1902-04-17

THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY RATES.

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon. Charles Fitzpatrick), moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 116) to amend the provision with respect to tolls of chapter 1 of the statutes of 1881 respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway.
He said: The House is aware that in January last an Order in Council was passed authorizing the Canadian Pacific Railway to increase its capital stock by $20,000,000. The Order in Council provided that no part of this stock shall be issued at less than par and also defined the purposes to which the money to be derived from the sale of the stock shall be applied.
It further provides that this increase of stock shall not in any way. be considered as affecting the question of the control of the government over the rates of the company after its earning power has increased to the extent of 10 per cent or 15 per cent on its capital. In order that the House should be fully Informed of all the facts, I would ask permission to state the legislation which was in existence previous to the passing of this Order in Council, and which would be affected by the Bill I now introduce.
The statutory provisions relating to tne ordinary capital stock of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company are very few and may be stated as follows :
Section 2 of the company's charter, being schedule ' A ' of 44 Vic., chap. 1 (Canada) fixes the capital stock of the company at $25,000,000 divided into shares of $100 each and provides that such shares, or any part thereof, may be granted and issued as paid up shares for value bona fide received by the company either in money, at par, or at such price and upon such conditions as the board o<f directors may fix, or as part of the consideration of any contract made by the company.
This section, it will be observed, enables the directors to sell shares at a discount.
Subsection 20, of section 7. of the Consolidated Railway Act of 1879, enables a railway company, subject to its provisions (and in this respect the Canadian Pacific Railway is subject to its provisions) to increase its original capital stock from time to time to any amount subject to the approval of its shareholders in the manner and form set forth in the said subsection 20.
Under this subsection the capital stock of this company was raised to $100,000,000.
By section 10 of 47 Vic., chap. 1 (1884) the capital stock is limited to $100,000,000, of which $05,000,000 was issued to shareholders and $35,000,000 was deposited with the Dominion government.
By section 3 of 48-49 Vic., chap. 57 (1885) the $35,000,000 of stock then in the hands of the Dominion government was ordered to be cancelled and destroyed, and any further issue was prohibited without the special authority of parliament.
The next and last statute in order is 55-56 Vic., chap. 53 (1892). Sections 3, 4 and 7 of this Act, which are the sections bearing upon the matter, are as follows :
3. In addition to its capital stock at the time of the passing of this Act, and to any which may be issued under the authority of the next preceding section, the company, being first authorized so to do by a vote of at least two-thirds of its shareholders, present or represented at a special general meeting duly called for the purpose, may, from time to time, issue shares of capital stock for any purpose for which the company requires new capital, in such amounts and at such times as the shareholders by resolution at any such meeting determine-such issue being first approved by the Governor in Council and notice of such meeting having been given in writing to each shareholder, delivered to him personally, or properly directed to him and deposited in the post office at least twenty days previously to such meeting, stating the time, place and object of such meeting, and the amount of the proposed increase.
Section 4 reads :
All shares of capital stock issued under the authority of this Act shall be subject to all the provisions of section 2 of the company's charter, as fully as if they were part of the capital stock therein named.
(7) The proceeds of each issue of shares of capital stock or of consolidated debenture stock under the authority of this Act shall be applied by the company exclusively to the purpose for which the shareholders authorized such issue.
In the Bill I have the honour to lay before the House, the government has taken the precaution to make it a matter of statute that the money shall be applied to the purposes for which it was said to be necessary at the time the Order in Council was applied for.
Now, with respect to the tolls. At the time of the incorporation of the Canadian . Pacific Railway Company, railways were regulated by the Consolidated Railway Act of 1879, being 42 Victoria, chapter 9, which Act, in so far as its provisions are applicable to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and in so far as they are not inconsistent with, or contrary to the provisions of the company's charter, and save and except as is specifically provided in the charter, is incorporated with the Canadian Pacific Railway charter. The only provision in this statute which need be referred to is subsection 11 of section 17, which reads :
(11) The parliament of Canada may, from time to time, reduce the tolls upon the railway, but not without consent of the company, so as to produce less than fifteen per cent per annum profit on the capital actual# expended in its construction; nor unless, on an examination
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made by the Minister of Public Works of the amount received and expended by the company, the net income from all sources, for the year then last passed, is found to have exceeded fifteen per cent upon the capital so actually expended.
The only other legislation in existence is section 20 of schedule ' A ' of the company's Act of incorporation, 44 Victoria, chapter 1, which provides :
(20) The limit to the reduction of tolls by the parliament of Canada provided for by the eleventh subsection of the 17th section of ' The Consolidated Railway Act, 1879 ' respecting tolls, is hereby extended so that such reduction may be to such an extent that such tolls, when reduced, shall not produce less than ten per cent per annum' profit on the capital actually expended in the construction of the railway, instead of not less than fifteen per cent per annum profit, as provided by the said subsje-tion ; and so also that such reduction shall not be made unless the net income of the company, ascertained as described in said subsection, shall have exceeded ten per cent per annum instead of fifteen per cent per annum' as provided by said subsection.
And the exercise by the Governor in Council of the power of reducing the tolls of the company, as provided by the tenth subsection of said section 17 is hereby limited to the same extent with relation to the profit of the company, and to its net revenue, as to which the power of parliament to reduce tolls is limited fcy said subsection eleven as hereby ^mended.
Now. subsection 11 of section 17 of the Act of 1879 has been repealed; but I still Jiold that it must be taken as forming part of the company's charter, and must be referred to in order to understand section 20, which I have just quoted. I have gone carefully through all the legislation, and am quite satisfied that there is not now in existence any clause similar to subsection 11, and this subsection and section 20 of the charter form the only legislation which need be referred to on the subject of tolls. Subsection 11 was re-enacted by the Consolidated Railway Act of 1880, and appears there as subsection 11 of section 10, but it was not re-enacted in 1888 when the Railway Act was again consolidated. Now, the Order in Council of January 23rd of 1902, so far as it relates to the increase of capital stock, went into force as soon as it was passed, and has been acted upon by the company.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: What was the wording of that subsection 11?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I have given this with so much detail that, if hou. gentlemen will look at ' Hansard ' to-morrow, they will see what my brief really is. Subsection 11 was re-enacted, as I say, in 1886, but was not re-enacted in 1888. ' At the same time, in order to understand section 20 of schedule ' A ' of the company's Act, which refers to this section 11, it is necessary to read section 11 in conjunction with it. Now, tfiis legislation was necessary


Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.: only with respect to two points: with respect to issuing any part of this amount of capital stock at less than par-for under their charter they would have had the right to do so-and there is a restriction that the $20,000,000 shall not be issued at less than par; and then with respect to the tolls it is made a matter of special stipulation that when you come to apply section 20 for the regulation of tolls, this additional $20,000.000 shall not be taken into account. And, further, they have thought proper, at the suggestion of the Minister of the Interior, to provide that this money shall be specifically applied for the purposes for which the company say they require to have it-that Is, it shall be applied in the improvement of the property of the company.


John Graham Haggart: The company are a consenting party to this, I suppose?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Then, if I understand the minister clearly, this Bill leaves the company in the same position as they were in before being allowed to issue this twenty millions of stock and expend it upon the road. That is to say, the 10 per cent or the 15 per cent, as the case may be, which is provided in the Railway Act or in their charter, shall be only calculated on the $05,000,000 of stock as it is at the present moment?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is perfectly right.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (East York).: This Bill is a very important one. There long have been grievances in this country in regard to tolls on the Canadian Pacific Railway. This government is on record, some years ago, when the Crow's Nest Pass legislation was introduced, as favouring a principle which was in the public interest- that if the Canadian Pacific Railway were to get any further concessions from parliament they were to give concessions to the people in return. Now, legislation is introduced giving increased stock powers to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and yet the public grievances existing under the original charter are not being dealt with. These grievances are mainly two. First, there is the regulation of the rates after 10 per cent profit is earned. There is no proposition in this Bill, so far as I can gather, to deal with that. The government told us last year that it was their intention to deal with this question by proceeding to ascertain what the actual cost of the railway was, and on what amount this 10 per cent should be allowed. Are there provisions in this Bill for that being done? Here is a government that says that the transportation problem is the great problem. But what are they doing to ascertain the actual cost of this road, and so protect the public? The profit of that road, I venture to say,

is away above this 10 per cent. Their statements show it. The time has come when the freights ought to be regulated, and a law passed that the government, in the interests of the people, should ascertain what the cost of the railway was. Another grievance against the Canadian Pacific Railway is that of the exemption from taxation of their land grant. It was a very important question last session, and we were told that legislation was to be introduced, and these lands were very shortly to come under taxation. or, at least, a test case was to be made. And I believe that test is promised to be made. But that is not the way to cure this great grievance. The principle to be adopted is that recognized by the government in* the Crow's Nest Pass case-that if a company are to get concessions, they are to make concessions. But here we see things done in the old way,-the old rule is followed, and everything the company wish is being granted, but the two substantial grievances, the exemption of the company's lands and the question of the tolls based upon the actual cost of the road, are not dealt with. I now point out to the House that the government are abandoning that principle which they claimed to be in the public interest in 1897, when the Crow's Nest Pass legislation went through, and they are not talcing advantage of the opportunity offered them to procure the settlement of these two grievances which the public are labouring under. Then, as to the raising of this 820,000,000. I corftend that a great deal of the money could be raised on the bonds of the company and a great deal of it could be paid out of the current earnings. But it is all to be raised on stock, notwithstanding the provisions of this Act and notwitslitanding that it more or less endangers the power of the public to regulate the rates under this 10 per cent clause. Had the government really been in earnest in seeking to promote the interests of transportation in the country, they would have said to the company :	If you intend to
issue .$20,000,000 worth of stock, as your road is a fine road, we intend to take that stock on behalf of the people of Canada.
But we see none of these things advocated in this Bill. The public grievances are not corrected, there is no effort to correct them. There is no regulation of rates that we were promised long ago. And who were the gentlemen that howled against the rates in that awful charter of the Canadian Pacific Railway, if it was not hon. gentlemen opposite ? Now they are in power, now they have an opportunity to remove some of these grievances, especially in respect to the regulation of rates. They know the rates are wrong, and they claim, to have secured a reduction of them in connection with the Crow's Nest Pass Railway. Now was the time, not to send the question to the law courts or a special committee to ascertain the actual cost of the road, but now was the time when they should have
sat down with the directors of the company in the same way they did with the Crow's Nest Pass Company, and said : Gentlemen, we will give you your increased capital if you state to-day that you are under the 10 per cent clause. I believe they would have been prepared to say they would come under the 10 per cent clause ; and therefore the whole question of the rates on that road would have been under public regulation. And the same thing in regard to that hideous thing that exists in their charter' with regard to the land grants of the company, the patents for which are being issued now and were issued last year with enormous rapidity ; the contention is now that for 20 years hence the land grants of the company not sold should be free from taxation in the North-west Territories. Public policy should have insisted on the public being protected in these respects. But there is no promise of it in this Bill to-day, but there is an indication that even this government who made that arrangement in 1897 with the Crow's Nest Pass Railway Company, are to-day carrying out the will, and behests, and requisitions of the corporations, and doing nothing for the public.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: It is not customary to debate the principle of a Bill upon the explanation which is given by the minister who introduces the Bill ; and I think hon. gentlemen who sit upon the front bench of the opposition will agree with me that it is not conducive to clearness or to a fair and reasonable understanding of important questions, that a debate should be sprung upon the merits of a very important Bill immediately the minister who gave the explanation has sat down. I think the House will agree with me, too, that if my hon. friend was interested in a real solution of this large and important question he would have devoted his attention to making inquiries of the minister who introduced the Bill, with the object of eliciting any further information that might enable him to understand the question, and then give it more mature consideration before expressing an opinion. I may say to my hon. friend that this legislation under which he says the people of the North-west Territories are suffering, was placed upon the statute-book by his own party and not by the Liberal party. The grievances of the people in that respect have been redressed to a considerable extent by the legislation which the Minister of Justice has introduced this afternoon, pnd I would willingly challenge my hon. friend to lay his finger upon any piece of legislation that was introduced prior to the advent of this government, in which, in so few words, so many important matters were dealt with, and the grievances of the people were so effectually redressed, and the rights of the people so effectually protected as they are in the Bill which my hon. friend has just asked leave to introduce.

We had upon the statute-book the clause which stated that the tolls of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company should not be reduced until the net earnings were 10 per *cent upon the capital actually expended in the construction of the railway. Now they come along and ask us for leave to extend that capital by $20,000,000. It is not suggested that the application is not a legitimate and an honest application. I think we will all agree, however our views may vary in regard to the policy of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, that that company has now arrived at such a state of development that we need not look for any cheap huckstering or anything of that kind in connection wTith their capital. When they come forward with an application to increase their capital, we expect them to do so in a bona fide way, to get money for a bona fide purpose. There will be no question in the minds of members of this House upon that subject. They ask us to give them leave to increase their capital by $20,000,000. The first condition we make is this, that in considering the amount of capital actually expended in the construction of the railway for the purpose of applying the control which the law gives to the government in certain cases, that $20,000,000 need not be taken into consideration. So if the public get the benefit of that $20,000,000, and that sum does not add to the amount on which net earnings should be reckoned before we can apply our principle of control, can my bon. friend suggest anything in connection with our legislation for the Canadian Pacific Railway which would have placed the people in a better position in respect to the control of rates ? My hon. friend, I believe, is something of a socialist. Perhaps he would have taken the position that he did not care what the law was on that point, or what the legislation was, that he did not care what the vested rights of the stock holders and' bond holders of the Canadian Pacific Railway were, but he would simply have done as he pleased. I am bound to say, Mr. Speaker, that this government is not prepared to take that position ; but we are prepared, and I believe with the full agreement of the other side of the House-of the responsible members of the other side of the House-to give full, fair and reasonable protection to every vested right of any person who invests a dollar in the Dominion Of Canada. That does not prevent us, however, when government action is required, from taking fair and reasonable measures for the protection of the public, and I think it will be the sentiment of members on both sides of the House that we have gone in this respect as far as we honourably and legally could have gone.


William Findlay Maclean: Will the hon. gentleman say what this government have done to ascertain, in their five years of office, the actual cost of that railway ?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON.: 


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Immediately before the Order in Council was passed which provided for this particular matter being dealt with in the way I have stated, another Order in Council was passed with the consent of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and it was required that they should give their consent to the passage of that Order in Council before this Order in Council was passed. My hon. friend will learn I think with great delight, that the first Order in Council provided that an immediate reference should be taken to the courts for the purpose of determining the amount of the capital actually expended in the construction of the road, so that we might know exactly where we are in respect to the control <of rates on this railway. That was the first thing to take into consideration and that arrangement was arrived at before the Order in Council was finally passed giving the company power to increase their capital stock. I need only add that we have done something more. We have done something which, I believe, speaking subject to correction, has not been done before in the history of legislation affecting railway companies in Canada. That is to say, that we have ear-marked this money to this extent; we have explicitly provided that no less a sum than $9,000,000 of the stock to be Issued shall be expended upon rolling stock. I venture to think that the people of the North-west Territories and the people of Canada who have dealings with the company and who have felt the necessity of a very much larger amount of rolling stock being immediately provided, will look on this provision as one which will prevent a diversion of the money to any other purpose, and as evidence of the fact that the government have striven earnestly to protect the interests of the people. I do not think any further reference to my hon. friend's remarks is necessary. I would not have thought it necessary to speak at all were it not for the fact that he has taken the position, which is not a usual one, of criticising the merits of a measure upon its introduction without taking time to acquaint himself with its provisions.


John Graham Haggart: Would the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sifton) answer this question ? Are you going to proceed with the reference to the courts ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: At once.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: I just want to ask the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) a question. Before doing so, I may say that the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr Sifton), after lecturing my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Maclean) on the impropriety of discussing this measure on its introduction, has proceeded himself, to follow his example by discussing it at very consider-

able length. I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Justice what has been done in connection with the disposal of the question affecting the tax exemption of this company in the North-west Territories V X do not, at present, recollect whether legislation was passed last session in regard to it or not. If legislation was not passed it was because it was found that there would be no need of special legislation for this purpose.
I would like to ask the hon. gentleman whether this Bill deals with the question at all, and if it does not, would he be good enough to tell us what action has been taken on that question, and whether he expects that at an early date any decision of the court in regard to it will be reached ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This Bill does not in any way affect the question which has been mentioned by the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax). I may say that I expected, of course, naturally, to make a statement in reference to that subject when the estimates were up, and I have prepared a statement which I intended to make then.


Robert Laird Borden: That is quite satisfactory.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 117) further to amend the Unorganized Territories Game Preservation Act, 1894. He said :	This Bill is
not quite so formidable as its name would indicate. It contains a provision for the purpose of extending the protection which we have been giving to the wood buffalo in the North-west Territories. There are still a few small herds of wood buffalo in the Mackenzie River district, 500 or 600 or 800 miles north of Edmonton. For the last six years the law has prevented these buffalo being shot, the only persons likely to shoot them being the Indians. For the last six years we have had a mounted police patrol and the law has prevented these animals being shot, in order, if possible, to secure the preservation and increase of the herd. This Bill is for the purpose of extending the protection until 1907.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


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Mr. BOYD-by Mr. Roche-asked :
' 1. Was the reduction of the rate of interest from 6 to 5 per cent made at the request of the Manitoba government, the beneficiaries of the fund ?
2. Is it the intention of the government to amend the Act so that at least it will not apply to the sales made prior to the enactment of 1901 ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Daurier).: This question lacks something, as in its present form it is not very intelligible. I presume the hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyd) means the school lands funds.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: I. presume that the question refers to the school lands fund, and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyd) evidently had an idea in his mind which he did not express in the question. The answer to the first question would be no, and to the second question no.


I.C.R.-RESOLUTION OF WINNIPEG BOARD OF TRADE.
Mr. PUTTEE asked :: X. Has the Minister of Railways received from the Winnipeg Board of Trade a communication recommending that a ' thoroughly qualified expert in the management of railways he appointed to make a report on existing conditions, and what in his estimation would make the Intercolonial Railway a paying concern, and of the greatest benefit to the country ; and also to study and make recommendations on the fallowing alternative schemes for the consideration of the government and the people
' (a.) As to how the Intercolonial Railway could he extended so as to make it a real and permanent competitive factor affecting the greatest bulk of Canadian traffic.
' (b.) What arrangement for the granting to government might make under the present conditions, by virtue of its general powers, which would tend towards the same end as the above.
' (c.) What arrangement for the granting to other railways of running rights, management or other powers over the Intercolonial Railway would be feasible, and calculated to benefit general transportation j or what running rights over other railways should be acquired by the Intercolonial Railway, to accomplish the same purpose."
2. If yes, is the suggestion contained therein likely to be accepted and acted upon ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: The answer to the first question is yes. To the second question the answer is :	The government
has not yet had an opportunity of considering the matter.



SUPPLY-PREFERENTIAL TRADE WITHIN THE EMPIRE.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) moved that the House go again into Committee of Supply.
['I quite recognize the force of what the hon. leader of the opposition has said. My own personal inclinations have been much in that direction, but I have been restrained from doing more than I have done, largely from the fear that my efforts in that respect might not meet with the approval of the House. I have so far confined the efforts of the department largely to co-operation with the colonization societies and provincial governments, and to giving information. In addition to that, in some cases we have advertised the free grants of land and the homestead conditions in different parts of Canada. So far as the province of Ontario is concerned, I would suppose that the information with regard to the west is very complete, but in the province of Quebec, I think, perhaps, something could be done, and possibly in the maritime provinces more could be done than anywhere else, because being so far from Western Canada they are not brought into contact with our literature, and the difficulty and expense of transportation are so great that unless there is some counteracting influence, the natural movement will be to the United States. I shall give the whole subject the best consideration I can, and if any practical suggestion should be made I shall be happy to consider it.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of the Minister of Finance, House adjourned at 12.10 a.m., Friday.']
William Findlay Maclean: Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the rebuke which I have recently been subjected to in the j House, I have still the courage to get up ' and bring to the attention of the public and of this House a further matter on the

lines of the discussion which was raised here two days ago. This question is the most important that there is before the people.of Canada to-day. There is no subject of equal, importance, and as there is additional light upon it, I propose to bring that additional light to the attention of the House and of the country. I hold in my hand the New York ' Tribune ' of yesterday, dealing with the budget speech in England. The correspondent of the New York ' Tribune ' in England is a very well posted man. He is in touch with the leading authorities in England. He is in touch, 1 believe, with the ambassador of the American government to the Court of St. James, and in his despatch to that paper yesterday he uses the following words :
While the colonies will reluctantly surrender their self-governing rights, it is probable that some basis of financial contribution to Imperial defence may be reached if some form of preferential tariff be adopted by the home government. Some colonies may be willing to agree upon a common increase of five or ten per cent in tariff duties and set apart the sum thus raised for defensive purposes, if the mother country be disposed to adopt the preferential system in dealing with the colonies.
Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a statement made in an important paper, and it is based,
I believe more or less on some authority which shows that in the estimation, at least, of that correspondent, the imperial government is prepared to grant a preference to the products of the colonies provided the colonies would be prepared to join with it in defence of the empire. I contend, Sir, that in that budget which was introduced the other day in England, we would have had some arrangement made for preferential trade if the government of this country had said they were prepared to discuss the question of imperial defence. Let me read again the answer of the Canadian government to that invitation, and it is well worth reading it, and re-reading it. The first letter from Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto was of a general character, and it is dated the 27th of December last. I ask the House to ibear in mind that date. No answer apparently was ever sent by this government to that general invitation. On the 23rd of January, almost a month after an urgent telegram was sent to Lord Minto dealing with this very question, and what does this urgent telegram say. Here it is :
Copy.
Para, of cypher cable.
Confidential.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.
London, January 23, 1902.
It is proposed by His Majesty's government to take advantage of the presence of the premiers at Coronation to discuss with them the questions of political relations between the mother country and the colonies, imperial defence, commercial relations of the empire and ether matters of general interest.


