argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Arthur Wellesley (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. Of course, I understand the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that it is not just water quality that matters but water quantity as well. A number of noble Lords made reference to the River Thames. However, anybody who watched the BBC "Panorama" programme about two months ago would surely be left in no doubt that there is still much to do to clean up that river, which is in an embarrassingly poor state. Nevertheless, I understand that the quality of our rivers generally is much better than it was 20 years ago. I was very impressed by the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Randall, who clearly understands the problem well. He referred to an event in 1858, when there was general recognition of the appalling state of our rivers and the amount of sewage going into them. It is surprising that, in 2021, there is still quite the quantity of raw, or insufficiently treated, sewage flowing into our rivers I very much appreciated the support of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and quite understand his point that it is necessary to have co-operation between England and Wales over the rivers that flow between the two countries, and his acceptance that it would be entirely in order to establish a UK standard. I thank the Minister for his comments, and I was pleased to hear that, in the other place, Rebecca Pow has made a further commitment that the existing regulations will be enforced where required. But I again ask the Minister to consider whether it would be appropriate to establish a UK standard. He did sort of refer to that when talking about metrics, but if he has doubts about the existing European standard then we should surely try to devise our own I would be grateful if the Minister would be prepared to discuss with me a way of making targets for water quality a higher priority. There are many aspects of water that need to be improved, nevertheless I am surprised that improving water quality is not yet considered a higher priority than it currently is. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
David John Maclean (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I declare my environmental interests as on the register. This afternoon I will, if I may, speak from a seated position—I had a long train journey and the old legs are a bit ropier than normal My amendments in this group all seek to change the word "biodiversity" in the Bill to the word "nature". The only two amendments in the group for proper consideration in this debate are Amendment 5, which changes the wording in Clause 1, and Amendment 261, which attempts to give a definition of nature, so that my noble friend the Minister cannot say that nature is a completely different concept from biodiversity and that it would totally destabilise the Bill if we made this change. In this Bill we can define nature any way we like, just as we can define biodiversity, and it need not create any legal lacuna or new obligation The other amendments numbered in the 200s are merely examples in the Bill of where "nature" could be used instead of "biodiversity". I counted over 140 uses of the word "biodiversity", most of them—more than 100—in Schedule 14, but I have picked just a few examples so that we can have this debate in principle. Therefore, I do not want my noble friend the Minister to waste his time in the wind-up going through all those other examples and explaining why they are technically wrong Why change "nature" to "biodiversity"? What am I getting at? It really is quite simple: everyone talks about nature and not about biodiversity. All recent polls and studies show that the vast majority of people want to get closer to nature, to relate to it, and to get out and about and into it more. If you asked them if they wanted to relate to biodiversity, they would think that you were talking about zoo animals. "Biodiversity" has the flavour of a technical, scientific term, more applicable to wild animals than flowers, trees, butterflies and the landscape—at least in the minds of the majority of ordinary people The authoritative People and Nature Survey undertaken each month by Natural England found that 61% of people said that they felt that they were part of nature and 87% said that being in nature made them happy. A recent survey quoted by the BBC reveals that most people think that biodiversity is something to do with washing powder. We might scoff at that, and of course colleagues in Parliament, Defra, Natural England, the Joint Nature Conservation Committee and all wildlife organisations know what biodiversity is—but we do not count. We need to appeal to the tens of millions of people who are not officials, scientists or policymakers and who have a much more vague idea of what nature is—but know it when they see it, and want more of it.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Malcolm Sinclair (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and my noble friend Lord Cormack that legislation has to be precise and intelligible. If we are to take the public with us, which we need to on a Bill as complicated and as detailed as this one, it has to resonate with them, so there is a lot to be said for what my noble friend Lord Blencathra has suggested in his amendment However, I am slightly troubled on a couple of fronts. In answering the debate at Second Reading, my noble friend the Minister said: "As for my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s proposal to change ‘biodiversity’ to ‘nature’, he makes an important point, but the trouble is that those two terms are not exactly the same".