1902-05-09

Mr. T. B. FLINT (Yarmouth) moved :: That the provisions of rule 60 requiring twenty-four hours' notice of private Bills originating in the Senate before being considered by the committee of this House to which they are referred, be suspended for the remainder of the session.


Mr.  R. L.@: BORDEN (Halifax) What is the particular reason for this ?


Thomas Barnard Flint: A number of Bills usually come from the Senate at a late stage of the session, and if such a motion as this is not adopted, they cannot be considered at all.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: The difficulty is that persons who may desire to be heal'd with regard to these Bills will have no opportunity of presenting their views before the committee. A case of that kind was brought to my notice this morning. A Bill is on the Order paper for the second reading to-night, and if this motion be adopted, it will go to the committee to-morrow morning, and it would be impossible to arrange that persons who wish to be heard with regard to that Bill should be present. However great may be the desire to close the session on a particular day, that must not be carried so far as to prevent those who are interested in these matters from being heard. I am as much desirous as any other gentleman to have our labours terminated at an early date, but we cannot do

that at the expense of denying these people the right to be heard. I can only assent to the motion on the understanding that sufficient time will be given to parties interested to place their views before the committee.


The MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. James Sutherland).: 1 do not think that any injustice will be done to any person if this motion passes. If representations were made that the parties interested in a Rill desired to be heard, no committee would think of pressing that Bill forward under this rule if injustice were to be done. We sometimes forget in dealing with business of a public nature that these Bills of incorporation and other private Bills are of the utmost importance to those interested in them, and that every opportunity should be given to have them passed before prorogation. This is an ordinary motion which is made near the end of each session.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not much in favour of suspending the rules of the House, except for very urgent reasons. This motion seems to have been usual in the past, and I shall not object to it at present, provided it is distinctly understood that it shall only apply to Bills which are not opposed, and that Bills which are opposed shall be suspended for a sufficient length of time to give reasonable facilities to those who desire to be heard in opposition.


Thomas Barnard Flint: There can be no objection to that understanding.
Motion was agreed to.



THE MILLER CREEK CONCESSION.

Robert Laird Borden: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to Inform the government, particularly the hon. Minister of the Interior, that I have received a further communication from the miners whose telegram I read in the House the other day, asking for a reply to the message which was then sent, respecting the Miller Creek concession. I would like the hon. minister to state whether any answer has been sent, and generally what the position of the matter is.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I cannot say now. As the hon. gentleman knows, yesterday was a holiday, and it was impossible to get the records, the clerks being all away. I will have the matter looked up, and I shall be able to state to the hon. member this afternoon just how it stands.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS.

Robert Laird Borden: I wish to mention to the hon. Prime Minister that I have received a communication from the hon.
member for South Wentworth (Mr. Smith), inquiring as to two returns which he states had not been brought down when he left the House a few day ago. One was an order for copies of all tenders for the carrying of the mail from Hamilton to Guelph. He states further, that early in the session he moved for copies of the contracts with steamship companies receiving subsidies from the government, and that these had not been brought down when he left the House. He is anxious to have them brought down as soon as possible.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I now lay on the Table a return to the order which the hon. gentleman is asking for.



REPRESENTATION OF THE YUKON.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 134) respecting the representation of the Yukon Territory in the House of Commons.-The Minister of the Interior.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: I wish to move a few small changes in the Bill. There are two slight changes in section 8. to improve the wording, and to make the meaning clear.
I have been furnished with a copy of tl;e amendments suggested by my hon. friend from Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster). The most of these amendments I see no objection to, but there is one which involves a radical change In the principle of appointment, and which we would have to debate. I would suggest that we first go through the Act and make the clerical amendments I suggest, after having carefully examined and revised the clauses. Then we will go back and take up my hon. friend's amendments one after the other.


Robert Laird Borden: That will be all right, it being understood that we have the same rights exactly as if we had not gone through the Bill.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR moved that section 18 be amended by inserting after the word * Canada ' in the forty-fifth line, ' or a cheque for that amount accepted by such bank.' This is to make the Act accord with the change in the law by which a certified cheque may be accepted as deposit.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The sections 40, 41 and 42 provide for a man being placed on the list on polling day after he lias taken the oath. I may say that that principle was not in the North-west Territories Representation Act, but an amendment was subsequently passed providing that that might be done. I do not think that It will work satisfactorily in the territories. Hon. gentlemen will agree with me that in a place like the Yukon, where there is a

large floating population, it is desirable that the list should be final, and that upon election day an election should not be capable of being influenced by a large number of persons who might come to the poll and simply take the oath. The original Northwest Territories Representation Act did uot make any such provision, but provided that the lists should be final.
1 n 1899 an amendment was passed, at whose instance I do not know, authorizing persons to vote on taking the oath upon election day. I know that at the last general election that Was found to be unsatisfactory. Persons were unaware whether they had the right to vote or not and where they could vote, and, generally there was a lack of certainty about what the rights of the voters are which always arises when the list is not final. Parliament has decided many times that whatever disadvantages there may be about having a voters' list, one of the great advantages is that when it is made up and fairly revised, it .is final.


Mr. INGRAM.: How long before election day would the voters' list be considered to be final ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: The list is made up pending the election, after the proclamation is issued; and, when the voters' list 'is completed as provided in the Act, it is final.


Andrew B. Ingram: How many days before the election, does the final revision take place ?
The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR, No change can be made later than two days before the election, according to the present Bill as it is drawn. In that it follows the provisions of the old North-west Territories Act. That is not a matter to which I am wedded. If it is desired to make it longer, I would li'ave no objection. But I am quite clear in my mind that it is not at all desirable that after the list is made up, and on election day, persons would have the right to vote simply on taking an affidavit. For, in that ease, you might as well have no voters' 'list at all. I regret to say that we cannot always depend, as much as we would like to do, upon the indisposition of persons whom we should be able to trust, to take an oath that is not true. So I will ask the committee to amend these sections. I furnished my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax), with a copy of the amendment to section 41, but, as it did not seem to be very well drawn I have changed it slightly. It is as follows
la case any person whose name is on the list refuses to take either of the said oaths, erasing lines shall be drawn through his name on the voters' list and the words ' refused to be awcrn ' written thereafter, and such person whose name is so erased shall not be permitted to vote.


Robert Laird Borden: It would be better to say ' shall not be permitted to vote at said election,' to make it perfectly Hon. Mr. SiFTON.
clear that it does not apply to any subsequent election.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: All right.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I move that section 42 be amended to read as follows :-
Every voter shall he entitled to vote whose name is on the voters' list and has not been erased therefrom in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Act.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) The territory covered ,by this Bill is a very large one. How is it possible for the returning officer to ge,t correct lists if the final corrections in the list are made only two days before tbe election ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: The system was worked out in the Northwest Territories with especial reference to the fact that there 'is an enumerator for each polling division. The list is not necessarily sent back to the returning officer for the whole constituency and by him returned to the deputy returning otficer, but is made up by the enumerator for each polling subdivision.


[Stage Direction]
Amendments agreed to.
Mr. LANCASTER.: I move to amend section 15, by adding the following subsection ;
At least fifty copies of the said notice shall also be published by proclamation at least two weeks before the nomination posted up in conspicuous places throughout the territory at sufficient distances from each other to ensure notice to all parts of the said electoral district.
I do not know whether the hon. minister is willing to agreeVo the proposed amendment. If he is, I shall not waste the time of the House in discussing it, but if not, I will say a few words.


Tbe MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I have no objection to tlie principle at all. I would just say in reference to this amendment, that tlie Bill was carefully gone through by Mr. Ross, the commissioner, when be was here, and there were a number of changes made to suit the local circumstances of tbe case. Mr. Ross assured me that he was perfectly satisfied with it after he had revised it. The question of the publication of the notice, I think, was sufficiently considered, and he was satisfied that the provision was all right. The hon. gentleman will notice'that there is a change made in the usual method, by providing that notice shall be published in the newspapers, and I presume that Mr. Ross thought that would be quite sufficient. I have not the least objection to the hon. gentleman's suggestion if he thinks it will be safer to have fifty notices posted up.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I think it would he necessary, for the reason that without this
4470

amendment nobody In the district would have any chance of knowing anything- about the election going on, unless he saw the notice in one of the daily newspapers published at Dawson, or in the daily newspaper published at White Horse. It' lie did not see it in the newspaper published at White Horse or Dawson, he would have no opportunity of knowing that an election was about to be held, and I am inclined to think, in view of what the hon. minister has said, that he did not think of that fact, and as the hon. minister sees no objection to the amendment, I think it ought to be adopted.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think it is hardly safe to put in the words 1 in all parts,' because the electoral district is the whole Yukon district. It would be absolutely impossible to get these notices into all parts, because there are inaccessible parts, but, the hon. gentleman mignt make it more general, and use these words : ' to ensure notice generally throughout the said electoral district.'


Mr. ROSS (Ontario).: That would be better, because it would be a hard matter to have these notices distributed throughout that country.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: It might be a very hard matter, as the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Ross) suggests, but it would also be a very hard matter if the voters in these districts should not get notice. They are the people who elect the representatives. Of course, I do not think you would be bound to post notices in the wilderness.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Suppose you say : ' to ensure notice generally through the said electoral district ' ?


William Ross: How would it do to say that these notices should be put up at the post offices ? Surely there would be a post office wherever there would be any number of people to vote. Suppose they were sent to the postmasters, and the postmasters were ordered to put them up.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: The objection to that would be that the postmasters might not do it. This is a distribution of responsibility which is very unsafe. I think that the hon. minister will agree with me that we are right in keeping the responsibility confined to as few people as possible, because the moment we distribute the responsibility we lose tlie benefit of the provision. The postmasters might not put them up, or they might not put them up in sufficient time to give the necessary notice. If the hon. minister thinks the language I propose a little too strong, I would suggest that we use these words : ' to ensure notice to all parts of tlie said electoral district where there are voters.' Wherever there are voters they should have a chance to know that an election is about to be held.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That will do ; but I want to make sure that
we are not putting in a provision that would be impracticable. Suppose there were ten or twenty voters who had gone on an expedition 500 miles away to an inaccessible part, you would then run tlie risk of having Cue election declared void if it were brought before the court. What we should do is to use words that the court will give a construction to that we want it to give. We want the court, if this comes up for construction, to say that the notice must have been put up bona fide, so as to give what we all consider to be proper notice. We ought not to use any words which will compel the court to hold something which will be contrary to common sense. Suppose we say : ' At sufficient distance from each other to ensure general and sufficient notice throughout the said electoral district.'


Robert Laird Borden: I think that would do.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: With that, I will agree to the amendment. Perhaps wre had better go through the amendments and discuss them before changing the Bill.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Perhaps I had better insert these words suggested by the hon. minister : ' To ensure general and sufficient notice throughout tlie said electoral district.'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think before changing the Bill we had better discuss the various amendments, and we can then come back and change the sections that we decide to amend.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: And I also propose to amend section 16, by adding the following words : ' and shall give the same notice on the day fixed for such later nomination in the newspapers, and by proclamation, as is required by section 15 of this Act.'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no objection to that ; but I am doubtful about the next one.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I propose that section 17 shall be amended by striking out the word ' four,' in the third line of said section, and inserting instead thereof the word ' twenty-five.'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think that it would be well to make it twenty-five. Twenty-five is the number provided for in the general Act. The hon. gentleman has not lived in a sparsely settled district. I have seen cases, for instance in Manitoba, where a candidate came very nearly not getting his nomination paper in because he had very great difficulty getting a sufficient number of voters to sign it on the last day. I remember once being very nearly not being able to get my own nomination paper signed. It was left until the last two or three days. I was away, and my agent was away, and it was very difficult. It was a rural district ; there were no towns in the district, and a man had to

[DOT]drive from one farmer's. house to another getting their signatures. It was a tremendous job, and took two days, and we just barely got the nomination paper signed in time. In a sparsely settled district the number should not be placed too high. I have no [DOT]objection to having it placed at fifteen.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: We had better say 15. Four is so few that it Is hardly a proper nomination.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Make it 15.	.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: I move to amend section 25 toy adding at the end thereof :
Each polling division shall contain not less than 100 and not more than 200 qualified voters.
There is nothing in the Bill which says what shall be the number of voters in each polling place, and while I do not pretend to say that the number in the amendment is the most desirable number, yet I think a maximum and a minimum should be provided.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The idea is quite right, but I think that the minimum limit mentioned by the hon. gentleman is too high. There may be groups of miners at a distance where it would be necessary to have a polling place, and perhaps if the minimum were fixed at 25 it would meet the case. Of course in a closely settled place like Dawson city, the maximum might be put at 200 or even 300.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax) What is the minimum in the General Election Act ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 200, but 400 or 500 could vote quite easily in a day in a polling place.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Probably the minister has not been scrutineer so often as I have, and I know that it takes a good while to count 200 votes' If there is any delay because of objection to the voters, or because of swearing them, there is difficulty in polling even 200 in the one booth.


Andrew B. Ingram: On general principles I am in favour of the maximum being 400 or 500 instead of 200, because it saves expense, and under the present law we have too many polling booths throughout the country. In Dawson city the maximum might be 300, but in other districts in such a country as that you might not have more than 15 who could vote at the one polling place, and I would certainly not be in favour of disfranchising them. Perhaps a provision could be made that in sparsely settled districts the minimum would be so much, and in thickly populated districts so much.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It would be hardly desirable to hold a poll unless you have at least 25 voters. I have not bi'en a scrutineer perhaps so often as my hon. friend (Mr. Lancaster), but I have been around polling booths since I was 15 Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
years old, and I have never yet seen a case where a voter could not vote if he was there to vote.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It must be remembered that if there are 300 voters' names on the list, probably not more than 220 will vote.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We will make the minimum 25, and the maximum 200.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: I beg to move to amend section 20 by adding the following subsection.
The proclamation of the granting of such poll shall be published for at least two weeks preceding the taking of such poll, In the newspapers and by posting up as provided by section 15 of this Act.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is all right.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: I beg to move to amend section 27 :
By inserting after the word ' election ' in the third line, the words ' and in twelve other of the most conspicuous polling places in each polling division.'
There should be a posting up at some other places than at the polling booth.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Say four places instead of twelve.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Very well. Amendment agreed to.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: 
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The government 'have no objection at all to the principle that ,fhe Chief Justice or the senior Judge of the Territory shall appoint the enumerators. We do not desire to retain that power in our hands. Therefore, so far as the principle of the amendment is concerned, we concede it at once. But I do not think my hon. friend is correct in saying that liis other amendments depend on this one. I think it is the other way. My hon. friend wants this change made so that the making-up of the list shall be taken out of the bands of the government and put into the hfinds of an independent tribunal. That being the case, lie does not require the same precautions respecting the making-up of the list. In the old North-west Territories Act, which my hon. friend will remember was passed by his friends, and under which we laboured at some disadvantage for a number of years, the Governor In Council appointed the enumerator to make the lists, and he required no affidavit, no evidence, and there was no appeal of any kind what' ever from his decisions.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: That is as this Bill is without this amendment.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That was the most remarkable Act ever passed in Canada.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have that in Ontario.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, you have a revising officer, and you have a right of appeal.


Andrew B. Ingram: Not for a list of this character. The hon. minister is referring
to the old form of municipal lists ; but we also have a registration of voters, largely on this line, in cities and towns.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Under the old North-west Territories Act, which in a general way we are following in this Bill, the Governor in Council appointed the enumerators, and there was no revision. I admit that that is not a fair position for any political party to occupy ; and for that reason I do not think my hon. friend is unreasonable in asking that a judicial officer like the Chief Justice or the senior Judge of the Territory should appoint the enumerators. But I wish to point out to my hon. friend that in the clause he has drawn he has followed the idea that the lists are to be made up every year, while tlie scheme of the Act is that the lists should only be made up for an election and I do not want to depart from that. I am content to accept my hon. friend's suggestion ; but I would not be satisfied that we had the provisions in a satisfactory, workable shape, by just drawing them here hurriedly.


Andrew B. Ingram: Let me make a suggestion to the hon. gentleman. In the Ontario Registration Act, it is provided that seven days after the dissolution of parliament the registrars shall he called for the purpose of preparing a list of those entitled to register. In this Bill it could be provided that the registration should take place within seven days after tihe issue of the writ or at some other specified time.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is exactly wffiat the scheme of the Act is at present. This section provides that the lists shall be made up immediately after the issue of the writ.
I will accept my hon. friend's suggestion that the Chief Justice or senior judge should designate the enumerators, but I think we should retain the scheme of this Act and provide that he should designate the enumerators within a certain number of days, and be notified to do so at the same time that the writ is sent to the returning officer.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am satisfied to accept the hon. gentleman's suggestion. His idea is that the Chief Justice or senior judge should be appointed to designate the enumerators instead of the Governor in Council.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If we agree on that, I presume my hon. friend will not insist on the subsequent amendment requiring an affidavit for qualification.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I think I ought to insist on that because tbe Chief Justice ought to have some rule oh -which he is to proceed. AVe should define what sort of evidence he must take. In other provinces there must be a declaration or personal attendance and swearing. There should be some rule of evidence to guide the Chief Justice and the enumerators in the matter. There is one thing I do not understand. How is the hon.

minister going to fix the day for doing this? If you wait until the writ is issued, you will never have time enough to properly register these people. There is this difference between my proposition and the hon. minister's. He begins to count from a date unknown. He begins to count back from the election, while I am trying to fix some day before the election and do everything from that time forward, and if there should be a little time between the completion of the lists and polling day that will not do any harm. But if you begin so many days from the day of polling, and should not toe able to get through with the work toy polling day you will have chaos and trouble. I am glad the hon. minister accepts my suggestion that the Chief Justice should appoint the enumerators, but I would like to know when the Chief Justice will begin to do that. Would it not toe well for him to do it on the first of August this year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Wo [DOT]cannot work that.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: The Chief Justice should know when he has to appoint these enumerators, and unless we fix a special time, how is he to know it ?


Mr. GOIJRLEY.: How would it do to send a notice to the senior judge, immediately on sending the writs to the returning officer, and provide that he should immediately commence having the lists made up, and have them completed within say three months of the receipt of such notice. That would be fixing a definite date at which the list would toe completed. In your writ you could say that the nomination would take place a fortnight or a month after the completion of the lists. That would give ample opportunity for the lists to be properly completed. You could provide that the Chief Justice, say three months from the time he gets his notice, shall have the list completed, and then in the writ fix the date of nomination one month after the lists are completed.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have to do one of two things. We have to decide on an annual list or a list for the election. There is no middle course. We must have the one thing or the other. I think the committee will admit that it would toe quite unnecessary and useless to *have an annual list. The hon. gentleman knows from experience under the late Dominion Franchise Act that when people did not think there was going to toe an election they did not register, and some times the elections came on when the lists were very imperfect. The proper principle is to have the lists made up for the election. The one thing we have to decide is what shall be the period when the judge shall appoint enumerators who will set to work and make up the lists.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is it the intention of the ..government to have the elections .in the Yu-Mr. LANCASTER.
kon on the same day as the general elections throughout the Dominion ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The general elections, certainly.


Andrew B. Ingram: I was going to suggest a way out of the difficulty if the government did not intend doing that. If the general elections in the Yukon would take place at a certain time after the general elections in the Dominion, the lists could then be prepared, because every one would know that the elections would take place three, or six months after the general elections in the Dominion. That would do away with the expense of the annual lists and give ample time for making up the list before the elections, and no advantage would accrue to either party other than that which of course falls, especially in a district like the Yukon, to the party elected to power.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The trouble is that that does not get over the difficulty. The Election Act should provide for the different contingencies that may arise. We wish to provide machinery for holding the first election; and, in case the member who is elected should unfortunately die, we want it in such shape that we can hold another election. We want to get back to the same point and decide what should initiate proceedings, and I think the initiation of proceedings! must be. the issue of the writ. The Governor in Council muslt decide when the writ shall issue, and we can work out the rest of it very simply by providing that rwheu the writ is issued, notice shall toe sent to the Chief Justice and he shall order that the lists shall toe made up.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: If the minister will say that they will issue the writ in time for these things to toe done, that is a good way to fix the date. But you wiill have to issue the writ a good while before the election.	.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will submit the draft to my hon. friend. We cannot make the amendment this morning, because I must have the law clerk examine the draft and see that the duties dovetail in correctly.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: In the next section, No. 29, I move in amendment that the word ' immediately ' toe struck out. And the words ' within thirty days ' be inserted instead thereof. The word ' immediately ' seemed to me too wide; it is construed in all kinds of ways toy judges and others. The enumerator, to do his work properly, should be limited to a certain time. He can do it the next day, if he wishes, tout tins provides a limit of thirty day's. He might think that ' immediately ' in the Yukon would mean two or three months.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR
I do not see any objection to the amendment.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I move Hint this section, No. 29, be amended toy adding tlie following subsection :
(a) In the compilation of such list the enumerator may only enter therein the names of such person or persons as appear upon the last revised list or shall by statutory declaration filed with him' be declared, by such person or some agent having a personal knowledge of the facts declared to, to possess the qualifications necessary to entitle him' to vote under the provisions of this Act.


Mr. GERMAN.: I do not tlrink that * the last revised list ' should have anything to do with it. In a constituency such as this, where the people are shifting continually, the last revised list will have the names of a great many people who have left the district; -and, in order to get their names off it will be necessary to prove that they have left. There should be an absolutely new list for each election.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I might explain that 1 intend to propose amendments later on which will allow striking names off the list. The reason I have worded it in tlie way I have is this-if a man knows that he was on the list last year, and is still a resident, he would not unnaturally suppose that he is still on the list. And so, even in the absence of bis own declaration or iu the absence of some agent, it' would not be wrong for the officer to leave his name there. I propose to make provision that if his name should be struck off, it can be done on application to the Chief Justice.


William Manley German: I have had a good deal to do with the revision of the voters' list, and imy experience is that at is a good deal more difficult to get names off than to get them on. If we had a system of registration, we could do as they do throughout the whole of the United States. There, when an election is to Ibe held, everybody has <to reglister irrespective of whether his name was on the voters' list or not. And no matter who a man anay be, even if lie is the greatest millionaire in the country, if he is a congressman or senator, he must register if hei wishes to vote. In the Yukon, we should adopt a system similar to that, and the voters' list should be made up absolutely new.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to suggest to tbe minister and my hon. friend from Lincoln and Niagara (Mr. Lancaster) that, perhaps, it would be better to word that section in some such way as this :	1 Such enumerator, upon liis appointment, and having first taken the oath of office shall, immediately thereafter proceed to compile and within thirty days shall complete '-and so on. To leave the word ' compile ' alone might possibly create a little uncertainty.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I have no objection.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is what my hon. friend (Mr. Lancaster) intended, I think.


Robert Laird Borden: But, perhaps it expresses it a little more distinctly.
4 Mr. GOURLEY'. I think that thirty days is too short. In a big district like the Yukon, it 'Should be at least ninety, days. Let tlie compilation begin immediately, and be finished within ninety days.


