1902-03-10

CERTIFICATE OF ELECTION.


Mr. SPEAKER.: I have the honour to inform the House that the Clerk of the House has received from the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery a certificate of the election and return of Duncan Alexander Stewart, Esq., for the Electoral District of Lisgar.



MEMBER INTRODUCED.

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Duncan Alexander Stewart, Esq., member for the Electoral District of Lisgar, introduced by the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and Mr. W. F. McCreary.

Mr.  A. W.@: PUTTEE (Winnipeg) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 32) to amend the Conciliation Act of 1900. He said : The object of the Bill is to widen the scope and extend the application of the present Conciliation Act. That Act is restricted to the sphere of voluntary conciliation, but although it has only been in force during the past two years, it has become evident that its scope should be extended. During the past year there have been industrial disturbances which the Act was unable to touch. At present, when differences occur between employers and employees, the minister has power to order an inquiry, and then he may, on the application of either employer or employee, appoint a conciliator, and in addition, on the application of both parties to the dispute, he may appoint an arbitrator, who will proceed with the arbitration and make an award, but acceptance or observance of the award is not compulsory in any respect. The object of my amendment is to broaden the scope of the law by giving a greater initiative to the Labour Department, in the first place, and in the second place by giving the minister power to appoint an arbitrator, on the application of one of the parties to the dispute. This arbitrator will have authority to take evidence under oath, and give a decision, indicating a basis of settlement, a copy of which will be sent to each of the parties and be also published in the ' Labour Gazette.' In the present Act, public opinion and the desire to do justice is what is relied upon to make it operative, and it seems to me that the publication of the award of an independent arbitrator is likely to be more effective.
There is also in my Bill a further provision which I think very necessary, namely, that in no agreement arrived at, either as the result of conciliation or arbitration, must there be any clause compelling an employee to give up membership in any local, national
Bill (No. 33) to amend the Criminal Code.- Mr. German.



ALIEN ACT AMENDMENT.

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Mr. JOHN CHARLTON (North Norfolk) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 34) to further amend the Act restricting the importation and employment of aliens, chap. 11, 60-01 Vic.	,
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Seconded by Mr. Ross ?
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to second any more Bills.


Mr. CHRISTIE.: I will second the Bill. Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.



SECOND READINGS.

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Bill (No. 26) respecting the Quebec and Lake Huron Railway	Company.-Mr. Malouin.
Bill (No. 29) to incorporate the Sovereign Life Assurance Company.-Mr. Campbell.
Bill (No. 30) to incorporate the Sydney Land and Loan Company, Limited.-Mr. Kendall.	[DOT]
Bill (No. 31) respecting the Buffalo Railway Company and the International Railway Company.-Mr. Osier.


Mr. SMITH (Wentworth) asked :: 1.	What steamers has been fitted up with cooling plants to cool the compartments containing perishable products in conformity with agreement with the government of Canada ?
2.	What other steamships than those named in the House by the Minister of Agriculture last year have been fitted with fans to produce a circulation of fresh air in the compartments in which perishable products are carried, if any ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher) :: 1.	The ' Ontarian,' of the Allan Line, the ' Tritonia,' of the Donaldson Line, the ' Devona ' and ' Hurona ' of the Thomson Line, carried products in 1901; other steamers have been and are being fitted for service in 1902.
2.	The ' Corinthian,' ' Orcadian ' and ' Sardinian,' of the Allan Line, the ' Cervona ' of the Thomson Line, the ' Manchester City ' and ' Manchester Commerce ' of the Manchester Liners, the ' Lake Simcoe ' of the Beaver Line.

I.	C. R.-ACCIDENTS THROUGH CATTLE ON TRACK.


Mr. ERB asked :: 1.	How many cattle sheep and horses ware
killed by being struck by engines on the Canadian government railways during each year since 1S90 : (a) At points of intersection of highways ?	(b) Elsewhere on the lines ?
2.	How many engines, if any, were derailed or disabled during each of the same years, owing to their striking cattle, sheep and horses :
(a)	At points of intersection of highways ? (b) Elsewhere on the lines ?
3.	How many railway employees and passengers, if any, were killed or injured on account of engines colliding with cattle, sheep and horses : (a) At points of intersection of highways ? (b) Elsewhere on the lines ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: I shall be obliged to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Erb) to move for a return. The information asked for is very voluminous.
I.	C. R.-PURCHASES OF CANADIAN COAL.


Mr. KENDALL asked :: What quantities of Canadian coal have been purchased by the Railway Department during the last four years ; from what companies, at what prices, and at what points of delivery ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: In this case, also I shall be obliged to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kendall) to move for a return.



ST. CATHARINE'S WATER SUPPLY.

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Mr. LANCASTER-by Mr. Fowler-asked:
What has been done by the government respecting the St. Catharine's water supply, as promised by the Prime Minister on the 18th February, 1901, as reported in ' Hansard ' on page 109 :-
'Mr. Speaker, I cannot inform the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lancaster) if the report distributed of my speech on that occasion is accurate or not, I presume, however, it is substantially correct. The question to which it refers is now undergoing the consideration of the government ?
['Perhaps I may be allowed to explain that that grain did not go over the trunk line to a Canadian port, but\n\nto an American port. If the Canadian Pacific Railway were to take to shipping to American ports, they could move a great deal of grain, just as the Canadian Northern has done.\nMotion (Mr. Douglas) agreed to.']
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: No action has been taken on the subject referred to.



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Mr. DAVIS-by Mr. McCreary-asked :
Does the government intend taking action during the present session on the motion of this House, passed in the session of 1901, approving of the appointment of a railway commission ?
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: My answer to this question is in the affirmative.
I.	C. R.-WHEAT HANDLED BY GOVERNMENT ELEVATOR AT ST. JOHN.
Mr. GANONG-by Mr. Sproule-asked :
What amount was received by the Intercolonial Railway as its proportion of freight on the 146,087 bushels of wheat handled by the


Hon. Mr. FISHER.: government elevator at St. John, N.B., during the year ending 31st December, 1901 ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: The amount earned by the Intercolonial Railway as its proportion of freight on the 146,087 bushels of wheat handled by the government elevator at St. John, N.B., during the year ended 31st December, 1901, was $G,285.8S.


I C. R.-COAL BY CHARTERED STEAMSHIPS.
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Mr. BELL-by Hon. Mr. Haggart-asked:
1.	What was the rate of time charter of the steamship ' Peter Jetson,' engaged to carry coal for the Department of Railways (as mentioned on page W-189 of the Auditor General's Report) ?
2.	What quantity of coal was brought by the ship ?
3.	What was the rate of time charter of the steamship ' Aladdin,' engaged to carry coal for the Department of Railways (as mentioned on page W-189, Auditor General's Report) ?
4.	What quantity of coal was brought by this ship ?
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair) :: 
TRANSFER OF MAILS, ALLANDALE STATION.
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Mr. LENNOX-by Mr. Sproule-asked :
1.	Who has been appointed to transfer the mails at the Allandale railway station ?
2.	What is the date of appointment ?
3.	What remuneration is paid ?
4.	Is the employee solely under the control of the Post Office Department, or partly under the control of the Grand Trunk Railway Company ?
5.	Is any portion of this employee's salary paid by the Grand Trunk Railway Company, by arrangement with the government ?
The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hou. Wm. Muloek).: Where it can be so arranged, it is found more satisfactory to have the railway companies undertake and be responsible for the efficient and prompt transfer of the mails from one train to another at railway points, and this course is being pursued at Allandale, the Grand Trunk being paid at the rate of four hundred dollars a year for the service. The work in question is done under the direction of the Post Office Department.


MECHANICAL ENGINEER, GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO.
Mr. CLARKE asked :: 1. Is the position of mechanical engineer of the government buildings in Toronto vacant ?

If so, who is temporarily discharging the
duties of the office ?
2.	Is it the intention of the government to appoint permanently the person who is now acting as such mechanical engineer ?
3.	If the position has been filled who has been appointed ; and when was the appointment made ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte) :: 1.	Yes. James Cosgrove has been acting temporarily since the 30th of December, 1901.
2.	The appointment is under consideration.
3.	No appointment has yet been made.


TIMBER LIMITS DISPOSED OF BY GOVERNMENT.
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Mr. ROCHE (Marquette)-by Mr. Henderson-asked :
1.	What timber limits have been disposed of by the government since July, 1896 ?
2.	Who were the purchasers in each case, and the price paid for each limit ?
3.	Were tenders called for each sale, and in what papers or posters did advertisements appear ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S.	Fielding). This question covers a series of years, and it would be much more convenient to have the matter dealt with in the form of a motion.

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Mr. BLA1N-by Mr. Ward-asked :
Is a circular issued giving the prices at which binder twine will be sold for the year ending July 1st, 1902 ? If so, what are the prices ?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL (Hon. H. G. Carroll).: No circular has been issued.
I.CR.-PURCHASE FOR YEAR ENDING 30th JUNE, 1901.
Mr. BARKER moved for :
1. Copies of (1) all Orders in Council relating to purchases during year ended 30th June, 1901, for use upon the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway, respectively, of :-
(a)	Steel rails and fastenings including plates, bolts, spikes and rail braces.
(b)	Railway ties.
(e) Locomotives.
(d)	Cars.	*
(e)	Wheels.
if)	Axles.
ig)	Truck and body bolsters.
(h) Air appliances.
fi) Coal.
(2.) All contracts, correspondence, reports, vouchers, receipts and papers relating to such purchases and the payments therefor, and to the articles delivered, whether purchased under Orders in Council or otherwise.


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Motion agreed to.
Mr. BARKER moved for :
Return showing :-
1.	The quantities and numbers of the following articles purchased for or received upon the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway, respectively, in the year ending 30th June, 1901 :-
(a)	Steel rails and fastenings, including plates, bolts, spikes and rail braces.
(b)	Railway ties.
(c)	Locomotives.
(d)	Cars.	.
(e)	Wheels.
(f)	Axles.
ig)	Truck bolsters.
ih)	Body bolsters.
(i) Air appliances.
(3) Coal.
2.	The prices paid for the same and the place of delivery.
3.	The names and addresses of the persons from whom purchased, and place and date of purchase.
4.	The names and addresses of all persons employed or engaged in connection with such purchases, as agent or otherwise, and the commission received by such persons in connection therewith.
6.	The qantities of such new rails and fastenings, and of such other articles (excepting locomotives and cars) in store upon each railway at 1st July, 1900, and 1st July, 1901, respectively ; and the sums at which they were severally valued in store account at said dates. Also the quantity issued for use on each railway during the year, and the prices at which they were charged out.
6. The quantities of old rails and fastenings, wheels and axles in store at 1st July, 1900 ; the further quantities received into store during the following year ; the disposition made of any portions during the year; and the quantities on hand at 1st July, 1901 ; with the prices at which they were valued in store account at said dates, and the prices charged for any sold or reused.
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).: The second motion embraces very much of what is contained in the first. I apprehend that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Barker) will be satisfied with one return, if it contains all the information covered by the two motions.


Mr. BARKER.: Certainly.


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Motion agreed to.

Mr. SAMUEL HUGHES (North Victoria) moved :: That in the opinion of this House, in the best interests of the people of Canada, a joint commission should be appointed by the United States and Canada, to examine and report upon the diversion of the waters between the two countries ; and to investigate the conditions, rise and fall, supply and uses of the waters adjacent to the boundary line between the United States and Canada, including all the waters of the lakes and rivers whose waters flow by the St. Lawrence river to the Atlantic ocean.
He said ; Mr. Speaker, this is a motion which does not require any lengthy dis-

cussiou. X believe It has, from time to time, engaged the attention of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States. I am satisfied that it has engaged the attention of the trading public and the commercial men on both sides of the line. The people of Chicago, owing to the difficulty of draining that great city, have seen fit in their wisdom to construct what you may term a large waterway, 200 feet wide and averaging about 24 feet deep, connecting Lake Michigan with the Illinois river ; so that in place of the old Chicago river, as formerly, running down, there is now a strong current running up that river and leading down the Illinois river into the Mississippi. At various points along the line, as at Sault Ste. Marie, we have large locks on both sides of the river; there are also large power improvements projected at each of these points, as well as on the Niagara river. Coming down to the St. Lawrence we find that both this government and the American government have been engaged in dredging operations, undoubtedly affecting the outlet of the lake. Although these may not be important in themselves, and in view of the great volume of water in those lakes, would not materially affect the output at the present time ; yet it is hard to tell what in the near future may be the schemes advanced by business industries on each side of the line which might result in the reducing the water supply in these great lakes. Navigators complain at times of the impossibility of keeping the channel up to the normal level ; and, therefore, I desire to draw the attention of the House and of the country to the necessity of looking into the question at an early date in order that some understanding may be arrived at between the two governments as to the proper control of the waters for other than navigation purposes, and for the maintenance of the waters of the lakes at the normal level, so that navigation may not be interfered with by deepening the channels or reducing the water supply by turning it into other avenues. I shall not take up further time in speaking to the motion. My object is not to embarrass the government, but to draw its attention to this important matter.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: <Hon. J. Israel Tarte). The question to which my hon. friend (Mr. Hughes, Victoria) has drawn the attention of the House is a very important one. I think, however, that before we undertake to obtain the co-operation of the American authorities we should understand our own position a little better, in other words, we should give it more attention than we have perhaps been doing in the past. My department has begun a survey of certain parts of the lakes and rivers, and I intend during the coming season to take some steps in the direction that my hon. friend has indicated. In the meantime, Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
however, I think it would not be advisable to follow the suggestion of my hon. friend, and as he has now called the attention of the House to the subject, I would ask him not to press his motion.


Samuel Hughes: Has there been any information received from the American government on this same line 1


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. James Sutherland).: I may say that an intimation has been made, and my department is observing the proceedings of the American Congress in reference to this matter. I can assure my hon. friend from Victoria that it is receiving the attention of the officers of the department, and it will receive every consideration that is due to so important a question. I think under the circumstances my hon. friend would do well not to press his motion.


Samuel Hughes: My sole object was to draw the attention of the House and of the country to the question, in order to make sure that the interests of Canada might not be neglected in this all important matter. Inasmuch as the ministers have assured us that the interests of Canada will be carefully guarded, I should consider that the object of my motion has been secured, and I will withdraw it.


Mr. SPROULE.: I think the United States have already appointed a commission for this purpose, presumably with the object of co-operating with this government. I presume this government is in possession of some information with regard to that, and will be prepared to act conjointly with the United States authorities.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I do not think any definite action has been taken by the American government as yet.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They have appointed a commission.
Motion withdrawn.


WHEAT BLOCKADE IN MANITOBA.
Mr.  J. M.@: DOUGLAS (East Assiniboia) moved for :
Copy of all papers and correspondence relative to the present wheat blockade in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, and the incapacity and inability of the Canadian Pacific Railway Ccmpany to move the crop of last year In such a reasonable period of time as to prevent the grain-growers of the country being subjected to serious financial loss.
He said : I desire to submit to the House some facts in connection with this wheat blockade in the North-west Territories. It so happens that the congestion is largely confined to East Assiniboia, the district between Moosomin and Moosejaw. I desire to submit facts for the information of the

House, with the hope that they may lead to the adoption of measures that will relieve the situation for all time to come. A few years ago we were accustomed to read that Manitoba and the North-west Territories were only fit for the buffalo, the Indian and the coyote, that it was not a country fit to be inhabited by white men. We even used to hear men from beyond the seas speaking of it as a blasted country. They came here to make money, and having made it, returned to their old homes to enjoy it with their friends. But that day has passed away. The old settlers have solved the problem, and are now seeking to make permanent homes in the country. There has been a vast increase in their activity in breaking up land and increasing their powers of production. We have had many splendid crops in that country, as the House well knows, but the crop of 1901 surpassed perhaps anything that has ever been produced in any country on the face of the earth. This is a wide statement, but we feel it cannot be contradicted. The crop in Manitoba is the result of an increased acreage, and showed the third largest yield. The crop in the Territories is the result of a large increase in acreage it is true, but chiefly the result of a very large increase in the yield per acre.
The principle underlying the production of wheat on the American continent is an interesting study. There is a principle that seems to come to light in connection with this bonanza crop in the North-west. It is that there is a tendency for the wheat producing area to recede from the south and to go northwards. It is a fact well known to us that the state of Illinois, at one time the greatest wheat producing state in the Union, has ceased to produce wheat and now corn and the hog occupy the soil. Then again, in North and South Dakota, it is found that the production of grain is not always a profitable employment. The principle seems to be that the area is moving from the south and gradually going northward and that the nearer we come to the northern limit of the wheat area, the stronger the grain becomes and the more profitable is its production.


An hon. MEMBER.: Why is that ?


Mr. DOUGLAS.: I will explain it in this way. You have a spikelet or bar across the grain of wheat. In Wisconsin and Illinois they were formerly accustomed to produce three grains of perfect wheat, but of late years they can only produce two grains on a spikelet and one imperfect grain. Two grains in this case ceased to be productive. In Manitoba we have always been able to produce three perfect grains and this year the exception has been that we have produced four perfect grains on one bar or spikelet. Whilst in Manitoba we have produced three perfect grains almost every
year, to the north, around Prince Albert, in the Saskatchewan district, we have almost invariably produced four perfect grains. The wheat yield in the territories last year ranged from twenty-five to fifty-five bushels per acre. This immense yield has given rise to certain difficulties. These difficulties have arisen in connection with the transportation of the crop. We were assured that up to January the Canadian Pacific Railway moved something like 40,000,000 bushels, while the Canadian Northern moved 11,000,000 bushels. We are informed by the best authority to-day that there are at least 50,000,000 bushels more to be moved before navigation opens, and that will still leave 2G,000,000 bushels for bread and seed for the coming year. You can see how far short the railway facility has come of moving the crop so as to secure the highest price in the market to the producer.


Mr. CHARLTON.: Does my hon. friend (Mr. Douglas) say that the wheat crop is 127,000,000 bushels ?


James Moffat Douglas: I am giving you the statement and I will give you the report of the warehouse commissioner which ought to satisfy every person.


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: That is, all grains.


