1902-02-20

Mr. HENDERSON asked :: What, discriminating duties does Germany now impose upon the following Canadian imports, viz.: Apples, butter, barley, beans, buckwheat, clover seed, oats, pease, rye, wheat and agricultural implements ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S.	Fielding). I think the expression 'discriminating duties ' in the question is apt to be misleading. I do not think it would be correct to state that there are discriminating duties in Germany against Canadian products. Germany has two tariffs; one of a favoured character which is extended to countries having treaties with Germany ; the other applies to the countries with which Germany has no treaties. Canada having no treaty with Germany, her goods are made subject to the higher tariff, but there is no specific discrimination against Canada.


David Henderson: May I be allowed to say that about two years ago-


Mr. SPEAKER.: Order.


David Henderson: Well, I beg to move the adjournment of the House. About two years ago the same question was asked by the Hon. Mr. Foster, then a member of this House, in exactly the same words, and it was answered by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I thought that was a good precedent, and I adopted the same words for that reason, thinking the Minister of Finance would give me an answer as the Minister of Trade and Commerce answered the same question.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I have answered the question of my hon. friend. I say that there is no discrimination against Canada, but Canada having no treaty with Germany, our goods are subject to the higher tariff. I did not refuse to answer the question.


David Henderson: The conditions are the same now as they were at the time the question was asked before, and I simply took that as a precedent, and thought the

question would be answered in the same way. I beg to withdraw the motion.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: There is no motion made, and I would respectfully ask honourable members not to move the adjournment for such purposes, because any question may be brought up on a motion to go into Committee of Supply.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If my hon. friend wants to ascertain the two scales of duties on the specified articles, I will get the information for him.


PRINTING OF BALLOTS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Casgrain-asked :
1.	By whom were the ballots used in the last election of St. James Division, Montreal, printed ?
2.	How many ballots were printed for said election ?
3.	What was the cost of said printing ?
4.	Why were not said ballots printed at the government Printing Bureau ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: To the iirst and fourth questions, the answer is that the ballots were first printed at the Printing Bureau according to the form prescribed by the statute, a copy of which I uow lay upon the Table of the House. The ballots so printed were sent to the returning officer, with the particulars-the names of the candidates, etc.-left to be printed at the local printing office. In this case the particulars were printed at the office of ' La Patrie.' The cost was $19.25. The number of ballots so sent for St. James division was .11,000.
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Casgrain-asked :
1.	By whom were the ballots used in the last Laval election printed ?
2.	How many ballots were printed for said election ?
3.	What was the cost of printing said ballots ?
4.	What is the total number of persons employed at the government Printing Bureau ?
5.	How many have been dismissed since 1st January, 1901 ?


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: The answer is similar to that given to the previous question. The ballots were first printed at the Printing Bureau, and were then sent to the returning officer with the particulars left to be printed at a local printing office. In the case of Laval 6,000 were sent. I think the number of electors there is about 5,000. The local particulars were also printed at the office of * La Patrie.' I have not yet the information as to the cost. The number of employees in the Printing Bureau is 440. None have been dismissed since Jan. 1, 1901, but 26 have been suspended.


TELEGRAPH LINES IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Casgrain-asked :
1.	What is the total amount expended by the government on telegraph lines in British Columbia and the Territories since the 1st September, 1896, up to the present time ?
2.	What proportion of this total amount has been expended under contract and tender ?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS. (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: If the hon. gentleman will be good enough to make a motion, the whole statement will be brought down.


PAYMENT TO NEWSPAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Casgrain-asked :
1.	What is the total amount paid by the government to the Montreal ' Herald ' newspaper since the 15th July, 1896, up to the present date?
2.	What is the total amount paid by the government to the Toronto ' Globe ' during the same period ?
3.	What is the total amount paid by the government to the Halifax ' Chronicle ' during the same period ?
4.	What is the total amount paid by the government to 'Le Soleil' of Quebec during the same period ?
5.	What is the total amount expended by the government in the relief of distressed Canadians abroad during the same period ?
6.	Why is not the entire government printing done at the government Printing Bureau ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: The information relating to questions 1, 2, 3 and 4 is already before the House, and will be found in the Auditor General's reports for the several years, the items being particularly mentioned. In answer to question 5, my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior will be able to give the information, he hopes, to-morrow. To question 6, it is not always possible for the Bureau to do the work required by the government promptly, and therefore a portion of it has to be sent outside.


EMPLOYMENT OF OSCAR BEAUCHAMP.
Mr. LEONARD asked :: 1.	Is Oscar Beauchamp in the employ of the government, and what position does he hold at St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary ?
2.	When was he appointed to such position ?
3.	On what recommendation has he been appointed ?
4.	Is the government aware that Oscar Beauchamp, deputy warden of the St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary, was one of the most active organizers of the last election in Laval, in favour of Charles A. Wilson, one of the candidates ?
5.	Has the government been informed that the same Oscar Beauchamp organized public meetings in favour of one of the candidates in the said election ?
6.	What attitude does the government purpose taking in regard to public employees who take active part in a Federal election ?
7.	Have the employees of the St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary the right and permission to make use oj the government horses and vehicles for the purpose of political organization in a Federal election ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon. Chas. Fitzpatrick) :: 1. Oscar Beauchamp is deputy warden of St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary. He was appointed on the 21st February, 1899, on the

recommendation of the then Minister of Justice. To the fourth and fifth, I say no.
With respect to the 6th and 7th, certain vicious practices had crept into St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary previous to 1896, and we have done our best to suppress them, and I hope we shall he able to do so in the near future.


PHYSICIAN OP ST. VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY.
Mr. LEONARD asked :: 1.	Has the government appointed a successor to the late Dr. Fortier as physician of the St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary ?
2.	If so, who has been appointed ?


The MINISTER OP JUSTICE (Hon. Chas. Fitzpatrick) :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Dr. Adolphe Allaire.
4.	Public tenders were called for. The advertisement inviting tenders was inserted in the following papers published in the province of Quebec :-Montreal-' Herald,' ' La Patrie,' 'Witness,' ' Shareholder ' ; Quebec-' Le Soleil,' ' Telegraph '. Sherbrooke-1 Le Progres.' St. Hyacintlie- 1 L'Union,' 1 La Tribune.' Three Rivers- 1 L'Efioile.' Arthabaskaville - 1 L'Union.' The advertisement was issued by the King's Printer on May 31st, 1901, but the department is not aware of the exact dates on which the advertisement was published in the several newspapers.


REPORT PRESENTED.
[Stage Direction]
Annual Report of the Department of the Interior for the year 1901 ; also Aunual Report of the Department of Indian Affairs for the same year.-Hon. Clifford Sifton.

Mr. LEONARD asked :: 1.	Who is the postmaster of St. JSrome, county of Terrebonne ?
2.	Has the government been informed that Daniel Longpre, postmaster of St. Jerome, during the last election, remained actively working in favour of Charles C. Wilson, one of the candidates, in the county of Laval ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Wm. Mulock).: The answer to the first question is Dr. Daniel Longpi'6. The government has not been informed that Daniel Longpre, postmaster at St. JfirOme, during the last election, remained actively working in favour of Charles C. Wilson, one of the candidates in the county of Laval.


ST VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY COAL SUPPLIES.
Mr. LEONARD asked :: 1.	Who is, or who are, the coal supplier or suppliers to St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary during the year 1901 and 1902 ?
2.	What amount of coal has been purchased for that institution from the 1st of April, 1901, from each of the suppliers ?
3.	What prices have been paid for each kind of coal purchased ?
4.	Were public tenders called for ? If so, in what newspapers and at what dates were they published ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon. Chas. Fitzpatrick) :: 1.	E. Cavanagh & Co., contractors for hard coal; T. F. Moore & Co., for soft coal ; A. Baile, for coal screenings.
2.	No coal was purchased between April 1st and June 30, 1901. The following quantities have since been purchased E. Cavanagh & Co., 1,350 tons ; T. F. Moore & Co., 1,053 tons; A. Baile, 825 tons.
3.	Furnace coal, $5.53 per ton ; egg coal, $5.66 per ton ; stove coal, $5.89 per ton : soft coal, $4.33 per ton ; soft coal screenings, $3.70 per ton.


Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.: 


PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND COMMUNICATION.
Mr.  A. A.@: LEFURGEY (East Prince) moved for :
Copies of all petitions, letters, telegrams or correspondence of any kind during the past year between the Board of Trade of Charlottetown and Summerslde, Prince Edward Island, and the Ministr of Marine and Fisheries, or any member of the government, with reference to the placing of the winter steamer 'Stanley' upon the route between Summerslde, Prince .Edward Island, and Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick. He said ; Last year I brought this matter before the House and took occasion to point out the obligation which the Dominion is under to keep up steam communication at all times of the year between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, and the unsatisfactory manner in which that obligation is performed. I also pointed out that the shortest and safest route both for passengers and freight was between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, and that the steamer ' Stanley,' which was then lying at Georgetown at the disposal of the government, should be put on that route in order to ascertain its practicability. Some of the men most experienced in navigating through the ice in our province were confident that this route was very practicable, but the test was continually postponed on untenable excuses. The piers were not in repair, although the Department of Public Works had ample time to put them in condition, and had promised to do so. At all events the late Minister of Marine and Fisheries did not take any action apparently on account of local prejudices, with which he was shackled and to preserve his eastern support, but now we have a new Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Mr. Sutherland), who is apparently actuated by a desire to have the best route between the island and the mainland put to a proper test. He has had the ' Stanley ' put on this route, and the result has been eminently

