azza1625/createdebate-arguments huggingface dataset:
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

"No, what you see are kids between 18-27 put in messed up situations who occasionally and understandably make mistakes. It is the openness and availability of records of these actions you object to. You are judging the nature of humans, not one military. Any individual may or may not piss on the corpse of someone who moments ago was trying to kill them, regardless of the uniform they have on."I thought you make a very thoughtful point here, and I was very disappointed that Gary chose to ignore it.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

nice man you are pretty much rite on with everything you said the media has become a cancer these days in about every manner and now they bring there dumb perspective when reporting there nonfactual info and feeding it to the dumb that take it as Gospel . later bro
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

This kind of behaviour is institutional in the US army, of that I have very little doubt.And that is why you are wrong. The U.S. army is made up of many many individuals, many of whom may have specific prejudices especially against the people that were just trying to kill them moments ago. The Army does it's best to reign in these prejudices because quiet frankly they can interfere with the Mission objective. I know this because I have personally sat through countless hours of power-point slideshows stressing the importance of "winning hearts and Minds", working with Local Nationals, and understanding the culture, and there are numerous codes that deal disciplinary action against soldiers who deliberately disrespect Afghans. I have have personally written up some of these Disciplinary Actions myself. The very fact that these Marines (not soldiers) are being punished is direct proof that the exact opposite of what you're saying is actually true.The U.S. army, and the U.S. Armed forces as a whole are constantly under a microscope, and are held to very high standards. You are only able to criticize because U.S. armed forces are very open about what they do, perhaps more so than virtually any other military on the Planet. I can tell you the U.S. Military is one of the few in the world that will provide medical aid to injured enemy combatants. Not many other Military forces will do that. We are over 1 million strong, so of course you are going to have some bigots in there, and understandably so. I can say with complete confidence that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So please continue to peddle your ignorance and I will be here to correct you.PS. Marines aren't part of the Army, fyi.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

"And that is why you are wrong."Really, so how do you explain Bradley Manning? He went to his superior before he releasing all those cables, but was told to forget about it, what about his show trial that's due shortley, it's going to be like Soviet Russia without the cameras, . You think theses are symtoms of a corrupt military?"against the people that were just trying to kill them moments ago."How do you know this? I've watche the video abiut 20 times, they look like very men, they have no weapons, none can be seen, all that seems to be there is an overturned wheellbarrow, I admit they probably were Taliban but what makes you so sure they weren't just killed in cold bold, and please don't reply with; they wouldn't do that because of honour, the whole world knows what you've done, just ask the people of Faluja."many of whom may have specific prejudices"I'm well aware that plenty of people the just join the army to emulate the hollywood movies they watched as children that programmed them to hate any person thats different to them."The Army does it's best to reign in these prejudices because quiet frankly they can interfere with the Mission objective."I have no doubt that true, but it's a PR campaign to the army, their fight a PR war, they don't care about the people, but they know if they massacre them and it get's out they'll lose even more credibility that they already have."I know this because I have personally sat through countless hours of power-point slideshows stressing the importance of "winning hearts and Minds","This reminds of an incident from the vietnam war but I won't go into it."The very fact that these Marines (not soldiers) are being punished is direct proof that the exact opposite of what you're saying is actually true."Please stop. No marine, or soldier has ever been sentenced to years in prison for the indiscriminate killing of innocents, this is because it's well understood that even though it's frowned upon (bad PR) it isn't really that bad."The U.S. army, and the U.S. Armed forces as a whole are constantly under a microscope, and are held to very high standards."World opinion saw through this a long time ago, didn't you get the memo?"You are only able to criticize because U.S. armed forces are very open about what they do, perhaps more so than virtually any other military on the Planet."I'm not trying to say the Russian or Chinese armies would behave any better, they might well behave worse, but they wreak as much havoc around the globe as you do."I can tell you the U.S. Military is one of the few in the world that will provide medical aid to injured enemy combatants."I'm sorry but do you think this is going to convince me? I've seen all these elaborate arguments used for IDF as well, bottom line, its all a smoke screen to convince people that "we're the good guys, now shut while we steal your livelyhood and kill any that resists"."I can say with complete confidence that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."I don't claim to know the inner working of the US military, but I am well aware of some the effects it's had on the world.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

