Debate: Does God exist?
Side: Theism

I am not talking about God. I am talking about an intelligent designer. Not God. So I cant really answer your first paragraph because I am not talking about God. This debate is titled "Does God exist" so I assumed that is who we were talking about. It really doesn't matter what we call the intelligent designer, I just used God because that's what most people call it. ------------------------------------------- Also if the big bang is not the beginning what is?There may not be a beginning. That's the point I've been trying to make. I think maybe all of the matter that our universe is made of has always existed in some form. We have no way of knowing for sure, but I find it more believable that basic matter can always exist verses an incredibly intelligent and powerful being always existing.------------------------------------------- Also you say nothing can happen without time but if you are eternal time is nothing. Time isn't affecting you. If time isn't affecting you, then you are frozen. Without time there can be no sequence of events, nothing can change. Without time I can't type this message because pressing each key on my keyboard is a sequence of events. An intelligent designer that is not in time wouldn't be able to design anything because the act of designing and creating is a sequence of events, and therefore dependent on time.------------------------------------------- I am aware that the frequency of events doesn't mean it isn't chaotic but this isn't chaos. These things are just deadly and catastrophic to us. Black holes are catastrophic to anything that crosses their path. Supernovas are catastrophic for all nearby planets. Galaxies colliding are catastrophic for everything in them. The universe is filled with destruction. Our sun will eventually go supernova and kill every living thing on the planet, but before that happens a rogue asteroid will most likely kill us.------------------------------------------- Order in the universe? How is it not ordered? What is order in the universe?Things not colliding with each other and being smashed into a million piece or being sucked into black holes would be a start. ------------------------------------------- Our planet got lucky and had the perfect distance from a star and the perfect elements to support life which happened from these "chaotic" events. Chaos is only in the human mind.There are approximately 7 sextillion stars in the observable universe, that's 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Scientists estimate that there are around 100 billion galaxies in the universe with 100 billion planets in each one. So that's 100 billion times 100 billion, 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. The chances of some of those planets having the right conditions to support some form of life are not nearly as improbable as they may seem. Scientists have already discovered many planets in our galaxy that are the right distance from a sun, and they think those planets may be able to support life. ------------------------------------------- Tell me with earth and its ability to support life is that not fine tuned?That's not fine tuning, that just what happens when you have such a massive number of planets. The chances of some of them being able to support life are not that unlikely, especially when you consider that the first form of life was most likely a microscopic single-celled organism. Think of how much microscopic surface area there is on 100 billion billion planets and just how many different conditions exist on all those planets. ------------------------------------------- Are stars not fine tuned? Are planets not fine tuned? Are black holes not fine tuned? I don't see how any of those things are fine-tuned. All of those things are just hunks of various matter that have coalesced due to gravity. If they were all the same then it would appear that they were fined-tuned, but all of those things vary greatly, just as you would expect if they were created from a random event. There are lots of different types of stars with different chemical compositions. The makeup of planets varies greatly. Just think about all the different types of planets just in our solar system. This multitude of variations points to randomness, not fine-tuning.------------------------------------------- Simply because you cannot find a reason for its existence or cant find anything to support it doesn't mean that people cant still believe in it. I never said they can't. I'm just saying that I personally see no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence. If other people want to do so, that it their choice. Fine tuning doesn't imply what you are stating. It doesn't have to have a goal. It is simply fine tuned. Fine-tune1. "To adjust precisely so as to bring to the highest level of performance or effectiveness."2. "To improve through minor alteration or revision." In definition 1 the goal is to bring something "to the highest level of performance or effectiveness." In order to gauge whether it is performing correctly or effectively you need to know it's purpose.In definition 2 the act of improving something means you have a goal of making it better than it currently is because it is not serving its purpose as effectively as it should.