• 

1874 . . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5169 

Mr. G. F. HOAR. The conference report was voted upon. There was a little debate with the gentleman from Kentucky, [Mr. BECJr,] and 

the previous question was seconded on agreeing to the report. There was a debate and a vote. Now if that action was had in rega<rd to one conference report, it might be had in regard to two or three or more. 

The SPEAKER. Certainly; in regard to a hundred. 

Mr. G. F. HOAR. Does the Chair then rule that after a motion to 

suspend the rules has been made and a motion to adjourn has been 

voted down, ten successive conference reports may come in, be read, 

debated, have the previous question ordereu on them anu be voted on, 

and that the House cannot adjourn without disposing of that motion 

to suspend the rules 7 

The SPEAKER. What is suggested by the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. G. F. HoAR] does not present the slightest difficulty; 

because the House, if it wants to adjourn, need not second the motion 

to suspend the rules. It does not embarrass the House at all. 

Mr. G. F. HOAR. The House may not want to vote against the 

suspension of the rules, but may desire to adjourn and postpone the 

question as to the suspension of the rules till next day. 

The SPEAKER. This is a question which never before arose. But 

the Chair is always willing to rule in favor of au adjournment, although he believes that in doing so he rules against t.he literal mean- ing of the rule. The Chair will submit the question on the motion to 

adjourn in consideration of the fact that some misunderstanding has 

arisen in the minds of various members as to the true position of the 

pending question. 

The question being taken on the motion of :Mr. WILso~, of Iowa., 

that the House adjourn, there were-ayes 83, noes 92 . Mr. WILSON, of Iowa, called for tellers. 

Tellers were ordered. 

The House again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 88, noes 73. 

Mr. PARKER, of Missouri, called for the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 135, nays 88, not 

voting 66; as follows: 

YEAS-Messrs. Adams, Archer, Ashe, Atkins, Banning, Barber, Barrere, Barry, 

Bell, Berry, .Bland, Blount, Bromberg, Bnffinton, Burchard, Burrows, Benjamin F. 

Butler, Cain, Caldwell, Cannon, Cessna, Amos Clark,jr., John B. Clark, jr., Cly· mer, Stephen A. Cobb, Comingo, Conger, Cook, CottQn, Creruner, Crittenden, 

Crocker, Crooke, Crossland, Crounse, Da.rrall, Davis, Dawes, Eldredge, Giddings, Glover, Gooch, Gunter, Hamilton, Benjamin W. Harris, Henry R. Harris, Hatcher, 

John B. Hawley, Hendee, Hereford, E. Rockwood Hoar, George F. Hoar, Hol- man, Howe, Hunton, Hurlbut, Jewett, Kelley, Killinger, Knapp, Lamison, Le.:wh, 

Lowntles, Lynch, Magee, Martin, Maynard, Jmnes W. McDill, McLean, MciTiam, 

Milliken. Mills, Mom·oe, Moore, Myers, Neal Nuun, O'Brien, O'~eill, Orth, Packard, Phelps, Pierce, Pike, Thomas C. Platt, Potter, Pratt, Rainey, Randall, Ran- sier Read, Rice, Robbins, Ellis H. Roberts, James W. Robinson, Ross, Milton 

Sayier, John G. Schumaker, Henry J. Scutlder, Isaac W . Scndrler, Sener, ~ssions, Shanks, Sheldon, Sloss, Small, A. Herr Smith, George L. Smith, John Q. Smit-h, 

Southard, Speer, Spraguet.J?tone, Storm, Swann, Sypher, Christopher Y. Thomas, 

Tremain, Tyner, Vance, waldron. Wallace, Jasper D. Ward, Marcus L. Ward, 

Wheeler, Whitehouse1 Charles W. Willard, George Willard, Charles G. Williams, 

William Williams, Willie, Ephraim K. Wilson, .T.'liDes Wilson, Wolfe, and W ootl- ford-135. 

NAYS-Messrs. Albri~t, Arthur. Averill, Beck, Begole, Biery, Bowen, Bradley, Bright, Brown, Bundy, .Kotlerick R. Butler, Cason, Clements, Cobm·n, Corwin, 

Crutchfield, Donnan, Dunnell, Durham, Eames, Field, Fort, Foster, Gunckel, 

Hagans, Harmer, John T. Harris Harrison, Havens, Joseph R. Hawley, Gerry W. 

Hazelton, John W. Hazelton, HoJ.ges, Hooper, Hoskins, Houghton, Htmter, Hyde, 

HyneS;.._ Ka-sson, Keilo~~· Kendall, Lamport, Lawrence, Lawson, Lowe, Alexander 

S. MclJill, MacDouga.u, McJunkin, McNulta, Morey, Morrison, Nibla.ck, Niles, 

Orr, Packer, Hosea W. Parker, lsaa.c C. Parker, :I>arsons, Pendleton, Poland, 

Rapier, Ra.y, Richmond, Rusk, Sawyer, Henry B. Sayler, Sherwood, Sloan, Stanard, 

Staniliford, Starkweather, St. John, Stowell, Strait., Strawbridge, Thornburgh, 

Todd, Townsend, Wells, White, Whitehead, Whiteley, Whitthorne, Wilber, Wil· liam B. Williams. and John D. Younu-88. 

NOT VOTING- Messrs. AlbBrt '13arnum, Bass, Buckner, Burlei.,.h, Freeman Clarke, Clayton, Clinton L. Cobb, Cox, Curtis, Danford, DeWitt~ Dobbins, Duell, 

Eden, Elliott, Farwell, Freeman, Frye, Garfield, Eugene Hale, RobertS. Hale, Han- cock, Hathorn, Hays, Herndon, Hersey, Hubbell, Lamar, Lansing, Lewis, Lofland, Li>ughridge, Luttrell, Marshall, McCrary, McKee, Mitchell, Negley, "e· 

smith, P~e, Pelham, Perry, Phillips, James fi . Platt, Jr., Purman, William R. 

Roberts, James C. Robinson, Scofield, Sheats, Lazarus D. Shoemaker, Smart, H. 

Boardman Smith, J. Ambler Smith, \Villiam A. Smith, Snyder, St-ephens, Taylor, 

Charles R. Thomas, Waddell, Walls, John M. S. Williams, Jeremiah M. Wilson, 

Wood, Woodworth, and Pierce M. B. Young-66. 

So the motion was agreed to. 

Before the result of the vote was annotmced, 

The SPEAKER said: The Chair does not regard the point a.s of 

much practical importance, but he desires to say, in order that it may 

go into the RECORD, that in submitting this motion it was his Judgment that it was not in order. He submitted it rather than insist on his own construction of the rule, because there seemed to be a misunderstanding in the House' in regard to it. 

1\h. HAZELTON, of Wisconsin. I ask unanimous consent that 

this motion may be regarded as one for a recess instead of an ad- journment so ItS to save the session for this evening. 

Mr. SPEER. I object. 

The House (at three o'clock and twenty minutes p. m.) then adjourned. 

PETITIONS. 'ETC. 

The following memorials, petitions, and other papers were pre- sented at the Clerk's desk, under the rule, and referred as stated: 

By Mr. S~ITTH, of Pennsylvania : The petition of workingmen in 

324 

M:uietta Furnace, La.ncaster County, Pennsylvania, for the restoration of the 10 per cent. duty on iron and steel, and for free banking, 

to the Committee on Ways and Means. 

Also, the remonstrance of merchants, bankers, and business men of 

Lauca ter City and County, Pennsylvania, against the imposition of a tax of -to of 1 per cent. on sales of bullion, coin, stocks, bonds, and 

other securities, to the Committee on Ways and Means .. By Mr. Sl\fiTH, of Virginia: The petition of Mrs. Elizabeth Weaver, 

of Owl Run, Fauquier County, Virginia, for relief, to the Cornmittee 

on 'Var Claims. 

By Mr. YOUNG, of Kentucky: The petition of G. H . Wornok, John 

Doty, C. Culbertson, B. L. Biggs, David Williams, John· Kidd, Charles 

Boss, William J. Wilson, and a large number of other workingmen in 

the Buffalo and Laurel Furnace Works in Greenup County, Kentucky, 

for the restoration of 10 per cent. of duties on iron, steel, &c., for free 

banking, and for such protection by Congress as will relieve the dis- tressed condition of the workingmen of the country, to the Committee on Ways and Means. 

IN SENATE. 

FRIDAY, June 19, 1874. 

The Senate met at eleven o'clock a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. BYRON SuNDERLAND, D. D. The Journal of yesterday's proceedings wa-s read and approved. 

NEVADA COUNTY NARROW-GAUGE RAILROAD. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o ternpm·e laid before the Senate the bill (H. R. No. 3309) granting to the Nevada County Narrow-Gauge Railroad 

Company a right of wa.y through the public lands for a railroad. Mr. SARGENT. That same bill wa.s reported favorably as a Senate 

bill by the Committee on Railroads of the Senate and has been on the Calendar for some time. It is a local road, twenty miles long 

only, in my own county. I a.sk that the bill may be passed by tmani- mous consent. 

The bill was read· three times, and passed. 

PETITIONS AND MEMORIALS. 

:i\h. MERRIMON. I ask leave to call up a House bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I call for the regular order. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Petitions and memorials are in 

order. 

:i\h. WASHBURN presented resolutions of the Legislature of Massachusetts, in favor of the abolition of the law concerning compulsory 

pilotage at Hell Gate; which were referred to the Committee on Commerce. 1\ir. BOGY presented five petitions of merchants, importers, bank- ers, and business men of Saint Louis, Missouri, protesting against the 

passage of the twenty-ninth section of the tariff bill which imposes a tax of io of 1 per cent. on all sales of stocks, bonds, gold and silve.r 

bullion, coin, and other securities; which were referred to the Com- mittee on Finance. :i\h. SCHURZ presented the petition of Rob. zum Hagen, M. D., of 

Saint Louis, Missouri, praying an amendment to the homestead law; 

which was referred to the Committee on Public Lands. 

Mr. JOHNSTON. I ask unanimous consent to consider a bill-- Mr. ANTHONY. I rise with a report. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. That is in the nature of an objection. If there be no further petitions, reports of committees are in 

order. The PRESIDENT pro ternpo-1'e presented a resolutionof the Legisla- ture of West Virginia in favor of a geological survey of West Virginia by the Government of the United States; which was referred 

to the Committee on Public Lands. 

REPORT ON CUSTOMS A D TARIFF LEGISLATION. 

Mr. ANTHONY. The Committee on Printing, to whom was re- fen·ed a resolution of the House of Representatives to print copies of 

the report of the Chief of the Bureau of Statistics, have instructed me to report ba-ck the same with an amendment. The amended reso- lution strikes out all copies for the use of Congress and limits it to one thousand for the use of the Department. By unanimous consent, the resolution was considered. 

The amendment of the Committee on Printing was to strike out 

"five thousand copie , three thousand for the use of the House of 

Representatives, one thousandforthe Senate and," andstlike out the 

words" and distribution by;" so as to make the resolution read: 

Resolved, (the Senate concurring,) That there be printed Qf the special report of 

Edward Young, Chief of the Bureau of Statistics, on customs and tariff legislation of the United States, with the appendices, including the tariff aots approved re- spectively May 1, 1872, and June 6, 1872, and a ta.bular statement of the rates of 

duties under said acts and other statutes now in force, one thomsa.nd bound copies 

for the use of the Treasury Department. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The resolution, as amended, wa-s agreed to. 

COAST SURVEY REPORT. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I am instructed by the same committee to report 

back the resolution for printing the Coast Snrvey 1·eport. In accord-
5170 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

ance with the expre sed wish of the Senate, we have left out all 

copies for the use of the House and Senate ; and as thi Coast Survey 

report is a matter of very great importance, and the establishment is 

maintained at considerable expen e and is of comparatively little use unless ship-owners, navigators, and others can see the charts, we have -not reduced the number, but have left it at three thousand, a very 

moderate number, to be distributeu by the Superintendent of the 

Coa-st Survey. If Senators thirik that is too much they can move to 

reduce it. 

The Chief Clerk read the resolution proposed to be amended, as 

follows: 

Resolved by the S~5nate (the Hotb8e of RepTesentatives concurr·ing,) That there be 

printed of the report of the Superintendent of the Coa-st Survey for t-he year 1873, 

three thousand extra copies for the lli!e of the Superintendent of the Coast Survey. 

Mr. SHERMAl.~. I a k the Senator if these are to be stamped to 

go throuo-h the ma,il 'I 

Mr. Al~THONY. They are to be disposed of just like any other 

documents. I was not able to keep the run of the provisions in the 

bill on that Fmbject which wa-s acted on the other day, being enga-ged 

in my committee-room in an investigation. 

1\.Ir. SHERMAN. The Departments now use stamps on documents 

and frank them in that way. 

:Mr. ANTHONY. This resolution makes no provision on that subject. 

1\fr. SHERMAN. Under the law now the Departments can frank 

the documents printed for them by putting on a stamp. That ought 

to be corrected. 

Mr. ANTHONY. Can we correct it in this resolution 'I 

Mr. SHERMAN. No. 

The resolution, a-s amended, was agreed to. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I should have moved first that this report of the 

Snporintend.ent of the Coa-st Survey be printed. I make that motion 

now. The motion was agreed to. 

CRETACEOUS FLORA OF Tim WEST. 

Mr . .ANTHONY. I reported the other day a resolution from the 

Committee on Printing to print the report of Professor Hayden on the Cretaceous Flora of the West, the expense of which has all be. n incurreu except the very trifling cost of printing the letter-press, about · 600. There is no provision for any distribution to members of Congress. I hope that resolution may be now taken up and passed. I 

understand there is no objection to it. 

lly unanimous consent, the Senate procee<leu to consider the following House resolution : 

Resolved by the Hotb8e of Representatives, (the Senate conm1-ring,) That thore b 

printed and bound tw·enty.five hundred copies in quarto (tmiform of the series).of 

Professor Hayden'sre11ort on the Cretaceous Flora of the West, one thou anucop1es 

for the Department of tbe Ink>rior, one thousand copies for the mithsonian Institution, ancl five hundred copies for the ollice of the United States Geological Survey of the Territories. 

The resolution wa-s concurred in. 

BILL RECO:\Il\IITTED. 

Mr. OGLE 'BY. The RECORD of yestertla,y morning hows that the 

Senator from Iowa, [Mr. WruGirr,] "from the Committee on Finance, 

to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. :3668) for the relief of Smith 

& 1\fatthews, of Illinois,.reportcd adversely th reon ; and the bill was po tponed indefinitely," but tiJe eviuence npon which the claim was based was not before the committee when t.hey made the report. 'l'he 

claim is ouly for three or four hunrlred dollars. I ther fore move now to reconsider the vote by which the bill was indefinitely postponetl, 

an<l that it be recommitted~ the Committee on Finance. 

The motion was agreed to. 

REPORTS 01!' CO:\DIITTEES. 

1\lr. JOH.l"\TSTON, from the Committee on Patents, to whom was re- ferred the bill (H. R. No. 3424) for the relief of Thomas Winans and 

'Villiam L. Winans, reported it without amendment, and submitteu a report thereon; which was ordered to be priuteLl. 

:M:r. OGLESBY, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was re- ferred the bill (H. R. No. 3689) granting a pension to Bernard Sailer, r eported it without amendment, and suumitted a report thereon; 

which was ordered to be printed. . Ur. R.AM.SEY, from the Committee on Post-Offices and Po t-Roa<ls, 

to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 741) to provide for a commission upon the subject of postal telegraphy, reported adversely thereon; and the bill was postponed inuefinitely. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was r £erred the bill 

(S. No. 884) to amend sections 245, 246, 247, 251, and 253 of an act en- titled "An act to revise, consolidate, and amend the statutes relating 

to the Post-Office Department, approved June 8, 1872..' reported adversely thereon; and the bill was postponed indefinitely. 

He also, from the sa.me committee, to whom was referred the bill (S. 

No. U33) relating to mail contracts, reported adversely thereon; and 

the bill was postponed indefinitely. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan, from the Committee on Post-Offices and 

Post-Roads, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 692) for the 

relief of William Chester, reported it without amendment: He also, from the Committee on Finance, to whom wa-s referred 

the petition of J. E. D. Couzins, praying compensation for the arrest 

and detention of counterfeiters o.f United States notes, submitted a 

report accompanied by a bill (S. No. 958) for the relief of J. E. D. 

Conzin.s, of Saint Louis, Missouri. 

The bill wa-s read, and passed to a second reading, ancl the report was ordered to be printed. 

1\.Ir. BOUT~LL, from the Committee on Commerce, to whom was refened the b1ll (S. No.232) to regulate thefeesreceivedfrom certain 

steam-ve els sailing coastwise and foreign, reported it without 

amendment. 

Mr. HAMILTON, of Texas1 from the Committee ou Pensions, to 

whom was referred the bill (S. No. !l3) for the relief of William C. 

Greene: of Indiana,, r eported t:td versely thereon ; and the bill wa po:st- poued indefinitely. · 

. . He al o, from the same committee, to w~om was referred the petitwn of James S. ~erron and. others, prayrng that a pension may bo 

allowed to the Widow of James Herron, .of Pen n,cola, Florida, r - ported adver ely thereon, and asked to be d1scharged from its further con ideration ; which was agreed to. . 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(H. R. No. 3188) gmnting a pension to Letta Bagley, reported it without amendment. 

:Mr. WRIGH';(', from the Committee on the Judiciary, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 3621) to abolish the western district o.f 

.A.rkansas1 and for other purpo es, reported it without amendment. 

Mr. W ADLEIGB;, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 2695) for the relief of Ely Camerou 

reported it with an amendment. ' 

Mr. FENTON. I am instructed by the Committee on Finance, to 

whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 302.1) for the relief of Andrew 

Mason, to report it back with a slight amendment. I desire to put 

this bill upon its passage. It is but seven lines in all. 

:Mr. ED::\IUNDS. I object, and insist on the regular order. 

Mr. KELLY. I am in tructed by the Committee on Military Affairs, 

to whom was referred the bill(S. No. 721) for there toratiou of public 

lands in Fort Sedgwick reservation, in Colorado and Nebraska, to settlement·and entry, to report it back 'vithout amend.ment, and I shoulu 

like to have it put on its pas age. . 

Mr. ED:MmTDS. I object. I merely wish to say in eXJ"llanation of 

my evidently very bad conuuct that my ol•ject i that when we got 

through with resolutions I may ask the Senate to ~o to th e Calendar 

of unou.jected cases, o that we may go through w1th all thot>e bills with which everybOlly is satisfied, and thus we shall clo more gooc'l 

than we can by snatching up a bill atatimenow. That is my apology if I need to make one. 

1\fr. BOGY, from the Committee on Private Lanu Claims, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 3584) to grant title to certain hmd::; 

in the Territory of Arizona, reported it without amendment. 

Mr. NORWOOD, from the Committee on Pen ion , to whom wa referred the bill (H. R. No. 2900) granting a pension to Jo ephine D. 

Thomas, reported adversely thereon; anu the bill was postponed indefinitely. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom wa referr cl the bill 

(H. R. No. 330) crranting a pension to Mrs. Penelope C. Drown, of 

Tennossee, widow of Stephen C. Brown, late a private of Company 

C, Eighth Tennessee CavnJ.ry Volunteers, reported it without amendment. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(H. R. No. 2673) tore tore the name of Hannah B. Eaton, of Kin.gsville, Ohio, to the pension-roll, reported it without amendment. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(H. R. No. 1403) granting a pension to Jehu Balwr, r ported ad verse1y 

thereon ; and the bill was postponed indefinitely. . 

1\lr. SPRAGUE. The Committee on Public Lamls have had nUller con~ideration the draught of a bill providing for the appointment of a co1Dllli.ssiouer to ascertain the rights o.f Stlbjects of Gren,t llrit~tin to 

land in the territory which was the subject of the award of the 

Emperor of Germany under the treaties of 1846 and 1 71 between the 

Uniterl States and Great Britain, and have instructed me to l'eport 

the bill. . The reference came to the com.mitteo through papers re- ceived from tho State Department. 

Tho bm (S. No. 959) providing for the appoiutment of a commissioner to ascertain the rights of subjects of Great Bdtain to lands in 

the territory which wa-s the subject of the award of the Emperor of 

Germa,ny under the treaties of 1846 and 1871 between the Unitetl 

States a.nrl Great Britain was read, and passed to a second reading. 

Mr. SPRAGUE, from the Committee on Public Lands, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 3339) relating to the disposition of 

certain lauds to be reclaimed in sections 14, 23, anu 26, in town hip 

16 north, of range 20, in the county of Sheboygan, in the State of 

Wiscon in, reported it without amendment. 

1\fr. 'PRAGUE. The arne committee, to whom was referred the 

bill (S. No. 904) to provide revenue from the sale of public lands, 

have directed me to report it back aucl recommend that it be indefinitely postponecl. I ask that it be placed on the Calendar. I submit 

at the same time a minority report. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The bill will be placed on the Calendar and the report printed. 

Ur. MORRILL, of Vermont, from the Committee on Public llnil<lings and Grounds, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 55) to authorize the construction of a public building at To11eka, Kansas, report d 

it without amenclmen,t, 

• 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5171 

1\Ir. CIIANDLER, from the Committee on Commerce, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 1588) to revise, amend, and consolidate 

the laws relating to the ecurity of life on board vessels prop~lle~ in 

whole or in part by steam, and for other purposes, reported It without amendment. 

MI·. FERRY, of Michigan, from th~ Committe~ on Finan?e, to wh<_>m was referred the bill (H. R. No. 3177) for the relief of DeWitt C. Chipman, reported it with an am~ndment, and submitted a report thereon, 

which was ordered to be pnnted. 

THE DIDIAN TERRITORY. 

Mr. P .A.TTERSON. I am instructed by the Committee on Territories to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 570) to organize the Territory of Oklahoma, and for the better pr:otection of the Indi~ tribes 

therein, and for other purposes, to subnnt a report, accompamed by 

the following resolution; an~ I give notice thn t I sh~ll ::J:Sk for the con ideration of the resolutiOn to-morrow at the exprratwn of the 

morning hour. 

Resolved, That the Committee on Territories be authorized to sit during th~ re- cess and to investigate as to the manner of the execution of t~e laws of the. Um~d 

St..'l.te in the Indian Territory; al o as to the wants and sentiments of the inhabit- ants of said Territory, and the advisability of creating a territorial form of gov_-- ornment for said InMan country; said committee to have power to take testi- mony and end for persons ancl papers; and that the <expenses atteniling this investicration shall be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers ap- p:'oved by the chairman of the said committee. 

The report and resolution were ordered to be printed. 

·AMENDMENT TO AN .A.PPROPRJ.ATION BILL. 

Mr. WASHBURN submitted an amendment intended to be propo ed 

to the bill (H. R. No. 3168) mn.king appropriations for the repair, 

pre ervation, and completion of certain public works on rivers and 

harbors, and for other purposes; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce, and ordered to be printed. 

THE LEVEE COM...'liTTEE. 

Ur. CL.A.YTO:N. I am instructed by the Select Committee on the 

Levees of the Missis ippi River to report the following resolution, and 

~tsk for its presen.t con,.sideration: 

Resolved That the Select Committee on the Levees of the Mississippi River be 

authorized to sit dnring the r ecess and to investigate and report upon the condition 

of the lev of the Mi is ippi River, and also upon t.he propriety of the Govern- ment of the United tat~ assUDling cha.t;~e and control of the sa~e, wi_th. a vie"'!" to their completion and marntenance; and roat the expenses attendmg this mve tigation shall be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved. 

by the chainnan of the select committee aforesaid. 

:ur. EDMUNDS. That is a very important subject, and I think it 

had better lie over. The PRESIDE:NT lJI'O lentpore. The resolution will lie over. ' [r. CLAYTON. Does the Senator. from Vermont object · Mr. EDMUNDS. I think it had better lie over a-s it involves very 

important considomtions. 

PERSO ... ~ A.L EXPLAL~A.TIO • • 

Mr. SCOTT. I desire at the reque t of others who feel more interest in it than I do to correct, through the only medium through which 

it cn.n b~ corrected, a 8tn.tement which appears in roo t of the morn- ino- pap rs this morning. In the debate which occurred npon the 

mgiety bill yesterday I am represented as 8:1.)--i.ng that the moieties 

received by the officers at Philadelphia amounted in the ln t year to 

30,000. It is not the fact that that amount wa received, and I ilid 

uot so state, as the record of our proceedings shows. 

COTTO~ PElUIITS. 

l\Ir. ALCORN. I a k leave to call up the resolntion I submitted on the 29th of 1\Iay. It will take but a little time to clispo e of it. 

The PRE IDENT pro tempore. The re-solution will be rea-d for information. 

The Chief Clerk read tho resolntion, as follows: 

Reilolved, That the Secreta17 of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, requcstod to furnish the Senate with copies of aU cotton 11ermit-s issued by President-s Lincoln 

and .r ohnson, also with the names of agents appointed by the Sem·otary of the 'l'reastll'J to pnrcha.se cotton in the Southern tates, with copies oftheforms u ed by said pnrchasina agents, and with a copy of any instructions from time to time i sueu by 

the Secretary of the Treasury, or officers unuer him, to said purchasing agents. 

Mr. EDMUND . I hope the Senator from fississippi will not insist 'npon taking that np for pa sao-e. I£ he wishes to have it referred 

to the Committee on Finance for inquiry into the expense of this 

matter and the nece ·itie of the Government in respeot to it before 

this order is made, I shoultl have no objection; but if he wishes to 

tn.ke it up for consideration with a view to having it adopted without 

being referred to any committee whatever, I hope the Senate will 

not take it up, but will allow us to p1·oceed with the regular order of 

the Calendar of unobjected cases in order to dispose of as much busiHcss as possible. · 1\1r. ALCORN. I do not think it is necessary to refer this re olut ion to the Committee on Finance, and if -the Senate will tn.ke it up 

antl pass upon it it will occupy but a little time. If the Senate after 

it has heard me for five minutes votes down the re olution I will 

say no more about it. I only want to present tho case and the neces- sity for this resolution, and refer it to the judgment of the Senate as to whether we shall be entitled to have the information or not. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I desire to suggest to the Senator from l\Iississippi an amenument, to call only for the papers not already printed. 

There have been several volumes on that subject. 

Mr. ALCORN. Well, I n.m willing; "all that have not been 

printed.'' AU that have been printed already I am willing as a matter of course should be excluded. · Mr. EDMUNDS. The resolution is not up 3·et. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o ternpore. The question is, Will the Senate pwceed to the consideration of this resolution f 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I should like to have the resolution read. 

The. PRESIDENT zn·o tempore. The resolution will be read. 

Mr. ALCORN~ .A.n amendment is suggested by the Senator from 

Ohio. 

Mr. ED~flThTDS. It cn.nnot be amended until we conclude to con- sider it. 

The Chief Clerk again read the resolution. 

1\fr. ALCORN. I will add a proviso thn.t nothing shall be reportotl 

that has heretofore been transmitted and printed. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I hope that resolution will not be taken up at 

this stage of the session, for it involves matters of great con equence; 

but if it is taken up, I shall ask that it be referred to the Committee on Finance. 

1\fr. ALCORN. It has been laid over for several dn.ys. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I hope it will not be taken up. We h::we other 

matters to n.ttend to of more consequence. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The question is on the motion of 

the Senator from Mississippi to proceed to the consiclemtion of the 

resolution. 

Tho motion was not agreed to. 

T.IIE DISTRICT GOVEID\~IE...,T. 

1\fr. MERRIMON. Is the morning business over The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Resolutions are in order. [.A. pause.] 

There seems to be no further morning business. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I move to proceed to the Calendar of unobjocted cases. 

Mr. BOREl\IA.N. I have a resolution which I wish to offer, or rather a motion to make. It is to reconsider the vote by which the bHl (H. 

R. No. 3680) for the government of the District of Columbia, and for 

other purpo es, was passed. I move t{) reconsider that vote. 

The PRESIDENT pro tmnpm·e. Does the Senator ask for the present 

consideration of the motion 7 

Mr. BOREM.AN. Yes, sir. I make this motion in order that I mn.y 

1mderstand a proposition in this bill which I regard as a very importn,nt one, if I apprehend it correctly. This bill had been reported but a. very short time before action was taken upon it by this body. I · admit that I had not read the bill when it came up for consideration 

yesterday. I listened to"'the reading of it by the Secretary, but in the 

hurried transaction of business here in the latter part of the session, 

of course it is very difficult to hear everything that is read at tho 

desk. I find that in the fourth section of this bill it is proviuedThat for tl1e support of the government of the District of Columbia, and maintaining the credit thereof, for the fiscal year ending .June 30, I875, there shall be 

levied upon all real estate in said District, except that belong-ing to the Unit.£'tl 

States and to the District of ColUDibia, and that used for educational and charitable purposes, the following taxes, namely. 

If I understand this 11rovision correctly, it is intended to inaugurate in this District the taxation of a. class of property which has never hitherto in this country, so far as I know, been taxed; f.llat i , 

the property belonging to all the churches located within the District. 

If I had noticed this provision yesterday, I should have asked for a vote by yeas and nays on a motion to strike it out to see whether the 

Senate is prepared at this particular time and upon this particuln.r 

bill to inaugurate a. system of taxation whi ch hn.s never hitherto, so far as I know, been imposed in the United State . I wish now to learn whether I give a correct construction to this 

:provision in the bill. I trust thatthechair~'Lnof the committee will 

explain to theSonatowhatthepurposeof thocommitteeisand whether 

the construction I give this clause, that it is intended to tax chmch 

property, is the correct one. Mr. ALLISON. 1\fr. President, in reply to the question of the Senator from West Virginia, I would say that it was the intention of tho 

committee to exempt only real e tate used for educn.tional purpo ·es and belonging to charitable institutions. The Congre s of the Unitcll 

States three or four or perhaps five years ago passed an act exempting in this District all church property from taxation. The church 

property amounts to a. bout one-fifteent h of tho real estn.te in this Di - trict; and the vast improvements that have been made in this District 

have been made in and around church property at the expen e of the 

property-holders living upon tho street to a large degree and n.t the 

expense of the wholo city, amounting in the aggregate to non.rly 

20,000,000. 

The committee fonnd themselves in a position where it became necessary to tax the property of this District to relieve it from its 

emban:issment. The council of the local Legislature in this District 

recommended that church property be taxed. The house of delegates 

haYe recommended that church property be taxetl for this purpose. 

It is a temporary tax. It only applies to the year 1875. We have 

submitted it to a joint committee of the two Houses for the purpose of rea.djusting taxation in this District, as well as every other question 

involved in it; but we believe that all the real estate in tbis District 
5172 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

should bear its proportjon of the temporary burden required to lift up 

this District from its insolvency and embarrassment, and therefore we put in this provision, and I believe the Senator from West Virginia 

gives it the proper and correct construction. ~Ir. STEW ART. I hope no motion to reconsider this bill will be 

entertained. If it is opened once our work will be lost. I do not 

believe that on the whole it can be improved. All the e matter were considered, and considered in great detail and at length; and I wish 

to say here that I have heard considerable complaint about this 3 per 

cent. tax. It is only on real estate ; and this city has been vastly 

improved and the people have been largely benefited by the e improvements. The tax is no more burdensome here than it is in many 

cities outside of Washington. It is for improvements that have en- hanced the property of all the citizens here. It i an improvement 

tax. Other cities have not regarded such a tax as objcctiona,ble. If 

3 per cent. alone were levied on their real estate they would not com- plain. The people of this District must not complain. They cannot 

have a beautiful city without bearing their proportion; and if they 

do that t.he people of the United State will say that Congre s shall 

be liberal and shall bear it just proportion, we having laid the city 

out on a scale of magnificence that it is impossible for the people 

here to maintain alone. But when the people here have done their 

duty, and their full duty, they can call upon the people of the United 

States through Congress to contribute in a just proportion to make 

this the capital city. We have provided for an inve ti~ation of what 

shall be the ,just proportion; but in the mean time the people here 

must stand their fair share. 

As to church property it is an open question whethe':' it would not 

be better to have that property ta,xed as private property is. There 

is a difference of opinion among the churches on thi question as a general propo ition. But in this cast3 when the churches own large 

quantities of real estate that they are not using for immediate purpo es, and it has been largely enhanced in value by these improvements, this special tax should be paid by them with cheerfulness. I 

believe it will be. I do not believe any church will complain of this. 

It does not touch the general que tion whether church property 

should be taxed at all times or not; but it reaches the que tion 

whether church property held for speculative purpose , held for its 

enhancement in value, having been so enhanced by these improvements, shall pay its proportion of the cost of the improYemcnts. 

That is the question. The committee considered it. It is no new question. We do no!; pa now upon the general qnestion of whether 

church property shall be taxed; but we say in this special instance 

in 'Vashington, it having been improved at large e11..'"Pense and en · hanced largely in value, there is no way of meeting the expense 

except by taxing the whole property. We cannot exempt one-tenth 

of the property of the District from taxatiw and meet th~ expen e by any appropriation that Congress will probably mak~ in addition 

to the taxation that the people must pay. The e questions have all 

been con idered, and I hope the bill will not be reconsidered for any 

consideration. ~k. SARGENT. I did what I could, as is known to the Senate, last 

evening to lead with courage a somewhat small minority. I made 

then all the :fight I desire to make on the bill. I trust the bill will 

meet the expectations of the able committee who report it. I do not. 

believe at this late hour we ought to reopen the question again, and 

I therefore desire to say only that I shall vote against the motion to 

reconsider. · ~Ir. BOREMAN. I do not propose to avoid the subject of taxation 

in this Di ·trict. That is a matter that cannot be avoided, I apprehend. The debt of the District has to be paid either by taxation of 

the Dist1ict or by appropriations from the Treasury of the United 

States, or in some other way that I am not advi ed of at this time. 

The only point I made was in regard to inaugurating a system of 

taxation of church property in this District, when it was not, so far as I knew, the practice in any of the States of the Union. If it is so I am not advised of it. I wish simply now to have a vote of the 

Senate upon the quest.ion of reconsideration. I do not know th..'tt the 

Senate will reconsider this vote; but I give notice that if they do I 

shall move to aud to the exemption in the bill "property held for 

church purpo es," so that the exemptions shall include not only 

property "belonging to the United States and to the District of Col-

"Hmbia and that used foT educational and charitable purpo es," but 

al o "property h eld for church purposes." I should like to have the 

yeas and nay on the motion to reconsider. 

Mr. THUR iAN. 1\fr. President, I have but a very few words to 

say, for I do not wish to occupy the time of the Senate upon this 

matter. 

