argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): I expect it does, but I shall need to get my mind around the point Of course, the statement made by the noble Baroness has to be right, but I come back to the fact that, in practice, we have not seen any miscarriages of justice against journalists or academics, or indeed any arrests. It is therefore incumbent upon us to ask why that is so, given the certainty with which some have predicted that exactly these consequences will flow from Clause 3. Could it be because the safeguards I have outlined were operating successfully? My suggestion is that this is the case. Furthermore, as the very same safeguards will continue to apply to Section 58 as amended by Clause 3, and as Clause 3 will neither narrow them in any way nor broaden the types of material caught by Section 58, I suggest that we can take considerable comfort from this As well as questioning the practical necessity for these amendments, I also have some concerns about the form of Amendments 15 and 16, which require the Secretary of State to issue guidance. To place such a requirement on the Home Secretary would be novel and arguably inappropriate—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, made the point extremely well. While the Home Office has issued guidance on matters such as the operation of police powers, it is not normal to do so on how to apply investigative and prosecutorial discretion in the context of a specific offence and where there are criminal consequences for individuals affected. If such guidance is to be issued, I therefore question whether this is properly a matter for the Home Secretary. This concern could, of course, be remedied by placing the duty on someone else, such as the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, as I have sought to explain, we remain to be convinced that an amendment to Section 58 of this kind is needed Finally, it is worth noting that Section 58 falls within the statutory remit of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, and this will provide a further important safeguard for its operation as amended by the Bill. I am aware that the former independent reviewer, Max Hill QC, does not agree with every aspect of the Government’s approach to Clause 3. He is, of course, an extremely eminent person whose views should be taken into account. But I would point out that successive independent reviewers have never raised a concern that Section 58 in its current form is having a chilling effect, or is otherwise not being used appropriately, despite its application, as I have said, to the bulk of journalistic and academic research into Section 58 material for much of the period it has been in force I hope that I have been able clearly to set out the Government’s position on these matters, and to persuade the noble Lord opposite to withdraw his well-intentioned but, in my view, unnecessary amendment.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I recognise the noble Baroness’s point. I understand that that provision went into the Bill when the three clicks provision came out. It was intended to provide a measure of reassurance in substitution for the three clicks idea that someone who acted in complete ignorance would not be caught. Frankly, one can argue it both ways—to leave it in the Bill or to take it out—but, on balance, we felt that it was right to put it in the Bill for that added measure of reassurance.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Edward Garnier (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I briefly return to our discussion to Amendment 17, moved so well by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. He made no claims of infallibility. When we are discussing this sort of subject, he probably comes the closest in this Chamber to infallibility, at least for the moment. I understand his reasons for moving the amendment; I can see that the reasonable excuse provision in the Bill he seeks to amend is somewhat vague. None the less, I want to ask one or two questions relating to the amendment I can accept that the genesis of at least some of the new provision comes from other countries’ and jurisdictions’ legislation; the noble Lord mentioned Australia in particular. A few things about the amendment trouble me slightly. I can see that proposed new paragraphs (a) to (e) provide a reason for making a visit to the designated area, but I am a little troubled by the fact that proposed new paragraph (f) states simply that, "visiting a dependent family member", may provide a reasonable excuse. The reason for the visit to the dependent family member needs to be explored fully. The amendment could lead us into difficulty. The purpose of the visit may be to see a bed-ridden grandparent, but it may be to see a rather ill-motivated teenager with terrorist sympathies. As long as that is not made clear, the problem I see in proposed new paragraph (f) remains To some extent, although not as greatly, I am troubled by proposed new paragraph (c), which gives the reason of, "satisfying an obligation to appear before a court or other body exercising judicial power" I can see that in an organised state with an organised court system, complying with an obligation to appear in court to give evidence, or whatever it may be, provides one with a reasonable excuse. However, going to a designated area suggests that there may not be such an organised system there. Although one may be under some obligation to appear before it, I hesitate to suggest that in all circumstances one is likely to find in a designated area a recognisable court or other body exercising judicial power in a way that we would find acceptable in this country and this jurisdiction Perhaps these are quibbles. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, expressly stated that he did not claim his amendment to be perfect. I understand where the amendment comes from and where it intends to go. I simply ask my noble friend on the Front Bench not to dismiss the amendment out of hand but perhaps to go away and rewrite it in such a way that it would be acceptable as a government amendment that would pass muster in both this House and the other place.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Edward Faulks (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I accept entirely that it is better, if at all possible, to clarify what constitutes not so much a defence but in which circumstances there will not be an offence, which I think is the way Amendment 17 is framed. If I understand it correctly, the answer to most of the objections lies in the word "solely" because, of course, if there is evidence of mixed reasons for someone being in an area, these provisions would not have a proper ambit at all. However, I share the reservations of my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier about visiting a dependent family member I want to raise a more general point about what Clause 4 intends to do. It is concerned with the designated area and the Government are not concerned primarily about protecting people visiting the area and ensuring their safety. Of course, journalists and those working for humanitarian purposes risk their own safety very considerably by going into such areas. The Government are concerned—perhaps my noble friend the Minister will confirm this—to prevent the risk of terrorism, as the Bill is headed. When looking at the risk of terrorism, the Explanatory Notes state: "Such a risk may arise, in particular, if a conflict in a foreign country, potentially involving a proscribed terrorist organisation, acted as a draw to UK nationals or residents to travel to that country to take part in the conflict or otherwise support those engaged in the conflict" In other words, we want to stop people fighting against the United Kingdom. That, I suggest, is what this is really about, although my noble friend may disabuse me of that. If so, this is quite a convoluted way of achieving the aim of preventing an individual or individuals assisting or fighting against the United Kingdom. I shall raise this point again on Wednesday under my own amendment concerning the possible introduction of the offence of treason, because that is what it would be. Although this is a useful provision and I can see what it is driving at, I respectfully wonder whether it is really the answer to the evil it is aimed at in this case.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. "Prove" is used in some six other sections of the 2000 Act, including Sections 57, 58 and 58A, so it is not inconsistent with the generality. However, as the noble and learned Lord has picked this out, I can do no other than to take the point very seriously, and I undertake to do so. If he will suspend his scepticism for a moment, I want to make the point that, in addition to creating an inconsistency between the designated area offence and others with a similar reasonable excuse defence, this would also unsettle a well-established legal position with which the courts and prosecutors are very familiar, and on which there is clear case law I very much hope that, on this basis, the noble Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment, subject to the undertaking that I have just given.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, if I misspoke or misread, I apologise. I was seeking to say that, as long as a defendant puts forward sufficient evidence to reasonably support whatever suggestion he is making—that he has a reasonable excuse—then the burden of proof shifts to the prosecution to disprove that to the criminal standard.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Government Operations
John Attlee (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, the power to designate an area is a significant power, as pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. However, I think it is a desirable power, provided that we amend the Bill slightly in the way we have discussed. I am not clear why anyone would want to go to a designated area other than for any of the purposes we have outlined in Amendment 17.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-10-29
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, it is probably best if I write to the noble Baroness in response to her specific questions. The broad answer is that we have thought of the practicalities. As regards informing people who are already in the designated area that it has been designated and that they therefore have 28 days to leave, there would be FCO travel advice that would almost certainly have pre-existed the designation. The regulations would be given significant publicity, including as part of the requested debate of the designation regulations. There would be a notice on the government website and we would consider other methods of publicity depending on the area being designated On the question of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, about innocent people who have already been caught up in events and the situation within a designated area, the reasonable excuse defence would kick in. As we said in our earlier debates, where it is perfectly obvious that someone is in a designated area for an innocent reason, it is almost unthinkable that the authorities would spend time trying to make a case against them. Their reasonable excuse would be advanced and the circumstances of the case, if they are innocent, would be obvious from the outset. As I have said, we have had the reasonable excuse defence in place for 18 years and, as far as I am aware, there have been no instances of innocent people being arrested or convicted That is as far as I can go at the moment, although I am conscious that I have not completely covered the issues raised. However, I will write and copy my letter to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Law and Crime
