argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) on bringing forward such an important Bill at such an important time. There is so much pent-up demand in both Houses of Parliament for this Bill to be delivered, and I know that the Home Office is incredibly enthusiastic about it, so it is timely that we will get it done. Unfortunately, in the previous Parliament I tried and failed, and for me it is a lesson about instability in Parliament having an impact on people’s lives and about the ability to deliver key services. It is really important at this stage to get this Bill delivered. As has been highlighted, there have been reports in both Houses, which I think indicates not only the level of support for the Bill, but the critical necessity of doing so at this stage. In 2011, 2013 and 2016, the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee recommended that the regulator should receive statutory powers to enforce compliance with quality standards. In Sir Brian Leveson’s review of the efficiency of criminal proceedings—that was in 2015—he repeated the call for statutory powers. In 2019, the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee, in a very extensive and authoritative report, called for such powers. The body of evidence building up indicates a signal failure within the system which now needs to be put right It is worth bearing in mind that there is a little bit of history before the dates that the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) highlighted, so I will touch on that briefly. In 2002, the Forensic Science Service stopped being a preferred supplier of forensic services to the police forces. In 2003, a Home Office review of the Forensic Science Service recommended that it become a Government-owned company, and in 2005 it became a Government-owned company in that sense. In 2008, the Forensic Science Regulator was established without the statutory provisions that are now so important. The Home Office also established the national forensics framework to allow police forces to purchase forensics from private suppliers and the FSS, using standard contracts with pre-agreed terms and conditions. Police forces therefore could choose not to purchase forensics through the framework but had to use the procedures for such services. Understandably, in 2010, with a whole series of concerns and problems, the coalition Government announced that they would shut down the FSS, citing in the decision its losses of £2 million a month. The need for reform was at that stage and is now abundantly clear; how the system is reformed is a different question.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Technology
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): I have been listening with interest as my hon. Friend has explained an ever-expanding list of areas, including data, big data and artificial intelligence. It seems to me that his vision for what may be within the ambit of the Bill is much more expansive than perhaps was my first assessment of what may be contrived in this Bill—certainly, as we were hearing from my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), within a budget of £100,000 going up to £400,000. Have I got the scale of what my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) is envisaging right, or is it more restrictive, perhaps closer to what the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) said in his opening remarks?
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Technology
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I think that point reflects on what the hon. Member for Bristol North West said about this being a starting point in terms of the regulator body. This also reflects upon the sphere of law and order and the justice system that it ought to be looking at and investigating. It is those two aspects together that overall will require significant resources, and to get more and increasingly specialist skills to look at artificial intelligence, cloud computing and those sorts of areas. There may not be those skills necessarily within the regulated service, but certainly there would be an expectation of commissioning people to come in to inform and enable the regulator to have that oversight position, perhaps, later on.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is making an extremely important point, and nowhere is it more pertinent than in the area of digital forensics, as he said, which is developing very fast. One of the obstacles that we have faced in the prosecution of rape investigations, for example, has been the confidence of victims to allow interrogation of their mobile phone data as part of that investigation. Improving the confidence of victims around both the codes of practice and the techniques that are used in those forensic opportunities, and then how that is presented in court, will be a key part of getting them over the line to prosecution, whereas at the moment we are often seeing resistance because of notions of intrusion into privacy that are overwhelming their desire for justice.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I agree with the concerns that my hon. Friend highlights. When the system looks in one way or another at a victim’s smart device, which has so many personal messages and so much personal information on it, the victim needs reassurance that it will be done in the right way and they ought to feel safe. I am cautious that that ought not to be an impediment to their seeking justice.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): I am cautious about trying to have a dialogue with the Minister through my hon. Friend while he makes his speech, but may I just add a counterpoint to his response to the Minister about the assurance that comes when "the system", as my hon. Friend called it, has access to data? If we provide a statutory underpinning to the powers that can be taken in the use of data for forensics, does that not provide a stronger basis for the state to intrude even further into the data requirements that law enforcement can pursue in pursuit of forensic evidence? Would that not be a cause of concern for many people?
