argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Housing
Jonathan Mendelsohn (Labour, Centre-left): I thank the Minister for that reply. It is worth making a few brief points, the first being on the genesis of the amendment. Since our discussions in Committee, we have all been looking for ways in which we can still support the industry and the sector. We have been kicking around the draft of a partnership investment agreement between the pub companies and the tenants to find a framework that will work. What is important about the investment agreement arrangements is that the discussion has been about a partnership. It has become clear throughout the process that there is great difficulty and, in some cases, there will be a large variety of problems which prevent the sector moving forward in the sense of partnership. The amendment is intended to address that and to ensure a reasonable balance of options. Where there is investment, we want to ensure that there are no circumstances where it could be argued that a tenant did something which they did not mean or that they could be fooled, and that they enter into nothing without full appreciation of the situation. We also want to bring out the best in the pub companies as they seek to work with their tenants towards achieving a better outcome It would be nice if the £200 million of investment that we have heard about had actually gone into developing estates. We have tried to address this over a long period; we have even been through the annual reports and other things. Most of that investment is for things that go wrong or the general upkeep of buildings. Development of the commercial future of the estate represents a very small proportion of that. It is important that investment is considered on the basis of what it achieves for the ongoing development of the businesses and the sector. In trying to put something in the Bill, we wanted to set some tramlines. Unless there is a clear sense in the Bill—in that regard, I am grateful for some of the Minister’s comments on the tenant Act—our fear is that arguments over secondary legislation will be less helpful, will have the problem of unintended consequences and will poison discussion between the parties. In this debate, we have seen how that affects things. We feel that it would be sensible to consider such a provision. We would be grateful if the Government could consider the matter again and come back at Third Reading with something which gives us a better indication of how the framework of secondary legislation can be put together or at least some of the tramlines. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Peter Snape (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I fear that I am going to miss the dulcet tones of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on the rest of the Bill. I have sat through this paean of praise for the pubcos at Second Reading, in Committee and so far during the proceedings in your Lordships’ House today. I have some sympathy with the noble Lord’s view about the events of the late 1980s; it is a pity that he was not around in the other place when a Conservative Government were insisting that the power of the brewers at that time should be curbed. He obviously feels that the outcomes of that legislation, such as the beer orders that followed, have led to the situation in which we find ourselves now. Yet the contradiction appears to be that, while it is fair to say that he deplored the effects of the beer orders and what took place—the sell-off of the pubs and the relinquishing of the tie between the brewers and pubs has led to the pubcos that we have today—he has spent every stage of this Bill defending those same pubcos. He cannot really have it both ways; if the beer orders and their aftermath were so bad in the 1980s in creating these organisations, I wonder why he has spent so much time defending them during the passage of this legislation.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Peter Snape (Labour, Centre-left): I am grateful for that clarification; perhaps if the noble Lord had made it at Second Reading we might have spent less time bickering. The noble Lord’s Amendment 33Y seeks to put into the Bill some exemption for franchise agreements. The Minister will correct me if I have got this wrong but I think the Government have taken care of those franchise agreements and arrangements within the Bill itself. If they have not, they left themselves enough time, with the consultative procedures that the Minister has so ably outlined, to look at them again over the next few months, when these consultative arrangements are actually taking place. The problem with accepting the amendment, of course, is that in effect it would pre-empt that consultation and we would be likely to see the pubcos working their way around the legislation in the way about which the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, warned us. So although I found him as lucid as ever, I think that he convinced one or two of us on this side of the House that his amendment not only was not necessary but, were it to be accepted by the Minister, would lead to an even worse situation than we are in. Surely the noble Lord can see that making exemptions in the Bill, denying the adjudicator and the Pubs Code the opportunity to consider what agreements should be exempt, and to reverse that exemption if it transpires that the exemption is being gamed at a later date to circumvent the legislation, is the proper way forward. I hope that the way in which the Minister indicates the Government’s attitude to this amendment will indicate the way in which they will take this matter forward Like the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, I am coming to the conclusion of my own remarks on the Bill. I would like again to say a few words about investment. It has been a consistent theme of the noble Lord that the Bill and the failure to accept his amendment would have a serious negative effect on investment that the pubcos make in licensed premises generally; I think that that is a fair summing up of his position. However, when one looks at what I repeat is the myth of investment by the pubcos, a different situation is immediately apparent. In 2014, for example, Punch invested £43 million in its core estate but sold pubs to the value of £111 million. It has already announced that it hopes to make £307 million from selling over 1,000 of its non-core estate. Enterprise Inns invested £66 million in pubs that year, then disposed of £73 million-worth of them. This does not sound to me like either a prosperous industry or an industry controlled by those who seek a sensible and profitable way forward for it, regardless of the legislation before your Lordships today.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Housing
Anthony Gueterbock (Labour, Centre-left): Could my noble friend clarify whether those investment figures are those quoted by the companies concerned, or are they the figures that they told the landlords they were investing but in fact did not, so the landlord had to do it and then got charged extra for the investment that did not happen?