satisfactory,-in spite of the obstacles thrown in the way of giving the route a fair and impartial trial.
1 have in my hand a copy of a letter addressed to the hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries by the Summerside board of trade, which I propose to read to the House :
February 13th, 1902.
Hon. James Sutherland,
Minister, Marine and Fisheries,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir :-After patiently watching the operations of the * Stanley ' on the Summer-side-Cape Tormentine route, we are compelled to enter a protest against the manner in which, the intentions of your department are being carried out.
From the first it has been glaringly apparent that the heart of the captain and of the entire crew, has been averse to the success of the test of this winter route.
Without going into a detailed history of the working of the ship from the first, we beg to submit a few of the more recent incidents. It has been claimed that a cordon of ice had formed near the outer edge of the harbour board ice by a strong westerly gale a few days previously, through which Capt. Brown claimed it was almost impossible to put the steamer.
On Tuesday, 4th Inst., some 60 or 70 men accompanied the ship-sent out by the board of trade-with the intention of cutting through the cordon. The 'steamer went out at an exceedingly rapid rate, taking about thirty minutes to get through a cut of about Si miles. The men worked where directed by the officers of the ship, for about three hours, when the steamer was backed up avoiding the cutting made, and went through by another way without assistance and without much difficulty ; she returned the same evening without going to the edge of the board ice.
On Wednesday, 5th, again accompanied by 25 men she went out rapidly to the place she left the previous evening ; she was run into heavy ice and stuck. The first officer directed the men to clear away the ice from the bows, which, from the experience of the day before, the men protested against doing, but a captain of the ice-boat service-who was a passenger

indicated another .route. The latter route was bushed and the steamer went through it into open water without further difficulty, showing conclusively, that the steamer, properly managed, could have been put through this cordon without any outside assistance.
Having got through into open water at one p.m., instead of proceeding on her voyage to Cape Tormentine, which she could have done quite easily, and where she could have reached without difficulty, she proceeded to within two miles of Carleton Head, island side, with a clear lead of water four miles ahead and two miles wide, turned and came back to. Summerside, arriving at four o'clock, p.m. It will be observed that the steamer was more than half way to her destination, returning thence to Summerside in less than two hours when she could have reached her destination in much less time.
On Thursday, 6th, she left Summerside at 7 a.m., and instead of going through her cut as rapidly as she did on the two previous days, when the men who were sent out to assist, were on board and as she did on the previous evening when returning, she took three hours in 6
making the distance to the board ice. No condition of weather obtained to account for this difference; and had she gone this morning as she did on previous days,-and as we are satisfied she could have done-she could have reached Cape Tormentine quite easily and returned that day. Instead, she only succeeded in going about half the distance when it commenced to snow, when she returned to the board ice where she remained until the following morning.
Instead of getting away next (Friday) morning at 7 o'clock as she should have dqne, and made the trip while the weather was clear, she delayed till 9 o'clock a.m., before leaving, with the result that she again met thick weather and did not cross till the next day, Saturday, when she reached Tormentine at about mid-day. She lay at Tormentine till Monday morning, 10th, when she returned to Summerside ; since when and up to this writing, even worse manipulation has been going on. For instance, on Wednesday, 12th, she left here at 7 a.m., arriving at Tormentine at 11.15 a.m., with only two cars of freight to discharge,-one to take in. And notwithstanding the most favourable conditions, she lay there all night.
On Tuesday, 11th,-the finest day of the winter-she lay at the wharf at Summerside making no attempt to effect a crossing. And so it has been from first to last, with other instances even more glaring than those related. In addition to this we have to say, that the captain's language in the presence and hearing of passengers has been such as to call forth indignant protests on their part.
It is just possible that these difficulties have arisen through the captain's age and consequent timidity, which last characteristic appears to be most pronounced. We have also, good cause to believe that the agent of the department at Charlottetown is aiding and abetting, if not directing, the captain in the adverse manipulations of this ship. In a word, the whole course 'of this test has been, and is known to have been, a farce, which we respectfully ask the department to investigate and amend.
To avoid a repetition of the difficulties complained of, we would suggest, that with the captain-or with another captain, if the department sees fit to displace the present officer,-an experienced ice-boat captain be employed by thei department to act as an ice pilot.
We have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servants,


D. H. CURRIE,
[Stage Direction]
On behalf of Council, Summerside Board of Trade.
This document contains specific charges against the officials of this boat, and. implicates also the agent of the Department of Marine and Fisheries at Charlottetown. It is a direct impeachment of the captain-one that calls for an immediate investigation. If the captain of the 'Stanley' is too old or too timid, he should be discharged and a younger and more capable man put in his place. There are certainly other men competent to take charge of the boat. If, on the other hand, he is acting under the advice of the agent in Charlottetown, who appears to be of too vacillating a nature and incompetent to direct the operations, the sooner that oflicial is removed the better. All we ask is that the test, which the people of Prince Edward Island have been for years
[Stage Direction]


calling for, should be given every assistance by the department. So far it has proved successful, and should not be further hampered by any incapacity on the part ot the officers or agent of the department.
There is another cause also which operates against the complete success of this route. Although the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has been apparently doing everything possible on his part and is evidently not cognizant of the actions of the officers of his department or of the ' Stanley,' he evidently has not the cooperation of the Post Office Department. We find that when this boat was put on the route and was making daily trips, carrying passengers and mails, private individuals, on two different occasions, had to hire special trains to carry passengers and mails from Summerside to Charlottetown. This is a condition of affairs which should not be allowed to exist in this twentieth century. Every facility should be given for the transmission of passengers and mails, and such neglect on the part of the government should meet with prompt condemnation. We were promised a dredge at Tormentine last year to facilitate the landing of freight from the ' Stanley.' And, notwithstanding the promise which was, as I believe, made by the department, the dredge was taken down and was kept at work practically doing nothing all summer, in the locality of Murray Harbour. All I wish to say further is that, the superiority of this route being established, it seems too bad that the intention of one department should miscarry by the non-co-operation of other departments. I would respectfully ask the Minister of Public Works to do all in his power to put the pier at Cape Tormentine in proper condition before next season. I would also ask the Postmaster General to see to it that we have train communication along with the boat. Since the mail has been transferred, as it has been during the past week, when the Str. 'Minto' was fast in the ice, I notice we are getting our mails more regularly and the steamer is making more regular trips, showing that, when the department takes hold of the matter, owing to the necessity of transporting the mail, the officers are ready and willing to perform their duty. I conclude my remarks by asking the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries to investigate this matter at the earliest possible moment and have it put to rights.
Mr. EDWARD HAC1CETT (West Prince, P.E.I.) I desire to make only an observation or two in support of what has been said by my hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey). This question has been brought to the attention of this hon. House many times in the past. And it will be brought to the attention of the House many times again, I can assure you. Mr. Speaker, so long as justice is not done to the people of Prince Edward Island.
Mr. LEFURGEY.: Last year, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries of that time was absent in Prince Edward Island when the discussion of this subject came up. The two boats, the ' Minto ' and the ' Stanley,' were blocked in the ice between Georgetown and Pictou, and the hon. gentleman, after coming here from Prince Edward Island, was obliged to admit that he had been imprisoned for twelve days in Prince Edward Island because the government steamers could not keep up communication with the mainland. In calling attention to these matters, we are not speaking solely in the interests of the people of Prince Edward Island, but in the interests of the people of Canada. For, the people of every province have large dealings with the people of Prince Edward Island, and immense quantities of manufactured goods and other merchandise from all parts of Canada are being sold in the island province. It is very necessary in the interests of all who engaged in or benefited by that trade that communication should be maintained in the winter as well as in the summer, as was guaranteed to the people of Prince Edward Island at Confederation. Sir, after this matter had been brought up last year, and after it had been admitted that communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland had not been maintained, what did the government do ? So clear was it that the terms of Confederation had not been fulfilled and that communication had not been maintained, that the government actually gave compensation to the extent of $30,000 a year to the people of Prince Edward Island for non-fulfilment of these terms. I believe that if both these boats had been kept on between Georgetown and Pictou, instead of having one running between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, communication would not be kept up constantly with the island. But if the advantages of the western route are recognized, and if these boats are efficiently managed, there need never be any occasion for further demand for compensation. The steamer was brought there at the urgent request of the people of Prince county. And I wish to say that I do not blame the hon. minister, for I believe that he has done his very best in this connection. He saw that there were two boats and that, in justice to the people of the western pait of the province, one should, be brought there to keep up communication. We have no fault to find with the hon. minister in this regard, but we do find fault with the captain of the boat and his officials. We were told last year that the ' Stanley' could not ply to Cape i'ornieutine, because there were not proper terminal facilities for handling the freight. Last year the government-I do not know which department-constructed there a good warehouse. I was surprised, when I last crossed from Summerside to Cape Tornien-tine, to find that that warehouse was packed with goods from every province intended for consignees in Prince Edward Island. But,

