1902-05-06

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Bill (No. 160) to incorporate the Dominion Association of Chartered Accountants.-Mr. Belcourt.
Bill (No. 158) to incorporate the Union Life Insurance Company.-Mr. Ingram.

Mr.  L. N.@: CHAMPAGNE (Wright) moved that the fourth report of the Select Standing Committee appointed to supervise the official report of the debates of this House during the present session, be now concurred in. He said : The report speaks for itself. It recommends :
1.	That the salary, viz., $1,200, now paid to Mr. Wilfrid Larose for his services as Chief Translator of the Debates be increased to $2,000 per annum, It being understood that the said chief translator shall, as heretofore, be responsible for the management of the office and the making of the index to the French edition of the Debates.
2.	That the present salary of $1,000 paid to each member of the staff of translators of the Debates, be increased to $1,500 per annum.
3.	That the above mentioned increases date from the beginning of the present session.
As chairman of the Debates Committee, n few w'ords of explanation from myself may be required in support of the action which has been taken by the committee. These employees have been petitioning the committee for a couple of years for an increase of salary. They came before the committee last year and put their claims before us. The question was fully discussed, but it was thought advisable at that time to postpone the matter. They came before the committee again this year urging that
tiiey were entitled to an increase of salary, that the salary which was allowed them was not in proportion to the salaries given to other officers of this House, and that for all the reasons set forth in their petition, they were entitled to an increase. After having fully considered the matter, the members of the committee unanimously came to the conclusion that they were entitled to some increase. The translators asked for an increase of $1,000, which would mean a salary of $2,000 a year. The committee granted them an increase of $500, which would mean a salary of $1,500 a year; this decision was unanimously arrived at by the committee, and we now come before the House and the government asking that the necessary appropriation be made. 1 need not remind the House, Mr. Speaker, that unless exceptional reasons of a serious character can be shown to the contrary, the report of the committee ought to be adopted. I think that rule has been laid down before the House and accepted on many occasions. This committee have thought fit to recommend to the House and to the government an increase in the salary of these employees. If the government wish 1o take control of these employees, well and good, I for one as chairman of the committee would not have the slightest objection ; but so long as they remain under the control of the Debates Committee the suggestions of that committee with respect to their position ought be endorsed by the House and the government. I may perhaps be permitted to remand the House of the expression of opinion which was given on 'the subject as far back as 1884, by members of the House and members of the government, who stated at that time that these translators were deserving of more salary than they were getting. I might quote Mr. Coursol, Sir Hector Langevin and the Hon. Edward Blake, who expressed the opinion that these gentlemen were not sufficiently rewarded l or their services. Now, Mr. Speaker, I hope the government will take steps to carry the recommendation of the committee into effect. We may be told that it is rather late in the session. But I may say that in 1900 we came before the House with a report recommending that the remuneration of these translators be increased by $250 on account of the unusual length of that session. It was not then considered too late in the session to take action. The report was adopted by the House on July IT, and prorogation took place the next day. I have no doubt, that if the government desire to lie fair towards these gentlemen they wdll take the necessary means, either by inserting an item in the supplementary estimates or otherwise, to give them the increase to which we think they are entitled.


Mr.  A. A. C.@: LaRIVIERE (Provencher). Mr. Speaker, this question of the indemnity

which is allowed to the translators is not a new one, because I remember very well that for the last ten or twelve years, or since I have been a member of the Debates Committee, this same question has been brought to our attention. Though the committee felt they would be justified in recommending an Increase of salary to these gentlemen at a time, I may say, when the work performed by some of them was not satisfactory, the committee did not take action on account of a certain element that then was on the Board of Translators, and on account of the dissatisfaction which they had created by the work they were performing. The whole board, I may say, has since been reorganized. We have now men who are perfectly qualified to do the work, who do the work and do it well. The fact of the matter is that for two or three years we have had a translation that is remarkably good and very acceptable to hon. members. The committee, having looked into the matter, have thought that now was the time to do justice to these gentlemen. What are they recommending 5 The committee are recommending that these gentlemen should be paid on an average the sum of $1,500. which is not beyond the maximum salary of a second class clerk. I believe that this House will be generous enough to pay these men, who are all men of high standing in literature, at least a salary equivalent to that of a second class clerk employed by the government or by this House. I believe, Sir, that though this may appear to be a pretty stiff increase, the committee has thought proper to fix at once such an indemnity to be given to these gentlemen as that they would not come back next year or the year after for a further increase. We want to settle the question for once and for all, and I think we have done so. I hope that the government and the House will approve of the work of the committee and adopt the report which is now placed before them.


Mr. FLINT.: May I ask the hon. member for Wright (Mr. Champagne) if this is tile unanimous report of the committee ?


Mr. CHAMPAGNE.: Yes.


Mr. E. F. CLARKE (West Toronto).: Mr. Speaker, I can corroborate the statement made by the hon. chairman of the Debates Committee (Mr. Champagne) that it was the unanimous opinion of the committee, in view of the quality of the work that is now being done by these gentlemen, that an increase should be made in their remuneration. Those who are competent to speak upon the subject say that the work is being better done now than ever before, and more promptly as well, and in view of what has been said by the hon. gentlemen who have just spoken and of the opinion that has prevailed for many years on the part of the committee that these gentlemen are Mr. LaRIVIERE.
not paid an adequate remuneration for the work they perform, I think it would be very reasonable to make the increase which the committee have asked the House to make. I hope hon. gentlemen will see their way clear to support this report recommending an increase in the remuneration of these gentlemen.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter which is more in the hands of the House than it is in the hands of the government. The House has thought proper, and with good reason, to keep in its own hands everything in connection with the reporting of the debates of the House. The reporting is not done under the supervision of the government; it is done directly under the supervision of the House through a committee which is appointed every year for that purpose. The government have no wish to offer any opposition to this recommendation, but the government will be bound to consider carefully the report of the House and give it the proper authority. I may say, personally for myself, as a member of this House, that the present committee which has undertaken for a number of years back to supervise the debates of the House, has done it in a manner that has reflected great credit upon itself. The translation of the debates some years ago was very inadequate, but the committee has adopted a new system altogether, by introducing the competitive system into the appointments. Appointments are not made now for political reasons. They are just made upon merit. Whenever a vacancy occurs applicants are called upon by the committee to pass an examination, and the most successful competitor gets the reward.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Hear, hear.


The PRIME MINISTER.: This has done a great deal to improve the translation of the debates. I remember that some years ago it was an annual complaint on the part of the French members that they could not get their reports, and that when they came they were not only late but they came in a very imperfect manner. This year I have not heard a single word of complaint and not only have I not heard any complaint, but there could not be a word of complaint, because, from my own personal knowledge of the translation, it is very well done. I do not think that it could be better done in the short space of time which the staff has to do it in. They are keeping to the point and they are now doing the work in time. They are never behind. For all these considerations, for my part, I would be very glad to favour the adoption of the report. I may say, however, that I am afraid we could not give for this session the desired increase. We are, as we hope, within a few days of prorogation, the estimates are all prepared and

in the hands of the printer to be introduced here at a very early date and it would be extremely awkward and perhaps would retard the blessed day of prorogation if we were to reopen them for this question. With this suggestion and with these observations, I have no objection that the report should be adopted.
Motion agreed to.



FIRST READING.

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Bill (No. 161) respecting the incorporation of Joint Stock Companies by letters patent.- Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

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The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 162) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900.
Mr. BOYD.: I would like the hon. gentleman to give us an explanation in regal'd to the changes.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: The Bill is simply intended to bring the funds under the control of the department. We have had a good deal of trouble hitherto owing to there being a deficiency in the funds. Various demands have been made on the consolidated revenue fund to make good the accounts in connection with the working of the Act.
I do not think that will occur again under the present regulations. The money will go into the consolidated revenue fund and be distributed in the ordinary way. That is the only provision that I have introduced, hut there will be certain amendments, of which due notice will be given, of a more important character brought up when the Bill takes its second reading. At the present, I am merely introducing the Bill that is printed and of which notice is given.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. T. G. RODDICIC (Montreal, St. Antoine).: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I should like to ask my right hon. friend, the First Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) whether he has any announcement to make to the House in reference to the further consideration of Bill (No. 11) for the establishment of a medical council in Canada. It will he remembered that this Bill was withheld after passing through the committee stage^ with the exception of one clause, at the distinct request of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister. I am very anxious if possible to proceed with the Bill now, because I
understand that if it does not reach the Senate to-day or at the latest to-morrow, it will be impossible to have it become law during the present session.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I am most anxious to oblige my hon. friend (Mr. Roddick) and I will try to give him an opportunity of moving his Bill to-morrow, in the [DOT] evening. I hope the business of the House will be such as to warrant it, and if both sides desire it of course I shall raise no objection.



THE COASTING TRADE.

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House went into committee on the following resolution
. That it is expedient to amend the law respecting the coasting trade of Canada, and to exclude a foreign-built British ship from that trade unless it has obtained a license, which the Minister of Customs may grant, upon the payment of a duty of twenty-five (25; per cent ad valorem on the fair market value of the ship.
The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. W:m. Paterson).: This is an amendment to the law by which a foreign-built ship that is going to engage in the coasting trade of Canada shall have to make! application for a license, which will he granted upon payment of 25 per cent of the value of the vessel.
Resolution reported.



GENERAL INSPECTION ACT AMENDMENT.

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Bill (No. 142) further to amend the General Inspecton Act (the Minister of Trade and Commerce) ; read the second time ; considered in Committee ; reported ; read the third time and passed.

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Bill (No. 141) to amend the Act respecting the sale of 'certain staple commodities (the Minister of Trade and Commerce), read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
Mr. TAYLOR.: Quite a number of dealers hold stocks of this article for two or three years, and of course the twine they have on hand cannot be stamped under the provisions of this Bill. It would be well to have a saving clause so that dealers will not be penalized under this Act for selling stock which they have on hand.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: That is perhaps a good suggestion.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND I FISHERIES.: I agree with my hon. friend

(Mr. Taylor) that dealers who are innocent of any wrong-doing should not be punished under this Act There should be a provision so that it would not apply to the stock of twine on hand.


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: It does not do to draft these amendments hurriedly, and so I will defer It until the next sitting of the House.


George Taylor: Very well.
Progress reported.



MOUNTED POLICE ACT AMENDMENT.

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Bill (No. 147) to amend the Mounted Police Act, 1894 (the Prime Minister) read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.

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House in Committee of Supply.
Indians, British Columbia-Medical attendance and medicines (Governor General's warrant), $12,000.
['I hope, if we sit a little longer, to be able to lay on the Table further supplementary estimates. Perhaps, we might take concurrence and so advance the business. If a desire is expressed to have any item held over, of course, there will toe no objection.\nSome resolutions reported.']
The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: This was due to an outbreak of small-pox.
North-west Mounted Police, $100,000.


Mr. WILSON.: There ought to be an explanation of this additional estimate.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier). The appropriation last year for the North-west Mounted Police was something like $400,000 or $450,000. This is an appropriation for 500 men at $800 a year. We were not able last year to keep within the appropriation, and this was due to two causes. First, we were obliged to increase the number of stations, as we have a very much larger area than before to police. We have 86 police stations, distributed all over the territories, as compared with 83 in previous years. The largest number of stations are on the boundary between the territories and Montana and Dakota, where we have to keep a larger force on account of the increasing communications between the two sides. Then, in the Macleod district, where there are large ranches, we have a very large force, which we have not been able to decrease. There are also several Indian reserves in this district which require constant supervision. Then we had to put up a new station at the eastern boundary adjoining Manitoba, where railway construction is now going on. We have also to keep up a large number of stations north of the Saskatchewan towards the Mackenzie river. Great Slave Lake Is the station furthest north, and probably we will require a new station at the mouth of the Mackenzie. We are covering the whole of the territories, which causes larger expenditure in


Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND (Oxford).: travelling expenses, as we have to keep our men continually on the move. At Regina we have about 60 men, at some points ten men, at other five, and at the majority of stations one or two men. These men have to be kept moving all the time. If we could keep the men always at the same stations, the expenditure would be very much decreased, but in order to properly police the territories, and keep the force well disciplined, the men have to be constantly on the move. Another cause of increased expenditure is the changes in the force necessitated by the drafts on it to supply men for Africa. The force has proved the best nucleus for the different contingents that went to that country. The material of the force is not better than that obtained elsewhere, but the men have the advantage of expei'ience, and of being accustomed to the use of horses and being able to shift for themselves under all circumstances. For the last three years we have been depleting the force on this account and taking in raw recruits, who had to be instructed, and could not give as good service as the veterans. This has obliged ns to keep up a system of recruiting, and a system of moving the men about more than would otherwise have been necessary.
Department 'of the Interior-contingencies- printing and stationery, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The department sent its deputy to England in connection with immigration, and he found it necessary to expend $35,000 for printing and advertising. On account of the considerably larger number this year than usual of immigrants from the United States and foreign countries, we have to spend $10,000 more in various items than we did last year. It will take about $10,000 to cover the additional expenditure.
Mr, WILSON. Would the hon. Minister give the statement I asked for, showing the salaries of the immigration agents in Great Britain and Ireland, the United States, and on the continent ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: The following is the list:
United States-
M. V. Mclnnes, agent, Detroit	$1,800
F. S. Longworth, clerk, Detroit	 '750
O. A. Laurier, agent, Michigan	 3,200
Benj. Davies, agenit,	St.	Paul	 1,500


Miss   M.@: Dass, clerk,	St.	Paul	
'600Chas. Pilling, agent,	St.	Paul	
1,200E. T. Holmes, agent,	Indiana	
1,200C. O. Swanson, agenit, Eastern States ..	l'500T. O. Currie, agent, Wisconsin	
1,200J. M. MacLachlan, agent, Wisconsin.. ..	900Jos. Young, agent, Ohio	
1200las. Grieve, agent, Michigan	
1,500J. S. Crawford, .agent, Missouri	
'900W. H. Rogers, agent, South Dakota.. ..	1,200W. V. Bennetit, agent, Nebraska	
L200J. C. Duncan, agent, Nebraska	
'900
C. J. Broughton', agent, Chicago	$	900
W. J. White, inspector, &c	 2,200
R.	A. Burriss, agent, Port Arthur	 1,200
Alex. Ribout, agent, Mattawa	 900


Miss   M.@: Blais, repatriation agent		600


Rev.  H. L.@: 
Mr WILSON.: Perhaps the minister would tell us on what principle he grades the salaries. He is paying men all the way from $500 to $3,000 a year, and he ought to he able to explain how he arrives at the amount in each case.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They are supposed to be paid according to their capacity and ability to do the work. If salaries are raised it is because of satisfactory and efficient service, just as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) would raise the salary of an efficient man who was working for him.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think that is a very satisfactory explanation. Mr. Devlin, for instance, is only an ordinary immigration agent in Ireland-at least, that is the statement made in this House and to tne committee ; yet he is paid $3,000 a year. Yet, Mr. Preston, who has charge of the whole business over there, is only getting the same salary. The deputy minister, who is at the head of the whole department, only gets $200 a year more than Mr. Devlin, while the superintendant of immigration gets $500 less. It does seem to me there ought to be some explanation why a man who is given a small territory should be thus singled out. I recollect very well the minister's speech when this was up before the House on a former occasion, when he spoke of Mr. Devlin's great ability. But if this officer is such an able man, surely the minister ought to give him something else to do than to fill the place of immigration agent in a small territory, from which, as I am reminded by an hon. friend near me, he secures but few immigrants anyway. The expenditure on the service _ in Ireland was about $18,000, and, according to Mr. Devlin's own report, the immigrants he and his fellow agents secured from Ireland numbered only 953. I must say that the explanation is not at all satisfactory.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, The hon. gentleman has several times asked me the same question, and I have given him about the same answer. It has not been satisfactory to him, apparently, in the past, so I can hardly say I am much disappointed that he Is not wholly pleased now. I do not think the hon. gentleman can get a man of Mr. Devlin's ability and capacity to give his services


Uriah Wilson: Will the minister excuse me if I interrupt him ? Why then does he not give Mr. Devlin a position where he can display his abilities, and earn the salary that he is giving him, instead of putting him in an out of the way place


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We put him where we think he can do the best work.
Mr. FARy UHARSON. I attended the meeting of the committee, and heard the report of the deputy minister in connection with immigration. And, as a new member of the House, I was very much pleased with the arrangements made for England, Ireland and Scotland, as explained by the deputy minister. As our effort is to settle a new country, much depends upon our immigration policy, and the way it is carried out. We find that, in some cases, immigrants make a great deal of trouble, because they are not the right kind of people for us. It is an old saying that an empty house is better than a bad tenant, and I think I would rather have our land unoccupied than to have it settled by some classes of immigrants. The work of the department, as far as I can judge, is well done. There is a great deal of work ahead for the men engaged in this service, and the future of Canada depends in no small measure on the way that work is done.


Uriah Wilson: Mr. Devlin is described by the minister as a very clever man and an efficient officer. It seems a little strange to me that before tne deputy minister went to England to rearrange the whole system, he gave Mr. Devlin two months' leave of absence,-the result being that when the deputy minister was in England Mr. Devlin was in Canada. If Mr. Devlin is so able a man as he is represented to be, surely it would he greatly to the advantage of the service for the deputy minister to meet him, talk matters over with him, and get his nelp in making arrangements for the future. Strange to say, the officials of this government are very anxious to have the whole Atlantic between Mr. Devlin and themselves.
Geological Survey-To provide for the salary of a geologist to accompany tile International Boundary Survey from July 1, 1901, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are surveying the boundary line between the province of British Columbia and

the United States. This necessitates the sending out of an expensively equipped party. We save a good deal of money by geological examination at the same time. We send a geologist along with the boundary survey party, instead of later on sending a geologist with a party of his own. I have secured the services of a very competent man, Mr. Daly, who is a Canadian by birth, but has been connected with Harvard University.


Uriah Wilson: Has he been employed since the 1st July, 1901 ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He has been employed since last season. He was paid out of the Geological Survey vote last year.


Uriah Wilson: I have known Dr. Daly for a long time-in fact, I think he was born in our town. He has taken a very high position at college, and is a worthy man, and I have no doubt he will make a most efficient officer. I am delighted to think that our young Canadians are employed in the high places in our own government departments.
Government of the North-west Territories- additional amount required for registrars, $1,000.


George Taylor: Please explain.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The amount of work in the registry office in the North-west Territories is increasing very rapidly, owing to the improvement in settlement and the general increase in the number of transfers, and the registration of patents. An inspection was made by an officer of the department some time ago, and it was found the work was falling behind, and we had to employ some temporary assistance. Although we shall have to increase the staff considerably, it does not involve any additional burden upon the exchequer, because there are increased profits, and in proportion as the work increases the profits increase.
Additional granit for schools, clerical assistance, printing, &c., for the half year from January 1 to June 30, 1902, $50,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That $50,000 is a subsidy to the North-west Territories. Hon. gentlemen will remember that we had quite a lengthy debate in Committee of Supply during this session upon the subject of the financial requirements of the NortE-west Territories. I think the sense of the committee generally on both sides of the House was that something further should be done than had theretofore been contemplated by the government. The information furnished us is to the effect that the North-west government, perhaps unwisely, have to a considerable extent anti- 1


Hon. Mr. SIFTON.: cipated their revenue for the present six months, and that they will be seriously embarrassed in carrying on their business if they do not get some relief for the first six months of this year. The money voted in the main estimates as a subsidy for tlie North-west Territories only becomes available on the 1st of July. But their fiscal year corresponds with the calendar year, and therefore the increase in the subsidies which we are voting them will not take effect practically until the middle of this year, and will not be available for the whole of this year. We have thought it well to make it effective for the whole of the calendar year by voting one-half >the amount in the supplementary estimates for the current fiscal year, which will apply to the six months between tbe 1st of January and tbe 1st of July.


Uriah Wilson: Do you hand this money over to the North-west government ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, just the same as a subsidy, and they deal with it themselves.
Dominion Lands-chargeable to capital -further amount required for surveys, $80,000.


Nathaniel Boyd: There is a question or two I wish to discuss with the minister, and they can come under this head I think. I would like to know if it is the intention of the governmjenlt to pay over certain moneys to the provincial government of Manitoba, certain accrued interests, and if it will be necessary to introduce legislation in order to do that ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, i am not in a position to say positively. I know it has been decided to pay the money over, and I think the Department of Justice is considering whether legislation is required. I can see the Minister of Justice and give an answer this afternoon.


Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).: I understand a deputation waited on the minister when he was in Winnipeg, and lie promised to pay this interest ; but I think lie also told them that legislation would be necessary.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is quite true ; I remember saying on different occasions that legislation might be necessary, and my recollection is that the question was referred to the Department of Justice.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I think I can satisfy my hon. friend about tills. The matter is in the hands of the Department of Justice at this moment. I understand their opinion is that it is simply a matter of book-keeping ; it is not money of this country, it is money that belongs to the province of Manitoba.


William James Roche: 
Tlie PIUME MINISTER.: I have no final report, but that is my impression now. At all events, the matter has not been forgotten, we are dealing with it.


Nathaniel Boyd: There is another question in regard to the sale of school lands that took place some time ago in Manitoba. I would like to know if the minister could tell me how many of those sales he has cancelled ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is not a question which I can answer now. But there is no difficulty about ascertaining the number of sales cancelled, the names and the parcels of land referred to, and I can give the information to-moi'row.


Nathaniel Boyd: There is a certain sale 1 wish to discuss with the minister, that is the sale of the North-west quarter of section 11, 8-14 west. Has the minister any information regarding that particular sale to show whether a man named Thornbury gets that land ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I could not answer a question like that without looking at the records. I can tell the hon. gentleman this afternoon.


