Debate: Modern music is contributing to the downfall of society.
Side: No

I thought it was quite a novel way to argue.Argue? There was no argument, you just admitted to being a stubborn nutjob who believes in government conspiracies and refuses to listen to science. I can understand though if you're frustrated on being called out about your lack of knowledge on a subject. I would be too if I regarded my own intelligence as highly as you do yours. Must be a great shock when you go into reality and find you are mistaken.Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think that capitalism and environmentalism are incompatible? Not on topic, so feel free to ignore this...just was wondering since I never really understood your logic here.(A), (C), and (D)Disagree. Tens of millions of people listen to hip-hop/rap on a regular basis, and therefore the messages portrayed in these songs are some of the most influential in all of music (hip-hop/rap has influences that spread into many other nations around the world). Lupe's concern about the messages portrayed in rap go deeper than merely dissing other rappers. Like I've said a couple times before, he seriously bothered by the objectification of women in rap songs and thinks it is a serious issue. On this point I would have to agree. Girls growing up, listening to music that refers to them as nothing more than something to fuck is a real problem, and by standing up and pointing this fact out to an audience that may not want to hear it, Lupe is being (as he says) fearless. Now obviously you don't listen to rap so the issue isn't as important to you, but Lupe is talking to people who grew up listening almost entirely to rap. These are people who freestyle with their friends on weekends (harder than it sounds by the way, only a couple of my friends are decent at it) and many of whom see being discovered as a rap artist as the only way to get out of their situation.Materialism is another aspect of hip-hop that Lupe is arguing against, and once again I agree with his criticism. It's not news to anyone that most rap songs glorify lavish lifestyles, just turn on MTV cribs to see what I'm talking about. Gold chains, tricked out cars, even gold teeth...these are common subjects in rap songs. It doesn't take a genius to realize how unintelligent lyrics like these are.None of this really makes a difference though since you don't believe your own criticisms. Your own opinion of hip-hop/rap was that it was unintelligent before we started this debate. Scroll up and look, if you disagree...the proof is there.Lupe isn't allowed to criticize the fans of other artists, because that right is yours exclusively? Your logic is incomprehensible. How should he have responded if he sees a problem? "Um could you guys please stop making songs that degrade women? I would really appreciate that, thanks." Something tells me that this probably wouldn't get his message across to his listeners.Nor does your argument about the theme being important to you really undermine the song's message or lyrics. I care little about the issues of 19th century industrial workers in England, yet I can still recognize Hard Times by Charles Dickens as an extremely well written and important novel. You already know this since you don't live in New York (or maybe you have in the past, correct me if I'm wrong) and yet you recognize the lyrics of U2's song as being meaningful.As far as the self promoting part (A), even Shakespere bragged about himself in his sonnets. Your arguments about envy and spite are unfounded as well since the entire tone of the song is humorous. Once again, should he be politely asking the other rappers who write songs like Move Bitch to kindly stop degrading women? Face it, the only reason you have issue with this is because you went into this debate with certain notions about rap, and regardless of what evidence is shown to you, you will see what you want.Which brings us to (E).I told you that doesn't matter. We are trying to move beyond subjectivity a little. Were you to argue something like: "I don't like most rap because it is simplistically written and I disagree with the themes presented by many mainstream rappers" then you would have a legitimate argument. Actually that sounds familiar...Now, below I shall provide another set of lyrics which I consider to be good:What, you realize that New York wasn't a good example? I have no issue with U2 as a band (saw them last year in concert actually), and Bono's work with charities is inspiring. What confused me though is that I gave you the oppurtunity to choose any song in any genre, and you chose the one you did. I'm not trying to argue that "Dumb it Down" is the pinnacle of lyricism, but it is extremely well written. Does this mean that there are better songs out there? Almost certainly. Hell, I can think of some pretty quickly. All along the watchtower by Bob Dylan was written in the spirit of the Beat movement of the 60's and the lyrics can be classified more as a poem then the lyrics to a song (although the song itself is good too). My point with this being that finding another good song in and of itself doesn't show that Lupe's song is poorly written, unless it is somehow leaps and bounds better. Or to put it another way: no one could argue that Ted Kaczynski wasn't a bad man because Osama Bin Laden is worse.I did ask for an example of a song that does have good lyrics though, and if your point was valid then that song should not even be comparable lyrically to Lupe's song. It should be so much better that it makes Lupe's song look like it was written by a child, since you claim that the song (and all of rap) was terrible. I think I showed pretty conclusively that, at the very least Lupe's song is well written, and at best exceeds in quality the lyrics to "New York" by a large margin. You are unmoved however, so I will analyze the song of your choosing.Why is his rap better simply because he proclaims it to be?First, the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek. Second, he's not the only one since nearly every reviewer agrees. And even those who think his album The Cool was only good, and not great still point to "Dumb it Down" as a very intelligent and well written song. Even Jay-Z, one of the most respected rappers of all time, has called him a "genius rapper."The guy is having fun with this