This subject was fully considered in the committee, and nothing 

but the absolute nece ity to raise a sufficient sum to meet the expenses of this District until a new frame of government can be established and the wishe , so far a we know, of the people of this District, certainly as manife ted by the expression of their Legislature, to which allusion h~ been made by the Senator from Iowa, induced us to report the section to which attention has now been called, and we r eceived not one single remonstrance against it. Although it was known that the bill contained that provision although the bill has 

boen re::td perhaps by nine-tenths of the people who can read in the 

city of Washington, and has been the subject of review in all the 

newspapers, and this particular subject of taxing ohur h prop rtv 

has been brought to the attention of the public by are oluticn of t.ho 

District Legislature, not one single remonstrance ha been received 

against that provision of the bill. 

I think any one who will make himself acquainted with the amount 

of church property that is helU in this city, a great portion of whiclJ 

i not used for church purpo es at all, but great blocks that are va ant 

and that have been improved in every way in which property can be 

improved, by the amelioration of the streets, the construction of ew- ers, and everything of that kind, without paying a sin<Yle cent of 

taxe -every one will ·say that under the peculiar circu~stance of 

t.he en c these institutions should come in and help to lift this bur<leu 

off the people of the District. I think there is no complaint about 

tha.t at all. 

Now I wish to submit a question, and that is, whether a. motion to 

lay the motion to reconsiuer on the table iB in order 7 

Mr. EDMUND . It is in order, and I hope the Senator will make it. 

Mr. MORTON. I desire to say one word. 

Mr. THURMAN. I wonld make it, but my friend from Indiaun. 

wi hes to speak. I ask him will be renew the motion 7 

Mr. MORTON. I will yield the floor to you to do it. 

Mr. President, I was not here yesterday when this bill passed. I 

have been called upon y several gentlemen, residents of this District, ~entlemeu who have not sympathized with this investiO'ation 

and who are friends of the existing government and of Gcfverno~ Shepherd, who have made c-ertain representations to me which I think were important and deservin~ of attention in regard to the tax levied 

by this bill. This bill proviues for a tax of 3 per cent. upon real 

estate. I understand there is an existing tax of 2 per cent. tha.t has 

not been paid also levieu upon the arne real estate to be collected 

upon the same asse ment--an asse sment made last yen.r at a larO'e 

valuation, in many cases larger than the property would sell for no~ in the present condition of the times and of the prices of property. 

They al o represent that very many of the property-holders of the 

city have large a essments unpa.id against them for street improvement , in some cases equal to half the value of the property, in other cases perhaps equal to the full value of the property. The e gentle- men say that these two taxes, in all 5 per cent., together with the tax 

for the street improvements, will, in a great many cases, amount to 

the ~ontiscation o~ the property; .that the small property-holUers, men m moderate C1Tcumstance , will not be able to pay. They think 

that great oppre ion, suffering, and distress will result from the provi ion iu this bill iu regard to taxation. They fully concm with 

the bill in other respects, that the present government ought to be 

abolished, and are satisfied with the general provisions of the bill, 

but they say that from theii· knowledge of the condition of the District, and of the indebtedness of the people and the gen~raldepre ion 

of the times, in Lheir opinion this bill would amount to the confi - cat.iou of a large amount of property in this District. 

1\fr. THURMAN. Umloubtedly, precisely such representations as have been so clearly stated by the Senator from Indiana have been 

made. They were maue to the committee. They were considered by 

the committee. But what are the factsf Why, sir, in the city in 

which I live, which is the lightest taxed city in Ohio, we pay in round 

numbers 3 per cent. on all the personal as well as real property; in 

the city of Toledo they pay 4 per cent. on all the real and per onal 

property. There is not a city in Ohio of any magnitude in which 

there i not a tax of about 3 per cent. upon the whole personal as well a-s real property. It is altogether a mistake to say that this is a tax 

which cannot be borne. Why, sir, this bill relieves these people of 

two millions of taxation already levied upon them at one sweep. It 

lifts off two millions of taxes at one single dash of the pen from these 

people, a,nd it is quite useless to say that they cannot bear this tax. 

~fr. MORTON. I will ask my friend what is the gross amount of 

unpaid taxes or unpaid assessments for street improvements 'f 

Mr. THURMAN. I cannot tell exactly. It is distributed into five 

payments. I will ask the Senator from Iowa what is the amount of 

unpaid street assessments 'f 

Mr. ALLISON. Includingthesewertaxandthe unpaid assessments 

for the street , there are over $4,000,000 due. 

Mr. THUR IAN. What is the gross amount of the st1:eet asse s- ment. Y 

Mr . .ALLISON. There are 2,400,000 of street a-ssessments, to which 

ought to be added 1,050,000, which have already been disposed of, 

making over 3,000,000 for street asses ments alone. 

Mr. THURMAN. Only one-fifth of that fell due this year. 

Mr . .ALLISON. That is true. 

Mr. THURMAN. But I do not wish to take up time. I move to lay 

the motion to reconsider on the table. 

?!Ir. SHERMAN. Does not that carry the bill with itt 

Mr. ED .MUNDS. No, sir; that has been decided over and bver 

again. 

Mr. THURMAN. It was decided by Mr. Colfax long ago that such a motion does not carry the bill with it. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. The motion is in order. 

Mr. THURMAN. It does not carry the bill with it. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It does not. The question is on the 

motion to lay the motion to reconsider on the table. 

The motion was agreed to. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5173 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I now renew the motion to proceed to the Calendar of uno~jected cases under what is called the Anthony rule. 

The PRESIDENT pro temp01·e. The first bill on the Calendar will 

be reported. · Mr. BUCKINGHAM. Before we proceed to the Calendar I desire 

to make a motion. There are quite a number of bills reported from the 

Committee on Indian Affairs action upon which would be a great relief, some to the Indians, and some to the settlers on these Indian lands. 

I will ask once more that the Senate give me an opportunity to present these bills so that they may be acted upon at some particular 

hour, and if no better hour is suggested I will name six o'clock this 

afternoon. , The PRESIDENT pro temp01·e. The Senator from Connecticut asks 

unanimous consent that at six o'clock this afternoon the Senate will 

proceed to consider bills reported by the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I feel obliged to object. The Judiciary Committee is in the same category, and if we can go through the Calendar 

of unobjected cases we shall dispose probably of a good many of the 

bills of the Indian Committee and a good many of ours, and of the 

bills of every other committee. It is impossible at this stage in the 

session justly to set aside any time to any particular committee. It 

does not do justice to the rest of the Calendar: in my opinion. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. Other -committees have had hours set apart 

for them since I first made this application. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. It is a very bad practice indeed. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. It may be a very bad practice, but I do not 

know how otherwise we are to secure the interests of those represented 

by this committee. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. You would have got some of those bills passed by 

this time if you had let us go on with the Calendar. 

Mr. WASHBURN. I ask the Senate to take up a bill which is No. 

691 in the order of business. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I believe the first bill on the Calendn,r has been 

already called. 

The PRESIDENT pro temp01·e. The first bill on the Calendar is before the Senate. PROPOSED RECESS. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I gave notice yesterday that I should move today to take a reces until half past seven o'clock for the purpose of 

c?nsidering House bill No. 2190, the pension bill relating to the soldiers of the war of 1812, and I now make that motion. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Is that motion in orderY 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo're. It is. ~r. EDMUNDS. I thought there was a later order which declared 

that we shoul(l have a continuous se sion from eleven to six o'clock. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tmnpore. The later order was that the Senate would sit from eleven to six o'clock. The Senator from Kentucky moves to take a recess from six until half past seven o'clock, which 

motion is in order under the former oruer of the Senate. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I respectfully submit that the motion to take a recess under the former order must be a motion to take a recess at the 

time when the motion is made. But I do not care anything about 

that; the Senate is full, a-pu I would as soon the question should be 

taken now. I waive any point of that kind for the present. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The rule says "that during the 

present session it shall be in order at any time to move a. recess." The 

motion is strictlv in order. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I merely wish to say, by unanimous consent, as I 

suppose this motion is not debatable, that to take a recess for the 

pnrpo e of considering this evening the pension bill which the Sen- ~tor refers to is to take a recess which when you come to the measure rnvol ves the expenditure of a great many millions of dollars f(lr a purpose which will require a good deal of debate before I am con- vinced that it ought to be clone. Therefore I hope at this stage of 

these sion that the Senate will not take a recess for any such purpose. 

In fact I may say as a point of order that that would be equivalent 

to making a special order, and you cannot take a recess for that purpose. You may take the recess, and then the Senator must take his 

chance about getting up the bill if he can. I hope we shall not take 

such a recess. 1\!r. STEVENSON. Admitting the proposition of the Senator 'from 

Vermont ~hat t~is may ~e in the nature of a special order, I only 

want to giVe notwe that if we do take the recess it will be for the 

purp.ose of taking up this pension bill at the evening se sion. It may 

reqrure a good deal of money. I will not deny the proposition of the 

Senator from V:ermont that .it may require millions of money; but to 

""Yhat more pratse~orthy obJect could money be given than to the re- lief of the poor wtdows whose husbands lost their lives in the defense 

of their country _T • :Many of th~~ are about pa-ssing away, and from 

every part of thlS country petitions come up that this bare act of 

justice to the widows of these brave men shall be done. We can b~Hd in this .cit~ of Washington a single building that will cost $~,000,000, which 1~ abo~t ~he proposed cost of th~ new Congression~l 

~;tbrary; we can grve millions of money for the rmprovement of this 

City, and yet when it comes to a bare meed of justice to these poor 

widows, gentlemen think it is too expensive. But I do not intend to 

take up the time of the Senate. I hope we shall have a fnll vote on 

the question whether we shall meet here at half past seven o'clock, 

and If we do meet I shall move to take up the pension bill. l\Ir. ED~l NDS. I ask for the yeas and nays on this question. I 

want to. de~ern;rine ~ow _whether the Senate <?n the last day but one of the sessiOn 1s gomg mto the matter of paymg pensions to a larrre 

body of our fellow-citizens in the South, whose last achievement w~.q being enga.getl in the rebellion. I want tv have it distinctly understood and find out what the majority of the Senate wish to do at this 

time. As the question is not open to debat.e, I do not care about 

speaking upon it. 

Mr. PRATT. Mr. President--

The PRESIDENT p1·o tenLpm·e. Debate is proceeding by unanimous 

consent. 

Mr. BOUTWELL. I must object. 

The PRESmENT p1·o tmnpore. The Senator from Vermont asks for 

the yeas and nays on this question. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I call for the regular order. 

1\!r. CHANDLER. So do I. 

Mr. ~HERMAN. Pending the regular order of business I suppose 

this motion is not in order. 

The PRESIDENT pTo tentpore. The motion is in order and the 

Secretary will call the roll. 

The q,uestion being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 34, nays 

21 ; as follows : 

YEAS-Messrs. Alcorn, Bayard, Bogy, Carpenter, Cooper Davis Dennis Fenton, Ferry of Michigan, Flana"an, Gilbert, Goldthwaite, Hau:'!ilton of Texas 'Johnston, Kelly, Lewis, McCreery,MeiTimon, Mitchell, Morton, Norwood, Oglesby, Pat~ terson, Pratt, Ransom, Saulsbury, Schurz, Spencer, Spmaue Stevenson Stock--ton 

Thurman, Tipton, and Windom-34. "' ' ' ' 

NAYS-Mes. ~s. Anthony, Boutwel~, Buckingham, Chandler, Clayton, Conover, 

Edmunds, Frelinghuysen, Hager, Hitchcock, Howe, Morrill of Maine, Monill 

of Vermont, Ramsey, Sargent, Scott, Sherman, Stewart, Washburn West, aDll 

Wright-21. ' 

ABSE T-Messrs. Allison, Boreman, Brownlow, Cameron Conkling Cragin Dorsey, Ferry of Connecticut, Gordon, Hamilton of Maryland, Hamllii' Harvey' Ingalls, Jones, Logan, Pease, Robertson, and Wadleigh-18. ' ' 

So the motion of Mr. STEVENSON was agreed to. 

ORDE.R OF BUSINESS. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo're. The morning hour having expired 

the Senate resumes the consideration of the unfinished business, which 

is the river and harbor bill. Mr. WRIGHT. I trust the Senator from Michigan will consent to 

let us take up the conference report on the currency bill and have a vote upon it. I have no wish to say a word upon the subject and I 

do not suppose anybody else has. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I think that had better lie over a little while. I 

have not had time. to examine it myself. 

Mr. WRIGHT. All I want is to have the question disposed of as soon as possible. If it can be understood that it will be taken up in a short time hence-- · 1\lr. ED~IUNDS. I will withdraw my objection at the end of an hour from this time;. and_ beyond that I merely wish to give notice 

that to-morrow morrung, if we are all here, I shall again ask the Senate to go to the Calendar of unobjectedcases and shall insist upon the 

regular order froin this time to then. · FRELINGHUYSEN. I would ask the Senator from Michigan 

to gtve way to the Utah bill, laying aside his bill informally. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I think we had better stick to the reglilar order. 

TRANSFER OF GOLD BARS. 

Mr. SHERMAN. There is a Senate bill on the table which has 

been returned from the House of Representatives with a small amendment, upon which there is a necessity for immediate action. I therefore ask to have it taken up and acted upon now. There being no objection, the Senate proceeded to consider the amend~~nt of the House of Repre.sentatives to the bill (S. No. 784) . authonzmg the transfer of gold mmt bars from the bullion fund of 

the assay office, New York, to the assistant treasurer at New York 

which was to insert after the words "coin at," in line 8 the word~ "market, value." ' 

Mr. SHERMAN. I move to amend the amendment by insertin(J' in 

lieu of it . the words ''and not less than the market value" at 0the 

place I have inilicated on the paper which I send to the desk. That 

will accomp_li ~ the object of the House. T~e language inserted in 

the House 18 rn the wrong place. The bill simply authorizes the 

transfer of· mint bars from the bullion fund of the assay office to the 

assistant treasurer at New York. It has passed the Senate already. 

Mr. SARGENT. What difference does it make about the market 

valueY 

1\!r. SHERMAN. The House, probably by inadvertence, have introduced those words at the wrong place, and I want them inserted at 

the proper place. 

The amenliment to the amendment was agreed-to. The amendment, as amended, was concurred in. 

RIVER AND HARBOR BILL. 

The Senate, a in Committee of the Whole, resumed the cousideration of the bill (H. R. No. 3168) making appropriations for therepair, preservation, and completion of certain public works on rivers 

and harbors, and for other purposes. 
5174 CONGRESSIONAL RE.OORD. JUNE 19, 

The first amendment reported by the Committee on Commerce was 

on page 4, after line 75, to insert: 

For removing bowlllers anll. rock from the D etroit River, partly in Canadian 

waters, 25,000. 

The amendment was agre d to. 

The next amendment wa on page G, in line 97, to in ert after the 

words " Dunkirk, New York," the word "and Erie, Pennsylvania." 

The amendment wa agreed to. 1\Ir. SCOTT. I wish to add at the encl of t hat line an amendment 

ill accordance with the recommendation of the Department, and one to which I presume there will be· no objection. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. If there be no objection the Chair 

will r eceive the amendm nt now, though the n nal com e is to go 

through with the amendments reportecl by the committee. The 

Clerk will read the amemlment proposecl by the Senator from Pennsylvania. The CHIEF CLERK. The proposed amendment is to insert after the 

word "dollars" in line 9 tho words" of which not less than 20,000 

shall be expended at Erie;" so as to mn,ke the clause read: 

For continuing the improvement of the harbor at Dunkirk, New York, and Erie, Pennsylvania, $35,000; of which not less than e-~,000 shall be expended at Erie. 

Mr. CH.Al\TDLER. There is uo objection to that. 

The amendment wa agreed to. 

The next amendment of ti1e Committee on Commerce was in line 

124, after the wortls " aint Anthony," to insert the words "and for 

the improvement of the Mi is ippi River above the Falls of Saint 

Anthony;' so that tho clan e will read: 

For continuing tho improvement of the Falls of Saint .Anthony, and for the im· provement of the Mis i sippi River above the Falls of Saint Anthony, Minnesota, 

$50,000. 

The amendment wa agreed to. 

The next amendment was in line 127, to strike ont after the word 

" for" the word "continuing," and after the word "the" in the same line to insert the words " survey or ;" so that the clan e will read: 

For the survey or improvement of the Minne ota River, 10,000. 

The amendment was agn~etl to. 

The next amendment was in line 130, to strike out after the word 

"river" the words "including repa4· of United States steamer 

Search, 80 that the clan e will read: 

For continuing the improvement of the Upper Mississippi River, 25,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was to stJ:ike out in lines 141 and 142 the 

following clause: 

For continuing the improvement of the White River above Jacksonport, $50,000. 

Mr. CLAYTON. I hould like to ask the chairman of the Committee on Commerce what reasons governed the committee in moving to 

strike out thi appropriation ' 

Mr. CHANDLER. I will give the reason. In the estimat-es of the 

board of engineers will be found this : 

No work has been done UD(ler this appropriationThe appropriation of -o,ooo made la t yearNo work bas been done under this appropriation beyond fitting l\ bout for sernce in those streams during the coming eason. Only snagging operation are contemplated. The appropriation will allow of five 

months' work, of which I .propo e to expend three in the "White River, below Jacksonport, and two in the Sarnt Francis, below Wittsburgh. 

The report shows 46,568 on hand of last year's appropriation, and as nothing·but snagging is contemplated by the board of engineers, 

the committee deemed that fully sufficient for one year. 

Mr. CLAYTON. We have in the State of Arkan as three thousand 

five hundred miles of navigable water, and with the exception of the 

small appropriation made for the Mississippi and .Arkansas Rivers, roo t of which is made for the Mi'lsissippi River, if the recommen- dation of the committee be adopted not one cent will be appropriated 

toward rendering available those natural highways of thirty-five hnndred miles in extent. I see from the re~ort of General Humphrey' that 

he recommends this appropriation of $50,000 for the White and Saint 

Francis Rivers. I find that the chairman of the Committee on Com- merce proposes to strike out this 50,000, taking away from the State 

of .Arkansas every cent of appropriation, with the exception that I 

have spoken of heretofore, and I find in looking over the amendments 

of the committee that for the Detroit River $25,000 is appropriated. 

I have no objection to that appropriation being made, ~nd I voted 

for it just now; but I do object to robbing poor .Arkansas Peter to 

pay rich Michigan PauL 

A great deal has been said about cheap transportation; propo itions are on foot now to expend tens of millions, perhaps hundreds 

of millions toward creating artificial means of tram~portation. It seems to me that it would be a wiser policy on our part to expend a 

few thousand dollars yearly, as we have been in the habit of doing, 

toward rendering available the means of transportation that nature 

l1as so admirably adapted to the commerce of this country. I do hope that the Senate will stand by me in this little appropriation of 50,000 

for thirty-five hundreu mile of navigable water . . l\fr. CHANDLER. I will say that there are very large appropria.-

tions in this bill for the Arkansas and other rivers; but this river.! 

where it it! simply proposed to tlse a snag-boat, some three hnndreo. 

miles above where it unite with the Arkansas, is a small stream, and 

there are no report as to the commerce of the river, and there bcincr 

46,568.39 on hand for snagging purposes the committee thou()'ht it was sufficient for this year. "' 

I will state, furthermore, that of the 4,500,000 appropriated in t.llis 

bill there are something over ,000,000 for the ~fi_,sis ippi River antl 

it br::mche . ·All the watershed of the Mississippi Valley is inter t d 

in the whole of that 2,000,000. The committee has trie(l to o.: O 

app_ortion it a to do the most good to the conu:nerce of that great 

regwn. . · Mr. C~AYTON. The l~rge appropriation tha;t the Senator speak 

of a bemg matle for the rmprovement of the .A.rkan a River is thi : 

;For continuing the improvement of the Mississippi, M.is ouri, and Arkansas Rtvers, 100,000. 

Mr. CHANDLER. There i likewise an appropriation for tlle R d 

River raft. 

~1r. CLAYTON. That is not in .Arkansas at all; it is in the States 

of Louisiana aJld Texas. A mall portion of it touches the southern 

bonntlary of Arkansas, but a very small portion. The only appropriation you have now made for the State of .Arkansas is 100,000, which 

is to be v.pplied for the Mis ouri, the Mis is ippi, and the Arkan ::1 

Rivers. I hould like to know how much the river .Arkansas will CY6t 

after the Mis ouri and Mis is ippi Rivers have been provided for. 0 

Mr. D.A. VI . In my opinion this appropriation of 0,000 ouo-ht not 

to be tricken out. I have looked over thi bill with some car~ and I 

find that the . GO,OOO appropriated here is the only amount allotted to 

.Arkansas, and by a little further inspection I :find that Michio-an-I 

refer to her a she has been spoken of-has 475,000 in this bih antl '25,000 of that has been added since the bill came from the Hone. 

Thi i about the usual proportion. I think the :figures will bear m out in saying that since the war about on -tenth, perhaps one-ninth 

of the entire appropriations for rivers and harbors has been given to one State on the lakes. Without stating it as a fact, I think tbe 

figures are pretty nearly what I stated when I as ert that two Sta-t • lying in the Northwest have got more from the public Trea ur:v iu tho 

shape of river and harbor appropriations than the thirteen or fourteen States south of the Potomac. I think that is the fact. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. Pre ident--

ThePRE !DING OFFICER, (Mr. FERRY, of Michlgan, in the chair.) 

Doe the Senator from West Virginia yield to the Senator from Michiganf 

Mr. D.A. VIS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CHANDLER. The State of Michigan happens to have a larrrer 

coast line than any other State in the Union, and along that co~st line more than one thousand millions of commerce pass annually. It 

is true that there are 475,000 appropriated in this bill to those waters 

surrounding the State of~fichigan. She is a peninsula with thirt n hundred miles of coastline. \Ve cannot pass a river and harbor bill as a matter of cour e without having the appropriation for Michigan 

brought up, and I had some idea of commencing the consideration of 

this bill by r ading about thirteen speeches that have been made in 

the last thirteen years- calling attention to the appropriation for 

Michigan, and then reading one of my old speeches that I have matlo 

thirteen time in reply to them, which will an wer jut as well. 

The Committee on Commerce pays no attention to State line . It 

duty i to appropriate for the commerce of the nation regartlle . of 

State lines, and it ha endeavored to do it. Allusion has been mall" 

to the committee putting on 25,000 for the mouth of the Detroit 

River. There is mqre than twelve millions of commerce passing that 

very point in seven months in the year, or two millions a month snu- stantially. Michigan did not ask for that appropriation; it was asked for by every board of trade in the United State , from Bo ton 

to Philaflelphiaand Saint Louis. Penn ylvania, New York, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wi cousin, all have ten times the intere t in the ·e appropriation that Michigan has. Why, Mr. President, ~fichi~an ha 

:five parallel lines of railroad, all coming in below the Saint Clatr flats, 

runnin cr through from lake to lake sub tantially completed, and the commerce of :Michicran goes by rail to Detroit, and there is only 25,000 

here for the b nefit of that great.commerce. Mr. CLAYTON. I should like to ask the Senator' hether the Engineer Department has recommended that appropriation f 

Mr. CIIANDLER. Which appropriation 7 

l\1r. CLAYTON. For the Detroit River. 

M . CHANDLER. Certainly they have. 

Mr. CLAYTO:N. I do not see it in General Humphreys' recom- mendation. 

l\1r. CHANDLER. I have it here. 

Mr. CLAYTON. I havelooked carefully over his recommendations 

and have not been able to discover it; but I voted for that. 

Mr. CHANDLER. There were eight wrecks there last year. ·This 

is simply to remove bowlders that have laid there 1:1ince the glacial 

period; and by deepening the channel a~ro s the Saint Clair flat.s we 

have enabled them now to put on two thousand ton ships, and those 

two thousand ton hips touch the e bowlders and there were eight 

wrecks and a lo of 178,000 last year alone. Now suppose you had a wreck or a rock discovered in New York harbor, how long would it 

be before there would be an appropriation put through.here in posthaste to remove it' And yet there is more commerce pas ing that 

point during s ven months in the year than there is in and out of t-he 

harbor of New York. 

Mr. H.A.GER. Mr. President-
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5175 

1\Ir. DAVIS. I gave way to the Senator from Michigan for a question. I have not heard the question yet. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The .Senator from West Virginia 

retains the floor. · Mr. DAVIS. I gave way to the Scnato1· from :Michigan for a question, but I have not heard it. 

1.h'. CHANDLER. I did not get up to a k a question. I answered one. 

Mr. DAVIS. The Senatorfroml\Iichiganhas thought proper to say 

that the Committee on Commerce ignore State lines entiTely. I fully 

agree with him in that respect. I think they have done so, as a rule, 

for a couple of States up North appear to get all and other States not a uollar. 

Arkansas, a I understand, ha as much navigable water as perhaps 

any State in the Union, more I am told than any other; anu yet there 

is but r:o,ooo appropriated to that State· she has hitherto got com- paratively nothing; anfl even that 0,000 is proposeu to bo stricken 

out by the committee, and 25,000 of that sum-I presu~e it is of 

that sum, but certainly 25,000-is transferred to the State of Michigan, when previous to that as the bill came from the House she had 

450,000, or about one-ninth of this whole bill. 

My impre sion is that it would be unjust, unfair, and unstatesmanlike to strike out this $50,000 appropriated to the Arkansas River. 

We all know it ought to be double or three times that in comparison 

with what a portion of the rivers in the Northwest received. It is a fact I believe that the Northwest, though they may have a great deal 

of commerce-that I say nothing about-have a large amount of appropriation , while there is an equal amount of commerce in other ])laces that in this bill have nothing. Take the State of Missouri, for 

instance; 25,000 was appropriated by the Honse in this bill for that 

tate, anu only ~,000. That was the only appropriation affecting 

the State of Missouri, and yet it has been struck out by the Committee on Commerc . ·when the amounts were read in the bill for 

the States in the Northwe t, including Michigan, nothing was said 

by any one on this sicle of the House; we were all willing to be liberal; but we believe it is right and just that an equally libern,lspirit 

should meet the South and Southwest a is exhibited to the Northwest. 

1\h-. WTh~OM. I desire to a-skthe Senator from Arkansas whether 

the amount appropria,ted by the House is the amount in the duc d 

estimates of the DepaTtment T 

Mr. CLAYTON. It is the amount called for in thee timates for the 

White and Saint Francis Rivers. 

Mr. WINDOM. Then I shall favor tho proposition of the Senator 

from Arkansas. At the opening of this session of Congress, a.s will be 

remembered, the Departments were all requested to reduce their estimates. They revised them carefully; and in presenting these reduced 

estimates it is fair to presume that tho e officers of the Government 

who know best what the wants of certain localities are and the neces- sities of certain improvements have reduced them as low as they cpuld 

consistently with the public service. In fact, I know the letter of the 

Engineer-in-Chief transmitting these reduced estimates to Congres 

says specifically that he has kept that fact in view and has reduceu 

them as low as he could without detriment to the public service. 

B lieving that to be true, I shall sustain this appropriation. 

I want to say further, while on this subject and on the floor, that 

there is no bill which will be brought before the Senate about which 

I propose to be so liberal in appropriations as this bill, for the reason that there is no othel' bill brought before Congress that leaves behind 

it, to show for the appropriations made, substantial benefits to bnsi- ne intere t8 of thi country; at least none that can be compared 

with thi . And yet I think it is true, 1\h-. President, that for the la t 

ten years no bill bas been brought before Congress about which there 

has been so much criticism-! was going to use the term "penurious 

higgling," but I will not use it-about which there has been so much 

CI·ittci m as this bill. Yon bring in the sundry civil appropriation 

uill which passed tho House recently, which appropriates $600,000 

for the survey of the coast around this country-proper enough; I do 

not object to it-but when that . 600,000 appropriation is discussed 

here, you will prouably find no objection to it whatever. The same bill appropriates 750,000 for a public building in one place and a million and a half for public buildings in another place; but when we propose to appropriate 50,000 to benefit the section of country 

represented by my friend from Arkansas we stand here and discus it, 

seeking to strike it down, finding fault with loading the bill, and all 

that. 

1\fr. President, I am in favor of putting upon this bill whatever is 

necessary for the business intere ts of the country. It leaves behind 

it something to show for the appropriation. When you appropriate 

money to pay salaries, or for nearly every other object that we appropriate money for in the Senate, it pas es away with the end of the 

year and leaves nothing behind to benefit anybody. This is the people's bill for the people's interest, and to benefit commerce in this 

country, and on it I am willing to stand for all proper appropriations 

recommended by the Departments, especially when they have been 

called upon to revise and reduce _their estimates and they say they 

cannot bring them below a certain point without detriment to the 

pt:tblic service, as I believe is the case with my friend's proposition. 

1\fr. SPENCER. Being a member of the Committee on Commerce, I 

wish to saythat I endeavored in the committee to have the Oua~hita 

Riversubstituted for the White Riv-er. The \VhiteRiver aboveJ acksonport is an unimportant stream ; the country is sparsely settled ; there 

is no commerce there, and very little use for the appropriation. I woulu 

say to the Senator from Minne ota that the revi ed estimates of the 

engine rs do not recommend such· improvement-s as the e as nece. - sary. I am sorry to see the appropriation for .A.rk.,'tnsas stricken out, 

and I endeavoreu in the committee to stop it; but I sought to substitute the Ouachita River for the White River. The Ouachita River 

drains a rich alluvial country, ancl its improvement would benefit commerce. There is no necessity for this improvement of the White 

River above Jacksonport. 

Mr. BOGY. I will not detain the Senate on this matter beyond the 

statement of a fact. I hope this appropriation will not be taken away 

from the State of .A.rkansa . \Vhite River can be made navigable for a large portion of the year with a small annual improvement. It 

drains all Northern Arkansas, flowing in a westerly direction along 

the northern line of the State of Arkansas and not far from the south- ern line of the State of 1\li onri, and it is a most important stream and 

the only outlet for that portion of Arkansa . It drains some ten or twelve of the :finest counties of that State, counties that are improving in population every day, a fine cotton region; and it is the only means by wbic~ that portion of the country, Northern Arkansas and 

Southern Missouri, can get to market except by the old way, with 

mules anu hm es. If this river is not imvroved by a small annual 

improvement it becomes unnavigaule on account of logs and driftwood brought down every spring. 

In the revised e timate the sum of $50,000 i recommenued for this 

improvement. In the original e timates the some of 64,000 wa recommended, bot in the revised estimates made in December, 1873, 

sent to Congress in January, 1 74, under the resolution of the House 

of December 7, 1873, the sum of $50,000 is recommended as the amount neces ary for that river. If we are to take anything a our guide in 

these appropriations, it does seem to me that the e estimate are the 

best guide. I do hope this small appropriation will be retained, be- cause I kn.ow it is important and without it that river is unnavigable 

for this year. 

1\h-. CHANDLER. Last year the Committee on Commerce put in a clause 1·equiring the enCTineers in making surveys to give the statistics of commerce of all the harbors anu I'i.vers where appropriation were made, and in nearly all cases tho e statistics of commerce are given. They were required to do the same in re(Tarcl to White River, 

but there are no statistics of the commerce of White River given. 

As there was $46,568 on hand, the committee thought it was as well . for them to expend that 46,~68, and return the statistics of the com- merce of the river in their annual report. In almost every instance 

the statistics of commerce are given where any appropriation has 

been made. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on the amendment 

of the Committee on Commerce striking out the clause. 

1\fr. CLAYTON. I suppose the vote" no" on this will be to retain 

the appropriation. 

Mr. SCHURZ. That is understood. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Those voting "ay',. vote to strike 

out the appropriation. 

The amendment wa.a rejected; there being on a division-ayes 16, noes 30. 

The next amendment reported by the Committee on Commerce· was to strike out lines 143 and 144, as follows: 

For continuing the improvement of the Osage River, Missouri, 251000. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I hope the Senate will not agree to this amendment. 

1\fuch that has been said about the White River is applicable to the 

Osage River ; and also the report of the engineer hows t.hat the amount 

requii:ecl in addition to the balance left of the last appropriation was · 1~,000. The revised estimates show that the board of eno-ineers ask 

for the appropriation ma~e here and now moved to be stri~enout by · the Committee on Commerce. 

The question may be asked what is the commerce of the Osage 

River; and I suppo e the committee had no statistics about that ver likely. I can inform the committee that there is a very extensive 

mining industry springing up on the banks of that river which absolutely requires for the transportation of its products the improvement 

of the river. · · 

The improvement has been commenced, and I think it is a matter 

of experience that when improvements are commenced and are interrupted then the good that has been achieved by the expenditure of 

the money is lost by the parsimonious refusal of the amount requil·e(l 

to complete them. I hope, therefore, that the Senate will not agree 

to the amendment propo ed by the committee. 

1th'. CHANDLER. The same remarks which were Illil.{"le about 

White River will apply to this. I have no further remark to make. 

Mr. BOGY. I will only state that this $25,000 is recommended in 

the revised estimates. The same amount was appropriated la-st year. 

The total amount recommended for tllis river was 125,000, which 

wonldeffeottheentireimprovement of the 0 age River, ariverwhich 

is navigable for two hundred and fifty miles and requires but a small 

improvement. This sum is recommended in the revised estimates and 

is the only sum appropriated for the improvement of any rivers in the 

State of Missouri except the l\fissouri River itself. and the 1\fi sissippi. 

I do hope the amendment will not be sustained. 

The amendment was rejected. 
5176 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

The next amendment of the Committee on Commerce was in the 

appropriation for continuing the im_Provemel?-t of . th~ Miss~i:ppi 

River between the mouths of the Ohio and M1ssonr1 R1vers, m lme 

146 to strikeout ''Missouri" and insert "illinois," and aftertheworcl "d~lla1·s," in line 147, to insert the words "and $15,000 of sa.id amount 

shall be expended between the mouths of the Missouri and Illinois 

Rivers." 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was after line 184 to insert the following 

clause: 

For removing obstructions in the Chocta.whatchie River, Alabama. a.nd Florid~ 

$5,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. · The next amendment was after line 190 to insert the following 

clause: 

For the improvement of the Chattahoochee and Flint Rivers, Georgia, $25,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next a.mendment . was after line 196 to insert the following 

clan e: 

For the improvement of the Apalachicola River, Florida, $10,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was after line 200 to insert the following 

clause: 

For the improvement of Chester River, at Kent Island Narrows, Maryland, $5,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was after line 204 to insert the following 

cla.use: 

For the improvement of Elk River, Maryland, ~,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. JOHNSTON. I desire to offer an amendment to the clause in 

regard to continuing the improvement of the James River; but I pre- sume I had better let the committee's amendments bo first acted upon. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The amendments of the commit-tee 

will be acted upon first. 

The next amendment of the Committee on Commerce was after 

line 2'29 to insert the following clause : 

For the removal of obstructions in the h:ubor and the construction of a pier at 

New Castle, Delaware, $10,000, 

The amendment wa agreed to. 