Nathaniel Boyd: We will drop that for the present. Then there is another question regarding the interest on the sales of school lands, which interest was lowered from 6 per cent to 5 per cent. Now, as we understand it in Manitoba, and as the Premier has said, the money, or the land either for that matter, does not belong to this government, they are merely acting as trustees. Well, those lands have been sold in the past, and on the last sale that took place it was advertised that the interest should be 6 per cent. By an Act passed last session that interest was lowered to 5 per cent. The Minister of the Interior, in his speech last session, said that the interest on Dominion lands should be lowered to 5 per cent. Well, the school lands are not looked upon as Dominion lands, and when the minister made that statement in the House last session it was not understood that it was to affect the sale of school lands. The effect of that arrangement is to take $25,000 a year out of the funds of the province of Manitoba ; and the effect on the last sale has been that the men who bought those lands expecting to have to pay 6 per cent find that, by the generosity of this government, they only have to pay 5 per cent. I think that the government of Manitoba and those of the people who are not benefited feel that they are losing to that extent. If those people who bought the land were aware that this was to take effect and that they were to he affected benefically by it they certainly had information that enabled them to pay higher prices for the land than
others who were under the impression, that, according to the advertisement, the rate of interest was going to be 6 per cent.


The PRIME MINISTER.: 
William James Roche: The right hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) has admitted that the Dominion government are only acting as trustees for the Manitoba government so far as school lands are concerned. In that case I think it would have been only proper and fair to have consulted

the provincial authorities as to the reduction in the rate of interest when they were acting" as trustees. The Dominion government have reduced the rate of interest without consulting the local authorities in Manitoba. These school lands do not belong to the Dominion government, they are simply acting as trustees and I think it would only have been proper to have consulted the local1 legislature as to the reduction in the rate of interest. From one point of view what the right hon. gentleman says may be correct. If it is the settler who derives the benefit there would not 'be very much objection, but that is a disputed point, because, at any sales of school lands, speculators have been the purchasers and they have derived the benefit. If we were assured that the settlers would derive the benefit of the reduction in the rate of interest we would not Object, but these speculators have purchased the lands and they have derived the benefit. We would not object so much to the reduction of interest in the interest of the settler, but so far as making the reduction was concerned, I think it was not fair to include sales that had already taken place because the purchasers bought under certain terms knowing that they would have to pay 6 per cent. We object to an Act of parliament being made to apply to past sales and we also say that the provincial authorities should have been consulted before any reduction in the rate of interest was made as this reduction entails a loss of $25,000 per annum to the province.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The statement was made by the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Roche), and it certainly has been made in criticising this transaction in other places, that the beneficiaries of the change in the rate of interest were the speculators who purchased the land. There is absolutely no foundation for that statement. I have at this moment figures in my possession which prove that practically all the land that was affected, almost all with the most trifling exceptions, was purchased by actual settlers, men who live either on the adjoining land or in the neighborhood of such land, so that the reduction in the rate of interest has enured, practically, almost without exception, to the benefit^ of actual farmers and settlers in the neighbourhood. I need only say one word as to the question of what the Obligation of the government is. I have always taken the position that the province ought to benefit as largely as possible by this fund.
I have always taken a strong position in that respect. I very cordially favour the province deriving the largest possible benefit from the fund. In regard to the money we were discussing a moment ago, that is the interest accruing on the deferred payments, I very cordially favour that accruing to the province to the greatest possible extent. But, it must be remembered that this government have been


William James Roche: charged with a duty in connection with the management of this fund. The province is not responsible in any way. W e are responsible for the rate of interest charged against the people who purchase the land, and for my part, I think, in view of the general reduction in the rate of interest all over the country, a reduction from 6 to 5 per cent, it would have been quite indefensible, it would have been taking a position! quite impossible to satisfactorily explain or defend, if we had still required persons who are owing us in connection with these sales, to have paid 6 per cent. I am quite satisfied, speaking as the head of the department, that the result simply would have been that there would have been an interminable correspondence with persons who had purchased that land making claims for refunds on the ground that they had not been fairly treated, with the result that somebody ultimately would have had to have given way. I felt that the question should be considered. I think the change will prove a benefit to the provincial government in the long run. I believe the reduction will produce more money because the principal money will 'be larger by reason of increased sales and this will more than counterbalance any reduction in the rate of interest. Whether that is so or not, I think my hon. friend (Mr. Roche) will agree with me that the action of the government in reducing the rate of interest from 6 to 5 per cent has been worth a great deal of money to the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories in view of the general effect it lias had in the reduction of interest, because, as the hon. gentleman knows, the amount payable in interest by the people of the west is a very heavy charge.
Allowance to L. E. Fontaine for injuries sustained In the discharge of his duty $1,654.75.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This man was accidentally shot through his tent by one of the hands in connection with a party and we have allowed him his pay for the portion of the season when he was unable to perform his duty on account of being disabled.
To provide for a gratuity to the widow and family of the late Nathan White, accidentally killed by a government employee when on duty in 1892, $750.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is a case that was brought before me four or five times and I finally came to the conclusion that it ought to be dealt with-the case of a man who was shot by an officer of the geological survey. He was sent out by the department to make collections, and he hired Nathan White to convey him from place to place, and when the officer was getting out of the rig his pistol went off and White was instantly killed. The matter was brought before me

a number of times and perhaps I did not understand it as fully as I should. However, it was insisted upon and I became convinced that this amount would not be too much.


George Taylor: Under the circumstances the amount is quite too small for the loss of a husband and father.
Relief of destitute settlers in Saskatchewan, $5,000.


Uriah Wilson: Please explain this.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: A flood occurred a year ago at Isle of the Cross in the northern portion of the territory. One of our inspectors whom we sent there reported that owing to the flood the settlers had been driven from their homes, their crops destroyed, and they were in the greatest possible distress. To save them from starvation our officer made an arrangement with the Hudson Bay Company to give them such provisions as were absolutely necessary. We have not got the bill but we expect that it will be about this amount.


Uriah Wilson: What kind of settlers were they V


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Half-breeds.


Uriah Wilson: I do not think that any one can object to the vote under the circumstances.
Relief of destitute miners, Dease and Liard *rivers, $4,364.23.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is the balance which we think is properly due to the Hudson Bay Company. The company claimed a good deal more and I referred their claim to Mr. Stevenson, inspector of Dominion lands, who is a good accountant, and to the deputy minister, and they reported that this sum should pay the balance due. The company was not satisfied and they have taken the matter to court.


Uriah Wilson: How much was paid ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They claimed $10,000 more, but I could not admit it in the face of the report of my officers. If they prove it in court of course we will have to pay it.


William James Roche: I would like to know from the minister what quantity of swannp lands lias been examined by his officers ; the number of acres that are due the provincial government, and the number of acres that have been handed over already ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will get that information in the morning.
Excise, $7,000.


Nathaniel Boyd: I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Inland Revenue to the importance of doing something with reference to the weighing of grain coming from the threshing machine. This is a matter which is of much greater importance than the department seems to think, and I just wish to refer to a case which occurred in court on account of this. This clipping is from the ' North-west Farmer.'
At Nepawa the other day, John H. Howard sued T. Poole and John Dueklow, for Lis threshing bill. Both of them set up the usual defence that the grain was not measured In accordance with the Dominion statutes, and therefore they could get from under their obligation to pay for the work. This defence of course blocked the court from dealing with the case on its (merits, and the plaintiff was nonsuited.
As I have mentioned to the House before, it is altogether impossible to deal with these threshing machines and measure the grain according to the standard prescribed by the department. You could scarcely put enough men with bushel measures around one of these threshing machines, which put out from 2,000 to 3,000 bushels in a day, to measure the grain. These machines are provided with automatic measuring appliances, and I think the government should instruct their officers to use these before the next crop is threshed, so that this injustice may be removed. It does not matter what bargain a man may make with the owner of a threshing machine, all he has to do is to fall back on the plea that the grain was not weighed according to the Dominion statutes, and refuse to pay. Here are two men who avoided payment iu this way, although they understood perfectly the system and the bargain that was made with them. It is a great injustice, and it will be a great hindrance to the country if we have to go back to the primitive style of handling grain by means of the ordinary bushel measure.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Some years ago oue of our inspectors was instructed to inspect one of these weighing machines, and it was found to be so imperfect that he would not certify to its results ; but recently I have received information that within a short time a proper scale will be perfected, for attachment to weighing machines, and will he ready for use next season. Some weeks ago a manufacturer of these weighing machines was in the department, and from the way he spoke, and from information which we have received from our own officers in Winnipeg, we are in a position to state that within a few months, or before next session opens, that difficulty will be remedied.


William James Roche: The last time I had a conversation with the hon. minister



lie mentioned that an officer of his in Winnipeg was coming to Ottawa with a new machine. Has he arrived yet ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Not yet. We expect him within the next week or two. He says that the weighing machine, to the best of his belief, is perfect, and will be ready to be attached to threshing machines within a few months.
Militia-annual drill and musketry, -including clothing and stores ; further amount required $200,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENDS.: This is the usual vote for drill for the balance of the current year. It is the custom to divide the vote into two parts-$275,000 in the main estimates and $125,000 in the supplementaries. Then, there is a supplementary vote for clothing and a supplementary vote for stores. This year I have put the three votes together in order to afford a little more elasticity, so that if a smaller amount happens to be used for annual drill, a larger amount will be available for clothing and stores, as we are endeavouring to increase our supplies of clothing and stores in order to establish a reserve. Now that we have a large store building completed iu Ottawa, it is very desirable that we should have a larger reserve than we have. This vote of $200,000 is less than the amounts voted for similar purposes last year.


Uriah Wilson: Can the hon. minister state what portion of this is for clothing and what portion for drill ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: $125,000 is the usual amount for drill, and about $75,000 is for clothing and stores, but I do not wish it to be understood that all of the vote for annual drill will be used. If not, the balance may be used for clothing and stores.
Militia-salaries and wages ; further amount required, $14,000.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND I)E FENCE. This sum is required on account of the increased wages paid. Most of the men who have been getting $1 a day now get $1.25 or $1.50. We could not retain them without increasing their pay.


Uriah Wilson: What is their business '!


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Taking care of the stores, rifle ranges, drill halls, &c., all over the country. During the current year we have appointed a man at London to take care of the rifle range, a man at Brockville to take care of the drill hall, a man at St. John to take care of the rifle range, a man at Springhill to take care of the armoury, and a man at Kentville to take care of the armoury.


William James Roche: 


Uriah Wilson: Do you have men employed by the year to take care of armouries ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Uriah Wilson: You do not pay officers for that ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Some retired officers have been given places of that kind, but officers in the active militia are not supposed to do work of that kind. It is generally given to a sergeant or some man who has served a long time in the militia.


Uriah Wilson: This is just taking care of the rifles.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Rifles, armouries, rifle ranges and stores.


Uriah Wilson: I thought that in our district we gave them to the captain of the company.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The old system in the country districts was to give each captain $40 for taking care of the arms, and he found a place to keep them and paid a man for cleaning them. But this is a different thing. Where there is a central armoury, a man has to be employed.


George Taylor: Is it the intention to hold the camps in June this year ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am not quite sure that all the camps will be held then. The cavalry and field artillery will be drilled this year to their full strength in June, and of course the drill in the cities will go on as before, and a considerable portion of this money will go for this purpose.
Military properties, including $25,000 for walls at. Quebec-further amount required, $50,309.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The estimate I have here for the fortification walls at Quebec is $23,111, and other expenditures at Kingston, $1,650. The expenditure at Charlottetown for fitting up the garrison artillery building is $546. Repairs to the port of Annapolis, N.S.,	$234.	Toronto annex to
drill hall, $300. Alterations of drill hall, $300. Fitting up field hospital, battery corps and artillery, $200. Winnipeg, urgent plumbing, $200. Montreal drill hall, $2,000. Fitting up armoury, $2,000. To complete rifle range, $9,000. Ottawa rifle range, $2,000.
Contingencies-further amount required, $4.500.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is simply to reimburse

the department for the amount paid over to the troops in connection with the Yal-le.vfield riots. Proceedings were taken to collect that money from the town, but in the meantime the men had to be paid and were paid out of contingencies. There was no other way of paying them.


Uriah Wilson: From whom are you trying to collect the money ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: From the town.


Uriah Wilson: Pretty hard on the town.
Royal Military College-further amount required, $10,580.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is for the Installation of an electric light plant which will result in a saving of $1,310. The present annual cost of lighting the college is $2,100. The light is purchased from the town. When this light is installed, the annual cost will be $1,051, considerably less than half the present cost.


Uriah Wilson: Did you try to make an arrangement with the town V


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, and could not succeed.
Dominion Arsenal-further amount required, $31,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is to cover the cost of repairs to batteries returned from Soutli Africa, and of repairs to other artillery and other expenses. It includes also the cost of manufacturing one million rounds of gallery practice cartridges, $5,000, and the installation of an electric light at Quebec cartridge factory, $1,750. It was thought advisable that during alteration and repairs an independent plant should be installed.
Defence of Esquimau-further amount required. $4,867.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is in accord with the arrangement made with the imperial government.


George Taylor: Was it not agreed that Canada should pay a fixed sum and was not that amount asked in the last estimate ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There was some question as to whether this amount should be paid by us or not. We took the view that it should not. but after negotiations and correspondence with tlie War Office it was decided that we should pay this amount. This really covers the amount for two years. Two thousand four hundred dollars is the amount. There is no question of our liability to pay it.


George Taylor: Was not the understanding for a fixed amount, and did not the minister ask last year for a fixed sum ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: In addition to that there was the maintenance of works, &c., which we thought was included in the amount assured by us, but it appeared on further investigation that the cost of maintenance was not included, and this is an estimate to cover that.
Medals, $8,000.


George Taylor: What class of medals ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is for the colonial auxiliary force long service medal and the long service decoration now being distributed.
/ l'lowance of family of Major Hurd-nan during his services in South Africa, $779.64.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Under the law by which the $2,000,000 were granted for the contingents in South Africa, there was a provision to pay the wives of the officers serving there half pay. Major Hurdman's wife, unfortunately, died shortly before {hat. and the family did not get the benefit. Under the law, the Justice Department has informed me. we could not pay the amount. It seems only fair that this should be paid.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
Committee resumed at three o'clock.
Militia-chargeable to income-towards the expenses of the contingent of Canadian militia attending the Coronation of His Majesty, $30,-
000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The total estimated expense of this contingent is $80,000. We are asking for $30,000 to be expended in the current year ending 1st July next, and, in the supplementary estimates for next year, which are to be brought down in a day or two. there will be an item for $50,000. The estimate is made up in this way: A contract has been made with the Allans to convey the contingent from Quebec to Liverpool and back, at $50 each for the men and $120 each for the officers. There will be 580 men and 22 officers. The transportation across the ocean will cost, therefore, in round numbers, $30,000. Railway transportation to Quebec, the point at which the force will be mobilized, together with subsistence in transit, is expected to cost $15,000. Pay for 45 days is estimated at $17,000. As for clothing, of course the ordinary militia clothing will be used, but, in some cases we shall need to make alterations and also to issue new clothing. The cost of this is estimated at $10,000. Contingencies will take about $8,000. These items make a total of $80,000. I may say that the JubiJee

Contingent cost $30,000. It was made up of something over 200 officers and men. In this case, there will be a little over 600 , officers and men.


Mr. SPROULE.: How is the contingent to be composed ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The contingent has not been made up yet, but I think I can give pretty full information on that point. In the first place, there will be 300 mounted men and 280 infantry. The mounted body will be made up of 25 men from the North-west Mounted Police, 25 from Strathcona's Horse, and the balance from the cavalry, mounted rifles and field artillery. The infantry will be made up from the different branches of infantry and the garrison artillery, the infantry being composed of guards, fusiliers, highlanders and rifles. In addition to this we shall endeavour to have every branch of the service represented. There will be a representation of the bearer companies, the field hospital corps, the engineers and the new branch of the service, the army service corps, which has recently been organized.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What proportion of these men will be drawn from each province, and how will they be taken ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: They will be taken from each unit. The average number from the infantry is exactly one and three-quarters from each regiment. This will mean, of course, that the larger regiments will send two men each and the smaller regiments one man each. The squadrons of cavalry will get, I think, four men each, because the number of mounted men is larger in proportion than the number of infantry.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Who will select the men?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The men will be selected by the district officer commanding in each district.


Mr. BELL.: What officers are sent ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There will be one lieutenant-colonel, two majors, one adjutant and also three officers for each 100 men, that is, eighteen besides the four I have mentioned, or twenty-two officers in all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where will the contingent mobilize, and how long before sailing?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The date of sailing is the 7th of June, by steamship ' Parisian,' from Quebec. The force wil be mobilized at Quebec about the 29th or 30th of May.


George Taylor: What pay are the officers and meni to receive ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The regular pay of the militia.


Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).: 


John William Bell: Horw do you provide horses for the mounted men ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The War Office provides all the horses, 300, together with the artillery, guns and everything. The Militia Department provides clothing, equipment and pay.
Department of Justice-contingencies

sundries-, $500.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This $500 under the head of sundries is to provide for the travelling expenses incurred by the Minister of Justice and the deputy minister who were both in England last summer in connection with the conference about the Privy Council.
Department of Customs-contingencies-to pay H. L. Wood, customs officer, for extra work on trade and navigation- tables for fiscal year ended June 30, 1900, consequent on the re-arrangement of tho customs statistical service (228 hours, at 50 cents) notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $114.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. William Paterson).: Thisl is in addition to the salaries of officers who were doing extra work last year in preparing the annual report and the statistical report, and this name was accidentally omitted.
Supreme Court of Canada-allowances to ad hoc judges, $800.


Mr. CASGRAIN.: Do I understand that this is going to be paid ? I do not see how it can -be paid unless my hon. friend goes on with the Bill which provides for the appointment of assistant judges of the Supreme Court of Canada. I -call attention to the fact that there is a pressing necessity that this Bill should be passed this session. There are several cases, I understand, on the list of the -Supreme Court in which two of the judges are not competent to sit. They are cases in which the government is interested and upon which these gentlemen passed when they were ministers of the Crown. I would quote a case which is a precedent in these matters. Sir Alexander Laco-ste, Chief Justice of the Court of Appeals for Quebec, was appointed administrator of that province at a time when the late Lieutanant-Governor, Sir Adolphe Chapleau, was absent. An Order in Council came before him upon which were based contracts between parties and the government. When these contracts were before the courts, -or some of them, -and suits were taken upon them, Chief Justice Lacoste refused to sit, simply because, when he was administrator, he had signed an Order in Council upon which the contracts were based. It seems to me this is a precedent for cases of this kind in which the administrator had nothing to do but to sign his name as a ministerial act. When questions come u-p before the Supreme Court involving the validity or invalidity of con-

tracts, or damages upon contracts, which were before the administration when certain gentlemen sat in the council who are now judges of the Supreme Court, these gentlemen should not sit, and I understand they are loath to sit, that they do not want to sit. On the other hand, these are important cases, and it will be delaying the business of the court if they cannot sat. As I said, I think it is very pressing that this .Bill should be proceeded with. I quite understand the difficulty, and probably it is not quite proper that the Governor in Council should appoint substitutes or judges ad hoc. But I suggest that that difficulty could be got over in the province of Quebec, for instance, if the judgments under review were judgments that came from the Court of King's Bench, that the Chief Justice of the Superior Court should have the appointing power. If on the other hand, it was a case that came from the Superior Court sitting an review, then the appointing power should be the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. I believe the Minister of Justice appreciates the difficulty, and sees that judges of the Supreme Court and who are likely to be called upon to sit ou these cases, should not sit, and that some provision should be made for their being replaced.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I quite appreciate the force of all that has been said by my learned friend from Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain). I think it is extremely desirable that we should make provision for the difficulties that he has suggested. No doubt there may be some question arising as to whether some of the members of the Supreme Court should sit in cases before them. My hon. friend will bear in mind that this is a matter which is personal to the judges themselves ; it would be for the judge to say whether, under the circumstances, be felt that he ought not to sit in the oase. Far from having made up my mind not to press the Bill, on the contrary, the present intention is to press the Bill through during this session. In that view, of course, it is necessary to put this item in the estimates.
Further amount required for judges travelling allowances in Manitoba, $500.


William James Roche: I believe there is a vacancy at present on the bene,h of Manitoba caused by the elevation of Judge Prendengast to the Supreme Court bench of the North-west Territories. I think about six weeks ago the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. LaRiviere) asked the Minister of Justice if it was the intention of the government to fill that position, and the minister replied that it was the intention to fill that position forthwith. I would ask if the vacancy has been filled, and if not, is it the intention to have it filled at once ?	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, it is the intention to fill it in the immediate future.


William James Roche: Forthwith ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Practically. I want to 'wait until the session is over to be able to give the matter a little more consideration.
Further amount required for miscellaneous expeniditure including North-west Territorias, $6,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The expenditure from the vote of this year has been unusually large during the year owing principally to the following charges :
King vs. Frogg-Keewatin case-$2,894.76 ; King vs. Wabey, the Indian case which was tried over here in Hull, $1,166.25. The extradition case of Rosebluff and Pariseau, $1,247.04.


George Taylor: It was a good year for the lawyers.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: And a bad year for murderers. Increase in cost of maintenance of prisoners in the North-west Territories $2,500, and increase in witness and jury fees, $4,000.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: That is a great deal more than $6,000. Will the hon. gentleman tell me how he paid this amount with that amount of money ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The $6,000 simply implements the amount we had already at our disposal. Of course the $6,000 is only part of the amount that we spent.


