1903-10-09

[Stage Direction]
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved that the Order for :
House again in Committee on Bill (No. 217) respecting penitentiaries.-The Minister of Jus. tice.
be discharged.
Motion agreed to.
The PRIME MINISTER moved that the Order for :
Second reading of Bill (No. 251) to amend the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act.-The Minister of Finance.
be discharged.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The item on the Order paper for leave to introduce Bill to amend the Dominion Lands Act (the Minister of the Interior) was dropped.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Anse aux Gascons-extension of wharf, &c.,

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to extend the existing wharf to reach 13 feet depth at low water spring tide, to permit the steamers plying on the Baie des Chaleurs, between Gaspe Basin and Dalhousie, to call at all times. This is in Bonaventure county, and the total cost will be $19,000.
Anse aux Gris Fonds-improvements at mouth of river. $2,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is the estimated cost. It is practically to give the fishermen a harbour of refuge.


Mr. MORIN.: What county is that in ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Gasp6.
Anse St. Jean-extension of wharf, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is the total cost of the work, as estimated by the chief engineer. It is to give a depth of from 8 to 16 feet of water at low tide, and it is in Chicoutimi and Saguenay.
Barachoia de Malbaie-breakwater, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in the county of Gaspe, and the estimated cost of the work is $16,500. It is for the construction of a breakwater.
air. SPROULE. Is this a new work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is the first expenditure on a new work.
air. SPROULE. What is the size of that place ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a very flourishing parish, with a population of 1,300. There is a sand bar there running parallel to the coast line which it is proposed to remove, so as to give boats access to the inner basin. It is a most important fishing - centre, and we have had petitions from the inhabitants praying for this work.
air. HACKETT. Might I ask the kon. minister if he has considered the case of Skinner's Pond in Prince Edward Island ? He is very desirous of promoting the fishing industry, and I can tell him that in the vicinity of Skinner's Pond there is the most important fishing industry in Canada.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I would draw the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that Skinner's Pond item was passed a day or two ago.


Mr. HACKETT.: I beg to differ. There is no item for Skinner's Pond, and I would like to ask the hon. minister if he will not do something to assist the fishermen there ?
421}


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This matter was brought to my attention, and instructions have already been given to the chief engineer of the department to report upon it.
Bonaventure East-breakwater, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to provide for the construction of a breakwater in Bonaventure county, 700 feet long, 20 feet wide, and to give six feet at low water, spring tide. The total estimated cost of the work is $20,000. It is a new work.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: What is the use of a breakwater which will give only six feet of water ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At the present time a sand bar forms at the mouth of the river, and prevents the fishermen getting into the river, which forms a harbour at that point. The construction of this breakwater will prevent the bar forming, and will give them six feet of water at low spring tide, so that they can take their vessels in.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: What is the population of that place V


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).: The population of the township of Bonaventure is 2,682. It is one of the largest parishes on the Baie des Chaleurs.


Mr. SPROULE.: When we come to an item for a new work, I think the minister should tell us something about the size of the place, its requirements, why the work is needed, and what we are committing the country to in commencing the undertaking. In the province of Ontario a township is about ten miles square, and a harbour or dock usually accommodates two or three townships or more. There is no township in our part of the country with a population of less than 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000. No one would contend that the fact that a townsip had a population of 2,000 or 3,000 would be any justification for the building of a breakwater. I take it that the people in this township are farmers. There may be a few who fish ; but, so far as I can judge from the information given, this breakwater is for fishing purposes, and not for commercial purposes.


Charles Marcil: I may say that this township extends wholly along the sea-shore. The townships in the county of Bonaventure are not as they are in Ontario; they are all along the sea-sliore. All these 2,862 people practically will be benefited by this breakwater. It is true, some farming is carried on in the parish, but the main occupation of the people is fishing and lumbering. Probably one hundred fishermen will i>e benefited by this breakwater. The township of St. Bonaventure, by which name it is popularly known, or Hamilton town-

ship, as it is called in the census is one of the largest parishes of the district. At present there is no breakwater or wharf, and the fishermen there have never had any assistance of any kind. They are exposed to storms, especially in the fall, and have no protection whatever for their boats. The steamers that pass there have to land in open boats both people and goods at their inconvenience and sometimes loss. It sometimes happens that steamers pass without being able to stop, and the people have been asking for this improvement for the past thirty years. St. Bonaventure is bound to increase and the time has arrived when something has to be done. In rear of the parish of St. Bonaventure are the famous Robltail'le limits, 40 square miles, given to the family of the late lieutenant governor of the province of Quebec, which are reckoned among the most valuable timber limits in the province. They are still held by the Robitaille family, but in a short time it is expected that they will pass into the hands of a lumber company and be exploited, thus furnishing considerable employment. All are unanimous in the opinion that this work should be done at once.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the size of the fishing fleet and to what extent is the industry prosecuted ?


Charles Marcil: There are about 100 to 125 fishermen in each parish. The importance of the locality was recognized by the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries when he had built at St. Bonaventure the first bait freezing establishment erected in the province of Quebec. The local House passed a special law authorizing the fishermen of the parish to form a bait freezing association at this point.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member has not told us how many vessels there are in the fishing fleet. Here is a township with a population of 2,862, and we have $10 per head of that population spent at one place. There are 125 fishermen, which would mean $20 per head spent on one small hatchery, and we do not know to what extent the industry is prosecuted and whether there is any commerce carried on there or not. These things may not appear to necessitate a very heavy outlay at the time, but they must be kept up permanently in the future. There ought to be a pretty strong justification before we commence new undertakings of this kind. Here we are proposing to spend about $20,000 to build a breakwater for a harbour, which has not much of a village or town behind it, and only a few fishermen. I am not underestimating the value of the fishermen, because they are a very important class and deserve consideration as well as any other, but if along our shores or lakes- take Georgian bay if you like-in every village where there is a number of fishermen, a breakwater or a wharf is to be built, there will be no end to the expenditure. We Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).
are committing ourselves to a dangerous precedent.


Charles Marcil: This is not an ordinary fishing station. It is a township with a population of 3,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They are not all fishermen.


Charles Marcil: One of the chief industries is the fishing industry. The amount may seem high, but unfortunately the coasts of the Baie des Chaleurs are very shallow' and wharfs have to be built much longer than they otherwise would. If we were to build a $5,000 wharf it would be carried away with the first storm, and the most economical plan is to make a substantial work which will last two or three generations.


Edward Hackett: How far is that from Gaspe ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: 1G0 miles.


Edward Hackett: I have travelled up that river, the St. Lawrence, and I know that frequently the fishermen of that section labour under great difficulties in getting their products to the market, and any assistance this parliament can give those poor hard working men should be given freely and without comment.
Bois Brfllfi-training pier, &c., $2,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for a pier 90 feet long and 15 feet wide. It is for the purpose of confining the Witter of the river into one channel in order to give sufficient water for the boats to come in.
Cacouna-extension of wharf, &c., $2,300.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you require to extend it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: To get into deep water. The extension will be 75 feet and this is to complete.
Caplan-breakwater, $5,000.
Mi'. HACKETT. What county is this in ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Bonaventure. It is to make provision for the construction of a breakwater 40 feet long and 20 feet wide. The estimated cost is $15,000. It is said in the report that there is no shelter of any kind for the fishing boats. This is also for the purpose of allowing a larger class of boats to engage in the fishing industry at this point. It is also stated in the report that there is at this point an extensive shipping of ties and shingles, and that twenty large vessels, including three barques, loaded there in 1902.


Edward Hackett: Is the work on the Baie des Chaleurs or ou the gulf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: On the Baie des Chaleurs.


Edward Hackett: About what part of it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In Bona venture county.


Edward Hackett: How big is that ?


Charles Marcil: Perhaps I may be allowed to give a little further explanation with regard to the locality. I may say in answer to the hon. member for West Prince (Mr. Hackett) that Bonaventure is 150 miles long. GaspC is about 300 miles long.


Robert Laird Borden: How much of it is not covered with breakwaters ?


Charles Marcil: Since confederation, on this Bonaventure coast-line of 150 miles, three small wharfs had been erected ; and out of 19 parishes practically 16 have been left for these 35 years without any protection whatever for the fishermen -no wharfs, no breakwaters, and nothing to facilitate the carrying on of their calling. The parish of St. Charles de Caplan adjoins that of Bonaventure. The census of 1901 shows that this has a population of 1,990. There is this remarkable about Caplan that, in tlie rear a new parish has sprung up, called St. Alphonse de Muselyvilie. This was founded by a Belgian priest, who brought out a Belgian colony and began the first extensive effort to settle the interior of that immense peninsula of 10,000 square miles. This parish of St. Alphonse de Muselyvilie has a population of 900, a resident parish priest, a church and all the facilities and advantages to become a growing and prosperous centre. This population will utilize this new wharf which is to be erected near.the parish church in the middle of the parish coast-line. The fishermen there have now no protection whatever. When they return from fishing they have to get together fifteen or twenty men to haul their boats on the shore, on the approach of the storm, and this work has to be done sometimes in the day-time and sometimes at night. When the steamer passes, people coming ashore have to be lauded on floats. St. Charles de Caplan is a centre and will be the outlet for a considerable trade. The Quebec government last year spent $1,000 in improving the road there, which will make this more a centre than ever. So, I think the expenditure is fully justified. It will have the effect, within the next four or five years, of greatly increasing the business which is done through this point.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would be glad if the minister would make up a list of the new works he is commencing and the counties in which they are, together with an estimate of the cost of each work when concluded. I presume he has not such a list at hand, but he could probably have it prepared in a short time. We are commencing
many new undertakings on grounds of very doubtful wisdom, if this may be taken as a sample. This work will cost $15,000 or $20,000, and it is to be built at a place where there are only a few fishing boats and about
1.000	people.


Charles Marcil: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) will allow me, the parish of St. Charles de Caplan has a population of over 1,900, and in the rear of it is the parish of St. Alphonse de Muselyvilie, with over 800. Both of these parishes will benefit by this wharf. If the amount seems to be large, it is because these wharfs must be built strongly enough to resist the action of the sea. If we were building wharfs on rivers or inland lakes a small expenditure would be sufficient ; but it is no use to erect a wharf at a cost of $4,000 or $5,000 in such a place as this. One storm would carry it away. There was a storm about a month ago at Port Daniel, and the wharf there, a substantial wharf, begun under the late administration, was damaged to the extent of $2,400 in one night.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The outlay would indicate a substantial wharf. I do not object to its being made substantial, because if the work is to be done at ail, it should be done well. But what I complain of is that heavy expenditures are being undertaken, not only for the present, but for the future, upon grounds of questionable wisdom. I can only judge of this by comparing it with my own section of the country. I find important towns, the homes of large fishing fleets and the centres of fine agricultural districts, and with populations three times that mentioned by the hon. gentleman, yet, if it is proposed to spend even $10,000 on a new work, the answer is that the place is too small to justify such a work. Take, for instance, the town of Thornbury, which has a population of 3,000, and has adjacent townships with a population of
15.000	or 20,000. This place is one of the parts of the Georgian bay and the centre of an important commerce. Yet, it would be very difficult to get the government to grant $15,000 to commence a work there. And, even with the most urgent need of commerce and the fishing industry, it is difficult to get the government to grant even $4,000 or $5,000 to keep in proper repair works that may have been built at any of these points. It will be seen that it is not only the amount we are now voting, but the amount necessary to complete the work that must be considered. And. after that, the work must be maintained, so that we are committing ourselves to a never-ending expenditure.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Sproule's) suggestion is a very proper and reasonable one. 1 thought I had a list such as lie

speaks of, for I desired to have it prepared myself. I do not think that these estimates cover more new works for the province of Quebec than for any other. It is true, as my hon. friend says, that there is no use in spending money on these works at all unless we endeavour to make them substantial. We ought also to understand thoroughly what we are undertaking. With that view I have given the estimates of the chief engineer, which I think are correct as to the total liability to be incurred in each case. My hon. friend will see that out of the ten votes that we have passed for the province of Quebec, only three incur any liability over the amount of the vote, and that the total liability in these cases is only $36,000. I will have a list prepared such as the hon. gentleman desires.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Let me ask the hon. member for Bona venture (Mr. Marcil) how it is that the names of the places that he has given in his county do not appear in the last census.


Charles Marcil: When the county of Bonaventure was originally surveyed it was divided up into townships, and the names of the townships appear in the census. The ecclesiastical authorities have since subdivided these townships into parishes, giving them religious names. For instance, you have St. Bonaventure, representing the township of Hamilton; St. Charles, representing the township of Cap-lan. The member for Dorchester is aware of the system of parishes in Quebec. These divisions are made under the parochial system.


Mr. LENNOX.: On several occasions, though not recently, I have expressed my opposition to this system of expending public money. I do not wish to take particular exception to this item more than to a large class of similar items that are constantly brought before us. We have necessarily to incur enormous expenditures of a national character. There may come a time when we can, better than now, apply public money to what may be denominated local purposes. I have endeavoured to think this matter- out, and tried to see whether tiie propositions I have heretofore enunciated are fair, that is, whether a work which does not partake of a character which makes it for the general advantage of the Dominion as a whole, is one upon which we are justified in expending federal money. There may be works which cannot be said to affect the whole Dominion, on which the public money of the Dominion can legitimately be applied. But speaking as a rule, and it is a good rule for us to observe, I think that when a work cannot be regarded as a Dominion work distinct from a provincial work, as a Dominion work distinct from a county work or a purely local work, we are not justified in expending


Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.: public money upon it. Down by the seashore I have noticed that a good deal of money is spent on harbours, and in procuring facilities for fishermen, and in that instance, when seeing that it will affect more than one province, we can justifiably expend money upon it. It may not be necessary in this case that the money has to be beneficial to more than one province before it can be justifiably spent by the federal parliament. For instance, if you have a public work to be done in some town in the province of Ontario, we might reply to the request of the county council and say: We won't give you a grant for this work. The county council says : It does not affect the county as a whole, therefore we cannot give any public money for it. Now these works, such as the improvement of harbours and small streams, the building of wharfs in places where there is practically no commerce, no interprovincial commerce at all events, are matters of local concern. I know of cases in which the county council would say :	It is a good
local work, it benefits the town where it is being expended, but it does not affect the county as a whole. In these instances I think there should not be a grant of one dollar by the county council, not one dollar by the township council either ; yet they come to this parliament and obtain grants. On what ground ? The only ground upon which they can possibly be justified is that they are a national work in some sense or form. Now I enter my protest against that principle. There may be some qualification of the doctrine, but whilst we have large public enterprises to the fore, whilst we have the necessity for a great expenditure on transportation and other great public works which affect Canada as a whole, whilst we have these and have not sufficient money to satisfy those demands-as we know we have not sufficient money- and when we are going into a large increased expenditure, this year mounting up by the millions, at a rate which is unprecedented, I say that the Minister of Public Works ought not to undertake this long list of new expenditures where it is absolutely certain that these matters cannot be said to be for the general advantage of Canada in any proper sense which would justify us in expending federal money upon them.	.
Now here we have a population, I understand, of some 1,900 in the two parishes. My hon. friend from East Grey has referred to the province of Ontario. I do not care whether it is the province of Ontario or the province of Quebec, neither does my hon. friend, except as an illustration. Take, for instance, the town of Barrie. There was difficulty in getting a grant of $3,000 for a wharf at the town of Barrie. The town of Barrie, now including Allan-dale, has a population of some 6,000, and is rapidly growing. New enterprises are be-

lug launched there this season, and we have difficulty in getting $3,000


Mr. MCCARTHY.: On what does the hon. gentleman base his statement that there is difficulty in getting a vote ?


Haughton Lennox: If the hon. gentleman disclaims any effort in that behalf, I withdraw the statement entirely. Probably the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) is perfectly right in suggesting that there was no difficulty in obtaining this vote, inasmuch as, though it was voted several years ago, it has not been implemented by any work done up to the present time. Probably I had better leave the town of Barrie and go a little further down to the new portion of the riding of the hon. member for North Simcoe, where there is a wharf spoken of as the Hawkestone wharf, in the township of Oro. That is another flagrant instance of an expenditure of public money for a purely local purpose. I venture to .say that, except to satisfy a few men in that locality, there is no justification for the expenditure of one dollar of public money upon the Hawkestone wharf. There is no need for it unless it be for a few excursionists who land there from time to time, but very infrequently. This is another instance illustrating the fact that this government is squandering the people's money on wharfs, and what are denominated public works, here and there, for no other purpose, that is self-evident, except to influence the votes of the people in the neighbourhood.	[DOT]
Mr. McCarthy. I do not desire to start an acrimonious discussion but one statement of the hon. gentleman I cannot allow to go unchallenged. His statement about the difficulty of obtaining a grant for the wharf at Barrie of which he spoke is not a correct statement. It has been in the estimates since 1900 ; the difficulty was to decide upon tiie selection of a site. As soon as the situation was agreed upon the work was undertaken. The lumber is now being hauled there aud the work is about to be commenced. In reference to the statement that there was no demand for the Oro wharf, I entirely repudiate that statement on behalf of the township recently added to North Sim-eoe. The hon. gentleman knows very well that his own town of Barrie profits very largely by that wharf. The few excursionists of whom he speaks are farmers who, owing to this cheap transportation come to Barrie more frequently than they otherwise would and sell and buy goods to the advantage of both the townspeople and the farmers.


Haughton Lennox: I deny entirely that a reference to the Hawkestone wharf is in any sense out of order. It is perfectly in order in discussing these estimates to refer to the various works undertaken by the government as illustrations of the fact that we
are not spending money on the works that are properly within the purview of this parliament. When the hon. member says that the. people of Oro are very largely benefited by being able to bring produce to Barrie by the casual boats that call at that wharf from time to time during the excursion season, I can only say that he is not as well informed as perhaps he will be when he becomes more familiar with the people of Oro. There is a railway also passes through the hamlet of Hawkestone and the people who wish to go to market, who do not drive into Barrie, avail themselves of that railway and do not rely upon the fact that once oV twice or three times a week an excursion boat may call at the Hawkestone wharf. In regard to Barrie wharf, I may say that the money has been voted for many years. I am not going to enter into the somewhat difficult question between the hon. member (Mr. McCarthy) and the mayor of Barrie as to the reasons why that money has not been expended. I leave these gentlemen to fight that out among themselves. We have, however, the fact that the money in the first instance was granted just previous to an election, and as it was intended to serve the purpose of another election the work was put off, but a change has come over the spirit of the dream of the hon. member for North Simcoe, who is no longer seeking to represent his native town of Barrie, and so it will no longer serve election purposes as effectively as was expected at the time.
Chambord wharf, $2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this a new work, and if so, what is the estimated cost ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total cost of this work is estimated at $8,000. It is in the large district of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, and you must recognize that the situation there is somewhat different from that in ordinary parts of the Dominion and of Ontario. The country is settling up and these people have no railway accommodation ; this is the only means they have of getting out their produce ; their only means of transportation is by water. Several of these works are for the purpose of improving the means of transportation in order that the settlers may bring in materials they require and ship out their products.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it a village or a fishing station ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It has a population of 1,020 people along the coast.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it the intention of the government to have the works undertaken by public tender and contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All of these new works, these large works, are undertaken by contract.

Chateau Richer-harbour improvements, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This item is for harbour improvements at Chateau Richer, which is in the county of Montmorency, Quebec. It is proposed to remove rocks and to improve the passage along the north shore so as to permit barges or batteaux of eight to ten feet to pass safely over the bar and also for the construction of a small crib-work.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I really think it is outrageous to vote $4,000 for that work at Chateau Richer. I know that place thoroughly, and I can say that steamboats never stop there ; boats stop there only when they are forced to do so by a storm. It is a poor place for a boat to land at any time, because a bar extends out into the river for about two miles. The only boats that go there are those which are engaged in the hauling of cord-wood to Quebec. These boats ply between this point and Quebec and they draw four, five or sometimes six feet of water. This is the only purpose for which a wharf is required, and there are two wharfs there already.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Hon. gentlemen sometimes insinuate that these works are assigned to different localities for political purposes. I do not suppose my hon. friend will say that the hon. member for Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) has succeeded in having works given to his constituency as a personal favour. Strong representations have been made to me that this was a very important work. It is represented that most of the inhabitants of Chateau Richer are owners of sailing vessels which are engaged in carrying stone, fire-wood, lime and other materials from points below Quebec to that city, taking back supplies of all kinds from Quebec. It appears that there are there thirty-five boats of a total carrying capacity of 3,500 tons. I am not personally acquainted with the place, but it was on the representations that I brought down this estimate for the purpose of making this improvement. It appeared to me that it was very important in the interests of the population, which numbers between 2,000 and 3,000, and of this very considerable trade which is now going on I should think under the circumstances that this would be a very desirable improvement.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I do not consider politics in dealing with these matters ; I know very well who represents that county in this House, but that makes no difference to me,
I am not speaking from political motives. I do not know any place in the province of Quebec or in Canada that has better railway facilities than Chateau Richer. In summer street cars run through there every ten minutes and in the winter there are three or four trains a day. The settlement is only about twelve miles below Quebec, and I


Robert Franklin Sutherland: know well that the only boats which go there go to load stone or cord-wood. You cannot get steamboats to land there because the channel of the river is on the south side right along the Island of Orleans, and when a steamer passes this point it is three or four miles away from Chateau Richer.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Does my hon. friend (Mr. Morin) know that Chateau Richer is an exceedingly important point
because of its impox'tant stone quarries and also as a centre for the distribution of cord-wood. A very large proportion of the cord-wood used in the city of Quebec comes from that locality. In additions to that, as I said, there are very large stone quarries there. I suppose that about 50 per cent of all the stone that is used on macadamized streets in Quebec comes from that locality. It is practically impossible, under existing conditions, for the boats that go there to get into the wharf on account of certain obstacles that exist at that particular point. My hon. friend says that there are good railway facilities there, but I do not think the hon. gentleman would imagine, that they can carry stone or lime or wood on an electric railway. There is no freighting done by the electric railway there, as a matter of fact. As to the steam railway, it is the old story of the competition between water and rail carriage, with the additional disadvantage in this case, that it is a very short haul. It is not twelve miles, but eight miles, to the Montmorency Falls, and Chateau Richer is the second parish below.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: How much more than eight miles is it ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is nearer twenty miles to this wharf than it is twelve. With respect to the freighting of stone and wood by railway, there would be the additional disadvantage of the high terminal charges at Quebec. Chateau Richer has been a very important centre for a great many years. I have in my own county a place called Beauport at which there is less business done than at Chateau Richer, but the Conservative government built a wharf there, and this government has repaired it although Beauport is within a very few miles of the city of Quebec. If there is any expenditure justifiable in these estimates it is the expenditure for Chateau Richer. It is an important centre which serves a section of the country which is rapidly growing.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I do not rise to prevent this vote passing. If you have a whole lot of money! to waste, go ahead and do it.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Thanks.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will this complete the work.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is for the purpose of removing boulders and obstructions at the entrance to the harbour

and in the harbour itself. Of course it is not a great harbour like Quebec ; it is a bay on the north shore of the St. Lawrence and it affords very convenient shipping facilities to the people.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Go ahead ; it is all right.
Desjardins-Allumette wharf, $7,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a new' work, and the total cost is estimated by the chief engineer at $10,000. There is a small pier there now, and this is for the purpose of giving improved landing and shipping facilities.
Desjardins-Allumette wharf, $7,500.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: In what county is this ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In Pontiac county.
Douglastown-isolated block, $6,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What do you mean by nu isolated block ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is quite a large and important work and it is in the county of Gaspe. It is to (build an isolated block 450 feet long, 24 feet: wide at the top and from 26 to 30 feet high, giving 12J feet at low water springtide. The total cost of this work will be $30,000. This is the commencement.
Gatineau river-protection of east bank below Canadian Pacific Railway bridge including purchase of land, $3,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the nature of that work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The river was said to be diverted by some government works and an action was brought in the courts, and the Dominion was condemned to pay damages. This is to pay' the balance of the claim and to purchase a certain amount of laud to prevent further claims. It would save a great deal of money if the whole thing had been bought in the first place.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will this cover the wTliole expense?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is the whole expense estimated by the government engineer.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Including the cost of the land ?
Grande Riviftre wharf-new covering, $800.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Where is the Grande Riviere?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
Jean-Baptiste Morin: All right ; go ahead. If it is not in Gaspe county it is pretty sure to be in Bonaventure.
Kamouraska-extension of pier, $4,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to extend the wharf at Kamouraska,
so as to give a depth of 16 feet at high water.


