Conduct Committee — House of Lords, 2021-04-20
Topic: Law and Crime
George Foulkes (Labour, Centre-left): My Lords, I warmly congratulate and commend my noble friend Lady Donaghy on taking on the serious responsibility of moving the Motion on behalf of the committee and doing it so effectively. I totally regret that, from one quarter, there was implied criticism that she and the members of the committee somehow did not understand the relationships between client and barrister —or client and advocate, as this is still the United Kingdom By contrast, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, described in his very elegant introduction her long, varied and impressive experience, which I commend him for. It is a pity that someone else did not accept that. I have great respect for the noble and learned Lord and his work in this House. He and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope—with whom he is having a consultation at the moment—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, who are all speaking today, serve with me on the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee and do some tremendous work. They work hard and contribute a great deal from their legal experience—incidentally, they do it for nothing, which is even better However, I disagree fundamentally with his amendment. I hope that, after considering all the aspects of the issue and listening carefully to this debate —particularly the impressive speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who, if I picked up correctly, was chair of the Bar conduct committee so must know a thing or two—he will withdraw his amendment I have some sympathy with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and was swithering about supporting it if he pushes it to a vote. However, on reflection, I think it would be better—this is the value of this debate, by the way, to listen to what people are saying—to raise it with the committee directly rather than pushing the amendment today, which I fear might not get through anyway. I think I saw my noble friend Lady Donaghy nodding earlier, when the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, was speaking, to indicate that she would accept his suggestion that the committee further examine this This report is a follow-up to the report of the committee which was unanimously approved by the House on 2 December, so it is not sudden or unexpected. That report was based on recommendations of the Intelligence and Security Committee, which spent a long time looking at the malign influence of Russia on our democracy. Having served on the ISC for a number of years, I know how very carefully it considers its recommendations. They are based on well-informed evidence, particularly from our very good intelligence agencies, and should not be cast aside lightly We should not be looking to ignore the action proposed by the Conduct Committee in any way at any time. But at this current time, as others have said, it would be particularly unwise to reject it for the following two reasons. First, with the Greensill scandal, the reputation of parliamentarians has sunk, sadly, to a new low. The public are rightly appalled at politicians using their positions for preferential treatment to try to amass—not earn— fortunes. The NHS procurement preference had already tarnished reputations, but now, with the involvement of a former Prime Minister, we have reached a nadir. Secondly, the reputation of this House and its very existence is coming under threat from different quarters, some surprising. I believe that a Second Chamber is vital for our democracy. Those who look at what is happening in Holyrood, where they do not have a revising chamber, will come down on that side as well. I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, agrees with me on that. While I support reform of this Chamber, I recognise that our current membership provides a wide range of experience. However, there remains a challenge to our existence from these different quarters. The challenge is whether we have real democratic accountability, and we should be careful not to provide critics with extra ammunition We are also facing increased threats and challenges from Russia and other countries. In the case of Russia, we have the massing of forces on the border with Ukraine to add to the arrest of Alexei Navalny, the Skripal poisoning and many other outrages. When our Government and this Parliament are considering what actions to take in response, whether Magnitsky sanctions or any other measures, we need to be absolutely sure that all Members are taking their decisions in the interests solely of the people of the UK, influenced in no way by outside factors. Our actions need not only to be beyond reproach but to be seen as beyond reproach The recommendations have been carefully considered by the Conduct Committee, which has relevant experience and knowledge that we do not all necessarily have. The recommendations have the support of all four independent Members, who have been brought on to that committee for their experience, and they have the support of the three major party representatives on it. They have gone out of their way to consider carefully the representations from the bodies representing lawyers and the substantial advocacy of the Members of this House with vested interests, which we have found again today. Rightly, they conclude, as my noble friend Lord Adonis said, that the public interest must come first. Some might reasonably argue, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, does, that the committee has gone too far to accommodate the interests of the lawyers, including a period of grace until the end of the year. Although, as we heard from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that raises particular problems We each must consider how, and particularly why, we are Members of the Lords. Is it to contribute to the good governance of our country by reviewing and revising legislation and challenging the Government—the work of a legislator—or is it to make a fortune? I have no doubt what my purpose here is None of us is obliged to continue as active Members if we instead want to make money by advising a foreign Government without registering that interest. We are not saying that Members cannot continue to do this, but they would have to register that interest. We are not saying that work should not be undertaken, just that it should be registered and the record publicly available. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that clients can get confidential advice from barristers who are not Lords. Although it seems that most of the barristers around seem to be here today, there are an awful lot remaining who are not Members of this House. The options of leave of absence and retirement are now available—people in other professions take leave of absence if they feel there is a conflict of interest. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier and the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, will consider their amendments and the House will adopt this report unanimously. That will send a clear, positive message to the public that this House takes its responsibility seriously.