John Graham Haggart: I understand that. I understand that the $6,000 has been spent already.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There has been a great deal more than $6,000 spent. This $6,000 is merely to implement the amount we have already at our disposal. The $6,000 we are now getting has not been spent.


John Graham Haggart: I understand that perfectly. The hon. minister had a grant for this purpose last year and he has over spent it by $6,000.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: No. I will have exceeded it at the end of the year by $6,000. We have to provide, in addition to the amount I have mentioned, for trials that have already taken place and we have to make provision for witness and jury fees in the North-west Territories which have been incurred to the extent of $4,000. These accounts have not yet been disposed of. Then, there is the maintenance of prisoners, $2,500. These are additional amounts to those which I have mentioned already.

Additional amount required lor witness and jury fees (Governor General's warrant, $12,000), $15,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In this case you have obtained money under Governor General's warrants.	.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Of the amount that is required, there will be taken $13,000 to cover the cost of the disbursements in the case of O'Brien, and there will be for law books, $1,500. Hon. gentlemen will remember having heard of this O'Brien case as one in which O'Brien was convicted of deliberately murdering three men on the trail between the frontier and Dawson city. He had built for himself a shack on the side of the road and he lay in wait for people passing up and down and in this way he succeeded in disposing of three men. The men disappeared in the month of December, 1000, and their bodies were not found until the spring of 1901. It took a very considerable time to get together the evidence necessary to bring the crime home and as a result the expenditures made by the officials were very great. For instance, there was paid in connection with the case for witness and jury fees, $13,233, stenographers fees, $284, and cost of the execution, $586. In addition to that the North-west mounted police were obliged to spend something like $22,000 on the case so that the case will cost the government something in the vicinity of $40,000. But, I think the money was well spent, because it goes to demonstrate the fact that within the limits of Canada, wherever a man may happen to be, life and property are safe and that murderers are invariably tracked and discovered.
Law books, $1,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do we supply a law library for the North-west Territories ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Not for the North-west Territories. We did until this year. So far as the North-west Territories are concerned, the library at Regina was turned over by a statute passed during this session to the Law Association of the North-west Territories proper. So far as the Yukon is concerned we supply law books for the purposes of the judges.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much did we vote for a library there already ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I cannot tell the hon. gentleman at present.
To provide for the salary of George W. Dawson, inspector of penitentiaries, from 6th to SOth June, 1902, both inclusive, at $2,600 per annum, $180.55.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How do you require this item in here. Does he not get a regular salary ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: He gets a regular salary but he was appointed on the 6th June, 1901.


Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.: 


John Graham Haggart: It must be 1901. This is a mistake in the item.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: His year of service will end on the 6th June, 1902. This is to pay for the broken period.


George Taylor: Would the hon. Minister of Justice say when Mr. Dawson was appointed ?	.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: On the' 6th June, 1901.


George Taylor: And this is a sum which was not paid him for the first part of the month ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The statute says that:
Tilt- salary of the second inspector hereby piovided for shall be for the first year of his service, $2,600, and thereafter such sum as parliament appropriates for the purpose.
We have to provide for the broken period of the year intervening between the next fiscal year and the end of the year of his appointment.


George Taylor: What are his duties ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: His duties are to assist in looking after the penitentiaries throughout the Dominion of Canada generally with Mr. Stewart.


George Taylor: Was not one inspector quite sufficient, or was this to provide a fillip for Mr. Dawson ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not think it was intended to provide a fillip for Mr. Dawson. From the year 1895 up to last year the inspector of penitentiaries had been so busily engaged here that it was not possible for him to visit the penitentiaries throughout the country. There has been no inspection for four or five years in the penitentiary in New Westminster. It is extremely desirable that the inspector should inspect; that is to say, that they should visit the penitentiaries throughout the country.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I presume this is in addition to his travelling allowance ? Could the hon. gentleman tell me what his travelling allowance amounts to for the year ? There is an arrangement, I presume, for travelling allowance ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: There is an arrangement for travelling allowance, but as to the amount which he has disbursed I cannot say. I have other estimates to come down for next year and I will then be prepared to tell my hon. friend what he has disbursed.
To pay the following persons for expenses connected with the Lussier arbitration : E. R. Cameron, $110 ; Miss H. E. Stewart, $5, $115.
' Hon. Mr. HAGGART. What arbitration was that ? I never heard of it.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This farmer lives in the vicinity of St. Vincent de Paul, and owing to a sewer which was constructed by us, his cattle were injured and killed and other damage done and he claimed $4,000. A petition of right was issued, but we thought the speediest way of disposing of the matter was to appoint an officer of the court, and Mr. Cameron, the Registrar of the Supreme Court, after malting inquiry, found that Mr. Lussier was entitled to $1,922, which included witness, fees, costs, damages and everything.
To pay J. E. Farewell, K.C., balance of costa as solicitor for Judge Dartnell, upon North Ontario recount, $36.91.


John Graham Haggart: How did this come in ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: This is in connection with the recount that took place in North Ontario in 1896. A recount was asked for before Judge Dartnell and an injunction was applied for in the High Court asking that he should not proceed with the recount. Judge Dartnell pleaded that he was acting as an officer of the House of Commons and that he could not be restrained by an injunction, which contention was upheld by Judge Robertson. The costs amounted to $66.37, and $29.46 were taxed against Judge Dartnell's side. Judge Dartnell holds that he was not obliged to pay his lawyer, because he was brought into court as an officer of this House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: My recollection is that there was some dispute as to which judge the recount should be before.


John Graham Haggart: Is it not a bad precedent to allow a judge cost for anything of this kind ? He has no right to appear by counsel.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think it is admitted that in all proceedings of this sort an inferior judge would be- entitled to counsel. I know that is the case so far as magistrates are concerned.


John Graham Haggart: This is the first time that I have ever heard of it in this House.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Let us hope it will be the last.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Judging by the history of the transaction, it would be well that it should be the last time, because this was a sort of political job throughout. The impression on the public is that it was a little smart Aleck trick for the purpose of holding a seat in this House.
Trent caral-To dredge shoals in Trent and Otonabee rivers, $3,500.


John Graham Haggart: Is this dredging done by contract or by the government ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We are doing it with our own dredge.
Contribution towards building of road between Lindsay and Fenelon Falls, $1,500.


John Graham Haggart: On what principle are you making this contribution ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The old road was flooded by the construction of the canal, and a new road has to be built above the water level, on the line of the old road. That is the recommendation of our engineers and the member representing that county was strongly of opinion that the work was necessary.


John Graham Haggart: On this item I drew the minister's attention to the Poon-amalee causeway in the township of Elm-si ey, which is ih a similar position. The principle under which the government makes these contributions is that if any government work causes a portion of a road to be overflowed, 'which would not be overflowed otherwise, the government makes good that portion.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have come to an understanding with the municipalities in such cases as the hon. gentleman mentions, and in other cases in which the raising of the water of the canal has rendered some bridges too short or unfit for use, we make a compromise with the municipalities and agree to bear a part of the cost.


John Graham Haggart: A petition was presented by the municipalities in the township of Elmsley asking for assistance for the repair of a highway which was in existence before the Rideau canal was built. They ask, and I think very fairly, that the government should grant assistance for the repair of the highway to the extent of the damage done by the government. I understand that the officers of the government have inquired into the matter and I want to know what the government intend to do.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I have not the papers, but I will get t-he information later.


Mr. KEMP.: Is it the intention of the government to complete the Trent canal so as to connect the Georgian bay with Lake Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have already under contract the stretch between Lake Simcoe and Balsam lake, but we have not at present concluded that we will carry the work beyond that.


Albert Edward Kemp: Can the minister say what it will cost to complete the canal through ' Tlie MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. Our engineers estimate that It

will cost about $0,500,000 to complete it from end to end. We have expended in round numbers about $3,500,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That gives what depth of water ?


The MINISTER OP RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Six feet.


Albert Edward Kemp: Is it the policy of the government to complete the work through from the Georgian bay to Lake Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have determined to complete the canal between Lake Simcoe and Balsam lake. The rest is practically completed or under contract. When all that is completed we will have one more contract to enter into and only one, that is, the contract for the hydraulic lift which we propose to place in that section. Beyond that we have not come to any conclusion.


Albert Edward Kemp: It will cost $3,000,000 to complete that portion of the work.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: About that.


Albert Edward Kemp: And the hon. gentleman is not prepared to say whether the government will go on and complete the canal ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I would not like to say one way or the other.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The work, if incomplete, must be of little value. It seems to me that It is too large an undertaking on which to go on spending money blindly, without deciding whether it is intended to finish it or not.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: To what extent we. will continue the work towards completion is a point not definitely passed on by the government, and it is quite impossible for me to make any precise statement on the subject. The northern division, the section from Lake Simcoe to Peterborough, will be the first to be completed. We are now working towards completion of the lock between Lake Simcoe and Lake Balsam, and I am in hopes that a moderate expenditure will give us clear navigation from Peterborough to Lake Balsam. The estimated cost of the whole section from Balsam Lake to Lake Simcoe is one million and a half dollars, and the engineer estimates that it will cost from Lake Simcoe to Georgian Bay $1,450,000 if the canal is extended.


Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: I hope there is no question about that.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I think probably there will not, but I cannot give a definite statement on my own responsibility.


Hon. Mr. BLAIR.: 


John Graham Haggart: The hon. minister is asking $300,000 to be expended this year. Will he apply any of that vote, if an Order in Council is passed, to pay Corry & Laverdure the $126,000 due them.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If this amount is due them, they will be paid, but I cannot say whether it will be out of the appropriation for the current year or for 1902-3.


Samuel Hughes: How much is [DOT]appropriated for this year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: $300,000 is all the revote for the year to come.


Samuel Hughes: There is only $300,000 to be spent on the work the coming year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: That is all.


Samuel Hughes: In other words only $300,000 is to be spent for the coming year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: That is all.


Samuel Hughes: Will the minister please give us some explanation ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I would be glad to furnish all possible information, but I can only state the fact that we do not expect in the coming year to spend more than $300,000. We would have made provision for large expenditure had we finished the hydraulic lift which we are going to place on that section and which is going to cost $350,000.


Samuel Hughes: That is the one at Kirkfield.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, that will be provided for another year.	[DOT]


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems extraordinary for the government to say they are going on with that work, a work which they themselves admit will cost a total of $6,500,000 when finished, of which only about $3,500,000 has been spent, and yet that they are not able to tell us whether they intend to finish the work or not. A work so gigantic as this, one would suppose, might be taken into consideration by the government with a view to reaching some businesslike conclusion with regard to it before coming to the House to ask for more money. If they are not going to finish it they should let us know, if they are going to finish it they should be able to speak definitely of their intentions and( of how they purpose to carry them out.


Mr. GERMAN.: In my opinion the money spent on this work is absolutely thrown away whether the canal is finished or not.

This is a legacy from the great Conservative party, and was started by them for the purpose apparently of enabling them to control the Midland constituencies, and it has controlled them ever since. The lift locks now under construction, which will cost about one million dollars each, were begun by the late government. Contracts, X believe were let by the late government for the construction of these locks. Any person who will go up and see these locks will get the impression that they are great baronial castles that are being built up there in the wilderness. The canal appears to me absolutely useless for a route for navigation or transportation. There will be only five feet of water on the mitre sill, and the boats that will carry through there the products of the west, if they ever do. will draw five feet of water and carry 5,000 bushels of wheat. It would take forty or fifty such boats to carry one cargo of a large upper lake steamer.


Samuel Hughes: Why does the hon. gentleman stop at fifty ? He might as well make himself absolutely ridiculous and say seventy.


William Manley German: I do not intend to make myself ridiculous, but I say it will take forty such boats to carry the cargo of one upper lake freighter. And if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes, Victoria) will consider the matter for a moment he will see that I am correct. An upper lake freighter carries 200,000 bushels of wheat. The canal barges which will use this canal will not carry more than 5,000 bushels.


Mr. BENNETT.: Nonsense.


William Manley German: All the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennett) has to do is to make the calculation. The locks on this Trent Valley canal system have a length of 130 feet, and a width of 33 feet, and they admit vessels with a draught of five feet. A calculation will show that the capacity of these barges will not exceed five or six thousand bushels, and the average will be five thousand. So, it will take forty such barges to carry the cargo of an upper lake freighter. If any one suggests that a canal with no greater capacity than that will be a benefit to the country, it will be hard for me to avoid doubting his sincerity. This canal should never have been begun, and I think the quicker the government stop spending money on it the better it will be for the country at large.


William Humphrey Bennett: The hon. gentleman (Mr. German) shall promptly have his few incoherent remarks reported in the Peterborough newspapers, for, at a single blow he has knocked his friend Hon. James Stratton to pieces. Does not the hon. gentleman know that Mr. Stratton's stock in trade in Ontario politics has been nothing but this Trent navigation system, plus a campaign
fund ? The hon. gentleman is talking the ordinary Ontario politics from his point of view. He has lived for years on the Welland canal and has seen, intermittently, an ordinary sized schooner drag its weary course through the canal. We, of course, do not wish to say anything about that canal, but when tiie hon. gentleman sees a rival to the Welland canal starting up, we hear from him as we have heard. It is not necessary for me to say anything in favour of the Trent Valley canal. It is an accepted fact and it is to be completed. The Minister of Railways and Canals has been over the route and has approved of it. But the hon. gentleman (Mr. German) should have been more kind to his friend the Hon. James Stratton at this intense time in his history, and should not have given him this blow below the belt.


William Manley German: Hon. James Stratton is quite well able to take care of himself regardless of any canal question. So far as the Welland canal is concerned, we have not the slightest jealousy-


Albert Edward Kemp: This will be a competitor, will it not ?


William Manley German: A competitor ? The ordinary mule is not the competitor of the race horse, and I think that furnishes about a fair comparison between this route and the Welland canal. The Welland canal admits boats carrying 70,000 or 80,000 bushels of grain, and it is rather amusing to find hon. gentlemen comparing with this the Trent Valley canal which will take vessels carrying not more than 6,000 bushels. I do not think any one need be at all alarmed at the competition of this route with the Welland canal.


William Humphrey Bennett: If the Welland canal is such a wonderful navigation route why is the government spending half a million dollars more in trying to blast the rocks from Port Colborne harbour so that an ordinary vessel can get in there ? The House must remember that the Trent Valley system is not a series of locks like the Welland canal, but a magnificient chain of lakes and rivers where there is free navigation. But the hon. gentleman has completely upset Mr. Stratton's stock in trade, and his remarks shall be duly reported in the Peterborough newspapers.


Samuel Hughes: I am surprised that the hon. member for Welland should make such an exhibition of himself. He is generally well informed on matters respecting this country, but the reference to any other navigation route than the ditch near which he lives seems to arouse his ill feeling. We do not wish to interfere with this ditch of his, we who have a magnificent chain of lakes, Lake Coucliiching, Lake Sim-coe, Balsam lake, Sturgeon lake and all the other great chain leading down to the

Bay of Quinte. The hon. gentleman Indulges In the comparison of a horse and a mule. Why, I understand that they employ boys to drag the several schooners and canoes that pass up and down through the Welland canal. Ours is not a canal, but a chain of lakes which vessels can navigate with a full head of steam. But in the ditch of which the hon. gentleman speaks, a rate of two and a half or three miles an hour is all they are allowed to go, for fear of washing in sand and filling up the ditch. The hon. gentleman speaks of the lift locks at Peterborough and Kirk field, and says that this government was only carrying out the work of the Liberal Conservative party. It is well known that this route was designed as a great military route. But, unfortunately, people in power, even representing the Conservative party, listened to the carping opposition of some of the old Liberals who have already been relegated to oblivion. But the carpings of these people have had the effect of causing some who should know better to believe that this is not a great work.


Mr. COWAN.: How deep is the canal ?


Samuel Hughes: Deep enough to drown a man standing on the head of the little member for South Essex (Mr. Cowan).


Mahlon K. Cowan: How tall do you want the other fellow to be ?


Samuel Hughes: 
Mr. HENDERSON.: I do not intend to discuss whether this is a proper public work or not; it seems a little too late in the day to enter on that question. The hon. member for Welland (Mr. Germdn) thought to make a point against the Conservative party by finding fault with this work, although it is endorsed and approved by the government of which he is a supporter. He said that it was during the Conservative regime that this work was commenced. I desire to draw attention to the fact that the Trent navigation work was commenced as far back as the year 1837, shortly after the completion of the Welland canal, as it was first designed. I think that after we have been going on for sixty-five years it is too late in the day to charge the responsibility for that work to either one political party or the other. I presume that there is no man alive to-day who was in power at that time and personally responsible for that work. I merely mention this fact, because the hon. gentleman seemed to have no other point in his speech than to make a reflection upon the Conservative party.


Albert Edward Kemp: As the canal system seems to be under review, I would like to inquire from the minister if it is the intention of the government to start another canal or series of canals between Lake Nippissing and the Georgian Bay ?


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I have not heard anything of the kind. No action has been taken by council towards the construction of a canal in any direction whatever.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Can the minister tell us when the work on this Trent Valley canal was commenced, and when we may hope it wiLl be wound up ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I am safe in saying it was commenced at least fifteen years ago. Construction has been continued in the way of enlargement and extension.


Edward Frederick Clarke: When is it to be finished down to Lake Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The question of the lower end has really not yet been considered. There are strong reasons why it is desirable to finish the upper part at an early date. There is not the same urgency in regard to the lower end. There is a strong probability of a considerable trade taking place on the canal already built, which Will bring a great deal of traffic to Peterborough. I understand that there are several gentlemen who are looking forward to establishing industries at Peterborough in consequence of this canal.


Samuel Hughes: I presume the minister refers to the cereal works at Peterborough. I know that the promoters are very anxious that this canal should be extended, and I can assure the minister that while this canal will assist the proprietors of the cereal works, there are hundreds of other business institutions along that line the minister is not acquainted with, but who are just as anxious to have that canal opened up. We have along the route of that canal, and tributary thereto, a population much greater than that of the city of Montreal. Some hon. gentlemen make a great noise in this House over the city of Montreal, and demand a heavy expenditure of money for the development of that place. We do not object to that, we back up a judicious expenditure for Montreal, but at the same time we ask for some consideration for the route along these waters on the Trent Valley canal.


Albert Edward Kemp: The minister said lie knew nothing in regard to the building of a canal connecting the Georgian Bay with Lake Nippissing. I presume that if such a work was contemplated it would naturally come under the Department of Railways and Canals.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I fancy so. If there is going to be a canal constructed between Lake Nippissing and the Georgian Bay, in my judgment that work would devolve upon the Minister of Railways and Canals.


Mr. WARD.: I would like to ask the minister if it is the intention of the government to make any further survey to ascertain the practicability of ta route by way of Port Hope ? I urged that matter upon the government last session. I do not intend
to discuss it now, but I would like to know if any further report of an engineer will be obtained by the department ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: When the government decides that the time has arrived to take up the construction of that canal from Peterborough south, no doubt very extended surveys will require to be made. I do not think we are yet sufficiently supplied with data to enable us to say anything on that question.


Henry Alfred Ward: Do I understand that the surveys will include a route by Port Hope ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I should think so,


Samuel Hughes: I would direct the minister's attention to the extravagance of this firm of contractors on the Trent canal. I do not know the details of the matter so far as the minister is concerned, but I understand that the minister has endeavoured to keep down these extras. But I ca,n tell the minister that I have been upon that work from time to time, and I can assure him that there was no time that I did not see five times as many men loafing as I saw working. I cannot understand how men having a contract, and hoping to finish it aiid make both ends meet, could carry on the work as those contractors seem to be doing at Peterborough. I know whereof I speak. I see the minister has endeavoured to do his best ito keep these men up to the mark, and I congratulate him oil what he has done. I hope that for the future he will keep a tight hand on them and see that they do their work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the minister tell us how much of this canal is navigable now ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I cannot tell at the moment. The deputy will procure the information for the hon. gentleman.


Samuel Hughes: That canal is navigable from the head of Lake Couclii-ching to Beaverton on the first section. Then it is navigable from Kirkfield west of Balsam Lake continuously down to Lake-field, with six feet of water on the sill all the way, a distance of sixty to eighty miles. Then it is navigable from Peterborough down to Feely's Falls near Campbellford. All the way from Peterborough to Lakefield is finished, and that section will be ready as soon as the lift lock is built. Then there will be complete navigation from Feely's Falls right up to Balsam Lake; and when the work of that lift lock is completed there will be a continuous navigation from within a few miles of the Georgian Bay right down to within a few miles of the Bay of QuintG, with exception of about ten miles at each end. It will be a canal able to carry three times the quantity of

grain that the Erie canal was ever capable of carrying.


William Humphrey Bennett: I would be sorry to let some remarks go unchallenged regarding the size and capacity of this canal. Let me say to the hon. gentlemen who have not been there, that to-day there are steamboats plying during the summer months that are licensed to carry four hundred passengers. As to the statement of the hon. member from Welland (Mr. German) concerning the size of the vessels, I am prepared to say that, with that depth of water, flat bottomed ordinary barges would be capable of carrying at least 20,000 bushels of grain.


Samuel Hughes: Twenty-five thousand bushels.


