1903-07-10

Mr. SPEAKER.: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received the following letter :
Ottawa, July 9, 1903.
Sir,-I have the honour to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate Chamber on Friday the tenth instant at five o'clock p.m., for the purpose of giving assent to certain Bills which have passed the Senate and House of Commons during the present session.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. S. MAUDE, Major, Governor General's Secretary.



THE POST OFFICE SAYINGS BANK.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 220) respecting the Government Post Office Savings Bank. He said : This is the Bill of which I made mention , some time ago. It is composed of a single clause, and provides that there shall be a reserve of 10 per cent in gold or guaranteed debentures on the amount of the deposits in the government savings banks.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. THOMAS EARLE (Victoria, B.C.).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries if that correspondence has yet been brought down which was asked for some two months ago, and which has been promised to me on several occasions ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. Raymond Prefontaine).: I really thought it was on the Table of the House, because I signed the papers about six days ago. I will see about it.



SUPPLY-THE BARR COLONY.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S.	Fielding) moved that the House again go into Committee of Supply.
["I have the honour to inform the House that when the House did attend His Excellency the Governor General in the Seuate Chamber, His Excellency was pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the Royal Assent to the following Bills :\nAn Act to incorporate the Home Bank of Canada.\nAn Act respecting the Quebec Bridge Company. and to change its name to ' The Quebac Bridge and Railway Company.'\nAn Act respecting the Vancouver and Kootenay Railway Company.\nAn Act to confer on the Commissioner of Patents certain powers for the relief of James S. McDougall.\nAn Act respecting the London and Port Stanley Railway Company.\nAn Act respecting the Rocky Mountain Railway and Coal Company.\nAn Act to incorporate the New Canadian Company, Limited.\nAn Act to amend chapter 27 of the revised statutes, respecting the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.\nAn Act respecting and restricting Chinese Immigration.\nAn Act to -amend the Customs Act.\nAn Act to provide for further advances to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal.\nAn Act respecting certain aid for the extension of the Canadian Northern Railway.\nAn Act to incorporate the Lumberman's Fire Insurance Company.\nAn Act to aid in the settlement of Railway Labour Disputes.\nAn Act for granting to His Majesty the certain sums of money for the public service of the financial years ending respectively, 30th June, 1903. and the 30tli June, 1904."]
Mr. E. F. CLARKE (West Toronto).: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair, I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior to a statement which was made in the North-west Legislative Assembly some days ago by the Premier in respect to what are known as the Barr colonists. In view of the very large immigration which is taking place into this country, I think it is of the very highest importance that when serious statements are made respecting mismanagement and the non-fulfilment of pledges on the part of those who promote large immigration schemes, it is the duty of the government to make an exhaustive examination into them. Especially is this the case in the matter to which I desire to draw the attention of the hon. minister, because, if my information is correct, the statement which was made is a very serious one, and it was made by a gentleman who is well and favourably known throughout the country, a gentleman who has had a good deal of parliamentary experience, and who, I am sure, in making the statement, has kept well within the mark. The Barr colony is one of the first large bodies of English immigrants who have been induced to come and settle in the North-west Territories. That class of immigration is a most desirable class, and it would be a great misfortune indeed if, because of incorrect or untruthful statements or unfulfilled promises, the hopes of the immigraijts were not to be realized. It is a notorious fact that many statements have been made in Canadian, as well as in British, newspapers, by those who profess to be of the Barr colony, expressive of their dissatisfaction with the treatment which they have received. I think statements of that kind ought to be discounted to some extent ; but when a responsible gentleman like the Premier of the North-west Territories makes such a statement as 1 propose to present to the House, I think it is the bounden duty of the government to make an exhaustive examination into it, and to lay the facts before

tlie people as quickly as possible. I will not take up the time of the House, but X will merely read the statement which has been handed to me, and which is taken from the Regina 'Leader' of July 2nd. The matter was evidently being discussed in the territorial legislature, and this is the report of Mr. Haultain's remarks in closing the discussion :
Mr. Haultain closed the debate in a few words. Referring to Mr. Clinkskill's speech with reference to Mr. Barr, the premier said he did not wish to use his position in the House to make charges against Mr. Barr when the gentleman could not be present to reply. At the same time, he thought some remarks on the subject ought to be made, and had very properly been made. From conversation he had had with members of the colony on the trail between Saskatoon and Battleford, he was convinced there had been some gross mismanageemnt in connection with the colony, and something worse than gross mismanagement in certain financial dealings with it. The Dominion government by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships had to that extent recognized the scheme, and it was the duty of that government to have all the charges cleared up by a thorough investigation. He said this was in the interests of the territories, and in the interests of some of the best immigrants that ever came into the country.
If this is a correct report of the statement made by Mr. Haultain, I think there cannot be two opinions as to the advisability of having some person make an exhaustive examination into the charges alleged. I think it is due to Mr. Barr, who is at the head of the colony ; it is due to the government, who set aside certain townships for the use of the colonists ; and it is due to the country, because if the allegations which are made are not disposed of satisfactorily, they will prevent that tide of immigration coming from the old country which we all sincerely desire. I wish to ascertain from the hon. Minister of the Interior what has been done, or what he intends to do, to clear this matter up. He is aware, of course, of the statements which have been made in the papers in the old country by members of the Barr colony expressing their dissatisfaction with some of the arrangements made.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: Mr. Speaker, the statement which was made by Mr. Haultain in the North-w'est assembly, and to which my hon. friend has called attention, has not been brought to my attention before to-day. The relations between the department and Mr. Barr of the Barr colony, are extremely simple. Mr. Barr conceived a scheme of inducing a large number of people to settle in the North-west. He represented to the department that there would be difficulty in carrying out the scheme unless the department agreed that it would hold available for homestead entry by the persons whom he would select a certain amount of land for a certain number of Mr. CLARKE.
months. That has been done in some other cases for some other people, generally with results that were not unsatisfactory, although at present, owing to the largely increased influx of settlers, it is a practice which the department may not be able to follow in the future. There did not seem, however, to be any difficulty in making this arrangement with Mr. Barr, but the only arrangement which the department had with that gentleman was that it would hold a certain amount of land a certain length of time, for the purpose of granting applications for homestead entries within that tract to those whose names Mr. Barr would furnish, subject to the reservation that the applications should be on bebalf of bona fide persons desiring to settle. That arrangement was continued at the instance of the Deputy Minister of the Interior who was in England. The department saw difficulties in carrying the scheme into effect, but the House will understand that in matters relating to immigration, where you have to deal with human beings, who think they know best, and are not always willing to accept advice, we very often have to do what we ourselves would not have suggested in order to avoid losing a considerable amount of immigration. In this case we would have preferred that these settlers had come to our officers in London and put themselves in their hands. Had they done this, they would have been handled better and with less trouble and there would have been no dissatisfaction. They, however, would not do that. The Deputy Minister of the Interior was in London at the time, and after considerable correspondence by cable, he advised that it would be better in the long run to give way to their proposition, because if we had refused, we would, in all probability, have been advertised as discouraging settlement, and this would have had an injurious influence on intending emigrants. As I felt considerable doubt of the ability of Mr. Barr to handle these people, I gave Instructions to the officers of my department to make precisely the same preparations to handle tiiis colony as if Mr. Barr had nothing to do with it. The people who undertook to handle that colony were not sufficiently experienced, they did not know what had to be done in the North-west on the arrival of a large party of that kind, and I instructed the officers of my department to take the same steps as if these people were depending on the government officials solely to look after them. My officers did so, but of course they could not interfere until the colonists made up their minds to abandon Mr. Barr. Our officers stood aside until called in, and then they did whatever was necessary. I have not had before me any complaints whatever regarding the nature of the services granted by the officers of my department. On the contrary, I think it was generally admitted that they showed zeal

and efficiency, and under all the circumstances were very successful. Tents were planted at regular distances and every attempt made to prevent unnecessary suffering, but of course one could easily understand that, in the case of a large number of people coming from England, who had previously no experience of hardship of any kind, they would necessarily have to go through what they would 'consider hardships, hut what the average Canadian or what members of this House would endure cheerfully tuid not think twice about it. So far as financial relations are concerned, there were none between Mr. Barr and the department. Our arrangement simply consisted in the fact that we held a certain quantity Of land for a certain length of time at the disposal of these colonists. We have no knowledge whatever of any financial relations which did exist between them and Mr. Barr. They made their own arrangements with Mr. Barr, in London, England. Any of them who took the trouble to consult the officers of my department in London were told that there was no necessity to employ Mr. Barr or anybody else, but that they could make their applications directly without charge, except the ordinary government fee, so that the financial arrangements, if any, between the members of the colony and Mr. Barr were voluntary arrangements made in London, without the co-operation of the officers of the government of their knowledge as regards details. We know at present nothing whatever about Mr. Barr's financial arrangements except that it has transpired, in the course of correspondence, that he received a commission from the steamship companies. lion, members will, therefore, see that there is nothing before the department to justify any investigation at present. It is somewhat difficult to see how an investigation can he held into the financial arrangements made in London, England, by this colony with Mr. Barr, especially in the absence of Mr. Barr, who, I understand, is not now in the colony.


Edward Frederick Clarke: He is in Winnipeg.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It would be difficult, under the circumstances, to make a satisfactory investigation. I quite recognize what my hon. friend says that if there are distinct allegations of impropriety in connection with the financial relations between the members of the colony and Mr. Barr himself, it would be well that these should be cleared up as fully as possible, but whether the facts which can be brought before us will be sufficient to justify our going into an inquiry, I could not say at the moment. I will undertake to procure the debate, if it is reported, to which my hon. friend referred, and endeavour to find out upon what specific facts and allegations, any charges of impropriety are based, and then determine whether I can properly go on with an investigation
or not. Possibly I may have that information before my estimates are through.


Mr. H. LENNOX (South Simcoe).: This matter is one of more than ordinary importance because it involves very largely the question as to what kind of immigration we shall have in the future. It was announced that this settlement of Barr colonists was the most satisfactory scheme of immigration which we had up to that time, and that they were the best class of colonists who had ever come into Canada. I do not think that time has led us to change our opinion in that regard, but just in proportion as they were a superior class of immigrants, the attention of the public, both here and at home, was directed to this scheme. And it is all important that, whatever we may do, we shall make it clear to the people of Great Britain that the representations made to immigrants in Canada will be substantially carried out, that whatever prospects are held forth to people coming to settle in our great west will, in the main, be realized. Now, this matter, of course, might have taken the position of being quite unconnected with the government. But, as Mr. Haultain points out, it does appear that the government was to some extent connected with it. And it further appears, by the statement of the Minister of the Interior, that that was the fact. Mr. Haultain says that the Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships, to that extent recognized the scheme ; and so it was the duty of the government to have all the charges cleared up by a thorough investigation. I understood the Minister of the Interior to say- though I am sorry to say, I cannot at all times hear at this distance what is said- that probably he would determine upon an investigation. I understood him to say also that there were difficulties in the way of investigation. It will appear perfectly clear, I think, from this statement of the'minister, that, although the department did not get complete control of that colonization scheme, it was so far connected with it as that it must be held to a large extent responsible for the success of the scheme. And, whether they are held in the strict sense responsible, whether it would be fair for the people or the members of this House to hold that government strictly to account in this matter, I think the hon. minister in control of the department will recognize, as a matter of public interest, as a matter affecting the settlement of the west, that in the future it is essential that the government and the department should take such active measures as will make it clear that whenever immigrants come from any land, particularly when a superior class of immigrants come from Great Britain, if there is an error at all, it shall be an error on the side of pay-


Mr. A. C. BELL (Pictou).: I suppose that what is said by the Minister of the Interior that he has no precise knowledge of the relations between Mr. Barr and the colonists, and particularly of their financial arrangement, must be accepted as a very strong reason why there is not ground at this moment for an investigation. At the present time the matter of immigration is of such great importance, perhaps the most important matter we have engaging our attention, that it will excuse a certain amount of solicitude on the part of the members of this House in seeing that nothing whatever should be done to prejudice what is by far i the most desirable class of immigrants we

could hope to receive in this country. Of course, the House, perhaps, knows even less than the Minister of the Interior as to the financial arrangements made between Mr. Barr and the persons whom he induced to come to this country. But from statements I have seen in the press, I would infer that there must have been something unsatisfactory in the financial arrangements made by Mr. Barr with them ; for if I am not mistaken, I have seen it recently stated that Mr. Barr, in arriving at a settlement with these colonists at Saskatoon, or some point in that neighbourhood, had refunded to them, or to some of them, certain sums of money which he had no doubt received from them. Now if that be the case, there must have been some ground for dissatisfaction on the part of these immigrants, as apparently their reasoning prevailed so far with Mr. Barr, the promoter of this movement, that he found it expedient to refund certain moneys that he had received at their hands. That being the case, it seems to me the government, or the department over which the hon. gentleman presides, should at once make it their business to ascertain as quickly and as completely as possible if there was anything improper in the relations which existed between this gentleman and the immigrants whom he induced to come to this country. The great care that is being taken by the government, and in which they are supported, I think, by every one wishing well to Canada, and hoping to see the growth of Canada made as rapid as possible in the future, would show how exceedingly important it is that we should do nothing whatever to prejudice any one of British birth or nationality, who may be looking forward to leaving his home, against coming to Canada. Now the proportion which we are to-day receiving of British immigrants is very satisfactory, we are apparently gaining at a very rapid rate in the proportion in which our immigrants of British origin bear to immigrants who are at this time going into the United States, and, of course, the United States is our great rival for that class of immigration which we consider so very desirable.
There is one thing which apparently the British immigrant, when he goes abroad, is exceedingly prompt to take advantage of, and that is the columns of the British press. In the mother country we find that journals of the very highest class, the London 'Times' and other first-class journals, seem to look upon it as a duty to open their columns to anything whatever in the nature of a complaint that may be offered by any British subject who has recently gone abroad. It would seem to be quite characteristic of these British immigrants to resort very promptly to this means of ventilating any grievance, either real or imaginary, which they conceive to exist. The consequence is of course, that, having this habit of appealing to their fellow citizeus at home through the press, and through the most respectable journals of that country, one or two dissatisfied immigrants coming into Canada are capable of doing an enormous amount of harm in prejudicing the people of the British islands against Canada ; they are capable of doing an enormous amount to nullify the great and proper efforts being made by the Department of the Interior, for the government of Canada, to secure the confidence of the British people and to turn the feet of intending immigrants in this direction. I think we ought to pay the greatest possible attention to anything that may even unwarrantably excite suspicion or dissatisfaction in the minds of immigrants. The Minister of the Interior has very properly, to my mind, observed that difficulties or comparative hardships that may be looked upon by our own people as trifling matters of every day occurrence, might be regarded by people coming from the old country, and by a class which perhaps never had occasion to rough it, as great hardships. No doubt a short acquaintance with Canada and a short experience in our western country has already taught these people to look with comparative indifference upon circumstances and upon features of apparent hardship which perhaps to them at first seemed very disagreeable indeed. The main point is this, that while receiving their first and early impressions at a time when they have not acquired such experience as would enable them to judge carefully and to speak impartially, they are prompt to speak without waiting to acquire that experience or that maturity of judgment ; they become so dissatisfied that they are at once placed in a position in which they become capable of exciting a strong feeling of dissatisfaction and suspicion on the part of the great mass of people in the mother country who, we have reason to believe from time to time, are thinking about changing their homes and coming to this country.
Now it would seem to me that, with the very large and well organized machinery which the government has instituted in the mother country for the purpose of reaching the ears of intending immigrants, a machinery which covers to a large extent the whole of the British islands, there is no reason why any gentleman should be allowed to take a position in connection with immigrants to this country which Mr. Barr seems to have taken. I would imagine that the middle man, the organizer of such an expedition, is entirely unnecessary at this moment in handling the immigrants who are looking towards Canada. In fact it would appear from what has transpired in connection with the Barr colony that there is a great and real danger that the interference of such a person is misehievi-ous, and that the immigrants would be in