James Moffat Douglas: Yes, all grains. With the view of perfect accuracy I wish to put on record the report of Mr. Castle, warehouse commissioner, who was appointed by this government under the legislation of 1900. The report is dated Winnipeg, January 15th, 1902, and addressed to Mr. Tar-melee, deputy minister Trade and Commerce. Waiving the introduction he goes on to make the following statements :
Mr. General Superintendent Leonard of the Canadian Pacific Railway advises me that there are at present in use on the Canadian Pacific
Railway western	division 7,000	box cars and
256 engines divisable as follows :
Cars for use for carriage of general merchandise	4,000
Cars for use for carriage of	grain	 3,000
Engines in use, passenger service (ordinary season)	 38
Engines in use,	grain season	 20
Engines in use, freight trafiic (grain season)	 236
It is stated that all grain has to be hauled on an average	of	700 miles	on	western	division
while the number of miles an engine runs per day is estimated at 200. Below is given a list of the elevators and their capacity at Port William and Port Arthur :
Fort	William	C.P.R. Co.'s,	elevator (a).	1,250,000"	"	"	(b).	1,250,000*	"	"	"	(c).	1,500,000"	"	(d).	1,500,000Port Arthur, King's elevator	
350,000
Total.... 5,850,000 With this equipment worked at highest pressure the following table shows the amount of

grain actually delivered by that company into the Canadian Pacific Railway and King's elevators at Fort William and Port Arthur, each week from the 1st of September to the 28th December inclusive.
I shall not give the deliveries of each week but simply the largest delivery in one week, being 1,335,414 bushels. The total delivery was 14,281,401.
In addition to this up to the 28th of December last there were delivered at Fort William 282,642 bushels of oats and 34,754 of barley, and flour the product of possibly 3,000,000 bushels of wheat ; besides which about 1,000,000 bushels of oats were shipped to Montreal and eastern points, mostly from the Edmonton district, none of which appears in the above weekly elevator reports.
I may state that the facts given us in this report are based upon the condition of things reported to the warehouse commissioner each day and may be regarded as being correct.
From the foregoing it will be seen the Canadian Pacific Railway with their present equipment was unable to deliver at Fort William from Manitoba and Territorial points, more than 1,355,414 bushels of wheat in any one week, while deliveries for the same period at country points were, I should judge, about double that amount. There is not the slightest doubt that had there been proper facilities for handling it, over 3,000,000 bushels of grain would have been marketed weekly at all country points during the last part of October and all of November. Not counting sidings the Canadian Pacific Railway draws grain from 187 points at which there are elevators and warehouses If one and a-half cars per day or nine cars per week (averaging S50 bushels) were supplied to each of the 187 grain points above mentioned, the amount so delivered weekly at Fort William, would be 1,430,550 bushels, that is, nearly 100,000 bushels more than were actually delivered at Fort William and Port Arthur in any one week during the season-exclusive of flour, oats, barley, and flax. In view' of the rapid growth of this western country and taking into consideration the large amount of money, time and energy which have been expended by the government in bringing producing settlers into the country, I consider the Canadian Pacific Railway in its own interests and that of Manitoba and the North-west, should at once take steps to provide equipment sufficient to deliver at Fort William at least 2,000,000 bushels par week. EfTcrts as1 you are aware, have at various times been made to obtain from the railway companies a ten per cent per hundred freight rate on wheat to the lakes. Even if this were obtained the advantages so accruing would be of little or no value to our producers without adequate transportation facilities ; in support of which I would draw your attention to the following facts, viz. :-On the 2nd of November last there were reported to be in store at points on the Canadian Pacific Railway lines 5,306,400 bushels and from the 2nd to the 30th of November there were (exclusive of flour) delivered at Fort William and Port Arthur 5,038,601 bushels or 267,799 bushels less than there were in store at Canadian Pacific Railway country points on the 2nd of November. This clearly proves the lack of proper means of transportation. The following illustrations will show the immense loss this entails Mr. DOUGLAS.
to producers. October purchases having been made on basis of lake and rail shipment, it naturally followed that dealers would during that month, place sufficient orders for cars to ship out grain bought by them during the month. However it became apparent on the first of November that it would be impossible to ship out all October purchases in time to reach Fort William before navigation closed (7th December). Therefore November purchases were made subject to 6 cents per bushel carrying charges, as evidently no grain purchased during that month could be shipped out until after the opening of navigation next spring. It costs per month as follows to carry 50 cent wheat :-
Storage i cent.
Insurance 1 cent.
Interest at 6 per cent equal i cent, in all 1 cent per bushel for one month, and 6 cent3 for six months. Under such circumstances, therefore, the producer selling grain during November would lose almost three times as much money as the government could secure or save for him were the 10 cent rate established.
With reference to the present terminal elevator facilities, I would consider them inadequate, and in my opinion, at least 2,500,000 bushels storage capacity should be added at Fort William at once. Grain traffic will almost be suspended in two or three weeks time, owing to lack of room in terminal elevators at Fort William, and all eastern elevators have been reported to me as filled. While the Canadian Pacific Railway has nominally 5,500,000 bushels storage capacity, their actual working capacity is about 5,000,000 bushels. I do not think that more than 300 cars per day can now be unloaded into elevators at Fort William, while, as I before stated, if on an average of two cars per point per day were delivered at terminals from the 187 grain points along the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's system, it would necessitate the unloading of 374 cars per day, which at 850 bushels per car, would amount to 1,901,400 bushels weekly. With the vast increase in acreage under wheat each year all over the North-west, and the large number of settlers now annually arriving, it is safe to say that from 50 to 70 million bushels of wheat will be exported annually in the immediate future.
My own observations lead me to the conclusion that a scarcity of engines, almost solely, and not box cars as is generally supposed, Is the key note to_the situation. In the year 1895 there was a large crop. The round trip per car was (I understand) then made in eight days, but the reason that was accomplished was that 15 per cent of cars from Fort William coming west were then returned loaded, while 75 per cent were returned loaded last fall, and that precluded the company providing an eight day service, as Mr. Leonard informed me last July, he expected to be in a position to give. In consequenoe of this, it took a much longer time to return cars to country points and it has been frequently reported to me that cars were held over for days at a time at sidings after they were loaded, before engines were obtainable to take them eastward.
(That the Canadian Pacific Railway had and have insufficient equipment to handle as much of the present crop as they should have done this fall and winter, cannot well be denied ; but on the other hand the immense volume of traffic carried by that company east and west this fall with the present equipment certainly re-

fleets the very greatest credit on all the officials of this road. Everything that it was possible to do in this regard, during that time was done.)
When the present terminal elevators were built some years ago, no one could dispute that they were erected ahead of the then requirements. Elevators ' A ' and ' B ' can each load out about 25,000 bushels per hour. Elevators ' C ' and ' D ' about 15,000 bushels per hour. The Duluth terminal elevators can today load out about 60,000 bushels per hour. In my opinion, all terminal elevators built at Port William should be equal to loading vessels at this rate. It is no uncommon occurrence for boats of 250,000 bushels capacity, to call at Port William for Manitoba grain, and if this port is to hold its own, it is evident as rapid handling of grain must be there provided as at Duluth.
There is another very important feature of the Manitoba grain traffic which it is well should not be lost sight of, viz., the grain carrying capacity of the lake marine, now available for transportation of western grain.
The port of Buffalo was congested early last fall owing (I am informed) to shortage of cars at that point ; therefore any surplus of Manitoba grain that should have been transported by rail to Fort William, above what was actually shipped, would have been required to have been taken out of Canadian vessels.
Query.-Were Canadian boats in a position to take care of this increased traffic if offered? If so, are the present facilities at foot of Lake Superior and Huron on Canadian side, now capable of handling such increased traffic. Further, were there cars available at these points to transport this extra grain to Montreal or seaboard terminals ?
It might be well for the government to inquire into the whole question of facilities now available for handling grain between Port William and the seaboard.
In this report I have not had occasion to refer to the Canadian Northern Railway, as shipments from points along that system have to elate gone out via Duluth, which port is out of my jurisdiction.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) CHARLES C. CASTLE, Warehouse Commissioner.
Now, Sir, from this report of the warehouse commissioner it is perfectly evident that the rolling stock, and especially the motive power of the Canadian Pacific Railway is far short of what is required to-day to get the grain to the seaboard before navigation closes. In consequence of this defect the producers are reported to have been subject to serious loss. Considering that the Canadian Pacific Railway has taken out 40,000,000 bushels, say up to January, and that the producer has lost about ten cents per bushel, here is a loss equal to $4,000,000. Then again the Canadian Northern Railway is reported to have moved about 11,000,000 bushels and the loss sustained by the producers on this quantity is said to be $1,000,000, so that the producers have lost in all $5,000,000 by reason of imperfect transportation. Speaking of Assiniboia where the congestion really exists, there was no competition between the roads there, and naturally business men will try to protect their own business and their own pockets, with the result that cars were sent to those points in Manitoba where there was competition and the Manitoba producers have in this way not suffered to the same extent as the people in the territories. The loss in Assiniboia has been great. I could scarcely give you an idea of the congested state of things between Moosomin and Moosejaw. Any one who looked at the ' Globe ' of Saturday last may have noticed photographs showing how things were congested in the town of Wolseley, and the efforts made by the farmers to accommodate the grain they had still on hand. In Assiniboia the total production of grain last year was 15,468,345 bushels. This statement is based on the report of the government, which in turn is based upon reports received from men engaged in threshing the grain. This may be regarded as the quantity reported up to January. It certainly does not represent the total production ; but even on this amount there is a loss to the producer of $1,546,834.
The loss on grain still in hand to be shipped cannot be fully estimated. Those who are acquainted with the country know well that very few farmers have proper gran-eries, fitted to protect the grain against a shower of rain. Then, they are not in a position to keep the grain till the summer ; and, indeed, to haul it in the summer would cost so much, necessitating the taking of their horses and men off their farms when they ought to be occupied in the cultivation of the soil, that it would render the production of grain wholly unprofitable.
Then, there is a great loss to the producers who are off the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Many of them cannot have marketed a dozen loads of grain this season. The result is that they have not been able to pay their liabilities in the town or village, and have been obliged to borrow money at 12 per cent interest to pay their hired labour.
There are heavy losses in all these directions-from imperfect storage, from the paying of heavy interest on loans to meet current expenses, and from the expense of temporary buildings. In every town and village you will find every vacant house or warehouse, every implement storehouse, every baker's shop, filled with wheat. You will find wheat piled up against the elevators, on the side-walks, in front of stores, and in every conceivable place, waiting for transportation.
Then, many, of whom lam one, have been forced to build temporary buildings in order to have the grain hauled during the winter and not to draw on the summer, which should be devoted to other work. This involves a great deal of expense.
I remember contending on the floor of this House during the past few years for the necessity of having flat warehouses. I was

informed time and again that it was a retrograde movement, that the fiat warehouse was antiquated, and that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were exceedingly liberal when they granted us one flat warehouse at each shipping station. When I tell you that to-day in the town of Wolseley there are 46 flat warehouses, which have been built by private individuals, you will come to realize that there was some point to my argument. Then, at Indian Head, where this season 2,500,000 bushels of grain will be marketed, I personally counted 75 wagons standing waiting to be unloaded, most of them having two loads, while the farmer had been obliged to return to his home with his horses and leave the grain, for days, until it could be unloaded. At Indian Head the people have built 115 small warehouses for their own accommodation, and 35 more are in course of erection. I remember being told on the floor of this House that we would make each Canadian Pacific Railway yard a village of warehouses. Well, what are we doing ? For the very lack of these warehouses a veritable village of temporary graneries is being erected in the neighbourhood of every Canadian Pacific station. And all this indicates that we came far short of realizing that our western country would develop at such a rate as to make the present facilities altogether inadequate. The difference between winter and summer hauling, I do not wish to dwell upon ; but the loss to the country is very great, and will continue to be so.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: Are these warehouses erected along the line of the railway ?


James Moffat Douglas: As near the railway as they can get. So that you see the elevator system does not meet the needs of the case. 1 have never opposed the elevator system ; but I hold it to be unjust on the part of any government to force the people to deal through the elevator system exclusively. Let me tell you what took place this year all along the line. When a farmer went to the elevator with No. 1 Hard, he was told, 1 We are not buying No. 1 Hard at the elevator.' This was the case, not at one elevator only, but all along the line, as if there were some concocted plan to rob the public. They simply said, ' We are not purchasing No. 1 Hard, we have no means of storing it.' The result was that the producer had to sell his grain as No. 1 Northern, losing on it about 5 cents a bushel. It certainly looked to me like the method of the highwayman.
It is highway robbery. I am sorry indeed to have to make this statement, but the Bill of 1900 provides against such a state of things, and the warehouse commissioner has it in his power to withhold the license from these elevator companies unless they do business along the line of our legisla-


James Moffat Douglas: tion. Such action as this by the commissioner would have put an end to the difficulty. But the objection I see is that we are putting upon the commissioner a responsibility that is more than any one individual ought to bear, and I would recommend to the House the appointment of a commission, composed of a representative of the farming community, a representative of the trade, a representative of the railway company, and a good solicitor, to sit during the grain season and adjust all irregularities in connection with the administration of the law. I believe it was within the commissioner's power to have notified these elevator people that unless they did business along the line of the legislation of 1900, they would not get a license- that they must either stop doing business or do it in accord with the Act. But such notice was not given, and consequently the farmers were obliged to accept a lower grade, which was a very serious loss, taking into account the large crop.
I wish, Mr. Speaker, to tax further the patience of the House by calling attention to certain resolutions adopted by what is now known as the Territorial Grain Growers Association. The congested state of affairs led our people to come together and discuss the situation. They formed an organization and drafted a constitution and held meetings at various points. I have on my desk resolutions from a number of associations, but I shall confine myself to the proceedings of the central association, which met at Indian Head and to which delegates were sent from all over the territory, especially from Moose Jaw down the boundary between Manitoba and the Northwest Territories. At this meeting, which was held on the 12th of February, the following resolutions were adopted, and they were forwarded to me by Mr. Miller, the secretary-treasurer, in order that I might bring them to the notice of this House.
Moved by R. J. Phin,-
Whereas the farmers of the North-west Territories have not been able to market thetr wheat owing to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's refusal to furnish cars to move it.
And that there is still remaining in the farmer's hands one-half of the grain grown during the past year.
And that a large quantity of wheat has been sold to the elevator and milling companies at a less price and on a lower grade that its value, caused by the companies stating that they only have bins to receive wheat of the lower grade, and owing to this the farmers have been forced to take from 7 to 9 cents per bushel less than the value of their wheat at Fort William.
And that there is now an elevator at Port Arthur ready to receive wheat, and also plenty of elevator space at Duluth.
And that it is a well known fact that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have not at present the motive power sufficient to handle the business of the country.

Therefore, be it resolved that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company be asked to furnish sufficient cars to forward the grain as it is offered, and the shipper be allowed to ship to Winnipeg, thence by Canada Northern to their elevator at Port Arthur, and also to ship to Duluth, both via Winnipeg and the Soo line at the rate of freight charged to Fort William ; and that a copy of this resolution be sent to Superintendent Leonard of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the Minister of Railways, the superintendent of the Canadian Northern and the Department of Inland Revenue.
I might say that 1 saw a telegram the other day stating that the Canadian Pacific Railway have undertaken to send grain over the ' Soo ' line to Duluth, and is| thus giving a measure of relief to that congested country.
Moved by W. R. Motherwell, seconded by J. Morrison,-
That the transportation facilities of the Territories has not kept pace with the settlement and productive capacity of the country, with the very natural result that at the present time a complete standstill has been reached in the marketing of our wheat, and with over the half of it yet in our granaries and likely to remain there during the greater part of the coming summer. A tremendous loss to the country even at this date has already been sustained. That never again in the history of our country should such a disastrous occurrence be permitted and that the granting of full provincial powers to the Territories and with it the power to build railways would without doubt be helpful in that direction.
Resolutions passed by the Balcarres and Ken-lis local Territorial Grain Growers' Association.
1.	That section 43 of the Manitoba Grain Act be amended in such a manner as will empower
the warehouse commissioner to compel all railway companies to erect every loading platform, approved of by said commissioner, within thirty days after said approval is given, and in default, the said commissioner shall have the power to impose penalties on such defaulting railway companies and collect same through the courts. And further, that this amendment come into force not later than the first day of May, A.D. 1902, and that height of said platform be level with floor of car.
2.	That railway companies be compelled to provide farmers with cars to be loaded direct from vehicles at all stations, irrespective of there being an elevator, warehouse, or loading platform at such station or not. And further, that this amendment come into force the first day of May, A.D. 1902.
I shall not weary the House by reading the further resolutions passed by the different associations at different points in the territories. They all point in the same direction, and deal with the same difficulty. While the Bill of 1900 provided for the loading of cars from the farmer's vehicles, and while a number of these platforms were constructed by the Canadian Pacific Railway; yet when the pressure came the Canadian Pacific Railway seemed unwilling to construct further loading platforms and 29
our farmers were denied the use of cars altogether and have been up to date.
It has produced a state of feeling which is not at all desirable or pleasant. Sometimes we men from the west are said to be breezy. I would not like to say anything very strong or injudicious, but were I to interpret the feeling which exists in the west to-day, I would certainly rend my garments and put ashes on my head. It would be much easier to-day to raise a rebellion than to raise the taxes. But the question is : What remedy do you propose? The Canadian Pacific Railway, we understand, are likely to seek an increase of their stock to the extent of $20,000,000, with the view to increasing their rolling stock, extending branches and 'doubling their track from Winnipeg to Fort William. That, certainly is all in the right direction. I am not in favour of doubling their main line through the territories, because it would not relieve the settlers who haul grain a great distance or the new settlements that are continually springing up. But if the track be doubled from Winnipeg to the lakes, it will certainly be an advantage. If the North-west Central had been built two or three years ago, as we North-west members struggled so hard to secure its building, but were defeated, the congestion along the main line in Assiniboia would not have occurred, because the new line would have relieved it. I am glad to state that now the company is prepared to build probably one hundred miles as a branch from the main line out to File Hills. This will largely meet the necessities of the case and will relieve the main line through the territory of East Assiniboia. But there must be a large increase in the storage capacity at the 187 points at which the Canadian Pacific Railway loads grain. The storage capacity at country points in Manitoba and the Territories amounts to something a little over 21,000,000 bushels. We are informed by Mr. Castle, the warehouse commissioner, that at least three million bushels capacity ought to be added to the Canadian Pacific Railway storage at the lakes. I am pleased to see by Saturday's paper, that the Canadian Pacific Railway are taking steps to increase their storage capacity from 5,500,000 bushels to 9,000,000 bushels, the cost of which to them will be about $1,000,000. This is in the direction of relief. But I do not know why this government might not consider the propriety of assisting in building storage capacity at the lakes. Certainly it would only be carrying out the same principle that they have adopted in assisting to build elevators at Montreal. Then we want a large increase in the transportation facilities. We want the government to take into consideration as soon as possible, the perfection of a water way to the sea. The sooner the grain can be got to market in the autumn, the greater the value to the country, the greater the price-and I am sure



the country is worthy the trouble and the expense. I am satisfied there is more gold in the soil of the prairies than in the rocks of the Yukon, and we ought to be willing to spend some money in providing such transportation facilities as the country demands. Wheat is a cash article ; it will pay its own way to the sea. The farmers are not asking for protection. I would like to say a word to our protectionists in the old provinces. The best protection any government can give to you is to attract a large population to the North-west to produce abundantly and make a market for your products. Moreover, you cannot protect the farmer of the North-west-no government, I do not care what its name may be, can protect the farmer of the North-west. Why ? Because he is out in the wide world of free trade with his products ; he must compete with all comers in a market where he has no artificial advantage. You may protect manufacturers, but there is no protection you can give them that will be better than to fill the North-west country with an industrious population of great producing power whose wants will give a home market for home products. I do not wish to take up longer time, but I thought it most important that the resolution I present, and this report and also the important facts I have given, should be placed on record.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson).: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Douglas) one question, for information. I understood him to say that the elevator people told the farmers that they had no bins for hard wheat. AVas that because they reserved no bins for No. 1 hard or was it that the bins, though reserved, were full ?


James Moffat Douglas: No, the answer was : We are not purchasing No. 1 hard.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: Did they allege as a reason that the bins reserved for No. 1 hard were already full ?


