azza1625/createdebate-arguments huggingface dataset:
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: a woman's right to choose

"If there are health complications or she dies, its as much the womans fault as it is the mans."Are you serious? Not everyone is aware of every possible health issue prior to getting pregnant. I had four flawless pregnancies, but my fifth had me bedridden with sever edema and blood pressure issues."After all she made the choice to have the kid."Again. Are you serious? What if she didn't choose to have a kid. What if they used a condom and she was on the pill. Accidents do happen."She wasn't at gun point and she could've gotten out of any dangerous situation had there been one."Dangerous situations aren't always forseen...again from personal experience...'crazy' doesn't always rear it's ugly head from the beginning.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

"Are you serious? Not everyone is aware of every possible health issue prior to getting pregnant. I had four flawless pregnancies, but my fifth had me bedridden with sever edema and blood pressure issues."First, i'm sorry to hear about the issues with your fifth. That type of stuff is never fun, and it's really spontaneous too.Along those lines, I've seen two of my friends both get complications days before labor (blood pressure issues), forcing them to have a cesection (sp?). But they chose to go through the pregnancy when they found out, so they made a choice which happened to result in that.Since they made the choice that led to that, it must've been their fault. And that's despite the fact that they were unaware of what would happen prior to making that choice."What if she didn't choose to have a kid. What if they used a condom and she was on the pill. Accidents do happen."Birthing a child is an accident? It's the womans choice whether she wants to have the kid or not. I'm not saying that she chose to get pregnant..."Dangerous situations aren't always forseen...again from personal experience...'crazy' doesn't always rear it's ugly head from the beginning."True. I hate crazy people.Really, all i'm trying to say here is that birthing a child should always be a womans choice. But, if she is pregnant and in any kind of relationship, she should definitely tell her partner about it, and not just secretly get an abortion without telling him (unless her life is on the line).In the end, when you're in a relationship you should've talked about those things. If not, well then you kinda asked for the trouble it might cause.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

So, it's her fault for getting pregnant which makes her give up the right to her own body. She could prevent her death or health problems, of course, but she should have thought about that before she let a man have sex with her. I see, I see. Women give their rights up at conception; just because the man is under no risk for going through the same act he gets to make the decision over her life. Because, you know, it's her fault for letting him take control over her uterus. I completely understand now! Women don't have a choice after they get pregnant; they give up their rights! You have certainly opened by eyes. You are not really explaining, of course, why the woman has to make all...and I mean ALL of the sacrifices of pregnancy. Seems sort of a raw deal, ya know, they both get a few minutes or hours of pleasure and then the woman goes through months of pain and sickness, then a day or so of intense pain, possible health complications, and even death. But it's fair...as you have pointed out, because they both made the choice.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

And will you go to jail for manslaughter if the pregnancy results in her death? What if there are health complications, are you responsible for that, will you be forced to pay-out?And the odds of that happening are? Extremely low.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

That would all be decided in court in front of a jury of your peers. If the health risks are too dangerous, wouldn't you think that the woman's atorney would bring it up in court? That could very well be what decides if the child is born or not. And if you want to make it easier and less time consuming, just say "she is unable to have the baby because of these reasons. . . " there. End of case.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

There are some major problems with that line of thinking:First of all, that whole situation would be unconstitutional. You would have to amend the constitution to give the power of denying abortions to the courts.Secondly, you are now advocating the ability of both the man and the legal system to have power over a woman's body and her very life. That, in itself, is disturbing. Courts make mistakes all of the time; in this case there isn't even a crime being committed, why put a woman's life in hands other than her own?Lastly, health complications can arise without notice, without warning, without foreknowledge. Birth is always risky, there are always mild impacts on women's health, but anything could happen that would endanger the woman's long-term health, well-being, and life. Complications could arise weeks before the birth, what then? Would you have this woman, while in the throws of late pregnancy and all of its problems, get her lawyer to petition to court for the ability to abort? What if it is too late to protect her? How long would it take for the court to decide?But besides that, again, you've decided that the people who get to decide whether the woman's life is worth being put at risk is not the woman herself but her husband and male-dominated courts. That's rather oppressive, rather disturbing, and unbelievably simplistic and cold.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