owing to tlie incompetence and neglect, and want of energy, of tlie captain of the boat, these goods remained in the warehouse for days before they could be transported to Prince Edward Island. I took occasion to travel by that boat. I am a strong advocate, as strong as my abilities will permit, of testing the western route. On Thursday, the Gth of February, I sought to cross from Prince Edward Island by that boat on my way to the Capital. We had a fine morning. The people of Summerside had turned out en masse the day before to cut through the cordon or ice bridge that had formed at the mouth of the harbour. We went that Thursday morning from the wharf to the outer edge of the cordon in about two or three hours. The captain made an attempt to push on to Cape Tormentine to land his passengers. He went about a mile or so outside the harbour into the straits of Northumberland, where there was nothing but floating ice alternating with great stretches of open water. Yet, the captain turned around, and in the evening we were at the mouth of Summerside harbour, after losing twenty-four hours of precious time. But I would like to remark that, whereas the usual'time of leaving Summerside wharf is seven o'clock in the morning, on this second day, though the weather was fine and everything favourable for a start, the captain did not leave his berth until nine o'clock. On Friday we started again and made progress through the ice until within a few miles of Tormentine wharf when a snow storm came on and the captain returned again to Summerside harbour. If he had left in the morning at seven o'clock he would have landed the passengers at Cape Tormentine as he was required to do by his instructions; but after being in the Straits all of Friday, on the next Saturday afternoon he landed us at Cape Tormentine. I can assure the minister that this letter of the Summerside Board of Trade conveys to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries the sentiment of the people of that section of the country, and of the people of Prince Edward Island generally. I can assure him also that this is not a party question. The Hon. R. C. McEeod, President of the Summerside Board of Trade, is one of the members of the Liberal government in the province of Prince Edward Island. The gentleman who wrote this communication, Mr. D. K. Currie of Summerside, is the editor of the 'Pioneer,' the government organ in that town. It is therefore not a party matter. It is simply a case of the people of the western end of the province standing up for their rights without any bias of party feeling. We are asserting our rights, we are asking what is only a matter of justice. As I said before, so far as the minister is concerned, there is not a word of complaint, but iu connection with the captain and the officers of that boat there is great cause for complaint.
6J
I don't want to say here that the captain, using his judgment, was not perhaps correct, but I say that what has occurred, according to this memorandum of the Board of Trade to the minister, requires to be investigated. Let him ascertain whether it was owing to any want of energy, any want of push, or old age, or whether it was owing to any political influences surrounding him in the east end of the island. It is said that many people living at Charlottetown and at Georgetown are opposed to this western route. If it was any of these influences that I have mentioned which delayed the boat which was sent there for the purpose of making a thorough test of the navigation of that route, I say the matter should be investigated, and the men who were guilty of culpable neglect or worse, should be dismissed from the government service.
This may be the last for some years that you will hear of this matter, because I trust that the minister will act, having now proper facilities at Cape Tormentine. I am sorry to say that when it became known that the dredge ' Prince Edward,' used for dredging the harbours of Prince Edward Island and the neighbouring coast of New Brunswick, had been ordered to Cape "Tormentine in connection with the opening up of the route there in order that the steamer ' Stanley ' might lay alongside of the pier, then there was some political action by people living east about Murray harbour, people having political issues at stake, which took that dredge away from where she had been ordered by the department, for the purpose of advancing certain political interests in another direction. I say it was a mistake, more than that, it was wrong to take that dredge away because a few individuals in the eastern end of the province required her services in order to advance their political interests. All we want in the western part of Prince Edward Island is justice and fair play. That is all we require of this government. We may fight them hard, and we do fight them hard, and they fight us hard, but we do not want them to use the public money of this country for the purpose of advancing the political interests of the local government at the expense of the people of any section of this country.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: I am sorry indeed that tlie lion, gentleman has yielded to the temptation once more of speaking of things that he does not seem to know much about. There is, as we all know, a place called Cape Tormentine, he should know all about it, and still he speaks of it as if he did not know anything about it. When we took office, there was a wharf there, a pier that had been built with material that the worms had eaten up almost entirely. The work could not hold together, as my hon. friend should know. We had to repair that work

at great cost. We could not repair it as fast as my hon. friend would liave liked, perhaps, or would have done If he had had half a million'dollars at his disposal. The work was badly built, we could not rebuild It, and we have been repairing it. It is not our fault that the condition of affairs exists there of which the hon. gentleman complains, it is the fault of those who built the pier, and my hon. friend should know it. He does know it, but of course he has exaggerated the evil and has made a false impression on the House. The work was badly built, and we could not rebuild it in a day or two. Nor can it be said that the dredge should have been sent there some time ago. Sir, there is in this country a very important island called Prince Edward; a dredge was set apart for the benefit of Prince Edward Island. There is also a place on Prince Edward Island called Summerside. When we took office there were no harbour works there. I have given a contract for the erection of harbour works, and my hon. friend, instead of giving credit to me, sacrifices me to the best of his ability, and tries to create a bad impression on the House against my department. In two words, the works at Cape Tormeutine built by the former government were no good, they had been destroyed when we took office, and on this side of the island there were no works at all. We are now erecting these works, and the hon. gentleman is not pleased. Well, I cannot at the present time do anything more for him, except to invite him to exercise a little more moderation when he speaks of things for which his political friends in the past are to blame.


The MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. James Sutherland).: There can be no objection to bringing down the papers moved for by my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Lefurgey). I must, however, express some regret at the feeling that has been exhibited by the members for the county in discussing the efforts of the captain, under the direction of the department, in endeavouring to find out whether it is practicable to have winter navigation between the points named. Remembering the discussions that have taken place in parliament in years past, and the manner in which this matter has been often pressed upon the attention, not only of the present government but of former governments, on representations made by the Board of Trade of Summerside, and having at our disposal the government boat ' Stanley ' I thought it was better to make an earnest, businesslike and honest effort to see whether there was a practicable winter route betwen Summerside and Cape Tor-mentine. I took counsel with the committee of the board of trade, and I must say that I have discussed with them almost everything in connection with this matter, and accepted their suggestions in almost Hon. Mr. TARTE.
every respect. After deciding to go on with the trial, and giving instructions as to how it was to be carried on, the board of trade expressed their approval of everything that was done. I must admit that probably as the head of the department I went further than is usual in cases of this kind, because I recognized, and recognize now, that we were risking property, and perhaps the lives of the officers on the boat, and of the passengers that might be on that boat, by forcing the captain to take more risks than in his judgment he thought he should. However, as I said at the request of the members of the board of trade, and hearing what they had to say, and remembering the criticisms of the past, I have pressed upon the agent in the island, Mr. Lord, I think his name is, and the captain of this boat the great necessity of trying to remove any cause of criticism and fault finding with regard to the effort that was made.
My hon. friend, although representing that district, cannot help but know that there is something to be said on both sides and that while he may earnestly think that this route may be successfully navigated I may say that I only hope with* him that it may be found to be so. There have been found in the past, and I am afraid in the present trial, great difficulties to conteud with. In view of the criticisms that have been made of the representative of the department on the island and of the captain of the boat-I may say that the council of the board of trade, in the hon. gentleman's constituency spoke of the captain, who has been in charge, in the highest possible terms characterizing him as a man capable of undertaking the work and one in whose integrity they have every confidence. *At their suggestion I took a pilot living, I think, in Summerside ; at least a man who had been on that route for a great many years for a commercial company, so that it would give the greatest possible satisfaction to the people of the district to know that they had a man in charge in whom they had implict confidence and who was also familiar with every foot of the district, both land and water. Further than that I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I think my hon. friend is somewhat mistaken in regard to the feeling of the people of the eastern portion of the island, or of Charlottetown. When the matter was under discussion I received a resolution from the Board of Trade of Charlottetown, a competing port, I suppose, requesting that an effort should be made to find out whether winter navigation could be maintained or not; so that, officially, I have no reason to believe but that the people of that city and of that section of the island were in full sympathy with every effort which was being made. I am told that in the past certain little jealousies had existed, political and otherwise, but so far as I am concerned I can assure my hon. friend who

Has spoken I have not the slightest intimation from any representative or individual, but what was favourable to going on with this work and making every possible effort to carry it out successfully. X think I may say to the House that I went just as far as it was possible for a minister taking the responsibility in giving instructions to the captain and officers of the boat to make every effort to carry out this work. I may briefly refer to the instructions given to the officers in charge. The agent was instructed to :-
Direct the captain to proceed to Summerside to be in readiness for beginning trips between Summerside and Gape Tormentine when the Steamer ' Northumberland ' is withdrawn.
If I understand it the steamer ' Northumberland ' is a boat belonging to a commercial line which does the work in the summer time and as soon as it is found to be dangerous on account of ice the government steamer would be ready to be put on this route.
It is the purpose of the department to keep up communication as far as possible by giving this new route a fair trial and every possible effort should be made by you consistent with the safety of the ship and mails, and the lives of the crew and passengers to keep the steamer running. The department will rely upon your discretion and judgment to make the experiment as successful as possible and also to determine whether the winter route between Summerside and Cape Tormentine is practicable.
I may say to the members from that locality and to the members of the board of trade who represented the citizens of the district and on whose representations I authorized this trial to be made, for fear that something might arise such as the hon. gentleman lias referred to here to-day and because there would be differences of opinion, that I went to the length that in case of any difficulties being met with, before taking any action to stop the effort that was being'made, the captain was instructed to consult with the hon. Mr. Yeo, the hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson) and the members of the council and the board of trade. It reads here : ' The members of the Board of Trade of Summerside '. I thought it was the council only that I had in mind. If so, this instruction has gone farther than I intended ; therefore, he was to consult with the members of the board of trade before ceasing the effort that he was directed to make. He was also given full authority to wire the department under any circumstances. In conclusion I may say that so far as I am concerned and so far as the officers of the department were concerned, there was nothing suggested to be done by the representatives of the district but what was done and as evidence of that I have had letters, and I have a resolution passed by the people of the district, expressing great satisfaction that the action was taken and that the details of it were being carried out. Although I cannot agree with the criticisms that are being made of the captain to show that at least I am still honest and desirous of making every effort to have this work carried out I may state that yesterday I sent this telegram on the receipt of the letter to which the hon. gentleman referred.
Ottawa, 19th February, 1902. Hon. R. C. McLeod,
Summerside, P. E. I.
I am in receipt of resolution from Summer-side Board of Trade. The department has every confidence in Captain Brown's ability and integrity but I would be willing nevertheless to send down Captain McElhinney the nautical adviser of the department to advise with you if desired
(Sgd.) JAMES SUTHERLAND.
I have gone futher ; I have asked them to suggest to me the name of any one with the technical knowledge necessary under these circumstances to take charge of the boat. If my hon. friend will suggest a man of character and ability to assist in carrying out this work to see whether or not there has been any lack on the part of the department or of the captain and officers of the boat, I would be only too glad as the head of the department to see that his suggestion is adopted and that every effort possible is made-I may add consistently with using reasonable judgment, and with considering the safety of property and of lives. I do not think that my hon. friend, or any other hon. gentleman, would ask me to insist upon the captain or the officers of the boat committing a useless reckless act. I have made inquiries and even from the members themselves I have the highest recommendations of the captain of the boat who is described as a man of ability and of character and I would be very sorry to know that there is any reason' for feeling that he had not been making every effort in the direction in which he has been instructed to proceed. I have chosen I believe, an officer of standing, being at the head of this branch, a man who I am told is familiar with the locality and I believe every person-at least representative men in the island on both sides of politics-have every confidence in his integrity and ability in connection with this matter. Instead of stopping here, or admitting any defeat in the trial that we are making, I would be pleased to have him go down there and advise with the board of trade and with the members of the council in*regard to this work. I have no objection to bringing down the papers in connection with the matter.


