1903-07-16

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called,
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: It is my duty to give to the House the explanations to which it is entitled concerning the resignation of my hon. friend the member for the city of St. John, N.B. (Hon. Mr. Blair), as member of the cabinet and Minister of Railways.
In view of the rapid development of the country, of the flood of immigration into the fertile section west of Lake Superior, of the industrial movement in the older provinces, the government have come to the conclusion that a new transcontinental railway, between the east and the west to the Pacific ocean, has become a necessity. To this view the hon. member has always expressed his assent, but a difference of opinion arose between him and his colleagues as to the mode of construction and operation.
No final plan has yet been adopted, though a basis has been reached for the construction of a line to be built and owned by the government through a commission, but to be operated by a company under special provisions to make it a common highway to all railway companies from Moncton to Winnipeg, and for the construction of a line to be built by a company with the assistance of the government from Winnipeg to the Pacific ocean at Port Simpson.
To this plan the hon. member has two objections :
1.	To the construction of that section of the above mentioned line lying between Moncton and Quebec, he being of the opinion that such a line would parallel the Intercolonial Railway, an opinion from which we entirely dissent.
2.	To the immediate construction of the section between Quebec and the Pacific ocean and to the suggested mode of construction.


Hon. Mr. FIELDING.: In consequence of this difference of opinion between his colleagues and himself, the hon. member, on the 10th instant, tendered his resignation to the Prime Minister. Conferences then took place between the Prime Minister, with the assistance of one of bis colleagues, and the hon. member, and finally, on the 14th, his resignation was accepted.
The Prime Minister, whilst expressing for himself and the other members of the administration his great regret at the severance from the cabinet of an able colleague, is happy to believe that the hon. member, upon all questions of public policy, except this one, is in accord with the government.


Hon. A. G. BLAIR (St. John City).: Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) having made the statement and explanation referring to my withdrawal from the cabinet it is my privilege, and I think it becomes my duty to make a statement as the retiring minister in my own behalf. I am not unaware, Mr. Speaker, that the step which I have taken is one of the gravest possible character. I regret as much as any gentleman on this side of the House can regret, the severing of the ties which have existed between myself and my colleagues since my entry into the administration. I can well realize that the effect of cabinet changes at this moment will not only tend to delay and protract the business of an already very prolonged session, but will occasion very much embarrassment to the party, and will be a source of anxiety to the Prime Minister himself, a thing which above all I would gladly avoid.
The step which I have taken, Sir, can only be justified in respect of my duty to my constituency; of my duty to the party; of my duty to this House and of my duty to the country, upon the clearest and plainest and strongest grounds. And, Sir, I think I will be in the judgment of every member of this House when I say, that such a course on my part must have been taken by impulsion of the gravest character. No' minister filling a distinguished position in the cabinet would hastily and lightly cast aside his position, the influence and the advantages which it legitimately carries with it, and all that that change implies.
For myself personally, I have endeavoured while I have filled this office to discharge its duties in a manner which would not only redound to my own individual credit, but which would be of benefit to the country as a whole. And, Sir, I have not spared time nor labour to achieve these results. Believe me, Mr. Speaker, the step which I have felt called upon to take, I have taken in no light or in no frivolous way. I have not acted in any spirit of caprice, although I find the statement generally made that I have. I have not acted because of any pique, nor for any small sized feeling of such a character. I have left the administration for reasons which I am bound to

state to the House, and which have to some extent been stated by the right lion. the Prime Minister. I trust, Sir, that those reasons, while they may not appeal to the judgment of every one, will at least enable my friends in whose good opinion I desire to stand well, my constituents whom I represent in this House, and my province which I have represented in this government ; I trust that when I state my reasons I will be able to satisfy them that whether I have erred or otherwise, I have at all events sought in this my action to do what I believed to be my duty.
No doubt, Mr. Speaker, speculation is very rife as to the causes which have impelled me to this action. I see it very widely stated in the public press that the fact that some of the members on this side of the House pressed and successfully carried amendments to the railway commission Bill was regarded by me as ail offence and was one of the predisposing causes creating dissatisfaction and discontent, and leading me to seriously consider the question of my resignation. I do not know by what standard these people would measure me; I do not know in what balance they would have me weighed, but I trust there is nobody who entertains such a contemptible opinion of me as to suppose that the action of these members in that regard would cause me any offence. When that Bill came before the House I thought it was treated fairly. I had no reason to complain, and until I saw the statement made with such confidence in the newspaper press of this country, I was not aware that I had entertained such a feeling or had been offended by the action of any one of the members of this House. Why, Sir, some of the clauses that were treated in that way in this House and upon which my view did not carry; some of these clauses were of a purely every day character, and while X was bound to have an opinion and while having that opinion 1 did not fail to express it, yet I am bound to acknowledge and I am free to say that there was no member in the House who would not be as well entitled to express a' sound judgment on these clauses as I myself was. I endeavoured while that Bill was going through the House in some two or three instances, to have hon. members * know and feel that so far as I could control the consideration of the question I regarded it as an open one, and I stated that if hon. members felt that I was wrong they might freely say so by their amendments and by their speeches. I therefore trust that none of my hon. friends who took that course will do me the injustice to believe that their action had the slightest impression on my mind. Another cause that has been assigned for my present action is that I had no assistance from my colleagues in the council in pushing that Bill through the committee. I dismiss that with a similar observation. I did not ask any of my
colleagues of the ministry to help me because I felt that not having studied the Bill as I had done they could not be so familiar with its contents and so well informed upon it as I was to meet the objections that were being made in the House. Had I asked any of them to do so, I want to say openly and publicly that there is no reason in the world so far as I know why they would not have cheerfully and readily come to my help.
Another statement which if possible has had a much wider circulation and which seems to have met with some acceptance in quarters that I would not have thought were likely to accept it; is the statement that I have long been considering the intention of resigning owing to rebuffs and continued ill-treatment received at the hands of my colleagues. Now, Sir, I want to say emphatically here that until the question of the Grand Trunk Pacific came up for consideration before council, the thought of resignation never entered into my mind. And if I had not seen the statement in the papers I would not have been informed as to the conditions which it is said prevailed in council, and as to the treatment I was receiving from my colleagues. Let me say that I know of no instance-and should my separation now prove to be a permanent separation-I am bound to say that I can acquit my late colleagues of any charge of that kind so far as I myself have any personal knowledge. I have heard the name of Mr. Sifton, the Minister of the Interior mentioned as having been caballing against me. and endeavouring to undermine me and my influence in the Cabinet. Well, if that be the case he has succeeded most admirably in concealing that from my knowledge at all events. I never had it in my mind that that gentleman's conduct towards me was such as has been represented. I do not know, nor do I suspect any member of the council from which I have just retired, of having treated me in any such manner. But If there was any evidence required as to the opinions which I held and as to my feeling towards the Minister of the Interior, I think I may at this moment appeal to the fact that when during his absence he was assailed in a manner which I thought was unfair, my voice was the first voice raised in his defence, feeble though my voice may have been. Now, Mr. Speaker, the sole and only cause which has led me to take this regrettable steji ; and I own it frankly to the House that it is regrettable to me as I know that it must be regrettable to my friends not only here but in my own province-the only cause which has led me to take that regrettable step is because I have been unable to justify to my mind, to my own conscience, and to my own duty to my people, the support of the proposal which the government have decided upon making to this House and the

asking of legislation to pass with respect to the project known as the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.
It will naturally occur to the minds oi members on both sides of the House that it is a matter of extreme difficulty for me to enter upon a discussion of that question. If I were otherwise disposed to do so, I am unable to do it for the very sufficient reason that that project is not before this House at the present time. Nor do I know, from the remark which was made by the right hon. Prime Minister when he read his statement, the form in which that project will be submitted. But this much I do know, from that statement, that the chief troubles which I felt the government must necessarily experience if it forced on that project, have been adhered to. My objections, I may state briefly-not all of them. I will not enter on the subject at present with any degree of particularity, reserving what I have to say upon it for a later period, when it can be more properly and more sufficiently discussed. My objections were of this character. I objected to the government constructing another government road from L6vis to Moncton. I objected to it because it paralleled the Intercolonial Railway in my opinion, without a doubt. You cannot build a line between the same points without practically paralleling the Intercolonial Railway. However, I will not enter upon any elaboration of that point; I will merely state my position. I object to another government road, even if it does not parallel the Intercolonial Railway. We in the province of New Brunswick are not asking for it, unless there are some who want to see the money spent there, and that class of people, I apprehend, are not a class who will influence largely the action of this government or the legislation of this parliament. Another objection was that I thought we were proceeding with undue haste. I have no hesitation in stating that I am as much in favour of the construction of another transcontinental line as any other member of this parliament; but I am not in favour of impetuously rushing into the construction of a transcontinental line from Quebec, through an unknown country to Winnipeg and the west, until we know something about it-until we have the fullest information about it. The project is one of very great magnitude, and should be dealt with only after the maturest deliberation.
Now, Sir, without having this Bill before us, without being able to do more than simply indicate the order of events, I am going to state now to the House what occurred in connection with my resignation. On Saturday, the 4th of July, I became convinced that it was determined to build a line of government railway from Moncton to Quebec, and to proceed at once with the construction, without surveys, from Quebec to Winnipeg; and, Sir, feeling convinced, know-Hon. Mr. BLAIR.
ing, in fact, that what my right hon. friend has stated to-day "was then decided upon, I caused it to be made known that that policy, not to speak of other features which will be elaborated later, was not a policy to which I could commit myself as a member of the government; that I could not take the responsibility of bringing before parliament, and pressing and urging upon the acceptance of parliament, and calling for the approval of the country, a project of that character. That necessarily would involve and did involve, in the mind of anybody who had heard me, and who knew the position which I felt constrained to take, nothing jshort of a withdrawal from the government; and on Monday, I conveyed to the right hon. the Prime Minister my resignation as a member of the cabinet, with a written statement accompanying that resignation. I pointed out at the conclusion of my letter that I realized that there was the heavy Bill relating to the Railway Commission which had not yet been fully disposed of in committee, and that, if the right hon. gentleman so wished, and would give the Bill precedence in the order of business in the House, I was willing that my resignation should remain unacted upon until I could assist in putting through that measure. That met with the right hon. gentleman's approval; and at his request I accepted back from him the letter which I had written and the resignation which I had handed to him ; and the situation was just as I have stated it,- and continued to be, until after that Bill passed the committee. On Friday I had the letter re-written, leaving out what [DOT] had been said with reference to the Railway Commis-sio i Bill, inclosed my resignation with the accompanying letter, and was on the eve of handing it to the Prime Minister, when he did the honour of calling upon me and suggested that I might not act for a day or two, as he desired to think matters over. I was going away on Saturday. I acceded to his suggestion. I did not return till Monday. I expected to have seen him earlier on Monday than I did, and I sent that letter with another with my resignation to him on Monday, the 13th day of July. It remained, as I say, in abeyance during those six or seven days under the circumstances I have mentioned. Now, it is proper and due to this House, and due to myself, that. I should put the House in possession of the contents of the communication which on the 10th of July I forwarded to the right hon. the Prime Minister : Office of the	.
Minister of Railways and Canals, Ottawa. 10th July, 1903.
My dear Sir Wilfrid,-Since the statement of my position respecting the transcontinental project was made in council on Saturday last I have been considering the subject from all points of view, in the hope of finding some proper means by which I could avoid the necessity of withdrawing from the cabinet. I fully rea-

lize that in your present indifferent state of health such action on my part would cause you much anxiety and embarrassment, and this I would gladly spare you if it were at all possible. I deeply regret, however, that the more I reflect upon the situation the more I find myself constrained to take this step. It is the only course consistent with my view of public duty and what is required of me by my selfrespect.
The suggestion which was made to me when I stated to council my inability to become responsible for the policy which the government was apparently determined to adopt with reference to the transcontinental railway project, that I might delegate to some other minister, or that you yourself might take charge of the carriage of the resolutions and measure in parliament, appears to me more impracticable the more I consider it. It does not seem to me possible that, while declaring myself in council as disopproving strongly fiof the government policy on this question, and therefore unable to support the same in parliament, I could retain my position in the cabinet and avoid the public advocacy of a proposition which it would be especially my duty as Minister of Railways to present to parliament and defend before the country. This course of tactitly accepting a measure which my judgment strongly condemns I consider, on reflection, as neither fair to the government as a body nor just to myself. Aill inference would he drawn from my silence that I was not favourable to the government policy, and yet that I was not adverse to retaining my ministerial position. I am sure that we all would be placing ourselves, in such a course of conduct, in a false position, and would surely be assailed as committing an open and flagrant breach of a well recognized principle obtaining under our system of responsible government. Neither of us can afford to be a party to such a procedure, and I appeal to you to say whether or not it would not be infinitely better that I should submit to the sacrifice of the office which I have the honotir to hold, and in discharging the duties of which I have felt a legitimate pride, while you should be subjected to any embarrassment which might result from my resignation, rather than that we should jointly suffer the reproaches which such act on our part would necessarily provoke. The measure could not be many hours under consideration before parliament when I should be made to feel the insupportable character of my position, and you would be made to reproach yourself, and our colleagues to reproach themselves, with not having foreseen that this result would be inevitable.
You complained on Saturday, when I intimated my inability to support this scheme, that I had treated you unfairly in not having earlier in the discussion advised you that if this policy were determined upon I would be compelled to withdraw from the administration. I believe you will, on reflection, acquit me of this charge. It would grieve me deeply to think I had not dealt with you in a spirit of the utmost frankness and loyalty throughout the discussion of the question ; but with a knowledge of the situation, I could not bring myself to believe that a scheme so objectionable and alarming in many respects would be finally and deliberately adopted by government ; and I did not until a few days before Saturday last entertain the least idea that the advice tendered you against hasty and impetuous action would ultimately prevail.
I consider it would have been unbecoming on my part to have even hinted at withdrawal from the cabinet if my views did not prevail, while there were still good reasons for the hope that my opinions would have weight with yourself and our colleagues. When the ground for such hope appeared to be diminishing, which would be at least from two or three weeks ago, I went so far as to say, with all possible gravity, that I could not see how it would be possible for me as Minister of Railways to undertake to present and defend this scheme before parliament, or allow myself to be regarded as the minister primarily responsible for its adoption. The warning I then gave to yourself and my colleagues was going as far as I thought I ought to go at that stage. I intended it as a direct and clear intimation of my attitude upon the question. I think it was made with sufficient impressiveness, and it is not my fault if it was not appreciated by you:	It further appears to me that if I had declared my intention of withdrawing from the cabinet while there was still a prospect of this policy not being adopted, you would have considered I was endeavouring to accomplish by threat what I had failed to effect by argument.
I consider that my position with respect to this question differs in an important sense from that of any of my colleagues. As Minister of Railways the public would naturally regard me as having prompted and urged this scheme upon government. I would necessarily have the carriage of the proposal through parliament, and in the nature of things would be by the public regarded as more responsible for the policy than any other minister in the cabinet, excepting perhaps yourself. The brunt of the opposition -Which would be encountered in the House would have to be borne by me. and the duty of justifying and advocating the measure would largely devolve upon me. Even if I could bring myself to subordinate my personal judgment upon the question for the sake of the party, how could I discharge the duty of advocating and defending the measure without any heart in the cause, and with the strong opinion which I have uniformly entertained that it was not a policy which would be conducive to public interests, nor one which could be safely adopted in the interest of the government itself.
Again, as respects my being open to the charge of want of fairness to yourself, it rather appears to me that an allegation of that character more properly lies at your door. The Grand Trunk proposition bad been made to you, and you had consulted with other ministers, and those ministers had met Mr. Hays on several occasions, as I am advised with your knowledge and approval, long before you made me aware that negotiations or discussions on this subject had been entered upon and were being prosecuted. I do ndt say that I was unaware of them, because information indirectly reached me to that effect ; but I do say they had made progress and had been well advanced before my chief had considered it proper or necessary to acquaint me with the facts. I think I might justly complain that so important a matter of policy, arising within the sphere of my own department, should have been conducted and continued in this way behind my back, and without my knowledge. I am not making this the subject of complaint now, and it has not materially influenced my action at the present moment. I believe, if my memory serves me, this is the first occasion I have mentioned the subject to you. I reconciled myself

