FEDERAL MARITIME COMMISSION

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 NATIONAL SHIPPER ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 Case No. FMC-17-G-0015-0001

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 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2021

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 The meeting of the Federal Maritime

 Commission convened remotely via teleconference,

 pursuant to notice at 1:00 p.m., Daniel B. Maffei,

 Chairman, presiding.

 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:

 DANIEL B. MAFFEI, Chairman

 CARL BENTZEL, Commissioner

 REBECCA F. DYE, Commissioner

 MICHAEL A. KHOURI, Commissioner

 LOUIS E. SOLA, Commissioner

 STAFF PRESENT:

 DYLAN RICHMOND, Designated Federal Officer

 NSAC COMMITTEE MEMBERS:

 BRIAN BUMPASS, Brenntag North America,

 Inc., Chair

 MIKE SYMONANIS, Louis Dreyfus, Vice Chair
 PARTCICPANTS (CONT'D):

 BOB CONNOR, Mallory Alexander

 International Logistics

 MICHAEL BROCK, Walmart

 JUSTIN CAULEY, CHS Inc.

 CHRIS CRUTCHFIELD, American Commodity

 Company

 RICK DIMAIO, Office Depot

 SCOTT FREMONT, Target

 SEAN HEALY, Scoular Company

 STEVEN HUGHES, MEMA/Auto Care Association

 ALEXIS JACOBSON, BOSSCO Trading

 FERNANDO LAGONELL, DuPont

 ALISON LEAVITT, Wine and Spirits Shippers

 Association

 DANIEL MILLER, Cargill

 DEBB MINSKEY, IKEA

 JENNIFER MORRISSEY, Ocean Spray

 Cranberries

 KENNETH O'BRIEN, Gemini Shippers Group

 ADNAN QADRI, Amazon

 RICHARD ROCHE, Mohawk Global Logistics

 GABRIEL RODRIGUEZ, A Customs Brokerage

 RANDY STRAIT, Tyson Foods
 PARTCICPANTS (CONT'D):

 JOSHUA WOODS, Blue Diamond Growers

 COLIN YANKEE, Tractor Supply Company

 * * * * *
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 C O N T E N T S

 Item Page

 Introduction

 Dylan Richmond, DFO, FMC

 Remarks from the Federal Maritime Commission

 Leadership:

 Commissioner Rebecca Dye

 Commissioner Carl Bentzel

 Chairman Daniel Maffei

 DFO Remarks

 Committee Member Introductions

 Election of Chair and Vice Chair

 Roundtable Discussion

 Closing Remarks, Chair

 Adjournment

 * * * * *
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 P R O C E E D I N G S

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. I think we

 are going to go ahead and get started this

 afternoon. There might be a few folks still

 joining, but, like, we have a quorum of the

 committee. And we also have some of the

 commissioners on the line as well.

 I want to thank you for attending

 today's first meeting of the National Shipper

 Advisory Committee. My name is Dylan Richmond,

 and I'm the designated federal officer for this

 committee. The agency is excited to see the

 committee get to its work and provide advice to

 the agency. There has been a lot of interest in

 the international ocean shipping recently, and the

 timing for this committee certainly had been

 fortuitous.

 We have a few requests for participants

 before getting started. Please mute your

 microphones and keep your video off, if you're not

 a committee member or Commissioner. The only

 people allowed to speak or be on the screen during
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 today's meeting are the committee members, the

 commissioners or their designees, and the

 designated federal officer. The meeting hosts

 reserve the right to remove people who are

 disruptive to the meeting. If participants have

 any issues, you should be able to chat the meeting

 hosts in the bottom right. Today's meeting is

 being recorded by a court reporter, and minutes

 will be developed from the recording and notes

 taken by FMC staff.

 We have a packed agenda this afternoon.

 First, the committee will hear remarks from each

 of the commissioners. Then I will provide a brief

 overview of my role as DFO, how the Commission

 intends to engage with the committee, and some

 important bylaws for the committee members. After

 that, we will have the committee members introduce

 themselves, followed by the announcement of the

 chair and vice chair. We will then have a short

 10-minute break before reconvening for a

 roundtable discussion of the committee on topics

 that are of interest to both the committee and the
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 Commission.

 Being at this point, I would like to

 turn it over to Chairman Maffei to begin the

 Commissioner remarks.

 CHAIRMAN MAFFEI: Okay. Thank you very

 much. And it's good to see so many familiar

 faces, but also good to see a few new people that

 I have not had a chance to meet. I am very, very

 pleased to be here as it marks an important

 milestone, but I really want to give credit where

 credit is due, and that's to Commissioner Rebecca

 Dye, who has proposed gathering the shippers in

 this way to provide input for the international

 freight delivery system. She's advocated this for

 many years, and it, in fact, was part of her

 interim recommendations in Fact Finding 28 way

 back in 2018. Anyway, as time has passed, of

 course, the need for this group has only

 escalated, proving how prescient and wise

 Commissioner Dye is.

 So, I would ask that the meeting

 organizers come back to me -- Dylan, if you could
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 come back to me after Commissioner Bentzel, but I

 want to get right to Commissioner Dye because this

 is really due to a lot of her work and thought.

 So, let me yield to her first.

 MR. RICHMOND: Commissioner Dye?

 COMMISSIONER DYE: Thank you very much,

 Chairman Maffei. I have long advocated for a

 board of this type as -- to act as advisors to the

 FMC, and I'm delighted that this meeting can be

 held today. Thanks to our supporters and the

 House of Representatives and the Senate for

 propelling this board forward. I know many of you

 from your participation on FMC innovation teams,

 and many of your companies as well. And I very

 much appreciate that.

 Now that we're able to travel, some

 people are planning to come to the FMC soon for

 what I'm calling many teams on a couple of very

 specific topics that we identified last year.

 I'll keep you involved and informed as we progress

 with those.

 I'm planning to recommend to the
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 Commission that we form also an FMC ocean carrier

 and marine terminal and ports advisory board, and

 perhaps a certain of your subcommittees may wish

 to meet with that board when we get it stood up, I

 will say ambitiously.

 So, thank you for your willingness to

 serve. Right now, we need fresh, broader

 perspectives on the freight delivery system and

 other issues. I very much look forward to working

 with you. Thank you again. Good day.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Commissioner.

 I believe Commissioner Khouri is not with us

 today, but I believe he has some remarks that were

 going to be delivered.

 SPEAKER: Entered into the record.

 MR. RICHMOND: Entered into the record.

 And so, we will share those with the committee

 afterwards and include them in the minutes.

 And I believe Commissioner Sola is

 traveling today and is not on the call.

 Assuming that's the case, Commissioner

 Bentzel, are you there?
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 COMMISSIONER BENTZEL: Hi, Dylan. I'm

 here.

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. Thank you.

 Please go ahead.

 COMMISSIONER BENTZEL: I just wanted to

 thank -- I know many of you -- many of the

 shippers on the Advisory Committee, and I look

 forward to meeting the others as we go through

 this process. I think it's critically important

 to consider these issues at this point of this

 juncture where our nation is suffering with the --

 wrestling with the problems that we have on ocean

 shipping. As you move forward, your authorities

 under the committee are those of your own, and so

 your judgment on what you want to do and what you

 want to pursue is that of yours. I will be

 working and listening and coordinating with your

 advisory committee. I look forward to all of the

 recommendations that you'd make. I'm very

 supportive of this effort. I think it's something

 that we've long overdue.

 And I'd echo the comments of the
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 Chairman with respect to Commissioner Dye's

 efforts to get this set up. And I also agree with

 her proposal to establish a separate advisory

 committee. And I think that this is the template.

 I hope this is the committee that can show us the

 way in how we can do this and how we can use this

 productively to come up with the better system of

 regulating motion shipping.

 I would urge -- actually, there's a lot

 of interest out there publicly on this committee

 -- the Shipper Advisory Committee was on the phone

 with someone today -- that's not on the Advisory

 Committee. So, as you move forward, I would

 recommend that you think of a way to incorporate

 broader views, the broader views of shipper

 communities out there. There's a lot of interest.

 There's a lot of willingness to provide input.

 And so, I think it's worthwhile to solicit this

 wider selection of views and recommendations as

 possible.

 But I just wanted to thank you for your

 service. This is a very -- in my view, a very
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 honorable assignment and something that I hope

 will be something -- as you look back in your

 career, it's something that you'll look as a mark

 of distinction.

 So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I'll turn

 it back over to you. But good luck going forward,

 and I look forward to working with you.

 CHAIRMAN MAFFEI: Thank you very much,

 Commissioner Bentzel. And thank you to

 Commissioner Dye, who is usually modest and not

 claiming credit for this, but she worked so hard.

 And I too like Commissioner Bentzel's support of

 the concept.

 I also want to say that Commissioner

 Khouri and Commissioner Sola both have statements

 for the record. But they also wanted me to just

 thank you on their behalf for your service.

 And, you know, I don't -- look, we are

 five independent commissioners, all independently

 appointed for periods of -- a term that doesn't

 change with the change in the White House.

 Nonetheless, I know I can speak for all five of
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 us, former Chairman Khouri, Commissioner Sola, and

 of course, you've already heard from Commissioners

 Dye and Bentzel. So, I'll speak for all five of

 us in saying that all five of us, you have

 complete buy-in from us, and that I think is

 important. You know, we all want to give you the

 autonomy you need, but also we're all interested

 in your work and where that will lead.

 I do want to note that I am extremely

 grateful to the efforts of the FMC staff to get

 this committee up. I won't, you know, single out

 particular people, but obviously, the Office of

 the Secretary is -- was absolutely key in this and

 some people from the Office of the Chairman as

 well. Although this group's inception was

 envisioned and authorized well before the current

 supply chain crisis, it is a tool that we

 certainly need as we look for ways to help the

 industry move forward in a productive way.

 When the Commission met earlier this

 month, I shared some broad suggestion discussion

 topics with the committee, and I've also shared a
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 detailed list with Mr. Richmond and with the FMC

 team supporting the committee, and as some of my

 colleagues as well.

 My hope is that these are conversation

 starters and none of this should be seen as, you

 know, a prescription of what you must do. But I

 do hope that these are conversation starters that

 will help the committee focus on some of the

 crucial challenges that are not only with us

 today, but have been historically very difficult

 to solve. In particular, I'm asking you to look

 at what's necessary to increase cargo fluidity

 through technology and data sharing. I'm looking

 for an honest discussion of fees. What's

 outrageous? What's tolerable? What may even be

 important to keep cargo flowing, what the

 Commission can do, and some feedback on whether

 the Commission's actions so far are making a

 difference, particularly in regard to detention

 and demurrage charges. We'd love some ideas on

 service contract, that procedure, and how that

 could be reformed in a way that could be
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 beneficial. I'm looking for how the Federal

 Maritime Commission can address gaps in knowledge

 of shippers through seminars or other kind of

 outreach, or maybe something we haven't even

 thought of yet.

 And then finally, how actions of other

 federal agencies might be harming or might be able

 to help. One of the things that we've tried to

 do, and that I will say the administration -- the

 Biden administration has been very supportive of,

 is reaching out to other independent commissions,

 like the Surface Transportation Board, but also

 other piece or parts of the government, like the

 Department of Transportation. And so, it would be

 helpful if you did some thinking on that.

 I've said it many, many times before,

 and I'll say it again now. Increasing our

 understanding and the cooperation to get through

 the current disruption in the industry is

 extraordinarily important. It's always tempting

 to demonize a particular sector, and, you know,

 sometimes the ocean carriers or the terminal
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 operators or anyone will get that. But I think if

 we really want to see positive change, we must all

 be prepared to come to the table to work together

 and to work with others through the industry. And

 that is what I think this committee can be a great

 catalyst for.

 So, again, I want to thank you for your

 service, particularly given how much you're paid.

 No one is paid anything for this, so you didn't

 miss a memo. And I want to thank you for your

 time. I truly believe this is an important

 endeavor.

 Back to you, Dylan. I feel like I'm

 back in broadcast news. Back to you, Dylan.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman

 and commissioners for your remarks.

 All right. So, I would like to provide

 some brief remarks on the role of the designated

 federal officer or the DFO, how the Commission

 intends to engage with the committee, and some

 bylaws for the Committee members.

 This is the Commission's sole federal
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 advisory committee currently, so I thought it

 might be a good idea to sort of lay out some of

 these ground rules that apply to federal advisory

 committees. Like the commissioners, I want to

 emphasize that the committee is ultimately

 responsible for its work and what ideas it

 pursues.

 The designated federal officer, also

 known as the DFO, is a role that is required under

 the Federal Advisory Committee Act. It operates

 as the primary liaison between the agency and the

 committee. This role is primarily administrative

 in nature, but it does include some important

 responsibilities as it relates to the committee's

 business. The DFO is responsible for calling

 meetings of the committee. And the DFO must be in

 attendance at each and every committee meeting.

 And it also will adjourn committee meetings.

 Along with calling the meetings, the DFO

 must approve the agenda before any full committee

 meeting. However, it is our intention for the

 chair and vice chair to be the ones primarily
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 responsible for setting the agenda. I will be in

 touch with the agency leadership as agendas are

 developed to gather any input they may have and

 keep them informed of the committee's activities.

 If the committee chooses to form subcommittees to

 conduct its work, those must be approved by the

 DFO and meetings intended by the DFO or an

 alternate DFO.

 There are also other duties for the DFO

 to ensure efficient operations of the committee:

 Proper recordkeeping and compliance with Federal

 Advisory Committee Act regulations.

 The Commission will turn to the

 committee for advice and then expertise, but the

 committee is not limited to only taking taskings

 from the Commission. The chair and vice chair

 will play a very important role in guiding the

 committee's discussion and scope of work.

 At this point, I would like to go over a

 few important bylaws for committee members. These

 will be circulated to the committee shortly after

 the meeting. Membership of the committee balances
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 many aspects and viewpoints of the international

 ocean freight delivery industry. Therefore,

 member attendance and participation at meetings is

 vital. Members are expected to adequately prepare

 for, attend, and meaningfully participate at

 meetings.

 Members may not use their access to the

 federal government as a member of this committee

 for the purpose of soliciting business or

 otherwise seeking economic advantage for

 themselves or their companies or employer.

 The committee as a whole may advise the

 Commission on legislation or recommend legislative

 action, but in their capacity as committee

 members, individual members must not petition or

 lobby Congress for or against particular

 legislation or encourage others to do so. Members

 of the Committee are advisors to the Commission

 and have no authority to speak for the committee

 outside the committee structure. Members of the

 committee have no authority to speak for the

 Commission or the U.S. government. And members
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 cannot testify before Congress in their capacity

 as a member of the committee. The Commission will

 soon be adopting bylaws for the committee's use,

 and you guys will see this in writing shortly.