William Humphrey Bennett: And if my hon. friend thinks over the matter he will agree with me in what I say. I know of boats with a length of 260 feet and a depth of 12 feet carrying 60,000 bushels, and beyond 60,000 bushels, and if you have a boat 135 feet long with a depth of 6 feet of carrying capacity, it is plain that you will have a capacity for carriage of 20,000 bushels. Then, in addition to that, I may say, referring to the cereal factory in the town of Peterborough, that they propose at the outset to consume 15,000 bushels of grain per day and the factory is being constructed .with a consuming capacity of 30,000 bushels per day, and one of the considerations that impelled the gentlemen interested in the concern to locate there, was the fact that they would have water communication from Midland and the elevators there for the purpose of bringing their grain down to Peterborough, and also of getting their grain from along the route of the canal. It means an immense advantage to the counties of York and Simcoe that during the summer months they will be enabled to have competition with the only railway that passes through that part of the country by being able to ship their grain down through these lakes and rivers to Lake Ontario. Two or three years ago an elevator of 1,250,000 bushels capacity was erected in the town of Midland by some American gentlemen who came there in preference to locating at the city of Buffalo. 1 know that one of the great objects of the owners of that concern in coming to Midland was the fact that they anticipated there would be a consummation of this project in due course ot time, and that they would be in a position to ship out their grain either by rail or water. If hon. gentlemen would some time during the coming summer go down over these lakes and rivers in that part of the country, they would come back with vastly different feelings than those which some hon. gentlemen have given expression to in this House.


Samuel Hughes: In support ot what the hon. member for East Simcoe Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
(Mr. Bennett) has said, I would mention the fact that when the Canadian Pacific Railway were building their railway bridge at Sault Ste. Marie, the Peterborough Bridge Works Company tendered for the contract. They had to take into consideration the question of freight on their material from Peterborough to Sault Ste. Marie. The extra freight which they would have been charged for hauling their material to (Sault Ste. Marie, that is, the amount by which the freight from Peterborough to Sault Ste. Marie exceeded the rate from Belgium to Sault Ste. Marie, would have been an enormous profit on their contract. It would have represented all the profit they would expect to get on their work. The freight rates from Belgium to Sault Ste. Marie were so much lower than the freight rates from Peterborough to Sault Ste. Marie, that the Peterborough Company lost the contract. If this canal had been opened it would have been an easy matter to have had that work done in our own country rather than have foreigners tendering for it and driving our people out of business. I simply mention this as one instance. Besides the town of Peterborough along the line of the canal, there are Ash-burnham, Bobcaygeon, Eenelon Fulls, Lindsay, Barrie, Orillia, and the villages of Beaverton, Campbellford, Frankford, and other towns and villages along these rivers and lakes where industries ure springing up. The freight rates will be kept down by the competition between the canal and the railway companies. We know that the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals, having been over this route, appreciates its importance, and I am only sorry that hon. gentlemen who are not in sympathy with the carrying on of this work are not alive to their interests. They have railway passes. Why do they not take a trip over the route, so that they may see for themselves the immense advantages that would accrue to the country from the construction of this work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand that there are 60 or 70 miles of this canal now navigable. What tonnage has passed through it ? Has any record been kept of the tonnage ?


Samuel Hughes: This is largely upon the lake sections. There is a navigable course from the head of Pigeon Lake down to Buckhorn and Chemong lakes, a distance of 50 miles.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) will turn up the statistics in the report of the department, he will find all the information that we have.
Carillon and Grenville canals-to rebuild guide pier, $23,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is that work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is a revote. We have not been able to secure the construction of this pier (luring 1901-1902, and we have therefore only expended $7,000 of that vote.


John Graham Haggart: Is the work being done by contract ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Who are the contractors ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: They are a Toronto firm. I cannot remember their names.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see several places in these estimates, and I think it is a defect in them, where an item is stated as a revote, while in other places it is not so stated, and we are left in the dark as to how much is a revote and as to how much is an original vote.


The MINISTER OF RAILAVAYS AND CANALS.: It is omitted in some cases, but where it is omitted I inform the committee.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think it should be stated in all cases in the estimates.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: So it should. AVhere it is only partly a revote, it should be stated what portion is a revote and what portion is an original vote. I am trying to have that done.
Quebec canals-surveys for establishing boundaries, $1,001.


John Graham Haggart: AVhat does that mean ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It has been recommended by the officers of the department and by the chief engineer that we should have a small appropriation so that where disputes occur as to boundaries between our property and adjoining property we can make a survey. When these disputes come up we have no money that we can use for the purpose of providing for surveys.
Culbute. canal-damages by flooding, $250.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is to provide for damages by flooding in the town of Bryson, caused by the construction of a dam.


John Graham Haggart: That dam has been down for a number of years. How can it have been caused by the construction of a dam ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The hon. gentleman does not mean that the dam is down ? There was an attempt made to blow it up which made some break in it, but the dam is still there. It must have been sufficient to have occasioned this flooding. We had the matter inquired into and there was an arrangement between the town of Bryson and ourselves to settle for $250.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Here is another item of the same kind. There was a vote of $265 last year and there is a vote of $250 this year. We have no information as to whether that vote of last year was spent and this is a new item or whether there was only a small portion of the vote spent last year and this is a revote of the balance.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is entirely a new item. The account will show that we spent nearly the whole amount that was expropriated last year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this the last claim for damages ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There are quite a few still outstanding.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you adjust them by arbitration V


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have our valuator, and he reports his recommendation and some have not yet accepted what we considered to be fair, but possibly they will do so.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can the minister tell us how much we have paid for damages in this matter and what claims are still outstanding ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I will have such a statement prepared.


John Graham Haggart: What final estimates have not yet been completed on the Soulanges canal.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Those of Ryan and Macdonuell ; Andrew Onderdonk and the Canadian Electric Company. The final estimates of the others have been prepared.


John Graham Haggart: In connection with these railway items, I asked the minister the other day whether the building of the railway from Charlottetown to Murray Harbour had been let by public tender and contract, and the minister said it had. I see by the papers brought down in the other House that only 21 miles of this railway had been let by tender.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Eleven and one-half miles.


John Graham Haggart: And that the contract for the rest of the road was given to the party who obtained the contract for the 11J miles by a mere extension of their original contract. The minister led me to believe that the whole contract was let by public tender to the next lowest tenderer ;

tlie lowest tenderer not being able to carry out. the work. I protest against such a mariner of letting contracts. Where there are 40 miles of road to be built the law requires, and the Order in Council requires that all work should be let by tender.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Tenders were first asked for 11J miles which was a distinct section of the line and the least expensive and the handiest to construct. After the work was in progress, and it became necessary in the opinion of those who were most anxious to see the work carried forward-members of parliament and members of the government-that the work should be proceeded with, an offer was made to the contractor to continue the other 31J miles at the same price for that class of work. Some dispute between the engineer and the contractor arose which led to delay and although the prices were actually settled, I am not sure that the contract has been yet finally executed by the contractor. A number of tenders were received for the work when it wras first offered, and it was thoroughly advertised in all the newspapers from the 15th of November to the 23rd of December. The prices were the schedule prices, as usual under such circumstances. When we were being hurried to get the work proceeded with we proposed to the contractor who is a very respectable man, and who had secured the first contract after open competition at prices that were fair and reasonable ; we offered to him to continue the work because for the further reason we did not wish to 'have two men operating together one at one end of the line and the other at the other end, and our proposition was accepted. The work will toe continued by the same contractor who had the first pant of the road.


The CHAIRMAN.: Carried.


John Graham Haggart: No, not carried for a while yet. You have a habit of crying ' carried ' when a member is on his feet. I had cause to draw your attention to it before, but I hope I will not again. The minister states the contract was let for 111 miles, and on the pressure of members of parliament in that section of the country and others, it became a necessity to push the work forward and the 311 miles was given to the contractor at the schedule prices which he obtained by competition for the other 111 miles of the road. Was that contract offered to him with the consent of the council at the time ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: You got an Order In Council authorizing you to make the offer to him. Were there any payments made to him on the 311 miles before the contract was entered into ?


John Graham Haggart: 


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, there were no paymeuts made on other than the first 111 miles.


John Graham Haggart: Well, all I can do is to protest against it. Here is a contract for the construction of 311 miles of railroad given to a person who has not tendered for it, and without any open competition at all ; and the only excuse the minister has is that the man had constructed another section of the road, and that it was done at the urgent request of the members of parliament representing that section of the country. What is the use of having an Act of parliament which says all such works shall be let by contract'! What is the use of the Order in Council if the minister can override it 1 We cannot do anything but protest against such extraordinary conduct as that of the minister.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There is not much use of my hon. friend talking about extraordinary conduct. He does not deceive anybody, because he must recollect that it has been a very customary and usual thing. It was so under his own administration, and if he desires to be furnished with instances of it, I will supply them.


John Graham Haggart: I would be delighted.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The hon. gentleman may assume that what he did is not a justification, and I quite admit that it is not.


John Graham Haggart: I would like to see the hon. gentleman give a justification in a particular case ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No doubt it would hot be sufficient for me to show that the same thing has frequently occurred, and properly and naturally so. We invited offers from these tenderers, and the prices at which the contracts were awarded were fair and reasonable prices, as anybody will know who has had experience in business of that kind ; and the contractor was a very responsible man who had done a large amount of work, and upon whom one could rely as able to carry on the work in accordance with the contract. When the prices were fixed by competition on a small section, wTe could not do a wiser thing than continue the contract in the hands of a safe and responsible man for any further mileage we had to construct ; and that is what we did after the matter had been considered in council.


William Humphrey Bennett: We heard of so many extraordinary acts on the part of this government that one is hardly surprised at anything that occurs ; but this act overtops everything else.
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND
CANALS. The last is always the worst.
42S5


William Humphrey Bennett: But one shudders to think of what the next may be. What are the facts ? The minister wished to have constructed a certain line of railway in Prince Edward Island. Tenders were asked for 111 miles in the open market. No one can find fault with that. The work was proceeded with. The 114 miles were constructed, not for a lump amount, but on what is known as schedule prices, that is, so much for this part, and so much for that part. Then, the minister deliberately goes and gives the same man a contract for 314 miles of the same road, without asking for a tender or inviting any kind of public competition. I am not going to say that there was any collusion between the minister and these contractors ; but a strong inference can be drawn from this fact, that the minister knew that there was more profit to be derived from the construction of 40 miles than there was from the construction of 11 miles. The minister might have said to the contractor :	'To construct the 11 miles will
entail the removal of a considerable plant to the scene of operations, and I will tell you what I will do :	You tender a little
higher figure for Hi miles, and I will give you the contract for the 314 miles afterwards.' I do not know that that happened ; but the minister has placed himself in such a position that this state of affairs can fairly be inferred. But the minister did worse. Had he entered into this contract, and then gone to his colleagues and said :	' I have
made this contract and we have to stand by it,' it would have been a bad enough transaction on his part. But the minister is not alone to blame, because every colleague of his assented to the deal. He says he went in the open council with it, and every one of the ministers said : ' That proposition is a proper one, and we approve of it.' Contrast the position of the Minister of Railways with that of the Postmaster General. The Postmaster General on coming into office, found that his predecessor had said to the men who had contracts for carrying the mails : ' You got the contract in the open market for carrying the mail for $120 a year, you being the lowest tenderer ; and as you have invested in the equipment necessary to carry the mail, I will renew your contract at the same figure.' The Postmaster General cancelled all such contracts. That is a matter of record. He said to the contractors : ' You had a contract for three years only ; and when your contract expired, the minister who preceded me in office had no right to renew it, and for that reason I cancel it.' There was scores of such cases. But here the Minister of Railways and Canals lets a contract for 114 miles of railway, and then on his own authority, backed up afterwards by the council, gives a contract to the same man without any tender or competition for 314 miles more. There is not a tittle of evidence before this committee to show that the other
31J miles could not have been more cheaply constructed. On the schedule prices the work would cost as much proportionately for the 314 miles as the 114 miles did, while the means of access, the materials, the supplies and opportunities to engage in the work were all much more advantageous to the contractor. If there had to be blasting on the first 114 miles, 1 suppose the minister did not in his first schedule provide for allowing so much for granite, so much for limestone, and so forth. It may be that on the first 114 miles the contractor would meet with granite, whereas on the other part he would find shale or liardpan, the excavation of which would not be nearly so expensive. The Minister of Railways and Canals is certainly carrying things with a high hand. But, I do not blame him altogether for asserting himself. He has hard work to keep the job in his department. This afternoon lie was asked whether the French river navigation system was to be under his control or not, and right along side him was the Minister of Public Works, and he made the statement emphatically that if anything were done it would be done by himself. Evidently the hon. minister intends to assert himself. All I can say is that if he can get his colleagues in the council to back him up in deals of this kind, he will be asserting his position, and asserting it pretty emphatically. I am surprised that there is not an lion, member on the other side who will stand up and protest against this high-handed proceeding, but so long as the present government remain in office, I suppose the country will have to grin and bear it. I can tell the hon. minister, however, that such transactions as this will not stand the light of public discussion, and when properly ventilated, they will be visited on the heads of the present government as they ought to be.


Mr. FAUQUHARSON.: I do not often take up the time of the House and certainly would not rise to defend anything which I knew to be wrong or a waste of public money. I happen to be in a position to know all about this road and the ground it covers, and I think I am a much better authority on the subject than the hon. gentleman who has just addressed the House. The first 114 miles were let to the lowest tenderer, and the gentleman who got the contract, Mr. Kitchen, is a very efficient contractor who belongs to New Brunswick. Those 114 miles were let at the very best rate, being the lowest of six tenders and it must be evident that the contractor, who did the work, would be better equipped to continue it and complete the balance of the road than anybody else. It -is not extraordinary therefore that lie should have been given a contract for the balance without any tenders being called for. As a general rule, it is no doubt better to call for tenders, but there are exceptions, and the government has to he guided by the

428S
conditions which prevail, and certainly in this case the contractor, having taken tlm first 111 miles at a lower rate than anybody else offered to do the work for, and having done the work efficiently and being equipped on the ground with all the appliances to continue it, it seems to me that it was a wise policy to give him an extension of his contract at the same rates. For the balance of the 31 miles the conditions are about the same. If anything, I should say that they are more difficult, because the country is a wilder and a rougher one to traverse and will require more excavations than did the other portion of the line. For my part, I am thoroughly convinced that the arrangement was a very good one, and I certaiaily would not find any fault with the Minister of Railways for having acted as he diid.
Mr. SPltOULE. The defence made by the hon. gentleman for West Queen's (Mr. Farquharson) may be a very good one from his standpoint, if he knows all the conditions and surroundings. But what we object to is the adoption of an unsound principle, and one which is contrary to that adopted as one of the planks of the Reform platform. The Reform party adopted as one of its planks that no public money should toe expended on public works except after calling for tenders and giving the contract to the lowest tenderer, and the Minister of Railways has acted in open violation of that principle. Evidently a small contract was given to this contractor in order to afford some apology for extending that contract and giving him a larger one. The hon." member says that the cuttings are heavier in the second portion perhaps than in the first. Well, that is a reason why the contract could be taken at a cheaper rate. If the haulings are shorter and the cuttings heavier, the work could be done for less money, and if tenders have been called, in all probability it would have cost less. But the great thing against which we protest is that the principle set down in the Reform platform, as one of those on which hon. gentlemen opposite would act, if returned to power, has been deliberately violated.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. minister's statement does not agree with the return brought down in the Senate. He says that before this party began the work, the minister obtained the consent of his colleagues to the contract. If I remember rightly in the return brought down to the Senate, the department did not know at all that there were any such contracts entered into, and that the work had been commenced and in progress a number of months before the consent of the hon. minister's colleagues was obtained. The statement of Mr. Scott in the Senate was that the work had been in progress some time before the Order in Council was obtained authorising the contract.


Donald Farquharson: 


Mr. HACKETT.: 
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have arranged that he shall do the track laying and the ballasting.
I have not seen all the answers or statements made in the other Chamber with regard to this matter, but I know whereof I speak when I say that the extension of

this contract was made by Order in Council long before a blow was struck on the additional thirty and a half miles. I defend the extension of that contract on the ground of public interest, and I invite lion, gentlemen opposite to take the very first opportunity-it may not be available at this moment, but it will come-of entering upon the most thorough investigation of the whole proceeding. What are tenders asked for ? In order that we may make sure that the country is not paying an unreasonable price for the work that is being done. And what kind of people do you wish to tender ? People who are competent to carry out the work they undertake, people who have means, people who are responsible and can stand behind the undertakings they make. We had tenders for eleven and a half miles which was all we expected to build at that time. These tenders showed us just *vhat competition would do as to the cost of the work. Our engineers were satisfied that the prices were reasonable. And hon. gentlemen opposite can look at them and see whether they are reasonable or not. We found that we had a competent and responsible contractor, and he was willing to take the work at the same prices for similar-classes of work as those covered by his tender. Therefore, in the public interest, we did what has been done in the department over and over again, we extended this contract. I do not carry the details of these matters in my mind, but I will bring a statement of some extensions that have been made from time to time by our own and other governments, for such extensions have been made by all governments under conditions which are practically the same as these. It is a very legitimate mode of doing business for the lowest tenderers are often people who are not capable of carrying out the work, and who give the department more trouble than the saving of expense is worth. They get a contract from the government and think they are going to make a great deal of money whether they have had experience or not. But it is always better, if possible, to get a safe man. If you are paying only a reasonable price for the work and have responsible men who are capable of carrying out your contract, it is far better to extend their contracts than to call in others of whose capacity you have no knowledge.


William Humphrey Bennett: If the extension had been for seventy-five miles instead of thirty-one miles, would the hon. minister have given the contract ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There was no suggestion of an extension


William Humphrey Bennett: But, if it had amounted to seventy-five miles, would the hon. gentleman have acted in the same way ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I can hardly be expected to say, offhand, exactly what would have been done if the circumstances had been entirely different.


Mr. ROSAMOND.: I think we shall have to ask the Postmaster General (Hon. Mr. Mulock) to read his colleague a great moral lecture upon the duty of giving out contracts by tender only. We know how the Postmaster General has sacrificed himself in the carrying out of his principle in this respect, a principle which has been so much neglected by hon. gentlemen opposite. I expect the Postmaster General to read his colleague a severe lecture.


Mr. MURRAY.: I do not rise to defend the Minister of Railways and Canals, but I like to see a discussion carried on with fairness. To my mind as a business man, the Minister of Railways and Canals gave his contract for the extension of the work in a businesslike way. He did exactly what the Canadian Pacific Railway Company did in the construction of their line, Tne contractors who tendered for work on that road were given contracts right along as long as their work was satisfactory. Hon. gentlemen opposite do not appear to be in harmony. One of them said that the work on this eleven and a half miles was much more difficult than the remainder, while another said that the other part was more hilly and required more excavation. The question is simply, was the second contract let for more than the work was worth ? The Minister of Railways and Canals was the judge. He knew he had got the lowest tenderer for the eleven and a half miles, and that a good contractor could not do the rest of the work for less than the price at which he gave it. So, in a businesslike way, he extended the contract for the additional mileage he required at the same schedule of prices. I do not think the country has suffered, but the opposition in this matter are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Before the giving of this contract labour and everything else had advanced in price, and the chances are that the minister got the best of the bargain.


William Humphrey Bennett: The Minister of Railways and Canals is certainly to be congratulated on the fact that at least he has found one dutiful and docile supporter. The member for Pontiac (Mr. Murray) wants no more tenders asked for by the Railway Department. If the minister says it is right, the hon. member for Pontiac accepts in silent awe. This is going to be a case of hero worship with the hon. gentleman from this time out. Let any minister bring up what he chooses and the hon. member for Pontiac is ready to say that it is all right because the minister says so. But the hon. minister did not find so docile a supporter in the hon. member for West Queen's (Mr. REVISED EDITION

Farquharson). That lion, gentleman says it may have been right or it may not. I think that hon. gentleman is aggrieved- and this throws light on the story-because the contractor did not come from Prince Edward Island, but from New Brunswick.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: He came from a good place.


William Humphrey Bennett: He certainly came from a good place to get a contract in that department. I wonder if ' my friend Pugsley ' did not intervene on this contractor's behalf? Perhaps he did. Perhaps the Prince Edward Island contractor did not secure the services of ' my friend Pugsley.' But the blissfulness of the hon. member for Pontiac is beautiful to see. If the minister gives a contract for five miles of railway, evidently he can continue it for fifty miles without further tenders, and be sure of the support of the hon. member for Pontiac. All he wishes is that the minister shall say it is right. No doubt, he will say it is right, then he is prepared to support it. Once again I have to congratulate the Minister of Railways and Canals. He has asserted his position. He came down with the Drummond County Railway deal, all signed, sealed and delivered, and threw it at his supporters and said : There it is, take it. And they did take it. He came down with the Yukon deal and threw it at his supporters without ever consulting them, although it was only a day or two before the meeting of parliament, and they said : We will take that too. Now the minister comes down with a proposition and says, I want you to understand that I am going to let railway contracts on this principle. I shall let a contract for a few miles, and if I see the prices are right, I will extend that railway indefinitely; and I shall expect you to do as you have done before, one after another, getting up like the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Murray) and saying amen to the proposition.


Thomas Murray: I wish to inform the hon. gentleman that I am not a slavish supporter of this or of any government. I think he is stretching his imagination when he says that I approve of everything the minister does, and am satisfied to let him go on and let contracts. I said nothing of the kind. I say that in this case I think the minister was justified. I do not approve of the principle. The hon. member, I think, has tried to misconstrue my statements.


Edward Hackett: Has the minister settled on the location of the southern terminus of this railway, whether it will be at Murray River Bridge or Murray Harbour ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have not come to a final settlement with regard to that. Perhaps it would be necessary for me to go down there myself and look over the ground with some of my officers.
Mr, BENNETT.
Salaries, engineirs, draftsmen, extra clerks and messengsrs, $26,140.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There is an increase over last year of $350. We have given an increase to Mr. E. Y. Johnson, the inspecting engineer, of $200, an'd $100 to the assistant engineer, and $50 to Mr. A. H. McKee.
Prince Edward Island Railway, $275,000.


