of the Doukhobors from its returns ? Is the department not in duty bound to include in its returns all the people who may come in during any one year. However, Mr. Chairman, I was proceeding to point out to the hon. gentleman that the difference in results is shown by the conditions in Manitoba and the North-west, and I was quoting the enormous total production of grain last year which exceeded 126,000,000 bushels. I have not under my hand figures showing the total production in the year 1896 or previous years, but I venture to

state that the production last year was fully three times as great as it was in any year prior to 1897. Then, take the figures with regard to the export of cattle.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was that increased export due to the immigration policy of the government ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Very considerably. The increased production of grain and cattle-


Edward Frederick Clarke: Cattle ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Yes, it was certainly due to the increased population of the country. My hou. friend (Mr. Clarke) surely will not contend that the same number of people as in 1896 increased the production to what it was last year, fully four times as great as that of 1896 or any prior year. In 1896 the total export of cattle amounted to
8.000	head. Last year we exported to Great Britain alone, 41,000 head, besides very considerable exports to the British Columbia mining markets and to the Yukon. Then I would direct his attention to the transactions in land in that country, which are a very good index of the general business conditions. In the year 1896, the sales of the Canadian Pacific lands amounted to a total of 66,000 acres, representing about $200,000; and the total sales of all the companies exceeded by very little 100,000 acres for a sum in the neighbourhood of $245,000. In a single month during the present year, the Canadian Pacific Railway sells more land than all the companies together sold in any year prior to 1897. Last month the Canadian Pacific Railway sold between 300,000 and
400.000	acres of land, these transactions re-presentingmorethan $1,000,000, and the total sales of that company last year amounted to about 2,500,000 acres for a total of almost $10,000,000. The conditions go to prove the contention of my hon. friend from Centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) that the general policy pursued by the government has more to do with immigration than anything that can be done, directly as an immigration policy. The immigration policy that we pursue bears about the same relation to the whole conduct of government as the advertising and bookkeeping departments of an ordinary business bears to the whole business. It is a necessary and valuable element, and the business could hardly be conducted without it. I am inclined to agree with the Minister of the Interior that it is necessary to make these expenditures directly upon immigration, and to advertise our country throughout the world, so that we may induce people to come here and assist us in developing the country. But the Immigration business itself is only a small factoi-, the main factor being such a policy on the part of the government as shall make the conditions of life in the country so favourable that people will be induced to come, and to stay when they have come. As I pointed out to my hon. friend, in years gone by, we got large
numbers of people, but they refused to stay. The conditions of life in the western country under the policy pursued up to 1S96 were such that these people could not make a living, and they refused to stay.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the difference In the conditions ?


Thomas Walter Scott: The ordinary farmer


Edward Frederick Clarke: In what way have the conditions improved ?


Thomas Walter Scott: If my hon. friend will be patient, I will tell him. The conditions with regard to tariff taxation were so severe and the freight rates imposed by the Canadian Pacific Railway which hon. gentlemen opposite had constructed


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the hon. gentleman so far insult the intelligence of this committee as to say that taxation is now less than it was in 1896 ?


Thomas Walter Scott: Certainly it is. The rate of taxation is very considerably lighter than it was in 1896. And if my hon. friend disputes it, I will refer him to his own leader who will tell him what I tell him.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Our leader never contended anything of the kind. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) makes no distinction between taxation and duty. We admit that some duties are reduced, but taxation has increased and the burdens of the people of the west are increased.


Thomas Walter Scott: I am willing that my hou. friend (Mr. Henderson) or any other gentleman should go to the western farmer and endeavour to convince him


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the hon. gentleman permit me to interrupt him again ? Will he tell us what lines of goods are cheaper than in 1896. Coal oil?-binder twine ?


William Ross: This is not in order.


Peter Macdonald: I regard this, at least, as outside the question.


Thomas Walter Scott: I am obliged to tell my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) that lam not a travelling price list. But he has always shown himself a fair-minded man on the floor of this House, and I think he is fair enough and his range of knowledge is wide enough to enable him to agree with me when I say that the whole conditions of livelihood in Manitoba and the North-west at all events- those countries I know something about- are vastly more favourable to comfort and success than they were in 1896.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am always willing to take any of the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Scott's) statements that appeal to my judgment: and I should be glad to take his statement now, but that I have seen, and compared, and compiled figures that compel me to express a doubt as to the accuracy

of what lie is saying. That is the reason I asked him for the figures. I assert that taxation is higher now than it was in 1896. I ask him how the conditions of life are improved, so far as the government could improve them ? Will he say that the cost of living is lower ?


Thomas Walter Scott: My hon. friend and I will have to agree to disagree. My opinion is that taxation is not higher than it was. The farmer buys numbers of articles which he is compelled to buy, at less rates to-day than prior to 1896. Practically all lines of clothing come in at lower rates than prior to 1896, and every important feature of the business of gaining a livelihood in that country has been made more favourable to the farmer. One very important feature is the reduction of freight rates.


Edward Frederick Clarke: By the Manitoba government.


Thomas Walter Scott: By the present Dominion government. One very material reduction, as the hon. gentleman knows, was that brought about by the Crow's Nest Pass contract, made, if I remember well, in the year 1898. Then, the whole administration of the department over which my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior presides is more intelligent, more energetic and more satisfactory to the people, since he has taken hold of it, than was the case before. My hon. friend from Toronto has been in the North-west and these things must be within his knowledge. In countless ways which would take too long for me to enumerate- my hon. friend from East Northumberland (Mr. Cochrane) would become impatient were I to go over the list-the conditions of life have been vastly improved, as the result of the policy of the present government. And the results are shown by the figures which prove that the people are coming into that country, and not only coming in but staying there. As I said before, according to reports of the Immigration Department, we received under the administration of hon. gentlemen opposite 800,000 people in ten years. But they did not remain in that country. I venture to say, on my responsibility as a member of this House that, in the year 1896, there were not to be found in Manitoba and the North-west one out of every five, of the people who had originally gone into that country. Why had they gone away ? They were driven out by the non-intelligent policy adopted and carried out by the Conservative government up to 1S96. The conditions to-day are entirely different. Does anybody dispute that they were driven out-that they went out ?