 I think at this point that concludes

 what I would like to say. I want to start turning

 it over to the committee and have them introduce

 themselves. We are actually somewhat ahead of

 schedule, so committee members, your introductions

 can be a little longer than I indicated.

 But the first one I would like to call

 is -- I'm going to go in alphabetical order by

 last name. It's Michael Brock from Walmart.

 MR. BROCK: Yeah, thanks, Dylan. So,

 Michael Brock here. I've been with Walmart for

 about 24 years in a variety of supply chain roles,

 and first time on the global side over a year ago.

 So, my first experience with this global side of

 the supply chain has been over the last year, so

 it's been an exciting one, to say the least. But,

 you know -- and I've spent time on the inventory

 side. I've spent time on the transportation,
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 domestic side. I've spent time on the

 distribution side throughout my 24 years. And

 then obviously the last year, from origin all the

 way through destination. And I've got

 responsibility to deliver to our regional DCs that

 are within 100 miles of our stores for the most

 part.

 But really excited to be on the advisory

 board and support this initiative to help us move

 forward.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Michael. Next

 up is Brian Bumpass of Brenntag North America.

 MR. BUMPASS: Hi, everybody. Thank you

 for having us today and for inviting us to be on

 this committee. As Dylan just indicated, my name

 is Brian Bumpass. I'm the director of Logistics

 and Transportation for Brenntag North America,

 which is the North American subsidiary of Brenntag

 AG, one of the largest chemical distributors

 globally.

 I've been with Brenntag since 2012. And

 my responsibilities include the management of all
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 international trade, import and export, as well as

 trade compliance. And in addition to that, the

 domestic spend that we have, not including our

 private fleet, so that would cover both tanker

 trucks, full truckload, less than truckload, any

 sort of flatbeds, and project cargo that we have

 moving as well.

 Before that, I was an export sales

 representative with Evergreen Line. And actually,

 I served Gabriel's account for a while down in

 Miami, so it's good to see a familiar face in this

 group.

 Anyway, thank you so much again, and I

 look forward to working with these guys in hopes

 of, you know, moving forward into a positive

 direction.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Brian. Next

 we have Justin Cauley with CHS.

 MR. CAULEY: Thanks, Dylan. So, I'm

 Justin Cauley. I'm the director of Transportation

 at CHS Inc. CHS Inc. is the nation's largest

 farmer-owned cooperative.
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 I graduated in ag business from the

 University of Illinois. And I started my career

 selling commodities internationally in containers.

 I came to CHS about eight years ago to build a

 container export program. I have since now moved

 to oversee all transportation at CHS that includes

 ocean vessels, barges, rail. In addition to this,

 I served on the Surface Transportation Board,

 National Car Council. I currently live in St.

 Paul, Minnesota, and I'll be graduating with my

 MBA from the University of Minnesota at the end of

 this year.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Justin. Next is

 Bob Connor with Mallory Alexander.

 MR. CONNOR: Thank you, Dylan. I will

 come in under a minute.

 I started my career in the ocean

 transportation industry in 1978 with United States

 Lines. At that time, Malcolm McLean was the owner

 of the U.S. Lines. And for all of you who may not

 recognize that name, he is the individual credited

 with really being the founder of container
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 shipping.

 In my 40-year career in the industry, I

 spent half of it on the carrier side, and the

 second half of it on the forwarding and the

 international logistics side. While a carrier, I

 had the opportunity to work with some real

 industry pioneers, such as Don Aldridge, Jacques

 Saadé at CMA, Hapag, and Senator Line. And during

 my career, I had the opportunity to be the

 president of Senator Line for a few years. And

 also, I was the president of Hamilton Terminal

 Company, which is a subsidiary of Hapag-Lloyd,

 responsible for providing M&R services to the

 chassis and container industry, as well as to

 offering the significant container drayage

 operation. During my 20-year career on the

 carrier side, I would advise that unfortunately

 during those years, most of the carriers generally

 lost money.

 In 1999, I left the carrier side to go

 to what has my (inaudible) college referred to, to

 go to the dark side and work for -- in the
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 floating industry in the area of ocean

 transportation procurement.

 Currently, I'm most fortunate to be part

 of Mallory Alexander International Logistics.

 We're a 100-year-old company owned by the Mallory

 family. And we are arguably the largest

 international and foreign warehousing distribution

 company in the ag export market. Combined with

 the thousands of containers that Mallory moves

 under its NBO banner, the Mallory transportation

 systems, the company is ranked as one of the top

 companies in the world.

 During my entire career of 40 years, I

 have never seen conditions that we experienced

 today, and it's my sincere hope that our community

 will have the positive influence to develop

 constructive, but not overreactive change to

 shipping regulations as contained under the Ostra

'21 Initiative.

 Finally, I'd like to make a few quick

 thank you's. I'd like to thank the Mallory family

 for their commitment to the industry and giving me
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 the time to participate in the unset group. I'd

 like to thank the Board of Governors of the New

 York/New Jersey Forwarders and Brokers

 Association, colleagues of mine for their

 nomination to participate in the committee. I'd

 like to thank Chairman Maffei and the other FMC

 commissioners for including me as part of NSAC.

 And finally, I would like to extend a special

 thanks to former Chairman Michael Khouri and

 Commissioner Rebecca Dye for the opportunity to

 have worked with them in the past on other

 projects.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Bob. So, next up

 is Chris Crutchfield with American Commodity

 Company.

 MR. CRUTCHFIELD: Hello, everyone. I'm

 excited to be here with you today.

 My name is Chris Crutchfield with ACC

 Rice in Williams, California, in Northern

 California. We're a soup- to-nuts rice company.

 My partners and I produce rice. And we have

 drying and storage facilities, as well as milling,
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 packaging, marketing, shipping side of things. I

 -- along with being CEO of the company, I handle

 all of the marketing and sales and shipping and

 logistics side of things. We do a little over

 100,000 tons of rice in the export market every

 year. Most of that goes to the Port of Oakland in

 containers. Some of it goes through Sacramento

 and Stockton and Breakbulk.

 But, yeah, seriously, I'm struggling

 with the times these days, and I look forward to

 working with all of you and coming up with some

 solutions and trying to figure out some ways to

 make agricultural commodities move out of the

 United States in a more effective and efficient

 way. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Chris. Next

 is Rick DiMaio with Office Depot.

 MR. DIMAIO: Hi, everybody. Thanks for

 including me in this important effort. I'm

 thrilled to be on this team and meet and work with

 many of the people that are on the call today. I

 am the senior vice president of Supply Chain for
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 Office Depot. I've been there about 10 years.

 I've got responsibility for all the strategy and

 execution in supply chain.

 Prior to that, I spent 23 years doing

 the exact same thing for Sears and Kmart. That

 Sears logistics services were around that

 organization, and it's a third party arm as well.

 I've had sea freight experience, international

 shipping experience in both companies.

 And I too echo some of the sentiment

 that I heard earlier, some of the introductions

 about never having a bigger challenge in this

 space than we see right now, so I'm thrilled to be

 part of this. And thank everybody for the

 opportunity.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Rick. Next up is

 Scott Fremont with Target.

 MR. FREMONT: Thank you, Dylan. And

 thank you to the Chairman and commissioners for

 establishing the group of shippers here to help

 support such a vital part of our country's

 economy.
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 Scott Fremont. I'm the vice president

 of Transportation for Target. This includes our

 international logistics, global trade services,

 domestic inbound transportation, and then all of

 our domestic outbound transportation to our

 stores. I've been at Target for 15 years.

 Various roles, including ecommerce, merchandising,

 and inventory management. I'm excited to

 represent Target and looking forward to working

 with this committee in helping to co-create some

 solutions to help drive changes across our supply

 chain. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Next is Sean

 Healy with Scoular.

 MR. HEALY: Hi, good afternoon. My name

 is Sean Healy. I'm the director of Ocean Freight

 for the Scoular Company. Scoular is a

 130-year-old agri commodities trading company.

 We're headquartered in Omaha, Nebraska. I'm based

 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We ship about 140,000

 TEUs annually globally. The majority of that

 volume is exported volume from United States
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 primarily to Asia. And, you know, it's animal

 feed, it's grain. It's some food items as well.

 I previously served on Commissioner

 Dye's export -- supply chain innovation team, as

 well as Fact Finding number 29. I also served on

 (inaudible) advisory board, as well as the New

 York Shipping Exchange member council.

 And I just look forward to working with

 all of you, and I'm happy to be here.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Sean. Next, we

 have Steve Hughes, who represents MEMA and the

 Auto Care Association.

 MR. HUGHES: Good morning and/or good

 afternoon, everyone. Thank you very much for

 allowing me to join this Commission or this

 advisory committee. Its work couldn't be -- or

 its - starting in this committee couldn't come at

 a more important time in the supply chain

 disruption. I think it's a kind word to describe

 what we're going through right now.

 My background is I've been in the

 automotive parts industry my whole career. I
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 started back in the early '70s parts store and

 ended up getting recruited to become purchasing

 and supply chain management at one of the largest

 importers in the United States in the automotive

 aftermarket.

 Throughout my career, I've been involved

 in the international logistics purchasing, so I

 have experience on -- a significant experience on

 the purchasing side. But then in about 2014 when

 we started having labor issues or discussions that

 is on the West Coast, and we had some issues

 similar to what we're seeing today, although not

 quite as bad, our industry reached out to me to

 supply them with information of what was going on,

 because our industry just had a blind side, if you

 will, to ocean freight and the various issues that

 we were seeing. Since then, I've been an advisor

 to both our major trade associations, the Auto

 Care Association and the Motor and Equipment

 Manufacturers Association. And I'm very honored

 to have them nominate me to represent them on this

 committee.
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 So, one of the things that I would hope

 we accomplish here is making sure we break out of

 our individual silos and look at the overall

 scheme of things and work towards the greater good

 and try not to be too self-centered, if you will.

 Given the makeup of this committee, I don't think

 that's going to be a problem.

 But again, thank you very much to the

 FMC and the commissioners and the Chairman for

 inviting me to participate in this committee.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Steve. Next, we

 have Alexis Jacobson representing the BOSSCO

 Trading.

 MS. JACOBSON: Hi, everyone. And thank

 you for the FMC and the commissioners for inviting

 me to be a part of this committee. My name is

 Alexis Jacobson. I am the international accounts

 manager at BOSSCO Trading. We are a smaller

 forage exporters. We mostly export grass straw, a

 little bit of hay sometimes, to Asia, located in

 Tangent, Oregon, which is about an hour and a half

 south of Portland, because most people are not
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 going to know where Tangent, Oregon is.

 I started with the company five years

 ago, and we have seen the challenges just rise and

 rise. And I am very thankful that ITC and the

 U.S. Forage Export Council pushed me to run for

 this committee or to be on the committee, and I

 look forward to working with the import and export

 side to work through some solutions that we all

 could use. So, thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Alexis. Next

 is Fernando Lagonell with DuPont.

 MR. LAGONELL: Hello, everyone. Good

 afternoon. My name is Fernando Lagonell. I'm the

 global category leader for DuPont. I've been in

 the industry for about 25 years, the last seven

 years with DuPont, and I have responsibilities for

 all the procurement strategy for global ocean,

 air, freight forwarding and custom house

 brokerage. I'm located in Wilmington, Delaware,

 in our global headquarters, which is about 5 miles

 from President Biden's home here in Delaware.

 So, it's my honor to serve in this
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 Commission and committee. And again, good luck to

 everyone. I think we're all feeling the pain of

 what's happening today, and we're all eager to put

 solutions forward to change the environment

 without worrying. So, thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Next is

 Alison Leavitt from the Wine and Spirits Shippers

 Association.

 MS. LEAVITT: Hi, everyone. And I echo

 the sentiments. Thank you all for allowing me to

 serve on this committee. I really look forward to

 working with everybody. I know quite a few of you

 or at least met quite a few of you.

 As mentioned, I'm Alison Leavitt. I

 have been the managing director of the Wine and

 Spirits Shipping Association for the last eight

 years. I definitely have the best commodity of

 all the groups. So, when we go live, hopefully, I

 will bring you all samples. But we have about 700

 members representing primarily import, but also

 export from the U.S.A., as well as cross trade,

 and the members as small as the kind of companies
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 that just bring in a few pallets of the -- you

 know, the most expensive French Bordeaux to the

 companies that have thousands of containers of the

 grocery store type wine that you'd see in Whole

 Foods, Trader Joe's, et cetera.

 So, I've been in the business --

 logistics business forever. My ancestors were sea

 captains. My family had a shipping agency. I

 grew up boarding vessels. And so, as they say it,

 it is in the blood. It's always been a part of my

 life. And like everyone else, I've never quite

 seen it as bad as this.

 We at WWSA manage 24 contracts right

 now, with virtually every single steamship line.

 Some of them global. Some of them regional. So,

 we -- I usually spend much more of my time

 overseas working directly with the carrier. So,

 certainly service contracts are something, you

 know, I'm looking forward to talking about, as

 well as all the other points that the Chairman has

 outlined for us.

 So, I live up in Portland, Maine, a
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 beautiful place to live. And in my spare time, I

 like to go out on, you know, 20-mile runs and swim

 in the ocean and ski in the mountains. So, I live

 in a great place for that.

 And again, I look forward to working

 with all of you. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: It's not quite 20 miles,

 but it's awesome. All right. Next is Dan Miller

 with Cargill.

 MR. MILLER: Hello, everybody. Dan

 Miller. I am the global lead for the

 international transportation activities for

 Cargill. In this role, I support global container

 sourcing activities, air, LCL, dredge. Globally,

 we ship about 350,000 TEU. From North America,

 we're exporting with all the conglomerates.

 Together, it's about 90,000 TEU exported.

 At Cargill, we were a large food ag

 company. It's about 156 years old. We produce

 anything from food ingredients. We export beef,

 poultry, cotton, bio industrial products that we

 use in asphalt or biodegradable plastics.
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 Prior to working at Cargill, I spent a

 little time with Archer Daniels Midland Company,

 again, in a very similar role, primarily in the

 international side of things. The introduction to

 me getting into the international space was in

 2002 in -- right as the port strike was happening.

 So, that was my introduction to this industry and,

 you know, kind of learning in a similar

 environment to where we're at right now.

