azza1625/createdebate-arguments huggingface dataset:
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

it seems easy to retire richHello again, the:Nahh.. It's NOT easy.. The MATH is easy.. The discipline to DO it is NOT. And, it doesn't matter that you have children.. It matters that you have or don't have the inclination or the discipline to do it. Look.. It's even worse for me.. I KNEW the rules, and still didn't do it..excon
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

It's NOT easy.. The MATH is easy.. The discipline to DO it is NOT. And, it doesn't matter that you have children.. It matters that you have or don't have the inclination or the discipline to do it.We can agree to disagree on if having children matters because I believe it varies among households. Also, I realize it's not easy. I meant the math is easy, and obviously the discipline to do so is not easily acquired.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

If you are saying that poor people cannot save due to their financial situation, then it is as I said. If you are saying they do not save, even if when they can, then you are in agreement with the OP.I'm saying neither of those.Not if you specifically use definitions that make them differentObviously, but you seem to use poverty and poor as if they are the same word, but they aren't. Yes, there are levels to being in poverty, but being poor is above being in poverty.First, an appeal to ones own authority based on anecdote is fallacious.Okay, let me use a non-anecdotal example: 97.3 million Americans are classified as low-income citizens. 45 million Americans live below the poverty line. Not to say that low-income is the same thing as poor, but below $25,000 annually is generally considered poor.Second, poverty is a state of being poor according to the Webster’s dictionary. Your experience did not give you insight into this commonly excepted use of the word “poverty”.First, yes. Like I said, poverty is a state of being poor. But, saying they're synonymous is like saying since California is a state in the U.S., it's basically the U.S. Second, we can agree to disagree here.Since the error is yours, I suggest you consider your recommendations before presenting them.Again, poverty and poor are not the same. I'm not sure what else I can say about it.The lack of having long term prospects does not transform short term prospects into long term onesPeople who are poor normally can't see past the short term, yes. But, I would argue that a short term prospect like having food, clothing, heat, etc. can become a long term prospect if you know you'll only have it for a limited time.When money isn’t saved due to a lack of long term thinking, then it is their fault insofar as it is the result of their own personal perception.Here, I agree with you. I just needed you to clarify.Keep in mind that we are talking in terms of rates and averages. No individual need be offended by stats or averagesOkay, sure.See above. Or see Webster’s.See above. Or see statistics.A few things- Sure- That's fair- That's also fair, thanks for the insight.To get back on point, my stance on this issue: true
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

but you seem to use poverty and poor as if they are the same word, but they aren't. Yes, there are levels to being in poverty, but being poor is above being in poverty.To be poor is to be in a state of poverty. To be in a state of poverty is to be poor. Poverty refers to extreme poverty, as your google definition states, when context suggest as much. This was not suggested in my post. Which means that in the context of my post, by definition, being in poverty is synonymous with being poor. To be poor is not, by definition, a condition of less crisis than poverty.To reiterate, poverty is defined by Webster’s dictionary as “the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions”. Poor is defined by Webster’s dictionary as “lacking material possessions” and “of, relating to, or characterized by poverty”. If you want to agree to disagree, disagree with Webster.Okay, let me use a non-anecdotal example: 97.3 million Americans are classified as low-income citizens. 45 million Americans live below the poverty line. Not to say that low-income is the same thing as poor, but below $25,000 annually is generally considered poor.A number of those people are temporarily poor because of their long range goals (ie college student). Another number of those people are poor because they are literally incapable of full functionality (typically a psychological disability). But then there is the group that this debate is about; people who are poor and capable. Do they fail to take actions that would lift them out of poverty? Or are they blocked from taking actions that would lift them out of poverty? Are you really saying it’s neither?People who are poor normally can't see past the short term, yes. But, I would argue that a short term prospect like having food, clothing, heat, etc. can become a long term prospect if you know you'll only have it for a limited time.Getting food for today because you don’t know if you’ll have it tomorrow is still a short term prospect.To get back on point, my stance on this issue: trueAt the risk of being sidetracked by a philosophical tangent, why do you think it is the case that poor people don’t save money even when they can?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

