Debate: Modern music is contributing to the downfall of society.
Side: yes

Sigh. This will not be over quickly. Please attempt to shorten your response, as I do have other things to attend to. It amuses me that you responded to an obvious joke with such passion, having failed to read my first argument in the debate, but this is getting unmanageably big.Argue? There was no argument, you just admitted to being a stubborn nutjob who believes in government conspiracies and refuses to listen to science.See the word novel. Besides, I have had a long scientific debate with mahollinder on the issue. You think I want to do the same thing twice?I can understand though if you're frustrated on being called out about your lack of knowledge on a subject. I would be too if I regarded my own intelligence as highly as you do yours. Must be a great shock when you go into reality and find you are mistaken.There is a disparity between knowledge and Intelligence. Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think that capitalism and environmentalism are incompatible?Did I say that? If I did then I was mistaken and for that I apologise.Now obviously you don't listen to rap so the issue isn't as important to you, but Lupe is talking to people who grew up listening almost entirely to rap.Then surely the worth of the lyrics is entirely subjective? I have never referred to a girl as a bitch, nor do I associate with those who listen to rap music. If those who do wish to objectify themselves and each other, then so be it. If people are stupid enough to act according to the whims of Snoop Dog and 50 Cent, then they deserve everything they get. You must understand that to me and my peers, there is no issue with any of this. To that end, while the efforts of Lupe are commendable, his lyrics will forever be of no relevance. I completely understand your fascination with them, as you are (I assume) part of or close to the culture that is so blighted. But to me, his lyrics are as meaningful as the words of Karl Marx - Good for some, but not for me.These are people who freestyle with their friends on weekends (harder than it sounds by the way, only a couple of my friends are decent at it)What is freestyling?and many of whom see being discovered as a rap artist as the only way to get out of their situation.It clearly is if they are stupid enough to believe what you described to be the message of most rap.It's not news to anyone that most rap songs glorify lavish lifestyles, just turn on MTV cribs to see what I'm talking about.If as you say most rap is centred on this, surely my negative opinion of it is justified? There are one or two decent(ish) ABBA songs, but most of it is rubbish, so I still hate them. Even if I am wrong about Lupe, you have yourself admitted that the majority of the genre is materialistic, misogynistic crap. Lupe isn't allowed to criticize the fans of other artists, because that right is yours exclusively? Your logic is incomprehensible.Your incredulity is irrelevant. Lupe is an artist. In criticising his competitors, he is championing himself. That is quite annoying to me.How should he have responded if he sees a problem? "Um could you guys please stop making songs that degrade women? I would really appreciate that, thanks." Something tells me that this probably wouldn't get his message across to his listeners.As I recall, Walk On didn't get Aung San Suu Kyi released, but Obama's speeches about change got him elected.Nor does your argument about the theme being important to you really undermine the song's message or lyrics. I care little about the issues of 19th century industrial workers in England, yet I can still recognize Hard Times by Charles Dickens as an extremely well written and important novel. You would compare Lupe to Dickens? Dickens was an exceptional writer. Lupe doesn't even come close.As far as the self promoting part (A), even Shakespere bragged about himself in his sonnets. Your arguments about envy and spite are unfounded as well since the entire tone of the song is humorous. Once again, should he be politely asking the other rappers who write songs like Move Bitch to kindly stop degrading women? Face it, the only reason you have issue with this is because you went into this debate with certain notions about rap, and regardless of what evidence is shown to you, you will see what you want.The majority of your arguments have been your own opinion, yet you argue that the quality of lupe's writing is beyond subjective.I told you that doesn't matter. We are trying to move beyond subjectivity a little.At some points you do, but at others you talk about cultural context.Were you to argue something like: "I don't like most rap because it is simplistically written and I disagree with the themes presented by many mainstream rappers" then you would have a legitimate argument. Actually that sounds familiar...Is there an inference in that?What, you realize that New York wasn't a good example?No. As I recall you posted many examples of your own favourites.What confused me though is that I gave you the oppurtunity to choose any song in any genre, and you chose the one you did. As it confuses me that your favourite genre is rap. I didn't realise you wanted me to ruminate for hours and to pluck from my archives the very greatest song in my possession.All along the watchtower by Bob Dylan was written in the spirit of the Beat movement of the 60's and the lyrics can be classified more as a poem then the lyrics to a song (although the song itself is good too). I am killing myself now. That was my first choice. My point with this being that finding another good song in and of itself doesn't show that Lupe's song is poorly written, unless it is somehow leaps and bounds better. Or to put it another way: no one could argue that Ted Kaczynski wasn't a bad man because Osama Bin Laden is worse.And yet your first argument seemed to imply that rap wasn't bad because there were, in your opinion, a few good examples.I did ask for an example of a song that does have good lyrics though, and if your point was valid then that song should not even be comparable lyrically to Lupe's song.Tenuous logic. If I think the lyrics of Dumb it down are bad, then it stands to reason that I could choose any