1903-07-31

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 233) respecting the manufacture of binder twine in Canada.-The Minister of Finance.	.

[Stage Direction]
Ocean and mail service between Great Britain and Canada, $150,000.
['We will do it in future.\nBill reported, read the third time, and passed.']
Mr. BLAIN.: At the last meeting the Minister of Trade and Commerce gave us the quantity of mail matter that went by tlie Canadian route. Would he be good enough to give us the quantity that goes by the New York route ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright).: Probably about six or seven times as much. That would rather come under the Postmaster General's department.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Sir William Mulock).: I could not carry those figures in my memory. Some time ago tlie question was asked from the other side by, I think, the senior member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke), and I gave the figures of the quantity of mail that went via New York and via Halifax.


Richard Blain: Is the quantity of mail matter going by the Canadian route increasing or decreasing ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think it is about stationary, that is to say, relatively.


Mr. TAYLOR.: I think the minister was to bring down a statement showing the amounts we paid to the American boats and to the Canadian boats.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: What we pay to the Canadian boats does not come in my department. What is paid to the American boats, I understand, is so much per pound. It is fixed by the Postal Convention.


George Taylor: Some one ought to know how much we pay per year for carrying the mails via New York.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If my hon. friend wants that information, I will ask the Postmaster General to make a note of it and bring it down. For what year does the hon. gentleman want the information ?


George Taylor: For this year or any year.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The weight of letters despatched via New York was 92,530 pounds. The weight of other matter was 663,000 pounds. About one-seventh part goes by the Canadian route and about seven times as much goes by way of New York.


Richard Blain: Has the mail matter going by way of New York increased or decreased in volume ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Speaking from recollection, I think they maintain about the same ratio from time to time.


George Taylor: The right hon. gentleman has not got the cost ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, that is wholly a matter concerning the Post Office Department.


Richard Blain: I think the right hon. minister should give the committee a statement of the different negotiations that were entered into by this government in respect to the fast Atlantic steamship service.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have already stated what was done.


Richard Blain: The right hon. gentleman has stated what was done with the last contract. I am asking the right hon. gentleman to give the committee a statement of the different negotiations, correspondence, &c., that were engaged in by this government since they came into office in 1890 up to the present time-just briefly ; I do not ask for a detailed statement. I would
like the right hpn. minister to give us a statement as to the amount of money that has been expended for negotiating the differ-, ent services that have not matured since they came into office.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I may answer the last question first by saying that I do not think any amount of money has been expended in negotiating for the fast service. The only amount of money that has been brought into question in regard to the matter has been the $50,000 which was deposited by Messrs. Petersen, Tate & Company and afterwards returned, or to be returned by vote of this House. As to the progress of these negotiations it has been briefly this : A couple of propositions were made in 1896 to the late government, but neither of them came within the form of a regular tender. After that Mr. Petersen, as the committee is aware, proposed to give the service required for $750,000, $500,000 to be paid by us and $250,000 by the imperial government. The negotiations were spread over a period of three years, and as hon. gentlemen are aware the Boer war took place and the cost of the construction of shipping went up to such a figure as to render it practically impossible to make any bargain at all. Since that there have been no negotiations except those witli which the House is acquainted and which are contained in the papers that were laid on the Table the other day, and having reference to the two tenders submitted by the Messrs. Allan and by another company.
Steam service between Halifax, St. John's, Newfoundland and Liverpool, from July 1, 1903 to June 30. 1904, $20,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is the usual vote which we have been giving for several years for this service. The vessels sail once every 17 days. The present contract is with Furness, Withy & Company.
Steam service between St. John and Glasgow during winter of 1903-4, $7,500.


Mr. CLARKE.: What is that for ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is for ten round trips during the winter between St. John and Glasgow. This is performed by the Messrs. Donaldson, of Gla'sgow, represented by the Robert Reford Company, of Montreal. We pay them only $750 a trip and they give a fortnightly service. Representations have been made from the merchants and the people using this service to the effect that this is a growing trade and they are very anxious to obtain a weekly service in place of a fortnightly service during the winter. Probably we will have to submit a further sum in the supplementary estimates for doubling the service, but I am at present only asking the regular vote which has been

given every year, amounting to $7,500 for ten round trips.
Steam service between St. John, Dublin and Belfast during the winter of 1903-4, $7,500.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is a similar service to the last, and is performed by what is known as the Head line. Of course, they are only paid per trip. If they fail in making the number of trips the price is proportionately reduced.


George Taylor: They always earn their money, do they not ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, they do not. One year they failed in giving a complete service and the sum was reduced. They are paid simply for the work actually done. The object, of course, is to put ourselves in communication with the important centres of population in England and Ireland.


Mr. SPROULE.: Has this any relation to the amount of trade they do ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.


Mr. WILSON.: Why is it necessary to have two or three different companies doing practically the same work ? Why cannot the line that calls at Glasgow, call at Dublin as well ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: 
Uriah Wilson: But it is reasonable to suppose that we could get the service performed by one company for less than we now pay to have it performed by two or three.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am afraid not.


Uriah Wilson: It looks to me as if that would be a reasonable thing.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If it were a large subsidy there might be a good deal of force in the hon. gentleman's remark, but, where the sum granted is so small, I do not think we could hope to increase the service without increasing the vote proportionately, and it would certainly lengthen the voyage very considerably.


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: 


Uriah Wilson: It might, but then you would have double the subsidy to give one company.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I do not think it would suit the merchants as well. These vessels, not being- vessels of any great size, cannot maintain a very rapid rate of speed. If you were to add to the length of the present voyage, say a couple of days for Belfast and a couple of days for Dublin each way, it is quite clear they could not perform the number of trips they are now giving, or take anything like the length of time they assert to be necessary in calling at St. John.


Uriah Wilson: How long do they spend in these ports now ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I understand that as a rule they have to spend in St. John and at the point they reach on the other end, between three and four days. Of course, it would depend a great deal on the amount of cargo they might happen to have. I won't say it has been the case all the time, but I think of late most of those vessels have had pretty full cargoes. Of course, if we were to employ larger and swifter vessels something of the kind may be done, but that would mean very considerable expenditure.


Uriah Wilson: If there are large cargoes why need you give them subsidies ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I admit that that applies to all these concerns. The truth is that we have been trying to create a trade from these winter ports and the plan we have adopted has been to engage them to go to various ports on the other side of the Atlantic where there were considerable populations likely to consume our products. I think that this money is probably as well spent as any of these subsidy moneys usually are, and wTe have certainly increased our export trade from St. John during the winter very considerably within the last three or four years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do each of these vessels carry the mail ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They nominally carry the mail, but you are quite right that you cannot call these mail subsidies in any sense of the term. They are freight subsidies in reality. They are called here ' mail subsidies and steamship subventions,' but I do not pretend that these are of any value at all for mail purposes ; they could not be.


Uriah Wilson: Do you expect them to continue ?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. That is for the House to say.

Mr, WILSON. What is your opinion ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: My opinion is that we must be governed by the state of trade and the sac-cess in developing our winter port service. That service is very properly regarded by both sides of the House as a matter of very considerable national importance, and all these subsidies are for the purpose of aiding and sustaining it. The hon. gentleman knows very well that ports like Glasgow, Dublin and Belfast are not merely considerable cities, but they are centres of a very large population, and everything that contributes to bring Canadian products into active consumption there is worth a considerable deal to the people of Canada. That is the chief reason which induced us to do this, and the chief reason which, I suppose, will induce the House to continue it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the amount of trade rapidly increasing at St. John ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It has increased very considerably. Of course it will greatly depend on the amount of grain that comes forward. Last year they did not send as much as the year before, but that was very largely due to the shortage of the American corn crop which affected all the various lines of transport very materially. As a rule it has been a very rapid iucrease during the last four years at any rate.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has the minister any figures that would give an approximate estimate of the quantity of grain handled at St. John ?
The MINISTER OF TRADE/ AND COMMERCE. I can obtain that for my hon. friend if he wishes-does he mean by these particular lines or In a general way ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I mean from all lines that sail from that port.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Perhaps my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) would know that.


Hon. Mr. BLAIR.: I cannot say what the exact amount of the trade is. I have the figures at home, but I am sorry I have not them here at this moment. The1 statement made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce is correct that last year it fell off, but the year before it was the largest we have had, and the year before that was larger than the preceding year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Of course that information is of no use whatever because it does not indicate whether there was 1.000,000 bushels or 50,0000,00. It is desirable that we should know what advantage is taken of these winter ports especially in the case of grain, for that must have an important bearing on the future as to whether this grain can profitably be shipped by rail to St. John during the winter season.


Uriah Wilson: We should also know what proportion went over the Intercolonial Railway and what proportion went over the Canadian Pacific Railway to St. John.
I have been told by people who ought to know that the Canadian Pacific Railway has not been able to carry grain to the seaboard except at a loss and that then it was used for ballasting ships that they had to furnish cargo for. .The government ought to be able to tell us whether that is true or not.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The hon. gentleman is correct thus far ; that the Canadian Pacific Railway has probably carried the grain without profit, but I do not think it has carried it at a downright loss.


Uriah Wilson: I have my information from pretty good authority.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They are not very fond of that St. John line and their views may be a little pessimistic. I do not think they carried it at a loss, but they certainly did not make a profit on it.


Uriah Wilson: The reason they carried it was to furnish cargoes for the ships.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They have to run cars to St. John and I suppose they want ballast for their cars as well as for their ships.


Uriah Wilson: There may have been some profit in the shipping part of it, but the information I have is that they made a loss on the railway haul.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think it is perfectly true they made no profit.
Mr. "WILSON. Can we get the quantities carried by each of these railways ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have a record of the quantity going forward in the various steamship lines, but I would have to get the other information from the Intercolonial Railway, and also from the Canadian Pacific Railway, which, of course, is not under our control.


Uriah Wilson: Will you get the figures for us ?
The: MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE. Certainly, if you want them. There will be an opportunity on the supplementary estimates.
A line or lines of steamers to run during the summer months between St. John, Halifax and London, and during the winter months between St. John and London direct and Halifax and London direct, $40,000.


Mr. WADE.: With regard to this item. I may say that in the past the contract has been given to the Furness-Withy Company, and there have been very serious complaints as to the manner in which

7735
they have performed said contract. During the year 1901, complaints were very loud amongst the apple shippers in the province of Nova Scotia. The contract for the year 1901 was made much more stringent, and it stipulated that the company should run certain steamers of a very high class, but unfortunately during the year they took off two or three of their best ships, and in their place put on others of a much inferior character and a much lower rate of speed, with the consequence of a direct loss to the shippers of many thousands of dollars. These claims are now standing against the company. There have been negotiations, I understand, between the shippers and the company, and there have been constant promises by the company to adjust and pay these eiaims, but nothing has been concluded. The contract drawn last year was much more stringent in its terms, and the shippers felt confident that they would receive every satisfaction. I am informed, however, that the company did not live up to the terms of that contract-they did not put in the forced ventilation as soon as it was stipulated for, and that the rate of speed was not as great as was contracted for. There was not as much complaint last year, because the apple crop of Nova Scotia was comparatively light. But this year. I am informed, the crop will be the heaviest that has been gathered for many years :	the
fruit is of most excellent quality ; and it will tax the capacity of these steamers to carry it in proper condition. It is important that the fruit should be carried in proper condition, and I am satisfied that it will be if such a contract as was entered into last year is carried out by the company. But the shippers have small confidence in the promises of the company. I am informed by many of them that they would sooner there were no subsidy granted at all than that the service should be performed as in the past. Their argument is that the contract with the Furness-Withy Company prevents other companies competing, and therefore they do not have the open competition they would have if no subsidy were granted. I understand that it has been impossible for the department to obtain tenders from any other concern. This I assume is owing to the smallness of the subsidy, and I would urge that this subsidy be increased in the suiople-mentary estimates to a sufficient extent to induce different steamship companies to compete. I would also urge, in the interest or the shippers, that if the minister is not in a position through bis officers to compel the Furness-Withy Company to live up to their contract, no direct contract be given to them. This is a matter of the very greatest importance. Hon. gentlemen can understand that where there is a shipment of 500 or 000 thousand barrels of apples, if there is a loss of even 25 cents per barrel, in consequence of the manner in which the fruit is carried, I Mr. WADE.
that means a very serious loss to the country. I would urge on the minister with the utmost earnestness that if the Furness-YVi-thy Company is to be given this contract, it should only be given it on condition that the department shall be iii a position to see that the company carry it out. There has been a demand on the part of the shippers, and it does seem to me that it is a reasonable demand, that these people should not be contracted with until they have satisfied these claims for damages, or demonstrated that they are not just claims. It may be said that the parties have the courts open to them, where they can go and assert their claims. But it is difficult for a man who ships one or two thousand barrels of apples, and who meets with the loss of twenty-five or fifty cents a barrel, to go into the courts and fight a powerful steamship company. There are hundreds of these shippers, and I think it would be only fair that this company, before they are given another contract, should make a fair adjustment of these claims. It is unfortunate that the country does not seem to have confidence in the Furness-Withy Company ; and, from the information that I have received, I am sure that the Fumess-Withy Company merit the estimation in which they are held by the country.


Mr. GOURLEY.: I desire to concur in what the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) has said. I have received memorials from the Fruit Growers' Association of Annapolis, in which they make a very strong case against this company. It is idle to say that these individual farmers have a remedy against this company. It is irony to tell these people to go into court and fight for $200 or $500 damages, which may be the profit of the whole year's growth, with a company which might lead them from court to court, and compel them to spend their whole profit in a lawsuit, leaving the question at the end in great doubt. I would follow the suggestion of the hon. member for Annapolis so far as to say that I would be perfectly willing to support, as far as I am concerned, a greater subsidy, if that Yvere the remedy to secure proper and safe exportation of the fruit products of the Annapolis valley. Those products are becoming a source of great wealth to the province of Norm Scotia ; and all the people of Canada, especially all the people of the maritime provinces, should be most anxious to see that the fruit reaches the market in such a condition as to command the highest prices and give the largest profits to the people engaged in that business. There may be several ways of effecting this. One way would be to establish a large forfeit in the contract, which the company would be compelled to make, in case there was any substantial complaint of non-compliance with the contract ; and that money should be held back from the company until every claim in connection with the shipments of

each year was settled, and the matter should be adjusted by some officer of the department. The shipper should not be compelled to so into court and perhaps waste three or four years and the whole value of his shipment in contesting the right with this company. Tlie company could, by appealing from court to court, secure an absolute denial of justice. Consequently, I urge on the minister that every means be taken to secure the fruit-growers of Nova Scotia in the matter of the shipment of these fine fruit products. I have received document after document, and paper after paper, asserting that the greatest injustice has been done to that community. I do not wish to charge this injustice to the Department of Trade and Commerce. I have no doubt that it is due to the greed of the company to make money at the expense of the shippers of Nova Scotia without regard to the consequences. I think that can be cured by the officials of the department In some way making it so costly to this company to do wrong that they will be compelled to do right.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have taken careful note of what the hon, gentlemen state. The present contract was made with two or three very stringent clauses in it to secure proper ventilation and proper accommodation for the conveyance of apples. If the company fail to carry out these, I will most assurdly cut their subsidy.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Has the minister any way by which he can ascertain whether the ventilating fans are kept in motion or not during the crossing of the Atlantic ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have on one or two occasions sent down to examine and inspect; but whether the fans are kept in motion on the voyage or not, I cannot say. Except through the intervention of the shippers, I do not see how I can obtain that information. I cannot despatch men on each of these vessels to see that that is attended to.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Is that not where the difficulty comes in, that from the compartments not being ventilated, the injury to the fruit takes place ?


Fletcher Bath Wade: The difficulty last year was that the company did not put the forced ventilation in as soon as they should have done. The ground of complaint was first the uncertainty of the sailings. They advertised their sailings for certain days. The shippers sent fruit down by train to the point of shipment, and there it had to wait sometimes for several days. Then that the speed of the vessels was not up to the contract. Instead of making the trip from Halifax to London within contract time, they would be two or three days longer, which was most serious for the shippers, especially of apples, it being most desirable
that the fruit should only be on board during the shortest possible period.


Richard Blain: I would regard that as a very serious complaint against the boa. minister's department. The hon. member for Annapolis makes a charge against the government-


Fletcher Bath Wade: No, I did not make any charge. I said that the contract was not carried out.


Richard Blain: The hon. gentleman should wait until I had finished. He has made the charge against the government that the government entered into a contract with the steamship company to ply between these two points. He has further stated that after that contract was entered into, the company changed the vessels and put on others which were not up to the contract at all.


Fletcher Bath Wade: In 1901?


Richard Blain: I would regard that as a most serious charge, and the hon. minister should give us some explanation.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The contract provides penalties for infraction of the contract. In several of these cases, particularly in the ease to which reference has been made, a considerable deduction was made from the subsidy that would otherwise be paid, on the score that they had not fully performed their contract. Beyond that or beyond the drastic remedy of dropping this contract altogether, I do not see what we can very well do. These complaints have been investigated. I do not think there was any change in the vessels during the last year. The changes to which the hon. gentleman referred were made a couple of years ago. We have been at pains to insure the introduction of proper apparatus, ventilating and other, for the purpose of carrying these fruits in the best possible condition. That was not put in until somewhat late in the season, and I fined these people for their neglect. If they do not do better this year, I shall either cancel the subsidy altogether or fine them in proportion.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Was the money paid over to the farmers who lost?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, I cannot undertake to act as arbiter between these parties. If the company damage goods by negligence, that is a matter for the courts to investigate. It is quite impossible for any department of the government to sit in judgment on disputes between the shippers and the steamboat owners. We cannot undertake to do that, but we can undertake, if these people fail to perform their contract, either to reduce or stop their subsidy altogether.


Richard Blain: How much was this company fined?


Tile MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The service, of course, is not complained of during the greater part of the year. During the part of the year in which there was complaint, a fine of $2,500 was inflicted on them.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I find on looking at the results that the uncertainty in the time of sailing is one of the chief complaints made by the shipper, and I can understand that to be a very trying difficulty. Surely it is within the power of the hon. minister to notify these people that if the sailings are not punctual-and they ought to lie punctual to the hour, much less to the day -a portion of their subsidy shall be deducted. If such a clause does not already exist, it ought to be inserted in the contract.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There is such a clause, and tiie penalty has been inflicted on several occasions.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What is the penalty for not sailing at the appointed time ?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COSI-S1ERCE. There shall be deducted from the subsidy payable for such a voyage a sum equal to one-tenth of the amount for delays or failure to sail at the dates specified.


