Debate: Which side Government or No government
Side: Government society

These two can be handled by private certification, like the UL now.Sure but in the free market the UL has to make profits, can be owned by the oligarchy. If you mean damage to property, there are ways to mitigate and recompense these outside of government. They are a bit cumbersome, but possible.Yeah, but I don't think they will work. In the free market everything is driven by profit and there is not a lot of profit in environmental protection. There is much more profit in environmental destruction. To me "cumbersome, but possible" describes most aspects of free market. We can hope it works but realistically, would the informed public every vote for such a thing "hoping" that it works?I'm not ignoring your point. I'm pointing out that the fact that you believe these things are important is no license to force others to act as though they mirrored your value system. How you wish others to act is irrelevant. They have a right to act according to their value systems, so long as they allow others to do the same.Point taken. Part of my argument that the average man is not smart enough, informed enough or have enough financial freedom to "do the optimal thing". Part of the point of the formation of civilized society is to use "experts" to make the best decisions so that society can be the "best". Modern civilized societies are not about social Darwinism or individual rights, they are about trying to make a good structure that won't implode after every 100 years.I will choose the value of my security company, according to my needs, and means. As will others. Yes, I would leave the array of choices to the sum of thousands of choices, instead of a single self-appointed "expert".Why? Why not vote on an actual expert in a specific election instead of just letting the market be driven by the "mundane" actions of "shoppers"? Simply picking experts is much more efficient that waiting for experts to slowly emerge from the shopping process. The "shoppers" would pick Justin Beiber to be the security chief? Concentrating the voting process to discreet periods seems more efficient than basically having to vote with every minute of every day? The average person is too busy to have to constantly be "perfectly informed" all the time.UL works because the government forces products to be certified. BBB is already criticized because it's supported by the every businesses that it's supposed to be monitoring. I'm sure there would be dozens of BBBs, all supported by various businesses touting the value of one business over another. In a free market wouldn't a good business model be to sell a "bad" overpriced "wonder product", then just close up shop once the public catches on? Wouldn't this practice be bad for all other honest businesses? Seems like the net effect over time would be a public very un-trusting of business making competing with monopolies much harder.If it affects only your own property, why not?The pollution of the ocean, groundwater, air, etc does not only effect your property. It's very hard to pollute in a way that does not effect the entire ecosystem.Why not?Liberty and LaborHow can a iron worker quit his job when there is no other ship builder in his town? It's much easier for the the capitalist to find a new worker than for the worker to find a new job.If you mean the government privileged labor unions such as were seen recently in Michigan protesting right to work, then I say good riddance.No, I mean look at the income of the working class. I don't want to debate unions (the debate is already complex enough) but despite unions and that fact that on average unions workers are the only ones making a living wage, the worker is making less today than they were in the 60s while the cost of living is more. Workers are getting screwed because the capitalists are getting smarter and more efficient and the workers have no leverage.There will be a need for people to build the machines, and fix the machines.You can't look at the industrial revolution and say "look, people still had jobs". Secondly, creating machine that are built to replace labor is not the same as mechanizing one part of one industry.Name one big box that does not adhere to onerous government regulations, which it takes an army of lawyers with which to fully comply.The only reason big box stores have lots of layers is because they are trying to game system and they have a lot of public scrutiny.What onerous regulations does a small retail business have? A few hours of a lawyers time per year is all the small retail business owner needs.I don't think we age getting anywhere with this debate anymore? You don't seem willing to concede even the possibility of a single flaw with free market despite the long history of what many very smart people think really happens. I know you think government is to blame for everything and were going to have to agree to disagree on that point. I am quite willing to concede that the government has plenty of problems, but you cant throw the baby out with the bath water. Even if it turns out your correct on 75% of the arguments, free market would still be a disaster on the remaining 25%.