1902-04-18

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved that the House go into Committee of Supply-
['I think we might very well now adjourn. In any case there is no quorum, and considerable business has been done.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of the Minister of Finance House adjourned at 12.20 a.m. Saturday.', 'Monday, April 21, 1902.']
Mr. JOHN CHARLTON (North Norfolk).: Before you leave the Chair, I desire to refer briefly to a matter of some importance to the country. I shall do so without making any motion in reference to the subject. I refer to the export of nickel from Canada.

This country, for fifteen years, has been the chief source of supply of nickel for the world. The business has been managed by our American friends in such a way that they have derived nearly all the advantages that could be obtained from the extensive and lucrative business of refining nickel and converting it into finished products. The American policy as regards the nickel industry is to admit the matte or refined ore free of duty, and to impose a very heavy duty upon the refined nickel, that duty amounting to $120 pel. ton. The result has been that our nickel deposits have been worked by the companies owning the mines in Canada, and the matte has been exported to the United States and refined there, giving to that country a very lucrative business. But the policy we have permitted the United States to pursue towards us in this matter is one that certainly has not been conducive to our own interests. The use of nickel promises to be increased, and therefore the control of the industry will be one of much greater importance in the near future than it has been up to the present. The manufacture of nickeliferous-pig iron will play a very important part in the manufacturing operations in connection with nickel in the very near future. Nickel is not only essential in the manufacture of armour plate, but it can be used to great advantage in material for bridges, in material for buiiu-ing, in fact for material for structural purposes generally ; and the control of the business will be a matter of great importance to whatever country obtains it. The United States capitalists and business men are quite wide awake to the advantages to be derived from the control of this business, and, within a few days a great nickel company has been formed in the United States entitled the International Nickel Company which is operating in connection with, and is largely controlled by the American Steel Corporation, commonly known as the Steel Trust. This new company I see by the ' Engineering and Mining Journal ' of April 5, was incorporated in the week of that issue of the ' Journal.' I will read one or two paragraphs from the article on this subject:
The International Nickel Company, which was organized this week in1 New Jersey, is the resuit of the plans to consolidate and control the nickel production of the world, to which reference has been made in1 our columns1 heretofore. The plan was originated by Colonel R. M. Thompson, president of the Orford Copper Company, and has been carried through chiefly by his efforts, that he has had recently the aid of Mr. Schwab, of the United States Steel Corporation and Colonel J. R. De Le Mar.
The purchase of the stock of the Nickel Corporation, Limited, from its London owners was one of the steps towards the present consolidation. The case of that company, which owns valuable concessions in New Caledonia, has already been dismissed in the 'Journal.'


John Charlton: The International Nickel Company will issue $12,000,000 in common stock; $12,000.000 in preferred stock, carrying six per cent dividends, non-cumulative, and $10,000,000 in1 five per cent bonds haying 30 years to run. Of the authorized capital stock $9,000,000 common and $9,000,000 preferred will he issued at once to acquire the properties named below. The remaining stock will he reserved for future use. . . .
The properties in which the new company will own1 a controlling interest-if not, the whole-are those of the Canadian Copper Company in Canada and the United States ; the Orford Copper Company, with extensive reduction works at Bayonne, N.J. ; the Anglo-American Iron Company and the Vermillion Manufacturing Company in Canada ; the American Nickel Works of Joseph Wharton in Camden, N.J.; the Nickel Corpors.tion, Limited, and the Societe Miniere Caledonienne in New Caledonia.
The Societe Le Nickel, with its extensive properties in New Caledonia and its reduction works In France, is not included in the combination. It is intimated, however, that the International Nickel Company has already a full underslaiding with the French Company. It is believed that a community-of-interest plan has been arranged which will regulate production, prices and a division of the markets.
Now, Mr. Speaker, we see here not a proposed but an actual formation of a great nickel trust, with a capital of $24,000,000, with bonds of $12,000,000, associated with the Steel Trust of the United States with a capital of $1,000,000,000, the avowed purpose of which is to acquire the nickel properties and control the nickel business of tbe world. Now the question is whether Canada is advancing its own interests in promoting the continuance of the policy which has hitherto prevailed with regard to the nickel industry. The question is whether it is in the interest of Canada to promote the exportation of nickel in its lowest prepared form, that is, in concentrated ore, to be refined in the United States, and to submit to the policy of the United States which imposes an enormous import duty upon refined nickel and admits the matte free. The result of this policy has been that we have never refined a ton of nickel in Canada. This great company has purchased the Copper Cliff property for $4,375,000, payable in stock partly, and partly in cash ; it has purchased other properties in Canada on conditions of a similar character.
The significance of the launching of this scheme, the significance of the formation of tliis trust, the fact that a great nickel iron company, in concert with the great Steel Trust of the United States, has been formed, is one which I think the government of the day is called upon to take into careful consideration. We have an interest in this matter, England has an interest in this matter. If the plans of this great international nickel corporation can be consummated and carried into effect, it will liave a very serious influence upon England's interest in the matter of acquiring armour plate ; it will liave a very serious influence upon England's interest and upon our own in the

matter of nickeliferous pig iron and the manufacture of .nickel steel for the various purposes that that metal is adapted to. Our interest in this matter, the interest of England in this matter, the scope and character of this combination or corporation, are matters to which, in my opinion, we are called to give careful consideration. I do not see, Mr. Speaker, why it is not possible to refine the nickel that is mined in our own country;
I do not see why, with the adoption of a proper policy, Canada cannot only control practically the nickel supply of ore, but also the nickel supply of the refined article. The government has in its own hands power to deal with this question, and it is unnecessary to introduce legislation. We have in the statutes, 60 and 61 Victoria, chapter 17, powers given with reference to the imposition of export duties which will enable the government, by a simple Order in Council, to meet the policy of the Americans by the imposition of an export duty upon nickel matte that will give us a chance to secure at least our share of the business of refining this metal in Canada.
In connection with tin's matter, while I am on my feet, there is another one which I wish to refer to, another case in which our respected and highly esteemed Uncle Samuel is a little too smart for us. When the United States acquired the Philippine Islands. I believe there was an explicit understanding or agreement with the English government that the policy of the United States with reference to the Philippines should not discriminate against other countries. I see that this matter lias been made, the day before yesterday, the subject of a parliamentary inquiry in the British House of Commons. Now, Sir, there was, during the Spanish occupancy of the Philippines, an export duty levied upon manilla of $7.50 a ton, or 37 cents per hundred weight. The imposition of this export duty has been continued by the Philippine government, and the tariff which embodies this provision among its other provisions, has received the sanction of the United States government. Manilla, under this tariff, pays this export duty of $7.50 per ton, and when it is imported into the United States, that export duty is remitted, and this provision places the American manufacturer of cordage in a position where he has the advantage over the manufacturers of cordage in other countries ; it is practically giving him a bonus of $7.50 per ton upon the cost of his raw material. Now the United States government are debarred by constitutional limitations from the imposition of an export duty, but they have taken a course which enables them to avail themselves of this export duty levied in the Philippine Islands as efficiently and completely as if it were levied by the United States government The Canadian importer of manilla cannot go to the United States and purchase manilla without having it subject to the export duty, he has got to pay an export duty, whether he buys manilla in
the Philippine Islands and imports it direct, or whether he buys it in the United States of the American importer ; and paying this export duty he is placed at a disadvantage with his American competitor in the sale of cordage in our own market.
Then with reference to manilla binder twine, this is admitted free. Now the Canadian producer of binder twine cannot compete with the American producer, because the American producer has the advantage at the outset of $7.50 per ton in the cost of the raw article. It has been supposed that there is reciprocity between the two countries in the exportation and importation of binder twine ; but an examination of the American tariff will show that the binder twine we can export to the United States free of duty must not contain manilla fibre, and if it does contain manilla fibre, then it goes under the head of unenumerated articles and pays 20 per cent. Now this is the condition in respect to this article, where we are placed at an unfair disadvantage. The imposition of export duties which are made to serve the purpose of the United States manufacturer by reducing the cost of his raw material to the extent of the export duty as compared with the cost of the raw material to all other countries, is a matter which, in my opinion, requires the attention of the government ; and this thing can only be met by countervailing duties. If we were to impose a specific duty of half a cent a pound upon cordage and upon binder twine, then we would equalize the conditions. and put our manufacturer upon the same footing with the American manufacturer. But unless we do this, the American manufacturer has the Canadian manufacturer at a disadvantage, and I hold. Mr. Speaker, that it is the duty of the government so far as it is able to do this, to protect our own interests. I place those facts with regard to these industries ; with regard to the nickel industries and with x-egard to the manufacturer of cordage and twine before the government for its consideration.
The MINISTER OP FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Charlton) has called attention to two matters of importance, both of which have somewhat engaged the attention of the government. With regard to the export of nickel, the House is aware that several years ago the government took power in the Customs Act to levy export duties on nickel, but after very full consideration of the question it was not deemed to be in the best interests of the mineral development of Canada that these export duties should at the time be imposed. The hou. gentleman (Mr. Charlton) represents that some new conditions have arisen through the creation of a great monopoly in the nickel industry, and so far as that presents any new aspect of the case the government would be bound of course to give it due consideration and will do so.

The other question to which my hon. friend has referred was brought before us recently both through notice in the public press and through representations made during the past few days by gentlemen interested in the business affected. It is a very curious condition of affairs ; I think unlike anything in connection with our tariff matters which has ever been presented to the House before.


John Charlton: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: All I can say for the present is, that the matter is engaging the attention of the government. Whether or not it is an evil which needs a remedy is a matter which will have to be determined at an early date, and I trust my hon. friend will not expect me to say more than that at the present stage.



Mr. N. BOYD (Macdonald).: I wish to ask the Minister of the Interior if he will lay on the Table at an early date the report of the commission that was appointed to inquire into the irregularities in regard to school lands sales 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: Was a return ordered by the House 7


Nathaniel Boyd: I do not think so.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If the hon. gentieman desires, I will have it brought down.


Nathaniel Boyd: I hope it will not take too long.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Civil government : Department of Indian Affairs, including J. D. McLean at $2,400, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $55,167.50.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The net increase here is $4,097.50, of which $3,200 is for the appointment of a deputy superintendent general of Indian affairs. There are 33 statutory increases of $50 each ; one at $25, and one at $12.50 ; increase of the salary of the secretary, $100, making a total of $5,027.50. There is a reduction caused by the removal of a first-class clerk and the appointment of a second-class clerk in his place, leaving a saving of $400. There is the difference between a third-class clerk who got $1,000 and who has been superannuated owing to ill health, and a new junior second-class clerk at $000, giving a saving of $400. A clerk now deceased got $750, and the clerk appointed in his place gets $600, giving a saving of $150. This leaves a total saving of $950, which deducted from the gross increase of $5,027.50, leaves the net increase Hon. Mr. FIELDING.
$4,097.70. Respecting the appointment of a deputy superintendent general of Indian affairs ; we have not had for the last five years a separate officer occupying that position. The deputy minister of the Interior discharges the duties of the office. If the work of the Department of the Interior had remained in the condition in which it was when I took office it would be quite possible to go on without making this appointment ; but the increase in the work of the department has been so enormous that it is absolutely impossible for the deputy minister of the Interior to give all the attention to that work which it should receive. There are many important matters in the Indian Department which ought to receive that attention which it is impossible for myself or for Mr. Smart to give them, for the reason that they are matters which would necessarily take considerable time in considering to deal with properly. I refer more particularly to disputed questions between the Department of Indian Affairs and the various provinces. There is no department of the government which comes in conflict so often with the provinces as does the Indian Department. There are questions constantly arising with regard to land and minerals which require a great deal of attention, and I have not been able to give as much attention to these subjects as I would like. That is one reason why we feel that in the public interest we ought to have an officer who would be competent to give all his attention to the subject.
Mr.	SPROULE.	Who discharges theduties	of this office	now	7The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Mr. Smart, the deputy minister of the Interior.


Mr. SPROULE.: You abolished this office a few years ago, and you then claimed there was no need for it.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
If the work had remained the same it would be quite possible to have carried on the work with one deputy. If the hon. gentleman looks at the returns of the Department of the Interior, he will see that the work of that department has multiplied three or four times during the last five years, and the correspondence alone has'increased three times at least. I am satisfied that the making of this appointment is absolutely in the public interest.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do I understand that the present occupant, Mr. Smart, is to be the deputy superintendent general of Indian Affairs, or is he the deputy minister of the Interior.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He is both.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The question I asked was : Who is to fill the office in future 7


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I cannot say that to the hon. gentleman because I have not come to a conclusion yet. No appointment can be made however until the salary is voted.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This Is another illustration of the failure of hon. gentlemen to keep their promise that wonderful changes would be made when they came into office. They kept it for a short time until they got rid of the incumbent of the office, and thus made a vacancy, and in a little while they re-established the office for the purpose of putting in one of their own friends. It seems to me that this is one of the main objects in view at the present time.
Department of Indian Affairs-clerical and other assistance, $3,130.


Mr.   SPIIOHLE@: There is an increase here.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is an increase of $150 which is made up as follows :	There are five clerks who
are paid out of this vote and two messengers. The statutory increases to these clerks amount to $210. There is a saving effected by the difference between the salary of Miss Garfoote, who has resigned and who was receiving $460, and the salary of the clerk who has been appointed since in her place and who gets the minimum salary of $400, thereby effecting a saving of $60. Taking $60 from $210 makes a net increase of $150.
Ontario and Quebec-relief, medical attendance and1 medicine, Quebec, $5,600.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see there is an increase in the item of relief, medical attendance and medicine for Quebec of $2,000. Wliat is the explanation of that ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The total increase in these two amounts is $1,000, but there is in reality an increase of $2,900 in the item for relief, medical attendance and medicine in Quebec and Ontario, $2,000 in Quebec and $900 in Ontario, making $2,900. We have dropped the vote of $200 which has appeared in the estimates before to provide for the removal of Indians from Oka to the township of Gibson and we have dropped the vote of $1,700 for the repairs to the mission house at Caughnawaga. That makes $1,900 and it leaves a net increase of $1,000. I want to call the attention of the committee to the fact that in reality there is an increase of $2,900. It is for relief, medical attendance and medicine in Quebec and Ontario. As I have explained to the committee on various occasions the department of Indian Affairs has had very great difficulty in dealing with this question. They have endeavoured to keep the amount of expenditure down to the lowest possible figure,
but they have always had to come before the House and ask for a supplementary vote. The officials inform me that they have asked for this increased amount because they believe it will cover the expenditure for the year and that they will not then have to ask for a supplementary vote.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But, your old item in your last estimates included the supplementary vote of last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The hon. gentleman understands that we have supplementary estimates for the current year as well as for the next year and for these particular items we have found it necessary towards the end of the year to bring in a supplementary estimate for the current year. We are voting this amount for this particular year and the hon. gentleman will perceive that in the supplementary estimates to be laid on the Table there will be a supplementary amount for this year. We have now increased the main vote so as to avoid the necessity of taking a supplementary vote again.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think that is a much better principle and it enables us to understand it more easily. I understand the hon. minister to say that he has dropped out of this vote the amount which has been voted every year for the transfer of Oka Indians to Muskoka. Have they all died, or has he transferred the last one of them 1


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They will not go.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister gave us no statement in regard to the Indians on the island near Cornwall with whom the department had some trouble. Is there any change in the situation ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The difficulty which we had at St. Regis was of a very serious and trying character. When I took charge of the department I found that some of the Indians there had made up their minds to defy the authority of the department, and the first attempt that was made to enforce the authority of the department was met by a state of turbulence on the reserve which was very alarming. I do not think the difficulty would have arisen or would have continued to the extent it did, if it had not been for the fact that immediately opposite the reserve is a place where a lot of American Indians reside, and the line between them is only an imaginary one. The Canadian Indians and the American Indians passed freely backwards and forwards, and the American Indians unquestionably excited the Canadian Indians to turbulence and a disregard of the law. The House will remember that a couple of years ago we had a very serious difficulty on the reserve, and sent down the chief of the Dominion police to quell it, and

a very serious attack was made upon liim which resulted in one of the Indians being shot, and his death resulted from the wound. A number of Indians were brought to trial for this affray, and after their trial were allowed to go on suspended sentence. After consulting with the late member for Huntingdon, Mr. Scriver, a man in whose judgment I had considerable confidence, and who was well acquainted with the circumstances, and after consulting with the officers of the law of the province of Quebec in that neighbourhood, and getting all the information I could, as well as having an inspection by one of the inspectors of the department, I came to the conclusion that the ends of justice would be best served by allowing the Indians to go on suspended sentence. They were allowed to go, and for a time matters were quiet, and it was thought that the trouble was at an end. A little while afterwards signs of disturbance again manifested themselves, and I came to the conclusion that undue lenience to the Indians would rather give them the impression that the government was afraid of them, and that they could do as they pleased. The next outbreak was due to a dispute about the lease of a number of islands in the St. Lawrence. I need not trouble the committee by giving a full account of the whole matter, because it is very complicated. A number of the islands in the St. Lawrence were held under leases, which had been assented to by the Indians fifty or sixty years ago, and from time to time a number of these leases had fallen in. Some years ago the department decided that, although these leases were renewable under their strict terms, they would not allow them to be renewed, but would let the islands revert to the Indians whenever the leases fell in. After the leases of several islands had fallen in and the Indians were getting the use of the land of these islands, they conceived the idea that they could force matters, and insist on some' of the islands on which the leases had not terminated being also turned over to them. In order to bring the matter to a head, they arranged to put an Indian with his family on one of these islands, and in that way take possession of it. The department was notified of the fact by persons who had built summer cottages on the island, who were in the habit of going there in the summer, and who were afraid to go for fear of violence from the Indians. I gave the matter the best consideration I could, and came to the conclusion that anything in the nature of extreme leniency, or allowing the Indians to have their way in violating the law, would be a mistake. Consequently I determined to take hold of the matter with a firm hand. I caused the chief of police of the town of Cornwall to go there and make an examination of all the facts of the case, and under the authority of the Indian Act the Indian who was there with his family was taken off and put out of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.	.
possession of the island. As soon as this was done, the Indians determined that they would put this man back again; and as often as he was removed they would put him back and put others along with him, with the object of intimidating persons who went on the island. When I ascertained this, I proceeded under the terms of the Indian Act, and had the man arrested and Put in jail for violating the order that had been made, and the Indians were notified of the fact. The result was that they gave up the fight, and since that time we have had peace, and I do not anticipate any more difficulty in connection with the matter.


Mr. TAYLOR.: The minister said that when the supplementary estimates for this year came down he would ask for an additional amount. We have these supplementary estimates before us, and in them $2,800 is asked for to pay the balance of the expenses in connection with the Indians in the province of Quebec. Last year the sum asked for was $3,600. If my hon. friend will refer to the last estimates of the late Conservative government, brought down in 1895, he will find that the amount then asked for, which included the entire service, was $3,500, included in which was an amount for seed grain, for which I do not see anything included in this vote. Why is this vote increased by $2,100 in five years ? There are no more Indians, but there are less, because some have moved away. This whole increase is for medical attendance.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The increase seems to be due to the fact that the department has taken over a certain amount of work in connection with the Indians on the lower part of the River St. Lawrence. Under the existing conditions, we have a considerable amount of expense in connection with the increased quarantine work, which has had to be undertaken by the Department of Indian Affairs. I quite understand that the expenditure in connection with this branch of the service ought to be as low as possible, and there is a continual struggle on the part of the department for the purpose of keeping down this expenditure on Indian affairs, and my hon. friend can rest assured that there is no money expended except in cases where actual services are rendered. So far as the medical attendance is concerned, there is always the possibility of an increase. When an Indian gets medicine one day, he Imagines he cannot get along unless he gets more the next, and there are bound to be increases from time to time, but we are doing the best we can to keep down the expenditure. The epidemic of small-pox. which has prevailed in all parts of the country, has called for more medical work, particularly among the Indians. The Department of Agriculture makes this expenditure among the Indians of the North-west, but in

the lower provinces the work has to be done by our medical officers.


George Taylor: We know that this Is a growing time, but the Indians are not growing in the province of Quebec, but rather decreasing. The hon. gentleman is asking for an increase over the money expended by the late government. In the supplemen-taries he is asking for $2,800 more this year. If there was an extra expenditure on account of vaccination last year, there ought not to be any this year, but yet this year he is asking for a still larger amount to carry on this work. How many Indians are there in the province of Quebec, and how many medical men are employed to treat them ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: There are 17,000 Indians, and I cannot say exactly how many medical men are employed. There are only three or four paid salaries. Most of the work is done by physicians in the neighbourhood who just send in their accounts. It is much more satisfactory when we can get physicians to do the work on salary, because where we have to pay separate accounts, there is endless difficulty.


George Taylor: No doubt a lot of the hon. gentleman's friends have to be considered and given employment treating the Indians.
Relief medical attendance and medicine, Ontario, $2,000.