William Findlay Maclean: ^ Should your ministers desire to submit definite proposal or resolutions on any of the above questions or should they wish to suggest any further subject for discussion, I should be glad to be informed of purport by cable in order that the other governments can be communicated with.
With view to proposed conference, hope your premier will be able to remain for a short time, say three weeks, after ceremony, as the guest of His Majesty's government.
Please telegraph reply. Despatch follows.
(Signed) CHAMBERLAIN.
Observe these words. The Canadian government was asked to give a speedy reply ' in order that ' the other colonial premiers might be acquainted of its contents. They were asked to telegraph that reply. But what took place V For ten days the Canadian government had this urgent cable in their possession and they never answered it, and therefore no despatch followed, as the British government said a despatch would follow. After ten days this government sent an answer by cable, and I shall read that answer to the House again. They waited ten days until 1 suppose the dissidents in the cabinet had been mollified in some way, and until some unanimity was come to. Here is their answer :
Copy-Secret.
Lord Minto to Mr. Chamberlain.
Ottawa, February 3, 1902. Referring to your despatch of the 27th December, my government accepts invitation extended to Prime Minister to attend Coronation. He expects to sail about 10th of June, accompanied by Lady Laurier, but exact date cannot yet be fixed.
Referring to the several questions mentioned in your despatch of 23rd January, the only one which in the opinion of my ministers, gives promise of useful discussion is that of the commercial relations between the various sections of the empire. The political relations now existing between the mother country and ihe great self-governing colonies, and particularly Canada, are regarded by'my ministers as entirely satisfactory, with the exception cf a few minor details, and they do not anticipate that in the varying conditions of the colonies, there can be any scheme of defence applicable to all.
In the opinion of my ministers, there is thus but a limited range of subjects upon which the contemplated conference can be productive of useful action. Nevertheless my ministers realise the desirability of taking advantage of every opportunity for the discussion by the public men of the mother country and the colonies, of questions of imperial interest, and Canada's representative will he prepared to give respectful consideration to any proposals that may be submitted by His Majesty's government or by the representatives of other colonies.
It was that one-sided answer to all these proposals that were made, that froze the heart of the imperial government, and they did not even send that despatch which was promised to follow. The British government were not in the position they hoped to

be in of getting a friendly answer from this government to tiie effect that they would come to London prepared to discuss imperial defence ; prepared to discuss imperial defence coupled with preferential trade as between the mother country and the colonies. The result is that a budget was brought down in the Imperial House of Commons putting a tax on grain and on breadstuff's, and the breadstuff's of Canada are not to- be exempt from that tax. That is the result of the action of the Canadian government. When the opportunity presented itself they neglected to say that they-were ready to discuss these questions. They refused to take the lead as the English ( Prime Minister asked them to take the lead. No aid was given by this government to the imperial ministers, and as a result the breadstuffs of Canada are taxed equally with the breadstuff's of other countries. In view of the British budget, I ask :	Are
the government prepared to-day to tell us that they will go over to England to discuss imperial defences ? I do not wish to commit the country, when I ask the government : Are they willing even to discuss that question on the 'basis of getting a trade preference ? Last night a very instructive article appeared in a newspaper published .in Montreal, and with which the Minister of Public Works is connected. The heading is :	' The Interment of Free
Trade.' The Minister of Public Works deals with this question in his paper last night, and he says among other things :
The war, the unhappy war in South Africa, has forced old free trade England to abjure her economic faith, to tax her bread to meet
the expenses of the War Office	The
speech of Sir Michael Hicks-Beach is as a funeral oration of free trade. ... A number of London newspapers have expressed regret that Sir Michael Hicks-Beach has not seen lit to propose the adoption of a preference to Canadian flour and cereals in the English market. There are other papers that think it peculiar that at the very moment when we are sending other contingents, the English government has struck a blow at our breadstuffs by imposing on them the same tax as on foreign grains.
There Is the opinion of the organ of a member of this administration who says that the funeral oration on free trade has been pronounced. He says there are papers in this country who believe the same thing, and be means his own paper, and he means a certain gentleman in the cabinet. He means to say that he regrets that when we are sending contingents to South Africa, we are not getting a preference in return therefor. And. why are we not to get a preference ? It is because of that chilling despatch which was sent by the Canadian government in reply to the invitation of the Prime Minister of Great Britain. On a former occasion the Prime Minister of Canada said that trade and war do not go together. They do go together. If there is anything that Englishmen know more than 93
another, it is that trade follows the flag. The Prime Minister of Canada on a former occasion argued


Mr. SPEAKER.: The 'hon. member has no right to refer to a previous debate.


William Findlay Maclean: I stand corrected, and I will say that the argument is being made outside of this House.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: When I call the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that he is referring to a previous debate, it is hardly fair for him to say that he is referring to what has been said outside.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: The Minister of Trade and Commerce pursued identically the same lines the other day, and he was not called to order.


William Findlay Maclean: Mr. Speaker, I bow to your decision. I see in his place the Minister of Trade and Commerce who is especially charged with the duty of looking after the welfare of this country in connection with treaties ; and I would ask him, is he prepared to tell the House to-day that, in view of England having adopted protection and having gone back to duties ou breadstuffs, he has brought that fact to the attention of his colleagues, or has made any move to have the existing commercial treaties between the mother country and foreign countries, which interfere with the project of a preferential trade arrangement between the mother country and the colonies denounced ; and is he or the Prime Minister prepared to tell the House to-day, in view of the developments of the past few days, in view of the contingents we are sending and in view of the position taken by the organ of the Minister of Public Works, that they have protested against the tax on Canadian breadstuffs or have made any effort to secure a preference for Canada ? This is the all-important question before the people of this country to-day, and I again call the attention of the House to it mainly for the purpose of giving this government an opportunity of telling the country where they are on the question, and what they intend to do in connection with this most momentous issue.



Mr. URIAH WILSON (Lennox).: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair I wish to make a few remarks on the subject of immigration. That subject has assumed very important proportions in this country, not alone because of the amount of money we spend on immigration, being nearly a half a million a year ; I believe the exact amount is $445,000. While that is a serious matter in itself, because the money comes out of the taxpayers of this country, I think there is a very much more important view to be taken of it, and that is the kind of immigrants we are getting. I was asked



by an bon. member on the other side of the House the other day to deal with something more than newspaper clippings when I came to speak on this question ; and I am going to do so to-day.
Great changes have been made in our system of immigration agents in the old country, for the reason, I presume, that the High Commissioner in London has told the department in his report that they have done about all they can do on the lines on which they are at present working, and also that we could get a great many immigrants if the government would refund to them the amount of their passage money when they arrived on this side of the water, to assist them in starting life again. I am very glad to know that the minister in other days was strongly opposed to giving any bonuses or assisted passages ; and I hope he will stick to that. I have always been opposed to giving assisted passages to immigrants, because I hold that a man who has reached the age of maturity, if his life has been such as it ought to be, should have saved enough money to pay his own passage, and if he lias not, lie certainly must have friends who would lend money to him. That being the case, I think it would be a great mistake to advance money to men who would be worthless, and who would in the long run become a burden on the public.
Immigration matters on the other side of the water have become so important that the deputy minister and Mr. White have had to leave this country and visit the old country to make arrangements in regard to immigration ; and I see that material changes have been made there. Mr. Preston's office has been moved out of the High Commissioner's office, and he has an office to himself and is placed at the head of the immigration business in Great Britain and Ireland and on the continent ; and although the deputy minister stated in the committee that Mr. Preston was subject to the High Commissioner, I notice that he reports direct to Ottawa. I also notice that every immigration agent under him has to report to him, and he forwards their reports direct to Ottawa. It used to be that the immigration agents in the old country reported to the High Commissioner, who sent their reports to Ottawa. Another change that has been made is in Ireland. I called the attention of the minister last year to the fact that we have too many paid agents in Ireland, and I see that at last he has come to the same opinion and has sent one agent to England, leaving only two paid agents in Ireland-Mr. O'Kelly and Mr. Devlin. One gets $1,800 and the other $3,000 a year. I suppose the minister, when lie explains the difference in salaries, will tell us how he came to raise the salary of Mr. Devlin $1,000 at one time. I tried to find out from Mr. Pedley, who is at the head of the immigration staff, and has


Uriah Wilson: charge of the whole immigration of this country, and who is paid only $2,500, while Mr. Devlin and Mr. Preston are each getting $3,000. It may be that the minister can give some satisfactory reason for this difference. There is another feature which I regard as quite as bad if not worse. They are appointing, if I remember rightly, about 100 immigration agents in Ireland, to be paid by commission ; so the deputy minister states. You can easily see the effect of that. It will not be a matter of interest to these agents whether the immigrants they get are good or bad. Their object will be to get as many as possible, because the more they get the more they will be paid. That course, I believe, is pursued in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. I notice in the report a letter from the Hon. G. W. Ross, which was written to the ' Loudon Times ' on the 9th of September last. Mr. Preston thought so much of it that he; copied it. into his report. Mr. Ross points out the large number of people who are leaving the British Isles and calls attention to the fact that if the mother country and the colonies united in an effort, these might be saved to the colonies instead of going to foreign countries. I think that is a matter which might well occupy the attention of the Prime Minister when he goes to the old country in June next. Of over 700,000 persons who emigrated from the United Kingdom from 1891 to 1900 only 90,000 came to Canada.
Another matter which I am obliged to bring up in this House is the interview held by Mr. Devlin with the ' Montreal Vv itness.' That interview has a peculiar history, and I think it was dealt with very unfairly by the Committee on Agriculture and Colonization. We had it read there, together with Mr. Devlin's reply, and the committee refused to have them put in the evidence. I am going to give Mr. Devlin's interview, his denial, and an affidavit from the gentleman who wrote the interview. I saw in Mr. Devlin's own hand writing two paragraphs of this interview.
It was my intention to call the attention of the House to the attacks which Mr. Devlin made upon members on this side last session, but at the beginning of the session I moved for the correspondence, and I found that the rebuke given him by the Minister of the Interior was quite sufficient and that we have not heard of any more attacks since then by that gentleman on members of this House. But after that was rejected by the committee, and I think it should have gone into the evidence, I brought it up in this House as a question, to which the hon. Minister of Finance replied, and replied very cleverly, for he can get around a corner as well as, if not better, than any of his colleagues. The question I put was :	Has the attention of the
government been called to the interview with Mr. Devlin ? The Minister of Fin-

ance replied that it had, both by the newspapers and the Agriculture Committee. My next question was whether there had been any communication with Mr. Devlin since then, and the Minister of Finance replied no, but that Mr. Devlin did not admit the correctness of the interview. That I think was a very inadequate reply to a charge so Important.
I am sorry to have to weary the House by reading this interview, but I think it is important that we should know what the facts are. This interview appeared in the Montreal ' Witness ' on the 17th January, 1902, and I might add, had this been one of the sensational papers of this country, I would have taken very little notice of the interview. The ' Witness ' is known to be a strong supporter of this government, although on general principles, once in a while it has to find fault with the present administration, but it would be impossible for any honest journal to conduct its business without doing that. Here is the interview :


Mr.  C. R.@: Devlin, Dominion Immigrant Agent, Is a follower of John Redmond.
Believes that Ireland should have a separate Parliament-Why Canada does not get the Irish Immigrant in large numbers.


Mr.   C@: Devlin', the Dominion Immigration Agent, Dublin, Ireland, has often, upon the floors of the House of Commons, and the public platforms of the country, eloquently pleaded the cause of home rule for Ireland. An Irish Canadian, he was always candid in his sympathy with those who were fighting for a separate parliament for the Irish people.
A residence in Ireland itself has but served to deepen his love for the cause. Mr. Devlin is an official of the Dominion government, but he is an enthusiastic follower of John Redmond, who is now preaching a no-rent crusade in Ireland which threatens to have far reaching consequences. But Mr. Devlin, while fulfilling his duties, also subscribes to the land league, and is heart and soul with those who desire to have separation from England.
Mr. Devlin is at present in the city stopping at the Windsor Hotel. He was asked this forenoon to say a word as to the condition of Ireland at present, more especially in regard to the acute form which the Irish agitation had recently taken-the form of an overwhelming organization, whose chief doctrine was that the people should cease to pay rent
Mr. Devlin replied by saying that it must he remembered that he was not a politician, but an official of the government who was subject to criticism, and who must be careful iu the answers which he gave. At the same time he had never concealed his opinions when in parliament, and had not changed since he went to live in Ireland.
He was a follower of John Redmond and a subscriber to the funds of the land league. He was an Irish Canadian, hut blood was thicker than water, and he did not forget that England had oppressed Ireland because the Irish were Catholics.
You are not a believer in physical force, are you Mr. Devlin ?
No, I hive no sym,a*hy for physical force at all. I am for effecting the purpose by con-93J
stitutional moans. There is no necessity for physical force in the premises.
Do you approve of the agitation of which the object is to prevent the tenant farmers of Ireland from paying rent in anj' shape or form ?
I am in sympathy with the programme mapped out by John Redmond. Here is the stand I take, I do not care who knows it :
I am in full sympathy with the national movement, and as an Irish Canadian and a Roman Catholic I see no reason why Ireland should not receive the same measure of responsible government as is enjoyed by Canada. To put the whole case in one word-before going to Ireland I was a nationalist, and since that I am now such even in a more pronounced degree.
The whole question is this, said Mr. Devlin, shall Ireland have a separate parliament ? I think she should. Others take a different view. They are entitled to their opinion. Indeed, we have frequent discussions over the matter in my office.
I would like to have the Minister of the Interior just mark the use to which the immigration office is put in Ireland. My opinion is that no officer of this government should take any part in politics on either side. I do not think that our High Commissioner has ever done so, nor do-I think that it is in the best interests of the country that Mr,i Devlin should do so :
There are those in Ireland who say there should be no legislative separation ; on the other hand, the great bulk of the people are ir. favour of a separate parliament, and I am with them in this. I have nothing to conceal as tar as my persona] views are concerned, but of course I have no desire to talk nolitics.
Do you believe, Mr. Devlin, that' the establishment of industries in the south and west of Ireland would go far towards a creation of tetter conditions ?
No doubt, this would be a feature of the case.
Is the country prosperous ?
Well, there was a good crop.
Have the farmers money in the bank ?
I have not studied the economic questions.
How are the eounty councils working ?
Very well indeed.
Do the people take much interest in the local questions which come up In the meetings.
Well, as much as they do in this country.
Mr. Devlin was asked how it was that Canada got so few Irish immigrants, the bulk of whom went to the United States.
First of all, according to Mr. Devlin, there is the question of the flag, which plays an important part with the Irishman. He does not particularly like the British flag. He does not want to go to another country where he will be under it. He goes to the United States in preference. He had no doubt that the action of Sir Wilfrid Laurier in appearing at Mr. Redmond's meeting would do much to remove the prejudice which was felt against the Dominion, while at the same time the Dominion was in no wise hurt by the act'on of the premier.
In the second place, Mr. Devlin, continued, effort should have been made thirty years ago. That effort was only made yesterday, so to say. Ninety per cent of the persons who left Ireland for the United States did so upon prepaid tickets-tickets wrhich had been purchased by

friends who had gone to the United States thirty, twenty, ten years ago. Had the Dominion made an effort thirty years ago, such passages would have been paid to Canada. In the third place, it must he remembered that Ireland had none of the aids to immigration which was so evident in England. She had only three agencies in the whole country. On the other hand, in England there was the work of the Dominion government, the work of the provincial governments, the work of the Canadian Pacic Railway. At the same time, he could say that there had been a considerable improvement, and the Dominion wTas beginning to get a fair share of Irish immigration. There had been fourteen hundred immigrants from Ireland to the Dominion in eleven months last year, this showed a decided increase over previous records.
The report of the Minister of the Interior shows only 933.
It has been said, Mr. Devlin, that there is lack of zeal on the part of the government agents, who do their work perfunctorily, and who do not stir up the interests of the people in the advantages which Canada can offer.
As I say, efforts should have commenced thirty years ago in Ireland. All is done that can be done under the circumstances.
One of the planks in the new programme of Mr. Redmond, is that the people should be taught to remain in the country. As1 you are a subscriber to the funds of the league, is your position as an immigration agent not rather incongruous. You sympathize with the desire of the league to retain the people on the soli, and yet you must urge emigration.
But I do not urge it.
No ? Then the office and the work are in the nature of a superfluity ?
Come, come, said Mr. Devlin laughing, you are a desperate interviewer, but I will define my position.
I do not urge emigration from Ireland, .and I never will. I agree that Ireland should be the homo of the Irishman, and I will be glad when the day comes when no Irishman will have to leave Ireland. I will then gladly come back to work in my own country. But we have to notice the fact that there is a large emigration from Ireland, and my aim is to secure for Canada the largest possible proportion.
Asked if the establishment of a fast Atlantic service would have a beneficial effect upon immigration, Mr. Devlin said ho would prefer not to answer the question.
In regard to his present mission, Mr. Devlin said: I am here on important matters connected with my office, and as soon as I can get them settled. I will go back. I am particularly anxious to have a Canadian exhibit at the Cork show made as good and as effective as possible, as I hope to return in two weeks.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like the Minister of the Interior when he comes to reply, if he does reply, to say whqt Mr. Devlin's position is, whether it is to get people to come to this country or to cause them to stay-in Ireland. He says he is a subscriber to the Land League, and their object is to keep alt Irishmen in Ireland. In fact, I believe they have a society which gives prizes to people in Ireland who will keep others from emigrating from that country. Now, I will read you what the committee


Uriah Wilson: call Mr. Devlin's denial. This letter was written to Mr. Pedley from Halifax. The whole letter was there, but the committee refused to read anything but this part of it and refused to let the committee itself he the judge as to what part should be taken. They allowed the superintendent of immigration to choose one paragraph and say that this was all that applied to the case. I think it was, but I do not think that it was fair to the committee to confine its choice in this way. I think that if the letter was to be produced as evidence before the committee, the whole letter should have been produced :
In regard to interviews alleged to have been given by me, I do not admit their accuracy. They took place in the Windsor Hotel, weeks ago, on my arrival when I was with my friends, and I merely answered, as a matter of politeness and courtesy to pressmen, two or three questions having no bearing on Canadian political questions.
Now, I took pains, before I got the affidavit I am about to read, to make some inquiries about the reporter who had this interview with Mr. Devlin. I inquired of the reporters of the gallery of this House, and I am confident that anybody who knows this gentleman will give him a good character. I did more when I went to Montreal I saw some gentlemen occupying high positions in newspaper work, and they said the same thing about Mr. Lutton. I will read his declaration :	.
I,	William Lutton, of the city of Montreal, in the province of Quebec, reporter for the Montreal [DOT] Witness,' do solemnly declare as follows :-
1.	That I had an interview in the city of Montreal with Mr. C. R. Devlin, Dominion Immigration Agent for Ireland, on the 17th day of January, 1902.
2.	That the account of this interview as the same was published and appears in the Montreal ' Witness * of the 17th day of January, 1902, is correct in every particular.
3.	I further declare that I have in my possession statements in writing in the handwriting of the said C. R. Devlin and written by him in my presence, of which the following are true copies
' I do not urge immigration from Ireland, and I never will. I agree that Ireland should be the home of the Irishmen, and will be glad when the day comes when no Irishman will have to leave Ireland. I will then gladly come back to work in my own country, but we have to notice the fact that there is a large immigration from Ireland, and my aim is to secure for Canada the largest possible proportion.
' I am in full sympathy with the national movement, and as an Irish Canadian, and a Roman Catholic, I see no reason why Ireland should not receive the same measure of responsible government as is enjoyed by Canada. To put the whole case in one word-before going to Ireland I was a nationalist, and that I am now even of a more pronounced degree, and I would surrender a position twice as good as that now held by me if, in order to retain it, it would be necessary to modify my opinion in this matter.'

I make this solemn declaration- conscientiously believing the same to be true, in virtue of the Act for the Supression of Voluntary Extra-Judioiail Oaths.


W. LTJTTON.
[Stage Direction]
Solemnly declared before me. at the city of Montreal, in the province of Quebec, this 4th day of April, 1902.

[Stage Direction]
A commissioner of the Superior Court of the province of Quebec for the district of
Montreal.
Now, I think that ought to settle pretty well any question as to the truthfulness of that interview. It seems to me that any man who will make such statements to the public press as Mr. Devlin has done is one for whom the government should have but very little use. Certainly he is not the kind of man whose salary they should increase, giving him a higher salary than that of the superintendent of immigration. They raised his salary on the 1st of July, 1900, just four months before the general election.
Now, having gone into that matter so far, X wish, for the benefit of the Minister of Customs, to show what they are doing now in Ireland. The hon. gentleman spoke very loudly the other night about the great work of immigration. I have been following it for some years, and 1 fail to see where they, have accomplished any great work, especially in Great Britain and Ireland. They certainly have succeeded In spending a much larger amount of money than their predecessors, and with much less reshits. I have here a table which I made up from returns given by Mr. Pedley, and I guarantee its correctness. I am perfectly willing to submit it to Mr. Pedley, who I believe knows more about this question than any man in Canada, or out of it, because he has apparently made himself the master of it. This table covers a period of nine years. I do not know whether he made a mistake in only bringing it down for nine years, or what the reason was :
I may say that in 1900 the fiscal year was changed, it used to be on the calendar year and they changed it to the fiscal year, and this is only for half a year. But you will notice that in the half year we spent in salaries $9,9-12, for printing, $4,000, or a total expenditure for the six months of $13,942. Now we got in those nine years from Ireland 7,855 people; we paid in salaries and other expenses $55,854, and for printing and bonuses $28,000, making a total of $83,854.
I said we were spending a great deal more money and getting a great many less people. If you will take the first four years, from 1893 to 1890, you will find there were 4,396 immigrants came to this country; and if you will take the next five years, you will find that only 3.457 came to this country, or a decrease of 939 persons. Still, some hon. members of the government think they are doing wonderful work in their immigration business. Then, Sir, it cost for the first four years, from 1893 to 1896, $20,616, and from 1896 to 1901 it cost $63,238. That is a difference of $42,621 to get 939 less people. Still, notwithstanding my efforts to persuade the hon. gentleman to lessen the expenses for immigration from Ireland, he still persists, and I fear he is going to persist at a faster speed this year than heretofore. But whether he does or not, I feel it my duty to call his attention to what is being done.
In a speech I made in this House a year or two ago, I stated that I believed we could get as many immigrants from Ireland if we had no agent there, more especially when things are going as they are now. Let me take the years when we had no agent in Ireland :
1896....886
1897	__751,	or	less	than	in 1896	by	1351898	__733,	or	less	than	in	1896	by	1531899	_699,	or	less	than	in	1896	by	187I960___686,	or	less	than	in	1896	by	200
Decrease in 4 years with 3 agents. 675

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\rear.	t? . Sol 3 be % ^	Number of Immigrants.	Salaries and Expenses of Agents.	Printing, Advertising, Bonus, &c.	Total cost.1892 3 	2	1,284	§ cts. 4,147 79	$ cts. 2,000 00	8 cts. 6,147 791893 4 	'	'	3	1,060	2.600 09	0,000 00	8,600 091894 5 	1	1,100	2.308 25	2,000 00	4,308 251895-6 ^ 	886	31 00	1,500 00	1,500 003	751	3,431 37	2,000 00	5,431 371897 8. 	3	731	9,274 94	3 000 00	12,274 941898 9 	3	699	10,133 74	3,000 00	13,133 741899-00. ^	3	343	9,942 02	4,000 00	13,942 621900 01	5	933	13,955 41	4,500 00	18,455 41Nine years	23	7,855	55,854 21	28,000 00	83,854 211893.. 1897..	..1,284 .. 751, or	a	decrease	of.. .	... 5331898..	.. 733, or	a	decrease	of. . .	... 5511899..	.. 699, or	a	decrease	of.. .	... 5851900..	.. 686, or	a	decrease	of.. .	... 598Decrease in 4 years 	,. 2,267
I think it is tame that the minister took a look around to see what is the matter. I do not wonder though when you look at the Auditor General's Report. I think the extravagance which is there disclosed is something that is beyond reconciling with common sense. Here is a clergyman-I do not know who he is, or where he lives, or anything about him. It makes no difference to me what denomination he belongs to. I say we should not pay such an extravagant price for his services. His salary is $100 a month, and he served six months making $600. His living expenses in Europe amounted to $533.63.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: To whom is the hon. gentleman referring ?