To be poor is to be in a state of poverty.No, not necessarily. Students do not live in poverty, but they are nevertheless generally poor. Of course, this example is particularly pertinent given that you have used your fallacy that poor and poverty are the same thing precisely to LIE that students are included in national poverty statistics. For your information, they aren't. Please see:-All individuals living in group quarters (whether college students living in dorms, prisoners, people living in residential treatment centers, etc.) are excluded from the Census “poverty universe” and thus are not included in poverty statisticshttps://www.policymap.com/2015/05/are-students-included-in-census-poverty- rates/  But then there is the group that this debate is about; people who are poor and capable. Do they fail to take actions that would lift them out of poverty? Or are they blocked from taking actions that would lift them out of poverty? Are you really saying it’s neither?Your theory that poverty is the fault of the individual is not just false and stupid, but nothing short of offensive.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

No, not necessarilyIt is not necessarily the case that to be poor is to be in a state of poverty, but it happens to be the case in the context of this discussion. you have used your fallacy that poor and poverty are the same thingIn this context, and according to Webster’s dictionary, they are.precisely to LIE that students are included in national poverty statisticsThere are a whole host of students, both traditional and non-traditional, who are not living in dorms. When I say that there are a number of people who are temporarily poor because of their long range goals, such as college students, it is not inaccurate, regardless of other students who are not counted as poor.but nothing short of offensive.Despite this increasingly popular belief, your offence is not a valid argument. Nor is it my problem. By the way, there is a question that you avoided answering (for apparent reasons): What do you suppose would happen if everyone decided to not have an economic system?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

Well yes necessarily unless you want to do that “ dance “ where terms and meanings are re-interpreted to suit your narrative poorpɔː,pʊə/Submitadjective1.lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society."they were too poor to afford a telephone"synonyms: poverty-stricken, impoverished, necessitous, beggarly, in penury, penurious, impecunious, indigent, needy, needful, in need/want, badly off, low-paid, in reduced circumstances, in straitened circumstances, destitute, hard up, short of money, on one's beam-ends, unable to make ends meet, underprivileged, deprived, penniless, without a sou, as poor as a church mouse, moneyless; More2.of a low or inferior standard or quality."many people are eating a very poor diet"synonyms: substandard, below standard, below par, bad, deficient, defective, faulty, imperfect, inferior, mediocre; MoreTip your theory that poverty is the fault of the individual is not just false and stupid , but nothing short of insensitive It’s remarkable what you find “ offensive “ giving the amount of rabid attacks you make daily on individuals on C D for merely disagreeing with you .Your theory that poverty is the fault of someone other than the individual is not just false and stupid , but nothing short of offensive
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

Your theory that poverty is the fault of the individual is not just false and stupid, but nothing short of offensiveTranslation: People who go spend their paycheck on meth are not at fault. It's the cops' fault. It's the government's fault. It's God's fault even though I don't believe in him. But who's fault is it not? The person who spent their paycheck on drugs... There are no exceptions. None. No one is in poverty by their own doing. No one makes unwise financial decisions. No one is their own crown of thorns All people everywhere, who are in poverty, were placed their by an invisible lib fairy that no one can see... it has wings. It has a magic wand. It is clothed in rainbows, smokes imaginary cigars, and has an imaginary invisible, naked body. Why? Because Quantum says so. That's why. And this just in. Parents are authoritarians for making toddlers mind, proof is needed for God but not for any lib talking point, and Farrakhan is dandy despite claiming to love Hitler. Why? He's black. Support for the Fuhrer is fine if you're black.....
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

@QuantumFirst, Amarel is right about the College situation; or, more broadly, people who are poor in the short-term in order to advance long-term goals--which requires investment.Your theory that poverty is the fault of the individual is not just false and stupid, but nothing short of offensive.If an abled body & mind individual is in poverty for say, 10 years (or a quite extended period of time, without any long-term investment occurring), how is that not their fault given the resources available to them in the USA (and, presumably, in the UK, ect.)? In your worldview, whos fault is it?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

First, Amarel is right about the College situationI am sorry that you think ignoring insurmountable evidence to the contrary is the way to show people that you are not ignorant and stupid. It really isn't. I have no interest in debating a topic with you after I have already proven you to be wrong. That's silly.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