 The sentiment is with everybody here. I

 think we're all trying to accomplish the same

 thing. We all see the obstacles. I think we've

 got a lot of great experience that we can all

 bounce a lot of great ideas off of one another.

 And, you know, I'm here to listen, collaborate,

 and truly appreciate the opportunity to support

 the team and everybody here.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Dan. Next on

 the list is Debb Minskey with IKEA.

 MS. MINSKEY: Good day, everyone. I'm

 going to echo what we've heard, quite a bit is a

 much appreciation and a thank you for being asked
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 to be on this committee. I think it's a wonderful

 opportunity. I've been with IKEA for 16 years.

 Of that 16 years, about 12 in ocean

 transportation.

 I started out in our distribution center

 in Maryland. I started working in transportation

 actually when I was there. I'm working more on

 the land side and our exports to our stores. I

 went actually back to school for transportation

 and logistics management, fell in love with the

 ocean, and the opportunity came about within Ikea,

 which I applied for and was able to get.

 Since then, my main focus has been on

 the operation side as a receiving unit. But we

 are set up as being in charge of all the America,

 so we do also work directly with our exports out

 of South America and some from the U.S. as well to

 Dominican. I've spent a lot of time with pretty

 much every port terminal in the U.S. and some

 Canada, learning their operations, working

 directly with ocean carriers on how we can improve

 things. And obviously, we still have many gaps.
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 And it's a new era for our industry, and we need

 to catch up with some things. So, I look forward

 to being one of the pioneers and leaders with this

 group to do just that. Thank you again.

 MR. RICHMOND: Great. Thank you, Debb.

 Next is Jen Morrissey with Ocean Spray

 Cranberries.

 MS. MORRISSEY: Thank you, and good

 afternoon. I really appreciate the opportunity to

 serve here in this distinguished panel. Great

 experience across the board.

 I have been in the industry managing

 ocean transportation for 17 years, split evenly

 between Ocean Spray and TJX. I'm currently in the

 capacity of head of international transportation

 and global customer operations for Ocean Spray

 Cranberries. I do possess a U.S. Customs brokers

 license and previously was in a similar capacity

 with TJX, so I understand both perspectives. And

 I really look forward to hearing from my peers on

 the team and the commissioners and Chairman of the

 FMC. Thank you all.
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 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Jen. Next, we

 have Ken O'Brien with Gemini Shippers Group.

 MR. O'BRIEN: Good afternoon, everyone.

 I'm Ken O'Brien. Today, I serve as president of

 Gemini Shippers Group. Gemini is a shippers

 association based in New York City. The company

 actually has -- the group has a history going back

 about 100 years, primarily driven by the fashion

 and apparel industry and became a shippers

 association in 1985 right after the Shipping Act

 changed. Today, we have around 300 members spread

 over all different commodities, so we're not

 vertical or commodity-specific.

 Prior to joining Gemini, I spent over

 years on the carrier side. And so, I worked for

 two different ocean carriers, primarily all in

 pricing and trade roles. And so, I've had, you

 know, different opportunities to interact with the

 Commission as a carrier, and certainly also I was

 part of the supply chain innovation team and the

 Fact Finding 29 team.

 And I think the important part, you
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 know, as I -- as we go into this, and the part I'm

 thinking about is -- you know, the Chairman talked

 about, you know, the -- there's a tendency to put

 blame and try and assess blame when there's things

 like this and disruption like this happens. And I

 think the only way to prevent that is really to

 have an honest and open discussion about what, A,

 identifying problems, and B, then getting at what

 is tactically possible to fix it in the short term

 and then strategically what's ultimately wrong

 with the system that, you know, different actors

 can potentially change to make the entire system

 better. And so, I'm excited to work with everyone

 in the group and hopefully come up with some good

 suggestions. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Ken. Next, we

 have Adnan Qadri with Amazon.

 MR. QADRI: Hi. First of all, I want to

 thank the commissioners and the FMC for pulling --

 giving me the opportunity to be on this

 Commission. I'm looking forward to all the work

 that we can do to kind of help improve the overall
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 supply chain and some of the challenges that

 everyone's facing right now.

 I've been with Amazon slightly -- I've

 been with Amazon closely for eight years now. My

 current role is focused on material planning and

 network design and strategy for the imports

 business. But previously, I was managing all of

 the operations for North America and Europe on the

 input side of things.

 Before that, I've spent about eight

 years working for APL Logistics on their liner

 side of things, primarily most of the time spent

 in the U.S., along with the stint based out of

 Singapore running some of the operations in Asia.

 I'm looking forward to working with

 everyone and hoping we can kind of solve some of

 the challenges that are ahead of us.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Adnan. Next

 is Rich Roche with Mohawk Global Logistics.

 MR. ROCHE: Thanks, Dylan. Yes. Rich

 Roche. I'm vice president at Mohawk Global

 Logistics. We're a company of about nine offices,
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 260 employees in the -- mostly the Northeast, as

 far west of Chicago and south of Atlanta, NVO

 customs broker and consulting, domestic trucking.

 So, we offer a lot of different products.

 I started my career about 40 years ago

 as a graduate of the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy.

 I went to sea for six years on cargo ships, and

 sailed as a pilot in New York as well. I then

 actually reported up to Bob Connor as the ocean

 carrier for about five years before I went over to

 the dark side. I started up my career about 28

 years ago with DSL. I then started my own

 company, which was customs broker and NVOCC that I

 sold to Mohawk Global Logistics about 12 years

 ago.

 I'm also representing here and very

 humbled to have the nomination of NCBFAA. NCBFAA

 is an organization of customs brokers and freight

 forwarders, more than 1,100 company strong. So --

 and we do have a big range in terms of size of

 NGOs and customs brokers there, but I do hope to

 represent the voice of the small company as part
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 of NCBFAA.

 I did serve on three of the innovation

 teams, including Fact Finding 29, 28, and I worked

 also with the Memphis team.

 And, you know, I'm really looking

 forward to potentially coming up with solutions.

 I know there's no silver bullets in this, and it's

 going to require a lot of dialogue, but very

 humbled to be here and part of this very

 impressive group, and I look forward to get into

 work. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Rich. Next is

 Gabriel Rodriguez with A Customs Brokerage.

 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Good afternoon,

 everyone. When Rich was mentioning the voice of

 the small business, he was talking about me. I am

 Gabriel Rodriguez. I'm president of A Customs

 Brokerage. Very honored to be on this panel, this

 committee. Very thankful to the Commission and to

 all those involved for creating this. We are in

 some interesting times and looking forward to

 bringing some positive change and some positive
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 solutions to the table.

 I also am a board member of the NCBFAA,

 along with Rich, and also president of the Florida

 Customs Brokers Association. I've been a customs

 broker for 22 years. And I'm also a licensed

 NVOCC, so I've had experience for about -- the

 last 18 years in ocean transportation as well.

 I'm looking forward to this, and I thank

 you again.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Gabriel. Next,

 Randy Strait with Tyson.

 MR. STRAIT: Good afternoon, everyone.

 As he said, my name is Randy Strait. I'm working

 for Tyson Foods. I've been with Tyson for about

 40 years, that entire time in transportation, and

 the last three of that has been in international.

 I currently serve as the senior director of Global

 Logistics, so basically my teams are responsible

 for everything that Tyson does, except for

 domestic reefer trucking. We do all the bulk

 domestic moves in both truck and rail, have a

 fleet of about 2,000 rail cars. And then also,
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 obviously, the big part of it is the exporting to

 all the foreign countries to our -- delivering to

 our customers. We are responsible for exporting

 beef, pork, and poultry, and some of the

 affiliated materials along with that, like cattle

 hides and poultry meal.

 It's -- as everyone has said, obviously,

 this is a great opportunity. I thank the -- both

 the Commission and my partners for nominating me

 to be part of this Commission. I think it's a

 great opportunity to, you know, talk together and

 figure out, you know, what is the right solution.

 I hope that we can drive change and bring smart

 and intelligent and effective solutions for

 everybody, and I really look forward to working

 together. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Randy. Next is

 Mike Symonanis with Louis Dreyfus.

 MR. SYMONANIS: Hello. Mike Symonanis.

 I lead the export logistics and supply chain team

 for the cotton business within Louis Dreyfus

 Company based in Memphis, Tennessee. We are a top
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 U.S. container exporter on an annualized basis for

 the Journal of Commerce reporting. This year, or

 actually this week marks my 31st year working in

 the ocean container shipping industry.

 And so, first at the carrier side, some

 are to Ken and Adnan at APL, another alumni, and

 then now for -- as a shipper for the last 18

 seasons, which I've calculated out to be 126

 regular years of work in cotton. I'm proud to

 work with the members of the U.S. cotton export

 community both in American Cotton Shippers

 Association and the Texas Cotton Association, and

 bring their voices to the committee. And that's

 similar to some of the people have said, it's the

 small single person shop all the way to the global

 multinational.

 Our members are West Coast, East Coast,

 and Gulfport, and intermodal exporters. And we

 moved 189,000 FEU in the '21 -- or 2021 crop

 marketing year that just ended at the end of July.

 So, the southern half of the U.S. focus from

 Oakland to Norfolk on a daily and weekly basis.
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 As we begin our work, I will close with

 today's guidance from the Maxwell Daily Reader on

 leadership, "Allow your problems to motivate you

 toward greater creativity and strength." Thank

 you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Mike. Now, we

 have Josh Woods from Blue Diamond Growers.

 MR. WOODS: Thanks, Dylan. And first of

 all, I apologize. I'm traveling right now, so --

 but I do want to thank the Commission and then

 also all of my peers on the committee. You know,

 I represent Blue Diamond Growers, where I'm the

 director of international and domestic

 transportation and warehousing. We're a

 family-owned -- or a grower-owned coop, over a

 century-year-old and, you know, ship to 65 plus

 countries across the globe.

 And this opportunity I can't express

 enough how badly is needed across the country in

 helping the movements in and out of our port. And

 I'm excited to be able to share our perspectives

 not only of the online community, but also of
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 (inaudible). And then also, I sit on the board of

 the Northern California World Trade Center, and,

 you know, bringing all of those perspectives, as

 my peers said before, I think it's critical to the

 success of not only this Commission, but also --

 by this committee, but also to just logistics in

 general in the United States.

 So, thanks again.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Josh, and

 thank you for being flexible with your

 arrangements and logging on today. The last

 committee member is Colin Yankee from Tractor

 Supply.

 MR. YANKEE: Hey, Dylan, thanks. I get

 to be the caboose in the introductions here with

 the alphabetical disadvantage. But I'll close out

 the introductions. As Dylan said, my name is

 Colin Yankee. I'm the chief supply chain officer

 for Tractor Supply Company. We're a rural

 lifestyle retailer. We have almost 2,000 stores

 in 49 states. And I'm based in the Nashville,

 Tennessee area. I've been a track supplier since
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 2015. And I'm responsible for our end-to-end

 supply chain, so that includes merchandise

 planning, inventory management, international and

 domestic transportation logistics, and

 distribution center operations.

 And as the rest of the committee has

 said, it's great to be part of this group of

 importers and exporters and to be able to work

 with just an expert group of operators and

 leaders. And just hearing everybody's

 introduction, it's really humbling, great variety

 of experiences. And I think as Steve alluded to

 in his intro, I think that will lead to a really

 balanced perspective instead of recommendations.

 And I look forward to contribute to the

 conversation on behalf of my company Track Supply,

 but also America's retailers to find solutions and

 recommendations for the committee.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Colin. And

 that is the committee. I want to thank every --

 well, I'm glad the committee was able to join and

 we did have all members in attendance.
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 Next on our agenda is the chair and vice

 chair. This will be more of an announcement. But

 in the committee's charter, it says that the

 members will elect a chair and vice chair. We

 solicited nominations for these positions, and the

 committee voted. So, I would like to announce

 that the chair will be Brian Bumpass from

 Brenntag. And the vice chair will be Mike

 Symonanis of Louis Dreyfus. Do you all want to

 say anything or -- that's okay if not.

 MR. BUMPASS: Yeah, I didn't know I was

 on mute there. But I just want to again thank the

 FMC for the support and the creation of this

 committee, and especially to Commissioner Dye for

 her vision for this. You know, as most of the

 members said, timing couldn't be better, and I'm

 confident that you guys have put together a

 diverse group of experts that will certainly bring

 forth productive and viable recommendations for

 change. It's certainly an honor for all of us to

 serve on the committee. And I know that we all

 appreciate the FMC's support both in our work in
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 supply chain management, but also for our

 respective industries. And then certainly to the

 -- my fellow committee members, thanks so much for

 your faith in me. I'm looking forward to working

 with you in our collective effort to resolve the

 issues and inefficiencies that we're all

 experiencing. And while the current freight

 markets were certainly some of the worst that

 we've seen, many of the problems that are so

 evident now have, in fact, been present for years

 and years passed. So, it's my hope that we can

 work toward the vision of a preferred future that

 is jointly shared by shippers, carriers, ports,

 and of course, the FMC. So, thank you.

 MR. SYMONANIS: I'll just jump in and

 say that, yeah, I support, you know, all the work

 that we're going to do and look forward to working

 with everybody. I mean, clearly, there's a great

 cross-section and diverse perspective and

 experience that we're going to bring to the task.

 As all of you know, what we're facing did not

 develop as a result of the recovery from COVID.
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 So, the way forward is together and the way

 forward is through our efforts to figure out what

 we can realize. And I look forward to supporting

 the work of Brian and the rest of you and all the

 voices that we're bringing into our deliberations

 on a consistent basis.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, guys. So, I

 will, in the future, work most closely with Brian

 and Mike, but will be available to the entire

 committee, and the committee will be involved in

 sort of planning in the committee's work. At this

 point, we would like to take a short break. We

 will return in 10 minutes for a roundtable

 discussion by the Committee. Thank you.

 (Recess)

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. I have 2:12

 on my computer, so I will go ahead and sort of

 begin the next part of today's meeting. We are

 going to begin the portion of today's program that

 I believe everyone has signed on for and is

 particularly interested in hearing. The agency

 has some ideas on topics that we hope to get
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 thoughts and expertise of the committee members

 from. They are broadly these three things:

 Information sharing and transparency among the

 supply chain actors, cargo fees, and current

 observations of the supply chain. The committee

 is not limited to discussing those topics, and we

 welcome the committee introducing other ideas

 during the session.

 At this point, I will sort of turn it

 over to the committee. Probably it might work

 best if the committee members have -- would --

 could raise their hands, and I will keep track and

 call as I see it. It should pop up on my screen.

