azza1625/createdebate-arguments huggingface dataset:
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

It is rational to be afraid of death, as it is in our natural programming to want to live. It is also rational to seek the truth. What is irrational, is accepting something lamentably not true, because you cannot think of a suitable answer for the question. What is life, what happens after death, why are we alive?It is rational to disagree with others. It is not rational to fight to the death for your beliefs, and encourage others to do the same. It is not rational either, to accept one ridiculous answer and lead your life by it, and yet turn your back to a similar answer, profetised by a secondary religion.What's more, it is irrational to ignore the facts that are staring you in the face which are disproving your beliefs ( or at least some of them) and to continue fighting for something which has been proven ( or at least in part) not to be true.^ Many aspects of religion are irrational.How would you explain the fine-tuning of the universe.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

Fine tuning? come on now? Heard this one before. How is the universe fine tuned when 90% of it is fatal? Perhaps you choose to view it as fine tuned because you have grown to find certain things about it more convenient than other things about it (which should happen fine tuned or not) and this makes you more secure in your beliefs about god?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

Fine tuning? come on now? Heard this one before. How is the universe fine tuned when 90% of it is fatal? Perhaps you choose to view it as fine tuned because you have grown to find certain things about it more convenient than other things about it (which should happen fine tuned or not) and this makes you more secure in your beliefs about god?There is evidence of fine tuning such as the flatness of the universe this is know as the flatness problem (1.) a suggested solution is cosmic inflation (2.) but that makes the fine-tuning even more worse (3.) by by a factor of (10 to the 10th power ) to the 100th power so instead of solving it it makes it worse and much worse. It is possible that a multi-verse is happening although it has not been observed at all and appears not to exist. I am not trying to do the "god of the gaps" but there should be evidence of multiple universes (4.) by now. The problem with this supposed logic is at best evidence is few and far between with 5. and 6. (5.)(6.) being almost the only evidence of evidence that I could find. So believing in a God or a Creator is not illogical as some atheists claim. Although the hypothesis of the multiuniverse is something to ponder about never the less.1. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatness(underscore)problem) 2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic(underscore)inflation) 3. (http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/0411036.pdf) 4. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) 5. (http://www.messagetoeagle.com/evidencepararelluniverse.php) 6. (http://phys.org/news/2010-12-scientists-evidence-universes.html)
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

There is evidence of fine tuning such as the flatness of the universe this is know as the flatness problem (1.) a suggested solution is cosmic inflation (2.)In the first wikipedia article you showed me, it also brings up the Einstein Caratan Theory as a solution. I also fail to understand how this flatness within the universe we have had to try to make sense of, at all suggests fine tuning?(3.) by by a factor of (10 to the 10th power ) to the 100th power so instead of solving it it makes it worse and much worse. It is possible that a multi-verse is happening although it has not been observed at all and appears not to exist. I am not trying to do the "god of the gaps" but there should be evidence of multiple universes (4.) by now. The problem with this supposed logic is at best evidence is few and far between with 5. and 6. (5.)(6.) being almost the only evidence of evidence that I could find.Yet the evidence for god, assuming the rest of your logic with this is correct and your point is correct, is at least equal to the evidence of a multi-verse if not less.So believing in a God or a Creator is not illogical as some atheists claim. Although the hypothesis of the multiuniverse is something to ponder about never the less.It is still quite illogical in my honest opinion, I don't see how the flatness of the universe makes it all fine tuned or better for the life inside of it. Secondly you still haven't addressed why 98% of our universe will kill us, seems like a lot of wasted space to me for a god to create so superfluously.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

In the first wikipedia article you showed me, it also brings up the Einstein Caratan Theory as a solution. It's possibleI also fail to understand how this flatness within the universe we have had to try to make sense of, at all suggests fine tuning?Life as we know it needs heavy elements to live which is only possible in a flat universe.Also galaxies and planets can form instead of black holes, etc.It is still quite illogical in my honest opinion, I don't see how the flatness of the universe makes it all fine tuned or better for the life inside of it.See aboveSecondly you still haven't addressed why 98% of our universe will kill us, seems like a lot of wasted space to me for a god to create so superfluously.For possibly humans and other sentient creatures to survive. Also if a God or higher being wanted to and only had limited control over it (this is a hypothesis) he didn't want it to be "too" fine-tuned.It is because if the universe was "too" fine-tuned there would be "mass wars" in the galaxy and the primitive humanity would be helpless..... So what seems to be "not fine-tuned" might actually be helpful to primitive civilizations in the galaxy preventing mass invasion and protecting the survival of species throughout the galaxy. Like for instance a conquering empire of aliens (in theory) would be devastating for all sentient life throughout the galaxy if the speed of light was faster or slower. Faster for the speed of life and there might be wars that would devastate full regions of the galaxy. Slower and sentient life is stuck in one spot. There is many other supposed debunking of fine-tuning but they do not point out the problem if it was different.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