The next amendment wa-s after line 234 to insert the following 

clause: 

For continuing United States pier in Delaware Bay, near Lewes, Delaware, 

10,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. · 

The next amendment was in line 249 to strike out the words "and 

Harlem Rivers" and to insert the word "river;" so that the clause 

will read: 

For continuing the improvement by removing obstructions in the Ea.st River, n.t oc near Hell Gate, · 25,000. 

The amendment wa-s agreed to. 

The next amendment was after line 256 to insert the fo1lowing 

-clause: 

For the improvement of the harbor at Fall River, Massachusetts, 10,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was in line 262 to increa-se the appropriation 

for continuing the improvement of the harbor at Newport, Rhode 

Island, from $5,000 to 10,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The next amendment was after line 276 to insert the following 

clause.; 

For the improvement of the harbor at Milford, Connecticut, $5,000. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The Chief Clerk continued the reading of the bill down to and read 

the following clause: 

For removing wrecks and rocks off the harbor of San Francisco, C:iliforni..'ll, 25,000. 

Mr. S.A.RGEN'l'. l wish to offer an amendment at this point. Is it 

by order of the Senate that the amendments of the committee are first acted on T 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. That is the pra-ctice of the Senate. 

Mr. SARGENT. I believe it is in order for me to offer an amendment. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. It has been the custom of the Senate to act on the committee's amendments first and take up other 

amendments afterward. · 

Mr. SARGENT. I should like to offer an amendment to the first 

section, bnt I will re erve it. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator will have an opportunity after the committee's amendments are acted upon. 

The next amendment of the Committee on.. Commerce was in lines 

319 and 320 to strike out the words "for examinations and surveys of 

rivers and harbors, and," :md in line 321 to strike out " 75,000" and 

insert " 25,000; " so as to make the clause read: 

For incidental repairs of harbors for which there is no special appropriation, ~.ooo. 

Mr. DAVIS. That amendment strikes out all the smveys that are 

contained in the bill. The bill as it c::une from the Honse appropriated 75,000 for the examination and survey of different rivers anu harbors. The committee propose to reduce the appropriation to 

$25,000 instead of ~5,000 as it is now. If the amendment prevails, no other surveys will be ordered. 

Mr. SARGENT. Then they strike out the whole of the second sec- tion providing for examinations and surveys. 

Mr. DAVIS. I understand that. I have stated the eftect of the 

pending amendment, but as there was a good deal of noise in tho 

Chamber, perhaps I was not heard. I see the Senator from Michigan 

[Mr. CHANDLER] hold his hand to his ear as if he wanted to hear 

what I have to say, and I wish him to hear mo. The pending amendment. proposes to reduce the appropriation for 

examina.tions and surveys of rivers and harbors from $75,000 to 25,000. 

This is followed by an amendment striking out the second section, 

which contains all the surveys ordered by the House. orne of t.hem 

perhaps may be unnecessary; that I know nothin~ of; but in t.hat 

section there are some very important surveys prov1Cled for, survey 

which I know personally are of the highest importance. The result 

will be to prevent all surveys of rivers and harbors. It is a blow at 

the whole system. Fnrther than that, a.s I understand, appropriations 

hereafter cau only be made after surveys by the Government, and if we make no surveys, no appropriations can be made hereafter. I 

believe I aqt right in that. The surveys '"'f the Northwe t, and perhaps of the North and much of the other portions of the country, have 

already been made. Unle s these snrveys are ordered, many of which are of important rivers, a.Ithough some of them may be unimportant, no appropriation can be had in the future for them. I therefore hope 

the amendment will not be agreed to. 

Mr. CHANDLER. There are a very large number of surveys in the 

second section, unquestionably some of them very important, and 

others unimportant. The House will undoubtedly non-concnr in our amendments and ask for a committee of conference, and in that com- mittee of conference the more important surveys will no doubt be 

retained. Heretofore we have ordered some surveys which ought never to have been made, surveys of small creeks and mall streams. 

In one instance, I think, we ordered the snrvey of a. creek that ha4 

but eight inches of water and was about ei~ht feet wide. It was simplyTI.diculons. Nobody knew anything aoout it; but it wa.s inserted, and the Government engineers went to survey this little creek 

with about eight inches of water and eight feet wide. If the Senate 

sha-ll see fit to stand by the committee in its recommendations the more important surveys, surveys that are really important, will un- doubtedly be put in by a committee of conference. If the Senator 

has any surveys he desires to have made I will accept them before the 

section is stricken out, which will bring them before the committee 

of conference. 

Mr. RAMSEY. Will the Senator then a-ccept an amendment on 

page_15, after line 22, to inse_rt "Rec;I R~ver of the North from Breckenridge to Moorhead Y" I will furnish 1t to the Senator. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly, I will accept that. 

Mr. HAGER. Will the Senator accept an amendment for the Sacramento and Feather Rivers, in California f 

Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly, if the Senator will prepare it. 

Mr. HAGER. It will be found in lines 31 and 32 of the second section. 

Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator from Kentuclty had a survey that 

he desired to have inserted, which I will accept . . Mr. KELLY. I am altogether opposed to striking out any part of 

this sum. :!: think that every survey that is contemplated in the 

second section ought to be made. It is a well established fact that 

Congress will make no appropriation for the improvement of any river or harbor until a survey is made by some competent authority of the 

United States· . . Now, if section 2, which follows this clause, should be 

stricken out, of course we can expect no appropriations whatever for 

any work mentioned in it. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Of course enough of section 2 will be restored to 

carry out any surveys that may be agreed upon in the cominittee of 

conference. 

Mr. KELLY. I wish to say a few words in relation to those sur- veys proposed to be stricken out in section 2 so far as Oregon is con- cerned. I will refer to that section because it is affected by this 

proposed amendment. First is the snrvey of the "Cascade il>nd Daile 

of the Columbia. River, Oregon and Washingto~ TeiT.itory." . Th~t 

is an important matter. At the Cascades there 1s an obstruction rn the navigation of about three miles. If that were surveyed and, as the people there think, an improvement made by canal ann locks, it 

would open the river from the sea to east of the Cascade Mountain . It is now ob tructed at that place, and the people, through the Legislatures of Oregon and Washington Territory and Idaho, have asked 

for·an appropriation that that survey may be made. It is of very 

great importance to ns. · Then there are three othef: the Skaget River, the Snohomish River, 

and the Chehalis River. speak now in behalf of the people of 

Washington Territory who have no repro entative here. They <;Iesire 

that tho e surveys should be made by some compet.ent authonty of 

the United States. 

While I am on my feet, I will refer to an item on page 15, line 28: 

Snake River, Ida-ho, from Shoshonee Falls to Lewiston, examination an<l esti- mates for removing bowluers and other obstrnction8. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5177 

That river is the boundary between Oregon and Idaho, and it is 

t.honght by many people in Idaho that if the obstructions there were removed and those at the Cascades aml the Dalles, there could be a continuous line of navigation from the sea to within one hundred and 

fifty or two hundrerl. miles of Salt Lake Va.lley. I say it is important 

that these surveys should be made, so that we may k'TIOW in some future year, perhaps next year, whether an appropriation ought to be 

made. Therefore, so 1ar as ·washington Territory and Idaho Territory and the State of Oregon are concerne(l, I do hope the amen?-ment 

will not be concurred in. Other gentlemen can speak for therr own 

localities. 

Mr. WASHBURN. I ask to offer an amendment to come in after 

the third line on the fonrlieenth page: 

New Bedford Harbor, Massachusetts. 

i: believe the chairman of the committee proposed to accept that. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I will accept it. 

Mr. WASHBURN. I wish to say one word in reference to that 

amendment. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is this an amendment to the amendment of the committee, or is it an original amendment' 

Mr. WASHBURN. It is an original amendment. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The custom has been to act upon 

amendments reported by the committee in charge of the bill before 

other amendments are proposed. The Chair has refusetl to entertain 

other amendments, and to preserve the custom of the Senate and the 

consistency of the Chair he will be compelled to follow that practice. 

Mr. ·wASHBURN. If the President understands the question, this 

is an amendment to the section which the committee propose to strike 

out, and which amendment the committee propose to have offered 

before the section is stricken out. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senate have not reached the 

point where the Senator proposes to make his amemlment. He will 

wait until that point is reached. The question is on the pending 

amendment of the Committee on Commerce. · Mr. BOGY. What amenclment is before the Senate¥ 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Secretary will report the amendment. 

The CHIEF CLERK. On pa-ge 14, lines 319 and 320, the committee 

report to strike out these words: "for the examinations and surveys 

of rivers and harbOI's, and," and in line 321 to strike out '"75" and 

insert "25;" so that t.he clause will read: 

For incidental repairs at harbors for which there is no speci..'ll appropriation, 

$25,000. 

Mr. BOGY. I hope the amendment will not be adopted. I think 

it presents a question of very great importance. The time has come when the rivers of the interior country must be examined by scientific men and the facts developed by tho e examinations laid before Con: ~ress that they may let,rislate knowingly and intelligently on the subJect. To reduce this urn to $25,000 and to provide that it shall be used 

only for incidental repairs of harbors for which there is no special 

appropriation, is de troying the object which the House of Representatives had in view in appropriating $75,000 for examinations and 

surveys of rivers .for which there are no special ap-propria.tions. It is 

of the greatest im portancethat the rivers of the interior of the country, 

those great outlets and means of transportation by which the vast 

wealth of the interior of the continent can reach the ocean, should be 

examined, and the amount of$75,000 is very small for that object. The 

harbors spoken of here are harbors on the ocean and the lakes principally. 

In addition to that, we have a commerce in the interior of the 

country which is growing with enormous rapidity, anll it becomes the 

duty of Congress to legislate with a view to that vast and rapidly 

growing commerce in the West. An examination of these rivers is of 

t.he very greatest importance. I hope, therefore, the amendment will 

not be adopted, but that the appropriation will remain as it passed 

the House, at $75,000, for examinations and surveys of rivers, as well as for incidental repairs to harbors. 

Mr. HAGER. I agree with the Senator from Missouri in regard to 

the expediency and the necessity of retaining the section -proposed to 

be stricken out, so far at least as the Sacrament~ River below Tehama 

and the Feather River below l\Iarysville, California, are concerned. 

I will state that the Sacramento River traverses the Sacramento Valley, and I do not know that a dollar bas ever been expendecl upon 

that river by the Government hitherto. It ba,s a.ll been done by privat-e enterprise at the expense of private individuals to keep that 

river open. The whole expenditure upon the coast of California, which 

is far more extensive than that of the State o.f Michigan which the 

Senator has referred to, is $25,000. For that whole coast, from Oregon down to Mexico, the appropriation in this bill is the insignificant sum of 25,000 to remove a wreck iu the harbor of San Francisco. 

After astrugglethis clause was inserted in the Honse to obtain a survey 

of the SacramentoRiverfrom Tehama down, and of the Feather River 

from Marysville down, being navigable streams, and it is, I believe, 

the first attempt to improve those rivers by the order of the Government. 

Mr. SARGENT. My colleague will also find a survey provided for 

of the San Joaquin River below Stockton, a great channel of com- merce, in line 50, on the next page-- Mr. HAGER. I was going to see if the San Joaquin wa.s in. 

Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir; it will be found in line 51, page 16. Mr. HAGER. That river traverses the other valley runmnO' south. The prindpal portion of the arable lands of the State of Callfornia 

is the valley of the Sacramento and the valley of the San Joaquin, 

both of these rivers being navigable, and being necessary for the 

transportation of the agricultural products from the head of each 

valley to tide-water. No' it is proposed to obtain merely a survey 

in regard to the improvement of these rivers. Several hundred 

thousand dollars have hitherto been expended on the Sacramento 

River by the steam-navigation companies, and by private enterprise 

entirely. I hope this small effort to obtain some assistance for the 

navigable streams in California will not be stricken out, especially as we have but 25,000 for that whole Pacific coast appropriated in this 

bill. I propose to offer an amendment for an increase in regard to 

other harbors. 

I merely wish to make another remark. I find on page 1 of this 

bill this clause : 

For continuing the improvement of the harbor at Ont{)n::tgon, 23,000. 

I ask for information why that is there, after it ha been withdrawn 

by the Depa,rtment in the revised estimates which! hold in my hand, 

page 22Y 

l\Ir. CHANDLER. It. wa.s restored at the request of the board of 

engineers; and I hold their recommendation in my hand, which was sent, and very urgently sent, to the Committee on Commerce in the 

other House. Here is the recommendation. . Mr. HAGER. Then the Senator will thank me for giving him the 

opportunity of stating that. . Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly ; I do very much. Ur. MITCHELL. I desire to say It few words in reference to this 

matter. I shall oppose the amendment proposed by the Committee on Commerce by which they propose to strike out ''seventy-five," in 

line 32, on page 14, and insert "twenty-five." I shall also oppose the 

proposed amendment to strike out the whole of section 2 of the bill, 

and for tile reasons which I will state. It is substantially conceded 

by the chairman of the Committee on Commerce that there are sur- veys proposed by this section that are meritorious and that should 

bo retained in this bill; but it is said by the honorable chairman 

that t.hey may be retained by a committee of conferenee. Now, sir, I 

do not propose, so f~r as my action is concerned, to take the chances 

of a committee of conference in regard to a matter that is conceded 

to be right, in re~ard to surveys that ought to be retained in this bill, 

and which the cna.irman of the Comnnttee on Commerce concedes 

should be retained in it. I have seen enough of the action of com- mittees of conference in the short time I have been here to satisfy me that it is not very safe to trust to their action in regard to matters of this kind; and therefore I propose that what is right shall be · retained now by the Senate. 

The first survey contained in section 2, which has been stricken out 

by the Committee on Commerce, relates to the survey of the Cascades 

and Dalles to the Columbia River, Oregon, and Washington Territory. 

It may be that there are certain surveys provided for in this section 

that ought to be stricken out. If that is so, then it appears to me that that was the duty of the Committee on Commerce, and before 

reporting the bill they should have stricken out the proposed surveys 

that have no merit and retained those that have merit. Now, sir, in regard to the survey of the Columbia River, I desire 

to offer this suggestion : A great cry is made here to-day' by t.he representatives from the Mississippi Valley about t.he want of cheap 

transportation. They are paying I presume at the rate of but a little 

less than one cent per ton per mile, for getting their prpduce from 

Chicago to New York, for instance. I do not deny the justice of their 

complaint, but I desire to draw a comparison for a moment between 

the charges paid by the producer in the great Mississippi Valley and 

tlle charges imposed upon the producer m Oregon, Wa-shington Territory, and Idaho. The Willamette River is no mere creek, a it was designated by the Senator from New York [Mr. CONKLING] the other 

day. We are sending out to-day from the port of Portland on this 

"creek," so designated by the Senator from New York, over one hundred and fifty ship-loads of wheat the present year. We are paying 

to-llay for transportation from Portland to Umatilla, a distance of 

two hundred miles, a.. freight charge of twenty-five ,dollars a ton. This is at the rate of twelve and a half cents per ton per mile. 

How does that compare with the char~es imposed upon the people 

of the Mississippi Valley of one cent, m fact less than one cent per 

ton per mile that they are now paying f Nine and six-tenths mills. is about the average cost of water transportation between Chicago 

and New York, while by rail it is a little over one cent, twelve and 

one-tenth mills; whereas the people of Oregon and Washington 

Territory are paying for transportation on their freight on the great 

Columbia River at the rate that I have stated, namely, twelve and a half cents per ton per mile, and that in gold coin. Sir, this bill as reported by the Committee on Commerce propo es to give in all for the improvement of the Columbia and Willamette 

Rivers, how much f About $47,000 all told, less than 50 per cent. of 

the whole sum contained in the estimates for that service. If there is 

any one thing that the people of the North Pacific coa-st are unit-ed 

upon, it is on opening up the commerce of the Columbia River ; it is 

in favor of immedia-te surveys of the portages at the Dalles and the 

Cascades of the Columbia River, and estimates made in order that 
5178 CONGRESSIONAL RE.OORD. JUNE 19, 

the Government may be informed in regard to tho practicabHity of 

constructing dams and locks, and in re~a:rd to the cot of ncb improvement . Therefore I object to stri.lring out the whole ection 

containing proposed improvements so meritorious as this one i , simply because there may po ibly be certain proposed improvements 

contained in the section that have no merit. 

A survey is asked here of the Snake .River, extending on np to 

IU.aho, ·o as to connect the waters of the Columbia River with tho 

point where the North Pacific Railroad will strike the water of that 

river. A small appropriation is aske(l for the survey of that river. 

That ha · been stricken out, and yet it is a matter of vital impoliiance 

to the people of the North Pacific coast, ancl a matter that will co t 

comparatively but a small sum, as has been stated by my colleague. 

The Legislatures of Oregon, of Idaho, and of :Washington Territory 

have been unanimous in their demand for a survey aml estimates at 

the Cascades and Dalles of the Columbia River. It seem to me it 

would be doing that portion of our country a very great inju tice to refuse them the small favor they ask, of having a smvey made, wllich 

at mo t can cost but a very small sum, in order that the Engineer De- partment of the Government may be advi eel with reference to the 

practicability and cost of these proposed improvement . I do not desire to detain the Senate, but I insist that the ameiHlment proposed by the Committee on Commm·ce in reference to th.i. 

whole section should be votecl down and the section retaineu. ~Ir. CHANDLER. The Committee on Commerce recommenueu the 

striking ont of the whole section for the reason, that the recommenclations and papers on wllich this ection was put in were not before 

the Committee on Commerce. The committee were aware that there were orne sm·veys which ought to be maue. pndoubtedly tho e to 

which the Senator from Oregon alluues ought to be made; but in 

regaru to appropriations for Oregon every dollar that was recom- mended either in the original or the revised estima.tes of the engi- neers has been appropriated. 

:hlr.l\llTCHELL. I beg pardon. The Senator must be wrong. 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. I have the pap rs before me, and I say that in 

every instance the revised and original estimates have been followed 

in regard to Oregon, and J believe that is the only instance where that 

has been done in any of the appropriations before the Committee on Commerce. 

1\Ir . .P!UTCHELL. 'Vhat is the estimate for the Upper Columbia 

River • 1\Ir. CHANDLER. The original esti)nate was 20,000; the revised 

estimate • 20,000; :md the appropriation is 20,000. 

1\Ir. 1\UTCHELL. What doe the report of the Chief o~ Engineers 

say 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. I have it before me. · Mr. UITCHELL. I reau from page 1122 of the report of the Chief 

of Engineers : 

The following is a statement of the moneys expended anu available for this improv ment «luring the fiscal yearSp aking in reference to the improvement of the Upper Columbia 

RiverA vaila.ule July 1, 1872. . . . . . . . . . • . . • . • . • . • . • . . • . . • . • . . . . . • • . . . . . . . .. . . 50, 000 00 

Thn.t was the appropriation made in 1 72. · There was no appropriation made for the present fiscal year; and the 

Chief of Engineers is now speaking in reference to the appropriation made in 1 72, and the improvement made in 

pnr uance of that appropriation, antl he says : 

ExpendedRemoval of rocks ...••... : ................................ $19,296 69 

uperintendence, office expen es, &c........ .............. 2, 488 98 

21,785 67 

lhl:utce on hand June30, 1873.......... ...... ...... .•••..... ....• .•...• 28,214 33 

Amount required for :fi cal year 1874-'75....... •. . . ... .. . . ... . ... ... . .. . 50,000 00 

That is what the Chief of Engineers says in regard to it, that the 

amount required for the next fiscal year, not the present fiscal year, 

is $50,000. 

The amount asked for the next fiscal year will be applied to the improvement of 

Homly Rapid, and such other work as may tend eventtu1lly to put there t of the 

river, from the Dalles to the crossin~ of the North Pacific Railroa(l, (ne.•u· Snake 

River,) in the arne condition for naVIgation as the John Day, Umatilla, and Devil's 

Bcntl will be when the pre ent contract is finished. 

Next, in reference to the estimates for the .Upper Willamette River, 

the amount allowed by the Honse and also reported by the Commit- me on Commerce of the Senate is '7,500. I will rea-d what the engi- neer ays in relation to that. 

Mr. CHANDLER. If the Senator will pardon me, he is reading 

from the report of the local engineers, while I am reading from the 

rep01ii of the Chief of Engineers, as submitted by the President at the 

opening of the session. 'Ve are reading from entirely different documents. 

Mr. WEST. There is no particular question in the amendment tha.t concerns my locality, but I think the Senate ou~ht to uuderst.:<tnd .in 

general terms what the propo ition of the committee is. This bill a it comes from the Honse includes an appropriation of 75,000 for the 

sm·veys of the various water-clh'tnnels of the country embraced within 

twenty-six States and Territories of the Union. Therefore twenty- a~ Stape and Territories are interested in 1~.aving these surveys pro -

ecuted. The amount appropriated for this purpose last year wa 200,000. 

:Mr. CHANDLER. One hnnclrcll and twenty-five thousand dolln.rs. 1\Ir. \VEST. One hunured and twenty-five thon and dollars last 

year. Tile Senator i corr ct. I meant to ay that 200,000 was a ked for this year. Two hundred thousand dollar was a keel for, 

and the House of Repre eutatives have O'iv n 75,000, or 3,000 t.o 

each State and Territory, a\eragiug it, to be eli tributed throughout 

thi whole Union in the pro cntion of the smvey of the water courses of the country. Ha anything more pemuiou been recom- mended by any committee tha,n to reduce that down to 1,000 11er 

State and Territory f I do not think when the Senate uud rstand it 

they will accede to any uch proposition. :Mr. D.A. VIS. Let me correct my frienu from Loui iana. The com- mittee's amendment propo es to give nothing whatever to anv Sta:te 

for sm·veys; and if tile amendm nt be adopted no urvey 'can be made in any State. 

Mr. WEST. That is so, I ee, except for repair . Now, witll the 

experience we have bad appropriating here year after year hnuili· <l 

of thousands of dollar for this pnrpo e, when the Departm nt rusk 

for 200,000, it i penurious ancl poor economy to restrict it to mer ly 

25,000 for repair . I am convinced when the Senate nmler taml the 

matter they will vote it down. 

1\fr. WRIGHT. I wi I! to mak an appeal to tho S nate. I songht 

immediately after the clo e of the morning hour to call up the con- ference r eport on the currency bill. The enator from V rmont [1\fr. 

EDMUXD ] ex:pre eel n. wi b to look at the report, and ahl he wonlu 

be willing to take it up at the end of an hom. I find my elf quite 

in<lispo ed, and et exceeuino-ly anxious to get the confer nee revort 

out of the way. I n.m also xpectiug every moment to be callecl off 

upon another confercne corumi ttee. I have no wish to ay one wonl 

in reference to tbis report, but I trn t the Senate will bv nnanimon. con out let ns eli po e of it anu get it out of the way. I ask tiler fore 

unanimous con. ent that tbe conference report on Hou. e bill No. 1572 

be taken up. I do not want to ay a word on the subject, n.ml I hope 

the vote will be taken at once o that we get it out of the way. 

The PRESIDING OFJ.t'ICER. Is there objection to proce 'uing to 

tbe consideration .of the conference 1·eport on Honse bill No. 1572 

The Chair hears none, and it is before the Senate. 

1\Ir. D.A. VIS. Subject to call for the river and harbor bill if it haJl 

le:l(l to debate ' 

Mr. WRIGHT. Certainly. 

ME AGE FROM TilE HOUSE. 

.A. me sage from the House of Representative , by 1\.1]:.1\fcPrmn o ... ,., its Clerk, announced that the Hou e had concmred in the 1' olutiou 

of the Senate authorizin~ Spencer F. lluird, United State Commissioner of Fish and Fi bene , to have the engravings for bi 1·eport ex- ecuted under the direction of the Joint Committee on Public Printing. 

The me age also announced that the Hou e had pa ed the foil w- inO' bills: A bill (S. No. 954) prohibiting the pnblicat1ou of the r vi ed statutes 

of the United States in the newspapers at the expense of the United 

States; and · A bill (S. No.llO) for the relief of the East Tennessee University. 

The message al o announced that the House had pa eel the following bills and joint resolutions, in which it requested the concurrence of t.he Senate : A bill .(H. R. No. 3477) for the relief of Nelson Tiffany; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3761) directing the Secretary of the Trea nry to 

report upon the nece sity of a public building at the city of .A.ubmn, 

New York; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3762) to amend the act entitled ".An act for the erec- tion of a public building for the u e of the United tates in Atlanta, 

Georgia;" . . A. joint resolu ion (H. R. No. 112) directing the Public Printer to 

keep an account of all expenditures for printing, mailing, and binding the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, &c. j ancl 

.A. joint resolution (H. R. No. 113) making an appropriation for the 

pmchase and restoration to the family of the 1\Iarquis cle La Fayette 

of the watch presented to him by General W a hington. 

The me sage further announced that the House ha<.l pa ell a con- current resolution for the printing of three thousand copie of the 

statistical atlas of the United States ba ed on the re ult of the n:inth cen ns, now being compiled by Francis .A.. Walker. 

The message also announced that the House had passed a concur- rent resolution for the printing of twenty thousand copies of the Report of ·the Commissioner of Education; a concurrent re olntion for 

the printing of six thousand copies of the 1·eport, with appendix and 

evidence, of the Select Committee of the Senate on Tran portation 

Routes to the Sen.-board; and a concurrent resolution for the printing 

of the report of R. W. Raymond on mining stati tics, with the accom- panying engravings; in which the concurrence of the S nate was requested. ENROLLED BILLS SIG~D. 

The messaO'e also announced that the Speaker of the IIouse had 

signed the following enrolled bills; and they were thereupon signed 

by the President pro tempm·e: 

A bill (S. No. 176) to encourage the establishment of public marine 

schools; · 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5179 

A bill (S. No. 311) for the relief of Joseph Montamni; 

A bill (S. No. 595) for the relief of Benjamin Cooley antl James W. 

Boswell; 

A hill (II. R. No. 526) for the relief of James De Long; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1206) for the relief of Charles J. Samls, of Brooklyn, New York; . . . . .. A bill (H. R. No. 2034) making appropnatwns for the leg1slanve, 

executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for the year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes; 

A bill (H. R. No. 239 ) granting a medal to John Horn, jr., for _his 

heroic exploits in rescuing men, women, and children from <lrownmg 

in Detroit River; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2292) for the relief of William Walker; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2694) frn the relief of Benjamin W. Reynolds; 

A bill (H. R. No. 289 ) for the relief of J. & W. R. Wing, of New 

Betlford, Massachusetts ; . . . A bill (H. R. No. 3166) to correct the date of commiSsion of certam 

officers of the Army; A bill (H. R. No. 3171) to amend the customs-revenue laws aml to 

repeal moieties; :tnd . . . A hill (H. R. No. 3586) to authonze the constructwn of a bntlge across the l\li sissippi River at or near the city of La Crosse, in the 

State of 'Visconsin. 

PRESIDENTIAL APPROVALS. 

A message from the President of the Unitetl States, by Mr. 0. E. 

BABCOCK, his Secretary, announced that the President had this day 

approved and signed the following act : An act ( . No. 22 ) for the relief of Bigler, Young & Co.; and 

An act ( . No. 571) to authorize the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad 

Company to construct a branch and to change the location of its road 

witllin the District of Columbia., aml for other purposes. · 

TllE CURRENCY -BANKING. 

Tlle PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. FERRY, of Michigan, in the chair.) 

The conference report on the bill (H. R. No. 1572) to amend the ·everal 

acts proviuing a national currency and to establish free banking, and 

for other pnrposes, is before the Serutte.. · Mr. FLAi'fAGAN. If no other Senator is disposed to pre ent any 

oppo ition to this mea,'3ure it is very unnecessai'Y for me to do so; but 

my opinion is, canilidly, with all deference to my friend from Iowa 

and the committee, that it would have been better for this report to 

h:we slept for all time to come. It begins in nothing as I con- ceive, ancl ends most beautifully likewise. If there is beginning or eml to it I have not been able to fi.nu it. I suppose this is the action 

of the Cougres of the Unitell States after having been six months 

eai'nestly and closely engaged in endeavoring to do something towa1·d 

the resumption of specie payments, a subject that at last has been 

studiously, ingeniously, and well avoided, for it is ignored in every 

Aeuse of the word. If that is what this nation wants on the subject 

of finance, it is peculiady successful under this report. It is merely 

in my opinion the first direct step to repudiation. It is nothing else; 

smely it is nothing more, for in it the idea of aspecie resumption at 

any day, either direct or remote, is not alluded to, if I recollect the 

1·eacling correctly. 

Now, sir, I -think much better would it have been if this 'matter were permitted to pass quietly, no action being taken by Congress, 

hut admitting to the world frankly and without equivocation that 

the Congress of the United States were not able to grapple with the 

great subject, for most assuredly, as I have remarked, this is an un- qualified failure. It does nothing one way or the other, as I conceive, 

except to try to satisfy to some extent particular States who claim 

they have not been fairly dealt by in the distribution of facilities for 

organizing national banks. 

Under this hill I have no hesitancy in saying here that 20,000,000 

in the next current year will not be removed from the North for banking purposes West. I have no objection, so far as I am concerned, 

that every dollar of it Ahall be removed; but there will be no demand for it, as I conceive, to the amount contemplated here. I interpo e no objection what.ever; but that is the only boon that I can perceive will be realized, if·that should be, and I have no idea that it 

will he. Time will certainly demonstrate who is correct on that 

branch of the subject. 

But instead of meeting this great question as it deserves to he met, 

everything tending to a resumption of specie payments is directly 

ignoredforthepresent. Soregardingit, and looking at the action upon 

this subject for months pat, and invoking the history, if you please, 

not only of this nation from its earliest day to the present hour, but 

the history of the world, I amjusti:fi.ed in holding that we shall get 

further and further from resumption. Certainly it is not contemplated in this report, and I for one regret that the report hn. ever f01md its way to Congre s. . The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on agreeing to the 

report. . .Mr. FLANAGAN. I a k for the yeas and nays on this document. 

The yeas and nays were ordered. 

.Mr. EDMUNDS. This report, as far as it provides for the redistribution of banking facilities, I am entirely satisfied with, a-s we have 

often voted in the Senate and hav.e said over and over again. The 

chief objection that I ha>e to the report is that .it abolishes thereserve that the banks have hitherto been obliged to keep. Inasmuch as in my brief experience I never knew a bank that could honestly 

keep itself above water without keepin~ a reserve to meet the demancls in panics and sudden runs upon 1t, I think the provision in 

this report which provides for abolishing all reserves is a very clangerous and improper one. Yon may say that all prudent bankers will 

keep ·reserves. So they will; bnt all pruuent bankers, like prudent 

Senators, are sometimes tempted by per nasion to do things which if 

they were left entirely to themselves they would not do. And then 

there is another class of banks probably in this country, tho e who 

may be classed as not prudent bankers, those in respect to whom (as 

you have as to all banks, speaking largely) you must provide limitations and restraints by la.w. I think this the first time in the history of legislation respecting banks in any well-ordered community, as the United States is, where nuder any system of banking like this or any other that we have had, that it was proposed by law to provide 

in terms that no bank shall be obliged to keep a reserve t.o meet sudden runs upon it. Now to keep 15 per cent. of the deposits, for that 

is what I believe the country banks have to keep, merely to stand a run on deposits, is in a panic nothing at all; your 15 per cent. of d - po its would he run out before the first half of the tirst day if a run 

on a bank took 11lace. 

I think that we shall make a great mistake when we authorize the 

banks of the United States to Joan all the money that they have of ca.pital paid in and of deposits made, excepting the 15 pel' cent. of the 

deposits which is to be reserved for the pmpose of paying depo its. 

So far as the presentation of hills for redemption is concerned, us distingUished by a rnn by depositors, there probably is not any very 

great danger, because the boncls of the United States, with a reason- able credit to the Government, are sufficient for that, a.ltLough the 

bill-holders would be embarrassed if half the banks of the United 

States should refuse to pay all at once. It would force bomls of the 

United States upon the market to such an extent that it is altogether 

doubtful whether the security would be gootl even then. 

Bub, passing that, it does appear to me (and I should he glall to 

have my honorable frienu from Iowa explain becau!?e he may con- vince me that he is right) that it is most nnsouud in principle and 

most dangerous in practice for the futm·e to authorize these institutions, which we hold out to the people as existing under Government 

authority and entitled to credit, to loan aJ.l the resourc~ that they 

have of every description down to 15 per cent. of their deposits, he- cause I fear it will turn out, as I think human experience has shown 

it has generally turned out, that wherever a stress comes and people run for their deposits, as they always do in a panic, half the banks in 

the country will break for the reason that the law has allo·we(l them 

to strip themselves under the pressme fordiscotmtsof all their means to meet a run. I do not see that it is a sufficient answer to that to 

say that prudent banking would not be conducted upon such a principle, that prudent bankers would not loan all the money they had 

down to 15 per cent. of their deposits. 

Of comse, in a prosperous state of the conn try, with a flowing title, 

and with no breakdown, no panic, no sudden emergency which tlisturhs the operations of trade and comme~ce, it is of no consequence. 

So we may say that no limitation is of any consequence when the 

millennium comes; but we know, if the world goes on as it ha gone, 

that there will IJe once in tw.enty years at the furthe t a time wben, 

from natmal causes, not affected by legislation, not remediable by 

legislation, there will be a sudden depression of enterprise, of tra,de, 

of commerce, of industry, of all the business operations of the conn- try; there will he a panic, in short, or a crisis, or a bankruptcy, call 

it what you will according to degree, and then there will be a .sudden 

demand coming with the rapidity of a summer shower or a gust that 

will require from every bank in the cotmtry the w;ithdrawal of the 

deposits that have been made in it; and then this bank instead of 

being fortified as it is now by holding this percentage of all its re- sources, will have only, if it holds up to that, the 15 per cent. of Hs 

deposits; and the result will be, as anybody can see, that on ever:r such occasion one-half of the banks at least in the country will go to 

protest on the first day. Of course nobouy will maintain that that 

would be an advantage to the business of the country. Nobody will 

maintain that a bank ought to be allowed to lend money to such an extent that it cannot stand a rnn when some sudden pressure shall 

be brought to bear at a time when people, to meet their engagements, 

need the money which they have on deposit and which has been 

loaned out to omebody for other speculations. Sound banking can- not go on in that way; and therefore it is that it appears to me that we ought to consider at least the grounds upon which this report 

stands in the respect to which I have alluded. . I uo not know, after all we have clone, that I can have any expectation that this report will not be adopted. Of course it presents entirely 

different questions fi·om those which we have consideretl hitherto. 

