1903-07-29

[Stage Direction]
House of Commons Hebates

[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, July 29, 1903.

Fiscal Year.
1897..	..
1898..	..
1899..	..
1900..	..
1901..	..
1902..	..
1903..	..

Mr. CLARKE asked :: Pounds.
3,394,475
8,679,823
10,629,211
8,016,354
9,674,268
14,927,302
14,198,690


Mr.   D.@: HENDERSON (Halton) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 234) to amend the Bank Act. He said : The explanation is very brief. The object of the Bill is to limit the investing power of the banks by placing it, as regards foreign securities, largely in the hands of the shareholders.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


Mr. EARLE asked :: 1.	Has the government granted a lease to Robert Kelly and Frank Burnett of certain portions of False Creek, Vancouver, known as the ' Mud Flats,' as stated in letter of Robert Kelly and Frank Burnett to the mayor and aldermen of the city of Vancouver, dated May 13, 1903, a copy of which was brought down in answer to an address of the House of Commons, dated 4th and 5th of May, 1903 ; the terms of said lease being stated .in that letter as for ninety-nine years at a rental of $100 per annum, to be increased to $500 per annum, notwithstanding the resolution of the municipal council of Vancouver, protesting against such lease ?
2.	If a lease has not been executed, is it the intention of the government to grant a lease ; and if so, on what terms ?
What was the average price per pound paid each year since 1893 by the government of Canada for manilla used in the manufacture of binder twine at the Kingston Penitentiary 7


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon Charles Fitzpatrick).: I beg to reply :
1893		None	purchased
1894		$4 38 per cwt.
1895	
4	13	"1896	
4	46	"1897	
4	26	"1898	
3	71	"1899	
5	39	"1900	
None	purchased.1901	$7 54	per cwt.1902	
6	00	"1903	
8	75	"



TRANS-CANADA RAILWAY AND G. T. PACIFIC RAILWAY.

Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier).: Be fore the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the government what truth there is in the report which I find in the ' News ' of Toronto, of July 28.



TRANS-CANADA IS TO SELL OUT.

[Stage Direction]
Quebec Promoters to hand charter to the Grand Trunk.
To Safeguard Quebec.
Sir Wilfrid Reported to be looking after the Interests of his Constituents.
The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. R. PrSfontaine) :: 1.	No lease has been granted to Messrs. Robert Kelly and Frank Burnett.
2.	Matter under consideration.



BINDER TWINE.

Edward Frederick Clarke: How many pounds of binder twine have been imported into Canada from the United States in each fiscal year since 1897 ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. William Paterson).: The quantity in pounds
' of binder twine imported into Canada from the United States in each fiscal year since 1897 was as follows :-
Quebec, July 28.-Alderman George Tanguay, M.P.P., chairman of the Trans-Canada Railway Company, left for Ottawa this afternoon in response to a telegraphic message received from the Capital.
It transpires that the Trans-Canada Railway Company, realizing that their Pacific scheme is non est on account of the Dominion government adopting the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, has offered to sell their charter to the latter railway company.
They state that their only desire was to see a railway built from Quebec to Lake Winnipeg, through the northern section of the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, and if this is only accomplished by the scheme promoted by. the Grand Trunk Railway and hacked by the government, they will be absolutely content.
It is also learned from reliable authority that Sir Wilfrid Laurier is looking after the interests of the Trans-Canada directors, and la de-

756S
termined to see that their charter is purchased, so as to recoup them for all the money which they expended in surveys, &c., in connection with the scheme which the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway has made impossible.


The PRIME MINISTER.: What is the particular point on -which the hon. gentleman desires information ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I desire to know whether the government is making or has made any arrangement for the transfer to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway of the charter of the Trans-Canada, and the terms of such arrangement ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: The government has not made and is not making any arrangement for the transfer of the charter of the Trans-Oanada to the Grand Tru lk Pacific Railway.



SUPPLY-QUESTION OF PRIVILEGERAILWAY FACILITIES IN TWO MOUNTAINS.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) moved that the House again go into Committee of Supply.
Mr. J. A. C. ETHIER (Two Mountains).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair, I wish to draw the attention of the House and of the government to a question of the greatest importance which interests the county of Two Mountains and the neighbouring district. Every one admits that that part of the province of Quebec which borders on the Ottawa river from St. Andrews, in the county of Argenteuii, to Cartierville, in the county of Jacques Cartier, and which comprises such beautiful and thrifty parishes as 'St. Placide, St. Benoit, St. Eustache, St. Joseph du Lac and St. Dorotliee, is favoured with the most fertile soil and an exceedingly well-to-do and reliable community of farmers and business men.
Before the long and important work of this session is over, I think it is incumbent on me to recall to this House some of its actions in past years, as regards the county i represent, and to request from the government some help and efficient protection on behalf of the farmers of the county of Two Mountains and vicinity in the same way as railway charters are granted throughout the country and especially in the county of Two Mountains. Unfortunately some ili-advised or unscrupulous opponents, certain papers opposed to the government and to the member for that county have thought fit, a few days ago, to publicly announce that I was not in sympathy with the plan of building a railway through the counties of Argenteuii, Two Mountains, Laval and Ja'cques Cartier. I need not name those papers, as everybody knows ' Le Journal ' and ' La Patrie.'
I protest, Mr. 'Speaker, against the false statements and misleading comments con-Mr. MONK.
tained in the article of ' Le Journal,' dated July 25, 1903, under the title: 'The Monk Bill ' : and in ' La Patrie, ' of July 24, 1903, under the title * A Railway.' Notwithstanding what those papers say and print, I have always been, and am still in favour of building a railway along the location I have just mentioned.
But prior to the interests of individuals, prior to the interests of shameless stock gamblers and speculators, who unfortunately heretofore have made themselves conspicuous in the history of railroad building in Canada by the scandals and thefts which we know, there stands the public interest which the Railway Committee and the House are in duty bound to protect.
In perusing our federal and provincial statute-books, I have come across charters and subsidies granted to various companies : the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company, the Atlantic and Lake Superior Railway Company, the Great Eastern, the Montreal and Sorel, the Montreal Bridge Company ; and in all of these, I find as promoter, director, president or largest shareholder, a man known, unfortunately, throughout the country : C. N. Armstrong. And considering the use which has been made of these charters and subsidies obtained under that man's patronage, I can only congratulate the House and the government on having rejected all further application made by him.
The facts connected with the building of the railway from St. Andrew's to Lacliute, in the counties of Argenteuii and Two Mountains, are too recent, Mr. Speaker, to have been forgotten. It is known that Mr. Armstrong received $52,000 for the building of that road, seven miles long, and that, to the detriment of the public, he appropriated these $52,000, in order to pocket them, by abandoning a railway which had been in operation only a very short time, thus causing much trouble and great losses to that district. It is a matter of surprise, and the public may well wonder, that individuals of that stamp should succeed in securing the assistance of men of worth. Fortunately these speculators are known ; the Railway Committee and the House of Commons are acquainted with their achievements. Both the committee and the House have realized that as long as Mr. Armstrong^ w(as connected with a public undertaking of any kind, the matter could not be considered seriously ; and that was my ground for taking the stand I took recently.
I wish to state that I am most anxious that a railway be built between Grenville and Montreal. A section has already been built under a charter granted to the Grenville and Carillon Railway Company. I shall favour the application of any bona fide company having the means requisite for the carrying through of such an undertaking. But I am against the idea of leaving it to a man like Mr. O. N. Armstrong to carry

out. I Jeerned it part of my duty, as representative of the county of Two Mountains, 'to resist the proposal to put that prosperous district in the hands of such a man ; and so deep is my belief, that I would not hesitate in case of need to take once more the same stand.
In conclusion, I beg of the government to revote the subsidies already granted and lapsed. They are as follows :-
First, 49 Vic., cap. 10, p. 74, which reads :
' For a railway from St. Eustache to St. Placide, county of Two Mountains, 18 miles, a subsidy not exceeding $3,200 per mile, and not exceeding altogether $57,000.'
Secondly, 51-52 Vie., cap. 27, p. 98, as herewith : ' To the Carillon and Grenville Railway Company, for 12 miles of railway from St Eustache to Sault au Recollet, a subsidy not exceeding $3,200 per mile, and not exceeding altogether $3S,400.'
Thirdly, -55-56 *Vic., cap 5, p. 47, as herewith : ' For a railway from St. Placide to St. Andrew's, 8 miles, a subsidy not exceeding $3,200 per mile and not exceeding altogether $25,000.'
The first grant, that for $57,000, was voted in 1886, and revoted in 1892. By reviving that subsidy as well as the two others I have mentioned, the government would only be doing justice to the farmers of the eoun-nies of Argenteuil, Two Mountains and Laval, and would facilitate the building of the railway asked for by that part of the country. As I have already stated in this House and before the Railway Committee, the carrying through of this undertaking has become a necessity, in view of the remarkable progress and development which have taken place in these localities of recent years. I am confident that by so doing, that is by reviving these grants on behalf of any company having a charter and sufficient means or of any other company which might be formed and would offer the same security to the public* there would not be wanting reliable men, such as those with whom we are negotiating, who would be in a position to carry out the undertaking, and thereby, satisfy the just and legitimate ambition of the people of the county of Two Mountains.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I do not rise for the purpose of vindicating the papers which my hon. friend has criticised so harshly. I read the articles which appeared in ' La Patrie ' and ' Le Journal.' They comment on the stand taken by my hon. friend regarding the Bill which I had the honour to submit to the consideration of this House. Likely, the criticism contained in these articles reflecting on the stand taken by the member for Two Mountains (a stand which cannot be defended on any ground), was very much to the point, and on that account, and also in view of the uneasiness and discontent prevailing in his constituency, my hon. friend has thought proper to make a further
attempt to exxfiain his point of view, but without success.
The hon. member states that he is favourable to the building of a line of railway similar to that outlined in the Bill which I submitted to the consideration of the House. He was in favour and he is still to-day in favour of that line.


Joseph Arthur Calixte Éthier: (Translation.) X never said that I was in favour of the Bill introduced by my hon. frieiid. I stated before the Railway Committee,-and my hon. friend must remember,-that I would support the motion of the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), in order to enable the hon. member for Jacques Cartier to obtain the required information to answer the objections raised by Mr. Armstrong's name being mentioned in the Bill. That was on June 30th last. I stated before the committee that it was only fair that the promoter of the Bill should be allowed to get the information required by those who had put him in charge of it ; and I requested that the consideration of the Bill be postponed for a week, reserving my right to resist later on the application of its promoters.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) The hon. member stated that he had asked for time to inquire into the merits of the promoters of this Bill.


Joseph Arthur Calixte Éthier: (Translation.) I did not ask for time to inquire ; but I requested the committee to grant time to the hon. member, promoter of the Bill, to examine it and obtain information.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) At any rate my hon. friend reached the conclusion that tiie promoters of the Bill were shameless speculators. T am unable to thank my hon. friend. He considers me evidently 'as a shameless speculator. The same would apply to the hon. member for Laval (Mr. Leonard), who, surely, was interested solely as member for Laval, being anxious to have this railway go through his county. And the stigma would attach to the name even of the member sitting by his side ; the hon. member for*- Argenteuil (Mr. Christie) who supported the Bill.
Now, does my hon. friend contend seriously that the list of shareholders certified by tile secretary of the company contains the names of shameless speculators only ? Does he consider that Mr. McMullen, an American, who holds much the larger part of the shares, is a brazen-faced speculator ? Far from it, Mr. McMullen is a respectable citizen of the neighbouring republic, a man occupying a high position which surely puts him beyond the reach of my hon. friend. Mr. McMullen has had interviews with the government and with the right hon. the Prime Minister himelf, and I have reason to believe that he was very well received. If actually he was a man connected with all kinds of suspicious speculations, how is it

that not a word was said about it heretofore ?
The other gentlemen who are concerned in this plan which I submitted to the House are citizens of the United States, Messrs. Richardson, Stevens


Mr. SPEAKER.: (Translation.) I would call the hon. membei-'s attention to the fact that he is not allowed to discuss a measure which is not before the House.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) I am not discussing the Bill ; but I am going over the reasons which induced the hon. member for Two Mountains to vote against the Bill of which I was the promoter before this House. The hon. member stated that he had voted against the Bill because those interested in at were shameless speculators.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: (Translation.) I took it that the hon. member for Two Mountains was content with laying down the general principle, in stating that he was in favour of the building of a railway in that part of the country, provided the undertaking was in the hands of a bona fide company, and that he did not refer to the Bill which the hon. member for Jacques Cartier is discussing. I must call the hon. member's attention to the fact that he has no right to discuss a Bill which has already been under discussion. I am confident that it will suffice for me to call his attention to the matter, and that he will readily comply with the rules of the House.


Mr.   MONXC@: (Translation.) But after my hon. friend from Two Mountains has stated that he was not in favour of a company made up of shameless speculators, it seems I might well be allowed to vindicate the perfect respectability of the promoters of the scheme. It is not my intention to discuss the merits of the Bill which I had the honour to submit to the House ; but I wish [DOT]to show that I was not acting for and in the name of shameless speculators, for these are the words which my hon. friend used just now.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: (Translation.) I must state the rule which forbids to re-open a former discussion. When a matter previously disposed of by the House is taken up once more, it seems clear to me that the rule is being disregarded. I state the rule, and I hope the hon. member will kindly conform to it.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) I willingly comply with your request, Mr. Speaker. In answer to the remarks made by my hon. friend from Two Montains, is it allowable, I say, to brand as shameless speculators men such as the hon. senator R. Thibaudeau, or Mr. Raphael, a reliable and thoroughly respectable business man of Montreal, and besides, an enthusiastic supporter of the Liberal party ? Mr. McLaren, manufacturer, is also one of the shareholders ; and Mr. MONK.
I am exceedingly surprised, as, no doubt, will be all the citizens of Montreal, when they learn of it, to hear my hon. friend from Two Mountains call this business man a shameless speculator.
My hon. friend may complain of what he terms the unfairness of the papers which have taunted him for his stand in the matter, but he will have difficulty in explaining his conduct in connection writh a Bill intended to benefit the county he represents ; especially when it is taken into account that the company which these gentlemen had formed undertook to begin the -work within a year and to finish it within three. Moreover, that company promised to comply with the requirements of the House regarding the amount of work to be carried out in the short space of a year.
I have given the names of the shareholders. I have shown that they are well known gentlemen. They are the only holders of shares, and my hon. friend has the proof of that. Under the circumstances, I fail to understand how my hon. friend has reached the conclusion that Mr. Armstrong alone was at the bottom of this scheme.
For it is for that reason, among others, that he refused to give his approval to that measure so important for his county. Today my hon. friend chatters about a man who was not a party to the Bill. My hon. friend has not given any proof of it ; he has not been able, in any way, to detract in any way from the value of the authentic certificate signed by the company's secretary-treasurer.


Mr.   ETLIIER@: (Translation.) The certificate referred to has, I understand, been contradicted by a sworn statement of the hon. senator Thibaudeau, contained in the report of the Railway Department.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: (Translation.) As regards the matter of this certificate, I must say that I fail to see how it can be properly taken up at present in this House. That matter has previously been discussed before the committee.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: (Translation.) I shall not discuss any longer, Mr. Speaker, the question of the certificate or its value in connection with the list of shareholders.
Now, my hon. friend appears to be very anxious that a line of railway be provided for his county. He states it is time that the government should grant subsidies for the building of a railway through his county ; it is time, he says, w'e should obtain from the Treasury a grant to build such a railway. How can he reconcile that proposition with his refusal to grant delay to a company which did not ask for any charter or grant from this House, but merely requested the power to extend its line already in existence, and which wmuld have run through his county as well as through those of Argenteuil, Laval and Jacques Cartier ?

It will be a rather difficult matter for my hon. friend to explain his inconsistent action under the circumstances.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Department of Trade and Commerce-salaries including Mrs. S. S. Cox at $650, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $12,800.
Contingencies, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $7,000.
The MINISTER OB' TRADE AND COMMERCE (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright). The committee will see that in salaries there is a slight reduction as compared with last year. The amount was $13,790, and it is now $12,800. The only increases are statutory increases of $50 each and one of $10 to a messenger. The reduction is chiefly due to the death of the late Mr. Nutting, who had attained the highest salary in his class. As to contingencies the amount is the same, but printing and stationery has been increased and sundries reduced.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions- ocean and mail service between Great Britain and Canada, $150,000.
Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the arrangement under which this service is being carried on ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: 
Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).: Is the entire sum paid for carrying the mails, or do they render some other service 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No other service. They carry freight in the ordinary fashion.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: 
Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No doubt, but she would not carry it as fast, and is not as good a vessel. I should greatly prefer to have four vessels of the size and class of the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian ' than those we have.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the speed of these two vessels 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Fourteen knots is the average speed of the ' Bavarian ' and ' Tunisian.'


Edward Frederick Clarke: How long has this contract to run? Is it made annually ?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE It is made annually at the close of the winter navigation. I think it runs until April, 1904.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the right hon. gentleman (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) anything in his mind's eye with respect to securing faster vessels for this service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, we have ; but I am afraid that, owing to various circumstances, we cannot very profitably enter upon a discussion of the fast service if that is what my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) refers to. We received, as he is aware, a couple of tenders -but neither satisfactory to us-for a service of twenty-one knots and of sixteen knots. But they may serve-they are serving -as a basis of negotiotion in some quarters.
I have some expectation that we will be able to come to term's. But the demands of steamship owners and our ideas were rather far apart.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Are negotiations going on now with any company 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, with two or three.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In the hope of securing a fast service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: To ascertain if we can obtain one on reasonable terms.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I thought the matter was practically dropped as there was nothing in the estimates

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE No, it is not dropped. We have a statutory vote, as the hon. gentleman knows.	.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But there was a great divergence of opinion among the ministers themselves as to the utility of the service. That is the reason I asked if the right hon. gentleman has anything in view.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There are negotiations going on, but they are not in such shape that I can communicate anything.


Edward Frederick Clarke: So, we shall have to be content in the meantime with the fourteen and twelve-knot service.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, that is the best we can have-for six months.


Mr. KEMP.: I understand that the larger portion of our mail to and from Great Britain goes and comes via New York. Is there any expense to this government for that service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The steamship company receives,

I believe, a proportionate sum from us and a proportionate sum from the British government, according to the amount of mail matter they carry. Of course, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kemp) is aware that there is a vessel out of New York nearly every day, so, of necessity, the greater portion of our mail goes that way. We could not possibly confine the mail to a weekly service.


Albert Edward Kemp: Then, the larger portion goes by New York ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Decidedly the larger portion.


Albert Edward Kemp: And I understand the government pay these vessels no subsidy.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No regular subsidy, but the post office has to pay them a certain sum. I rather think it is paid through the British government. The New York steamers do not carry the mails for nothing, but they do not charge a heavy rate.


Albert Edward Kemp: Where do we find the figures showing these payments ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The payments are made by the post office. It is entirely outside of my department.


Albert Edward Kemp: It is not a very large sum ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I believe not. Of course, the Postmaster General can give my hon. friend full information as to the amount paid.


Albert Edward Kemp: We seem to.be paying a very large sum for carrying the Canadian mails to Great Britain and bringing mails from Great Britain toy these twelve and fourteen-knot vessels, while, as a matter of fact, for very little expense the greater portion of our mails is carried by way of New York. What is the object, in view of the fact that we get so much quicker service by New York, of paying these large sums to old-fashioned and out-of-date vessels ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: As a matter of course, the hon. gentleman knows that faster vessels will be very much more expensive. We could have the faster vessels if we paid for them, but, up to the present time the sums demanded. as I have stated, have been very heavy, perhaps more than the House would Care to pay. With respect to the use of this service. I may point out that the utility to Canada is very considerable in the winter season. These vessels go from St. John and from Halifax, and if the subsidy was discontinued there would be no service from Halifax to England. That service has been going on for a good many years, and I think the House would toe loath to deprive the maritime provinces of the service of these vessels. This is an old service which, as the hon. gentleman knows, was established before confederation. In those days Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.
it went from Portland and from Montreal ; now it goes from Montreal and Quebec, and from St. John and Halifax. Without this, we could hardly maintain a service from the maritime province ports.


