argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Alun Craig Williams (Conservative, Centre-right): Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. That enables me to talk on so many more subjects than I had planned to, but let me accept my own challenge to say something different. I want particularly to look at what Dr Tully, the Forensic Science Regulator, has said about the Bill, commending and reiterating the need, as has been recognised on the Treasury Bench, for statutory enforcement powers to protect the criminal justice system. It was quite a hard-hitting report, released earlier this year, which commends the Bill and the statutory powers The Minister has touched on the effect of an earlier statutory instrument that was brought to the House. Police forces are likely to step up very quickly should the Bill move through the House at pace. The SI that transposed EU law into UK law on 25 March 2019 led to an increase from 9% to 90% in fingerprint and DNA analysis in just a few months. That demonstrates to the House the worthiness of the Bill, and that it will turn into action incredibly quickly.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Alun Craig Williams (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is correct. I see this more as the exception than the rule. I alluded earlier to the consensus across a wide range of stakeholders, and I would not dare to rise to my feet in his presence and recommend something purely based on what a regulator said, but this is about the weight of stakeholders, alongside the regulator—who on this occasion is correct, in my judgment—encouraging us to do something I want to reflect on some live cases. We have heard today about the county lines raids happening across the UK. This is extremely welcome. County lines leave a scar across our country, but are felt most extremely in our rural communities, small villages and towns. I pay tribute to all the forces that took part in the raids conducted today and to the National Crime Agency. The raids lend themselves to showing the importance of the Bill, because they involved 43 regional forces in England and Wales and forensic science will play a huge role in turning those 1,000 arrests into convictions.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. He is quite right. I point out the critical role that forensic science will play in that exercise. By the appliance of science, as they say, we can connect telephones used for the prosecution of the drugs trade to people who previously thought they were anonymous to the extent that within sometimes just a few days of being notified of a number that has been used for the promotion of the drugs industry in a particular town or area, we can be through the door of that person, who is sometimes at two or three removes from the dealer.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Alun Craig Williams (Conservative, Centre-right): It is extremely rewarding for my constituents who deal with that day in, day out to see the scale of the arrests today—more than a thousand. Again, I pay tribute to those officers. As the Minister alluded to, forensic science plays a huge role in the intelligence gathering and the prosecution of those evil people who commit such offences on vulnerable people across our constituencies. We need standardisation to ensure the quality of the forensic science that the Bill and statutory powers would provide.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is right that no hon. Member would want to give any solace to those evil people, as he puts it, but it is also the case that the Government are involved in those issues, and they are not always the beneficent wonderful huggy bear of an organisation that our socialist colleagues opposite sometimes seem to think. My concern, which was provoked by the Minister’s response, is that giving the standardisation a statutory underpinning would not only create equivalence across agencies, but be a back-door way for the Government to extend their powers and the investigatory authorities against local police forces that may not think that wise.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Alun Craig Williams (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend brings a sobering note to the debate. Clearly, we need the powers and the standardisation of the quality of evidence to ensure that our constituents are protected, but Parliament, having put them on a statutory footing, needs to keep playing an active role to watch that the fears that he describes do not arise. I would say that about any power that we give to any colour of Government To stick to my practical points, I underpin what I was saying about the county lines raids and welcome the quality of evidence. The Bill will bring more power to the persecution of those evil people. I also pay tribute to my force, Dyfed-Powys police, and its trailblazing efforts in forensic science, which have seen cow DNA used for the first time in a conviction earlier this year. Any hon. Member who represents a rural agricultural community will know that forensic science is changing the way that we police our great countryside and shires A farmer in Dyfed-Powys lost a heifer in 2017. Like any good farmer, he soon recognised it in a neighbouring field but of course could not prove it, and the case went on with Dyfed-Powys police for some years. Luckily, a breakthrough in forensic science proved through DNA sampling that the lost heifer, which was next door with a naughty neighbouring farmer who happened by chance to find that obviously prize-winning heifer in his field and who produced a fake cow passport and, indeed, fake tagging, was his. He was reunited with his cow and there was a successful prosecution. I am pleased to tell the House that there was a £4,000 fine and £500 in costs. It was indeed a very moving occasion for all of us in Dyfed-Powys.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making, in a charming and agrarian way, a very important point about us having confidence in the forensic system. Forensic science is advancing all the time, and that holds particular promise in the area of cold cases. Those are cases where crimes—often heinous crimes—have been undertaken, but the evidence is just not there, and forensic science at the time had not reached a position where it could help with the prosecution. Often, the passage of time results in the deterioration of other evidence, such as witness evidence—people’s memories go, or the witnesses to a crime are not necessarily present —but the forensic evidence remains. The development of techniques that allow us to re-examine that evidence and put convictions in place is vital, and that requires a level of assurance and quality There is no case more illustrative than the conviction of the killers of Stephen Lawrence. Developments in forensic science led, 18 years after that heinous crime, to the analysis of one particular spot of blood on some clothing that was retained, which then led to the conviction of the individuals. While I acknowledge my hon. Friend’s quite sane, sensible and principled concern about state action, I remind him that, in this place, we regard the law as our protection, and often it is the absence of law that leads to the kind of state musculature that he is concerned about.