argyrotsipi/train-dataset huggingface dataset:
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is incorrect. This concern was raised by my head of chambers and it is shared across the employment Bar. We cannot have a just and equitable jurisdiction in the law of unfair dismissal as it does not work The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) raised a point about the aviation sector. The conduct of British Airways was poor, but there is an important issue at stake. If in primary legislation the risks of fire and rehire are so great that employers are more inclined to lay people off, think what that would mean for airline pilots, for example. Airline pilots must fly within a two-year period to retain their flying licence. If they are sacked by British Airways at a time when the entire travel sector is struggling badly, they would be very unlikely to get a job and it could easily be two years. It is not just the loss of a job; it is the loss of an entire career. We need to tread very carefully when we consider primary legislation in the area of fire and rehire.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and some important points. She talks about the risk of moving to layoffs or redundancies, is there not also a danger that businesses will not recruit people in the first place or will not scale up because of the fear that employment legislation is so complex and is increasingly one-sided on behalf of workers? That would deter employment, which is the exact opposite of the situation we all want to see.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): We all know there is always a risk that we make employment relations so onerous that there is a temptation to engage consultants. What we are primarily looking at is employers that have larger, unionised workforces. I am not sure how many employers it would engage, but the short point is that Conservative Members want a solution that does not make an existing problem worse, drive redundancies or lead to more business failures. Fire and rehire must be a genuine option of last resort when a negotiated settlement cannot be reached, when the business is on the brink of insolvency and when the alternative is layoffs.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Member makes an excellent point, and I just want to pick up on what he said. He points to the fact that the parent company had substantive profits, and that point was made by the Unite representatives who contacted me. I do not think that that case would have survived the employment tribunal in its early stages, as I do not think that it would have crossed the threshold of a sound, genuine business reason. I think the reason why Alex Cruz appeared before your Committee five or six months later and spoke very differently about his plans for pilots, cabin crew and everybody else was because the company was on thin ice, and I think some damaging concessions were made in that session. I think you are right, but I do not think that my solution fails to capture it.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): I do not think that my proposal is at odds with what the hon. Member suggests Just briefly, because I am coming to the end—[Hon. Members: "No."] I would like to focus the remainder of my remarks on the detailed work that has gone into clause 1 and the extended duty to consult, which is proposed to go into the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act as new section 187A. One of the things I think is most surprising about this, despite the fact that it is obviously very persuasive at first blush, is that it immediately takes the trade union, the employee and the employer into their very first meeting talking about fire and rehire. When I spoke to my constituents and the Unite representatives who were looking after them, the thing that had been the most stressful was that they had gone into these meetings and found that from the very start, dismissal was already being mentioned as an option. It was, "You will take this pay cut, otherwise we will sack you and get you back." That seems to exacerbate the problem, rather than improve it The law in this area is not working. When I speak to employers about why they have been raising fire and rehire so early, they always cite section 188 consultation obligations, the "in good time" requirement under that, and the genuine fear that they will be hit with a punitive protective award if they have not put all their cards on the table at the start. A much more sensible route would be to take the heat out of these negotiations and make fire and rehire a last resort that only comes in when all other options have been explored That is why we should have specific language in a code of practice. It could say something like, "An employer who begins a section 188 consultation only after it has attempted to negotiate a change in terms and conditions consensually will be regarded as beginning that consultation in good time." Alternatively, it could say, "Where an employer is attempting to negotiate new terms and conditions before any fire and rehire process, that amounts to special circumstances that rendered it reasonably practicable not to comply with section 188."
