argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): Not yet I can confirm that there has been no change in Government policy on outsourcing. I suspect that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) has asked this urgent question in the light of the recent concerns surrounding the Government’s outsourcing contract with Concentrix Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs places the utmost importance on providing a quality service to its customers. As the Government have made clear, high standards were not met in recent months by Concentrix, the company HMRC had engaged to help us in the important work of tackling fraud and error in the tax credits system. Once this became clear, HMRC took steps to rectify the situation and deployed HMRC staff as quickly as possible. From that point, no new cases were passed to Concentrix, and HMRC took back 181,000 individual cases that were being managed by Concentrix. I can reassure the House that not only have all the 181,000 cases been finalised, but HMRC has now restored the expected quality levels of customer service to ensure people receive the tax credits to which they are entitled. HMRC continues to review outstanding cases in which a mandatory reconsideration has been requested, and it has taken steps regarding the future of the contract with Concentrix On 14 September, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury informed the House that HMRC would not be renewing the contract with Concentrix. Last week, she informed the House that HMRC is currently in discussions with Concentrix to agree a negotiated early exit to the contract. These commercial discussions continue. I want to be clear that HMRC will not go back to the market to seek another partner to replace Concentrix and provide additional capacity to challenge error and fraud in the tax credit system. There has, however, been no change in Government policy on outsourcing, which can be an appropriate way to deliver both quality public services and savings for the taxpayer. I assure the House that HMRC is committed to learning the lessons from the problems that have arisen over the past months, supported by the independent review of the National Audit Office.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): I have had the pleasure of responding to debates on this in Westminster Hall and in this Chamber, and this is now the third occasion I have had such an opportunity to respond. There are clearly lessons to be learned. The Financial Secretary has made the Government’s position very clear: Concentrix will not be providing the service in the future. However, there is no change to Government policy on outsourcing, which can be an appropriate way to deliver both quality public services and, importantly, to make savings for the taxpayer. We will have to wait to see what the independent National Audit Office review shows, but I am sure we are all looking forward to it. As I have said, there are many lessons to be learned.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Mark Julian Francis Pawsey (Conservative, Centre-right): Our constituents expect the Government to spend taxes wisely and efficiently. Is it not entirely right that the Government should seek to minimise error and fraud? Is this not a case of the Government having taken some action, discovered that it has not worked in the way they sought and then taken effective action to deal with that?
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Social Welfare
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): That is a fair point. It is worth saying that most of these problems are errors—there is always, sadly, some fraud as well—but this is about getting the balance right between, on the one hand, the taxpayer and, on the other hand, making sure that people receive the service they rightly expect. We have cut fraud and error in benefits to some of the lowest levels ever, making savings to the taxpayer. As I have said, there are lessons to be learned and there is a balance to be struck.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): Compensation is available where error has occurred. That has been made very clear. The hon. Gentleman asks whether I am prepared to apologise; I think this is now the third time I have done so. If people have not received the high-level customer service to which they are entitled and if mistakes have been made, I do apologise. I also say, however, that this is a necessary part of government and there are lessons to be learned. We will all make better decisions as we go forward. We will have to wait for the independent NAO report. That has all been said before.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): As ever, my hon. Friend makes a valuable point and worthwhile contribution. He is right that there have been mistakes and lessons to be learned over a large number of years in a number of different Departments. What is important is that we get the balance right, pay the money that people—often the most vulnerable in society—are owed, while at the same time protecting the taxpayer from unnecessary overpayment, error and fraud.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): I agree that everything that the Government do should be kept under close scrutiny. It is worth saying again that HMRC has reduced error and fraud in the tax credit system, so that it remains on target and is at a near record low since tax credits were introduced in 2003—some 13 years ago. We are always well advised constantly to check and ensure that the service we deliver is appropriate.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Christopher Heaton-Harris (Conservative, Centre-right): Does the Minister agree with this recent statement about the Government’s position on this matter: "We welcome this recognition from the government" That was said by the general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): I would say three things in response. First, if the hon. Lady feels that her constituent has been wrongly treated, she should write and apply for compensation. Secondly, it is worth saying that the savings to the taxpayer are probably in excess of £200 million —not a small sum. Thirdly, yes, there are lessons to be learned—[Interruption.] I shall have to say that even more often, because it obviously gets a reaction. As a Government, we would be foolish not to learn lessons and not to make sure that the service we provide is as good and appropriate as possible. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says from a sedentary position that this is turning into a debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. She asks whether we are going to come back and report. We shall have to wait for the independent NAO report.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Philip Andrew Davies (Conservative, Centre-right): Does the Minister agree that there is a great deal of amnesia on the Opposition Benches? I well remember the misery caused to my constituents when 50% of all tax credits were paid incorrectly during the course of the last Labour Government. I welcome what my hon. Friend said about Concentrix. What financial penalties will the Government impose on Concentrix for the cock-ups it has made?
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Social Welfare
David Nuttall (Conservative, Centre-right): Does my hon. Friend agree that the key objectives must be that the rules laid down by this House for the payment of tax credits or welfare benefits are followed accurately, and that fraudulent claims are identified and stopped? Does he further agree that these two key objectives are equally applicable whether the delivery is by the public sector or the private sector?