James Clancy: Nobody doubts that they were driven out, but they were driven out by the cries of hon. gentlemen oppposit? that this country was not fit to live in..


Thomas Walter Scott: I would advise my hon. friend (Mr. Clancy) to tell that to the mar-Mr. CLARKE.
ines. That is well enough to say here, but it would be absolutely useless for him to attempt to convince the people of Manitoba and the North-west of anything of that kind. In the early years of 1890 a considerable immigration set into the Northwest from the western states of the union, directed chiefly to northern Alberta. These people found the conditions of that country such that they remained less than four years ; and if hon. gentlemen will look over the files of western newspapers for the years 1891 and 1895, they will find accounts of the caravans of these western settlers who were travelling south again, going back to the United States, too poor to pay railway fares. The conditions were such that they could not sell their effects, their wagons and their horses, and the only way to get out of the country was to hitch their teams to canvas wagons and drive hundreds of miles to reach their old homes. I will give hon. gentlemen one instance. In 1895 it was expected, in the early part of the year, that a general election was about to take place, and the parties commenced to prepare in the various districts. In a little settlement east of Regina, the settlement of Balgonie, very largely composed of people from Europe, a class similar in some respects, particularly in their industry and thrift to the Galicians, called Germans, or Russian-Germans, descendants of people who nearly a century ago migrated from Germany to Russia, in that settlement the voters' list was made up in the year 1895, and the election was held in June, 1896. Now let hon. gentlemen bear this fact in mind, that when that election was held in June, 1896, it was found that there were ninety less voters than had been put upon the voters' list in 1895 ; ninety voters representing ninety families, had pulled up stakes and gone away to the United States, because they could not make a satisfactory living. To-day the majority of these people are back on their old holdings in the Balgonie district.


Richard Blain: Would the hon. gentleman repeat again the statement he made with respect to the expenditure on immigration under the old government and under the new government ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I said that in 1896 the old government spent $120,000, and that in former years they had spent sums vastly greater than that, and they were also bringing in immigrants in greater numbers, but those immigrants did not stay in the country.


Richard Blain: Do I understand the hon. gentleman to say that the Liberal-Conservative government expended a sum vastly greater than the sums expended by the present government since 1896 ?


Thomas Walter Scott: No, I said that in certain years the Conservative government spent sums almost as great as the sum exjmnd-

ed by my hon. friend the present Minister of the Interior last year.


Richard Blain: I would like that question to be put right, and I would refer the hon. gentleman to the Year-book, and ask him to read the figures, also give us the years when the Liberal-Conservative government spent anything like $65,000. Perhaps the bon. gentleman would be good enough to read us the figures for the five years prior to the defeat of the Liberal-Conservative government, in 1806, backward, and then take the years forward from 1896 up to the present year.


Thomas Walter Scott: I prefer to take the years for the period of which I was speaking, which was the period from 1881 to 1891. The expenditure in 1881 was $214,251 ; in 1882, $215,339 ; in 18S4, $511,209. I had not looked at these figures for months, and I was speaking from recollection when I said that in certain years the Conservative government had spent almost as much money as my hon. friend did last year.


Richard Blain: Read forward from that year.


Thomas Walter Scott: In 1885 the hon. gentleman's friends spent $423,861. I think these figures substantiate the statement I made that there were certain years when his friends spent almost as much money as was spent by the present government last year. Now, before concluding my remarks, I would like to give my hon. friends opposite some advice. I think they are prepared to admit that on the whole the immigration problem has been fairly and satisfactorily solved by this government, and if they are not prepared to admit it, I may say that at all events the people in the west are satisfied with the administration of the Immigration department by my hon. friend the present Minister of the interior. What was the position last year ? Up to the 30th of June last, we had an immigration of a little over 126,uUO. Something in the neighbourhood of 45,000 of these came from the United States, and hon. gentlemen on both sides admit that these are first-class settlers. Then we got from Great Britain about 41,000. The balance of these people came from the various countries in Europe, and the Minister of the Interior, or his officials, inform us that about 6,000 of these people came from Galicia, were of that class of people known as the abused Galicians. Let us admit for a moment that the Galicians are objectionable. And we have to admit that, with the exception of this 6,000, the whole of these 126,000 new settlers that came into the country are of the very best class we could desire. I think that is fair proof that immigration is being dealt with to the general satisfaction, even of the most captious critics who sit upon the opposition benches. Now, I must allude to a slanderous remark that was made by the hon. member for
East Grey (Mr. Sproule), who, I am sorry to see, is not in his seat, against the Barr colonists. I think my hon. friends opposite will generally admit, that I am stating the case fairly in saying that they do not object to immigrants from the United States nor from Great Britain, except possibly some individual cases. But the hon. member for East Grey made a slanderous and abusive remark against the Barr colonists, against those 2,500 people who came out here. He said he learned that there were rumours afloat that these people were composed of the scum of the London slums. Now I say upon my responsibility as a member that sucb a remark is a slander; and I can quote from the statement which was already quoted by my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) in this House, made by Mr. Haul-tain, in the legislative assembly at Regina, that the Barr colonists were as a whole as fine a class of people as ever came across the water. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) read to this House an extract form the speech made by Mr. Haultain, who said he had travelled with a number of these people and had never seen a finer class of settlers. I say it is a shame and a disgrace, and an abuse of the privileges of this House, for an hon. member to get up and make such a statement without a semblance of authority. When put to the proof and asked what he had to justify his remarks, the hon. gentleman said that he thought he had seen it in some newspaper. He was not even able to state the name of the newspaper. I think I am in the judgment of the House when I say that no hon. member has the right to make such a remark about any class of people in this country, whether they are new comers or old timers, without the best justification, and all the justification the hon. member for East Grey had for calling the Barr colonists scum from the London slums was the statement that he thought he had seen it in some newspaper. I venture to say it was a newspaper without any semblance of authority if the hon. gentleman really did see it in any newspaper. I will read from the hon. gentleman's speech on the floor of this House.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What day was that 1 I do not remember when the hon. member for East Grey spoke.


