National Shipper Advisory Committee

Committee Meeting

Minneapolis, Minnesota

August 9, 2023

1:00 pm Central Time

Meeting Minutes

Introduction and Determination of Quorum

Dylan Richmond, the Designated Federal Officer (DFO) for the FMC, called the meeting 

to order and gave notice that the meeting is being recorded. Committee members were 

reminded that antitrust laws apply to them and that they cannot speak on behalf of the 

committee, the FMC, or the federal government outside of an official meeting of the NSAC. 

The DFO confirmed a quorum. 

Remarks from NSAC Leadership

The Committee Chair, Michael Symonanis, thanked NSAC members for their work so far

and for their continuing commitment and support. In the meeting today the Committee will 

review its work so far and will discuss upcoming work the Committee will engage on.

Kenneth O’Brien, Committee Vice Chair, stated there is now a state of calm in the 

industry now compared to the past few years. This should be seen as an opportunity to 

redouble the Committee’s efforts. One question he has considered recently is, are we ready 

for the next disruption? The Vice Chair posited that to take a step back now is the wrong 

thing to do, and that the Committee should press forward with alacrity. He expressed his 

hope for a good discussion in today’s meeting.

NSAC Mission and Focus

The Committee Chair reviewed the mission and focus of the NSAC for the benefit of the 

public. Highlights from his presentation are as follows:

- NSAC membership is made up of 12 importers and 12 exporters, as required by 

Congressional statute.

- Members are mostly from big, well-recognized brands, although contain smaller shippers 

as well.

- The purpose of the Committee is to act solely in an advisory capacity to the FMC on 

policies relating to competitiveness, reliability, integrity, and fairness of the ocean 

shipping supply chain.

- The current focus of the NSAC’s work is on issues within the shipping community 

related to chassis, data, fees and surcharges which has led to the creation of 

subcommittees to discuss each topic.

- The results of the Committee’s work are published on their website: National Shipper 

Advisory Committee - Federal Maritime Commission - Federal Maritime Commission (fmc.gov)
- NSAC is currently scheduled to terminate on September 30th, 2029, per the 

Congressional statute. 

The Chair encouraged members of the public to participate in meetings or send written 

comments to nsac@fmc.gov.

Update from Commissioner Rebecca Dye

Commissioner Dye opened her remarks by sharing appreciation for Mr. O’Brien’s

comments, as she said this is the time to innovate. She stated that today’s problems were not 

caused by COVID, which instead exacerbated the industry’s challenges. Instead, supply chain

bottlenecks have endured because no one supply chain actor owns them. She also emphasized 

her concern that contractual agreements between carriers and shippers cause mutual 

misunderstanding which raises questions about what these documents are worth.

Talking on data and data provisioning, she said much is being discussed in Washington, on 

the NSAC, and by General Lyons’ team. The Commissioner shared that the General would have 

a pilot program coming out soon.

Commissioner Dye discussed her recent proposal to form teams that will develop innovative 

solutions for the industry. She shared that the best team members are often leaders of the 

industry, and that it is best to foster a collaborative environment where everyone discusses issues 

and engage “across the table” as opposed to round table discussions. Her proposal focuses on 

three key issues at port terminals:

1. Empty Container Return

2. Early Return Dates (ERD)

3. Container Pick-up

Commissioner Dye stated that the container return process needs to be clear and predictable. 

According to her, containers should be returned to the terminal from which it was taken, or to 

another location upon mutual agreement between the parties. Otherwise, she noted that sufficient 

notice must be given by the carrier. Commissioner Dye noted that this process was originally 

developed by the New York Motor Carrier community.

Regarding ERDs, she stated that working towards a solution requires clarifying all problems 

around ERDs. Commissioner Dye thanked the Committee for their work in this area.

In responding to comments from NSAC members, Commissioner Dye stated that the items in 

her proposal have to be refined before they can be turned into action. Her plan is to launch pilot 

projects in the ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, and New York-New Jersey in the fall. She 

expects there to be some hiccups with industry participants as they get the process down and 

work out any issues that arise.. She underscored that there is a clear reward for business and 

users for getting this right. 
Commissioner Dye said she would get back to Committee members on what measures 

they and other shippers could take to help the initiative as they consider implementation in the 

future. She reiterated this will take time, as they need to ensure this process works, while 

sympathizing with members of the shipping community who navigate these issues on a daily 

basis. 

Commissioner Dye clarified that her comments today do not represent the Commission 

and are made in her personal capacity. Furthermore, she stated that the FMC is fully focused on

the implementation of Ocean Shipping and Reform Act of 2022, including engaging on multiple 

rulemakings mandated by that legislation. 

