azza1625/createdebate-arguments huggingface dataset:
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

If the end justifies the means, then the "greater good" is violated through the way , then I don't think we are talking about a greater good anymore. If the greater good is to tell the truth, and in order to do things you need to tell people a lie, then there is no more greater good present. Maybe historically it has been erratically believed that we need some sort of mythical creature in order to be "good". But I do not think that this "greater good" has brought much greatness to humanity in the long run, as it has given way to horrible things through fanatism and it has perpetuated lack of education in many areas related to science. It has also allowed governments to control populations through the use of those beliefs. It has also fostered artificial divisions between different cultures, eventualy leading to wars. Are these means justifiable ? and are the followers really giving our world a greater good? I don't think we need God anymore to know what is good or bad. I think people are capable to figure things out on their own.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

Then tell me why we haven't after thousands of years and what makes you think we every will? I know of only one thing that has, and that you deny.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

People allowed to think for themselves are able to think more clearly about tolerance towards others, compassion, and the common good more than religious people who are only taught to follow without questioning. The only reason why we haven't been able to "figure it out" is because we keep on hammering the issue of god through religion over and over and over and over.... Religion is present in every sphere and it makes it difficult for those who want to talk about god-less morality, as they are shunned as if it was something impossible. What do you think of a god-less morality?
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

LOL!Who said to tell the truth is the greater good? You're assuming that telling the truth always results in the greater good huh? I bet you can think of 1 billion ways in which a lie can work better.Again, I am not saying God is a lie. I am first trying to state whether or not belief in God for the masses is better than lack of belief... and then whether that belief should be promoted.You're now bringing religion into the argument. It's kind of annoying when people do that when it completely misses the point. But just for the sake of it... let me destroy it. it has given way to horrible things through fanatismThe key word in this is FANATISM. NOT RELIGION. A fanatic in ANYTHING will always result in extreme actions. Take PETA for example. They are not religious, but they can definately take a lot of shi far.It has also allowed governments to control populations through the use of those beliefs.Governments will always control populations. That is what they do. If it's not religion they're using, it will be something else. The GOVERNMENT is RESPONSIBLE for USING RELIGION, NOT RELIGION ITSELF!It has also fostered artificial divisions between different cultures, eventualy leading to wars.Whether you like it or not, people are ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE DIFFERENCES. These differences are ALWAYS GOING TO BE USED by PEOPLE OF POWER for THEIR OWN OBJECTIVES.Do you get the picture? Religion should not be taking the blame.I don't think we need God anymore to know what is good or bad. I think people are capable to figure things out on their own.Well atleast you've answered the question. However it's not really an argument.The point I've CONSISTENTLY made is that people are NOT able to figure out things on their own. That is why we have laws and rules. My point is that God is better at this than any human alive.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

Well first, since you are the one talking about a greater good, it would be nice to start with a definition or examples of a greater good. In my conception of a greater good I am assuming this means to uphold certain values, such as truthfulness, and thus I put this as an example. Sorry if that was not clear, perhaps you can clarify, what the greater good is and how we can identify what it is. Also, when you say that we shouldn't bring religion into the debate you must first explain why on your introduction to the debate you have us imagine that we are creating a religion. We should first agree on whether or not religion is an obligatory vehicle for a belief in God. It seems to me that in your argument followers of a god want to find ways to please this god, and thus will be compelled to follow rules. People can either then follow established religions or create personal "guidelines" and "rules" of their own, and this becomes their religion. What benefit can there be to society where people are creating their own guidelines to follow based on a subjective understanding of a God? Some people may say my god requires me to dance naked in the middle of the street and then... what is the benefit to society? Either way, as you say, without bringing religion into the question (or pretending to create a religion), there are many people out there, agnostics for example, who do believe in a creator but not necessarily some creator who wants anything from them... a god that is more of a passive uninvolved observer, than a ruler. These people thus, have no need to "please" him or follow "his" rules. And it doesnt mean that they people are lawless savages. The ability to understand what is good and bad for society, as I have mentioned before, has nothing to do with the belief in having a god to please or fear. A lot of people claim to believe in the possibility of a god, and yet not be religious, since the god they contemplate is one who doesn't provide systematized rules. The systematized rules that you mention, come from religion, NOT a belief in god. May I ask you why you believe that people are not able to figure things out on their own? You say that religion should not take the blame for a lot of the ills in society, but look how far religion has come and yet it doesn't seem we are learning how to get along. Maybe it is time to let people figure things out, and see what happens instead of getting stuck in the idea that people need some mythical being to tell them what to do.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