They are not questions which affect one section of the country more than another, a anybody may uppose; but there is now presented, 

sepa.rat.e from other questions that have so divideu us, this simple 

question of business as it respects the safety of a principle of banking carried on under the authority of the Government. If there is 

any explanatio which my honorable friend from Io a can make to 

us, :is it may be there is-be is a much greater financier than I am in 

proportion to our respective capitals-then I should be glad to hear 

it. But it does appear to me, as I have said, that '!e shall make a. 
5180 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

great mistakeforthe protection of the business interests of this country 

and of the people who deposit their little savings and earnings in 

banks, if we allow a bank to loan out all of its capital, and all of its 

depo its save 15 per cent. of its deposits, (if that is the amount a.s to 

the country banks,) and thus put ourselves in an attitude where in a pressure the banks cannot pay back again to the depositors at once the money they have received. I should be very glad indeed to hear 

my friend from Iowa explain the grounds of this report. .Mr. WRIGHT. I h-ave but one word to say in that connection. 

The section in the report a.s it stands is precisely as it pa sed the 

House ~nd pas ed the Senate, and ha.s been agreed to by both Houses. Mr. E DMUNDS. But has not been brought under discussion. Mr. WRIGHT. There never has been any question raised on this 

part of the bill before. It seemed to be agreed to on all hands to this 

day to be a proper provision to release the reserve on circulat.ion and 

retain the reserve on deposits. The reason for it was that so far as the ecurity of the bill-holders was concerned there was ample secu- l::·ty in t he bonds here deposited, and that inca e of a panic the reserve that is provided for circulation would amount to nothing· in the 

world; and not only so but every good banker, every safe banker, 

would provide for his reserve judiciously without any provision of 

this kind. Therefore it was agreed on all hands that it was best to 

leave out the re erve on circulation. That point was W,scus edmore 

tllan once here in the Senate and the whole grouncl gone over. I do not propose to go into the matter at all. I am only anxious 

to have a vote and let the Senate dispose of this bill and get it out 

of the way. Mr. SHERMAi~. Ii the yeas and nays had not been called fur, I 

should not have said one word on this que tion; nor do I intend to 

say anything except to reply to one or two observations of the Senator from Vermont. As to tlle last three sections of this bill, as I 

understand, they are precisely similar to the bill for the redistribu- tion of the banking circulation reported early in the ession from the 

Committee on Finance. I do not see any variation. Mr. WRIGHT. Except in the amount. Mr. SHERMAN. Ye , instead of $25,000,000 the committee of con- ference insert 55,000~000 . -I call the attention o.t' the Senator from 

Vermont and other Senator to the sixth section of this bill : 

That the amount of United States notes outstanding and to be used as a :part of 

the circulating medium shall not exceed the sum of $382,000,000, which sru.d sum shall appear in each mon Lhly statement of the public debt, amlno part thereof shall be held or nsetl as a. reserve. 

I regard this section as chiefly beneficial as forever repealing the 

fictitious idea of a legal re erve. There is not ono word in any law of 

the United State which implies that any portion of t.he 400,000,000 

shall be held as a re rve. That is merely a mythical creation of the 

Treasury Department for the purpo e of keeping up the notes which 

hacl been canceled. 

Mr. ED~ UN S. That was not a point to which I poke at all. 

Mr. SHERl\1AN. I know that. This, however, will not prevent 

the accumulation of a nec~ssary working balance. Tho Senator from 

Iowa understands that. The Secreta.ry of the Treasury sometimes 

may have a balance of $2,000,000, and sometimes 20,000,000. This uocs uot interfere with that in the slightest degt·ee. 

Mr. SARGENT. Allow me to a ·k a question on that point. Suppose--a panic comes on, as before, when there i.s a Trea ury balance of 

$13,000,000, how would the-Secretary of the Treasury in view of this 

law stand up against a clamor to put that money out of the Treasury 

which it was insisted was re erved'l He woulu be asked, "\Vhy are yon holding it 'I" They would insist it should go out eit.her for the 

purchase of bonds or in other methods. It is maue unlawful for him 

to hold it, so when it is proper to hold it to guard the Treasu.ry, the 

Trea ury would soon be out of funds, as it would have been during 

the last panic under any such provision. . Mr. SHERMAN. As a matter of course if the Secretary of the 

Treasury ha-s 15,000,000, or whatever may be a nece sary working 

balance: he will be governed in paying out that money according· to 

the exigencies of the Treasury Department and not accorcling to the 

clamor of speculators if he performs his duty as this bill contem- plates t hat he shall. I simply wished to caU the attention of the Senate to t he fact that although the maximum is fixeu at '382,000,000, in 

this currency bill there is no provision a.llowing additional Unjted 

States not.es. Mr. SARGENT. Will t.he Senator how me any language in this or any other law that allows him to accumulat11 a working balance, 

if this provision stands that there shall be uo reserve T 

1\Ir. SHER !AN. It says that "no part thereof shall be held as re erve." " Re erve" is a technical name of an amonnt of money 

applied for a pecific purpo e, but a working balance is an amount 

of money useful for aU purpo e . That is the di1ference. "Re erve" 

i a ter.huical name which was applied first to the $50,000,000 re erved 

under the law of 1 64, and afterward to the mythical reserve created 

by the Treasury Department as a matter of book-keeping. 

·Now in regard to the second and third sectious-a.nd here I want 

the attention of tho Senator from Vermont-it is true that the second 

ection does abolish the reserve on circulation, and there never was any reason for. that re erve originally because the-security of the 

bonds was more than sufficient to secure the redemption of the notes; 

and it has been recommended by the Secretary of the Treasury at 

different times~ according to my recollection, and at any rate there 

has been a general demand that the reserve on circulation should bo 

abolished. The comnUttee of conference have in the thircl section 

provided a fixed, operative, and strong mode of redeeming nationalbank notes. Any holder of national-bank bills may pre ent them at 

any time at the Treasury and demand United States notes. The pro- visions of the third section are amply sufficient, in my judgment, to 

provide for the redemption of the national-bank note . There can be no qne tion of it. And in my judgment- ! record it her rather n a 

prophecy for the future than as an argument to the Seuat -this 5 

per cent. re erve will be more difficult to be maintained by the bank 

than the mere loss of the 15 per cent. reserve, three-fifths of which 

could be deposited in New York, and only two-fifths of which was required to be retained in the bank. In the third section there is a provision made by which the banks will be compelled t-o keep th m- selves strong enough in order not only to maintain the 5 per cent. in 

the Treasury, but in order to respond at all times to the demand of 

the Treasury for money to maintain this reserve of 5 per cent. There is nothing in this bill that lL.'tS not received the sanction of 

both Houses, taken separately. There is nothing iu this bill to which 

I thinJr any Senator ought to object, and I was in• hopes that every 

Senator would vote for this report without objection. The question 

of the increase of paper money, either in the form of gre.enback or bank-note , is postponed. The que tion of there umption of sp cie 

payments is po tponed. There is no time fixed and no provision here 

made for the resumption of specie payments. All that this bill <loes 

is to modify slightly the reserve of the national banks, to make a pract.ical provision for the redemption of bank-notes, and to provide 

for a reilistribution of bank circulation. Every one of these object , it seems to me, ou&ht to meet the concurrence of the Senate by a nnanimous vote, ana I was in hopes the report would pass without a division. 

Mr. SARGENT. I think this bill is very much better than any 

other one that we have had up heretofore with a prospect of pa a.O'e. Neverthele sit seems to me that there are some infelicities in the bill 

which it is to be regretted are not eliminated from it and that there 

is now no opportunity to do so. I certainly cannot vote for the bill ·with my understanding of the 

sixth section. There is, as the Senator from Ohio remarked, no law 

defining what a reserve is, so that the word "re erve" may just us well be applied to a working balance as to an amount in dispute between the Trea-sury Department and the Congress of the United States as to the sum which shall b'A outstanding of Unitecl States notes. Mr. SHERUAN. If I stated that there was no law defining the 

meaning of "re ·erve,". I stated it too strongly. There is one defini- tion, the only definition on the statute-book of are erve of United 

State notes, and that is there erve defined by the act of 1-64, which 

provides that in exce s of the four hundred million there may be a reserve of fifty millions which shall l.}e n ed only for the purpose of 

paying the floating iudebtedne.ss or accruing indebtedness, and shall 

be used for no other purpose, and hall be retired and canceled when 

the uebt for which it is reserved is discharged. .Mr. SARGENT. The Senator is entirely correct in reference to 

that, but that relates to a pa t age, a past conrl.ition of things. There 

is now no amount of 400,000,000 of United States notes and ho 

sso,ooo,poo beyond that authorized by any existing law ; so that thel'e is now no law on the statute-book, as the Senator remarked before, 

and certainly :remarked accurately, defining what i meant by a re- erye; and the only thing this ection can take hold of in the way of re erve is the working balance which it may be desirable to retain 

in the Trea-sury for the very purpo e of meeting floating indebtedne s. The object of making this appear in each monthly statement of the 

pnblicdeutis to see that.theTreasury is kept bare, that the $3S2,000,000 

of mon·ey are kept out and do not come in there to be held as a re erve or a working balance; and under that condition of things the Treas- ury is liable to go to protest any day in the year, and most e pecially 

is the Secretary of the Trea ·ury liable to olicitation, to pres nre, to 

complaint, to clamor, which it is diffieult for any man to resist in the 

time of a panic when there are repre entations made to him and to 

the Pre ident of the United States pressing upon t.hcm that an emis- sion of a few more millions of money will tide the country over bankruptcy, will prevent disastrous consequences, and then he is point d 

to a law which expr ly declare that no part of the 3 2,000,000 hall" 

be kept or used as re erve; and the interpretation is in isted upon, 

and is a rea-sonable interpretation, that that means that he shall not re erve any portion of that amount in the Treasury for any purpose 

whatever. He would be required under this law by a reasonable inter- pretation of it to pay it out, and then the Trea my goes to protest, 

au<l the Treasury it elf would baTe been bankrupt during the last 

panic provided a law like this had been upon the ·tatute-book. For that reason and others which I might name, I cannot as ent to 

the report, and I desire, when the yeas and nay are called, to record 

my vote in the uegati ve. Mr. STEVENSON. I desire to say a single word. The committee 

of conference have been called upon to consider and act npon the 

cljfficnlt problem of reporting some projet upon the currency which 

should heartily receive the concurrence of both Houses of Congress. To iu ure succe s for any recommendation it was nee ary at the 

outset that the conferees should in their action endeavor to agree on some plan of adjustment which would reconeile the variant views and 

diverse expressions of ?Pinion which had found vent in the long clis-
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5181 

cussion of our fina,nces going through so many months of the present 

se~>sion. 

The report upon your table is the-result of the labors of that con- ferenee. I have hitherto taken no part in this financial debate, and 

shonld not now do so, bntthat I was on the conference committee. No one will pretend that the report contains all that Senators upon either 

side might desire. A conference from its nature implies concession 

and compromi8e of opinion between the two Houses. This report 

seeks thut object. It recommends in the main two simple propositions, each of which separately have hitherto received a laro-e ma- jority of this body. Mr. President, I ha,ve myself been neither for 

contraction nor expansion. I preferred to stand still. I have strongly 

desi1:ed to see at the earliest possible moment at which t.he condition 

of the country would allow it without injury to its interest and without pecuniary distress a resumption of specie payments. I have been, 

however, unwilling to take any step which shoult.l inflate the cur- r ency beyond the point of legalizing the twenty-six millions of greenl>acks issued by the Secretary of the Trea.sury, and reducing tax upon 

the circulation of the State banks to the standn,rd of taxation imposed 

upon national ba.nks. I desired neither to add to the volume of irredeemable national currency, nor to contract it by :fixing any short day 

for specie payments. I have always desired a just distribution of the 

circulation according to wealth and population from the East, which 

has more than its quota, to the South and West. 

I have been reared, Mr. President, in a political school whose fomfders 

denied that Congress possessed any constitutional authority to charter national banks. They warned us that the creation by Congress 

of large, iiTespousiule moneyed corporations might endanger the liberties of the cotmtry. Their political faith was that gold and silver 

constituted the only true standard of value and wa the only currency 

known to and contemplated by the Constitution of the United States. 

While it is true that eminent statesmen differed on the question of 

constitutional power to charter a bank, all of them, from Alexander 

Hamilton to Andrew Jackson, including Daniel Webster himself, 

believed and argued that Congress possessed no power to substitute 

paper or anything else for coiu as a tender in payment of debts and in 

discharge of contracts. Had this orthodox faith of the fathers been 

adhered to, what financin.l distre s ant.l loss of property would have 

been spared from panics inaugurated by a fluctuating, deranged, depreciated currency; what n.n amount of debt would have been spared the 

country! 

Our present nationn.l-bank system sprung from and was the direct 

outgrowth of the late rebellion. Its founder acknowledged it as a war measure, not sanctioned in peace by the Constitution. Congress 

has solemnly pledget.l itself to use all means and take all necessary 

steps for a prompt redemption of this paper currency. Nine years 

hn.ve passed away since the cessation of hostilities, abundant ha1.·vests 

have blessed the ln.bors of our people, and yet Congress is ur~ed at 

thi session to increase the volume of greenbacks and national-bank 

cUITency without providing means for its redemption in coin. 

I felt constrained to resist this proposed inflation. I was at all 

times ready to legalize to the amount of twenty-six millions of greenback illegally put into circulation by the late Secretary of the Treasury nnd keep them in circulation. I fayored a redistribution of the 

circulat.ion of greenbacks upon t.he basis of wealth and population 

and desired a transfer of :fifty or sixty millions from the East to the 

South and West. I desired a reduction of the tax upon the circulation of State banks from its present unjust standru:d to that imposed 

upon the national banks. I could not and will not cast a vote to inflate the currency of national banks, nor couldivotefor free banking 

except on a basis of redemption in gold and sHver. I have been com- pelled to differ in my votes on this question from many of my friends 

in the South and .. West with whom I am accustomed to act.. Wehave 

been led to different lines of action from a convietion of duty. I h:we been severely criticised for my course. I pass it by. Every 

public man is subject to criticism. I have been charged with open 

misrepresentation of my constituency in my votes on the currency 

question. I have received no such expression of the popular sentiment in Kentucky as enables me to say whether my constituency approve or disapprove my course in resisting inflation. I am proud to 

say I have received neither in the democratic press of my State nor by 

private letters any proof of such popular disapprobation. 

I have in every vote which I have given on this currency questiun 

followed old democratic landmarks illustrated by Jefferson and Jack- son in their allherence to a sound, fixed standard of value. While I 

have not sought to hasten a speedy resumption of specie payments or given any vote looking to such an immediate result because I did not 

wish to produce sudden contraction, I have, upon the other hand, 

sought steadily to prevent an inflation of the cUITency in irredeemable 

pa.per or free bn.nking on a paper basis, but prefeiTed quietly to hold 

to our present position, which I trust will lead to specie resumption 

durin o- the next three or four years. 

Mr.hesident, the people of Kentucky have a large experience on the subject of a depreciated paper cUITency. They are not easily 

persuaded that one paper depreciated dollar can be converted into 

two dollars by cutting it into two parts. Their native sense tells 

them that the value of a currency is to be measured by its purchasing capacity on a standard of gold and silver. They will not be deceived. 

They know that the laboring masses have the deepest interest in a sound, stable currency convertible into specie. 

Whatever it costs to convert the depreciated paper money received 

by the producer or laborer into specie is a loss to that ext~t upon 

them. The greater the excess of our paper circulation above the busi- ness wants of the country the greater the depreciation of our paper 

currency below a specie ~;tandard. It is this excess which I desire to 

avoid. The only test of an excess of circulation is to be found in the 

fact that our green backs or paper promises to pay twenty or one hundred 

dollars can only be cashed by the lai..Jorer or producer who receives 

at one hundred cents on the dollar at eighty-eight cents. .An Ameri- can dollar should buy a silver dollar in England, adding the cost of 

transportation, because the laborer received it here as a silver dollar. 

But take our greenbacks to England and (outside of the cost of transportation) they would be received by labor for its purchases there at a fraction of a little over eighty-five cents. The producer or laboring man would by practical experience learn where the loss would fall. 

But besides I am opposed to any increase of the power of the 

national ba.nks. Never have the warnings of Andrew Ja-ckson against 

the danger of colossal moneyed corporations appeared more prophetic 

than at this hour. Let those who desira to avoid these dangers take care how they add to or increase the power of these national banks. 

If we are to inflate at all let us a-dhere to the greenbacks, and not 

entail increased taxation upon the people by increasing national-bank 

circulation. 

But I have been inadvertently drawn from my purpose, :which was simply to explain the conference report. The redistributing by a transfer of fifty-four millions from the East to the South and West 

when the business need of the latter shall require it, is a matter so eminently just and equitable and so often voted by Senators from every. section and of opposite opinions, that there would seem to be no possible objection to that. Upon the subject of the twenty-six millions 

of greenbacks, the circulation of which is legalized by this report, I 

have already said aU that is necessary. 

I think the repeal requiring redemption in New York will be fotmd 

to work well in practice. So long as tho banks were required to re- deem in New York they were compelled to keep a certain portion of 

their circulation there. During the panic of last September I am quite sure that some of the strongest banks in Cincinnati and Covington were unable to get any of their circulation deposited with the 

banks inN ew York for redemption, but had to go through upon mere certificates of the New York banks. 

The conference report sought to embody only these propositions as a whole which in the protracted discussions of the past few months 

seemed in the Senate to have been generally concurred in. 

The report is not subject to the criticism that if it be adopted 

the Secretary of the Trea.sury must keep out the whole of the 

three hundred and eighty-two millions. There is nothing in this 

objection which deprives the Secretary of the Treasury of keeping 

always that safe working balance which prudence and experience will ever suggest and demand. And the words of the amendment, that no part of the three hundred and eighty-two millions shall be regarded as a reserve, are not opposed to or inconsistent with that wmking 

balance. As the Senator from Ohio [ h. SHERMAN J justly said, the 

word" reserve" is a technical term in the banking act, and doe not and 

cannot by any just construction apply as a rest1iction upon any safe 

working balance which every Secretary of the Treasury always and 

necessarily must keep on hand. 

Mr. President, while I am opposed to inflation, in every vot-e I have 

given I have sought to avoid the evils of a suddenly diminished cir- culation. The committee gave up free ban1.'ing because such a sys- tem demanded a gold basi , or a :fixed day at short date for resumption of specie payments. That might, and possibly would, have led 

to sudden contraction by the banks by a refusal of renewals and in a preparation for resumption. 

They gave up a convertible bond at low inierest because it could not 

command general concurrence. I hope the report will be concurred iu. 

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. P1·esident, in a very early part of this session 

I expressed the opinion that what we ought to do was to redistribute a portion of the national-bank currency. I was very much of the 

opinion that that was all we should do, and I am confirmed in it by 

the report of this committee of conference. I shall vote for agreeing 

to this report. I believe it is the best thing that we are likely to 

agree upon. In fact, if it be rejected, nothing will be effected by 

Congress. 

Objection has been made on account of the abolition of the reserve on circulation; but I think practically this provision for keeping 5 

per cent. in the Treasury and allowing notes to be presented there 

and redeemed in greenba-cks will prove in practice more efficient than 

the present circulation reserve. That is my :firm belief. At present 

there is no such thing as the redemption of bank-notes. They are not 

presented becau e you cannot assort them and go off hundreds of 

miles to get greenbacks for them; but under this provision, although 

it will impo e some pretty onerous duties on the· Treasury Department, there will be a practical redemption of bank-notes to a very 

considerable amount in greenbacks, and as those greenbacks mn.y be 

made to appreciate in value and come nearer to specie, so will this 

redemption become more common and be of more value. 

Without taking up the time of the Senate on this subject, and with- out certainly saying that this bill is just what I would have it to be 

if I had the making of the law, for it is not-and perhaps what I 

would wish would not snit anybody else exactly-! say that in my 
5182 CONGl~ESSION.AL RECORD. 

j~dgment the bill which is now reported contains but little ornoevil 

and may be productive of considerable good; and as it is the la-st 

chance we have of agreeing upon anything I have come to the con- clusion that I can and ought to sustam the report. .Mr. :MORTON. Mr. President, I shall vote for this report a.s being 

the best thing we can get at this ses ion, and the only thing ; but I 

do not support it as the full or complete measure of justice or as at all 

meeting -the public demands and exigencies, and in nowise a-s a ettlement of the question which is before the country. The question 

is to whether the monopoly feature of the national banking system 

shall be aboli bed, as to whether the legal-tender act shall be re- pealed, and all questions coming in that purview are left to the future. 

I vote for it as a matter of imperfect and very tardy justice. As a measure of distribution it come just twenty-five millions short of the 

amount required for a full redistribution, as shown by the report of 

the Comptroller of the Currency. Any measure of distribution ought 

to be a full one, and there is no good reason why this should not 

have been a full one. But, Mr. Pre ident, there are some good features about this bill a ide from the question of doing justice to States that have been shorn 

of their proper proportion of banking facilities under the original 

ba is for the di tribution of that currency. The be t feature about 

this bill is the one that was criti,cised by the Senator from Vermont, 

that it abolishes the reserve on circulation. That is a cast-iron re erve, 

the banks being required by law to keep it at all times without regard 

to demand, without regard to panic or anything else. Mr. EDMUNDS. Does the Senator mean to sr~y that that is the 

pr ent law; that they are bound t,o keep this reserve at all time ¥ 

Mr. MORTON. They are bound to keep a reserve on circulation 

equal to a certain amount, and if it is ever diminished they have got 

to make that up. Mr. EDnfUNDS. 0, yes; that is another thing. 

Mr. MORTON. I do not say that they would have to keep it up in 

advance. I mean that when they pay it out they have got to make 

ii; up under the law immediately. l\lr. EDMUNDS. Precisely. That is another thing. The Senator 

stated that they were bound to keep it at all times and again t all 

demands. I thought that the pre ent law was that they were bound 

to keep it aud not loan it, to have it ready to meet demands on them 

for their circulation or for their depo its, and when it gets below 

they are bound to make it up again. · l\Ir. MORTON. I stated what I meant by it, and I do not think my 

friend misunderstands me. I stated that this was to be kept as a castiron reserve without regard to panic and without regard to depo its, a re erve of 15 per cent. in country banks on circulation ancl of 25 per 

cent. in the redemption cities. There never was any good rea on for 

it. Practically the banks are not called upon to redeem, for the rea- on that there is but little n e in redemption. Bank-notes are o good 

that people do not care about having them redeemed. There is no u e in going to that trouble. The bank-notes are p rfectly secured 

by the bonds deposited in the Treasury of the United States, and the 

I eople have entire confidence in the currency. It is not theca e of au old-fashioned bank-note, where the people were never certa,in that 

the bank had the gold to redeem. 

That law now require the banks to keep 15 per cent. of reserve on cir ula,tion, which just to that extent diminishes their capacity to ac- commodate the p ople. Three-fifths of the reserve of country banks 

may be kept in the cities of redemption. What ha-s been the practical effect of that 'I That w bile two-fifths had to be kept locked np in 

th vaults of the bank under thelaw, being 6perceut., three-fifths or !) per cent. the banks were compelled to send to other cities and loan 

there as a depo it, getting only 4 per cent. on it, while the people in 

their neighborhoods were deprived of the use of th~Lt money as a matter of accommodation. The people in the cities got it, ancl the 

banks used to loan it at 4 per cent. instead of being a,llowed to loan it as they would their other fund , at the current rate of interest. This 

bill corrects that evil, o that the banks may now keep the whole of 

thi money at home to loan to the people in the neighborhood without 

b ing requil'ed to send three-fifths of it off to a distant city. The eftect of the abolition of re erve will be, as I am advi ed, that 

in busy seasons of the yeru:, say when the crops are to be moved, it 

,,-;]1 set free and put into circulation some $31,000,000 of legal-tender 

notes that the law now requires the banks to keep locked up in t,heir 

vault . It is a practical measure of relief, it is a practica,l measure of 

expansion to that extent. o far a-s my own Sta,te is concerned this bill will afford to her I 

pre ume but very little relief. She may get half a million under it. 

I do not know what the calculation will be. She may get even le s than that, because she ha come up within several hundred thousa,nd 

dollars of her technical proportion under the original basis of apportionment made out ten yea,rs ago. In the mean time the State has 

grown enormously. No State is growing faster according to her 

popuJa,tion, or developing more r:1p1dly; and yet there were before 

tho panic from twenty to forty localities in my State that ne~ded 

bank and willneeu them and will be glad to have the opportunity of 

establishing them, if the law allows them to do so, whenever the 

times shall improve a little. This bill does not afford much relief to 

my State so far as increased banking capital is concerned. So br as Ohio is concerned I presume she will not get a dollar under this bill, 

and some of those States that really need banking facilities, which 

are among the mo t p1·op:re ive and growing State , will ('t t no relief; but such State as Illinoi , Mis ouri, Iowa,, Wisconsin fuunesota, and all the Southern States will have a, large portion of tbo 

circulation allotted to them that they ca,nnot now get. To that 

extent justice will be done to them and relief ""ill be afforded to 

them. But so far as other States that need circulation almo t or quite as badly are concerned, they will get little or none under it. 

So far as they are concerned, therefore, the question is simply post- poned. 

Now I want to say a word in regard to tlie que tion made about 

the Trea ury re ·ervc. One of the good features of this report is that 

it aboli hes wha,t i called the 44,000,000 r erve. It de troys that 

idea. What was that idea That there were 44,000,000 in the Treasury, the difference between 56,000,000 and 00,000,000, that might 

be i ned when needed, a.nd when the pre sure had passed by shoultl 

be taken hack into t.he Treasury, and if you please canceled in the 

Trea ury or laid away as re crve, and not as a part of the workin('t 

balance. That is entirely separate and di tinct from the idea, of ~ working balance. When the panic began the Treasury had a working balance of about 13,000,000 that wa wholly distinct from the 

reserve, and the Government did employ, I believe, the entll·e working balance in the purchase of bonds, comm ncing about the 20th of 

September, and the working balance wa expended in tha.t way. Dn t 

afte ;ward, when the revenue ran short, the reserve was brought out 

not as a part of the wo1·king balance, but a a re erve, entirely inde: 

pendent of the $26,000,000 afterward i ·sued. The theory was ent r- ta,ined by the Secretary of the Treasury, and it has been lately re- stated in the President' veto message, that thl was a balance to be 

preserved, kept on hand for emergencie , so that under that theorv 

the Secretary of the Trea ury could contract the currency in circnhition, independent of the nece ary working balance of ten or :fifte n millions, with the first surplus revenue at his command to the amount ,of $26,000,000. 'I'hat is a perpetual threat ha~~ing over the count.ry. 

That power is taken away distinctly by thi bill. Therefore the fear 

of contraction resulting from taking back i uto the Trea ury the . 26,000 000 of the 44,000 000 re erve ha been ta,ken away. 

I hall for the reasons I have given support the bill, but not as a settlement of the grea,t question. 

Ir. BUCKINGH.A.M. I should like to inquire of the Senator from 

Ohio the effect of the third section of this bill. It provid a, new ·way for redemption. I want to inquire what the effect of that plan 

of redemption will be upon the exchanges of t·he country. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I do not think it will have any effect, except this: 

The fir t effect of it will be to bring in all the worn and mutilated 

bank-notes, of which it is estimated there a,rc nearly 100,000,000, 

nearly a third of the whole amount of circulation, unfit for u . \V 

end avorcd by a law of last winter to get it in, and failed because th 

banks did not make the requisite application. nder this third · c- tion that currency will all come in and be exchanged for new notes 

of the same banks. I do not think it will make a,ny difference in th 

exchanges. 

Mr. llUCKINGHAl\I. I it not a fact to-lhty that there is no co t ou exchanges between one section of the country and another 'f 

.Mr. SITERMAN. I uo not think this will make a,ny difterence in 

that rc pect. 

l\fr. BUCKINGHMI. I not that a fact to-day 

Mr. SHERMAN. That is now the fact. 

l\fr. BUCKINGHAM. _It b ing a fact that there i no cost to any 

party iu making ox hange b tween one section of the country a,u~l 

another, the que tion ari~:>e , why i that T I think it is becau ·e you 

have atlopted the pre ·ont .ystem of bank-note redemption iu th diEfcrcnt bthine s center of the country, auu they all settle iu the 

centers of commercial bnsine . 

Mi·. SHER.:'liAN. I fear I mi undcrst.oocl the question. 'I'h Senator a keu if there was no uitforence in tbe rate of exchange now·. There is not on bank bill , bnt there is on money certainly. Exchange on aint Louis and Cincinnati and leveland is at a, little 

premium. I thought the cnator confined hi question to bank-not,e . :Mr. BUCKINGHAM. It is a fact that ther may be at times a, «li fference in the cost of exchange between Now Orleans and New York 

and other section of the country. 

l\fr. SHERMAN. It i o b tween New York a,nd every city almost. 

Mr. ALCORN. It is very rare indeed to :fiml exchange a.t par in 

any portion ofthe oountTy. It is n"'arly always either at a pmmimn mafuconn~ · 1\lr. BUCKING HilL I understand that; but at the same time I 

understand that b:1nk-notcs are of equal value in all part of tl.lo 

country. Let me put thi que tion, then, to the enator from Ohio: 

if you adopt this sy m of redemption will bank-notes be of qual 

va,lue in all sections of the country 

l\fr. SliER IAN. Certainly. Bank-notes in every portion of tbc 

country can be sent to Wa ·hingtou ancl here be redeemed. AJ:> :t 

matter of course, a every ba,ulr iH bm.mu to receive the note of e\'N'Y 

other bank, there can be no ili.fference in that re pect. It may 110 

possible that if bank-note· should accumulate in New York or'an 

other place largely, they would be s nt to Washington for reuernption in greenbacks. 

Mr. B CKINGHMI. Will not then a bank-not,e in Saint Louis or Cincinnati be worth a much le s than par 3 it would co t to tran _- port it from Saint Louis or Cincinnati to the Treasury 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5183 

Mr. SHERMA...~. I think it is so now. Sometimes greenbacks are at a premium over bank-notes because of tho <.lifficnlty of redemption. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. Not on that amount, I believe. 

Mr. SHERMAN. It is because it is practically impossible to assort 

the notes of the various banks and present them to the proper bank 

for redemption. 

1\Ir. BUCKINGHAM. fy own iuea of this section is that if it be- comes a law and the system of bank redemption should. ever be of 

a.ny value sothatyou could exchange a bank-note for coin, you will 

timl a great difference in the exchanges, much to the injmy of the 

commercial interests of the county. 

Mr. 1\lORRILL, of Vermont. I was somewhat surprised to see with 

what cordiality my friend, the distinguished Senator holding the 

place of chairrna,n of tho Committee on Finance, walk::~ up to this 

report of t.he conference committee. 

Mr. SHERMAN. There is not a word in this bill but what my 

friend from Vermont himself has cordially and heartily consented to 

1·eport a-s I understand. 

1\Ir. MORRILL, of Vermont. The Senator is mistaken. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. What part is there that the Senator has not 

agreed to' 

1\Ir. MORRILL, of 'Vermont. t makes a mighty difference whether 

the e provisions are coupled h others or not. The e provisions 

might be a,cceptcd if they were couplecl .with some others looking 

toward specie resumption. I understand that the Senator from Ohio 

ha,s from the out et called our attention over and over again to the 

tlnty, to the pledges that Congress was under of looking a,t the earli- est practicable time for a resumption of specie payment . Now, there is 

not one word, syllable, or sign of specie resumption in this proposed 

conference bill. 

1\Ir. SHERUA..l~. Decause I cannot get a majority of both Houses 

of Congress to agree to specie resumption, shall I therefore refuse to 

vote for every bill on the subject of banking and cmrency' I ask my 

friend from Vermont whether he himself did not vote for this redistri lmtion bill when wo roportetl it early in the session, separately and 

byitselff 

1\rr. MORRILL, of Vermont. To that part of the present report I 

make no objection, anti I shoaltl Yote for it cheerf1illy separate aml 

llistinct or coupled. 'vith anything elt:le to which thore were no valid 

objections. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Ira the Senator not votell for and doe-s he not 

agree to this mode of redeeming bank-notes in greenbacks in 'Vashington at the Troa n ry ~ 

.Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont But whenever I have votetl for ·that 

it ha been coupled with other provit:lions looking toward specie re- sumption. In the former bill where these provisions wore inserted 

there wa a posit.ive provision for the redemption of the legal-tender 

notes to the amount of $82,000,000. All that is now lef-t out. But, 

Mr. Presiueut, I :.tm quito aware that Senators, after having a subject 

of tbis kind long ·lJeforo them, h<tving d.c!Jatetl and di cussed the ma.tter until every one is ·weary of it, are oftentimes contented to accept a very crnd.e and even dista-steful 1Jill. Like some yo·ung gentlemen 

who propose and. get refu.serl three or four times, they are at last quite 

1·oatly to accept something far loss attra-ctive than that they sought in 

the .first in~:>tance. 

Now, 1\lr. President, I uosire to callttttention to the second section 

io relation to the reserves. The Senator from Ohio farthest from me [Mr. TIIURlllA.!.~] seems to think that this will operate so a-s to be as great a burden upon the banks as it wonld be to have the entire 15 

per cent. reserve. I differ with tho Senator from Ohio. There will 

be nothing redeemed at the Tre~umry Department except old, worn, 

an<l mutilated bills. That is all that wm be clone in the way of 

redemption so long as we a,re not to reduce the volume of legal-tend.- ers aud no steps are taken toward specie resumption. Under such 

circumstances, of course the entire amount of reserves save what is 

deposited at the Trea m-y of the United States will be at once let 

loose and thrown npon the country, and., as tho Senator from Indiana 

has properly said, it is to that extent so much expan.sion. I thought 

that -many Senators bore were pled.god that they would not go for 

anything in the way of positive expansion, and it is obvious t.o us all 

that this must result to that extent in so much direct expansion. 

Mr. l\!ORTON. I would call the Senator's attention to the fa.ct 

that the 5 per cent. in the Trea-sury is not a part of the reserve on circulation, but to be counted as part of the reserve required by law 

to 1Je kept on deposits, so that the entire reserve in circulation is set 

frco . 

.Mr. fORRILL, of Vermont. That i::~ the w::ty I nmlerstan<l it. Bnt, 

l\1r. President, there is another provision in this bill, and that is .in · rolittion to the 3 2,000,000 of United States note-s. That is now to 

he the legal amount of logal-tenuers that are to bo issued. and kept 

in circulation. Here again is another large amonnt of positive ex- pansion, to the ex~nt of perhaps 26,000,000. I understand, J1erhaps not by authentic information, bnt at the same time I have heard 

that a considerable number of millions of the $26,000,000 that were outstanding have been redeemed aucl are now in the Trca-sm·y. This 

provision will require t,hat even what has been 1·edeemed for the last 

month or two shall be reissued. 