to the very obvious slight which had been cast upon me on the ground that probably your knowledge of my views on the general question did not encourage you to expect I would look with much favour upon, or render much assistance toward carrying out the object you had in view.
With the most extreme regret, Sir Wilfrid, X feel compelled to tender you my resignation, which I have to beg you will hand to His Excellency without delay. This resignation you must treat as final. The action which has been taken since Saturday last, in submitting to a caucus of supporters of the government in parliament the transcontinental railw-ay propositions, identically in the form in which they were adopted by council, assures me that the government has fully resolved to take the responsibility of asking parliament to approve them.
In case you may think the action which has been taken is not irrevocable, and to avoid any possible misunderstanding on the question, I feel I ought to repeat to you the conditions upon which I would be disposed, if you so desired, to further consider my action in this matter.
I would require that the government should abandon its present intention :-
1st. Of building or authorizing the building of a line of railway to Moncton, which would be parelleling and destroying the Intercolonial ; or building or authorizing the building of any other line of railway more remote from the Intercolonial, until the need of such latter railway becomes apparent, and proper surveys and an estimate of its cost are first made and thoroughly considered.
2nd. The idea of immediately proceeding with a railway from Quebec to Winnipeg. The government should be content with declaring itself in favour of the policy of building a government line from Quebec to the prairies, and across the prairies to the Pacific coast, as soon as the need shall arise ; and in the meantime that parliament be asked for an amount to enable a thorough exploration of the country to be made, so that it might be possible to judge whether or not a suitable traffic producing route could be found through this district, and its cost and the character and conditions of the country through which it is to pass ascertained.
I would further stipulate :
3rd.That if such a route is found practicable, and gave promise of a fair measure of traffic a railway should be built by government through, if the government should so decide, a commission, rather than by the government itself directly, and that a contract for such construction should be let only after open and public competition.
4>th. That when built and ready for operation, such railway should not be handed over to any one existing rallw-ay company under lease ; but that the same should be operated either by the government itself, through a commission appointed for the purpose, if so preferred, or by a trust composed of the representatives of the different railways which might intend to use it under direct government supervision and control : and that such form of dealing with the question of operation or management should be decided later after a fuller knowledge of the facts and mature deliberation.
5th. That the policy of giving a present guarantee or other aid to the company to build a railway in continuation of the Quebec-Wlnnipeg line through the fertile prairie district, the most valuable and promising section of the Hon. Mr. BLAIR.
whole system, should not now be entertained, and that the final decision of the matter be deferred until it became reasonably clear that settlement along the probahle route of such railway would justify its construction.
I desire to express my extreme regret at parting from my colleagues, and under the conditions which have made this step necessary. With many of my associates at the council board it has been a great pleasure to me to act during Hie past seven years. If- it is to he a final separation, I assure you I withdraw with personal feelings of the friendliest character.
Will you, Sir Wilfrid, accept my grateful appreciation of the compliment and honour conferred upon me when you invited me to take a seat in the cabinet at its formation in 1896.
Tours faithfully,
(Sgd.) AND'W G. BLAIR.
This letter, as I have said, was one, with the exception of the reference to the Railway Committee Bill, which I wrote and handed to the right hon. gentleman the First Minister, on Monday, the 6th of July. It was held over under the circumstances I have detailed to you; and when I gave him my explanation in the letter I have just read, I accompanied it with a further letter dated 13th July, which I will also now, with your permission, read to the House :-
My dear Sir Wilfrid,-As I had not delivered to you my letter of the 10th instant on that day, owing to your request that I should defer action for a day or twro to enable you to think matters over still further, I have thought that I might supplement that communication and suggest means whereby a common understanding on the railway question could yet be arrived at between my colleagues and myself.
Let me state our position on the main question : My decided preference is for a government owned and government operated railway across the continent, and my chief reason for favouring it is that it will have an equalizing and-regulating influence upon all other railw-ays throughout the western territory. In this view I am practically alone, and therefore I admit at once that this proposition must be laid aside. But the cabinet has decided that the government shall build half way across the continent as a government road, namely, between Quebec and Winnipeg, and wrhen built shall lease the same to the Grand Trunk Pacific ; and as to the other half, it has been determined, as I understand, that liberal government aid shall be given the same company to build and thereafter to own to the coast.
To this mode of solving the railway problem I am decidedly opposed. At best it is a hybrid scheme, involving the compromise of two antagonistic principles, and will be followed, as is usual with compromises of that kind, by unsatisfactory results. [DOT] It will also fail to satisfy the exponents of either view. It will be difficult to explain why government should build and own the lean section of this railw-ay, and provide a company with government credit to enable them to build and operate the fat section.
It is attempted to justify the eastern proposition from Quebec to Winnipeg on the ground that a great railway highway will thus be assured, open to any and all of the western railways to connect with it, and who might take their trains independently over this common

highway from their connecting point to the St. Lawrence. I will not elaborate again my objections to this plan. It is wholly impracticable that this line could be so used by different railway companies. There must be some authorized body to work, not the trains, but the freight cars of the different railways, and generally to look after and operate the line. The necessity of this is what I presume has led my colleagues to decide that they will lease this section to the Grand Trunk Pacific, and it is proposed to assure the public that a contract can be made with the Grand Trunk Pacific so binding as to enable these different railway companies to exercise what are called ' running rights ' from and to Quebec and Winnipeg. This is equally impracticable, in my opinion, or nearly so. The Grand Trunk Pacific will employ the men who will handle the traffic. The officers of the line will also be employees of the Grand Trunk Pacific, and the Grand Trunk Pacific Company will be in the field as a keen and active competitor for western traffic with these other companies which it is presumed will desire to connect with the terminals at the end of the government owned section.
I will not go into the reasons, which are conclusive, but, under these circumstances, other companies if they can find any other means of reaching eastern points will not utilize this road. For my present purposes it will suffice to say that in this opinion I believe I am absolutely correct.
As I have sail, I am in favour of the whole line being built and owned by government ; but having abandoned any expectation in that regard I am equally in favour of the whole line being a company line, if any portion of it, or a substantial portion, is to be a company line, and therefore I am prepared, since Council has determined to go forward with this undertaking at once, to co-operate with my colleagues in guaranteeing the bonds over the whole line to an extent not exceeding three-quarters of the cost of the construction of the railway.
If this view* is entertained I think it should be upon some such conditions as the following.- I do not propose to state all of them, but the important ones :-
1st. The Grand Trunk Pacific is being aided to a most generous extent. It cannot build Its road without very liberal assistance. In giving aid the government might very properly impose terms looking to some financial advantage to the country in the future, and therefore I would insist that a share of the earnings-I would not say half, but I would not think it ought to be less than a third of the net earnings, or that portion of the net earnings which would not be required for the improvement or betterment of the road, and which remained for distribution among stockholders, should go to government.
In this connection, government might very properly claim the right to appoint one of the directors, and also have the books of the company open to the inspection of a railway accountant at any time reaulred.
2nd. As a means to achieve the same purpose which the Nova Scotia people appear to consider very essential-that is to soy the obtaining of a share during the winter of the Grand Trunk Pacific through-traffic for Halifax-the company should be bound to carry all unrouted traffic over the whole of the Winnipeg section of a St. Lawrence seaport in summer, and in the winter from Quebec to Halifax and St. John over the Intercolonial ; and the In-


Andrew George Blair: tercolonlal should, in the division of rates, be entitled to such division on a mileage basis, mile per mile, with the Grand Trunk Pacific. As to traffic not routed the Grand Trunk Pacific should be required to bind itself that it will use all its influence with its shippers in respect of traffic originating in the west for ocean carriage to secure such traffic for the Intercolonial during the winter season, using with its shippers ali lawful and proper means to that end. There might very well be a condition in the contract between the government and the Grand Trunk Pacific in order to ensure the observance of this feature of the contract, that the Governor in Council should have power by Order in Council to declare, after inquiry at any time, if it is so established, that the Grand Trunk Pacific have not compiled with their agreement and have not used all lawful and proper means to secure the routing of traffic over the Intercolonial ; and such declaration being made, the same should be final and conclusive as to the fact, and the Grand Trunk Pacific should be thereupon liable to pay to the Intercolonial the share of freight rates which it would have earned had the agreement been carried out.
I am sure that this will guarantee bona fide treatment by the Grand Trunk Pacific under any management, and will thereby secure an advantage, not only without the enormous expense to the country which would be involved in the building of a line to Moncton, but would save the Intercolonial from destruction and depreciation, and keep the people who live along the line from having the Intercolonial reduced to a mere local road, and, at the same time, would increase the business carried over that railway to the extent to which such business would have been done by the Grand Trunk Pacific over the proposed Monscton line.
I mention these as a few* of the stipulations which appear to me to be reasonable and proper, and which, if I had been permitted to conduct the negotiations on this question, I would have sought to bring about. They do not by any means exhaust all that might be suggested ; but I mention these now so that you. Sir Wilfrid, and the council may have them before you before you finally determine that yon will perpetrate that I cannot help regarding as one of the most indefensible railway transactions which has ever taken place in this country. The more 1 think upon this subject and look forward to the consequences which are going to flow* from an adherence to the present scheme the less capable I am of recon-cilling myself to it, and the more determined I feel that the whole responsibility of the undertaking will have to rest upon other shoulders than mine.
I feel it my duty to add. that I shall be compelled, on further reflection, to oppose the project in its passage through parliament.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd 1 AND'W. G. BLAIR.
To that letter the right hon. Prime .Minister returned the following reply :
Privy Council,
Ottawa, 14th July, 1903.
My dear Blair,-I received yesterday afternoon, your letter dated the 10th, placing in my hands your resignation as member of the Cabinet and Minister of Railways.
I have received at the same time another letter in which you set forth the reasons which have led you to the course which you have adopted.

This last communication opens with a review of the deliberations which have taken place in Council on the railway question. In this review, matters are stated which, in my estimation, come within the rule that ' the deliberations of the Council, upon all matters which engage their attention, are strictly private and confidential.'
I therefore refrain from discussing them.
With regard to the charge that negotiations with Mr. Hays made progress and were well advanced, before I considered it proper or necessary to acquaint you with the facts, I have only to remind you that I thought advisable at first, to retain in my hands the negotiations of this important subject, keeping the Council constantly informed, until I referred the matter to a sub-commitee. of which you were one. Moreover, far from admitting the charge I claim that since you entered the government, at its formation, I have always extended to you the frank, loyal and cordial support which I consider is due by the Prime Minister to his colleagues.
As to the reasons which you put forward for your dissent from our policy, this is not the time or place to review them.
I may observe, however, on the two main points of your objections : -
1. I am surprised at your statement that the projected line from Quebec eastward to Moncton will parallel the Intercolonial Railway. The territory served by the new line is not the same as the territory served by the Intercolonial Rsilway. Between the two lines there will be, not only a distance varying from forty to seventy-five miles, but a chain of mountains dividing the territory to be served by each of them.
The plan which we have adopted for the construction of the line from Moncton to the Pacific coast, has been purposely selected so as to keep in the hands of the government the key to the transportation problem from the prairies to the ocean, and to leave the initiative of a private company the section of country w-here energy and enterprise will be constantly required to meet the exigencies of an ever-changing situation.
It was my duty, this morning, to call upon His Excellency the Governor General, to inform him of your resignation, which it was his regret to accept, and in the afternoon, I acquainted the Council of your final determination.
Allow me, in conclusion, to express to you my extreme sorrow for an action which I regard as a great mistake toward yourself, toward your friends, toward your colleagues, and above all toward your country, which, at this juncture, requires a bold and fearless policy of transcontinental development.
Yours very sincerely,
(Sgd. WILFRID LAURIER. The Hon. A. G. Blair,
Ottawa.
Mr. Speaker, I have about concluded, all I have to say upon this occasion I acquit the right hon gentleman (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) of any intention or disposition to offer any discourtesy to me.
I realize that it would be foreign to his nature or disposition to offer intentional discourtesy to any one. But I am bound to say there may be occasions when, unintentionally, perhaps the same result follows as though it had been designed. I have not. however, allowed myself, in considering this
Hon. Mr. BLAIR,
question of the resignation to be influenced by any other thought than as to whether or not the proposals in themselves which my right hon. friend had decided to make to parliament were such as were entitled to my support. I have determined that question according to the best lights I possess. I do feel that when my right hon. friend says I made a great mistake toward myself, toward my friends, toward my colleagues and toward my country that he is speaking the honest convictions of his mind. But, Sir, if I am capable of exercising any judgment on a matter of this kind, I am bound to say that I do not agree with my right hon. friend, I am bound to say that if I had come to this parliament, and, with what little knowledge and experience [ have had of railway questions deliberately advised this parliament and this country that this was a scheme which merited their acceptance, I do not believe 1 should not have been doing my duty to myself, and in not doing my duty to myself, I should not have been doing my duty to the party with which I am allied. It was my plain and simple course to let them know at the earliest possible moment, and to let the public know also, how strongly I felt, as a responsible minister of the Crown with respect to this important question. My strong conviction is that this country cannot wisely adopt and carry into operation the policy which my right hon. friends the government has adopted.