James Moffat Douglas: They had no provision made for it. But you can easily understand why. If they can purchase No. 1 hard at the price of No. 1 northern, they can mix it with a lower grade of a less value and still have it grade No 1 northern. If this be done they make money. They have robbed the public, it is true, but they have made money. That is a line of business that is being practiced very largely. A remedy is provided, however, in the legislation of 1900. But if the law had been strictly carried out. this practice might have been stopped and that suddenly. I am glad to say, so far as I know, our legislation of 1900 has been most effective. It needs some additions. I believe some additional power should be given to the warehouse commissioner, for example. This subject will be brought up in due time, before this session closes. What we want is perfect freedom-access to the market in-


James Moffat Douglas: dependently of the elevators. We want neither legislation nor anything else to say to our people : You must go along this line and not along that line. They have a right to perfect freedom in the presentation of their stuff at the railway station, and they ought to have the facilities which the Dominion Railway Act has ensured to all Canadian citizens. This has become very apparent in the trade of this year. The people have been denied cars. I had a telegram no longer ago than Friday from a man who had bought in considerable quantity in Grenfel. He applied for cars to ship the wheat to Brandon. But he was informed by the Canadian Pacific Railway officials that they could not grant him cars-that the Dealers' Association objected. What does that mean ? I sent the telegram with a note to Montreal asking what it meant, but I have not yet heard the explanation. I know there are gentlemen from Manitoba who know, perhaps, as much about the grain trade as I do, and there are other members also, no doubt, who have given this matter attention and who will address the House. In bringing my remarks to a close, I desire to express the sincere hope that before this session closes the government will take this whole situation into its serious consideration and will manifest such an interest in it as will show the people that it is the country's welfare we seek and its prosperity we desire.


Mr. T. O. DAVIS (Saskatchewan).: I would like to say a few words on this question that has been brought before the House by the hon. member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) with reference to the grain blockade. There is no doubt at all that we have been seriously troubled in that way in the Northwest Territories and in Manitoba during the last season. But we must take into consideration that we have during the season that has just passed, raised not only one crop in the North-west Territories, but we have raised something like two crops; and the shortage of cars, I fancy, is not so much due to the neglect of the railway companies as it is to their not being prepared to move two crops in one season. However, I think any person who has listened to the speech of the hon. member for Assiniboia must come to the conclusion that it is high time the government of this country did something towards the appointment of a railway commission to settle all these disputes.
Now, my hon. friend has told us this afternoon that the grain Act is very good in itself, but he mentioned some defects in it, and some respects in which he thought it did not meet the wishes of the people of that country* However, so far as I could gather from his speech, he thinks that while the Act itself provided for all the different things he complained of, the commissioner had not enforced the Act. Now, I noticed that in one part of his speech he alluded to thp fact that the commissioner might, if

he so wished, refuse a license to any person that was desirous of providing a flat warehouse or an elevator. I think if the hon. gentlemen will look over the Act, the Grain Act of 1900, he will find that the commissioner has no power to refuse a license to any one. That Act provides that a license should be granted to any person operating a flat warehouse or an elevator, on the payment of a certain fee, and when the party operating an elevator or a flat warehouse has conformed to all the regulations laid down in this Act. That being the case, if the conditions of the Act have not been fulfilled, we must take it, either that the commissioner has neglected or refused to do his duty as provided in this Act, or that the parties who have a grievance have failed to apply to the commissioner for relief, or to make official complaint to him. It is either the one thing or the other. If the parties had officially complained to him that they were not receiving proper treatment with regard to grades, it would be the duty of the commissioner under this Act to take the matter up and to see that the parties were properly dealt with, because the machinery is here for that purpose.
Now, to my mind this whole matter is closely related to a question that has been discussed in this House for many years, and that is the transportation problem. That is the greatest problem to-day that the people of this country have to deal with. There lies the secret of the whole thing. We have not sufficient railway accommodation in the North-west at the present time. We have this year raised something like a hundred million bushels of grains, and when we take into consideration that about 400,000 people all told have produced 100,000,000 bushels of grain, not to speak of the quantity of other grains they have produced, I think the House will agree with me that it is about time something was done to provide better facilities for carrying our grain to market. W'e have had this year only one road from the city of Winnipeg, only one railway for taking away that grain, the railway running from Winnipeg to Port Arthur. Of course, the Canadian Northern line was opened up towards the latter end of November, but on account of not having elevators prepared at Port Arthur the people could not take advantage of it, and it was of very little use to the people of the North-west this year. So we had to depend on the one track, and I am not prepared to say that in every case the railroad company have acted in a right spirit with the people, but they have done well in the whole.
Now, with reference to the flat warehouses and the loading platforms my hon. friend speaks of, there is a provision in this Act. which I have under my hand, that if a pertain number of farmers wish to have a flat warehouse at any point they may send a petition to the commissioner and the 29i
commissioner shall give them permission to build the warehouse, and shall see that the railroad corporation furnishes the necessary facilities in the way of side tracks, &c. If they are not satisfied with one flat warehouse, they can apply again to the commissioner and can get others built, providing they pay 6 per cent on the cost of putting in tli* sidings and pay for the land on which the warehouse stands. If they had made application to the commissioner, I have no doubt he would have seen that they had the privilege granted them of building these warehouses. However, taking the Act as a whole, while I think there are some things in it that could be amended, it has worked out pretty well indeed. But the fact of the matter is we want more railroad facilities ; we must have more railroads to' the lakes. .
The hon. gentleman spoke about canals. To my mind this country has been spending enough money on canals. Of course, I am only expressing my own opinion when I say that I think the time has come that we will have to have a quicker mode of transporting our produce to market than by taking it down through the canals. Under present conditions very little of the wheat crop of Manitoba is taken out in the summer months. It has to cross through the lakes to the canals, and as soon as navigation closes we have to depend on storing it at Fort William or some other place. Now we find that grain that is stored at Fort William over winter depreciates in value something like six cents per bushel; in other words, the farmer loses six cents a bushel on account of having to store his grain over winter, including storage charges, insurance, &c. So if we had some means of sending the grain direct to market, direct to an ocean port, we could take advantage of a rise in wheat when such takes place. But we are not able to do that now because it is stored at Fort William or some other place and has to lie there over winter. However, that is a matter that belongs to the discussion of the transportation problem, and that may come up in the House shortly.
I wish to say again that the remarks of the hon. member for East Assiniboia have demonstrated to this House the necessity that exists for the appointment of a railway commission. No matter how good a man you may appoint as grain commissioner in Winnipeg, when the rush is on in the fall it is impossible for him to deal with everything that comes up, like a shortage of cars. That is not his business. His business is to deal between the farmer and the elevator man about grades, &c. With reference to a shortage of cars, the only way you can deal with that is by a railway commission. Over in the United States, I think, in every state in the union, they have at the present time a railway commission, whose duty it is0to deal with this matter. Other matters that come up such as cattle

guards, would all be dealt with by a railway commission. I hope that the government will take that into consideration, and the sooner they appoint a railway commission to see that all these things are looked after, such as a shortage of cars and everything else, the better it will be for every person interested.


Mr. W. F. McCREARY (Selkirk).: Before this discussion closes, as the two hon. gentlemen who have just spoken have not referred to the province of Manitoba, X desire to say a few words. In the first place, an impression would be conveyed from the statement of the hon. member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) that the car shortage did not affect the province of Manitoba. As a matter of fact, there are now lying in bins in that province 20,000,000 or 25,000,000 bushels of wheat that could not be moved out to the lake ports this fall. I have an important resolution passed by the Winnipeg Board of Trade at a meeting held in January last. It is quite lengthy, and if the House will permit me, I will hand it to the ' Hansard ' instead of reading it.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Read it.


William Forsythe McCreary: Then X will read a portion of it. It sets out the matter so fully that I think it ought to be brought before this House. Mr. Speaker, in my opinion the car shortage and loss that has been occasioned in consequence is one of the most important matters that can be brought up in this House.
The loss in Manitoba alone has been estimated on the car shortage at $7,000,000, sustained by the 250,000 people in that province. If the farmers in the province of Ontario who number ten times those in Manitoba were to make in one year a loss of $7,000,000, we would hear from some hon. members on the other side of the House representing the province of Ontario. I attended a board of trade meeting that was called to deal with this question. On the first day of the meeting a resolution was brought up by three or four gentlemen, one of whom at a former time was a member of this House. It was thought that the resolution had been a little too strongly worded and it was a debatable question. That resolution was subsequently amended by a committee composed of men who are probably among the best citizens of Winnipeg and who are largely interested in the city of Winnipeg and in the province of Manitoba. The resolution reads as follows :
Whereas the Canadian Pacific Railway Company was chartered by the Canadian parliament and large grants of money and land were made to that company as an inducement to their undertaking the construction and operation of a line of railroad through Manitoba and the North-west, with'A view of the development of the country ;%nd,
Whereas, further large ' grants either in money and in lands, or both, have been made


Thomas Osborne Davis: from time to time for the purpose of securing the construction of branch lines and extensions thereof to the same road ; and,
Whereas, a strict monopoly of the carrying trade of this country was for long years secured and has been attempted to be maintained up to the present time ; and.
Whereas, under these circumstances the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories and the Dominion have a right to expect that the road will provide and maintain adequate facilities for handling the traffic of this country, and especially of the outgoing produce thereof ; and,
Whereas, the said company has failed in the carrying out of the crop of the year 1901 to such an extent that with the elevators at Fort William, as also along the linc-s of the said road in Manitoba and the North-west full of wheat alone, there yet remains in the farmers' hands over and above the quantity required for consumption and for seed an amount which may be reasonably estimated at the present time at twenty million bushels of wheat.
That is in the province of Manitoba alone. -which surplus they are unable to market ; and.
Whereas, a very large acreage was prepared for cultivation during the year 1901 by new settlers, and the prospect for immigration to Manitoba and the North-west during the year 1902 is extremely good, consequently the area of land broken up and to be broken up and brought under cultivation the coming year will materially add to the grain producing area ; and,
Whereas, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company still exclusively possess the carrying trade of a very large proportion of the grain area in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, and with a full knowledge of the increase of acreage under crop, did not provide what was reasonably necessary for the crop of the past year ;
Therefore, be it resolved

And here is what I wish the members of the government to observe that is the remedy, proposed at this large meeting :
-that this board in view of the facts call on the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to relieve the present situation, so far as is within their power, between this time and the opening of navigation, by carrying grain forward, all rail, from Manitoba and the North-west to eastern points, to the greatest extent possible, and at a rate of freight which shall not exceed the rate charged by lake and rail between the same points ;
That with the view of providing against similar difficulties in the future, they should, during the current year, double track their line from the Red river to Fort William ;
That they should materially increase their elevator capacity at Fort William and also afford every facility for the building and operation of elevators at Fort William by private
enterprise ;
That they should provide ample motive power and cars for use on the western division so as to be in a position to handle the traffic of the country during the period of greatest necessity with sufficient expenditure and to get the bulk of the crop out before the close of navigation. As I said, at this meeting of the Board of 1 Trade of the city of Winnipeg, composed

of 200 or 300 of tlie most prominent commercial men of the west, this question was discussed at great length, in fact, for two entire afternoons. Mr. William Whyte, superintendent of the Canadian Pacific [DOT] Railway was present and made out a very able case for the Canadian Pacific Railway. He took credit to the Canadian Pacific Railway for having purchased during the previous year 62 new engines and 1,200 new box cars, and for having hauled out 32 per cent more wheat and 125 per cent more oats than in the previous year, and he pointed out that in fact they had taken every possible precaution to meet the new situation and were doing everything possible to provide new rolling stock to take out the crop in the comparatively short time which was given them to move it. It may surprise some hon. gentlemen to know that the wheat crop begins to move about the first of September and keeps on usually until the first of December. But this year on account of having a considerable rain fall the farmers were not able to thresh their grain, and consequently the total number of days that was given to the Canadian Pacific Railway to move the crop out before navigation closed was forty-three days. As a fair minded man I do not know that the Canadian Pacific Railway could be asked to provide rolling stock, engines and box cars, necessary to move that immense quantity of grain in so short a time. I do not know whether, if it had been moved as rapidly as required, there would not have been just as bad a blockade at Fort William and at Buffalo. Touching upon that question, I may say that the Board of Trade of Winnipeg, in their annual report took up that same question, and, Mr. Speaker, if you will permit me, I will read a clause of the report dealing with that phase of the question :
The tonnage of the Canadian lake vessels is
not keeping pace with the annually increasing tonnage handled at Fort William, and It behooves Canadians to move in this matter with despatch, or an unduly increased percentage of Manitoba grain will seek the Atlantic seaboard via Buffalo and American lines. It is doubtful whether, if all the grain offered to the Canadian Pacific Railway last fall had been taken to Fort William, there would have been Canadian vessels to have taken it across the lakes, even when excluding the quantity actually taken to Buffalo in American bottoms. Late in the fall Buffalo was blocked, and owing to the coatsing laws American vessels were not allowed to carry grain from Fort William to another Canadian port. Either the Canadian fleet will have to be largely augmented or the coasting regulations suspended, for Manitoba grain cannot be held back at Fort William or Port Arthur, because Canadian vessel tonnage is inadequate to handle it.


Mr. CLARKE.: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman (Mr. McCreary), but may I ask him a question ? I have heard the statement made that when navigation closed there was not a bushel of wheat in
the elevators at Fort William to be taken out. I would like to know if that is a fact.


William Forsythe McCreary: I dare say that may have been the case.


Edward Frederick Clarke: That, in fact, two or three vessels went up to Fort William to get cargoes, that they were unable to get them, and that they had to remain there.


William Forsythe McCreary: I dare say that may be the case. Owing to the trouble caused by the serious rain fall that we had in Manitoba, the farmers were not able to thresh the grain. If you ask the 20,000 men who went up there to help thresh the grain, they will tell you that they could not get employment when they arrived and that many of them returned home again, but, a very few days after the boats were loaded for the last time at Fort William there was enough grain to fill up these elevators again. The hon. gentleman for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) put the matter in a nutshell when he said that on the 2nd of November there were 5,000,000 bushels of grain in the elevators in our country and that during the entire month of November they had just moved out about 5,000,000 bushels, consequently all the wheat threshed during November must have been bought at six cents anyway a bushel less than it was worth. My own county is not as much affected by this question as some other parts of the province of Manitoba, but during the last two or three weeks before I came down here, I happened to be on a little missionary tour in the county of Lisgar. That is one of the largest grain producing counties in the west. 1 met with many farmers there and discussed the question with them. I tell you, Sir, it was pretty hard to talk Liberal principles in view of the fact that across the boundary they were getting six to sixteen cents a bushel more for wheat than our farmers were. I endeavoured to find an explanation for this. The explanation is not due entirely to the car shortage. There are many reasons for it. The town of Snowflake where I had a meeting is situated in the southern part of the county and right across the line is the town of Hanna in North Dakota. The price of wheat was six to sixteen cents a bushel more there than it was in Snowflake. I asked a farmer ' how is that ' ? He said there are different reasons. I said ' What about the rate,' He said 'Well the rate from Snowflake to Port Aruthur on the Canadian Pacific Railway is 16 cents.' ' What is the rate on the Great Northern from Duluth,' I asked. He said : ' the rate is 17 cents.' I said : ' It cannot be the railway.' ' No,' he replied. Well, what is the reason ? One farmer said the reason was that the millers of Minneapolis were booming the price on account of shortage of feed in Nebraska and South Dakota and they were paying ?26 a ton for

bran, and consequently they wanted to grind the wheat and sell the bran and make a /profit that way. Another man said there was no restriction whatever on the farmers selling to them wheat in the United States, and consequently the competition there was more lively. While these may be some of the reasons they still do not explain the great discrepancy in the prices. My own impression is, that before this question is finally settled, we will have to select a body of men who will act as a commission to decide on these matters. They must be men who understand the business, and they will have to study the elevator system at Duluth and follow it up over the branch line of the Canadian Northern and the Northern Pacific throughout this prairie country, in order to asser-tain why there is this difference in the price. I think our present Grain Act was not sufficiently considered at the time it was passed, and I believe a good deal of amendments could be made to improve it. The member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) said he thought our grain Act could be worked out all right, but I think the Minister of the Interior when he returns intends to bring down important amendments to this Act. For instance, one clause provides that if a car is placed on a siding for a farmer he can only have a limited time to load that car, and if he exceeds that time it is taken away or there is a charge for demurrage. The time given to the farmer in many cases is not long enough. Another clause of that Act provides that if you make a request to the Canadian Pacific Railway for a loading platform, they are given three months in which to construct that loading platform when it should be constructed in three days. Five men could easily build it in three days am1 consequently that clause in the Act is of very little use. These are some suggested amendments to the Act which should be looked into carefully. No doubt when the minister (Hon. Mr. Sifton) brings his Bill to amend the Act, all the questions which have been brought up to-day will be discussed at greater length. There is another phase of this question which seriously affects our western country. A large number of these farmers who are now coming into Manitoba and especially along the Sault line in the North-west, are men who have large means and some of whom bring in five or six cars of mules and horses. They are going into the country to raise wheat as a speculation. They have followed that occupation down in Dakota and Minnesota and they have been making money out of the raising of wheat alone. The moment they come in there and see our farmers with from 5,000 to 10,000 bushels of wheat lying in the warehouses and unable to get cars to carry it out, they are at first disposed to treat the matter as a joke. They cannot understand the situa-Mr. McCreary.
tion at all. They say :	If the Canadian
Pacific Railway cannot supply you cars to ship your wheat what is the use of raising it. If some of these men who are possessed of large means get it into their heads that our railway system is such that we cannot get the wheat out, then they will not come into our country at all. It behooves the government of the day to look seriously into this phase of the question, because it is a very important matter to the people of Manitoba and the North-west. I have noticed since I have come to this parliament, that there has been a very lengthy discussion on some occasions on comparatively unimportant questions. Last year the cultivation of beet-root sugar was discussed for one or two days in the House, and it is, I think, a question which need not be seriously discussed in this country. But here is a question of vast importance to this country. We have 100,000,000 bushels of grain raised by 400,000 people, and we have to solve the problem of populating our Great North-west, but I remark how very few of the hon. gentlemen opposite are present in the House to hear the discussion of this vital matter. I regret indeed to say that the seats are very poorly filled on either side of the House. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the question should be very seriously considered by us all, and I trust that the government will do something to relieve the situation.