Andrew B. Ingram: But ithe hon. gentleman (Mr. Gourley) must not forget that the intention of that Act is that each polling subdivision shall have an enumerator whose duty it shall he to prepare the list for the polling subdivision.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: But some of the residents may be two hundred aniles away.


Andrew B. Ingram: It does not make any differenc if they are two thousand miles away. A polling division is to contain not lsss than twenty-five or more than two hundred electors^ The, eaiumeraltor lias thirty days within which to make the list, and it does not make any difference if the constituency stretches for ten thousand miles beyond ithe limits of the polling sub divisions-the enumerator has onily to do with his own pant of it. We must avoid the mistake we are making in Ontario where we have the registration system in our cities and county towns. We have not sufficient time in Ontario for the registration, and that is the curse of -the system. We want to have the lists in the Yukon completed a sufficiently long time before tbe election for the people to know who have votes and who have not. That, I take it, is the object desired by the leader of the opposition and the member for Lancaster and Niagara.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: The objection I raise had nothing to do with the size of the constituency, but with the size of the polling division. Have a clause, providing, that not less than thirty or sixty days after your lists are completed, the writs are to be issued and the election take place. But I would say two months. What my learned friend says is very just, that lin a town or small district in Ontario, thirty days would be enough. But no matter whether there is an enumerator appointed for every electoral district in tlhe Yukon or not, I fancy many electoral districts will be more thaii 200 miles in extent. I have lived in the North-west, and I know that electors may be 50 or 100 miles apart; and how is ail enumerator to make up his list and give people an opportunity, in thirty days to come to the court ? Half of them would never know there was an enumerator appointed, and half of them would never know it was their duty to go to that enumerator within thirty days. You want sixty or ninety days.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is quite immaterial whether we send the writs to the returning officer and at the same time send a notice to the judge, or whether you send a notice to the judge and two

months after send the writs to the returning officer.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It ought to be GO days anyhow.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not see how we can work these other amendments respecting an appeal.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: The minister means that there would not be time for the appeals.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR There would not be time, it would be wholly impossible. We give you all the protection we can ; we give you the appointment of the enumerator by the chief justice, and then we give the protection that nobody can go on the list unless there is an affidavit filed.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: In section 30, the amendment I propose would he all right. It does not deal with the appeal, but it makes the chief justice the custodian of the lists. My amendment to section 30 requires the enumerator to have ten days after completing such list instead of retaining them to deliver them to the chief justice. So the chief justice is the custodian.


Andrew B. Ingram: As it is now, the list must be completed eight days before polling day. The hon gentleman thinks that is not long enough, and.that the time should be longer between the completion of the list and the polling. I think so to.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: How many days would you suggest ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I should think 30 days at least would be best in that country.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, You are not going to get much by that unless you have a general revision.


Andrew B. Ingram: Only this. If you crowd the work of completing the list, if the time is too short, then you are working at a disadvantage. But if you would have ample time, 30 days will be long enough. In Ontario we have not ample time, the work is crowded. There is much time devoted to the preparation of the lists that both parties would rather use in some other way.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have no objection to the period between the completion of the list and the election being made longer than two days. I think perhaps it might be desirable that the lists should be completed and everybody should know who had a right to vote, for a longer period than two days. But it is to be remembered that the enumerator appointed by the chief justice shall both make up and revise the list. So there is no object in having a longer period of time. The object in having a longer period of time in other places is to permit that revision to take place. But in this case it is the enumerator appointed by the chief justice who revises


Hon. Mr. SIFTON.: the lists as well as makes them up ; and for that purpose six days or ten days would be just as good as a hundred days. But we will say .ten days.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: No matter whether the enumerator makes up the list or not, every man in the electoral district wants to know of it, and wants to have time to get there. The elector must come before the enumerator and show that he has a right to vote. Surely the enumerator would not ibe permitted to sit down in 24 hours and write out the names of those that he thinks ought to be on. People residing in that electoral district must know that that man has power to make up the list, and they must have ample time to go there and give information that they are within the district and entitled to vote. Supposing the enumerator was appoined at Ottawa to make up the lists, you do not propose that lie should sit down and write out the names, and sign the list, and say that is enough. People who are interested must have time to go to the 'numerator and show that they have a right to be on that list. There should be at least
30	days allowed, from the time of the appointment of the enumerator in any electoral district before he proceeds to make up his list.	.
.Mr. INGRAM. Will the hon. gentleman explain section 29 ? That is the point of difference. It says that the enumerator, up->n his appointment, having first taken the oath of office, should immediately after commie the list of persons qualified as electors to vote. It does noit say whether he shall have one day, or two days, or how many days.
The -MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I think perhaps the list ought to be completed not less than a week before the election. I would say six days, if we can agree on that. I am not sure whether what my hon. friend suggests is in the Act or not, but I think provision should be made for a notice to be issued by the enumerator.


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman speaks of a week ; but section 30 provides for eight days, that tihe list shall be completed eight days before polling day.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is the preliminary list. Under section
31	the enumerator has but two days before the election to revise and add to. I would agree that the list should be finally revised at least six days before the election.


Robert Laird Borden: Would it not be necessary then to amend section 30 as well, and say fifteen days there, and seven days in section 31 ? If there is any appeal, I should think that ought to be a fair length of time.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: All right.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Do I understand tne minister to say he thinks it is right that

when an enumerator is appointed by judicial authority some notice should be posted by him in the district showing when the revision took place ?


The MINISTER OE THE INTERIOR.: We provide that upon the receipt of his instructions tlie enumerator shall publish the notice.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Then, further, I think there ought to be a time from the publication of that notice to the time when the list shall be finally completed in order that he will know. I think there should be twenty or thirty days.


The MINISTER OE THE INTERIOR.: That will be required to be published at a certain time. We can now insert the amendments which have now been made up to that proposed to be made to section 28, which will have to be redrawn.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: We agreed to the amendments up to section 29, but not to the amendment to 28.


William Ross: I want to ask the hon. minister whether we are likely to have representatives from the Yukon at the next session of this House ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, certainly, that is the intention. I will have an amendment drawn to cover the spirit and intention of the hon. gentleman's amendment to section 28. I will have the law clerk go through the Bill and draw a provision to cover the notice to be issued by the enumerator. I will have the changes typewritten and show them to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lancaster), and we will take the Bill back into committee at a later time to-day. We want to get the Bill through and send it to the Senate if possible.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 15 be amended by adding the following subsection (e):
(e) At least fifty copies of the said notice shall also be published by proclamation at least two weeks before the nomination posted up in conspicuous places throughout the territory at sufficient distances from each other to ensure general and sufficient notice throughout the said electoral district.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 16 be amended by adding the following words ' and shall give the same notice on) the day fixed for such later nomination in tlie newspapers and by proclamation as is required by section 15 of this Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 17 be amended by striking out the word ' four ' iu the third line of such section and. inserting instead thereof the words * fifteen.'


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 25 be amended by adding at the end thereof the words 'each such polling division shall include not more than two hundred and not less than twenty-five qualified voters.'


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 26 be amended by adding the following subsection thereto :
(a) A proclamation of the granting of such poll shall be .published for at least two weeks immediately preceding the taking of such poll in the newspapers and by posting up as provided in section 15 of this Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 27 be amended by inserting after the word ' election ' in the third line of such section * and in four other of the most con -spicuous places in each polling division.'


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Edward Arthur Lancaster: That section 29 be amended by striking out the word ' compile' in the third line thereof and inserting in lieu thereof the words ' proceed to compile and within thirty days shall complete ' and by adding the following subsection :
(a) In the compilation of such list the enumerator may only enter therein the names of such person or persons as appear upon the last revised list or shall by statutory declaration file with him be declared, by such person or some agent having a personal knowledge of the facts declared to, to possess the qualifications necessary to entitle him to vote under the provisions of this Act.


William Manley German: I understand that part of the amendment suggests that those names which appear on the last revised list can, pro forma, go on the new list. It is a decidedly bad clause to have there.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It does not say that.	.


William Manley German: It says that in making the list the nam?fe found on the last revised list may be put on.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is a restrictive clause on the powers of the enumerator. It says that he cannot put anybody there who is not on the last revised list.


William Manley German: The returning officer, if lie has any right to look to the last revised list at all, will take the names of the last revised list and put them on the new list. The enumerator will take a list four years old, and while probably there will not be a man in the locality whose name is on the list, he will take the names on the last revised list and put them on the new list. It will have a most disastrous result to the people in the locality. In appeals it would take not only thirty days, but it would take three months to go through the list of appeals that would be put in against a list made up in that way. If the enumerator



is permitted to take this list, the result which I have poiutetl out will follow. Let him make an absolutely new list without any reference to the old list at all. Let every man who is entitled to vote go in and register under the provisions of the Act. Then you will have an up-to-date list. But if the enumerator has the right to look at the old list you will have innumerable difficulties arising, which will be almost insurmountable in a sparsely settled country.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is something in what the hon. gentleman (Mr. German) has said so far as the practical aspect of the question is concerned.


William Manley German: You would find a large number of names on the last revised rolls which would have the right to go on the new revised rolls. I would impress on the minister and the House that if you do this you will find an exceedingly large number of names on the last revised roll who have no right to go on the new roll, and the officer can and likely will put them on. the new roll, and some one has got to go to the trouble of getting them struck off. My hon. friend from Lincoln (Mr. Lancaster) has been like myself, through the mill endeavouring to get names struck off, and he knows that it is a difficult thing to do. Give every facility for registering and let every man register without any reference to the old list.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a good deal in what my hon. friend (Mr. German) has said, but there are two sides to the question. I appreciate the difficulties that may arise if you leave this clause in, but if you have to face the situation that as a great many of these men will live in parts of the country that are remote from any enumerator-unless you should appoint a whole army of enumerators-then if you do not have a clause of this kind a considerable number of persons will be disfranchised. Would it be possible to so frame the clause that the enumerator can use the old list in some way as a basis and exercise his own judgment with regard to it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He can do that under this clause.


Robert Laird Borden: Possibly he can. Perhaps the best course would be for the minister to consider all the suggestions and give us his own views later on in the day.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I would feel disposed to leave out the words 'last revised assessment roll.' I would not in any other part of the country, but I think the number disqualified from the last revised assessment roll will be very small here. The tendency of the enumerator as the simplest way to discharge his duty would be to put on nearly every one who was on the old list, which would be very unsatis-


William Manley German: factory. We will let the matter stand until the Bill comes up again.
Progress reported.
At one o'clock the House took recess.
House resumed at Three o'clock. NATURALIZATION ACT AMENDMENT.
Bill (No. 154) to amend the Naturalization Act (the Prime Minister) read the second time and House went into committee thereon.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: The only object of this Bill is to provide that a record shall be kept in the Department of the Secretary of State at Ottawa of all naturalization papers which are granted in Canada. As a rule, naturalization papers are easily obtained and easily lost, and no list is kept of them. Certificates are granted by the courts of the different provinces which are authorized to grant naturalization papers, and the Bill provides that the clerks of those courts shall be required to send lists of all these papers to the Department of the Secretary of State, where access may be had to them at all times.


Robert Laird Borden: As the preparation of some of these lists extending back over a considerable number of years would involve considerable labour to the officers of the courts whose duty it is to prepare them, would it not be advisable to provide what fees shall be paid to these officers ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: We have thought of that. It would not be possible at present to form an accurate idea of what it would cost; but if there is money to be disbursed, we think it can be taken from the fund provided for the purposes of the Act.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand it is a matter which is to be taken into consideration ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Yes.
Bill reported; read the third time, and passed.



YUKON TERRITORY ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 110) further to amend the Yukon Territory Act.- The Minister of the Interior.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: The leader of the opposition has given notice of a couple of amendments. The first is that ordinances passed by the Governor in Council should not remain in force longer than the end of the next ensuing session unless approved by resolution of both Houses of parliament. 1 can see no special objection to the principle of that amendment, and am quite prepared to accept it.

My hon. friend has also given notice of another amendment, bnt which is really an amendment to the Dominion Lands Act. 1 presume what he desires is practically to limit the operation of the regulations and ordinances relating to mining under the Dominion Lands Act in the same way as the amendment I have just referred to limits ordinances applicable to the Yukon passed by the Governor in Council. We might insert a clause which would have the effect of operating this restriction as regards the Yukon Territory, but could hardly pass it in this Bill as of general application. If the hon. gentleman will accept my suggestion, I am satisfied.


Robert Laird Borden: What the hon. gentleman suggests is perfectly relevant as regards this Bill, though we have ample precedents in the past, even under this administration, for introducing sections of somewhat general application in measures of more limited application. As the territory of the Yukon is altogether the subject of this Bill, I would be disposed to accept the suggestion of the hon. gentleman and have the second amendment limited in its operation to the Yukon Territory.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Then, we will accept the first as drawn. The best way, I think, to reach the object of the second amendment would be to insert a new section as section 5 of this Bill, and I beg to submit one which I have rather hurriedly drawn :
Every regulation made by the Governor in Council, under section 5 of the Dominion Lands Act, chapter 54 of the revised statutes of Canada as amended, applicable to the Yukon Territory, shall remain1 in force until the day immediately succeeding the day of prorogation. Then we may continue with the rest of the amendment ns proposed by my hon. friend. With regard to section 3, considered In connection with the typewritten amendments, of which I furnished the hon. gentleman a copy, in line 38 of the Bill, section 3, it will be seen that the words ' or commissioners in council ' are found. Those words were put in when the original Bill was drawn l*y the late Minister of Justice, because under this section there was a restriction of the power to make ordinances, preventing the commissioner In council imposing taxes. This was done because the commissioners in council were not a body representing the people, but an appointed body. Now, however, they are a representative body, to the extent that half their members are representatives, and under section 2 they have the same powers as the assembly of the North-west Territories. I think, therefore, it would he well to strike out the latter part of ithe amendment at first proposed. This section will apply only to Acts by the Governor in Council ; and leave off the last section of the typewritten amendment which relates to the power of 1414
the commissioner in council. So, I will ask my hon. Mend to follow me as I read the section as it would be :
Section 8 of the said Act, as that section is enacted by section 2 of chapter 11 of the statutes of 1899, is repealed and the following is substituted therefor :
'8. Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Governor in Council may make ordinances for the peace, order, and good government of the territory, and of His Majesty's subjects anu others therein ; but no ordinance made by the Governor in Council shall- .
' (a.) tor the enforcement of any ordinance, impose any penalty exceeding five hundred dollars ;
' (b) alter or repeal the punishment provided in any Act of the parliament of Canada in force in the territory for any offence ;
'(c.) appropriate any public land or other property of Canada without authority of parliament, or impose any duty of customs or any excise.'
Nor shall any tax be imposed except as under this Act provided.
Provided always that the Governor in Council may make ordinances.
(a)	Imposing a tax or royalty upon gold and silver the output of the mines in the territory.
(b)	Prescribing and regulating the place and manner of collection of such tax or royalty and the method of securing and enforcing the payment thereof.
(cl Provide for the confiscation and forfeiture of gold and silver upon which such tax or royalty has not been paid, as well as for the confiscation and forfeiture of any vessel, vehicle, ear or other receptacle containing the same or used or intended to be used for the transportation thereof ; and,
(d) Giving to any officer of the Crown, in respect of searches, examinations and other proceedings for the enforcement of the provisions of any such ordinances, such powers, rights, privileges and protection as the Governor in Council, may think necessary or desirable in that behalf.
Thus, the commissioner in council's authority will come under section 2, exclusively, while the Governor in Council's authority will come under section 3, exclusively, and there will be no chance of confusion.


Robert Laird Borden: I am disposed to think that I would not suggest any further amendment, but I would like time for consideration. I would ask the hon. gentleman to let the matter stand over until this evening. Meantime, I will look the amendment over, and if I have any suggestion to offer, I will have it ready then.
Progress reported.



MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 162) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900.
On section 1,
Mr. BOYD.: Before that clause is adopted, I have a few remarks which 1 wish to make and some amendments to the Bill to suggest, which amendments I may explain now, and they can be dealt with more particularly as we take up the sections to

which they relate. But the first complaint that we have to make with regard to this Bill is that the very important amendments pi'oposed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce come before us so late in the session that it is almost impossible properly to discuss them. Within a few days of the beginning of the session, I drew the attention of the government to this very important measure. Yet it is not until now, within four or five days of the close of this session, that this measure, which is the most important on the statute-book in its effects upon the interests of the farmers of the Northwest, really comes before us for discussion. Now, as to amendments to the Bill, I would first draw attention to a complaint which is made in Manitoba owing to the fact that under the present law interior elevators, that is the elevator at Winnipeg and the elva-tor at Emerson, are permitted to mix the different grades of wheat for the purpose of raising the standard of the wheat they happen to have on hand. Under the old law, as I understand it, mixing was permitted at Fort William, but the law was amended in 1890 so as to permit mixing at Emerson and Winnipeg. It is claimed by many engaged in the grain business that this results detrimentally to the quality and grade of the wheat that is being exported, as it permits those engaged in that business to use scoured wheat in 'the mixing, and pass it off for a higher grade. This is said to be a disadvantage to those from whom the wheat is bought. I have some correspondence here with regard to the matter, which 1 shall probably lay before the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright), as I see that under this Act the administration of the law is put in charge of his department-and I may say in passing, that I am pleased with that change. There is another question with regard to what are known as the small warehouses. It is claimed that men who wish to nave these small warehouses are practically debarred from doing so by that provision of the law which compels them to keep these warehouses open and keep men to look after them. Owing to the small quantity of grain that can be put through these warehouses, the expense is prohibitory.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If the bon. gentleman will permit me, I would like to ask him a question. I suppose that what he refers to as ' small warehouses ' are what are termed ' flat warehouses ' in the Bill ?
This has been the experience in the pasit regarding those warehouses. It has been claimed that while the amended Act of 1890 permitted those warehouses, it was impossible to use them, owing to the fact that they could not be made profitable.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Does my hon. friend mean that the Act pre-Mr. BOYD.
vents the buyer from owning flat warehouses and storing his own grain ? The Act requires that flat warehouses should only be used for storing purposes.


Nathaniel Boyd: The objection is that a man who owns one of those small flat warehouses is compelled to keep a man there to operate it, and that it is impossible for him to make it profitable. Another amendment I propose to move is that the price of wheat at Fort William should be posted once or twice a day at the stations where there is an agent and where the grain is shipped. In that way the public is made aware of the jn-ice of grain in Fort William. I may say for the benefit of the minister that in the state of Dakota and part of Minnesota a rule such as this, I understand, has been in existence for some years, and has given great satisfaction, namely, that the price of wheat at Fort William, the grades of wheat as under this Act, is telegraphed once or twice a day over the lines and posted on the blackboards or in some conspicuous place In the stations along the line.
There is another matter I will mention. It has been suggested to me by people who are deeply interested in regard to this Act, that sub-inspectors should be appointed throughout Manitoba and the territories at the large shipping points. It is claimed that men could be found who would be capable and qualified to inspect wheat at shipping points. Of course their inspection would be subject to revision at Fort William or Winnipeg if that was thought proper. But many do not approve of having their wheat subject to inspection at Winnipeg, in view of the enormous amount of wheat that has to be inspected at Winnipeg. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going to read a letter from a gentleman who may perhaps be considered as opposed to the present Act, and as one of the agitators. I want to place it on ' Hansard ' so that the Minister of Trade and Commerce may be able at any time to refer to it. It is rather lengthy, and it may be tiresome to some hon. gentlemen who are not interested in the matter, but I think it important that it should be published so that the minister may be able to refer to it. The gentleman who writes this letter is not known to me, the letter is addressed to myself :
Winnipeg, April 9, 1902.
N. Boyd, Esq., M.P.,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-At a meeting some time ago of the Winnipeg Griin and Produce Exchange, a resolution1 was pased asking the Dominion parliament to change the Inspection Act so as to do away with the dual inspection at Fort William and make Winnipeg inspection final.
Such an action would be very injurious to the quality of Manitoba gram and would make it in worse repute than it is at the present time and every one knows it is bad enough nowr, to prove this all I have to do is to quote an interview one of the newspaper reporters had with Mr. G. R. Crowe, manager of the Northern Elevator Company, in which he said, ' Mani-

toba No. 1 Northern is selling at three cents per bushel lower than Duluth No. 1 Northern in New York.' What Mr. Crowe said was true, but why should it be when the requirements as to weight, quality, &c., are the same tor Manitoba No. 1 Northern as for Duluth No. 1 Northern ? The reason for the difference is that ' Ybe Manitoba Inspection Act ' has been formed and manipulated to suit the tastes of the monopolistic elevator companies who own the mixing elevators and whose members have ruled the grain exchange and consequently had resolutions passed which the government acted on, and the outcome is that the quality of our graded wheat has deteriorated to such an ex. tent that it will not command the aanre price that Duluth wheat of the same grade will in the worlds markets, the reason of the deterioration is that the most vicious and illegal mixing of scoured, dried and low grade wheat has taken place in the h'gh grades by the interior mixing elevators, and the Act (which was framed at the dictates of Mr. C. N. Bell, secretary of the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange), practically ties the hands of the inspectors so that they cannot stop it. True, the Act gives the inspectors instructions re mixing elevators but gives them no protection in any way when appeals are made to the Survey Board, the duty of the Survey Board is to grade wheat according to the Act, and if the inspector has lowered the grade out of the mixing elevators on account of it not being- up to the average, lie loses every time. Manitoba wheat should command a premium over Duluth wheat instead of selling at three cents lower, The reason for this is that Manitoba No. 1 Northern is comprised of practically all Red Fyfe ' wheat while Duluth No. 1 Northern contains a great deal of ' Blue Stem' ' wheat, Red Fyfe ' is a much stronger and better wheat than * Blue Stem.'
About three years ago the Grain Exchange passed a resolution asking the Dominion parliament to stop the mixing of Manitoba wheat and also asking that the inspection be done at Winnipeg with inspectors at Fort William to check and correct mistakes. In June, 1899, I attended a meeting of the agricultural committee in reference to the Inspection Act, and at that meeting the present Inspection Act was keenly opposed by the following .-Messrs'. McFee, Me* Bean & Quintal, of . Montreal ; Cummings, of Lyn; Richardson, of Kingston; Meldrum of Peterboro, Flavelle, of Lindsay; Kemp, McLaughlin, Spink & Watts, of Toronto, and Bailey of Hamilton, all protested against having the inspection done at Winnipeg which was over 400 miles from Fort William (the storage point) and all demanded that if the mixing was stopped at Fort William, &c., that It should also be stopped in the interior mixing elevators at Winnipeg and Emerson. Mr. C. N. Bell demanded that the interior mixing he allowed and stated that he was acting under -instructions from the Winnipeg Grain Exchange, the Dominion parliament shut their ears to all but Mr. Bell, shut their eyes as to what would be in the best interests of the Manitoba agriculturists and at the dictation of Mr. Bell (not on the resolution of the Grain Exchange which asked that al! mixing be stopped) had the present obnoxious Inspection Act passed. After returning home, the president of the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange told me that Mr. C. N. Bell's instructions were to have the mixing stopped everywhere and that he had no instructions whatever to ask to have it allowed at interior mixing elevators, this proves that Mr. Bell was wrong when he sa'd he was acting for the
Grain Exchange, instead of acting according to the Grain Exchanges instructions he acted the very opposite and his fighting for the mixing at Winnipeg and Emerson proves that he was working in the interests of the elevator monopolists.
The present Inspection Act has been in effect for over two years and a half and has proven itself to be very injurious to the farmers. It lias allowed the elevator monopolists to illegally and viciously mix and ruin the quality of graded wheat and thus allows the elevator owners to buy at under value (they have done so to an unreasonable extent for several months past).	.
We need a change in the Inspection Act, but not in the way the Grain Exchange ask. Who ever heard of any civilized country allowing wheat to be graded at over 400 miles from the storage point, yet this is what has been done in Winnipeg for over two years, any one who knows anything about wheat knows that the condition of- wheat often changes while a car is going less than 100 miles, during the month of September a great many farmers thresh direct from the stock and load at once into cars, as wheat does not sweat in the stook. I have several times seen cars pass Winnipeg in which the wheat was sweating and which the inspector graded ' tough,' but which on its arrival at Fort William was past the sweating stage and quite dry, consequently graded straight. Again during hot weather in summer I have seen wheat which was in good condition and graded straight in . Winnipeg arrive in Fort William very much heated and the inspector refused to grade it straight. This proves the inspection should be done at Fort William instead of at Winnipeg.
The Canadian Pacific Railway refuse to hold cars in Winnipeg so that they can be sampled in daylight, and in some cases a train will come in and leave again in such a short time that the samplers have not time to thoroughly examine the cars they are sampling, as every one knows not even the most expert grain-man can tell the grade of wheat by lamplight, so how can the samplers tell whether the cars are plugged with low grade wheat or not when they are forced to rush through and sample at night. Under the Old Inspection Act all cars were held on txack at Fort William for daylight sampling so that the samplers could find almost without exception all ears that were plugged and the inspector punished the dishonest shipper by lowering the grade down to the poorest quality that could be found in the car. Under the preseift Inspection Act plugged cars cannot help but pass the samplers very often as they are. forced to sample at night. The consequence of this is to further lower the quality of our wheat and again proves the inspection should be done at Fort William intead of at Winnipeg.
Another proof and the most forcible one is that I have known of a lot of cases where the inspector at Fort William refused to allow the cars to he unloaded at Fort William on the inspection certificate that had been issued at Winnipeg and the inspector at Winnipeg was forced to ask for the return of the certificate and replace it with a new one, sometimes the grtide was raised but very often it was lowered. Tnis again proves that Winnipeg is not the right place at which to inspect grain but that it should be inspected at Fort William.
In face of all the rankness of the Inspection Act, the Grain Exchange or rather the elevator monopolists who rule the exchange and use'it as a blind, again have the nerve to ask the Dominion parliament to change the Act and make