George Taylor: This item shows an increase of $900 since 1895-6. The work was done then for $1,100.
The MINISTER * OF THE INTERIOR. The increase is caused by the fact that we have undertaken to do some work for the Indians on the north shore of Lake Superior, which was not done before. We are also providing $200 for the salaries of the medical attendant at Mattawa, who attends the Indians that come from the northern posts, north of the Mattawa, and who is at the call of the department for cases among the Indians in that neighbourhood. We used to have complaints frequently from the people there that no provision was made for the care of sick Indians, and we found it necessary to provide for this service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This, I take it, includes the Indians on] the Manitoulin Islands ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What doctors are employed there now ?


Thei MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Dr. Carruthers, Dr. Johnson and Dr. McIntosh. They are all paid out of the band fund.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where are they located? 96


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Dr. Carruthers, at South Bay, Dr. Johnson, West Bay, and Dr. McIntosh, at Manito-waning. They are paid out of the Indian fund.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They are paid by, salary,
I presume ?
The	MINISTER	OP	THE	INTERIOR.Yes.	Dr. Carruther's salary	is $600; Dr.
Johnson's salary is $250, and Dr. McIntosh s,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is exclusive of medicines, I suppose ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
That includes medicines.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the minister's order with regard to vaccination ?
The	MINISTER	OP	THE	INTERIOR.
The rule is that the physicians on the reserves where at all possible* are supposed to keep the children vaccinated. That, like a good many of the rules in connection with the Indian reserves must be carried out with some discretion and cannot always be executed with the same exactness as in a civilized community. I may say that within the last year we have had a great deal of difficulty, because the physicians claim where there was a very large amount of vaccination to be done, that they were entitled to extra fees for it. I do not think we have paid any extra fees as yet, but that question has come up lately. The rule, as I say, is that, where possible, they are to keep the children vaccinated, but they are not bound to vaccinate the adults.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Has the minister a return of the vaccinations year by year among the Indians ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is not given in the report ?	'


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: No, but we can furnish it if the hon. gentleman desires.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the Indians were much averse to vaccination ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: They are in some places. But not much more than among white people. You come across some who object, but as a rule they do not make much difficulty over it.


George Taylor: I understand that these doctors are paid out of the Indian fund. Will the hon. minister tell us who are paid out of this vote on Manitoulin Island ?


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR.: Indian bands have their funds


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But, if the doctors are paid out of the Indian funds, what is this



vote for ? Are there Indian bands which have no fund ?
The MINISTER OF THE, INTERIOR. We have to make a Virtue of necessity and, where the Indians have no funds, we vote the money that is absolutely necessary for the service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But this cannot be an unusual matter, because this money is voted year after year. Where are the Indians located for whom this vote is made ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I can give the hon. gentleman the names of persons who are employed in this way where salaries are paid them, but, at present I cannot give the names of those who are paid by fees. I fancy they are scattered all over the country, and we have not a list of the names in the report. The following are paid salaries voted by parliament: Dr. J. W. Evans, $100, attending the Indians between Ohapleau and Pogamasing ; Dr. M. James, Mattawa, $200 a year, attending the Algonquin Indians north of Mattawa ; Dr. James A. MeEwan, $300 a year, attending the Oneidas of the Thames.


Mr. INGRAM.: What about Dr. McIntosh on Manitoulin Island ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: He is paid out of the Indian fund.


George Taylor: At page J-156 of the Aildi-tor General's Report I find a charge of $1S4.0S as paid to Dr. McIntosh, Manitoulin Island. Why is that npt paid out of the Indian fund ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is a service rendered to a band on Manitoulin Island that has no fund of its own. There are a number of Indians who are entitled to participate in the funds of what is generally known as the Manitoulin band.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The amounts given by the hon. minister represent a total of only about $000, while this vote is $2,000. There must be others the hon. minister has not given.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: *If the hon. gentleman will refer to page J-7 of the Auditor General's Report, he will find an account of the manner in which the money was expended last year.
Indian Affairs-Ontario and Quebec-schools, Ontario, Quebec and maritime provinces, $42,190.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Will the minister tell us where these schools are and also why this vote has crept up to the present amount from the $8,000 or so that was spent some years ago ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I may say that a good deal of my time with the Indian Department is spent in resisting demands made on behalf of these Mr. SPROULE.
schools. If the hon. gentleman desires I will give the particulars in regard to the schools. In Ontario there are 72 day schools and 6 industrial and boarding schools. The aggregate number of pupils enrolled in the day schools in 2,201 ; the aggregate number in the industrial schools is 466. The average attendance in the day schools is 1,036, and in the industrial schools 423. We have found by experience in connection with Indian education that the average attendance at day schools bears a very small proportion, much smaller than it ought, to the total number of enrolled children ; whereas at boarding schools or industrial schools, the average attendance is' very much greater. Of these 78 schools, 42 are either wholly or in part provided for by government grant, the remainder from the funds of the bands themselves. There are 2 schools at Caradoc, 1 at Manitoulin Island, 3 at Fort William, 1 at Garden River, 1 at Golden Lake, 1 at Georgiana Island, 1 at Hiawatha, 1 at Jack Fish Island, 1 at Ne-pigon Lake, 1 at Nepigon River, 1 at Lower Muncey, 1 at Mattawa, 1 at Michipicoten, 1 at Henvey Inlet, 1 at Mississauga River, the Mohawk institute with 91 pupils, the Mount Elgin institute, with 100 pupils, 2 schools at Oneida, 1 at Pic River, 1 at Port Arthur, 1 at Pays Plat, 1 at Rama, 1 at Spanish River, 1 at Serpent River, 1 at South Bay, Manitoulin Island, 1 at Shawanaga, 1 at Six Nations, 1 at Spanish River, 1 at Shingwauk Home, 1 at Wallpole Island, 1 on the Watha reserve, 1 at White Fish Lake, 1 at White Fish River, 1 at Wikwenikong-sing, 3 at Wikwemikong, and 1 at Thessa-lon. Total grants for schools in Ontario, $31,060.
In Quebec the total number of day schools is 18 ; aggregate number of pupils on roll 763 ; average attendance, 731. Of these schools, 13 are provided for by government grant, the remainder from the funds of the bands themselves. There is one school at Becancour, 3 at Caughnawaga, 1 at Lorette,
1	at Oka Village, 1 at Restigouche River,
2	at Temiseamingue, 1 at Maria, 1 at Lake St. John, 2 at Lake St. Francois, and 1 at Betsiamits. Total grant for Quebec, $3,480.
In Nova Scotia, the number of day schools is 10 ; aggregate number on roll, 205 ; aggregate average attendance, 89. All are provided for by government grant. 1 school is at Bear River, Digby, 1 at Cow Bay, Cape Breton, 1 at Eskasoni, Cape Breton, 1 at Middle River, Victoria, 1 at New Germany, Queen's, 1 at Salmon River, Richmond, 1 at Whycocomagh, Inverness, 1 at Shubenacadie. Hants, 1 at Indian Cove, Pfctou, 1 at Mill-brook, Colchester. Total grant for Nova Scotia, $2,500.
In New Brunswick the number of day schools is 0 ; aggregate number on roll. 143 ; aggregate average attentance, 74. Ali are provided for by government grant. 1 school is at Burnt Church, Northumberland,
1 at Eel Ground, Northumberland, 1 at

King's Clear, York, 1 at St. Mary's, York, 1 at Tobique, Victoria, 1 at Big Cove, Kent. Total grant for New Brunswick, $1,400.
In Prince Edward Island the number of day schools is 1 ; number on roll, 21 ; average attendance, 11. This school is at Lennox Island. Total grant for Prince Edward Island, $300.
Then there is an item for total general expenses of $2,850, made up as follows : To provide for cost of inspection, rent, fuel, cleaning, and repairing outbuildings, and erecting outbuildings (including-$725 for accommodation and furniture for teachers of Roman Catholic schools. Lakes Huron and Superior), $2,725 ; to provide scholarships for the Mohawk institute, to pay fees at the Collegiate institute, Brantford, $125. The total expenditure ' for all the provinces is $42,190.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What standard of education must your teachers possess to qualify them ?
The "MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. They are required to have the usual certificates, a third class certificate. In the province of Ontario1 the schools are inspected by the public school inspectors.


Mr. FRASER.: I know about one of these schools in our own county, conducted by a Miss Connelly. She has transformed the character of the Indian children at Pictou Landing. She has not only instructed them in school work but she has instructed them in their homes, she has gone to their homes and taught, them habits of cleanliness, and has made such a change in them that I do not know any better expenditure this government has made than for the Indian schools in our own county.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What progress generally are the children making in those schools ? We hear it said frequently that they are not making much progress.	.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no foundation for the idea that no progress is being made, or that the money is being wasted. Our position with reference to the Indians is this : We have them with us, and we have to deal with them as wards of the country. There is no question that the method we have adopted of spending money to educate them is the best possible method of bringing these people to an improved state. I can speak from my own knowledge in the North-west, and generally speaking there is a vast difference between the Indians who have passed through the day school and are now adults or becoming adults, and the Indians who have not had that advantage. There is the difference between the savage and a person who has become civilized, though perhaps not of a high type. I do not think any great improvement can be made in the work which is being carried on; we have to have inspection just as we would if we were 96J
dealing with day schools. You cannot have exactly the same degree of efficiency. You cannot press the Indian children as you can the children of white people, you cannot require so much from them. In Ontario we do not have very much difficulty because the schools are inspected by the public school inspectors, but in the other provinces we have to pay a little closer attention to detail. In outlying places there is difficulty in getting competent teachers. When you pay $300 a year and send a young woman, or a young man, out to a lonesome place where there are no social advantanges it is very difficult to get a competent teacher under those circumstances. We can only do the best we can from time to time, and if we find that a teacher is not competent on the inspector's report, we try to make a change as quickly as possible.


George Taylor: I see that the hon. minister is asking for $42,190 for schools in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces. I turn to the Auditor General's Report at J-156, and I find that the expenditure for schools in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces amounted to $12,331.59. The Auditor General gives the names of all the teachers. I do not find the name of the one that has been mentioned.
The MINISTER OB'' THE INTERIOR. If my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) will turn to J-8 he will find the expenditure there.


George Taylor: In connection with the schools, the Auditor General gives all the names of the teachers and the expenditure, which amounts to $12,331.59. I turn to the next page, J-157, and I finfl the following :
H. Jacques, M.D., physician, Xing's
county	S 50 00
F. H. Kelly, M.D, physician, Queen's
and Lunenburg	
50	00F. Macaulay, M.D., physician, Inverness county	-	
75 00D. Macdonald, M.D., physician, Inverness county	
12	50H. N. Macdonald, M.D., physician, Victoria county	
62	60H. A. March, M.D., physician, Lunenburg county	
75	00Daniel McDonald, M.D., physician, Victoria county	
225	00
D. K. Mclutyre, M.D., physician, Sydney,
C.E	 250	00


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend is not referring to the expenditure in connection with this vote.


George Taylor: J. C. McKinnon, M.D., physician, Anti-gonish county	$150	00
E.	D. McLean, M.D., physician, Hants
county	
150	00R. Withers, M.D., physician, Annapolis county	'	
50 00F.	S. Yorkston, M.D., physician1, Colchester county	
150	00J. S. Benson, M.D.,	physician	
100	00J. F. Desmond, M.D., physician, Newcastle	
179	17A. G. Ferguson,	M.D.,	physician	25	00
And so they go on.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Is that at page 157 ?


George Taylor: That is at page 157. I would like to know how many Indians there are down there, and how many doctors are required to look after them ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If the hon. gentleman will look at J-8 he will find the expenditure under this vote-schools, Ontario, and Quebec, and maritime provinces. He will find that it was $38,827.83.


Mr. MCLENNAN.: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the expenditures in Inverness county for these schools and for medical attendance, I beg to say that the sum of $150 has been set aside to pay for medical attendance. There are two Indian reserves in the county of Inverness. One of these physicians attend the Indians on each reserve, and $150, at my suggestion, has been divided between them. Hence it is that so many names appear as receiving money from this government for medical services in Inverness. The whole amount does not exceed $150. I do not know how it is in other counties, but that is what holds true in the county of Inverness. With regard to the schools, I can only say that the government, at my suggestion also, built a very fine school there at an expenditure of $700 or so, and I may say, as the hon. minister said in regard to the schools in Ontario, the public inspector visits the Indian school just as regularly, and is bound to do so, as he visits any other school in the county of Inverness. The teacher also must be licensed, holding a provincial license, as the gentleman in charge of the Indian school now does. Sometimes I regret that the young Indians in that school are making such progress that they are very greatly adding to my correspondence. While I am up here they write to me and make known their wants like ordinary mortals in that county.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They know that the hon. gentleman (Mr. McLennan) is controlling the patronage. I was going to ask the hon. minister what books they use for the instruction of the children. Are they taught in various languages or are they required to be taught in any other language than English ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They are taught in English.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: English only ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There may be a few teachers who know the native Indian language, but it is not required. They are taught in English.


George Taylor: Then, .we are to understand that the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. McLennan) is responsible for the extra medical attendance down there ?


George Taylor: 


Angus McLennan: I do not hear the hon. gentleman.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister tells us that the children are making satisfactory progress. I hope they are. He says that these schools meet with his approval and on looking over his report I do not doubt but that they do. Looking over the report, I take up the Ellthorn school, and I see that one of the principal items in connection with that school is as follows :
The event of the year was the visit of the Hon. Mr. Sifton, with regard to which the Manitoba 'Free Press' of October 29, says : 'Mr. Sifton visited the industrial school ini Elkhorn on Saturday, and after receiving a most cordial reception from the staff and pupils, he was presented with a kindly worded address, accompanied by a bouquet.
He should have had the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) there. I wonder if he paid for the bouquet himself.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not know whether it was paid'for out of the Indian vote or not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Or was it paid for out of the Indian vote ?
The hon. gentleman spoke nicely to the children in reply, thanking them for their tokens of esteem and encouraging them to prosecute their studies diligently.
Did the hon. gentleman speak in Indian or in English ?
He was highly pleased with the work being accomplished there.
I suppose he would be, as that address was presented to him there.
Mr. and Mrs. Wilson entertained him at lunch after the inspection was completed. The school is an admirably equipped institution.
This was the event of the year at this Indian school, and of course, the hon. gentleman is highly pleased with the ptogress which is being made. I do not wonder he would be, as he got that bouquet. Will he present it to the House and lay it on the Table V
Grant for the agricultural society-Munceys of the Thames, $90.


Mr. ROBINSON (Elgin).: Is that all that is granted to the Muncey Indians ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We give them a little medical attendance and I think they share in some other grants, but not much more. These Indians are highly advanced as the hon. gentleman knows, and this is merely a gratuity to their agricultural society.


Jabel Robinson: The Muncey Indians have an excellent institution on the Thames. They have a splendid school presided over by a very able gentleman, and to meet the Indian children on the roads you would see that they are as well dressed and fully as refined and cultured as most of our

farmer's sons in that neighbourhood. The institution is a credit.
To assist in the suppression of the liquor traffic among Indians belonging to bands in the older provinces, which have no funds of their own, $500.
Mr.	SPROULE.	Where is	this money
spent ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
When reports come in that liquor is being sold to the Indians in any particular place, we send out special instructions and sometimes we send down a special detective.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you require this in Ontario, where they have license inspectors, whose duty it is to see that the law is enforced ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
They do not consider it their business to do anything special in connection with the Indians.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They don't consider it their business to prevent liquor being illegally sold. That is a sad reflection on the license inspector in the province of Ontario.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
If the provincial officers find an Indian drunk of course they will lock him up as they would any other man, but they will not make any special exertion to ascertain who sold the liquor. The sale of liquor to an Indian is in contravention of Dominion legislation, and none of the provincial authorities consider it their business to look specially after the violations of the Indian Act. In one case, I sent a special detective three times to the same place and he entirely failed to find evidence to secure a conviction.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I always understood that liquor could not be sold to an Indian under a penalty of $200. Surely it is the duty of the provincial inspector to see that punishment is meted out when the law is broken. Would the provincial inspectors not consider it their duty to prosecute if they were informed that liquor had been sold in contravention of the law, to the Indians ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is a great difficulty in this case, because the men who sell liquor to the Indians are very unscrupulous and they are well posted in all the tricks to avoid detection. Sometimes they corrupt a member of the band of Indians, and as a rule the Indians are extremely loath to give evidence. We find it necessary to have a special officer to look after this work occasionally.


Mr. LANCASTER.: I see that $194.30 of this vote last year went to Mr. J. D. Leduc for legal services. Who is this Mr. Leduc, and what does he do ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have not that information, but I will get it at the evening sitting.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where did these prosecutions take place ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Principally at Restigouche and Bersimis. The details are on page 10.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is no detail there as to whether these things occurred in Quebec or in Ontario. It is important for us to know that, because the license laws in Ontario are supposed to be enforced by the inspectors.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will give the hon. gentleman the exact information to-night.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who is J. B. White, license inspector ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will include that in the information which I will give to-night.
Indians, Nova Scotia, $7,650.


Andrew B. Ingram: We want some explanation in regard to seed-grain.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The amount of seed-grain which it is actually necessary to distribute is worked out by the agents in each county, and the grain is purchased by the agent at the lowest possible rate and distributed, the vouchers being sent to the department. The transactions are very small.


Andrew B. Ingram: At whose request are these amounts expended ? Is it at the request of the gentleman representing the constituency ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Practically the agent has it altogether in his own hands. We find it impracticable to do it in any other way. .


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the same rule apply as in the North-west Territories ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, not at all. There the supplies are very large in quantity and in most cases are purchased by tender by the department here. Priuted schedules are issued every year, and the contracts are awarded to the lowest tenderers. Where there are some small supplies required in the immediate neighbourhood of a reserve, they are purchased under the direction of the Indian Commissioner at Winnipeg. He sends his estimates of the quantity and price to the department, and after these are checked over, he is authorized to buy them. In the North-west Territories, where the supplies are very large it is possible to follow a system, which is not possible in the case of small supplies in the maritime provinces, where, if we attempted to follow any system, it would cost more than the goods.


George Taylor: The minister is asking $3,700 for medical attendance and medicines,

whereas in 1896 the amount was $2,000. I would like him to explain this increase.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The actual expenditure last year was $3,768.58.


Mr. KENDALL.: The minister at my request in one or two instances has increased the expenditure, and I am going to make the request that it be increased still further, because the appropriations which we have made hitherto for the Indians have been simply criminal. We have not taken charge of these wards of the nation as we should have done.


Andrew B. Ingram: Perhaps the hon. gentleman will tell us whether the Indians in Nova Scotia are troubled with disease, and if so, what class of disease ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: The Indians there are subject to the same diseases as Indians in other parts of the world. Indians who are not supplied with proper food and clothing are more apt to be ill than other people, and I say that our appropriation has not been adequate to the needs of these people.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: How many are there? Mr. KENDALL. I do not know.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: Then, how do you know that the appropriation is not adequate ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I am a medical man, and have had a great deal to do with them.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Indian population of Nova Scotia is 2,000.


George Taylor: The hon. gentleman has not favoured us with the reason of this extraordinary increase.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The hon. gentleman must realize that we are taking care of the Indians a little better than before, that is all.


Andrew B. Ingram: According to the statement made by the hon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. Kendall), that is not the case. He stated that owing to bad food or something of that character, it was necessary to increase the fees for medical attendance. Why should that be done ? Do they not get sufficient food, or are they not properly clothed or housed ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Yes, I can say that they are not properly fed, clothed or housed.


Andrew B. Ingram: How long has that been going on ?


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Ever since we have had possession of the country.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR They are considerably better taken care of than before. My hon. friend asks whether a band of Indians on one of the maritime Mr. TAYLOR.
province reserves are properly housed or clothed. He asks a question which cannot be answered categorically. It depends on what we consider to be properly housed and clothed. If the hon. gentleman refers to the kind of clothing and houses that white people have in the county in which he lives, then they are not properly housed and clothed by a long way. There is always plenty of room for increasing the expenditure largely for the Indians, and leaving a large margin.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: If the increase is for want of food and clothing why is it not put down as such, instead of medical attendance, which is misleading to the country ?
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N. S.) The doctors who attend these Indians mav live perhaps thirty miles from them. There are no doctors in close proximity to the Indian reserves in different parts of the Island of Cape Breton. The doctors have to travel long distances to visit the Indians whenever there is any sickness prevailing among them. As a rule there is more sickness among the Indians than among the white people who are better fed and better clothed.
Department of Indian Affairs, N.B.-Medical attendance and medicines, $3,000.


George Taylor: I cannot understand why the increase in connection with the Indians in New Brunswick should be all in medical attendance. In 1895-6, it was $1,295 ; now it is $3,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend will find the details on page J-12 of the Auditor General's Report.