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Peter Snape (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, the figures that I gave were the ones that the pubcos themselves published, but I certainly agree with my noble friend. Again, without detaining your Lordships too long, I could produce in the course of the debate on this amendment 14 or 15 independent licensees who told me—along, I am sure, with other noble Lords on both sides of the Chamber—about the broken promises made by the main pubcos about investment I admire the oratory and indeed the optimism of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, who not only told us that these institutions—the pubcos, whose creation he inadvertently deplored as a result of the legislation passed by a Conservative Government back in the 1980s —were really decent chaps who are anxious to invest in their property, but forecast the result of the election as a Conservative majority. However, my reaction is: has he put his money where his mouth is? Even better, perhaps he could put the pubcos’ money in that direction because, like me, he does not know the outcome. None of us does. Not even those well known pundits, the pollsters, can tell us the result of the next election. I admire his optimism, if not his sentiments, as far as the pub industry is concerned. I hope that the Minister will do as she has done with the two previous attempts made by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, at amending this legalisation and will smother him with honeyed words but kick his wishes into touch.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
John Lawrence Whitty (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, the two amendments in this group deal with the issue of the threshold. I will be as brief as I can The discussion earlier today and in Committee has shown that there is an awful lot of movement within the pub world: there is buying and selling of pubs between large pubcos, breweries and other companies, and there is a lot of change in the status of pubs between being managed and tenanted and between different forms of tenancy, such as from tenancy to franchise and vice versa The definition of the threshold here is rather static in that it relates only to tied pubs. The Minister has made it clear that the definition of tied pubs includes franchised pubs, and I hope that she will repeat that assurance here today. I had also hoped that she would be slightly more favourable to the earlier amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, which related to pubs that are tied other than by beer and cider provision, because there are other forms of tie than the purely alcohol tie. Because pubs move from one status to another, and indeed from one company to another, it is surely a lot easier to define the threshold by the total number of pubs. Otherwise, there could be some gaming to avoid the threshold, or indeed changes in the structure of the industry that alter the way in which the code and the MRO option would apply The Government have said that if we did that we would run the risk of completely inappropriate pub owners falling within the area of the Bill. First, as of now, it makes a difference of one company, so it is not a comprehensive reassessment; it is just an easier way that will stand the test of time for longer. In any case, as was referred to in the debate on the previous amendment, if any company is caught inappropriately by this provision, either because of the threshold or for any other reason, the Government have the power under Clause 71 to exempt that company or companies. It would therefore be a lot easier were the Government to accept the rationale of what I am saying. It would make the operation of the code a lot easier and clearer. It would not make a lot of immediate difference, but it would, as I say, stand the test of time, given the volatility of the patterns of ownership with the buying, selling and changing of status within this sector. I beg to move.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
John Lawrence Whitty (Labour, Centre-left): I thank the Minister for that response, and particularly for her reassurance on the record on the inclusion of franchisees in the definition of the 500. The point here is that this is all about the balance of power, as she said herself: the power of very large companies that have pubs of different status to shift them from being tenanted and tied to tenanted and not tied, and vice versa, and from tenanted to managed, which applies as a result of their size. The code, of course, will relate only to their relationship with tenants of tied premises. So, in a sense, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and to some extent the Minister, miss the point—it is defining who by size and influence on the market would be most likely to present a problem for their tenants in this respect I do not think that I will get anywhere with the Minister tonight. I hope that the Government will bear this in mind, but at the moment clearly it makes very little difference—the difference of only one company. I hope that the Minister will not get the lawyers on to her for having named that company. Nevertheless, it is important that the vast majority of tied pubs are covered, and her definition of the threshold would ensure that. But down the line, again, there may be a problem with pub codes if large breweries began to change their status on a large scale of the pubs under their control. But for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Housing
