the exact time probably in 1974 or something like that got a very eminent mathematician called Sir James light Hill to do a report on the AI Center yes yes and he produced a very damning report saying that basically saying these guys didn't know what they were talking about there was an interchange with McCarthy who was one of the fathers of AI yes I remember the seeing the interchange years later where McCarthy was saying look anything you can compute you can compute with symbolic operations so what we doing must be right hon light Hill