Mr.  A. A.@: LEFURGEY (East Prince, P.E.I.) Mr. Speaker, I may just say for my own part and for my constituency that we have no intention of finding any fault with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) for the action he has taken in the matter, nor can any fault be found with the instructions he has given to the

agent of the department down there. Still the charges made might very well occur under these instructions without any fault of the minister. Whatever communication or conversation he had with members of the board of trade at the time the arrangement was made, this letter came to us from the board of trade and we were bound to take notice of it. The board of trade is a non-political body and it has for its president one of the members of the local government, which is Liberal. Coming with such strong protestations against the officers and the captain of the boat, we simply had to bring it to the notice of the minister that he might take action on it. For my own part, I think that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has been doing all in his power, in the light of the knowledge at his command, in the interest of that route.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Statement in detail showing the quantity of vegetables imported from the United States and entered at the ports of Montreal and Toronto during the years 1900 and 1901 respectively, as well as of the amount of duties collected by the government of Canada during the said two years, at each one of the said ports.-Mr. Leonard.
Copies of ill petitions, resolutions, letters, &c., addressed to the government in relation to an increase or a readjustment of the duties on vegetables, and of all replies sent by the government to said resolutions, petitions and letters.- Mr. Leonard.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Charges of management, $181,743.80.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The principle item of the increase in this vote is $10,000 for the printing of Dominion notes. That is due to the fact, as the House will readily understand, that the circulation of our Dominion notes is constantly expanding, and also to some extent to the fact that there is a demand on the part of gentlemen both inside and outside of parliament, that we shall supply more notes and cleaner notes.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There has been criticism that the notes are not as good as they ought to be, and in order to do away with the necessity for that criticism we intend to try as far as possible to give a constant supply of new notes. That, together with the expansion of circulation, called for an increased appropriation.


David Henderson: Is the minister calling in old soiled notes as rapidly as possible?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes. j Perhaps I ought to explain that the banks *


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: can almost always obtain clean notes if they desire to issue them. I suppose it is a matter of opinion as at what stage a note becomes unfit for circulation. Some bankers would be very fastidious while others might not be so. Our rule is to supply clean notes whenever the others are returned to us. We intend to do that on a larger scale in the future than in the past, in order to meet the disposition of the public to have clean notes. I do not want to adopt the rule of the bank of England, which is that when a note is once issued and returned it never goes out again. I think we can meet the wishes of the people by a moderate extension of our present system.


David Henderson: The action of the minister is very commendable, especially in view of the existence of small-pox throughout the country. I know that bankers are very much annoyed about the condition of these bills and they would prefer very much to have a frequent issue, instead of being compelled to handle these old musty notes which no doubt tend to spread disease.


Mr. SPROULE.: They should disinfect them.


Mr. OSLER.: I am glad to learn from the Minister of Finance that lie proposes to expend more money in the printing of Dominion notes. I think he is rather out when he states that the government is always ready to supply the banks with clean notes. To my knowledge it is a most difficult matter to get from the Receiver General new $1 bills or any kind of $1 bills at all in some seasons of the year. It is almost impossible in Toronto to get a sufficient number of $1 bills to supply the every day requirements of the banks, and so they have to use the old bills over and over again. I am glad to see an increase in this item if it will result in giving a plentiful supply of fairly clean government notes of the smaller denominations.
Governor General's Secretary's Office, including A. F. Sladen at $1,700, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $10,740.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There is a slight increase, chiefly owing to the advancement of Mr. Sladen, who is virtually one of the Governor General's private secretaries. The other increases are $50 and $30 statutory increases to one clerk and one messenger.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You have an increase in this department of nearly $1,000-quite a respectable increase. There were increases last year and the previous year as well, so that you seem to be running it up pretty rapidly.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not think the number of the staff was Increased, but one or two gentlemen in the office have been advanced, for reasons

which I think are satisfactory to the Governor General's secretary.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: What is the reason for the clause, ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act ? ' Has he not passed his examination ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, but he could only be given a $50 increase by the usual method. This gives him a larger sum.
Office of the King's Privy Council of Canada, $31,240.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the hon. minister explain the increase ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: A new chief clerk is appointed, Mr. F. K. Bennett. He is simply transferred from the first-class without any increase of salary. One junior second-class clerk is promoted to the second class. He now receives $1,000, being at the head of his class, and the change involves an increase to $1,100. There is an increase of $30 for a mesenger and the usual statutory increase of $50 for each of the others.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I notice that you give the statutory increase of $50 in only a few Instances.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is pretty generally given.


The PRIME MINISTER.: So far as my department is concerned, I have found all my officers to be deserving of the statutory increase, and I have given it to all except one who was at the highest of his class, and 1 promoted him.


John Graham Haggart: Are you increasing the staff by appointing another first-class clerk ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: No. Mr. May, who is promoted, has been twenty years in the service. The number of officers is exactly the same as last year-twenty-three.


Mr. INGRAM.: Is this Mr. Bennett the man who was engaged in the Post Office Department ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, he has been in the Privy Council office for twenty years.
The Department of the Secretary of State, including W. FoTan at $1,400, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $38,510.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The increase is due to thirteen statutory increases of $50 each, one special increase to Mr. Foran of $100, and a statutory increase to a messenger of $30.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the hon. minister explain why it is that the government appear now to have adopted the principle that not only are all the civil servants eligible
for the statutory increase, but all are entitled to it, whereas in previous years it was repeatedly said that only those would get it who were recommended as specially deserving.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I do not think the government has any different view as to the legal aspect of the case. We have been advised that as a matter of law or right, these gentlemen are not entitled to it. Its payment is discretionary, but the discretion is being exercised this year and last year more liberally than previously.


John Graham Haggart: Has every officer who has been reported by the deputy as entitled to the statutory increase got it 7 The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Yes. Hon. Mr. HAGGART. And only those who are reported get it 1 The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Except in one case, in which the name is specially mentioned.
The Department of Public Printing and Stationery, $30,300.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Increase is explained by thirteen statutory increases at $50, one promotion, which adds $100, and two $30 increases to messengers.


John Graham Haggart: Who is the person promoted 1


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Mr. G. Andrews.


John Graham Haggart: Was there a vacancy in the superior class ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The number of second-class clerks provided for is the same as last year. So I presume there must have been a vacancy.


John Graham Haggart: Did every one in that department who was recommended by the deputy get the statutory increase ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: That is my information.
Office of the Comptroller of the N. W. M. Police, $10,850.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: In this office, which is under the control of Mr. White, there' are five different employees, each of whom has been in the service ten years and more. To each of these has been recommended an increase of $50 and to each the increase is given.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have some inquiries to make regarding this branch, which I suppose I may make just as well on further estimates.


The PRIME MINISTER.: If my hon. friend has any inquiry to make he may make it now or later on when the further estimates come down.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would he more convenient then.

Office of the Auditor General, $31,612.50.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S.	Fielding). There is a small increase here of $275 but the statutory increases cover that and a great deal more. There has been some re-adjustment in the office so that the full amount of statutory increase is given to all those entitled to it without our requiring the full extra vote.


John Graham Haggart: What is the nature of the re-adjustment. This office is costing us a good deal, and it is time some reduction should be made.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I can hardly hold out the hope that it will cost any less, for there is no diminution of zeal in any respect on the part of the Auditor General and his officials. I think that the expense is not excessive considering the work done, but whether such a large book is required is another question. There has been one officer superannuated and some changes owing to promotions. The officer superannuated was receiving a salary of $1,800, and it is that saving which has enabled the statutory increases to be paid with a very small total increase in the vote.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long was that officer in the service who was superannuated?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: He was there the full twenty-five years. He was a very old official-Mr. Simpson, and in the superannuation returns the hon. gentleman will And all the particulars.
. Department of Finance and Treasury Board, including J. Fraser at $2,400, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $52,312.50.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There is an increase here of one in the number of officials but a diminution of the total cost. That has been brought about by filling the vacancies, which have occurred through death and retirement, with younger men at lower salaries. Two gentlemen died and one was retired.


John Graham Haggart: What salary had Mr. Fraser before ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE, lie had $2,200 and is now placed at the maximum of a chief clerk. He is one of the oldest officers in the service and has been practically doing the work of the Dominion bookkeeper for about a year, owing to an older official, and a very valuable man, being an invalid and having had a year's leave of absence.
Department of Inland Revenue, $35,460.


John Graham Haggart: will the hon. minister state how he has been enabled to make a saving here of apparently $2,800 ? Mr. SPROULE.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE (Hon. M. E. Bernier).: The position of commissioner was abolished. The Deputy Minister remains at the same salary $3,200, and also the chief secretary. There are seven first-class clerks, the same as last year, and nine second class instead of ten. One of these was transferred to the Trade and Commerce Department, making a diminution in salary of $1,100. We propose to increase a number of second juniors from three to five. This is done with the view of transferring them from the temporary-service into the permanent service to which they properly belong.


John Graham Haggart: Wliat is the amount of superannuation allowance which the retiring commissioner receives ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVNEUE.: If I am not mistaken, it is $2,800.


John Graham Haggart: Then the whole saving is only $40 because the commissioner is paid out of the superannuation fund.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it intended to fill the assistant commissioner's place in the future ?
The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE No, that position is abolished.


Mr. BENNETT.: On page IS-K of the Auditor General's report I find some pretty large items for the purchase of methylated spirits. I find Gooderham & Worts down for $2,438 and the Hamilton Distilling Co., $4,005. Are tenders asked for or are the prices fixed by the department ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I understand that the price is fixed by the department. The department is entirely free to buy where it pleases.


William Humphrey Bennett: To what extent are these spirits purchased in the course of a year ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I could not say now, but can bring down the exact figures.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is it intended during the coming year to purchase in the open market on tenders or simply let the price be fixed by some party in the department?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I presume the same course is followed as in the past, but I shall inquire and let my hon. friend know what the department propose to do in the future.


John Graham Haggart: The sales of methylated spirits are made by the department at a fixed rate ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: The same to all consumers ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.