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will take those first two points in succession. The first was about whether these issues are not better raised in Committee. The answer, respectfully, is no, because I do not think an area as technically difficult as this belongs in primary legislation, and I have explained why the Bill is at odds with the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, the intentions of Parliament when that Act was passed and the existing web of laws at section 98 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 dealing with unfair dismissal. The issues covered in the Bill belong in a code of practice backed up with financial penalties, rather than in primary legislation To take the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), I of course accept the stress that people were subjected to, and all the work that Members on the Government side of the House are doing is directed at minimising that, but the solution we are considering and discussing must not give employers leeway to abuse employment rights. We have been thinking about that just as much It is precisely because I do not think employees should have a gun to their head at the start of consultations that I cannot support clause 1 of the Bill, which requires employers to lay all their cards on the table on the issue of fire and rehire from the start. Rather than demanding full disclosure from day one, we should be much more sensitive to the legitimate desires of businesses to remedy defects before they have to reveal they are on the verge of failure, given what that might mean for their business at a stage before they would wish to disclose it.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Gentleman knows that proposed new section 187B(2) says: "The information to be disclosed is all information relating to the employer's undertaking" It would be almost impossible for an employer to comply with that without its having to put on the table the fact that it is considering dismissal in the first instance I hope that, if my speech has strayed into technical issues of industrial relations law, that reveals how difficult this question is and how any attempt to impose primary legislation runs significant risks of unintended consequences that would be much worse for workers’ rights and job losses. We on the Conservative Benches depart from the Opposition in that we think there is strength and flexibility in existing employment law, but we also think that it could do with being robustly reinforced through potential financial penalties. I hope the hon. Member for Brent North is reassured that we take this issue as seriously as he does. We are also thinking hard about it, and I am confident that we will deliver for workers’ rights.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Government Operations
Anthony Howe Browne (Conservative, Centre-right): I want to follow up on that point. The hon. Gentleman says we are fabricating news. Would he like to explain why a senior Labour MP is reported as criticising Labour’s employment practices? They have said: "To learn that our party are now using what can only be described as fire and rehire appals me. It is everything we as a party should be aggressively opposing." That is after the Labour party made a whole load of redundancies and then appointed people in exactly the same departments. It is not fake news.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): Is not it the reality that it is not that big employers are unscrupulous or evil, as opposed to small employers? The truth is that it is only larger employers who are bound by the obligations under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 and it is only they who are consulting with larger numbers, so, inevitably, the focus will be on large employers.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Laura Rose Farris (Conservative, Centre-right): To pick up on the point about redundancy payments and that being a suitable alternative, does my hon. Friend agree that of course a business in financial trouble could dismiss in any case for "some other substantial reason", which would not lead to a redundancy payment? It is all there in section 98(1)(b) of the Employment Rights Act 1996, and it would leave an employee as badly off as somebody who is subject to fire and rehire.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): I think that there are two separate things entirely. Who would not agree with skilling up our workforce? Of course we need to skill up our workforce and good employers will do that to enhance productivity, particularly if we move to a higher-wage, higher-skilled economy. It is absolutely right that we should do that. However, the key question on whether the Bill should go forward to Committee is: is the Bill in any shape or form amendable so that it can do what the hon. Gentleman wants? [Interruption.] I accept that Opposition Members may feel that it is, but there are cogent arguments from Government Members that it is not and that there are better ways to do this.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Law and Crime
Shaun Stephen Bailey (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) is a lot more learned on this matter than we are, but as a general point, does my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) not agree that the way in which we make good laws in this place is by ensuring that they are operational? Does he not share my concern that the Bill is very much open to legal challenge in its current form and that, if we want to make sure that it works, it has to be operational on the ground?
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): My principal concern is the amount of bureaucracy in and the interpretation of the Bill. I have many good lawyer friends—this usually has a "but" attached to it, doesn’t it?—but there are bound to be different interpretations of this kind of legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) set that out very clearly. Let us take just the phrase "all information"—that can mean virtually anything. A process can be subject to challenge all the way down the line and there can then be a claim for wrongful dismissal on the basis of a simple document that was not provided. Who would decide whether all the information has been provided? The appointed representative, at any point, could challenge the fact that all the information was not provided. It could be a very small piece of information that the employer never considered relevant to the discussion. Again, there is a huge opportunity for interpretation and bureaucracy. That cannot be positive for a good business environment There is also the issue of capacity. We already have issues about capacity for employment tribunals. This also brings in a whole new set of responsibilities for the Central Arbitration Committee and there is no understanding of whether that capacity can be filled.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): I certainly do not seek to do that. Proposed new section 187B(2) of the 1992 Act says: "The information to be disclosed is all information relating to the employer’s undertaking (including information relating to use of agency workers in that undertaking) which is in the employer’s possession, or that of an associated employer" There is a double requirement, so "all information" does seem to apply.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) makes a very good point, and I have a lot of time for him generally. My point is a general point, but there are specifics underpinning it that we have to consider. The definition of "all information" is relevant, as is the definition of "less favourable" when considering whether an employment contract is now less favourable. That interpretation will be left for the courts and lawyers to decide. I am looking at this from a business perspective. How would it affect the likelihood of businesses wanting to employ people? That is a big commitment for any business.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): Yes, but it would require a huge scaling up of the role and there are no money resolutions attached to the Bill. [Interruption.] If I or any other person does not want to see this Bill passed, we have a perfect right to stand in this Chamber and express that opinion. That is exactly what I am doing. As I say, it is better to have no legislation than poor legislation The capacity of employment tribunals is another big issue. The ACAS document says that employment tribunals are under enormous strain today. The Bill would likely significantly increase the workload of employment tribunals. Additionally, it would require them to make all kinds of interpretations. The ACAS document observes that tribunals are not economists. Tribunals would consider the situation between businesses and workers and would have to make decisions that, in my view, they may not be capable of making. This might introduce undesired complexity, for example. There are all kinds of questions, not just about capacity but about the competence of employment tribunals I am also concerned about duplication, as it seems to me that there are provisions in the Bill about situations covered by redundancy.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Simon Robert Maurice Baynes (Conservative, Centre-right): Can my hon. Friend perhaps provide a little more information from his expertise about the additional costs, both financial and for staffing, that he estimates will result from the high number of employment cases that might arise from this situation?
