argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Environment
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time It is an honour and a privilege today to introduce this Bill, which has had extensive scrutiny in its passage through the other place. At the outset, may I thank Her Majesty’s Opposition—the new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), and her predecessors, and the Chief Whip, who has spoken to me extensively about the Bill—for their co-operation? I also thank colleagues from across the House. Sadly, some colleagues in the House are going to oppose this Bill, but, within reason, across the House and across the country we have agreement. I hope that during this short Second Reading debate we will be able to convince those who do not think it is a good thing, because last year 129 people lost their lives in this country because of what they thought was a legal, safe high The Bill is a broad piece of legislation, and I freely admit it is new to this House, as we are bringing in a blanket ban. The reason we are doing that is simply that we have been chasing the chemists from around the world for too long. We have attempted to ban 500 substances in this bracket, but then they have tweaked the formulas and the next minute we are back in the same position again.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I did not expect to be in confrontation with the hon. Lady so early on, but I think, yet again, that she is wrong. I have been to the Republic of Ireland, as well as to Northern Ireland, and not only seen the damage that these psychoactive substances have done, but met Ministers and their chemists. They think their legislation is working, and I agree with them, and New South Wales has implemented similar legislation within the past five days. The rest of the world may not be right, but in this case I think it is. I have looked extensively at this issue, as has the Select Committee on Home Affairs previously—it is doing so again and we are awaiting its report. In the Republic of Ireland the head shops vanished overnight. There are young and old people who thought these drugs were safe. Whether or not we or the scientists like to call them that, they are classed as and felt in the public domain to be legal, safe highs. That is what young people think they are.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): Under this legislation, the highest penalty for selling or purchasing these products—particularly for selling—will be seven years, which is not a light sentence. It indicates the severity of the offence. We do not want to criminalise a whole group of people who have, for many years, been buying a product that was perfectly legal, but there are some real changes that we need to make on behalf of our constituents, which is why we are all in this place. For once, we should get ahead of the drug dealers and chemists. Huge amounts of money are involved not only within the paramilitaries but within organised crime. By having a blanket ban, there are real concerns that we will be banning things that we all enjoy. I am talking about caffeine—
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I will give way once I have finished this part of my speech The truth of the matter is that we will have an opportunity at Committee and on Report to look carefully at what the Home Affairs Committee has said and to see whether it can be used to improve the Bill.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): The Minister mentioned amendments in the House of Lords and sentencing. He will know, because we have corresponded about this, that one of my concerns about this otherwise excellent Bill is to do with the statutory aggravating factors. At the moment, a person will receive a stiffer sentence if they sell outside a school, but not outside a children’s home. I urge the Minister to look at the amendment that was proposed in the House of Lords, encouraged by the Children’s Society. Also, given that the substances are very often targeted at young people—I have evidence in my own constituency of the drugs being used to lure young people into inappropriate sexual relationships—he might consider an amendment to make it a statutory aggravating factor to sell to anybody under the age of 18 so that it attracts a stiffer sentence. Will he consider that on Report?
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is absolutely right; we have corresponded on this matter. I have looked carefully at what was said in the other place. The Sentencing Council will be responsible for the guidelines. I know that my hon. Friend and the Minister in the other place have agreed to write to the Sentencing Council, and I will do so as well. I will, if I may, keep a very open mind about this matter as we go through the Bill’s stages, particularly the Committee stage If we are to have a Sentencing Council, we need to use it in the way that it was designed. I know that there is an anomaly, but my view is that at the moment I will keep an open mind on the matter.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): We want such places to close down before this Bill is passed. I want this House to send a message to those who are selling these products—head shops or any other premises, or those selling in other ways—that on the day this Bill gets Royal Assent, such selling will become an offence. In saying that, these people have been selling these products perfectly legally for many, many years, so we need to give them an opportunity. This is only part of a process. We are talking about educating the public as well as helping people who are addicted to these substances. At the end of the day, these sellers have to know that, from the day this Bill gets Royal Assent, selling these products is illegal and attracts a seven-year sentence.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
David John Barrington Burrowes (Conservative, Centre-right): I very much commend this Bill. I have been calling for it for many years. The Sentencing Council has an important role to play. Under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, sentencing is linked to harm and is commensurate with the offence. At present, there is inequality in sentencing between all types of new psychoactive substances. We need to be clear and link the harm level to the sentence, and that is the important role that the Sentencing Council will have to play.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): That important matter was put to me when I gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee. The difference between what we are doing here and what we are doing with other illegal substances is that this is a blanket ban. If we try to indicate the level of harm on every single one of these substances we will be here forever, which is why we have gone for the blanket ban, and why the Republic of Ireland did the same. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), we will continue to look at this matter, but the guidance to the Sentencing Council is very strong. I am so pleased that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) said that he had been calling for this ban for some time, because I shared an office with my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate for five years and I know exactly what his views are. I can genuinely say that apart from a few nuances here and there, most people want to see this Bill on the Statute Book.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): It will be just the same as if a person went to a head shop. It is illegal. The National Crime Agency, which is now operating in Northern Ireland—I visited it recently to see the work it is doing—will be working with other agencies to ensure that we prosecute those involved in the crime. People say to me that the web is so open, but at the end of the day, purchasing, like selling, is an offence. If a person purchases these products, we will try to ensure that they are convicted. It does not matter whether they purchase them from a head shop, a friend or online, it is an offence. We are talking about purchase, not possession.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Andrew George Stephenson (Conservative, Centre-right): When I raised this matter on my Facebook page yesterday asking for the views of young people in my constituency, one constituent said that some legal highs specifically say on the packaging that they are not fit for human consumption. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that such a statement will not allow the producers of these drugs simply to bypass the new law?
