1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1579 

McKee, MeN nita, Mellish, Monroe, Moore, Negley, Packard, Page, Isaac C. Parker, 

Pelham, James H. Platt~ jr., Rainey, Ray, Ellis H. Roberts, James W. Robinson, Ross Rusk, Henry B. Sayler, Isaac W. Scudder, Shanks, Sherwood, La.zarus D. 

Sboeinaker, Smart, A. H err Smith, George L . Smit.h, Sprague, Starkweather, Strait., 

Strawbridge, Syp~er, Thomas, Todd, :W:allace, \Y~. ~?us L. ~::rrd, Wbi~e, 

Wilber, George Willard, John M.S. Williams, William Williams, William B. Wil· 

liams, J ames Wilson, and Woodford--81. 

NOT VOTING-Messrs. Adams, Arthur, Ashe, Atkins, Banning, Barnum, Bar- rera, Barry, Bass, Begole, Berry, Burchard, Burrows, Cain, Cannon, Amos Clark, jr., Freeman Clarke~.-.Clymer, Con!?~r, Cook, Creamer, Crocker, Curtis, Danford, Darrall, 

John J. Davis, ueWitt, Dueu, Eden. Elliott Farwell, Freeman, Frye, GartiolU, Gunckel, Hamilton, Harmer, Havens, GerryW. Hazelton, John W. Hazelton, Hen- dee, Herndon, Hersey, Hooper, Howe, Hubbell, Jewett, Kasson, Kelley, K ellogg, K endall, Killinger, Knapp, I:amison, Lamport, Lan ~n"", LaW!ence, J:each, ~oughrirlge, Lowe, Luttrell, Martin, Alexander . McDill, Mernam, Mills, Mitchell, 

Morey, Morrison, Myers, Nesmith, ""ibl:wk, ile , Nunn, O'Brien, O'Neill, Orth, 

Parsons, Phelps, Phiilip , Pike, Thoma C. Platt, P oland, Potter, Pratt, Purman, 

Randall, Ransier, Rapier, Read, Richmond, William R. P..obert , James C. Robinson, 

Jili.lton Sayler, John G. Schumaker, cofield, Henry J. Scllllder, Shoats, Sheldon, Sloss, Small, J. Ambler Smith, William A. Smith, nyder, tophens, St. John, 

Stowell Taylor, Thornburgh, Townsend, Tremain, Tvner, Waldron, Ja;rpP.r D. 

Ward, Wheeler, Whitehouse, Whiteley, Ephraim K. Wil on, Jeremiah M. Wilson, 

Wolfe, Wood, and Woodworth-121. 

So the motion to adjourn was agreed to. 

Before the result of the vote was announced, 

:Mr. HYNES said: I rise to a privileged question. I wish to know 

how I am recorded on the proposition to substitute the resolution of 

the minority for that of the majority Y • 

The SPEAKER. That is not a privileged question. 

Mr. HYNES. I supposed it was, as it is a matter affecting the record. 

The SPEAKER. It does not affect the r ecord of this vote. 

Mr. HYNES. No, sir. The result of the vote was then announced as above stated; and 

accordingly (at six o'clock and thirty minutes p. m.) the House 

adjourned. 

PETITIONS, ETC. 

The following memorials, petitions, n.nd other papers, were presented at the Clerk's desk under the rule, and referred as stated: 

By Mr. ARCHER: The petition of Nathan S:Gurney, for arrears of 

pension, to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. By Mr. BUTLER, of fassachusetts: The petition of certain mem- bers of t h e Georgia Legislature :mel others, for the passage of a supplementary civil-rights bill, to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Also, the petition of citizens of Cape .A.nn, fassachusetts, for the 

improvement of Annisqnam River, to t he Committee on Commerce. 