William Humphrey Bennett: I did not understand the minister to say what was the approximate cost per mile of the eleven and a half miles that were constructed under the original contract.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I have not the information, but I can get it in the office.


William Humphrey Bennett: Has that eleven and a half*miles been paid for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, it is not completed yet.
Mr. SPItOULE. The other day I asked about the schedule prices paid in that contract, and the minister did not give us any information.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I will get the information and furnish it.


John William Bell: I see from the government return up to the end of 1901 that the cost of working the Prince Edward Island Railroad increased by over $40,000 over the preceding year. Does the minister expect any such increase this year ? If so, he is not appropriating nearly enough money to carry on that road. If his working expenses are increased by $40,000 this year he will need over $300,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have had to add something to the operating charges. I have had from all the members representing the island a demand urging to give them two trains a day during the winter season as well as in the summer, on that portion of the line that is not so served. We cannot put on two trains without considerably augmenting the cost of operation. Many things in the way of improvements are required, which I hope to be able to take up during the year. So 1 could not hold out any promise of reduction in the balance against us for the current year. Our business is growing nicely, I understand it is better than in former years. But we have these urgent demands upon us, and reasonable demands too, with which I would be glad to comply.


John William Bell: In that case the hon. minister is making no provision for such an increased service, because he is merely taking this year $14,000 more than the working expenses last year.
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND
CANALS. Yes.


John William Bell: Is it likely that any trains will be operated on the branch we have been discussing ? Will it be completed by the end of the fiscal year ?


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No.


John William Bell: He has not anticipated that there will be any outlay iu that direction.


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The bridge will not be completed for probably a year and a half.


John William Bell: I observe the hou. minister had increased earnings of $19,000 and increased operating expenses of $40,000 which would be more than twice the amount of the increased earnings, so that, if he anticipates any increased business and he has no more revenue, it means that for every dollar he gets of revenue it will cost him $2 of expenditure and he is making no provision for such an event.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There were certain improvements on the road which had to be made, and if I had had a capital expenditure the cost would not have appeared in the working expenses at all. I feel like treating the Island road with a reasonable degree of liberality. The people there are situated very differently from us on the mainland and I think they have a strong claim to consideration. If I have any discretion to exercise I think I should exercise that discretion in a general way toward the Island railway.


Edward Hackett: I am pleased to hear this statement from the lion. Minister of Railways and Canals and I trust in doing that he will put on a second train west of Summerside. We, who live west of Sum-merside, believe that this is the best paying part of the road. It is true there may not be as many passengers as on other portions of the road but there is more freight and more traffic of that kind and I urge upon the hon. minister as strongly as possible the necessity of giving us this second train and I trust that he will see his way clear to comply with our wishes in this respect. We have two trains during the summer months and we are only deprived of this second train about four months in the year.
I believe that if we had this second train in that part of the country it would not increase expenses but it would largely add to the revenue. I am not surprised at the increase in the working expenses for 1900. There is a very good reason for that. The hon. minister knows all about it. I need not repeat anything iu that connection, but it will not occur again for some time to come. He will have two or three years at all events during which time he will not have as great a number of men working on the railway as he had in 1900. I trust the hon. minister will see his way clear to put on a second train.	'
135i


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I will have to trust to * Hansard ' for what the hon. gentleman has said because the talking that is going on about me renders if impossible for me to hear him.
Canals repairs' and operating expenses, $668,634.


John Graham Haggart: Will the hon. minister kindly give the details of the increase of $52,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The increase of $52,000 is due to the following items ; staff and repairs, $9,988. There is an item for lighting the canal and for furnishing electric power for the canal which makes up-


John Graham Haggart: Which canal ?


The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The Cornwall canal. We are lighting it with electric light and the gates are being worked with electric power.


John Graham Haggart: I would like to ask the hon. minister just here, although we have left the railway estimates a question. I see a rumour to the effect that Mr. Russell who is the head superintendent of the Intercolonial Railway is about to be retired and the report is that Mr. Tiffin is to take his place and that a Mr. Ross is to take Mr. Tiffin's place. Is there any truth in these rumours.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: None whatever. There is no truth in them. No such action has been taken and at this moment no such action is contemplated.
Additional to pay persons employed permanently in * the public service and remuneration to any other per&ous for servic?s rendered for and in connection with passing vessels through the canals of the government of Canada from midnight on Saturday to mid-night on Sunday, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $18,000.


John Graham Haggart: How is that increase of $3,000 to workmen for working over hours accounted for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The opening of the Soulanges canal itself would make up a good deal of idifference and I am not sure but that it would absorb the whole $3,000.


John Graham Haggart: The Soulanges canal alone ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I think it would take a verv large portion of the $3,000.
Intercolonial Railway-Improved ferry service, Strait of Canso, $247,000.


John Graham Haggart: We want the fullest explanation of that.
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND
CANALS. This is a balance required to

complete the ferry and the approaches on both sides. The expenditure upon that *work altogether including the cost of the steamer, the approaches, the hydraulic lifts, the subaqueous excavation, will amount to $610,000.


John William Bell: What did the steamer cost 1


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Two hundred and fifty-four thousand dollars.


John William Bell: Is the work that was done for her in Halifax included in the $610,000 ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: There was some painting and cleaning done on her there during the winter.


John Graham Haggart: Was the steamer found serviceable for the work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Very; we have favourable accounts of her.


John Graham Haggart: Why was she sent to Halifax ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: She was battered about by storms in crossing the Atlantic, and some of her machinery was injured. While they gave her ample coal for some days beyond an ordinary passage, yet she encountered such rough weather and not being able to make very good time at sea, she exhausted her coal near Newfoundland and was towed in there. When she came to Mulgrave we thought that it would be better that she should be taken to Halifax and be looked over. She is now upon the route and doing all that we expected of her.


John William Bell: How many cars does she carry at a time ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: She has three tracks on her deck, and is about 270 feet long. We expect her to take a full train.


John William Bell: Engine and all ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It is not expected the engine would go over.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: Where was delivery taken ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We took delivery on the other side. She sailed in September or the last of August and she arrived on the last of September or early in October. We were not ready for her, as we did not have the approaches finished, but at all events we thought she would not be in shape to go to work right away. We had not any precedent for this system of hydraulic lifting, and the oflicers had to do a certain amount of original work.


Andrew George Blair: 


Robert Laird Borden: What time was she put on commission on the ferry ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: 25th of April.


Robert Laird Borden: There has been no experience of this boat in the ice so far.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I do not know that we have had experience of the ice, but we have not any doubt as to her efficiency in the ice. She has been built by a firm who have built a number of vessels of various kinds for the Russian Government, and who are thoroughly familiar with what is required.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it intended to transport a whole train across the Strait-all the passenger cars, baggage cars, and everything ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes. She will take a whole passenger train easily.


John Graham Haggart: Is there any estimate in the department of what the cost of a bridge there would be ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No. I have talked to some of our engineers on the subject, but there has been no careful estimate made of what a bridge would cost. I have heard it stated by gentlemen who profess to know, that it would cost five or six millions, but the opinion of some of the engineers in my department is that it would cost more than that.


Robert Laird Borden: Outside of this boat there has been an expenditure of $350,000 ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: $350,000 or $360,000.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the minister make a statement as to what has been done with that ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have done a large amount of bridge construction in the form of approaches on either side. This has been largely experimental work, some of which we have had to take up again. These superstructures alone have cost us $86,000. On dredging, we have spent $93,000. On electrical work, engineering, and so forth, we have spent $22,500.


John Graham Haggart: Have you a search light on the boat ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, we shall have-we have alwys had-a search light on our ferry.


Robert Laird Borden: Has there been any uifficulty with the structures on either side by reason of ice during the past winter ?

The MINISTER OF P ' H.WAYS AND CANALS. I think not any serious trouble ; but there has been some slight displacement at Point Tupper. That is where we are likely to have trouble if we are going to have any.


Robert Laird Borden: Is the work done partly or without tender ?
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. The labour work was done by ourselves ; but we invited tenders for all the materials and supplies of every kind.
Intercolonial Railway-to provide additional tools and machinery, $49,000-
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. In this there is a revote of $47,-
000.	Last year when we took the vote in the main estimates, we are in hopes that this work would be done during the year ; but every manufacturer has been overrun with work, and has been slow in delivery.
Intercolonial Railway-rolling stock, $70,000.
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. This is to pay for four shunting engines that have been made at the Kingston Locomotive Works. The price of these engines is $17,500 each.
Intercolonial Railway-improvement at Mul-grave, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The appropriation for the current year of $13,000 was not quite sufficient, and we require this to supplement it.
Mr.	BORDEN (Halifax). Are the	additional tools and machinery to supply the place of those which are already worn out, or are they in addition to those which have been used in the past ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is for larger and heavier machines to handle the larger and heavier engines, and I do not know of any other items in the estimate that has any connection with this.


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).: Before the Intercolonial Railway items are through I would like to call the attention of the hon. minister to the local railway service between L6vis and the valley of the Meta-pedia. I have received a number of petitions from residents in the counties of Bonaventure and Rimouski, complaining about the railway running time in that district. I understand that a time table is being prepared for the spring and summer service, and I would like to ask the hon. minister if possible to comply with the Wishes of the people in those localities. What the people complain of more particularly is the local service. There is only one local train per day eastward, which leaves Point L6vis at 8.15 a.m., and arrives in Campbellton at 8.45 p.m.. taking 12 hours to cover 303 miles, and going west
the train leaves Campbellton at 10.15 p.m., and reaches L6vis at 10.45 the following morning, taking over 12 hours to cover the same distance. Then there is a train going west which leaves Campbellton at 6 o'clock in the morning, and arrives at St. Flavie at 4 p.m. in the afternoon, taking 10 hours to cover 105 miles. The local service from Metapedia to LGvis westward is altogether at night. The train leaves Campbellton at 10.45 p.m., and goes over a large area at night, arriving at the different stations at 11 p.m., 12 a.m., 3 a.m., and 4 a.m., thus compelling the people to wait until very late at night or get up at early hours in the morning in order to catch the local train. What they want is that out-train should leave Point L6vis at 7 a.m. for Campbellton and that the train which leaves Campbellton at 10.45 a.m. should leave at 7 a.m., and reach Point Levis in the evening. I have presented a number of petitions asking for this change iu the service and my colleague from Rimouski has also presented a number of petitions to the same effect, and I am sure that the liou. minister will meet the wishes of the people in that locality.
Sault Ste. Marie canal-Towards deepening and widening the entrance, $20,000.


John Graham Haggart: That is being expended during this year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: What will it require to complete the whole entrance to a 21-foot depth of navigation ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The estimated cost is $420,000.


John Graham Haggart: Will the whole of it be finished this season ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, we have not even let the contract for the upper, and the lower entrance work will not be completed this current year. We are now dealing with the supplementaries for the year we are in up to next year.


John Graham Haggart: I wish to draw the attention of the hon. minister to his surveys on the Georgian canal and to .show him how entirely useless they are. The hon. gentleman must remember that in the debate in the House it was contemplated that this would be an extension of the same system of waterways which are at present in force from Lake Superior down, which is a 20-foot navigation. But the surveys are all got out and the quantities and estimates and everything else on the basis of a 14-foot navigation. We have got that in the Welland canal, and there is no use of building a new canal with a 14-foot depth of navigation. The surveys, estimates and plans ought to have been taken out on the basis of a 20-foot navigation. If the minister

has the information in his department, perhaps the engineers, on the surveys they have made, will be able to make an estimate of the cost of the 20-foot navigation, and he ought to be ready next session to supplement his report, which is entirely useless, by giving this information.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Is the hon. gentleman under the impression that we are making a survey of the Georgian Bay route for canal purposes ? We are not doing that. I quite agree that the project ought to be on a 20-foot basis, and we' are not making any survey at all. We did one year ask parliament to give us a small grant, not exceeding $10,000, to enable us to survey a portion of the canal, but we did not take the thing up as a project at all, and have not had any extensive surveys made. I am given to understand that the company have prepared plans and estimates on the basis of a 20-foot navigation to show what the whole enterprise would cost, but that information has not been furnished the, government.


John Graham Haggart: If the hon. minister will look at his own report, he will see that Mr. H. F. McLeod, civil engineer, and Mr. Kerr made a survey in 1900, of all the locks required on the whole length of the canal from the Georgian bay down, and gave the estimated cost, based on a depth of a 14-foot navigation.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I think that that has been abandoned for some time. We came to the conclusion that it would be idle for the company to undertake the construction of a canal with a 14-foot navigation. It must be a 20-foot or not at all.


John Graham Haggart: This is the first report we have had from the hon. minister, and it is the report of this year on surveys made in 1900 and 1901.
At six o'clock, committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Railways and canals-chargeable to capital- Lachine canal-Towards electrical installation, $25,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We desire to make use of electricity on the canal, and are installing a plant for the purpose. The object is to light the canal, work the gates and bridges, &c. The contract is in the hands of the Canadian Electrical Company, by whom it was secured under tender. Messrs. Ahearn & Soper are the contractors for putting up the poles and wire cables, and Messrs. Grant & Co. for the work that is being done to power house. We propose to erect a power house and produce the current for ourselves.


John Graham Haggart: 


John Graham Haggart: What is the total cost ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The total will be $90,000. We had an appropriation of $30,000 in the estimates of last year, and the probable expenditure up to the 30th .Tune, 1902, is $50,753. We require this $25,000. therefore, to carry on the work till the end of the year. We have a round sum of $35,000 in the estimates for the year to come. In that is included the estimate for the power house, and out of that sum will be taken whatever amount is required to cover the $90,000.


John Graham Haggart: If I understand the minister, then, he will have this sum of $25,000, which, with sums already voted, will make $55,000, and he is taking $45,000 in the estimates next year. That will make $100,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, the $45,000 for this year includes the continuation of the work on the walls for next year, also some dredging and a pontoon gate.
Farran's Point canal-Enlargement, $26,000,


John Graham Haggart: What amount will be necessary in order to finish that work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The expenditure for the current year, ending 30th June next, will exceed the appropriation by this amount, and so we require this to meet these obligations.


John Graham Haggart: What amount have you in the estimates for next year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have $10,000.


John Graham Haggart: Will that finish the work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, so I am advised.
North Channel-Forming, $50,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total amount expended on the north channel and does this finish it ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We are to get next year, under the estimates, $56,000. That, I understand, will finish the work.


John Graham Haggart: What will be the total cost when finished?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Something short of $1,200,000.
Galops Rapids-Deepening and widening, $50,-CCO.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I propose to make a reduction in this item. When we were discussing this matter the other day, I said we were not asking any sum for continuing the work, but

that there was $25,000, or very close to it, which we owed on account of work done before the 1st of July of the current year.


John Graham Haggart: Not the current year, but the year before.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Before the 1st of July, the fiscal year in which we are now.


John Graham Haggart: No.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, the current fiscal year commences on the 1st of July. Then I say we were providing for an amount which would he sufficient to pay for the work done prior to the 1st of July of the current fiscal year. Now, I do not see that there is anything due in respect of work that was done before the 1st of July. That has not been properly estimated upon, and I have not the figures to enable me to state accurately what the amount due on work would toe done prior to the commencement of the fiscal year that we are now in. Therefore, I do not propose to aisle the committee to vote anything in respect to that. If we fiud there is anything, and I do not think there is much, we will have to ask parliament to provide for it later. But now, all I ask for is a sufficient amount to pay the drawbacks, which are between $24,000 and $25,000.	1
ask for one-half of this present vote, and leave the appropriation standing at $25,000. The drawback previous to the 1st of July, in the current year-


John Graham Haggart: No, there was no vote for the Galops Rapids last year at all. Then this work must have been done before last year; and the amount is for work, you say, dome during the current year.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I beg the hou. gentleman's pardon, I stated the very reverse. I am saying that all I am asking for is a vote which will enable me to pay what was retained by drawback for work prior to the 1st of July, in the current year, or to be more explicit, the first day of July, 1901. Not one farthing am I asking for to be paid in respect of anv work subsequent to the 1st of July, 1901.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why have an expenditure without an appropriation ? Because it must be clear that yon went on and continued the work for which you had no appropriation, about a year ago.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I did not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Somebody must have done it. Surely it was done under the instructions of the engineer.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, I want to be understood explicitly by the committee. I stated at the last meeting of the committee when this item was referred to, that the contractor
wtas notified that we were not going to continue the work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: About what date ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: He was notified before the 1st of July, 1901; and he had no authority whatever, expressed or implied, for continuing the work after that date.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why should the hon. gentleman now ask for a sum to pay him if he had no authority ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I -must he lacking in the faculty of explaining myself if the hon. gentleman has not understood me. I say that I am not asking for anything .more than sufficient to pay the drawback that was due and retained in the department, as is usual in all contracts, for work prior to the 1st of July, 1901.


John Graham Haggart: I understand what the hon. minister says perfectly well. Does he mean to say that the work did in 1901 amounted to $300,000 V It was a daily contract, so much per day, and there could be no drawback in paying for anything before 1901, and there was a drawback for work done to the extent of $500,000 in 1902.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, the hon. gentleman knows that drawbacks are always deducted in forming estimates, and it is only when special application is made that any portion of the drawback is released.


John Graham Haggart: Then the minister will please tell us what is the amount of the contract, what is the amount of the drawback that is due on the contract, and how far does it extend back ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The drawback is 10 per cent on over $200,000, on all the work that was done front 1897 to 1901. Ten per cent on that has been retained and is in our bauds. I do not think I can make it clearer than that. I state distinctly to the committee that I have no intention of paying one dollar for work done after the 1st of July.


John Graham Haggart: Then the minister must see that he is exceeding his vote of 1901 by the extent of the drawback. He expended on the Galops Rapids a certain amount of money, which is exceeded by the drawback to the extent, as he says, of $25,000. What does he want the other $25,000 for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The hon. gentleman cannot properly draw an inference of that kind. I ask the hon. gentleman why he says that the appropriation was exceeded, otherwise there would be no drawback retained.


John Graham Haggart: I think it is perfectly clear, and the minister ought to see it at a glance. There was an amount

voted for the Galops canal in 1900, in the year previous, and in the year previous to that. Then the amount he says has been expended on the 1st of July, 1901.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: What amount ?


John Graham Haggart: The $10,000 you paid him, plus the drawback for which you are asking an amount now. Was not the total amount voted paid to the Gilbert Company ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No. Of the $100,000 appropriation for 1901, the amount expended was about $90,000. Now, we would have been able, if the application had been made to us before that appropriation lapsed, to pay $10,000 out otf that appropriation on account of the drawback. But it was not asked for and was not paid; and the appropriation therefore for the difference between what was paid and the amount of the drawback, has lapsed.


John Graham Haggart: Then the total amount that.has lapsed is $10,000 ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, on that year.


John Graham Haggart: Don't you pay the drawback for the year previous, when he is hired by the day ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We do sometimes. Sometimes the contractor comes in and makes an application, and we go to council and get authority to pay the drawback to the cointractor. If he does not ask for it, he does not get it. In this case he has not asked for it, and therefore he did not get it.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount of the drawback that is due them for the three years ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Between $24,000 and $25,000.


John Graham Haggart: What are you asking the other $25,000 for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I say I am not. I am striking $25,000 out of the vote.


John Graham Haggart: You are striking out $25,000 and only going to apply the drawback which is due the contractor to the first of July, 1901?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I can assure my hon. friend that I have repeated that fifteen or twenty times.


John Graham Haggart: I did not hear what the hon. gentleman said when he was striking out the $25,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: That was the first thing I mentioned.


Thomas Barnard Flint: 


John Graham Haggart: Resolved that a sum not exceeding $25,000 be granted to . His Majesty for deepening and widening the Galops Rapids.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it usual for a contractor to allow a drawback of 10 per cent to remain for a year without applying for It?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I do not recall individual instances, but I know where there have been large accumulations of drawbacks and we have very often to get the necessary authority to pay them. At certain times a contractor will allow his drawback to remain a good deal longer than he will at other times. There is no rule about it.


John Graham Haggart: If I understand, this is a contract by the day. His dredges are hired?	.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Only in part.


John Graham Haggart: Only in part, I know, but the amount that is paid in on his contract is a small proportion of the total payment for the use of his dredges. And you are deducting an amount equal to 10 per cent of the whole, which you have now continued to keep for over three years without the contractor making application for the payment of the 10 per cent. It is most extraordinary.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Soulanges canal-Construction and equipment,

John Graham Haggart: What is that for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is to enable us to clear up for the year what has been done in respect to the work on this canal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is contract work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes.
Rapide Plat canal, enlargement, $50,000.


John Graham Haggart: What is the amount to be expended for next year, and what is the total amount required to finish the work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The amount we have asked for next year will finish it.


John Graham Haggart: The amount you have now in the estimates for next year will finish the whole expenditure in connection with the Rapide Plat canal ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes, that Is the estimate of the engineer.


John Graham Haggart: Well that is about the end of the St. Lawrence canal system. What is the amount the hon. minister estimates will be required to finish the whole of the St. Lawrence works from the head of the Galops Rapids down to Montreal ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I thought I had that statement here in my room, but I believe it is over at my office. I will have it for the supplement-aries for next year.