 I think we want to start off with the information

 sharing and transparency point. So, yeah.

 MR. BUMPASS: Don't everybody speak at

 once? And to raise your hand, there's a button at

 the bottom with reactions. Just click that, and

 then click raise hand, so Dylan can see you guys.

 MR. RICHMOND: I see Mike has his hand

 raised. It should pop up on my screen too.

 MR. SYMONANIS: I guess to kind of start
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 us off, I think there were two things that as we

 looked at it was for cotton and on the export

 community that, one, was to really try to

 understand as we -- as Chairman Maffei has kind of

 communicated, you know, his vision, goals, and

 objectives on the national Port of -- operations,

 metrics, and visibility standards. And I would

 say more inside of that, that respect proprietary

 information. Clearly, Port of L.A. and

 Commissioner Dye have worked on this for quite a

 while. It hasn't expanded beyond that operating

 area for some -- for reasons that are not

 necessarily clear today. And so, I think, you

 know, some of it is the interconnectivity of

 systems and things like that.

 So, we've got -- you know, so looking at

 this, as it relates to our second one, which is

 really looking at aligned and stable ERD

 documentation at port cutoff, change visibility,

 and management guidance at the alliance port and

 vessel service level, the export side who are also

 experiencing the import side, the congestion, the
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 delays, the disruption, it has a consequential

 impact for exporters. Early return dates, port

 cutoffs, documentation cutoffs are changing daily,

 multiple times on the same day, and really

 destroying the ability to meet export pickup

 commitments.

 And so, we cannot fundamentally change

 the physical aspect of what's going on at this

 point, and yet the ability to see better the

 implications of what's going on, I believe, sits

 inside of something that our members are trying to

 get inside of, right, to look at it, you know,

 when it's too macro to say nationally. So, how do

 you look at it at the alliance service port level,

 right? A particular string trying to get some

 better visibility on. If three vessels are six

 days apart when they're normally 21 days apart,

 how soon does somebody see that? And how -- and

 where does it go from, you know, green to yellow

 to red, as an example?

 So, those would be two I would just kind

 of put up more broadly than we've already
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 submitted, but I wanted to just get in front of

 the broader committee members for consideration.

 MR. RICHMOND: I think I see Brian's

 hand up. And you're muted.

 MR. BUMPASS: It might help. I'll get

 use of that. To echo what Michael was saying

 about the lack of interconnectivity within systems

 or between systems, you know, certainly there are

 blockchain solutions coming to our industry. You

 know, it could be short term. It could be long

 term. I don't really know. I don't think any of

 us have a technology roadmap. There are a

 timeline for when to expect that.

 But the absence of blockchain requires

 the use of traditional communication methods to

 share data and updates including orders, booking

 requests, booking confirmations, SDS sheets in my

 industry or IMOs, arrival notices, and freight

 invoices. An email is used almost exclusively for

 this, while TMS platforms that some shippers may

 have in house or certainly for to provide the

 tracking platforms do allow for "real-time"
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 visibility of track and trace data. And this

 track and trace data especially now is often not

 up to date due to delays or inaccuracies

 originating in carrier systems which kind of feeds

 all of those downstream. So, you know, certainly

 this creates a little bit of a hodgepodge of

 visibility issues. It's almost like driving your

 car with certain parts of your windshield covered

 up with mud and still being expected to get

 through obstacles without collision.

 Additionally, there's really no

 real-time visibility, that I'm aware of, to

 shippers of vessel load factors or true real-time

 visibility of the equipment supplied in deficit

 areas, which would allow, you know, shippers to

 better proactively plan to avoid, you know, their

 transshipment ports that have congestion, you

 know, carriers that are already overbooked for

 certain service strings, or carrier port of

 origination combinations that have no equipment

 there. You know, giving shippers this visibility

 certainly helps our business, but it would also
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 help the carriers, I think, better facilitate

 certainly the equipment deficit areas and

 balancing demand a little bit more efficiently, if

 that makes sense.

 MR. RICHMOND: Dan, I see your hand.

 Dan, are you there? Dan? Scott, yeah, you're

 turn.

 MR. FREMONT: Sure. I can go if --

 yeah, Dan's working out the technology issues. I

 think it's important, you know, as we continue to

 see all the headlines and articles about the

 problems facing the industry right now. It's a

 struggle when there's just a one data point or

 one-sided data that is being provided when you

 don't have that full end-to- end visibility of

 what the BCOs data is, what the terminals data is,

 what the port data is, what the carrier data is,

 to really assess from a problem-solving

 standpoint, are the things that we're even trying

 right now going to make a difference? Will 24/7

 operations actually drive a change, or is that not

 the root cause of what's going on?
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 And I think it's difficult when we don't

 have openness to that data for everyone to kind of

 dig in and problem solve and being able to assess,

 you know, objectively what is going on and get to

 that true root cause. So, you know, I think this

 is absolutely fundamental if we want to start to

 assess problem solving in this. And not just try

 things and see if they work, but actually have the

 data behind it and the analytics to say, is this

 going to make a difference? And is this actually

 going to help solve the root cause?

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. Thank you,

 Scott. Dan Miller, are you there? I saw your

 hand up earlier.

 MR. MILLER: Yeah, even now?

 MR. RICHMOND: Yes, we can.

 MR. MILLER: Okay. Sorry about that.

 No, I think because we look at all the different

 intermodal opportunities that we have whether it

 be on the trade side or the rail side. Too many

 times we see ocean carriers have one date, and

 we're working with them to return something that
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 the rail is already a day ahead of their updating

 the -- as far as the cutoff dates. So, trying to

 get everything connected in the single system --

 and, you know, I don't know how -- what the

 solution is, but you've got so many different TMS

 systems. The ports have one date. The rail has

 another date. The carriers have another date.

 There has to be at least some sort of alignment

 like, you know, we said earlier, you know, what

 turns -- what makes the thing turn to yellow? You

 know, at least give some prenotice that, hey,

 there might be an issue here, that as at least a

 step in the right direction. But to get all of

 these links in the supply chain aligned is I think

 the first piece. You know, just whether it'd be

 technology can do that or not, I don't know yet,

 but, you know, there has to be something we can

 look at to move this forward.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Steve Hughes,

 you're next on the list.

 MR. HUGHES: Thank you. So, it doesn't

 -- so, in my point of view, it doesn't matter how
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 good of a communication we have from the carriers.

 If it goes way back to how it was -- a ship was

 limited to, you know, the transit time to whether

 there's an anchor or not, or how good the labor or

 the terminals working, if the front gate isn't

 efficient, everything else is moot.

 I was part of the supply chain

 innovations team with Rich and Debb and Ken a

 number of years ago. And for those of you that

 aren't aware, we were split into three teams. And

 those three teams were given the task. And

 there's about 30 to 36 of us, I think, that we

 were split up into these teams. And the order of

 the day was, come back with the one most important

 thing that would help with -- helping the supply

 chain and the ports. And all three teams came

 back with the same thing, we've got to clean up

 and make the front of the gate basically more

 efficient.

 Right now, specifically in L.A./Long

 Beach, which this dominoes into everybody because

 of the problems we have here, we have the issues
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 with triangle moves, refusal of empties, lack of

 chassis, et cetera. This is such a challenge for

 the dredge community to get in and out. That, as

 I said, it doesn't matter what's going on behind

 the gate. If you can't get those trucks in and

 out and get that cargo moving as quickly as

 possible, everything else is kind of moot at this

 point. And I think we need to look at what do we

 do now. To me, that's the most important thing to

 discuss. Long term, everything that you're

 talking about is absolutely critical. But for the

 short term, what we really need to do is focus on

 what's going on in that gate.

 And one of the concerns I have is this

 new fee that was announced at the L.A./Long Beach

 by the ports. I'm concerned that this is actually

 going to cause even more problems, then it's going

 to fix. I understand the logic behind it, and it

 makes some sense, but unfortunately because we

 don't have that throughput at the front gate, I

 think this could cause us more troubles than we

 have already. Until we fix the chassis problem,
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 until we get some sort of a fix for the empties

 issues, and start getting that real flow of those

 trucks through the terminals instead of a

 four-hour wait for these guys, never mind what the

 turn time is from the GeoPost, but the true wait

 time, until we cut that down to an hour for these

 trucks, we're not going to get those boxes out of

 there.

 And I have one important question for

 the Commission and that is, was the FMC given

 notice about this fee? And if so, did it go

 through the proper process in the California

 Association of Port Authorities agreement that's

 on file with the FMC since the '40s?

 So, we need to look at this new fee, if

 it was implemented under that authority, and we

 have to consider what the impacts are going to be.

 But we've got to get that fluidity at the front

 gate. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Debb, you're next. Debb

 Minskey, you're next.

 MS. MINSKEY: Well, first, I'm going to
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 start with -- yeah, what Steve said was what was

 my start on both points, actually. But more so,

 it's also in accordance with what he's saying.

 It's having the plan and sticking to the plan.

 And I get there's going to be some variance. Some

 variance is not a problem, but, you know, if your

 truck is on the way to take an empty back and they

 say, we changed our mind and we're not doing

 empties anymore today, that's a huge problem. And

 that needs to be addressed quickly, because these

 are the little bottlenecks that have created the

 huge bottleneck we have today. And we got to fix

 some of the basic things, I think.

 And again, one opinion, and I'm

 certainly open to other ones, I think the

 technology goes hand in hand with this. But along

 with the technology, there's got to be a plan, and

 we got to stick to the plan. There's appointment

 systems to pick up containers. It needs to be

 adhered to on both sides. The empty returns, it's

 got to be advanced notice of, this is the plan,

 and then we stick to it. So, if we can't start
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 organizing ourselves in better ways -- and when I

 say "us," I mean the entire supply chain industry.

 It's not just BCOs. It's not just ports,

 carriers, et cetera, truckers. It's all of us.

 And maybe that's a good starting point as we

 should start identifying some things that might be

 good to work on. Again, I'm not sure, but this is

 the start, and we need to address a lot of things

 here.

 MR. RICHMOND: Michael Brock, you are

 next.

 MR. BROCK: Yeah. I mean, I agree with

 Debb, Steve, and Scott. It's -- that gate and

 being able to execute what you want -- what you're

 planning to execute and efficiently use the

 resources that you're planning to dedicate to that

 gate is vital. Whether it be the plan, the

 systems long term, et cetera, it's -- I think all

 of us in a lot of cases want to get our loaded

 containers from the port. And specifically, SoCal

 is what I'm talking to. And it's just the

 barriers and the adjustments to our original plan,
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 especially this empty return piece. It's huge to

 making it happen. So, I'm just reiterating what

 those three said, for sure.

 MR. RICHMOND: Bob Connor?

 MR. CONNOR: Thank you, Dylan. The

 first thing I wanted to comment on was the -- to a

 point that I think Steve made to mark. We heard

 about the new charge immediately reached out to

 some of our contacts at the FMC. And from the

 conversation that we had, it was pretty obvious

 that they were not forewarned by the fact that

 this thing was coming. My bigger concern was I

 was unfamiliar with, do the terminals have to give

 30 days' notice to the carriers about charges? It

 appeared that they didn't. However, very

 definitely, the carriers have to give us notice of

 30 days that they want to pass this stuff on, in

 my opinion. And once again, that conversation was

 -- it was recognized, but certainly the answer

 was, I'm going to have to get back to you. So, I

 mean, this thing really absolutely came out of

 leftfield. I don't know what many of you feel,
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 but I just don't see this charge doing anything

 with having more cost to the process. And right

 at this point in time, the freight rates and

 everything else being what they are, the last

 thing I think we need is more cost. So, maybe

 somebody could step in and put the brakes on this.

 But the one thing that really has struck

 -- jumped out at me in the last two days, or

 actually the last few weeks, trying to get to the

 core of what we think the problems are,

 particularly in L.A. so we can give answers to our

 customers is to say, number one, first and

 foremost, it's the driver shortage. Something

 needs to be done to enable the industry to attract

 more drivers and enable these guys to do more than

 one move a day. It's the second biggest problem.

 It pieced together some statistics regarding

 chassis. Right now, there are 2,500 chassis close

 to it anyway. At one time, there was 2,000.

 2,500 chassis out of service in the Port of

 L.A./Long Beach combined. There are another 1,000

 chassis sitting under empties waiting to get back
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 into the terminal. And there's another 1,000

 chassis sitting under loads in the lots of

 warehouses because the boxes can't get stripped

 out. And do the math, 4,500 chassis, you know,

 off the table. There is no way that you can

 effectively handle the volume trade that we're

 talking about without a full complement of wheels.

 And I don't know what the answer is, but something

 needs to be done to try to get more chassis into

 the region.

 MR. RICHMOND: Brian Bumpass, I think

 your hand is next.

 MR. BUMPASS: Yeah. I think Bob touched

 on the really important part there at the driver

 shortage, primarily in California, the California

 Assembly Bill AB5, which is I think still under

 legal review and battle. It's certainly not going

 to do any favors for our industry both in terms of

 trade drivers, but also full truckload carriers.

 You know, I think there's a lot of interconnected

 issues here that are leading to, you know,

 blockages or bottlenecks at the gate. It's not,
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 you know, based on the latest security camera

 still shots I've seen from the inter gates of

 L.A./Long Beach, but it doesn't seem to be the

 massive lines of trucks trying to get in that

 we've seen in months past. And in fact, it's

 quite empty, because there are no chassis, to Bob

 and Steve's point.

 This is not a new issue. In 2014, there

 was an article that came out that the Port of Los

 Angeles acknowledged that there was a problem with

 the chassis situation and pledged to do all they

 could to fix it and rectify it. You know, this is

 obviously a couple of years after carriers got out

 of the chassis provision game, but nobody's really

 stepped up to the play to solve that problem. I

 mean, shippers really can't necessarily bear the

 additional cost, and it becomes a real estate

 problem for us as well. You know, where do we

 park all of the chassis? You know, Brenntag runs

 the 26 largest private fleet in America, but with

 our distribution centers, our tank farms, our bulk

 loading racks, we don't have available real estate
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 of any of our locations to stage 4, 5, 6, 7

 chassis.

 You know, I think that the ugly elephant

 in the room is perhaps a lack of port efficiency.

 You know, with the latest statistics from last

 year, there's not one U.S. port in the top 50 of

 the most efficient ports in the world. And that's

 a little bit embarrassing, because, you know,

 certainly we have access to the best technology.

 We have some of the hardest workers in the world.