John Lawrence Whitty (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I shall not move the amendment, but I want to say a quick word on Amendment 33AY. I was very disappointed when the Minister, who obviously thought that it was already chucking out time on the pubs section of the Bill, said in replying to my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn that she would not look again at the question raised by Amendment 33AY: in other words, that she was not prepared to look at what, from my perspective, is a disproportionate infringement of the rights of the tenant. While there is a change of owner, all other aspects of the code and of the lease will apply to terms and relations between them and the new owner, except the very one on which Parliament has insisted. I find that a bizarre position and one that may be politically difficult for the Government. I urge the Minister, even at this late stage—and the noble Lord, Lord Popat, is looking at it very assiduously just now—to say that she will have another look at this before Third Reading and come forward with her own proposition, or at least have some further consultation on the matter before Third Reading. If they do not do so, as this was central to the concerns of the House of Commons, I fear that they will find themselves in some difficulty when the matter goes back there. Given that we all want to get this Bill finished with, although it is not very evident that we do today, there is a possibility of the Government running into trouble if they do not have another look at what is covered by Amendment 33AY. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Popat, to reflect on that on behalf of the Minister.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Housing
Jonathan Mendelsohn (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, there is certain irony in a Government who used the company wrapper on the purchase of property as a means of enhancing taxation perhaps not having been alive to the considerable opportunities that the amendment may present in the long run to deal with a variety of other things Aside from that, I thank the Minister for her reply. Uppermost in our considerations, in this and other amendments that we will come to, is ensuring there is the right level of transparency to ensure the integrity of how this country’s financial system operates. That is a goal we share. Both parties feel that, over time, they have dealt with the issue, only to find that problems come up again. It will constantly be work in progress and there is no step that one can take that will be sufficient to give everyone confidence that these matters will be dealt with. It would be useful for the Government to examine this area further. It is not a question of size or numbers. The reason that this problem is manageable is that a smaller number is involved, as opposed to the large mass of homes, and there will be little impact on the larger, law-abiding mass of people I am encouraged by what the noble Baroness has said. It is encouraging that we are looking to amendments that produce further enhancements to make sure that the ambitions that she has set out are fulfilled. I hope that she is sympathetic to them. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Michael Goodall Watson (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I offer my support to the Government on Amendments 35 and 42; I very much welcome both. I accept that individuals may have their details protected from being published in the PSC register in exceptional circumstances, and I have been reassured by Ministers’ comments in your Lordships’ House and another place stating that exemptions will be given only in such circumstances. I am sure that that will remain the case. In this respect, the Government have strengthened the Bill during its passage through both Houses. In another place, the Government accepted an amendment from the Member of Parliament for Hartlepool, whereby proposals for classes of companies to be exempted from the register should be subject to the affirmative procedure, which will allow greater scrutiny and debate I am also pleased that the Government have introduced Amendment 35 today, which will highlight in the register where a protection exists. This is a real step forward for transparency and accountability I have argued at previous stages of the Bill that the public interest test must always be available to challenge an exemption when new evidence comes to light. I ask the Minister whether she will undertake to keep this matter under consideration and to do likewise with regard to publishing a list of broad categories under which exemptions can be given Turning to Amendment 42, the requirements associated with proposed new Section 790O(4)(d) to the Companies Act really were quite prohibitive and ran counter to the spirit of the introduction of a register. Removing that proposed new section will have a significant effect. It will allow organisations and members of the public to view businesses’ registers and publish the information where they deem it necessary I tabled a similar amendment to this in Committee, and I appreciate the Minister listening and acting on it. I also want to record my thanks to noble Lords from across the House who spoke in favour of that amendment in Committee.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Mixed Topics
