Cathedrals Measure — House of Lords, 2021-04-22
Topic: Civil Rights
Paul Butler (Bishops, Unknown): My Lords, I begin by thanking all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have taken part in the debate for all their comments. Perhaps I should have begun by explaining that my absence from presenting this in person is for exactly the same reason as that of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack: I would have been stuck in London because there are no trains out of King’s Cross from tomorrow morning until Monday morning. I am very grateful that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford is there I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, feels that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford addressed most of his points. The right reverend Prelate has also undertaken to write. If there is anything further that the noble Lord would like to pursue, I suggest that it is probably most appropriate to do it with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, rather than me as the one presenting this. We clearly all agree that radical reform is essential once the current situation has moved forward I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for saying that she would be happy for me to write. I think it is the most appropriate way of responding to the detailed comments she made about those specific things. I undertake to write to her. I note and put on the record about safeguarding work around core groups that revision work is being undertaken at present on how the groups are constituted and how they work. That particular point is currently being addressed I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his comments and his support of the Measure. It was very good to hear that Lincoln Cathedral worship is still being done so well. I would never have doubted that. On his question about the Charity Commission, yes, it will be able to cope. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, noted, work has been done on that. The Charity Commission is very happy that the Church Commissioners have offered some support. There is to be a memorandum of understanding between the Charity Commission and the Church Commissioners to support the co-regulation of cathedrals. It is in the process of being agreed. The heads of terms of this MoU were approved by both the Charity Commission board and the Church Commissioners’ board of governors in September 2020. The detailed MoU is now in the process of being drawn up. In addition, the Charity Commission and the Church Commissioners are expected to approve a registration protocol later this month to set out how they work in tandem to support and facilitate the cathedrals adopting new constitutions and statutes and applying to the Charity Commission for registration over the next three years With regard to church councils, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, for his sterling explanation of why he believes the changes are so supportive. I hope that that acted as a good response to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. I note that cathedrals will be able to appoint an advisory body. The great advantage of that is that it will avoid the confusion that the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, pointed to around governance and management. It also means that the advisory council can be made up of key stakeholders and have functions conferred on it by the chapter, which could include non-statutory functions currently undertaken by many councils, including being the critical friend and source of advice to the chapter. The details as to the composition, functions and proceedings of any such body, including accounts, would be set out in the cathedral statutes. This means that the role of an advisory council can be tailored to meet local needs and reflect the circumstances of the cathedral that it serves. With regard to the senior non-exec, the bishop does make this appointment but must do so after conversation and consultation with the chapter, so that it is a collaborative approach As to speed of implementation, I happen to know that some cathedrals are chafing and are ready to roll as soon as this has Royal Assent. Indeed, the legal advisers told me earlier today that there was more concern that they were running ahead of it having consent, rather than them being slow to implement I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for her part on the Cathedrals Working Group. For the record, I am the noble Baroness’s bishop. She is not just a priest in the Church of England, she is a priest in my own diocese. To answer her questions: were all the recommendations of the Cathedrals Working Group accepted? The Archbishops’ Council commissioned the Cathedrals Working Group and asked the synod to set it up. All the recommendations in the report were accepted by the synod but because the Measure itself was subsequently amended by the synod, the way in which some of the recommendations have been implemented are not quite as they are set out in the report. An example would be that the senior vice-chair became the senior non-executive member but, in essence, yes, they have been Are all the recommendations which require legislative change included in the Measure before the House? Not quite—a small number need to be implemented by amending the Ecclesiastical Offices (Terms of Service) Regulations 2009 and so could not be implemented through this Measure. These recommendations are fairly minor and relate to the terms of service of residentiary canons It had been intended to bring amending regulations to the General Synod in July 2020, to tee up the changes to the regulations, with final approval coming later. However, due to the lockdown and its impact on the life of the General Synod, that has been slowed down. The amending regulations will now be brought before General Synod for consideration in July 2021. If approved by the General Synod, those amending regulations are expected to come into force for each cathedral on the date certified for the adoption of its new constitution and statutes under the new Measure. Therefore, the delay to the amending regulations being considered by synod will have no practical implications, as no cathedral will have adopted its new constitution and statutes before this summer anyway The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about the plan to implement the non-legislative recommendations. They are being and will continue to be implemented through new guidance and template policies and training to support the new governance structures On the question about the Church moving to create an independent body to oversee its safeguarding practices in the wake of IICSA and whether this will cover the cathedral sector too—yes, absolutely. It is expected that any independent body which oversees safeguarding across the national Church will provide this function to cathedrals. Indeed, the first steps towards the creation of an independent body are now well under way on an interim basis, ahead of a longer-term, full-scale, independent set-up I hope that, except where I have undertaken to write, I have responded to all the questions raised by noble Lords. I thank them all for the enthusiastic support given to the Measure. I undertake that concerns raised around the Clergy Discipline Measure and so on are well heeded. At the July synod, the equivalent of a White Paper will be presented on what future changes might be required. Then, assuming that is taken note of, we will move ahead to necessary reforms to the CDM. I note in passing, as one who has to enact the CDM—and, indeed, has been subject to it—that in most cases it works quite effectively. The difficulty is that on some specific issues, often related to safeguarding, all of us concerned recognise that reform is essential. One of the key things there is the rights and the protections of clergy themselves when they face false accusations and difficulties With all that, and with thanks again for the support for this Cathedrals Measure, I commend it to your Lordships’ House.