William Humphrey Bennett: As the matter is at present as well as we can understand, there may be a combination of the vendors of methylated spirits, and by agreement with the department they fix the price; and those who, in turn, wish to purchase practically fix the price to themselves. For, the minister states that no tenders are asked for the purchase. It seems odd that any department of government will purchase thousands of dollars worth of an article without providing for open competition.
Civil Government-Department of Agriculture, $62,262.50.


John Graham Haggart: There is an increase of about $2,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher).: While there are some changes, the increase, apart from the statutory increases, amounts to $1,600. [DOT] Additional expenditure is made necessary by the appointment of two more examiners in the patent office. The increase due to this change is $2,200, but other reductions will bring the net increase down to $1,600.


John Graham Haggart: Have all the statutory increases granted been recommended by the deputy minister ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: By the acting deputy minister.


John Graham Haggart: Has the hon. minister given the increase to every one to whom it is recommended by the acting deputy minister V


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This item includes a vote to Miss E. A. Rodman ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.' Why is this provision necessary ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Miss Rodman passed the civil service examination some years ago, but was not appointed on the permanent staff until she was over the age provided for by the Act.
Civil Government-Department of Marine and Fisheries, $64,430.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is quite an increase here.	*


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. James Sutherland).: The increase, if I figure it rightly, is $1,540. That would hardly be enough to provide for an increase at the rate of $50 apiece for the officers of the department. During the year Mr. Hardy died. His salary, at the time of his death, was $2,600. The place was filled by promoting one of the first-class clerks who, at present, draws only $1,850.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister has provided for two more hands.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: One, I think.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, there were forty-nine last year and there are fifty-one this year.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: One is to make provision for the minister's private secretary. The other is the case of a young man who was filling the place of a messenger. He qualified himself by passing the civil service examination and becoming competent as a typewriter and otherwise, and has been promoted to be a junior class clerk.
Civil Government-Department of Public Works, $46,530.


William Humphrey Bennett: Have any of the clerks in this department received the statutory increase ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. Israel Tarte).: Yes; the statutory increase has been given to three first-class clerks, two second-class clerks, and one junior class clerk-$50 each. Two messengers have been granted an increase of $30 each. This makes eight statutory increases altogether.


William Humphrey Bennett: Are there only eight clerks in the department who are entitled to the statutory increase ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: Yes.


William Humphrey Bennett: How many clerks are there in the department altogether ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My department is divided in such a way that I cannot state off-hand the exact number. There are branches for which separate amounts will appear later on in the estimates. For instance, the chief architect's and chief engineer's branches are separately voted. But, if my hon. friend desires it, I will give the exact number at another time.


Mr. COCHRANE.: If the hon. minister has been giving the annual increases how comes it that there is a decrease in the total amount.?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: The secretary of the department, Mr. Roy, was superannuated. At that time his salary was $2,100 a year. He has been replaced by another gentleman who receives only $1,850. The gentleman who now fills the office was formerly in receipt of $1,250, but he has been replaced by another who receives $1,100.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Why was Mr. Roy superannuated ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: He was superannuated last year. He had been ill for a long time and could not do his


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why does the hon. minister find it necessary to provide for his accountant ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.'


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Because he receives more than the statutory increase.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: 1 may say that when Mr. Dionne, the chief accountant, died, he was replaced by Mr. Kingston, who was the assistant accountant under him, and we are obliged to give Mr. Kingston a little more, and to put these words in the estimates.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.: With the consent of the House I wish to move to reduce that item we have just passed by $300. My hon. friend from Grey (Mr. Sproule) drew my attention to it. As I explained, a messenger was promoted, and a fair provision will be made for messengers in the supplement-aries. I move that in item seventeen, the sum of $64,430 be reduced by $300.
Item as amended, agreed to.
Post Office Department, $218,760.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Wm. Mulock).: The only changes are some increases amounting in all to $3,570, and some decreases amounting to $3,560. The increases consist of thirty-three at $50 each, and of twenty-four at $30 each, and two junior clerks. The decreases are made up of a miscellaneous number of items arising from promotions and deaths.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Does that amount cover the outside service ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Only
the inside service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I noticed for sojne time that the letter carriers have been making applications for an increase of their salary.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: They
are in the outside service.
perly discussed when we come to the outside service. Perhaps my hon. friend will leave it till then.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Has the hon. gentleman allowed statutory increases in all cases in his department ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Wherever they have been recommended.
The office of the High Commissioner for Canada in England, $8,850.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In that case one of the officers hitherto in the High Commissioner's office has been transferred to the office in London in connection with emigration, under the direction of the Department of the Interior. The work has been divided in that respect, and that officer has been transferred, effecting a saving of $1,800. On the other side, there are three statutory increases of $50, making a reduction of $1,650.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in understanding from the minister that he has divided the High Commissioner's office, or separated from it the branch controlling emigration V


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I would rather that question were answered by the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Clifford Sifton). But practically that is correct. The emigration office has been separated from the High Commissioner's office tor a certain extent, and this gentleman has been transferred from the High Commissioner's office, and will have his salary provided l'or in the votes of the Department of the Interior. So it is a saving so far as the High Commissioner's office is concerned, but the salary will appear in another branch of the public service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: To ascertain whether there will be any saving or otherwise it would be necessary to add the cost of the new office to this one for the coming year.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In this case there is no saving, because the work has to be done and that gentleman's salary will appear in another branch of the service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why were the two offices separated, and under whose recommendation '! I understood there was a little friction in the past.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It might not be inappropriate to mention it, merely to know if the minister is giving their claim due consideration. I suppose it would be premature to expect him to tell us now, but there ought to be an item in these estimates somewhere for that purpose.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The item for the letter carriers belongs to the outside service, and the subject will be pro-Hon. Mr. TARTE.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I will ask my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior to answer that question.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: The idea of making the change was that an office should be procured in another part of the city where particular attention would be given to emigration matters, and where a proper display of the products of Canada could be

made. On the advice of the High Commissioner, one of the officers in his office who had had special cognizance of emigration work was detached from his office, and this is supposed to be a new office established in another part of the city. The gentleman sent over in connection with these matters has not yet returned, and I have not yet received his report, but I will make a full explanation when immigration estimates come up.


Mr. WILSON.: Perhaps the minister would tell us who is at the head of the Emigration Department now in England, and whether he is subject to the High Commissioner ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He will be subject to the High Commissioner by statute. The statute constituting the office of the High Commissioner provides that he is in charge of the emigration work in Great Britain, and no change is proposed to be made in that respect.
Department of Labour.-The whole or any portion may he paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $13,450.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like the hon. gentleman to say what that means.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am glad my hon. friend has called attention to it. If he will turn to page 18 of the estimates he will find the particulars. Deputy head and editor of ' Labour Gazette,' $8,200; assistant editor of ' Labour Gazette,' $1,500; two fair-wage officers, $3,000; three stenographers and clerks, $2,950; three clerks, $2,800. The hon. gentleman will observe by reference to this list, for the first time votes the salary of a deputy head to the present occupant of the position. The Act of 1900 created the department and the Civil Service Act calls for a certain minimum salary being paid to the deputy head of such a department. The lowest salary provided by the statute for a deputy head is $3,200. This deputy begins, therefore, at that salary. The next item is $1,500 for the assistant editor of the ' Labour Gazette.' The assistant editor was Mr. Harper, who filled the position with great credit to himself and with advantage to the country, and, as you know, lost his life a short time ago in a very chivalrous act on the Ottawa River. He has been succeeded in the office by Mr. Coates, a man of promise a distinguished graduate of the university, who has made a study of political science to some extent, who is a man of capacity and I look for good results from him. The other officers are those who have always been in this department and there is no proposed change in their salaries.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if this is the only department in which the removal expenses of any new appointee are paid. Take for instance
the case of Mr. Frank Plant, of London ; his expenses were paid from London to Ottawa. Last year it appeared in the Auditor General's report in respect to Mr. D. J. O'Donohue, whose removal expenses were paid from Toronto to Ottawa. They were paid by order in council and the Auditor General objected to it. I find that the expenses of Mr. Frank Plant were paid from London to Ottawa. Can the department pay by order in council or how were the expenses paid-under the Civil Service Act ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: , I do not know the technical authority for such a payment, whether by order of the statute and effect given to it by order in council, but I am sure, on reflection, my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) will take no exception to this particular transaction. The official in question is a most worthy man. His initial salary was comparatively trifling, he was very highly recommended by many of a class in whom my hon. friend takes a very great interest and he has fully justified the recommendation made in support of his appointment. As to whether an order in council was passed or not authorizing the payment, I do not know. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) was the acting minister in my place, last year, when the payment was made, and if my hon. friend desires information, if he would be good enough to allow me to bring it down on another item I will be glad to furnish him with all information on the subject.


Andrew B. Ingram: Last year I thought the proceeding was not a usual one. I did not think that any department made a practice of doing that sort of thing. I did not bring the matter up for the purpose of raising an objection to the person whose expenses were paid at the time particularly, but it was against the principle that I was objecting. My reason for asking the question now is to find out whether other departments of government pay the removal expenses of their new appointees because I have this to say that there is a large number of men in this country who would be glad to receive the salaries that are paid to these gentlemen and pay their own removal expenses. I think the principle is a bad one and I object to the principle, not to the parties who have received these expenses.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see this note below :-
This amount or any portion of it may be paid
notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.
These are civil servants. Where do you get the authority then ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) explains that these officers are not civil servants, not having passed the Civil Service examination. The fact is that up to the present moment the Civil Service

Act Inis not provided a class of officers such as is named in this schedule and therefore though they are here treated ns if they were regular civil servants, in fact they are not civil servants, and this makes it quite clear that they are not obliged to comply with the act in order to draw the payment voted by parliament.	.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Why not specify those that come under the Civil Service Act and these that are excepted.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I say that nonfe of them have passed the examination. None of the officers in this department outside of the deputy minister is an officer provided for under the Civil Service Act. If you look at the Civil Service Act you will find that it gives a schedule of the various departments and that this department is not named by the Act.