1.1r. WRIGHT. Will the Senator from Vermont allow me to a,'Sk 

him one question 'I 

Mr. MORRILL, of :Vermont. Certainly. 

l\lr. WRIGH:r. I will preface it by stating that I understand that 

the $26,000,000 at one time was issued, and therefore the maximum 

volume outstanding was $3 2,000,000 at one time. The amount over 356,000,000 wa-s issued either legally or illegally. If it was illeg::tl, 

then it was improperly out; but it was issued untler a claimed power 

of the Secretary of the Treasury to issue it. That being so, and th 

Department putting that construction upon the statute, is it not better that we settle this thing one way or the other and say what shall 

be the legal volume of outstanding legal-tenders~ That is all it is 

proposed to do in this section, to settle the question so that the 

Trea.smy cannot legally1 according to the Senator's theory, issue moro of this money. It has been outstanding; it is outstanding yet, as far as I know ; and we merely say that that shall be. the volume. 1\fr. MORRILL, of Vermont. It is of course better to sett-le tho 

question, but it is far better that it should be settled right. I never had a doubt but what that was issued improperly, to say tho least. 

Mr. THURMAN. Will my friend allow me to make a suggestion f 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Certainly. 

1Ur. THURMAN. The Senator, if I apprehend his remarks arigh , says that this bill would liberate some of the greenbacks that :.u 

now in the Treasury, some of the 26,000,000 that we1·e issued last 

fall, and that have now fotmd their way ba-ck to the Treasmy. Pray 

how can they get ont of the Treasury unless there is some debt to 

pay; and if you do not pay debts with these greenbacks, what do 

yon pa.y the debts in T 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. They could get out of the 'l'l·easmy 

in various ways besides paying for om current expenses. They could 

bo set apart as a portion of the sinking fund. 

1\lr. President, there is a confession on the part of t_be Senator from 

Indiana that entirely justifies me in voting against this conference 

report. He ha announced that it is not a settlement of any of the 

questions here except as to the matter of justice in the rellistribntion 

of the banking circulation held by States now having an excess. Under 

these circumstances, as this proposition takes no step towartl specie 

resumption but seems to banish it entirely for tho present and for the 

future, and instead largely provides for inflation, I feel that I cannot 

vote for the bill. 

There is one thing more in relation to the last section. It seems to me that this provision for a redistrilJution of $55,000,000 ought to 

have had some limitation; that this threat over the banks of the 

North and the East should not be helcl as a perpetual terror over them; that if the States deficient in banking capital shonld not 

call for it say within two or three years, that after that time t.hey 

should. be required to forever hold t.heir peace. I am quite willing 

to give the States that are deficient an opportunity to take any amount 

of banking capital that they desire, rather than to flood. the· conn try 

with inedeemable paper; but I do think that it is nnfair to hold this measmo impending forever over these banks in theN orth and East be- cause they cannot properly do business and risk the withdrawal of 

their circulation at any moment. They cannot safel.y d.iscotmt t-he same class of paper; the.y must only discount paper on call; and under such 

circumstances it seems to mo that it is very unfair not to fix some time when this provision shall expire. 

I do not desire to discuss the que tion at length. We have had a sufficient amount of discussion upon it heretofore, and. bnt for the 

provisions in the bill which provide for at least fifty or sixty million 

dollars of actual expansion, I should most certainl,v have voted. for it. 1\fr. EDMUNDS. 1\fr. President, the Senator from Indiamt is quit-e 

right, as he generally is, when he says that this is to be taken, not as a finality, not a-s what the country requires, bnt as a mere temporary exped.ient, if I <.Ud not misunderstand him. Of comse, those who arc to vote for this bill tlo not expect that the snlJjcct of pn,ying- tho 

debts of this country, as it was promi ed they should. be paid, is 

going to be put forever out of view by the passage of this measme which has not anything to do with it. I suppose the Senator means something more; that is, be means that those people like himself who are in favor of having more promises to pay before we redeem those 

that we have alrea-dy put out, ru·e not to regard this as a finality. So 

be it, 1\fr. President. That question ought to be in order at all times 

until it is :finally settlecl. But I can do him tho justice and the com- mittee the justice to say that I do not think this particular report 

touches that question either way. It has been fonnd that Congress 

could not harmonize its views in res11ect to the other question, and. 

that it can, as is supposed, on this p1·ecise one of banking alone. 

The Senator ha said that as this is a bill only for roclistribution, 

it is an act of tardy justice to States that were shorn-that was his 

language-of their just proportion of banking facilities. What were the shears that <;li ppecl that wool¥ Wa-s not there freedom in In eli ana when tho a-ct of 1864 was passed? What prevente{l the people of 

Indiana from having their share Y Were they excluded by military . power 7 \Vere they excluded by any illegal action of the Secretary 

of the Treasury, or by any undue baste on tbe part of anybody r 

Not at all. They wore not shorn, 1\fr. Pre ident. They had offorecl 

to thorn an opportunity to engage in the business of ban king by furnishing capital to assist in carrying on thewa.r. Tlteydi<l notfurni:sh 

the capital to a sist in carrying ou the war in that. way because they 

did not choose to do so. They did everything they thonght patriotism required to assist in carrying on the war a.ncl they did it nobly 

and bravely aud well; but it did not appear to them that it was for 

tile interest of capital in the State of Indiana to engage in that. par-. ticular business. It was otherwise occupie(l, more profit-ably to them. 

Therefore I must respectfully dissent from the judgment of the Sen-
5184 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

a.tor from Indiana tha.t the people of his State or of any other State were shorn of any part of this circulation. A.s I 1i ve in a wool-growing 

State, according to our notioilS of shearing it is taking a fleece off an animal that already has it; and therefore I do not think the Senator 

is right in the imputation, beca.nse it amounts to that, of robbery, 

shearing, that there have been circulations denied to .the people of his 

State a.nd the West by the people of the Ea tor anywhere else. It is 

incorrect. Perhaps it was only a flourish of speech, anu de igned on] y 

to say that the people of the West did not obtain the amount of banking facilities which they were then entitleu to anu might have had 

had they chosen, a.nd which they a.re no,v, a it is upposetl, ready to 

take. If that is what the enator means, very well; out if he mean the people of Indiana. or of any other State t.o believe that the people 

of the Ea.stern States have been shearing their brothers in the West 

of either circulation or right , then I beg the Senator from Indiana 

to believe that I totally disagree with him; that the law and the history of these transactions is the other way. That, to be sure, does 

n t touch the question much of what we an~ willing to uo and what · o ght to be clone now. I only refer to it to r epel what might be implied from the phr::u~e which the Senator n:om Indi::ma cho e to adopt 

in describing what it appeared to him had been the state of affairs. 

Mr. Presiuent, the qnestion recurs, not whether the West hall now be entitled to take its proportion of banking circulation if it has the 

capital that it chooses to employ in it, because everybody a~rees to 

that, not that they have an innate right to do now what they aeclined 

to do then, but o far as my constituents ~Lre concerned, out of good 

will and good feeling, we are ready to give np the full proportion 

that our friends in the West may want to make the thiug even now, 

although we are far from seeing it as the Sew"Ltor eems to uo, that we committed any wrong on our friends in Iuiliana or elsewhere in 

taking banking circulation at the time anu in the way we did. But 

that has gone by. The question to which I auverted was, and upon 

which ololy as it respects this sulJject I vote against this conference 

report is, that it violates the fundamentaJ. priuciple upon which tho 

nationalllanking act ot 18()4 was fonnde -the fnnuamental banking principle I mean-which was to furnish wha,t is called a sound 

system of banking to the people of this country. 

The Senator from Indiana says that we get rid on this question of 

there erves of the banks, of a cast-iron reservation or rule which had no elasticity, and therefore had no value to accommodate itself to the 

circumstances and the pre sures of occasion as it shoulU arise. Is t.he 

Seuator right about that f I he right in saying that this money so held in ret>erve could not be paid out f The Senator is not right; he 

is w1·ong. It could not be paid out upon loailS, but it cvulU be paid 

out either to meet uemanus for redemption of circulation, or, what i more to the purpo e so long a the credit of the Government is good, 

to meet uemands by daily depositors, so that tbe mechunic who in a panic wishes to uraw his funds from a bank where he ha depositeJ. 

them for safe-keeping might be able to go to that bank with some probability that the law had directed the bank to keep itself in such a condition that it could meet the demand he was to make upon it. 

Now, Mr. President, in order that there ma.y lJe no misunderstanding about this uoject, I ask the Secretary to read the first part of the 

thirty-Jirst section of the national-banking act. - The Chief Clerk read a follows : 

SEC. 31. And be itjurtheY enacted, That every association in the cities hereinafter 

named shall at all times have on hand, in laWful money of t.he United Smtes, an amount equal to at least 25 per cent. of the aggregate amount of its not.es in circulation and its deposits; and every other as ociation shall at all times have on hand, 

in lawful money of th United States, an amount equal to at least 15 p r cent. of tho 

aggregat-e amount of i notes in circulation, and ofi lleposits. And whenever the 

lawful money of any association iu any of the cities herllinafter named shallbo below tho amount of 25 per cent. of its circulation and deposits, and whenever the 

la.wful money of any other association shall be below 15 per cent of it>~ circulation 

and deposits, such association shall not increase its liabilities by making any now loans or discounts otherwise than by dh:!counting or pmchasing bills of ox:change payable at sight, nor make any dividend of its profits, until the required proJlortion 

between the a~gregate amount of its ontstauding notes of circulation and deposits 

and its L'l.wful money of tho United Sta.tes shall be restored. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senator from Indi11>na will see and tbe Senate 

will see that the very object, the literal object of this provision in the 

bank act of 1 6-t, which then met the approval of everyllody as lleing one of the cardinal securities of thi banking system, was that this 

percentage of reserve bould be held availalJle for the purposes of 

meeting demamls upon the deposit in the hank and upon it~:~ circulation, anu that the bank was not forbiduen to pay it out for these 

purpo es. It was only forlJiduen to make loans anu discounts when 

the amount of its lawfnl money should have gone tlown to that minimum, and was required to continue to pay it out to depositors aud 

to people ho1diug its bills until the last dollar of it should be gone ; 

all(l yet the Senator says that thi i a ca t-iron regulation that really · locks up that amount of money ancl keeps it there so that the community cannot have benefit from it! I am amazed at the statement 

of the Senator. I am sure he must have forgotten how carefully the 

thirty-first ·ection of this act of 1 64 proviued for a reserve of this 

money to meet the demands made from clay to day upon it lly its 

depositors ancl bill-holders when a pressure in the state of dairs of the 

country should require the people who had deposited money to get their money out in order that it might be paid upon their debts. 

Mr. MORTON. ·will-the Senator allow me a word 7 

:ur. EDMUNDS. With pleasme. 

Mr . .MORTON. The section quoted by the Senator exactly carried 

out the idea as I expressed it. If the reserve on the circulation il; 

impaired by drafts upon it for redemption, it must be maue good. If 

the reserve on deposits is impaired, that is to be made good; but ns 

the re erve on circulation has never been intpaired, and is not likely 

to be impaired by drafts upon it for redemption, therefore it has been 

in contemplation of law a permanent reserve. That is what it is now. It carries out my idea, I think, precisely. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I am very sorry that the Senator does not nnuer- stantl this section yet. I beg him to be kind enough to take the 

statute and to run his eye over it. He will then see that the statute 

does not make a reserve for circulation and another reserve for depo -its; 

it is one single reserve. I wish to have the Senator hear me, because 

I know if I can convince him, then I shall have convinced all, :mel 

that when I conquer Cresar I shall have captured Rome. Therefore, I hope I shall be excllSed for asking the Senator to give me the 

honor of his attention for a ingle moment in reply to his own que - tion anu his own observation. 

Now, I beg the Senator to look at the statute and he will see that 

there is not one reserve for circulation and another for deposits. There 

is one single reserve, a totality, an entire sum of 15 per cent., made up 

of two elements. Fifteen per cent. of the circulation, supposing that 

to be $100,000, and 15 per cent. of the deposits, &upposing them to be 

100,000, is a reserve of 30,000. Th~sumof money-not15 percent. 

to answer circulation and 15 per cen . to answer deposits, but that 

total sum of money equal to 15 per cent. both of circulation and deposits, is to lJe held against all loans and ubject to the demand of the 

depo itors or to the demand of the bill-holders, as the case may lle. 

Now suppose, as the Senator says, the bill-holder does not come at 

all--

Mr. MORTON. If the Senator will allow me-- Mr. EDMUNDS. My friend will pardon me until I answer this 

question first. What then 7 Then there are $30,000 in bank wbbh 

the bank is authorized and directeu to hold to answer deposit , anu the bank would be bound to pay out every dollar of the $30,000 on the 

demand of it-s depo itors, and could not loan a cent of it whenever the 

time came when the depositors came and demanded the money; aud 

if there was no demand from the bill-holder, so much the better for 

the depositor. 

Now I will hear the Senator from Indiana. 

1\lr. MORTON. I was going to suggest that the Senator's rule 

holds out the same idea. It requires under the law a reserve in the 

Treasury of 15 per cent. for circulation, and as long as the bank 

circulation is outstanding the bank is required under the law to keep 

that amount of reserve on circulation, and if it is found to be impaired it is to be made good under the section which my friend read. 

Now, what difference does it make T 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Let me ask the Senator a question, and then he can tell me the difference, or t.ell the Senate. Suppose a. bank has 

30,000 of reserve and $100,000 of deposits. There is no demand by 

the bill-holder at all. A panic occms. The depo itors run iu and 

draw their money from hour to hour until the bank has got down ~o 

15,000. Is it lawful for the directors and the president of the bauk 

to say to the depositors "We cannot pay yon any more ; this other 

$15,000 we have got left is for the bill-holder 7" 

Mr. MORTON. No, sir; it is not la,wfnl, because they are bound to 

pay all their debts, and have no right to repudiate as to any part of 

them. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. So they are; and therefore if it is not lawful for 

them to hold on to that $15,000, it is their duty to pay it out. If they 

do pay it out the depositor ~ets it and applies it to his debt. That 

is precisely as I understand 1t in the East-! do not know how it is 

in tbe We~:~t-what a b~ is instituted for, for the purpose of paying back the money to the depositors when they call for it. 

1\fr . .MORTON. Let me ask my friend, is the liability of the bank 

confined to the extent of the reserve, so that when the reserve is 

exhausted it need not pay any longer! 

1\lr. EDMUNDS. Not at all, 

Mr. MORTON. That answers the whole question. 

Mr. ED~IUNDS. It may answer it to the comprehension of the 

Senator; that is his affair; but whether it will answer it to the com- prehension of honest and intelligent men is another question. The 

bank is bound to pay everybody; no one disputes that. The S uator 

mistakes the means for the end. We are on the question of meaus, 

and the question is whether we shall authorize a bank to spreau all 

its money by loans, or whether we shall require the bank to kc.ep 

some portion of it to meet those people who have loanetl money to it 

and not to accommodate those people who wish to borrow money from 

it. Can the Senator see the difierenc.e between those two ca f I a snme that he can. If he can, then I take it we have the case rrecisely where I put it to him before, that this statute is intendet to 

preserve the public who are the depositors, so that they may have ·orne 

hope to that extent in a time of pressure and panic of going to tile 

bank and getting the little funds they had deposited; ancl the tatute 

provided for both classes of the creditors of the bank, the bill-holders, 

and the depositors. The bonds deposited, s the Senator lla aid, 

ordinarily furnish good security for-the bill-holder and ho d ~es not go 

for his money upon his bill. What then 7 Then there is jn t so much more money left on deposit in the bank which it is not anthorizetl to 

loan; that the depositor has, if the bank is honest and pays it to 

him, to draw against to keep up his own credit. 
1874. ·CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5185 

That being the state of the case, this bill as reported by the con- ference committee turns around and sn.ys : We have been proceeding 

upon a false principle of banking all the time; when we have re- quired that a bank shall hold itself strong, as we call it, by law tQ 

meet any run upon it, we have made a mistake; we will diminish by 

one-half, or by two-thirds, or by nine-tenths, as the amount of deposits may make it, the security that the depositor had before for 

the return of his money; we will authorize the bank to loan everything that is left with it, capital, deposits, and all down to 15 p er cent., and that is all the eum of money th;tt we will require the bank 

to keep to meet the demands upon it in the time of a run. Where is vour depositor t He has not got any security by the bonds left in the 

Treasury. ·when he goes for his money the bank tells him" Congress 

authorized us to loan all the money yon left with us except 15 per 

cent., and it is gone." The bill-holder turns around and says, "I 

have got my security; I am all right;" but the depositor, instead of havin~, as the law now gives him, this chance at 15 per cent. of the 

capital as well as of the deposits of the bank, is by this bill shorn (to 

borrow the expression of the Senator from Indiana and rightly apply 

it) of one-half of the security t.hat the existing law has provided for 

him, in order that the bank may push out its loans and encourage 

enterprise and speculation, as it is called, until it has got nothing to 

meet its deposits but its bills receivable; and let me ask Senators 

what bills receivable are goocl for in a moment of panic Y Of what 

value were the bills receivable of the banks on the 23d of September 

last, if that was the clay, and for a month afterward Y 

Mr. SHERMAN. They were of as much value as the reserves on circulation, because they were deposited in New York and could not 

be drawn upon. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senator is a little mistaken there, although 

he does not answer the question. He says they were of as much value as the reserves. Does the Senator mean to say that the deposits in 

the banks of New York were not more secure than the general loans 

of the bankst 

Mr. SHERMAN. I kuow that the banks in Cincinnati whose deposits were in New York could.not draw their deposits until they did 

draw from their bills-receivable at home enough to mn.i.utain themselves, and did actually resume payment of all their depositors before New York paid a single draft. 

Mr. MORTON. And it was so all over the West. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Well, I know that in Burlington the banks were able to draw their deposits from the city banks and went on with 

their business. There is the difference between the two places. 

There is no criticism to be made upon that; I do not speak of it for that . purpose. I only say that in a general way-undoubtedly there are exceptions-the deposits of the country banks in the city banks during the panic were a more available resource to meet the demands of 

depo itors than were the bills receivable of the banks scattered all over the country. Neither of them was any too good ·it must be admitted; and I heartily concur in that part of this report which provides that the cotmtry banks shall not keep their reserves in the 

city banks. I was never in favor of their doing that. If this confer- ence committee had reported that provision and had then left the reserve of 15 per cent. on the total capital and deposits, I should have 

Raid that they had made an improvement upon that conservative 

hand which legislation must have upon banking corpors.tions and a ociations if they mean to protect the people, and would havegiven us a better banking system than we have now. . But, instead of that, what the committee have 9.athered in one hand they have scattered like sand from the other. They have given 

away, in my judgment, thn.t wholesome security for the poor people 

and depositors of this land, the majority of whom deposit small sums of money in country banks, taking them all together-they have given 

away the wholesome and conservative security designed for and indispensable to their benefit, in order thn.t there might be loaned out 

for purposes of enterprise and speculation every dollar that a bank 

had excepting this 15 per cent. of deposits. There is the objection; 

and I prophesy, although I do not seek for fame on the ground of prophetic voice, that adopting this, as no doubt you will, and standing 

to it as perhaps you will, you will find when the next panic comes, 

and it certainly will come as we all know, that you have destroyed one of the chief securities thn.t the creditors of the banks of this coun- try had; and you will then I think regret that you have aided by 

this degree in inflating enterprise and speculation at the expense of 

enabling depositors to draw from their banks on demand the sums of 

money which they have entrusted to them. 

That is what I fear. It may be that I am wrong. When I see the 

honorfLble Senators from Ohio and from Indiana shake their heads, so much fuller of the wisdom that comes from coinandfrom currency 

combined, I feel that there is great doubt about what I say; but 

when I look at the little human experience that I have had and the 

little human observation that I have had and the litt.le that I know 

of the history of the principles of banking, I cannot help entertaining humbly for myself the opinion that by just t.he degree that 

yon allow banking corporations to withdraw from their vaults the 

money which depositors have placed there, by that same degree you 

injure the security of depositors, and so by the same degroo you injure 

the community of which they are a part . .Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I have heard with no little sur325 

prise, and more regret, the remarks submitted by the Senators from 

Vermont. We have been fighting here for nearly six months, two con- tending parties-on the one side the inflationists, on the other side those who were opposed to inflation. Among those most steadily opposed 

to inflation were the two Senators from Vermont. They have told us from. the first, they have said to the South and the West "There is no necessity for infln.tion; there is no necessity to ~nlarge banking facilities; we can give you all the banking facilities you want by a rediAtribution of the currency, ancl we are ready at any moment to do it;" 

and now when for the first time we have a bill which can pass and 

become a law, which does redistribute the currency, and does offer to 

the South and the West their fair proportion of it, the Senators from 

Vermont are found oppo ing that bill. It is true they say they are not opposed to the redistribution feature of it, but how easy it is to 

find som~thing to which to take exception, and if there is a.n exception to be taken to every little feature that may be in this bill in or- der to destroy it, do those Senators believe that entire confidence will 

be placed by the country in their statement that they are in favor of or are willing to submit to this redistribution of the currencyf We 

know that they are in earnest in what they say, bnt how will it be 

regarded all over the country but that it was a hollow promise, a hope held out to the ear but never intended to be fulfilled f • 

Now, pray, what are the objections to this billY Certainly there are serious objections to it in my mind; it is not such a bill as I·would 

have. But what, pray, are the features in it that are so seriously objected to by the Senator from Vermont nearest me, [Mr. EDMUNDS,] 

and who has taken nearly an hour to develop them here to the Senate 7 Why, that thiR bill proposes to abolish what is called the reserve upon circulation, and that, says the Senator from Vermont, will 

lessen the amount of the reserve for the security of depositors; and 

he seems to be prodigiously alarmed lest depositors in national banks 

shall lose their deposits. When did the national banks get so shaky f 

When, in the opinion of the Senator from Vermont, were they so weak-kneed that if you abolish this reserve, which was intended as a reserve upon circulation-for it is precisely so in the charter- their 

depositors will not be safe f Is the Senator prepared to advertise the 

people of the United States that the national-banking institutions of 

this country are so frail as that, so fragile as that 7 

Why, sir, in regard to this thing of a reserve to meet deposits, I 

tell you there are no banks in this country .that can stand a run of 

their depositors if all the banks arQ run upon at the same time. In 

the nature of things they cannot do it, reserve or no reserve. Mr. EDMUNDS. May I ask the Senator a question 7 

!t!r. THURMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ED~fUNDS. I ask him whether they cannot stand it better 

just in proportion to the amount of money they have in their vaults Y 

Mr. THURMAN. Your reserve will be exhausted in twenty-four 

hours. It does not help them a bit. 

Mr. ED~fUNDS. If yon had double the amount it would last fortyeight hours, would it not f 

Mr. THURMAN. But you do not require a reserve, and nobody 

talks about a reserve equal to the amon~t of the depo its. Look at 

t.he amount of the deposits of your national banks. They are about · 800,000,000, more than twice the amount of the national-bank notes, 

morA tha.n the whole paper cu...'Tency of the country; and that is simply the amount of the deposits of the national banks. Now add to 

that the deposits in other banks, private banks, savings-banks,_ and 

all the various institutions that receive deposits, and see whether they can stand a run by their depositors. Thev never did and never will 

in the world. What did they do last fall f We know very well that 

they suspended. The system of certified checks we know was pra{}-

tical suspension. 

The idea. that it is necessary to keep this reserve of 15 per cent. more in order to secure tho deposito11S has no foundation whatever. I 

believe there are now more deposits in private banks and savings irJ- stitutions than there are in the national banks. Where is the security 

for them, pray f The multitude of private ba.nks in the country that 

receive deposits and ha.ve hundreds of millions of deposits, where is 

the security for them f And yet they fail just ·about as seldom as national banks fail; they are found to be just about as good. 

This whole system of re erve for the protection of circulation or the protection of depositors in national banks is a delusion unless it 

is a reserve of coin to compel the payment in specie of the notes of 

such institutions. There is some senae in such a reserve as tha.t. When you compel your banks to pay their notes in specie on presentation there is some sense in requiring them to have always on hand a certain quantity of coin with which to make redemption. But so far as this question of redeeming their notes is concerned, the reserve for which is abolished by this bill, in my judgment there never was any necessity whatsoever for that reserve and there is no harm done 

by its abolition, except (and I think that is going to be very trifling 

indeed) the little inflation that may take place by that abolition- a very trifling matter i.JI.deed, less I think than the Senator from Indiana 

has stated to be the result of his calculations. 

But I do not wish to argue this matter further. Now I say to my 

honorable friends from New England, there are a few of us from the 

West who have stood in the same ranks with you and stood there at more peril of condemnation than you have encountered, by far, for 

yon encountered none, and we have been fortified by your promise 
5186 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JuNE 19, 

that there should be this redistribution of the currency. Now I say 

to you that if upon one pretext or another you destroy the fulfillment 

of that promise, then we shall have some right to complain. 

:Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to ask the Senator from Ohio what 

he means by " one pretext or another !" 

Mr. THURMAN. I know this: There never was a. bill drawn on the face of this earth, not even by the Senator from Vermont himself, 

in which he could not find some fault. I utterly despair of there ever being a bill to which the Senator from Vermont would not find some objection, where he would feel hurt if I were to call it a pretext. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Well, Mr. President, I am not much wiser than I was before, which is saying a good deal after I hear the Senator from 

Ohio. The Senator seems to have warmed himself up to the notion 

that he has hitherto been in a false position, -:tnd that the best way 

to get out of it now is to accuse somebody in New England, and particularly me, of having a "pretext." I honor the judgment of the 

Senator. The best reason I have heard for going for t.his report is 

that one humble Senator from Vermont is guilty of making a "pretext." All hail to that wisdom of western statesmanship which con- quers a reluctant Senate to go for a thing which stands before us in 

violation of all parliamentary law on the ground that one Senator 

ha been starting a "pretext!" If that is not h~roism for you, I do 

not know what is. 

The Senator calls it a "pretext!" What pretext have I put forward' I asked the Secretary to read the thirty-first section of the 

act of 1 64, which said a certain definite thing should be done. Was 

that the "pretext¥" I suppose hot~ What then f I then said that we ought to stand upon the principles of that section. Is that what 

the Senator, with the wealth of learning that characterizes him, un- derstands to be a "pretext V" I think not. 

Mr. President, my honorable friend from Ohio in his present en- thusiasm I think has a little forgotten himself, if he will pardon me for saying so, and that after all, passing the witticism, and it was not I must confess an extraordinary one, that he perpetrated at my 

expense, that nothing can be found that I do not find fault withpa ing that, I think the Senator on reflection will conclude that 

there has not been much "pretext" about this particular business, 

at least east of the Allerrhanie . We have had, to be sure, a good 

deal of pretty broad ta'l.k from some Senators on the subject of 

the value of specie payments, on tho subject of the value of coin as the only just basis of commercial enterprise and of corresponding equivalents. I donotmean to say that there has been any "pretext" in that sort of thing. I do not mean to say that anybody 

standing on the top of the Rocky Mountains has been looking for 

votes on the shores of the Atlantic by occupying such altitudes. I 

do not think anybody bas ; but I think that those Senators who ask 

for themselves some respect for the fidelity of their own opinions 

ought to be willing to be generous enough to allow other people 

occasionally in this land of liberty also to have an opinion of their 

own, without being terrified into the notion that it.is a "pretext." 

If I am wrong in demanding so much, then of course I ask the Senate · and the Senator to excuse me. But, :Mr. President, I wish to state to the Senator from Ohio that I 

have voted, as be has, steadily to give our western friends the opportunity which they never have exercised when there bas been circulation at the Comptroller's office that they could have, and when there 

is yet, to take it, to ~ive them more, all that they ask. I intend to 

vote so again upon the bill that is on your Ca.lendar for that purpose. 

But when a committee of this body, with whom is put in charge a question that has not anything to do with redistribution, but has to 

do with what I consider to be the safety of every community in this 

country in respect to compelling banks to keep themselves strong, I 

shall take the liberty, pretext or no pretext, to give the reasons why 

I think the committee in this instance in departing from the settled 

wisdom of the act of 1004, and declaring, as the Senator does in principle, that there is no use in any reserves at all, are wrong; ancl if 

there is any treason in that, to quote an old saying, the Senator from 

Ohio or anybody else is at liberty to make the most of it. 

I should be glad· to ask the Senator from Ohio, who talks about 

"pretexts," how this provision for redistribution got into this bill at 

allY Was it in the House bill that came to this body 'f 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. Yes ; but not for actual redisti.ibntion. 

Mr. ED:MUNDS. The Senator from Ohio is speaking a little too soon. Was it in the bill of the House that came to this body and 

went to that conference committee f No, sir; i1; was not. Was it in 

-!;be amendments of the Senate that were sent to the House and disagreed to and that went to this committee Y No, sir; it was not. 

Where, then, did this committee, in whom wereposed the duty of harmonizing those two bills, pick up this stray sheep from the flock, I 

should be glad to know, and who gave them the authority, I should 

be glad to be informed to brin<T any such subject as this before us in 

this conference report Y Why, ~Ir. Pre ident, in the good old times of 

Andrew Jackson, to which my friend from Ohio [Mr. THURMAN] is so apt to refer, in that golden age of the Republic, a conference com- mittee that should have undertaken to bring in a proposition of this 

kincl upon a bill that was pending between the two Houses would 

have been ruled out on a point of order. 

1\ir. FERRY, of :Michigan. Will the Senator allow me to e:s::plain f 

Mr. EDMUNDS. No, sir; not at this present moment. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. It is on the point the Senator is stating a-s to the action of the committee. 

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. The Senator will be kind enough to wait a moment, 

and then I will hear him. 

It would have been ruled out on a point of order, not on what the 

Senator might call a technical point of order, and the good sense of 

the Senate would have said that it wa due to the independence of 

both Houses and to the rights of every Senator and member that the 

conferees of the two Houses should be confined to the subject that was at issue between them. 

But, Mr. President, I make no point of order about this conference 

report. That is not the point at all. I took the liberty to express, when I was up before, my approval of that part of it. I am perfectly 

willing, as I have said a thousand times, that this redistribution shoultl 

be made; but I do not want to be told, because on another part of 

this proposition, totally distinct from the question of redistribution, 

but touching the rights and duties of banking everywhere, I do not 

happen to agree With these new charmers, who keep serpents, and 

who overthrow the principles of the act of 1864, that I am guilty 

of resorting to "pretexts" in order to evade this provision for redi - tribution. The Senator has only to move to take up his distribution 

bill, or the distribution bill-it is not his in particular-and he will get 

my vote for it, and he may put it at thirty, forty, fifty, or sixty, or whatever number of untold millions it is that the Senator from Indiana 

speaks of as being due to the West, and he shall have my vote for it. 

Mr. STEVENSON. May I a k the Senator from Vermont a question Y 

Mr. EDMUNDS.· Yes, sir. 

Mr. STEVElTSON. If a. portion of the matter which wa-s referred 

to us repealed the redistribution act, would not that give u jurisdiction to suggest not only the redistribution, but an increase of it 

1\fr. EDMUNDS. I doubt it very much. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I can only say to the Senator, whose experience 

is very much larger than mine, that I think the usage of the Senate 

and of Congressjustify"the committee in t.he exercise of that power. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Now, 1\Ir. Pre ident, allow me to say, because I 

want to yield to my friend from Michigan in a minute--

1\fr. FERRY, of Michigan. I wanted to call the attention of the 

Senator to the very point to which my colleague on the conference 

committee ha-s called his attention-that that question was before 

the committee, submitted through the clause of the bill of the Senate 

repealing the act for the withdrawal of the 25,000,000, and therefor 

it was within the boundary of the controversy the adjustment of 

which was referred to us. Mr. EDMUNDS. Let us seo. Will the Senator be kind enough to 

read any part of the Honse bill or of the Senate amendments which 

contains any such provision Y I know it wa brought iu by another· committee of conference, but I do not remember it in the bill. 

1\Ir. FERRY, of Michigan. I have not the bill before me, but I 

state the fact, and· the Senator's ingenuity is so fruitful that I pre- sume he will recall to his attention the fact that it was in the bill 

since it was part of the project to withdraw circulation from New 

England in case we adjusted the currency question. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Well, Mr. President, I seem to be guilty again. 

First, this conference report ought to be adopted becau e I am guilty 

of "pretexts;" second, because I am "fruitful of ingenuities." ow, 

if there is any other good reason for this, I think the Senate 011ght 

to be told it, because all Senators may not be willing to vote on those 

two grounds alone. 

Mr. WRIGHT. I was going to suggest to the Senator from Vermont that a reference to the bill as pa sed by the Senate and as it 

went to the House will show distinctly that there was a provision in 

it repealing that clause. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Let us see what there is in it now. Iha.cltheimpression that the committee would be able to refer me to the clause 

at once in one or the other of these bills, as they have had them under 

incubation for some time. 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. You will find it in the third section, I think. 

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. I shall find it in the third section, shall If 

1\Ir. SHERMAN. In the section for free banking. I think that is it. 

:Mr. ED~IUNDS. We will see. The chairman of the Committee on Finance says that this repealing clause is in the third section. I will 

read the third section : 

SEC. 3. That sections 31 and 32 of the saill act be amt>nde<l by requirin~ that each 

of the said a-ssociations shall, within ninety days after the pas age of this act, and 

thereafter, keep its lawful-mont>y reserves within ita own vaults, at the ;place where its operations of discount and deposit are carried on. And all the proVISions of the 

said sections requiring or permitting any of the said associations to keep any por- tion of its lawful money reserves elsewhere than in its own vaults, or requin.nrr or perm.itting the redemption of its circulating notes elsewhere than at its own coun- ter, except as provided for in this act, are hereby repealed. 

The Senator must be mistaken. That is not it. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I tried to correct you and tell you it was in the 

section in regard to free banking. 

1\Ir; EDMUNDS. I did not hear you. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I thought I w0-uld wait until you got through. 

It is in the section which requires free banking. If the Senator will 

give the bill to me I will show it. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Do you mean of the Senate amendments f 

Mr. SHEID1AN. Yes, sir. The section whicbrepea.ls certain :wts, 

among the rest that one .. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5187 

Mr.· EDl\IUNDS. Yes; here is the clause undoubtedly to which the 

Senator from Ohio intended to refer. If I read the wrong section, it was tlrrough his misinformation, because he certainly said the third 

section unless I am very much mistaken. Here in the fourth section 

is a clause which providesThat section 22 of the said act, and the several amendments thereto, so far as they r estrict the amount of notes for circulation under said acts, be, and the same are · hereby, repealed- -

And then it goes on to repeal other sectionsancl the proviso in the third section of said act limitin~ the circulation of banks authorized to issue notes redeemable in gold coin to 1, 000,000; and section six-

! think that must be itof said act, relating to the redistribution of twenty-five millions of circulating 

notes, be, and the same n.re hereby, repealedThat is what the Senator refers tothat every association hereafter organized shall be subject to, and be governed by, the rules, restrictions, and limitations, and possess the righta, privileges, and fran. 

chises, &c. 