Andrew B. Ingram: There must be some particular reason why this item is increased.
I could understand an increase in clothing and food, but the increased cost of medical attendance I cannot understand.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are constantly trying to keep the expenditure down but it constantly shows a tendency to rise. Continual applications are made to us by members representing the different counties, on the ground that the Indians have not the medical attendance they require, and we feel that perhaps they were not as well looked after by the late government as they should have been. We are told that the Indians are not sufficiently looked after from a medical standpoint, and that more expenditure is required, and we increased the expenditure a little in each case for reasons which certainly can be justified on the ground of humanity. I think my hon. friend can rely upon this, that the Indians are getting the medical attendance we are paying for.


Andrew B. Ingram: We have not objected to the expenditures on salaries and relief and seed grain, but the increase in medical expenditure seems unaccountable.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: $3,000 would not provide them with coffins in the spring of the year.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are simply meeting the demands made upon us as fhr as we can. We do not send out word that we want to pay so much more for medical attendance, but we are simply meeting the demands made upon us.
Medical attendance and medicine, Indians, P.B.I., $650.


Mr. HACKETT.: I would like to ask the minister the reason for this increase of nearly 100 per cent.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think that the expenses for the next year will be substantially any more than there were last year on the whole.


Edward Hackett: If the Indians required the medical attendance, I would have no objection to the item, but I would like to know who asked for it ? Was it the Indian agents or the doctors ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When the* Indians become sick and there is a medical attendant in the locality, who is paid a salary, he is obliged to attend them, but where there is none, a medical man attends them and then sends in his bill, just as he would in the case of a white man, and the department has to exercise its own judgment as to the correctness of the charge. In the case of an account coming from a reserve or a district, as is the case in Prince Edward Island, the account has to be certified by the agent.


George Taylor: How many Indians on Prince Edward Island ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Three hundred and fifteen.


George Taylor: And the hon. gentleman is asking for $300 more for medical attendance and medicines than was spent in 1895-6. We have here the names of a dozen doctors to whom various amounts were paid, does that list include all the doctors in Prince Edward Island of the political belief of my hon. friends opposite V


Edward Hackett: 1 must say that the minister has not been very partial to his own side in that respect. The list of doctors includes men of the different political creeds. The principal doctor, Dr. Long, who resides at Port Hill, and attends the Indians on Lennox Island, is a neutral in politics, I believe. Being the nearest to where the principal body of Indians is situated, he has the most of this work to do. The Indian being nomadic in his habits, ranges about the island in the summer, and is attended by different doctors. So far as this list shows, the minister has not discriminated against the Tories very much.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it the custom in Prince Edward Island, that when an Indian takes sick that the nearest doctor is called upon to attend him and the bill charged to this fund ? That is not the case in Ontario.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The bill has to be certified by the agent, then it comes here and is passed upon by the secretary of the department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But if you sent such a bill to an agent in Ontario, I understand, he would refuse to certify it. I speak from personal experience to this extent, that I have at different times attended Indians but never had a bill against the Indian fund. I have always done it for nothing and supplied the medicine myself.
Indian- Affairs*-Manitoba and Nortli-west Territories-agricultural implements, $11,647.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What success are the Indians achieving in agricultural pursuits ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Their progress is proportionate to the capacity and energy of the farm instructor. The position of the Indians is much improved, and it has been shown that great advance can be made where attention is paid to the matter by a competent man. We have had such striking illustrations of that, that we have made some changes within, the last year or two with a view to getting more competent men in charge of the farming work on the reserves. As hon. members will readily understand, a man may be competent as a clerk or overseer on the reserve, yet not have the. faculty of teaching the Indians how to succeed in farming. The department can learn only by experience, and we have endeavoured to put in these positions men who are qualified for the work. On what was formerly called the File Hills reserve, now the Qu'Appelle agency, we have a gentleman named Graham, who has been in charge of that reserve for some years, and the progress made by the Indians under his direction has been simply remarkable. Two years ago I visited the neighbourhood of the reserve and the Indian school not far from it, and got full particulars regarding progress made. That fall the Indians on the reserve had over ten thousand bushels of first-class wheat, and also a considerable number of cattle. With a view of improving matters there, we put this Indian agent in charge of three reserves, because of the capacity he has shown for the work. It requires a peculiar combination of faculties to succeed in this work, and it is impossible to know in advance just how a man chosen for it will turn out. Some men whom we expected to succeed have failed and some of whom we expected but little have succeeded. On the whole, the committee may be satisfied that substantial progress has been made and, instead of having a horde of savages in the North-west, as we had a few years

ago, we shall soon have an orderly, fairly educated population, capable of sustaining themselves. They are taking much greater interest in cattle-raising than in other lines of agi'iculture. They apply themselves to it more readily and show better capacity for it. The Blackfeet and the Bloods, not far from Calgary are the reserves upon which ordinary agriculture has made, possibly the least progress. But the Indians there have lately manifested a desire to conform themselves to, what they see on other reserves, and I think we may look for progress there. They do a good deal already in the way of raising horses and cattle.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understood the minister to refer to the Pine Creek reserve. His report shows that the Indians there have not made satisfactory progress in agricultural pursuits. ' Grain growing on these reserves, so far as it has been tried, has not proved successful.' The present statement of the minister does not seem to be in accordance with his own report.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I was speaking of the File Hills reserve, not the Pine Creek reserve.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the case I referred to it seems that the Indians have not been successful in grain-growing-though a little more successful not very much-in cattleraising. The report says :
Thoroughbred shorthorn bulls were supplied this year to Ebb and Flow, Lake St. Martin and Lake Manitoba reserves; but as they were only yearlings, it 's hardly probable that much benefit will be derived from them for another year. The Indians take fairly good care of their stock, and no loss has occurred from neglect during the past year. As the young men grow' up, I think they will take more interest in cattle than their parents.
I have noticed in former reports that, on some of the reserves the Indians used to leave their agricultural machinery out of doors, and, as for their cattle, when they got hungry they killed an animal for food.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My hon. friend has exercised considerable ingenuity on picking out the case of a reserve in northern Manitoba where we have not accomplished a great deal as yet. But if he will read the report of Mr. Graham, beginning page 153, of the Report of the Department of Indian Affairs, he will get a fair, unbiased statement of the position of affairs on the various reserves referred to. As I have already said, Mr. Graham is one of our most successful agents in inducing the Indians to settle down and take care of themselves. Mr. Graham has been about 15 years in the service, and is still in the prime of life. It is only on account of his capacity that he has been put in charge of an additional amount of work. There always have been one or two places where the work has not been satisfactory. That arises Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
from the effect of local circumstances, or because the agent or officer has not turned out as well as we expected.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is an increase here of $1,455 for agricultural implements. Is that due to the increased number who are going into agriculture ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There has been a necessity for providing threshing machines on three agencies.
Field and garden seeds, $1,845.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Where operations are extensive there is always 'a certain number of requisitions coming in for seed. Of course this! sum does not by any means provide all the seed required on the Indian reserves, that is just for a little sorting up that is required from the various agencies.
Supplies for destitute and working Indians, $193,557.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This estimate is made up on the basis of an exact statement which has been prepared by the Indian commissioner in Winnipeg, stating the goods that are actually required, and the cost. His report to me ft that the increase in this item, which amounts to $4,090, is due almost entirely to the increased price of goods in the classes that are required.


George Taylor: Are they all bought by tender ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes. The general rule in regard to these purchases is the same as has prevailed for many years in the department. An advertisement is published in the papers saying that tenders will be called for, and the schedule can be seen here. The.lowest tenderer gets the contract.


George Taylor: I used to be furnished with a copy of these schedules, but I have not received any this year.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I shall be glad to send a schedule to any [DOT]member of the committee who desires it.


George Taylor: I always forward them to the Rathbun Company, who generally tender for flour and other supplies.
Sioux Indians, $5,515.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: These Sioux Indians came over from the state of Minnesota at the time of the Minnesota massacres, 30 years ago, and settled, most of them, in the neighbourhood of Crooked Lake, 30 miles west of Brandon. They have a reserve there, and are getting along fairly well. We changed the instructor a couple of years ago; the instructor we have at present is getting along very well, and the Indians are making satisfactory progress.

Grist and saw-mills, $948.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many of these mills have you now for the Indians in Manitoba and the North-west, and how do you run them ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are five altogether. We get, for instance, an estimate from the Carleton agency of what they will require for their mill, mentioning the articles, such as oil, tools, furniture, &c. The commissioner sends us his bill, and it is passed by an officer of the department.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are the mills under their own control, or do you put a man in charge of each mill and pay him a salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have a man in some cases who is called a farm instructor. But there is some particular officer of the department on each reserve who has charge of the mill.
General expenses, $149,369.


George Taylor: There is a large increase In this item. Since 1895-6, the item for general expenses has increased by $35,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The hon. gentleman will understand that within the last five years the work of the Indian Department in the North-west has very largely increased. We have recently made a treaty known as Treaty No. 8 in which a very large territory is involved, necessitating a considerable amount of expenses. We have to send a man up to that territory specially each year. This officer has to travel north of Edmonton to the Great Slave Lake, and a special party has to be equipped for the purpose of taking him up there. This year the officers who went up were accompanied by a couple of mounted police and the expense of travelling, where a special party has to be organized and equipped, is very great. The expense last year was not as great as the year before, owing to the better knowledge of the department as to how to go about it and do it in the least expensive way possible. If there has been any increase in the cost of looking after the Indians in the last five years it has been in the direction of furnishing live stock to the Indians.


George Taylor: In 1893-91 we furnished $12,000 worth of live stock, the same as now, and in 1893-94 the expenditure was $799 000. Next year the amount asked for was $770,000. The late Sir John Macdonald stated that the Indians were getting more self-sustaining aud that this vote would be every year a decreasing one, but, I find that his words have not been verified, because neither he nor his successors have had charge of the administration of the department, and I find that under the hon. [DOT] gentleman that instead of it being a decreasing expenditure it is an increasing one.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The vote this year is $11,000 less than last year.


George Taylor: But it is not less than it was in 1893-94 or 1894-95.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If my hon. friend will look at the method in which the money was voted in former years, he will find that there were two items, farm wages, and maintenance of farms, that were voted separately, and which are now voted in connection with the general expenditure. It is now put into one vote. Speaking from recollection, I am quite safe in saying that there has been no increase in the vote so far as Indians are concerned. There whs a reduction of $20,000 or $25,000 for the first two or three years after I took charge. I think now the expenditure is about the same as it was before.
British ' Columbia-Medical attendance and medicines, $11,000.


Edward Arthur Lancaster: There is an increase of $2,500 for medical attendance and medicines that ought to be explained.


Mr. EARLE.: Before that item is passed, the hon. minister might explain the increase in the vote tot medical attendance and medicines.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The position is simply this :	In British
Columbia we are having the experience that comes from the white people coming into contact with the Indians. As the white population spreads the Indians, who formerly did not bother the department very much, make demands upon us, and we have pressure put upon us continually for an increase in the expenditure. The work in connection with British Columbia is practically altogether under the control of Mr. Vowell, the superintendent.


Thomas Earle: I would like to ask the. lion, minister if the request for an increased expenditure for medical attendance comes from the superintendent, Mr. Vowell, hr from some other source 1


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The increased expenditure is altogether upon the report of Mr. Vowell. There is nothing done in that connection except on his recommendation, and if in any case I should be asked for an increased expenditure, for instance, by one of the party in his constituency, the course adopted would be that the secretary of the department would at once send the request to Mr. Vowell, and he would be asked to report upon it. I have not had a great deal of personal acquaintance with Mr. Vowell, but I may say that he is one of the officers of the department in whom I have the greatest confidence as to his ability and integrity, and I am quite sure if there was any possible

way of getting this expenditure down he would get it down. It is not being allowed to grow unnecessarily.


Thomas Earle: I have every confidence, myself, in Mr. Vowell, but as this expenditure seems to have taken place through all the provinces, on the recommendation of somebody other than the agent, I would like to know whether the same is the case in British Columbia.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. There has been no increase in the expenditure for medical attendance except upon the recommendation of Mr. Vowell. I can give the hon. gentleman the exact words Mr. Vowell uses in his report upon the question if he so desires.


Thomas Earle: No, it is all right.


Andrew B. Ingram: Will the hon. minister give us an explanation in regard to the payments of Dr. G. E. Drew and Dr. W- A. D. Jack, one of whom received $585 and the other $501 for medical attendance ? Where are these medical men located ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They are simply medical men who are paid by fee according to the amount of work they do.


Andrew B. Ingram: Where are they located ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Dr. Jack is at Vancouver, and I cannot tell Where Dr. Drew is at the present time.
British Columbia industrial and boarding schools, $77,250.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We are receiving more pressure from British Columbia for expenditure at the present time in connection with Indian education than from any other part of the country. I want to warn the committee that this increase of $8,200 does not represent all we will be asked to vote this year, because there *will be some items in the supplementary estimates. Last year the mission buildings were burned at Metlakahtla on the northwest coast, and this $8,200 represents our contribution to the erection of the industrial school. That is the only Indian school on the north-west coast and it has been most successful.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is the increased vote for the purpose of increasing the number of schools ?
The MimSTER OF THE INTERIOR.
It will be for new schools.
church authorities. They are rebuilding all the mission buildings, but we make this contributed only towards the school. The estimate has been checked over by our officer.	'	.


Mr. LENNOX.: The minister spoke frequently of pressure being brought upon the the department, and he said there is special pressure from British Columbia. What is the nature of that pressure ? Has it anything to do with votes ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The pressure comes from the different ecclesiastical bodies of the Dominion. There is constant communication between the various churches and the Department of Indian Affairs. I suppose the Indians faring their pressure to bear upon the church, and the church brings its pressure to bear upon the department.	,


Haughton Lennox: It is perfectly legitimate I presume.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Ecclesiastical pressure ought to be legitimate if anything is.
Inspector of Indian agencies and reserves.
?1,S00.


Andrew B. Ingram: Who are these inspectors ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. McCrae and Mr. Chitty. They have both been in the department for a considerable number of years.


Haughton Lennox: Does that $1,800 include all that was paid to Mr. McCrae ?
The MINISTERi OF THE INTERIOR. Yes. They are paid by salary, and get no fees.
Indians-Printing and stationery, generally.
?e,ooo.
Mr, INGRAM. What does that mean ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, This apparent increase of $6,000 is a mere matter of bookkeeping. The items that have been voted for printing and stationery in other votes have been collected into one vote.
At six o'clock, committee took recess. After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
Andrew B. Ingram: Is this $8,200 to cover the cost of the new building ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR Nearly all of these Indian schools are in charge of one church or another, and this particular one is in charge of the Church of England. The $8,200 is the estimate of the Hon. Mr. SIFTON.	[DOT]


CONSIDERED IN' COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
feill (No. 50) respecting the Niagara. St. Catharines and Toronto Railway Company.-Mr. Calvert.	[DOT]
Bill (No. 78) respecting the Trans-Canada Railway Company.-Mr. Talbot.

House again jn Committee ofl Supply.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Before proceeding with any other items, I propose to give the committee some information which was asked this afternoon, respecting legal services performed in connection with the prosecution of parties for having sold liquor to the Indians.
J. D. Ledue is agent of the Minister of Justice at Ste. Scholastique, and was paid $194.30.
His services were retained in the ease Regina vs. Napoleon Boucher for selling liquor to Indians. The case was appealed and it was necessary to retain counsel and his bill was the amount specified in the Auditor General's Report.
Blodin vs. Courchene, Pierreville, was paid $10.75 for court fees.	[DOT]
D. M. Brodie was paid $10 for services in connection with a liquor case at Thessalon, Ontario.
A. Gagnon, Indian agent, at Betsiamites, North Shore vs. Lawrence, was paid $44.72, travelling expenses in connection with liquor license prosecutions.
James Gedlon, constable, MicMac reserve at Maria, county of Bonaventure, was paid $30 in connection with liquor cases. The following payments were also made in connection with liquor cases :
Thomas Isaac, constable, Restigouche
reserve.'	
-J66	00J. B. White, license inspector, Thessalon, Ont	[DOT]	
29 00Mr. Wionche, constable, Restigouche..	6	00Wm. Irving, constable, Thessalon, Ont..	17	70D. Legault, constable, Oka, Que	9	50A. J. Nault, constable, Maniwaki, Que...	11	10J. Perrillard, agent, Oka, Que	
5	25H. S. Sims, constable, Massey Station..	23	75
Urbain Turcotte, constable, Pierreville,
Que	    36	05


Geo.   E.@: Drew, M.D., resides at New Westminster, B.C., and attends Indians at Eraser agency, Fort Rupert, Katney Hope, Coquitlam, Langley, Pemberton and Harrison River.
Civil government-Department of the Interior, including A. P. Collier at $1,400 and E. E; Turton at $600, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $113,121.50.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the reason for the increase here, and why this provision : * Notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act 1.'
The MINISTER, OF THE INTERIOR. The total increase is $4,157.50. There are forty-five statutory increases of $50 each, making $2,250. There is one statutory increase of $37.50 and two of $30, $97.50. Messrs. Pope, York, Egleson and Badgley are promoted to the second-class from the third. They were at the maximum of their class, $1,000, and this will give them each an increase of $100 or $400 for all. Mr. Ackland is promoted from the position of a messenger to the position of a junior second-class clerk. He is a very competent and
capable man. He was receiving $540 and he now gets $600, an increase of $60. Mr. 'Turton gets an increase from the position of messenger to that of junior second-class clerk also. Mr. Cote is promoted from the second to the first-class with an increase of $50. There are two additional second-class clerks with $600 each making $1,200. This makes a total of $4,457.50. One of the clerks promoted! from a junior second-class to a second-class and who was receiving $1,000 is replaced by a clerk who receives $700, making a reduction of $300. This taken from the gross increase makes the net increase of $4,157.50 given in the estimates. The reason of the words ' notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act' is that Mr. Collier is promoted from the second-class to the first-class. He is private secretary and did not write on the examination.
Department of the Interior-Clerical and other assistance, including .$820 for J. D. Bollard and $515 for T. W.
Hodgins, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service
Act	$ 3,932 50
Printing and stationery	 8,500 00
Sundries	 7,000 00


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no change there, except a slight decrease of $2S2.50.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why this ' notwithstanding anything in the- Civil Service Act ? '


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: These gentlemen were in the service when I came. They have not passed the examination. The Auditor General holds that, year by year, we must carry that clause in order to allow them to be paid.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: It may have the merit of antiquity, but it has no other. Why would it not be better to repeal the Civil Service Act than to do this ? Of course, this case is not singular, but the custom prevails in every department, and seems to be on the increase. I do not think that my hon. friend (Mr. Sifton) himself would say that this is very desirable legislation. For it is legislation, and it is repealing the Civil Service Act pro tanto, and repealing it without giving the Upper House the opportunity of saying whether It shall be done or not. I have protested against it many times, and have asked the government to consider whether an amendment of the Act could not be made so that this kind of thing might no longer be necessary.


The MINISTER OF THEJ INTERIOR.: I think everybody will agree with the hou. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) that it is not desirable to have exceptions in the administration of the Act. But when the hon. gentleman gets to this side, I think he will find cases arising in which he will think that the rule ought to be relaxed. At the same time, I think we ought to have it on

the statute-books, for otherwise a minister's life would not be worth living.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not mean that the Act should be repealed, but that an endeavour should be made to get it into some such shape that it would not be necessary to repeal, it in so many cases in the estimates. 1 remember counting seventeen or eighteen instances on one page of the estimates in which the Act was repealed for particular cases.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: And I think if the hon. gentleman will look at the estimates and will consider the number of officers provided for he will see that seventeen or eighteen cases is a very small proportion. Peculiar cases will arise in which this provision is necessary. Take, for instance, the case of Mr. Hodgins. He was in .the government service before the last Civil Service Act was passed. That provided that everybody who was in the government service at a certain time should be held to be regularly there so far as examination was concerned. But the Order in Council under which he was appointed ran out, and there was an interregnum of one day in the term of his service after the passing of this Act. The Auditor General held that he was not continuously in the service and could not be paid without this special provision. It happened when the change of government took place, and it was nobody's business in particular to look after the matter, and so the poor man was not paid for some time. I provided for his case in this way. Cases of that kind will arise, and I do not think that the hon. gentleman will find that the number of them is larger than might be expected.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. minister says that these cases are very exceptional. On the same page of the estimates as that on which the present item appears are three cases out of eight, and, on the next page, three more. It seems to me it would not be a bad plan to have a year of jubilee every ten years or so, and put these civil servants straight on the list, and so try to observe the law with some kind of regularity. If it cannot be observed, then, amend it or repeal it.