Thomas Walter Scott: It was just a week ago tonight.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. member for East Grey denies it. I will read what that hon. gentleman said


Peter Macdonald: Order. There can be no quotation from a previous debate.


Andrew B. Ingram: Why did you allow the hon. gentleman to make a quotation then 7


Peter Macdonald: He has made no quotation. He made a reference to the question only. There can be no quotation,

and I cannot permit quotations to be made on either side from previous debates.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The ruling, ns 1 understand it, is that an lion, gentleman can get up and attribute to another hon. gentleman, and that too in his absence, certain statements and that the denial cannot be quoted.


Samuel Hughes: Before you give your ruling, Mr. Chairman, as I know you wish to give a well considered ruling, will you allow me to point out that this is the same debate continued. This is not a past debate.


Peter Macdonald: When this question came up it came up when the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) made his speech on an absolutely and entirely different question, and whilst the Speaker was in the Chair. It was during that past discussion that the expression was used by the hon. member for East Grey. It was since referred to, and against the rules of the House somebody read it on the other side. I am not going to allow a repetition of selections or quotations to be made from a former debate.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Why did you allow it, then ?


Peter Macdonald: The hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) did not make any quotation.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: He did make a quotation.


James Clancy: I would like to call your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that the hon. member for West Assiniboia referred to a former debate. The hon. gentleman had full latitude to score, if I may so describe it, the hon. member for East Grey for something he was supposed to have said in a former debate, if it was a former debate. Surely, the hon. gentleman, in doing that, was out of order.


Peter Macdonald: The rule is quite clear. The rule says that reference [ to a former debate can only be made by way of illustration, and that no quotation can be made from a former debate. I am not responsible for that rule. That is the rule, and that is my ruling.


Andrew B. Ingram: I quite agree, Mr. Chairman, with you in respect to that particular point, but I want to draw your attention to the fact that I am quoting from a debate which took place in supply, in discussing the immigration item. We have agreed with the hon. Minister of the Interior that we shall have perfect liberty to discuss every question concerning the policy of the government on immigration.


Peter Macdonald: The hon. minister has no power to give you liberty to violate any rule of that kind, and I am only Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.
this evening carrying out, against the rules of the House, an arrangement that was made between the committee and the minister. I am not going to permit every rule of the House to be violated because these arrangements have been entered into.


Mr. FOWLER.: Why did you not stop the hon. member for West Assiniboia ?


Peter Macdonald: He did not make any quotation.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: He did make a quotation.


Andrew B. Ingram: Before you rule, Mr. Chairman, that this is a former debate, I would call your attention to the following in ' Hansard ' :



SUPPLY-IMMIGRATI ON.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
Thomas Walter Scott: I am in possession of the floor.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have the floor just now.


George William Fowler: This is a question of order.


Thomas Walter Scott: If anybody is the offender, I suppose I am. The hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) is attempting to defend me.


Andrew B. Ingram: No.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: No ; nobody with common sense could defend you.


Andrew B. Ingram: I hold that this present debate is the same debate as that which was introduced by the motion of the hon. Minister of the Interior, to which I have just called your attention, Mr. Chairman, and that what I propose to quote has reference to the present debate.


Peter Macdonald: When we read an item, discuss it and dispose of it, you cannot refer to it again.


Samuel Hughes: You can by arrangement of the House.


Peter Macdonald: Yes, by arrangement with the committee. No single member, whether he be a minister of otherwise, can make any arrangement against the will of the committee. If the committee by unanimous consent agrees to set aside the rule which governs the committee, then that can be done.


Andrew B. Ingram: What is the rule ?


Peter Macdonald: The ruling now is that you cannot quote from a previous debate.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the hon. gentleman fead the rule ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: The rule seems to be that the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) ,can slug the hon. member for East Grey without the friends of that hon. gentleman having an opportunity of refuting the charges and quoting what he did say. I will pass ' Hansard ' over to the hon. member for Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Galliher) so that he can read the denial made by the hon. member for East Grey.


William Alfred Galliher: I am not going to quote what the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) said. It has been referred to here by the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott). It was referred to the other night in this House. The hon. member for East Grey denied it, or did not recollect it, at all events. ' Hansard ' was produced, and the very words that he had said or which had been attributed to him were in his speech in ' Hansard.' That took place only the other night.	.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do you recollect just what he did say then ?


William Alfred Galliher: He simply referred to the fact that these Barr colonists, or some of them, he understood, had been taken from the slums of London.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is that a fact ?


William Alfred Galliher: That was drawn to the hon. member's attention when he was present in the House, and he had nothing to say.	.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. Galliher) dispute that fact ?


William Alfred Galliher: I was not in London, I did not see them picked out, and I never saw any of them.


Thomas Walter Scott: To settle the point finally, I may say that I have the quotation here, and my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) will find it at page 6403 of ' Hansard.' The hon. member for East Grey was speaking-


Richard Blain: We must have the rule first.


Thomas Walter Scott: And he said


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.
Mr. SCOTT (reading)- .
I need not say anything-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.
Mr. SCOTT (reading)-
-of the class of immigrants which were brought out


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.
Mr. SCOTT (reading)-
-but I am told that many of them were picked up from the slums of London.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Peter Macdonald: Order. I will be forced to name some hon. members if
they do not behave themselves. The rule is :
No .member, in speaking, can refer to anything said or done in a previous debate during the same session-a rule necessary to economize the time of the House. Neither is it regular to refer to arguments used in Committee of the Whole ; nor to an amendment proposed in the same. Neither may a member read from a printed newspaper or book, comments on any speech made in parliament during .the current session. It is also in contravention of the rules cf the House to discuss measures which are not regularly before it. But a reference to a previous debate, by way of illustration is in order. But a member may always quote from a speech made in a previous session.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: May I call your attention to the fact that the hon. gentleman is speaking on the same question in Committee of Supply, and it is the same debate.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is no question about it.


