argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Roy Kennedy (Labour, Centre-left): I think I heard the noble Baroness correctly, but I might be wrong, when she said earlier that council tenants receive a taxpayer-funded subsidy. If that is the case, will she say a bit more about it?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): Could the noble Baroness specify what form that subsidy takes? Certainly in the local authorities I am familiar with, the rents charged cover maintenance, repairs, collection, administration and the like, and receive no taxpayer subsidy—unless the Minister is saying that anything below market rent is a subsidy by definition, which I think is an absurd position. As far as I am aware, there is no subsidy. Perhaps the Minister can specify in what ways the taxpayer subsidises council tenants.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Jeremy Hugh Beecham (Labour, Centre-left): Market rents are artificial. There is nothing God-given about market rents because they are determined by landlords, largely on the basis of a shortage of affordable housing anyway. In so far as there is a subsidy, surely it is the subsidy that is paid in the form of housing benefit for private tenants, about which the Government propose to do nothing at all In addition to that, the noble Baroness referred to the need for consistency across all local authorities. She has not made an argument for that, she has merely stated it as a given. The Government do not take the same view about council tax. They did in a sense when they introduced the poll tax, and they seem to be making the equivalent mistake here with local authority rents. It is an absurd proposition that the same system should apply across all local authorities irrespective, for example, of the value of the housing and average local incomes. Where is the justification for the simple assertion that that must be the basis of the scheme?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Jeremy Hugh Beecham (Labour, Centre-left): Would the effect of encouraging people on higher incomes to buy their houses not be, ultimately, to diminish the number of houses for those who cannot afford it and who, apparently, the Government want to help?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Jeremy Hugh Beecham (Labour, Centre-left): The Minister has just said that the object of the scheme is to get people with higher incomes to pay the full rent, move out of the property or perhaps buy it—she was talking about Help to Buy. The effect of that, ultimately, is to diminish the pool of houses available for rent by the people whom she thinks need support.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): Would the Minister please repeat her statement about the difficulties caused by rents changing as a result of this policy, particularly in the period between notification and payment? The whole push of our previous two hours’ discussion has been that she is producing a system in which every tenant will pay a different rent—probably month by month—according to what is happening to their earnings.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Mixed Topics
Roy Kennedy (Labour, Centre-left): Many of the amendments in this group are probing ones and these matters would be better left to regulations. However, we come back to the problem: we have not got any regulations so scrutiny is extremely difficult. That leaves us having to put down amendments on these issues to try to drag out the Government’s thinking. At the end of the day, the amendments are on the Order Paper today only because the Government have sought to push the Bill through at such a pace and not wait for the regulations to be made.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, the Minister has now said twice that, under her proposals, any household paying a higher rent under pay to stay should, instead, be thinking about right to buy, and that she would prefer them to do that. If they are local authority tenants, can afford to do so, and wish to, they will already have taken this up. Why does she think they have not? One reason is that, with renting, changes in housing benefit and UC can be made in the course of the year if income fluctuates and circumstances change—the very situation which tax credits were devised to adjust. If you commit yourself to buying a property, no such consideration takes place of whether you can, or cannot, afford your mortgage repayments. If you are struggling with your income, your zero-hour contract has collapsed, or your partner has gone somewhere else, you are still stuck with it. Tenants may, therefore, have very good reasons—this obsession with pushing those who have chosen not to buy into right to buy, and whipping them there by virtue of the pay-to-stay rent policy, is disgraceful.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Jeremy Hugh Beecham (Labour, Centre-left): I have a final final question for the Minister. She said that the Government are going to discuss matters with Citizens Advice and tenants groups. I very much welcome that. But are we to infer from that that until now they have not discussed the scheme and how it might work—that they will be discussing the final scheme, as it were, and how both groups might advise residents, as opposed to involving them in the first place in designing this scheme?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Roy Kennedy (Labour, Centre-left): Perhaps I might make one final comment—it will be my last on this group. Will the Minister agree to reflect on some of the comments made in this debate and the previous debate, particularly the comments of my noble friend Lady Hollis? In the previous debate we were talking about income levels and rent levels changing almost weekly or monthly, but here the Government want a consistent level. For me, the two debates highlight some inconsistency and we need to look at that. Again, we do not want to get ourselves into difficulties in the future.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Immigration