Michael Ancram (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister will know, the committee which I have the honour to serve on behalf of this House along with the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, produced a report 10 days ago on the lessons to be learned from terrorism incidents last year. One of the points that we made was that in most of, if not all, those incidents, the perpetrators had had access to the type of extreme material covered by this Bill and clause. We therefore support the way in which the Bill is being amended and developed today, because it provides another safeguard against one area where radicalisation can take place leading to terrorism incidents in due course. That is the position of my committee—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, would accept that Can we have a definition of "academic"? I presume that it is not limited just to professional academics, because that would be very restrictive. There is a lot to be said for learning lessons from terrorism incidents, with those doing that type of work, including the committee of which I am a member, having access in order to see what type of material is leading to the radicalisation taking place. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me that "academic" would cover that area My other point relates to "journalist". I may be behind the times and not know how it is defined in law, but "journalist" seems a very broad definition. There are professional journalists—I quite accept that this amendment should cover them—but there are in my experience other journalists, some of whom call themselves bloggers and others who call themselves contributors to particular types of publications. It might not be in the interests of security that those people have access to such material. Can the Minister respond to those two points?
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Law and Crime
John Attlee (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I thank the Minister for tabling the amendment. It is hard to think of any reason other than journalism or academic research, but it is good that the legislation as it will be drafted allows for that possibility. As for my noble friend’s point about journalism, it has never been accurately defined. Other terrorism legislation refers to journalism, but the drafting of my noble friend’s amendment makes it quite clear that it has to be journalistic work.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Law and Crime
Frederick Richard Penn Curzon (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I was not as precise as I should have been. The words after, "(but are not limited to) those in which", will become paragraph (a). So it will read, "(but are not limited to) those in which (a) at the time of the person’s action or possession, the person did not know", et cetera. Paragraph (b) will follow after line 44. I hope that that clarifies the point My noble friend Lord Lothian asked a series of very reasonable questions about the meaning of the words "journalist" and "academic". The distinction between journalism that constitutes a reasonable excuse and that which does not, for the purpose of this offence, will inevitably be highly fact-specific. As several noble Lords commented in earlier debates on the Bill, it is just not possible to provide in advance an exhaustive definition of a journalist or of a legitimate journalist. This is something that we are clear needs to be determined by a jury in particular cases on the basis of all the evidence. We have made it clear that our amendment adds an indicative list of categories of reasonable excuse and does not provide either an exhaustive list or an absolute exemption. It is important to remember that juries will retain their existing discretion to decide whether a particular excuse is reasonable on a case-by-case basis. The same logic would apply to the meaning of the word "academic". The category of person that my noble friend described might or might not be considered by a jury to be an academic: it would depend on the facts of the case. The jury might consider that there was still a reasonable excuse for a particular individual. I hope that that is helpful.
Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
John Attlee (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for these amendments, and in particular for his response to my amendments moved in Committee on journalism. When we are trying to convince people like President Erdoğan of Turkey not to persecute his journalists, it would be a complete disaster if we accidentally arrested a legitimate journalist in the UK I have worked overseas on international aid—in theatres unlikely to have been designated—but I think the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, has slightly misinterpreted the Minister’s amendment. New Clause 3B(a) excludes providing aid "of a humanitarian nature", so his concerns are absolutely met by the Minister. I believe the Minister has the balance right, both in principle and in the drafting of his amendment.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
Michael Howard (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, in the context of the reference in the Statement to the need for an orderly exit from the European Union, can my noble friend help me on the following point? We know that the UK Government are making preparations for the possibility—some might say the probability—of a no-deal Brexit. The European Union is making similar preparations. Are those preparations being co-ordinated in any way? If not, why not?
