saturate we talked about that and very critically and I think this is really underappreciated values are really insensitive to random initialization if you're working with a bunch of sigmoid layers you need to pick those random values at the beginning of your training to make sure that your activation values are in that middle part where you're going to get reasonable gradients and people used to worry a lot about what initialization to use for your neural network you don't hear people worrying about that much at all anymore and rail