—[Official Report, 7/6/21; col. 1308.] He then gave an example about the dreaded Sitka spruce, but he did not tell us why they were not the same and what the implications were for the Bill if we were to go down the route suggested by noble friend Lord Blencathra of half the time using "nature" and half the time using "biodiversity" depending on where it is in the Bill. When he said that, I was immediately sceptical, thinking, "Here comes a lawyers’ charter. If we’re using ‘biodiversity’ in one part of the Bill and ‘nature’ in another, the lawyers are going to have a field day". I wish my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern were joining in this debate, because he would help us I go instead to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, who analysed this matter in some detail and came down in favour of "biodiversity". I am sitting back on the fence where I started, because I was persuaded one way and the legal opinion has pushed me back in the other. I want to hear from my noble friend the Minister what the difference is between biodiversity and nature. If we could get that difference, perhaps we could reconcile it so that we got a Bill that was intelligible.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Anne McIntosh (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I am delighted to participate in this debate. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Blencathra on being so industrious in coming up with such an imaginative way to put forward something that he obviously feels very passionate about. However, I support my noble friend the Minister, who I hope will go on to explain why we have settled on "biodiversity". I support everything said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, about why "biodiversity" has a specific meaning. We should also look at the history of "biodiversity". There are a number of international conventions with which I am sure my noble friend Lord Blencathra, particularly wearing his hat with Natural England, will be familiar. Is he proposing that we now try to change all the international conventions which originally referred, even more confusingly, to "biological diversity"? I would put forward "biodiversity" as a compromise between "biological diversity" and "nature" or "the natural environment", because it has a specific meaning and we have subscribed to a number of international conventions. For those who will have to follow what is asked of them, "biodiversity" has that specific meaning, which I am sure my noble friend will explain I support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, in saying that we need a list of species or a better understanding of what is being asked. I am sure my noble friend will explain that when he moves the series of government amendments later today. I accept "biodiversity" as a compromise, but we need greater clarification of the list of species—flora and fauna—which are to be protected.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Hugh Trenchard (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I was much elated to read my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s amendments. I completely agree with him that "biodiversity" is one of the worst examples of a pseudointellectual word that most people do not understand and would never use in speech. I think my noble friend is right that, in the main, it would be much better if we used the easily comprehensible word "nature", on which there is universal agreement on its meaning. I completely agree that it is highly desirable that the Bill should use language with which the public identifies It is interesting that, in their response to The Economics of Biodiversity: The Dasgupta Review the Government refer to "nature, and the biodiversity that underpins it" This suggests that biodiversity and nature are not quite the same thing because one underpins the other, but even in a note to the preface to the review, Professor Dasgupta writes that "the terms Nature, natural capital, the natural environment, the biosphere, and the natural world are used interchangeably." The Cambridge Dictionary website informs me that biodiversity means: "the number and types of plants and animals that exist in a particular area or in the world generally, or the problem of protecting this" The first part of this definition sounds to me to be the same as nature, but then I am confused by the notion of protecting it. The "bio" of biodiversity is derived from the Greek bios, meaning life, and all the varieties of animal and plant life on the planet are indeed diverse So, although academics may disagree that the simple word "nature" is inadequate, I am not convinced that there is any material difference in meaning. I agree with my noble friend that we should change the word "biodiversity" to "nature" wherever possible. My noble friend’s Amendment 203 changes the "general biodiversity objective" of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 to the "general nature objective". Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether that Act was the first in which the term "biodiversity" was used and whether he agrees that it would be much better if our law was written in language that people can understand The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, suggested that "biodiversity" is the correct word because it is broader, but I am not sure that the noble and learned Lord persuaded me that "nature" is narrower than the whole diversity of life. I also worry for the future of the word "diversity" which increasingly carries connotations of gender and race. For all these reasons I support what my noble friend Lord Blencathra is trying to do.