Mr. BROCK.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if the sum of $4,700 is the total expense of the 'Labour Gazette'.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: What page ?


William Rees Brock: In the estimates, page 18, in connection with the department of labour, there are two sums, deputy head and editor of ' Labour Gazette ", $3,200, and assistant editor of ' Labour Gazette ", $1,500. This paper is published weekly I believe?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Published monthly.


William Rees Brock: The cost of the editorial management, I suppose in connection with that of the deputy head of the department, is $4,700. Is that the total expense of publishing this gazette ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No.


William Rees Brock: Where will we find the balance of this expense?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The
balance appears in the Auditor General's report.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Brock) will find in the latter portion of the estimates that there is an item for publishing the ' Labour Gazette ' which includes that.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman will find in the Auditor General's report full particulars of the expenditure for the last fiscal year and perhaps he will prefer to discuss it after having looked at these items. There will be an opportunity.


William Rees Brock: I am not going to discuss the item, but it struck me that the editorial charges for a journal published monthly when compared with the editorial charges on monthly and weekly papers are exextremely high. This ' Labour Gazette ' has caused a good deal of difficulty. It is Hon. Mr. MULOCK.
a very difficult paper to get at. Statements are made in it at times that are absolutely incorrect, and when an attempt is made to correct them, the communications are quietly ignored. I think it should be more directly under the control of the minister himself, and if so I believe the country would have a good deal more confidence in it. The appropriation taken here is a very large sum for services in connection with the publishing of a monthly paper. I have no doubt that it is caused to some extent by the editor being ranked as a deputy head, which I suppose means chief editor of the ' Labour Gazette ' for collecting information and so forth. This paper should be carefully looked after because it is tending to make the department very unpopular. I hear complaints ; I have had occasion to make complaints myself, but we could get no acknowledgment. When it is stated that such a mill is working full time and when the ' Labour Gazette ' is informed that the mill is not working full time or half time, no correction is ever made.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Wm. Mulock).: As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brock) has given no particulars I am not able to controvert what he has said. If he will tell me of any misstatements that appeared in the ' Gazette,' his complaint will be very carefully considered. This is the first time I have ever heard of any such charge, and I think the hon. gentleman will search in vain for a case in which a complaint to the department has not received courteous acknowledgment and every consideration that the case called for. We will have this item under discussion again, and if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brock) informs me of any complaints in advance, I will have them thoroughly inquired into. I can assure him that there is nothing about which the head of the department and the deputy head are more anxious than that only statements of facts, matters that are absolutely time-not merely true technically but substantially true and fair-should appear in the ' Gazette.' No opinions are published ; and it is supposed to be simply a record of facts for the information of employers and employees alike.


William Rees Brock: This criticism is confined entirely to the very large expenditure connected with the issue of a monthly paper.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is not all for that. The Department of Labour has many other duties to perform besides editing and issuing the ' Gazette.' The Conciliation Act of 1890 charges the department with trade disputes, and the Deputy Minister of Labour has rendered invaluable services to the country in adjusting many of those trade. disputes. If the hon. gentleman will be good enough to read the first annual report of the depart-

ment he will find that out for himself, and when he has read it his views will be entitled to more weight.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. How many pages in the report.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is very brief, but it is a very interesting and a most valuable document.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. It does not seem to. compare with the great question of labour, if I judge by the size of the book.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We must not judge of anything by its size.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. That is exactly where you are mistaken.


Andrew B. Ingram: Last year this matter was pretty freely discussed and the Labour Department was strongly advised to be careful of interfering witli anything of a party character in this ' Labour Gazette.'
I do not know that much fault can be found witli the ' Gazette ' from a party standpoint but I think the object of the publication of that ' Gazette ' is not fully met. Those engaged in the large manufacturing concerns of this country have some interest in labour problems, and I notice that at a recent meeting of the Manufacturer's Association in Montreal, strong objections were made to the maimer in which the ' Labour Gazette ' was edited. They complained that the manufacturers were excluded from any discussion in that paper. I believe that a similar organ in the United States imblislies letters from both sides interested in the labour problem. The manufacturers of Canada complained that our ' Labour Gazette ' did not set forth their side of the question, and that they were not permitted to publish their views in it in case of disputes between employers and employees. There ought to be harmony between the employers and the employees, between labour and capital, and there is no way that this can be brought about so readily as through free discussion by both sides to the controversy. I think this suggestion ought to be considered by those in charge of the ' Labour Gazette,' and if its adoption should result in increasing the cost of circulation the wider interest taken in the paper- might to some extent repay the extra cost.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) has alluded to the resolution passed by the Manufacturer's Association. I should have expected to find him on the other side of such a question as this. It is quite true that very important body did pass such a resolution, but I think that the resolution does not fairly express the deliberate opinion of thoughtful members of that association.^ It was a general resolution, without particulars, and I am perfectly satisfied that whoever were instrumental in causing that resolution to be passed would have reason to change their views if they more fully understood the question. It is quite true that the Canadian ' Labour Gazette1 does not follow the ' Labour Bulletin ' published at Washington. The Canadian ' Labour Gazette ' follows in style and object the precedent furnished by the ' Labour Gazette ' of Great Britain which contains a record of facts and not of opinions. When parliament was considering the Bill authorizing- the establishment of the ' Labour Gazette ' I said that it was not to be an organ for publishing opinions, but that the intention was to give statistical information which statistics, if they be true, and as I believe them to be true, are as valuable to one class as to an other. The ' Labour Gazette ' is not a class publication at all. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) would have us copy the model set at Washington. That is not the model that this government is following. The * Washington Bulletin ' is an organ of opinions, and I leave it to hon. gentlemen to say whether the publication of the opinions of extreme men is as useful to employers and employees in industrial matters ns is the publication of statistical information which is valuable to both sides. The ' Labour Gazette ' does not purport to give any opinions. We believe that it is better to give the facts and allow the working classes, employers and employees alike, to form their own opinions. We tell them the state of affairs in different industries.
We have correspondents at centres in Canada, whose duty it is to report to us the state of the labour market, and it is to the advantage of the employer and the employee equally to have that information. We have each month a leading article dealing with some great industry-one month the iron industry, its condition and resources, another month the lumber industry, another the fishing industry, and so on. These articles are compiled after the greatest labour and with the greatest care, and not simply by reference to employees, but after having obtained the most accurate information possible from all classes. The department has a form of inquiry which it sends out when the officers are studying a subject. These forms are sent both to employers and employees, and the most thorough and honest effort is made to acquire accurate information for dissemination throughout the country. This is a task in itself involving an amount of research which no ordinary newspaper undertakes; and the information thus obtained is of permanent value. It is infinitely more valuable than the information of a person who perhaps takes an extreme view of a question on one side or the other; and so far as I know, what has been furnished has been absolutely correct. The more the object and the

method of this 'Gazette' and this department are known, the more they will commend themselves to the public as being in every respect in the best interest of Canada. My hon. friend from Centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) alludes to the salary of the Deputy Minister of Labour, and unintentionally falls into the error of assuming that he has no duties to perform except editing the ' Labour Gazette.' I can inform him differently, and I am sure that on reference to the report, little as it is, he will see that the department is performing a valuable service not only to employees, but also to the large class in whom the hon. gentleman is especially interested, the employers. I shall expect the hon. gentleman to give me that detailed information.


William Rees Brock: If this gentleman has something else to do besides editing the 'Gazette,' he has a good many to help him, because I find that $13,450 is added to the expense of that office, for the employment of fair-wage officers, stenographers, clerks, &c. I suppose he attends to his particular department just as any editor does; these people largely do the work for him, while he merely compiles it. I think the pay for journalistic work, as it is paid in this country, especially work on a monthly journal, is very high.


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not think the hon. gentleman intended to accuse me of approving of the resolution passed by the Manufacturers' Association. I simply mentioned that incidentally; but I go as far as to say that I think their side of the case should be permitted to be explained at times in the [DOT] Labour Gazette.'


Mr. CASGRAIN.: Allusion has been made to the cost of the 'Labour Gazette,' and I find that it does cost a great deal of money. If hon. members will look at it, they will find that it is a monthly publication of fifty pages. The editor-in-chief receives $3,500, and the assistant editor receives $1,500. I will allow for the fact just mentioned by the Minister of Labour that the editor-in-chief has some other duties to perform than simply editing this paper; but, as my hon. friend from Centre Toronto has said, I do not see what the other gentlemen employed in that office have to do. They cannot have much to do, if we are to judge from the report. Then, there are correspondents all over the country who are paid $100 each-not as is generally done in the case of other newspapers, which pay their correspondents as they send in items, but paying them a lump sum of $100 a year, whether they do any work or not.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is not correct.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: It is so stated in the Auditor General's Report. I find on page N-2 a list of correspondents at $100 per annum; so that if a correspondent works a great deal or only a little he gets this sum.