Also, the petition of Adam ::md Lydia Freshour, for a pension, to the 

Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

Also, the petition of Benjamin Webb, of Salem, Massachusetts, for 

payment for the brig Leontine and her cargo, sunk n.nd destroyed by 

collision with the United States storeship Release, to the Committee 

on Claims. 

By l\lr. CESSNA: The petition of citizens of Bedford County, Pennsylvania, for the repeal of duties on friction and lucifer matches, to 

the Committee on Ways and Means. 

By :Mr. CLAYTON: The remonstrance of Treadwell & Co., of San 

Fmnci co, California, against the renewal of the Haines pat-ent for 

machine for clipping the heads of grain, to the Committee on Patent . By l'!lr. COBURN: The petition of Tarvin C. Grooms, for arrears of 

pay as first lieutenant One hundred and .fifteenth Indiana Volunteers, to the Committee on Military .Aifairs. 

By Mr. CONGER: The petition of citizens of Saint Cln.ir, Michigan, for the improvement of Pine River, Michigan, to the Committee on Commerce. 

Also, the petition. of E. B. Ward, and other vessel owners, for an appropriation for a light-house at Alpena, :Michigan, to the Committee on Commerce. 

By 1\lr. HARRIS, of Virginia: The petition of the trustees of the 

Richmond Female Institute, situa.ted in Richmond, Virginia, for com- . pensa,tion for the use by the United States of the buildings and grounds 

of said institute, to the Committee on War Claims. By l'!lr. LOWE : The petition of certain homestead claimants in 

Kansas for the protection of their titles against the claims of railroad 

companies under land grants, to the Committee on the Public Lands. 

Also, the petition of the Leavenworth Medico-Chirurgical Society, 

for the passage of the bill to increase the efficiency of the Medical 

Department of the .Army, to the Committee on Military .Aifair . By 1\lr. MARTIN: The petition of citizens of Centralia, l\Iarion 

County, Illinois, that a. pen ion be granted Irs. Sarah Summerville, 

widow of Alexander Summerville, formerly deputy provost mar hal 

eleventh Illinois district, to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. McDILL, of Wis~onsin: The petitions of citizens of Juneau County, Wisconsin, for an rncrease of duty on imported hops, to the 

Committee on Ways and Means. 

Also, the petition of druggists of Madison, Wisconsin, for the repe'tl 

of the stamp tax on medicines, to the Committee on Ways and Means. 

By :Mr. 1\UTCHELL: The memorial of the city authorities of Milwaukee, Wisconsin,forthe improvement of :Milwaukee Harbor, to the 

Committee on Commerce. 

By :Mr. MOORE : The petition of C. H. Beall, and other citizens of 

'Vashington County, Pennsylvania, for the repeal of the second sec- tion of the act of June 6, 1872, which made a reduction of 10 per 

pent. in certain jinties, and al~o re~onstrating against an increase of 

internal ta.xe , and a restoration of the duty on tea and coffee, to the 

Committee on Ways and Means. 

By Mr. NEGLEY: The petition of James Laughlin, jr., and otheTs, 

of Pitt burgh, Pennsylvania, for the appointment of a commission of 

inquiry as to the results of the tmffic in alcoholic liquors, to the Committee on Way and 1\Ieans. By Mr. NES~llTH : Sundry memorials and petitions of the Legislature and p ople of Oregon and Idaho, in favor of aid in the construction of the Portland, Dalles and Salt Lake H.ailroad, to the Committee on Railways and Canals. 

By Mr. SENER: Papers relating to the claim of St. Mary' chmch, 

of E1:edericksburgh, Virginia, for the destruction of property during 

the war, to the Committee on War Claims. 

By fr. S:\llTH, of Pennsylvania : The petition of the Columbia 

National Bank of P ennsylvania: to be indemnified for the destruction 

of the Columbia bridge on the 28th of June, 1 ,33, by order of :MajorGeneral Couch, to the Committee on War Claims. 