George Taylor: I move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again. I do this because it is evident that lion, gentlemen opposite have been obstructing the passing of these estimates for the last hour or so. Hon. gentlemen on this side of the House have a number of questions to ask and it is impossible for us to ask them until the government supporters stop obstructing.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is now in order for me to make a few remarks. I may say to the hon. member. (Mr. Scott) that I do not wish to take his place, but, I have to take a train in a few moments. I call liis attention to the quality of immigrants coming into this country. I will not quote from a previous debate, hut I would direct his attention to a speech made by the Minister of Agriculture the other night as to the exodus, and I am sure the member for Assiniboia will not challenge the statement of the Minister of Agriculture.


Thomas Walter Scott: Not at all. I am aware of the figures he gave.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do you concur in the statement of the minister ?


Thomas Walter Scott: The statement was made with reference to the eastern provinces.


Mr.   CLARICE@: Very well then, these figures reveal a condition of things that ought for ever to shut hon. gentlemen's mouths as to the exodus.


Thomas Walter Scott: The exodus in the west has entirely ceased.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Let me tell the hon. gentleman that twelve months ago the Minister of Agriculture made a speech in which he proved to our satisfaction and to his own that between 1890 and 1895, 43,000 Canadians went to Massachusetts, and between 1895 and 1900 there were 41,000


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Will my hon. friend permit me


Edward Frederick Clarke: Wait till I have finished the sentence-the later period during which the hon. member (Mr. Scott) would like to persuade us that the exodus had practically ceased-now then the Minister of Agriculture may say what he has to say.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman is not correctly quoting what I said the other night. I was correcting a statement made by the leader of the opposition and the question was as to the number of Canadian born people in the state of Massachusetts. That statement does not show that they went from Canada to .Massachusetts ; they may have come from any other part of the United States to Massachusetts. The hon. member for Pictou last year made a statement to this House in which he quoted incorrect statements from the American returns. I corrected that misstatement. The other night the leader of the opposition quoted the incorrect figures of the hon. member for Pictou given last year, and I showed that I had refuted that misstatement of the member for Pictou. What I said was that these people were Canadian born living in Massachusetts at these dates. They may have gone there from Canada or anywhere else.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Let me point out to the minister that the figures quoted as to the number of Canadians in Massachusetts between 1890 and 1895 were made'to do duty to show the enormous exodus from Canada during that five years period ; and when we apply the same rule to the Minister of Agriculture he says : Oh, but these Canadians may have been residing in some other state of the union and may have gone from that other state to Massachusetts. If the hon. gentleman thinks that the explanation meets the situation, I have no objection to the Minister of Agriculture having it placed on record. This afternoon the member for Assiniboia made the statement that 700 was the total number of diseased immigrants rejected in Canada by the United States officials. I quoted the statement of Mr. Watchorn that in one year in one port 737 immigrants who came to Canada ostensibly to go to the United States had been rejected ; but if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) will turn to page 11 of the annual report of the Commissioner General of Immigration for the fiscal year ending June 30th, 1902. he will find a tabulated statement, No. 3 ; ' report of immigrants refused admission from foreign contiguous territory to the United States under provision of the Alien Contract Labour Laws and Laws Regulating Emigration ; ' and he will find that all told there were 2,016 and not 737 rejected at the United States border. So long as that condition of things is per-Mr. CLARKE.
mitted to exist; so long as that percentage of unsuitable immigrants is allowed to come into this country, the hon. gentleman cannot make any boast as to what has been done by the Interior department.
In introducing this matter this afternoon, it was for the sole object of drawing the attention of the hon. minister to the statements again and again made by the immigration officers of the United States as to the quality of these immigrants, and of urging the minister to take steps to prevent the introduction of this class of people into our country. The hon. gentleman refers to the number of immigrants coming from the United States into Canada. Why have they come, though it costs more to live here now than it did five or six years ago ? Because the available land of the United States is practically taken up, and because they can buy in our North-west for $3 or $4 an acre just as good land as they left in the United States, and can sell the land they left for five or six times that price. The hon. gentleman knows, of course, that the immigration from the United States is very largely induced by American land speculators who have bought large blocks of land in the territories and are advertising in whole-page advertisements in' the newspapers of the United States the superlative advantages of our North-west as a country for settlement. And if the immigration from the United States was not as great formerly as it is to-day; that was due to two facts : First, there was available land for settlement in the United States ; and next, the hon. gentleman's friends never ceased to decry the North-west country, publishing the most pessimistic statements respecting it; and because, further, the conditions of life had not been solved by the settlers to the same extent as now. The experimental stage was not past then. It is happily past now, and the series of abundant harvests which the country has enjoyed in the past few years has done more to attract attention to its advantages, and to induce immigration to flow into it than all the efforts that have been put forth by the Minister of the Interior and his friends in the government.
Motion of Mr. Taylor negatived :	yeas,
21; nays, 25.