by the dealers at Carberry or at Winnipeg. In the case of these three cars which seemed a very peculiar thing, all of the dealers concluded that one particular car would go No. 1 hard and that the other two cars would go No. 1 Northern, but strange to say the car that they supposed would go No. 1 hard, went No. 1 Northern, and the other two cars went No. 1 hard. When the return came back from Winnipeg the grainmen said : There you see our position ; it is impossible for us to inspect this wheat for the reasons that when we decide on what we think is No. 1 hard we invariably get upset by the inspector in Winnipeg. That is one of the reasons why I think that we should have sub-inspectors at those larger interior points. I think a sub-inspector could inspect at a point where there would be 100,000 bushels of wheat or 200,000 bushels, and that he could pass along to one or two other stations and do the inspecting there. That would stop a great deal of this scheming and sharp practice that lias been perpetrated for some time past. I shall give another practical instance of what has occurred this last season. Take the town of Douglas, where there was a Mr. Greenwood, who is outside of the present grain exchange, buying wheat. On a certain day there was a difference of 10 cents a bushel on wheat, paid by the same firm at the town of Douglas and at the town of Sydney, which is 40 or 50 miles nearer the market. At Sydney the firm that was there opposing Mr. Greenwood was paying 10 cents less per bushel for wheat for the same grade of No. 1 Northern than they were paying at Douglas. There is something wrong when people can be treated like that. I am not here for the purpose of trying to gain the slightest political advantage in this matter. I am simply here to offer suggestions which I believe will enable the government at the present time, or as soon as possible to make that Grain Act as perfect as it can be made. There is another matter which I would like to mention with regard to this question and it is this : In the existing Act there is a certain dockage allowed. Those who buy wheat seem to have the privilege under the present Act, of taxing the wheat to a certain extent.
I will give an experience that I myself had. I shipped one car of wheat to Fort William and had something over 600 bushels of wheat in it. The dockage by the government weigher was, I think, 46 pounds; that is about three quarters of one bushel.
I sold 800 bushels of wheat to a merchant in Carberry and he took out 32 bushels, or 4 bushels to the hundred weight, and this was the same wheat. Well, if he had given back the dockage it would not have amounted to so much, but he gave back only 14 bushels and kept 18. I said:	If you take
this wheat out, you should give it back. He said:	No, under the Act, we keep it for
dockage. If they take anything from you in the way of dockage, they should give it
back to you. If you take any other produce to market, such as cheese or butter, and there is anything wrong with it which results in them taking dockage, they do not keep a certain amount from you. I do not think it was the intention of the framers of this Act that this should take place, and I propose to move an amendment in regard to it. I think I have said sufficient at present to show the way I feel in regard to it. I believe that if cars were given to the farmers, and if loading platforms were erected, the trouble would be overcome, because those engaged in the grain business would understand that they cannot force us to pass our grain through their elevators, and that while we are prepared to do business with them as long as they act fairly, if they do not treat us properly we can ship our own grain by our own cars. I see in the Act these words: ' without undue delay.' It is not my wish to be harsh or unfair with the railway companies, but I would like some of the lawyers in the House to tell me exactly what those words mean. I suppose they would mean a reasonable time, and if so, I am not going to raise any very serious objection.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Mr. Chairman, I very much regret that this Bill was not placed in the hands of hon. gentlemen earlier. I may say that I placed it before the House as soon as I, myself, was fully in possession of the amendments which I have been led to believe were desired by a large majority of the members of this House who are more intimately acquainted with this matter than I myself am. I would suggest to the hon. member (Mr. Boyd), that, if I followed him correctly, a great many of the remarks that he has just made, and in particular the letter which he has just read to the committee, do not apply to the Manitoba Grain Act. hut to the Inspection Act. Am I correct in that ?


Nathaniel Boyd: I do not know.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: We are now dealing with the question of amendments of the Grain Act, and I think a great deal of what he said refers to the Inspection Act, which is a different Act. Is that not so ?


Nathaniel Boyd: I do not so understand it. It may be possible in regard to the letter, but, perhaps the writer is finding fault with both Acts.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It is more particularly the Inspection Act of which he complains, whicli is a separate Act, and which we are not proposing to deal with in this Bill at all. Of course, I am aware that in bringing down anything of this kind at this stage of the session it is practically impossible to consider more than is now before us with any degree of profit. An immense number

of suggestions may be made, many of them very proper and very desirable, but ones that we can hardly consider now. I would suggest to the hon. gentleman that we take up each particular amendment that is proposed, and if the committee considers that that particular amendment is likely to be useful, we can pass that and I will take careful note of what my hon. friends on either side of the House suggest as to future improvements, but I would be rather chary about making any material alterations in the Act without due consideration. Of course, the Grain Inspection Act and Grain Act have only been very recently put under the charge of the Department of Trade and Commerce, and I have not yet been able to acquaint myself as well as I could wish with the practical working of these Acts. We have a commissioner engaged in dealing with these questions. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyd) himself knows that the circumstances which occurred last autumn were very exceptional. There was not only a vastly larger crop than ever before, but owing to certain climatic conditions, I believe that the time for moving the crop was very much shortened. I think I am correct in saying that there was scarcely more than half the time to handle double the crop, and I think under those circumstances there was much greater difficulty on the part of the railway company in meeting the demands of the inhabitants than would have occurred under ordinary conditions. Rut. I think lion, gentlemen will agree with me that the best we can do at present is to consider each one of these amendments that is proposed on its merits and by itself. I. myself, have a perfectly open mind. All I desire is, as far as we can, to improve the Act for the benefit of all concerned, and I can assure the hon. gentleman and all other hon. gentlemen who are specially concerned in the matter that I will take very careful note of any suggestions that they may have to offer. I am not in a position to say that I can accept at an hour's notice important amendments even if they appear to me to be very desirable. These things require to be very carefully considered before we can put them on the statute-book, but I will lie glad if we should confine ourselves, as much as may be, to the particular subject of the Grain Act, leaving the Inspection Act to be considered hereafter, and if we should confine ourselves to the special questions which are brought up in the amendments which I have now the honour of submitting to the committee.


Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).: In the early part of the session there were a number of petitions presented to the House from municipal councils in the province of Manitoba praying for amendments to the Grain Act. I think the hon. member for Selkirk fMr. McCreary) presented some of them, i know I had the pleasure of presenting a Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.
number. Are any of these amendments proposed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) adopting the line of the amendments suggested by these memorials presented to the government ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: As I understand, these amendments are the result of a comparison with, and compilation of the various petitions and letters sent to us suggesting amendments.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: As the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce has said, he is put in the position of having to consider a subject which until lately was in charge of the Department of Inland Revenue, and it is, as hon. gentlemen from the North-west Territories will all agree, almost impossible for a person who is not personally acquainted with the conditions of the grain trade to familiarize himself with the complicated working of the Inspection Act and ttlie Grain Adt. In fact, it is difficult to get two persons who are well acquainted with the workings of the grain trade to agree to what the law should be. There are two Acts which cover the transaction of the business-the Inspection Act and the Groin Act. The functions of the two Acts are very different. The Inspection Act provides the way in which the grades of wheat shall be fixed. The Grain Act consists of a series of regulations affecting the handling of the wheat by the buyer and the seller ; the storage of the wheat; the conduct of warehousemen, and a variety of regulations for the purpose of protecting the producers and enabling them to get the fair value of their grain. Hon. members who were hero in 1899, when the Inspection Act was revised, will remember that it was referred to a special committee, and mo piece of legislation which has been passed by this House since I have been a member of it, received more thorough and more anxious consideration in every clause and every line .than that Act. Sir Henry Joly was then Minister of Inland Revenue, and besides having the departmental duty of looking specially after the matter, ho took ia very warm personal interest in it. He attended the sittings of the committee; nearly all the North-west members also attended; persons interested in the matter on both sides, men in favour of independent buying, persons representing the farming interest, the millers, and', the grain dealers, were all at different times before the committee; and every provision in that Bill was worked out with as great care as any committee of this House is capable of giving to any Bill. I do not mean by that to suggest that the Bill is perfect-far from it; but I venture to say that it has worked as well as could possibly be expected, after all the difficult and changing circumstances which it has had to meet.
There are two special matters to which my hon. friend lias referred, which require

a moment's attention at least. One Is the objection which I have not heard to-day for ; the first time. I presume it has come to ' my hon. friend in the same way that it has come to me. It is that in elevators that are known in the North-west-not as public elevators, but storing elevators, there is an amount of mixing done which is detrimental to the reputation of the North-west wheat. That, I understand, is the objection of my hon. friend. Am I correct ?


Nathaniel Boyd: Yes.


The MINISTER OF TIIE INTERIOR.: The gerieral principle of the Inspection Act is that a man in his own elevator In the interior of the country may mix as he likes, but that when he puts his wheat into what is called the terminal or public elevator, it is graded, and it cannot be mixed, nor can the grading be deteriorated by any mixing that takes place after it passes into the hands of the inspector. It was suggested at the time the Act was passed, that possibly there might be elevators used for storing purposes in the interior of the country, and that in these storing elevators, where the wheat does not pass through the hands of an inspector, and therefore is not graded at all in the sense understood in the inspection Act, that might possibly take place which my bon. friend and other people say to some extent does take place. I have heard, as my hon. friend has, that it does take place, and section 13 of the Inspection Act of 1899 was adopted for the purpose of correcting that. If what my hon. -friend states and what 1 have heard from other quarters is true, it simply means that this clause has not .been acted upon.
I cannot myself imagine any method which the hon. gentleman could now suggest which would be any more effective than this clause. If you are going to provide a remedy by legislation, you must put it into the hands of somebody to decide whether the complaint is founded on fact or not; because it is a question of fact. You have the right under the Act to bring the matter to the attention of the inspector, and lie is required to make an, investigation; and if he does not do so in a satisfactory manner. you can take the complaint before the minister himself, and have it fairly and fully investigated. I do not think the committee which had this subject under consideration could have devised any better plan than the plan provided in the Act; and if that weapon is not being employed, I think the fault lies with those who have knowledge of .the fact, and who do not take the necessary steps to remedy the evil complained of. I may say, 'however, that in as much as the matter is now drawn to the attention of the minister, the facts might justify him in having a careful examination made as to whether the elevator in Winnipeg has been guilty of the violation of the principle of the Act.
Then, my .hon. friend referred to a desire on the part of some people that there should
be a change in the system of inspection so as to provide for the appointment of subinspectors throughout the country, instead of allowing the inspection to take place in Winnipeg, by having all the wheat pass through the hands of the chief inspector. That subject was also Considered in 1899 at the time the Act was passed, and a good many statements and opinions in regard to it have been brought before me from time to time; but 1 am bound to say that up to tlie present time I have never known a ease to be made out showing that the producer would derive any special benefit from a change in the system.
I do not say that he would not, but I cannot declare imyself positively as convinced either one way or the other. There has not been any sufficiently strong case made out to convince me that any substantial benefit would result from such a change. At present the wheat goes to the yard. A sample is taken from the car to the office of the chief inspector, and by that sample the grade is determined. My hon. friend refers to a case in which, when the dealers shipped the wheat, it went as one grade, and When the farmer shipped it, it went as a lower grade. I do not know how this particular fact is established, but I do not think that there has been any deliberate fraud on the part of the chief inspector. If there 'be a suggestion of any fraud or dishonesty on his .part, it would be the immediate duty of the government to take every possible means of having a most thorough investigation. I have never, during the time I have to do with the question, in one way or another, heard the slightest suggestion made by any one that there was any doubt whatever of the complete integrity of the chief Inspector, Mr. Horne. I have not the (honour of his personal acquaintance, but have never heard any but the highest opinions expressed regarding him, and I have not the slightest doubt that his integrity is above suspicion. It is possible, however, that in the handling of a thousand cars of wheat, a number of 'the cars might be transposed by mistake and mixed up together, but that would not be the only possible way in which I think such a mistake could occur, as to have wheat of the same quality shipped by two different parties graded differently.
I think that on the whole my hon. friend will agree that, considering all the difficulties attending the inspection of wheat, there is not very much fault to find with the result of the inspection system. But the result of the inspection system and the result of the shipping system, are two dif-i fereut things altogether. My hon. friend ! says that at Douglas last year, where there was an independent buyer, he was aide to pay 10 cents a bushel more than did the buyers who represented the elevator people. I have heard a similar statement made with regard to other places, and I am free to say that the facts show distinctly that there was a most remarkable difference in

the prices, to say the least, which were ottered those representing the elevator owners and the independent 'buyers who have no connection with that combine.
The amendments which my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce is proposing, are Intended to meet that ditticulty. If I have any understanding at all of the difficulty, it consists of two main things. First, there is the shortage of ears, and legislation of this character will not increase the supply of cars, tout we have succeeded in another way in making it certain that there will be a very largely augmented supply during next year. A very large sum -is being devoted by the Canadian Pacific Railway to the procuring of rolling stock for their operations during next year, and we may look with some degree of confidence to a great deal of relief in that respect. Rut the position of the farmers, which we are trying to remedy by this Bill, is this. The disadvantage under which tlhe farmer suffered was that the elevator people knew that the farmer was not in a position to handle ills grain except through them. The shortage of cars largely prevented the farmers from being able to ship independently. That wns the result of a combination of circumstances. It is alleged that the wheat buyer would not pay wliat the wheat was worth. The wliea-t buyers, of course, do not admit this, and it is not necessary for us to say wihat we think about it. But we all deplore the fact that, for a considerable portion of the season a.t least, the men who raised the wheat did not get its full value, and what we are really trying to do in -this Bill ,is to put the farmer in as independent a position as possible, so far as the wiiea-t -buyer is concerned. We give him the right to put up -a flat warehouse if he chooses, and a loaded platform, or to ship from the track, aud make -the company furnish him with cars if he wants them. That is about all that tills House, with the information it has, can dio to put the farmers in a position to soy to the grain buyers : We are independent and we can deal with you on equal terms; if you will not give us tlhe full value of the wheat, we will deal with -it ourselves. If my hon. friend w-ill look through the amendments, be will find tliat they are carefully drawn for the purpose iof bringing about that result.
In so far as the suggestions respecting the amendments to the Inspection Act are concerned, every member of the committee will agree that a radical change in the, system of inspecting wheat could not he -made in any other way than by bringing in a measure at the very beginning of the session, getting -the very best committee that co-ulil be appointed to deal with it, and g-iving the matter the most careful and protracted consideration.
I am quite confident-that as we go through the clauses, it will be seen that they have been carefully drawn- for the purpose of bringing about the results we all have in


Hon. Mr. SIPTON.: view. There was a suggestion made by my hon. friend respecting the posting of the prices of wheat. I do not know that any objection can be| raised to that. I do not know to what extent it would be an advantage. I-t might in many ways be an advantage to the farmers to know wliat wheat was worth at Fort William; and if that suggestion would -work to the advantage to the producer of wheat, I see no reason why it should not be adopted.


Mr. CAMPBELL.: Who is to pay the expense of getting -the quotations and posting -them two or three times a week ail over the territories ? It will be quite a heavy expense to get those telegrams from all the stations along the different lines of railway, and I do not think it is necessary. The farmers get the daily papers and mail and know pretty well the prices of grain in Winnipeg, and why should we put the dealers to the heavy expense of getting those telegrams and posting them up ?


William James Roche: Do not the local dealers already every day have the prices -telegraphed them by their head firms, and could they not be compelled to have them posted up publicly ?


Archibald Campbell: At some of the principal points, n-o doubt they do, but I do not suppose that in all the points they get those telegrams daily. I do not see how you could force the dealers to put up information which they get for their own private use.


Mr. CHARLTON.: It strikes me that, if the assertion is true, t-hat a difference of as much as 10 cents a bushel in the price of wheat exists between stations where there is competition and stations where there is no competition, then, in the interest of the great public of the North-west Territories, in the interest of the men who have gone into that country to indure its hardships and open it up to industry, the government would be quite justified in incurring whatever expense is necessary to carry out a plan that would afford them protection. And it seems to me that the suggestion that at all the stations where wheat is bought the prices ruling at Winnipeg shall be posted is one that is in the public interest. It might not serve the interest of buyers who wish to buy wheat 10 cents cheaper at one station than at another, but it would be in the interest of the farmer. We are trying to induce settlers to go into the country, and the men who go there at our instance are, in a sense, our wards, and we are their guardians. If these men are liable to be made a prey of by monopolists, and if giving them information will enable them to judge whether they are being dealt fairly with or not and whether they are receiving day by day the prices they ought to receive. I think that information ought to be afforded 1 them.


Nathaniel Boyd: In reply to some of tlie remarks of the Minister of the Interior, L may say that, as is known to lion, members, I was not in the House when these Acts were passed. Before I returned, the present Grain Act and the Inspection Act so far as it relates to grain, were passed. If, as has been stated by the Minister of the Interior, I have confused the two Acts or misunderstood them, it is a misunderstanding or confusion that prevails generally among the farmers throughout the country. This is one of the reasons that makes it all the more unfortunate that this Bill should be brought before us so late in the session. Had it been brought forward earlier, we could have proposed such amendments to the Inspection Act as would have removed the disability under which we labour. My hon. friend from West York seems to feel keenly the question of expense, and asks who is to pay for procuring and disseminating the information as to the prices of wheat. I think the hon. gentleman need not worry; for, if the fees now charged under the Inspection Act are not sufBcient for this purpose, a few cents added to these fees will fully cover the outlay, and the farmers, upon whom the burden will rest, will not object to the additional expense for such a purpose. The information will enable us to show these people what they are actually taking out of the farmers. If we know what the different grades of wheat are bringing at Fort William, and the freight, it is easy to know what price the grain men can afford to pay.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I would suggest that it would be better to take up each clause in turn and not go into a general discussion at this stage of the session, of the Inspection Act, with which the Grain Act has nothing at all to do. I have taken careful note of the hon. gentleman's suggestion as to telegraphing the prices of wheat and would like to make some further inquiry about it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: As my hon. friend (Mr. Boyd) will admit, the only way in which that could be worked out would be by a section requiring the railway station agent to post up the prices.


Nathaniel Boyd: 
William Ross: I may say that we have an arrangement under which daily reports from the three fishing stations in the three maritime provinces are received daily and are imblished in Halifax at the expense of
the government. Something to the same effect might be done in this instance.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I would suggest that, following the ordinary rules of the Committee of the Whole, we should taxe up one clause and consider it. We shall make no progress if we traverse the whole Grain Act and Inspection Act. But there will be every opportunity to consider amendments if we take up one section at a time.


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend (Mr. Boyd) was merely giving the Minister of Trade and Commerce notice of what was to come.
On section 2,	'


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: 1 wish to move an amendment to this by inserting the word ' first ' after the word ' six,' making it read ' the six first standard grades of wheat.'


Robert Laird Borden: Referring for a moment to the first section of the Act, it seems to be an unusual mode of legislation to say that the expression ' Minister of Inland Revenue ' should mean ' Minister of Trade and Commerce.' I do not see the object of it.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: In the Manitoba Grain Act the Minister of Inland Revenue had charge of this matter, and within a few months it has been transferred by special statute to the Department of Trade and Commerce.


William James Roche: I would like to suggest another amendment. The Agricultural Committee of the Manitoba legislature had an investigation into this Act at the last session of parliament and were going to memorialize this parliament in reference to certain amendments. But unfortunately those amendments were brought down on the last day of the session and they were talked out, and I presume the memorial never reached the government. One of the proposed amendments was to subsection 3, to make it more definite. It was to insert after the word ' forward ' in the second line thereof, the words ' to tlie order of the owner thereof when requested to do so by him.' Also to strike out the words * without delay ' from the fourteenth line of the same subsection and to substitute therefor the words ' within twenty-four hours.' ' Without delay ' seemed to them a rather indefinite term.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I am sorry that this matter was delayed to the present time. If the hon. gentleman will write out his amendments and forward them to me I will have them examined. But I am rather reluctant, unless for very strong cause, and because it would probably imperil the passage of the Bill to embark on a discussion of more than the amendments that are now suggested. If the hon. gentleman thinks that the proposals

that are made are to the general advantage I would suggest to him that it would be better to confine ourselves to these than to run the risk of losing them all. We all know that there is considerable risk in taking up absolutely new questions and inserting them in sections which are not now before us without an opportunity to compare them with the other portions oif the Bill. I do not say that his suggestions are not all right, but I would like to have a little time to consider them.
On section 3,
The MINISTER OF TRADE ANI) COMMERCE. I explained to the committee that the changes proposed to be made are chiefly these : At present ten farmers are required to apply, the present amendment reduces the ten to one. It strikes out the last clause which provides that in the case of each additional warehouse the applicants desirous of erecting it should be liable to pay rental of 6 per cent interest on the value of the land taken, such land to be determined and fixed by commissioners, and should be .liable to pay the cost of constructing the necessary sidings. That portion is struck out. Now I observe that an addition has been made here. In the original clause of the Act of 1900 a flat warehouse covered with metal is provided. The words ' covered with metal ' are omitted. Those words I think ought to be inserted again, and I move that they be inserted.