Instead of bringing in a bill on these two bills which should regulate steps toward the resumption of specie payments, which should 

regulate free banking, and which, providing free banking as a substi- . tute for other points in the controversy that we have had, contained a clause repealing the sixth section of the act referred to, and instead 

of actinTI:fuon the repeal of tha.t clause and leaving it repealed, or else dec · · g to repeal it, the Senator says that to drop every other 

part of the bill and bring in a fresh bill for the redistribution of the 

currency is within the power of the conferees. I beg the Senator 

to remember that he ought to be a little cautions before he maintains 

that, because it may injure us hereafter. 

But I do not want to spend any time, as I said, upon the subject of 

whether the conferees have exceeded their authority or not. I stated 

when I had the honor to acldress the Senate before, that I was in 

f avor, without regard to whether this proposition was regularly before us or not, of doing whatever our western and southern friends 

desired to have done in the way of getting banking facilities if they 

want them. I ought to have said, as has been said by my colleague, 

and as I stated the other day, that there ought to be a limit of time 

t o this business somewhere, that this ought not to be held up for a hundred years, because, as Senators will see, taking all the banks in 

the Ea. t, in order to be ready promptly and fully to answer this de- mand they must keep a reserve on hand in order to meet it as they 

honestly should, and just so far as they keep this reserve on hand for 

that purpose, just so far they contract their loans and discounts, and 

just so far, therefore, from the point of view taken by my friends in 

the West and South, they are doing an injury to the community, be- cause when the money is once loaned by the banks, it does not stop on State lines; it does not stop on rivers or geographical boundaries; 

it goes where it is wanted, to pay for things that people desire to 

buy. That is all the criticism I have to make upon it. 

I do not think, therefore, it is just in anybody to say that because 

I am not in favor of this conferenoe report, destroying as I believe it 

does by one-half the fundamental principle found by every country 

and stated by every writer on banking to be for the security of the 

people who intrust their money to· banks, I am using that as a" pret ext" to avoid a redistribution of the currency. I ·say that whoever 

asserts that asserts that which is unjust to me and which is beneath 

the dignity of the cause that the honorable Senators represent. They 

should find some better reason than that for overcoming the suggestion I make that I believe in the law of 1864 regulating all banks, 

and which has no reference to distribution, '!hat there should be security to _the bill-holder and to the depositor also to the full extent 

r equired by that act. :Mr. HOWE. I do not rise to say a word in favor of the adoption 

of this report or-against the adoption of it. I will try to be content 

with whatever the Senate does in that behalf; that is to say, if I am discontented with whatever the Senate does, I will try to bear that 

discontent as well as I can. I want to say one word touching this question of distribution. I am one of those who never blamed the East for any share that it baa 

obtained in this privilege of banking. That is a statutory privilege. 

I think it ought to be common to all. The wisdom of the law; however, decreed that it should be limited. It was distributed, and our friends in the Eastern States secured a share in that privilege quite 

disproportioned to their population or to their business. I never held 

them blamable for doing so. The States of the West and South se- pured a share of that privilege quite disproportioned to their business 

a.nd to their population, much le s than their population and business 

entitled them to. I never blamed the Ea.st for that result; but this 

morning I understand the Senator from Vermont to urge that the West 

and the South are to blame for not having secured more of this statutory privilege than they did. · 1\Ir. EDMUNDS. I have not said anything of the kind. 

Mr. HOWE.. I understood the Senator-if I misunderstood him I 

shall be corrected-to recite here as an evidence of the patriotism of 

the East that they came forward when war was abroad in the land 

and took up this banking circulation by way of aiding the Government; and that theW est, not being as patriotic, held back and refused 

to take the "Share of· that circulation.which the statute entitled them 

to. 

:Mr. EDMUNDS. I occupied no such position and stated no such 

proposition, the Senator will par~on me for saying, as he will .find by 

looking at the RECORD to-morrow, which I never change or revise. 

Mr. HOWE. Then I did mistmderstand the Senator. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. You did. I had no such idea. 

Mr. HOWE. I am glad I misunderstood the Senator. Still I will 

take this opportuility.to say, since I have gotten up under the influ- ence .of a mistake, that I do not think the State I represent is at all 

to blame for not having secured its full share of that statutory privilege. The State of Wisconsin had a banking system at the time you 

adopted the national banking system. By the constitution of that 

State she is prohibited from contracting a debt exceeding $100,000, except in time of war. When the war came on the State found it 

necessary to contract a larger debt than $100,000, did contract a debt 

to the amount of 2,000,000 in aid of the Government, in aid of the 

war, to enable the State to fit out and send 1ts troops to the field. 

The banks of Wisconsin came forward and invested their capital in 

those bonds and put those bonds behind their circulation. When 

you proposed to tax the circulation of State banks 10 per cent., or tax them out of existence, you see that blow fell heavily upon the 

banks of the State of Wisconsin. I am inclined to think the banks 

of Wisconsin were just as patriotic when they purchased the bonds 

of that State issued in aid of the war as the banks of Vermont or of Massachusetts were when they purchased the bonds of the United 

States issued in aid of the same war. Mr. SCOTT. Will the Senator from Wisconsin permit me to make a statement bearing on this matter-! do not wish to get into this 

controversy-which I think ought to settle the question about the 

relative patriotism of the East and Westin taking the national-bank 

capital! I made an examination at one time on that subject, and 

prior to the battle of Gettysburgh, in July, 1863, which I believe is 

conceded as having turned the tide of events, there were not over thirty applications for national-bank charters from all quarters of 

the United States . . Mr. HOWE. Then, after all, it was not so very patriotic a movement. 

Mr. SCOTT. I state the fact. 

Mr. HOWE. I am sorry the Senator did not withhold that fact. 

I should have been glad to believe that the patriotism of all our friends in the East could be measured by the readiness, the cheerful 

alacrity with which they ca.me forward and subscribed to these bonds 

and went into the banking business. I should not have protested 

against the justice of that standard at all, but I should protest against a.pplying the same standard to the State of Wisconsin for the reasons 

that I was going on to state. 

When the United States said to the several States "You must retire 

all your State bank issues," it involved the necessity on the part of 

Wisconsin bankers not merely of investing their capital in national 

bonds, but it involved tho necessity of their withdrawing the same amount of capital which was then invested in the bonds of the State. 

That was a very heavy load for the banks to carry. Those bonds 

could not readily be converted when all the capital of the country was jumping to get national bonds. I remember to have stood here 

in the Senate to have resisted the passage of that law imposing the 

tax. I thought I was 'discharging but my simple duty to the bank- ers of Wisconsin in doing so ; but w bile I stood here resistin~ it those 

bankers came forward voluntarily, having first investedtherr capital 

in the bonds of the State to aid the war, and in convention they agreed 

to retire those bonds and to invest their capital in the bonds of the 

nation. So I shall to-day and always protest that the reluctance on the part of tho bankers of Wisconsin to come forward and invest in 

the national banking system is not to be construed here or anywhere as an evidence of any want of patriotism on their part. 

Having said this much, I will take my seat, remarking once more that I care but very little what the Senate shall do with this pending measure. It has been remarked before that it does not meet any·one of the necessities which hitherto we have all insisted were the neces- sities that confronted the country. Those two necessities were, first, 

that as the privilege of banking was a monopoly the monopoly ought 

to be uprooted, and second. that you have a large amount of national 

paper afloat, on its face payable on demand, but not paid in fact. 

The two labors we assigned to ourselves when we came here were, 

first, destroying this monopoly, and second, redeeming the national 

faith as it is borne on the face of these legal-tenders. Your bill ig- nores both these points. It proposes what you call a redistribution 

of the bank circulation. On that point I have simply to say what I 

have said repeatedly. If our friends of the East are perfectly willing 

to allow a redistribution, I accept it; I do not want to snatch at it; 

and if yon give it tons I do not want you to make faces at ns. If 

you think it is an act of justice due to the West and the South, then 

do justice and do it like men. If you think justice does not require 

it, then hold on to it. If you got no more than belongs to you, abide 

by that position. I cannot bear to_ accept this redistribution and then 

be taunted for doing so. I suppose if I was very hungry and entirely 

destitute of money, and my friend from Vermont was to offer me a 

quarter of a dollar to buy a lunch with, I should take it ; but if I saw when he handed me the quarter of a dollar that he was going to spit 

at me as a beggar if I did take it, I would go hungry a little longer. 

So I think I will not snatch at this proffer that is now made to us. I 

will wait and see what the Senate will do about it. If they give it 

. -
5188 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

to us, I think I had better take care that the record shall show it was their act and not mine. _ Mr. SCHURZ. I do not intend to prolong this debate, Mr. President; in fact I have neither the strength nor the disposition to do so; 

but I merely want to state in a few words my position with regard to 

this bill. - I expect this bill will pa-ss Congress, and what I might say would 

have little effect either way. There are some provisions in it which I 

approve of; among others the redistribution of the currency-this 

for two reasons : In the first place it will, in part at least, remove that 

injustice which hat~ grown up under the law as it now stands; and in 

the second place it will dispel some of th~ delusions which seem to 

exist here and there, especially in the Western and the Southern States. 

I should therefore glacUy vote for that feature of the bill and desire 

it to become the law of the land. In fact I have voted several times 

for it.- There are, however, other things in this bill, and especially one which will scarcely permit me to support this particular measure as a whole. The one I refer to particularly is this: This bill legalizes 

the issue of part of what was called the $44,000,000 reserve. I for 

my part with other Senators have always considered that so-called reserve no reserve at all, but upon conscientious investigtaion of that 

subject I have believed, and do now firmly _believe, that the 44,000,000 were retired, canceled, destroyed, wiped out as part of the legal-tender circulation, and could not legally be put out again. 

I hold also, a.a a logical coMequence, that any ex post facto enactment legalizing the reissue of any part of those retired United Statesi 

notes would amount virtually to a fresh issue of irredeemable paper 

currency as a legal tender in time of peace, which, looking at it from 

the point of view of constitutional power or of sound policy, I cannot 

give my assent to, directly or indirectly. 

Conscientiously holding this view, I cannot vote· for any mea.sure pretending to legalize the reissue of any part of the so-called fortyfour million reserve instead of providing for the retirement of the 

amount illegally issued. 

Having paired off with the Senator from illinois now absent1 [Mr. LOGAN,] before he went West, upon all questions concerning finance, 

npon the assumption that he and I would naturally be on opposite 

sides, I shall have to abstain from voting. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I shall vote against this biUbecause .it is direct expansion. There is some difference of opinion in relation 

to the propriety of keeping reserves when banks are upon a specie 

basis. I think myself that then it might be well left to the discretion 

of every banker. But here we have a national banking system which 

provides that banks in the country shall have 15 per cent. of reserve and in the cities 25 per cent. That ha.s hitherto kept out of circulation about 100,000,000. Now it is proposed to obliterate that provision of law so far a-s the circulation is concerned; and that will, 

of course, throw that amount into circulation in addition to the sum that heretofore has been authorized. It is solely on the ground of 

this and the other provision in relation to legalizing what has been 

miscalled the reserve of 44,000,000 that I shall vote against the bill. 

Mr. MORTON. J\Ir. President, at almost every step in this discussion for four or five months, to every reque&t that has been made in 

behalf of free banking or for some extension of the national-bank cur- rency, to give banking facilities to States that had not their full 

share or had not what they required, we have been met by the most 

liberal propo itions to take twenty-five, forty, or fifty millions from 

the Eastern States-to take what we wanted. The e offers have been 

made in a most. magnificent manner from time to time. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. May I ask the Senator a. question' 

Mr. MORTO~. Allow me to go on. I always knew that so far as my State was concerned upon t.he ba-sis of the distribution of the act 

of 1865, a. redistribution would give Indiana. but very littlei..... it would 

not meet the demand and the necessity that exist there. .Hut other 

States were in a different situation. I confess that when these gen- erous offers were made from time to time I had a secret apprehension that if it should ever come to pass that a. vote must be taken 

upon anything like fair distribution or a.pproachinz a. fair distribution of this currency, the Senators who made these liberal and gener- ous offers would :find some unfortunate thing in the bill, that had 

crept in either by accident or in the night when nobody was looking 

after it, which would prevent them from voting for it. Now I shall a-wait this vote with a great deal of interest to see whether my apprehension on that subject will be realized. My friend from Vermont 

said that he would vote for the other bill, the bill not before the Senate, but I should be afraid-- :Mr. EDMUNDS. I did vote for it. 

J\Ir. MORTON. My friend voted for it under circumstances when 

he did not expect it to pass, and when there was no prospect of its 

passu.ge; but now for the first time there is a prospect for the passage 

of a redistribution bill, and my friend finds good and suffici!3nt rea- sons why he will vote against it, and I have always been afraid that 

he would. · But he says another thing. He does not admit that the }aw.requires a. redistli.bution or that the States of the West a,ud South failed to 

get what they were entitled to under the law. He does 'Il.Ot admit 

that; b~t he intimates that he j.s willing we should have this as a matter of favor, as a. matter of compa.sswn, a gratuity, li~e a toy 

thrown to a querulous or unhappy child. I do not believe any of the 

Western or Southern States want it upon that ground. 

Now, what ·is the simple fact about itt When the first act was passed authorizing 300,000,000 of national-bank notes and providing 

for their apportionment among the several States upon a certain 

basis, the law contemplated that whatever was apportioned to any 

particular State should stand to the credit of that State until that 

State was prepared to take it, whether it wa.a this year, or next year, or :five years hence. But what waa the result! .A.fter the law was passed and the system went into full operation, States in the West 

and South, owing to their condition resulting from, the war and from 

other causes, were not prepared to step in and to take all of it the 

very first year, and a certain Treasury officer gave a construction to 

the law that enabled the Eastern States to come in and take what 

these Western States could not take of their own share the first year, 

and they did so. That_is the whole of it. I do not blame the people 

of New England for it. I have said so repeatedly. .A. Treasury offi- cer said they were entitled to it. I do not blame men of capital for 

coming in and taking it when they thought they could make their 

capital profitable by that kind of investment. But that did not 

change the right or change the law. .And now we are told at this 

late hour, after ten years have passed by, when there is a prospect of 

the passage of a law making an imperfect distribution, now 25,000,000 

short of what the Comptroller of the Currency reported is necessary 

to make a full distribution, we are told, ~'You are not entitled to it 

under the law, but we are willing you should have it, provided the 

other parts of the bill were ri~ht, which unfortunately they are not." 

Mr. President, the Senator trom Vermont [Mr. MoRRILL] said that 

this is a measure of expansion. Well, to the extent that it liberates 

legaL-tender notes which are now required by law to be held in the 

vaults of the banks; it is expansion, and $30,000,000 of old notes set 

free are a great deal better than 18,000,000 of new notes put into 

circulation. I have never been in favor of making new notes and 

putting them into circulation beyond the limit the law has fixed. - The Senator says further that it is expansion in this, that it requires 

the $382,000,000 of legal-tenders to be kept in circulation, and that some millions out of the $26,000,000 issued last fall have already been 

retired by the Secretary of the Treasury. If that is true, the coun- try does not know it; but the threat of that retirement is hanging over the country, and perhaps more than almost any other cause depresses 

the busineas of this country. If some millions have already been 

retired, this law will require them to go out, because the plain intentionof this lawisthatthe legal-tender circulation shall be $382,000,000, 

of course savin<T the necessary and ordinary currency balance in the ,Treasury, and the currency balance is always counted in the monthly 

statement a.s a part of the circulation, and justly so. I am criticised for saying that this is not a :finality. Do those Senators who have talked so long and so earnestly about specie payments 

contend that it is a finality' .A. law that will deny to the State of Indiana the right to establish banks of her own and will not give to her 

national banks- a great and growing'State-can hardly be called a :finality. I can say that here and now. We shall hear a great deal 

said about specie payments, the repeal of the legal-tender a-ct, the 

hoarding of gold m the Treasury, and the selling of our bonds in 

Europe to get gold. I have no doubt all that is to be talked of before the people, as well as free banking and such enlargement of the 

bank system as will enable us to meet the developments of the nation. This, Mr. President, is all I have to say. 

Mr. ED~IUNDS. :Mr. President, the Senator from Indiana says that 

the originallaiV provided that this distl:ibution of banking facilities 

among the several States according to population and wealth, shoult.l 

be a perpetual provision which was to be set apart for the credit_and 

benefit of the particular State and was never to be withdrawn from 

it. I should be very glad if the Senator from Indiana had pointetl 

out to us any snch provision in the act relating to the national \)anks. 

No doubt it is my ignorance, but I should be glad to have him or any 

member of the Committee on Finance or of this conference committee point out, what has never been a serted before, thatthelawprovided 

this apportionment among the several States should be an apportionment made once forever, and that none of the currency should be 

issued except to the States who by that apportionment were to take 

it, whether they wanted it or not. There is not any provision of that 

kind in the statute that I ever heard of. If there is, I should be glad 

to hear some gentleman read it. J\Ir. SHERMAN. The law of 1863 contained that provision; the 

.law of 1864 did not, which I see the Senator has before him. The act 

of March 3, 1865, restored the old provision. If the Senator has the 

act o.f March 3, 1865, he will :find that the old provision for distribution w~ restored; and that wa-s long before there was any considerable issue ln any of the States. _ Mr. EDMUNDS. Does the ~enator mean to say that the law pro- -vided that this currency should only be issued to the States in accordance with their wealth and population, and therefore that the issue 

to the States in excess oftheir proportions respectiYely on the basis of 

wealth and population was an illegal issue 7 ~Ir. SHERMAN. I would prefer to show the Senator the statute. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The Senator prefers not to answer the question; that is the short of it. . -Mr. SHERMAN. I will furnish the statute to the Senator. 

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. The Senator has been at the head of the :finances of 

this nation legislatively for a good while, and I should be glad to have 

the country know from him whether when we _were trying to carry on 
... 

1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5189 

tho war and pay off the debt that accrued out of it, and when some States· did not or would not or could not come forward and get their 

bonds ami take circulation, and thus furnish means to the Government to pay oft' it.s obligations-, the law was invaded by the Secretary 

of the Treasury allowing other States that could to establish banks. 

Was that a violation of the statute f I want to know if the Secretary of the Treasury committed an act of such immense importance as that whon the law set apart, as the Senator from Indiana says it 

did, to each one of the States a given quota which was to stand to its 

credit until the crack of doom, and leave the soldiers of this Republic to go ID1pa,id for the want of currency to pay them in, to be got 

by the purchase of bonds and then their deposits h~re f I should be 

glad to know it; I should be glad to have it understood now, because 

it certainly ought to make a great difference in the judgment of just men all over the country in respect to this question of redistribution, 

whether you are merely correcting a gross irregularity and illegality 

of conduct on the part of the Secretary of the Treasury, and of robbery on the part of th(\ States that took more than population and 

wealth pointed out for them ·to take in the first instance, or whether 

when a State which wn.s offered that proportion declined to take it, 

it was lawful for a citizen of some ot.her State to come forwM'<l and 

say : "I will take your bonds and give you the money to pay your 

soldiers." It is worth knowin~; and as it has been boldly stated on this floor, I dem:.md the authonty of the statutes under which such an ~ ertion is made. I should be glad ·to have the people be able to 

read such a statute, and have it appear in our debates. I never heard 

the Senator from Ohio say that that was the law. I never heard any 

person sa.y it was the law up.til now, for the first time, it has fallen 

from the lips of the Senator from Indiana, who did not do us the 

honor to make any reference to the statute on which he relied for any 

such proposition. He said that that was the true const.ruction of the 

law. I should be glad to see where the clause is in that law which 

bears that construction. 

The Senator from Ohio says the acto£ 1864didnot contain it, but the 

act of 1865 did. I fail to see in the act of 1865 anything that contuins 

it. Perhaps the Senator can reason it out. I will not take his time on that subject. He can do it himself. I beg leave to say that it is rather 

late in the day to put a construction of that character upon these statutes of the United States-rather late in the day, ten years afterwardto discover that this currency was put out illegally by the Secretary 

of the Treasury, and that you got your money to pay your soldiers with 

through a robbery committed by the Secretary of the Treasury and 

the people of the Ea.stern States upon the Western States in their 

purchasing of bonds and depositing them for circulation to do this 

thing with. It may be so, but it is a thing that has not been discovered until now. Mr. SHERMAN. I do not want to be C:.rawn into this debate, but 

the Senator appeale(l to me as a member of the Committee on Finance, and I feel bound to read him the law. I find it in Brightley's 

Digest: 

And that el50,000,000 of the entire amount of circulating notes authorized to be 

i sued shall be apportioned to ·associations in the States, in the District of Colum. bia., and in the Territories according to representative population, and the remain· 

der shall be apportioned by the secretary of the Treasury among a.~sociations formed in the sever-al States, in the District of Columbia, and in the Territories, 

having due re~ard to the existing banking capital, resources, and business of such 

State , Districli, and TeiTitories. 

The reference is to the act of March 3, 18G5, 18 Statutes, page 49 . Mr. EDMUNDS. I suppose nobody doubts that that is ·the way 

the act of 1865 reads, and nobody doubts how the act of 1863 and 

the act of 1864 read. That is not the question. The question which 

the Senator from Onio does not answer is what in his judgment at 

the time, and what in his judgment now, and what in the judgment 

of everybody for the last ten years the honest interpretation of that 

statut-e is; and to that the Seuator gives no answer. I could have 

read the statute my elf; I had it in my hand. I said that I failed 

to discover in this statute authority for the assertion of the Senator 

from Indiana; that was all; and I asked Senators to point out bow it 

meant that. That they do not do. But I am taking too much time 

about that ; it is only incidental .. I only wish the Senator from Indiana, who impugns the honor and 

fidelity of Senators from the Eastern States on this subject of redistribution, to remember, as others willremember if be does not, thattime 

after time in this Senate the Senators from the Eastern States at this 

session have voted solid in favor Of·a distinct proposition to be enacted 

into the form of a law for this redistribution unembarrassed by the 

poisonous sauce that this conference committee has surrounded it with 

and poured over it, but in a way that nobody could object to it upon 

the merits a_nd nobody did; and the honorable Senator from Indiana 

and all forces that he could muster, enough to beat it, voted directly 

against it. 

Mr. President., in that point of view I shall leave it to the future 

to determine whether it is the Senator from Indiana or whether it is 

I who history will pronounce to have acted the part of a demagogue 

upon this question. I do not say that either of us has. I only say 

in reply to the imputations of the honorable Senator that it may be 

determined hereafter when his acts and not mine, for he is great and I am bumble, are drawn into public consideration-it will be for the 

future to determine bow large the good faith and bow large the direct fidelity- to a straight and squa.re object has been which has 

brought him to vote constantly against this proposition when it was 

not coupled with other things which have nothinO' to do with if!, and 

which we believe to be injurious to the public weYfare, has been con- sistent with the interest that be now seems to feel, and undoubtedly 

does feel, in favor of this redistribution which is to carry prosperity 

and greenba.cks to the pockets of those who do not possess either. 

Mr. SARGENT. In 2ccordance with the general understanding of 

the Senate, the hour of four o'clock having arrived, I now move that 

the Senate proceed to the consideration of executive business. 

Mr. WRIGHT. Will not the Senator from California let us take 

the vote on this question~ 

Mr. SARGENT. If the debate stops and we can take the vote I 

will not object; otherwise I do object. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is the motion withdrawn f 

Mr. SARGENT. Until the roll is called, 

Tlie PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The question is on agreeing to the report of the conference committee. 

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 43, nays 

19 ; as follows : · 

YEAS-Messrs. Alcorn, .Allison, Bogy, Boreman, Carpent-er, Chandler, Clayton, 

Conover, Cooper, Cra~, Davis, Dennis, Ferry of Michigan, Gilbert, Goldlihwait.e, Gordon, Harvey, Httchcock, Inaalls, Johnston, Kelly, McCreery, Menimon, 

Mitchell, Morton, Norwood, Oglesby, Patterson, Pease, Pratt, Ramsey, Ransom, 

Robertson, Scott, Sherman, Sprague, Steveuson, Thurman, Tipton, Wadleigh; West, 

Windom, ancl \Vright--43. 

NAYS-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Boutwell, Buckingham, Edmunds, Fenton, 

Flanagan, Frelinghysen, Hager, Hamilton of Mar~d, Hamilton of Texa , Ham. 

Wai~~5~'ill o Maine, Morrill of Vermont, gent, Stewart, Stockton, and 

ABSENT-Messrs. :Brownlow, Cameron, Conkling, Dorsey, Ferry of Connecti· 

cut, Howe, Lewis, Logan, Saulsbury, Sohm·z, and Spencer-11. 

So the report was concurred in. 

!ESSAGE FRO:\I THE llOUSE. 

A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. McPHERSON, 

its Clerk, announced that the House had pas2ed the following bills 

and joint resolution; in which it requested the concurrence of the 

Senate: 

A bill (H. R. No. 2109) for the protection of the United States ens- tom-house in the city of Louisville, Kentucky; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3000) for the relief of Samuel W. Davidson, Henry 

Smith, J obn Gray Bynum, and others ; and 

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 108) in regard to the lower pier at 

Chester, Pennsylvania. . 

HOUSE BILL REFERRED. 

On motion of Mr. STEVENSON, the bill (H. R. No. 2109) forth~ 

protection of the United States custom-house in the city of Lo"Q.isville, Kentucky, was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Appropriations. · 

RIVER AND HARBOR BILL. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpo're. The bill (H. R. No. 3168) making 

appropriations for the repair, preservation, and completion of certain 

public works on rivers and harbors, and for other purposes, is before 

the Senate as in Committee of the Whole. 

Mr. SARGENT. I now move that the Senate proceed to the con- sideration of executive business. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I hope the Senate will not go into executive 

session until they finish the river and harbor bill. 

The PRESIDENT pro ten-,pore. The Chair asks indulgence of the 

Senate before putting the question on the motion for an executive ses ion to dispose of business on his table. 

Mr. SARGEN'.r. I have no objection to that. 

EXECUTIVE CO~f:UNICATIOXS. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore laid before the Senate a message from 

the President of the United Stat.es, communicating the official report 

of the delegates selected to represent the United States at the eighth 

session of the international statistical con~ess, held at Saint Peter - burg in August, 1872, by invitation of the Emperor of Russia; which was ordered to lie on the t:1ble ancl be printed. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore laid before the Senate a letter from the 

Secretary of the Interior, transmitting, in obedience to law, the report 

of the surveyor-general of New Mexico on land grant to Francisco 

Montes Vigil, reported as private land claim No. 91, for the town of 

Alameda tract, in Bernalillo County, New Mexico; which was re- ferred to the Committee on Private Land Claims. 

STATISTICAL ATLAS OF NL"ii'TH CENSUS. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpo1·e laid before the Senate the following 

concurrent resolution of the Honse of Representatives : 

Resolved by the HotLBe of lhpresmtatives, (tlz.e Senate concurring,) That the three 

thousand copies of the Statistical Atlas of the United States based on the results 

of the ninth census, now being compiled by Francis A. Walker, the publication of 

which is provided for by act of March 3, 1873, shall be distributed for public and 

official nse aa follows: twenty.:five copies for the President; six hundred copies for 

the Senate; twelve hundred copies for the House of Representatives; two hundrerl 

and twenty.:five copies for the State Dep!l>rtment, and for transmission to United 

States legations and the more important consulates abroad, and to the legations of 

foreign governments in Washington; seventy.five copies for the Treasury Depart;. 

ment; forty copies for the War Department; twenty.five copies for the N:~.vy 

Department; twenty.five copies for the Department of J ustice; twenty.five copies for the Department of Agriculture; six hundred copies for t.he Department of the 

Interior for its use and distribution among the executives of the several States, and 

libraries of literary_ institutions; sixty copies for the Library of Congress, Stahl 

libraries, and one hundred copies for Francia A, Walker. 
.. 

5190 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

Mr. ANTHONY. I move that the Senate agree to that resolution. 

It merely provides for the distribution of a book already ordered to 

be printed. The resolution was considered and agreed to. 

RAYMO~"'D'S MThTING REPORT. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore laid before the Senate the following 

concurrent resolution of the House of Representatives; which was 

referred to the Committee on Printing: 

Resolved by the House of Representatives, (the Senate concurring,) That of the report of R. W. Raymond on mining statistics, with the accompanying en~ravings, there ue printed three thousand copies for the House, two thousand for the Senate, one thousand for the Treasury Department, and one thousand for the Commissioner. 

EDUCATIQ,_ REPO~T. 

The PRESIDENT pro tentp01·e laid before the Senate the following 

concurrent resolution of the House of Representatives; which was 

r efelTed to the Committee on Printing: 

Resolved, (the Senate cmwttrring,) That there be printed twenty thousand copies of 

the report of the Commissioner of Education, five thousand of which number shall 

be for the use of the Go=issioner, fiye thousand for the use of the Senate, and ten thousand for the use of the Honse of Representatives. 

TRA...."'fSPORTATION REPORT. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e laid before the Senate the following 

conculTent resolution of the House of Representatives : 

Resolved by tlle House of Representatives, (the Sena-te concurring,) That there be 

printed six thousand copies of the report, with appendix and evidence of tho Solect 

Committee of the Senate on Transportation totheSe.c'l.-board, fourthonsandof which 

sltall be for the use of the House of Representatives, and two thousand for the use 

of the Senate. 

Mr. ANTHONY. We pa ed are olntion this morning for a different distribution of that document anu the printing of a less number 

of the evidence. 

Mr. SARGENT. I think it had better go to the Committee on Plintin~ . The resolution was referred to the Committee on Printing. 

AMENDMENTS TO AN APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont, from the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, submitted an amendment intended to be proposed 

to the bill (H. R. No. 3600) making appropriations for sundry civil 

expenses of the Government for the :fiscal year endirig June 30, 1875; 

which was refelTed to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered 

to be printed. Mr. COOPER, l\Ir. BOUTWELL, l\Ir. STEVENSON, and l\Ir. 

MITCHELL submitted amendments intended to be propo ed by 

them to the bill (H. R.·No. 3600) making appropriations for sundry 

civil expenses of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 

1 75; which were referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and 

ordered to be printed. l\Ir. CLAYTON, from the Committee on Military Affairs, submitted an amendment intended to be proposed to the bill (H. R. No. 3600) 

making appropriations for sundry civil expenses of the Government 

for the :fiscal year ending June 30, 1875; which was refetTed to the 

Committee on Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

LOIDSVILLE CUSTOM-HOUSE. 

l\Ir. STEVENSON. If the Senator from California will yield the 

floor to me for a moment, I wish to report from the Committee on 

Appropriations a bill and ask that it be put on its passage. 

Mr. SARGENT. I believe that will lead to no discussion. · 

l\Ir. STEVENSON. None. 

The Committee on Appropriations, to whom was refetTed the bill 

(H. R. No. 2109) for the protection of the United States custom-house · in the city of Louisville, Kentucky, have directed me to report it 

without amendment, and I ask for its present consideration. 

The bill was read. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The same prin.ciple that I acted upon this mornin~ compels me to ask that that bill shall go over. If we are ever gomg to do anything with the Calendar, we must go to it. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I ask that the bill be put on its passage. It is 

absolutely es ential that this should be done. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. What difference does it make whether it is done 

to-day or to-morrow! 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The bill will be placed on the .Calendar. ' · HOUSE BILLS REFERRED. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3762) to amend the act entitled "An act for the 

erection of a public building for the use of the United States in Atlanta, Georgia," was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds. The joint resolution (H. R. No.8) in regard to the lower pier at 

Chester, Pennsylvania, wa,g read twice by its title, and referred to the 

Committee on Commerce. 

The joint resolution (H. R. No. 112) directing the Public Printer to 

keep an account of all expenditures for printing, mailing, and binding the CONGRESSIO~AL RECORD~ &c., was read twice by its title, and 

referred to the Committee on Printing. Th~ bill (H. R. No. 3761) directing the Secretary of the Treasury 

to report upon the necessity of a public building at the city of Auburn, 

N.ew York, wa.s read twice by its title. 

' 

Mr. FENTON. I a k that the Senate a-ot on that bill now. It is 

merely a bill directing an inquiry, and is in a very few lines. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. The same honor that I owe to other gentlemen 

compels me to stand by the Calendar. · :Mr. FENTON. Then let the bill be referred. 

The bill was referred to the Committee on Public Buildings anu 

Grounds. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3477) for the relief of Nelson Tiffany was rea<l 

twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3000) for the relief of Samuel W. Davidson, 

Henry Smith, John Gray Bynum, and others, was read twice by its 

title, and referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

The joint resolution (H. R. No. 113) making an appropriation for 

the purchase and restoration to the family of the Marquis de La Fayette of the watch presented to him by General Washington was rea<l 

twice by its title. 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. I ask that that be put on its passage. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I object. 

The joint resolution was referred to the Committee on Foreign 

Relations. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3757) for the transfer of twenty condemned 

bronze cannon for the erection of a statue to the late MaJor-General 

George Gordon l\Iea-de, was read twice by its title. 

1Y1r. SCOTT. I am requested by the gentlemen havinrr in charge 

the erection of that statue to ask the immediate consider~tion of the 

bill. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I object. 

The bill was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

The bill (H. R. No. 2032) to amend the a-ct entitled "An act to promote the development of the mining resources of the United Stat e ," 

approved May 10, 1872, wa-s read twice by its title, and referred to 

the Committee' on Mines and Mining. 

The bill (H. R. No. 2700) amendatory of the act entitled "An act for 

the relief of the heirs and next of kin of James B . .Armstrong, deceased," approved March 3, 1873, was read twice by its title, and 

referred to the Committee on Claims. 

The bill (H. R. No. 3132) authorizing the Secretary of War to deliver 

certain condemned ordnance to the municipal authorities of Lexington, Massachusetts, for monumental purposes, was read twice by its 

title. 

l\fr. WASHBURN. I hope that will not be required to be referrerl. 

It is merely allowing certain pieces of ordnance to be granted to 

Lexin(J'ton as has been done in other case-s. Mr. EDMUNDS. Such bills have always been referred. I object 

for the same reason that I have done so before. I do not see why bills 

should be passed now when others reported long ago are waiting. 

The bill was referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

'fhe following bills were severally read twice by their titles and 

referred as indicated below : The bill (H. R. No. 3182) forthereliefof the heirs of JamesBarnett 

deceased-to the Committee on l\lilitary Affairs. ' 

The bill (H. R. No. 3749) to provide for the reapportionment of the 

Legislative Assembly of Idaho Territory-to the Committee on Territories. · The bill (H. R. No. 3756) to appoint a commission to establish the 

rights of the former slaves in the Choctaw and Chickasaw countries 

and their descendants, and to submit the same to Congress-to th~ Committee on Indian .A.fl"airs. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION. 

l\Ir. SARGENT. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration of executive business. I need not remind Senators that this 

motion is in accordance with an underStanding arrived at a few days 

a-go. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The question is on the motion of 

the Senator from California. 

