Forum: music.stackexchange.com
Tags: <chords><chord-theory>
Title: Specific Roman Numeral naming for chords F and G in key Am
Question: We know that in minor  keys  the 6th and 7th notes can be 'basic' or a semitone higher.  By 'basic', I mean they obey the key signature. So, in key Am, would chords F and G be better portrayed as VI and VII, or as ♭VI and ♭VII respectively?  Or is there a more accurate, less ambiguous way?

Answers:
sents: text: If we need to analyse a work written strictly in Am , I think VI and VII are clear enough.
text: If there is a modulation between Am and A , and we want to keep A as root, I would use ♭VI for F and VI for F# .
text: Same if any modal interchange occurs, e.g.: A F#m F GI vi ♭VI ♭VII
text: Regarding the occurrences of
text: F# and G# as chord roots, it really depends on the context - usually F# would appear in D first inversion (so IV/6 ) or as V/V/V , while G# would be in V/6 or in viio .
text: If both G AND G#dim join the game, I would use VII and #viio respectively.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/35439/moonwave99
score: 5
sents: text: Usage varies.
text: But I'd suggest that the only unambiguous method is to name chords, whether as chord symbols or Roman numerals in relation to the major key.
text: Whether the key is C major or C minor, C,E,G is 'C', C, E♭,G is 'Cm'.
text: Similarly, C,E,G is 'I', C,
text: E♭,G is 'i'.
text: B♭, D, F is '♭VII', B♭, D♭,
text: F is '♭vii'.
text: There will be disagreement about this!
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/17003/Laurence Payne
score: 2
sents: text: I think it's important to remember a vital distinction here: an accidental before the Roman numeral applies to the root of the chord.
text: An accidental after the Roman numeral is figured bass.
text: So in A minor, F major is VI, because F is scale-degree 6 in A minor.
text: Only in A major would we need to clarify this F-major chord as ♭VI (or ♮VI if we want to be really fussy).
text: ♭VI in A minor would actually be F♭ (=
text: E!)
text: major.
text: But neither one of these is to be confused with VI ♯ in A major, which would be an F♯-major chord.
text: Here the accidental applies to the third above the bass, thereby making this a collection of {F♯, A♯, C♯}.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/21766/Richard
score: 2
sents: text: It really depends on the convention one adopts.
text: Some music theory symbols are pretty standard, but one sees variances among textbooks, theorists, and the style they are analyzing.
text: I'd say the most standard pattern in American "classical theory" textbooks of the past 40-50 years is to assume in A minor that VI means F major, VII means G major, and vii o means G♯dim.
text: I've seen some textbooks that tack on a flat or natural to VII (i.e., ♭VII or even ♮VII to accord with the key signature) to refer to G major, but most books probably omit it.
text: In classical theory, a chord on the seventh scale degree is just assumed by default to be built on the subtonic if major and on the leading tone if diminished.
text: However, that assumption may not be true of pop/jazz theory books, where Roman numerals with accidentals are more commonly employed and there are fewer assumptions about the implications and function of Roman numerals.
text: For the sixth degree, VI in minor is just assumed in classical theory to be built on the minor sixth scale degree, so no accidental is necessary.
text: In fact, as Richard points out, putting a flat on it could confuse some people -- though again, I think that's dependent on convention.
text: I'm pretty sure I've seen at last one book (I think in pop or jazz theory)
text: that assumed the major scale was the scale, so any deviation from it was notated with an accidental.
text: Thus ♭VI would be necessary to designate F major in that system for any key or mode based on A.
text: (I'd personally avoid using a symbol like ♭VI in a minor key, to avoid confusion, but again it depends on the convention you're working with.)
text: In the end, I agree with Laurence Payne: if you want to be absolutely clear what chord you're referencing and the specific notes, use a chord symbol (like Fmajor) rather than a Roman numeral.
text: Roman numerals are a shortcut to designate function ( not just label chords, though many people confuse this), and the function of a VI or VII or whatever should be pretty clear from context.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/63809/Athanasius
score: 2
sents: text: I learned the classical way of naming chords and also a more modern way which I prefer where everything is literally spelled out in relation to the root note of the keys regardless of whether it’s major or minor.
text: There are no small letters and all relationships are spelled out like the way intervals are named.
text: Examples:
text: Diatonic major chords: I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIo Eb in the key of either C or Cm:
text: bIII Amaj7 in the key of G or Gm: IImaj7 Em7b5 in the key of D or Dm: IIm7b5 Fmaj7 in the key of E or Em:
text: bIImaj7
text: I prefer this method because there is no doubt as to what the interval from the home key or what the quality of the chord is.
answer_details: author: music.stackexchange.com/users/67196/John Belzaguy
score: 1

Summary of the answers:
 I'd say the most standard pattern in American "classical theory" textbooks of the past 40-50 years is to assume in A minor that VI means F major, VII means G major, and vii o  means G♯dim. While, For the sixth degree, VI in minor is just assumed in classical theory to be built on the minor sixth scale degree, so no accidental is necessary.  
A minor VI means F major, VII means G major, and vii o  means G♯dim.