1902-03-11

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 35) to incorporate the Nipissing and Ottawa Railway Company-Mr. Campbell.
Bill (No. 36) to incorporate the British Columbia and Yukon Railway Company.- Mr. Riley.
Bill (No. 37) to incorporate the Sprague's Falls Manufacturing Company, Limited.- Mr. Emmerson.
Bill (No. 38) respecting the Montreal Bridge Company.-Mr. Belcourt.
Bill (No. 39) to incorporate the St. Lawrence and Northern Railway Company.- Mr. Bureau.

The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved :: That Government Orders take precedence on Monday next immediately after Questions.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: I had contemplated delivering the Budget speech this week, but after consultation with the leader of the opposition it has been found more mutually convenient to fix it for Monday next, on the understanding that the debate will continue from day to day until terminated. It is only intended to take next Monday as a government day unless the Budget debate should not finish next week, in which case the following Monday will be taken.



SCHOOL TEACHERS FOR SOUTH AFRICA.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES (North Victoria).: If the right hon. the Prime Minister will be good enough, I would like him to give some information regarding the sending of teachers to South Africa. A great many are anxious to go and would like to be informed as to the procedure, the form of application and the qualifications.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I am sorry to say that I am not in a position to answer my hon. friend on this subject and will have to refresh my memory.



PENSIONS TO NORTH-WEST MOUNTED POLICE.

[Stage Direction]
Resolution (p. 806) respecting pensions to be granted to the officers of the North-west Mounted Police was read the second time and agreed to.
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 40) respecting pensions to officers of the North-west Mounted Police.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
[u"I have in my hand a copy of a memorial, the original of which I understand has been sent to the Department of Public Works ; and copies, I believe, have also been sent to the other Prince Edward Island members. This memorial reads as follows :\nTo His Excellency the Governor General in Council :\nThe memorial of the undersigned committee, appointed at a meeting held at Cape Traverse, Prince Edward Island, on January 6th, 1902,\nRespectfully showeth, that the meeting above mentioned was largely attended by influential and representative men of Prince and Queen's counties, and after full discussion unanimously adopted the following resolutions :\nMoved by Dr. Dougherty, seconded by Major Clark, and resolved, that this meeting do hereby memorialize the Federal government to put a sufficient sum in the estimates of this coming session of parliament for the construction of a pier at some suitable place on the Cape Traverse side of the Straits of Northumberland so that terminal facilities may be had here for the navigation across the straits winter and summer.\nMoved by Mr. H. Crockett, seconded by Capt. Thomas Howatt and resolved that parliament be petitioned at once to make provision for the construction of such extra pier work as will thoroughly equip and protect the Tormentine pier for all the purposes of winter and summer navigation.\nV our memorialists were instructed by the meeting at which they were appointed to bring to your notice that Prince Edward Island has long suffered greatly from the want of daily steam communication with the mainland to which the island is entitled by the terms of union with Canada :\nThat the winter routes of communication between the island and mainland, from Georgetown to Pictou where the ss. * Minto ' is now plying, and from Summerside to Cape Tormentine where the ' Stanley ' is now at work, have been frequently interrupted, sometimes for a week or more at a time, causing great inconvenience because of the detention of passengers, mails and freight ;\nThat hence it is especially desirable that another route for one of the winter steamers he tried, and your memorialists, and those for whom they speak, believe that the route from Cape Traverse, Prince Edward Island, to Cape\n\xab\n1019\tCOMMONS\t1020\nTormentine, N. B., being but eight miles in length, and because at or near this place the floating ice separates at the turn of the tides, affords not only the shortest hut the most convenient and practicable route for winter navigation between the island and the mainland ;\nThat because of the want of terminal facilities on the island side this route has never been tried by the government steamers in winter, and has been also left unused in summer, notwithstanding the large outlay made by the Dominion in constructing and improving the pier at Cape Tormentine, and in constructing the Cape Traverse Branch Railway, which important public works in no way fulfil the objects for which they were constructed ;\nThat, therefore, your memorialists urge upon your Excellency and your honourable council that a sufficient sum be granted to provide the required pier and terminal accommodation on the Cape Traverse side of the straits and for such further improvements at Cape Tormentine as will enable navigation to be opened and continued by this route winter and summer, and as a highway for intsrprovlncial communication.\nAnd as in duty bound your memorialists will ever pray."]
Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).: Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I wish, for a few moments to direct attention to the ' Hansard ' reporting of the House for the present year. In the past I have always recognized that we have had very accurate work on the part of the ' Hansard ' staff; but I regret to say that it is not up to its usual efficiency this session. My attention was drawn, a few days ago to a report in ' Hansard ' of February 27th. In Committee of Supply the item for ' rewards for saving lives, including life-savings stations ' was under consideration, and



I asked a question with regard to it as to what this money was to be used for. I drew attention to it.
I notice an item for life saving in connection with one of the vessels on the upper lakes.
That is what appears in ' Hansard.' But I did not speak of it in that way, but said that, in connection with this item for lifesaving service, I desired to draw the attention of the minister to what had happened in the way of life-saving in connection with one of the vessels on the upper lakes, and I asked if anything had been done to reward the captain of the vessel for his meritorious conduct. I asked the list of those to whom awards had been given for saving life, so as to find if this captain's name appeared among them. The minister read the list, and when he had finished, I drew attention to the fact that the name of the captain in the case I have referred to did not appear. I was not, at that time, able to give the name of the steamship, but said it was captain Geo. McDougall, of the steamship ' Athabaska,' wlio, on the 29th of June, 1901, saved the lives of twelve out of thirteen of the crew of the American barge ' Preston.' I stated that I mentioned the case so as to draw the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to it; that, in the event of deserving men being rewarded, the highly meritorious services of Captain McDougall might receive due recognition. I also stated, at that time, that there had been given to this captain a very handsome testimonial, in the form of a gold watch, by the President of the United States. Now, there is not a word referring to all that in ' Hansard.' I pass on then to the report of next day. I had, on a previous occasion, asked the minister for information with regard to the hydrographic survey chart of Georgian Bay. The minister, referring to my question stated where these maps could be had. And he referred also to the case of Captain McDougall in these words, according to ' Hansard ' :
With regard to the question put by the hon. member for North Grey-
That is wrong, for it was not the hon. member for North Grey-this is mixed up in every way, it seems to me.
[DOT]-as to whether any awai'd has been1 made to Captain McDougall, who had saved a number of lives from an American barge or steamer, and who had been given a very handsome testimonial for his conduct by the United States, I beg to say that l have looked up the records in the department and cannot find record of any application for an award to Captain McDougall.
That was in answer to what I had said in bringing the case to the notice of the hon. minister, for the purpose of having him take note of it so that Captain Mr. SPROULE.
McDougall might be suitably awarded, but concerning which there is no mention in ' Hansard.' This kind of reporting is unjust to hon. members of this House. And, as this occurred on Friday evening, and I was not in the city on the following day, the necessary correction could not be made ill time, and so it appears in this erroneous form in the revised ' Hansard ' as well. I draw attention to this in order that there may be more care taken in the reporting, for, otherwise, ' Hansard ' will be of little use.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: Let me say, on behalf of the ' Hansard ' reporters, that the difficulty of taking down every word uttered on the floor of the House must be aiiparent. I have had long experience in that kind of business, and I may say that I do not understand how the reporters can be as accurate as they are, for there is so much noise in the chamber that it is almost impossible for one to hear. I have found errors in ' Hansard,' but, on behalf of a staff Which is a meritorious one, I must call the attention of the members of the House to the noise which is going on all the time, which makes it very difficult for any reporters to be accurate.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (East York).: On that same subject, I might point out that a number of members have a habit of turning their backs on the ' Hansard ' men while speaking, which makes it almost impossible for the reporters to catch what they say.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee.
Rents-Dominion public buildings, Ottawa, $31,000.
["On that same subject, I might point out that a number of members have a habit of turning their backs on the ' Hansard ' men while speaking, which makes it almost impossible for the reporters to catch what they say."]
William Findlay Maclean: What is the total amount paid for rents in outside buildings in the city, approximately.? I am told to-day it exceeds $43,000. That would pay interest on $2,000,000 ; and if that is the case, we can get much better value for our money by borrowing that amount of capital cheaply, and putting up proper buildings.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If I mistake not the amount paid for rents in Ottawa is about $15,000.


William Findlay Maclean: I think it is higher than that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not exactly recollect the amount.


Mr. WILSON.: It would be well for the Minister of Public Works to give a list of all the buildings he is renting, and the rent he pays for each.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: With pleasure. Does the hon. gentleman

ask for a list of all the public buildings all over the country ?


Uriah Wilson: In Ottawa alone.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Geological Museum, Sussex Street, $600 ; French translators' office, $420. The French translators have been lately moved into the central block here, so that item will disappear. Workshops, Wellington Street, at $140, and taxes at $300 ; Examining Warehouse, Sparks Street, $850 ; Imperial building, Queen Street, $1,800 ; Central Basin, coal shed, Slater Estate, $400 ; Thistle Estate, Wellington Street, Gas Inspection, $500 ; Seybold building, $6,500. The House pronounced last year upon that. New methylated spirits warehouse and laboratory, corner of Queen and Lyon Streets, Department of Inland Revenue, $1,200 ; Marine storehouse, $300 ; Dominion Methodist Church, Queen Street, Militia and Defence, $500. This item will disappear hereafter, as we have a new store building erected. Customs Department, Wellington Street, $1,500 ;
' Molsons' Bank, Metcalfe Street, for Labour Department, $1,200 ; new building for Surveyor General's staff, corner Metcalfe and Slater Streets, $3,000 ; International Boundary Commission and Astronomical Branch, Interior Department, 26 Wellington Street, $800. That makes an approximate total of $21,000, although two items are to disappear. I do not like that state of affairs. At the same time, it would take a large amount of money to erect all the buildings that would be necessary to give the accommodation for which we now pay rent.


William Findlay Maclean: But the hon. gentleman belongs to an economical government, and they are charged with the administration of tiie public affairs to the best interests of the country.. If it is wrong, as he confesses it is, to pay this large amount in rents and to have the public affairs administered in this extravagant way, he is guilty of maladministration. He is charged by the people to effect the best possible administration, and if it is necessary, to build new buildings and get better value for our money. We are paying him and we are paying the government for that purpose, and we expect them to conduct the public service in the best possible way for the smallest amount of money. I do not like to hear these confessions that are being repeatedly made by the ministers that they are doing something that is not in the public interest. They should bring forward a proposition that is in the public interest, and they should cease the extravagance under which public affairs are now being administered.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I never intimated that we were doing this against the public interest, I said it was a state of affairs that I did not like. On the other hand, the Minister of Finance and the 31J
government must take care not to spend too much money. Now we are going to erect a museum, an observatory and a building for the mint, which will take a large amount of money. When the government have to borrow money as we have, it is necessary to be prudent and careful.


William Findlay Maclean: Then what the minister is practically justifying is 'paying extravagant rents to their friends here in Ottawa, where a judicious administration would borrow the money necessary to put up the proper buildings, and get much better build ings for a much smaller rate of interest than the rents they are now paying. I ask him now whether he intends to continue that system. It is not in the public interest, it is not on the lines of econmy, and it is not on the lines of the professions that the hon. gentleman made in former days.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman is altogether mistaken when he says we are renting from our friends. The former government were paying a good many of these rentals when we took office.


Mr. CLARKE.: It would be good policy on the part of the government to buy this whole block on Wellington Street fronting the parliament buildings which would give us in future the additional accommodation that will have to be provided, before land increases any more in value in this part of the city.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Property is becoming scarcer in Ottawa. I would like very much to have some expression of opinion from the House on this proposition of my hon. friend, because it is a very important question indeed. On the other hand, the House must not forget that it will cost money to erect public buildings.


William Findlay Maclean: As to buying very expensive property for public buildings, I do not quite approve of that. I would rather go in for the system that obtains in Washington where they scatter their public buildings over the city. If you attempt to expropriate this property in front of us on Wellington Street, you will have to pay $1,000 a foot. There are a number of properties that could be got In other portions of the city half a mile from here where you can probably get land for 50 or 75 dollars a foot frontage. But it is the duty of the government to come forward with some plan, and take the responsibility. The House should not find a plan for them.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have already been trying to buy property, and have looked over a number of properties, but I find land very dear.


William Findlay Maclean: Go over in Hull.


Mr. INGRAM.: Does the government own Nepean Point now ?


The MINISTER OP FINANCE.: My hon. friend would not like to see that whole point occupied, I am inclined to think, with public buildings. Something can he said for keeping a portion of it free. It is proposed to erect the mint in that vicinity close by the Printing Bureau, but even that has been objected to by the military authorities. Speaking for myself, my sympathies run strongly in the direction of having more public buildings where we can accommodate the business of all the departments in buildings belonging to the government. But I am not prepared to admit that these rents are extravagant, as the hon. member for York (Mr. Maclean) contends. It is quite possible these rents may represent a reasonable return to the capitalists, and not an extravagant return. We have undertaken the erection of buildings in Ottawa, which, in round numbers will reach doubtless $1,000,000. I do not think I am wrong when I say that taking the proposed new museum, which, necessarily will be a large building, the mint and the observatory, you will find that we are undertaking to add to our buildings in Ottawa to the extent of about $1,000,000, which, I think, is a liberal allowance, and I think it would not be too much to wait a year or two before we add to our obligations for other buildings in Ottawa, although I quite admit it is better to have a number of good public buildings, even if they may be scattered somewhat through the city, than to be compelled to rent a lot of third floors and places of that kind.
Rents, repairs, fuel, lighting water service, janitors, watchmen, charwomen, &c.,-Yukon public buildings, $76,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is in connection with the Yukon Territory ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to ask the government if they have received any complaints about the Treadgold concession and what they purpose doing about it. Perhaps the hon. Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton) would be the proper minister to answer that question. If he is absent through illness, we have nothing but sympathy for him. There is a strong feeling against the government to-day in that country if we can place any reliance upon the information that comes from that distant quarter of the country, and the government do not seem to be doing anything to improve the situation unless they erect more buildings there.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Treadgold business has nothing to do with rents, repairs, fuel, lighting and water service in the Yukon. The Minister of the Mr. MACLEAN.
Interior is not here but when he is in his seat no doubt the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) will ask him for an explanation and I have no doubt that his explanation will satisfy the hon. gentleman. In the meantime, I am asking for $76,500 for rents, repairs, fuel, lighting, water service, &c., in the Yukon.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: According to that I take it that the government have not sufficient accommodation for the transaction of public business and are obliged to rent.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, I have a complete list of the buildings that we are obliged to rent, to repair, to heat and so on.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What buildings were erected last year for the use of the government ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The buildings we erected last year and the year before are the post office, court-house, administration building and governor's* house.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What did they cost in the aggregate ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The post office cost $50,246, court-house, $55,299, administration building, which is a large building, $134,244. Government house, the governor's residence, $41,534.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: When the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Tarte) speaks of $14,000 for the governor's house, he means the cost of construction ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: But this item does not include any of the cost of construction ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No. My hon friend (Mr. Sproule) asks me the cost of construction and I give it to him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That will be the gold commissioner's office ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, it is the governor's house.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then you have a quasi kind of government there. What I wish to draw attention to is this ; I notice by an item in a Dawson paper that the council use the gold commissioner's office for a court-house ; to which I do not see any reasonable objection, but it means that this country appears to be providing accommodation for the municipal corporation there as well as for the government's requirements, and therefore, it may be that we are spending more money than we otherwise would, so as to be able to provide a build-

ing suitable for the accommodation of both.
I take it that the municipal corporation pays no rent for the use of this building.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think we are doing that. We are simply providing for the federal administration.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I merely draw attention to the fact that they are using it and I have in my hand a Dawson paper which says so. I only referred to the fact that I might ask, if, on account of this, we were committing ourselves to a larger expenditure than we otherwise would.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, no.


William Findlay Maclean: Here is an item of $76,500 for the maintenance of public buildings in the Yukon, a comparatively small place and therefore small administration, and five or six items down we find that the total cost of the maintenance of the Ottawa public buildings is $67,000. This is an extraordinary comparison. We pay $76,500 in the Yukon and $67,000 down in Ottawa. I think we should have a little more detail.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sorry to say that the amount which I am asking for here does not represent the whole amount. These estimates were prepared before Governor Ross came down here and if the committee will give me two minutes of its time it will find that there is no extravagance. I was thunderstruck, so to speak, the first time that these estimates were placed before me. I do not understand why things were so high in the Yukon. Mr. Ross is a prudent man, and I have some officers there who are very able and prudent men. I consulted business men from Dawson citv and I have come to the conclusion that there is no extravagance. If my bon. friend will listen to me, I will give him a few details. Tlfe expenditure is divided under the following heads : Fuel, lighting, rents, water, scavenging, janitor, night-watchman, charwomen, repairs to public buildings and furniture. The committee will not ask me to give every detail-


Uriah Wilson: I think the hon. minister might give each item.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am just going to give the amounts now. Fuel, administration building, 350 cords of fire-wood at $20 per cord.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Only $20 a cord.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, it cannot be got for less. We buy the wood for the government buildings not only in Dawson but all over that country. I have the details here. In all there was $35,000 for fuel. It is a big sum but I cannot help it. It has to be paid.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Is the fuel purchased by public tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They ask for prices.


Edward Frederick Clarke: By public tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand they ask for quotations on lists because there are only a few people who can supply wood there. I may say at once that when Mr. Ross went up I gave him to a very large extent-I will not say carte blanche-but supervision over all my officers.
I told him you will have to keep your two eyes open, and if something is going on that you do not approve, wire me.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has he wired you ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He has never wired me because things go on all right.


Edward Frederick Clarke: From whom was the wood purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know. The vouchers are all before tlie Public Accounts committee. The lighting cost $33,235 for the buildings all over ! the country and the rents $6,240. We do not pay much rent now. The water service costs $2,580 ; scavanging, $1,000 ; janitors, night watchmen and charwomen, $21,600.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh.


Mr. BELL.: Is there no reduction in the wages in the Yukon ?


William Findlay Maclean: Wages are going down.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would like if they would go down. I have consulted business men who have come here and they tell me you cannot get a charwoman for less than $5 a day. I cannot be accused of making jobs there. I do not know what is going on and so I cannot do anything wrong. The money has to be paid.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I wish to read the following statement to show that these buildings are being used as I have said a moment ago. I have here the Dawson ' Daily News ' of February 14, and it says :
Arrangements have been made for the city council to hold its first session, March 3, in the geld commissioner's court room. Other sessions of the council likely will also be held there indefinitely.
The city clerk and the mayor's offices, according to an intimation given by Governor Ross seme time ago, likely will be in the quarters at present occupied by tax collector E. Ward Smith. It is a large room and easily will accommodate all.
The gold commissioner's court room will be well adapted for the council. The judge's bench will do for the mayor, the court clerk's desk for the city clerk, and the barristers' long table

for the six councilman. All are close together, and on the sides will he ample room for the press reporters tables and the rear will accommodate the public.
It has been deemed much better for the city to accept quarters in the administration building at the outset than to endeavour to provide a building for Itself. The expense attendant on getting the young municipality on Its feet is the prime cause for accepting the courtesies extended by the Dominion government, and through the efforts of Governor Ross the way was first paved.
I have another issue of the same paper and it refers to a question which I wish to bring to the attention of the minister and to ask him if there is any truth in it. It says :
C. M. Woodworth, the barrister, arrived on the White Pass stage at noon. Mr. Woodworth has been absent several months, and for a portion of the time was in Ottawa. While there he was twice the guest of the Governor General and was entertained by two of the cabinet ministers, and met many of the other ministers and officials.
According to Mr. Woodworth, the Yukon will be granted parliamentary representation the present session of parliament, and may be allowed two members.
I would like to ask the minister if that is in contemplation. If so, we have had no information of it so far.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, well, I do not know anything about that. It is asking me too much. I cannot say about that.


William Findlay Maclean: The minister was giving us other information.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The two other items are repairs to public buildings $15,000 and furniture $5,000. My deputy minister tells me that that makes $93,000 which is more than I am asking in this vote.


Mr. KEMP.: I am afraid that the officers of the department have very extravagant ideas in connection with these Yukon supplies, and certain items in the Auditor General's Report at page V-48 seem to bear that idea out. We have an account for two wine _decanters, $10 ; whisky set, $5 ; mirror, $25 ; and there are other supplies of ale, and wine and whisky charged for at page V-47 of the Auditor General's Report. There is also a charge for 12 feet of extra table, $45. I suppose that is an ordinary table. Sheets are charged for at $3 a pair, I am not prepared to say what is the price in this part of the country, but I am informed that they are worth about $1 a pair. I do not wish to be picayune in criticising these things, but if these extravagant prices are paid m the Yukon it is no wonder that the appropriations are so large.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am sure if I had the pleasure of going into my hon. friend's house, I would find more Mr. SPROTTLE.
expensive furniture than any that Mr. Ross has bought for himself. I do not believe that my hon. friend can buy decent sheets for a dollar apiece; nor do I think that $25 is an extraordinary price to gay for a mirror. I see gentlemen around me who have more expensive furniture in their houses.


Mr. COCHRANE.: They pay for it themselves. They do not pay for it with my money.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is a very small argument. The governor of the Yukon is not bound to pay for his furniture himself. I may say that I placed $5,000 at his disposal to enable him to buy his own furniture. I thought it was only fair to allow him that freedom. I am sure Mr. Ross has acted prudently.


William Findlay Maclean: I gather, from what I have read in the newspapers, that prices in the Yukon have come down to hard-pan, but I see no evidence of that in the government accounts. The profits of miners, the rates of wages, and I believe the prices of supplies have come down; the government also,
I understand, have cut down the rates of transportation; and I think a little care exercised by them would secure hard-pan prices for the government.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not think my hon. friend is familiar with the conditions in the Yukon, or he would not say that prices have come down to hard-pan, which I suppose means the same prices that prevail in other parts of the Dominion.


William Findlay Maclean: No, I mean hard-pan for the Yukon.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I may say that quite recently I had an opportunity to consult judges who reside in the Yukon and others entirely independent of the administration, who have come from there, and, to illustrate the conditions prevailing in that part of the country, I am told that an ordinary maid servant will not hire for less than $100 a month, and you cannot rent the meanest sort of residence for less than $150 a month. If these are the prevailing prices in the country, it is of course impossible to complain of the rates paid by my hon. friend in connection with the Public Works Department.