Mr. N. BOYD (Macdonald).: I quite agree with the last speaker (Mr. McCreary) in his statement with regard to the empty seats in this House when such an important matter is being discussed. This is a question of greater importance to the Northwest and Manitoba than anything that has been brought before the House during this session or any session for the past five years, and yet, how many of the ministers of the Crown are in their seats at this moment V Just three. We have only three ministers of the Crown present notwithstanding that their supporters are bringing forward this question which is perhaps the most important that can engage the consideration of the people of this country. And, Sir, the minister who is leading the House to-day is the man who used the words, or who supported the men who used the words quoted by my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) when he said that Manitoba and the North-west was a home for buffaloes and coyotes, and that, if the Canadian Pacific Railway; was built it would not pay for the axle grease used on the wheels. We cannot expect that any interest will be taken in this question by that kind of men. That is the position we find this government in to-day. This is a question that has engaged for months past the attention of the whole people of Manitoba and the North-west. The papers have been full of it, and nothing has been said

on the question to-day that has not been published in the press throughout the country since November last. I thought, judging from the remarks of the member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) that he was paving the way as it were to make it easy for the government to support the Canadian Pacific Railway in their proposition with reference to their $20,000,000 outlay. I will not say that this is the case, nor will I say that it would be wise in the interests of the country as a whole that this should not be done. But, Mr. Speaker, I wish to call the attention of the House to the fact that when I had first the honour to speak in this House in 1893, I remarked to the present Prime Minister who was then in opposition :	That if the Liberal party
would admit that they had made mistakes about that western country; if they would say that they did not understand the capabilities of that country, and in order to show their repentance propound the policy that they would go so far as to build another railroad into that country; they would retrieve their position a great deal. But the present Prime Minister shook his head, and a number of the Liberal newspapers amongst others the Ottawa ' Free Press ' castigated me for suggesting such an outrageous doctrine. We now find, Mr. Speaker, that the foresight of the Conservative leaders who opened up that country has caused them to be regarded as the real benefactors of the North-west, and probably some of the old time Liberals view with regret the fact that the pessimistic prophecies they made with regard to that country have, like some of their other prophecies, turned out to be false. We have to-day the spectacle of the supporters of the Liberal government pointing out to that government that the prophecies of the Conservative leaders made in days past, have already been fulfilled.
The question, as I say, is one of the greatest importance to Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, and to the whole of this country, and I regret, beyond words of mine to express, how little interest is being taken in it by the members of this Housed If it related to some trifling bridge, or breakwater, or oyster hatchery, of some scandal, the seats would be full, and each ear set so as not to miss the slightest sound. But here is a question involving millions to the people of this country, and there is general indifference. There is no use of this government trying to shirk responsibility in regard to this question, nor the Canadian Pacific Railway Company trying to shirk responsibility in regard to it ; because it was well known during the whole of last summer, while the crop was growing, what might be expected, and the Canadian Pacific Railway should have provided-and it was the duty of this government to see that they did provide-the necessary equipment to take the crop out of the country. This government has enacted the Grain Act, and
must assume all responsibility for the working of it; and when any man in this House says that that Act has proven a success, and is working satisfactorily, all I can say is that he does not know what he is talking about, because it is working most unsatisfactorily. Whatever idea the hon. member for Eastern Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) may have had when he was putting that Act through this House, it has certainly failed to accomplish the object for which it was enacted. It is such an Act as was never applied to any other business. In what other business is a man compelled to take out a license before he can do business ? The grain dealers say : In order to protect ourselves we have found it necessary to do as we have done ; and what has been the action of the grain men ? This government should look into this matter, because when they were in opposition they declared that they would remove all such restrictions and combines. A greater combine never existed than exists in that country to-day, under the very Grain Act passed by this government. It -works just as the hon. member for Eastern Assiniboia has described ; and, as the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) lias said, some six or seven millions of dollars have been taken out of the pockets of the people of this country in connection with it, and not all on account of the shortage of cars. Wherever there was an independent buyer, the grain combine would send one or two men to raise the price on him to such an extent as to put him out of business unless he was willing to join their exchange. I will cite one case which happened at the town of Douglas, thirty miles west of Car-berry, where there was- an independent buyer. At that point on a certain day the price of wheat was 61 cents a bushel, while 60 miles nearer to Winnipeg, at a point where there was not an independent buyer, it was 51 cents a bushel. This is the way matters have worked under the grain Act of the government. Flat warehouses are useless to meet the case, because the Act provides that they must be built to hold two or three car loads. The result is that a man must be put at each warehouse to look after it, and there goes your warehouse-the expense will eat it up.
Mr. Speaker, there is one way to get over this difficulty, and if the government will not adopt it, I will introduce a measure into this House, so that we shall have them put on record, and see exactly what they intend to do. That is, that they shall demand of the railway companies that they shall provide cars for the farmers at all times, within a reasonable time. If you compel the railways to do that, and put a penalty on them if they do not do it, you will have no more trouble with elevators, blockades or anything of the kind.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman a question. How many cars

would it be necessary for the Canadian Pacific Railway to have on hand to do as he wants done-to have a car whenever any farmer wants one ?


Nathaniel Boyd: I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, and when we did prophesy you would not believe us. I am not prophesying the number of bushels of grain that will come out of that country ; but I say that the Canadian Pacific Railway or any other railway going into that country to move the crops should be prepared to meet the necessities of the case ; and I am not submitting anything unreasonable. The western states, which control matters of that kind, and not the central government, have such laws as I have mentioned, and have solved the grain difficulty in that way, because they compel the railway companies to give the farmers an equal number of cars with the elevators. When that is done, the farmer can sell to whomsoever he pleases ; and I now ask the government-because it is evident that the measure for aiding the Canadian Pacific Railway is coming down- to see to it, before any further concessions are made to that company, that the farmers shall be protected in the way I suggest. When they do that, there will be very little further difficulty in regard to prices or anything else.
The hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) spoke of double tracks. If we have to wait for double tracks, it will take longer to double track the road between Winnipeg and Port William than it would to build a new road. Three years would not see that portion of the road double tracked.
I could give many details to show the iniquitous working of the present grain Act, but I feel that it would be merely taking up the time of an indifferent House- because the indifference of the House is displayed by the empty benches we see today-and I will leave the responsibility with the government. It was well known that the abundant crops which we have had was coming ; and you need not suppose that that is the only abundant crop we are going to have. We have had many crops equal to the lact crop ; but the acreage under crop is increasing both in Manitoba and the North-west Territories ; and the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories are going to hold the present government responsible for protecting the farmers.
I want to say a word to the hon. Minister of Public Works in regard to this matter. Instead of talking about spending three hundred millions or so on the Georgian Bay canal, he had better give a little consideration to keeping the Lake Superior ports open. That is something that is being done in other northern countries. One-fourth of the amount of money which it is proposed to expend in some directions, if spent in building the proper kind of vessels, would keep open, probably the whole winter, Fort William and other ports on Lake Superior Mr. HEYD.
which can be reached by railroad lines. This is a matter which should engage the attention of the hon. Minister cf Public Works, and I trust that the members from Manitoba and the North-west will be able to bring such pressure to bear upon him and the government that they will feel obliged to give some attention to that matter.


Mr. TALBOT.: Would the hon. gentleman from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) tell us whether that is not the same speech he made in Lisgar during the last campaign ?


Nathaniel Boyd: I am not like the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Talbot). I can make more than one speech.


Mr. W. O. EDWARDS (Russell).: I have no intention of taking up the time of the House at any length on this question, but as it is one in which we are all interested I wish to give my view of the situation. It is not only gentlemen from the west who are interested in the development and the general welfare of our great western country. We all have a deep interest in its future, for on its development and progress depends in a very large measure the prosperity of the whole country . And in considering this question-which Is a very fair one to bring before the House-we should not look merely at one side of it, but discuss it in a reasonable manner from every point of view. The hon. gentleman who last spoke (Mr. Boyd) appears to be under the impression that no matter how great may be our development in any given year, that development should be foreseen by the Canadian Pacific Railway and the other railway companies, and the Canadian government, and every possible preparation made by them to meet it. He seems to think that they should provide every possible facility to meet an extraordinary development of trade without any regard to the risk that their expectations might fail entirely in realization and the requirements be far less than anticipated. What are the conditions to-day not only in Canada but over the entire continent of America ? We are told that in the United States a commission regulates this question. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no commission in the United States, there is no body of men-


Nathaniel Boyd: I did not say anything about a commissioner controlling this matter in the United States. I said it was under state law.


William Cameron Edwards: Well, I say that there is no man or body of men who could have foreseen and been ready for the immense commerce that was developed on the North American continent this past year. Why, two years ago the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Grand Trunk Railway, the Canada Atlantic and all the other railway companies went into building cars as rapidly as they

could, but the expectations of the railway companies, not only in Canada but in the United States, have been greatly exceeded, and the development had been such as to tax these carriers far beyond their capacity, even with all their preparations. I defy any hon. member of this House to name any railway company on the continent of America which has been able to supply all the cars required of it in the past six or nine months. I have no desire to underrate in the slightest degree the importance and the necessity of attending to the requirements of Manitoba and the North-west to the greatest extent possible, but I wish to point out that while Manitoba and the North-west are a great portion of Canada and the North American continent, they are not the entire country. There are other interests which are also entitled to some consideration.
What has been the position ? Simply this, that great and small shippers have had to wait all the way from one week to months for the car supply they required. That has been the condition throughout the entire breadth, not only of this country, but of the United States. To show the great stress to which our carriers have been reduced, let me point out this one fact. Every car which has gone into the United States from Canada has been coralled there, and our Canadian railways have not been able to get them back. For weeks and weeks and months and months these cars have been kept there by the American companies. That is the position. Manitoba and the North-west having doubled their products, naturally have suffered and they have all our sympathies, but I would like to throw out a suggestion. In the short period of time between the harvesting of the crop in the North-west and the following winter, It is perfectly impossible for any railway system to move all that crop, and it will become more and more necessary, as that country develops, for a very large portion of its grain to be stored there until the following year. One of the great difficulties is that the people of Manitoba and the North-west themselves have not taken the means to take care of their own grain ; but they will have to provide against the inevitable and do this, for it is certainly perfectly impossible that any railway system nr government can supply the means of tak.ng care of the whole crop of that country in the short time demanded. It would be just as reasonable To expect them to take care of all the produce of the eastern portion of Canada and supply warehouses for it. While the government and the Canadian Pacific Railway are doing everything possible, the people of that country must do something for themselves. The farmers must provide means for holding, their crops until these crops can be shipped. Besides it is an unwise policy, from a business point of view, to insist on the grain being moved into warehouses and forced out of that country so rapidly. The inevitable effect of such a policy would simply be to weaken the price. Let the farmers make some provision to take care of their grain so that they may command the best prices, and they will then be much better off than they could possibly be, even if they had all the facilities they ask to be furnished with by the railway companies and the government. I simply wish to point out the situation as I understand it, as a business man. I know what it means, for I myself have suffered severely. I venture to say that I have suffered to a far greater extent than many farmers put together, but I do not necessarily jump to the conclusion that it is the fault of the government or the railway companies. Not at all. It is in the interests of the railway companies to facilitate, in every way possible, the requirements of the shipper, and they are doing their very best to meet these requirements. They are doing that for their own profit. I know what car building has been going on. Why, in the past two years car building has gone on to an extent that it never did before, and if the business of America develops in the next two years, as it has done in the past two years, it will be perfectly impossible for the railway companies to overtake the business.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I do not pretend to be a practical man on this question but I have listened with a great deal of interest to what has been said, and can approach this subject with an open mind. I think that our farmers, who seem disposed to lay the blame on the Canadian Pacific Railway and the government, are not as reasonable as they would expect other people to be. I do not see how they could have expected either the government or the Canadian Pacific Railway to have prepared facilities for bringing their grain to market as rapidly as they would wish. How can they expect one or two railway companies or a government to move the entire crop of the North-west and Manitoba in the short period of three months. It seems to me that in expecting this, they are very unreasonable. They must give us time to realize what a tremendous country we have in that North-west, and make adequate provisions to remove all that grain. There is a great deal in what was said by my hon. friend from Russell (Mr. Edwards) that the people of Manitoba and the North-west should assist a little more than they are doing, instead of looking to the government to relieve them of the necessity of doing anything to help themselves. The farmer of Ontario has to make provision to take care of his stuff and to sell it when the market is right. But our friends in the North-west want to make no provision at all ; apparently they want everything to be provided by the government or the railway, so that they may be saved the expense of

building barns to store their own grain. I think they are a little unreasonable.


William Forsythe McCreary: I submit that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) has no justification for any such impression in any speech that has been made here. The statements made were statements of fact-that such a state of affairs existed; and the government is asked to look* into that state of affairs and, if possible, provide a remedy. There is not a man in the North-west but gives full credit to the Canadian Pacific Railway for the work it has done this year. I myself cited the figures showing that they had moved 35 per cent more wheat and 125 per cent more oats than up to the same time in 1899. One of the remedies the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) suggests is that the farmers should be encouraged to build granaries for the storage of their wheat. No doubt, that is one of the things that the government would consider, and possibly, recommend. The hon. gentleman should not state that we condemn the Canadian Pacific Railway or that our farmers are unreasonable in their demands, for nothing is intended to be conveyed that would justify such an impression.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I gather from the addresses made here to-day that the Canadian Pacific Railway was condemned because they had not omniscience to foresee the tremendous development that would take place in Manitoba and the North-west and make provision in rolling stock to move the whole crop within three months. But none of these hon. gentlemen told us what the Canadian Pacific Railway would do with this tremendous equipment if, instead of the enormous crop that was gathered, there happened to be a poor crop and no need for these transportation facilities. These are things that must be reconciled. We must not expect too much of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I was out in the North-west country this year. I was in places where wheat fields had extended as far as the eye could see; and it was plain to me that one railway, or two railways, or even six railways, could not move the crop that had been gathered. Our friends must be reasonable. They are anxious that we should provide them with railway and shipping facilities so that then-grain may reach distant markets, but they do not want to do what they might do. They want to impress it upon us that they are the country. But they must do a little do not want to do what they might do. They want to bring the money back to Manitoba and then go to the United States and buy their agricultural implements.


William Forsythe McCreary: Then, let us ship our grain by Duluth.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: The Ontario farmer and the Quebec farmer and the agriculturist in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia do not care two Mr. HEYD.
pins whether you move your grain from Manitoba in 3 months or not. They are not interested in that question, for you are competitors with them in the market.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I beg the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Heyd) pardon-we are interested in the general prosperity of the country.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I am willing to admit that we are all interested in the general prosperity of the country. But I am dealing with a phase of this question which has been presented to us by one of the hon. gentlemen who spoke. He objected, apparently, to any attempt to develop any interest In the country except that of raising grain and building up the North-west, while the interests of Ontario and the North-west are not exactly identical. We are quite willing that they should raise grain in the North-west; we are quite willing that the people of Ontario should be taxed to carry that grain to the European market. But we want the people of the North-west to buy their agricultural implements from the people of Ontario, and not go to the people of the United States to buy them. Therefore, holding the views I do, I think the people of the North-west should modify their expectations considerably. And, I would not be willing to tax the people of Ontario and Quebec to build railways and assist them in marketing their products in Europe, unless they are willing to assist us in securing the Manitoba trade.


James Moffat Douglas: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) one question. Is it a fact that the manufacturers of Canada can sell agricultural implements at a much lower rate in foreign countries than they do in Manitoba and the North-west Territories ?


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I am not in the agricultural implement business, but I do not believe they do.


Mr.  A. W.@: I do not rise with the hope of adding anything to the debate, as the ground has been pretty well traversed, but to enter a protest against some of the remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) who has just taken his seat. He says that the people of the eastern provinces are not interested in the moving of the grain from the North-west. That is a remarkable statement.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: I did not say that. I say that we are not interested in the same direction as the people of the North-west.


Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).: Not to the same extent, possibly.


Mr.  C. B. HE YD@South Brant: Well, to the same extent.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) speaks as he does because we are in the habit of buying a portion of

our agricultural Implements from the Americans. The hon. gentleman must remember that the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has given a very good reason, and that is that, to-day, the agricultural implement makers of Canada are exporting implements and selling them cheaper in the commonwealth of Australia, than they sell them in the Dominion of Canada. That is a fact that has been stated by the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton), whom the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heyd) is fond of calling one of his leaders. I do not desire to make any unreasonable charges against the Canadian Pacific Railway for their inability to move the crop in the short space of time between harvest and the close of navigation. We know that, with their present facilities, it would be impossible for three Canadian Pacific Railways to move the crop we have there in that length of time. But we say that they could have anticipated the great crop which was gathered as early as the month of July. Our provincial government issues a crop bulletin every month. I have here a copy of the bulletin for July, and in that bulletin it is stated that there was a prospect of fifty or sixty millions bushels of wheat alone being raised in that country. We ask why it was that the Canadian Pacific Railway did not take care, in anticipation of that crop, to prepare the facilities to move the grain and so give the farmers relief ? Now, of course, in one way that is not an unmixed evil. In fact, it is a splendid advertisement for us that we in the province of Manitoba alone have been able to raise 65,000,000 bushels of grain and have harvested far more than the railway can carry away. But, as we look to the future we see the prospect of a rapidly-increasing crop year by year. The hon. gentleman from South Brant (Mr. Heyd) stated that it was unreasonable to expect the Canadian Pacific Railway to load themselves up with rolling stock to move our extra big crop, because in other years, we might not have any grain to move. That condition, I believe, has not arisen in the past, and assuredly it will not arise in the future. Population is flowing into that country, and every year we are bound to require additional facilities, because our crop will be increased each year. To-day we find this condition of affairs-not only are the terminal elevators at the head of navigation full, but so is every elevator in Manitoba and the North-west. Every elevator and flat warehouse, every place where grain can be stored is full to overflowing. And not only that, but we find that at each little station, not only along the main line, but on the branch railways, are piles of grain in bags standing out exposed to the weather for two months past. Had the Canadian Pacific Railway taken precautions, they might have had sufficient rolling stock to relieve this congestion. One portion of our population is dependent on the other, and when the hon. member states that the
farmers of the east are not particularly interested in the moving of the wheat from the west, he must remember how far this chain of interdependence runs. If a farmer of the North-west cannot sell his grain, he cannot pay his debts. Then the merchants and other trades people who are doing business with him cannot make their collections and cannot pay the wholesale men. It is largely to the wholesale men of the east that we have to look for our supplies, as the west is not a manufacturing country, and we have to import largely from the manufacturers of eastern. Canada. So it is absurd to say that the people of the east are not interested in seeing that the western farmers have facilities for moving their crops, for we are all one people dependent on each other in that respect. Times are not so good in that country this winter as they should be, as they would have been had the farmers been able to dispose of their immense crop. We have found great stringency in the money market, comparatively speaking, in consequence of the farmers having had their grain tied up; indeed much of it is in their hands even at the present time. So that everything that can be dSne by this government to bring pressure to bear upon the transportation companies to increase their facilities, will be welcomed by the people of the west. At this time especially when the Canadian Pacific Railway is making an application to pariament for a loan, I believe, to assist them in the construction of their lines-


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The hon. gentleman is mistaken.