Thomas Walter Scott: In reply to the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke), who I am very sorry is compelled to go away, I may say that I entirely agree with him that this inspection and keeping out of diseased persons is most important. I trust that there is no member of this committee who desires to see diseased or undesirable persons allowed to come into this country. But my point was that I thought the hon. gentlemen opposite were laying undue stress upon this matter. At all events, speaking for the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories, I said that there was practically no complaint in that country, to which the

majority of our immigration goes, on this score. But before this little interruption occurred, which 1 very much regret, 1 was dealing with the abuse which at present and for years past has been showered by hon. gentlemen opposite on all classes of people who have been coming into Manitoba and the North-west Territories-abuse which in all cases has been unjustified. For years the Minister of the Interior was assailed because a large number of people were coming from Europe and a comparatively small number from Great Britain. But we find, from the remark which I quoted from the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproulc), that they are quite as ready to abuse people coming from Great Britain as they were those coming from Galicia. If the hon. gentleman was disposed to be fair, he could have quoted the testimony of the Prime Minister of the territories, a member in good standing of the Conservative party, as to the splendid character of these Barr colonists. He could also have quoted the testimony of a Conservative newspaper published in Battleford, which I may say is the pioneer paper of the North-west Territories, and whose editor was no doubt very familiar with what he was writing because all these colonists went through Battleford on their way to the locality where they settled. That paper spoke in the very highest terms of the character of those people. I wish again to offer to my hon. friends opposite a word of advice regarding the statements which they sometimes purposely make and sometimes, 1 am fain to think they carelessly make, in abuse of the new settlers. For instance, the other evening, in speaking in this debate, the hon. member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) spoke of the government permitting to come and settle on our fertile lands of the Northwest Territories, idiots, insane persons, diseased persons, and paupers. His remarks might easily be construed into a reflection on the majority of the people who have come and settled in the country.


William Rees Brock: Do not misconstrue them. I did not say that they settled on the lands of the North-west Territories. I said they were rejected and remained in the country.


Thomas Walter Scott: I am endeavouring to point out to hon. gentlemen opposite the advisability of their being a little more careful in the statements they make with regard to the people who come into this country. I do not think the hon. gentleman intended any reflection on a majority of the people who come and settle in the country, but he did speak about idiots, insane persons, diseased persons and paupers being permitted to come to this country, and that remark might well be construed into a reflection on the people from the United States and the people from Great Britain who have come in during the past year. I am certain that
the hon. gentleman intended no such reflection, and I merely point out that it would be well for hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House to have a care of the way they speak about those people. I quite agree with what the hon. Minister of the Interior said the other night, that man for man a better lot of people never came into the country than the 125,000 who came in during the past year. Forty thousand came from the United States, nearly an equal number from Great Britain, and the remainder from other countries in Europe.
I would like to make a reference to the Galicians, chiefly because of a reference made to them by one of the other members from the North-west Territories the other night. I may say that I do not at all agree with the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) in his estimate of the Galicians as settlers.


Samuel Hughes: Would the hon. gentleman have the hardihood to say that if the hon. member for Alberta were in his seat ?


George Taylor: He took good care to look around to see that he was not there.


Thomas Walter Scott: It will be the privilege of the hon. gentleman for Victoria (Mr. Hughes) to draw the attention of the hon. member for Alberta to my remarks in ' Hansard.' I have frequently said the same thing to himself, and I am sorry he is not in his seat to listen to the remarks I have to make. It would not be news to him. He is perfectly well aware of my opinion. In my opinion these 6,000 Galicians who came into this country during the preceding twelve months are valuable and useful settlers and are welcome among us, and an equal number next year and the following years will receive from the great majority of the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories an equal welcome. The hon. member for Alberta does not express the unanimous opinion of the people of his own community. The Conservative newspaper in the town of Edmonton has frequently given testimony to the good character of the Galicians, and I might quote also the testimony of the Conservative mem-mer for the district of Victoria in the Northwest Legislature in their favour. And as that gentleman is a merchant in the town of Fort Saskatchewan he has ample opportunities of judging. The hon. member for East Grey took considerable credit this afternoon for the efforts of the opposition in keeping a certain number of undesirable characters out of the country during recent months. Had he gone back to the years before 1896, he would have found that his party friends were successful in keeping hundreds of thousands of'people away from this country. If we had had in those years the intelligent progressive policy we now enjoy, we would not at present have but

a paltry quarter of a million in our western territories, but something near a million and a half. Speaking as a representative of the territories, I can assure the hon. Minister of the Interior that his land admistration, his immigration administration, and his administration of the various other branches of the department, meet with the very warm endorsatlon of our western country.


Richard Blain: I do not wish to enter into a discussion of the record of the two political parties, on which my hon. friend has detained the House the last hour and a half, but I wish to draw attention to one point at issue between the hon. member and myself. He tried to create the impression that the Liberal-Conservative party had expended nearly as much money upon Immigration as the present government. I wish to correct that statement.


Thomas Walter Scott: I said that in certain years the hon. gentleman's friends had spent almost as much as we did last year.


Richard Blain: I do not know what the hon. gentleman means by that, except that he would like to leave the impression that at certain times the late Liberal-Conservative government had expended as much money on immigration as this government. I will take any six years the hon. gentleman chooses during the eighteen years when the Liberal-Conservative party were in office and compare them with the six j'ears of the present administration, and the comparison will show which of us is right. But if the hon. gentleman will not name any six years, let me take the last six years of the late administration, and he will find that the difference in favour of the Liberal Conservative government is $1,505,784. In other words, the present government has expended, during the last six years, on immigration more than double what the Liberal-Conservative government expended during the last six years it was in office. But the hon. gentleman selected one year. Well,
I am willing to take any one year. The expenditure on immigration of the Liberal-Conservative party was small.


Samuel Hughes: And the results were very small.


Richard Blain: In the hon. gentleman's county, the census return for the past ten years shows a smaller population than they did the previous ten years. I gave a list last session, showing that in all the very best counties of Ontario, the population was less, according to the census of 1901 than it was in 1891. The hon. gentleman seeks to mislead the committee when he attempts to make us believe that the Liberal-Conservative government expended anything like the amount of money on immigration which this government has expended since 1S96.