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concerns, but I would be cautious about going down that route. Increasingly, the policing system as a whole reflects on the specialist skills required to do the work and within that system there is increasing recognition that the police need people who are perhaps badged as police but who would not fit into the traditional view of policing. Whether those people are employed and recruited through the policing system or for a private sector provider, ensuring the standards are equally high and equally well adhered to is key to this aspect of the work.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I, too, am anxious not to engage in ping-pong with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) through my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green). There are two issues in particular regarding digital forensics. One is the delay. Practices at the moment often mean that victims or others surrender their devices for many weeks, which has implications for them as well. In the end, it is through the regulator and statutory codes of practice that voice is given to democratic consent for the ambit in which the state can intrude into a private individual’s information to the extent that justice may be served. At the moment, that is broadly done at the discretion of the police. Possibly in the future it will be done by codes of practice, and as I said and as we said in our manifesto, we will look at a framework for the adoption of police technology and techniques in the future. Fundamentally, that has to come to this House for democratic consent and it is through these mechanisms that we give that permission.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank my hon. Friend for his message Let me finish this point about the future tech. We have not really touched on the internet of things, and that global connectivity of billions and billions of devices. That might have an impact on the way the police and other services investigate a crime I read a simple but odd thing about how electronic doorbells can play a part in crime. Apparently—I hope no one is listening to this—burglars can observe the data usage when a doorbell is rung and an internet connection is established with the owner, who may be at work or away. The fact that the data usage rockets up tells the burglar that the person has not come to the door and that they are observing what is going on from afar, and so are not there.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Technology
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will pick up the point that was made about public perception, because the regulator has a role in reassuring people that the system—all elements of the forensics science area—is up to standard. The public need that reassurance To some extent, that goes back to the "CSI" vision in that area. Before coming here, I worked in the mass spectrometry industry and on occasion worked in forensics laboratories. Having been there, I am confident that—not being a big fan of the show—there is a world of difference between the two. The laboratory environment is incredibly focused and serious. It has many of the standards and expectations that any other laboratory environment would expect to have, whether in industry or other sorts of research, because we cannot have scientists and others contaminating samples in the lab with DNA or other samples, for example We have to have a clean-room environment and incredibly well-controlled samples and other materials. We hear about the negativity of single-use plastics, but in the laboratory environment it is incredibly important that people use a vial once and not on a number of occasions, because that is how we get cross-contamination We have to have an understanding of the quality of the science and the resources it needs because of the sensitivity of instrumentation these days. I worked in the mass spec industry for approaching 20 years, and the technology was transformed from the beginning of that time to when I left. Having been here for five years, I would now feel, in a sense, technologically redundant. I have been completely left behind. It is not just the physical technology and the electronics; it is also the software. In terms of the laboratory experience, this touches on wider concerns about data handling and how we can control and protect the enormous quantities of data that laboratories generate. We must have confidence, from beginning to end, about how the samples are gained from the crime scene, how they are processed and transferred, and how they go through the laboratory system, after which reports are written and, ultimately, presented in court.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Julie Marson (Conservative, Centre-right): The whole question of confidence makes me think of rape victims, for example. The rate of conviction in this country and elsewhere for rape is shockingly low, and this question of confidence feeds into the very purpose of the Bill. The work of these laboratories is valuable, intense and professional. Does my hon. Friend agree that public knowledge about that would give victims the confidence to come forward and submit to intrusive examinations, because they know what will happen with their evidence? This is all about enforcing and reinforcing the justice system.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): I agree entirely; my hon. Friend makes an important point. This legislation, and our having this debate, is incredibly important in giving victims the confidence to come forward and know that they will be looked after and supported in the right way. There would be an ongoing duty and responsibility for the Forensic Science Regulator to work to raise standards in the system, so that people can recognise that I have not touched much on the digital side of a forensic science laboratory’s work. I am more familiar with mass spec, high-performance liquid chromatography and the other analytical techniques that can be used. I was a member of the Science and Technology Committee from 2015 to 2017, and we went on a visit to the Laboratory of the Government Chemist in Teddington. I had worked there a little bit beforehand, but it was fascinating to see the digital side of its work. I want to give a sense of the challenge ahead and the resources required The police and forensic scientists have to monitor, judge, analyse and access smartphones, smart watches, iPads, computers, desktops and many other devices. All those devices have different levels of software, different editions, newer versions and different operating systems. We need to have a compliant system within the digital sphere to ensure that that analysis can be done in a way that cannot then be challenged or undermined in the court system, and it can be shown that these standards have been adhered to and in no way have the digital services interfered with or corrupted the data being drawn from these devices.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Technology
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is outlining the expanding scope of the work that will be undertaken. I take the point from the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones): this is about the statutory underpinning. Nevertheless, does my hon. Friend think that all this work he refers to about digital watches and digital whatsits can be done within a budget of £400,000 a year? Are we not really just seeing the first step in what will be an ever-increasing budget for this regulator?
