argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Points of Order — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Foreign Trade
Nigel Martin Evans (Conservative, Centre-right): I should make the observation that Mr Speaker is very keen to ensure that the rights of Back Benchers are properly respected. Therefore, I will make absolutely certain the hon. Gentleman’s comments are passed on to Mr Speaker when I vacate the Chair bills presented Trade Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Secretary Elizabeth Truss, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Dominic Raab, Secretary George Eustice, Secretary Alister Jack, Secretary Simon Hart and Secretary Brandon Lewis presented a Bill to make provision about the implementation of international trade agreements; to make provision establishing the Trade Remedies Authority and conferring functions on it; and to make provision about the collection and disclosure of information relating to trade Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 120) with explanatory notes (Bill 120-EN) Fire Safety bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Secretary Priti Patel, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Matt Hancock, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Secretary Simon Hart and James Brokenshire presented a Bill to make provision about the application of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 where a building contains two or more sets of domestic premises; and to confer power to amend that order in future for the purposes of changing the premises to which it applies Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 121) with explanatory notes (Bill 121-EN) Coronavirus Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Secretary Matt Hancock, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Priti Patel, Michael Gove, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Secretary Gavin Williamson, Secretary Thérèse Coffey, Secretary Robert Buckland, Penny Mordaunt and Jo Churchill presented a Bill to make provision in connection with coronavirus; and for connected purposes Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 122) with explanatory notes (Bill 122-EN)
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Desmond Angus Swayne (Conservative, Centre-right): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to have delayed my point of order, but it is pertinent particularly to this business. May I ask why the Financial Secretary’s excellent biography of Adam Smith has not been laid on the Table as one of the papers pertinent to this debate You will appreciate that Adam Smith was absolutely categoric in his view of taxation—that it should be fair, proportionate, not retrospective and not arbitrary, which is clearly the subject matter of this afternoon’s debate.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): The right hon. Gentleman makes an extraordinarily powerful point in his own skilful way. I say this back to him: his group took that evidence before the added economic stress of the coronavirus. Many of the individuals affected will be contractors. They will be people who perhaps have no rights at the moment and certainly no way of finding the money to meet the demands on them. Even small sums of money will bring enormous pressure to bear on the individual. So he is right: this is not some vague and abstract tax issue. This is about people’s lives. That is why I was pleased when the Government launched the Amyas Morse review into the policy, and in December, he published a detailed report. I commend him for his heroic attempt to find a compromise, because that is really what he did. The facts and the conclusions are a little different, and that is because he was trying to find a compromise. However, when it comes to matters of natural justice, I am afraid that a compromise is nowhere near enough. Such a detailed review deserves detailed scrutiny, and I am going to spend a small amount of time looking at his central findings Sir Amyas recommended a December 2010 cut-off date for the loan charge. All loans before that date will be out of the loan charge scope. In a piece for The House magazine some time ago I referred to that as arbitrary, and Sir Amyas responded. He said: "It is not an ‘arbitrary’ date. It is the date from which the Finance Act 2011 ensured that tax was charged on income paid through loan schemes." But that simply did not make sense, even in its own terms. The Finance Act was not law in December 2010; it was simply draft legislation. It was not passed for another eight months—until July 2011. HMRC does not, or certainly should not, take its instruction from draft legislation. It certainly should not take it from press releases, which was what actually went out on that day. It takes its instruction from settled law—and the words "settled law" matter. Sir Amyas went on to argue in his piece that, once the 2011 Act was passed, "tax should have been understood as being due from that point." But even in 2011 the law was far from clear after the Government suffered a series of defeats in the courts.