Debate: Dreamers were brought here as children. Should they be deported to - who knows where?
Side: Git 'em OUTTA here

"Your views are predicated upon the notion that a certain paradigmatically normative mode of economy is universally normative: in otherwords, you seem to think that because the interpretation of value is a certain way in a neocapitalist society, that it must or has to be that way."It's simple economics; supply and demand. I'm not saying anything has to be any way at all, I simply stated the consequences of uncontrolled population growth."This is what irks me about the armchair capitalist economist. You have a complete inability to think outside the box."Come now, you know nothing of me and are making assumptions. I made a point about the need for some controls on immigration and it still stands."Yes, wages increased after the black death, labour was scarcer. But the society in which the black death took place was a feudalist shithole not unlike the quasi-fuedalism we "normal" citizens endure today under the oligarchy we are born into. The only real difference between then and now is that where hereditary title was the currency of power, now it is hereditary wealth, which coincidentally is where the vast majority of wealth is hoarded."This doesn't serve as a rebut to my point about labor supply and demand. I think there is a problem with rising inequality, among other things. One solution I would propose to this is removing money from the political process and thereby stopping one of the ways in which the game is rigged."It takes a very dull mind and an even duller heart for a man to want to justify the deliberate starvation of the democratically driven economy -- what's meant to be for the benefit of the people and is usurped by the wealthy few -- by citing references to show that death by plague is great for increasing worker's wages."You realize that what you're saying has nothing to do with immigration right? If anything, mass immigration helps these "wealthy few" by driving down wages and lower wages means more profit. Obviously I'm not arguing for "death by plague" I'm simply demonstrating the effect of market forces on wages."What a moron."I've been nothing but polite with you good sir, despite the fact that you seem to be debating a completely different subject to the debate topic."There are a plethora of far superior circumstances that would allow for massive increase in living standards for the vast majority of people. The central hurdle to this is rather simple: we, citizens of "democratic" nations, who have been able to sieze the power of the vote, of rights, of democracy and parliament and who have bit by bit stripped the feudal lords of their superiority, have yet to extend our mass confiscation of powers as far as determining by democratic process where wealth is distributed and how economy functions."I don't agree with this, communism and socialism have both been tried and they always result in millions dead (hundreds of millions with communism). I personally think the path to progress that we have staked out is one of greater individual rights and self determination. This is shown in your examples of progress, it's always about empowering the individual insofar as is possible, not imposing collectivism. The right to private property is one of the rights that we the citizenry had to fight for against our rulers. Under the centralized control of communism and socialism the people aren't even free to dissent, let alone own private property. For someone so skeptical of the powerful, I find it interesting that you would want a group to have control over the entire economy and the distribution of wealth."Given the vote to decide, I would wager everything I own that tomorrow, by the hands of the voters: education would be fed by taxes, not profits; healthcare would be universal; medicine would be made by public companies, not private ones; wars would necessitate a vote of every man and woman, not simply the whim of a single individual; wages would not be the pittance that wealthy companymen can get away with, they would be fair proportions of the profits each worker toils to create."Education is mostly taxpayer funded and in western democracies you will always have access to free education. Healthcare is universal in most liberal democracies (and the U.S. isn't even that far behind). Some medicines are made by public companies. As for wars, I don't agree with wars of aggression. Wages could be higher, sure, and we were discussing one of the factors in rates of pay before we took this diversion.