Uriah Wilson: To the Rev. D. A. Twomey, whose account will be found at page L-16 of the Auditor General's Report. Gabs and transfers, $52.48 ; postage, $2.57 ; railway fares, $76.18; passage to Liverpool and return, $59.80 ; tips to stewards, $24 ; wharfage, $1.22 ; travel in Canada : cabs, $24 ; fares, $48.87 ; living expenses, $115.50 ; pullmans, $34.50. This makes, for six months of this gentleman's services, an outlay of $1,655.43. I think he is a pretty expensive man for us to send as an immigration agent to Ireland to try and get people to cocme here. I believe the figures I have given are correct. If they are not, I hope the hon. minister will correct them, because I am anxious to get at the truth of this matter. There is no object that I can see in standing up and finding fault with the administration of affairs unless you are telling the truth, because I do not think a man is worth very much who stands up and misrepresents' facts. There is another gentleman, Mr. Mulvihill. He was very moderate. He was only employed three months and he only cost the country $540.85. Then, there was
John Webster, whose salary was $1,200. His living expenses were quite moderate. They were only $268.75, and the total expense in connection with his office was $2,061.62. This is not quite so bad as the case of the Rev. Mr. Twomey, whose living expenses in Canada and the old country amounted to $649.13 for six months. He must have lived pretty well, I should think. Then, we have Mr. E. O'Kelly, whose salary is $1,800, and living expenses $715.40, the total cost of this gentleman including travelling and other expenses being $3,647. There was Mr. C. R. Devlin, with a salary of $3,000, and living expenses of $515.40, the total expense in connection with him being $6,132.41. The cost of printing, advertising and bonuses in Ireland in 1901 was $4,500, making the total amount expended in Ireland in 1901 $18,455.41, and the government got for this expenditure 933 people at a cost of $19.76 per head. I think that the deputy minister, Mr. Smart, said in the committee the other day, without counting the cost in Canada, that the cost of each immigrant on the average was $6.11. I suppose this amount is given without any reference to the Canadian cost. Now, I come to a matter that I would like the hon. minister to give us some information upon. I have been of the opinion for some time that when we vote immigration salaries we should vote them in the same way as we vote anything else. Why not ? Why should we vote a lump sum ? There are only four items in the estimates for immigration. I would like to have the hon. minister tell us on whose recommendation he has raised the salaries of the agents ? It is well known that he only raises the salary of a man in his department when he gets a recommendation from his deputy minister. It is the deputy minister's business. I tried to get the deputy minister before the committee to tell us how it was done. He was as dumb as an oyster, and I hope the hon. minister will take the responsibility of telling us how this is done and why. I want to give him a list of the agents whose salaries have been raised. The list was given to the committee and it is as follows :


NAMES OF IMMIGRANT AGENTS WHOSE SALARIES WERE RAISED.
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Names.	When Appointed.	Salary.	When Raised.	Present Salary.C. vV. Speers 	March, 1897....	S 1,500	Nov. 1,1898	s 2,000J. C. Crear . .	M. V. Mclnnes	Feb. 1,1897	
10,1897.... Dec. 1,1897...	1,500 1,200	July, 1901 ... Feb. 1,1900....	1,800 1.500 1,200 1,200 2,000 600 3,000 1,200 1,800 1.500James Grieve	W. H. Rogers	M. V. Bennett	.. 1,1901.... July 1,1901.... Sept., 1900.... Tuly 1,1900.... Sept., 1899...	W. J. White. .>
Rev.   M.@: 
Uriah Wilson: migrants for that increased expenditure.

Now, Sir, I believe that these figures are correct, and if the Minister of the Interior will compare them carefully with the official documents in his department, he will find that they are correct. ,1 have other figures here but they are not altogether what I would consider complete. It appears that for a good share of the time they have not been keeping a very correct account of the number of immigrants that come in from the continent of Europe, but I will give the table if hon. gentlemen think it desirable.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Go on.


Uriah Wilson: I have here an account of the number of immigrant agents employed by the Dominion government each year on the continent of Europe, their salaries and expenses from the 1st of July, 1891 to the 30th of June, 1901 :
Number of immigrant agents employed by the Dominion government each year on the continent of Europe, their salaries and expenses from July 1, 1891, to June 30, 1901.
Y ear.	Number of Agents.	* Salaries.	Printing and other Expenses.	Total.$ cts.	8 cts.	$ cts.1801-2	3	686 51	24S 00	934 001892-3	2	825 00	620 80	1,445 801893 4	5	2,684 97	4,175 20	6,860 001894-5....	i	1,200 00	519 05	1,719 001895-6	i	1,200 00	600 00	1,800 001896-7	3	1,976 94	963 45	2,940 001897-8....	0	8,373 00	2,230 59	10,603 001898-9... .	7	6,20!) 41	2.449 81	8,659 001899-1901)..	4	4,239 69	2,463 05	6,692 001900-1	2	1,600 00	1,934 86	3,534 0010	34	28,99!) 58	16,204 S7	45,204 45
I have just one more table-one relating to immigration from the United States. One reason why I am reading these tables on this occasion is that heretofore it has been very difficult to get any starting point, to ascertain how many people have come from a particular country, and at what cost; and if we start right now, I think we shall hereafter be able to get full statements of these matters. If this method is carried out, we shall have tables in which we can get the information we desire without having to peruse all the blue-books issued from year to year by the department. Before reading this table relating to the United States, I may say that this movement was started away back in 1891-92 bv the late government, and that country was looked on as a fruitful field for immigration agents to work in. I think it was a wise move, and -I will endorse any reasonable effort made by this government to bring immigrants of the proper character from the United States, because that country to-day Mr. WILSON.
gets a great many more of the right kind of immigrants than it did in former years. I am fully persuaded that if we get two or three more good crops in the North-west, we shall have a large immigration from the United States, whether we have any agents or not. I was told by a gentleman who deals in land in that country that it was the practice of speculators to go down to the northern states with maps and talk up the land, and sometimes they got capitalists to join with them, and they became immigrant agents of a very important kind. They had a great interest in making sales, because they participated in the profits. The following is the table regarding United States agents :	[DOT]
Approximate statement showing number of immigrant agents employed by the Dominion government each year in the United States of America, from July 1, 1891, to June 30, 1901, the total amount paid each year to the said agents for salaries, and the amount spent each year for printing and other expenses by said agents as follows :
Year.	No. of Agents	Salaries.	Printing and other Expenses.	Total.S cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.1891-2	19	9,221 19	12,668 19	21,88!) 381892 3	41	22,052 41	31,105 45	53,157 861893-4	33	15,614 03	30,297 75	45,911 781894-5	8	5,939 81	2,508 15	8,447 96181)5- (>	4	5,102 78	1,844 31	6,947 091896-7	12	4.880 30	6,352 09	11.232 391897-8	28	14,884 90	28,197 44	43,082 341898-9	23	16.316 35	29,277 35	45,593 701899-1900..	16	15,252 02	21,988 15	40,240 17900-1	27	18,957 98	30,161 12	49,119 0010	211	128,221 77	197,400 00	325,621 77


Mr. SPROULE.: And commission agents besides ?


Uriah Wilson: Well, they go up into the hundreds. I did not take into account the commission agents, because I did not like to weary the House with masses of figures. I come now to what I consider most important and that is the manner in which the United States deals with its immigrants. About fifteen or twenty years ago, the United States found that crime was steadily increasing in that country, that the alms houses were being filled, and that the American people were being taxed enormously owing to their failure to give proper supervision to their immigrants. The United States government appointed a commission in 1888 to investigate, and I shall only read two or three brief extracts from the report of that commission. In the State of New York alone, the charities cost over $20,000,000, according to the sworn testimony of one of the witnesses. The commission found that in the older countries of Europe

there were not only societies established for the purpose of deporting the criminal classes, but the government even gave these societies grants from the public exchequer, and evidence was given to show that government officers in Germany opened the prison doors, brought the prisoners down to the steamers, and paid their passages to America. If the hon. gentleman wants to verify my statement from the report, I shall be glad to hand it to him. I can assure the hon. minister that he has moved altogether too slowly in this matter, and that we are being overrun by a class of immigrants, which the United States government will not allow into their country.
I was told that I should not give newspaper clippings, and I took the trouble to wait upon Mr. Watchorn, the principal inspector of the United States, whose territory reaches from St. John, N.B. to Saulf Ste. Marie in Michigan. He at first told me that he had no power to give the information I required. That information, he said, .was exclusively for his own government, and not for the newspapers or men who wanted to use it for their own purposes. But he told me that if I would apply to the department at Washington, I would no doubt get what I wanted. I forgot to mention that my attention was first called to this matter by the Montreal ' Star ' which, in its issue of the 22nd March, had a graphic description of the kind of people rejected. If any hon. gentleman has not read this article, I would be very glad to give it to him, and I assure the House that it would be well worth any one's while to read it. The following day the ' Star ' had an editorial, and people laughed at the idea of its being the truth or even near the truth. But Mr. Miller, who looked this matter up, is an energetic and a thoroughly reliable man. I wrote to Washington and was referred to Mr. Watchorn, and I got from him the following information :
United States Immigration Service,
Office of Special Immigrant Inspector, .
*	Port of Montreal, Canada,
233 St. Antoine St., April 12, 1902.
Hon. Uriah Wilson,
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir,-I desire to acknowledge receipt of your communication of the 11th instant, inclosing letter written to you by the Hon. T. V. Powderly, Commissioner-General of Immigration, Washington, D.C., and requesting me to furnish you as much information as possible, along the lines of your verbal inquiries, on the 4th instant.
The department rules, under which this office is working, do not admit of furnishing official information either to the public press, or to persons, such as yourself, who desire to obtain such information for their own use. However, lire above mentioned inclosure, suffices to indicate that my superior officers have no objection to my giving you such information as is available here, for your purpose; I therefore make the following ' statement, which I believe will
virtually cover the several points to which you gave prominence, in your list of questions :
The jurisdiction of this office extends from Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, to St. John, N.B. Officers are stationed at the following places :
Three at Sault Ste. Marie, Mich., two at Sarnia, Ont., and Port Huron, Mich., five at Windsor, Ont., and Detroit, Mich., three at. Suspension Bridge, N.Y., four at International Bridge (Port Brie, Ont., and Black Rock, N.Y.), six at Montreal, P.Q., two at Cornwall, Ont., two at Vanceboro, Me., and one at each of the following plaees^-Malone, N.Y., Alburg, Vt., Rouses Point, N.Y., St. Albans, Vt., Newport, Vt., North Stratford, N.H., Hermingford, St. Ar-mand, St. Johns, Athelstan, P.Q., St. Thomas, Port Hope, Kingston, Brockville and Prescott, Out., Lowelltown and Calais, Maine.
In addition to the foregoing, there is a United States Commissioner of Immigration at the port of entry to Canada, who has a full complement of inspectors, interpreters, matron, and physician. AH European immigrants destined to the United States are supposed to be examined by this commissioner, and if found eligible to enter the United States, are given a specially prepared certificate of admission to the United States, and it devolves upon the force of officers under my jurisdiction, 1o take up these certificates at the border etptions (copies of certificates having been surrendered at the border inclosed) which are subsequently sent to Washington for cancellation.
Before I read any further I would like to say that, in my opinion, it would be a very easy matter for our government to make an arrangement with the United States, under which all parties, irrespective of Whether they go to American or Canadian ports, should be examined. If they are paupers, crippled or insane, or have any dangerous disease, or are found to be criminals, they should be sent back. Why should we consent to admit the off-scourings of creation into this country ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Would my hon friend (Mr. Wilson) send me the letter ?	.


Uriah Wilson: I will when I get through with it, but I have not more than started it yet.
It was thought that the establishment of a United States commission at the Canadian port of entry would suffice to reject ail undesirable applicants for admission to the United States, as it is done at United States ports, but it transpired that very large numbers of immigrants intending to go to the United States, manifested themselves as Canadian passengers, and thus avoided the inspection of a United States force at _a Canadian port, and subsequently resumed "their journey from their temporary abode, in Canada, to their original destination. Therefore other methods had to he adopted, to cope with this phase of the situation, hence the increase of the border force from a comparatively small number of inspectors, to the present force of forty-four.
Now. that is what our laws are doing for the United States. And, indeed, they are doing a good deal worse. It is a small matter to take a man's money, but it is a very serious matter to expose him to the risks

of associating with these families and others whom he meets. Though the United States are spending $100,000 a year on that service, they are not taxing their own people for it, but are making the immigrants or the steamship companies pay all this money. They are charging one dollar a head for every immigrant that enters their country, and there is a Bill before congress to increase the head-tax to $1.50. I believe that Bill will become law. The Minister of the Interior introduced a Bill in this House last night with reference to this matter. And I would advise him-if he thinks my advice of any value-to see the Bill that is now before congress before he presses forward his own. For, if he would reach an understanding with the people on the other side of the line we would save money and also save ourselves the annoyance of getting a lot of people who are of no use to anybody. I saw a man who came to Halifax, and wanted to go to New York. He was a little bit of a fellow. He had been unfortunate and lost one eye, the other eye was badly affected with trachoma. The United States officials rejected him. But he got hold of some society, and they gave him money enough to go to Niagara, and there they sent him back. They do not mince matters when any one tries to steal into that country when he has no certificate, and who is not a proper person to be admitted. They arrested him and put him on board a ship, and if they have to pay his way back they do so. But we ought not to do that. If any ship that brings people who are not fit immigrants, to this country, that ship ought to be obliged to take them back whence they came. I may be told that that is an extreme view, but perhaps I am a little extreme in some things.
It is incumbent upon all the border inspectors to demand a certificate of admission issued by the commissioner at the port -of entry, as a condition precedent to lawful admission. All alien immigrants minus said certificate of admission, are subject to detention, and rigidex-amination at the border, at the following places :-Sault Ste. Marie, Port Huron, Detroit, Niagara Falls and Montreal.
There are just a few places, you will notice, and, no matter where these immigrants come from they are sent to one of these places. I think Mr. Watchhorn is a first-class officer for the position. While he is courteous, he is firm, and tells them in very plain language what he thinks about them.
If an immigrant minus a certificate of admission, attempts to enter the United States at any other border station, it is imperatively necessary that the inspector on duty at such place shall return him to one or other of the aforementioned stations.
You will observe from the last report of the Commissioner General of Immigration, that only six persons were rejected along the Canadian border because they were suffering from loathsome contagious diseases. Investigations made by the Bureau in Europe, disclosed the fact that a tremenduous discrepancy was re-


Uriah Wilson: presented, in those known to have emigrated from Europe to the United States via Canada, and those actually rejected at the border.
This discrepancy led to still further investigations, which together with the above-mentioned facts, resulted in the present somewhat rigorous system of border Inspection. The present system was inaugurated on September 1st, 1901, since which time, at all points of this jurisdiction, they have been rejected for various causes, more than one thousand European immigrants

Now, these immigrants were rejected because they were not fit to be citizens of the United States. Somebody said they were not fit mentally, morally, physically, or financially. I do not think that anybody in this country wants to be hard on a poor unfortunate. But I think, at the same time, that the country that has these unfortunates is much more bound to take care of them than are we in Canada.
-'and while some of them were rejected because of their total destitution, a very large majority of them have been rejected because they were suffering from loathsome contagious diseases, notably trachoma, a dangerous affection of the eye, -and favus, a loathsome affection of the scalp. Both these diseases are born of filth, and yield favourably to treatment, only when taken in their earliest stages.
You will observe, on page 34 of the Commissioners General's Report, that the Increase of immigration through Canada to the United States, from 1896 to 1990, has been very heavy, and is in fact very much in excess of what these figures indicate.
I think your official records will bear out the statement, that for the year endpd^June 30th, 1901, approximately fifty thousand immigrants arrived at Canadian seaports, twenty-four thousand destined for the United States, which leaves the inference to be drawn, that twenty-six thousand remained in Canada, but these figures are totally misleading, because of the twenty-six thousand credited to Canada, for the time specified, no less than three hundred per month were given certificates of admission to the United States, in Montreal alone, within thirty days of their arrival at a Canadian port. I would like to know now what the minister thinks of that, or what his deputy or what the superintendent of immigration thinks of it. If within thirty days of their landing' in Canada about four thousand people, of their own motion went to the United States, who had to be able to pass a most rigid examination-these people having been hilled for Canada originally-what would it be if we take the whole country over ? It does seem to me that It bears out pretty well the statement that I made two years ago. My hon. friend from Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) and some other hon. members and myself, went into a careful analysis of the immigration from the various countries, and we could not satisfy ourselves that we got more than 26,000, although we were reported to have got 44,000.
Assuming that a like ratio of admissions were made at other border stations (not at all an unreasonable assumption), it will be seen that more than half of the European immigration

credited to Canada has proceeded to the United States within thirty days after arrival, and there exists no doubt in my mind but a very large proportion of the other half have likewise proceeded to the States at more or less subsequent dates.
This is what Mr. Watchorn says, and I will show you the document I saw him sign myself.
I cannot better illustrate to you the difficulties under which we are labouring than to cite to you the fact that only this very day we .have had to send to New York, under a strong escort, under arrest by authority of warrants issued by the Secretary of the Treasury, fourteen immigrants suffering from favus and trachoma, who landed on the 31st of March last at St. John, N.B., all of whom are credited to Canada, but who, as you observe, are regarded as unfit for domicile in the United States (and who evidently did not wish to remain in Canada, despite their having been manifested thereto) .that they are being placed on board-steamers in New York harbour to-day and sent back to the country whence they came, at the expense of the United States government.
I saw the telegram saying that they had been safely put on board the steamship, and I would be very glad if the others to whom objection was made were put on board another steamship and carried back to the countries from which they came.
In addition to these fourteen sent to New York we have rejected forty-one other perspns similarly afflicted who were carried on the ship at the same time, but the latter forty-one, not having surreptitiously gone over the border, have been returned to various places in Canada -notably Windsor, Hamilton, Toronto and Montreal, where, so far as I know, they now are.
I am going to read all this letter for the reason that this gentleman says he takes no part whatever in Canadian politics, and he does not want one party to make any capital out of it against another party. He had no objection to the facts being given, but he did not want it to be supposed that he wished to favour one side more than another. Therefore I want to read this last part of the letter, although it does not appear to concern the immigration business ; but I am doing exactly what he expected me to do.
The same spirit that prompted me to be reluctant to comply with your request for information on the 4th instant, influences me to desire to avoid the very appearance of criticising cr attempting to criticise the way in which your honorable government sees fit to conduct its affairs, and I do not wish you to construe anything herein stated as casting any reflections on any person or persons whatsoever connected with your government. I give you the information for what it is worth, and venture to express the hope that, ere long, we shall find that your government, in its wisdom, has decided to exclude from Canada all persons suffering from loathsome, contagious diseases, and who are otherwise obviously and unmistakably subjects only of charity, public or private.	.
It has been found in the United States that as efforts have been put forth to exclude the
vicious, the diseased and the burdensome, in contrastive proportion, efforts have been increased on the part of the healthy, strong, vigorous, and desirable classes, to enter the United States.
HopiDg that what I have herein stated may In some measure serve the purpose of enlightening you and others through you who desire to become more or less familiar with the subject.
I remain, yours very respectfully,


ROBERT WATCHORN,
[Stage Direction]
. Special Immigrant Inspector.
Now I think I have fully complied with the promise I made in the beginning, that the proofs of my statements should be as nearly as possible official. This gentleman is in a position to know all about the people who are coming in to this country, because, as I said before, he is in charge of the whole force of inspectors from St. John, New Brunswick, to Sault Ste. Marie, in the west. I hope the minister will carefully consider not only the enormous amounts of money we are spending on immigration, but whether it would not be worth while to put a head tax upon steamship companies bringing immigrants to this country. Somebody said to me a while ago :	You don't
have to send immigrants to the Yukon, you can hardly keep them out. And my opinion is that if we have two or three more good seasons in Manitoba and the North-west we will have very little trouble in filling up that country.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: The subject which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) has brought to the attention of the House will, I presume, be admitted to be of sufficient importance to justify an ample discussion, in order that the House may be as fully informed as possible respecting the work of the Immigration Department, and that the department may have an opportunity of listening to suggestions made from both sides of the House as to the manner in which the department may improve its methods. I had a good deal to do with immigration for some years. For four years before I became a member of this government I had much to do with matters relating to immigration in connection with the Manitoba government, and in many other ways, although that subject was not specially under my jurisdiction.
I have necessarily devoted a very considerable amount of attention to the subject, and I have had an opportunity of informing myself as to the method of carrying on the work to be pursued. I can find no fault with the criticisms -Which the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) has addressed to the House as to the conduct of the department, but, when I say that I do not say that in every respect I agree with him. I desire to find no fault either as to the method or spirit in which he has performed the task of criticising the work of the department. I am quite satisfied that an examination of the work of the department, con-


Uriah Wilson: I understand that Mr. Devlin, when he was appointed, was in charge of the immigration business in Ireland. Now, I understand that he has been reduced to the position of an ordinary immigration agent, that he has nothing to do with any other agent and that he has to report to Mr. Preston. Will the hon. minister tell us whether that is so ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no substantial change in the position which Mr. Devlin occupies now as compared with the position that he occupied before. The Deputy Minister of the Interior has lately been in the old country and he has made recommendations in regard to the method in which the work shall be carried on, but, to-all intents and purposes, so far as the practical carrying on of the work is concerned, the work of Mr. Devlin

is just what it was before. The London office has always had general supervision of the work in Ireland and the British isles generally, and the London office will continue to supervise that work. But what I was saying was, that, so far as Mr. Devlin's personality is concerned, I do not think anybody who knows him will dispute the fact that if we were to look out for a man who would be competent to make a success of the work in Ireland, Mr. Devlin is the man that any person in this House would select for the work. I know that there are gentlemen on the other side of the House, and there are gentlemen on this side of the House too, who upon certain subjects entertain different opininons from those held by Mr. Devlin as to


Uriah Wilson: I did not discuss Mr. Devlin's ability. So far as he was concerned I only discussed his indiscretion in giving that interview.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: My hon. friend (Mr. Wilson) must permit me to say something he did not say. My hon. friend was discussing the question of Mr. Devlin's salary, and that rendered it incumbent on me to discuss Mr. Devlin's ability to earn his salary. While we all recognize Mr. Devlin's ability and capacity- and I do not think that any one however violently prejudiced he may be against his opinions, will dispute his ability-I know it to be a fact that there are gentlemen on both sides of the House who have very violent differences of opinion with Mr. Devlin in regard to certain questions. I wish to say that so far as the question is concerned as to whether Mr. Devlin sympathizes with Mr. Redmond's political opinions or with the political opinions of Col. Saunderson the noted fire eater from Ulster who occupies a position directly opposite to that of Mr. Redmond


Samuel Hughes: Will the minister allow me to correct him, Col. Saunderson is not a fire eater, and he represents the city of Glasgow and he lives in Glasgow.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: If he is not a fire eater I beg his pardon.