Mr. DOUGLAS.: I would like to remark that in the Bill of 1900 the erection of a flat wareSiouse utas surrounded) with so many restrictions that it was found that people were not ready to build them. It was thought better simply to state that they might build a flat warehouse and that all those details in connection with it should be left to the discretion of the warehouse commissioner; that it was quite unnecessary to define what the building should be, inasmuch as it was largely in the hands of the warehouse commissioner and the railway committee. I do not suppose that at this date and age they would think of anything else but a metal roof, even in view of the insurance. We considered it was not necessary to enter into any minute description of the building.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: Strong objection was taken to the omission of those words, and I think the objection was well taken.


James Moffat Douglas: I have no objection to their being replaced, I do not suppose it matters much.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The railway companies object very strongly to the omission of the words ,
' covered with metal ' on the ground that it | affects the insurance on everything surrounding.	I


Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.: 


Mr. SCOTT.: I would point out that the railway companies do not cover with metal all the buildings which they place on then-own property. It is perfectly true that in most cases, where these flat warehouses are erected in proximity to other buildings, it would be no doubt wise to have a provision in the Act that they should be covered with metal, but I think this may be safely left in the hands of the commissioner. There will doubtless be cases where warehouses will be located hundreds of yards away from any other building, and in such cases it would not be necessary to enforce the provision that the buildings should be covered with metal. I think it may be safely left to the discretion of the commissioner.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I sympathize to some extent with what my hon. friend (Mr. Scott) says, but it must be remembered that we are practically letting down the bars and giving the greatest possible facility for the construction of flat warehouses. We are not providing in this Bill that a flat warehouse shall be of any particular capacity. A warehouse mav only have a capacity of L000 bushels. Even if a warehouse should be put up 300 or 000 feet away from another elevator, next day a man might come along and apply for a site near the same place for the erection of an elevator that will cost $10,000 or $15,000. If you have two or three little flat warehouses, frame, and not covered with metal, you raise a difficulty at once. You raise a dispute, you have reference to the commissioner and there is a question as to whether this man shall be compelled to cover Ills warehouse with metal or not. It seems to me that the simplest way is to provide that the flat warehouse must be covered with metal, and there will toe no difficulty about it. If it were going to cost sufficient to impose any restriction on the erection of flat warehouses I would not suggest it. but it is a trifling matter in the case of a small warehouse. and it is well understood to be in the general interest that it should be done.


Nathaniel Boyd: I do not see any objection to that provision and I believe that on the whole it possibly will be in the interest of the farmers that a flat warehouse should be so covered as it affects the rate of insurance and other matters. I would like to have the hon. minister's interpretation of the Act as to this question : Must a man who owns one of these small warehouses keep it open for the use of the public ?


Robert Laird Borden: I am not very familiar with the working of the Act, but if my hon. friend (Sir Richard Cartwright) will look at subsections 4, 5 and 6 of section 41, he will see that it rather looks as if the owner will require to keep his warehouse open.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I do not see anything making it absolutely imperative in tjiis clause.


Robert Laird Borden: No, it does not say so in so many words.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: And I think if the hon. gentleman will look at section 8 he will see that we are removing a restriction on the buying and selling of grain which will probably obviate any practical difficulty.


Robert Laird Borden: ' That, of course, permits the use of it for his own grain, but is not the effect bf subsections 4, 5, 6, that he must keep it open for business by other persons ? I do not know whether it Is the best policy that he should be obliged to keep it open or not ; I am not speaking of the question of policy but merely as to the effect of this section.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: On the question of construction. That, of course, is more a legal question, but, reading it cursorily, I should hardly think that he could be compelled to keep a man there all the time.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Subsection 4 of section 41 of the Act says :
The owner of any such warehouse shall on the application of any farmer undertaking to ship a car load of grain, allot such farmer a binn in such warehouse as soon as one is available.
He is bound to permit his warehouse to be used for the purpose of shipping, but there is nothing in the Act that compels him to keep a man there. It is an obligation which could not be placed upon anybody by implication. It would have to be clear and specific.


Robert Laird Borden: I should think that is right, but if the farmer goes to him at his house he will be obliged to go down to the warehouse and allow him to put his grain in.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The elevator man will have to take the consequences.


Robert Laird Borden: The elevator man will have to go and open up his warehouse and let the farmer put his grain in, because the statute says so.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I remember that when the first Act was passed the commissioner reported upon the question, and after investigating it he was imbued with the idea that the warehouse should not be used by a buyer ; that is to say, that the owner Should not buy wheat himself and therefore the principle was embodied in the Act that flat warehouses should simply be a means of shipping, but the experience of the community there is against It. They seem to require that you should allow a small independent buyer to have a flat warehouse to buy grain and increase the competition on the market.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I take it that practically these
warehouses would not be in use for more than two months or thereabouts. Would not that be the practical result ? It is in the autumn when the grain is threshed and prior to the close of navigation that these things will be of real use to the farmers. As matters now stand I think by removing the restrictions on the purchase and sale of grain we will make it very much to the interest of the proprietor of the flat warehouse to be anxious to receive anything he can get.


Nathaniel Boyd: I know that it was frequently said by those interested in building these small warehouses that that was one of the reasons why they did not take advantage of the Act.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The objection was, that, not being able to buy grain, they could not get the profit of buying. They could only make a storage charge for the wheat which they received and the small quantity which a flat warehouse held did not pay. But now, the owner is enabled to make a profit by buying grain and I do not think there is any difficulty about that.


Nathaniel Boyd: I am prepared to let it pass on the strength of the legal interpretation we have had and to take our chance of the future interpretation of the court if necessity demands it.


Mr. DAVIS.: There is a suggestion which I would like to make. I see by this Act that you are confined to building nothing but a flat warehouse. I do not see why there should not be a provision which would enable a person to build either a flat warehouse, or an elevator. Last year we wanted to build an elevator in place of a flat warehouse, and we found a provision in the law under which we could build a flat warehouse, but there was no provision for us to build an elevator, and we could not get the right of way from the company. I-t is in the interest of the country that elevators should be built in place of flat warehouses, and I do not see why we should not have the privilege of building them. If the farmers have enough money to build an elevator they ought to be allowed to build it.


Robert Laird Borden: Is tue expression ' flat warehouse ' defined by statute or is it merely a term known to the trade.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: So far as I am aware it is not defined by statute.


Robert Laird Borden: There does not seem to be any restriction on the height of a flat warehouse.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: An elevator is a warehouse, but a warehouse is not necessarily an elevator. An elevator is a warehouse which has machinery for lifting the grain.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that, but there does not seem to be any restriction in this statute on making a flat warehouse as high as one likes, and there is nothing in the Act to prevent you from having machinery in it. Why does it not authorize the building of an elevator ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I do not say that it does not, but these are questions which are often required to be determined by the court.


Thomas Osborne Davis: 1 want to have the word ' elevator ' inserted because we do not want to have any trouble about it. We got a lawyer last year and he advised us that we could not build an elevator under the provisions of the Act.


Robert Laird Borden: 1 am not disputing that. I was merely seeking information from the minister as to the meaning of the statute.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I took the expression ' flat warehouse ' as I found it in the Manitoba Grain Act of 1900. I am willing to consider all these amendments together.
On section 5, subsection 2,


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I wish to add the words ' within the limits of the station yard ' so as to make it read * each loading platform shall be erected within tihe limits of the station yard.'


Thomas Osborne Davis: Where there is no station yard, and the farmers want the platform, where do you provide it shall be erected ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It will have to be provisionally erected where the commissioner directs.
On section 5, subsection 4,


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I wish to introduce the words here ' unless prevented by strikes or other unforeseen causes.' That will make it read that they shall erect the platform within 30 days unless prevented by strikes and so on.


Mr. McCREARY.: 30 days is too long. I think the Minnesota State Act only gives them 10 days within which to erect a loading platform, and if you give them 30 days there should be no exception with regard to strikes. There might be a strike for instance, on some portion of the railway, but not among carpenters at all. and the company might use that as an excuse for not putting up a platform.


Thomas Walter Scott: I draw the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the fact that the government have announced their intention of introducing legislation next year absolutely to prevent strikes on railways.


Clifford Sifton: 


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: If they succeed in doing that all the better.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
Robert Laird Borden: There is just one suggestion with regard to the second clause, that is, that in the amendment which the minister has proposed, there is no obligation to construct a platform except at a station. It was somewhat broader before.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I would suggest adding the -words, ' and where there is no station yard, at such place as the commissioner may prescribe.'


Nathaniel Boyd: I would like to have a legal interpretation of the meaning of the words ' undue delay,' in the clause requiring railway companies to furnish cars to farmers without undue delay. Do they mean forty-eight hours, a week, or how long ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think I can answer that question by asking my hon. friend to try to express the idea better. I think he would then realize the difficulty of trying to regulate business by an Act of parliament. The only thing we can do is to employ general terms which are to be understood in their ordinary and common sense. You cannot say in an Act of parliament that if a man asks a railway company for a car for a certain purpose the company shall furnish it to him within a certain time, because unforeseen circumstances might render it impossible to do so. I think my hon. friend will see that we have gone just as far as we could go in a legislative enactment by declaring what the duty of the company shall be. Undue delay means unreasonable delay. If you covered pages of the statute-book with explanations I do not believe you could make the provision any more effective.


Thomas Osborne Davis: The real difficulty is this. The railway companies bring a certain number of cars to every shipping point, and what we want to provide is that the farmers shall get a fair proportion of these cars.


Thomas Walter Scott: This particular clause has no reference to the distribution of cars so much as it is to make provision that the cars shall be furnished to farmers at all points-not only where there are loading platforms, but at other points.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This clause lays down the principle that the farmer is entitled to get his share of cars. The company canfaot say, ' we are only bound to furnish cars where there is a warehouse or an elevator.' We settled that question by this clause.


Nathaniel Boyd: I have no desire to hamper the railway companies in doing business. But the minister has asked me if I would

suggest something that would be more effective. I could very soon do it, but it is a question whether it would be exactly fair to the railway companies. For instance, if a farmer keeps a car for a certain time and does not load it he has to pay for the car. If, ou the other hand, you provide that when the farmer demands a car within a certain time the company shall pay if they do not furnish it within that time, you wiil get over the difficulty. But for my part,
1	suppose we may be satisfied in the meantime to see how the railway companies are prepared to meet the provisions of the Act so far as we have gone and deal with them later on if they do not do so.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I think that would be the wiser course. This Act will, I think, be up for revision next year, and in the meantime we shall have an opportunity of seeing how it will work.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: You are proposing to extend the powTer of the commissioner to put up loading platforms wherever he chooses. He should not have that power at all. I would suggest that they be put either at a station or at a siding.


Mr. DAYIS.: I think that should be left in the hands of the commissioner who is on the ground and knows the conditions. There are places where there is plenty of grain, but where there is not a siding for a distance of twenty miles.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I move the addition to section
2	of the words ' and where there is no station yard at such siding as the commissioner may prescribe.'


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
On section 8,
Nathaniel Boyd: I beg to submit the following amendment: On the second line between the words ' agent ' and ' and ' that the following words be inserted. ' Tnere shall be a suitable blackboard, upon which the prices of all grains offered for sale under this Act shall be plainly written daily at 9 a.m. and 1 p.m.' [DOT]


Fred Langdon Davis: Who will do this work-the railway company or the government ?


Nathaniel Boyd: Take it out of the inspection commission.


James Moffat Douglas: Provision is made in the Act to provide papers giving the prices in Liverpool and other points, and also Chicago and Minneapolis, to be seen every day in Winnipeg, so that the suggestion of the hon. member for Macdonald is simply to carry this forward from Winnipeg to outlying stations.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: There are nearly a thousand such
stations, and this might be a very considerable tax on the Inspection Act, which is hardly equal to the requirements made on it, as it stands. I would like a little time to consider that amendment, and I hope, when we come to the third reading, to be able to give an answer. There is no limit to the time in the amendment, and to supply for several months prices' twice a day to a thousand stations might involve much greater i expense than the hon. gentleman contemplates. I suppose his intention is that these prices shall be supplied by the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company, which is tne only company that has communication with all these stations. From my own experience, I should say that to supply twice a day to a thousand places by telegraph the prices of all kinds of wheat offered for sale under this Act, might involve a very considerable charge. Judging from my own experience, I should say that to supply, twice a day, telegraphic statements to a thousand places of the price of all the grades of wheat offered for sale under this Act might involve a very considerable charge. It might run into a great many thousand dollars.


Fred Langdon Davis: And what about the ease of places where they load from the platform ?


Nathaniel Boyd: Of course, where there is no telegraph, it cannot be done.


Thomas Osborne Davis: Then, one portion of the community would be protected and the other not.


Nathaniel Boyd: It is better to have some protected than none.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: While it is, without doubt, important and desirable that the farmers selling wheat should know what that wheat is worth at Port Arthur afloat, as a matter of fact, the only way in which that could be brought about is by making some kind of amicable arrangement with the railway companies who have the telegraph lines, to furnish it.


William James Roche: That is the way the Agricultural Committee of the legislature decided to do it-to make the request of the railway companies.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Without warning, or notice, or discussion, to put a statutory obligation on the railway companies would not be so advantageous, I should think, as for the department to try to make an amicable arrangement with the companies. My impression is that there would be no great difficulty about it, but, of course, I cannot speak with certainty. But my hon. friend will see that it would be much better to make the attempt, because if the railway companies desire to do it, they have the facilities, hav-iug both the means of communication and a staff of officers to post up the informa-

tion. But, if you make it obligatory by statute, you do two tilings. In the first place, you are to a certain extent, making yourself responsible for the correctness of the prices quoted, which is not altogether a satisfactory thing to do. The hon. gentleman knows that, on the street in Winnipeg you may meet a man who will say :
I will give you so much for wheat, and five minutes after he might be willing to give you two cents more. Under such circumstances, who is to say what the price really is at Port Arthur. The only thing you can do is to give it as nearly as possible, and it will be much more satisfactory if that were done under an amicable arrangement with all parties than under a statute which, the railway companies would naturally feel, imposed upon them a duty which it was difficult to perform. 1 think it would be better for the department first to attempt to work out the' arrangement with the railway companies than to make it statutory.


Nathaniel Boyd: For my part, I can see no difficulty about this being carried into effect. At the present time in many places in Manitoba-and for that matter, throughout Canada-we get market quotations hourly. And, as I say, if it is necessary to make a charge on the farmers, a very small charge on the millions of bushels of wheat going to Port Arthur would meet all the extra expense, and the farmers would be well remunerated by the service that would be rendered them in posting up these prices.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: I quite agree with my hon. friend.


Nathaniel Boyd: If the hon. minister agrees, there need be no great difficulty in working out the details. I have offered the suggestion and am satisfied to leave it with the minister until the third reading of the Bill. In the meantime, he can confer with his officers and devise a means of carrying out an improvement which, in my opinion, is absolutely necessary. And I think that hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House who represent the grain sellers of this country will support me.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I will accept my hon. friend's (Mr. Boyd's) suggestion. We will take this into consideration and will announce our conclusion on the third reading of the Bill. I wish to make a further amendment in this clause. It has been represented that there are a number of shipping stations in the same agency, and that it would be desirable to amend the section so as to include the various shipping points where there is no agent permanently resident. Also I propose to strike out the words ' forty-eight hours.' The first part of the section then would read :
At each station where there is a railway agent and where grain is shipped under such agent, an order book for cars shall be kept open to the


Clifford Sifton: public for each shipping point under such agent in which applicants for cars shall make order. Applicants shall make order according to their requirements ; cars so ordered shall be awarded to applicants according to the order in time in which such orders appear on the Order book.
And s-o on.


John Graham Haggart: This clause seems to me the most curious piece of legislation I ever read. I do not see how it is possible #to carry it out. Suppose a party who has ordered a car, and after a delay of 48 hours, if he does not take it, it is awarded to the next person. If the next person does not take it within 48 hours, when there are a couple of hundred applicants, it may be. bow long will it be before some one will appear who will take it ? It is impossible to work out anything of the kind.


James Moffat Douglas: If the individual does not appear the railway company can come upon liim for demurrage, if he does not use the car within 48 hours. Under the common Railway Act an individual has 48 hours within which to use the car, and it would be only just that the railway company should charge demurrage for the detention of the car.
.Hon. Mr. HAGGART. There is no provision for demurrage. Suppose there are fifty applicants for a car. The first man forfeits his right in 48 hours. The next man. may live five miles or ten miles from the station. Notice is to be sent to him. who is to send the notice, or who is to pay for sending it ? Even if he lives convenient to the station, he has 48 hours more to wait, and so it runs on, and the railroad company has to keep the cars there all the time. I do not see how you can make any practical use of this kind of legislation.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend's imagination may suggest a great many difficulties which are not likely to occur in the practical working out of this clause. There will be no attempt to send a word to anybody that there is a car there waiting for him. Cars are coming in every hour of the day, and no station agent will keep a car 48 hours if the applicant is not there to take it. If a man has ordered a car and is there he will get it, if he is not there, he won't get it, and it will be given to the next man who is there. The real effect of this clause is to give an individual the right to order a car and to get a car, the railway company are compelled to furnish him a car. I am not disposed to be unreasonable with the railway company. I recognize the fact that it is a very difficult business for any station agent to handle the business at a point where there is an immense amount of wheat, and perhaps a shortage of cars. But at the same time there are substantial grievances on the part of the farmers. Every member of the House who represents a

wheat growing constituency in the Northwest will know of cases where cars have gone by day after day, where there are people at an elevator or warehouse who are entitled to cars and cannot get them. What we desire is a law which shall give to each man fair play and no discrimination. There may be practical difficulty in working out the clause, but I do not think any better way can be suggested of attaining the object we have in view. The clause has received very careful consideration.


Hon. Mr.   HAOOAKT@: The hon. minister says that it practically will accomplish what is required. Fancy thirty applicants where there is a forfeiture and every one waiting his turn. The station master has absolute control over the matter and if the first one forfeits his right he passes over him and goes oh with the rest.


Thomas Walter Scott: If we have conditions in future in any way approaching what we had last year there will be no danger of forfeiture. I know of a case last year at a station ten miles north of Regina Where three or four cars were placed on a siding on Sunday night. Before daylight on Monday these cars were all filled. The farmers left home with their loads at midnight and loaded the cars.


Nathaniel Boyd: I am not dreading very much the fear that the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart) has suggested in regard to this. I desire to mention the amendment which I propose to move to clause 54 and which I will hand to the minister. It is in regard to dockage. I propose to add to section 54 the words ' and shall be given the full amount of dockage from their grain if they desire the same.' I explained that merchants who buy grain are In the habit of docking the grain very heavily and then keeping over half of it. It is to prevent this practice that I suggest the amendment.


James Moffat Douglas: I would remind my hon. friend (Mr. Boyd) that the legislation of the North-west Territories effectually stands in the way of this amendment. This matter was discussed at very great length in connection with the Bill with persons well acquainted with the condition of things in the west. The Noxious Weeds Act of the North-west Territories stands in the way of what may be taken as dockage being given back to the individual who owns the grain.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: What are the general provisions of the Noxious Weeds Act ?


James Moffat Douglas: That the Individual shall not be allowed to take the stuff which has been cleaned out of his grain, put it in his conveyance and take it home, because he would scatter the weed seeds all the way.


Thomas Walter Scott: If there are noxious weed seeds in the refuse or small wheat.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is to prevent the spread of noxious weeds t


James Moffat Douglas: Yes, that is the difficulty which Is in the way, and I call the hon. gentleman's attention to it. We certainly have no objection to the provision which he suggests but this is the difficulty in the way of its adoption.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the advantage of having the dockage in the hands of the merchant more than in the hands of the farmer ? Is it not just as liable to be spread in the country in the one case as in the other ?


James Moffat Douglas: It is usually burned.


Robert Laird Borden: If you have a provision requiring it to be burned that is all right.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not know what the provisions of the Noxious Weeds Act of the North-west Territories are, but my recollection of the Manitoba Act is that it is made an offence to allow the tailings to be taken away from the elevator and they are required to be burned.


Nathaniel Boyd: So far as that is concerned the elevators of Manitoba have been selling them right along, and I know of cases last winter where they shipped them out of the country. They have been shipping them to Minneapolis.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: As long as they ship them to Minneapolis it is all right.


Nathaniel Boyd: It is a fact that the elevator men are making an undue profit out of these screenings and I do not think the Act of the territorial legislation should stand in the way of this amendment. If the territorial assembly feels disposed to pass an Act that will prohibit this being done, well and good ; but I do not think it applies to the province of Manitoba under the present statute.


William James Roche: I would ask the hon. minister a question in reference to the form of storage receipt in schedule as to the charges for receiving, cleaning, insurance against loss by fire, handling, storing, and so on. I see it says :
It is provided by law that this charge shall
not exceed	dollars of a cent
per bushel.
Is there a stipulated amount for charges mentioned in the Act ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The amount which the elevator man can charge by this Act is under the regulation of the Governor in Council.


William James Roche: Is it a stipulated amount ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is under the control of the Governor In Council.


William James Roche: I know that the farmers consider that this is an excessive charge, although I am not aware what it is. The resolution passed by this investigating committee suggested that the Act should he amended so as to read that the charges shall not exceed one and three-quarter cents per bushel and that they shall be only one and a quarter cents per bushel where the cleaning is not done.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That would be a proper matter to have to consider. I could not very well put in any fixed rate without inquiring, but I can have the attention of the grain commissioner called to the matter.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Section 33 of the Manitoba Grain Act provides :
The Governor in Council may, before the 1st of September, in each year, and as often as he deems proper, make and promulgate all suitable and necessary rules and regulations for the government and control of public country elevators and warehouses, including flat warehouses, and the receipt, storage, insurance, handling and shipment of grain therein and therefrom, and the maximum rates of charges therefor, and so on.
The Governor in Council has power now, under the Act, to regulate the charges.


Nathaniel Boyd: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce if he would be so kind as to send me a copy of the
amendments that he decides upon.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That you have just submitted ?


Nathaniel Boyd: The amendments that you propose to enact.