rap, and if you actually paid attention you would see this. He's confident yes, but not to the point of "spite and anger" as you proclaim. Now, maybe your not used to music like this, so I can understand if you didn't immediately pick up on the tone, but the chorus alone should have clued you into that.Again you presume too much (and To kill a mocking bird is better).I said that you may not be used to the language. Maybe you are and I'm mistaken, and if so great. The song will be easier to understand. With your petty complaints about grammar though, I'd say it's a good bet you aren't too familiar with it.Unrelated but I'll comment anyway: while To Kill a Mockingbird is a great novel, and certainly an American classic that deals well with race in the American south, Mark Twain's novel is historically more important because it is one of the first major literary critiques of the racism that existed in the south. Hemmingway said: "All modern American literature comes from" Huck Finn. I also enjoyed it because I am partial to satirical works, which is why Hard Times is my favorite 19th century British novel, and one of the reasons why I enjoy "Dumb it Down."The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere.when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chairYou skipped a part. I don't know if this was intentional or accidental but here is the full lyric:The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them thereTook both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him hereThe first line makes reference to the previous line when it uses the metaphor of the car (which I discussed in my previous post). I also talked about how he uses the idea of a minstrel show to compare how the shallow messages of current rappers compare to the shallow and racist portrayal of blacks in these shows. The next part, about roadkill in the grill could be referring to how other rappers are like roadkill in a car that he is driving or, since he gave over the wheel in the last verse it could be that the listeners/rappers are failing to avoid the BS (the deer and chickens) that plague much of rap. The last section of this line is likely referring to Lupe himself when he says he is trill (a slang term coming from the combination of the words "true" and "real" meaning that the rapper is well respected) and sincere. The second line of the section you quoted is, as I stated previously, is an allusion to the Matrix. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Neo, the main character (played by Keanu Reeves) is offered two pills (one red, one blue) by a man in a trench coat. The blue pill would transport Neo back to his normal life (which we find out is just an illusion created by computers). The red pill would take Neo out of the "fake" world and into the real one. Lupe, by saying that he is taking both pills, says that he will remain in the rap game, while staying real at the same time.Now I'm not sure what you found wrong with either of these lines, but I'm here is my interpretation of each if that clears anything up.Hence the absence of an analysis on your part? Don't worry, I won't run away because your argument is a page-or-two long.The reason I didn't write a full analysis of the song, was because I thought it was a pointless exercise. I mean you tried to analyze "Dumb it Down", and for the most part it was a waste of time for both of us. You are the one who is convinced "New York" is a good song, so I assumed you would be the one to try and convince me. The way you want to go about doing this is backwards. But fine, you want an analysis then an analysis you shall get. Like you when you analyzed the Lupe song, song however, I will be hindered by the fact that I am not familiar with the song. I'll do my best though:In New York freedom looks likeToo many choicesThis is clearly a reference to how much there is to do in New York, as well as a statement about how freedom, one of America's most important values, is so clearly exemplified in the daily life of New York. He also gives a slight negative connotation to the idea that there are too many choices, which probably refers to the whole idea that in our modern life we are offered so many options that it can be overwhelming. Reminds me of the line (I forget who said it) 200 channels, and not one good thing on T.V. In New York I found a friendTo drown out the other voicesEither this means that he met someone in New York who mattered to him, or, more likely, that New York was the friend he made which allowed him to settle his nerves. It was a place he really fit in.Voices on the cell phoneVoices from homeVoices of the hard sellVoices down the stairwellIn New YorkThese lines appear to be a representation of the singers anxieties which are soothed by his New friend (see what I did there?). He is constantly barraged by cell phone calls, his family, advertisements and...well I don't know what he's referencing with voices down the stairwell. Maybe there's a lot of buildings in New York, and thus lots of stairwells? If you have thoughts on this go right ahead and clue me in.Just got a place in New YorkThis is part of the narrative that he is going to be referring to throughout the rest of the song. Obviously he just moved to New York.In New York summers get hotWell into the hundredsYou can't walk around the blockWithout a change of clothin'Summers being hot obviously can refer to the literal temperature being so hot that people sweat through their clothes. On a deeper level he may be referring to all the activity that goes on in New York, and how many people have to show multiple versions of themselves when they go from place to place.Hot as a hairdryer in your faceHot as a handbag and a can of maceNew YorkI just got a place in New YorkYou analyzed part of this section, and there isn't all that much else there (so far as I can see, of course feel free to point out what I missed). The hairdryer in your face part is a pretty good comparison to a muggy day in new york.In New York you can forgetForget how to sit stillTell yourself you will stay inBut it's down to AlphavilleRelatively straightforward lyric. With the hustle and bustle of New York it's impossible to not be constantly doing something. There is always something going on so you can't stay in. I don't get the Alphaville reference...a place in New York maybe?The Irish have