better bands if they continued to place their confidence in, and to receive their advice from, the officers of the department. For that reneon I think it would require great caution on the part of the government before they entered into any arrangement whatever with Mi\ Barr, or any other gentleman who undertook to do what lie seems to have done in this case, in the direction of assigning to him any portion of the homestead lands of our country, as in this case was done by setting apart certain townships. It would appear from the whole history of this expedition that whatever purpose might have been intended by setting apart these townships so as to keep the Barr colonists together, and to form an all British settlement, it was to a very serious extent at least defeated by the result of the experience of these colonists. If I am not mistaken, a very large portion of the party which set out for Canada under Mr. Barr's leadership, did not eventually settle down in that part of the Dominion which was assigned to them by the Department of the Interior. I understand that only a comparatively limited portion of the party finally took up the lands in the townships which had been allotted to them. If I am not mistaken, I think quite a considerable portion of them found themselves quite as well suited and made settlements at some points some hundreds of miles on this side of that portion of the Dominion which had been set apart for their use.
There is another point in connection with the Barr colonists that seems to be of very great importance and that is the fact that quite a considerable number of these immigrants, instead of proceeding to the lands which were set apart for them and homesteading there, adopted what I think is the much wiser course of going into the employment of farmers already settled in Canada whereby they would have the advantage of acquiring a knowledge of the ways of the country and of acquiring that experience without which no man in the west can hope to be a successful farmer. It seems to me that instead of locating lands in certain portions of the country upon which large bodies of immigrants might settle down in compact bodies of all British settlements it would he much more important and) more likely to conduce to the advantage both of the immigrants and of the country if the opposite course were followed and if an effort were made, instead of placing these men in compact settlements, to scatter them about as much as possible among older settlers who have acquired an experience of Canadian conditions and have learned how to make a success of farming in this country. That process of settlement which seems much more desirable than the one adopted by Mr. Barr is one which would entirely exclude gentlemen like Mr. Barr from this work of colonization. It would be a work which would be more Mr. BELL.
properly done through the Department of the Interior. That department, with all its machinery and with its officials in the mother country and in Canada, could deal with the immigrant individually when he came to this country and it could place him upon a farm where he would have the advantage of Canadian neighbours with a large acquaintance of Canadian conditions, and'better still, it might, if possible, induce him to accept employment with a farmer in this country as a hired man and thus enable him to acquire a knowledge of Canadian conditions which would practically guarantee success when the time came that he could take up his work as a farmer in Canada. The fact which I mentioned in my first remarks tfiat representations had been made that Mr. Barr has refunded certain sums of money to the members of his party would seem to show- that there ivas really something in the contract or arrangement made between Mr. Barr and the colonists which was faulty and it is unfortunate that this was accomplished by Mr. Barr in consequence of the standing and position he secured with the department, which so far endorsed his scheme as to set apart and put into the hands of this gentleman a large amount of Canadian territory for the exclusive use of his party. There cau be no doubt that a gentleman, when he went to a party of intending immigrants, would have a better chance of procuring their consent to his proposal if he went with the endorsa-tion of tiie Department of the Interior and of the Canadian government, and were in a position to say :	I have so far acquired
the endorsation of the Canadian government that they have seen fit to interfere with the ordinary course of their methods in settling the lands of Canada by assigning to me certain townships in tlie western portion of the country. It does seem to me to be of the last necessity that the government should never in any case at all set its seal upon arrangements of this character, which, as the lion. Minister of the Interior has very properly observed, are to the last degree unnecessary. There is no occasion for a gentleman like Mr. Barr, with his very limited knowledge of our country, to go into this transaction with the impression that he can better organize a party and better conduct it to homes in the west than the officials of the Dominion government. The facts of this case would seem to argue that the interference of persons of this character is to say the least of it mischievous and that the government, instead of encouraging anything of that kind, would rather be serving the interests of the country if it would discredit the efforts of gentlemen like Mr. Barr, and confine the work of immigration largely to the officials of the department to work with their sanction and consent and for whose actions the government would be held responsible to the people, to this House and to the immigrants themselves. The

whole circumstances would seem to apply the necessity that the government should as soon as possible acquire absolute knowledge of this transaction. There may be very little ground whatever for the statements that are being made, but the fact that they are being made and circulated in the mother country is an important fact, because it is interfering with the success of our immigration system, a system upon which the people of Canada are spending a large amount of money and a system to which they look with a great deal of confidence to fill up Canada with a British population. I do not think I need say anything more beyond this that these irregular immigration agents like Mr. Barr should be discouraged and that everything done with the consent of the department should be done by the officials of the department so that the control of the movement will be in the hands of the government and the government will be responsible for any miscarriage or bad result.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: 
The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Will my hon. friend send me the interview; I have not seen it.


Robert Laird Borden: I will give it to the hon. minister as soon as I have concluded. That statement purports to emanate from Mr. Preston and as published in the Westminster ' Gazette ' it seems to Indicate that Mr. Barr in the first place made all his arrangements with the Canadian government and then went over to start liis propaganda for the purpose of Inducing this immigration movement; And, that Mr. Barr from the first was practically indicated by the Canadian government as a special immigration agent for the purpose of bringing these people to western Canada. I do not know whether that is a fact or not-of course I do not know if Mr. Preston made use of these words, but that is the statement of the case as presented to the representative of the Westminster ' Gazette ' if the words of that representative are to be believed; and that is the statement that appears in the Canadian ' Gazette ' of the 28th of May. I would have thought that under these circumstances it would have been the duty of the government to make the fullest possible enquiry into the character, capacity, and ability of Mr. Barr before lending himself to a movement of that kind and before allowing him to superintend such a large immigration as that of 2,000 people from the British Isles. I do not know whether or not the Minister of the Interior or his officers made any such investigation or inquiry, and I do not want to do Mr. Barr any Injustice because he is not here to answer for himself; 'but we know that there have been reports repeatedly circulated through the press of this country which would seem to indicate that the government In giving to Mr. Barr the control of this expedition had not made a careful

investigation into his record or into his cnnacity to conduct a large movement of this kind. Then the interview proceeds with something that seems to me to be very much more significant than what I have read. Mr. Preston continues as follows :-
Arrangements were made with the Elder-Dempster Line, by which Mr. Barr was to receive a commission on the bookings of his party, just in the same way as any other booking office would have acted towards any emigration agent. Under this arrangement he will probably receive 25s. per emigrant. He made no secret whatever to the Canadian government that he was to be remunerated in this way. In granting this concession to Mr. Barr, our government had no intention to divest itself of any responsibility in connection with the constituent elements of the party. It was specially laid down that they were all going out to engage in agricultural pursuits. In point of fact the emigrants paid their entrance fees for their homesteads through myself.
The statement is made here, that under an arrangement with the Elder Dempster line to which the Canadian government was a consenting party, Mr. Barr was to receive a commission of twenty-five shillings per immigrant. I can hardly believe myself that any such arrangement could have been made or that the Canadian government was a consenting party to it.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: There is nothing at all to indicate that the Canadian government had anything to do with the payment of a commission by the Elder Dempster Company; we had absolutely nothing to do with it. When I was making my statement I said that we were informed that the commission had been paid.


Robert Laird Borden: It does not say by whom the arrangement was made and it is quite open to what the minister suggests; that in the first place it was entirely an arrangement between Mr. Barr and the steamship company, although that is not perfectly plain from the words. However, under some arrangement made by some person, he was to receive twenty-five shillings per head from the Elder Dempster line, and the significant part of it is that he made no secret to the Canadian government that he was to be remunerated in this way. It seems to have been part of the arrangement made in London (when Mr. Barr went forward for the purpose of conducting this propaganda as it is called), that Mr. Barr was to receive a commission of twenty-five shillings per head upon each of these immigrants, amounting to the sum- if there were 2,000 of them-of about $12,000; that he made no secret of this to the Canadian government, and that the Canadian government were fully aware of it. If Mr. Preston's statements are correctly reported and if they are to be believed, it does seem to me that the relations between the Canadian government and Mr. Barr were not quite of that simple character
Mr. BORDEN fHalifax).
which the Minister of the Interior would seek to impress upon the House to-day. Further on Mr. Preston delivers himself as follows :


Mr. S. E. GOURLEY (Colchester-).: Mr. Speaker, I concur in every word that has fallen from the lips of the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Borden). Wisely or unwisely, truthfully or untruthfully, the people of Canada and the people of England, believe that Mr. Barr, was the agent of the government of Canada. That is the crucial point in this matter. Very often people get an erroneous idea ; but when once that idea is entertained by the people, it must be removed from their minds before the conclusion which they have reached will lie erased. I am persuaded that the public impression is pretty widespread, not only in Canada but in England, and in all countries from which we expect immigration, that the government of Canada has had an unworthy agreement of some kind with Mr. Barr. If that is not true-and I hope for the sake of the government of Canada and the people of Canada that it is not true-then no people should be more interested than the government of Canada, no man should be more 200
interested than the Minister of the Interior, in having the matter thoroughly and completely investigated, in order that there may be no shade of doubt in any man's mind that the government of Canada have acted honestly and honourably by the men it has invited to become citizens of this country. I was pained yesterday to read that Mr. Barr had been publicly pelted with rotten eggs in a most disgraceful way at the town of Regina, by the populace, or by a number of people, who claimed that they had been wronged by him. I say that is pelting the government of Canada. The pelting of Mr. Barr, in the eyes of the public of Europe, will be the pelting of the kon. Minister of the Interior. I would be very sorry to have a personal insult of that kind offered to any man in the cabinet, because it is an insult offered to me as a citizen of this country. I want the government to be, like Caesar's wife, above suspicion. It is an awful assumption to make, but we are bound constitutionally to make assumptions of a very sweeping character sometimes. I desire to read a few words which were uttered lately by Mr. Haultain in another place ; and we know that Mr. Haultain is not a partisan. I do not know particularly what politics he has. He seems to be a North-west man ; and we know that the gentlemen from the Nortk-ivest who are in this House, are ahead of the public in many instances, which is perhaps a very good thing to say of any men. Mr. Haultain is a North-west man ; and, occupying the responsible position he does, he is charged with maintaining the character and reputation of that country, and with looking after its interests; and he can do that in no better ivay than In seeing that every immigrant that comes to settle in the North-west is treated in an honest and honourable manner by the government of Canada. I want to see millions of people come and settle in this country, and I want to know that when they do come, they will send out favourable accounts: of the country in the" letters which tliejr write to their friends. These will influence immigration, more than anything, the hon. minister can do, because they wTill reflect the settler's impressions of the country, its government, its laws, and its administration of justice. According to the tales that are going around, Mr. Barr is looked upon as the representative of this government, and his conduct will reflect on the fair fame and integrity of Canada. Therefore, the Minister of the Interior should be the first person to feel sensitive on this point. The government's attempt to treat this matter liglitly will not be borne. The people will not permit their honour to be sullied at any time, especially when they are spending large sums of money for immigration purposes. The expenditure of that money is probably one of the best investments Canada can make; but charge that expenditure



witl>
the slightest taint, and for every dollar spent, $25 will not recompense the country for the injury it will do. Therefore when Mr. Haultaiu, the premier of the North-west, in whose country these immigrants will settle, charges this government, with, in some way, creating this impression on the minds of the immigrants, I care not how improperly it was created, that Mr. Barr was acting as their agent, it is their duty to clear the matter up. That impression exists, and the hon. gentleman can see that it exists, if he reads the papers of yesterday. The people of this country are a quiet pimple, not accustomed to be boisterous, but accustomed to wait for the vindication of justice in the courts on all occasions ; but I venture to say that if this government does not look out for itself, manifestations will take place all over the country, similar to that which took place at Regina ; because when the people do not get justice and) fair play, there is sufficient sense of right in the British bosom to cause them to resist violations of the constitution and to resort to rotten eggs, as was done at Regina yesterday.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Hear, hear.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I am glad that the lion. Postmaster General is aroused on this matter, and I apprehend that when he says ' hear, hear,' he realizes that a great wrong lias been done by the government of which he is a member, and is determined on behalf of the great province of Ontario to see that it is remedied.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The Minister of Labour 7


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Y'es, and there are a number of excellent labourers in my county who tell me, that this minister, does not righteously represent the interests of labour in this country. Mr. Haultain says that the Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships had to that extent recognized the scheme. I ask the minister, did the government allow Mr. Barr to reserve certain townships in the vicinity of those which were allotted to immigrants who "were coming to this country ? If he did, he did that which was a gross wrong. He enabled Mr. Barr to bring a number of settlers here, who would give value to the land reserved by him. and in that manner, a bargain was entered into, which wes most unjust to the people. No private individual should be allowed to make one dollar out of an immigration scheme. Better vote twice the money we do, if necessary, to encourage immigration, but be careful to preserve the poor immigrants from the machinations or the boodler. Let us keep these poor people out of the toils of the boodlers and speculators and grafters.


Mr. SCOTT.: Does the hon. member interpret Mr. Haultain's statement to mean Mr. GOURLEY.
that Mr. Haultain believed Mr. Barr was to be permitted to make money out of the reserving of land for the colonists ?


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Mr. Haultain used very guarded language. I shall read it to the hon. gentleman, and he may draw his own conclusion as I am drawing mine. Mr. Haultain said :
He did not wish to use his position in the House to make charges against Mr. Barr when that gentleman could not be present to reply. At the same time he thought that some remarks on the subject ought to he made and had very properly been made. Prom conversations he had had with members of the colony on the train, between Saskatchewan and Battleford, he was convinced that there had been some gross mismanagement in connection with the colony, and something worse than gross mismanagement in certain financial dealings with it.
My bon. friend may draw liis own conclusions. Mr. Haultain went on to add :
The Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships for them, had to that extent recognized the scheme, and it was the duty of that government to have all the charges cleared up by a thorough investigation.
The hon. the Minister of the Interior may consider himself innocent, but what do the people think of the matter ? What do the people of England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany and Austria think of it 7 It is the public opinion of those countries with which we have to deal. The hon. minister may treat this matter with a smile, but how do the relatives of the people who came here consider it ? When these colonists write home and say that they have been defrauded by the government of this country, and by Mr. Barr, what will these people think ? I do not wish to make any sweeping charges against anybody, but Mr. Barr was recognized in Europe as tlie agent of the government. He occupied perhaps a stronger position as the agent of the government than Mr. Preston. Mr. Preston is the acknowledged agent of the government in England, and if he should do anything, that could be charged against him, this government would be compelled at once to have an investigation. Well, I undertake to say that this reverend clergyman, occupied in the minds of the people of England a stronger position, as an agent of this country, than even Mr. Preston. Everybody knows in what esteem these clergymen are held in England. England owes its vast domains in Africa and Asia largely to the missionary. It owes its influence largely to these men from Oxford and Cambridge, who are the possessors of fortunes, and who use their money, not for their personal benefit, but in promoting settlement In those countries. South Africa was largely brought under the flag of England by Mr. McKenzie, one of the most accomplished clergymen who ever left the old country ; and I have no doubt that the

people of England regarded Mr. Barr as a high minded, wealthy gentleman, who, in the interests of the empire, without any low desire of making money for himself, was bringing out colonists to settle in this, the empire's principal colony. They never dreamed that he was other than a philanthropist, a religious enthusiast, who desired to help this empire and its people and was spending his own fortune to promote the welfare of Canada and the empire.


