argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Law and Crime
Shirley Vivien Teresa Brittain Williams (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I apologise to the Minister but I was not aware that he was going to respond to the amendment now, which would rule out Amendment 14D to which I wished to speak. I turn to that amendment briefly to explain the point of it. It looks a very small amendment but it is a rather serious one Amendment 14D relates to those with whom the Secretary of State would consult in advance of putting out the various kinds of guidance, which has already been dealt with to some extent by the Minister in his very helpful amendment requiring an affirmative procedure by Parliament. That meets one of my major concerns, which is the involvement of Parliament in every way and at every stage of the Bill. That is absolutely crucial, especially given the scale of the challenge that the Minister on more than one occasion told us we must meet. The solidarity of Parliament in dealing with these issues is crucial Let me explain why I put down this amendment. It was for the very simple reason that absolutely nowhere in the Bill that I can find is there any requirement of any kind to consult the age group that we are most concerned about. There is absolutely none. There are no references to student organisations, youth organisations or for that matter young people at all. Yet I think many of us recognise—I will in just a moment give an example of this—that the most effective force to persuade young people to abandon any thoughts of terrorism is other young people. Statements by senior officials, however senior they may be, cut nothing like the ice and have nothing like the persuasive power as other young people who see the devastating effects of terrorism and bring those to the attention of their friends and colleagues. One of the things I regret is that the statutory requirement that students should be represented on university bodies which we brought in with the Education (No. 2) Act 1968 was abandoned by the then Government in 1987, so there is no requirement of that kind any more in law. One of the great advantages of requiring that students be represented on, for example, university courts and academic panels was precisely that they were then brought into the operation of the university itself, and into its responsibilities and its authority. That became an important and significant factor in dealing with what one might call young extremism.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): The concern we have is that an assessment of their costs has not been made. As I said in moving the amendment, the more that the universities and colleges have thought about this—and many of them have still not got the draft guidance—the more they realise that this is imposing a very considerable bureaucratic burden which they will have to pay for.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Shirley Vivien Teresa Brittain Williams (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I am a little worried because the argument is moving towards the costs of bureaucratic reviews and so forth, and away from the central point that I believe to be critical for any chance of success in what the Government are trying to do: the formal involvement of young people. At the moment, and I hope my noble friend will forgive me for putting it this way, there is nothing in the Bill requiring universities to formally discuss with their own students how they handle the requests and guidance from the Government.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I thank the Minister. I have to be honest with him and say that he has not addressed at all the nub of Amendment 14B, which requires the report first of all to concentrate on the cultural impact on universities, particularly the academic freedom and mutual trust within them between staff, students and so on. He did not say a single word about that, which leaves me concerned, because either he thinks it is insignificant or he has no answer to our request for a report. Since everyone tonight—
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I have to disagree with the Minister. It seems to me extraordinary to argue that we cannot afford to do our homework, so let us just make this law and see what happens. Because that is what he is saying. Also, it is no good talking about guidance without realising that, once it is brought into force, it has the effect of law; it becomes enforceable, even unto the point—the Joint Committee made this point—of somebody going to prison. A vice-chancellor could end up in prison if he or she flagrantly refused to comply with what he or she thought was a serious incursion on academic freedom I remain confused as to how the Government can say, "Well, it will all come out in the wash"; we do not know what the academic consequences are, whether cultural or in any other way, but you can make a complaint later if it does not work. That is not good enough. This House should not be imposing a regime of this nature without the facts and without due research having been undertaken. We may be the only country in the developed world that will have a statutory regime of this nature. That alone should give serious pause for thought.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I am grateful for that, but I want to say a word on the second amendment. Most of the debate has been around the need to inquire of the students themselves how they view the consequences of the guidance becoming law. The Minister did not make reference to that. Does he agree in principle that universities, including the students, should be consultees prior to the guidance being finalised and brought into effect? This extends the duty of the consultation to universities under the provisions of Clause 28. I am bound to say that I cannot see, in view of all that the Minister has said, why the universities should not be consulted, along with the other two bodies named in the Bill. They are the people most affected and surely, therefore, the Government could at least say that they will be consulted before the guidance is finalised I hope that the Minister will respond to that and then I will consider withdrawing the amendment.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): That is a very fair way of wrapping this up, but just to make this clear, the Minister did not refer, in responding to the amendment, to the universities as such. All that he said was concentrated on the young people at the university. However, on the basis that he will have an open mind when looking at this—because it will cost the Government nothing to make the universities consultees, and I believe that it will go some considerable way towards assuaging the concerns that are behind both these amendments—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Shirley Vivien Teresa Brittain Williams (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I have a very simple and totally inexpensive proposal, which is that in issuing the guidance the Secretary of State will make plain that he or she expects a university to consult its students before deciding to agree to accept the guidance that is then issued.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Law and Crime