song I liked to compare it to.First, the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek. Second, he's not the only one since nearly every reviewer agrees. And even those who think his album The Cool was only good, and not great still point to "Dumb it Down" as a very intelligent and well written song. Even Jay-Z, one of the most respected rappers of all time, has called him a "genius rapper.Those sites were focused on rap. As most of it is so awful, it is only natural that something different would receive positive reviews from them. Regardless, I place little faith in internet reviews, or indeed reviews in general. They rarely have any bearing on what audiences want from something. The guy is having fun with this rap, and if you actually paid attention you would see this. He's confident yes, but not to the point of "spite and anger" as you proclaim. Now, maybe your not used to music like this, so I can understand if you didn't immediately pick up on the tone, but the chorus alone should have clued you into that.Why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't like rap, bad grammar or that cultural context? If the writing does not entertain me, then why should I consider it to be well written, just because it deals with a problem that I don't care about? To clarify, I am racist; I care very little for black people or the rap-induced misogyny of their youth.I said that you may not be used to the language. Maybe you are and I'm mistaken, and if so great. The song will be easier to understand. With your petty complaints about grammar though, I'd say it's a good bet you aren't too familiar with it.Unrelated but I'll comment anyway: while To Kill a Mockingbird is a great novel, and certainly an American classic that deals well with race in the American south, Mark Twain's novel is historically more important because it is one of the first major literary critiques of the racism that existed in the south. Hemmingway said: "All modern American literature comes from" Huck Finn. I also enjoyed it because I am partial to satirical works, which is why Hard Times is my favorite 19th century British novel, and one of the reasons why I enjoy "Dumb it Down."I'm not making this debate any longer than it needs to be. If you wish to debate on the cultural worth of past novels, then create such a debate.You skipped a part. I don't know if this was intentional or accidental but here is the full lyric:The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them thereTook both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him hereThe first line makes reference to the previous line when it uses the metaphor of the car (which I discussed in my previous post). I also talked about how he uses the idea of a minstrel show to compare how the shallow messages of current rappers compare to the shallow and racist portrayal of blacks in these shows. The next part, about roadkill in the grill could be referring to how other rappers are like roadkill in a car that he is driving or, since he gave over the wheel in the last verse it could be that the listeners/rappers are failing to avoid the BS (the deer and chickens) that plague much of rap. The last section of this line is likely referring to Lupe himself when he says he is trill (a slang term coming from the combination of the words "true" and "real" meaning that the rapper is well respected) and sincere.The second line of the section you quoted is, as I stated previously, is an allusion to the Matrix. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Neo, the main character (played by Keanu Reeves) is offered two pills (one red, one blue) by a man in a trench coat. The blue pill would transport Neo back to his normal life (which we find out is just an illusion created by computers). The red pill would take Neo out of the "fake" world and into the real one. Lupe, by saying that he is taking both pills, says that he will remain in the rap game, while staying real at the same time.Now I'm not sure what you found wrong with either of these lines, but I'm here is my interpretation of each if that clears anything up.Thank you. Welcome, to the desert, of the real.In New York freedom looks likeToo many choicesThis is clearly a reference to how much there is to do in New York, as well as a statement about how freedom, one of America's most important values, is so clearly exemplified in the daily life of New York. He also gives a slight negative connotation to the idea that there are too many choices, which probably refers to the whole idea that in our modern life we are offered so many options that it can be overwhelming. Reminds me of the line (I forget who said it) 200 channels, and not one good thing on T.V.Correct.In New York I found a friendTo drown out the other voicesVoices on the cell phoneVoices from homeVoices of the hard sellVoices down the stairwellIn New YorkThe frothing maelstrom of people that comprises the population of New York produces a cacophony so overwhelming as makes it seem like a vast ocean. Each is indifferent to the bombardment of voices that so unnerved the singer. They come from all angles, a relentless wave of conversation and advertisement. Modernisation has made the life of every person stressful, fast and hectic, but over time their indifference has perpetuated and exacerbated the problem. However, large as it is, it is made up of individuals. Each unique, each with friends, enemies, lovers and haters. Within each is the potential for a new friend, who will help the singer adjust to the city and the New way of life that comes in the box.Just got a place in New YorkThis is an allusion to the difficulty one experiences in attaining an apartment in New York, as well as to the pride and accomplishment that comes with success. It also suggests that in a materialistic world, securing a dwelling in the capital of the material, New York, is the ultimate achievement, something which can be boasted about to any and all. It may also reference the seemingly casual way boastful people speak about their achievements, in the hope of making themselves seem more impressive and successful.In New York summers get hotWell into the hundredsYou can't walk around the blockWithout a change of clothin'In summer, New York is