Robert Laird Borden: What boats call at this wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say I have not the information.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: If the minister will allow me, I will tell him. The hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Angers) got the government to put on a boat from Malbaie to Kamouraska. That boat is of no use whatever. It only makes a few trips in the summer and none in the winter ; and on the Kamouraska side of the river the govern-men built a wharf only to please a few of their friends.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All I know is that this work was commenced in 1887, and there has been over $23,000 spent upon it. Therefore, I assume that the work is of some importance, and that it will be of great advantage to the local trade, which suffers at present great disadvantages for the want of a sufficient depth of water. This is the total expenditure. There is a petition from the people in favour of the work.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there really no definite information as to how often a boat calls ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am informed that there is no regular line of boats.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the size of the place, and what kind of trade is done ? If only a tramp boat calls there occasionally, it seems to 'be doubtful wisdom to make this expenditure.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Kamouraska is a very important village. In the summer time it is a large watering place. It is the county town of Kamouraska, and up to a few years ago was the judicial seat of the district of Kamouraska, which covered a group of counties. Some years ago the judicial seat was removed to RiviSre du Loup, which is a more growing place. The trade of Kamouraska is chiefly that of a summer resort.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Hear, hear ; we have to pay the expenses of people going in bathing.


The PRIME MINISTER.: There are mail boats plying between this place and Quebec. My hon. friend will remember that this work was not commenced by the present government, but by a government of which he was a supporter.


Edward Cochrane: And I dare say the right hon. gentleman found fault with it.


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, I did not. I never found fault with any good expenditure.


Edward Cochrane: That is always the answer we get-that the other government did it. The right hon. gentleman got into power because he said we did wrong ; and now, when we criticise anything, he says it was done by us. I can understand that a place might be important enough to have a wharf in days gone by, when there might have been a large local trade in lumber or something of that kind ; but all the conditions may since have changed. The right hon. gentleman tells us that this work is principally for a summer watering place ; and we have to go back to our constituents and tell them that we are voting money from the public exchequer to enable people to go in bathing and to accommodate some boats which carry them food. It is not a work required, for the commerce of the country, because we understand that a steamer calls there only once in a while.


The PRIME MINISTER.: This work amounts to no more to-day than it did before. It was commenced, and it has to be completed or left in an unfinished condition.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The right hon. gentleman's own explanation might be a justification for the commencement of an expenditure years ago which it would not be wise to continue at the present time. He tells us that this place was once a county town and the centre of a judicial district, but that other places having arisen in the meantime, it is not now the county town nor the centre of a judicial centre. There may have been a very important trade done there when the expenditure was commenced, which is now transferred to other places. I notice by the census that the village of Kamouraska has a population of only 578. It may have had a couple of thousand when it was the county town, and there may have been a justification for the expenditure then; but that would be no justification for continuing it if the trade and population have left the place, and the only business now done is by casual excursionists or by people who make a summer resort of the place.
Lake St. John-dredging, $3,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the maintenance and operation of our dredge on Lake St. John.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you have a number of special items for dredges and also half a dozen general items ? What is the reason they cannot all be dealt with either as particular items or as general items ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think there is any good reason. It is inconvenient to both the House and the department to have the estimates prepared in this way, and I hope in future to have the items for dredging classified in such a way as to put them in one group, so that we can see at a glance what amount of money is voted for dredging.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: 


Robert Laird Borden: Is this part of some general scheme of dredging to be carried out at lake St. John, and what public interest can be advanced by spending money for that purpose ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The settlement and development of trade around lake St. John have been increasing very rapidly. The dredging is done at the mouths of the rivers emptying into lake St. John in order to improve the approaches to the wharfs built there. A very large pulp industry has started in that district in which several hundred thousand dollars are invested. The only means the farmers have of transmitting their produce to Rob-erval is by the lake.
Lake Nominingue-wharfs, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Tills is in Portneuf county and is new work.
Laprairle ice piers and protection wall-additional amount for works of reconstruction and repair, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the purpose of rebuilding the ice piers. There was an amount in the main estimates, but after consultation with the engineer I came to the conclusion that that amount was not sufficient and that if we were to rebuild in wood it would be the same old story of large expense on maintenance and continual repairs. I concluded that it would be very much better to make a permanent work out of concrete. The total cost will be about 8.30,000, and we have a vote of $5,000 in the main estimates, which with this amount will make $15,000, about half that cost. We shall call for tenders and have the piers reconstructed with concrete work.
LotbiniSre wharf-improvements, $7,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a block there and this is for the purpose of connecting that block with the shore. The total estimated cost is $12,000. Some $14,000 have been expended on this in the past.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the necessity of the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a village about forty miles above Quebec which has not railway accommodation and entirely depends on boats and market steamers to reach the market at Quebec. The block costs $15,000 and it is very inconvenient to have boats start from the shore to the block. The idea is to make connections with the block which is at deep water.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifaxl. What is the population ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1,S00.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This will complete the repairs ?

The B1INISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. Yes, the chief engineer informs me that the repairs could not be carried out by tender, but the building of the connection between the block and the shore will be done by tender.
Maguasha-landing pier, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the construction of a landing pier 200 feet long and 30 feet wide.


Robert Laird Borden: How large is Maguasha ?
air. BIARCIL (Bonaventure). This is situated in a town which has a population of 2,446. It is a place from which the farmers from the upper part of the county cross oyer to Dalhousie the market town. This item was brought In at the request of the commission oj; public works of New Brunswick in order that there might be a proper landing in connection with the ferry on the Quebec side as well as on the New Brunswick side.
Mistook (Delisle) wharf, $2,000.
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. The total cost is $4,500 and it is a new work.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the population of the town ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. There are 1,880 inhabitants according to the census of 1901.
air. aiORIN. What county ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. In the district of Saguenay and Chicoutimi.
air. BORDEN (Halifax). Will it be built by tender ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. In this district it is very difficult to get these works done by tender. It is the rule to purchase the material under the direction of the chief engineer and have the work done under his supervision by day labour.
wharf that is estimated to cost $4,500. Why does he make this distinction ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. The reason is that in the case of Mont Louis, it is expected that the wharf can be completed in one season, but, in the other case we expect to purchase the material during the winter and complete the work during next season, and so, if we took the whole vote, a part of it should lapse-it would be of no use. These estimates are made up under the advice of the officials of the department.
air. FOWLER. Where can the place be where you cannot complete a job costing $4,500 in one season ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS, aiy hon. friend must remember that the fiscal year ends on the 30th of June. He must remember also that in some of these districts the work of building cannot go on during the long winter. The only work that can be done is the getting out of the timber and, perhaps the stone.
air. FOWLER. How' far apart are these two places ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. I do not know exactly, but many hundreds of miles.


Edward Hackett: It appears to me that Gasp6 county is being very well favoured iu this regard.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These votes do not go by counties. But, the county of Gaspe has a coast line of about 300 miles. It naturally requires more works of this kind than a county with a coast line very much less.
air. HACKETT. Is this to accommodate the fishermen of the locality 1
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. Yes.
air. GOURLEY. Is this on the St. Lawrence or on the Baie des Chaleurs ?
Mont Louis-wharf, $5,000.
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. This is the total estimated cost of this work.
air. SPROULE. Is this a new work ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WrORKS. Yes.
air. GOURLEY. What county ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. Gasp6.
air. aiORIN. Will this be let by tender ?
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. Yes.
air. FOWLER. In this case the minister takes one vote for the whole estimated cost of the work. In the case we have just been dealing with he asks for only $2,000 for a


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is on the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
Newport breakwater-extension, $6,800.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Newport is in GaspS county.
air. FOWLER. Will the hon. gentleman give us some explanation of the previous history of this work and what is to be done now '!
The ailNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. This is to complete works already under contract. The original work was commenced in 1900. The work now referred to in this vote is an extension of the breakwater, a distance of 200 feet and to a depth of 15 feet at low water. The amount of the contract is $13,338.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the population ?


Charles Marcil: The population is 1,357.


Mr. GOURLEY.: And it is on the Baie des Chaleurs ?


Charles Marcil: Yes.


Edward Hackett: Would the minister make an explanation in regard to it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is to pay the balance of the contract for the work that was let a year ago.
New Richmond-breakwater, $6,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a new work, and is approved by the ratepayers of the township of New Richmond.


Mr. FOWLER.: The mere fact that the ratepayers of the district approve of the work is not a sufficient cause for the government to do it. There must he some reason why this expenditure should be made.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I was proceeding to say that the trade at the port of New Richmond consists chiefly in the export of deals, shingles, railway ties and fish, and the imports, of general merchandise. Forty vessels are engaged in this traffic annually. There is extensive fishing.


Edward Hackett: How far is New Richmond from Dalhousie ?


Charles Marcil: About 40 miles. New Richmond is one of the most progressive towns on the whole Baie des Chaleurs. It is one of the few places inhabited by English speaking people, and is well known as a famous fishing resort. It used formerly to have a vice-regal residence during the summer time, but that is now in the hands of the fishing people. Apart from its natural advantages, it is a place of much importance. At present there is no wharf, breakwater, and nothing of any kind to show that there is even a Department of Public Works in existence. There is a population of 3,200 people, who have to land in mud, or in open boats, or in scows, as best they can. The government have realized that the time has come when something should be done for the people of New Richmond.


Edward Hackett: Carried.
Notre Dame du Portage-wharf, $4,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In accordance with the estimate of the chief engineer of the department, it is proposed to construct a wharf at this place 104 feet above high water at spring tide. It will be 370 feet long and 20 feet wide. Total cost, $7,000.


George William Fowler: Where is Notre Dame du Portage ?


Robert Franklin Sutherland: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In Temiscouata.
Paspebiac-landing pier, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This will be 400 feet long and 30 feet wide, estimated to cost altogether by the engineer $17,000. Paspebiac is the chief shipping port of the county of Bonaventure, in fact of the whole Gaspesian peninsula. There are wharfs now, but they are private property and cannot be used by fishermen and others.


Edward Hackett: I would ask the minister to state how far Paspebiac is from Quebec.


Charles Marcil: It is situated on the Baie des Chaleurs. It is the oldest shipping port on the Baie des Chal-eurs, the headquarters of the firm of Clms. Robin, Collas, Cie., one of the largest fishshipping firms in the world, doing business in South America and the West Indies. The aggregate trade at this port last year was $334,000, duty collected, $8,800, as compared with $5,000 two years ago. Strange to say. though Paspebiac has been used as a shipping port for more than 125 years, there has never been a dollar of public money expended at that port. There is a small wharf at present belonging to this shipping firm, from which the fishermen and the general public are excluded. The government has realized the importance of this port, which is open for ten months in the year, and which, at no distant date, I hope will be used by the Intercolonial as a shipping port. The government has thought fit to give this small amount, relatively small compared with the importance of the port. I think the committee will have no objection under the circumstances, in a port of that importance,. to voting this sum for a public wharf there.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I see there is a railway to this place. Is that a branch of the Intercolonial ?


Charles Marcil: Yes. Unfortunately, the Atlantic and Lake Superior Railway belongs to the creditors at present, but it is operated by trustees. It has been extended to Paspebiac, though trains only run to New Carlisle, two miles from Paspebiac ; but there is no doubt that the moment that road gets into the hands either of the Intercolonial or into the hands of a good company, this port of Paspebiac will be utilized. It is one of the most important ports on the whole gulf of the St. Lawrence. Last year I had the honour of producing before this House a statement from Commander Wakeham, of the government steamer ' La Canadienne,' showing that navigation was quite possible for ten months of the year. If the Intercolonial, when it reaches Matapedia, instead of going on through New Brunswick to St. John, or through Nova Scotia to Halifax, simply

branched off down to the Baie des Ohaleurs Railway, and along the shore to Paspebiac, they would have the shortest route from Montreal to Liverpool barring none, not even Sydney, Halifax, St. John, Portland, or any other seaport on the Atlantic.


Edward Hackett: In this item we have a landing pier costing $10,000 at Paspebiac. What is the meaning of that and what is that pier for ?


Charles Marcil: To land passengers and freight and to do the general business of the port. There is no landing there now except the company's wharf from which the fishermen are excluded. There are 200 fishermen at this place and they have to land in the mud.


Robert Laird Borden: I would ask the minister what revenue he expects to derive from this wharf and any others that we have passed ? The hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) has explained the very great amount of business that is done at this port and we might have some estimate as to the probable revenue.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My experience with these fishing stations is that generally the revenue is very small. I could not, with any degree of confidence, give an estimate of the revenue to be derived from this wharf ; I do not expect there would be a very large revenue, judging from our experience with other places.


Robert Laird Borden: It is expected that this pier will be used almost altogether by fishing boats and it cannot be expected that very much of this commerce will come to it.


Charles Marcil: It would be used by the general public as well as by the fishermen. At present there is only one wharf there and it is owned by this firm and is used for the firm's own purposes. The general public is debarred from access to it, except when some special arrangement is made as with the steamer that now performs the mail service.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Does the mail steamer stop there ?


Charles Marcil: It does.


Thp MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Does that pay a fee ?


Charles Marcil: It would pay a fee when it stopped at a public wharf certainly.


Edward Cochrane: It appears to me that this vote is very objectionable. I quite understand that if there were no wharfs at all in this bay the people should be accommodated, but it appears that here that company has built a wharf and that it exacts only such tolls as it has a right to charge the public for the use of the wharf. In our section of the country the wharfs are all
built by private enterprise and of course the owners could not maintain them if they did not charge wharfage. Here is a company that has invested money in the construction of a wharf, and we are told by the hon. gentleman representing that county (Mr. Marcil) that a large sum of money is brought into the country in return for the large exports from that section of the country. Why should we cripple the company that has built a wharf there, if all they want is legitimate fees for the use of that wharf by the public. The government, as I understand, propose to spend $10,000 to build a wharf to cripple the company that has already built a wharf there. If the government constructed a free wharf which would come into competition with the company's wharf it would certainly cripple the company.


Charles Marcil: I cannot allow the statements of the hon. gentleman who has just spoken to pass uncontradicted. The wharf now in existence at this point is a company's wharf used exclusively for the company's business. There is a population of 1,700 people at Paspebiac who have no wharf accommodation at all. As I have said the public can use the company's wharf only when a special arrangement is made as for example when a steamer should call there, but any schooner coming along is not permitted to land at this wlyirf.
At one o'clock, committee took recess.
Committee resumed at three o'clock.
Paspebiac-landing pier, $10,000.


Edward Cochrane: When the House rose 1 was speaking about this vote, and the minister did not give me any information. We have learned from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lemieux), who represents the riding, that there is in the neighbourhood of $300,000 worth of business a year done at this point, and that the people needed a wharf. But the fishing company have a wharf there now, and why should the government enter into competition with it ? I am satisfied that no company will refuse wharfage privileges to fishermen or anybody else it' they are willing to pay wharf dues. I don't blame the people for wanting the government to build them a wharf that they can use for nothing, but is it fair to the company who have already spent a large su n of money there in building a wharf. The government will have to borrow this $10,000 at 34 per cent, say, and it will take at least 24 per cent annually to repair this wharf, so that 6 per cent on the $10,000 expenditure would cost us $600 a year. I fancy that if the government wants to go into this business they can make an arrangement with the company to give these fishermen the use of their wharf for less than $600 a year. This expenditure is not justified under the circumstances.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman is mistaken about the situation there. This is a large company, and they have no more wharf accommodation than is necessary for their own business, so that outside steamers and fishermen cannot use it. I should think that although the receipts from these wharfs are small, as a rule, that in this case they would pay the cost of maintenance. If there was a private wharf there that could be used for public purposes, the case would be different, but my information is that the company use this wharf for their own business, and that it does not afford accommodation for the general trade.


Edward Cochrane: I think the minister must be mistaken about that. Along the shores of Lake Ontario, an incorporated and county towns, where they must have as much business as has Paspebiac, I never heard of a wharf that was not capable of handling all the business that came to it. This company makes its living out of the fishermen, and they are as much interested in accommodating them as in accommodating anybody else. It does not require such a great number of ships to carry away $300,000 worth of fish.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: The statistics show that last year 32 vessels entered at that wharf from Great Britain, British West Indies, Brazil, Norway and Sweden, Spain and the United States ; and 60 vessels cleared to Great Britain, British West Indies, Brazil, St. Pierre, Norway and Sweden and the United States. The total tonnage was over 35,000 tons, and the customs receipts alone for that place last year were $9,000. We certainly should give the people there some accommodation to carry on their business.	[DOT]


Edward Cochrane: Sixty vessels during 10 months' navigation would only mean six a month.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: There were 92 ocean-going vessels in all, not counting the fishing craft.


Mr. PRASER.: And some large vessels might be there for quite a while.


Edward Cochrane: They might be in the sky. The wayfaring man, though a fool, cannot err in seeing that the government is spending this money simply because the people down there do not want to pay for the use of the wharf already in existence.
Perce-Extension of pier in north cove,


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Gaspe county, and the work is to afford protection to vessels in north-easterly gales, and to give additional landing and shipping facilities. The estimated cost is $27,000.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: How long has the present pier been built ?


Edward Cochrane: 


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: The original pier was built in 1889.
Pierreville-wharf, $7,500.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in the county of Yamaslta. It is a new work. The total cost is estimated at the amount we are asking for. It will be built by contract.
Pointe aux Trembles-wharf, $5,000.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to make provision for the construction of a wharf on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, which will be available at all times for the use of steamers. It is in the county of Portneuf. The total cost of the work will be $12,000. It is a new work.
Pointe Fortune wharf-improvements, $1,000.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: This is required to complete the renewal of the superstructure of the government wharf. The total cost of the work is $5,000. This will pay the balance.
Port Daniel-extension of wharf and approach to same, $7,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Bonaventure county. It is to make provision for an estimate submitted by the acting engineer for extending the government wharf a distance of GOO feet to a depth of 25 feet at low water. The present wharf is 425 feet long, and reaches a depth of 13 feet at low water. The vote also includes some repairs to the approach to the wharf.


Edward Cochrane: What are we to understand by the approach ? If it was possible to get on to the old wharf, it will be possible to get on to the extension.
The MINISTER 'OP PUBLIC WORKS. What is called the approach is not on the land, but is the portion of the wharf that runs from the land, which is in need of repair.
Repentigny-wharf, $6,500.
l'he MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS. This is for a new wharf. It is on the St. Lawrence, in the county of L'Assomption. The total cost of the work is estimated to be the amount of the vote.
Rimouski-extension of pier and tidal basin, including repairs, $30,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is to make provision for repairing the present pier and for carrying on the works required for the formation of a tidal basin at the end of the pier. The vote is for the immediate repair of the present wharf, which is in danger of going down. The engineers have reported that there ought to be a tidal basin at this very important point with sixteen feet of water. At the present time, as hon. gentlemen know, tenders have to go from this port to the large boats to bring in the mails and passengers. There is a great deal of lumber and

other freight shipped from fliis point, and there has been an application from all parts of the country for some kind of a port on the St. Lawrence. According to the estimates of the engineers, the works necessary to form a port for general navigation at Iti-mouski would cost about $240,000. The whole matter is being looked into by the engineers of the department. I may say that the Wolvin Line has now ten boats on the route from the lakes to the lower St. Lawrence. The company have procured large limits, and they have represented to me that they were cutting pulp wood in that part of the country, and shipping it over the Intercolonial Railway. If trrv had a good port where they could take all the wood that could be furnished to them, they would bring back to the west this wood as return freight. They are doing a very large business, and that is one reason why we have had a much lower rate on grain during the present season than we ever had before. If the company can bring down wheat, and take other freight back, they can lower the rates both ways very much. From Quebec east there does not seem to be a good natural harbour on the St. Lawrence, and representations have been made to me of the necessity of having a good port down there. Itimouski is a central point. It may be that before next session a report will be got with regard to this and other places which may be available as harbours on the lower St. Lawrence. In the meantime this vote is for the purpose of improving the wharf at Rimouslci, which is reported to be in a very dangerous state. It would be disas-trous'to the commerce of the country if we had no wharf- there. At the present time the Intercolonial runs a branch out on this wharf, and there is danger of it being, from neglect or decay, washed away altogether.


Edward Cochrane: What does the hon. minister mean by a tidal basin ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A tidal basin is where ordinary sea-going vessels can go at high tide.


Mr. LANCASTER.: Has any contract been let for this ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.
Rivi6re St. Maurice-dredging eastern channel. &c., $5,000.


