argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Mixed Topics
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): I will certainly give an undertaking to go away and reflect on the point that the noble Lord makes. I understand what he is saying. I am conscious that we met with Kalayaan on many occasions in the course of the Modern Slavery Act. It does very valuable work on this and its position is very clear regarding what it wishes to do. More particularly, I was hoping we could outline in a bit more detail than perhaps is possible at this stage where the Government’s mind is on this, and genuinely enter into a discussion about the best way forward As to whether it would be appropriate that the authors of the report should be there, I hear very much what the noble Lord says. That may be useful, but he will understand that in the nature of the way that government works, I have, as it were, secured a certain amount of leeway from my colleagues in the course of responding to your Lordships’ concerns, and it would be courteous of me to go back to them and seek their approval for that suggestion. I shall give an undertaking to do just that.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): Were it the case that we did not accept that there was any correlation with the visa tie, we would of course not have made the change that we did in the Modern Slavery Act to say that when people enter the national referral mechanism, and there are reasonable and conclusive grounds, they will have the ability to change employers. I do not think it is possible to draw from that that it is something we are not prepared to move on; we have already moved some way on that in previous legislation.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Mixed Topics
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): The anti-slavery commissioner, Kevin Hyland, is independent, and thoroughly and robustly defends his independence. I would simply quote a remark that he made: he felt that a system, which may be included as part of James Ewins’s recommendations, of checks and periodic meetings to ensure that people were aware of their rights and to check on their safety may have more effect in providing a safeguard of the position.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Thomas Ashton (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, this is an emotive issue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, these are not new arguments. In fact, I think they were had on the last Immigration Act and possibly in immigration Bills before that. Of course, it is an emotive issue and everyone has sympathy with the plight of some of the people whom we are talking about. It is a difficult line to draw and we have to draw a balance I have listened carefully to the arguments in favour of allowing permission to work where an asylum claim is still outstanding after six months, removing the caveat that any delay must not be of the asylum seeker’s own making, and lifting restrictions on the types of employment available. The amendments would radically change existing permission-to-work arrangements for asylum seekers and the Government are not convinced that that is sensible. As a general rule, the Government believe that it is not appropriate to allow asylum seekers to work. It is important that we protect the resident labour market for those lawfully present in the UK.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Other
Thomas Ashton (Conservative, Centre-right): I take the point from the noble Lord, and that is why it would be better if our response was written down once we had had a chance to think about it carefully and get our definitions right. I will circulate the response and put a copy in the Library of the House so that voluntary organisations know where they are.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Charles Cathcart (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I support the amendment about delaying the rollout of the pilot scheme. This seems to focus on the likelihood of landlords potentially asking all those with foreign names or accents for evidence of their right to rent. I thought that the whole point of a pilot scheme was to ensure that what was being put forward was actually working as intended. However, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants found that two-thirds of landlords had not fully understood the code of practice on preventing illegal immigration or indeed the code of practice on avoiding discrimination, and that 50% of those who had been refused a tenancy felt discriminated against, while 40% of tenants in the pilot area had not been asked for any identity documents. That is hardly a resounding success for the pilot scheme, yet the Government want to roll out this contentious scheme across the country next month. That cannot be the right answer.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
John Gummer (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I find myself in a very difficult position. I have to say to my noble friend that there are three elements to this aspect of the Bill, which the amendments address, which seem to me incomprehensible. The first is that, if one is running a private business and is going to make a major change in the way it is run, one has a pilot scheme that one evaluates—preferably independently—and then decides whether or not it has worked. I do not understand how a Conservative Government who believe in private enterprise have not learned this from the private sector. It seems to me that you do not behave like this. You have a pilot scheme, you have it independently assessed, you announce the results and then you discuss what those answers mean. So I have a problem of comprehension to start with. It is an important problem, because the second difficulty I have is that I find it pretty unacceptable in this country that people should have