William James Roche: To increase their stock, the government should take advantage of the opportunity to bring pressure to bear upon that line before these favours are granted, and they should insist that something more shall be done in the future than has been done in the past to assist the farmer in moving his grain from year to year. So far as the province of Manitoba is concerned, owing to the agreement that was made between the Manitoba government and the Canadian Northern Railway during the past year, we do not expect that in the future we will be tied up to the same extent as we have been during the past year. Notwithstanding the wail and the lament that was made by many who opposed that bargain last year, it has turned out to be one of the most popular measures the Manitoba government has ever undertaken. As a result of that agreement additional facilities have been afforded during the last few weeks by the Canadian Northern elevator at Fort William to an extent of 1,000,000 or 1,500,000 bushels. But the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian Northern will have to quadruple or at any rate treble their rolling stock in order to move the succeeding crops of that country. The Winnipeg Board of Trade, I believe, have

recently waited upon the Canadian Pacific Railway authorities and asked them if they would divert some of their grain to the line of the Canadian Northern until this elevator at Fort William was filled up, but the Canadian Pacific Railway have absolutely refused to do so, they have absolutely refused to have any interchange of traffic; but they have declared, I suppose merely for the purpose of putting the people off, that it was their intention to enter into negotiations, and I think they say they have completed negotiations, by which they will divert some of their grain via the Great Northern to Duluth and other American ports. However, we are not very particular at the present time to what port the grain goes so long as we can get it to market in proper time, and the farmer gets bis money for it.
I was pleased to hear from the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) that it is the intention of the hon. Minister of the Interior, upon his return to the House, to introduce some amendments to the Grain Act. There is no doubt that our farmers have been compelled, because of lack of facilities during the past year, to take very much less for their grain than tfley would have otherwise received. It has been proved by investigations made by the local legislature of Manitoba during the past few weeks that a combine has existed in the grain trade in that country, and this Grain Act has largely assisted in rendering that combine possible, and as a result the farmers have had to take much less for their grain. I have no doubt that the Minister of the Interior, during his campaign in the constituency of Lisgar, brushed up against many farmers who pointed out to him the great opportunities afforded in the present Grain Act for fraud, and I am pleased to hear that it is his intention to bring in amendments to make this Act more perfect.


Mr. WALTER SCOTT (West Assiniboia).: I agree with most of the remarks made by the hon. member (Mr. Roche, Marquette) who has taken his seat, and with the larger portion of the remarks made by other hon. gentlemen this afternoon. But the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Heyd) and the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Edwards) gave some advice to the people of the North-west, based possibly upon imperfect information. My hon. friend from Russell contended that the farmers of the Northwest themselves should provide sufficient warehouses to safeguard their wheat crop.


William Cameron Edwards: No.


Thomas Walter Scott: I am referring now to some advice which was given by the hon. member for Russell, if I recollect his remarks aright.


William Cameron Edwards: Entirely wrong.


Thomas Walter Scott: At all events, who ever made the remark, I think it will have to Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).
be admitted by hon. gentlemen who were in the House two or three sessions ago, that the contention the member for East Assiniboia made was that liberty should be given to the farmers of the North-west Territories to build warehouses along the line of railway where they are demanded-


William Cameron Edwards: May I be allowed to correct the hon. gentleman ? I made no suggestion at all about building warehouses. I merely suggested that in view of the short time available for moving the crop in the autumn, it was in my opinion detrimental to the farmers themselves to force their crop upon the market. I said nothing at all about building warehouses. I said I considered it advisable, in the interests of the farmers themselves, to make some provision whereby they could hold at least a portion of their crop for a time, and not force it so rapidly upon the market.


Thomas Walter Scott: 
Nathaniel Boyd: May I ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) if he is not aware, and if the country is not aware that a month before the date he mentioned, the Manitoba government had advertised for 20,000 men to take that crop out ?


Thomas Walter Scott: I believe that is a fact and that of the 20,000 men, or whatever number of men came up, all were required and that more would have got work had they come. Even had everybody known that we would have had that amount of grain, I think it is quite likely that the Canadian Pacific Railway would have found it impossible to provide more facilities than they did when they came to handle the crop. But, this is the complaint we have against the Canadian Pacific Railway ; up to the close of navigation they did the best they could with their facilities. Navigation closed some time

about the end of November, or early in December, and before the first of January every terminal elevator and every elevator in the country was full to the brim of wheat and since the first of January the blockade has been complete. Practically everybody in the wheat section, boards of trade, town councils and governments, have been exercised over that question and have been passing resolutions. I have here a large number of these resolutions but I will not detain the House by reading them. In these resolutions it is urged that pressure should be brought upon the Canadian Pacific Railway to do whatever is possible to relieve the situation. One suggestion made by the Minister of Agriculture in the Territorial government was that grain might be taken over the Soo line via Minneapolis and Duluth. At Duluth they had storage capacity open for 10,000,000 bushels during January and February, but the Canadian Pacific Railway refused to take any grain over the Soo line and refused also to hand grain over to the Canada Northern Railway Company, which had space for 1,500,000 bushels at Port Arthur. It might be said that it was open for the farmers to ship over the Soo if they desired to do so, but the grain rate from Moosejaw to Fort William is twenty cents a bushel and to Duluth thirty cents, so that it would be unreasonable to expect farmers on their own account to endeavour to ship their grain over the Soo line. The fact that this suggestion was a feasible one is proved by a telegram which was published in the Toronto Globe ' on Saturday last, and which is as follows :
Wheat, shipments in the west are again lively. Along the C.P.R. points yesterday there were 110,000 bushels of wheat marketed and the company claim that they will ship from now on, so that wheat can be stored at country points at the rate of over 100,000 bushels a day, or 1,000,000 bushels a week. Shipments are now nearly all being made over the 'Soo' line. The freight department have discovered that it is good policy to allow shipments to go over this route to Duluth. There is an enormous amount of wheat still in western farmers' hands, which will have to be delivered at elevators at stations along the C.P.R.
Had tbe Canadian Pacific Railway been ready to make shipments to Duluth, during January and February, if this statement Is true that from now on they can remove
1,000,000 bushels a week by that route, they might have taken 8,000,000 bushels more wheat out of the country and the congestion would have been relieved to that extent. It is not alone because of the liability of their grain to destruction that the farmers have been losing. They have not of course lost in that way yet, but there is a great likelihood that the farmers will lose very largely by the spoiling of their grain in the spring when wet weather comes, because very much of it is stored in places not weather proof. In several ways there have been serious losses. One of the Mr. SCOTT.
most serious has been the depression of the price, about which there has been so much discussion this afternoon. There cannot be any doubt at all about this depreciation in price. The existing conditions have enabled a grain combine to be formed there. I quite agree with remarks made by the hon. gentlemen opposite to the effect, that there was this year a hard and fast grain buyers combine in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. I agree in that opinion entirely. There is no question but that this is a fact. The possibilities of a grain combine have been brought about by the congestion, and that of course was because the railway company was unable to take out the grain in proper time. In my own town of Regina, at present, I believe that the conditions are depressing the price to the extent of eight or nine cents a bushel, and that means a tremendous loss indeed. The day before I left Regina, last week, a farmer who lives about four miles from the town and who is one of our largest farmers, growing a considerable amount of Wheat, showed me a letter which he had received from a commission dealer in an eastern city, offering him in Regina 58 cents for No. 1 Northern, while the street price in Regina at that time was only 49 cents. There is no question at all but that the difference of nine cents a bushel was brought about directly by a combine among the dealers, and indirectly by the congestion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the aggregate capacity of the elevators in Manitoba and the North-west Territories.


Thomas Walter Scott: It was stated by my hon. friend (Mr. Douglas) that it is between
21,000,000 and 22,000,000 bushels. That is in addition to the space in the terminal elevators.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Thomas Walter Scott: Mr. Speaker, when you left the Chair at six o'clock, I was pointing out the serious losses entailed on farmers of Manitoba and the Territories during the past season by the want of transportation facilities-the loss through the depreciation in price and through the degradation of the grade. This was alluded to by my hon. friend from East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas), who stated that the elevator men refused to buy No. 1 hard wheat. At Regina and other points with which I am familiar, I am not aware that the elevator men stated that they were not buying No. 1 hard wheat: but what did occur was this : When a farmer arrived at the elevator with a load of wheat, which would grade No. 1 hard, or possibly No. 1 northern, he was told by the elevator manager that the bin for that grade was filled, but that if he was willing to sell it as a lower grade, it could be taken. For weeks

farmers at Regina were obliged to sell No. 1 northern as No. 2 northern, at a loss of three or four cents a bushel. Then, there was serious loss occasioned to the farmers after the middle of December and during the months of January and February by their total inability to sell their grain. A farmer might have 3,000 or 4,000 bushels, and he might be obliged to purchase some articles in town. If he was unable to dispose of his grain, he had to borrow money at a high rate of interest to procure his necessary supplies, or else go into debt to the merchant, in which case he was obliged to pay interest on his debt, and the merchant in turn was obliged to pay interest to the wholesaler. In this way serious loss was occasioned to the whole country; and this condition of things made money tight and business not as good as it would otherwise be.
Whatever the farmers ought to have done, there is no question that up to the present time they have not made provision for storing grain on their farms, and it is my opinion, from what I know of the conditions in our North-west, and from what I have found the conditions to be in the western states, that this will never be feasible in the west, as it is in Ontario. Imagine such an instance as I mentioned this afternoon- that of one family that raised 70,000 bushels of grain. Imagine their making provision for the storing of the grain in the straw, or even the threshed grain, on their farm, some miles from the railway. The conditions of farming in the west are such that to carry on the business the farmers are obliged to get their grain to the nearest railway point as speedily as possible. The usual plan is to draw it from the thresher to the warehouse on the line of railway. Then, there is the liability of loss by destruction of unprotected grain by spring rains, due entirely to the inability of the railway company to carry the grain out. The loss through depreciation in price and the degradation of the grade was due to the operation of the grain-dealers' combine. Some of our hon. friends opposite declared there was a combine, and in my remarks before six o'clock I agreed with that statement. There has been a grain-dealers' combine in operation during the last season, notwithstanding the existence of the Manitoba Grain Act. That combine was made possible through the congestion of the traffic. The Manitoba Grain Act has not yet had a fair trial. In the year 1900 we had a light crop, and the Act worked very well; but in that year it had not a fair test. In 1901 conditions were at the opposite extreme; compared with other years we had two crops in the one season. I believe-and the farmers of my acquaintance with whom I have talked and who are willing to be fair about the matter, believe-that the Manitoba Grain Act in principle is a fair Act, and will under ordinary conditions remove to a large extent the grievances that
existed before 1900. Last year there was an absolute congestion of traffic, and the railway company was unable to furnish cars to be loaded by the farmers at their pleasure; so that the farmers had not that freedom which the Manitoba Grain Act contemplated they should have in the disposal of their wheat. I quite agree that some changes in the Grain Act are required to make it more perfect in its operation. While I am quite willing to admit that it would have been totally impossible for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company last season to furnish cars to every farmer who wished to load on the cars, still it is a bad commentary on this government and this parliament that they should pass an express provision declaring that the railway company should furnish cars to certain people on request, and the company should disregard that provision and state openly that they would not obey it. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company last season more than once issued instructions to their agents not to furnish cars to farmers; and these were cases in which they could have done so. For instance, a farmer would go to an agent at a station where cars were standing idle, and the agent would tell him that he had instructions not to allow farmers to load their grain on to the cars. The railway company denied that they had issued such instructions; but I have good reason for stating that at the present time there exists an order issued from the headquarters of the company at Winnipeg to their agents throughout the North-west Territories, not to give a car to a farmer to be loaded with wheat. That being the case, it behooves the government and parliament to take some notice of the matter. Is this railway company strong enough to flaunt its refusal to obey an Act of parliament in the face of the government and parliament ?
Contrary to what an hon. gentleman opposite said this afternoon, I have been pleased to see the interest taken by the House in this question. While the views of some gentlemen from Ontario do not coincide with mine or with those of other gentlemen from the North-west, still we are glad to see our friends from the other provinces taking an interest in this very important matter. I was glad to notice this afternoon the interest which the members of the government were evincing in the question. I do not remember that last session on any subject more members of the government occupied their seats for a greater length of time than was the case this afternoon; and I thought it was a little unfair for the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) to choose a moment when the Prime Minister was called out of the Chamber for a few minutes, to call attention to the fact that his seat was vacant. This afternoon nearly every one of the government seats was filled during the discussion of this question. Now the points on which I wish to lay emphasis are these ;

First, tlie grain warehouses for the accommodation of the prairie settlers must necessarily be on the line of railway. This is one respect in which I think it is possible to improve the Manitoba Grain Act. At the present time there is some restriction placed on the farmers in regard to the building of grain warehouses. To be most convenient they should be on the line of railway. My hon. friend from Bast Assiniboia spoke of the number of warehouses built by farmers in the attempt to relieve the congestion-in Wolseley, 64, and at Indian Head 115. 1 came through there a little later than my hon. friend, and I was told that at that time there were 127 erected and a number of others in course of construction. These small warehouses or granaries are all off the line of railway, not being permitted by the Grain Act to be built on the line of railway. The result is that the farmers will have to load the wheat on wagons and drive it to the railway and load it on to the cars. I think the Grain Act should be amended so as to remove that restriction, and to permit all needed warehouses to be built on the line of railway, so that farmers will be enabled to load their wheat direct from these granaries to the cars.
Some hon. members say that it is unreasonable to expect the railway companies to have facilities to move the tremendous crop in the short time at their disposal. Now no one expects them to move the entire crop. That tremendous crop will never be all offered for shipment during the season. This year, not more than one-third-certainly not more than one-half-was offered before the close of navigation, and after the close of navigation people do not expect to have their wheat carried away. They do not wish to pay the extra freight necessary to have it carried all rail. This year, however, when a great deal of their wheat is lying unprotected, ready to be spoiled by the first rain, they are willing to pay any price in order to escape from that unfortunate position. They do not expect to have all their wheat moved before the close of navigation, but they expect to have facilities provided so as to enable them to sell sufficient during the season of navigation to give them the money they require to carry on their operations during the winter. That is all they ask, and they can wait until the spring to ship the balance. In the United States the railways have facilities to accept and satisfactorily handle all the wheat offered, and no other condition will be satisfactory to our people or conduce to the progress and prosperity of the country. What is absolutely required is the necessary facilities to handle all the wheat offered and thus avoid the congestion of traffic which has existed during the past season and still exists.
I do not wish my remarks to be misunderstood. I do not wish to be understood as making a complaint-very much of a com-Mr. SCOTT.
plaint at least-against the railway companies. I am not complaining of the railway companies for not having had the necessary facilities. I do not think it is reasonable to say that they should have had them. No one of us could have foreseen or did foresee the crop we have had, and even had we foreseen that crop, the conditions were such that no railway company could have procured the equipment required. The unprecedented yield made a car shortage inevitable. I may say the term ' car shortage ' is a misnomer. What was lacking was not railway track or cars, but locomotives, motive power. But what I do complain of is the refusal of the Canadian Pacific Railway to send out wheat by the Soo route. According to the despatch I have read, it might have taken out seven million or eight million bushels by that route during January and February.
Nor do I wish to be understood as making any serious complaint against the government. The government were powerless to order the Canadian Pacific Railway to purchase so many cars and locomotives. But when I refer to what a government can do, let me say that a poor weak government did succeed in doing something for the people by exercising what persuasive influence it had and prevailing on the Canadian Pacific Railway, as the Commissioner of Agriculture of the North-west Territories did, to send out wheat by the Soo route. Well, if the Commissioner of Agriculture of the Northwest Territories could bring that amount of persuasive influence to bear on the Canadian Pacific Railway, it is just possible that had the powerful influence of this government been exercised, the decision of the Canadian Pacific Railway to carry grain by that route and thus relieve the congestion, might have been reached sooner than it was.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. gentleman who has just spoken has referred to the condition of things which, I was going to say unhappily-but I will not say unhappily because the reverse is the case-the condition of things which happily existed in Manitoba and the Northwest during the past year. It was fortunate for the people of that country that they had such a very large crop, and that the difficulties of which they complain were due to their good fortune. The crop in that country was much larger than expected, and proper provision had not been made for the handling of it as rapidly as the necessities of the country required in order to obtain the best results. There was consequently a congestion in the elevators and a shortage of cars which prevented the railway companies from handling the traffic as effectively and rapidly as the necessities of the case demanded. There was a shortage of elevators, not only in that country but outside as well-in Port Arthur and the various ports on Georgian Bay. At

present, liowever, a vigorous effort is being made to remedy that shortage. We see by the reports in the press, a few days ago that the Canadian Pacific Railway are beginning already to build a very much larger elevator at Port Arthur, and no doubt the various companies are now undertaking the construction of a large additional number of elevators in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, which will help to improve the situation. But the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) endeavoured, at the outset of his remarks, to fasten upon the previous government the responsibility for the unfortunate conditions that exist to-day. In my judgment, he did not succeed very well in- his attempt. He said that the previous government had fastened shackles on trade. I would like to ask him what shackles on the trade of that country did the previous government fasten. What would that country be today, what would the condition of its farmers be, had it not been for the conduct of the previous government in building the first railway that traversed that country and really the only railway service which it has had practically up to within a few months. There may have been some conditions that prejudicially affected the situation, but the hon. gentleman forgot that his friends had pledged themselves to remove all hampering conditions as soon as they got into power. Well, they have been in power nearly six years, they have had every opportunity to bring their great ability to bear on the situation, and yet we to-day have complaints made on the unfortunate condition of the farmers in that country. Evidently the hon. gentleman's friends have not been very successful In their efforts to remove all evils and all cause of complaint. My hon. friend referred to the Grain Act that was passed a few years ago, and gave this government credit for some important provisions in that Act which have inured to the benefit of the farmers. Well, I believe there are some good provisions in that Act, but when it was under discussion the very provisions which, in the judgment of many members of Manitoba and the North-west-especially the hon. member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas)-and which that hon. gentleman endeavoured to get incorporated in to that Act to meet the requirements of the situation, were the very ones which the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton) and the present government fought against.