Fletcher Bath Wade: There can be no fault found with the contract. I do not see how it can be drawn any stronger. What I am concerned about is difficulties between the company and the shippers. We have a company admittedly in fault every year since it has had the service, and it should not be re-contracted with unless it will absolutely carry out its agreement. I would urge on the government the desirability of increasing this amount sufficiently so that other companies will compete, in which the people have confidence.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the value of the fruit shipped by this line?


Fletcher Bath Wade: The value will be something like $1,500,000 this coming year. Last year it was very small because the crop was almost a failure and the fruit inferior. It was probably not more than one-third of that amount. This service is not for the fruit trade alone. It runs between St. John, Halifax and London all the year around, and incidentally serves the fruit shippers. It is virtually the only line by which shippers can send their fruit.
Steam communication between St. John, Dig;by, from July 1, 1903, to June 30, 1904,' $12,500.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does this carry the mails?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-S1ERCE. Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is it for that the subsidy is granted ?	'


Richard Blain: The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COSI-S1ERCE. Largely for the encouragement of communication along this coast between St. John and Digby.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do the vessels stop at any place between St. John and Digby ?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COSI-S1ERCE. It is between Digby and St. John. They have given us rather more trips than the contract called for during the past year. As a matter of course, they carry the mails, but the mail service is a small affair.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How many trips do they undertake to give for this-subsidy ?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COS1-S1ERCE. During June, July, August and September, a daily round trip ; during October, November, December, March and April, four times a week; during January and February, three times a week. As a matter of fact, they have made the trip much oftener than the contract calls for. The distance from St. John to Digby is forty-five miles.
A line or lines of steamers to run between St. John and Halifax, or either, and the West Indies and South America, $80,700.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do these vessels carry mails too ?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COS1-SIERCE. This is a service which we subsidize in conjunction with the imperial government, we paying about half.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What Imperial purpose does it serve ?
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COS1-SIERCE. They subsidize it to encourage West India trade to St. John and Halifax. In point of fact these vessels call at pretty nearly all the West India islands. They start from Halifax or St. John and call first at Bermuda, then down along the line of West India islands, bringing up at Trinidad. I think they call at eleven or twelve places.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What does the imperial government contribute to this service 7
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-SIERCE. They contribute *5,000 sterling. We had this service before, but it was only about half the service which we now obtain. When the British government made their contribution, they arranged practically to govern the service.


Sir. BORDEN (Halifax).: If I remember rightly, the British government made the contribution at a time when new and improved steamers were put on the route. I think one of the members of the firm who are owners of the steamships, went to England for the purpose, and had an interview with the imperial government. That was some two years ago.
The SIINISTER OF TRADE AND COSI-
S1ERCE. Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: It does answer the purpose of promoting trade between Ihe West Indies and the maritime provinces, and the whole of Canada. I understand that the view the imperial government took was that it was desirable to encourage this trade, inasmuch as several of the West India islands have very excellent steamship communication with the United States, particularly with New York, and the trade of these islands was being very largely diverted to the United States. The trade of the maritime provinces with the West India islands Iras been very great in the past, and is still very considerable. This trade was formerly done by means of small schooners between the ports of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and those of the West Indies. But the trade cannot be done in this way at present, but must be done by steamships; and the trade is not sufficient to maintain a line of steamers without assistance. The maintenance of this steamship communication has been so highly regarded by the imperial government that, as the hon. minister has said, they have made a contribution towards it.
Steam service between Victoria and San Francisco, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This we are bound to carry out under the terms of confederation with British Columbia. It has been largely reduced from time to time.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it a small service as well 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I presume that some mails do go by this route, but since the recent development of railway communication along that coast, I fancy these steamers carry very little mail matter.
Steam communication during the season of 1903. i.e., from the opening to the closing of navigation between the mainland and the Magdalen Islands. $9,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is carried out by the Leslies.


Robert Laird Borden: What ports are touched on the mainland 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: - The steamers go from Pictou, call at Georgetown and Souris, in Prince Edward Island, Amherst Island, Grand Entry, and Grindstone Island, in the Magdalen Islands. This is a weekly service.


Robert Laird Borden: A mail service 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes; it is performed by the steamer ' Amelia.'
Steam communication during the season 1903, i.e.. from the opening to the closing of navigation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, $12,500.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. This is a daily service. Georgetown to Pictou, Summerside to Pointe du Cliene.	-


Robert Laird Borden: By what steamers 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The ' Northumberland ' and the ' Princess.' This is a five years' contract. Tenders were called for, and this was the only one received.
Steam communication from July 1, 1903, to June 30, 1904, between Grand Manan and the mainland, $5,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the population of Grand Manan 7 Is this a mail service 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The population is between 2,000 and 3,000. As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) knows they are a rather isolated community.
Steam communication during the year 1903, i.e., for not less than llfty-two full round weekly trips between St. John and Halifax, via Yarmouth and other wray ports, $10,000.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase iu this vote of $3,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes; it is proposed to make this a weekly service. It used to be thirty-two trips a year.


Richard Blain: I suppose these vessels carry passengers and freight, as well as the malls 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.


Richard Blain: Can the minister tell us whether there is an increase of trade and passenger traffic, and whether it looks as it this service would become self-sustaining?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am rather afraid, judging from past experience, that it will he a good while before it will be self-sustaining. The trade is considerable, but, as reported to me, there does not appear to be any very considerable increase, except, perhaps, in the passenger traffic. The passenger traffic of late has increased a good deal, but not the amount of freight. On the other hand, these vessels have, as a rule, carried pretty good cargoes. They call at a considerable number of ports along that coast.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Why is it more necessary to subsidize a vessel running from one point to another on the Atlantic coast than it is from Kingston to Toronto on Lake Ontario 7


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have asked that question myself once or twice. It is to a considerable extent use and wont. I am inclined to think these services were inherited by us at confederation. Prior to confederation. I believe, the Nova Scotia government used

to subsidize most, but not all, the services for which we are now takiug' votes. Of course, the hon. gentleman is aware that a great many of these sections are very poorly supplied with railway accommodation as compared with other parts of the country. That no doubt is the case why subsidies were originally given, and also why the subsidies are now continued. But I do not know that there is any special reason why one should be subsidized more than the other.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I do not think that is a very good reason. If my memory serves me right, the hon. gentleman used to condemn this expenditure in opposition.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, I do not think I did.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: In the position the right hon. gentleman occupies now, if he finds there is an evil he should check it.
- The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE. I do not think the hon. gentleman will find that I voted to strike it out. Of course, if he thinks it is an improper expenditure, it is quite open to him to move to strike it out.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I do not say that. But as the hon. gentleman feels conscientious scruples about continuing it he ought to have backbone enough to strike it out himself.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: But I did not vote against the subsidies.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I think if the Minister of Trade and Commerce opposed this in opposition, that is the best argument why it should be maintained at the present time. I want to tell the hon. gentleman and the people of Ontario especially, that we have no proper railway accommodation in Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia we have only 900 miles of railway all told, and our province is two or three hundred years of age ; while in Manitoba, which is only of twenty-five or thirty years' growth, they have nearly 3,000 miles of railway. But the Minister of Trade and Commerce was so dominant in Ontario with a certain section of the people-I am bound to say it was a narrow section, such as the Postmaster General leads to-day-


Edward Frederick Clarke: The leadership has passed from the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It was at any rate a narrow section of Ontario. But I find that to-day the belief is thoroughly grounded in the people of Ontario that Sir Charles Tup-per and the men we sent up here filled that province with railways and spent the money ef Canada for the benefit of the maritime provinces, whereas in Ontario they got no public expenditure at all. The fact is we have suffered in the maritime provinces to


Richard John Cartwright: build up the province of Ontario. But we did it uncomplainingly. We said to ourselves that surely the time would come when the people of Ontario would get generous and offer to give back to the people of Nova Scotia something to repay them for the great self-sacrifice they have made to build up the province of Ontario. But the time seems never to come ; and I want the people of Ontario on both sides of the House to understand that so far as railways are concerned, we are simply at the porch of the temple, we have not entered the temple of railway building in the province of Nova Scotia, and we blame that on the people of Ontario. Sir Charles Tupper, when he was here, endeavoured to give railroads, not only to Ontario and to the west, but to the maritime provinces ; but he found his own party first on his back, then he found the Liberals on his back, and he could not struggle up with both parties on his back. He could not liberalize both parties in the province of Ontario. The result was that in Nova Scotia and the maritime provinces we are without railways today. Therefore, we had to resort to these tu'penny ha'penny grants to run steamers around the shores of the province in order to give us communication. But these tu'penny ha'penny grants should be doubled or quadrupled in order to give some practical benefit to the commerce of the maritime provinces.
Steam eomunication between a port or ports in Prince Edward Island Jand a port or ports in Great Britain. $10,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the position of that communication at the present time ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: At present we are getting two trips, and we had a good deal of difficulty in getting vessels to call there. My hon. friends from Prince Edward Island have represented to me that it would be much more profitable for them if this vote was reduced and they obtained better communication with Nova Scotia. I am disposed to do that, and I only require for the service which is now under contract the sum of $5,000. Therefore, I move to reduce that vote to $5,000. But I may state that the sum so saved I propose to give, in the supplementary estimates, to another service for the benefit of the island.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: Is this $10,000 to be appropriated for two trips only ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I propose to appropriate $5,000 to the twe trips that I have contracted for.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Is it the intention of the minister to endeavour to obtain more service if possible ?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. If I could have obtained it I

would have retained the vote in its present shaptj.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: The right hon. gentleman has not entirely given up the idea of trying to obtain a better service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No ; but for the present year I do not propose to deprive the island of the $5,000 ; I propose to apply it for its benefit in another service, which will be brought down in the supplementary estimates.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Would, the right hon. gentleman state what service that will be ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The service for which the balance will be appropriated will be between Prince Edward Island, Sydney and Newfoundland.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Has the right hon. minister any steamer to undertake that service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We are endeavouring to arrange for that at the present moment.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Does the right: hon. minister know when the first trip will be made to the old country ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We expect in October and that trips will also be made in November and December as may be found most convenient for the trade of the island.


Robert Laird Borden: In what way is the $5,000 that is to be appropriated for some other service to be expended ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: In providing a service between Prince Edward Island, Sydney and Newfoundland.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there any steamer on that route at present or is one to be provided ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: One is to be provided.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: What steamer do you propose to get for the service between Prince Edward Island, Sydney and Newfoundland?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We are negotiating for that, but we have not settled the matter yet.
Direct fortnightly steam service between Montreal, Quebec amd Manchester, England, during thp summer season, and between St. John. Halifax and Manchester during the winter season, $35,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What line receives this subsidy ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The Manchester Line. The ships are known as the Manchester Line with various addenda, such as ' Manchester Liner,' 243
' Manchester Trader,' ' Manchester Commerce ' and names of that kind. The hon. gentleman, I suppose, is aware, that the reason why we have! been induced to take this up is that the corporation of Manchester has constructed a ship canal leading directly to the city of Manchester which is the centre, perhaps, of the very largest consuming population in England and we have deemed it expedient to endeavour to promote trade with Manchester. A very considerable trade has been developed, it is increasing and is likely to increase. The subsidy was formerly $38,000 and it has been reduced to $35,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Are these boats supplied with cold storage or cooled chambers ?
The MINISTER OF 'TRADE AND1 COMMERCE. Most of them are supplied with cold storage, but not all. I may also mention that these people have considerably exceeded their contract. They have given us more voyages than the contract called for. I think the chances are that the trade will not merely develop in a way that will make it a valuable trade for us, but if I am correctly advised the population around Manchester is so densed that within a circuit of between three and four miles there is now stated to be a population of nearly 8,000,000 people, almost all of whom are consumers and not producers of food stuffs; so that, if we can establish a trade proportionate to the consumption we will do very well.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there any stipulation in the contract requiring the vessels or any number of them to be supplied with cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Most of them are. The corporation of Manchester, who, I understand, are largely concerned in these vessels have, as perhaps the hon. gentleman knows, warehouses especially adapted to the reception of food products in which everything can be placed immediately on arrival. My deputy tells me that he believes that all but two are supplied with the requisite cold storage accommodation.
Direct monthly steam communication between Canada and South Africa, $146,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This we had under discussion some few weeks ago, as perhaps hon. gentlemen will remember, and I laid upon the Table the contract with the three firms who proposed to carry this on. Of course, nothing has been paid to them as yet. It depends entirely' on the vote of the House.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: What ports will be called at ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Cape Town, Durban and Port Elizabeth.


Samuel Hughes: And East London ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have the liberty of requiring them to call at three ports besides Cape Town.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How many trips have been made already?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They commenced in October and they have made eight or nine trips, I think.
Mr. CLARKE, i Have the ships had any difficulty in getting cargoes both ways ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The chief complaint that has reached me as yet has been not so much on this side as on the other side. I have been in communication with parties in Natal in the endeavour to obtain better accommodation for our ships when they go there. They have complained that they were held over and found a good deal of difficulty and delay in discharging their cargoes. On the whole the cargoes have been pretty good.


Edward Frederick Clarke: From where ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: From here.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do they get a return cargo ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Not much. There is comparatively little at present to return to us from South Africa. It may improve.


Edward Frederick Clarke: They come back in ballast ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We do not interfere with their return voyage. It is their voyage to South Africa that we are concerned in. When they get to South Africa they have to find their way back, but they may go to England, Australia or elsewhere provided a vessel is1 forthcoming at the requisite time on our side of the ocean.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What do their cargoes from here consist of ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have sent lumber, agricultural implements, and we sent out what the Americans would call a cargo of notions on two or three occasions-furniture and miscellaneous articles of all sorts and descriptions. WTe have also been sending a good deal of flour and oats.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much flour has been sent ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am told that on several of their voyages the amount of flour sent was a couple of thousand tons, which is very good if it lasts.


Richard John Cartwright: 


Samuel Hughes: Are the Canadian agents in Africa under the control of the department presided over by the fight hon. gentleman?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, if Mr. Jardine is the gentleman referred to.


Samuel Hughes: What does he do ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: His present office is to examine the general condition of the country and to report from time to time, and he has made ten or eleven reports to us


Samuel Hughes: Reports are easily made.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes. He has made these reports pointing out the articles that in his judgment can be most advantageously dealt with from Canada to South Africa. I might add that he has called attention to one feature of the trade which I hope will not need to be called attention to again, and that is the fact that goods forwarded to South Africa on two or three occasions have not been equal to the samples sent.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What kind of goods?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Articles like lumber. They did not equal the articles that had been ordered, and a good deal of trouble ensued in consequence. I need not say to the House that it is of the first importance, particularly when you are opening up a new trade, that the articles sent should at the very least equal the description. Nothing can do us more harm, in opening up new trade, than to let it be supposed that Canadian merchants will not live up to the samples they send, or will not attend to the orders that are given to them.


Samuel Hughes: It would be advisable that the commercial agents for Canada, both in South Africa and Australia, should not only act as agents for the sale of Canadian goods, but should encourage the people of these countries to trade with us. I found in Australia and New Zealand very little interest in Canadian trade, because there was no market in Canada for any of their produce, which largely consists of hides and wool. If there was some interest on the part of the merchants there who have goods to sell in Canadian trade, it would be a great help to Canada.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Quite true. I have instructed them on that head.


Samuel Hughes: I might point out that in Canada there are two firms that have taken first and second prizes in England for the manufacture of wind pumps.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What's that?


Samuel Hughes: Wind pumps.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


Samuel Hughes: I have no doubt that Canada is well able to turn out wind pumps, as wind is at a premium. However, I have no reference to the Department of Agriculture.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am not under lire to-day.


Samuel Hughes: If our agent drew attention to this fact in South Africa, he would find a ready sale for these articles.


Richard Blain: When was this South African subsidy first granted?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The first vote was $5,000 a couple of years a^o, but that was only for the purpose of getting a ship to make an experimental voyage, and I think lumber was chiefly carried.


Richard Blain: The vote is now $146,000, and no doubt the Canadian people are anxious to get this trade if possible, but would the minister tell us why he recommended such a large expenditure and what is his anticipation of the future as to trade with South Africa.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is to be regarded as an experiment, of course, but it was only found possible to obtain a regular monthly steamship service by offering pretty liberal treatment. From Montreal to Cape Town the distance is 6,500 miles, and to Durban it would be 1,000 miles further. We found it almost impossible to get any single company to undertake this service, and the contract is made in a somewhat unusual fashion, the Allans, the Elder-Dempster and the Furness-Withy lines each taking one-third. I placed the contract on the Table of the House a few weeks ago giving full details. How far it will succeed I cannot say as yet, but there is a very considerable industrial development going on in South Africa, particularly in the Transvaal, and the parts adjacent, and it is hoped that we will be able to supply them not merely with a very considerable amount of coarse goods, such as lumber, but food products of various kinds, and possibly furniture and agricultural implements.


Richard Blain: Who is our chief competitor there ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The United States have a pretty large trade there, and one chief reason for our establishing the service was the complaint made to us by Canadian merchants that their consignments were tossed to one side in New York, and that they had very little satisfaction in trading from that port. The various representatives of commerce throughout the country pressed on us rather 243i
strongly to give them a Canadian line, in which case they stated a very considerable trade would be developed. It is too early yet to judge, but I think there is a fair chance that a reasonable trade will be developed; I hope a large trade ultimately. The difficulty is that there is no large return cargo, and we are obliged to allow the various ships, if they cannot obtain cargo for Canada, to go around by England or elsewhere.


Richard Blain: I am informed that so far the expectation of the government has not been realized, and that the trade during the eight months has not been up to expectations.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I cannot exactly say that. I did not expect myself that it could attain full grown proportions in the course of six months. You will have to nourish these infants a little before you can expect very much out of them.


Richard Blain: Is there any complaint from the shippers in respect to the freight rates?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There was some complaints six or seven months ago, but lately I am told that the service has been more satisfactory.