Mr. BENNETT.: May I ask the Minister of Justice if he has read recently an interview in one of the newspapers with Mr. Justice Craig, of the Yukon district, who stated in that interview that all sorts of irregularities were being carried on by officers of the government, and that the charges made by the hon. member for Pictou (Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) from his place in the House a few sessions ago, were not a bit overstated. In view of these statements made by Mr. Justice Craig, does the Minis-

ter of Justice propose to have an investigation ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I have not had the advantage of reading the interview to which my hon. friend refers; but I have had the advantage of several personal conferences with Mr. Justice Craig, some of them in the presence of the Auditor General, within the last few weeks, and he never suggested anything of the character mentioned by my hon. friend.


William Humphrey Bennett: I can only say that it is remarkable that although this statement has been spread broadcast throughout the press, Mr. Justice Craig lias not taken any oiiportunity of contradicting it.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: As this interview came to the knowledge of my hon. friend, and as Mr. Justice Craig was here until a few days ago, I think it would have been better to have had him called before the Public Accounts Committee.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not suppose every member of the House has time to keep himself instructed as to the movements of Mr. Justice Craig. I would suppose that the Minister of Justice himself, under the circumstances, would have brought him to the Public Accounts Committee, instead of expecting gentlemen on this side of the House to do so.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I never heard of the statement before.


Robert Laird Borden: Every one who pays much attention to the public press must have seen it. I saw it myself.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: In that case the hon. gentleman should have brought it to the attention of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: I took it for granted that the government were alive. My hon. friend does not deny that it was published in the public press. However, I would like the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Public Works to explain to the House on what principle it is that the officials of the Yukon are now paid on a different basis from other officials. Judges or other officials in other parts of the country do not for the most part receive living allowances apart from their salaries. I am willing to concede that in the Yukon the salaries must be higher ; but what I do not understand is, why our officers there are not paid one lump salary, and left to provide their own living allowances. 1 think that is a more satisfactory mode of dealing with such matters than the mode that still prevails.


The MINISTER OF PUBDIC WORKS.: I may say that in a day or two there will be only one officer of my department remaining in the Yukon district. We are giving him an allowance of $75 a month. All the others will be recalled. The telegraph
line and all our other public works there for the time being are completed.


Mr. WARD.: There is an item on page V-57 of the Auditor General's Report, of which I would ask an explanation from the Minister of Public Works. It is 50 head of eattle, 44,000 lbs., at 30 cents, and $100 paid to a man for killing these cattle.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That item has reference to the construction of the telegraph line. It has no connection with this item at all.


William Humphrey Bennett: From the Dawson ' Weekly News ' of February 14th, I find it stated that a Mr. Woodworth, a barrister of Dawson City, had been east; and, when he returned to Dawson, in an interview with a newspaper man, he said :
Mr. Sifton, Mr. Woodworth says, keeps in complete touch with the Yukon, and has clippings of all affairs touching his Yukon administration sent to him personally.
Perhaps in the Department of the Interior might be found a clipping containing the statements of Mr. Justice Craig. If the item stood over and the Department of the Interior were communicated with, we might get something in reference to those statements.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Will my hon. friend give me the date of the paper in which that interview was published? I probably will be able to reach Mr. Justice Craig by telegraph in the next day or two.


William Humphrey Bennett: I regret that I have mislaid the paper, but I think that my hon. friend the leader of the opposition has a ",opy.


Robert Laird Borden: I have a copy and will give it to the hon. minister.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the hon. minister say he never saw the clipping ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I never saw or heard of it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What control have we over the wood lands ? Are they still in the hands of the parties who tried to get control a few years ago ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have not found any coal there, and I can only answer for the wood supplied me. The Minister of Interior has charge of the land, and there will be ample opportunity to discuss the whole situation in the Yukon. I can only answer for my department. [DOT]
Furniture Dominion public buildings, $12,000. Dominion immigration buildings-repairs, furniture, &c., $4,000.


Mr. BROCK.: What accommodation have we in the shape of immigrant buildings in this country to receive immigrants when they arrive ? We are spending a very large amount to bring them here, and if the accommodation is very poor when they

arrive, we lose a good deal of the advantages we would otherwise get from them. I have heard that immigrants who arrived in Winnipeg in the early spring were so badly accommodated that many became discontented with the country and went back to the United States. I would like to ask what accommodation wTe are providing In this country for those immigrants we are bringing in, not only from Europe but from the United States.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have already a number of buildings for immigration purposes-at Halifax, Quebec, LCvis, Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, Prince Albert, Regina, St. John and other places. I quite agree with my hon. friend that we must treat the immigrants as well as possible. We have endeavoured to do so in the past, but if the immigration continues growing we will be obliged to do more.


Mr. TAYLOR.: Where is this $4,000 to be expended ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is the ordinary expenditure on repairs in the buildings all over the country.


Mr. POPE.: Are we providing accommodation for immigrants who land here and are going to the United States ? To-day in the city of Montreal, there are more than 200 cases of contagious diseases in the hospitals-ail people who came into this country bound for the United States.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is not from my personal knowledge that there are 200 foreigners in our hospitals in Montreal, but that may be the case. We have no immigration building in Montreal. In Lfrvis, St. John and Quebec we have divisions in our buildings, dividing the immigrants destined for this country from those going to the United States, and we have different arrangements for each. Last year we completed our arrangements in Quebec and are now completing them in St. John.


Rufus Henry Pope: Do we furnish, at our expense, covering for those people who go to the United States ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We are simply sheltering them as we shelter foreign trade. The immigration trade here is a very valuable one. There are lots of goods of all kinds that pass through and for which we have to provide accommodation. We provide for immigrants in Just the same way. The inspection is not made at our expense at all.


Edward Frederick Clarke: You provide accommodation for them, whether they intend remaining here or going to the United States.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Suppose the Allan and Dominion steamship lines and the Canadian Pacific Railway and Mr. BROCK.
the Canada Atlantic will carry American immigrants, are we not bound to shelter them ?


Rufus Henry Pope: No, let the railways shelter them.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If we did not shelter them, they would not come to our territory and we would lose that trade.


Mr. McCREARY.: You have a lot of Canadian immigrants sheltered in New York city, who arrive there and come to Canada, and a great many of them are in the hospitals there.


Andrew B. Ingram: When was the building located at St. John ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is now being completed. We discussed the item a few days ago. It was begun last year.


Andrew B. Ingram: I find an item here-not very large, it is true-but it strikes me that legal gentlemen come very high in St. John, much higher than in Ontario :
McAlplne, E. H., barrister, professional services locating premises for building, $8 ; preparing deed, $8 ; search at registry office, 1? days, $40 ; sundry, $1.41.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have employed some legal gentlemen from Ontario, and I find that they know just as well how to make a charge as those from the maritime provinces. I may add that all the fees are prepared in the Department of Justice, and I have nothing to do with them. The land was given to us.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I would like to ask about this item of furniture. Is it purchased by public tender, and are the local merchants and dealers given an opportunity to tender ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That item of $12,000 covers1 expenditure for furniture for all the public buildings. If I remember well, we have 185 public buildings under our care, and this small sum is to cover requisitions that may be made upon us by caretakers and others. It is simply to cover petty items of expenditure for furniture.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Where is it purchased ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is purchased locally. With only $12,000 scattered all over the country, we could not adopt any system of purchase and at any central point.


Edward Frederick Clarke: ' Is any of it purchased in Ottawa ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is under another item altogether.


Rufus Henry Pope: I still take objection to our expending Canadian public money for a class of people the whole benefit of whose

appearance in Canada goes to the transportation companies. I know of no reason why the railway companies and shipowners should not furnish that accommodation, just as they furnish accommodation for baggage, freight or any other item from which they benefit, and the benefit to the country is only indirect. In this matter of immigration, I am afraid that we are subject not only to great cost, but to great danger because we allow all sorts of people to land in this country. The United States keep an army of officers to inspect the immigration into their country. From such information as I get from the Bureau at Washington, I am inclined to think that a very large percentage-even a very large majority-of the immigrants landing In this country are destined for the United States and that we, under such items as this we are discussing, are furnishing cover for people who intend to become American citizens. If even the large majority of the people, landing on our shores had points in Canada for their destination, that would alter the case. But the statistics of the Washington Bureau are against that belief, and our statistics are not well kept in comparison with theirs. These immigrants are all counted by United States officers as they pass on the trains, and reports sent into the Bureau. Those statistics show that we are furnishing cover to people who do not intend to become Canadian citizens, and that is not just to the tax payer of this country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would, perhaps agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Pope) to a certain extent if we had erected or were asking parliament for money to erect buildings intended exclusively for foreign immigration. But that is not the case.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But you do not discriminate.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Here is what we have done and what we are doing. We are putting up an immigration building at St. John. That is our winter port; all our own immigration comes from that port, and we must provide for it. My department has been asked to provide a corner, if I may so say it, in the immigration building. And the same is true of Quebec. I was asked to provide rooms for American officers to inspect American immigration.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Why should we provide accommodation for American officers ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I take issue with my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke). Though in these matters, I am only a builder, and it is not for me to defend this part of the policy, yet, I take issue with the hon. gentleman. The immigration trade is good trade for us to
have. Our navigation companies and railway companies benefit by it and our traders benefit by it also. Why should we not encourage it ? I cannot understand the hon. gentleman's reasons for objecting.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I am sorry that Halifax is Ignored altogether as a port for the arrival of immigrants. We have an immigration agent and we have immigration sheds, women to attend to them, and all the facilities for receiving immigrants. These people are carried to the port of Halifax by ships subsidized by the Dominion government. We have a road from Halifax extending to Montreal and running through our own country. I maintain that the immigrants that come in our own ships to our own port should go by our own railway into the centre of this Dominion. That would prevent them going to the United States. As for those who go to the United States, they are divided at Halifax, because they are on the manifest of the ship which shows so many immigrants going to this port or that port. Those coming to Canada should enter at the first port where the steamer arrives in the Dominion, particularly as that port has all the facilities to handle them; and they should certainly go by our own road into our own country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I may be allowed to remind my hon. friend that St. John is the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which has western connections. Unfortunately, the Intercolonial Railway has not those connections. When an immigrant lands in Canada, he is anxious to get aboard a car that will take him to his destination. That is the reason why St. John has been favoured in connection with that immigration in the past.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But would it not be a reasonable proposition that the railway companies that bring these immigrants through Canada into the United States and the steamship companies that bring them across the Atlantic should provide the accommodation necessary for these people ? There is no objection to treating them as they ought to be treated, but the question is who ought to bear the expense. For my part I say we ought to imitate the example of our friends of the other side-we should collect from the transportation companies for the inspection and temporary housing of immigrants who are not destined for points in Canada.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We do not pay a dollar for the inspecting. What we have done is simply to allow American officers the use of two or three rooms for the inspection of these immigrants.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But we should compel the steamship companies or somebody else

to provide the accommodation necessary for the inspection, and for housing the immigrants who are merely passing through Canada and whose destination is a foreign country. Surely that is not unreasonable.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not say that it is.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We have the statement made that, in view of the quality of the immigration coming to Canada, it was found necessary by the United States government, first to send a medical officer to Liverpool to inspect immigrants going to points in the United States through Canada. But that was not found effective, so they had to despatch officers to our own ports. They are inspecting immigrants coming to Canada and determining which shall be allowed to go to the United States. Ought there not to be some provision, not only with these people so that they could be treated rightly, but that, if they are not fit to land, they shall be taken back by the steamship company. Is it not reasonable to ask that the Canadian public should not have the expense placed on its shoulders, an expense which properly belongs to the steamship companies, to the railway companies or to the United States authorities ? I protest against expenditure for that purpose.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We must not fall into exaggeration. Of course, I am sure my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) does not mean to exaggerate. There are two immigration sheds used for foreign immigration purposes. One at St. John and one at Quebec.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) And Halifax.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Halifax, from what the hon. gentleman says, does not receive much immigration.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.).: We have ample accommodation.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The accommodation is all right. But there are only two places where foreign immigrants are landed. I make bold to say it does not cost the country $500 a year for that object, because we would be obliged to make provision for our own immigration, and we have made provision for it in point of fact. Foreign immigration is only an incident, if I may say so ; it does not cost anything worth speaking of.


Uriah Wilson: It has been stated in this House that the United States house immigrants at New York coming through that port into Canada. Now, is there any arrangement whereby they are to house our immigrants and we are to house theirs ? That would be reciprocity, and I see no good reason why, if they do that for us, we should not do something in return.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am not the head of that branch, and cannot say. But I do not share the doubts that are expressed now. My policy would be to give cheap transportation to all kinds of trade, to make provision by land and water for cheap transportation through the country, both of trade and of human beings, provided of course that we do not fall into excess in the way of expenditure.


Uriah Wilson: The hon. gentleman has not answered my question, whether there is an arrangement made between Canada and the United States that they should house our immigrants and we should house theirs?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am obliged to answer that it is not in my branch, and I do not know anything about it
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I may say, as one having had fourteen years experience with immigration in the port of Halifax, that immigrants are not housed, because the moment they arrive they are inspected by doctors, and the cars are all ready for them to take their passage. Those for the United States take passage for the United States, and those for Canada are carried into the interior. What have we the Intercolonial railway for unless it is to carry our immigrants from the port of their arrival in Canada ?
Dominion quarantine stations-maintenance, &c., $4,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We want some information in connection with this item. In the event of immigrants coming to the country, who land and may be found diseased, do they go into these quarantine stations, and are they kept there and fed, and their expenses paid until they are fit to go on to the United States, and do we bear all that expense ? I think whoever has charge of this quarantine station, whether the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of the Interior, ought to be able to tell us that. If the United States does the same thing the service would be mutual. But we want to know whether such an arrangement has been made. There ought to be some minister able to give us the information.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: The Minister of Agriculture in whose department-


William Findlay Maclean: He is in the garden of Eden. He will be back in a little while.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, he should stay there for some time. As soon as he is done, he will give us the information.


Albert Edward Kemp: I would like to point out an item in the Auditor General's Report, I do not profess to be an authority on the Auditor General's Report. I regret to say


Edward Frederick Clarke: X have very little time to study it. But my study thus far has convinced me that the Department of Public Works is being imposed upon, I do not know to what extent. There is a tendency sometimes for individuals to charge the government two prices for things. If the tender system were adopted, that might be avoided to some extent. Once in a while an item will catch one's eye, and I find on page V-68 in the Auditor General's Report an item of $1,293.61, including a certain article which I know something about, and that is a galvanized iron boiler. It is 120 gallon galvanized iron boiler, and it is charged here at $84, while the value of that article is only $37. I do not know what system prevails in the department of checking prices, I do not know how often that kind of thing occurs. But we are paying out here hundreds of thousands of dollars of public money, in fact, millions of dollars ; and it is possible we are voting away hundreds of thousands of dollars more than we ought to. Certainly we are doing so, if that kind of thing occurs very often.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My bon. friend states we have paid $84 for an article that he knows is worth $137. Is he sure of that ?


Albert Edward Kemp: I have no doubt about it, I know the value of it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Having no doubt and being sure, are two different things. There are boilers and boilers. I cannot believe my officers would make a mistake like that. Of course a minister cannot be expected to check all these accounts. But if my officers are guilty of such mistakes they are no good.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, I say if they are no good they never have been good, because I inherited nearly all of them. But they are good, and they have not made that mistake.


Albert Edward Kemp: I may explain to the minister that this is an article carried by all first-class plumbers in stock, and he can inquire the value of it himself.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It depends. I have seen a lot of boilers in my time, and have not seen two that were quite alike. This is not the first time I have been on the floor of the House, and I have heard statements like that on many occasions. But I will look into this immediately. At six o'clock I will wire to the man who paid for it, and if he is incapable enough to be imposed upon, he does not deserve to be in my employ. I am thankful to my hon. friend for drawing my attention to it.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I would say to the Minister of Public Works that we have heard that statement for a great many years. It is hoary with age, if not with respectability.
I think he knows away down deep in his heart that that job is being perpetrated every day. We have had brought out in the public accounts just such transactions as that. I think his official does it under his instructions, that is my impression in the matter. '	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not one word to say in answer to the hon. gentleman.


John William Bell: This item occurs in connection with the expenditure at Grosse Isle. I think if the minister will look into the matter he will find that some very extraordinary prices are paid for things at Grosse Isle. I have been looking over some of the accounts, and I think that establishment is paying nearly 100 per cent more for everything it buys than the regular market price. One item that caught my eye in the Auditor General's Report is eight cents a pound for putty. They are paying over forty cents a gallon for kerosene oil. I assure the Minister of Public Works that he will be well employed if he will make an excursion into these accounts in connection with the quarantine station at Grosse Isle.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is nothing I would like better than to have these accounts brought up before the Public Accounts Committee.


John William Bell: Some of them are now before the committee.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am anxious now that the hon. member for Pictou and the hon. member for Toronto have taken up some of these items, to have them brought before the Public Accounts Committee. I shall be delighted.


John William Bell: Some of them are before the committee.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No objection at all ; very far from it. Here is the way these accounts are paid ; they are certified first by the clerk of the works on the spot. They are then sent to Ottawa and certified again by the chief architect. I have nothing to do with them. Of course it is not to be expected that a minister could check all of these accounts. He must necessarily trust his chief officers. If he cannot do so, what other course is open to him. I am anxious that all these accounts should be brought up and my hon. friends will find that they are altogether mistaken. I do not pretend to say that a great department cannot be imposed upon as any other business man is. There is not a business man in this parliament who has never been imposed upon, and the department is imposed upon at times. I will be very glad to have all these items investigated.


John William Bell: Does the hon. minister wish the House to understand that in passing an

account for a galvanized iron boiler his final court of appeal is his chief architect ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Certainly.


John William Bell: His architect is supposed to be an authority on galvanized iron boilers.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: What am I going to do if the chief architect of a great department is not able to certify as to the purchasing of a boiler ; if he is not able to do that he is unable to do anything.


William Rees Brock: This is one of the great troubles of this day labour government. It is quite possible to get over the difficulty and the hon. minister knows it. All he has to do is to ask for tenders. He can easily get tenders for boilers. There is not a plumber in Ottawa, or out of Ottawa, who is not willing to tender. As the hon. member for East Toronto (Mr. Kemp) says, these boilers are kept in stock by all first-class plumbers and there is no difficulty in getting them to tender. I think if the hon. minister would adopt business methods and mix less politics in the business of his department he would get better value.


George Taylor: The hon. member for Pic-tou (Mr. Bell) referred to some items in an account that he saw. The hon. Minister of Public Works said in reply that these accounts are certified to by certain officials. Here is an account for $811 paid to Mr. A. Laberge, Montmagny. It is certified right and signed by Mr. Langlois and Mr. Lapointe. Mr. Lapointe signs it by making his mark. It is certified still further by another gentleman named Martineau. First it is approved by Mr. Jarvis for $848 and Mr. Martineau signs the certificate saying :
I hereby certify that the above account is correct, &c., and that the prices named are fair and just.
It is the standard certificate. These three officers, and I intend to have some of them examined, say that at the city of Quebec, 163 pounds of putty are worth 8 cents a pound and that the price is fair and just and correct. If one of these gentlemen can only make his mark, I do not think he can purchase goods and know the value of them. There is not a man in this House that cannot go down town and buy putty for 2 or 3 cents a pound. There are several barrels of coal oil in this account at 32 cents a gallon and 2 pounds of white lead, Elephant brand, at $2.10 per pound, or $4.50. Surely the hon. minister will know that there is a rake off on goods purchased at these prices. Among the items for the quarantine station at Grosse Isle are two pairs of snow shoes at $3 a pair. Why do these gentlemen want snow shoes furnished by this government at $3 a pair ? So, I might go on. Perhaps, before the session is over,


John William Bell: I will read this account in detail showing every item of that $811. There is hardly an item amongst them that will bear a fair comparison


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Will my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) kindly let me have that paper ?


George Taylor: Certainly. I have another one certified to in the same way commencing on the 7th July, 1900. Here is a bottle of Hennesy's brandy, and there are eight or nine of them through the account. On the 9th of July there was purchased a ton of chestnut coal for $8.50, eggs 15 and 10 cents a dozen during July when they were worth from 6 to 10 cents at the outside.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Oh.


George Taylor: That is correct. Iu July and August you can buy eggs at 10 cents a dozen. There is a barrel of granulated sugar, 306 pounds, at 61 cents a pound. Everybody knows the price of sugar. Then, there are 7 barrels of coal oil at 32 cents a gallon for the oil and $1.25 for the barrel besides. This, in my opnion, accounts for the great increase in the public expenditure during the last four or five years. The hon. Minister of Public Works is asking for these items and he assures us that they represent the usual votes, but the fact is that where lie is asking for $125,000 to-day, in 1895 and 1896 $90,000 would have been asked for the same services. I find the whole item, No. 163, amounts to $608,500, but if the hon. gentleman will turn to the estimates for 1896, the same item which was numbered 148 then, he will find that while he asks for $608,000, the same services were performed more efficiently in the former year for $436,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: All the services provided for now were not there then.


George Taylor: Deduct the Yukon and there is an increase of $95,200. The whole thing is accounted for by these excessive prices as in the case to which my hon. friend from East Toronto (Mr. Kemp) referred in which three prices were paid for a galvanized boiler. The hon. Minister of Public Works says there are boilers and boilers. There are not two kinds of galvanized iron boilers.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are more than two kinds.


George Taylor: Every one knows what a galvanized boiler is. My hon. friend (Mr. Kemp) manufactures them, and he knows the price. It is by paying two or three prices to political friends that our money is wasted.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, now, see how a man can be unwillingly unfair. Why, I have nothing to do

with that at all. That is a matter which belongs to the Department of Agriculture.


George Taylor: It is the government all the same.
desirable immigrants should come here, immigrants who are fit to associate with us and to take their rank as good citizens. We should not advertise that Canada is a rendezvous for the outcasts of Europe.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Taylor) says that I did this and I did that, and I am not responsible for this at all, because he will see on the face of it that the account is certified by Mr. Jarvis, Secretary of the Department of Agriculture.


George Taylor: I know that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Taylor) charges me with having bought snowshoes and sugar. It is not a crime to buy snowshoes or sugar, but I have not bought the sugar and have not used the snowshoes. I am not guilty on this occasion, because I have done nothing at all.