been comin' here for yearsFeel like they own the placeThey got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floorThey even got the policeReferring to the history of Irish immigrants in New York and their current political influence. Also a reference to Bono's own Irish heritage (presumably he is the one moving there? I don't know if this song is based on a real story or not)Irish, Italians, Jews and HispanicsReligious nuts, political fanatics in the stewHappily, not like me and youThat's where I lost you, New YorkSinger is commenting on the fact that there is a lot of diversity in New York, and a wide variety of different perspectives on things like religion and politics. The singer is saying that he and his wife are not like these ideological extremists, however.We also get another piece of information about the singers personal life, in that he lost his wife after they moved to New York.In New York I lost it allTo you and your vicesStill I'm stayin' on to figure outMy mid life crisisHere is the interesting part, story wise. It appears that while in New York something in their relationship went wrong and his wife left the city. The singer, on the other hand, is trying to deal with his mid-life crisis, by staying in the city, which he clearly loves.I hit an iceberg in my lifeYou know I'm still afloatYou lose your balance, lose your wifeIn the queue for the lifeboatMore juicy story lines. The comparison of his life to the sinking of the titanic is apparent and shows how dramatically and quickly his life has become a shipwreck. The singer is still surviving, but only barely and now without his wife.You got to put the women and children firstBut you've got an unquenchable thirst for New YorkNow it's beginning to look like he gave up his wife and kids for the city itself. He allowed the city to get in the way of his family and now they have left him, yet still he refuses to leave New York.In the stillness of the eveningWhen the sun has had it's dayI heard your voice whisperin'Come away nowPerhaps a final request by his wife to leave the city before he loses his family? Either the ending is ambiguous (he leaves or he doesn't and we don't know which) or as previous lines suggested, he stays in the city and doesn't leave.So that's what I got from the song. Assuming I didn't fuck it up royally (a big assumption for me to make) then I would argue that while "New York" may be a good and well written song, it still doesn't compare to "Dumb it Down" if we are judging both on lyrical content. I'm not going to say much more about it here though since you still need to tell me if I did the song justice (which is why this whole system of analyzing each others songs is backwards).Seems like you completely missed the political commentary to me.Well now I've missed it twice. How about we stop playing hide and go seek, and you just point out what I am clearly too thick to perceive.I disagree.While that's well and good, I provided an argument.So at one point you believe most rap is lyrically deficient, and at others you believe it is superior to all other genres, exclusively because of its lyrics.Ughhhhhh...I thought I was pretty clear about this but I'll spell it out.I think that most mainstream rappers have songs with hollow meanings and not a lot of depth. What these rappers can do though is write clever rhymes that usually have two meanings. The underlying theme of these rhymes though are usually about misogyny, violence or other equally shallow ideas (gold chains for example).Understand? These rappers are good with lyrics, but aren't really saying anything worth hearing. Lupe is both good at creating clever lyrics, and is talking about meaningful subjects. This is why he stands out.And I find it amusing that you are unaware of your own lack of ability, and wish to point out the irony of that statement. You misinterpreted New York, and now you accuse me of misinterpreting Dumb it Down.How did I misinterpret "New York"? I'm not disagreeing, and I very well could have (in fact probably did) but you offer no reasons on how I misinterpreted it. In short, show me where I fucked up. I'm assuming that if you had a good argument about how I fucked it up you would have presented it, for no other reason than to make me look bad. If this isn't the case however, and you do have a legitimate reason why I am inept at interpreting "New York" then go right ahead.Do you actually wish for me to do that? It is not a brief undertaking to decipher a poem, even a part of it. It can take hours to type, not to mention the point that poems have many meanings, and that it is virtually impossible to be wrong if you back up your assertions. To run through all the interpretations (even my own) is something I am simply unwilling to do.Oh god no, that's not what I meant at all. I might not be nice, but I'm not a sadist. My point was that you often can't understand a good piece of poetry merely by reading over it once. I definitely didn't want you to analyze "The Wasteland" though. That would have been terrible (unless you're into that thing). I also don't think that it's interpretation would serve any purpose whatsoever.To be clear: no need to interpret anything.This seems masochistic to me.I enjoyed ever single play. It's also one of the reasons I didn't mind writing a critique of it, because it allowed me to think critically about the lyrics, and revel in Lupe's genius. I'm not asking you to be a fan though, just to get a little perspective on why I am.Your illusions of intellectual superiority neither amuse nor intimidate me. In your contempt for me and my musical predilections, you reveal yourself to be of the same character of Lupe himself. While dragging oneself out of a ghetto is commendable, I wish that he would leave the idiosyncrasies behind; they are clearly infecting you.Feeling a little insecure are we? I'm surprised you haven't brought up meaningless test scores yet.I don't lay claim to any intellectual superiority. You aren't an idiot clearly, but you are arrogant and this is the only quality of yours I don't like, because it blinds you from the legitimacy of other's points of view. Don't mistake this as disdain or hatred though...you could be a great guy for all I know. I just know that on this site, you tend to act like someone whose opinion of himself is larger than the highest sky scrapers in New York.