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): I am talking about how we got to that position. I will come on to talk about the financial status of these people, but my hon. Friend is right: these are not rich people HMRC, which has claimed that this is clear law, lost the Dextra Accessories Ltd and Sempra Metals Ltd cases in 2002 and 2008 respectively, when the courts specifically rejected the idea that the loans could be subject to income tax. HMRC then lost a case in 2012 and again in 2014, demonstrating that the 2011 legislation had not clarified the law to the satisfaction of the courts. That is a key point—it was not a question of it not being to our satisfaction or our constituents’ satisfaction, but it was not to the satisfaction of the courts. The fact that HMRC lost twice and then won twice tells us that even experienced, highly informed judges spending a great deal of time studying these cases found it a difficult issue to resolve.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Desmond Angus Swayne (Conservative, Centre-right): Is not the proof of the pudding in the fact that the 2017 legislation was introduced? The loan charge itself is standing proof that previous legislation was not sufficient to tax the people involved, otherwise that would have been done.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): As usual, my right hon. Friend trumps my argument in advance, but I will come back to that in a second What that demonstrates—and what my right hon. Friend’s point demonstrates—is a failure of the Treasury and HMRC to write clear and comprehensible legislation. If the judges cannot understand it, what chance is there for ordinary laymen—people who cannot afford to employ an accountant? We are not talking about city slickers or international bankers; we are talking about locum nurses, social workers, careworkers and hospital cleaners.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): I do. The hon. Lady tempts me into a political point, because the Blair Government were the most active promoter of these schemes, but she is right in general. When something is as unclear as this tax law obviously was, we do not take the date of resolution from the first date that HMRC wins—we do not keep going until we get the answer that the Government want. We take it from the day it is finally resolved in the Supreme Court. The case was not finally and definitively settled by the Supreme Court until 2017, when it found in HMRC’s favour on the Rangers, Dextra and Sempra cases. The Government—this relates to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West—then passed further legislation to clarify the law. Even after the court case, they passed legislation to clarify the law. If it was so clear, why did we need a new law in 2017? That is the fundamental point.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Julian Murray Lewis (Conservative, Centre-right): My right hon. Friend is making an unanswerable case in logic, but I would like to put another political point to him. The cause of tax avoidance is not normally associated with such parties as the Labour party or the Liberal Democrats, but I am sure he would acknowledge that Members from both those parties have played a leading role in trying to put this injustice right.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): I thank the right hon. Gentleman—I nearly called him my right hon. Friend, from my days on the Public Accounts Committee When financial advisers and accountants could not understand the law, when employers could not understand the law, and when the courts could not agree on the law until 2017, how could an ordinary layperson possibly have understood the law The Supreme Court’s eventual decision, overturning three decisions before it, reflects changing national attitudes on the responsibility of the taxpayer—the point the right hon. Gentleman has just lighted on. As a result, one organisation representing the professions involved explicitly changed its guidance to its members. It said: "Members must not create, encourage or promote tax planning arrangements or structures that…set out to achieve results that are contrary to the clear intention of Parliament in enacting relevant legislation and/or…are highly artificial or highly contrived and seek to exploit shortcomings within the relevant legislation." In what year was that changed guidance handed out by the professions? 2017.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): My right hon. Friend is making some very good points, which I agree with. However, does he not agree that if something looks too good to be true, it usually is? In my business, we have been brought this kind of scheme a number of times by our advisers over the last 30 years, maybe with a barrister’s letter saying, "Don’t worry. It’ll be fine. You can reduce your tax bill hugely by adopting this scheme." We have always rejected them because we knew the risk. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a requirement on the individual who subscribes to one of these schemes to make sure they understand the risks and that there is no guarantee the scheme will actually reduce their tax burden?