The MINISTER OP FINANCE (Hon. Mr. Fielding).: Even with the number of exceptions stated, my hon. friend (Mr. Sifton) can fully justify his statement that the proportion is not large. For instance, in the Department of the Interior there are perhaps, over a hundred officials, and, of that number, there are only four that must be treated in this exceptional way. That is only 4 per cent.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does the hon. minister mean to say that there is not more than 4 per cent ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: In the Department of the Interior, of which we


Hon. Mr. SIFTON.: have been speaking. Cases arise under conditions which cannot be dealt with under any general rule. If they were numerous, the view of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) would be correct, and it might be better to make some general amendment.


Robert Laird Borden: They are not as numerous in this department as they are in some others. In some of the departments I have found them quite numerous ; it may be that circumstances make them more necessary in some departments than in others. I am not finding any fault, I am not making the slightest criticisms of the officers. I do not know either of these gentlemen, I have no doubt they are very capable and efficient officers. It is not with the officers or their services that I am finding fault, but with the system which makes it necessary to repeal the Act in such a way as this. I have pointed out the objection to it, and the Minister of Finance recognizes it. This branch of the legislature passes these estimates in such a way that the other branch cannot say a word about them.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: It is strictly a money matter as respects these individual cases.


Robert Laird Borden: But tins branch of the legislature enacts a statute in such a way that the other branch cannot have any voice in it unless they reject the whole appropriation.
Government of the North-west Territories, $425,359.


Mr. SCOTT.: single bridges-which if the legislature attempted to carry out and which would be of very great benefit to the people, would take nearly all the sum of $357,000. There are places in that country where works are needed and which would be a benefit to the people, and such works would take the entire vote which it is proposed to grant to the legislature, namely, $357,000. I need only refer to the matter of public works, a matter of very great importance, a matter which requires a very great expenditure in a country of the immense extent of the North-west Territories, some parts of which are of a broken character and having very large rivers. The subject of education is one of no less importance. In a country like the North-west Territories, where a very large immigration is coming in and where a very large immigration and an increasing population are expected, the subject of education is, to the people there and to the people of Canada, one of the very highest importance. As illustrating the need of an increase in the vote by this House for the purposes of the legislative assembly, I will quote some figures to show the way in which the school districts have been increasing in nuiliber. At the end of 1896 there were 436 public school districts. These had been organized since 1884, when the public school system was inaugurated. At the end of 1897 there were 459 school districts, being an increase of 21 districts in that year. At the end of 1898 there were 480, there being an increase of 23. At the end of 1899 the number had risen to 524, there being an increase of 44. At the end of 1900 there were 576, an increase of 52. At the end of 1901 the number of school districts which had been organized was 684, showing an increase during the last year of 108 districts. The expenditure of the North-west Territories upon education in 1901 was $204,000, being something more than half of the total grant made by this parliament for all the purposes of local government in the North-west Territories. I neglected to mention, in regard to the subject of public works, that the expenditure made last year was in the neighbourhood of * $250,000, so that it will be seen that the expenditure on education and public works, on these two subjects, more than took up the whole of the yearly grant: made by parliament last year for all purposes of local government in the territories. The local authorities find that these necessary subjects are practically all that they are able to undertake. Of course, there are necessarily some other expenditures, for instance, the expenses of the meeting of the legislature, and there are other incidental items which are necessary and which cannot be avoided. Last year, in addition to these items- of public works and education, which took up a very large amount of the total appropriation, there was an amount of $80,000 for the yearly expenses of the local civil service and the meeting of the legislature a vote Mr. SCOTT.
of $8,000 for the administration of local ordinances and civil justice, which comes under the purview of the legislature, and a vote of | $20,000 to meet the expenses of the Department of Agriculture, which is performiug some very important and necessary work. The Department of Agriculture administers amongst other things what is known as the Brands ordinance. In the ranching country the brand upon the animal is the chief evidence of ownership, and it is important that the legislation in regard to brands shall be carefully administered. During last year, I believe there were no less than 10,000 new brands issued by the Department of Agriculture. There was a vote of $15,000 for the purposes of grants to hospitals and the maintenance of public health, and there was a miscellaneous vote of $5,000, making a total, outside the subjects of public works and education, of $128,000. I do not think it would be profitable for me, or for any hon. member of this House to make comparisons between the expenditures in one part of the country and in another, or between one.province and another, or between the North-west Territories and any of the provinces. Such comparisons might be made, and X may say that I think I could make them at the present time, and possibly convince the House by such comparisons that a very large increase might* properly be made in the grant for the purpose of government in the North-west Territories, but I do not think it would be proper for me, or for any other member, to endeavour to make such comparisons. We from the North-west Territories, at all events, are not seetionalists, we believe in nationalism, we believe in coming into the House and advocating only that which will be for the general benefit of Canada. I hope the day will never come when I will be found here advocating anything which. I have not proved to myself, at least, and which I have not some reasonable ground for believing I can convince the House is for the general benefit of Canada. While X am not going to endeavour to make any comparisons between the expenditures in one part of the country and in another, I am going to say, and I think this principle has been largely followed, that wherever any service seems to be advisable and necessary this House should endeavour to provide adequately for that service. I believe that is the proper principle, and I believe that if that principle be applied in this case, parliament will at the present session grant a very large increase in the vote for the purpose of governing locally the North-west Territories. Just to show what is the position of the local authority up there at the present time, I will quote a few brief figures. In the year 1899 the grant made by parliament for government in the North-west Territories was $283,000, but the total amount expended that year by the local authorities was $414,000. There is, of course, a small local re-
30G9

venue which is year by year increasing to some extent. For four or five years it has amounted annually to $30,000 or $40,000, and it is expected that this year and from this on the local revenue will not be less than perhaps $80,000 or $90,000, which is largely derived from a small direct tax which has been placed upon land. But [DOT] while the total expenditure in 1899 amounted to $414,000, and the total grant from this parliament was only $283,000, the explanation is that in that year the Yukon was still to a certain extent within the administration of the local authorities of the North-west Territories, and from the Yukon a revenue of about $160,000 was obtained. That local revenue enabled the North-west government with fair adequacy to meet the wants of the country for that year. In the year 1900 the grant from this parliament was increased to $424,000, and with the local revenue the Northwest government had $465,000 at their disposal. For the year 1901 the estimates which the North-west government presented to Ottawa amounted to $600,000. That amount, on a close calculation by the Northwest government was deemed to be necessary to cover the actual needs of local government. The grant which they received from parliament for that year was only $357,000, the same amount as we find in the present estimates. The local authorities of the North-west Territories represented to the powers at Ottawa that the needs of that country for the year 1901 demanded $600,000, and they received only $357,000. What was done last year by the local authority to cover the evident deficiency was this:	The appropriation by this parliament is for the fiscal year from the 30th of June to the 30th of June following, but the financial year in the North-west Territories is the calendar year from the 31st December to 31st December following. The vote made by this parliament last year was intended to cover the period until June 30th, 1902, but the local government found that unless they took the whole vote that was made here last year and expended it within their calendar year of 1901, they could not commence to properly meet the needs of the people of that country, the cost of education and the cost of necessary public works. The position in which the North-west government finds itself to-day is, that an ordinary vote does not put them in the same position as they were in last year, because last year they were compelled to anticipate the money that should ordinarily have gone to them in the first half of this present calendar year. Suppose we vote $357,000 for this present year, the consequence is that the North-west authorities will only be able to expend within 1902 one-half of it, or a little over $175,000. Now, if their needs this year amount approximately to $600,000, it will not take this committee long to comprehend that if a very largely
increased appropriation is not made at the present time, the people in the North-west Territories who depend on the local government for their needs in the way of public works and education and local purposes generally, are going to be left in a very difficult position, and it will simply be impossible for the local government to meet these needs in any proper and adequate manner.
We had a discussion in the House yesterday upon the subject of immigration. It is unnecessary for me to say that at the present time the population in the whole of western Canada is increasing very largely. From a national point of view that is very encouraging, but from the point of view of the local government it is not an unmixed blessing to see hundreds of people literally pouring into that country daily, because every new settler means an additional tax upon the local governing authority. It means that increased expenditure will have to be made upon the construction of roads and bridges, because the greater the number of people in that country the greater the area settled, and it was found in practice last year that many of the new comers went upon areas which had not been before that time settled, and thus rendered necessary the construction of new roads and the building of culverts and bridges by the local authorities. Consequently, the local government of the Northwest cannot look upon this influx of immigration as an unmixed blessing from their point of view ; while from the larger point of view it is indeed a very encouraging circumstance that immigrants are coming into Canada to-day in larger numbers than they ever came in any previous time. In fact every newspaper one takes hold of from the western part of the country is half filled; with accounts of new settlers coming in with large quantities of settlers' effects, bringing added riches to the country. I had a note a couple of days ago from a gentleman at North Portal, who stated that in the previous week no less than 186 cars of settlers' effects had been passed through that port from the United States into western Canada. I had another letter this evening from a gentleman in Regina which is simply an illustration of what is occurring generally in that country. He writes me :
I wish you would Impress upon the department the necessity .of granting more assistance to the land agent here as soon as possible. The staff are over worked and still the work Is getting further and further behind, so that when letters are written here for information the parties have to wait a week or two before they can get an answer, and you can imagine how annoyed a man would be who, a stranger in the country, has ttf pay a weeks hotel bill or more while he is getting an answer to his letter. I do not know of any qualified persons here -whom you could appoint.
The condition of affairs in the country is becoming so prosperous that it is difficult to obtain people to accept positions in the public service.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the salary 1


Thomas Walter Scott: I think I can assure the Minister of the Interior that if he grants the needed assistance, I shall be able to find a person who will take the position, notwithstanding the great prosperity that exists. This letter goes on :
The agent tells me that during the first week of April over one hundred homestead entries were made at the office here. The rush of Americans in over the Soo line has assumed tremendous proportions, the railway company being unable to handle the traffic. It takes about a week for a car of settlers' effects to come from St. Paul to Moosejaw. There are not half a dozen homesteads between Regina and the Soo line, the only part of the south plain where there are any homesteads being 'along the Areola extension and I don't think that there will be any there in three months.
As 1 say, nearly every letter one receives from the North-west Territories and nearly every paper that comes to hand, is tilled with intelligence about hundreds of newcomers who are arriving daily in that country. The Winnipeg ' Free Press,' which came to hand to-night, states that on Wednesday of this week no less than 1,000 settlers arrived in Winnipeg, and a very considerable proportion of all the settlers who arrive at Winnipeg go to some point in the North-west Territories. This is a very encouraging feature of the times, and I thoroughly agree with what was said by my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior last night, that we appear to be at the dawn of a new day. The present prospect is more encouraging than it has been at any time at least in my lifetime, and I think the committee will agree that it would be too bad if any check were given to the tendency of the people towards that country, by parsimony on the part of this House in dealing with the local needs of the people. As has often been said, any effort that may be put forth by this government to promote immigration must be secondary in effect to the work which will be done by satisfied settlers in the country, who, as is often said, are the best immigration agents. For my part, I think one of the most important duties coming within the purview of the Department of the Interior with regard to immigration is to see that the local needs, in the way of public works, education, and other things, are properly and adequately met. For these reasons, for my part-and I believe I speak for every member from the North-west Territories, and I believe as well that our friends from British Columbia and Manitoba will support us unanimously in this-I think the House should very largely increase the grant to the local government of the North-west Territories.


Mr. OLIVER.: I wish to support what has been said by the hon. member for Western Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) with regard to this vote for the government in the


Thomas Walter Scott: North-west Territories. It was with some considerable surprise that I saw in the estimates that the amount to be voted for this purpose for the coming year was no larger than the vote for the present year. 1 am at a loss to understand upon what basis of calculation this sum was arrived at. If it is necessary or desirable to meet the requirements of the public service in any part of the country, account must be taken of the increase of those requirements. Now, this whole country is ringing with a knowledge of the increase of population and therefore increase of requirements in the North-west, and that knowledge has produced no result in the way of meeting the requirements which necessarily arise. It may be said that the amount required for the purposes of the government of the North-west Territories is an uncertain amount. So it is. It is an amount which depends from time to time upon the requirements as they arise. With the increase of population, those requirements have increased' from year to year. By reason of climatic conditions during the past year, those needs have been tremendously emphasized. By reason of heavy rains, bridges have been washed out by the dozen, and a very large part of the revenues of the territorial government which should have gone to extend the facilities of travel throughout new settlements in the country, has been used up in replacing the damage done by the floods in older settlements. It may not be altogether plain to members of the House why an increase of population means an increase of requirements. The reason is that the territories have immense areas, compared to population. They are not at all on the same footing as the province of Manitoba, where the population is contained in less than one-third of the total area of the province, and the total area of Manitoba is not over one-fourth of the area over which settlement is scattered in the North-west. An increase of settlement in the province of Manitoba means simply a thickening up of the population, - and does not require the opening of new roads or the establishment of new school districts, and does not increase materially the expenses of government; while an increase of population in the Northwest Territories means that people have spread out into new country, necessitating new roads and new schools and an increase in every way and materially of expenses of government. It is of course under our present condition a matter of arrangement or consideration of this parliament what shall be done from year to year to meet financial conditions. That is not the fault of the people or the government of the North-west Territories. The government of the North-west Territories has approached this government repeatedly during past years, and most formally during the past year, asking for a definite financial arrangement based on the terms of confederation, as applied to the different provinces of the

Dominion. They are not here from time to time clamouring for unknown and unheard of amounts. They are asking simply that the government or parliament either meet the requirements of the case, as they arise from time to time, or else put the territories in the same financial position as the various provinces of the Dominion, so that they may enjoy as a right what they now must ask as a favour. I submit that the position is this :	This parliament and government
are required either to meet the conditions that exist by an adequate vote, or else to put the territories in the position of the various provinces of the Dominion as regards financial arrangements. Either one thing or the other, and the responsibility is upon the House and the government in the matter.
As to the amount that is demanded and the comparisons that may be made with regard to that amount, the vote for carrying on the government of the North-west Territories, which stands in the same position as a subsidy voted to one of the provinces- out of which provision must be made for the construction of public works of all classes throughout the Territories, chiefly roads and bridges, the requirements of education. and the administration of all the departments of government-amounts to only $208,0U0. That is the total amount provided for all the expenses of government of the Territories, which are, in the existing circumstances, necessarily higher proportionately than in any other portion of the Dominion. And it is to cost the country $445,000 in the coming year for the expenses to be incurred ir. endeavouring to bring people into the North-west. I claim, Mr. Chairman, that these two expenditures are not proportionate. I claim that if $445,000 be a reasonable expenditure to bring people into the country, $358,000 is not a reasonable sum with which to provide for all the needs of local government, both for the people wild are in the country now, and those who are to come in as the result of this expenditure on immigration work.
I need not add to what my hon. friend from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has said with regard to the effect that an inadequate provision for the needs of education, the opening of roads and the general matters of local government, must necessarily have on immigration into that country. The class of people who are going there in largest numbers are those whose first demand is for the facilities of schools and markets. They are an enterprising and an energetic people, who have built up the great country to the south of us, and who come over the line to build up a great country on our side. They will not be satisfied, unless they can have facilities for the education of their children and the ordinary advantages of civilization in due measure, as the circumstances permit. And now when those people are coming in large numbers, attracted by the desirability of our country, 97
it would be the worst policy that ever was entered upon, to stint the means whereby they may be rendered satisfied with the country. Do not forget that we had a rush of immigrants to the North-west many years ago, and at that time people seemed to think that the rush could not be stopped, but it was stopped and it remained stopped for nearly twenty years. There is a rush on again, and I counsel members of this House to take such measures that it shall not be stopped until that country has been satisfactorily developed. Every one knows that the best immigration agent is the contented settler. Therefore, our best policy is to provide adequate means to give intending settlers those advantages of civilization, which they will demand, and which they consider of the very highest importance. It is because these people look for these advantages of civilization and prize them so highly that they are valuable settlers. It is because they want schools and roads and good government that they are good settlers. People who would not make those demands, to whom it makes no difference whether or not there are schools or roads or good local government, are not the kind of people we want at all. They are dear at any price, and it is the best thing that ever happened this country that the people who are coming in and filling it up now are imbued with those civilizing tendencies.
I hope that the present government will see that the public services of the Northwest Territories are not starved at this critical stage in our history. I hope they will provide for those services according to the requirements, or else place the territories upon a provincial footing, so that there shall be no question about our rights in the matter.


Mr. DOUGLAS.: I only wish to make a few remarks in addition to what has already been said on this question. I would like to emphasize, if possible, in the mind of the committee, the statements that have been made by my hon. friend from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) and my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver). This question of an increased subsidy is a very important one in the estimation of the people generally. We should have either an increased subsidy or provincial autonomy. As far as I have given the matter attention, I think it would be much better for the country, in its existing circumstances, to receive an increased subsidy at present rather than provincial autonomy. I know that there is a tendency amongst many members of this House to say that we, the people in the west, are always clamouring for special advantages. They point to the early settlers of the older provinces in the east and tell us that we are looking to be spoonfed and ought to have the courage, endurance and hardihood of the early settler in Ontario and elsewhere. Let me say that the



people in tlie North-west, especially those who went in twenty years ago, have passed through experiences of hardship and endurance, which show that they really possess, in a large measure, those qualities of resistance, and patience, and have indicated by their persistent effort that they believe in the country and are willing to endure privation in order to make it prosperous. I do not think that the early settlers of Manitoba and the North-west are, in any sense, behind those of the eastern provinces. 1 can speak from experience, having lived in that country from 1883 to date. I know something about the hardships of the people in the early days_of that country.
In reference to public works, it is quite evident that the sum at the disposal of the government of the North-west Territories is wholly inadequate. I can speak with special knowledge of that part of the country that I represent, the eastern part of Assiniboia. Take, for instance, the district lying north and south of the Qu'Appelle river. It is true, we have some steel bridges that are a credit to the territorial government that erected them. But even they are of little use in the spring season. I venture to say that to-day the great majority of the people living on the north side of the river are not able to cross the valley or approach the bridges to reach the market with a load of grain. That is a hardship. They have grain on their hands that they are anxious to get rid of and to settle then-liabilities. But this they cannot do because the approaches to these bridges are in a state that altogether forbids their reaching the markets. Perhaps they will not be able to reach the markets till the end of May or the beginning of June. We have a local organization for the improvement of the roads, and this has been a step in the right direction. I! think the system is even superior in point of organization to the municipal arrangements of the older provinces. The local improvement districts of the North-west Territories are doing good work and proving that the scheme will be a great success. Up to the last three or four years it has been largely in the hands of the settlers to help themselves in making roads to reach their markets, to call upon their neighbour, and they collect a number of individual! who voluntarily gave their work to make the road. But the government has organized the local improvement districts which entails a direct tax upon each quarter section for the improvement of the roads. And that certainly, as I have said, is a step in the right direction. But I have always felt that the sum that was given for the government of the North-west Territories was entirely inadequate. It is quite true that we have a claim upon the treasury of this Dominion, in common with the other provinces to a certain amount per head according to population. But it seems to me, in view of the rapid growth of immigration and of the population of that Mr. DOUGLAS.
country that the future ought to be discounted by the present government and a very liberal allowance made for the increase, to enable the territorial government to make the provisions which the circumstances at present demand. The fact that we are spending more upon immigration than upon the government of that country is one argument for the increase of indemnity. There is another fact that I would like to point out to the committee. It may not be popular, perhaps, for me to call attention to it. We would not say that this Dominion is paying too much for the wards of the country and for our Indian population. I would not for a moment insinuate that the government is paying too much for the Indian youth of the North-west Territories. But it is a fact-I am not prepared to give the exact figures on the instant, but what I say can be verified- that we are spending more upon the Indian industrial schools of the North-west than for the whole government of those territories. Now, I would like to emphasize what has already been said that under existing circumstances something ought to be done and a very liberal addition ought to be made to the subsidy of the North-west Territories, and that at the present session.