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I can confirm that. There are uses for some of these drugs within industry, and we want that to continue, particularly in the research field. We cannot help the people who are addicted to some of these substances if we do not give them the right support. If it is seen that someone is producing a product for an industrial use, or for any other use, but they are knowingly selling it, they will be prosecuted. It will be an offence whether or not the product carries that label. That is imperative as we take these measures forward.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Agriculture
Stephen Phillips (Conservative, Centre-right): Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), it seems to me that the difficulty is that there will be a defence for suppliers of so-called legal highs under clause 5(2) if they do not know or are reckless as to whether the substance is likely to be consumed. If people can say that they are not selling products for human consumption because all that happened was that someone came in and asked for some plant food, it does not necessarily follow that they will be committing an offence under the Bill and that the head shops referred to by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) will close straight away.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I am sure that many individuals in this House could pick on individual substances that have gone underground, making the situation worse, but the vast majority of products that were sold to people who thought they were safe are no longer being sold. That has happened in Ireland and in other countries. I had the New Zealand Minister with me only the other day to look at exactly what we are trying to do. The legislation has been campaigned for over a considerable period and we are taking action, which I would have thought is exactly what we should be doing As I have said, I will table amendments in Committee. We listened carefully to the work done by our noble friends in the other place and we will have to make quite a few consequential amendments to frame the amendment they made in the Bill. We are also considering whether there are areas in which we should ban possession.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Stephen Charles Brine (Conservative, Centre-right): The Minister mentions the word "possession". The word "prisons" appears on the face of the Bill only once. I see that the Prisons Minister is sitting with him on the Front Bench, and I wonder whether when the Bill goes upstairs to Committee they might consider making possession an offence inside the secure estate.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I have received a large number of delegations that have made arguments about the effect on the prison population, on prison officers and on morale and safety within the secure estate, which includes prisons, and we are going to look very carefully at whether we can propose an amendment. I believe that there are some processes to be followed to ensure that we can do that, but the Prisons Minister and I are minded to ensure that the prison estate is as safe as possible for prisoners as well as staff. Legal highs are having a massive effect on that part of the prison estate as well as on other parts of the secure estate. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), like others in the Chamber, has campaigned long and hard on this issue and has brought it up on more than one occasion. We are considering the issue and I hope to table amendments in Committee.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): The spirit of the Bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for possession, but we are going to criminalise the sale and purchase of these substances. That is in the Bill and in the spirit of the Bill, and is in line with the work that we have done.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I do not understand this argument, and I do not know whether the shadow Minister does. If someone is buying a product that is illegal, that will be illegal. If they are selling a product that is illegal, that will be illegal. We will not criminalise a small group of people—
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Mark Julian Francis Pawsey (Conservative, Centre-right): If this is about people knowing that the products are illegal, can the Minister tell us a little bit about the education campaign that will go hand in hand with the legislation to make certain that young people are aware of the dangers and the fact that they will be committing a criminal act?