Mr.   I@: Mr. Speaker, I think it is only right, in view of the announcement which has been made to-day by the Prime Minister (the Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. A. G. Blair) to state from this side of the House that, while we have, on many occasions opposed that hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Blair) as strenuously as we were able to do, we are glad to remember, that no personal feeling has entered into our political conflicts either on his part or, certainly, on our own. While we have not seen eye to eye with him in the past as regards many matters of public interest, still every one of us on this side of the House recognizes to the fullest extent the very great ability which he has brought to the discharge of his public duties, the very great experience which he has acquired in public life, and especially the enormous industry which, on all occasions, he has displayed in the discharge of his duties as a minister of this cabinet. Indeed I know that I am voicing the opinions of gentlemen on both sides of the House when I say that many of us have been surprised, during the past five or six years, that the hon. gentleman had been able to endure the enormous amount of work that has been cast upon his shoulders, particularly during the sessions of parliament.
I do not propose at the present time to

discuss the very general Information, the somewhat vague information, which has been afforded to the House with regard to the railway policy of the government. A full opportunity for that discussion will be afforded when the policy itself is laid before the House and before the country. But I may say, in passing, that no one can fail to recognize the very great responsibility which this government has undertaken when it has seen fit to override the opinions of the man who, of all others in the cabinet, had the most experience with regard to transportation questions in this country; and particularly are we impressed with the responsibility which the government has taken upon itself when we realize, even from the vague and general statement made by my right hon. friend, the extraordinary character of the proposal which is to be announced to parliament before the end of tins session. I do not propose to stop to discuss it now; the House is not in a position to discuss it now in the way in which it should be discussed, because we have not the details before us. But there is at least one point which I may press upon my right hon. friend, and press upon him, I think, with a great deal of force. It is well known in the country that the question of transcontinental transportation has been engaging the attention of this government for more than a year. The question to all intents and purposes of a transcontinental railway came before this House, was mentioned in this House, and the attention of the House was directed to it, at the beginning -of the present session of parliament, and an announcement was made in the speech from the Throne regarding it, in the following language :
The great influx of population into our Northwestern Territories, and the very large additional areas of fertile land which are being brought under cultivation, combine to further press upon us the nned tor increased transportation facilities for the forwarding of our grain and other products to the markets of the world through Canadian channels. The whole Question of transportation and terminal facilities continues to occupy much attention, and my government will immediately appoint a commission of experienced men to report on the subject.
Mr. Speaker, we have now entered well upon the fifth month of the present session, and up to the present time, until the general statement made by the Prime Minister to-day, not one single word of information has been afforded to parliament as to what the railway policy of the government is ; and up to the present time not one single meeting of that transportation commission has been held. Indeed I believe, the gentlemen who are to compose it have not yet been finally selected. Although the questions with which that commission is to deal are questions most vitally and closely touching the very matter which the government will bring down, I hope, within
a few days, we are to proceed to discuss in this House the construction of a transcontinental railway through a country which the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals says we know nothing about ; we are to proceed to discuss that question without one single word of information from the gentlemen who are to constitute that transportation commission. My right hon. friend may say that these gentlemen were to deal with the question of improving facilities upon the lakes, and with equipping our national ports. I say that it is impossible to separate those questions from the great question of another transcontinental railway; and you cannot properly, or adequately or fully deal with that question until you have the information before the House which should be afforded by a commission, and by the report of that commission laid before the House. Now, I say that, in passing, for the purpose of impressing upon the right hon. gentleman who leads this House and upon his government the importance of bringing this policy, if a policy there is to be, before this House at the very earliest moment. In the closing days of the session, is this House, is this country, to be called upon to decide, in the hurried way in which these matters have to be dealt with in the last hours of the session, upon a policy which is so startling and of so much importance to this country that the man wrho above all others In the government is supposed to be able to form a safe judgment upon it, has found it necessary to separate himself from the government and to declare that the policy w'hich the government propose to bring before this House is one which is not in the true interests of this country, but which according to his well considered and well matured judgment, may properly be characterized as not only extravagant but even absurd. Now, how long does my right hon. friend propose to keep the House in ignorance of the details of this policy 1 How much longer is this uncertainty to continue ? How much longer is this House to wait while the members of the government are making up their minds and settling their differences, if differences there be ? Because rumours are rife with regard to such matters. How much longer is the House and the country to be kept in ignorance of this project in order that matters of this kind may be determined by the government ? I say that if this government proposes to deal with this question at the present session of parliament, we have already waited too long. I say further that if the government adopts the extraordinary course of bringing down in the fifth or sixth month of the session a measure of this kind, without any report from the transportation commission which was referred to in the speech from tlie Throne-I say that if the government propose to continue this delay still longer, they merit, and I believe they will receive,

the just condemnation of every right thinking man in this country.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing further to add at present, except to request my right lion, friend, before this matter is finally disposed of, to give to the House a statement as to whether the government has definitely determined to bring its policy before the House at the present session of parliament; and if the government has come to that determination, to inform the House on what day, on what early day, we may expect a full and detailed announcement of that policy. There is another thing I wish to mention before sitting down. I wish to inquire whether the right bon. gentleman is in a position to inform the House to-day, and if not, when he will be in a position to do so, as to the filling of the vacancy which has been occasioned by the retirement of my hon. friend the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals, whether any general reconstruction of the cabinet will be considered necessary, and what gentleman is it that has been selected to fill the vacancy so created.


Hon. J. I. TARTE (St. Mary's, Montreal).: I am compelled to say a few words on this occasion. The ' News ' of yesterday, published an article from which I quote the following words ;
The Rift in the Cabinet.
in this article, which I understand has been inspired from the treasury benches-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Israël Tarte: As other articles have been in the past to my knowledge


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Israël Tarte: It is plainly stated that neither my hon. friend who has just left office (Hon. Mr. Blair) nor myself has had the confidence of his colleagues during the last three or four years. Let me say that as far as I am concerned this is the first time that I have heard such news. I have not always agreed with my colleagues. Any body who has been a minister will grant that all members of the government cannot be of the same mind, but with most of my former associates I have had the most pleasant and cordial relations. I grant that I had opponents. I am very much afraid that I even had enemies. For the last year or two marked for decapitation because we did not have the confidence of our colleagues ! The right hon. Prime Minister is the leader of the government. Could it be possible that the right hon. gentleman would have kept me or my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) in his council, or would he have kept me in his intimacy marking me at the same time for decapitation ? Such a suggestion is not possible.
The dissension in the Ottawa Cabinet which led to Mr. Blair's resignation is presented by certain Conservative journals as an evidence of weakness in Sir Wilfrid Laurier's leadership. Nothing could be further from the truth. In view of the 'Premier's peremptory dismissal of Mr. Tarte from his cabinet and his ready acceptance of Mr. Blair's resignation, it is idle to maintain the old fiction that Sir Wilfrid Laurier lacks decision and strength of character. The general opinion among Conservatives was that the Premier dare not dismiss Mr. Tarte. while the mere fact that New Brunswick goes Liberal gave to oppositionists probably a very similar opinion of the strength of Mr. Blair and of his ascendancy in the cabinet. As a matter of fact, for the last (hree or four years neither man had any particular influence in the councils of the government. Neither had the confidence of his colleagues. Both were marked for certain decapitation when the necessity ariose. Both these men seemed to the public to be shaping the ministerial policy. Tn each case the fact was quite .the reverse of what the oppositionists argued and the general public believed. Both were heralded as efficient departmental heads ; neither, in fact, was a particularly capable administrator.
How things go in the world ! A few months ago the ministerial newspapers took no exception and nearly all my colleagues were of the opinion that I wa s a very capable Minister of Public Works. In point of fact I was heralded as the ablest Minister of Public Works that had occupied this office since Mackenzie, which I did not deserve, I admit. But that is not the point to which I desire to especially draw the attention of parliament. It is pointed out I


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Israël Tarte: It is not possible.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Joseph Israël Tarte: And I think that the ' News ' is not building a pedestal for my right hon. friend in history in circulating stories of that kind. It seems to me that it cannot be imagined that the right hon. leader of the government could keep in his intimacy, as he has done me the honour to keep me in his intimacy, a cabinet minister who for the last three or four years did not possess his confidence. It may he that my ability has not been equal to my good will. I have done my duty to the best of my ability and my colleagues-most of them from the right hon. Prime Minister down-have been good enough to give me credit for my humble efforts. I have been six years and a half a member of the Railway Committee of the Privy Council, an important position ; I have been six years and a half a member of the treasury board, another responsible and confidential position. Now, immediately after my resignation- not dismissal, because I resigned out of my free will-the ' Star,' the personal organ of the hon. Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) stated that I was disgruntled and displeased because I did not exercise over the government all the influence, that, perhaps, in the mind of that paper, I should have exercised. I have exercised all the influence that I could de-
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax.)
<>753

sire to exercise in my bumble capacity. The same paper also stated that X was displeased because I had not been invited to form part of the Intercolonial conference committee. Let me say to those who inspired that article that I did not expect that two French Canadians could form part of that Intercolonial conference committee. The right hon. Prime Minister was representing not only the government but also the French element which was quite sufficient for me. I may add for the information of those who inspired that article that the right hon. gentleman was good enough to invite me to visit Paris while he was on the other side to help him in the negotiation with the French government.
I told him, that, having been absent one-summer on account of illness and another summer because I was at the Paris exhibition, I should be relieved from that duty. I make that statement for the right hon. gentleman's sake as well as for my own. Perhaps I may answer this article as it is my right and duty to do so by saying that a short time before we parted after the session was over, the right hon. gentleman with the consent and cheerful co-operation of all my colleagues offered to recommend me for very high compliments which I thought that my state of fortune would not permit me to accept. If I had not the confidence of my colleagues surely I would not be treated as 1 was being treated then. I make this statement to-day because I think I have the right to my reputation. I have left the government because I thought, that my views, being so different on a broad question from those of my colleagues, it was my duty to part from them. Surely there is no crime in a minister of the Crown giving up an important, a responsible and an honourable position to go back into private life. Let the ' News ' build up the right hon. gentleman. Let it write it over again that he has more energy than all the government combined. I have no objection. My right hon. friend has received from my hands-not only when I was his colleague, but when I was his opponent in the press gallery-fair treatment and even cordial and friendly treatment. I have no objection that the right hon. gentleman should be held up as an able man of business, provided it is not to the detriment of the reputation of public men who have equal rights to stand in public opinion for what they are worth. Now Sir, only one word more. The article goes on to speak of what has been accomplished in the past by the right hon. gentleman in the province of Quebec. I do not claim any share in what has been done. I happen to know though that in the difficulties of the school question and in other difficulties, I tried to help him to the best of my ability. My humble support may not have helped him very materially although it was given at the time when the right hon. gentleman 212
was not of the same mind as those who say to-day that I never was worth much in the past, and that I am even worth less now.
However, let bygones be bygones as far as that part of political history is concerned. What I wanted to make clear to-day is that so long as I was a member of the government I enjoyed the confidence of my leader and of most of my colleagues. I have differed with others on questions on which public opinion is not yet enlightened, as history, and history within a short time may demonstrate. Ministers cannot always agree. It is a well known fact that on several occasions I had to disagree on certain railway proposals, going so far in the Railway Committee and in the House as to speak against certain railway proposals which some of my colleagues were upholding. There were other questions with regard to which I am not free to speak, but on which I could not agree with my former colleagues. But the main point on which we have disagreed is the fiscal policy. On that we could not possibly agree, and it was on that I went out of the cabinet. Now Sir, having made this statement so as to let the country know what my personal position was when I had the honour of being a member of the government, I beg to resume my seat.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Mr. Speaker. My hon. friend from St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte) has just made a speech, the relevancy of which to this debate I altogether fail to see. The hon. gentleman referred to an article which I have not yet read, and to which my attention was called only a few minutes ago, just before I entered the chamber. The hon. gentleman stated that he had reason to believe that this article had been inspired from the treasury benches, and judging by the manner In which he looked towards me and the manner in which he spoke afterwards, I gather that the hon. gentleman has the impression that I inspired .that article. Let me say to my hon. friend; my old friend, that he ought to know me better, than to suppose that I fight with that kind of weapon. I state upon my honour-and the hon. gentleman may believe me or not, and apparently he is not inclined to believe me-but I state on my honour here; and I think the word honour is a word which friend and foe can appreciate in this House. I state on my honour that I had nothing whatever to do with that article; that I never inspired, never read or never saw it until this moment.


Joseph Israël Tarte: Would my right hon. friend the Prime Minister permit me to say at once that he is quite mistaken. I did not make any allusion to him at all.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I am very giad to hear it, but if the hon. gentleman acquits me of this kind of warfare he apparently
, REVISED EDITION

still believes that this article has been inspired by the treasury benches.


Joseph Israël Tarte: Yes.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Let me say to my hon. friend that so far as I know I think he is equally mistaken there. My hon. friend is a journalist; he has been in the business for more than thirty years, and surely he knows too much as to how newspapers are made to believe that if an article appears in the newspapers it must be traced at once to some one in authority. Let me say to my hon. friend that he is wrong to put any such construction upon the article that appeared in the Toronto ' News.' I have no objection to say to my hon. friend-we have been opponents; we have been members of the same party and members of the same cabinet; I am afraid perhaps that we are opponents to some extent again and at all events upon some questions-but let me say to him that for my part and for the part of any one who sits around me here, it is not our intention or my intention to minimize him or any of our opponents. If I have difficulties with anybody I would rather have difficulties with somebody who is somebody than with somebody who is nobody. I may say to my hon. friend that for my part I do not care what is written about me in the newspapers. I have my share of compliments sometimes and I have my share of abuse at some other times. Abuse does not affect me and compliments do not affect me. Whatever may be said in that article in the ' News ' as to what I have done (and I understand from the words of my hon. friend that it is rather complimentary) it does not add a single inch or takes away an inch or whether it praises me or abuses me I am what I am, and there is only one thing for which I care ; that is the esteem of the friends who surround me. My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tarte) has given out secrets, and I cannot say that I have any strong objections to that. It is very true that I had been prepared to recommend him for high honours. It is very true that I was a friend of his, and I think he will admit also that as long as he was a member of the cabinet over which I presided I gave him a most cordial support. I have not hesitated to back him under every circumstance and I am bound to say that my relations with him were always cordial. But when the time came when I thought that he was endeavouring to force upon the party a policy of which I did not approve, we had to part, and we could not remain in the cabinet together any longer.
Let me say in conclusion to my hon. friend that far be it from me on this occasion or any other occasion to give him or to ask my friends to give him anything but that opposition which men must offer to each other when they do not belong to the same party or when they are even within the same Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
party but do not see eye to eye on all questions.
With regard to the position of my hon. friend the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals I may say the same thing. In the correspondence which he has read and in his remarks he has taken some exception to my conduct, as to the negotiations on this question which may result in a transcontinental railway scheme being proposed to this parliament. I have only this to say to my hon. friend also, and I think he will bear testimony to it, that so long as he was my colleague I supported him with the best of my ability. I treated him as it is my duty to treat every one of my colleagues, that is to assume that they must be supported in everything departmental. But he and I have differed upon this question of policy, and here there is a distinction.
Now, I will not enter on the discussion of this great question, which before long is to come before parliament. I have only this to say to my hon. friend, that I think, in the words of the letter which I addressed to him a few days ago, when he signified his intention of severing his connection with the cabinet, that he has made ' a great mistake towards himself, towards his friends, towards his colleagues and, above all, towards his country, which at this juncture requires a bold and fearless policy of transcontinental development.' I know very well that when we bring forward this policy, we must incur severe criticism. I have yet to learn that any policy which at all commands, or deserves to command, the attention of men has been received in silence or has not been fought. I know the difficulty, under all circumstances, of reconciling men to a big scheme ; but because the policy is big, or because it will arouse criticism, certainly ought not to be a reason, and will not be a reason, for me at all events, for not doing what is required at this moment in the best interests of the country. I will not discuss the views of my hon. friend as exposed in his letter. I do not think this is the time to do so. All this criticism, I think, will come better when the resolutions are before the House, when the House can discuss them intelligently, having all the details before them.
With regard to the remarks of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, I am sorry that I do not think it is possible for us to satisfy his rather fastidious curiosity. My hon. friend is entitled to know a good deal-not only a good deal, but everything that passes through the government which must take the shape of legislation. But my hon. friend has been rather anticipating events. To-day we have the ministerial explanations, and the debate ought to be confined to them. My hon. friend asks me who is going to take the place of Minister of Railways in the cabinet. I think my hon. friend will agree with me that that question is rather premature. He did not ex-