By Mr. SOUTHARD : The petition of citizens of Licking County, 

Obio, J'or the repeal of the second section of the act of June 6, 1 72, 

which made a reduction of 10 per cent. in certain dutie , to the Committee on Ways and Means. 

By Mr. SW .ANN: The petition of citizens of Baltimore, Iaryland, 

of simiJa;r import, to the Committee on Ways and Means. 

Also, the petition of Louisa Sheckels, for compensation as an employ6 

in t he United States secret service during the ln.te war, to· the Committee on Military .Aifairs. 

By Mr. TOWNSEl\TJ) : The petition of the Penn's Grove Monthly 

Meeting of the Society of Friend , of Che ter County, Pennsylvania, 

for the appointment of a commi ion of inquiry concerning the alcoholic liquor troffic, to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

By Mr. VANCE : The petition of citizens of North Carolina, fur n. post-route from Murphy to Elia M. Kilpatrick's, in Cherokee County, 

North Cru:olina, to the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

IN SENAT.fiJ. 

WED.NESDAY, February 18, 1874. 

Prayer by Rev. E. D. OWEY, of W::tshingt'On. 

On motion of Mr. MORTON, and by unanimous consent, the reading 

of the Journal of yesterday's proceedings was dispensed with. 

EXECUTIVE COi'IIMUNICATION. 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpore laid before the Senate a message from 

the President of the Unite.d States, transmitting a communication of 

the Secretary of State, accompanying a copy of the report of Mr. John 

M. Thacher, who was appointed in June last as a delegate to repreent the United States at the international congress which was held 

at Vienna in August, 1873, for the consideration of the question of the 

protection of patents; which was ordered to lie on the table, and be 

printed. PETITIO~S AND IE:~10RIAL . 

The PRE IDENT pro tempore. The Chair lays before the Senate a communication by telegraph from the common council, Board of Trade, 

and Chamber of Commerce of Cincinna.ti, protesting against the discontinuance of work on the public building of that city. The telegram 'Yas received several days ago, and by accident mislaid on the 

table. It will be referred to the Committee on Public Buildings and 

Grounds, if there be no objection. 

The PRESIDENT pro te;rn,pore presented r esolutions of the Legislature of Kansa , charging misconduct on the part of the Union Pa-cific 

Railroad Company; which was referred to the Committee on Railroads. 

He also pre ented a resolution of the Legislature of the State of 

Iowa,. relative to improving the Fox and Wisconsin Rivers; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce. 

He ::t:l o presentee! a memorial of the Legi lature of Montana Terri- tory, in relation to the protection of citizens of Deer Lodge and Missoula Counties; which was referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

He also presented the memorial of stockholders of the Wisconsin 

Central Railway Company, praying that the time :fixed for the com- pletion of their road be extendeu; which was referred to the Committee on Pu ulic Lands. 

Mr. KELLY. I pre ent the petition of J. F. Boyer a.nd 176 others, citizens ofWa hington Territory, prayin.K for the passage of the Portland, Dalles and Salt Lake Railroad bill. In pre enting this petition, I simply w:ish to call attention to the object expressed in it. 

The e gentlemen repre ent that they are living in a very i olated 

condition, remote from all the railroad systems of the United States, 

and they simply ask Congress to pa s a bill giving to that company a sum of money which will be barely sufficient to carry the mails and 

the military supplies of tbe country, and for which they state in their 

petition that the company will be willing to tmnsport not only the 

mails, but the troops and military supplies, and supplies for the IndianDepartment, in perpetuity, for all time to come. They show many reasons why the prayer of this petition should be grante<.l. I move its reference to the Committee on Railroads. The motion was agreed to. l\Ir. TIPTON presented tho petition of J. H. Humphries and other 
1580 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

soldiers, asking for an equalizat ion of bounties; which was refelTed 

to the Committee on Military Affairs. 

