1902-04-10

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Col.	3696,	16th	line	from	bottom,	for	' railroads ' read ' elevators.Col.	3696,	12th	line	from	bottom,	for	' railroads ' read 8 elevators.Col.	3701,	32nd	line	from	bottom,	for	'$25,000,000' read '$35,000,000.Col.	3701,	24th	line	from	bottom,	for	' $240,000,000 ' read ' $232,000,000.
IHouse of Commons Bebates

[Stage Direction]
Thursday, April 10, 1902.

The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved :: That the names of Messrs. Kaulbach and Loy he added to the Select Standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Wm. Mulock) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 100) to amend the Post Office Act.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).: What is the object of this Bill ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: The Bill mainly refers to certain classes of appointees in the service of the Post Office Department, known as messengers, packers, sorters, letter carriers and porters. It deals with the mode of their appointment and proposes to dispense with civil service examinations for this class of officers, substituting departmental examinations, such as the department may from time to time establish. It also changes the mode of payment, and in lieu of the present system, adopts a per diem allowance. It also shortens the time necessary for this class of officials to attain the maximum. For example, letter carriers attain the maximum in a period of the ninth year. Under this Bill, if it becomes law, they will be able to attain the maximum in about half that time.


Mr. SPROULE.: How would it affect their status under the Civil Service Act as regards superannuation ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: Any person now appointed to the service does not come under the Superannuation Act.
78B	R-8
That is it does not apply to any persons hereafter appointed. It was repealed as to future appointments by the Civil Service Retirement Act of 1898. The measure also contains a provision entitling those at present in the service, at their option, to come in under the provision of this measure, instead of the Civil Service Act which applies to these appointees, but it does not exempt any from the Civil Service Retirement Act of 1898 ; that is, under the present amendment, those who elect to come under the provisions of this Act will carry the right and obligation of remaining under the Civil Service Retirement Act of 189S. The measure also provides for the creation of a new office called the superintendent of city post offices. That officer will have the duty of visiting the various city post offices and such other post offices as he may be required to visit from time to time, and to assist the postmasters and their staffs to keep the post offices abreast of the times, and in every way to aid in promoting the efficiency of the various post offices. There is also provision in the measure altering the condition of the indemnity clauses contained in a former amendment of the Act, simply making them more comprehensive and overcoming a defect which has been discovered.


Mr. CLARKE.: Who performs the duty of inspecting city post offices now ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: It can hardly be said that the duty is performed. I believe that the inspectors have the right of performing that duty, but they are not experts in city post office work. Under this measure it is proposed to appoint as superintendent a person who has had many years practical experience, and who may retain the office that he is now filling. I may tell the House that, if the measure goes through and my present intentions are carried out by Council, the person who will be first appointed will be the present assistant postmaster of Toronto, Mr. George Ross. Every one acquainted with that gentleman's merits will admit that he has not his superior in the post office service. Of course, he will not carry two salaries. While he draws the salary of superintendent. he cannot draw the salary of assistant postmaster. There is, it appears, much ad-

vantage, but that is a point which can be better argued, perhaps in the second reading of the Bill-in the superintendent being actually connected with a post office, so that he may have a better opportunity of informing himself of the details, from time to time, in connection with the working of the office, rather than to have to gain information from hearsay, as is the case at the present time where the inspection may be done by inspectors who have, more or less-generally less rather than more-practical acquaintance with the technical working of a city post office.


Hon. JOHN HAGGART (South Lanark).: Why does not the Postmaster General apply the principle to all the departments ? It is an anomaly that a porter and a messenger in the post office department should be removed from the section of the Civil Service Act which at present applies to all the departments, and that they should come under a different rule. If this is an improvement, the hon. gentleman should offer an amendment to the Civil Service Act to make it applicable to all the departments.


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: We will see after it has worked a while whether it is an improvement. I do not know that uniformity is absolutely essential. I do not know anything that does more to depress energy at times than an aim at uniformity. A dead level uniformity. I think, very often discourages the ambitious. However, there is much in what my hon. friend says, that if this measure is good for one department it may be good for another. Perhaps different views may obtain on that point. Wo will see after it has worked a while whether it is wise to extend it to all the departments.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time. '


[Stage Direction]
Mr. MONK-by Mr. Taylor-asked :
1.	.Has the government given a contract to A. I. Auger, of Quebec, for spruce planks of 2 x 6 and 7 and 8 feet in length at a cost of $11-50 per thousand feet ?
2.	Did the government call for public tenders before granting the said contract ?
3.	What quantity of such planks should the said A. I. Auger furnish according to his contract ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I would ask the hon. gentleman to let that stand, in the absence of the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk), because we cannot find any such contract.


Hon. Mr. MULOCK.: 



PENSIONS TO NORTH-WEST MOUNTED POLICE.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 40) respecting pensions to officers of the North-west Mounted Police, read the second time ; and the House went into committee thereon.
On section 3,
The PRIME- MINISTER. I may inform the committee that this Act is founded up on a similar Act which was passed last year granting pensions to officers of the militia, and this section No. 3 is a reproduction of the provisions which have been applied to all the militia men, with the exception that in the Militia Act the term is 25 years to entitle an officer to superannuation, and here the term is 30 years, for the reason that at present officers of the mounted police force are subject to the disposition of the Act regarding superannuation.
Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in understanding that under this Act a member of the force will be able to have the superannuation part of the Civil Service Act applied to him as well as the pension, and that he will have the superannuation allowance in the event of being retired after 30 years, as well as the pension ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: No. There is a disposition at the end of the Act which makes it incumbent upon him to elect whether lie will remain under the Superannuation Act or come under this Act. He cannot have the two.


John Graham Haggart: I am sorry I was not in the House when the resolutions were adopted on which this Bill was founded. Would the right hon. gentleman state what difference this makes in the law at present in force ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: At present, officers of the force are subject to the provisions of the Superannuation Act. They can be superannuated in the same way as an officer of the civil service. They contribute a certain abatement, 3 per cent or 2 per cent, I forget which. Under this Act the abatement they will pay into the treasury, instead of being 2 or 3 per cent, is 5 per cent. The rate of pension is not very much different, but there is one great advantage, and it is this, that under this Act widows and children are entitled to pensions, whereas under the Act heretofore in force widows and children were not entitled to anything. That is the chief advantage we desired to give to the officers of the police force over the present Act.


John Graham Haggart: There is no objection to the extension of the Act, I think perhaps it is perfectly right. But here is

another principle that has gone to the winds. We have not only the principle of pension and superannuation applied to parties who have served their country faithfully for a number of years, but we have that principle now extended, notwithstanding the opposition of many supporters of the right hon. gentleman. I do not know whether he himself ever voiced their opinions, but a great many of his supporters have opposed the principle of pensions and superannuation altogether.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I do not think I ever sajd a word on that subject; in fact,
I am quite sure I never did. Moreover it is a growing time and if there is a class of officers in the service of the government who are entitled to be dealt with by the government as fairly and justly as possible,
I think my hon. friend will agree with me that it is the officers of the mounted police.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think it would be interesting to know how this Act will fare when it goes to the upper House and meets with our old friend McMullen.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I hope the curiosity of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) will be gratified.


Mr. OLIVER.: May I ask as to the interpretation of the word ' may ' in the third line of subsection 6 of section 3 ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: The interpretation of the word ' may ' is explained in the way I stated a moment ago. At the present time an officer of the force is subject to the Superannuation Act. He will have to elect whether he shall remain under the provisions of the present Superannuation Act or whether he shall be subject to the provisions of this Act, and of course, if he elects to come under the provisions of this Act, then, he comes under the disposition of this Act and the provisions we make in subsection 2 of section 4 will apply from the time lie has served, and the pension he is paid shall be an abatement or deduction of his pension. I hope 1 have made myself understood by my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: I do not follow the details exactly, but the point I wanted cleared was whether the use of the word ' may ' was to express the privilege on the part of the authorities to extend a pension to a man who had served as a non-commissioned officer or a constable, or whether it will be compulsory.


The PRIME MINISTER.: If the man elects to come under this Act it is compulsory.
On section 4,
Mr. SrROULE. I would like to ask the right hon. gentleman if he has made any
calculation to ascertain whether this will be adequate to meet the requirements of the fund, or if not to what extent ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I suppose my hon. friend means to ask whether or not a calculation has been made ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.


The PRIME MINISTER.: To ascertain whether or not this fund will be self-sustaining ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Yes.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I cannot say that we have made a calculation, but I understand that last year when a similar Bill was introduced in regard to the militia, such calculations were made, and it was supposed that the fund would be about self-sustaining, but I am not sure but that we may have to contribute a sum, but if we have to contribute anything it will not be a very large sum.
On section 5,


Mr. OSLER.: That clause, I think, should be very well considered, because a case might arise where an officer in the discharge of his duty, who had served three months, or three days of the time when he would be entitled to a pension, might be seriously wounded and incapacitated for further duty, and under this clause he would be compulsorily retired without pension and be obliged to take a very small gratuity. 1 think that clause certainly ought to be modified to some extent. It might work a very great injustice to men from time to time who are injured in the discharge of their duty.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I see the point of the objection of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) and it is not without being entitled to some consideration, but the hon. gentleman will realize at once that it cannot apply as an objection to this Bill. This Bill provides that no man shall be entitled to a pension unless he has been a contributor to the fund which is created for the purpose, for a certain number of years. It is expected that he will contribute to that fund for twenty years, that a fund will be created out of which his pension and those of his comrades will be paid, and that the fund will be self-sustaining. If we adopt the principle that a man without paying anything at all, is entitled to compensation,'that is a fair proposition to consider, but it cannot be considered in connection with this Bill. It would be beyond the principle that we have in view, bearing in mind that the principle of this Bill is the creation of a fund out of which this pension shall be paid. There is, however, a great deal to be said in favour of the

suggestion which has been made by the hon. member for West Toronto. Here is a man who has been for one or two years in the service, and he has contributed very little to the fund ; but, he has the misfortune to be disabled. Then, the hon. member for West Toronto' says, he ought to have a pension. I am not prepared to say that he should not have, and I think the country ought to be rich enough to provide for him. I am sorry to say I have a case for my consideration of a constable who lost his right arm in the discharge of his duty, and a very good man he was. He was disabled, and all we can give is a very small pension of a little more than $100 a year under the provisions of the Act we have. I would like very much if the law permitted me to give him a larger pension, but I am afraid the only way to deal with the case is to come to parliament and ask for an appropriation.


Edmund Boyd Osler: I am not referring so much to an officer who has served one or two years, because his case is a hard one, and I agree that it should be dealt with separately, but I am referring to an officer who has almost or nearly served his full time, when he has been disabled, and when perhaps one or two years of further service would have entitled him to the full pension. Would it not be possible to provide under such circumstances that he might continue to pay his percentage to the pension fund so that he would be entitled to l.is pension ?


Robert Laird Borden: If the right hon. gentleman (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) will look at the preceding clause he will see that his answer to the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Osier) is not an adequate one at all. The previous clause provides that in case an officer becomes entitled to a pension by reason of having been employed in tlie Civil Service for a certain period, or by reason of having been a non-commissioned officer or constable, from his pension shall be deducted 5 per cent for the necessary number of years. What is the objection to making exactly the same provisions with regard to this ? Suppose an officer is injured in tlie discharge of his duties, after having served fifteen years, he would be entitled to no pension under the Act as it stands. Why not say, that such a man shall be entitled to a pension but that for the first five years you will make a deduction from his pension, equivalent to the amount he would have paid had he served for the balance of the twenty years ? It seems to me that it is not only perfectly feasible but perfectly fair.


The PRIME MINISTER.: The point is not new to me, for I have discussed it with the officers of the department. The difficulty is to draw the line. My hon. friend speaks of a period of fifteen years, but if the man has served for ten years or twelve Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
years he ought to be entitled to a pension on the same reasoning. In the previous Superannuation Act there was a provision under which an officer became entitled to a pension after twenty-five years. That was reduced to twenty years, and now my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) suggests it should be fifteen years. The difficulty is to draw the line. I feel great sympathy with the idea presented by my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) and I wish it could be worked out in some way. We have fixed the limit at twenty years and there would be great difficulty in departing from it.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: In reference to what the leader of the opposition has said, I may say that when we introduced the Militia Pension Bill last year, of which this Bill is a copy, we carefully considered the matter and I felt as he does that twenty years seemed to be a long term. However, we decided that twenty years was a safe period to fix, and that in any case short of that, it should be a subject of special consideration in parliament. The clause under discussion is framed in the interest of the officer, by which if he desires it he may leave the service and get back the money which he has paid in. I may say to my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Clarke) that it does not follow that an officer who is seriously wounded shall for that reason leave the service, because it is quite possible that he may continue to serve out his whole twenty years and get his pension. .


Edward Frederick Clarke: The clause has reference to an officer who is constrained to leave because of bodily injury.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It does not say he must leave. If the government wishes him to leave in the interest of the service, then a special arrangement could be made. This clause is in the interest of the officer to enable him if he so chooses, to take the initiative and get his money back.


Edward Frederick Clarke: If that is the intention the clause should be made clearer.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Perhaps so.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What is the practice in the Imperial service ? If an officer has been incapacitated after two or three years service does he get a pension ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think the practice is that in such cases a special pension is arranged. However, the Imperial Pension Act differs materially from this.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not exactly see why you should select a period of

twenty years any more than a period of ten years. Suppose one of these men in the suppression of an Insurrection loses an arm or a leg and cannot thereafter perform his duty as an officer ; then if he has served only five years or ten years or fifteen years he gets no pension at all. The committee is handicapped by having no precise statement as to what this is going to cost the country under the present conditions. Unless it' would impose a very excessive burden on the country I would be inclined to go the length of saying that any man who is constrained to leave the service by reason of injuries received in the discharge of his duties ought to have a pension-subject, it may be, to the payment of five per cent of his average pajr for the remainder of the time which is necessary to make up the twenty years. Some scheme of that kind would be fair. I regret that my right hon. friend has not seen fit to have some actuarial calculation made as to what that would cost. I hesitate to move an amendment in that direction in the absence of precise information as to what it would cost the country. Had I that information I might move to amend the Bill. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman would give us more time for consideration.


Tiie PRIME MINISTER.: There is no objection to allow that section to stand.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the right hon. gentleman recognizes with me that there is ground for consideration.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I see the point.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax), The right hon. gentleman says that if you fix any period whatever, you will have a man coming within a few months of it, and that a difficulty would arise in that case. I would be inclined to take the bull by the horns, and to say, that if a man is injured in the discharge of his duties he would be entitled to a pension ; the government deducting from his pension 5 per cent for each year until the period of twenty years is made up. I would be inclined to do that, assuming that it would not impose too serious a burden on the country, and as to that I am not in a position to judge at present.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: When the Militia Pension Bill was introduced last year, a very careful statement was made by the Finance Department which went to show that taking our previous provision, which was that an officer retiring should receive one-tenth of his pay as a gratuity for every year he had served ; taking that as a basis, and 5 per cent for twenty years, it was calculated that there would be no charge really on the country, in other words that the Militia Pension Bill was costing the country no more than the previous system of gratuity.
If there has been no system of gratuity in the mounted police, it is clear from the statement which I refer to, that the expense of this Bill to the country would be equal to one-tenth of the pay of each officer for each year he has served


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot quite follow what the minister has said.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I said that prior to the passing of the Militia Pension Act of last session, a provision was made for the retirement of officers, which was as follows : One-tenth of the officer's pay at the time of his retirement for every year that he has served, is to be allowed ; that is to say, if an officer receiving $1,000 a year has served twenty years, he would get $2,000 on retirement. On the basis of twenty years at 5 per cent contribution per year, under the Bill we passed last year, it would not cost the country anything. If there is no 10 per cent provision in the North-west Mounted Police Act, and I think there is not. then the cost to the country will be exactly that 10 per cent of a man's pay for every year he has served.


Robert Laird Borden: How much did this gratuity amount to annually in the militia ?	-


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I forget at this moment, but I should think that since this government has been in power it has amounted to something like $5,000.


Frank Oliver: It does not seem to be a question of what the cost is. It is a question of what is fair and right. If I read the section correctly, it seems to me that it misses the important purpose of a pension. Under the provisions of the Bill we give a pension to fin officer who has served his full term in the force for the reason that lie has become incapacitated for further service in the force or for earning his living outside the force. The man who is incapacitated by reason of bodily injury received in the discharge of his duty, at whatever period of his term of service, is in exactly the same position as the man who has served twenty-five or thirty years; and I humbly submit that it is not only for his advantage, but in the interest of the country, that he should be dealt with in the same way. If a case arises in which an officer is compelled to risk life and limb, it is only fair that having risked his life and limb in the service of the country, he should not be at a financial loss. The country should stand the financial loss so far as that can be done. I would suggest that this is the purpose of a pension, and, with all due deference, that purpose is not met by this section.
Section allowed to stand.

On section 8,


Frank Oliver: This clause is in exactly the same position as clause 5. If the officer loses his life in the discharge of his duty, his family become dependent on the country in one way or another, and it seems to me that the least the government can do is to replace that loss to his family as far as it call reasonably be done.


The PRIME MINISTER.: My hon. friend will find that section 10 provides for a rate of pension for the widow.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The argument of my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) is, and I entirely agree with it, that it should not be necessary for a man to serve for twenty years and then to lose his life before his widow or children can receive anything. If he serves only five years or ten years and loses his life in the service of the country, his * family should be entitled to some consideration at the hands of the government.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I have only to repeat what I said a moment ago, that if the intention of the Bill were to provide pensions for the officers of the mounted police out of the treasury of the country, the remarks made by my hon. friend would apply I but the object of this Bill is not to create a charge upon the country. It is expected that the fund to be created will be self-supporting, or that it will be supplemented by the treasury in only a limited degree.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I presume that the case my hon. friend from Toronto has in mind is the case of a man who loses his life or is wounded in action. There is a scale of pensions in force which has been in existence since 1885, which is applicable to such a case.


John Graham Haggart: I was going to ask the right hon. gentleman if there were any rules or regulations of the department applicable to such cases. This Bill is not to be considered as providing for pensions, but for a savings fund to which each man contributes, and it provides for the distribution of this fund in a certain way. I suppose the right hon. gentleman has had an actuarial calculation made for this purpose. But, besides that, there ought to be some regulation covering such cases as the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) refers to. I think perhaps the Minister of Justice is thinking of the Militia Pensions Act.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: We are making that applicable to the North-west mounted police.


John Graham Haggart: That covers the whole thing.


Frank Oliver: 


Edward Frederick Clarke: The clause we are discussing does not deal with pensions, but with gratuities, and there must be a service of twenty years before the widows or children are entitled to consideration. By what rule or actuarial calculation do you ascertain what amounts should be retained which will be the equivalent of the annuities to the widow or orphans of those who lose their lives in the service of the country ?


Hon. Mr. TISDALE.: There seems to be a misconception of the Act. It is not an Act granting pensions to North-west mounted police at all, but a different proposition altogether.


Edward Frederick Clarke: The title of the Bill is an Act respecting the pensions to officers of the North-west mounted police.


David Tisdale: Yes, but this Act is not intended to cover all cases. It applies to contributors who belong to the force, but by the changes suggested, we are making it apply to people who do not contribute their share. I am not expressing any opinion as to whether that is wise or not.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Section 8 leaves it at the option of the government to determine whether a pension shall be granted at all or not.


The PRIME MINISTER.: The Act is intended only to apply to those who contribute to the fund .and in the cases referred to, where a man. disabled or killed, has not served His full time, they are dealt with separately by the government. Take, for instance, item 107 of the estimates, ' pensions payable to militiamen and mounted police and others on account of the rebellion of 1885.' This deals with men who were disabled in the service of the country, and in this we have followed the rule 'which was laid dowTn in the Act of 1885 concerning the militia. I do not know that we can at present deal with such cases in any other way.