Richard Blain: What was the complaint ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The complaint was, in part, that the service was irregular, that they did not start on the day appointed, and that they attempted to obtain American trade in preference to Canadian.


Richard Blain: Is not that the complaint at the present moment?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am told that the present complaint has been made as to the matter of cold storage provided for in the contract; that an undue proportion of that has been assigned to American shippers. I called the attention of the various parties concerned to that, and I think if that has been the case heretofore it will be remedied now.


Richard Blain: I suppose that the anticipation of the government was that there would be some fruit trade developed between South Africa and Canada ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, I did not expect that there would be much of that.


Richard Blain: What is the cold storage for to which the hon. minister refers ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is for the benefit of Canadian products.


Richard Blain: I understand that there is a very serious complaint from the fruitgrowers of Canada that the vessels are not

fitted up in such a way tliat we might expect a trade between Canada and South Africa to develop.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The storage accommodation provided was, I think, intended, not so much for fruit, although that is, of course, an item that may be included, as for such articles as cheese, meat products and perhaps butter. If the hon. gentleman will look at the contract which has been laid on the Table, he will find the details there set out pretty fully.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do we send butter to South Africa ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We tried to do so, and were fairly successful. We send considerable cheese. Of course, these vessels have to cross the equator, where there is risk of injury to the products. I depend more upon cheese, meat products and canned products than upon such an article as butter. There is a pretty large demand in Johannesburg and all the adjacent regions of thel Rand. The American trade with them! amounts to a very considerable sum. That we hope to cut into.


Richard Blain: I understand that these vessels carry American products as well as Canadian. Can the hon. gentleman tell us which are carried at the cheaper rate ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The freight rate from New York is somewhat lower, I think, than ours, but not very much. That is scarcely to be avoided under the circumstances.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do these vessels call at New York ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, they go straight to Cape Town, and then along the coast.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do they come to our ports from New York ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: They are at liberty to go where they please on the return voyage. They may come from New York, but they do not take any freight from New York. They carry Canadian freight from the various ports between Montreal and Halifax.


Mr. KAULBACH.: How many trips are made under this contract each year 1


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There is one trip per month. We have the right to vary the ports from time to time, as we see fit.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: On the return voyage, the vessels could go to Buenos Ayres anti get wool or tallow and to Rio for coffee.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, they may go where they please. There is at present scarcely any return freight from South Africa.


Richard John Cartwright: 


Robert Laird Borden: I observe that there is provision in the contract by which the government can establish a maximum of freight rates. Can the hon. gentleman tell whether or not any such schedule of rates has been established ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Not as yet. We have been waiting to see how this trade developed before we attempted that.


Richard Blain: Does the hon. minister know whether the United States government pay any subsidy to vessels ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think they pay nothing.


Robert Laird Borden: I understood the hon. minister to say that there had been some complaint with regard to the allotment to American shippers of too much cold storage accommodation. As a. matter of fact, is there any considerable quantity of produce shipped to the United States, by means of these lines ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The hon. gentleman knows that the Canadian Pacific usually picks up a certain amount of American freight and takes it through to St. John. It has been from that quarter chiefly that any American produce has come.


Mr. ROBINSON (West Elgin).: Where does the Canadian agent make his headquarters ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: He has been travelling all over South Africa, from Cape Town to Pretoria and Johannesburg, with an excursion into Rhodesia. It is a pretty large country, and his instructions were in the first instance to make himself acquainted with the whole of the South African territory under British rule. He reports regularly to my department, and his reports are communicated to the various boards of trade and commerce.


Jabel Robinson: What wages does he get ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Two thousand dollars a year and his travelling expenses.


Robert Laird Borden: The minister speaks of the American traffic over this line as being largely by way of St. John ; that is to say, the shipments from Montreal and Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I refer to what is carried in cold storage. I do not think there has been any large amount of the other kinds.


Robert Laird Borden: Could the minister give us any idea of what proportion of the carryings consist of United States produce and manufactures, and what proportion of Canadian produce and manufactures ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: With the exception of what is carried in cold storage, the percentage of American goods carried is very small. The great bulk has been Canadian goods, and our instructions, of course, were that Canadian goods should have the preference.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, it might alter our ideas as to the advisability of a very large subsidy to this line if eventually we found that the cargo consisted largely of products or manufactures of the United States. Therefore we should have as definite information on that point as the hon. minister can give us.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: My information is that but a small percentage of American goods is carried, except of the goods carried in cold storage,, of which there was a good deal carried at one time ; but I understand that now the Canadians are getting the bulk of that.


Mr.   CLARICE@: If these vessels are paid this subsidy for the purpose of carrying Canadian products, surely they should not be allowed to carry American goods.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I suppose the hon. gentleman would not refuse to carry American goods if there is room, and the shippers pay for carrying them ?


Mr.   CLARICE@: Then it appears that we are subsidizing this line to enable American manufacturers to compete with ours.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No, on the contrary, supposing that these vessels carried 3,000 or 4,000 tons Canadian goods and were able also to carry 1,000 or 2,000 tons of American goods to fill up with, for which they would be paid, that would enable them to carry Canadian goods relatively cheaper.


Mr.   CLARICE@: But the American government do not have to pay for that privilege.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If we have enough Canadian goods to fill the vessels, the Americans will send none. If there is a deficiency of Canadian goods, the vessels will take American goods. I do not think it would be very good policy to refuse the American goods when we have not enough of our own.


Mr.   CLARICE@: That may be a matter of opinion. It is news to me that these vessels were permitted to carry American freight.
. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE. I never knew of a case in which a clause was put in a contract forbidding the carrying of freight from any port, though preference might be given to Canadian freight.


Mr.   CLARICE@: We are paying $14(3,000 for this service to South Africa and it is
carrying American freight as well as our own.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It may carry some, but the great bulk is Canadian.


Mr.   CLARICE@: I do not know whether our boards of trade are aware of that fact.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I should say that if we desire to make the best of our routes, particularly the St. Lawrence route, so far from discouraging American goods going by the n, I should be glad to see millions of tons of American produce coming down the St. Lawrence and going in our steamships to other parts of the world. These goods will find itheir way across anyhow, and w*e may as well have the benefit of the trade.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Have Canadians got any better rates by reason of the space being filled up with American products than if American products were not taken ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think they would. If a vessel has accommodation for 5,000 tons and can only got 3,000 tons of Canadian freight, the chances are that the Canadian producer would get better rates if the other 2,000 tons were made up from any other quarter. You will have to pay this service what it costs to take the vessels from one side to the other.


David Henderson: The only point is that we are subsidizing vessels to carry the products of a foreign competitor as well as our own.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The great bulk of the freight which we do send is our own, and I do not see that we will gain anything by prohibiting other goods.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the hon. gentleman inform us what proportion of the freight is Canadian and what American '!


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I doubt very much if ten per cent is American.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the average tonnage of these ships V


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: About 5,000 or 6,000.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I understood that the American part of the cargo consists of goods that have gone in cold storage V


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Some portion of it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That would be food products ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, of course we ourselves are sending some by New York.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where does this fruit come from ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It is supplied us by the railway systems chiefly. Some come by the Grand Trunk Railway and some by the Canadian Pacific Railway.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where do we get our supply of American freight ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The only trade we get is what comes across our lines of railway, the Grand Trunk Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway.


Richard Blain: I understand that there are three companies, each getting a portion of this $146,000. Did any of the vessels call at Canadian ports before the government entered into this contract ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Of course, the Allan Line did.


Richard Blain: Did the others ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Also the Elder-Dempster called at Canadian ports, but they did not go to South Africa.


Richard Blain: Were any vessels put on after this contract was entered into 'i


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: New vessels were put on certainly by the Elder-Dempster Line. The Furness-Withy I am not sure of. The- Allan's have a large steamship fleet, and they relegated some of their vessels to this South African service. Several vessels formerly employed on other routes were put into the South African service.


Richard Blain: Has the hon. gentleman any means of ascertaining what proportion of the cargo comes from the United States V


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That is somewhat difficult, because we receive the goods from the railway companies and they do not discriminate between the two very carefully. We are obliged to approximate, but I think I am right in stating that the percentage is but. small.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I should like if possible to have definite information on that point.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I will try. It is somewhat difficult to get minute information. I can tell the hon. gentleman generally that the great bulk of the cargoes has been supplied by Canada.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where did the hon. gentleman get that information ?
. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE. From the steamship companies and customs.


Richard John Cartwright: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: Would it be unreasonable to inquire from the steamship companies what are the exact quantities that come from the United States '!


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Certainly.
Steam communication during the season uf 1903. i.e.. from the opening to the closing of navigation, between Gaspe basin and Dalhousie or Campbellton, $12,500.


Robert Laird Borden: Is any ehauge being made in the service ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This used to be performed by the steamer ' Admiral '. It is now being performed by a screw steamer of greater draught. But there has been some difficulty about getting into various harbours.


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).: Has the contract been signed ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: No.


Charles Marcil: I cannot allow this item to pass, Mr. Chairman, without thanking the Minister of Trade and Commerce for the trouble he has gone to during the last two or three years in trying to improve this service. I might also mention the right hon. the Prime Minister in this connection. The hon. member for Gas-p6 (Mr. Lemieux) and myself have been to see the right hon. gentlemen often in the last three years to try to get a more satisfactory service than has been given in the past. This service is from Dalhousie to Gasp6 Basin, a distance of 160 miles, along the whole county of Bonaventure and Gaspe. The county of Gaspe being entirely without railways, and Bonaventure the same for nearly one-third of the distance, great importance is attached to this steamship service. The old steamer ' Admiral ' performed this service for twenty-five or thirty years. But, though a good boat in her time, the ' Admiral ' is somewhat out of date. She was formerly the property of General Grant as far back as 1864. She is a paddle-wheel steamer, and, for that reason, not fitted for the route. For the last five or six years the people have insisted on a change and on a more modern steamer being provided. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Trade and Commerce saw the reasonableness of the request and invited Mr. Connolly, who has the contract under the name of the North Atlantic Transportation Company, to secure a better and a more modern boat, and one propelled with a screw, so that she could start earlier in the spring and keep the service up later in the fall, for the service in the Baie des Cbaleur can easily be kept up for at least ten months in the year and a specially constructed vessel could ply along that coast for almost twelve months in the year. Paspebiac and other ports are open for the whole twelve months. Mr. Connolly

consented last year, at the request of the government, to remove the ' Admiral ' and replace her with a better boat. He went to England and secured a freight boat which he named the ' Restigouche.' This	boat has	been	performing the
service since the spring without a contract with the government. And I must say, the letters that	X receive from
my constituents are strongly to the effect that the ' Restigouche ' is altogether unsuitable for the service. She is a good freight boat, but not suitable for passenger service. And, in a country where there are no railways, the question of passenger accommodation on the steamboat is a very important one. There were very few cabins on the * Restigouche,' though a certain number have been added since she was put on this route. She is now performing the service in a more or less satisfactory manner without a contract; but, I presume that at the end of the season Mr. Connolly will come and ask the government to pay him for the number of trips he has made. There is published at Campbellton, New Brunswick, from which it is proposed to run this service, a newspaper called ' Events ', which is a non-political paper, and I believe, fair in these matters. It speaks of this steamer service, which, it should be remembered, is not only for the people of that locality, but for the large number of tourists who visit this section in summer. The editor of this paper went on one of the trips of the 'Restigouche,' and he has given his impression in an article of two columns and a half iii that newspaper. Of course, I have no intention of reading that article, but I may be allowed to read extracts in order to convince the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce of the necessity that exists for a change in this service. In a portion of his article the editor points out the requirements of a boat for that particular service :
What are the requirements for a boat for the Bay Chaleur ?
Not too commodious, but staunch.
Quick in getting under speed.
Very responsive to her wheel.
Not drawing a great deal of water.
Good speed out of port and prepared for a little ice in a late season.
The ' Restigouche ' is too long, while proportionately narrow, practically doesn't make a wharf at all, naturally slow in getting under speed, draws too much water, being a single screw boat Is helpless to back water, and except under speed her helm is not of service.
In short as to her present requirements she is out of her element
If she were here to make a through trip, Dal-housie to Gaspe for handling freight and accommodating passengers, with a little further care for those on board she would give good service, but that is not her work and far from it.
When the boat leaves Dalhousie at two o'clock in the morning, she has twenty-two or twenty-three stops to make before reaching Gaspe at ten or eleven o'clock at night. Being a coasting steamer, she is expected to go as near as possible to the shore. But a boat drawing sixteen feet of water cannot go near the shore and people have to go out in small boats and wait, it may be for twr or three hours, for the boat to come along One of the stops is New Carlisle ; but till first trip made by the ' Restigouche ' she passed by the shiretown of Bonaventure without stopping at all, to the great disappointment of the people. She had through freight for Gaspe Basin, and did not stop. The editor of ' Events ' describes her efforts to stop at Carleton, which is a well known summer resort. Where there is a splendid wharf with fourteen feet of water at high water :
Our first stop was Carleton, where in an effort to come to the wharf, it was sadly missed and the ' Restigouche ' found herself getting into the beach sand in her smugglings to keep to her element. Reversing her screw (and those who purported to know said that except when dead still it is not permissible at all) the whole boat shook from brow to stern, but she finally got back and a second effort brought her up angling broadside on the narrow end of the wharf. We need not here enumerate the sailors' efforts but suffice to say almost two hours were required to secure her to the posts.
It will easily be seen that a boat of that kind is not suitable for this service. What is required is a boat drawing not more than ten feet of water, or twelve feet at the outside ; a screw steamer that will break through the thin ice in Dalhousie and Gaspe Basin, in the month of April and keep up the service to the 1st of January. She should have proper passenger accommodation, and also be able to handle freight, because considerable freight is carried on that line. I have said these words in justice to my constituents, and I know that if the hon. member for Gaspe were in the House at the present time-he had to leave for Montreal this afternoon-he would have endorsed every word I say. I hope the right hon. minister will take steps which will result in an improved service next year. If calling for tenders publicly is the only protection we can have, I hope they will be called for early during the present season. It should be stipulated that this navigation should be kept up as long as possible, not merely at Dalhousie, because that is a landlocked basin where ice forms early in November, but be kept up for ten months in the year, where it can be easily kept up, in the Baie des Chaleurs. That is all I have to say. I once more thank the Minister of Trade and Commerce for the trouble he has gone to to secure us a good service, and I would ask him to excuse me for the trouble I have felt it my duty to put him to. The peculiar situation of these counties requires special attention to this steamship service.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The ' Restigouche ' has not given


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is done by a steamboat company to Campobello.


Mr. GANONG.: The only objection is that this vote is at least $1,000 less than what is needed to give the service we should have.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: My hon. friend will find in the supplementary estimates something more for the purpose of carrying out that service.
Administration of the Chinese Administration Act. including remuneration to trade and com merce and customs officers, $5,000.


George Taylor: There Is an increase.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We have had a good many more immigrants and a good deal more is received from them. The number of Chinese immigrants during the year has increased from 2,544 to 3,587 ; and the revenue has increased from $178,000 to $364,000. We are getting now about $500,000 out of the Chinese. I suppose when the present statute comes into force that will be stopped.


Robert Laird Borden: By what means is the Immigration Act administered ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Under the supervision of the controller of Chinese Immigration, but we chiefly employ customs officials and give them a certain allowance to look after these immigrants and to collect the poll-tax. The tax is chiefly collected at Vancouver or Victoria.


Robert Laird Borden: The amount received for the past year was how much ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: $364,000. For the present year the amount is estimated to be $526,000. One-half goes to us and one-half to the British Columbia government.


Richard Blain: What is the increased tax ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That does not come into force till the 1st of January next. Of course the increased number is probablv due to anticipation on the part of these people.


Richard Blain: How many are in Canada at the present time, giving the number by provinces if it is convenient ?
The MINISTER OF TRADE! AND COMMERCE. I am afraid I will have to refer


Richard John Cartwright: the hon. gentleman to the census for the exact numbers. But about 20,000 are supposed to be in Canada now, the great bulk in British Columbia.


Richard Blain: How many have come in since notice of the increased tax has been given ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The number reported to have come in is 3,587.
Canada's proportion of expenditure In connection with International Customs Tariff Bureau, $600.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is a small charge that we pay to the customs bureau in Bruxelles.


Robert Laird Borden: What does it do ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It is supposed to furnish us with information as to the changes occurring from time to time in the tariffs of the various countries in Europe and elsewhere. It is a bureau of information. We subscribe for the purpose of receiving early notice of the changes.


Richard Blain: Do we get an annual report ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, we get reports much more frequently than annually. We get the changes in the tariffs whenever any are made by the respective governments connected with this.


Richard Blain: Are they published in the blue-books ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.
Commercial agencies, .improving expenses in connection with negotiation of treaties or in extension of commercial relations, $40,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: This is the same as heretofore. There have been four officers appointed since last year-one, Mr. Poindron, in Paris ; another, Mr. Jardine, in South Africa ; another, Mr. Ross, in Melbourne, Australia, and another, Mr. Ball, in Birmingham.


Robert Laird Borden: How many commercial agencies have we altogether ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Eleven.


Robert Laird Borden: In what places are they established ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There is Mr. Larke at Sydney, Mr. Ross at Melbourne, Mr. Jardine in South Africa, Mr. Ball at Birmingham, Mr. Poindron in Paris, Mr. Burke at Kingston, Jamaica, Mr. Bryson at Antigua, Mr. Hors-ford at St. Kitts, Mr. Tripp at Trinidad and Tobago, and Mr. Sontum at Christiana, Norway.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the right hon. gentleman give us some idea as to the service to the country which these commercial agents render ?


The MINISTER. OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The minor ones, as the hon. gentleman will see from the salaries fixed which are very small, report from time to time whenever they see any chance of trade and they keep us informed as to what trade is going on with Canada in their particular districts. The ones who receive larger salaries, such as Messrs. Larke, Ross, Jardine, Ball and Poindron, are expected to traverse the country more or less in which they reside, to report to us as a rule monthly, or oftener when required, and generally to advise us in what possible direction the trade of Canada can be developed. Of course, most of these gentlemen have been appointed very recently. Mr. Larke is the only old appointment. He has been in New South Wales for a considerable number of years.