Mr. BUREAU.: This channel runs between the eastern shore and the island of St. Christophe. On this island there is a saw-mill, the owner of which, I may tell my hon. friend, to relieve his conscience, is a very good Tory.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not know this.


Jacques Bureau: I do and I felt it. There is no other way by which they can ship lumber from this mill in barges and there is not enough water for the barges to get to the wharf so that the channel has to be
deepened. A new mill has also been built opposite on the main shore, and the channel requires to be enlarged in order to allow boats coming up and down to cross each other.
RiviSre Jesus-dredging, $6,000.


Mr. LEONARD.: I understand that that work is going on now ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: Who is doing it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work is going on and applications have been made to me for a sum of $4,000 more to complete it. It is said to be doing a great deal of good, and urgent representations have been made to continue it. The work is being done by the Canadian Construction Company.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: I am told that the work is going on only on the north side of the river, thus favouring the county of Terrebonne, and that none is being done in my county.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My chief engineer tells me that the work is going on in the natural channel of the river. Whether it is nearer one shore or the other would depend on the channel.


Joseph-Édouard-Émile Léonard: Is it the intention of the government to do dredging on both sides ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The intention is to dredge the channel, and I may have to ask for a further vote.
RiviSre Ouelle pier-repairs, $6,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This, is to make provision for whatever repairs are required to the government pier at Fointe Aux Orignaux. The Intercolonial has extended its railway down to this point so as to connect with the steam ferry which crosses over to Murray Bay.
RiviSre Verte-improvements at mouth of, $3,750.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Since the construction of a dam there, there is a flooding each year which damages property.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: If this occurs every year, how have we managed in other years when there was no vote ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This dam causes the ice to jam and then the water overflows. The dredging will prevent that overflow.


Edward Cochrane: The same difficulty arises at the mouth of the Moira river, at Belleville. That city is flooded very often and a large amount of damages caused. Has anything been done to prevent that ? I always understood that the damages were due to the fact that the debris floating down

the river accumulated where the water was shallow and caused it to overflow.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think that that matter has been brought to the attention of the department. My chief engineer says he has no knowledge of it. But of course that being a navigable river, I dare say we would be called upon to do the necessary works to prevent damage.


Edward Cochrane: It is on the bay that the difficulty is where the Moira river flows into it. The accumulation takes place there, not In the river.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We will agree to make the improvements if we have it within our jurisdiction. If the plan was approved by the department, there is no doubt liability on the part of the Dominion to make the improvement.


Robert Laird Borden: Has this dam been constructed by the government or by private parties ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a new dam approved of by the government, the building of which has created this need of repairs.


Robert Laird Borden: I would think that if the nuisance were created by a dam constructed by private parties, any person aggrieved by that work should have a right of action to recover damages against the parties who constructed it. I can hardly see how the Crown would be called upon to relieve from liability the private individuals who constructed the dam.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There was a suit of Graham against the King, which affirmed the liability of the government because the government had approved of the work which was constructed by private parties. That dam was constructed on the Ottawa river a few miles from the city, and the parties were allowed $3,500 In damages.


Edward Cochrane: The government allowed it to be done ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There was no liability. The department, and I suppose the Department of Justice as well, thought that the government were liable for allowing it to be done. But outside of legal liability, we have always acted upon the policy that when works were allowed to be done upon navigable rivers that caused any obstruction which did not exist before, it was our duty to make these improvements when such works required them.


Robert Laird Borden: I was not aware of any decisions affecting the Crown for having approved of a public work or that, rendered us liable for damages occasioned by the construction of such work. If there are any such decisions I would think it very


Edward Cochrane: advisable they should be carried to a court of appeal. If the court of appeal should determine that we are liable, it seems to me one of two things should be done : Either we should amend the law by providing that there shall be no liability by reason of approving the plans, that any liability shall be confined to the private individuals constructing the work, and that the action for damages shall not be taken away by the fact that the Crown approves the works. Otherwise in every case where works are approved by the government there should be great care taken to investigate the question as to whether those works are liable to lead to any damage for which action could be brought; and in all cases a proper security should be taken from persons constructing the work that they will indemnify the Crown in respect of any such damages. But it seems to me manifestly absurd that the Crown, by reason of approving works which are constructed for the benefit of private individuals, should be liable in damages created by the construction of those works. There is an absolute flaw, either in the legislation or the administration of the department. If a private individual requires the sanction of the Crown for the construction of works to be operated for his private benefit, he certainly should assume all the liability that might accrue by reason of the construction of those works. The duty of the Crown should be confined, I think, to this :	As the works are being
constructed on navigable waters, the Crown should see to it that the erection of those works does not interfere with navigation- that is all the Crown is called upon to do. And I think the statute should be amended so as to provide that the remedy of a private individual against the person constructing the work is not taken away, and at the same time that the Crown, by reason of its approval, is not to be rendered liable for damages so occasioned.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am informed by the deputy minister that in this case, to which I referred, of Graham against the King, I made a little mistake. The improvements were made by the Crown and not by private individuals. But our idea was that the liability where we approved of them would be the same as if we had done the work ourselves.
River Saguenay-dredging, $15,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a large development of trade on the Saguenay river at the present time. The pulp industry alone on that river amounts on an average to 120 tons per day. That is all for foreign shipment. Up to the present time they have carried that out in barges for a considerable distance, eight or nine miles, to a point where the water is deep enough to allow the vessels in which it is to be transhipped to approach the land. It was thought that the dredging should be

undertaken at an early date. We liope to go on with it next spring, and we ask for this small vote in the meantime to start the work.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I thought the river Saguenay was navigable for large steamers up to Chicoutimi.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Richelieu steamers go to the wharf at Chicoutimi at high tide. The great development of trade in that country will make it necessary, if possible, to get a channel that will allow them to reach the wharf at low tide. We intend to do this dredging with our own plant.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: To fourteen feet at low tide ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is what we aim at.
River St. Louis-improvements, $15,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to make provision for dredging a, channel six miles long, and thirty feet wide and six feet deep at ordinary low water, from the intersection of the canal into Lake St. Francis, with a view to preventing the periodical overflow of lands adjoining the water-course. The total cost will be $25,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is this a new work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not quite see how the need for.it arises.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is in connection with a long standing grievance with the people who live on the shore of the river. The government built a dike along the shore, and in that there is an opening. The proprietor of the mill at the other end of the stream claims this to be his property. I may say that this story is an old one. The difficulty dates as far back as 1837. The government have, at limes, acknowledged the claim and at other times resisted it. The little stream is very shallow, and when the gate is open the lands on both sides are flooded, causing a serious grievance. The proprietor of the mill has taken suit against ilie Crown to have that gate declared to be his property, and that he has exclusive control of it. I do not wish' to commit myself or say anything as to what the result of the suit is likely (o be ; but I have advised that, in case the result of the suit should be in favour of this man, whose name is Robert, it would be wise to make provision to dredge the river. I do not mean to say we are going to lose, but it is wise to make provision.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I quite understand that the hon. minister would not care to discuss the merits of the case, but would it not be well to wait until it is decided before we 422
authorized the expenditure ? Would it not make a difference in the case itself how we view this, matter ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There have been interlocutory proceedings that are indicative of what is likely to happen. The case has not proceeded because it happens that the judge is on the Pacific coast at this time. If the gate is opened this autumn the results will be very serious. The lands are hay lands, and, if water spreads out and the frost comes, there would be very serious damage to the farmer and very serious cases of damages against the government. The overflow would be by the canal which we built for which we are responsible.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps I do not quite understand the facts. The gate to which the hon. gentleman refers is some distance away from the property of the owner of the mill ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The gate is on the side of the river, and then there is a highway and then the land; affected.


Robert Laird Borden: Why does he want to open the gate and let the water in upon the lands ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The mill is immediately below the lands affected, and the water to reach the mill must come down by the stream. He claims that he cannot operate the mill successfully because we keep the gate closed and deprive him of a certain portion of the water.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the better way would be to buy the mill.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is a rather important mill and I need not say to a gentleman of the experience of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) how this importance grows when it comes to a question of the government exercising any claim with regard to any property.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I do not like to commit ourselves without information, and the most important information would be the decision in the suit that the hon. minister was speaking about. It cannot be many months until that will be decided. We have got along without this expenditure all these years, and I do not understand that the state of facts has changed. There may be, perhaps, an increasing damage to the people, but still, that must go on at a very slow rate, as I understand the minister. I do not understand why we should be in such a hurry to vote this money for these improvements until the suit has been decided.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Looking over the papers I find that, as far back as 1891 or 1892, application was made for a petition of right. We took possession of the gate forcibly and keep it closed, and



the petition of right was persistently refused until last year, when it was granted. I cannot say what the result of the suit will be, but I know the opinions that have been expressed by previous judges. And, if the case goes against us, there may be serious damages against the government.


Robert Laird Borden: In my own province, under such conditions, the proprietor of a mill flooding the lands of other people would be liable to damages unless he had acquired the right by grant or by prescription.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: If the stream continued in its natural course, the lands as they stand would be flooded. As 1 understand-and, no doubt the principle is the same in my hon. friend's province-the proprietor of the mill below would have the right to the flow of water in its natural condition. But the flow has not been in its natural condition for a good many years, and the result is that the proprietors abutting on the river have reclaimed lands on either side. They would have no claim against the mill below if the water flowed in its natural course and flooded lands as it [DOT]did originally before anything was done.


Mr. REID (Grenville).: Is this the first item of expenditure for this work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


John Dowsley Reid: I notice there is an expenditure of ,$900 last year in this locality.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are considerable public works there.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, I do not know the length of the flow of the water before it reaches the mill. One would think that if proprietors reclaim land along the bed of a navigable stream they would not have much to complain of. because any man who reclaims land along the stream is bound to raise dikes of some kind to keep the water off the land. Would it not be cheaper, if liability is assumed, to do it that way-building a dike on either side ? Has any Investigation beeu made ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, the Railway Department have large works and have built a big dike in connection with their works. I do not know whether it is the result of the building of that dike, but that is what is claimed at any rate.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS The officers of the Public W rks Department deny that this is the result of our work.
I had a report made by the engineer of the department and the remedy suggested is the dredging for which I am now asking a vote.
Hon. Mr. iFITZPATRICK.
River du Loup (Fraserville)-harbour improvements. $20,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a very important point and $250,000 have been spent on this harbour previous to and since confederation. The trade is increasing very much. One of the items in the report of the engineer is that over 20,000,000 feet of lumber was shipped from this wharf during the past year. I am now having an investigation made by the engineers of the department for a large extension of this work, an extension which will probably cost a considerable amount of money under all the conditions. The present vote we are taking for the purpose of making such improvements as we can at the present time. In addition to the 20,000,000 feet of lumber shipped last year there is a considerable general trade.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Who owns the wharf there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The government.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is there anv revenue from it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a very considerable revenue but I have not the figures here. From my own recollection of the returns of the department I can say that there is a very large revenue.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the hon. gentleman explain the nature of the improvements ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The engineers are now making a general investigation. In a report which my hon. friend may have seen reference is made to tile growing trade on the St. Lawrence and tlie desirability of important improvements being made at one or more ports on that river to afford sufficient facilities for this growing trade. Perhaps my hon. friend did not hear me state that the engineer mentions the shipment of 20,000,000 feet of lumber from that port last year. The Intercolonial road is extended to this wharf and in addition to the lumber trade there is a very large general trade. Until I get the report of the engineers with regard to the whole question of establishing better accommodation on the St. Lawrence, I could not say whether we will go on with these works or not ; that will be for consideration at a future session of parliament. But I may say that the reports, so far as I have seeii them, indicate that the estimated cost of the improvements at Riviere du Loup is between $200,000 and $250,000. However, I am asking for this vote in connection with tlie improvements that are required at the present time.


Robert Laird Borden: In what will the improvements consist ; in giving an in-

creased depth of water or the erection of wharfs and accommodation of that kind ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for increasing the depth of water, but some of it will be used in improving the basin and general improvements to the works we have there now.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Will there be dredging ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, there would be a good deal of dredging if we went on and made the protected basin or artificial harbour of which I spoke. A very large proportion of the estimate I have taken will be used in dredging this artificial basin or harbour. The present purpose is to improve the accommodation for vessels that come to the wharf and to extend the deepwater.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What proportion of the $20,000 would be used in that way ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say that I cannot give that information exactly. It is a large general work in which a great deal of money has to be spent and the work is not divided.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is this under contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for improvements and repairs which will be done by our own plant.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is there any contract In relation to any part of it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: If we went on with all the work there would be, but repairs and dredging immediately necessary we will do with our own plant.


Robert Laird Borden: The export is chiefly lumber ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Chiefly lumber.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the lumber sawn at Rivi&re du Loup or is it brought down the river, or it brought there by railway ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is brought there by railway.


Mr. GAUVREAU.: Riviere du Loup is a prosperous town which has a very import-tant trade. It is the first divisional point on the Intercolonial Railway below Quebec.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What is the population ?


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Six thousand. A great quantity of lumber is brought there over the Intercolonial Railway, and especially over the Temiscouata Railway from New Brunswick. The counties of Temiscouata and Kamouraska are tributary to Riviere du Loup, and there are in the neighbourhood important lumbering operations. We have Mr. Fraser at Cabano, who exported last year over 20,000,000 feet of lumber, and we expect that if these improvements are made 4224
at Rivi&re du Loup many firms will send their lumber by the Temiscouata Railway and by the Intercolonial Railway. The Intercolonial Railway has a branch down to the wharf. At the present time there is no accommodation for the vessels coming there and we have to first load the lumber on barges and tow these barges quite a distance from the shore in order to load the vessels. As soon as they have accommodation the vessels can come alongside the wharf, which will save time and money and increase the traffic at Riviere du Loup to a large extent.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What depth of water is there at the present time ?


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: About six or eight feet.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What depth will there be when the improvements are made ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They are supposed to give twenty-five feet.


Robert Laird Borden: Every hon. member who goes to and from the maritime provinces via the Intercolonial Railway knows that I!ivi&re du Loup is a very important point. My hon. friend the Minister of Public AVorks rather misled me about it, as in the estimate he gives the first half of the name in English and the second half in French, and on behalf of my friends from the province of Quebec, I am going to object to that. I would like to know whether or not the lumber trade is likely to increase ? Are there limits there to supply that trade for a great many years to come ; is it a trade that will develop ? If it is, I think this expenditure would be amply justified.
Mr. GAUA'REAU. A large area of timber limits will be developed by this accommodation, and if we had time to look over the report made last year by the board of trade of Rivi&re du Loup, we would see that it is anticipated that 40,000,000 or 50,000,000 feet of lumber will be exported from this same port.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Why is the word 1 Fra-serville ' inserted in the item ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is really the same thing. Fraserville is the name under which the old parish and Riviere du Loup had been incorporated. Rivi&re du Loup is now a town and the name ' Fraserville ' is taken from the old seigneurs who were named Fraser and who were descendants of Colonel Fraser, who was a well-known Hudson bay man in our country.
Sacre-Coeur-wharf, $1,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: This is in the district of Chicoutimi and Saguenay.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is it a new wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is for a new wharf 210 feet long and 25 feet wide. The intention was to get out the

timber this winter and the total cost of this work when completed will be $8,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the population ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not the population, but it is in the district of Chicoutimi and Saguenay, which is being settled very fast. There has been a cheese factory erected there, and there is considerable business. The people now have to team their produce to Tadousac over a very bad road.


John Dowsley Reid: Is this work to be let by tender and public advertisement ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.	'
Shegawake-harbour improvements, $4,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What is the nature of these improvements ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Bonaventure, and we have had a petition from the inhabitants. It is undertaken on the report of the resident engineer who reports that a small wharf there would cost $7,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: This $4,000 is a vote on account.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Mr. MAItCIL (Bonaventure). This is situated in the township of Hope, which has a population of 2,411. This township runs along the Baie des Chaleurs for fifteen miles, and the people have no accommodation of any kind in the shape of a landing pier at which to do their business.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What is the nature of the business ?


Charles Marcil: It is a general lumbering, farming and fishing business, and Shegawake is the most important settlement in that township. It is largely populated by the descendants of United Empire Loyalists.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: It is a wonder they didn't build a wharf themselves long ago.


Charles Marcil: The only wharf In that locality is Port Daniel, teii miles east, or New Carlisle, twenty miles to the west.
Seven Islands-wharf. $25,000.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: What is that for ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to make provision for the construction of a deepwater pier on the west side of Bay of Seven Islands. The pier will run out in a northerly direction, nearly at right angles to the shore, and it will have a total length of 4,325 feet, reaching a depth of 48 feet at low water spring tide. The estimated cost is.$65,000. The reason for the work Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.
is that there is a most important development going on at that place, and there are now large pulp mills in that district which was up to a year or so ago almost unknown.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Where is it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Opposite the west side of Anticosti Island, almost due north.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I have been led to understand that this property is entirely in the hands of a private corporation which has monopolized the whole business, and that they alone will be benefited by the expenditure of this money. A full explanation is necessary, as to how the public interest will be served by this expenditure.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I know something of the Bay of Seven Islands, and of this wharf-partly built by a private company. The deputy minister has just informed me that this bay is six miles long and two and a half miles wide, but it looked to me even more extensive than that, when I was there. The north shore of the St. Lawrence in this locality is now experiencing a wonderful development. As we know, our pine timber in Quebec has practically become exhausted, and our spruce limits are now being exploited. There are no spruce limits in Canada equal to those of the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspe peninsula.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Nova Scotia comes first.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I will let my hon. friend have his opinion as regards that, but we will still retain ours. There is no objection to a man standing up for his own province. There is only one place suitable for trans-Atlantic shipment from Tadousac down to the Bay of Seven Islands.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Where is it ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is a place which Is very well known to the people of the province of Quebec, and which is fast becoming known all over Canada. It is immediately at the entrance to the gulf, opposite Anticosti.


Mr. LEMIEUX.: They are building a railway there now.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I was go- [DOT] ing to refer to that. There are very extensive establishments now at the Bay of Seven Islands, but there is no shipping point in the whole of that district. Nature has done more than human ingenuity could possibly devise, to make the Bay of Seven Islands a splendid harbour, and with a comparatively small outlay it can be made perfect for shipping purposes. The entrance is from the west ; it is protected from easterly gales so that it affords perfect accommodation for shipping. The harbour is absolutely landlocked. I do not think I need say more, than that the people who have gone in there

have sufficient confidence in the future of the place, to invest over a million dollars in the erection of important pulp works. When my hon. friend from Grey (Mr. Richardson) says that only one private company will be benefited, I have no doubt he has in mind the Seven Islands Pulp Company, of which Messrs. Meaney and Clarke of New York and Toronto, are the chief shareholders. But in addition to that there are the Boyds, who I think come from Bobcaygeon, Out, and who have large limits in the neighbourhood, and they, to my knowledge own a portion of this bay. I may say that they have applied for a charter for a railway to connect their limits with the Bay of Seven Islands, and in order to accommodate this locality, it is absolutely necessary that we should make this expenditure. '


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The limits are on the north side ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, all on the north side. There are very important rivers there, with very important water-powers. I would ask my hon. friends simply to look at the map and realize that the whole of the north shore of the St. Lawrence from Tadousac down to Labrador is without a single ha.rbour. As they know', the island of Anticosti has for many years borne the name of the graveyard of the St. Lawrence, so numerous have been the wrecks in the neighbourhood of that island. If a vessel is wrecked on th.e lower St. Lawrence, there is nothing to be done but to take her to Quebec or to Halifax. It is of the greatest importance to the navigation of the St. Lawrence that there should be a port in the Bay of Seven Islands, which would be a place of refuge for the vessels, and where they could be repaired. It would be in the public interest to have a wrecking plant and a dry-dock there. It is really more central than Quebec, where there is a wrecking plant now. When a vessel gets aground, it is of the utmost importance that she should be taken off at the earliest possible moment, so as to be saved the consequences of the terrible battering she would get if a storm came on. If a vessel happens to be stranded and is allowed to remain on the rocks for a week, and one of those terrific storms which we have down there comes on, she will, as the saying is, practically pound the bottom out of herself. This place is not in my constituency, but is in the constituency of my hon. friend (Mr. Girard); but it is the only point on the lower St. Lawrence where there is a harbour, and it is important that we should have at that central point conveniences for enabling us to go to the help of vessels which may be wrecked in the locality. This work is not for the benefit of one firm only. All those American firms which come in there for the purpose of exploiting our spruce limits will use this port as a port of shipment. How can you ship pulp from the lower St. Lawrence if you
cannot get vessels into a harbour whence it can be shipped ? You have to put it on lighters and send it to some harbour elsewhere; and you cannot ship it in stormy weather at all. If you look at the map, you will see that from the entrance to the harbour of the Bay of Seven Islands there is an absolutely straight line to the other side of the ocean, with nothing intervening; and this port is equally convenient if you want to ship the products south to the United States. So that it has all the natural advantages that a port should have. You cannot expect to have any great agricultural development on the lower St. Lawrence. You may have some mineral development in the future; but there is nothing that I know of in the immediate future except the development of pulp and lumber, and the only harbour from which these can be shipped is the Bay of Seven Islands.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What is the distance from there to Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It must be 300 miles.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I eoncur in the view that all these harbours in the St. Lawrence river should be thoroughly exploited. Our whole sea-coast has, in fact, been sadly neglected. But there is a suspicion over here that this is done for the benefit of some private company.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not deny that there is one private company, the Seven Islands Company, that is going to benefit very largely. But it will not be benefited to any greater extent than other companies which are in the course of development.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Two years ago I do not suppose there was any person living at that point, while now there are 300 families; and the general development will go on.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I am not concerned about the country not being an agricultural country. The poorest country in the world is an agricultural country, while the country that turns out to be the most valuable is the rocky country. There are parts of Nova Scotia where there is nothing but rock, but it is full of gold. If this is an honest vote for the purpose of serving the trade of the country and promoting its development, then it is desirable; but we do not want any of the public money of this country to be exploited for the benefit of private associations or people with a political pull. The great danger of Canada is that our public money, instead of being used for the benefit of the country, should be pulled away for political purposes; and that must have been the case in the past, for tlm enormous sums of money we have voted in the last twenty years ought to have given us many navigation facilities; yet, so far as

Nova Scotia is concerned, we have scarcely begun to get our seaports into proper condition.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hon. friends from Ontario know the Boyds, of Bobcaygeon, as one of the largest and most respectable firms in that province; and they know that they are not political partisans of ours.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I know the Mossom, Boyd firm, and I know that, like all other firms of lumbermen, they are quite willing that the government should spend money for their needs in any part of the country. It may be that a harbour of refuge is required at this point. If so. that would he a strong argument for spending the money. But if it is only for the purpose of helping one, two or even three firms that have made investments there in pulp or timber, then I do not think it is altogether defensible. We have a great many men engaged in that line of business in Ontario, and it is a very rare occasion when they apply to the government for a harbour or a dock to enable them to carry on their business. If the hon. Minister of Justice will go along Georgian bay and the Manitoulin islands, he can count the docks by the dozen which have been built by lumbermen for their own needs and in very few instances did they get any aid from the government. Years ago I applied on behalf of some of these to get a. small expenditure made, and I was told that it was not the object of the government, nor did they intend to make expenditure for the purpose of helping private individuals. In cases where there is a harbour or a large town, and where considerable business is done by water, the government may consider themselves justified in spending public money in the general interests, but not for the purpose of helping some one to get out timber who had acquired large lumber limits in the district. There is one instance down here in Quebec, Grand river, where there was an expenditure made for no other purpose than to help a lumbering firm which had acquired timber limits there. After the timber is gone, after the pulp wood has disappeared, what will become of this harbour?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I look up n this particular item as of vital importance. We should develop as much as we can industries in the lower St. Lawrence. The harbour of refuge is the first consideration. and this is the only natural har hour on the whole of that coast.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the water very deep ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, you can float any vessel in it. The deputy minister says it is fifty feet deep. I have gone in there on the ' King Edward.' which is n t a very large boat, but it looked like a small sail boat when we got within the harbour. As a harbour of refuge it is an


Seymour Eugene Gourley: ideal place. The industry established at that place is not an ordinary saw-mill, but a manufactory of pulp, and it seems to me most desirable that we should encourage people to come in and manufacture pulp in our own country. In order to get them to do-that, we must provide them with shipping facilities.