Thomas Walter Scott: Mr. Preston's interview would disabuse the minds of the English people of that mistaken impression.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I will undertake to say, knowing the history of England, knowing what has been done by English clergymen, as imperialists, In the work of settling the empire, that the very instant Mr. Barr appeared in any part of England, he would be regarded as one of the missionary priests who were devoting their energies to spreading the influence of the empire wherever they could. Hundreds of the clergymen of England, are doing this, every day, to their honour be it said, and Mr. Barr is the only clergyman of the Church of England I have ever heard of, who has prostituted his position for the purpose of making money out of the poor people. I believe that association has corrupted this gentleman, who might otherwise have been an honourable man. Possibly his contact with the government of Canada, in some way brought him from the high level of a clergyman of the Church of England down to the low level of a Canadian boodler. I ask you, Mr. Chairman


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.).: Address the Chair as Mr. Speaker.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: My hon. friend from Victoria (Hon. Mr. Ross), whom I regard very kindly, and whose face is usually a picture of repose and kindness-I wonder why that countenance which often reminds me, when the hon. gentleman is half asleep, very much of the Madonna


William Ross: It is difficult to refrain from calling the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that lie lias three times addressed Mr. Speaker as Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GOURLEY-is so much disturbed. Surely that does not cause that intense ruffling of the spirit which I see depicted in the physiognomy of my hon. friend. It must be the political knife which cuts that lion, gentleman this afternoon. Nothing else could so distort that countenance, which is usually marked by a peaceful, somnolent calm. I was proceeding to say that the association of this clergyman with the government of Canada was either unfortunate for the government or the clergyman-either one or the other.
An lion. MEMBER. Both.
200J


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Well, take it that way. There is only one thing to do. The hon. the Minister of the Interior seems to think that this is a little get-up of our friends over here. Let me tell him that there is a bigger get-up from the North-west, if we can believe the reports. Is it not extraordinary news we have had within a day or so from that lovely capital of the North-west; must not my hon. friends from the North-west blush to learn that these colonists, these people, usually so law-abiding, should have been so aroused, that they felt the necessity of taking the law into their own hands, as is done by our friends across the line 1 How these people must have suffered when we find a number of them so aroused as to threaten to resort to lynch law ; and it may possibly happen that these people will become so exasperated that they will break loose from the traditions of the empire, and forget that there are courts in this country where justice is administered. I call upon the government, in the interests of Canada, in the interests of the immigrants, to have the fullest investigation, so that, if they are innocent they can honourably part company with Mr. Barr. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister of the Interior ever met Mr. Barr. I happened to meet him at a hotel in Ottawa this winter, and I must tell you, Sir, at once, that when I heard him talking flippantly, without the slightest sense of propriety, about this movement, I saw at once that the government had made a most serious mistake in having anything to do with him. And when somebody told me he was a clergyman, I was shocked. And soon after upon meeting a person who knew him. this person told me :	' He is a sharper.' And
that is exactly the opinion I formed of the man when I met him at table at the Russell House. If the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) or the Finance Minister (Hon. Mr. Fielding) had had an interview with him, I am sure they would have had enough knowledge of human nature and enough shrewdness to know that Mr. Barr was not the man to entrust with the honour of Canada-for the ambassador carries the honour of his country-and the government did entrust him with the honour of Canada when they employed him to go up and down England, Scotland and Ireland to represent Canada, to solicit from these people their time and their fortunes to come to Canada and build up this country. Therefore, I hope that the government, in the interest of this great movement, will choose his agents with more discretion. For there is no movement that should be guarded with more care than the immigration movement. We want immigrants. We have territory for millions of people. For my part. I have never failed to do what I could to encourage the immigrant to come to this country, to make him believe that Canada is the fairest home

to be found on the face of this whole earth. I want every man to come to Canada. And no member of my party, thank God, has every said a word against his country. No member of that party has gone up and down throughout the length and breadth of Canada for ten years, as was done by some hon. gentleman opposite, decrying Canada and proclaiming that immigrants should seek a home in any other country on earth but this. I would not stay one hour with a party that would pursue such a policy. Since hon. gentlemen opposite came into power, we on this side have given them a fair chance to do the work the people expect of them. Wherever I am, I proclaim the glories of Canada. I am often criticised for being too intense a Canadian. But I venture to say, that in ten years, the man who loves his country, and uniformly proclaims that love will be in a better position, than the man who hedges, and doubts the possibilities and the future of this country. The young men are coming forward, and will soon be in possession and control of the affairs of Canada, and every young man, I meet, is seized of the idea, of the greatness, the imperial proportions. the magnificent opportunities and potentialities of this beloved Canada.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: If the House will extend its courtesy to me for a moment I would like to make a few remarks with regard to matters that have arisen in the course of the debate. In the first place, it is evident that our hon. friends on the other side are under the impression that this colony of people coming from England have been in some way ill treated, subjected to a reception which is likely to discourage other immigrants from coming. I wish.to say that I do not believe that, since the first ship) sailed up the St. Lawrence river, any body of immigrants have come to Canada who have been treated with the same lavish care as that bestowed upon this colony. They have received an amount of attention that no settlers that I ever heard of have received in any part of Canada before. The most elaborate preparations were made by the department, and hon. gentlemen will find, if they will inquire of men upon the ground who are acquainted with the circumstances of the case, that there lias been no attempt in any way whatever to criticise the organization or the work of the department in taking care of these immigrants. We did what never was done before in connection with any party of immigrants-sent out people to put up tents furnished with stoves and put caretakers in attendance. These tents stood twenty miles apart in the colonists' route, so that they might be properly taken care of. The people who settled Manitoba did not have government tents to sleep in. I have seen them in hundreds and thousands going out Mr. GOURLEY.
in their wagons and sleeping under the wagons no matter what the weather was. But, as I say, these colonists were treated with the most elaborate care. And if hon. gentlemen will take the trouble to inquire they will find that every person familiar with the facts of the case will agree with what was stated in a debate in the Northwest Assembly, a copy of which has just been placed in my hands, an extract from which I will read to show that the Immigration Department has done everything which human foresight could devise to provide a proper reception for these immigrants. I quote from the Regina ' Leader ' of July 2nd. Mr. Glinkskill. while attacking Mr. Barr-and, I may say, it seems to be popular to attack Mr. Barr just now- added :
He could not speak too highly of the action of the Immigration Department and the trouble that had been taken by the department. From the time of the arrival of the colonists to the time they were settled on their homesteads the government had done everything in its power.
In addition to doing everything in our power to take care of these people when they arrived and to see that they were transported to their farms, and that their homesteads were found and located for them, we provided farming instructors to teach them the method of putting in and taking care of their crops. So that, so far as that point is concerned, I do not think there is any necessity for defense. But I may add, while I am on this point, that the immigration officials of the government in England are likely to have more trouble in answering the statements of the members of the opposition in this House and elsewhere with regard to the immigration than they are to meet any statements made by members of the Barr colony or any other English settlers in Canada. I object not at all to the statement of my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) or to some of the other statements made. But statements which indicate that English immigrants coining here are ill-treated i r not properly received are; the worst and most difficult to meet on the part of our immigration agents in the old country. The anxiety some of our hon. friends express for the success of immigration would be better shown by refraining from making statements which cannot be justified. Now, a word or two with regard to the promises made or engagements entered into by the government with these people. The government entered into no engagement whatever with these people except that they would give them homesteads within a certain tract of land. They did reserve and give homesteads in that tract to any who wanted them. A considerable number of these people found, as we knew they would find when they came here, that they did not want to take up homesteads in that tract. We did the best we could to find homesteads for them in

other places. It has been stated that a large number have returned to England and have complained of the treatment they received. I have the statement of the oliicsr who is in charge of these people that not a single original Barr colonist has returned to England. That statement was made on the 16th June, about twenty days ago. The statements made in the press in regard to this matter as a rule, are simply wild statements. Our friends on the other side of the House should not take up statements of this kind, assume that they are true and hold the government responsible for the condition of things which they show, making speeches in this House which are taken up in England as made by responsible men


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the bon. gentleman (Hon. Sir. Sifton) find anything in the paper he read from to contradict statements made by Sir. Haultain.
The	SIINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
What statement ?


Edward Frederick Clarke: The statements presented by him in the legislature.
The	SIINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
What part of it ? Sir. Haultain made a speech

Sir.	CLARKE.	The	whole statement.
Will the hon. Slinister of the Interior read that statement ? I will send him a copy now.
The	SIINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR
(reading)
The Premier said he did not wish to use his position in the House to make charges against Mr. Barr when that gentleman could not be present to reply. At the same time, he thought some remarks on the subject ought to he made and had very properly been made. From conversation he had had with members of the colony on the trail between Saskatoon and Battleford, he was convinced there had been some gross mismanagement in connection with the colony, and something worse than gross mismanagement in certain financial dealings with it. The Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number cf townships had to that extent recognized the scheme, and it was the duty of that government to have all the charges cleared up by a thorough investigation. He said this was in the interests of the territories and in the interests of some of the best immigrants that ever came into the country.
My hon. friend asked me if I was contradicting Mr. Haultain. I am not prepared to contradict Mr. Haultain. He expressed his opinion and he is entitled to it. Possibly his opinion may he correct, hut the grounds of his opinion have not been laid before me, and therefore, until they have been, I am entitled to entertain my own opinion.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Probably the hon. gentle man did not hear me. He stated to the House that he had received a newspaper
containing a report of the debate, and he read from a paper that Mr. Clinkskill stated that great care and attention had been paid to the immigrants, and I asked him if he found anything in the debate contradicting the assertions made by the premier?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I was referring to the action of the department, and I say the fact is that the department lias done everything it was possible to do on behalf of these immigrants. We have dealt with them in the most careful and considerate way, and my hon. friends on the other side of the House could not, if they desired to do so, lay their finger upon a single thing that ought to have been done which was not done in connection with the arrangements or the reception of these immigrants. Now the point which the hon. gentleman originally drew attention to, and to which I find no fault, is the apparent allegation that there has been financial dealings between members of the colony and Mr. Barr himself, and that Mr. Barr has not dealt properly with them. In so far as that is concerned, as I have already said in reply to the hon. gentleman, I have no information, and can therefore express no opinion. But so far as the relations of the department with these people are concerned, I have to say that we have not been in default in any respect whatever, and that no member of the colony, so far as I know, has stated that the government has been at fault or bas been in default in its dealings with them. My hon. friend, the leader of the opposition, has made a laboured attempt to show that the statement I made in my first remarks regarding the relations between Mr. Barr, the colony, and Mr. Barr and the department, was not correct. I have to repeat that the statement which I made was absolutely correct.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not say it was incorrect. All I said was that it did not seem to be quite consistent with the statement of the Commissioner of Immigration.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The hon. gentleman's argument appeared designed to leave upon the minds of the members of the House the impression that my statement was not accurate. I have simply to say that my statement was accurate in every possible respect. I may say en passant that I did not assume, in stating the position as I did, that I am bound by a newspaper report of statements of one of tlie officers of the department, which may or may not be correctly reported. But tire facts are precisely as I have stated, that the relations of the department with Mr. Barr consisted simply in the fact that we reserved certain lands in pursuance of the arrangements which we made with Mr. Barr, and Mr. Barr has riot received any

commission from the Department of the Interior in any way, shape or form, and no agreement exists between the department and Mr. Barr to pay him anything. If Mr. Preston did make any statement that indicated the contrary, his statement was to that extent incorrect. The deputy minister made the arrangement himself, and he informs me that lie refused to make any arrangement for compensation. The only tiling in the world that the department did, so far as Mr. Barr was concerned, was to say, if you secure settlers for these lands before a certain date, we will accept entries for them. Mr. Barr paid his money, he produced his settlers, and they made their entry, and the result is that we have at the present time something over 1,800 homestead entries from good and substantial people, some of the best people, as Mr. Haul-tain said, that ever went into the North-west. As my colonial agent reports, not a single one of these immigrants has returned to England. So I do not see that there is anything unsatisfactory in the nature of the transaction, nor do I see any reason why it should be criticised adversely. It is, no doubt, unfortunate that the financial arrangements between Mr. Barr and the people he brought out turned out as they did. It would be more satisfactory if he had been able to remain with the colony and to close the matter up. But no member of that colony has laid any complaints before the department, no member of the colony has said to the department, we have been misled, we have paid this money for which we .have got no value. Therefore, nothing has been done which would justify the Department of the Interior in ordering an investigation. The position at the present time is that the affair has been successfully carried out. In so far as Mr. Barr and his people are concerned, and the financial arrangements originally entered into between them, if they have been severed, they have been severed voluntarily by the people and Mr. Barr, and Mr. Barr has refunded any money which he may have had that belonged to these people. If, therefore, the position is such that an investigation is demanded, then certainly the information ought to be placed before the department which would justify such an investigation, but up to the present time that has not been done.


Robert Laird Borden: With the indulgence of the House, I would like to say one or two words in respect to what has just fallen from the Minister of the Interior. He accused me of having made a laboured statement to show that he was incorrect. I did not make any laboured statement, or any statement at all, to show that he was incorrect, but I brought to his attention, as it was my right and duty to do, the fact that the statement of his chief commissioner of immigration in England was entirely Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
different to that which he made in the House, and entirely different to that which he has made to the House just now. My hon. friend, says he is not responsible for the utterances of Mr. Preston. He is responsible for the utterances of Mr. Preston when Mr. Preston undertakes to speak as commissioner of immigration for Canada.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend is now making a statement wholly incorrect. I did not say that I was not responsible for the utterances of Mr. Preston, I said I was not responsible for his reported utterances, which might or might not be correct. If the hon. gentleman wishes to criticise my utterances, he should take the trouble to listen to what I said.


Robert Laird Borden: I listened carefully to the hon. gentleman, and I gathered from his statement what I said to the House a moment ago. If he did not mean that, I am glad to know it. I think under the circumstances it would be his duty to communicate at once by telegrain with his chief commissioner in London and find whether that chief commissioner did make a statement which is diametrically opposed to the statement of the Minister of the Interior in the House to-day. That at least is ,due to the House, and due to the country, and to the government of which the hon. gentleman is a member, and more than that, to himself. Now it is a remarkable thing that the chief commissioner of immigration in England should have made this statement, if lie has made it, and we find it reported in the ' Canadian Gazette ' in London, a reputable journal, we find it copied in the 'Westminster Gazette,' another reputable journal, that Mr. Barr was to receive seven shillings apiece for each of these immigrants. My hon. friend does not say that he is not to receive anything.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, I do.


Robert Laird Borden: Well, he did not state that to the House.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, I did.


Robert Laird Borden: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon. I marked his words most particularly. He said that his deputy minister had not made any agreement


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not at all, the hon. gentleman is making a statement that is wholly incorrect. I stated as clearly as the English language would allow that there was no such arrangement for the payment of any money to Mr. Barr, and I then followed it up by saying that my deputy minister had so informed me.


Robert Laird Borden: Well, I understood the hon. gentleman to say nothing of the kind, but to use the language which I have quoted, and I say that after hearing

liis very emphatic statement made just now


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: ' Hansard ' will show.


Robert Laird Borden: I am perfectly aware of that, that is not special news to us. The hon. gentleman is not enlightening us in any way by stating that ' Hansard ' will show. We knew that before he made the remark.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It will enlighten the hon. gentleman when he reads it.