 We have a great infrastructure here. And, you

 know, obviously, there are some infrastructure

 needs that are to be desired. But to not have a

 single port in the top 50, I think is symptomatic

 of a larger issue, especially with, you know,

 periodic labor negotiations, I think, thrown up

 every seven-year cycles pushing back on

 recommendations for port automation, for updated

 software platforms that may help the efficiency of

 those gate systems.

 You know, I don't know about the rest of

 you guys in the committee, but we've experienced
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 multiple times in L.A. And Long Beach both, where

 our drayage providers do have to pick up

 appointments and the port systems get completely

 overwhelmed, appointments get wiped out, and we

 basically have to start the process over again,

 while also paying the demurrage bill for the

 containers that are stuck at the port.

 An additional aspect of this that I

 think is leading to chassis shortages is -- and

 maybe some of you exporters in the Midwest who are

 shipping out of IPI locations can offer some

 clarity on this, but for our purposes, we can't

 get any booking -- any bookings confirmed into IPI

 points, whether Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas,

 Memphis. We can't get bookings there. So, we've

 had this setup translating networks at both

 coasts, which, you know, ultimately is fine. I

 mean, our total land and cost per pound as we

 calculated really isn't that different between,

 you know, port to port ocean freight plus the

 translating cost in the full truckload delivery,

 as it would be to pay the extortionary amounts for
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 an IPI booking on the rail.

 But what that translating operation does

 -- and we're not the only ones doing it. But it

 adds additional demand that otherwise would not be

 there for your drayage providers in, let's say,

 Long Beach or Los Angeles. It puts additional

 demand on the chassis supply, which is already

 tight, and it puts additional demand on

 warehousing space and translating staff and

 certainly on full truckload, you know, 53-foot

 drive vans, which are already at a really

 disadvantage labor truck ratio.

 So, there's a lot of these moving parts

 that are out kind of interconnected. And until we

 kind of addressed, you know, I wouldn't say all of

 them, but at least a majority of them, I don't

 know that we're really going to see any

 improvement in any single one of them.

 MR. RICHMOND: Scott Fremont, you are

 next on the list.

 MR. FREMONT: Yeah. Dylan, here's more

 of a question for you. Since the committee was
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 named, you know, earlier this year and kind of

 announced, there hasn't been a lack of working

 groups task force and other groups focused on

 solving, I would say, the more immediate needs for

 the ports, specifically L.A./Long Beach. So, you

 know, I know a lot of these companies on the call

 right now are involved in the White House task

 force and other meetings there. Is the scope of

 this group -- just to help focus my thinking of

 solutions, are we focused on short term? What do

 we need to do in the next three months to help the

 supply chain? Is it long-term systemic changes?

 Is that for us to decide? I'm just curious if we

 could reground ourselves in kind of the scope to

 make sure that we can have a productive

 conversation and where we should be focused on

 solving.

 MR. RICHMOND: Yeah. So, real quickly,

 this committee is, well, like long term or more

 long term in nature. I think, you know, it was

 established by Congress earlier this year, and I

 think it's currently scheduled to run until 2029.
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 And the committee itself is really to advise the

 Commission on its policies and procedures.

 MR. FREMONT: Okay. Perfect. Thank

 you. Because I think there's a lot of really good

 stuff that's being talked about, but I want to

 make sure we stay grounded on the longer term

 systemic changes. As we all know, there's

 thousands of containers waiting to get pulled out

 of those ports that have a lot of issues to make

 sure that we're staying grounded in the longer

 term systemic changes that we need to do so in --

 two years from now, we're still not having this

 exact same conversation.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Adnan Qadri?

 MR. QADRI: Yeah. So, Scott has asked

 this question that I was going to ask. So, I was

 trying to understand the same thing as like, hey,

 what are we looking at? Are we looking at more

 long-term solution? So, I think that -- thanks

 for clarifying that, Dylan. So, keeping that in

 mind, as I think about the longer term components

 of this problem, I do want to go back to the point
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 that I think Scott made earlier, which is very

 important, is that I think we need clear,

 measurable data across the board in the supply

 chain. And it needs to kind of -- and then -- and

 whether it's kind of working to identify, hey,

 where do we get each individual component of that

 data and then we're going to link it together, but

 it's very difficult right now -- I believe someone

 had mentioned that if we go into four different

 places, we can get four different milestones for

 the same problem -- for the same, you know, like,

 hey, has a vessel been discharged? Or has a

 container being gated out? Or is the container

 even available, right? Or where is it in the IPI

 supply chain, right? The IPI supply chain. And

 it's very difficult to get clear, clean milestones

 across each of the segment, so we can actually

 measure what some of the problem is.

 Similarly, when we talk to the

 terminals, we get a different metric for driver

 wait time. We talked to the dray carriers, and we

 get a different metric for driver wait time and
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 the same exact date for the same gates that you're

 talking about. Right? So, we don't actually know

 how long drivers wait at the gates and how long

 they are taking to get in and out of the

 terminals.

 So, that's one piece. I do think that

 we need to get to kind of bring us back to the

 topic that we were started off from, it's how do

 we get us to the point where we have clean,

 definable, and measurable data across each segment

 of the supply chain? And how do we kind of push

 this across each port and terminal in the U.S.,

 right, so that we have one place where we can kind

 of figure out a way to get this data and

 information when we are coming in arriving into

 various ports and terminals across the whole

 country, right? So, that's one piece.

 The second piece that kind of I was

 thinking about as I was hearing some of my

 colleagues speak here was that it seems like

 there's an opportunity for us to do whatever

 solutions that we are kind of putting in place to
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 make sure that they are a little bit longer term

 and they are not particularly reactionary, right?

 Because it takes a little while for the supply

 chain to adjust to some of the changes that we are

 making, right? So, 24/7 gates, we can shift

 weekend operations that turn on. If they're

 sporadic in nature, they're not going to

 necessarily help alleviate the crunch that we are

 feeling right now. If we say, hey, you're going

 to have Saturday gates for the next six months,

 then the supply chains can adjust to that. The

 dray providers can adjust their driver force, and

 they can figure out how to put more drivers on

 Saturday shifts. If you're going to do 24/7

 operations making sure that they're over a very --

 over a decent period of time, so that the supply

 chains can adjust and plan against those, it would

 be another thing that I think would -- I would

 recommend us thinking about, you know, how do we

 kind of go drive that instead of like more, hey,

 there's a lot of containers in the port. Let's

 figure out how to get them out by -- in the next
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 two weeks kind of solution, right? Because I

 think what we need is more sustained, defined

 longer term strategies that the supply chains can

 adjust to.

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. Thank you.

 And I want to circle back real quick to Scott's

 question on the purpose of the committee. I know

 I've not also sort of addressed it. The function

 as defined by Congress, I have folks in here

 sitting with me and helping me out, but the

 function as defined by Congress, the committee

 shall advise the FMC or the Federal Maritime

 Commission on policies relating to

 competitiveness, reliability, integrity, and

 fairness of the international ocean freight

 delivery system.

 So, with that said, Fernando Lagonell,

 you are next.

 MR. LAGONELL: Yes, thank you. Very

 good comments and opinions from everyone so far.

 Again, definitely, we are feeling all the

 different issues in the supply chain. But one of
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 the ones that I believe we need to also look at as

 we look at what's happening in L.A./Long Beach,

 I'm really looking at the root cause. Today we

 see that a lot of the retailer has changed their

 supply chain instead of going into an IPI

 location. They are ending their international

 voyages in L.A./Long Beach. And therefore,

 there's a need to bring an empty back into the

 port while we have a lot of exports in the Midwest

 and cannot get containers -- and we're ready to

 ship, but we cannot get containers and the

 carriers are refusing to allocate containers or

 relocate containers into the IPI location. So, it

 seems like the solution was good, but that

 solution created another problem. And the

 underlying issue there is definitely the

 reliability of the rail and the railhead around

 the Midwest. So, I think that there needs to be

 more than one action to solve a lot of the issues

 that we're confronted today, and I hope that

 working together we can get some of those actions.

 MR. RICHMOND: Okay. Steve Hughes?
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 MR. HUGHES: Yeah. I just want to

 follow up real quickly on what I said earlier. I

 know we're looking for long-term solutions here.

 But going back to the supply chain innovation

 state, we recognized many years ago that there

 were problems with the front gate and managing

 that solution. There's -- nothing has happened

 really to cure that. It's now exacerbated by the

 situation we're in now. So, this is short term,

 but it's long term. They have to find a solution.

 We have to come up with a solution for getting

 fluidity at the gate. If we don't get the

 velocity there, nothing behind the gate matters.

 One of the thing -- a comment was made

 about driver shortages. Right now, driver

 shortages isn't the problem. If we get more

 drivers, it's just going to make a longer line to

 full stop. Talk to the Harbor Truckers

 Association, they'll say the exact same thing.

 Until we get that velocity, more drivers is just

 going to add to the traffic jam.

 And then the one thing that I think --
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 and this is short term, but the chassis issue, we

 should ask for a temporary pause on the

 anti-dumping duty on the chassis. Until the

 domestic chassis manufacturers can get caught up,

 we need to get that done, because we're just going

 to be behind the eight ball until we start getting

 more of an inventory built up on that. I know

 this is short-term comments, but they affect us

 long term. Anyway, that was it.

 MR. RICHMOND: Mike Symonanis?

 MR. SYMONANIS: So, again, I think to

 circle back on this, I think, you know, Scott's

 point is right that, you know, how do we make

 fundamental progress? I mean, we're looking at

 this in terms of a bunch of different teams. You

 know, Steve has brought up some other things that

 have been focused on before years ago, right? You

 know, this situation we find ourselves in has --

 is a consequence of the volume exacerbating

 existing problems, and yet all of those existing

 problems have been visible to everybody who's

 participating in this committee and everybody else
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 who's not participating in this committee across

 many different industry organizations across the

 contrary.

 The question is, ultimately, what can we

 do within the scope both whether it's, you know,

 in other groups that are meeting to make progress,

 right? To the points raised, those extending

 gates, is that the root cause? I would say in a

 different part of the country that was tried, and

 the result was no material change to the points

 raised by Adnan and others, right? It's one --

 doing something is not addressing the root cause.

 And doing something asynchronous to the rest of

 the supply chain system does not allow things to

 fundamentally shift which takes time. And so, I

 see that because of the magnitude of the problems

 that we're facing and the implications across from

 small to large firms across the country, there is

 a pressure to "do something" as opposed to step

 back and pragmatically focus on some of these

 things.

 Again, I'm going to circle back on Port
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 of L.A. and Commissioner Dye's work with the

 optimizer. After this many years and the port

 funding it themselves, why is it not expanded down

 on the Port of L.A.? Why can we not get to common

 standards on fundamental information at the port

 to reduce the complexity that we're facing and

 trying to reconcile, as Dan said, between the two,

 three, or four sources to try to guide the trucker

 on what's going on, and as Debb raised too, that

 plans change and unwind with no clear guidance as

 to what's going on. And so, we're reacting inside

 the reactions on top of reactions. And that's not

 a recipe for success for anybody who's in this

 committee or anybody that we're working with to

 get the work done on a day-to-day basis. But I'll

 take it back again to these problems and

 opportunities are not new.

 And so, what is necessary in the scope

 of this committee's work to move some of the stuff

 forward inside the mandate of the FMC? Because

 we'll -- to the points kind of alluded to, we'll

 move past the pressure of this at some point, but
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 what have we learned as a nation and as regions?

 And what are we going to be able to do with it

 forward to prevent this kind of outcomes from

 happening again at the same magnitude that they

 are? And that's where -- I'm not coming to the

 table here with an answer. I'm just saying that

 this is in some senses predictable. The more

 volume you put through the system, it's going to

 break down. We know where the weak points are and

 the points of friction. What can we do about them

 knowing that, as Secretary Buttigieg has said,

 most of the time restructure assets are on the

 private sectors hands at which as they should be?

 And so, therefore, how do we bring the parties

 together to start solving this beyond some of

 these immediate things that are unclear whether

 they'll yield the benefits anticipated and

 announced?

 MR. RICHMOND: So, next on my list is

 Alison Leavitt.

 MS. LEAVITT: Hey, Dylan and everybody.

 Thanks. Yeah, I really -- actually, I think Mike
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 just took most of the words out of my mouth on

 what he was just addressing. And I think that the

 visibility piece is really one of the most

 essential pieces. And I think, as Dylan

 mentioned, one of the jobs here is integrity and

 fairness. And I think integrity can mean a lot of

 different things in this industry. But the

 integrity of the information is one of the most

 essential pieces that is missing. There's a lot

 of different breakdowns in integrity across the

 different areas we're going to discuss, and I

 think the next topic was fees. But the -- you

 know, the first topic that was on the list was

 this how technology can increase fluidity and what

 we can do as a long- term approach. So, I really

 don't have -- I think Mike really just covered

 what I wanted to address, but I do think that

 visibility piece and how to figure out that

 platform and a go forward plan for that should be

 absolutely at the top of our list, because that

 really is essential to the entire ecosystem. So,

 I just wanted to throw that back out there.
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 MR. RICHMOND: Colin Yankee?

 MR. YANKEE: I raised my hand not

 knowing what Michael and Alison were going to say.

 So, it seems like we're getting some focus and

 consensus here. But every column on with the Port

 of L.A., the leadership there is constantly

 encouraging the use of the port optimizer, which

 we use, our dray providers use, our departments at

 the Port of L.A. use. But obviously, we know

 that's just for L.A., not for Long Beach or other

 ports even outside the Southern California.

 And this is a question for the group,

 and maybe something we can work on as a team is,

 what can the FMC do or what can they recommend the

 Congress to do to encourage, incentivize, or even

 require that data sharing? And so, first, should

 that data sharing requirement be tied to any money

 that flows from the federal government to the

 ports? Or are there other means to kind of push

 these things that have been talked about for a

 long time into action?

 And I think about, you know, Steve's
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 comments earlier on the fee that was announced

 yesterday, you know, that's -- I understand the

 intent of it is to drive behavior, right? And at

 what point can the FMC drive behavior to get this

 data sharing platform beyond just kind of the Port

 of L.A. encouraging it? Because right now, I'd

 pushed forwards. I'd rather move towards a

 platform that is flawed and has issues that we can

 then work on together and figure out then this

 kind of status quo of only one kind of pocket of

 information and we're satisfied with doing nothing

 in other places. And so, there has to be some

 compelling factor that we push in order to get

 this moved along.

 MR. RICHMOND: Rich Roche?