Richard Blain: Have there been any new appointments during the present year ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, I gave them. Mr. Ross was appointed at Melbourne, Mr. Jardine at Cape Town, Mr. Ball at Birmingham and Mr. Poindron at Paris.


Robert Laird Borden: Would the right hon. gentleman give us his opinion as to the practical results which they get from this expenditure ? Does he regard this expenditure as well justified ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Well, most of these gentlemen have just been appointed. Mr. Ross has only been appointed for six months, Mr. Jardine for about a year, Mr. Bail for two or three months, and Mr. Poindron for six or eight months. How far these gentlemen will succeed in developing trade and commerce I can hardly say as yet. They all appear to be very zealous in calling the attention of the communities in which they reside to the articles that Canada can produce and in making suggestions as far as they can to Canadian manufacturers and merchants as to what classes of articles are best adapted for the markets, in what way they should be prepared and generally how trade can be increased. I am in hopes that they will justify the expenditure of the sum which we are now asking for them, but in most cases the appointments are too recent to say how much or how little they may accomplish. Mr. Larke's reports which have been received for a period of six or seven years are very carefully prepared and I think he has done his utmost to promote trade with Australasia. This trade has shown a very considerable development within the last few years and I have no doubt Mr. Larke has contributed considerably to it. The other gentlemen, I think, will assist more or less in diffusing information, but it will rest, of course, very largely with the manufacturers and merchants themselves who may choose to take advantage of it. These officers discharge to a very great extent the functions which are discharged by the consular agents appointed by European countries under somewhat similar circumstances. You may regard them as Canadian consular agents.
Bounties on iron and steel and on the refining of lead. To cover expenditure in connection with the administration of the Acts, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Most of this will be refunded by the parties to whom these bounties are granted. We are obliged, of course, to check the products and will be obliged to increase considerably our vigilance particularly in the case of lead bounties.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increasei of $2,500.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes, the hon. gentleman is aware that we are increasing the bounties on iron and steel and lead and probably there will he a considerable additional output in both of these cases.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not quite see, although the hon. gentleman seems to imagine I should, why an increase in the bounties would increase the expenditure.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It will increase the output and consequently will increase the amount of work that will have to be done, and moreover I suspect that the justification for giving the bounty is that a number of lead mines will come into operation which are practically idle now.


Robert Laird Borden: If it covers lead also. I admit there is force in the right hon. gentleman's observation.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It covers lead. We propose to make these parties pay the expense of inspecting them and seeing that they earn the bounty in conformity with the regulations.
Inspection of staples-chief inspectors, inspectors. deputy inspectors and other employees under the general inspection of the Manitoba Grain Acts, $48,000.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: These officers were in former times paid out of the Manitoba grain fund and they were paid by fees. We have deemed it better that these officers should receive a fixed salary, and that the fees should go into the consolidated revenue fund. We received from the fees collected up to June 30 of the present year $76,900, and the total expenses have been $65,000.

Inspection of binder twine, $2,500.


George Taylor: Will the minister explain tvhy he appointed an inspector of hinder twine ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Various complaints have been made to us by farmers and others that the binder twine was not up to the requirements, and we thought it expedient to make ' sure that the farmers' interests were duly protected, and we appointed an inspector at a salary of $1,200.


George Taylor: How can an inspector inspect a lot of binder twine ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Probably in the same way as you would inspect barrels of apples, by taking samples and seeing that they correspond with the requirements of the law.


George Taylor: How will he do it-by taking samples ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Each parcel of binder twine is supposed to contain a certain number of yards and, I think, a certain weight, and he can inspect a number of these parcels in the factories, and if he finds that on the average they are correct, he would be justified in assuming that the remainder are good. If he found there was a deficiency in any considerable number of these he would be justified in so reporting, and have the parties fined. There is a statute providing penalties in the event of binder twine being deficient in quantity or quality.


David Henderson: I do not think it applies to the quality, but only to the quantity. The statute provides that there must be a tag on each ball showing the number of feet per pound, and I apprehend that this inspector's duties would be to see that it contained the proper length.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: He will see that the statute is complied with.


David Henderson: Will that apply to American twine as well as Canadian?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: My instructions to him were to see that the American twine came up to the standard represented.


David Henderson: The importer is liable if the statute is not complied with.


Jabel Robinson: Has the inspector been inspecting binder twine this season ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.


Jabel Robinson: Has he reported to you ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Yes.


Richard John Cartwright: 


Jabel Robinson: Did he find any delinquents ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: He reported to me that as a rule the results have been satisfactory. I think they are allowed a deficiency of five percent, but if it is more than five per cent, they are liable to be fined. His report is that the majority of the manufacturers have complied with the law.


George Taylor: The minister might just as well admit that this was done for the purpose of giving a job to Mr. Joseph Haycock, who was the leading Patron element in helping the Liberals in the elections of 1806, and who deserved something at their hands. Mr. Haycock had to be provided for, and so they appointed him inspector of binder twine, something that there is no more use for than there is for appointing an inspector of mosquitoes. If he wants to inspect a ball of twine he has to unravel it, and that spoils the ball and the government will have to pay for it. That is about all Mr. Haycock has to do. The farmers of this country are shrewd and sharp enough to inspect their own twine when they are buying it.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: It is just a job.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We would not do such a thing.


Richard Blain: How did you manage to get along for several years without this inspector ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Complaints were made to the department that the farmers' interests were neglected.


Richard Blain: I suppose there is some correspondence with respect to this appointment ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I don't think there is any correspondence.


Richard Blain: When was the statute passed providing for inspection of binder twine?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am not quite certain, but it wras prior to the inspection being assigned to the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Richard Blain: And since it was passed the binder twine had been manufactured in the penitentinary without any inspection at all. Has there been any general complaint with respect to the quality of the twine manufactured ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: As to the penitentiary, I cannot say, but there have been complaints that the balls of twine were not up to the standard prescribed by the statute.


Richard Blain: What are the inspector's duties ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: To go to the several factories at which twine is manufactured, and also to inspect from time to time the larger wholesale and retail establishments in which twine is sold. If he discovers any defalcation, he has to report and endeavour to have the party fined.


Mr.   BRAIN@: Seventy-five per cent of the twine now consumed in Canada is manufactured in the United States. Has the inspector anything to do with that twine ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: His instructions are to ascertain whether the twine sold conforms with the provisions of the statute.


Richard Blain: There was a time in the history of Canada when a large proportion of the twine consumed in Canada was manufactured in this country, but at the present time, since the free trade policy adopted by my hon. friend, 75 per cent of the twine used in Canada has been manufactured in the United States.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am not prepared to say what the proportion is.


Richard Blain: That statement was made in the House, and I think it is within the mark. What I do not understand is that when there was a very large quantity of twine manufactured in Canada the government did not see fit to appoint an inspector, but now, when a much smaller quantity is manufactured, they think it necessary to have an inspector.


David Henderson: I do not think it makes much difference whether we have an inspector or not. The idea of appointing one man to inspect all the binder twine used in Canada is utterly ridiculous ; he cannot examine the thousandth part of it. I am inclined to think, with my hon. friend from Leeds, that the object has been a good deal more to find a position for Mr. Haycock than for any good he is likely to accomplish. I am sure that all the balls of binder twine lie will examine will not return very mufch profit to the farmers of this country. You would require to have fifty men, if you are going properly to inspect the binder twine used by the people of this country. Then, what is going to become of the twine that Mr. Haycock inspects ? A man cannot inspect a ball of twine without destroying it. Is the government going to pay the manufacturers or the agents whose twine is examined, for the loss they have sustained by reason of the inspection ? Because, when a ball of twine is once unwound, I rather think it will not accomplish the purpose for which it was made. I have heard it said that Mr. Haycock has some instrument by which he can rewind the twine, but I think he will not be able to do it in that scientific way required to make it run freely off the binder. There will be a considerable sum required to compensate the binder twine men for the twine lost in this way, and the minister had better put it in supplementary estimates.


Uriah Wilson: What particular qualifications has Mr. Haycock for this position?
I did not think that a market gardener was specially qualified to inspect binder twine.
I presume that the reason Mr. Haycock got the appointment was because of the good he did the government in stumping the various counties for them. He stumped mine, but I do not think he did any harm, because he is too well known in that part of the country. I remember the Minister of Trade and Commerce once writing a letter in which he claimed that the Patron platform was the policy of the Liberal party, and economy was then a prominent plank in that Patron platform. I do not know what economy there is in appointing a man as inspector of binder twine because he posed at a Patron, .and at the same time stumped for the Liberals.


Richard Blain: We would like the hon. minister to make a statement of the qualifications of Mr. Haycock for this appointment.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If the hon. gentleman has met Mr. Haycock, on the stump or anywhere, I think he will substantiate my statement that Mr. Haycock is a man of very decided intelligence.


Edward Frederick Clarke: He has made a very bad use of it.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I have known men of intelligence in very high positions who have put their intelligence to a very bad use-not meaning anything personal to my hon. friend.


Richard Blain: I did not understand that it was one of the necessary qualifications of a binder twine inspector that he should be a good stump speaker. I might remind the hon. minister that there is a very large number yet to be provided for. For myself, I wish to enter a protest against this expenditure, and I think I shall move to strike out the vote. As I understand the law respecting the manufacture of binder twine, it provides that each binder twine manufacturer must put a tag upon each ball, stating the number of feet per pound in the ball. If that is true, what is the necessity of having an inspector ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Sometimes they make mistakes, and do not give the requisite number.


Richard Blain: This gentleman was appointed last June. There has been a very large amount of twine manufactured since then, and I suppose the officer has made some report to the department as to the duties he has performed-whether he has found that any of the twine manufacturers

in Canada Lave not been living up to the law, and whether the large quantity of binder twine imported into this country has been found to be up to the standard manufactured by the Canadian people.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: He has made a report, and, so far as he can discover up to the present date, the twine manufactured corresponds with the regulations imposed by the law.


George Taylor: Will the hon. minister bring down his report ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Certainly.


George Taylor: If the hon. minister had appointed an inspector to see that the manufacturers did not make over 100 per cent profit, he might be of some value to the Canadian farmers. If the hon. gentleman will turn up ' Hansard ' of July 29, he will find that the Minister of Justice gave the prices that were paid for pure manilla each year since 1893, and if he will look at the report made by the late Minister of Justice, he will find that twine can be manufactured for f cents per pound. To that add the cost of the manilla, and a reasonable profit, and you will have the price at which the inspector should see that the twine is sold to the farmers. Double it, if you like, and you will see that the farmers have paid a good deal more. air. Clarke, of Toronto, asked :
What was the average price per pound paid each year since 1893 by the government of Canada for man-ilia used in the manufacture of binder twine at the Kingston penitentiary ?
The Minister of Justice stated in reply that in 1893 there was none purchased: In 1894 the price was $4.38 per cwt. Add 75 cents for manufacturing, and you have 5 cents per pound. In 1894 twine was sold to the farmers for about 6i cents. In 1895 the cost of manilla was $4.13; in 1890. $4.46; in 1897, $4.26. In 1897 the farmers of Canada paid about 13 cents a pound for binder twine. This thing has been going on under the eyes of the government for several years, and why did they not appoint an inspector before to see that the farmers were not being overcharged ? In 1898 it cost $3.71 for pure manilla according to the Minister of Justice. Adding 75 cents for the cost of manufacturing, that would give $4.50 per hundred pounds, yet the farmers paid 13 cents in 1898. In 1899 pure manilla cost $3.39. In 1900 none was produced. We purchased enough in 1899 at $5.39 to do for another year, yet in 1900 it was sold away up from 12 cents to 15 cents. And this government put the blame on the war for the heavy prices they were charging. In 1901 it cost $7.54, and in 1902, $6 per hundred pounds. Adding 75 cents for the manufacturing. that would make $6.75, and giving a cent per pound profit, you have $7.15. Yet, it was sold from 12 to 13 cents. In the


Richard Blain: face of these facts, why do the government not see that the farmers are not obliged to pay two or three times the cost of vhe production of twine. There was something for an inspector to investigate. The government have appointed Mr. Haycock, market gardener, at a salary of $100 per month and travelling expenses, which will amount to another $100 per month, going around the country to see that the manufacturers put a tag on each ball, showing the correct measure. Surely the hon. minister will allow this item to drop and pension off Mr. Haycock, or give him some other work to do.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: The right hon. the leader of the House pleaded yesterday that he was carrying out a moral obligation. Let me draw his attention to this fact. We are told by the Minister of Trade and Commerce that Mr. Haycock has superior qualities and was very eloquent on the stump. We also know the right hon. gentleman once sent a letter to this institution, of which Mr. Haycock was one of the prominent members, endorsing its policy. What policy had the Patrons at that time ? Criticising the extravagance of the government. I remember very well the hon. gentleman, when he was on this side, raising his hand to heaven and denouncing the extravagance of the Tory party in spending $35,000,000 to govern 5,000,000 people. I call upon the right hon. gentleman to carry out now the pledge he made while in opposition to reduce the expenditure of the government $3,000,000 or $4,000,000. Does he think he will reduce it by employing this man at $1,200 per year? The right hon. gentleman must feel very sad when he thinks that this government are not carrying out the principles they advocated in opposition.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I do not think that at all.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Circumstances alter cases. The hon. gentleman has a very satisfactory berth and is willing to throw to the winds all the promises he ever made. All his anxiety is to retain office. I challenge him and the Minister of Trade and Commerce to point to one principle which they advocated on this side that they have not thrown to the winds. They excuse their extravagance in every instance by the plea : 'Oh. we have inherited this from previous governments.' Well, they did not inherit this particular item. What has become of the $60,000,000 which they have frittered away ? They have not inaugurated one scheme which they ever intended to carry out. They have now before the country a scheme which I do not believe they intend to carry out. The only ambition they have is to keep in office as long as they can.


Mr. HEYD.: One of the highest tributes paid to the present government is every allusion to the fact that the patron in-

dustry-an organization that grew into great strength and influence because of the extravagance and iniquity of our hon. friends opposite-has disappeared since the present government came into power.


Mr. BT.: AIN, We should have some explanation as to the qualifications of the gentleman appointed to this position. When you appoint an inspector at a salary of $1,200 and expenses, or equal to $2,500 per year, we naturally expect him to have some qualifications for the position. I would like to ask the hon. minister whether there has been any complaints made to the department that the twine manufactured and imported into this country in years past was not up to the standard, and if the Patrons of Industry or the farmers have made any general demand for the appointment of such an officer.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There have been complaints that the quantities provided by the statute were not furnished to the farmer. As regards the inspector, I think that a gentleman of his intelligence and general ability is quite able to discharge the important and onerous duties assigned to him.


Richard Blain: Does the hon. gentleman say that this officer is really required in the interests of the farmers V


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think it desirable that the farmer should be protected. We should see that he is supplied with the quantity of twine, which the law provides should be contained in each separate spool. It will be found that the farmers of Canada, who are not over and above well regarded in the distribution of patronage, approve as a rule of the appointment of one of their number to see that the provisions of the statutes are carried out for their benefit. Moreover, I have heard from several parties that they were glad to find the government had taken action.


Richard Blain: Can the hon. gentleman present those letters to the House V


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am afraid that many of them are marked confidential.


David Henderson: It is rather a reflection on the Minister of Justice that the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce should employ a man to watch over the government output, and see whether the twine turned out has a tag giving its length. I wonder if the hon. minister has got a report from the manufacturer at Kingston. For it is quite possible, if others put up twine at short length, that it may be done there. But it seems that the government have to appoint farmers to watch their own operations.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: My hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) thinks we need a good deal of watching, and has said so a good many times.


Jabel Robinson: I hope that no reflection is being cast upon the patrons or the farmers, because I was a patron myself. I was elected by the patrons to keep down the expenditure of the government, if I possibly could. They elected me to see that justice was done to every man, if I knew what justice was, and they thought I did. There is just one point I wish to emphasize, and that is this, the manufacturers and the importers of binder twine, knowing that there is an inspector of binder twine will be very careful to make the ball full length. There is that point in favour of the appointment of an inspector of binder twine. The question is whether the right man has been appointed, and whether the appointee should be a gardener, a farmer or something else. I am in favour of farmers for every thing. I think a farmer could be found to be the First Minister for that matter, and more particularly Minister of Trade and Commerce. However, I do not want to make this a matter of guess, but, I want to say that the money paid to the inspector will be well earned if all the manufacturers and importers of binder twine are compelled to see to it that there are 650 feet of binder twine to every pound. I met the inspector of binder twine a few days ago, and he told me he had visited a large number of manufacturers, and watched tlieir operations, and lie found some of them were ' sailing very close to the wind ' whatever that means. That was his language, and I infer that he meant that they were hardly giving the farmers justice. I said-and put emphasis on what I said- ' Now, Sir, your reputation is at stake ; and if you find any man not doing his duty and not giving us fair measure, bring him to justice.' He said he would. I am not one of those who cavil and think the office of binder twine inspector is a useless one. If the inspector does his * duty fairly, his salary will be well earned, and I hope the minister will see to it that the inspector does his duty. .
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS.



[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 152) to incorporate the Southern Central Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Riley.
Bill (No. 231) to confer on the Commissioner of Patents certain powers for the
[Stage Direction]
relief of the Keller Heater Company of Canada, Limited.-Mr. Mclsaac.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (180) to incorporate the Prince Edward Island Ferry Company.-Mr. Emmerson.
On section 14,
Mr. HACKETT.: This is an entirely different Bill from the one that was before the committee yesterday, and I would like to ask that the matter stand over to allow us an opportunity to consider it. Several clauses have been introduced that were not before the committee.


Mr. MACKINNON.: The clauses referred to were before the committee yesterday. The only distinction between the Bill now and the Bill as it was introduced at the beginning of the session, is that the bond issue is now made to apply to steamship companies, and it was agreed to by the committee yesterday. The hon. gentleman may not have observed it, but that is the case. The bond issue was to apply to the railway company for the purchase or construction of the railroad, and there were separate clauses added for any steamship companies that were bought. These are the general clauses that are in all the statutes relating to steamship company Bills.