I have no doubt that trueThen your whole argument is bunk. Do you know what it means for some action to be institutionalized? Obviously not. This is another instance of you making rash and sweeping judgements based on very little information, which seems to be a pattern with your arguments.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

"Then your whole argument is bunk."I don't beleive so."Do you know what it means for some action to be institutionalized?Obviously not. "No, I do, but i don't necessarily have to agree with that definition."This is another instance of you making rash and sweeping judgements based on very little information,"All I need is the information that the US military has pre-emptively invaded four countries (occupied two) in the last ten years with little or no justifcation resulting in hundreds of thousands of innocents dead."which seems to be a pattern with your arguments."You don't see thing the way I do, I don't expect you to, in fact I don't many people on this site to agree with me.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

So if you say pissing on corpses is institutionalized within the army and then I say the Institution of the Army or of the Military in General has policies and regulations in place that punish and try to prevent things like.... oh say, pissing on corpses, and you agreed with me that it does, then you are in effect refuting your own argument.Either you can concede that perhaps you came to a hasty conclusion, or you can try to deny it further entrench yourself in an untenable position that undermines any credibility that you may have.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

"So if you say pissing on corpses is institutionalized within the army and then I say the Institution of the Army or of the Military in General has policies and regulations in place that punish and try to prevent things like.... oh say, pissing on corpses, and you agreed with me that it does, then you are in effect refuting your own argument."I'm sorry I don't remember saying that pissing on corpses is institutionalized within the army."Either you can concede that perhaps you came to a hasty conclusion, or you can try to deny it further entrench yourself in an untenable position that undermines any credibility that you may have."Hmmm???? Those don't sound like very enticing options, I think I'll go for option C: "none of the above"No matter how I explain my position to you you are never going to agree, all I really have to do to know what I'm saying is true is simply look the documentary record i.e. two illegal invasions in 10 yrs, hundreds of thousands of innocent impoverished civilians dead, two countries lying in ruins, torture chambers all over the world, suspect terrorist grabbed and taken to be tortured or assassinated without due process of law (even US citizens), leaked cables from the Iraq war documenting institutionalised war crimes.Need I say any more?Please don't try to pawn me off with your "oh, we have to abide by the Geneva convention" bullshit, one person here has no credibility, and isn't me, I don't support the greatest terrorist war machine in existence, and I'm glad I don't because then I'd end up an apologist for war crimes, just like you.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

I'm sorry I don't remember saying that pissing on corpses is institutionalized within the army.Sigh.....of course you don't.GARY: "This kind of behaviour is institutional in the US army, of that I have very little doubt." posted 19 days agoThe 'behaviour' you were referring to was pissing on corpses in a response to David. Does this refresh your memory?No matter how I explain my position to you you are never going to agreeWell certainly if you have an incorrect position, regardless of how you explain it you still have the same position.what I'm saying is true is simply look the documentary record i.e. two illegal invasions in 10 yrs, hundreds of thousands of innocent impoverished civilians dead, two countries lying in ruins, torture chambers all over the world, suspect terrorist grabbed and taken to be tortured or assassinated without due process of law (even US citizens), leaked cables from the Iraq war documenting institutionalised war crimes....So are we talking about something else now, because we were talking about an incident of a couple of jarhead marines pissing on dead bodies and how you thought it was standard procedure. You are aware that you have made a red herring, right?http://www.answers.com/topic/red-herring Let's assume everything you said above was true, let's assume the US military is the biggest terrorist group in the world ... are we any closer to proving that pissing on corpses is institutionalized behavior? No. You actually need to put forth some evidence that supports your claim.Stay.On.Topic.If I were to make an analogy your argument is sort of like trying to prove that my dog crapped on your lawn by making a list of all the things you don't like about my dog. You still haven't proven that my dog crapped on my lawn in the first place, everything you said was a non-sequitar. You cannot prove an accusation by making yet more accusations. It's just one big series of red herrings.Please present a reasoned logical argument and we can continue, otherwise your initial claim is still unproven and unsubstantiated.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

Oh C'mon Gary don't bullshit me. Hiding behind ambiguous statements won't help you. KIND OF is just an escape clause to avoid committing to a particular claim. I'm not new to debating, Gary. You don't have any evidence that pissing on dead bodies is institutionalized behavior just as you don't have any evidence that behavior Kind of like pissing on dead bodies is institutionalized behavior. You never did. Admit it. I called you on your presumption, but you are too prideful to admit that you made a mistake. Pride cometh before the fall.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