Robert Laird Borden: I can hardly agree in the view expressed by my right hon. friend with regard to the scope of the Act. It does not make the amount of pensions depend on what was paid in, but on the length of the service. Even if there was not a dollar paid in, still those who served their full time would be entitled to a pension on that account. We are not discussing the details of the Act, and it will be quite proper for us to make any modifications which will extend the principle of the Act to the cases mentioned by my hon. friends from" Toronto and Alberta. I am not in possession of all the information in the hands of the Minister of Justice, and I would like to know whether, in his remarks, he referred to the provisions of any statute ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I referred to the militia regulations which are made applicable by Order in Council to the North-west Mounted Police.


Robert Laird Borden: Is there any statute enabling- that to be done 1


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I presume there must be a statute authorizing the Order in Council to be passed.


The PRIME MINISTER.: We take an appropriation every year for those pensions, and by Order in Council we provide the scale on which this fund shall be expended.


Edward Frederick Clarke: While the right hon. gentleman says that cases such as those I have mentioned are specially dealt with by parliament. or the recommendation of an Order in Council, the clause allowed to stand proposes to deal with them in an arbitrary way. If an officer is obliged to quit the force before a pension can be granted him the Governor in Council may grant him a gratuity of three months pay for every two years ho lias served. If he has not served the full number of years, he should be entitled to a reasonable pension for the services he has rendered.


David Tisdale: If you allow those to participate who have served shorter terms the scheme will not be self-supporting. There is no doubt we have the power, if we wish, to provide that every mounted policeman who is hurt, shall receive a pension, whether he has been only a short time or a long time in the service. But we have never gone so far, I believe, as to make a general pension applying to the militia or to the mounted police. There have been difficulties in the way. This applies to officers.	t


The PRIME MINISTER.: There is a Pension Act for the men which has been on the statute-book for a long time.


David Tisdale: At all events this applies only to the officers. If we desire to subscribe what is necessary to an enlargement of the scope of any existing scheme, let us do it with our eyes open, let us have some sort of calculation to, show what we are to be asked for. The right hon. leader of the government should be ready to say that he is prepared to ask the Minister of Finance for what is necessary.


Robert Laird Borden: If I regarded the Bill as my hon. friend from South Norfolk (Hon. Mr. Tisdale) does, I could not vote for it, for we have no information to indicate that the scheme will be self-supporting. The right hon. leader of the government has not brought down a line or a figure to show that the contributions provided for will make the scheme self-sustaining. I am not regarding it in that light at all, but
rather in this way-though it may impose some burden upon the country, and very likely will, it is right and proper to make some provisions for these men and at the same time to make them contribute in as fair and reasonable a way as possible towards the support of the fund. I agree with the hon. member for South Norfolk that if the scheme is to be dealt with as a self-supporting scheme we should have the further information he has referred to.


Frank Oliver: I understood the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) to say that those receiving injuries in action were provided for under the Militia Act. There have been many injuries received by members of the mounted police force in the discharge of their duties which could hardly be characterized as injuries received in action. So I think it is necessary, if the idea I have is to be met, that there should be provision in this Act to meet the case of those so injured. It seems to me rather strange that an officer who, we will suppose, has successfully dodged danger for twenty or twenty-five years should get a pension, while the dependent relatives of an officer who, in the first years of his term, serves his country by sacrificing life or limb receives nothing. That is surely an unfair proposition, and, what is more, is not in the interests of efficient service, which is the chief purpose to be attained by all such measures as this.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I understand that the right lion! gentleman (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) allows clause 5 to stand for further consideration. I would ask that clause 8 be treated in the same way.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Stand.
Section allowed to stand.
On section 10,


Frank Oliver: Is this amount payable yearly ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Yes.


Mr. ROSS (Ontario).: For life ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Yes.
On section 11,


Frank Oliver: Is this also a yearly payment ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: Yes.
On section 15,


Robert Laird Borden: Is the fortieth line appears the date ' the thirteenth day of .Tune.' I do not see the significance of the ' thirteenth.' Is this not a misprint for the ' thirtieth ' day of .Tune ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I suppose that this is a misprint for ' thirtieth.'


John Graham Haggart: This applies to officers, and officers may make option. Now, suppose an officer is 29 years in the service, and would have paid his 5 per cent only one year, would he still be entitled to all the privileges of this Act ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I do not think there is one officer in that category. There are only two officers who have been in the service over 25 years.
1 'rogress reported.



PILOTAGE ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 76) further to amend the Pilotage Act, (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) read the second time; and House went into committee thereon.
Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the Minister of Justice would tell us the effect of the change he makes in the present Act.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: The change is very simple. It has for its object to extend the operations of the Pilotage' Act as it now stands with respect to vessels navigating between the maritime provinces and the Atlantic seaboard north of New York, to vessels that may navigate between Ontario and the great lakes and the ports on the St. Lawrence within the limits of the province of Quebec. As we have it now under chapter SO, of the Revised Statutes of Canada, section 59, it is provided that a certain class of ships shall be exempt from the compulsory payment of pilotage. Amongst these are :
Ships propelled wholly or in part by steam employed in trading from port to port in the same province, or between any one or more of the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia or Prince Edward Island, and any other or others of them, or employed on voyages between any port or ports in the said provinces or any of them and the port of New York or any port of the United States of America on the Atlantic north of New York; except only in the ports of Halifax, Sydney pilotage district, Miramichi and Pictou-as respects each of which ports the-pilotage authorities of the district may, from time to time, determine with the approval of the Governor in Council whether any, and which, if any, of the steamships so employed shall or shall not be wholly or partially, to what extent and under what circumstances, exempt from the compulsory payment of pilotage dues.
That is to say, under the law as we bad it previous to 1900, a vessel trading between any one of the Atlantic ports of the United States north of New York or file ports of the maritime provinces, and any port in the province of Quebec was exempt from compulsory pilotage. Then in 1900 the provisions of this section declaring vessels to be exempt were extended to vessels trading from any place in Newfoundland to any one of the provinces I have mentioned. But the committee will notice that there is no pro-


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: vision here for vessels trading between the province of Ontario and provinces mentioned. A vessel trading from Ontario or from any of the ports on the great lakes, down to the maritime provinces, would not be exempt, because there is no reference to the province of Ontario in the Act at present. The amendment therefore is intended to extend the exemption of vessels trading between Ontario and the province of Quebec, or between any port on the great lakes and the province of Quebec. It extends the exemption to vessels trading downwards as well as to vessels trading upwards.
Hon. Mr. I-IAGGART. Is it intended to exempt from compulsory pilotage ? It looks as if it did so.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Then a vessel coming from the United States or one of the eastern provinces up to the port of Montreal, or going further up to the great lakes, if it is propelled by steam, or partly by steam, It is not compelled to employ a pilot.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: If it goes from a port in the maritime provinces to a port in Quebec, but if it goes into Ontario, the statute does not provide for exemption. Exemption will apply all over now.


John Graham Haggart: In other words, if I understand the minister aright, it allows vessel owners to employ any pilot they choose.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Yes, it is in the direction of free pilotage.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax) I understand from the minister that the intention of this Act is to enable a vessel propelled wholly or in p:yt by steam, coming from the maritime provinces to Ontario, to be exempted from pilotage dues.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: As the law stands now, a vessel coming from the maritime provinces and going up into any port on the St. Lawrence within the province of Quebec is exempt. The object of this Bill is to exempt in the same way vessels that may trade from the great lakes or from any port in Ontario with the St. Lawrence or the other ports below. Vessels trading between Ontario and ports on the great lakes with the other provinces, are to be exempted from compulsory pilotage, as those are now that trade between the maritime provinces and Quebec.
On section 1,


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: That is the law as it now stands.


John Graham Haggart: I notice the Bill does not apply to trans-Atlantic steamers. The principal object ought to be to apply it to them because the general complaint
2497	APRIL 10, 1902
that is made by the owners of steamships coming from the other side of. the Atlantic is, that, as they are compelled to use pilots, and. as they have to pay for them, they ought to be allowed to make a free choice of pilots. The provisions of the Bill ought to toe extended to steamships coming from the other side.


Hon. Mr. COSTIGAN.: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask some explanation in regard to the last paragraph of that section It seems to me that an exception is made in favour of the port of Halifax, the Sydney pilotage district, Miramiehi and Pictou. In these pilotage districts, pilotage dues may be charged or vessels may be exempt wholly or partially from the payment of dues. What is the reason for that distinction ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I think it would perhaps be wiser for me to ask the hon. member for Victoria, N.B. (Mr. Costi-gan) to enlighten me as to the intention because this is the law as I found it on the statute-book for many years, and I have simply re-enacted it.


John Costigan: I do not think 1 could give the explanation, because, in my ignorance, not being a lawyer, I read what I saw before me, and I read that a certain section had been repealed and that the following had been substituted therefor. I may be too dense to comprehend this if there is no change and the same law is substituted.


Mr. COCHRANE.: I do not think the hon. Minister of Justice gave a very good reason for the Bill he has introduced. If he does not understand the Bill he introduces or the statute that lie proposes to amend, then, he ought to submit a Bill that he does understand so that we can understand the information he gives us.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: 1 have introduced a Bill to amend the Pilotage Act. There are certain provisions amending the law in existence and there are certain other provisions which are merely re-enacting the existing law. In reference to the questions of my hon. friend I merely referred him to the explanation of those who introduced and passed the law. At any rate, I took the old law as it was and made changes to the extent I thought necessary.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Hoes this Bill apply to British ships ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: To all ships.


John Costigan: I asked for information ns to why this last paragraph gave exceptional powers to these districts named. The hon. minister explains that he is making certain changes in the law and re-enacting certain portions of the old law. Consistent with the first question I asked, if it be necessary to change certain 79
portions, what are the different conditions that induced him; to change those portions and leave the others unchanged ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I have left that portion unchanged which has been in operation for many years, and I assume, that, it having, been in operation for many years and no complaint having been made, it is giving satisfaction.


John Graham Haggart: I have not yet got from the hon. Minister of Justice the reason why this Act should apply to vessels coming from the maritime provinces and from the American coast and not to transAtlantic liners.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: I do not apply it to trans-Atlantic liners at all.


John Graham Haggart: I know. Why
do you not ?


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.: Because this clause is practically to provide for the coasting trade as the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) suggests. But those who understand the meaning of the pilotage laws know that the trans-Atlantic liners are included in the pilotage system and that it is extremely desirable that the whole system should be changed, and I am not quite sure that it is very far from the mind of the minister to do that. I think he is considering the question, because, as I understand it now, compulsory pilotage does not exist. What does exist is the compulsory payment of pilotage dues and compulsory payment of pilotage dues is applicable to trans-Atlantic steamers. As a matter of practice an owner will take a pilot on board his ship but if he did not do so he would be obliged to pay pilotage dues notwithstanding that fact. This is a condition of things that deserves consideration but it is a different question from that which is dealt with by this Bill.


John Graham Haggart: I know the Bill does not apply to that question, but the complaint is made by the owners of transAtlantic steamers that they have not the option of employing the pilot they choose when they come in. Under the Bill you need not employ a pilot or you may employ the pilot you choose. Why not give the same privilege to trans-Atlantic steamers ?
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply.
Militia-Pay and allowances, $392,100.
['No, it is on the front, next to the river. Those slides occur every year.\nSome resolutions reported.']
David Tisdale: Mr. Chairman, when the militia estimates were up a few days ago their passage was objected to because the report of the Major-General and the other reports were not in the hands of hon. members. They came down very shortly afterwards, and before we take up these estimates, I pro-



pose, with the consent of the committee, to make a few remarks upon the general question of the militia. My desire is to get other hon. members of this House to take an interest in this question other than what they call the colonels. They generally speak of militia day in the House as colonels' day. There are very few militia men In the House and a number of them are now out of the service. I have not now the honour of belonging to the service, because I am long past the age limit and probably my usefulness comes in being able to give some attention to the question and perhaps to offer some suggestions. I think now a very opportune time for us to seriously consider the condition of the militia of Canada, and I want to ask hon. gentlemen who represent this Dominion whether they are going to be content to have three or four, or perhaps half a dozen gentlemen in the House, because they happen to be in the force, assume the responsibility to the country for the estimates and for understanding the wants, the actions and the fitness of the militia and all the different branches of the service ?
If the committee will allow me, I will bring- their attention back to forty years ago; a time which marked an epoch in the history of our Canadian militia. At that time a thrill of indignation went through the British empire, because a foreign power saw fit to board a British ship and lay hands upon southern refugees who had sought sanctuary there. In what state were the defences of Canada at that time ? There was scarcely a serviceable rifle or musket, and there was not what we would call today any real organization of our militia. To the great honour of Canada, over 240, 000 men answered on the day fixed to the call of their country. That was a larger number than had ever responded to the call of the United States at any fixed day during the war in that country. Up to the time of the Trent affair I do not think there were half a dozen companies in our whole active militia, that were properly supplied, with arms or knew anything about the use of them.
It was then that Canada decided to lay the foundation of a military force which would be a credit to the country. That force has since then grown to splendid proportions. We have made progress. Another epoch has now arrived in our military history. The empire for the first time has availed of the colonies to assist her in her struggle against a foreign power. Let us consider if our contribution to the empire is such as is creditable to a great federated country like Canada. We have plenty of spirit and any quantity of men, but I do not think that we seriously consider the position of our military forces. This subject is all the more pertinent in view of the fact that our Prime Minister will meet the Prime Ministers of all the colonies in Lon-


David Tisdale: don to discuss among other things the military defences of the empire. I am getting along past the time of life when I can serve my country in the field, and it is only left for me to give my advice in this parliament in the light of my experience as to what our military- force should be. I am afraid I must accuse myself that in the past, like others, I have not taken our militia seriously enough. The time has come when we ought to consider this matter seriously, and when we should give encouragement and support to the boys who are enrolling in our active militia, and to the boys who have gone thousands of miles away to leave their bones on the veldt of South Africa in defence of the empire. I asked the Minister of Militia some time ago to defer his estimates until we had the report of the Major General commanding. We have that report now, and I am not depreciating the able men who formerly have been in command of our militia when I say that the report of the present Major General is perhaps the most thorough and most complete that we have ever had. This report is presented in such a common sense way that It can be understood by every man in this House, whether he has had previous military training or not. Witli the permission of the House I propose to consider that report briefly and to explain how our defensive force is organized. I shall make my remarks on this subject entirely free from politics, and entirely free from any fault finding, even if there be room for finding fault. It is my opinion, as I have often said before, that the militia should be kept entirely out of politics. It is above and beyond all politics. Of course, it must to some extent have a political bearing because the minister who controls our militia for the time being must belong to one or other of the political parties, but so far as I am concerned I will exclude politics as much as possible from the consideration of this question. If I have any fault to find with the Minister of Militia, or with the manner in which the contingents tyere despatched to South Africa, I propose to do as the Liberals do in the old country : viz., keep my criticism until the war is over and then bring the minister to account. I intend to show to the people of the world that whatever our political disagreements may be in Canada, we are ready and willing to show a united front in defence of our country and of the empire, and to leave complaint and criticism until we have conquered the enemy.
Now, Sir, the defensive force of Canada is divided into three branches, namely: The permanent force ; the active militia or volunteers ; and the sedentary militia. The means of instruction are under four heads : First, the permanent force or Royal schools of military instruction connected therewith ; second, provisional schools for the examination of officers ; third, the Royal Military

College ; and fourth, camps of instructions [DOT]or annual drill.
The provisional school and the Royal Military College are only for officers, and the Royal school of military instruction and the annual camps are for non-commissioned officers and men. In regard to the permanent force, I think it is well understood without my explaining it, more than to say [DOT]that it is a force that is enrolled and kept under military regulations just as if it were composed of so many regular soldiers ; but the instructive feature of the force is very important.
Now, with your permission, I will read what the Major General says about that force, and his recommendations and suggestions in connection with it :
In my report for the year 1900, I adverted to the difficulties against which the units of the permanent forces had to contend by reason of the number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men on service with the contingents in South Africa.. This year I have had the opportunity of seeing them under normal condition, and it gives me great pleasure to be able to report that the general result of my inspections was very satisfactory as regards their discipline, training, conduct and administration, but I regret to say that all branches are considerably below their established strength, so much so indeed that I cannot consider them thoroughly efficient, even for instructional purposes. The reason why difficulty is experienced in obtaining recruits will probably be found in the great commercial and agricultural prosperity of the Dominion and the consequent demand for civil labour at a high rate of wages. It is also a matter of common notoriety in the military service that the smaller the establishment the harder* it is to maintain it at full strength.
In my opinion the most effectual measure for maintaining the establishment of the permanent units will be a readjustment of the rates of pay so as to bring the emoluments ef the soldier, inclusive of his rations, clothing, medical attendance and quarters, more on a level with the wages he could earn in civil employment. The present rate of dally pay is 40 cents, or 10 cents less than is paid to militiamen for annual training and to men serving in the 3rd (S.S.) battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment at Halifax, N.S., and to this I think may bo attributed the desertions that usually occur in the early summer, when the demand for labour is on the increase. In so small a force there is no use for men of inferior stamp. We need the very best, and there appears no reason why the militia should not succeed equally with the North-west mounted police if wo compete in the labour market on fairly even terms.
The object for which the permanent force is maintained is primarily to furnish schools of instruction in which officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the active militia can not only be trained in drill, tactics and discipline more fully and practically than with their own units, but also learn the interior administration and the routine of duties pertaining to their respective arms of the service. They should also be able to acquire the habits and demeanour of officers and soldiers, in order that they may serve as models for the corps to which they belong. To this end ail ranks of the per-79i
manent corps exert themselves and do their utmost to carry out. their important duties as far as. circumstances will permit, the classes receiving very careful instruction.
Then follow recommendations for the filling up and increase of the permanent troops, concluding as follows :
The foregoing recommendations would entail an increase to the permanent force of about 18 officers and 462 ' other ranks,' and consequently clause 28 of the Militia Act would require to be amended so as to provide for the maintenance of permanent troops no* exceeding 1,500 men ; but I submit that the enormous increase in the wealth and responsibilities of the Dominion since the Act was passed more than warrant such an increase. In support of these recommendations I would urge that if they are adopted, the country would possess a force of highly trained troops, not only efficient for the purpose for which it is primarily maintained, but also effective in the event of war cr internal disturbance, which at the existing establishments it cannot possibly be. If, therefore, it be impracticable to accept this increase in its entirety, I yet hope that the additional ' rank and Die ' may be granted as a first step towards placing our permanent troops on a more satisfactory basis.	.
Then he speaks of the provisional schools. I will not trouble the House by reading it, because I can explain it more shortly, and if I went on to read all these extracts, much as I would like to put them on ' Hansard,' it would consume too much time. He recommends the abolition of the provisional schools, for many reasons, the concluding one of which I will read :
I believe the introduction of the provisional schools has had a prejudicial effect on the standard of efficiency attained by many young militia officers, and that in the best interest of the service it is inexpedient to continue to hold them. With this opinion I feel sure the [DOT]majority of experienced militia officers will concur.
He gives many other reasons, which can be read by those who wish to follow the matter up in detail. As to the Royal Military College, he says :
The commandant comments adversely upon the result of the riding instruction, but the conditions are very unfavourable.
He recommends that the riding part of the instruction be abolished, and that the cadets obtain that experience by being attached to the Royal Dragoons at Toronto. Then he goes on-and I wish to call the particular attention of the Minister of Militia to this :
It is a matter for great regret that this admirable institution, established for the express purpose of securing for the Canadian militia a supply of well trained and capable officers, entirely fails to attain this object. What brought about this state of things it is impossible to say, but one thing seems clear, that in the period spent at the college, the students do not imbibe any soldierly ambition or acquire a taste for military employment, and it is sad to see, year after year, young gentlemen who have received such an excellent military education

at great cost to the state, holding aloof from the service of their country. With a view to secure in some measure a return for the cost to Canada of keeping up a militajy college, I suggest that before a young gentleman is admitted as a student, he and his parents or guardians should give a joint bond that on graduation he will serve for a specific number of years a3 a commissioned officer 'in a corps of the active militia, and I consider that some regulation of this nature should be adopted, if in the future the college is to justify its existence as a military institution.
Now, do not misunderstand this. He does not find any fault with the standard of the college, its possibilities and the admirable way in which it is conducted; hut he objects-and I feel strongly with him-to the large expense of that college, if the result is not that for a time at least Canada shall have the advantage of the service of these cadets whom we educate at such great expense.
Now, the active militia or volunteers include, as we all know, Infantry, artillery, and cavalry; and I will read what the Major General says of these forces, his appreciation of them, and his suggestions in regard to them :
My inspections of the camps of instruction in military districts No. 1, 2, 3 and 4, 5, 6 and 7 afforded me an opportunity of seeing a great number of the rural corps at theii; training, and enabled me to gauge their practical efficiency. As in my report last year, I can speak most favourably of the zeal, intelligence and excellent spirit of all ranks, and the administration, cleanliness, good order and discipline maintained in the camps was highly creditable to all concerned. I must also specially commend the manner in which the officers In command and staff officers carried out their duties. I believe that, taken altogether, as much was accomplished in the way of training as existing conditions will permit of. In some districts the results were rather better than In others, which was in a measure due to very adverse climatic conditions, whic.h seriously interfered with tactical instruction, but I can only repeat that in nine working days it is absolutely impossible to impart more than the mere rudiments of a soldier's training. The time does not admit of any practice instruction in the more important branches of ' field training ' or ' musketry,' and consequently the net result is very far indeed from being satisfactory as regards the practical efficiency of the Canadian militia. Officers and men, I feel sure, do their very best, but .1. can only reiterate what I said in my last report, viz.: 'that the troops can never be made even fairly fit to take the field with the limited period of annual drill that they receive under existing arrangements.' The difficulty is greatly accentuated by the fact that, as a rule, quite 60 per cent of the men in the ranks are raw recruits, who retard the progress of the remainder, for, as the strength of a chain is that of its weakest link, so is the instruction of large bodies of troops in advanced modern tactics hindered by the presence of a mass of practically untrained men in the ranks.
The wastage that takes place year after year in our rural corps is perhaps the most serious drawback against which the militia of Canada has