Albert Edward Kemp: I understand that this service is maintained chiefly for the maritime provinces. This service may have been going on since confederation, but I quite recognize that we have not kept it up to date, and it is a question whether the service is worth that much now. These vessels have fallen so far behind that they are slow as compared with the regular mail vessels that ply between this continent and Europe. In view of that fact it seems to me, unless these 'people can give a quicker ami better service, the existing contract should be reconsidered.
Mr. SMlrH (Wentworth). A copy was brought down last session of the agreement with the Donaldson firm, by which they carry the mail for $750, the round trip between St. John and Glasgow. I was wondering whether the thousand pounds that is paid here is not partly a subsidy to these vessels in order to secure their running.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: 
Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It is paid for each trip, though.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-MEDOE. It is paid for each round trip. But these vessels are very much smaller than the Allan steamships.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Still, I presume they carry all the mail that is offered. I would like to ask if, in this contract where a subsidy is given, it is stipulated that the vessels should be ventilated ? These vessels all carry perishable cargoes, and it is necessary for the safety of the cargoes that the compartments in which they are carried should be ventilated.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: In a good many of them that is done. I think there are some thirty or forty steamers now sailing which do that, but they do that mostly under agreement with the Department of Agriculture, and not under the contracts they have with this department. There is one exception, the Furness Line, in which that stipulation is enforced ; but with the majority of them it is done through the Department of Agriculture.


Hon. Mr. TARTE.: May I ask the hon.
the Minister of Trade and Commerce what
is the average duration of the trips made

by the steamers which are carrying the mail between Quebec and Liverpool ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I can speak better as to the trip between Moville and Rimouski. I jjresent-ed this to the House the other day. The average duration is a little over seven and a half days in summer, and a trifle over eight days in winter, from Moville to Rimouski, and from Rimouski to Moville in the summer season, and from Halifax to Moville and Moville to Halifax during the winter.


Joseph Israël Tarte: What was the duration of the fastest trips that have been made during this season ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The fastest trip that was made. I think, was six days and sixteen hours, I think about ten hours less than seven days, from Moville to Rimouski.


Joseph Israël Tarte: How many fast trips, if I may call them so, have been made under seven days ?[DOT]


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Answering my hon. friend from recollection, I think there were eight under seven days. But I may observe that the contract calls for an average. If they make a little better trip one time, that can count against the longer duration another time. The sei'vice latterly has been considerably better than it was a couple of years ago, that much I can say. I think there has beep an imjirovement on the average of about twenty to twenty-four hours as compared with a year or two ago.


Joseph Israël Tarte: If I remember right, the mail service is being entrusted to-day to several companies.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have tried several.


Joseph Israël Tarte: May I ask if my hon. friend has the names of the boats under his hand ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The ' Pretorian,' the ' Bavarian,' the * Tunisian.' I think are the boats stipulated in the first instance. In the event of a disaster occurring to these they are allowed to substitute the ' Numidian,' the 'Corinthian ' and the ' Sicilian ' and ' Ionian,' of course, under consent.


Joseph Israël Tarte: May I ask whether steamers of some other lines have also been employed during this season ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Not during this season. Replying to another question of the hon. gentleman. I can give him the average time. From Moville to Halifax, it is seven days and twenty hours ; from Halifax to Moville, six days and twenty hours.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the distance between those points ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: From Moville to Halifax it is between 2,300 and 2,400 knots : between .Moville and Rimouski it is perhaps 2,500. It depends upon whether they take the south route or go via Belle Isle. But I think the shortest distance would be about 2,500 miles.


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not see the advantage of paying subsidies for carrying our mails from Rimouski to Moville. Letters from tlie district of Montreal and from the west will go to Newr York just as quick as they go to Rimouski ; and they would go from the maritime provinces to some ports in the United States as quick as they would go to Rimouski. As long as these slow vessels are on, what is the use of paying subsidies ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: Is that the fact ? Let us take things as they are. When the hon. gentleman speaks of slow boats, perhaps he will remember that the steamers which are being used now are a great deal better than those used in the past. The ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian ' rank among the best steamers on the Atlantic ocean.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That is as far as seaworthiness is concerned.


Joseph Israël Tarte: I quite grant that they are not as speedy as a great many of the steamers that are plying between the old country and American ports, but let us not forget that the St. Lawrence route is the shortest route between the east and the west by nearly 500 miles. Even if we have not steamers just as speedy as the fast liners that our American friends and the German empire possess we are still able to compete with them. . I would like very much to have faster steamers, but I cannot forget that the St. Lawrence is navigated to-day by improved steamers.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the St. Lawrence route is the shortest route, as it is. why do you not put fast steamers on that route to accelerate the carriage of mails and passengers ? The great bulk of the people who go to England, as the hon. gentleman knows, go by way of New York, for the reason that they have better steamers there.


Joseph Israël Tarte: I quite grant that during the winter months especially our Canadian route is not very much used, but if my hon. friend will look at the passenger lists of the steamers leaving the port of Montreal during the summer months be will find that there is not one available berth, not because our steamers are the fastest, but because our route has such magnificent scenery, which is a feature of the journey. I quite appreciate the efforts made by members of parliament who have given some attention to this question in

trying to get tlie lion, gentlemen on the Treasury benches to give us faster steamers, and I deprecate the Idea of suppressing the very small amount that is now in the estimates to encourage our navigation companies in their work. They have an uphill work for the reason that the insurance rates have been higher on the St. Lawrence than on the American route. Let us recognize frankly that we have not done for our waterways what we should have done. We have not improved, especially our great St. Lawrence route as we should have improved it. We have not lighted or deepened it as we should have done, and let us not commit the mistake of discouraging our navigation companies. When I was a minister I remember very well that some of the navigation companies would decline to put their best boats on the St. Lawrence route. It was our fault. I do not speak in a party spirit. We had not provided in past years the necessary accommodation for trade and navigation. The St. Lawrence was not as safe as it should have been made. The amount in the estimates is a moderate one. I am sure that the great majority of hon. members will be ready to vote a larger sum fos faster steamers. But, we have a fine service this year. The ' Tunisian,' the ' Bavarian,' the ' Canada ' of the Dominion line, and the ' Ionian ' are very fine liners indeed. They are not as fast as I would like them to be, but in the meantime I hope that instead of discouraging


Edward Frederick Clarke: We are not discouraging this service.


Joseph Israël Tarte: I just speak my own mind and I do not make allusion to anybody-instead of contemplating the removal from the estimates of the very moderate sum of money that is there now we should try to get more money and a better service.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Would the right hon. minister tell us the average weight of the mail matter that is sent by these steamers ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Well, that is very considerable. Of course, the great bulk of newspapers, and mall matter of that description go by way of the Canadian route, while the letters are sent by way of New York.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Could the right hon. gentleman tell us the weight of the letters or of the mail matter generally ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am afraid I could not do that very well. I will try and get the information if the hon. gentleman desires it.
M.r CLARKE. There must be some information in the department as to the weight of this mail matter ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That particular information is in the Post Office Department rather than in the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Joseph Israël Tarte: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: The right hon. minister is asking a vote for this service and I think it is not unreasonable for us to ask that we should have this information. It must be available.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have no doubt I could obtain from the Post Office Department a statement of the average weight.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If we had a statement showing the average weight of the mails carried on each of these trips, the average weight of mail matter sent by way of the Canadian route and by way of the New York route, we would be able to decide as to the appreciation which the Canadian people have of their own route.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I could give in a general way information as to the proportion. I am quite sure that at least six-sevenths of the letters that go from Canada go by way of New York. Most of the mercantile correspondence westward of Montreal goes by way of New York. The mail matter from the maritime provinces goes chiefly from Halifax to St. John, but the great weight of the mails, that is to say, the newspapers, &c., .goes by way of our vessels. Very little of that goes by way of New York.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the right hon. gentleman any figures under his hand or in his department showing the weight of this mail matter ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have never looked upon it as a matter of so much per pound. I have no doubt as a matter of freight, if that is wbat the hon. gentleman wants to get at, that the price paid for the transmission of the number of tons of freight we send would be a very large one. But, that is not the reason for which this subsidy was originally given or has been continued. It was for the purpose of encouraging navigation from Canadian ports, and I may remind the hon. gentleman-perhaps he is not aware-that originally the subsidy given to the Allan Line was at least three times as great as it is at present. I think the subsidy, when it was first started, and that was from old Canada alone, was $408,000 a year. It was afterwards reduced to $200,000 and then it has been subsequently reduced to what it is now-between $150,000 and $170,000. The real fact of the matter is that this subsidy is given substantially for the pnr-pose of maintaining inter-communication. We could easily send our mails during the summer season from Montreal and Quebec, but in order to maintain communication from the Canadian winter ports, to which both sides of the House have attached a great deal of importance, we are obliged to subsidize vessels going from St. John and Halifax very heavily, or we would have no line from these points in any degree equal

to what we now have. One hon. gentleman has asked what is the average speed maintained by the steamers. The average speed of the ' Tunisian ' was 13 7-10 knots, the 'Parisian'1 13 3-10 knots , the 'Bavarian' 13 3-10 knots and the 'Ionian' 13-6 knots. I think the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) asked me a question in regard to the distances. The distance between Moville and Rimouski, via Cape Race, is 2,455 miles, and between Moville and Halifax, via Cape Race, 2,254 miles. My hon. friend beside me (Hon. Mr. Tarte) was inquiring how many of these trips had been made in less than seven days. There were eight trips made under seven days. The majority of them were above seven.


Joseph Israël Tarte: We have fast steam-iers leaving almost daily from New York and other American ports, and for a good many years to come we will be obliged to use the American route on that account, but all the same it is most desirable that we should build up our Canadian route as fast as we can.


Mr. COCHRANE.: No one is disputing that fact.


Joseph Israël Tarte: I know, but there may be some hon. gentlemen who are not as kindly disposed towards the St. Lawrence route as I am.


Mr. MACLEAN.: I believe that the line of the fast service between America and Europe is from a Canadian port to a British port, and that if we had the 'courage to establish a fast passenger express across the Atlantic we would get all the American traffic to come our way, and instead of paying tribute to them, the American people would be paying tribute to us. But it wants a government of courage' who will settle the matter at once and for all. It may be a comparatively large expenditure at the outset, but it can be financed, and it will go a long way towards elevating Canada in the eyes of Europe. I have given some attention to the matter, and the idea now is that an express boat on the Atlantic is not a great big boat of 10,000 tons, but probably one of 5,000 tons, constructed for the express purpose of making the trip in the shortest possible time. We have the most contiguous ports to Britain, and we should make some effort to establish this fast service. We have been at it for years and years, and we are further away from it now than ever before. Probably the port of Sydney would be the nearest port, or there may be a port in Newfoundland from which the Atlantic could be crossed in two days by these new turbine steamers. The question must be taken up by the government in a courageous way if we are to have this fast express service. I believe the government should try to solve the question at the earliest possible moment on some such line as I have suggested.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The weight despatched by the Allan Line steamers from the 1st of April, 1902, to 1st of March, 1903, was : letters, and post cards, 7,330 pounds ; other matter, 60,795 pounds ; in all, 68,089 pounds. I have made inquiry at the post office with reference to the weight coming the other way, and I have been informed that it is not customary to weigh mails exchanged between countries of the postal union, except when it becomes necessary to obtain the weights for statistical purposes. No record has been kept of the weight of mails despatched to Canada from the United Kingdom, and unless the British office has done so for its own information it cannot be obtained.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does that mean that the total mail matter carried for 12 months from Canada to Great Britain would be only 34 tons ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Thirty-five tons, to be correct.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Probably there would be half that much coming this yay.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Very likely.


Edward Frederick Clarke: And we are paying $150,000 a year for that privilege ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes. If the House likes to abolish the service, of course, it is in its power to do so, but that wornd probably be very inconvenient for our friends in the maritime provinces.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We nave no desire to inconvenience our friends in the maritime provinces, but we are most anxious that this service shall be improved and accelerated.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Well, it is a question of cost.


Edward Frederick Clarke: By the way, there was a very elegant model of a bottle-necked steamer out in the lobby for some years ; what has become of it ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think it was returned to Mr. Petersen along with his deposit.


Edward Frederick Clarke: And the interest.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Did you test the ballbearing apparatus on it before you returned it ?


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: I desire to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he has given any consideration to the question of freight rates on commodities between Canadian centres and British centres. The American government furnishes the rate of all classes of commodities over all lines to and

from the great American centres, and between American ports and European ports, and I am satisfied that if these were furnished to the people for Canada they wou'.d find a very great discrimination against Canada in the matter of long haul through-traffic rates, as compared with the rat's in the United States. We in Canada have taxed ourselves liberally and cheerfully to build railroads from which our municipalities derive very little taxation, and I think it -quite unfair that the rates from American points to the old laud should be much less than the rates from Canadian points to imperial centres over those same Canadian roads. That handicaps our farmers, and I would like to ask the minister if he purposes giving the question consideration.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. member has referred to me


Samuel Hughes: I meant the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I may say that on a former occasion this question was brought to my attention and I have discussed it a little with the officers of my department, and I hope to obtain certain statistics in regard to it, but it will take some time to get that information.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have paid a good deal of attention to it and I may observe to my hon. friend (Mr. Hughes) that as a rule the steamship companies complain that the service during the winter is utterly unprofitable, so unprofitable that if they did not make a little money during the summer, they would be compelled to abandon it. Of -course, statements of that kind may be taken cum grano ; but, there is no doubt that during the winter season, very little money has been made on the service from Halifax and St. John, and that it is substantially true that what they carry they -carry at a loss. The House will of coarse recognize that, from the geographical configuration of our country, the railroad haul to American ports is very considerably shorter than the railroad haul to points on our Atlantic coast; and the old rule that ocean navigation is very much cheaper than railroad hauling prevails. Moreover, as my hon. friend very well knows, the American routes leading into New York have very great advantages, not merely in the equipment, which is a matter of expenditure, but in the grades. You -can have grain carried at an extremely low rate from Buffalo to New York, because there are no grades of any magnitude to surmount. Under these circumstances, I do not know that w-e can hope to compete, with the superior advantages they possess, unless we subsidize.


Samuel Hughes: What I want is to get the facts, and then I am satisfied that public attention will be drawn to the very points the Minister of Trade and Commerce Mr. -HUGHES (Victoria).
and the Minister of Agriculture have brought forward, that it is a -question of hauling, and that if we had our railroads constructed with very low grades, they would be in a better position to compete.
An hou. MEMBER. And fitted with ballbearings.


Samuel Hughes: Yes, and fitted with ball-bearing axles for freight cars. I am satisfied that is coming in the near future, and that the hauling capacity of locomotives will be doubled, or increased at least 50 per cent when the cars are equipped with the modern system of ball or roller bearings. I know that our rates are higher than the American rates ; but I want the facts to be brought out, and, having found out the reason, we will proceed to reduce our grades.


Mr. ROBINSON (West Elgin).: I think it is time that our railways and our steamships were so equipped that whenever Canadians wish to take a trip to Europe, they can find as good accommodation at Canadian ports as they can at American ports. I notice in reading the papers that whenever any of the members of our government, or any of our public -men go to Europe, they go by New York. They are generally interviewed there by newspaper men, -and they tell everything that has happened in Canada. I do not say that they have a private car to go to New lrork ; they surely would not charge the country with that ; but the Intercolonial is always at their disposal. During the summer they can sail from Montreal. Perhaps the river is not properly equipped, and they might be in -danger in going -down the river. If it is not, the Minister of Public Works or the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should have their attention called to the matter, so that our ministers' lives will not be jeopardized. Then, they can -sail from Halifax, which is one of the best ports in America. Why do the ministers not set the example and sail from our own ports ? It is time that their attention was called to this matter.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If the hon. gentleman looks at the records, he will find that the Prime Minister set a good example, for be both went and
came by the Canadian route.


Joseph Israël Tarte: I wish to take issue, with th-e statement just -ma-de by my hon. frien-d the hon. Minister of Trade -and Commerce. He has stated that we cannot, in his opinion, compete with the American railways running between Buffalo and New York. My hon. friend is mistaken, and the facts are there to prove that he is mistaken. The distance between Buffalo and New York by rail is 445 miles, not one more, not one less. The -distance between Depot Harbour and the port of Montreal is, in round numbers, 370 miles ; 'the distance between Midland and Montreal is 365 miles. Now, the

rates from Dulutli, Chicago, Milwaukee, Buffalo and Fort William, Port Arthur and Parry Sound, are the same. They were very low last year ; at one time they went as low as one cent a bushel for wheat-not for a very long time ; but for two or three weeks the rates between these points and the Atlantic ports wras one cent a bushel. The average rate during the whole season was one and a half cents, the rate being the same by the Canadian route and by the American route. What was the railway rate between Buffalo and New York ? It was on an average three and a quarter cents, or, let us say, three and a half cents. The rate was not higher on our Canadian routes. Mr. Booth, of the Canada Atlantic Railway, and the Grand Trunk Railway, carried grain for three cents a bushel. There is no reason why we cannot compete even as we are located to-day with the American railroads. The reason why we have not been more successful in the past is not that the rates have been higher on the lakes from the grain distributing centres, but that the rates on the St. Lawrence route from Montreal to the English market have been higher ; and why has it been so ? Because as I have said repeatedly, and as I cannot say too often or too earnestly, we have not Improved our St. Lawrence waterway as we should have done. Wc have not been quick enough in that respect. Fortunately things have been 'improving every day, and I have no hesitation in saying that the St. Lawrence to-day, between Quebec and Montreal is in good shape. During the last three or four years it has been widened, dredged, better lighted, and made a safe route. The St. Lawrence between Quebec and Montreal will, within a year or a year and a half, or two years at the outside, have a uniform depth of thirty feet at low water, that is to say, from the loth of September to the close of navigation, and at other times from thirty-three to thirty-five feet of water ; and it will have a Width of four hundred and fifty feet in the straight parts and six hundred or seven hundred feet at the curves.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Will the same pilotage system continue in the future ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: I quite grant that our pilotage system has been bad in the past. It is improving, however. I wish it were improved more quickly. I wish the Department of Marine and Fisheries, as I have frequently suggested, would take charge of the pilotage ; the country would then become responsible. However, that is a matter of detail. Let us go on with the improvement and equipment of the St. Lawrence. Let us do it now. I fully agree with my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, of whose wide experience we are always glad to avail ourselves, that our waterways are the only practicable and feasible means of competition with our American neighbours.
23S -


Mr. SPROULE.: Can the hon. gentleman give us the freight rates from Montreal to Liverpool ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: I have not got them under my hand. For the last year or two there has not been as much difference between them and the rates from American ports as during the past. In the past there has been a difference of at least 50 per cent, and at times more ; but all that is simply a question of detail.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is there any reduction in the insurance rate ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: The Canadian Pacific Railway have arranged with Lloyds for a much lower rate. I think that the Allan Line also insure at lower rates. When the insurance companies have no longer the pretext that we have been neglectful, they will be obliged, to come down.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The experience of the insurance companies has not been a very happy one.


Joseph Israël Tarte: Navigation companies have met with accidents in the Lower St. Lawrence as in other parts of the world, and the insurance companies have been very zealous in charging against the St. Lawrence route wrecks that have taken place even elsewhere. However, let us equip that St. Lawrence route as fast as money and energy can do it. It is easy to have first class lighthouses and fog signals. Money and energy can secure all that. During the last year or two the Department of Marine and Fisheries has moved ahead pretty fast. There is now no danger between Quebec and Montreal of a complete wreck, even if a steamer should meet with an accident. As the St. Lawrence is becoming lighted up more and more between Quebec and Montreal, in a year or two that part of our navigation will be perfectly safe. I came up the river a few nights ago in very dark weather, and I found the system of lighthouses between Sorel and Montreal so perfect that the biggest ship can navigate at night without any fear at all. The St. Lawrence is lighted up just as Sparks street is ; and if we go on in improving our Canadian waterways, we can secure the trade.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Are not the freight rates across the Atlantic from a Canadian port more expensive than from an American port ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: Why should they be ? They have been in the past, but why should they be in the future ? From New York to Liverpool the distance is 3,000, and from Montreal to Liverpool it is 2,600. If we make our system safe, why should the rates be higher ?