David Henderson: I think the request of the hon. member for West Prince (Mr. Ilackett) is a very reasonable one. The affair occurred in this way. Considerable change had to be made in the Bill inasmuch as it was practically made a charter for the steamship company. It was arranged that the chairman, I think, and the clerk of the committee were to introduce certain clauses in order to get the Bill into proper shape. I think it is quite reasonable that the hon. member who is interested in this Bill should have an opportunity of looking over it before it receives its final leading. It will certainly do no harm, and it will satisfy the hon. gentleman that he has done his duty.


Donald Alexander Mackinnon: I have no objection to it standing over, but I wish to correct the hon. gentleman; the Bill passed the Railway Committee yesterday. However, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 158) respecting the St. ChrysostSme Railway Company.-Mr. Brown.
Robert Laird Borden: How did we get back to this Bill ?


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: The promotor was not present when it was called, and it was called again.


Jabel Robinson: 


Robert Laird Borden: This has been done twice to-night, and it should not be done as a matter of course. I have not the slightest objection to it being done, but it should be done in the regular way, and the permission of the House asked.


Peter Macdonald: You are perfectly right.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I have never heard of it being objected to, and it often has occurred. If objection is taken the order can be discharged.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not the slightest objection, but I say it should not be done as a matter of course, and without calling the attention of the House to it.


Peter Macdonald: We will do it in future.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Inspection of binder twine, $2,500.
['The resolution stands on the Notice paper, and its formal stage will be taken on Monday.']
Richard Blain: When the committee rose at six o'clock the h'on. minister was to give us a report oS the inspector.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The deputy informs me that he is not in a position to produce the information to-night. There is no formal report, though there are some letters from the inspector.


Richard Blain: I understand that the binder twine factories are scattered all over Canada. For instance, there is one in Brandon, Man. Does the minister think it is possible for one man to inspect all the binder twine in this country, if it is necessary to have it inspected at all ? If it is necessary, would it not be better to have an inspector paid a small salary and located in each town or city where there is a manufacturing establishment, so that the inspection would be an inspection in fact as well as in appointment ? The inspector should be there when the factory is in operation, which isi only a short period in the whole twelve months.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, the manufacture of binder twine goes on for a very considerable time throughout the whole year.


Richard Blain: There are a great many months in the year when the binder twine factories are not in operation at all. I think my hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. Heyd) will bear me out in that statement. The factory in Brandon is not in operation more than six months out of the twelve. I repeat, if the department has decided that it is necessary to have an inspection, would it not be better to appoint a man where the factory is and have the twine properly Inspected ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Minister of Trade and Commerce thought that as a beginning one officer might do a large amount of inspection. I fancy that the value of an appointment of this character is not so much for the cure of the evil as for the prevention of the evil. The hon. member for West Elgin (Mr. Robinson) stated this afternoon that the knowledge that there was such an officer, who might come in and inspect at any moment, would have an excellent effect on any manufacturer or dealer. If we adopted the policy suggested by the hon. member for Peel, it would not only involve the appointment of an inspector for each factory, but one in each town where there is a dealer. It may be that the method of inspection is not as broad ns it should be. We shall have to learn by experience how far it may be necessary to extend it.


Richard Blain: Has the binder twine imported into this country to have the same number of feet to the pound as that manufactured in Canada ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, the regulation applies to the imported article as well as the manufactured article.


George Taylor: Where is the great bulk of the twine imported into Canada manufactured ?	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I cannot tell the hon. gentleman. Probably 'lie is aware himself.


George Taylor: I am. The hon. Minister of Justice knows that we have on the statute-books a law prohibiting the importation into Canada of any article made in the prisons of the United States, and I believe that from one-half to two-thirds of the binder twine imported into Canada is manufactured at the Stillwater prison, and Is sold to agents at the big binder twine establishments in Minneapolis and St. Paul, and by them exported to Canada.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Have you any evidence to that effect ?


George Taylor: I have information to that effect which I believe to be true.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Convince us by giving us the information.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If my hon. friend has that information in a form that permits it to be used, he as a friend and protector of the manufacturers of Canada has been doing them a great injustice in keeping it to himself, because he is well aware that if he placed that information at the disposal of the Minister of Justice every pound of that binder twine would be prohibited from coming into Canada at all. I am afraid my hon. friend is not as good a protectionist as he professes to be.


George Taylor: I came into possession of the information within the last six hours,
and as soon as I received it I addressed the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice, whose duty it is to see that the law is enforced. If the hou. gentleman inquires, he will find that there is a large quantity of binder twine made in the Stillwater prison, and if he traces that product, lie will find that a great proportion of it is landed in Canada.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: But my hon. friend, in justice to himself, should not be content with a mere statement in parliament. That statement is of course entitled to respect, but after all it is not a basis for action. If he has that information. I think he should place it in possession of the Minister of Customs in such a way as to enable him to follow it up.


Samuel Hughes: What is this army of inspectors for ? What is the armv of customs officials for if not to attend to cases of this kind ? Why play the bluff game of asking my hon. friend from Leeds to inform the Minister of Customs. What is this army of heelers appointed for except to trace the binder twine that is imported and find out where it was made ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am sorry that the hon. member for Victoria characterizes the customs officials as an army of heelers.


Samuel Hughes: Now it is time to drop a tear.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It Is time to drop a tear ; but the hon. gentleman cannot refer to an army of inspectors of binder twine, because there is only one, though of course sometimes one is a host in himself.


Samuel Hughes: Is that all ? I thought there were several. I apologize ; I thought there was an army, and that this last one was the chief of the outfit. I trust that the minister will see that this new officer attends to his duty and traces this prison-made binder twine, wherever it comes from, and sees that it does not come into Canada.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: It seems a curious thing that the binder twine makers have sent deputations down here and told the government the difficulties under which they laboured, and yet not a single representative of the binder twine makers ever made that statement to the government : and to assert that the International Harvester Company and the Plymouth Company, who sell 90 percent of the twine sold in the United States, would be guilty of palming off on their customers either on this side or on the other side prison-made twine, is something that the hon. gentleman himself does not believe. If the statement which the hon. gentleman now makes is true, the men who make the binder twine would be aware of it and would have brought it to the attention of the government long ago.


George Taylor: Is not the twine made in the prison as good as that made in the factory outside? Do they not turn out as good binder twine in the prison at Kingston as in the city of Brantford ? In the United States the prison manufacture is probably the best twine turned out in that country. Where is it sold ? It must compete with the other twine manufactured in the United States, and I am informed that the whole outfit of the American prison goes into the hands of gentlemen who supply the trade in Canada.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The trade in Canada is supplied by the International and Plymouth people.


George Taylor: They do not make it all.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: They make 90 per cent of all that is used in the United States and send 16,000,000 pounds to Canada. It is not likely that a concern of that importance would sully its reputation by palming off prison-made twine, even if it were as good as that made in the factory, which it is not. No factory in Canada would palm off prison-made twine for its own.


George Taylor: All I ask the hon. Minister of Customs to do is to put a detective to work and investigate and he will find my statement correct.


Mr. THOMSON (Grey).: I would not like to say that all the officials in the Customs Department are heelers, but there is one thing I am sure about, and that is that the gentleman who is receiving this appointment is a political heeler. He has been active from place to place in every byelection held in recent years.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: What do you mean by heeler ?


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: A man who seems to make his living by stumping in constituencies and doing such work as his party requires. This gentleman spent nearly a month in North Grey during my by-election, and now he is apparently receiving his reward. I must say that I do not think he was any particular advantage to the Liberal party, but rather a source of strength to the Conservative party, and I would like our hon. friends opposite to send out that class of heelers at every election. Why should he receive a government appointment worth $2,500 ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The vote is for the inspection of binder twine, $2,500. If he does not receive it in salary, he will receive it in some other way. Here is a man who is nothing but a political heeler and has been so for years, then he is placed in charge of certain government work, while officials who have been in the service for years are pressing the government to pay them $000 or $700, and are unable to do so. What are this man's duties ?


Charles Bernhard Heyd: 


George Taylor: To draw bis salary ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My hon. colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, fully explained that this afternoon. Was my hon. friend present ?


Samuel Hughes: Perhaps both could not tell the same story.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That is a good reason why I should not tell any.
I understood my hon. colleague to have explained that the object was to guarantee to the farmers that each of these parcels of binder twine contains the quantity it should contain.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: How is he to make this inspection? There is a tag on each ball giving the contents, so many feet to the pound. Do you mean to tell me that this inspector is going to measure each of these balls of twine ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Not all of them.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: He will, I presume, go into a factory and measure one ball and certify that it is 650 feet long. If he does not measure it, how will he inspect it ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: He will weigh it.*


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: These packages may weigh two or three pounds each and may be measured and stamped. It seems to me that this is another case of providing for friends of the government for whom they can find no other place.


Mr. RICHARDSON.: What are the special qualifications of this official ? He may be a politician and not have qualifications for the office to which he has been appointed.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I was fortunate enough to be present ten minutes before recess and heard my hon. colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, say that this man was very intelligent and capable of doing the work assigned him, and he thought the farmers would be pleased to have one of their own appointed to this position.


Robert Lorne Richardson: One would suppose that the gentleman appointed to an office of this kind would be an expert, should know how to discern what is sisal and what manilla, of what is the substance the binder twine is composed of. It may be a simple thing to take a ball of seven yards of twine and ascertain by weighing how much is in the ball. Anybody could qualify to do that in half an hour's experience. But to understand what the substances are that the binder twine is made of would require a man of considerable experience. The committee would like to know the qualifications of this man ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: He is not a manufacturer of twine.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I see the hon. Minister of Justice there. It appears to me that the manufacture of binder twine, as carried on in the Kingston penitentiary, has not been satisfactory to the people. The price of twine during recent years has been very high, and the farmers have complained very much. I notice by the Auditor General's Report that twine which the Minister of Justice said cost 6 cents per pound, was sold to the farmers at 104 cents. That would appear an unreasonable profit. Twine imported into the country, made of pure manilla, is sold at from 10 to 15 cents a pound, but this is a mixed manilla. If it only costs 6 cents per pound, why is the farmer charged 10J cents ? When the farmers refused to pay that price, it remained on his hands, and later in the season he could sell it at 5J cents to some of the government jobbers.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is very good of the hon. gentleman to give me an opportunity of explaining the discrepancy. It would be convenient for me, indeed, if the hon. gentleman would attend when the estimates are under consideration. If he will kindly refer to ' Hansard,' I have not the number of the page under my hand, but I will be able to find it and give it to him-he will learn all the details. I gave all the details of cost of twine and the reason why we were hot able to dispose of the twine during the season required and had to keep it over. He will get the information and more if he will kindly refer to the ' Hansard ' report of the debate which took place when he did not happen to be in the House.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I have the Auditor General's Report for 1902, and I find that at page M-47 it is noted that the government sold 6,783 pounds of mixed manilla, at 10J cents per pound. And the hon. minister stated early in the session that it cost 6 cents per pound.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not accept the statement of the hon. gentleman.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: I will look it up in ' Hansard.'


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: If the hon. gentleman will do so, he will then be in a position to give some information to the House.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Then, the department sold 10,000 pounds at 101 cents, and 220,000 pounds at 5 1-10 cents, or less than half the money. It would seem to me that the farmer is being imposed upon. This institution was established in the Central Prison to regulate the price, so that the farmer might not be imposed upon by any combination in this country or any other. The local government established 244
a similar institution in the Central prison, for the same purpose. And, as my hon. friend from South Brant (Mr. Heyd) is here, I may say that the Farmers' Binder Twine Company was established for the same purpose, yet, that hon. gentleman has stated in his place that that concern made no less than 240 per cent in three years, besides being able to make great improvements in their plant. The Kingston penitentiary was making twine for 6 cents per pound and charging the farmer 10J cents per pound, the same prices that were being charged by American firms selling the goods here. There seems to have been some understanding among the manufacturers to charge the farmer more than is fair, for-


Peter Macdonald: I am afraid the committee is wandering away from the point under discussion. We are not discussing the general question of the manufacture of binder twine, but the propriety of appointing an inspector to see to the proper measurement of the twine. I hope the members of the committee will not enter upon irrelevant discussion.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The only reason I adverted to this question was that the Minister of Justice was not present when-this was brought up.


Mr. HOLMES.: The hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson), was not present.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: How do you know V


Robert Holmes: I was here.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Well, I was not lecturing in the Young Men's Christian Association anyway.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am afraid there is no danger of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Thomson, Grey) having any opportunity to do that.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: The Minister of Justice was not in his place, and the Minister of Finance took note of that and apologized for his colleague's absence. But, if we are not allowed to discuss the question of manufacture, there is still a good deal to say as regards the appointment of this inspector, and I must say that I will support a resolution to strike out this amount. It is simply making an office for a party heeler. The service can be performed for much less money than the allowance given to Mr. Haycock. If other appointments under the government are made in the same way as this, it is no wonder that the expenditure of this country rises to such an enormous sum.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I could understand if such an appointment could be useful at all, that it might be made useful by the appointment of some man who had had experience in handling or manufacturing binder twine. But Mr. Haycock's qualifications are of an altogether different char-



[Stage Direction]
acter. This is simply the creation of an office for the benefit of Mr. Haycock. He has qualifications, but they are rather of a kind that are useful in a by-election. But nothing I have ever heard or read about him would lead me to believe that he has any qualification for this office. The name might suggest a knowledge of grasses, and so, of cordage of some kinds, but there is nothing in a name in this case. This office is useless to anybody but Mr. Haycock himself, and the money paid to him could be devoted to some useful pui'pose.
Richard Blain: When was the Act passed making it necessary for the manufacturer to put a tag upon each ball giving the number of yards per pound ? Can the hon. minister read us that clause V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I cannot point to the particular Act, it was passed some years ago.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: If that is all the law provides, what is the use of this inspector ? If the law only requires that the tag shall be put upon the binder twine, why should this inspector be saddled upon the people ? What are his duties ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not think the farmer is so desperately anxious to know that the tag is on, but what he wants to know is that the quantity corresponds with the tag.


Thomas Inkerman Thomson: Then, all that this inspector will do is to test one ball. And for this you employ him for the whole year at $2,500 of public money.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In any case where inspection takes place, I imagine every package is not inspected. When a number of parcels are sent through the customs house the officers do not inspect every one, but they sample them. I sui>
pose the same will be done by this inspector.


George Taylor: As I understand the Act, it makes no provision for an inspector. It simply provides that every manufacturer shall put a tag upon his products stating the number of feet in each ball. In that case, every farmer can be his own inspector; and if he finds that the twine does not meet the requirements of the law he can set the law in motion to have the penalty enforced. When he buys a ball of twine that weighs what the Act calls for and has the number of feet in it required by the law, the farmer can be his own inspector, and there is no need of paying $2,500 in salary and expenses to Mr. Haycock to make the inspection, because he has no more effect on the production of binder twine than if he remained at home attending to his market gardening. The last time I met Mr. Haycock was at a provincial election where he was speaking in the interest of the Reform candidate


Robert Lorne Richardson: against my friend Mr. Gallagher, who was the candidate for Frontenac in the local election. I was speaking on behalf of my friendi Mr. Gallagher, and I drew attention to the fact that the last time I met Mr. Haycock was at a Dominion by-election, when he had the Auditor General's Report in one hand and a can of Australian mutton in the other, pointing out to the farmers the iniquities of the late Conservative government, and showing by the Auditor General's Report that they had bought so many jack knives, so many envelopes, so many sponges, and a lot of little things like that, reading them out of the Auditor General's Report and then holding up the can of mutton.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That shows he can read.
Mr. TAYLOR Oh, yes. He served his time iu the provincial legislature, and was appointed leader of the Patron party that the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Postmaster General created. They created this Patron party for the purpose of helping their elections and splitting up the Conservative party. Mr. Currie was another leader. Mr. Currie is appointed immigra-tiou agent now over in the United States, drawing another $2,500 a year. I would suggest to the minister that Mr. Currie be authorized to go over and see if the binder twine that is being imported into Canada is not made in prisons. They wanted to give him a job. There is a third one. Mr. Lockie Wilson, that they have not provided for yet. He is the third gentleman who was a leader of the great Patron party. Two of them are provided for at a large salary and they have nothing to do. My hon. friend can turn up the Auditor General's Report and find that Mr. Currie, who was a leader of the Patron party in the west, is now in the employ of the government over in the United States, riding around in Pullman cars at great expense to the country, and drawing a big salary besides. Mr. Haycock is provided for at a salary of $1,200, and $1,300 for travelling expenses and hotel bills, for the balance of the year. My hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. Heyd) who is interested in the binder twine establishment up there, knows that every word that I am saying is correct, and that there is no more necessity for an inspector of binder twine than there is for a dozen inspectors, one for each factory.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: I am afraid our friends are not so hostile to the position of au inspector as they are to the gentleman who happens to fill it. I just wondered to myself whether if Mr. Haycock had been busying himself in the interest of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Taylor) and his friend Mr. Gallagher, we would have heard one word of objection to the creation of this office.


An hon. MEMBER.: We have heard it from you.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: I do not think so. The mere fact that the office happens to be filled by Mr. Haycock is the reason why all this objection has been urged. Had it been filled by a good, active Conservative organizer we would not have heard a whimper from the other side. '


Robert Lorne Richardson: It really does appear from this discussion that this is an entirely unnecessary office. Any farmer going into a store to buy twine and looking at the tag and seeing how many feet to the pound are stated to be in the ball, can demonstrate that to his own satisfaction and can prove it to the dealer at once. It will not take him more than a minute to do it. He can take a few yards and then weigh it and find out at once whether it comes up to the standard which is stated by the tag upon the ball. Anybody is qualified to do that. The only other object of the inspection of binder twine is to find out whether it contains the right proportion of manilla and sisal. If it makes no provision for that, then the office is entirely useless. If Mr. Haycock must have a positiofi, I would suggest, after hearing [DOT] the discussion the other night in regard to the killing of chickens, that probably Mr. Haycock understands this business, and the government could give him a job of going around and teaching the farmers how to kill chickens.