Mr. MCCREARY.: ' I desire to say a very few words on this subject, first, because this affects the prairie country, and I would like to endorse the sentiments of my colleagues, and, second, because this is one of the most important questions that is to come before this House in the near future- the subsidy of the territories, or provincial autonomy therefor. I have been reading what has taken place in the House in Regina with regard to territorial autonomy and I must say that I was struck with the force of the arguments. But my own impression is that, at the present time, there are good arguments why provincial autonomy should not to be given to the territories. I believe that within the next three or four years, if immigration should continue as at present, the population of the territories will have so increased and so tended to certain portions of the territories that probably the local jealousies that now exist as to whether there should be one or two or three provinces, and where the capitals shall be, will have disappeared. I sometimes think also that they have not considered the expenditure that would devolve upon them if they had to govern themselves. Take, for instance, the mounted police. I am not sure, but I suppose the number of police in the territories must reach from five hundred to a thousand. If the duty of policing the country devolved upon the local government, what a large percentage of the subsidy got from this government it would take.
I believe the older provinces of Canada have not looked upon this matter in the proper light. Some hon. gentleman here said-

I think it was the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver)-that it is one thing to bring immigrants to the country and another to keep them here. I was one of the unfortunates who left this eastern part of Canada twenty-two years ago last month. 1 arrived in Winnipeg some time in March, got my ox and cart and started across the prairies with others. I shall never forget as long as I live some of the hardships l saw the settlers undergo. We met violent storms at Portage la Prairie, and further west where Brandon now is, and also about the locality of Rapid City. There were no towns there then. I have seen strong men shed tears when they saw their wives and children In water three or four feet deep trying to cross the creeks and ravines where there were no bridges. A large number of people left the country as soon as they could get out of it. I believe 85 per cent Of those who came from the British islands in 1882 and 1883 left that country before 1885. In the first place, they could not get to a market or to a railway centre. They saw no sign of civilization. They had no company and they got lonely. There were no post offices, they could not get a letter or Send one without going fifty or sixty miles. They had no schools, and their children were growing up in ignorance around them. That same condition exists in the territories and it will have the same effect if this government do not wake up to the facts. I know a family; I could give their names- I will give their names. Mr. Richard Lyons and his family, who settled in Manitoba, thirty-five miles from Swan River, in 1898. Mr. Lyons had eleven of a family and came from the north of Ireland. Although we have provincial government there, he remained there for fifteen months before he had a school or post office nearer than Swan River thirty-fire miles away. He wrote me letters, aiyl in one of them he said : 1 will leave this country in three months, unless I can get a school or post office. I wrote to the superintendent of immigration and finally succeeded in meeting his wishes. That is one example of the kind of thing that may happen in the territories.
Now, Mr. Chairman, when you think of 8357,000, with, I think 840,000 the hon. gentleman said of local revenue, say $400,000 altogether, to supply all the municipal and other services required in that vast territory, I think any man who has had experience in municipal matters must wonder how it has been done. Most of you who live in cities and towns in Ontario probably know the condition here in Ottawa, as I know the condition in the city of Winnipeg. The revenue of the city of Winnipeg is some $635,000, of which $135,000 is paid yearly for schools. The revenue of the city of Winnipeg, a town of 50,000 inhabitants, is nearly double the sum with which they have to govern that whole territory 500 miles by 400 miles. I ask if that is fair. I say it is great credit to the 97i
Hon. Mr. Haultain and his colleagues that they have been able to administer the affairs of that government as economically as they have done during the last ten years. I do not believe there is a province in Canada where the same amount of money has yielded so much benefit to the people as has the money spent by the territorial government.
Hon. gentlemen from the east may think this is pecularily a western question. Now it is not, it is more an eastern matter. A great many gentlemen on the other side of the House live in cities and towns which are manufacturing centres. For instance, we have three members from Toronto, none of them here to-night. I would ask those gentlemen in the city of Toronto who understand the Massey-Harris people, what a good settler is worth to the Massey-Harris people every year. I ask them what every new family who goes into the territories is worth to the manufacturers of eastern Canada. They are worth nothing to western Canada in that way, we have no manufacturers, we have no implements, no cloth, woollens nor cottons, no fruits-everything these people have to buy must come from the east. Every settler you put there increases the wages of your artisans, increases the population of your cities and towns in Ontario. It does not help us half as much as it helps you people here, and I think it is your duty to wake up to the fact that the more settlers you get in there the larger your towns will grow, and the higher the value of your lands will become in older Canada. I say this is a matter of gigantic importance. I believe that in the supplementary estimates to be brought down this session a very large sum of money should be granted in aid of the people of the territories. Bear in mind also that while the population that is going in there now very largely comes from the United States, Europe and Great Britain, a considerable percentage, in fact I should imagine 30 or 40 per cent, are your own brothers, and sisters, and sons from the eastern provinces. Are you going to allow them to endure the hardships that your forefathers had to endure here in the Ottawa district, and other districts of eastern Canada ? I say times have changed, and those people should have enough money to support their schools, to build their bridges, and to make the necessary improvements to keep pace with the advancing population. I may remark to the Postmaster General, as I remarked the other day to his deputy, that he should not expect to get, in a new country like that, sufficient revenue to run the post offices. In Ontario where your farmers are settled on 50 to 100 acres of land, it is quite easy to have a post office where there is no settler further than three miles from the post office; but out there where the settler has got to occupy 320 acres of land to make it pay, you cannot expect, at least for some


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time, that the post offices are going to pay. You have got to charge up any deficiency in your postal department to some other appropriation. you can charge it to immigration if you like. But I say post offices ought to be given to the people out there without any regard to whether there is sufficient revenue to make them pay. I think that in the subsidies to be brought down at a subsequent period of the session, there should be a sum of at least $200,000 or $250,000 to supplement the grants already made to provide for running the territories.
Andrew B. Ingram: Hon. gentlemen from the North-west Territories have referred to this matter as being of interest to eastern members, and I take the liberty of discussing it from that point of view. I listened with a great deal of attention to the remarks of the hon. member for Assini-boia (Mr. Scott), and of the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat (Mr. McCreary), who represents a Manitoba constituency. The point these gentlemen from the territories made was that a provincial government should be granted to the people of the territories. The hon. member for Selkirk says it should not be given to the territories owing to the friction that exists there at the present time.


William Forsythe McCreary: I did not say that.


Andrew B. Ingram: I took down his words, and I think that is what he said. Now, I would like to ask my hon. friend, and the minister too, if there is friction now, and we all know there is more or less, how is it going to be avoided if you create the territory into a province ? Doubtless these gentlemen have perused the report of negotiations that have taken place between the authorities of the North-west Territories and the Dominion government ; they know full well that for some years past a strong agitation has taken place there with a view of forming those territories into a province. Why ? Because the people find that the immigrants coming in there in large numbers have changed the conditions, and entail additional expense on the government of the territories, and that the amount at present given by the Dominion government is insufficient. Therefore they are agitating for a provincial government so that they may be put on the same footing as other provinces.
Now, I think the Minister of the Interior said in his letter to the Hon. Mr. Haultain that the population in the North-west Territories was" too sparse, that was one of the reasons why the government of Canada refused to organize the territories into a province. The next reason given was that the increased population going into those territories was changing the conditions, and that the government of Canada did not think it wise at present to organize a province, as it might soon be necessary to have more


William Forsythe McCreary: provinces than one. The Minister of the Interior, in his letter of the 21st of March, 1901, admitted that this question was of the utmost importance to the people of the North-west Territories. I think he suggested that the authorities of the territories should meet the federal executive with a view of arriving at some conclusion on the matter. I think these are three of the points in that letter sent by the Hon. Mr. Sifton stating why the Dominion government did not grant their prayer. Now, we are in Committee of the Whole here and my hon. friends from the North-west are in a position to speak more than once on this question. Let me ask them, do they differ with the Minister of the Interior in his conclusion, and if they do, will they say so ? They must know something of the facts iu the document brought down in the North-west Assembly the other day. Do they consider that the territory there mentioned should comprise one province or more ? If they think it should comprise more than one province I think it is their duty to say so in this House. The people of Canada should not be kept in the dark on this subject. It is in the interest of the people of the east as well as of the west to know whether there should be one province or two, and whether the territorial government is at present administered in the interest of the people of Canada as a whole.
There is another question and it is whether the present machinery of the territories can be extended cheaper than creating new machinery. The question is whether there is any justification for refusing to organize these territories into a province. If we go to the far eastern provinces of Canada we find that the population comprising what is now the province of Prince -Edward Island was much less when it was organized into a province than the population of the territories to-day.


William Forsythe McCreary: It had a much smaller population.


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, a much smaller population. We find also that the territories today have as large a population as British Columbia when British Columbia was brought in as a province.


Thomas Walter Scott: Quite a bit larger.


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, quite a bit larger. Now, let us make a comparison with the area of the North-west Territories with that of British Columbia. Ontario and Quebec. If the territories are brought in as they are proposed to be, I believe the area of the new province sought to be organized would be about 302.000 square miles. British Columbia has 3S3.000 square miles. Ontario 222,000 square miles, and Quebec 228.000 square miles. I find that so far as area is concerned, the people of the North-west Territories are as much entitled to be organized

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into a province as are these other provinces which I have named and so tar as population is concerned they are in a better position than Prince Edward Island and British Columbia. If the people of the North-west Territories are organized into a province I hold that they would be able as local authorities to understand their requirements very much better than we could as members of this House or as members of the Dominion government. I say that it would be better in the interests of the local government that the request should be acceded to and that the reasons given by the lion. Minister of the Interior are not sufficient why these people should be refused to be organized into a province. Some better reason should be given why these people should be refused that which they believe to be in their own interests. I,et as take another point : I recognize that there are some very ticklish questions that come up in the different provinces. 1 recognize that the British North America Act gives each province certain rights as to the administration of its own affairs, and we know as a matter of fact that the residents of the North-west Territories of all classes and of all creeds will be alive to their interests, and that once you undertake to organize them into a province and give them rights under the British North America Act they will be very jealous of these rights and may be hard to please. Is that the chief reason why the government refuse to organize these people into a province ? It strikes me. after considering the whole question as carefully as I can, that there is really more in that objection than there is in the reasons given by the hon. minister who represents the government in this matter. I do not desire to take up more of the time of the committee, nor do I wish to advocate an expensive form of government, but, taking the views of the representatives who come from the Northwest Territories, who have expressed themselves in favour of -the organization of these territories into a province. I for one. feel that if they can do that without imposing any additional burdens on the people of the country, they are justified in advocating that course.
Mr. MoCREARY. Leaving to one side the question of provincial autonomy for the territories at present, leaving that question to be settled by the territorial government at the next general elections, we will say. taking the situation as we find it, may I ask the hon. gentleman if he will endorse the government in increasing the subsidy by, say $200.00(1 a year ? Let him commit himself upon that point.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) has not been long enough in this House to get an answer from me to a question of that kind. I have been too long in this House to answer any questions of that kind. If the members of
the opposition occupied seats on the government side of the House, I would be very glad to hear the leader of my party answer that question.


Frank Oliver: In consequence of the suggestion thrown out by the hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram), it may be thought by members of the committee that there was some question as to the positipn taken by the government of the North-west Territories on this subject of provincial organization. There is no question whatever on that point. The North-west territorial government has gone so far as to lay a proposed Bill for the establishment of the territories into a province before the government


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) approve of that Bill as he finds it ?


Frank Oliver: I think, if the Bill is agreed to in all its provisions, that it would be a very satisfactory arrangement, but, of course, whether I would agree to the formation of a province or not would depend entirely on the terms of the agreement. I hope the hon. gentleman will understand that, but I think that I would be perfectly safe in endorsing the Bill as it is prepared. If a province can be secured on those terms I think it would be a satisfactory arrangement to the people of the territories. What I wanted to particularly point out was that the people of the territories are not responsible in any shape or manner for coming to this parliament and making any indefinite demand. They came and made a definite demand and if that definite demand is not accepted, then, we say, the only alternative you should take is that you should ascertain what their requirements are and meet these requirements. I wish to add to what the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) has said in regard to the making of expenditures in the territories. I had the honour to be a member of the local assembly for a number of years and without going into details 1 will back up the broad assertion made by that hon. gentleman that there is no province in this Dominion, and there is no country in the world, where every dollar of revenue goes as far in meeting the actual requirements of the public service as-in the North-west Territories. That is as has been and that is as it is.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) a question. The hon. gentleman has not answered the point raised by the hon. Minister of the Interior, representing the government. He said that organization having been refused he is prepared to take the alternative of increasing the subsidy as the next best thing, but the point that the hon. gentleman who represents the North-west Territories should make clear is this : Does the hon. gentleman approve of the ground and steps taken by the hon. Minister of the Interior, repre-

senting the government ? Does he think the reasons given by the hon. Minister of the Interior are sufficient reasons for refusing the North-west Territories organization into a province.


Frank Oliver: When a Bill on the subject is presented to the House and the hon. minister gives his reasons I will be prepared to discuss them.


Andrew B. Ingram: The minister has given his reasons.


Frank Oliver: In the words of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) I have been too long in the House. The question under consideration at the present time is, the vote of certain moneys, and that is what we are to discuss now and not to answer all questions under the sun.


Andrew B. Ingram: Here is the statement made by the Minister of the Interior to Mr. Haultain :
Respecting present financial requirements the question of an increase in your subsidies is now receiving consideration, but the result eanno; as you are aware be communicated until Die estimates are brought before parliament. This, I have reason to hope will take place in a very short time.
Here are the estimates now, and instead of an increase there is a decrease of $10,000. Last year there were $435,350 and this year they are $425,359.


Thomas Walter Scott: What I spoke about was the vote of $357,000 which is in reality the subsidy granted to the North-west Territories. There are some other items included in this vote, but that is the subsidy, and it is tbe same as last year.


Andrew B. Ingram: And those other items appeared last year in the vote, and the fact remains that the vote for the North-west Territories is $10,000 less. The minister should tell us why this vote is not increased, and whether lie intends to increase it or not. The member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) told us that this question was second to none in importance before this parliament, and if that be so ; and hon. gentlemen from the North-west Territories being friends ef the government they have the public documents at their disposal in the departments, and they should be prepared to come to this House and tell us whether they endorse the action of the government on that question or not. They have not done so, and it appears they are not going to do so. As an eastern member of this House, I say that the three objections raised in the letter of the Minister of the Interior are not sufficient to warrant the government in refusing to give an increased subsidy.


Frank Oliver: We are now discussing tbe vote for the North-west Territories and the hon. member (Mr. Ingram) ought to be satisfied that we have placed ourselves thoroughly on record on that point.


Andrew B. Ingram: Mi-. BOYD. I wish to say a few words on this question, and principally for the reason that last winter I had the pleasure of attending a public meeting at Indian Head in East Assiniboia, where about 1,000 people were gathered to discuss this very question as to whether the territories should or should not have their own provincial government or governments. Whatever doubt Mr. Haultain may have had previous to that meeting, there was not the slightest doubt that the people present there were quite unanimous on the question. I could not help smiling when I heard the members for the territories speaking, and when I watched the only three or four ministers present and how they acted. The Postmaster General and the Minister of Finance were industriously reading their newspapers; the Minister of Agriculture was busy with his letters ; they were all very indifferent, and they thought the question of so little account that they took the first opportunity to get up and slide out of the House. They have left the whole thing to the Minister of tile Interior. It is true that he has told tlie people of Manitoba and the North-west tiiat he assumes responsibility, and is to be held responsible for tbe management of that country, but if he were to tell us what he thinks to-night-I do not expect he will for he has been too long in the House for that- lie would tell us that he really believes that lie would give the people of the territories what they want. Tlie objection raised by tlie lion, gentleman for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) is not a good one. He tells us that when the country fills up with people we will be better able to know whether it is better to have one or two provinces-


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Might I interrupt my boil, friend to ask him what he refers to when lie says ' what the people want ' ?


Nathaniel Boyd: What the people desire. In reply to the statement of the hon. member for Selkirk, I may say that every one knows that this question can lie settled with a, great deal less difficulty now than it caq years hence, when the population becomes larger. Tlie gentlemen who represent the North-west Territories know tiiat very well. They know that the larger the population the more diversified will be the opinion, and the greater the difficulty in settling that question as to whether it shall be one province or whether it shall be' two provinces or three provinces. The meeting at Indian Head was equally divided as to whether it should be one or two provinces. I am speaking now, frankly as a man who viewed the proceedings there impartially.-


Thomas Walter Scott: Will the hon. gentleman permit me to interrupt him ?


Nathaniel Boyd: Yes, all you like.


Thomas Walter Scott: What evidence has the hon. gentleman that that meeting was equally divided in its opinion ?

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Nathaniel Boyd: The applause that was given to each of the speakers. How would you judge the feeling of a meeting, except by the sentiments expressed by the people in front of you. Now then, I say that the government might just as well face the question at once. If we knew the truth of the matter I believe we would find that this is one of the questions that the cabinet is fighting like blazes about, because has not the Minister of Public Works told us that they frequently fight like blazes on different questions ? If the truth were known, it is one of the questions which is causing trouble to this cabinet, formed of the ex-ministers of different provinces. It is not a question of finance or a question of the division of the territory, that is causing the delay. The government might just as well admit that the delay is caused by the question of the schools, and the question of the language, and don't think for a moment that the people in the North-west are not pretty well aware of that. You might just as well face the question now, and the less people you have in the territories the more easily it can be dealt with. At the Indian Head meeting the complaint was that the territories were not able to aid railways, were not able to do what they would do in the matter of transportation, and what they would do if they had their provincial government. That is the important question that is now agitating the people of the territories. I agree with my hon. friend from East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) that the gentlemen representing the territories should .speak out frankly on this subject. I understand the difficulties of supporters of a government. I have been over there. But if they would speak out frankly and say whether or not they approve of the action of the government in this instance, they would be giving much more satisfaction to their constituents than they are doing by the little by-play which we have had here this evening.


James Moffat Douglas: If the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat draws his conclusions from the meeting at Indian Head, he is very gravely mistaken as to the state of feeling on this question in Eastern As-siniboia. I think I can safely say that not one-tenth of the people there are in favour of provincial autonomy in the immediate future. They know that it must come and that we must prepare for it; but it would saddle additional burdens on the people. They feel that under existing circumstances they could not carry out even a complete municipal organization because of the sparseness of settlement. There may perhaps be a few people or a considerable number of people about Indian Head who desire provincial autonomy, who have the opinion that it would enable them to get more support for the development of the country in the way of building railways. I remember very well the argument of Mr. Haultain, the premier of the North-west
Territories. He argued that there should be only one province, because the larger ( the province the greater its facility in raising money to build railroads; but if that is an argument, then it is better that the Territories should remain under the supervision of the Dominion government, which has better credit in the money markets of the world than any province could possibly have. Therefore, under existing circumstances and for some years to come, I think we are better as we are than we could possibly be with provincial autonomy. We know it must come, and no progressive settler would desire to retard it unduly; but just now it would certainly impose additional burdens on the people, and, voicing the sentiment of Eastern A^siniboia, I would state decidedly that as far as I can interpret the feeling of the people, they are not in favour of provincial autonomy immediately.


Nathaniel Boyd: As the hon. gentleman has been a long time in tiie country, I would like to ask him how long a time would it be before it would be ready for provincial autonomy ? I am very glad he has placed himself squarely before his people on this point.


James Moffat Douglas: Quite so ; we do not hesitate at all. In meetings where we have opportunities to test the feelings of the people, they do not support the immediate formation of new provinces. I am not prepared to say how long it should be. If the population goes on increasing as it has been doing of late years, it may come in the near future ; but certainly, under existing circumstances, I am not prepared to advocate the immediate organization of the country into provinces.


Robert Laird Borden: Would not the question of additional burdens depend altogether on the terms under which the Northwest Territories were formed into a province ? And are not the hon. gentleman and his friends arguing now that the subsidies should be increased ? If the subsidies were increased and the territories were formed into a province, what difference would it make ? I do not understand the logical conclusion of the hon. gentleman's remarks.


James Moffat Douglas: We are asking an increase in the subsidy not as a matter of charity, but as a matter of right, in view of the increased population and the growing demands on the funds of the territorial government, because it is found that they cannot possibly overtake the work which is brought under their notice, retain the population, and minister to their comfort and consolidation in the country without an addition to the subsidy. As I understand, a certain amount has been granted in each province per head of the population. This the government has been

30S8
plea s(;d to grant in past years, and sometimes they have discounted the future, and at periods of some ten years have drawn on the fund in favour of the province or the territory. What we wish them to do in this case, in view of the rapid increase of population, is not only to give ns the proportionate grant per head that is given in the other provinces, hut to discount the future and enable the government of the territories to overtake the work which is piling up in their hands.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps I have not made myself clear to my hon. friend ; but certainly he has not made himself very clear to me. I asked him how provincial autonomy could possibly increase the burdens of the people if adequate terms were given to the North-west Territories, which I understand perfectly are being asked, not as a matter of charity, but as a matter of right. I did not suggest that they were asked as a matter of charity. Whether or not the territories are formed into a province cannot possibly affect the burdens of the people, if a subsidy which the Northwest Territories regard as adequate is given to them when they are formed into a province ; fjnd we know that such an adequate subsidy is being asked now. Then, how can the establishment of provincial government in the territories result in any additional burdens on the people ?


James Moffat Douglas: I think I can answer the hon. gentleman's question. The burdens I have reference to are simply these : If we have two provinces, or probably three, we shall require three separate sets of buildings, three sets of organization, and a large body of officials all over the country, which at present we do not need. It is one thing to speak of one of the older provinces maintaining municipal organization to the full extent to which it is enjoyed in Ontario and Quebec, and quite another thing to deal with a country where the people live four or six or eight miles apart, and where you may have a stretch of fifteen miles with nobody living upon it. Hon. gentlemen need to know the country, the immensity of the area, and the necessity of this area being filled up, in order to maintain and carry out with comfort and success municipal organization. So that we believe the burdens of the people would be very largely increased, and the taxation would became much higher than it is in any of the older provinces. Hence we say it is better to delay somewhat the organization of the country into provinces, and to wait until it is more fully settled.