pect me, I am sure,to give him this information to-day, but put the question rather as a flyer. Let me say to my hon. friend that I think this is a case in which the old Latin maxim, ' festina lente ' is opportune. I do not propose to make any haste in filling the position vacated by my hon. friend from the city of St. John (Hon. Mr. Blair). It shall be my pleasure, accompanied with regret, to ask His Excellency, at no distant day, to approve of the selection of another Minister of Railways. I do not propose either to say whether there shall be any reconstruction of the cabinet, because I do not think there is any occasion for such a demand on the part of my hon. friend. Perhaps my hon. friend has read the statement in the newspapers that there is to be a reconstruction of the cabinet. Well, if my hon. friend is to take the statements of the newspapers, he must have all the information, which I have not, because newspapers make and unmake cabinets. Newspapers sometimes give information that I have never heard of as to what the government are going to do. Therefore, I think we must rest content at this moment with the statement that there is not and is not likely to be another vacancy in the cabinet besides the one that now exists.
With regard to the policy which we are going to introduce, I am not prepared to say on what day we shall introduce it; but I hope that in a short time, after a reasonable delay, we shall have the pleasure of introducing a policy which will command, I will not say the support of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, but the support of a majority of the members of this House.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: Mr. Speaker, if I might say a word with the indulgence of the House, I understand, of course, that if the right hon. gentleman has not yet recommended any successor to the hon. the ex-Minister of Railways and) Canals, he could not make any announcement to the House to-day. But I thought, and still think, that it is proper for me to inquire, and for the'House to know, immediately upon the right hon. gentleman coming to a determination, whether or not there is to be any reconstruction of the cabinet. The right hon. gentleman has given us the assurance, that, so far as he knows at present, there is to be no such reconstruction ; and I am perfectly willing to accept that for the present, knowing, of course, that he will at the earliest posible moment make such an announcement to the House in regard to this matter as may be necessary. If I might add a further word, I would venture to suggest to my right hon. friend that when he speaks so lightly of the newspapers, he seems to have adopted a somewhat different attitude from that which he adopted when he was dealing with the case of my hon. friend from St. Mary's, Montreal (Hon. Mr. Tarte) ; because, if 1 remember correctly, the course of discipline he administered to 2124
that hon. gentleman was to put himself in possession of all the newspapers that had been published in Canada for three or four weeks previously, peruse them carefully, and then decide the fate of my hon. friend upon them. So that I think it will not do for my right hon. friend on one occasion to attach such very great importance to the information which we are glad to get from the press, and on other occasions to discount, to so great an extent as he seems inclined to do to-day, the information which, even by way of rumour, is sometimes contained in the public press of Canada.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Sir William Mulock).: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St. Mary's division (Hon. Mr. Tarte), in the course of his remarks, stated that certain articles had appeared in the Toronto ' Star ' with reference to him, and also stated that that journal was the personal organ of the Postmaster General, meaning, I suppose, thereby to suggest that the Postmaster General was more or less responsible for the references in that journal to himself. I regret that the hon. gentleman should have made that remark, and I would not refer to it now lest my silence might be misunderstood. I therefore take this occasion to say to him and to the House that the paper in question is not my personal organ, that I have no more control over what appears in its columns than the hon. gentleman himself, that I have not seen the articles to which he referred, nor have I ever at any time in my life inspired any article having the slightest reference to the hon. member for St. Mary's division.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Surveys, examination of survey returns, printing of plans, including $13,000 for irrigation purposes, &c., $430,000.
['The suggestion has been made that we should adjourn. As my hon. friends have been fairly liberal in passing these items, I think we have got as much as we can reasonably ask for to-night.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of the Minister of the Interior, House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.', 'Fkiday, July 17, 1903.']
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will give a brief statement by the surveyor general :
Estimate of the amount required for Dominion lands surveys, during fiscal year, 1903-4 :- Fourteen parties under daily pay at
$7,000 each	[DOT][DOT]	$ 98,000 00
Two panties under daily pay at $14,000
each	
28,000	00One party under daily pay at $6,000..	6,000	00
Sixty subdivision survey contracts at
$8,000	
480,000	00Inspection of surveys	
10,000	00Irrigation surveys	
13,000	00Yukon surveys office	
45,000	00Employees at Ottawa	
60,000	00Miscellaneous	
10,000	00
Total amount required for 1903-4. .$750,000 00 The above amount of $750,000 has been provided for as follows :-
In main estimates, 1903-4	$430,000 00
In supplementary estimates	 320,000 00



[Stage Direction]
When preparing estimates for next fiscal year, in November last, it was thought that the sum of $430,000 would be sufficient to meet the requirements of the next year; but, since then, the great influx of intending settlers from the United States and from Europe has made it imperative upon the country to provide homesteads for the incoming immigration, and it was decided that an additional amount of $320,000 should be inserted in the supplementary estimates to enable the department to subdivide a sufficient number of townships to meet the wants of immigration. The intention is to survey about 500 new townships during the next fiscal year.
Mr. SPROULE.: In what localities are the surveys being made ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The localities are as follows :
South eastern Manitoba, one party
under daily pay	$ 7,000 00
York town distract and western Manitoba. under daily pay, renewed surveys	
14,000	00Between Lake Winnipeg and Manitoba. under	daily	pay	
7,000	00
Forth of Batfcleford, two parties under
daily pay	 14,000	00
Edmonton district, one party under
daily pay	
7,000	00Edmonton district,	renewed surveys. 14,000	00
Red Deer district one party under
.daily pay	7,000	00
McLeod district, one party under
daily pay	 7,000	00
Rocky Mountains-
One party under daily pay	$ 6,000 00
British Columbia-
Two parties	under	daily	pay	 14,000	00
Unforeseen surveys-
Five parties under daily pay .. .. 35,000 00 Subdivision of townships between Fort Pelly in Eastern Assiniboia and Edmonton in Alberta-
Sixty contracts	at	$8.000	 480,000	00
Total	$612,000 00


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How do you let contracts, by the township or by the day ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: By the township. '	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Plow much does the hon. minister propose for this work ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Dominion Lands Act provides that, except in special cases, the township subdivision surveys of Dominion lands shall be performed under contract at a certain rate per township, per mile, or per acre, fixed from time to time by the Governor in Council, or by competitive tender. The present rate has been fixed by the Governor in Council, and varies according to the difficulty of the work, from $7 per mile in bare prairie, to $30 and $35 per mile in the woods. The subdivision of a township, not including the exterior boundaries laid out by surveyors under daily pay, requires a sur-Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
I
vey of 48 miles of section lands and of the lakes and rivers within the township. The cost varies from $350 on the bare prairies to $2,000 and over in the woods. A full township provides 64 free homesteads. The townships to be subdivided during the present season are situated between Fort Pelly in eastern Assiniboia and Edmonton in Alberta. Some are on bare prairie and some in country more or less wooded. The intention is to survey about 500 townships. Four hundred are estimated to cost about $900 each. The remaining one hundred townships, being more heavily wooded, are estimated at $1,200 each.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If I understand it correctly, all the mapping out work is done by men paid by the day ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The general principle is that the outline work is done by surveyors under pay, and township subdividing is done by surveyors who are under contract where the nature of the work is such that the cost can be fully estimated.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is paid per day for outlining work laying out the townships ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are doing that work under charge of Dominion land surveyors, who receive $6.50 per day, assistants, who receive $3 per day, and labourers, who are paid the rate of' wages of the locality. The ordinary party consists of a land surveyor, his assistant,, nine or ten labourers and a cook. I may say that the rate of pay for surveyors is greater of late years. Had we not increased the rate of pay we were likely to be left without good surveyors, and some time ago the pay was increased from $5 to $6.50 on the advice of the Surveyor General. We have practically all, or nearly, all the available Dominion land surveyors working for the department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In addition to their pay, these parties are found, they are supplied?:


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR..: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister proposes to survey 500 townships, most of the work to be done under contract. But, practically, there is no competition in that work, because the hon. minister fixes the pay that is allowed for prairie sections, wooded sections, and so on. So, it is difficult to ascertain what the ordinary cost of subdividing these townships is.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This has all been Worked out carefully by the Surveyor General. He has not only his own experience to go by, but he has the results of survey work in that country for the last twenty-five years, showing just what it costs in different cases, so that he can work out schedules for the several sections.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are the surveyors who work under contract found also ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When a surveyor takes a contract, he furnishes his own supplies. But, when he is under daily pay, the government finds him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the land surveyed pretty well taken up ? For it would appear that the government is mapping out a very large summer's work-500 townships.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend will see that we have not mapped out more than is necessary. Five hundred townships would give only 32,000 homesteads, and we had 31,000 homesteads taken up last year. Practically the surveys are getting pretty closely run. It is difficult to keep ahead of settlement. But it is important to keep ahead, for most unsatisfactory results follow if settlers go in in advance of the surveys. The people get on odd numbered sections, or school sections, two men take up the same quarter-section, and in many other ways most unsatisfactory conditions arise.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is partly curiosity that induced me to make these inquiries. I have some remembrance of a strong criticism made against the old government for surveying too much and spending too heavily. The hon. minister is asking now about three-quarters of a million for surveys this year. That, I think, is very much more than ever was asked for this service before. In connection with that is the fact which is disclosed by the minister just now, that we have a lot of surveyed townships already, because a portion of that is to be taken for retracing these lines. He did not tell us how much of this expenditure would be incurred in that work. We find that $10,000 of this is for the purpose of inspecting surveys. Is that inspection to be done at Ottawa or to be done in the country, and what is the necessity for that inspection ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: A portion of this money is to be employed in renewing the obliterated marks of previous surveys. There are two parties now at work, and it is estimated that they will be able to renew surveyed lines in about thirty townships, at an average cost of about $5 per mile. I -may say that so far back as the time of the government of the Hon. Alexander Mackenzie, mistakes were made in pushing surveys where they were not necessary, and surveyors were sent out during a number of years to survey lands which did not need to be surveyed. We have never got any value from some of those surveys. I do not mean to say that the largest portion of the work is to be characterized in that way. but I say that a mistake was made in the beginning. I do not think that any of the ministers in particular were to blame, because they were acting under the advice of their officers who were supposed to be familiar with the country. But there is no doubt that they did survey quantities of land which were not fit for settlement. We find ourselves that it is a difficult matter and requires careful examination and supervision to select the land that ought to be surveyed. We have an inspector of surveys and an assistant inspector, who make a careful inspection of the land that they think ought to be surveyed. Mr. Pearce, now the inspector of surveys, is a very old officer of the government, and I regret to say that he has applied to be placed upon the retired list. He is a very competent man. He and hisi assistant came down here early in the session and went carefully into the whole subject with me, and made recommendations to the department as to the land that should be surveyed. I am satisfied that we are not surveying a particle more this year than is absolutely needed for settlement.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it the policy of the government to select in each locality only such land as will be required for settlement, and to leave patches of unsurveyed land ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, Our policy is to select lands that we think the settlers are likely to desire to settle upon. Settlement is moving forward in^ certain districts, and when our officers report to us that settlers are going to certain districts, we take measures to survey the land so that it may be ready for them when they wish to make their entries.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I did not understand how the minister determines that amount of pay that is to be given.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We act absolutely upon the advice of the surveyor general. We do not pretend to know anything about it, and rely entirely upon the officers of the Survey Department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Who fixes the price to be paid per mile for every survey that is made ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Governor General decides it on my recommendation, and I make my recommendation on the advice of the surveyor general.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much is allowed for supplies to those who are engaged by the department ?
The MINISTER! OF THE INTERIOR. I am informed that fifty cents a day is allowed to each man for maintenance. That is all they get, except the salary.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: My hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Roche) made a couple of motions for returns which I understand have not yet been brought down. Perhaps the attention of the minister has been drawn to them. They ought to have been before

the House before this. They had reference to the odd sections of lands that X believe are reserved for settlers going into the country, the other sections being granted to the Manitoba and Saskatchewan Railway Company. His motion asked for the price 'being paid per acre. I cannot understand that any such sale should have been made, because I do not see any authority under the law,to allow the minister to do it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Does my hon. friend say there was a motion for a return ?


John Graham Haggart: Yes. It must have been on the Order paper for eight or ten weeks.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Then my attention has not been called to it. Is the hon. gentleman sure it was not a question ?


John Graham Haggart: There was both a motion and a question.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If it is a return, I will have it brought down to-morrow, because it can be prepared in a Short time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would just like to say in connection with the amount of money being paid for this work to-day, while I am not objecting to it, because it is pretty costly to live in that country, I have a very distinct recollection of strong complaints being made because the late government paid $5 a day for their surveyors while the present government, whose friends so strongly objected to it, sit in the House today and are quite willing to defend paying $6.50 a day, showing that the rigid economy for which they were so noted in the past evaporated, when they got on the treasury benches.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is a growing time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And that was in a new era of the country when transportation was difficult and expensive and the cost of living was high. Surely, with the settlement of the country through the lapse of years since then, provisions ought to be a little cheaper, transportation ought to be a little cheaper and a little more convenient, and if these considerations were an ample justification for the expense then, that reason does not exist to-day. But, notwithstanding that fact the government are paying very much more for this service. The hon. minister says that this is a growing time. Well, it seems to be a growing time in most lines except in cabinet ministers. In that regard there appears to be a shrinkage lately and I am inclined to think there will be other experiences of the kind described by Artemus Ward when he said that when one commences to go down hill it would seem as if all nature had been Hon. Mr. HAGGART.
greased for the occasion to let you slide. I think they will find it so in their exjieri-ence as well.


Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).: I see that there is a vote of $13,000 for surveyors for irri gation purposes. I would like to know what has been done in the past in regard to surveys for irrigation purposes.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Irrigation surveys have been carried on for a considerable number of years. If my recollection serves me right they were begun some time about 1891 or 1892; at any rate, some years before I took office. They were carried on for a number of years under the supervision of Mr. J. S. Dennis, who, under the late government, was the inspector of surveys, and who held the position which is now held by Mr. Wm. Pearce. Mr. Dennis shortly after I took office, resigned and became the deputy commissioner of Public Works under the North-west Territorial government. The surveys had been carried on for a number of years by Mr. Dennis and as he was a most competent person, in fact, practically the only man in the service who had a knowledge of the subject, I made aD arrangement under which, while he remained the deputy commissioner of Public Works in the North-west Territories, and was not really in the service of the federal government, he should supervise the irrigation work and the work of the staff. That plan has been carried on and it has been found a very desirable plan to follow by reason of the fact that irrigation in the North-west Territories is controlled by legislation which is administered to a considerable extent by the local officers, and ft is desirable that we should act with the officers of the Territorial government in administering our irrigation survey work. We have voted $13,000 per year for irrigation surveys and a very valuable amount of information has been collected. A very extensive system of records has been prepared, although, of course, that does not by any means exhaust the possibilities of procuring information in that vast country; yet a substantial beginning has been made. Thanks very largely to the interest, enthusiasm and ability of Mr. Dennis we have succeeded in laying the foundation of a very thorough system of irrigation surveys.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Have there been any irrigation works carried out ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, irrigation works have been carried out and if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Smith, Wentworth) will consult legislation upon this subject he will find an Act of this parliament which provides the method under which water rights can be procured. We have provided a method by which we can sell lands to applicants who desire to irrigate the land. Parties make application to the local authorities to get irrigating rights

and then they proceed to do the work. I could not at* this moment give my hon. friend the statistics in regard to the amount of irrigation that has been done. That can be easily procured if my hon. friend is desirous of having it. We have not given any government assistance directly in the way of bonus for the purpose of doing irrigation work. We have contented ourselves with acquiring information and written records in regard to that work by procuring surveys to be made, so that when parties desire to do irrigation work they can get the necessary information in regard to levels and the flow of water and that sort of thing by consulting the irrigation officers. One irrigation project has been to some extent carried into effect near Calgary. Another very large system of irrigation has been carried into effect by what is known as the Alberta Irrigation Company, the president of which is Mr. E. T. Galt, of Montreal. They have 100 miles of a water course. I have had the pleasure of seeing this work and it has practically transformed the whole district through which it runs. Large settlements have been brought in and people are going in there now. It is in the neighbourhood of Lethbridge. If my hon. friend has paid any attention to the reports from that part of the country he will have seen that as a result of this irrigation scheme, which is about to be extended, a large settlement has been brought into the neighbourhood of Lethbridge and a beetroot sugar factory has been started on a large scale, with the result that we shall not only have farming but manufacturing industries carried on to a very considerable extent. I think the result is directly due to the inauguration of irrigation work by the government some years ago.
Dominion lands-chargeable to income-commissioner's salary, $3,000.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
I will give a general explanation of the charges in the vote for Dominion lands.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Who is the superintendent of mines ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Dr. Haanel.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He is in the department here '!
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes. As to the increase of $12,000 in the salaries of inspectors and so on, I may say that since these estimates were made up there has been such an unprecedented tide of immigration that it was impossible to keep the work up with the existing staff,-and so others had to be employed. There is a vote of $8,000 in the supplementary estimates and the same explanation will apply to that.
Inspector's expenses, travelling expenses of commissioner, superintendent of mines and
homestead inspectors, contingencies of Dominion lands and crown timber agents and at head office, removal expenses, stationery and printing, &=., $37,100.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How do you determine what amount is to be paid in travelling expenses.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In all cases at present we pay actual expenses. They have to return vouchers for every dollar expended. Formerly they were allowed so much per day for expenses and I think the homestead inspectors were allowed so much per year. But now we require vouchers no matter how small the amount, except it is in the nature of a payment for which a voucher cannot be produced and then the inspector requires evidence, that the money was paid and he audits the accounts and they are afterwards submitted to the Auditor General.