John Graham Haggart: I would like the hon. minister to make a general statement too in reference to the Welland canal and the whole system of navigation and what will be required to finish it *up and have it ready when the supplementaries are under discussion.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I intend to do that.
The gathering information and otherwise with reference to a railway commission, $1,100.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is this for ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is to cover what we have paid for gathering information in respect to a railway commission.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That was the railway commission in regard to freight rates ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We had a commission of inquiry from one end of the country to the other. The commissioner took evidence and inquired into freight rates and such troubles as were arising in respect to railways.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was the gentleman appointed on this railway commission a railway expert, or what qualifications had he for doing that work ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: He had very superior qualifications, as far as I could judge. I inquired to ascertain where I could get a man who had been a student of economic questions, who had studied railway questions and inter-state laws regulating railways, and I found such a man in the person of Prof. McLean.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What experience had he in connection with railways ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: He had never operated a railway. He had never been in the employ of a railway company, but he had studied railway questions generally and he is a professor in Lafayette College, Arkansas. Any one who has taken the trouble to read the report prepared by him, I think, cannot fail to be pleased with the manner in which he has discharged the duties imposed upon him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He is a professor of what branch ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Political economy and other economic questions.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would hardly think that a teaching professor would have such
an intimate knowledge of railway traffic and traffic arrangements between railway companies as would make him an expert in that line. He might, from the literary standpoint, and as a professor of political economy, be able to write a fine report, but I can hardly think that would make him an expert, or make him more suitable for this work than a business man who had been connected with railways.
Welland canal, to complete west docking at Port Dalhousie, $ll,u00.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is for work done under the contract of Mr. John Riley. The amount appropriated last year, we thought, would suffice for the work this year, but it has not sufficed. The contractor has gone on and continued the work, as we were glad to have him do, and we want $11,000 to pay what he is likely to earn in the current year.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total amount required to finish that dock?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The amount expended up to date is $19,000. This work will be finished during the current year, and $11,000 will finish it.


John Graham Haggart: Is there anything in for next year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No.


John Graham Haggart: This finishes it.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes.
Strengthening of wall at head of locks, $5,000.


John Graham Haggart: Is that old canal used by vessels ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Yes. There are some factories there. We have to keep it open.


John Graham Haggart: It is only useful for supplying water power to the factories. What rental is the minister getting for that water power ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: New leases are granted upon very much better terms for the country than the old ones. I have endeavoured to secure for the benefit of the public not an excessive but a reasonable rate.


John Graham Haggart: How much per horse power ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Not less than $2 and as high as $6 annually.
To complete drainage at Port Colborne, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have to do this work in consequence of the remonstrances of the board of health.	.


John Graham Haggart: Wliy is the government expected to do the drainage.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If we obstruct the natural drainage by our canal I presume we would be bound to provide drainage.


Mr. COCHRANE.: The water in the canal would not be any higher than the level of the lake, and so you cannot obstruct the drainage.


John Graham Haggart: I cannot understand how it is possible that you can obstruct the drainage by building the canal.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We do not want the surface drainage to go into the canal.


John Graham Haggart: It could not go anywhere else than into the canal. I cannot understand for the life of me the principle upon which the government does this work. It is unexplainable I suppose. Go on to the next item.
Lachine canal-To complete work of paving Mill street, $1,000.


John Graham Haggart: Why do you pave Mill street.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This finishes it and we will hand it over to the city, which will relieve us from any further responsibility.


John Graham Haggart: But on what principle do you pave Mill street.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It belongs to us and nobody else could do it.


John Graham Haggart: Oh, no.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It is a long strip on government property and it is used for traffic.


John Graham Haggart: And because a street in Montreal is alongside government property you are called upon to pave it.
To rebuild waste weir, $6,000.


John Graham Haggart: I suppose this is about ten times the amount you ever collected in rent from the parties you supply the water to.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: What policy has the government adopted in reference to this. Why should the public be called upon to contribute to building weirs for gentlemen who have manufacturing establishments on the canal. I should think that if we furnish them with water they should build their own weirs. I am not disposed to grumble about doing anything for the benefit of the public as a whole, but as the representative of a rural constituency I do not feel called upon to vote public money to accommodate gentlemen in Montreal or anywhere else. You not only keep up the weirs but you Hon. Mr. BLAIR.
build bridges across the weirs for them. Why should we do this work for private individuals ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: These weirs have been there for a great many years and they require to be rebuilt and there is no alternative.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I do not accfept that as an explanation at all. I do not think it is a common' sense explanation that because a grievance has existed for years past even under the administration I supported, it should be continued. If we find that this is not a paying investment we should stop it. If it is a losing game for us let those who get the benefit of the weirs keep them up. What is the revenue derived from keeping up these weirs ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I cannot say from memory nor can the chief engineer.


John Graham Haggart: The minister, in order to protect the canal and keep it from breaking away, should see that the weirs are properly built and put in proper order; and after that any repairs upon them should be charged to the individual who is using the water.


Bennett Rosamond: Is there any revenue at all derived from these weirs ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I cannot tell how much revenue we get from them. These water powers are subject to rental-not as much, I am sorry to say, as they ought to be, or as much as we are getting under the new leases; but they are all subject to rental.


Bennett Rosamond: It seems to me that if these weirs are maintained by the government for the benefit of the mills, the government ought to derive at least enough revenue from the mills to keep them in repair. These mill-owners are given an advantage over their competitors if they have these weirs maintained for them at the public expense. It is no argument to say that the same thing has been done by previous governments.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I am not bringing that forward as an argument at all, although I can say with absolute truthfulness that we are repairing the weirs just as they have always been repaired, and I think it would be rather hard on the lessees of these water privileges, after the lapse of all these years during which they have used them on the same conditions, never having been asked to contribute a farthing towards their repair, if we should now ask them to repair them. How could we compel them to do it ? We have given them leases which do not contain any covenant to compel them to keep up the weirs.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: There is no clause which compels you to keep them up.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: If we did not keep them up, the canal would be hurt more than these people, and we cannot allow anything to occur that would impair the safety of the canal.


John Graham Haggart: The hon. minister says that hitherto there has been no contribution by the parties who own the water powers towards the maintenance of these weirs-that they have always been maintained by the government.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: So I am told by the chief engineer.


John Graham Haggart: I would like the minister, before the next supplementary estimates are brought, to inquire and ascertain whether that is strictly correct or not, because, if my memory serves me rightly, I obliged some of them, when the weirs got out or order, to pay, at any rate, half the cost of putting them in order.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I have already stated that what I am saying I am saying on the authority of the chief engineer, that we are pursuing exactly the same course that has obtained hitherto; and I can well understand that unless there is a covenant in these leases-


John Graham Haggart: There is a covenant for repairs, to be paid by the lessee.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: That I will have to look into, because I am advised that there is not.


Bennett Rosamond: The minister will see that every mill-owner in the country using a water power is obliged to keep up his water power at his own expense; and therefore it is, I think, unjust that the mill-owners along the canals should have these weirs kept up for them at the public expense, and without contributing any revenue whatever to the country. I do not think that should be allowed to continue.
1 would be glad if the minister would bring down some information later on as to what revenue is derived from these weirs.
Culbute canal-To pay damages by flooding,


John Graham Haggart: Here is another thousand dollars.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I shall be glad to read to the committee the names of the claimants and the amounts which have been reported upon and which we are prepared to pay as full settlement : A. Sabine, $75; Y. Lamarche, $30; L. Lacroix, sr., $40; G. Gervais, $10; T. Kearney, $55; F. Wright, $20; Rev. T. V. L. Morque, $75 ; E. Wousseau, $15 ; T.
Kearney, $55; M. McVeigh, $1G0; D. Gervais, $25; M. Griffin, $50; T. Lacroix, $30; W. Lett, $20; L. Lacroix, jr., $30; A. Caswell, $40; legal and other expenses, $270; making $1,000.


John Graham Haggart: Do you take a release from them to the effect that if at any time the Culbute canal is raised up to its former height, they will claim no more damages ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We have not settled these yet; but I should think that would be proper.


John Graham Haggart: We put the dam down, and I thought we had paid everybody who had any claim when the dam was at its full height. But now that it is down, there are more claims.
Intercolonial Railway-Operation and maintenance, $1,000,000.


John Graham Haggart: What was the amount voted last year ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: $4,500,000. and this is to supplement it up to the 1st of July next, which will make it the same as last year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Perhaps the minister could give us some information as to what the deficit is on the working expenses of the road this year?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: I made the statement the other day that down to the 31st of March there was a deficit of $136,000, as compared with a deficit of $500,000 and $600,000 during the corresponding period of preceding years. I expect that this deficit will be extinguished and that there will be a credit on the other side.


John Graham Haggart: This would only be available for about six weeks expenditure on the Intercolonial Railway, and most of it must have been spent.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS A ND CANALS.: We have not paid last months yet. There are three months not paid.


George Taylor: Are we to understand that the employees have not been paid for three months ?


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: We pay the working men monthly. On the 10th of May the men are paid for April, so that we have April, May and June still to pay, which makes three-months.
Cornwall canal, repairs and working expense, 118,150.


John Graham Haggart: How do you exceed the estimate for repairs and working expense by $8,000 in one year on a canal that was only finished a couple of years ago.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is for the lighting of the canal by electricity, which comes under the general item of repairs and working expenses.


Mr. PRINGLE.: While dealing with this matter, I would like to refer to a subject which pertains to it, and that is the superannuation of a man named Shield^. I desire to express my appreciation of the efforts of the Minister of Railways and Canals to see that justice was done Mr. Shields. I received a communication a short time ago to the effect that the treasury board had granted him his superannuation from the date of that letter, but I would like to call the hon. gentleman's attention to this fact, that on the 12th April, 1897, Mr. Shields was notified that his services would no longer be required. A period of five years has elapsed since then, but he is entitled to the superannuation from the 12th April, 1897, and is therefore entitled to the arrears from that date to the present. I do not think that the government are treating Mr. Shields at all fairly in simply allowing his superannuation from the present day. He . should have the arrears for that period of five years, and I would ask the hon. minister to take that matter into his consideration. I have received a letter from Mr. Shields- who unfortunately is very ill, and I do not know when he may_get better-complaining about these arrears and asking that this should be made right. Now that the government have looked into the matter and found that there was unquestionably a mistake in depriving him of his superannuation allowance, I think that they ought to grant him his superannuation from the date his services were dispensed with.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: The question of arrears did not present itself to my mind, and I have not passed upon it. I was under the impression that it would be satisfactory to Mr. Shields and his friends if the superannuation were allowed. The treasury board have not the power to make any allowance in respect of arrears. If, on consideration, it seems proper, in view of the representations made to us, to allow the arrears, we will have to ask parliament for an appropriation for that purpose.


Robert Abercrombie Pringle: That is one of the reasons I have brought the matter up-that it may require a vote of the House in order to give the arrears. I have a letter from Mr. Shields which I shall be glad to show the minister. While Mr. Shields appreciates the course taken by the government in granting his superannuation, he is very soli-cdtious about the arrears. I can say that the man requires them, for he has quite a family and is in ill health. He has been unable to do any work since his dismissal owing to an unfortunate accident which


John Graham Haggart: occurred while in the discharge of his duties.
Railways and Canals-Collection of revenue-general-Additional amount to persons employed in the public service and remuneration to any other persons for services rendered for and in connection with passing vessels through the canals of the government of Canada from midnight on Saturdays to midnight on Sundays, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act to the contrary, $4,000.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: This is made necessary by new work and increases on all canals. The amount will be required before the close of the fiscal year.


John Graham Haggart: This seems a large amount for one canal.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It is for all the canals.


John Graham Haggart: But the hon. minister has increased the vote in the main estimates from $15,000 to $19,000 for the canals generally, and this amount could not be needed for the Soulangas canal alone.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: It is not confined to that.


John Graham Haggart: The minister told us that the increase from $15,000 to $19,000 was due to the increase of work by reason of the Soulanges canal.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: No, there is naturally an increase on all the canals, the Galops, Farran's Point and all.
Mr.	TAYLOR.	Why should there be
additional work to what there was before V
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. I do not just recall what increases took place. But my hou. friend knows that on account of the increased wages and one thing or other, the expense of labour on our canals is growing.


George Taylor: Have the wages of the mem been increased ?
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. In some instances.


George Taylor: The increases must be very rare. I do not know of any case on the Iiideau canal.
The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND 'CANALS. I do not recall upon what particular	canals they	are.


George Taylor: Why is this proviso ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act ' here ?
The	MINISTER	OF	RAILWAYS	AND
CANALS. I suppose that, perhaps, there are men employed, who, not having passed the examination, could not be paid without this proviso.

m Mr. TAYLOR. But men do not have to 'pass an examination to work on the canals.


The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.: Some of them have to, I believe.
Post Office Department-To promote Henry Knauf to a second-class Clerkship, July, 1901, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $100.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the explanation of this ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Henry Knauf is a German. He was appointed to the service in 1877. His present salary is $1,000 a year. He is at the maximum of his class having been there from the 1st of July, 188S. He is a third-class clerk, and has not passed the qualifying civil service examination. He is an expert in the Scandinavian languages, German and Italian, and is used in the translation of dead letters.
Post Office Department-Salaries-to pay E. J. Cummings, a junior second-class clerk, in the Branch Dead Letter Office at Vancouver, provisional allowance from March 1 to June "0, 1902, at $180 per annum, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $60.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: This is a proportion of a provisional allowance, the officer being transferred to Victoria.
Post Office Department-Salaries contingencies -To pay E. L. Foley, a temporary writer of the Branch Dead Letter Office at Winnipeg, provisional allowance from' January 1 to Juno SO, 1902, at $120 per annum1, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $60.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: This is the same kind of case as the other. The officer is in Winnipeg.
To increase the salary of D. Sagala, a temporary packer from $420 to $600, from July 1, 1901, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, S1S0.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: This is the case of a man who has been in the service since 3890. and who, for six or seven years got no increase. He brought his case to my attention the other day, and I have given him an increase of $30 a year for the six years when he was without any increase.


George Taylor: I am, glad the hon. gentleman (Mr. Muloek) is repenting of his sins.
Post Office-To increase the salary of Mr. W. W. McLeod, post office inspector at Winnipeg, from $2,400 to $2,600, from March 1, 1902, $66.67.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: This officer became intitled to has increase after ten years' service on the 1st March of this year, and this gives him an increase at the rate of $200 from the 1st March, to the 1st July.
To reinstate Mr. Joseph N. A. Gingras, formerly a 2nd class railway mail clerk in the Quebec district, at his former salary of $720,
from July 1, 1901, and to restore him to his former status under the Superannuation Act of 1870 and its amendments, on payment of the deductions from salary prescribed thereby, his service to be considered as continuous, and to pay him a mileage allowance of $250.72 for the year ended June 20. 1902, making a total of $97.0.72, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service or Superannuation Acts to the contrary, $970.72.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Mr. Gingras was a railway mail clerk, and was accused of having purposely delayed the transmission of newspapers and having prevented them from reaching their destina- . tion. The case seemed to he made out and he was dismissed. But, after an appeal and a re-inquiry, the conclusion we reached was that the treatment he had received was rather harsh. He explained the charge away, and I have had him reinstated. This is to make up his back pay while he was in a state of suspension or dismissal.
To complete payments for post office service to June 30, 1902, $183,000.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Last year I was away, and the officers of the department did not take a supplementary estimate for enough to carry us through.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What will be the total deficit for this year ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Something under $200,000.


Mr. EARLE.: Before we leave the post office estimates I would like to call to the attention of the Postmaster General a defect in the mail service between Dawson and Victoria, B.C. I have just received today from the Wholesale Grocers' Exchange, Victoria, a letter which reads as follows :-


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is all over now, it is all arranged. It arose on account of our not being able to make an agreement with the White Pass Railway. That railway underwent a change, and we have a contract signed within the last week by them and instructions have gone forward.


Thomas Earle: If the mails are made up for Vancouver as formerly some delay will occur. What the people there suggest is that the mail from Skagway and Dawson for Victoria be made up at Dawson for Victoria, so that a steamer when calling at Vancouver may bring the mails with her.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I will endeavour to do that and to see that every steamer passing between Canada and the Yukon shall take the mails, whether the steamer be American or Canadian. I have not succeeded wholly with the Americans, but I have made an arrangement that we shall have at least one service a week both ways by one of the American ships that take their own mails.


Thomas Earle: I do not think the Postmaster General quite catches the point. The difficulty seems to be that the mails from the Yukon are made up for Vancouver, all the mails are distributed there, so that a steamer coming from Skagway for Victoria calls at Vancouver and delivers the mail there, remains half an hour or so and comes on to Victoria. Then the regular steamer, if she has left previous to that time, does not get to Victoria with the mail until the following night. So it puts us twenty-four hours behind Vancouver in receiving our mail.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We are now ready to go on with the items of the Minister of Agriculture ; but as he is not present and may come in later, in the meantime, it might meet the convenience of the House to discuss the Bill respecting labour troubles. The premier promised that if possible he would allow an opportunity to discuss it on the second reading. I do not know whether any hon. gentleman desires to diis'cuss it at this late hour; but if any one desires to do so, I will move that the committee rise.


George Taylor: Why take up the time when it is not the intention of the government to press the labour Bill?


Thomas Earle: There are very few representatives' of labour in the House to-night, I mean of the prominent representatives.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I think a great deal of good will come from a discussion. We do not wish to pass it through until it is fully discussed.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I thought it was already sufficiently discussed, because the government have relegated it to the next session.


Mr. INGRAM.: I do not think many members have had sufficient time to study it


Edward Frederick Clarke: When was the announcement made that an opportunity would be given for further discussion?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: On the first reading. The government was asked if an opportunity would be given for a second reading, and the premier said if possible.


George Taylor: I would suggest to the Postmaster General, who is leading the House now, that if no other business is ready, we should take up the Bill of the hon. member for Montreal (Mr. Roddick), who is very anxious to have it passed.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It would not be advisable to take it up without notice.
Board of Civil Service Examiners, $200.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought it was' announced that that item would be dropped.


Hon. Mr. MULOCK.: 


George Taylor: Why hold civil service ex, animations now when thousands of people have passed and there are no places for them ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It was ever so.


William Manley German: Civil service examinations have been advertised in the papers for May and November. There are a large number of young men in the country who desire to pass the civil service examination -promotion examinations', it is true, but even civil service examinations without promotion. I think it is wisdom on the part of this government and on the part of every government to adopt the principle that no person should be placed in the civil service without having passed an examination. I am free to admit that on the recommendation of party friends gentlemen are placed in positions in the civil service who have not passed an examination; but I think the government would do well to adopt the principle that no person could be appointed to the s'ervice who had not pasesd the examination. That would be an encouragement to young men to educate themselves for positions in the service, irrespective [DOT] of their party leanings. We have plenty of young men who would be glad to take positions in the service and who would qualify themselves therefor and make suitable employees, irrespective of their politics ; but the trouble is that they are set aside by party interest. I think that is wrong. I am free to say that if there were two gentlemen equally competent, one being a Liberal and the other a Conservative, so far as I am concerned, I would probably be inclined to recommend the Liberal. I suppose that is natural. But 1 would like to impress on the government the idea that it would be wise to make it a necessary qualification for all employees that they should have passed the civil service examination.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman ought to have taken the government to task a night or two ago when they passed an item here practically doing away with the Civil Service Act altogether.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the history of the last two years ought to be enough to disabuse the hon. gentleman of the impression that young men get into the service by reason of having passed the civil service examinations. Under the Conservative government no person could get into the service unless he had passed the civil service examination. But since this government has come into power that rule is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. The fact is, that there is scarcely an item in the estimates nowadays which does not contain the proviso ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act to the con-

trary,' showing that the appointment was made in open violation of that Act.
Charges of management-additional amount required for printing and engraving Dominion notes, $25,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was there a new contract entered into with this firm for the printing and engraving of Dominion notes ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it a private contract, or was it by tender, or how was it let ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It was a renewal of the old contract made with the American Bank Note Company. There is only one other company that could tender; that is the Burland Company, and for reasons which I am sure will be satisfactory it was not deemed advisable to invite that -firm to tender.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: T suppose the hon. gentleman is aware of the litigation pending between the government and the old contractors.


George Taylor: It is the government's fault.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is the fault of the old government, my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) means. If he is at all familiar with the case I am sure he will not press the question, but if he desires to press for the information I will give it to him.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is an expenditure involving $25,000.