Robert Laird Borden: This is, I think, notwithstanding the very flippant way in which the hon. gentleman is disposed to treat it, a matter of some serious concern, because, we have Mr. Preston reported in two leading journals of the mother country as having stated that the government was to pay to Mr. Barr seven shillings per head for these immigrants. We have that published through the length and breadth of the United Kingdom, and if that statement is incorrect which was made as far back as the 28th of May, how does it happen that no contradiction has been made in the ' Canadian Gazette ' or in some leading journal in the mother country ? I suppose the hon. minister's attention or the attention of some of his officials has been drawn to this interview. I would suppose that the officers' in charge of the administration of his department would keep track of information of this kind relating to the Department of the Interior, and I have not the slightest doubt that this came to the attention of some officer of his department, although, of course I accept without the slightest hesitation the statement of the hon. gentleman that he knew of it for the first time to-day. If we have a right to assume that, how does it happen that up to this time uot the slightest contradiction of Mr. Preston's statement has been made ? How does it happen that no officer of the Department of the Interior has called the attention of Mr. Preston to the fact that he has made a very serious and misleading statement in the press of the mother country and which is to be found in the newspaper which I have just read to the House ? The hon. minister thinks that the opposition are to be censured for bringing this matter to the attention of the gov-'ernment. that we ought to apologize, as has been suggested, for bringing the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that one of his officers is reported as publishing through a leading paper in the mother country a statement diametrically opposed to that which he has given to the House to-day. I should think the hon. gentleman would be glad to have his attention called to the subject in order that he might tell Mr. Tres-ton that the statement made by him was a statement that had no foundation in fact. Instead of that he seems to be a little pettish on the subject, a little irritable, and he talks about the attempts made to show that what he has said is incorrect. Some one is incorrect. There is no doubt that either Mr. Preston is incorrect or the hon. minister is incorrect, and we assume in the House, of course, taking the hon. gentleman's statement, that it is Mr. Preston who is incorrect. I say that if Mr. Preston is incorrect the sooner he Is corrected the better, because the hon. gentleman cannot conceal from the people of this country the fact that there has been a great deal of scandal in connection with this immigration, and when coupled with that we have the fact that the people of the British Isles are infcrmed that Mr. Barr was in the pay of this government I do not think it is necessary for the hon. gentleman to show the pettishness lie has done in regard to this matter or the spirit in which he has dealt with it in making the speech which he has just made to this House. I think it is of importance to this country that incorrect statements should not be published in the mother country by Mr. Preston acting as chief commissioner of the Canadian government in respect to immigration. I repeat that statement. I withdraw nothing from it. I say that in bringing this matter to the attention of the House my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) has done no more than his duty and now that these facts have been brought to his attention he would have failed absolutely in his duty as a public man and as a member of this House if he had not brought this matter to the attention of this House and the country.


Mr.   BEBB@: Did I understand the hon. minister to make the statement that the department have received 1,800 homestead entries from the Barr colonists ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, I will give my hon. friend (Mr. Bell) the number in a moment-it is 1823.
Mi-. BELL. Now, the deputy minister in giving evidence in the course of this session before the Committee on Agriculture said-


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I would call the attention of the hon. member (Mr. Beil) to the fact that he has already spoken.


Adam Carr Bell: I think several other hon. gentlemen have already spoken.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I would prefer to give the hon. gentleman the information if he wishes to ask for it.


Adam Carr Bell: The statement was made by Mr. Smart, Deputy Minister of the Interior before the Committee on Agriculture that out of 1,500 or 1,600 entries, only about 500 of these colonists had settled in the colony and on the adjacent lands.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When was that statement made ?


Adam Carr Bell: On the 3rd of June, 1903.
*6383

(5384
The MINISTER OB' THE INTERIOR. I suppose they have been making entries since that time ?


Adam Carr Bell: The deputy minister claimed that up to that time they had made some 1,500 or 1,000 entries.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have received from the people who came in Mr. Barr's party altogether, according to the returns that were furnished to me yesterday, 1,823 entries, but of course ihey are not all on the reserve. They were made at different places. If they decided to go elsewhere we facilitate them in doing so.


Adam Carr Bell: I suppose the hon. minister can bring down the returns to which he has just referred ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The information was furnished by the department to me yesterday.


Adam Carr Bell: Could the hon. minister lay that on the Table ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, if the hon. gentleman desires it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Sir William Mulock).: I do not wish to take up the time of the House, but I would just call the attention of the House to what Air. Preston is reported to have said in the ' Canadian Gazette ' from which the hon. leader of the opposition (Sir. Borden, Halifax) has quoted. I understood the hon. leader of the opposition to allege that the statement of Mr. Preston was that Mr. Barr was to receive from the Canadian government seven shillings per head for the immigrants he brought to Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: I read his statement and I read it seven shillings per head. He said the amount had not been finally settled. I read the exact words.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman read the statement and commented upon it and in his comment he ventured to depart from the statement. I merely wish to emphasize the fact that his comment suggesting that Mr. Preston had stated that the government intended to pay seven shillings per head is not borne out by the quotation. The hon. gentleman pretended to suggest that there was some conflict of statement between the hon. Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton) and Mr. Preston inasmuch as the hon. Minister of the Interior had laid it down beyond any question there was no foundation for Ihe statement that Mr. Barr was to be paid by the Canadian government seven shillings per head or anything per head, and that Mr. Preston's statement was at variance with the statement of the hon. minister. That is the suggestion of the hon. leader of the opposition and his suggestion is a development of the statement of Mr. Preston. His comment and inference are far greater Mr. BELL.
than are warranted by the statement of Mr. Preston. I find that Mr. Preston said at the most, according to the report ' he will also probably receive ' not that he will receive, but that * he will also probably receive ' and then it goes on to say [DOT] the matter has not yet been settled.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: Read the whole of it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Will the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) permit me to read it ? I am trying to read the report of his statement. ' He will also probably receive-the matter has not yet been settled-seven shillings per emigrant from the Canadian government.' Then, the hon. leader of the opposition, forgetting that Mr. Preston said that he would 'probably' receive and forgetting that Mr. Preston said the matter had not been settled proce ds to attribute to Mr. Preston the positive statement that the government had promised to pay seven shillings per head. That is something that an officer 3,000 miles away cannot know and that is the way such a qualified statement as this can be developed in a few moments into a positive allegation. Surely the hon. leader of the opposition is forgetting that at a meeting of the Com-m'ttee on Agriculture to which the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Bell) alluded the Deputy Minister of the Interior was examined. I was not present at that meeting, but I am told that the deputy minister was examined on that question and upon that question he stated in the most explicit language that the government had not agreed to pay Mr. Barr any money per head for these colonists and that that statement of Air. Smart was duly reported in the press of Canada. And yet in the face of that, and the qualified doubting statement of an officer, the leader of the opposition pretends to allege that a certain sum must have been agreed upon to be paid. That is not a fair argument for the leader of the opposition to make, and a closer regard to accuracy would give much greater weight to any argument that may be advanced for the enlightenment of this House or the country.


Air. G. W. FOWLER (King's, N.B.).: It is rather amusing to find the Alinister of the Interior adopting the tone he has adopted in lecturing hon. gentlemen on this side of the House for making any criticism whatever of anything that occurs in his department. Has the Department of the Interior during the hon. gentleman's incumbency of office been conducted in such a manner as to preclude criticism ? Has not the air been full of rumours too with respect to mismanagement in the Yukon? Is there not now a commission appointed to investigate into the affairs of the Yukon : have not the newspapers for several months past beeii full of complaints with respect to this Barr colony? And yet we are not to mention the matter here because we are told it is going to have a serious effect upon immigration into

this country. Why, Sir, Premier Haultain of the North-west Territories made a stronger j statement in the North-west Assembly. He having met these colonists on their trek from Saskatoon to Battleford; having talked to them and having heard their complaints, lie the premier of that country says that these are grave charges against tliis government, and that in the interest of the country these charges should be investigated. Mr. Haultain very clearly and very distinctly connects the government with Mr. Barr in this matter. I believe that it is in the interest of truth and it should be stated that after the mischief had been done, after this man Barr had been sent as an agent to England and allowed to make all sorts of wild and gross misstatements in regard to the conditions that the immigrants would find in Canada ; after all this had been done and the people were brought here, I do believe that the department made an honest effort to try and make the conditions as easy for these immigrants as possible. I was in Winnipeg and visited the immigration office there and I am satisfied from the statements to me that the officers were doing honestly what they could to make things as easy for these immigrants as possible. But the mischief had already been done, and it was not the officers at Winnipeg who were to blame, but it was the officers higher placed in the department who made this arrangement, Mr. Preston made his statement which appeared in the ' Cana-ian Gazette' on the 28th of May at the very time when the Minister of the Interior was In London, and I have no doubt he was in daily communication with his officer Mr. Preston, and I have no doubt that he read the 'Canadian Gazette.' It is a sort of quasi government organ, I believe, and it is looked upon of course as speaking with authority on Canadian matters in England and I assume the minister read the statement. At all events he should have read it and in the absence of any contrary statement I believe he did.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I stated in reply to the leader of the opposition and I state now that my attention was never called to the interview in question until this afternoon. I was in London at the time I believe. I did not occupy much of my time in reading newspapers, but whether I did or not I did not see that interview and I never saw the statements contained in it until now.


George William Fowler: It may be that the minister's social duties were.so great as to deprive him of the opportunity of reading the newspapers, and of course I must accept the statement that he did not see the interview in question. But Mr. Preston must have seen the interview and he has not contradicted it, and therefore we must take it for granted that the interview represents
exactly what Mr. Preston said. The Minister of the Interior, as he has admitted, is responsible for the statements of his agent Mr. Preston. Mr. Preston of course gave us the impression last year that he was as big a man as the Minister of the Interior himself.


Edward Frederick Clarke: An understudy.


George William Fowler: Yes a sort of understudy to the minister. At all events it is perfectly true that the Minister of the Interior cannot divest himself of the responsibility for whatever failure there may be in connection with this Barr colony. Mr. Preston says in his uncontradicted statement that they were in constant communication with Mr. Barr from the outset, and on the 28th of May, long after the immigrants had shown themselves to be thoroughly dissatisfied with Mr. Barr's leadership and had repudiated him and driven him out of the colony ; even after that, Mr. Preston the responsible head of the immigration office in London states that they were perfectly satisfied with Mr. Barr. Therefore they would make Mr. Barr their agent even by that endorsation alone, so that the department is absolutely responsible for everything this man Barr lias done. The complaint we make is that they took this man up without knowing anything of his character, and without taking precautions that he would not make statements to the immigrants which were grossly misleading, and induce them to come here under false pretenses. And now the minister insinuates that we are unpatriotic because we draw the attention of the country to the misconduct of the Department of the Interior in this respect. If we had no other justification, the statement that is made by Mr. Haultain the Premier of the North-west Territories, is sufficient in itself. He says:-


Mr. DAVIS.: Read it again.


George William Fowler: It cannot be read too often and I should think that the member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) would have interest enough in that country from which he comes


Mr. BENNETT.: He has got all he can.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I have not got as much as you have yet; you better sing small.


George William Fowler: These railways that the member for Saskatchewan has in that country would not be much good to him if there is a black eye given, to immigration. Mr. Haultain says :
From conversations he had with members of the colony on the trail between Saskatoon and Battleford he was convinced there had been gross mismanagement.
That is strong language coming from the premier of the Territories. Gross mismanagement by whom ? Was it by Mr Barr ? Well, if it be. Mr. Barr is the accredited agent of the Department of the Interior ac-



[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by,the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows :
His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of your honourable House in the Senate Chamber.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, with the House, went to the Senate chamber.
And having returned,
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I have the honour to inform the House that when the House did attend His Excellency the Governor General in the Seuate Chamber, His Excellency was pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the Royal Assent to the following Bills :
An Act to incorporate the Home Bank of Canada.
An Act respecting the Quebec Bridge Company. and to change its name to ' The Quebac Bridge and Railway Company.'
An Act respecting the Vancouver and Kootenay Railway Company.
An Act to confer on the Commissioner of Patents certain powers for the relief of James S. McDougall.
An Act respecting the London and Port Stanley Railway Company.
An Act respecting the Rocky Mountain Railway and Coal Company.
An Act to incorporate the New Canadian Company, Limited.
An Act to amend chapter 27 of the revised statutes, respecting the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
An Act respecting and restricting Chinese Immigration.
An Act to -amend the Customs Act.
An Act to provide for further advances to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal.
An Act respecting certain aid for the extension of the Canadian Northern Railway.
An Act to incorporate the Lumberman's Fire Insurance Company.
An Act to aid in the settlement of Railway Labour Disputes.
An Act for granting to His Majesty the certain sums of money for the public service of the financial years ending respectively, 30th June, 1903. and the 30tli June, 1904.



['In accordance with the agreement referred to, I beg to move:\nProvided always that the location of the line of railway to be built by the company hereby incorporated shall not at any point be nearer than five miles from the line of railway now or hereafter built or located by the Quebec and New Brunswick Railway Company except with the consent of the latter company or of the Governor General in Council.']
George William Fowler: When interrupted by the summons of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. I was referring to the statement >
made by the bon. the Minister of Labour

and his attempt to prove that the hon. the leader of the opposition drew a wrong inference from the Preston Interview. That interview we must accept as authentic. The proof of its authenticity is beyond all question. Mr. Preston says :
He will also probably receive-the matter has not yet been settled-seven shillings per immigrant from the Canadian government.
The only inference, Mr. Speaker, that can be drawn from that statement is that an amount was to be paid, but what that amount was to be had not yet been settled. Mr. Preston speaks in another place :
It being the custom to pay to agents obtaining immigrants a certain percentage per head.
I think that is what the department does when immigrants are brought from the United States. The agents are allowed $3 per head, and evidently this man was to get a certain amount, probably seven shillings per head. It may be that now, on account of these complaints, the government will not pay him anything. Certainly they should not, under the circumstances. 1 fail to understand why the hon. the Minister of the Interior should have thought fit to censure hou. members on this side for bringing this matter up. Why, we would be remiss in our duty if we did not ; we would lay ourselves open to censure for having failed to do our duty. I find in the Toronto 'News' of July 9th, the following despatch from Winnipeg :
As to his future plans, Mr. Barr was noncommittal. saying these were yet indefinite but it was possible he might bring out more immigrants.
So well satisfied apparently was the government with Mr. Barr that he is on the point of bringing out more immigrants. Yet, we are to be censured by the hon. the Minister of the Interior for venturing to criticise this tiling in the House. The hon. the minister would evidently like to be in the position of the Czar of all the Russias, against whom, when he issues an edict, no man dare say a word. That might suit the hon. gentleman, and he might find it convenient to put the country under martial law. The hon. gentleman will have to look after the newspapers, for they are committing the unpardonable sin of daring to criticise the conduct of his own department. Unquestionably this is a matter that should have, as Mr. Haultaiu says, a most thorough investigation. It is incumbent on the Department of the Interior to clear itself of these charges, because the charges made against Mr. Barr are actually made against the Department of the Interior, which made him its agent. Could there be any doubt in any man's mind as to the agency existing between Mr. Barr and the Department of the Interior ? What are the facts ? This man Barr, before he did anything at all. went to the Department of the Interior and arranged to have a block of homesteads reserved for him and his colony. Then he went to the Canadian Pacific Railway and got a reserve of certain lands adjoining these homesteads. Then, from the very inception of this scheme, Mr. Barr was in constant communication with the government. The government knew everything that was going on, and approved of his plans. The government insisted upon knowing all about the character of the immigrants he was bringing in. Mr. Preston said :
In granting this concession to Mr. Barr, our government had no intention of divesting itself of its responsibility.
But they had the same responsibility as if Mr. Preston himself, or any other agent in the employ of the department, had got up that colony. Mr. Preston said : 1 We do not wish to divest ourselves of any responsibility.' The hon. the Minister of the Interior to-day, however, declines to assume any responsibility. Mr. Preston further said :
The immigrants paid their entrance fees to the homesteads through myself, and so perfect was our organization that not an hour's delay at any point, not even at Winnipeg, from which came such disquieting news some time ago, was experienced in passing through.
We know better than that. We know that it was a long time before these people could be moved. We know that there was a great deal of trouble and difficulty while they were camped at Saskatoon, and that no proper arrangements were made for their removal. They were told by Mr. Barr-and that must have been with the knowledge of Mr. Preston, because he says the government were perfectly cognizant of everything connected with the transaction-that houses would be ready for them and that teams would be on band to carry them from Saskatoon to their homesteads, and that a certain amount of ploughing had beep done. Not one of these houses were built, and tents had to be provided for these people when they arrived at their destination. The statement of Mr. Preston, therefore, with respect to the arrangements made, is absolutely untrue. After these people were dumped down by Mr. Barr, in Saskatoon, the department did take hold of them and do what it could under the circumstances, it is not for what the department did for these people, after they were dumped at Saskatoon, that we are criticising it, but because the hon. minister anil his officers were not aware that this was simply a money making scheme of Mr. Barr, and'that lie was gulling these people all through. A considerable number of those colonists were certainly not suited to agricultural life at all, and had not the slightest conception of wliat it meant. Some of them had never been outside the city of London, except on Hampstead Hill. I do not see how the government can escape responsibility, and we demand an investigation, in order to have

tliose responsible brought to account. Instead of its being an injury to the country to have this matter criticised, it will be for the good of the country to show the outside world that when there is anything wrong we are willing to investigate and make it right. It is the bounden duty of the hon. minister to see that a thorough investigation be made at once by a responsible party, and that compensation be given those who have been wronged, and punishment be meted out to the guilty.