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Is it not a fact that to-day the freight rates are higher from Halifax and St. John, or even Quebec, than i from an American port ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: I am talking especially from the standpoint of tlie port of Montreal. Tlie rates are about the same from the port of Quebec. At times they are a little higher, for the excellent reason that the port of Quebec has not been able to supply the same kind of freight that Montreal does, but as a rule the rates are the same. As -regards Halifax and St. John, I cannot say, but I believe that I am right in stating that the Canadian Pacific Railway, now that it has acquired a fleet of its own, will be able ' to make through rates just as cheap as any American company. If we stand by our Canadian route, we will accomplish our object. The nations of the world, which have become great, were not discouraged at the first attempts. I have been l'eading lately a good deal of the history of the German empire, which to-day is second as a maritime power. How was that accomplished ? Because it has not been afraid to spend money on its own waterways and in subsidizing its own navigation companies. Its trade now covers the world. There is no reason why, when we certainly have the choicest route, we would not be able to make it the best. Let us not forget that the St. Lawrence l-oute, for perishable products, such as butter and cheese, is far superior to the American routes, as it is cooler and freshei-. If the hon. Minister of Agriculture will allow me to make a suggestion, I would suggest to him that his officers, who have given a great deal of attention to the agricultural ti'ade, could do more in Montreal. On the wharfs themselves there should be refrigerators to receive the butter and cheese from the cars. We know very well that to carry butter and cheese only a half a mile under a hot sun will damage these products very much. Therefore, I believe that it would be of the greatest advantage to the country to have on the wharfs at Montreal and elsewhere the accommodations which are found in all equipped ports of the world. It always surprises me to hear some of our friends complaining that we are spending money on our harbours. Why, we have scarcely begun to spend money. What is it to spend five or ten millions on a great national harbour, when other nations are spending thirty millions, fifty millions-any amount that may be necessary to make their harbours commodious, speedy and capable of handling goods to advantage ? I apologize to the committee for having spoken so long.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: In answer to the hon. member who asked the question, I may say that the cuiTent rate from our ports to Liverpool is 5ic. per 100 pounds on wheat and other kinds of grain.


Joseph Israël Tarte: That is during this season ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: At present. That is probably


Matthew Henry Cochrane: the lowest rate ever attained, and I am advised that it compares favourably with the rate by New York.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Has the right hon. gentleman the freight rate from Chicago and other points on cheese and butter ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I cannot give the rate on cheese and butter. It varies a good deal. From such a point as Midland to Liverpool, the rate is 12^c. That would give 5ic. to the steamship and 7jc. to the railway.


Albert Edward Kemp: I would not take second place to my hon. friend from Montreal, St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte), in my enthusiasm about the St. Lawrence route. I did not design to bring about the discussion that has arisen as to the St. Lawrence route as a route for freight traffic: I spoke of the carriage of mails and the subsidy we are giving for the carrying of mails. I agree with a great deal of what has been said by my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tarte), and I should say further that this year, up to the present time, more freight has gone by the St. Lawrenee route than in any other similar period in the past. This of itself must prove that the freight rates by that route must be favourable, at least so far as grain is concerned. As to butter and cheese, that is another question. The St. Lawrence route is the popular route for dairy products. Our Canadian shippers do not avail themselves of the facilities by American ports for these products. One reason is that ours is cooler and the facilities are better. As to the insurance rates, it is to be borne in miixd that when the Canadian Pacific Railway bought out the Elder-Demp-ster Company, the insurance rates on the vessels bought were reduced. That will afford us some encouragement on this subject. We have a right to regard the St. Lawrence route more hopefully than at any time in the past. I believe that tlie grain of this great northern part of the continent will go by this route in increasing propoi'tions year by year. What I wished to draw attention to is this: The Minister of Trade and Commerce has told us that the quantity of mail that went by the Canadian steamers, for which we pay 8150,000, was 68,000 poiuids, or about 35 tons.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That is one way only.


Albert Edward Kemp: Would there be as much coming this way?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: * Not quite.


Albert Edward Kemp: 
Edward Frederick Clarke: That 35 tons includes packages.


Albert Edward Kemp: 
Jabel Robinson: What the hon. member for Montreal, St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte), says may be quite right. But he was for a number of years Minister of Public Works, and I think he had an excellent opportunity to improve the St. Lawrence river so that large boats could go up and down it without danger. Before the hon. gentleman became Minister of Public Works I went down the river twice and returned twice. It was safe enough for me; and I think if it is good enough for me, it is good enough for the hon. member for St. Mary's or any member of this government. We are all anxious to see the port of Montreal well equipped and made a free port if possible. But we want to see the people of Montreal take an interest in their own port. I had the pleasure of visiting Montreal a few weeks ago, and that was not my first visit. I lived there over forty-three years ago. And in my recent visit I found Montreal, with the' exception of the harbour, very little improved so far as cleanliness is concerned. The farmers of Ontario will hesitate very much before they ship butter and cheese and other goods that will spoil through tainting by way of Montreal. If there were any members representing the city present I would try to lecture them on this point. There is plenty of water in the St. Lawrence river 23S4
to keep the city clean, and if the people there expect the farmers of Ontario to ship their produce that way, they must keep their city clean. I will not say what further I saw in Montreal. But the next time I go, if it is not in better shape than it was two weeks ago last Saturday, I will tell you about it.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The Allan Line only.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Is it contracted with the Allan Line that the -vessels should be thoroughly ventilated ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian ' have refrigerators. I have explained that this subsidy is not primarily granted for mail services ; I have never contended, and I do not think any of my predecessors ever contended, that we were receiving good value in a mail point of view from this service. Practically speaking, we could get everything we wanted carried at very trifling cost during the summer season ; but you cannot maintain a service from the Atlantic ports in winter unless you subsidize it. That is the exact position.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman is mistaken in saying that we are paying the ' Tunisian ' and the ' Bavarian ' subsidies for cold storage. These two ships are not getting a subsidy at the present time for cold storage.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Have the government not paid anything for cold storage or for cool storage service on either of these vessels ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not [DOT] for cool storage, and I do not think for cold storage either.
Mr. SMITH (Wentworth.) Do the government not pay anything for cool storage on either of these vessels ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I would not say positively about cool storage, though I do not think either of these vessels are amongst those for which we are paying for cool storage. As to the cold storage, I am not positive.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: the Allen Line, and as we get nothing out of it in the way of a mail service, we should get something out of it in the way of a freight service. I have heard the Minister of Agriculture complain in this House that he or the members of his staff did not feel that they were in a position to compel these steamship companies to provide the proper ventilation necessary for carrying perishable products. But here is an opportunity to secure that when these contracts are made. When something is paid for which no other service is rendered, the least the minister can do is to provide in that contract that these vessels should have their compartments properly ventilated in which perishable products are carried. In one of the contracts that is provided, so there can he no excuse why it should not be called for in the other contracts.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The reproach made by the hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Robinson), to the city of Montreal, rankles in my bosom. I can say in the language of Shakespeare :
I am not prone to weeping as some folks commonly are, bu't I have that honourable grief lodged here which burns worse than tears drown. *
I do not think the hon. gentleman is justifiable in his aspersions upon the city of Montreal. Montreal is not such a dirty city as he would have us suppose. The houses are clean, the port is not in an unclean state, and I am sure the people are clean. I am quite sure that the agricultural products which come from the province ' of the hon. gentleman pass through less clean places than the city of Montreal. We have had a very unfortunate period in our municipal administration. We lost a great deal of money in a way in which the money should not have been lost. Some members of this House who know something of our municipal history, know that that state of affairs which has existed in the past has now come to an end. We have a better administration, an improved administration, and a large sum of money is going to be spent next year in keeping the streets clean ; that is the principal point. So the hon. gentleman need not discourage people from sending freight through that very important port. I would like to add this at the same time, since my hon. friend from Northumberland (Mr. Cochrane) has raised the question. It is very important, when we give such large subsidies to steamship companies, that we should know what is the rate of freight for agricultural products, and how that rate compares with the rates of American shippers. The Americans are great rivals in the carrying trade, and it would he a proper thing for this government to treat primarily with the steamship companies in order to secure from them such a rate of freight as would enable us to compete with the American lines. That would not he difficult, and I do not think it has been done, or attempted Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).
by this government. Competition is becoming very close, and it seems to me that such a step as a conference with regard to the rate of freight in order if possible to secure one that is fair and just, should be a necessary precedent to the granting of a subsidy. I would apply the same remark to the question of insurance. It is no use for us to improve the St. Lawrence, to spend millions of money upon that route, unless, by a conference with the underwriters on the other side of the Atlantic, we can secure from them more favourable terms of insurance, as we spend more money to make the navigation of the St. Lawrence safer. Now, these men reside at a distance. As the hon. member for St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte) said, they charge up all losses to the St. Lawrence route. It seems to me it would be a fit and proper thing for the members of this government who travel frequently to the other side of the Atlantic, to meet these men and to find out upon what conditions they will improve their insurance rate, provided we carry out the improvements which from time to time have been suggested, and which possibly these gentlemen might suggest. I am sure that if this government made such arrangements witli these underwriters, who to a large extent, naturally, ignore the improvements we are carrying out on the St. Lawrence route, we would before long have a diminution of these insurance rates. The rates upon freight, which most largely concerns the public, are far more than the rates upon the steamships themselves. These rates have not, so far as I am informed, been diminished, in spite of all the money we have spent upon this route. They remain stationary, and will remain stationary, until we bring these people on the other side to understand that every million of money that we spend upon that route tends to diminish the danger and protect the underwriters. Some years ago, I believe, it was contemplated to organize a marine insurance company upon this side of the Atlantic. I believe that would be a proper thing to do, and this government should assist such a company if it was formed. There is no doubt that if we created on this side of the Atlantic a company of underwriters amongst ourselves, who would he able to follow much more closely than European underwriters the improvements we are making in the St. Lawrence, a very salutary rivalry will he created between those who do an insurance 'business, to the advantage of our Canadian shippers.


Albert Edward Kemp: May I ask the Minister of Customs what he did last summer, during his long stay in London, with regard to interviewing the underwriters to see if it is possible to get better rates from them on the steamers which sail on the St. Lawrence route ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: Personally I did not have any such interview.

I think the Postmaster General could give information on that point.


Albert Edward Kemp: Did he have interviews with the underwriters on that subject ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: I think the hou. Postmaster General had.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have had many interviews with the underwriters, and the ease is no doubt one that deserves all the attention the House can give to it because the rate of insurance is one of the great obstacles in the way of making the best use of the St. Lawrence route. They presented a statement to the effect that the number of disasters that had occurred in the St. Lawrence was so numerous that for several ye*n-s their accounts showed a loss and not a gain. Of course, this was their statement, and I give it for what it was worth.


Joseph Israël Tarte: Of course, if my right lion, friend remembers the fact, these underwriters-


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They charged us with a wreck that occurred on the Scotch coast in one case.


Joseph Israël Tarte: And they took the last ten or twelve years without taking into account the improvements made within the last live years. I remember very well discussing it with them and showing them they were wrong, because they were simply charging against us all the accidents that had happened in the past. The St. Lawrence has been jmproved very much within the last four or five years, it is improving year after year and day after day. There is no ground for the extra charges that the Lloyds are exacting from us-and I cannot see for the life of me why they are allowed to do so. Of course, they are a very powerful company and I apprehend that our American friends, being a little bigger than we are, may have more influence with them in London than we have ourselves. But when we have done our duty, when we are on the right side, when all our improvements are completed, if they do not do the right thing-I mav not have much to say in public affairs then, but I hope I would not hesitate to take the most energetic measures to see what we could do here to improve the conditions in regard to insurance.


Mr. WRIGHT.: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if it has not been reported to the House already that there was a reduction made in the rate on the Canadian Pacific Railway line of steamers ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: Yes.


Aaron Abel Wright: Then, the good work has commenced.


Joseph Israël Tarte: Yes, because we have ourselves done the good work of improvement. Things are not going badly, but it seems to me they should go better. I take every opportunity to impress upon the House the necessity of not delaying any longer the improvement of our waterways. It is obvious that they are the best means of trade that we have at our disposal. If that is so let us not lose time.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What has been the experience this season so far on the St. Lawrence route ? How many marine casualties have taken place ?


Joseph Israël Tarte: There have been scarcely any accidents between Quebec and Montreal.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am speaking of the river generally, not of that particular part of the river.	-	-


Hon.   S@: There have not been any accidents of any magnitude. Lately there has been the loss of the ' Monterey' of the Canadian Pacific Railway Line and it was off the island of St. Pierre Miquelon, not in our territory at all.


Mr. BICKERDIKE.: In answer to the hon. gentleman - for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) in regard to the insurance rates, I would say that I do not think the underwriters are charging at all an exorbitant rate from this country. You can get your cheese insured at 20 cents per- $100 all the way from Toronto to the interior of England with ten days on the wharf at either end. Surely that is not an exorbitant rate. The rates have gone down during the last two years 50 per cent, and this reduction is largely due to the improvements made in the St. Lawrence route. In regard to the establishment of a company on this side, I may say that there are two. or three companies which have exclusively Canadian shareholders. We have the Royal Marine Insurance Company, recently established at Montreal, the British American and the Western nearly all with 'exclusively Canadian shareholders. To-day the rates are down to twenty cents per $100 for the best steamers, such as those of the Allan Line, including ten days on the wharf on each [DOT]side. Will any hon. member of this House undertake to say that that is the reason why the business is not going by way of the St. Lawrence route ? The Canadian Pacific Railway got a reduction of 25 per cent in the spring of 1903. Last season we had seven or eight wrecks in the St. Lawrence or in the gulf. The government instituted very searching inquiries as to the causes and in every case the accident was due to no want of improvement in the St. Lawrence route but to the inefficiency of the officers.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Of what officers ?


Robert Bickerdike: In some cases of the captain, in some cases of the mate, and in other cases of the pilot, but I do not think there is a single case where the cause has

been brought home to any defect in the St. Lawrence channel. These facts have been brought home to the Department of Marine and Fisheries by Commander Spain who has had charge of several investigations and by Commander Salmon who also inquired into some of the cases and in every instance they brought home the fact that the accident was not due to any defect in the channel, but was due to inefficiency on the part of the officers.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: How do the rates of our own underwriters compare with the rates charged by Lloyds ? I suppose we have Canadian underwriters who take risks on the St. Lawrence route. Are they practically the same ?


Robert Bickerdike: They are practically the same.


Joseph Israël Tarte: How do these rates compare with the American rates ?


Robert Bickerdike: The American rates are about 20 per cent less than ours.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That is what I was referring to. My hon. friend (Mr. Bickerdike) is at the head of an insurance company himself, and my experience of insurers is that they have always found the rate of insurance extremely 'moderate and reasonable, while the larger class of the insured have always found these rates very exorbitant and high.
I will not discuss the question of rates because I am not familiar enough with the question of insurance to do so, but the point is that our rates are very much higher than the American rates. That is the question which I want to bring to the notice of the committee.


Robert Bickerdike: It must naturally always be so because there are several hundred miles of river forming a part of our route which is always more dangerous.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I thought the hon. gentleman said there was no trouble in the river at all, but that these accidents were due to the carelessness of the officials.


Robert Bickerdike: Exactly.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That is the question and without suggesting for a moment the creation of a commission which is rather h la mode for this government, it seems to me that if we had a man specially qualified for the purpose of acting for the government, taking up that question and representing to the insurance companies the value of the improvements we are making to the St. Lawrence route every year, steps would probably be taken before long to bring the insurance rates down to such a figure as would enable us to contest successfully with American ships.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.).: The subject under discussion has extended over a very wide range. In the first place, I hope there is no hon. member on either side of this Mr. BICKERDIKE.
House who would discountenance the $150,000 vote, because by the grant alone can we ensure communication. If we depend upon trade vessels they can come and go just as they please to suit their own convenience. The hon. member for Montreal, St. Mary's, (Hon. Mr. Tarte), to use his own expression is always fresh when speaking about the St. Lawrence route and the improvement at the port of Montreal. The port of Montreal has an advantage this year because of the abolition of the canal tolls, and that has increased its trade. I hope that later on not only Montreal, but other ports in this Dominion will become free ports, and that I believe will result in a large volume of trade coming to them. The question of the cleanliness of the streets of the city of Montreal is somewhat outside of this discussion and I shall not refer to it. There is one thing we must not forget, and that is that the port of Halifax is 250 miles nearer Great Britain than any other port in the Dominion.


Albert Edward Kemp: What about Sydney ?
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) Yes, but you cannot use Sydney all the year round.
I am a Sydney man because I was born on the Island of Cape Breton and everything connected with that island is dear to my heart. I would hold up both hands for Sydney if you could use it all the year round. The port of Halifax does not require to be deepened. It has every facility at the present time except that perhaps you would want more docks for steamship accommodation. The merchants of Halifax are sometimes sneered at because it is said they are not up to the times, but the fact is that there are seven or eight wharfs in Halifax to which the largest steamers can come and these wharfs were built by the merchants of Halifax with their own money and without any outside assistance. I was pleased to find that one gentleman from Ontario takes an interest in the port of Halifax. I wish to say a word in favour of the views of the hon. member for East York (Mr. Maclean). As every one knows I am an old man, but perhaps I am a little in advance of the government in my ideas as to what a fast line should be.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That's easy.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) If we have a fast line from Canada the passengers will go by that fast line when we can prove that we can shorten the ocean voyage two days to Great Britain as compared with New York. The United States is a large country and the passengers will Come to the place from which you can make the shortest ocean trip. If a gentleman with his family wants to go to Europe he wishes to avoid seasickness as much as possible, and he will go to the port from which the quickest ocean voyage is made. I am not disappointed that we have not a fast line just now for the reason that I am disap-



JTJLX 29, 1903 759S

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pointed at the rate of speed which the government have stipulated for this fast line.
Jabel Robinson: I may say that a lady who is anxious to get to Europe without seasickness should take the ship i at Montreal for the reason that she gets used to the swing of the boat before she gets : out to sea, and then she will not get seasick. Every Canadian who wishes to avoid seasickness should take the steamer at Montreal or Quebec and not go to Halifax.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) You cannot go to Montreal in the winter time.


Albert Edward Kemp: I wish to ask the hon. member for St. Lawrence (Mr. Bickerdike) if the hulls of British steamships are insured in Canadian companies ?


Robert Bickerdike: No. There are no Canadian insurance companies large enough to do that business. It is done entirely at Lloyds in England.


Albert Edward Kemp: That is what I thought, and of course the hull is usually worth more than the cargo. I wish to ask the Postmaster General what steps were taken when the members of the government visited London last summer in regard to the rate of insurance on British ships coming to the St. Lawrence ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I attended before a committee of Lloyds, and I stated that the opinion prevailed in Canada that Lloyds was discriminating unfairly against the St. Lawrence water route. These gentlemen pointed out some reasons that seemed to warrant their action, attributing liowev u; to the St. Lawrence route disasters that were not fairly attributable to it. In fact I think that they even attributed to the St. Lawrence route disasters to vessels sailing from a Canadian port though these disasters happen on the coast of England or Scotland. However, they stated that they were anxious to remove any discrimination, and on behalf of the government I invited them to send representatives to Canada to study our route and to point out what action on our part would remove these difficulties. I stated on behalf of the government that we would pay all the expenses of that examination in order that we may know definitely if possible what their objections were, so that we might take steps to remove these objections. They have promised to send a committee here, but I am not aware that they have done so yet.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was anything said at that conference about the fast Atlantic line ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That was not the subject we were discussing at Lloyds.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I thought it was anticipated that there would be a good deal of difficulty (in getting insurance far these ships.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That was not the subject of discussion.


Albert Edward Kemp: The Postmaster General can hold out no hope from any expression of opinion on the part of the underwriters that there will be a reduction in the insurance rates in the immediate future.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I would not be warranted in speaking for them. They expressed the utmost friendliness towards Canadian trade and a desire to be fair. They explained however that Lloyds, as we ail know, is not a corporation having a fixed rate of insurance, but that the rates are fixed by the opinion of the underwriters on each occasion. When a bottom is to be insured the broker goes to the room where the different underwriters have their desks and he presents a memorandum to the underwriters showing what amount of insurance is wanted on a certain ship, and he puts down the rate offered and all who are willing to underwrite at that rate do so. The broker, from the knowledge of the requirements of the individual underwriters, practically estimates what the rate will be and the figure is reached as the result of the prevailing opinion among the underwriters. The difficulty is of course to change the opinion of the underwriters. I found a very friendly feeling on the part of the committee towards Canada and a desire on their part to be satisfied that our route was not entitled to be black-listed as it has been. Perhaps some correspondence has taken place be-tweeen the Minister of Marine and Fisheries at the time (Horn Mr. Sutherland) and the underwriters. But the point I pressed upon them was, that they should themselves send representatives to learn for themselves that the reason for discrimination no longer existed or, if it did, then to have that reason made clear with a view to its removal.


Albert Edward Kemp: I would like now to inquire as to what the cost is of carrying the Canadian mails from here to New York, and transferring them across the Atlantic ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The rates are fixed by the International Postal Convention.- I cannot say from memory what they are.


