argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Christopher Samuel Tugendhat (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I thank those noble Lords who have participated in the debate. I also thank the proposer, who, in so far as he is responsible for the Bill, sought to meet the points that I raised. However, I have to confess that I am slightly disappointed with the Minister’s reply, and I hope very much that the Government will be able to put up a better performance on Report First, the noble Baroness explained, as did my noble friend who introduced the Bill, the external considerations that have led to the adoption of GNI, and I understand those. However, I raised—I think talking about British budgetary procedures is quite legitimate in the British Parliament—the difficulties that will be caused by measuring this expenditure against other public expenditure programmes. That is something that the Government ought to be very much concerned with. Of course, they ought to be concerned with international considerations, but they ought also to be concerned with domestic budgetary considerations. I raised specific questions in relation to those, which the Minister simply did not answer. She did not address the points at all. I also asked whether the Office for Budget Responsibility and the NAO had been asked for their opinions and what they had said. Again, answer came there none As I made quite clear when I introduced the amendment, I support the aid programme and its objectives. I have no problem with its increase in relation to national circumstances. However, it will be very dangerous if the aid budget is put into a uniquely privileged position. It is already having privileges lavished on it by a guaranteed share of the national income. That is one big privilege that I think will lead to it coming into disrepute. Now, the Minister compounds the problem by completely failing to take any account of the questions that I raised about the interaction between this budget and the domestic budget I very much hope that the Government will be able to put on a better show on Report and, for the sake of clarity, answer the specific questions that I have raised. First, what steps are they taking to reconcile these different measurements in terms of the domestic and international considerations? Secondly, have they consulted the NAO and the OBR, which they certainly should have done? If they have, what did the NAO and the OBR say? If they have not, why not In the—I hope not forlorn—hope that the Government will come back with a better answer on Report, I currently beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, the amendment seeks to leave out the provision for meeting the aid target annually and replace it with "five year period". Its purpose is to try to get over some of the difficulties caused by having a fixed target that has to be met within a calendar year with, as I explained earlier, a Government who are budgeting on the basis of a financial year, and to allow some flexibility. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Fowler, who I know feels passionately about these matters, is not in his place—he has arrived. In his excellent speech he made a number of points that relate directly to this issue and which I shall try to deal with The amendment seeks to change the timeframe within which the 0.7% target applies. The Bill currently places a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that public spending reaches 0.7% of GNI every year. I should just like to point out that the UN resolution did not actually require 0.7% to be achieved each and every year, so my amendment is not in conflict with the original UN resolution. For some reason, "every year" has been added in the nature of this Bill, and I believe that that greatly adds to the impracticalities and difficulties that the Bill presents. The amendment would mean that public spending on international aid would be required to reach 0.7% of GNI across a five-year period, and that would avoid the need to rush or defer spending on aid programmes I shall resist the temptation to take the Committee through the whole NAO report, which was published on 15 January and which I referred to earlier, but it deals with the real concerns and difficulties that the department has had in managing what it is being asked to do by government.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): I am not seeking to take sides with anyone. If the National Audit Office and the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee draw our attention to the very serious difficulties which the department has had to meet, and to the serious implications for getting the best value for money in the aid programme, we need to take account of that.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Government Operations
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): I will, if I may, reply to the noble Lord’s noble friend first. This is the National Audit Office. It has no partisan view. Its report says that rescheduling had to take place, leading to, "£250 million … of planned activity"— meaning the very people the noble Lord is talking about—being moved from the first three months of 2014 into 2014-15. It was delayed. The NAO claims that the rescheduling, "is likely to have delayed some of the benefits those activities were designed to provide" If the noble Lord is sincere in what he is saying, as I am sure he is, he is on my side of this argument.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Social Welfare
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): I agree that I could not make the noble Lord’s arguments because they are confused. He is confusing two things: the desire to ensure that we have effective programmes to deal with poverty and the desire to meet a particular target and implement it in a legislative form that will have the effect of programmes being delayed and of money being spent unwisely because of the constraints that are being put on the very excellent people in DfID. We are very lucky; in DfID, we have one of the best organisations in the world. Why on earth are we shackling it in a way that prevents it from setting priorities, doing its job effectively and getting the long-term certainty and commitment which the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, who I see is about to intervene again, has talked of so eloquently in his speech.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Christopher Samuel Tugendhat (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I had not intended to speak a second time, but I feel that I cannot allow the words of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, to go unanswered. I and a number of other noble Lords have made it clear that we support the British aid programme and its objectives and we understand that DfID is a very good administrator in these fields. The suggestion that in trying to improve the Bill one is in some way trying to deny the needy or trying to take food from the hungry is quite unjustified. I very much hope that he was not uttering those words in a personal sense Let me continue, because there has been a certain amount of moral indignation, which I find very difficult to take. Noble Lords, including two former Chancellors of the Exchequer and a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury—I am a former Budget Commissioner in the EU and have had a lot to do with large expenditure programmes in the private sector and the public sector—owe it to the House to draw on our experience to seek to improve the legislation that comes before us. I recognise that, as my noble friend Lord Fowler says, we are in a minority. I also recognise that although the Economic Affairs Committee, which is made up of members from all parties, reached a unanimous conclusion, its view is in a minority in this House However, the fact that one is in a minority does not mean that one should be constrained from drawing on one’s experience in trying to improve legislation. I believe that this Bill is flawed and that the amendments will improve the Bill. If the Bill can be improved, it will be more effective. However, if the Bill falls, that will in no way interrupt the flow of British aid or inhibit the Government’s ability to spend 0.7% or 0.8%. I hope that noble Lords, such as the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and others who think like him, will accept that we are speaking with good intentions.