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I think we recognise that the Minister is doing her best to be helpful but does she not think that this is a little odd? She had a firm view about pensioners—that they should not be exempt from pay to stay—but she did not really have a clear view on whether any of the other groups mentioned in the amendment would be entitled to some consideration or exemption from pay to stay. We are in Committee, the Bill having gone through the other House, and the Minister still cannot help us—I am sure she would like to—as to who will be caught by this policy.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Other
Margot Aline (Labour, Centre-left): I am grateful to the Minister. She is clearly trying to be as helpful as she can be, but if we really are not going to have this information by Report, we will just go through all this again, which is in nobody’s interest. We are not asking for the actual draft regulations but the information about which groups will and will not be exempt. That is the least we can expect by Report. But on the basis that we are not going to get anything more now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Margot Aline (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I raised a number of questions at Second Reading which never got a reply and, as they are relevant to this group of amendments, I thought I would have another go The first follows directly from what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, just said: why was it decided to reduce the earnings threshold from that in the existing voluntary scheme? Am I correct in thinking that there is no intention to increase the threshold in line with average earnings, thereby pulling more and more tenants into the net of pay to stay? If so, why? What protection might there be for vulnerable tenants unable to provide the necessary documentation? Crisis has raised concerns that they could be liable for the full market rent, regardless of their actual income. We can think of a lot of situations where there may be good reason why someone has not provided that information, but it would be totally unfair for them to have to pay the full market rent Finally—I did not raise this at Second Reading, but I raised it two groups of amendments ago and the Minister did not come back to me—there is the whole question of the lack of equivalisation. There will be such a crude means test that takes no account whatever of family needs. We are not treating like with like; we are treating the same income to meet rent, regardless of how many mouths have to be fed from that income.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
William David McKenzie (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I start by apologising for not having participated in debate earlier, but I was on duty in the Moses Room. I support Amendment 77A. I may have missed some of the issues raised in previous debate, but there is variability not only because someone’s income may be derived from self-employment. It could be because they are employed but subject to a zero-hours contract. It could also be because the household changes I do not know whether we yet have a clear definition from the Minister of what will constitute the household for this purpose. Under the voluntary scheme, it was the tenant and the spouse, although there is also reference to the two highest earners. It would be helpful to have the intent clarified. Clearly, if it is the whole household, or all of the adults in the household, that can change. In many ways, that is more likely to change in an urban than a rural area. However, that is a key issue, as is the basis of the income. Will the Government try to use real-time information, which is fraught with challenges, or work on a preceding-year basis, around which the voluntary scheme was structured? If the latter, there are more likely to be variations between the base year and the year to which the rent levels are to be applied This whole approach is fraught with difficulties, but until we have clear definitions of household income and the basis of that income, we will struggle with the outcome.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Dale Norman Campbell-Savours (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, Amendment 79, which was tabled by my noble friend on the Front Bench, took my eye. It provides that the definition of, "high income cannot be set at a level lower than median incomes" As I understand it, the effect of that would be to raise the threshold by from about £30,000 to £40,000 on properties outside London and from £40,000 to more than £50,000 in London.