Thomas Walter Scott: 


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. the Minister of the Interior will be pleased, no doubt, that his hon. friend from west Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) took up so much of the time of this House. After starting out with the lecture to hon. gentlemen on this side, after telling us that he had listened during four days to the discussion of this question and was very weary and disgusted, he has just taken up an hour and a half of our time going over the same ground again in order to air his views on this subject which he was so tired of. The hon. gentleman referred to the condition of this country previous to 1896, but every one will agree that since then times have been much better in Canada and all over the world. Therefore there can be no particular credit given the policy of the government for the prosperity we are enjoying to-day. In 1896, and for some years previous, there were very hard times in Canada, as was the case throughout the world, but how were the government of that day met by hon. gentlemen opposite on the great question of immigra-ti n. During those years there was very strong necessity for spending large sums on the encouragement of immigration. Did lion, gentlemen opposite support such a policy ? No, they opposed every item ol' expenditure on immigration. I would like to hear from the hon. the Minister of the Interior whether he has ever met any opposition on this side as regards the amount which he desired to expend for the purpose of encouraging immigration. I venture to say that he has not. He has met some criticism on the administration of liis department. His attention has been called to the reports of the American commissioner, showing what a large number of people have come in who are diseased. AVas it not our duty to do this in order that means might be taken to prevent any further influx of sucii people ? In doing this we are advancing the interests of our people. But the hon. gentleman will never find any Conservatives in this House or out of it, taking occasion to run down this country. He will not find any one connected with the Conservative party writing letters to a leading financial paper in England in order to discourage any desirable class of people from coming to this country or to prevent the investment of capital in this country. On the contrary, we have joined with our hon. friends opposite in congratulations over the good times we are now enjoying, which seem to be general throughout the world, and which I hope will long continue. We hope that the administration of this government will be such as will redound to the benefit of the country and our expenditure will be reasonable, and proper immigration will be encouraged. The hon. gentleman speaks of the present condition in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Everybody knows that for the last few years we have had good crops in

Manitoba and the North-west. And Is it not a fact-Is it not true of the hon. gentleman's own constituency ?-that prior to 1896, many farmers who had bought agricultural implements on credit were not able to pay for those implements owing to the bad crops ? But, with the good crops of the last few years, they have been able to pay these and other debts, and I venture to say that many of these farmers have good bank accounts to-day. Is this due to the policy of this government ? Not at all; it is due to the good crops


Thomas Walter Scott: Will my hon. friend permit me one remark ? If he will refer to the record of the crop reports, and will take a series of years prior to 1896 and. a series of years succeeding 1896, I venture to say he wifi lind very little difference in the average year.


Andrew B. Ingram: I simply leave the statement I have made alongside the statement of the hon. gentleman and leave the people of this country to judge which is correct. There is another factor which has helped them greatly. We know that nothing tends more to draw people to a country than the discovery of gold. We know that the British Columbia mines were largely developed by reason of the discovery of gold. And we know perfectly well that capital has been brought in from every country in the world, and hundreds and thousands of people have come in because of the discovery of gold in British Columbia. The hon. gentleman has spoken of tariff and transportation, and has referred to the year 1881 and succeeding years. I wish to point out to him that had that policy of his friends been carried out, we could not possibly have had the present population in the North-west, for they opposed a transportation policy. Notwithstanding their opposition, the Conservative party carried the line of railway through, and as a result of that policy we have the present development of that country.


George Taylor: We would not have had a country at all but for that.


Andrew B. Ingram: Certainly. I do not wish to take up more of the time of the committee.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Go for him.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is not necessary. The hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) is here. Perhaps it has been whispered to him what statements the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has been making.
I believe that one of these gentlemen has one opinion with regard to the Galicians as immigrants, while the other has quite a different opinion. So I leave these hon. gentlemen to settle their differences. For my part I should be glad to see not merely hundreds of thousands but millions of people coming to this country. There is plenty of room for all. I trust a vigorous 216
policy will be pursued for the encouragement of a good class of immigrants. I have no fault to find so far as the amount of money expended is concerned. If the money is properly expended, the expenditure is not too great in the interest of the country. There are points that, I think, could be fairly criticised. I doubt whether it is wise to have so many immigration agents in the United States paid by commission. I do not dwell upon that, because there are other hon. gentlemen who have given the matter more consideration than I have and are more competent to speak upon. it. As a member of the opposition I can say that we are not open to the charge of having, refused our approval to the appropriation of any reasonable sum for immigration purposes.


Samuel Hughes: I think it is somewhat unfortunate that our good friend from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has aroused the spirit in this discussion which we observe. Matters were proceeding very nicely, and the estimates of the minister were being discussed in a very temperate manner until our good friend came in and got the blood circulating rather quickly. I hope, however, it will calm down. As to the credit due to the Minister of the Interior, and as to the condemnation of the policy of the Conservative party, a great deal of extravagant language has been used by the hon. member for West Assiniboia. r stand here prepared to prove to any reasonable audience that the reason the Northwest was not colonized to a greater extent up to 1896 was mainly the cause assigned by the hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram). It was due to disloyalty of the leaders of the Liberal party, whose speeches were used by the immigration agents of the western and south-western states throughout: the length and breadth of the world to keep colonists out of Canada and induce them to go to the United States.


Thomas Walter Scott: I suppose that caused the bad crops that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) was speaking about ?


Samuel Hughes: I am not speaking of bad crops. There will be bad crops in the North-west for all time whenever you will find bad farming. And there will be good crops for all time where you And farmers who know how to put in their crops, properly. I say, in all fairness to the Minister of the Interior-and I speak of what I chance to know something about-that he has shown great energy in advertising our North-west in the western states and in the British islands. I do not say that all the money has been judiciously expended. I suppose it will be hard to find any large expenditure, every part of which is quite judicious. I am quite willing to give him the credit he deserves. But I am not willing that any man should stand up in this House and condemn the policy of the Con-