David Tisdale: to contend, and it is impossible to acquit captains of companies of a considerable share of blame for this unfortunate state of affairs, for many of them seem to consider that so long as they can bring into camp some approximation to their full establishment, the proportion of 1 recruits ' is of no consequence, neither do they make any efforts to enforce the provisions of the Militia Act against deserters. Apathy on the part of the officers has a most direct influence upon the military, spirit of the people who compose the rural companies, and I am quite confident that zealous exertion on the part of the officers would go far to mitigate if it did not altogether remove this evil.
I am still of opinion, however, that the value of the militiaman's services increases in direct ratio to the extent of his training, and that consequently it would be true economy to adopt a scale of pay graduated according to the number of trainings performed.
But even with the recruits reduced to the proper proportion (33. per cent), It is obvious that they should undergo some preliminary training before the bulk of their regiment assembles, so that they might be fit to take their places in the ranks with the older soldiers. Progressive instruction could then be given to all on the same lines, which at present is impracticable owing to the backwardness of the first year men.
Then he proceeds to recommend his remedy. He says :	.
I therefore recommend that the statutory drill period should be altered to give a maximum of 28 days.
In another part of his report he divides that period up and shows that the recruits should have seven days drill before the others. Then he goes on to say :
It is obvious that such an extension of the training would entail a corresponding increase of expenditure, but not more I conceive than the important interests involved in the defence of Canada would justify, and even demand. I venture tfc think that this is a question that has never yet been taken seriously, and the time seems ripe that the defence of the country should be dealt with as a practical matter and in a common sense way. It goes without saying that the expenditure on military defence, against troubles from without or from within, must be governed by fiscal considerations, or in other words by what the country can afford, but I -would urge most earnestly, that it -is to the quality rather than to the quantity of our defenders that our efforts should be directed. 20,000 troops thoroughly well officered, trained and equipped would give the country a better return for the money expended on its military forces than 40,000 men on paper, who, under existing conditions, cannot be expected to be .efficient for actual and real service in the field. - If, therefore, the country is unable or unwilling to extend the annual training of the *whole of the active militia, I would urge that the numbers trained annually be reduced so far as may be necessary to secure for those that are trained the 'time requisite to make them fairly efficient soldiers in discipline, field training and the use of their arms.
This is very startling perhaps with regard to the length of time, and I am inclined to

think that it would be difficult to make the period so long, hut I think that three weeks altogether, from the time the men leave, would give a period that would very much improve the capabilities of the soldiers.
The general speaks equally high of the city corps but recommend that they should be compelled every year to assemble in camp so as to enable them to get a knowledge of camp life-to learn how to shoot, to learn field practice and other things. Now comes a recommendation, which I consider most important, and which shows how thoroughly the general has, in a most common sense way reviewed the whole situation. We all know that the number of active militia we have would amount to very little, even if mustered in full force, should we get. into war, and he therefore takes up the question of reserves and divides that into two branches. I am going to trouble the House with reading his whole proposition, which shows that the cost of having reserves to fill the ranks or enlarge the force would not amount to anything very considerable. He writes as follows :- (
(21.) In the existing organization of the military forces of the Dominion two defects are very conspicuous ; they are:
(1.) That with the exception of the more recently raised units, viz., Field Companies of Engineers, Companies of the Army Service Corps and the Field Hospitals and Bearer Companies, there are no war establishments prescribed for the fighting troops. .
(2.) That even were such establishments prescribed, no practical machinery exists for raising regiments, batteries and battalions from a peace to a war footing.
The first of these is a comparatively simple matter to be dealt, with by regulations which I purpose to submit, but the second is a very much more important question, demanding most serious consideration and possibly special legislation. The units of the active militia as they now stand in the establishment lists cannot be taken seriously in any scheme for the defence of Canadian territory. Our regiments of eight companies number 306 rank and file, equivalent on a war footing to a little over two companies, and when we come down to tile so-called 'regiments' of four companies they practically only amount to one company for fighting purposes ; thus our existing system only provides us with the nuclei of armed porees that must be capable of expansion to render them efficient units in war. The problem to be faced is how to devise a practical scheme for rapidly raising our units to whatever may be prescribed as then- war strength, with the least possible disturbance of existing conditions, but one thing is very clear that sooner or later it has to be done,^ if our militia is to be regarded as a truly efficient defence for Canadian soil.
It would not be possible here to enter into all the details that would require to be provided for in the organization of reserves for the active militia, but the following is a brief statement of the lines upon which I believe it would be practicable to proceed under the powers conferred by the Militia Act.
(a.) That for every squadron, battery or company of the active militia there be raised from
the first and second classes of the male population (sec. II) by ballot (sec. 12, (c.) an affiliated unit of 50 men.
(b.) That in time of peace such unit need not be called out for training, but each man must be a duly registered member of a Civilian Rifle Club and must produce, when called upon, a certificate that he has fired his annual allowance of ammunition, under some penalty to be legally prescribed.
(c.) That the captain of the active unit shall be ' ipso facto ' the commanding officer of the reserve unit.
(d.) That every ntan enrolled in a reserve unit shall present himself at company head-quarters to be mustered once a year on a date to be specified by the D.O.C.
(a.) That reasonable travelling allowances for attending muster should be granted to any reservist residing beyond six miles from company head-quarters.
(f.) That non-commissioned officers and men who have served three years or upwards in the active militia be encouraged to voluntarily join the reserve of their own unit, receiving a small gratuity according to their rank on presenting themselves for annual muster.
The foregoing remarks apply more especially to rural corps which are organized on the squadron or company basis, but. a similar system would, with perhaps some modification, apply to urban units which are organized regimentally. The question of reserves, so far as personnel is concerned, presents no real difficulty, for the men are there and can be converted into fairly^ efficient troops in a few weeks. But it is quite a different matter when we come to deal with * material. Guns, rifles, saddlery, harness, equipment, clothing, tents and ammunition for the war establishments, &c., cannot be improvised at short notice, and I venture to urge that this is a matter of natural importance deserving of the most serious and careful consideration. No people are free from the sacred obligation co defend their own land from foreign aggression, and I contend that this can only be effectually and economically done by a business-like and gradual preparation in time of peace.
The expenditure on defence should be looked upon as the annual premium on a policy of national insurance, and as money well laid out in securing the independence and prosperity that can only be assured by 'the strong man armed.'
I think that that is a magnificent suggestion, simply and well put. The only objection I see to it Is the ballot, but under the circumstances and for the purpose of having a unit of that sort, X am quite prepared to adopt the general's proposition. But X wish to draw this distinction, I dp not want the ballot applied to the formation of companies and regiments, and to increase those for the purposes of drill, because that would add largely to our expenditure. But the suggestion is simple and effective. There shall be raised an affiliated unit of 50 men for every squadron, battery or company of the active militia. That would give a large increase at a very limited expense. The time taken is only what would be required for these men to go to headquarters once a year on a day to be mentioned and there present their certificates of the shooting accomplished, and if the men live more

250&
than six miles away their expenses are to be paid coming and going. Probably when the Minister of Militia comes to deal with the matter he will be able to tell us how much that would increase our 35,000 men.


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: About 75,000.


David Tisdale: That would add 400 to the eight company regiments and give a very respectable unit. I hope that all hon. members will seriously consider this suggestion and explain in their different localities that this is not a ballot in the ordinary sense. It is not unfair to those who will never go out, but who will benefit by the education given those men who deserve and by the expenses they have to go to. The greatest difficulty will be on the part of those who, owing to the nature of their business, cannot get leave of absence from their employers to go to camp. A much greater number of men will thus obtain a knowledge of how to handle the rifle and to shoot at long range, which is H difficult thing to learn, and on which we must depend for our success in case of war. Most of the fights in South Africa have been decided at long range. This suggestion shows considerable 'courage on the part of the general because it is rather repugnant to the spirit of our people to be drafted unless when the necessity of war comes upon us. This is rather a casting of lots to see who shall learn how to use the rifle and for how long a time, rather than a ballot, and the services of these men thus balloted will only be called upon in case of war. The fact of their going out for the purpose of^ getting a knowledge of shooting and obtaining this free ammunition does not make a man liable to turn out except in case the country is put on a war basis to meet some emergency.
_ Then we require the necessary material in the proper shape to enable us to wage war or to defend our country, and I will therefore read the general's recommendation with regard to magazines and stores. He says
(11) I have again to urge the necessity of providing magazine and store accommodation in western Canada.
Decentralization is admittedly one of the principles of up-to-date military administrations, but as yet in Canada we have made little advance in this direction, and as regards ammunition we have but one arsenal and reserve magazine, and that so located at an extremity of the country, as to combine the maximum of inconvenience in peace and of difficulty and danger in time of war. I hold it to be absolutely essential to the efficient defence of Canada that reserve magazines lie without delay provided for the supply of the troops in military districts Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 and 10 j and there is no military doubt that a second arsenal for the manufacture of ammunition is most necessary, the capacity of the existing arsenal working at full power scarcely exceeding that required to meet the annual requirements of the troops.


David Tisdale: As regards stores for equipment, the chief superintendent of stores urged in his report last year the provision of new and more extensive buildings at Kingston and Toronto, and in supporting his views I would strongly recommend that the Tete-de-Pont barracks at Kingston, which are very ill-suited for the accommodation of troops, be converted into a depot for clothing, equipment and warlike stores, other than ammunition, for which the existing,buildings with slight alterations would be very suitable. If tliis were done new barracks eouid be provided for the field artillery school, which I consider to be most necessary, as those now in occupation by the troops are deficient of most of the requirements of a modern barracks, and to bring them up to a reasonable degree of comfort and convenience would, even if practicable, cost so much as to render the construction of a modern and thoroughly sanitary barrack an economy in the end, and moreover, it would, I feel confident, make service in the field artillery much more popular.
While on this subject it is my duty to point out the need of 'mobilization stores' at the headquarters of military districts, in which should be held a complete equipment for each unit in the district, sufficient to enable it to take the field. These stores should be held in charge by the district officer commanding, and without such a distribution of warlike stores and a thorough decentralization of the store branch, rapid and successful mobilization for war is an absolute impossibility.
No matter how' well trained may be the personnel of an army its practical efficiency for war must he measured by the rapidity with which it can be brought to a war footing and placed in the field as a perfect fighting machine. This is simply a matter of administration on up-to-date lines in time of peace, and the first step necessary to this end is to locate the necessary material where it is required for issue to the troops, and thus avoid a hurried distribution with, as a rule, confusion and miscarriage, siiould the emergency arise.
I venture to hope that the great importance of this feature in military administration may commend it to earnest consideration, and that the provision of a western reserve magazine, and, if possible, a secondary arsenal may be provided at the earliest practicable date.
While on this subject, I wish to call the-attention of the minister to the report of the superintendent of the Dominion arsenal or cartridge factory. He says :
On different occasions, it has been proposed, by well-meaning but misinformed persons, that another cartridge factory should he erected in the w'estein part of the Dominion. It may be well to explain that our present establishment is equal to meeting all actual requirements, and that orders received are so small it is just possible to keep together an effective working staff. A division cf the work, by erecting another factory, would mean starvation and disaster to both. The strategical reasons urged against ihe situation of this arsenal are not well grounded.
I am glad to say the minister is already committed in his opinion, and it agrees with that of the general, that it is almost indispensable that we should have a western arsenal at the very first possible moment. The superintendent of the factory seems to disagree with both the minister and the general. But I will not take up the time of

the House with giving the reasons for a change in addition to the fact of our one arsenal being so far east. We have had that subject discussed, and any lion, gentleman who wishes to follow it up should consult 'Hansard' of 1900, pages 8320 and 8325, and ' Hansard ' of 1901, page 3786. In those discussions there was a concurrence of opinion in favour of the proposal which the general so strongly advocated. And the minister promised to look into the matter carefully at the earliest possible moment. Not only do we want an additional arsenal in western Ontario, but the time will come- and the sooner the better, finances allowing-when we should have one in Manitoba and one in the far west. Let me say, while this is in my mind, that if we have to call out the militia on a war footing it will be a very sudden call, and we shall have to face a mighty force, for our frontier is so long that its defence will always be a serious matter. Therefore, nothing should be left undone, in my opinion, that will improve our position.
Now, one more quotation from the general and I am done. This I give to show how careful and exhaustive has been his consideration of these matters, yet how simple and complete his recommendation. This relates to armouries, and the general recommends a new departure, with which, I must say, so far as my judgment goes, I am in hearty accord :
I have given much thought to the question of whether rural corps should be provided with central armouries, and having consulted all the district officers commanding I have come to the conclusion that the 'company armoury' is more suited to the conditions under which our rural militia is organized.
It is of course obvious that arms and equipment are better cared for, as a rule, in a central armoury, but this is, I conceive, the only important argument in its favour. On the other hand, to deprive the captains of their arms tends to lessen their interest in their companies, and deprives the non-commissioned officers and men of any opportunity of drilling or rifle shooting in the country hamlets and districts, for it can scarcely be expected that people will take much pride or interest in their local company which they never see. I have also observed that where rural regiments have been provided with central armouries, there is a decided leaning on the part of commanding officers to gradually convert their commands into city corps, to the very great detriment of the service, for, however good the city regiments may be, the bulk of our defence force must be the hardy men of our rural units, and anything which has a possibility or weakening that portion of the active militia is, in my opinion, greatly to be deprecated.
I, therefore, recommend that 'central armouries' should cease to be provided for rural regiments, and that, in their stead, plain substantial buildings should be hired, as at present, for company armouries at the company headquarters.
Now, with the permission of the comnnaee, having dealt with the report and and having read some important extracts from it, I will pass from it with one suggestion. I
think it will well pay every member of this House to get this excellent report and read it, especially that part of it wherein he deals with the questions of which I have given you a brief view. I propose now to give you briefly my views on the position of militia affairs in this coutry. Now what do we require for defensive purposes ? We require men, training, instruction, arms, supplies and ammunition. What have we noiv ? We have any number of men of the very best sort. I have explained to you what we have in the way of instruction and training. I think the instructions for the officers is ample. I wish to ask the Minister of Militia and Defence to take into, his serious consideration one point with regard to the Royal Military College, and seeing to it that the General's recommendation is carried out, that the young men we educate so well there shall be compelled to serve a certain time, to make arrangements ahead, and if they are not willing to do that, then let them get that sort of military training at their own expense. While it is all right to send ns many as we can, and that is only a limited number, to Great Britain, to enter the regular army, yet we need them more here. If the young gentlemen who go there understood that it was a part of the curriculum, if I may use that word, that they should serve afterwards for a certain time in some of the companies, they would become efficient officers. In that way I think the General's suggestion is well worthy of consideration. If we cannot get our young men, cctfning from the class they do, to take that interest in their own country,
I for my part would back up the abolition of that institution, which is a point of his recommendation. Surely if they have the spirit to go there and spend time there, they ought to be willing to devote some of their time, subsequently to serving in the companies, and I am sure that one of the great difficulties the Minister of Militia and Defence finds is in getting, qualified officers who are willing to serve. Then as to the camp of instruction, we all know its usefulness. We have now the best arms, clothing and supplies, and a considerable amount of ammunition, and when we come to the estimates, I shall inquire from the minister, and in case I should not be here, I would like some other gentleman to ask the Minister of Militia and Defence to present a statement to this House, showing what ammunition he 'has got, and where it is located.


Mr.   ROCIIB@Halifax: Will the hon. gentleman permit me to ask him a question ? What arms have we at present in the country ?


David Tisdale: I cannot tell you how many ; but I know that the improved rifle is sufficient for the soldiers that drill. The minister can tell.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 40,000 stand.


