Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
David John Maclean (Conservative, Centre-right): My apologies, Lord Deputy Chairman; I did not realise you would be calling the noble Earl, Lord Caithness I am grateful to all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have spoken—those who have supported me, those who are sitting on the fence and those who are opposed. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that if he goes further and looks at the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel guidelines in detail, he will find that there is an instruction there to government departments to write in simple language, and what I am suggesting here follows that OPC instruction The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, made an important contribution that swayed a number of noble Lords. I looked at changing the word "nature" at the start of Clause 1 but then opted to change it in Clause 1(3). I was in two minds about that but then I thought that I wanted the debate on principle, so we should have it early on in the Bill. I accept what he said about the list in Clause 1(3) containing more specific examples of nature. He said that "biodiversity" was the right word to be used in the Bill but I am suggesting, and I have said so all along, that we can define "nature" to be the right word in the Bill and we can make it as specific or general as we wish I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Cormack for his attempt at a definition, "nature in all its diversity". I am not sure it is right but he is simply making the point that it is possible to define this My noble friend Lord Caithness said that he was back to sitting on the fence. I am too; I have a leg on either side of it. I am not suggesting that we have "nature" only or "biodiversity" only; I am suggesting that in some parts of the Bill, where it is safe and sensible to do so, we have "nature" and in other bits we have "biodiversity" My noble friend the Minister has already pointed out to my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering that I was not proposing to change our international conventions, not even the one that I negotiated myself. As a new Minister I was sent to Rio in 1992 with strict instructions: "You’ll be there for 16 days, Mr Maclean MP. You will not agree to anything until John Major comes out and signs up for everything that you’ve got to resist." I had to sign, or was party to negotiating, the first Convention on Biological Diversity I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, that there is no need for confusion. It depends on how we define this, and I say to her that the word "nature" would strengthen the Bill I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Trenchard for his strong support. If Dasgupta sees the terms as interchangeable, we should change "biodiversity" in the Bill wherever possible. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge. He also said that we should make things simple. The next group of amendments but one is about connecting people with nature. The word "nature" does that but "biodiversity" does not The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, says that the Government need to define biodiversity. If the Government cannot define biodiversity in the Bill, how are the public to understand or relate to it? The Government are capable of defining "natural environment" in the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, quoted dictionary definitions. What does that dictionary say about "natural environment"? The phrase "natural environment" is not defined in the Bill according to the Oxford English Dictionary; it is defined in a way that the Government have decided. If the Government can define "natural environment", they can define "nature" My noble friend the Minister said that "nature" can be a more expansive term. It can, and if it is not defined it will be much more expansive. The phrase "natural environment" could be a highly expansive term—indeed, some of us have suggestions to expand it a bit more—but the Government have defined it in the Bill and, if you can define "natural environment", you can define "nature" As far as "biodiversity net gain" is concerned, my noble friend picked one example which might confuse business and industry, and developers may worry that "nature net gain" is not the same as "biodiversity net gain". If that is the case and we cannot explain it, let us not change that bit. I have resiled from my initial position when I wrote to my noble friend two weeks ago that we can change every word. I know that we cannot; it would not be sensible. It could cause legal problems and confusion. Let us not try to change the word where it is not sensible to do so but change it everywhere else My noble friend seemed to conclude by saying, "Let’s use biodiversity in the Bill, but out there we will be talking about nature; it’s how we relate to it and how we deliver it". It seems a bit odd to say, "Well, let’s just keep this among ourselves. We experts who know all about it and we boffins will use biodiversity in the Bill, but we won’t use it out there among the public. For that, we will use ‘nature’" I think there is still some merit in what I say, although it has not commanded the majority support of the noble Lords who have spoken today. I would like my noble friend to consider with me whether we can change the word in some instances where it is safe to do so. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.