Robert Stevenson (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I simply want to add a little to the comments of my noble friend Lord Watson. In his typically modest way, he did not take enough credit for himself for raising some of the issues. I think he touched on them at the end of his remarks, but without his probing in Committee we perhaps would not have got as far as we have. With the additional help of the DPRRC’s recommendations, which were very firm in a number of areas relating in particular to the change to the affirmative procedure but also to matters related to foreign limited partnerships and directors’ responsibilities, we have now got to a much better place. We are very grateful to the Minister for listening so well and for bringing forward these amendments.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Michael Goodall Watson (Labour, Centre-left): I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I always listen to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, carefully. He always makes very considered contributions to the House, although I may not agree with him very often. This is one of those occasions. I regret that he seems to be making a speech that should have been made three months or so ago at Second Reading, because he is not arguing specifically against the amendments that I have put down; he is arguing against this section of the Bill in its entirety. I accept that he is perfectly entitled to do that, but these arguments have already been given a considerable airing I just would draw his attention to the amendments, which say, "where the control"—that is, the control of a company— "is exercised through a chain of legal entities" That will not impact on many small and medium-sized enterprises. This is for large, complex organisations, which is why I mentioned the figure of some 2% that it has been estimated would be affected. The other companies will have to say who their person of significant control is anyway, whatever the size of the company. In most cases, it will be the chief executive. This part of the Bill will not be a burden to any significant extent on smaller companies. The bigger companies, which have an international dimension and therefore will have a complex structure, are those that we are trying to catch with these amendments. It is not in any sense about companies based in the UK that have no ownership outside the UK.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill — House of Lords, 2015-03-09
Topic: Other
Jonathan Mendelsohn (Labour, Centre-left): I thank the Minister for that reply. I was busily writing notes and wondering how I might be able to salvage a position, while feeling that today we have not really made as much progress as we would have liked. However, I must say that on this amendment I am exceedingly grateful for what she has said. We will take those assurances and look forward to hearing the progress with the letters. With many thanks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015 — House of Lords, 2015-03-23
Topic: Civil Rights
Kenneth Morgan (Labour, Centre-left): I join others in thanking the Minister, who has been extraordinarily tolerant and helpful in our discussions. I have one brief query that I would like to raise. We have heard about who might be considered to monitor and examine the role of speakers and organisations in the universities. What will they actually do? It has been widely said that the Prevent strategy has not been very successful, because it has given Islamic groups and the Muslim community a sense of victimisation and the feeling that they in particular are being targeted, which is not at all what one wants. How does one avoid this on university campuses? Will all these monitoring activities focus on a very small number of societies and groups, or will all societies be involved in this? How are we to avoid the charge that individual bodies are being victimised? It seems to me that such extraordinarily general themes as non-violent radicalism are capable of being applied to almost any kind of student activity or student debate that one could conceive of, so how does one strike a balance between non-victimisation and proper inquiry?
Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Acquisition and Disclosure of Communications Data: Code of Practice) Order 2015 — House of Lords, 2015-03-23
Topic: Other
Alan William John West (Labour, Centre-left): Surely those aspects that the Minister has just touched on, and about which he says he will write to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, have to be covered otherwise we have not got the coverage that we require.
Gaming Machine (Circumstances of Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015 — House of Lords, 2015-03-23
Topic: Domestic Commerce
Raymond Collins (Labour, Centre-left): That this House regrets that the Gaming Machine (Circumstances of Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015 do not appropriately address the problems of gambling addiction, and offer no significant protections for vulnerable people from getting into debt. (SI 2015/121) Relevant document: 27th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.