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): I would like to be able to, but I am not sure that is incumbent on anybody who opposes the Bill. It is right for somebody who introduces the Bill to state alongside it what extra capacity will be needed, and the cost of that to the taxpayer or the businesses concerned. To my knowledge, that work has not been done I am also concerned about clause 27D, on the unilateral variation of employment contracts. No doubt some of the evidence taken showed that some contracts of employment allow unilateral variation. That is not something I have never done in my business practice, but nevertheless the Bill seeks to make those provisions unworkable or not legal, meaning that employers will not be able to rely on that in future, and those elements of the contract will effectively become null and void. I do not blame the hon. Member for Brent North for seeking to do that. As an employer I would not involve myself in such a practice, but it seems to be retrospective legislation. It is bound to make businesses nervous if we legislate retrospectively about such matters, and I wonder whether he has considered that point.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): It is an interesting point, and I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s clarification. My final point is on clause 187E, which seems to say that in almost any circumstance where new terms are offered, the employee has an automatic right to go to a tribunal. That seems to me strange. If any of the things outlined in subsection (1)(a)(iii) happened and an offer has been made, the clause seems to give an automatic right for someone to go to an employment tribunal, without requiring the provisions in clause 187A or B. I might have read that wrong, but it is certainly seems to be the case. Admittedly, that kind of point could be picked up in Committee, but my overriding point is this that issue requires cross-party thought. I would much rather see the provisions become effective through guidelines, financial sanctions or other means, and I do not feel that I could support the Bill were it to be voted on today.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), who, through his commitment to his own Bill and through the amity he has shown to his colleague the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), who is bringing forward similar legislation today, demonstrates that he has a keen commitment to dealing with this problem. Although, as I will outline, I have a different approach to how we should tackle it, I believe the principle is shared across the House It is a shame that the hon. Member for Brent North chose the time I stood up to walk out of the Chamber—I shall not take it personally, whether or not it is personal. I wanted to commend him for the way in which he presented his argument and case today. He has undoubtedly done a tremendous amount of research and gained tremendous understanding about this issue, and in taking so many interventions from Members on both sides of the House he demonstrated that he was prepared to debate, understand and move forward. I will return towards the end of my contribution to how we might continue the progress of this amity between the hon. Members for Paisley and Renfrewshire North and for Brent North and my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris), who outlined a substantial alternative approach and a better one to achieve the goals that are shared across the House It was a shame, and perhaps a disappointment to the hon. Member for Brent North, that what was the oratory of Cicero from him descended into the mosh pit of Westminster debate with the contribution from the shadow spokesperson, the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain). It was a metaphorical head in the hands moment for the hon. Member for Brent North, but he did endear himself to many on the Government side of the House with his contribution. He was at one moment in danger of talking out his own Bill. Ironically, the fact that, unusually, there was a statement today gave him some latitude to come to a close I wish to pick up on two points the hon. Gentleman made. First, he said that his Bill would make the UK the best place to work, but the UK is already the best place to work, in large part due to measures that this Government have undertaken, particularly in their commitment to the living wage and in continuing the progress on reducing the gender pay gap by ensuring that there is enhanced reporting by boards about the treatment of employees. This Government are continuing to make the UK the best place to work, not least—I say this as much of this debate relates to actions that took place during the covid period—with the exceptional response of the Chancellor to support businesses through the furlough programme and other UK Treasury measures. So I gently make that point to the hon. Gentleman.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Macroeconomics
Kevin Paul Hollinrake (Conservative, Centre-right): My hon. Friend’s points on capitalism were not totally accepted by those on the Opposition Benches. I think we all concede that capitalism is at times not perfect, but has the alternative ever been shown to work anywhere?
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Richard Quentin Fuller (Conservative, Centre-right): Certainly not, which is why Labour Members are on the Opposition Benches, and the Conservative party, which supports working people, is in government I should like to say a few more words about the detail of the Bill and to support some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury.
Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill — House of Commons, 2021-10-22
Topic: Labor
Anthony Howe Browne (Conservative, Centre-right): The shadow Front-Bench spokesman said earlier that various European countries were ahead of the UK, citing Germany, Spain and Ireland. I actually agree with him—they are ahead of the UK in unemployment. In Ireland, unemployment is 50% higher than in the UK. In France it is twice as high. In Germany it is three times as high. Youth unemployment in Spain is about 30%. It is a real tragedy for young people. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a connection between the flexible labour market and the low unemployment in the UK?