Hon. Mr. MULOCK.: So far as I know journalistic affairs, that is not the way correspondents are paid. I also find that $200 is paid to a legal correspondent, Mr. Lyon. If this is the Mr. Lyon whom I know in Montreal, I must say he is a most competent young gentleman, and if given the opportunity of reporting decisions concerning labour in this paper, he will earn the $200. A great many other items bring the cost of this paper up to about $18,000 per year, allowing to the Deputy Minister of Labour something for certain other duties. That brings the cost of this small monthly volume to about $1,500. My hon. friend says that this is not a publication in which the editor-in-chief has any opinions to express. He has only the work of compiling; and I say that $3,500 to the chief compiler and $1,500 to the deputy compiler are very large sums to pay. I venture to say that there is not in this country a publication of the same importance which costs as much as this 'Labour Gazette.' No doubt it is a valuable publication; I do not want to depreciate the value of the services my hon. friend has attempted to give by means of it; but I find that it has only 800 subscribers. I would like to know whether these are all bona fide subscribers, who pay their subscription of 20 cents per year. This publication is of course distributed gratuitously to the members and senators, and I would like to know to what other persons it is issued gratuitously. If the publication is as valuable to the labouring classes as my hon. friend thinks it is, it seems to me that its circulation is very limited. At all events the cost is exorbitant- $18,000 a year for this publication-paying editors, sub-editors and correspondents. It is a drain upon the country, which is not compensated for by the services rendered by this department.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend is generally fair and not apt to disregard the facts even by inadvertence. I would ask him is it fair to treat this expenditure as wholly on behalf of the ' Labour Gazette ? ' If he will study the items, he will find at least one of $3,000 which has nothing whatever to do with this publication.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I did not include that.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: My hon. friend added up all the figures, and he cited something against the ' Gazette ' from the Auditor General's report which is not to be found in that report. He said that the correspondents were paid $100 a year, whether they did any work or not, and gave the Auditor General's report as his authority. But there is nothing in that report to warrant any such statement. All through the votes of parliament, you will find votes of so much a year to certain individuals, but you will also find rules governing their service, and if these men co

not earn their salaries, it is the duty of the department to see that they are not paid. Each correspondent is obliged to make a monthly report. If he fails to make his report any month, he does not receive the proportion of salary assignable to that report. His if 100 is divided into twelve parts, and on the receipt of his report each month, he receives his monthly pay, but not otherwise.
My hon. friend seems to have been cn the hunt for argument against this bureau. He suggests that the department does nothing else but compile. Well, my hou. friend has not the faintest idea of wliat is involved in compiling, or he would not talk so flippantly. If he desires to be informed, let him visit the department and he will there see the amount of detail gathered from all parts of this Dominion, and what has to be utilized in the various statements made and conclusions arrived at. He will And that there is not a single statement made or conclusion reached which does not involve considerable research. If he examines the schedules that come in, giving the statistical details regarding some great industry, I am sure he would have a much higher opinion of the labour involved and the skill required by the officers in the discharge of their duties than he evidently has at present.
The ' Gazette ' itself is not a medium for publishing the views of any section or class.
I may tell my hon. friend from East Elgin (Mr. Ingram), that there never was any intention of allowing one side or another to ventilate their opinions through its columns, and a study of the ' Gazette ' will bear out what I sav.
My hon. friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) quotes the Auditor General's report as showing a circulation of 800 subscribers and find that a very small circulation. But my hon. friend, as a member of parliament must know full well that every public document has a large free ilst, and the ' Labour Gazette ' is no exception. It is sent to the secretary or some other officer of every trade union in Canada, and outside of Canada, it is sent, by way of exchange, to the various governments throughout the world. It is also sent to the libraries in Canada and is forwarded as a useful medium for information wherever any official desire is expressed for it. It is not gratuitously distributed among individuals, and the hon. gentleman must also remember that the ' Gazette ' only came into existence in September, 1900 : so that the Auditor General's report deals only with a fraction of its first year, namely, up to the 30th June, following.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: ' What is the circulation 7


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I believe it is many thousands, partly free and
partly paid for, and it is doing good work.
1 will get the information and bring it down, and if there is any other information which the hon. gentleman desires, I shall be glad to give it to him, because I wish to dislodge from his mind these erroneous opinions which have caused him to assume an attitude of hostility towards a movement that has already been of great service and is calculated to be of still greater service to the country. I do not suppose he desires to be regarded as implacably arrayed against this movement.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: No.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We have a Department of Agriculture to deal with the interests of agriculturists, we have a Department of Trade and Commerce, which takes cognizance of all questions relating to the commercial class; and in giving-special attention to another great class, the industrial classes. I think we are entitled to the support of our hon. friends opposite, and I know we have the support of the great majority of the people outside this House. The subject is too important to be made a party question, and I hope that hon. members will not allow themselves to consider it from a party standpoint. I am quite anxious to have fair criticism, but I do not think that such sweeping criticism as the saying the 'Labour Gazette' costs too much, and that it is nothing but a compilation, without taking into account the many important duties performed, is one that we should be expected to meet.
Let me point out another duty which the ' Labour Gazette ' has to perform, and in which it is of great service to the country as well as to the labouring classes. Parliament in 1900 passed a resolution declaring that in all government contracts the government should see that fair-going wages were paid to the working men. That in itself is a task involving a great deal of labour. The Department of Labour is of great assistance to the other departments in complying with that resolution. The fair-wage officers are obliged, in the discharge of their duties, to travel from ocean to ocean in the search of information for the guidance of the various ministers. The duty of the Deputy Minister is not merely to see that the ' Gazette ' is published and that others do their work-although that is of no small importance-but he has many duties outside of the publication of the 'Gazette.' My hon. friend from Centre Toronto is a large employer of labour. Well, I am bound to say that he does very little of the actual labour himself, but he has a manager and men to carry out his will, and is responsible for the success of the institution of which he is the head. And I am sure I can congratulate the men on having him as that employer.

We have to pay for brains and the Deputy Minister of Labour is a very able man. Let me tell my bon. friend the difficulty we have had In retaining the services of that gentleman. I do not wish that gentleman to be the subject of criticism in this House unless he deserves it. It is the privilege of hon. gentlemen opposite to criticise him. It is their privilege to detract from his merits. But it is our duty to see to it that he is fairly understood, and that the sacrifice he is making in serving Canada and in retaining the position he is now filling so well as Deputy Minister of Labour is known. Mr. Mackenzie King is one of the most gifted men, I venture to say, who could be found for the position. Moreover, there is not a man in Canada to-day who has studied more deeply the great problems of labour. After having devoted his university under-graduate career to the study of this subject, he took up a postgraduate course, first in the University of Chicago. He was invited to Harvard and there was given a fellowship, and the authorities of Harvard University thought so highly of him, that they desired him to associate himself with their professional staff. They sent him abroad at their expense for two years to study the great problems of labour, on the understanding that he was to return and take a position in that great university. I was not aware of that offer having been made to him when we were organizing this department ; and, knowing of his standing, my colleagues authorized me to make overtures to him. I did so, by inviting him to come here in connection with this Department of Labour. He declined the offer, on account of his engagement with Harvard. But, when he returned on laying the case before Hav-vard University they very generously relieved him of that understanding, for he preferred to serve his own country if possible. After a while a vacancy occurred in Harvard University through the professor of political science there being appointed to a university in Great Britain. The University of Harvard again made overtures to Mr. King and offered him n chair, one of the most attractive offers that could be presented to a young man of talent and ambition such as the Deputy Minister of Labour. He is making large pecuniary sacrifices in remaining in this department in Canada. That is Mr. King's record. He will prove in time, and has already proved, the wisdom of the choice the government made in placing him in his present position.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: I am sorry to see the hon. Postmaster General who showed so much good humour at the beginning, exhibit a different feeling now. As I said,
I think the country will be grateful to my hon. friend for his good intentions ; but I think we may differ as to the results he has


William Mulock: i achieved. The hon. gentleman can hardly I deny that this is a subject open to the criticism of parliament, and one) about which we may as fairly question him as upon any other. He must not get angry whenever we touch this enfant cheri of his ; for, if he decides to do that, I am afraid he will be angry very often. I should be very sorry indeed if I have laid myself open to the implication of unfairness to the hon. gentleman. I did not take the amounts I mentioned from the item before ns, but from page N-2 of the Auditor General's Report. These items relate to the editing of the paper, the paying of correspondents, the printing and distributing of the paper-in a word, all those items which have to do with make-up and circulation of the ' Labour Gazette. And I find-and the hon. gentleman if he looks at the figures will see that I am right-that the paper costs $18,000. Now, as to the editor-in-chief, what I said was about the editing of this paper ; and, after the remarks of the hon. gentleman, I think I was justified in coming to the conclusion that the editing cost too much. For the hon. gentleman said that Mr. King did not express opinions in the paper, was not engaged in writing articles upon these great questions of labour which agitate the country, but was concerned more directly with the compilation of statistics received from different parts of this country and other countries. I expressed the opinion-I may be wrong and the hon. gentleman may be right-that $8,200 for this gentleman and $1,500 for an assistant editor and $1,817.47 for correspondents, is too much to pay for such a paper as we have before us. I do not say that it woidd be too much for what would be a good ' Labour Gazette,' for the kind of paper in which the labouring classes of this country could get the proper information to which they are entitled, but I am speaking of the ' Labour Gazette ' as I find it before me. Hon. gentlemen who have some knowledge of publishing a paper know that, for instance,' a paper of eight pages issued daily, costs only about $1,000 a week. But here is a paper, which is only issued once a month, and it costs $1,500 for one number. I leave it to this committee to say whether that is not too great a price to pay for the paper which is placed in our hands. Is that unfair criticism ? I take the figures from the reports that the government supplies, and I take the ' Labour Gazette ' as I find it. This being so and my remarks having been what they were, I think it was uncalled for on the part of my hon. friend to say that my criticism was unfair.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I would remind my hon. friend (Mr. Cas-grain) that he is charging against the ' Labour Gazette ' expenses of the Labour Department generally.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain: Not at all.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman has charged against the paper the whole salaries of the Deputy Minister and his assistant. I have explained to him that the department has many other duties to perform than the publishing of the ' Labour Gazette.' It has to do with arbitration, with administration of the Conciliation Act, with the fair-wages policy, the Canadian labour policy-all these in addition to preparing the ' Labour Gazette.' The hon. gentleman-and I am sure that he will be the first upon reflection to see it-has made an unfair representation of the case when he charges all this expenditure to the ' Labour Gazette.' I would again say that I did not suggest that the Deputy Minister devoted his time merely to compiling. I merely indicated the course of procedure in the preparation of the ' Labour Gazette.' There is compiling to be done, but I did not say that the Deputy Minister did it. The Deputy Minister is engaged in the management of the department, a large department, and one with which I wish the hon. gentlemau and his friends would familiarize themselves. If they did so they would be more friendly to it.