Are you bloody kidding me? There is extreme pain, physical and mortal danger, and the ability (and likely-hood) of the man simply dropping his responsibilities and leaving the mother to raise the child.Even if the man was serious about rearing the child; he is not going to go through the pain and danger of child-birth. The rate (2004) of "Maternal Mortality" (Death by pregnancy) is 13 out of 100,000 thousand. It isn't likely, but it is certainly a problem.http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/80743.php Even if the pregnancy didn't result in death there are a number of common and likely health impacts that range from near-term, long-term, and permanent damage. Men, however, have a 0% chance of dieing as a direct result of pregnancy, there are no health risks, no physical sacrifices, nothing. Men do not have a say; men do not get to control how women use their bodies; especially when the woman's life is at stake. Unless men are under the same risks the fact that they blissfully ejaculated into a woman does not entitle them to control over her uterus, her health, and in some cases her life.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

what about... his child? you talk all about the mother, nothing about the child that is both of theirs....13%? that's actually too little for anyone to care about. so why are you caring?i think, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnate... she should probably not have sex. especially with a dude who may not want her offing his spawn.keep in mind, i'm pro abortion.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: a woman's right to choose

"if a woman doesn't want to be pregnate... she should probably not have sex."By this reasoning, people should only have sex when they want to produce a child. Or does that just apply to women?Try again.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

nope, of course you decide to ignore everything else and just attack one simple phrase that can mean anything.the point is, that's his child too. if she thinks it's a "burden" to have a child, maybe she should be fuckin' a guy who's okay with her killing his kid.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

That .13% is 31,000 women a YEAR. Over the course of ten years that is 310,000 women (larger than many cities in this country). I guess if 31,000 women a year aren't important to you, that's your problem. The fact that 31,000 women a year die from pregnancy and a total of 0 men do also doesn't seem to matter to you. Oh well, no big deal, those women shouldn't have had sex if they didn't want their lives to be decided by men."i think, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnate... she should probably not have sex. especially with a dude who may not want her offing his spawn."I don't see how this gives a man the right to decide her fate and essentially control her uterus. You could just as easily say that if the dude didn't want to have his fetus aborted he shouldn't have gotten a woman pregnant who didn't want children.The only thing that tips the scales is the fact that 0.0% of men are at risk from birth and go through none of the inherent pain while .13% of women could die, all of them have to go through the massive pain of child birth, and all women have their health impacted in some way due to it. You may be pro-abortion, but you are decidedly anti-woman.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

the problem is that you're totally ignoring the third party in this situation.i'm not too worried about the dude actually. i'm more worried about the kid. it's bad enough that i'm for abortion, but at least a guy who cares about the life of his child could save the thing.but no, don't worry about innocent lives that have nothing to do with it... don't care about the guy who wants to save his child. nope, you just care about your .13%. more die from car accidents. more die from just about anything really.and how am i anti-woman? how is wanting both parents to decide on whether their kid should be murdered or not anti-woman? if anything... you're anti-father.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

First of all, you are going down the path of utter ridiculousness. You started with wanting men to have a say and now you've gone to "abortion is murder", and you are pro-abortion? So is this really about opening up another avenue to keep abortions from occurring? Is this really about the father's right to choose? Or are you just grasping at anything to justify your point of view?I'm not getting into whether or not abortion is murder, that's for another debate entirely. We are talking about a man's say in the matter. If you think he should have a say because abortion is murder we are dealing with a much larger issue than his say. At any rate, it is not his child; it is the possibility of having a child with this fetus or zygote that they both conceived. You are right, women are more likely to die from a number of different things. Of course, just because heart disease kills more women than car accidents it doesn't give men the right to force women to drive a car when men have no chance of dieing in a car accident. Sure, women aren't likely to die from birth, but it is impossible for men. You, of course, ignore the fact that all births are hazardous (though not life-threatening), all involve long periods of pain, discomfort, sickness, and physical and direct mental problems (post-partem depression). The whole point is that men go through none of the pain of birth but all of the pleasure. He may want to protect the possibility of a zygote he fertilized becoming his child but he doesn't have a say due to the fact that he makes no physical sacrifice, is under no danger, and shares in none of the pain. I am not anti-father, I am anti fathers who feel their sperm are invading armies which, when planted in zygotes, expand their territory into the woman's body. I put fathers under no danger or control by other people, you feel it is perfectly alright to force women to go through a painful and possibly permanently harmful process, you feel it is perfectly alright to take control over their body because...well...you change your story constantly. Now abortion is murder and the father is trying to save his poor, defenseless son from an evil mother? I am really not getting your point anymore.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

it's not so much as baby murder as it is murdering his son. if a baby is gonna get murdered, i want both parents to agree on it.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: men have no say