Mr. LENNOX.: What is meant by removal expenses ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If an officer should be removed from one district to another and if under the Order in Council we are liable to pay his moving expenses it is paid out of this money.


Haughton Lennox: IIow is that Order in Council regulated ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
If he gets an increase of salary on account of removal he does not get his expenses but otherwise he does.


Haughton Lennox: Would this item cover the case of a person who is appointed to a position in the Yukon from Ontario.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No.


Haughton Lennox: What is the practice of the department in that regard ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR,
My deputy informs me that the expenses are not paid except in the case of an officer who was in the service here or in some other part of the country who is sent out to a distant place. In the case of a man being newly appointed to the service his expenses are not paid.


Haughton Lennox: I do not think there is much objection to that.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the minister be good enough to explain what the removal expenses are ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is an increase in this vote altogether of $4,000. The items that are paid out of it are the homestead inspectors' expenses, forest rangers' expenses, the travelling expenses of officers of that branch of the department, like the Commissioner of Dominion Lands, removal and attendance expenses of officers of the outside service,

printing and stationery for the Crown lands and timber agencies, expenses for temporary assistance at the agencies when any is required, and a small amount paid for commissions on permits, where commissions are allowed by the department.


Robert Laird Borden: What are the duties of the homestead inspectors ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The homestead inspectors have to report generally upon every item of information that is required by the department. But their primary and most important duty is to see to the performance of the homestead duties required by the Dominion Lands Act from homesteaders. No homesteader can get a patent for his land until the homestead inspector has made a report to the department after a personal visit to the homestead. He is notified from time to time by the land office of the applications for patents as they come in, and then he visits the homesteads of the different applicants, takes the necessary affidavits, and makes his report with the evidence to the department. This is laid before the Commissioner of Dominion lands, and the application is approved or otherwise.


Robert Laird Borden: About how many homestead inspectors are there ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Nineteen at present. I may say that the Commissioner of Dominion lands reports to me that it will be absolutely impossible for him to keep up the work with this number, and he has recommended that we should have at least three or four more.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose their duties take their whole time ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They work under the Inspector of Dominion lands, at Winnipeg, and under the rules and regulations they have to account to him for every day of the year.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: Will the hon. minister explain what duties are performed at the Dominion lands office at Winnipeg, and what lands are disposed of there ? If one wants to buy land, has he to go to the Winnipeg office ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Winnipeg office is not different from any other land office.


Samuel Hughes: Is it not more expensive to keep up than the Edmonton or the Calgary office ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I fancy it is. That is owing to the interminable complications that have arisen in connection with the patents for river lots along the Red river. There is a vast amount of work done at the Winnipeg office in connection with these that is not done at other offices. Officials have been Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
kept there under considerable salary for no other reason than that they knew the location of the river lots, and knew how they were drawn. The administration of the law with regard to these river lots is very tangled and very difficult, and is proportionately expensive.


Samuel Hughes: I notice a large sum down for surveys. Is the minister doing anything in the country beyond Edmonton, towards the Peace river ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not very much. We have one party there, but that is all. The policy of the department is not to do very much in that direction. My hon. friend is familiar enough with the west to know that some people have the notion to go as far away as they can. It is the policy of the department to get the nearest land settled up first, and I do not think it would be wise for us to survey the Peace river country when there is so much land nearer that is yet unsettled.


Mr. BENNETT.: I find in the Auditor General's Report L-25 and continuing on. probably a dozen pages, many entries of payments to different parties for services in inspection of lands or as land guides. These run into thousands of dollars. Does not every surveyor, after the completion of his work, deposit in the department an accurate description of each section of land ? If that be the case, every land agent at these different points should be furnished with a schedule describing these different sections. If access can be had to these, why is it necessary to send out guides witn the settlers ? Not only are fees paid to those so-called land guides, but hundreds of dollars are paid for livery hire. That must give the hon. minister an immense amount of patronage to distribute among his friends.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is true that the surveyor furnishes an accurate record to the department of his, surveys and it is also true that the local agents of the Dominion are given that information. Not only is that the case, but we have small printed mails giving copies of field notes. But I may say to my hon. friend, that does not at all take away the necessity of giving constant assistance to incoming settlers in the way of locating them. A stranger not accustomed to travelling on the prairies and to our methods of survey, is very hopeless when he gets to locate, and we have found one of the most pressing needs of immigration work to be the furnishing of efficient guides to locate the settlers. It is quite true that the hiring of livery rigs places in my hands a considerable amount of patronage, but if my hon. friend had to administer it. he would find that with three or four livery stables in a small town all wanting patronage, he would have considerable difficulty

oil his hands, and I should be quite willing to transfer that particular patronage to my bon. friend. But these guides are absolutely necessary because the average settler, unfamiliar with our system of survey, find it totally impossible to discover his section.


William Humphrey Bennett: What is the usual practice ? Do the settlers first go out with the guides aud look over the lands and then come to the office of the agent to see where that land is ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is managed through the immigration commissioner at Winnipeg. In certain districts the land agents are given the services of guides. When a settler comes to the land oflice and asks for a guide, a guide is sent out with him. Sometimes a guide is sent out with a party of people. The commissioner is governed by the circumstances. There is no fixed rule, but the object is to assist new settlers to pick out the land they want with the least possible expenditure of time and money.


Samuel Hughes: The coloured township maps now issued do not show the quality of the land, and one has to go to the field to find that out. It would be just as easy to have the quality of the land described on these maps as not.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I thought that was done. It used to be done.


Samuel Hughes: It is not done. The general characteristics of the country are marked but not the quality of the land. When a man pays fifty cents for a map, he wants to get all the information possible out of it. Many persons in Ontario and elsewhere, who wish to select an area in which to settle, do not know the parts already homesteaded and the parts where they may take out homestead entries. It would be easy for the department to issue parti-coloured maps, showing the sections still open for homesteads. All the railways now issue section maps.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That would be very difficult. The result would be this :	A man would get his map
and see a certain piece of land marked upon it open for homestead. He would travel four or five hundred miles for the purpose of location, and then find somebody else there. He would then have a bill of damages against the department. The bill might be unreasonable, but the man would ask the department to pay it. Such claims would be coming in constantly.


Samuel Hughes: Does lie ask the Canadian Pacific Railway to pay it ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Canadian Pacific Railway is not the government.


William Humphrey Bennett: How much approximately was paid out for these so-called land guides ? One man, James Thompson, drew no less a sum than $714 ; another $274, and another $126. These items are found all through the report. When a man buys from the Canadian Pacific Railway, he simply takes advantage of the field uotes furnished him. Do the settlers go out in the first instance with the guide to see the land or do they first locate on the strength of the report in the department office and then go out with the guide ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are no absolutely hard and fast rules. When a settler comes to the laud office for information, the land agent shows him the reports and tells him to go out aud locate his land, but he does not know how to get there, and when he does get there, he does not know whether he is on a railway section or where he is. I can assure my hon. friend that there is no part of the service in connection with immigration and land office work that. is more absolutely essential than the sending out of guides to assist new settlers to locate. If it were not done, we should find the settlers congregated about the railway station or the land office, not knowing where to go or what to do.


William Humphrey Bennett: It seems very odd, if we have an intelligent people going into that country, that such assistance should be necessary. When they go into the office and are handed a map-as they must be if they inquire for one-and the direction is indicated in which they are to look for their land, I should think it would be easy, with the simple system of surveys that is carried on in the North-west (all the lands being in squares) to locate their land. I have never done work of that kind, but I have been told repeatedly by men who have bought lands from the Canadian Pacific Railway that they go to the office and get the field notes, showing where these lands are that are available. They go out of their own accord and find no difficulty in locating the land still unsold. Then they come back, compare their notes with the notes in the office and decide whether or not they wish to purchase. Can the hon. minister tell me how many thousands of dollars have been spent last year approximately, on these so-called land guides 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am not able to give the hon. gentleman a correct statement now, and an incorrect statement would be worse than none. But I will be able to give him the facts in a couple of days. I will have a statement prepared. With regard to the information he has received, I have known my. hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) a considerable while and consider him a man of reasonable capacity in these matters. But I venture to say that if he had to go and pick out land, hav-

ing no guide and only the information given him in a land office to go by, he would be a long time finding his land. I may say I tried it myself. I do not profess to have a very extraordinary degree of knowledge on these matters, but I have lived long enough in that country to know something of the difficulties. The ordinary man not familiar with land hunting and land examining is almost helpless when he goes out on the prairies, so far as finding any particular piece of land is concerned. My hon. friend from North Victoria (Mr. Hughes) is familiar with that country and I have never spoken to him on this subject, but I venture to say that if he is asked he will corroborate what I say. There is nothing I am surer about than the absolute necessity of this class of service.


Haughton Lennox: Has the government the land for sale, or only land for homesteading ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is against the policy of the department to sell, generally speaking. Until three or four years ago sales were made from time to time, but not of an important character. But even small sales are discontinued and are discouraged by the department. Exceptions are made in special cases. For instance, a man may have lost his homestead through being financially unfortunate. If he could not acquire another farm upon terms within his reach, he would go out of the country and would be lost to us. In such a case, if an application is made and the facts are proven before our officer, we may sell a quarter, section at a low figure-$2 or $3 an acre. Land not of good quality is sold at as low as $1 an acre. These sales are always in the case of actual settlers, to give a man the same chance as would be given him by allowing him to take up another homestead. The law does not permit a second homestead, so we attain some degree of flexibility in the management of the land by having the sales made in this way. Or, sometimes, men who have engaged in ranching make application to buy small quantities of land; I may say they generally want as much as they can get. Sometimes, owing to changes going on in the country the rancher's property would be destroyed if he were not able to protect himself by purchasing the land. A man may have started a cattle industry and put up buildings and find that he is running his cattle on the public domain. Unless he can get some basis for the industry he would be wiped out. In a few cases of that kind, after looking into the matter carefully, we sell small quantities of land. I think three sections is the most we have sold to one purchaser, and that only after careful investigation. There is a vast quantity of land in the odd numbered sections in the hands of railway companies and land companies, and any one who wants to buy land Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
can buy it-there is any quantity for sale. When we are asked to sell land, our ordinary answer is that we cannot sell, but if the parties wish to buy they can buy it from the companies.


Haughton Lennox: Has the government been making sales of large quantities of land '!


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Only in one case, the one to which, no doubt, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lennox) refers- except in connection with irrigation work. In connection with these works, we have sold considerable quantities. The only other sale of large quantity is that of which I speak, the sale to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company, to which reference was made by the hon. member for South Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart). While I was away, the officers of the department made an examina-tin of an area some 250,000 acres, in what was regarded as an arid and practically useless section. The land was sold at .$1 per acre, upon settlement conditions. I will bring down full particulars before my estimates are fully disposed of.


Samuel Hughes: Does the minister, or does the government, take any cognizance of the construction of roads in the North-west ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have not any vote for the construction of roads in the estimates this year. I do not remember that we have ever had any such votes except on one or two occasions. When money was voted for roads in the northern portion of the country. If I remember well, we once voted money for the construction of a road in the Peace River district in the neighbourhood of Dunvegan, which was constructed under the supervision of the Commissioner of Public Works for the North-west Territories. Then four or five thousand dollars were voted for a road near Green lake, west of Prince Albert.


Samuel Hughes: I would impress upon the minister the necessity of constructing roads, or assisting in constructing them by increasing the grant to the territorial government. As my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) knows, there are many places where the settlers have long distances to haul their grain, and the roads are very bad. It would answer the purpose as well if the money were handed over to the territorial government and they were encouraged to build the roads.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will go into that somewhat fully when we come to the vote for the North-west Territories.


Samuel Hughes: I do not know whether it is exactly germane to this vote, but I notice that in the list of amounts paid over to various denominations in connection with the half-breed schools in the North-

west as given in the Auditor General's Report, some teachers receive very low salaries, and others very high salaries, comparatively speaking.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the hon. gentleman able to tell us how much land is still available for settlement by means of homestead. entries in the four organized territories ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will give that information on some other item later on.


Samuel Hughes: The hon. gentleman will find the items I mentioned on pages L-40 and L-41. The amounts are not nearly the same. The point I make is, Why is there a discrepancy in the sums paid to the various teachers ? Why are they not all paid the same amounts ? The hon. gentleman will notice that the Protestant schools get comparatively small sums, or nothing whatever, $100, $50, $75. $200 ; whereas the Roman Catholic schools get $400 and $500.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This vote has always been administered by the Lieutenant Governor of the North-west Territories. There has been no change. We grant a certain sum of money, and the Lieutenant Governor distributes it in assisting schools in the unorganized districts. This department has never had any supervision over it.


Samuel Hughes: But the minister has received a report of the administration of the money ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, I have a report; but it only shows what is paid in the unorganized districts each year, the grant payable to each school, and when last paid. Nine of the schools are Episcopalian, 12 are Roman Catholic. No other denomination is represented. I would gather from the statements that the difference in salary is due to the fact that some teachers are employed a longer time than others.


Samuel Hughes: I think the minister should look into this matter a little more closely.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Protection ol timber lands in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, and tree culture in the North-west Territories, $25,000.
' Mr. TAYLOR. The vote last year was $15,000. Would the hon. minister kindly explain the reason for this increase of $10.000 over last year's estimate ? I would like the hon. minister to explain what benefits we are receiving from tree culture.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I may say to my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) that the increase is caused by an increase in the scope of the work. We started in a comparatively small way and we are operating in a comparatively small way yet, and I am only sorry that we have not been able to ask for a larger amount of money to be devoted to this purpose. I may say to my hon. friends that if they read the report of the superintendent of forestry explaining that work they will understand what has been done. I am told that he appeared before the Committee on Agriculture and explained very fully the scope of his operations and therefore it is unnecessary for me to repeat the statement here.


Mr. WILSON.: I suppose the hon. minister refers to Mr. Stewart ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Uriah Wilson: I did not happen to be at the committee, and I would like to hear what Mr. Stewart's salary is and what his duties are ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The salary is $2,500 a year. There has been no change in his salary since he was appointed. His duties are to supervise the work of the forestry branch which is divided into two classes. One class of the work consists in the preparation of material for tree planting; that is to say young trees delivered to farmers in different parts of the prairie country are planted under the supervision of the inspectors or supervisors appointed for that purpose. The other division of the work consists in taking such steps as may be found practicable for the purpose of preventing the origination and spread of fires. I may say that this is a class of work which might be with great advantage considerably extended and the reason why it is not considerably extended is due to the fact that we do not feel like asking for a larger appropriation. Hon. gentlemen will see that $10,000 out of the $25,000 we are asking for is for the payment of fire rangers in different sections of the country. I am told that last year the work of the fire rangers appointed by this branch of the service saved very large quantities of timber which unquestionably would otherwise have been destroyed, and I fancy there is no vote in connection with the service of the Department of the Interior which more fully justifies itself in the saving of property which forms part of the public domain.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What portion of the vote is for tree culture and how is it to be spent ? I did not have the opportunity of being at the Agriculture Committee.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: $10,000 is for the salaries of fire rangers

and there will be, perhaps, $2,000 or $3,000 additional out of the $25,000 spent in other ways in connection with the prevention of fires. About half of the vote will be applicable to the work of the preparation and the planting of trees.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Will the hon. minister tell us the modus operandi in regard to the growth and distribution of trees? Do you furnish trees free to the farmers ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have plantations upon the Experimental Farms at Brandon and Indian Head where large quantities of young trees are grown to an age- suitable for transplanting. These young trees are handed over to farmers who apply for them and who agree to plant them under the directions which are furnished by the forestry branch and under the supervision of the officers appointed for that purpose. During this spring over a million young trefes were delivered to those who applied for them.