Samuel Hughes: Col. Saunderson is a gentleman Sir ; a most distinguished gentleman.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: Well, I will speak in general terms and I will say ' any fire eater.' However, I may tell the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes) that my idea of Col. Saunderson being a fire eater arose from the fact that the last time I saw his name mentioned it was in connection with a free fight in which the two sides were represented.


Samuel Hughes: Yes, and he won.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: That gave rise to a slight impression in my mind that Col. Saunderson might be a fire eater.


Samuel Hughes: He stood up for his rights.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: However, that may be, what I desire to say is that so far as Mr. Devlin's opinions upon the subject of home rule for Ireland or the Nationalist question in Ireland are concerned, they do not concern either myself or the officers of the department particularly, and I am bound to say that I do not see why they should. There may be agents, and there will possibly be agents in the Department of the Interior scattered over various countries, who at times may be guilty of what may be regarded as political indiscretion which it would be quite impossible for any minister to prevent taking place. I do not know but what perhaps we might better leave Mr. Devlin to decide whether it is judicious for him to entertain opinions of a strong character upon political questions, so long as he does not do anything offensive to the government of the country in which he is doing his work. It appears to me that is the limit we ought to place upon the expression of political opinions. So long as Mr. Devlin does not make himself offensive to the government of the country in which he is working, I do not think we need concern ourselves particularly about his political views.
I venture however to say that if it were thought that Mr. Devlin was not a Nationalist in that part of the country in which he is doing his work, his usefulness would be largely gone, and therefore we cannot find fault witht him for at least allowing the people to believe that he entertains that political faith.
As to the effect of Mr. Devlin's tvork I shall quote a piece of testimony, and that is all I shall say on that phase of the question. I am not going to ask the House to take my own opinion or the opinion of any officer of the Department of Interior, nor even the opinion of any member of the Liberal party, but I shall quote the opinion of a gentleman who is a member of the same political party as our friends opposite, and who, I think is very competent to give an opinion on this subject. If the members of the House will look at the Ottawa ' Journal ' of March 31st, they will there find a leter signed ' J. J.,' headed ' Mr. Devlin and Irish emigration.' Now ' J. J.' are the initials of the name of the writer, and I have the permission of the editor of the Ottawa ' Journal ' to state what the name is. I knew the name of the writer at any rate, but I did not desire to disclose it without authority. The name of the person who wrote that letter to the Ottawa ' Journal ' is Mr. James Johnson, a gentleman who corresponds in various parts of

the British Isles, for a number of Canadian newspapers.


Uriah Wilson: Who is that ?


Samuel Hughes: Jimmie Johnson.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: Mr. Johnson was formerly editor of the Kingston ' News ' and later on the editor of the Ottawa ' Citizen.' He was an intimate friend of the late Sir John Macdonald, and an active and aggressive member of the Conservative party, so that I cannot be accused of quoting the evidence of a person who has any prejudice in favour of the present government. I shall not trouble the House by reading all of this long letter which extends over a column. It will be found in the Ottawa * Journal ' of March 31st of this year. I will read a portion of it which I think will convince the House that they must not be mislead into taking an adverse view of Mr. Devlin's course, by the separated extracts from his statements which have been placed before the House by my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson). Mr. Johnson, first of all, discusses the condition of affairs in Ireland. Referring to the statement as made by Mr. Devlin that he did not urge people to leave Ireland, Mr. Johnson points out that this statement is quite consistent with Mr. Devlin doing effective work. The condition of the people of Ireland is that large numbers are emigrating. It is therefore not necessary for any one to urge people to leave Ireland and if Mr. Devlin did so it would be unpopular, and he would array against himself very influential classes of the community. Mr. Johnson points out, that knowing the fact that large numbers were certain to leave Ireland the true position for Mr. Devlin to take is to induce those who are leaving to direct their course to Canada. That is exactly what Mr. Devlin is doing.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.: Mr. Johnson goes on to write as follows
Irishmen, of all classes, will emigrate ; millions have done so, and the percentage of them who regret their action is infinitesimally small. As (if I remember rightly) I remarked in a letter from Ireland some time ago, Mr. Devlin's attitude is this : He addresses the countrymen of his forefathers and says to them : 1 I do not urge you to leave Ireland ; I do not want a man or woman who thinks he or she can get along well enough at home to pull up his or her stakes and to bid farewell, probably for ever, to the land of your birth, to which you are attached by so many natural ties. If, however, you have resolved upon seeking an existence in a new land-if you are determined upon trying your fortune elsewhere. I come to you as the representative of a government which can offer you terms of settlement as satisfactory as those to be obtained in any portion of the habitable globe. Canada is a country of vast extent, of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
unlimited personal freedom,of great possibilities-a country whose inhabitants can boast of its health-promoting and invigorating climate, of magnificent scenery, unparalleled in the world ; of great lakes and noble rivers ; of natural resources which are rich and varied and practically inexhaustible ; of a system of government unequalled in it3 advantages in the general interests of the people ; of educational advantages within the reach of all ; a country where, as the result of industrious perseverance and frugality of living, a man may, within a reasonably short time become, in the most absolute sense his own landlord-the owner not only of the house in which he lives, but of the land upon which it is built.' Such, I understand, is Mr. Devlin's attitude ; and can it be successfully challenged ? I do not think so. And, in my humble opinion it is perfectly consistent with the declaration, * I do not urge Irishmen to leave Ireland.'
Some bon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that I can offer no more satisfactory evidence, than this, from a gentleman of the same political faith as our friends opposite, a correspondent of Conservative papers, who is in England at the present time, who has been all over the ground, and who feels compelled to express his opinion that Mr. Devlin's attitude cannot be successfully challenged.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Might I ask the hon. gentleman one question ? I understood him to say that he did not consider Mr. Devlin's statement, that he would never advise immigrants to leave Ireland, inconsistent witli his duty as an immigration agent. Does he regard it as consistent with Mr. Devlin's duty to belong to the National Land League and ta give subscriptions to it-a body which advises the people not to leave Ireland ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will answer the hon. gentleman's question after S o'clock.
At six o'clock. House took recess.
After Kecess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. Speaker, when you left the Chair, at 6 o'clock, I had devoted some attention to the remarks whicli were made by the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) in regard to the work of Mr. Devlin in Ireland. I think I had said practically all that I desired to say on that subject, except, in reply to the hon. member who interrogated me at 6 o'clock, that I do not think it is possible or desirable for the government to attempt to make inquisitorial examination Into the opinions of men in the civil service. We have Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants, French Catholics and French Protestants, English Catholics and English Protestants in the government service. They do not agree on all subjects either political or religious, and in a country like Canada I do not think it

is desirable for us to undertake to scrutinize too closely the opinions arrived at to some extent from the nationality of the individual. Our friends the Irish Catholics will entertain opinions on _the subject of home rule for Ireland as long as they see fit to do it, and no opinion that may be expressed to the contrary by any other portion of the community is likely to affect those opinions. It is quite true, we have not secured a large immigration from Ireland ; but I have not thought it desirable materially to change the position there, except to withdraw one of our agents on the report of the deputy minister. We now 'have one agent there in addition to Mr. Devlin, the third agent, Mr. Webster, having been taken from Dublin and sent to England to be attached to the High Commissioner's office ; and he is now in this country in charge of a party of British immigrants who have lately come out.
With regard to the increase to Mr. Devlin's salary, that was made on my own motion, on Mr. Devlin's application to me, repeated several times, and I am quite prepared to take the responsibility of it ; and I do not think that the House, particularly those members who are acquainted with Mr. Devlin, will say that the salary he receives is out of proportion to his ability and the energy he brings to the work in which he is engaged.
With regard to the attitude of the non. member for Lennox as to the number of immigrants we get from Ireland, I can only say that while it may be quite possible for him to pick out the year 1896, in which no agent was stationed in Ireland, and to say that because we got so many immigrants in that year, therefore the agents who have been stationed there have done nothing, and that we would get as many immigrants if there were no agents in Ireland, if the hon. gentleman had any acquaintance with immigration work he would know that such is not the case. We would get a certain number of immigrants from the British Isles if we had no agents there at all ; but the number would dwindle very largely. The general rule of immigration work is that we get immigrants just in proportion as our efforts are vigorous or otherwise. There is no rule more clear, as is shown by the results of the past five years, than that just as soon as you stop spending money and making efforts the number of immigrants you receive from any special section falls off. Local circumstances may control in some cases and cause a slight variation from this rule ; but the general rule unquestionably holds good.
Respecting the criticism of my hon. friend as to the form of the statements prepared by the Department of Immigration. I can only say that if my hon. friend will confer with the leader of the opposition, and take the responsibility of making any request respecting that matter, I will consider it very carefully, and do the best I can to meet
the wishes of hon. gentlemen opposite in that respect.
Just a few words with regard to another question which my hon. friend brought up, and which has been brought up in other places and at other times ; that is, the question which is to some extent dealt with by the Bill I had the honour of introducing yesterday-the question whether it is or is not true that Canada is being over run by immigrants of an undesirable character, persons of criminal antecedents and tendencies, and persons suffering from diseases of a malignant type. I can say at once to the House that there is no foundation whatever for that statement. It has grown out of a few trifling circumstances ; it has been magnified by a certain portion of the press ; and for reasons which interested persons entertain and are influenced by ; but as a matter of fact it is not worthy of discussion in this place. The circumstances are of the most trifling description. The position at the present time is this. A large number of the agents which the United States Immigration Department keeps in office along the line of the Canadian frontier are not kept there for the purpose of preventing people going from Canada to the United States because they are suffering from diseases or because they are undesirable immigrants.	'
They are kept there for the purpose of enforcing the Alien Labour law, and it might happen in an odd case that some person, diseased or deformed, who attempted to cross the boundary, might be stopped. But they are not there for that purpose, and there is no occasion of that kind sufficiently general to require any attention whatever on our part. What we do require is to keep close watch on the people coming to our shores from foreign countries. The inspection of these people is made at Quebec, Halifax and St. John. 1 None is required at Montreal, because they are landed at Quebec and inspected before being sent forward. The United States department has officers and medical inspectors at these three places-Quebec, Halifax and St. John. Inspections are made there by the American officers, and our officials know every person who is rejected by them. It is all done within a few yards of where our officers are stationed, so that they know every person rejected. To show the wild statements made sometimes in the press, let me refer to the report, which was published not long ago, that there were over 200 diseased persons in the hospitals at Montreal who had landed there on their way to the United States and had been stopped by the American officers and thrown on our community. That was a Serious statement and it received attention. I took the trouble to have an investigation, and I found that in Montreal the medical superintendent of the Notre Dame Hospital reported that in January there were two im-

migrants admitted to his hospital, in February two, and in March six. The medical superintendent of the Royal Victoria reported that there had not been a sick or diseased immigrant admitted there during the past three months. The Montreal General Hospital reported that there were not at present any diseased immigrant patients in the hospital, nor had there been any within the past three months. The Hotel Dieu reported that during the past three months there were seven patients in that hospital, some of whom might be classed as immigrants, but their diseases were of the most trifling character, and nearly all were discharged as cured. As a matter of fact, out of 25,000 people who came to Canada and landed at the three ports I have mentioned, on their way to the United States, 132 were rejected by the American commissioners, and out of these 132 there are 39 in Canada at present. Of these 39, 21 are Germans who were rejected for a most trifling and absurd reason. They were rejected because some slight disease had broken out among the people. Our medical examiner declared that there was no reason why they should not be allowed to remain in Canada, and they were sent to the North-west and are there now. They were of a fairly good class and quite desirable as immigrants. That leaves 18 out of the 39, of wihom seven or eight are at St. John awaiting deportation, as soon as the Act is passed which I have introduced, so that the House will see that the wild statement I have referred to is entirely without foundation.
I have a copy of the interview with Mr. Watchorn, the special inspector of the United States government, which was given to the Montreal ' Star.' I shall not criticise that interview in detail, further than to say there is nothing in it which would cause me to qualify the statements I have made in any way. It will easily be understood that men stationed as officers along the Canadian frontier line are desirous to show their government that they have a great deal to do, as otherwise their offices would be abolished, and we may therefore look constantly for indications in the press that these gentlemen are extremely busy.
As regards the suggestion that' there should be an arrangement between the two governments respecting persons untit to be admitted to Canada, that arrangement now exists and is being carried out as completely as possible, and when the Act' I have introduced is on the statute-book, we will have the power to deport unsatisfactory immigrants which we cannot well do now. The only thing necessary to enable us to carry out the arrangement with absolute perfection is the power to deport immigrants rejected alike by our American commissioners and our own officers. As soon as we have that power, it will be exercised. This question has only arisen during the past year, and only within three or


Clifford Sifton: four mouths has our attention been called to the necessity of legislation of that kind. That is all I need say upon the examination of the immigrants as they enter Canada.
I think it might be well for me to indicate the general scope of the work of the immigration branch. We spend over half a million dollars a year for the purpose of promoting this work. At present in Canada our work consists in receiving immigrants at the ocean ports. We have large accommodation sheds at Halifax, and commodious quarters at St. John and Quebec, and officers, matrons and medical attendants where necessary. In some places the quarantine officer does the medical work. At these places we receive immigrants and have every facility for making a proper examination and seeing everything is done which is required. We have also an office in Montreal, and in addition we give a grant to the immigration society in Montreal, which does a very valuable work in connection with looking after women who come out as immigrants and who are, for the time being, homeless or in need of assistance or protection. In the North-west, we have a staff at Winnipeg and officers stationed throughout the various parts of the country. The intention of the department is that every person who is shipped forward and reports at the Winnipeg office shall be taken care of as early as possible, and every effort made to keep track of that person until he is actually located on land and becomes a bona fide settler. That work differentiates our system very clearly from that followed in former years. The result of my residence for many years in the North-west convinces me that the reason for the failure of immigration work by the late government, was that when these people got to Winnipeg they were simply dumped out and left to take care of themselves. I am not adverting to that for the purpose of attacking or criticising the late government, but am simply pointing out what everybody in the west knows to be the ease. One of the first things I did was to organize a staff for that purpose. My hon. 'friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) was put in charge as immigration commissioner, and until he became a candidate for a seat in this House, he performed that work with great energy and capacity, as is universally recognized by both political parties and citizens generally in the North-west. The result of the change was that instead of poor immigrants, but well deserving enough and willing enough to work, but lacking direction and knowledge of the country, being thrown on the community, those people were looked after and provided for, and care was exercised over them the first three months, in which time they became self-sustaining, and in nearly every case settled down and became self-supp'orting citizens. We practically have no trouble in the west in regard to taking care of our immigrants. The system has been thor-

ouglily worked out, the officers understand their business, and the work goes along with great regularity. Consequently, we are practically free from annoyances and difficulties which my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) had to contend with during the earlier years when he took charge of it.
We have In Ireland, two agents, in Wales one, in England five, in Scotland one, on the continent of Eur ope one, and in the United States twenty. That is to say, we have in the United States twenty salaried officers and agents, besides about two hundred and fifty local agents who are paid entirely by commission. That gives the House a general idea of the scope of the work and the places where the work is done. The only material additions to that summary which I require to give is with regard to the continent of Europe. We are not allowed there to carry on openly an immigration propaganda. But we have an arrangement with what is known as the North Atlantic Transportation Company-1 think that is the name, though I may not have it technically accurate-under which the bonuses formerly paid to steamship companies are paid to that company. The company is an association of steamship agents, booking agents, who have been long in the business of booking passengers from the continent of Europe, and who understand the business far better than any government officer could. We pay the bonus to them on satisfactory evidence being furnished that the immigrants have become bona fide settlers of Canada. We have had a contract with the company for the last year or two, and it has lately .been renewed. They are men of wealth and substance and standing in the business they follow, and the relations of the department with them have been of an extremely satisfactory character.
Now, just a few words with regard to the results of the work. In the first place, I think hon. members who have heard the discussions that have taken place on this subject in past years will bear me out in saying I have not been excessively sanguine in the remarks I have, made on this subject. I have not sought to give the House the idea that we were entitled to claim any wonderful amount of credit for the work we were doing. Nor have I sought to overdraw the success of the efforts we were making. But I have indicated to the House from time to time the great difficulty under which the work was carried on, and have tried to point'out the systematic and persistent effort that is required if the work is to be successful. When I took charge some five years ago, it was admitted between the Prime Minister and myself when we discussed the subject-and time has not changed the opinion of either of us, 1 fancy-that the successful prosecution of the work of the immigration branch was one of the most important things, if not
the most important thing the government of Canada had to deal with. It was thought and I think present circumstances indicate the truth of it, that there was no line of expenditure that would produce for the people of Canada more desirable and satisfactory results than a successful immigration propaganda, resulting in the addition to our population of a large number of people who would engage in productive agricultural operations. I have no desire to waste time in recriminating or in calling special attention to the history of this work in the past. My hon. friend from Lennox has given certain statistics, some of which, perhaps, I would have given if he had not. The information is there, and it is not necessary for me to repeat it. But I do desire to point out that, at the time when the change of government took place and when we took charge of this work of The immigration department, the work carried on by our friends of the late government had proven to be an absolute failure. They did not succeed, apparently, in taking hold of this movement and carrying it to a successful conclusion. And the best proof of that is in the fact that they had themselves voluntarily reduced the amount of money they were expending in connection with the immigration operations, they had discharged their agents in various places, and the operations that were being carried on by them during the year when the change of government took place were the reverse of vigorous and showed that no great interest was being taken in this question. We had to begin and build up the work almost from the beginning. In certain parts of the work we have been extremely successful, in other parts, perhaps, not so successful. On the whole, I can say that the money expended has been well expended;
I claim that no fuoney has been expended by the government in the past five years that has produced more desirable, substantial and satisfactory results, or that will redound more to the credit and prosperity of Canada than the money expended by the immigration branch. I do not propose to enter unnecessarily into statistics upon this question. But I may say that we had, in 1890, from all sources, 1G,835 immigrants. The number has grown steadily. Last year it was, in round numbers, 50,000. I shall be very much surprised-and I am not inclined as a rule to be sanguine or to over-estimate what is going to happen-if that 50,000 does not grow to 70,000 during the present year. While, during the first two or three years of our work, the results were not so great, perhaps, as we might have hoped, it was not unreasonable that such would be the case. Let me point out some of the difficulties under which we labour. My hon. friend from Lennox has said that he'would be prejjared to back the government in any reasonable expenditure to get desirable immigrants from the United States. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that when we began



our work in the spring of 1897, in the states of Minnesota and Dakota, we were faced by the fact that the farmers in the southern portion of the United States did not believe that we could raise wheat in Manitoba or the North-west Territories. Their ignorance of the situation, their ignorance of our country was so dense as to be almost incredible. To overcome that, we had to adopt every means we could think of- means that, necessarily, were very expensive. The first thing we did was to send agents to the fall fairs throughout the southern portions of Minnesota and Dakota, and also in parts of Iowa and other western [DOT]states, with exhibits of farm produce. These men took such things as grain in the sheaf and vegetables of all kinds and exhibited them at these fairs, advertised their exhibits in the local papers and induced people to come and see them. In this way we got many to understand what kind of a country it was we were inviting the people to come to. We found that by this means we accomplished something. But we found we had to do something more radical than that, and we adopted the following means : We found that the editors of the papers in the western states had state editorial associations, and that those associations were in the habit every year of taking pleasure trips through various parts of the country, and we utilized that fact by inviting these state editorial associations to take their pleasure trip through the western portion of Canada. We secured transportation for these associations over the Canadian Pacific Railway and took them through from Winnipeg to the Pacific coast. We did this three years in succession, and we saw while they were on the trip that they enjoyed themselves as well as possible. The expense was not very great, the visitors were accorded a hearty reception at the hands of the people along the line, and they saw the country under the most favourable circumstances. They were quite ready to accede to our request, when they went back home, that each editor should write a fair and reasonable account of what he had seen in western Canada. The House will understand that the result of that policy being followed respecting three or four of the great western states, and the distribution of literature favourable to Canada, and descriptive of western Canada, was entirely to change the sentiment of tl^p rural classes in those states. The result is shown in the growing figures of immigration which we have received from those states. We started in the first year with an American immigration in 1897, of 712 ; in 1898,- of 9,119 ; in 1899, of 11,945 ; in 1900, of 15,500 ; in 1901, of 17,987. I do not think it is possible that we should have less than from 25,000 to
30,000	this year, and gentlemen who are in a better position to make an estimate than I am put the figures considerably higher. So it will be seen that for the purpose of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
making known the resources, not only of western Canada, but of all Canada, through the western states where there is an agricultural class who are ideal settlers for Canada, the money we have spent and the efforts we have made have proved to be almost phenomenally successful and satisfactory.
Before I speak more upon that point, I am going to give a few figures to show the results of the policy which has been carried on. I have already said that the total number of immigrants who have gone iu there rose from 16,835 in 1896, to about 50,000 last year. During the first three mouths of this year, to the 31st of March, we have reported over 10,000 immigrants through the Winnipeg office; the Winnipeg office keeps track of all the immigrants who go into Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Last year during the same period, from the 1st of January to the 31st of March, the number was 5,800 ; so that this year we have almost doubled the record of last year. The House will see that I am within the mark when I say that as against the
50,000	last year we are very likely to have not less than 70,000 this year.
The statement is also made that the immigrants we are receiving are mostly foreigners of a doubtful class, and it may be interesting to give some figures in that connection to show what the facts are. Last year, out of 49,000 immigrants that we received, 11,810 were British, 17,983 were from the United States, 1,750 were Scandinavians, 984 were Germans, the rest were miscellaneous nationalities from the continent. Now let it be remembered that all these immigrants passed through the hands of our officers, who know exactly to what class these people belong. I am therefore quite justified in saying that there is no foundation for the statement that these people are not of a class that are likely to become good settlers and good citizens of Canada. Apart altogether from that opinion which I express, the House will see that in round numbers 30,000 out of 50,000 were British and Americans.
The question of the cost of the immigrants is one respecting which the House may not have consulted the report of the department, and I will mention the figures, which can be found in the annual report. The cost of immigrants from the continent last year was $2.65 per head ; the British immigrants cost $9.58 per head ; the United States immigrants cost $7.96 per head ; the average per capita was $6.07; including the expenditure in Canada for looking after them, the total was $8.34 per head. Now if lion, gentlemen have paid much attention to the question of populating vacant lands and colonizing generally, they will know that these figures are small. The experience of land companies in the western states, and of : railway companies generally has been that 1 on an average-I think my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary), who has had a