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): It is important that we set the direction of travel. We need to take this incredibly important step today. This work ought to be seen in the context of the total annual police budget, which is £12.3 billion, and not the £400,000 annual cost of the regulator, but we may have to revisit this at a later point as technology advances and changes with time Money is a key aspect. I highlighted earlier, in justification to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, the budget and the way it has changed. In 2008, the forensic science budget was about £120 million; in 2018-19, it was £50 million to £55 million out of a police budget of £12.3 billion that year, so we can see the reduction. Part of that may be due to improved efficiencies, but there are significant concerns in the system that things are being squeezed There are particular concerns about the squeeze when it comes to more niche services. We all know about services such as DNA and fingerprinting, which—this is very crude phrasing—might be seen as "mass production" services, but what about more specialised techniques? Mycology, for example, is a technique used in estimating times of death or events by using known growth rates of fungi, in providing trace evidence and in locating corpses. It can also include looking for causes of death or illness by fungi poisoning, and fungi used in biological warfare. There are quite extraordinary specialisms in the system One of the concerns highlighted to the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee was about lower commissioning rates of those more specialist services. An individual who contributed to the inquiry, David Hawksworth CBE, highlighted that about 10 years ago he might have had about five or six cases per year but that has really dipped to perhaps one or two, or even zero, cases per year. If he needs accreditation—if he needs to go on courses to be able to present that information in the court environment—that will be a significant cost to him. If he rarely uses his skills to make such contributions, it will be a great expense to him. There ought therefore to be recognition in the regulator’s approach that, for many things, we do want those standards—the 17025 standards, which are generic laboratory standards—but exceptions to that ought to be considered, perhaps on a case-by-case basis.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. With regard to digital forensics, I remind him of the case of Liam Allan, where errors made by the police in the disclosure of digital evidence eventually led to the acquittal of the accused. Following that case, we saw a chill go through the prosecution of rape, to the extent that the number of rape cases brought to the courts plunged. We are still struggling with that issue, which points to exactly what the hon. Gentleman said about the confidence of the system in the forensic capability, practices and standards used to bring people to justice.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I just want to be clear that in the circumstances of the case I referred to, the person accused of the crime was found innocent as a result of further disclosure, which proved that person’s innocence. To an extent, it was a case that was prosecuted on possibly false pretences, because of poor digital forensic practices and disclosure.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): I know the hon. Gentleman is not advocating a blank cheque for policing and recognises that there are always finite resources, but he alights on an important point. It is perhaps worth stressing the notion that investment in forensics and in making sure that forensic investigations are conducted to very high standards means there will be enormous savings on abandoned trials and prosecutions that go nowhere. He may well be right that some forces take a short-sighted view, but forensics should be a spend to save, because it will make the police force more effective.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Julie Marson (Conservative, Centre-right): I just want to echo in a practical way what the Minister says. As a magistrate, so many times I have seen defendants in court waiting to see what evidence is submitted on the day and what witnesses turn up on the day. The cost savings, in a very practical sense, could be very real and very substantial. The Minister’s point about the forensic reliability and transparency of evidence will seep into the criminal justice system in the cost sense.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher James Green (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Julie Marson) makes an interesting point, further to which I note that if the forensic system works effectively and efficiently and the evidence is introduced early in the investigation, that can give someone a reason to say, "Look, I did it," and thereby curtail the whole investigation, saving huge amounts of money and delivering justice much earlier.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
John Robert Lamont (Conservative, Centre-right): I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification I welcome the fact that there are no biometric measures in the Bill, as, to be honest, I think our biometrics strategy is far too large to be included in a private Member’s Bill. Recently, the Scottish Parliament passed the standalone Scottish Biometrics Commissioner Bill, which deals with how biometrics data should be used. That shows how big an issue it is, and why it should be dealt with separately Most people are relatively comfortable with a passport gate scanning our face or a smartphone using our thumbprint. Yet there are many legitimate concerns about the use of biometrics by police forces and privacy concerns about sharing our data. We recently saw the brave protesters in Hong Kong tearing down alleged facial recognition cameras as the regime tried to incriminate those marching against the national security laws. That is just one example of how the technology can be misused. I know that the hon. Member for Bristol North West has a keen interest in that, as he held a Westminster Hall debate on the topic last year It is clear that the House will support the Bill and I welcome its progression to the next stage. The dependability of evidence heard in our courtrooms, be they in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, is one of the most important things that we can protect as legislators. Without a justice system that we can believe in and that we can trust, we cannot be a thriving democratic country I believe that giving statutory powers to the Forensic Science Regulator will help drive up standards throughout the country and I am happy to support that principle today.
Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill — House of Commons, 2020-09-25
Topic: Law and Crime
Christopher Laurie Malthouse (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is making a compelling speech and he is absolutely right to point out the vital importance of forensic science in the detection, prevention and prosecution of crime. Does he agree that we must also be careful not to see forensic science as a silver bullet for crime solving but rather as a tool for the police? I am reminded of a story that you will remember well, Madam Deputy Speaker, of the Night Stalker, a gerontophile who plagued south and south-east London for some 25 years, breaking into people’s homes, often those of elderly people, and assaulting and often raping them. The Metropolitan police pursued this man for many years. He was active for a while, then disappeared for a while, then came back and was active again. Enormous amounts of active effort was put into pursuing him on a forensic basis. DNA samples were gathered, analysis was done, and they identified where in the world this person might have come from. Other people from similar demographics were asked to come forward and volunteer their DNA. Still, they failed to find him until there was a rotation of the investigating officer. A new person was put in charge of the investigation who worked out that the police were not actually trying to catch a rapist. They were trying to catch a burglar who happened to rape at the same time. That change in investigative posture meant that they caught him within two weeks. Although forensics can be vital, sometimes they are not the silver bullet people hold them out to be.