Andrew B. Ingram: I take it, from the remarks of the hon. gentleman, that in the constituency he represents the feeling of the people is not in favour of provincial organization. I understand that the majority of the local representatives coming from


James Moffat Douglas: his constituency support Mr. Haultain's government. I find that at Yorktou, which I think is in the hon. gentleman's constituency, Mr. Haultain made this statement- I am quoting from the hon. member for West Assiniboia :
Before the local elections in 1898, the Hon. Mr. Haultain spoke at various points throughout the territories on this subject, and I shall quote from the language he used at one place to show that even three years ago this change war. looked forward to and that the present legislature of the territories was in reality given a mandate to open up negotiations with respect to the subject. Speaking at Yorkton, the Hon, Mr. Haultain said :
If the financial question is capable of other solution, I will be satisfied to remain as at present. The only thing there seems to be to do is to think at least of negotiating for provincial establishment. I feel convinced that it will be the principal work of the new legislature before the end of its four years' term to enter into such negotiations. With the greater development that now seems1 assured, the needs in respect of schools and improvement will certainly develop. Outside of direct taxation, there seems no possibility of a solution except by provincial establishment.
That language was used, I take it, all over the territories during the contest previous to 1898. Then what do we find ? Wheu these very same representatives went to the North-west Territories legislature, this document, with several other sections was passed unanimously by the representatives of the North-west Territories. And here is a sample of these several clauses that passed unanimously in the North-west Territories legislature, that deals with the question of provincial organization :
4. And whereas, in the said address it was represented to Her Majesty as a reason for the extension of the Dominion of Canada westward, that the welfare of the population1 of these territories would be materially enhanced by the formation therein of political institutions bearing analogy, as far as circumstances will admit, to those which existed in the several provinces then forming the Dominion.
That was passed unanimously with the other clauses in this resolution. That shows that the people of the territories are in favour of provincial organization, and the sentiment in the constituency represented by the hon. gentleman must be strongly in favour of that course. That being the case,
I cannot understand how he nan oppose that policy here. I can understand why he personally should be opposed to it. Take, for instance, the tax levied now for school and road purposes. Is it not a fact that it is fairly high in the territories just now ? Would it be reduced if they had provincial organization or increased ?


James Moffat Douglas: Increased.


Andrew B. Ingram: That being tlie case, and the hon. gentleman being a large landholder, I can understand that he might object to the formation of provincial government for the reason that it would interfere with him directly.


James Moffat Douglas: Ob, no.
Mr. INGIiAM. It plight cost him something. I do not say that that is the case, but where a large landholder migiit find his taxes increased were the territories given provincial organization, that might be a justifiable reason for his opposing such a policy. I do not charge him with being-actuated by such a motive, because of course it is not his personal interest that he is considering, but the interests of his constituents.


Thomas Walter Scott: If the fears which the hon. gentleman attribute to my hon. friend from East Assinaboia (Mr. Douglas) have any basis in fact, the same cause would no doubt prompt every person in the territories to oppose our being given provincial powers.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then they should not support the resolutions in favour of provincial autonomy


Thomas Walter Scott: The hon. gentleman from Elgin (Mr. Ingram) was not frank enough to answer the question put to him. Very properly, in connection with the item in the estimates to provide a sum to enable the North-west government to carry on its administration this year, a straight question was put, and he declined to answer it. I shall be more frank than he was. I notice that he had last year's ' Hansard ' before him. pe has been quoting from the remarks I made last year on the subject of autonomy. and probably does not need to be told what my answer is to the question he asked North-west members to answer. I Said that I believed the time had come when the question of giving the territories provincial rights should be taken up and dealt with. A.s far as I am concerned, I believe that the people in the territories in general are ready to accept provincial autonomy. Of course they are not unanimous, and I think that if the powers at Ottawa wait until they are, they will wait until Kingdom come, because neither on that or any other question will the people of so large an area ever entertain one opinion. It is a fact, as has been stated by my hon. friend opposite, that the population of the territories now is vastly larger than was that of Manitoba when that part of the country was formed into a province. It is probably 600 or 700 per cent greater, and if the population of the'North-west Territories is not as large to-day as that of the province of British Columbia with a smaller area, it will be before the close of the present year.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the population of the territories and British Columbia respectively ?


Thomas Walter Scott: According to the census of a year ago, the population of the Northwest Territories was in the neighbourhood of 1(50,000 and that of British Columbia a little less than 200,000; but we received in the territories last year a very large immigration, the exact number of which cannot be stated. To-day, however, I think we have a population of between 180,000 and 100,000, and probably before the end of tin; year it will have swelled to 220,000 or 230,000. I have stated my own opinion very positively, but at the same time there is a large number of people who are very much of tlie opinion expressed by my hon. friend from East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas), and as has been stated by Mr. Haultain, the premier of the territories-whose remarks were quoted a moment ago-if a sufficient grant were made annually by this parliament, there would be no cry from the territories for provincial establishment.


James Moffat Douglas: Hear, hear.


Thomas Walter Scott: Year after year, however, the local authorities in the territories have been obliged to come to Ottawa for an increase in the grant. In some years they obtained an increase fairly satisfactory, but the position taken by the North-west government to-day is that which I am supporting. If my hon. friends in this government would agree to an increase perfectly satisfactory for this year, still it would be better for the territories that the question of provincial establishment should be taken up and dealt with, because next year we will find our needs again largely increased, and the Minister of the Interior would have a difficult task in obtaining from this House the increase required. Even if he were able to provide this year the necessary increase, one which would be perfectly satisfactory, the position next year would be just as it has been heretofore.
The testimony which has been borne by my hon. friends from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) and Alberta (Mr. Oliver) to the character of government which the people of the territories have been enjoying for years past, is a fair argument which can be urged in favour of their being granted provincial autonomy. I am willing to join in the assertion which has been made that better government than has been enjoyed in the last ten years by the people of the territories has not been enjoyed by the people of any province in the Dominion. We have as able, shrewd, judicious and careful men at the head of our government as are at the head of government in any province of the Dominion. We have an educational system, which was framed by Premier Haultain. and in which my hon. friend from Alberta had a hand, when he was a member of the legislative assembly, which has not a superior anywhere in the Dominion. We have in the matter of education, a system as satisfactory as that which now prevails in Manitoba, and we have arrived at that position without any of the turmoil which was created before the Manitoba system could be brought to its present satisfactory state. But we are getting a little beside the question. I did not intend this evening to give rise to any lengthy discussion upon


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Thomas Walter Scott: Whatever dispute there may be about the name, there is no question that it lives up to the name of a revenue tariff, for under it Canada has been getting a sufficient revenue. And it has been a matter of pride to us that every service that has required looking after has been generously, properly and adequately looked after. But, unless a very considerable increase is made in the vote for the North-west Territories there is one item in which we shall be obliged to admit that there is no cause for pride.


Robert Laird Borden: I am glad, that,, in one respect the education of my hon. friend (Mr. Scott) is improving. I think lie is one of the gentlemen who were not able to understand the meaning of the word ' adequate ' in a resolution lately moved in this House. I have noticed that in the various addresses with which he has favoured the House, he has used that word at least fifteen or twenty times this evening. It is evident that during the period intervening he has made excellent use of the dictionary. I trust that some hon. gentlemen: who laboured under the same difficulty have been employing their leisure in the same excellent way.


Thomas Walter Scott: I have been trying to learn the resolution by heart.


Robert Laird Borden: I am glad my hon. friend's endeavours have had such excellent results. There is a good deal of food for reflection in what the hon. gentleman has said. I, for one, am convinced that the administration of the government of the North-west Territories must have been carried on in a very excellent way in order to have given ithe people any semblance of provision for the public service, seeing they have what seems to me a very meagre sum, considering the large number of people and the enormous territory that has to b'e dealt with. It does seem that this service cannot, out of such a subsidy, be provided for quite as well a,s the people of the North-west have a right to expect having regard to the interests which have been mentioned by hon. gentlemen opposite. I am still not quite clear as to what my hon. friend from East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) means when he says that provincial autonomy would increase the burdens of the people. There are certain services to be provided for in the North-west. They must either be provided for by the people in that country themselves, or they must be provided for by all the people of the

country, that is, through the Dominion government. I do not see how the adoption of provincial autonomy will necessarily affect the question one way or the other. It is entirely a question of the terms upon which autonomy is established. My hon. friend who has just taken his seat (Mr. Scott) has brought to the attention of the House certain services upon which a good deal of money has been spent in this country. We on this side might add to the illustrations he has given. I might point out to the hon. gentleman that the bringing down of a contract with respect to the building of a railway in the Yukon eight days before the meeting of this parliament has resulted in a claim against the government which will probably cost this country nearly as much as the whole grant to the North-west Territories in one year.


Thomas Walter Scott: That was the fault of an out of date Senate.


Robert Laird Borden: I would be inclined to think it was the fault of a government that was not able to wait for eight days until the jiarliament met and the matter could be dealt with. Of course, these are different points of view. Another thing I would call the attention of the hon. gentlemen to is that this government spent, I think unnecessarily-and I think anybody who fairly examines the evidence will say unnecessarily-in the purchase of the Drummond County Railway, enough to double the subsidy to the Territories for five or six years. The same remark is true of the contract this government made with regard to the Grand Trunk Railway and also with regard to a great many public works in respect to which, during the past five or six years, enormous sums of mouey have been, as I believe, spent unjustifiably and extravagantly. I have no doubt that if a proper system of administration had been adopted with regard to a great many of these /works, the amount granted to the Northwest Territories might have been increased 50 per cent during the past five or six years without increasing the burdens of the people of this country by a single dollar. As my hon. friend has brought some illustrations with regard to this subject, I thought it only right to remind him of this, because he has given me some food for reflection in the sensible remarks he has made, and I desire to give him food for reflection with regard to these matters, and I trust he will take my remarks as much to heart as I have *in all sincerity taken to heart the remarks he has addressed to the House on that subject.


Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).: At last we have had one member from the North-west Territories on the other side of the House coming out and expressing himself as strongly opposed, at the present time at any rate, to provincial autonomy being granted to the territories. I think he is the only
member from the North-west Territories who has had the boldness to come out and in explicit terms to take that stand. But that hon. gentleman, I think, when he was elected in 1898, came to this House as an independent, he came as representing a patron organization, and he rather scorned the average Conservative or Liberal who came down here to be caucused with the rest of the members, and to respond to the party lash. I notice that he is now just as servile a supporter of the government as you will find on the other side, and he does not think it any disgrace now to be caucused with other members, and to respond to the party lash with the best of them ; so much so, that he is willing to give credit to the government for having taken a stand that will displease the peopie of the territories, in refusing to grant them provincial autonomy at the present time.


James Moffat Douglas: May 1 ask a question ? The people of the west have not asked for provincial autonomy, and the member for East Assiniboia (Sir. Douglas) is not advocating nor opposing provincial autonomy. He has only stated that in his judgment the time has not fully come when it ought to be given, but it must come in the near future.


William James Roche: Now the hon. member for East Assiniboia lias stated that the people of the North-west Territories have not asked for provincial autonomy. I would like to know who their government represents. Does not the government represent the people ? Do they not voice the sentiments of the people, and has not the territorial assembly asked this parliament to grant them provincial autonomy ? You may just as well say that this government do not represent the people of Canada at the present time, as in many things I grant they do not. But the member for East Assiniboia stated in his remarks that he did not think the time had fully come when it would be wise to grant provincial autonomy. I do not know what he means by that qualified statement. Probably next session, if the government comes down with a BUI granting provincial autonomy, he will be the first to get up and give them credit for it, stating that he is very glad to see them do it, and I have no doubt that had they taken that stand on this occasion, he would have been equally ready to give them credit for so'doing. That shows what a good-party man he is. Now after the declaration of the Minister of the Interior he falls in with the views of the government and says lie believes the people of the territories do not desire provincial autonomy at the present time. One reason, he says, is that it will increase the burdens of the people. I tliiuk the question asked by the lender of the opposition was very appropriate, and I could not see exactly what the member for East Assiniboia meant in his reply. As the leader of the opposition has said, it rests en-

tirely with the two governments as to whether the burden of the people will be increased or not, according to the terms that will be made. I agree with the members from the territories that the present subsidy is not adequate; and by the way, the leader of the opposition took the words out of my mouth when he jollied the member from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) on his education having been advanced to that position that he understands that word adequate far better than he did when the budget debate was on.


William Forsythe McCreary: Probably the hon. gentleman will be a little more definite on tftis point than he was on the tariff, and say what an adequate amount will be.


William James Roche: I will reply to the hon. member in the words of the leader of the government when he was in opposition, that is time enough to prescribe when you are called in. I hope the hon. gentleman will agree hi the opinion of his chief. I admit that the subsidy granted at the present time to the territories is not sufficient, and if autonomy was granted to those territories, as a Manitoban I would be quite agreeable to see better terms granted to the new province, for then we would have a lever to get a little better terms ourselves. The member for West Assiniboia says that at the present time, if the subsidy was increased, the people of the territories would prefer not to have autonomy. I do not agree with that sentiment. I think there is a feeling in the average elector of the west that the subsidy should be increased.


Thomas Walter Scott: Does the hon. gentleman attribute that opinion to me ?


William James Roche: The hon. member said a few minutes ago that if an additional subsidy was granted to the Northwest Territories the people would not ask for provincial autonomy. If the hon. member looks in the ' Hansard ' to-morrow he will find that statement.


Thomas Walter Scott: If I said that, I said something that I did not mean to say.


William James Roche: I took down the hon. gentleman's words, and I think he will find that declaration in the 'Hansard.'


Thomas Walter Scott: I think I said that, even if the subsidy for this present year were made entirely satisfactory, I would still think there was good reason for asking for a final settlement, because next year, with the increase in population, and the increased needs for an additional amount of money, the Minister of the Interior would be in the same difficulty as has been experienced in the past in obtaining the increase annually made necessary by increasing population and needs.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman should thank me for having drawn Mr. ROCHE (Marquette).
his attention to his statement, as it has given him an opportunity of setting himself right, and to-morrow he will have an opportunity of revising his speech in the ' Hansard.' I think the people of the west, notwithstanding that there might be an additional subsidy would still be in favour of local autonomy. They all desire to manage their own local affairs, and even an additional subsidy would not long quiet them. Now the reasons given for refusing provincial autonomy by the Minister of the Interior I do not think were sufficient in themselves, certainly they were not satisfactory to the government of the North-west Territories. Mr. Haultain had been led to believe that this government would take into immediate consideration the question of granting provincial autonomy. The Minister of the Interior, in writing to him. said that no doubt it would not come as a surprise to Mr. Haultain that the government at the present time had decided not to grant autonomy ; but Mr. Haultain was surprised. These are the words used by the Minister of the Interior when he refused provincial autonomy to Mr. Haultain :
It is the view of the government that it will not be wise at the pr ;sent time to pass legislation forming the North-west Territories into a province or provinces. Some of the reasons loading to this view may be found in the fact that the population of the territories is yet sparse.
I think that is an argument that will not hold water very long. As has been pointed out by some hon. members, the population is not as sparse as it was when Manitoba was created a province.
That the rapid increase in population now taking place will in a short time alter the conditions to be dealt with very materially; and that there is a considerable divergence of opinion respecting rhe question whether there should be one province only or more than one province.
I think that objection in itself is very weak, it is, as has been said, one that will always exist. There will always be a difference of opinion on that subject. There is one thing I can tell the hon. member for East Assiniboia, and that is, if only one province !s granted, a great many of his own constituents will favour annexation to Manitoba. But most people. I think, in the territories are favourable to two provinces. However, that is a question of detail, as Mr. Haultain said, that could be left in abeyance.
Respecting the present financial requirements, the question of an increase in your subsidy is now receiving consideration, but the result cannot, as you are aware, he communicated until the estimates are brought before parliament. This I have every reason to hope will take place in a very short time.
Well, the estimates have been placed before parliament and no increase in the subsidy has been thus far announced, though the hon. minister may later on in his supplementary estimates, and I trust he may,

bring down an increase in the subsidy. There is a reply made by Mr. Haultain which shows that he was surprised at this declaration by the hon. Minister of the Interior. He quotes a portion of the minister's letter addressed to him some time previously, in which it was stated :
Without at the present moment committing mjBeilf to any positive statement I am prepared to say that the time has arrived when1 the question of organizing the territories on tile provincial basis ought to be the subject of tull consideration. It would appear to me that the belter way of bringing the matter to a more definite position would be to arrange for a conference upon the subject, between the representatives of your government and a committee of council representiug the federal government.
From that declaration on the part of the hon. Minister of the Interior, Mr. Haultain was led to believe that tliis conference which was suggested by the hon. gentleman would result in granting immediate provincial autonomy to the North-west Territories, and be thus expresses himself in his reply to the hon. minister :
These opinions and the long delay that followed, in order to choose a convenient time for that 'mature and careful consideration of the various and important subjects which will require to he debated and settled in connection with the establishing of the territories as a province or upon a provincial basis,' led us to suppose that when the subject was finally taken up it would he taken up with a view to immediate settlement.
These were the views expressed by Mr. Haultain, and I think the reasons assigned by the hon. Minister of the Interior for not acceding to their demands, are poor reasons, and surely there must lie something else behind these which, if the hon. gentleman would he candid enough to admit it, have influenced his position in refusing the territories autonomy at the present time.


The MINISTER OP THE INTERIOR:: Mr. Chairman, the discussion which has taken place on both sides of the House lias,
T think, been a desirable discussion because of the fact that it lias placed before the country and before hon. members from the eastern part of tlie country-I am sorry that there are not more of them here this evening-a very fair and moderate statement of the position of affairs. I can find no fault with my hon. friends from the North-west Territories for the manner in which they have stated their position, although lion, members in the committee will see that they, themselves, are not agreed in regard to what ought to be done. This is no particular discredit to any of the members who have expressed their opinions, because the circumstances are of such a character that there is plenty of room for a difference of opinion. It would he a very strange thing if, amongst men who have formed tlieir opinions themselves, there should not be differences of opinion in regard to a matter of such importance,
where all the circumstances are of such an unusual character. It does not very often happen that any legislative assembly lias to deal with a question involving tlie eon-( stitutional status of a territory such as that which we are now discussing. Tlie com-* mittee, perhaps, hardly realizes tlie fact that we are discussing tlie questions of tlie financial and constitutional status of a territory which has almrst ns much fertile! land as the continent of Europe, and wliicl>
bids fair, under existing -circumstances, to be an enormously important factor in the; development of the business, not only of Canada, but of the north American continent before very many years pass away. When I speak of the extent of that territory,
I am not speaking of tlie extent of its superficial area, but of the number of acres which are actually fertile and are capable of producing in such a way that they are fairly and reasonably equipped for settlement in the ordinary sense of the word. I do not know that it is necessary for me to go into a very lengthy or detailed discussion of the matter, but, I would say to the committee, that I think I am justified in taking the position that tlie North-west Territories have not been badly treated during the last five! years. Immediately upon assuming office,
I was met by the members of the territorial government, and they made a proposal tq me in regard to wliat they thought they ought to have in the way of subsidy for tlie next four years. If I remember rightly, this took place in the fall of 1896, before I was sworn in, and before I liad actually assumed the performance of my duties in this place. I indicated to tlie members of the government what I thought, under the circumstances, I could recommend, and I was led by these gentlemen to believe that the amount which I was disposed to recommend would be satisfactory for tlie next three or four years. Tlie amount which I recommended was added to the subsidy of tlie North-west Territories at the next session of parliament, and I think, under the then existing circumstances, I had tlie right to believe that in the opinion of the members of the executive at the time of tlie conference that for three or four years the amount thus added would prove a satis-' factory addition to the subsidy. Then circumstances changed, and demands were made upon the government here for increases and additions to the subsidy of the North-west Territories, to some extent, inconsistently with the understanding which was reached at that time, although I am quite prepared to admit there was nothing of a binding character, but at the same time, it was of such a character that I had reasonable grounds for believing that they had succeeded in getting the government to deal satisfactorily with the position as it then existed. Population began to flow into the territories, and as an hon. member from the North-west has properly and pertinently explained to the committee, the expenditure
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necessary on the part of the territories lias been to a very considerable extent affected and affected unfavourably in the sense that the expenditure has been increased to a very considerable extent owing to the fact that there has lately been a series of wet seasons which have resulted in making a' very much larger demand on the resources of the territorial government for necessary public works and for the construction of roads and bridges. That increase, having been made, was continued. A still further increase was made a couple of years ago, and when last year the members of the territorial government waited upon us and explained that, owing to the floods which had taken place in the northern part of. the territories. many of their bridges had been washed away and that renewals were an urgent necessity, a very large additional amount was voted for the purpose of assisting them in making these renewals.


