Register of Arms Brokers Bill [HL] — House of Lords, 2016-06-10
Topic: Law and Crime
Judith Anne Jolly (Liberal Democrats, Centre to centre-left): I thank the Minister for her reply, which I shall come to in a moment, and other noble Lords for their contributions to this excellent and important debate. I should not finish without thanking the Library for producing its briefing and Amnesty International and Saferworld for theirs, as well as expressing my gratitude for the support—in a sense—of the Minister and her officials, who found time in a busy schedule to meet me, and to all those who have given me encouragement The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, whom I thank for his support, talked about the Modern Slavery Act and the parallels there, which was really quite interesting. He talked about supply chain transparency, which is very much what the Bill is calling for. With modern slavery and arms-broking, when things are done illegally, you have the opportunity for crime, but also for people to make very big money. That is one of the issues here. He also mentioned good practice. One thing that we would call for is for training for arms brokers in various instances, so good practice can be exemplified My noble friend Lady Smith of Newnham talked about a fit and proper person. We should not really baulk at fit and proper people. FTSE boards are now called upon to have fit and proper people sit on them, and you cannot be a charity trustee without being deemed fit and proper. Arms brokers should not be excluded from that The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, made some interesting points about his colleagues and friends being given a tough time. I hope that it was not too tough, but these are serious things that are being considered. Questioning needs to be done and, if they were given a tough time in getting their licence, I would not apologise for that—I would say that was absolutely appropriate. Not all British brokers are whiter than white There was the government consultation, to which both the noble Viscount and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, referred. It was published, or put up on the website, with no announcement that it was there—it just suddenly appeared; then, all of a sudden, the whole thing was dropped. So the consultation was started under the coalition, and the new Government caused the whole thing to disappear. Perhaps the noble Lord and I are not too far apart and, if this Bill is to proceed, we might share some thoughts over a cup of coffee My noble friend Lord Stoneham of Droxford gave the Minister four pointers. She might reflect and have a look at Hansard with her officials afterwards to see whether they might be applied I give many thanks, too, to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who has given me a lot of support. I really value having on my side a renowned and doughty campaigner—but, not only that, an experienced and expert parliamentarian. He flagged up the relationship between foreign policy and the arms trade. That is really critical; the arms trade and brokering arrangements have to reflect the Government. The eight criteria go some way towards that but, when one looks at some of the deals that have been made, one questions how those criteria have been met. It looks as if they might have been shoe-horned. He talked also of transparency, and we do need that in this trade; we do not need muddy waters The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, talked about a conversation that he and I had in advance—and I must be careful next time when I talk to him before going into a debate on a Bill. I do not recollect talking about cattle, but there we go. I might have used the expression, "a stick". He talked about death and destruction, and at the end of the day that is what these deals can produce—not fluffy toys. I am not a pacifist; there are times when arms are absolutely appropriate, but they have to be absolutely appropriate, and we must not forget that people have human rights. Very often, arms—not just weaponry but other things that come under the list—seriously infringe people’s human rights, and abuse them. We need trade, but we need legal trade deals, and it is important that that is the case. We need to be absolutely clear that the people undertaking these deals are the sort of people who we feel should be doing it Human rights should be good for business. On Monday afternoon, I am meeting ADS, which fully understands the need for human rights—it is up for this and understands this. But there are a few unscrupulous brokers, for whom the concentration is not on the human rights but on the money; we are not talking about hundreds but about tens of people, and maybe fewer I have been used to calling the Minister my noble friend, and we are still friends—and I come to her response. The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, made the point about drafting Bills; it is for experts, and we are not experts in drafting. That is not our area of expertise but, with the assistance of officials, I am sure that we can come up with fit and proper amendments in Committee We need to talk about evidence of harm, which I deliberately talked about only from a policy perspective. I have seen a catalogue of harm, which I could have brought before the House if I had chosen to. I chose not to, partly because of time and partly because I did not want to get muddled or muddied, but I can give noble Lords chapter and verse. I am sure that the Minister will have seen some of it as well. The Minister outlined the eight criteria, but I question some of the decisions that must have been made. I would like an opportunity to talk to people who make decisions based on those criteria, and how they fit in. The committee recommendations to which she referred went back to 2007. The Commons arms committee has more recently been much more vociferous on this matter It is sometimes up to a Government to make a decision. The Minister made the point that there was no huge enthusiasm for this particular measure or move in the consultation, but it is up to a Government to make decisions that people will sometimes not be happy with. We make decisions because it is the right thing to do. I think that this is the occasion. In talking about small numbers, the Minister in a sense made my argument; there is no need for huge numbers—it is the right thing to do, so please do it. I would be grateful if she could meet me afterwards, perhaps with the Minister, Anna Soubry.