Richard Blain: I think the minister should give the committee the Act under which this gentleman is appointed. There was a special Inspection Act for binder twine, passed either in the session of 1901 or 1902. I would have thought that if the government intended to appoint an inspector, some provision would have been made for it in the Act. I do not think the acting minister would say that there has been any demand from any section of the farmers or of the merchants selling binder twine, for an inspector to be appointed. I am quite sure the office is an unnecessary one. I think, under the law, there is a penalty for the Infringement of its provisions. This looks to me like an after-thought on the part of the government. The gentleman no doubt was pressing for some appointment, and this position seems to have been created for him. I am not opposed to the inspection of binder twine, but I think if it is to be inspected some better system should be adopted. I am sure it is impossible for one gentleman to inspect all the binder twine that is produced and imported into this country. The minister must be aware that a large quantity of binder twine is imported into western Canada and the province of Manitoba. There is some manufactured in Manitoba, but a very large quantity is imported.


Robert Holmes: The argument of some lion, gentlemen opposite is to the effect that because there is a certain law passed that does not require an inspector to be ap-24U
pointed, therefore no inspector is required. We have on the statute-book at the present time a law requiring that weights and measures should be of a certain standard size. According to their argument now no inspector is required to see that that law is enforced. I suggest that they turn then-guns for the time being on the gentleman who happens to occupy the position of inspector of weights and measures for western Ontario, who happens to be a good Conservative, retained in his office by the present administration. Now, if their argument is of any force that because there is a law on the statute-book requiring weights and measures to be of a certain standard size, they do not require to be inspected, and therefore they would do away with the services of that inspector, as they are proposing to do away with the services of Mr. Haycock ; by the same process of reasoning, all the license inspectors should be dismissed-I know in their opinion they should be anyhow. But it is illegal to sell liquor after certain hours, it is illegal to-day to do certain things in connection with the hotel business.
It is necessary that an inspector shall be appointed to see that the Act is enforced and I think the same thing holds good in reference to the appointment of an inspector of binder twine. I do not think it comes with very good grace particularly from our hon. friends opposite to make use of the arguments which they do against the appointment of Mr. Haycock. What is Mr. Haycock's offence in their eyes ?-simply that he has taken an active part in political campaigning. He has gone out and done stumping-to use a common phrase-in different parts of the country. If that is a serious offence, then, our Conservative friends themselves have a great many heelers among their numbers, because I know there were some of them in the riding of the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson). I think their argument is a very weak one and that it comes with bad grace from a party who, while in power, were continually appointing persons who had been political heelers to various offices within the gift of the government. I think the fact that a man has a certain amount of ability qualifying him to take part in a political campaign should not stand in the way' of his getting political preferment. Besides that, Mr. Haycock, whatever his offences may have been, is a practical farmer. He may have been the representative of the Patron party, as he was no doubt, but he is a practical farmer, he knows a great deal about the binder twine question, and I think the people generally would approve of his appointment and endorse the government for having placed him in that position.


Mr. BARKER.: Was Mr. Haycock appointed chief inspector or an inspector as mentioned here ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The deputy minister will be here in a moment and I will be able to give the hon. gentleman an answer. As far as I know there is only one inspector, but whether he is designated chief or otherwise at the moment I cannot answer.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria).: Generally when the term ' chief inspector ' is used there are deputies under him, but in this case it would appear that there is only the inspector himself.


Samuel Barker: I have 'no doubt that is so. As the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Ross, Victoria) says he is an inspector and I would therefore ask the hon. Minister of Finance for what division he has been appointed ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am sorry I cannot give the hon. gentleman the information.


Samuel Barker: I suppose we must ask that of the deputy ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There was a pretty full discussion of this item before recess and I thought the right lion. Minister of Trade and Commerce had satisfied the laudable desire of every hon. gentleman opposite for information, and that all I would have to do would be to call the item and it would be carried at once. I am amazed that it should not pass.


Samuel Barker: I am amazed that the hon. gentleman does not know more about it.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not pretend to know very much about it.


Samuel Barker: In looking at the statute I find that the government, when appointing an inspector, are required to designate the" district for which he aets. When a chief inspector is appointed he is appointed for the whole province, it is true, but when a division superintendent, who is called ordinarily an inspector, is appointed, he is appointed, apparently under the statute as follows :
The Governor in Council may from time to time, designate the several cities, ceunties, towns and other places or inspection divisions in Canada, at and for which respectively it is expedient to appoint inspectors.
I presume that the hon. Minister of Fin-anc, looking over this matter, has considered whether Mr. Haycock should be an inspector of a particular division or not and if he is appointed simply as an ordinary inspector for a division, a particular county or a number of counties, or for a particular city, or district, the fact should be designated by the Order in Council. I think we are entitled to the information, because, as far as I see there is about as much foundation for the appointment of this particular inspector as an inspector of binder twine as Mr. BARKER.
if he were appointed as an inspector of haycocks.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is surely reasonable to ask what division he is going to act in 1


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The whole includes different parts.


Samuel Barker: No, the statute clearly says that there shall be an inspector for a particular district and a chief inspector over the inspectors. I would like to know whether Mr. Haycock is an inspector of inspectors or an inspector of binder twine.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The statute may enable us to appoint a great many inspectors, and an inspector of inspectors, but as an economical and businesslike government we do not deem it necessary to make any more appointments than the public interest demands. If it is found that Mr. Haycock can cover all the ground then it will not be necessary to put the country to the expense of a second appointment.


Samuel Barker: Is he the only one ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: He is the only one up to date. He has only been appointed within two months.


Samuel Barker: You do not know but that you will want more.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is coming on towards harvest time. Mr. Haycock is a man highly respected by the class who use binder twine. For many years he enjoyed the confidence of the- farming community as representing their views upon public matters. I have no doubt he still enjoys that confidence and he is particularly qualified in so far as a knowledge of the farming community goes to guard their interests in a matter of this kind. However, as hon. gentlemen opposite are complaining we have not appointed enough we will bear that in mind, and if, after the harvest season has gone by, experience shows that the appointment has been productive of good and if we are satisfied that the public interest calls for an additional appointment we will have to do our duty, but do not blame us because we have not rushed in and appointed a whole army of officers at once. I believe an hon. gentleman earlier in the discussion called one an army. We have not gone that far yet.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. Minister of Finance explained that he is a whole host in himself.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No doubt he is a very capable man.


Samuel Barker: The explanation of the hon. Postmaster General shows that he has not read the Act.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes, I have.


Samuel Barker: The Act empowers the Governor General in Council to appoint inspectors for certain divisions and presumably the Governor General in Council .will authorize the appointment of inspectors where they may be necessary. To-day there may be an inspector required in Brantford. Possibly such an inspector was very much required when the manufactory there was making 240 per cent profit on its business. It would have been a very proper thing for the Governor General in Council to appoint an inspector for that district and for different places where it might have been found necessary to appoint inspectors. But, the government when they had appointed half a dozen or more Haycocks, or inspectors throughout the country might have found iti necessary to appoint a general inspector to overlook the whole of these, and that is provided for, but the hon. gentlemen have begun with a general inspector and if he should be the only one that begins the work then he should be placed where his inspection is required to be done. If the hon. Postmaster General had read the Act he would have seen that the whole spirit of the Act was that the government should begin at the districts where the inspection is "required and after they had provided for a number of districts they ought to have appointed a general inspector. The very term implies that he is an inspector of inspectors. They have begun with a general inspector who has one general district of inspection.


Richard Blain: Would the hon. minister tell us what are the duties of this inspector and whether his instructions are in writing ? It is not unfair to ask that we should have a copy of that.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am informed that when he was appointed he received instructions, but I did not imagine the question would be asked. I shall be glad at a later stage to produce this valuable information.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is very important, because I understood from the Postmaster General that this is only the first of a series of similar appointments.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: There is no such inference to be drawn from my remarks. We propose to appoint one inspector, and if it is found that one is not sufficient for the work, we intend to appoint more, but gentlemen opposite are endeavouring to drive us into making a large number of appointments. We are a government of economy; that is one of our strong cards ; we enjoy the confidence of the country because of that, and we intend to stand by that principle. The only thing that will drive us from it will be a due regard to the public interest, and if the public interest demands two inspectors, we will appoint them. The hon. gentleman from Hamilton desires us to put on frills before
we have the fabric and to appoint an inspector of inspectors. What we are doing now is the appointing of an inspector of binder twine.


Samuel Barker: The Act says you must designate a district.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The
Act says :
The Governor in Council may from time to time designate the several cities, counties, towns and other


Edward Frederick Clarke: Hear, hear, that is the whole contention.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The
hon. gentleman has a habit of interrupting when something is being said or read. If he will have the kindness not to interrupt me until I read two lines he can interrupt at the end of the third line:
The Governor in Council may from time to time designate the several cities, counties, towns and other places or inspection divisions in Canada.
The statute does not say we ' must ' do it. This Act was passed by our opponents, and does the hon. gentleman say that it was intended to force the government to divide the country into districts and appoint inspectors That has not been done in a single case.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Then it is all wrong.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Does the hon. gentleman from Hamilton say that all Canada is to be divided into inspection districts for every article mentioned in the statute ?


Samuel Barker: The only authority to appoint an inspector is under this Act, and the Act says that until you designate districts you cannot appoint inspectors. Let me ask the minister whether a board of examiners has certified that this gentleman is a fit and proper person to conduct this inspection. The Act requires that he should obtain a certificate from a board of examiners of certain boards of trade. Has that been obtained ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Let us stick to one point at a time. This Act has been in force since 1896, and I am informed by the deputy minister that in no instance has such an interpretation been placed upon the Act as the hon. gentleman now puts on it. There is only one case in which there is a district set apart for inspection and that is in the case of grain. This Act deals with the inspection of flour, meal, wheat, beef, pork, leather, fish oil, hides, &c., and by the Act of 1901, binder twine is added to the list. Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. Barker), say that all the appointments. since this Act became law are illegal ?


Samuel Barker: I did not say that.


* COMMONS
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Then he argues that they are illegal when made by the Liberals but not illegal when made by the Conservatives.


Samuel Barker: The Act requires that your inspector should get a certificate from a certain board of examiners.
The POSTMASTER GENERAL Have you abandoned your other argument ?


Samuel Barker: No.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Either that or you are defeated.


Samuel Barker: Not at all. Under this statute the first step of the government is to name a district in which the inspector is required, and the next step is to obtain a certificate from a proper authority that the person to be appointed is competent to fulfil his duties. Even this very government required a board of trade of which I was president to send certificates that certain persons were competent when they were to be appointed as inspectors.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: This matter is one of great seriousness. I listened to the scientific part of the debate with great pleasure, but now there is a nice legal question lying at the bottom of the appointments that are to be made. I undertake to say that it is a local jurisdiction that has been created by this statute, and it is elementary law that a local jurisdiction must be definite and distinct before an officer can exercise any authority under that jurisdiction. My hon. friend is a lawyer. Let him take the case of a justice of the peace who is appointed for a city or county. He cannot act for one moment until the territory for which he is appointed is defined. If he did, every act he performed would be without autho-irty, and he would be liable for an action. The point my learned friend has made is quite clear. The Act says that ' such inspector shall hold office during pleasure, and shall act within such local limits as the Governor in Council assigns to him.' How does my hon. friend, who, I understand, is a lawyer, in name at any rate, get over such plain and distinct language 1 My learned friend takes a very illogical position in arguing that as the government were only going to appoint one inspector, there was no necessity of assigning local limits. If you only wanted to appoint one inspector for the province of Ontario, the proper course would have been to pass your Order in Council declaring the province of Ontario to be one district. If you want to appoint a man for a county or a city, you must first plot out your county or city, and declare that that is the territory and these are the local limits in which you desise the inspector to act; and then he would have jurisdiction to act within those limits. This inspector can be kicked out of every store in Ontario ; and you do not want the gov-Mr. BARKER.
eminent to send unauthorized men to act as inspectors and to run the risk of being put out. If such a man were put out, the Minister of Labour would be put out at the same time, because his agent is the minister himself in law: and how sorry I would feel if any indignity were put upon the Minister of Labour. A gentleman of his commanding stature ought not disrespectfully to be put out of any place in this country. But if he persists in acting in the face of the law so plainly pointed out by my hon. friend from Hamilton, who is no doubt a very careful lawyer, he has only himself to blame. But the next difficulty my hon. friend pointed out was that you have two classes of men to appoint. You have the familiar illustration of the stipendiary magistrate and the justice of the peace. You must define in your commission whether you want to appoint a stipendiary magistrate or a justice of the peace. They are officers with different jurisdictions, and you must first define your territory and then appoint your officer. So in this case you must state the jurisdiction you expect your officer to exercise, whether that of local inspector or inspector in chief. These are such elementary principles in law that I thought the hon. gentleman would have caught on at once, and would have said : ' My duties as Minister of Labour have so occupied my attention that I have completely overlooked this particular matter.' I should have thought he would have thanked the astute counsel from Hamilton for having suggested so plain a matter to him. The next point raised by the hon. member for Hamilton was that you cannot appoint a sub-officer unless you have a chief. However, I will not debate that. There may be such a thing as appointing an inferior officer without appointing a superior. It would seem an extraordinary thing to appoint a chief without a sub, and equally extraordinary to appoint a sub without a chief. Ex necessitate the hon. gentleman appears to be wrong. But even if he got past all these difficulties, there is the certificate. I can understand that this law was very wisely framed. It anticipated the hon. gentlemen opposite coming into office at some time, and therefore it should be provided that this man should be examined as to his competency before he should be appointed. On these three points, I have no doubt that the hon. minister as a lawyer will say at once, ' peccavi.'


Samuel Barker: I do not think you can pass this item, because it is contrary to law.


Mr. FRASER.: We will take chances.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: We will not allow you. We do not want you to get into a law suit.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is a serious matter if it was our duty to appoint an army of inspectors', and we have neglected to do so; but for the present our

sense of economy would not permit us to appoint more tlian one. There is a great deal to be said for the bon. gentleman's argument that we are obliged to appoint a large number of inspectors; but do not ask us to commit ourselves to such a policy too early.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That is not the point of my argument. You could not appoint anybody under the present state of the law.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That shows how the opposition are not consistent with one another. The hon. member for Hamilton says we cannot only appoint an inspector, but an inspector of inspectors, and keep on appointing them.


Samuel Barker: Will the hon. gentleman allow me? I said you can appoint an inspector and a chief inspector, provided you follow the provisions of the Act, and I say that you have not followed the provisions of the Act.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The hon. member for Colchester says we cannot appoint anybody.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Not until you plot the territory.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Well, suppose we do plot the territory and appoint a large army ?
' Mr. GOURLEY. But you cannot appoint anybody until you plot the territory.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We will take that into consideration. We may make further appointments, but we do not think it is necessary at present. I do not like to throw down a valuable suggestion like that.


Samuel Barker: Does the hon. gentleman seriously tell us that there has been any certificate from the body required to give a certificate under this statute? Does he tell us that this gentleman who is to be appointed is a proper person to be appointed under the statute ? Under the statute the government have no right to make such an appointment at all, and we object to it on that ground.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Surely there must be some satisfactory answer given to the statement of the hon. member for Hamilton, if he has stated the law correctly. M e assume a certain amount of responsibility for this appointment, and we want to know the fact.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think we may regard the matter in a broader view thap has been suggested here. I have not seen the appointment, nor do I know what principles have been observed in regard to it. The requirements of the statute may have been complied with or they may not, but the appointment itself could be made if there were no statute, the only question would be what powers the inspector would have. He cannot discharge any
duty unless authorized to do so. But if in a general and informal way the government appoints this man to discharge certain duties and the twine manufacturer permits him to exercise those duties, and if that meets the requirements of the case, why put the country to the expense of the appointment of a large number.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That would not follow.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes it would. You could not have a large number of inspectors without putting the' country to a great expense. Suppose there were no statute at all and the government appointed a man to do certain work and parliament voted the money to pay him, and the manufacturers permitted him to inspect, the same end is obtained as by going to the expensive process urged upon us. If the law is that no inspector can be appointed for more than a limited territory and this whole Dominion is to be divided up into inspectorates, involving very large expenditure, it seems to me that the Act ought to be amended and made more in harmony with economy.