The motion was agreed to. there being o~ a di_vision-ayes 34, noes 7; and the Senate proceeded to the conmderation of executive 

business. After one hour and forty m.fnutes spent in executive session 

the Senate (at six o'clock p. m) took a recess till half past seven o'clock p.m. 

EVENING SESSIO:X. 

The Senate reassembled at half past seven o'clock p.m. in executive 

session. .After two hours and twenty-three minutes spent in the con- sideration of executive business the doors were reopened. 

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

.A. message from the House of Representatives, by :Mr. McPHERSO~, 

its Clerk, announced that the House had concurred in some and nonconcurred in other amendments of the Senate to the bill (H. R. No. 

3094) making appropriations for the service of the Post-Office Department for the year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes; and 

agreed to other amendments of the Senate with amendments, asked a conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses thereon, and 

had appointed l\fr. J. N. TYNER of Indiana, Mr. J. B. PACKER of Pennsylvania, a.nd Mr. S. S.l\fARsH.A.LL of illinois, managers at the same on its pa.rt. · ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

The message also announced that the Speaker of the House had 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5191 

signed the following enrolled bills; and they were thereupon signed 

l>y the President pro ternpo1·e: · . A bill (S. No.llO) for the relief of the East Tennessee University; 

A bill (S. No. 954) prohibiting the publication of the revised statutes of the United States in the newspapers at the expense of the 

United States; 

A bill (H. R. No. 2701) to 1·elieve William G. Jones, of AliLbama, of 

political disabilities; . A bill (H. R. No. 3309) granting to the Nevada County NarrowGauge Railroad Company a right of way through the public lands for a raihoad; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3740) to create the Bozeman land district in the 

Territory of Montana; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3417) to relieve Thoma-s Claiborne, of Tennessee.J 

of political disabilities imposed upon him by the fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States; . • . A bill (H. R. No. 3332) to ~the term for the election of Representatives in the Forty-fourth Congress from the State of :Mississippi; 

A bill (H. R. No. 3680) for -the government of the District of Columbia, and for other purposes; 

A 'till (H. R. No. 3748) directing the Secretary of the Treasmy to 

re_po-:t upon the necessity for a public building at Brooklyn, New 

York, and the cost of the same. . · 

SUNDRY CIVIL APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine, from the Committee on Appropriations, 

to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 3600) making appropriations 

for sundry civil expenses of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes, reported it with amendments. 

POST-OFFICE APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. PRATT I move to take up House bill No. 2190, being the bil 

amendatory oi the act granting pensions to the soldiers of the war of 

1812, &c. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I hope that bill will not be taken up. I hope 

the Senate will go on with the river and harbor bill and dispose of it. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. INGALLS in thechair.) The Senator from Indiana moves to postpone the pending and all prior orders, 

and proceed to the consideration of the bill indicated by him. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to hear that bill r ead. 

Mr. DAVIS. I hope the motion of the Senator from Indiana will 

not prevail, and for this reason : We had a vote this morning, and a recess was taken and a session called for to-night for the express purpose of considering the pension bill, the bill which I understand the 

Senator from Indiana now proposes to call up. 

Mr. PRATT. Yes, sir. 

l.fr. DAVIS. We came here this evening for that purpose. The 

subject was brought before the Senate this morning, and by a large 

vote, I believo by a majority of :fifteen, the Senate determined to come here to-night for the purpose of taking up that bill. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I have been striving ever since Monday morn- ing at twelve o'clock to get action on the river and harbor bill. We now have one day more of the session, and it is absolutely certain 

that the river and harbor bill must go to a conference committee, 

and unless it is taken up now and perfected and passed to-night, 

there is very grave doubt whether it will pass at all. If the river 

and harbor bill has any friends here I trust they will stand by it. I 

hope the motion of the Senator from Indiana will not prevail, but 

that the friends of the river and harbor bill will stand by it. If it 

has no friends, let it go. 

Mr. WEST. The House of Representatives having acted upon the 

amendments of the Senate to the post-office appropriation bill, con- curring in some and non-concurring in others, and agreeing to others, 

with amendments, and asked for a conference, I move that the Senate insist on its amendments and agree to the conference, and that 

the conferees on the part of the Senate be appointed by the Chair. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I should like to know what the state of the question is on the post-office appropriation bill before we lump it in that 

way. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The pending question is on the mo- tion of the Senator from Indiana to postpone the pending and all 

prior orders and proceed to the consideration of House bill No. 2190. 

Mr. WEST. I am aware of that; but I presume the Senate will 

entertain a motion to appoint a committee of conference at any time. 

It can be submitted to the Senate if it is necessary. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there objection to the motion made 

by the Senator from Louisiana f 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I want to hear the communication from the House 

of Representatives read, if it is not offensive to the Senator, to know 

what it is that we are to have a conference about. 

Mr. WEST. The Senator is very ingenious in finding offense. I do 

not find auy offense. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. TheChairwilllaybeforethe Senate a message from the House of Representatives in relation to ·the postoffice appropriation bill. 

The Chief Clerk read the action of the House of Representatives Mfu~~: ' 

L~ THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

June 19, 1874. 

Resolved, Tlmt the Honse concur in the amendments of the Senate 1;o tqe b~ll 

(H. R. No. 3094) making appropriations for the service of the Post-Office Depart. ment for the year ending June 30, 1875, and for other purposes, numbered as fol· 

lows: 1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, and- 11. . That the .E:onse non-concur in the following numbered amendments, namely, 2, 

5, 6, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. That the House concur in the following amendments of the Senate to said bill, 

with amendments, as follows: 

Eighth amendment.-After the word "publications" in line 6 of said amendment 

strike out the words " four cents " and insert " issued weekly and more frequently than once a week, one cent and five mills," and after the word " thereof" in line 7, 

insert " and on those issued less frequently than once a week, three cents for each 

pound or fraction thereof." 

Twelfth amendment.-In line 1, after "Postmaster-General" insert "when in his 

judgment it shall be necessary," in line 17, aft.er the word "do" insert "and shall 

thereafter without havjng taken such affidavit, deposit any newspapers in the mail 

for transmission," and in lines 21 and 22 between the words "any' and "person" 

and "any" and "matter," insert the word "such," and in line 24, after the word 

"done" insert "with the intent to avoid the prepayment of postage due thereon ; " 

after the word "any" in line 26 insert " such." and in lines 29 and 30, strike out the 

words "less than $100 nor" and in line 31 strike out the words "three years " and 

insert "one year." •· That the Honse ask a conference witl). the Senat-e on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on said bill. 

Ordered, That Mr. TYNER, Mr. PACKER, and Mr. MARBH.ALL, be the managers of 

the conference on the part of the House. 

Mr. ED:MUNDS. I should be glad to have the Senator in charge 

of this bill explain to us what are the open questions between the 

two Houses, in order that we may understand what it is we are to 

have a conference about. The Chair will remember that to-day we had some discussion on the matter as to whether the conferees on the currency bill acted within the line of their duty, and I think it 

quite desirable that we should know in this instance, not more than 

in any other, what it is we are submitting to a conference between 

the two Houses. The Senator from Louisiana can explab;l. it to us, if 

he can be heard, I have no doubt in a very short time. 

lli. WEST. The only point involving an appropriat~on in the bill 

from which the House disagrees with the Senate is a,n amount of $700. 

So with respect to money that is the only. di:ffemnce. The main open 

question with regard to general legislation is the disagreement of the 

House of Representatives to the amount :fixed by the Senate as postage upon newspapers, the House determining that one and one-half 

cents a pound shall be enough, but the Senate holding to the opinion 

that four cents a pound is proper. There are some minor matters in 

connection with the details of that difierence, but nothing more than 

that, I understand. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. What is the state of the question as respects 

transmitting the RECORD through the mails1 

Mr. THURMAN. That is in amendment numbered 17. That is 

non-concurred in. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is open. What is the state of the other 

postage question as to the transmission of public documents already 

printed Y 

Mr. THURMAN. That is in the same section and non-concurredin. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. What is the motion made by the 

Senator from Louisiana 'I 

Mr. WEST. Thn,t the Senate insist on its amendments non-con- curred in by the House, disagree to the amendments of the House to 

other amendments of the Senate, and agree to the conference asked 

by t.he House. 

The motion was agreed to ; and by unanimous consent the President pro tempore was authorized to appoint the committee of confer- ence on the part of the Senate; and Messrs. WEST, RAMSEY, and 

SHER?.l.A.N were appointed the conferees. 

A.ME1\"DMENT TO AN APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. CLAYTON. I desireMr. STEVENSON. I rise to a question of order. The pending 

question, as I understand, is on the motion of the Senator from Indi- ana to take up the pension bill. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. But by unanimous consent the mo- tion of the Senator from Louisiana was entertained. 

Mr. STEVENSON. Only that. Now comes the Senator from Arkansas with a motion. 

ltfr. CLAYTON. I only desire to submit an amendment to an appropriation bill. I desire to give notice of an a.mendment to be moved 

to the bill (H. R. No. 3600)making appropriations· for the sundry civil 

expenses of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30,1875, 

and for other purposes. 

The amendment was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, 

and ordered to be printed. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Tho PRESIDING OFFICER. The question recurs on the motion 

of tho Senator from I.ttdiana to lay aside the pending and all other 

prior orders and proceed to the consideration of House bill No. 2190. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. May I inquire what the pending busi- ness isf 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The river and harbor appropriation 

bill. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I believe that there seems to have been 

a pretty general understanding all alono- that the appropriation bills 

should take the precedence in the order of business, and we have 

arrived now at that late day of the session, almost in the last hours 

of the session, when if we do not observe that rule I am very sure we s}).all noi be in~ condition to adjourn on the 22d instant. 
5192 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~ JUNE 19, 

I have no right to know of cotirse what the proposition is which is 

to supersede this appropriation bill, but I should regret extremely 

that it shou~d be found necessary to displace an appropriation bill at 

this particular tiille, so late in the session, for any matter of Jegislartion whatever. Unless the House -of Representatives should change 

their position on the subject, we shall adjourn on the 22d inst.ant. 

We have no right to know that we shall not. If after we have passed 

the appropriation bills, it shall be found that the public necessity is so great M to require further delay, that may be very well, but cer- t.ainly we cannot afford for· any general legislation whatever to postpone the consideration of an appropriation bill at this time of theses· 

sion. To-morrow morning, or during the session of to-morrow, I shall 

ask the Senate to proceed to the consideration of the sundry civil 

appropriation bill, which is a large bill and will require a good deal 

of a,ttention. It seems to me that the Senate cannot afford to lay 

aside t.he bill which the Senator from Michigan has under his charge. 

Mr. 'CHANDLER. The Committee on Appropriations have already 

served notice on the eommittee on Commerce that they will·call up 

what is known as the omnibus bill to-morrow morning, and will an- tagonize it against the river and harbor bill, and I hope the Senate 

will to-ni~ht complete that bill. I ask the Senate to stand by the 

river and narbor bill. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I gave nQtice the day before yesterday that I 

should ask for a night session to-night for this purpose, and the Senator from Michigan has no right to ask us to consider the river and 

harbor bill to-night. He would have adjourned at six o'clock and 

his bill would have gone over until to-morrow. The day before yesterday I gave notice of a night session to-night for a particular purpose and I hope every friend of the pension bill will stay here and ~ive us a vote on it. Let us have a fair vote. If the majority of the 

Mnate is in favor of the river and harbor bill to-night I shall say amen. If they are in favor of the pension bill, it will not ta.ke us five 

minutes to pass it. 

Mr. PRATT. The bill now moved, as I had occasion to say to-night, 

has been pending in the Senate since the middle of :March last. The 

Senate will bear me witness that I have attempted time and again to 

bring thlli bill before the Senate for its consideration. I made an appeal yesterday and stated the grounds. When to-day the Senator 

from Kentucky moved that we take a recess from six o'clock until 

half past seven, my understanding was that that motion having followed a speech upon the importance of disposing of this bill, it was the understanding of the Senate that this night should be devoted to 

its consideration. I came up here for that purpose, and I do not think 

that the consideration of the bill will occupy any great length of 

time. There are but three propositions in it. It is a bill amendatory 

of the act of February 14, 1871, which gave pensions to a certain 

class of the soldiers of the war of 1812 against Great Britarin. That 

law limited the pensioners to those who had served sixty days. This 

bill which the House sends us admits all soldiers of the war of 1812. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Chair would suggest to the Senator that a discussion of the merits of the bill is not in order on the 

motion to take it up. _ Mr. PRATT. I. was not stating the merits of the bill but simply 

what the bill contained. However, if I am out of order, I will not 

pursue that line of argument any longer. ·All I wish to say is tha.t I 

think it is due to the persons who are beneficiaries of this bill that 

they should have a hearing at the present session. I think tha.t this 

bill has been set aside long enough. If it is crowded now into the 

last hours of the session whose fault is it 'f Certainly it is not mine. 

As the chairman of the Committee on Pensions I reported this bill more than a month ago, and took occasion then to explain its merits 

in a speech of half or three-quarters of an hour. Since that time I 

have repeatedly made an appeal to the Senate to take it up for con- sideration. I hope therefore that we shall have a vote, and a vote 

that will indicate who are the friends of this bill. 

Mr. SCOTT. I am not willing that the last remark .of the Senator 

from Indiana shall pass without a word of reply. Ho says he hopes 

that this vote will indicate who are the friends of this bill, who a.re willing to have it considered. Now, Mr. President, I suppose that no Senator here is unwilling that the merits of the bill shall be considered, 

and I rise to express my regret that the chairman of the Committee on Finance is not in his place, because I think that there is another 

very serious question in this bill, or in this motion, and it is this: 

We now have before us the appropriation bill for the purpose of keeping in repair the harbors of- the country, and of removing obstruotions from the navigable rivers of the count.ry ; in other words, will we lay aside at this period of the session a bill which is necessary to be 

passed in order that our harbo:r:s may be kept open so that we may re- ceive revenues enough to pay the pensione we are already liable to pay, 

andrecei ve revenues enough to carry on the other operations of ths Governmentt Will we lay aside this bill, and have our harborsfilled up for 

want of appropriations so that our commerce cannot be carried on Y 

That is just as important a question to be considered on this motion as who are the friends of this bill when we get it before us, and ·I 

hope that some attention will be paid to those appropriations which are necessary to enable the Government to go on and pay the pensions 

that others are now looking for, as well as those who are interest-.ed 

in this bill. 

I trust, sir, that we shall stand by the chairman of the Committee on Co~?rce at present, and enable him to get through the river and 

harbor bill so that these great public works necessary to 'keep the 

Government in operation shall not fail for want of appropriations. 

Mr. FLANAGAN. I for one am going to stand by ~he chairman of. 

the Committee on Pensions on this occasion, and he is found in his 

seat. Our distinguished friend,. the chairman of the Committee on Finance, is generally there; but he is absent to-night, when it ia very 

well known to the Senate that there is no Senator here but what 

understood from a vote that we had upon this subject that this question was to be taken up at half past seven this evening. 

Mr. FERRY, of MichiO"an. :J;;et rna remind the Senator from Texas 

that my colleaO'ue, the chairman of the Committee on Commerce, who 

is so modest, whose bill is now being criticised by the Senator who is on his feet, is in his seat and pressing the consideration of the river 

and harbor bill. • Mr. FLANAGAN. I am very well aware of that; and complimentary to him it is_ to say that he is always there, particularly when 

rivers and harbors are spoken of. There is no doubt about that. 

Every Senator is well aware of that fact. I will stand by him in due 

time. There is no danger, as expressed by my distinguished friend 

from Pennsylvania, on the subject of the appropriation bills. They 

will be passed beyond a doubt. It is very questionable, however, 

from the inelications that I see here, whether they will not cover up 

and smother out a proposition to do justice to a class of men that it ts 

very hard to vote against. There is not a Senator here who is not 

immediately representing the class that it is now proposed to benefit, 

and they are worthy. As to the millions of money that are spoken 

of that it will require to do them justice, I care not what the amount 

may be; the millions will be well appropriated, better than they will 

be in many instances in the river and harbor bill, or in any other 

great measure tha.t you cau speak of. · 

It is hard to "kick against the pricks;" it is hard to vote against 

the old soldiers. They have been the life of this country from its 

earliest to its latest period of history, and we must do them justice, 

and I have no hesitation in saying justice will be done them; and 

this is the proper time, now is the time to take up and act upon this 

bill, and I am confident it will be done. 

:Mr. :MORRILL, of Vermont. I suppose it is not unknown to all 

the Senate that the appropria-!-rions for the coming year are very likely 

to exceed the amount of our revenue. The bill proposed by the Senator from Indiana is likely to add to the burdens of the Treasury, as I have understood, some $15,000,000. 

:hfr. WEST. How is that! . :Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I think it is very much better that we should take up some measure that will add something to the re- sources of the Treasury rather than diminish them. I make an appeal in behalf of what is known as the little tariff bill, and if I <tan 

get votes enough for it we will take that up and consider it. to-night or immediately after the river ancl har_bor bill is disposed of. 

When we came here to-night I did not suppose that the Senate were committed to any measure. I thought that the Calendar was as much open as any other measure. I knew that the Senator from 

Kentucky [Mr. STEVE~So~] was anxious to have his pet measure -considered. I also knew that the chairman of the Committee on Commerce was determined to push his measure through ; and there were various other favorite measures that were likely to be ca.lled up, 

and jt would be left to the discretion of the Senate as to what they 

would actually do when they were assembled. 

Now, Mr. President, it does seem to me that it is the height of wisdom and statesmanship that we should seek to contribute something · to the Treasmy rather than to deplete it. I shall therefore move at the 

first moment that I can that we take up the little tariff bill and con- sider ~t to-night, for if it is not disposed of to-night I fear we shall 

not have any other opportunity to consider it. 

!fr. BOREl\IAN. :Mr. President, the Senator from Indiana seems to 

intimate that he will regard this vote as a test of the friends of the 

pension bill. I do not think it ought to be so regarded. Certainly 

in the case of some Senators here it must not be so regarcled. This 

evening we had under consideration the river and harbor bill. I 

think it is better to get through with one thing at a time and proceed 

with that bill until we finish it and then take up this bill, if it is not 

to be considered, as I hope it will be, dming this session. I hold, then, 

that the vote on this motion is not to be a test. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I hope it will be a test, and it is a test. No 

gentleman can escape the test. Gentlemen can vote il.S they please of 

course; but it is a test. This bill is not in antagonism with the river 

and ·harbor bill. The river and harbor bill gave way to a financial 

discussion to-day. When I asked for a session to-night it was with 

the distinct avowal and understanding that the soldiers' bill should 

have to-night. 

1tfr. EDMUNDS. There was no such understanding, let me tell 

the Senator. 

Mr. STEVENSON. I beg pardon of the Senatorfrom Vermont; he was not here; he did not hear wha.t I said. I did say that the only 

object in taking the recess was to have this bill considered, and then 

the chairman of the Committee on Commerce, that being so, did not 

propose, nor did any other Senator that I heard of propose to antagonize 

with this bill. I could not make the motion in a form which would 

certainly bring up the bill as of course. 1\Ir. EDMUNDS. I do not object to the Senator from Kentucky 

stating what his understanding was, but I was here and heard all 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5193 

that the Senator said, and I have no doubt toot his understanding was that he would push this bill through at all times if possible. Nobody misunderstood that. But when we were taking the vote 

several Senators around me said "we want a session for. to-night in 

order that we may finish these appropriation bills, and therefore we vote for the recess." The Senator therefore has no right to say that 

there was any understanding that this bill should be considered tonight. We get an understanding by having the Chair put to everybodythe inquiry whether thore is common consent that a particular bill 

shall be regarded as in order. The Senator from Kentucky perfectly 

well understands that. I hope that we shall not be pressed wit h the 

consideration that there was an understancling that this bill was to overslau~h the appropriation bills, when the understanding has been on this s1de of the House for a good while, which I snpposed bound us all, that appropriation bills, in the condition of the public business, when they were reached should haveprecedenceovereverything; 

and I say that for the benefit of the Senator from Indiana. 

Mr. STEVENSON. One word in reply to the Senator from Vermont. He says he heard what I said. Then he heard in Vermont 

what I said, because what I referred to as having been said by me was what I said on the day before yesterday. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. I beg the Senat or's pardon. I was referring to 

what he said to-day on the same subject. · Mr. STEVENSON. So I presumed. Thedaybeforeyesterdayirose 

in my place and said that by the consent of the Senate I would this 

morning move to appropriate this evening to the consideration of this 

specific bill. There wa.s no objection, that I heard, from any quarter. 

I rose this m~rning and made the motion. I do not mean to say that 

Senators are committed to -it-my friend from Vermont misunderstands me there-I only mean to say that I sought to antagonize with 

nobody, and that the understanding of the friends of this measure was that it would be considered to-ni$ht. I do not believe that we should 

have had a night session if it ha,u not been for the notice I gave and 

for the motion I made. That is my distinct understanding, and while 

I claim that no m a,n is bound and that every man is free in good faith 

to vote as he pleases, I still must maintain my .proposition thut but 

for this motion of mine we should not have been here to-night. No 

chairman of any appropriation committee said to me "you can move· that; but I shall, if necessary, move to take up my bill." 

:Mr. BUCKINGHML I appreciate the position of ·the Senator from 

Kentucky and his desire to have this bill passsed. I am am.."i.ous for 

it also; I am in favor of having the bill acted upon at the earliest 

moment even if there is but little money i1}. the public fieasury; but 

I must say that I thought all these measures which are sought to be 

brought before the Senate were to give way on account of the public 

necessity to the regular appropriation bills. It is with tha,t view that 

I feel obliged to stand by the chairman of the Committee on Commerce 

and vote against taking up the bm proposed by the Senator from 

Indiana, although I earnestly desire that the bill should be considered. 

Mr. PRATT. I wish to make a single remark in reply to what has 

fallen from the Senator from Vermont, [:l\Ir. EDMUNDS.] I did not 

intend in making this motion to antagonize the appropriation bill 

which was under consideration to-day. I made it upon what I con- sidered was the understanding of the Senate, after the adoption of 

the resolution on motion of the Senator from Kentucky, that when 

the Senate took a recess at six o'clock it would meet again at seven and a half o'clock. There was nothin(J' expressly said in 'that motion or resolution th~t the Senate would ~ake up for consideration this 

pension bill •Jlls evening; but I think it was generally understood 

that the appropriation bill would go over until to-morrow, and that 

this evening would be devoted exclusively to the consideration of 

this pension bill. It was with that understanding that I made the 

motion that I did a short time since, and now I wish to have a vote 

upon that motion. ·If it is voted down, well and good; I have done 

my duty. I consider it my duty as the chairman of the Committee on Pensi"ons to omit no opportunity of bringing this bill fairly before 

the Senate for its consideration. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Thequestionis on the motion of the 

Senator from Indiana to lay aside the pflnding order, which is the 

river and harbor bill, and all prior orders, and proceed to t]:1t} con- sideration of House bill No. 2190. 

Mr. CHANDLER and Mr. STEVENSON ca,Iled for the yeaa and 

nays ; and they were ordered. 

Mr. CHANDLER. It must be known to every Senator that displacing the river and harbor bill at this till).e is virtually abandon.:illg 

it; it loses its place. 

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 29, 

nays Z7 ; as follows: 

YEAS-Messrs. Alcorn, Eayard, Bogy, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Flanao-an, Goldthwaite, ~rdon, H:uni.lton of .M:ar:rlarid, Hamilton of Texas Hamlin, Johnston 

Kelly, Lewis, M:errimon, Norwood, Oglesby, Patterson, Pease, futt, Ransom, .Rob: ertson. Saulsbury, Sprague, Stevenson, Stockton, Thurman, and Tipton-29. NAYS-Messrs . .Allison, Anthony, Boutwell, Buckingham, Chandler Clayton Conover, Edmunds, Fenton, Ferry of Michigan, Frelinghuysen, Hitchcock, Howe' 

Ingalls, Jones, Mitchell, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Ramsey, Sargen~ Scott, Spencer, Wadleigh, Waahburn, West, Windom, and Wright-27. 

ABSENT-Messrs. Boreman, Brownlow, Cameron, Carpenter Conklincr Cra.!dn 

Dorsey, Ferry of Connecticut, Gilbert, Hager, Harvey, Logan, McCreerY,'Mor&m; Schurz, Sherman, and Stewart-17. 

So the motion of· Mr. PRATT was agreed to. 

'.rhe PRERIDING OFFICER. The Clerk will report the bill. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I now mo>e that the further consideration of 

the river and harbor bill be postponed until the first Monday in December. 

Mr. FLANAGAN and Mr. STEVENSON. I second that motion. 

Mr. ANTHONY. That motion is unnec~ssary. The bill is postponed 

of course after the vote just taken. 

The PRESIDll~G OFFICER. That bill having been laid aside, the 

motion is not in order. The Clerk will report the pending bill. 

THE COYGRESSIOYAL RECORD. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I ask consent to ma,ke a report. The Committee on Printing, to whom was referred the resolution directing the Public 

Printer to keep an account of all expenditures for printing, mailing, 

and binding the COY GRESS IONAL RECORD, have instructed me to report 

it back without amendment and recommend its passage. I ask for 

its present consideration. 

By unaninl.ous consent, the joint resolution (H. R. No. 112) direct- in~ the Public Printer to keep an account of all expenditures for 

pnnting, mailing, and binding the CoNGRESSIONAL RECORD, &c., was considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The joint resolution was reported to the Senate, ordered to a third 

reading, read the third time, and passed. · 

PENSIOYS TO SOLDIERS OF 1812. 

The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to consider 

the bill (H. R. No. 2190) to amend the act entitled "An act granting 

pensions to certain soldiers and sailors of the war of 1812, and the 

widows of deceased soldiers," approved February 14, 1871, and to 

restore to the pension-rolls those persons whose names were stricken 

therefrom in consequence of disloyalty. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. ~orne of my brother Senators think 

that I rather exaggerated the amount that is involved in this bill. 

I therefore desire to ask the chairman of the Committee on Pensions 

whether this pill will not involve the payment of about eleven millions of back pensions and four or five millions annually thereafter as it now stands Mr. PRATT. I am not able to answer with anything like precision 

the question of the Senator from Vermont. I will state that I am instructed by the committee to offer certain amendments to this bill, 

which will greatly reduce the amount necessary to be appropriated 

in order to pay these soldiers. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Then I will ask the chairman of the 

committee if he thinks the estimate I have given is an exaggerated 

statement or not'¥ ~!r. PRATT. The bill as it came from the House placed upon the 

pension-roll all the srn'vi ving soldiers of the war of 1812, which would 

include of course every man who hadserved aday, and it placed them 

upon the same foot ing with those soldiers who served sixty days in 

the war an(}. who were pensioned.under the act of February 14, 1871; 

but I am instructed by the committee to propose an amendment to 

the first section of this bill, so that it will limit the pensions that are .granted to those who are not ahea,dy pensioned to the date of the 

passage of this bill; tha,t is to say, the amendment that I shall propose will give to the ·surviviug soldiers who were not benefit,ed by 

the law of 1871 pensions from the date of the passage of this bilL 

l'tir .. MORRILL, of Vermont. I hope the Senator will pa,rdon my 

persistence in the pursuit of knowledge under great difficulties. He seems disinclined to give me any opinion :tS to the amonnt. I will 

therefore ask him whether he has not a statement of the Department 

itself on this subject, and if he has, I should be glad to know the estimate of t he Department as to the amount involved in this bill f 

Mr. PRATT. I >Yill cheerfully answer the Sen:ttor from Vermont. 

I applied to the Commissioner of Pensions for an approximate estimate of how much would be required to answer the demands of this 

bill as it came to the Senate from the House of Rep~sentatives; and 

without having the figures )lefore me, I will state in general terms 

that he estimated--

1\Ir. EDMUNDS. Have you not the letter 7 If you have, you had 

better have it ·read, so that we can all hear it. 

Mr. PRATT. It has been once read to the Senate. I have it here 

somewhere among my papers. . · 

l'tir. EDMUNDS. I never heard it. Was this bill ever up before f 

Mr. PRATT. It was up one day for the purpose of allowing me to 

explain it. ~ 

Mr. ED:~IUNDS. I should like to hear tho letter reud. I do notremember to have heard it. 

Mr. PRATT. The letter is incorporated in the remarks which I 

submitted to the Senate on this bill on the 6th of May, and I send a copy of it as printed in. the RECORD of the 7th of May, to the Secretary's desk for the purpose of having it read. · The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. ANTI!oyyin the chair.) If there 

be no objection, the letter will be read. 

The Chief Clerk read as follows : 

DEPA.RTME.."'T OF THE D""TERIOR, P EXSION OFFICE, 

Washington, D. 0., April29, 1874. 

Sm: In replla,to your inquiries of this date I ha.vethehonortoanswer aa follows: ro~! 1 

.A.t w t percentage per annum do the survi>ors of the war of 1812 on the 

It appears from our records that during the year ending June 30, 1872, of 17,100 

survivors on the roll, 604 deaths were reported, or J.5 per cent. During the year ending 1873, of 18,256 on the roll, 2,036 deaths were reported, or 11.1 per cent. Of the widows, out of 3,027 pensioned to June 30, 1872, 122 deaths were reported. or 4 per cent. In 1873, of 5,053 on the roll, 222 deaths, or 4.4 per cent. were reported. 
5194 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. JUNE 19, 

It is ncces ary to add tlmt this statement does not include all those of either 

class who died during tho e periods. Deaths are only reported to the office when 

allowances are claimed. We estimate the a-ctual loss to the roll at about 10 per ceiJt. per anuum thouuh the names may remain upon the record until three years from the date ot'la.st payment, when they will be dropped by operation of law. Second. How does the percentage of deaths increase as they get older 7 

From tho foregoing it will appear that we are unable to give reliable information 

up~hl;~ ~~h the soldiers of that war (1812) should be pensioned, what would be 

the probable addition to the list~ 

:Basinu the ef!timate upon expeiience under the act of Febrna·ry 14, 1871, I find 

th:J.t 51,5'55 oldiers of the war of 1812 would have been entitled at the date of i,l;s 

passarre for one day's service. Deducting therefrom 25 per cent. for those since 

tlcceased, 12,8B9, and 16t per cent. as an _allowance for those wh<?, fro~ various cau es will fail to apply, and those who will be unable to prove therr clauns, 6 445, 

and I conclude that 3'..!,221 soldiers would be added to the list, an excess of 10,836 

over the pre ent roll. 

Fourth. If widows who married before 1825 were admitted, how many would be 

added to the list~ 

Under date of January 15,1873 I had the honor t-o inform you that in the opinion of this office 16 000 widows would become entitled by the extension of the limita. 

tion as to mar~iage down to 1825, the t erm of service rem:;hlning at sixty days. 

Proper deductions from those figures would be 10 per cent. for deaths, 1,600, and 20 

per cent. for incomplete cL'l.ims, 2,880, leaving 11,520 as the number who would probab~~~0ll~~~~n!~;n_ed before 1850 were admitted to the pension-list, to what 

extent would it increa-se the present roll' 

Without claiming a great degree of accuracy for this tatement, I place the num- ber at 28 000 assuming that one day's service is intended. At date of 1825 these 

soldiers had 'reached an age when most men have formed their domestic relations, 

and marriages subsequent to that time were principally r emarriages. Sh...--th. Talring the House bill (2190) a.s it is, what would probably be the amount of appropriation necessary to meot the increase~ 

Survivors to be added, 10.386, at 96 per year- . .. -- ---.-. -.---. -. -..... . $1, 040, 256 

Widows to be added, 28,000, at $96 J>er year. -. ....• --. --- -.•. -.. -.-... -. 2, 688, 000 Removal of disloyalty bar, 464, at S96 per year .•. .... . -.. -- . . .. .•.. -. . .. 44, 640 

Total... . . . ..... . .......... .... . . .... ... ....... . ........... . .... .... 3, 772,896 

To pay arrearages, threo years .•.•.• .•.. .•••••••.• -... -... . . • • • • . • . . . • . 11, 318, 688 

Grand total ...••. ....•. . .... .. . .•.. .... -..•.... . ....... , • • • . . . . . • . . 15, 091, 584 

:Mr. EDMUNDS. That is a grand total, certainly ! 

The Chief Clerk resumed and concluded the reading of the letter, 

as follows : 

Upon the a sumption that the claims will be adjusted immediately upon the passage of the act, this amount of appropriation would become necessary. :But in fact 

their settlement would occupy several years, and the arrearages, to a large amount, 

become payable from future annual appropriations. As $400 would be required t.o meot the payment of each new claim admitted during the first fiscal year, if twenty thousand claims are adjusted during that period-and with a proper amount of 

force this can be done-an immediate appropriation of about $8,000,000 will be re- quired. Seventh. How many pensioners of the war of 1812 are now admitted 7 

Survivors . ...••..•.•... ..•• --.. ... -..••. ..•.•.• -•.• -..•.•...•.. .•. ... .•.. . . 21, 385 "\Vido,vs .....•. . .•••.....•..•. .• .... ••... ....... .• -. . . .. . • . . . . . . • • • • . . . . . . • . 6, 076 

Total •• ••.•.•.•. ••. .••.. .... . ••.••..... • ..... ••... ..•...•.•....•......•.. ' 27, 461 

Eighth. Wha.t, since you m:tde you last report, is the probable number of deaths 

of survivors and widows~ ' 

.Applying this question t-o pe~ioners, I am unable, without occupying more time 

than you liave allowed me, to gl.Ve an answer. If ma.de, as I state, under your first 

questions, the number reported to the office would vary materially from the correct number. 

In view of your req_uest for an immediate answer, the statement has been very hastily prepared, but lS believed to be approximately correct. Very respectfully, 

lion. D. D. PRATT, 

.TOS. LOCKEY, 

Acting Commissioner. 

Ohairman Oommittee on Pensions, United, States Senate. 

:Mr. PRATT. :Mr. President, that estimate of the Commissioner was made upon the basis of this bill which gives all the surviving soldiers 

who are not now admitted to the rolls arrears back to the 14th day of 

February, 1871. One of the amendments which I am instructed by 

the committee to offer will cut off all those arrears which go to swell so largely the sum total in the estimate. I have other letters from the 

Commissioner here which I have abstracted, and I will proceed to give 

his estimates upon different hypotheses that were submitted to him; 

first stating, however, the number at present on the rolls according 

to his last report under the existing law, that law which admitted 

all the surviving soldiers of the war of. 1812 who had served sixty 

days, and all of the widows of those soldiers who had clied who were married previous to the conclusion of the treaty of peace. Of the sur- viving soldiers there are 1 ,266, and of widows 5,053, making in all 

upon the pension-roll under the act of ·1H71, 23,319 who are drawing 

pensions at this time to the annual amount of $2,238,292. 