 MR. ROCHE: Thanks. And again, we're

 all talking along the same lines and thinking the

 same lines. It's easy to wonder as we go

 downstream from this, but, you know, certainly one

 of the key provisions when -- in the supply chain

 innovation team, you can't manage what you can't

 measure. And so, digitalization of the supply
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 chain, getting that standardization in the

 language is very important.

 I know that there was a comment made

 like, how do we get other courts involved in this

 and other areas? You know, the way that we were

 blessed to have Gene Seroka in the Port of L.A.

 To step up with funding this in court, and I know

 it's a public-private partnership, but still how

 do we get more of that, I think we need to entice

 ports and terminal management around the country

 to buy into this and maybe there's some government

 funding that we can get in place in the

 infrastructure bill, if that goes through. But I

 think it's very important to think about that,

 because the benefits that that brings in terms of

 predictive analytics and when can you actually

 predict that your cargo will be available to come

 in and get it, assuming that we get the frontend

 gate all worked out, and we can get back to normal

 flow, this has to be a long-term solution that we

 put into place.

 As far as the hyper-demurrage that was
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 announced in L.A./Long Beach this week, I think it

 will be catastrophic. I think that the chassis

 are already in short supply. This will

 artificially suck out the rest of the containers

 that may be sitting in there that didn't need to

 be on a chassis and they're going to be parked

 somewhere. So, we're going to probably wipe out

 whatever is left in terms of chassis. I think

 that that's something that we have to look at

 potentially. As Bob Connor said, put the brakes

 on this.

 The last thing, and it's like maybe

 something that we haven't really addressed so far,

 but as far as the IPI points, places like Memphis

 where they have box rules in place, these are

 terrible rules for our industry where chassis by

 one supplier may be available, but you can't use

 them, because your carrier says you have to use a

 different chassis leaser. These things have to be

 addressed, dray pool has to be looked at, and it's

 one of the things that would ease up the flow,

 because this is every one aspect that we have
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 that's problematic. It impacts all of the others.

 And we have to fix them, you know, maybe one at a

 time, but we really -- we should focus on the most

 egregious. And I think box rules, that is

 egregious. We got to get on that.

 So, that's all. I'll leave that there.

 MR. RICHMOND: Debb Minskey?

 MS. MINSKEY: A question for our group.

 Do we think it would be worthwhile to actually

 create definitions that could be used as standard

 for all of the U.S.? I -- somebody had mentioned

 it earlier about we don't have agreements on, you

 know, a container discharge. You know, what does

 that mean? Do we need something as basic as

 definitions as a starting platform to then start

 then building the technology that goes along with

 it to start doing our measuring?

 MR. RICHMOND: Debb, that's something

 that we can look into on our end as well. And I

 can talk with the chairs, Brian and Mike, about

 that afterwards, in particular.

 But anyway, I think after -- next is Ken
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 O'Brien.

 MR. O'BRIEN: Thanks, Dylan. You know,

 I actually have a -- Rich might be looking over my

 shoulder, because I have managed and measured,

 written down here in my notes. I think, you know,

 Mike Symonanis said it very well in saying that

 this is all -- all of this predates COVID and the

 COVID was likely to spark. But, you know, I think

 this industry has materially changed over the last

 decade. And I'd say it's, you know, the

 decentralized supply chain on the international

 side. The consolidation of the carrier is much

 bigger and much larger complex companies,

 divesting of terminals to private equity, the

 divestiture of chassis.

 And, you know, when you think about what

 typically when I speak with our members as to

 their struggles, one of the things that's most

 apparent to me is often their struggles with

 someone they don't have a contractual relationship

 with, a terminal operator, a chassis tool

 provider, a railroad. And so, I think as this
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 group talks about how we can potentially help

 industry change, it has to involve the actors with

 which we don't particularly have a relationship

 with. And so, what I see often, and I think, you

 know, the national narrative played it out last

 week, right, there's a meeting in Washington and

 the President made his announcement 24-hour gates.

 Port authority leaders say 24-hour gates,

 instantaneously terminal heads come out in the

 press and say that actually won't work. We have

 gates there. They're open already. What's the

 point? It's -- there's no one in the lines, it's

 because all the cargo is in the warehouse.

 Warehouse operators very quickly say, well, we

 can't actually bring the empties back because

 there's no appointments and there's no chassis.

 Chassis providers say, well, actually, it turns

 out there's no chassis because they're at the

 warehouse, and this circular firing squad entails.

 And I think to Rich's point, because we

 don't have the data to support, we can't find

 causation. And without the data to find the
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 causation, we really can't tell what is actually

 broken. And so, I think as I think about this

 group it's really a set of recommendations that

 ultimately become asked or potentially policy that

 says, what are the minimum standards of data

 exchange that providers of the international

 transportation service owe to their customer. And

 maybe their customer is the steamship line, or

 maybe it's the beneficial cargo owner at the end.

 But I think there's really something that needs to

 be done there in defining what are those causation

 points and how do we force the people that have

 that data to ultimately have to put it up in front

 of us. And maybe it's just the power of groups

 asking, or maybe it's just that it changed -- a

 change in drayage. I don't really have a grasp on

 it yet. But I think this "manage what you

 measure" really gets back to without the data

 piece, we're really stuck. And I think that's

 where the FMC, you know, and the interaction with,

 you know, the STB on the rail has failed us thus

 far. And certainly, the pool providers, you know,
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 seemingly operating in a bit of a commercial

 vacuum, as do the rails that relate to the

 international boxes. Thanks.

 MR. RICHMOND: Bob Connor?

 MR. CONNOR: Thank you, Dylan. When we

 -- this is actually more of a question for you,

 Dylan. You know, in organizing NSAC, each of the

 members were asked to develop a list of items that

 they thought would be viable discussion points,

 for lack of a better term. I mean, I know that I

 put in six. I know that none of my six were

 intended to be quick fixes. It's going to take a

 little more thought, and, you know, the rest of us

 to put our heads together to maybe address some of

 them. Is there any intent for you as the foreman

 of the group, so to speak, to assemble that list,

 share it back to us, so that we can see, you know,

 what our collective thoughts were, and maybe from

 that pick out a small group of items that we want

 to attack? Because, I mean, this is our first

 meeting together, the first reaction is to try and

 take big bites. And unfortunately, that's not
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 going to get -- it's going to be a bunch of small

 bites that will get the job done. And I just have

 it on my mind that at the end of the day, we're

 going to go back to the Commission or possibly

 some of the government folks that are buying, you

 know, changing the shipping regulations and give

 them hardcore recommendations as to what needs to

 be done. Honestly, I don't see -- we need more

 chassis, which we do, being something to recommend

 to, you know, the congressman and to the

 Commission. Maybe to put a little more control on

 chassis would be an item, but is there any intent

 to share that -- you know, amalgamate that list

 and share it back to the rest of us?

 MR. RICHMOND: Yeah, that's a good

 question. So, I want to thank the committee

 members that have sort of sent their suggestions.

 And what I've been doing is compiling them, and

 then I will pass it on to the chair and vice

 chair. And now that we have those sort of

 established, I was planning on sending it to them.

 Again, part of the compilation was that
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 -- so I'm sort of like the clearing -- I was sort

 of the initial clearinghouse of the committee.

 So, to bring those ideas, compile them, and then

 share them back out, at least via the chair and

 vice chair, and sort of let them make the decision

 on what the committee would like to do, the agency

 or the Commission is not going to dictate what the

 committee does, and we want to leave that up to

 you. But I sort of viewed it as an opportunity to

 sort of collect what the committee wanted to look

 at, and then sort of through the chair and vice

 chair, let them sort of start thinking about what

 it might be good for the committee to examine.

 I want to also -- so, it's three

 o'clock, and we have another hour. I know there's

 -- on our sort of agenda, there's items about

 cargo fees, and I know we've sort of addressed it,

 or we've been sort of addressing it here and

 there. But I know the Commission is interested in

 hearing on the -- if there's room for us to

 address fees and how to sort of approach various

 fees and how we should approach our policies
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 towards them. We can also continue the discussion

 on the supply chain and/or the visibility that's

 been going on.

 Jen Morrissey, I had you on my list for

 next.

 MS. MORRISSEY: Thank you for that, DFO

 Richmond. I actually took my hand down, because

 so many of my peers have offered the same opinions

 that I was going to bring forward. I just want to

 commend those that talked about the inland depots

 as being a major sort of spot. The lack of

 transparency about what source of data is actually

 the true source of data in the actual status of

 the container or the appointment or your booking.

 And I do think that data governance among multiple

 platforms is the only way forward in whatever form

 that takes. So, by that, I primarily mean which

 version of the truth is the actual version of the

 truth that all parties involved in the movement of

 goods from one point to another aligned to use as

 a single point of data that is, you know, agreed

 on and aligned on by all.
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 And then the other point that I heard

 that I'm also 130 percent behind is hearing from

 the suppliers that we don't contract with that are

 the underlying suppliers of our carriers, right?

 So, our carriers or our contractual partners are

 contracting or subletting out some of the services

 to the other parties involved. And having

 transparency around and more connection with those

 parties actually holding there end of the

 responsibility in movement of the cargo from one

 point to another.

 So, you know, I know a lot of folks have

 said that in one form or another, and I just

 wanted to reiterate for all on the call to hear

 that those are vital to exporters.

 MR. RICHMOND: Sean Healy?

 MR. HEALY: Yeah, thank you. You know,

 I think in terms of this committee making

 suggestions and advising the Federal Maritime

 Commission, I think it would be helpful if we

 understood fully what the FMC actually has

 authority to do in terms of making change versus
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 maybe what they have just influence over. I think

 that would be helpful. Further, I think it would

 also be helpful if we understood or have an

 understanding of the Shipping Reform Act that's

 being proposed and how that might either increase

 or decrease the FMC's authority on a lot of these

 issues that we're facing. So, that's number one.

 Number two, just thinking out loud here,

 you know, if we can structure this committee in an

 -- in kind of an open question here, but if we

 could identify, you know, six major problems, does

 it make sense to agree on those and have a task

 force? So, four people and divided up, you know,

 into subgroups for each one of these issues. You

 know, just an open question on the structure of

 the committee.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Sean.

 Regarding the point on the FMC's authority, at a

 future meeting we could certainly have a briefing

 by agency officials that sort of weigh out more

 clearly what the agency has authority over versus

 what has more influence over or does not have
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 authority over. I will work with -- I can work

 with the chairs on that -- or with Brian and Mike

 on that.

 Gabriel Rodriguez?

 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, Dylan. I

 just wanted to pull on that string a little bit

 more that that was brought up by some of my

 colleagues as far as kind of drilling down and

 getting to a particular point of an action item,

 so to say.

 So, listening to a lot of the comments

 and drawing a little bit on my experience, I know

 that one of the issues that we have, which is

 really the topic here, is transparency of

 information, right? So, that data and how do we

 collectively gather that data, share it, analyze

 it, and ensure that it operates for us in a manner

 that helps, you know, fluidity, as Chairman Maffei

 said in his directives, right?

 Technology to increase fluidity, how do

 we do that? I know that there's programs out

 there. There's software out there that call
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 themselves community -- what is it called? I just

 looked it up a second ago. Community transparency

 programs or whatever the case may be, where some

 of the governments -- local governments may have

 adopted them to be able to share information as to

 what's going on.

 But going back to Debb's point, you

 know, I'd like to see that we would define, you

 know, certain terms, so that they are universal at

 least here in the U.S., universal amongst our

 different terminals, universal amongst the

 carriers, so that there's a layman in that case,

 so that we can harness this information, possibly

 use some type of community system to make that

 information more visible to all the players

 involved.

 And so, again, pulling on that string

 trying to draw in a focus, for me something as

 simple as an accurate ETA. As a customs broker, I

 call up steamship lines all the time and ask for

 arrival notices, arrival information. And many

 times, an answer may come back as, well, we're not
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 obligated to give you this. It's a courtesy that

 we give you this. Well, something as simple as an

 ETA is a very useful piece of information in order

 to start planning and analyzing what one does, you

 know, throughout the process. So, if we could,

 perhaps a small recommendation, instead of ETAs,

 as an example, being a courtesy from the carriers,

 perhaps it being a requirement that an accurate

 ETA, you know, be proposed.

 So, again, I just want to drill down to

 specific points. You know, we want to walk away

 from this having given very tangible directives to

 -- not directives, I'm sorry. Tangible solutions

 or tangible suggestions to the Federal Maritime

 Commission. And so, that I think is a place to

 start, you know, defining exactly what we want in

 terms of defined terms, you know, across the

 states and then, you know, terminals and carriers

 and whatnot, and then drawing from there, you

 know, solutions that we can tackle. This issue is

 huge, right, and it predates COVID. And there's

 so many different issues, so many different
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 players involved. You know, so that a business

 book that came out, you know, 15, 20 years ago,

 How Do You Eat An Elephant? You take one small

 bite at a time. So, I'd say we kind of focus in

 on specific points and start drawing from there.

 Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Josh Woods?

 MR. WOODS: All right. Thanks. Yeah, I

 just want to -- first of all, a little what I'd

 say will be probably reiterating what Gabriel and

 Ken said. You know, I'm in significant agreement

 to the need for data collection. You know, as we

 think about, you know, the transfer of data, you

 know, predictability in and out of our ports is

 extremely important, right? I mean, there are

 significant dollars associated with inefficiencies

 throughout the supply chain.

 You know, so, to that point, to me

 looking at the issues at the -- let's just say,

 West Coast ports, U.S. ports, looking at those

 issues kind of in a silo, you know, there's a

 reason that it's called the supply chain. So, if
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 you have multiple links that are broken, and

 trying to fix one link, I think it doesn't really

 solve the problem, as many of my peers have said.

 You know, but the one thing, you know,

 taking it back to the grassroots level, you know,

 I'm thinking about, you know, from a continuous

 improvement point of view, like, in order to

 optimize any business process, you got to be able

 to define and measure that process. And I don't

 feel like as a -- you know, I mean, you can say it

 as a port, as a carrier, as a country, I don't

 feel like we have a very good data collection

 plan. And I feel like in order for us to be able

 to -- whether it's this group, whether it's the

 FMC, whether it's, you know, whoever, in order to

 go out and fix issues, we have to kind of

 understand what those issues are. You know, so,

 how do we -- as the industry, how do we create

 things like rules of engagements with carriers to

 our ports, right? I mean, if a carrier wants to

 interact with us, how do we create those rules of

 engagement, so we can ensure the right and
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 accurate data is being transferred back and forth?