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): We remain committed to the deal that we have negotiated with the EU and believe that it is the best deal, but my noble friend is absolutely right: both we and the EU are preparing for no deal. There have been many conversations, both bilaterally and with the EU, about preparations. We are taking forward our plans, as are they, but certainly conversations have been had.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank the noble Lord. He is right that there was agreement that reform is needed to improve the WTO’s functioning. A step forward was that progress on this will be reviewed at the next G20 summit. The G20 has given the WTO a strong mandate for reform and we now want to see everyone working together. I can certainly assure him that our priorities for WTO reform include ensuring the continued effectiveness of the dispute settlement mechanism, including the role of the appellate board. We want to enhance transparency in the system to improve trust and to enhance the rules by ensuring clear disciplines on distortive subsidies and state-owned enterprises. We will be taking these forward strongly. He asked about migration. I can say that we will indeed be at the upcoming intergovernmental launch of the global compact. We support this compact, both in terms of international co-operation and as a framework to help us deliver our commitments under the sustainable development goals.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Foreign Trade
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): Obviously, we will have discussions with different countries and work out trade deals that work best for both parties, but we have been very clear that we will not be lowering our standards in a whole array of areas, because we have been world leaders in setting them and we want to remain so.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
David Arthur Russell Howell (Conservative, Centre-right): Does my noble friend agree that this summit and the Commons Statement are remarkably forward looking—although one would not guess it from some of the curmudgeonly responses we have heard? Does it not mention both future trade deals under an independent trade policy, fundamental changes in the nature of trade, which do not seem to have reached a number of people talking about the subject, new areas of technology, women’s economic empowerment and, as we have already mentioned, the benefit of orderly exit from the EU? Should not excitable Brexiteers, and indeed the opposition parties, reflect a little on all that is really happening and important in the world before they try to destroy the Prime Minister’s perfectly sensible compromise?
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank my noble friend. As I mentioned in my answer to the noble Baroness, a communiqué was adopted by consensus at this G20, which showed the constructive nature of the meeting. Of course, the G20 is vital to international economic co-operation. It brings together countries that collectively constitute 85% of gross world product and two-thirds of the world’s population, so it is essential that we continue to work collaboratively together to tackle some of the global issues that we all face.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Foreign Trade
James Bridges (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I very much welcome the Statement and in particular the focus on future trade arrangements. However, before we get carried away with the future, will my noble friend take a moment to update the House on the progress that the Government have made on grand- fathering over existing EU/non-EU trade agreements? It is imperative that this is done before we leave. Furthermore, how are we doing with grandfathering over the 750—at the last count—trade-related agreements with 168 countries that are also important to keep trade flowing?
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: International Affairs
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): I think we need to engage with people in order to change their opinion and to put our ideas over forcefully. I do not think that avoiding difficult discussions is a particularly good way forward. As I said, the Prime Minister raised the issue of Yemen with the Crown Prince. There is a window of opportunity now, through the talks that we hope will start in the next few days in Stockholm, where we can bring the parties together. We want them to work in good faith in order to cease hostilities. As I said, we have committed £570 million since the conflict began in 2015. We are the fifth-largest donor of humanitarian assistance and we are working with our international partners to try to bring this conflict to an end—but I think that robust conversations are needed in order to make sure that these points are forcefully put across.
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Foreign Trade
Mark Schreiber (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, although we can indeed strike new trade deals when we leave the EU on 31 March, is not the bitter truth that they remain no-deals until they can be implemented, and that they will not be able to be implemented until the implementation period ends and we have not joined the backstop?
G20 Summit — House of Lords, 2018-12-03
Topic: Foreign Trade
Natalie Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): As I have said, during the implementation period we will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals, and we will be able to bring these into effect after the implementation period. If the backstop were ever to come into effect—which of course no one on either side wants—we would be able to enact those aspects of trade agreements that do not affect the functioning of the backstop, such as services, investment, financial services and digital.