"Oh C'mon Gary don't bullshit me. Hiding behind ambiguous statements won't help you."I don't see what is so ambiguous about using the phrase "kind of behaviour" in reference to marines pissing on dead Afghans. The only thing up for debate here is what other forms of behaviour deserve to be placed in the same league as the aforementioned."You don't have any evidence that pissing on dead bodies is institutionalized behavior "Of course I don't, but the evidence that this kind of behaviour is quite institutionalized is quite compelling (i.e. Iraq war logs), that was point from the beginning."You never did. Admit it."I don't recall ever claiming I did."I called you on your presumption, but you are too prideful to admit that you made a mistake."There's nothing presumptuous about the catalogued history of US war crimes in Iraq, i should think pissing on already dead soldiers would rank fairly low relativel to most other US war crimes. Now, I honestly don't know how you can think that I thought pissing on dead bodies is institutionalized behavior, I have no doubt if a someone wants to do it, they can do it, but theres no logical reason why it would be institutionalized, there's simply nothing to be gained from it.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

I don't see what is so ambiguous about using the phrase "kind of behaviour"And you don't find this ambiguous at all? Not even a little bit? Do you want to know why I know you're trying to bullshit me? Read the part in bold above ^. You still have presented zero evidence and the very fact that you haven't even attempted, not even attempt to qualify exactly what behavior you are talking about shows your commitment to making broad sweeping generalizations.The only thing up for debate here is what other forms of behaviour deserve to be placed in the same league as the aforementioned.Except you've already made up your mind, no debate needed. Any behavior that is KIND OF like pissing corpses is institutionalized....except for the actual act of pissing on corpses, which of course isn't institutionalized. What a joke.No need to understand how the military operates, no need to understand what is or is not policy. You watch the news...enough said. Am I right?What the hell do I know about whats institutionalized in the military, I only work in the Headquarters Company of my National Guard Unit in the S4 section. You obviously have a better grasp of the subject matter than I.You made a baseless generalization, I called you on it, you were wrong. Admit it. The more you deny this the more you entrench yourself in a losing argument.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

Firstly I get a lot news from principled intellectually honest people whose opinions I trustYet you ignore those intellectuals who present an alternate opinion?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUfbGm5j2s&feature=related If you can read between the linesThis is the same sort of argument I have received from any number of conspiracy theorists. Reading between the lines is a particularly useful way for finding what one is looking for even if it isn't there. It's simply a long-winded way of saying: Conjecture.but in I think many of those particular instances warrant the use of such words. I do not, thus this debate.but I openly admit that a significant percentage may be too strongly worded, this is partly due to my own passion for the subjectOkay now we are getting somewhere.You have criticised them as failed policiesI have criticized them as being unwarranted and as being ethically objectionable.I know it is impliedThen why are you arguing?I beleive the US military to be a corrupt forceThere is corruption in the Military as there would be in any large institution, but I don't view it as being principled corrupt.when you engage in imperialistic policiesIt has nothing to do with Imperialism. Americans are not interested in conquering other nations and we definitely aren't interested in Governing them. If it was imperialism then we would have occupied Iraq indefinitely, which is not consonant with reality. Imperialism is a cute word, and it's even fun to say, but it doesn't apply in this situation.I don't think it's disingenuous at all actuallyYou don't see how conflating "disrespectful behavior" with torture is disingenuous?I have openly admitted that official policy contradicts my stance on this issue, but I don't beleive it has to be imbued in the official policy to be an institutionalised mode of behaviour in the military.Then in what manner can it be considered Institutional?You are fighting a fictitious war against an enemy that represents no real threat to youWhich war is that again? Iraq or Afghanistan? I can assure you there is nothing fictitious about either. Was the threat exaggerated? Sure. That's almost always the case. That's the nature of politics.I think the deaths of hundreds of thousand can be considered genocideC'mon Gary, even you can't be that desperate to insist that unintended civilian casualties constitutes genocide, and I'd wager that The UN would agree with me, as well as nearly every International humanitarian organization.you didn't supported him when he illegal invaded KuwaitThat's an understatement. We led the coalition forces against him. Watch the video link I posted above.so why did you support your own country when they illegal invaded Iraq?I didn't as I have already said numerous time, but even so they are two different wars with different motives against different opponents. Why should one imply the other?I beg to differ, when a multicoloured coalition intervenes, innocent deaths are lowerWhat do you think ISAF was?
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Funny.

