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National Shipper Advisory Committee

Committee Meeting

Washington, DC

November 16, 2023

1:00 pm Eastern Time

Minutes

Introduction and Determination of Quorum

Dylan Richmond, the Designated Federal Officer (DFO) for the NSAC, called the 

meeting to order and gave noticed that the meeting is being recorded. Items on the agenda 

today will be discussed, then the meeting will move to public comment. He reminded those 

in attendance that meeting minutes are published per the requirements of FACA and the 

recording of the meeting will be made available after the meeting. The NSAC members were 

reminded that antitrust laws apply to them and that they cannot speak on behalf of the 

committee, the FMC, or the federal government outside of an official meeting of the NSAC. 

The DFO confirmed a quorum. 

Remarks from NSAC Leadership

Michael Symonanis, the NSAC Chair, thanked everyone for joining the meeting and for 

the intervening work since the last meeting. He highlighted the eight high-impact 

recommendations affecting the supply chain over the last two years and that the NSAC is

waiting for feedback on some items. Looking ahead there is opportunity to think bigger.

Although the NSAC is comprised of 24 members of the shipping public it is trying to engage 

with a greater number of shippers for better and broader dialogue within the system.

Kenneth O’Brien, NSAC Vice Chair, considered the impact of the NSAC and stated that 

the supply chain is no more resilient than it was three years ago. He said the NSAC has tried 

to deal with tactics, such as demurrage issues; however, it needs to start to think about 

systemic problems, such as with ports and railroads. If the overall system is broken the rest is 

window dressing. In their last year current members should try to figure out what the system 

problems are and to drive the conversation towards helping resolve those issues. 

Maritime Transportation Data Initiative Update

Federal Maritime Commissioner, Carl Bentzel, thanked members for their work. In his 

opening statement he acknowledged the periodic major meltdowns in ocean shipping. He

stated his belief that this will become more frequent due to the greater volume and increasing 

utilization of containers, the use of larger vessels, general congestion, and the lack of space to 

expand at many ports. Any disruption to the system, whether it be a railroad issue, 

insufficient chassis, or geopolitical issues have the potential to create a cascading effect

throughout the supply chain. The industry needs to come up with policies that will help 

ameliorate the problems even though they may not resolve the problem completely.
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To this end, Commissioner Bentzel stated the need for better information on cargo 

system. The FMC regulates $6 trillion of economic activity and steps to strengthen resiliency

are needed. Another impact from the problems with the supply chain is inflation, to which 

port congestion was a contributor according to him. Commissioner Bentzel also reiterated his 

belief that the FMC has jurisdiction over intermodal as it pertains to through bills of lading.

For further improvement to the system, several key pieces of information need to be known 

and shared with the relevant supply chain actors:

- Real time schedules provided by the carriers.

- Arrival/Departure times for trains.

- When intermodal freight is going in or out.

- When ships are repositioned in the port complex.

- When there is loading or unloading being conducted at each berth. 

- When cargo is available or is on government hold. 

The Maritime Transportation Data Initiative has released the first set of questions to 

receive feedback from the public via a Request for Information (RFI) and responses have 

begun to come in. Commissioner Bentzel expects a second set of questions to be released

soon. He noted that it is key to ensure that cargo information remains confidential, while also 

harmonizing the terminology. Furthermore, he emphasized his work with marine terminal 

operators and ocean carriers to ensure any solicited information is something that they could 

provide.

NSAC members engaged in a Q&A with Commissioner Bentzel following his remarks. 

They asked about the responses received so far from the RFI. He shared that some commenters 

noted a standard cutoff date of 5 days from when a carrier serves a particular shipper. Comments

supported suggestions in the MTDI, although some commenters stated that setting data standards

is not within the FMC’s jurisdiction.

Responding to inquiries on existing data issues, Commissioner Bentzel stated that parties 

should not be sharing information on items they really don’t know. He noted that many parties 

share information on cargo availability that is inaccurate. He stated that carriers have primary 

responsibility for data accuracy, although sometimes third parties have that responsibility. It 

should be the party in possession of the accurate data that should share the information on 

container status. The industry also needs methods to ensure third-party information is accurate. 