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Alun Craig Williams (Conservative, Centre-right): I echo the Minister’s words: there is no crime too small or too large in this country that will not be helped to be solved by this incredibly important Bill and the underpinning of the quality of evidence I will conclude by paying tribute again to Dyfed Powys police. They not only led the UK—indeed, maybe the world—in the conviction of that particular naughty farmer who pinched the heifer, but they did the same with stolen sheep in 2017. These crimes are incredibly important to rural Wales and rural UK. The Minister mentioned some severe and heartbreaking crimes. In agricultural crimes, we will be able to turn on the criminals because of forensic science, if we can get the quality and the assurance right, so that wherever they are, no sheep rustler will be safe.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is giving a fascinating tour de force on the history of forensics. She is quite right about the history, and it goes even further back. I know she will recall—although not because she was present—the celebrated case of Dr Crippen, who was alleged to have murdered his wife and fled to the United States. On searching his home, the police found a torso under the floor of the house. Pathologists were unable to identify whether it was male or female. No limbs were ever recovered, the head was gone, and many of the bones of the skeleton had gone. However, on the torso there was a scar that was deemed to be commensurate with medical attention that Dr Crippen’s wife had undergone. Although there was some debate about the scar between the scientists, along with some critical forensic evidence concerning a fragment of pyjama, it led to his return from Canada and the United States, where had had fled, and to his eventual conviction and execution.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is absolutely spot on in his analysis. One of the joys of the free market and allowing businesses to thrive is that they can contribute and give us a wide base of providers. I fully endorse what he says. That very much forms part of the structure that we are looking at, which the Bill will hopefully strengthen. Standardisation will help us to move towards a more efficient system. I am delighted that the National Police Chiefs’ Council also supports this proposed legislation Going back to "Quincy, M.E.", I cannot remember a single case being thrown out because the laboratory was not up to the correct standards or because people were not sure of Quincy’s credentials or the competence of those undertaking the work—as I said, Sam was very good, while Quincy was having his coffee or whatever it was—but we live in a very different time from the 1970s and ’80s. Digital forensics now plays a highly important role in police worked. I was an aspiring computer programmer once upon a time, on my Amstrad, typing in BASIC, which is now completely obsolete, of course. I am having to relearn things Non-accredited labs are open to far more challenge. We can be proud that we have high standards in the UK, but a move towards a statutory, regulated service would help to build on that and reduce the potential for any challenges to be made in court. We do not want to be losing cases on technicalities, and this Bill will help to prevent that I very much welcome the Bill. I thank the hon. Member for Bristol North West once again for introducing it, and everyone else for their contributions.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I am more than happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance. I come, I guess, from the point of view of the Thomas More philosophy. I think it was Thomas More who said: "This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast" He then asked whether, if those laws were chopped down, "you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?" I understand my hon. Friend’s caution about greater regulation, but these are matters of sensitive intrusion into personal freedom by the state. In those circumstances, I believe they are warranted in the cause of freedom and, as I said earlier, to shield us from an over-mighty state; to regulate, not only for a well-tempered market for provision but so that everybody, when they are presented in court before 12 of their fellow citizens for adjudication on their crimes, knows that the evidence is presented to a quality and standard in which we all, including them, can have confidence.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I understand the issue that the hon. Gentleman is raising, but he surely cannot believe that faulty or non-standard forensic evidence should be tolerated within the judicial system or that we should have no sense of regulation or, indeed, standards that need to be adhered to. Of course, he will also recognise that while forensic evidence, underpinned by statutory codes or otherwise, is entered into court as evidence, it is still subject to challenge, as is the skill, the technique and the science used, by defence counsel or, indeed, prosecution counsel, when it is entered in. It is part of our adversarial system of justice that, whatever evidence is put in is still open to challenge and is not taken as definitive, and it is then for the jury to make a judgment. If forensic evidence is offered and it is from an accredited organisation, which is reaching a certain standard or not, then we would hope that had some weight with the jury, but it does not absent it from challenge by the defendant’s counsel.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): The Minister makes some very sensible points in rejoinder. Let me see if I cannot unpick some of them, although generally I agree with him, if I may say so. The point that I am trying to make, in the context of evidence being under challenge in a court, is that if the audience—in this case, the jury—does not have specific scientific knowledge and has been in a culture where forensic science is seen as always on the side of the good guys and always trying to do the right thing, and it is presented with evidence that has the authority of a statutory underpinning of standards, we are doubling and trebling down on the scale of what a defence barrister has to do to overcome the presumptions of a jury that is saying, "Oh well, it’s evidence, it’s expertise. I’ve seen it on TV and therefore it must be right." My concern is that, with this marginal move to provide a statutory underpinning, we are in a sense giving another stamp of validation that makes precisely the challenge of juries, which he is saying is so important, a little bit more difficult.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): To amplify that point, my hon. Friend and I may be drawing the line in a different place, but presumably he does believe that anybody who attends as a witness at court to present forensic evidence should have some kind of scientific qualification that is certified and held as a standard, and which therefore underpins the expertise they are giving? Presumably he does not think that anybody could walk in off the street and present forensic evidence. There needs to be such a regulatory hurdle, as it were, before they are allowed to appear as an expert witness. I guess what we are saying, as the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) said, is that we would like to get to a situation where the question in people’s minds about whether these people are amateurs, cowboys or actually know what they are doing—on both sides, because do not forget the defence can present opposing forensic evidence should it so wish—is settled earlier.