Forum: music.stackexchange.com
Tags: <roman-numerals><functional-harmony>
Title: Trouble reading roman numeral notation with flats
Question: I am working my way through an article on transformations in rock harmony, but I am getting stuck trying to read the author's roman numeral analysis.  I would really appreciate some help understanding how to read flattened roman numerals. Here is an example of what I mean:   Thank you!

Answers:
sents: text: TLDR; a sharp or flat before numeral mean raise or lower the chord root from its normal diatonic spelling In the usual Roman numeral analysis we have these conventions:
text: First we have to give a label for a key like
text: E: for E major or Em: for E minor.
text: Then we have these points... capital numeral means major triad lower case numeral means minor triad 'o' after numeral means diminished triad '7' means a diatonic seventh above root a sharp or flat
text: before numeral mean raise or lower the chord root from its normal diatonic spelling That last rule is the crux of your question.
text: In E major the diatonic chord of the sixth degree is C# minor and gets labelled vi .
text: In E minor the diatonic chord of the sixth degree is C major and gets labelled VI .
text: If the VI from E minor is used in E major the chord root is altered from C# to C natural.
text: (This is called chord borrowing.)
text: When in E major that change in the chord root is made explicit in the Roman numeral figure by using the flat to show the change of chord root: bVI .
text: The reason your book's example is confusing is because the key signature on the staff is E minor, but the analysis key shows E which is read as
text: E major (it should be
text: Em: to mean minor)
text: and then the Roman numeral figures are labeled with flats which makes things seem like the assumed key is E major.
text: Basically the labeling is a mess and it makes confusing the use of sharps and flats on Roman numeral figures.
text: As others point out, the book doesn't even label the chords as 7th chords!
text: The book seems sloppy. @Tim makes a good point that Roman numeral analysis can be tricky with rock music.
text: The real conundrum to me is the final chord.
text: It's an E dominant 7th with a G natural on top.
text: That is a very bluesy sound.
text: It's a very familiar sound, but Roman numerals are a poor way to label it.
text: There is no way to indicate the simultaneous G# and G natural... and the minor 7th.
text: About the only thing the I label gets right is a root on E and a perfect fifth of B .
text: Tread carefully with harmonic analysis of rock music.
text: You might find a lot of inappropriate labels.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/23919/Michael Curtis
score: 6
sents: text: The notation seems a bit confusing.
text: The first chord is a D7 in the key of either E-Major or e-minor; the author isn't quite so clear.
text: The key signature indicates e-minor in which case the chord is VII (no flat needed.)
text: If the author shows keys in ALL CAPS (which has been outdated since 1834), the chord VII7 but that disagrees with the single sharp signature.
text: The author also leaves off the seventh indicator.
text: Perhaps we can assume the author uses E irrespective of Major or minor mode and that he leaves off the seventh.
text: This still leaved the bVII vs VII
text: so it's still still.
text: The (V) must mean the seventh of G. The author shows a descending scale (the caratted numerals above some of the chords)
text: so perhaps that may help.
text: I think he's using the Roman numerals associated with E-Major but the score is written as e-minor; he's assuming that all chords have sevenths (OK, but limiting).
text: Then we have (if the score were in e-minor):
text: VII7, VII7, VII7, VI7, III, VII7, VI7, V7, IM7 (at least as I would notate it.)
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/23838/ttw
score: 3
sents: text: Are you confused because the song's in E minor, but the Roman numeral chord names are relative to E MAJOR?
text: Yes, that's how it works.
text: The numbers only care that E is the tonic.
text: E minor triad is i, E major triad is I.
text: The uppercase Roman number doesn't mean 'diatonic', 'in key' or 'correct', it just means 'major'.
text: Similarly for modified numerals.
text: G is the 'correct' third note of E minor, but G B D is called &flat;III.
text: That's &flat; because G is the flattened 3rd of E major, III because it;s a major triad.
text: G B&flat; D would be &flat;iii.
text: That's &flat; because it's built on the flat 3rd of E major, iii because it's a minor triad.
text: I repeat, these names would be the same whether we were in E major, E minor or E anything-else.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/17003/Laurence Payne
score: 3
sents: text: RNA isn't designed for analysing 'rock' music.
text: It sort of works when non-diatonic chords need naming, as we use 'b' in certain circumstances.
text: As in key E. There is no D and no C, only D# and C#.
text: So, we have to call the D chord bVII and C chord bVI.
text: It gets as close as we can.
text: The bIII represents G, again because there's no G in key E:
text: G# is iii (III) but we need the flattened G#, making G. Thus bIII.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/2808/Tim
score: 2
sents: text: The trouble is: The key sign is G-major/e-minor:
text: (in e-minor the flat should be a natural sign to explain the VI and VII degree are not of the harmonic scale!)
text: Indeed this progression is notated in respect of E-major!
text: D - D - D - C - G - C - D - E
text: If you transpose this figure to C you will understand that the flats are concerning Bb - Bb - Bb - Ab - Eb - Ab - Bb - G - C (with the blue note b10)
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/56219/Albrecht Hügli
score: 2

Summary of the answers:
RNA isn't designed for analysing 'rock' music. It sort of works when non-diatonic chords need naming, as we use 'b' in certain circumstances. As in key E. There is no D and no C, only D# and C#. So, we have to call the D chord bVII and C chord bVI. The bIII represents G, again because there's no G in key E. G# is iii (III) but we need the flattened G#, making G. Thus bIII.
RNA isn't designed for analysing 'rock' music.