Mr. YROOMAN.: After listening to the explanation of the hon. Ministetr of Justice, I am convinced that this vote will do considerable good. The firm mentioned are constituents of mine, and are men of very considerable repute.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Supporters of yours ?


Adam Edward Vrooman: Yes, and this assistance which is given to a large industry is one that should commend itself to the House, more particularly as it will also operate to the advantage of shipping by providing a safe harbour of refuge-.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) wras evidently mistaken when he spoke of Grand river as being a place where some public money has been wasted. I presume that he alluded to Grande Vallfie, in the county of Gaspfi. In Grand river there is only an expenditure of *jtSOO provided in the estimates. But regarding Grande Vall6e, I may tell my hon. friend that he is completely in error. The money spent there will be well spent. It is the only harbour on that side of the coast, and I may tell him further that I had no political advantage to gain by this expenditure, because there are no voters of mine there. Although there is a population of 800, these people do not vote, because they are not erected into a municipality.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I know nothing about that ; but I know that at Grande Yallce, the government did not own a foot of land, and had to buy the road to the wharf. There is no settlement there, no village, no shipping interests. But there is a firm which has large timber limits there and which wanted this expenditure to be done for its own purposes. Go to the Manitoulin islands. where there are large limits ; go to Providence bay or to Michael's bay. and-take the other bays along the coast'where large firms are earring on their operations, and not a dollar of public money has been expended to enable them to carry on their business. But at Grande Vallee we find the very reverse. We find the public money expended there for no other purpose than to enable private individuals to prosecute their own enterprises. So far as the present vote is concerned, if this is a suitable harbour of refuge, it is justifiable in my opinion to spend money in order to Improve it. and if there are great industries there, that will be additional reasons, but what we desire on this side is information which will justify us for voting this money.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I cannot shut my eyes to the fact that a company have gone in there to exploit this pulp wood industry and the government is making a grant to them, and to that extent adding value to their property-adding much more value than probably the Minister of Finance understood. The need for a harbour of refuge existed before this company came there, but it was not until this company came to exploit this business that this need for a harbour of refuge began to be felt, and we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that in the estimates the government are making a handsome grant to private enterprise.
Sabrevois wharf-improvements, $1,000.


John Dowsley Reid: I notice last year that there was expenditure to complete this wharf for $898. How is it we have another vote this year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is on the report of the engineer, and in a great many of these cases we thought that a certain amount would complete the works. Seven thousand five hundred dollars have been spent on this work already. Where there are large public works, there will be something for repairs from time to time, but wherever work is going on, I am most anxious that we should know exactly the amount. My desire is to change the system so as to inform the committee of the exact amount.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course, the engineer could make an estimate showing practically just what the repairs would cost when the expenditure is only about $1,000. I suppose there is only one wharf there, and I suppose that the expenditure of a year ago was made on an estimate showing what it would cost to put the wharf in gcod repair. The Auditor General's Report shows that the expenditure was $998.07 to complete the work. But now again we are asked for a similar amount. The minister will find about the - same with regard to these other small wharfs in this list.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is mainly for a stone embankment to protect the work.


Edward Cochrane: Why was this not included in the first place ? It appears to me there is a good deal of force in what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Reid, Grenville) has said. This way of spending money is very misleading to the committee. Last year we voted money supposing that it was all that was required to complete this work. This year we find a call for a further appropriation. To say the least of it, it looks a little suspicious. I suppose the minister acts upon the advice of his engineer, but why should the engineer report in this way? If there is any explanation for making these expenditures in this fashion, we should have it. I am sure that you, Mr. Chairman (Mr. Macdonald), remember how, in years gone by, when the party I support was in power, we heard it often said that the government was spending the people's money to buy the constituencies. I suppose the Minister of Public Works remembers that also. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright),
I am sure, remembers it well. If the late government spent the money to buy up the constituencies, what is this government doing ?


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The Minister of Trade and C. mmerce does not hear ytu.


Edward Cochrane: Oh, yes he does. He cannot stay in the House long at a time discussing these estimates, - and I attribute that to the fact that they remind him of the days gone by, when he used to harass the Conservative government.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Get the Prime Minister to work him up.


Edward Cochrane: No ; I am not speaking in that way at all. I do not want to harass the Minister of Trade and Commerce or the Prime Minister. I know that in their sober moments


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Edward Cochrane: I am sorry that hon. members on this side of the House take it so lightly. For my part, I take it very seriously. I feel very much as the Minister of Trade and Commerce felt, no doubt, when he sympathized with the farmers, and said that under an expenditure of $35,000,000 they were being bled white. I would like to hear from the hon. gentleman what the complexion of the farmers is now, when we are voting between $80,000,000 and $100,000,000 for one year. And I do not understand how you can be so pleasant about this matter, Mr. Chairman. But I can understand why you say ' carried ' so quickly over every item. These things must harass your mind, and you do not want to think of how the money is being squandered. When hon. gentlemen opposite used to charge the government that I support with spending the people's money to buy up the constituencies. I sometimes really thought that they -believed there was something in it. Bitt now I see that they must have known that it was a statement made to mislead the public, for we see them supporting a government that has far more than doubled the expenditure. We find one hon. gentleman opposite, one who has attained a venerable age, who gets more money spent in his constituency than any other member in Nova Scotia. I would urge the Prime Minister to consider the result of this lavish! expenditure of the public money. If it goes on, the government will have to borrow to meet the obligations they are entering into this year. I wish the Minister of Public Works would tell us what he means when

he speaks of the report of the engineer. The engineer does not go to a place of his own volition. He goes because he is sent. And, no doubt, he goes with instructions that certain things are to be done and he is to report on them. I wish to repeat what I have said time and again. Neither I nor any other member from Ontario will object to public expenditure on the ground that it is not in our own province. I do not care where the money is spent, so long as it is spent in the best interest of the Dominion as a whole. But I do not think that we are being justly dealt by when wharfs are being built, not only on the Atlantic coast- where, I suppose, there would be a good claim for them-'but on every little river in the maritime provinces and in the province of Quebec. We think we have a right to complain when in a riding like mine, facing on Lake Ontario, which is often boisterous, there are six or seven wharfs, rrd not a single dollar of public money has been spent on any of them. Why, the government is spending $10,000 to supplement the expenditure of a wharf built by a private company. I can understand that the Dominion government Is bound to keep in repair wharfs taken over at the time of confederation, but I say, and no fair-minded man will contradict me, that if these new wharfs are to be built, the people I represent have as good a claim upon the Dominion exchequer for expenditure upon their wharfs as have the residents along the rivers in the maritime provinces and Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: I see that nearly all the other items following this are in the same position as this one-Sorel, Ste. Anne du Saguenay, Ste. Genevieve piers and others. If you turn up the Auditor General's Report, you will find that on these same works small amounts were spent last year, stated to be for the completion of repairs. I cannot believe that in each and every one of these cases the engineer would make the mistake of estimating just about half what the repairs would cost. It looks as if this was merely an annual expenditure in some of these constituencies.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not believe the member for the constituency ever knew this vote was to be asked. It is simply recommended by the department, in accordance with the report of the resident engineer, to complete this work.


John Dowsley Reid: Last year we voted $1,000 to repair the wharf, and we were told that would be sufficient. This year we are asked for a similar amount. In looking up the Auditor General's Report I see that planking and iron and everything else was purchased for that work. Where the amount is so small we have a right to expect that the department will make a closer estimate. In every case, the repairs Mr. COCHRANE.
should be completely finished by the first vote where the amount is so small.
Mr. LANCASTER, I think there must be something wrong in the engineer's department. I do not see how he could have reported last year that the vote was needed to complete the work, and then make a report this year that the amount was too small, though it is not small in comparison with the amount of work done there.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The only answer I have to make is that last year I had not sufficient money to complete the work.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Then, how do these improvements become necessary?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They are a continuation of the same work. We are raising the structure.
Ste. Anne du Saguenay wharf-improvements.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The purpose of this vote is to substitute a movable slip for the present stairway, which can only be used half the time. This wharf is right opposite Chicoutimi, on the Saguenay.
Ste. Anne de la PSrade-repairs to river bank protection works. $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to protect a portion of the bank of the river against further erosions from the action of the water.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This protection was put on the shore of the Ste. Anne river after that terrible disaster that occurred a few years ago, by which the channel of the river was altered and the river rose to such an extent that it practically carried away the shore at this particular place. It is quite close to the Canadian Pacific Railway bridge, and any one who passes along on the Canadian Pacific Railway can see the situation. In a little more time the action of the river would carry away a part of the shore at that place. This is a navigable river, and is therefore under the control of the Dominion parliament.


Edward Cochrane: Is the Ste. Anne river navigable ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, at the point where this occurs. I am speaking of Ste. Anne above Quebec.


George William Fowler: Should not the province of Quebec look after this work ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The province of Quebec has no control over it. It is where the Ste. Anne enters the River St. Lawrence. It is practically a basin of the Ste. Anne river.
Ste. Famille-extension of pier, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This pier will be 60 by 60 feet and 30 feet high. It is in the county of Montmorency.

This is estimated to be the total cost of the work. It is an extension to deeper water.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is on the Island of Orleans, below Quebec.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Has this been done by contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief engineer tells me this will be under the supervision of the local engineer there.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Why is it not done by contract ? An extension is not like repairing. I can quite understand why repairing might be done by the engineer, but the extension is new work.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If, as my hon. friend says, it is an additional work and specifications can be drawn and contracts let, I would very much rather do it that way.
Ste. Anne de la Pocati6re-reconstruction of pier destroyed by ice shoves, $5,400.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to restore the pier which was destroyed by the ice almost entirely. This vote' will' cover the total amount of the cost.
Ste. Anne dj Sore!-repairs to ice piers, $3,800. The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. These are repairs to the resistance works or ice piers made on the report of the engineer, and are being done under his direction.


George William Fowler: Where are they situated in relation to Sorel ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Just below Sorel on the St. Lawrence river.


George William Fowler: It is near Sorel ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, quite near Sorel on the St. Lawrence river.
St. Alphonse-Baie des Ha ! Ha !-repairs to wharf, additional amount required, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for general repairs to the wharf which has been found to be in a deficient state of repair. It is principally for sheeting and planking. There was an appropriation for 1902-3 of $1,500, and this amount is required in addition to that, the total amount of the repairs being $3,500.
St. Godefroi de Nouvelle-breakwater, $6,000. The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. This is an entirely new work. It makes provision for a breakwater of cribwork, 700 feet long and 18 feet wide.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is it in Bonaventure ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. it is In Bonaventure ; the total estimated cost of the work when finished is $22,000.


George William Fowler: Is this at the mouth of (lie Nouvelle river ?


Charles Marcil: I may say that the citizens of the whole township who are mostly fishermen, have asked for this work. They sent in a large petition at the head of which appeared the name of the Rev. Mr. Leonard, parish priest, an uncle of Mr. Leonard, the hon. member for Laval, and that reverend gentleman asked me to secure the support of that hon. gentleman in regard to this vote. I regret that the hon. gentleman is not at present in the House. This is situated in the township of Hope, in which there Is a population of about 2,400. There are in that place probably 100 fishermen with absolutely no protection. Their only protection is in the Nouvelle river, but that is now almost filled up with sand, so the parish have asked to have this breakwater built one-half mile east of the Nouvelle river. The work is not an expensive one, and it is badly needed by the fishermen who have no protection. This reverend gentleman, Mr. Leonard, mentioned to me the case of three fishermen who had to spend a whole night in open water during a storm, because, having no protection whatever, they were unable to land.


George William Fowler: Are there any fishing vessels beyond small boats ?


Charles Marcil: They are all small boats.


George William Fowler: Would it seem to be necessary to build so extensive and expensive a work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It appears from the report of the engineer" that owing to the formation of the coast, they have to go out a considerable distance, and the work has to be substantially done, so that it will not wash away with the storms.


George William Fowler: If it is only a shelter for small vessels, I do not see why it is necessary to have it of such great length. I can see'that it may be necessary to have it very substantially built.


Charles Marcil: There is an attendance at the church at St. Godefroi of about 1,200 or 1,400 people. The province of Quebec are opening up townships in the rear of this settlement, and the population is bound, to increase. It increased 50 percent during the last census decade. There is no wharf there now. They have to go out to the open sea in open boats to meet the passing steamers, and they have no way of landing boats or shipping lumber ; in fact there is nothing but what nature has put there. It is hoped that this breakwater will serve the purpose of a landing wharf, where a boat can call, as well as a protection to small boats.


Tlie MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: One lion, gentleman asked why it was necessary to go out so far. I think that even with this length of breakwater there will be only between five and six feet of water.
St. Gedeon Islands-wharf. $2,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to make provision for improvements at St. Ged5on, which is near Chicoutimi, in the district of Saguenay and Chicoutimi The total cost is $6,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is it proposed to do this by contract 7	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


George William Fowler: Was there a petition for this 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 think the petition was addressed to the hon. member for that locality (Mr. Girard), and by him forwarded to the department. I see that it was. prayed for by the inhabitants. There were three petitions during 1902, and two during 1903, altogether five petitions from the locality.


George William Fowler: I would like to ask the minister if there are any districts in Canada from which the government have received petitions to which they have not given heed 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say that there are a great number. In fact I have stated, and I state now that nearly all of these works are being undertaken on the reports of the engineers of the department in places where ^ they were found to be most urgently needed
St. Fulgence wharf, $1,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Where is this 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in the district of Chicoutimi and Snugenay. The total cost will be $6,000.


George William Fowler: How far away from the other wharf 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Seventy miles.


George William Fowler: This has been petitioned for 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
St. Maurice river-dam at Grand Piles, $10,000. Mr. LANCASTER. What is the explanation of this 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the construction of a dam 940 feet long at the head of Grand Piles Falls.
A large deputation from the district waited upon me, and I had an investigation made by our engineer, and we came to the cou-elusion that by building this dam we would avoid a large expenditure for dredging, and


Charles Marcil: that the cost of maintenance of booms, &c., might be reduced at least $20,000 a year. The total cost of this work will be about $65,000. If the engineer is right in saying that this dam will save the necessity for dredging, and will reduce the cost of maintenance $20,000 a year it will be one of the best investments we have made for a long time.


George William Fowler: Why should this government maintain these booms ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: For bringing down logs and for the navigation of the river.


George William Fowler: The government are not bringing down logs.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, but we have expended over $1,500,000 on these works.


George William Fowler: Do you get any revenue ? The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. We get a revenue of $29,000, which is considerable, but which is nothing in comparison with the cost of the works.


George William Fowler: I do not see why the government should object so strongly to government ownership of railways, when they go in for the government ownership of lumber slides. They seem to ly>
very cheer? ful about voting large sums of money'for this purpose.
St. Andre de KaTnoura.ska-extension ot pier and additional repairs, $3,700.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to repair damage done by the ice in the spring of 1903, and for the construction of an addition to the pier.


George William Fowler: Is it to be done bv contract 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, it would be done under the supervision of the local engineer.


George William Fowler: What steamers call there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am told that it is principally for schooners.


George William Fowler: Are they building schooners to draw a greater depth of water than formerly 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The explanation is that at present they can only coimj in at high tide and with an extension of 75 feet tliev can get in at low tide.


Edward Cochrane: What are we to understand by the ' local engineer.' These wharfs are 100 miles apart, and we are always told that they will be repaired under the direction of the local engineer. Are we to understand that there is an engineer in every one of these places 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I should perhaps have said the resident en-

gineer. There is a resident engineer of the department who lives at a central point, and who has supervision over the work in the district. For instance, we have four engineers who reside at Toronto, but they are in charge of the works in different districts of Ontario.


Edward Cochrane: I suppose it is another job like the one we discussed this session; where you have a foreman, and a deputy foreman, and a man to buy material, and about as many officials as you have workmen. These works should not be done by the resident engineer when that can be avoided. There are always a lot of men employed who get large salaries and do very little work. I fancy that the same thing takes place wherever work is done under that rule. Instead of letting a contract for the timber, of which an engineer ought to know how much he wants and have it got out in winter, we generally have a man "to buy timber on commission, a superintendent, a deputy superintendent and a lot of other men putting in their time and drawing a large amount of money, and not doing much work for their pay.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Generally speaking, we are endeavouring as much as possible to let these works by contract. When the engineers do the work, very often a foreman has to be put on, and sometimes better value is obtained in that way than by doing it by contract. But I agree with the hon. gentleman as to the general policy, and we are doing as much work by contract as possible.
St. Fidele-wharf, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Charlevoix county. It is for the construction of a wharf for general landing and shipping purposes. It is a new work. The estimated cost is $10,000. It will be let by contract.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Is there not a private wharf near there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.
St. Simeon wharf-extension, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the purpose of connecting the present block with the shore, so that boats can land.


George William Fowler: Why do you build a block at a distance from the shore?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The water is shallow for a long distance from the shore, and a block is built which serves to accommodate the people. A steamer can tie up at the block, and the people can take their goods to and from it in small boats.


George William Fowler: Has the business Increased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is the statement. I have not the-statistics here.


George William Fowler: Have you the petition there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not.


George William Fowler: It seems to me that we ought to have some information about this. For some years the people seem to have-got along very well with this block system. Now my hon. friend proposes to connect the block with the land, and he should give-some reason for it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The reason we have these' blocks is to provide accommodation without a large expenditure of money. Even if there were no increase of business, I think it would be perfectly justifiable to spend this reasonable sum of money in so important a section of the country to connect the block with the land, so that the people will not have to row out in their boats.


George William Fowler: That would be a good argument if there were not so many applications for wharfs where there is now no accommodation at all. These expenditures can only be justified on one of two grounds -either that there has been or that there will be a large increase of business.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This block was built in 1889. and the people have been petitioning and Complaining ever since.


George William Fowler: This is .on the principle that if you give them an inch they will take an ell. The minister has not given us either of the reasons I have mentioned to justify this expenditure.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My information is that there has been an increase of trade; but even if there had not been, I think we would be justified in providing this accommodation.	.


George William Fowler: But in order to do so you have to deprive others who have no accommodation at all, while these people are partially accommodated.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ,WORKS. I think we are doing pretty well.
Ste. Michel de Belle-ehasse-repairs to pier, $2,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This block was sinking, and the vote is taken on the report of the engineer to protect our work. The total cost of the work will be $2,500.


George William Fowler: Was there a petition for this, and was each of the names on it certified ?
St. Jean des Chaillons-wharf, $6,000.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Is this a new work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is for the construction of a wharf about three-eighths of a mile below the present ferry wharf. The Lotbiniere and Megantic Railway has a terminal there.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: You are evidently making a terminus for a railway. _


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The total cost is $28,000.


George Taylor: For the benefit of this railway 7


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is the only point where a deep water wharf can be built on that section of the St. Lawrence. It is a terminus of a railway and there is a large trade being done there.


George William Fowler: But you have a steamer wharf within three-eighths of a mile, at the end of which there must be deep water.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand that that ferry wharf is owned by a private party and does not meet the requirements of the shipping and the railway.


George William Fowler: Why should not the railway look after its own requirements ? There is a wharf within three-eighths of a mile, which is a public wharf owned by private parties, if that wharf is not good enough, the railway ought to build its own wharf. Is this new work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes. The ferry only draws six feet of water, and this is for the purpose of giving fourteen feet of water at this point.


George William Fowler: The Grand Trunk Pacific is supposed to supply its own terminal facilities. Why should not this railway ? Between what points does it run 7


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: From Lyster It extends down to the shores of the St. Lawrence. It was formerly known as the King road, and was practically built for the purpose of enabling the King' Brothers to exploit their large timber limits. The intention is to build this wharf in order to enable the people in that locality to have communication with Quebec and'Montreal. It will serve practically four large parishes. There are very large brick yards there from which the city of Quebec gets practically its whole supply. In addition there is a large mill at that point. Comparisons have been frequently made, with reference to these wharfs, between Quebec and the other provinces, but let me say that to a very large extent the parishes on the river St. Lawrence are deprived entirelv of railway communication. Take the parishes in question. With the exception of that little road which runs back a few miles to Lyster, they are about forty miles from the line of railway, and the river front is the most thickly settled part of our country. The people-have to depend absolutely on the river for communication. These people are not ask-


George Taylor: [DOT]
ing for much assistance in the way of railway subsidies, and in this locality we have all these parishes absolutely helpless for communication except by water.


George William Fowler: We have parishes along the St. John river without railway communication, and depending entirely upon the river to carry their products to market. They have no wharfs built by this government. In some places, I believe, the government has contributed a portion of the cost, the balance being made up by the provincial government. Now. I contend that New Brunswick should be treated in the same way as Quebec, where, as in this case, the circumstances are exactly the same.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know that my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) can compare the two rivers. However, both are important. My recollection is that the Dominion has contributed to a great many wharfs along the St. John. I think I put through a vote this year myself to assist the building of a wharf on 'that river. I think the people on the St. John are better accommodated than those cn the St. Lawrence.