Thomas Walter Scott: Was the hon. gentleman not with the Minister of the Interior then ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, I supported the contentions put forward by my hon. friend from Eastern Assiniboia, because I believed they were in the interests of the country. It is the hon. gentleman's own friends who are responsible for the present condition of affairs. It was they who pledged them-30
selves to redress these grievances and give the people the advantage they were entitled to, and it is their failure to carry out this- as they have failed to carry out all their other jdedges-to which is due the difficulties now complained of.
Now, could the present government have remedied the situation ? Well, what are the troubles complained of ? The first is that a railway company will not allow to farmers the same use of cars that they allow to the large grain buyers and elevator owners-in fact, the railway, it is said, discriminates against the small buyer, and the small shipper. The government has power to remedy that evil. The Railway Act provides that there shall be no discrimination as between shippers, and the Railway Committee of the Privy Council was especially established to enforce these rights when application was made to It. Had that body fulfilled its duty, we should not hear the complaints we do to-day. The government, then, has the power to remedy the evil and if the evil is not remedied, the government and the government alone, must be held responsible. The hon. member stated, as also did one of the previous speakers-and I believe correctly, that there was some sort of combine or understanding among the grain buyers. Are these hon. gentlemen not aware that the present government asked to be returned to power to fight these combines, and declared that if the people would give them their confidence, they would make it one of their first duties to break the combines and prevent the dangerous results of their operations ? These hon. gentlemen have been in power nearly six years. And have they broken the combines? Not at all; we have these complaints as much now as we did five years ago. These hon. gentlemen who support this government, and who, I suppose, speak by the book, declare that these combines exist today, to the detriment of the farming interest in the North-west. If these grievances are not redressed, the government must be held responsible. The farmers complain that they have not the freedom to load on cars from the platform. Who could give them that right ? The government, certainly, The farmers say that they should have the right to build small elevators along the railway. Who could secure to them that right ? The Railway Committee of the Privy Council. Yet, they have never done it nor, so far as we know have they ever even made the effort to secure this right to the farmer. It is said that the people of the country require more railway facilities. We know they do. That grievance is being remedied very rapidly. Another road has reached that country, and the people of Manitoba and the North-west will soon be in the position of not being obliged to depend upon one road. I have no doubt that both the railways that are operating in that country to-day desire to extend their lines as



rapidly as possible so as to enable the people of that country to carry on their operations to advantage, and also to gain success for themselves. The hon. gentleman tells us that the farmers require the same freedom that has been secured to the farmers of the United States. There is no power in this country to secure for the people their rights except the government; and if the farmers still complain, they must hold to responsibility those who have the power to remedy grievances, but do not use it. No doubt the hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) will tell us that the great remedy is to make the French river canal and allow the grain to have an outlet by water to North Bay. That would be a remedy, but it is for the minister to show us that it is wise to spend so much to accomplish so little. But that would not directly meet the wants of the farmers of the North-west. No doubt, the operations going on to-day in the ports of Georgian Bay are calculated largely to help the people of the North-west. Take the elevators that are going up at Midland, Owen Sound? Collingwood, Meaford and Kin-kardine. All these improvements are designed to assist in handling the products of that country. The number of these elevators is increasing every year. Last year, just before the close of navigation a large elevator was built at Meaford, and a splendid harbour and other facilities provided, and a large amount of trade was actually handled in the short time between the completion of these works and the close of navigation. X say this to show that conditions are changing and that, in the future, large, if not ample provisions will be made to handle the trade which we may expect in a successful year to originate in the North-west. The people of that country require more railway facilities. These, I say, are being rapidly provided.	They require greater elevator facilities at Port Arthur-double, or even treble what they have to-day. They require a large number of elevators throughout the country. And they require the greatest freedom to every farmer or combination of farmers to build elevataors along the track, and the right to load their cars from the platform. And, I say that the government should force the railway company to concede that right. They have the power to do it, and if it is not done, it is because the government refuses to exercise the power with which it is clothed. If the government will do their duty in these matters, they will soon relieve the glut and do away with all the trouble that exists. So far as the members from Ontario can assist in accomplishing these reforms they are anxious to do so. For we feel interested, knowing that the progress of Manitoba and the Northwest is of great advantage to us. None of us are living for ourselves alone or for the locality alone in which we reside. We have an earnest desire to remove all obstac-Mr. SPROULE.
les from the prosperity of the people of the North-west, knowing that their prosperity will bring the best results for us. So far as these grievances can be remedied, the government of the day must be held responsible for them, for, by an exertion of their power, they could relieve the farmers of the grievances of which they complain.


Mr.  A. A. G.@: 
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: The discussion in which we are now engaged should be sufficient to prove that we have a great country, that we have a magnificent future before us. We have raised this year 100 million bushels of grain in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. We have a powerful system of 30*
railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway in fact is one of the great railway systems of the world. But in spite of its vast resources that system has been unable to grapple with the situation. Before the close of navigation that railway carried to Fort William
12,000,000 bushels of wheat. I am sorry to say that out of that 12,000,000 bushels nearly 5,000,000 bushels were carried to Buffalo, in other words, we have not beeu able to handle more than 7,000,000 bushels of wheat in Canadian waters and through Canadian channels. Evidently there is something wrong, we are not in it. My hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) has invited me to pay more attention to the situation in the North-west and a little less to a project which, in his estimation, would involve an expenditure of $300,000,000. Sir, where is the crazy man, where is the fool who contemplates an expenditure of $300,000,000 ? If there is such a man I would like to see his face, either in this parliament or out of it. True, I read in the ' Globe ' a few days ago a correspondence signed by Mr. Loughrin to the effect that I contemplated spending $300,000,000. Mr. Loughrin is well known to me. He is an agent of fire extinguishers. But upon my word, I am surprised that such an important paper as the ' Globe ' has given so much attention to the ideas of that gentleman. Able as he may be as an agent, I decline altogether to be responsible for the expenditure he wants me to incur on the French river. Nobody thinks of such an expenditure of money. What I said to the House on a former occasion, and what I say now is, that it is my belief that for four or five million dollars the French river could be improved and made a magnificent water way. Sir, I venture to make this prophecy, that before we are very much older that project will impose itself on the enlightened public opinion of this country.
I respect very much the views of the ' Globe '. The ' Globe ' is one of the great papers in this country, but, if I may be permitted to say in all deference to my confrere of the ' Globe,' the ' Globe ' has always been, to my knowledge, essentially an opposition paper. It is necessary to have opposition papers. I fully recognize the importance of opposition papers. The ' Globe ' has opposed nearly every large scheme or project that has been carried out in this country. The Canadian Pacific Railway had not a stronger opponent than the ' Globe ' for a time. It was very well then that such a large project should be discussed fully, and the ' Globe ' did that work. It was a useful work. The ' Globe ' is opposing the French river scheme. I make this prophecy that within a short time the * Globe ' as all men of good faith, will be obliged to come around and recognize that the best policy for this country is, Canada for the Canadians in every possible way and manner. Now, Sir, we have not carried

out every large project in the past, not because we have not been willing, but because it has not been possible to do everything at the same time. I have listened with very great attention to the suggestions made this afternoon. Some of our friends from the Nortli-west have invited us to build new railways, but, before making up our minds upon such projects we must think a little. We have already two important railways in Manitoba and the North-west. The Canadian Pacific Railway has done, as must be admitted, all that was possible to expect from a large corporation this year. They have not been able to grapple with the situation in a successful manner, but it is admittedly known that they have done everything they could. They bought as many locomotives as money could buy, they bought as many cars as money could buy. Now, they must add to their elevating power and rolling stock. The government have allowed them, under certain conditions, to issue new stock for $20,000,000 to increase their power all over the country. Our friends from the North-west and Manitoba will derive very large benefit from that increase of capital. It is not a favour that we have granted them. I strongly object to the word that has been used by some hon. gentlemen. It is no favour. The Canadian Pacific Railway have simply asked permission to add to their debt, because, by adding to their debt, they are increasing their power and strength for the benefit of this Canadian nation. Now, our friends in the North-west have a population of 400,000 people in round numbers. That is about the population of Montreal. We expect a great many things from them in the future. Canada is deeply interested in the development of the North-west, but our friends from that section of the country must not forget, as they were told to-day, that they are not the whole country.


William Forsythe McCreary: You did not think we -were, when you only put $5,000 in your estimates for public works.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My estimates have always been fair to Manitoba, the estimates of the country have always been fair to Manitoba, and if I call the attention of hon. gentlemen to other parts of the country it is only in answer to what the hon. member for East Assiuiboia (Mr. Douglas) has said. He has invited us, or a good many of us, to renounce the heresy of protection altogether. Well, I have never tried to hide my views upon that point. I do not intend to do that in future-not by any means. This country is one country. If we are going to be something, if we have confidence in ourselves, and if we have the hope that we will be a nation, we must be one nation from beginning to end, from one end of the country to the other. The country is prepared, I may say, to give to the North-west Territories cheap transportation, Hon. Mr. TARTE.
as cheap transportation as it is possible to give to them, but, they must not ask us to destroy our cities, or to destroy our national industries to do that. We could not do that. I am sure that I am expressing the feeling, the sentiment and the opinion of the vast majority of the Canadian people in stating the view I am stating here to-night. It is impossible not to admit that cheap transportation and a tariff, in a large national sense, go together. We will carry Manitoba wheat, Manitoba oats, and Manitoba products cheaply. The railways, and the fleets that will carry Manitoba wheat freely and cheaply, will carry to the west, the products of the east. We are not going,
I hope, to give up the idea of having winter ports. Portland is a nice port, New York is a fine port, Philadelphia and Boston are very nice ports, but we must have Canadian ports. We must have winter ports as we have summer ports. In other words, this country must be bound together solidly. There is no reason why the manufacturers of this country cannot supply our Manitoba and North-west friends with their products just as cheaply as the Americans will do it.


James Moffat Douglas: Why do they not ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: They do; I am going to take issue on that point with my hon. friend now. He, or some one else has asked the question : Why do not the Canadian manufacturers of agricultural implements sell us just as cheaply as they sell to the foreigner ? The question has been put in that way. My answer, is this : The American manufacturer sells outside of his own country, on many and many an occasion, cheaper than he sells in the American market, and the Canadian manufacturer does the same thing on many an occasion. But, 1 am free to admit that that does not prove that the Canadian manufacturer cannot sell just as cheaply as the American manufacturer can. The Canadian manufacturer, if he wants to compete in a foreign market, must meet his American rival in the foreign market at the same price. It does not prove that if the tariff were lower we would get our goads cheaper. Very far from it. My friend should never lose sight of this fact that if we would allow our Canadian industries to be slaughtered by the Americans, the very day the Americans would be masters of this Canadian market the prices would be raised and I, for one, as long as I have a seat in this parliament, will stand by the doctrine that we must take care of our industries with the same deep attention as we must take care of our transportation. Mr. Speaker, let us be Canadians. As I said a minute ago, we have a great future. What immense possibilities have we not ? When we remember that with a population of less than 400,000 souls in the North-west Territories, we have been able to produce this

year 100,000,000 bushels of grain, I say that we have possibilities that it is difficult to foresee or understand now. We must provide for railway facilities; we must provide lor elevating facilities. Our elevating power represents only 15,000,000 bushels and it is not available at all seasons of the year. At Fort William, the Canadian Pacific Railway have to-day, if I am well informed, an elevating capacity of but 5,000,000 bushels. I am glad to be able to say to-night that at this very moment the Canadian Pacific Railway authorities at Montreal are engaged in making arrangements for an addition of 4,500,000 bushels to their elevating capacity at Fort W'illiam. At this very moment while I am on my feet they are negotiating with a large firm in Buffalo for that addition to their elevating capacity. It will be so much gained. I have great hopes also that the Canadian Northern will bring relief to the situation.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the capacity of the Canadian Northern elevator at Fort William ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I am not quite sure that their elevator is quite completed there, but it will be in a few days. It is about 2,000,000 bushels. Now, Sir, when our Canadian grain has reached Fort William and Port Arthur, are we to allow it to be carried to American ports ? Once more I call the attention of the House and of the country to that important question. We have no Canadian bottoms to speak of. I have already said in the House, and I say it again, that the Canadian bottoms on the lakes represent only about 4 per cent of the whole tonnage available for grain. I have here the names and number of the boats and they present only 4 per cent of the lake tonnage. What are we going to do ? What is the Canadian North-west asking the country to do V Hon. gentlemen from the west here have spoken of Duluth and they have reproached the Canadian Pacific Railway for not having sufficient facilities to bring the grain faster and faster and in larger quantities to Duluth. Duluth is not a Canadian port or a Canadian city. I fully recognize that in the present crisis our Canadian friends have to look for an outlet. They are justified in carrying their eyes to Duluth, but I say again that Duluth is not a Canadian port of a Canadian city and it is a standing reproach to all of us here that we have not sooner foreseen the great possibilities of the North-west. Why should Duluth receive 7,000,000 bushels or 8,000,000 bushels or 10,000,000 bushels of Canadian wheat. There is the port of St. John in the winter; there is even Halifax although it is further away, and in the summer months we have Montreal, Three Rivers and Quebec. We have all the ports on the Georgian Bay. I have been accused by some of our friends on the other side, that while I was making
a trip on the Georgian Bay I was in favour of everybody. I am for everybody on the Georgian Bay, and for the excellent reason that all the avenues of trade we have there are not too many to handle the immense quantity of traffic there is in store for us. We are only speaking to-night of Canadian grain, but we must remember that nearly all the centres of trade on the lakes-Duluth, Chicago, Milwaukee-are tributary to the St. Lawrence route. I am amazed and surprised; I am scandalized if I may use the word; when I see and when I read that there are . Canadians who decline to open their eyes to the great necessity for having all our Canadian avenues of trade exploited. Why, what have we to-day ? We have only our canals. My hon. friend from Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) has invited us to close our canals because he says they are no good. He tells us that we must build railways from the North-west to the sea to carry our grain and that we should have no more waterways. If my hon. friend (Mr. Davis) will pardon me, I invite him not to repeat that statement. Our waterways are essential during the time they are opened. They are not sufficient for the reason that they cannot be opened for the whole year round, but I say that our waterways are the necessary implement of our national trade. All the products of Canada cannot be carried at one and the same time to a winter port. That is out of the question, and so our grain has to be stored somewhere and the great problem is to store it just as near to the seaboard as possible. Fort William is one point and Port Arthur is another. We will have other points. Lake Nipissing will be the next point. We will avail I hope of the harbours on the Georgian Bay.
I am glad to see that the Grand Trunk Railway authorities seem to have changed their views. Hitherto it looked as if they had made up their minds to stand by Portland, first, last and all the time. I am glad to have learned during the last three or four days that the Grand Trunk Railway contemplates a change of policy. Let us welcome that. Let us welcome Mr. Hays. Mr. Reeve who wap a Portland man is gone and we wish him all sorts of good things; but let us wish better for Mr. Hays, who I think we may welcome very soon as a Canadian for good. Well, Sir, if the Grand Trunk Railway Company make up their mind to stand by the St. Lawrence route, it will be a great help indeed to our national Canadian transportation. I do not think it is necessary to say much more to-night.
I want to raise my voice once more in this parliament to invite our friends from the North-west not to be sectional, but to remember that we wish well by them, and that we understand the great national importance of the vast territory and the magnificent heritage we have in the Northwest. But they must belong to this coun-

try. They must be Canadians in the broadest sense of the word. We must all be Canadians. Let them remember that we have different conditions existing in different parts of the country, and that we have industries that we cannot possibly sacrifice. My hon. fi'iend from V ictoria (Hon. Mr. Ross)-whom we are all glad to see in good health in spite of his old age cheered the sentiment that was expressed in favour of free trade. He cheers free trade every time it is mentioned in this House. Well, we all respect him very much indeed. We would all like to be free traders. I would like to trade with the whole world. But the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Ross) must not forget-he does not forget,
I am sure-that if his province enters today on the path of prosperity and development, it is because we have-1 do not say that we have gone back on free trade vjews-it is because we have not applied these views as severely as he contemplated them in the past.
This country must not stand by any theories. We are a people of business men, let us do what ordinary business communities do. If our American neighbours wanted to trade with us, if they were willing to give us advantages,,, we would be very glad to try to make some arrangement with them; but they do not want to do so. They would raise their tariff to sixty or seventy per cent, and they would make a slaughter market in Canada. Well, how could we allow them to do so ? I would like, I will say it again, to trade with the whole world ; but you cannot do it, because the whole world does not want to trade with you. Our friends from the North-west must not forget that the large cities are greatly interested in their future development, and we will stand by them every time. They must stand by us every time also. We will give them cheap transportation both by our summer and our winter ports. We are doing it now. I was very sorry to hear some friends on the other side of the House, especially the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Boyd), telling us that this government had not done anything. I do not think it is a boast in my mouth to say that the present government has given more attention to the transportation question that any other government has done in the past; and we have accomplished and are accomplishing more than any other government has done. I admit that the Conservative government built the Canadian Pacific Railway, and it was a great feat. Who denies it ? Nobody does. Now this government is engaged in the solution of the transportation problem. We are solving that problem now. The St. Lawrence is deepened and widened ; all the harbours on the lakes are being equipped ; the port of Montreal and the port of St. John are being equipped.


Nathaniel Boyd: No wheat is going that way.


Hon. Mr. TARTE.: 


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Wheat may go there some day. The Canadian Pacific Railway to-day is taking wheat to the port of St. John direct from the west.


Nathaniel Boyd: Not very much.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, a good deal of it. But why does the Canadian Pacific railway not take more grain there ? Because we have not enough elevator accommodation. When the season closed this year there was not one single bushel of wheat in the elevators at Fort William ; they were all cleaned out. Now, the Canadian Pacific Railway is taking millions of bushels of grain to our winter port; and when the line is improved, as it will be with the additional stock to be issued, it will take more traffic.


Nathaniel Boyd: Do I understand the hon. gentleman to say that they are taking millions of bushels this winter to St. John ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes, and more than that, they are taking every week over twenty-five cars of American meats, canned goods, and so on. The trade at St. John to-day is larger than it has ever been before, and when the Canadian Pacific Railway is improved, I have no doubt that the port of St. John wil receive an immense amount of trade. Our hon. friends from the North-west should not disparage Canadian ideas. I do not see any reason why the Canadian Pacific Railway should not take to the port of St. John, and even to the port of Halifax, a very large quantity of trade. I say even to Halifax, because my hon. friend the leader of the opposition will admit that the same quantity of trade cannot go to a remote port as to a near port. When the fast line shall be established-and it will be established, it is only a question of time-the port of Halifax will necessarily receive a large amount of perishable traffic, which will be a paying traffic. I wanted to say only a few words. The House indeed owes a good deal to my hon. friend from Eastern Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) who has brought to our attention that essentially national problem of transportation. So far as I am concerned, I believe in Canada from that standpoint as from all others. We only need to have enough confidence in ourselves to see the transportation of our products through Canadian channels in both summer and winter. We have only to stand by ourselves also to see our industries develop, so as to be as independent as a nation can be of any foreign nation.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Before the hon. minister takes his seat, during the course of his speech lie referred with satisfaction to a contemplated policy under the new management of the Grand Trunk Railway. May I ask him what winter port the Grand Trunk Railway will use ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: I do not know as to the winter port. I. was speaking especially as to the summer port. For instance, Midland is one of the ports which I think they intend to develop ; and instead of sending their trade during the summer months to an American port, as they have been doing during the last two years, they will send it through a Canadian port.
Hon. WILLIAM ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) The hon. Minister of Public Works paid a high compliment to me, and expressed pleasure that I was healthy. Well, I am glad to say that I am ; but I want to define my own position on this question. I happened to be in this House when the purchase of the great North-west Territories was under consideration, and I may say frankly that I do not believe that any of those who were in the House at that time could foresee the greatness of the inheritance which we were acquiring. We from the east have as much interest and rejoice as much in the prosperity of the North-west as the people who reside in that great country, and we do not wish it to be said that we have any sectional views on the subject. I am one of those who were present when a platform was laid down by the Liberal convention held in this city, and I have never forgotten the principles of that platform to this day. A strict adherence to those principles, as far as possible, was the means of bringing the present government into power ; and the moment we recede from that platform, we forget what is due to ourselves, and what is due to our constituents. I do not at all despise or undervalue Canadian industries or manufacturers. I am pleased to see them occupying the position of prosperity that they do now, but the moment the present government begins to inflict higher burdens on the people they will do something that will lower them in the estimation and confidence of their friends. I am quite satisfied with the present tariff, because I do not think any one would be sufficiently insane to believe that this country is prepared for free trade pure and simple. A revenue tariff is necessary for the prosperity of this country. I am glad to find that the question of transportation is engaging the attention of the government. If our manufacturers are to increase their output, they must seek foreign markets as well as cater for their own. They must send their goods to South Africa and Australia, they must find out what are suitable for those countries, and be furnished facilities to carry our own products to other markets by means of steamers subsidized by our own government. I have a letter from Sydney, N.S.W., in which my correspondent states that that colony-not the commonwealth but New South Wales itself- is sending out five travellers-one to India, one to China, one to Japan, and to different other places in order to seek new avenues
for its surplus products, and that is what our Canadian people and manufacturers should do. They should show more enterprise, and find out what markets can be had for the goods they can supply. I did not intend to speak on this subject at all, because the question will come up in a different way and in more ways than one before the session is over, but I was called to my feet by the remarks made by the hon. Minister of Public Works when I cheered the idea of free trade. Why should the farmers of the North-west be compelled to buy Canadian agricultural implements, if it is in their interest to buy their agricultural implements from the Americans. If they buy from the Americans, it is because they find it more advantageous to do so. It is no doubt because the American manufacturers begin to understand what our people require and give them better terms, because they give them more time to pay and are perhaps not so sharp in their dealings with them as are our Canadian manufacturers. I understand that some Canadian manufacturers have treated some of the earlier settlers in our Northwest perhaps not as considerately as they should have done. I am not in the slightest degree alarmed at. the amount of American manufactures which come into this Dominion. Our people are simply buying where they can get the goods on the best terms, and will buy from the Canadian manufacturers when they can sell them what they require as cheaply and on as good terms as do the Americans. I am not going to deny my free trade principles, as far as they can be carried out, with due consideration for the revenue we require, and the moment the present government begins to increase the tariff, let me say that it will then be taking a step in the wrong direction.