Rufus Henry Pope: The Minister of Public Works should not endeavour to get out of the responsibility at the expense of his colleague (Hon. Mr. Fisher). I can quite understand that even the Minister of Public Works would not like to assume responsibility for the Minister of Agriculture. I have no doubt that at this very moment the Minister of Public Works feels somewhat uncomfortable in finding himself on the floor of the House battling for the government while the Minister of Agriculture sits up aloft enjoying these pleasantries that can only be found in the gallery above. The Minister of Public Works undertook the responsibility of crossing the floor of the House to the gentlemen opposite, when he perhaps could have remained on this side in respectable company. But having crossed the floor he must take responsibility for his actions. Now there is a very serious matter connected with this vote. It is for quarantine stations, and it seems to me that we are spending all this money for the purpose of taking care of diseased - and rotten immigrants from Europe.


Some hon. MEMBER.: Oh.


Rufus Henry Pope: Yes, they are rotten with disease and unfit to associate with the citizens of Canada, and they are shut out of the United States. Here we are spending money trying to cure these miserable specimens of humanity, and when they are cured at our expense they cross over to the United States. Even if they remained in this country, it is a bad policy that we should advertise to the world that any one would be allowed to settle in Canada except a people who are morally and physically healthy. I believe that to a large extent this quarantine expenditure is for the purpose of taking care of these undesirable immigrants who come to Canada trying to find their way to the United States. It behooves the government to see to it that none but


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That question is certainly worthy of consideration, and it can be properly discussed when the immigration vote is before the House.
Ottawa-public btiil'dings-telephone service, $7,000.


William Findlay Maclean: The Minister of Justice told us the other day that my telephone Bill did not cover the ground and that his did. If his Bill is going to be of any use in decreasing the cost of telephones, why are j ou taking an extra vote for telephones here ? What rate do you pay.?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have a special rate of $35 each instrument,


William Findlay Maclean: But we have an increase in the vote for telephones here, and that does not carry out the promise that the Minister of Justice made when he told us that his Bill would reduce the cost of telephones to the public.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no increase in the price, but we are obliged to have an increased number of telephones because we have more public buildings than formerly.


William Findlay Maclean: Does not the Minister of Justice intend to get a reduction of rentals under his Bill ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The Minister of Justice has charge of that Bill.


William Findlay Maclean: I know he has, and the Minister of Justice should be here.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He is not far away, and when the Bill comes up it will be time to discuss it.


William Findlay Maclean: If the Bill has the effect which the Minister of Justice promised that it would have, this vote should be decreased rather than increased.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If the Bill has that effect we will not spend so much money as we do now.


Mr. LEMIEUX.: While we are speaking of telephones, I may say that for the last week the telephone in the House of Commons has been out of order.


Samuel Hughes: I draw the attention of the minister to the fact that when a member from room 6 wants to use the telephone he has to come around the building and then he is likely to find the messengers and pages using it. I should like to

have a telephone In room 6, or somewhere near there.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We should have a telephone In room 6. Is there a telephone, in room 16 ?


Some hon. MEMBERS: No.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, then, we must have the same thing in room 16.


John William Bell: How many additional telephones have you this year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. minister define the duties of a caretaker of a public building ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The duty of a caretaker of a public building is to take charge oi it, to keep it clean and in a state of repair, and to give us notice if anything is wrong.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who inspects the public buildings ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief architect and other officers. They do not inspect every building every year, however.


Andrew B. Ingram: Some of the caretakers have a holy horror of water. It must be against their principles to use any water.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In
what province ?


Andrew B. Ingram: In the province of Ontario. If the inspectors were asked to have a little more water used in some of our public buildings, they might be kept a little cleaner.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Would the hon. gentleman tell me what buildings are not kept clean ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I would not like to single them out.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If my hon. friend will write me a private letter about them, I shall be thankful to him.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the hon. gentleman explain this increase ?


Samuel Hughes: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is due to the fact that we have a larger number of public buildings to look after.


Uriah Wilson: I understand that the caretakers do not take care of the different offices. I think there are some post offices where the postmasters are allowed a percentage of the box rents for keeping the office clean, while the caretaker is only expected to keep the lobbies and the outside parts of the building clean.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think the hon. gentleman is now alluding to buildings which do not belong to us.


Uriah Wilson: No. Take, for instance, the public building in the tovffi of Napanee. If I am correctly informed, it is not the duty of the caretaker to keep the inside of the post office clean, but it is the duty of the postmaster, who for that reason gets half the rent of the boxes.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My officers tell me that my hon. friend is wrong-that Mr. Webster's duty is to take care of the public building and keep it clean, for which he gets $400, and if he has not done his duty we have not been notified of the fact.


Uriah Wilson: I think that the minister will find that there are printed instructions to the caretakers, and, if I am correctly informed, they are not obliged to do that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, yes, they are.


Uriah Wilson: Will the hon. gentleman tell us what the postmaster gets half the rent of the boxes for ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The postmaster looks after the collection of the rents, and in all post offices where the postmaster himself owns the building he gets all the rentals of the boxes ; but in the case of a building owned by the government, the postmaster gets an allowance for the trouble of collecting the rents.


Uriah Wilson: It is not a great deal of trouble for the postmaster to collect the rents if they all do it as the postmaster of Napanee does. A printed notice is put in each box that if the rent is not paid within a certain time, the box will be given to some one else. I understand that the postmaster is allowed half the rent ; and, although the building belongs to the country, I know that the postmaster has to clean the inside of it.


William Findlay Maclean: Before we leave this vote for public buildings, I would like the Minister of Public Works to make an explanation in regard to telephones! The hon. minister says the price in Ottawa is $35.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


William Findlay Maclean: Is there a uniform price j charged the government in all other cities ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have made a special arrangement in Ottawa, under which, instead of being charged two prices-one for private residences and the other for business telephones-we are charged the uniform price of $35 per telephone. Does my hon. friend want to know how much we pay elsewhere ?


William Findlay Maclean: When we are obtaining a uniform price for Ottawa, why not have a uniform charge for the public service throughout the Dominion ? I hope that when we come to regulate the rentals of these telephone companies, as they will be regulated by the Bill going through the House, the public will secure the best possible rate in the same way. If you get a telephone service in Ottawa at $35, the country should not pay much more.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have very few telephones outside of Ottawa. We have discouraged their use as much as possible in our public buildings elsewhere. We have not more than ten or twelve outside of Ottawa, and in Ottawa we have made a special arrangement


Edward Frederick Clarke: Does the company not make enormous charges elsewhere ?	.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They charge a great deal, and I am not here to defend them.


William Findlay Maclean: If the jurisdiction over the telephone companies should fall into the hands of the Railway Committee of the Privy Council, I hope that the hon. minister will be assiduous in trying to get the public rates reduced. If the government gets a cheap rate of $35 in Ottawa, the public should get a similar rate all over the country.
Arnold's Breakwater, Nova Scotia, $1,700.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works to some matters in connection with public works in Nova Scotia. There is no doubt at all that the harbour and river service in Nova Scotia requires a considerable amount of appropriation, and I am not finding fault with the general principle that our harbours and rivers should be assisted, but from information in my possession, some of the money expended during the past few years has been little better than absolutely wasted. Of course, I have no personal knowledge, but the information given me comes from an entirely unprejudiced source-from political friends of the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Finance, in whose constituency-I refer to the Minister of Finance-a good deal of this expenditure has been made. Take the
xpenditure for the purpose of cutting a canal between a lake at Black Point in the county of Shelburne or Queen's-I do not know which-and tidal water. The information given me by a gentleman, who has personal knowledge, is that the project was to cut a canal between tide-water and the lake for the purpose of affording shelter to fishermen. The project had been reported on years ago adversely by the engineer in charge, Mr. Dodwell. That is the information given, not by Mr. Dodwell, but by this gentleman to whom I refer.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no Black Point in our books. Is there any other name by which the place is known 1


Robert Laird Borden: The harbour at Black Point near Lockeport. It seems that afterwards a gentleman by the name of Locke, a civil engineer, who was placed in charge of a portion of the south shore, reported favourably on the construction of this canal. Mr. Dodwell had said it was no use undertaking the work because the bottom of the lake was higher than tidewater, and the construction of the work could not possibly result in any advantage to the fishermen; but under Mr. Locke's report, the canal was cut at considerable expense, and it was found that the bottom of the lake was above tide-water, so that the water simply ran out of the lake and the expenditure was absolutely thrown away. This is worse than waste of public money, and the Minister of Public Works should inform the House whether or not the statement I have made is correct.
I am informed also that the breakwater at Port Latour, on which some $10,000 has been expended, is not of the least service to those it was intended to benefit. The hon. Minister of Finance may have some personal knowledge with regard to these matters. These statements are very widely spread throughout Nova Scotia, particularly along the south shore, and do not tend to increase confidence in the minister of public affairs at Ottawa.
I am also informed that the breakwater near Port Mouton, west of Liverpool, which costs some $20,000, was nearly all washed up on the beach the first winter, and is of no practical service.
Then there is the work at Clark's harbour, in reference to which a very strong supporter of the Minister of Finance broke out into song in a paper called the ' Coast Guard.' I do not know whether his verses have ever been brought to the attention of my hon. friend the Minister of Finance.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, I had the pleasure of reading them.


Robert Laird Borden: I am sure my hon. friend must have been favourably impressed.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I think my hon. friend might give them to us again.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not undertake to give the whole of the song, but only a couple of stanzas :
Coast Guard.
Wot's that up thar in1 Skote P'iut Creek,
That good half mile o' stoue in' stick ?-
Dear Christian friends pray tell me quick ! Wae that, by golly,
Is wot we call a spes'men brick O' Fieldin's folly.
*****
The only trade o' any note That sich a structer can permote Is catchin' all the ice afloat W'en tides is swift An' holdin' every cfanky vote From goin' adrift.
This gentleman, who is said to be a political friend of the Minister of Public Works, seems to have very strong impressions as to the purpose for which this structure was erected.
The wharf at Gunning Cove, which cost upwards of $3,000, is regarded as of such little importance by the people in that vicinity that they have not even taken the trouble to open a road to it from the public highway, and practically do not use it at all. These five public works are works with regard to the expenditure on which there is considerable feeling along the southern coast of Nova Scotia. The opinion is generally held that the money has been wasted to a great extent and that the works have not proved of the slightest public utility.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is very gratifying to me, Mr. Chairman, to find my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax), taking such a warm interest in the affairs of Shelburne and Queen's counties. But it would be more gratifying if he would give us the source of his information. He tells us that he has no knowledge himself of these matters-a very proper observation-and then proceeds to give a statement of what somebody else says. But we are not favoured with the name of that somebody else, and we do not know whether his information is any more than that of the hon. gentleman which, he himself says, is nothing. If the leader of the opposition intends to impugn the propriety of these expenditures on the authority of a witness, he is bound to show the credibility of that witness, to let us know that he proceeds upon something more than mere hearsay statement of some one who is jealous because he did not get a job. We know that that sort of thing may occur in the case of any public work. The first public work that the hon. gentleman mentioned is not shown by that name in the accounts, and therefore I cannot deal with it. As to the work at Port la Tour, I desire to inform the hon. member that Port la Tour is one of the largest and Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
most prosperous fishing settlements in the maritime provinces, and contributes more largely to the statistics of the Fisheries Department than any other settlement, except one, in the lower provinces. The people there wanted a breakwater for the protection of their harbour, and the government entered upon the consideration of the question of providing it. Of course, the breakwater could not be finished at once. The breakwater has not served its full purpose, because it is not completed. Where we can get an opportunity at once to complete the work, the amount is spent and the work completed. But I have been very modest in my demands upon my colleagues for public works in the district I have the honour to represent, and in many of these works we have to be content to construct them piecemeal, doing what we can one year and waiting for a further appropriation. It is, therefore, absurd to speak of a work not being sufficiently useful until the work itself is completed. Another work referred to by the hon. gentleman was that at Clark's Harbour. If there is a settlement that is distinctly a fishing settlement, it is that of Clarke's Harbour on Cape Sable Island. It ranks with Port la Tour as one of the most prosperous in the country. Of course no public work was ever constructed where there was not a difference of opinion as to the location, the engineering arrangements and the people employed on the work. The people in that section sent in a petition asking for the construction of a breakwater. After several years-for this matter was not decided upon in a moment-and after several small appropriations were made and found insufficient, the work was undertaken and carried out by a competent engineer. It is, I believe, a very useful public work, and it can be made more useful still by being extended further. My hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) has spoken of an expenditure of $10,000. I am speaking from memory and subject to correction, but I do not think that $10,000 has been spent on any one public work in my constituency since I entered the government. There have been a number of small appropriations but none so large as this. The hon. gentleman referred to a Mr. Locke. It happens that ' a Mr. Locke ' is a very intelligent and capable civil engineer who is in the employ of the Public Works Department. I know him very well. He belongs to one of the best known and the most highly respected families of Nova Scotia, the Locke family of the western part of the province. He was trained in the office of the department of the provincial engineer of Nova Scotia when I was Prime Minister of the province. I know that he is an intelligent and capable young man. He is employed as an assistant engineer in Nova Scotia. I have never heard a question raised throughout the province of Nova Scotia as to the way in which he discharged his duties. That he would

permit a dollar to be wasted on any public work under bis control, I do not for a moment believe. I must decline to accept my bon. friend's statement. And, in justice to Mr. Locke, I protest against tbe idea that because some unknown correspondent raises tbe question whether money is wasted or not, we are to assume that there has been anything of that kind. 1 challenge the fullest investigation before the Public Accounts Committee as to the expenditure on all these works. In several instances it may be said that the works are not useful, but that is because the works have not been completed as it is intended to be. Every work has been designed to meet the wishes of the people, has been constructed in response to petition sent in, and after proper inquiry by an engineer representing the department. And I state in the fullest and most fearless manner that an investigation, if necessary, will prove that these statements are correct.
Mr. BOIiDEN (Halifax). I venture to say that the question whether Mr. Locke is a good engineer or not has not much to do with the question before the committee. I was not making an attack on Mr. Locke's capability in respect to other matters. But I say that I have information from two sources-not from sources such as the hon. minister suggests, but from people who have no interest in public works-


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Give the names.


Robert Laird Borden: They are not interested in public contracts at all, and one of them is a gentleman who is a political friend and supporter . of the hon. minister. I have the authority of that gentleman for saying that the statements I have made are correct. I have given the hon. gentleman the information exactly as it was .given to me by him. It does not make the slightest difference what the name of this gentleman may be-the question is whether the statements are true or not. That is it, the point we want to come to. But my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Fielding) desires to shunt this discussion to the question whether or not I am to give the name. I am not going to give the name, because it was given to me in confidence. But I am going to ask the Minister of Public Works to give information before this estimate goes through. And I will not wait for the Public Accounts Committee, as I want the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fielding) to understand. I want information as to the harbour at Black Point, and I want to know whether it is true that the bottom of the lake proved to be above tide water and whether or not the expenditure of a large sum of public money proved to be a mere humbug.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: What money ?


Robert Laird Borden: The money expended to cut a canal from the lake to tide water.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: How much ?


Robert Laird Borden: That is what I want to know. I do not carry the public accounts in my head. But we have ministers who are here to give us the information, and we will see that they give it. I wish information also concerning the expenditure at Gunning wharf. I wish to know how much that work has cost and also whether it is true, as I have been informed, that this work was of so little use that no public road has been opened to it from the highway near by. Then I desire information concerning the work at Port Mouton-how much that work has cost, and also whether a considerable portion of the work was washed up on the beach the .first winter. Then I wish to know how much was expended on Clarke's Harbour. ' The hon. gentleman says there was no sum of $10,000 expended.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: On any one work.


Robert Laird Borden: I wish to know how much has been expended on Clarke's Harbour, how much will be needed to complete it and of what public use it is at the present time. I wish the same information with regard to a harbour I did not mention, Wood's harbour. There is also the breakwater at Port la Tour. If the hon. Minister of Public Works will give us the facts in regard to these various expenditures, it will assist us in judging whether the statements which are freely made in the province of Nova Scotia with regard to these expenditures are correct or not. If they are correct, it is right that we should have the opportunity of criticising them. If they are not correct, it is right that public opinion should be assured on these points. Therefore, I trust that the Minister of Public Works will not find it inconvenient or burdensome, in putting through his estimates, to look into these matters which I have thought it my duty to bring to the attention of the House and to give ns the information, so that we may know whether the statements made to me, made in good faith, I am convinced and by a man whose reputation in the province of Nova Scotia is as good as that of any member of this House, bar none, are true or not. If they are not true, I want to know in what particular they are inaccurate.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My officers are taking note of every place that my hon. friend the leader of the opposition has referred to and the information concerning these points will be brought down with pleasure. My hon. friend is mistaken in one point, at any rate, when



99G
he says that $10,000 have been spent at Clarke's Harbour. That is a large fishing place. I undersand that the fishing industry in 1900 was worth in the vicinity of $450,000. We have spent to improve the harbour in that place the very moderate amount of $0,788, certainly there can be no great waste of public money there. As to that famous Black Point work, my officers do not know anything about it, it must be some other name, as it is certainly not in the estimates. But we will find it somewhere. Let me remind my hon. friend that the coast of Nova Scotia is, so to speak, a fishing coast. I have taken a deep interest in that coast, because I have been around it and have seen the fishermen at their arduous and interesting work. I say it is the duty of any government to take good care of those fishermen, they are one of the most important elements of the country. I invite my hon. friend not to listen to the jealous complaints of people who may not always be pleased with the public works that are being done. I know well how these complaints arise. Suppose you have in the estimates $2,000 for a harbour at Black Point. Well, there are people who live in the eastern portion of Black Point and others who live in the western portion. The eastern people would like to have the work there, and the western people would like to have it on their end, and the consequence is that somebody must be disappointed and displeased. I am free to admit that the works carried on in the maritime provinces are of a most difficult nature. We are working on the Atlantic ocean where the waves are very powerful, more powerful than any minister that I know. Works that are designed with the greatest care are destroyed. It may happen that one of these works has been damaged ; it happens every day. I can assure my hon. friend that my staff of engineers in Nova Scotia is one of the best in my employ. Mr. Dodwell is a good, careful man, a capable, painstaking engineer. He has under him as one of the staff, Mr. Locke, who is also a very careful and capable man. While he may have made mistakes, it has not come to my knowledge that he has made any. Any how, I will be glad to bring down any information asked by my hon. friend. My hon. friend is perfectly within his rights in asking for that information, and my officers have taken note of every place in regard to which he wishes to be informed.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The leader of the opposition is entitled to every possible information, though it may be a question whether this is the proper form of getting it, when it refers to works that are not under consideration, and for which no appropriation is asked. But we will not stand on that. I do not agree with my hon. friend that it is of no consequence who writes a letter. He says it is of no consequence who writes this letter, that it is only Hon. Mr. TARTE.
the statements with which we have to do. Well, testimony of every kind is to be considered with some regard to the person who testifies, and if the hon. gentleman brings forward statements here that works have been mismanaged and constructed where they have no value, works some of which are washed away by the first storm, it is of immense importance to know who makes this statement if we are asked to pass judgment upon it before we get any information. My hon. friend properly says he has no knowledge, and therefore he makes no statement on his own responsibility, and he does not give us any information. I say that until the information is obtained, until somebody is in a position to make a statement, it is not fair for my hon. friend to pass judgment on this matter and to say that a wrong has been done. He wants to know among other things whether some of the works have been washed away. I have no doubt it may be found that some parts of these works have been washed away. It happens that upon the Atlantic coast every great storm does some damage to our public works. I am constantly receiving letters from my constituents telling me that a certain work is damaged by the storm, and they hope repairs will be made. Does that prove that the work is useless, or that the engineer was incapable ? Nothing of the sort. I remember one case in the city of Halifax where a structure built by the late government was washed away because they failed to keep trains on it to steady it; an expensive bridge across the narrows was washed away in the storm. In every great storm we have on the Atlantic coast some damage is done to some public work. But the fact that damage has been done does not prove that the work was useless. It doest not even prove that the engineer failed in his duty in constructing the work.


Robert Laird Borden: The Minister of Public Works suggested that I should have consideration for fishermen on the coast. It is because I have consideration for these fishermen, and regard for them, that I do not want to see public money upon that coast expended in such a manner that it is of no use to them. These men along the coast can only expect a certain amount of public money to be expended for their relief, and if the large sums of money which are voted for that purpose are expended in such a way as to be of no use to them, the fishermen are the very persons who have a right to complain.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If they do complain. Let us know who complains.
Mi-. BORDEN (Halifax). Therefore, I submit we are entitled for that reason to have the exact information which I have asked for from the Minister of Public Works. As to what my hon. friend the Minister of Fin' ance has said with regard to quoting names,



[Stage Direction]
I still adhere to the opinion that if the information is given to me by a person in *whose credibility I have a right to rely, that entirely justifies me in giving it to my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works, when the proper item is up for discussion, and to ask for information as to whether the statement made to me is correct. That is all I have done to-day.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I may add that we have received no complaint from those Black Point people. We will find where that place is.


Robert Laird Borden: It is said to be near Lockeport.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The only complaint I have heard with reference to public works done in that region, was in the case of one piece of work, though I cannot exactly mention the locality. But I remember in one case where work was done on a sandy beach, and it did not stand a storm that came along. But no one said it could have been done in a different way. It was a small expenditure, a few hundred dollars. With that exception I never heard a complaint of that character in the whole two counties during the five or six years I have represented them.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I move that that item be changed to read as follows : ' Little Harbour breakwater, opposite Arnold's Point.'


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Borden) says it is near Lockeport. I think he is mistaken. This is a place between Shelburne and Lockeport, a fishing settlement of thirty or forty families. The engineer has found it more correct to say opposite Arnold's Point.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Arnold's Point is situated on the south-east extremity of Black Point, about 8 miles to the east of Brockport.
Item as amended, agreed to.
Boularderie Centre-wharf, $2,500.


Robert Laird Borden: How much will this cost ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WOhivS. The amount of the contract is $4,850.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the necessity for this expenditure ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It Fas been asked for by the people of the county of Victoria in the fishing interests. Boularderie is in Victoria county, on the northern side of Boularderie Island, about 8 miles west of the Atlantic and 10 miles to the east of the entrance of Little Bras d'Or lake.