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend makes an important point. As I said earlier, this is only one part of a campaign to make sure that people understand the dangers and the change in legislation. The police are starting to talk to people and are going into schools. Treatment is important too, but it is a difficult area. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise the issue.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Stephen Phillips (Conservative, Centre-right): I confess to the Minister—I am trying to help—that I am a little confused as well. I do not think that the Bill creates an offence of purchasing so-called legal highs. Importing is a different matter, and is dealt with in clause 8, which he will no doubt confirm. If he can do so the debate about people buying so-called legal highs and being criminalised will go away May I tax the Minister on something else? It is my understanding that if a user of legal highs purchases three or four pills over the internet that are not for human consumption, then gives them to his mates on a night out he has committed an offence. In Committee, we may have to look at whether we intend to criminalise those individuals in the Bill.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I apologise if I have confused hon. Members. Let me try again. There are relevant provisions: producing a psychoactive substance, which is dealt with in clause 4; supplying, or offering to supply a psychoactive substance, which is dealt with in clause 5; possession of a psychoactive substance with intent to supply under clause 7; and importing or exporting a psychoactive substance under clause 8. I apologise: I kind of misled the House unintentionally on individual possession. I was talking about intent to supply, not intent to use. Making a purchase from a foreign website would be caught, but the purchase on its own from a website or foreign website would not, and I apologise if I misled the House on that point.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Daniel Leonard James Poulter (Conservative, Centre-right): The Minister is very generous. Does he agree that there is a particular challenge in dealing with the supply of substances from overseas areas outside British jurisdiction? Having an offence in relation to the purchasing of those substances on the internet, which almost certainly would be the means of purchase, helps in some ways to deal with a situation that is otherwise difficult to deal with and legislate for.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): The logic is to try to stop dealers bringing stuff in through websites. That is close to the legislation that is being used in Ireland, where it is working, so we think it is appropriate We will make sure that the House protects people without criminalising any individuals for having small amounts of a substance. We are going to do something that should have been done years ago. There will be a blanket ban so that chemists, organised criminals and, in some parts of these islands, paramilitaries do not work together. We will make sure that the legislation is as tight as possible and will at last do something we should have done before by introducing a blanket ban on psychoactive substances. I hope that the Bill completes its Second Reading this evening.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Stephen Phillips (Conservative, Centre-right): Does the hon. Lady share my concern, which we need to consider when we think about the Bill, that the closure of the head shops makes it possible that the entire trade will be driven underground, that it will link itself with the illegal drug trade, and that those who might at present go on to the high street or into a garage and purchase what they think are legal highs, which may be very dangerous for them, will end up using much more serious class A and class B drugs?
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): I raised this issue with the Minister in Ireland, where local authorities and others can use the powers they have been given without having to go all the way to the criminal courts. This Bill also gives extensive powers to local authorities. That addresses some of the hon. Lady’s concerns, but the Bill Committee will look at the issue in more depth.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Stephen Phillips (Conservative, Centre-right): A point that may not have occurred to the hon. Lady arises from the two points that she has put to the Minister—the impact on the MOJ’s budget of the difficulty of proving that something is a psychoactive substance within the meaning of clause 2. That issue will inevitably have to go to a jury, and will therefore require expert evidence on both the prosecution and the defence sides. Has she considered the potential financial effects on the legal aid budget if clause 2 is not amended?
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Law and Crime
David John Barrington Burrowes (Conservative, Centre-right): Attempting to prove the behavioural impact of cannabis on fitness to drive is subjective and can cause problems. It can result in prosecutions failing and can defeat lawyers and experts. We need to consider the ACMD’s additional recommendation to link the definition of psychoactive to the public health threat. That, together with certain tests included in the Bill, will provide objectivity and clarity We need to work on sentences as well as definitions. As I said in an earlier intervention, it is important that someone who is convicted in court is dealt with in a way that is commensurate with their offence. They must be dealt with justly, which means that cases involving controlled drugs should be linked to harm. We need to look carefully at that. The Sentencing Council will have its work cut out, but we should ensure that it is able to play a leading role in ensuring that people are sentenced appropriately. The maximum sentence is seven years, but plainly not everyone who supplies NPSs will face that penalty. In such cases, one usually considers purity as well as the links to harm We all agree on education and treatment. Between 2013 and 2015, £180,556 has been spent on NPS education. We need to do better than that. This Bill should spark off further educational investment. Prison education is also important. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), who has responsibility for prisons, is present. I understand that in the past year, 30 ambulances have attended north-west prisons because of NPSs. That is an issue of education as well as of restricting supply. Something is clearly going wrong and it is impacting on our prisons On treatment, we visited the drug clinic in Chelsea and Westminster. It is run by the Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust. Its specialist, bespoke work does a great job of addressing why someone takes a particular drug as well as treating them. That provides a lesson not just for specialist clinics, but for our treatment system, which is behind the times. Gone are the days when we just doled out a substitute drug to treat those addicted to opiates, crack and other controlled drugs. We are talking about the new drug on the market and it is causing harm. We must ensure that the drug treatment system across the country wakes up to the fact that we should deal not just with the substance, but with the addict and provide all the therapeutic support they need and deserve. I hope the Bill will spark off that approach. I have waited many years for this Bill, as have others. I will not take up any more time. Colleagues who are waiting to go home have been very patient, but I hope they feel that this Bill is worth the wait.
Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords] — House of Commons, 2015-10-19
Topic: Foreign Trade
Michael Penning (Conservative, Centre-right): This is why we have given such wide-ranging powers to trading standards in the legislation. When we had the glue problem, we addressed it through trading standards legislation, which is why we no longer have the terrible problem that we had on our streets just a few years ago.