Mr. KENDALL.: There is a phase of this question which I would like to accentuate. The insurance companies, I think, are not entirely to blame. The steamship companies are very largely to blame for many of the wrecks that occur. To show this, I may mention two incidents that came under my own observation. By accident I happened to be in the office of a large steamship company in London when I heard the captain of one of their vessels soundly censured by one of the directors for not having made better time-on two of his recent trips. The captain pleaded that he had to run through a fog, and that if he had run faster, he would have been in danger of running into

icebergs. I heard that director tell the captain that if he was not prepared to make better time, the directors would find a man who' would do so. On another occasion I sailed from Halifax to London. We had fog a large part of the way. I did not hear the conversation myself, but I learned in London that the captain of the steamship was told, as the other had been, that if he was not prepared to make good time, he would be dismissed. I returned on the same boat. When wre reached- the banksi it was at night and we were in a fog. The captain was asked to slow down. He promised to do so, but he continued to run the boat at the same rate as before. At six o'clock in tiie morning the fog arose, and we saw an iceberg close on our bows. I am not going to make this statement on my own authority, but on the authority of a sea captain who is very well known in the maritime provinces. Referring to the accidents that occurred in the St. Lawrence last season, this captain-who has had a large experience in the gulf, and lias never. I believe,, had an accident-said that neither of these accidents would have happened if the captains had not been too anxious to shorten the time between the points. He further said that no matter what appliances might be placed in the dangerous parts of the gulf, in the shape of lighthouses and fog-wliistles, unless the sea captains were ordered by the steamship owners not to hug the chief dangerous points too closely, no precautions we might take would prevent disasters in the gulf of the St. Lawrence.


Joseph Israël Tarte: All of us who have travelled by the American and Canadian routes in the fall season know very well that there is as much fog on the banks by the American route as there is by the Canadian route.' I have made several trips by both routes, and I can state that there is as much fog on the routes from Boston, New York and Philadelphia asi there is on the route from Quebec. So that the fog cannot be fairly given by Lloyds as a reason for the high insurance rates. I am very much afraid that the genuine reason for Lloyds action is the large volume of trade between the American ports and England ; they have too much influence for us. Now, we are passing through days of government ownership. Governments are becoming more and more inclined to assume heavy responsibilities. It seems to me that when the trade of the country and its good reputation are at stake, the government might take some little risk ; and if Lloyds, who have been invited by my hon. friend to come and see our improvements, and who have not responded to our invitation, and may not respond-if they do not come to terms, the government might to a certain extent become our own insurers. It is a feasible thing. Lloyds must understand that we are somewhat of a nation now. When we talk of fifty millions,' and one Mr. KENDALL.
hundred millions, we show that we have courage ;. and if my hon. friend and former colleague would speak loudly enough on that insurance question, it seems to me that Lloyds would come down. The St. Lawrence has been improved, and we are continuing to improve it every day ; and yet the more we improve it the less it seems Lloyds recognize the improvement. When the Canadian Pacific Railway Company became the owner of their line, the reason that was given, I think, for lowering the rates was that that company were sure to secure the services of the best officers. My hon. friend the member for St. Lawrence (Mr. Bickerdike) was right when he said that the accidents that were investigated last season were all found to be due either to incapacity or bad conduct on the part of the officers. I am very much afraid that some of the companies are trying to secure cheap men. You cannot have good men in these days of prosperity without paying for them.


Mr. BROCK.: I think the object we all have in view would be very much advanced if we were a little more moderate in our desires for ai fast service. The service which the government seem to have been striving for is a twenty-knot or twenty-two-knot service. I think we would be much more likely to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion of this matter if the government would be satisfied with an eighteen-knot service. This is a service which could.be rendered by a good many lines which would be shut out if we insisted on the faster rate. It is said that passengers will go a long distance by land in order to take) a short trip by ocean. That was the case many years ago when we had a poor class of vessels on the Atlantic. At the present time, with the comforts provided on first-class steamers, there is not such a desire to cross the Atlantic in a short time. And here the subject of insurance comes in. You can get one of our first-class steamers insured to-day from Liverpool to Montreal at a great deal lower rata than you can a steamer which is forced to cross the Atlantic at the rate of twenty-two knots an hour. When crossing from the other side, as soon ns we are at all near the banks of Newfoundland or the shores of Canada we run the risk, at certain seasons, of being detained by fog during two or three days. A twenty-two knot steamer cannot go faster through a fog than an eighteen-knot steamer, and it costs a great deal more to keep her going. The expense of running a twenty-two knot steamer per day is enormous compared to that of running a sixteen or eighteen knot vessel. I quite agree with the hon. member for St. Mary's division (Hon. Mr. Tarte) that in the attempt to run our steamers as cheaply as possible across the Atlantic, one of the means adopted is to get cheap men. To this no doubt is due some of the accidents. What should be rather aimed at is to get men who will bring our steamers safely across. The steamship

companies appear to value a man by the shortness of the time he takes to bring his vessel from port to port. This has a good deal to do with the losses that have occurred on approaching our shores and also in going up the St. Lawrence. But it seems to me we pay a very heavy price for the sake of saving an hour or two in speed. Having crossed the Atlantic some sixty or seventy times, I have a little of experience in the matter ; and I know that at present, when the passages are made so pleasant and comfortable, there is not the same desire as formerly on the part of the passengers to reach shore speedily. With all the comforts on board, electric lights in the cabins, exquisite music, luxurious drawing-rooms and smoking-rooms, first-class table, and everything as comfortable as possible, the pass

engers. as a rule, enjoy their trip too well to be in any great hurry to finish it. Some years ago, when we used to have to smoke alongside the smokestack on the hurricane deck and when our cabins were right over the screw, the case was different, and people were anxious to get across as speedily as possible. But to-day you cannot get people to risk crossing on a twenty-two knot steamer and pay the extra price, when they can cross on an eighteen knot steamer for several pounds less. I would urge on the government, in its negotiations for a fast Atlantic service, to keep safety in view rather than speed. The greater the safety the lower will be the insurance. If you insist on a twenty-two knot service, it will be impossible to get freight, because the rates will have to be so high to meet the extra insurance and expense of running these fast steamers. I do not believe that the country would care to pay a million dollars per year subsidy for a fast Atlantic service such as is talked about. Many of those who advocate such a service would be the very last to commit the country to the expenditure of a million dollars a year for it.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: In what particular does the contract with the Allans of this year differ from that of the 15th of March, 1901 ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It is the same contract.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I do not find in it any reference whatever to the ventilation of the steamers.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There is not.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I wish to draw attention to this very important matter. If the whole $150,000 a year were paid for that purpose alone, it would not be money thrown away by any means. We have had up to the last year or two our vessels carrying perishable articles to the old country in a very bad shape indeed. The loss has been millions annually on the various perishable products, especially apples. The lion. Minister of Agriculture has told us at times that he does, not find himself in a position to dictate to the vessel-owners or to go on board these vessels and see if the fans, which the government pay for, are being used. But when the government give a large subsidy it should put a condition in the contract that these vessels be ventilated. Some of them are ventilated at a trifling cost to the government or free of cost to the government ; but we cannot tell if the ventilation is proper unless an officer of the government has the right to go on board and make the tests in order to see whether the fans are being used or not. That cannot be done now unless by the courtesy of the steamer-owners, but it could be easily provided that we should have the right to do it.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The suggestion of the hon. gentleman is well worth considering, and I shall take a note of it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Brock), as our silence might be interpreted as an assent to his observations, I wish to say that I do not agree with him. We are living in a very fast age. As Fanny Fern says, we are all somewhat of the squirrel order, on the rush from morning to night. It is not the custom of travellers to-day to take very kindly to a slow road, whether it be a steamboat line or any other mode of conveyance. The faster we go, the better we like it. It would not be worth while for the government to provide a subsidy for a fast steamship line if it could not do better than eighteen knots an hour. I do not think we should give a subsidy to a line that would make no greater speed. If we have a fast line at all, it ought to be equal to the very best, or we will not get the travelling public.	[DOT]


Mr. LOGAN.: I can heartily endorse what the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) has said. To subsidize a sixteen knot service would be simply throwing away the money of Canada. Let us either have a fast service or not subsidize a service at all. We have to compete with the New York route. In my opinion, we ought to secure a fast service across the Atlantic with the least possible delay. There seem to be many difficulties in the way of our doing so, and I do not know that the government is at all to blame ; but if we are going to have a fast passenger service, let it be one of twenty-one or twenty-two knots an hour. We should endeavour to divert British travel into Canada through Canadian ports. At present if you will ask travelling Englishmen how they came to this country, nineteen out of twenty will tell you that they came via New York or Boston. But in coming by New York, travellers get a wrong impression of Canada. When a man has visited St. Peter's in Rome

he has no great desire to visit other small cathedrals in Europe. The same principle applies when a man comes from Europe to New York, and then comes from that great metropolis to a Canadian city, his impression of Canada is not as good as would have been formed if he had come across the ocean direct to Quebec, Montreal, Halifax or St. John. Therefore, it seems to me that money spent for a service of sixteen knots, as mentioned by the hon. member for Centre Toronto (Mr. Brock), is money absolutely thrown away. Let us have a fast service, or let us not give Canadian money to secure any kind of a service.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I wish to say one word in reply to the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Brock). That hon. gentleman has overlooked the fact that railway travel is far more comfortable. now than it used to be. On a train you can get as good a bed, I was going to say, as in most of our hotels, and quite as good a table. People are much more ready to travel by railway now than they were twenty years ago. I had the experience myself of travelling from Portland to Ottawa in 1867, and it was a very tedious, trying journey. There were no beds of any kind, and no comfort at all. But it is far different now. If you take the Iuter-colonial from Halifax to Montreal you will get as good table accommodation as in any hotel in Canada, and everything else in keeping.


Mr. HEYD.: It is quite evident that there is a difference of opinion as to the necessity of a fast line service. So far as I am concerned, I am very glad that the government have failed, up to the present time, to make a satisfactory arrangement. I am satisfied that an expenditure of a million or a million and a half per annum to encourage a fast line service would be lost money, so far as the people are concerned. It is a matter of absolute indifference to ninety-nine men out of a hundred whether we have a fast line service or not. Whether we add to the comfort of the few people who may avail themselves of the opportunity to travel by such a line at the expense of the great mass of the people is a matter of no moment. If we have a million or a million and a half of dollars to spend for the encouragement of anything in this way, let us spend it in making the transport of our freight to the old country cheaper and more secure, and so develop that trade in which the great mass of the people are interested. Whether we shall ever be able to induce people, as some think we can, to come from New York and take the fast steamer at Montreal, is also a matter of indifference to the great mass of the people. What we want in Canada is to be able to place in the markets of Europe the products of our Canadian farms in the best possible condition and at the least possible expense.


Hance James Logan: 


Mr. FOWLER.: It seems to me that the most important feature in connection with the whole matter is the question of the freight rates. As I understand it from the figures given by the ex-Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte),. the cost of carrying freight from lake points to Montreal or other Canadian ports is as low as from the lake ports to the American seaboard, but the cost of transport to Europe is greater by way of the Canadian route than by way of the American route, notwithstanding the fact that we have an advantage, and a very considerable advantage, in distance. It seems to me it is the duty of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to apply himself to ascertain what is the cause of that great difference in the freight rates to Europe as between our Canadian ports and the American ports. . If it lies in the fact that the insurance rates are higher, surely some arrangement could be made to obviate that difficulty and lessen the insurance rate. These insurance rates, it seems, have not lessened, or their lessening has not kept pace with the improvements on the St. Lawrence route or the improvements from St. John and Halifax. It is a matter of very great importance to us in the maritime provinces that the products of the great west, so rapidly increasing in quantity, should be carried through a Canadian port. I think we all feel, those from the west as well as those from the east, that if we are going to be a nation, we must carry our own foreign trade through our own ports. Therefore, it seems to me most important that this matter should be looked into and some way found of at least equalizing the freight rates. In fact, the rates should be cheaper by the Canadian than by the American route. It has been complained that the Minister of Trade and Commerce has not very much to do. that the department is a useless department. I understood-I was not in the House, but learned of the matter from my reading- that the present incumbent in this office spent many hours in this House denouncing thie Department of Trade and Commerce as a useless appendage to the government. I suppose the reason the right hon. gentleman has not bestirred himself in the matter now before us is that he wishes to justify the statement he made when in opposition. He declared that the position of Minister of Trade and Commerce was useless, and he proposes to justify it by not performing any duty while he himself remains the incumbent o>f that office. It does seem to me that this is a matter of very great importance and one that has been too long neglected. I trust the right hon. minister will bestir himself and take steps to find [*out where the difficulty lies, and, having found out, will take steps to remove that difficulty.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am inclined to think that at

the present moment the rate from Montreal is quite as cheap as it can possibly be expected to be. A rate on grain of 51c. per 100 pounds is just as cheap as we are likely to get for a considerable time to come.


George William Fowler: I do not know the facts myself, but it has been stated here as a fact that the rate from Montreal and Quebec is higher than the rate from New York, Boston or Portland.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Not at present.


George William Fowler: Then, what becomes of the statement that it is cheaper to ship by the American route, which statement has been made here to-day, and, so far as I have heard, not contradicted?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It is not cheaper during the summer season. Our reduction in tolls has thrown a very large volume of traffic on the port of Montreal.


George William Fowler: Yes, but during the winter season tfhat rate does not obtain, and a great deal of freight is shipped during the winter season from the Atlantic ports.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: During the winter season it is not possible.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Is it not true that in the contracts with some of the lines it is provided that the rate of freight from interior points in Canada to the sea-board and Grfeat Britain shall not bie greater than the rate .of freight from the same point in Canada via New York?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: In some of them it is.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: But, as I understand it, there is no such provision in the contract with the Allans.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Could the hon. minister tell us why.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have already stated that the Allans represent, and I think quite truthfully, that the winter freights are carried at a dead loss from St. John and Halifax.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: But is it not provided in some of the contracts that the rate from Montreal shall not be in excess, of the rate via the American ports?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The contracts with several of the lines from St. John do contain that prd-vision, but not the Allan contract ; and I do not think we could obtain more favourable terms if we were to ask for them. You can abolish this if you like. In my opinion, it is not of the slightest value in the summer season. It is kept on the statute-book because it is a great convenience to the ports of St. John and Halifax.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: That clause in the contract is of very great importance.
I have known cases in which, on account of that clause, a steamer sailing from a Canadian port reduced its freight rate because its rate was shown to be higher than that from an American port. As they were obliged to carry at the same rate, they had to make a reduction, and this was a matter of great importance to the shipper.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am speaking of this particular contract we now have under consideration, and I tell the hon. gentleman that all the parties concerned in it have represented to the department, and I believe truly, that their freights during winter were carried at a dead loss.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How is it that some contractors agree to these terms, while the Allans do not ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Because they make a profit on the summer season, I presume, that about equals the loss that they sustain in winter.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The Allans also run their boats in the summer season. Do they- not make a profit on their summer business ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I say there is no such stipulation in their contract, and I do not think it could be put in to any advantage.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax), It would not be feasible to have it inserted, I suppose the right hon. gentleman means 1


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I doubt very much whether we could obtain it unless we were prepared to pay a larger subsidy.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, it would be some advantage if we could obtain it without any increase in the subsidy?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Certainly.


Robert Laird Borden: As it is contained in some contracts, I suppose that possibly, without a great deal of difficulty, it might be included in this. The service is of some importance no doubt to the ports of Halifax and St. John. But the difficulty about mails and passengers is just this, and I can show it by an illustration. A friend of mine two or three years ago was one of two gentlemen who were in Great Britain. Coming home, one of them left by a steamer direct to Halifax, and the other left the following day by a steamer for New York. The latter arrived in New York, and came thence by rail to Halifax, a day in advance of the gentleman who sailed direct to Halifax. That, of course, is owing


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Considerably better.


Robert Laird Borden: I have seen some comparison made in the papers as to the rate of speed which prevailed forty years ago. I have not verified the record myself, but the gentleman who was making . this contribution to the press proved to his own satisfaction, at least, by the records, which he alleged to be correct, that we were not very much in advance of what we were forty years ago. It has been suggested that an 18-knot service would be a sufficient service from Halifax to the mother country. A gentleman of great experience in these matters pointed out to me once that if we gave a large subsidy for an 18-knot service between Canada and the mother country, we would be practically giving that subsidy for a service between New York and the mother country. The way in which he argued it was this :	He said, suppose you give $500,000 or .$750,000, and the mother country gives half as much, for an 18-knot service or a 19-knot service, the result would be that the second-class boats now running between New York and London would be put on the route between Canada and the mother country, and the money paid as a subsidy would be used for the purpose of putting on first-class boats between New York and the mother country. There may be some force in that. I do not think that any hon. gentleman in this House, at all events on this side, desires to see this service abolished ; but they would very much like to see it improved, they would very much like to see that fast line service that has been in contemplation for the last ten years, a service about which I think there was no division of opinion in the House of Commons in the spring of 1896, when the resolution passed. I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether, in the arrangement which was made by this government with Petersen. Tate & Company, the carriage of the mails was provided for, or was there to be an additional subsidy for carrying the mails ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It was provided for.


Robert Laird Borden: So assuming that could be done for $500,000 a year, it really only amounted to an increase of $350,000. Now, I was in hopes that when the Minister of Trade and Commerce brought this item before the House to-day, he would have been able to give us some more definite information as to the progress of negotiations concerning this fast Atlantic service, which we think is of a good deal of importance to. the country. The negotiations, as the right hon. gentleman knows,


Robert Laird Borden: have been going on for a long time. I may illustrate that fact to him in this way, that since they first begun, eight members have disappeared from this government and have been replaced. I think only six of the gentlemen who were in this government at the time we were assured that the service had been secured for this country, still remain in the government. So this service might very well sing the song of the brook, slightly paraphrased :	' Ministers may come and ministers may go, but our negotiations go on for ever.' Now We have had a good deal of negotiation with Petersen, Tate & Company, which have occupied wearisome time ; then there was a sort of interregnum, and now we have negotiations on again by public tender and advertisements for a service, called, I think, by some of the newspaper men, a long legged and a short legged service, a 21-knot and a 16-knot service. My right hon. friend, when he laid the tenders upon the Table of the House, told us that while the government were not disposed to accept either of the tenders-I think there were only two -the government were of opinion that these tenders might form the basis of further negotiations. I was not in at the beginning of the debate upon this item ; but would the hon. gentleman be good enough to tell us whether these negotiations have made any real or substantial progress, and whether we are any nearer the goal than we were at the commencement of this session?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am sorry to say I am not in a position to give the hon. gentleman the information he desires as to what can be done. The hon. gentleman is aware that since these tenders were laid on the Table the attention of the government has been very much occupied indeed with other matters affecting transportation, and that really we have not had time to give much consideration to the question of the fast Atlantic service ; though certainly we have not lost sight o>f it. But he can very well understand that with the work in hand it is simply impossible to find time to take up the other question.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the minister tell us what is the idea of asking for a 16 and 20-knot service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It was supposed we would obtain a considerable number of tenders. Several [DOT]of the objections that had been raised by parties was the enormous expense of supplying four vessels of the speed that was at first asked for, or supposed to be asked for. Everybody knows that the slightest increase beyond 20 knot means an enormous proportionate, or rather disproportionate, expense in the cost of construction and in the cost of running. It was supposed, erroneously as it would seem, that we might obtain a much larger number of tenders for only
7610

two vessels as we asked for in tlie first instance. I may call attention to this fact, that almost all the freight lines seemed to have practically gone on some such principle. They had only a couple, at the outside, of really Atlantic greyhounds in their service at any one time. Their other vessels have been of less speed. There is a good 'deal of force in what the leader of the opposition has said as to the result of taking a less rate than was named. It might result, as he says, in our having a second-class vessel and practically assisting the New, York route. That has not escaped our attention.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In asking for tenders for a fast service what is the idea in also asking for a sixteen-knot service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The idea is that we will do as the great lines have done ; we will have a couple of very fast vessels making record trips and other vessels which would be a great improvement on the present service, while not requiring the enormous outlay that is, necessary to maintain the fast service.
At six o'clock, committee took recess. After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Some resolutions reported.



RAILWAY ACT, 1903.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 21) to amend and consolidate the law respecting railways.
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We will go on at first and correct some clerical errors in the Bill.


William Findlay Maclean: I would ask the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) what further stage he intends to take tonight in connection with this Bill ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I understand from the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick), who has charge of the Bill, that he has arranged with some members not to proceed with the discussion of any controversial matters. We have simply been engaged in correcting some typographical errors in the Bill.


William Findlay Maclean: The committee will sit again to consider the Bill further ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: What remains to be considered in connection with the Bill ?


William Findlay Maclean: On the third reading,
I intend to propose some amendments.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: But not in
committee ?


William Findlay Maclean: No. I would like the government to give notice when the third reading of the Bill is to be proposed, so that members who are interested in a clause on which they may wish to take the sense of the House may be prepared.