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): If I may, I will make some progress and then give way Let me try to share a little bit more of my concern. Of course, I understand what the Minister and the hon. Member for Bristol North West are saying. I do not doubt that people coming in should, in principle, have qualifications personally. I am not anti-expert, for want of a better phrase, but I do not agree with the Minister because I want all doubt to be eliminated from the jury about whether the person making such claims is speaking with ultimate authority This is precisely my point: we are all fallible, and even the best methodology is fallible. There are many instances where the best evidence of the time was presented and there was a huge miscarriage of justice. There is, I think, a sentiment among us that we think experts are experts and that science and data are fantastic. We have cultural impressions that reinforce that. My concern is that the Bill is taking us even further on that. If we are going even further away from the understanding that whoever is in front of us is subject to human failings when we are talking about complex issues, I find that somewhat more alarming than perhaps the Minister does I do not think that is a particular fault of the Bill; I raise it as a concern about how we operate in a much more complex world, and the jury system needs to be suffused with doubt about human intentions in the information presented. If we do not have that doubt, innocent victims will never get the full benefit of the judicial system. That was my point.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Government Operations
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): If I may say, that contribution from my hon. Friend has been one of the most valuable. He talked about how the Bill, in providing a statutory underpinning, will provide an opportunity for those listening to evidence to have more of a structure for what they are hearing that is completely independent from the case at hand. I am grateful to him for raising that I would like to move, if I may, in the second quarter of my contribution—or the second half of my contribution—to the broader issue of Parliament, regulators and the way in which we review the powers we give to regulatory agencies. Notwithstanding how a regulator is welcome in this particular sense, there are broader issues at stake about what Parliament and Government do next with regulators I point out to the House that this regulator will, I presume, be responsible to the Home Office—I hope so, because that is the only Department for which I have the data to hand—but 30 agencies already report into the Home Office, and that is of 413 agencies and other public bodies listed on the gov.uk website, all of which have an array of statutory or other regulatory enforcement powers. I ask hon. Members to consider when was the last time any hon. Member conducted a thorough review of any one of those agencies.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Government Operations
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I hesitate to intervene on my hon. Friend, but I think that in the early days of the Cameron Government, Francis Maude, the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, undertook a thorough review of all bodies and quangos across government and consequently reduced the number significantly.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Government Operations
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): Indeed, he reduced it to the 413 I just mentioned. Heaven knows what it was before. It is evident that although the number may have reduced, parliamentary oversight has not improved. As politicians, we are far more interested in looking forward to the new and the additive than in looking in the rear view mirror to see how well the agencies we have already created are operating and whether they are keeping to their original scope. Are they implementing the powers that they have, whether or not statutorily underpinned?
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable about those matters and he cites one of what I think may be many examples of where regulators continue to act, but we as a Parliament, having devolved those powers to them, pay them scant regard. I am afraid that it is not in the nature of Members of Parliament to be interested in what they have done, but to be oh so very interested in what we shall do. Perhaps the Minister will reflect on that. The Institute of Economic Affairs is undertaking a study on regulating the regulators. I encourage hon. Members to look at that work and perhaps participate in that organisation’s efforts Several hon. Members have rightly raised the costs that will be imposed on our police services. I am interested in whether the Minister will say whether he anticipates that making the powers statutory will put additional costs on our police services and what his answer to that is. We know that costs will increase from £100,000 to £400,000. Will the Minister confirm that that is the current figure and whether he anticipates that it will increase? I would also be interested to know whether that includes the cost of compliance and enforcement. If we put the powers on a statutory footing, is the £400,000 estimate supposed to cover all the enforcement actions and the regulator’s investigatory requirements, or will that require an additional amount of money? I am concerned about the additional costs that we may incur Putting a regulator on a statutory footing is not a panacea. It does not assure us that errors will not be made. Another concern is that if several police forces are consistently found to breach statutory guidelines, will that information become evidential in courts that other forensic evidence from those forces should be viewed as not up to standard? I am worried that the change will have unintended consequences, and I would like the Minister to reassure me about that Sadly, I know that I have to end so that other hon. Members can participate. I would like to go on—and on—but I hope I have raised a couple of points, perhaps from a slightly more sceptical point of view, that other hon. Members in their brevity did not have the opportunity to make. I wish the hon. Member for Bristol North West the best of luck with the progress of his Bill.
Public Interest Disclosure (Protection) Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Government Operations
Michael Jon Wood (Conservative, Centre-right): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing her Bill in the ballot. Does she agree—from what she is saying, she may well come on to this point—that at the heart of any effective whistleblowing system is a reliance on those investigating complaints internally being able to act independently and with neutrality to resolve the issue at an early stage, long before it gets anywhere near an external whistleblowing situation?