to prove that they are suitable for renting a flat before they are allowed to do so. I do not find that very attractive. I am one of those who have always believed in identity cards, which I think would be convenient for everyone. But this Government do not believe in identity cards and have tried to argue all the time that they are not necessary. However, we are now creating a sector, a section of the community, which in fact has to have an identity card. I object in principle to the concept that some should have it and others should not Central to that is the issue that, however one likes to dress it up, it is likely that landlords will be more suspicious of people of an ethnic minority or with a foreign accent than they will be of those who speak correct English with the crystal accents heard in this House. I do not think that many of us who have spoken today, even those with self-confessed "odd" surnames, would be refused rented accommodation, because landlords would not expect us to be unable to prove our suitability for that flat.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): I will of course come to that. I realise that there are some very detailed questions and I am certainly not skipping past them, but I wanted to put on record the Government’s response to the amendments before turning to the matters raised in the debate There are some interesting points here, the first of which is that, while this scheme has been rolled out into the private sector, the requirement to prove identity has been in operation in the social sector. It was introduced by the Labour Government in the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. It provides a duty on local authorities to check that those entering social tenancies have a right to be in the UK. Indeed, it goes further and places a duty on local authorities to notify the Home Office where they come across people who do not have a right to be in the UK. What is new is that that requirement is being applied to the private sector On the criticism of the independence of the office of evaluation—a point made by my noble friend Lord Deben and a number of noble Lords—the Home Office Science evaluation had scrutiny of the consultative panel co-chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Best. It might be helpful for the Committee to have on record the members of the landlords consultative panel, co-chaired by James Brokenshire and the noble Lord, Lord Best. The representatives included: the Association of Residential Letting Agents; the UK Association of Letting Agents; the Residential Landlords Association; the National Landlords Association; the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors; the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; the Department for Communities and Local Government; the Equality and Human Rights Commission; the boroughs of Sandwell, Dudley and Walsall; the National Approved Letting Scheme; Birmingham and Wolverhampton city councils; Universities UK; and Crisis.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Other
John Gummer (Conservative, Centre-right): I did not criticise this as not being an independent group. My point was that the work should go on for longer before it is assessed, perhaps by the same group. It is not a question of complaining about the independence of the group; I fear that there has not been sufficient time to be able to draw the kind of conclusions which have been drawn. I think that is precisely what the noble Lord, Lord Best, indicated—that it would have been better to have had a longer period. All I was suggesting was that if you had a longer period and then had the independent assessment that would be better, given what a serious matter this is.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Charles Cathcart (Conservative, Centre-right): I have a reservation. The Minister said that this is being done at the social housing level. However, it is relatively easy to get the message across to that sector because you just write to all the councils and tell them what it is. You cannot write to all the landlords because nobody knows who all the landlords are. There is no national register of landlords. I believe that is where the confusion has arisen in the pilot area, where 65% of landlords—two-thirds—do not understand the code of practice on preventing illegal immigration or the code of practice on avoiding discrimination. The message has not got to the landlords. When the Government roll this out, I wonder how the Minister proposes to get the message out to all landlords right across the country.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): I am very happy to take that further. First, it is worth pointing out that landlords already undertake a number of checks. It is standard for them to check people’s identity to determine whether they are who they say they are. They take up credit references. It is standard to take up references from previous landlords to determine whether the tenants are suitable people. They require proof of employment. Therefore, a number of checks are already required. Establishing that somebody has a right to be in the UK and has the appropriate documents should be done already under best practice. However, I shall address some of the practical points about how we communicate this change I return to the point about the robustness of the research because that was raised by a number of noble Lords. A wide range of research tools have been used, including 17 online surveys with 539 responses. They were just part of the exercise. There were 12 focus groups and 36 one-to-one interviews. In addition, a total of 332 mystery shopping encounters were completed. The evaluation has been overseen by the consultative panel to which I referred. The Home Office has not made claims about how representative the tenants’ survey was as it was administered via mailing lists and web links, and therefore we do not hold detailed responses on that. Research was carried out with landlords’ letting agents. The landlords’ survey had 137 completed responses, 114 of which related to landlords with properties in the phase one area. The tenants’ survey had 70 completed responses, 68 of which related to tenants in the phase one area. As regards the robustness of the research, multiple methodologies were used to understand the impact of the scheme in its first six months between 1 December 2014 and 31 May 2015. It reached multiple stakeholder groups—I know that is the concern of my noble friend Lord Cathcart—of landlords, letting agents, housing associations and other voluntary and community sector organisations, including local authorities. I can also provide further details about the research if that would be helpful.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