George William Fowler: Since the present Minister of Public Works came into office there have been no contributions by the Dominion to wharfs on the St. John. Well, there may have been one. As to comparing the two rivers, I think there will be the same trade on one as on the other.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This part of the St. Lawrence is the most thickly populated part of our province and the most prosperous from an agricultural point of view. And the river is absolutely the only outlet for the trade, unless the people go forty miles back to the railway.


George William Fowler: Who owns the railway now 7


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not know. After James King died it passed into other hands.


George William Fowler: Does it not belong to the Grand Trunk 7


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: No, that runs farther back.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Does not the hon. minister think that, as the railway is as much interested as anybody in having the wharf there, they should contribute to the cost ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The railway, apparently is very little interested. They regard the competition by water as very serious. If the products of that country could not be exported by water the rate charged by the railway would be prohibitive. The brick yards would then be dependent exclusively on the road. The hon. gentleman can see what the rates would be running over this road to Lyster and on to Montreal or Quebec.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: The road must have been built for some purpose, and no doubt, it was to tranship the lumber. The government, in making this expenditure will benetit the railway. Of course, others will get benefit from it also, but it is to the special benefit of the railway to have a wharf there. Surely the railway ought to pay a part of the expense.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think the railway company will look up: n this as a detriment to them, because it will relieve the people of the locality from the monopoly which the railway would have but for the means provided to use the water transportation. If there is no wharf there, the people are at the mercy of the railway.


Edward Cochrane: Unless I misunderstood the Minister of Public Works there is a wharf there about three-quarters of a mile away.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is no good, and never can be made of use.


Edward Cochrane: I am a little bit afraid that, if it were not for the government proposing to make this expenditure, the present wharf would be considered very good.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I am sure my hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) simply wants to learn the facts as they are.


Edward Cochrane: Let me state my case-


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I want to say just one word. We on the St. Lawrence are in an unfortunate position because of the rise and fall of the tide. We have these shoals stretching far out from the shore, so that it is difficult to make wharfs. There is a wharf there built by Sir. King, but it is practically useless and cannot be made useful at any reasonable expense.


Edward Cochrane: I understood that the wharf was not a deep-water wharf. But the minister said the principal industry was the manufacture of brick. I. do not think the Minister of Justice will say that it would require a deep-water wharf to ship brick, because, I am satisfied those brick would be carried in barges. Here in Ottawa during the present session I have seen them again and again unloading brick from barges. Let me draw the minister's attention to the case of another wharf which I have in mind. The Central Ontario Railway runs back into the country, in Hastings county, and when a terminal wharf was wanted for that road the company built it at their own expense. I am satisfied that the brick will be carried in barges and not in steamers. Is not that correct ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.


Edward Cochrane: I sympathize with the people there, if they are without facilities to ship their products, and, I am willing to give my vote for the expenditure of public
money to provide these facilities where necessary. But I do not want to vote money to build a deep-water wharf for the accommodation of an industry if there is a wharf already there at which the products can be shipped.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would point out to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cochrane) that we are spending a good deal of money In the province of Ontario to help to provide terminals for railways.


George Taylor: In the absence of the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Calvin) I wish to make one more appeal to the hon. minister on behalf of the residents of Wolfe Island and Howe Island. There we have two municipalities situated at the foot of Lake Ontario. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (lit. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) knows all about them and can verify all I say. These two municipalities include a large population, yet the people have no opportunity to leave the island except by ferry, and I do not think the government have ever spent a dollar in building or maintaining a wharf in either of them. I think it quite time the Minister of Public Works should look into this matter, and I trust he will send his engineer to inquire, and that next year we shall find a sum in the estimates for a wharf there. I think that Ontario is entitled to something and the inhabitants of these islands should receive attention.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Is this where we are doing the dredging V


George Taylor: Yes. '


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will take a note of it and have the inquiry made.
Yamaska lock-dredging below lock, $8,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This estimate is asked for by the resident engineer, for dredging the River Yamaska below the Yamaska locks, to a depth of six feet. This river takes its rise in the county of Brome, and after a course of about 90 miles, empties into the St. Lawrence eight miles above the town of Sorel. It is a navigable river.
Department of Public Works-to provide for arrears of salary due to the chief architect, November 1, 1897 to June 30, 1903, at $3,200 per annum, together with $200 short-estimated in his salary for 1903-4, $1,333.33.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to pay arrears of salary due to the chief architect between the dates mentioned. The chief architect, Mr. Ewart, has been employed in the department since 1871. On the superannuation of Mr. Fuller he was appointed to the position at a salary of $3,200 per year, but he was never paid the full amount of his salary up to the present year.


George William Fowler: Why.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know why. It has been going on, and never was made right. This is to pay the balance due him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is not usual for men to let their salaries remain unpaid like that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This gentleman is one of those peculiar men who do not look carefully after their own interests, for he did let it lie all these years. He is entitled to it*as a matter of law, and be never got his increase. He is a very tine old gentleman.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Does the hon. gentleman think it is a sign that he is a very good servant if he does not look after his own interests better than that ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS It means that he was looking after public business more carefully than after his own.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: To say that he has been neglecting for six years to draw $200 a year coming to him is more than I can understand. It is strange that the department knew nothing about it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I did not say that. I said that as a matter of fact he only drew $3,000 a year, whereas he was entitled to $3,200 a year from the time he was appointed chief architect up to date.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I am afraid he is not a very good architect of his own fortunes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is so extraordinary that one can scarcely consider it witli patience. It looks so absurd that a man should allow this to be going on for six years and did not know enough to ask for it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not say that he did not know it. All I can say is that, as a matter of fact, the books show that he never drew his full salary.


George William Fowler: I think his action is highly commendable. It strikes me you ought to pay him interest on the arrears that he has allowed to accumulate.


Mr. FRASER.: He ought to suffer the loss of interest for his mistake.
Department of Public Works-salaries-to promote Mr. J. B. Hunter to a first-class clerkship notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act. $300.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Mr. Hunter is private secretary to the minister, and has proved a very hardworking, capable man, as every person admits. His present salary is $1,100.


George William Fowler: How many private secretaries has the minister ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say I have only one.


George William Fowler: 


George William Fowler: I must commiserate the minister if he has only one secretary. Evidently he is more modest than the Minister of Inland Revenue, who, I believe, has now three and an assistant.


Edward Cochrane: What has been done with the others ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will have a private conference with the hon. gentleman if he wants to know further.


Peter Macdonald: No. 140, the Yukon.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We want to know what the salaries are before that is called.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend will see that from the increased amount of work done in the department there must necessarily be a greatly increased expenditure for printing. Ail these specifications have to be printed; this is not for newspapers.


George William Fowler: I understood the hon. gentleman to refer to newspapers.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The subscriptions to newspapers have not increased. I understood my hon. friend to ask what had increased, and I was giving the principal items of increase. Printing, stationery and telegraph charges have increased owing to the increased number of works, and the greater number of men in the employment of the department.


George Taylor: I will have to ask this other Yukon item to stand; the hon. leader of the opposition is not present, and he will have something to say on this question. My hon. friend behind me will also have a statement that he will have to make either now or on concurrence, and I think it would be well to have the item stand.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend has made out a rather bad case, for I would rather put this through when these gentlemen are away. While I was anxious to get through. I must say that the opposition have treated me with a great deal of courtesy, and at their request I shall certainly allow the item to stand.
Some resolutions reported.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Eecess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher) moved that the House again go into Committee of supply.
['My right hon. friend the Prime Minister will make such a statement probably to-morrow, certainly not later than Monday. The Bill which the hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) has in charge, and which is being transferred to government Orders, with respect to the election law, will be taken up to-morrow. If that be disposed of, we will proceed with the estimates at the point where we left off to-night.']
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Owing to the absence of some members who wish to discuss the matter, the motion which it was intended

to move from this side of the House, will not he moved until a later- date.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into [DOT]Committee.
To provide for a grant to the Toronto Industrial Exhibition Association, to assist in the holding of a National Canadian Exhibition, in Toronto during the present year, 1903, $50,000.
['Owing to the absence of some members who wish to discuss the matter, the motion which it was intended\n\nto move from this side of the House, will not he moved until a later- date.']
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was not this amount voted last year ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No. It was agreed to by the government at an early period of the session, that it would be put into the supplementary estimates.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was it not decided last year to give this money ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, but there was never any vote taken for it. The exhibition took place within this fiscal year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Were there any conditions attached to this vote ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, the Order in Council explains the conditions. This is a letter which was written to the exhibition authorities under date of March 31st:
I have the honour by direction of the acting minister to inform you that an Order in Council has been passed, granting an amount to the Toronto Industrial Exhibition to assist in the holding of an all-Canadian exhibition in Toronto during the present year; such grant to be applied to the following purposes; first, to equalize freight rates for exhibitors. Second,, special and extraordinary prizes. Third, advertising outside the province of Ontario. Fourth, the cause of securing and maintaining an educational exhibit, and fifth, the increased cost in the management.
After the exhibition, I wrote to the authorities and asked them to give me some information as to the manner in which they had arranged to apply this money. 1 received the following details from Mr. Orr, manager and secretary of the exhibition -company :
The estimate under the headings named which was given to the government at the time the application was made will be approximately correct and is as follows :
Equalization of freight rates for exhibitors $15,000 ; special and extraordinary prizes, $14,000; advertising outside Ontario, $9,090 ; securing and maintaining educational exhibits, $8,000; increased cost of management due to the increased length of time the exhibition was held, and fine arts exhibit, $4,000, total, $50,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The reason I made the inquiry was, that one of the Toronto papers stated that this grant had not all been used, and that it was intended to return about $13,000 to the government. 1 was surprised. It displayed a magnanimity and an honesty that most corporations usually do not get credit for. However, I fully endorse tills grant. It did a great deal of
good, and I believe the exhibition was a great deal better than usual. I am sure it would be much appreciated if the grant were continued from year to year.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I hardly think we could promise that, because the Dominion government has not | been in the habit, for a number of years l back, of granting any help to local institutions, but this was an extraordinary occasion. The exhibition was very much better, I believe, than it had been for many years, or perhaps ever before. I think the grant accomplished the object aimed at.
Further amount required for fumigating stations. $500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why are we not able to estimate the cost of this in your main estimates, without spreading it over two or three votes ? It would require no very high degree of discernment on the part of the medical health officer, to calculate the amount he would need for this purpose.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This is for the fumigation of nursery stock.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why are you not able to make your calculation in the main estimates ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Last year we found our estimates had been exceeded, and we had to ask a supplementary estimate. We have to make provision for the same increase in expenditure tills year. It has been found that in British Columbia they can import nursery stock all through the winter, and as they have asked that their stations should be kept open for a longer period in the year than is the custom in the east, this increase is almost entirely due to that reason. In other stations we have had to pay a little higher for labour.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What has been the success of this system in keeping out the San .1 os6 scale V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The prohibition of the importation of nursery stock has kept the San JosS scale out of Canada, and the fumigation stations were a concession to the trade, so as to allow the importation of nursery stock at certain designated ports. I do not think there is any doubt that fumigation as carried on at these stations has been completely successful.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I saw a statement to the contrary some time ago in a paper. I forget what paper it was. It stated that some of the stock showed evidences of being affected after it was growing.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No such statement has been brought to my attention, and no complaint of that kind has ever come to the department. In the agricultural and horticultural press, where

I suppose we might expect to see such statements, nothing of the kind ever appeared.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many of these stations have we to-day, at how many places is stock allowed to be brought in, and what is the aggregate cost of this work ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The aggregate cost, with this supplementary vote, will be $3,000 a year. The stations are at Vancouver, B.C., Winnipeg, Man., Windsor and Niagara Falls, Ont., St. Johns, P.Q. and St. John, N.B. At each of these places we have a small house for fumigating purposes and a man in charge. He has to employ day labour occasionally when a large consignment comes in.
Further amount required for archives, $3,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is this for ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This is an addition to what we have already had for the archives in years gone by. It is required to provide for an entirely new arrangement of the work. Some four years ago a report was made to council by a commission of officials who were appointed to investigate the condition of our records and our state papers. That commission reported that there was| an immense mass of historical and other records of various kinds scattered through the various departments, that they were in a dangerous condition, and that a new arrangement ought to be made for their collection, care, classification and cataloguing. For one reason and another, chiefly because it was quite impossible to ask the late archivist, Mr. Douglas Brymner, at his time of life, to undertake a new work of that kind and reorganize the department, nothing was done ; but on the occasion of his demise and the consequent vacancy in the position of archivist, I drew up a memorandum to council recommending certain changes in the archives branch. These would involve a considerable addition to the work and the responsibility of the officer in charge, and would involve his having some assistance.


George Taylor: Who is in charge ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Nobody is in charge. No appointment has been made to the vacant position. The change would necessitate considerable work in the way of collecting these documents and records which are scattered through the different departments, and which we wish to bring together under a responsible officer, whose duty it will be to care for them, watch over them, study them, make extracts from them, and compile them for the report on the archives. I have no hesitation in saying that in the interest not only of the history of our country, but the safety of our records, this work is necessary. To show the danger and the necessity of some such work, I may mention that some years Hon. Mr. FISHER.
ago, by the order of a certain officer of the Militia Department, a number of boxes which appeared to contain waste paper were taken out of a room in the Militia Department and put in the furnace. It was afterwards found that in these boxes were a large number of important military plans and other papers of the greatest value from a historical and departmental point of view; and they had all been destroyed by people who were really not responsible, and had no right to act in that way. There has been abundant opportunity for that kind of thing to occur at any time in a number of our departments, and I think it is quite time that these important documents should be brought together and classified and catalogued and put into the charge of a responsible officer of sufficient standing.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would not be amiss if you extended the same protection to the ballots in Ontario.


Edward Hackett: Who is the chief clerk now at the head of that department V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The branch is under the charge of the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, along with all the other branches of the department. The clerk who has charge of the documents at present is a Mr. Duff, who has been for many years under the archivist.


Edward Hackett: I noticed a few days ago in one of the papers published in Ottawa that Mr. Casey, the late member for West Elgin, was to be appointed to that position.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No appointment has yet been made, and no decision has been come to in regard to it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that in 1892-93 we voted $8,000 for the archives : in 1893-91 we increased the vote to $9,000 ; andi now it is proposed to further increase it to $12,000. I cannot understand why it should be necessary to have a part of this item in the main estimates and a part of it in the supplementary estimates. It is not a matter in regard to which there can be any unusual demand created which could not be known at the time the main estimates are prepared. To divide the item in this way doubles the work in the House, and makes the matter less understandable. We have to make an inquiry into two items instead of one. thus virtually doing the work twice over.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is a good deal in what the bon. gentleman says, but in this particular instance the circumstances are different. The item in the main estimates was sufficient for the old work, but there has been a change made. It was only since I came back from Japan that I secured the consent of my colleagues to the change or the whole amount would have been in the main estimates.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then the hon. gentleman got this new idea in Japan.


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: I did not say that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see there is a vacancy, Mr. Brymner having died. Is it intended to fill that vacancy ?


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: I hope so, hut I did not wish to fill it until I had the assurance that these changes would he agreed to.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that the position reserved for our late colleague, Mr. Casey ?


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: It is not reserved for anybody.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I may say that if Mr. Casey is qualified-and I have no doubt he is-I would he glad, and I have no doubt that a great many other lion, members would be glad, to see him get it. I think many less deserving men have got positions. In my opinion, our late colleague, Mr. Casey, would be eminently fitted for the position, both on account of his literary qualifications and general ability.
Further amount required for Archives, $3,000.


Edward Hackett: What progress has been made with this work ? It is a very interesting subject to us in the maritime provinces to trace the families who came from France.


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: I can only say that Mr. Gaudet, who is in charge of the work, reports that he is making steady progress. He has been travelling in the maritime provinces to' secure data and lately he has been working at Ottawa compiling that data for the volume to be issued. It is a work in connection with the Acadian families, somewhat similar to the work of the late Abb6 Tanguay with regard to the French Canadian families of the province of Quebec. It will give information with regard to the lineage, genealogy and origin of the Acadian families in the maritime provinces. This item would not have been in the supplementary estimates had it not been inadvertently omitted from the main estimates.


Mr. COPP.: I take great interest in this matter. Mr. Gaudet has got all the information necessary to have the first volume issued with the exception of some information regarding a couple of censuses, which cannot be obtained in this country and which he is securing in Paris. Upon receipt of this information from Paris, the first volume will be completed, and be shortly in the possession of the public. Mr. Gaudet has assured me that he thinks he will be able, between this and next spring, to have the first volume published. The first volume is the- most difficult. He has all the material and data prepared for the issue of the second and third volumes. There will be in all probability about four volumes, and each will 423
follow the other very rapidly as soon as the first is published.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: While I have no special < bjection to this work. I fail to see why we should collect information about the Acadian families any more than about the English, Irish, Scotch, German or any other nationality. I do not see why parliament should vote money for keeping a work of that kind going on which will practically go on for ever, because when you start a work of that kind it rarely ever stops. It is like a pension, the recipient of which lives a very long time. Why this work should be done for one nationality any more than another is what I cannot understand.


Edward Hackett: I must object to the remarks of the hon. gentleman. The hon.
gentleman and myself are both descendants of the old Irish race and we are proud of it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you want a record of
your genealogy '!


Edward Hackett: We have a record. What we are seeking to obtain is a genealogy of the old Acadian people, the first settlers of the eastern provinces, and it seems to me that the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is not exhibiting that broadness of mind which should distinguish a descendant of the race to which he and I belong when he objects to this work. I would like to ask the hon. minister if Mr. Gaudet is still in charge of that work and has he made any report ?


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: Yes, Mr. Gaudet is in charge of the work, and he has reported verbally from time to time, but there is no published report.


Mr. GALLERY.: Do I understand from the hon. member for Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hackett) that the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is an Irishman. That is something new to me. I always understood that the hon. gentleman from East Grey came from' Scotland.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is a strange coincidence but the hon. member for East Grey had the same impression with regard to the hon. member for Montreal. But I have to say in reply to my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island, who complains that a man is not very broad in his views who objects to this expenditure, that I think the breadth of view of the hon. member for East Grey will compare favourably with that of the hon. member from Prince Edward Island, as regards anything pertaining to the welfare of the country. If it be the aim of parliament to set apart a portion of money for the purpose of tracing the history and the record of the different nationalities of this country, I have no objection. But I ask, why select the Aca-dians in preference to the others ? While



I have no objectim to the [DOT] Aca-dians-on the contrary my acquaintance with them leads me to the conclusion that they are a very estimable people-I fail to see why this work should be done for them any more than for the II. E. Loyalists, who came to this country and who are reputed to be the pioneers of this continent, and whose name stands so high in the history of the world to day.


Charles Marcil: Why not do it for the U. E. Loyalists ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is what I say. If it is desirable to do it for one nationality, why not for the other, and to make a selection of one seems to me like partiality. I am not objecting to this, provided it is thought desirable to carry it out with regard to any celebrated class in the country who have a notable history. But what I object to is the fact that one nationality is selected and all others ignored. That is what I cannot understand or regard as just.


Mr. BLAIN.: When may we expect the first volume of the work ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think it is expected about next spring.


Richard Blain: How much has been expended oh it up to date ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This item of $1,400, being $1,200 for salary and $200 for travelling expenses for the gentleman in charge, has been voted for three years.


Mr. BRUCE.: With regard to the remarks that the hon. member for Montreal, St. Anne (Mr. Gallery) made. I may say that if he wished to discover a Scotchman in the House he has only to look in this direction. I am at a loss to understand why a distinction should be made between nationalities in such a grant, as is being done.


Daniel Gallery: As that point has come up again, I would like to correct the hon member from West Prince (Mr. Hackett). I distinctly state that the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is not an Irishman. If I understood him aright, the hon. member for West Prince said that the hon. member for East Grey was an Irishman.


Edward Hackett: I insist on the fact that the hon. member for East Grey is an Irishman, and just as good an Irishman as the hon. member for Montreal, St. Anne.


Mr. HENDERSON.: If I understand the meaning of the word ' Irish ' as used in the north of Ireland, I would say that the hon. member for East Grey is not Irish, according to the strict use of the word. And so I think the hon. member for Montreal, St. Anne, is quite correct. If in Ireland today, the hon. member for East Grey would repudiate the designation of ' Irish ' as applied to him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think, since this seems to be a disputed question, that we had better have another branch of this inquiry to determine' the genealogy of the hon. member for Montreal, St. Anne, aud myself, and determine to what nationality we belong.
Further amount required for renewing and improving Canadian exhibit at Imperial Institute. London, $5,000.


George Taylor: Before this item is discussed, I have a matter I wish to bring before the attention of the Minister of Agriculture. It is not quite apropos of the item, but there was a matter brought to my attention in a letter which I handed to the hon. member for Prince Edward (Mr. Alcorn). That hon. gentleman is not in his seat and I have not the letter, so I can only give the information I have. First I would inquire if Mr. J. G. Anderson is an inspector of fruit in the Department of Agriculture ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: He is. I answered that question yesterday.


George Taylor: The information I have is to this effect-that this gentleman who is inspector of fruit and drawing pay from the government, is also an apple buyer aud speculator, and ships apples every day to the market at Ottawa. These are facts I know. The statement is made that he will go to a farmer to purchase his fruit, aud, if the farmer does not sell to him at his own price but sells to another speculator, Mr. Anderson is brought in to inspect the fruit aud cuts him down to the last point. And so the farmers of Prince Edward are under compulsion to sell to Mr. Anderson. That is the statement made in this letter from one of the large dealers in Ottawa, and now in possession of my hon. friend from Prince Edward.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This is the first I have heard of such a charge. I know nothing about it. Mr. Anderson was a dealer in fruit before he was appointed inspector. When he was appointed he had to close out his business and cense carrying on any trade of that kind. If he is dealing in fruit he must either cease doing so or cease to be inspector. My inspectors cannot for a moment be allowed to deal in fruit or to have anything to do with the trade.


George Taylor: The writer of this letter says that Mr. Anderson is shipping apples to Ottawa every day in the week, and he is his own inspector.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I will inquire into that.


George Taylor: Of course, Mr. Anderson is a very strong supporter of hon. gentlemen opposite and an electioneering agent through the country, and he must draw a salary in order to keep in the field. Yet,

he is making his profits out of purchasing apples.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: All I can say is what I have already said- that this is the first I have heard of this allegation, and with all due deference to my hon. friend's informant, I do not believe it. But I will make inquiries. And, as I said a1 moment ago, no inspector in my department is, or can be, allowed to deal in fruit. I will investigate the matter and secure the information.