Not their understanding, but word for word, God's Words1. I just wonder how it is that some people have a direct line to "know" what god wants and what god says. there is no reason to see Buddha , Jesus or Muhammad as anything more than just very intelligent guys who had a burden in their hearts to guide people into a right moral pathway. Anyone with common sense and enough passion, and charisma can do this. Ghandi did not claim to be speaking god's words. he did claim to be inspired by the words of said prophets but by viewing their words as what he called "pure thoughts". why do you have to bring a "god" into the picture? morality has no need for god. 2. the words of the prophets you cite have value, but i feel that because they claim to be god-sent, their words become meaningless. people then have to choose who to believe... was jesus the son of god? or was he just a prophet? ... then religion becomes more than just about morality but about being "right" with some "god". does the mother of your example have to tell the kid that she is letting him fall because god told her to? why cant she just explain the logic behind it? it is enough.... we know that we shouldnt kill because it is common sense! not because we have to believe in someone who tells us that god talked to them last night. Since you do not want to use religion, then explain how the idea of god, outside of religious norms, is tied to morality. it seems that more than defending the need for having a creator/god, you are defending the need for organized religion. God could be viewed as something more sublime than an organized set of rules written down by some privileged men who had some sort of direct phone line to the all-mighty.... in my opinion morality need not to be tied to god. your argument is very confusing. are you defending religion, or god, or morality as means for the greater good? ... it seems to me that you believe that religions are legitimate creations of a god. if this is the case, this will be my last comment to you as there are too many contradictions in religions, in their norms, to even begin to accept that a higher being would have given them to us for our "guidance". if there was a higher being he probably has nothing to do with religions... and i repeat... morality does not need to be tied to a god. there are lot of ways to be educated into the "right" way of behaving that do not require having someone telling you that you will go to hell if you don't obey.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

1. These prophets MAY just be intelligent people as you said. But they have ALL claimed to be related to God in some way. If they ARE followers of God, then great. If they're NOT, then why have they 'used' God? THAT was my original argument.. the reasons for having God. (I've been completely sidetracked).2. The reason I do not want to bring in religion is for the reasons you've stated. There are several different religions all doing different things and as soon as we start discussing God's word as interpretted by these religions, we'll be arguing about religions and not God.The mother does not explain to the child because the child will not understand, it will just continue to cry and beg. In the same way we do not understand God's word, but in both circumstances the child and us people will benefit if we follow God's/mother.we know that we shouldnt kill because it is common senseSomeone rapes a child.. should he be killed?You go to war, should you kill?You loose your temper, should you kill?Someone is trying to kill you, should you kill?You've had enough of life, should you kill yourself?You're in a vegetative state, should you be killed?God will tell us the right answer no matter what. However people have different opinions on those questions and both will argue their side. Who's right and who's wrong. Nobody on earth truly knows the impact of the decision they've made. This goes to your education point too. You're telling me all the finest, most educated people on the planet make the choices? in terms of ethics, religion etc?
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