Data/Visibility Subcommittee Discussion

Morgan Jackson of the Data/Visibility Subcommittee reviewed the timeline of 

recommendations the Subcommittee has put forward thus far. On the vessel level data 

recommendation, she stated that any data shared regarding the vessel name and estimated arrival 

date must be consistent. Furthermore, for container and intermodal data the focus has been on 

actual versus estimated arrival, when instead reliability of the data is key. 

She stated the Subcommittee is continuing to explore data availability with key providers

and that potential future recommendations may shift to alternate sources of provided data to align 

with findings of the MTDI. They will also review pilot opportunities to align with previous data 

recommendations. 

The NSAC Chair provided further comments to the group on the Subcommittee’s work, 

stating that the group continues to work through feedback on their recommendations received at 

the Q2 2023 meeting to make any recommendations clear. This feedback focused on shifting 

responsibility of ocean carriers in providing certain data to their suppliers if there are delays or 

inconsistencies in the data provided. The group is making sure they hear these comments and 

that they use them to align their continuing work across recommendations and with 

Commissioner Bentzel’s MTDI project to ensure they meet the needs of all the nation’s shippers.

Fees/Surcharges Subcommittee Discussion

The Subcommittee Chair, Rich Roche, reviewed the progress and status of the 

Subcommittee and their recommendations thus far. He noted that the NSAC submitted 

comments on the FMC’s Notice of Proposed Rulemaking regarding detention and demurrage, 

suggesting the FMC tweak the definition of demurrage to include all land storage, and that they 

compel rail operators to invoice ocean carriers directly as the properly contracted party. These 

recommendations were passed in the prior NSAC meeting and submitted to the Commission 

following that meeting.

The NSAC Chair asked the Subcommittee what else they are currently contemplating in 

terms of potential future recommendations while they wait for clarity from the FMC. In 

response, Mr. Roche stated that they are waiting to see which way the FMC goes on the 

recommendations. He further stated that these issues have been a thorn in the side of the shipping 
public and addressing them would go a long way towards removing charges that do not 

incentivize the free movement of cargo. The subccommittee, for now, continues to focus on fees 

and surcharges. One area they may look at is premium surcharges to get one’s cargo back on the 

ship.

Chassis Subcommittee Discussion

Debb Minskey from the Chassis Subcommittee shared that the group continues to hold 

discussions with stakeholders about export chassis at rail providers. This is expected to continue 

over the next few weeks as the Subcommittee continues their fact finding before formulating any 

potential recommendations. 

Other Committee Considerations

In final comments Mr. Symonanis stated that as the Committee moves into 2024, they 

want to ensure optimal efficiency. Members want to ensure a clear path forward for the 

Committee and assume that their work is appropriately divided among the members. At the same 

time members want to ensure the Committee continues performing at a high level as there is 

some turnover in membership. The goal of the NSAC is not simply to put out recommendations 

each meeting, these should be done judiciously. He recognized all the work that has been done 

thus far on key issues and everyone’s commitment to the work which has culminated in the eight

recommendations put forward by the Committee. The Chair appealed to the public, asking for 

their comment as the Committee looks to the next steps in their work. 

Mr. Symonanis reminded everyone that the Q4 2023 meeting is targeted for midNovember, and will take place in Washington, D.C. Members of the public were thanked for 

their participation at the last D.C. meeting.

Mr. O’Brien highlighted a key take away from Commissioner Dye’s comments, that there 

is no jurisdiction for the FMC over rail demurrage. He noted that the STB has said something 

similar. This situation does not make either the FMC or STB bad, but he believes that it is 

wrong. He noted that this is a blind spot in the system which the Committee has brought to light, 

and that Congress should rectify it. Additionally, shippers are facing issues ahead with charges 

from third parties with whom shippers have no contractual relationship, such as clean cargo fees. 

These issues may come up in future discussions. 

Public Comment Period

No commentors from the public were present at the meeting. The DFO stated that no 

comments can be taken virtually during the meeting, and no emailed comments were received 

prior to the meeting.

Closing Remarks

Mr. Symonanis acknowledged the challenge of the work done on the issues addressed by 

the Committee given their complexity and speed with which they have been addressed. In the 
past 14 months, the Committee has put forward eight recommendations which are very focused 

and deliberate in dealing with the long-standing issues faced by the ocean transportation system. 

He stated that while the Committee may not always have a recommendation to put forward to the 

FMC, the group should stay focused and open to dialogue from other members that are a part of 

the ocean supply chain. The Chair thanked everyone for their long-term commitment to the work 

of NSAC. 

The Committee Chair thanked NSAC member Scott Fremont and Target for hosting 

today’s meeting and then concluded the meeting.