Robert Laird Borden: What will be the total expenditure ?
32i


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: $4,850. It is under contract now.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the hon. member for Victoria (Hon. Mr. Ross) has some personal knowledge in regard to this. It does not seem a sufficient reason that the people simply petition for it. If there is any commercial reason on account of which this wharf should be built we would like to have it.
Hori. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) That work is under contract, and will be finished about the end of June. There is a steamer running up and down tri-weekly through the Bras d'Or lakes, and this is a central place to bring the produce of the people to be shipped by the steamer to the markets in Sydney. This wharf is, therefore, for the accommodation of the farming community.


Robert Laird Borden: On Boularderie Island ?
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) In the central part of Boularderie Island.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work was applied for in 1899 by Mr. Murray, the Prime Minister of Nova Scotia, and a petition was received numerously signed representing that there were pretty large commercial interests at stake. The government authorized me to go on with the work last year. The vote I am applying for this year is only to supplement the vote made by parliament formerly.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: Have you a report from any of the officers of your department as to the necessity of the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, before going on with work of this kind, we always have a survey made.


John Graham Haggart: Not a survey, but a report as to the cost of the work, or a report as to whether the work is necessary or not.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is a question of policy. The question of necessity is not a question to be decided upon by any public officer. The government are responsible as to the policy of carrying out public works. As to the cost we have in every case a survey made and a report.


Mr. KAULBACH.: I would like to ask the hon. minister whether this wharf Is completed ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORivS. The work is not completed yet.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: And there is no revenue from it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It will be completed June 30th.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Is it intended that tolls shall be collected from the parties who are using the wharf ?


The MINISTER OP PUBLIC WORKS.: As soon as the wharf is .completed I transfer it to the Department of Marine and Fisheries and then the law is applied.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I know of a number of works that are not giving- any revenue at all to the country, and I merely asked the question in order that I might ascertain as to whether a work of this kind, which appears to be important, will give a revenue to the country or not.	*
Burlington-wharf, $3,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the explanation as to this vote ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Burlington, Hants county is, according to the note which I have placed in my hand, a prosperous farming settlement of 500 people, situated on the River Avon, about half way between Windsor on the south and Summerville on the north. That work was authorized to go on last year. I am asking this year for a revote of $2,000 and a new vote of $1,500 to complete the work. There have been petitions, of course, asking for this vote.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. minister not have any system or principle to go upon in building these wharfs ? I can name him twenty-five places in my own county where they would he very glad to have a wharf built, if there was any money available for the purpose, but I do not know that I would like to press, myself, for this expenditure in these places, because it might not perhaps be in the public interest that the money should be so expended. Is there any principle or system upon which the hon. gentleman goes in making these appropriations and building these wharfs ? Does he build a wharf at any place where a majority of the people send in a petition asking that a wharf shall be built ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Robert Laird Borden: Then what is the principle upon which he does go 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: A Minister of Public Works receives a great many petitions and if he were willing to grant every one of them, he would have a great deal more trouble than he has now in putting his estimates through. But, my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax), when he has been a minister-it will come some of these days-will know all about it.


Robert Laird Borden: I am anxious to know all about it now.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am just going on to say that to him .also. We receive petitions, bundles of them, and they are discussed before council. In every government the different provinces are represented by ministers, men who have the


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: confidence of the people for the time being. The works that are deemed worthy of being granted are granted ; that is. all. We discuss the position, we have the information and I supply reports. My duty is to supply reports on surveys, and so on. When I have supplied all the information to my colleagues as to the cost of different public works we grant those works that seem to be the most meritorious. It is a good principle. I do not see what else we could do.


Robert Laird Borden: A very broad and general principle.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, we are men of broad principle. I do not deny that at all.


John Graham Haggart: Perhaps the hon. minister might do better by giving the reason that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) lias given. It is for the purpose of remedying injustices which have been perpetrated cn these constituencies by former governments.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have done that at times, and at other times, we have simply administered justice.
Cbeticamp Point-wharf, $11,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That work is going to be given by contract and it is a very important work.
Cow Bay (Port Mori-in)-Repairs to breakwater, $10,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total amount expended upon that work. It must be very large.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: $221,000 has been spent in the past on that breakwater. Of course it was mostly expended by the former government. When we took office this work was destroyed to a large extent and we are rebuilding it. I am glad to say that there Is a revival of the coal industry there and we are carrying on this work to help the trade at that port.


John Graham Haggart: What is the volurpe of trade carried on there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There was a coal mine there which was closed and it is being opened up again by a powerful company. When I was there every house was closed up, but I am glad to say that there is a large trade in view now.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: What amount, is it expected, will be required to complete the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It depends on the part of the work we will rebuild, and on the trade that will develop. This year we will not spend of course

more than we are asking for. I have visited the work myself and it can be attended to day by day.


Mr. KENDALL.: This breakwater is being built in order to afford necessary protection to the colliery works, and it will certainly require an expenditure of from $50,000 to $75,000 to finish it.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the new company ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: It is an English company, the Newcastle Coal Company.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: How much does the coal company contribute to the construction of this work. We are told that it is for their benefit and I think they should contribute a large proportion of the cost.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) The breakwater belongs to the government.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It would be the first time companies would be asked to build wharfs.


William Findlay Maclean: We build our own wharfs in the west.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Does the hon. gentleman say that they build all their own breakwaters in Ontario?


William Findlay Maclean: The minister spoke of Wharfs, not breakwaters.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, we will come to the Ontario items soon, and you will see some large sums voted for that province.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I may say that this breakwater in Port Morien affords the only place of shelter for vessels all the way from Louisburg to Sydney, a distance of fifty-miles, and there is a very large coasting trade in that locality.
Drumhead Breakwater, $2,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Where is Drumhead ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Drumhead is in the thriving county of Guysborougli so ably represented by my Ron. friend (Mr. Fraser).


John Graham Haggart: What will be the whole expenditure ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is estimated at $7,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the particular purpose of it ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is to help the fishermen in their trade. These fishermen are carrying out a very useful and very difficult trade. I did not luiow much about that trade until I went there, and when I saw twenty boats in a storm not having a harbour, I thought that a few thousand dollars from the government was well invested in protecting the lives and the property and the trade of these men.
Friar's Head boat harbour, $600.


Robert Laird Borden: Where is Friar's Head ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In Inverness. The total cost is estimated at $2,500.


Robert Laird Borden: What do you mean by boat harbour ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is just precisely a boat harbour to protect the boats of the fishermen.


Mr. MCLENNAN (Inverness).: I might explain something with regard to this locality. This is a small harbour formed by a long ledge of rock jutting out in the sea, and at a certain angle with the coast, there is a gap in this ledge which lets the action of the sea in on this small harbour. It is to fill in this gap with cement and stone that this small sum of money is required and the work is being carried on successfully.
Herring Cove Breakwater, $1,500.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Where is Herring Cove ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is in the county of Halifax, represented by the hon. leader of the opposition and by another gentleman.


Robert Laird Borden: I am glad that we have reached Halifax county at last.
Iona wharf, $6,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the commercial purpose to be served by this work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The contract price is $7,840, and the contract is expected to expire on the 30th of June, 1902.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there a steamer service ?
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) Yes. When the draw on the Grand Narrows cannot be opened, this work is required so that the mails can be conveyed daily. At present the steamer has sometimes to return to Baddeck, because it is impossible to open the draw bridge.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Harbours and rivers, Nova Scotia-Larry's river-breakwater, $2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In all these items there is evidence of a practice which has grown

up of voting a sum of money year after year without it being spent. I have said before, and I repeat, that I do not think it is a proper practice to continue voting money without a serious intention of spending it. If it is needed and we vote it, it ought to be spent. If it is not needed, this House should not be called on to vote it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: On several occasions votes have been placed in the estimates without the department having full information as to the cost of the work to be carried out; and I must say that that is so in this case.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why should it be so ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is a little difficult to say why, to be frank. Petitions are put in asking for works, and then a certain amount is placed in the estimates. Any man who has passed through the Department of Public Works knows that we have so many works that it is quite impossible to have surveys in every case, and I do not like to start a work without having full information with regard to it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister's explanation is the very strongest argument for my contention. This House should not be asked to vote money, nor should the government put an item in the estimates unless it is done upon intelligent grounds, that is, with a comprehensive knowledge of the locality and its needs, and what expenditure is requisite to give the people the convenience or the accommodation they require. That should always be available before the government asks the House to vote money. Another feature of the case which I have in view is this, that it seems to be too much the custom of the government to put items in the estimates for works in places where no work has been done, and for no better reason, so far as we can learn, than the fact that an application has been made by the member or by the people in the locality ; and then the minister states as a reason why the money is not spent, that he has not adequate knowledge of the locality to justify the expenditure, and he is withholding it until sufficient knowledge is obtained by means of preliminary surveys. I maintain that these preliminary surveys should be made before the money is voted, and then the minister could give the House the information which would justify the voting of the money. When that information is not available, it is a bad practice to put the items in the estimates year after year, because they are too often used as corrupting agencies in the hands of the government when elections are being carried on. I do not apprehend there is any likelihood of that taking place in this case : but when we see the large number of items of this kind that come down year after year, we are reminded of what use has been made of them in the past, and may be made of them in the future.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 


Mr. FRASER.: A word of explanation may be necessary. The engineer went down to this place last year and made certain investigations. Last fall there came a very heavy storm, and the engineer has not been able to make the additional survey that may be necessary ; but I saw him before I left home, and he said that by the spring that investigation might be made. The people are in very great need, and when this investigation is made, it may be necessary to spend the money.
Lingan, N.S.

Beach protection, $600.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is to complete the work.
Little Bras D'Or. N.S.-wharf, $2,500.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is under contract.
Livingstone's Cove, N.S.-to complete wharf,


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Antigonish and under contract.
Lower Cove, N.S.-breakwater, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Cumberland county, on the Bay of Fundy side.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the object of the breakwater ?


Mr. LOGAN.: The Atlantic Stone company is developing a big quarry there, and this breakwater is intended to protect the schooners while loading stone.
Minudie, N.S.-wharf, $3,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Cumberland county.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the necessity of a wharf here ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: To provide the accommodation required by a large population engaged in farming and fishing. They have to drive five miles to market, and this is intended to shorten the distance.


Robert Laird Borden: They will carry their farm produce by water ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Certainly, there are boats and a ferry.
Neil's Harbour-breakwater, $14,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is in Victoria county and under contract.
New Harbour breakwater-repairs, protection slopes, &c., $6,000.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Last year there was an expenditure of $17,470 on this breakwater, according to the Public Works Report, and the government is now asking for $6,000 more. Two years ago, so unimportant was

this harbour that its location was entirely unknown, either to the Minister of Public Works or the hon. member representing the county, and it seems to me very strange that such a large amount should be expended on a place entirely unknown to those who live in that section of the country 1 think 1 am not mistaken when I say that up to.the 30th June last there was expended, either on the harbour or the breakwater, $17,470. That seems a lot of money to spend at a place which was entirely unknown two years ago, or so little known that we could not get any information as to what part of the country it was in.


Duncan Cameron Fraser: I do not believe that the hon. gentleman would wilfully state what is not correct, namely, that the member representing the county did not know where that breakwater was.


David Henderson: He could not tell us and he was in his place.


Duncan Cameron Fraser: If the hon. gentleman will turn to the ' Hansard,' he will find that when the discussion began I was not in, but that I came in afterwards and explained where the place was. When the vote was first asked for, there was not in the department as much information as I have, but that is' easily explained. It was a place where the fishermen had to go ten miles on the one side and seveii on the other, with their boats, before they could find shelter if there was a storm, and the work would not have cost so much only for a violent storm which interfered with the top part- the most severe storm, with one exception we have had in Nova Scotia within my recollection. This work has been of great benefit to the fishermen, not only at New Harbour, but on both sides, and when completed will enable them to carry on their fishing industry as they never could do it before. As to the knowledge of the locality, one can very well understand that there might not be much information in the department about a fishing village on the coast of Nova Scotia. But the place is well known in our part of the county as one of the best sections in the county.


David Henderson: I am much obliged to the hon. gentleman for his correction, but I think that perhaps my recollection of the matter is quite as clear as his, and I think it will be in the recollection of the Minister of Public Works that when I drew his attention to this harbour a year ago, the minister rose in his place and exclaimed : We have found it. Now, if it had not been lost, there would have been no occasion for the minister to inform us that he had found it. He well remembered the difficulty he had in trying to locate the harbour the previous year and was glad to announce that he had succeeded in finding it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We had some little doubt about this place
a couple of years ago. I must admit that it was difficult for us that night to put our finger on the very point where New Harbour was located. The coast of Nova Scotia is vei'y wide and long and my colleague aud myself had some trouble before we could lay our finger on that spot, but we found it easily after the money was voted and spent.
Pxaker's Cove, N.S.-extension of pier, $4,700. The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. This is in Annapolis county.


Robert Laird Borden: Why do you want the pier extended ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Because the people complained that they had not sufficient accommodation and insisted on having more.


Robert Laird Borden: What part of the county is it in ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is in the Bay of Fundy.


Andrew B. Ingram: In the items respecting different breakwaters I find a charge for the wages of a ' conductor ' and immediately following for a ' foreman.' What are the duties of a conductor engaged on these woi'ks ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Generally we have only one man employed, except where the work is large or there are two kinds of work calling for the services of different men. In some cases the foreman must remain to actually supervise the work, while it was necessary to have another man outside to buy the material. Whether they are called conductors or foremen makes no difference.


Andrew B. Ingram: The men who are entered as conductors appeared to have received larger wages than the foremen. Here are conductors whose wages are $3.50 or $2.50 a day, while the foremen are paid $2.50 a day.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: To what works does the hon. member (Mr. Ingram) refer ?


Andrew B. Ingram: Porter's lake, Nova Scotia, dredging and breakwater, referred to at page V-160 of the Auditor General's Report.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief engineer explains to me that on that work there was dabbing to be cni'ried on and also hand dredging-two different works altogether. That explains the employment of two men.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Are wages paid to these foremen fixed by the fair wages officer ?
The MiNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. I No.


Edward Frederick Clarke: He does not go down that far ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, he has been In that region.


Edward Frederick Clarke: But he does not fix the wages scale ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: On small works that has not been done yet. But there would be no objection.
Harbours and rivers-Nova Scotia-Port George -breakwater, $2,300.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I observe quite a number of estimates for different counties in Nova Scotia. Annapolis appears not to have been overlooked. Neither have Richmond, Guysboro, Victoria, Inverness, and other counties. The two counties west and adjoining Lunenburg, not excepted, or in other words all are included on the roll for benefits. But lam afraid that the Minister of Public Works has forgotten the most important part of the entire coast. He says he is very desirous of forwarding the interests of the fishermen. I wish to inform him that there is a county west of Halifax that is greatly in need of protection ; and, as he is a protectionist in other counties I hope he will be a protectionist in this one also. I refer to the county I have the honour to represent, Lunenburg. I wish my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tarte) to be informed on this subject, and I will take the trouble to give him any information possible. I may tell him that there is a long stretch of coast in St. Margaret's Bay where, for twelve or fifteen miles, there is almost a continuous town, house almost against house for that entire distance, with an immense population. I have been asking for a number of years for a breakwater for Mill Cove, St. Margaret's Bay. The property of the fishermen there is in jeopardy every time there is a storm. They have to fish in large boats ; smaller boats would not do because they are exposed to the open ocean. The breakwater would not only afford protection to the fishermen and their product's, but it would also be a protection to larger boats coming there for a harbour of safety. I referred this afternoon to Cow Bay. As that is a place that has a large coal interest, and as that interest would be served very considerably, it should contribute to a structure of the kind that was referred to this afternoon. True, it is a harbour of safety for fishermen as well, that is, for fishing vessels. But there are very few that frequent that harbour or use that breakwater or that public wharf, as it may be called, except for the shipment of coal. For that reason, I think it is well worthy the government to ascertain for themselves whether it would not be advisable to call upon the coal interests there or those who have capital in the mines to contribute to that public work. Or, I would not object if the government went further and Hon. Mr. TARTE.
allowed every vessel going there and getting a cargo of coal to contribute to the revenue by the collection of a certain fee as a port charge. In that way, the exchequer would not be called upon for a very large amount of money. At all events, the fees would pay for keeping up the repairs and other incidental charges that might be occasioned, and thereby relieve the exchequer considerably of a large expenditure. Now, I would ask the minister if he will not take into consideration this important county of Luneu-burg and contribute from the exchequer an amount sufficient to put a breakwater at Mill Cove. It is a structure that is muen needed. If the hon. gentleman will make inquiries he will find that there is no structure on the coast from Cape North to tape Sable that is more necessary than this that I refer to. As I have said, it is not only necessary to the safety of the poor fishermen and their property, but also to the safety of vessels going into that bay e.'hen, from stress of weather they are preveutcl from going farther.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think the department nas received any petition from Mill Cove so far. I think it is the first time my attention has been drawn to the matter. But I will look into it.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Does the hon. minister mean to say that I never made a request for this work to the Department of Public Works ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not remember having received any petition.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Petition. They have too much confidence in me to think of sending in a petition.


Mr. TOLMIE.: And you forgot.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The hon. minister forgets that I am the medium through which all these deals should be made, and it was made by me of his department on repeated occasions.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend is not a bad medium, at the same time, if his constituents feel as keenly as he seems to do about it, I would advise him to get them to send a petition, and it will be carefully considered.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: If the minister will look through the archives of his department he will see a very long petition signed by nearly every fisherman of the place.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: When was that petition signed ?


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I would not like to say.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would like to know.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I would not like to name the particular time I made the appeals of his department.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I think it was about ten years ago. I would like to know just now when it was sent.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: According to the hon. gentleman's own words, there is all the more need for his work being performed now. During the time I represented the county when the other government was in power, I got a very fair proportiou of benefits for that country. But this proposed ' Mill Cove ' breakwater is greatly needed, and was promised to me before the old government went out of power. Now, I think those works should be carried on according to a certain principle, and I would not like to be too severe upon the hon. gentleman and say that he is making an exception against me in this particular instance, but I will express the hope the hon. gentleman will recognize my appeal in the early future and grant my request.
Washabuck Centre-wharf, $5,500.


John William Bell: As this is the last item under the head of harbours and rivers, I would like to call the attention of the minister to the necessity for some work on the wharfs at Pictou island, in Pictou county. During last session I called the attention of the minister to this matter on two occasions, and I understood from him at that time that the matter had been also brought to his attention by other persons. During the recess I wrote him twice, the last time in the fall, and he then promised me that out of the general vote for the lower provinces the necessary work would be done, and that he would send down an engineer and examine it. As I am informed, the wharfs there, which have cost some thousands of dollars, are in such a position that a severe storm would completely destroy them, which would involve an expenditure by the department over which the hon. gentleman presides of some thousands of dollars to replace them, as they must be provided. The wharf in question is situated on an island with a population of about 100 people, [DOT] who have no other means of communication with the mainland than by their boats, and they must have a wharf in order to enable them to land. I would like the minister to make a note of this matter, and take care to preserve the works from destruction.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I may say that I have authorized an expenditure, if my officers remember right, of .$800 for the work to which my hon. friend refers. Mr. Millidge, our engineer, has been authorized to go on with that work. The chief engineer informs me that instructions have been issued to him to procure all the materials that are required,
and the work will be done before the 1st of July.
P. B. I.-harbours and rivers-Canoe Cove, breakwater, $1,500.


Albert Edward Kemp: Last session when the estimates were under consideration for Prince Edward Island, the matter was brought to the attention of the House concerning a tax levied by Prince Edward Island on persons from other provinces who desired to do business there. The matter was very earnestly considered, and I have only to refer to the remarks which fell from some hon. members opposite to show the importance they attached to it. The member for Victoria said :


William Ross: I entirely endorse the remarks of the last speaker (Mr. Kemp). I believe that there should be no restriction of any kind on trade between one part of the Dominion and another. We who profess to lean1 towards free trade ought to feel ashamed that there should be a province in the Dominion which would levy a mean tax of this kind. It is not to the credit of Prince Edward Island, that dear little island, that such a tax should exist. I believe that if a proper appeal were made to the proper legislature, they would take steps to have it repealed, because it is a tax that should never have existed and the sooner it is wiped out of existence the better.
The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Fraser) said :
Hon. members have spoken of the tax on commercial travellers in Prince Edward Island. I am as much opposed to that tax as any hon. gentleman present. I think it is about as small a piece of legislation as one can imagine, and I am ashamed that a province, which lies next to my own, should pass such a measure. Perhaps the fact that the province of Prince Edward Island did not get what it was entitled to from this parliament created the necessity for this legislation', but that is the only defence that can be set up for it.
Then the Minister of Marine and Fisheries said :
I am not in a position to pronounce any judgment now one way or the other, but the matter is engaging the close attention1 of the hon. Minister of Justice.
Now I understand that this tax, although illegal and unconstitutional, still exists, though it is within the power of this government to render it ineffective. Suppose the province of Ontario should undertake to enforce a tax of that kind upon those of other provinces, which, according to the amount of business to be done would amount to about $500, it would be almost impossible to enforce it without a regiment of soldiers. Yet this illegal tax has been allowed to exist, the government have not taken the necessary steps to cancel it. It is looked upon by commercial bodies throughout this country as a very obnoxious tax, and I would like to have the views of the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) upon it.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I am not asked, I suppose, to give my views as

to the legislation in question, because I have not had occasion to look into it either at the time the legislation was passed or recently. All I can say about it is that in the ordinary course this legislation, after it was passed, came under the notice of the Governor in Council, and it was examined, as is customary, by officials of the Department of Justice and a report was made by the minister. After that report, the Council thought fit to allow the law to go into operation. But I think my hon. friend should bear in mind that while the law has been allowed to go into operation, it is still open to those interested to bring the matter before the courts. Of course, if the law is ultra vires, the powers of the provincial legislature has not gained anything by the lapse of a year in force or in strength and if the law is ultra vires the courts will pronounce upon that point and declare it to be so.
Mr. IvEMP. I may say to the hon. Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) that the right hon. Prime Minister expressed himself thus in regard to bringing this before the courts :
I will tell my hon. friend thi3 contract is between the province of Prince Edward Island and the Dominion, and we can certainly interpret the contract ourselves and make an agreement upon it. There is no third party concerned. If there were a third party whose interests were affected we could not do it and we would have to go to the courts.