Mr. PUTTEE.: The policy of inaugurating this department and the work that the department is doing are not to be considered as above criticism. But I fear that the hon. gentlemen who are criticising it have not paid sufficient attention either to the ' Labour Gazette ' or to the Labour Department to make their criticism of much value. I have no idea at all that the whole business of the department is editing and the turning out of the ' Labour Gazette.' In fact my idea was that the Labour Department would have a great deal more work to do than it has done. It is a matter of remark at the present time that the report of the deputy minister contains hardly a word in reference to the railway men of this country, who form one section of labour, at all events, which has been altogether overlooked. In respect to the circulation of the ' Gazette,' which is said to be only 600, if the hon. gentlemen will examine the report which is in their hands, they will find that the paid subscription on the 30th of June last was 4,354. Now, considering that this is a government publication, and that most people expect to get such papers free, it seems to me that is a remarkably good circulation to have worked up in that time. In fact, if any gentleman has been engaged in the business of working up a circulation, he will rather envy the ' Labour Gazette.'
I think probably one of the few compliments that have been paid to the ' Gazette ' during the past year is the resolution passed by the Manufacturers' Association, because no sooner had that been passed than the question was put from the chair asking 7
those present what position they took in regard to the ' Gazette '; and from their own reports most of those present stated that they immediately threw all communications into the waste paper basket. Now we have our hon. friend from Centre Toronto (Ml-. Brock) saying they had complaints to make, that their representations are not properly attended to in the department. If the department treats their communications in the same way as they treat it's, why of course there is simply a deadlock. I believe that any fair-minded person that has read the ' Labour Gazette ' during the past year will say that there is no cause for complaint on behalf of the manufacturers, at least, that their side is not properly put forth. The ' Gazette ' is colourless, it is too colourless, that has been the complaint on behalf of the labour men. But that it errs in shutting out the manufacturers' interests seems to me not to be the case. Probably there is a good deal to be said for the minister's argument that the idea of the ' Gazette ' is to make it purely a matter of figures, colourless altogether, and to express no opinions. There are other gazettes who deviate somewhat from that line, and I think, with good results. If the ' Gazette ' goes a little farther in that respect I believe it will be more acceptable to those for whom it is published. In reference to the criticism that has been made in regard to the circulation, and to complaints being made, I hope the minister, when we come to the items where this can properly be discussed, will bring down all the complaints that are made, and tell us what has been done and what is expected to be done in the future with the ' Gazette,' and by the Labour Department generally. We feel that the department cannot stop where it is now, that it has either to get fossilized, or else take up a more advanced position.


Andrew B. Ingram: I am glad the hon. gentleman from Winnipeg (Mr. Puttee), who wishes to be considered a leader of labour has confirmed the idea I expressed. I have certainly found labour men who take a prominent part in labour questions making complaints for the reason that the ' Gazette,' so far as they were concerned, was too colourless. They profess to be leaders of labour, but were unable to express the opinions of the enlightened labour element of this country, and for that reason they were precluded from having such letters as these published in the ' Labour Gazette.' Supposing the department did publish these letters, it would naturally follow that there would be a discussion on the subject by persons taking different views. These labour men believe that a discussion such as that might be in the interest of the labour men throughout the country. That is the reason I expressed the opinion that I did at first.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to get some further information about the authority which justifies this item as I see it here-



' The whole or any portion may be paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act.' The answer the minister gave me I understood was that the employees were not included in the schedule contained in the Civil Service Act. I took the trouble to look up that Act, and it reads as follows :
The civil service for the purpose of this Act includes and consists of all classes of employees elsewhere than in the North-west Territories, in or under the several departments of the Executive Government of Canada, in the office of the Auditor General, and included in schedule ' a ' and ' b ' to this Act, appointed by the Governor in Council.
Schedule ' a ' would cover this, I presume. In the first place schedule ' a ' is composed of deputy heads of departments, officers who have special professional or technical qualifications, chief clerks, first class clerks and second class clerks. Now this is called the Department of Labour, therefore It is under a department and is controlled by a deputy head, and is under an executive head who is a Minister of the Crown. Therefore it comes under the Act in that respect, it is a Department of Labour. Now, according to the estimates put before us here, you have a deputy head and you have clerks. The only difference that I see between this schedule and the other is that this one says ' Chief clerks, first-class clerks and second-class clerks.' It does appear to me that you cannot evade the responsibility of the Act by saying ' clerks ' and leaving out 'chief clerks, first-class clerks or second-class clerks.' they are clerks all the same. As I said, it is under a deputy head, under the executive branch of the government, under a Minister of the Crown. The appointments are made by order in council, and the parties employed come under that schedule. As I interpret it, therefore I think it must fairly come under the Civil Service Act. [DOT]


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is for the purpose of examination, they do not pass an examination.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But they should. I think that is where the mistake is made, or else they must be appointed because of technical knowledge, which is not the claim made here. I think there ought to be a stronger reason given than 'any we hare had for asking us to pass this vote.


William Humphrey Bennett: After the description given by the Postmaster General of the abilities of the gentleman who conducts this department, and knowing as he did before that gentleman entered the employ of the government of his transcendent abilities, the House will be surprised to know that this heavy taskmaster, the Postmaster General, insisted upon this gentleman working at the rate of $1,750 a year when he first entered the service. He seems to have done him the greatest unfairness in view of the gentleman's ability of which the min-


Thomas Simpson Sproule: ister speaks. Afterwards the salary was increased to $2,250, and now it is raised to $3,200. Last year when this question of the Labour Department was before the House, there was a very long discussion on the subject in view of the fact that the expense had risen by such a large amount. Now I am going to say a few words of local interest in reference to this so-called ' Labour Gazette.' In the east riding of Simcoe, particularly, I can tell the minister that the efforts of the ' Labour Gazette ' are not at all appreciated. There was a strike in the carriage factory in the town of Orillia, and instead of that matter being probed to the bottom, instead of its being thoroughly exposed, I am told, though I did not see the reports at the time, that they were far from being truthful, in reference to the strike in that establishment, and the real reason assigned for it was that the owner of the carriage factory, Mr. Tudhope, is the Liberal candidate in that riding for the local assembly. Now if the same treatment is accorded labour men in other parts of the Dominion by this labour journal, then I say its efforts are not appreciated. So far as the labour efforts of the government go they are worth nothing in that part of the country, for this reason, that though an enforcement of the Alien Labour Act would have been highly beneficial, it is allowed to remain a dead letter, American tugs manned with American employees are permitted to ply in and out of the harbours there, while Canadian tugs are not permitted to ply in American waters. By reason of the owners of these tugs being friends of this government they are permitted to ply in Canadian waters contrary to all the coasting Acts of the province or the Dominion. When this item was before the House last year I then took occasion to point to the ridiculous articles that were sent in by correspondents, and as the hon. minister was not here then let him listen for a moment to some of the articles that appeared in this ' Labour Gazette.' Here is one that came from Vancouver.
The bar-tenders report work well. The average wages earned are from $40 to $65 a month, with board.
Then, from that Sodom of Canada, at the present time, London, comes the following :
The local bar-tenders aTe taking steps to organize the bar-tenders of St. Thomas. They report the organization in a prosperous condition.
If the people of this country want to pay their hard earned money for rot of that kind, they should be well pleased with the efforts of the minister. I thought that Mr. King, the gentleman in charge of the department, sitting as he did sit on the floor of this House last year, and hearing these reports and the complaints to the minister would at least have exercised some restraint and placed some restrictions upon the re-

19S
jwrts that are published. For example I take the issue of the 'Gazette' for the month of February which shows that in order to earn the $100 that these correspondents are receiving in a year they stick into this publication the most nonsensical and absurd statements possible. In every case I am bound to say that these correspondents are just as in the ease of Mr. Phillips Thompson, of Toronto, party hacks of the government. For instance here is a report that the livery business is good on account of sleighing. Is that not a wonderful item of news to be communicated at the cost of this country? How could the livery business be otherwise with good sleighing? Mr. King goes on further:
Many men are employed at union wages getting out ice for the breweries.
In the name of all that is good what other time would they get out ice except during the winter months? Mr. Phillips Thompson says:
In addition to the demand caused by the meeting of the legislature, the provincial campaign will give an impetus to the trade.
Of printing. I do not know whether he had ballots in view or not.


An hon. MEMBER.: Extra ones.


William Humphrey Bennett: Extra ones, of course. It was reserved for this hard worked correspondent at Hamilton to give items that are really of great importance. He says:
There are hundreds of bar-tenders and waiters employed in the city at hotels and restaurants. Wages are very good. The former are members of the Bar-tenders International League and are affiliated with the Trades and Labour Council.
So that, apparently, he is having a great deal of solicitude again for the bar-tenders. I find another item that is not at all savouring of gallantry on the part of the editor of the ' Gazette,' for coming from the city of London; there is this item:
The bar-tenders are asking all union men to refuse patronizing any hotel in the city where bar-maids are employed.
Let the people know what they are paying their money for. Let them know that they are paying first and foremost the gentleman who fills this office $3,200 a year. Had it been announced when he came into the position first that his salary was to be $3,200 a year, I am bound to say that some of the hon. gentleman's friends would have -objected to it. I have heard something of the salaries paid to editorial writers in this country, and I will be bound to say that there are very few editors in the large cities of this country receiving $3,200 a year. In the smaller cities where a man of necessity must bring to the conduct of a newspaper a large amount of ability they do not receive any such salaries. Take the case of these correspondents and we see that all 74
these party friends and hacks are employed at $8 a month to send in these items that can interest a very few people to say the least. The government had better spend a little of the money in the enforcement of the Alien Labour Act in this country, and in particular on the shores of the Georgian Bay at the present time. There is not a point on the Georgian Bay where navigators and vesselmen are not protesting and protesting strongly against the government permitting American tugs to come in and contravene the laws and securing employment while the same right is denied to men going from this side to the other.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think we ought to have some more information, as a discussion on this particular question will not be permitted on the item in connection with the expenditure of the bureau, as to why these officers do not come under the Civil Service Act.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The Civil Service Act requires that persons appointed shall pass the Civil Service examination. Therefore, unless we put this exception in, they would not receive their pay.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I can understand you saying that on each item. When we come to a name in the estimates we say that we vote this sum ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act ', but in this case you say that any portion of this expenditure may be paid notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act and you make a lump sum of it.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: They have not passed the examination.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That would not keep them out.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The Auditor General would not pay the money.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Prime Minister, House adjourned at 6 p.m.

Friday, February 21, 1902.