Robert Lorne Richardson: What is the object aimed at in this Canadian exhibit at the Imperial Institute in London V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The older members of the House will remember that a good many years ago, at the time of the Queen's jubilee, the Imperial Institute was established in London, specially for the purpose of having an exhibit of colonial industrial products. Propositions were made to the Dominion government to secure their co-operation. The institution was then under the patronage and presidency of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the present King. The arrangement come to at that time was that the provincial governments should deal with their respective exhibits in the Imperial Institute in London, the Dominion government taking no pai't. This went on for many years, but complaints began to arise and were voiced in this House by hon. members on both sides who said that the Canadian exhibits in the institute were not at all creditable to the country. The High Commissioner iu London made very strong representations to the government on the question, and asked that some thing should be done to improve the character of the exhibit there. I was over in London some few years ago and visited the institute. On so doing, I fully concurred in the view that the exhibits of Canada's products there were entirely inadequate and not creditable to Canada. After a good deal of discussion, I asked for a small item in the estimates to improve those exhibits. That was granted me to the extent of $3,000. Almost immediately after the vote was given the imperial authorities undertook to reorganize the Imperial Institute. It had been under the control of a royal commission of eminent people of the old country who were specially interested in it and who had been invited to take part in its management by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, and joined with them were colonial representatives, including the High Commissioner for Canada, at first Sir Charles Tupper and afterwards his successor Lord Strathcona. Tile different Canadian provinces have had each a representative. Speaking from memory, I think that three of the provinces asked Lord Strathcona to act as their representative, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and perhaps some other provinces had their local 423*
representative in England. The institute, I may say, had been getting into disrepute and! had almost failed of its object, and the imperial authorities, after consultation with the various representatives of Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada, decided on a change. It took a long time to carry that change through, and for two years back the fate of the Imperial Institute has been hanging in the balance. This last winter, after the main estimates were submitted to this House, Lord Strathcona sent out a communication to us explaining that at last the institute has been taken over by the Imperial Board of Trade, which is the department corresponding to our Department of Trade and Commerce, and that in the future the Imperial Institute was to be managed as a branch of the Board of Trade, but with the concurrence and co-operation of the different colonies. They proposed some additional work in the shape of a city branch. I ought to say perhaps for the information of those who are not familiar with it, that the Imperial Institute is located at South Kensington, in the part of London where the great exhibition of 1862 took place, quite out of the business part of the city, although it is a place where there is a large number of museums and educational establishments. The new organization and management propose to have a city office with show-rooms and accommodation for a library and reading rooms. In addition to that they have asked the various colonies to fit up the exhibits in the institute proper in South Kensington, on a grander and better scale, and completely to renovate the exhibit.
Now, this work seems to fall naturally into the exhibition work of my own department, and when Lord Strathcona's communication was received by the government here, after careful consideration, we concluded it was in the interest of Canada to be worthily and properly represented in that institute, and we propose to carry out the scheme as submitted by Lord Strathcona, after discussion with the authorities of the institute. That scheme involves a slight increase iu the expenditure of the ordinary work of the institute, and an increased subscription to the city office, and the employment in addition of a caretaker, of a stenographer or clerk, who will be able to reply to correspondents and to be present, either at the west end institute building or in the city alternately with the curator himself. This office expenditure which we are asked to agree to by the imperial authorities involves an expenditure of about $6,000 a year. I propose to ask altogether for $8,000, $2,000 to be devoted to preparing, sending and installing the characteristic exhibits of Canadian products. Six thousand dollars will not be all, because Lord Strathcona, as the representative of the different provinces, is asking them to continue their contribution to the general expenditure of the exhibition,

and in that case there will be a sum of money available out of the sum I am asking, to arrange for the permanent exhibits, and also to arrange for the temporary exhibits of a particular character. The main estimates for the current year included a sum of $3,000 for this Imperial Institute, the same as we have had for two or three years back, and I ask this $5,000 additional to make the $8,000 which will be necessary to carry out the scheme outlined by Lord Strathcona.


Mr. ROBINSON (Elgin).: What will be the nature of these exhibits ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have a memorandum which Lord Strathcona sent out here in which he says in regard to that:
The scheme is for the arrangement and reorganization of the exhibits in the South Kensington building of the institute. Visitors will in future be assisted in getting information by special demonstrations in the courts, by means of pamphlets and other printed information systematically distributed, and also by public lectures.
6. It is understood that a number of the colonies are in favour of placing the responsibility for the care, maintenance and renewal of their collections-at the expense of the colonies-on the authorities of the Imperial Institute, who would of course be in close communication with the respective colonial governments on these subjects. The Canadian collections now need complete renewal and numerous additions to make them thoroughly representative of the country, and no doubt the Imperial Institute will if desired, be prepared (in conjunction with the curator) submit a scheme for this work, and to explain how it is proposed- to carry it out.
He goes on to explain what has been in the past, and then be says :
I understand that a special staff is to be appointed by the hoard of trade, in connection with the collections, so that their care and maintenance shall be continually attended to. This arrangement would set the Canadian officer (now-termed the curator) free from much of the routine work, and would enable him to devote himself almost exclusively to answering the inquiries addressed to the Canadian section, and to supplying information to intending emigrants and commercial men. The collections at the Imperial Institute might be further utilized with great advantage by our own emigration department for the purpose of illustrating the general natural resources and industries of the Dominion. The board of trade propose to amalgamate their own commercial intelligence department now at Whitehall, with the office established by the Imperial Institute in the city of London, where additional premises will be taken.
Then he goes on to say that the colonies will have an opportunity to occupy offices in that building. One part of the exhibit will be in the commercial city of London and the other in this west end place.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why is it desirable to have two ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: To accommodate the .larger exhibit in the Hon. Mr. FISHER.
city would require an enormous expenditure to get sufficient room. The building is a very large one, and it would require an enormous expenditure to transfer that to the city and to procure the accommodation required for these exhibits. They wish to have what may be called a business branch in the city, at which information may be given and temporary and partial exhibits can be made of particular articles at particular times. It is taken from the west end branch or part of that supplied temporarily. I would suggest that we in Canada could very properly take one of the rooms in tiie city branch and from time to time make exhibits of different Canadian products. For instance, at one time we could have an exhibit of dairy products, butter and cheese, another time an exhibit of bacon, at another time of dressed poultry, at another time of minerals, or of some particular mineral with which Canada is particularly favoured. Then we might make an exhibiit of certain manufactured g ods which we thought we might be able to induce the British people to buy. These exhibits would be temporary, lasting perhaps a week or two weeks. These exhibits could be especially advertised and special invitations could be sent to those engaged in trade in the particular product which might be ou exhibition. That is the object in keeping the city office in addition to maintaining the reading rooms and supplying information to business men in the city who have not time and who would not take the trouble to go to South Kensington to make inquiries, hut who would call at a room or building in the city of London.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That would mean a dual set of officers.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: 
Jabel Robinson: Has the hon. gentleman seen the building ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have seen the Kensington building, but

not the city offices, I do not think they are yet taken. When Lord Strathcona was! here, about a month or two ago, they had not yet engaged or acquired any city office.


Jabel Robinson: In what part of Whitehall will the building be ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It will not be in Whitehall ; it will be down, in the city in the neighbourhood of the Royal Exchange. Last year, or the year before, we had a temporary city office in Eastclieap, which is a little east of the Royal Exchange, but I understand from Lord Strathcona that they have given that up and are going to get larger and better rooms.


Jabel Robinson: Then I understand that these exhibits will consist of the natural products of the soil, the forest and the mine ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: And industrial products as well.


Jabel Robinson: Have you provided for large maps to be displayed in these buildings, so that the people may understand the geography of Canada ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not yet made any definite plan in that respect. We have to-day in my department a large map which was exhibited at Paris, and which I think is now in London, and that map could be utilized. In fact I gave orders a little while ago that that map should be kept in London for the purposes of the Imperial Institute. It is a very fine map of the Dominion of Canada.


Jabel Robinson: It would be a good plan to show on that map the unoccupied lands in Canada adapted for cultivation and settlement.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is shown on the map.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I would ask the minister if there is anything in this exhibit to demonstrate what progress Canada is making in the fine arts 1


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have not any fine art exhibit there ; it is an exhibit purely of what I might call the natural and industrial arts of the country.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I wish to offer a few- remarks on a subject that is perhaps germane to this question. Wre have in this city a gallery of fine arts, so-called. It is entirely unworthy of this country, and of this city, and some provision ought to be made with the view to procuring a better exhibit of the works of Canadian artists. Canada has already found a place in the appreciation of the artistic world beyond the confines of this country. Canadian art is recognized in the United States, and has had very favourable notice from American
critics, while we at home seem to be less appreciative than we should be of what our artists are doing and struggling to do. The fine arts can make progress in any country only by having some reasonable patronage, either from the wealthy people of the country or from the government. Art has made the greatest progress where it has had the support and patronage and recognition of governments. I notice that several new pictures have been added to the collection at the old rookery in Ottawa which we call an art gallery, and on inquiry, I have been informed that some $7,000 have been expended in the purchase of pictures, the culls of the studios of the old world, which could not be disposed of there and which have been sold through some medium to the Canadian government. I am not an art critic, but I have been privileged to see some of the rarest collections of art in the old world, and I am bound to say that we have in the gallery some work of Canadian artists which is worthy of a place in any art gallery in the world. But there are some very meritricious works in our gallery, and I fear that some works have recently been added at a large expense which could have been bought from some picture dealers by people who know how to go about it, for perhaps from $10 to $20 each. How they have added to the collection in this city to the extent of $7,000, I fail to see, while the works of Canadian artists have been passed over without recognition or notice. I am sure that we have occasion to be proud that we have in this young country- for we are still a young country-such a development of artistic taste and ability as has taken place in Canada in the last eight, ten or fifteen years. We have in Canada men who have made for themselves a place in the old world ; a picture by Paul Peel in our gallery is worthy of a place in any art gallery in the world. We have such names as Homer, Watson, Cote, Verner, Harris, Krieghoff, Gauthier, Forbes, Brownell, Sherwood, Bell, Smith, in Ontario and Quebec, while in British Columbia we have working Mower Martin, a man who has contributed a great deal to Canadian art. In Nova Scotia we have Mr. Miles, and then in New Brunswick we have an artist whose name I cannot now recall, of whom a well known art critic in America has said that if he were selecting the three greatest artists in America he would not omit his name. I think the time has come when these men should have some fair consideration. It is thought by some that in the rural districts, among the toilers of the country, there is not that recognition of art there should be ; it is felt that they do not consider art and attach importance to it. I can tell the House that this is not so, and that importance is attached to art in this country, and there is a budding and steady growth and development of artistic taste. In this connection T will reJ

1351ft
late a little Incident that came in my own expei'ienee. I was looking over some fine Christmas cards in a shop just before Christmas, when a man came in with whom I entered into conversation. I said something about their being beautiful, and he said : Well, there is great waste of money in these things. I said : Do you think so; have you no love for pictures ? He replied-None at all; I suppose there are hundreds of dollars spent on these things, I told them that there were tens of thousands of dollars spent on them, and he said that it was a terrible waste of money. And I said to him : You have no appreciation of pictures or of the beautiful; I have never seen where you live, but still I can tell you what it is like; if you come to it on a June day you will see thistles and weeds growing in the fields and between the fences; you will see no avenue of shade trees, leading from the roadway to your house, and if they were there you would cut them down for firewood; you will see no flower beds ornamenting your garden; nothing of the beautiful; if your buildings have any paint at all the colours are inharmonious and incongruous; your farm is cultivated in a slovenly manner; your fence corners are filled with weeds, and your outbuildings are in a ruinous condition. He said : That will do, I do not want to hear any more. I had the fortune to be passing by his place some time afterwards, and when my companion told me who lived there, I said : Turn in, I want to have a look at it. I went up to the door of his house and he met me, and he recollected the picture I had drawn. It was too true. Nature has placed us in a grand country. We have the means of making Canada a place of paradisiacal beauty. It only needs the development of the artistic faculty to make our roads, our fields, our homes and everything about us beautiful. There are no more beautiful trees in the world than the Canadian maple, which we have chosen as our national emblem. No one can travel through Canada at this season of the year without feeling that it is a constant panorama of beauty, unequalled in any part of the world. We only need a recognition of the artistic taste which I believe we have in this country. We need our fellow countrymen who have sufficiently advanced their artistic taste to be genuine critics in this respect, should bring into our art galleries these Canadian paintings which are worthy to be in any art gallery in the world. We should have art centres in every large city in Canada, and we should make our native art accessible to our young Canadians. It is not a useless expenditure: it is an expenditure which will redound immensely to the credit of all Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I cannot refrain from thanking the hon. gentleman {Mr. Richardson) for his appro-


Robert Lorne Richardson: priate and eloquent address. Unfortunately I cannot act upon the suggestions he has made, but I will draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works, in whose department the matter is, to the remarks of my hon. friend. I appreciate very highly what he has said with reference to our Canadian artists. We have a group of men, and I may say of women too, whose art works exhibited in the art centres of the old country, would attract attention even amongst the best. The hon. gentleman has given us a list of the greatest Canadian artists, and I have no doubt there are others whose art will confer credit on this country. I endorse what the hon. gentleman has said with reference to the art gallery in Ottawa. We have pictures there worthy of any gallery.
I recognized a picture there the other day by Paul Peel to which this remark would apply, and right alongside it is a picture of a young Canadian, by Mr. Robert Harris, which was presented by a lady of Ottawa, and which shows the true characteristics of the young Canadian of whom we are all so proud. There have been one or two pictures added to the gallery lately which are certainly most creditable. The picture by Ten Kate is a splendid specimen of Dutch art, and friends of mine who are art critics have praised very much the work of Chall-ener, which has recently been added to the gallery. We have lately increased the amount to be devoted to this work, and we have provided that these works are to be purchased under the advice of a committee of artists to be chosen from the members of the Royal Canadian Academy. I have no doubt that by this means there will be added to the gallery in the future, works of merit.' I trust that before long we will have a building worthy of Canadian art, and that there will be a national museum in this capital city, which will include a picture gallery in which will be exhibited the finest works of our country. I would not, however, like to have these confined entirely to the works of Canadian artists, because 1 feel that we should have accessible there, for the inspiration and study of Canadian artists, paintings, by the masters of the old country. I must confess that I would advise the purchase of first-class works of foreign schools. We are young in art but we are making progress. As an encouragement to my hon. friend (Mr. Richardson) I would say that I have made arrangements with the Royal Canadian Academy to assist them out of the funds which parliament has voted, to secure a representative and creditable exhibition of Canadian art at St. Louis exhibition. At the Pan-American exhibition the Canadian academy made a most creditable showing, and I believe that at the greater exhibition which is to be held in St. Louis, Canadian artists will be able to achieve even greater success than at Buffalo. I again thank my hon. friend (Mr. Richardson) for the patriotic words he has uttered

on behalf of Canadian art, and I trust they will sink into the minds of all who hear them and of all who will read them.


Robert Lorne Richardson: In mentioning a few names of Canadian artists, I might have included Cote, and Forbes, and Knowles, and Sherwood, and others of great ability. As to the suggestion of the hon. minister that the selection of paintings should be left entirely to artists, I must say that is an open question. There are no more jealous men in the world than artists, they all admit it themselves. We have in the history of English art the name of the celebrated portrait painter Romney, one of the grandest that British art has ever produced; and yet he had to struggle on and be kept out of recognition from the very first, by the jealousy of men like Sir Joshua Reynolds, though he was far superior to them all. Therefore we should not lose sight of the fact that artists as a class are very jealous of each other, and good art critics who have the means of possessing themselves of specimens of art should have some recognition.
Mr. IiACKETT. I am very much pleased indeed to find that the hon. Minister of Agriculture is endeavouring to encourage art in this country. I desire to state in this connection that one of the gentlemen he has named, Mr. Harris, of Montreal, is a native of Prince Edward Island. In the encouragement of art and learning, our small province has not been neglected. We have given you Harris, one of the chief artists of Montreal ; Shuman, the president of Cornell University, and Archbishop O'Brien, of the city of Halifax. The progress of art shows the highest advancement of civilization, and I trust that my hon. friend will see his way clear to bestow on the artists of this country every possible recognition.
Grant to assist the Canadian Association for the prevention of tuberculosis, $2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is that for ? Is that in connection with cattle ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, it is in connection with the association which was formed in Ottawa two or three years ago under the patronage of His Excellency, following the lead of the association which was formed in Great Britain under the patronage of His Majesty the King, for the purpose of spreading information amongst the people at large as to how the spread of the dread disease of tuberculosis could be prevented and lessened by ordinary means independent of medical practice. I have here a memorandum from the secretary of the association, in which he states that a large amount of literature is being sent out. The secretary himself is devoting his whole time to the work. He goes about the country at the request of medical associations and gives lectures and explanations with regard to it. The association holds an annual meeting in Ottawa, at which papers
are read by eminent medical gentlemen, and these are printed and distributed throughout the country. The money is used chiefly in paying the secretary and in defraying the cost of distributing the literature.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was at the annual meeting of the association, which I think will be productive of good ; but it occurred to me that additional benefit might result if articles were written and sent periodically for publication in local papers, giving directions regarding the prevention of the disease. It must take more than this amount of money to keep the association up.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is a subscription for membership in the association. I dot not think any fee is exacted, but a large number of people have subscribed various sums, some of them quite handsome sums, towards its expenses.
Further amount required for repairs to government Bteamers ' Stanley and Lansdowne,' $27000.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: With regard to the ' Stanley,' public tenders were called for by advertisements in the press of Montreal, Quebec, St. John, Halifax, Charlottetown and Pic-tou for removing indentations from plating and reinforcing the plates. The tender of the Pictou Foundry and Machine Company being the lowest, their tender was accepted for $3,975. Extensive repairs are now being made to the engines and boilers by Bruce Stewart & Company, Charlottetown, by day's labour. The boilers are fourteen years old, and, owing to the severe test these parts are exposed to and the nature of the work, the boilers and1 machinery require to be kept in the best condition possible. Besides the repairs to the engines and boilers the deck-houses became loose and are being thoroughly and strongly repaired. These repairs will be the means of putting the ship in excellent condition for thei winter ice work. The department considers that the repairs to the 'Stanley' to make her fit for the winter work will not exceed $15,000. If the ship had been sent to England to her builders to be repaired, the cost wiould be in the vicinity of $40,000, if! not more, as the expenses of the taking the vessel to England and keeping a crew would be considerable.	,
In regard to the repairs to the ' Lansdowne ' tenders were invited for placing a new main boiler and funnel mountings. The tender of the estate of James Fleming of St. John being the lowest, for $8,820, was accepted. This is considered a very low figure.	.
In addition, tenders were invited for six fresh-water tanks, and the tender of the estate of James Fleming was accepted for this work for $2,135. Tenders were also asked for the painting, according to specification. These tanks are fitted in the hold for the

purpose of carrying fresh-water for the use of the boiler and ship's service, as well as for the fog alarms which the ' Lansdowne ' visits, such as Gannet Rock and other isolated places.
The amount asked for is considered ample to make the extensive and necessary expenses required.
Iu addition to the repairs to the ' Stanley ' and the ' Lansdowne,' I may say that when the ' Minto ' and the ' Stanley ' were icebound last winter, there was a possibility of both steamers being pushed ashore by the ice, and, in that event these valuable ships would certainly have been lost.
The department had arranged with the owners of the sealing steamer ' Newfoundland ' to go to the assistance of the disabled ships, and although the ' Newfoundland ' did not succeed in reaching the ' Minto ' and 1 Stanley,' still there is a claim for services rendered by that vessel which amount will be paid out of the above vote.


Edward Hackett: Where are those repairs going on 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: At the Pictou Foundry and Machine Company, who were the lowest tenderers, and the amount is $3,975. The other repairs are made by Bruce Stewart and Company, of Charlottetown.


Edward Hackett: What are the other repairs ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The repairs to the machinery and engine are made by Bruce, Stewart & Company.


Edward Hackett: When will this work be completed ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Towards the end of this month.


Edward Hackett: Where does the lion gentleman intend placing the ' Stanley ' ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I have not yet decided. I intend to visit Prince Edward Island myself, if the session does not last too long. Otherwise I will consult the officials of the department.


Edward Hackett: I trust the hon. minister will see his way clear to placing the ' Stanley ' on the route between Cape Tor-mentine and Summerside. Does it require a visit from the hon. minister to decide this ?


Robert Laird Borden: I trust that the session will not last so long that the hon. gentleman will get lost in the ice when he does get down. Did we not have same vote for the repairs on those steamers last year ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Yes, we have votes every year to repair these boats.


Hon. Mr. PREFONTAINE.: 


Robert Laird Borden: How much was voted last year and what was the nature of the repairs 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The total vote in 1902-3 was $273,000, and the expenditure was $275,000. In 1903-4, including the present vote, the amount was $277,000.


Robert Laird Borden: How much was voted last year for repairs on these steamers ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The amount this year is not an extraordinary one. It is only $2,000 more than the previous year.


Robert Laird Borden: I have evidently not made myself quite clear. Here we have a special vote of $27,000 for repairs to the ' Stanley ' and ' Lansdowne.' I suppose there are repairs every year but not anything like that amount. My recollection is that a very considerable vote for repairs on these two steamers was given last year, and I want to ascertain just what that was. It seems to me that $27,000 is beyond the normal amount which should be expended each year.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Most of the expenditures last year for repairs were on the ' Stanley ' and 'Aberdeen.' This year they are on the ' Stanley ' and the ' Lansdowne.'


Edward Hackett: It is very important to tile island that communication should be maintained winter and summer between it and the mainland. This government has undertaken to keep up that communication, and what I am insisting upon is that we should have the ' Stanley ' on the route between Cape Tormentine and Summerside. But the minister will not give any definite reply. I ask again if that is the intention of the government 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I shall not declare anything of tlie sort, because if I were to decide one way or the other I would be sure to arouse (lie Hostility of one section of the island, besides I do not know at present what is tlie best line and shall have to wait for informa tion.