The Commissioner, in answer to a question that I propounded to 

him, stated that the number of survivors who erved one day is estimated to be 19,246. The pensions of this number at $9~ each would 

amount t o $1,847,616. 

Another question that I propounded to the Commissioner was, How 

many would be admitted to the roll, supposing that the bill was so changed as to include only those soldiers who had served thirty days 

during the wart And the estimate of the Commissioner js that the 

number of soldiers and widows entitled by a change in the law admitting to pensions tho e who have served thirty days would be 5,429, 

which at ninety-six dollars a year for each would amount to $511,184 

per year. I then submitted to him the question, What number of widows 

would be entitled by a change in this present bill, including those 

who were married before the year 1825, instead of the year 1850 as 

this bill proposes' And his answer is that the number would be 

15,200, which at ninety-six dollars a year would amount to ·1,459,200 

per year. 

The next que tion that I submitted to him was what number would 

be admitted to the roll if the term of service was limited to fourteen da~s, in accordan~e. with the bounty-land. a~t of the ~d of March, 1855, 

which the Senate will remember was the limit of semce. .All soldiers 

who had served in any of the wars of iJris country from 1790 do-.;vn 

to that time were by law declared to be entitled to bounty-land war- rants c~g for o_ne _hundred and_ sixty acres each; and taking that 

law as fixll1g a pnnmple upon which we should grant pen ions to tho 

surviving soldiers of the war of 1812, I asked what number woul<l 

be admitted to the rolls if the House bill were so chan<rcd as to limit 

its provisions to those who had served fourteen days 'f and hi estimate was that there would ·be 13,108 added to the rolls, which at 

ninety-six dollars each per year would amount to 1,258,368. I have not before me an estimate of the amotmt that would be 

required to satisfy the fifth section of the bill which provides for the 

restoration to the pension-rolls of the names of all persons now sur- viving who were heretofore pensioned on account of services in the war of 1812 against Great Britain, and who e names were stricken 

from the rolls in pursuance of the act of 1862 and the joint resolution 

of March 4, 1 67. :My general recollection is, however, that thee timate of the Commissioner is that there are about four hundred and 

forty-odd who have been dropped from the rolls and who would be 

entitled to restoratioll under the provisions of the :fifth section of 

this bill. 1\fr. EDMlThl)S. Have you not the report of the Commis ioner on that subject 

Mr. PRATT. I have somewhere; but I do not think I have the letter here. 

Mr. EDMUNi:>S. There must be a great many more than four hundred and forty, I should think. 

1\Ir. PRATT. My recollection is that jt was less than four hundred 

and fifty. I do not think I can be mistaken about that. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. How much is the arrearage due to each man 'I 

_ 1\-Ir. PRATT. According to the provisions of the fifth section of 

this bill these men who have been dropped from the rolls would be 

taken up just as if their pensions had never been suspended, and of course there would be twelve years of arrearages; that is suppo ing 

they were dropped from the rolls in 1 62 at the time the law on that 

subject passed. 

Mr. EDMUNDS. Although in fact they did not draw after 1861, I 

suppose ; so that you should add another year. 

:Mr. PRATT. That maybe er it may not. Now, Mr. President, the 

fu:st amendment which I am instructed by the Committee on Pen ions 

to move is to strike out fr9m line 3 to line 6 of section 1, in the following words: 

That the act grantin~ pensions to the surviving soldiers of the war of 1812, ap- proved February 14, 1871, be amended, so as io read as follows . 

That is stricken out for two purposes. In the first place, to meet 

the objection that was made upon a former occasion by the Senator 

from New York, [Mr. CONKLING,] that legislation of this kind was vicious because of reference to laws which had been repealed in the 

revision of the statutes; and for another reason, that this provi ion 

would entitle those who took under this bill to draw pensions from 

the 14th of February, 1871, whereas the instructions of the committee to me were to report such amendmants as would make the pensions to the surviving soldiers commence from the pa age of this 

bill. Therefore the first motion which I make is to strike out the 

words in the first section which I have just read. Mr. WEST. I think before the Senator passes from the subject of 

the number of pensioners and the amount involved, that the Senate ought to know in distinct and succinct ter s what is the amount of 

money sought to be app1·opriated by this bill. There is no amount 

specified in the bill. Now, cannot the Senator dive t it of all the 

verbiage of the difference of classification and tell us distinctly and 

straightforwardly how much money is involved in the bill 

Mr . .PRATT. I cananswerthe SenatorfromLonisiana betterwhen 

this bill has been considered and has been amended. He a ks now how much will be taken frorri the Treasury if .the bill should pas in 

its present form. Of course I cannot anticipate the action of the 

S!3na,te upon the .different provisions in this bill. Therefore I cannot 

respond to his que tion. · M:r. WEST. I dicl not a k the Senator the question as to what 

am6unt would be involved in the bill after the Senate should havo 

concluded it; but I ask him now, as he ha reported favorably on the 

bill and advocates it, how much is involved in the bill as it stands. 

Mr. PRATT. The Senator has listened I presume, or he ought to 

have listened, to the estimate of the Commissioner of Pensions. He 

speaks of me as the advocate of this bill. I am not the advocate of 

the bill as it stands. I am instructed, on the contrary, by the Committee on Pensions to propose certain amendments, and I propo e to submit certain amendments of my own motion. The estimate of 

the Commissioner of Pen ions is that to meet the demands of this 

bill in its pre ent form, including arrearages, will require something 

upward of 15,000,000. 1\Ir. WEST. A.h! that is the answer. The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. ANTHO~"'Y ) The Senator from 

Indiana offers an amendment which will be read. 
1874 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5195 

The CHIEF CLERK. It is proposed to strike out in section 1 the 

following words : 

That the act granting pensions to the surviving soliliers of the war of 1812, llpprovod February 14, 1871, be amended so as to road as follows. 

1\fr. FRELIN.GHUYSEN. How will the section read when amended Y 

The CHIE_n: CLERK. The first section will then commence: 

That tho SecretarY. of tho Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to place on tho pension-rolls the names of tho surviving officers and enlisted and 

drafted men, including militia and volunteers, &c. 

:Mr. FRELINGHUYSE~. Mr. President, no member of this body is 

dispo ed to oppose a pension bill; every Senator feels grateful to any one who risked his life in the defen e of the countty; but it does seem to me that in the closing hours of the session, and after we have been 

engaged here to-day for twelve hours, to introduce f?r con~ideration 

in the present state of the finances of the country a bill which we are told makes a draft upon the Trea ury of more than $15,000,000 is an act wanting in patriotism. We owe a duty to the country, a duty to 

its :finances, a duty to the Treasury, that should make us hesitate. It 

may be that in a more prosperous condition of the country, it may be 

that when our financial condition is improved, this measure or some well-considered measure in this direction may commend itself to Congress. But after we have been here twelve hours to-day, when we have but a d...'ty left of tho se sion, when it is utterly impossible to con- sider ;1 bill of this magnitude as it should be considered, I say that 

inste:Ld of being an act of patriotism, it is an act wanting in patriotism to introduce ancl force it upon the Senate. Sir, to gain 15,000,000 

into this Treasury the whole nation has been disturbed and we have 

seut commissioners to Geneva and had an arbitration with England. 

'Ve had insisted upon it and were ready to go to war to obtain it. 

nut now when everybody in the Senate is worn out, when there is no opportunity of considering this measure, we are forced to take up a bill appropriating 15,000;.000, and I would like to a k my friend from 

Indiana, after this $15,00u,OOO is expended, what will be the annual 

expenditure for the next :five or ten yearsY 

Mr. PRATT. It will depend entirely on the form which this bill 

takes after it has been considered by the Senate. I cannot answer the Senator from New Jersey. 

1'l!r.FRELINGHUYSEN. Ithinkmyfriendoughttobeabletoanswer 

the Senator from New Jersey. It is no satisfaction to me, when I am bound here on my oath to protect the interest of the Treasury of this 

country, for one who promotes a bill to tell me that after the bill has 

passed and becomes a law, and when the information can be of no value, then he will be prepared to tell me what will be the draft upon 

the Treasury I I suppose that it will cost four or :five millions a year 

for the next ten years to ful:fill the obligations of this bill. 

Mr. PRATT. If·the alTears ~eature of the billis stricken out, I do 

not think it will require more than 3,000,000 a year at the very outide to sa,tisfy the demands of this bill. I may say further that it 

appears from the letter of the Commissioner that the average age of 

the surviving soldiers of the war of 1812 is at this time about eighty- one years. 'Vhy, Mr. President, it is nearly sixty years since peace wa-s concluded with Great Britain. Peace was made, as the Senate is aw~e, in December, 1814. Here we are in the year of grace 1874. 

It will be in December next sixty years since the men who will take 

the benefit of the provisions of this bill were disbanded. The Senate can judge for itself how rapidly this list will diminish. Why, 

sir, they are falling now rapidly like leaves in December. The last 

survivor will not probably live more than ten or :fifteen years at the 

very outside. 

Why should we hesitate to do this measure of justice to the sur- vivors of that war, when we cousiderthe liberallegislation in behalf 

of the revolutionary soldiers? There are Senators here who in 1864 

voted to pay so long as he lived to every surviving soldier of the 

revolutionary war 100 in addition to tho pension he was drawing 

though he had never been disabled in the service of the country. 

Why, sir, Congress from time to time has voted seventy-four millions 

of acres to the soldiers of the country in its different wars. Most of 

the survivors of the war of 1812 are poor, many of them objects of 

cltarity, eighty-one years of age. They can last but a few years at 

most. Why should we grude what we so freely gave to the soldiers 

of the Revolution, ninety-six dollars a year Y It is but a pittance to 

each of them; and as I said before if you cut off the arrears which the 

House gave to these soldiers and to their ~dows I think the :figure 

that I named is the very outside amount which will be required to be 

appropriated for the purpose of paying the e survivors and their 

widows the first year. It will be much less the second, still less the 

third, diminishing rapidly, until ten years hence probably there 

will scarcely be a survivor left on the rolls. 

:Mr. FRELINGHUYSE.N. I wish to ask my friend a question, and 

I ask for information because I do not know. What effect upon the 

claim of a pensioner under this bill would it have if he has been engaged in a war against the United States since 1812 ¥ 

Mr. PRATT. The :fifth section of this bill restores to the pensionroll all those soldiers of the war of 1812 who were disabled in the 

service of the country and :fighting under its flag, men who are hobbling around on crutches, stretched upon beds of sickness; men who 

at the time this rebellion occurred were sixty-five or seventy years 

of age at least, and who could have given no active aid or comfort or 

assistance to the rebellion; men to whom the nati91} owed a solemn 

debt, each one of whom held a certificate from this Government that 

it would pay him ninety-six dollars a year, and there was no condition written in that certificate. The act of 1 62 did not -confiscate 

that debt. It simply suspended its payment, and for wise and politic reasons. But the pensions which are restored by the fifth section of 

this bill are in the nature of indemnifications that the country was paying to those men who had lost their health and strength in its 

service in the war of 1812. That is the class of men whom this bill 

restores to the pension-roll, not simply men who had served in that 

war, but men who had been disabled, broken down in that war and 

rendered incapable of earning their subsistence. Does any gentle- man who listens to me refuse to resume payment now nine years since 

the war has concluded! I have heard a great deal of patriotic talk 

in this Hall against repudiation; but, Mr. President, can you conceive a more shameful act of repudiation than for the nation to refuse to pay 

pensions to these men who were injured in its service and :fighting 

under the flag of the country, whose pension certificates were as I 

said before simply in the nature of indemnity that the nation agreed , to pay them for their losses of health and strength 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. 'Vill my friend be good enough to an- swer my question Y 

Mr. PRATT. I did not understand the question. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I asked what effect this bill had-aml I 

asked for information, for I did not know-upou the pension of those 

who had engaged in war against the country. 

Mr. PRATT. 1'l!r. President, the acts affected by this section w re leveled a~ainst tho e who had given aid and comfort to the rebellion. 

Mr. FRJ!JLINGHUYSEN. Which section is it¥ 

Mr. PRATT. The :fifth section. I will read it: 

That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized aml clir ctcd 

to restore to the pension-rolls tho names of aJl persons now sru·vivin.g heretofo!:o - pensioned on a~count of service in the war of 1812 a..,aainst Great BritainAnd the bill might have :Ldded "pensioned because of disability 

incurred in service rendered to their country," because that was the 

fact. No one else was admitted to the pension-rolland whoso names were stricken from the rolL'! in pursuance of the act entitled 

".A.n act," &c. 

I have before me the two acts under which payments were stop peel 

to these soldiers. The act of February 4, 1 62, reads as follow : 

That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, anthorized and directed to strike from the pension-rolls the names of all such persons as have or may hereafter take up arms against tho Gi>vernment of tho United States, orMark the alternativeor who have in any manner encouraged tho rebels or manifested a sympathy with 

their cause. 

If a man livin~ right in the heart of secession, in S-outh Carolina, 

manifested any <1egree of sympathy whatever with the cause of the 

rebellion his name wa-s at once stricken from the roll under the provisions of this act. Although he may have been a paralytic, though ho 

may have been stretched on a bed of sickness, though he was going 

about on crutches and could render the rebellion no service at all, 

yet this law struck his name from the pension-rolls. The joint reso- lution of March 2, 1867, simply prohibited "payment by any Government officer to any person not known to have been opposed to the· rebellion." I believe now I have answered the Senator from New 

Jersey. 

1'l!r. FRELINGHUYSEN. Then I understand the question to be 

this : For sixty years this Government has not felt the great obligation which seems, near twelve o'clock at midnight on t.he last day but one of the session of Congress, to propose to take 15,000,000 out of' 

the Treasury at a time when we cannot consider it. For these sixty 

years this Government has suffered that claim to rest until now comes a provision that those are to be paid who have taken up arms against 

the Government of the United States; for this act by its very terms 

repeals the act authorizing the Secretary of tp.e Interior to strike 

from the pension-rolls ·the names of such persons as have taken up arms against the United States or who have in any manner encour- aged the rebels. That is the act that is repealed. 

Mr. President, I do not say, I do not mean to commit myself one way or the ot,.her on that point, that a state of circumstances may not 

possibly exist which would authorize the repeal of that act; but I do mean to say that this is no time, at this hour, at this period of the 

session, to consider an act of that character. It ou~ht to have the 

calm and careful deliberation of the Senate. It ougnt to be made 

known to the country. If we are going to vote away $15,000,000 or $16,000,000, or as I make it it out 20:000,000, for that letter reported 

that a deduction of from $4,000,000 to $5,000,000 was ma-de for fifteen 

thousand who it was thought would not present claims-if we are going to make such an appropriation in the present state of our finances 

and relieve those who took up arms against the Government and pay a large part of it to them, we ought to do it deliberately, we ought 

to do it at a time when the country can be heard from. I do not think 

that it is a patriotic mode of manifesting our patriotism. 

1\fr. SAULSBURY. Mr. President, I may be wanting in patriotism; 

but I came here this evening in order that I might assist to do justice 

to a class of men who before a large number of the members of this 

Senate had a being were fighting the battles of the country and 

upholding its honor against a foreign foe. Patriotism is something 

undefined; what the Senator from New Jersey may call patriotism 
5196 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 

mi~ht not be regarded as patriotism by others; but if there is any- act 

wh1ch a Senator on this rloor can perform which is patriotic, it is that 

of rewarding the men who fought the battles of this country and 

helped to maintain its honor and dignity when that honor and dignity were threatened by a. foreign enemy. I do not think the declaration is justifiable that it is wanting in patriotism in Senators to avow their readiness to do justice to the men, the youngest of whom 

is now at least seventy-five years of age, who in 1812 enlisted in the 

service of the country and who have been postponed from time to 

time. Now in their last days when there is an effort made to do justice to them, when a Senator on this floor rises up and denounces that as unpatriotic, I must say that It~ such language is unbecoming 

at least in this 8enate. If it is unpatriotic, then for one I glory in 

being unpatriotic. I am willing to reward the men who before I had an existence fought the battles of this country, and I am much more willing to reward those than I am younger men near my own age. 

Sir, they are now destitute, they are helpless, they are unable to provide for themselves; and in their old age, in their infirmity, when we ' know the value of their services to the country, I take issue with the 

Senator and I say it is unpatriotic not to reward them. 

If we postpone placing these soldiers on the pension-list a few 

years longer, the last of them will have passed away. I suppose the 

Senator from New Jersey desires a postponement of this question; 

but I think that to-night is the time; I do not care whether it is near twelve o'clock or whether it is one o'clock or :five o'clock in the 

morning. I came here to vote for this bill, and I am ready to stay 

here until seven o'clock in the morning in order to accomplish it. I 

hope the friends of .this bill will not suffer themselves to be defeated 

in their u~dertakin~, but that they will stand by it and that they 

will restore to the pension-list every m8.n. who was struck off because 

of his supposed sympathy with secession. I want to see these men restored back. I want to see the last marks of distinction between 

loyal and disloy~l men wiped out. The time has come when we should have nothing of that feeling. A continual keeping up of this 

agitation about loyal and disloyal men is doing more harm to this 

country to-day than a little. I heard a speech no later than yesterday in this Senate in which the terms "rebel" and "traitor" and so forth were used. That kind of language, in my opinion, is calculated 

to keep up ill-feeling in the country. We should do everything to 

blot out the remembrance of the late war, that we may become once more a united peOllle, united not only under a common Government, 

but in common sympathies, in common feelings, having but one destiny, and feeling a common pride in our own great country. 

Mr.FLANAGAN. l'lfr.President,Ifeelanxioustoaddafewremarks 

in direct harmony with those that have been presented so ably by 

my distinguished friend from Delaware. I indorse his sentiments 

throughout. It is time that this great question should be buried. 

What are the evidences here¥ Recently we have mourned the death 

of distinguished generals who had achieved valiant actions upon many 

battle-fields in · the recent unfortunate struggle allud,ed to by him. 

Their .actions were meritorious. I never sympathized ·with that rebellion in the first degree at any moment of my life. Previous to it, when 

I saw it was upon us aa the little cloud that was to be seen in the 

heavens; I warned my fellow-citizens against it. But all those things 

I am gratified to know have passed away; and now when one of the 

distinguished s-enerals who served in that war dies, a pension is voted 

almost instantly to the widow. I vote for such bills every day. Now 

I am gratified to have an opportunity to vote for the widows of the 

soldiers of 1812 who so nobly fou~ht for and delivered his country 

from the perils that were upon it. 1 want to place them side by side; 

that brings the old and new together in harmony. 

Sir, it is the proper period for us to forgive those wP.o were once stricken from the pension-rolls because they happened to live in the 

rebellious portions of this Union, that, unfortunately as I conceive, 

endeavored to dissolve the best Government that civilized man has ever been blessed with. I forgive :them. Why should i not f 

In this I am consistent with the action of the Senate in other matters. 

Am I not Y Now, when a southerner asks for relief from his political 

disabilities, no ma,n in the Senate withholds it. If he only asks for 

it it is accorded to 'him with all manner of cheerfulness. How can you relieve him from his disabilities and then, acting consistently 

and in line, refuse the little pittance which he asks from the Government as a pension 7 You clhlinot do it. Then y_ou must replace him 

where he originally was: How is it as to confiscated property f You are placing everybody· in statu quo just as far as you are possibly 

able to do so; you are giving equity; you are giving justice; you are giving them perhaps more than they d~serve. I think they were wron~, but I have the magnanimity I trust, on this occasion, a..s I 

have mvariably had to accord to them the same honesty of purpose 

that I claim. I have no hesitation in saying thousands of them believed they were correct. I never did believe they were. But now 

that question is buried and we must do justice to them, and in doing 

justice to them we certainly will protect ourselves. 

It is said this will cost millions. I know not what it may foot up ; 

but properly has that been answered by the distinguished Senator 

who has the bill in charge. It will depend evidently upon the amendments that may be made. But I do not beg that question; I am not 

in the habit of doing s<'J. Whenever I am for a mea-sure I am for it, 

and when I am opposed to it I am aa plainly.situated. I care not 

what the millions may be. It is a principle I am looking to. I think 

this is a debt meritoriously due, and the money cannot be bette_ 

appropriated. Nay, sir, in the river and harbor bill or any other bill 

that is before the Congress of the United States there can be no appropriation that has more merit in it in my humble opinion than 

this. I confess I am anxious to get an opportunityto record my vote 

in behalf of the old soldier and in behalf of his widow. My distinguished friend from New Jersey says that the time may come for this. 

We heard that expressed many, many years ago. We read of a "convenient season ; " but we ru·e admonished that it never came; nor will it come for t.hls matter if the bill is now postponed. There are those who are dying off to-night, as I am speaking here in all probability, who should have been protected at an earlier day; and I do 

not wish to postpone; I want to relieve them at the earliest period. 

It is objected further that this is an inopportune time, that this 

bill cannot be properly investigated now. Well, it is very evident 

that eYery Senator here knows the importunity, the mighty strugrrle 

that my friend, the chairman of the Committee on Pensions, m;de 

the other day. He made a gigantic charge upon the Senate, admonishing them of the injustice they were doing, and that he would keep 

this bill before them and upon them from time to time, and if it has 

not been considered by the Senators it seems to me that they might 

say that which I surely would not say of them, that they had been a little remiss. ' 

This is a ~reat question they say now. If so, it ought to have had 

their attentiOn. It has had mine; it has hacl my sympathies; I am all anxiety to record my vote in behalf of it, and I do second he 

motion of the Senator from Delaware, and hope that the Senators in 

favor of the passage of this bill will not be governed by the hands 

that we see moving on yonder clock steadily, but that they will sit 

here till the bill is passed. I am one of the oldest, perhaps the oldest 

her:e, but on this occasion I feel buoyant like a boy. I will sit here ~itS long as any Senator will remain in this great and just cause. Mr. \VEST. J\.Ir. President, I do not rise to participate in the discussion of the patriotic sentiments connected with this bill; but I 

think when the Senate of the United States proposes to be liberal 

to whoever may deserve their liberality, they ought to understand 

whether they have the mean.s under their control belonging to the 

people in the· hands of the Government of the United States to exer- cise that liberality with. I regret that the chairman of the Committee on Finance is not here to give something like a. comprehensive statement of the financial condition of this country at the present moment. 

I have made since this debate opened and since I was startled by the 

magnitude of the figures presented by the Senator from Indiana a rough estimate of the financial situation of this country for the com- ing year, and I wish to call the attention of Senators now to the fact 

that my conclusions, however imperfect they may be, point directly 

to the fact that whatever amount you appropriate in this bill you are going to be short in your finances ; whatever amount you appropriate in this bill you must issue bonds of the United States to meet; 

and I ask the other side of the Hou.Se, who are mostly in favor of this 

bill, whether they propose to indulge in liberality at the expense of a further increase of the public debt f Now let us see these :figures. 

Tb.e Secretary of the Treasury ill his estimat-e laid before us a.t the 

opening of this session of Congress points us to the fn.-ct that the total 

estimated revenues .of this country for the coming :fiscal year will be 

$305,7007000, and the estimated expenditures of the Government for 

the same period are $319,191,000. There is a deficiency of nearly 

$14,000,000 in the fiscal budget of this country for the coming year, 

not comprehendin~ the countless and innumerable appropriations 

that have been mane here by special bills. 

The Committee on Appropriations have sat here, and in scrutinizinrr 

the bills that have been submitted to them they have been actuated 

by a desire to reduce the appropriations to the lowest possible limit, 

and by commendable economy we probably can offer a budget to the 

country that will bring us about even. That is as near as I can understand t.he figures, although many of the bills have not been com- pleted at the present time. 

Mr. THURMAN. I should like to inquire of the chairman of the 

committee, who has this bill in charge, whether he wishes us to sit it 

out or not' We have been in session now for twelve and a half hours 

with the exception of a brief re·cess. Whether or not we shall make 

any greater progress by sitting this bill out to-night, being completely 

exhausted to-morrow and unable to do any serious work, is a very 

questionable thing with me. I make this inquiry certainly in no spirit of hostility to the bill, 

because I am inclined to fa.vor it; but if we are not to sit it out we had better adjourn, I think, at once. If we are to sit it out, we han 

better know what we are to do, so that we may govern ourselves ac- cordingly. We ought to know whether we are to sit it out or not, 

and I would be glad therefore to know what the Senator wishes, 

whether he wishes us to sit it out or not. 

J\.Ir. PRATT. I will state there ru·e important amendments to be 

offered. 

Mr. THUR:h1AN. If we adjourn now this bill will be the unfinished business, will it not, Mr. President 'f 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (~Ir. 'VRIGIIT in the chair.) It mll. 

Mr. PRATT. I shall interpose no objection to the adjournment 

prO.[lOSed. 

Mr . . THURMAN. I will not make the motion against -the wishes 

of the chvirman. If the chairman wishes to sit the bill out I will 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 5197 

sit it out with him, but if he has no objection I suggest that we had 

better adjourn. 

Mr. PRATT. ·I have no objection. 

Mr. THURMAN. Then I move that the Senate adjourn. · Mr. LEWIS. I hope the Senate will not adjourn. ·we shall never get another cl.Jance to vote for this bill if we adjourn now. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Ohio moves that 

the Senate do now adjourn. 

Mr. COOPER and Mr. DAVIS called for the yeas and nays; and 

they were ordered. · The yeas and nays were taken. 

Mr. SPENCER. On this question I am paired with the Senator 

from ·ohio, [Mr. SHEruiAN.] If he were here he would vote "yea," · and I should vote "nay." 

Mr. HAMILTON, of Maryland. On this question I am paired with 

the Senator from Vermont, [Mr. ED;\IUNDS.] He would vote "yea," 

and I should vote "nay." 

Mr. RANSOM. I desire to state that on this bill the Senator from 

Wisconsin llli. CARPENTER] and the Senator from Delaware [Mr. 

BAYARDl are paired. :Mr. BAYARD would vote for the bill, and Mr. 

CARPENTER against it. 

Mr. SPENCER. I desire to make a statement in reference to 

myself and the Senator from Ohio, [l\fr. SHERMAN.] If he were here 

he would vote against the bill, and I would vote for it. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I hope the vote will be announced, and we can have these explanations to-morrow morning. 

The result was announced-yeas 27, nays 21; as follows: 

YE.A.S-Messrs. Allison, Anthony, Borema.n, Boutwell, Chandler, Clayton, Con- over Ferry of Michi~an, Frelinghuysen, Hager, Hamlm, Hitchcock, Jones, Mc- Cree~y, Morrill of Marne, Morrill of Vermont, Oglesby, Pease, Pratt, Ramsey, Sargent, Scott, Thurman Washburn, We t, Windom, and Wright--e7. 

NAYS-Messrs. Alcorn, Bogy, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Fenton, Flanagan, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hamilton of Texas1 Johnston, Kelly, Lewis, Merri.mon, Norwood, 

Patterson, Ransom, Robertson, &.rusbury, Stevenson, and Tipton-21. ABSENT-Messrs. Bayard, Brownlow, Buckin~ham, Cameron, Carpenter, Conklin<T Cragin, Dorsey, Edmunds, Ferry of Connecticut, Gilbert, Hamilton of Maryland, Harvey, Howe, Ingalls, Logan, M.i~hell, Morton, Schurz, Sherman, Spencer 

Sprague, Stewart, Stockton, and Wadlelgh-25. 

So the motion was agreed to; and (at eleven o'clock and thirtyfive minutes p. JP.) the Senl\te adjourned. 

' 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 

FRIDAY, June 19, 1874. 

The House met at eleven o'clock a.m. Prayer by the Chaplain, 

Rev. J. G. BUTLER, D. D. . The Clerk proceeded to read the Journal of yesterday. 

Mr. HOLl\IAN. I move that the further reading of the Journal be 

dispensed with. 

The motion was agreed to. 

REPORT ON TRANSPORTATIO.c . 

:Mr. DONNA.L~, from the Committee on Printing, submitted the 

following concurrent resolution; which was read, considered, and 

agreed to: 

Resolved by the House of Representatives, (tlte Senate concurring,) That there be 

printed six thousand copies of the report, w;ith appendfx and evidence, of the Select 

Committee of the Senate on Transportation to the Sea-board, four thousand of 

which shali be for the use of the House of Representatives, and two thousand for 

tho use of the Senate. 

REPORT, OF CO:IL.'1ISSIONER OF EDUCATION. 

1\fr. DONN .AN also, from the same committee, reported the following 

resolution; which was rea.d, considered, and agreed to: 

Resolved by the House of Representatives, (the Senate concurring,) That there shall 

be printed twenty thou and copie of the report of the Commissioner of Education, 

five thousand of which number sbnll be for the use of the Commissioner, five thousand for the use of the Senate, and ten thousand for the use of the House of Repre- sentatives. 

llEPORT ON FIBH M\"'D FISHERIES. 

l\Ir. DONN .AN also, from the same committee, reported the following 

concurrentre olution of the Senate; which was read, considered, and 

concurred in : 

Resolved, (the House of Representatives concu1·ring,) That Spencer F. Baird, 

United States Commissioner of Fish and F~heries, be authorized to have the 

engravings for his r eport executed unuer the direction of the Joint Committee on Pu.blic Printing. 

STATISTICAL ATLAS. 

:Mr. DONNAN also, from the same committee, reported the following resolution : 

Resolved by the House o.f R epresentatives, (the Senttte concurring,) That the three 

thousand copies of the Statistical Atlas of the United States, based on the results 

of the ninth census, now being compiled by Francis A. Walker, the publica.tion of 

which is provided for by the act of March 3, 1873, shall be distributed for public 

and official use as i'ollows: Twenty-five copies for the President; six hundred 

copies for the Senate; one thousand two hundred copies for the House of Representatives; two hundred and twenty-five copies for the State Uepartment, a.ud 

for t..ransmission to United States legations and the more important consulates 

abroad, and to the legations of foreign government-s in Washington; seventy-five copies for the Tre:lsury Department; forty copies for the War Department; twenty- five copies for the Navy Department; twenty-fi-ve copies for the Department of 

Justice; twenty-five copies for the Department of Agnculture; six hundred copies 

for the Department of the Interior for its use and di.stribution among the execu- tives of the several States, State libraries, and libraries and literary mstitutions; 

sixtv copies for the Library of Congress, and one hundrod copies for Francis A. 

Wa1ker. . 

Mr. DONNAN. I will state to the House that the printing of this 

document was ordered by the last Congress but no provision was m:td.e for it.s distribution. 

The resolution was agreed to. 

REPORT ON ML.~G STATISTICS. 

l\Ir. DONNAN, from the Committee on Printing, reported the following concurrent resolution : 

Resolved by the House of lUpresentati.ves, {the Senate concurring,) That of the report 

of R. W. Raymond on mining statistics, with the accompanyino- engravi.n.,.s, there 

be printed three thousand copies for the House of Representatives, two thousand 

for the Senate, one thousand copies for the Treasury Department, and one thousand copies for the commissioner. 

Mr. HOLMAN. It seems to me that we are running into a very 

unusual expense to the Treasury for these plates. I think I have not 

known for many years the publication of so many plates as are now recommended by the CommitWe on Printing. It will be attended with a great deal of expense. 

Mr. DONNAN. This was recommended by the committee two or three months ago, and was in the hands of one of my colleagues on the committee to be reported. He is absent and I have reported it. 

l\1r. HOLMAN. Unless we are to adopt some mode of distributing 

these documents to the country which will be more certain than by 

this mode, I do not think we should adopt this resolution. 

l\Ir. DONNAN. It is the usual publication, and two thousand less 

copies. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I think we are going into a great expense. The resolution was adopted. 

PRINTL.~G OF DEBATES. 

Mr. DONNAN, from the Committee on Printing, reported a joint 

resolution (H. R. No. 112) in regru:d to printing the debates of Congress. 

The resolution upon which the committee acted was as follows: 

Resolved, That ~be Committee on Printing be, and they are hereby, directed to inquire into the cost of reporting and printing the debates of Congress, as the work 

is now being done; whether it WIU! not more acceptably and economically done by 

the proprietors of the Globe; whet.ber the permanent establishment of the work at the Government Printing Office will not involve large expenditures for facilities 

for its prosecution, and to report by bill or otherwise at as early a day as prac- ticable. 

The joint resolution accompanying the report was read, as follows : 

Resolved lnJ the Senate and House of Repruentative& of the United States of America 

in Oongrus assemlJled., That the Congressional Printer be, and he is hereby, directeu to keep a separate ana exact account in detail of all expenditures for printing, mail- ing, and bindin~. the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, including specific statements of the cost of all macninery and material which may have been or shall be used for the 

publication of said RECORD, commencing with. its first public.'l.ti.on at the Govern- ment Printing Office, and that be shall publish the amounts thus yearly expended in his next succeeding annual rep()rt, and each succeeding report, separately from 

the other <fiabursements of his office. • 

Mr. DONNAN. I desire briefly to call the attention o.f the House 

to the conclusions of the committee. In regard to the reporting of 

the debates, the syste-m of which ha.s been changed, and which until 

the very recent action of the two Houses materially reduced the ex- pense, it has by the action of the two Houses within the last ten days 

been so arranged as to make the cost of reporting precisely what it wa.s for the last Congress. In regard to the expense of printing and 

binding the debates the committee come to the conclusion that the 

printing of the debates of the present Congress at the Government 

Printing Office will cost the Government (if the volume of work shall 

equal that of the last Congress) at least $125,000 less than was paid to 

l\Iessrs. Rives & Bailey for the same volume of work for the Fortysecond Congress. 

The present quarto form of the daily REcoRD, although attended 

with slightly increased cost, is greatly preferable to the newspaper 

form. 

Upon a calculation of comparative cost, upon an equal quality of 

paper, as between t.he Government Printing-Office and the Globe 

office, the proposal for the work of Messrs. Rives & Bailey is to be 

increased in the sum of $24,727.55 for 10,914 pages of printed matter 

and 12,332 copies. 

The proposal of Rives & Bailey, so far as it relates to the binding, 

if they furnish equal quality of material with that now used, is $6,116 

cheaper(the volume of the work being as stated above) for the debates 

of a. full Congress than the bintting is now being done at the Government Office. 

· The cost of the debates of the present Congress, the numbe:¥ being now fixed at 10,350 copies, if the work makes 10,014 pages, will cost 

2131508.49, which is less than it would cost under the proposed contract 

of R1 ves & Bailey, makingproportionate allowances on the cost of paper 

and the loss at the Government Office on binding, and counting the 

entire stereotyping a real loss to the Government, in the sum of 

61,18'2.06. . . 

The probable expenditure for facilities to continue this work at the 

Government Printing Office will be comparatively trifling. It would be the reverse of economy to enter into the proposed con- tract with Rives & Bailey. . The expenditure for this work ought to be kept separate and dis-