David Tisdale: Just enough for the force. Well, I do not urge hasty action In regard to that point, for this reason, that I understand evolutions are going on all the time in regard to the British arms. When we get the proper kind of arms we ought to have a reserve supply at the different headquarters. And so with regard to what the General says about clothing and supplies, and more especially ammunition. Rifles and men are of no use without ammunition ; and we want it distributed so that we can always get it, in case any internal disturbance should arise, but more especially if we are ever attacked from outside. Now wliat does the General suggest ? As I read his suggestion, he proposes, with our present force, calling for no more oflicers, calling for no more money, to put it on a complete war footing. I think this suggestion is worthy of a gentleman who is worthy to command as Major General any colony of the empire, and especially Canada ; and I hope the minister will give it his serious attention. I hope he will do more, that he will have the courage to act upon some of these suggestions, because it requires a certain amount of courage to ask the Minister of Finance for extra money for the militia. But these are growing times, we are told, and if they are, let us take what we want with no niggard hand as long as we are satisfied that it will be well used, as I think it will, in the defence of this country. The men liable under the Militia Act can be mobilized in no other way, and if the time comes it would give us a very respectable force ready to our hand. The General also recommends more days of drill. Well, that is a difficulty too, but I never knew a time in the history of Canada, or of the empire, when this suggestion would be more likely to be accepted in a proper spirit, and that arrangements should be made for an additional amount of training. The decentralization that he speaks of-I am sure the Minister of Militia and Defence will go with him in regard to that. It scarcely requires argument, it simply means that the supply of arms and the organization of the men shall be in such shape that you have not got to go to headquarters for everything, that you can get everything to your hand, and can utilize it in the field at once, and at proper points, with the proper quota of men armed and supplied with ammunition ; for we already have the men, the world has no men superior to our Canadian boys in my opinion.
I do not know that I have anything more to say. I shall be glad if what I have said will induce the hon. gentlemen who are members of this great legislative body to pay more attention to this subject. We have a country second to none in the world, with the same amount of population, with undeveloped resources sufficient for a hundred millions of people. And the time will come fast now, we see it coming, when the possibilities of Canada and the capabilities of Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).
Canada will attract world wide attention. Our great cousins to the south at last have wakened up to the knowledge of it, and good men, and true men, and many men, are coming here, and are taking advantage of it. Let me say that I have visited many parts of the -west in my younger days, and sometimes in my older days, and there was no place where I liked to go better than in the wilds of those far off countries. There are hundreds of thousands of men. in those far western states (that used to be territories) who -will make the best sort of pioneers, and we have this great class to draw upon. You have no conception of the hardships of their lives,| because, west of the Missouri river, there is only about 10 per cent of arable land to supply the wants of this vast number of people. These eastern states that we are drawing from now were the richest states of the union, but the people inhabiting them have discovered the wonderful richness of the vast plains and valleys bordering the great rivers of our western country, and they are seeking homesteads there. I will tell hon. gentlemen the reason why these people will become good citizens. They are the kind of men who do not like to live in a country where they do not vote and so that they may exercise the rights of citizenship they will take the oath of allegiance. When they come in under our institutions they will be surprised and delighted to find that our institutions are truly democratic and that our administration of the law is as strict against the rich man as against the poor one. They will quickly lose any affinity with the country from which they come and like the rest of us they wilii become good, sound, loyal, British subjects.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. F. W. Borden).: ' Clothing- and Stores.' It is very desirable that the executive shall have this power, ll is impossible for me to say at this moment what amount of money should be used for annual drill and what amount might be more profitably used for the extensive proposals which we are making with reference to the teaching of rifle shooting. In view of the explanations of the object I have in view, I am sure the House will be prepared to give this additional elasticity to the vote for the purposes of annual drill. I may say that I believe that this can be done with little or no increase in the amount of money which we have been expending upon annual drill.
I propose in the future to take advantage of the discovery which has recently been made in connection with the cartridge factory of a cheap form of cartridge which can be manufactured at a very low price and which is safe to be used almost anywhere-it does not require the expensive rifle ranges which it is necessary to have when using ammunition of full strength. I would propose in the future that no man shall be taken on the force as a recruit until he had been tried with the rifle to see whether he showed any reasonable possibility of becoming a useful soldier. In this way we will give new interest to the force; we will bring into it a class of men who mean business, and we will exclude from it a most undesirable class of which a considerable number now attend the annual camps.
My hon. friend (Mr. Tisdale) discussed the question of the construction of another arsenal in Canada, and he has referred to some statements which were made during former sessions. I am quite prepared to stand by what I said in the past; That no doubt the day is near at hand, if it has not already come, when we should at least have one other arsenal situated in a more central position in this country. I may say to the House, however, that we are now engaged in increasing enormously the capacity of the arsenal at Quebec, so that the output after a year hence will be four times what it is now. Instead of an annual output of perhaps 2,000,000 a year, we shall then have an annual output of 6,000,000 or
7.000.	000 rounds a year, and that, mark you, working at only an eight hour .basis. It would practically mean that we will have an arsenal at Quebec at which 18,000,000 or
20.000.	000 cartridges can be manufactured
working full time. What we really need more just now than an additional arsenal is two or three additional magazines in which to store our cartridges. As they are manufactured at Quebec they can be moved westward to convenient points for storage in these magazines. My hon. friend has asked me to state what amount of ammunition we have on hand


David Tisdale: And where it is ?


Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).: 


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That question was asked last year by the late member for York (Mr. Wallace), and I then stated that I thought there were reasons why It was undesirable to make a public statement as to that, but I will give the information privately-


Some hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I still think so, but I shall tell any hon. gentleman in the House who comes to me and wants the information. Of course we have a considerable quantity at Toronto; we have a sufficient quantity at Kingston, and we have a considerable quantity at London. My hon. friend (Mr. Tisdale) said that he thought that some time very soon there should be even a third arsenal in our great North-west. I would hardly go that far. I think something of the kind might be considered as to British Columbia, but in case of a war the question of holding the intermediate country between the west and the east might be so doubtful as to render it undesirable to place a cartridge factory there which might be captured by the enemy and turned against us. However, that is a matter more particularly for the consideration of military men.


David Tisdale: Give them a magazine there in the meantime.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, I think so. In this connection I might refer to the question of arms, a most pertinent one. My hon. friend has said that we have the men, but unfortunately we have not the arms, which is quite true. We have a very small number relatively to the number of men who could be enlisted ; but the House I am sure will be glad to learn that we are taking means to supply that want, and that we hope within a short time to have in operation within Canada a factory which will turn out from 12,000 to 15,000 stand of rifles each year if required, and which, working full time day and night, could turn out more than double that number.


David Tisdale: Where is it to be situated ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is not settled yet, but it will be probably near the present arsenal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that the Ross Company which is being incorporated that you refer to ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, the Sir Charles Ross rifle. I may say that that rifle was some months ago placed in the hands of a committee composed of Colonel Otter, Colonel Hughes, Colonel Anderson, Colonel Gibson, and one or two others, who spent a great deal of time, with the assistance of the staff at headquarters, and of an expert, Major Gaudet, who is in charge of the cartridge

factory at Quebec, in testing the rifle. They sent in a report to the government which was favourable- to the rifle, and on the strength of that report it has been adopted.


John Graham Haggart: Does it use the ordinary ammunition ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The same exactly, and In the contract which will be entered into with Sir Charles Ross provision will be made that in case we desire to change the rifle, or in case any discovery is made, he will, on receiving notice, manufacture such a rifle as the department may require.
Another matter which has been referred to by my hon. friend and by the General, and in which I agree with both, is the question of distributing the rifles we now have to the rural militia. When I came into office, I found, as I have explained here before, that the General who was here at the time my hon. friend was in office, had recommended very strongly that these rifles should not be distributed until central armouries were constructed, on the ground that the rifle was a very sensitive weapon, and must have the care of an armourer. It has been sufficiently proved, I think, by what has taken place in South Africa, that it is not such a delicate weapon, for it has stood -the test very well. I doubt if any rifle could have stood the test better than the Lee-Enfield or the Lee-Metford has done. Therefore the Major General has recommended that the rifles be at once distributed, and. that the old system of company armouries under proper inspection, more frequent than in the past, be continued ; and on the strength of that recommendation, instructions have been given that these rifles be at once issued and the old rifles called in. I think this will be very satisfactory news to the militia all over the country. I think it is a step in the right direction, and I am very sorry we did not take it before.
I do not know that there are many other points of importance to which my hon. friend referred, and I will bring my remarks to a close by saying that from my experience during the five years I have been in office, I think it is possible for us to have in this country a very effective defensive force at an expenditure very little in excess of that which we are making at the present time. Without repeating what 1 have said as to the methods we propose to take in the future in recruiting men for the active militia, I may say that, along the lines of interesting the citizens of the country in rifle shooting, and bringing them into sympathy with the militia by giving them something practical to do, I believe that, without any increase of expenditure at all we can enormously increase the interest and bring in thousands of young men who will be ready and properly equipped, if the _ unfortunate time ever occurs, to defend our country. What we want to have, always
ready, always at hand, is an effective staff. We want an effective headquarters staff. We want the machinery ready to be set in motion. We want, as my hon. friend has said, decentralization to the extent at any rate of having not only an effective headquarters staff, but effective district staffs, ready to act immediately when called upon. We want officers-educated, well-trained officers ; and I approve entirely of the suggestions which the General makes, that we should insist in the future upon a higher grade of education ; that we should apply higher tests to the officers, making them pass more severe examinations. In that way we are now adding every year to our reserve of officers, our list of unattached officers, men who have gone out by the system we adopted a few years ago of limiting the term of service for officers. The colonel of a regiment goes out after five years; the next below him steps up and takes his place, and so on. There is a step up for every man in the regiment. That very fact has given additional zest and interest to the militia of the country. A man joining to-day, even at the bottom of the list, knows that some day in the not very distant future he will have a chance of getting to the top if he is a young man. Then, the old men who go out are not lost to the militia. They go on the reserve or unattached list and there remain ; and I think we should take some means, as we are doing, to keep these men in touch with the militia by giving them something to do. In this way we are increasing every year the number of trained and educated officers whom we have at our disposal. -We have a fairly equipped staff with all the branches that are required for an army in the field, at headquarters. We have organized here a medical army corps, to which the general refers in the highest terms, and to which my hon. friend did not refer, although it is worthy of passing notice. I believe that we have here a medical army service corps second to none in the world. That was shown the other day in South Africa. Our field hospital corps had scarcely landed when it was put to the most severe test which could be applied to any such organization, and I had the satisfaction of receiving a cablegram from Col. Evans stating that it had acquitted itself with the greatest possible credit. We are organizing now an army service corps. We have an officer in England to-day, Col. Big-gar, who is taking a course of study there, who has had experience in South Africa, and who will return in a few months fully able to organize, from one end of the country to the other, that most important branch of the service. I repeat that with all these important branches fairly organized at headquarters and in the districts, with a very large number of officers ready to be called upon at any moment, and with the precautions we are now taking to edu-

cate our men in the use of the rifle, I believe that we shall have in the very near future, a force which will be amply sufficient to protect this country against any ordinary trouble from within and, with the aid of the mother country, do its part in defending Canada from any attack from without.
I do not know that I have anything to add, but as the items go through I shall be most happy to give any information regarding any details.
At six o'clock committee took recess.
After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. MACLAREN (Huntingdon).: In the remarks I have to make, Mr. Chairman, I wish to discuss the militia, more particularly as it concerns my own particular district. We have a frontier in the county of Huntingdon, adjoining the state of New York of some seventy miles. In 1802-3, as stated by my hon. friend from South Norfolk (Hon. Mr. Tisdale), quite an impetus was given the volunteer movement throughout the Dominion. The fever then ran high in Huntingdon as well as in many other parts of the Dominion, and we had a very good force of volunteer militia raised op the frontier at that time. In the county of Huntingdon we had thirteen companies of fifty-five men each which, in a population of 14,000. or 15,000, would give about a company to each 1,000 of the population. That, it will he admitted, was a very fair representation of the military spirit of that day. I was much pleased with the remarks of the hon. member for Haldimand and Monck (Mr. Thompson) in connection with the militia estimates last year. He proved to the House that he has given this question considerable study, and from his experience and study was in a position to speak with a good deal of authority on it. I have also had some experience in the matter. I joined the volunteers as a private in 1863, and served in the militia from that date until 1899-a period of twenty-six years. During the first four years I served as private and sergeant and was sergeant-major of a provisional regiment during the Fenian troubles of 1866. In the fall of 1866 the fiftieth battalion was formed, of which I was adjutant and drill instructor, and in 1889 I retired with the brevet rank of major. I have always taken a great deal of interest in the militia, and am therefore in a position to speak with some knowledge of the subject. As I look around the House this afternoon, I could not help thinking that if the number of members present was any indication of the military ardour of this Dominion, that spirit must be at a pretty low ebb. I counted some forty members present out of 200, and it seemed to me that if a similar spirit prevails in the country, there is not much hope of a very strong militia force being kept up. There is always a good deal of enthusiasm about Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).
these matters when they are new. I remember that in my own county, no matter what work had to be -done on the farm, we use to turn out in the evenings to attend drill, and that spirit was kept up pretty well in that part of the country until 1866, in which year we were out on active service for some months in connection with the Fenian troubles. In 1870 there were again rumours of a renewed attack from across the line, when we were again called out and had the good fortune as I suppose I may call it-to have a little brush with the Fenians at Trout river, so that we are privileged to have ' Trout river ' on our colours. After that there were still talk of our friends opposite coming across the border, and our military spirit was kept up pretty well until 1877-8, when our military ardour seemed to cool off very much, and during the last few years I was connected with the battalion we had considerable difficulty in keeping the force up to such a position as we would have liked. I think we had the proper kind of men in that county and have them still. Out of fifty-five men in the company to which I belonged thirty-two were six foot and over, and while tall men may not be any better soldiers than short men, still they look better in the ranks. We have the same kind of men there now but they do not join our volunteer force.	[DOT]
Now, there are several reasons for that. I do not intend to deal with this question in the abstract, but simply to speak of matters as 1 find them in our own part of the country. We had in our county, as 1 say, the 50th and 51st-eight companies in each battalion. They do not all come from our county, but some from the adjoining county of Chateauguay. We had thirteen companies and one troop of cavalry in the county of Huntingdon. Since the time I spoke of, 1877 or 1878, it has seemed almost impossible to get the proper kind of men to join the volunteers or to remain in the ranks. The consequence is that the companies have fallen away until, at the last camp, I think out of sixteen original companies it was found impossible to get four full companies to go to camp at Laprairie. As I said, one of the reasons which has militated against securing proper recruits and which you may think is not a very commendable one-is that, many o f our people do not see the great necessity for keeping up the militia force. I think they are as loyal as the people in any other part of the Dominion. I think they would be as ready to turn out in the defence of their country as the people in any other part of the Dominion. But we are a practical people in the county of Huntingdon, and a people who like to attend to our work; and a good many do not see the necessity of keeping up the force and spending time and money in going to camp year after year. I may say that we never had as good a force in the county of Huntingdon as when we had drill at our company

headquarters. That may not be practicable now, but if it were practicable,
I believe that we could get the same class of men into the force as we had from 1863 to 1875. And here again I might say that the class of men we have had turning out to camp during the last ten or fifteen years is not the class of men upon whom we would have to rely in case they were needed for the defence of the country. As I have .iust said, we are an agricultural county, and our people somewhat object to letting their sons go-and the sons also object to going-to camp probably during the latter part of June or the beginning of July, just at the busy season of the year. Another feeling that a good many people have is that they do not think it is possible to make soldiers out of boys in twelve days. You know how business is done at the camp. It takes a day to go and a day to come home. Then there is Sunday, and, generally, one or two rainy days. My experience is that, out of the twelve days in camp, you never get more than seven or eight days of actual work. I think the present Minister of Militia is improving the matter very much in this direction. At the same time, I never could see the sense of trying in ten or twelve days in a year to make Tommies out of our boys.
The one great objection to the way the militia was conducted in the past was the irrational dress the boys were expected to wear. I believe that that has been improved; but, not having kept up an intimate knowledge of the force, I cannot speak definitely on this subject. I suppose all will agree with me when I say that there is no more independent class of people than our farmers' sons. The artisans in cities, operatives in factories, or clerks in stores, are under some sort of discipline and restraint, but that is unknown to the boys on the farm. You know how a young man rigs himself up when lie is going to work on a hot day in the latter part of June. He puts on as little clothes as he can decently wear. A pair of trousers, a shirt, a broad straw hat, and a pair of shoes, that is about all. If he is warm, he will roll up .his shirt sleeves and open the collar. Suppose one of these lads goes into camp. He is taken to headquarters-I am speaking of the olden times-and given a pair of woollen trousers and a red tunic with cloth as thick as a board. For fear it would not be warm enough, the tunic is lined with nice soft flannel. This tunic is buttoned up to the neck. The lad wears a two-inch belt around his waist and a three-inch strap over his shoulders with a great pouch hanging over his hip. When it comes to inspection day and he is in full dress, he has a hideous knapsack on his back, on top of which is placed a tin canteen with an oil cloth cover. Then he has a small round woollen cap stuck on the top of his head, and now he is complete. . In that guise he is taken to camp. Now, fortunately for me,
when in camp I always had the privilege of riding on horseback. But I have pitied these young men when on inspection on a very hot day, when they must be in full dress or heavy marching order with knapsack and all the other accessories. These boys were taken out at ten o'clock in the morning. They marched, perhaps for a mile or two, to some large field, where the inspection was to be held. They would be lined up, and about twelve the general would come, a feu de joie would be fired, and then these boys were marched back into camp at half past one or two o'clock, having been with this hideous rig on for three or four hours. And I have heard these boys in their tents cursing the rules that made these things necessary and swearing that they would never come to camp again. And very often they did not go-and I for one do not blame them for it.
I believe there has been an improvement in thfese respects, but that was one great objection to our militia system. And. here let me say that I do not know whether it is the best thing to have an officer of the British army at the head of our militia force. I may be radical in that, but I think that any officer in the British army who takes our boys for twelve days and thinks he is going to put them on the footing of British soldiers, is mak- * ing a mistake. They are learning a lesson in South Africa. A map may not be able to put his heels together, face, salute and do all that sort of thing, but if he can ride, and shoot straight. I would not care whether he had a red coat on or what he wore. Too 'much time has been spent in connection with our militia, in trying to mould the boys on the model of soldiers of the British army. I am glad to see that the department is getting rid of this paraphernalia and dressing the men in khaki suits with bandoliers. I never could see the necessity of subjecting the volunteers of our Dominion to the hardship of wearing such an outfit when performing their annual drill. I have seen the foreheads and ears of the men blistered so badly that you could see traces of it for some time after they returned to their homes, on account of the change from the straw hat they generally wore to the woollen cap. If more common sense were used in connection with our militia we should have a better service. What I say is, generally speaking, true of the whole frontier of the province of Quebec. There is not an effective battalion on the frontier, except the one with its headquarters at Sherbrooke. I am not speaking to find fault but simply to set forth matters as they are in my own-locality. But after what I have said it will be thought that I ought to suggest some remedy for this difficulty. Well, of course, one of the changes that would suit us- whether the department would regard it as practicable or not, would be to have more drill at home and less in camp. Any one who is acquainted with military matters

knows that if a man is competent in squad and company drill he will soon be able to pick up battalion and brigade drill, because battalion and brigade drill is only an enlarging of what he has already learned. I think that the most effective thing in our locality would be a few mounted corps. We have as good men as we had in 1866 and 1870, and we have the horses. If a volunteer force is necessary at all-and I am not going to discuss that phase of the question-it should be necessary on the frontier. As I have already stated, we have sixty miles of a frontier in the county of Huntingdon with only an imaginary line between our county and the United States ; and, if it is this country we fear, surely it is important that we should have a force near the frontier. If we had four squadrons of mounted troops, they could probably be made an effective force. Whether they would [DOT] object to going into camp or not, I do not know, but I know that that was one of the great difficulties .ip connection with our volunteer system-the difficulty of getting men to go to camp. Latterly, captains forming companies were obliged to take in men who were not suitable for the service, and those of the most desirable class who might have gone were not willing to go into camp with the majority of those whom the captains had to accept. The consequence is that the volunteer militia force of the frontier not only in the county of Huntingdon, but throughout the eastern townships, is practically only upon paper.
So much so that our 16 companies, as I said before, have now been reduced to 4 companies, and they are only the bones of companies. I understand if we want to keep up a militia system we must at least have arms and the nucleus of a force in the country. But I do not see any way of adapting ourselves to the circumstances, so far as we are concerned, except by getting up mounted troops, squadrons of mounted infantry, or something of that kind. I think myself, there might be some system adopted by which we could go into camp not more than once in three years, witli part of the drill done at home and part in camp. But one great objection is the going to camp, and there is the feeling that they do not get the instruction in camp which they think they ought to get for the time that the camp continues. Whether our people would be willing to remain longer in camp, I am not prepared to say ; but my experience has been that in 12 days in camp you do not get more, at the outside, than 7 days of actual work ; and to try to make British soldiers, or soldiers at all, out of boys in about 7 days drill out of 365, is a difficult thing to do, and of course you can understand that they cannot be very effective.
Another thing that I am pleased to see is that they are taking up the practice of I'ifle shooting more generally. Hide shooting Mr. MACLAREN (Huntingdon).
at our camps has been a very perfunctory performance, there was not much attention paid to it, and I do not think that there was tlie good result from It that there should be. One of the difficulties of course in new places is that of getting proper butts, so that we could use with safety the new rifles how in use.
Our county is the most western in the province of Quebec, and there are not many corps in our vicinity, and we do not feel able to erect suitable butts to use the modern rifles now in use, as they carry to such a great distance. With the old Snider-Enfield rifles not nearly such expensive butts were necessary.
I was pleased to hear the minister state this afternoon that they were making a new kind of ammunition which would not be so dangerous as the other and which was costing less. But as I stated before, if an effective force is to be kept up on the frontier, on our frontier at least, something else is necessary to be done. I do not know what it should be. Of course one of the objections is the pay, although that is not the main objection. Of course we would like to receive larger pay than we have been receiving. although that is a paltry matter. But, if it is felt there is a necessity, and that ' seems to be the feeling of the House, that a large volunteer force should be kept up in this Dominion, so far as our frontier is concerned, there will have to be some new means devised, because we are, practically speaking, without any militia force on our frontier at the present time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would like to say a few words with reference to some remarks of the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Maclaren). He says that if the number of members in the House during this discussion is to be taken as a pleasure of the military enthusiasm of the country, it must be very low. Well, in my judgment it cannot in any sense be taken as an evidence of the military ardour of our people.
I think there is another explanation for the lack of interest among the members.
I have been in this House, for some years, and I have noticed that whenever members of this House, who are not connected with any of the military organizations, venture to express an opinion or take part in the discussion on votes in the estimates for military purposes, the few colonels that are in the House, or other military men, rather sneer at them as if they were doing something they had no right to do. I have seen that very frequently in this House, until many members who would like to say something refrain from doing so because they might be regarded as impertinent. Now, I never believed, nor do I believe to-day, that it is the part of wisdom for non-military men to take no part in these discussions. Whether a member of this House might be regarded as an expert in the line which he