@QuantumYou think it is not reasonably possible for people in the US to be able to rise out of poverty, provided a decade or more?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

You think it is not reasonably possible for people in the US to be able to rise out of poverty, provide a decade or more?@MathFan.Do you not think it reasonable that you should acquire a basic education before you attempt to debate topics on the internet?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

@QuantumWhat qualifies as 'basic education' ?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

@QuantumKragenYou claim that parents are authoritarians for stopping toddlers from running out in the street because obviously the toddler has the right to do what it wants...
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

@brontobuttfaceThey are authoritarians. You can not objectively describe when a child needs no guidance. They might need no parental guidance at age 2 depending on the child.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

LMAO. Is that right? Okay, let your little liberal gremlins run out in the street. It's on your conscience, not mine.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

To be poor is to be in a state of poverty. To be in a state of poverty is to be poor.The way you put it here, I can kind of agree.A number of those people are temporarily poor because of their long range goalsYes, this is true. A certain percentage of those 97 million Americans definitely made a couple of bad decisions.people who are poor and capable. Do they fail to take actions that would lift them out of poverty? Or are they blocked from taking actions that would lift them out of poverty? Are you really saying it’s neither?Yes, I believe people who are poor and capable do not take action to lift them out of their position. So, I assume I agree with the OP.why do you think it is the case that poor people don’t save money even when they can?Poor people don't save money even when they're able because of their position financially. Not because they're barred from any opportunities, but because they turn to alcohol and drug abuse, like you said, which is why the drug and alcohol abuse rate is much higher in poverty-stricken communities.Why do you believe poor people don't save money even when they can?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Poor people don't save money even when they're able because of their position financiallyOk , I get that .Not because they're barred from any opportunities, but because they turn to alcohol and drug abuse, But you just said they cannot save as they have no money ?How do they pay for their addictions then ?Why do you believe poor people don't save money even when they can?That’s simply not true , some poor people don’t save money , some do , you are lumping them all into one box
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

But you just said they cannot save as they have no money ?No, that's not what I said. I said because they are poor, instead of saving for something in the future, they look for instant gratification in the form of drugs/alcohol.That’s simply not true , some poor people don’t save money , some do , you are lumping them all into one boxYes, but a majority do not save money. And, you're still lumping them all into two groups when there are many different circumstances.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

I said because they are poor, instead of saving for something in the future, they look for instant gratification in the form of drugs/alcohol.Again I don’t buy this , yes there are poor people who look for solace through drugs /alcohol but the majority of poor people worldwide do not I haven’t attempted to lump the poor into boxes I’m countering your opinion as in you neatly putting the “ majority “ into one box
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

yes there are poor people who look for solace through drugs /alcohol but the majority of poor people worldwide do notYou seem to believe it isn't a problem at all. I assure you, it is. Over 35 percent of the United States' poor population are alcoholics, and 26 percent are drug abusers.I haven’t attempted to lump the poor into boxes I’m countering your opinion as in you neatly putting the “ majority “ into one boxOne, yes you were, smaller categorizations are still categorizations. Two, aren't the majority and minority two "boxes"?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Where did I say it’s not a problem ?Oh right , this pedantic game where if I have a different case for every poor person I’m still categorizing them , I’m not interested in these semantic games I only wanted clarity on your posting
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

Where did I say it's not a problem?I never said you said it's not a problem. What I said was you seemed to believe it was a problem. Since you said "yes there are, but", I saw it as you not believing it to be a problem.if I have a different case for every poor person I’m still categorizing themI was just stating that the minority and majority are still categorizations, plus the fact that you were the one that brought up categorization in the first place.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Ok , I’m not interested anymore this has gotten ridiculous and not worth pursuing
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

Would you like for me to strip for you? Do you want to play with my nipples silly boy?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Well that would once again assist you in what you cannot do as in actually debate
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

I can play with your asshole and lick your nutsack. Would you like for me to do that? Do you want me to pull out the fruits & the vegetables?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

So why did your wife and family disown you again ? .........
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

You are a neo Nazi half witted wanker spanker hot dog gobbling right wing troll gremlin.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