good deal of experience In this line will confirm what I say-on an average each head of a family who has located upon railway companies' land has cost the land company about $50. As against that we are able to show that our expenditure with respect to immigrants that we have received is about $8.34 per head, or allowing four to a family, about $35 per head of a family.
Now as to the actual results which have followed in the way of settlement, I think it will be seen that they are satisfactory. During the four years which preceded 1897, the number of homestead entries made in Manitoba and the North-west Territories was 9,844 ; the number of homestead entries that were made in the succeeding four years was 27,130. Now it will be evident to any person that this growth could not happen by accident, it is simply the result of persistent work which we have carried on for the purpose of colonization. The net number of homestead entries which were granted in 1896, taking off those that were cancelled, was less than 150, in 1901 the number was 8,136. For the first three months of the year 1902, the number of homestead entries that have been granted in Manitoba and the North-west Territories amounts to 3,024, and we may confidently expect that at the end of the year we will be able to show a total of over 10,000 homestead entries in the west. I do not know that I need to go into any further details for the purpose of showing the success of the work we have carried on. [DOT]
But, I may point out to the House that not only is settlement carried on by the granting of homestead entries, but settlement has progressed to the extent and the class of settlers we are getting in is improving to the extent, that, I fancy, fully one-half of tne settlers that are actually located on the land in the west are located on purchased lands and have not taken up homestead at all. The division, I would say, roughly speaking, would be about one half, so that in addition to something over 8,000 homestead entries last year, there was practically an equal amount of land sold by various railways and land companies with the result that practically an equal amount of land was settled in addition to that which was settled by the taking up of homesteads, or of free grant lands. The statistics in regard to the sale of lands show very clearly what has been going on.
Let us take the case of five companies having land for sale in the North-west Territories-the Hudson's Bay Company, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the Manitoba and South-western Colonization Railway Company, the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railroad and Steamship Company, and the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company, these being the companies which are the principal land owners in the North-west. The sales since 1893 have been as follows :
Year.	Acres.
1893			 120,000
1894.		 68,666
		 114,000
		 108,000
i qq7	 222,000	
1898 .. .		 448,000
1899	.		 462,000 .. .. 648,000
1901	 621,000	
And for the three months of this year these five companies have sold 443,000 acres of land. The House will see that there has been an enormous change in the position of affairs. In fact, I need not say anything to convince hon. gentlemen from the west, or hon. gentlemen who are following the state of affairs there, that a transformation has taken place in regard to the position of affairs in that western country. In 1896, it would be safe to say, that there was no progress being made. This was the position of the population of Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Practically, things were at a standstill and in the great territory of Alberta, I think I am safe in saying, that the people, to some extent at least, were actually moving out of that territory. At the present time there is an enormous stream of population going into that territory and not only going into Alberta but into different portions of the Canadian North-west. As a result of the effect which our work is having we find that the inauguration of a movement of settlers from the western states to Canada has caused speculators from the cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis and other western cities to go into the North-west Territories and buy up large quantities of land. We find now that the work which we as a government are doing in the western states through our agents is being enormously supplemented by the efforts of these American speculators who have bought land in Manitoba and the North-west Territories and who are endeavouring to co-operate with us in getting settlers to go upon the land which they have purchased. I might give to the House a practical indication of one result of the work which we have been doing. I had sent to me the other day a special issue of the Minneapolis ' Journal,' a paper published in the city of Minneapolis which has a very large circulation and I find, Sir, that the Minneapolis ' Journal ' has actually published a special edition dealing with the resources of western Canada in which they describe the resources of our western .country in as glowing terms as any government pamphlet could do. I fancy that between the time when the farmers of Minnesota would not belive that we could grow wheat north of the international boundary line and the time when we find a great Minneapolis paper making a special issue for the purpose of advertising our land, there must have been a large amount of effective work done. I find on the front page, head lines to this effect :

American Invasion of Western Canada a Peace.	fui Invasion.
Bumper Crops of 1901 made Western Canada Canada's Land of Rich Promise.
I simply bring this to tbe attention of me House to show one of the results of the work we have been doing in the western states, and that we have secured the co-operation of the most important agency that could possibly be obtained. The people who would not believe the representations of our agents and who would not read the government pamphlets will read the representations and statements of their papers, will believe these statements and will be influenced by them to a much greater extent than they would be by any other agency that could be employed. We have these land companies in Minneapolis, St. Paul and Omaha, and we have therefore cooperating agencies in these western cities of the most effective description and the result is seen in what is taking place in our western country at the present time.
I am not going to burden the discussion by quoting extracts to any extent at all, but I am going to cite, for the benefit of hon. gentleman on the other side of the House, a few remarks from papers which support them and which, therefore, cannot be accused of being unduly biased in favour of the government. There is no paper in Canada that lias more violently attacked me and attacked the policy which I have pursued in regard to immigration than the Winnipeg ' Telegram.' The Winnipeg ' Telegram' in its issue of the 3rd of this month used language to this effect :
Probably there has never been a greater movement with ' back to the land ' behind it than is now going on in the province of Manitoba and the North-west. The general tendency from all quarters of the globe seems to be concentrated in the pursuit of agriculture. Settlers are coming in from all quarters of the globe, but the mo-st notable influx of land buyers is from the republic to the south.
The Winnipeg ' Tribune ' refers to this special edition and describes the influx of people in much the same terms. We have had articles in the New York ' Sun,' the Springfield ' Republican ' and in the leading United States papers describing the movement, and all attributing a vigour and extent to it, which I, myself, can hardly believe to be well founded, because, if the statements which we find in these papers were correct, the numbers who would he coming would be much beyond anything we have hitherto ventured to hope for.
I have called the attention of the House to these facts for a purpose, and that purpose, Mr. Speaker, is. if possible, to enlist the sympathy of hon. members on both sides of the House in the vigorous prosecution of this work and in everything that tends to the promotion of immigration in the west. I want to say, as a responsible minister, having before me the fact that Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
what I say is taken down and that I am likely to be judged by it in the future, that I have formed the deliberate opinion, and I entertain the deliberate opinion to-night, that Canada has, during the next two or three years, the greatest opportunity of promoting its own greatness that it has ever had since confederation.
I beg to say, Mr. Speaker, that I do not believe that there is a gentleman in this House who fully realizes what can be done for the Dominion of Canada during the next five years , by a progressive agricultural settlement in the west, if all is done that ought to be done for the purpose of promoting it and assisting it, and encouraging it. Of course tilings may happen which we do not anticipate. Unexpected misfortunes may check this movement, or something may occur to prevent us reaping the full benefit of it. But speaking tonight from the information I have at my command, speaking with as full knowledge of the subject as it is possible to derive from the reports of officers who are engaged in the work; I believe I am safe in saying that we have inaugurated a movement of population towards western Canada much larger than that which existed in 1881 and 1882, when the first movement of population went there, and moreover, the present movement is coming from the outside and not from within Canada herself. The movement, in fact, is adding the very best class of people of the western states, by thousands, to our British population.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not mentioning this for the purpose of getting any special credit for myself. The work has been carried on to the best of the ability of the men in whose hands it has been placed.
I do not agree with my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) when he says that a good crop or two would do the work and bring in settlers to fill up the country. I have lived there for a good many years.
I have seen good crops, and I have seen good prices ; I have seen bad crops and I have seen bad prices; but I never saw this immigration movement from the western states until the work was done there which got into the minds of the people of that country a full and complete knowledge of the resources of Canada. When that was done, and only when that was done, did we begin to reap the results of our work.
If the House will consider for a few moments the possible effects of what is going on now, hon. gentlemen will realize its vast importance to the whole Dominion of Canada. Last year the production of Manitoba and the North-west Territories was enormous considering the size of the popu lation. It must be remembered that out of the total population, perhaps not more than two-thirds contributed to that crop. Out of the population of 450,000 (or nearly
500.000	now), about one-third were persons who had come in within the last three years,

and it is not until a settler has been in the country three or four years that he is able to produce to any considerable extent or to add appreciably to the general production. Therefore, only about two-thirds of the population of the west contributed to last year's crop. When you consider the enormous production of last year com-' ing from certainly not more than 300,000 producers, you have only to reflect for a moment to realize what the production will be when we have from 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 upon these fertile prairies.
What I desire to impress upon the House is this : That while we have been talking in past years about haying a large population upon our western prairies, we have been talking about a thing that did not appear to be in sight ; a thing that was in the future; a thing that might come, but as to which we had no evidence that it was likely to come in the near future. I want to tell the House now, that if we can get several thousand settlers into the Territories, this year, and increase that again next year, then in six or seven years we will have such a producing population as will be of untold benefit to the whole Dominion of Canada. When we talk now about peopling the prairies, we are talking about something that is present; something that is tangible; something that we can all unite on no matter what our political predilections may be.
I do not plead this in order to escape criticism. because I perfectly understand that the work of the Department of Immigration, like the work of any other department of government is a matter for political criticism, and I expect to get my share as do other members of the government. But I desire to say, that so far as the result is concerned, we must all agree that the result is most desirable and if matters are carried on as they ought to be, that result is almost within our grasp.
While I am upon this subject, I want to say a word or two more upon the necessities of the situation in the west. The House will pardon me for departing a little from the question immediately before the House, but perhaps there will be no discussion in this House again in respect to which it will be as opportune as it is now. ' What I want to say is this: Many gentlemen who represent constituencies in eastern Canada are unable to understand the importunity of our western people in regard to railroads. They are apt to think, and not without apparent reason, that our people are sometimes unreasonable in their demands for railway accommodation, which would seem to be far in excess of that which older portions of the eastern provinces possess. I want to call the attention of the House to a fact known to persons who are familiar with the western country. In the first place, that is a wheat .raising country; in many sections it is almost exclusively a wheat-, raising country, and the conditions are different from what they are in any other portions of Canada. The farmer from the western states who has been accustomed to live in a wheat-raising state, will not go anywhere that he does not think he is going to be within twenty miles of a railway. He simply won't go. He will go 200 miles or 500 miles away if he has reason to believe that there will be a railway there within a few years, but he will not settle down with the idea that he is going to be thirty or forty miles from a railway, because he knows from experience that no man can raise wheat and haul it that distance to a railway station and make it pay. The enormous labour of hauling large crops of wheat a long distance has proven by experience to be such that wheat growing cannot be successfully carried on under such conditions. Our people have learned that lesson by experience. The result is that if there is a section of the country thirty or forty miles away from any railway that is projected, and the people get the idea that there is not going to be a railway there within a reasonable time, they will simply get out and go to some other part of the country which is favourably situated, and which is likely to get a railway soon. My object in making this reference is. to commend to the favourable consideration of the House the idea of a liberal policy in respect to the construction of colonization railways through the Northwest. I am satisfied that if parliament desires to reap to the fullest extent possible the benefit which can be reaped from the position in which we stand to-day in respect to immigration, parliament will have to face this railway question in the Northwest. Without being too sanguine, I think I can say to the House : That we practically have got over the hill upon the immigration question; we have surmounted the principal difficulties, and we may now hope for a pretty rapid return for the money which we have been expending in past years.
Just a word or two in regard to the work of the department in Great Britain. My hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) mentioned that changes have been made in Great Britain. Members of the House will remember that two years ago I stated that I was not altogether satisfied with the way in which the work in Great Britain was being conducted, and that an attempt was being made to improve the character of the work there. The work in other places had been brought under the direct control of the department, and for the last year Mr. Preston, the inspector in England, had been devoting his attention largely to continental immigration, with a considerable degree of success. I stated to the House last year that the work in London had been placed under the High Commissioner, but practically, as to its actual superintendence, in charge of Mr. Preston. That was the result of a conference which I had with

Lord Strathcona when I was in London, and when I discussed the subject very fully with him. When Lord Strathcona came to Canada some time ago, I again discussed it with him, with the result that the work was put more decidedly under the charge of the department and separated from the other work of the High Commissioner's office. While it was to remain under Lord Strathcona's direction as High Commissioner, the reports were to he sent direct to the head office here, and the officers were to receive instructions directly from us as to how the work should be carried on. I was not satisfied that that arrangement would be carried out successfully without some supervision here, and therefore I sent over to England Mr. Smart, the deputy minister, who has given special attention to the subject of immigration during the time he has been in charge of the department, and who is thoroughly competent to deal with any question in connection with it. Under Mr. Smart the change was made, and I think that those who follow the English papers will admit that the amount of attention he received from the English press was extremely gratifying, and the practical results, as far as immigration is concerned, have been still more gratifying; because the work of the office has assumed larger proportions from the time the change was made and a different method of carrying on the work was inaugurated. One thing that was done when Mr. Smart was in England 1 may mention to the House as an illustration of the difference in methods applied, and the result of it. While Mr. Smart and Mr. White, the press agent of the department, were in London, they conceived the idea of getting out an issue of a newspaper devoted specially to Canada. They got out the paper, had 500,000 copies printed, from an advertising agency got lists of names of agricultural labourers and farmers, to whom they thought it desirable to send the paper, and had the 500,000 copies distributed to them through the mails. The result was that the department received an enormous amount of inquiries from parts of the country from which no inquiries had been received before, showing that the change in method by which direct communication was had with the class of people whom it was desired to reach, did have very satisfactory results. It is intended to foilow in Great Britain more largely the method which has been followed successfully in the United States, that is, to relieve the agents largely of the work of lecturing, and to trust more to advertising and literature to bring about a desire on the part of immigrants to move. This, particularly advertising in the regular press, is the best method of calling attention to the resources of the country, and inducing people to make up their minds to come. I do not know that there is anything else to which I desire at the present moment to draw attention; but if in the course of the discussion on the estimates any Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
other information is desired, I shall be very happy to give it.
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $110,000.


The MINISTER OE THE INTERIOR.: I think it might be satisfactory to the House if I stated in general terms how the vote was expended in 1900-1901. Salaries of agents and employees on the immigration staff, $109,590.44. Salaries of extra clerks at the head office, $4,757.72. Travelling and office expenses-in Canada, $23,724,90; in the United States, $31,185.62; in England, $11,696; in Ireland, $6,804.05; in Scotland, $5,119.88; on the continent, $4,065.99; total, $82,696.45. Miscellaneous expenses in the High Commissioner's office in London, $4,704.77. Postage at the head office, $4,827. Commissions and bonuses- in the United States, $11,879.67; to children, $2,716; British and continental, $28,136.19; total, $42,418.47. Services for land guides in the west and interpreters, $8,701.20. Advertising and printing-in Great Britain, $74,429.50; on the continent, $2,238.86. The last item is very small, the explanation being that under our arrangement with the North Atlantic Company, they paid for the advertising and all the expenses in that respect. The general expenses for immigration were as follows : On medical expense we spent $3,424 ; on laundry and miscellaneous $700 ; on supplies, &c., $735 ; on uniforms and equipment, $5,215 ; on collections of exhibits, $2,150 ; on literature and expenses of delegates, $2,781. Then we provided some medals for competition in the British schools so as to encourage the children in acquiring knowledge of Canada. For those medals we paid $614.14. We gave a special grant to the Quebec and Lake St. John Railway, which we have been in the habit of giving some years, that being a railway company which has done a good deal to promote settlement and colonization in the neighbourhood of Lake St. John. We have given that company $8,000. We are giving a colonization society which works amongst the French Canadians in. the eastern states and locates them in the neighbourhood of Lake St. John, $2,400. We have spent on hospitals, $3,696 ; on a colonization society at Algoma, $250; and on exhibits at Winnipeg Industrial Exhibition, $1,000. A good many people from Dakota and Minnesota visited this exhibition. Then we paid a gratuity to one of our officers of $200 ; miscellaneous expenditure, $1,696 ; the Workingmen's National Immigration Society, $1,000 ; the Girl's Home at London, $1,000 ; the Girl's Home at Winnipeg, which takes care of young women who have no home, several hundred dollars ; making a total expenditure of $447,739. That was the ex-1 pendifhre in 1900-1. and will give a fail*

idea of the manner in which the money is distributed.


Robert Laird Borden: Can you give us an idea of how the $100,000 for agents and employees in the three countries mentioned is distributed ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is distributed as follows :	Salaries of
agents in Canada, $60,312.50 ; United States, $27,250 ; Great Britain and Ireland, $20,100 ; the continent, $3,400.


Robert Laird Borden: What does the amount expended in Canada cover ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That pays all the officers of the department, including those who have charge of the buildings at Halifax, St. John and Quebec, our staff in the North-west and Winnipeg, and all over the country, as well as some extra clerks here.


Arthur W. Puttee: I understand that the principal office in Liverpool has been moved to Birmingham. Why has that been done ? It seems to me that Liverpool is the proper place to have a head office.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, The office has not been changed from Liverpool, but when the deputy minister was there he came to the conclusion that the staff might be better distributed. He is leaving one of the officers in Liverpool, who had been working there, Mr. Jury, and the other officer named Mitchell-a very excellent officer, with whom I am personally acquainted-has been sent to Birmingham, so that the office at Liverpool is not closed, but we are sending one of the officers to Birmingham.


Arthur W. Puttee: Is Birmingham to be the principal station ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Liverpool must be the principal station because it is the shipping port.


Arthur W. Puttee: I can hardly see what is the object of having an office in the city of Birmingham. It is hardly likely you are going to procure agriculturists from that district. You might as well expect to find them in Whitechapel. The labour interests of the country, in years past and this year, have approached the different governments and Ministers of the Interior, and have always pointed out their opposition to state, aided immigration to labourers, ^ and the reply has always -been that the policy of the government was only to encourage people coming into the country who are going to settle on our lands. I was on a deputation only last month, which waited on the First Minister, and he then reiterated that policy. He told the deputation that he would have instructions sent to the agents instructing them that they were not to go out of their way to induce mechanics, labourers, wage-earners to come to Canada,
and the next thing I heard was that th^ office was being moved from Liverpool to Birmingham.
There is another matter to which I would like to draw the attention of the hon. mini ister. Last August, just when the western; crop was ready, there were not only large) excursions inaugurated in eastern Canada, but also in Great Britain, and circulars werq sent out from the High Commissioner's* office in London, stating that nine shillings and ten shillings a day, with board, was! being paid harvesters in western Canada. That was not true. Harvesters were not being paid $2.25 or $2.50 a day, with board, in the west. The result was that during the third week of August quite a large number left England and arrived in the west about the first week of September, only to find that they had been practically misled. This caused a great deal of dissatisfaction, and those who could do so returned straight to^ England, and no doubt that offset, to some) extent, the work which our agents are dot ing over there. We should be very careful not to publish statements so much overdrawn when the facts can be ascertained.
I believe that the lack of proper direction in the importing and distributing of the excursionists was the means of driving^ a great many British citizens across the line! to the United States, and I mention this) in order that it may be avoided in the. future.
The thing was done in this way. In England, and also in the east here, there was a good deal of publicity given to the very true statement that there was a tremendous crop to be gathered, and that 20,000 harvesters were needed. About 18,000 came up, nearly, as many as were wanted. The country had to get them. There was so little planing, so little ordering of this movement, that it was left mostly to the railway companies ; and I submit that a railway company does not go into these things thoroughly enough, and is not the proper authority to trust in such matters. The result was that large numbers of men were gathered together in small towns, sometimes after the market had been fully supplied. Unfortunately, at that time we were struck by a wet seasonf there.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When did that occur ?


Mr PUTTEE.: From about the 4th of September. It is true, that after the men o-ot there the local government bestirred itself and tried to relieve the situation. But it was too late then, arrangements should have been made two weeks before. There was a lack of proper handling of these men, and they suffered seriously in consequence. And we suffered also as a country. At that time the harvest to the south, in Minnesota and Dakota was not finished and numbers of our people were so disgusted with the treatment they had

received that they crossed the line. They blamed the railway company, or the government or anybody they pleased, but they blamed somebody, because they found themselves there and no provision made to look after their interests. Though no figures can be got upon these m'atters, I am justified in saying that hundreds, probably thousands, drifted across the line into the two states I have mentioned. These were our own Canadian people mainly, people from Ontario, and from all the country east as far as Prince Edward Island, just the people we want to keep in that country. And it does seem to me that, when we are going so deeply into expenditure in immigration matters, we should, at least, not drive our own people out. I am not opposed to immigration. I am glad to say that at last we begin to see the west fill up as we expected it to. At the same time it is _ not good policy and it is not sound business to give all our attention and spend all our money to bring in people from other countries and not take even ordinary precautions to keep our own people. We should, at all events, make it easier for these people. If this matter had been handled properly no complaint would have been made. But there were hundreds, and I do not know that I should be wrong if I said thousands who were driven across the boundary. In case of another crop such as that, if the country has to appeal for help, thorough and early action should be taken by this government and the local government and all interested in transportation, in settling the country and in getting out the crop. I think it is only right to bring this to the attention of the minister, in order that similar difficulties may be avoided in the future.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It has not, for many years, been the policy of the department, either under the late government or under this government, to make any attempt to induce mechanics or wage earners to come to Canada. The committee will see that, of course, it will be impossible for us in our immigration work to say that we will induce nobody to come except persons who have been farmers or farm labourers in the old land. Many of our best and most successful settlers were not farmers in their own country. The test we have tried to apply is this :	Does the
person intending to come to Canada intend to become an agriculturist ? If he does, we encourage him to come and give him every assistance we can. But we give no encouiagement whatever to persons to come here to work for wages as a rule, and we give no encouragement under any circumstances to persons desirous of coming out to get clerical situations of any kind, the view being that we have enough persons to fill all situations of that sort. I think I can say that every officer of the department .understands this and persistently tries to Mr. PUTTEE.
carry it out. There will be little mistakes made sometimes, but I do not think there will be any substantial violation of that rule.
As to what happened last year, I think I have a fairly good knowledge of the facts, though I was not west at the time. And I think that what happened is what would have happened in spite of the existence of any government or any effort that might have been made. Tliq general idea on the part of the public seems to be that the officers of the department can make the people go where they like and do what they want them to. That is a mistake. It takes a great deal of tact to handle four or five hundred people when they land on the wharf at Halifax, Quebec or St John. Very few men are qualified to do it. Great difficulty arises in inducing these people to go to the places we know they ought to go to, and to do the things we know they ought to do. Last fall the local government made an honest effort to cope with the labour situation, which was of the most extraordinary character. Sixty-five millions of bushels of wheat had to be harvested and there was not nearly enough help in sight to do the work. Men who have not lived in a wheat country do not understand the situation that arises when an enormous crop develops suddenly. I think that the local government made an honest effort to grapple with the situation, and so did we; and I think we assisted materially in saving millions of bushels of wheat that would otherwise have been lost. We induced la bourers to go there and thought that was a good thing to do, because. going out there with the idea that they would be farm labourers for a time they would probably become settlers, and they are the class , of people who make the best settlers. But, in many cases, these people going in congregated at the larger places. The result was that there was congestion at such places as Brandon, Virden, Portage la Prairie and others, yet farmers outside were without help and were unable to get it. The officers of the local government and the members of the government also, knowing the situation did what they could to meet it. The Dominion officers also did their best, and, after a little while the congestion was overcome. But there was some little damage before it was overcome. That, however, was not due to any fault of ours, or, I believe, to apy fault on the part of the local government. It was due simply to the fact that the men who came refused to take the advice of the officers of the department and go where they wanted them to go. So far as the general policy of the department is concerned, the hon. gentleman may rest assured that there is no substantial departure from the rule, no violation that would not occur under ' any circumstances, under any minister or with any officer. We seek not to bring persons

to Canada except persons who intend to become settlers.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Perhaps the greatest difficulty about the men who went out to the west on the harvest excursions last fall was that they were men entirely unaccustomed to that kind of work. Whether the government or those who invited the harvesters to go out took the precaution of warning them of the peculiar kind of labour that would be required of them, I do not know. Certainly there was a mistake made somewhere. I am informed on the very best of authority-that is by a gentleman who was on the ground

that it was not an unusual thing for the farmer to drive into town and take out a load of men to his farm in the morning and drive them back at night, because they were utterly useless for his purpose, and, to use a common expression on the farm, became ' bushed ' before night. No doubt, a great many more went out than could get work at certain points. But I believe that the men who were capable of doing the work were able to obtain employment.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Where did the persons come from the hon. gentleman mentions ?