Samuel Barker: The way to amend an Aet of parliament is not by a resolution in the estimates. The Act of parliament requires a certain procedure before such an inspector as the one now proposed, may be appointed. The hon. gentleman says that the government may appoint certain officers; but when an Act of parliament intervenes, declaring how an officer is to be appointed, it does not rest with the government to appoint him in some other way. I do not think any hon. gentleman on the government benches would controvert that position. This is not a question of giving Mr. Haycock or any other gentleman a government allowance. This is a question of inspecting a certain matter of trade in this country. There are a number of articles that have to be inspected. There is the article of hides. It is very important that the inspector of hides should be competent, and it is impossible to get a man appointed inspector unless he undergoes a certain examination and obtains a certificate from a particular body that he is competent. Hon. gentlemen know that upon the certificates of such officers trade goes on throughout the Dominion. The certificate of an inspector such as the one to be appointed, is accepted in all the markets of the country. The inspector of hides at Hamilton gives certificates, which are accepted at Montreal, Quebec and Boston, as those of a person qualified for the work. People all over the United States and Canada deal to the extent of thousands of dollars upon that certificate. If the government can appoint Mr. Haycock without a certificate of competency, they might also appoint in the same way an inspector of hides and wheat and other articles, and thus disturb the trade of the whole country. The

statute provides that the inspector must have a certificate and we object to any resolution authorizing payment to any person who is not appointed according to the statute.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: There will be great *difficulty in connection with this man. He will have important duties to perform, and if properly appointed his authority would be effective and valid, but if not, he will be simply a trespasser and be liable to be sued for trespass, and every body who sent him would be responsible. If not properly appointed, he could not act as an officer of Canada, he would be a pseudo officer, and have no authority at all. If it be the case that the stamp of our inspector of hides is received in Boston or in Montreal as official, is it not most important that the appointments of other inspectors should be perfectly regular ? What a scandal would it not be to allow a man to give an official character and market value to a hide and then have his appointment declared null and void. If the department has not observed the statute strictly, it is time it should do so. When an officer is properly appointed his district is prescribed and just as in the case of a judge. Imagine a judge being appointed and the territory of his jurisdiction not defined. The limits of this man's jurisdiction must be as strictly defined as those in which a judge exercises jurisdiction. If this man's territory be not defined, he can exercise no jurisdiction, and if his territory be defined he can only act within that territory, and any act outside it would be void and the department be responsible. We want to know whether this man's commission defines the territory in which he must act. The second point which my hon. friend from Hamilton made is that a deputy inspector shall be appointed only from among duly qualified persons. There may be, therefore, but very few people who may be appointed. The appointment is subject to extraordinary limitations. It is limited to very few political heelers, if men of that class are not wholly excluded.
I think a man who could get an appointment under this statute would not be likely to be much of a political heeler. Perhaps he might be a divinity student, or a Ph. D., or an LL. D. This Act confines the appointment to ' qualified ' persons. What that qualification is, I am at a loss to understand. And perhaps this should be submitted to the Supreme Court to get a judicial interpretation of the statute. The minister must understand it. I can only regard it with the eye of the student of language, and so regarding it I say that mountains of difficulty; difficulties alpine in their character surround the minister or the legal adviser of the department In connection with this question. Talk about standing on thin ice. Why, there is no ice here at all. A man would be in the water up to his neck


Samuel Barker: when he attempts to make an appointment under this statute. It provides that ' they and their deputy inspectors shall be appointed only from among duly qualified persons.' I cannot understand what qualifications they must have. I would like to ask what qualifications the minister found in this man ? Were they scientific ? Were they religious ? Or literary ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Some say they were political.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That would not do under the Act. I can see that my hon. friend, being much interested in politics, might think that this statute referred to political qualifications. But if he considers it as a student of literature, I think he will see that that is an error. I am sure, from the speeches the hon. gentleman has made in this House that his mind is illuminated with the classics, English, Greek and Latin. If a man's mind is so illuminated, he acquires the quality of realizing the importance of words. Why, a word appears as big as the side of a house to him. He notices differences that to others would be imperceptible. He is struck at once with an accusative, or a dative, or an ablative absolute. The student of words taking up this statute would be struck at once with this peculiar phrase, ' and they and their deputy inspector shall be appointed only from among duly qualified persons.' If I were in office and it were my duty to make an appointment under this statute, I would naturally touch one of these numerous beds that seem to ring all over the department and bring numerous officials to the minister's side. I would call one of these men, perhaps a literary man or a doctor of laws, and I would say to him, ' tell me what ' qualified ' means in this statute. If he were a student of statutes and accustomed to construing them, he would at once see that these words do not relate necessarily to scientific qualifications, in short they are not words of nomenclature, therefore, they must be defined in the Act. Then I would look through the Act for a definition of ' duly qualified persons.' But looking through the Act I do not see any such interpretation. I am driven then to the conclusion that the words must receive the ordinary interpretation of these words in the English language. What, then, does duly qualified mean ? It may refer to a person who has been immersed-in that case he would be duly qualified to enter the Baptist Church, or if it meant duly qualified to enter the Church of England, it would require that he should be able to pass an examination in the thirty-nine articles. Of course, if he belonged to the church of the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Fraser), he would have to be able to recite the shorter catechism word for word and letter for letter.


Duncan Cameron Fraser: Yes, and lie would know that lie must give an account of time; therefore, he would not kill time.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: And he must also he familiar with that stately confession of faith called the Westminster confession. But since that hon. gentleman (Mr. Eraser) has entered parliament, they are doing away with the confession of faith. I suppose that as the hon. gentleman has been so long supporting the government they find it necessary to modify it in order to retain him; for one could hardly support this government for such a length of time and be ready to accept the old confession. But 1 am making a strictly legal and technical argument, and the hon. gentleman ought to understand that I am approaching the question scientifically and as a lawyer. Can the hon. learned gentleman help me to find out what is a duly qualified person under this Act 7 For, he will observe, if any other person is appointed, that appointment is illegal, and I am satisfied that the government would not wish to appoint a person illegally. I never saw a case beset with so many difficulties, and yet the minister seems never to have had one of them called to his attention. I venture to say that every one of the appointments made under the Act is irregular and void under this statute; and if the writs were sent to the Minister of Justice, that hon. gentleman would advise : You have not a shadow of a defence ; read the statute; and reconstruct your department. I would like the Minister of Justice to tell me what these words mean. He may say that this Act was passed under a Tory administration. If that is his answer, I can only say that the Tory administration had a poor draftsman. And, as to that, 1 think the draftsmen employed by this parliament are not good. You find singular provisions of the law clothed in different language. We ought to have an English draftsman, no matter what we pay him, so that when we wish to make a certain provision, it shall be clothed in the same language, every comma in its place. Then, when a section is judicially construed, it helps in the construction of every other. But in our [DOT]country different language is used to express the same idea, or, if the words are not varied, they are used in varied connections. I am amazed at the difficulties one finds in turning over these papers. The Minister of Labour (Hon. Sir William Mulock) could never have read this Act, could never have considered these difficulties. I can understand why all these provisions were necessary.
You were appointing an officer with extraordinary power. For instance, you could put up the Minister of Labour. As for the Minister of Finance, I think he did it more as an ad captandum reply to our friends on this side, because he is a shrewd Nova Scotian, and he catches on quickly to a
way of avoiding difficulties. But the Minister of Labour has seen fit not to reply, even by way of warding off attack. I have no doubt he intended to appoint more than one chief inspector, and perhaps one deputy. But I would not urge the second point. If he appoints one chief inspector in, the province of Ontario, he must name the province. He can name the whole territory of Ontario if he likes. He can say that for the purpose of chapter 99 the whole province of Ontario shall be one inspectorial district. Then he could proceed to find out what a properly qualified person was, and having found that out, he could, from among these people, select one of them. You cannot say that ' qualified person ' has no meaning, you have got to find a meaning for this phrase, and every word of that section must be read in, connection with every other word. The human mind is supposed to be capable of interpreting fully even a statute of the legislature. Some statutes, I admit, are very difficult to construe, because they are often not drawn with much care. But the judge who interprets these will say. I do not know' whether these men in the! House of Commons knew what they were doing or not. but for myself I am bound to give this language the most reasonable interpretation I can. I am bound to assume that they did know what they were doing. A judge is bound to find a meaning for these words ' qualified person,' otherwise he will hold this officer to be improperly appointed. It is no excuse for my hon. friend to say that he appointed Mr. Haycock. He might as well have appointed a cock of hay, and attempt to justify it under this section. I think my hon. friend was illogical in another respect. He said that Mr. Haycock covered the whole field. Why, in Nova Scotia we have dozens of haycocks and they do not cover a field. So my hon. friend has not a nice sense of language. I think a minister of the Crown should select every word he uses with the nicest care, with the same care that the Roman senators used when speaking. Once a barbarian came from a distant province that had been conquered by Rome, and hearing one of the senators pronounce a speech, he returned to his barbarian home and told the people to submit at once to the power of Rome, because, he said, the senators were gods and spoke as gods. Now how could any uncouth, unlettered person come into this House of Commons, and, looking down upon the grave and reverend seigneur, the Minister of Labour, and hearing him. in his most inartistic manner, discuss this statute, how could he return and make to the people of his distant province such a remark as that which was made concerning the Roman senators ? Surely the people of Canada should require of their ministers language as precise as that of the Roman senator.
I am bound to tell you, Mr. Chairman, that Rome never ruled over as much territory

r79<j
as the parliament of Canada rules over today. At the proudest moment of Rome's power she never ruled over 3,000,000 square miles ; whereas the hon. gentleman, by the extraordinary1 conduct of fate, is permitted to rule over 3,750,000 square miles of territory. Now I desire in the interest of Canada that the Minister of Labour, for whom I have the kindliest feelings, and whose fine ability I am bound to say-that is, I assume that he has a fine ability, because X assume that any gentleman who becomes a minister of the Crown has fine ability, although he may successfully conceal it from the public for a long time. But to-night I am going to assume on behalf of the cabinet of Canada-for I am bound to respect that body-I am going to assume, no matter how violent the assumption-we are commanded by law often to make violent assumptions- I am bound to assume that the Minister of Labour possesses that luminous mind that would enable him at once, when his attention is called to this statute, to give us all the benefit of a clear and distinct explanation. If he lias it not at hand, he will send and get us the original records of his department in which these appointments were all pointed out, and show us, before he asks us to pass that estimate, that every condition precedent to a legal appointment has been made.
To cover law costs and other expenses connected with deferred payments of bounties on iron and steel, $3,879.39.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This item arises out of the fact that there was a difference of opinion between the department and the Auditor General with respect to the claim of the steel companies for the payment of bounties. The question at issue was whether pig-iron, in the molten state, should be considered to be pig-iron, whether it must first be allowed to pass into the form of solid pig, or whether it was technically pig-iron as it came out in a molten condition. The department took the view, under the best information it could obtain, that the parties producing this iron had a right to claim the bounty upon it in the condition in which the claim was presented. There had been changes in the method of producing pig-iron. Formerly pig-iron was cast into solid pigs and passed in that stage into the next process for the manufacture of steel, but with the advancing methods of manufacture, that process was abandoned. The Auditor General took the ground that inasmuch as this pig-iron, in passing into the next stage of steel, was not cast into solid pigs, therefore it was not pig-iron. The matter was discussed for some considerable time, legal opinions were taken upon it and finally it was decided to have the case determined by the Exchequer Court. The decision was in favour of the company and against the view taken uy the Auditor General. Thereupon the bounties that were claimed were paid Mr. GOURLEY.
but in the course of this transaction legal expenses were incurred in trying the case and it is to pay these legal expenses that this vote is asked.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: I remember when the bounty on iron came up discussing this particular phase of the question. There was a bounty on pig-iron and a bounty on steel. I asked the government at that time if the company did not convert it into pig-iron and then into steel they would get the bounty for pig-iron and also for steel. The answer, if I remember correctly, at that time was that they would get the bounty for pig-iron and also for steel. I also drew the attention of the government to the fact that in the modern method of manufacturing steel it did not go into the form of pig-iron at all, but that it was converted at once into steel, and I asked the question at the time whether they got the bounty for pig-iron as well as for steel. I do not recall the exact terms of the answer given, but it seems to me that it was that they would get bounties on both iron and steel.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That is possibly correct.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Why did the government not appeal ? I do not wish to reflect in any way upon the judgment of Mr. Justice Burbidge, but in a matter involving so much money I would have thought that the government would have appealed, because 1 know there has been a great deal of speculation at the bar in regard to whether the judgment was scientifically or legally sound. I am bound to assume, in deference to the judge who pronounced the judgment, that it was, but I was surprised that the government did not think it wise to appeal, so that the question would be settled by a full bench. As a matter of fact, the judgment of a single judge does not settle anything. Any lawyer has a right to differ from him. but we are bound to bow to the judgment of the full court.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Apart from the question of law, there was a question of equity in it. Suppose that it should be assumed for the moment that the judgment of the court was wrong, the company might have proceeded to convert this pig-iron into solid form for 24 hours, and then to have passed it on to the next stage. It would simply have imposed a little more labour and a little more expense upon them, and I do not know that we have any object in forcing them to go to unnecessary trouble of that kind.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Would it not have lessened the bounty that the government had to pay?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No. it would not have lessened the bounty, but it might have made it a little more expen-

sive fcSr tlie company in tlie method of production, by obliging the company to go through the process in the old way rather than in the new. It would have made no difference in the amount of the bounty.


John Graham Haggart: Does the hon. minister remember what we are paying in iron bounties now?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: About .$1,300,000.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I understood that it made a considerable difference in the bounty. If it did not, I do not see why the company were so anxious to contest that suit.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: They found the modern method cheaper, and of course we might have forced them to adopt the old cooling process that had hitherto been followed, but it would have made it cost a little more in the production.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: If that is the only point, I agree with the view of the hon. gentleman.


John Graham Haggart: In the manufacture of steel by the modern method it is just as cheap to manufacture steel as pig-iron. You can bring out pig-iron in the same process as you can bring out steel, and the cost of manufacturing one is very little more, if any more, than the cost of manufacturing the other.


George Taylor: Why these law costs when we have a Solicitor General's department to look after these matters ? Why should we have paid these outside lawyers when we have the hon. Minister of Justice and the hon. Solicitor General? When hon. gentlemen opposite were on this side of the House they took that ground.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: We in the' Department of Justice advised the Auditor General to the best of our ability. He refused to accept the opinion we gave and took outside advice. After he took the advice, we thought it better to allow the case to go to the court, as the advice he obtained differed from the advice we had given. The matter having been referred to the court, the result was that the opinion of the Department of Justice was sustained in its entirety.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What were the costs?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There were experts brought from all over the United States to testify.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That includes witness fees ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, some of these experts were paid as high as $150 a day.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Does that include solicitors' and experts' fees.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, the whole business.
Inspection of Staples-Expenditure in oon-nection with inspection of grain and flour under the General Inspection and Manitoba Grain Acts-Governor General's warrant, $16,000.


John Graham Haggart: How was it that you required a Governor General's warrant?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That was a case where the appropriation was found to be insufficient, and it was necessary to have an additional sum. As we had no provision to meet this expenditure, we had to obtain a Governor General's warrant. This service is self-sustaining. We have to vote the cost in the ordinary way, but the fees fully pay the expense.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total amount required for inspection?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: $50,000 with the present vote.


John Graham Haggart: What were the fees?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: About $75,000.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Will the hon. minister excuse me for asking one more questim about the bounty on steel? What was the Auditor General's objection if there was practically no difference in the amount of the bounty?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I suppose the Auditor General felt that it was his duty to give the treasury the benefit of all doubts, and having a doubt in his mind he took legal advice.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: If there was no difference in the payments that were to be made whether it was molten or solid, what doubt or difficulty could exist in the Auditor General's mind?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If the court had sustained the contention of the Auditor General, the company could not have collected the bounty on iron at all.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: He said that being in liquid form, notwithstanding that the ingredients were absolutely the same, it was not pig-iron. In order to be pig-iron, he held that it was necessary that it should go through the cooling process.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: With such astute officers, I think the revenue is safe.
Culling timber, $17,500.


Mr. INGRAM.: What is this for ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is the usual vote, with some very slight change.


George Taylor: What is the revenue from this ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: About half of the cost is refunded by the revenue.


John Graham Haggart: This expenditure, I think, is one that the timber trade ought to bear itself. This is for the purpose of paying cullers of timber down in Quebec and probably other places. The fees received for the culling used to pay the expenses and leave a surplus, but now there is a deficit.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We used to have twenty-eight cullers on the list, and twenty-two of these have been superannuated, which accounts for the increase in the superannuation allowance.


John Graham Haggart: There is no necessity at all for six cullers in Quebec ; no timber goes there.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Oh, yes.


John Graham Haggart: Very little.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who are these gentlemen?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: All good old Tories. They have been in the service for a very long time.


Hon.   S@: Notwithstanding that the trade is decreasing, the cost of the clerical staff has increased from $5,950 to $6,100.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Are they Tories ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Every one of them. I do not think we need trouble very much about the salaries there, because the larger part of the amount is for the salary of the supervisor, Mr. Paton, who has been there a very great number of years, and for whose salary we may be providing for the last time. He is a very old man, and I am sorry to say that he is not likely to have another salary voted to him.


John Graham Haggart: I suppose you find it almost impossible to dismiss civil servants or reduce their number in Quebec.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: We are very partial to the old men we have there.


Mr. EARLE.: In connection with the items for the Trade and Commerce Department, I would like to call the attention of the acting minister to a question which was brought to the attention of the department last year. It has reference to the list of articles which are mentioned as entitled to preferential entry into the markets of France. Salmon is not mentioned on that list, but there was a shipment from our province accepted last year, while there was another shipment which they refused to accept. I would like to know if the deputy minister can inform the minister as to the condition in which that matter stands at present.


George Taylor: The MINISTER OF FINANCE, The deputy minister informs me that the French government have not consented to take our view of the matter. They still adhere to their interpretation of the tariff as respects that item.


Thomas Earle: There must be some misunderstanding about it, because one shipment that had been refused entry was afterwards accepted under the preferential tariff. The shipper himself informed me of that, and through me there was some correspondence on his behalf with the department.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Was it by direct shipment ?


Thomas Earle: It was by a shipment which was accepted as direct. As you are aware, we cannot ship direct in a ship sailing to France from our province, because there are none, and the shipment would have to go by rail to some of the eastern ports. There have been several shipments made, some of which have been entered under the preferential tariff. My object in bringing the matter to the attention of the department is to point out that while fish is mentioned on the list, canned salmon is not mentioned, and the French authorities claim it is not entitled to preferential entry. I wish to know if the department has taken any steps to have salmon placed on the list; lobsters and other fish are on it.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My recollection of the treaty is that it reads : ! Fish in its natural form,' or something like that. I do not think it specifically mentions the kind of fish, but I would not be sure about that. The main difficulty we have is the question of direct or indirect importation. If goods are sent by way of an English port and thence to France they do not treat that as a direct importation. If goods are sent by New York, strange to say, in the case of one line which seems to be recognized to some extent by the French government, the French Atlantic line, the French government have been willing to recognize goods carried by that line as a direct shipment. I am informed that the department has presented the matter to the French authorities, but so far without success.


Thomas Earle: The shipment I refer to was made in the same way as lobsters and other fish are sent.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Was it -made from a Canadian port ?


Thomas Earle: It was made from New York, by a French vessel.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: They do admit lobsters sent by the French line under the treaty.


Thomas Earle: If you look at the schedule you will see that it specifies the fish by name.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Perhaps it does.


Thomas Earle: At the time the schedule was arranged there was no shipment of salmon in view, and it is likely an oversight on that account.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I will call the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to it, and, of course, we are all anxious that the salmon of British Columbia should receive the benefit of the minimum tariff if we can get it.