I wants to suckle your cock & I don't mean your farm's rooster.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

So why did your wife and family disown you again ? .........
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

To be with the neighbor clown & get neighbor clown wank...............
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Oh , so she went from one clown to another ...........................
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

Why do you believe poor people don't save money even when they can?Let’s be clear about what poor people we are referring to. There are a large number of people who are temporarily poor. I mentioned students, but there are also all kinds of ways people end up poor for the short run but stabilize in the long run. We aren’t talking about them.There is a large number of homeless people who suffer from mental health issues. We aren’t talking about them either.We are talking about the capable poor who do not rise above it. To say they have a short range mindset is often true, but it’s pretty broad and perhaps vague. A person could have long term hopes and dreams, but lack the discipline or know-how to achieve them. I still call that a short range mindset. The point is that poverty isn’t simply a money problem, it’s a mindset problem. Consider what happens to poor people who win the lottery. It’s often a catastrophe for them. On the other hand, people who do not have a poverty mindset will often act in ways which reduce or illuminate the money issue associated with poverty. They will do things like save money.There is debate over whether poverty causes a poor mindset or a poor mindset causes poverty. Those who have been, but are no longer poor, are likely to believe the mindset is the cause.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

The point is that poverty isn’t simply a money problem, it’s a mindset problem. Yes , I agree
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: true

I should note that there are examples of actual barriers which should be addressed when identified. For example, welfare programs have been known to provide perverse incentives, such as breaking up otherwise healthy family structures. Welfare also has the problem of creating a "cliff effect" wherein getting a job and a paycheck actually means a significant decrease in ones financial status due to the loss of benefits. A small family takes a significant risk in that initial employment period where government benefits halt but private benefits have not yet begun.These barriers are real. Acknowledging that poverty is primarily a mindset problem does not eliminate the necessity to manage or alter our welfare systems.
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

Over here sometimes one is better off on welfare in certain cases because of the extra perks one gets through welfare , someone getting the minimum wage is actually worse off than those on welfare which is pretty unfair and no valid solution has been put forward to address this I see from what you’re saying the same applies in the U S where a loss of benefits is possible when one takes on a job , what if any solutions do you see to solve this problem ?
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

@DermotNote: I'm jumping in on this conversation a bit, sorry for intruding--just have something to add quicklyOver here sometimes one is better off on welfare in certain cases because of the extra perks one gets through welfare...I see from what you’re saying the same applies in the U S where a loss of benefits is possible when one takes on a job , The way Welfare works here is, in outline:(A) one has to work at least 30 hours, which is considered full-time(B) there is an 'income cap', over which, one no longer qualifies for welfareThen, people become incentivized to work close to the minimum hours for 1 job, rather than work overtime or get multiple jobs--as that would push them over the 'income cap' limit.From personal experience, when I went to Community College, I worked 2 jobs; 1 full time (40 hrs), the other part-time (10-20 hrs). Now, the 40 hr job was minimum wage, which is certainly not a living wage in the US. I was young, and wondered to myself how many of the adult employees were managing to pay for their bills when they worked 30-40hrs at the store with no 2nd job; the math didn't add up, at all. Often, I would have to stay extra time when the store needed, while these people tended to cut hours off short. Then, I found out, they were on Welfare, and were in total making quite a bit more than me (with the 2 jobs, double the hours). From talking to them, the ones I knew, had no plan or desire to get out of their current situation (such as, take classes at the local community college, learn a trade, ect.). Now, I definitely do not want to imply this is all people on Welfare, just stating what the system allows and seems to incentivize. Also, there are no requirements to demonstrate progress toward a better financial situation (such as previously discussed).
Debate: Most poor people dont even try to save money even when they are able
Side: no

You’re more than welcome to jump in X .That very intersting indeed as the perception over here is mainly that in the U S one gets food stamps and little else as no real welfare system exists in the U S , how long can one claim welfare in the U S ?Over here there are families that have never worked and claim welfare and all it’s benifits for life , indeed this is generational in some cases with their children following the self same path Tell me X are all citizens of the U S also entitled to an old age pension paid by the government ?