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Dale Norman Campbell-Savours (Labour, Centre-left): Amendment 79 states that the definition of high income cannot be set at a level lower than median incomes. That would raise the thresholds, would it not? I do not like the system at all, but that at least raises the level at which people would start to pay a higher rent. Will Ministers seriously consider that amendment I really want to talk about Amendment 72, which provides that the amount of rent to be charged to high-income tenants is, "to take into account the need to promote socially cohesive and mixed communities". That is a very important issue. The other night, I was talking about what happened in west Cumberland, when I was minded to support right to buy early in the 1980s. Some of the estates in my area had a high density of renting populations, and I did not believe that was particularly good for social cohesion. I believed at the time that the introduction of the right to buy in areas such as mine in the north of England would help social cohesion by widening aspiration within communities The provisions of the Bill make me worry that as property is subsequently sold, which is what will happen, there will be pressure due to higher rents being demanded. In employment law, I think it is called constructive dismissal; in this field, I would call it constructive eviction. That is what people will feel: they will be all but evicted by the requirement to pay higher rents I am losing my train of thought. Perhaps I should give in at this stage. I will retake my seat and gather my thoughts. I am very sorry.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): I thank the Minister for giving way. We know that appeals procedures usually take several months; we also know from experience that people’s income fluctuates very widely. How would the Minister protect local authorities from having to recalibrate the rents to be charged each and every month to their tenants? How will the local authority ever stay on top of that information when the tenant is going to appeal continually and reiteratively, I suspect, on the basis of the misinformation of the local authority in imposing the last rent increase, which was based on information sent into them four, five or six months before? Surely, this is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake—that the administration of this should have been piloted; then there would be a learning loop as to the problems. I would hate to have to do this, if I were in charge of housing in a local authority. The Minister is passing a nightmare over to local government with monthly, individually tailored rents as income monthly fluctuates.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): I still have not got the faintest understanding of how pay-to-stay rents will connect with people’s incomes and UC. Clearly, universal credit is established on a monthly basis on real-time information and in due course will include housing benefit, if that is a flow of income. How often does the Minister expect pay-to-stay rents to be adjusted by the local authority over the course of the year in the light of changing incomes as reflected in UC—monthly, quarterly, yearly? Every answer has a distinct downside.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Roy Kennedy (Labour, Centre-left): I am sure the Minister has picked up from the debates on this group and the previous couple of groups that, the more we drill into this, the more and more complicated it is getting. She and her ministerial colleagues have some job to get this right. I am sure it will get worse. It is very difficult to get this right and, in some ways, I wish her all the best On another point, I think I heard the Minister give the number of people on incomes of more than £50,000. If she is using that figure in her arguments, why are we setting the rates for higher rents to start at £30,000 and £40,000?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Dale Norman Campbell-Savours (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to an authority—I did not know whether it was a mythical authority or a real one that he was not prepared to identify. I can tell him that in the county of Cumbria, there are a number of authorities that would fall within the basic case that he was making: certainly Carlisle District Council; Barrow-in-Furness; probably Copeland, which is in Whitehaven; and, apart from the lakeland part of the districts concerned, certainly Allerdale When I asked councillors in Cumbria the other day what the level of rent was in the private sector of houses that had been sold off, I was told that there was very little difference—a marginal difference—maybe a fiver or a tenner on a property. So what are the costs to be incurred? The Bristol brief, which I assume everyone has received, goes into a little more detail. It says that even though very little detail is given in the Housing and Planning Bill, as a minimum the scheme would have to include income verification, data matching, measures to discourage and combat fraud, dealing with inquiries, market rent setting, rent accounting, audit processes for the additional rent raised and processes for internal and external review. That does not include appeals and overpayment recovery. There is an additional factor: investigation. We know that the departments concerned with the benefits system have investigators, which cost money. I am presuming that local authorities, particularly where they have substantial housing stock, if they are to meet the Government’s targets on these matters, will have to employ people to carry out this work. These all add to the administrative costs of implementing the scheme in areas where the differences between the private sector rent of a former local authority property and the local authority rent are only marginal That leads me to the view that the Minister should very seriously consider Amendment 75A, because it at least allows local authorities to have in mind what those costs would be and whether they should not proceed to pursue people in the circumstances that will arise.