Mr. GUTHRIE.: I desire to move to add a subsection. .	,


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There are one or two members who thought of making suggestions to-night. I told them it was not intended to proceed further. Therefore, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


Edward Frederick Clarke: When is it intended to proceed with the further consideration of the Bill ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE. .: We desire to consult the convenience of the House. Of course it will be well to get the Bill through the House and get it before the Senate as soon as possible. At the same time, as I say, we wish to consult the convenience <ff the House.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You will not proceed with it to-morrow ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The Grand Trunk measure, I understand, is on for tomorrow.


Mr. SCOTT.: I have an amendment to propose which I hope will not prove of a controversial nature. I am willing to go on with it now if the committee is ready to consider it.
Progress reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
For the branch of the Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, including live stock, dairy, cold storage, extension of markets, poultry, seed and fruit divisions ; employees paid from this sum not to be subject to'the Civil Service Act, $220,000.
['I think so.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of the Minister of Finance, House adjourned at 12.35 a.m., Thursday.', 'Thursday, July 30, 1903.']
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This is the Item comprising cold storage and the general work under Prof. Robertson. It was passed some weeks ago, but the hon. gentlemen asked for an opportunity to discuss It again when I would be able to give them some more Information with regard to it.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How is this amount of $220,000 to be apportioned among the different branches ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: As follows :	At the head office, $26,800;
live stock division. $21,460 ; dairying division, $37,S40 ; cold storage division, $77,000 ; fruit division, $19,600; seed division, $14,400; extension of markets division, $15,200;
I poultry division, $7,700.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Is tills $77,000 entirely for cold storage on ocean vessels ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, there is for cold storage on vessels, $53,000.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How much has been spent for cold storage on vessels altogether up to the present time ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think that is in a report of the department. Not long ago, I think in the early part of the session, that information was brought down to the House.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: In that return the amount was said to be $134,000. How much has been spent since that time, up to the 1st of June last ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Speaking from memory I think payments were made just before the beginning of this fiscal year, to the amount of $26,000.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What cold storage is it proposed to effect with this $36,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This is for refrigerator chambers. The contracts with these vessels are all expired and terminated, and this money is for the circulation of cooled air entirely.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What were the agreements made with the different steamship companies when the cold storage plant was put in, with regard to temperature ? Did the government arrange that they would have control of the temperature for" the cold storage proper ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not a copy of these agreements here, but speaking from memory, the temperature was to be about thirty-five, that is the temperature at which the ships were to hold the chambers, thirty-five to forty.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: In the annual report I see that the minister recommends that butter should be carried at about twenty.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is true, but the ships have of their own accord lowered the temperature for butter. Our original contract, when we gave assistance for these cold storage chambers, was made at a time when the butter shippers only required a temperature above freezing, and the contracts included not only butter but chilled meat and fruit; therefore we only required a temperature that was considered to be low enough to carry all the goods that were included. Since that time butter shippers have demanded a much lower temperature, and the shippers have voluntarily reduced the temperature. To-day our thermograph shows a temperature ranging much below


Hon. Mr. FISHER.: thirty in the butter compartment. Of course in the other compartments where cheese, meats and fruits are put, which are not allowed to freeze, the temperature must range higher.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I would remind the minister that several of these steamers have carried butter at a much higher temperature. I notice in the minister's report that he specifies one steamer as having carried it at a temperature of something like fifty-six degrees. On the ' Preterian,' the average temperature was forty-three to forty-seven for butter.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That was on a steamer whose contract with us had expired, and we had no longer control over her temperature. But we still put thermographs in all the steamers to record the temperature, though we are not able, after the contract has expired, to control the temperature in the holds. I may_ say, however, that the ships which are furnished with our thermographs and not allowed to carry at low temperature, are getting very little butter, because shippers will not send their butter except in those ships which have shown a good record by our thermograph.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Then I understand that the government have no control over those vessels which have had subsidies from the government, as to temperature, after the expiry of a certain term of years.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Our control expires when the contract expires.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How long does the contract last ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Three years. We paid these ships in three annual instalments, and after that term has expired we have no control. The origin of this work was that at the time it was initiated by my department the ship owners said that the trade and the requirements of this cold storage were so uncertain that they were so little likely to be able to get goods to fill these compartments that they could not afford to put in the chambers. For the purpose of showing the advantages to the trade of these compartments the government assisted them to put in the compartments and the machinery necessary to maintain a cold temperature. That was done for three years. Wo believed at that time that after three years of test the advantages of this system would be so proven that the trade would require a continuance of it, and that the shipowners would find that the advantage of the continuance of it was so great that they would carry it on themselves. In many cases that has occurred ; in fact, the shipowners themselves have put in a great many of these cold storage plants without any assistance and without entering into any contract with the government.
VL ta


William Ross: May I ask the hon. minister whether all the butter and cheese exported from this country in vessels goes in cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Practically all the butter tnat is now exported in the summer time from Canada goes in cold storage. The cheese does not, except in very warm weather. Cooled chambers are preferred for cheese to absolutely cold chambers, and, as a matter of fact, experience has shown that it is only butter that requires such a low temperature as 20. Meats require a temperature a few degrees below freezing. Cheese .and apples seem to be served better by cooled air driven through and amongst these products serving the purpose of keeping the temperature down to about 60.


William Ross: Are the ships provided with cooled air chambers ?
The MINISTER - OF AGRICULTURE. Yes.


William Ross: All the ships that are engaged in this trade, or only certain ships ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There were certain ships which had the original cold chambers for low temperatures. We have now made arrangements with certain ships for cooled chambers, but the two systems are entirely different and worked independently.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Did the contract on the ' Pomeranian ' expire last season ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I cannot tell off-hand the names of the vessels, but I think her contract did expire last season. That was for cold storage. I do not think that there was any vessel under contract for the season of 1902 for cold storage.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I would judge from that that no money 1ms been paid by the government for cold storage for some years, if all the contracts are three years old or more.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I cannot say exactly when the last money was paid, but the accounts for some of these cold storage subventions were not closed up. I think, during the year 1902, that some payments may have been made, but I think, I am pretty correct in saying that there was no ship under contract for the season of 1902 for cold storage. That is for the old system of cold storage.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It is very unfortunate that the government in making these contracts did not provide for control of the temperature for a longer period than three years. A good deal of money has been expended for cold storage, and I am sure it
has not been thrown away if we have a cold storage service, but when we find that there are a great many of these boats carrying products in a temperature of from 45 to 60 and the government have no control over the matter it seems rather an unfortunate condition of affairs. Surely, when the contract was made, it would have been a good condition to have put in the contract that the government should retain a certain control over the temperature for a longer term than three years.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We could not get control for a longer period than the period during which we were making the payments. As long as we were making the payments we had a hold upon the companies. When payments were finished we could not control the owners of the ships. The ships in many cases have taken off the service and other ships put on and the owners of the ships hold themselves free to take these ships wherever they like.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: In regard to fruit the hon. gentleman says correctly that the temperature should be 35. I would like to draw his attention to the steamer ' Lak-onia ' September, .1900. That is surely when the contract was in existence three years ago. There was a temperature in one compartment of from 39 to 60 degrees and in another compartment, of from 28 to 50 degrees.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not in my mind the details that the hon. gentleman speaks of. I suppose he is reading from a return which was made to an Order of the House ?


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Yes.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I could not say anything about that particular case.


William Ross: Complaints were made to me by an apple shipper regarding the placing of fruit upon the steamer. The fruit was shipped in the ordinary way not intended to go into cold storage, and the complaint was that it was placed in a part of the vessel not properly ventilated. The apples were in good condition when shipped and they arrived in very poor condition, and the surmise was that these apples might have been put too near the engine or in a heated part of the ship. Are there any inspectors in the department whose business it is to see that apples are properly placed in the ship '!


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The first duty of the inspectors that we have at the port of Montreal to look after that work is to see to the special chambers which are prepared for products. If they are able besides that to have a general supervision of the manner in which stowage is done in all the ships they are to do that also. I was talking only the other day with one of


the most efficient of these inspectors and one who lias been for the longest time at this work upon this subject. I happened to meet him, and discussing his work quite informally with him, I asked him some questions on that very point. He told me that as a matter of fact the stevedores understood thoroughly well the demands of the different kinds of products that they had to-put into the ship and that it was quite an unusual thing for apples to be put in a place where they would be unduly heated. He said that such a thing might occur occasionally, but very very seldom, and his opportunities of observing" are probably as good as any one in the country. He said that whenever he had observed anything of the kind he had drawn tiie attention of the stevedores to it and he had always found them quite willing to see that the cargo was properly stowed in a place suitable to its carriage. Our inspectors have no absolute control over the stevedores. All they can do is to draw attention to the matter and report to the shipper so as to enable him to recover from the ship owner if his fruit was damaged by being improperly stored in the hold.


William Ross: We have inspectors to see that proper space is given to cattle on the ocean voyage, and that is a very important matter. But if the condition of things exists as was represented to me, it is a calamity that apples especially should be shipped in a manner in which they are liable to get overheated. The greater portion of the apples that are shipped from Canada alre shipped as ordinary freight; and under these circumstances I think it would Hie in the interests of the trade of the country if an inspector were appointed to see that these apples are properly placed in the vessel.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The inspectors do watch it, but it is not their first duty, and it may be better that a man should be appointed for that express purpose when the apple shipping season comes. All the complaints have been with regard to apples, but from the report of the inspector I do not think there is a' great deal of difficulty even with apples. However, it may be well to obviate whatever difficulty there is when the apple shipping season comes around.


Mr. MACKINNON.: A year ago the government established a service between Charlottetown and Manchester by the Manchester Line. The service was a very good one and the cold storage was all right, but in one case the steamer did not arrive at the date prescribed and the shippers who had collected the cargo at Charlottetown were put to heavy loss. They had to feed the cattle, and to go to expense in preserving the other products until the steamer arrived. Is there any hope that these people will get compensation out of the subsidy. Is Hon. Mr. FISHER.
there any method which the department can adopt by which these gentlemen who lost so heavily can be compensated. The steamer was advertised to sail in November, but she did not turn up until December, and then she went to Georgetown, so that the cattle, and the rest of the cargo had to be shipped there at heavy expense to the shippers. A great many people in the island are interested in the matter, and they think that since the government was subsidizing the steamer, the government should reserve part of the subsidy and apply it to compensating them to some extent. Can the minister do anything in the matter ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The subsidy is entirely in the hands of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and my department has no control over it. When the subsidy was given I was consulted as to the cold storage accommodation on these ships, but what my hon. friend says now is the first intimation I have had of the facts of this case. I will draw the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the matter and if the subsidy has not already been paid I will ask him to see whether something cannot be done in the matter. I take it, however, that it would rather be a matter of recourse against the ship-owners for non-fulfilment of their contract. However, I will draw the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the matter.


Mr. BRODER.: Is any portion of this vote to be applied towards the maintenance of icing cars from internal points to points of shipment ? It is very important to the cheese industry of the country that cheese should be placed in these cars from internal points to the points of export. The system was tried last summer and I believe was satisfactory.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have made an arrangement to extend that service very largely.


Andrew Broder: I am very glad to hear it.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have, arrangements now for about one hundred iced cars per week for the carriage of cheese. It was successful last year and it is to be very much extended. In addition to that fliere is a very large number of specially ventilated cars being built by the railway] companies for the express purpose of carrying cheese and fruit, and the railway companies have done that in consequence of the representations made by us. These cars will be available for the service this year.


Andrew Broder: When cheese arrives in (he old country is there any provision to carry it in cold storage cars to points in the interior ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We are not paying for any service there,

but in consequence of tbe representations made by our agents in England a considerable number of refrigerator cars have been placed on the railway lines, particularly those leading from London and from Bristol.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: If the minister will look at the ' Lakonia's ' report for September 12th, 1901, he will see that the temperature ranged from 28 to 50. For several hours it stood at 28, four degrees below freezing point, which of course would utterly ruin tender fruit.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not know what was in the chamber at the time, but there certainly should not have been such variation of temperature as appears to have been the case. An instance camei to my attention not very long ago, a lot of butter which was found to be very warm was put into the second chamber, and the thermograph was put in alongside of some of the packages of this butter. The ordinary thermometer in the chamber showed a perfectly even temperature, while the thermograph showed an irregular tem-perture. When this extraordinary condition of affairs was tested, it was found that the irregular temperature was in one part of the chamber only, while there was an even temperature in other parts. An accident of that kind might happen in any chamber. It could not happen if the chamber was full of fruit.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The minister will see that it is stated on the back of the return that it was tender fruit. Are butter and fruit allowed to go in the same compartment ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Oh, no. I may say that this high rise in the temperature up to seventy took place after the chamber was opened.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I do not refer to that; but the temperature was at fifty for a long while after the fruit was put in.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Probably the fruit was very hot when it was put in.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: If the hon. minister will look at No. 175 of the same boat, he will find that the temperature was sixty in that case. That is altogether too high.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is very evident from this chart that there must have been a lot of very hot fruit put in, so that it took the chamber a long time to cool. It apparently took from Thursday, when the temperature was at sixty, until Sunday evening to get it down to fifty, and it was only on Wednesday that it got down to forty, where it ought to be. It is, I might almost say, absolutely impossible, if a great mass of hot fruit or butter is put 239
into the chamber, to get the chamber down to the proper temperature immediately. One of the greatest dangers we have to contend with lies in the fact that the goods arrive at Montreal in a very warm condition, and if they are immediately put into the chamber it is impossible to get the temperature lowered for some little time, even with the machinery working at its fullest capacity and the chamber right in every respect.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that both the butter and the fruit always arrive in refrigerator cars.	.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not always the fruit.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The tender fruit surely. I think it is all shipped at Grimsby, where it is kept in the government cold storage establishment. From there it is transferred to a cold storage car. If the hon. minister will peruse some thermograph records, he will see that the fruit, and also the butter, were brought down to the proper temperature almost immediately on being put into the boat, and they were kept at an even temperature all the way across the ocean; which goes to show that the fault is with the man in charge of the cold storage on the boat. That is evident because there are so many cases in which both fruit and butter have been carried as well as it is possible to carry them. I could cite a dozen more cases of fruit being carried in a ridiculously high temperature, or in an uneven temperature, and in some cases in a temperature below the freezing point. Some of us who have made these tests at Grimsby have wondered why we could not have these fruits carried to the old country in good condition when we could keep them in good condition in our own cold storage establishments for two months. Yet the choice fruit which we sent to the old country in cold chambers was said to have arrived there in a decayed condition. We were told that the fault must be with the packing and the management of the fruit before it arrived at the, boat. But when I see these returns and the report of the thermograph, which is an absolute test, and which shows what occurred on the way across the ocean, I cannot wonder at the results. The fact is that the cold storage shipment of tender fruits from Ontario is practically killed. To-day we are not shipping anything except hard late pears. We dare not ship even Bartlets, the staple pear of commerce much less peaches and plums. We spent considerable money in making experiments, and we strongly hoped that a large trade would be built up. England wants the fruit of which we have a superabundance and we can keep this fruit in perfect condition in our own cold storage plants for a much longer time than it takes to go to England; and why cannot it be taken across



tlie Atlantic ? It seems to me that the minister has not kept his promise to us in this matter, but that he has been very negligent of the interests of the fruit growers of Ontario, who hoped that he would develop this trade.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think the hon. gentleman is jumping to a rather hasty conclusion. He says that there are a number of instances in which the fruit was carried in an even temperature and in good condition. I have no doubt that where that was the case, the fruit was put into cold storage in proper condition. There are other cases iu which the temperature of the chamber was too high at the beginning of the voyage and continued to be too high for some little time. My information is that it depends very largely on the condition of the fruit. If the fruit is in a heated condition when it is put into the chamber, it is impossible to reduce the temperature immediately. Very frequently the fruit itself, in a certain condition of ripeness, generates heat, and heats the chamber in which it is. The cooling apparatus cannot immediately overcome that. It is very much easier to put fruit into a cold chamber at the orchard, close to where it is picked, and to keep that at an even temperature, than it is to put it into a car and bring it to Montreal, and put it into a cold storage chamber there to be carried over to England. A comparison between the two is unfair. It is much easier to maintain it at the same temperature when put into cold storage and kept in the place where it is packed, than when it is carted from one place to another. I do not profess that this work is perfect, but I think great improvements have been made. These thermographic charts were only begun in 1900 and have contributed to greater regularity and efficiency in the working of their machinery. I find that the temperatures have been published regularly aud are improving steadily. Probably in certain instances the temperature has not been what it ought to be, but we immediately report such instances to the ship owners, and the men who are irregular are immediately dismissed, because the ship owners are extremely anxious to make a good showing in their cold storage chambers, as that is the only way they can secure the trade which they are very desirous to get. I think my hon. friend is too pessimistic. I know that a good deal of fruit sent forward last year and the year before, especially the year before, arrived in good order. Last year the fruit was of an inferior quality, so that not so much was exported and the returns were not so satisfactory. But the unsatisfactory returns were not due in any way to the lack of cold storage.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: This return shows 31,000 packages, how much of that was Canadian and how much Californian fruit that went forward last year?


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not the details with regard to that.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: So far as the shipments from Grimsby district are concerned, they were not many last year. According to this return there were none the year before. The hon. gentleman says that improvements are being made. These are, no doubt, due to urgent representations to his department. Looking at the returns of the * Maria,' I find that in 1901 the temperature was 32-38 throughout the voyage, which is what it should be, but in 1902 it was 40-.-52. No. 89, so that instead of being improved it got to be worse. The hon. minister admits that he has no control over these temperatures. Here was a period when the contract had not expired, yet the temperatures were outrageously high, and in some cases far too low.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not know whether the contract with regard to that particular vessel had expired. It may not have expired on the first occasion and may have expired on the second occasion.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: With regard to the arrival of the fruit in vessels at different temperatures, they all go through the same process and should arrive in the same condition. Take the government plant at Grimsby


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is not managed by the government. The building belongs to the department, but we have had nothing to do with the management. We gave it to the people there some time ago.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: At any rate it goes through the same process. It is put into a cold storage chamber and goes in cold storage to Montreal, where it is transferred to the vessels, so that I cannot see why one lot should come in all right and another in bad condition.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That depends a good deal on the ripeness of the fruit. One lot may come out all right aud the other may be all wrong just because the condition of the fruit in each lot was different.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The growers must have learnt by this time the right stage of ripeness in which their fruit should be when put in cold storage, instead of putting their fruit up in worse condition year after year they have beeen putting it up in better condition each year. Certainly they are not so stupid as not to learn how their fruit should be put up after six years' experience in this line. It therefore should go on the boat in better condition each year and come off in better condition. I would like to ask how many vessels have been fitted up with cool air appparatus. I understand that a large part of this vote is for the

establishment of refrigerator vessels for the production of cool air. What is the extra charge for the carrying of products on these vessels ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I find that the Allan Line has three steamers, the Thompson Line five steamers, the; Donaldson Line one, and the Elder Dempster two steamers, making altogether eleven steamers fitted up with cool air circulation. Others have been fitted up since, without any contract, by the ship-owners themselves. The rate they charge is ten shillings per ton on cheese and the equivalent to that on apples.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What is the difference between these two plants, cold storage and cool air ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is practically a difference in temperature. In the cold storage plant, the chambers are shut up entirely. In the cool air plant there is a circulation of air and the temperature is only required to be down to sixty. In the cold storage it is much lower.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It will cost much less to keep the temperature at 60 than 30 or 32.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The arrangement for circulation and ventilation costs more. The air has to be cooled and forced through, and there is constant change of air, whereas, in the cold storage chambers, which are tight, they get the temperature down to a certain point and it takes but little to keep it there.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: That might account for the bad carrying of freight in cold storage chambers. There is no circulation of air. In our private cold storage establishments, we do have a circulation of air. What steps have been taken to ascertain with certainty whether in the forced air plants the circulation of air is kept up during the voyage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have thermographs in these as in the cold storage chambers. Consequently, we know the temperatures.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I have some figures summarizing certain reports of the thermograph records where there was ventilated storage. The average minimum temperature was 4-.54, and maximum, 67i. And in eleven records, where the cold air plant had been provided, and for the benefit of which the shippers paid ten shillings per ton extra, the average minimum was 551, and maximum 66 4-11. So, there was practically no difference. It is true that the eleven instances I have averaged were those in which the temperature was highest out of twenty-three. Yet the cooled air system costs very large sums to the government for the installation of the plant, 239i
and the shippers paid ten shillings a ton extra, yet the practical result is that there is no lower temperature than is secured by the system of ventilation.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not the data before me which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Smith, Wentworth) has. I think he will find that the figures depend upon the period of the year and the weather. If in one case the figures were for the summer, and in the other for the autumn, that would explain the matter.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The cases of ventilated storage I referred to were: August 19th and September 23rd, the ' Sar-matian ' ; August 21st, the ' Importer ' ; August 1st, the ' Numidian ' ; August 8th, the ' Pomeranian,' and October 10th, the ' Commerce.' The cases of cold storage were September 26th, September 17th, July 18th, August 24th, August 28th, August 1st, July 18th, July 4th, July 11th, June 27th, and June 19th. So, the figures cover practically the same season.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I may say that last season was a particularly cool season, and did not show the full effects of this system of the circulation of cool air. That was remarked by shippers last year, and, as a matter of fact, many of the cheese shippers did not send goods in cool air chambers because of that fact.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Has the minister taken definite steps to ascertain whether this forcing of air through the holds has been properly carried out ? My opinion has always been that although steamers put in this plant, which costs very little, in many cases the plant is not operated. Of course, in many cases it is, and excellent results are secured. I know of many cases where the results have been observed and most favourably commented upon on the other side. I have known cases of apples, the same variety picked at the same time and packed at the same time by the same parties, taken from the same storage at the same time, but shipped in different compartments of the steamer, yet some coming out in good condition and others in very bad condition. It must be that there is a difference in the storage on the vessel. I cannot explain it except on the idea that in some compartments the ventilation system is carried out, thus securing low temperature where the apples are, besides having pure air, while in other cases the hatches are battened down and the fans not used. I have suggested to the minister that it is easy to ascertain whether the fans were operated or not. All that is necessary is to put a thermograph where the apples are and another on deck. If the two correspond, that is proof that the fans are operated.