Samuel Hughes: When Mr. Stewart was before the committee he admitted that at the rate these trees were being given out it would take a long time to re-forest the North-west.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is a large country.


Samuel Hughes: Mr. Stewart tacitly agreed that trees selected from a bluff adjoining a man's home would answer the purpose as well as the present system. I would suggest to the minister that the fire law in relation to the burning of scrub timber lands might very well be inquired into. In Assiniboia and the southern part of Alberta, only possibly the southern part of Saskatchewan, apparently the present fire law is very proper, but in the northern part of these territories it would be a great blessing if a good fire would sweep over the country and burn the underbrush which varies in size and density and which has to be cleared by the settler with even greater labour than confronted the early pioneers of Ontario in clearing the forests. I would suggest that the minister might inquire whether the regulations may not be amended in relation to the fall fires in the extreme northern part of Alberta and Saskatchewan.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 
Mr. TAYLOR.: I would suggest to the minister the advisability of trying to grow hickory trees in the North-west. It is a timber which is very largely used in Canada now and the supply has become almost entirely exhausted.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The trees best adapted for the North-west are the soft wood trees, such as cotton wood, poplar and Manitoba maple, which grow well and are excellent shade trees. I think it would be useless to try to get hickory to grow.


Mr. OLIVER.: I was somewhat astonished to hear the hon. member (Mr. Hughes) asking that the regulations respecting prairie fires in northern Alberta should be relaxed.


Samuel Hughes: Not prairie fires; wood fires.


Frank Oliver: Well wood or prairie fires, because if a fire spreads in the prairie it does not stop when it gets to the wood. I do not know how far the hon. gentleman's suggestion is likely to be acted upon by the minister, but having been a member of the North-west Assembly for a number of years, I can say to the House that the question of preventing as far as possible fires of all kinds from running in any part of the country and particularly in the wooded and partly wooded parts of the country, is a subject that has occupied the attention of the North-west Assembly ever since I have known anything about it. If the wood is small or if it is scarce it is all the more necessary that it should not be dsetroyed by prairie fires. If there should be regulations as there are for the preservation of the wood so that it shall not be cut wastefully by settlers, surely it is a thousand times more necessary that it should not be destroyed by uncontrolled fires. I do not wish to engage in a controversy at this particular stage of the game, but I cannot allow the suggestion to pass without a most emphatic protest and to say to the minister as representing that part of the country, that I

would most strongly urge not only that tlie present restrictions be maintained-of course he has no control over them-but that the present means of maintaining these restrictions over which he has control be rather improved and enlarged than otherwise.
The MINISTER OF THE( INTERIOR. In reply to my hon. friend, I have now before me the report. It was written in August of last year, and refers to the work of the spring of 1902 :
This spring ninety-one applicants were supplied with trees from Indian Head, the total number of seedings and cuttings sent out being 106,000, consisting of 33,256 maples, 53,648 cottonwoods, 2,000 elm and 17,096 willow cuttings.
The following is an estimate of stock at present growing in the Indian Head nursery :-
Maple	   350,000
Ash	 225,000
Elm	 50,000
Scotch pine, one year old	 25,000
European larch, one year old ..	18,000
White spruce, one year old.. ..	5,000
Native birch, one year old.. ..	500
Total number of plants.. ..	673,500


George Taylor: Allow me to suggest to the minister that he recommend to the gentleman in charge at Indian Head that he try some of the other hardwood timber. Where ash and elm will grow hickory will grow, and it is one of the most valuable timbers, and one of the quickest growers. We are to-day importing into Canada very large quantities of hickory from the United States. We cannot get it anywhere else, the supply in Canada being exhausted. If the department could make a success of growing hickory, nothing more valuable to the country could happen than to plant some of those untold acres in the North-west with hickory trees. In twenty years from now we would have a supply for the manufacturers of this country, and save importing it from a foreign country. It would be worth trying at any rate, to see whether or not it would be a success.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I am glad to have this suggestion from my hon. friend, who has a practical knowledge of woods required for manufacturing purposes. I have a strong idea of the value of this work, if the farmers of the country could be induced to take it up. The amount we can do ourselves is of course comparatively small; but if we can induce the farmers of the country, who have unlimited ground, to engage in tree planting, and to plant that class of trees which will be economically valuable, I am satisfied that we shall accomplish a great thing for the country. I am glad to have my hon. friend's suggestion, and I will see that it receives full consideration.


Samuel Hughes: I do not like to run foul of my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver), but I wish to say that what I had reference to was not timber land,
but land covered with scrub. Wherever you find a clump of scrub, you invariably have early frosts in the fall and late frosts in the spring; and many of the settlers in northern Saskatchewan and in many parts of northern Alberta would be delighted if some relaxation in the restrictions with regard to fall fires might be allowed, so that they might get the land cleared of scrub, and relieved of the dampness and consequently of the early fall frosts which are caused thereby. I believe in preserving the timber lands at every cost; but this scrub is absolutely useless for fuel, and it is an almost impossible job for the farmers to get rid of it.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What limitations are there with regard to giving out these seedlings ? Can any person anywhere in the North-west or in Manitoba get all he wants ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes. The trouble has been to induce the farmers to take them at all, and look after them. Of course, if the demand became large, the agent would exercise his discretion and not give a larger number to one man than he could look after.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I quite appreciate the advantage of giving them out as an object lesson, to induce the farmers to purchase them in the future; but I would suggest that there should be ultimately some restriction imposed. I imagine that when the farmers of the North-west find that they can get these seedlings free and in unlimited numbers, in a short time there will be such an enormous demand for them, that it will be a great tax on the government to supply them. It seems to me, too, that it is rather unfair that the farmers of one section are furnished with these seedlings free, while the farmers of another section are not. In the United States, the government for a time sent out free seeds. At first there was not much demand for them; but presently the giving out of free seeds not only became a great burden on the government, but an intolerable nuisance.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If a general demand arose, the natural result would be that people would go into the nursery business on a large scale; and as soon as that cbndition of affairs arose, the government would cease to supply the trees, and leave the work to private enterprise.


Uriah Wilson: A year or two ago, Mr. Stewart, before the Committee on Agriculture, said that if any person wanted trees to plant and made application for them, the government would send a person to look at his farm and prescribe the kind of trees that would be best suited to it, and would lay out a diagram in a rough way as to how they should be planted. That diagram would be sent to Ottawa, and in

the following year the inspector would go out and see what had been done. I would like to know if that plan has been carried out ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think, generally speaking, it has. I would not say that there are no exceptions.


Uriah Wilson: Is not that a very expensive modus operandi ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Of course, it is expensive. The expenses consist in sending a man out to see that the planting is properly done. There are scores of cases where farmers have tried to plant trees in absolute ignorance of the methods that ought to be adopted ; and after a few years, some of these trees are half dead and others completely withered. The principle of this has been to furnish an object lesson and that is necessarily expensive.


Uriah Wilson: I could quite understand this being done in districts, but Mr. Stewart left the impression on the minds of the committee that if any one applied, an inspector would be sent down to view his soil, make a rough diagram, send that to Ottawa and get a regular plan made, then plant the trees, and the following year inspect them.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 1 do not think the intention was to send an inspector out to make a diagram before any trees were planted, but that a diagram would be sent showing how the trees should be planted, and then the inspector would be sent to supervise the planting.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose your travelling foresters are paid their actual expenses 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is nothing paid except the actual expenses, for which vouchers are furnished.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see an item here of a pullman and state-room for Mr. Stewart, $131.25. Of course, these gentlemen must travel in state as much as possible, and I presume these things are not put down at lower than cost. There is another item of $839.49 for printing in connection with Dominion lands, protection of timber.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have to get notices printed showing what the law is with regard tp allowing fires to run, and these notices have to be printed on a special kind of paper, and are rather expensive.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where are they printed ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: At the Printing Bureau.


Mr. BLAIN.: When did the department begin giving out the trees referred to, and to what extent have the farmers taken advantage of that policy ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My recollection is that three years ago we Mr. WILSON.
started with our first vote of $15,000, and the vote has been $15,000 per year since then. I do not think I could give a better idea of the result of the work than will be found on page 10 of the Report of the Department of the Interior.


Richard Blain: I think that Mr. Stewart made the statement before the committee that it was almost impossible for the department to furnish sufficient trees to supply the demands of the farmers ; but if I understood the hon. minister, the difficulty with the department was to get the farmers to plant the trees.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend may have referred to the difficulty experienced at first. It was only towards the end of the second year that we decided upon fitting out these plantations. I am informed that the supply is equal to the demand, but no doubt the demand will grow rapidly.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Is a man sent out to show farmers how to plant the trees and lay out the ground ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That rule is not always followed. Where the farmer knows sufficient himself, we do not send any one to teach him.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Suppose an inquiry came 200 miles distant, would the minister send a man that distance ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The applications would come in early in the season, and the superintendent would de-vide his staff and use his judgment as to where he would send them.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: As there are only two centres, there might be some points many hundreds of miles away from them, and it would be an expensive job.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In that case we cannot do it.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Printed instructions might be sent out which woujd be quite sufficient. That is all the farmers in the east require. With such instructions, it is not more difficult to plant small seedlings than any farm crop.


Mr. COCHRANE.: It appears to me a pretty expensive job. I do not know why the farmers in Manitoba and the Northwest should not be able to plant seedling trees. In our section of the country we buy our apple trees, at pretty high prices too, and we have no government official running around to tell us how to plant our trees. A man who is capable of running a farm ought to have intelligence enough to plant trees. In addition, we have an inspector, if what my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) says is correct, travelling about superintending this work, and he travels in a pullman car.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: With a state-room.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Of course. And we do not hear anything from the supporters of the government about it. But I can remember the time when, if one of the members of the government I had the honour to support travelled in a pullman car, the fact was heralded from one end of the country to the other, and one would have thought that these lion, gentlemen on the other side would lose their senses at such an extravagance perpetrated by a member of the government. Even the cab-hire of the leader of the government, Sir John A. Macdonald, was criticised. And now the inspector wh i is to teach the farmers of the North-west to plant trees is not satisfied with travelling like an ordinary mortal, but he must have a pullman car and a state-room.


Mr. SCOTT.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cochrane) seems to think it peculiar that this work is carried on in Manitoba and the North-west, and in no other province V


Matthew Henry Cochrane: No, I do not.


Thomas Walter Scott: That is what I gather from his remarks. He said that the farmers in his part of the country had to buy their own trees at pretty high prices-


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I said that they bought trees that were expensive, and they did not have a government official running around to tell them how to plant them.


Thomas Walter Scott: The hon. gentleman says the farmers in his section buy their own trees, and the inference, as I suppose, is that the farmers in the North-west ought to buy theirs.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I did not say so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cochrane) was referring to the planting of the trees and the intelligence required in that work.


Thomas Walter Scott: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) will permit me-I would like to point out that the conditions in the Northwest are not similar to those in the older provinces. The Dominion government owns all the public lands in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, and it does not own the public lands in the other parts of Canada. That is a reason why, if this work is done for the preservation of forests and the encouragement of tree planting, it should be done by the authority and at the expense of the Dominion government.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Are these trees being planted upon public lands ?


Thomas Walter Scott: A part of this expenditure is upon government lands for the preservation of the forest. What I rose for chiefly was to protest against the useless waste of time in asking questions such as have been | asked this evening, the answers to which 1
would be known to hon. gentlemen if they would take the trouble to read the report of the superintendent of forestry. I have here that report for 1902, which gives specifically the answers to many of the questions that have been asked with regard to the carrying on of the work. For instance, as to whether the department is going to be able [DOT]to supply the demands which come from the people for trees. At page eight of the report I find the following :
In the spring of 1901 a beginning was made by furnishing forty-four settlers, who had their ground prepared, with seedling trees. In all 58,800 trees were sent out at that time.
In the spring of 1902, 415 settlers were supplied, the aggregate quantity being 468,900 trees	There are in all 1,006 applicants whose land is being examined . this season with a view to planting next spring.
Applications are now being received from those who desire to have their places examined next season with a view to making preparation for receiving trees for planting in 1904. . . .
The matter of being able to supply the applicants with seedling trees has been one of some concern, and fears were expressed that it might, be impossible to meet the large demands that would be made. I am glad, however. to be able to report that the nurseries established by this department at the Experimental Farms at Brandon and Indian Head through the kind permission of the minister and officers of the Department of Agriculture, will furnish over 1,000,000 trees for transplanting next spring. In addition to these we will probably have 150,000 maples and Russian poplars from Mr. Caldwell, at Virden. So it may be safely assumed that all applicants who have their ground properly prepared for next spring's planting will receive their full complement of nursery stock.
There Is a complete answer from the report to several of the questions that have been asked ; and I venture to say that the report contains specific information, answering practically every question With which the time of the committee has been taken up this evening.


Richard Blain: Perhaps the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) will allow a question, as he seems so conversant with these points ? Perhaps he can tell us what portion of the money has been spent on private property, and what on public property in respect to the planting of trees ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I have to admit I am not very conversant with these matters, and cannot answer the question. But I have no doubt the hon. gentleman will be able to obtain an answer from the minister. My principal objection to this vote is that not enough money is being spent upon this object. I consider It, and it is considered by all the peole of Manitoba and the Northwest, as one of the most important objects with which this parliament has to deal affecting that part of the country. The pity is that practical work was not begun sooner. This is not a new subject, and the present plan is much more economical and effective,

in my opinion, than that followed by the late government in years gone by. For this is a subject that did not entirely escape their attention. They endeavoured to encourage tree planting by allowing men to gain the title to their homesteads and also to the pre-emption of an additional 160 acres, which, in former years they were allowed to obtain. That plan was much more expensive than the practical and effective plan adopted by the present Minister of the Interior.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: The House, I am sure, is muqh delighted with the information obtained from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott). It appears to me that he wishes to be a second epistle of the Minister of the Interior. I suppose he is moved by the legitimate ambition of at one time filling the position of Minister of the Interior. The hon. gentleman was good enough to criticise the opposition for occupying the time of the House. I am within the judgment of the House when I say that the hon. gentleman has occupied more than his share of time in elaborating his views and giving us information that amounts to nothing when he gets through with it. He must be well satisfied with himself, and I am sure the Minister of the Interior is delighted that there is a second epistle to himself in this House ready to afford us information whether he has it or not. I did not offer the criticism that the hon. gentleman thought I did. He must not put words in my mouth that I never used. I did not object to the country spending money in furnishing trees, what I objected to was sending out officials to tell the farmers bow to plant the trees, and I referred to tli? fact that in Ontario we have to plant our own fruit trees, that cost us a good deal of inoney. I do not see why the farmer in the North-west, if he has brains enough to farm, should not have brains enough to set out a few trees when they are furnished him by the government. I object to the unnecessary expenditure of this gentleman travelling in pullman cars. I find in looking over the Auditor General's Report that there is one gentleman who has got a ' span of ponies. I would ask the second epistle of the Minister of the Interior whether it is shown in that report that some gentleman has got a span of ponies at $225. He is not only travelling in state in the pullman car, and state-rooms, but he has got a span of ponies that cost the country $225. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if I could find that in this report. I think the whole thing is absurd, and when people will read it they will fay, great Scott, what is this country coming to ?