It is good to get back on track. ;) If they're NOT, then why have they 'used' God?I honestly think that the answer is a simple lack of education. Whereas before people had to be threatened with floods and the wrath of a god to compel them to change their ways, now that we have more understanding about the world, we are able to find logical conclusions as to how we should act in certain situations. we are now able to think more critically about issues because we have more knowledge. Regarding the questions you post on the thou shalt not kill example, using the concept of god inhibits our critical thinking about how to solve such situations. The "word of god" is usually not enough to address such issues about euthanasia, abortion in case of rape, killing in war, or self defense. I seriously doubt that god will tell us the right answer no matter what. Whereas we can be allowed to arrive at logical conclusions about the issues of killing on a case to case basis, I dont think that we can know god's answers about these issues based on things that were written hundreds of years ago. Unless, again, you can prove that you have a direct line to god and that he is telling you what to do. This would be very subjective and you would have a hard time applying it to all of society. There was a case in Nicaragua a couple of years ago, where an 11 year old girl was raped, and because she had reached puberty, she got pregnant. In Nicaragua, people believe that the bible is the word of god. Churches of different denominations interpret this word for the people. However, the god had not mentioned anything about what to do in this situation... no mention of abortion. So churches, who claimed to know what god was saying, launched a fierce campaign against the abortion of the child... based on the fact that if the bible (the word of god) said thou shalt not kill then this applies in any situation and we shouldn't think critically about each issue and respond to it accordingly. The girl was 11 years old and incapable of taking care of the baby. The family of the girl lost the support of the community because they wanted the daughter to abort. The girl did not even understand what was going on. .... Anyway, just an example of how claiming that god says something can not be for the greater good. If the girl asks why she shouldn't be allowed to abort the answer will be because god says so. This kind of answer in itself is detrimental to the advancement of our own development of ethics and morality.I don't claim that educated people make good choices all the time, only that when we have more knowledge about situations, our choice will be more informed and this expands the possibility that it will be a better choice than an uninformed one. If we become more informed then we will solve the problem of just being like children who do not understand and need to follow blindly . This may have been the case in times when people thought that the world stood on pilars, but now we don't need more myths, we need more education so we can think critically about the impact of our desicions.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

Your example is hard to answer as I do not know all the ins and outs. BUT if we're going to take the thou shalt not kill for it then yes, she shouldn't have an abortion. It may not be the right thing to do, but it is the right thing to do. It's like that Jehovah who died because she wouldn't take a blood transfusion.I think the basis of your argument is that God's word cannot be applied to modern day society and in a way you're right, because the world is moving so fast these days that every decade shows more change than it used to a few hundred years ago and that half the things today aren't even mentioned in the past i.e. abortion, cloning etc. However I would say that it's only people's mentality that is different to the past. We tend to think we know the answers, or questions and that we're a lot smarter than we used to be. In some ways we are, and in some ways we're not, some things are better and some things are worse but I think in MOST aspects these 'rules' are still as applicable as the past. Give me a few examples of todays problems which you think cannot be solved through religion and I'll try and explain as best I can as to how religion can be applied to it.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

The basis of my argument is that God's word (whatever religion it is you are talking about) impedes our ability to reason about the consequences and impacts of our choices/actions. Any formalized set of rules does this when people are told to follow without questioning because something is supposed to be "good". Cases come up over and over again in everyday life, not just in difficult cases like abortion, euthanasia, cloning, where we confront the fact that reality is NOT black and white. But god's word and formalized rules want to simplify reality for us and this is where they fail. You should watch this ted talk about the ability to solve problems v.s. the ability to follow rules. Claiming to "know the answer" is the characteristic of zealous religious people, who believe that a rule given by god is THE only answer. The scientific reasoning is precisely to question those things that may seem as "absolutes". Regarding knowledge or education it would be absurd to say that we now know less things about the world than we did in the past. So, in the past - in the midst of more ignorance, it made sense to believe that if you don't worship a certain way god will get angry and stop the rain and your crops will die; but now, such a simple minded reason behind the need to behave well would not be accepted as we know more about how the world works. In this sense, we have more information needed to make decisions. I don't think it is necessary to think about difficult or modern day examples (cloning, abortion, euthanasia) and figure out how to apply religion to it. In every day decisions we are always forced to "bend" the words in the book because they can't provide answers. Then people argue that it is their own "personal" relationship to god what matters -- it would seem as if everyone has a different conception of God anyway, these words are then subjective and left to interpretation. No one is adhering to the words strictly because the words are too narrow. The world is not black and white. Teaching ethics and moral behavior requires a lot more than making people behave like sheep.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