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attempts to discuss or not, it is equally liis duty to take part in that discussion, and to bring to bear upon it such knowledge and information as he has of the subject. For after all, it is only in the consensus of opinions that are given in this House that .the opinion of the country can be ascertained by those who, for the time being, are charged with the responsibilities of government. For that reason I have not always refrained from taking part in the discussion of military or any other questions because of a timid feeling that others might think it was improper for me to do so.
People do not see the necessity of keeping up the force, the hon. gentleman said. Well,
I believe there is a good deal in that. But I have always thought that if there is one thing more than another that stimulates ambition and attracts people's attention to military matters, it is a taste of actual war. If the hon. gentleman thinks back for a time he will remember the circumstances of 1866.
I remember them very distinctly, for we had a little excitement in the part of the *country where I lived, and a great many men joined the force at that time. He will remember that the military spirit was very low at that time ; but so soon as the announcement was made through the press, or by telegram, that the country was actually invaded, there was suddenly aroused a military spirit that was unknown before, and the result was that, although there was no preparation for war, every person seemed to be desirous to take up arms and take part in the defence of the country. Although the military operations were very short, still that invasion gave a stimulus to the military activity of the country that continued for a good many years ; and because after a while there was nothing to keep up the attention, public interest in military affairs began to die out again, but how soon did it reappear when we began to enlist men for the South African contingent. Why is it that to-day we see the military spirit and the military enthusiasm so .awakened in the Dominion of Canada. It is on account of the taste of war that our people have had, and the evidence that has been brought to our senses of the necessity of the defence of the British Empire even in the Dominion of Canada. That has aroused the military spirit in every part of the country. Active military operations and a taste of war are the greatest; incentives to generate and keep up the military life in the country. Now, I believe it has done us a great deal of good, because at this stage in our national life we are not only taking on the responsibilities of nationhood, but we are developing a national spirit very rapidly. But heretofore we have been somewhat behind the age in the matter of national defence. In the matter of providing, as we ought to do, for our military defence, we ought to be moving, pari passu, with our *development in every other line of national
life. When I speak of national life, I do not mean to confine it to the limited sphere of the Dominion, but as part and parcel of the British empire of which we are a very important part.
I believe I express the sentiment of the people of Canada when I say that they regretted to read in some of the morning papers that the present premier had practically refused to discuss with the Imperial government the question of Imperial defence. It was thought that it was something entirely out of keeping with the spirit of the age or the sentiments of the Canadian people, but I am quite sure that he gave offence to very many of his warm friends by that intimation. No doubt it was done with good intentions, but still it seemed to leave the impression upon the Canadian people that there was less of a desire than should have been displayed by the head of the government in Canada to seriously consider the important problem of national defence. Now, there are two lines in which national defence may be undertaken; first of all by the military force of the country, and, secondly, by a naval force. I think we have reached a time in the life of our country when we should begin to create something of a naval nucleus, but there is no possibility of accomplishing much, in my judgment, except after an earnest conference with the Imperial authorities, so that we might act in concert with them along that line, and to my mind, there could be no more opportune time than when the Coronation ceremonies are being carried on, and when all the representatives of the various colonial empires, as they may be called, are there, and are consulting with each other. The people regard this as an opportune time, above all others, in which a discussion may reasonably take place in regard to what lines may be profitably pursued for the purposes of military defence either in the military or naval lines. But, it left the impression on the minds of the Canadian people that the right hon. gentleman was not as much interested as he ought to be, holding the high position that he does in the Dominion of Canada, in defence of the empire when he refused even to discuss that question at the time when he goes to attend the Coronation ceremonies. A great many people believe that we are spending too much money for military purposes. A few years ago I thought so and I felt that there was no need of it, that we were creating a military spirit, that we were attracting attention to that line, that we were taking the people away from the peaceful and industrial pursuits of life and rather, inducing them to engage in the lazy pursuits of life, and that as ours was an industrial country, the more men you take away from the industrial pursuits the more you take away from the wealth of the country, but, we have all had such a lesson as has opened our eyes since then, and every one will admit that there is a great neces-
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sity of keeping pace with the onward march of progress in the military life of Canada. At the time we entered confederation, we agreed with the Imperial government that we would spend a certain amount of money annually for military purposes, in providing proper defences for the Dominion, and in providing a military force that would be available in time of need for the defence of the empire. We were expected to spend annually something like $2,000,000. It is only within the last two or three years that we have made any attempt to do it, but we are now doing something in the way of carrying out the spirit of that agreement. We are doing it on much more intelligent lines than heretofore, but I think there is a great deal of room for improvement yet in many lines in which this expenditure is going on, and that we might even go much farther with credit to ourselves and profit to the empire if we undertook to organize the nucleus of a naval defence as well as a military defence.
I am not going to say much about the expenditure of this money in these various lines, because I do not know enough about the subject to intelligently criticise it, or to say whether it is wise or unwise, but I have always thought that one of the urgent needs of the situation is to have a sufficient supply of arms of a modern type available at any time need might arise. You might mobilize your forces very rapidly, but you could not supply them with arms as rapidly as you could mobilize them. But if you had an available stock of arms and ammunition, it would be an easy matter to put men in the field and in a Short time they would become trained and drilled soldiers. I was glad to Hear the Minister of Militia and Defence (Hon. Mr. Borden) say this afternoon that we have a fairly good supply of arms. He did not give us an approximation as to the kind or number of the rifles we have, but I take it for granted that the rifle is of the best pattern available. He gave one reason why the government were rather chary about purchasing arms, which was the improvements going on from time to time and the urgent necessity of buying the very best. It seems to me that at some time in our lives we must reach something like perfection in the rifle that we use. I believe it is generally conceded that the rifle we have to-day is a very good weapon, and I think it should be supplied to the forces of the country in sufficient numbers to be available at any time for the needs of the country. I would also suggest to the lion, minister that the old and useless rifles might be supplied to cadet corps or cadet schools, and they might be used in other ways to stimulate military enthusiasm among the young and rising generation, because it is with these young men that we must supplement the forces we have in the field, and if you create a military spirit early in life, it will be easy to get men when you Mr. SPROULE.
require them to go to the front. I think there is something in what the lion, gentleman said in regard to the restraint which these young men are under when they are sent to the front. Our young men might be dressed in some way that would be much more comfortable for them and that they might be equipped so as to enable them the more easily to carry the accoutrements with which hey are supplied during the warmest t e of the summer, because that is a tin when they usually attend drill. Ther Aght be a style of clothing adopted beter suited to the climatic conditions and the work they have to do when they are taken out for their annual drill, than the clothing that is usually supplied to them. In my opinion, that would be a great improvement, because one of the complaints they usually make when they come back from drill is that their clothing is uncomfortable. I do not think there will be any great difficulty found in getting our young men to go out and attend drill. They regard it as very much in the nature of a pleasant holiday, but 1 have always thought the time of drill was much too short in order to give them any adequate instruction in the movements and duties that we desire to give them knowledge of. I think the suggestion made by the lion, minister is perhaps a good one, that if we cannot afford to give them two or three weeks in camp every year we ought to give them that amount of drill every two or three years.
I think military knowledge might also be promoted by company drill. I do not think we have enough company drill in the country. We have these companies all over the country, but they rarely meet at any time in the year except just before they are going to ' camp. A few days before they are going to camp they muster up their forces, and from that time until they are required to go out next year, there is little or nothing heard about them. They might perhaps meet a few days m the fail to do a little rifle shooting. We built some years ago expensive drill sheds and armouries and they have been allowed to rot away and -little if any use has been made of them.
I think we ought to have company drill from time to time. It is very important that these young men should be allowed to meet together within a radius of a few miles and have some rifle shooting. I have always thought that rifle shooting was one of the strongest attractions that a boy or a young man could have, and if you have more of that you will have more young men ambitious to go into the militia force, and as these young men are doing the duties of military men and experiencing the stern realities of war, their usefulness will be in proportion to their ability to shoot straight. It therefore becomes necessary to give them as much practice as possible in that line, so that in time of war they may be useful soldiers when you put them in the field.
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But, the practice now of giving them a few rounds of ammunition and only one or two days of practice reduces their value. It neither creates an incentive for the work nor does it make them experts. They should meet from month to month, and have their regular rifle practices, and ammunition should be served out to them in sufficient quantities to enable them to indulge in constant ripe practice. That is what they like, an( ,that is what makes them the best milita experts. '
Mr. I'OWLER. .iat is the present strength of the permanent force ?
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The number is limited to 1,000. The establishment is over 800 now.


Mr. FOWLER.: I understood it was about 600.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA* AND DEFENCE. The last figures I have are 805 men ;	152	non-commissioned officers
and 64 officers, making 1,021, including the officers. The strength may vary about 50 during the year.


George William Fowler: The militia list gives the number of officers as more than the minister stated. It seems to me that this permanent force is slightly top heavy. I notice by the militia list that there are four colonels ; fifteen lieut.-colonels, twenty majors, thirty-two captains and seven lieutenants. I understand of course that the permanent force is a sort of skeleton force intended to make a number of regiments out of in case of necessity, but the department appears to have been more kind to this branch of our military service than to the general militia. Take for example the district officer commanding. He has under his command any where from 3,000 to 5,000 men, but he is a lieut.-colonel almost in every case, whereas the permanent force of 800 men has no less than four full colonels and fifteen lieut.-colonels. It seems to be rather unfair to the district officers commanding, who are in many cases quite as competent and quite as deserving of high rank as are the men who happen to belong to the permanent force. I know of district officers who have been in the Northwest rebellion, and who have been outranked by officers far their junior in point of service, and not their superior in point of military ability. This is a matter which is deserving the attention of the minister. It seems to me that it is rather unfair to our general militia officers. I have understood that there was some objection to promoting the district officers on the part of the General Officer commanding, because it was felt that in case difficulty should occur the officers who would come from the Imperial service to command in Canada would not care to have our militia officers holding high rank. I hope that rumour is entirely unfounded, because the experience in South SO
Africa has shown that we have officers in Canada who are quite as well fitted for the positions which they occupy as are the Imperial officers. If that objection has been urged it should be removed at once.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am not aware that the General Officer commanding has made any statement of the kind ; he certainly has not to me. I have no objection however to state that there was an inquiry from the War Office to know to what extent it was proposed to utilize the power which parliament gave the executive two years ago, to appoint colonels. The answer that the government made upon my recommendation was that we proposed to follow the rule of the Imperial army with reference to the rank of colonel. However, the main point of the statement of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fowler), was : that we had in the permanent force, officers out of all proportion to the number of men. On the face of it that might appear to be a fair criticism, but I will remind the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fowler) of what he must know, being a military* man himself. We have in the permanent force the nucleus of what would be the Canadian army if vre were called upon to mobilize. We have in the permanent force every branch of the militia except the engineers. We have the two branches of artillery, field and garrison; the two branches of mounted troops, dragoons and mounted rifles, and we have the infantry. When the hon. gentleman takes into consideration that we have these five branches in the permanent force, he will not object to the number of officers. In fact I think wTe require more officers rather than less. As to the appointment of full colonels in the permanent force, I explained recently to the hon. gentleman from Victoria (Mr. Hughes) that most of these appointments were made as a result of the distinguished service these officers rendered in South Africa. Had it not been for the war in South Africa I fancy these promotions would not have been made. What the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fowler) said with reference to certain of the district officers not having been promoted has some force in it. It is quite true that at least one or two of the district officers served with distinction in the North-west rebellion. I have been at some pains to look at the records of that time, and I must say that the officers who served for the maintenance of the government of this country against rebellion, were not treated as they should have been. On considering the matter, I felt that it was very difficult to deal with it, it being so long ago, and that perhaps I had better leave it alone. I may say that I hope at an early date we shall be able to recommend that promotion to the position of colonel shall be given in the case of several district officers, and I hope also to some officers of the active militia.


George William Fowler: 1 understand that they place no limit on the number of officers they ask you to appoint ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, they simply asked the question, what we proposed to do.


George William Fowler: The argument with reference to the permanent officer applies to the district officer commanding, because he has under his command infantry, cavalry and artillery. AVhen the troops are in camp he is in charge of the field manoeuvres of a large mixed force, and therefore he should be a man who can command a brigade, and with sufficient military knowledge to entitle him to the highest position the department can confer. I think it would be a very good rule that no man should be placed in the position of district officer commanding who is not fitted to be a colonel, and that upon his promotion to that position he should be given that rank. To the lay mind these nice little distinctions do not amount to much; but to the military man, there is a wide gulf between lieutenant-colonel and full colonel; and it is rather annoying to an officer in command of a district to find men occupying very much inferior positions to his and yet his superiors in rank. I throw out the suggestion therefore, that these district officers, many of whom are superior men, should have this rank.	.
' The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE. I may say that all the promotions which have taken place have been made on the recommendation of the General Officer commanding. I have been very particular about that In fact, that matter must be left in his hands, he being a professional soldier and having large experience in such matters. I have discussed with the General the very point my hon. friend has raised, and I believe that within a short time the line he has indicated will be largely followed. I think there is a great deal of force in what he says, though I do not think the General will feel disposed to recommend, and I do not know that I would feel disposed to agree to it if he did, that all the district officers indiscriminately should receive the rank of full colonel, although several undoubtedly are entitled to it.


George William Fowler: My point was not that all the men in that position at present should receive the rank, but that no man should get the position unless he was fitted to receive that rank. It is difficult for an officer coming from England to ascertain in two or three years the fitness of the different officers ; and that raises the question whether it would not be well for us to have a Canadian officer in command rather than one from England. I do not propose to discuss that now, but that is my view of the question.


Frederick William Borden: 


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to ask the minister whether anything has been done with respect to a matter that was discussed two years ago very considerably, and also to some extent last year, that is, the organization of corps of mounted troops as a substitute for or in addition to the forces we have in Canada at the present time.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The organization of mounted corps to take the place of infantry has not been done to any great extent as yet, although in the district near or about Brandon and elsewhere in the North-west, I think there are four independent corps of mounted troops; in the city of Toronto a corps of mounted rifles has been organized; and in the province of Quebec the number of mounted troops is being increased. Outside of these districts, so far as I can remember, nothing has been done; but I am still of opinion that it ought to be done as rapidly as possible, and the General himself recommends in his report that in the case of rural corps we should substitute mounted rifles for infantry.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this pay and allowances for the whole force, or only for the permanent force ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The pay of the permanent force is really only $225,000. The other items are : Pay of the headquarters and district staff, $43,100; pay of the active militia attending schools of instruction, $45,000; allowances for drill instruction, care of arms, postage, stationery to the active militia, $75,000; guards of honour, etc., $4,000. These items are not chargeable to the permanent force, but to the militia.


George William Fowler: I notice an increase of $1,490. How is that figured out ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The increase is in the headquarters and district staff, and is made up as follows : Lodging allowance for the district officer commanding in districts 1 (London), 2 (Toronto), and 11-$400 to the first and $500 to each of the last two. Then, there is an increase of pay to the district officer commanding number two district of $455, and a decrease of $365 in district number eight.


George William Fowler: This lodging is where there is no barrack accommodation for the officers ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.
Annual drill and musketry, including clothing and stores, $520,000.


George William Fowler: I notice an increase in this item of $80,000, is it the intention to carry out the recommendation of the general commanding regarding extending the period of drill ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Although there appears to be an increase of $80,000, there will really be a decrease, because in the $440,000 for the vote for 1901-2 the supplementary estimates for this year are not included, and I shall ash for a further vote for the annual drill of $150,000, so that really there is a reduction instead of an increase ; I have lumped these votes together for the reason I mentioned this afternoon.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: One objection appears to me to be that the pay is too small. Throughout our country the officers are obliged to apply to the municipal councils to supplement the vote by twenty-five cents a day or as much as they can get. Some of the councils are imbued with the spirit of liberality and give it while others do not. If we are to keep up the military force at all, all the pay should come from the consolidated revenue, and it should be large enough to compensate the men for their lost time. It ought not to be necessary for the officers commanding battalions to go around the townships asking the township or county councils to supplement the small allowance of pay by a donation. If we gave a fair compensation there would be very much less trouble getting young men to join the ranks.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I quite agree that it is very undesirable at the last moment to have to solicit men to go to camp, but I think that that is due, to some extent, to the carelessness of the officers themselves in waiting until within two or three days, and sometimes until the very day before the camp and then rushing about to get men. I have no objection to an increase in the pay, but I think it might be given in this way as an inducement to give three years service. I would prefer having the pay increased during the second year and still further increased in the third year. Further than that, I believe that we shall succeed in awaking renewed interest in the militia by encouraging rifle shooting, and I hope that, with a large quantity of free ammunition1 each year, we shall be able to do that much more effectively than by an increase of pay from fifty cents to seventy-five cents.


George William Fowler: I am strongly in favour of the hon. minister's suggestion to increase the pay to those who continue in the service. We have no difficulty in the section I come from in getting men to go into camp, and, as the minister says, the difficulty is generally due to laxity on the part of officers in not attending to recruiting in time. You will get a much better class of men, if they do not join through the inducement of pay. The less of the mercenary class we get the better, and the greater will be the enthusiasm, and the more efficiently will the work be done. There is one improvement which would like to insist on, and that is to change 80J
the drill along the lines suggested by my hon. friend) from Huntingdon (Ml*. Maclaren). We have now a little too much parade, pipe clay and high collar business. We want more of the kind of drill that the Boers get in South Africa, and which has proved very effective, as some of our starched and pipe played British soldiers have found out to their cost. If we have more of that kind of drill-and I notice that this year in the camps at Sussex there was more of it-we would have greater efficiency in active service. We must get out of the old ruts, and in order to get good officers we require to make the service less expensive. We should have cheaper uniforms for the officers and get rid of the high collar and ' ha, ha ' business altogether, and come down to business. We will then have an effective force. If we were attacked from the outside we would have to resort to the same sort of tactics which have proved so effective in the case of the Boers. Let us have more drill along that line and make the men good rifle shots. Let us do away with the parade movement and all that sort of thing and make the drill more effective.