servatives in this regard. And I should think the Liberals would be ashamed to refer to the North-west in connection with immigration; for, as I said, the speeches of the Liberal leaders were used in England, and on the continent of Europe to keep immigrants out of Canada and bring them into the United States. Reference has been made to the Barr colonists. It was my privilege to see a large number of those colonists and on a previous occasion I told the House that I found them to be a very desirable lot of immigrants. And, in this connection, I may say that there is a good deal of fault found by some people with regard to the classes of immigrants. But let it be remembered that the men who raise the straight objection with regard to the importation of mechanics, the importation of labourers, the importation of farm labourers and farmers-these people, not so many years ago, themselves landed on the docks in this country. I want that to be borne in mind. If we are ever to make this country great we must encourage all desirable classes of immigrants. We must keep out the undesirable-especially those physically undesirable, those diseased in mind or body. But, so long as a man has a clear head and an honest heart, I care not if he has not a dollar, let him be brought in and he will find the means of making an honest living. So far as the Barr colonists are concerned, they are a superior lot, and, so far as the colony is concerned, a finer tract of land than that upon which they are settled is not to be found in the Dominion of Canada, or on the continent of North America. What I wish to ask the minister, and I shall be pleased if he will answer me when I am through is, whether there are any large tracts of land set apart in the North-west for Nestorians, Arabians, or any other class not of our own people.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No.


Samuel Hughes: I presume that policy will not be followed any more. I understood that certain lands had been set apart for a number of Poles.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No.


Samuel Hughes: Some gentlemen have" criticised the Doukhobors. I noticed that as soon as the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) came in, the hon. member for West Assiniboia became more docile and assumed a much milder tone than he had previously done. Now, we must admit. of course, that when the tide of immigration is large, a certain number will come in who are ignorant and undesirable. But I do want to say this, that the Galicians have taught the people of Canada to know the value of our poor lands. The hon. member for Alberta knows well that along the south shore of the North Saskatchewan river are regions that no person, even the Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
most enthusiastic and optimistic Canadian, ever imagined were fit for settlement ; yet these people have gone in there among those hills and have shown us that a rolling hill country, which most of us thought to be useless for settlement, can be converted into a prosperous country. The people are now living contented and happy on their own homes ; they are as comfortable and as prosperous, to all appearances, as any that can be found in the older settled parts of Canada.


Mr. HACKETT.: I would ask the hon. minister if there is any agent in Prince Edward Island to direct persons who want to leave that province to take up their home in the North-west ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No.


Edward Hackett: I think it is very desirable that some person should be appointed in that province for that purpose, because there are numbers of our young men who drift away from our island to the United States who, if they were properly directed, would go to western Canada. I think it would be good policy for this government to appoint an agent in Prince Edward Island for the purpose of directing our people who desire to make their homes in the west, and if possible to procure for them a lower fare on the railways than they can now procure. The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Fraser) told us last night of the great surplus of labour down in the lower provinces. He said it was impossible to find a man to do a day's work, they were all so busily engaged ; that times were good, every person was employed, and the man who desired to procure labour couldn't find it there. Now, the hon. gentleman was certainly drawing on his imagination. We all remember that when men were wanted to reap the harvest in the North-west Territories, and when there was a reduced railway fare, and a chance for our young men in the lower provinces to take a trip to the North-west and to view the country, the trains were overcrowded with those who desired to go out there and work a couple of months for $40 or $50. Now, if they had had employment at home they would not have done that. I am sorry to bring this up before the committee, but the truth must be stated, that twb years ago the trains were overloaded with these young men from the eastern provinces who were seeking employment in the west. We remember that when they found themselves there they were abused, no accommodation was provided for them. One would think that after they had left their homes and travelled thousands of miles to work on the farms, they would have found at least a couple of months' work. I thiuk the government should have done something to assist those young men. Many of our young men drift away to the United States. The Minister of Finance said a few days

ago that there were always some adventurers, some enterprising spirits who would leave the country. Sir, lion, gentlemen opposite have changed their tune. I remember when, in this parliament, blue ruin was preached by the hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when we were told that the young men were being driven out of the country by the policy of the late government. There was no talk then of adventurers and enterprising spirits. But if we have now adventurers and enterprising young men who go away to seek homes for themselves, the least the government can do is to assist them in settling in the Northwest. But they will not do that, they would rather spend the money of this country in bringing in Doukhobors and others who are a menace to the welfare of our people. The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has spoken about what was done under the late government. I remember very well, in this parliament, When every effort was made to assist immigration into Canada, when that great Liberal-Conservative party, under the leadership of Sir John A. Macdonald and his able lieutenants, were building that great railway to open up that country and to take in immigrants, knowing that we had in that far west millions of acres of land uncultivated waiting for the settler. Why, Sir, some of the very people who went in there then now occupy seats on the government benches. We were told the other night by the hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) that the only thing that was done during the regime of the Liberal-Conservatives was to take in some Jew pedlars, or something of that kind. Let me tell you, Mr. Chairman, that more than Jew pedlars were taken in. There is not an hon. gentleman representing a constituency in the North-west to-day who did not go in there under the regime of the Liberal-Conservatives. The hon. gentleman who addressed us a moment ago went in there in the days of the Liberal-Conservative party. The hon. member for Saskatchewan said he had been there for twenty-two years.


Thomas Walter Scott: That was before the Conservatives were in power.


Edward Hackett: The hon. gentleman
himself went in there as an assistant to Nicholas Flood Davin, at Regina, and he knows it.


Thomas Walter Scott: The hon. gentleman is quite mistaken.