Thomas Osborne Davis: The opposition may congratulate themselves upon the fact that they have kicked up quite a disturbance, which they think, perhaps, may have the effect of interfering with the good work that is being done by the Minister of the Interior in promoting immigration. I quite sympathize with the opposition. They have been fishing all session, and up to the present time they have been able to catch nothing. But they think now they have hooked a small minnow


An hon. MEMBER.: A bar.


Thomas Osborne Davis: They think they have got a little fish in the shape of this trouble they have made this afternoon. The whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, and they have gone far afield to connect Mr. Barr with the gov-'ernment in this immigration scheme. I am not going to discuss any of the statements made by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fowler) who has just taken his seat, nor the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley). But I do think the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax), who occupies a very responsible position in this House has gone a little far afield in trying to misquote the statements made by the Minister of the Interior. and also the statements made in the 'Canadian Gazette' as to what Mr. Preston said in the old country. The leader of the opposition made the positive statement that the government had agreed to give Mr. Barr seven shillings for each immigrant that he brought out. and that Mr. Preston said so. He never said anything of the kind


Robert Laird Borden: I beg the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Davis) pardon. I read exactly what Mr. Preston did say.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I accept the statement of the hon. gentleman. But it appears to jne that it was as clear as the English language could make it that Mr. Preston did not say what has keen attribued to him, but he said that the matter had not been settled but they might probably give seven shillings a head. However, as I said, the whole case is a tempest in a teapot. I would like to review the whole case.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh. oh.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I am interested in this matter, and I venture to say I know as much about it, and perhaps a good deal more, than some of the hon. gentlemen who have Mr. FOWLER.
been speaking on the other side. I am in communication all the time with the gentlemen connected with the colonists. I met Mr. Barr When he arrived with his colony at St. John, and all the colonists that I spoke to were well seized of the fact that the government had nothing to do with Mr. Barr, that he was going on his own responsibility, and had no connection with the government. This Mr. Barr, an English clergyman, came to the department and said he intended to bring out a colony of Englishmen. Of course, we are anxious, as hon. gentlemen opposite are anxious, to get English immigrants into Canada. The department treated Mr. Barr courteously and set aside a certain quantity of land for the colonists he intended to bring in. Mr. Barr brought the colonists in and the government had nothing to do with him, but they did all they could to facilitate the settlement of these colonists. That is proven by the gentleman who brought this question up in the North-west assembly, Mr. Cliukskill. He stated that the government had done everything they could to make things easy for the colonists on their arrival in Canada. This gentleman, Mr. Olinkskill, who started all this disturbance, is a strong Conservative. If he could have made out anything against the government he would have been glad to do it. But he declared in the assembly that the government and its officials had done.everything possible for these colonists. And Air. Haultain made a statement, he made no charge, but simply a rambling statement in reply to Mr. Clinkskill and suggested that the ease should be investigated. What is there to investigate ? The government is not concerned in the matter so far as I can see, except that they did what they could to facilitate the settlement of these people in Canada. Some of the statements made by hon. gentlemen opposite may have the effect of checking the stream of immigration to this country. So far as the people of the North-west are 'concerned, they will not thank these gentlemen for the statements they have made this afternoon. One gentleman, for instance, said that the Barr colony had not proven a success. As a matter of fact it is a success. The fact that Air. Barr as head of the colony has been ousted, to use the common expression, does not prove that the colony is not successful. I have a letter from Air. Lloyd, who is in charge of the colony, and he assures me that the colonists are doing all right, making their entries and going ahead. If there were any charges to be made, Air. Lloyd would probably be the man to make them. If there had been anything unpleasant, would not he have written to the minister cr somebody else asking for an investigation ? But there is nothing in his letters about these gentlemen having been swindled out of their money by Air. Barr. He wrote to me that the colonists wanted a post office. The Postmaster General sent up an inspector

to look over the situation, and the result is that they have their post office. They get everything they ask for. The Minister of the Interior has even sent up a sub-agent to receive their entries, so that they may not have to drive sixty or seventy miles to make them. The colonists have nothing against the government; they are not grumbling at all. There may be some grumbling in connection with Mr. Barr,.but Mr. Barr and the government are separate people. If when Mr. Barr, an English clergyman, came here to Ottawa and said he was organizing a colony of British immigrants, the minister had not treated him as he did, and if he had not set aside these lands, what a howl would have been raised by hon. gentlemen opposite. They would have raised a debate lasting even longer than this one, and would have declared that we did not approve of British immigrants, that no immigrants would suit us, but Doukhobors and Galicians and so on. as they have said over and over again. The Immigration Department, under the control of the lion. Minister of the Interior has proved most successful. It makes hon. gentlemen opposite sore to And that 120.000 good immigrants were brought into this country last year, particularly when they contrast this with the feeble efforts put forth by their own friends when they were in office. These hon. gentlemen are always looking for a weak point in this government, but, so far as what they have been talking about this afternoon is concerned, there is very little capital in it all for them. Why did Mr. Clinkskill bring this matter up in the territorial assembly ? Hon. gentlemen opposite read the newspapers, so they must have been made aware that when Mr. Barr got to Saskatoon, he and ' r. Clink-skill had a falling out which nearly, ended in a free fight. Mr. Clinkskill would naturally feel a little sore; so lie, went down to the meeting of the assembly and made these statements against Mr. Barr. There was not a word, mark you, against the government though Mr. Clinkskill is a strong Conservative. Mr. Haultain answered in a general way that there should be an investigation. There is nothing in that; he makes no charges. And now hon. gentlemen opposite take it up and make it the subject of half a day's debate in the hope that they may be able to show that there is something wrong and that they may stop immigration coming into the country. They c uld occupy their time more profitably in discussing other subjects. No doubt, what they have said will make good newspaper articles for their press, and it will be wired across to Britain to make sensational articles there. So far as the benefit of Canada is concerned, these hon. gentlemen opposite are not doing a friendly act, and they are very far' from helping us to settle the prairies of the west.


Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: The hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) seems to think that the opposition have done
something wrong in bringing this matter before the House, and characterizes the conduct of hon. gentlemen on this side as raising a tempest in a teapot. Is that what he calls the remarks of the premier of the territories made in the legislative assembly a few days ago ? Has he no respect for the high position of Mr. Haultain and the views he expressed, that he should characterize this as a tempest in a teapot ?


Thomas Osborne Davis: I want to tell the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) that no doubt the premier of the North-west Territories is trying to assist hon. gentlemen opposite to kick up some kind of a disturbance. He is doing it all the time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Mr. Haultain made a statement in reference to facts that came under his own observation. He said he had received information at first hand, and therefore he was justified in making the grave charges which he did, charges of financial mismanagement, even of crookedness.


Thomas Walter Scott: Did Mr. Haultain, in his speech in the assembly, say that the government was connected directly or indirectly with any of these financial transactions 7


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He said that the government's connection with it demanded a searching inquiry, in the interests of immigration and in the interests of the Northwest Territories, so as either to substantiate the charges or disprove them. Yet the hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis>
says it is only a tempest in a teapot.


Thomas Osborne Davis: The colony were well pleased with the fact that the government had nothing to do with Mr. Barr.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where did they so express themselves, and when 7 It was not in the provinces, because we never saw anything to that effect. But they associated the Rev. Mr. Barr with the operations carried on by the government, and does the member for Saskatchewan take the ground that there was no connection between Mr. Barr and the government ? No connection after Mr. Barr had succeeded in getting the government to set apart several townships of land for the purpose of enabling him to colonize it. and to get a commission for so doing, for the purpose of enabling him to get a rake-off out of it. under the garb of philanthropy, when bringing people from the old country here under misrepresentation and delusion 7 Yet vre are told that it is only a tempest in a teapot. He says the Barr colony wras a great success, and he says that in face of the fact that we are told by a reporter from that country that only 500 out of the 2,000 have settled in that colony. What became of the other 1,500 7 They were like the children of Israel who wandered forty years in the wilderness, and when they got to the promised land very few were remaining of those who left their homes. Then it was

not an unqualified success. These men discovered, when they reached the promised land which was represented to them as a land flowing with milk and honey, that they had been misled and deceived. The Minister of the Interior says he thinks it is a very improper thing that the opposition should bring this matter to the attention of the House and the country. Why, if nothing else was accomplished in bringing this matter to the attention of the minister than to give him an opportunity of knowing what he did not know before, which he admits himself he did not know, I say if nothing else was accomplished but to enable him to contradict the allegations which were made in the ' Canadian Gazette ' in. London, then we are justified in bringing it before the House. He declared that the statements that appeared in the ' Gazette ' were incorrect in almost every particular, but he admits that he had not seen these statements, and knew nothing of them until they were brought to Ills attention in the House to-day. So, if nothing else was accomplished than to give him an opportunity of denying these statements it certainly justifies us in doing what we have done. In my judgment there is nothing more detrimental to the country, or to the interests of immigration, than to allow the people who come here to be misled. Is it a fact that these people were or were not misled ? Take their own statements for it. What are a few of their statements ? They declare that they were fold that they were coming to a country where they would have a railway at their door, and they find there is no railway within a hundred miles of them. Were they not misled in that particular ? This is their own public statement, made to the whole world, that they were told they were coming to a country where they would have the convenience of a railway at their door; they were going to be planted on land as rich as could be found anywhere in the World; they were going to enter into the enjoyment of homes prepared for them by Mr. Barr and the Canadian government; they were going to enjoy the comforts of life, teams were to be provided for them, the necessaries of life provided for them, some ploughing done. They were brought out in the spring of the year so that they might sow their grain and be ready for reaping it in a few months hence. Yet in all these respects they were the victims of a delusion and a snare-no soil broken up, no homes built, no teams provided, no railway for hundreds of miles of the locality where they were settled. Is it to be said that we are doing wrong in trying to set this matter right ? I ask the question again. Did the Rev. Mr. Barr mislead these people ? Who is the Rev. Mr. Barr ? He is one of the governments agents 1 Under whose aegis was he acting ? Under the aegis of the Department of the Interior,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: under the aegis of the government. Very naturally these poor immigrants would say that this man must be regarded as a respectable and a truthful man, otherwise he would not be employed by the Canadian government. Therefore they have a right to assume that the representations he made were correct. Now, I say the very fact that he was acting under the government, under Mr. Preston, the immigration agent, that he was acting with the knowledge and consent of the government, was calculated to mislead these people into relying on his statements. If these statements were correct, there could be no harm done, but if the statements were incorrect, and these people were induced to come to this country through misrepresentation, then I say this government must be held responsible, and the Minister of the Interior must share that responsibility.


Thomas Walter Scott: The colonists make no such claim.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The colonists declare they were deceived.


Thomas Walter Scott: By whom ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: By the Rev. Air. Barr, and the Rev. Mr. Barr was an agent of the government, and they had a right to assume that the government would not send out an agent there that would mislead them.


Thomas Walter Scott: I venture to say there is not one colonist who claims that Air. Barr was tire government agent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I saw a statement that appeared in one of the western papers, a statement made by one of the colonists, who deliberately claimed that they were deceived.


Thomas Walter Scott: Not by a government agent ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: By Mr. Barr, and I say Mr. Barr was a government agent, he was acting under the government, acting with the knowledge of the government, he got land set apart for that purpose from the government, he was given the duty of colonizing that land, and was given a rake-off that was going to him for his philanthropic work. So the hon. gentleman should restrain himself.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Air. Barr never got any land from the government in any shape or form.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Did he not get a portion of the land to be set apart to be colonized ?


The AIINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No.
Alt'. SPROULE. The minister himself stated that the department assigned a certain number of townships to him.


The AIINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I presume the hon. gentleman would like

639S
to know the facts. Tlie homestead law permits any person over eighteen years of age, and possessing certain qualifications, to take up a homestead, and that is done under the direction of the Minister of the Interior, and I consented to an arrangement whereby a certain number of quarter sections were hold in the names of persons whose names Mr. Barr had furnished to the department, and they were permitted to take up these homesteads.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. Minister of the Interior not admit that a certain number of sections were reserved and for what purpose ? For Barr's colonists ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: For homesteading.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: For homesteading by Barr's colonists.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: For homesteading.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What does the premier of the North-west Territories say ?
The Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships-
Who allowed him to reserve these townships ? Who had the right or power to give him authority to reserve them ? They would not have been reserved if the hon. Minister of the Interior had not reserved them, and if the authority had not gone out from the Department of the Interior, under the Land Act there could not have been a quarter section reserved anywhere.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is not disputed. I say the land w;i s not given to Mr. Barr. I say it was given for homesteading.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not hear what the hon. minister says.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I said that Mr. Barr did not get the land, the land was reserved for homesteaders who took it up and got it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The land was reserved for the homesteaders that Mr. Barr was to take there. Suppose I had gone up there as a homesteader, could I have taken up laud In that locality ? I was told that people wTent up into that locality and were not allowed to get a homestead there.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend is quite wrong because we did reserve a certain proportion of homesteads for miscellaneous settlers who might go to that locality. We reserved one-quarter section because we knew certain persons might go in there, and being of a somewhat turbulent nature, like my hon. friend, they might desire to make trouble if they could not get land there.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that not an admission that there was a reservation made for Mr. Barr ? You reserved out of the reservation for Mr. Barr a certain proportion for the public. The rest of the reservation was for Mr. Barr, who is going in there with tlie authority of the government. What did Mr. Haultain say :
The Dominion government, by allowing Mr. Barr to reserve a certain number of townships had to that extent recognized the scheme.
They recognized the scheme by their own act in reserving that land for Sir. Barr, and they enabled Mr. Barr to mislead the colony and to deceive the people who came out, for the purpose of making the rake-off that he got out of it. What are the statements that these people make ? They say that Mr. Ban- told them that each man must provide himself with a tent or he would provide it, for which he would make a charge of $10. That was not part of the contract entered into with the party when they left England. They rebelled against that lie-cause it was said that these tents would cost them $500, whereas they were to be provided by Barr. Was that statement correct or incorrect ? If that statement was incorrect, and if these colonists were misled to that extent, then the hon. Minister of the Interior should be thankful for having the matter called to his attention so as to give them an opportunity of setting the matter right, of clearing the suspicion that attaches to his department in connection with the transaction, and of making the responsibility rest where it should rest.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If my hon. friend will permit me, hon. gentlemen have my most profound gratitude.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Well, I think there will be more than the hon. gentleman who will be grateful for what has been done here to-day. The poor deceived Barr colonists will be grateful for it, because they will know that somebody has to account for the nefarious transactions that were carried on and under the aegis of the government when they were misled into coming from their homes thousands of miles to settle here. What object had Barr in view which induced him to prosecute this pilanthropic work ? Was it pure philanthropy ? Because he was a minister of the gospel, one would naturally suppose that it was, but the facts that were brought to light afterwards showed that it was not pure philanthropy, that there was a good deal of selfishness in it, and that it was the profits that were being looked for. Who were interested in these profits ? I was wondering in reading over the statement made by Mr. Preston, that it is customary to allow seven shillings per head for these men, although the hon. minister says Barr is not going to be allowed anything, whether there was any party outside of Barr receiving a portion of the prospective rake-off. That is a question

which the hon. minister is hound to set at rest by a proper inquiry. If those under his authority are implicated in it, ail the worse, and the sooner it is known, the better. It is evident that Barr understood that ' he was to receive that amount and that he would receive emoluments from other sources ; otherwise he would not have acted as he did.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
House in committee oil Bill (No. 135) to incorporate the Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia Railway Company.-Mr. Logan.
Hon. Mr. COSTIGAN.: Mr. Chairman, before you proceed with this Bill, I wish to state with respect to the amendment of which I gave the necessary notice and which appears upon the Order paper, that I may not find it necessary to move it. I have no objection to the Bill going on, as I understand there has been an agreement come to by which the promoters of this Bill will move an amendment that will satisfy the Quebec and New Brunswick Railway Company. Therefore, with the consent of the House the Bill may proceed, and that amendment can be moved at the end of clause 7. With that understanding I have no objection to the Bill going on.
On section 7,