Thomas Earle: Very well.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I wish to call the attention of the committee to the supplementary estimates of the Department of Railways and Canals for the past year, in part I have been able to bring down the information which the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Haggart) asked for, and the rest I will bring down at a later stage. I would be very glad that as far as possible hon. gentlemen opposite would facilitate the passage of these estimates, reserving to them' selves the right to discuss similar items in the main estimates, which are yet to come, for the reason that the year has passed and gone and the accounts have to be closed up. It is of the utmost importance that these accounts should be promptly closed or otherwise the Auditor General cannot do his work, and the consequence would mean delay at the beginning of next year, I trust that hon. gentlemen opposite may be able to let the present estimates pass with as little discussion as possible, but, of course, I would not expect them to waive their right of inquiry or criticism.
Murray Harbour branch and Hillsborough bridge, Prince Edward Island Railway, $450,000.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. minister was to bring down some information with respect to the Prince Edward Island Railway.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The hon. gentleman asked me to divide the item of $300,000 and show how much of it was for each branch of the service. It is as follows : For the bridge, $155,156.43 ; for the branch, $87,567.98 ; for fails, $45,000 ; for ties, $7.300 ; for rolling stock, $1,375.60 ; for land, $5,600. These items aggregate in round numbers $300,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount expended during the year under each head ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: For the year 1902-3 the expenditure was :	On the
bridge, $404,257.62 ; on the branch. $329,220.86 ; on the rolling stock, $9,515.52.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. minister promised to bring down information as to what the rolling stock was.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Under the contract dated July 2, 1900, the contractor is to have the free use of two locomotives and twenty-five cars for ballasting, track laying, surfacing and trimming. He has had these since last summer. They are not new locomotives or new cars, but the smaller ones which have been in use for some years. He applied for additional locomotives and ears in May, 1903. Two locomotives and fifteen cars have been hired to him at $5 a day for each locomotive and 30 cents a day for each car. He has therefore a total of four locomotives and forty cars.


John Graham Haggart: These supplementary locomotives and cars are not those to which he is entitled under the contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No. He is hiring those at a price.
Hon. Mi-. HAGGART. What possible object has the government in furnishing capital to this contractor, for which j.t receives an interest which is totally inadequate 1


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Of course, under the contract he was to be allowed the use of these. The consequence was that his tender was lower than it would have been if he had to furnish them for himself.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART  .@: The minister does not understand me. I am not referring to those to which he was entitled under the contract, but to those which were furnished to him subsequently at so much a day. Why do you furnish him.with something that he is not entitled to under the contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The road is approaching completion, and we shall require this rolling stock for the road. We could not afford to wait for it until the last moment.


John Graham Haggart: It will be entirely useless when the road is finished. Is it sufficient justification to say that the rolling stock may be valuable after the road is completed, for purchasing rolling stock long before it is required for the road, and leasing it or giving it to the contractor ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The road can be finished probably this autumn down to Murray river, and we would not have the rolling stock on hand for any great length of time.


John Graham Haggart: No matter whether the road is finished or not. the minister must see that a wrong principle underlies this action.
Prince Edward Island Railway-to provide and lay steel rails, $13,400.


John Graham Haggart: Is this the total amount that has been expended for steel rails during the past year ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: What are these rails used for-for the purposes of the contractor solely ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: These are not for the Murray Harbour road. They are for the main line of the Prince Edward Island Railway.


Andrew B. Ingram: What weight of rails are these ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: 
John Graham Haggart: The last time the estimate was up, there was some negotiation with the United States regarding the erection of this darn. What is the total amount expended V
The- MINISTER OF FINANCE. The matter is making very satisfactory progress with the United States but is not yet settled.


John Graham Haggart: Are you making the dam without their consent ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is not for the dam, and the dam should not be included.


John Graham Haggart: What amount has been expended and what was the original estimate for that channel ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The estimated total of that work when completed is $1,354,410.42, including the dam.


John Graham Haggart: What was the amount estimated before the work began V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The original estimate for 200 feet was $750,000. The width was afterwards increased to 300 feet. My deputy cannot remember the estimate made under the amended plan.


John Graham Haggart: Will this $80,000 complete it V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There is a further appropriation of $18,000 asked in the main estimates. These two items will complete it.


John Graham Haggart: $1,302,000 for a work entirely useless and not required at all for the navigation of the river.
Galops canal-enlargement, $25,000.


John Graham Haggart: As this item will create a long discussion and, the hon. member from that district is not here, I would ask to have it stand over. I would ask also that the next item, $25,000 for depening and widening Galops rapids be allowed to stand over as there will be a vote for the purpose of striking it out and a full discussion.


John Graham Haggart: 


George Taylor: The hon. member for Grenville informed me that he wanted this to stand as the money asked for has not been spent.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My information is that the work was done some time ago.


John Graham Haggart: There never was work done for the payments made there.
Items allowed to stand.
Welland canal-to lower mitre sills of lock two and guard gates, $9,000.


The .MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I move to strike out that item.


John Graham Haggart: I would like to know if the mitre sill is a foot higher than the navigation '!


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, there was a mistake made some years ago in the engineering.
lion. Mr. HAGGART. Exactly the statement I made a couple of years ago when the item was under discussion, and I was informed that there was no mistake whatever.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Welland canal-to remove obstructions and make other improvements, $30,000.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is for deepening portions of the long level. The contractors have made better progress than anticipated, and a further sum of $30,000 is required to close the work to the 1st July.


John Graham Haggart: What, for tilling in the long level ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: For removing obstructions and taking out centre piers.


John Graham Haggart: That is an enormous sum for taking out piers, there must be something else.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There ore $95,000 in the main estimates. This is not only for the removal of piers but also for the putting in of new spans. The channel was found too narrow and those piers had to be removed.
Mr. LANCASTER, At what part of the canal are these ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is known as the Long Level. I do not know whether my hon. friend (Mr. Lancaster) can identify it by that.


John Graham Haggart: That stretches over many miles. At what part of the Long Level is it ? If the hon. member for Welland (Mr. German) were here, he could tell us.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I remember the hon. member for Welland urged

It as of great importance to tlie navigation of the district.


John Graham Haggart: I suppose it is in the town in which the hon. member (Mr. [DOT]German) resides.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I cannot give the name of the precise spot.


John Graham Haggart: There is only one spat where it can be.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is between Fort Colborne and Welland, but the deputy cannot tell me the precise spot.


John Graham Haggart: It is between one extremity of the canal and the other. The hon. gentleman's (Hon. Mr. Fielding), information is precise and to the point.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If my hon. friend is acquainted with the-


John Graham Haggart: I know where it is exactly. Better pass on to the next.
Welland canal-land damages, Grand river, 3625;


John Graham Haggart: Surely the land damages are done on the Grand river. This is of no use to the navigation of the Welland [DOT]canal, and the sooner it is abandoned the better.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is because of damages to land by flooding [DOT]caused by the construction of the Duunville dam.


John Graham Haggart: Why, this dam was erected forty years ago, and there are land damages every year. Who are the parties ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: One of the claimants is W. T. Anthony, $500 ; Phillip Dufford, $97.27.


John Graham Haggart: He must have .been kicking a good deal ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Was that the way in the old days ?


John Graham Haggart: That is the way now.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Department of Indian Affairs had two claims of $14.63 and $13. I do not suppose that department has been kicking very much.


John Graham Haggart: The sooner the government is relieved of responsibility in reference to this branch of the canal, the better. It is of no use to navigation, and has been abandoned since the Lake Erie level was adopted. The Grand river in connection with the Welland canal is a totally useless work.


Andrew B. Ingram: And, so long as it is there, there will be land damages to pay, if the government is willing to pay them. Every [DOT]one knows that this is a district of low
level, and is bound to flood in some part every year.
Laehine canal-electrical appliances for operating lock gates, bridges and weirs, $20,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total amount of this improvement ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is to provide power house, flume, necessary machinery, power for work shops, Ac. The expenditure up to 30th June, 1903, was $67,895 ; and the amount required to complete the work is $30,000, making a total estimated cost of over $97,000. I cannot explain why the appropriation asked is only for $20,000, making $87,000. However, that is an error on the right side.


John Graham Haggart: Were these works only commenced last year ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


George Taylor: Is the work being done under contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes. There is one contract of $12,925, with Mr. Pringle, for electrical apparatus, and there are other items making up the total to over $19,000 out of the $20,000 we asked for.


Mr. FOWLER.: Was the rest of the work done by contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, the principle part of it.


John Graham Haggart: What part was not done by contract ? One would think that all these electrical appliances would be supplied under contract.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: All the electrical appliances, I am advised, were procured under contract. But there were a number of services and other supplies that could not be contracted for.


John Graham Haggart: The total expenditure", including this vote have been $87,000. But what amount of that is done by contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I was confining myself to an explanation with regard to this vote of $20,000, I cannot give the facts with regard to the previous expenditure, but I will get that information and bring it down.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I think I ought to move to strike out this vote entirely. We often hear complaints made of tu'penny ha'penny expenditures on the harbours of Nova Scotia, and it grieves me to see millions of money thrown into these canals in Ontario.


Mr. LANCASTER.: This is for Quebec.
Mr. GOURLEY'. But it is necessary to and tributary to Ontario. I find that these canals have been squandering money for half a century to develop the trade of To-

ronto. Now, I am not sectional. I never uttered a sectional word in my life, and I hope I will be spared the necessity of doing so. But when I hear hon. gentlemen from Ontario begrudging, apparently, little trifles that we need for harbours and steamers in Nova Scotia, I am shocked when I see these extraordinary sums voted with such carelessness for Ontario. I think there must be an end of these enormous expenditures on these canals, unless there is some compensation given in some way to the maritime provinces. We are tired of these eternal expenditures upon Ontario. We in the maritime provinces are tired of being the milch cow of this Dominion. As some compensation last year I readily agreed to the knocking off of the tolls on this canal, because anything that would benefit the trade of Ontario benefits me. I represent Ontario as much as any of these gentlemen here. Yes, under the law of this country the Minister of Justice would tell you that I represent every foot of Ontario as well as my own county. Now I want the freight rates on the Intercolonial lowered as a compensation for doing away with the tolls on the canals. I cannot see why this Bachine canal should be free, why we should vote this enormous sum of money, $20,000, to make bright and beautiful this canal for these gentlemen from Ontario who sail through it in their pleasure yachts. The item reads ' Electrical appliances for operating the lock gates, bridges and weirs.' These gentlemen travelling down from the wealthy cities of Ontario cannot wait, apparently, to have these locks opened in the ordinary way ; this country must furnish them with the most modern electrical appliances for that purpose. 1 suppose when the Minister of Customs desires to go on one of these pleasure trips down the St. Lawrence he cannot be bothered with having these opened in the ordinary way. That is all right, he wants to lead the strenuous life, I suppose. But at the same time I want to make the po'int that we must have some compensation for this extraordinary expenditure of money on these canals. We are getting tired of it in Nova Scotia, and we are not going to put up with it any longer. Therefore I think these gentlemen from Ontario should agree to cut the rates on the Intercolonial 50 per cent.


An hon. MEMBER.: Make them free. .


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The people of Ontario are not generous enough for that. We would be satisfied with a cut of 50 per cent. Or else I will move to strike out this item for lighting luxuriously the locks on the Lacliine canal. It is the most extraordinary thing I ever heard of-electrical appliances for operating lock gates ! I am told this is the latest and most modern thing in the history of canals. The people of Ontario are never satisfied with anything. They expect us in the maritime provinces to Mr. GOURLEY.
be satisfied with any old thing that happens to come along. We have been satisfied long enough, and now we want more railways. The province of Nova Scotia is practically without railways. If it had not been for the kindness of Providence in throwing the ocean around us, we would have been barbarians for the want of communication. But the sea has given us means of communication by which we have been enabled to keep in touch with each other, and keep our language and civilization in a measure intact.


Peter Macdonald: I must ask the hon. gentleman to confine himself to the question.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I move to strike that item out. I ask the Minister of Finance whether he is prepared, in compensation for these enormous votes that we are called upon to pay in the maritime provinces, to make us some compensation in the way of reducing rates on the Intercolonial.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I want my hon. friend to prove his generosity by being content to take less than he thinks' he deserves ; I want him to be generous enough to withdraw the motion. When you want to do a generous and gracious thing, do it handsomely.
Mr< GOURLEY. I will withdraw it, as- . suming, however, that the acting Minister of Railways and Canals will take into consideration the proposition, and endeavour to do justice to the maritime provinces.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Hear, hear.
Rideau canal-to complete Brasses' Point bridge, $2,750.


John Graham Haggart: Where is that V


George Taylor: That is at Brewer's Mills.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The appropriation to complete this bridge was found insufficient. It is a steel superstructure. The contract price was $8,950 and the contract was awarded to the Dominion Bridge Company, who were the lowest tenderers.


George Taylor: They had trouble with the piers.


John Graham Haggart: I do not see auy item in the estimates for Poonamaiee crossing which was recommended to the department a couple of years ago. I had expected to see an item in the estimates for the purpose of doing this work and I hope that before the session is over there will be a grant made to the township of Elmsley and to the other township in Leeds county which are practically interested in this undertaking. It is money that they are in

justice entitled to. On account of the construction of the Rideau canal part of the highway has been overflowed. It has been reported by the superintendent of the canal and it should be attended to without further delay. It really does not require an item in the estimates because the general vote for the Rideau canal will cover it. A petition has been sent to the department in regard to another matter in connection with the township of Montague and a deputation has been here to see the Minister of Railways and Canals. The representations of that deputation were promised favourable consideration, and the deputation went home believing from the courteous manner in which they had been received they had virtually received a grant for the undertaking. X hope the hon. minister will see, his way clear to taking favourable action* in regard to these two matters. Damages have been caused, something in the line of those caused by the overflowing of the GrauX river in consequence of which money has been voted. As a result of the construction of the Poonamalee dam the parties living above it allege that the dam has been raised every year, that the overflow of water upon the land is greater every year and they claim that they are entitled to damages. It is a small amount that they require and their request is a legitimate one.


The MINISTER OP FINANCE.: I will inquire into the matter.


John Graham Haggart: Oh, yes, but inquiries have been made for a long time.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We will consider it. We must not make promises.


John Graham Haggart: I should judge from that that there are to be further supplementary estimates.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We have some supplementary estimates to come down.
Welland canal-to complete dam and bridge at DunnvilJe, $12,000.


John Graham Haggart: That is the most monstrous expenditure that I ever heard of the government making for a work that is not at all necessary. This dam is for the benefit of a lot of mill owners on the Grand river. I do not believe you collect the amount that they promised each year for the use of the water for running their mills and to make an expenditure of $12,000 for a purely private undertaking for the benefit of these parties without a particle of benefit in it for the country at large is most unjustifiable. You might as well give me a present of $12,000 as make such an expenditure as that.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I want to reduce that item to $3,001. At the same time I would not be acting fairly by my
hon. friend if I conveyed the impression that that was all, because there was an appropriation in the main estimates for this work. This is only the balance.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total
amount you are expending ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There has been voted $30,000 and when we reduce this amount to $3,001 it will make $33,001.


John Graham Haggart: And that is only for the purpose of repair ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This finishes it.


John Graham Haggart: This is being done by day labour ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, it is under contract. The contractors being Messrs. Hutchison, Lattimore & Lalor.


John Graham Haggart: A great portion of it was done by day work.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am advised that the hon. gentleman is mistaken.


John Graham Haggart: Was there none done by day labour ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The amount of the contract is stated to be $39,-069.9C, let to the lowest tenderers, the gentlemen whose names I have mentioned. It is a schedule contract and it is estimated to figure out to that amount.


John Graham Haggart: That is all the expenditure under contract ?.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Well, that is supplementary to the work done by the day there. There has been a lot of work done by day labour. There have been parties employed from 1896 down by the day for the purpose of renewing the dam.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In this case we are rebuilding the dam. The hon. gentleman is referring to some previous work of repair.


John Graham Haggart: Rebuilding, is repairs.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This was commenced last year out of the appropriation of last year.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the object of this dam to furnish water to the feeder of the Welland canal which is not used at all now ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: What did Cayuga bridge cost ?


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Paterson) ought to know because he criticised it very severely when it was up in the House several years ago.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: How much did that cost ?


George Taylor: About $4,700.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: A little more than that.


Miv TAYLOR.: Look at the Auditor General's Report.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: This is on the same ground. The river flooded the land.


John Graham Haggart: What is the use of this dam to the public V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The information furnished me does not enable me to answer the hon. gentleman's question.


John Graham Haggart: It is possible it may have some public utility but it is not apparent to any one who has visited the place. It may be apparent to the department.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I must confess that we are passing these large items very flippantly. It was necessary at one time to have this as a feeder to the Welland Canal, but it is not required since the canal was deepened, and why should the ratepayers of my riding be called upon to pay $33,000 to keep up a dam which is absolutely only for the use of private individuals who have mills along there ? If these private parties want a dam let them keep it up themselves.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The water must be maintained there and these parties have leases and pay us a revenue.	[DOT]


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Let them have it free and keep the dam themselves.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It might be cheaper for the manufacturers to do that than to pay the considerable rental which they pay. We must remember that indirectly we are helping these manufacturers who have their works along the canal and who give employment to a large number of people. That is for the benefit of the public as a whole.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount of revenue the government receives? There were two flour mills there, one of which was burned down, and the one remaining turns out about 20 barrels a day. There is also a company manufacturing light for the town of Dunnville, and that is all. What revenue is paid by these people to the government ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I will have it looked up, and give the hon. gentleman the information later.
Intercolonial Railway, operating expenses,


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This simply refers to the increased volume of business.


John Graham Haggart: You want it to balance your books.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes. I will bring down a statement of the receipts and expenditures later on, and we will pass the item with that understanding.


John Graham Haggart: Very well.
Some resolutions reported.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved the adjournment of the House.


John Graham Haggart: Will the Minister of Finance be kind enough to state what business he intends to take up on Monday?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Monday being a private Bills day, and the Grand Trunk Pacific private Bill being on the Order paper, my expectation is that the hon. gentleman in charge of that will take It up. That with other private Bills may occupy some time. If we reach government Orders, we may proceed with some resolutions and Bills, and if we reach Supply, we will take up the main estimates of the Department of Railways and Canals.


John Graham Haggart: If you proceed with Bills, 11411 you take up the Redistribution Bill ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I have no instructions from the Prime Minister about that.


John Graham Haggart: We would like to have a special arrangement with reference to that Bill and a day fixed.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I will convey the hon. gentleman's wish to the Prime Minister.


John Graham Haggart: Has the hon. gentleman received a decision from the Speaker as to whether the National Transcontinental Railway Bill is to be introduced by resolution or not ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The resolution stands on the Notice paper, and its formal stage will be taken on Monday.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, August 3, 1903.