 Things like that. Like, how do we create a data

 collection plan? And it's kind of an open-ended

 question, not necessarily directed to anybody.

 But how do we create a data collection plan that's

 going to allow us to go find what the issues

 actually are versus, you know, the 50 percent

 emotion of what the issues are, because that's

 what's causing, that's what's eating my lunch,

 versus the actual issue as Ken was saying these

 underlying suppliers and, you know, all the

 information that may be invisible to majority of

 the industry.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Josh. Mike

 Symonanis?

 MR. SYMONANIS: Yeah, real quick. There

 was a mention on the intermodal environment, so I

 wanted to raise just one point, because Rich was

 been very involved with the -- what's going on

 with respect to chassis in the intermodal

 marketplace.

 And so, I want to advise everybody
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 because it's not widely distributed information

 yet, but it is public and it has happened. The

 DCLI -- you know, (inaudible) has been working

 with DCLI to try to get inside the box rule

 conundrum for the Memphis area. And it sits

 inside the work we've been doing with Commissioner

 Dye's team for four years. But DCLI basically

 worked with BNSF and UP to agree for a suspension

 of gate control for mismatched containers with

 DCLI under that, right? So, if it's a CMA, and it

 should be under a track, UP, Marion, and BNSF

 Memphis are going to allow them in effective

 basically on Monday.

 So, again, not wildly distributed, but

 this sits inside of the -- you know, as we've

 talked about, it's not about chassis provisioning

 in the sense of -- it's about the driver finding

 the right unit to match up, right? So, unclear

 that this will expand beyond the Memphis

 intermodal marketplace, but we've been focused on

 it for four years. Unclear if it'll expand with

 the other IEPs that are serving that market or
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 other intermodal markets, but it has happened.

 And it has happened I think to Bob's point on the

 small bite, right? This is not something that's

 going to get solved in a 24-person meeting in

 front of competitors, right? It was ongoing

 conversations about what's feasible, what is and

 isn't practical, how does it happen, and working

 together to bring parties together. And it's not

 saying that it's good nor bad that it actually was

 involved in it. I fully support what Bob

 mentioned on the small bites. Coming out of this

 deliberation, people have different energy and

 different impact on what we're coming together to

 deal with.

 And so, this is an example of something

 that it required parties to get together and talk

 about it. And it's bringing about a small game in

 a broader set of issues inside of a system. And

 I'll leave it at that for now. But I wanted to

 make sure that people know that, you know, a lot

 of in the IEP conversations they've kind of -- you

 know, to the points they've made, don't single out
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 anybody, they've kind of been singled out over the

 course of the last four years. And in this

 specific case, they have moved forward to help

 create a change in what we've sought on the export

 side for merchant haulage moves, and it's going to

 be an impactful change as we look at the

 complexity in the mid-south.

 MR. RICHMOND: All right. Rick DiMaio?

 MR. DIMAIO: Yeah. I agree with, you

 know, a lot of what's been said. And I wanted to

 offer up just two perspectives, you know, as a --

 on the shipper side of this conversation.

 You know, I've sort of -- my experience

 has been that all fines and fees flow to us in

 some circuitous route through a carrier's hands or

 somebody else to the beneficial cargo owners. And

 with the idea that keeping freight moving was the

 spirit of these fees in the first place, we're

 really the only entity as a BCO that has no

 control over this process. Not operating

 terminals, you know, not running vessels, not

 operating trucks don't own chassis.
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 And I'd like to see some more

 accountability in our thought process as we put

 these deals together, you know, that there's a

 contract process that's -- as you read into it and

 you really dig into these situations now that is

 sort of less than efficient and doesn't drive the

 right outcome. And I believe that there's going

 to be a need for a company like mine and some

 others to collaborate with one another and think

 of common ways to better use these processes and

 tools. You know, moving freight through report

 has so many different entities involved all

 motivated by something slightly different. But

 with this common belief that we're all here to

 move freight --

 MR. RICHMOND: Chris Crutchfield?

 MR. CRUTCHFIELD: Yeah, thank you very

 much. I actually took my hand down. I -- Josh

 jumped in there and helped me and took the words

 right out of my mouth on accuracy and data

 management. But I do have one other comment that

 I would want to reiterate something that Sean
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 said, and that's, you know, I think it would be a

 really good idea if we could identify a certain

 number, who knows, he mentioned six and but it

 could be five or seven or something other than

 that, specific items that this committee wanted to

 address, and maybe the chair could identify those

 along with your help Dylan and the vice chair and

 then out of everything that all of us have

 submitted, and then assign out some smaller

 working groups to address each one of those.

 Certainly, as we operate in the virtual

 world, it's difficult to, you know, really

 accomplish specific tasks and goals in this

 environment, and I -- with 24 people. And I think

 if you -- if we could break that down with some

 specific one item that a certain number of us are

 assigned to address and then bring that back to

 the group as a whole, we might find some tangible

 recommendations that we could take to the

 Commission. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Chris. Rick,

 did we -- were you finished speaking? You may
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 have been accidentally muted.

 MR. DIMAIO: Yeah, I think I got muted.

 MR. RICHMOND: We apologize.

 MR. DIMAIO: That's okay. I don't know

 where it muted me, so I'll just leave it where it

 was.

 MR. RICHMOND: Okay. Dan Miller, I saw

 your hand up.

 MR. MILLER: Yeah. Like others, I hold

 my hand back down. You know, Josh had kind of

 said the same thing I was going to look at as

 well. But, you know, I think you -- what I can

 add to that is, you know, if we don't have the

 data to really, you know, quantify what the issues

 are, then we see a port like we're seeing now with

 throwing out these crazy fees, we know this is all

 going to come back to us. You know, I had a

 couple of calls with carriers yesterday, and

 they've already admitted that yes, these are going

 to be fees that are going to come back to us. And

 I don't think there's anybody on this call,

 whether it be on this committee or anybody
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 watching, that would admit that they're using the

 ports to let containers sit just because that's

 what they want to do.

 You know, everybody has full intentions

 to get these containers out. But if we physically

 can't get in, drivers are sitting for extra hours,

 there's additional costs that are already coming

 to us on a regular basis, this just adds fuel to

 the fire to all the millions of dollars that are

 being out late today for detention and demurrage

 fees or driver detention sitting just because they

 can't get a single move done in a day. So, you

 know, I think this is something that really needs

 to be looked into.

 MR. RICHMOND: Brian Bumpass?

 MR. BUMPASS: Yeah, just a couple of

 points. You know, in response to Bob and Sean and

 Chris, who all kind of raised the similar issue of

 -- or question of, you know, prioritization of

 talking points or agenda items, you know, I would

 love to see the submissions of talking points, and

 my gut tells me that there's going to be a lot of
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 similarities between each respective list from the

 individuals. You know, I think the -- you know,

 perhaps the most effective way of moving forward

 in the future meetings, which will certainly have

 different formats than this one, I believe, is to

 organize those into, you know, like buckets

 basically and then prioritize those. We have to

 run it by a test to see if they're viable and

 within the FMC scope to actually do anything with.

 And if the answer to that is no, it kind of kills

 any discussion on that item. But then a scheduled

 debate with the creation of agendas for subsequent

 meetings, you know, this is a -- kind of a

 different setting. I think we're all getting used

 to, obviously, you know, large virtual meetings

 like this in the setting. And it's not

 necessarily, you know, encouraging a lot of debate

 back and forth, although I think today, out of the

 gates, we all pretty much agree that there's

 problems, and we all agree on what those problems

 are. But, you know, it would be great if we could

 again prioritize those issues, schedule them on
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 the agenda, and then have thorough debate with

 true conflict. I think, you know, the best

 recommendations are going to come out of

 disagreement, as long as it's professional. And

 hopefully, we can keep it that way.

 On the topic of cargo fees, I fully

 agree with what Chris just said, and certainly

 with what Rick was saying. You know, fees always

 come back down to the shipper. You know, stuff

 rolls downhill. And, you know, I have a very hard

 time accepting any additional costs, especially

 for bottlenecks or inefficiencies that I have no

 role in creating. It seems to my -- you know, at

 least in my perspective, carriers kind of want to

 have their cake and eat it too. I don't know

 about the rest of you. My cargo is

 extraordinarily unattractive to ocean carriers.

 It's all heavy. I moved 20-foot containers, and

 half of it is hazardous, and I don't want to pay

 anything. So, I understand that my cargo is by no

 means what they're looking for to wheel on ships.

 However, it is essential, you know, to our
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 economic health, to food, to pharmaceuticals, to

 cosmetics, to national security in many cases.

 And we have POs that are sitting at dock in origin

 in Asia since March or April of this year that

 still can't get a booking confirmation because the

 cargo is being discriminated to that degree.

 You know, so, it's sort of nonsensical

 to me to accept an additional fee while the

 carriers are still not doing their side of the

 equation for contractual language. We have space

 allocations that haven't been honored. There's no

 reciprocity in liquidated damages. And so, at

 least from our perspective, you know, we really

 won't accept any additional charges until there

 are some level of equity back -- you know, that

 plays back into the equation. I do think --

 Dylan, correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think

 that this falls squarely on the FMC's ability to

 broker change with this new fee in Los

 Angeles/Long Beach, you know, and certainly

 bringing equity back to the table in terms of how

 freight is booked and carried without
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 discriminatory practices placed on container size

 or container weigh or the nature of, you know,

 whether there's the hazard on those products.

 MR. RICHMOND: We will have to -- pardon

 me. We will have to get back to you on that fee

 issue. I have been honestly not paying attention

 to much anything besides this for the past few

 days, so I can't really comment on that. But a

 good point. Justin Cauley, you -- did you want to

 raise some points or --

 MR. CAULEY: Yeah, I just messaged you.

 Yeah, I agree with the points of the subgroup

 committees that we should really kind of, as they

 said, pick out a few of the top whole points and

 maybe we submit them and we can vote on which ones

 we have more of passion for. And from that, we

 can work in smaller groups where there is that

 natural debate and that conflict where the best

 ideas come out. That's really kind of the only

 other thought I had, is it -- I agree this large

 group setting, it's just difficult to have some of

 those maybe deeper conversations.
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 MR. RICHMOND: Debb Minskey?

 MS. MINSKEY: The only thing to add

 related to the charges is the process to get them

 back and to be able to identify we're -- what

 we're doing with the charges. Meaning, if the

 port is shut out an empty return, and then you

 can't pick up a loaded container, because you

 can't take the empty and to reuse the chassis,

 there's a cost associated with that and should

 that be on the BCO that can pick up a container,

 because they can't return it empty. And how we

 can kind of map that out to make it more effective

 for something that the FMC definitely said they

 can support, but it's hard for them to be able to

 support today with the current structure of how it

 works with empty returns and loads out in the

 supply chain. So, just as a thought and, you

 know, again, something else maybe to add to this

 list we're talking about, but that's the cost is

 just one part of it.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Debb. All right.

 Ken O'Brien?
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 MR. O'BRIEN: Thanks, Dylan. You know,

 listening to a lot of the comments, as I think

 about the cargo fees, you know, I guess that core

 question is, is this group have the ability to

 recommend, or would we recommend that you should

 either regulate or legislate common sense approach

 to cargo charges? And I think that is -- there's

 a big question as to, you know, many of us with

 our views on, is that really, you know, a good

 thing? I for one, I'm not a big fan of

 overregulating anything. But at the same time, I

 think these cargo charges, there's a core tenant

 in equity, which is, is it fair and impartial and

 neutrality?

 And so, you know, what was done this

 week by the ports of L.A./Long Beach is

 effectively an indirect tax on the American

 consumer. I think quite simply, you know, should

 we make a recommendation, or is there a debatable

 point that says that, you know, charges are -- you

 know, be them pass through charges, cost recovery

 charges, are they deterrence? Are they
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 incentives? Or are they just profit? And so, in

 the case of this fee, I mean, I looked quite

 simply, I'm -- in the middle of dealing, I'll use

 a one container story to tell a larger idea.

 I just dealt with a container that's

 been sitting in the Port of L.A. for 59 days

 waiting to go on a train. Should that shipper

 have paid for that after three days? As the rule

 somewhat dictates, it would. Somewhere between

 the terminal operator, one of the two class one

 rails and the port rail, it just didn't happen.

 So, I would argue that any charge that it created

 that sort of fact pattern where that shipper

 should ultimately pay for something like that is

 bad policy. And I think ultimately the regulator

 in charge of maritime policy should not allow

 things like that to happen. And so, if we don't

 set that up, and so how do you do that? I think

 it's really about, again, this group making strong

 recommendations. It's like, you know, is there a

 role for the Federal Maritime Commission to weigh

 in on if a policy is helping or hurting?
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 You know, I think, Gabriel, you just

 talked about, you know, arrival notices as a

 courtesy. Well, if we all think that those are a

 piece of the puzzle that helped us to create cargo

 velocity, I'd say they shouldn't be a courtesy.

 They should be a requirement. I think certainly I

 see it on empty returns, I would say. You know,

 when I fly out tonight, I have to return a rental

 car. If they're not going to tell me where it has

 to go back to, it might be pretty hard to make my

 flight. And so, should there be a mandatory rule

 that says you have to tell us where the empty

 goes? There's a lot of hard parts that had been

 on the terminal side and on the liner side. I

 understand the complexities of that, but if we

 believe that at national level that that would

 increase velocity and fluidity, then maybe those

 are the sorts of recommendations this group should

 make. And then the steps that have to happen to

 enact that can occur. But I think we have to come

 up with some tacit. What are those roadblocks

 that we see? What would change them? And then
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 how do those policies change as opposed to just

 putting the layering on a fee, right? I mean, a

 fee is a simple solution, but it's really just a

 tax. It doesn't actually fix the core problem.

 It just creates a bucket of money. Thanks, Dylan.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Ken. And

 actually, I wanted to follow up on your remark on

 government and fluidity. The final item I'd sort

 of like to touch on this afternoon is sort of the

 current state of the supply chain. I've sort of

 been talked about this whole time, but in

 particular the Commission is interested in

 hearing, as Chairman Maffei noted earlier, how

 government or how government agencies can help or

 hinder fluidity.

 With that, Scott Fremont?