David Henderson: I would say from every where in Ontario. There is no question that -many of these people who went out there were not accustomed to farm work. They -had been following occupations that did not harden them sufficiently to work in the harvest field and perform the labour that was required of them either in driving the reapers or in stooking. That perhaps is one of the hardest parts of harvest work. I think if the government had anything to do with the invitation to labourers to go to Manitoba, they should specially have warned the young men not to go out there with the idea that they were going to have a holiday, as many of them no doubt did last summer. They found it a very different thing. Many were dissatisfied and -disappointed, and, compelled to return. That is the only point I desire to make, that whilst a general invitation is extended to farm hands to go west during the summer, caution should be given them that they will be required to do a heavy day's work.	'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I desire to say to my hon. friend that so far as the movement of people from Ontario to the west is -concerned, this government has nothing whatever to do with it, we keep absolutely clear of that. We do not conceive it in our -business to move people from one part of Canada to the other. That is the principle adopted by the late government, and we have followed it. The invitation that was extended must either have been by the local government of Manitoba or by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, I think perhaps they co-operated to get labourers to go up there. My hon. friend will see that it would be a difficult matter for them to make any distinction in the persons who accepted the invitation.


Mr. TAYLOR.: In 1895-6 the late government brought down immigration estimates amounting to $21,500 ; the hon. gentleman is now asking for $110,000, a very large increase indeed. I am satisfied there is no gentleman on this side of the House who objects to a judicious expenditure of money to promote immigration. In 1895-6, the late government had agencies in England and foreign countries, and in the United States. They brought large numbers of farmers from the United States, and took them on tours through the western country. A good many people settled there coming from the old country, besides the Galicians and Doukhobours, and I think we brought as many immigrants for the $21,500, in proportion, as this government has been bringing in, and more from Ireland, as the hon, member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) has shown. We all remember the attacks that were made on the late government by the hon. gentlemen who are now occupying the Treasury benches, for even that expenditure of $21,500, and they declared that it was a waste of money to maintain agencies in the United States. What do we find now ? If the -hon. gentlemen will turn to the Auditor General's Report, L-12, he will find T. O. Currie was paid $2,993 for services and expenses last year. T. O. Currie wa^ the leader of the Patron movement, and he is -paid the sum of $1,200 a year salary, and $712 for his board and lodgings, and other ' incidental expenses, bring the total up to $2,993. I would like to know what benefit we are getting from Mr. Currie for that sum of money. He is only one of twenty or thirty agents that are over there.
Then we have a sum of money paid Reid Bros., London, $4,060 for 101,500 copy books, at four cents a piece. I would like to know why he pays Reid Bros, of London for printing copy -books. Then we have on L-1G an account that my hon. friend from Lennox referred to to-day, the Rev. D. A. Twomey, paid, $1,572 simply for a pleasure trip across the ocean and back, and for travelling here in Canada. He got $600 for six months u-p to February 28 ; living expenses, $533.03 ; cabs and transfers, $52.48 ; postage, $2.57 ; railway fare, $70.18 ; passage to Liverpool and return, $59.80 ; tips to stewards, $24 ; wharfage, $1.22 ; travel in Canada :	Cabs, $24 ; fares, $48.87 ; living', expenses, $115.50 ; pull-mans, $34.50, total, $1,572. Then I find that the hon. gentleman went over to Chicago, and he paid Rand, McNally & Co., $30,594 for printing, all of which ought to have been done in Canada and the money spent here. There was nothing -done there -but what might

have been done here just as well and better. These are the items of the account:
Concise atlases. 48,625,	$2,985.33 ; concise
maps, 100 M. at $4.50 ; Dominion maps, 100 M. at $10.50; Norwegian pamphlets, 20 M, at $52.50; school atlases, 200 M. at $42.55, 775 for $47.58 ; Western Canada atlases, English, 260 M. at $43.69 ; French, 10 M., $433.05 ; German, 10 M., $407.60 ; Swedish, 10 M., $406.75 ; Danish, 10 M., $409.30 ; readers, flexible, 50 M., $3,069.75 ; printing on back and folding maps, 20 M. at $5.50, 40 M. at $4.10 ; binding in cloth, 1,000 Western Canada atlases, $140.40 ; small items, $1.17.
The money collected from the taxpayers of Canada is sent over to the United States to pay for printing that should have been done in Canada. Now I think there is much wasteful extravagance in that expenditure of $110,000. Providence has done more to help immigration, by the magnificent! crops we have had for the last year or two in the west, than all the efforts of the hon. gentleman, assisted by his Curries and Twomeys. Provjdence has blest that country with a bountiful harvest, and pioneers have been going in there for a number of years, induced by one or two Canadian agents who went through the United States under the late government, and brought in farmers to view the land, many of whom settled there. These men have written; to their friends, and the seed then sown, along with the bountiful crops for the last year or two, have done as much or more thau Mr. Currie and the other fifteen or twenty agents who are now employed. I see one gentleman in Detroit draws $5,545.33 in salary] and expenses, Mr. Mclnnes, and so they go. 1 suppose Mr. Mclnnes is, like Mr. Currie, another political friend. In my opinion, one-half of that $110,000 has just been spent in jobs of that kind.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: He is a political friend of your own.


George Taylor: I do not care who he is; this is too much money. Because he is a political friend of our own this additional salary has been granted to buy him up and in the same way Mr. Currie was bought up from being a Patron.


Mr. REID (Grenville).: I would like to call the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior to the fact that the offices of the different immigration agents are unfit for a country like Canada.
The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR, Which offices ?


John Dowsley Reid: I mean all the different offices, and I wall refer to each one. In the city of London, for instance, the High Commissioner, of course, has his offices, but, as the hon. minister knows, he lias simply taken off a small room for Mr. Preston. That is perhaps large enough for Mr. Preston, but, what I claim is that we should have a nicely fitted up office so that


George Taylor: when intending immigrants do come in it will have the appearance of showing that there is some backbone to this country. I would like the hon. minister to provide a proper office in the city of London for this purpose. In the city of Paris I asked Mr. Pabre, who is the agent there, why he had not a better office and he complained that he had only got the office he now has a short time ago. You have to go through a back alley and away up stairs, and it is an impossibility to find out where our offices are, so much so that very few Canadians register there. Then, again, in Liverpool, I could scarcely find out where the office was. The same is true in the different offices that I visited to register, as every Canadian likes to do. Then, coming to this country, we have an office in the city of Montreal. The minister, I suppose, has visited the immigration office where Mr. Hoolahan is the agent. It is situated in a little side street off St. James street. I have been there two or three times, and I think it is a disgrace to this country to have an office of that kind.
Something has been said about the salaries of the different agents. I believe that any man who undertakes the position of] head immigration agent in the city of Dublin, or Liverpool, or in any other place, leaves this country, takes his family over there, settles down, assumes that office, pays his living expenses, rental, &c., and accepts $1,200 a year, is not qualified to fill the position. I believe that a man who has the ability to fill the position of immigration agent in Liverpool, will never leave this country and go over there for $1,200 a year. I inquired what rents and living expenses were. I did that in Dublin-I may say I happened to be where Mr. Devlin was-and taking into consideration the amount that any gentleman would have to pay to keep up his position as commercial agent there, it is evident that he cannot live in Dublin on $1,200 a year and do his duty. Therefore, I claim that these men who are over there and who are accepting $1,200 a year are not qualified for their positions. Mr. Jury, who is in Liverpool, gets $1,200 a year, and I would like to know what he does. I made inquiries about him specially and he is not looked upon as a man of ability or as a man possessing the qualifications necessary to discharge the duties of the office. So far as Mr. Preston is concerned, of course, there was no person that I could get information from, but, when I went to Victoria street and looked at the immigration office, I thought it was a disgrace to have an office of that kind. Therefore, I believe that either a sufficient amount should be taken out of the $110,000 to give the immigration agents respectable offices, or the necessary amount should be added to the vote so as to place us upon an equal basis with other countries that have offices which are very much superior to those of Canada.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: With some of the remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Reid) I quite agree, although with other things that he said I cannot entirely agree. I may say that when Mr. Smart, the Deputy Minister of the Interior, went over early this year for the purpose of overhauling the work there, he was instructed to endeavour to find a suitable location (or a first-class office in London. That was one matter to which he specially directed his attention. The High Commissioner has lately secured an addition to his offices. I do not know whether he had done so when the hon. gentleman was there or not, but the offices occupied by the High Commissioner and which were occupied by him the last time I was there, was doubled, by procuring the other half of the building and which is now occupied by the immigration branch of our work under the High Commissioner. We are satisfied that it is not a suitable office, and the recommendation of the deputy minister was that suitable quarters shoud be procured on Trafalgar Square, in the neighbourhood of Charing Cross station. That is the very best place in the city of London that we could get.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, that is the very best place.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) is considering the idea of having a commercial office in the same quarter as the immigration office, where his department could directly communicate with an agent for the purpose of assisting in connection with commercial matters. Whether that project should materialize or not it is the intention to have a suitable office, to have it in the very best place in the city of London, and have it properly equipped. When we have established our new office, I think the hon. gentleman will find it satisfactory. But, where the department has had quarters before we have not seen fit to disturb them. The Liverpool office is in the same place in which it has been located since Mr. John Dyke went there many years ago, and the same may be said of the city of Montreal. At Quebec, St. John and Halifax, the quarters are very good. So far as the city of London is concerned, I quite agree witu Mr. Reid, and I think I can promise that within the year we will be able to have quarters of a creditable character. In respect to the question of salaries, and particularly in respect to Mr. Jury, I can only say that I knew something of Mr. Jury before he was appointed, and I think that if the hon. gentleman knew him personally he would not say that he was not a man of ability. There are differences of opinion in regard to Sir. Jury's character, his opinions and qualifications, but, I think that if the hon. gentleman were acquainted with him he would say that he was a man of good capacity.
His work has been in the line of lecturing at agricultural fairs in the west of England particularly, and I think he has done a good and useful work. Under the present arrangement, he having been there for some years, and understanding the work very well, has been put in charge of the Liverpool office, and I believe the work which is required to be done there will be satisfactorily done. I quite agree with the hon. gentleman that our salaries are not too high, and being personally acquainted with the agents we have fin Great Britain and Ireland, I think I can say that without exception they are men who are thoroughly qualified for their work.
I knew Mr. Webster for many years, and any person who knows him would say that he is thoroughly qualified. He is a capable, educated man with a good knowledge of Canada and of the country he is working in.
I know Mr. Duncan well, and I can say that he is a man of unusual ability. His work is very satisfactory. On the whole our agents are pretty well qualified and the work which they are doing is I think satisfactory. I have said to the House a couple of times that I was not satisfied with the progress of the work in Great Britain formerly. I think, however, that any lack of success there was not due to the agents themselves, but rather to the manner in which they were directed. For that reason we have made a change. My hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) spoke about the purchase of the atlases.
I agree with him that where it is possible to buy anything in Canada it ought to be bought in Canada. I would go further than that and say that I would rather pay a little more for a thing in Canada than. I would m a foreign country. But in the case of the atlases there was such an enormous difference in the price that I felt constrained to purchase them from Rand & McNally. Some members of the House have taken the trouble to examine the atlas, and I think they all agree that it is a very creditable publication. The cost is remarkably small. My deputy minister informs me that the cost of the first edition of the atlas, which is a verv creditable production indeed, is less than 8 cents each. I discussed the matter with publishers in Canada, and they told me that they could not get out this publication for less than 20 cents a number. In an issue of 200,000 or 300,000, the difference between 8 cents and 20 cents was so large that I felt it my duty to buy from Rand & McNally. That is perhaps the greatest map publishing firm in the world. They have facilities which render it wholly impossible for any one to compete with them in price. They produce these things in enormous numbers, buy their paper at the very lowest price, and practically all we pay for them is the cost of paper and press work. Such atlases intended for free distribution in enormous numbers, must be got at rock bottom prices or else we could not


' COMMONS
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distribute them at all. No firm in Canada could begin to do the work at such a low price.
David Henderson: Was 'it the larger atlas or the small atlas that cost 8 cents.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: 1 was not speaking of the smaller one. It is the large publication with a lot of maps in it that cost 8 cents.


Mr. BOURASSA.: I have no desire to criticise the minister for not purchasing these things in Canada when there is a very special advantage to be derived by purchasing them elsewhere. However, this summer, while pasing through the different agencies in England, Ireland and Scotland, I gathered a number of pamphlets that are printed in London, by McCorquodale & Co. for the government of Canada. Possibly some of these pamphlets may be purchased at a much cheaper price in London than here. I notice, however, that some of them are very ordinary printing. Much better work could have been turned out in Canada, and if they can be purchased here in the future it would be better to do so. I wish to call the attention of the Minister of the Interior to one matter which no doubt has escaped his notice. Here is a small map distributed by the government of Canada and published by the same firm of McCorquodale & Company of London. I find from this map that tile richest part of tlie province of Quebec has been annexed to the United States ; that the city of Montreal is put on the south shore of the St. Lawrence, just on the borders of the United States ; that the counties of Chateauguay, Beauliarnois, Huntingdon, St. .Tohn, Iberville, Laprairie, and even the county of the Minister of Agriculture are already annexed to the State of New York and the state of Vermont.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: I am not surprised in view of this, than when an alderman of the city of Montreal went in to a London telegraph office last summer to cable home, he was asked by the agent : in what state of the American Union Montreal was. Of course I do not suppose that people who want to get accurate information as to Canada would rely upon this small map, but at the same time it is a pity that a map issued by the government of Canada in 1901, should contain such a mistake. I hope the minister will see that these maps are withdrawn from distribution, and that a map will be substituted which will show that the province of Quebec still belongs to Canadians and not to the Americans.


Mr. GOURLEY.: I was loath to make any remarks on this question, because I am opposed to this whole grant in regard to immigration, not because I would not vote this sum or double the sum if I believed there was an earnest desire to get people into this Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
country, but because I do not believe that the appropriation is properly expended. I am in accord with the minister in his statement, that immigration is the great need of Canada. I listened with pleasure, when he told us, that 50,000 people had come into this country, but I have listened to that kind of statement so often, when my own party was in power and since, and I have so often been disappointed in its accuracy, that I have learned to be very cautious. Whenever the census, comes around, we find, that such statements are not true, and I venture to say that at the end of ten years more, the 50,000 immigrants, announced by the hon. Minister of the Interior, will not be found on Canadian soil. I desire to attack this whole vote because the system of expenditure must be unscientific and unsystematic from beginning to end. If it be true, as stated by my hon. friend from Grenville (Mr. Reid), that a number of the friends of the hon. Minister of the Interior, occupy high positions and receive large salaries, in these offices, and if this grant of money, is used simply for the general purpose of giving offices to the friends of the hon. Minister of the Interior, then I can quite understand why the results have been so unsatisfactory. It is a lovely thing for the Minister of the Interior to be generous. It was counted a beautiful thing in the old times for a feudal chief to settle all his retainers in homes where they could acquire a living. If the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Sifton) is to use this grant, as a feudal chief, for the purpose of giving all his retainers offices, then if these officers, recognize only that the gift of the office is simply a grant of favour, from the Minister of the Interior, I can understand why the immigration service is so unsatisfactory to this country.
I want to assist the Minister of the Interior to bring immigrants to this country, and before I sit down, I think, I shall be able to suggest, one or two, practical ways in which that can be done. I think we should recast, the whole system of expenditure, in this country, for immigration purposes. I do not defend the old system ; I know very little about it. I, presume that the Minister of the Interior, like his colleagues in the cabinet, has put on the old clothes of the Conservative party ; but the old clothes of the Conservative party may be worn out, and not fitted to clothe the new ministry in these days, and in this particular instance, the policy of the Conservative party, if the hon. gentleman has followed it, was not a wise policy. But there is an excuse, for the Conservative party.
It had to grapple with the building of the Intercolonial Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway ; it had to create a nation out of a few scattered fragments ; it had to frame a national policy.
It was engaged in occupations which would draw its attention away from a question like immigration, which were not

as dominant as the questions to which I have referred. Now, however, the policy of the country is settled; all the great line's of transportation have been established: and hon. gentlemen opposite have nothing to do but to look after the mere details of then-respective offices. Therefore, I advocate a recasting of our immigration policy, on lines which will be conducive to the prosperity of Canada. I was struck with the remarks of the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bou-rassa) with regard to the people of England, and I understand why the real results of immigration to Canada are so meagre and unsatisfactory. If a prominent map-publishing firm in England, which publishes maps of every country in the world, can so . utterly misrepresent the geography of an old country like Canada, we can have some realization, of the ignorance of Canada, that exists in that country. We must look, largely to England, for our immigration. We must look largely to England, to give [DOT]the cue to the old world, as to the most desirable. country, on this continent for immigrants to come to, and any minister who desires to create a wise immigration policy, must direct his efforts, to convincing England, that Canada is that country, else his policy will fail. If Englishmen, who are our kin and blood, will not, come to our shores, who will ? I see that during the past year some 450,000 people have gone to the United States, a great many of them from the British isles, and a great many from countries, which are dominated, in public sentiment and commerce, by England. Why is it that these immigrants, go to the United States, instead of Canada ? There is just one explanation : The Minister of the Interior, has not made Canada well known in the old land. If that is true-if that map is published, in the way, it is said to be, with Montreal, the commercial capital of Canada, which should be as well known as the commercial capital of the United States, as New York or Boston-if Montreal can be placed in the United States, by an English geographer, then I say, the first duty, which we must perform, before we can expect much British immigration to this country, is to educate the people of England, and make them aware of our position on the map. and of the immense possibilities of Canada. I think that is the whole solution of this problem. This attempt to waste half a million dollars, by employing uneducated people, who perhaps could not earn a living here or anywhere, to go to the old country, and attempt to divert immigration, to this country, is folly of the most striking character. We all know, that the people of England. are influenced by caste, by social distinctions ; and there should be three or four men of high social position employed in England to take charge of our immigration, in order to give a character, and in order to tell the people who are about to immigrate, that Canada is the country to
which they ought to go. Unless we do this,
I can understand that the people of England, who are so much influenced by caste, by social position, more perhaps than any other people, might easily say :	' This
Canada is an unknown country ; I have heard very little about it; I will go to the United States, about which T have heard so much, and which fills the eye of the world to the exclusion of Canada.' The point I wish to make is this, that the first duty of this government, this year, is to sit down with the English cabinet, or with that portion of It, which may be charged, with considering the welfare of the colonies, and discuss this question of immigration with -them from beginning to end ; for I am persuaded that until you can get the government of England, with its vast ramifications, of power, and its official importance, and influence, to take hold of this question, and to -make it, its business, to assist this country-and it ought to be the pride and pleasure of Englishmen to do that -the results of our immigration policy will be disappointing and -not what they ought to be. Our ministers should say to the government of England : ' The greatest export you have to-day, the greatest capital you have -to distribute to the world, are the -strong, healthy men and women, who go out from your shores ; and you could not confer on the United States a greater gift than to send them eVery year 100,000 or 150,000 of these strong men and women ; but if you are looking to the colonies for aid, if you expect them -to stand by you in the hour o-f -stress, and difficulty, what you ought to do, is to help u-s to increase the population of Canada, which is a country, of splendid climate and great resources ; then in a few years we shall build you a nation, of fifteen or perhaps -thirty million of people, and after that is accomplished, England, need not fear, the world in arms, against her. The government of Canada, is to-day, largely, a matter of administration. Hon. gentlemen, on the Treasury benches, occupy the h-ap-py position, of being the inheritors of eighteen years o-f the1, most distinguished statesmanship the world has ever witnessed. They are, I may say, the unworthy inheritors of this good fortune, because if they were honourable, respectful heirs, they would be on their feet, every day, declaring that they were grateful, to -such distinguished men as Sir Charles Tupper and Sir John Macdonald, who provided the magnificent inheritance which they enjoy. Is it not a most extraordinary thing, that hon. gentlemen opposite, enjoy an inheritance which they never worked -to create, for to-day the government of Canada is the easiest government in the world; to administer. Everything has been prepared and since the government of Canada, has come to -be largely, a mere matter of administration, this question of immigration is a most important one, and I think the government is censurable, -in -not having ad-

railway, while the United States, in ten years, built sixty thousand miles. They have in the vicinity two hundred thousand miles of railway-as much as all the rest of the world put together. That is why the United States became great and dominant. They had great men, men of ambition, men of ideas,' men of strong imagination. One of the newspapers said the other day that I had imagination. No man is fit to be in parliament, or to attempt to do anything for Canada, unless he has imagination. Too many of our public men have not this part of a statesman's equipment. Blake had no imagination, when he made that historic speech, about the Canadian Pacific Railway, not being able to earn its axle grease. That was the trouble with the man-lack of imagination-and he went to the wall. We need, here, men of imagination, men of heart and feeling and sympathy. If we had, had, men of that kind, during the last sixty years, Canada would have been an equal competitor with the United States. We had Sir John Macdonald. He was a great lion, but, unfortunately, he could not exercise his magnificent powers, because there were thousands, of small men, attacking him on every side. But, in spite, of all they could do, he did achieve extraordinary things for Canada. But, what could he not have done, had he been backed, by an enthusiastic and generous parliament in his great imaginative schemes ? What 1 urge, upon hon. gentlemen opposite, is to imitate Sir John-at a reverent distance, for they can never approach him in statesmanship. If they do that, I will applaud them, and say : You have done the best, that God, ever fitted you to do. I urge them to go to Mr. Chamberlain, and lay, the oase before him. Let them sit down with Lord Salisbury, and urge him to be informed, with regard to Canada. Tell him that by reason of the splendid position he occupies in England, if he will, he can, lend Canada powerful aid. He makes speeches, at the Mansion House, and elsewhere, on every subject, except the colonies. Let them induce him to go to the Mansion House, and make a speech about Canada. If you are to attract, the attention, of the people of England, to Canada, you must have speeches made about Canada, by the men, to whom Englishmen, are accustomed to look, for direction in public affairs. And, without that, all that our ministers and others can do, will have but little result. Let these gentlemen, ask Mr. Chamberlain, to devote six months, to the question of upbuilding Canada, and assure him, the people of Canada, will heartily reciprocate, by adding to the strength of the empire. I think the Finance Minister, would be a good representative for sucli work, for his diplomatic ways in Nova Scotia are well known. Besides, I think, there is an ingenuity about the Nova Scotian, that always, stands him in good stead. I urge attention, to broad Mr. GOURLEY.
and far-reaching purposes. We debate little twopenny-ha'penny questions about men getting ten cents a pound for sugar and so much for bacon


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: All that is very important, and it shows that even little things do not escape the attention of the opposition, but I would rather that the government would indulge in these little peculations undiscovered ; that these men should make two or three hundred thousand dollars improperly, than that they should refuse to engage in a great and comprehensive system of immigration, by which we can get the surplus population of the British Islands. Everybody in Canada would support the government in this policy. This government has a si>lendid opportunity- they have a loyal and patriotic opposition to assist them. We, on the other hand, always had an opposition, that seemed to be opposed, to the country. We join with the government, and if a man comes to this country, he will hear every Conservative from Nova Scotia to British Columbia praising Canada. Let them bring the people here, and the opposition, will undertake to fill them, with the most patriotic notions of Canada, so that they will never leave. Therefore, this government have a chance, that they never gave us, when we were in power. But, so far as I am concerned, I will not find fault with them further, if only they will do better. To err is human, and these hon. gentlemen opposite know it well. Let them take up this great question with the statesmen of Great Britain. Let them stop these petty salaries to these favourites, and devise a system, based upon the recognition, by the statesmen of England, of the fact, that they ought to help us. Instead of sending five or six agents to England, whose work must be practically useless, let them tell the men who have England's affairs in charge : If you will help us in immigration matters, it will cement this country to you,, more than anything else that you can do in a decade of years.
Holding these views, I undertake to say, that the immigration estimate after this will form an occasion for a field fight, unless a new system is adopted. I am here only in the interests of Canada, I have noother object on earth while here to serve.
I like my own country, better than I like myself, and my own interests, and I desire only to serve my country. I would like to help this country along, I want to see it the grandest country on earth, because I expect to live forty or fifty years longer, coming as I do from a strong and healthy breed ; and I expect to see this country the dominant power on this continent. If Enggland will help us, if she will take advantage of the present national feeling, if she will take Canada by the hand and give us her emigration, we shall go on conquering and to conquer.