Edward Hackett: The hon. gentleman
was there when the Conservatives were in power and he is now representing a constituency that should be represented by the honoured dead. These hon. gentlemen talk about what they are doing now and what was done before. It is true that the Liberal-Conservative party opened up the great North-west. It is true that they built, 216J
through their statesmanship and energy, the great railway that now spans the continent from east to west. It is due to their energy that these hon. gentlemen are participating in the blessings and benefits that we have obtained from Providence through the energy of the Liberal-Conservative party. I desire again to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior to the fact that if we had an agent down in Prince Edward Island, where hundreds of our young men are leaving our shores each year to take up their abodes in the United States, because we are circumscribed in our limits, great good would result. The land is all taken up and is occupied by farmers. When young men grow up they must leave the farm and take up other occupations. If the hon. minister would endeavour to assist these young men, not in the way of paying them any money or anything of that kind, but in the way of obtaining for them during the summer excursion rates over the railway in order that they might go to the North-west, it would be greatly to the advantage of Canada, because one young Canadian from the east or from any part of the country going into the North-west Territories, having a knowledge of farming, and having the experience that is acquired by a young man who lives on a farm, is worth a dozen or two of those Doukhobors that the hon. minister has been paying $20 a head for during the last few years.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he has any system in his department as to the charge for living expenses, horse-hire, and expenses of that kind. Is it a general principle in his department that employees are allowed to charge up to the country the cost of accident insurance policies ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The expenses to w-liich the hon. gentleman has been referring simply consists of travelling expenses. Of course, horse-hire is charged up when the official is travelling on public business. In case an official of the department has transportation from the railway companies, as some of them have, and travels on a pass and does not, therefore, charge any railway fare, he has no right to action in case of an accident, and the department pay for the accident insurance. He would have no right of accident against the railway company in case of accident on account of the fact that he is travelling on a pass.


Andrew B. Ingram: The Department of Marine and Fisheries has a certain schedule of living expenses, and officials such as fishery
inspectors used to make their charges in accordance with that schedule. They must charge so much for horse-hire and no more, and so much for meals and no more. I am

*bound to say, when looking over this item .of horse-hire, that $25 a day for horse-hire is too much. I find a charge here for seven days' horse-hire, $75. There is no place in Canada where a man would require to pay $25 a day for horse-hire. 1 would not mention this gentleman's name if it had not been mentioned before, but I find that Mr. W. W. Cory charged for accident insurance $35. I beg to differ from the hon. minister in regard to that matter. If a man occupies a position under the government at a high salary-I do not care whether he has transportation from the railways or not-he has no light to expect the government to pay for his accident insurance policy. I do not think the government are justified in paying it. Twenty-five dollars a day for horse-nire is far beyond all reason.


William Roche: How many horses ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not care if there were one or two horses. When we find that this gentleman purchases an eiderdown robe at $25, 1 think he is going a little too far. If the 'country is going to pay for everything like that I think this high toned gentleman should be contented with a little less than these articles, the expenditure on [DOT]which we see detailed in the Auditor General's Report. I would advise the hon. minister to carefully peruse that report and prevent items of this kind being put into it. If the opposition were to do their duty strictly to the letter, they would carefully go through all these items and take up the time of the House in finding fault with them. Surely it is not necessary to do more than simply draw the attention of the minister to some of these items which are extravagant and unreasonable and which, I think, ought not to appear.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: The department's attention has been drawn to this matter by the Auditor General. This gentleman did not travel on a pass at all. He has perpetrated what I call a fraud. He did not even buy a return ticket, and the Auditor General drew the attention of the deputy minister to the fact that he had taken $40 or $50 out of the country that he was not entitled to. It is nothing short of a fraud perpetrated upon the country that this official of the government should be able to take out of the pockets of the people that sum of money ? The attention of the department has been drawn to the fact that he not only got his fare, amounting to between $300 and $400, but that lie bought a ticket each way, not a return ticket. The Auditor General drew the attention of the deputy minister to the fact that he might have bought a return ticket and saved $40 or $50.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR The general principle is that where an Mr. INGRAM.
officer has transportation we pay for his accident insurance policy. In this particular case my deputy tells me that Mr. Cory was charged an excess price f r his accident insurance policy on account of having to travel to the Ydkon in the discharge of his official duties. Under the conditions of the policy he would require to pay an additional amount because he went out of a certain territory.


Andrew B. Ingram: There are others who have to pay that.
The,' MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. That is the explanation which is furnished to me. The officer had to hire a team and according to the scale for other things $25 a day would not be out .of the way.


Andrew B. Ingram: In some departments they fix a limit per day for horse-hire and it seems to work well. With respect to accident insurance there is a rumour in this city that a certain gentleman takes advantage of his position to intimidate government employees in order to get their insurance; that their insurance is dropped in other companies and this man gets the insurance by reason of his position. That is common rumour in Ottawa and if the minister will inquire from the insurance companies he will find that the statement I make is pretty nearly correct.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I could not very well inquire unless I have the name.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will give the minister the name privately.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Very well.


Richard Blain: Why was $8,000 paid to the Rake St. John Railway and Colonization Company ?
The' MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. This company does a considerable amount of immigration work and this annual grant has been made to them for some years past. The subject was discussed fully the other evening. They made a report showing what they have done.


Richard Blain: Where can we see that report.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is not printed, but I can bring it down if the hon. gentleman desires.
Government of- the North-west Territories, $3,000.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is perfectly understood of course that all these items can be discussed again.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is a vote of $250,000 for the Northwest Territories and everything in connection with the matter may be discussed on that.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This vote of $250,000 is an allowance to the North-west government for the year that has expired, and as I fancy there will not be much opposition to it, and as it can be discussed in the supplementary estimates I would like to get the vote passed as it is urgently needed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It has been arranged that that item should stand.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not wish to disturb any arrangement.


Samuel Hughes: I only express the hope that when the minister brings down his votes for the North-west Territories, in addition to the $250,000, he will see that they are given a little extra, because he must know that they require a much larger grant than they have had in the past for roads and bridges.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I may say that we propose to treat them very liberally.
Some resolutions reported.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved the adjournment of the House.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Can the hon. gentleman say what business will be taken up on Monday ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: After private Bills, which is the first order of business, we will take up a number of the Bills on the Order paper, and if we reach Supply, we will continue with the estimates of the Minister of the Interior. Then there are a few items remaining in the supplementary estimates affecting the various departments, and if possible we would like to pass these.


George Taylor: Will the Grank Trunk private Bill be proceeded with on Monday V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That is in the hands of the hon. member in charge of it, but I should think not.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.20 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 20, 1903.