Mr. LOGAN.: In accordance with the agreement referred to, I beg to move:
Provided always that the location of the line of railway to be built by the company hereby incorporated shall not at any point be nearer than five miles from the line of railway now or hereafter built or located by the Quebec and New Brunswick Railway Company except with the consent of the latter company or of the Governor General in Council.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, .and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 214) for the relief of Florence Lee Gray.-Mr. Scott.
Bill (No. 127) to confer on the commissioner of patents certain powers for the relief of George M. Depew.-Mr. McCarthy.
Bill (Not 203) respecting the Toronto. Hamilton and Buffalo Railway Company.- Mr. Calvert.	,

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed debate ou the motion of Hon. Mr. Fielding for the House to go into Committee of Supply.
['I am not in a position to speak for that Bill, but I think not.']
Thomas Simpson Sproule: When you left the Chair at six o'clock, Mr. Speaker, I was asking the question: What object had the Rev. Mr. Barr in view of taking up this apparently philanthropic work ? The fact that heretofore he had been .a minister of the gospel would naturally suggest to one's mind his desire to do good to humanity, and from the promptings of a generous and Christian nature he might have been induced to embark upon such an enterprise for the good of his fellowman without any expectation of a worldly return to himself. Had that been the case one would have been reluctant to believe many of the unfavourable accounts that have been given of Mr. Barr's operations during the time he -was bringing these people to the country; but if we examine into it to ascertain whether he might not have been prompted by some selfishly lucrative object, I think we will come to the eonclnsion that unless there was a profit somewhere or other he would not have engaged in the enterprise. Now, from whom was lie likely to receive the profit, if profit he expected. We are told that he got $6 a head for the immigrants as commission from the steamship company, and if he had nothing more than that it would give him S12.000 ou two thousand people, which in itself would be a very substantial salary for a year's operations. It may be said that the Rev. Mr. Barr was obliged to undergo very large expense. I claim that this cannot be because so far as the emigration part of it was concerned, it was practically done by the chief emigration agent in England. W. T. R. Preston. Although Mr. Barr gathered up this large crowd, he was not under great expense while doing so. Now, if the surmise of W. T. R. Preston he correct, that Mr. Barr was to get seven shillings each for the immigrants, and I have no doubt that the understanding come to between him and Preston was to that effect, then he would realize $3,500 from that source and that would give him $15,500. That would be a pretty comfortable return for a year's operations. But in addition to that we are told that Mr. Barr compelled these poor people to buy tents from him for which he charged $10 apiece. The minister of the Interior told us that this colony was taken in hand by the Emigration Department from the time they were gathered together in England until they were lauded at their destination in the North-west. The expenses in this connection were borne by the Canadian government and not by Mr. Barr. It is said that Mr. Barr purchased these tents for less than $5, and. therefore, supposing that they bought 1.000 tents, he had a clear rake-off of $5 apiece, or $5,000


Thomas Simpson Sproule: in all. Therefore, he must have been in $20,500 for bis business operations for the year. This was a pretty good compensation to him for the work he was supposed to have undertaken for the sake of philanthropy. When we find a minister of the gospel abandoning his religious calling and taking up a work of this kind for an apparently philanthrophic motive, and when we find that there is a profit coming out of the business, we will have to seek for some other real aim on his part than the humanitarian.


Thomas Walter Scott: He says that he is out of pocket $10,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There were a great many statements made by the Rev. Mr. Barr which were declared by those colonists to be absolutely untrue. How do we know whether this is true or false ? But we do know that he got six dollars a head from the steamship companies, which was $12,000, and that there was some understanding between him and Sir. Preston that he was to get some kind of rake-off from the department.


Thomas Walter Scott: Did he get it ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not saying whether he got it or not. The Slinister of the Interior denies that he got it. But there was an understanding that he was to get something from that source, whether he got it or not. Then, if it be a fact, as it was publicly stated by .one of the Barr colonists, that he compelled them to buy a thousand tents at ten dollars apiece, which could be purchased anywhere at five dollars apiece, he made something out of that. These statements, so far as 1 know, have not been successfully contradicted by Mr. Barr, and, therefore, I have a. right to assume that there must be some truth in them. So that it is quite clear that it was not on account of his philanthropy that this gentleman took up this work. I am afraid we are obliged to conclude that it was the mercenary nature lie possesses, the disposition to make . money, the love of filthy lucre, the almighty dollar, and the broad acre, that induced him to go into this scheme. There may be some other sources from which he was to receive returns that we know nothing about. The government tell us tliat they reserved a certain number of sections of this land. For what purpose ? Was it to be sold to Mr. Barr after he colonized the district ? What arrangement had he with- the Canadian Pacific Railway Company ? I have no doubt that he was quite sharp enough as a business man to make as good a bargain with the railway company as he made with the government. How do we know that he had not an understanding with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to purchase land from them at $3 an acre ? If he planted these colonists on the odd-numbered sec-201
tions, the value of this other land would be enhanced, and would rapidly run up to $5 an acre. Very likely he would have the extra profits resulting from that. Then he may have purchased other sections from the government, either directly or through his friends. I have no doubt that if a careful inquiry were made, we would find other sources besides those which we know about, whereby the Rev. Mr. Barr expected to make large sums of money; because lie seems to be exactly that kind of character -a man who has abandoned his religious calling and gone into this business under the guise of philanthropy and sympathy for the down-trodden, with the deliberate purpose of deceiving the people. I say that we may reasonably come to the conclusion that there are other bad features of his conduct that have not been brought to light, and that can only be ascertained by an inquiry. Whether that inquiry should be by commission or otherwise I am not prepared to say ; but I agree with Mr. Haultain that the matter is too glaringly suspicious and irregular to be allowed to pass over in silence ; and the Department of the Interior must lie under the odium that attaches to their connection with the transaction unless they clear it up in some way or other.
The next question to ask, the answer to which would be interesting if we could ascertain it, is, who were his associates ? I have no doubt that practically the Rev. Mr. Barr was only a stool pigeon. There are many transactions in which there are silent and sleeping partners, who share in the profits and cover up their tracks as best they can ; and it would be interesting to know whether the Rev. Mr. Barr had any associates, or whether he got all the profits himself. How much did he make out of this transaction ? To what extent was he supported in it by the Minister of the Interior and the Immigration Department ? We do know this, that these 2,000 immigrants, whom the Minister of the Interior tells us were brought by Mr. Barr, and the bringing of whom the government had nothing to do with, were counted among the 120,000 immigrants the government boasts of having brought to the country during the last year, at a cost of $560,000. The government will take credit to themselves for bringing these 2,000 people out. It was said by the Minister of the Interior that the Barr colonists were every one satisfied. Where are they to-day ? Are they on their colony ? If they were satisfied in every particular, would you not expect to find them there ? They left England to go there. They believed that was to be their future home, where they would live for the^ remainder of their days ; but some of them did not survey the promised land from Pisgnh's top. Where are they to-day? Some of them. I am told, folded up their tents in the night, like the Egyptians, and left the country. You will find many of



Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: Before you leave the Chair, Sir, I wish to draw the attention of the government to an item which appeared in the speech from the Throne :
The great influx of population into our Northwestern territories and the very large additional areas of fertile land which are being brought under cultivation combine to further press upon us the need for increased transportation facilities for the forwarding of our grain and other products to the markets of the world, through Canadian channels. The whole question of transportation and terminal facilities continues to occupy much attention, and my government will immediately appoint a commission of experienced men to report on the subject.

It is about eighteen weeks ago since that statement was put in the mouth of His Excellency by the government, and notwithstanding the reports throughout the country that ail arrangement has been made with certain parties for the purpose of building railways into the North-west Territories and tlie statement by the right lion, the First Minister that a commission had been appointed to look into the question of transportation facilities, this House has not vet been informed as to the policy of the government with reference to the first matter and as to the personnel of the commission to inquire into transportation facilities. The organs supporting the government have published what they say is the policy of the government on the question of building railways into the North-west. On reading that publication, I expected that the government would in a day or two have announced its policy, and I would ask whether the hon. gentleman who is now leading the House is prepared to state what that policy is ? If he is not prepared to do so, when may we expect a declaration on behalf of the government, as it is certainly high time they took the country into their confidence ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon Sir William Muloclc).: No objection whatever can be taken to the inquiry of my hon. friend with regard to the very important questions to which he has referred. Unfortunately, there has been a difficulty in obtaining commissioners such as the country would desire. The position of commissioner was offered to a gentleman of great experience, and for a considerable length of time he was unable to give an answer. It was deemed so important that his services, if possible, should be secured, that no other arrangement was made to secure some one in his place, the hope being entertained that sooner or later he would be able to accept the office. Within a very short time he has written to the minister expressing liis doubt as to tbo ability to procood at piesent, and has put us in the position of either having to make another appointment or wait a little longer to see if he will accept. I am sure that the hon. gentleman would be the last one to wish that the couu-try should lose, if it is at all possible to secure them, the services of Sir William Van Horne in this matter. I have not had, within the last few days, any conversation with my hon. colleague the Minister of Public Works, but will bring the matter to his attention, and perhaps on Monday we will be able to speak more definitely 'regarding the choice of commissioners.


John Graham Haggart: And what reply can the hon. gentleman make to the question I put regarding the policy of the government in the matter of furnishing transportation facilities to the North-west ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Does tlie hon. gentleman refer to the railway
201$
transportation facilities ? I understood him to refer first to the commission-


John Graham Haggart: I referred to both.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: With regard to. the latter question, that is a matter on which the premier will have to make an announcement, and he is not present.


John Graham Haggart: We hope it will be soon.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I have no doubt it will be soon. If we used the form which was so much used in other days, we would promise it for to-morrow.


John Graham Haggart: ' At the next sitting of the House.'


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Not quite at the next sitting, but in a few days.


VENTILATION OF CHAMBER.
Mr. GEO. TAYLOR (South Leeds).: I regret that the hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) is not in his place, three or four weeks ago, when this chamber was very warm, as it is to-night, I suggested that the chamber should be ventilated as it was in former years when we had a summer session, by opening these windows. If you will look at the thermometer to your right, Mr. Speaker, you will see that it stands at 82 degrees,' but if you go into No. 10, No. 0 or any other part of the House you will find the temperature not above 75 degrees. Why is that ? Simply because we are not getting a mouthful of fresh air from the outside. We have now been here for four mouths and the prospects are that we shall be here for many weeks yet, owing purely to-


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Obstruction.


George Taylor: Obstruction if you like -obstruction by lion, gentlemen who sit behind the minister V There has been no obstruction by hon. gentlemen on this side.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


George Taylor: This opposition have not criticised fully many of the estimates that have gone through. We are here to-day simply because immediately after the House rose last year the ministers left their offices and went hither and thither over this country and other countries, and, though they called tlie House together late ulis year, they were not ready with important Bills. We have been here for four months, and what has been done ? Nothing. And why ? Simply because not one of the ministers has been ready to go on with the business of the country. They are all at sixes and sevens among themselves. Where is the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Bill that should have been announced months ago ' Where is the Redistribution Bill *>


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Where is the hon. gentleman's leader ?


George Taylor: What has our leader got to do with it ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He is engaged in trying to settle the Redistribution Bill.


George Taylor: Why is it in committee at this late date ? Our leader was ready to meet hon. gentlemen opposite at any time. But no committee was appointed for a long time, and when it was appointed how soon was it called together ? The delay is not due to the leader of the opposition or to gentlemen associated witli him, hut it is due to the dilatoriness of hon. gentlemen opposite. It has been the same with every measure in the hands of the ministers. Though we have been here four months, they are coming down day after day with important measures that ought to have been introduced at the opening of the session. It is practically cruelty to animals to keep members in this chamber at this date with no ventilation. I hope the ministers will have a consultation among themselves, and see if something cannot be done to improve the ventilation of this chamber. The engineer tells the Minister of Public Works that if these windows are opened the fans are no good. There are a couple of fans in No. 10, and they have the effect of keeping lion, gentlemen opposite cool. But here in the chamber we have no ventilation and in No. 0 we have no fans to keep us cool. We are in a sweat-box here. But we can stand the sweat-box as long as hon. gentlemen opposite can. Why, the ministers will not come into this chamber themselves. One or two of them told me that they would not come in to-night.


Haughton Lennox: It is made too hot for them.


George Taylor: It is a crying shame that we have been kept here for four months and practically no business done, owing to the delay caused by a government that are not ready with their measures, everything at sixes and sevens, everything drifting as may, and nobody to steer the ship of state. If they could do nothing better, the government might propose to adjourn for a couple of months until the hot weather is over, then call us together again and finish up legislation. By that time, they might agree among themselves what measure they will bung down and push through. They can put through any measure they please because they have a following behind them that is strong enough to enable them to have their own way. This faithful opposition is doing its duty in criticising rascalities and extravagances of this government. But we do not offer criticism that the acts of the government would fully justify. We should be here for another four months if we did


George Taylor: ' our full duty in exposing the doings of this government. And wre will do our duty before we go home. If they have no consideration for us, they should have some consideration for their own supporters and give us a cooler chamber, and this can easily be done simply by opening the windows. I hope the hon. gentleman who leads the House will talk to the Minister of Public Works and show him that in order to have a proper temperature here we must have fresh air from the outside.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Department o£ Indian Affairs-Ontario and Quebec-relief, medical attendance and medicines, Quebec, $4,480.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Hon. gentlemen will understand that the amount in the resolution as put from the Chair is one-fifth less than the amount in the printed estimates. This is due to the fact that one-fifth of each of these amounts has already been voted.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Perhaps it will facilitate the discussion it the chairman will read the amount as it is in the printed estimates, then, when the vote is to be passed, read the resolution.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How would that be ?
I am afraid you would get into an awkward mess. How could we reduce it by one-fifth by the resolution after we have passed these items already ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The resolution as it stands in the hands of the clerk is not the resolution which is in the estimates, but making allowance for the one-fifth difference it is all plain sailing. One-fifth of these estimates has been passed of the amount standing in the printed estimates, hut only four-fifths stand in the resolution in the clerk's hands.
Relief, medical attendance and medicines, Quebec, $1,600.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The committee will see that the total vote for Ontario and Quebec is the same as last year with the exception that there is a decrease of $1,080.


Mr. OSLER.: Would the minister tell us how that money is distributed ? After the discussion we had last night on the salaries of medical officers, I think we should he more careful to ascertain whether medical men are paid on the same system as the medical men in Brantford. I would like to know how much of this item is expended for salaries, and to whom the money is paid.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: To Dr. Jule Constantin, $500; to Dr. A. Simard. $50 ; to Dr. .T. A. Claveau. $'200 ; to Dr. F. W. McCartney, $80. The amount paid for relief is between $2,000 and $3,000.