Robert Laird Borden: What my hon. friend (Mr. Boyd) means is that if the hon. minister takes into favourable consideration any of the suggestions which have been made he would like to have a copy of the amendments which the hon. minister proposes in accordance with these suggestions.
Bill reported.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 98) to incorporate the Montreal Subway Company.-Mr. McCarthy. t
On section 20, subsection (b),
Mr. BICKERDIKE.: I have an amendment to suggest. I am sorry the promoter of the Bill is not here, but I wish to say that I have had a consultation with some of the promoters of the Bill and they have Horn Mr. SIFTON.
agreed to this amendment with a view of stopping any further opposition, so that the Bill may be able to go through both Houses this session. The amendment reads:
The company shall, within seven months of the passing of this Act, expend on construction work of said subway the sum of $200,000; otherwise the charter will be considered null and void.
The men at the back of this Bill are some of the best men we have in Canada; the Hon. Senator Maekay and others who could build the subway themselves without any outside assistance, but if any accident should happen, so that during the next seven months they do not desire to go on, then it would give some other company an opportunity of advertising a Bill for the next session of parliament, either for a bridge or a tunnel. I am speaking now entirely in the interest of the city of Montreal. We have got to get a bridge or a tunnel at once. I am glad to see some of the members from Montreal here, and I am sure they will back me up in what I say in this regard. We have been waiting for communication between Montreal and the South Shore year after year, and if these people are willing to build this tunnel as they say, without asking the country to assist them in any way, why, of course, we should let them do so, and we should let the bridge people do the same thing under similar conditions. If they are going to build bridges and tunnels to connect Montreal with the South Shore, and not ask the country for subsidies; by all means let them build them, and if possible immediately.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
Mr. BELCOURT.: It is not intended as a pleasure road.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is not a pleasure road no doubt, but I can tell my hon. friend that the farmers on the South Shore are most prosperous; they come every day to the city, and there is a strong feeling in favour of some new communication between the South Shore and the city. That feeling has arisen because they believe the Grand Trunk Railway has not used them liberally enough. They believe that the rates on the Grand Trunk Railway bridge are too high, and so they insist on having a new means of communication. Before this Bill goes through the House, I shall, therefore, insist that the two tunnels will go on together, and I am sure I will be supported in that by all the members from the district of Montreal. Speaking of the amendment just proposed by my hon. friend (Mr. Bickerdike), I may say that I am very glad that he has taken the trouble to consult the promoters of the Bill in Montreal, and I fully agree with him.


Mr. FREFONTAINE.: This question was fully discussed in the Railway Committee, which came to the conclusion that it would exact from these parties a deposit of $50,000 for their good faith when they would submit their plans to the Governor in Council, and also that $100,000 would be spent by them within nine months. I believe that guarantee is amply sufficient unless you want to kill the project. For my part, I am rather inclined in favour of a bridge, and I have been in favour of a bridge for 20 or 25 years. I know that the citizens of Montreal are in favour of a bridge, but in what position are we at the present time? We are iu the position that we are not likely to have any bridge Bill passed during the present session of parliament. The 142$
only bridge Bill that was submitted to the committee seriously was withdrawn, but there remains another Bill which is on the Order paper for the second reading. If the hon. gentleman who occupies the important position of Minister of Public Works in the government of Canada; if he will undertake to support the other Bill which is the second Order of the day, and if he will undertake to give to the citizens of Montreal and to the people on the South Shore some help as regards improved means of communication with the city, I do not know what I would do myself under the existing conditions. But I do not think that it is possible to have the other Bill passed during this session. If prorogation is going to take place next Tuesday or Wednesday, this other Bill cannot go before the committee until Monday, and there is no knowing when it would come back to the House. Although, as I have said, I am not quite favourable to the tunnel sdheme, yet as a representative of Montreal for the past twenty-five years, and knowing the sentiments of the people there, I know that they want that the promoters of any scheme which will give them communication between the two sides of the river, shall have a chance to go on with the execution of the work which they contemplate.
Not a word has been said against the promoters of this enterprise. There are two or three of them who are certainly in a position to build and to carry to a success this enterprise with their own resources. If they are not serious, or if they discover within the next three months, after having put engineers to work to ascertain what is to be done, that it is impossible, with the amount of capital at their disposal, to carry on the work, there will be nothing lost, and there will be opportunity for any serious company to give the necessary notices and come before parliament next session and ask for the necessary legislation to give them the right to build either a tunnel or a bridge. I repeat that all we want is communication between the two shores of the St. Lawrence; and as a citizen of the city of Montreal, interested in the welfare of the city, and knowing the sentiments of the people, I think we should give every possible chance to this company to become incorporated and to start the necessary works. If you impose upon the company conditions which are impossible, you might as well kill the Bill at once, ana tell the people of Montreal to wait until it pleases us to have this communication between the two shores provided. I say this without any hesitation, knowing, as I have said, exactly the sentiments of the citizens of Montreal. Tne amount required to be deposited, $50,000, as a guarantee of good faith, is a better provision than the one suggested by the hon. member for the St. Lawrence division; because If these people are not serious, they will not risk having the $50,000 forfeited,

whereas people who are not serious might say, ' We will go on and get the plans prepared and submit these plans to the government, and after we have done that, we will spend part of the $200,000, and then try to get an extension of time from parliament.' Then they would come here and say to parliament: 'We have had plans prepared at a cost of, say $50,000, and we have spent $30,000 in making soundings and experiments, and we want an extension of time.' Parliament, being always well disposed, would grant the extension of time for another year; and the result would be that the citizens of Montreal and the people on the south shore of the St. Lawrence would be deprived of the incorporation of a serious company, which would have been in a position to go on with the undertaking. I speak feelingly on this matter, not only as a representative of the city of Montreal, but as one interested in the welfare of the people on the south shore: for I may say that the door of political life was opened, to me by the people of my native county of Chambl'y, and 1 have a great deal of sympathy for them. I know what the farmers of the south shore have been suffering for years; I know the sentiment they have towards an enterprise of this kind. When it was decided by this parliament that half a million should be granted to the Grand Trunk Railway Company to enable it to enlarge the Victoria bridge and to make it a general traffic bridge, as was stated at the time, the project was bailed with rejoicing on both sides of the St. Lawrence; but when it was discovered that instead of it being a traffic bridge, it only gave one-fourth tlie advantages which were expected, the people of the south shore were only pacified by the friends of the government telling them that whenever a serious com-pa ny would undertake to build a bridge or to carry out some other scheme to provide communication between the two shores, it would be given the power to do so. If you now refuse this opportunity to this company, and impose upon it conditions which are impossible, and which will prevent people even thinking of undertaking such a work, you will do an injustice to fifteen or twenty counties on the south shore of the St. Lawrence, as well as to the city of Montreal. I have no hesitation in saying that if the hon. member for the St. Lawrence division were not actuated by good motives, and really thought that 'his' amendment would block the enterprise, I do not think he would persist in it; because the clause ns it stands in the Rill before Ihe House affords all the necessary safeguards to the public ; and next session, if these people prove not to be serious in what they undertake, the field will be perfectly open to another company to come before this House and get another charter.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Surely my hon. friend can have no objection to accept the amendment which has been accepted in Montreal by the most influential promoters of the Bill.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: I did not know that before.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend from the St. Lawrence division met to-day the hon. Senator Mackay and Mr. Ross


Robert Bickerdike: Mr. Miles.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I beg pardon-Senator Mackay and Mr. Miles, and both of them have authorized him to move this amendment. Here is the amendment:
The company shall within seven months of the passing of this Act expend on construction works of said subway the sura of $200,000, otherwise the charter shall he considered null and void.


Hon. Mr. HAG  GART@: Does that strike out the necessity of the deposit of $50,000 '!


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. The deposit remains as it is ; but instead of $100,000, which is specified in section 21 of the Bill, the amendment provides that $200,000 shall be spent on construction work. Surely the people of Montreal cannot have any objection to taking every security that it is possible to give. I know that my hon. friend (Mr. Prefontaine) is deeply interested in the welfare of the city of Montreal and the ridings on the south shore; but it has not been by granting charters imprudently that we have served those large interests in the past. We have had on the statute-book for the last ten or twelve years a charter to build a bridge, but it is not built yet. The promoters of fhe undertaking, being substantial men, have approved of the amendment, and under the circumstances, I think it should be accepted.


Mr. CASGRAIN.: Is the sum of $200,000 substituted for the sum of $100,000. which was inserted in the Bill by fhe Railway Committee ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: The Minister of Public Works is entirely mistaken. According to the amendment, the sum of $200,000 is to be spent within seven months after the passage of the Bill, whereas, if I remember rightly, the Railway Committee decided that the sum of $100,000 should be spent within nine months after the approval of the plans and specifications by the Governor in Council. The two provisions are entirely different.
I am sorry to see the opposition of the hon. Minister of Public Works, for I think

it is the duty of the government to sustain the action of the Railway Committee. As the hon. minister says, most respectable men are the incorporators in this Bill. After full discussion, the committee decided that, as an evidence of their bona tides, $50,000 should toe deposited by the parties who were applying-that is by the incorporators- which, in the event of their not going on with the undertaking, will be forfeited to the Crown, and further, that, on the expiry of nine months after the acceptance or approval of the plans by the Governor in Council, $1,000,000 shall have been expended on the undertaking.
Mr. McCarthy. Make it $200,000 if you like.


John Graham Haggart: Make it $200,000 and then I suppose there will be no objection to the Bill. I draw the attention of the hon. member from St. Lawrence (Mr. Bick-erdike) to the fact that this amendment is completely irregular. He has not given notice of it, and canont move it except with the unanimous consent of the House.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I know that.


Robert Bickerdike: I came here to-night to try and get the Bill through, because if we do not get it through to-night it will not go through at all. This is a compromise, which was arrived at yesterday in Montreal, and I ask hon. members to accept it now.


John Graham Haggart: We will do it unanimously, if the hon. member will agree to substitute $200,000 for the $100,000.


Robert Bickerdike: I am quite willing.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: And provide that it be expended on construction work.


Robert Bickerdike: If after the passing of the Bill, when the borings are made, it is found that the company cannot go on, 1 want to give other parties an opportunity to advertise in time to have a Bill introduced next session.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: You can advertise whether you are going on or not.


Robert Bickerdike: No reasonable men would come in unless they be given the time I ask.


John Graham Haggart: Will not the hon. member for St. Lawrence accept the amendment proposed by the promoters of the Bill to have $200,000 substituted for $100,000 V The hon. gentleman must understand that the promoters cannot commence the work until the plans are approved by the government, and they are only given nine months after the approval of the plans for the expenditure of $200,000. There is a forfeiture of $50,000, to which they are subject, and they have besides to expend $200,000 within nine months after the approval of the plans, under penalty of forfeiture of their charter.


Robert Bickerdike: If the hon. gentleman will accept seven months instead of nine months


Mr. COWAN.: There are a lot of Bills behind this, and let us get through with it.


Robert Bickerdike: I want this to go through.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: What the hon. member asks is fairly reasonable.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: Is it the pleasure of the committee to substitute $200,000 for the $100,000 provided in the Bill ?


Mr. SPROULE.: It seems to me that this is too important a Bill to railroad through the committee at the rapid rate at which it is attempted to put it through. We had considerable discussion in the committee over this Bill and a great deal of impatience was shown and a very strong disposition to force it through, whether, in the judgment of many, it was right or wrong. It is a very important undertaking, far reaching in its consequences, and it seems to me that a little delay would be more in, keeping with the best interests of the city of Montreal and the people of that part of the country than to hurry the measure through too rapidly. When this Bill was before the Railway Committee, one of the strongest reasons given in its behalf was the respectability and financial strength of the men whose names appear as its incorporators. But members of parliament, who have been in this House any length of time, have learned to estimate at its proper value this parading of prominent names. We have learned over and over again that these names are simply used for the specific purpose of influencing the House and the committee to get a scheme through, and find out afterwards that the owners of these names had indeed very little to do with it, and very often the charter passes shortly afterwards into the hands of men who are little better than men of straw. Older members do not lay as much stress, as do some of the younger ones, on the importance of these prominent financial names, which are too often lent for the purpose of carrying the Bill through the House. I am not underestimating the financial ability of these men as financiers of Montreal or the Dominion. There is no doubt they command a very large amount of capital. And if their financial wealth were at stake, that would give us a guarantee that they intended to carry the enterprise (through and do not intend to let it pass into other hands. But it is because we know from experience that such is mat always the case and that too often these prominent names are used for the purpose of getting a Bill through the House, and for

that purpose alone, that we do not attach to them the value we otherwise would. It is proposed to make a tunnel under the St. Lawrence, and that suggests the questions whether the scheme is feasible, how much it will cost, when it can be completed, and of what utility it will be when completed. These are the questions we naturally consider in seeking to determine whether it will be wise or otherwise to assist them in putting through this scheme. If we consider what other tunnels have cost and compare them with the proposal in this Bill, we can come to but one conclusion-that the gentlemen who have lent their names to this scheme have taken but little trouble to collect the data which they ought to have for their own guidance and for the use of parliament and of the committee in the discussion of a scheme of this kind. I have a few facts with regard to the cost of the St. Clair tunnel, and this proposed St. Lawrence tunnel, I believe, will be a great deal more expensive. The St. Clair tunnel cost $3,324,000


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I rise to a point of order. Are we going to have a dissertation on the cost of every tunnel in America as part of the discussion of this Bill, when there are twenty Bills on the Order paper awaiting the attention of the committee ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That makes no difference.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: It surely is not germane to the question to discuss the cost of tunnels elsewhere.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: On the question of order, I venture to submit that the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Sproule's) remarks are quite pertinent to the question. It is most important to consider whether this tunnel really will be built, and the information the hon. gentleman is giving is relevant to the question and important in consideration of it. I do not think the point of order is well taken.


Peter Macdonald: I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) is quite within ihis rights.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I was sure you would make such a ruling, Mr. Speaker, for it would be unprecedented to deny the right to present legitimate arguments such as I am presenting in connection with this matter. It must not be forgotten that this can only pass this House by unanimous consent. Any member- has a right to object to the amendment if he desires to do so. The fact that we do not act upon that right shows the indulgence we are inclined to exercise towards the hon. gentleman's scheme.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: Will the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him a question ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: If the promoters accept the condition of the expenditure of $200,000 within nine months and the deposit of $50,000, does not the hon. gentleman think that a sufficient guarantee that these people are in earnest ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would consider it better than the $50,000 alone. But It is not enough to satisfy me that they


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine: How much do you want ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am opposed to the principle of a tunnel, for the reasons that I propose to give to the House. In the first place, I say the cost is very much greater than the promoters of this Bill have estimated it to be. and that would be one of the strongest deterrents to the fruition of the scheme. I was about to say that the St. Olair tunnel, which is a single tunnel with a single track and which is only twenty feet in diameter, which is through clay thirty feet below the water at the lowest point, the approach grade being only two per cent on one side-while this St. Lawrence tunnel is two per cent one side and steeper on the other-cost $3,234,857. Now, if this St. Lawrence tunnel is to give the accommodation to the public the promoters profess a desire to give, it would require not one tunnel but two or three-


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Two tunnels.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This would make the cost at least twice as great as the ,St. Clair tunnel, that is to say, the cost would run up to about $7,000,000, even if it were no greater in length than the St. Clair tunnel.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: What is the length of the St. Clair tunnel ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The open cut on the Canadian side is 3,270 feet; tunnel on the Canadian side, 1,160 feet; tunnel under the river, 2,310 feet; on the American side, 1,810 feet ; open cut on the American side, 2,820 feet-total, 11,370 feet, or 2-23-100 miles. The proposed St. Lawrence tunnel is 4-11-100 miles in length. Thus, besides requiring two tubes, this tunnel is nearly twice as long as the St. Clair tunnel. I think we have every reason to believe that it will be proportionately as costly, and, on that basis, the expense involved will be about $15,000,000. We must take this item of cost into consideration, in deciding whether it is wise or not to give the promoters the right to build this tunnel. For, the existence of this charter, even if the work were not carried out, would have the effect of preventing the building [DOT] of a bridge which, to my mind, would be much better. Now I have the figures here concerning the Washington tunnel in Chicago. That is a dry tunnel. It was built in 1867 for general traffic. But it was very unpopular and was never used to any great extent. We are

told by the promoters of this Bill that this St. Lawrence tunnel would be as useful for traffic as a bridge. Any one who knows anything about tunnels knows that that is perfect moonshine. What benefit would it be to the farmers of the south shore if they have the tunnel built 7 Practically none at all, for they could not use it for general traffic to any great extent. The Washington tunnel was turned over to the' street railway in 1890. It consists of two arches with centre walls, approach grade seven to eight per cent, with a length of open cut of 570 feet and tunnel 930 feet, a total of 1,500 feet. It was very costly, but I need not go into the figures, as that part of it does not bear any relation to this. Now, what is proposed for this St. Lawrence tunnel 7 They propose to build a tunnel open at the north side for 2,500 feet, against 3,370 feet for the St. Clair tunnel. There will be a land tunnel of 6,800 feet. The river tunnel will be 5,500 feet, whereas the river tunnel under the St. Clair is only 2,310 feet. I give these figures to show how much more expensive this one will be and how much more imporant this enterprise will be, than even the St. Clair tunnel which took such a long time to put through. The land on the south side would be 2,630 feet, the open cut would be 4.220 feet; in all the total cut with the tunnel would be 21,700 feet, while the St. Clair tunnel had only 11.370 feet. Now, when these figures are remembered one can understand what it means to build a tunnel under the St. Lawrence down at Montreal. But they are going to double track this tunnel, it is going to be 26 feet wide and 23 feet high. The estimated cost, without the land damages, will be $3,500,000. The cost of the St. Clair tunnel for a single tube was over $3,234,000. You see the enormous disparity between the sizes of the tunnels, and yet the one is to cost about the same as the other. It shows how little time has been spent in making up the estimate, on what slight data a conclusion has been based of the cost of this tunnel. This tunnel would cost at least $13,500,000, and it is to require three years to build it. If we may judge from the rapidity with which these tunnels have been built in the past it is more likely to take four or five years to build it than three years.
Now, it will not give the same accommodation as a bridge would give, and in my judgment a bridge is the only feasible scheme there in the interests of the people, because we want the common people to be able to use it as well as the railway companies. The railway companies can use a tunnel all right but the ordinary foot passenger cannot use it, and the man with a horse and vehicle cannot use it. I asked the question in the Railway Committee, how is the man going there with his produce to get through the tunnel ? It has to be put on a car, horse and all, and carried
through. When you consider the amount of traffic from one side of the river to the other you can understand how many will use it. It will require three tunnels similar to this one to give the same convenience to the people as a bridge would give, and three tunnels at the estimated cost given by the hon. gentleman for this one would cost $10,500,000. And what I have given you with reference to the actual facts of building the St. Clair tunnel justifies the conclusion that instead of its costing $15,000,000 it would cost nearer $20,000,000 or $30,000,000, and I have no doubt it will when it comes to be built.
Now, the time they require to build it in is three years, as against two years for a bridge. We are told, and I think we are justified in believing that a bridge could easily be built inside of two years. But it would be utterly impossible to push on a tunnel at the ordinary progress usually made in building tunnels in anything like that time. For these reasons I am opposed to a tunnel entirely. But if we must have a tunnel, then I want to say, in view of these prominent names that are paraded with their financial strength as a justification for us to give them this charter, that we want the very strongest binding clauses that can possibly be put in to satisfy us that these men are prepared to put their own money into it, to go on at once and build this tunnel and not keep it for speculative purposes and sell out to the first man that comes along. * I am opposed to it in the next place because, considering the gigantic nature of the undertaking, I do not think it is likely to be carried through. I am opposed to it because I do not think we have sufficient data to enable us to determine whether it would be wise for us to pass this Bill. Has there been a boring made in the St. Lawrence river to show what the sub soil is like ? Has there been any engineering investigation; anything more than an ordinary estimate ? Nothing, so far as I know, nothing that was before the committee; so we are really going it blind. I am opposed to it, as I said, because it involves an immense expenditure of money which is not likely to be made inside the next four or five years.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But thes.e gentlemen do not ask us for any money. I want that fact to be kept in mind. The promoters of the Bill told us the other day that they do not ask us for a subsidy.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not taking that into account at all. I am discussing the feasibility of the scheme, the probability of its being carried out, and the importance of it after it is built; and I am drawing a comparison between the value of that scheme to the people both on the north shore and the south shore, and the value of a bridge, and I reach the conclusion in my own mind

that if this tunnel is undertaken it will destroy the probability of a bridge ever being built for a long time to come. These are the points of view from which I am discussing the scheme at the present time. Now, the expenditure on the tunnel is to be very large, and these names are put forward as a reason why it is going to be built. I do not wish to underestimate the value and the financial importance of these names, because I believe they are all respectable men, all men of wealth and men who can control a great deal of money with their influence, if they desire to do so. Therefore if they are bona fide and going to invest their own capital and are not asking parliament to give them any subsidy why, they should have, it is said, an opportunity to build it. But it is because I believe they do not intend to build it that I am speaking against this Bill.


An hon. MEMBER.: How do you know ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am giving reasons why I come to that conclusion. I do not say I know, but I say I am justified in coming to that conclusion for the reasons that I have given. Then again I say, in conclusion, that the tunnel is of no use for ordinary traffic purposes. What are the chief requirements for the ordinary farmer on the south shore ? It is to get over the river cheaply and readily to reach that great and valuable market. Are they going to get there through the tunnel 1 Farmers do not use the St. Clair tunnel, they do not use any other tunnel for that purpose that I know of. Why ? Because they cannot use it with safety, they cannot use it with convenience, they cannot use it without very great danger, and they are not likely to use it at all. We are told that these tunnels, filled as they are with trains passing back and forth, with smoke, gas and foul air, not lighted, not properly ventilated, that they cannot be used by the ordinary travelling public at all. What benefit will it be to the farmer ? I am talking on behalf of the poor farmer that wishes to get to this market. I spoke on exactly the same lines when the Victoria bridge was being widened and I did my level best then to get a clause put in that Bill that would protect the travelling public against exorbitant charges I was fought on that line by members who advocated the scheme. And what was the result after the bridge was built ? Why we had the representatives of the people coming back and saying that the charges were most exorbitant. It is in view of that experience that I desire to take time by the forelock and not allow the poor habitants to be bound up for all time to come without being able to take advantage of the convenience which they desire for the purpose of getting to that important market. I say If that tunnel is built it will be of no value to the farmer on the south shore, but if a bridge is built it will be of immense value.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish the government to keep in their hands the right to reduce the tolls, and to say they shall not be so onerous that the ordinary habitant cannot take advantage of the tunnel. For these reasons I am opposed to the tunnel in toto. But if this House must pass this Bill, then I want to see it passed with the most stringent provisions that will guarantee the building of it at an early day, because as long as this Bill remains it will prevent the possibility of any corporation taking up the scheme of building a bridge across that river, which would be by all means the most valuable communication for the poor people who require it the most.


Mr. BALL.: Before this Bill is carried I would like to make a few remarks as representing one of the south shore counties, the county of Nicolet.
I live in the town of Nicolet. The Quebec Southern road is going to pass through Longueuil and then try to get across, and as one interested, I would like if something else should be built there besides a tunuei. I am getting a little old and I would like to cross over either by a tunnel or a bridge before I die. Why is it that there is a discussion to-day about a tunnel ? There was no talk of a tunnel a few months ago. There was only talk of building the Montreal bridge. Everything was prepared for the building of a bridge ; soundings were made, plans drawn and capitalists were ready to undertake the work. I am told that the owner of the charter had an offer for the sale of that charter. There were capitalists from the United States who desired to purchase it but they could not succeed in the negotiation. I will tell hon. gentlemen why. I was surprised the other night to hear my hon. friend from Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux) say that he was in favour of a bridge, but after making a close investigation he found that a man by the name of Armstrong, was interested in the scheme. Well, it was not the case. He was playing upon the word. There was an Armstrong interested but it was not Mr. O. N. Armstrong, as he wanted to make hon. gentlemen think it was. Mr. Prefontaine


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.