Mr. W. R. BROCK (Centre Toronto).: It is not often that I am able to agree with a member of the present reform government and on this occasion I rise to do so with a great deal of pleasure, for it is really a pleasure to find that common sense will sometimes prevail even in the present Cabinet. I endorse, to a considerable extent, the remarks made by the Minister of Public Works this evening. I endorse those remarks which were distinguished for their common sense. The hon. gentleman who has just spoken (Hon. Mr. Ross), with the distant voice of the past, remembering old things, forgetting that this country is moving, cannot possibly have listened to the voice we heard this evening from our great North-west. No government can disregard that voice and continue in office. We have heard from the farmers of the North-west. They are making great demands on this country, which we are all very much inclined to meet as far as possible. All we ask of them is, as the hon. Minister of Public Works has done, to be reasonable. We ask of them to remember the other provinces. We ask them to re-

member the province of Ontario from which many of them have come. We know what were the struggles of the farmers of Ontario for many long years. No government chopped down the trees and cleared the land for them. But the farmers of the North-west have been placed in possession of a country, when a man can plough the ground at once and raise a crop the very next year. Should they forget their predecessors of Ontario, who spent ten, twenty, thirty years of their lives in clearing their land, and who, when their lands were cleared, were, many of them, old rheumatic men. These are the men for whom I have very great respect, and I would ask the Northwest to be reasonable in their demands. The farmers of the North-west demand that the duty be taken off farming implements. They are making great demands upon the government, to which the government never can acccede. Let them be reasonable. The North-west is not a poor country. It does not desire to come here as a beggar, and I would ask the people of the North-west to remember that the bankers in the older provinces have done a good deal to assist them in moving their grain. The merchants in Montreal, Toronto and elsewhere are carrying very heavy loads very often for these farmers of the North-west. Do they not receive every day letters of apology from their western customers instead of remittances in cash. Therefore I would ask our farmers in the North-west to be a little reasonable and to remember the very wise words that have fallen from the Minister of Public Works. If you would ruin the manufacturers of Ontario and Quebec, do you suppose then that the Americans would sell their goods cheap ? My hon. friend from Victoria (Hon. Mr. Ross) looks upon the Americans as great friends because they sell cheap. But how long would they sell goods cheap if they did not meet competition on this side. How long will they sell goods cheap here if they are not meeting competition on this side ? I can assime you that at the present time, as a merchant, I can go into the United States and buy goods cheaper there to be delivered in Canada than the American merchant can buy them for consumption in the United States. That is constantly done. Their overplus is thrust on this country continually. And I only regret that the leader of the government, whom we respect so much has not had more commercial training and knowledge that he might be able to see through these matters. We are not endeavouring to impose on the merchants and farmers of the Northwest: we know that competition in our own country will, at all events, keep prices not only of farm implements but of everything else at low figures. We have never had, in the history of Canada, such cheap goods as we have to-day. This is due to competition, and that competition comes from our own people. Therefore, the farmers Mr. BROCK.
of the North-west have no just cause of complaint, except in so far as the present government have been dilatory in pressing a policy which they have adopted, but which they opposed to the teeth while they were in opposition. If there is one thing that is really disgusting in politics, it is the contemptible position in which politicians will sometimes place themselves. I can understand a man standing up and saying :	I have made a mistake; I was
wrong. But to quietly put on the clothes of his opponent-well, even that I do not mind so much. But to try to make the public believe-you cannot do it however you may try-that they were your own clothes, that is one of the disgusting things of politics. I did not exactly agree with the hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) in his allusion to that friend of the present government, the ' Globe ' newspaper. The ' Globe ' is a great newspaper. The management of the ' Globe ' feels bound to publish in its columns letters that come from any part of the country. A letter appeared in that newspaper not very long ago dealing with the project that the Minister of Public Works seems to have set his heart upon-the French river canal. But that work is only a beginning. If it is to be of any benefit to the farmers of the North-west, that canal must be built through to the city of Montreal. This writer-and he speaks with some authority- calculates that the total cost of that work will be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $300,000,000. The Minister of Public Works calls for the fool who is going to put his money into it. I do not believe he will find him. But you have to find a person who is not very wise to find one who will spend $5,000,000 on a little patch of canal that will begin nowhere and leads to nowhere. It would be better for the country if the government could see its way to securing an increase in the number of tracks in our railway system. This is an all-the-year-round country. We cannot bring our grain that is grown in the Northwest. if we work only in the summer time. We must hold out inducements to the railway companies and great transportation companies to move the grain all the year round-and it will take the whole year to move it. In the interest not only of the farmers of the North-west, but of the great financial institutions that are putting their money into moving the grain crop, it must be kept moving continually, and not only for the few months of canal navigation. I would therefore ask the government, before they commit themselves to this expenditure of $5,000,000-which may be regarded as a small thing but, like other small expenditures may be the entering wedge to another of the unfortunate investments which this country has already made in the shape of canals-to consider this whole question very carefully. Hon. members from the North-

west seem to wish to gather in a great deal of prosperity at once. They want to make the North-west an enormously wealthy country in a few years. But the only solid prosperity that has ever been known in commerce is that kind that is slowly and steadily built up. Let us not be in too great a hurry. Let us take time and consider what the results of our present investments are going to be. During last session, I urged very strongly that the Minister of Railways and Canals and the Minister of Public Works should come down to this House with some comprehensive scheme of transportation. I did not ask the Minister of Public Works to devise a canal costing $5,000,000 to be built at public expense, and to be used, probably, by a private corporation, but a general, comprehensive scheme, which would take in the whole North-west, and I hoped, carry the grain through by our great waterway, the St. Lawrence. But, so far, we have had only shreds and patches, not a comprehensive scheme. I would strongly urge the government and the country not to spend $5,000,000, unless the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Railways and Canals, in fact, the whole government, come to us with a comprehensive and reasonable scheme. The Minister of Public Works has made us one of his usual magnificent protection speeches. Here is one of the things we have seen too often in this House and this country, and which, I say, are the disgusting things' in politics. I do not doubt that the hon. gentleman is thoroughly and sincerely honest in his expression-I do not say that he says one thing and means another. But he is a member of a government many of whose members are absolutely opposed to his idea. The hon. gentleman himself has stated to what extent they differ. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I might say a word to the hon. members from the North-west who have so ably put their cases to this House I would ask them to apply their great business ability and their capacity for handling important questions, to do what the Minister of Public Works urged upon them-take a broad view of this question, try to take in all Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Let us not regard this question only from the point of view of the wheat grown in the Northwest. important as that is, but let us remember that we are endeavouring to make a nation on this northern half of the continent. Let us not accept unquestioningly the views of respectable old gentlemen who have inherited their views from their free trade forefathers. We cannot make a great country in that way. These gentlemen and their ideas pass away, but the North-west remains. If we are to develop that country and make it a means of bringing greatness to Canada, we must take a broader view of these questions, it appears to me, than that which was indicated by the expression we have heard from these hon. gentlemen this evening. Let us not consider only the gentlemen from down by the Atlantic Ocean, and their threats against the present government that in the event of their not accepting the idea of these gentlemen they will withdraw their support. There are greater things in this country than governments. If this country is ever going to be great it must be because you gentlemen from the North-west, representing a great country, which is increasing enormously in population and in wealth, take broad and patriotic views of the questions that come before you. We have discussions in this House brought up by individual members who, though living in this country, and under its protection, we know are not patriotic, and who desire that the great British Empire should be disrupted. But remembering that their influence is infinitesimal, that they are few in numbers, that they are contemptible, I would ask the members of the North-west that they would join the representatives of Ontario and Quebec and the maritime provinces and try to make this country by being united and by thinking of the" welfare of all and not by being small and selfish. If the bulk of the manufacturing happens to be done in Ontario at the present time, let these hon. gentlemen look forward to the time when it will be done in the North-west and British Columbia. Join with us, and you will find that from this side of the House we will loyally and patriotically assist you in any policy that is in the best interest of Canada, rather than of any particular section of it.


Mr. FRANK OLIVER (Alberta).: It would be uncourteous on the part of the members from the North-west, opportunity being given them, if they did not respond and acknowledge the very kind advice that has been tendered to them as to the attitude they should assume on public questions. I am glad to hear the hon. member who has just sat down (Mr. Brock) and so many other hon. members, lecture those of us who come from the North-west on the principles of patriotism. Since when did we of the North-west require to be lectured on the principles of patriotism, of Canadian nationalism ? Our presence in the North-west is evidence of our nationalism ? Otherwise we would be along with the million and more oef our countrymen who are residents in the United States to-day. Those of us who are in the North-west are there because we are patriotic Canadians, because we are nationalists in the large and complete sense of the term, rather than for any other reason. We do not have to be taught nationalism at the hands of anyone, no matter how highly respected he may be in this House or elsewhere. Particularly let me say that we do not require to be lectured on the duty of holding a broad national

view of national questions, when we are dealing with a subject that involves a matter of between $25,000,000 and $50,000,000 of the wealth of this country, produced in one year, we do not need to be lectured by men who to-day are badgering the government for an increase in the duties on woollen goods, a matter that interests a section of the people, a section of the country, something that requires attention possibly, but I ask you, Mr. Speaker, does it bear any proportion, any comparison, to the interest involved in the matter that has been engaging the attention of the House to-night V
We have been discussing a question involving the prosperity, the growth, the welfare of the North-west, and thereby involving the growth, the prosperity and the welfare of the Dominion of Canada. For, I ask you, where else have you an increase of wealth ? Where else have you an increase of prosperity, as shown by the census returns, but in that great west ? Would not Canada be retrograding in population but for the great North-west ? Where does that increase come from of which Canada boasts within the last few years, except from the country west of Lake Superior ? I take the liberty of saying that this Canada of ours would be but a poor Canada, would offer but a poor inducement for a man to proclaim himself a Canadian, were it not for the country west of Lake Superior.


William Rees Brock: That is hard on your political friends who refused to build the Canadian Pacific Railway.


Frank Oliver: That is all right. There are to-day over a million people of Canadian birth in the United States, enough to have populated that North-west with loyal Canadians, enough to have furnished a market for your woollen manufacturers and your implement manufactures, and every other manufacture that you have in this country, to have helped pay your taxes, to have helped build up this country, as we hope yet to see it built up. But they are in the States because they did not have faith in this country, because you had not faith in that North-west country. And the proof that you had not faith is the fact that tonight you stand up here in the House ; one after another, and express surprise, you are astonished, you marvel at the progress that has taken place, progress that, had this country been true to itself, had the leaders of public thought in Canada been true to Canada, would have occurred fifteen or twenty years ago instead of occurring only now. You are surprised. That is proof that you did not know what was coming, that you did not believe in the future of that country. You put that forward as an apology for a condition of affairs that exists to-day. You say that no one could tell. Well, if no one could tell, everybody should have been able to tell that, with such oppor-Mr. OLIVER.
tunities and with an energetic people, such a result must come.
I was astonished to hear the hon. member compare the conditions of pioneer life in this country with the conditions in the North-west. The conditions in this country were those of hardship, they were conditions of struggle, but of triumphant struggle, and the result has been creditable to those who took part in that struggle, and will redound to the credit of their children and their children's children for untold generations. But if any man thinks that settlement in the North-west has not been a tragedy, a tragedy repeated year after year, in settlement after settlement, then I say he is badly mistaken. The people who went to the North-west went there with higher hopes, with greater expectations, than the people who settled in this country, and they suffered in many cases greater disappointments. Do not think, because to-day we can boast of a yield of 100,000,000 bushels of grain in the North-west, of having contributed to the wealth of this country between $25,000,000 and $50,000,000, that it has all come about by chance, that it is an accident. Sir, it has come' about by hard struggle, by privation, by energetic exertion, by the exhibition of all those qualities that make men strong and a country great.
But I did not get up on this occasion to talk generalities. I did not get up to talk tariff, transportation, or nationalism, or the advancement of special interests. I got up to talk on this fact, that to-day a large part of the products of the North-west, of the wealth of the North-west of last year's production, is lying useless, is today lying unused ; and if to-day my hon. friend is receiving apologies from the Northwest instead of remittances, it is largely because of the condition of affairs that we are complaining of. That condition we seek to have remedied to-day-not tomorrow or next day, or next year, or year after next, but to-day, in this House, and now. That is what is wanted. Certain facts have been brought out in this discussion. One is that there is a wheat blockade, another, that there is a grain combine, another that the people of the North-w'est have suffered certain serious financial loss already because of that blockade, and because of that combine, and that the loss is not yet ended, that in fact is only begun. What is the loss ? It has been said here to-day that wheat is being sold throughout the North-west at about 10 cents a bushel under its value. Now, if that statement is correct, and those who make it speak with authority, on a saleable product of 50,000,000 bushels of wheat, at an average price of 50 cents a bushel, a 20 per cent loss would mean $5,000,000. That means $5,000,000 of a loss on one season's operations of 400,000 people as a result of existing conditions ; and that is not by any means the total loss. There

is also the loss caused by the fact that about one-half, or one-quarter of the grain is still in the farmers' hands, is still where it cannot be turned over to pay those bills that my hon. friend speaks about, to go into the general circulation of trade in the country. The people of the west are losing it, and the people of the east are losing it, as well. There is still a further loss, the loss of a large part of the grain by actual damage from weather, as it cannot be got forward for shelter and transport. There is still another loss in consequence of the fact that people will have to be hauling grain in the spring when they should be putting in next season's crop.
This, I submit, is a serious condition of affairs. It is a serious condition for you of the east as well as for us of the west, because, if the money does not come from that crop you cannot handle the money; and let me tell you that every dollar that comes from that crop you do handle in one shape or another. That is the difference between the meaning to this eastern country of the crop of the Northwest and the yield of gold from the Yukon. Suppose the yield is equal in both cases, $25,000,000 worth of crop in the west and $25,000,000 worth of gold yielded by the Yukon; of the gold from the Yukon possibly not one-quarter of it enters the ordinary trade channels of this country, while, of the $25,000,000 worth of the produce from year to year of the crop of the Northwest, every dollar enters the trade of this country and is turned over and over and over again. So that, when it has been pointed out in this House, ns it has been, that this loss is occurring this year on the crop to the people of the North-west Territories we point out to you that the loss is occurring to the trade of this eastern country as well as to the western country, and it is not in any spirit of sectionalism but in a spirit of the broadest nationalism that we call upon the House and the government for assistance in this matter.
In regard to the Canadian Pacific Railway and the wheat blockade; I am prepared to admit, as I think we are all prepared to admit, that as soou as the threshing began so soon the Canadian Pacific Railway put forward every effort to send the wheat to market, and that state of affairs continued until some little time after the close of navigation. We have no complaint at all up to that time beyond a complaint that possibly a little more foresight might have been shown by the company. There was no lack of effort on their part, but we do complain that as soon as the lake elevators were full there began an absolute deadlock; and that since that time they have practically not rolled a wheel to carry grain to market. For over two months the grain blockade has existed and there has been no effort to break it on the part of the railway company. While that condition of
affairs has existed, and which is the cause of all this loss that is occurring, the company has come to the government and secured authorization for the issue of $20,000,000 more stock. They have raised the price of their land in the North-west Territories by a dollar an acre; by one sweep of the pen they have added $10,000,000 to their capital and added $20,000,000 to their stock. I take the liberty of saying that when they did one or the other of these things-they were allowed to do one, the other they could not be prevented from doing-was the time that means should have been taken to compel them to roll their wheels and break the blockade. It may be said that it was impossible for them to do so. We have information here to-day, that to-day they are doing so. They are doing to-day what they should have done two months ago. We do not know to what extent they are doing it; perhaps it is only in a half-hearted way, but the fact that they are doing it to-day is proof that they could have done it and should have done it two months ago. The fact is this; they said :	' Our elevators are full, the
grain is there, it is our meat any way, we will haul it when we get ready and the country can take care of itself.' That is the position, and you say : Why not ? The company is an independent corporation and it is not under government control. But a railway company, from the nature of things, is necessarily a monopoly, and being a monopoly, is necessarily brought under government control ; and there are, and there must be means taken, to provide that it shall not be in the power of any railway company or any corporation whatever its name may be, to simply sit back and say :	' There is a blockade in trade,
in grain, in everything and it can just stay until we get good and ready to lift it.' That is the condition that the North-west Territories have been in for the past two months. It is an intolerable condition, it is a condition that if there is nothing on the statute-books, if there is no precedent for administrative action in regard to it, then, a condition has arisen that requires a precedent to be created, or requires a statute to be put on the books, that will meet that strange condition, that condition which requires something to be done, so that the people of the country shall not simply be thrown backwards for such a large proportion of their earnings during the past year.
It was said by the hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) that the means of breaking the blockade is by sending the grain by Duluth, but Duluth is not a Canadian city and therefore it is not desirable to break the blockade in that way. I quite agree that it is not desirable to break it in that way if anything better cau be done. We would all wish it to be done, in another way, but if nothing better can be done, then we want the blockade broken

any way. But, let me say that if it is a business proposition for the farmers of Indian Head, Wolseley and the farmers all over Manitoba and the North-west Territories to build small warehouses to store their own grain in, to hold that grain until spring, it is just as good for the Canadian Pacific Railway to build flat warehouses at Fort William of a sufficient capacity to contain the grain and keep their wheels rolling during January and February filling these warehouses so that the grain shall be shipped through a Canadian port.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Would the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) allow me to ask him if the Canadian Pacific Railway has any elevators at Duluth ? Is my friend aware that the Canadian Pacific Railway was in a position to make arrangements at Duluth ?


Frank Oliver: I could not say.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: That is the point.


Frank Oliver: I cannot say whether the Canadian Pacific Railway was in a position to make arrangements to get elevator capacity at Duluth on the 1st of January, but it has been given here on authority that the Canadian Pacific Railway is in a position now to make arrangements for elevator capacity at Duluth and it is making arrangements.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Very well, that is the point.