It's possibleAs well as more scientifically backed up than a creator.Life as we know it needs heavy elements to live which is only possible in a flat universe.This isn't evidence for fine-tuning if something about our universe is essentially for us to live, otherwise life wouldn't exist at all, and you might as well make the argument that life in and of itself is evidence for god, which I don't mind you going that route if you wish. A big problem I have with fine tuning, is that it assumes that we can distinguish a designed universe over an universe that wasn't, when we've only seen and really can imagine one kind of universe. Also galaxies and planets can form instead of black holes, etc.Why do black holes exist at all if our universe is fine tuned?For possibly humans and other sentient creatures to survive. Also if a God or higher being wanted to and only had limited control over it (this is a hypothesis) he didn't want it to be "too" fine-tuned.It is because if the universe was "too" fine-tuned there would be "mass wars" in the galaxy and the primitive humanity would be helpless..... So what seems to be "not fine-tuned" might actually be helpful to primitive civilizations in the galaxy preventing mass invasion and protecting the survival of species throughout the galaxy. Like for instance a conquering empire of aliens (in theory) would be devastating for all sentient life throughout the galaxy if the speed of light was faster or slower. Faster for the speed of life and there might be wars that would devastate full regions of the galaxy. Slower and sentient life is stuck in one spot. There is many other supposed debunking of fine-tuning but they do not point out the problem if it was different.Why not just create one intelligent species within the universe?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

This isn't evidence for fine-tuning if something about our universe is essentially for us to live, otherwise life wouldn't exist at all, and you might as well make the argument that life in and of itself is evidence for god, which I don't mind you going that route if you wish. A big problem I have with fine tuning, is that it assumes that we can distinguish a designed universe over an universe that wasn't, when we've only seen and really can imagine one kind of universe. We can tell a "fine-tuned" universe is one that sentient life can do the best in.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

We can tell a "fine-tuned" universe is one that sentient life can do the best in.How do you know this universe supports life the best?Have you explored or seen other universes?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

How do you know this universe supports life the best?Have you explored or seen other universes?No but it is pretty clear what ones would benefit us the most. For example in a universe with no matter= no lifeuniverse with too much matter= giant black hole.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

No but it is pretty clear what ones would benefit us the most. For example in a universe with no matter= no lifeuniverse with too much matter= giant black hole.Perhaps if there was a multi-verse (and my point still stands regardless of whether or not there is one) universes with too much matter or not enough wouldn't come into existence often, and most universes would look like ours, but some with more life and some with less. You can't imagine exactly what this would be like, you can't compare this universe to another, you never seen a "fine-tuned" universe that you knew was fine-tuned, so how do you know ours is? How do you know this isn't how a universe that formed at random wouldn't form this way?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

Perhaps if there was a multi-verse (and my point still stands regardless of whether or not there is one) universes with too much matter or not enough wouldn't come into existence often, and most universes would look like ours, but some with more life and some with less. You can't imagine exactly what this would be like, you can't compare this universe to another, you never seen a "fine-tuned" universe that you knew was fine-tuned, so how do you know ours is? How do you know this isn't how a universe that formed at random wouldn't form this way?There is no evidence for a multiverse.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

There is no evidence for a multiverse.Ill say it again for a third time, Im not trying to argue there is a multiverse, I don't necessarily believe in one either, my argument was a hypothetical. It even says in the argument you quoted that my argument still stands regardless of whether or not a multiverse exists. How can you differentiate between a fine tuned universe and one that wasn't, we've only seen one universe. How do you know this isn't how a universe wouldn't form at random?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