Mr. INGRAM.: I cannot speak from experience as a military man, but I have followed carefully the discussions on military matters during many years, and have come to the conclusion that it is very important. In looking over the reports of the superintendent of military stores I find that he draws the attention of the militia throughout the country to the fact that the Lee-Enfield rifles are liable to get out of repairs. Has the government taken any steps to correct that defect ?	[DOT]


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I believe that the parts of the Lee-Enfield rifle are not interchangeable, but it is equally true that each rifle being numbered, any part that is lost can be replaced. We have in our service very good armourers, educated specially for the work, and we propose, when the rifles are issued to all the rural battalions, to instruct those who are in charge of them that special and frequent inspections will be made to see that the rifles are properly cared for. Of course bonds have to be given by the officers for the safe keeping of these rifles, for the care of which they are paid out of the public fund.


Andrew B. Ingram: Take the contingent we sent from Canada to South Africa, did those armourers, engaged by the department, pay strict attention to the arms supplied to the different troops that went to that country ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think so.


Andrew B. Ingram: I have a document here, I which has not been furnished to me by any 1 officer of the department or any man in

connection with it, and in justice to the minister I shall read it so that he may say whether it is correct or not. It is a report from South Africa in connection with those soldiers that went on the ' Pomeranian,' and was written on March 22nd, 1900.


The MINISTER OP MILITIA DEFENCE.: Who wrote the report ?


Andrew B. Ingram: I do not know whether the report is true or false, but it is supposed to be signed by L. W. Herchmer, lieut.-colonel.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA DEFENCE.: Lieut.-Colonel Herchmer


Andrew B. Ingram: It is supposed to be signed by him. This is what he says :
h.owever. report that it is fortunate that there is no fighting, as our rifles are improperly sighted. I suspected this on hoard ship, as we had to fire almost off the target with Morris tubes. I got an armourer at Cape Town to inspect, and he reported that our back sights did not belong to the rifles and that at S00 yards they shot eight feet to the right. I reported this officially to the officer commanding the battalion and we had to march without new sights. To-day I am in receipt of a letter informing me that new sights are being furnished; but when we shall get them, or, on receipt, find an armourer to alter them, I cannot say.
I presume that this report has been sent to the department here, that is if it is a correct report. If that is the case, and if these rifles shoot eight feet to the right of the mark, the armourers could not have done their duty in inspecting them. It is a very important statement and should not go abroad uncontradicted if it is incorrect, as it would do a great injustice to the department that furnished these rifles.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Had the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ingram) taken the precaution to notify me that he was going to read this statement, I would have been ready to answer him. It is the first time I ever heard of it, however, and, of course, I cannot give a complete answer at the moment. But I would say that the rifles were purchased, I think, in 1895, under the late administration, and were inspected by the war office inspector. I believe they were properly inspected, and that they are just what they ought to be. I am not advised of any rifles in store here of the character mentioned in the report read by the hon. gentleman. No complaint of that kind has ever been made. But now that the hon. gentleman has mentioned the matter, I will make inquiry, and when an opportunity arises, I will give my hon. friend and the House an answer. It is, as he says, of course, a very important matter. It is rather singular, however, that this should be the only occasion when a complaint of this kind has ever been made. I cannot possibly understand it. The difficulty about the sights of the rifles might possibly have resulted from the sights being interchanged among rifles, but that is hardly


Andrew B. Ingram: likely. Colonel Otter and the different commanders have made elaborate reports as to what took place in South Africa, but, so far as I know there has been no mention of this matter.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would have been glad to consult the hon. minister, but this report came into my hands only a short time ago. There is another point. As I understand it, this government supplied the horses with the forage, etc., while in transport to South Africa. I do not know whether this government or the home government is responsible for supplying the forage in South Africa. But if the horses are treated as this report states, it is high time there should be a reform, not only in the treatment of the men but in the treatment of the horses as well. In his statement, which is evidently furnished by Lieut.-Colonel Herchemer, this is what is stated with regard to horses at Cape Town :
The forage was insufficient, particularly for horses just off ship and we had great difficulty in feeding our horses ; they did not gain at Cape Town
Other extracts from this report are as follows :
During the three days en route, the horses got oats and water, but no hay.
, We make from 10 to 18 miles per day, according to water which is very scarce, the whole country being at this season of the year a sandy waste without a blade of grass, relieved here and there with a few small bushes which the native animals consume. The country is entirely destitute of trees, except a few' willows, &c., near the dams and wells. All along this march our horses were under-fed.
The forage for the horses being again very short indeed, it appears impossible to get them filled up on the government rations ; if this could be done for several days running and the horses could get into condition, they would do, but under the present conditions, I have little hope of their doing much hard werk.
We had to leave 23 horses here, some with sore backs caused by poverty and lame, and about eight too poor to face the difficulties ahead. It i3 hardly likely these horses will ever be in fit condition again, as they do not get sufficient forage to build them up.
If the Imperial authorities are responsible for insufficient forage for the horses in South Africa, particularly on landing, it is high time that something should be done. The English authorities have recognized that the Canadian method of fighting the Boers-that is as mounted rifles-is the'most successful method. And. the success of that class of troops must depend entirely upon the good condition of the horses they ride. If it is true that forage was short even at the port of landing, it is nothing less than a disgrace to those who are responsible for it. I can understand that, at times, forage would be insufficient at a distance from a base of supplies, but not at the very port of landing. I do not say that this report is true, but if it is true it must have caused

a great deal of suffering to our soldiers. I am glad to see that a Canadian has been given the credit of showing General Kitchener the importance of having pack horses for carrying on operations in South Africa. That is a step in the right direction, one that will do credit to Canada and will assist in the success of British arms there. ' There are one or two other points in this report but they are of less importance, and I shall not deal with them. But those that I have mentioned, it seems to me, are very important.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: My hon. friend will remember, and the House will remember, that under the arrangement made with the Imperial authorities, the Canadian government has nothing whatever to do with the forage or rations after the arrival of the troops and horses in South Africa. That is the fact, and consequently we are not responsible. Of course, the case to which the hon. gentleman refers is a serious one, and I agree with him that if true, it Is quite inexplicable at a point so near the base of supplies. On the other hand, I would point out to the House that Lieut.-Col. Herchmer may possibly be looking at what happened out there through glasses perhaps scarcely fair. I think that any wrong that occurred he would be inclined to see through a glass magnifying a good deal, and any good he would see from an infinitesimal point of view. I should not have referred to this, but it is only fair, I think, when a statement of this kind is sent into the House, no doubt at the request of Lieut.-Col. Herchmer


Andrew B. Ingram: No, Mr. Chairman, excuse me. Col. Herchmer is in no way responsible for that document, nor any other living man, so far as I know. I came across that document accidentally, I do not know who placed it in the position where I found it; and having perused it, I could not help referring the matter to the hon. gentleman. If it was laid in such a position that I could put my hands on it, there may be other documents lying around in such a position that other gentlemen can put their hands on them.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have no objection to the hon. gentleman reading it, but I think it was the duty of Lieut.-Col.\JIerchmer, who was appointed by this government as one of the officers of the Canadian contingent in South Africa, to make a report of that kind to his own government. As a matter of fact, Lieut.-Col. Herchmer was displaced from his command in South Africa on the report of General Hutton, supported by a medical officer, I forget which one it was ; and Col. Herchmer has been applying to me and to the government ever since for redress with reference to his treatment. I was not able to see that he had been badly treated, nor do I think he was badly treated. But I have no doubt that he feels uncomfortable, and feels disposed to make things as unpleasant as he can, both for this government and the Imperial government.


Andrew B. Ingram: I may say this is dated at Canarvon, 22nd March, 1900, and is addressed to the C. S. O., Ottawa, that is the chief staff officer, Ottawa. It goes on from day to day, giving reports to the department here, as I take it, and is signed T. D. B. Evans, Lt.-Col. Comndg. 2nd Bn., C.M.R.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Then, I think it would be in order to ask my hon. friend how he came into possession of it. If it is, an official document, I think we have a right to know.


Andrew B. Ingram: I can say I found it in a drawer. I do not know who put it there, I will admit that much, and that is all I can admit. That drawer I am in the habit of using myself.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is no doubt about its being an official document.
Mr. SPROTjLE. Would the minister tell us about the number of rifles we have, and also give us some information regarding the quality of the ammunition ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The only ammunition which we have had here which was not up to the proper standard, was ammunition which we purchased from the War Office. That was admitted to be bad. or not quite what it ought to be; and after having a report by the superintendent of the cartridge factory we asked parliament to vote, I think, a sum of $15,000 to make these cartridges all right. That money was voted, and the cartridges have been made good. The Imperial government, recognizing that we were not to blame in the matter, that they were responsible, have repaid the amount. As to the quantity of arms, we have 40,000 stand of Lee-Enfield and Lee-Metford rifles. As to the quantity of ammunition, I am not able to state the exact amount. Perhaps it is not desirable that I should. But I may say that it is not up to the reserve quantity that we ought to have, that we are increasing the capacity of the cartridge factory now to about four times what it was, in the hope that in a very few years we shall have a very large reserve indeed, a satisfactory reserve of ammunition, in fact the reserve which the intelligence branch of the .War Office required or advised.


Andrew B. Ingram: There is another matter I desire to mention, and one to which I drew the attention of the hon. gentleman last year, and that is the cadet corps. Would the hon. gentleman explain what he has done to supply the cadet corps with ammunition, & c.?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I may tell my hon. friend we have not supplied any ammunition to the cadet corps.


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman, I think, suggested this afternoon that he proposed to bring down a Bill at the next session to provide that before any soldier is allowed to join the active service he has to he thoroughly tested in the matter of shooting.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: And I notice, according to the report, he is supplying associations or clubs with free ammunition and rifles, I presume, they have got to give a bond for a proper care of the, rifle ?
THE MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE. Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: Now we have, speaking of my own city alone, a cadet corps, I think about 60 strong. They have taken a great interest in drill, and I think the department has supplied them with ammunition to some extent, and some tubes, I believe.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, the Morris tube.


Andrew B. Ingram: I think great encouragement ought to be given to the cadet corps, the citizens take a great deal of interest In them, and have subscribed for uniforms for these boys in order to encourage them. So far as our own cadet corps is concerned, Col. Peters inspected them, and no officer could make a better report than he has made of the cadet corps in St. Thomas. They have competed with the cadet corps of London and of Chatham, and with others. It strikes me as a singular thing that clubs or associations throughout the country can be supplied with free ammunition and free rifles, subject of course to a bond for proper care when so little attention is paid to the cadet corps of our country. I think cadet corps ought to be encouraged in every possible way, and if there is any free ammunition to be given, and plenty of it, they should be supplied. They are generally young men leaving collegiate institutes, 18 or 19 or 20 years of age, and very often they join the different battalions wherever they are located. These young boys will be eventually the defenders of our country, and the drilling and training they are receiving as cadets is of very great importance to them and to the country as well. So I say again, on behalf of the cadet corps, that more attention ought to given to them, and that the department ought not to be too particular in regard to supplying them, but that it should supply them as liberally as can be done.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think there is a great deal of force in what the hon. member for East Mr. INGRAM.
Elgin (Mr. Ingram) said, but we cannot do everything at once. I have my doubts as to whether, under the present law, we have the power without asking a special vote of parliament to do what he requests. If the law is revised, or if a new law is passed, there will be a-n opportunity then to make some provision for this. The age of the militiaman is now from eighteen years up,-whereas, many of the cadets are under that age, and they are not, strictly speaking, members of the militia. They are, however, most important features of the militia, and I quite agree that to the utmost of our ability we should encourage them and give them the means of learning how to shoot. That can be done at a much younger age than eighteen, the lowest age for joining the militia. I have not forgotten the matter and the hon. gentleman can rest assured that I will do whatever I can to encourage these cadet corps.


Andrew B. Ingram: Not being a military man I cannot discuss the question in military terms, because I have not been taught them. There is another thing that I omitted to mention and that was the question of tents.
I notice in the report that there is somethinglike 500 damaged tents at the departmental stores. I know that the cadet corps have applied frequently to the department for the use of these tents in order that they might camp out for a certain time in the summer. They have been refused on the ground that if the department were to give them to one cadet corps they would be obliged to give a great many of them to the different cadet corps throughout the Dominion. If there are 500 of these tents that are of no use for the regular militia, surely it would not be out of place to supply the cadet corps with these, because I understand they have a thorough system upon going into camp. They try as far as possible to conduct themselves on the same lines as those laid down for militiamen when they go into regular camp. This is a movement that should be encouraged and instead of obliging them to buy tents for themselves, or to borrow them, I think the department should supply them. So far as the vote of this House is concerned,' 1 have been here long enough to know that when a number of years ago the militia estimates were before this House, the members of the House certainly did not act in a very friendly manner towards the Department of Militia. They were, if I may use the word, too stingy with the public moneys in their grants to the Militia Department, but I think, perhaps, since the difficulty in South Africa has occurred, a more generous spirit has prevailed amongst the members of the House in regard to granting more money to the Militia Department. So far as I am personally concerned, while the Militia Department to-day is asking for a considerable sum of money, I am willing to vote a greater sum than we are

providing the department with now. 1 have always believed, and I believe now, as a civilian having no military knowledge, that when we have good men in this conn-try, men of ability willing to devote a large part of their time and to incur personal expense to assist in drilling our young men in order to make them soldiers, available in time of need for the defence of this country, the country has received too much at the hands of these men and that the members of this House have not come to this House with a view of assisting them as much as they should have done. I think the officers in our militia should receive greater encouragement and that they should not be called upon to pay out large sums of money for the purpose of helping their particular corps. I know men in the province of Ontario who, being too proud to allow their battalions to go down, have put their hands into their own pockets for the purpose of making their battalions a success, and I have known these very same men to leave their battalions a great deal poorer than when they joined them. Why this should be is beyond all comprehension.
I think we should give them all the encouragement we can reasonably, consistent with the other expenditures which we make throughout the country.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I would like to say one word in respect to the question of tents for the cadets. It is quite true that the Militia Department was in the habit of loaning a certain number of tents to the cadets, and as far as I know, they were well taken care of. But since we have taken to drilling the whole militia every year in camp, we have had to use all available tents and at the same time we found the demands \>n the part of the cadets increasing so that there was no alternative for us but to stop issuing them. We also had to consider, when the question became a large one, as to whether we had the right or not to issue these tents. The very same point that I suggested a moment ago in regard to rifles and ammunition, arises in reference to the supply of tents. I do not know that parliament authorizes us to supply tents. As to the damaged tents, I did hope that we might perhaps give these to the cadets, but my officers advised me that there was only one way in which that could be done, and that was by offering them at auction and have some one bid them in. I suggested that, but I do not think that suggestion was accepted. We must offer everything at public auction. There is no alternative, but I should be very glad indeed to facilitate in every way in my power the securing of these tents by the cadets or by some one in their behalf.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Am I correct in understanding that all of these cadet corps will be supplied with rifles ? Is it only cadet
corps in connection with collegiate institutes and high schools that will receive them, or cadet corps raised in any portion of the country ?
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND
DEFENCE. Cadet corps in any portion of the country.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is there any limit as to age in	the cadet corps ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes, there is an age limit of fourteen.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The cadets must be between fourteen and eighteen years of age V
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then the issue of rifles will apply to any cadet corps in any portion of the country ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I see that a large share of this vote is for clothing and stores, How do you buy clothing and stores ? Is it. by tender or do you just give an order to a large house ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The clothing during the last two or three years has been purchased from the same contractors with whom we made a contract three years ago. The Sanford Co., who were the contractors when I came in and who have been most satisfactory, and a firm in Montreal by the name of Workman, which has done a great deal for us and which has also been very satisfactory, are the contractors. The contract was made for three years under the late government, and although when I came into office I did not think it was a good arrangement I was glad to be able to state In the House last year that the system was a wise one. As a matter of fact we terminated several three years contracts, because the then Minister of Justice reported that they were illegal. We advertized for tenders in all the papers In all the cities of the Dominion, and I am bound to say that I never had so much trouble about anything in my life. A firm took a contract for about $70,000 which knew nothing about the work and absolutely failed to deliver any goods whatever. We had to go back to the Sanfords and ask them to do the work for us. After that experience, and on the advice of my officers I have felt that it was wiser for us and better in the public interest to stick to the bridge that has carried us safely over. I am satisfied that the prices we are paying are not extravagant That matter is carefully looked into and a report made on it. Although the price of cloth increased last year we were able to get our clothing made at practically the same rates as before and very satisfact-I orily.	.	.


Mr. ROSAMOND.: Will tlie minister say if it is proposed to make any change in the kind of clothing ?
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND; DEFENCE. Well I think it is, although the matter is under consideration. I think myself that we might have more comfortable clothing at less expenditure than at present, and I asked the General to look into that matter. I hope that some result will come of the inquiries which he is making.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you keep any quantity of clothing in stock ? How will you equip the new contingent for instance ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We will have to give an order for the clothing. Unfortunately we have no reserve of clothing. I found very little when I came in and we have been using a great deal in the camps and in the reviews during the visit of Their Royal Highnesses when we had 20,000 men out. We have not been able to accumulate a reserve. I hope under the terms of this vote that possibly we may be able this year to do with less in camp, and add something to our reserve. It is very important we should do so, but I did not feel at liberty to ask a special vote for it.


Mr. CLARE.: I was very much surprised to hear from the member for East , Elgin that the cadet company in St. Thomas had been supplied with Morris tubes for rifle practice. I know that a great many cadet companies from the different high schools have petitioned the Minister of Militia for Morris tubes but without success. The Minister of Education was presented with a petition from all the high schools in the province of Ontario, and was asked to make representations to the Minister of Militia about it. I cannot understand why one school should get this tube and all the others not. I think they should all be treated on the same principle. It is very important that these young men should have a chance of getting rifle practice which is perhaps the most important of the manoeuvres of war. I hope the minister will see that all schools are treated alike, and that all the cadet companies shall be supplied with these Morris tubes. I understand that there is a grant made to those companies of $50 each or altogether about $1,750 for drilling. It will cost very little more to provide these tubes so as to enable the cadets to study this important part of military service.
The MINISTER OF MILITIA Ai\D DEFENCE. I can assure my hon. friend (Mr. Clare) that there is no intention on my part to discriminate. I was not aware that any Morris tubes had been supplied to cadets. I know that an application has been made, but the fact is that we had not a sufficient number to comply with that application. I will inquire and we shall certainly treat all glike.


Frederick William Borden: 


George Adam Clare: Then, is it the intention of the minister to supply the different cadet companies with Morris tubes ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am informed by the Deputy Minister that we have not supplied any. It is quite possible that in the case referred to the tubes may have been secured from the local militia, and possibly that arrangement might be made in other instances.


George William Fowler: It would appear then that the department has done nothing to encourage the cadet corps. They have not allowed them to have tents.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We have supplied rifles.


George Adam Clare: You gave them no ammunition.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No.


George William Fowler: They would be like wooden guns then.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is plenty of ammunition to be purchased.


George William Fowler: No better use could be made of the money that is devoted to militia purposes, then in supplying these cadet corps with tents so that they may camp out. They go into the business not for the 75 cents a day but for mere love and enthusiasm, and when they are young and enthusiastic is the time to make soldiers of them. Tlie militia department should supply the cadets with tents and Morris tubes. I think the minister should take that suggestion into his serious consideration and try to do something during the coming summer.


Andrew B. Ingram: The militia department has sent officers to inspect these different cadet corps.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: And we have supplied drill instructors from the permanent force.


Andrew B. Ingram: I see that there is but one slight reference to the cadets in the whole of the militia report. Would it not be well to publish the report of these inspecting officers so that we may know what progress they are making.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That suggestion is a very good one. The cadets of course are not part of the militia, and there is no vote taken for them.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Do I understand that no Morris tubes were issued to the cadet corps.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The Deputy Minister informs me that there were not any issued.