Sarah Virginia Brinton (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, my name is on Amendment 14F and I also want to thank the Minister for his Amendment 14E. As I said in Committee, after going to war, curtailment of freedom is one of the most important things that a Government must consider doing. Given the seriousness of that, it seemed extraordinary that there was no scrutiny by Parliament, so I am grateful for that. On a slightly lighter note, and not strictly to do with this amendment, the fact that 33% of terrorists have been to university was repeated this evening. I wonder whether we need much more draconian measures for schools, given that 100% of terrorists will have attended school.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Government Operations
Andrew Wyndham Phillips (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I have one more technical question to ask the Minister; I have given him notice of it. His Amendment 14E starts by saying: "Guidance issued under subsection (1) takes effect on whatever day the Secretary of State appoints"— so it appears to start by saying that this is solely about the timing of when the guidance should be brought into effect. But the second part of the amendment is technical, stating: "A statutory instrument containing regulations … may not be made unless", it is approved by both Houses That seems a very odd way to put the fact that the guidance is to be approved as to content as well as the timing of its coming into effect. It would have been much happier if the provision had said at the start explicitly that not only is the guidance taking effect on the day set out in the regulations, but that the content will be laid before Parliament One can erect a technical, logical argument that the content must be included within the timing, so to speak, but as this is so important, I would be most grateful if the Minister can confirm that Amendment 14E as drafted is intended to mean that both Houses of Parliament must affirmatively approve the content as well as the timing of the guidance.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Margaret Sharp (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 15B in my name and that of my noble friends Lady Brinton, Lady Williams and Lady Hamwee. Before speaking to that amendment I would like to say that I have a great deal of sympathy with the arguments that have been put forward by the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady O’Loan. If the Minister is going to think again about his amendment, I hope that he can find some way of incorporating these thoughts into that amendment. I realise that, as it stands, it covers guidance. The issue that we are coming on to, which is the issuing of directions, carries that forward and has a much more direct challenge to the autonomy of universities than the issuing of guidance The other amendment is directed entirely to Clause 29, which gives the Home Secretary the power to direct any authority, including universities and other educational institutions, to issue a direction if she is not satisfied that the authority has been discharging its duty under Clause 25(1) We discussed this at considerable length in Committee and I do not want to repeat the arguments that we rehearsed at that stage. The Minister in reply to that discussion stressed that this was in every way a last resort power which it was hoped would hardly, if ever, be used. He suggested that perhaps it was just there in the background to try to make sure that people took the guidance seriously. Nevertheless, considerable disquiet remains about its possible usage. This probing amendment seeks to clarify the procedures which might be used. It seeks to ensure that the Government inform the authority of any direction that they are minded to make, and that the authority concerned should have the opportunity to make representations before any final decisions are made to issue such a direction. It also seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State will consider those representations before making the final decision. It seems natural justice that, where such a last resort power is used, the institutions concerned should have a chance to know why the power is being used and to make their own case against it.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Donald Thomas (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, if the Minister is not prepared to accept Amendment 15B, can he assure the House that a direction that has been issued would be subject to judicial review and, in the consideration of the judicial review, that the court would bear very much in mind whether a proper opportunity had been given to the university concerned to consider the complaint and to make representations about it? If that were an assurance from the Dispatch Box, I think that the amendment would no longer be necessary.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Education
Shirley Vivien Teresa Brittain Williams (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I have one short point, which has not been raised before, to add to this part of the debate. We now have in this country approaching 100,000 overseas students, a high proportion of whom—about one-third—come from China. A directive from a Minister to a university, as perceived by an overseas student from China, would be very close to being a government censure on that university. The amendment moved by my noble friend at least gives an opportunity for a university to set out why it has refused to take the action that the Secretary of State has enjoined it to, and to explain whether this is a relatively minor aberration or a serious defiance of the directions that the university has been given. That really could be quite important in terms of the attraction to students coming from overseas countries, especially those that have—shall we put it like this?—rather coercive Governments.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Government Operations
Sally Rachel Hamwee (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): Before my noble friend sits down, I should say that he referred to Clause 39, where the reference is to the "combined area". I intended my questions to be rather broader than the combined area—where authorities collaborate to provide particular services and activities. As I understand the term—and I may be wrong in this—that does not amount to a combined area. More current experience in local government indicates that I may be right. I took my examples from the response of the London Borough of Sutton. I did not name it, but it was talking about working in collaboration with Croydon. I think both Croydon and Sutton would be pretty surprised if they were thought to be a combined area. I am prepared to reflect, but I am trying to give my noble friend an opportunity to respond, since he has not sat down yet—in the House of Lords parlance.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Government Operations