I agree with this guy 100% and he's right with some of the declines in modern society. But he said himself; we need some rules, just not too many and use practical wisdom to make the right choices. I guess we can apply that to some of the scenarios we have. My bad if I've made it seem like everything is black and white (i guess I might've) but it was only to keep the debates as simple as possible.One thing you're assuming is that people are smarter now than they used to be. There's no way of knowing and in many cases this is true, especially when you look at western civilisations, however when you look to the east, we could say they're just as bright as we are, from the egyptians and greeks, to indians and chinese to aztec and mayan (very little knowledge on them btw). Not only did they have numerous powerful and compelling minds, but they also based their reasoning around God and religion. However religions were completely different in those days compared to the religions these days and so to take my argument one step further it is that belief in non-Abrahimic Gods are for the greater good.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: No, for the greater good.

I think again, to dispute the assumption that im saying people now are smarter than before is wrong. Im saying people now have more information than before, and more information leads to better choices. Of course egyptian, mayan, and chinese civilizations developed at an amazing rate and with surprising quality for our standards. But the eqyptians were also burying their dead in huge tombs (the pyiramids) and along with exhorbitant amounts of gold, why? because their belief in gods entailed a belief in an afterlife. I think they could have spent their resources and time building other structures that would have helped their community , rather than tombs. (though now we admire them just for cultural value). So it is these kind of behavior that I argue stems from a lack of knowledge about the world and how it works. However it doesn't mean we are "smarter" now. Since there are religious believers who continue behaving in the same supersticious ways... When they get sick they pray instead of going to the doctor, etc. But these behavior now should be inexcusable because now we have more knowledge about the world, so it is more like a choice. Back in the time of the Mayans, it may be more acceptable for them to come up with rituals to call for the rain, since they dont have the scientific knowledge about what makes rain fall. But now, when people engage in the same kind of things, it just makes no sense at all because there is more knowledge out there about how things really work. As far as morality goes, I actually think that something like the hamurabi code where the crime was punished in direct retribution, was quite innovative and logical and we could benefit from it. If you steal, we will cut off your hand. End of story. No need for god to induce people to act morally. ;) Just a good execution of the law. Of course this is not the ideal... and again, things are never just "black and white", so in the end it may not work in our day. The ideal would be for us to think critically about our actions. To have an awareness about the common good. We dont need an image of "god" in this, just as we dont need a hamurabi code. We need something more complex.... a reform in the educational system for example... Belief in non-abrahamic gods for the greater good. hmmm. that makes this more interesting, but still based on my argument above, you can deduce that the image of god is unnecessary. We all have an understanding of god that is different from each other. And there is no way of proving which god is right. Groups of people, cults, have come up with new "gods" and then followers are so blind that they end up committing crazy things in the name of these gods. Think mass suicides. This is the problem with the concept of "god"...any god, impedes rational thinking.
Debate: Is belief in God for the GREATER GOOD?
Side: Yes, for the greater good.

Mass suicides is a completely modern and retarded thing for a VERY minor percentage of the population.. that REALLY shouldn't be used as an example specially when it's with the brainwashed... NO CULTS SHOULD!! GRR!!The followers of non-abrahimic religions cannot be expected to know everything scientifically just as we don't know everything scientifically. You're right, their rituals weren't 'scientifically' correct but not everything we do know is 'good' either. This whole global warming fiasco is something we're all contributing to everyday and don't you think that's a whole lot worse than a few 'stupid dances' to make it rain? Why is it that we continue to do all the things damaging the environment even when we KNOW it's damaging the environment? We're much more informed, yet we're doing bad right? If we are much better without God and are able to make better decisions why is it that we seem to disagree more and more?It's all about mentality. Back then, things were a lot more black and white and todays society has created more and more colours, not just because of more information, butit's peoples inabilities to make the right decisions. That is because there isn't really a basis to say whether or not what they want is right or wrong because as you said it's up to people to make the right choice and less and less people are making the right choices.You talked about how Egyptians could've spent their resources better... We're constantly wasting resources, not just on pointless research, but on things which will probably be harmful 20years down the line. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Fast Food, Petrol, CFC's, Waste etc. etc. All societies have their negatives, but I would prefer to dance for rain or bury people in tombs or pray for life than accept sodomy, sell my soul for money, have no respect for myself...