Robert Laird Borden: May I ask the lion. Minister of the Interior a question ? Was the amount of the subsidy based in any way upon estimated population or on what was it based ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, it was arbitrarily fixed. Every year the premier of the North-west Territories sends down a detailed estimate. When I say it is detailed, I should explain that it is not detailed, as it is not a detailed estimate In the way in which our estimates are detailed, but an estimate generally stating) what is required for each service, and giving a certain amount of detail in connection with the moneys that are asked for. As I said, last year or the year before, $100,000 was voted for the purpose of enabling the territorial government to renew bridges and public works which had been destroyed by the floods which had taken place the previous year. On the whole, therefore, I think we have been, in a fair and reasonable way, endeavouring to meet the wishes of our friends in the North-west Territories, and therefore, I do not think that the members of the territorial government feel that we have treated them illiberally, or that we have been disposed to turn a deaf ear to their representations. I may add that in the first year after the government took office, we extended to the North-west Territories what they had been vainly seeking for years before, a system of responsible government. But I remember very distinctly that the day I brought that Bill into the House, the late Mr. Davin stood up and expressed agreeable surprise at the Bill being brought in, declaring that he had been trying to get the Conservative government to introduce a similar Bill for the previous ten vears.
Great progress has been made in the North-west. We have in the last five years established in that country a system of responsible) government, we have increased their subsidy largely and we have reasonably and fairly endeavoured to meet them


Clifford Sifton: in their demands of a financial character. I am free to say that in the last year or two circumstances have changed rapidly, and the march of events has been quicker than in former years. That is due to the rapid increase of the population and the prospect of a still more rapid increase in the future. I do not suppose that my hon. friends would think that the situation were so urgent if it were not for the fact that the population has increased with great rapidity. I believe the subject is one that requires the greatest of consideration, and I fully agree with the members from the territories who say that it would be a national disaster if we neglected to provide for the public service of the territories, so that the people would go in there and become dissatisfied, and that the tide of population which is flowing in that direction should be turned back as it was turned back some fifteen or twenty years ago.
But I venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that there is no such grievance existing in the North-west Territories at the present time as, within the next year at least, renders it in the smallest degree probable that any such disaster would take place for the reason indicated. I think during the next year the territorial government will be somewhat strained in their efforts to meet their obligations if some increased assistance is not given. I indicated in m.v letter to Mr. Haul-tain that the subject of an increased subsidy was under the consideration of the government. If I recollect aright the main estimates had been brought down on the Table of the House at that time. I may say for the satisfaction of my hon. friends on the other side, that the estimates to which I referred were the supplementary estimates which have not yet been laid upon the Table.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In regard to what will be done or what can be done, I shall not be able to say anything until the' supplementary estimates appear, and they will speak for themselves. 4.3 to the criticism which has been made on the action of the government with respect of the application for provincial autonomy-


Robert Laird Borden: Before the hon. gentleman leaves that point, might I ask him :	Has the government of the Northwest Territories any independent source of revenue apart from that which it derives from this grant ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR Nothing substantial. The local revenues of the North-west Territories are of a very-trivial description. I think they amount to not more than $30,000.


Thomas Walter Scott: Last year they amounted to $80,000, and possibly this year they will

amount to $100,000, derived from the local land tax.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Respecting what has been said in connection with the conduct of the government upon the application of the territorial government for provincial autonomy, let me say I do not think that in respect to that application, that as yet at least there is any serious, reasonable grievance existing on the part of our territorial friends. The settlement of the constitutional and financial status of that vast territory is surely worth a little consideration. The time to consider the question, even in the opinion of the most urgent friends of provincial autonomy, did not arrive until a year ago. It was not suggested until about a year ago that the subject should be seriously considered, and if hon. gentlemen will remember how long it takes to settle questions of this kind and to settle them satisfactorily, I think they will admit that rash haste with regard to a question of such vast importance-a question which must be satisfactorily settled if settled at allrash haste would not at all be conducive to a settlement which would be satisfactory in the long run to the people of the territories. I would not feel that I was taking an unreasonable position before this House if I said : That if the people of the Northwest Territories get a reasonable and satisfactory settlement, a settlement that the people of Canada and the people of the territories particularly will regard as a good settlement; a fair and reasonable settlement promising permanency ; promising lack of agitation, and difficulties, and applications for re-opening of the case in future years-if they get such a settlement within three or four years I should feel very well satisfied indeed, and I should feel that we have accomplished that result in a comparatively short time. In saying that, I am not at this moment indicating any view I have just now as to when this question will be finally and definitely settled.
I wish to say in answer to my hon. friend for Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) whose face I see wearing a smile of a somewhat critical character-I wish to say a few words in regard to what he evidently has in his mind. He evidently has in his mind the idea that we are deterred from dealing with the constitutional question relating to the North-west Territories by the possible difficulty of the separate school question being raised in connection with that constitutional settlement. I think some of his friends are under the impression that the reason why we have not dealt with it at this session of parliament is, that there is some political game to be played, and that the party with which the government is identified hopes to gain something politically by reason of the delay. I am bound to say Mr. Chairman, so far as I am concerned and so far as I know, there is no
political advantage to be gained by either party in connection with the settlement of this question. I know of no political game that can be played, and so far as the separate schools are concerned my own view is that the school question is settled so far as the North-west Territories is concerned. I understand that the settlement at which they have arrived-and I am very happy to be able to express that opinion- is a satisfactory settlement, and that the Roman Catholic people on the one hand and the Protestant people on the other, feel that they have a satisfactory compromise and that there is no necessity for difficulty or agitation upon the question.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Therefore, I think we may possibly be able to look forward to a settlement of this constitutional question, at least when it is proposed by the government to this parliament, being carried out without any acrimonious discussion upon a question of that kind which might be a most difficult and unpleasant one to have to decide, if there were any contention upon it.
I gave certain reasons in the brief letter which I wrote to Mr. Haultain as to why the government did not feel disposed to deal with this question at the present time. Now, I have lived a great many years in the western portion of Canada and I think I have some little understanding of our people there. I sympathize with them, but I know that when they get an idea about a thing to be done they generally have an idea that it should be done right off. They are not disposed to allow the march of events to proceed very long without having a final settlement of what they claim ought to be settled. They are not generally desirous to listen to counsel which goes in the direction of delay. My hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) has possibly been the clearest exponent of that principle which is generally followed by western people, and he puts it very well. He says :	We
have asked you for certain things and if you are not prepared to do just exactly what we say, why pay the shot and pay as much as we ask. My hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) forgets that he takes for granted the whole of the discussion and all the points involved in the discussion because he says :	We are entitled to what we ask
in the first place, and if you do not give us what we ask we are entitled to fix the amount you will give us. I think the House of Commons will hardly admit that that is the case, because we shall have to take the position, however much we sympathize with our friends in the North-west Territories, that there are two parties to the question of their financial status, and two parties to the question how much they ought to have. These questions cannot be settled by a logical proposition such as

my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) puts with such clearness. A good deal of thoughtful consideration will have to be given to the details.
I want to say a word on two phases of the question-what the position of the territories is, and whether it is desirable for them to have provincial autonomy at the present time. 1 am bound to say that 1 think the view expressed so strongly by certain gentlemen representing the territories is not justified by the facts, although there is considerable difference of opinion on the subject. They express the opinion that the financial difficulties of the territories would entirely disappear if they had provincial autonomy. Now, it has been pointed out-and it might be pointed out more in detail if it were necessary-that there are services performed by the government of Canada in the North-west Territories at the present time which are of an exceptional character, because of the exceptional position of that country. We maintain a large police force there; blit let not our friends think that that police force is maintained solely for what may be called Dominion purposes. Not at all. We require to maintain a force of some kind for Dominion purposes; but at present we maintain it not only for Dominion purposes, not only because it is desirable to have a military force in so large a territory, and where in former years at least there were a considerable number of Indians who were somewhat hostile in their tendency, but at the present time we maintain a large number of those policemen scattered about the country, singly or in groups of two or three, for the purpose of performing the duties of local constables; and if we undertook to remove one of those constables from the neighbourhood where he is placed, such a storm would arise os no minister would care to face. There is a stronger demand for local police in the North-west Territories than in any other part of Canada. I will not be so uncharitable as to say that it is so strong simply because the Federal government has to pay the shot; but the demand is there, and there is some reason for it, because at the present time and for some years to come the population will be so sparse that they will not be able to form themselves into local communities and by small local taxation give themselves the police protection which is provided in other parts of Canada. When the population of the North-west Territories increases to five of six hundred thousand, circumstances will be different. The people will be closer together, municipalities will be formed, we shall be able to collect our police force into military companies for military purposes, and the people will look after their own police protection. But that time has not *come yet, and that is one of the things that are to be considered in connection with this question. The territorial government would not be prepared to undertake any such ex-Hor,. Mr. SIFTON
penditure for police purposes, and if we withdrew that police force from local service, they would have to come back to the Dominion government and ask us again to undertake that kind of work.
There . are other circumstances which I think might well lead the House to take a year or two to consider the questions which have to be settled. We have in the Northwest Territories a vast extent of country, and if you will take the trouble to note the discussions which have taken place, you will find that the people who live in the district of West Assiniboia are almost unanimously in favour of immediate provincial autonomy and of the territories being constituted into one province, whereas in the neighbourhood of Indian Head, where the meeting was held to which my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) refers, there is not that same amount of unanimity of opinion. My hon. friend said he was at a public meeting, where 1,000 people were present, and where there was a very unanimous expression of opinion ; and, if I understood him rightly, he said that he judged of the view of the meeting by the applause given to the speakers. I was not at the meeting, but I read a very full account of it made by a shortland reporter, to the effect, which I think was not disputed, that the meeting was a large and very intelligent one, that they gave.a reasonable and courteous reception and applause to the speakers on both sides, and assumed the attitude of intelligent men who had come to listen and consider the arguments that would be presented to them; and it can hardly be said that the people at that meeting, which assembled to hear Mr. Haultain on one side and Mi*. Roblin on the other side of the question, whether the territories should be formed into one province, or that portion of the territories should be united with the province of Manitoba, fully made up their minds on the question that evening. There is still some difference of opinion among the people. There is some sentiment in favour of that district being united to the province of Manitoba; but the prevailing sentiment is that it should remain a part of the Northwest Territories. If you go to the district of Saskatchewan, you will find an entirely different sentiment prevailing among the people there. They are not in favour of the territories being formed into one province, and they are not in a hurry for provincial autonomy; but when it comes they do not want their district to be united with the territory to the south. At the present time you have a vast territory there containing about 200,000 people. The census showed about 150,000 in the organized territories; there are perhaps 10,000 or 12,000 in the country to the north; and with the increment caused by the immigration of last year, there hre at the present time approximately about 200,000 people. The analogy as to the number of people who were in Manitoba when it became a member

of the confederation, or as to the number in British Columbia, does not hold at all, because those provinces were brought into confederation by way of a necessity which existed at that time. It was not in the deliberate exercise of the discretion of the parliament of Canada, thinking fhalt it would be an ideal or desirable state of affairs to have 17,000 people constituted into a province, that the province of Manitoba was formed. It was formed because the necessity arose. There were people there who demanded local powers, and the peaceful settlement of the country could not have been effected, and that territory could not have been brought under the rule of the Dominion of Canada, without those terms being granted at that time. Hon. gentlemen will remember that there was a rebellion, and it is possible that the trouble arose only on account of the- belief that was created by interested persons that the government here did not intend to give them provincial autonomy or to treat them fairly. They had to be treated in that way, because they were insisting that the existing status should be recognized, and it was recognized as a matter of necessity. British Columbia came in as a sovereign colony under a bargain made with the people of Canada, and the people of Canada had no choice in that respect. But -that is no reason for saying that when you get 17,000 people in a territory in any part of the Dominion of Canada, you are to form them into a province. That is not justified by common sense or by the precedents cited in favour of it. I think what parliament will be disposed to do will be to treat this question on a fair and liberal basis ; but they will desire, when they come to deal with it, to have before them sufficient data to enable them to feel that they are working out a settlement which has in it -the element of permanency. And 1 think parliament would be rather prepared for two or three or four years to vote sums of money, which might be reasonably arrived at as approximately what the territories actually require for their immediate necessities, and let us get more information with regard to what the position will be and what the necessary requirements of the territories will be, so that when we do arrive at a settlement, it shall have some of the elements of finality. At this late hour, I shall not undertake .to discuss the various details which will have to be considered in the formation of a province in the North-west. If lion, gentlemen will look through the Bill presented for our consideration by our friends from the territories, they will see at once that there are items in it quite sufficient to make any government take a little time for their consideration. We have in this Bill a provision that all mines, minerals, timber and royalties, belonging to the Crown, situated or arisiug in the territories, and all sums due and payable on the 1st of January, 1903, 9S
for such mines, minerals, timber and royalties shall belong to the province. In addition to other matters relating to the finances, which were supposed to be dealt with somewhat on the line, that has been taken in the other provinces, and as to which possibly no serious objection would be taken, there is a provision that the province shall be entitled to receive, by halfyearly payments in advance from the government of Canada, interest at 5 per cent per annum on the sum of one dollar per acre for every acre of land granted by the Dominion otherwise than as homesteads or pre-emption. I see some hon. members smiling, and I think I have convinced the committee that there is sufficient material in that Bill for a year's consideration. When I said that it was desirable that we should take a little time to consider, I do not think I was asking anything unreasonable. I did not discuss with premier Haultain the details of the Bill. I desire to say, in all frankness, to the committee, that-I did not think it desirable to discuss the details. I do not think it desirable, in a matter of such vast importanece to the people of Canada generally and of the territories in particular, to unnecessarily rush the government of Canada into a record on these questions. They are questions upon which a good deal of light may be thrown by further discussion. The circumstances during the last year were not propitious to a complete discussion of the question with the members of the North-west government, afld perhaps that is one of the most important features which I ought to bring before the House.


Andrew B. Ingram: Did the delegates of the North-west Territories come down over a year ago to discuss the question with the hon. gentleman ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, but it is pretty hard to make a categorical statement about what the members of the territorial government did come down to discuss. The hon. gentleman will appreciate that difficulty. I suppose that there has been no time when I have met the members of the North-west government-and I have met them every year since I have been Minister of the Interior-that I have not discussed with them, in a casual manner, the question of provincial autonomy.


Andrew B. Ingram: I understood Premier Haultain and Mr. Ross were here a year ago and discussed this very question with the hon. gentleman.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The point which I want to convey to my hon. friend is this, that during the last four or five years, on every occasion when I had the pleasure of meeting the members of the territorial government, there has perhaps not been a meeting at which, in a casual way, the question of the time when, and the circumstances under which, pro-



vincial autonomy would be given the territories, has not been more or less discussed. But as to any meeting for the purpose of taking up the question of provincial autonomy, in the sense of a serious discussion of the terms upon which we would contemplate forming a province of the territories, there has only been one discussion in that sense of the word, and that Is the discussion which took place during last year, after Mr. Ross went out of the government. There was a preliminary talk about a year and a half ago, and of course some correspondence followed, and it was arranged that there should be a discussion when we would atempt to come down to details. And let me say that until the discussion of this last year, 1901, it was not understood, either by myself or the members of the territorial government, that we were at close quarters upon this question. We were simply [DOT]discussing it as a thing which would come in the future, but no attempt was made to fix a time for discussion when any settlement would be arrived at. Bast year it was arranged that a discussion should take place, and our friends of the territorial government did urge that it should take place earlier. But the Minister of Finance was obliged to go to England immediately after the session, and a discussion in his absence would of course have been impossible, he being one of the members of the government whose presence would be absolutely necessary in addition to the Prime Minister and myself. So that until the Minister of Finance returned from England, it was impossible altogether to arrive at any arrangement as to when the conference should take place. When the members of the gOA'ern-ment who were away in England did come back, the happy event of the visit of the Prince of Wales occurred. That engaged the attention of everybody some little time, and the result was that it was impossible to give any time for the discussion of this question until after that event took place. Two members of the territorial government came down just about the time His Highness was leaving. We proceeded to get together to discuss the question on two .or three occasions, and go into the details as fully as possible. From time to time members of the government gave the various phases of the questioh consideration, and the conclusion I arrived at was that notwithstanding a case, strong in some respects, was made out by our friends in the territories, it was better that the matter should be laid over for the present, and 1 am bound to say that the more I have thought of the matter since that decision was arrived at, the more strongly I am convinced that it was a wise one. I am not desirous of binding myself this evening to any expression of opinion, as very rapid changes are likely to take place in the position of the territories in the next year or two, and it would be most unwise for us now to undertake to settle a question of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.
this character, the settlement of which must largely depend on the amount of population in the territories. Why, one of the first things we would have to deal with would be a per capita allowance according to the population, upon the assumption that the cost of government is to be based to some extent on the number of the population. We were asked to fix a per capita allowance based on a population of 250,000; but if our anticipations turn out to be at all correct, it will increase very rapidly, and our. estimate of the number of people upon which the per capita allowance should be based might prove to be wholly inadequate and erroneous within two or three years.
The suggestion was made that we should take frequent censuses. But, there are unusual features about that ; and, moreover, we would have to face another difficulty, as to what the limit would be upon which the per capita allowance would be granted, because there is a limit in the cases of the other provinces. So, the House can see at a glance, that if you take this enormous territory which is six or seven hundred miles long and runs from the international boundary to north of Prince Albert-speaking of the territory habitable in the sense of being useful for agricultural settlement, and consider that people are likely to go in it at the rate of 50,000 a year and that quite probably those places where settlement is now the thickest will be the thinnest in that respect in a few years, for unquestionably, settlement will go in places where it has not been hitherto-taking these things into consideration the House will understand that rapid and great changes will take place in the territories within a few years, and it would hardly be the part of wise statesmanship to make arrangements, that would so completely lack the element of permanency. The House will understand that there would be no advantage in giving provincial autonomy to these people and having them come down here every year for better terms. Every province has had to come to the Federal government for better terms. X was a boy in Manitoba when the representatives of that province had to come every year for better terms. Every year they made their pilgrimage to Ottawa, for this purpose. This was because the elements of permanency and finality did not exist in the terms between Manitoba and the Dominion. The arrangements were made at a time when population was so small and the circumstances were of such a character that nobody could understand what the financial arrangement of the future needed to be. There was constant agitation goiug on in the province as to what better terms were acceptable. And there was constant difficulty over these questions between the provincial and Dominion governments. We should bring upon ourselves exactly the same condition of affairs in the North-west Territories. If any settlement were made which it would be possible to get this House

to ratify, within twelve months you would have the territorial government asking for better terms and for a re-opening of the financial situation. From my experience in the west, I venture to say that that is what *would happen. I feel confident that if some hon. gentlemen who have agitated for autonomy, will quietly think of the matter, they will agree with me that this would probably be the result. So, we should not be in a better position if they were given autonomy. AVe have already given them responsible government. To all intents and purposes they have the advantages of provincial life, except that they do not look after the administration of justice, registry office or the police force. This is a great financial relief to them. One or two things like the registry office we would be prepared to hand over to them if they desire.


Robert Laird Borden: AVould my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Sifton) be good enough to inform the House what the exact status would be if the provincial autonomy were granted. I am not as familiar with the legislation as the hon. gentleman.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: They have responsible government, but the jurisdiction of the government is defined specifically by the Act of this government. There are, as I have said, certain departments in which they have no jurisdiction, one being the police, another the administration of justice and another the registry office. This last is a small matter, as I say, which might be turned over without discussion. AVe get a little surplus revenue out of the registry offices, but it might readily be admitted that they might have it. These are the three principal subjects with regard to which they have no jurisdiction, which occurred to me at the present moment. My hon. friend will see, without provincial status, they have no power to incur debt, and I am not sure that that is an unmixed evil. Bet the House consider that a moment


Thomas Walter Scott: Is there really any difference with regard to the police in the state of the territory and the -state of the provinces ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Speaking from recollection, I think there are only two clauses in the constitution under which the police jurisdiction of the provinces arises. The province has control over municipal institutions, which has been held in some cases, I think, to give a certain amount of police power. In addition, the province has jjower over the administration of justice. That is in reality the clause in the constitution which gives the provinces the power to do and to control police work. The North-west Territories have not the power under the present condition of things, that power being held by the government here.
98*


Robert Laird Borden: This government retains control of mines and land aud minerals ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Of all the Crown lands.