Mr. FARQUHARSON.: Mr. Chairman, I know something of the Act referred to, and while perhaps it is not as popular as some other Acts, the legislature of Prince Edward Island thought proper to pass it some years ago. No tax is popular. They have collected that tax for a great many years. I take it that it must be constitutional of else some of the commercial men who are proclaiming against it from time to time would have wiped it out of existence long ago. However, it does not seriously affect the commercial men coming to Charlottetown or to other points in Prince Edward Island. I notice that we have about four hundred a year coming over there and paying in about $20 each, or about $8,000 in all. It may be we should raise the money in some other way, but we have not thought proper to do so, and the_ tax still remains, and so far as I can see,' is likely to remain. I do not know that I can say anything further. The hon. Minister of Justice has spoken and it is open to those who object to say whether or not it is unconstitutional, and if it be so to have it wiped off the statute-book later on.


Mr. HACKETT.: Mr. Chairman, I desire to say in connection with this matter, that I think the imposition of this tax on commercial travellers is a disgrace to the province of Prince Edward Island. We desire Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.
to trade with the other provinces. We were satisfied when we entered into confederation that we could sell our products in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Quebec or Ontario, without having any tax imposed upon us, and I therefore say that it is extremely wrong that because these commercial travellers come down from the upper provinces to sell their goods in Prince Edward Island they should be taxed for the purpose of raising a revenue for that province. I say it is entirely wrong and from the beginning, although the hon. gentleman (Mr. Farqu-liarson) who has just spoken, is responsible in a large degree for the imposition of this tax, I have believed that it was unconstitutional. I do not think we can place a bar between provinces, one trading with the other. I think it is wrong and unconstitutional and I hope that the hon. Minister of Justice will, in the decision he is about to bring down, show that this tax on commercial travellers is an unconstitutional and wrong tax.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I think the statement that the hon. member for East Toronto (Mr. Kemp) so emphatically made that this Act is illegal is probably too strong. The propriety of the Act is one tiling, its legality is another thing, and this is just one of those questions upon which prominent lawyers have entertained differences of opinion. Whether the tax comes within the section of the British North America Act respecting taxation, or whether it is an interference with trade and commerce, is just one of those questions on which you might get a very distinguished lawyer from Toronto or Montreal to give you an opinion on either side, and one would have just as much chance of being right as the other. I am not justifying the tax upon its merits, but very distinguished members of the legal profession have held that the Act is entirely legal. That will ultimately have to be determined by the courts. I merely state that there are these two divergent opinions in regard to it.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the Justice Department here given any opinion ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Act has been allowed to go into operation. It has been deemed inexpedient to disallow it. Similar Acts I think have been in force in other provinces.


Edward Hackett: Is the work going on at Canoe Cove ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, it is going on now, and it will be completed in a short time. The vote for which we are now asking will complete the work.


Edward Hackett: Is it being done by contract or day labour ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Tenders were asked and we received only

one, but it was so high that we could not j accept it and we went on by day labour, doing the work at a much cheaper rate. The work will be completed out of the vote that we are applying for, now.


Mr. HACK  ETT@: In how many papers did the lion. Minister of Public Works publish an advertisement calling for tenders ?


The MINISTER. OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot say offhand, but we advertised in the usual way, in the papers we usually advertise in in the maritime provinces. I will give my hon. friend later on, if he wishes it, the names of the papers.


Edward Hackett: It is a most unusual thing in the province of Prince Edward Island, when you call for tenders for a public work, that you can only receive one tender, and I think that the hon. minister ought to be able to state how many papers he placed the advertisement in and during what time the notice was inserted in these papers. I see by looking in the Auditor General's Report that it cost $100 for this advertising, and I am confident that if the hon. gentleman had advertised in Prince Edward Island and made it known that this work was in contemplation, he would have received more than one tender. Under these circumstances the hon. gentleman ought to state all the facts in connection with this advertising.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have no doubt that we advertised in the usual way.


Donald Farquharson: I can justify the hon. Minister of Public Works in regard to the Canoe Cove Breakwater. He advertised twice and I saw the only tender that came in. It was unreasonably high. The work is being done by day's labour, and it is being done with great care. I think the work is necessary and that later on it will prove to be useful. Iam sorry that the hon. member for Prince (Mr. Hackett) is rather opposed to it.


Edward Hackett: I fully agree with the last suggestion in connection with the necessity of the work. It is a very necessary work. I know the locality very well, and 1 know the work is a very necessary one, but what I complain of is that the contractors of Prince Edward Island did not have a fair opportunity of tendering for this work. When the election was pending and when the hon. gentleman who formerly represented West Queen's, was about to be elevated to the Supreme Court bench, it was known that a vacancy would occur and the hon. gentleman who now represents that riding (Mr. Farquharson) has been using that work for the purpose of gaining support and carrying his election.
Cascumpec Harbour-closing opening through beach, $2,000.


Edward Hackett: What progress has been made in regard to this work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This work is located in the riding of my hon. friend (Mr. Hackett).


Duncan Cameron Fraser: That is throwing money away.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, no; only that the work, I am very much afraid, will involve a large expenditure of money. We have spent a pretty large amount of money there. The total expenditure to December last was $17,561.19. Now the total estimated cost of the proposed work is .$3,500. We want $1,500 more to complete the work. Instructions have been given to Mr. Egan to go on with the work, but as on some other occasions, he has not been able to do so. The work will be carried on in the ordinary way.


Edward Hackett: The minister has stated that $17,500 had been expended on Cascumpec harbour, but that is altogether apart from the present work. About three years ago, owing to freshets and high tides the sea broke through the sand hill separating Cascumpec bay from the gulf and allowed a great deal of water that should pass through the main channel to go through this inlet. It was necessary that the whole body of water should be concentrated on the main channel because the more water there is concentrated on a sand bar the better will become the channel. It was proposed three years ago in the estimates to take a vote to close up that inlet. That money has never been expended. At election time you will hear the Liberals standing on the platforms and saying that the government is spending a large sum of money for public works, but the people are humbugged, For three years this $2,000 have appeared in the estimates and not a dollar has been spent yet. Recently the Ottawa correspondent of the ' Charlottetown Patriot,' the government organ, telegraphed that $22,000 had been placed in the estimates for improving Cascumpec harbour. How is it that we have only $2,000 here now ? The Ottawa correspondent multiplied the vote by ten, and then added the $2,000 of the actual vote of last year, and so it was an easy thing for him to figure out the $22,000. What is the use of putting appropriations in the estimates unless you expend them. Do not endeavour to mislead the people like that. I trust that the minister will see that the $2,000 is now expended, and expended either under the supervision of a good foreman or let by open tender.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I find myself at times in very embarrassing positions. When I spend money my hon. friend (Mr. Hackett) reproaches me with spending too much, and when I do not spend money he is mad at me. I have always endeavoured to be prudent. When the vote was first placed in the estimates I admit that I had not all the information that was required, but I have the information now,

and I can assure my hon. friend that the money will be judiciously expended. Does he object to the expenditure of that money ?
Mr. HACIvETT. Not at all.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If ' not at all ' then let the vote pass. I want the vote to go through in order to spend the money in the hon. gentleman's county. I cannot be accused of being a partisan because I am spending the money in the county of my hon. friend (Mr. Ilackett) and he is not a strong partisan of ours. I am doing the right thing by him and I hopd he will do the right thing by me and not ask any more questions.
Mr. HACIvETT. I do not find fault with the minister for expending this money because it is very necessary, but what I do complain of is that it should be put in the estimates and not expended.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, this time it will be expended.


Edward Hackett: All right.
Creosote! timber for general repairs to wharfs piers and breakwaters, $2,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Where is this creosote timber prepared ; I do not think it can be procured in this country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am very sorry that we are obliged to import this timber. We have contemplated for some time establishing a creosoting plant, but we have not done so. We may have been wrong in not doing so, but I would like to have an expression of opinion of the House on the subject.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Robert Laird Borden: The reason I am making the inquiry is that there has been a resolution passed recently by the Halifax Board of Trade suggesting that some encouragement might be given to the establishment of a plant for that purpose in one of the maritime provinces. I have not had an opportunity to investigate the subject at all, and I do not know if it would be practicable, but' it is the opinion of some of these gentlemen who have considered the subject, that the government should see whether or not it would be in the interest of the country to give encouragement to such an establishment in Canada. Of course, I suppose it would depend very much on the cost of the plant which the minister says would be $35,000 or $40,000. These gentlemen seem to think they have facilities to do the work there, and it is a matter that should have the attention of the government. I know there is a great deal of this timber used in public works around the province of Hon. Mr. TARTE.
Nova Scotia. It is rendered necessary as I understand by the presence of worms in some of the harbours which destroy in a very few years timber that is not treated in this way ; whereas creosoted timber is impervious to the attacks of worms for a very considerable period. Could the hon. gentleman give us an idea of how much of this timber is used in the public works of Canada in the course of the year.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a great deal in what my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) says. The question has been discussed several times since I have been in office here. Timber of this kind to the value of about $70,000 is used in the Public Works Department. If we had a plant, more than timber would be used. For instance, creosoted railway ties last longer.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax. Is that quantity used by the Public Works Department alone ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: There is some used in the construction of piles for railway bridges and possibly there is some used in the other departments of the government.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: If the minister could tell us how much of this timber is used altogether in the public service of Canada, it might be useful information to those gentlemen who propose to engage in this business.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot sqy how much is used altogether. Speaking for myself, I think we should have an establishment of that kind. There is a large work at Cape Tormentine that has been destroyed because it has been built with timber that was not creosoted. It is a question of money again, but since the leader of the opposition has called my attention to the question, perhaps I will ask my colleagues to look more carefully into the matter when the supplementary estimates are discussed. It is a very important question.


Robert Laird Borden: What these gentlemen had apparently in mind was the establishment of some such plant by private enterprise. What the minister seems to have in mind is the establishment of a plant under a department of the government. The advantage of doing it by way of private enterprise of course would be that a supply in that case would be available for private operations throughout the country. I suppose that more or less of this timber is used outside of the requirements of the government.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not think so.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: There is a considerable quantity used.


Robert Laird Borden: I would suppose that people who construct wharfs aud works of that kind in the maritime provinces would require some of it. Perhaps the hon. gentleman from Cape Breton (Mr. Kendall would know as to this.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If such a plant be established by private enterprise I would make it my duty to buy in Canada, every piece of creosoted timber that we would want. I would only he too glad to do so.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear,
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) There is not a wharf or breakwater that has been built but that a large quantity of this timber is used. Perhaps the largest wharf in the Dominion is now being built at Sydney by the Nova Scotia Steel Company, and they have imported a whole steamer load of this timber, but it will not be sufficient for them. The only place that this pine can be prepared successfully in the Dominion of Canada, would be, I think, around Quebec, because I do not think that we have the quality and quantity of pine in Nova Scotia that would be sufficiently large for the requirements of timber prepared in this manner. I think the subject is well worthy of the consideration of the Minister of Public Works and the other members of the government as to whether we shall not prepare this timber in our own country.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) It would not only be used by the government but by other people who are building wharfs and other works in connection with shipping.
Souris, Knight's Point-strengthening of breakwater, &c., $20,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Under contract.
Summerside Harbour-breakwater, $35,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Under contract ; the work going on.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works what progress is being made with this breakwater. I understood that it was to be completed last year, and I further understand that the plans are not workable, and that in consequence the contractors are having a great deal of difficulty in the construction of the breakwater. I would like to know what is being done, and when the breakwater is likely to be completed ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The plans are all right aud workable. The
contractors, Messrs. McDonald & Moffat, of Sydney, have not, however, made the progress we hoped they would make. They *may be a little slow, but still I feel that they could carry on the work with more activity than they have displayed. We have notified them that they must go on with their work.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Have you any idea when this breakwater will be completed ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief engineer tells me that if the contractors apply the energy they should apply, the work can be completed in one year. Now, these gentlemen must go on with their work. If they do not do so, we might have to have recourse to urgency measures. We might have to take the work from them.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: 

EPHRAIM BELL.


[Stage Direction]
Committee.

[Stage Direction]
Secretary.
This document, I believe, was accompanied by a largely signed petition-some 800 signatures, including the names of some of the most influential men in Queen's and Prince counties. The petitioners state that as the Cape Traverse branch of the Prince Edward Island Railway runs through a populous country and serves a prosperous people, the purposes of the railway are to a great extent nullified by the fact that there are no terminal facilities. It is true, a wharf was built at Cape Traverse at considerable expense ; but unfortunately it was put at the wrong place, and for the last few years practically no work has been done on it, except for a week or so before the last election, and the work was stopped a day after the election. However, the best authorities there are of opinion that a suitable place for the construction of a wharf can be had near Cape Traverse, along by Carleton Point, and this petition asks that the minister place a sufficient sum in the supplementary estimates to guarantee this work going on. I think that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries understands that this is the most natural route for steamers in both winter and summer, because they have not the difficulties to overcome that are encountered in going to Georgetown. The distance across the channel to Cape Tormentine is only 8 miles ; but from the nature of the ice on the New Brunswick side, it is almost impossible for a steamer to land, especially in the condition in which the pier is now. The idea of the petitioners is that a suitable wharf should be built at Cape Traverse, for both summer and winter navigation and that a fery should be established there. A great Mr. LEFURGEY.
deal of produce has to be brought down the line to Charlottetown or Summerside to be shipped across, and if the facilities were provided which were contemplated when the Cape Traverse branch was built, there would be a vast improvement in the trade of that section. The minister has no doubt received and considered this memorial, and I would like to have some word from him as to what he intends to do about granting the prayer of this petition by placing a vote in the supplementary estimates.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman is asking me, if I understand him correctly, to place in the supplementary estimates an amount of money to provide accommodation at Cape Traverse, I remember receiving a petition to that effect. My hon. friend has spoken of elections. It is very seldom that we do not hear that word elections in connection with any work on Prince Edward Island. What are the facts ? Under the late administration there was about $275,000 spent at Cape Tormentine. That is a large amount of money. The work was built with improper materials, and with timber which was not creosoted. Twelve months after the work was completed it was destroyed. I suppose it was not an election work ; it was not a very good work, at any rate. At Cape Traverse there was another work built under the late regime. I do not recriminate ; I simply state the facts. There has been about $40,000 spent at Cape Traverse on a wharf which my hon. friend has just said was badly located. Now he wants me to put in the supplementary estimates an amount of money to provide accommodation elsewhere. I would like very much to have his views as to the location of the works in the maritime provinces.
Iam informed that the steamer ' Stanley ' has been trying to do the service during the whole winter of Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, but has not worked very well. This very work at Summerside, on which we have embarked, is intended to provide accommodation for that winter service. We are doing our best, and cannot experiment in two or three places at the same time. We cannot carry out experimental work right and left in that way. I would be very glad to do all I can for that interesting island, but we have to spend a pretty large amount on that winter service, and must know exactly where we are before incuring further expenditure.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Two wrongs do not make a right, and the fact that mistakes have been made-


Donald Farquharson: Hon. members perhaps do not quite understand how the island is situated with regard to this matter. We are separated from the Nova Scotia shore by about eight miles of water. On the Cape Tormentine side a large amount of

money lias been spent, and It will be necessary to spend more money to complete the work there. On the Cape Traverse side little or nothing has been done. There is no ferry at this crossing but railways on either side and at either terminus. To go to the capital by water from Pictou over the route now followed, or from Cape Tormeutine, is a distance of forty or forty-five miles, and the hon. minister will understand how willing we are to have that reduced to eight miles. Many people, especially tourists, do not want to cross so much water, as the crossing is very rough particularly in the fall, and we are anxious to have distance reduced. I am in sympathy with what the hon. member (Mr. Hackett) has said. I believe that in the near future our government must see its way Clear to place an amount in the estimates in order to provide for summer and winter ferry at that point. That is absolutely necessary, and when other provinces are receiving benefits which are denied our little province, we have a right to insist on that being done and to combine in forcing our claim on the government, no matter how we may differ in local matters. I am satisfied that in a few years there will be a ferry traversing that eight miles, and thus save the forty miles travel which at present has to be undertaken. Why should we go forty miles when we can shorten the distance to eight, and when there is railway accommodation on either side. We are asking for a wharf at Cape Traverse. Perhaps the hon. minister may not see his way clear to give it to us this session, but it will have to come in the near future no matter what government is in power.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am very thankful for the information given me and will give more attention than ever to this important question. If it be true, as I hope it is, that communication between the island and the mainland can be shortened to eight miles, there is no government which can refuse to undertake that work, but there must be some obstacle in the way or it would have been done long ago. However, we are in a century of progress, and I will give my best attention to the statements just made. I will have my officers go again into that important question, and if it can be done, I will pledge myself to do it.	.


Edward Hackett: I am very much pleased indeed to hear the statement of the hon. minister because I know that when he makes a promise of that kind he means to keep it. I believe It will not be very long before government works are constructed at Carleton Point, Prince county, for the purpose of maintaining winter and summer communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. I do not want to minimize what the hon. gentleman has done with regard to public works in the
island, but to impress upon him the necessity of completing the work he has begun.
We may disagree, and we may say things that are pretty sharp sometimes. But I want to say that when the hon. gentleman tells us that he will do a thing, he will do it. Yesterday, in the discussions in this House we had a gale blowing from the prairies of the North-west; this evening we have a breeze from the east, from the province of Prince Edward Island. I am pleased indeed to find that the hon. minister is paying so much attention to our remarks. We are a small province, but we claim that we are as intelligent and as bright as any people in the Dominion of Canada. We are only asking for our rights as guaranteed us by the terms of confederation. Now, you have two steamships running to keep up communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. They run at times for forty or fifty miles in floating ice. If the government will construct a pier at Carleton Point, it would make it possible to keep up that communication. I trust the hon. minister, if he can not see his way clear at the present time to construct this pier, will keep it in view as his ultimate object. By this means the service will be kept up from Cape Tormentine to Cape Traverse, running to Carleton Point, winter and summer. In that way, you will solve the problem of winter communication and satisfy the people of Prince Edward Island. I am glad that the hon. member for West Queen's (Mr. Farquharson) has, in almost his maiden effort, in this House raised his voice in favour of this route. We call upon him to continue to support us in this matter.
Public Works-chargeable to income-harbours and rivers-New Brunswick-Bay du Vin- to complete reconstruction of wharf, $4,000.


Mr. FOWLER.: Has the contract for this work been let ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, the contract was let, on the 27th of May, 1901, to Mr. Charles Ransborough.


George William Fowler: I find certain charges respecting this work noted at page V-172 of the Auditor General's Report. Have these charges been incurred since the contract was given ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief engineer informs me that certain repairs were done outside of the contract, and it may be to these that my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) refers.


George William Fowler: What is the amount of the contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The amount is $7,745.


Mr. GANONG.: Referring to page V-172, of the Auditor General's Report, I see that the last items referred in this Bay du

Vin work are $31.31 for the King's Printer and $140.81 for advertising, making a total of $178.15. What do these two items of King's Printer and advertising refer to ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I understand that they refer to the printing and advertising the specifications.
Black Brook (Logieville)-wharf, $1,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is under contract.
Cape Tormentine-repairs to breakwater, &c., $15,000.


Uriah Wilson: There should be some explanation of so large an item as this.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have already said-perhaps my hon. friend was not in the House-that this work has cost a large amount of money. Unfortunately, material was used in the construction of this wharf, years ago, that should not have been used. Creosoted timber was not employed as it should have been. Now, we have to rebuild the work using rip rap to keep it from falling to pieces. We seek in this way to save a large work which has cost a great deal of money and which we hope will be used as one of the piers in connection with the winter service between New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.


Uriah Wilson: Could not the hon. gentleman give us some idea what portion of this vote is for material and what portion is for labour 7 There should be some ex-jdanation beyond the mere statement the hon. minister has given.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Superintendence will cost about $1,500. The balance will be spent in buying material. We are simply buying big stone and rip-raping the whole work.


Edward Hackett: I am not going to criticise this vote, as I know how necessary the work proposed is. But I would like to call the attention of the hon. minister to the need for dredging along the outside of the pier in order that the winter boats may come up alongside the wharf. Is it the hon. minister's intention to do that work also ?
The .^xNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. I have tried in vain to get a dredge for this and other works. Unfortunately, in the maritime provinces, we are short of dredges. We should have some dredging done there in order to allow the steamer to come alongside the pier. I understand every word the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) has said.
Caraquet-wharf, $20,000.	[DOT]


George William Fowler: We would like some explanation of this.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That work is practically under contract now.


Gilbert White Ganong: We have asked for tenders, and have accepted the tender of Simmons & Burpee as the lowest. That work is of great importance. I may say that since it became known that we were going to do this work at that point, several lumber industries have been established there.


George William Fowler: Is the land on which this wharf is to be erected the property of the government or of private individuals ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The engineer informs me we have not bought any land yet, but the work is on land belonging to the government.


George William Fowler: Who owns the land at the inland end of the wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am thankful for the suggestion of my hon. friend. I have given most positive instructions to all my officers not to begin any work without having made arrangements with the owners of the land. There is an understanding about the land, but not in writing. I will say that before doing anything further I will see that we get a deed of the land, because we have trouble every time unless that is done. In this case, however, I do not think there is going to be any trouble.


George William Fowler: Is the site located yet ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, the work is located, but there will not be any trouble about the land, because the work is just on the shore.


George William Fowler: The minister says there have been some verbal negotiations going on; what is the price ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 understand the price is about $20 for the right of landing there. I suppose the insignificance of the price is the reason why a written deed has not been made.


George William Fowler: Perhaps the price will be raised now that the site is taken. [DOT]


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Before the contract is awarded I will see that the deed is in my hands. A tender has been accepted, but the contract has not been signed.


Gilbert White Ganong: Who is the owner of the land ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Mr. James Blackball.
Chance harbour-breakwater, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I move that that item be struck out.


George William Fowler: I notice in the Auditor General's Report that $190 have been expended on that for advertising. Why advertise if it was not intended to build ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have since found out that the work was too expensive to do this year.


George William Fowler: Then the $190 is lost.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not lost, because it has given us information that will be useful later on.