Edward Frederick Clarke: What did the minister say as to supplying tents for the cadets '!


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We really have not the tents available. If I could I would gladly facilitate the cadets in securing tents that are reported as unlit for military use, but we must go through the form of selling them by public auction.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I desire to take the opportunity of saying that on two or three occasions when I asked the minister to facilitate the camping out of the companies of the boys brigade, he very kindly placed at their disposal tents that were not quite up to the mark for military purposes. Possibly he might be able to do something of that kind for the cadets.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE..: I will look into that suggestion.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I should think too, that the senior members of the cadet corps might possibly be supplied with a certain quantity of ammunition.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand that the supplies, after they become used up, chn only be sold legally by public auction.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, or by public tender.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That was not done with rifles that were sold at twenty-five cents each.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, by public tender advertised in every paper in all the large cities in Canada. That matter was threshed out here. I laid the papers on the Table. The hon. gentleman has forgotten it.


Andrew B. Ingram: When you submit the Bill next session you might provide that the damaged tents should be given to the cadet corps.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think provision might be made to include the cadets in the militia of the country, and I may say that is under consideration. Then there would be no difficulty.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice also that the report calls attention to the fact that many of the aiming tubes were out of order. It says
In one instance 33 out of a total of 48 were returned serviceable, as many as seven bullets having to be removed from one tube.
Is that owing to the carelessness of the men using them or to the tubes not being perfect ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I cannot tell my hon. friend. I think that it must be due to carelessness.


George Adam Clare: In the petition to the minister to which I have referred they asked that some of the discarded staff sergeants' swords should be given to the officers of the cadet corps. I understand that each company would like to have three swords, and if they are discarded and of no use to the department, I do not see why they should not be given to the cadet corps.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No reason at all. I think that ought to be done. I will look into it.


George William Fowler: I think some of these young cadets could hardly lift a cavalry sword. It would be rather heavy for them.


Andrew B. Ingram: I observe that the Major General in his report expresses disapproval of the abolition of canteens on the ground that soldiers are liable to go to hotels and indulge in spirits whereas they would be content with a glass of beer if they could get it in the canteen in camp. Has the hon. minister any particular view himself on this question ? I know he was attacked very severely a few years ago for allowing the canteens to exist, and he assured those who were attacking him that it was his intention to abolish them. If the commanding-officer in his report recommends them, and if only ales are allowed to be sold in them, on the ground that they would prevent the soldiers going outside and indulging too freely, I think it would be a step in the right direction to re-establish them, notwithstanding all that has been said against them. There is no doubt that while there may be a good many temperance men in camp, there are others who believe in taking a glass of ale-perhaps more than that.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Two of them.


Andrew B. Ingram: Yes, two of them. I think we ought not to be guided too much by sentiment in this matter. I think common sense ought to prevail, and that the Major General's recommendation should be carried out. I am not advocating the drinking of liquor by soldiers, but they may think at times that they should have a glass of ale, and I see no good reason why they should be deprived of it.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: If my hon. friend were clothed with responsibility of office possibly he would not be quite so free to express his opinion. The fact is that when I came into office I found the regulation to which the Major General takes exception in existence, although some people have supposed that it was adopted quite recently. That regulation has been in existence for ten years or more. While the Major General is quite within his right in expressing his own opinion, I am not myself inclined to recommend the wiping out of that regulation. If a man requires a glass of beer, if it is essential

to liis health, there is a way of getting it, the surgeon can prescribe it. If he really needs anything of that kind it can be got in that way. * If he is perfectly well he can get along very well with tea or coffee or ginger ale. I am inclined to think that our lady friends, who take a great interest in the militia, would view the abolition of this regulation as a retrograde step, and I do not propose at this moment to take the risk of making them the enemies of the militia organization. I think, therefore, the regulation will have to continue.


Andrew B. Ingram: Lest I should be thought to have misrepresented the position of the Major General, I think it would be well to place on ' Hansard ' his recommendation on this subject, and if hon. gentlemen have no objection, I will read it for that purpose. He says this :
I would n*ot on any account permit the sale of spirits in the canteens during annual drill, but I must here most strongly protest against a system that forces a soldier, if he needs a glass of beer, to resort to the saloons and drinking shops of the nearest town where there is no control over either the quality, nature, or quantity of the liquor supplied to him. The effect of this regulation is to largely increase the amount of drunkenness in camp, and it is easy to show why this is so. In a military canteen all liquor has to be consumed on the premises and, if proper supervision is exercised, no man shall be served with more than is good Mr him. But what, happens under the. existing system of prohibition ? The man who would have been contented with his glass of ale or lager beer had he been able to procure it in camp, has to walk some distance to get his drink, probably takes whiskey instead of malt liquor, and very often returns to camp with a bottle of bad whiskey under his coat which he takes to his tent and proceeds to make his comrades intoxicated.
I contend that it is a serious evil to drive our men into the temptation of the city liquor bars, rather than let them buy a glass of wholesome beer in their own camp, and I trust that this incentive to intemperance may be removed from the militia regulations.
There is no doubt that the Major General has had a great deal of experience of soldiers, both in the old country and in Canada, and if his observation of their habits and customs has led him to make this recommendation, and it will be the means of preventing the too free use of spirits, and is really a step in the direction of temperance, I think his recommendation should be carried out. If it be in the interest of temperance, as he says it is-and I am sure he ought to be the better judge than some of those who object-in my judgment we should adopt the recommendation of the Major General.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have the various corps the right to store their arms at their own headquarters ?


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The General commanding recommends that we should go back to the - Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).
old system of issuing the rifles to the captains- of companies at company headquarters, and that is being done now.
Mr. CLARKE, Have we disposed of canteen business ?


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I intend to leave tbe regulation as it is.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not quite understand the explanation of the minister with regard to the increase of $440,000 to $520,000. Are $150,000 more to be voted in the supplementaries ?


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The fact is that the annual drill of the whole militia costs $425,000, and the custom has been to vote $275,000 for the first part of the year and $150,000 for the balance. But there is not much to be said in defence of that system. I ask the one sum, and it is not my intention to ask any supplementary estimates for the years 1902-3. But there will be a supplementary asked for this year 1901-2, as a portion of the militia go into camp in June, and it will require $135,000 to $150,000 to drill them. This vote will be sufficient for the year from 1st July, 1902 to the 30th June, 1903.


Robert Laird Borden: There is really no increase ?
The	MINISTER	OP	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. No, it is a reduction.


Robert Laird Borden: Comparing it with the estimate of 1900, which was $275,000, and adding the $150,000, would make $425,000.
The	MINISTER	OP	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: And this includes something further ?
The	MINISTER	OP	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Clothing and stores.


Robert Laird Borden: I think this is a very much better way than to have two votes. I objected to that system of supplementary votes last year. I could see no reason why all the departments should not do as the hon. gentleman has done in this case, namely, bring down the whole estimate in the first place, so that the House may judge what amount the minister thinks will be requisite for the expenditure of the year. I made a formal protest against the other system last year, and suggested to the Minister of Finance that this change should be adopted and I am glad it has been in this case. It is a more business like way of dealing with the matter.
Salaries and wages, $90,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE..: The increase here of $10,000 is due to the fact that we have had to employ more men and give them higher wages.

Higher wages^are being paid in every other department of the government, and we found it absolutely necessary to increase them here. We increased last year the pay something like 25 cents per day for each man, and I hope we will be able to get along this year without further increase.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Has the hon. minister considered the propriety of giving the first contingent the same pay as was received by the second ? That was brought to the attention of parliament last session, and he said he would consider the matter.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Before the supplementaries come down I may be able to give an answer. The matter was discussed last session and I thought it seemed to be the sense of the House that the law, as it stood, should not be disturbed. However, I will bring the matter up again in council, and have it discussed and give an answer later.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I think the feeling is very general, in view of the splendid services rendered by the men of the first contingent, that it was an invidious distinction to pay them a much smaller per diem allowance than the men who succeeded them.
I am satisfied that if the minister should ask parliament to vote the amount necessary to increase the pay of the men, it would be cheerfully done. The pay did not influence the men of the first contingent, or those of the second contingent either, and I think that the men of the first contingent are entitled to as much per diem as the men who followed them.
' Militia-chargeable to income-military properties, $190,000.


George William Fowler: Some time ago, discussing the Sussex armoury, I made a statement which I wish to correct. I found some fault with the architect who designed the armoury and who had apportioned the different parts of it to the several corps. I think that I stated at that time that the compartments that were to be given to each company of the infantry were made the same size as those set apart for each squadron of cavalry. I was speaking from recollection of what had been said to me. I find that, technically, I was wrong. But, practically I was right. The armoury is divided into two equal portions, one half being devoted to the 8th regiment of cavalry, and the other to the 74th battalion. Now, the 74th battalion consists of six companies, with the total strength of 278. The cavalry has a total strength of 359, or nearly a hundred more than the infantry. In the case of the cavalry, there is the horse equipment, and the equipment of a horse will occupy fully as much space as the equipment of a man. The compartments were not as I stated they were, of equal size, for there are six compartments in one half, one for the use of the quartermaster
and the others for the use of the companies; in the other case there are five compartments, one for the use of the quartermaster, and four for the accoutrements of men and horses. Generally speaking, the point I made was that the same amount of room was devoted to the 74th battalion as was devoted to the 8th cavalry, though the cavalry consisted of something like eighty more men than the infantry and also had	the	equipment	of	the horses toconsider.	Therefore,	my	contention wasa proper one, and there is actually not	room enough	for	this regimentof cavalry and its equipment. I think that	at	that time	the	minister said
that the Oliver equipment when issued to the men, would take up a good deal more room. But, even so, I must persist in my claim that the division is not properly made, if it is made along the lines suggested.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: When my hon. friend (Mr. Fowler) made the statement, I felt that it was an important one, because it seemed to reflect upon the work of the architect. The question is not so much as to how the space is divided, for it is possible the 74th regiment might be increased in strength, or, if there was extra room another infantry corps might be accommodated, for this room is not necessarily limited to the 74tli. But the real question is the one to which the hon. gentleman referred at the end of his remarks-is there sufficient accommodation for the cavalry ? The hon gentleman says there is not. But my officers say that there is.


George William Fowler: I may say that my authority is the quartermaster of the 8th Hussars, who ought to know.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Did the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fowler) speak to the colonel about it ?


George William Fowler: I did not happen to see the colonel, but the quartermaster would know more about it than the colonel.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I understand that the' plan was submitted to the colonel before the work was gone on with, and he approved of it. The chief engineer of the department says that the plan was prepared by him, giving the accommodation asked for by the General Officer commanding.


Andrew B. Ingram: I notice that the chief engineer of the Militia Department has made a recommendation, as follows :
The present system by which the Public Works Department construct all military buildings1 fs very unsatisfactory, and considerable trouble and delay is occasioned thereby. I would strongly urge the necessity of having the construction, as well as the maintenance and repairs of these buildings under the charge of the engineer branch of the Department of Militia and Defence.

Has any step been taken on that direction, or is that recommendation to be acted upon ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No steps have been taken in that direction, and I do not feel at liberty to discuss the matter until the policy of the government with reference to it has been settled. It is no harm, however, for me to say that there is a good deal of inconvenience resulting from the fact that the work for the Militia Department is being done by the Department of Public Works. The same condition of tilings existed for many years in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and, I think while Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper was minister, or perhaps earlier, a change was made by which the Department of Marine and Fisheries did their own work of constructing lighthouses and so on. There would certainly be many advantages in having the work done by the Militia Department itself.


Andrew B. Ingram: As I understand, these armouries are for the purpose of keeping the arms and accoutrements in a proper state. I notice that at page 41, the Major General commanding reports :
So soon as district staff adjutants are appointed to all the military districts, more frequent inspections of the arms and equipment of rural companies should be made, and this would minimize the risk of deterioration ; but I strongly recommend that, to make inspections more effective, a thoroughly qualified armourer should form part of the staff of each military district, who should accompany the stall officer at all inspections.
Have these district staff adjutants been appointed ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No.


Andrew B. Ingram: Have the armourers been appointed ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I believe there are qualified armourers in nearly all, if not all, the military districts.


Andrew B. Ingram: May I ask if the district staff adjutant for military district No. 1 has been appointed ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is the London district ? No.


Frank Oliver: What arrangement has been made for the taking care of the arms and accoutrements of the mounted rifles in the west ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: So far as I know, they are under the control of the commanding officer.


Frank Oliver: Have any arrangements been made for the renting of a building to keep them in ?


Andrew B. Ingram: 


The MINISTER OF MJLITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, there is a money allowance that is supposed to be sufficient to cover everything. As a matter of fact the captains have usually buildings of their own, and they are given lump sums of money for taking care of the buildings.


Mr. BARKER.: I wish to call attention to the state of things that exists at Hamilton.. We have there a battery of artillery and a regiment of infantry ; and without boasting, I may say we are very proud of that battery and of that regiment. We think they ace not exceeded in soldierly qualities by any other regiment or battery im the Dominion. A medical corps has lately been formed there, and during the short time it has been in existence we have had reason to feel equally proud of the commander and men of that corps. Not long since I was asked by the officer commanding to visit the quarters of the medical corps, and I am glad to be able to say, to the credit of the Militia Department, that the medical and surgical equipment provided there by the government was a credit to this country. I do not profess to be able to judge myself of such matters, but I express the opinion of gentlemen who are competent to judge. Nothing could be better, nothing could be more complete than the equipment provided by the minister. But, Sir, I was surprised, when asked to visit the quarters of that corps, to rind that, instead of going to the drill shed and armoury,
I had to go into the middle of the city, half a mile away from the armoury, and into the second story of a business block. Now I have a reason for bringing this matter before the minister. There arc volunteers drilling night after night at this season, and practicing with heavy guns, and at any moment there may be a serious accident, and if an accident should occur it would be easier to get a dozen ordinary medical practitioners than to reach the medical corps at its quarters. I| do not think that is right.
I may say that I was even more astonished to learn that the quarters in which these valuable stores were kept were not provided by the Dominion of Canada, but by the officer commanding the corps and at his own expense. I think that is not credible to this Dominion. I make these remarks with reference to what the minister has said as to the providing of accommodation not being entirely within his control. The Minister of Public Works, I believe, as things go at present, has to be consulted in all such matters. I do not know wiether >
he Minister of Militia and Defence has any control over the 40,000 rifles that he has spoken of, but if be has not, I think he ought to apply to the Major General for a permit to take one of those rifles with a bayonet, and poke up tbe Minister of Public Works to compel him to provide us with proper accommodation at Hamilton for the medical corps. Accidents might very possibly

happen to the men in gun drill. Some years ago the officer commanding the battery at Hamilton was injured in camp, and that gentleman will go to his grave limning because there were not then at baud the necessary surgical appliances. Such accidents may happen at any time to the men of the corps in the spring of the year, and I think it is not to the credit of the government- I do not like to say it is to the discredit of the Militia Department, because it does not entirely rest with the Minister of Militia ; but it is not to the credit of the government that after forming and equipping a medical corps, that corps should not be, in case of accident, immediately available.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is a great deal of force and truth in what my hon. friend has said. He must not forget, however, that when the Hamilton drill hall was constructed, in fact all the drill halls, there were no bearer companies then, and there was no army medical corps or staff in existence, you may say, in this country. It was not then contemplated to give accommodation to a corps of any kind to which the hon. gentleman refers, though we can all see now that such a corps is absolutely necessary, and one of the most important parts of the system. Therefore a place had to be found outside. I was not aware that the commanding officer of the bearer company was paying rent for the building, I was under the impression we were paying it. I know we are paying rent in other places, and we should pay rent in Hamilton. My hon. friend, however, will be glad to know that I hope to be able, out of this vote, to make some provision adjacent to that drill hall for the corps of which he speaks. That is one of the things which we contemplate doing with the money now being voted.


Samuel Barker: I do not assert positively that the commanding officer is paying the rent, but I understand he is. I shall be glad to know that the government is paying the rent


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We are paying it everywhere else.	.


Samuel Barker: The most serious objection is that the medical corps are quartered nearly half a mile away from the drill shed. I think that state of things should not exist one minute longer than it can be remedied.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I agree in that view.


George Adam Clare: I notice in the report of the Major General that during the year 1901, he mentions drill halls as having been built at Windsor, Dundas, Kingston and Vancouver, and central armouries at Aurora, Barrie, Charlottetown, Chatham, Fredericton, Galt, &c. I would like to know whether
this means that an armoury has been erected in the town of Galt. It says so on page 41 ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I am not prepared to give an answer with regard to this particular place. The report means, I think, that armouries have been established within the buildings. The Militia Department does not construct new buildings ; but under the Act we may add to buildings already in existence, or repair or alter them. So I assume that must mean that in Galt some change has been made in the building for providing a central armoury for the battalion of infantry.


George Adam Clare: The report here says that it had been completed. Now in the town of Galt the agricultural society of the south riding of Waterloo, erected a new building, and in this building they rented a room, I understand, for an armoury, for which the government pays them $40 per annum. This report is misleading if it means that the government has erected a building there for armoury purposes. I would like to say that in the county of Waterloo, where we have a regiment, there is just one armoury for one of the companies in the town of Hespeler, and that itself is a make shift.
I think it would be proper for the government to enlarge the regiment which we have in Waterloo, and which is composed of six companies. I understand that there should be eight companies in a regiment. We can easily have two companies more. The town of Waterloo is very anxious to organize a company, Berlin would form another company, and Preston could form a company. The county of Waterloo is so situated that one-half of the regiment, located in Hespeler, Preston and Galt, would have the advantage of electric railway communication. They would have four companies at these places, and then four other companies would be located, twq at Berlin, one at Waterloo and one at Hamburg. We could then have a full regiment, and we should have armoury and drill shed accommodation for half of the battalion in Galt, and for the other half in Berlin. Is it the intention of the government to erect these buildings ? I understand, a few years ago-I do not know whether it was just before an election -there was some land purchased in the town of Berlin for the purpose of erecting a drill shed and armoury. Unfortunately in North Waterloo the election went by acclamation and we have heard nothing since in regard to it. I think when we have in that county men who are willing to fight the battles of the country, we should provide them with armouries so as to give them a chance.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I can assure my hon. friend (Mr. Clare), in all sincerity, that the election had nothing to do, nor will it have anything to do' with the policy of the Militia

Department as to where armouries are located. They are located at the headquarters of the battalion, and that will be done regardless of the results of elections. In regard to this particular battalion to which my hon. friend has referred, I have no doubt that what is meant is that the room in Galt has been fitted up at the expense of the Militia Department. Some expenditure has been made, and no doubt the name is included there, because there has been an expenditure. Perhaps the engineer should have been more particular as to the nature of it. That is the reason it is in the list. There has been some expenditure in connection with arm racks, or the means of taking care of the equipment and furniture.


Edward Frederick Clarke: Was there a site purchased for the erection of a drill hall at Berlin a couple of years ago?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think not.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I understood the statement was made that there had; been.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No.


Edward Frederick Clarke: In the list of drill halls and central armouries that have been completed during 1901, I notice that the Toronto central armoury is conspicuous by its absence. That hall has not been completed yet, but I am very glad to hear from the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence that it is within the province of the Department of Militia to add to or alter the buildings that have been erected for militia purposes by the Public Works Department.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We have brought the question of the completion of the Toronto drill hall before the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence and the hon. Minister of Public Works again and again, but there seemed always to be a divided authority. When we appealed to the hon. Minister of Public Works we were referred to the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence, and when we appealed to that hon. gentleman, we were referred by him to his colleague. Now, however, he has made the statement, and I am very glad to hear it from him, that it is quite within the province of the Militia Department to complete a building, to add to a building, or to alter it.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Not to complete.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We only want him to add the accommodation that is so urgently required, and we shall certainly after this hold the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence himself, and not the hon. Minister of Public Works, responsible if the work is not done with reasonable expedition.