Thomas Walter Scott: If the hon. gentleman wants information about a span of ponies and thinks there is anything wrong in this officer having a span of ponies, we have the


Thomas Walter Scott: Public Accounts Committee and other committees who are appointed to deal with such questions. Surely the time of this House should not be taken up with discussing questions of no more importance than this.
I protest against the way in which, for the past three months, the time of this House has been recklessly wasted by hon. gentlemen day after day and night after nigut. One night we were kept in session until nearly half past seven o'clock in the morning, and,what was the discussion about ? The list of questions in the census schedules which I presume every person in Canada had already seen. I protest against hon. gentlemen wasting the time of the House in such manner.


George Taylor: I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman is not talking to the question before the Chair. He is accusing hon. gentlemen of obstructing. I do not know of any person who is doing it more effectively than he is doing it himself.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I think there are quite a number who are not speaking to the resolution, and I would advise hon. gentlemen to get back and discuss the merits of this item. I appeal to them all to keep a little closer to the question under consideration.


Richard Blain: The only difference between the other side of the House and this side is upon the question whether the public money should be expended on private property. Our side of the House do not make any complaint against an expenditure of government money to supply trees to farmers in the western country ; but what we 'say is that it is not proper that the government should expend money in sending out an official to examine the land, and then sending him out again to help plant the trees in order to beautify a farmer's property. I may say to the hon. gentleman that when Mr. Stewart was before the committee he submitted a plan and distributed it among members of the committee, showing the different ways in wRich different properties should be' laid out. That gentleman told the committee that when a farmer made application for trees, the department sent a man out to find out what kind of land he proposed to plant the trees upon. That was the first expense, and that is something we object to. After he had found out what kind of land the farmer had, and what kind of soil, the department then sent him out to assist in laying out that property and in planting the trees. That is an expenditure-that we are objecting to. We know that in that country it is not easy to grow trees, and we do not at all object to the government supplying the trees. We would go so far as to say that when farmers apply for trees the government should keep-an abundant supply on hand so as to furnish every farmer who applies for them. But what'we do object to is in the governt>7 85

ment, first of all, sending officials out to inspect iiie property, and after supplying the trees, to assist the farmer in beautifying his property, a private property which ought not to be improved by public money.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think the hon. gentleman seriously objects to this item. I mav say that tree planting in the North-west was practically unknown a short time ago. The system has undergone a considerable amount of improvement, and we have reason to hope that by following out the plan we are at present pursuing the result will be to encourage tree planting to a considerable extent throughout that country. Generally speaking, the principle of expending public money on private properties is, of course, indefensible, but the hon. gentleman will understand that this is done only temporarily and to a small extent.


Uriah Wilson: I took the same ground before the committee when Mr. Stewart was before us that I do now. I do not object to the government giving the trees, but I think it is altogether too much to send a man out to inspect the ground, to make a diagram of it. to send the diagram to Ottawa, and have the plan sent back, and then after the trees are planted to send a man out again to inspect them. I objected to that then, and I object to it now.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice in the Auditor General's Report, L

91, an item for 300.000 cottonwood trees at $375. Do you buy your cottonwood trees in the western states ?
The MINISTER OF THE INi . .	.
These were bought in Dakota. We are raising some now.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Can you not get these trees in Canada ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think we can get cottonwood trees in Canada. Some of our nurserymen in the North-west say that only cottonwood trees grow well on our prairies. I remember the question was discussed when the Minister of Agriculture introduced legislation to prevent the importation of trees from the United States, on account of the prevalence of the San Jose scale. My recollection is that the nurserymen of Manitoba were of the opinion that the only cottonwood tree that could be got to grow in the North-west was that which came from North Dakota.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The cottonwood tree is raised here as well as in Dakota. The only question is as to whether or not it has been grown here. If the department is going to continue the planting of these trees I would suggest that an arrangement be made to grow them in Canada.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They will grow just as well in the nurseries 213
of Manitoba and the North-west Territories as in Dakota. I am not able to say why it is they have not planted cottonwood on the farms.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice in these items money paid out for the purchase of horses and in connection with trading horses. I do not see any credit showing what has been done with these animals.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: What page ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Page L-90, under Dominion Lands.
Team of pony mares, $225 ; team harness, half set, $15 ; freight, $91.19 ; single harness, $35 ; curry comb, brush, &c., $1.35.
In another place I find
Lodging and horse feed, $375.15 ; fountain pen, $4.50 ; fountain pen, $3.
They seem to be supplied with everything. What is done with these horses ? Do they give them away when they are through with them ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: These items are for horse hire, I suppose.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is for the purchase of horses and trading horses.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. Ross, the assistant superintendent, has a horse and Mr. Stevenson has a horse. The others all hire horses where they are required.


Uriah Wilson: What was Mr. Ross' business before he undertook the work of superintendent of tree planting ? I understand he was just a farmer who had lived in that country for a while ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. Ross is a gentleman who had previously devoted himself before coming into the department to the study of forestry. He has a special education on these lines.


Uriah Wilson: Where did he live ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My recollection is that immediately previous to his coming into the service of the department he was at Toronto. I cannot at this moment give the record, but Mr. Ross devoted himself especially to the study of forestry. He had studied it under specialists in Europe, having gone there for the purpose, as a scientific education in forestry cannot be procured on this continent. After having spent some time in Europe, Mr. Ross returned and continued his studies under Dr. Schenck, one of the most eminent foresters in the world, who is in charge of the Vanderbilt estate in South Carolina.


Uriah Wilson: What is his salary 1


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 


Uriah Wilson: That is not very high for so highly educated a man.


OOMMONS
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Talking about horses, here is one item.


Woodrow.  W. A.@: services, October 15 to December 31. at $75. $191.13 ; board, lodging and horse teed, $93.50 ; horse-hire, 1105.50 ; fares, $7.80. $397.93.
I do not know whether these horses are owned or not, but in several instances throughout this report-not in connection with this service-horses are bought and traded and so much given in trade, $15 in one place and $35 in another place. Then, there is ' horseshoeing, $2.70.' and another item ' shoeing horses, $3.75.' Take a case like this.
Wodrow, W. A.: horse-hire, $105.50-
and
-'lodging and horse feed, $93.50.
That is $198 for two and a half months. It seems to me to be an awful figure.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. Woodrow is a nurseryman. He had $75 a month while he was working and we paid his expenses while he was travelling in the service of the department from October 15 to December 31. During that time he paid $105 for horse-hire. If my hon. friend was travelling through the country and had to hire horses he would have to pay that much. I know I would; in fact I generally have to pay more. 1 do not think the amount is excessive.


Peter Macdonald: Carried.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Before we pass to the next item the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) asked me before six o'clock to give an approximate statement of the amount of land that is available in the organized portions of the North-west Territories for settlement. I want to guard myself in making this statement because it would be difficult except after a very elaborate and careful calculation, to give a statement that could be regarded as accurate. I can only give a very rough approximate statement, but still, even speaking in that sense, one which I think will be of some value to the members of the committee. The total area of land in the organized districts of the Northwest Territories is 230.000,000 acres. There have been disposed of in homesteads and pre-emptions, roughly speaking, about 18,000,000 acres, and there have been given to railway companies, colonization companies, &c., by way of grants of one kind or another 58,000,000 acres. That leaves a balance of 154,000,000 acres. I would deduct from that 54,000,000 acres of land that is not fairly fit for settlement, either land which is covered with water or of a rough and broken character; so that, roughly speaking, we have 100,000,000 acres of land still available for settlement in the organized territories.


Uriah Wilson: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What do you mean by organized territories ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I mean the territories which have been by Act of this parliament organized into districts-Manitoba, Eastern Assiniboia, Western Assiniboia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. North of that country we have the unorganized districts of Athabasca and Mackenzie.
Military asylum pensions, $168.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have the explanation of this vote here, and I wish to mention it, so when it comes up in connection with some other department the explanation will have been given. This is a small item but sometimes questions are asked about it. It is made up of three or four small pensions which are provided for by 44 Victoria, chapter 18.
Maintenance, construction of roads, bridges and other necessary works in connection with the Hot Springs reservation near Banff station, Northrwest Territories, $22,420.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much money was spent out of the vote last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It was all spent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can you give us the items of expenditure last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have not the return showing how the money was actually spent.


Richard Blain: How much money has been spent on that park up to date ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I cannot say.


Richard Blain: How many acres in it


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is in the form of a triangle, the side on the British Columbia boundary being about 130 miles and the other about 115 miles long. We have added what is called the Yoho park which is in British Columbia and although technically not a part of the same park it is under the same administration. We own the land and have the sovereign right in the North-west Territories, but that part on the British Columbia side is held by the federal government as private owners of property in the province. The universal report is that the park is a source of great pleasure to travellers. The number of visitors has greatly increased, and when I was there, in the month of December, a year and a half ago, I was told that the hotels had been so filled at the close of the season that they had to send word ahead that they could not accommodate any m re visitors. The Canadian Pacific Railway has since increased its hotel accommodation, and last year we erected a museum and office where visitors may gather and obtain information. There are over 100 miles of

constructed roads in the park; we have 36 or 37 buffalo, and they are being successfully bred ; we have a small herd of elk and of moose. It is our intention to have a collection of animals there. The superintendent of the park is a very efficient officer, and I think we get very good value for what money we spend.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How will the appropriation of $3,000 for the baths be expended ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: One of the attractions of the park is the medicinal springs which are very curative in rheumatic diseases. A small fee is charged to the visitors for the use of the bathing house, and these fees pay the superintendence of the bath to a considerable extent. It is proposed on account of the increasing number of visitors to increase the bath house accommodation.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I must congratulate the minister on the expenditure. I can assure him that, if it is properly spent, it is well needed. The old bath-house was rather a disgrace to the country, and I am very glad to know that the minister has put a small sum in the estimates to improve it.


Mr. INGRAM.: Will the minister say who the caretaker is, and how many employees there are at Banff Springs ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are four regular employees :	Mr. Howard Douglas, superintendent ; Mr. Ellis, caretaker of buffalo ; Mr. Galletly, caretaker of cave and basin ; and Mr. Sanson, curator of the museum at the office building. Any other persons whose names appear in the Auditor General's Report are paid in a temporary way. They are not permanent officials.


Uriah Wilson: I understand that there is a splendid hotel at Banff run by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and that there are baths in connection with that hotel. The question is why we should keep public baths there instead of leaving that entirely to private enterprise. There may be some reasoti that I do not know, but I have not heard any yet.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The baths of the Canadian Pacific Railway hotel are for the guests of the hotel. The baths of the department are patronized by a great many people who do not care to go to the expense of stopping at the hotel. As a matter of fact, the greater number of patients who go there for treatment take up their residences at cottages in the neighbourhood, where the expense is not so great as at the hotel, and they make use of the government baths, which are intended for the use of the public generally.
Construction of roads, bridle paths and other necessary works in connection with the Yoho Park reserve, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Yoho park is in the same valley as that portion of the Banff park where the buildings are and through which the railway runs. It is practically a continuation of the Banff park. I may say that in that park there have been discovered very considerable natural beauties, the presence of which had not been suspected until the last year or two. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company went to considerable expense in bringing over Alpine mountain climbers to make explorations, with the result that very large glaciers were discovered in the vicinity of the railway track. They will form a great attraction to the park, though quite inaccessible except to mountain climbers. We are taking steps to construct roads and bridle paths to make these natural beauties accessible.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: The minister appears to have a herd of buffalo in the park, I believe the only herd that there is in North America. Is it increasing ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, very satisfactorily. We are quite satisfied with the experiment we have made. We started with a herd of about 19, and we have now 35 or 36. At some places, of course, the buffalo will not thrive, and it was more or less of an experiment to take these to the Banff park. We got sixteen or seventeen head from Lord Strathcona. They had been at Silver Heights, near the city of Winnipeg, but they had not done well there. We also got three head from Mr. Thomas Blackstock, of Toronto, who contributed them on my promise to attempt to establish a herd. We established the herd, and provided a large enclosure for them, and they have been thriving and doing very well.
Cost of investigation and demarcations and other astronomical work of the Department of the Interior, $58,000.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase of $17,000 in this item. Perhaps the hon. minister will be good enough to explain the reasons of the increase.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is a service carried on under the supervision of Mr. W. F. King, the chief astronomer of the department. The increase simply means that more work has been done: The increase is not an indication of a more expensive service, but that more work is being done. The details of the estimate this year are :
Operations on the 49th parallel west of the Rocky Mountains including salaries of the surveyors and assistants engaged thereon	$45,000 00
Salaries in office other than those included in above item	 10,680 00

Pacific cable longitude (part)	$ 2,000 00
Other astronomical work	 2,000 00
Travelling expenses	 1,000 00
Books, stationery, photographic materials and office contingencies.. 4,320 00

Less amount to he provided for in supplementary estimates, 1902-3.. ..	7,000 00
$58,000 eo
49th parallel	 45,000 00
This work is to be proceeded with under the agreement between the British and the United States governments. It will consist of running a line and cutting out a vista throughout, ^cutting the necessary tmils, making a triangulation to measure the distances, making a topographical survey of the adjacent country, taking necessary astronomical and other observations, and the purchase and placing of iron monuments instead of the existing mounds of loose stones.
The estimated running expenses of
the panties are	$25,000	00Salaries of surveyors and their professional assistants	
10,000	00Monuments.. ..	
10,000	00


Robert Laird Borden: Is this the work of the delimiting of the boundaries ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes, the 49th parallel.


Robert Laird Borden: Carried on in connection with the officers of the United States government ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much work have you got done ? Mr. King has been there some years at work. What distance of delimitation have you accomplished ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
I could not say how far, but I will give an exact statement to-morrow.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What sort of monuments are these iron monuments V Are they such that they cannot be moved easily ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
They are iron posts set in a square stone block, which is embedded in the ground. The monument is about four feet above the ground.
Astronomical observatory for telescope and apparatus, $5,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that the observatory you are building here ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Yes, on the Experimental Farm. We had a great deal of trouble finding a suitable site. It was difficult to get a site sufficiently elevated, so that the view from the tower would not be obstructed. Other considerations also had to be taken into account.
The site had to be a place where the oscillation caused by railway currents would not affect the setting of the instruments.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The railways pass close to the Experimental Farm.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Quite far enough away not to have any effect.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is a good deal of discussion in the press about your moving the observatory from Toronto.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is the meteorological survey, which is under the Marine Department.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Has a telescope been bought, and at what price 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes ; about $15,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the diameter of your lens and the power of your instrument ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My impression is that it is a 12-inch lens.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That would be very small.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I relied upon the chief astronomer.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It could not be very strong with only a 12-inch 'lens. It is not the height of wisdom to put up some commonplace telescope, because it must remain there a credit to the government or otherwise ; and before you could change it, you would have to remodel the building.
THE MINISTER OF THE [DOT] INTERIOR. I told the chief astronomer that I thought it would be false economy to buy an instrument which would have to be changed, and impressed upon him the selection of an instrument which would not be required to be changed.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Where was the telescope purchased ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In Cleveland. In our chief astronomer we have a very able officer. He started as Dominion land surveyor in 1873 or 1874.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was he attending to the boundary survey ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He was British commissioner under the treaty of 1892. He is now in England, and will be there until the argument in connection with the Alaskan boundary is over. He is an expert officer and thoroughly posted. His presence there is necessary. I was remarking to the committee that in Mr. King we have one of the ablest and most competent officers of the government. I have no doubt that his judgment with respect to the apparatus is perfectly good.