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Alexander Randall (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 5, to which I added my name. It is always good to follow my noble friend in his wise words. I have to say, though, that I rather feel out of my depth in this debate. I thought that it was going to be quite a simple subject, but I should have thought that we have such experts in your Lordships' House. I have been listening to the legal side of things, which I have little understanding of, while making law, and the excellent speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, on a much more scientific, biological aspect I come at this with a view that we want to make things simple. We are going to come, in the group following the next, on to a connection with nature. That is my biggest concern. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said that the word "biodiversity" arrived in 1985. I was not a young man, necessarily, when it first appeared, and I had been used to using other words. I have been involved in this environmental field as an amateur for all my life, and I accept "biodiversity"—I use it myself—but I am not sure that the people we want to connect more with nature do understand it. I would say to those noble Lords who have mentioned international things that the European Union introduced Natura 2000; it did not call it "Biodiversitas 2000" or anything else. "Natura" and "nature" have their place. I would regard myself as an amateur naturalist; I do not know how you would say I am an "amateur biodiversity person" I think this has been a very useful debate. I end up more confused, though that is a position I often find myself in, listening to debates. But I have to say that there is a real need for us to make sure that our fellow citizens understand that the environment is about what they hold dear—and that is nature. When I was at school, we had nature study; we did not have biodiversity study. But I admit that I am not in the first flush of youth.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Malcolm Sinclair (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, it is difficult to speak to an amendment that has not yet been spoken to by its proposer. I therefore ask my noble friend on the Front Bench whether she could make a note of this; we had exactly the same problem during the passage of the Agriculture Bill, which we finally got sorted out. The speakers’ lists should start off with all those who have amendments consequential to the first amendment. I want to speak to Amendment 11, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, but she will speak after me. This is nonsense and it does not help the Committee—I am very glad to see some nods around the Chamber from all sides. I therefore hope that my noble friend will make certain that we get a decent speakers’ list in future I support what I believe the noble Baroness will say on Amendment 11, just as she supported me on my Amendment 111, which also refers to soil, so we are as one. Soil is critical to the environment. You cannot get good habitats without proper soil. Unless soil is one of the priorities, we will never get there in the first place. There is a lot more to be said about soil later, but at this stage I just want to support the noble Baroness in her amendment. On the amendments spoken to by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, he raises some very important points but this also shows the difficulty of having targets, particularly where you have plants and species that can be affected by disease and climate change. It will be very difficult to set a target for tree health, because it can change in a matter of years, as the noble and right reverend Lord said about the ash disease. If you set a target and then have to change it, targets become increasingly meaningless. If we are to have targets, they should have a meaning. I am therefore sceptical. I understand what he is trying to do and part of me supports it, but part of me says that it has to work on the ground—we cannot just tick a box and say that we have done targets, and then keep on changing them. We changed the biodiversity 2020 targets because nobody was going to meet them. It brings the whole concept of targets into disrepute The noble and right reverend Lord also mentioned the tree-planting target. I have said before that it is not just tree planting that matters but the maintenance of trees. It is terribly easy to plant trees; I planted lots of trees in the year before I went to agricultural college and I hope that some of them have been clear felled by now—they should have been. However, it is disease and animal destruction of trees, and the planting up after the planting and the support for those trees to grow into mature trees, that really matter. I would rather plant fewer trees and get them all up to maturity than plant x plus 10% when 20% will die, as we end up with a minus quantity. The thrust of the noble and right reverend Lord’s amendment is in the right direction, but again, it is about how it will work in practice; it is the practicalities of the Bill that will make it a success or not.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
John Taylor (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I see this as a key grouping and I intend to speak to Amendment 10, moved so ably by my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge. It is ironic that we are debating this issue on the day of the summer solstice. However, I am an enthusiast for the Bill, and I think I share that with the previous speaker—although perhaps she is more prone to amending the Bill than I would be. I want to see the Bill on the statute book and, from past experience, I am averse to yet another approach to lists. Dream or not, they do not appeal to me, so it must be really something to get me to seek a change in a Bill However, light pollution is a real contamination of our environment. My noble friend drew the attention of the House to the briefing from Buglife, which I too have read, but it is there for us all to see. Light pollution affects not only human health, animal health and bird health; it