Georges Ball: The hon. member for Terrebonne and the hon. member for Maison-neuve (Mr. PrCfontaine). As he was not acting as a member, I have a right to name him. I name him as a partner in this project. Have I a right, Mr. Chairman, to name a man when he is a partner and when I am speaking about his affairs and not speaking about him as a member of this House ?


Peter Macdonald: You can suit yourself.


Georges Ball: Mr. Prfifontaine


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.


Georges Ball: I will not mind you while I am with the Chairman.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Georges Ball: Don't carry it yet. I have five minutes more.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Time, time.


Georges Ball: No time. Mr. Prefontaine-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order, order.


Georges Ball: I intended to say that as the Chairman permits me to say that. He had shares in this project. He had no shares as a member of this House, but lie had shares as an individual in the bridge. Air. Armstrong had shares individually in that bridge some years ago. But four years ago he transferred these shares to his son. Air. Edgar N. Armstrong. They look a little like each other, but they are not the same individuals. Mr. Armstrong had indorsed notes for the Baie des Chaleur Railway Company. He was the endorser for about $60,000 of notes at the Banque Ville Marie. Everyone knows, I suppose, the former Banque Ville Marie. These notes were sold at auction and they went at one cent on the dollar, and Air. PrSfontaine bought the notes for $600.
Some hon. A1EMBERS. Order, order.


Georges Ball: The hon. member for Mai-sonneuve bought the notes. They went at a cent on the dollar, and the hon. member for Terrebonne sued Mr. C. N. Armstrong and got judgment against him. Later on he sued his son to nullify the transfer and to retain the shares in the hands of Air. C. N. Armstrong. The court dismissed his case; he could not seize the shares, so he relinquished the whole thing and made an arrangement with other parties-I do not know if I can name that word-schemer- who made application for a tunnel and for a bridge so as to kill that charter that had only to be revived and in regard to which all the preliminary work was done. They tried and with success to kill the charter that only required reviving.
The hour for private Bills having expired, the committee rose and reported progress.



YUKON TERRITORY ACT AAIEND-MENT.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 119), further to amend the Yukon Territory Act.- The Minister of the Interior.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: The hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) furnished me with a draft of some amendments to the clause which I read when we were in the committee on the Bill before. I see no objection to the draft which was given me by my hon. friend except one. Inadvertently the words ' commissioner in council ' are inserted.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.
The A1INISTER OF THE INTERIOR. Subsection (e) reads as follows :
Provide! always, however, that no ordinance made under this Act imposing a tax or royalty o- any matter relating thereto shall be, or be deemed to he retroactive, &e.
My hon. friend will see that that clause is not practicable, because it will apply to all the grants which are already made, and so will be retroactive. At present we have, under the Dominion Lands Act, imposed a royalty of 5 per cent, and we intend to abolish that royalty and impose a general tax of 2} per cent. We are asking for this legislation because we intend to collect in another way, and we do not think we have power to make provision for the collection without legislative authority. If we abolish the present royalty and undertake to fix a royalty under this Act, subject to the provision that it shall not be retroactive, I am afraid they will be able to say that they have escaped from the royalty which had been levied on them before, and that under this Act we could not impose a royalty upon them. We cannot retroactively apply anything which would be any higher than 5 per cent, and that, no doubt, will meet the object which my hon. friend has in view. It would not affect the rights of any person who has acquired rights under contract from the government.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not think the word ' retroactive ' would have the meaning the hon. gentleman suggests.


The AIINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It might not, but it would be very unfortunate if it were so held.


Robert Laird Borden: There have been some questions pending.


The AIINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The last section is quite sufficient to protect any questions pending, which are all in the shape of suits in the court. It is in respect to past transactions that the questions have arisen, and the royalty of 2i per cent would be a new transaction. There is absolutely nothing in the questions between the government and any person in respect to the royalty, except a few suits that were brought on the ground that we had collected royalty in 1897 when we were not supposed to do so; that our officers commenced too soon to collect royalty. That is the only question pending, and that is before the Exchequer Court.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it not a very usual principle that no provision of this kind should be made retroactive ?


The AIINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: But if we abolish the 5 per cent tax and put another tax in place of it, we might be I in the position that there was a limitation in this clause, and it might be held that we could only apply the tax subsequently.

That might not be the case, hut I do not think that the government should take any chances.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not wish to leave the legislation in any uncertainty that might make the future collection of taxes doubtful. I am as anxious to avoid that as the hon. gentleman. But is not that matter made perfectly plain under the provisions of the Interpretation Act, which I presume would apply to ordinances made under the provisions of a statute. The hon. gentleman is aware that under the provisions of the Interpretation Act, when we repeal a statute the new provisions shall take effect, and every matter and thing shall be carried on just as if the amending Act had originally been in force instead of the repealed Act. Would not that prevent any such difficulty as the minister suggests?
The'MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I do not think so.


Robert Laird Borden: Why could it not be made perfectly plain by adding a proviso to the effect that this shall not in any way affect the substitution of the new tax for the old tax?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: All we get power to do is to levy a royalty. That is going to affect all, whether the leases are issued at the present time or any past leases or subsequent leases. We intend as soon as this legislation becomes law to pass an ordinance levying a royalty on the gold output of the Yukon Territory, and we intend immediately before doing so to repeal the present Orders in Council, under which the royalty of 5 per cent is collected. We want the legislation to put us in such a position that there can be absolutely no question about it. There is no mine at present in the Yukon which claims in any way to be exempt from royalty except under the exemptions which the royalty Orders in Council provide at the present time. What we have decided to do is that instead of the exemption and a royalty of 5 per cent, there shall be a general tax of 2J per cent. We do not want any doubt to exist as to our right to do that. I can assure my hon. friend that there is no question at the present time except with respect to certain claims which arise out of the Act of 1897. We desire to have the legislation in such a position that there cannot be any possible ground for litigation after the Order in Council has passed.


Robert Laird Borden: The new tax will take effect from the date of the new Order in Council ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Is not the government perfectly protected by providing in the new Order in Council that the old tax shall continue in force until a particular


Clifford Sifton: day. after which the new tax shall take effect ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think so. The very fact that there is doubt about it is the reason we are asking for legislation. We unquestionably have power to impose a royalty under the 'Dominion Lands Act; but I doubt if we have power to impose it in the form in which we desire to do it. that is. as a royalty to be collected at the boundary line instead of at the mine. We have to take certain proceedings in order to collect, the royalty in that way, which we have not the power to do by Order in Council without special legislation, and that is the reason why we are asking for this legislative power. If we could justify it under the old law. this Act would not be necessary. There is a question of some hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue involved, and if we lost even half a million dollars, we could not go back on our legislation if we made a mistake or took any chances. The rest of the clause, as my hon. friend has drawn it, I am quite agreeable to accept; and I think I can suggest what would perhaps meet my liou. friend's wishes and not incur any danger, that is. to add to subsection ' a ' a clause like this :	Imposing a tax or
royalty not exceeding 5 per cent thereof on gold and silver the output of the mines of the territory, to be levied from and after the date of the ordinance. That could not be the subject of any doubt. It could not be retroactive.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that would assist.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I would like to point out to the hon. minister that the last subsection of the amendment only applies to suits now pending. If it is to have the effect he thinks it ought to have, it should have words added which would include any cause of action which has not yet begun.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We will make it read : ' Any cause of action now accrued or any matter or suit now pending in any court.'


Robert Laird Borden: There is one other matter I would like to mention. Under section 2 of this Bill, the commissioner in council has the same powers of legislation with respect to the Yukon territory, which the government of the North-west Territories have with respect to the North-west Territories. Then under another clause the Governor in Council has the power to make certain ordinances respecting the Yukon Territory, and I would like to know whether or not these powers conflict in any way.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: A clause has been drawn by the Department of Justice providing that in case of conflict the ordinances of the Governor in

Council will prevail. As matters are at present, there will be very little necessity for the Governor in Council taking action. That would only happen in some special emergency, and in case of conflict, in order to avoid unnecessary litigation, we provide that the ordinances of the Governor in Council shall prevail. Of course we have the power of vetoing any ordinances, and the effect of the clause will be simply to avoid any unnecessary litigation.


Robert Laird Borden: That is to say there is a power of veto which can be ex-, ercised. I have one more suggestion ; would the hon. gentleman have any objection to qualifying clause 6 by adding some such provision as we have added to clause 3 1


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are not giving them anything which they have not at present practically. The only thing we could add would be a clause similar to what they use in the American States, providing that there shall be no interference with vested rights, but we are simply following the legislation in connection with the North-west Territories, and no difficulty has arisen there. They simply deal with questions of property and civil rights of a local kind.


Robert Laird Borden: I am inclined to think that there is a clause which covers that objection.
Bill, as amended, reported; read the third time, and passed.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Charges of management-Additional sum required for clerical assistance in connection with the issue and redemption of Dominion notes, $1,000.
['Yes.\nSome resolutions reported.']
The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We had to take a supplementary vote for the current year, making our appropriation for this year $7,300. We are asking now an appropriation which will make the vote for next year $8,000. This is owing to the fact that the increase of circulation makes necessary additions to the clerical staff.


Mr. WILSON.: You are saving that much interest.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought these Dominion notes were issued by the American Bank Note Company.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My hon. friend is confusing this with the item of printing. The notes are printed and supplied to us by the American Bank Note Company, the contractors. But, however great may be our confidence in that company, we would hardly entrust them with the signing and issuing of these notes. This money is to pay for clerical assistance in countersigning the notes and superintending the issue. This is work largely performed by young 'ladies who receive, I am sorry
to say, not very large salaries-from $400 to $600.
Civil government-Department of Railways and Canals-To provide for the promotion of F. A. Dixon to the rank of chief clerk, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $1,800.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose that in the amount already voted for salaries, the salary of this gentleman is included. You are voting it again, except that there is here, I suppose, an increase. W'hat becomes of the amount already voted ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: While there are two votes, they represent but one salary. Perhaps it would be sufficient to vote only the increase. The Minister of Railways and Canals has placed it in this form. Of course care would be taken that there is only one salary.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Could not the word be added that would make it clear ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The
point is that this salary has already been provided for. But the object here is to promote this officer.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: But could not you add some words such as ' this sum to be in full of salary,' or something like that ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The
other could be dropped on concurrence. I suppose ; at the same time there is a little difficulty in that. I can give the House the assurance that it is not the intention to pay more than one salary. But I would not like to change the vote in the absence of the minister. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) wishes to have the.item stand, there will be no objection.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think this is a very good way of putting the appropriation. Perhaps it would be better to let it stand.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Very well, let it stand until the Minister of Railways arrives.
Item allowed to stand.
Civil government-Department of Trade and Commerce-To provide for one senior second-class clerk, $1,100.


Robert Laird Borden: Is this an additional clerk, and if so, what is the occasion for the increase ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This is made necessary by the fact that the Department of Trade and Commerce is taking over work from the Department of Inland Revenue, such as the inspection of staples and the grain inspection.


Robert Laird Borden: I have not observed any corresponding decrease in the Inland Revenue Department.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: But,
1 without this change, there might have been

an increase in the Department of Inland Revenue.


Robert Laird Borden: But I suppose there would have been an explanation of that. Otherwise, the reason for increasing one department seems a good reason for decreasing the other.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If any of those items is objected to it must stand until the minister to whose department it relates is present.
Auditor General's oiBee-To provide for the salary of a junior second-class clerk, eontin-gencies, clerical and other assistance; printing and stationery, $3,600.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Auditor General requires extra assistance, and we are glad to give it to him. He has been rather sharply criticised for not doing enough; I think he is disposed to do a little more and make his book a little larger.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Is this additional clerk intended to keep a record of the numerous times in which the Treasury Board overrules the Auditor General ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Perhaps that may be included among his duties.
Department of Public Works-To provide for the salary of ore first-slass clerk R. C. Des-rochers, assistant secretary, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act. $1C0.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Mr. Desrochers is an old and valuable employee whom I have just promoted.


Robert Laird Borden: But $100 a year is a very small salary.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, but this is an increase.


Robert Laird Borden: The way it reads in the resolution, it is to provide a salary. I thought he was only getting $100 a year.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He has been promoted. The balance of his salary is paid in some other way.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Borden) is right in his criticism. The item should read ' to provide for increasing his salary.'
To provide for an increase of salary for S. E. O'Brien, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Serv ce Act, $100.	,


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Mr. O'Brien has just been promoted to the position of first-class clerk, and he is at the same time secretary of the Ottawa Improvement Commission. In view of the large amount of work he is doing the government has thought it only fair to give him this increase of salary. He has been 12 or 15 years in the service. We have asked him to act as secretary of the commission; he does that work at night.


Hon. Mr. FIELDING.: Yukon public buildings, $38,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I move to reduce that item to $34,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
['I move to reduce that item to $34,000.']
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The details of this work are as follows : Administration building, filling up swamp and making sidewalk, $6,000; post office, filling swamp and grading, $5,000; furniture, $1,000; government house, filling in and fencing sidewalk, $3,000; court house, $2,.000; mining inspectors' offices in four places, $15,000; furniture. This will be all. I pledge myself not to ask for any more money for this purpose. All these items have been discussed with Mr. Commissioner Ross and have been carefully considered. They will complete the erection and equipment of public buildings out there.


Uriah Wilson: Will the revenue from the Yukon pay all this money we are spending this year ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes. Without reference to a particular year, the expenditures in the Yukon have been less than our revenue up to the present date. I am not quite sure as to any particular year, but the aggregate expenditure is less than the aggregate of our receipts In the Yukon up to the present. The Minister of the Interior has announced that he is going to make a reduction in the royalty. We are hopeful that even with the reduced rate, we shall continue to receive enough to pay all the expenses. The very fact that we have received already a larger sum than we have expended Is fair ground why we should reduce the royalty; because, while we are anxious to make the Yukon pay for the Yukon, we are not desirous of making a profit out of it. We are hopeful that under the new system for the collection of the royalty at the reduced rate, it will still yield us a liberal revenue, enough to meet all the expenses.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 

[Stage Direction]
I telegraphed Mr. Bertrand and he replied saying that Louise Collinet and her husband had been dismissed because they had declined to obey orders. That is nil I know about the case.
Robert Laird Borden: I do not know what explanation the resident architect offers of his letter in winch he says :
You will continue therefore, to he at the service of Mr. Justice Dugas, and act under his guidance for any work which you shall be required to Jo as matron of the court house.
You will arrange with the judge for your meals, which, under any circumstances, must not be taken within the court house.
What had these people to do with Judge Dugas in regard to their meals ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They were transferred from the Department of the Interior to the Department of Public Works, and up to that date they had been paid only, respectively, $80 and $60 per month. Later on, they were 'given additional salary, but they were supplied with lodgings and rations. Later on again they did not get lodgings or rations. Then they were placed on the same footing as oilier charwomen and caretakers, the wife receiving $150 a month and being free to arrange for her meals anywhere she liked. I apprehend that she made an arrangement with Mr. Justice Dugas to board at his place, and it looks very much as if she had paid her board to Mr. Justice Dugas. I am not here to defend the judge. It is not my business. I state the facts as I understand them. It is not my business to defend that arrangement. I have nothing to do with that. All I want to state is that my department followed towards these people the ordinary course. As to the arrangement with Judge Dugas, it is for him to say whether it is proper or not. I have nothing to do with that.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not see an explanation of the order given by the chief architect to tills matron that she should be at the service of Mr. Justice Dugas. He does not explain that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, he explains that in his report. The mounted police had arranged that the caretaker and charwoman would take care of Mr. Justice Dugas' lodging rooms. He was in the mounted police apartments then. AVlien he went to other quarters, the same arrangement continued. Rightly or wrongly, it continued. But, it won't happen again, lfecause. thank God, I am getting rid of the whole thing. The commissioner of the Yukon will settle that himself. I took good care when I found out that there was a Yukon government, to wash my hands of the whole thing.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I suppose that this report of Mr. Fuller simply means that Judge Dugas for two years, or until the new court house was built, lived in the old court house. Louise Collinet and her husband were, the one caretaker and the other charwoman in the court house, their duties being to keep the court house clean and 'attend to the various duties of caretaker and matron, at the same time attending to Judge Dugas, who was an inmate of the court house. They lived in the court house, and so long as they were allowed to do that, they received salary and their rations. When the new court house was built, new quarters were

found for the judge, and these people were given, instead of salary and rations, a salary of $150 and $160, respectively, a month, and they had to provide for meals wherever they could get them. It seems to me that is as plain as anything could be, and I do not see where the wrong is.


Robert Laird Borden: That would be an explanation to a certain extent. The hon. gentleman is full of information on this subject, and perhaps he would explain the statement: you will arrange with the judge for your meals.
Mr.' BELCOURT. I cannot speak of an arrangement of which I know nothing, but 1 can understand the report which I have heard read.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I can only say that that order does not stand good now; it is all over.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We look with considerable suspicion on these items because every expenditure made there is enormously high and we are told that wages are dear.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: Five times what it is here.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When we asked for information we were told that the government was obliged to pay $20 a cord for wood, but I have a Dawson newspaper here which declares that the wood which was furnished to the government at $20 a cord was being bought by private parties at $6. That is enough to excite suspicion. We were told last year that all the buildings were completely furnished, but now we have $24,000 for odds and ends to complete the furnishing of these buildings.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That covers the building of four mining offices, levelling the ground, fencing and so on.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are always told that everything is dear there, but letters from friends and the local newspapers give us contrary information. It is declared that the supplies are bought at exorbitant prices by the government, or there is a heavy rake-off for the middle man.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Public tenders were called for the supply of that wood, and the lowest tenderer was $11 per cord, and then it had to be cut. That cost $4 per cord. I have in my hand the same paper that the hon. gentleman has and the price of wood quoted there at $6, is for wcod.in the bush without cutting. However, public tenders were called for this wood and the lowest was accepted.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have here a Dawson paper of April 5th.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have the same paper here.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This paper says :
The government paid $20 per cord for wood. The contract was not let out by tender because very few here could supply it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is not true.
Mr. SPROULE-(reading) :
Why isn't some official decent and honest enough to tell the Minister of Public Works that all! thie wood was bought by a middleman for from $6 to $10 per cord; that the wood merchants have delivered it all winter by the cord for from- $10 to $12 retail; that there is a divvy of from $6 to $10 per cord-that has to be paid. There are very few here who supply the wood ? White & Eaton will supply all the government wood at $8 per cord. Alex. Prudhomme, Jeff Davidson, Dan Mathesom or a half dozen other responsible men will fill the contract for even less. Will the man who supplied this wood to the government tell us his name and what price he received and bow much he * cut up ' to get the contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That man Prudhomme, whose name is mentioned, tendered at $13 a cord not cut.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I may say that I have a letter from a gentleman whom I believe to be reliable and truthful and he corroborates this information. In face of that we are justified in believing that either a very high price was paid for that wood or that there was a rake-off to some person. At all events the government seems to he paying enormously higher prices than are paid by private individuals for the same article.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not oue word to add except that 1 hold in my hand a report from Mr. Fuller, giving me the names of the tenderers-public tenders having been asked for.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the miuister state how many tenders were received, from whom received, and the amount of the tenders ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: With the greatest pleasure. The report is as follows :
Memo.
Purchase of 600 cords of fire wood for the public buildings, Dawson City, Y.T., maintained by the Department of Public Works (not including any of the North-west mounted police buildings) for thie season of 1901-1902.
Public tenders were called for on the 0th July-all tenders to he in by 1 o'clock on the 20th July, 1901.
Specifications called for sawn wood, spruce or birch not cotton wood.
Wood to be in 16 foot lengths delivered on government reserve, 'Dawson city, not later than 10th September, 1901.
Following list of tenders received.

C.	C. MaKay	$15 00 per cord.R. Creelman	
14	50	"
Yukon Fuel Co. (L. L. James
Man)	
12	00	"James Hart	
12	10	"R. M. IXilgex	
12	50	"Patrick Keys	
13	00	"J. Luck	
11	50	"Canadian Yukon Lumber Companx^-	(lowest) 11 00	"J. H. Davidson	
13	20	"James Williamson	
12	45	"D.	A. Matherson	
18	00	"


Dwight H.: 
Alex.   J.@: Prudhomme	
13	99	"H.	M. Hemming	
13	00	"
Contract was awarded to lowest tenders, Canadian Yukon Lumber Company, $11 per cord.
Sawing, Splitting and Piling.
Two tenders received.
Joseph Morgan, $4 per cord. Mr. Foley, to cut only, $3.50 per cord. To cut, split and pile, $5 per cord. The lowest tender was taken, viz., Joseph Morgan.
Then there was the delivery, which was done by ourselves, and that cost $2.50 per cord. [DOT]


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much does this bring up the price to, all told ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: $17.50-$11 per cord ; cutting, splitting and piling, $4 ; delivery at various places, $2.50 ; making $17.50 at public tender.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What was the first price for ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: For the wood 16 feet long. Then it had to be cut and split and delivered at different places on the government reserve.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Tile minister told us the wood was good value at $20 a cord. If we believe this statement, there is certainly a wonderful difference in the price the government are paying and the price private individuals are paying.


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: What else could I do ? Public tenders were asked !


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I want the,hon. minister to allow me to say this, that in the face of the information given here, the denial that the contract was let by public tender, and the statement that wood was being sold at $6 a cord and upwards, we are justified in making the inquiry ; and after the minister has made the explanation he lias, that the contract was given by public tender, and that the wood cost so much, I am not saying that he did more or less than he should have done ; bat It is well to have that information, because it relieves our mind of the suspicion that there was a job somewhere.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would be more than surprised if there was anything dishonest in this transaction, because the architect is a most honourable young man.


Robert Laird Borden: In looking over the expenditure in connection with Yukon public buildings for the past year, I observe that some of the practices which have prevailed in regard to Mr. Justice Dugas have not by any means been confined to him. For example, we find that for the residence of Mr. Justice Craig $494 has been paid for electric lighting, $759 for fire wood and $49.50 for installing the electric light. These charges are as open to criticism and objection as similar charges with regard to Mr. Justice Dugas, and I desire to repeat the statement I. made the other night that it would be just as right for the Minister of Public Works to provide at the public expense residences for himself and the Minister of Finance.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am responsible, of course ; but I want to state again that this was not my own personal policy ; but the government decided for a time to erect residences for the judges. We found it was too expensive, and in the meantime we paid for their rentals and the maintenance of their houses. Whether it was right or wrong, of course 1 am fully responsible, but let it be understood that it is not my personal responsibility alone.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not criticising the hon. gentleman ; I am criticising the government, and I am under-stating the matter. Suppose the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Finance, in addition to the salaries they enjoy as servants of this government, were allowed $3,000 or $5,000 for living expenses, and in addition took money voted for public buildings iu Ontario and with it provided themselves with residences here in Ottawa, furnished those residences, and paid for coal and electric lights for themselves : they would be in exactly the same position as the two judges, the Gold Commissioner and the Commissioner of the Yukon. I think I am correct in saying that the Gold Commissioner had an allowance for living expenses. That is correct, is it not ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think it is.