Mr. ROBINSON (Elgin).: I am afraid that the member for Colchester (Mr. Gour-lay) is too pessimistic altogether. The member for Colchester ought to know that the greatest and most intelligent minds in England know nearly everything about Canada. Some of the best men in England have been, governors of this country, such as Earl Dufferin, Lord Aberdeen, the Marquis of Lome, Earl of Derby and others, who have advertised this country, and are doing it still. I think the member for Colchester has not been properly informed if he thinks that one example of an illiterate topographer who made a mistake in that map shown by the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa), represents the ignorance of the English people with regard to Canada. I know that the people of England generally are well acquainted with the map of British North America. The reason why Englishmen do not come to Canada in greater numbers is because England has such immense territories to fill up in other parts of the world. She has colonized Australia within the last fifty years, she has colonized New Zealand, she is colonizing South Africa. Wherever the sun shines, wherever there is money to be made, Englishmen are always ready to go. If we will wait our time England will fill up this country the same as she is filling up others. I think the immigration office is doing its duty. A few days ago I saw in a newspaper published in the Midland counties of England a letter written by Lord Strathcona, the Canadian High Commissioner, setting forth reasons why the English peasantry should emigrate to Canada. I know that Lord Strathcona has bought at his own expense a great number of maps and distributed them among the schools of England, and the immigration department also has sent descriptive maps to the rural schools of England. I think it is only a question of time when the people of the British Isles will find that Canada is an excellent field for emigrants.
But there is another point to which I wish to call attention. We should be very careful whom we send there to represent us. If we send men there of the stamp and enthusiasm of the member for Colchester, they will bring out immigrants in multitudes ; there will not be enough vessels in England to bring the people that will want to come after they hear the member for Colchester speak. But if we send men like the individual we have heard about to-day, who says that he is making no effort to bring Irishmen to this country, that he does not urge them to come, that he would rather they stayed at home, then we cannot expect the British people to come here. We have got to be very careful whom we send. We artist send men who are loyal to our country and are loyal to Great Britain. I am sorry indeed to learn that 95
this government selected as immigration agent a man who is not loyal to our country.
I think this government should take steps to bring out the best class of people that can be found. We heard last session from the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) that the class of people they were bringing out were very indifferent We know that the class of people we are sprung from are not indifferent, and we must make an effort to bring more of them here. There is one good reason why Immigration from the British Isles is at a low ebb just now. For the last two or three years a great many of their young men have been required to fill up the ranks in order to keep the empire together. We know too that the county councils, the township councils, the urban councils in England have gone into works of public improvement such as sewage work, the supply of towns with water, and these works afford employment to a great many men. Very few men will leave their home when they can get a fair living. I think that the immigration department are making an effort to fill up the vast territories we have in the west. The lust year's crop has well advertised our country and the men who are already settled there are writing letters back to their friends in the old country, and these letters will do far more to bring out people than the immigration department are doing.


George Taylor: I want to inform my hon. friend from Grenville (Mr. Reid) that he is labouring under a mistake if he thinks Mr. Jury is serving his time in Liverpool for $1,200 a year. If he wil turn to the Auditor General's Report, L-15, he will find that Mr. Jury gets a salary of $1,800 a year, and $897 for his board, and that he draws in perquisites $10,205.16 for maintaining that little office on a back street. I also want to tell the minister that we on this side of the House are pretty well acquainted with Mr. Jury. The hon. minister said that if we knew him as well as he did we would know him to be a man of ability. I think he is just as well known to most of us as he is to the minister, because, previous to the advent to power of hon. gentlemen opposite, Mr. Jury, who was a Toronto tailor and a Liberal agitator, travelled through -this country speaking in the interests of hon. gentlemen opposite. We know pretty well who Mr. Jury is. He came into my county and into my town and stumped against me during my first or second election-I forget which. We are pretty well acquainted with Mr. Jury and we do not think he has the qualifications of a good immigration agent, although he is good on the platform as a lecturer. I do not think, being a Toronto tailor, that he would be able to enlighten the farmers very much on the question of how to farm. The hon. minister did not reply to the inquiry I made as to what he wanted with these 101,500



copy books at four cents apiece. He paid $4,0G0 to his friends in London, the Reid Bros, for these copy books. I want to know in what way they were used to assist immigration.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We conceived the idea of having a number of copy books prepared and circulated in the schools of Great Britain in which the head lines were statements in regard to Canada, and in which the facts respecting the geography, resources and that sort of thing were briefly summarized. We had these prepared and circulated in the schools so that the children using these copy books would acquire a knowledge of Canada. We had replies from a large number of people connected with these schools of a very complimentary character, and I am quite satisfied that this has proved a very effective means of disseminating knowledge and of giving practical information to the school children of Great Britain.


George Taylor: I think the hon. minister should supply each member of the opposition with a copy of all these productions.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I should be most happy to do so.


George Taylor: I have not seen a copy of it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Now that my attention is drawn to that I may say that when there is anything of special importance got out I generally direct that copies be sent to every member of the House tout, this being a small thing published in Great Britain, no attention was paid to it.


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).: Mr. Chairman, before this item is adopted. I would like to offer a few remarks, realizing more especially the great importance of this subject, and if there has been any doubt upon that question there surely cannot be any doubt now after the eloquent speeches we have heard from our hon. friends on the other side of the House and especially from the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gour-ley). The committee, I am sure, listened to-night, with a great deal of attenton to the eloquent statement made by the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton). Immigration is, I believe, of all questions, one which should not be considered from a party point of view. It is the infusion of new blood into this country. Immigration is, as has been truly said, the most important question with which this country has to deal, and if in the past all Canadians, regardless of origin or nationality, witnessed with pain the exodus which existed in this country for so many long years, the exodus which resulted in 2,000,000 Canadians leaving our country and settling in the United States and who to-day are citizens under the American flag, it is certainly a source of gratification to learn that at the present


George Taylor: moment, while the exodus has not been entirely stopped, there is a change in the tide and that immigration is coming towards our country. I have the honour of representing a county in one of the older provinces of Canada. The province of Quebec contributed their share, as I believe the province of Ontario did also, towards acquiring, building up and opening up our great western country. The province of Ontario and the province of Quebec paid out millions upon millions of dollars to make the North-west country what it is today, and to create, if possible, there, a granary for the world. The progress which is being made in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories surely is satisfactory to all citizens of Canada regardless of province because the greatness of the North-west Territories means the greatness of Canada. But, Mr. Chairman, satisfactory as has been the progress of western Canada, satisfactory as may be this immigration from the British isles, and the continent of Europe and from the United States, satisfactory as I believe have been the efforts of the present hon. Minister of the Interior and his officials in bringing about the present state of affairs, there is a kindred subject to immigration which I think should not be overlooked and which, in the province of Quebec, we consider to be on a par of importance. That is colonization. The province of Quebec has for many years past given a great deal of attention to this subject and only during the last session of our provincial legislature a special commission was appointed to inquire into the cause and if possible to bring about a remedy for this state of affairs. This commission is to be composed of men of both political parties and they are to endeavour to solve if possible once and for all this problem of the exodus of the citizens of Quebec to the United States. I am glad to know that the efforts that the Department of the Interior have put forth in the past are to toe continued in the future. This very morning I had the satisfaction of attending a deputation which called upon the right hon. the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and the hon. Minister of the Interior, composed of the leading citizens of the city of Quebec, men of both political parties, men occupying positions of importance in politics, in the public life, and in the business life of the province, who came and asked the Dominion government not to give up altogether the work of colonization in the older provinces. Colonization is one of the very few subjects, which, under the British North America Act comes within the jurisdiction and scope of both the federal and provincial governments. We have, therefore, in the province of Quebec, reason to expect that the Dominion government, while carrying on the vigorous policy of immigration towards the North-west Territories, while if possible peopling that immense territory with citizens of our own blood and gaining other citizens from the

United States who will easily become adapted to our Canadian institutions, will not overlook this all important fact that it is more important to keep one Canadian in the country than to bring in two strangers. We have in the province of Quebec a peculiar condition of affairs which calls for the attention of the minister and of his staff. We have a population which doubles in twenty-seven years. If the province of Quebec had not lost by the emigration of French Canadians who have gone to the United States that province to-day would have been the first province in Canada in the matter of population, and in the very last census it is the only province which has shown a satisfactory increase in population. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is important that the Dominion government should not over look this subject of colonization. We have the assistance of the local government and we have in the districts of Montreal and in the districts of Quebec the co-operation of men headed by the Roman Catholic clergy who give close attention to this class of colonization. In the city of Quebec we have the Lake St. John Colonization Society, and in the city of Montreal la Societe Gen&rale de Colonisation et de Repatriement de la province de Quebec. During the last five or six years the Lake St. John district has made wonderful progress in colonization. The official report of the society, which devotes itself to the welfare of that region, shows that since 1898, no less than 6,977 bona fide settlers have taken up land there. Mark you, these are Canadians or the descendants of Canadians who have returned from the United States to settle in their native land. The report also shows that in the year 1900, 922 Canadians returned from the United States and took up land in that district, and in the year 1901 the number was 1,013. We have also the evidence that in 1900, 788 fathers of families living in the cities and in different parts of the province, went into the Lake St. John district, instead of as in former years emigrating to the United States. In the year 1901, 872 settlers of a similar character also took up homes in that region. This morning we had the evidence of Mr. Scott, the manager of the Lake St. John Railway, who gave us a partial idea of the immense resources of that vast region ; its great lakes ; its immense water powers ; its grand rivers and the unlimited field which it opens up for the pulp industry, and which when developed will enable Canada to lead in the vanguard of Norway and Sweden, the countries which in the past have supplied Europe with pulp for the manufacture of paper. There are other matters connected with this question to which I wish to call the attention of the minister and of the hon. members of this House. I shall speak more particularly for the province of Quebec, because I know there are other hon. gentlemen who will 95i
speak for Ontario and the other provinces. Let us look at what the Canadian Pacific Railway did when it opened up its line from Ottawa to the west. Leaving the district of Ottawa it passed through a barren tract up to Lake Superior, but the company looking for settlers turned its eyes towards the French Canadian population of the province of Quebec. The Canadian Pacific Railway people knew that the French Canadian is a hardy tiller of the soil ; that he will work in the forest for twelve and fifteen hours a day and endure cheerfully all those hardships of pioneer life which other men fear to undertake. The Canadian Pacific Railway encouraged the French Canadian people to settle in that territory and in less than ten years that district of Nipissing and a portion of Algoma, became prosperous and productive. Cannot the Department of the Interior take its cue from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. We have in the province of Quebec the Metapedia Valley, extending from Ste. Flavie to the borders of New Brunswick, through which the Intercolonial Railway runs for 100 miles, and which is now comparatively unpopulated. If the Department of the Interior would apply the same policy to that region as the Canadian Pacific Railway did to the northern part of what is to-day the New Ontario, then in a few years the Metapedia Valley would be settled by a thriving population. There are in the Metapedia Valley to-day a dozen or more thriving parishes, but there is room there for 50 parishes. The climate is probably the mildest in the entire province. Its proximity to the Ocean makes its climate at least twelve degrees warmer than that of any portion of the province of Quebec. I would ask the Minister of the Interior in his colonization work, to pay special attention to that region. There is one very strong reason why the government should do this. We know that the receipts from the Intercolonial Railway are not as satisfactory as they might be and we know that that particular part of the road hardly pays working expenses. From the standpoint of the Dominion Exchequer it would, therefore, be sound policy for this government to encourage colonization in that district, because it goes without saying that the more people you have there the more the Intercolonial Railway will earn. But there is a more patriotic reason still. There is the patriotic object of keeping Canadians in their own land. Every day French Canadian farmers and artisans from different parts of the province apply to the colonization society in Montreal to be directed towards new spheres of labour. If these people are not taken in hand anQ pointed to a new opening in life the chances are that they will drift to the United States to become white slaves in the factories of New England, as unfortunately thousands and thousands of their fellow countrymen have done before them. The French Canadian

priests in the province of Quebec are strenuous in their endeavours to keep Canadians at home ; but when these people make up their minds that life is no longer possible upon the old homestead in the old parish, they flock into the cities of the province, or else they leave for a foreign land. This colonization society warned in advance can extend its helping hand to these men and can point them to a new lease of life in the undeveloped fields of their native land, rather than to exile. There is no family In the province of Quebec which would not infinitely prefer life in the fatherland, to exile abroad. These colonization societies have received in the past some help from this government, as also from the provincial government, but I would like to see the Department of the Interior extend its work in this direction and encourage the societies to a still greater extent than at present. There are no more suitable men on the face of the earth to undertake pioneer work in a country like the Metapedia Valley, rich in natural resources, than are the i>eople of the province of Quebec. I am a Liberal; I come from Liberal stock; I respect the religion of every man, but at the same time the foreigners who settle in this country, are nothing to me as compared with my own countymen, the descendants of the pioneers of Canadian civilization. These are the men I would infinitely prefer to see retained in Canada. It is to their retention in their native land I would rather see our resources directed, than towards the encouragement of immigration from foreign lands. I submit that the best way to keep our people at home is to encourage these colonization societies. I earnestly commend that view to the Minister of the Interior. I have spoken more particularly of the Metapedia Valley because 1 represent that district. I must say that the Intercolonial Railway management has already recognized the importance of this region as a field for settlement by granting during the last six months, the low rates to the settlers which have prevailed on the Canadian Pacific Railway for years past. At the present time a large excursion of 400 or 500 people is being organized in the French Canadian centres of the United States to visit that district, and I would like the government here to make a special effort to bring about happy results from that and similar movements. Before closing I would point out that it is not only the colonization societies who are directing their efforts towards the possibilities of developing that region, but I notice that the capitalists are also paying their attention to Gaspesia, which comprises Bonaventure and Gaspfi counties. We received to-day a prospectus from the Atlantic Pulp and Paper Company, which has a capital of $3,000,000, and of which the president is the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Edwards). That company proposes to start three mills in that district: a paper mill with a daily capacity of 54 Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).
tons ; a ground wood pulp mill with a daily capacity of 50 tons and a sulphide pulp mill with a daily capacity of 40 tons. We have heard a great deal of Sault Ste Marie, and of its great natural resources. But this fact must not be overlooked, that the whole resources of Canada do not lie in the western part of Canada-that the old provinces also have resources which should be husbanded. We have had evidences of that in the last few years, in the district of Three Rivers, where Shawinigan and Grand Mere have risen as if by enchantment, and are to-day attracting attention in the industrial worid ; and we have the developments down by the sea. Therefore, while the colonization department of this Dominion is devoting its best efforts to bringing immigrants from Europe, especially Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotchmen and Welshmen, who have done so much for this Dominion, with whom we descendants of the French Canadian race have entered into a compact, sealed in former years by the blood of heroes for the building up of this Dominion, we all learn with satisfaction, regardless of party and regardless of origin, that that department is first and above all determined to keep in this country the sons of the soil, and help them to live and bring up their families to become good citizens of Canada.


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: I need not add anything to what the hon. gentleman for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) has so eloquently expressed. I also represent a county in another part of the province of Quebec where this work of immigration is going on. I wish to emphasize the fact that we are too much inclined to forget the burdens which the older provinces have placed on their shoulders in connection with these matters of immigration and colonization. Not only have they placed upon themselves an enormous debt for the building of a railroad through the North-west country, but they have also assumed the whole burden of the expenses connected with the colonization of their own territories. Some of our people are alarmed in the province of Quebec at the amount of debt which we have put on our shoulders, though we are not alarmed as a rule. Nine-tenths of that debt has been incurred in order to keep our people in our own province. When I find by the census, though the result is not entirely satisfactory, that the province of Quebec is the only province which has succeeded in keeping its: rural population, and that it shows a little increase in that direction, I do not regret the money we have spent. I quite agree with what the hon. member for Bonaventure has said as to the means that should be taken by this government to help the colonization work of the provincial governments, the government of Ontario and the government of Quebec especially. We must not forget that increased population adds no revenue or very little to the provinces,

while it Increases the number of consumers and therefore adds to the revenue of the Dominion.
Another point on which I agree entirely with the hon. member for Bonaventure is that we French Canadians have no objection at all to the policy of the hon. Minister of the Interior, who, I think, will' admit that he has had no more straight supporters than the representatives from the province of Quebec, especially on this side of the House, for his policy in sending so many agents abroad to bring people to this country. We are so exclusively Canadian that we hope that the people who come to this country will become as good Canadians as we are. We have no objection to people coming, especially from the British Isles, who have not the same language or education as we have, but in these respects resemble our fellow-Canadians of English origin. I hope therefore that a report of certain remarks of the deputy minister of the Interior which has been sent to me is not a correct report. I And in a paper which has nothing to do with Canadian politics, and has no interest in one party more than the other, the ' North Express ' of Liverpool, dated the 10th of February, the following :


The Hon.  J. A.@: Smart, Deputy Minister ot the Interior for Canada, and Mr. T. R. Preston, immigration agent-general for the Dominion, arrive in Liverpool to-day from London and Glasgow to arrange a gigantic system of British emigration to Canada.
It then goes on to give the details of the project, after which follows a little paragraph of which I am sure the hon. Minister of the Interior will be happy to give an explanation, and tell us that there must be some mistake in the report. It is entitled ' British hlood needed,' and says :
The present, therefore, is deemed a favourable moment to turn the attention of British emigrants to Canada, whi:h has been neglected by them in the past, and is now in crying need of population to till her soil and develop her great mineral riches. More ^British blood is also needed to. be infused into the veins of the Dominion, if Canada is not to be Frenchified by the rapid growth of the French population.
If that had reference to immigration from France, I would quite agree with the gentleman that an overflow of immigration from France, stronger than British immigration, would not be agreeable to the loyal feelings of this country; but if the gentleman meant- which if this report is correct be must have meant-that the rapid increase of French Canadians was a danger to Canada, I hope the minister will take this occasion to say that there is no danger in the increase of the French Canadian population. The past is a proof that the French Canadians are no danger to this country from any point of view, whether industrial, agricultural, material or intellectual. They have done their duty not only by themselves, but by their neighbours in this country, and by the British crown ; and I think it is 'a great mistake that it should go abroad in the old country that there is a certain element in Canada the natural increase of which might be regarded as a danger to this country or a danger to the British crown.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Nobody believes it.


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: I hope not. I am simply making this point-not that I believe the deputy minister, certainly not with the assent of the Minister of the Interior, made any remarks like these, intending to be offensive to the French Canadians-but we know, from articles published in certain newspapers in this country, that the attention of the British people is always called to the fact that the French Canadian people are growing more rapidly than others, and that there is a danger of this country being Frenchified. So far as the rapid increase of the French Canadian population is concerned, I admit it, though I am not one of the responsible parties ; but I am sure that is not a crime that should be charged against the French Canadians. What I am objecting to is the statement that by the rapid increase of the French Canadian population, this country is being F renchified.
We are French by origin and are proud of it, and certainly have no reason not to be. There is one fact which cannot fail to impress itself upon all'those who have any knowledge of the different provinces of the Dominion, and that is that of all the elements that compose our population, there is not one more attached to the Canadian soil than the Canadians of French origin. It is ail attachment based on common sense. The French Canadian has no attachment other than to Canadian soil and to Canadian institutions, and the more rapidly we grow, the more French Canadians we bring back from the New England towns in the eastern states, the better will be the result as regards Canadian institutions and allegiance to Britain. British allegiance is not a question of blood with us but of loyalty and common sense. If I have brought up this matter, it is not witlLthe object of casting any reflections on the minister in charge of the department; but it is to be regretted that statements of this kind should appear in the British press as well as in the English press of Canada, and it is for that reason that I ask for an explanation by the hon. minister. I would conclude, as I have begun, by assuring my hon. friend that lie will never find a more faithful supporter of his immigration policy than myself. But I want to insist that in all our immigration policy, we should have an eye solely for the benefit of Canada and not be actuated by any Idea of preventing French Canadians from gaining influence in this country, or from enjoying that influence which is due to the position they occupy ; and should that position become stronger in the future, let the

hon. minister's mind be at rest, for even if we should become a majority in this country, it will be as safe in the hands of the French Canadian majority as it would be in the hands of any of the otljer races which compose our population at present.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: With reference to the printing of some of the books in London, to which my hon. friend has referred, the facts are explained in this way : Some of the printing was done under the direction of the officials in the High Commissioner's office, and the particular literature referred to was issued without direct communication with the department here. I may say that we have made a change with regard to the issuing of literature, and have concluded that it is better it should be prepared here instead of being prepared and printed in London. It will therefore in future be prepared at the head office here, and any maps that may be issued will first pass through the hands of the geographer of this department, which I am sure will be a guarantee to my hon. friend that they will be correct. I must "call the attention of my hon. friend from Labelle (Mr. Kourassa) to the fact that the paper he cited does not exactly purport to give the statement printed as an interview, and no doubt he has noted that distinction. I think, however, that he himself must know the deputy minister of the department too well not to be satisfied that he did not make any statement of the kind. I inquired of my deputy whether he was responsible for any such statement, and he said he was not, and attributed it to the enthusiasm of this British reporter. As to the general question of colonization in Quebec and elsewhere, the committee will appreciate the difficulty which the department meets when called upon to incur expenditure for the purpose of transplanting people from one part of the country to another. While avowedly we do not engage in work of that kind, the importance of which my hon. friend has so eloquently referred to, when the machinery of the department can be used for that purp :se, we have not hesitated to make use of it, even if it entails some additional expense; and as my hon. friend from Bona-venture will admit, we have done a considerable amount of work in that direction. As regards the Lake St. John district, we have paid out a considerable amount of money to the Lake St. John Railway Company to aid it in conducting this work, which it has done through its own officials. We have also paid something to the repatriation society. The application to which my hon. friend from Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) refers, will receive careful consideration, and I think that the department will be well sustained, if I can judge by the feeling of the committee, in allowing its machinery to be made use of to the fullest possible extent for the purpose of assisting the natural movement of oir population Mr. BOURASSA.
from the older portions of the eastern provinces to our newer territories. We are doing the same thing in Ontario. Our officers assist very largely in the movement of the population of that province from the older to the newer portion, and wherever they can contribute to the success of any such movement, they are only too ready to do so.