The MINISTER OE AGRICULTURE.: I ordered a large number of extra thermographs and have given most positive and reiterated instructions to the officers in charge that no chamber shall be allowed to go without a thermograph in it. If it is there it will show the temperature, and we shall be able to know whether the fans are used or not. My instructions are plain and positive and I believe they will be carried out.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 1 am glad to hear the minister say that. It has taken a long time, but at least we seem to be getting to the point where we may hope to get a good service and be able to carry our perishable goods across in good condition. If the people are allowed to know which vessels do carry cargoes perfectly, it will be a great advantage to the country.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: These thermograph records are posted on the board of trade of Montreal, and there the people in the trade who are interested can examine them and see for themselves.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Do the steamship people, or those in charge in this country make every effort to resist the government-


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Oh, yes.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It appeared to me that the fault lay with the officers in charge of the vessels.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I cannot say positively as to that. I would not like, without greater knowledge than I have, to accuse anybody. But the hon. gentleman can. understand that a new system-for, though it has been working for a number of years here, it is still new to a great many people concerned-will not be worked perfectly for some time. But I am satisfied that the ship owners, and, as a general rule, their officers are desirous of carrying it out properly and are doing all they can to that end.


Mr. CLANCY.: I am sure the committee has listened to the Minister of Agriculture with no small degree of disappointment. The hon. gentleman has been very profuse in his advertising, especially on the occasion of election contests, advertising the success of his department, and particularly of the cold storage. And now we have the deplorable spectacle of the hon. gentleman admitting tfhat cold storage under his administration has been a dismal failure and that to-day it is worse than it was the day he took hold of it. Immense sums of money were voted by this parliament for cold storage. The hon. gentleman has abandoned the undertakings one after the other, and those systems that have been put in have turned out most unsatisfactory. My hon. friend from Wentworth (Mr. Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).
Smith) has pointed out wihat seems to be a severe lesson to the hon. gentleman; I hope he will take it to heart, aud I am quite sure the people of this country will take it to heart. He has pointed out that the cold storage system is a mere mockery, and there is no hope that it will be brought to a proper condition. It is used to-day for butter almost alone. The hon. gentleman stated on a former occasion that outside of poultry, meat and butter, the shippers would not pay the extra sum they were being charged for cold storage. The country has learned long ago that there was no such thing as cold storage in the sense the hon. gentleman speaks of; and after he has been nearly seven years in office, and after declaring that he had made it a perfect system, he is to-day compelled to come before the House and admit that his system is in a most deplorable condition. He has not said so in so many words, but he has disclosed the fact by his admissions to my hon. friend from Wentworth, who has gone somewhat thoroughly into this matter. I think this House would be prepared to vote any reasonable sum of money for a service of that kind. But the hon. gentleman has squandered thousands and thousands of dollars to no purpose. There seems to be but little hope that the hon. gentleman will be able to offer to the fruit growers and shippers of this country any relief from the present unsatisfactory condition of things. I do not know whether this committee would be justified in giving the hon. gentleman the additional sums of money that he is asking for. We had a cold storage service which was said to be very expensive, steamships were assisted by the government, but at the end of a three years' contract it has been abandoned. I want to repeat what my hon. friend from Wentworth has said, that there has not only been carelessness in taking a contract for so short a period as three years for so large a sum, but that during the period that contract was in existence there was either gross negligence on the part of tlie steamship companies or their officers, or on the part of the Minister of Agriculture in failing to enforce the conditions of the contract. I repeat that it is a dismal condition of things, and that we stand precisely where we were, if not infinitely worse off than we were in 1896.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I suppose the hon. gentleman is disposed to be a 'little facetious on this matter. I will not go into details, but I will only say that if he should to-day propose to the shippers of Canadian produce to return to the condition of affairs that existed in 1896-97 he would be met with a storm of indignant protests. I have before me a statement which was made by the chairman of the Home and Foreign Produce Exchange, Limited, of London, England, in which they state that two steamers which sailed from Montreal to London fitted with cooled air

arrangements, have proved a great success, and tliey say that it would serve the best interests of Canadian shippers if all steamers were so fitted up. That experiment was made the year before last, and it was continued last year, because we found it so successful. The success of the cold storage arrangements cannot be contradicted, even though here and there an apparent failure may occur in the great number of vessels going out every year from our ports fitted up in this way. But I have the constant support of the people who send their produce in these vessels, especially the shippers of butter and cheese. The cases of failure instanced by the hon. member for Wentworth are cases in which the fruit perhaps did not go forward in as perfect a condition as it should. There may have been some slackness on the ships, but I do not think the fact that these shipments arrived in poor condition proves any defect in the system. I acknowledge that there may be an occasional shipment going forward in cold storage which would not be perfectly successful-possibly including cheese, though no case has been called to my attention where difficulty has occurred with cheese. Occasionally products are put into refrigerator cars in such a condition that it is impossible for the ice to overcome the heat in these packages when they are put in. We are trying to induce the people who ship butter and other things to see that when the stuff is put into the car it is in proper condition. Our refrigerator cars are not for the purpose of cooling things, our refrigerators on ships are not for the purpose of cooling things, they are for the purpose of preserving things which are already cool. We do not profess to supply ice to cool butter and fruit, but we do profess to see that cars are so iced that things which are put into them in a reasonable cool condition will be maintained in that condition. The same on the ships. But if heated stuff is put into the chambers it will require some time before any cooling apparatus that we can provide can bring them down to the right temperature. The men who do business with these refrigerators would be the last men to allow that they should go back to the condition of things when this work was commenced by the department.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman has been told that shippers of fruit are not novices at that sort of thing. He assumes that in every case where the shipment has gone forward in bad condition, it has been received in bad condition. The hon. gentleman lias no evidence in support of that assumption. His assumption that the shipments were sent aboard the refrigerator cars in bad condition is not fair to the shippers.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Speaking of proof, I have had an inspector out during last fall, last summer, and this
summer, who is testing the temperature of the butter that is put into the car, and watching these shipments, and he has found dozens of cases where it has had a temperature as high as sixty when put into the refrigerator car. So that my evidence is quite complete upon that point and my hon. friend is mistaken in believing that I am assuming.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman says that the butter has all been landed in good condition. The hon. gentleman is not making out his case because he declares that if there has been any butter not arriving in good condition he is not aware of it. Now, the hon. gentleman wishes to shift his position and to say that even butter received in baa condition has been landed in good condition in the old country, so that the hon. gentleman is in rather an unfortunate position. Is it possible that it may have gone in fairly good condition if it had not gone in cold storage ? I am going to assume that it would not have gone in good condition under those circumstances. I think it is fair to say that the cold storage system properly carried out is a good thing. The only regret I have is that so far it has not been a success. It was believed at one time that our perishable fruits could go forward in good condition, but, the hon. minister must admit that up to this time that part of it has been a decided failure. Whether the hon. gentleman will be able to overcome that or not seems doubtful at this moment, but I again ask the hon. gentleman if he has had any evidence of fruit going aboard the cars in bad condition, because it is no doubt a fact, that fruit has arrived on the other side of the Atlantic in a decidedly bad condition.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have not been taking the temperatures in regard to fruit in the same way as we have in regard to butter. We have found that fruit arriving in Montreal to go on board the ships was so ripe that it was in a heated condition, not from the cars in any way, but from the overripeness, and I think there is no doubt that that fruit must have gone into the cars in a condition unfit for transhipment.


Mr. BLAIN.: Is all of the fruit that is put into these cars inspected by a government inspector ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No.


Richard Blain: Would that not be worthy of the attention of the hon. minister? It seems to me that if fruit arrives in bad condition in the old country there should be an explanation given to the public why it has arrived in that condition, and if the responsibility does not rest upon the government it should rest upon the proper party who would be the shipper.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have inspected as much as we can at

Montreal, but, not by any means all of the fruit. It would be almost impossible, physi-eially to attempt an inspection of the fruit going forward in these cars, although we might make a special effort to inspect the fruit going in cold storage more than we do In other respects. We have done that to a considerable extent, but still not by any means completely.


Richard Blain: How has the fruit arrived that has been inspected by the government inspector ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have never undertaken to stop fruit if it is in bad condition. We have no authority to do so. We have to allow it to go forward and the result has been that fruit in bad condition in Montreal arrived on the other side in bad condition. Fruit in good condition when put into the ships at Montreal arrived forward as a rule in good condition.


Richard Blain: 
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not seen a copy of the Bill but I know that there was a Bill which did make some exceptions in connection with certain classes of Irish butter and allowed them privileges that other butters in the markets of the United Kingdom are not allowed. That is, of course, a regulation of the home authorities over which we have no control. I am trying to get information in regard to it, but I have not yet obtained any. I saw the item in question and that was the first intimation I had that Irish butters generally were exempted from the operation of the law requiring only 16 per cent of water in butter. I have not yet had any further details about it; but, I hope to get them very soon.


Richard Blain: Has Irish butter, when it goes upon the market in the old country, any special stamp upon it to distinguish it from Canadian butter?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Only the private stamp. Of course, nearly all butter Is marked in some way or other when it goes upon the market. Our Canadian butter has to be marked with the word ' Canadian ' and Irish butter has special Hon. Mr. FISHER.
stamps or brands put upon it which are known in the markets of England. I am not aware that Irish butter is given any particular stamp as Irish butter.


Richard Blain: How is butter usually put up upon the London, Glasgow and Liverpool markets with which our butter comes into competition ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Of course butter is put up in all sorts of shapes just as our butter is put up in different shapes. There is some Irish butter put up in boxes, something like our own. Most of our butter is sent to England in square boxes but a good deal still goes forward in the old fashioned tubs. Irish butter is put up in different packages, some of it similar to our own, but according to our own law all butter going forward from Canada is marked ' Canadian ' on the package. Of course, when it is turned out in retail stores it would not have that mark upon it. There is an English law which requires that all provisions coming from outside the united kingdom shall be marked with the name of the country from which they come whether foreign or colonial. For instance butter from Canada is marked ' Canadian,' New Zealand, is marked New Zealand. Australian is marked ' Australian,' Dutch is marked ' Dutch,' French is marked 'French' and so on. I do not think that law would require Irish butter to be marked ' Irish ' because Ireland is part of the united kingdom.


Richard Blain: Could the hon. minister tell us how the Canadian trade in butter is prospering ? We see general statements and read the reports in the newspapers. Can the minister tell us the quantity of butter exported from each province last year, and whether it was put up in pound rolls or in what kind of packages ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The production of butter in Canada is less this year than usual, due to a large extent to the high price of cheese, so that factories which were equipped both for butter and cheese making, turned their attention to cheese, and also due to the fact that in the earlier part of the season we had a great drought andi the production of milk was smaller than usual. Nineteen hundred was a large year ; 1901 was a trifle smaller than 1900, but I think it is the largest except 1900 we ever had up to that date ; 1902 was abnormally large and this year has fallen back very much. This year we have exported only about two-tliirds the amount exported last year, but of course that does not show the quantity of butter in storage throughout the country. The reports say that the butter is arriving in England this year in most excellent condition. The reports issued by Mr. Weddell, a well-known firm in London, speak highly of our butter. We are exporting chiefly in fifty-six pound

boxes and there is a considerable quantity being shipped in tubs. Until a few years ago the round tinnet was practically the Canadian package, but the square box has taken its place, and about 75 per cent of our butter now goes in the square boxes. The rolls or blocks are only for the local trade, and very little if any of them go to Great Britain.


Richard Blain: About two years ago I noticed a statement that a large portion of the butter used in the Yukon was supplied from the United States. Is that still the case ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am happy to say that the Canadians are supplying the Yukon market with butter now, and the government creameries in the North-west are shipping largely into that territory.


Aaron Abel Wright: I may say that I have been over in England with butter and I have seen the Irish butter coming into the Liverpool and London markets in all manner of shapes the same as butter comes to the Montreal market. There is no danger of our coming into competition with the Irish butter, because there is no doubt that we make butter better and can beat them every time. If reports in the newspapers are correct the percentage of water in. butter applies only to the Irish butter, and if we do not send any butter over there with more than 16 per cent of water in it there is no danger of our trade being injured. We have tried to ship butter to ithe old country in prints, but it does not keep nearly as well as when sent in fifty-six pound boxes. Occasionally a few of the seventy pound tubs are sent, but nearly everything goes in the fifty-six pound boxes now.
Mr. CLANCY'. Was there any conference at any time between the Ontario government and the Department of Agriculture here having regard to the partial system of cold storage that was instituted by the Ontario government ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not remember any conference within the last two years with the Ontario government in regard to any matter of that kind. Some years ago there was a proposition made by the Ontario government for certain co-operation in regard to cold storage work and there were some shipments made by the Ontario government, but I had no official connection with them. That was over two years ago I think, and I have no information that I can give to the hon. gentleman with regard to it.


James Clancy: The minister is about right when he says that it was two years ago, because the Prime Minister of Ontario was preparing for the elections and he was telling the farmers of Ontario that they would
have cold storage at their doors. For what length of time does the contract run for what is known as the cooled system of cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think the contract for the cooling chambers covers two payments and is for two years.


James Clancy: What is being paid for the cooling chambers as compared with what was called cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We are paying half the cost of the plant, not to exceed $7,000 per ship, and that payment is extended over one quarter of one year and one quarter of another.


James Clancy: What was paid for the cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Half the cost, running up to $12,000 per ship, in some instances more than that, according to the size of the compartments and the strength of the machinery.


James Clancy: Two years seems to me to be a very short period, when the hon. gentleman pays half the cost of installing the plant, which at the end of the two years becomes the property of the steamship company. It seems to me that we have no adequate return for so large an expenditure of money, especially in view of the fact that the shipper must pay as much as he did under the cold storage system. Did the hon. gentleman find it impossible to make contracts extending over a longer period, or had he some reason for making such exceedingly short contracts ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I did find it impossible to bind the companies for any longer period. Experience lias shown that if the efficacy of the work is once proved, the demands of the trade require it to be carried on. We found that in the ease of the old cold storage system, and I am satisfied that we shall find it to be the case with the cooling chamber.


James Clancy: I suppose these contracts have been made with the steamship companies with whom the contracts for cold storage were made ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The contracts for the old cold storage practically covered all the ship lines which came to Canada, and these contracts are with the same people. There were no others to make them with.


James Clancy: If the system is to have such a future as the hon. gentleman seems to hope for, is it not fair to assume that we have gone beyond the experimental stage ? If the cold storage system has been a sufficient success to induce the steamship companies to put in the plants themselves, or with the assistance of the government in

the past, it is no longer an experiment; and if the steamship companies are not disposed to install this plant on getting the large sum of ten shillings per ton extra for the goods shipped in cold storage, one is at a loss to understand why the government of Canada should contribute a dollar towards it. If the mold storage system has been even a measurable success, even in a few articles, it seems to me that the steamship companies should not refuse to install even the cheaper system for which they charge higher rates than they did for the other system. It seems that the experiment has not been such a success as to induce the steamship companies to install the plants at their own expense, and that they are expecting more from the government of Canada than they are entitled to receive.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It was with the greatest difficulty that we were able to induce the steamship companies to put in these chambers, because they did not know whether or not the experiment would be a success. We tried the experiment on two ships first, and the reports were satisfactory ; but even with that result we had the greatest difficulty in inducing the steamship companies to agree to it. I confidently believe, however, that it will be a sufficient success on these eleven ships to induce other companies to adopt it, or the same companies to put the apparatus into other ships. But until we had started it on a sufficient scale to show tlie benefits of it to the trade, we were not able to get them to take it up.


James Clancy: Do I understand the minister to say that all the steamships which were fitted up with the plants for cold storage are now being fitted up with what are known as cooling chambers ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Speaking from memory, I think there are over forty ships fitted with the old cold storage; but we have only succeeded in getting eleven ships fitted with the cooling chambers. I do not know' whether all these ships have the old cold storage or not. Most of them have.


James Clancy: Are the ships that were originally fitted up with cold storage continuing to keep up an efficient plant ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Every ship we know of is.


James Clancy: I am afraid the hon. gentleman is answering hastily. He has no control over them, and the contracts have ceased.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: My hon. friend forgets that we have the records of them. We put thermographs into their cold storage chambers, and we watch their operations, although we do not force them to do w'hat they originally did.


James Clancy: 


James Clancy: How many creameries are now in operation in the North-west, and what is the condition of the undertaking there ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In 1902 there were sixteen ; in 1903 there will be nineteen. The increase is due to one, which was closed during 1902, being reopened at Wetaskiwin. We are running two others, one at Black Falls and one at Lacombe. These have been built and equipped by the settlers without any advance or loan from the department; but we are running these for the settlers this year.


James Clancy: Have the loans all been repaid ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not all. There is still $16,000 unpaid. There has been $36,436 repaid.


James Clancy: Is the rest likely to be repaid ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think most of it will be, I would not like to say positively that all will be. Some factories have not at all done well. The country in those particular districts has not filled up with dairymen sufficiently to hold out great hopes of final repayment; but I think that most of this money will be repaid.


James Clancy: Has there been some new arrangement made there ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, I am not aware of any change.


James Clancy: I find that generally throughout the North-west such payment's as these occur. Take the creamery of :


Tindastoll B.: & C. Association : school taxes, 1901. $7.56 ; premiums of insurance on creamery, $24 ; rent of creamery, 1899 to 1901, three years at $172.50 ; extra allowance for rent, 1900 and part of 1901, one and a half years at $50 ; less advance, $100.
What is the meaning of that ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: These items were all charged against the manufacturing account. There was a surplus in the creamery, and consequently these items were not really paid by the government at all, although the money went through the hands of the department.


James Clancy: What is meant by the rent of the factory ? Who rents the factory ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is rent paid in all the factories to the original owner. That is charged in the manufacturing account.


James Clancy: Are not the government advancing considerable sums and becoming owners of some of the factories which have failed ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We do not become owners of the factories.


James Clancy: There was a large sura expended in fitting up and rebuilding certain factories. After spending large sums of money on the factories, does the government pay rent for them ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We do not take over the factories. We rent them from the owners and advance certain sums which we spend in .improvements, so as to put them in proper running order. Any one who takes a factory and runs it has to pay rent.


James Clancy: Is the department keeping up the system of making these advances V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, we have not made any for several years. I do not think we have made any since 1000.


Richard Blain: Who has charge of the sale of butter for those creameries ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Primarily the head office here. Mr. Marker is inspector in charge of the creameries in the North-west Territories, at Calgary, under direction from here and he manages the sales.


Richard Blain: What was the output last year as compared with the year before ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In 1902 the output was 532,000 pounds and in 1901, it was 672,000 pounds.


Richard Blain: How do you explain the decrease ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am informed that it is due largely to the floods and bad roads in the spring which prevented the farmers bringing iii their milk. Also in the district of Assiniboia, the large wheat crop kept the farmers too busy to attend to the creamery.