George William Fowler: Could not that same information have been obtained without the expense of advertising ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Perhaps so. But it is better to have that item struck out, that work would cost about $40,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Dipper harbour-breakwater, $3,250.
The MINISTER OF TUBLIC WORKS.: I move that that item be struck out.


Gilbert White Ganong: We find another advertising bill here for $224.44 in connection with this. In looking over these advertising accounts it seems to me that they run a little irregularly. The other night the Minister of Public Works said that he had advertised for building that breakwater down near Wilson's Beach. I am not surprised when I look over this list that he did not get any tenders. I regret that the Grit papers in our county were not better paid for advertising. I see in this Wilson's Beach matter, which will be a work costing from $25,000 to $35,000, he only paid $04.70 for advertising. Now, both these items are struck out after advertising for tenders. We also find some that run higher than that. It is evident the minister was not very anxious to have Wilson's Beach breakwater let by tender, or he would have put it in the hands of other newspapers so that it would have been more thoroughly advertised.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Grand© Anse-extension and repairs to breakwater, $9,000.
George William Fowler: There was a lot of expenditure in connection with Grande Anse last year. Is this the same breakwater ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is the same breakwater. This year we are only taking a revote to complete the work.	,


George William Fowler: But this work is evidently done by day's work.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Point Wolfe-breakwater, $2,000.
George William Fowler: Who has charge there ? Who located it ? As I understand it at Point Wolfe there has been considerable money expended and parties who live in the vicinity say that some of it has not been very well expended. They claim that the fault lies with the engineer in not knowing exactly what he was about. I suppose the 33
money is being expended under the direction of Mr. Shewen, who is the engineer of the department in that locality ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


George William Fowler: I should like to know whether the hon. minister has ascertained the views of the people in that neighbourhood who are well acquainted with the tides and the movements of the currents there and who know just where this breakwater should be located.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not now remember that we have received any complaints as to the manner in which the work has been carried out.
It was carried out under Mr. Shewen's supervision. I would be very glad to receive any information at the hands of my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) if he thinks something was done that should not have been done.


George William Fowler: There have been complaints as to the Point Wolfe and Alma expenditure, more particularly in regard to the Alma expenditure.
Richibucto-reconstruction of north pier and groynes, &c., $20,300.


George William Fowler: I would like some information as to this Richibucto matter. This seems a very large vote. I notice the hon. member for Kent (Mr. LeBlanc) in his place and perhaps he may have some information upon the subject.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is an old work that has cost a large amount of money, and it was in a very bad state of repair. I visited the place a couple of years ago. The work was simply in the worst possible state. We started repairing the work by day's labour. We had a good deal of trouble and I finally made up my mind that the best way of ending my worry was to ask for tenders. We have done so. The tenders are in, but I have not had time as yet to pronounce upon them. The work will be given to the lowest tenderer if there, is nothing to prevent me from doing so.


George William Fowler: I see that you spent nearly $17,000 last year. Is this vote in addition to that ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


George William Fowler: That will be about $37,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work has cost a large amount of money. The original work that we are repairing to-day cost about $150,000. My hon. friend knows the amount of work there is to do. It is a long pier that forms the entrance to the bay. It is a necessary work.


George William Fowler: While we are at these estimates, I would like to call the attention



of the hon. minister to the fact that there is a great variation in the prices of lumber supplied at these different works. I notice here, page V-173, Auditor General's Report, in connection with the repairs to the breakwater at Campobello (Wilson's Beach) that in some cases hemlock is charged for at $11 a thousand which would be a fair price. This is one of our cheapest woods, but I find that in another place another contractor charged for hemlock $19.50 a thousand.
An lion. MEMBER. The same work ?


George William Fowler: It is the same work but not the same man.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Not on the same day and not from the same place either.


George William Fowler: There has never been in the history of the lumber business, as far as I am acquainted with it, and I think I know something about it, such a variation in the price as that during the same season, or in fact any season-a difference of $8.50 a thousand. I see that Messrs. John Dewar & Sons supplied hemlock at $11 a thousand and that for the same work Mr. F. E. Sayre supplied hemlock at $19.50 a thousand, and birch hewn timber at $17.50 a thousand.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I know my hon. friend does not want to be unfair, but he has only to look at the statement and lie will see that it is not the same kind of timber at all. There is sawn timber, log timber and hewn timber, and these are not the same classes of timber at all. It may be hemlock, but it is hemlock prepared in a different way. I may say that my officers have received and are receiving the most positive instructions to buy material at the lowest possible prices in the market, and I do not think that any member of parliament will be able to prove before the Public Accounts Committee that I have done anything other than that. My officers are always instructed to buy material at the lowest possible prices, and on this occasion the hon. gentleman will find that this is not the same material at all.


George William Fowler: No, it should be cheaper in the one case than in the other. The smaller the size a log is cut into and the more sawing you do the higher the price will be. But here, this timber is simply squared. Hewn hemlock was charged for at the rate of $17.50 a thousand by Mr. Sayre and the other at $19.50 a thousand while the other man sells his timber at $11 a thousand.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is round timber.


George William Fowler: Supposing that is the ease, it is altogether too high a price. Seven


George William Fowler: dollars would be a good price for hemlock round. It is only a question of towage. Suppose you towed it from the mouth of the St. John river it would not cost more than $1.25 a thousand, and here is a charge besides for towage in Mr. Sayre's bill.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am informed that the timber came from the county of Albert.


George William Fowler: No, that timber came from up the River St. John. That is where Mr. Sayre's timber lands are located. He is a merchant living in the city of St. John. This timber would come down the St. John river, either from Mr. Sayre's own lands on the Salmon river, a tributary of the St. John, or from the lands on the upper waters of the St. John river. If it were squared timber, it certainly should not cost as much as boards, and the very highest price of hemlock boards is $9 a thousand. Here we have a charge of $17.50 a thousand. That is from $0 to $7 a thousand out of the way.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If my hon. friend is right, my officers are wrong, and on the other hand, if my officers are right my hon. friend is wrong. It is all very well to state on the floor of parliament that the price of this and that article is too high. Conditions are not always the same. In New Brunswick I have had at times some little trouble here and there, but I have never found that any extraordinary charge has been made. However, my chief engineer will take a note of what my hon. friend says and inquire as to the reason why there is that difference. I understand that the timber is long timber, specially long, 45 feet long. It is pretty difficult to judge of these matters on the floor of the House. It is easier to speak than to buy cheaply.


George William Fowler: Hemlock grows very tall in our country, and it is the cheapest lumber we have in our country. Therefore, it is no excuse or argument to say that it is long timber, beca'use long timber would be nearly as cheap as short timber. It sells by the thousand feet and there is no argument in that. I may say, no matter how much confidence the hon. minister may have in his officers, that they are clearly wrong in this instance. This man has received from $6 to $7 a thousand too much for his lumber, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubts.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I would be very sorry to And out that my hon. friend is right. I will find out tomorrow whether he is right or wrong. I have discovered no information that has come to me on that point. I will find out the reason for the price he paid. If my hon. friend is wrong, I will ask him to say that he is wrong.


George William Fowler: I will be very glad to do so.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, I will make that bargain with him.


George William Fowler: I am quite agreeable, but I shall expect that my hon. friend will be reciprocal and will acknowledge it if he is wrong.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My chief engineer is instructed to wire to Mr. Shewen to know why he has paid that price, because his hands have always been free. He, like all my other officers, are ordered to buy at the lowest market price.
I challenge any member of parliament on either side to say that I have given any other order than that. Mr. Shewen will be wired immediately and I will communicate the answer to my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler). That is fair, I suppose.


George William Fowler: Not exactly fair and for this reason :	That you are wiring to get
your information from the same man who made the mistake, which I do not think is fair at all. It is not necessary for the minister to get heated over the matter because I am not imputing the slightest blame directly to him. I only say that his officers have deceived him in this matter, as his friend deceived him the other day about the appointment of a clerk of works at the Sussex armoury. I do say that there are gentlemen supporting the minister on the other side of the House who know something about the price of lumber in the province from which we come, and if they state what they know to be the fact, they will state that this is an excessive price for any hemlock lumber ; and not only for hemlock, but he has charged $17.50 a thousand for birch, which is a very high price. The ordinary rough pine and not clear pine would be used for the purpose of a breakwater. If this were clear pine the price would not be excessive, but for the class of pine that would go into a breakwater it is an excessive price-that pine is worth $7 or $8 a thousand.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If Mr. Shewen paid too much I would be surprised because he is one of the hardest men I have met in my life.


George William Fowler: Then get your information from another source than Mr. Shewen and you will be surprised.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will ask my officer why he paid that much and from whom he asked quotations, because I am sure he did ask for quotations. If my hon. friend gives me any other source of information I am prepared to accept it. I do not desire to shield any one of my officers. I cannot be held responsible directly if too high prices are paid, but I am always anxious to get information.
33i


George William Fowler: If the minister will communicate with his officer and get the reasons that his officer gives for these high prices, then if these reasons do not appear satisfactory to me I will give him the names of persons with whom he can communicate, and who are experts in the lumber business.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will be very glad to receive the information.
River St. John, including tributaries, $16,000.


Mr. WILMOT.: How does the minister propose to spend that appropriation of $16,000.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have not yet decided on the work to be done. Last year we spent very little of that appropriation. There are works of several kinds to be carried out there. We have works at Oromocto, at Tobique, at St. Francis, at Bear Island and at Topaz. This vote is for clearing the river generally. It is a very changeable river as the hon. gentleman knows and it contains snags and sandbars of all kinds, so that it is very difficult to name the particular places at which the work will be caried on.


Robert Duncan Wilmot: I am very well acquainted with the river and I know where the works have been carried out. I would urge on the attention of the minister the importance of making an effort to dear that channel. Last year, under the direction of Mr. Shewen, the resident engineer, dredging was commenced where the water was sufficiently deep, and quite unnecessary work was carried on for some time.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At what place ?


Robert Duncan Wilmot: At Oromocto. There was a good deal of criticism on the work, and it was said that the engineer was not going about it properly. He should have commenced directly on the shoal. At a period when the water was at a proper depth the work could have been carried on properly. At all events they had to discontinue the work which they commenced. I would urge upon the minister the necessity of directing his attention to that particular point on the river, namely the Oromocto shoals.
River St. John-wharf at Oromocto, $1,500.


Robert Duncan Wilmot: Does the minister propose to make any other appropriation for that wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: -It was represented to me that the work would cost a large amount of money and then I paused. Later on we had another estimate based on a new survey and we found the work would cost $6,000. We are now preparing plans and asking for tenders for that work.


Robert Duncan Wilmot: The work will be gone on with ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.
St. John harbour-Negro Point breakwater,


George William Fowler: What is being done there?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That work has cost a large amount of money, but the waves are so big there that every year we are obliged to make repairs. This vote is to lay down large blocks of concrete to complete the work.
Upper Salmon river (Alma Pier), $5,700.


George William Fowler: Will this work be let by contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, we have asked for tenders but the contract has not yet been awarded.
Grande Vallee-pier, $25,000.


Gilbert White Ganong: I would like to know something about that $25,000 for a pier at Grande Yallee. What business is there, to warrant this expenditure ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There are large lumber operations carried on In that part of the country, and it was to help that trade that the money was voted last year. The contract for the work has been awarded and I am simply asking parliament to give me the money to pay for that contract which wras commenced on the vote of last year.


Gilbert White Ganong: That is just the understanding I have in regard to this matter- that the hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Lovell) owns large timber properties in that section 'of the country, and that this wharf is virtually being built in the interest of a lumber company in which that hon. gentleman is largely interested-that it is wholly an electioneering matter.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman has not been elected there ; he has been elected elsewhere, where he will be elected again. So this is not an electioneering work, The money for this work was voted last year, and it is being voted again this year, and it is rather late for the hon. gentleman to object to that work now.


Gilbert White Ganong: I have had information that that is the sole purpose of this pier- to make the lumber property of the hon. member for Stanstead valuable. What is the population of the locality ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have just stated that the work has been undertaken in view of large lumbering operations-not because there is a town there ; and I may add that there is no other harbour on the north shore. So that the wharf will Hon. Mr. TARTE.
be used for lumbering operations, for trade purposes, and for shelter for the fishermen.


Gilbert White Ganong: It is a most excellent advertisement for any man who has a good lumber property. AH he has to do, if he votes right, is to come to this government and ask for an appropriation to increase the value of his lumber property. Will the hon. minister tell us whether the site for this pier has been purchased and paid for, and if so, from whom ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It has not. The fact that the hon. gentleman who represents Stanstead may have property there is no reason why the government should not make any improvements. My hon. friend from Charlotte (Mr. Ganong) has large properties in his riding, and I am carrying out improvements there. My hon. friend will not be accused of serving his own interests when he is insisting on money being spent in his riding. This is no argument.


Gilbert White Ganong: Not if the money is spent for general purposes ; but when it is spent for the special purpose of increasing the value of a lumber property, I claim it is wrong.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no doubt that any public works improve the value of property, and if a member of parliament happens to have property in a place where these works are going on, so much the better for him. It does not injure the county.


Gilbert White Ganong: Will the hon. minister be kind enough to tell us from whom the site was purchased and the price ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There has been no land purchased. The wharf is built on the shore.


Gilbert White Ganong: It must front on some one's land.


William Humphrey Bennett: This seems to be an extraordinary proposition. From what has dropped, it would appear that there is a saw-mill situated at this place, and unfortunately there is no proper dock for a large lumbering business. The minister asks the House to vote this large sum for the construction of this dock, and he cannot tell whether a site has been purchased, or if so what the price of the site is. Before the item goes through, I think the minister should state the population of the place, whether the municipality is giving the land lot and the water lot adjoining, and whether there is any contribution by the municipality towards the construction of the dock.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The municipality has not given any contribution-not more than the municipality of Midland will give us, I suppose, for works

which we will build there. This dock is being built in the province of Quebec under the ordinary rules which are applied in all the provinces. No site has been purchased, because it was not necessary to purchase a site. An amount was voted in the estimates last year for this work ; I have been notified to go on with it, and. it is rather late now for hon. gentlemen to complain that we are going on because my hon. friend has property there, hon. gentlemen opposite begrudge the expenditure of the money. I do not think it is fair. The work is being built on a rocky point that does not belong to anybody.


George William Fowler: It must belong to somebody. It is Crown land ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I suppose it is Crown lands.


George William Fowler: Is the work commenced ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, yes. I am simply asking for a vote to supplement the vote of last year. The contract is let, and the work is going on.


George William Fowler: How much was voted last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Last year I had a vote of $15,000. I have been fully authorized to go on with the work.


George William Fowler: If this work was going to cost $40,000, how is it you had only an estimate of $15,000 last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My department asks each year for the amount we expect will be spent during the year, and afterwards we ask what is necessary to supplement the vote.


George William Fowler: What was your engineer's estimate of the whole cost of the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The amount of the contract is $53,000.


George William Fowler: And this work is begun without your having any title to the land on which it is built.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Because it is not necessary to have one. The work is built in the water.


George William Fowler: It must be built on land.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is built on a rocky point which belongs to the Crown.


George William Fowler: It does not matter whether it is a rock or not. It must belong to a private party or to the Crown. If it belongs to the Crown, it belongs, I suppose, to the province of Quebec. The minister, it seems to me, has placed himself in a very peculiar position. He is spending $53,000 on property to which he has no title whatever. What sort of an arrangement can vou make if this property really belongs to
a private individual ? If it belongs to the gentleman who owns these vast lumber lands in that district, you should have got a deed from him before you began the improvements.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In this case it was not necessary to buy the site because the work is built on a point which does not seem to belong to anybody unless to the Crown.


George William Fowler: Is it all wilderness there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a good deal of wilderness there.


George William Fowler: Is there not a village or town or any inhabitants ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a small village.


George William Fowler: About what is the population ? It has a very elaborate name.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: According to the last reports, the population was 370.


George William Fowler: What are the industries ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Lumber and fishing.


George William Fowler: Is there a saw-mill there ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


George William Fowler: How many hands does it employ ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I cannot say.


George William Fowler: Perhaps the hon. Minister of Agriculture, who looks after the census, can tell ?


William Humphrey Bennett: The strength of the Minister of Public Works is certainly shown in the vote now being taken. He presumes so much on his followers that he lets a contract for $53,000 for the construction of a dock, for which he only asked an appropriation of $15,000, and relies on his followers to support him in making the balance of the grant good.


George William Fowler: And they will.


William Humphrey Bennett: What is the position ? The hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Lovell) owns a saw-mill at this point, and taking advantage of his position as a supporter of the government, applied to the Minister of Public Works to have a dock constructed there for the purpose of carrying on his own business. This is on all fours with the vote last year of $75,000 for the construction of a dock at Depot Harbour for the sole benefit of Mr. Booth. The hon. minister last year made a present of $75,000 worth of dockage to Mr. Booth, which that gentleman is today about to dispose of to another corporation. In other words, we increased the value of Mr. Booth's assets to the tune of

$75,000, and the minister did this, knowing that his followers would blindly vote it through. Surely there must be some hon. gentlemen on that side, who, if they feel no moral responsibility themselves, must feel that they are responsible to the people who sent them here. Will they not protest against expenditures of this kind ? I submit that the hon. minister had no right to enter into a contract for $53,000 until he had got the assent of the House. I do not recall last year's vote on this particular question, but 1 believe that a reference to ' Hansard ' will not prove that the hon. minister stated then that there would be an expenditure of $53,000. If the rule is to be laid down that any hon. gentleman who has the requisite l>olitical leverage can have his own private property improved at the expense of the country, it would be well that the country should know it at once. I must congratulate the Minister of Public Works on this fact, that he has not the slightest fear that his followers will not vote through any appropriation he chooses to bring down. This is another tribute to the strong position he holds in the cabinet.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Let me say to my hon. friend that I am not alone in this government and that no contract of this kind can be carried out unless it is approved by my colleagues. I stand here responsible for what I have done just as I am for what they do, and just as they are for what both they and I have done.
I am very much surprised that some of my friends in the other provinces, where much larger works have been carried out, find so much fault- with a work of this kind carried on elsewhere. I gave the House the figures the other day to show that in Ontario there has been a large amount of money expended. In Southampton, for instance, there has been spent a quarter of a million dollars, and I make bold to say that in a few years there will be as much trade in this Grand Vallee a.s there is in Southampton. I admit that it is a pretty large amount to expend but I did not deceive the House. Last year, if my hon. friend had asked me how much the work would cost, I would have told him. The House granted me '$15,000 to build the work and it is now under contract. Do hon. gentlemen want me to repudiate my obligations ? I have never entered into any contract without their consent. I have not deceived anybody. My colleagues know perfectly well what I have done. I can sign no contract, and have no desire to do so, without going before my colleagues. But because the hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Lovell) has mills in that vicinity, my hon. friend raises a row. I cannot help that. The work has to be paid for because the contract is signed, and no doubt it will prove a very useful work.


William Humphrey Bennett: The point I make is this, that the vote is not for a work of public Mr. BENNETT.
utility, but solely in favour of a private interest, namely, a saw-mill owned by the hon. member for Stanstead. Let the expenditure be large or small, the question for us is whether it is for the public utility or simply for the benefit of one private individual. The hon. minister referred to grants in Ontario. Well, in the riding I have the honour to represent I was pleased to see that he has made grants. But under what circumstances ? At the town of Midland there are large industries and a good harbour, and if by the receding of the water, the elevators cannot be approached, is it not the bounden duty of the government to step in and do the necessary dredging ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: And we did it.


William Humphrey Bennett: But if the hon. minister were asked to make a grant for the benefit of any saw-mill owner in East Simcoe-as he has done in this matter-I should object to that expenditure, whether it were in my riding or not. I have objected to expenditures made by the hon. gentleman in my riding. I objected notably to the construction of a dock at a village called Ilawkes-tone. I do not hold the minister accountable for all these expenditures, because his colleagues are equally culpable; and in the case of the dock at Hawkestone, the recommendation came from the Postmaster General. But I can tell the hon. minister that I look with pleasure on expenditures such as are made at Hawkestone. for this reason, that they show the people how the publie money is being frittered away in the attempt to make some petty political capital. But this expenditure recoils on the hon. gentleman. The whole thing was a political job. The man in charge of the work was a hotel-keeper, who lived a mile or so away, and was charging three dollars a day for superintending the work. The question is not whether the expenditure is large or small, but whether it is simply aiding the promotion of a private enterprise, and the private enterprise of a gentleman who happens to hold a seat in this House, supporting hon. gentlemen opposite.