Frank Oliver: They have made the arrangement quite recently. Now, navigation was closed in Duluth on the 1st of January, just as it was closed at Fort William on the 1st of January. Therefore, it is not reasonable to suppose that they were less able to make arrangements for that elevator capacity on the 1st of January than ou the 1st of March. There was no means of relieving any elevating storage there might be in Duluth in the meantime. If the capacity was there on the 1st of March it was there on the 1st of January, and the arrangement was not made simply because it was not wanted to be made. It was quite practicable for the company to have put up flat warehouses at Fort William of sufficient capacity to hold all the grain there is in the North-west, if they had seen fit to do so. It may be said, that would not be a good business proposition, but in passing through Winnipeg I saw that the Northern Elevator Company had a large flat warehouse alongside of their elevator at the station to hold one-quarter of a million bushels. If it paid the Northern Elevator Company to do that at Winnipeg which is not a terminal point, why would it not pay the Canadian Pacific Railway to do it just as well at Fort William, which is a terminal point ? I say that to my mind it is simply a case of dog in the manger. They did not have to and therefore they did not; and they were


Frank Oliver: so shortsighted that they did not see that the country at large and themselves, as well as the North-west farmers would suffer. As long as it was only the farmer who was going to lose-why he could lose. But when it came to their attention that a good many other people were going to lose as well, then the situation was changed and the outlet was secured by way of Duluth.
In regard to the combine and the Grain Bill, let me say this: It has already been said, and I back up what was said, that in order to break the combine it is absolutely necessary to have absolute freedom in the delivery of grain, either to flat warehouses oi' directly to the railway cars.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


Frank Oliver: There is no other way whereby the combine can be broken. A combine exists. That combine is skinning the farmers of the North-west to-day to the extent of from three cents to ten cents a bushel on their wheat. I ask you, is that a condition to be submitted to by this parliament and by this country ? Is it a sectional matter ? Is it something that we beg for from this House and from this couutry ? Is it a thing that is costing somebody else something ? We are only asking for bare justice and that we be not robbed in our own houses. We are asking for nothing but the most ordinary protection to our ordinary rights. The fact that so many small warehouses have been built in the different towns along the line for the temporary holding of the farmers' grain, is all the evidence that is necessary of the propriety of permitting the erecting of such warehouses at switches on the railway right of way, for the prompt leading of the farmers' grain or any other man's grain who desires to load it there. The question at issue in the Grain Bill when it was up, was whether the companys right of way should be taken from them so to speak, for the purposes of allowing these flat warehouses to be built. I say that the company's right of way was given to them for the purpose of carrying on their business as common carriers, and that when and whenever it is necessary that right of way should be used for the purpose of facilitating the business they are engaged in; for the purpose of enabling the better shipment of products on the railroad; then and then always the right of way is entitled to be used for that purpose. There is no confiscation; there is no trespass in the matter.
We ask then that this government shall take such measures as may be necessary, at the present time, and without delay to secure the breaking of the blockade in the grain business of the Nortli-west. We then ask that the grain combine be broken by Insisting ou the spirit as well as on the letter of the Grain Act, and in compelling the railroad company to permit the erection of flat warehouses on their right of way for direct shipment to the cars, and compelling

them to accept grain from anybody who offers it by any means he may choose to offer it. That is the inherent right of the citizen, that is all we ask. As was said by my hon. friend from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) matters have got into a very serious state when it is possible for a railroad company, specifically to set aside an Act of parliament as they have done once and again this winter, by issuing orders to their employees to refuse cars to anybody but elevator men in certain cases.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I just want to emphasize the point; that in bringing this matter to the attention of the House, we are doing it not as sectionalists, but as nationalists. We are asking neither money nor favour from anybody. We demand our elementary rights as citizens of this country, and as producers to get the best returns the markets allow from the result of our year's labour.


Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: I have not the local knowledge in regard to these matters in the North-west which is possessed by a great many of the gentlemen who have addressed the House to-day on this subject, and for that reason I do not profess to speak with any authority on the question. I would like to say, further, that while gentlemen on both sides of the House from the North-west very often put their demands emphatically, I do not think that we should necessarily conclude from that, that there are not legitimate grievances in the Northwest which should be redressed. In listening to this discussion, I have been impressed by the necessity that some action should be taken by the government of this country with regard to the combine which is said to exist among the men who are engaged in the business of warehousing in the North-west. If the facts are as stated by hon. gentlemen on both sides, I do not think there can be a doubt that it is a situation that urgently demands the action of the government. The sooner we have that action the better. For my part, I hope that action will be taken far more promptly than has been the case in regard to similar matters in the Northwest, the delay in reference to which it seems to me has raised a legitimate case for complaint against the government. I might mention by7 way of illustration, that we have not heard a single word during this session with regard to the question of the taxation of the lands owned by the Canadian Pacific Railway in the North-west. A year ago we were told that that matter would be referred to the courts promptly and would be dealt with. I made a suggestion to the government at that time which seemed to me reasonable, and which I had hoped the government might have seen its way to act upon, namely, that the government should inquire promptly and at once as to what the cost would be to this country of removing these lands from the exemption from taxation to which they are said to be subject. I suggested that the government should investigate the question of what it would cost this country if parliament should at once promptly declare that these lands are not exempt from taxation, in case it should afterwards turn out that under the charter of the Canadian Pacific Railway they are not subject to taxation.
I ventured to suggest to the House last session that I thought it would be a statesmanlike proceeding on the part of this government, in view of the great interest which the whole of the country has in the North-west, to remove that exemption from taxation, to let the whole country bear the cost, and to indemnify the Canadian Pacific Railway Company for any interference with their vested rights which would be occasioned by taking that proceeding. Although I made that suggestion to the government last year, and promised to give any measure in that direction which they might bring down my most favourable consideration, we have not heard this session that any progress whatever has been made towards having that vexed question settled by the courts, or that any action has been taken on the line of the suggestion I made a year ago.
Coming back to the immediate question before the House, I venture to think, as I have said before, that the existence of this alleged combine is a matter which should at once, during the present session, engage the attention of the government. It should not be left, as the matter of taxation has been left, from year to year, to be brought up by members from the North-west each session, and to have these gentlemen answered with some vague promise by the government that the matter would engage their consideration during the recess. If the state of affairs is as these gentlemen allege, it is one that should be dealt with during the present session, and not left over to the recess or to next session.
There is another question which I think might legitimately engage the attention of the government, that is, whether or not, having regard to what these gentlemen state, it would not be advisable for the government to take under their control the system of warehouses in the North-west, deal with them as government warehouses, and put an end to the condition of affairs which, if it be as these gentlemen state, is a disgrace to this country and a great detriment to the development of the Northwest.
My hon. friend the Minister of Public Works, in the remarks he made to the House to-night, went very far afield. He succeeded, for example, in calling tip my hon. friend from Victoria (Hon. Mr. Ross), on the question of protection; and I presume that if the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) had been in his seat to-night, that hon. gentleman would also have been found

protesting against the pronounced protectionist principles enunciated by the hon. Minister of Public Works. We know that the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce has only recently announced that he is for a revenue tariff only, first, last and all the time; and he could not have retained his seat in the House-possibly he would not have retained his seat in the cabinet-if he had heard the hon. Minister of Public Works announcing on behalf of the government the policy he did to-night.
There is just this to be said about the views which my hon. friend enunciated, that when he talks about a national transportation system for jCanada, he announces in a general way a policy which no gentleman in this House would for a moment disagree with. But the difficulty with the propositions of the hon. Minister of Public Works is that they were not definite enough to enable us to judge whether they should receive the support of every man in this House or not. The action of this government in the past has not been such as the hon. gentleman lays down for our guidance to-night. Their action a few years ago with regard to the Grand Trunk Railway did not look in the direction of a Canadian port.
The hon. gentleman speaks highly of the port of St. John, and I for one rejoice that the port of St. John has succeeded to a considerable extent in becoming a winter port of Canada. I was glad to see, in passing through that city in the mouth of November last, that it was doing a splendid business in the freight coming over the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I hope that business will increase from year to year; but I do not know of any action of this government which has contributed to any great extent to that success. I think it is rather due, in the first place, to the enterprise of the people of St. John themselves in putting their own money into their terminal facilities and thus inducing the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to engage in that business; and, in the second place, to the enterprise of the CaiUtdian Pacific Railway in building elevators there and in making an attempt to establish an export trade from Canada through that port. Instead of the railway policy of this government contributing to that result, it has been the very reverse; and when the Minister of Public Works speaks of ' even Halifax ' in this connection, I venture to think that that port has some expectations with regard to the export trade which need not be thus qualified. It is true, that port was put aside by the Minister of Railway and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair) in dealing with the export trade. It is true, he did not pay much attention to the arguments we presented and the showing we made that by carrying the freight ninety miles further from Moncton to the port of Halifax, it would have the advantage of a splendid Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
harbour and 250 miles of ocean carriage over the port of St. John. It was therefore pointed out that Halifax stood at least on equal terms with St. John in seeking that export trade. But as far as those two cities are concerned, there is not, nor will there ever be in the future, the slightest jealousy. I can say as a Halifax man that we rejoice that St. John is meeting with such splendid success in its enterprise, in establishing itself, to some extent at least, as a winter port for Canada.
It did not seem to me that the hon. Minister of Public Works dealt with the main difficulty in this case when he addressed the House to-night. The difficulty is not so much in regard to the freights over Lake Superior as in moving the grain in the short season of transportation from the harvest fields to the lake ports. There is no use of providing means of transport, on the lakes, unless you provide proper means of transport from the west to Fort William and sufficient elevator accommodation there. When the minister has once accomplished that, and met the difficulties pointed out to-night by the gentlemen from the Northwest, it will follow as a corollary that we should provide a means of transport on the lakes, in order that we should retain the transportation over Canadian lines to Canadian ocean ports; and when the hon. gentleman brings down any reasonable scheme for increasing the means of Canadian transportation-any scheme by means of which the grain grown in the Canadian Northwest shall be assuredly carried over Canadian lines to Canadian ports and shipped thence to Europe-he will have my support and I believe the support of every other man on this side of the House. But we want something definite; and we want some remedy for the immediate grievance so well placed before this House to-night by the members from the North-west who have spoken. I do not mean by that, that I agree with every idea or suggestion which every one of these gentlemen has put forward; but I do realize most clearly that a great grievance exists there, and I feel as fully, I trust, as any of them does, how great an inheritance Canada has in the North-west, and how absolutely important it is to us all that every grievance of this kind which may put back the settlement and the development of that country should be dealt with, not from any party standpoint, but in a broad national spirit, and dealt with promptly, by the government today.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: There is no objection whatever to bringing down the papers called for. The discussion we have just had on what is certainly one of the most important questions that can engage our attention, has revealed a condition of things between Lake Superior and the Rocky Mountains which

is not at all satisfactory. It lias, however, this redeeming feature, that it is due to an excess of prosperity. It is because we have had in the liast year in the North-west Territories a two years crop In one, that our transportation facilities have been found inadequate to move that crop to the markets of the world. This is perhaps not at all to be wondered at. We are glad to believe that of recent years the prosperity of the North-west has exceeded all our expectations. Up to last fall there was only one single track from the prairies to Lake Superior, and the government has not been oblivious of the fact that this single track was not sufficient to meet the development expected and which has taken place. My hon. friends from the North-west are aware that three or four years ago the government did not hesitate to subsidize another line of railway which will tap the prairies and bring the crop of the North-west to Lake Superior. The government did not hesitate to subsidize that railway at a very heavy cost, and the money for which we asked parliament was cheerfully given and has been well applied. Unfortunately however that railway was completed too late in the season to be of any advantage to the settlers of the North-west, but it is to be hoped that it will be available for next year's crop, and then we shall have two rival roads competing to Lake Superior. But even this addition will not be sufficient. There has been this year a car shortage in the Northwest Territories, and should we have as abundant a crop next year as we had this, even with two competing roads, there may be another car shortage:	I would remind
my hon. friends in the North-west that they are not alone the sufferers. There is not a portion of Canada which is not clamouring for more cars, and all the resources of Canada at present are inadequate to move the products of the Canadian people. This is indeed very satisfactory in one way, but it renders the duty of government and parliament all the more imperative to try if possible to grapple with the situation and furnish an adequate relief. My hon. friends on both sides will credit us with having done all we could, with the means at our disposal, during the present year. The Canadian Pacific Railway themselves have not been oblivious of the difficulty and intend to remedy the situation as far as they possibly can. They propose to increase their stock by $20,000,000. They propose to raise their present capital of $65,000,000 to $85,000,000. They applied to the government, and the government cheerfully gave their sanction to the proposal, but at the same time stipulated that a large part of that expenditure should be applied in doubling the track from the prairie section to Lake Superior and in providing for a large increase in their rolling stock. This will be done, and done shortly, during the present year, and when it is done, when the Canadian Pacific Railway have doubled their
track and perhaps more than doubled their rolling stock, and when there is also the competition of the Canadian Northern, something will have been done to materially relieve the present situation. But I am not sure that even then sufficient will have been done, because I believe that the development of the North-west will continue at such a rate that there will still be a shortage of cars for the removal of the crops. The only method that can be devised to remedy the evil is one rather difficult to grapple with. The only way after all is to provide more transportation facilities-not so much to Lake Superior as to Eastern Canada. The idea has been thrown out by hon. members who addressed the House to-day, that it is not sufficient to have the crop moved to the head of Lake Superior there to remain during the winter, and be shipped the following spring, but that some method should be devised to have it moved to the seaboard in winter as well as in summer. To this proposition every one will readily agree. It is the most practical that has been submitted today. If we could possibly have the grain of the North-west removed from the prairie to the seaboard during twelve months, we would do a great deal to relieve the present congestion. But so long as the wheat is only brought down to Lake Superior and there stored until the opening of navigation, there will never be that adequate relief given which must be provided some time or other. If we had a continuous prairie section all the way through from Winnipeg to the seaboard, there would be no difficulty at all, but unfortunately there is a rugged section along the shores of Lake Superior, which hardly admits of wheat being commercially carried through. That is the difficulty. How that is to be overcome is a problem of great magnitude, which I am not prepared to solve at present. No doubt new lines of transportation must be found to bring the wheat down to the seaboard every month in the year. That problem, I am afraid, is not capable of immediate realization, but in the meantime what is to be done ? It has been stated repeatedly that one of the things from which the settlers have suffered most is their unfair treatment by the Canadian Pacific Railway-that there has been a combine which has made it impossible for the Canadian Pacific Railway to ignore the demands of the settlers and leave the wheat where it is to-day. Well, that is a difficulty which ought to be capable of being remedied and which must be dealt with. I am not prepared to say whether that be really the case or not, but if there has been a combine, the result of which has been to prevent the storing of wheat in the elevators along the railway line, this is the first intimation of it which has been officially made to the government.
Nothing has been done yet to acquaint the government of Canada with the condition of things which has been revealed to-day

by the discussion. It is therefore for bon. gentleman who have spoken not merely to call attention to this very important condition of things but to suggest a remedy. The great question of grain transportation and of the inspection of grain in the North-west is one which was frequently under discussion in the last parliament. Two years ago an Act was passed, the Manitoba Grain Act, which, I understand, has done a great deal to remove the grievances that existed. And, perhaps, if old conditions had continued, if the crop instead of being phenomenally large, had been an ordinary crop, that Act would have been sufficient to deal with the situation. But, fortunately, Providence has been kind to us; there has been a phenomenal crop. The remedies provided by the Act have been inadequate to meet the circumstances. That being the case, I would ask lion, members from the North-west to suggest a remedy. The hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) made a speech to-night the tone of which I heartily commend, in which he says that the government should deal with the question. The government is ready to do its share. But the hon. members from the North-west should be ready to admit that, in a matter of this kind, technical knowledge is required, knowledge which they possess, and which we are not supposed to have. At any' rate, whatever may be our knowledge it cannot be as complete or as accurate as theirs is. We have, therefore, a right to expect them to point out what the remedy is-whether new elevators should be built, or whether there should be government ownership of railways, or what course should be taken. I have understood also that some complaint has been made as to the working of the Act. I think it was my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) who made the statement that not only the spirit of the Act but the letter of it had been systematically violated by the company. I should imagine that, if that is the case, we ought to be able to find within the terms of the statute itself, a remedy-that is, there ought to be means provided by the statute to compel the company to conform to the law. If the letter and the spirit of the law have been violated, and if that is the only complaint, the remedy is in the hands of the people, because the law provides means of compelling the railway company to comply with its terms.


Robert Laird Borden: The right hon. gentleman will pardon me, I hope, but I understood that there was a combination among the warehouse men themselves, and that is what I was dealing with.


The PRIME MINISTER.: That may be, but I am dealing with the statement made by my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver). He stated that the letter of the law had been violated, and I am sure that the hon. leader of the opposition will agree with me that if that is the only evil to be complained of, Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
the statute itself will afford a sufficient remedy, and it will only be necessary to compel the company to conform to the terms of the statute. But I imagine that the evil is greater and deeper than a simple violation of the letter of the statute. For, as I understand the case, the provisions of the Act would have been sufficient to cope with the condition of things brought about by the enormous crop we have had in the North-west. But while the yield per acre this year may not be as'great, the total yield will probably be as large, because there will be a far larger acreage under cultivation this year than there was last year. Therefore, we must expect the same evil- or rather the same good, for ' evil ' is not the proper word to apply to abundance-as we had last year. If, therefore, the Act is not adequate, it is only for our friends from the North-west to point out the remedy and the government will be only too glad to give them every possible assistance to make the Act as effective as it can be made.


Frank Oliver: I ask permission to ask a question of the right hon. Premier. I think my friends from the North-west will bear me out iu making the statement that the letter of the law has been violated by the company by issuing orders to their subordinates to refuse to allow the farmers to load their cars. That is a violation of the spirit and the letter of the Act as we understand it. We make that statement on our responsibility as members of parliament ou the floor of this House. We think-perhaps I should say I think-I have discharged my duty by making that statement. I do not think the responsibility rests upon me of taking the part of a detective or officer of the law in such a case.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I have only to say that the morneut particulars of this kind are given, it will be the duty of the government to have the fact investigated, and to apply to the Department of Justice, if the facts are so, to see what remedy can be applied.


Nathaniel Boyd: If I may be permitted, I would like to correct a wrong impression which the House would receive from the remarks of the leader of the government in regard to the Canadian Northern Railway. Speaking of that road the Premier said that it did not help to relieve the grain blockade. Now, there has been no blockade on that road during the season. Any blockade that has taken place has been on the Canadian Pacific Railway. Evidence was produced at the Agriculture Committee at the local legislature to prove that, at all times, the Canadian Northern road, throughout their system, had been able to handle their crop this season.


William Forsythe McCreary: Perhaps I may be allowed to explain that that grain did not go over the trunk line to a Canadian port, but

to an American port. If the Canadian Pacific Railway were to take to shipping to American ports, they could move a great deal of grain, just as the Canadian Northern has done.
Motion (Mr. Douglas) agreed to.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
Tracing showing the principal railway lines in operation in New Brunswick, and showing the railway lines, or portions of such lines, over which postal cars are run.-Hon. Mr. Costigan.
List of the names of all permanent and temporary officials of the several branches of the Department of the Interior, date of appointment and their salaries, on the 1st July, 1896 ; also a similar list on the 1st July, 1901.-Mr. LariviSre.
List of the names of all permanent and temporary officials employed in the Winnipeg Post Office since the 1st of July, 1896 ; date of appointment, length of service, and salary up to the 1st of January, 1892.-Mr. Lariviere.
On motion of the Prime Minister, the House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, March 11, 1902.