Edward Hackett: I presume that the hon. gentleman desires to do what is right, and I hope therefore he will see his way clear to placing the * Stanley ' on the route between Summerside and Cape Tormentine. There is another question of great importance and that is the building of a third boat for the island. We have during the session voted away millions of dollars to other provinces, and I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that there is no province in this Dominion more deserving of consideration than the province of Prince Edward Island. I insist that the third boat shall be constructed for the purpose of maintaining that com-

munication. Yesterday we had a question on the Order paper by my hon. friend from East Prince (Mr. Lefurgey) with regard to the loss sustained by the shippers of frozen fish and other products from that province.
I would like to have the minister tell us if he intends to compensate these people for the loss sustained.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The question was put yesterday, and I answered that the claims had been received and that the matter was under consideration.


Edward Hackett: That is a very plausible answer, but I insist on having something more definite. Is it the intention of the government to compensate the young men of Prince Edward Island for the losses they sustained?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Every legitimate claim, of course, will be entertained. But all have to be looked into, and the Department of Justice lias to be consulted as to whether we are responsible or not. It is a very serious question, as the hon. gentleman knows, and we have to take the necessary precautions.


Edward Hackett: The minister is very cautious. He wants to be advised by the Minister of Justice. I insist that this is a case for the consideration of the government. We have no legal claim against them at all. But the loss arose through the failure of the government boat to carry the freight from Georgetown to Pictou. Will not the minister himself, as having charge of these boats and knowing the circumstances through which the loss arose, grant the young men of Prince Edward Island compensation for the loss which they have sustained ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I shall certainly not come to a decision without consulting the Department of Justice, for our decision involves immediately a very large amount. Then there is the question of law to be decided, for it may be that this case would establish a precedent. Under the circumstances, my hon. friend (Mr. ITackett) must see that the question cannot be decided offhand. It may be necessary to appoint experts to ascertain the amounts, and also whether the interruption to navigation was inevitable, or whether it was caused by the officers of the department. These things have to be looked into, but the hon. gentleman knows very well that we have been (busy with the session of parliament ever since the claims have been presented, so that, whatever my desire to do justice to these people, there has been no opportunity to adjust the claims.


Edward Hackett: I allege no legal claim against any officer of the department or
against the minister. But I would like to have the minister consider the fact that the young men of Prince Edward Island had their products ready for the market, and those products were delayed at Georgetown on account of the absence of the government steamer. This is not a legal case. Our young men are not going to go to law with the government. What we insist upon is that the government, in their own way, shall grant to the people of Prince Edward Island compensation for the losses sustained.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: This matter is of the utmost importance to the people of Prince Edward Island. Early in the session 1 reviewed the history of the boats engaged in the work of maintaining communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland last winter. We certainly do not want a recurrence of the disastrous events of that season, events due, as I pointed out, to neglect on the part of the department and bad administration at the island end of the winter boat service. The minister, on that occasion, said that he intended to take a trip to the island to look into the question of placing the boats so as to prevent a recurrence of what took place last winter. As we all know, the session has kept the minister here, and he will not have time to go to the island this year. The session is likely to go on for tour or five weeks yet, and, by that time, the 'Stanley' and 'Minto' should be placed and shippers should know exactly where the boats are going to ply. Last year, after the ' Northumberland,' the summer boat, stopped at Summerside, it was over a fortnight before the ' Stanley ' was put on the route between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, and even then it was after much telegraphing and humbugging between the department here and the agent of the department at Prince Edward Island. Anybody who looks over the correspondence of that time will be appalled at the humbugging that went on before that boat was put upon the route from Cape Tormentine to Summer-side. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries knows that that is not a desirable state of affairs; and, while he will not be able to visit Prince Edward Island to look into the facts himself, he knows that shippers to and from the island need to be informed in good time as to the arrangements to be made. There are goods coming through from the United Kingdom, from the United States and from the upper provinces, and shippers must know how they are to send their goods. They want to know whether the 1 Stanley ' will be on the route between Summerside and Cape Tormentine immediately after the summer boat is withdrawn. That is the vital point. The matter should not be delayed until the summer boats stop, and then have a repetition of the humbugging that went on last year, when shippers could not get freight rates and could not learn where the boats would ply. And

even when we did get the * Stanley,' she was in Georgetown cutting boats out of the ice instead of rendering the service she should have rendered at the beginning of the winter. This is- a most vital question to the commercial interests of Prince Edward Island. The neglect of last year in carrying out the compact by not arranging for these boats in good time, and using the ' Minto ' to cut the ' Stanley ' free when she was caught in the ice at Summerside-these things are responsible for the condition of affairs from which we suffered last winter. My hon. friend from West Prince (Mr. Hackett) has called attention to the way in which the shippers suffered loss because the ' Minto ' was taken off her legitimate course and taken to the relief of the ' Stanley,' which had been caught in the ice, where she remained for two months and had finally to be taken out by the government of Prince Edward Island, assisted by the board of trade. I pointed out the legal aspect of the question when I brought it before the House. If the question is to be decided on the legal merits of the claim, there are strong facts bearing on the case to be considered. But, as the hon. member for West Prince said, we do not want to compel these men to take legal action against the government. It is the duty of the government, under the circumstances, to consider more than the legal aspects of the case. The goods were waiting at Georgetown to be transported across to Pictou, and they were not transported because the government, whose duty it was to provide the means of transportation, had failed to do so. It is the duty of the government to compensate the people for the loss they sustained on that occasion. Before I sit down I would like to have an assurance from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that this matter will not be left until the last moment, and that the people of Prince Edward Island will be notified that the boat ' Stanley ' will be put on the route from Summerside to Cape Tormentine, at least as long as there is open navigation to those points, and that the ' Minto ' will be placed on the Charlottetown and Georgetown to Pictou route.


Edward Hackett: Will the minister state what is the intention of the government this year in connection with maintaining communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: We intend to maintain the communication.


Edward Hackett: Where will you place the boats 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I said the question had not1 been decided. We have two months yet to decide.


Edward Hackett: We must insist that a boat shall run between Tormentine and Mr. LEFUROEY-
Summerside. Is it the intention of the government to build a third boat to maintain this communication 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: We have not yet considered the construction of a third boat.


Edward Hackett: Well, if the government desire to maintain that communication they must build a third boat. We are a small province, but our rights rank side by side with the rights of the other provinces. Now, I would like to ask the minister again, does he intend building this third boat to maintain that communication 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I have told the hon. gentleman that that question has not yet been considered.
Further amount required for examination of masters and mates, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: We have replaced Captain Smith, deceased, by Captain Reginald Salmon, at a salary of $2,000. There has been a necessary increase in the expenditure, and the former amount of $5,000 has been increased to $7,000. This department is being thoroughly reorganized under a very able officer, and we try to make it as effective as possible. Captain Salmon is an officer of the Royal Naval Reserve, holding the rank of lieutenant.


Robert Laird Borden: Is his salary larger than that enjoyed by Captain Smith 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: It is $200 more.


Robert Laird Borden: Even so, why do you require $2,000 additional 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: On account of salary and travelling expenses. Last year we inaugurated) a system of holding investigations into every casualty that occurred, and the expenses connected with the travelling of Captain Salmon are a good deal more than they used to be when we held examinations only in special cases. The members of tbe committee will recollect that this has been done at the special request of the Board of Trade in England, in order to render the service as effective as possible.


George William Fowler: But what has the investigation into wrecks to do with the examination of masters and mates 7


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: He has to travel to hold these examinations.
Mr. FOWLER- There is an item, just below, ' further amount required for investigation of wrecks.' The minister is looking in the wrong place. The minister shakes his head. Does he mean this committee to understand that this first item, ' further amount required for examination of masters

and mates,' is required by the expenses of investigations into wrecks covered by the item below '!


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Besides the salary of Captain Salmon, the department has to provide for the salaries of the examiners at several shipping ports in British Columbia, Quebec, and the maritime provinces. The late Captain Smith also travelled in connection with the examination of masters and mates, and some of his expenses had to be specially voted. Now, instead of leaving them behind, we thought it was better to provide for them along with the travelling expenses for this officer.


George William Fowler: How much was in arrears at the time of Captain Smith's death, and how many years do these arrears cover ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. About seven years. There are four new examiners appointed.


George William Fowler: Are there more captains and mates to be examined to-day, since the shipping has fallen off ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. The hon. gentleman is aware that all of these services, like all other business in the country, have increased, and we have to provide for that increase.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many examiners do you require ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Four more have been appointed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many have you now ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. I will give the list. It is as follows :
Names and Addresses ot Examiners of Masters and Mates.
Lieutenant Reginald Salmon, R.N.R., Chairman, salary $2,000, Ottawa. Ont.
Captain Bloomfield Douglas, R.N.R., Halifax, N.S.
Mi'. A. E. H. Gilpin, assistant to Captain Douglas. Halifax, N.S.	[DOT]
Captain David Hunter, Halifax, N.S.	.


Captain A.   J.@: Wolff, Lunenburg. N.S.


Captain John E.: Murphy, Yarmouth. N.S.


Com.   P.H.@: Morgan, R.N., Sydney, N.S.


Mr.  W. C.@: Seaton, Quebec, Que.


Captain M.   P.@: McElhinney. Ottawa, Ont.


Captain R.  C. W.@: MacCuaig, Ottawa, Ont.


Mr.  W. L.@: Magee, Ottawa, Ont.
Captain Thos. Donnelly, Kingston, Ont.
Captain Wm. Mcllwain, St. Catharines, Ont.


Mr.   G@: Phillips, Rat Portage


Captain E.   B.@: Tingling, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Captain James Gaudin, Victoria, B.C.


Captain L.   H.@: Fraser, Nelson, B.C.


Captain H.   A.@: Mellon, Vancouver, B.C.
Captain Alex. Cameron, Charlottetown, N.B.
And all collectors of customs are authorized to examine candidates for freight boats under 100 tons or for tug boat certificates.
All examiners are allowed $4 for each candidate examined, and $1 for renewals, with the following exceptions :-
The chairman of the board who is paid a salary, does not receive any fee.
Mr. Gilpin does not receive any fee ; he is paid a salary.
Captain McElhinney, no remuneration.


Mr.  W. L.@: Magee, no remuneration.
G. P. Phillips, no remuneration.


Captain J.: Gaudin, $300 per annum.
Collectors of customs, no remuneration.
During the fiscal year ending 30th June, 1902,
12 masters and 28 mates of foreign sea-going vessels, received certificates, and 275 masters and 110 mates received certificates for coasting and inland vessels. Thirty-one renewed certificates were issued.


George William Fowler: Where are the additional men under salary stationed ? Those who are paid by fees are no charge upon the public treasury, and I would ask what additional salaries have to be paid ? The minister has read us a list of items which do not at all refer to the question at issue.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I am informed by the officers of the department that four examiners have been appointed in order to render the service more efficient.


George William Fowler: Why is it necessary to appoint these additional officers by salary ? Why not continue the present system of having them paid by fees ? The fee does not involve any expense upon Canada, and it would seem to be the preferable system.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The additional examiners will have to travel, and I do not know whether they will be willing to be paid by fee or will desire to have the salary.


George William Fowler: Where do they travel ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. To the different places where they hold examinations.


George William Fowler: Why not appoint examiners at these different points ? Why send the government examiner around to the candidate to examine him 1
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	ANDFISHERIES. The	hon.	gentleman	will
understand that if you are to have an examiner in every place it would be necessary to appoint 100 more.


George William Fowler: You have these examining officers only at the great seaports, and they are residents of these cities. It is not necessary for them to travel, that I can see ; let the candidate travel to them. Why should the country pay ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. We are trying to do the best that is possible in the interests of the people, and we are trying to lessen the cost. We should afford to those who desire to take the examination every facility for doing so. Last summer, for instance, many complaints came to me that the examiners were not able to go from place to place in time to hold these examinations, and the vessels

were delayed by the certificates not being given promptly. Under these circumstances I thought it was better to increase the number of examiners and to provide for the examinations in order to give better satisfaction to those who were engaged in navigation.


George William Fowler: Why should a vessel be delayed because certificates are not given to masters or mates who were up for examination ? The minister apparently does not understand the question.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The hon. gentleman does not understand the question ; if the vessels are not provided with captains and mates duly certificated the vessels cannot go to sea.


George William Fowler: I do not think there is any particular dearth of captains or mates throughout the country. I do not see why the country should pay the cost of sending around to all the different inland ports or the different maritime ports if you will, to examine these candidates who wish to become captains or mates. Why should the candidate not pay any reasonable expense in connection with the examination ? It seems to me that the system of fees is the proper system, and you are making a very wrong departure if you depart from that and establish the system of payment by the country and of sending the examiners around to any port where there might be the captain of a fishing schooner who wanted a certificate. By doing this you are converting the whole thing into a screaming farce. The minister has not given us any explanation whatever of why this additional charge on the public treasury is to be made. The explanation he has given is worse than none at all, and it looks as if he did not know much about the matter. I think that he should move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again in order that he may acquaint himself with the facts.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: That is very clever.


George William Fowler: The minister says that is very clever, and says it sarcastically. I think the exhibition the minister has made of his lack of knowledge in respect to this matter should convince the members of the committee that we should not be called upon to vote an additional $2,000 in order to make these examining boards a sort of travelling show that will go around like a pedlar's cart to every candidate who wishes to be made a captain or mate. The thing is so absurd that the minister should take my suggestion in good part as being kindly meant -for it was kindly meant. There are only two examining boards that I know of in the maritime provinces, one in St. John, N.B.. and the other in Halifax.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The hon. gentleman does not seem to have listened to what I have said. I have given the names and addresses of the examiners.


Mr. KENDALL.: There has been one at Sydney for years.


Albert James Smith Copp: They have one in Yarmouth and always had one.


George William Fowler: Have they not one in Digby ? There should be one to examine the new wharf which the hon. gentleman is to get a $5,000 grant for.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Holmes).: Order. Mr. FOWLER. What is the matter ?
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Holmes.) You have no right to make an insinuation about an hon. member.


Albert James Smith Copp: I beg your pardon, I said nothing of the kind. The hon. gentleman said there were only two in the maritime provinces, and I thought he had forgotten thei others.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I rise to a point of order. I have no right to be spoken to in that way by the chairman. I made no remark whatever.


Robert Holmes: I made no reference to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood you said I called his attention to it.


Robert Holmes: I did not refer to you at all.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Edward Cochrane: No it isn't. A candidate for the civil service has to go io the place where the examinations are held and why have the examiners to go from place to place after these captains who want to be examined. I never heard of such a thing in my life as to pay men to run about the country to meet captains who want to pass an examination. We all know that these officials of the government, when they are travelling around the country, want ail the luxuries of life ; probably those examiners will want down quilts, and things like that. But if they were travelling at their own expense they would not be so extravagant.


George Taylor: It is the duty of the minister to give a detailed explanation of what he) wants the vote for. We want a detailed explanation of this.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I stated that last year the vote was for $5,000 and we require $2,000 more this year, because we intend to have four more examiners. Capt Salmon will be obliged to go to the different ports and organize for these examinations to see that

they are carried out properly. You must pay his travelling expenses and you must pay the four examiners who will be required. Capt. Salmon was obliged to go to British Columbia to look after the service there. We have had a great deal of difficulty in finding a man qualified as Capt. Salmon is to take the position at $2,000. It was only after a good deal of inquiry In Canada and England that we succeeded in getting Capt. Salmon. He had been employed in Canada on the surveys by the British government, and he became attached to Canada, and accepted the position. We will have to pay his salary and travelling expenses, and also the travelling expenses of the four extra examiners.


George Taylor: The minister has as yet given no detailed explanation. He says lie will spend this money in sending men trotting around the country.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I never said anything of the sort, and the hon. gentleman has no right to put words in my mouth that I did not use. I did not say that I would send the examiners trotting around the country, but I said that the chairman of the board would have to travel, and that some of the examiners would be obliged to travel, and we must pay their expenses.


George Taylor: Then the minister should tell us how much he will spend on these travelling expenses.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: How can I tell this in advance. How can I tell whether Capt. Salmon will have to make two or three trips to British Columbia ?


George Taylor: The minister should have a detailed estimate from his officials of what he is going to do with this money. He is asking for a blind vote of $2,000, but he will not get his estimates through unless he tells us in detail what he is going to spend this money for.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: At what points in the maritime provinces are there standing boards where masters and mates can take their certificates ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Halifax, Lunenburg, Yarmouth and Sydney, N.S.; St. John, N.B., and Charlottetown, P.E.I., and Quebec.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: At what points will those four new examiners be stationed ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Capt. Salmon has recommended that we should provide for four additional examiners.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: It is extraordinary to submit a vote without any more definite information than that four new examiners are required and that the man who recommends them does not know where they are to be stationed. Are they required in the maritime provinces ? If there are four examiners in Nova Scotia, one in New Brunswick, one in Prince. Edward Island, within a distance of a few hundred miles of each other, I cannot understand why we need more examiners down there. Are these to be travelling examiners ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: There are no travelling examiners. Only the chairman of the board travels around and sees that the various boards are properly organized and the examinations properly held. He has ascertained that there will be required in the course of the year four more examiners to be placed at Victoria, B.C., St. John, N.B., Halifax, Charlottetown, and he has asked me to provide for their remuneration and their travelling expenses as well as his own. His own travelling expenses will be considerable.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: What is Mr. Salmon's salary 'l


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: 


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Is he a recent appointment V
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. He was appointed in February or March.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Who held the position before him V
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Captain Bloomfield Douglas was doing the work in the meantime.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Then the hon. minister cannot state how this $1,000 will be expended.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. I said it would cover extra travelling expenses not only of the four men, but other necessary expenses. As I have pointed out, in three or four instances last season there were complaints of very serious delays, owing to the examiners not being able to hold the examinations in time. The hon. gentleman must know that I have no interest whatever except in getting the best service possible. I do not know anything about it personally. I have to take the recommendation of the head officer, who is supposed to know all the details, and if it is reasonable, I submit it to the House.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I am only asking for information, because I have had something to do with the shipping business for a number of years, and I cannot understand why there should be any delay to the shipping interests of the maritime provinces to necessitate four additional examiners being appointed. The candidates go up for examination at either St. John or Halifax, and their examination is simply a matter of a

day or two. Yet it appears from the hon. minister's language that these men have to travel around'to meet the exigencies of any particular person who wants to take an examination as master or mate. I would like to know if it is customary to bring down estimates with the small amount of information which we have regarding this item ?


George Taylor: Is there any use of having members of parliament here to vote money ? The hon. gentleman says that Mr. Salmon states that two examiners will be required; but he refuses to state where these gentlemen are to be placed.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: One is going to be at Charlottetown-Mr. Alexander Cameron.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman wishes us to vote this money without knowing where these gentlemen are to be placed. The House should know as well or better than Mr. Salmon whether two more examiners are required or not. The hon. gentleman volunteers a little information, saying that one of them is going to be at Charlottetown. It is probably for the representatives of Prince Edward Island to say whether he is required there or not. I understood the hon. minister to say a few moments ago that there was a board for Prince Edward Island. Where is the other to be, and what is the salary of each V
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. I have already mentioned the locations.


George Taylor: The House ought to know before	we vote the	salary.The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. It is not salary. There may be a little remuneration paid to them, but the most important item is the travelling expenses.


Richard Blain: Is this a new system ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. No. What is new about it is improvement. Formerly the president of the board did not follow up the business as closely as Mr. Salmon is doing at present; and of course it stands to reason that if he wants the work to be done properly, and he has to visit the different places, he will incur more expenses than formerly. I do not want the certificates to be delayed, and whatever travelling expenses may be deemed necessary will be taken out of this sum of $2,000.


Richard Blain: How many examiners are there at present ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: There are nineteen, with the new one appointed at Charlottetown.


Richard Blain: In the discussion of this item last year the hon. minister gave the names of the examiners, and I think there


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: were not more than seven or eight. When were these new ones appointed V


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Some of them are officers of the department, and they have no salary as examiners.


Mr. KAULBACH.: How many boards of examiners are there in the province of Nova Scotia ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: There are four places in Nova Scotia where examinations are held. There are three officers in Halifax, one in Lunenburg, one in Yarmouth, and one in Sydney.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Was the additional appointment at Charlottetown made on the recommendation of Mr. Salmon ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Yes.
Mr.	LEFURGEY.	Is	it because	more
business is being done there by the shipping interests ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Yes.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: It is a strange thing if more help is required by the examining board at Charlottetown than was required twenty years ago, when there was three or four times the amount of shipping that there is at the present time.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. If the hon. gentleman is not satisfied that we should have this examiner at Charlottetown, we will cancel the appointment. That is very easily done. The appointment was made on the recommendation of Mr. Salmon, to accommodate the shipping interest of Prince Edward Island. They used to go to Halifax before and If the hon. gentleman wants the old system restored, I shall do it with pleasure.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The hon. minister may think that that is good political talk, but it will not go down to the people of the Island. We are here to ask for information, and I want to know why he is appointing an examining officer there ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: To accommodate the people of Prince Edward Island, who are always ready to claim their rights. I wish to save their travelling from Charlottetown to Halifax in order to get an examiner. We have appointed one at Charlottetown.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: I understood that there had been one there right along.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: No, this is a new appointment.
IMr. LEFURGEY. When I asked the hon. minister to give me the examiners in the maritime provinces, he said there was one at St. John and one at Charlottetown.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I read the names of those I have in this return, and I read the name of Mr. Cameron, at Charlottetown, because he has been appointed.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: At the same time he said that he did not know that there were new appointments at the time, and I therefore understood it was an old appointment.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I said I did not know either of the four. I read the name of Cameron as one of the examiners, and he has been appointed. I gave the information as I got it from my deputy.


George William Fowler: When the Minister of Public .Works comes down with his estimates lie has the information all before him, and can give it, and it seems to me that the lion. Minister of Marine and Fisheries has been long enough in the department to explain his expenditure. The shipping owned in Canada has declined within the last twenty years notwithstanding the boast of the hon. gentleman a few minutes ago. There is not as much tonnage owned in Canada as there was twenty years ago, yet we are to have a great many additional *examiners to examine candidates for masters and mates. Why should this be necessary V These lion, gentlemen seem to be so anxious to spend the public money that they are looking all around for opportunities to do it. Where will these examiners have to travel to hold examinations ? Will any examiner go beyond the county where lie lives ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: That will depend entirely on circumstances.


George William Fowler: By what section of the law, of what regulations of the department is an examiner bound to travel at the request of some candidate for a master's certificate ? There is no examination point at Digliy. Suppose some one at Digby wants to be examined for a certificate as a master, will lie write to the examining officer at Sydney to go down and be examined V Under what circumstances are those examining officers at the different points obliged to stop ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I cannot say under what section. Their travelling expenses may be very trivial.


George William Fowler: Why should they amount to anything ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Most of this travelling will be done by Mr. Salmon himself.