Looking to the future, Commissioner Bentzel stated he wants to make the sharing of certain data 

elements a requirement. He noted that he had talked to the FMC Chairman about conducting 

public outreach around this and hopefully would start this process next year. He noted that this 

process would require setting guidelines will take time, and that any regulations that may arise 

out of this effort would be later.

Commissioner Bentzel has spoken with the Data and Visibility Subcommittee. He noted 

that he is looking at cargo availability and receiving dates, which confer legal status on cargo 

movement. He stated that the necessary parties will have to think about whether to move some of 

the ideas that may improve efficiency forward.
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Subcommittee Updates

Fees/Surcharges Subcommittee Discussion

The Subcommittee Chair, Rich Roche, said the team is currently in a holding pattern until 

the agency’s demurrage and detention rulemaking is complete. Highlighting the group’s past 

accomplishments, he stated that their subcommittee has issued four recommendations and one 

set of comments. 

Rail storage continues to be an issue of importance to the subcommittee and for the 

supply chain. He noted that at least 77 trade organizations have signed a letter to Congress 

outlining the issues around rail storage fees being billed directly to shippers without authority. 

During a brief Q&A, he noted that excess dwell fees at the ports of Los Angeles and 

Long Beach are still on the books and are assessed at the terminal level. Some members noted 

they are not currently affected by similar fees given how fluid their networks are. On the issue of 

service contracts, the subcommittee is not currently considering how these influence outcomes 

related to the incentive principle. They noted however, they are open to suggestions on this or 

other issues they should consider from the public. 

Data/Visibility Subcommittee Discussion

The Subcommittee Chair, Gabriel Rodriguez, stated there is not much new information 

from the team. They continue to meet biweekly.

Chassis Subcommittee Discussion

The Subcommittee Vice Chair, Debb Minskey, stated the Subcommittee is also in a 

holding pattern. They are awaiting the resolution of the ongoing ATA / OCEMA lawsuit

regarding chassis before continuing their work and making any recommendations. The team has 

had good meetings with stakeholders related to chassis issues including the FMC, General 

Lyons, and members at the University of New Orleans that are currently conducting a chassis 

study. 

Data and Chassis Organizations

The NSAC invited several organizations to provide brief updates to the Committee. All 

presentations can be found on the NSAC webpage.

ASTM International F49 Committee

• Jeffrey Weiss, Partner, Steptoe & Johnson LLP

This organization is a data standardizer recognized by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Commissioner Bentzel is member of the committee. Members also 

come from academia, the private and public sectors. This committee ensures that the process is 

balanced among membership for balanced outcome and recs. They aim to develop common 

terminology and to fill in gaps in standardization efforts by summer 2024.
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Digital Container Shipping Association

• Dominique Willems, Head of Public Affairs

This organization is setting standards for container shipping. They solicit comment from 

a wide range of stakeholders and try to avoid reinventing the wheel. Standards are made in 

consultation with ports, terminals, freight forwarders and others in the shipping industry. DCSA 

identified where their Commercial Schedules release will cover 35 of 39 data elements from the 

Data Subcommittee Vessel Level Data recommendations sent to FMC after the NSAC December

2022 meeting and which four are not.

North American Chassis Pool Cooperative (NACPC)

• Dave Manning, President, and CEO, talking on Memphis pool of choice.

This organization supplies chassis and is completely owned by motor carriers. They 

operate an interoperable pool in Memphis, with multiple contributors, and are trying to improve 

the interoperable pool experience. That means that chassis users can still choose the operator 

with whom they do business. This industry initiative aligns with the work undertaken by 

Commissioner Rebecca Dye that started in 2016.

NSAC Administrative Updates

The NSAC Chair stated the Committee is trying to have the 2024 meeting schedule 

finalized. The plan for the Q1 2024 meeting is for it to be at the TPM Conference in Long Beach, 

CA. The Committee will work with the DFO to arrange this session.

Public Comment Period

The floor was opened to public comment. No one in attendance made a comment during 

this period, and none were received prior to the meeting via email. 

Closing Remarks

• Michael Symonanis, NSAC Chair

• Kenneth O’Brien, NSAC Vice Chair