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is, of course, a skilled businessman; he knows what he is doing, and he is across this sort of thing—it is his job to be across it—but I am not so sure we could say that about a locum nurse or a social worker. This issue was actually at the centre of Sir Amyas Morse’s arguments. He took the view that the attitude from 2017 should apply back to 2010, even though the law was not clear. He took the view that the principle of a taxpayer’s responsibility for their own tax affairs must be upheld. That is the point my hon. Friend is making, and it is right—but only when the law is clear. That means that the Government have a responsibility to make the law clear and not to punish ordinary, hard-working taxpayers when Ministers fail to live up to that responsibility HMRC itself seems to disagree on the importance of the taxpayer’s responsibility. Why do I say that? Because until 2014, it did not approach the individual taxpayers; it approached the advisers. It approached the companies that insisted—they did not ask, but they insisted—that these locums and social workers took up this option. HMRC went to the advisers until 2014—until the issue suddenly started to become quite controversial Last year, the Prime Minister himself commented on this issue. He said: "The real culprits in this matter, if I may say so, are not so much the individuals themselves who have decided to use the loan charge as a way of minimising their tax exposure. It’s the people who advised them that it was a sensible thing to do. In my view, we should find a way of going after them." That is the Prime Minister’s view, and I happen to agree, unusually.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Michael Davis (Conservative, Centre-right): Yes, I will send HMRC a copy of Microsoft’s thesaurus. Not only that, but in paragraph 3.8 of his report, Sir Amyas states: "The Review’s legal advisers found that there was no precedent for that element of the design." That is the retroactive, retrospective or backward-looking element. There was no legal precedent for that design. I hope, frankly, that the Government will now stop playing with words and finally concede that this is indeed a retrospective measure—an unprecedented retrospective measure The only just, fair and rational resolution is to remove the retrospective nature of the loan charge and set the cut-off date when the law became clear—when the Supreme Court finally settled the matter in 2017 and when the Government felt it necessary to legislate to make clear what they meant in the first place. That is why, as I made clear, if the Government do not act to address this issue, Parliament—all of us who take this very seriously—will have to act for them and make clear that, in the future, HMRC can under no circumstances act retrospectively. If we cannot solve this, here comes a Finance Bill. I suggest that the Minister should make one simple adjustment to his plans before they are published: change December 2010 to July 2017. That would resolve the issue. It would lift enormous pressure off 50,000 of our constituents, and it would put the Government in a morally defensible, justifiable and decent position Tax law is the only part of English law where "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply. If HMRC tells us we owe it money, then, until we prove otherwise, we owe it money. It is therefore very important that the law is clear—that it is not subject to reinterpretation by subsequent Governments and it does not move with social mores or whatever; it is simply clear. That is what we have to do. In the interests of natural justice and the financial and mental wellbeing of thousands of our constituents, it is time for the Government to change their mind and remove this harrowing burden from the 50,000 people who have been caught by it.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Paul John Holmes (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. His point backs up mine. Any team that the Treasury sets up—and there should be one—to deal with people affected by the issue should treat them as people, not as numbers, which is unfortunately how HMRC has a track record of treating them.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Paul John Holmes (Conservative, Centre-right): I agree entirely. This is not the only case of people being treated unfairly by HMRC. I really hope that the Minister listens to the concerns being expressed across the House, particularly about the issue under discussion. There is a wider point here about HMRC. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, it has decided to charge people retrospectively although the situation arose through its negligence. Never again—I feel this strongly—should it be allowed to adopt retrospective measures to cover its failure to get its policies in order Lastly, the Minister needs to make it clear, hopefully today, that the people affected by this are victims. They are struggling after following advice given to them by independent tax experts. I hope that he will look at lengthening the repayment period, commit to dealing fairly with the people affected by this, and never allow this to happen again. Ideally, he should at the Dispatch Box this afternoon scrap the loan charges affecting so many of my constituents.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Robert Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Centre-right): In 2018, when a group of constituents first came to my surgery to complain about their treatment by HMRC, I was not particularly sympathetic—they were talking about loan schemes, of course. After all, why should a group of people use schemes to pay less tax than the rest of us? If they do not pay their fair share, others have to make it up, or so I thought. I was actually too harsh, not because people should not pay their fair share of tax, but because I did not understand the circumstances until they explained their predicament First, the people I met were clearly not out to defraud the system. They did not look or sound like petty criminals. They were normal, decent and honest. Some explained that they did not even have a choice, as we have heard: either they used a loan scheme or they would not be employed by the company or, in some cases, the state Secondly, as self-employed individuals, they