Mr. MONK.: How much was spent on that work last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have not given any estimate yet, but-


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There is only a couple hundred dollars, according to the Auditor General's Report-$233.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Since the close of that report, the work has been going on.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is the contractor ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Messrs. Heney & Smith, Ottawa.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How much has been spent since the 30th of June, the time to which the Auditor General's Report carries us ?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS ' We have not given an estimate, but I am sure there must be a pretty large amount They are wealthy men, and they are going on with the work.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I find the information given with regard to this work very scanty. We do not know how much has been spent. We only know that we are called upon to spend about $50,000 at a place, that in itself does not appear to be very important- its population being about 350. And we have the statement made and repeated that this work is undertaken to satisfy the political urgings of a gentleman who sits in this House and who is largely interested in lumbering operations in that, distant part of the province. We have the statement of the Minister of Public Works that he has not purchased any site for this wharf. But we have no statement as to the representations that have been made to the department of the need for this work. Have the steamboat companies asked for this wharf ? Have the inhabitants joined together to send in a petition for it? Has anything been shown to the government to make it appear that there is any necessity for it outside the private necessity that has been mentioned two or three times this evening ? It is not fair for the Minister of Public Works to say that he has executed large works elsewhere and that members who happen to come from other provinces, but who take part in the work that it is the duty of us all to perform, that of criticising the government, shall not be allowed to a sic such simple questions as those that I have asked. I can say for my own part, that I think the hon. minister appreciates what I say that it is a pity, if it be true that we are spending such amounts as are provided in this resolution largely, as appears so far in this short discussion, for the private benefit of individuals of some people engaged in lumbering operations when, at present, ns a matter of fact, we have the proof before us since last year at the beginning of the session, that that part of the St. Lawrence navigation whicli interests the people of the province of Quebec so deeply, is absolutely neglected-neglected at least to this extent, that as the Minister of Public Works knows better than anybody else, there is not a sufficient amount spent on that navigation of the St. Lawrence to remove the objections put before the government last year in reference to the dangers of that navigation, in reference to the cost of freights, in reference to cost of insurance. And we have the statement made here tonight, unrebuked, uncontradicted, not disproved by the department, that this large amount of money is being spent to forward the interest of one individual or one company in which a member of this House is largely interested. And we have no statement on the other hand from the Minister
of Public Works, or from other quarters that facts have been brought forward to show need of this wharf or to show that the people of the place demanded it. I know that, in the province of Quebec as elsewhere great pressure is brought to bear upon the government to carry on local works. They are of some use to somebody-nobody will deny that. But can we afford to spend large amounts of money on local works when the general scheme of tlie improvement of the navigation of the St. Lawrence from Montreal to the sea is not being done justice to ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The improvement of the St. Lawrence is one thing and the erection of the wharf at Grande Vallee is another thing. We are attending to the improvement of the St. Lawrence better than it has ever been done in the past. It is of no use to make so much fuss-for it is fuss that is being made now and nothing else. The hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux) is not in his seat at the moment. He is one of those who came to the government and represented to us that, if there was a wharf built there large lumbering interests would be fostered and developed. We considered the case and came to the conclusion that it was a meritorious work. Now it is not fair and it is not good policy to say that improvements must always be made at places where there is a large population. If by the erection of this woi'k, you help population to settle there, that will be a good thing. Why, we are spending half a million dollars a year to bring population over from the other side.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: And wasting a lot of it too.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 Because this government has thought pro-i per, has thought it was good policy to foster a large industry in that part of the country- a very interesting part of the province and which has vast resources-we are denounced.
1 I say it again, I know the reason ; it is be-| cause the hon. member for Stanstead hap-| pens to have property there. If that non.
; gentleman had not happened to have pjo-perty there, nothing would have been heard ' of tiie matter. But, because an hon. mem! her for this House has lumbering property 5 in that locality, I have done wrong. But ' whether I have done wrong or right-I an r sure I have done-right as usual-the faith \ of the country is pledged, the contract is p signed and I must pay ; there is no escape now. And permit me to add that there ' have been a good many cases worse than ' this. This is not a bad case. Let my hon. ' friends await the developments of the trade I there-they are too impatient. We must 1 give time for the trade to develop which ' this work is intended to promote.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It is the Minister of Pub-r lie WTorks who is making the fuss. I am

not aware that anybody denounced this undertaking or said that it would not foster trade. But the Minister of Public Works has admitted that he has spent this sum of $50,000


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, $53,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Oh, I have no doubt it will be $00,000 before the hon. gentleman gets through. He is spending this money to develop trade. Now, does he not think, when this vast work is being executed purely for the future, that it would be better to erect there a wharf at a cost of $10,000 or of $15,000 and spend the balance to do justice to what seems to me the extremely fair representation made last year by Major Bond, speaking on behalf of the underwriters of Montreal with respect to such general improvements to the navigation of the St. Lawrence either through the Marine Department or through the Public Works Department as to remove from the shoulders of the merchants and exporters of Montreal the heavy burden of the extra premiums they have to pay.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The little money we are spending for the benefit of the trade and of the fishermen in Gaspe will not prevent this country from carrying out the necessary improvements in the St. Lawrence. My hon. friend the leader of a party understands that. The expenditure of $20,000 or $25,000 in Gaspe will not prevent us from carrying out the necessary works in the St. Lawrence. We are attending to the St. Lawrence, and at the same time we are endeavouring to attend to the requirements of the trade and of the population of Gaspe. This is a very interesting part of the country, and great developments are expected by those who are acquainted with it. Now, if we do not show a spirit of progress, if we do not occasionally move in advance of the times, if we do not force progress, we will be accused of being slow. I do not like to be accused of being slow.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I was not present, unfortunately when my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) made his speech against Grande Vallee.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I did not make a speech against Grande Vallee at all.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I may say to my hon. friend that the work at Grande Vallee is a most important one. As a result of this work an improvement is already manifest in that locality. In 1896 when I ran for the first time in that county and visited Grande Vallee, I found that fifty electors resided there. Yesterday I was consulting the census returns, and I found that as a result of this work, the population has increased to 352 souls.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: But we only spent up to the 30th of June last, $233 there, according to the Auditor General's Report.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, but the prospective expenditure has already brought to that place a great enterprise. The name of the Messrs. Lovell has been mentioned. They have there perhaps the most extensive lumber mills in the lower portion of the St. Lawrence. The name of the county of Gaspe is frequently mentioned in the estimates. It is true that the government has spent many thousands in that county during the last few years. But we must not forget that there are no railways in the county of Gaspe, that no subsidies have been paid there, and these are the only improvements that have yet been made so far as breakwaters and wharfs are concerned. Now my learned friend speaks of navigation, and the improvements which should be made in the lower portion of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Prior to 1890 there was no steam communication between Quebec and Montreal, and the different ports and harbours on the coast of Gaspe. As a result of these works at Cape Chat, at Grande Vallee, at Gaspe Basin, at Perce, at Fox river, at Anse a Beaufils. giving facilities and accommodations to the travelling public, a line of steamers has been established between the large centres and the coast. Previous to that period, no steamer would have gone to that coast. But to-day we have several harbours and safe shelters, and as a result, a regular steamship's service. The fishermen of that coast have been treated like slaves for the last century. I have met fishermen on the coast of Gaspe who had not seen a red cent during their whole life. They used to sell their fish to the merchants on the coast and were paid in trade. Since the establishment of that line, and as a result of the improvements which were made by the Department of Public Works, today the fishermen of Gaspe are trading with Montreal and Quebec, and even with the province of Ontario, as Mr. Flavelle, one of the most important merchants and manufacturers of Lindsay, told me a fortnight ago. Therefore, I think my learned friend should not criticise these small amounts, because this is the ' first time since the county of Gaspe has been represented in this House that any grants have been made to it by parliament. The county of Gaspe is the oldest county in the Dominion of Canada.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the hon. gentleman talking about other works than this one, or is he confining his remarks to the vote we are now discussing ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am speaking of the works which have been constructed at Grande Vallee, at Cape Chat, at Fox river,

at Perce, at Anse a. Beaufils, and at Newport.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What work favourable to steam navigation did my hon. friend refer to as having been executed at Anse it Beaufils ? I thought that was specially for fishermen and not for steamers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is for fishermen. At Box river, for instance, a work was constructed last year and the year previous.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At Amherst.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I did not speak of the Magdalen Islands, that is another question. But on the coast of Gaspe, whenever a steamer was caught by a storm, she had to cross the St. Lawrence on the north coast to get shelter. To-day, owing to the works done at Grande Yallee, at Cape Chat and at Fox river, this is avoided. They are most useful works, and nobody would criticise them, on the coast of Gaspe.


Mr. AVERY.: Since the hon. gentleman is so well acquainted with that place where there are 350 souls, can he not tell us who owns the land that this dock is to be built on V


Rodolphe Lemieux: Grande Vallee is in a seigniory, and it belongs to the firm of the Messrs. Lovell.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Then this is built on the Lovells' property ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: No, it is built for the general advantage of the people there.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Even if it was.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Well, we would like to own it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, so would I.


George William Fowler: I would ask the minister whether, in view of all the information he has with respect to the ownership of this property, he intends to get a deed of the land that will be occupied by this wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, although I do not believe it is necessary. I have just reproved my chief engineer for having gone on with that work without a deed, but he tells me it is on a rocky point that is not supposed to belong to anybody.


George William Fowler: But the hon. member for Gaspe says it belongs to the Messrs. Lovell.


Rodolphe Lemieux: No, the seigniory. This is a shore.


George William Fowler: But the less must be included in the greater. Certainly this property belongs to the Lovells. If the minister was building a house for his own use, he would scarcely build it upon another man's property. He would find there would
be some question raised about the title if he wanted to sell the property. Now, I understand this wharf has been built by parliament, therefore it belongs to the country. But we find now it belongs to a company, and the government have been building upon their land. Surely it is the intention of the minister to see that the Messrs. Lovell give a deed. They should make it a free gift to the department.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not expect that there will be any trouble as to the ownership but even if there were any trouble we can always expropriate.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There is nothing before us but what has been told us by the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux), that we are expending $60,000 upon a wharf that is being built on the property of Mr. Lovell.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In tidal waters.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: If he is the owner of the seigniory he is the owner of the foreshore, If it is on Mr. Lovell's property we would be justified in making this vote conditional upon the government being entitled to a deed of the property.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There will be no trouble as to the ownership of the land.


George William Fowler: This is the second instance that has come to our notice to-night in which the title has not been obtained to a property where wharfs are to be erected. I think that the hon. minister should bring his officers up with a pretty sharp turn in connection with this matter, and instruct them that in all cases they shall s$e that no public money is expended on property without obtaining a title to that property.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have given written instructions which I will bring before the House, to every one of my officers to do in each case, that which has been alluded to here to-night. In the Carnquet case it is a question of $20, and it has been verbally arranged. The deed has not been executed. It has been overlooked. All the same I agree that it should have been arranged because I have had trouble over little things like that. There are certain properties to which we did not obtain titles in the past. I quite agree that we should have titles in every case, and my officers have received positive instructions on that point. They are within hearing of my voice and they know that I have given them the most positive and severe instructions.


George William Fowler: That very fact might tend to shake the confidence of the minister in his officers obeying his instructions in other matters.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, no.


George William Fowler: The hon. gentleman said that he had given instructions in respect to the purchase of supplies to these officers and that he had absolute confidence that these gentlemen had not exceeded his instructions. In this case he has given just as positive and severe instructions and they have not obeyed his instructions. In this case two new wharfs have been built and in neither case have the title deeds been obtained. I think the hon. gentleman will find that they have neglected his directions in other matters as well as this.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This is a case in which there is much ado about nothing. In one ease there is $20 involved, and you cannot hang a man for $20.


George William Fowler: It is not the amount of money.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Where is the big firm in which similar transactions will not happen ? I grant it should have been done.


George William Fowler: Where is the big firm that would build on property without getting the title to it ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There are not many big firms in this country possessing the rights which are conferred upon the hon. Minister of Public Works by the Act respecting the Expropriation of Lands, Chapter 39 of the Revised Statutes, which permits the minister to enter upon and take possession of property for the purpose of constructing public works. All that is necessary for him to do is to deposit his plan, and that plan being deposited, he may proceed with the expropriation. He can do it now, and if he can do it now what is all the row about ?


George William Fowler: Yes, but he will have to pay a great deal more for that land if he puts a work upon it before he gets the title.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: It is a remarkable statement to say that the Minister of Public Works, after he has entered upon a property to make improvements, as he is authorized by law to do, will be obliged to take into consideration these improvements in the expropriation.


George William Fowler: But you will find that a jury will award a much larger amount.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The jury lias nothing to do with it at all. It is the arbitrators who will settle it.


George William Fowler: It is the same thing.


Andrew B. Ingram: When the statement is made that the hon. Minister of Public Works is expending $53,000 in building a pier facing the water front, that the country has no deed for, I will tell the hon. Minister of Justice where all the fuss will come in. In Ontario and in other provinces throughout the Dominion, there are municipalities


Hon. Mr. TARTE.: and private individuals who own wharfs facing water fronts and I venture to say that these corporations and persons have c;:me to the hon. Minister of Public Works and asked for assistance towards the maintenance of these wharfs, and that the minister has refused to grant them monej. What position is the minister in ? He has told us that he has granted this money without any deed or any claim on the property facing the water front, and he has refused the request that deputations have brought before him, on the ground that the government did not own these properties I say it is a very improper course and it is a course which was not pursued years ago by the government of this country. Heretofore, the government, before they undertook to expend any money on works of that kind, insisted first on the private owners transferring their harbour to the government. This has been the practise in the past, and a proper practise I think. If that practise had been followed out it would not be necessary to impress upon the Minister of Public Works the necessity of building public harbours or piers at these points. To-niglit we have not had a single bit of information as to what will be done at this harbour other than in the general statements made by the hon. member for Gaspfi (Mr. Lemieux), and these statements have reference to five other harbours in addition to this one. If the hon. gentleman had confined his remarks to the subject under discussion the committee could have discussed this matter more intelligently. He should be in a position to tell us the exact condition of affairs at this harbour. He has not given us that information, and therefore we should not pass this item until we do get it.


Melzar Avery: How much money has already been spent on this wharf ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The work is going on. We have not yet given any estimate. The two contractors are carrying out their work. Now, while I am on my feet, I may say that in a fortnight I will lay on the Table of the House deeds for these two properties. There is not much in it, but I grant that the property should have been secured by deed beforehand. My officers. I say in their presence, should have done it. It has been overlooked, not because they meant to do wrong, but because they thought it was not necessary. The hon. Minister of Justice tells me that it is better to have the deed and we will have it. At Oaraquet it is a matter of $20 and a verbal arrangement. We will have it in writing.	*


George William Fowler: It seems to me that there is something of a disagreement between the hon. Minister of Justice and the hon. Minister of Public "Works. The hon. Minister of Justice informed us a few minutes ago that everything was all right, and if so, he


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: If Caraquet costs more than $20 then I will pay it.


George William Fowler: I am very glad that the hon. gentleman does not propose to follow the suggestion of the Minister of Justice, and that he intends to get the title of that property.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the member for Gaspe sa v what is the nearest harbour to Grande Vallee ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is about forty miles.


Andrew B. Ingram: Surely the hon. member (Mr. Lemieux) must have given some good reasons in the first instance as to why this money should be expended.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He has given me the best reasons possible.


Andrew B. Ingram: What are they ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman was not in the House, as he should have been, or he would have heard what I said.


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, I was in the House.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I will repeat the useful information I gave before. There are large lumbering operations in sight.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Oh, we heard that.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There was a large increase of population in sight also. If that population increased on the mere hopes of building the wharf what must we expect when the wharf is built ?


Andrew B. Ingram: It is a very funny matter to spend this $53,000. I can tell the Minister of Public Works that I have been in the House during the whole discussion, and I can say that if all his appropriations are based on the enlightened information he has given to the House in this case, then God help the country. As to the increased population, the member for Gaspe said there were fifty electors in 189G, and that the population
had increased to 350 souls. Will the hon. gentleman multiply the families of the electors in 1896 by the usual rule-


An hon. MEMBER.: The French rule.


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, and I venture to say that he will get 350 souls in 1896. He counted the electors in the one case and the souls in the other. Will he tell us how many souls there were in 1896 V


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Did I understand the minister to say that there was a contract for $53,000 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, signed and sealed.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Who is the contractor ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Messrs. Heney & Smith, from Ottawa.
Hudson wharf, $1,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Have any representations been made to the department as to that wharf not being located where it would be of most use ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My' chief engineer tells me that we have not received any such representations.
Isle au Coudre-addition to wharf, $6,000.


Mr. MORIN.: Is that wharf built at Isle au Coudre for steam boats or sail boats ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is for steamboats and for sail boats also.
I am in hopes that Isle au Coudre will become a summer resort of great importance as all the other places on the St. Lawrence are becoming year after year.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: The minister says he has hopes, but I do not think it pays the government or anybody else to build wharfs on hopes. If there was any public interest to be served I would like to see a wharf built there, but no steamers go to that place and there is no traffic there at all.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC V RKS.: The hon. gentleman is quite mistaken. Steamers stop there. That wharf has been built twenty-five years and we are only adding to it. There is a population on Isle au Coudre of 1,500, and it is increasing rapidly. The climate is fine there. There is a larger number of summer tourists visiting this place than formerly, and there is large fishing and farming interests. Isle au Coudre is one of the most fertile parts of the province of Quebec.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: The minister speaks very highly of the island, and I do myself, too. That island has been inhabited for about 250 years and it has a population of about 1,100. If it is such a nice place and such a good place it must have been since last month, because for 250 years it has been growing to a population of 1,100.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They are doing much better now.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Where will the steamer start from and where will she go to Isle au Coudre ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend knows very well that there are steamers starting from Montreal and Quebec, and visiting all these places. This is one of the most thriving parishes of the lower part of the St. Lawrence, and this work is just for the purpose of helping the trade. Two steamers stop there.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Twice a week all summer.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I have been on the boats up and down, and they have never stopped there.
Isle aux Grues-repairs to wharf, $3,500.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works again what is the use of a wharf at that island ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That island is populated by good loyal citizens who want to have communication with other parts of the world, and for that purpose they must have a wharf. They have no railway ; this is an island, and steamers and sailing boats stop at that port. If my hon. friend were located there he would like to have some communication with us.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I believe the Minister of Public Works does not understand exactly the meaning of steamers and steamboats. There never was and there never will be a steamer to stop there;'but steamboats may. I never knew more than .one steamboat, and a small one at that, to leave Quebec in the fall of the year and go there. Many sailboats come from there, but no line of sailboats or steamboats stop there at all.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Where is this removal to take place ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is intended to help the fishermen to land their boats. If my hon. friend has visited the coast of Gaspe and Bonaventure, he knows that there are rocks carried by the waves and storms, which often prevent the fishermen landing their boats when seeking shelter; and part of this vote will be used to remove the rocks to help the fishermen to land their boats and prevent them being drowned.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think that is very good, but where are these rocks ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: This vote is a general one, just as we might ask for $10,000 for repairs. Our engineers will report to us that there are rocks to be removed at one place or another. A similar vote is taken every year for the same purpose.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think the minister himself will see that, small as this sum is, it is a pity that we have not something to show us where the rocks are that are to be removed. Not one of the employees of the department can tell us where there is a demand for the removal of rocks.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My hon. friend is altogether wrong. We could bring more demands than we have money to comply with. When we apply for a general vote for repairs, we cannot say in advance at what points it will be spent. This vote is similar. We know that we have a large fishing trade on the coast, and that every year we are obliged to remove rocks, and they are removed at such places as are pointed out to us. Will my hon. friend allow me to ask him not to begrudge the vote of a small amount of money for the benefit of the fishermen ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I am not opposing it.
Lake Temiscamingue-improvements, $10,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What are these improvements?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We intend starting the construction of a dredge with the amount of money for which we are applying. We have hesitated a good deal as to what we should do. As my hon. friend knows, there is a large current of immigration towards that part of the country, and we have been considering whether we should raise the level of the lake by building a dam or whether we should dredge. After careful investigation, we have come to the conclusion that it is better to have a small dredge for the purpose of dredging the mouth of the river.
Lower St. Lawrence-removal of rocks, &c., $3,000.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WTORKS.: No, I know that. The hon. gentleman is perfectly right in asking for information. I just call his attention to the great importance of protecting these poor fishermen in the gulf. When a storm arises, if they cannot find shelter and laud their boats easily, they will not only at times lose their boats, but also lose their lives. At page 100 of my report my hon. friend will find full information as to the places where rocks were removed last year.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I do not like the minister to be under the impression that I am opposed to any assistance being given to the fishermen-far from it; but I think that on votes of this kind we should have satisfactory information as to where the money is to be spent. For my own part, I do not pretend to know the Gaspe peninsula perfectly, but I made a trip there and went

along the coast from Dalhousie to Gaspe basin and back, and met a great many people connected with the district, and although the building of wharfs is of great use, I am bound to say frankly that from the people of the district and the people on the boat I heard that in many instances these expenditures on public works were used to oblige political friends, and that you could spend the money to much greater advantage in the interior, improving its agricultural condition and giving roads and railway communication, because once you leave the coast and go to the interior of the peninsula you find room for an immense population and a country comparatively deserted.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: Tlie government cannot build roads.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It can build railways.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That would cost a large amount of money. That is a horse of another colour. We are now discussing a small vote for the removal of rocks, and I have given all the information I can. If the hon. gentleman will look at my report, page 100, he will get further particulars.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This grant is voted but not expended every year. Its expenditure depends on the petitions sent to the department, and in some years a greater amount is required than in others. For instance, two or three years ago about 200 or 250 boats were lost on the coast, and it became necessary to take means to prevent a recurrence of such loss. My learned friend has not visited the worst part of the coast of Gaspe. The portion between Dalhousie and Gaspe Basin, which he visited, does not require such an expenditure, but from Grand Greve, at the head of Gaspe Bay, down to St. Anne Des Monts, a good deal of expenditure is necessary because that part of the coast is not protected against the ocean; and in fact is known by travellers and sailors as the graveyard of the Atlantic. This amount of money is generally spent, as the hon. minister has explained, in removing rocks and boulders from the small harbours where the fishermen get shelter. At Cape Rosier, which is the most dangerous place in the gulf, sometimes $200 and $300 have to be expended. This vote is a most useful one, and I should be very sorry to have the item struck out. It really affords the only protection these people have. In some of the harbours $25 is spent; in others $200. In some places there are no rocks one year, and the next year the harbour will be full of rocks. This money is also spent not only in the county of Gaspe, but in Rimouski, and a small portion of it in Bona-venture.
My hon. friend has told us that more useful expenditure could be made by providing railways. Well, I may say that ever since
I have been elected, I have been continually struggling to get better railway accommodation, but have been hampered by the Baie des Chaleurs Railway Company of Armstrong fame. It has been the misfortune of the peninsula of Gaspe to have had Mr. Armstrong as the promoter of railway accommodation in that part of the country. He did build a railway from Metapedia to New Carlisle, but the work has stopped there, and to-day the rest of the peninsula is deprived of railway communications. Two years ago, I presented to this House a Bill to incorporate a railway company, composed of the best railway men in the Dominion, among whom were Messrs. Macrae & Ross, the gentlemen who built the Great Northern from Quebec to Hawkesbury. They were ready to take up the construction of a railway, but the Bill, after passing this House, was defeated in the Senate through the Armstrong influence. These men were prepared to build a railway from Gaspe Basin to New Carlisle, and even into the interior, striking a point somewhere near Causapscal, in the county of Rimouski.
At my request, the government put into the estimates in . 1898 a subsidy amounting to about a quarter of a million dollars to build that line, but no company would undertake the project on account of the opposition of the Baie des Chaleurs Railway. The subsidy is still in the estimates, and I hope, the day is not far distant when a new railway line will be built as far as Gaspe Basin.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: My hon. friend must not think that because we ask for some explanation we desire to have the item struck. When we have such a desire, we will make a move in that direction. But we are entitled to some explanation. What my hon. friend says about Mr. Armstrong I would not like to let go entirely unchallenged. He is more familiar with the facts than I, but there are two sides to every story, and possibly there is another version besides the one he has given the House. If Mr. Armstrong has the powerful influence which my hon. friend says he has-sufficient to prevent the peninsula of Gaspe from having the benefit of railway accommodation- he has much greater influence than I have credited him with.
Sly hon. friend will bear me out when I say that outside the wharfs down there, the cry is for railway communication, and when we come to spend money in that peninsula we ought to see that it is spent for the greatest benefit of the people. I -would ask my hon. friend whether there are any works projected this year from Perce, around the extremity of the peninsula, into the estuary of the St. Lawrence, which is the most dangerous part ?