Mr.   CLARICE@: It is a great deal more than that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I mean this estimate under consideration. That is a very respectable sum. It would be natural that we would anticipate when the government were expending that large amount of money that they would endeavour to expend it in an economical way, and to do that it would be fair to let the contract after open competition.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I agree with my hon. friend, but there are only two companies on this continent-I speak subject to correction, as I am not aware of more than two companies-that do this business. There is the American Bank Note Company, that recently established here, and there is the British American Bank Note Company, which for many years had the contract. In 1897 the contract was removed from the old company and transferred to the present contractors. It was then discovered that the old company had been guilty of a breach of contract. There Is no question about that. The contract required them to supply a steel engraved stamp to the Inland Revenue Department,
but instead of doing so they mixed up lithographed stamps to a very large amount, and this deception was practised without the knowledge of the Department of Inland Revenue. Neither the minister nor any of his officials was aware that the stamps delivered were mere lithographs instead of being steel engraved, and for many years they continued to pay for these stamps as if they were according to contract. After the discovery was made the matter was brought into court, and the Exchequer Court has given judgment against the contractors for $100,000. The matter is now in the Supreme Court, and in view of that kind of treatment received by the Dominion of Canada the present government are not prepared to invite these former contractors to tender for the performance of such work.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the total amount involved in the contract every year ? What is the amount paid the American Bank Note Company for work done under their contract ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It is a varying sum. It is so much an item, so much for printing postage stamps, so much for printing postal notes, Inland Revenue stamps, bank bills, &e. It is a schedule contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars annually though ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I do not think so much as that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: How much ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I cannot give my hon. friend the figures.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The contract is for five years and has been renewed ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: There are many establishments in Canada which, if an opportunity had been given to put in tenders for this work, would have done so. It seems to me to be a departure from the professions which the hon. gentleman made and which his party made many years ago that great amounts of public work should be given out without public competition. It is not at all creditable to the Dominion of Canada that work of such a nature should be done by a .firm which is practically a foreign firm and that a very large portion of this work-the finer portions of the work-should be done in the United States.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is not correct.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It was correct when the contract was first made and we have no evidence that it is not correct now.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the hon. gentleman states on his own knowledge that it is not

correct, of course, I will have to withdraw that statement. Does he state that none of the work of this contract in engraving is done in the United States ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: X do not see the work done, but I believe that none is performed except in Ottawa. When the contract was taken in the first instance, until the company got into working order, a very limited portion of the work was allowed to be done in the United States, the engraving of the die and the steel rolls, but I have seen in regard to work for my department part of that work done, and I see no reason wrhy the same should not be done in the case of bank notes. My hon. friend talks of this company engraving bank notes as if it were simply a matter of printing posters for ordinary purposes. It is a very responsible position, and many of the banks of Canada at all events show their appreciation of the standing of this company by employing them to do their work. My hon. friend talks about the company as if they were here to-day and away to-morrow. They have invested large sums of money in permanent plant in the city of Ottawa, they have erected a handsome building and they own this property in freehold. At one time this company did a great deal of engraving in New York for the Canadian banks, which work has now been transferred to Canada, and this company here is doing a great deal of bank note engraving for the banks of Canada which was formerly done in the city of New York.


Edward Frederick Clarke: It is an unjustifiable thing to renew a contract of this kind without ascertaining whether or not there are other firms doing similar work in Canada.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The hon. gentleman's predecessors for a generation renewed the contract with the British American Bank Note Company without a tender.


Edward Frederick Clarke: And the only apology that the hon. gentleman has to make is that for twenty years his predecessors in office did what he is doing now.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, we have a very much better contract.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What was the difference?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: Then this contract made with the new company meant a great deal where there was a difference between the two companies of $165,000.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL .: For five years.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If the hon. gentleman was expending $165,000 of his own money I think he would not renew a contract without endeavouring to ascertain whether the Mr. CLARKE.
work could be done by other firms for a less amount. When the contract was offered to the American Bank Note Company, I know a firm in Toronto which sent its representative down here to make inquiries in respect to the work, a firm that was doing the highest class of engraving that can possibly be done, and a Canadian firm, and I think before the contract for this work which will involve $1,000,000 of an expenditure was renewed, an opportunity should have been given to Canadian firms to undertake the work and do it in this country. If the government had then found that the work could not be done as well as it is being done now, or that It could not have been done for less money than is being paid now, the government might have been justified in renewing the contract, but in the absence of that the government cannot justify its action in renewing for five years without tender a contract made five years ago involving such a vast expenditure of public money. On no business principle can the government justify its action in renewing for five years without tender, a contract which involves such a vast expenditure of public money. When the Postmaster General (Hon. Mr. Mulock) was in opposition he did not hesitate to condemn loudly, and properly in my judgment, anything of that kind if it was perpetrated by his political opponents.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am glad to learn of a change of heart in the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke). We have got a most profitable contract-


Edward Frederick Clarke: For the firm.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We have a most profitable contract for the_ Dominion of Canada, a contract which saves thousands of dollars a year as compared with the contract price paid by the late government. When the present government made this contract by which we got cheaper and better work none were louder in denouncing us because we did not continue with the old contractor without renewal than this hou. gentleman and his colleagues.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes. 1 sat in this House and heard it. The hon. George E. Foster denounced us because we had passed over the British American Bank Note Company which had forfeited any claim to the consideration of the government, and my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) has the coolness to stand up here and to tell us to go back to the old system of for twenty years renewing a contract at improvident prices. If the hon. Minister of Finance were present he would be able to give evidence to show that the terms of this renewal are fair and reasonable. The company about which my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) speaks so flippantly is a very solvent

company, highly respectaole company, and it is doing the most confidential work in Canada for those who desire it. The banks in Canada know their own business, and if they think this company is sufficiently responsible, sufficiently reliable, and sufficiently trustworthy to be given this very delicate work of engraving bank notes, we think so to. There might be other companies that would in time grow up to the situation, but it is not every even well equipped engraving house to-day that could commence manufacturing bank bills and stamps at once. In the old country the government continues for years and years with the same contractor because of the confidential relations which exist between the two.


Mr. HOLMES.: I had the opportunity-as my hon. friend (Mr. Clarke) might have had the opportunity if he wished to avail himself of it-of visiting the bank note establishment the other day. If the hon. gentleman would visit that office he would find that all the work is done in Canada,, the steel engraving and the printing of the bank notes, by Canadians, with the exception of possibly the manager, the assistant manager, and two of the employees, who are Americans. Otherwise all the work is done by Canadian labour. In addition to doing the work for the Dominion government and apparently doing it satisfactorily, this concern is doing work for nearly all the banks in the Dominion at the present time. I am surprised at the statement made by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) in view of the fact that he is a practical printer and knows as well as any man in the House that there are only two establishments in Canada that do work of that kind. You might ask for tenders all you like, but you would only receive tenders from the two establishments that are in Ottawa. I believe that the government has given a good reason why it was not advisable for them to ask for tenders from the old firm.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I am much obliged to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Holmes) for telling me how I should act and where I should go to obtain information. But, in talking the way he does he is simply beating the air.
I say that in a matter involving this very large expenditure extending over a period of five years, the government should have called for tenders as the hon. gentleman would do himself if lie were contracting to have such work done for him. How does he, or how does the minister know that Canadian firms would not put themselves in a position to do this work just as satisfactorily as the American firm if the Canadian firms were given the opportunity? How does he know that if tenders had been asked for Canadian firms would not have put themselves in a position to provide plant to do this work ? Is it a business proposition that in a contract involving nearly a $1,000,000 the government should renew ^ 130
the contract to the same firm without ascertaining whether any responsible and reliable Canadian firms could do the work ? Common business principles would lia-qe dictated the ordinary method of calling for tenders in such a case. I am surprised that a man like the hon. member (Mr. Holmes) should justify such action on the part of the government. I am prepared to say that if reasonable notice had been given and tenders asked for, more than two Canadian firms would have put in tenders for this contract.


Robert Holmes: I am not surprised to hear that the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Clarke) knows it all. No doubt, the valuable information that he has given to the House at different times has convinced the people of the country that he knows it all. However, there are certain things which even gentlemen in the city of Toronto can learn, but they require humility in order to learn it, and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) who assumes a very patriotic air now is not consistent in the theory he is putting forth. I did not intend to give him information, I simply wanted to convey the idea that the information is available to any member of the House who wants to learn. Of course there are some people who are too big to seek information, and who simply make recriminations in this House for political effect, and for what they can gain by appealing to public sentiment and to things of that kind. Some of us may be sincere in the advocacy of certain principles, and some of us may be talking to the gallery as certain people from Toronto do occasionally. So far as this not being a business proposition is concerned, I assert that the government did what was perfectly right and that the people of Canada will endorse their action in renewing the contract to that firm. When the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) talks about beating the air, I can tell him that no body beats the air more than he does when he speaks of calling for tenders, because he knows perfectly well that there are only two firms in all Canada who would entertain a proposition involving this very large expenditure. But the trouble with our friends on the other side of the- House is, that this business government was able to make a contract in this manner which saved the country $150,000 in five years, and were able to renew it on equally good terms.


Edward Hackett: Why should not this government give a Canadian company employing Canadians an opportunity to tender for this work.


Robert Holmes: This company employs
Canadians.


Edward Hackett: Why should not the contract be given to a company having its interests in Canada, in preference to an American firm ?	The hon. gentleman,



speaking from a patriotic standpoint, says that we saved $150,000 in five years on this contract. But how inconsistent are hon. gentlemen opposite. The Minister of Railways said the other day that he had given a contract to a Canadian company to provide steel rails at $8 a ton more than they could be purchased for outside, in order to encourage Canadian industry. What did that cost the people of this country ? $175,000 a year. And yet these hon. gentlemen say that we are not patriotic, because we would not save $30,000 a year on this bank note business, toy giving the contract to an American company. If these hon. gentlemen are going to toe patriotic in one way, let them be patriotic in another. If they are going to spend $175,000 a year for the purpose of producing steel rails in Canada, why! not spend $30,000 a year for the purpose of producing these Dominion notes in Canada ? If the minister or his followers cannot produce any better argument than that, they are out of the race.


Robert Holmes: Will the hon. gentleman answer me a question ? Who is manufacturing steel rails in Canada ?


Edward Hackett: Clergue.


Robert Holmes: Well, Clergue is an American citizen who has come into Canada and is developing the industries of Canada. The American Bank Note Company have also come into Canada and are developing our industries in the same way.


Edward Hackett: The argument of the hon. gentleman is that Canadians are no good, and we have to depend on Americans to come in and develop our resources.


Robert Holmes: The argument is as good in one case as in the other.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The hon. gentleman does not seem to realize yet the very grave Injustice that is being dome to Canadians, especially to Canadians in the engraving business, bv the course pursued by the government. I have not made any charge that the work toeing done at present is not well done. I did not raise that question at all. 1 raised the question whether it was a good business proceeding, one that wmdd commend itself to the approval of any business man in Canada, that a contract involving $700,000 or $800,000 or $1,000,000 should have been entered into by this government, a renewal contract too, without their asking for competitive tenders. There is not a gentleman on that side of the House who. if his own money were at stake, would not seek by public competition to get the work done Iowa4 than it Is done now. But no Canadian firm has been given any opportunity to put in a tender. I do not profess to know as much as my horn friend from West Huron (Mr. Holmes) of the number of firms in Canada which are competent to do this work; but I repeat that if an opportunity had been given to Canadian firms to com-


Edward Hackett: pete for this work, more than two tenders would have been put in. I noticed that when this matter was up dm the House in 1897, a letter was read from Sir. George R. Barber, of Georgetown. He said that be and his associates would have put in a tender, If an opportunity had been given them. I do not know whether the hon. member for West Huron can give me any information about printing of this character. On certain classes of printing I will not take any information from him, though be may speak upon other classes. But I know that there are firms in Toronto and Montreal which, if opportunities had been given them, would have been only too glad to have put in bids for this work, and would have done just as good work and given just as good satisfaction as this American firm is doing; and I know no good reason why Canadian firms should not have been given that opportunity. If a proposition of this character had been submitted to bon. gentlemen opposite for their approval when they were on this side of the House, they would have been loud in their denunciation of it. It is not a business proposition nor one that ought to be supported by the members of this House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I cannot state the! amount of the annual expenditure under each.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Could the minister get the information and give it to us at some later stage ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Certainly.
Additional amount required for clerical assistance in connection with the issue and redemption of Dominion notes, $1,150.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the course of a discussion which,took place in this House some time ago, a number of the members recommended the redemption of many of the notes which are in circulation. There is an opinion prevalent throughout the country that many of these old notes are not only very unclean, but tend to disseminate disease; and I am inclined to believe that there is some truth in that opinion. In fact, it is believed that small-pox has been transmitted by means of Dominion notes or bank notes sent through the mails. If that is the case, it seems to me a matter of importance that these old notes should be redeemed and replaced by new ones. Has the minister made any arrangement for that purpose, and if so to what extent ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The difficulty lies, not with the government, but

with the public, who have the remedy in their own hands. The government issue notes with a view to providing the public with clean notes, and if the public will ask the banks for clean notes, -they will be entitled to get them. The government is not a bank of issue, but all the banks are supplied with clean bills.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there anything in the Bank Act that requires the banks to supply the public with clean notes ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No, there is not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then it would be optional with the banks whether they would do it or not ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: They will always do it, if asked.


Albert Edward Kemp: It seems to me that from a sanitary standpoint the time has come when the government should consider this matter seriously. I have consulted one or two medical gentlemen on the subject, and they are of opinion that the SI and $2 Dominion notes are most effective disseminators of disease. The $5 and $10 bills of the chartered banks are not quite so objectionable from a sanitary standpoint as the bills issued by the government, and it seems to me that the government should take some steps to see that the old bills are called in and cleaner bills issued in their place. The danger is one that does not exist to the same extent in European countries, where silver and gold are used more extensively as it does in this country and in the United States, where bills are the -common currency.


William Manley German: The hon. gentleman must surely understand that $1 and $2 bills are in very much more general circulation than $5 bills. Bills of $1 and $2 are very much more in circulation than those of $5. They are used continually and pass practically as change, whereas $5 bills are not used so often, and consequently are not so much defaced. As has been said by hon. gentlemen opposite, something should be done to enforce the calling in of those defaced and dilapidated bills. We have too many of them in this country. Besides it depreciates our bills in the United States. It is difficult enough to get our Canadian bills taken at par in the United States, and much more difficult when they are defaced and dilapidated. I do not know what remedy we could apply. As stated by the hon. the Postmaster General, the remedy is in the hands of the banks and the people who use the bills. If the people would return those worn-out bills and ask for gold instead, to which they are entitled, that possibly might bring about a change. It is a matter, in any case, which should receive the consideration of the government, and I hope the government will bring about a change, so that we will not have so many defaced bills in circulation as at present.
136J
High Commissioner's Office-Further amount required for contingencies, rent, &c., $7,800.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this for additional buildings 7


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: But this is to complete expenditure which may take place between now and the 30th June.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: There has been an enlargement of the premises. We have now a much larger portion of the building on Victoria street. The department of immigration is on one side of the building on tne same flat as the High Commissioner's office, and the premises have been extended in the rear as well. There is a larger staff in the High Commissioner's office and a larger proportion of the building rented.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that additional room necessary for Mr. Preston's office ? I understand that he is not using the same office as before.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Last
year he had it there. I do not offer those explanations as authoritative, but I am familiar with the conditions there and I know that there have been changes, and I think that these account for the increase.
House of Commons-additional amount required for stationery, $2,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose this is in connection with our annual supply?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Yes,
under the control of the committee.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We had some supplies last year, in which there were a lot of nick-nacks which were of no use. Of course, some of the stationery was valuable, but some of the things supplied were merely an expenditure of public money to very little purpose.

Additional amount for publishing the debates,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That seems a very large amount to require at the end of the year.


William Manley German: That item could be considerably reduced if hon. gentlemen opposite would not talk so much.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the cause of this very large amount for one year ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I am not in a position to give the explanation, and the chairman of the Debates Committee is not present If the hon. gentleman wishes we will let the item stand.
Item allowed to stand.
Legislation-library-To provide statutory increases for two messengers, Albert Beaudry and Thomas Lynton at $30 each, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $60.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why is the provision ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act ' necessary here ?
The POSTMASTER' GENERAL. I cannot give the hon. gentleman that information. The Library Committee, which is a joint committee, has made this recommendation.
Legislation - general- printing - Additional amount required, $35,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this to pay for contracts outside, or is it to meet expenses of the Printing Bureau 1


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: As this is for legislative printing, I take it that it would be for the Bureau.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there any minister present who can tell us whether we get much printing done outside of the Bureau ? We see the statement made In the press that that is the case. If we knew the facts, we should be better able to estimate whether the Bureau is as valuable as we anticipated that it would be.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: For my own department, I have had only one item of printing done outside of the Bureau. That was a money order book, and it was done outside for the double reason of economy, and because the Printing Bureau had not the facilities and desired us to get it done elsewhere. I believe that some departmental reports, in cases of urgency, have been printed outside. The Secretary of State, who is in charge of the Printing Bureau, reports that the demand has outrun the facilities of the Printing Bureau and the premises should be enlarged. The King's Printer himself is compelled to request that some of the printing be done outside.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I see it stated in the press-it may not be correct, but I think it must be nearly correct or no editor would


Thomas Simpson Sproule: publish it-that $75,000 was paid for printing to one newspaper company alone. It seems hardly economical to get our printing done outside when we have a Printing Bureau equipped and running, and all it needs is enlargement.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It would take a lot of money to enlarge it.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Well, $75,000 is quite a sum of money to ordinary mortals.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: But after you pay for the enlargement, the printing costs money even if it is done in the Bureau. I understand the printing now required exceeds the capacity of the Bureau.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Then, enlarge the Bureau.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: That is not so easily done.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: It is as easy to do that as to spend these enormous sums in getting printing done outside.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: No doubt it will come to that.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Then, it would be better if if came to it when the government have the money to spend. We all know that the pendulum will swing the other way and by and by, they will have less money.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: But this is a government of economy, you know, and we do not wish to spend so much.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: But, if the minister would explain more, and talk less it would save time. And I hope the hon. gentleman will accept that in as good a spirit as it is given. My contention is that it would be far better to spend the mon4y in enlarging the Printing Bureau now that the revenue is buoyant, rather than spend the money on printing outside and still have the Bureau incomplete when the revenues are lower. It would be better to spend the money in this way than in the-would it be unparliamentary, Mr. Chairman, to say in the foolish way, in which much of it is now spent ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: I guess we can stand that.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: Here is the fact staring us in the face that the Printing Bureau needs enlargement. When the Postmaster General sat on this side of the House he used to tell us that the public buildings here were filled from garret to cellar with officials. And now, not only are these public buildings filled, but the government is spending $18,000 in rent for other buildings, and, unless they are renting buildings that they do not need, these also are filled from garret to cellar with officials. Would it not be better to provide proper accommodation in buildings owned by the government, instead of paying rent 7 And, in the same

way, would it not be better to enlarge the Printing Bureau than to pay these large sums for printing done outside ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thinls that, when we come to concurrence, information ought to be given as to what printing is done outside and what we pay for it annually, specifying the various lines of printing and giving the names of parties to whom the money is paid. The item we are now discussing is only one, and I suppose there are others in the main estimates for some other purposes. Also, we ought to know how many are employed in the Printing Bureau. Will the minister give this information on concurrence ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: As far as possible, yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: For many years past the departmental reports have never been issued at as early a date as were the reports for the year ending 30th June last. This was due to the fact that the copy was sent to the Bureau in reasonable time. * Moreover, the copy was not sent in simultaneously so as to choke up the Printing Bureau, but was sent in in good time, and so the work was expeditiously turned out and the reports distributed much earlier than has been the practice for years. We have a very efficient and well equipped Bureau, but some additions will have to be made. Any one who knows anything about the Bureau will admit that the work can be done there as well and more cheaply than by giving it out to political friends of the government throughout the country. The Bureau was established for the very purpose of getting the work better done and more efficiently done, and the country is not getting the full advantage of the Bureau and of the large sums expended upon it if all the public printing is not done there. If it required a small additional expenditure to equip the Bureau even more efficiently than it is at the present time, the money would be well spent. An additional space is required for the work of the bindery, and an additional space for the press department. The expenditure of the small sum required to equip and complete these departments would enable a much larger amount of work to be done. It certainly can be done as efficiently and more economically than when it is given out. The Bureau ought to be employed to its full capacity in doing the public work.
Franchise Act-Additional amount required, $2,000.


The PRIME MINISTER.: That is to pay for the municipal lists which are procured from the registrars.


George Taylor: In connection with the printing and distribution of the blue books,
I have been informed that there is a general complaint amongst the memtjers of the Conservative press in respect to the giving
out of these blue-books. Under the late government when a book was issued it was handed immediately to the members representing both political parties, at the same time. Now, the members of the Reform press are furnished with an advance copy a day or two before the Conservative press. That is the complaint made by the representatives in Ottawa of the Conservative press. The Reform reporters have the benefit of a day in advance. That is something that was never done under the late Conservative government.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Speaking under correction, I do not believe that this reported abuse can be substantiated. It may be there is an odd case, but that was not the intention at all events. The order is that all newspapers should be treated alike.


George Taylor: I hope the hon. gentleman will see that the order is carried out better.


Mr. MORIN.: I would like to know why it is that the ' Hansard ' printed in French is so late in being distributed to the members. I only see the French 'Hansard ' ten or twelve days after the speeches have been delivered, and during the recess I do not receive it for four or five months. I do not see why it should not be sent to us in a couple of weeks at least. Also in regard to the Auditor General's Report; I was down there a couple of weeks ago to see if there were any printed in French, and was told that they would not be ready for four or five months. If they are not ready for four or five months it is no use to have them at all. When we come here at the beginning of the session we cannot get a French report of any kind.


The PRIME MINISTER.: My hon. friend iknows that so far as the debates of the House are concerned, the government has nothing to do with them. That is a matter in regard to which he should lay his complaints before the Debates Committee, and I have no doubt the committee will look into it. With regard to the Auditor General's Report, I do not believe the fault lies with the Printing Bureau. If there is any delay in the work it must be occasioned by the translators, because I am pretty sure that as soon as the copy goes into the Bureau it is quickly disposed of.