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Peter Brooke (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I have very few qualifications for speaking in these debates, although I had the extreme privilege, thanks to my noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby, of serving as the British Minister on the Budget Council of the European Union for the four years when I was in the Treasury—I suspect that that is about as long as anyone has ever done that job. During that time, we had to deal with problems that were, effectively, intractable. The Budget Council is a body with which the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, will be familiar. I am delighted to say that it was this Government who found solutions that meant that we did not have a continuous repetition of the failure of the process at the end of the year in arriving at a budget, which, in the final analysis, was determined by the European Parliament. It was a rich and pleasurable responsibility to hold and we earned the respect of our confrères on the Budget Council—rather as DfID is earning respect—for our concentration on solutions rather than on argument The second thing that I wish to say—there is an enormous amount to read on this subject, particularly in the short space of time between Second Reading and Committee stage—relates to the extreme utility, on the subject that we are discussing, of the footnotes in small print in the NAO report. It propounds issues that the International Development Committee might wish to consider. At least 11 out of 15 such issues apply directly to this as a way of making what may also be relatively intractable problems easier to solve.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
David Arthur Russell Howell (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I listened almost with amusement to the last forceful intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. He summed up in an excellent, succinct phrase exactly the content of my maiden speech in this House in 1997—namely, that economics is not a science, as many of its proponents insist, but an art, and a very ambiguous art at that, which is full of subjective views. To look back, frankly, at the development activities of the past 40 and 50 years, post the Second World War, the economists have not done a very good job. They have applied all kinds of economic rulings to the proposed triggers for development and have found that they have not worked. Of course, far more than economics is involved. There is a whole range of psychological and particularly local factors in all the countries that all of us have visited over the years—I have visited dozens of them—which are operating not to the laws of economics. I say "Well done" to the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. That is exactly the truth of the matter. We do not want to be guided too much by economists What we want is flexibility and room in which we can look to the future for once rather than the past and see the ways in which development can be triggered and promoted in the future. As my noble friend Lord Lawson said, the world has changed totally in the last 40 years. The developing countries are looking for new priorities and new ways of assistance. They are looking for ways in which they can graduate away from official development systems à la 20th century into new forms of support and development in the 21st century All sorts of distinguished reports from the other place and your Lordships’ House emphasise that. The latest report from the excellent House of Commons International Development Committee on the future—not the past—of UK development co-operation states: "The impact of DFID’s support … depends less on the volume of financial support and more on its ability to act as a purveyor of development excellence, helping its partner countries to identify innovative solutions" Your Lordships’ House should be thinking about innovative solutions and not the past. The committee also states: "As grants of aid become less appropriate in some countries, so new forms of development co-operation are necessary" It goes on to identify the evidence that it had gathered in the various countries that it had visited. That is the reality of the moment. New forms are required to promote development. If we glue ourselves into the old ways of thinking, we will deny ourselves the flexibility of this kind of goal, which our superb staffs in DfID, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and other areas will seek to be guided by, and we will do a disservice to development on a massive scale.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Macroeconomics
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I think that her argument is that, if the department spent, say, 0.8% one year, 0.6% another year and 0.9% the year after that but it met the 0.7% target over the five years, that would not be acceptable because it would look odd in the OECD statistics. As the vast majority of OECD members are nowhere near 0.7%, why is that a problem?
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
David Arthur Russell Howell (Conservative, Centre-right): Before my noble friend sits down, one point on which it would be helpful if she could come back—possibly we could discuss this on Report—is the question of what is "ODA-able", to use an ugly phrase. The Development Assistance Committee of the OECD is in constant debate, even now as we are debating this Bill, about the new definitions that are required of what is "ODA-able", or acceptable within the targets, and what is not. How does that link in with the concept in this Bill of the one-year, annual discipline? How will we enable the Bill to be effective in the light of the debates on changing the rules on "ODA-ability" that are raging on in the Development Assistance Committee—and, I suppose, in Whitehall—as she very well knows?
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Government Operations
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): As I understand the Bill, it places a duty on the Secretary of State to meet the target. If the target is not met, there has to be a report to Parliament. Clause 3 states: "The only means of securing accountability in relation to the duty in section 1 is that established by the provision in section 2 for the laying of a statement before Parliament … Accordingly, the fact that the duty in section 1 has not been, or will or may not be, complied with does not affect the lawfulness of anything done, or omitted to be done, by any person" Does that mean that the impact of the Bill is that, if the target is not met, all the Secretary of State has to do is lay a Statement before Parliament and then there is no further sanction against the Government? Or am I missing something?