John Gummer (Conservative, Centre-right): Can I come back to single rooms that are let in a house? I have said to the Minister that I am perfectly happy to go along with him if I could know that we have looked at this particular issue. As far as I understand, we have not got very much evidence about the interaction between this legislation and people letting rooms in their own house. Do we know how many people have been interviewed on this? Do we know that it does not have the effect that I fear it has? If he can show that to me I will withdraw entirely but I just want to know and I am not sure that the evidence is there.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): That is an important point. Students are of course exempt because their right to be in the UK will have been checked by their university in granting them accommodation. The fact that they are exempt is because those checks are happening, and the social sector is exempt because the checks are happening there. All we want is for those checks to happen in the private sector as well.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): In that respect I might suggest that the partial solution which we came across for our last debate, which was on overseas domestic workers, was to look at organising a meeting in between Committee and Report. However, it would probably be more useful for the House to have the noble Lord, Lord Best, at such a meeting if he were willing to meet with colleagues on that basis. We would certainly be happy to facilitate one to explain more about the process, but we have tried to be as transparent as possible about this. It has been a long trial and there has been a thorough evaluation. It will also continue to be under review because this is not the completion of the process; we are simply talking about moving to the next stage of rollout, which is to England. There will be further opportunities for evaluation thereafter. I hope that, with those suggestions, I might have prevailed upon the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment at this stage.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Charles Cathcart (Conservative, Centre-right): No, I am not aware of that I understand that previously the Government have said that they want common sense to prevail. However, landlords, fearful of the potential consequences of getting something wrong, need further assurances. A simple amendment to the Bill can rectify this and make it clear that landlords will not commit a criminal offence where they have done everything possible to verify the status of the tenant and are in the process of evicting a tenant whom they have been notified does not have the right to rent within the 28-day window that the Bill permits It is important to note that while a prosecution might not be taken out against a landlord seeking to evict a tenant without the right to rent, simply deeming him to have committed a criminal offence can cause extensive difficulties, especially with mortgage lenders and insurers. The fact that no prosecution has been taken does not mean that the landlord has not committed an offence. Most contracts relating to property contain a prohibition on using the property unlawfully While an amendment would be the clearest way of addressing this issue, in addition, clear guidance should be issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions outlining: first, that prosecutions will not take place where a landlord who has been informed that their tenant does not have the right to rent has done everything possible to check the status of that tenant and is within the 28-day eviction period; secondly, that landlords will not be prosecuted where they have fallen victim to forged documents from a prospective tenant that they could not reasonably have been expected to recognise as false; thirdly, that landlords will not be prosecuted where they were unable to receive a letter from the Secretary of State notifying them that the tenant did not have a right to rent due to hospitalisation or other reasonable measure that might prevent them reading and acting on a notice; and fourthly, how he intends to proceed with the Government’s commitment that landlords will not be prosecuted for a first offence. This amendment is supported by the Residential Landlords Association, which looks after the interests of more than 40,000 landlords, and by the Association of Residential Letting Agents. Its managing director, David Cox, commented: "It would be unjust and inequitable for a landlord to be in breach of the law through no fault of their own, irrespective of whether the Government has outlined it will not prosecute in such circumstances. Being in breach of legislation will cause landlords great concern, and therefore, we request these technical amendments be incorporated into the Bill to ensure the spirit of the legislation is reflected in the wording of the Bill" I could not have put it better myself.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Immigration