Robert Laird Borden: In that respect the position differs from that of a province.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: From the position of the original provinces. The only two portions of Canada where the Crown lands belong to the Dominion are the province of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, including, of course, the Yukbn. The control of the administration of justice and police by the Dominion govern-mens brings upon this government very great expense, caused very largely by the present peculiar circumstances of the case. The proportionate expense would be nothing like the same if there was a large population in the territories. The position would be very substantially changed if there was a reasonably large population in that district. On the question of the power to incur indebtedness, I speak with some deference. I do not wish to express the idea that the people of the North-west Territories are not as competent to conduct their own affairs as the people of any other portion of Canada, for I think they are. But it must not be forgotten by a body like the House of Commons who are responsible for what may happen in the future, that you have there a very sparse population of about two hundred thousand people situated in a vast and very rich territory. If they had the power to mortgage that territory for all time to come, which they would have if they were granted provincial powers, it might be mortgaged for very unwise and very unnecessary purposese. In saying this, I wish to guard against the imputation of saying that the people of the North-west Territories are not as capable of taking care of themselves and doing their own business as any others. But I say it is a fair subject for consideration for this parliament whether the time has come when power should be given to the people of the Northwest Territories to incur indebtedness.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. minister has stated that if the government entered into any financial arrangement with the Northwest Territories to form it into a province, the financial arrangement that the government would make would not last long, that the new province would be here in a short time, asking for better financial arrangements. Here is what they say, if the hon. gentleman will allow me :
A subsidy of $50,000 and 80 cents per bead on the estimated population of 250,000 is asked for at the outset, with an increase at the same rate until paid on a population of 1,396,0'Jl, which is what the province of Ontario is paid on.

Now, coupling that agreement to be entered, into with the statement made by the hon. gentleman that the increase of population will be so vast that he thinks it is necessary, to delay this whole matter, I want to point! out that when the territories start in with1 $50,000 at the outset, and 80 cents per head for every additional person coming in, the subsidy will increase very fast until they come to the limit of the sum paid to the province of Ontario.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think my hon. friend will not find that his inference is justified by the facts, if he infers that the result of the increase in population would enable the people of the North-i west Territories adequately to discharge, their financial responsibility by an allowance for government fixed simply upon the number of population arrived at in the way suggested by Mr. Haultain. Mr. Haul-' tain's confidence in the ability of the Northwest Territories to discharge their financial obligations is, I think, derived much more largely from certain other clauses of hisi Bill, the clause, for instance, which suggests, that they should have control of all the mines, timber and royalties thereon, and! the clause which suggests that $1 an acre should be given them for all the land grants in the North-west Territories. I think if those grants were provided for they would be' able to get along very well.


Andrew B. Ingram: Supposing the hon. gentleman entered into an arrangement to grant every prayer they asked, does he intimate that they would not be satisfied with that arrangement, and that they would be back in a short time for additional money ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No, the hon. gentleman misunderstood me.
I did not say that if they got everything they asked they would not be satisfied, I had no idea of suggesting that. On the contrary, I think if parliament were prepared to give them all they asked in that Bill, they would be willing to stay away for quite a while. I think if they got an allowance of a trifle over a million dollars a year it would be a very adequate allowance.


Andrew B. Ingram: I will put it in another way. Supposing this government and the North-west authorities entered into an agreement, agreed upon by both parties, does the hon. gentleman mean to say that that agreement would be broken within a short period, and that they would be back here for an additional amount ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The experience of the government is that in governmental matters you cannot make a bargain, agreed to by both parties, that will bind people not to come back again if it does not meet the necessities of the case. If it does not enable them to discharge their financial responsibility, then they will come 1


Andrew B. Ingram: back. It does not make any difference whether you make a bargain with them or not, they will come back any way.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman say$ that if they did enter into an agreement with them they would come back in a short time.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The question whether they would come back for further assistance depends upon whether you make a permanent arrangement which will enable them properly to discharge the functions they have to discharge. My hon. friend will see that my argument has been to show that circumstances are changing so fast that the wisdom of man cannot devise any arrangement, such as this parliament would sanction, which at the present time would enable them to discharge the financial requirements of their position.


Andrew B. Ingram: The longer you wait the more difficulties there will be, I suppose.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Not at all. I think for the next few years circumstances will change very rapidly in the North-west Territories, and I think that! when they acquire a population of 600,000 or 700,00.0, which may not be very far away, then we shall have arrived at a position of affairs in which parliament can fairly understand what is ahead of the territories, and can fairly address themselves to the question of permanently settling the financial status of those territories.


Robert Laird Borden: The Minister of the Interior has referred to the very explicit statement or demand by my hon., friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver), with regard to the amount of subsidy. I will mention to him, however, that the views of my hon. friend from Alberta with regard to the granting of provincial autonomy to these territories, do not seem to be quite so clear ; because, so far as I was able to understand that hon. gentleman, he said that if we passed a Bill for that purpose such as exactly suited him, it would be entirely satisfactory to him. That is about as near as he could get the hon. gentleman to commit himself.


Frank Oliver: Was not that clear enough?


Robert Laird Borden: I admire my hon. friend's caution. Now with regard tq the details of the Bill, with which I am not at all familiar, as I have not had an opportunity of seeing it-I do not think those details have much to do with the question. It is a question which will have to be dealt with by this government, it is a question of course, which should be dealt with in a manner satisfactory to the territories for the time being. But because the government of the territories submits a Bill which this government does not regard as satisfactory, that of itself is hardly a sufficient reason for putting off a settlement of this question

for four or five years. I would like to say to the Minister of the Interior, that some of the reasons which he has advanced for not dealing with this question at the present time seem to he reasons for never dealing with it. He speaks of the question of population. Now we do not apprehend that population in the North-west Territories is going to stand still after the expiration of four or five years. It will probably continue to increase, at least we hope it will, at the rate of 60,000, 70,000 or 80,000 every year, and that for many years to come. My hon. friend suggests that the question should be put off four or five years, or until the population attains 600,000 or 700,000 people. Well, is there any particular reason why the people of the Northwest Territories, when they have attained the number of 200,000 or 300,000, should not be entrusted with the government of their own territory ? My hon. friend refers to the fact that they have a very rich country, a country of great resources. Is it not true that we may place the same confidence in the people of that country as we place in the people of other communities in Canada ? Is there any special reason to suppose they will unduly mortgage their future? There is not a province in Canada that is not capable at this very moment of abusing its borowing powers so as to make itself hopelessly bankrupt, not one ; and why should it be supposed that these people are any more likely to abuse their borrowing powers than the people of Ontario, Quebec, or the maritime provinces ? I am glad to note that my hon. friend regards the school question in that country as satisfactorily settled, and I trust that it is so. With regard to his view that if terms were made with that territory now these gentlemen would come again year by year, I suppose that is more an argument of convenience, from the standpoint of the government, than otherwise. It does not seem to possess much value, even from that standpoint, because the people of the North-west Territories are coming every year, as it is now, and if they should continue to come it will occasion no greater inconvenience to the government than it has in years past.
I do not see that the financial question, or the question of making an arrangement on a per capita basis, if it is an adequate reason now, will not be an adequate reason in the future for preventing these territories from having self-government. My hon. friend says that it is difficult to arrange it upon a per capita basis and that even the proposal which has been suggested of holding a census at frequent intervals is not sufficient. How will my hon. friend deal with it at the expiration of four or five years ? Will not exactly the same difficulty present itself then to the government that presents itself now ? We do not suppose that the population of the territories will not continue to increase by leaps and bounds after the next four or five years,
and will there not, therefore, always be the same difficulty that exists now ? My hon. friend did not make himself very clear to me on that point, because I do not see, if there is a certain difficulty now existing which the government has to face, that it will not present itself in the future if the settlement is delayed for four or five years. There is, it seems to me, a strong reason for lending an ear to what these people demand in this respect, and it is that the people of the North-west Territories will be more adequately represented in respect to local 'matters if they possess provincial autonomy than they are at present. Certain branches of their government are dealt with here as my hon. friend has stated in his speech. If provincial autonomy were granted to them, if they had the right of provincial self-government, then, such matters would be dealt with in their own legislature by gentlemen ; who are more familiar with the wants and necessities of that country than the majority of the members of this committee. I feel, here, that the great majority of the members of this House are not adequate-if I may be pardoned for the use of the word-to the discussion of these subjects because they do not understand the country, because they do not understand the people, or their wants, or necessities as well as the people who live in that country, or as well as hon. members from that country. In that respect it would be a very important advance in the government of that country if these local matters, which are ordinarily assigned to provincial governments, should be dealt with by the people of the North-west Territories themselves, through their representatives in their own provincial assemblies. I do not pretend to have given this subject sufficient consideration to make my remarks of any great value. What I have said is merely my impression gathered from what has been placed before the committee to-night so fully and ably by my hon. friends on both sides of the House from the North-west Territories, and from statements which have been made by the hon. Minister of the Interior ; but, having regard to the information which I have derived from these hon. gentlemen, it does seem to me that the hon. Minister of the Interior is inclined to unduly postpone the granting of provincial rights to the people of the North-west Territories in stating that it is not a matter which can be properly or reasonably considered until the expiration of four or five years from the present time.


Nathaniel Boyd: Mr. Chairman, I rise to correct a wrong impression which the hon. Minister of the Interior derived from my remark about the Indian Head meeting. What I wished to convey to the committee was, while the meeting was divided as to whether the boundaries of Manitoba should be extended into the territories, or whether they should have provincial government in

the territories as they are now known, if I could gather anything from the meeting at all, it was that there was the greatest possible unanimity that some form of local government should prevail.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is time for a change.


Nathaniel Boyd: Apparently that is the way they viewed it. I think we must admit that it is an unfortunate thing, after the experience which the hon. gentleman, now the head of his department, has had in Manitoba, if an arrangement cannot be arrived at which will be satisfactory. There might have been some excuse in the years gone 'by with the government that preceded the present government in total ignorance of Manitoba at that time, but I think that it is unfortunate, to say the least, that at this time and with the experience that these men have had of the west, we are not able to agree on some form of government here. I am pleased that this debate has brought out something that it is quite evident was not known at the time of the Indian Head meeting. I heard many of the people say after the meeting that they were pleased to have Mr. Haultain placed in such a position that they could understand where he was. It is evident that Mr. Haultain has not been able to ascertain exactly where the hon. Minister of the Interior stood. However, I think that this debate has brought forth very clearly the fact that he, for the present, at least, is not prepared to say that they should have provincial government in the west for the next four or five years. It is quite clear that has been brought forth and also it has been brought out that the form of school legislation that they now have would have been satisfactory to him. I, for my part, trust that it may be and whatever will satisfy them will satisfy me. We have also had brought forth in the debate the fact that the hon. member for East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) is not in favour of a provincial government.


James Moffat Douglas: You are mistaken.


Nathaniel Boyd: Not at the present time. The hon. gentleman wants four or five years delay.


James Moffat Douglas: I did not define.


Nathaniel Boyd: He is not very definite. We know where he stands. We know where the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) stands, but we are not so fortunate as to the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver). He will probably tell his constituents all about it. I am quite free to admit that if the government are not going to give the people of the North-west this form of government I will support a proposal to increase the amount of the subsidy to them. While I do not suppose it would affect the action of the present government, I do not. mind telling hon. gentlemen what my position is in regard to the form of Mr. BOYD.
government in that country. I believe we should have two provinces in that country. The experience which we have had in the country from which the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) and the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) come, I think, shows us that a multiplicity of governments is not the wisest or the best thing to have. But, in the west, I do not think it would be wise to have three or four small governments. Nor do I believe that the people of that country, or the members of this House will be satisfied if you say to them :	We propose to form one
government in the North-west Territories and to constitute a province comprising 1,250,000 square miles alongside of another province with 250,000 square miles. I do not think that the people of the western country will be satisfied with that; at least, I do not believe the people of Canada will approve of it, nor do I think the people of Canada will look upon it as a fair distribution of the territory, but I do think that if it is fairly discussed and laid before the people of Canada, they will agree that there is room for two large and prosperous provinces in that country. That will be extending the boundaries of Manitoba a reasonable distance, and that each of them shall be in that way sufficiently large. I do not hesitate to .say that this is my view, and the government is welcome to the benefit of it; not that I expect they will give attention to any opinion that I may express on the subject.


Thomas Walter Scott: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyd) has endeavoured to explain the reference he made to the feeling expressed at the Indian Head meeting. I understood him to say that the people were divided there on the question as between one or two provinces.


Nathaniel Boyd: Yes.


Thomas Walter Scott: The question as between one or two provinces in the North-west Territories on which the people are divided, is as between two provinces or one province to be made up out of the present organized territories. The Indian Head meeting was called to hear a discussion between the premier of the territories and the premier of Manitoba on the question as to whether the North-weset Territories should be formed into a province, or whether part of the North-west Territories should be placed in the province of Manitoba, which is an entirely different question. My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior stated that there were various opinions amongst the people of the territories, and that in certain parts of the territories there was a feeling in favour of a portion being placed in the province of Manitoba. I would bring to the attention of the House that within the last few days this matter was voted upon in the legislative assembly at Regina, arid by a practi-

cally unanimous vote the representatives ot the people in the legislature there decided that they did not wish any part of the North-west Territories to be placed in the province of Manitoba. There may be a few people scattered here and there who would not object to the annexation of some part of the territories to the province of Manitoba, but the opinion as expressed by the representatives of the people in their assembly was unanimously against division of the territories, by taking away any part lying to the westward of Manitoba and adding it to that province. I do not know that this debate upon provincial autonomy in all its phases is appropriate to a discussion of this item, but let me say a word with reference to certain ' demands,' if we may call them so, or, suggestions that were made by the responsible people representing the North-west Territories. The Minister of the Interior has quoted a clause in which they practically demand-or in which they suggest, at all events-that the public resources should be handed over to the local authority. The hon. minister also said that lie doubted whether any agreement which the House of Commons at the present time could be got to accept, would be such an agreement as would not compel the Northwest Territories to come back here within one or two years. That simply proves to my mind that the demands or suggestions made by the government of the North-west are not unreasonable. It may be that to a majority of the members of the House of Commons at the present time, they might seem unreasonable, but if, unless these suggestions are adopted, the position is going to involve a lack of permanency in the arrangement, then we must come to the conclusion that there is reason in the suggestion made by those who represent the North-west Territories.
I dealt at some length last session with this phase of the question, devoting myself not to an argument in favour of the proposition that the time had arrived, but to some phase of the terms which I thought ought to be arranged. I say now, as I said then, that I do not believe that any arrangement will have the basis of permanency, or that any* arrangement Will ever be arrived at that would be satisfactory to the people of the North-west, except an arrangement by which the public resources shall be handed over to the local authority, and that they shall be placed upon the same basis as are the people of the other provinces of Canada, except the province of Manitoba. Leaving that phase of the question, and turning to the item, it is evident that the people of the North-west Territories are not going to be granted provincial autonomy this year, and that being so, the local authority needs money to carry on this year's business. I accept what has been said by my hon. friend the minister, and I am glad to have the intimation that there will be an increase brought down in the supplementary estimates. But
with regard to the reply he made to my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) respecting the fact that there were two sides to the question, even with regard to the estimate; I do not know that it would be fair to adopt that statement with too great positiveness. As I endeavoured to explain at an earlier stage, this in reality at the present time, is simply one of the ordinary services which parliament is in duty bound to provide for. With regard to every other department of government, the minister has the advice of officers who are directly responsible to him, as to the money he asks the House of Commons to vote; but with regard to this particular service the Minister of the Interior has no responsible officer who is in a position to declare whether the estimates that are submitted by the Northwest government are reasonable estimates or not. I therefore say that the demand that is made by the North-west government has in a great measure to be accepted as Anal. The North-west authorities are the people who make the estimate; they are responsible to the electors there for the amount of the estimate which they present, and therefore this service is in a different position from probably any other service that the House of Commons has to provide for. The authorities there have this year stated that they need an amount approximating $ GOO,000. As a matter of fact, estimates were brought down in the House of Assembly at Regina last week appropriating about $600,000. I accept with pleasure the intimation of the Minister of the Interior that an increase will be provided in the supplementary estimates, and I wish again to impress upon him as strongly as I can the real necessity for a very large and substantial increase.


Mr. HENDERSON.: It is early yet, only two minutes past twelve, and we have a large subject before us. Possibly we cannot do better than discuss it fully even at this late hour of the night. To my mind we have a very serious problem to settle in the Northwest. I look upon this question as one that will require the very best consideration this government can give to it. A new population is coming in to the North-west Territories; coming in from various countries, and no doubt that population will demand increased rights. To my mind, so long as the people of the North-west Territories consider themselves only as wards of this government, no spirit of self-reliance will ever assert itself amongst them. They will realize that they are dependant on us for the little bit of money we choose from year to year to dole out to them, and instead of becoming a great people, they will feel that they are simply the wards of the rest of the Dominion. Now, I would regard that as a matter of considerable,importance. The sooner these people realize that they stand on the same basis as all other portions of the Dominion, the better it will

be for Canada. Who has a right to say when provincial autonomy should be given to the North-west ? I do not claim that we here have any right to dictate to those people or coerce the North-west Territories to any form of government. When confederation was brought about we obtained our charter from the parliament of Great Britain ; but the parliament of Great Britain did not pass the British North America Act until the people of Canada asked it to do so; and when that parliament was asked by the people of Canada to crystallize Into law a constitution for the united provinces, it did not hesitate to do so ; and it framed that constitution, 1 believe, entirely on the basis which we desired. Now, we stand in relation to the North-west Territories very much in the same position that the parliament of Great Britain did to the old provinces of Canada : and to my mind, when the people of the North-west demand provincial autonomy, this parliament had better not hesitate one minute, but give them what they desire. I believe that will be better for the Dominion as a whole, and materially better for those people, more especially for the new population who are coming in, and who will join in giving effect to the new form of government which will be permanent ; and there will be a greater spirit of independence among the people. They will realize that they have their rights, that they are Canadians in the true sense of the word, and they will become better citizens. For my part, I would not for a single day withhold provincial autonomy from those people after we learn that they desire it. There seems to be some difference of opinion amongst the hon. members who come from that section of the country as to what the people of the North-west do desire. One hon. member says that in his section they are opposed to provincial autonomy, and other members say that the people in their sections take the opposite view. To my mind the best guide we can get is the government of the North-west Territories. Mr. Haultain, the Prime Minister of those territories, is certainly more immediately in touch with the requirements of that country and the sentiments of the people on the question than hon. members representing that country in this parliament. I find, in a letter which he has written to the hon. Minister of the Interior only within the past few weeks, he says :
I am prepared to say that the time has arrived when the question of organizing the territories on a provincial basis ought to be a subject of serious consideration.
Mr. Haultain, we are told, is a good ruler and administrator, has economically handled every dollar handed over to him, stands high in the estimation of the people, has been kept in power for a considerable length of time, and seems to voice the requirements of the country. Therefore I am disposed to attach considerable weight to what he says.


David Henderson: We are told by our friends from the Northwest Territories that there would be no cry if a sufficient amount of money were given by this parliament to the North-west Territories to meet their expenses. I am not sure that the whole thing Is a matter of money. I think there is some sentiment above that. Those people realize that they are simply the children of the Dominion, being taken care of by the rest of the Dominion, that they have no such status as we have in Ontario, in Quebec or in the small province of Prince Edward Island. They feel that they are the wards of the nation, like the Indians, that we give them so much money and send police out to look after them. In that way they feel that they are not citizens of this great Dominion to the same extent as the people of all the other provinces. I have no objection to vote more money to the North-west Territories. I think the present allowance is too small for their growing needs, and I do not think the government will meet with any opposition if they increase the grant. At any rate, we cannot afford to have those people feel that they are not treated fairly. We shall have to submit very largely to what they determine to be best in their own interest, and if we can satisfy them more readily by giving them provincial autonomy than by giving them a larger grant. I would say, give them provincial autonomy, and let us satisfy them in the best way we can. But if hon. gentlemen stand out and say that the time has not arrived for provincial autonomy, and that further demands must be made on the treasury of this country, in order that adequate assistanec, as we are told, may be given to them to meet their requirements, the best thing they can do to obtain that adequate assistance, is to join in giving adequate protection to the industries in the east where a large part of this money comes from, and then they will have better hope of fulfilling their expectations. Hon. members from the west must sink some of these small ideas which they have, and become men of broad minds ; and when they want to get an adequate sum to carry on the affairs of their country, they must deal on adequate terms with the rest of the Dominion, where a large part of the money is raised.
I hope the day is not far distant when we will realize that another great province has been added to the Dominion. If there is the slightest fear that there is going to be trouble In the west over the question, I hope that the government will at once take the matter into their most serious consideration. They should not have allowed the simple matter of the Finance Minister having to go on a pleasure trip to England, or the visit of a royal personage to Canada, or any reason of that kind to prevent their taking up this question. Let ns have the question settled before any trouble arises which might perhaps cause another rebellion in the North-west.


George Taylor: I think we might very well now adjourn. In any case there is no quorum, and considerable business has been done.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Minister of Finance House adjourned at 12.20 a.m. Saturday.

Monday, April 21, 1902.