Hon. Mr. SIFTON.: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No doubt it is; lie is a good man. How much is it expected the observatory will cost when completed ? What has been done besides purchasing the instrument ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The building is under the Department of Public Works, and I have nothing to do with it. We took a vote last year for the purchase of the instruments. We have done nothing of any account in this respect, except the purchase of the telescope, which cost $15,000. This is a vote of $5,000 for miscellaneous apparatus.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: When does tlie hon. minister expect that the observatory will be finished 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I cannot say. I have been pressing upon the Department of Public Works the necessity of proceeding with all despatch. Since coming back from England, I have not had time to make inquiries about the matter, but I believe the work is progressing. I have no doubt it will be finished within a few months.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I have been credibly informed that the building will not be finished within two years. The foundation has been laid, but it will be a somewhat expensive building. The hon. minister says the telescope was bought a year ago and $15,000 paid for it. What kind of political economy, or any other economy, does he call this-paying $15,000 for a telescope three years before it is wanted ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I can only say that the order for the telescope was given a year and a half ago, and my deputy tells me that it has lately arrived. If the building has not arrived at the same time, I am not directly responsible. The Department of Public Works have received their instructions, and I can only hope the building will be finished as soon as possible. Had we waited until the building was up before ordering the telescope we might have had the building a year or two ahead of the telescope.


Samuel Hughes: I see by the newspapers that the observatory is to remain in Toronto.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is the meteorological observatory.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The telescope will cost $1,800 in interest before it is brought into use-three years' interest on $15,000 at four per cent.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is one of the difficulties arising through not having everything under one department.


Robert Laird Borden: Does this complete the cost of equipping the observatory 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think so. I had a discussion in England with the astronomer with regard to this particular Item, and this vote will be sufficient. Of course, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) will understand that an observatory or a laboratory is never completed. A scientific man can always find something more that he wants. But, for the present, this is enough.


Robert Laird Borden: It will equip it completely until the next vote 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not know whether the hon. minister answered my question as to the total cost jof the building and equipment.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I can only say that the contract for the building was $75,000, speaking from recollection. There was a vote of $15,000 last year for the equipment, and $5,000 now, making $20,000 for the equipment.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That makes a total of
about $100,000. Did I understand the hon. minister to say anything about a laboratory in connection with this establishment 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, I only made the remark that when a scientific man has a laboratory or observatory he can always find something more that he wants for its equipment, therefore, I would not say that the observatory would be completely equipped with this amount.


Samuel Hughes: On the subject of meteorological reports, has the hon. minister taken any steps to extend the collection of these reports so as to include the remote parts of the North-west and British Columbia 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have nothing to do with the meteorological service, that is under the direction of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.
Miscellaneous-'costs of litigation, $11,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that a similar amount to this was voted last year. How much of it was spent 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The report of last year has not been made up. In the year previous, we spent $1,938. \Ve have a number of cases coming up this year, which will involve a considerable amount of expenditure for legal fees, and I presume the Department of Justice will require the Department of the Interior to pay the Bills after they are taxed, and we shall perhaps spend $10,000 or $11,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I regard it as a bad plan to provide a lot of money for litigation. In almost every department a large sum is voted for this purpose. If you put it there

it is almost sure to be spent. We have a Department of Justice with a pretty large staff, and one would naturally suppose that they would attend to a good deal of the work required to be done, but the amount placed at the disposal of each of the departments is almost sure to be distributed amongst the lawyers or hangers-on of the government.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: What my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) says, is generally speaking, perfectly true. If you put a sum of money to the credit of the service, the tendency is for them to spend it. But in this case, the amount voted really has no effect upon the amount actually expended. When this litigation arises, the costs of the litigation, if they are payable by the government, are taxed by the Department of Justice, and we have to pay them. When the Bill becomes due we wait till the end of the fiscal year and take an estimate for it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are asked to pay this money, and we have no information regarding the services performed. It seems to me that there is a large amount of money paid out for very little work.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend will have to talk with the Minister of Justice about that, because that does not belong to my department. The present item is merely for the purpose of paying legal expenses in suits arising in matters belonging to the business of the Department of the Interior. The expenses have to be certified by the Department of Justice. If anybody brings a suit in which the Department of the Interior is defendant. if there are any law costs payable, we have to pay them. The litigation is conducted by the Department of Justice and the costs are certified by the Department of Justice. I understand the rule is that we do not require to pay the eosts of the opposing party, but we have to pay our own costs.


Richard Blain: On page L-50, I see an item ' Amount paid to F. W. Howie, New Westminster, $1,000.' What is the explanation of that item ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: A dispute arose in British Columbia in regard to some timber land. A man named Genelle sued the Crown for damages, and the amount mentioned here, $1,000, was paid to the Justice Department for Mr. Howie, to meet the disbursements in connection with witnesses, fees and expenses.
I do not know whether the suit has terminated yet. My recollection is that it has not yet been brought to trial. We have been advised that we have a good case.


Mr. MONK.: Would the minister give us some details of this sum of $1,000 ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, It is money that was paid by the Justice ^ Mr. SPROULE.
Department to their agent at New Westminster to pay for his services in connection with this suit. I suppose the Department of Justice will sooner or later have the details. If the details have come back and been returned to the Auditor General's office they will appear in his report. When the vouchers come back the items will appear in the Auditor General's Report.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was Mr. Howie your solicitor in New Westminster -who attended to the case ?
The MINiSTER OF THE INTERIOR. I presume he is the agent of the Department of Justice. The litigation is conducted by the Department of Justice.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There must be vouchers of some kind for this expenditure.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: ; There will be of course. When the department pays the money we are required to tile a detailed statement with the Auditor General, accounting for that money. If the department lets it go for a certain length of time and the Auditor General thinks it is an unreasonable time, he calls upon us to account for that money.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That does not enable us to get any information. We apply to the Minister of the Interior and he refers us to the Minister of Justice or to the Auditor General. We want some details of what was paid. We have no information of what the disbursements were.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The reason why the details are not given is because the action has not arrived at that stage when the Auditor General requires this money to be accounted for. If it is desired to get them before the matter reaches that stage, the only way will be, if a report has not yet been received from Mr. Howie, to get the Department of Justice tq write' to him for it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The Auditor General's Report is over a year old. surely by tnis time somebody' must have the vouchers. They must be in the possession of some department, otherwise the business must be done in a remarkably loose way.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Not only that, but even in this ancient document, the Auditor General's Report for 1902, there is an expenditure of $1,000. Now we are asked to vote $11,000. It seems to me we ought to have every detail of such a large vote, especially when it is for litigation.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If the hon. gentleman wishes to have a list of the suits which are pending, I have not got them in my hands, but I will get them to-morrow.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Are there several suits or .just one 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are several. Some I know of myself. I cannot remember, speaking from memory, all of them.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: In the Auditor General's Report for 1902 we only seem to have paid $1,000 for the case of Genelle vs. the King.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There have been several suits within the last year.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I am afraid of the devil's claw.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are three in connection with Dominion lands and one or two that came from the Yukon. If the hon. gentleman desires it I will give him a list of them. I cannot do it now because I do not have it amongst my papers.
Expenses of government in district of Kee-watin, $2,190.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What do you spend this for ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: As my hon. friend knows the lieutenant governor of Keewatin is the lieutenant governor of Manitoba. He holds that additional office. He has a private secretary with an allowance of $600, and a clerk with an allowance of $480.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What duties does the lieutenant governor perform ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He is supposed to inform himself generally as to what is going on in that territory. The territory is practically uninhabited except for the presence of 200 Indians in it. It is necessary to have some supervision over it and the practice that has been followed for many years has been that the lieutenant governor of Manitoba has been appointed for that purpose. He has to make one trip every year and he makes a report to the government as to what is going on in that section of the country. There are many matters that require the attention of the government.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there any such report in the possession of the government now ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It will be found in the report of my department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have been told that some lieutenant governors do not visit the territory at all. but that they get the money all the same. Is there any information to that effect in the possession of the hon. minister ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not remember whether he went last year or not, but I know he went the year before. I remember reading the report
carefully at the time it came in. He says in his last report:-
In making my annual report upon affairs in the district of Keewatin during the past year,
I am glad to be able to say that no occurrence calling for special notice has taken place during the year. Circumstances have prevented my paying an extended visit through the district.
I have, however, come into communication with and met some of the missionaries, the principal Hudson's Bay Company's officers and others who carry on trade in the territory, and have thus kept in comparatively close touch and been made well acquainted with the condition of the native population during the past year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much of the vote did he use up last year-the whole of it ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How did he expend that amount if he did not go there ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The amount is made up in this way :-
One clerk, $4S0 ; salary of secretary, $600 ; department printing and stationery, Ottawa, printing, &c., $23.22.
That is all of the expenditure.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It seems to me that it would be better if this money is employed, properly no doubt, in paying the secretary of the governor that we should say so.
Expenses of government in district of Kee-aatin.
There are no expenses there. It is S600 for a secretary and $480 for smnp one else and $23 for stationery. Would it not be better to put it in the vote in that way ? I appeal to you, Mr. Chairman. What is the use of dissimulating and why should we vote $2,190 to cover expenses which last year amounted to $1,103 ? It is not much, but it is for the principle that we are combating.
Maintenance of lunatics from Keewatin, *2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought you had nothing there but a few Indians. Where do you get the lunatics from ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Indians occasionally go crazy and we have to take care of them.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many are there in the asylum and where are they kept ? Are they kept at Brandon too ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Last year we paid $744.10 to the Brandon asylum for the maintenance of three lunatics.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How did you come to know there were any out there if nobody ever visits the district ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The year before last the lieutenant governor did visit it. The lieutenant governor exer-

cises a general supervision. He gets information from traders from the Hudson's Bay Company, and from clergymen as to what is going on. If he hears of any lunatics they are brought down.
Maintenance of assay office at Vancouver, $17)0Q0.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This vote is for the salaries and expenses in connection with the assay office at Vancouver.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have you any report of the work done during the past year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The work is somewhat less now than it was, on account of the change in the mode of collecting the royalty. Full details are given in part 6 of the annual report of the department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What revenue was received from the office ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no statement which shows a revenue under the operations of last year. The method of computation is very complicated. Tli? principle upon which we established the office was not to make any charge for the work done, because we wanted to secure the business in Canada rather than have it to go to Seattle.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you not make any charge at all ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not last year, but I understand the superintendent is making a small charge this year. I cannot say how much it is.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: According to the Auditor General's Report, the expenditure was $21,000 last year, and, as the salaries are rather small, most of that was spent in installation. If you have not any more installation to do, I cannot understand why you want $17,000 this year. The salaries would only amount to $6,000 or $7,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The salaries amounted to $7,850 ; rent, $1,200 ; banking commission, $1,000 ; and incidental expenses, including gas and stationery and many other things, $6,850.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Is this office to be a permanent charge on us of $17,000 a year, against whicn we are to get no revenue ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is more or less experimental for the present. We proceeded with it largely in contemplation of the fact that we would establish a mint, and the handling of the gold is a somewhat complicated process, so that it was necessary to establish an assay office in order that we might have some experience before we actually engaged in minting. The change in the method of collecting the royalty has decreased the business to a consider-Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
able extent, and the government have to consider the course it would adopt if the mint was not proceeded with immediately, and at the present time I am not in a position to say just exactly what course will be pursued.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Are the assay offices in other countries run free of charge ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The assay office at Seattle is managed practically on the same principle.
Engraving, lithographing and printing maps of the Dominion and the North-west Territories, $15,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is this something new ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is for maps which it is desired to issue during the coming year, consisting of :	engraving, paper printing, &c..
5,000 copies of Ontario map (3 sheets) $2,000:	printing, paper, &c., maps of
Manitoba, Assiniboia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, 5,000 copies of each, $1,500; engraving, paper, printing, &c., 10.000 copies of three sheet map of Manitoba and North west Territories, $45,000; engraving, printing, &c., 5,000 copies of British Columbia railway belt map, $2,500; and $5,000 for the purpose of beginning on the preparation of what is called an economic atlas of Canada. It is a work which I think will commend itself to the judgment of the House. It is to be prepared under the supervision of the geographer of the department, who has been engaged during the last two or three years in connection with the large map of Canada which has been lately issued; and which I think the members of the House will agree is a work urgently needed and supplies a very serious and long felt want. It is now proposed to have compiled an economic atlas of Canada, that is to say, an atlas which shall as far as possible exhibit the natural resources of the country. The work will be very extensive, and will incorporate the following, utilizing the plates of the large and small maps of Canada as far as possible, thus reducing the cost to a minimum; an economic edition of the large map in blue and black, only adding to this in large lettering, mineral signs for mineral occurrences, notes regarding, agricultural and timber resources; a geological map; a relief map, showing the elevation of surfaces: a map showing canals, with details of each; maps showing telephone and telegraph lines, lighthouses; agricultural diagrams, showing the productions in different parts of the country; diagrams of exports; navigation diagrams; maps relating to population; and generally such economic information as can properly be put into a book of that kind. For the purpose of preliminary expenses in connection with the enterprise, we are asking for $5,000 this year.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is in charge of that work.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. James White, the geographer of the department. He was for many years connected with the geological survey, and on the death of the former geographer, he was transferred to the Department of the Interior. The large map of Canada was prepared under his supervision. He is a very competent and able officer. This $5,000 is to be devoted to getting together the material for the atlas.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The bon. gentleman mentioned a large map of which he wanted a large quantity. What is the object of them ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: For general distribution.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There has been a very large distribution already, has there not ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Of the large map I think we distributed 5,000. A considerable improvement was made in the second edition. Of that there has been as yet only a very small distribution, but 5,000 were ordered. I may say that my view, which I trust the members of the committee will endorse, is that a map of that kind should be as generally distributed as possible. The cost of printing a map, after the information is all compiled and the work done, is comparatively small, and it seems to me the department could do no better work than to disseminate accurate information regarding the country in that form. My bon. friend would be surprised to know the inquiries that we get for these maps, from school inspectors down to the smallest school children. I think the distribution of a first-class map of Canada, giving detailed information, and showing the geographical features of the country, is among the most valuable work the department can do. I have given instructions therefore to be as liberal as possible in the distribution of the map.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I believe in that. There are a great many of the expenditures of my hon. friend's department that I would find fault with more readily than with this one. Who has charge of the work of printing these maps ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The printing of this map was done by the Toronto Lithographing Company. That is
the only firm in Canada which has a staff of copper engravers. There has never before been a detailed map of the whole of Canada issued. The maps of the whole of Canada have hitherto been sketch maps. But this is a detailed map on which the attempt is made to give all the geographical information which would be given in a map of each province. In order to accomplish that, it is necessary to do fine work, which must be done by engraving on copper. Some years ago the Toronto Lithographing Company brought to Canada a small staff of
copper engravers, and they are practically occupied with the work given to them by the government. They are doing the work under the direction of Mr. White, the geographer.
Government of the Yukon Territory, $405,000.


Mr. BELL.: What is the large appropriation stated in the estimates as not required this year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is somewhat misleading as it will probably appear in the supplementary estimates. The information on which to base the item was not in the hands of the department when the estimates were being considered.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: With regard to item 192, I would ask the hon. minister if he would not reserve these votes, one of which relates to schools, in order to allow of our discussing


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It will not be necessary, because there is an item in the supplementary estimates dn which we can discuss the whole question.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think it would be better to keep this item. We have passed some very large votes for my hon. friend, and we might keep this item for a later date.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no necessity for my hon. friend to reserve it, because there is an item in the supplementary estimates on which he can discuss anything that can be discussed on this. So, we shall be in the same position.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I refer to the vote for the North-west Territories.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In both cases there are supplementary votes, and my hon. friend will appreciate my desire at this late date to get the main estimates through.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Very well.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The suggestion has been made that we should adjourn. As my hon. friends have been fairly liberal in passing these items, I think we have got as much as we can reasonably ask for to-night.
Progress reported.
On motion of the Minister of the Interior, House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.

Fkiday, July 17, 1903.