Relief, medical attendance and medicines, Ontario, $2,000.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Give us the particulars of that.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The salaries paid to medical men in On-taria are :	Dr. J. W. McIntosh, $184; Dr.
J. A. Arthur, $75; Dr. J. A. McEwan, $300; Dr. G. H. Mitchell, $80.
Blankets and clothing, Ontario and Quebec, $500.	'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are bands that have no fund, and this small vote of $500 is provided for supplying blankets and clothing whenever it is necessary. Blankets are supplied under contract.
Schools. Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces, $44,890.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The number of day schools in Ontario is 71, industrial and boarding schools 6, aggregate number of pupils enrolled at the day schools 2,183, aggregate number of pupils enrolled at industrial schools 477, average attendance in day schools 1,043, average attendance at industrial schools 42C. Forty-three of the 71 day schools in Ontario are supported wholly or in part by legislative grant and the remainder from the funds of the bands that are interested. In Quebec the number of day schools is 17, aggregate number of pupils 782, average attendance 300. The whole cost is paid by legislative grant. In New Brunswick the number of day schools is six, aggregate number of pupils in attendance 143, and the average number in attendance 09. These are provided for by government grant. In Prince Edward Island there is one school, number of pupils 20, and average attendance 12.


George William Fowler: Where are these schools situated in the province of New Brunswick ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In New Brunswick the schools are as follows : Burnt Church, Big Cove, Eel ground, Kingsclear, St. Mary's, Tobique.


George William Fowler: Are these schools outside of the general school system of the province ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes.
Mr.	FOWLER.	And the teachers are
paid entirely from this fund ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes.


Edmund Boyd Osler: What principle is adopted in appointing the teachers to Indian schools?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
It is pretty hard to say there is any general principle applying to the whole province.


Edmund Boyd Osler: Generally, what qualification do the teachers require ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Generally speaking, an attempt is made to get teachers qualified under the laws of the province where they are to be employed, and they are appointed generally on the recommendation of the agent. It is impossible to carry out this principle in its entirety. There are many cases where it is impossible to get qualified teachers at the salaries paid or under the condition that they must go upon the reserve.


George William Fowler: Do you appoint Indians as teachers ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not generally. There are a few Indian teachers.


George William Fowler: What is the average cost of each of these New Brunswick schools '1


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are three chiefs. Some years ago, after a great deal of trouble, the department got a number of the Oka Indians to go to Gibson in the province of Ontario, but we have been unable to induce the remainder to go. The chief looks after them there and we pay him $50 a year. The same is true of the chief of the other band and also in the case of the St. Regis band we now pay the chief $50 a year.
Payment of the Robinson Treaty Indians, $16,806.


George William Fowler: What is this.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is a payment of $4 per head to the Indians under the Robinson treaty who surrendered their lands in the place where they originally lived.
Survey of Indian reserves, $500.


William Humphrey Bennett: I draw the attention of the minister to the fact that no policy lias yet been settled upon in reference to the sales of the islands lying south of Moose Deer Point on the Georgian bay. There are hundreds of islands there and they are anxiously sought for by Canadians and Americans who desire to build summer residences. It is admitted that the islands north of Moose Deer Point are under the control of the Ontario government, but the title to those south of that point has been in dispute. I would like to ask the minister whether any arrangement has been come to with the province of Ontario as to the ownership of these islands. If such an arrangement has been arrived at I would impress upon the minister that at a very early date he should sell these islands, and that the sale should be by public auction

and not by private tender. If the sale were conducted at Midland or Penetanguishene, to which places there are excellent railway facilities, very considerable prices could be secured at public auction.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Shortly after I took office I caused a survey to be made of these islands. I was proceeding to take the necessary steps to have them sold when the Ontario government protested on the ground that the islands south of Moose Deer point belonged to them. We are fairly well satisfied that they belong to the Indian Department in trust for the Indians, but that can only be settled by an appeal to the courts. I have discussed the question a number of times with the representatives of Ontario, but as there are a great many questions unsettled between that province and the Dominion it is difficult to get any one question re-, ferred for settlement without all the rest. Two years ago I had the whole subject of dispute carefully investigated by two very capable officers of the department who made a confidential report. I am desirous of having these questions in dispute referred to a joint commission. The Ontario government do not oppose any serious objection to a joint commission, but we have not as yet been able to come to an agreement. I appreciate what my hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) said, that whereas some years ago there was no large demand for these islands it may now be desirable that they should be placed upon the market. I hope to have these matters in dispute settled as soon ns possible.


William Humphrey Bennett: I think perhaps the province of Ontario and this government could come to an arrangement by which the islands might be sold and the proceeds credited to the Indian fund, and if it were afterwards held that the province of Ontario was entitled to the money it could be recouped. Campers now go on these islands and fires spread, and the islands are rapidly deteriorating from the aesthetic point of view which makes them less desirable for summer residences. If any sale does take place I impress upon the minister to have it by public auction and not by tender.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am indisposed to think that an arrangement could be made for the sale of the islands and the money afterwards applied as may be decided upon by competent authority. I have not pressed an arrangement of that kind because, although occasionally we do have inquiries, there was nothing before me that indicated any special demands for these islands. I note what the hon. gentleman says about selling them by auction. I may say that the experience of the department has not been altogether to the effect that sales by auction were more satisfactory than sales by tender, but I will | give the suggestion of the hon. member'


William Humphrey Bennett: (Mr. Bennett) due consideration before anything is done.


William Humphrey Bennett: I hope an arrangement may be come to soon because if a sale is held by auction during the coming fall I think considerable purchases would be made and the purchasers could go on with the erection of their residences in the winter or early spring. May I ask the minister what islands if any have been disposed of during the past year, below Moose Deer point ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: At this moment I cannot say exactly. My hon. friend will remember that an application was made for two islands, which were sold. To the best of my recollection some two or three others were sold, and they were sold after we had received letters from the Crown Lands Department of the province of Ontario, saying that there was no objection to the sale, we agreeing on our part to hold the money until it should be decided later how it should be disposed of.


Mr. VROOMAN.: I would like to bring to the notice of the minister a case that occurred in my own constituency. A small island in Pigeon lake was sold by Mr. Boyd, a wealthy man, to a poor man, who paid for the island and went on it and built n house. Some time afterwards Mr. Boyd found that he did not own the island, and paid the money baek. The man was very desirous of getting a title to the island, and referred the matter to the department here ; but the department replied that no title could be given to him because the island belonged to the Indians. In view of the fact that these islands, according to this discussion, can be disposed of, I do not see why this poor man cannot get a remedy.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The island referred to by the hon. gentleman consists of Indian lands that have not been surrendered. The department has no authority to sell any islands that have not been surrendered by the Indian band. After the surrender is executed we hold the land in trust and sell it. The only thing we could do would be to apply to the baud for a surrender of that particular island. Whenever it is surrendered, the department will endeavour to protect the right of this man, and see that no one else gets it.


Adam Edward Vrooman: It will be a great satisfaction to this man if he receives that information from the department.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am told by the deputy that that is the position the department has taken.


Mr. CLANCY.: I wish to call the minister's attention to a matter that came to my notice recently in connection with the Walpole island band. The case is shortly this :	A man named Johnston, some ten
years ago adopted a young Indian boy seven

years of age. Tlie father of the boy was then dead ; his mother is still a widow. The child was adopted, not under any writing, hut by an agreement with the mother. The boy's name is Sand. He was kept until last April or May, between nine and ten years, when he was turned out. Even a portion of his clothing was retained by this man Johnston or his wife. During that whole period the child has been sent little or no time to school, and has been kept all the time at work. He is now sixteen years of age, and has been turned adrift without either schooling or any other provision being made for him. Johnston also drew the boy's annuity during the period he was with him, which, so far as I can find out, was about $3.50 a year. X took some pains to question the mother as to whether she had ever assented to this. She said she had never assented to it, that Johnston had managed, by giving the child as one of his own household, to receive the annuity. I made further inquiry as to whether the boy had disobeyed or whether there had been some quarrel or difference to cause the boy to be turned out. The mother informed me that the boy had gone to a tea meeting, and when he returned home, he found the door locked against him, they would not let him in, and he remained out all night. She tells me that an application was made to the department to have an inquiry, and that the agent, Mr. McDougail, had informed her that there would be no inquiry into the matter. He accepted the statement of Johnston, who is the wealthiest Indian on the island, who has acquired a good deal of property, and is quite responsible in that way. If the facts are as I have stated, it is certainly a very aggravated case. The boy's mother informs me that if there is an investigation, she is prepared to make these statements good. I would suggest that the investigation be held by some other person than the Indian agent. I do not care to give my reasons for saying that, nor do I want it understood that it implies any reflection.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The ordinary course in such a case would be for the inspector to be instructed to investigate and report upon his first visit to the reserve. If I understand my hon. friend aright, the matter was referred to the agent, and he declined to do anything. We will write to the agent and obtain a statement of the facts, and, if on that statement nothing can be done, we will have the inspector look into the case on his first visit to the reserve. The hon. gentleman will see that it is pretty difficult to tell the Indian to take this boy back unless he is willing to do it. The grievance is obvious but the remedy is not quite so obvious. Possibly, with the influence of the inspector, something may be done.


James Clancy: Is it not possible that this man, who failed to carry out the agreement,
could be compelled to make some restitution ? It may be difficult to make him take the boy back.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Such a contract would have no legal validity. But the circumstances may justify the department in withholding this man's annuity, if he be entitled to one, until we secure the amount he collected in the shape of the boy's annuity, so that a refund would be secured.


James Clancy: There might be some doubt about the validity of the contract, but in cases of that kind arising outside of Indians it is obviously clear that where a child is kept and it is proved that there was even a verbal arrangement, and also proved that the child was deprived of schooling, there would be not only an equitable but possibly a legal claim against the person who adopted the child.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Between white people, such a verbal arrangement would have no legal effect. The agreement would have to be embodied in a formal legal instrument, properly executed.


James Clancy: Will the hon. gentleman have the matter investigated right away ? There has already been correspondence with the department, and I think that the correspondence has been principally the agent's view of the case. I do not care to say more than I have said, but I think that an investigation ought to take place before some one other than the agent.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My deputy tells me that the inspector looked into the matter a short time ago. I will have the correspondence 'brought before me and give instructions to the inspector to investigate and report.


Adam Carr Bell: What Indian schools are there in Nova Scotia ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are eleven days schools. The average attendance is eighty-nine. They are all-supported by government grant. There is one at Bear river, county- of Digby, $300 ; one at Eskasoni, $300 ; Cape Breton, $200 ; one at Sydney, C.B. ; Middle river, Victoria, $200 ; New Germany-, $300 ; Queen's county. $300 ; Salmon river, Richmond, $250 ; Whycocomagh, Inverness, $200 ; Shu-benacadie, Hants, $300 ; Indian Cove, Pic-tou, $300 ; Milbrook, Colchester, $250.


Adam Carr Bell: Are all the expenses paid by the department ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, including the teachers salaries.


Adam Carr Bell: And the buildings ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no general rule with regard to the buildings. We have from time to time voted money for buildings.


Mr. KAULBAOH.: What is the salary for the school at New Germany ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Indian land management fund, $14,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The history of the Indian fund is very complicated. Some years ago it was thought that the expenditure had impaired some of the funds, which were trust funds held for certain services. One of the funds impaired was the Indian Land Management Fund. The result of the inquiry some years ago showed the total amount by which the fund has been impaired, and an Order in Council was passed 'by the late government providing that an annual payment of $14,000 should be voted for a number of years for the purpose of recouping the fund and putting it back into the position into which it was and ought to be. When the plan of gradual restitution of this fund was put into operation, the capital was as follows.
J.uly 1, 1892	$ 72,788
"	1902	 177,171
So that the fund has increased during the ten years by $104,000.
This fund, the Indian land management fund, would be restored in about twenty years, by an annual payment of about $14,000, to the position in which it originally stood. Hon. gentlemen understand that the fund originally arose from percentages on the sales of Indian property. It came into the hands of the government as a trust fund. But, through non-observance of the rule that only the interest should be expended, the department impaired the fund.
To provide lor the erection ol lockup at St. Regis, $500.


James Clancy: I see that a similar amount to this was voted last year.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, but we did not build the lock-up. We have had a good deal of difficulty on this reserve, as the hon. gentleman knows. Two years ago the difficulty became quite serious. The St. Regis Indians are of a somewhat turbulent character, and they give the department a good deal of trouble. A little over a year ago, some of the Indians undertook to take possession of islands in the St. Lawrence which had been leased a long time ago, it is true, but on investigation I found that the leases were sound, and the parties had gone' into possession-and we had to take legal proceedings and notified them that if they went any further we would proceed against them very seriously. Our officer said that we ought to have a lock-up on the reserve and some changes in the administration. I am going about the changes slowly. The state of feeling now is much better, and I shall probably carry out my intention with regard to the lock-up this year. I did not think it prudent to do so last year. If the lock-up had been built Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
so soon after the other proceedings, the exasperation of these people might have led to some trouble. Having asserted the law, so far as the islands were concerned, I thought I had done enough and had better let the lock-up stand until this year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was there no lock-up there before ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No ; it was talked about, but never built.
General legal expenses, $3,500.


Mr. BLAIN.: We would like some explanation as to this.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is to cover the expense of defending Indians when they are accused of criminal offences. In all very serious cases, where we have to employ counsel, this is done through the Justice Department, and, of course, we have to pay.


Richard Blain: To whom were the amounts paid last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: About $1,000 was paid, mainly in the defence of an Indian tried in Hull.


Richard Blain: What legal firm was it paid to ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 1 have not the name at hand, but I will get it a little later.


Richard Blain: May I ask for information with regard to items in the Auditor General's Report, at page J-163, moneys paid to E. Stewart, forestry inspector. Do I understand that Mr. E. Stewart is in the hon. minister's department ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It must be the same man-yes.


Richard Blain: Is he paid a stated salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes ; by the Interior Department-not by the Indian Department. I am told by the officers of the department that Mr. Stewart was instructed to make certain valuations for the Indian Department, being the officer most capable for doing it that we had available at the time, and this money was paid for expenses.
- Mr. BLAIN. These payments include : Valuing White Fish river reserve, $70.55 ; valuing White Fish island, $69.35.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am assured by the officers of the department that Mr. Stewart received nothing but travelling expenses. Of course, as Mr. Stewart is in the civil service and receives a regular salary-he is paid $2,500 a year- it would be illegal for any branch of the government to pay him anything further as salary or fees. So the hon. gentleman will see that it is quite impossible that he should have been paid anything except his expenses.

641S


Richard Blain: Tliis gentleman Is receiving a very large salary In tlie lion, minister's department. The hon. minister tells us that the payment to which I have just called attention is for travelling expenses. It does not so appear in the Auditor General's Report. Would the hon. minister tell us where, in the Auditor General's Report, a detailed statement of these expenses is to be found 7 This gentleman is receiving a very large salary of $2,500


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: The amount of his salary had nothing to do with his expenses. He gets a salary for liis entire time. The Indian Department, requiring certain reserves to be valued, I presume got authority that Hr. Stewart should be directed to do the work. Of course, he could not charge his expenses to the Interior Department, for they had nothing to do with it. We practically took his time from the Interior Department, got him to do the work and paid his expenses. The hon. gentleman will see that there is more than one item :
E. Stewart, forestry inspector, Interior Department, travelling expenses : arbitration Gros Cap reserve, $84.60 ; valuing White Pish River reserve, $70.55 ; valuing White Fish Island, $69.35, $224.50.
These are three distinct services.
Nova Scotia-relief and seed grain for Indians, $2,700.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that item put in every year because you are sure you will need it, or only because you want to have it available ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: The amount expended in 1901-2 was $2,699. A large proportion of the Indians have to be given some small supply, which is however cut down to the lowest possible notch. Those who have land ready for cultivation are given a small quantity of seed.


Richard Blain: Why is the minister asking for $3,500 for legal expenses, when the amount expended last year was only $1,000 ? Does he anticipate some further trouble ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The vote for legal expenses is merely a general estimate. When we have three or four cases in the course of a year, we have to pay the expenses out of something, and if we'do not have this vote we will not have the money. This is a maximum estimate. If we do not need the money we do not expend it. The amount is arrived at by the experience of the department in past years.