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Roy Kennedy (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, this group of amendments, as we have heard, concerns the payment of rental income to the Secretary of State and seeks to deal with issues for both tenants and local authorities that the blanket application of the policy may create. Amendment 75A, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best, and supported by me and the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake and Lord Stoneham of Droxford, seeks to give the Secretary of State the power to disapply the policy if it becomes clear that the costs of assessing the incomes of local authority tenants would be disproportionate to the additional rental income achievable from this provision. From what we have heard already, in many low-wage areas this assessment would be a complete waste of time and money, and achieve next to nothing. This would give the Secretary of State an easy and convenient way out of the mess that has been created Amendment 81A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and my noble friend Lord Beecham, seeks to ensure that the full administrative cost of undertaking this exercise for the Government will be taken into account and deducted from any payment made to the Government. Again, I cannot see how the Government can really resist this; otherwise they are expecting local authorities to do all the work for them, pay them the money and bear all the costs. That does not strike me as very fair at all In Clause 84(3), the Government have given themselves in effect a get-out-of-jail-free card by saying that the regulations may provide for deductions to be made to reflect the administrative costs of local authorities. That is just not fair. Amendment 81B proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, and myself, would change "may" to "must". This is an important change which needs to be made When I was looking at the Bill, I spotted Clause 84(5), and we tabled Amendment 82. Clause 84(5) says: "The regulations may provide for assumptions to be made in making a calculation, whether or not those assumptions are, or are likely to be, borne out by events" That is utterly ridiculous—a kind of "think of a number and double it" clause. It is absolutely ridiculous that that is in a Bill before your Lordships’ House. If it was not so serious, it would make you laugh. When you think back to Clause 73, no wonder the Government are seeking to keep the money collected, even though they may have taken too much, because they may have made totally ridiculous assumptions in arriving at the figure in the first place and may have collected too little. They are seeking protection through this clause, and it has to go. I shall draw my remarks to a close but, as this is Committee, I may intervene further during the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Other
Patricia Hollis (Labour, Centre-left): I am sorry but this is a subsection of Clause 84 and we do not know what it means and what the implications are. This Bill has gone through the House of Commons at great length and Ministers cannot tell us what it means?
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Jeremy Hugh Beecham (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, this group deals with the supply of information by HMRC in respect of the income of tenant households, as enshrined in Clause 81. The clause states that HMRC may disclose such information for the purpose of enabling a housing authority to determine whether it is obliged to charge a tenant a specific rent level and for determining what that level should be. Subsection (2) provides, reasonably enough, that the information may be disclosed only to a local housing authority, the Secretary of State or a body with which the Secretary of State makes arrangements for the information to be passed between HMRC and local housing authorities, but it also, somewhat mysteriously, provides that it may be disclosed to, "a public body that has been given the function of passing information between HMRC and local housing authorities" It is one thing for HMRC to supply details to a local housing authority but quite another for it to do so to some as yet undefined organisation—in the words of the Explanatory Notes, "a single body nominated by the Secretary of State to act as the ‘gatekeeper’ for this purpose", albeit that HMRC has agreed to this procedure. Perhaps the Minister will indicate whether there was a proper consultation with HMRC or whether it was simply asked to frank the proposal.
Housing and Planning Bill — House of Lords, 2016-03-14
Topic: Housing
Dale Norman Campbell-Savours (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I am very worried about this amendment and wish to speak briefly to it. I foresee some junior employee in one of these private companies sitting there with, on his or her desk, the most personal information about individual council tenants and their incomes. I find that utterly deplorable. I am astonished that Conservative Members of this House and the other place did not object to this. Historically, certainly when I was in the Commons, whenever there was an argument about the revealing by the Inland Revenue, as it was at the time, of information outside the government department, there was always a storm of protest. But people seem to presume that this is acceptable on this occasion. I wait to hear the Conservative Members of this House and government supporters challenge all the implications that lie behind this clause This is wrong. I would also like to know the detail. Will there be a regulation—I am sorry to have to ask for a regulation now—which defines precisely the nature of the details to be provided by HMRC? Where subsection (2)(d) refers to, "a body with which the Secretary of State has made arrangements for the passing of information between HMRC and local housing authorities", are those bodies to be defined somewhere? We presume that they will be private companies, but are there other organisations which have not been mentioned which we might wish to consider when we come to Report?