Frederick William Borden: 


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think my hon. friend (Mr Clarke) is a little bit astray yet. I understand him to say that the building in Toronto is not completed.


Edward Frederick Clarke: No.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Therefore, the Public Works Department have not yet got through with their job, and I must refer the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) to the department Which undertook the construction of this building to see that they complete it.


Mr. BLAIN.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if any provision is made in this grant for the better accommodation of arms in the town of Brampton. This is the matter that was up for consideration last year.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I may say to my hon. friend (Mr. Blain) that under the regulations by which the arms are distributed to the headquarters of companies, a good many armouries that were under consideration will be unnecessary, and I cannot say whether this is one of them or not. What is the number of the hon. gentleman's battalion?


Richard Blain: The 36th Peel Battalion.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have the list here and I will look at it in the meantime and see whether it is included.


Andrew B. Ingram: Perhaps it may be well to See what the Major General says on this question of armouries. He says :
I have also observed that where rural regiments have been provided with central armouries, there is a decided leaning on the part of commanding officers to gradually convert their commands into city corps, to the very great detriment of the service, for, however good the city regiments may be, the bulk of our defence force must be the hardy men of our rural units, and anything which has a possibility of weakening that portion of the active militia is, in my opinion, greatly to be deprecated
I, therefore, recommend that 'central armouries ' should cease to be provided for rural regiments, and that, in their stead, plain substantial buildings should be hired, as at present, for company armouries at the company headquarters.
Perhaps that would do away with a lot of the promises that are made by the Public Works Department for political purposes to put up buildings throughout the country. I will be very glad indeed if some of the patronage of that department is wiped out by taking away telegraph lines and armouries from it. If the Public Works Department were shorn of a lot of that patronage, we would have less politics in that department.


Mr. McGOWAN.: I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence what the policy of the department is in connection with this matter that the hon. member

for Bast Elgin (Ml-. Ingram) lias spoken about. Some military people in my constituency belonging to the 30th regiment, feel very strongly about this matter. They think it will be most unwise to establish central armouries at the headquarters of the regiment, and I understand that they have communicated that view to the minister. They think it would be a mistake to build a large armoury in the city of Guelph, and this notwithstanding the fact that some of the people holding that view live in the city of Guelph themselves. They spoke to me about it. They expressed the belief that it would be better to provide accommo-* dation at the company headquarters and not at the headquarters of the regiment. When I was home during the recess I was spoken to about it, and I know there is quite, a strong feeling in the regiment that instead of erecting a large building at the headquarters of the regiment the minister should provide accommodation at the company headquarters. Will the minister tell us what his policy is in regard to that matter-?


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I agree with the recommendation of the Major General that we should provide armouries, or suitable rooms, at the company headquarters, and on the strength of that recommendation, rifles will be immediately issued to the rural battalions and disposed of in that way. I do not think it will be necessary to construct a building in all cases, perhaps not in many cases, because suitable rooms can be found. That is the policy which has been adopted.


Mr. LEMIETJX.: I understand that about a month ago a delegation from Montreal composed of the officers of the Montreal regiments came up to Ottawa and urged the establishement of a military school. Has any progress been made in that connection ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I will have to refer my hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux), I think, to the hon. Minister of Public Works, as well as my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Clarke). As a matter of fact, what my hon. friend says is quite correct, and I may say to him that I consider it a matter of importance that there should be a depot established at the most important centre of trade and population in Canada, Montreal. The matter has not been fully discussed yet, and I think it would be premature to say what would be done this year.


Edward Frederick Clarke: I wish to direct the attention of the Minister of Militia and Defence to the report of the chief engineer of his department respecting military buildings. This report is very pregnant now, and if the recommendation which the chief engineer made were carried out we would know whom to hold responsible for the unreasonable delays which have occurred. The report says : '
The present system by which the Public Works Department construct all military buildings is very unsatisfactory, and considerable trouble and delay is occasioned thereby. I would strongly urge the necessity of having the construction, as well as the maintenance. and repairs of these buildings under the charge of the engineer branch of the Department of Militia and Defence.
Might I ask the minister :	What is the
policy of the department respecting this recommendation ? Has the government decided to carry it out or not ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have already stated that I have no hesitation in saying that I believe that it would be in the public interest to have the construction of military buildings under the control of the Militia Department. So far no action has been taken with reference to that.


Edward Frederick Clarke: This would be a very good time to carry out the recommendation made by the officer of the department.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It would require an Act of parliament.


Edward Frederick Clarke: We could rush that
through in very short order if absolutely necessary. There is a good opportunity for doing so just now. I find that the chief superintendent of stores also makes a report in reference to the condition of military store buildings which emphasizes the necessity for a change in the present method of constructing and maintaining militia buildings. This officer says on page three of his report:
Store Buildings.
Reference is requested to recommendations on this subject, in previous reports. New store buildings are urgently required in Toronto and Kingston. Those now in use are constructed of wood, very old, and in constant need of repair. No proper care can be taken of the valuable material stored in them.
I would remind the Minister of Militia and Defence that so deficient is the military store accommodation in the city of Toronto, that some of the municipal buildings have been given to the department in which to store valuable military supplies. In view of the reports made by the superintendent of military stores, and by the chief engineer of the department, this matter should be immediately given attention to. We should be able to hold some minister responsible for the unreasonable delay in completing the drill shed in Toronto. Now that the attention of the Minister of Militia and Defence has been called to the matter, and now that he has assumed a reasonable measure of responsibility, I trust that we shall have no more cause for complaint.


Richard Blain: Would the Minister of Militia and Defence now answer my question w'ith regard to a drill shed in Brampton.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I do not find any mention of that particular matter but as this is a general vote it is possible to use it for urgent purposes as they arise. I shall be very glad to look into the matter to see if what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) refers to lias been recommended, or whether it will still 'be required under the changed conditions to which I have referred as to the distribution of arms to the country companies.
Militia-Provisions, supplies and remounts, $130,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I want to say a word on a subject somewhat cognate to this vote. The system which has been carried out by Major Dent heretofore in purchasing remounts has not given satisfaction, although I believe that he is now making a change which will be more likely to meet with approval than the original system. At first remounts were purchased generally through one party, and if rumour can be relied upon that party made a great deal of money and did very little work. Those who purchased horses and brought them to Toronto complain that they were obliged to sell them through Grand's old firm, which had a substantial rake off on every animal purchased. The result was that the buyer was obliged to purchase them at a very low figure, and he could not get as good a class of horses on account of the low prices. He was obliged to sell them to this firm and the firm for doing nothing at all, except perhaps supplying a suitable place for the inspection of the horses, made a substantial rake off. While the Militia Department here may have no control over the matter, yet we have always believed that if they made representations to the War Office that it would be more in their interest and in the interest of the people of Canada if a different system were adopted, that representation would be attended to. It would be a much better plan to have the horses sent to the exhibition grounds in Toronto where they could be inspected at certain dates and purchased if found suitable. In this way a better class of animals would be supplied at a lower cost to the War Department, and our farmers would get better prices. I notice of late that there is greater latitude allowed to the buyers of horses, and so far that this is an improvement. I hold that there should be the greatest freedom in this matter, and even the individual farmer should be able to send his animals to Toronto and have them examined and purchased direct from him. That system would be better for the Imperial authorities, and the farmers of Ontario would get a better price for their animals.


John McGowan: All the horses were not bought in Toronto.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, but a large number were.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) says : This is not our concern nor do I think it would be advisable for us to offer advice unless it were asked. When my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture was in England last year he had an opportunity of discussing this very question with the War Office, and he and I have been trying to induce the Imperial authorities to establish regular and permanent remount stations in this country for the purchase of horses. Up to this date nothing has been done, but I hope that something may be done, in which case officers of either the Department of Agriculture or of my own de-jjartment would deal directly with the people. It has been suggested that fairs might be- held, not necessarily at Toronto, but at country centres once a month, to which horses might be brought, and that men should be sent out to select the horses on the spot. I hope something of that kind will grow out of the negotiations now going on.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That would be preferable, for this reason, that a large percentage of the horses sent to Toronto are culled out, and they have either to be put up at auction and sold at whatever they will bring, or else are left on the buyer's hands. If he sells them, he is obliged to take a lower price than the animal is worth if bought at home, besides paying the cost of sending them there.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is quite true, and I think the amount of money which these dealers have been credited with having made is altogether incorrect. As my hon. friend says, they have had left on their hands a large number of horses which they could not dispose of or had to sell at auction at very low figures, which has eaten up a very large part of -the profit.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: My understanding is that if a buyer consigned a number of horses to Silver and Grand of Toronto, he would only be responsible for the number selected out of that consignment and he would get something like $5 or $10 for each horse taken by the purchaser, but the culls would be left on his hands.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I happen to know of one case in which fully 1-2$ per cent of the horses consigned to the Grand firm were thrown on their hands, and they actually lost that number of horses, or had to dispose of them at very low figures.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I may say that the officer who is here purchasing on behalf of the War Office has considerably modified the original system, and for more than a year back has been purchasing in a large number of centres. When he first began purchasing he only went to two


Richard Blain: 

or tln-ee centres-perhaps Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal ; but lately he has been going to a large number of centres, and has been having the horses brought there. What my hon. friend the Minister of Militia says is quite true in many instances. I do not think the officer himself knows altogether what the arrangements are between the man who brings in the horses and the original owners of them ; but I know of my own personal knowledge that in many cases the contractors found on their hands a large number of rejected horses which they had to dispose of as best they could. In addition to that, they were under considerable expense. They had to keep the horses from one to two weeks before the officers came round, trim them, and in some cases bridle and bit them and manage them. So that the business is not quite as profitable as at first sight it appears. 1 have no doubt these contractors have been making some money ; it is not likely they would engage in the business if they did not ; but I think I may say that the prices of horses in Canada has been materially raised in consequence of the purchases of the War Office within the last two years, and it has helped to relieve our own market of a large number of horses which otherwise would not have been easily sold.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I know that prices have been materially raised, because many of these horses were bought from the farmers at as low as $65 or $70 and sold to the War Office at $140.


An hon. MEMBER.: No, no.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: X know what I am talking about, because I saw some of the animals purchased. I moved for a return on the subject in this House, and I found that these horses had been sold to the War Office at an average price of $140. But that has been changed, and the farmers are at present getting comparatively good prices for their horses. If, as the minister suggests. fairs are held at different localities, where the farmers can bring in their horses or the contractors could have them selected direct by the party sent around to make the selection, that would be in my judgment the very best plan that could be adopted.
Grants to associations, $38,000.


The MINISTER OE MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This is the usual vote. Ontario gets $1,800, Quebec $1,700, Nova Scotia $1,500, New Brunswick $1,300, Manitoba $750, British Columbia $620. and Prince Edward Island $630, making $8,300. The grant to battalion rifle associations and to bands range from $25 to $200 each, according to strength and efficiency, about 90 of each. The artillery grant is all paid to the Artillery Association. There is the grant to the dominion Rifle Association and the grant to local rifle associations $6,500. The bands of the 81
active miliiia receive $7,500, and military institutes $300.
Contingencies, $22,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This includes printing and stationery, $12,000; military survey, $4,000. This is a topographical survey, done by cadets at the Royal Military College, under the direction of their professors.


Robert Laird Borden: What was done with it afterwards ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is in the Intelligence branch of the Quartermaster General's office. It is a most careful survey of the country along the frontier, giving every road, the height of hills and the buildings. It is a magnificent piece of work, well worth examining.


Robert Laird Borden: How much of the country has been done ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: We have been doing the work for the last five years. I could not say the number of miles. Then there is advertising $1,500; injuries at annual drill. $3,000; telegraph and legal expenses, &c., $3,500. When we came to office we had a smaller vote, but two years ago we adopted the plan of making the vote large enough to cover expenses, so that we will not have to ask any supplementary vote.


Robert Laird Borden: What are those injuries ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Injuries to men, but more particularly to horses. Every year there is a certain number of horses killed or rendered useless, and we pay for them at a rate not exceeding $100 per horse.
Royal Military College, $75,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would call the attention of the minister to some comments by the commandant on this institution :
It is a matter for great regret that this admirable institution', established for the express purpose of securing for the Canadian militia a supply of well trained and capable officers, entirely fails to attain this object. What brought about this state of things it is impossible to say, but one thing seems clear, that in the period spent at the college, the students do not imbibe any soldierly ambition or acquire a taste for military employment, and it is sad to see, year after year, young gentlemen who have received such an excellent military education at great cost to the state, holding aloof from the service of their country.
Has the minister given any consideration to those comments ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I have read very carefully the General's report, and while I agree with him to some extent, I do not think that he should have made so strong a case. He



is quite mistaken when lie says that no military spirit is imparted to the cadets. As a matter of fact, tliere are now in the British army nearly a hundred cadets of the Royal Military College Had he said that the young men were not entering our militia or permanent corps, he would have spoken more correctly. But I do not see how we can remedy this. We might require each young man, on entering the school, to undertake to join a corps of Canadian militia after he came out, but I think that would be rather difficult. What I hope is that in the future more graduates of the college will come into our permanent corps. We have scarcely any there now, because they do not consider it good enough for them. They prefer going to the British army, where they have a career, which our permanent force does not offer. Besides we have no pensions, so that there is very little but hard work to offer them, and nothing at the end. But now we have a pension and hope to greatly raise the character of the permanent corps. So far as the active militia is concerned, every cadet who graduates is a member of the Canadian active militia and available for service when required. Many of these young men are now in the active militia throughout the country, and when the South African trouble came, we found dozens of them who were working throughout Canada as engineers, offering their services. There was a large number on the second contingent and in the Strathcona Horse, and a considerable number are now in the squadrons in the last contingent, so that I do not think the condition is as hopeless as the Major General thinks.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Wliat percentage of the graduates is in the Canadian militia and also in Canada ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. I had these figures a year or two ago and gave them to the House. I asked for the statement this morning, but have not yet received it, but will give the information on the supplementaries.


Robert Laird Borden: Was it in the ' Hansard ' last year	?
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Either that or the year before.


Robert Laird Borden: This school
seems to be regarded more as a school for educating an engineer than to fit young men for the military career. I do not know exactly how the difficulty is to be got over, but it seems rather discouraging. Are there any graduates of that school in the permanent force ?
The	MINISTER	OF	MILITIA	AND
DEFENCE. Yes, two or three.


Robert Laird Borden: How many
does the school turn out annually ?	*


Frederick William Borden: , The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE. Now over thirty. For a good many years there were only from seven to ten.


Robert Laird Borden: A certain number go into the Imperial service ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes, a very large number went last year.


Robert Laird Borden: I suppose that is something that might be placed to our credit-that we do afford a military education to officers which go into the service every year. Is the education provided by this institution regarded as at all equivalent to the training given by similar institutions in England ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Quite as good.


Robert Laird Borden: It is placed on the same plane ?	.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Has the hon. gentleman any idea how many men there are in the Imperial service who are graduates of this college ? I suppose the statement he refers to would give that ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think it is over a hundred.


Mr. TAYLOR.: I see by the Auditor General's report, page Q-91 that William Allan and Son of Kingston received $2,430.15 for boots. &c., and at page Q-93 C. Livingston and Bros., received $7,649.99 for clothing. Were these goods purchased by tender ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I think not.


George Taylor: I should think not by the prices that I see charged here, and by the fact that these gentlemen are very strong partisans of hon. gentlemen opposite. Messrs. Allan supplied 49 pairs of long boots at $10, and 10 pairs of riding boots at $10 a pair, also 194 pairs of short boots at $6 a pair. Then, Messrs. Livingston supplied, for instance blouses at $2.50 each, 4 great coats and 2 capes, $73 ; 30 coats at $10.50 ;
8 pairs of gloves at 25 cents and 170 pairs at $1 a pair. I suppose these are kid gloves for the young gentlemen we have there. It seems to me the furnishing of supplies for that Military College ought to be by tender and not by going to a friend of the party at Kingston and paying these large prices, when the amount is over $7,600.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That has never been done, and it would be very difficult to do. These young gentlemen have to be measured for the boots or clothing they get. It is not like asking for a large quantity of clothing for general use to be distributed among men according

as it happens to fit. In this case they are the prices of the tailor and shoemaker-retail prices.


George Taylor: Retail prices ?


The MINISTER OE MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Certainly.
Militia-chargeable to income-Dominion Arsenal, $150,000.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase here of .$32,000. What is the explanation of that ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That is for the manufacture of cartridges. This increase of $32,000 is taken from what would have been the vote for annual drill and stores. As I pointed out, we are increasing the output of cartridges enormously, and this is to pay for wages, as we must employ more labour.


Andrew B. Ingram: Is there anything in this vote for additional machinery, or anything [DOT]of that kind ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, all labour.
Militia-chargeable *to income-defences at Esquimalt, $114,703.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is being done there ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: There is an increase over last year of $2,433.


Robert Laird Borden: According to the estimates before us there is a decrease of over $10,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 
Robert Laird Borden: Is it all expended by this government, or is any part expended by the Imperial government ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: It is expended by the Imperial government, except the portion that is for the maintenance for the local militia which is supposed to be maintained at the establishment fixed by the agreement, and cost $10,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What percentage of the whole cost are we to bear ?
The MINISTER OF MI LUl IA AND DEFENCE. We are to bear one-half the total expenses.


Robert Laird Borden: Outsiue of the militia what is the expense ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: 
Robert Laird Borden: I understand, but for what purpose, is it labour, is it buildings, or what 1


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: The maintenance of the Imperial garrison of 320 officers and men including engineers and artillery.


Robert Laird Borden: And besides that, we have our own ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: Yes.
Militia-chargeable to capital-rifle range, $75,-
000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: I would like to change the words there, so as to make them read ' for the purchase of land and the equipment of rifle ranges.' The work we have done for this vote since it was begun two years ago included the construction of the rifle range here, the expenditure on which I gave last session ; the rifle range at Montreal, the expenditure on which I gave a day or two ago in answer to a question by the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) ; rifle ranges at Hamilton, Halifax-or near Halifax-St. John, Fredericton, London, Victoria, Sherbrooke and other places, besides one undertaken at Winnipeg. These are first-class rifle ranges, 1,000 yard ranges, up tq date in every respect. I am told that the rifle range at Ottawa is one of the best in the world. The one in Montreal, though not quite so large, is equally good.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think the minister said yesterday that the rifle range in Montreal would cost $35,000.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: That was the cost of the buildings and the work alone. I think the land cost $30,000 or $40,000, and the total cost will be about $75,000. The range here cost more than that, because we had heavy expenses in the Exchequer Court by reason of the fact that we could not settle with some of the holders of the land. The rifle range at Winnipeg will be something of the same character, but I hope not as expensive. These rifle ranges cost anywhere from $15,000 to $60,000, or $70,000. That at Sherbrooke is much smaller, and will cost $5,000 or $6,000. I may add that we have another vote of $20,000 for cheap ranges in small districts. It will be divided up in sums of from $200 to $500, to assist rural companies.

Many ranges are being constructed in an inexpensive way where one or two targets are sufficient. In these large ranges we have 40 or 50 targets ; in the Ottawa range I think there are 55 targets.


Andrew B. Ingram: I noticed a short time ago there was a landslide at Quebec. Can that landslide in any way affect the walls of the fortifications ?


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: No, it is on the front, next to the river. Those slides occur every year.
Some resolutions reported.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Wm. Mulock) moved the adjournment of the House.
Robert Laird Borden: What business is it intended to take up to morrow ?


The POSTMASTER GENERAL.: If there are any government Bills they will be proceeded with, and after that branch of the business is disposed of, we will proceed with the estimates, taking up Agriculture and that part referring to quarantine, and Professor Robertson's branches.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Ottawa, Friday, April 11, 1902.