affects insect health—not only how they function but how they can act as pollinators. There are serious environmental consequences of light pollution. I believe that Amendment 10 picks up on the need for the Bill to allow the Government and local government to set standards, to measure, to monitor and, if necessary, to control, avoid and reduce light pollution I must declare my interest in that I am a founding member and vice-chairman of the APPG for Dark Skies. The group was inaugurated by the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, and my honourable friend Andrew Griffiths in another place There has been a revolution in lighting: you get a lot of lumens for your buck nowadays. Lighting, properly used, is a good thing. It helps us with road safety and street safety, and with personal and property security. All these things benefit from lighting. But, living in a fenland landscape, I can say that bright lights over a porch doorway from a mile away are not a pretty sight. Lighting installed incorrectly and used inappropriately is a menace Closer to home, there is a new development that provides a strong focus for the need to control light pollution. Noble Lords will know what I am involved in intensive horticulture, and I am familiar with Westland, in the area of Rotterdam in the Netherlands, which glows in the night sky as it produces crops. Nearer to home, I am familiar with the Chichester plain, which also has an extensive glass area under lighting. We are now looking at vertical farming, and that after all poses many of the same challenges I believe that by putting this amendment in the Bill, we will have regard for this issue. If we are not going to lose the magic of the night sky, we need to do so. Last night, I watched the programme by Brian Cox on the magic of the heavens. They are a fascinating thing and our birthright. It would be a tragedy if by carelessness we lost this for humankind. I support the amendment.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Arthur Wellesley (Conservative, Centre-right): My Lords, I had put myself down to speak in this group to support the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, little realising that I would be following the chairman of the Woodland Trust, therefore making it difficult to add much in support of these two amendments. I had thought that the Government’s policy on planting more trees was already in a piece of legislation, but if it is not, it seems sensible to include it as a priority area, and, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, has also tabled, to strengthen the regulations on tree health. As a number of noble Lords have mentioned, we have in recent years been blighted by diseases in elm, ash, chestnut and larch, to mention just some of the trees which we have lost. Research into these disease-resistant varieties must also be a sensible suggestion. I should be very grateful to hear from the Minister why tree planting should not be a priority area I also wish to support introducing for discussion the question of light pollution for inclusion in the Bill as a priority. This amendment has been tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Randall, who is clearly knowledgeable on this subject, as on so many others. He is completely right about how difficult it is nowadays to have a good view of the night sky. Again, on this I should be most interested to hear the Government’s response to what appears to be a very sensible amendment. I also understand why a number of noble Lords have spoken about soil quality, which is clearly a fundamental element of all aspects of the environment and of biodiversity, and should surely be considered as another priority area I am sorry that like the noble Lord, Lord Curry, I am unable to support Amendment 32, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I should hear declare my agricultural interests. As others have said, and as the noble Baroness acknowledges, there is a huge difference between livestock fed on grass pastures in the United Kingdom and meat produced in feed lots amounting to thousands of animals on each lot, fed largely on concentrates, in North and South America, and in Australasia In this very diverse group of amendments, there are so many issues to which I look forward to hearing the Government’s reaction, but I also understand the excellent point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that if there is too much in the Bill, there is less likelihood of action.
Environment Bill — House of Lords, 2021-06-21
Topic: Environment
Zac Goldsmith (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank the noble Baroness for her question. On the first point about the cost assessments in relation to light pollution, I do not know whether that data exists. If it does, I have not seen it but I will ask the department whether it exists. If it does, I will make that information available by putting it in the Library—but I am not convinced that it does. On the broader point, in a sense this goes to the heart of the Bill. There are enormous cost savings in doing right by the environment. We know that if we do not use chemicals on our farms and allow them to wash into rivers, we will not have to spend money cleaning up our rivers downstream. If we manage land in a way that slows down the flow of water, we will need to spend less on concrete flood defences further downstream. It goes on and on. Perhaps the biggest saving of all relates, as the noble Baroness says, to human health. It is not an exact science; there is no data that we can point to and say, "This is exactly what we’re going to save by doing this or that". But there is no doubt that if we take care of our environment in a way that, frankly, we have not for many decades, there will be an enormous saving to society in many different respects as a consequence.