Samuel Hughes: Does the hon. minister say that he assists the movement of people from the older parts of one province to the newer parts of the same province ?
Mr. LaRIVIERE. From one part of Canada to another.


Samuel Hughes: No, I understood him to say that he encourages his officers to assist the people moving from the older part of one province to its newer part.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We do not make any distinction between one province and another. We take the country as a whole, and assist the movement from one part of it to another.


Samuel Hughes: I would like to impress on the minister the fact that people who want to move from the maritime provinces to-day to settle in the great Canadian North-west, cannot do it as advantageously as if they came from the New England States. In fact they find it cheaper to go to the New England States first and then go to the North-west, as they can get lower rates on the railways. It is cheaper for them to go to Boston and ship from there rather than go direct over our own Canadian Pacific Railway.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is worse than that. It would pay a man to go from Boston to Liverpool and then go to Winnipeg than to go direct from Boston to Winnipeg. So far the department has been utterly powerless to grapple with that difficulty. We have that difficulty, the people of eastern Canada have that difficulty, and it is one that, so far, the department has been utterly powerless to grapple with. We have tried all sorts of schemes to get over it. A plan that has been suggested time and again, is that we get the railways to combine and offer for, say a month in the year, a special rate to intending settlers. But there are two difficulties in the way. In the first place, it is impossible to get the railways to agree to it, and, in the second place our good friends of the eastern provinces do not like it. They say that it is encouraging people to move away who otherwise would stay at home, and, probably, do well. Whether there is anything in that, it is hard to say. But the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes, Victoria) will recognize the difficulty in the situation.


Samuel Hughes: I do recognize it, and my object in bringing it forward is

that the minister may have the officers of the department consider it, so that, if there is any way of having the boys from the maritime provinces who go to Boston and elsewhere in the United States and take labouring jobs, become settlers in the Canadian North-west, it may be done. That is an important object. There is another point to which I will take the liberty of directing the attention of the committee.
1 address myself particularly to my good friend from Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) for 1 wish to make him happy. He spoke of my good friend the Deputy Minister of the Interior referring to the danger of this country being Frenchified through colonization schemes. It was my priviledge to visit two settlements in the Canadian North-west made up almost wholly of French people from old France. These settlements are illustrations of the fact that it is not necessary to get the old country farmer to become a farmer in Canada. My own theory is that the old country farmers do not adapt themselves as readily to farming in this country as do the old country mechanics. One of the best farms that it has been my privilege to see in the North-west-that is, for only three or four years of settlement- is managed by a former London pastrycook, who had never been in the country in his life in England, but had his first experience of life outside the city when he came to Canada. The French settlements to which 1 refer are made up almost entirely of people who have never been on farms in their lives until they came to this country. One fine-looking lady had been manager of a large millinery store, and her husband had been a watchmaker in Paris. These people have been doing well in our North-west. And I want to tell my good friend from Labelle that they are readily adapting themselves to the ways of the country. They have only been in these settlements two years, yet they have made very rapid progress, adding a knowledge of, English to that of their own beautiful mother tongue. 1 may be a little prejudiced in favour of immigration. It has been my privilege to meet the Doukhobors, the Galicians, and, of course, the Menuonites, and all that class of immigrants who have come in from continental Europe. And I want to tell this committee and this country that we owe to these people one thing at all events-they have taught Canadians to value their own country. These people, in many cases, are living on tracts that Canadians would not have thought of colonizing. Take, for instance, the Snipe Hills, a locality that my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) must know well. People from Ontario would never think of settling such a country. I wish to assure you, Mr. Chairman, that among those hills to-niglit are hundreds of as happy homes-that is, as comfortablelooking homes, and comfort usually brings happiness-as in any part of Canada. And these people have been there only a few
years. The verdict of the English-speaking people in that region, people from Carleton and Renfrew counties in Ontario, is that they want no finer neighbours than these people. But, I am free to say that they are of the better class of European immigrants. West of that, around Beaver lake, there is a settlement that does not meet with the approval of the hon. member for Alberta, and I must confess that some are rather an indolent and doless class of people, taken, I presume, from a poor settlement in the old country But, as I say, these people from the continent of Europe have taught us that we have a country iu the North-west that is illimitable in its capacity for the production of wealth and in the opportunities it offers for the making of homes by harvest settlers.
It may not be amiss to point out a few of the reasons why our great North-west has possibilities which we down in the eastern provinces are apt to underestimate. It is often said that this territory is away north, and therefore is not habitable. Let us place before ourselves a map of the world, and consider the latitude of the finest parts of England and compare it with our own Canadian North-west. Go far north of Edmonton, and you find you are only in the latitude of the northern part of England. Even the Peace River region is in about the same latitude as the south of Scotland. Another glance at the map and you see the Rocky Mountain range running down from Canada into the United States. From Mount Sherman, the highest peak in the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific in the United States is about 1,250 miles. Until you get near the coast, not a foot of that is less than five or six thousand feet high. And there is not a pass through those mountains in the United States from the 49th parallel to the plains of New Mexico that is less than seven thousand nine hundred feet high. Therefore, the warm air current from the ocean which seek to reach the plains of the western United States must traverse a mountain range varying from 5,000 to 8,000 feet high throughout its entire area, while the point of crossing the plains would be not less than 7,900 feet. Further, what do we find in the United States ? I happened to be in Texas and Kansas in January last. The temperature there varied from nine to seventeen degrees below zero. There was a penetrating wind that chilled one to the marrow and froze the cattle in great lium-bers. The people of those regions are realizing that these raw winds are intolerable. And, besides, they have drawbacks in the summer in the way of malaria and hot winds.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: They should come to Canada.


Samuel Hughes: They are coming to Canada in thousands. When you come into our North-west the first pass is the Crow's Nest, 4,000 feet high. Then,

the Canadian Pacific Railway passes through the Kicking Horse at 5,400 feet. North of that, is the Yellow Head Pass, 3,700 feet high, and then the Pine River Pass from 2,400 to 2,800 feet high, and, still further north, the Peace River Pass 2,000 feet high. Beyond that the passes in the Rocky Mountains are even lower, though the Cascade or Coast Range may be higher. The passes anywhere in Canada are from 5,000 down to 2,000 feet high. A glance at the map will show that the distance from the plains to the coast, instead of being 1,200 miles is only from 250 to 300 miles, and, in the southern part, 400 miles. Therefore the warm wirjds from the Japanese current- crossing the ocean they follow the same law that regulates the currents-pass rapidly through the low passes in the Canadian ranges and 'spread themselves over the plains, bringing fertility to the soil and establishing conditions most favourable to agricultural development.
Another point that it may be worth while to state here-because the members of this House should be the exponents of the advantage of our country-is that, the northern Atlantic ocean opens into the Arctic ocean! without let or hindrance, and the icebergs from the Arctic region pass into the Atlantic ocean untrammelled. Of course there are other cold currents flowing. But the northern Pacific ocean is closed, practically speaking, Behring Straits is very narrow, and we find the northern Pacific ocean is not subjected to the great icebergs and ice floes that exercise such a chilling influence upon the eastern coast of Canada. Any one who has crossed the ocean knows when he is approaching an iceberg. An ice floe can be experienced hours and hours before one sees it, the chill in the atmosphere is so great. This is all spread into the northern Atlantic ocean, because of the narrow entrance from the Arctic into 'the northern Pacific.
Moreover our great Canadian North-west reaps a benefit from the warm winds coming from eastern Asia which cross the western coast of North America, you may say in general terms, from the boundary of the United States, northward to Alaska. I may point out in passing that the temperature at the island of Sitka, in Alaska, has fallen to zero only once in the last 45 years. There is another reason. The northern regions away up in Athabasca, northern Alberta and Saskatchewan, vary from 500 to 2,00Q feet lower than do the plains, even along the Canadian border on the 49tli parallel, or away down in Montana or Dakota. The altitude is much lower, and the scientific rule for altitudes affecting heat, I believe, is that it varies about one degree for every 200 feet of altitude ; that is, if you descend 200 feet the temperature decreases one degree, other things being equal. I may also point out that the vast lakes in our great Canadian North-west, while possibly retarding the early opening of spring, neverthe-


Samuel Hughes: less more than counterbalance the lateness of the spring by the lateness of the fall. The water in these lakes, which are more or less shallow, become warmed during the summer and retain their heat in! the fall. Accordingly, take the east and south-eaSt side, and the southern side of any great lake in the Canadian North-west, and you will find the crops along those lakes have never been frozen as early as they have in the open parts where they have not the benefit of these waters. Another point. The sun is north of the equator about 170 or 180 hours more than it is south of the equator, in a year. Figure that up. and it amounts to six or seven days of extra sunlight in the northern hemisphere. Northern) latitudes have very long days in summer. I have not made the scientific calculation, but if you figure it up you will find the extra, sunlight these remote northern regions get over regions even in our own latitude here, about 45 degrees, or away up anywhere north of the 52nd, 53rd, 54th or 55th parallels of latitude, and you will find in those regions an average of fully a day or two extra sunlight in the year over what we have here.
There is another reason why we shouldl have high hopes for our magnificent Canadian North-west. Those of you who have heard Dr. Saunders before the committee from time to time lecturing on our great) North-west, have heard him point out that the barren region upon which trees do not grow lies from a point away down in the United States extending north into Canada1 say to the 52nd parallel. Now why does the prairie land not extend far beyond the 52nd parallel towards the north ? Simply this, that once you pass the 52nd and 53rd! degree of north latitude, you come to a1, point that scientists term the region of calms. Any one familiar with the matha-matical geography of the earth knows that the winds blow very strongly in southern .parts ; any one who has travelled through Dakota, Montana, and the southern part of Manitoba and Assiniboia. knows right well that there is scarcely a day of summer! or of winter when strong winds do not prevail in those regions. Go into more northern latitudes, and strong winds are not found to anything like the same extent. Soi scientists term the northern regions the regions of calms.
The fertility of the soil is undoubted. Those who have visited that region have seen oats, and wheat and farm products of every description, raised as successfully and, I believe, more successfully, than in any portion of the province of Ontario) Prof. Macoun states that at Battleford, where there is nothing but a narrow sandj plain, which in Ontario would not be farmed at all, he has nevertheless seen a field immediately adjoining the town that had excellent wheat upon it each year in succes-i sion for 20 years ; and he claims there must| be something in the character of the soil, whether it is that the frost remains in the

ground in the spring and keeps the roots) cool and moist, or whether it is owing to the extra quality of the ground, he does not pretend to say ; but he points out that in those regions, even in arid regions, grain is grown much more successfully than in the province of Ontario. That district has ai future. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see our Canadian boys going up there to settle, I care not whether they are French Canadian or English Canadian, whether they come from Ontario, Quebec or the maritime provinces. I do not want to see ouri boys becoming ditchers and carters in the city of Boston. I want to see them move up to our own North-west and take up farms there. At Wetaskawin you will find a magnificent colony from Prince Edward Island, a splendid lot of young people who moved there from Prince Edward Island, and are doing well. I trust our maritime province members will take this matter in hand, and that gentlemen like the member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), the member for Anti-gonish (Mr. Mclsaac), the member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley), and the member for Lunenburg (Mr. ICaulbach) will take pains to influence these young men, if they want to go anywhere, to go to our own Canadian North-west. But in case we cannot fill our country with our own people, let us do our best to get settlers from the old mother land, that mother of nations ; let us get as many people as we possibly can from Great Britain and Ireland.
And here I must say, in passing, that I disagree with some remarks that have fallen from the Minister of the Interior this afternoon in relation to the necessity existing for Canadian immigration agents in Ireland, bowing, or pandering, or actually believing in the doctrine of home rule. It is not necessary to be a home ruler in Ireland in order to get immigrants to Canada. Sir, I have great faith in the Irish people. I never yet met a people, whether Irish, French, Scotch or English, who, when they are properly educated, when the facts are placed before them, will not seize a truth. I resent the idea that the people of Ireland are all home rulers, that they are all antiBritish. When an immigration agent, sent from this country, paid by this country, says there is no use in his doing anything to encourage the Irish people to come to Canada because they are all anti-British, I tell him that is not true.
I care not what part of Ireland you go to you will find home rulers and yelpers, but from Connemara to Dublin and from Londonderry to the coast of Cork you will find that 90 per cent of the people are true at heart to the British empire, and if there are home rulers it is merely because they have been pandered to by the kind of talk that the immigration agent sent from Canada has indulged in and they have been pandered to for political purposes, besides which they have not been educated in the
proper way. I have faith in the Irishmen, too much faith to believe that they are the kind of men that this immigration agent would have us believe they are. Then, in ease we shall have filled up our country,
I have this faith, Sir, that by educating the people instead of cringing to their bad habits, to understand and appreciate our institutions and our civil and religious liberties and by establishing our school system properly amongst them, I have faith that whether we have a Galician colony or a Doukhobor district, or a settlement of people from Roumania or Transylvania or from any other European country, the Canadian national spirit and the Canadian national life is so strong and vigorous that we can make goo.d Canadian citizens of them in a generation or two. It is not long since the Icelanders in thousands were brought to Canada. Our good friends now on the government side of the House who were then in opposition placarded this country from one end of it to the other, as I am sorry to see both sides are now doing in regard to the Galicians and Doukliobors, and said that they would not be any use to the Dominion of Canada, that they were seal eaters and fish eaters and that sort of thing. Ask the officials of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, ask the people of Winnipeg and of the North-west Territories who are the finest men to work, who are the finest women to work and they will tell you that they are the people belonging to this same race of Icelanders. The children of these Icelanders who have been born in Canada are as fine a looking race as you will find anywhere. Unfortunately it is the custom in this country and it will be for a time to come to form little race cliques and coteries and to pander to them for political purposes and we have evidence of this from time to time, but I believe, Sir, that that will /soon pass away. Those who have studied the history of England know that for hundreds of years there was a struggle, and it has not altogether passed away yet, between the various old counties, each representing 'settlements from continental Europe, and to this hour you can distinguish the dialects that have been in exist- , ence in England for hundreds of years. We can all remember reading about the old Robin Hood days. These were incidents of the struggle between races, but these contentions have now passed away and we have to-day a fusion in that country of the best blood the world can produce. After the lapse of time-it will not come in our day- but the day will come in Canada when each nationality, while preserving its own peculiar characteristics, brought up in the broad, strong, national life of Canada, educated to understand our constitution, educated to understand free institutions and responsible government in the broadest sense, educated in tolerant national schools,

will combine to form the grandest race that the continent of North America or the world has yet produced.


Mr. A. E. TALBOT (Bellechasse).: Translation.) Mr. Chairman, at this advanced stage of the debate, I do not intend to take up at length the time of this House; and even did I feel so inclined, I do not think I should feel equal to the task, after what has fallen from the mouth of the hon. member (Mr. J. Hughes) who has just addressed the House. As a matter of fact, his description of icebergs and ice floes from the Arctic Ocean, and of the cold currents which spread themselves even through the beautiful river St. Lawrence, in my own province, has exercised such a chilling influence upon me that, as I said, I feel unequal to the task of taking part in the debate at any great length.
Under those circumstances, X shall confine myself to one subject, and it is in connection with the demand made by the deputation of the Colonization Society of the province of Quebec, which waited this morning upon the Minister of the Interior, to report about their operations.
I.ast: year, the province of Quebec, through the agency of that society, obtained a grant of three thousand dollars. With this grant, they have been enabled to place upon the vacant lands of the province one thousand immigrants. And to-day, they have pressed upon the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior, when the estimates of his department are up for discussion, the desirability of doubling the appropriation, which would enable them to bring back to Canada three times as many immigrants as they did last year.
Mr. Chairman, there is one thing which is a matter of deep regret to us, French Canadians, from the province of Quebec : it is the lamentable exodus that has taken away such a large number of our fellow-countrymen, from the province of Quebec, within the last twenty-five or thirty years, who have annually found, their way over the border, in the hope of bettering their position. But a great change has come over the country, and now our exiled fellow-countrymen of French extraction are willing to come back to the homes of their fathers. What we press upon the attention of the government is this, that they should bring as much energy to the prosecution of immigration work in the New England States as they are devoting to missionary work in the western states, so as to bring back to their native soil immigrants which are as desirable a class of settlers as any immigrants that can be induced to settle in the western states.
I should like to urge upon the hon. Minister of the Interior the desirability of sending out some of his agents to canvass in the New England States. I feel confident that tlie hon. minister will not turn a deaf ear Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
to my prayer and that he will respond to my earnest appeal, by directing bis agents to carry on in the New England States a similar work to that which is now being pursued in the western states of the Union ; for the purpose of repatriating French Canadians who have gone from the province of Quebec to the United States. I appeal to the hon. minister in favour of granting to the Immigration and Colonization Society of the province of Quebec-a society which numbers eight hundred members-the increase for which they are applying. This is, it is true, a matter of public expenditure, but I do not think public money could be put to a better use than bringing back to this country as desirable a class of settlers ns those wiho are induced to settle in the western states, and a better class, I dare say, than the immigrants coming from the different countries of Europe.
It is by no means a parish policy that I am now advocating ; for, whether those immigrants be directed towards the Metapedia valley, as stated by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) ; or whether they be settled in the north, as the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) would have it; whether again they be directed towards the North-west Territories or to Manitoba, is perfectly indifferent to me, so long as those French Canadians who are willing to come back to their native soil are given the same inducements and offered the same advantages as those given to immigrants from foreign countries.
We have thousands and thousands of French Canadians who are longing to come back to the land of their fathers. Those Canadians are scattered through the New England States and throughout the country to the west of the Mississippi. What I most earnestly desire, and it is a consummation devoutly to be wished for, is that the Department of the Interior should take the necessary steps to repatriate those of our fellow-countrymen who live in the United States ; and that they be given by the department every possible assistance and all desirable facilities of transportation.
As I said a moment ago, the conditions are quite different from what they were when the stream of immigration set in the direction of the neighbouring republic ; and when our fellow-countrymen began to drift towards the New England States, to become white slaves in the American factories. A great change has come over the country, and nowadays Canada is attracting the attention of the whole world.
On these several grounds, I hope the hon. Minister of the Interior will see his way clear to comply with the wishes and views of the Immigration and Colonization Society of the province of Quebec, as set forth by the delegation which waited upon the hon. minister, this very morning ; the more so, as their demands are by no means ex-

aggerated and that they are conducive to the promotion of colonization and the development of the country.
Contingencies in Canadian, British and foreign agencies, and general immigration expenses, including salaries of extra clerks at head office, $333,000.


Robert Laird Borden: This was included in the statement that the hon. gentleman has already given.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to say a word on a subject that has already been mentioned, namely : whether or not the efforts of the department might not be with advantage directed to persons who are emigrating from Canada, and more particularly from the eastern provinces. The hon. gentleman stated that no effort was made to retain such people here except by giving them information. I recognize the difficulty of dealing with that matter, but it does seem to me that the question of immigration into this country and the question of emigration from this country, are very intimately connected. I do not know that the difficulties are so great as the Minister of the Interior suggests. For example, the hon. gentleman apparently acquiesces in the position which Mr. Devlin takes in Ireland, that he can do effective immigration work there although he does not urge the people to leave that country. I am not mentioning that for the purpose of criticising it at present, as it has been dealt with by other speakers. But, might not the same idea be carried out with regard to the eastern provinces. The minister says that there is the objection that the older provinces do not want their population depleted. Well, if you put an agent in the eastern provinces who would act upon exactly the same principles as these which have the approval of the minister with regard to Mr, Devlin, 1 do not think there could be any objection. What I mean is : That without urging them to leave the eastern provinces you might go among these people who are leaving, and try to induce them to go to the North-west. In that way you might induce some of the people who are now going to the United States to settle in our western country, especially if you gave them some of the assistance which you are now offording to people from other countries to come to Canada. I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject to say that there is anything in the suggestion I offer, but it does seem to me that when with one hand we are spending money very lavishly to induce people to come to this country, and on the other hand we are making no efforts to direct the people who are leaving the older provinces towards the North-west, we are possibly not doing all we might in regard to that particular matter. I am quite in accord
with these gentlemen who have said that it is quite as important, indeed possibly more important, to direct our efforts towards keeping our own people in our own country, than towards inducing people from Europe to come here.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I quite recognize the force of what the hon. leader of the opposition has said. My own personal inclinations have been much in that direction, but I have been restrained from doing more than I have done, largely from the fear that my efforts in that respect might not meet with the approval of the House. I have so far confined the efforts of the department largely to co-operation with the colonization societies and provincial governments, and to giving information. In addition to that, in some cases we have advertised the free grants of land and the homestead conditions in different parts of Canada. So far as the province of Ontario is concerned, I would suppose that the information with regard to the west is very complete, but in the province of Quebec, I think, perhaps, something could be done, and possibly in the maritime provinces more could be done than anywhere else, because being so far from Western Canada they are not brought into contact with our literature, and the difficulty and expense of transportation are so great that unless there is some counteracting influence, the natural movement will be to the United States. I shall give the whole subject the best consideration I can, and if any practical suggestion should be made I shall be happy to consider it.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Minister of Finance, House adjourned at 12.10 a.m., Friday.


HOUSE 0E COMMONS.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, April 18, 1902.