 MR. FREMONT: Thank you. I won't touch

 on that. And just one other quick comment from a

 learning standpoint. So, we've talked a lot about

 -- and I think really good points on what we've

 done lately with the -- excuse me, with the scope

 of the FMC and the different things that we can do
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 within our scope here. But also curious, I'll

 refer to Brian and Mike as the chair and vice

 Chair, if we'd be able to get, you know, a

 pre-read next time of like, what has been tried

 and failed in the past? Like, these aren't new

 issues. You know, I know a few years ago there

 was a transportation bill, the FAST Act had a port

 metric provision in it, and that was quietly

 killed behind the scenes. So, I think it would

 also be important to kind of learn and study and

 understand like, what has been tried before and

 failed, and maybe things are different now, or

 should we be learning and adjusting from that?

 So, again, you know, Brian and Mike, your guys'

 call on that one, but I think that'd be good for

 us to know, so we don't try and do something that

 has been tried in the past and has failed.

 MR. RICHMOND: Rich Roche, I saw your

 hand up. I don't know if you still wanted to

 speak or --

 MR. ROCHE: Yeah, I was actually still

 on the cost bullet there. Just looking at, you
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 know, the FMC has done some valiant work, and

 putting forward the interpretive rule last year,

 you know, we have Ostra coming out to potentially

 try to codify some of the aspects of the

 interpretive rule. I think there's a lot of

 frustration that some of the points that that rule

 covers are being largely ignored by carriers

 and/or terminals. And there does not seem to be

 an adequate dispute resolution process, even

 though (inaudible) had posted, you know, dispute

 resolutions, some of those links are broken. They

 don't point directly to anything but a website in

 some cases. And, you know, we have a gun against

 our head to pay these fees. And when we do get

 into disputes, you know, another aspect of this

 is, you know, how can we make changers maybe more

 effective as a resolution arm of the FMC. So, all

 of these, I think, are things that we need to add

 to our lists. You know, Ostra may not actually

 come to be for another year or more. And so, we

 do also have an ANPRM that stood out from the FMC

 shortly, you know, how that will address a couple
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 of these points, maybe, you know, we'll be

 influential in helping really mold that, and I

 hope we are, but those would just be my points of

 -- to finish up the conversation on fees. Thanks.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Sean Healy?

 MR. HEALY: Yeah, just a quick couple

 things. You know, the empty return topic has come

 up here quite a bit as an issue, and we know the

 terminals are flooded with empty containers. You

 know, just thinking as we have 12 of the largest

 importers and 12 of the largest exporters in the

 country on this committee, you know, how do we

 incentivize straight returns, which would solve

 some of that issue about an empty return, right?

 And it would save on drayage runs and drayage

 costs as well. So, just throwing that out, how do

 we incentivize returns? It's something that we've

 tried to do many times to varying degrees of

 success, because sometimes the importers don't

 want to share the information with the exporters

 on what their forecast is containers. But I think

 there's real opportunity there if maybe this
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 committee can identify that as an opportunity and

 a topic.

 Last thing I had, and I think maybe

 Steven Hughes had brought this up, about the

 charges being filed on such short notice. And I'd

 be curious to see what the responses from the FMC

 the 30-day filing requirements on those searches.

 Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you. Adnan Qadri?

 MR. QADRI: Just a couple of quick

 points. And so, one, maybe just a suggestion for

 Michael and Brian, as you're kind of looking at

 the list of all of the core issues that the teams

 have provided that -- overall, it might be a good

 one to maybe just kind of -- as you consolidate

 them and kind of bucketize them, it might be a

 good one to maybe put those out towards with the

 committee to see which ones, you know, kind of --

 that most are kind of interested in kind of

 following up and supporting and then maybe using

 that as a way to get it balancing that against the

 FMC charter to kind of identify the four or five
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 critical issues that we're going to go after, and

 then we can potentially build, you know, five or

 six-member subcommittees to kind of start working

 behind the scene on those. I think that might be

 a useful piece to kind of look at as a

 recommendation on how to kind of move forward.

 And I also wanted to kind of talk a

 little bit about the second topic that we were

 talking about, the detention and demurrage

 component of it. And I think Ken touched on this

 a little bit. Like in the past, like the whole

 idea behind detention and demurrage pieces was,

 how do you incentivize faster turns into returning

 equipment and bringing fluidity into the network

 and the supply chain? Right? In the -- in its

 current state, and the way current -- the supply

 chains are moving right now, I don't think that

 D&D is actually incentivizing anything. It's not

 -- I don't think there is a way for it to

 incentivize particularly, you know, like folks are

 not sitting on container returns, because they

 want to write or they don't -- they're primarily
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 sitting on it, because they don't have a way to

 kind of get those containers returned and those

 empties returned, and get that volume and fluidity

 back into the cycle.

 And it's very difficult to wrap our

 heads around this idea of these detention and

 demurrage charges, which are not necessarily kind

 of making the process any better. And they're

 actually not driving any kind of positive behavior

 in -- currently in the way the supply chain is

 currently set up. And that concerns me a little

 bit, though, if you were saying that, hey, we're

 going to take this -- you know, we're going to

 take these charges, and we're going to use these

 to make the overall supply chain better. Right?

 And we're going to take this, and I think the BCOs

 might -- and the -- generally, the shippers will

 feel a little bit better about those, but I don't

 know -- I don't think there's a lot of

 transparency on these charges and how they're

 actually and where they're actually driving in

 terms of, you know, the supply chain benefit. I
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 don't -- in its current state, that's what

 concerns me the most, is that we are -- most of

 these charges don't necessarily help us improve

 our supply chains in the long run. And I don't

 think they're actually driving any benefit to the

 current state that we are in. So, just a thought

 on that.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thanks, Adnan. Josh

 Woods?

 MR. WOODS: Yeah, I want to touch on --

 I'll briefly touch on detention and demurrage. I

 don't want to repeat what a lot of my peers have

 said.

 You know, the one thing about detention

 and demurrage is, again, the lack of data. So,

 right now, the burden of proof really stands on

 the shoulders of the BCO to prove whether it's

 accurate or not, right? And one thing that we

 can't undersell, I think, is the magnitude of what

 we're talking about. Right? It's -- to think

 about, it's just randomly 5,400 containers on the

 ocean of those -- or container ships. So, of
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 those container ships, how many containers are on

 those ships, right? The actual tracking and

 tracing of those containers is significant.

 You know, and so, again, the -- we -- as

 a -- I think as a committee and a council, we have

 to be able to quantify how big of a -- for lack of

 a better term, a journey it is to even get to the

 level of detail that we should be requiring in

 order for shippers -- or sorry, in order for

 vessel operators to charge us these fees, you

 know. And, you know, I truly believe that if the

 data says that those fees are accurate and true,

 yeah, you should pay them. As far as regulating

 that, and I don't know if I necessarily have an

 opinion about that, but I think that in order for

 us to be able to say that we should or shouldn't

 be paying these penalties or these fees, we have

 to have the data behind it and we just don't. So,

 right now, what that really boils down to is not

 only, you know, shippers like everybody on this

 council, but shippers across the country are now

 being forced to try to prove that they do or don't
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 owe -- or they don't owe these penalties.

 You know, so I'll pause on that, because

 that really circles back to what I was saying

 about having a data collection plan and really

 forcing rules of engagement from a data

 perspective with our international sea freight

 partners. But what I really wanted to touch on

 is, you know, what do I think, you know, the --

 you know, whether it's government or, you know,

 any kind of agency helps or hinders these

 processes is, you know -- and I think -- and we

 touched on it earlier in this meeting, and that is

 the cross-functional engagement. You know, this I

 think -- kudos to the FMC, right? I mean, this is

 the first step. But think about all of the other

 agencies out there, like DOT, you know, if you

 think about at the more private level, you think

 about like the Truckers Association. You know, so

 a lot of the cross-functional engagement, again,

 is going to be required, I feel like, and is

 needed in order to help the situation along simply

 because this isn't only a Federal Maritime
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 Commission problem, right? I think this is a DOT.

 This is a FMC. This is a USDA. This is a problem

 that has the magnitude beyond anything I don't

 believe any of us have ever seen. And it's going

 to take that type of engagement in order to help

 move progress along.

 And so -- and I know that's a little bit

 high level and vague, but, you know, if you ask me

 from my perspective what I think the -- you know,

 the government and agencies are doing to hinder

 and help. To hinder is I think there's a little

 less cross-functional engagement than there

 probably should be. And then to help, I think

 there needs to be more cross-functional

 engagement, because that's ultimately how we're

 going to, you know, start plugging the holes in

 the dam.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, Josh. Gabriel

 Rodriguez, I will get to you in a second. I want

 to note that we are sort of getting towards the

 end of our discussion time. So, after Gabriel

 goes, I'll see if Mike or Brian have any comments
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 they would like to make. And then we'll sort of

 go from there.

 All right. Gabriel Rodriguez?

 MR. RODRIGUEZ: My comments regarding

 demurrage and detention kind of flow a little bit

 from what Josh just said. You know, as a

 day-to-day practitioner, being a customs broker,

 I'd pay the actual demurrage and detention

 directly to the lines and the carriers, and argue

 the point, and look at that data on a day-to-day

 basis.

 And, you know, just as a small piece of

 like -- of data to see where we were to where we

 are, we did a quick analysis here. August 15th to

 September 15th last year, over this year, there

 was a 15-fold increase from last year to this year

 in the amount of demurrage that we paid on behalf

 of our customers. And as a small company, I'd

 pride myself on making sure our customers don't

 pay demurrage.

 But as we analyze the situation, I'd go

 back to a quick comment that Brian made. You
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 know, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 And that's exactly what's going on right now, is

 unfortunately, we're paying a lot of demurrage and

 detention for circumstances we have absolutely no

 control over. And the carriers, terminals, and

 other parties are basically, you know, forcing you

 to play by the rules, but not playing by the rules

 themselves. In the sense of, you know, if you've

 got four days of free time at a particular port or

 a terminal, you know, then make the container

 available and make it accessible within those four

 days. Don't start charging me free time, you

 know, with the container not really being

 available, and then we have to chase you down to

 update the free days and go through that process.

 And I think a lot of that happens within

 what's going on right now similar to, you know,

 per diem charges. You can't return a container

 four months down the line you get an invoice for

 not having returned that container, then you got

 to go back to the carrier and prove to them that

 you tried to return the container. So, there's a
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 lot of circumstances like that that, you know,

 occur in the day-to-day activity that I think if

 we were able to make some recommendations to allow

 there to be some sort of manner in which either

 the carriers and terminals start playing by the

 rules, or, you know, something like what I did

 here, I called up my local FMC office and I said,

 you know, hey, there's a theft. And they said,

 yeah, we're not the cops. And I said, well, you

 guys got to operate in some way, shape, or form to

 help me out here, because what's going on is akin

 to a theft, right? You know, we're paying for

 stuff that we have absolutely no control over.

 So, as we develop these conversations, I think

 that statement of having your cake and eating it,

 too, is something that we need to dive into and

 see how we can, you know, maybe change a little

 bit of how those roles are played by. So, thank

 you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Okay. Thank you. Brian,

 could you -- calling you since you're the chair

 here.
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 MR. BUMPASS: Well, I just wanted to

 thank everybody for their comments. I've got some

 copious notes here both on what we talked about

 today, but also on some requests that each of you

 made for kind of the future meetings. And I

 really appreciate the input and the leadership

 that all of you showed today. You know, certainly

 -- Dylan, I don't know that I have contact

 information for everybody on the committee. But

 if I -- if you can make that available to make,

 I'd like to reach out to each one of them

 individually and just share my contact information

 as well. I believe an open-door policy, so if

 there's anything that I can do, anything that you

 guys have requested for agendas -- I'm sure

 Michael, to keep an open door as well, but, you

 know, I'd really appreciate your involvement and

 your support. Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Mike?

 MR. SYMONANIS: Yeah, I guess just

 echoing what Brian said, we're not the gatekeepers

 of priority here, right? This is 24 people
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 working together. We're going to try to make sure

 we work together closely. And so, I think, you

 know, I -- like, he want to have transparency.

 So, I -- to Bob's point, everything that's been

 suggested, I think we'd float it to everybody and

 look for commonality, consensus, and where there's

 traction. I know that the suggestions by Sean and

 others on the working groups make sense too,

 because some things may not be as pressing for

 you. But yet, it's important that you're engaged

 on the things that are engaged for you and your

 organization and your industry vertical.

 What do we want from a meeting frequency

 standpoint? Ultimately, how do we, you know, get

 some of these other things in place? And, you

 know, what Scott said, you know, what's already

 been looked at and reviewed, so we don't go down

 along paths. And there's been a bunch of work

 done on it already. And really more get inside of

 what may be why it wasn't feasible at the time it

 was suggested, right, or what's kept it from

 getting forward. So, I think to be more informed
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 as we look at the universe of things we're

 focusing on, I think, is important.

 So, I look forward to working with

 everybody. I agree with Brian. Let's get your

 private contact information, so we can engage in a

 more dynamic way as we move forward out of this

 and ready to roll in the areas that make sense for

 all of us.

 MR. RICHMOND: Thank you, guys.

 Regarding the meeting frequency, the only mandate

 that's in the charter is that the full committee

 will meet once -- at least once a year. I think

 we sort of assumed that the meetings may be more

 frequent than that, but I was going to leave that

 up to you all as to the frequency to the meeting

 schedule.

 We also have the committee has the use

 of Zoom to use for its meetings. There I imagine

 will be an opportunity for in-person meetings in

 the not too distant future, but I'm not going to

 promise anything on that right now.

 The next agenda item I have is a summary
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 of written comments. Because this is -- this

 committee is an advisory committee subject to the

 Federal Advisory Committee Act rules, there is

 always an opportunity for the public comment and

 to submit written comments to the committee. If

 we are doing it in person, there sometimes are

 opportunities for the public to present directly

 to the committee at their meetings. We are not

 doing that today, because of the nature of Zoom.

 But I will report that the committee received no

 comments so far. And as they do, I will sort of

 share it with the chair and vice chair and sort of

 distribute it through them.

 With that being said, I believe it sort

 of concludes the meeting. I want to thank the

 committee members for attending today. I hope you

 all found the discussions fruitful. I want to

 thank all the participants who logged on to view.

 I hope you also thought that was an engaging

 session. And I want to thank, of course, the

 Chairman and the commissioners for helping set

 this up.
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 And so, with that, I believe that

 concludes the first meeting. So, thank you all

 for attending. And I will be in touch with the

 committee soon.

 MS. JACOBSON: Thank you.

 MS. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

 MS. MINSKEY: Thank you.

 MR. RICHMOND: Yeah.

 (Whereupon, at 3:50 p.m., the

 PROCEEDINGS were adjourned.)

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