Robert Laird Borden: I find that $3,826.15 was expended on his residence.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand that some of our officers were for a time lodged over a public building. That may have been the case in this instance, _ though I do not know positively that it'was.


Robert Laird Borden: If they were lodged over a public building, I do not see

that that necessarily implies that the country should pay for their fuel and lighting. We find the same condition of things with regard to the Commissioner of the Yukon. If I am not mistaken, he had an allowance for living expenses, and yet no less than $0,209.8& was charged in conection with his residence.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sure mv hon. friend will agree with me that it is just as right for this government to lodge the Commissioner of the Yukon Territory as it is to lodge the Lieutenant-Governor of the North-west Territories. We have just completed the erection of a residence for the Commissioner, and it is only right that we should furnish it. He represents Canada there. He occupies a high position.	.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: You do not furnish the Lieutenant-Governor of Nova Scotia with living expenses. You give him a salary of $9,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But my hon. friend must not lose sight of the fact that the provinces supply their own Lieutenant-Governors with all the furniture they require.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I venture to say that the Lieutenant-Governor of Nova Scotia does more entertaining in a day than the Commissioner of the Yukon is called on to do in a year ; and this is the purpose for which living expenses are given. When we give a man a salary in this country that is supposed to cover what his services are worth. We are not supposed to give him iu addition, in a hap-hazard manner, a living allowance and furnish besides a residence and light it and heat it. We furnish a residence and its lighting and heating to each of our lieutenant-governors, and we might be expected to do the same in the case of the Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, as holding a somewhat similar representative position, but we do not besides give them living allowances. What does this iudge do with his salary ? Does he pocket it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend must not lose sight of the fact that for a time the judge in the Yukon Territory had not a residence supplied by the government. We have just completed his residence, and it was before that was completed, I suppose, that we were giving him that allowance.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: It seems to me a very inequitable proceeding to give a judge of the Yukon such extraordinary emoluments, which are denied judges In the older provinces, who have no doubt to maintain larger establishments. In Nova Scotia you limit a judge to a salary of about $4,000 or $5,000, and I am bound to say that the man whom you sent out to the Yukon is not equal in


Robert Laird Borden: education, training or social position to the judges in the older provinces. Yet you make a pet of this man, you give him a larger salary, you give besides a living allowance of $3,000, and you furnish him with a residence and its lighting and heating. You furnish him also with men servants and maid servants, and treat him as if he were a prince. That seems to me extraordinarily unjust, especially in view of the fact that you have refused to increase the salaries of the judges in Nova Scotia a mere $1,000. Surely this thing never grew up by hap-hazard, but must be based on some principle. Upon what principle are these large extras based ? I do not want to fancy that this country is run on the boodle principle, but it is very hard to account for this state of affairs. Here is a man who, I do not imagine, was selected for the position he holds-for after all he is merely a magistrate out there-because of any exceptional ability or training, who is no doubt an ordinary man, and yet he is treated in a manner in which no judge is Heated in this country, no matter how eminent iu the profession lie may be. That certainly requires some explanation. Here is an item for Judge Dugas' residence $4,000, salary $5,000, living allowance $3,000, some $12,000, which would probably pay the salaries of half the bench in Nova Scotia. There must be something very wrong in this state of affairs, and the hon. minister should explain on what principle these items were allowed. It has beeii pleaded that the opposition are blame-able for not having vigorously protested against these items. AVe are told that we should not have allowed them to pass. No doubt I am to blame myself for not having investigated the matter, but the hon. minister can hardly hope to escape responsibility by any plea of that kind. It is the government, and not the opposition, who are responsible for every dollar of public expenditure. We are told that the living expenses in the Yukon are extraordinarily high. AVell, I would undertake to say that they are not much heavier in Dawson City than in Victoria or Vancouver. AVhy should they be ? You can reach Dawson City in four days' travel from Victoria or Vancouver. There is a line of railway completed, besides a line of boats well equipped, over which you can get all the provisions you require, and you can buy them in eastern Canada at the same prices as can the people of Victoria or Vancouver. The only difference in price between Dawson City and Victoria or Vancouver is the cost of transportation from the latter ports to the Yukon. And if you have a telegraphic service and a boat service, and a railway service, all so perfect, the additional cost of transportation must be very low. I would venture to say that this whole excuse of the extra cost of living will not bear investigation. I am quite convinced that if we were to telegraph to Dawson City for the

quotations there of sugar and flour and the other necessaries of life, you would not find them much higher than in the east. Why, here are members of parliament getting their little indemnity of $1,500 per session, and ministers of the Crown having to put up with a salary of $8,000 per year. I pity the lion. Minister of Public Works.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: You are right there.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: That lion, minister occupies a most inferior position compared with Judge Dugas. He only gets a tuppenny-ha'penny salary of $8,000, while the judge out in the Yukon draws some $13,000. It seems to me that the minister should resign as a protest against the gross injustice of' his treatment.


Mr. McEWEN.: He ought to go out there as judge.
9Ir. MORIN. He should discharge the judge and take his position.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I do not think that the lion. Minister of Public Works could have known what a soft snap there was out in the Yukon, or he would not have remained here in the position he now holds. I am going to find out all about this story of the extra cost of living in Dawson City. I do not believe that to-day there is very much difference between the cost of living there and elsewjiere. My opinion is borne out by tliis letter, in which it appears that this judge is keeping a boarding house, and a very cheap kind of boarding house at that. I have a notion to go out there this summer for a little trip and learn how he runs this boarding house. Forty dollars a month, he wanted to charge his caretaker, for board The cost of living cannot be very great when he can board a man for $40 per month.
I have been paying three times that all winter myself, and have not lived in any great luxury. It seems to me, therefore, that according to the judge's own estimate, this whole story about the cost of living in the Yukon is unfounded. What we want to do is to scale his salary down to that we give other judges, and cut off all this nonsense. All these extras must have been given for some reason other than that disclosed in these items. There must be some other principle that governs this expenditure. Why load this man down with such extraordinary favours and be so penurious with judges in the older provinces, who are called on to do infinitely more work, and work that requires considerably more knowledge, and ability What does he do with his $3,000 living allowance ? Does he found a school or give it to charity ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The only explanation I can give is that I am asking $34,000 for the Yukon public buildings and not a dollar for the judge. My hon. friend is quoting items that are
paid and on which we cannot go bacli. We cannot get the money back. I am not asking anything for the Department of Justice. I do not belong to the legal profession, and do not want to be responsible for the misdeeds of lawyers. Let them defend themselves here. Judge Dugas is not under me, and I am not asking for any item to be fluid to him. My hon. friend, in talking about our salaries, thinks that the ministers of the Crown are not well enough paid. H ell. if lie and his friends desire that our salaries should be raised, I would not object. We are not in it at all, and if Mr. Dugas is not better paid than we are, I pity him. My hon. friend is unfair, no doubt unwittingly and unknowingly, in his remarks about the salary and living expenses of Justice Dugas and Justice Craig. I am sure that living expenses there are \ cry high to-day. And I have asked my secretary to telegraph to Dawson City for the prices of the necessaries out there just now.
lion. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) If my hon. friend from Colchester goes out to that country, I hope he will call upon that judge and ascertain from him personally the treatment he has given to his housekeeper.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: I hope my hon. friend f rom Colchester (Mr. Gourley) will not feel offended if I say that the only really sensible tiling he has said is that he is going out there to find out. I think it would have been better if he had found out first and then had spoken.


An hon. MEMBER.: You did not do that.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: That is exactly what I did do. I am speaking because I did find out. I was in the Yukon, and I learned enough to convince me that a good many of the statements that my hon. friends have made are absolutely wrong. As I understand it, and I think every hon. gentleman understands it in the same way, Judge Dugas, the commissioner of the Yukon, the gold commissioner, and a number of other officers, went out with the understanding that the government would provide them with lodging, living allowance, and salary,
I think every hon. gentleman who was in the last parliament, understood that. The hon. member for Colchester has told us that a salary of $10,000 or $12,000 in the Yukon is something that ought to be scaled down to the level of- what is paid to an ordinary magistrate in Ottawa or Nova Scotia. I do not mean anything offensive when I say that that is nonsense of the worst kind. I had personal experience of two months out there, and I know that living is five times what it is here in the east. If we pay a judge a salary, living allowance and lodging, making a total of $12,000, he is getting what would amount here to about $2,400 in the east. I am prepared to give the House my assurance



from personal Investigation and personal experience that the cost of living in the Yukon is live times what it is here. I was sorry, when I was in Dawson last summer, to see that Judge Dugas and Judge Craig were lodged in houses that I do not think would be acceptable to men here who are earning $1,000 a year.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: They are saving their money.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: No, they are not saving their money. The house in which Judge Dugas lived had two bedrooms besides his own, and cost him $1,800 a year. I know also that a law office ten feet by twelve in a small wooden building in the city of Dawson actually cost $200 a month. If my hon. friend from Colchester accepts these statements on my assurance, 1 do not think lie will consider these salaries exorbitant. My hon. friend says he can go to Dawson in three or four days. If the accuracy of his other statements is to be measured by that, it will be plain that the hon. gentleman does not know what he is talking about. Under the most favourable conditions, making close connections at every point, you cannot go to Dawson within eleven or twelve days.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: You mean from here. I was speaking of going from Victoria.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: You cannot go from Victoria in less than seven or eight days. Why, it takes three or four days between Victoria and Skagway and then three or four from Skagway to Dawson. I am glad my hon. friend from Colchester is going out 1here to find out about these matters.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I think the hon. gentleman who knows and- does not tell us is about as bad as the one who does not know. The hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Bel-court) has assured us that he knows about the cost of living in the Yukon and gives in proof of it the cost of renting a law office. That, I suppose, is what the judge is supposed to keep his table on. The hon. gentleman having had an experience, lie is evidently anxious the House should know about it, but if he is to discuss the question, he should tell us something about the cost of living in Dawson. He should tell us what flour, beef, bacon, tea and some of the other articles of every day diet cost out there, and we, being fair mathematicians, dan calculate the matter for ourselves. I am inclined to think there is not so much exaggeration in what the hon. member for Colchester has said, particularly when we find that the hon. member for Ottawa when he attempts an answer, confines himself to saying that the hon. member for Colchester is talking nonsense, that he does not know what he is talking about, and that the cost of living is five times greater than here, but does not attempt to say wbait the cost of anything really is.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to put against what the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Belcourt) has said, quotations from this paper of the prices of staple articles on the 13th February. Beef cost 30 cents a pound. The hon. gentleman says that living there costs five times as much as it does here. Can he buy beef here at one-fifth of that price, or (i cents a pound ? Veal is 40 cents a pound. Can he buy veal here for 8 cents a pound ? Pork costs 45 cents a pound. Then take some of the other lines. Sugar per 100 pounds costs $12.50. One-fifth of that would be 2i cents a pound. Can the hon. gentleman buy sugar for that here ? Beans in Dawson cost $8 per 100 pounds. It is not very likely the hon. gentleman can buy them for one-fifth of that here. Rolled oats cost $10 per 100 pounds. One-fifth of that would be 2 cents per pound, and you cannot buy rolled oats for that here. Rabbits cost 50 cents each. Can the hon. gentleman buy them at 10 cents a piece here ? Poultry costs 40 cents per pound. Does the hon. gentleman think he can buy poultry for 8 cents per pound here ? Going over the whole list, the prices do not bear out the statements of the hon. member.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: Will the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him a question ? Is not tlie rate of wages a pretty fair standard by which to judge the cost of living '!


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am talking about the prices of articles that go to make up the cost of living.


Napoléon Antoine Belcourt: Does the hon. gentleman know that the ordinary rate of wages there is $10 a day ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, I see by this newspaper that the ordinary rate of wages there is $5 per day. The government may give what they like, but according to the newspaper, that is what the ordinary employer pays. But that is not the way to judge the cost of living; the best way is to take the prices of articles of food on which the party lives. The prices of articles of food in Dawson must be the closest criterion by which to judge the living there, and those prices do not bear out the contention of the hon. member for Ottawa.


Mr. HENDERSON.: As to the hon. member for Ottawa's (Mr. Belcourt's) proposition that the rate of wages is a fair criterion of the cost of living, a judge of the Superior Court gets a salary of $7,000, yet he would not eat more than the labouring man receiving $1.25 a day. The rate of wages affords no basis of comparison.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I do not object to the personalities of the hon. member for Ottawa, but I think he would not have taken the position lie did, had he recognized the obvious fact, that the price of an article in the Yukon is the price in Toronto or Montreal

plus the cost of transportation. Had the hon. gentleman based his statements on that proposition, I would have listened to him with the greatest respect. We have heard this kind of talk before, we have been lulled to sleep on many occasions by it. Every year when these extraordinary sums are proposed to us we are told, Oh, the cost of living in the Yukon is very great. X must say that I do not think the hon. gentleman has inquired into the matter of the cost of living at all. He went up there, probably, with some large retainer in his pocket, and he did not care whether the cost of living was $100 a day or 10 cents. I fancy, notwithstanding anything he has said to-night, that the cost of living in the Yukon to-day is not very much more than it is in Victoria or Vancouver; it is probably increased by the cost of transportation only.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Pork is 45 cents a pound.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Why should you not [DOT]supply a judge in Victoria, as well as in the Yukon With his living expenses, and all these extras ? I think that the explanations put firth by the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Belcourt) has weakened the position of the Minister of Public Works.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Then I want those words to be struck out.
Quebec harbour improvements, $100,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I suppose the House will expect some explanation of tills item. A good deal of money has been spent on the Quebec harbour in the past, much of it, I am sorry to say, has not been spent to the public advantage. I have no desire to go back to ancient history. Let by-gohes be by-gones, and let us look to the future. We shall have in a short time, I hope, a fast line of steamers. I am confident this country will not stand much more delay in the solution of that important question.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would remind the minister that we have heard that hope expressed for the last five years.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Good tilings do not lose anything by being repeated. It is better to go slow and safe. If we had attempted a fast line two or three years ago it would have cost a much larger amount of money than it will cost now. In point of fact, up to within a couple of years, it would have been impossible, except at an extravagant price, to secure the building of large ships fitted for that purpose. However, Quebec lias practically no harbour equipment. There is only one berth for large ships in the whole harbour of Quebec. A ship loading or unloading there has either to anchor in the middle of the river, or to be loaded and unloaded with lighters. Now, we think the time has come 143 i
when the port of Quebec will have to be equipped. I have here a plan of the improvement, which I invite hon. gentlemen to examine with me. It shows the famous Louise Basin, of which we heard so much, years ago. We propose to construct four berths for the largest ships. They will have 40 feet of water at high tide. Of course, we will build the cribs deeper than the existing walls of. the old cribs, so as to give them greater solidity. These works that I intend to carry out gradually will cost about $1,000,000. I do not wish to conceal from the committee the fact that we cannot equip a harbour like Quebec without spending a good deal of money. This plan has been recommended to me by my officers, but there is another plan proposed, that is, to use the existing walls in another part of the harbour. I point out to the hon. gentlemen where all the railways are centering. I wish hon. members would take more interest in the transportation question, and compare what we are spending with the vast sums spent by our American friends for. the same purpose. I may mention that these plans I now propose have been approved by the Harbour Commissioners of Quebec, and their able engineer. I hope that before many years are gone we will have completed the equipment of our [DOT] harbour so as to allow the largest ships to enter. It is a great pity that the plans have been prepared in the past by foreign engineers. They know nothing about our country.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is one thing at least about the hon. minister's explanation which I admire. It reminds me of the story of an ancient maiden lady who gave her age for eleven years in succession as eighteen. When reminded by the assessor that she had given the same age eleven times she replied :	I am not the kind of person
who will tell one story to-day and another to-morrow. The hon. minister thinks that he cannot repeat a good thing tco often. He has told us for the last five or six years that we will soon have the fast Atlantic service and lie will not tell one story to-day and another to-morrow. All I can say is that I hope we are nearer to the fruition of that project than we were five years ago.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The amalgamation of the American lines makes it imperative that we shall not lose any more time and let the opposition do their duty and push us on more vigorously than they have done in the past.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do think that the ocean port must ultimately be at Quebec. I believe this is as clear as anything can lie and with the prospect of a' fast Atlantic service we cannot start to work too soon to complete the harbour there. Wlietlier the plan outlined by the hon. minister is the best one that can lie devised or not,
I am not prepared to say. hut it does seem

to me that we caunot commence a moment too soon, because, at the rate of progress we have been making for some pears past, it will be a good many years before we are prepared to accommodate a fast Atlantic service in this country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In two years these works will be completed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister is asking for $100,000. Is that for new work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I assume that the data furnished is by some competent engineer who has taken the trouble to examine the whole question and to give more than an ordinary estimate.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: Every possible care has been taken on this occasion. My best engineers have been at work on this plan. Soundings have been made and every possible precaution taken.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How will the shipping interests be accommodated by the elevators already built there; because, if I remember they are on the other side of the dock ? They will not be near the new harbour as it is proposed to be made.
The- MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS. It will be an easy thing to have conveyers from one side of the basin to the other. In the city, of Montreal we intend to accommodate the three wharfs that are built with one elevator. We have devised a plan by which we will have 800 or 1,000 feet of conveyers, I do not know whether there will be a great grain trade at Quebec. I think we will have some trade there but I do not share all the expectations of those who believe that grain will be shipped in large quantities from Quebec. 1 expect a great deal more from the fast line for perishable fruit and so on. I do not see any reason why barges loaded with grain should not pass down from Montreal where these carriers of freight will be able to go. In discussing that very question with Mr. Hays, the general manager of the Grand Trunk Railway, and one of the ablest railway managers in the world, he expressed the same view that I hold myself. We had never discussed the question as fully before as we did on that occasion There will be trade for all of the St. Lawrence boats. I expect a great deal from the maritime province boats when we are fully equipped. When we have enough carriers on the lakes and when we have enough elevating capacity to accumulate the grain, that grain will have to reach the seaboard in some way. AVhen the Canadian Pacific Railway will have completed the improvement of the short road to St. [DOT]John, I have no doubt a large quantity of grain will be taken to that port in the winter months. In fact during the last winter the


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Canadian Pacific Railway took two or three million bushels of wheat over their line to St. John direct from the west.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where are they taking it to ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: To the port of St. John. They are not making much money out of it but let us not forget that grain is only an incident. A railway which is well equipped has good connections enabling it to carry all sorts of merchandise and other goods. If the Canadian Pacific Railway are able to carry grain, perhaps with not much profit, they make it up, I suppose, in carrying perishable goods. They have important connections in the American west and they carry large quantities of canned meats and other-perishable goods. That makes the trade of the railway and I hope in future will help-to build up our Canadian ports. I anticipate that in connection with this fast Atlantic line we will have a line of freight carriers. The two things will go together. There is no doubt that if the company which operate the fast line of steamers were not in a position to have freight liners they would be taken by the throat and other companies would refuse to help them in handling the traffic. So that this country must look to the establishment of a fast line and at the same time to the establishment of a line of carriers. The sooner we in Canada realize that we must stand on our own bottom the better.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have noticed in the press of late an intimation that there are some important negotiations going on in England by Lord Strathcona in regard to this fast Atlantic service, and the plan which the hon. ministei; has outlined would indicate that he- imagines there is some possibility of the project being realized at an early date. Has he any information to give the House in regard to what is being done in view of the fact that there appears to be a combine of the carrying trade of the Atlantic at the present time, and can he tell us what steps the government are taking to prevent the possibility of any line that is established being absorbed by the combine ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not see that the government can do much to prevent the shareholders in any existing company selling their shares if they see fit. That is the great trouble. We have nothing to say, we can do nothing.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If you subsidize a line of steamers, can you not attach conditions to that subsidy ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am speaking of the past and as to the future the Prime Minister could speak if he were here. I have no doubt we will take good care that our subsidies are not lost.

I have the greatest holies that at the imperial conference this question will be discussed and solved in the interest of the empire and the colonies. I expect the greatest results from that conference.
Mr. SPROU1.E. What will be the length and depth of that wall ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1.200 feet on one side and 410 feet on the other.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What will it be built of ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Concrete and cement, and crib-work under structure. I believe we have made a great mistake in using crib-work in the past. Its average life out of water is between seven and eight years and the outside life ten years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the life of it below water ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Eternity, unless there is some accident or unless worms eat the timber, and in future we will creosote all timber where there are worms. I am taking a vote for a creosoting plant.
accommodate thirty vessels at a time and he would have a port which would last for ever, and which would not cost him so much as this patch work which he now proposes and which is always very expensive. The present basin at Quebec cost $5,000,000 or $6,000,000, and it is practically of no use whatever. Vessels can only go in and out when the tide is high, so that they have to wait seven hours a day. which is a great delay in view of the expedition which our trade requires at the present day. If you build a wall down from the St. Charles river you can accommodate all the vessels you like and you can build all the railway tracks that are necessary. Clear down to the Montrribreney falls, at the mouth of the Beauport river, there is a splendid bottom, and the water is quite deep, and you could build the wall along-there, and you would not have to dredge much. You could establish a port there that you and your children and the whole country could be proud of. You would not be wasting money patching here and there, but you would be spending money to good advantage. The wall we have built has moved about three feet and sunk in the basin. It is a dangerous place.


Mr. MORIN.: The Minister of Public Works admits himself that there was a great mistake made in placing this basin at Quebec. I am surprised, however, thaMhe minister has not learned something from the mistakes made in the past. I believe that if he carries out the project he has now in view he will commit a bigger sin than lias been committed by his predecessors in office. The hon. gentleman has the bad example of others right before his eyes, but yet ho has learned nothing from experience and he proposes to follow out that bad example. He is going to build a little crib-work there and he will have two or three small boats in the harbour and to do that he will have to dredge in the river and blast the rocks, and he may spend $1,000,000 or $2,000,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no rock there at all.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I know there are no floating rocks but there are rocks down below. If the minister intends to make a decent port at Quebec, why does he not go right below the St. Charles river and build a straight wall to the asylum at Beauport ? If the minister does.that he will have one of the best ports in Canada and there will be all the facilities for shipping that can be required. If the minister of Public Works commences at the St, Charles river, he can build his wall or wharf and go clear down to the insane asylum if he wishes.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: There is an insane asylum about two miles below, and I am perfectly right in saying that he can extend down to the asylum. There is no joke about that matter at all. If the minister would adopt the suggestion that I am making, he could
Mr. BOYD". Refore that item passes. I think it is well that the minister should give us some explanation in regard to it. I supposed, when the hon. gentleman was making his explanations. that at last we had got part of some well defined scheme of transportation to meet the present emergency, especially in the western portion of the country: but after listening to the practical remarks of the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Morin), we find that, instead of any well-defined scheme, we have what he describes as a tumble-down portion of what is impracticable. I am tired of this little patching of wharfs and the indiscriminate expenditure of money all over this country in the manner in which it has been done by this government for some time past: and it is time that the government realized a sense of the duty they owe to the country, and arranged some well-defined and well-matured plan to meet the emergency of that western country that is staring us in the face.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have great confidence in the judgment of my hon. friend from Dorchester. He is a practical man, whose experience seems to have convinced my hon. friend from the west that we do not know much about carrying out these works. But let me say to my hon. friend that the carrying out of his plan might come later on, when trade developes more, and when the building of these long piers might become a necessity. But they would cost a vast amount of money.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Not much.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Let my hon. friend have some confidence in those who have given great attention to

euch matters. It is not tlie first time I have heard of that project. I was in Quebec for 18 years, and I know about that wharf. Beyond a doubt it would cost a large amount of money; and I think in the meantime the country will be contented [DOT]with the moderate expenditure we are making to provide accommodation for four or five steamers. At the same time, my hon. friend from the west should not speak in that wild way, if I may be allowed to say so, accusing us of giving no attention to the west.