. How can you differentiate between a fine tuned universe and one that wasn't, we've only seen one universe.Sentient life can form and live on it. How do you know this isn't how a universe wouldn't form at random?It is so unlikely
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

Sentient life can form and live on itHow do you know this requires a fine tuner?It is so unlikelyHow so? I mean I can see how it can be so unlikely in that it's formation is at random, but that is an inevitable unlikeliness. Just how throwing sand up in the air and it landing in a random formation is an inevitable unlikeliness.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

How do you know this requires a fine tuner?It doesn't but it would be extremely unlikelyHow so? I mean I can see how it can be so unlikely in that it's formation is at random, but that is an inevitable unlikeliness. Just how throwing sand up in the air and it landing in a random formation is an inevitable unlikeliness.I already showed you if dark matter was different life wouldn't form
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

It doesn't but it would be extremely unlikelyHow so?I already showed you if dark matter was different life wouldn't formWhat makes you think that slightly more dark matter is more likely than the amount we have now?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

What makes you think that slightly more dark matter is more likely than the amount we have now?It's not but it's so narrow conditions that something must of created it.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

This isn't evidence for fine-tuning if something about our universe is essentially for us to live, otherwise life wouldn't exist at all, and you might as well make the argument that life in and of itself is evidence for god, which I don't mind you going that route if you wish.OkWhy do black holes exist at all if our universe is fine tuned?They are necessary for life and for galaxy formation. Scientists also agree with the hypothesis. "Take away the black holes and you get a different mix of elements, in different places. You might also get different, more volatile stars, which explode in a destructive supernova, blowing away inchoate complex structures."Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/10-mind-blowing-facts-about-black-holes- 2012-9?op=1#ixzz2iHNF0wTf  -scharfWhy not just create one intelligent species within the universe?You are saying life should be common in the universe if it was fine-tuned.A big problem I have with fine tuning, is that it assumes that we can distinguish a designed universe over an universe that wasn't, when we've only seen and really can imagine one kind of universe. Ok this is how we can distinguish a fine-tuned universe. A fine tuned universe is a universe that allows the formation of sentient lifeforms. A "Extremely" fine-tuned universe is a universe that allows sentient life to exist for over 100,000,000 years. Our universe is fine-tuned as to allow sentient life to exist for eons. (About a billion years will sentient life be able to live on earth in theory assuming no terraforming or space exploration.) That will probably not happen so in theory humanity will never go extinct or will be "upgraded" and be in a way so that "normal" humans would be very rare in the universe. I am moving on because that is another story to talk about. Sentient life is in of itself evidence of a higher intelligence and the problem with the multiverse theory is that there is no evidence of a multiverse. If you want to call this "fine-tuner" God or "aliens" or a "higher being". To make religion a rational belief to have you have to first prove that believing in a higher being or a creator is a rational belief to have as to tie it into the debate title.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

OkMy argument to this would be, why would life require a fine tuner or a creator? You are saying life should be common in the universe if it was fine-tuned.It would make a lot more sense than to have all this extra space lying around. Dead planets and space itself. Ok this is how we can distinguish a fine-tuned universe. A fine tuned universe is a universe that allows the formation of sentient lifeforms. That will probably not happen so in theory humanity will never go extinct or will be "upgraded" and be in a way so that "normal" humans would be very rare in the universe. I am moving on because that is another story to talk about. Sentient life is in of itself evidence of a higher intelligence and the problem with the multiverse theory is that there is no evidence of a multiverse. If you want to call this "fine-tuner" God or "aliens" or a "higher being". To make religion a rational belief to have you have to first prove that believing in a higher being or a creator is a rational belief to have as to tie it into the debate title. What is your logic behind this, what if there was a multiverse and we could observe a quantity of universes and found life wasn't all that special or rare in a universe? The fact that life exists isn't evidence of a fine tuner, it is inevitable that life would exist somewhere.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

What is your logic behind this, what if there was a multiverse and we could observe a quantity of universes and found life wasn't all that special or rare in a universe? The fact that life exists isn't evidence of a fine tuner, it is inevitable that life would exist somewhere.My point is that there is no evidence of multi-verses in the universe(s).
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