were often contracted to different entities. Nobody but themselves, from what they earned, put aside anything for pensions, sick leave, paid holidays or, indeed, guaranteed employment. They were much less secure than someone with a permanent job In the interest of being quick, I have four requests of the Minister. First, I would like to see the retrospective nature of the charge removed up until July 2017, when the Finance (No. 2) Act 2017 was introduced. That makes sense to everyone Secondly, if that is not possible, the Government should revisit the settlement terms, which are hugely punitive. We have just heard the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans) say how punitive they are, and I would like to see a radical reduction in extortionate interest rate charges and inheritance tax demands. Thirdly, we would all find it distasteful for the Government to send out settlement terms using words that imply people have deliberately broken the law—they did not. HMRC allowed the use of loan schemes every year. It sent the tax returns back, and people thought they were doing right Finally, I see no reason why loan charge repayments should not be delayed by a year, rather like IR35, in response to the health crisis we are all facing. So many people are worried enough at the moment. Give them a break—give them another 12 months.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Law and Crime
Sally-Ann Hart (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Gentleman talks about the system being just and fair. As British people, we uphold the rule of law. That is part of the very nature and fabric of Britain. Retrospective legislation, in itself, is against the rule of law.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
David Timothy Simmonds (Conservative, Centre-right): Everybody in the Chamber is going to agree with that point, but fairness and justice clearly extend to this Chamber making decisions that are appropriate for everybody. I am very mindful of what my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said about ensuring that everybody pays their taxes and everybody is treated fairly. I simply say this: there has understandably been a huge outpouring of sympathy towards people who did not expect to find themselves facing a very substantial tax bill because they thought they had done the right thing. I urge Ministers to be as helpful and as considerate as possible in approaching the settlement of that, but it is also clear to me, as someone who worked as a professional in the financial advice business—not as a tax adviser—when these schemes were being rolled out, that huge numbers of people avoided them, because they recognised that they were being asked to put something on their tax return that they knew was not correct. We therefore have to strike the right balance in how we deal with the issue today.
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): On the importance of Members of Parliament speaking up, is the hon. Member concerned, as I am, that effectively, HMRC is smearing constituents as tax dodgers and adding to their mental anguish, rather than trying to assist them through this process?
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Paul John Holmes (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Member’s speech perfectly sums up the problem for many of my constituents in Eastleigh. So many times, they get a letter and desperately try to get through to HMRC, but there is no constructive dialogue with HMRC. Does he agree that we need a better bespoke team to work with the people affected by these measures?
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review — House of Commons, 2020-03-19
Topic: Macroeconomics
Alexander Jesse Norman (Conservative, Centre-right): I congratulate my right hon. Friends the Members for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) for securing this debate today, and I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for their contributions. It is a measure of the effect they perceive on their constituents that, in these circumstances, they are here in such numbers The outbreak of covid-19 has created extraordinary circumstances, and it is important to say up front that the Government are keeping the situation under close review, as elsewhere, and will take a proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered by the loan charge who is unable to file their return by 30 September. That date has been moved back to give people enough time to respond to the Morse report and its recommendations, but the Government will insist that HMRC takes a proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered by the loan charge who is unable to file their return by 30 September Anyone who believes they may be affected by this should please contact HMRC as soon as possible. Equally, we must recognise that HMRC’s workforce may well be affected by the outbreak. Where appropriate, HMRC has made it clear that it will take steps to support anyone who has been disadvantaged by delays at its end as a result of covid-19. As the House will know, HMRC has already established a helpline to support any businesses and individuals affected. The hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) raised that issue, and I can confirm the helpline has now been in place for some time and has an expert and supportive staff behind it As this debate has made clear, the loan charge, and with it the wider issue of using disguised remuneration schemes to avoid tax, has been the subject of public concern and considerable controversy. Let us be clear that tax is never popular, and my colleagues and I recognise the strength of feeling and sympathise with those who may be subject to the charge. Today’s motion reflects some of the arguments and concerns expressed by colleagues that the loan charge is retrospective and unjust and that the law was not settled, it is claimed, until 2017. If I may, I will deal with each of those charges in turn First, however, we need to be clear what we are talking about. Disguised remuneration is a term of art—it is a fancy term—but the House should be under no illusion as to what it amounts to. Such schemes are a form of contrived tax avoidance in which people are paid in the form of a loan with no interest and no intention or requirement to pay the loan back.