Sally Rachel Hamwee (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I have referred previously to the cost of the statutory duties—in relation not just to the substance, but to the infrastructure built by the Bill. This amendment refers both to, "local authorities and other specified authorities", but I particularly had in mind local authorities. I am not sure that I have yet done so, but I declare an interest in that I am joint president of London Councils I have previously mentioned the "new burdens" principle, which might be expected to apply to these activities, and I have previously referred to some of the costs which have been estimated by the Government. London Councils is unconvinced by these My noble friend Lord Scriven will speak to this amendment, so I shall simply explain that, as a way of drawing attention to the costs, the amendment proposes an annual report to Parliament by the Secretary of State. The matter could be included in a report dealing with other matters. Maybe there should be some prospective reporting of the costs anticipated to be incurred On the first day of Report, I think it was, the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, referred to the refusals to disclose money allocated to the Metropolitan Police for counterterrorism for security reasons, though, as he observed, some detail of that budget eventually comes into the public domain as it is scrutinised by the London Assembly. I used to chair the Assembly’s budget committee, so I remember all that There should be as much transparency in this area as possible. There is a lot of concern about the costs and, in any event, what money is spent on what is a matter of public interest. I beg to move.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Government Operations
Paul Scriven (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): The impact assessment states that extra work will happen because of the statutory duty, so the Government have made very clear that extra costs, not just to local authorities but to other statutory bodies within local areas, will be brought about by the new statutory duties. I am not clear what to follow as the specific guidance: the answer that the Minister is helpfully trying to give or the Government’s impact assessment, which is very clear about extra costs being associated with these new statutory duties—not just for local authorities but for other statutory bodies as well.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Government Operations
Sally Rachel Hamwee (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I, too, am bemused about whether this is a new burden or whether the cost will be nil. I do not have the impact assessment with me, but looking back at the costs that I quoted in Committee on 28 January, I see that I referred to the impact assessment estimating that the total cost of the measures for England and Wales would be around £40 million, although within that, the cost of placing Channel panels on a statutory footing has been estimated at nil. Perhaps everybody is right. I am also bemused at the figure of £62 to train 10 staff. That seems remarkably little. I presume that it covers the trainer and the time of the staff being trained. My noble friend and I have both been quoting Sutton because we have had the material to help us. It is certainly right to say that in terms of London boroughs, Sutton is a small borough I am grateful to my noble friend for agreeing to make sure that at least the information that has been put out is correct and that there are no queries hanging over that, and particularly for his offer to consult with the umbrella organisation London Councils. I have no doubt that this topic is one which will be raised repeatedly in conversations between local authorities and DCLG, as well as with the Home Office, but I am glad to have had the opportunity to air this, and it is important that the points made by my noble friend have got out into the open. I am sorry, I am not suggesting that there has been any attempt not to reveal anything. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-04
Topic: Law and Crime
Sally Rachel Hamwee (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I welcome the government amendments. In my clumsy way, I tried to deal with the issues raised by the independent reviewer about his remit and the new board at the last stage. The Minister referred to two of the five issues that the independent reviewer sought to cover, which I tried to cover at that last stage. I am flattered that he suggested that my Amendment 16A comes from my own interest and concerns about the Justice and Security Act and the disclosure of sensitive material, closed material proceedings, special advocates and all the rest of it, as well as my concerns about immigration and nationality law. I indeed have those concerns but I cannot say that this is a self-started amendment. I was asked to pursue the subject. The independent reviewer has made clear that he wants this. He does not seek to go beyond the counterterrorism area. I hope that the amendment is clear on that. His blog has already been quoted and I shall quote from it too. He wrote: "It is however a shame that the Reviewer was not also given the opportunity to review the operation of other powers, including immigration powers, to the extent that they are used for counter-terrorism purposes. I have no evidence whatsoever that any of those powers is used in an improper manner. But in such a sensitive and secret area, it is as well to have the assurance that only independent review can provide" He continues by quoting from his report of last July, which said: "More than one person of a suspicious cast of mind has suggested to me that the unreviewed powers (for example, the use of the Royal Prerogative to withdraw passport facilities) are likely to be used for the purposes of doing the Government’s ‘dirty work’" I suggest my amendment because the independent reviewer has a holistic approach to this whole area. Individual case oversight and different reviewers, to which my noble friend has referred, while reassuring, do not meet the points that the reviewer has in his mind. He clearly looks at how the whole of counterterrorism legislation is operating and has ranged beyond the relatively narrow legislative remit that he has had in the past. Previously, I have heard him say that he is not seeking a turf war with other reviewers but, equally, he does not see these things in silos, which is why this amendment has come forward. I beg to move.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-02
Topic: Law and Crime
Sarah Ludford (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): My Lords, I meant to ask the noble Baroness a question before she sat down. My noble friend Lady Hamwee emphasised that this is about providing a summary of the reasons for the suspicion. That is not proof or anywhere near it—it is not even a great deal of detail—but a summary of the reasons for suspicion. The requirement has quite a low threshold and would at least provide a basis on which a person may comprehend why these powers were being exercised. It seems reasonable and not too high a threshold to expect of the security services and the police.