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 153 in my name and respond to the amendments spoken to by noble Lords. Government Amendment 153 provides powers for the Secretary of State to prescribe the form of the notice that the landlord must serve in relation to the eviction powers in new Section 33D, and the manner in which it is served. This amendment provides clarity and consistency to landlords, tenants and High Court enforcement officers about the circumstances in which High Court enforcement officers will be permitted to enforce a notice. The Secretary of State may prescribe the form or forms to be used by order, subject to the negative procedure I understand the concern that has been expressed thoughtfully and passionately, particularly by my noble friends Lord Howard of Rising and Lord Cathcart, that reputable landlords who have made a mistake or been deceived would be committing an offence immediately when they receive a notice from the Home Office that a tenant is disqualified from renting. However, I reassure them that the focus of these measures is on the minority of rogue landlords who deliberately flout the law. They are the intended target of the legislation, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, said in his excellent summary on the previous amendment. They are not intended to be used against reputable landlords who may have made a genuine mistake. In fact, if we look at the Bill in its present form, new Section 33A(3) says that the condition for an offence to be committed, "is that the landlord knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the premises are occupied by an adult who is disqualified as a result of their immigration status" That threshold of proof, "knows or has reasonable cause to believe", is very high The offences in the Bill are to do with landlords and agents knowingly renting to illegal migrants or doing so when they have reasonable cause to believe that they are doing so. They are not strictly about a failure to evict. While a desire to safeguard the position of responsible landlords is understandable, it would not be right to afford a grace period of 28 days to the worst offenders, such as the one that would result from Amendment 149. Such landlords deliberately rent to and may also exploit illegal migrants. Likewise, it would be difficult to be certain in any particular case what would constitute "proceeding diligently" for the purposes of Amendment 150. I am concerned that this would also provide rogue landlords with a way to avoid prosecution Amendment 148A is unnecessary because, under the right-to-rent scheme introduced by the Immigration Act 2014, the landlord should perform document checks to a reasonable standard. Should they do so, they will not be liable to a civil penalty, nor will they be subject to prosecution under this legislation unless they are explicitly notified or become aware when they undertake subsequent checks that an occupant is an illegal migrant.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): I accept that, and the noble Lord is making a genuine point. Certainly that is the intent, as we have said, behind the legislation. If evidence comes to light during the passage of this legislation through this House that that may not be the case, clearly the Government will want to take note of that, because it is explicitly not the intent to catch the vast majority of genuine landlords. There are a small number of rogue landlords.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Charles Cathcart (Conservative, Centre-right): I am sorry to interrupt again. I understand the issue about rogue landlords, and of course one wants to catch them and not the good landlords. Will the Minister say whether he will consider my idea of clear guidance from the Director of Public Prosecutions? To that effect, I listed four things that he might consider.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Greville Patrick Charles Howard (Conservative, Centre-right): I very much welcome the chance to meet my noble friend to discuss this. I point out, with regard to the guidance—the Explanatory Notes—my noble friend keeps talking about landlords doing the checks, but it specifically says in the guidance to the Bill that it, "applies where any adult is occupying the premises, regardless of whether the adult is a tenant under or is named in the agreement" We are not saying that there is a problem where people have been able to do checks, but that where somebody comes in, the guidance specifically says that those people have to be monitored—and I do not know how my noble friend expects landlords to monitor them. We are not a police force. That is a really important point. The other thing is that whatever anybody says—the noble Lord or my noble friend Lord Best—I cannot think of any legislation that is not abused sooner or later by somebody.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Housing
Michael Bates (Conservative, Centre-right): We need to avoid creating an unintentional loophole that effectively says, "We’ll ask no questions and we won’t contravene the proposals in this legislation". That cannot be right. I would imagine that most landlords would want to know who was occupying their property. In the event that a property is the subject of subletting agreement, at that point there would of course be a liability to carry out the background checks, which would fall to the people who have made the decision to sublet. However, making a general exemption in those circumstances could create an unwelcome loophole.
Immigration Bill — House of Lords, 2016-01-20
Topic: Other
Greville Patrick Charles Howard (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank the noble Lord for his comments and for agreeing to a meeting; that is very gracious of him, and I look forward to that. Depending on it, I may wish to return to this subject, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.