Jean-Baptiste Morin: I have been told by the translators that as soon as the House closes a good many of them are dismissed from the service. I was told so to-day. I was told that if they were kept on. a few weeks longer the French report would be printed in a couple of weeks.
Gratuities for ballot designs partially adopted,


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The Secretary of State informs me that when the amended Franchise Act was passed we

adopted to some extent the designs of some gentlemen who had submitted ballots. I do not think it would be correct to say that any one gentleman's ballot had been adopted, but there were a number of free designs, and the intention of the Secretary of State is to distribute this vote among the persons whose designs were used.
Trade and Commerce-Bounties on iron and steel-to meet expenditure in connection with the administration of the Act, $2,000.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The administration of this Act, which was formerly in the Customs Department, is now transferred to Trade and Commerce.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is to meet the cost of administration in connection with the bounties on iron and steel ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The business was formerly managed by the Department of Customs. It has been transferred to the Department of Trade and Commerce and this amount is necessary to enable the minister to appoint officials to make a close inspection of the work that is going on so as to check the accounts.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not know whether we can get the information in connection with this item, but I would like to know how much we are to pay this year for bounties on iron and steel. It was expected a year or two ago that the amount would run up very rapidly. That information will enable us to estimate the rate of progress that is being made in the output.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It has increased very rapidly. The amount for the current year will be very considerable, and the amount in the coming year will be very much larger. It will be far in excess of what we have yet paid. If my hon. friend desires the information I will have a statement prepared for concurrence.


George Taylor: Or on the supplementaries.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In any case I will see that the information is furnished to the hon. gentleman.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see by to-day's paper that the Clergue syndicate has commenced to turn out steel rails. Is there any bounty on steel rails ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: No, the bounty is paid on steel ingots and beyond that there is no bounty paid.
For expenses of reception to Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York-additional amount required to pay expenses of royal tour in September and October, 1901. (Payments out of this vote, not exceeding ini all $700, may be made to any members of the Civil Service, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act), $338,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this the whole amount?


The PRIME MINISTER.: That is all.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There was an amount in the main estimates last session of $120,000. This is the balance which winds up the whole thing.
To pay for steam service between Canada and France, six round trips performed in the year 1900, prior to date of contract, $16,066.66.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When did this contract commence ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This contract was made several years ago with the French line. In this particular year the company were not able to make the number of trips required, and the Auditor General held that unless the whole service were performed he had no power to approve of the payment of part of the subsidy. This vote is to pay them for the number of trips they actually made.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose the hon. Minister of Finance could scarcely give us much information as to the amount of trade that has been carried on as a result of our subsidizing this line, or as to whether we have been able to create a trade with France in addition to that which was hitherto carried on ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I could not tell my hon. friend.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Up to the present time, I am sorry to say, I do not think it has resulted in developing very much business, but I may say that I hope we will be able to do better in the future. The expectations have not beeu realized that were entertained at one time.
To provide for the expenses of t.he Prime Minister in connection with the Coronation of His Majesty, $8,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is only one item. Is there not another item in connection with this ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Yes, the next item.
To provide for the expenses of ministers in connection with the colonial conference in London, $12,000.


George Taylor: Will that be enough ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is a very modest sum.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the right hon. Prime Minister be able to give us any information as to the line that will be followed at the conference ? Can he give the committee any information regarding it beyond what he has already given the House ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: My hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) knows that upon the invitation of the Imperial government, the Prime Ministers of the self governing colonies will meet in London with the view of discussing


Hon. Mr. FIELDING.: certain subjects. We have already given our views as to the character of the discussion which will take place at the conference. I should also say that at the initiation of the Canadian government a conference is to take place between the colonies of Australia. New Zealand and Canada. It has been decided that the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) and the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Paterson) shall represent the government at that conference. As to what shall be the subjects which will be debated, I may say that the conference will be held with a view of developing trade between the self governing colonies, between Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and we hope we will be able to make arrangements with that end in view. As to that, however, we are in the dark yet. Australia has just adopted a new tariff and New Zealand has a tariff somewhat similar to our own. All their revenues are raised by customs duties. 1 believe from what I have been told by the hon. Postmaster General and from the report which has been placed on the Table of the House by the hon. Minister of Finance, that the prospects of our being able to do a large business in Australia looks very bright. Almost everything they require to supply themselves with, Canada can supply. New Zealand cannot perhaps afford such a large field but we hope also to do something there. We are of the opinion that if any trade can be developed we will probably have to subsidize a line of steamers, and we have thought, that possibly, by subsidizing a line of steamers between Canada and Australia, taking in South Africa, a large business might be developed. We have great hopes of South Africa. When the war is over, and the time cannot be very far off now, this country will require to be supplied with almost everything, and it is our intention to push matters in that direction as far as we can. My hon. friend asked me:	What
is the line I will take. 1 do not know that X can say much more than I have already said. The line must be general. We are there simply to offer and receive suggestions. The only thing we have in view is to develop trade by two means:	By trade
preferences and by subsidizing lines of steamers.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose the Prime Minister will adhere to his determination that he will not discuss the defences of the empire.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I have not changed my mind upon that subject.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: You do not want preferential trade, then ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I would be-very glad to have it.


Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria).: I do not know how far the Prime Minister may be able to
adhere to his present opinions, because if the premiers of the other colonies begin to discuss the question of defence, perhaps that question may be forced to some extent upon the premier of Canada. That is a subject in which we are all interested. I have been studying the tariff of the Commonwealth of Australia to some extent, and in the matter of dry goods I find that in several instances it is about 10 per cent less than our own tariff. The duties on carpets and flannels are 15 per cent, while our rates are nearly double that. I believe that this is an opportune time for Canada to extend her export trade to South Africa and to Australia. It is all very well for us to expound the sentiment of Canada for Canadians, but we will never build up a large export trade if we confine ourselves to that idea. For those who are complaining of the tariff in connection with the manufacture of woollen goods, 1 think this is the time for them to avail of the opportunity of extending their trade to these colonies. There must be direct communication to enable them to do so-I was going to say from the St. Lawrence-to South Africa and to Australia ; because it is impossible for them to send their goods to Vancouver en route to the east, and if they send their goods to New York they would have to pay the freight, and they would be met at once by the American manufacturers, who would have the advantage to that extent. The Americans are pushing their trade in Australia with great energy, and it is therefore to our advantage to encourage this trade now, so tliat Canada may get hold of a large portion of it. There is scarcely anything produced in Canada but there is a market for it in Australia, provided you have the means of conveying your goods direct from our own ports.


Mr. BROCK.: I was very much delighted to hear the remarks of the Prime Minister regarding his visit to England. When we speak of extending our trade to Australia ,and South Africa, it is of a great deal more importance for us at the present time to endeavour to do our own trade at home amongst our own people. How can we expect to export goods when we cannot even manufacture goods for our own people in Canada ? In one of our greatest industries we find our own market at the present time flooded with foreign goods and goods of British manufacture. The United States are doing a large business in Australia, but they first of all captured their own market and made their own market impregnable. Canada can never do a foreign trade while the Canadian market is being invaded in the very lines which we want to export. I read with a great deal of pleasure a letter from a gentleman in Australia-I think a son of the Hon. Mr. Ross-and that letter had many strong points in favour of our attempting to do business there, which ap-

pealed to me as a Canadian. But lie forgot, as our own government are forgetting, that we have not even got our own market. The government are so afraid of offending members on that side of the House who say they have come here with a mandate from the people to advocate free trade. Well, so long as they are afraid of that element, we can do no export trade from Canada. First of all, my advice, very humbly submitted to the Prime Minister, is to take every means to protect our own markets for our own people, and when we have risen to the elevation that the manufacturers of the United States have risen to, and when we commence to overflow with our own products, then we will be able to capture other markets. The time of the most talented business man who will go to England will be wasted in attempting to advocate a foreign business unless he can first say that we are supplying our own market. Until that is done, there is no use wasting time attempting to do a foreign business. You may subsidize all the steamers you like to Australia, but we must have a return cargo. You are preventing us from doing a woollen business in this country, and one of the great staples of Australia is wool. ITow can we use their wool if we cannot capture our own market for woollen goods. If you are going to give a preference, as our respected premier did to the manufacturers of Yorkshire-and Canada is just as much a part of the empire as Yorkshire is-you hamper us in our own market and you afford facilities to men who already have a great advantage in all the markets of the world. In order to enable us to do a foreign trade, we must have increased duties on certain lines of goods that we can manufacture here. When we have that, the Prime Minister can go in confidence to England, and he can talk to the other colonial delegates with something like business acumen. He can say to them : We are able to supply our own market; and they will not be able to throw in his face the remark: What are you talking about exporting goods to Australia for when you cannot supply your own market. I would humbly submit that this would be a better course for the premier than making all kinds of offers of preference. Let the right hon. gentleman provide, first of all, that the Canadian market shall be for the Canadian manufacturers.
The PKiiviE MINISTER. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Brock) will not succeed in throwing cold water on my enthusiasm. I do not hope, and perhaps it would not be wise for me to hope, that we should take wool to Australia any more than we can carry coal to Newcastle.


William Rees Brock: I said manufactured wool.


The PRIME MINISTER.: There are other things besides wool. I do not see why we Mr. BROCK.
. should not take cotton to Australia, as well as to China, and I understand we have had an export cotton trade to China for some time, and that a profitable business was done in that line a few years ago.


William Rees Brock: What are Canadian cotton stocks to-day ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: We are at the present time sending agricultural implements to Australia, and we are pretty successful competitors with the Americans, and I think we can even do better. But, of course, if my hon. friend (Mr. Brock) says we must have a high tariff in this country. I despair of having any preferences. 1 always understood, however, the argument of hon. gentlemen opposite was that if they adopt protection in England, then we might hope to have a preference, but now I understand from the hon. gentleman that he wants a high protection against England as well as against the rest of the world, and no preference with the mother countrv. If the views of my hon. friend should prevail I cannot see any future for this country. 1 am sorry to say for my hon. friend, and happy to say for myself, that I hold altogether different views from him on this matter.


William Rees Brock: Excuse ime for a moment. We are holding out very great inducements to bring in immigrants into this country, and at the present time we are succeeding in getting thousands of settlers in the Northwest. Is the right hon. gentleman perfectly satisfied that we should be always hewers of wood and drawers of water ? Is he perfectly satisfied that we in the east should not supply manufactured goods to those people on whom we are spending thousands of dollars to induce to settle in the North-west ? If this country can double its population, we shall be in a far better position to make a trade arrangement with the other dependencies of the empire and with the empire itself than we can, situated as we are at the present time. I do not always take my politics from the United States, but in this matter of trade they have shown themselves wise in their day and generation. They have protected their market almost to prohibition, and they are the most successful nation on the face of the globe to-day. Weak-kneed politicians on the other side of the House disparaged a high tariff and kept on disparaging it. Fortunately they remained in opposition. Unfortunately for us, weak-kneed people are in control of the government to-day; but the right hon. leader of the government, surrounded as he is by business men, may depend upon it that sooner or later that kind of politics will come to grief in this country. The larger the influx of population, the greater is the necessity of our being able to supply them with our own goods. If we are going to maintain anything like a patriotic sentiment in this country, we

must encourage our .people to buy goods in the country. The hon. gentleman says we can export cotton to Australia. I happen to deal in cotton myself, and I know something about the cotton trade. It is simply ridiculous for us to suppose that we can compete with Great Britain in sending cotton to Australia. The United States invariably gains entrance to a foreign market by slaughtering goods at prices much less than they are sold at in the United States. That is the only way they capture a foreign market as against England. We must first protect and capture our own market. We might have a chance of selling woollen goods in Australia. That is one of the manufactures in this country in which we excel. Our woollen manufacturers have the best machinery in the world and the best workmen, and are to-day turning out as fine goods as are .made in any part of the world. But our market is so limited that we are not able to make the goods in sufficient quantities to make the business profitable. We only ask the government to give us our own market. If they would only experiment on that one line of woollen goods, I will guarantee that in three years they would find it so successful that they [DOT]would repeat the experiment in a great many other lines.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria,N.S.) , There is a Canadian woollen factory which is exporting woollen goods to Huddersfield, the very centre of the woollen manufacture in Great Britain. There are other things that can be exported to Australia besides woollen goods, which appear to be of so much interest to some hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. There is one firm in Sydney, New South Wales, which would take a shipment of 2,000 tons of rolled paper for printing yearly. But that cannot be sent from here until we have direct communication. I saw it stated in * the papers that Canada is competing with Great Britain in Australia in agricultural implements, and I am sure that the Massey-Harris people are taking hold of the Australian trade very largely, and also the New Zealand trade. You will find their goods advertised in all the papers of those colonies. Then, a trade in boots and shoes, which are largely manufactured in Quebec and Montreal, could be cultivated there. You only require the steamers to carry goods backwards and forwards, and the trade will increase. When goods have to be sent via New York or via Vancouver over the Canadian Pacific Railway, it is impossible to extend our trade to that country.	[DOT]


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The valuable advertisement we have had in South Africa will, I am sure, result in giving us a very important and valuable trade there, if we take time by the forelock, and push it as much as possible. There is no doubt that the quantity of goods sent from Canada to that country during the last year or two has given us an introduction which with a little care should enable us to hold and considerably extend that trade in the future. In Australia, a friend of mine is erecting saw mills which are manufactured in Brantford, Ontario; and in a letter received from him during the last few weeks he states that there is a magnificent opening there for a great trade in that line as well as in agricultural implements; and he suggests that direct steam communication between Canada and that country would enable that trade to be extended considerably. lie says that people came hundreds of miles to see the band saw and' the mill after it was set up, the first one in the country; and the immense timber areas there 'would afford an opportunity for a large trade in that line as time goes on.
For payment in connection with construction of Marconi wireless telegraph station at Glace Bay, N.S., in accordance with agreement, $70,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I thought we voted an amount for that already.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The contract price is $80,000, which has been divided into two parts-$70,000 in these estimates and $10,000 in the estimates for the coming year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What in substance is the contract made with Marconi for establishing this station ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The papers were brought down, but I can state it briefly to my hon. friend. At the time Mr. Marconi was in Newfoundland, and in consequence of the difficulty he met with there, through the objections of the cable company, when it appeared that his experiments in America were likely to be frustrated, we thought it a wise policy to invite him to come to Canada and continue his experiments with the view of establishing a station. He came, and was very much pleased with the courtesy extended to him by the government, and that led to our making the suggestion that Canada should participate in his undertaking; and it was agreed that we should contribute this much towards constructing the station, and that he should give us an engagement that if the experiment proved successful, as we hope and believe it will, his company would carry trans-Atlantic telegraphic messages for us very much below the current cable rates. For instance, where cable rates are 25 cents a word, he gave us an engagement that he would charge us not more than 10 cents a word.
While there is a possibility that it may not prove a commercial success, we consider ourselves justified in encouraging a man of great scientific attainments in carrying out an experiment which, if successful, will be of great advantage to the whole


An hon. MEMBER.: This is a large sum.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: This represents very large transactions. It will be remembered that at the beginning of our operations in the Yukon, when there were no banking facilities in that country, we arranged with the Bank of Commerce to act as our agent, and agreed to pay it si commission, to be fixed from time to time by the Minister of Finance. The bank had to be content to accept his judgment as to what was a fair commission. The first year we had to pay a high rate, I think as much as one and a half .per cent, but we have been reducing the rate from year to year. This vote represents, in the first part, a commission of three-quarters of one per cent, and in the second a commission of five-eights of one per cent, so that we have been gradually reducing the amount, as the conditions in the Yukon were brought nearer the ordinary conditions of banking in the older portions of Canada.
To pay Nelson R. Butcher, stenographer, for transcribing of evidence in Kloclc vs. Baring, $64.50.


The PRIME MINISTER.: That was incurred at the time of the Nipissing election. A mandamus was issued to the returning officer and a law suit resulted, in consequence of which we have to pay that amount to the stenographer. The Minister of Justice could give the particulars to my hon. friend if he were here.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That was when the returning officer took the liberty of postponing the election after he had put up the notices.


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, it was when he had a new writ sent to him and he had to do what he did.
To pay Messrs. Browning and Senkler, Klock vs. Baring, Nipissing election, $60,00.


George Taylor: Why should the government have to pay that ?


William Stevens Fielding: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is a very unusual item. There was a good deal of dissatisfaction over that election, and somebody ought to be able to explain why we should pay this. If the election had been contested the expenses would have had to be paid by one or the other of the parties, but we are here called on to pay a share of the expenses.


The PRIME MINISTER.: As the Minister of Justice is not here, I would ask that the item be allowed to stand.
Item allowed to stand.
To pay expenses of Chinese and Japanese commission, $27,600.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there not another item in connection with that commission.


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, that will cover the whole expenditure.


George Taylor: Judging from the size of the report, it is very cheap.


Mr. MORRISON.: What is the total cost of the commission ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: 

To pay one half arbitrators and stenographers fee Eastern Extension Arbitration, N.S., $3,952.62.


The PRIME MINISTER.: There was an arbitration consented to between the Dominion and the provincial government with regard to the claim which the province advanced to a share of the award, on the ground that it was made in the favour of the provinces. No provision was made in the estimates for paying the cost of the arbitration, and in the meantime the provincial government paid the arbitrators and claimed one-half of the expense. It was agreed that each party should pay his own share of the expenses. This deals entirely with the expense of the arbitrators and the stenographers, and as regards the other items, each party paid his own fees.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I suppose that this is ,one of these cases which we are likely to have for years to come. We are likely to have another claim of the same kind from Prince Edward Island next year. Is there any truth in the statement that they are preparing to make a large claim and expect to be compensated ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: My_right hon. colleague, the First Minister, made a statement the other day concerning this matter. There has been a somewhat hazy claim regarding the fishery award in the air a long time, but no understanding whatever has been arrived at between this government and the provincial government of Prince Edward Island. An intimation has been given that if. in consequence of the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council as to the relative rights of the provinces and the Dominion, it is the

provinces and not the Dominion which should have received the award, then the fishery bounties which we have been allowing the provinces, and by means of which we have been practically paying them the interest on the award, will have to be stopped. Therefore, so far as the finances of the Dominion are concerned, the result that may be come to will be as broad as it is long. But no understanding whatever has been come to between the Dominion and the local governments upon the subject.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This was supposed to be a hazy account, but still, after a time it has materialized and we have to pay the money. Is the hon. gentleman aware of any claim having been made by the province of Quebec ? I saw an announcement to that effect in the local House.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: There has been no time within the last ten or twelve years when some one or other of the provinces has not claimed that it was the provinces and not the Dominion which should have received the amount of the fishery award, and the claim is just in the same position as it has been at any time in the past. There will always be somebody in some provincial legislature who will raise the claim that the provinces should receive the money and not the Dominion, and of course we cannot prevent any such pretention being raised. But all I can tell the hon. gentleman is that there has not been any understanding whatever arrived at between the government and the government of Prince Edward Island or any other province on the subject. These provinces are free to follow whatever course they think best in these matters.
Unprovided items-1900-1901-to cover unprovided items, 1900-1901, as per Auditor General's report, page C-4, $211,394.12.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is this for ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: A similar item has been in the estimates for many years, yet, it is but natural that hon. gentlemen should ask an explanation. If hon. gentlemen will turn to the Auditor General's Report at the piage cited, they will find that, in the course of the year there are cases of over expenditure, and, at the close of the year the Auditor General asks parliament to confirm these toy pasing a general vote aggregating these small (items

though some times they are not small. It is a confirmation of past expenditure not am appropriation of anything for the future.
Legislation'-House of Commons-additional amount for publishing the debates, $20,000.


Mr. SPEAKER.: There is usually a supplementary vote for the publishing of the debates. Last year, we asked $40,000. Generally the amount expended is $60,000. At the end of the session, we come to the House for a supplementary vote.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: If the amount required is $60,000, would it not be better to put that amount in the main estimates, and then we would know. This looks as if it were a shortage, a case of emergency, and not a thing expected.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I think that is a good suggestion. It ought to be done.


George Taylor: I think that will do now.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Adjourn.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: Would it not be better to take the census item ?


George Taylor: No, the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) is not here.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I hope, if we sit a little longer, to be able to lay on the Table further supplementary estimates. Perhaps, we might take concurrence and so advance the business. If a desire is expressed to have any item held over, of course, there will toe no objection.
Some resolutions reported.



SUPPLY-CONCURRENCE.

[Stage Direction]
House proceeded to consider resolutions reported from Committee of Supply'.
Charges of management-expenses in connection with the issue and redemption of Dominion notes, $70,000.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: We were to get some information about this item so, perhaps, it had better be left over.


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.: The Minister of Finance can give the information now.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It has been stated repeatedly that we have been paying very much less for this service than under the old contract. As the present contract has been renewed, the question arises how much we are paying now and how much we paid under the old contract; also for what length of time does this contract run.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We are paying in the aggregate more than we paid before, because the volume of business is greater; but we are paying lower rates than we were paying before. The contract has been laid on the Table, and all the details are available. The contract has been renewed for five years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the aggregate of the contract ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is not for a lump sum, but for such quantities as we may need from year to year, and these are to be supplied at rates specified. As I say, they aggregate much more because we are using a very much larger quantity, but the rates are decidedly lower.

Printing, printing paper and binding, $110,uOO.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is in connection with the Printing Bureau, and we were to get information on concurrence.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: If the hon. gentleman will let it stand until it appears in the ' Hansard ' in the morning, so that we may see what is required.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We want to find out how much printing was being done outside, what we are paying for it, what departments it is done for, and the number of hands that are employed in the Bureau.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: The order of my hon. friend is a large one, but I will do my best if the information is available.


George Taylor: I think we had better stop here as I know the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) has something to bring up.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I am sorry to find that the estimates have not yet arrived, and if we were to sit a little late I am advised that we could not get them. Under these circumstances I think we had better adjourn.
The PRIME MINISTER moved the adjournment of the House.


George Taylor: What is to be the business to-morrow ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: We will take up all the Bills that remain on the Order paper, then we will go into the estimates for agriculture, immigration and the interior.


George Taylor: Was the Prime Minister to give some information in reference to the Bill of the hon. member for Montreal, Ste. Antoine (Mr. Roddick) to-night ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I told him I thought we could take it up to-morrow evening.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, May 7, 1902.