I can maintain a consistent argument, but usually when there is this much back and forth the topic broadens significantly into different areasWell, the Problem is that you disagree with the politics behind the wars, not that I blame you, however the US military has nothing to do with the politics. The Military doesn't decide when to go to war or who to go to war with, everything is handed down from the Department of Defense and from the Commander-in-Chief (The President), including a number of the policies on torture and so forth.I didn't agree with the Iraq war, a war started because of misinformation. Had then President Bush said something along the lines of "Saddam is a dictator that commits genocide against his own people, we're going to take him out" I think the American People and the International Community wouldn't have had a problem with that. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the War was mishandled. That being said, I can disagree with the war without trying to drag all of the U.S. through the mud and trying to paint it as a war crime.Yes, they most certainly do, the logs show clearly that instances of beating's, torture, killings, and subsequent cover-ups.Where? Show me.15,000 unreported deaths is not just a list of incident reports. The military denied they were even recording deathsThis is a half-truth.News media like to put a slant on things. The US military has always recorded deaths, especially it's own, but it isn't a statistics gathering organization, that's not it's job. Civilian deaths are recorded when we come across them, but it has to be reported by the boots on the ground, and as expected a significant number is going to go unreported.have been caught out in literally hundreds of individual instances were senior commanders were actively trying to cover up the truth about the death of an Iraqi civilianCitation?I don't need to be in the US military to interpret information that is freely availableEspecially when it's already interpreted for you. Especially with such objective and unbiased sources like Alex Jones' "InfoWars" and the World Socialist Website. The evidence is quite clear, look thorugh the links, tell me why they are wrong and you are right.And I did go ahead and read through your pdf about war crimes in Iraq, but most of the examples were of things that were in a legal gray area at best, but were neither explicitly illegal and certainly didn't constitute war crimes. For example, one of the supposed "War Crimes" was the tendency of US forces to fire back when attacked from inside houses. This is hardly a war crime and most of the other examples weren't any better. I think you are grossly overstating your case.Yes, raids that resutl in civilians being killed, and then the incident is covered up, or maybe just a beating or a little torture, and they didn't just happen they happened a lot i.e. daily basisCitation?What, you want to talk specifics, I can talk specifics.By all means, I doubt you will find anything substantial because if you had anything, you would have presented it by now.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

I'd hesitate before calling any politically recognised organisation insane. It sounds more like you're thinking of Al-Qaeda, there's a big difference.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Stupid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalibanI mean...While in power, the Taliban enforced one of the strictest interpretations of Sharia law ever seen in the Muslim world,[7] and leading Muslims have been highly critical of the Taliban interpretations of Islamic law.[8] The Taliban were condemned internationally for their brutal repression of women. Most Taliban leaders were influenced by Deobandi fundamentalism,[9] and many also strictly follow the social and cultural norm called Pashtunwali.[10] The Taliban movement is primarily made up of members belonging to Pashtun tribes, the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan.[11]Nah, not insane at all. Women are cattle and all that.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

The modern leaders of the Taliban movement have progressed from their roots, just as the modern day Pope accepts evolution and other 'Anti Christian sciences'. The simplest example would be the opening of the office in Qatar, something that has been a major objective over the last ten years.It's also worth noting that despite their actual interpretations of the law, often their implementation was much less extreme.I agree, their ideas have many faults, but to casually certify that it's insane is not correct. Every side of the argument has its own perspective.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Stupid

Fair enough. I stand by the underlying premises behind my comment though:A. We're there, and how we treat the people there is more important than how many Al Quada we kill.B. At the same time--while certainly pissing on a dead person seems unthinkable to me, sitting comfortably at a computer. For 20-somethings who've been in a war situation, full of dumb youth and testosterone, I'm not willing to judge their individual state of mind during the act too harshly. I doubt they are pscychos, just kids who got carried away and haven't thought things through. But I actually am not for regime change on the grounds it can't be done. I do think other routes are perfectly acceptable to try to improve how other countries treat their people though, as colonial as that may sound.
Debate: Marines Urinating on Taliban
Side: Horrible.

As do I, I was simply pointing it out for clarification. I have no major problem with the original thought process, I just think the negatives massively offset the gains, in a political sense much more than a moral sense.