Rodolphe Lemieux: A wharf was built at Cape Chat three or four years ago, and there is now the Grande Vallee pier, which we are providing for. The works at Fox river

are going on and a few days ago tenders have been advertised for in the newspapers to build a breakwater at Point St. Peter, between Perce and the Bay of Gaspe. At Point St. Peter there was two years ago a loss of sixty boats, and I think the expenditure there, is a very wise one. That is the only new work I know of this year.
Murray Bay-increasing height of wharf and extending same, $6,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Was there not work done there last year to a considerable amount ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, and this is to complete the raising and enlarging of the wharf.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I do not see why the government should not compel the Richelieu Comxmny to build their own wharfs, at Murray Bay or anywhere else, which is touched by their line of steamers. It is ridiculous for the government to build wharfs for a company like the Richelieu Navigation Company. Why cannot this company build their own wharfs ? The lion. Minister of Public Works may think that I am rising just to find fault, but that is not the case. I am not in the habit of getting up very often, but I have the right to see what becomes of the people's money. That money goes and is not divided equally. Now, there is the St. Lawrence river. The people that live along that stream have all the facilities people could ask for. They have the waterway, they have the railway, and the wharfs to assist them to use the waterway are built for them. But the people who live in the back counties, such as the one I represent, cannot get help to the extent of one cent. I have heard members of parliament from the west complain about having to haul their grain fifteen miles to market. I have heard them say : We have been living in the west fifteen or sixteen years, and do you think we are going to haul our grain fifteen miles to market ? It is ridiculous ; we must have a railroad. Just think-the county of Dorchester was opened by my grandfather in 1707; and I would like to see the man in this House or out of it who could show where the government has ever spent one cent in that county. Now, I will give you time to reply to that. Some three or four years ago there was a bridge carried away, the fourth bridge at that place. I came here aud asked the Minister of Public Works to have a donation of $200 towards a new bridge. I-did not get it, but I suppose I was to blame. If I had asked the hon. gentleman for $20,000 I might have got $1,000. But I was reasonable, and asked for only $200-and did not get one cent.


An hon. MEMBER.: That was a local work.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Why, if you will look at these estimates, you will see where this Mr. LEMIEUX.
parliament is asked to vote money to build bridges right here in Ottawa. Has not a bridge been built across the canal ? Is that a local work or not ? But this is the way we are treated. Because we live back from the St. Lawrence, away from civilization, as you say, we must get along without encouragement and without help. There was a bridge across the Etchemin river


Rodolphe Lemieux: That was the Quebec government.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Quebec or Ontario, it was a bridge, just the same. An hon. gentleman this evening quoted some of the prices paid by the Minister of Public Works for timber. The Minister of Public Works does not understand prices and qualities and quantities of timber. I must say I understand these matters very. well. The Minister had some doubts about the prices paid. I can say to the hon. gentleman that I have no doubts at all. I can give him a case. I do not speak from hearsay, but what I say-it is so. There was a man near Quebec-I do not propose to mention his name in this House, he was a strong Tory. Remember that. As he was a strong man, the Grit party bought him.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: Yes, Sir. And after they had bought him, they had to feed him, or he would slip away from them. And what did that gentleman do 1 Some three years ago, he came to me and said : I have the contract to furnish the government with some timber, round timber and hewn timber. He asked me if I would kelp him to get it. I said : ' No, I am out of that business.' ' Well,' he said, ' will you help me by telling me where I can get it ? ' I said I would. I went home and saw the men who live about me and told them of the matter, and they said they would hew some timber. The gentleman came down, and 1 took him around, told him this man would get some timber for him, and the other would get him some more, and so on. They made a bargain before me. The price that this man gave to them was 6 cents for round timber. Bear that in mind. The Auditor General's Report shows that the government paid that man 12 cents for that same timber. For another class of timber, he agreed to pay these people 12 cents a foot-the report shows that the government paid 18 cents a foot. Do not you tell me I am mistaken, for it won't do. This gentleman never bought an ax, he never bought a cant hook, he never bought a tree. The people did all the work, and, as the government paid him he paid them. Now, the lumberman has to send his men up to the timber limits, cut the logs, drive them, saw them, put the lumber away for a year and then sell it. He is out of his money for two or three years.

And if lie gets two or three or four dollars a thousand profit, he is well satisfied. So, if a gentleman can clear six cents a foot without doing anything and without risk, why should he not be satisfied. This shows just what I say-first you bought him, and then you had to feed him or he would slip away from you. Now that is all.
Riviere St. Maurice-channel between Grandes Piles and La Tuque, $8,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How is that work being done ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We have a small dredge of our own, which will do the work.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It is not under contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No, this is a small dredge we have built ourselves, and we are working it in the usual way.
Riviere St. Maurice-dredging, $6,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Has that dredging been asked for by the people ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is a large trade. No part of the country is developing more rapidly than that.


Samuel Hughes: What is the payment per day for a dredge on work like this ? The reason I ask is that I see figures down here for dredges at the rate of $05 per day.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: When we reach the item for dredging I will be glad to give all the information available.
St. Alexis-Bale des Ha ! Ha ! $4,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: There was a pier built there last year.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is to complete the same pier; we have not enough money.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It was done last year by day work. Does the minister not think he might have gained something by calling for tenders ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In that district the work has been nearly all done by day labour with great success.
Sorel-deep water wharf, $170,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: Will the minister give us an explanation of this most extraordinary item ? I heard a startling statement made a little time ago by the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Morin), although it was not new to me. It was that the government from time to time are constructing along the St. Lawrence river these docks for the accommodation of steamboat companies. Let me tell the Minister of Public Works that the Richelieu and Navigation
line, if I am not mistaken, ply into the city of Toronto. The government does not build docks for them in Toronto. They go into the province of Ontario where business is done on business principles, and where the thing would be nothing short of an outrageous scandal were it exposed. Consequently the Richelieu and Navigation Company go to some private individuals who own a dock in the city of Toronto, and make an arrangement by the year for the use of the dock, paying rent therefor. Yet-here to-night-I suppose this may be news to some hon. gentlemen opposite. I am astounded that some of those gentlemen from Ontario do not rise up and ask any questions in reference to these matters. ,1 see the Minister of Customs (Hon. Mr. Paterson) sitting before me. I will be bound to say that had he attempted to defend any one of these items in the riding of West Durham when he was there a few weeks ago, his friends would have got a worse black eye in the rural districts than they did get there. The whole province of Ontario, the -whole Dominion, know that the government down in the St. Lawrence river are taking the money of the people of Canada by thousands and thousands to construct docks for the purpose of affording accommodation to a wealthy company. Now, may I ask the minister this question in connection with this dock at Sorel ? What is the expenditure intended on the construction of this dock, has the contract been let, and is the dock to be constructed on property already acquired by the Crown7 The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. The dock is being constructed now on property acquired, a deed of which we have in our possession. Let me tell my hon. friend that the Richelieu Company has nothing at all to do with that work, it will not be used by them. They have their own wharfs in the Richelieu river. This work is at the junction of the Richelieu and the St. Lawrence, and is being built for the accommodation of trade. My hon. friend may happen to know that the New York Central interests have bought lately the South Shore Railway. There are two railway companies at Sorel. The work we are doing there is for the accommodation of trade, for the same purpose for which we have built and are building to-day, wharfs, piers and harbours in every province, Ontario included. It is useless for my hon. friend to say that we are doing that work in Quebec while we are neglecting Ontario. He has only to look at the figures in the estimates to find that Ontario has the lion's share. We have done in the past, all governments have done in the past, large harbour improvements in every province, Ontario included. Meaford, Owen Sound, Collingwood, all these harbours have cost a large amount of money. In Collingwood the government has spent over $400, 000. The money is well invested, we do

not complain. Collingwood Is not more important than Sorel, Owen Sound is not more important than Sorel.


Albert Edward Kemp: Are you building a wharf in Collingwood 1


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: We are doing dredging operations there.


Albert Edward Kemp: We are talking about a wharf.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Harbour works are of different kinds. Sometimes they require a dredge. There is a good deal of dredging on that work. My hon. friend will not tell me there have been no works done in Ontario. There are dozens of harbours, wharfs and breakwaters that we have built in the past in Ontario, and we shall continue to build wharfs and breakwaters there in the future. I may say that the harbours of Montreal, Sorel, Three Rivers and Quebec will be largely used for trade purposes, they are being already largely used for that purpose. Trade is increasing every day. If we are going to have that current of trade that we expect, we must provide for it. The works at Sorel, at Three Rivers, at Quebec, at Montreal are just the same kind of works that are being constructed elsewhere.


William Humphrey Bennett: I made no complaint on the score that this was a local work, and that it was being done in the province of Quebec. I tell the minister that there are items in Ontario more disgraceful even than some of these that have been mentioned. Three years ago he constructed a dock in the riding I represent that was a disgrace, so far as the expenditure of public money went. It was at a place called Hawkestone, under the direction of the Postmaster General, and the people there reprobated it. It cost three or four thousand dollars, and the people there reprobated it even though they did get a little' profit out of it. I had a better majority at that point than I ever had, because the people said, if this is a sample of the dissipation of the public money of this country, then we propose to condemn it. I am prepared to support the principle of constructing harbours at any place where they are required by reason of receding water or by reason of deeper vessels plying there. I believe it is proper to do necessary dredging. So far as the expenditure goes that is a matter for the minister and the government to decide.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: At Goderich, how much have we spent in the past ?	$600,000. Not this government
alone, but past governments.


William Humphrey Bennett: These are matters for the people of the country to decide, whether or not the government should do as they are doing, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars at places that never have Hon. Mr. TARTE.
become ports and never will become ports, but simply to meet political exigencies.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The hon. gentleman does not mean to say that Sorel is not an important port.


William Humphrey Bennett: If the minister will give the House this assurance, that they are going to construct docks at Sorel and charge the steamboats which may use those docks a reasonable sum for such use, and that he has reason to believe the revenue derived will be a fair return for the investment, then there is something to be said in favour of it. But, I have this to say to the hon. minister when he takes that stand, that, if it would pay the government to invest in docks and harbours, why are not private parties justified in going into similar enterprises as they do in Toronto V Why does not the government go to Toronto and construct docks ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Have we not spent $1,000,000 in Toronto ?


William Humphrey Bennett: My hon. friend cannot point to where a dollar has been spent in Toronto on docks. True, where private parties have built docks you have spent money in dredging, and you have also expended money in constructing piers and rip-rap works to prevent filling in by sand. As far as Owen Sound goes, I do not think this, or the preceding government, has spent a single dollar on docks.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, on wharfs.


William Humphrey Bennett: Well, I say it was wrong to spend money there for the benefit of the Canadian Pacific Railway or anywhere else, but if the hon. minister will explain to us what this Sorel dock is, we will understand what is proposed.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not hesitate to say that any country that tried to get along on the principle enunciated by the hon. member for East Simcoe (Mr. Bennett) would not get along very fast. If you wait for private enterprise to provide accommodation for trade, you will have to wait a long time before such a system is carried out, and in a young country where we have an immense quantity of trade in prospect, if we do not provide for it, we will never secure it. I say as a matter of general policy, that it is the duty of any government to provide for the accommodation of trade by building wharfs and elevators. If I have a free hand I would not hesitate to erect elevators-


Frederick Debartzch Monk: In Montreal.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC AVORKS.: In Montreal and elsewhere, because, in this century, governments must move on. But, we are doing a great deal and we cannot do everything we would like to do. As to the erection of works at Sorel, as at God-

erieh and elsewhere, we have to do it. My hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) has started his criticism under the wrong impression that these works were created for the benefit of the Richelieu Company. It is nothing of the kind. These are deep water wharfs for the accommodation of the deep draught vessels that will certainly visit that port when these works are completed. As soon as these works are completed by my department they are transferred to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and, as I have stated in connection with some other works,


Albert Edward Kemp: Montreal has harbour dues and Montreal does not ask the government to build wharfs. I do not understand on what principle the government are embarking on this enterprise. If they are going to make an ocean terminal of Sorel, this is the first I have heard of the intention to cultivate a trade of that kind at that place. Do I understand that it is the intention of the New York Central to carry grain down the South Shore and transfer it at Sorel to ocean vessels to be carried thence to Europe ?
the law then applies and the ordinary dues are charged.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I would like to say to the hon. minister that, as we have been informed, the New York Central Railway Company have bought the Canada Atlantic Railway, and according to what the hon. minister says, they have bought the road from Montreal to Sorel. Before they bought these roads it appears there were wharfs enough at Sorel. At least, we heard no complaint about any scarcity of wharf accommodation. How is it that as soon as these American people come in here and buy our railways we must jump right up and build wharfs for them ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: These works were given out by contract long before the New York Central bought the South Shore Railway, in fact, a year or two ago. An appropriation was voted by the House before the South Shore passed into the hands of that syndicate.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: That may all be, but I was just referring to what the hon. minister said. He said that the New York Central had bought the South Shore Railway and required these wharfs.


Albert Edward Kemp: As this is a very large item, 1 think we ought to consider it a little more fully. May I inquire what amount of money it is intended to expend on the wharf at Sorel ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: For that work ?


Albert Edward Kemp: Altogether.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Sorel is a large centre of trade already. There will be a large quantity of products that are shipped perhaps from Montreal now which will be shipped from Sorel. All that large district from St. Hyacinthe on the Richelieu river will certainly ship its produce through Sorel. This is one of the wealthiest parts of the province of Quebec and of the country. My hon. friend has just stated that the government does not vote money directly for the port of Montreal. It is true the trade has paid so far for the works that have been carried on in Montreal. I do not know whether it is the best policy that can be followed, because if we are to compete with American ports, we will be obliged to be progressive, and it may come to pass that public opinion will insist that the government shall do for Montreal what we are doing elsewhere; that is to say, carry out works at the public expense. But, so far the trade of the country that is passing through the port of Montreal is paying the interest on the money that is being expended there. It is about the only port that is supporting itself in that way.


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not suppose there is much difference between the opinions of my hon. friend and myself in reference to the port of Montreal. Probably if we understood each other we would agree. But, in reference to making Sorel an ocean port, it is a new proposition, and I question very much the practicability of the scheme.


The PRIME MINISTER.: This question is not at all a new one. Within a short time this proposal has come before the House. In 1899, I think it was, or, in 1900, when
This is the only expenditure of money that lias ever been asked by parliament for any works at Sorel.


William Findlay Maclean: Will that complete the work ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, the amount of the contract is $255,000.


Albert Edward Kemp: Do I understand that it is intended to make Sorel an ocean terminal, the same as Montreal and Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Certainly.
the Minister of Public Works was away, an appropriation of $25,000 was taken. It was rather a tentative appropriation and was found to be insufficient. Nothing was done upon it. Last year, after having had complete surveys made, an appropriation of $100,000 was asked from parliament and then it was stated that these works, which were intended to be constructed at Sorel, would cost anywhere from $150,000 to $175,000. Now, the intention is to make Sorel an ocean port. This seems to surprise the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Kemp). There is really nothing in it that should surprise him. Sorel is at the confluence of the



Richelieu river and the St. Lawrence, and from time immemorial it has been the great artery of communication for the whole interior of the country south of Montreal. But railways are taking the place of waterways, and two railways are now converging at Sorel, the south shore which has been constructed from Montreal to Sorel and beyond Sorel to Nicolet, and will be completed this year probably to Lotbiniere. There is the United Counties Railway also which became the Rutland Railway, and which I believe now belongs to the New York Central, and it comes from the New York Central railway system at Lake Champlain to the town of Sorel. The traffic of a very wealthy section of the country, of eight or ten of the most wealthy counties in Quebec-Richelieu, St. Hyacinthe, Yamaska, St. John, Iberville-and others will come to this harbour. It is not possible to doubt that a very large trade will be brought there and this work is contemplated in order to accommodate that trade. I was surprised to hear my hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Bennett) make some comparison between the expenditure in the province of Quebec and the expenditure in the province of Ontario. It does not matter in what province we make the expenditure, if It is to accommodate the trade of the country at large, which is coming more and more to the valley of the St. Lawrence, and nobody will grudge money spent for that purpose. This is not only for Sorel, but it is a part of the system to equip the harbours of Montreal, Three Rivers and Quebec. I am sure that my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Kemp) has no doubt whatever that before many years, there will be enough trade coming from Ontario and the west to supply all those harbours, of which Sorel is one.


Albert Edward Kemp: I am glad to have this information. I was not a member of the House when the vote was first taken in 1899 and I did not hear the discussion. In fact until now I never heard of Sorel as a prospective port for ocean vessels. When we consider how long Quebec has been stagnant and how few of the ocean vessels have called there of recent years-in fact only the Leyland line is coming here this summer after years of waiting-we may reasonably come to the conclusion that Montreal and Quebec will be for years the principal ports of the St. Lawrence. I confess that I do not see how Sorel is to become an ocean port. I quite agree with the Prime Minister that the valley of the Richelieu is very fertile but the agricultural products of that district are not sufficient to afford trade for this large harbour.
So far as the Rutland road is concerned it will bring no traffic to Sorel for export, because its terminal at one end is practically in New York, a sea port, and Sorel would be the other. It will be many years, and Mont-Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
real and Quebec will have to develop to an enormous extent, before Sorel will get any trade as an ocean port. My impression is that the wharf at Sorel at present is sufficient for the trade of that fertile valley to which the Prime Minister has referred.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoi'ia).: Who are the contractors for this work.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Messrs. Poupore & Malone.


Samuel Hughes: Did the contract call for hemlock or pine.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have not the specifications at hand, but I will lay them on the Table.


Samuel Hughes: I would like to see them.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Will the minister lay on the Table a copy of the contract ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: With pleasure.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Have the works proceeded so far ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Oh, yes, they will be completed at the end of the season. Poupore and Malone have a splendid equipment, perhaps the best of all the contractors I have.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: How much was spent last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The minister tells us that this extension of trade is expected from the new railway companies that are interested in Sorel. Have any steps been taken by the government to find out if these railway companies would contribute any to this expenditure.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The contract was awarded before the present syndicate owned these roads.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Of course it presents a very great anomaly, because if you spend such a large amount as that in towns which have a great deal of promise, the fact remains that in the city of Montreal where our harbours are still unimproved, the trade has to bear the charges of the improvements that are being made there. It is a very regrettable fact, as Mr. Reeve stated last year when he visited Montreal harbour with the Harbour Commissioners, that it was not possible immediately to put that harbour on a proper footing without any further delay. I would not begrudge any improvements that are being made at Sorel. Of course Three Rivers has a very important harbour, and Quebec I need not speak of, but you have this great difference that what is being done at these places is being done at the expense of the govern-

ment, and all that Is being done in Montreal is done at the expense of the trade. Under these circumstances it is a pity that this expenditure cannot be slightly reduced.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is not altogether right to say that all the work that is being carried on at Montreal is carried on at the expense of the trade. Most of the work, nearly the whole of the work is carried on that way, but my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) will not forget that the government is carrying on in the eastern portion of the harbour a very large work, the contract for which is over $600,000. The same contractors, Messrs. Poupore & Malone are proceeding with that work actively. I have been fortunate enough to be able to convince my colleagues and parliament two years ago of the necessity of starting works in the eastern portion of the Montreal harbour. One of the results has been that the Canadian Pacific Railway are locating an immense establishment in that part of the harbour.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: That has nothing to do with it.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Well, the facts are there. The Canadian Pacific Railway knew they would have accommodation. Of course the Harbour Commissioners have already built two low level wharfs, but we are building a magnificent high level wharf that will accommodate the trade. I altogether share the views of my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) that it is a great pity that the port of Montreal has not been equipped sooner, but we are now making up for lost time. I am bound to say that the works are progressing, though perhaps not as fast as I would like them to progress. I hope and trust that these improvements will be completed in the centre of the harbour, the main works, at the close of the present season. Then the equipment of the wharfs will have to be attended to.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I would only ask my hon. friend if it would be possible, in bringing down the contract for the wharf at Sorel, to bring down a copy of the contract for this work at Maisonneuve.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: With pleasure.
Valleyfield-dredging channel in Valleyfield Bay, &c., $4,000.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Where is that dredging to be done exactly ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: In the harbour at Valleyfield. We started the work last year. We have done a good deal of it, and we must go on with it. Valleyfield is becoming every day a more important harbour, and we shall have to do a good deal of work there in the future, iu order to accommodate the large trade centreing there.
34}


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is there any estimate in the department of what it will cost to terminate the work begun last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The chief engineer tells me that this $4,000 will complete the work in that part of the harbour where it was begun last year ; but there is a channel to be dredged 12 feet at the entrance to the harbour. I have a complete survey of this work to be done, but I cannot state just now what the cost of that additional work will be.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is it the case that a portion of this dredging is to allow a free approach of water to the mills ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It is to give a greater depth of water to the trade generally. As my hon. friend knows, Valleyfield has a population of 12,000 souls, and I anticipate that in the next few years It will have a much larger population, and we intend improving that harbour, as we do all the harbours where trade is developing.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Is any of that dredging to be done In the dam of the mills ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: No.


Mr. BLAIN.: Would the minister be good enough to lay on the Table a list of the works to be done by public contract, together with a list of those to be done by day labour, out of this vote of $422,900, at some future time ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: There is no objection. I prepared such a list last year, and I will have another prepared this year, and will lay It on the Table with pleasure.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is that elevator built at Sorel, which the hon. minister promised last year ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I did not promise an elevator last year.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman stated that as a reason why he was spending so much money.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I have no doubt that when that work is completed, there will be an elevator built.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman made the statement last year that that was one of the reasons, and I am simply asking him whether anything more was done with that elevator.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: It was represented to us last year that an elevator would be built. It is not built yet, because our work is not yet above water.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Prime Minister, House adjourned at 12.10 a.m., Wednesday.



Wednesday, March 12, 1902.