My point is that there is no evidence of multi-verses in the universe(s).Which doesn't combat my point, you are missing my point, my point still stands regardless of whether or not there is a multi-verse. In fact if anything your point compliments mine, how do you know that life would be oh so special that it would require a fine tuner. What if life is always guaranteed to exist somewhere if our universe was reset over, and over and over? there would always be life? If the universe started over and over and over and kept creating life somewhere inside itself, it would be creating life at random, disproving your fine tuning argument, and statistically, that is what would happen.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

Which doesn't combat my point, you are missing my point, my point still stands regardless of whether or not there is a multi-verse. In fact if anything your point compliments mine, how do you know that life would be oh so special that it would require a fine tuner. What if life is always guaranteed to exist somewhere if our universe was reset over, and over and over? there would always be life? If the universe started over and over and over and kept creating life somewhere inside itself, it would be creating life at random, disproving your fine tuning argument, and statistically, that is what would happen.The fine-tuning wouldn't of changed the laws would be the same if the universe keeps "resetting".
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

The fine-tuning wouldn't of changed the laws would be the same if the universe keeps "resetting".what? are you trying to say the fine tuning is in the laws of a universe? How do you know that a universe with any other laws is possible? Maybe we have the laws we do, because all universes have to have those same laws? Maybe that is what comes with a space time fabric? I still can't see how you could distinguish a designed universe over one that wasn't when you've only seen one universe.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

what? are you trying to say the fine tuning is in the laws of a universe? How do you know that a universe with any other laws is possible? Maybe we have the laws we do, because all universes have to have those same laws? Maybe that is what comes with a space time fabric? I still can't see how you could distinguish a designed universe over one that wasn't when you've only seen one universe.You are saying it would have a "big crush" then a "big bang" but give no reason for such a thing to happen and even allowing you to allow that to happen what would cause the laws to reset.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

You are saying it would have a "big crush" then a "big bang" but give no reason for such a thing to happen and even allowing you to allow that to happen what would cause the laws to reset.No offense, but could you try taking a little more time to articulate yourself better, I can hardly understand what you are trying to say... I am not saying that this will happen, it is hypothetical... I am not saying our laws will ever reset. You are saying that the laws that we have require fine tuning... why? what is so off about them, what? are the laws we have not supposed to be the laws we have? does it not make sense that these laws exist? maybe if there was multiple universes we could observe, we'd see these same laws would always have to exist for the universes to exist. Maybe these laws come with a space time fabric, just as geometry comes with shapes.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

No offense, but could you try taking a little more time to articulate yourself better, I can hardly understand what you are trying to say...Ok I am saying is there is no evidence of a multiverse so that is out and the universe even if it did reset wouldn't change the laws of physics.... I am not saying that this will happen, it is hypothetical... You are giving no evidence why that would occurYou are saying that the laws that we have require fine tuning... why? what is so off about them, what? are the laws we have not supposed to be the laws we have? does it not make sense that these laws exist? Dark energy for example if it was even slightly larger galaxies wouldn't form. I could give you more examples.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

Ok I am saying is there is no evidence of a multiverse so that is out and the universe even if it did reset wouldn't change the laws of physics. You are giving no evidence why that would occurThe point I am trying to make is you have no evidence or reason to think our universe is special by any means that would require a fine tuner, we only know of one universe (regardless of whether or not there is only one universe). We don't know if our laws of physics would be any less unlikely with or without a fine tuner because we don't know how other universes are supposed to look like. Dark energy for example if it was even slightly larger galaxies wouldn't form. I could give you more examples.How do you know without a fine tuner that dark energy would be slightly larger? It seems like you are just trying to find what could be different about our universe to make it less ideal for us. I could go "well if the ocean was lava instead of water, fish couldn't possibly live in it, ergo humans are responsible for the ocean being made of water" it doesn't work like that. How do you know a universe is supposed to have more dark energy? How do you know that the amount of dark energy we have wasn't inevitable anyway?
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

Maybe these laws come with a space time fabric, just as geometry comes with shapes.There is no evidence for that.
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: No Religion is Not

There is no evidence for that.No, but you don't have evidence that a fine tuner is required for our laws of physics yourself. That is really an argument from ignorance "I don't know how we got our laws of physics, so god must have done it".
Debate: Is Religion a Rational Belief to Have?
Side: Yes Religion is/Mixed/Other

It would make a lot more sense than to have all this extra space lying around. Dead planets and space itself.You just said Why not just create one intelligent species within the universe?what side are you on?