transformed. Summer is one of the most important times of the year for the fashion industry. The heat refers to both the actual temperature, and the heat of the competition between designers and their customers. Every day a new piece of clothing, to the extent that people change their clothing every block so that they can never be seen in the same clothes as before. The well into the hundreds suggests that the number of people who practice this is very high (in context of temperature. It may also, as you said, refer to the need to change persona depending on your present company.Hot as a hairdryer in your faceHot as a handbag and a can of maceNew YorkI just got a place in New YorkA good description of the summer, but more importantly it continues the fashion metaphor. The hair-dryer brings hairstyles into the song. The handbag and the can of mace represent other important, "hot" items. Handbags are the ultimate expression of feminine materialism, while the can of mace they contain is an allusion to the growing fear of sexual assault, and the methods of defending themselves that women have come up with. It may, as I said before, be a joke about a sexual advance the singer made, which amounted to a spray in the face from the "handbag" (a slang term for fashionable women).In New York you can forgetForget how to sit stillTell yourself you will stay inBut it's down to AlphavilleNot straightforward at all. In New York, as you said, there is much to do. On one level the singer refers to this, but the other level is much darker. It makes an allusion to the prevalence of drugs and addiction in New York. You tell yourself that you will "stay in" (addicts frequently tell themselves that they will quit or stay sober), but that it is down to Alphaville (a shop), which is a new place to visit. It represents the move to new things, new addictions, that occur despite the best attempts of the addict. He is, on a third level, saying that he is addicted chiefly to New York. The Irish have been comin' here for yearsFeel like they own the placeThey got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floorThey even got the policeAs you said. The Irish wield considerable influence in New York.Irish, Italians, Jews and HispanicsReligious nuts, political fanatics in the stewHappily, not like me and youThat's where I lost you, New YorkNow, the plot thickens. This refers to staggering number of nationalities and ideologies that inhabit New York.It is overtly condemning the bigotry of the religious and political systems that exist there. Beneath though, is a humorous observation that despite the unpleasantness of these ideologies, it is better to belong to one. This is evidenced by the line Happily, not like me and you. Superficially it appears to be thankful that they are not part of it. What it is really saying is that these idealists are happy, and in deciding not to belong to one of the groups, the singer and his wife are effectively cutting themselves off from society and happiness. The fourth line states that the singer lost his wife there. This either means that the wife joined a group and ostracised the singer, or that the singer joined a group and that the wife, disgusted, left him.In New York I lost it allTo you and your vicesStill I'm stayin' on to figure outMy mid life crisisThis refers to the hollowness of material pleasures when those who matter to you leave. The singer says he has lost it all, meaning his wife. The second line may refer to part of the argument he had with her, in which he said that her vices were holding them back, and blames her for their split. He says then that despite her loss, he is staying in New York, to figure out why he is unhappy despite living in the city of his dreams.I hit an iceberg in my lifeYou know I'm still afloatYou lose your balance, lose your wifeIn the queue for the lifeboatThis is his conclusion after his soul-searching. It is an extended metaphor. His life was in his regard, unsinkable and perfect. the Titanic was the epitome of luxury, with all the trappings of wealth and high society, as was his life. But, like the ship, his life hit an iceberg when his wife left him and he realise that it was in reality her that was making him happy, not New York. The loss of balance is both a joke and a continuation of the story. The joke is that New York is expensive and will drain your bank balance. The story is continued in that he was losing all control to his addiction to New York and its earthly pleasures. The last line reflects the selfishness of people when they are in dire straits. You got to put the women and children firstBut you've got an unquenchable thirst for New YorkThis refers to the crisis of priority which the singer beheld in New York. He says that the inhabitants are more concerned with wealth and career than they are about raising their children and maintaining happy families. He says the lifestyle creates an insatiable hole in the person, which in reality can only be filled by love, but that people ignore this and instead try to fill it with more of New York, creating a never-ending tragedy. It also serves to continue the story of the singer's relationship with the city.In the stillness of the eveningWhen the sun has had it's dayI heard your voice whisperin'Come away nowWhen the pleasure is gone, the glory utterly spent and the deplorableness of his situation is laid bare, the singer realises that he has made a mistake in choosing New York over his love (Paloma Faith's New York was similar). He hears the promise of forgiveness form his wife and we are left wondering whether he will accept it. I did not include it, but at the very end, there is a whisper "New York". Suggesting that like any addiction, the singer will never be rid of the temptation of New York.Now, as you can imagine,that took some time to type, but I hope the analysis does not fall on deaf ears. There are many levels to the song, and I have not covered all of them, but I think you can see that there is a lot more to this song than the superficial story. This, in my opinion, is far superior to the insular message of Dumb it Down.I just know that on this site, you tend to act like someone whose opinion of himself is larger than the highest sky scrapers in New York.Clever.