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Government Operations
Nigel Lawson (Conservative, Centre-right): I hope very much that my noble friend Lord Purvis will give a full and complete answer to the important question which my noble friend Lord Forsyth has just put. As to what the Minister said, I find myself wholly unconvinced. She did not seem to understand the purpose of these amendments Before I comment on that, I must respond to the impassioned interventions of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. He was concerned about how the reluctance to pass the Bill, almost sight unseen, will be considered outside the House. He made an emotional speech. It is true, as I said, that the Bill is a triumph of gesture politics over good government. How it is seen outside the House I do not know, but I am not aware of overwhelming popular support in the country for the Bill. Indeed, my impression is that it has minority support. However, leaving aside the question of whether you believe gesture politics is more important than good government, our responsibility as a House is with good government and we should not be diverted from that. Whatever misleading remarks the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, may care to make, it is our responsibility to promote good government, and that is the purpose of these amendments.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Nigel Lawson (Conservative, Centre-right): That is disgraceful. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, will want to withdraw his tweet. I am not sure how you "untweet" or "detweet", but I am sure he will wish to do so. I am afraid I am not sufficiently technologically proficient to advise him on this matter, but I am sure he knows all about it Turning now to the remarks of the Minister, I wish to deal with three points in particular. First, she made a great defence of her department, DfID. I have to say that she has half a point here. If one looks at the various aid agencies around the world, DfID is probably one of the best. However, part of the problem is that a large proportion of British overseas aid is handled not by DfID but by multinational institutions, in particular the United Nations and the European Union—and all the evidence we have indicates that neither of those institutions has anything like the robust high standards to which DfID aspires. That is a major problem, and of course the more ODA is increased, the greater the problem becomes.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Nigel Lawson (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I am very sorry for the cause of the disturbance. I hope the noble Baroness who had the slight accident is making a full recovery I will close by saying that I cannot accept for a moment what my noble friend the Minister said about how, if we had a five-year flexibility, that would put us at odds with the rest of the world, which accepts a one-year thing. The rest of the world is not doing 0.7%, as I pointed out. It is doing very much less. It does not want to make it legally binding. I have to say of my noble friend’s final remark—that we have to do this to influence and persuade the rest of the world to follow our example—that this is a post-imperial spasm of the worst kind. There is no way that the United States, to take one country at random, will say, "My goodness me, look at this wonderful Bill that the British Parliament has enacted. Therefore, we will do the same". It has not the slightest intention to do that. Our leadership must be based on a number of factors—rather, our influence; alas, it is not as much leadership as it once was. But one thing our influence must not be based on is other countries saying that because we have passed this Bill they will do the same. That is nonsense. It is as well that we live in a world of reality and not the pipe dreams which evidently are the world in which DfID lives.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: Macroeconomics
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): I am rather alarmed by that, because I thought that I must be misreading the Bill, because I asked: am I right that all the Bill does is require the Secretary of State to reach a particular target, and if he does not reach the target, to come to Parliament to say, "I have not reached it because actually, the economy is in a bad way", but then there is no redress for those outside? If you had a Government who did not wish to meet the 0.7% target, all that the Minister has to do is to come along and say, "I am not going to meet the target, because I think that the economy is in great difficulty". If that is what the Bill says, I do not think that that is what the noble Lord has put on the tin.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, we have had a very interesting debate, particularly that last confirmation from the proposer of the Bill. Many people outside—indeed, many people in both Houses—believed that the Bill guaranteed that 0.7% of GDP would be spent on overseas development aid. Many of those who spoke on Second Reading appeared to believe that that was the case. This is a public relations exercise to tell us that that is what the Bill does. If, as many of us do, we want considerable resources to be made available for development aid, it seems to me perverse as part of that exercise to put in place a system of targets which need to be met in one year rather than five years which, as we have argued at great length this morning, would result in damage to ensuring value for money and proper accountability In his response the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, pointed out that much of the development aid goes into multilateral programmes. That is true; a minority of the aid goes on emergency relief and disaster—less than 10%, I believe. It is a small proportion. Many people believe that that is what we are discussing when we talk about £11 billion being spent, when only just more than £1 billion is actually going on that purpose. We are talking about development aid here, and a large part of that goes to other agencies such as the European Union.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill — House of Lords, 2015-02-06
Topic: International Affairs
Michael Bruce Forsyth (Conservative, Centre-right): The noble Baroness, for whom I have the highest regard, says, "Good". I have to say that the European Union does not have a terribly good record in accountability for public money. Indeed, one of DfID’s objectives is to improve accountability and be less dependent on multilateral programmes However, as has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and indeed the Minister, in her short intervention in the debate, the way in which you solve the problem of not being able to reach the target is to put money into multilateral programmes. For accounting purposes—I am sure that the Minister will intervene if I am wrong about this—if the department writes a cheque to a multilateral organisation, it counts as expenditure in year, whereas if it actually supports a bilateral programme, the expenditure accrues as the programme continues. So the perverse incentives will be to put more and more into multilateral programmes or those run by other agencies such as the EU and the UN, where the degree of accountability which I think all of us in the Committee believe we should have would not be delivered.