George William Fowler: Does the hon. minister I say that $1,000 of this $2,000 is for Mi'. |
Salmon's travelling expenses ? What do you do with the other thousand dollars ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I said that the $2,000 provides partly for the salary of Mr. Salmon and partly for travelling expenses, and there might be some travelling expenses for the other.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman now says that Mr. Salmon's salary is $2,000, $200 in excess of his former salary. Now he says that his travelling expenses will be $1,000.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Perhaps more.


George William Fowler: That will be a very large amount, $3 a day for the whole 305 days. Surely he would not travel twelve mouths in the year. The hon. minister has now $S00 to account for, how is he going to account for that ? It cannot be for the salaries of the examiners, because they are paid by fees. He has appointed Mr. Cameron resident examiner in Charlottetown, and there is another one to be appointed on the recommendation of Mr. Salmon. Why is it necessary that this second man should be appointed ? This man does not get a salary and the hon. minister cannot say why one of these examining officers should travel from one point of the country to the other at the expense of the country. These men who are candidates for certificates as masters and mates are obliged to go to these examining stations and the government has been very generous in establishing so many excellent stations. The government has done more than its duty by these men. A man who' reaches such a position is per-feetlv able to travel, besides these candidates can sail in the vessels in which they are engaged to these various points where the examiners are to be found, and pass his examination when he reaches any one of these points. Therefore it is absolutely unnecessary that any travelling expenses should be charged up by these examining officers, and the committee would be" derelict in its duty if it passed this vote of $8,000 which the hon. minister is absolutely unable to account for.


Edward Hackett: Is Mr. Salmon a resident of Charlottetown ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Yes.


Edward Hackett: He is a very good man. What is lie to be given as compensation for his services ?	.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: It is not yet decided what the salary is to be.


Edward Hackett: The hon. minister could not appoint a better man.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I am very anxious indeed to see our mercantile marine a sue-

cess, and I think the Minister of Marine has the same object in view as myself. In order to accomplish what we both desire, it is necessary that our young men who desire to follow the sea for a livelihood should be given every opportunity to prepare themselves for their calling by a suitable education. It would be therefore, advisable to open marine schools in some of the most important ports in the maritime provinces. And I would ask for one in my own town, which represents an amount of shipping beyond that of any other county. There are more vessels belonging to Lunenburg, I believe, than to all the other counties combined. I would suggest that a school be opened in that place in order that we should be able to advance our young men as far as possible in preparation for their work in connection with navigation. I am sure that the effect will be to advance the interests of the whole country.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: There is another item in the supplementary estimates providing for the special study of schools of navigation. At present I am only following what has been done by my predecessors and voting enough money to maintain existing services. But I intend, under the advice of Captain Salmon, who is a very efficient officer, to have this matter gone into thoroughly and have efficient schools of navigation established at the proper ports. The matter will be brought before the parliament next session.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The hon. minister will not forget, then, the county I represent, the centre of a very large class who are deserving of a great deal of attention in this respect.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Kaulbach) will see that Lunenburg is not neglected. There is an officer there already.
'Mr. KATJLBACH. I am aware of that, but we are deserving of a little more.


George William Fowler: I think the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Kaulbach) is somewhat sarcastic when lie speaks of establishing a marine school in Lunenburg. There is already a school in. St. John, and one school, it shakes me, is enough for the maritime provinces. The bon. gentleman (Mr. Kaul-bac-h) is poking fun at the minister and the examining stations and suggesting schools. There are examining points. I understand, in other places than the maritime provinces. At what points in Ontario does the hon. minister intend to have officers ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: In Ontario there is Captain Donnelly, at Kingston, who is one of the examiners, and, one at St. Catharines, and of course, those at Ottawa.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The hon. member for King's (Mr. Fowler) makes reference to Luri-


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: enburg. I want him to understand that Lunenburg is a centre. It is half way between Cape Sable and Cape North, and immediately on the coast, where most of the sailors concentrate.' I think the appeal I have made should be favourably considered.


Mr. BOYD.: Is the hon. minister establishing examining boards on the Lake of the Woods ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. There is an officer at Rat Portage and one at Winnipeg.


Nathaniel Boyd: Who are they ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Air. Phillips at Rat Portage and Capt. Tingling at Winnipeg.


George William Fowler: Are these officers paid by salary or by fees ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	ANDFISHERIES. The	two I	have just named
are paid by fee, but not all are so paid.


George William Fowler: How is Captain Cameron, who was appointed at Charlottetown, paid ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. By fees ; only foreign going deep sea examiners are paid salaries.


George William Fowler: AVhat is his salary ?
The	A1INISTER	OF	AIARINE	AND
FISHERIES. No salary. He is not paid a fixed salary.


George William Fowler: And is the officer at Sydney paid by fees ?
The	AIINISTER	OF	AIARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Yes.


George William Fowler: And at Halifax ?
The	AIINISTER	OF	AIARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Captain Douglas, who is the officer there, is paid by salary, $300 I think.
Air. FOWLER, Is the officer at St. John paid by salary ? I think Air. Stammers was the officer there, but he has since died.


The AIINISTER OF AIARINE AND FISHERIES.: Captain Cole has been appointed at St. John.


George William Fowler: How long is it since the officer at St. John died ?
The AIINISTER OF AIARINE AND FISHERIES!. Captain Murphy of Yaip mouth, used to hold the examinations at St. John.


George William Fowler: No officer at St. John ? No officer at the leading port of the maritime provinces and the great winter port of Canada. And you are appointing officers at Charlottetown, Lunenburg, Yarmouth, Halifax, and these other small towns ? I am surprised. Why, the hon. minister must know that it is the natural point for many 'f these people to go for their examination. As the hon. member for Digby (Air. Copp)

knows, St. John is tlie natural centre of Bay of Fundy ports ; it is the place where the vessels go with their loads and for their loads. The hon. minister could appoint an officer there and pay him by fee, and he would make enough to remunerate him.


Albert James Smith Copp: I was going to ask about St. John. I do not see why there should not be an officer there. I desire to say also that I think the observations of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Kaulbach) deserve consideration. There should be schools in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, where the candidates can be prepared for these examinations. I was under the impression that there was a school in St. John and one in Yarmouth.


George William Fowler: There used to be one in St. John, presided over by a gentleman named Stammers. But I think he has since died, and I do not know whether the school was kept up or not. It is a very proper thing that there should be a marine school.
I would be willing to support any grant for that purpose. But, of course, it should be at St. John. That is the only point for a schcol.


Richard Blain: What revenue is there from this department ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Last year it was $5,292.


Richard Blain: Are the charges upon the country greater than that amount ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	ANDFISHERIES. Last	year	they were	about
the same.


Edward Cochrane: Is there any examiner between Kingston and St. Catharines ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Though there is no examiner in Toronto, an officer goes to that city when an examination is to be held there.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What constitutes a board, one examiner or a number ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: It dejiends upon the circumstances. Sometimes it is only one, sometimes two or three.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I take it that if you have examinations where you have officers, travelling expenses will be saved.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: As I have said, the travelling expenses of the examiners, other than Mr. Salmon, are very small. An examiner goes from Kingston to Toronto and his expenses have to be paid ; in the same way with an examiner going from Ottawa to Toronto to hold an examination. They may be two or three holding examinations at the same time for masters and mates. Mr. Salmon is nearly all the time on the road, either as an examiner, or as controller of the 424
other examiners, or as holding investigations into casualties.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are we to understand that Mr. Salmon has to go round'and organize a board where it only consists of one person ? What kind of an organization does he require to make where there is only one examiner ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: He has to visit most of the stations where these examiners are placed in order to instruct them how to perform their duties.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That would be quite proper. I understood the minister to say there was one at Kingston, one at St. Catharines and one at Rat Portage. Are these the only three in the province of Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: They are supplemented by our own officers here in Ottawa, where we have Capt. McElhinney, Capt. McCuaig and Capt. Magee.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Should there not be one at Sault Ste. Marie, or Port Arthur, or Owen Sound, somewhere on the upper lakes, where there is a great deal of shipping ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I have taken the service just as I found.it when I came into office. There was no head to it, no officer in charge, and I appointed Capt. Salmon as the head. Capt. Salmon, after entering upon the office, investigated the whole system io see if any improvements could be made, and he recommended the improvements which we are now trying to carry out by appointing four more examiners this year. Probably it will be necessary to change or to increase the number of places where examinations may be held.


George William Fowler: The minister is making a reflection upon the gentleman who preceded him in the office. He says he found the service all out of shape, disorganized.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The hon. gentleman is distorting the words I used. I did not say the department was disorganized, I said there was no head to this particular service, because there was no officer holding the position which I found it necessary to fill by Mr. Salmon. I did not reflect upon my predecessors at all.


George William Fowler: Perhaps, the hon. gentleman did not Intend to make a reflection, but his words could be easily construed as having that meaning. I am glad to know that the hon. gentleman did not intend to cast any reflection upon his predecessor. Still, I must say, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. gentleman has not shown us any reason why an official appointed at Charlottetown should be given a salary. He does not ex-



pect a salary, because be accepted the appoint meut with the understanding that he should only receive the fees. If a man in Sydney has only the fees which he earns, why should the man in Charlottetown be placed on a different footing ? He does not perform any work. If he performs work, pay him for'it ; if he does not, why should he receive any salary ? As a matter of fact, it seems to me that instead of increasing the examinations there might very well be less, by concentrating them in a few places. You have two examiners in some places and in other places only one. Now, is a certificate granted by one examiner just as good as a certificate granted by three ? There should be some system. I really think this whole department requires a very severe shaking up. There is no reason why at Sydney, for instance, a man should go before one examiner and be granted a certificate, whereas at another place he requires to go before three examiners to get a certificate. The thing is absurd on the face of it. Instead of having examiners at a number of little places like Sydney, you should have a board of examiners at the great ports of the country.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Oh, you had better go and make butter and cheese and not talk about shipping.


George William Fowler: I know more'about shipping than the hon. member does, although he does come from a little place where they dig coal. So far as butter and cheese are concerned, I understood the hon. gentleman was a connoisseur, an adept in that line; he looks as if he bad been milk-fed. I say that if the hon. minister wished to do his duty he would change this whole system and establish some principle with respect to the examination of masters and mates ; he would establish at the ports like St. John, Halifax and Montreal, where all these vessels come at some time or other, boards of examiners of three men each, and then let these candidates come before these boards and pass a thorough examination, for nothing is more important than that these men should have a complete and thorough training. Then, he should establish schools. He should re-establish a school at St. John and should establish schools at these other points, and in that way something would really be done to benefit the sailor and the mercantile marine of this country.


Richard Blain: Is there a uniform qualification for these masters and mates ? How long has a man to be in the service before he can obtain a certificate to l5ecome the master of a vessel ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: These regulations are published in the report of the department, but I will lay them on the Table of the House.


George William Fowler: 


Richard Blain: I will not press that question further. Might I ask the hon. minister if it is possible for a person to get a certificate as master without first having served as mate ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: No.


Albert James Smith Copp: I think he has to serve before the mast for five years as what is called an able seaman, and then serve two years as mate.


Richard Blain: Is it a uniform qualification throughout Canada ?


George Taylor: The hon. minister has told us that Mr. Salmon has double duties to perform, first to inspect the boards of examiners, and second, to investigate wrecks. There is another item of $2,000 for that purpose. Then lie says that the cost of Mr. Salmon's travelling expenses will amount to about $1,000. Is he taking the whole of that $1,000 out of this $2,000, or is most of it for travelling in connection with the service of investigating wrecks ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: It is perfectly independent of whatever may be expended on the other item.


George Taylor: It is perfectly independent. He has double duties to perform, will the general travelling expenses be charged against this item, or only a portion of them ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: The travelling expenses for this service will be charged against this vote.


George Taylor: Will his travelling expenses in this connection be $1,000 independent of the other ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I cannot say.


George Taylor: What estimate have your officers made of it ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. This is the estimate of the officers and of Mr. Salmon.


George Taylor: Then, the salary is $2,000; will the hon. minister tell us what he is going to do with the other $800.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. There is no $800.


George Taylor: In the estimate last year there was $1,800, including the services of the officer who was to do this work.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. That went back into the treasury because there was no officer to be paid.


George Taylor: The estimate was there ; we voted the money, and if it went back

to the treasury it "was not spent. It is only increased by $200 this year. There is $1,000 for travelling expenses which is Mr. Salmon's estimate. Now, that is $1,200, and what is to be done with the other $800? Surely the hon. minister knows that no other minister asks in this way for a sum of money without stating exactly how he intends to disburse it. We want the details of every expenditure, and the Minister of Finance will at onee acknowledge that it is the duty of the opposition to ascertain these particulars and of the government to furnish them to the House. The minister cannot expect us to vote money blindly to his or any other department. We ought to know the minister's explanation and his statements should be on record; then if he exceeds the appropriation made for that service he would come down for a supplementary estimate next year and the House would vote it, but the House should be put in possession of all the facts when the money is first asked for.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish to make some further inquiry about British Columbia and Quebec, which were not spoken of by the minister. He did not tell us what stations there are in Quebec or British Columbia.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: For British Columbia we have provided for an extra expenditure of $300, which is not to be taken out of the $2,000 for Captain Gaudet, who performs these services. He is an old officer of the department. The officer in charge at Quebec city is Mr. Seaton.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then you have no officer at Montreal ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: No, there is none in Montreal, but this whole matter is being studied; at the present time in order to arrive at a complete reorganization of this department and to decide where it would be most advantageous to hold these examinations.


George William Fowler: As a matter of fact, then, you have an examining board at Rat Portage and not at Montreal ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. I did not say that.


George William Fowler: Is that not the fact ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. What do you mean by a fact ? You need not point your finger at me in that way.


George William Fowler: The minister need not get excited. I was not pointing my finger at you.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. You are excited.


George William Fowler: The minister is very sensitive, be should not get so excited. I asked 424i
if there is an examining board at Rat Portage and none at Montreal ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I never said anything of the sort, I said there was an officer at Rat Portage; I never said it was an examining point.


George William Fowler: What kind of an officer?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: An examining officer.


George William Fowler: If Rat Portage is not an examining point, where is the examining done ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. The officer examines at Rat Portage or elsewhere.


George William Fowler: Then he does examine, as a matter of fact) at Rat Portage ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Suppose he does ?


George William Fowler: Does that officer come from Rat Portage, or any other point, to Montreal ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. The hon. gentleman is not serious.


George William Fowler: I am.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. No member of the committee thinks he is serious, when he asks if I would bring an officer from Rat Portage to Montreal. It is absurd; it is ridiculous.


George William Fowler: I said from Rat Portage or any other point.
The	MINISTER	OF	. MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. There are oflicers at Ottawa and Quebec.


George William Fowler: Do they hold examinations at Montreal ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Certainly, when necessary.


George William Fowler: Would it not be more necessary to have an examiner at Montreal than at Rat Portage ; Montreal being the greatest port in Canada ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Oh, no.


George William Fowler: Do I understand the Minister of Justice to say that Montreal is not the greatest port in Canada ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Nearly, but not quite.


George William Fowler: I can understand why the Minister of Justice should stand up for Quebec as I do for St. John. I was speaking in all kindness to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, but he seemed to get enraged, and if he chooses to do so he has a perfect right. I say that the whole system is rotten. I say that these examinations should

be held by a board and not by a single person ; I say that the examiners should be stationed at the great ports in Canada. I say the present system is ridiculous aud whether it has existed from confederation or not, if it is a bad system it should be abolished.
Mr. TAYLOR-. Will the minister bring down a detailed statement, so that we may have it on ' Hansard,' of how much of this $2,000 is for travelling expenses, how much for salary, and how much for other things. If he promises to do that we will let the item pass.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I have no objection whatever to give full details of the proposed expenditure.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I want to say one or two words regarding this vote-that unseemly noise and slamming of desks will not facilitate the passage of these items, aud that may as well be understood early ns late. We are here to do our duty according to our judgment, and we do not wish to delay, but such votes as this must be accompanied by detailed information. The minister is comparatively new in his department, and he may not know the details, but the opposition will not discharge its duty in passing these votes unless we have the information at some time.
Marine biological station, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: In 1898 a vote was taken for this purpose, and as the terms of the Order in Council expired in May of this year, the amount for maintenance was not placed in the main estimates. It wTas found that the $2,000 for maintenance was not sufficient, and university professors and others called on me and asked that it should be increased.
Further amount required for cattle inspection, $300.


George Taylor: Where is this required V


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: A large number of cattle have recently been shipped from St. John, N.B., and as the inspector there had only a salary of $500, and the officers at other ports had from $1,000 to $1,200, we thought that $500 was not sufficient for him.


George William Fowler: Who is the officer at St. John ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Mr. Buckley.
Further amount required for awards for saving of life ; for life-saving stations, and for wages of crews and drill, clothing, $2,000.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	ANDFISHERIES. The department has twenty-nine life-saving stations ;	fourteen	in Ontario ;	thirteen in	Nova	Scotia ;	one at


George William Fowler: Grand Manan and one at Cape Torrnen-tine. The men are required to sign articles to attend to drill or active service whenever called upon by the coxswain. They are supposed to put in fourteen drills during the season. It is important to secure the services of good boatmen. It is proposed to increase the drill allowance of the men from $1.50 to $2. They are doing very good work, and it has been represented that $1.50 is not sufficient.


George William Fowler: Does the coxswain drill the crew ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Yes.


George William Fowler: Will it take all the $2,000 to give that increase ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there anything for this life-saving station on the Gulf of St. Lawrence, with reference to which the Prime Minister told us to-day the government would make a harbour of refuge, and where a life-saving station was needed ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: Not yet.


Richard Blain: Would the minister give us the names of the life saving stations in Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: On the great Lakes, Cobourg, Collingwood, Goderich, Pelee Island, Poplar-Point, Port Hope, Port Colborne, Port Rowan, Port Stanley, Toronto, Wellington, Consecon, Long Point (Lake Erie) Kincardine.


Richard Blain: I wish to draw the minister's attention to a very important place on Lake Ontario, in the county which I have the honour to represent-Port Credit. There is a volunteer crew there at the present time, which has been organized for several years. It has rescued several vessels that have been driven out on their way to the city of Toronto. I think it is a place which should be made a permanent station.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I will call the attention of my officers to it, and have a report made upon it.


Richard Blain: Will the minister do that soon ?	-


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: As soon ns possible.


Richard Blain: If the department make the examination and And what services have been rendered by this volunteer crew, I think they will feel it to be their duty to establish a service at that point.
Further amount required for investigation into wrecks, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: This is on the recommendation of Captain Salmon. This board is completely organized under him at the present time. Of course, it does not entail as much work as the organization of the examiners. But it was found that the amount of $2,000 was not sufficient to hold the examination asked for by the insurance companies and the British Board of Trade. We have adopted the rule in the department of holding an investigation into every casualty to ascertain who is responsible, whether it is the channel, the men in charge of the boats, or the boats. The results of all these investigations have been transmitted to the British Board of Trade.
Mr. FOWIjER. How many were there last year ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Fifteen. This year, I think, we have already held twelve.


George William Fowler: How much did you expend altogether last year ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. Last	year we had not enough
money. We spent $4,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If I understand it correctly, Mr. Salmon is practically a commissioner to make all these inquiries.
The	MINISTER	OF	MARINE	AND
FISHERIES. He is a commissioner of investigation under the law, and he has associated with him two expert assessors.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do the same men do the work all through ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: No. Two assessors are taken from each place where he holds an investigation.
For expenses of inquiry into the subject of a Naval Militia and School of Navigation, $7,500.


George William Fowler: Is this something new- a naval-militia ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: There was originally asked $5,000, and the amount has been increased by $2,500 in order to enable us to study the system of establishing this naval reserve, of which so much has been said. It may be necessary to send an officer to some other countries in order to see howr the same thing is organized in these countries. It may be necessary to send this officer to some other country to see how that is organized elsewhere. The school of navigation established last winter in Montreal gave very good satisfaction and I shall have a copy of the report made and put before the House. It is very interesting and shows that Captain Salmon knows the subject very well. These schools should be encouraged and the amount of $5,000 should not be considered too much. '	-


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: What is the number of the staff ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: In Montreal they had four professors and the school was attended by about fifty pupils. There were lectures given on thirty-two subjects.
Gratuity to Alfred Couillard second mate of steamer ' Druid ' for injuries while on duty, $600.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: This poor fellow lost an eye while on duty. He claimed $1,000, and consented to accept $600.


George William Fowler: I wish to commend the action of the hon. minister in granting this gratuity to this officer and I desire to take this opportunity to point out the different treatment accorded to officials on the Intercolonial when any accident occurs to them. Last year an accident took place near Belmont on the line of the Intercolonial. Several persons were killed in the accident and one brakesman severely injured. It was a miracle he was not killed. He had several ribs and a leg broken. He was laid up and unable to work some six or eight months. During that time all that he received was three dollars a week, which he got as a member of an insurance association. To show how differently he was treated from this man, let me point to this fact. His run was to Moncton, and as he was unable to get into Moncton on account of the wreck, he was only paid half a day for that day. That sort of treatment cannot be too severely condemned. It is not the treatment which would be accorded by any private firm or corporation to its employees. There is not a man in business who would use an employee in that way, when that employee was injured in his service, without any fault on the employee's part. This man was injured in the service of the Intercolonial, and they would not pay him his full day's wage on ihe day of his accident because he was unable to reach Moncton where his day's run ended. I am glad to sec that the Department of Marine and Fisheries treats its employees in a different manner. I would ask the hon. minister to look into this case- the case of Brakeman Crandall-who was injured in the Belmont disaster. He has a wife and large family, and all he got was $3 per week from an insurance company.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I have not had that particular case before me, but I promise to look into it. I would remind my hon. friend that this insurance fund to which he refers is supported to a considerable extent by the government and that fact may have been taken into consideration. However, I do not offer an opinion as to whether the compensation was adequate and will inquire into the matter.
Some resolutions reported.

ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE .	HOUSE.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved the adjournment of the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to suggest that if the hon. gentleman who is leading the House would consult with the right lion, the Prime Minister as to what items on the paper shall be dropped and what gone on with, we could estimate better how long we are likely to be kept here.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My right hon. friend the Prime Minister will make such a statement probably to-morrow, certainly not later than Monday. The Bill which the hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) has in charge, and which is being transferred to government Orders, with respect to the election law, will be taken up to-morrow. If that be disposed of, we will proceed with the estimates at the point where we left off to-night.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Satubday, October 10, 1903.