"i think, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnate... she should probably not have sex. especially with a dude who may not want her offing his spawn."So, let me understand here, you state that she shouldn't have had sex? Or better yet, she should discuss the man's stance toward the "spawn" in the event that such may occur before she has sex? Don't put the blame on the woman and then tell her that she must give up her uterus because the man wants his "spawn"."keep in mind, i'm pro abortion."To be pro-abortion, one must be for an abortion for every pregnancy and kind of discounts that any man should have a choice about his "spawn". Pro-abortion is not about choice, it's an absolute only option.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

You said...Men, however, have a 0% chance of dieing as a direct result of pregnancy, there are no health risks, no physical sacrifices, nothing.While it may be true there are no physical sacrifices, there are numerous psychological and financial sacrifices that a man makes. Having a child isn't easy for anyone. Not for the woman or the man. Then there's the adjustment of having a kid, and let's not forget the fact that the man may have mental problems (like bi-polar) which might make him unable to properly raise a kid.Then there's the financial. If a woman has a child and the man leaves her, she can get child support from that man. What if the man is supporting his wife and can barely make it as it is. Having a kid will only amplify that and cause him to possibly work 80 hour weeks for years.Of course there are other things as well. for instance, if the man is of faith, he may not want his future child to die. because the baby was made 50% from the man, shouldn't he at least have a say in what happens?While i'm pro-abortion, i think a man should at least know and have a say in what goes on. But the final decision shouldn't be his.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

Did you really read my entire argument? Because you misrepresented it.I never once said a man should force a woman to do anything. I don't know where you got that bit of information from.You also tried to say..."What you want is two people having an equal vote but, if there is dissent, the man gets to be the tie-breaker. Essentially, this gives the man the say and the woman no say at all."That wasn't what I said at all. Take a look at my argument and check out that last sentence. It says a man should have a say in it but the choice shouldn't be his.So why are YOU making things up?As far as the 80 hour work week, you obviously have never known a man to work that much. I've known many. Maybe its because of my latin heritage (with woman more often then not, acting as stay at home moms).Oh and the child support thing, I know a guy who lives in a suite and works 2 jobs because he pays child support for three kids. Yes, it's his fault for having three kids (i'm not saying it's not his fault). But sometimes the courts aren't as fair as you might think they are.And you obviously aren't giving men enough credit.Yes, woman sacrifice a lot. And when its a single mother, she really sacrifices a lot. But it was her choice to have the kid even though she probably couldn't support him. She made her choice, regardless if the man was around or not.But you act like men never sacrifice a thing... or that there's no such thing as a single father. I'm grateful for every sacrifice my father made for me. And he made quite a number of them, too. Arguably as many as my mother.It seems that to you, a man should have no say at all in the matter. That his opinion shouldn't even count. Really?So you're basically saying that a woman could pop a hole in a condom and get pregnant if she wants kids, and never once tell or consider the man. Or that if a woman is pregnant, that she doesn't have to tell the father that she is.I guess she doesn't 'have' to, but it doesn't make it right. Of course there are situations where the woman would fear for her life if she told the man. In that case, i agree she shouldnt have to tell him.But if this is a normal relationship, the man SHOULD know when the woman is pregnant and tell her his opinion on the matter.He shouldn't force her to do anything - that's her choice. But he definitely should know about what's happening and at least have a say in the decision making process.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

Much of debate is using your oponents momentum against them. Or, in other words, twisting what they say to your advantage. (;Bloody rotten hell hole we live in when people go and do that though. (;
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: we sue the bastards

I'm a little surprised that this conversation is still going on. Men can't have babies and they don't get to tell women what to do with their bodies, even if he is the father. Please accept this and move on.The idea that a man should sue the mother of his fetus is laughable. It would violate her right to privacy as well as doctor-patient confidentiality. She is entitled to make decisions regarding her own body privately and without having the issue dragged into a courtroom. Furthermore, if she was under some sort of ridiculous "legal" contract and secretly received an abortion, the doctor would be placed in an ethical minefield and would risk losing his medical license. Even if I agreed that men have a legal right to protect the fetus, I don't think there's a way to implement it without seriously compromising the rights of the woman. It is an unfair situation, but there's practically nothing to be done about it.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