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): The contract is still under sensitive commercial negotiation. As for the exact penalties, the contract states clearly and transparently that penalties will be imposed for a failure to fulfil elements of it. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that HMRC will be seeking the best possible deal for taxpayers and, indeed, people who are entitled to these payments, and we fully expect to get the best possible deal.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Macroeconomics
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): I am not aware whether there were or not, given that I am a Minister who is relatively new to the Treasury and given that I am dealing with a subject that is not in my portfolio, but I am sure that I can write to the hon. Gentleman clarifying the position. I pay tribute to the hard-working staff in HMRC, who have helped to resolve what was a very difficult situation. HMRC took back 181,000 cases, and the staff have done a brilliant job, extending the helpline hours and specifically helping MPs. We should all be grateful for that.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): The right hon. Gentleman speaks of a failure to respond; the Government responded very quickly, which is why we are in this position, having cleared up the mess that we found. He asks when we will learn our lessons; we have learnt lessons, which is why the Concentrix contract is coming to an end. We shall all have to wait for the independent report from the National Audit Office, and there will be further lessons to be learned, but the Government have taken this matter very seriously and have acted quickly, and I think that we have done reasonably well in the circumstances.
Outsourcing and Tax Credits — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Government Operations
Simon Kirby (Conservative, Centre-right): I understand that the independent National Audit Office will be looking at all those and will report in due course—let us hope that it does so sooner rather than later—and we will learn lessons from that independent report.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Mark Julian Francis Pawsey (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend has given an interesting account of an industrial tribunal case, illustrating what we do not want to see happening. My grave concern about the Bill is that it would prevent many of our young people from getting valuable experience.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
David Nuttall (Conservative, Centre-right): I fear that if the Bill becomes law there is a danger that what now appears to be the settled law as laid down by these cases will be thrown into doubt and there might be a whole raft of new cases with new definitions to be challenged in the courts. As I will say later, although this Bill refers to "employment practice"—a new term to me, which I will come on to—there is no clear definition, as far as I can see, of what is meant by that, and I anticipate it will have to be tested in the courts and in industrial tribunals Let me turn to the case of Hudson against TPG Web Publishing Ltd in 2011. It was also held in this case that the claimant was a worker. Keri Hudson worked eight hours a day between 10 am and 6 pm for a publishing company and supervised a team on a website. The employer had considered paying her but decided not to. The tribunal concluded that she was a worker with a contractual relationship existing between herself and the employer and was therefore entitled to be paid the minimum wage. The reneging on the payment was a key factor because it demonstrated that the respondent recognised that the position at least could be a paid position At that time the National Union of Journalists said of the judgment: "This sends a clear message to media companies that if they treat interns like cheap labour, the NUJ will take you through the courts." It is clear from this case that the issue of interns who are actually carrying out work has been tested in industrial tribunals, which have found that if someone is working, they are liable to be paid. Unions have, to be fair to them, taken up this cause and are alert to the problem, and in appropriate instances take cases to a tribunal.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Centre-right): I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and this draws into comments I made, as do his opening comments about the legalities around national minimum wage law. I said at the opening of my speech that we still have people not being paid when they should be. Does my hon. Friend feel that people have the courage to go forward, even with union backing, or might they be worried about the effect it could have on the future of that industry?
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
David Nuttall (Conservative, Centre-right): I rather suspect that any individual who brings a case is more concerned about their own contractual position than the wider industry. They might be concerned about their position within the industry, and I wonder whether that is what my hon. Friend is driving at. But I imagine the industry would respect the judgments of tribunals and accept that an individual who had the confidence to challenge an employer on the interpretation of an Act of Parliament and was able to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the tribunal that they were on the right side of that would be someone employers should be looking to engage, because it would be someone who had the confidence, willingness and ability to take on a larger employer. If they manage to win that case, I would have thought that would only enhance their opportunity of being given a job.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Social Welfare
Jacob William Rees-Mogg (Conservative, Centre-right): I am interested in what my hon. Friend says. Will he talk a bit about the status of voluntary work? Some people want to volunteer, and lots of charities have business arms; there are charity shops and so on, which have a mix of employee and volunteer help.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Social Welfare
David Nuttall (Conservative, Centre-right): I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I shall deal with the intervention fairly briefly. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) raises an important point, and I apologise for not going into as much detail on it as I perhaps should have. I said in an intervention that the Bill nowhere refers to volunteers. It is silent on the issue of volunteers. When I pressed my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell on that, he rather bizarrely started talking about the exclusions—the people to whom the Bill does not apply—but it does not say "a volunteer" anywhere in the list of exclusions. I think that volunteers are included in the Bill by definition, unless they are covered by the catch-all, get-out-of-jail-free card in clause 3(1)(d), to which I referred earlier. It sets out that a person is excluded under the Bill if they meet "the terms of a definition set out in regulations" It may be that, for some reason unknown to me, my hon. Friend thought, "I’ll leave this problem to the Minister to solve"—and there is a real problem in the Bill: what do we do with volunteers? I will not attempt to go down that path and sort out the thicket of problems that arise from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset. There is a genuine problem with those who do a mix of things—who sometimes volunteer, and sometimes work in a shop, or a charity’s commercial arm. That point is not clear. It is quite likely that those sorts of issues will finish up in the courts and before the industrial tribunals. It will be a bun fight, and a money-making scheme for lawyers. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) is positively delighted by that I entirely accept that my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell is well intentioned in bringing forward the Bill. I have tried to draw out some of the genuine problems that I see with it, and I hope that on considering the arguments advanced against it, he will withdraw it. I will continue to oppose the Bill, and I urge the House to do the same.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Philip Andrew Davies (Conservative, Centre-right): I will come to that in a bit more detail, but just so that I do not look like I am dodging my hon. Friend’s question, let me say that it has varied wildly: some people come for a day, some come for a few days and some—I would imagine it is the majority—come for a week. However, some have come for months—five or six months in a couple of cases—and I will refer to them later, because part of their experience was part of what I see as the problem with the Bill The issue is what will be lost, and the definition in the Bill spells out what could be lost, not just in Parliament but when people are looking for jobs elsewhere. Clause 1(b) says the national minimum wage would apply where "the purpose of the employment practice is…that the intern meets learning objectives or gains experience of working for the employer listed in section 1(a); and…to provide practical experience in an occupation or profession." That seems to be good old-fashioned, traditional work experience, but my hon. Friend seems to want to cover it through the minimum wage, and that would not be sensible. Learning and gaining practical experience are what is at stake. People doing work experience do it for the invaluable opportunity to gain that experience, and that is often something money cannot buy For many people thinking about going down a particular career route, spending even a small amount of time just seeing what happens and what the role actually means, rather than how it is portrayed in the media, is invaluable. They might actually think, "This job isn’t for me. I thought it was, because of what I thought about it, but after spending just a week here, I’ve seen what it’s really like, and it’s not for me." The money someone can save by not pursuing a career that is no good for them is actually far more than they could ever earn by being paid the minimum wage for doing these things.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Jacob William Rees-Mogg (Conservative, Centre-right): Do we not also have to have confidence in people and in the fact that they can make decisions for themselves? If they decide that they loathe the internship after a week, they are not paid and they are not contractually obligated, so they can leave and take on another internship or paid employment.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Philip Andrew Davies (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is absolutely right—as he invariably is, I might add Under the heading "What is work experience?", the Government’s own guidance on their website about the minimum wage, work experience and internships says: "The term ‘work experience’ generally refers to a specified period of time that an individual spends with a business—during which they have an opportunity to learn directly about working life and the working environment." I should say at this point that work experience has actually proven quite an essential part of the Government’s welfare reforms—reforms that Conservative Members, including, I am sure, my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell, are very proud of. I am sure we all recall when the Government had to introduce emergency legislation because they lost the Cait Reilly case in the courts over the work experience she was asked to do as part of her benefits regime. The Government introduced emergency legislation, the Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Act 2013, which made it clear in law that people on benefits should have to do work experience in certain circumstances. Labour Members agreed to help the Government rush through that legislation because they too saw the importance of those people having to do work experience. The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), the shadow Minister at the time, gave Labour’s support to it. The legislation was about people doing unpaid work experience in the workplace because the Government believed, and everybody agreed, that that was one of the best ways to help them get into work. I think the Government said—I am happy for people to correct me if I am wrong—that about 50% of people on benefits who did the work experience got a job at the end of it. I would even be prepared to wager that my hon. Friend supported the Government in passing that legislation, because I am sure he appreciated how important that unpaid work experience was in people getting a job.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Social Welfare
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Centre-right): Perhaps controversially, I have always felt that being given benefits from the state provides an income that can be used to help to get work experience and move forward. This Bill seeks to help people who have absolutely no means of supporting themselves through the benefits system or an income outside it. That is a subtle but distinct difference.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Philip Andrew Davies (Conservative, Centre-right): I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but in making that helpful clarification he highlights one of the flaws in his Bill, because it does not make the exception that he has offered up with regard to who should be exempted from the terms of paid work experience. If he is saying that he wishes at a later date to add to his Bill another list of people who should not be part of it, then I welcome that. It is also the case that the Department of Work and Pensions introduced work experience as part of the youth contract, and that was probably one of the most popular parts of it I took on board my hon. Friend’s point—he made it very well—about some employers who might use internships for a purpose that some of us would not. I was struck by his example of Vivienne Westwood. However, we would be in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we went down the route in this Bill.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Robert Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Centre-right): Clearly, an employer who wishes to pay an intern could and should do so, if they have the money, but if they have to pay for internships, that comes off the bottom line and is a cost to the business, so undoubtedly there will then be fewer internships.
National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill — House of Commons, 2016-11-04
Topic: Labor
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Centre-right): Let me refer back to a couple of points I made in my speech. Two thirds of internships are already paid, so this Bill would not affect them. For me, the figure we must consider carefully is that 40% of people who are offered an internship cannot take it. People talk about reducing opportunities, but we are getting close to half of people being unable to take the opportunity in the first place.