Nathaniel Boyd: I did not say that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am glad to hear that he did not. I think we are providing to-day a pretty general plan of transportation. Let my hon. friend look at what is taking place. The two great railway companies, the Canadian Northern and the Canadian Pacific Railway, are adding five or six million bushels capacity to their elevators. There are elevators being built or in sight in nearly every harbour on the Georgian Bay: in Montreal the Harbour Commissioners are building a large elevator; the Grand Trunk Railway is applying for space to build an elevator of 1,000.000 bushels capacity. There are elevators springing up everywhere. We have today passed a Bill which would not have been passed if the House were not kind to the west. It was a pretty hard Bill to swallow.


Thomas Walter Scott: Will it do any harm to the east ?


The HINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, I think it will do good to the east. But every member of parliament will admit that it is an exceptional Bill. I am strongly in favour of it.


Nathaniel Boyd: What Bill is it ?


The HINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Grain Bill. It is a very important Bill. We are doing what we can, and we think that by completing our St. Lawrence route, and deepening and equipping our canals, we are going to secure for the west cheap transportation. When we have on the Atlantic ocean the large carriers that I expect to see, and the fast line established, which may be before many years, our equipment will be complete. We are doing now the work that any progressive government would do. We are equipping all our harbours on the St. Lawrence; we are helping the equipment of our harbours on the Georgian Bay; we are deepening the Kaministiquia river; we are deepening Port Arthur; the Canadian Pacific Railway is going to add greatly to its rolling stock and its tracks; the Canadian Northern is also adding to its equipment. We think we are going as fast as we can be expected to go. I know that my views are not shared by everybody ; but I am confident that within two years our Canadian, system of railways and water-Hon. Mr. TARTE.
ways will be in such a position that we shall be able to give cheaper rates to the west than the Americans can. We have the shortest route; we have only to make it the best in order to give cheap rates to our friends in the North-west; and this will help us to establish a Canadian marine, which will employ a large number of men and help to build up our cities, as Buffalo and other American ports have been built up.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I would like to give my advice to the minister, who can. of course, take it or not as he pleases. The minister said he would patch up that basin at Quebec, and then probably go on and build a wall or wharf towards the insane asylum; but he said that at present he did not wish to spend too much money. Well, I will tell him just about what will happen in a year or two if he does not go on with this wharf now. If he occupies the position he does, he will feel afraid to commence it. If somebody else occupies his place he will want to wait a year or two before going on. But the way to do is to make a beginning, and keep on year after year until the work is finished. If you keep patching here and there, all the time afraid to commence the work, you will never build it. The minister also said it would be expensive. That is cofrect; but what will the wharf be worth when it is built ? You will not be sinking money uselessly, but you will be building a wharf and getting value for your expenditure.


Nathaniel Boyd: I think the hon. Minister of Public Works cannot say that he has received any strenuous or factious opposition from me towards any of the schemes he has propounded in this House. As regards the opinion he may have of myself or other members from the west, or of our breezy manner of putting things, that is immaterial.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have a very good opinion.


Nathaniel Boyd: Well, the opinion of the minister is reciprocated by myself. The other evening the hon. minister was haying a discussion in regard to matters of this kind with the hon. member for Saskatchewan. And he waxed rather warm in regard to what this government had done and was doing for the people of the west. Now, I do not know what the Liberal members of the House think of what lias been done by this government for the west in the way of any large expenditure, but I fail to see where any great efforts have been put forth which has caused this country any expense. The Canadian Pacific Railway and all connected with it are no part of the administration of this government. The Canadian Northern got a slight bonus from this government on its Ontario division some two years ago. Apart from that, I do not know of anything that the hon. gentleman can accuse us of having received.

During all that time we from the west have been sitting here voting millions of dollars upon the waterways of this country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: For our common benefit.


Nathaniel Boyd: Perhaps, but the discussions in this House on many of these public works would not bear out that assumption. We may be accused of being somewhat aggressive and enthusiastic about our country, but it is estimated that at present only one-seventietli of that great country is being cultivated. When we recognize that fact and recognize also that people are pouring in there at present by the thousand, it behooves this government to be on the alert for the future. I was under the impression that at last we were going to receive some of the benefits of the many suggestions thrown out from this side of the House, and that some well considered plan of transportation, to prepare for the great emergency that is awaiting the people of eastern Canada, would have been submitted for our approval. Hon. members speak of the great crop in the west last year, but I have known of three or four better crops in Manitoba. Our average in that province last year was about 22 bushels to the acre. I myself have grown 28, find we have had a better average on two or three previous occasions. There was a better average in the North-west Territories, but we need not look to last year's crop as something exceptional. We are liable to have a greater crop at any time, and with increased cultivation and our enormous acreage, it behooves the government to prepare for a much larger export from that country than we have hitherto had.
Port Colborne-Harbour improvements, $100,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What progress is being made at Port Colborne ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are about 1,200 feet of breakwater built out of 5,000 feet, but I may say that this amount is not adequate for the completion of the work we have been' authorized to carry out. If hon. gentlemen will follow me, I will explain on this map what is being done. When the plans for the breakwater were prepared, my engineers were of the opinion that it was necessary to have a breakwater 40 feet wide. I was away on the other side of the ocean when the plans were finally adopted. My hon. friend and colleague, the Postmaster General was acting for me. After mature consideration, he made up his mind that 25 feet wide was sufficient. Well, the waves of Lake Erie are just as heavy as those on the Atlantic ocean, and during a gale in the month of February the breakwater moved a couple of inches. I am now asking for $100,000 to add 25 feet width to the breakwater, so as to make the width 50 feet. About 10 or 15
days ago, in another gale, the breakwater was moved about 2 feet, and it is imperative to complete that work. Of course, it will not cost more now than it would have had the original plans prepared by my engineers been adopted. When this breakwater is completed 5,000 feet long, it will give all this area which is marked on the map to tiie large ships that will come to load and unload in the canal. The Minister of Railways and Canals is dredging the entrance of the canal. We shall not be as well equipped as Buffalo, for they have 5 miles of breakwater, and 50 elevators. We have already received application for sites for elevators from private corporations. I do not know what our policy will be, but, in the meantime we are preparing the ground. This year, Mr. Woolvin, who is undertaking to carry grain to Quebec, will use a part of the breakwater. He will have a floating elevator to tranship his grain from large carriers on the lake to small craft that will go to Quebec.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the addition to be built of ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Timber, with a concrete top.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Above the water ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, about seven feet above the water.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long does the minister expect it will take to complete the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I must give the contract without an hour's delay, because our breakwater is exposed and I am afraid of another storm. One thing that has helped to save it is that Messrs. I-Iogan & Macdonald, the contractors, have wintered a large quantity of stone inside the breakwater.


William Manley German: The breakwater ought to lie completed next year. It was reasonably light, but the minister says he will strengthen it by putting a concrete wall inside that will make it pretty strong. The whole breakwater should be completed next year ; it must be completed by that time.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It will be, there is no doubt about that.


William Manley German: There are some other matters in connection with the inside harbour that must be discussed later. But, so far as the breakwater is concerned this will be all right.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That means it will be completed in two years ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, completed for next season. The contractors have large quantities of ipaterial on hand and a good organization. I was there about the time of the opening of parliament, three months ago and saw xvhat they were doing.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the contract let ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, I speak of the first contract.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that part built of crib-work with a concrete top ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Unfortunately no. I believe that in that we
made a mistake, and that it should 'have been built in concrete. Of course, it costs a little more money. But. in future, I will ask parliament. in all these large public works, to allow me to use the best materials, because they are the cheapest in the end. As I have said, the outside life of the wooden structure above water is ten years and the ordinary life is between seven and eight years. In Buffalo they made the same mistake that we have made. But now, they are building with large blocks of stone.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister, no doubt, is proceeding upon information which he regards as justifying his course. But it does not appear to me that the best plan is to build with cement on top of crib-work. There must be the same liability of the wood decaying.


William Manley German: Wood never will decay under water.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many hundred years has the hon. gentleman lived to be able to determine that 1


William Manley German: I do not need to live five years to determine that. If the cribs are absolutely under water they are safe from decay for nil time to come. That is the testimony of all engineers, and you can only proceed in these matters on what you are told by the best engineers in tilie country. They will tell you that cribs sunk under water with a concrete fop make the best breakwater or dam that you can put in - the cheapest and the best.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That may lie very valuable. but the hon. member (Sir. German) will hardly expect us to take it upon his experience.


William Manley German: Let the hon. gentleman (Sir. Sproule) ask any engineer.


The SIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a fact-if my hon. friend (Sir. Sproule) will allow me to interrupt him. Wood under water, instead of decaying becomes harder and harder.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: All kinds of wood ?


The SIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All kinds of wood-that is the teaching of experience.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The contract is to be let at once, and the hon. gentleman expects to have the work done at the end of the present season ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the entrance to the canal be deepened and widened so that liavi-Hon. Mr. TARTE.
gabion can be carried on successfully there ? And what provision will lie made at the end of that time for the traffic ? Is the hon. gentleman building elevators for the grain '!


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will any provision be made this season ?


The SIINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is a question of policy which I would not like to discuss to-night, as we are not providing for it in the estimates. Sly own personal opinion is the same as that I expressed three years ago-that the government should provide elevators in harbours that we build ourselves. Take Port Col-borne, for instance; or let us take Slontreal. In Montreal we are to have a public elevator, because the harbour commissioners are trustees for the government and for the commercial community. Sly own opinion is that an elevator should be a public work as much as a pier or a breakwater. I know my views are not shared by everybody. So far, we have not built elevators ourselves except at St. John and Halifax in connection with the Intercolonial Railway. Private enterprise has supplied elevators on the lakes, for instance, at Collingwood, Sleaford, Owen Sound, Midland. But in respect of canals, they are our national property, and tlie question is whether we ought to build elevators on the canals. Time will tell. If private enterprise can do it, well and good. Speaking lor myself alone- because I lmvo no authority from my colleagues to say this-I believe it would be better for the government to own the terminal facilities where they own the works; in other words, at Port Colborne I think it would be better for us to own the elevators so as to be able to control the rates. Sly own opinion is that when we are fully equipped in Montreal, Quebec and St. John-I speak of the main points-our system of canals will be more largely used than it is at present. New ships are being built, there are two new ships under construction on the lakes to-day. Our canals will be used on a larger scale than they are now, and then if we have the control of our own routes we can control the rates. If we want to secure lower rates so as to compete successfully with our American friends we will be in a better position to do that. At the next session of parliament, if private enterprise has not solved the question, we shall have to do it ourselves. Although we have only part of the breakwater built, there are large ships going there now. M e will see during the recess what will turn up.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman is like Mieawber, waiting for something to turn up. It seems that the government have not thought out any plan for solving tliis great question of transportation. It is * just as important for successful transporta-

tion to have elevators as to have harbours. There is no analogy between Port Colborne and Collingwood, Meaford, Goderich and Owen Sound, because in these places tlie railway companies have an interest in private elevators, and the towns have each of them given substantial bonuses for that purpose. Consequently, they are more likely to got elevators there than at Port Colborne. My fear is that after this very large expenditure, we will only have half the benefits resulting from it which we would naturally expect, provided the harbour was equipped with proper facilities for storing and handling grain when this dock, or wharf, or breakwater, is finished.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I share the views of my hon. friend. But when he becomes Minister of Public Works he will find out that influential as he may lie, he will not be able to do everything that he wants to do. A successful public man, must learn that the first virtue is patience and persistence.


William Manley German: Mr. Chairman,


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Let us get through, let the item be carried.


Peter Macdonald: I wish to remind the committee that, if we are going to [DOT]discuss the entire question of transportation upon every item that refers to a harbour. or a bridge, or an elevator, we shall not get through in a month. I hope the committee will confine themselves as near as possible to the question before the,Chair.


William Manley German: I suppose a member of this House has a right to speak on a question that pertains to matters in his own constituency. I am not sure that the Chairman of this committee has a right to suggest that I should not make a remark in answer to the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule).


Peter Macdonald: Do not misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that a member should do anything but speak to the point.


William Manley German: As I have not spoken at all. it is very questionable whether you knew whether I was going to speak to the point or not.


Peter Macdonald: I had taken the point of order before you commenced, because the last half hour has been spent in speaking upon questions outside the question before the Chair. All I ask is that hon. members would be kind enough to confine their remark's as nearly as possible to the question under discussion.


William Manley German: I intend to speak to the question under discussion, and I do not need any suggestions from you as to how I should speak.


Peter Macdonald: The hon. member is out of order. The hon. member has
a right to address the Chair, but he has no' right to lecture the Chair.


William Manley German: I was just suggesting, Mr. Chairman, that I intend to speak to the question under discussion if I am allowed to do so. If you suggest that I have no right to speak to this question, I will cer-taiidy sit down.


Peter Macdonald: I have not so decided.


William Manley German: Well, the hon. member for East Grey made a suggestion that the government was building a breakwater at Port Colborne and expending a large amount of money there without any idea of bringing about a culmination of that expenditure in the interest of the country. Now, the situation is this :	A breakwater is being
built there to construct a harbour. The difficulty so far as transportation is concerned between the west and the east of Canada is that there has been no harbour at Port Colborne in which vessels could go to tranship their cargoes for our canal system. The government of Canada has spent about $100,000,000 on the Welland and St. Lawrence canals. It has been absolutely useless and it will remain useless for all time to come unless you have a satisfactory harbour at Port Colborne into which vessels can go and tranship their cargoes. So soon as you have a sufficient harbour at Port Colborne and elevators built there is not a question about it that not only' the bulk of the grain but all the grain products of the North-west Territories will come to Port Colborne to be transhipped into canal sized , boats and go to Montreal or Quebec. This is the cheapest transportation route to Europe on this continent by two or three cents-by two cents at least. Grain can be carried from Port Arthur to Montreal by the Welland canal and St. Lawrence route as cheaply as it is being carried from Buffalo to New York. The ship-owners of Canada and the United States appreciate that fact. They so thoroughly appreciate it that Mr. Wolvin, of Duluth, one of the largest shipowners in America, is putting ou a line of boats to carry grain from Buffalo to Quebec through the Welland canal. If this government will complete these harbour facilities at Port Colborne and will build elevators, and my own opinion is that the proper policy for the government to pursue would be to build elevators at Port Colborne and control the rates, the trade will certainly' pass through the Welland and St. Lawrence canals. There are certain companies, or individuals, at the present time who are looking to get the concession of building the elevators at Port Colborne and of putting on a line of boats between Tort Colborne and Montreal. My suggestion is that the government should build the elevators at Montreal and Port Colborne, control the rates and put the canals in a safe and proper condition and that if

tliey do so the products of the North-west, so far as the capabilities of that line of transportation are concerned, will go in that way. When these facilities for transportation are exhausted let us build other lines of transportation. We need, in this country, more than one transcontinental line. We cannot in Canada, in the future, carry all the products of the great North-west to the ocean by means of the Welland and St. Lawrence canals. The North-west of Canada is destined to be the greatest wheatgrowing country on earth. It will produce more grain and better grain possibly than any other country in the world. . It is not one-quarter, not one-tenth explored. The Peace river district will, within the next twenty years, produce more wheat than any person at present conceives to be possible and it is our duty to look to the future. The engineers of our canal system in the past have been looking too much to the immediate present. They built the Welland canal fifteen years ago for the navigation of fifteen years ago without looking to the future. They looked at the St. Lawrence canals on the same principle without looking to the future. Let us look to the future and have confidence in the development of the country that we own Irrespective of our political feelings and it will be better for us and better for the country. We want at Port Colborne the proper harbour facilities which the country demands. We want proper navigation through the Welland canal which. I believe, the people of the country will approve of and we should, so < far as we can, in a legitimate, economical ' way, develop the resources which we have in our country.
River Kaministiquia-dredging, $25,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that work to be done at the mouth of the river or up the river ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: From the mouth of the river up to the Canadian Pacific Railway elevafors.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to ask the hon. minister if the government are going to do this work with their own dredge or are they going to do it by contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have made arrangements for a certain time for fifteen cents a yard.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that a contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a contract for fifteen cents a yard.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is not the best way of making a contract I .made the inquiry because I was not aware whether the gov-erenment had any dredges on Lake Superior that are available for doing this work. I wish to say that I had a letter from a gentleman in Duluth some time ago saying that he had one or two very fine dredges and he understood that the hon.


William Manley German: minister required dredges very badly and that he would be glad if he could make an arrangement with him to do some dredging anywhere on the upper lakes.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We were obliged to employ an American dredge at that very spot last year. We were paying fifteen and one-half cents a yard then, but this year we are giving 15 cents a yard. There were large shipments of grain being made, there was not enough water for the vessels to get up to the elevators, and I made the arrangements which I have mentioned a week or so ago.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I will let my hon. friend have the letter so that if he should desire to communicate with the gentleman that I have referred to he can do so.
St. Hyaei.ithe public building, $12,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The building there has become too small, and it is necessary to make that addition.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are these works to be done by tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are you branching out with another post office in Montreal the same as in Toronto ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We lia-ve either to enlarge the main building or to branch out. The Postmaster General has made up his mind that he can give a better service with these branches.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And you will not have to buy automobiles ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We will get along without them in Montreal.
Valleyfield public building, $10,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Valleyfield is a thriving city with a population of 12,000, and in a couple of years it will have over 15,000. It is one of the most thriving little towns in the province of Quebec. It has no public building now at all. Last year parliament was good enough to allow me to have a sum in the estimates which I did not employ, but next year I intend to go on with the work. I have another vote for $10,000 for this in the main estimates.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you put $10,000 in the main estimates and $10,000 in the supplementary estimates ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It might have been better if I had put the two together, but I did not do it.


Robert Laird Borden: I know the hon. gentleman did not do it, but what I want to know is why he did not do it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If it had been in the estimates a month ago it would not have helped me at all.


Robert Laird Borden: That is very convincing, but I would like to know whether the hon. gentleman did much canvassing on this building in the late election in Beauharnois ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 used just the ordinary convincing argument that public meii use on such occasions. The $10,000 were in the estimates and the people knew I would build it. I did not make any promises. Now that the election is over I want to go on with the work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose the hon. gentleman drew then- attention to the fact that they needed it very badly, and of course by implication gave them to understand that if they elected his candidate he would go on and build it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Joking apart, this building is very much needed.
Toronto post office-building for branch office in west end of city, $20,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Was there not an item already in the estimates for this building ?	*


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have $15,000 in the main estimates ; but since then we have bought a site. We will spend about $35,000. The work is under way now.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will that complete the building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Ottawa post office and custom house,. $20,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: When these alterations are completed, we will save a rental of $1,000 a year, which we are now paying for the Customs Department on Sparks street.
Ottawa public buildings-Repairs to masonry wall, $6,500.
Mr. BORDEN Halifax). What building is that ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is to repair the wall of the eastern block, which is falling, just as a wall in the western block threatened to do three years ago. I was very much surprised to see how light the walls of these buildings are.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How is this work done- by contract or by day labour ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These repairs cannot be done by contract. They are carried on under the chief architect.
Rideau Hall, Ottawa-Drain from Government House to city sewer, $7,500.


Robert Laird Borden: Was there never a drain there before ?


The MINISTER OF PI .: it,1C WORKS. No, the old drain is choked. We are going to change the whole system and have the drainage of Rideau Hall and grounds carried to the main sewer which has been built by the Ottawa Improvement Commission.
Toronto post office-alterations and additions,


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The post office in Toronto Is in a dilapidated condition.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the minister decided that certain repairs were necessary, why did he not have votes for them all put in the main estimates ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The policy of the Public Works Department in the past has been to have all new works and repairs which are not begun placed in the supplementary estimates. Whether that is a good policy or not I do not know. I would rather have my main estimates include everything.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: One reason for this is that the main estimates are prepared in December or January, and three or four months later we are in a better position to determine how much money we can allow for these expenditures.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in believing that there are new works in the main estimates ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not one.
Toronto Junction public building-additional amount, $5,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Will that complete it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot say. The contract is not yet awarded. The previous amount voted was $5,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the site likely to cost?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not expect to pay more than $3,000 or $4,000 for the site.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose this is to carry out the understanding between the hon. gentleman and the electors at the time he was helping Mr. Campbell ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend attributes to me motives which never came to my mind. That amount was in the estimates when Mr. Clarke Wallace was in his seat.
Hamilton'-Examining warehouse extension,


Robert Laird Borden: Why this expenditure ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The public building has become too small, and the business cannot be carried on longer in it. I am obliged to give an extension.
St. Catharines drill hall, $10,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: What is the cost going to be ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not expect to be obliged to spend more than $40,000. The site has been given to us, and all parties are agreed that the site chosen lately is satisfactory. I cannot say positively wjiat the cost will be as there may be heating or something like that to be done, but we will try to do the right thiug.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: I suppose it will be between $40,000 and $50,000 ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
Some resolutions reported.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: In moving the adjournment I wish to say that there has been some conversation among members as to the desirability of our giving some-time to-morrow to private Bills. I think that that can be arranged. I had a conversation with the hon. leader of the opposition, who is equally desirous that some time should be given, but I prefer not making any definite arrangement until the right hon. the Prime Minister is in his seat. We can arrange to give some time to private Bills either to-morrow or Monday.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a very large number of Bills on the Order papersomething like twenty'. It would seem undesirable that the expense incurred should be lost to the parties simply for lack of time this session to pass the Bills. When the government took Monday, some time ago, I mentioned that I thought a longer time would be necessary for private Bills, but they did not share that opinion. They were not sufficiently impressed with the number that would probably come before the House. A portion of to-morrow or Monday should be taken, and I would support a proposition to that effect. I should suppose, in view of the necessary work to be done on a number of Bills, in the committee, that it would be desirable to assign a portion of to-morrow rather than Monday, but that is a matter of arrangement. Apart from the private Bills, what government business are we likely to have to-morrow ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We shall proceed in Supply with the estimates of the Minister of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 12.35 a.m. Saturday.
Robert Laird Borden: Saturday, May 10, 1902.