You're miss the point here BlueStar. It's not a matter of a man having control over a woman's body, but instead a man having some say in the future of a child that is 50% his.A random guy shouldn't have the right to walk up to a woman and say, "You can't have an abortion," yes, but the potential father of the baby has just as much a right over the unborn child as does the mother.And to say that a father wouldn't have a right to sue a mother under such conditions because "It would violate her right to privacy as well as doctor-patient confidentiality" is laughable in and of itself. Privacy isn't a factor here because the child (or fetus, whichever way you want to take it) is not just the mother's, but the father's too.For a mother to go and abort a baby without telling the father is in some ways the equivalent to having a joint checking account at a bank and having one party member terminate it without letting the other one know. The mother's ownership of her body isn't an issue here when a joint effort was made to help create the child.And that repeated "joint-effort" or "joint-ownership" viewpoint is what you're missing in all of this and is the key reason as to why a man should have a choice in abortion.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: men have no say

"...but the potential father of the baby has just as much a right over the unborn child as does the mother."Except that you're forgetting that the embryo is the potential life, and not a stand-alone organism until birth. The embryo is a mass of differentiated cells that are a part of a woman's uterus - there is no legal right for a man to be involved in the process."And to say that a father wouldn't have a right to sue a mother under such conditions because "It would violate her right to privacy as well as doctor-patient confidentiality" is laughable in and of itself."Why is it laughable? One is not a father because he deposited his sperm in a woman and it started a process. Legally, the man has no say, and legally, it is a right to privacy when it concerns any part of anyone's body. Just because sperm fused with a woman's egg doesn't make it 50% his, the uterus is 100% the woman's. "Privacy isn't a factor here because the child (or fetus, whichever way you want to take it) is not just the mother's, but the father's too."The uterus is the woman's - it's a right to privacy because of it, not because of a mass of differentiated cells."For a mother to go and abort a baby without telling the father is in some ways the equivalent to having a joint checking account at a bank and having one party member terminate it without letting the other one know."No, it's not."And that repeated "joint-effort" or "joint-ownership" viewpoint is what you're missing in all of this and is the key reason as to why a man should have a choice in abortion."It is not a joint-effort or joint-ownership. What does the man do to make a potential life? He deposited sperm in a woman. Beyond that, he has no more control until the potential life becomes real. As for joint-ownership - just because he deposited his sperm does not give him a right to a woman's uterus.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: a woman's right to choose

How many teen mothers have to drop out of high school to give birth? How about teen fathers?Giving birth to a child in unfavorable circumstances puts women at a far greater disadvantage than the men impregnating them. If a woman is trying to support herself while going to school, for example, she would have to take time off work and college to give birth and provide for the first few months (at least) of the child's upbringing. The impact this has on the course of a woman's life is profound. If the father is absent, the woman must rely on either familial or government support to survive these trying times. Even if the father is present and supportive, the woman is deprived of the empowering ability to provide for herself as well as the option to better her future.A man doesn't have to make a choice between survival/ self-sufficiency and childbearing. Women do.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have A Say

If those teen mothers had asked the teen fathers before the child was born whether the fetus should be aborted or not, how many teen mothers would there actually be?The teen decided to have the child, so whatever she goes through is her fault. But i bet if you ask most teen guys, they wouldn't want to have the kid. So asking what the guy thought and giving it consideration could actually help cut back on the number of teen pregnancies in the US.Either way, if i got a girl pregnant i would hope she would at least tell me.Regardless, this is a conversation couples should have BEFORE they ever have sex. This was a conversation i had with my girlfriend before we did. And we made sure both of us were on the same page.Why don't all couples just do this simple thing? It avoids a lot of problems and issues later on.In the end, a man has the right to know and the right to put his input into whatever the decision making process is. Obviously, the end decision isn't his, it's the womans.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men Have No Say

The man's choice must be exercised a few weeks or months ahead of time when he distributes his manliness.
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: Men should have their say in abortion

Yes, but if you read the above description, this debate is about when the male wants the child, is it right for the female to just abort it? So it is already past the point of having sex, it is already knowing you will have a baby and wanting to keep it, whereas your partner does not feel the same way. Is it fair for the woman to have the power to just abort the child?
Debate: Abortion: What About a Man's Choice?
Side: men have no say

Yes, but if you read the comment you disputed, the choice for the man is in advance of any sexual activity. I think it would only be fair to let the woman know that you think of her only as an incubator. It will cut down on any stress one may feel when woman says she is terminating unintended pregnancy.