Richard Blain: Where is the butter sold ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In British Columbia and the Yukon and a portion in China and Japan.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What do you charge the farmers for making butter ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Four cents a pound.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: That might account for the falling off. In the Ontario creameries it does not cost more than two cents per pound.


Aaron Abel Wright: We always charge three and a half.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Yes, but it does not cost more than two. I happen to be a director of one of them.


Aaron Abel Wright: I am a director also, and I know the cost is more than that.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The expenses are very much higher than in the North-west and the output is very small, so that you have to charge higher prices than if you were running on a very large scale.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: You must make a good profit because butter can be made in quite a small factory at not over two cents a pound in the east. The government is supposed only to charge the actual cost.


Aaron Abel Wright: Four cents per pound is charged in the United States and in some places three and a half cents. But three and a half to four cents is the price.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We charge four cents, and if the actual disbursements do not come up to four cents, the difference is credited to the dairy on the advance paid by the government.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Then it costs four cents ?.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In some cases it costs about two and a half. We charge four cents, and when there is a surplus we credit it.


Richard Blain: How many factories have been assisted by the government, and how many are now operated ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The creameries at Indian Head, Wolseley and Maple Creek have ceased to operate because these places are in the wheat belt and the farmers had all their time taken up with their wheat.


Richard Blain: Has the government any control over those which have repaid the money advanced ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We are still operating them, but the time is near when we will cease to do so.	.


James Clancy: The understanding on which the hon. gentleman got his first vote was that at the end of three years the experiment would cease.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, but the people have been urging us to go on, and as they owe the government we thought it best to do so. Now that some have paid off their indebtedness, it is about time we should cease to operate those factories.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: How many had paid off their indebtedness ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Ten.


James Clancy: Are there any which have given up operations entirely ? Some twenty were assisted in the first instance with skimming stations outside, which were as a sort of subsidiary stations for the collecting of cream. There were originally, I believe,

about twenty. Are there any of that number that have ceased to operate ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, those at Indian Head, Wolseley and Maple Creek.


James Clancy: How much did they owe ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Indian Head owed nothing. Wolseley owed $2,000, but they have paid something through the sale of part of the machinery. We hold the rest of the machinery.. Maple Creek owes about $1,000.


James Clancy: In both these cases, there would be a loss ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We still have some of the plant that will be available against the debt.


James Clancy: Is it the intention of the department to operate these creameries until the debt is paid off ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I would not say positively as to that. Some, as I have said, may not be able to pay off the advance.


James Clancy: Why ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Because the conditions do not seem favourable for dairying in those places. The conditions may change. A few have been successful, and in the others it is hoped that the debt will be paid off.


Mr. GILMOUR.: There was only about
570.000	pounds of butter made, and I almost think that two of the factories alone made half that quantity. Has the minister any account of the butter made in the factories ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have here a statement of the butter made in these factories for the year 1902. I will give the total in round numbers : Calgary,
19.000	pounds ; Churehbridge, 116,000 ; Edmonton, 14,000 pounds ; Glenfel, 38,000 pounds ; Innisfail, 99,000 pounds ; Moose-jaw, 16,000 pounds; Moosomin, 11,000 pounds ; Olds, 42,000 pounds ; Prince Albert,
14.000	pounds ; Regina, 25,000 pounds ; Red Deer, 55,000 pounds ; Saltcoats, 6,000 pounds ; Qu'Appelle, 20,000 ; Tindastoll,
28.000	pounds ; Whitewood, 6,000 pounds.


James Gilmour: The factory at Tindastoll is a new onev Has the government advanced anything toward that ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have not made any loans to the Tindas-toll factory. We did pay for some small items of machinery. And the money is being repaid out of the season's work.


Richard Blain: As to the operation of these factories after they have repaid the money advanced, did I understand the bon. minister to say that his department was considering the advisability of closing them up ?


James Clancy: 


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not closing them up, but ceasing to operate them-putting them into the hands of the people.


Richard Blain: Have they been successful since they repaid the debt?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We are still operating them as before. No change has been made in that respect. But I have warned them that, as they have paid off the debt, I thought it time for them to take up the work themselves. They have asked us not to insist upon that, because they find that the general management of our inspector is an advantage. No doubt, with the whole group of factories managed by one head and the marketing and shipping arranged for, the management is more economical. But, now that they have got beyond the experimental stage, it is doubtful whether we ought to continue the management of them. But, so long ns we operate any of them, it would perhaps be as well to manage all, even those that are able to stand upon their own feet.


Richard Blain: Are they run at a loss to the government ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not those that have paid oft' their loans. Any money made is paid over to them.


James Gilmour: The government operation of the factories is considered a great boon toy the people. It takes the marketing of the produce and the collecting and distribution of the money off their hands. In some cases it would be very inconvenient for them to do this for themselves. It cannot be managed for each factory so well as it can be managed for all by oue head.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Quite true.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in believing that the government charges 4 cents per pound for making butter and does not collect the cream ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, for making butter and furnishing supplies, such as tubs, salt, &c., and marketing the butter ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: With us the ordinary charge is 3 cents per pound and the highest charge is 3} cents, and they collect the cream.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The cost is very much higher in the Northwest than in Ontario. Any surplus that there is goes to the patrons.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But, if the factories were more economically run and the charge for making and supplies reduced below 4 cents, there would be more for the patron. I know of small factories in my section that have I been run for years, and the highest charge

they ever made was 3| cents and they collected the cream. I know that for a fact, for I have been sending to two of these factories for some time.


James Gilmour: As I understand it, if there is a profit the government pays it back to the patrons.


The MINISTER OE AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But if the charge of 4 cents per pound is made, there is less to be divided among the patrons than if they were charging 3i cents, which' ought to be sufficient, considering that the government does not collect the cream.


James Gilmour: If the government takes it, it gives it back to the patrons in some way, for the government does not take any profit. These factories were indebted to the government, as I understand it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But my complaint is that the charge for making butter is too high. I assume that it would cost a little more in the North-west than in Ontario, but the government must be relieved of a good deal of expense in not collecting the cream. I take it that if they did collect the cream they would charge 41 per cent.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In my part of the country the average charge is three cents a pound. In the Northwest it costs about $180 a car to ship boxes to these factories. Fuel, labour and everything of that kind is very much higher there than it is in the east.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was I correct in understanding that the shipment of fruit in cold storage was a success ?


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It has been a great success.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What kind of fruit are you shipping ?
The AlINrSTER OF AGRICULTURE. The government has not shipped anything' themselves. But private shippers, I believe, have shipped several varieties of apples, pears, and a few peaches.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood that the government did carry on an experiment for some years in shipping fruit in cold storage.


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We stopped that two year's ago.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then I presume it was a failure ?


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think it was a failure. Those shipments were entirely experimental. AVe shipped peaches and pears chiefly, and some grapes. The pears went forward as a rule successfully, and so did the grapes, as far as the carriage was concerned. Apples went forward successfully.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is supposed to be the proper temperature for sending apples forward ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The best temperature for sending fruit would be 35 to 40 degrees Fahrenheit, for the tender varieties.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have seen an account from AVashington of shipments of the harder variety of apples, which sold in London for $5 a barrel. These were shipped from Illinois. They shipped in carload lots, and realized $5 a barrel. They were sent forward at a temperature of 31. These shipments included pears, lemons and other fruit, and they went forward successfully. They think there is no difficulty at all, provided the cold storage is right. I remember looking up the experiments made by the experimental farm here, and I do not think they were very successful. When the shipments reached London they were sold at a less price than they cost here. Could the minister tell us what is the additional cost of sending butter and fruit in cold storage over the cost of sending it in the ordinary way ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Tlie difference is ten shillings a ton, that applies to all lines of goods. In regard to apples, the harder varieties that are intended to be kept after arrival in the old country, should be shipped at a temperature of 31 ; but the tender varieties which are to be put on the market immediately after coming out of cold storage, need to be shipped in'a higher temperature, as otherwise they would spoil in getting into warmer air. The shipments that were made last year by the horticulturist of the experimental farm, realized more than $5 a barrel on the London market, in competition with apples from Illinois.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What percentage of all the shipments of butter and cheese is made in cold storage or cold chambers ?


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I stated earlier in the evening that practically all the butter goes forward in cold storage, in the lowest temperature that the chambers will give. Of cheese, hardly any goes in these cold chambers, but a considerable quantity is carried in the cooled or ventilated chambers.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have you some arrangement made this year for cold storage cars on the different railways for shipping butter and cheese ?


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have cold storage cars for shipping butter and in addition to that we have a very large number of iced cars for cheese, for the first time this season. There were a few last year as an experiment, and we found it so satisfactory that we induced the railway companies to put on about one hundred im-

proved cars, iced cars, for the carriage of cheese.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What do they charge extra over the ordinary freight rates for the carriage of cheese in these cars ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They do not charge anything over the ordinary rates. They run once a week.


Mr. POPE.: Where do they run from V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They run from practically everywhere all over the country.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What does it cost the government ?,


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We pay for icing the cheese cars $5 per car, and for the butter cars we guarantee the railway companies two-thirds of the capacity of the car. If they earn more than two thirds of the capacity of the car we are credited with the surplus, and if they earn less we are charged with the difference, and the balance is made up at the end of the season.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You pay $5 per car irrespective of the length of the run ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, that is the cost of icing.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What was the total expense last year ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: $5,-430.11 for butter and $1,940.77 for cheese.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: A year ago it was claimed that a great deal of the damage .to fruit that was shipped arose from the fact that it was too hot in the cars, that the cars were not properly ventilated and that the cars were chargeable with a good deal of the damage rather than the ships. I think the hon. minister proposed to take some steps to endeavour to get a large number of cars ventilated. I would like to know what steps have been taken.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Last year we got ten ventilated cars on the Grand Trunk Railway for which we paid $620.50.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What system of ventilation ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: 1 cannot very easily describe it. I am told that there is a syphon arrangement by which by the motion of a car the air is drawn into the car.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you have any on the Canadian Pacific Railway ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They are building some this year, I believe.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It cost $02 per car to put this ventilating arrangement on V	.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, that was for ten cars for the season.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Would it be necessary for the government to pay in order to get that a'ccommodation V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We are not paying anything at all this season.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Will the railway companies not put this ventilating apparatus on their cars without charge ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I believe they are doing that this year. We made that arrangement last year to try the experiment and they found the experiment so successful that they are putting them on themselves this year.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: They propose to put on a large number of cars ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I believe so.


Mr. TAYLOR.: I hold in my hand a pamphlet which is headed :
Dominion of Canada.
Department of Agriculture.
Branch of the Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying.
Poultry Division.
Profitable Poultry Farming.
(Revised Edition).
I presume there was a former edition that did not perhaps show a profit as great as this edition does.
Bulletin No. 6.
Published by direction of the Hon. Sydney A.
Fisher. Minister of Agriculture.
It contains a lot of valuable information and a lot of splendid wood-cuts, and on page 38 there is a gentleman dressed in full dress with a chicken in his hand as it is held preparatory to killing, and on page 39 there is a chicken with a brick on its back, showing the position of the chicken in the shaper, with a brick on top to shape it. The whole thing is to induce the farmer to go into profitable poultry farming. I take up the Auditor General's Report and turn to D-76, 77 and 78, and I find how the government give an illustration of profitable poultry farming. I find that at Holmes-ville, which I presume, the hon. member for West Huron (Mr. Holmes) will know, a gentleman named Mr. F. C. Elford purchased chickens and feed, and the bill amounted $013.36. He sold them for $190.65, making a loss of $417.31. A gentleman from Bowmanville named Mr. A. W. Foley expended $225.29 on chicken farming and returned 66 cents, making a loss of $224.63. on the speculation. A gentleman at Renfrew named Mr. John Frood expended $183.70 and returned $6.88, making a loss of $176.82. There is a gentleman at Eldon, Prince Edward Island, who expended
Hon. Mr. FISHER

$267.77 and returned $88.57, making a loss of $179.20. A gentleman at Alberton, Prince Edward Island spent $225.37, returned $116.87, and made a loss of $108.50. At Andover, New Brunswick, a person spent $347.04 and returned $179.03, making a loss of $168.01. At Bondville, Quebec, Mr. Hillkouse, spent $719.87 and returned $407.71, making a loss of $312.16. I want the bon. Minister of Agriculture to explain how be can put a document like this into circulation advising the farmers to go into poultry farming for profit while making the losses the government have made. They expended $7,621.58 in this way and all they returned was $2,753.12, making a 'loss of $4,868.46.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: At how many stations ?


George Taylor: I did) not count the number of stations, but this is the total result. How can the hon. minister tell the farmers there is profit in poultry farming while showing such a loss as this ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman knows perfectly well that this is experimental work. You do not expect to make a profit on the work itself. You never can do so and you might as well expect the farm at Ottawa which deals with an immense amount of experimental work to sell enough out of its fields and out of its herds to pay for that experimental work. The same principle applies to the poultry experimental stations where the work is done for the purpose of obtaining information and not for the purpose of obtaining results at the stations themselves.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Would the minister let me ask him a question ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Would the hon. gentleman wait till I sit down ?


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I thought that perhaps the minister would never be able to get through in time to sit down. I can tell the minister that if the experimental farm outside of the experimental plots will not pay, then it is no good. What can the farmers of Canada learn from the Minister of Agriculture in reference to farming, when he tells us to-night that he cannot make his own farm pay. He has the most beautiful site there is in this country for a farm, and I venture to say that neither the minister himself nor any man on the farm has brains enough to make it pay. The minister tells us that he has men trotting around the country teaching the farmers how to raise chickens. What is the use of that when the farmers cannot get help enough to do the ordinary farm work. He issues this pamphlet with all these cuts in it at a great expense, and then he tells ns that chicken raising does not pay him, and that it is only an experiment. It is the most absurd thing I have ever heard tell of, to
think that he has men in our section of the country running around to tell the fanners how to fatten chickens.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How to suck eggs.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Well, there is a good deal of sucking going around in that department, and the minister has more suckers than chickens. Mr. Chairman, you yourself, as a doctor, will see the absurdity of sending people to farmers telling them how to raise chickens. We are paying $50 a month to these men to do that, and then the Minister of Agriculture turns around and tells us that he cannot himself make this chicken fattening a paying business. It is better that he would drop the chicken fattening and bring his great ability to bear on running the experimental farm properly. I would like to ask you, Mr. Chairman, how long you could live on a farm that you could not make pay ? It is worse than absurd to take the money of the hard working farmers of the country and spend it on an experimental farm which the minister says he cannot make pay. What is the use of it as an example to the farmers of Canada if it is a concern that cannot pay its own way ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I admit that I cannot make the experimental farm pay, and I never knew it to pay since its inception, and 1 do not expect it ever will pay.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: You had better wind it up.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: But it does pay, and the farmers of this country acknowledge it pays, in the information they get from these experiments and from the reports and bulletins that are sent out. I can say that since that bulletin has been out we have had hundreds and thousands of applications for it from farmers who want to know how to carry on the business, and I am having more applications for experimental stations every day.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: From some Grit heelers.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, but frequently from Conservative voters who appreciate the benefits that are being conferred upon them in this respect by a Liberal government. These are progressive farmers and are not like my hon. friend fMr. Cochrane) who thinks he can learn nothing-not from the Minister of Agriculture, who does not pretend to teach him- but from the officials in the Department of Agriculture, who are the best experimenters and the best experts in this country, and I may say on this continent, and who are working to-day for the benefit of the farmers of Canada and doing work that the farmers of Canada appreciate.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: The minister says that he has received thousands of applica-

tions for his pamphlet, but the reason is that he has deceived the public by it, and they will soon wake up to the fact that they have been deceived by the Minister of Agriculture, who pretends to know more than lie does. The Minister of Agriculture says that I can learn nothing from him. I would be very sorry if I could learn anything from the minister about farming, and I can tell him that the farmers of this country can learn nothing from his farming. I am willing to pay any reasonable amount for experiments in these experimental plots, and I believe they are very useful, but I also believe I should not be asked to pay my hard earned money to keep up a farm that the minister admits he cannot make pay. I can tell the minister that there are hundreds and thousands of farmers in this country who have better and more artistic buildings on their farms than he has got on his experimental farm. The experiments made by these scientific men are of value, and the people are willing to pay a liberal sum for the benefits we derive from them, but otherwise the thing is of very little value. We know as much about cheese making and butter making as any gentleman there, unless it is Professor Robertson. We know that the minister spent .$40,000 in experimenting in curing cheese in cold storage, when he could have made his experiments for a couple of thousand dollars in any well equipped cheese factory. I repeat what I said, that the minister is deceiving the public because he led the farmers to believe that he could make chicken farming pay, when the Auditor General's Report shows that his experiment was worse than a failure.


George Taylor: I am not surprised at the statement made by the minister that he has had a great many applications for these stations. I suppose every government supporter throughout the country would like to have a station on his farm. There is one of those stations at' a place called Holmes-ville, which, I presume, is in the constituency of the hon. gentleman from West Huron (Mr. Holmes) and there a gentleman got an expenditure of $613.36 and he returned $196, showing a deficit of over $400. Another at Bowmanville expended $225.29 and returned 66 cents. If the hon. minister's statement is correct, that these are experimental stations, how does it come that this gentleman purchased a lot of eggs and supplies, and only got 06 cents out of the lot ? Would not every voter in the country want one of these stations at his door when he sees the results that follow. The gentleman at Bowmanville was paid $150 for his services, from the 24th April to the 24th July-$50 a) month. Every farmer would like to get that for feeding a few chickens. He bought 1.722 eggs, at $20.78. He must have sucked them all, because he only returned 66 cents out of the lot. iSo I am not surprised at the statement of the minister that he has appli-Mr. COCHRANE.
cation after application for these stations. I have only read a few items, but there are dozens of others all over the country. I am sure that several of these stations could be planted in the constituency of Leeds, among the hon. gentleman's friends there. They would like to have them, and have the care of the chickens. Is the minister satisfied with these results of his experimenting ?


Mr. HOLMES.: I am sorry I did not happen to be in the House when the matter of the Holmesville chicken station was first referred to, because I would like to have heard all that was said in relation to it. But I can say that although it shows a deficiency on the expenditure, the people in the neighbourhood, irrespective of their political proclivities,. are glad to have the station, and admit that it has been a success. I can say further that the egg-suckers referred to by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor) are not confined to the Liberal party ; for I had an application this week from a Conservative in Goderich who realized the success of the Holmesville station and wanted one established at Goderich also. I am sorry that the minister was not able to grant the request, because I am satisfied that the people of West Huron, altogether regardless of political predilections, regard the station at Holmesville as a success and as doing a good work.


Rufus Henry Pope: Are these chickens! fed with the feeding machine ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Sometimes thejf are, and sometimes they are not.


Rufus Henry Pope: Why are they not all fed alike ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They are not using the machine much now.


Rufus Henry Pope: It was only a year or two ago that we were advised by the Minister of Agriculture that the squirt was the only proper thing with which to feed chickens. Surely, after having made the careful investigation which the hon. minister must have made before recommending this priming machine, which was adopted at his suggestion or at the suggestion of his department, he must have known whether that machine was a success or not.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It was an experiment.


Rufus Henry Pope: It had been experimented with in very many parts of the world. It was not the invention of the hon. gentleman -this squirt which he used to pump food into the chickens. Why, as I look at the picture of this well-dressed gentleman in this pamphlet, I could almost fancy that it represented the first experiment ofj the Minister of Agriculture himself on that chicken.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: A good likness.


Rufus Henry Pope: Don't take the right hand ; if you do, the job will not be properly done.
With the left hand hold the chicken's legs and wings in one firm grasp.
If you are left-handed, you cannot do the business. No left-handed man need apply-
Place the first finger of the right hand-
Mind, not the second finger. If you have lost the first finger, you are not in it.
Place the first finger of the right hand on the right side of the neck, and the remaining fingers on the left side. Grasp the head in the hollow of the hand, with the fork of the fingers behind the head where it joins the neck. The back of the chicken being upwards, hold the legs against the left hip.
If you should put them against the right - hip, the whole thing is ' bust ; ' the killing of this chicken would be a failure ; the meat would not be worth sending to market; it would be completely spoiled.
Hold the legs against the left hip and the head near the thigh or knee.
It does not give you a choice. Mr. Chairman, this is interesting to you as a physician, to know the proper way to kill a chicken.
Bend the head backward as far as possible, and at the same time stretch the neck, and when it is dislocated, immediately pull the head.
If you don't the chicken will wake up ; you must not give it a second. It says immediately ; the instructions are specific ; the word should be underlined.
Immediately pull the head to you one and a-half inches from the neck.
If you pull it more than 14 inches, the whole job is incomplete.
Hold the wings firmly

This is an important matter, that you must hold the wings of chickens at all times with a firm grasp.
Hold the wings firmly after killing

Even after the chicken is dead, you must not let go ; it is dangerous to let go of the wings

-and allow the chicken's head to hang down so that the blood can collect in the neck. The head is attached to the body simply by the skin of the neck.
That is, you stretch it 14 inches, hang on to the wings after the chicken is dead, and
let its head drop down. What a cruel act, Mi*. Chairman, towards this beautiful bird who but a few moments before was crowing around the barnyard, so proud of himself that you might almost think he was the Minister of Agriculture. There he is, with his head hanging down after you have twisted it off. I think, Mr. Chairman, that there are farmers in this country who might possibly be able to wring a chicken's neck without these elaborate instructions contained in this pamphlet which is issued by the Department of Agriculture.