Richard Blain: How much has been expended each year for the last four or five years ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I have no way of getting at the exact amounts. The reason we ask for this vote
is because last year the department was embarrassed in finding itself liable to pay these amounts, and being obliged to hold over the accounts until a vote could be obtained. I always take a vote every year for $1,000; sometimes we do not use it, and sometimes we spend it all. It is a vote for protection purposes for the defence of the Indians. That is done under the Department of Justice, who employ counsel, and decide whether it is a proper case in which to employ counsel. That department taxes the bill of costs, certifies to the correctness of the amount and it is paid.


Richard Blain: I understood the minister to say that there was only one case last year. Would he give us the particulars of that case ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The case was that of an Indian tried at Hull for murder. I am told that the Bill of the lawyers employed was taxed in the usual way by the Department of Justice.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much was the amount of the bill ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
About $1,000. The current year's account does not appear in the Auditor General's Report yet.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does that include the witnesses fees and everything else ?
The	MINISTER	OP	THE	INTERIOR.
All the expenses were about $1,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much of that would be for solicitors' fees and how much for the other disbursements ?
The	MINISTER	OP	THE	INTERIOR.
I have not got the figures here. But if the hon. gentleman desires to have that information I will get it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to see that.


The MINISTER OP JUSTICE.: This is the case of an Indian named Waby who killed one McCabe up near the headwaters of the Ottawa river.	The	Indian .was
brought down here to Hull to be tried, and while he was here, the court-house was burned, and he was removed to Montreal, but brought back again to be tried. A great number of the witnesses had to be brought from the upper waters of the Ottawa river, which necessitated a large expenditure. This case was one that attracted a good deal of attention, Mr. McCabe being a man of some importance in the district in connection with the fur trading business, and the case was a -hard fought case. The crown was under obligation to defend this man. The expense was somewhat large by reason of the fact that in the province of Quebec they had a mixed jury, that is to say, one-lialf English and one-half French. We had to have two counsel also, one French and one English, and an interpreter. These costs were all fixed in the regular way. I

think the gentlemen who defended this prisoner were allowed $25 a day during the course of the trial. The hill was taxed according to the practice that has prevailed in the Department of Justice for many years, and I am safe in saying that all the taxation that has been done-I do not claim any credit for it myself, because that is something I never interfere with-it is done by the officials of the department, and the hoii. gentleman will see by referring to the bill that nothing was allowed except that to which the counsel are honestly entitled. The whole taxation was done by Mr. Gisborne, and done with the greatest possible care.


William Humphrey Bennett: Did I understand that the counsel were only allowed $25 each ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Each of them $25 a day.


William Humphrey Bennett: How much was the total disbursement altogether for counsel and witness fees ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: My hou. friend will admit that it is absolutely impossible to bear in mind the details of an account of that description. This occurred at least a year and a half ago.


William Humphrey Bennett: I assume the hon. minister has the figures showing what it cost up to date.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The Bill comes to us in detail, it is taxed in the Department of Justice and then sent back for payment to the Indian Department. The Bill can be produced here.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We will give the exact details if the hon. gentleman desires it.


William Humphrey Bennett: Who are the counsel ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Mr. Devlin, of Hull, was one, and Mr. Decarie, of Montreal, was another.


William Humphrey Bennett: Could Mr-. Devlin not speak both English and French ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think there are about three or four counsel in Quebec who will undertake to conduct trials in English and French.
Mr. BwVIN. How much was voted for this service last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The same amount.


Richard Blain: The hon. minister should be able to give us the information as to how much has been expended on legal services by the department during the last five years.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I could not give it to the hon. gentleman, but I will have the information looked up.


Richard Blain: Last year there was an exceptional trial and the item was about


Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.: $1,000. I am not complaining about that, but I think it is only fair to the committee, when the hon. gentleman is asking for a vote of $3,500 and when last year there was only $1,000 expended and that an exceptional expenditure, that the hon. gentleman should give us some further explanation. In only one year during the last six years has $1,000 been expended. There is a general complaint that outside of this department large expenses are paid for legal services. It seems to me that it would be better to vote only double the amount expended last year rather than to vote $3,500.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The amount voted does not make the least difference in the amount that the department has to pay. Cases come before me constantly and the Department of Justice has to decide in each of these whether it is a proper case to defend or not. If it is a proper case for the department to defend, the determination to defend it is not based on the fact as to whether we have a vote or as to whether we have not. After it is decided to defend the case the Department of Justice designates the lawyer to take charge of it and the next step is that the Department of Justice certifies the Bill and sends it to us to pay. If we have not sufficient money to pay it we would have to ask for a supplementary vote. This is a mere estimate on the part of the officers of the department, and they have estimated it at what they believe to be a perfectly safe amount. If circumstances require us to pay this amount we will pay it, and if they do not of course the vote will lapse.
Mi'. BLAIN. It is not a usual practice to vote nearly three times as much as the average yearly expenditure has been. If hon. gentlemen did that in every department the estimates would be three times as much.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The vote might be $100 and we might only pay out $5.


Richard Blain: I understand that. The hon. minister might as well say that his department needs $1,000 because the expenditure has been $1,000. Yet, he comes down and asks for a vote of $3,500. Surely it has not been customary to pursue a policy of that kind. I admit this item is not a very large one, but it seems to me that some little mischief might creep into the department as a result of a vote of this kind.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish to ask some questions about the item of ' relief and seed grain, $2,700.' I did not hear that item called.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Holmes).: It was called several times.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 1 am sure the hou. Minister of the Interior will give the information.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR Last year we expended $2,099 and we are asking for practically the same amount this year. This expenditure was for relief, providing the actual necessaries of life, si me seed grain and a small amount has been paid out during the last two years for fertilizers.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does it not seem a little strange that you should include fertilizers in the item for relief, and seed grain ?
Medical attendance and medicines, $3,700.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand that this is a new item. Would the hon. minister tell us if they have a regular medical man, and if so, how much the department pay him ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This vote is $3,700. The expenditure for this service during the past three years has been as follows :
1899-	1900	$2,892	441900-	1901	
3,676	gg1901-	1902	
3,696	16The salaries	paid	to	the	physicians	wereas follows :	Dr.	C.	P.	Bisset,	Victoria	county, $125 ; Dr. Jacques, King's county, $50 ; Dr. Morse, Lunenburg, $50 ; Dr. Macaulay, Inverness, $75 ; Dr. Hugh N. MacDonald, Inverness, $75 ; Dr. D. McDonald, Victoria county, $325 ; Dr. McIntyre, Cape Breton county, $250 ; Dr. W. II. McDonald, Anti-gonish, $150; Dr. McLean, Hants, $150 ; Dr. McMillan, Pictou, $75 ; Dr. Marsh, Lunenburg, $75 ; Dr. Russell Withers, Annapolis, $50 ; Dr. Yorstou, Colchester, $150 ; Dr. Black, Hants, $50 ; Dr. Elkins, $60 ; Dr. Love, $150 ; Dr. Smith, $100. The variation in the amounts that are paid is accounted for by the fact that as nearly as possible they are paid for the amount of work that they do. There is a great deal of difficulty and there is constant correspondence between the department and these doctors in regard to salary. It is a very difficult service to carry on, but the attempt of the department is as far as possible to grade the salaries by the amount of work they have to do.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you pay them by the visit or by the year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We pay them by the year in each case. The officers of the department have based the amount upon the accounts which were rendered in former years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If there should be an epidemic of small-pox on a reserve would the medical officer only get his salary of $300 a year.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He gets the same salary right along. I have
in one or two cases allowed a certain amount extra to be paid when an epidemic of small-pox broke out.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does this salary include the supply of medicine as well.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.
Indians, Manitoba, North-west Territories, $841,921.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will make a general statement as to this vote. As to the annuities, they are payable to the Indians under treaty, and the amount only varies by the number of Indians. There is a vote for $7,949 for agricultural implements which is $4,000 less than last year. Each Indian agent makes up a detailed bill showing every particular item which lie requires, and sends it to the commissioner at Winnipeg, who sends it down here.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How are all these supplies purchased ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The purchases generally in the Indian Department are made by tender. We have printed schedules and we advertise it once a year, and let the contract. There are some few things that are purchased from dealers in the vicinity of the reserve, it is cheaper to pay the retail price there than to buy them here and ship them up. We ask a vote of $20,295 for live stock for the Indians. This vote is a little less than last year. I have increased that vote since I came to office considerably in pursuance of the policy of inducing what we regard as the more troublesome Indians to go into stock raising. The last report of the Indian Department shows that the results are very encouraging. We send pedigreed stock to the reserve, and my information is that about the best grade stock that can be found in the North-west Territories is to be found upon some of the Indian reserves as a result of the policy which was inaugurated by the late government and which I have extended as the late government intended to extend it if it was found to be successful. The Indians in the Calgary district, the Bloods, Piegans and Blackfeet, the most dangerous and difficult Indians to manage, have been induced to go into the cattle raising to a very considerable extent, and I think that in five or six years perhaps we shall be able to discontinue the practice of giving rations altogether as a result of the policy we are following in this respect.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How do you purchase this $20,000 worth of live stock?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We simply purchase from different breeders and dealers and pay the current price. The cattle have to pass inspection.


William Humphrey Bennett: How is the allotment made-per capita or according to the wants of the particular tribe ?


The MINISTER OE THE INTERIOR.: It is a sort of paternal arrangement. The difficulty in past years on a considerable number of the reserves has been to get the Indians to take the cattle on any terms and agree to look after them. As my hon. friend has said, they probably kill them and eat them in a short time. . We have been giving them cattle as fast as they manifest a disposition to look after them and take proper care of them. Some Indians go into wheat raising and others into cattle raising, and we endeavour to consult their habits in carrying out the policy of the department.


William Humphrey Bennett: I find on page J-15 of the Auditor General's Report that three of the largest amounts expended for live stock were on the Blackfoot, Blood and Piegan reserves. Are they all south of Calgary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They are all in the neighbourhood of Calgary.


William Humphrey Bennett: How is it that the grants for these three tribes were so large as compared with the others ? Two of them run to nearly $4,000 each, and the others to about $3,000.
The MINISTER OF THEi INTERIOR. It is only lately that we have been able to do anything with these reserves. They are large bands of Indians. I would like my hon. friend to look into the report in regard to them.


William Humphrey Bennett: I happened to be at Macleod last fall and I saw a number of these Indians in the town. They were selling hay. They certainly presented a much more civilized appearance than most of the Indians one sees in the west. From what I heard, they have a very desirable reserve for raising cattle; and It seemed odd that though cattle raising is being carried on more extensively in the neighbourhood of Macleod than in'any other part of the country they should be so far behind. They were Bloods and I think Blaekfeet. It seems odd that they should require such a very large expenditure, as compared with other reserves.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is only within the last few years that these Indians have been willing to take the cattle upon condition of looking after them. They are not yet iby any means making use of all the grazing privileges on their reserves. For instance, it is only lately that we have made arrangements with regard to the Piegan reserve, on condition of the Indians leasing a portion of the reserve for grazing purposes.


William Humphrey Bennett: Where are the Piegans?


Hon. Mr. SIPTON.: 


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Nine miles south-west of Macleod.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What do you do with the Indians who kill their cattle and eat them ? Do you punish them in any way ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is a matter of individual discretion on the part of the agent. You cannot apply any hard and fast rule. We believe it would not be wise to incur any disaffection on the part of the Blood Indians on that account; and the agent, in dealing with the matter, requires to bring to bear his knowledge of the Indian character and to take into account the circumstances of the case.


Mr.   SPROTJEE@: Did you supply the Sar-cee Indians with any cattle last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, they refused to take them.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I noticed one cow on the reserve, seven or eight miles west of Calgary; and if they took care of all their reserve stock as they did that cow, I do not believe it would be prudent to supply them.


William Humphrey Bennett: Are the supplies of tea and other groceries Which are distributed among the different tribes, bought by tender and public competition ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes. The supplies generally are advertised at the head office of the department under schedules. .


William Humphrey Bennett: I ask that question because I see that political friends of the government in Ottawa and Toronto alone seem to furnish the supplies.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I must say that the political friends of the government do not profit very much from the Indian supplies, because I do not think the prices could be cut any closer than they are. The schedules are known to the trade all over the country, and the competition is very close.


Richard Blain: Might I ask how the agricultural implements are purchased ? Is it by tender ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Most of them are purchased on the ground from agents. The number of implements purchased is comparatively small, so that it is very difficult to buy them in bulk. The prices are practically the same to all parties, because agricultural implements are sold on schedule prices.


William Humphrey Bennett: I see that $20,000 in round figures was paid for beef on the Blood agency last year. Were tenders called for that ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, that is all purchased by tender. This vote represents the general supplies we are

required to furnish the Indians, when they are paid their treaty money under the treaties on the various reserves. There are large quantities of bacon, beef, tea, flour, tobacco, ammunition and twine and a small quantity of medicine. Large quantities are purchased by tenders. The increase to the vote for schools is due to increased attendance. The vote for surveys is due to the fact that occasionally we have an Indian reserve surrendered, and we have to survey it and advertise it for sale by public tender. The increase in general expenses is due to a number of small items, and to some increases in salaries.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, but we had to purchase an engine for the grist-mill, Crooked Lake Reserve, as the old one was condemned by the government inspector.


Richard Blain: Has it always been the custom to supply building materials to the Indians ? I see some correspondence with the Auditor General on that point.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Not generally.


Richard Blain: Is this a new item entirely?'
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
It is not customary to furnish building material for the Indians' houses. I presume this is for the work in connection with the agency buildings.
Indians, British Columbia, $137,910.


George Taylor: We were to stop here.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No, item 189 is a small item, and we might as well pass it. It is only the salary and expenses of the inspector.
Indians, general, $10,200.


George Taylor: It is understood that the item regarding British Columbia will stand, and, if any hon.	gentleman	not present
wishes to ask questions about any other items, he will be at liberty to do so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: As to the inspector of Indian agencies, I see an estimate here for the salary of J. A. Macrae. I thought we were told that when Mr. Wadsworth was allowed to go, we were to do without an inspector of Indian agencies.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is only an inspector for the province of Ontario. Mr. Wadsworth was inspector for the North-west Territories, Mr. Macrae who has been in office for a great many years, was formerly in the North-west Territories, but was brought down here. He is one of the inspectors for the older provinces, and rngkes inspections from time to time, pays annuity money, and so on.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But I understood that when Mr. Wadsworth was allowed to go the hon. minister said that he would do away with that office. I am told that since then, instead of the office being done away with, there are two men doing the work that Mr. Wadsworth did, and that they are not' only paid salaries, but get amounts from other branches as well.
The MINISTER ' OF THE INTERIOR. Mr. Wadsworth was superannuated in connection with the general rearrangement of the work. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) is misinformed if he has been told that two men are doing the work this officer used to do. It is quite the other way-only part of one man's time is devoted to that work.
I have personal knowledge of the facts, and can speak of the efficiency of the service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to have this item stand, and the hon. gentleman bring me the information with regard to it.


George Taylor: It can be brought down on the British Columbia item, and allow it to be discussed then.
Some resolutions reported.


ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF
[Stage Direction]
THE HOUSE.	*
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved the adjournment of the House.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Before the House adjourns, I would ask the hon. minister who is leading the House at present if he would be good enough to tell us when the government hope to make its statement to the House regarding its railway policy. We see a good deal about it in the press. It seems to me it is baldly dealing fairly with the House if the government is not prepared to lay its policy before the House, that it should give it to the country through its own press. I think the hon. gentleman should be able to tell us that now. There must be some conclusion reached.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: As an old journalist, I would advise my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) not to place too much reliance upon statements in the press as regards matters of this kind. At present we are not in a position to say anything to the House, but if there was anything to say, I would anticipate that the Prime Minister would make a statement next week.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What business may we expect to take up next Monday ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There are several Bills and resolutions on the Order Paper to be dealt with, and, if we reach supply, we will go on with the estimates of the Minister of the Interior.


George Taylor: Private Bills will have to be dealt with ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


George Taylor: Is the Grand Trunk Railway Bill coming up ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am not in a position to speak for that Bill, but I think not.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 13, 1903.