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: Well, Mr. Chairman, we will issue a new edition of the pamphlet with the annotations of the hon. gentleman. It might be more acceptable to his friends.


Rufus Henry Pope: It is very kind of the Minister of Agriculture, who I know is very kindly disposed towards me. If you issue a new addition, just) say wring the chicken's neck in the old-fashioned way, and let it go at that. The farmers will catch on, for it is very simple.


James Clancy: On what principles are these experiments carried on which result in a loss ? The first thing to convince the farmers would be that the work could be carried on privately afterwards without loss.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Whenever experiments have been carried on, there are expenditures which have nothing whatever to do with the profit or loss in the raising or fattening of chickens. Records have to be kept and a certain amount of experiments are bound to result in failure, but our failures serve as a lesson to others. Last year we tried the experiment of raising a certain number of chickens ourselves and feeding them in competition with chickens we bought. We have also been trying incubators for eggs raised from our own hens and eggs that are bought. That kind of work costs more and shows more failure than ordinary work done on purely commercial lines.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman dees not throw much light on the subject. The committee must be surprised at the hon. minister stating that mey tried bad methods in order to find out good ones. In other words they sow failures in order that they may reap success and spend a lot of money in that way. If the hon. gentleman has men capable of carrying on experiments, it seems to me that the best methods should be thought and none others. There is not a farmer who does not know how to raise chickens, and it is a very poor compliment to their intelligence to have men going about teaching them that work. Farmers have incubators just as well as the Experimental Farm. How many experiment stations have paid expenses, and how many are in operation ?


Tlie MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: None of them have paid expenses. There were twelve stations last year in operation.


James Clancy: Who are the men employed in carrying on these experiments at these different stations ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is one at Calgary under charge of Mr. Barker. One at Renfrew, Ontario, under the charge of Mr. John Broone, and there are several others.


James Clancy: Where did those gentlemen receive instructions as experts to equip them for the work ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They are farmers who have been engaged in poultry raising, and they get their instructions from the department.


James Clancy: They come down here to undergo a training.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No.


Richard Blain: Does the hon. minister intend establishing any more of these experimental stations ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There are some passing out of our control, and perhaps some others will he established in place of the old ones. There is a demand from almost every quarter for this work to he carried on.


George William Fowler: I should think they would want it carried on in Renfrew.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is not a question of the expenditure of the money and the making of a direct profit, but it is the advantage to the farmers of seeing the work done and learning the results of the experiments.


George William Fowler: But the results they find out from the station at Renfrew would tend to prevent the farmers from going into the business. These requests must come from Grit heelers who want jobs.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, hut from farmers of the district.


Richard Blain: I believe the committee would he satisfied to have a certain amount of money expended in teaching the farmers how to fatten chickens. But I am strongly of opinion that all that work ought to be done at the Experimental Farm at Ottawa. What advantage, for instance, do the farmers of West Huron get from the expenditure of $400 or $500 on this experimental station more than they would get from work properly done on the experimental farm here? It would be better to expend the money in equipping the experimental farm here and sending out bulletins to farmers around the country prepared by the experts in charge of this main station. If it is necessary to extend further in the province of Ontario,


James Clancy: the hon. minister must remember that at Guelph there is an Ontario Experimental Farm, which naturally becomes a centre of information for the farmers of West Huron and many other constituencies. Whut advantage is it to teach the farmers of West Huron by experiments how to kill a chicken ? There is only one way to do it, and no doubt the bulletin set it forth. The minister is reaching out too much, and that is one reason why the experimental farm here is not better equipped. It would be better to equip this farm properly, and from here send out bulletins.


George William Fowler: In my town there are several persons who are engaged in the poultry business. But when the government came to select a person for the work in this experimental station, instead of selecting one of the men who understood the business, they selected a man, a very worthy gentleman in his own line, who was engaged in the sale of agricultural implements. He had not an acre of land, was not a farmer in any sense, and did not even keep a hen or chicken about his premises, until he was appointed to this work. But he had this qualification, that he was very active in working for the Liberal party. I agree with the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) that expenditure of this sort is quite absurd. The minister, in the course of his occupation of this department, has done some very absurd things, but of all the things he has been guilty of, this chicken fattening business is to my mind, the most absurd. I am sorry he does not carry out what he intimated to the committee last session, when this subject was up for discussion, when he intimated that he was about through with his experiments along this line. It is impossible for people generally in a large agricultural community to go and see how the chicken fattening business is done. You must instruct by means of bulletins, and these can be issued from the Experimental Farm at Ottawa. When you take this Renfrew case, it is most glaring. The expenditure is $180. It is a small sum, but, on the other hand, you fin'd that the receipts amounted to only $6.86. Did the chickens die off ? Or were they sent in the defective cold storage that the hon. minister has given us, and perish on the way ? It does seem to me that, after the lamentable exhibition he has given us tonight, he can no longer pose as the capable head of this department. When we find that this cold storage of which he boasted so long is so thoroughly inefficient, when we find, that the fruit growers of Niagara district can no longer take advantage of it because their fruit is practically destroyed, and when we find these chicken experiments resulting so deplorably, surely these things should constrain the hon. gentleman to plead guilty to the charge that he is thoroughly incompetent and unfit for his position, and should make way for some better man.


Edward Frederick Clarke: When this pamphlet was published, I took advantage of the opportunity to write to the officials of the hon. gentleman's department and get a number of copies, which I had the pleasure of sending out to people engaged in chicken raising. I had not then seen this account in the Auditor General's Report. If the gentlemen to whom I sent the pamphlets learn of the financial results of these experiments, it is hardly likely they will follow the advice given. I would like to ask the hon. minister what was the object of establishing this experimental station at Bowmanville ? I see that the expenditure was $225.29 ; and there was a return of just 60 cents. The main item of expenditure was $150 salary to the person operating this branch. On eggs and other things $75.25 was spent. The number of eggs purchased was 1431 dozen. There was also bought 75 gallons of coal oil, two gross of screw nails and other supplies. Is it the intention to carry on that station at Bowmanville ? Was the object in establishing it to incubate the eggs artificially ? In any case it seems to have been a lamentable failure, when wo get back only 66 cents after an expenditure of $225.29. I notice that at the Holmesville station, to which my hon. friend from Huron referred, there was one purchase of ten yards of flannel. Was that to prevent the chickens from getting the croup ?


Robert Holmes: It shows that they were pretty honest in putting everything into the account.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I agree with the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) that the country is ready to spend any reasonable sum in well considered experiments. What is to be done with this Bowmanville station ? I am sure the results have not been very satisfactory to the minister. Does he intend to keep that station going on ? It has cost this country $225.29 less 06 cents to produce an experiment upon 142J dozens of eggs. Has there been any practical benefit to the farming community of Bowmanville or of the county of Durham from this experiment 1


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not got the details of the results of the work there. But I would point out to the hon. gentleman what I said earlier in the evening, that I do not expect for a moment that these illustrations at the experimental stations are going to have any profitable results as far as revenue is concerned. But they are beneficial to the country at large, just as other experimental and illustration work in the various parts of the country, in so far as they supply information which is distributed to the farmers throughout the country. In this particular case, if I find that the, station has not been productive of anything of value to the country, I should not continue it. The country at large is asking for illustration work of this kind. Not a week passes that I do not receive requests 240
from different parts of the country to establish experimental farm stations. Complaints are constantly coming in that the farmers cannot afford to come to the experimental farm at Ottawa, or to those in- other parts of the country, they are asking for something more within their reach. That request has been so constant that wherever it has seemed feasible, I have been glad to try and distribute this kind of work over the country as much as possible. That is the itoiicy I have adopted in these illustration stations and some other branches. So far as I have seen, that has been on the whole acceptable to the farmers, and I believe it is a useful concession to the demands which have been made in the interest of agriculture. The poultry stations are doing work that is partly experimental and partly illustrative. The expenditure and the sales from them have no relation at all to the nature of tlie work. The balance between sales and expenditure at a station is no criterion at all of the value of the work that is done at that station.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But what is the particular kind of information which the hon. gentleman wishes to furnish to the farmers by these stations ? The principal item in the outlay at this station at Bowmanville is for three months' salary, $150,. for the gentleman who had the good fortune to be selected to conduct these experiments. Has he issued any memorandum showing the results obtained by this station ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That was one of several stations in which the work of fattening chickens was illustrated for that section of the country. The same work is illustrated in other stations which I have read over.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Here it is about eggs.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That shows the hon. gentleman that what he finds in the Auditor General's Report does not show the work that is being done there.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then what is the use of publishing it ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: What he finds in the Auditor General's Report is merely a statement of the disbursements and receipts, but as I have explained, these are no criterion at all of the' value of the work done.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has this gentleman made a report of the result of his operations at Bowmanville ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Certainly.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the minister say what better knowledge we have of the raising, feeding and fattening of chickens as a result of the establishment of that station at Bowmanville ?



The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have pointed out that this kind of work has been conducted in a dozen different stations all over the country for the purpose of illustrating what can be done. One of these stations was in the far west of Ontario, another is at Renfrew, and other is in central Ontario, at Bowmanville.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The information which the farmers of Ontario will obtain from the Bowmanville station ought to be accompanied by some further information, because those of them who only see or hear of the Auditor General's Report, will only know that this station cost $225.29 and yielded receipts of 66 cents. Will they be edified by getting that information ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think they will appreciate what has been done.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Would it not be better for the minister to give further particulars as to the results which he has attained in this station at Bowmanville ? We all appreciate the efforts which are made to give our farmers increased knowledge as to the profitable raising of poultry, but the way these accounts are presented will not leave a favourable impression upon the mind of the ordinary reader. If the hon. gentleman is going to issue any more pamphlets, let him give us some memoranda that will show to the people any benefit there may be from the expenditure of this money at Bowmanville.


George William Fowler: So far as we can see, the result of this experiment at Bowmanville will be to deter the farmer from going into the chicken business. But we have a similar result at Renfrew, where the receipts are very much larger., it is true, but still there is a great disparity between the receipts and tlie expenditure. I know the experiments at the Sussex station, which the minister has partly discontinued, were very disastrous. I think the receipts were only about 25 per cent of the expenditure. The only way in which the hon. minister could possibly get any advantage is by issuing bulletins from these different stations, because all the information that the country has is what is contained in the Auditor General's Report. As the hon.. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) has pointed out, I do not know how the farmers are going to read between the lines or how they will regard it as a very valuable work unless it be from the standpoint that it is a good business to keep clear of ns far as the farmer is concerned. Unless the hon. minister has bulletins issued to the farmers or has farmers' excursions arranged to bring them in, and let them see how the chicken is properly fattened and the egg properly hatched, I do not see where any beneficial .. results can possibly be attained, and I throw out that suggestion to the hon. minister in Mr. OLARKE.
order that he may try and improve matters in the future if he proposes to continue his chicken fattening experiments.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman made tlie statement a few moments ago in order to try and lead the House and the country to believe that lie was doing what was fair for the province of Ontario. He said he bad established one station at Holmesville in western Ontario, one at Renfrew in eastern Ontario, and one at Bowmanville in central Ontario. If he will look at the Auditor General's Report he will find that on the next farm, at Whitby, he has established another. Whitby is in South Ontario and Bowmanville is in West Durham, two adjoining Grit constituencies, and the gentlemen running these stations are known to be tlie worst Grit heelers in that section of the country. Mr. Foley, at Bowmanville, every one knows, is one of the faithful, while Mr. Brant, who lives a few miles out of Whitby, everybody knows, is one of the leading politicians in that section of tlie country and knows nothing more about fattening chickens than the hon. minister himself does. He got $038.41 and returned $260.63, making a loss of about $400. He drew out of that for services from April 1 to December 24, 1901, $382, and tlie balance went for supplies ; 3,800 pounds oat chop, 12 bushels corn, skim milk, 9,210 pounds, &e., and there is a deficiency of $400 in this case. Central Ontario had to have two stations adjoining each other. The hon. minister tried to lead the House and the country to believe there was only one.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Was that not in the year before ?


Mr TAYLOR.: This is all in the last Auditor General's Report.


Robert Holmes: Just for the benefit of the hon. member for King's, N.B. (Mr. Fowler), who suggests the holding of farmers' excursions, of course, jocularly, 1 may say that hundreds of people from all over that section of the country have visited the poultry station at Holmesville. I hope lion, gentlemen opposite do not think that Holmesville has any special connection with myself because it happens to have my name. I am sorry to say that nearly all of the residents there vote against me. At the same time I venture to make the statement that if the hon. Minister of Agriculture could see his way clear to establishing a poultry station in every county in Ontario tlie people of Ontario would endorse his action in doing so. The people of the locality who have had an opportunity of seeing the work that is being done at the station are perfectly satisfied with what has been done during the first year of its existence, because it has only been in existence one year, even though the work is being done at a loss. Of course, as tlie bon. minister very properly suggests, you cannot expect that experiments of that

kind will show their results in dollars and cents. Whether these stations are expected to become self-sustaining or uot I do not know, but I venture to make the assertion that I believe the people are perfectly well satisfied with the work that is being done there, and they realize that it has enhanced the value of poultry in that section to a very considerable degree.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I think ,we might turn our attention now to some other subject.


Some hon. MEMBERS: No, no.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I would like to say a few words on the subject first.


David Henderson: As an interlude and to allow our friends to have a breathing spell in dealing with poultry, I desire to introduce another subject. I am interested, I may say, in poultry 'raising. I have for years taken a great deal of interest in it and t think that a great deal can be accomplished by supplying the farmers with eggs of the most approved breeds of poultry. I am sure there is as much accomplished in that way as in any other part of the business undertaken at the experimental farm or by the government. The subject that I desire to introduce at present is a matter that came before the Agricultural Committee in the month of April last, pud which I am not sure whether it has been dealt with by the hon. minister or not. I refer to a pamphlet that was written illustrating a portion of tlie fruit districts in western Ontario. A copy of this pamphlet was, shown to members of the Agricultural Committee and the suggestion was made that the author should write another boob of about the same size along the same lines but dealing with nil the provinces of the Dominion ns well as the province of Ontario, which was dealt with in this book. That suggestion met -with the approval of the Agricultural Committee. It was thought to be a good thing to have some illustrated book that could be sent to the old country to show the people there tlie character of the fruit farms of Canada, with a view of directing the attention of the people there to the matter and inducing them to invest money in that business. It is unnecessary for me to attempt to enlarge upon the value of the fruit industry of this country. We have heard a great deal about it. We all know something of it. The other day the right hon. Prime Minister was somewhat at a loss to find where the garden of Canada was. Well, if he will come to the county of Halton I will show him a portion of it and perhaps one of the finest portions as far as fruit-growing is concerned. I would like to see this illustrated book that the Agricultural Committee examined given a circulation in the old country because I believe it would be a very useful kind of literature and something that the hon. Minister of Agriculture would find 240J
profitable and useful in soliciting a certain class of people to come to this country. The report of the Agricultural Committee was presented on the 5tli of May last, and as the minister was then out of the country it is possible that his attention may not have been called to it. I read the report from the Votes and Proceedings, page 277 :
Mr. Douglas, from the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization, presented the third report of the said committee, which is as follows :-
The committee submit, for the information of the House, the following report of a subcommittee, and said report adopted by the committee on the 1st April, 1903.
The sub-committee of the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization, appointed to examine into and report upon the advisability of procuring a second and extended edition of the pamphlet written by Miss Martha Craig, illustrating the fruit industry of a portion of Western Ontario, beg leave to report as follows
We are of opinion that a booklet prepared on the plan indicated by the sample above named is admirably calculated to attract the attention of people in the old land interested in fruitgrowing.
Miss Craig's proposal to us is to issue a second edition of the said work, eliminating from the sample shown to the sub-committee all that does not relate exclusively to fruit-culture and the results accruing therefrom, and to extend the scope of the work to all provinces of the Dominion.
Subject to these conditions, the sub-committee advise that your committee recommend to the honourable the Minister of the Interior and the honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that departmental stipport be granted to the extent of the acceptance of a sufficient number of copies of the said enlarged booklet as will warrant the authoress to proceed with the work to completion and publication at ones.
This report received the endorsation and commendation of the Committee on Agriculture, but for some reason or other the chairman did not move its adoption. I hope that the minister, if he has not already done so, will give his attention to it and will carry out the views expressed/ by the committee.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not had the matter brought formally to my attention although several members of the Agricultural Committee have spoken to me with regard to it. The report was not adopted by the House.


Samuel Hughes: It was never presented.


David Henderson: The report was presented but for some reason or other tlie chairman refused to move its adoption and in this way he thwarted the intention of the Agricultural Committee. I am satisfied that had the report been moved it would have received the unanimous approval of the House.


The MINSTER OF AGRICULTURE.: My impression is that a report of that kind recommending the expenditure of public

money would not be in order, and probably that is why the chairman did not move its adoption. My attention is being constantly drawn to various publications by private individuals and I have been averse to purchasing publications of that kind. Without in any way going into the merits of this publication," I think it is better for the Department of Agriculture to issue the publications of its own officers rather than to buy from private individuals publications for which they wish to get patronage. Those publications are frequently pressed upon us in all sorts of ways, and if we once began to purchase them it will be very difficult to refuse some and to accept others. I have not dealt with this particular matter, but on general principles my first disposition would be against the Department of Agriculture purchasing such a book.


David Henderson: I am rather surprised at the strong position the minister takes upon this matter. Tlie Committee on Agriculture having recommended to the minister this small appropriation, surely he would consider it his duty to listen to the voice of that-committee. What is the committee for if it is not to examine into matters of this kind, and to give the result of their investigation ? The minister has not examined this book, but the Committee on Agriculture has examined it and approved of it, believing it was an excellent work for the purpose for which it is intended. Surely the minister will accept the recommendation of such a large committee {is that ? As to the excuse that the chairman could not move the report because it involved the expenditure of public money, we know that the chairman of the Agricultural Committee day after day moved reports recommending the printing of certain bulletins which involves expenditure. If it is wrong in one case it is wrong in the other. To my mind the minister takes a very strong position indeed when he tells the Committee on. Agriculture that he is not going to accept any advice from them, and that he prefers to act on his own judgment and utilize the works that are prepared by the officials of his department. He may have in his deparment officials just as competent to write a work of this kind, but I do not think that any of them has succeeded in doing so. The book is got up in an attractive form calculated to attract the attention of people in the old land, and it was the opinion of the committee that it would be an excellent work for that purpose. I hope that the minister on reflection will not so lightly treat the recommendation of such a large committee, who after a full examination of the work sent this report to the House.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 
Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Does the government continue to guarantee to pay 5 per cent on the cold storage plant established in the city of Quebec, and has the government been obliged to pay it ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That has all been settled three or four years ago, and I think nothing has been paid since.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: What space Is reserved for the merchants of Montreal in the ships with cool air ? I think I have seen in some of the agreements that a certain amount of space is reserved.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There was some agreement of that kind in connection with the old cold storage system. It was not that a certain amount of space should be available for the shippers of Montreal, but that a certain amount should be reserved for shippers from the west as against the Montreal shippers for a certain time before the ship sailed. That is not, in this agreement with reference to the cooled air chamber.


James Gilmour: What use has been made of the cool chamber last year and this year ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This year we have had to refuse cheese all the time. We have not been able to accommodate all that was offered. The results last year were so satisfactory that the factory men have been crowding their cheese in.


James Gilmour: How long has the cheese been continued in that curing room ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Two or three weeks, and sometimes four weeks. The absolute limit as advertised is eight weeks, but the cheese has never been kept nearly so long as that.


James Clancy: Are the government bearing, any share of the cost of the cold storage concern at Charlottetown now ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is no payment this year.


James Clancy: Has the government ceased to have any connection with that ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think so.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Minister of Finance, House adjourned at 12.35 a.m., Thursday.

Thursday, July 30, 1903.