Mr. SUMNER presented t he petitio?- of W. H. W~ and other 

citizens of Boston, Massachusett.s, praymg for the apporntment of a commission of inquiry concerning the alcoholic liquor traffic, it 

relations to pauperism, crime, the public health, and general welfare; 

which was ordered to lie on the table. 

Mr. BOUTWELL presented the petition of Ephraim Fairbanks, 

Charles A. Wright, ~nd other citizens ~f !'Valth~, ¥as achuse~t, 

praying for the appomtment .of a co~s1on of mq~ry co~cernrng 

the alcoholic liquor traffic, Its r elatiOns to paupensm, cnme, the 

public health, and general welfare; which was ordered to lie on the 

table. 

Mr. SARGENT. I present, by request from the Legislative As em- bly of Utah, they havincr no representation on 1.his floor, a memorial 

to the Senate and House ~f Representatives, reciting that tc t he Legis- lative Assembly of the Territory of Utah respectfully represent that 

whereas a large majority of the people of this Territory are accu ed 

of disloyalty, insubordination, and other violations of the Constjtution a,nd l aws of the United States; and wher eas the e accusatiOns are absolutely untrue, and are made with malicious _intent t? pro nre proscriptive legislation by Congress, therefore, berng anxious that 

legislation if upon thorough investigation any should be deemeq nece - sary shouid be such as will conduce to the greate t good of all, we esp~ctfully and earnestly solicit your honorable body to send to Utah a commission of investigation, with instructions to inquire into the 

allecred abuses in our territorial affairs, and with authority to send for ers~ns and papers needed in the prosecution of their inquiry. And we fUrther respectfully ask your honorable body, for the protect~on of 

what we deem the best interests of the whole people of the Tern tory, 

to suspend all action, so far as special legislation for Utah is c~ncern~, 

until such time as said cominission shall have had opportumty tomvestigate and report. And for a course so conducive to wi e, and con- sequently beneficial, legislative action, we, your memorialists, will 

ever pray." . This is signed by Lorenzo Snow, president of the council; Orsor. 

Pratt, sr., speaker of the house of representatives ; and by every mem 

ber of the legi~lative council, as. I understand. I. IJ?-?Ve the reference 

of this memonal to the Committee on the Judimary, as they have measures relating to the same subject before t hem. 

The motion was agreed ·to. 

Mr. DEI\TNIS presented the petition of John Dix, James T. Daniel, 

\Villiam D. Thomas, and 78 other citizens of Maryland, praying for the 

establishment of a light-house on the shoal of Bishop's H ead, in that 

State · which was referred to the Committee on Commerce. 

Mr.' MITCHELL presented the petition of Isaac Dillan, W. L. 

Fletcher, and other c~ti~ens o~ Po!iland, Or~gon, praying. fo~ the 

appointment of. a coilliDISswn ~f rnq~yconcernmg theal cohohc hquor 

traffic its relatiOns to paupensm, cnme, the pubhc health, and gen- eral w'elfare; which was ordered to lie on the table. 

Mr. PRATT presented the l'etition of John Akley and the petition 

of James L. Delong, soldiers of the war of 1812, each praying to be 

allowed a pension; which were referred to t.he Committee on Pensions. He also presented the petition of Elizabeth Howard, widow of 

Thomas H. Howard, praying to be allowed a pension; which was referred to the Committee on Pensions. 

Mr. SCOTT. I present the memorial of the Board of Trade <?f Philadelphia, protesting againsb the pa~age ~y the Senate of a bi)l that 

has just passed the House of Representatives for the lease to l\fe ~rs . 

Dupont & Co., of Wilmington, Delaware, of the "Old Lazaretto" sLte, near Penrose Ferry Bridge, on the bank of the river Schuylkill, Philadelphia, for a powder magazine, setting forth that that site is with_in 

half a Inile of the new navy-yard at League Island, and the same dis- tance from the wharves, docks, depot building , railroad terminus, and grain elevator of the new Europe~ line o~ steamships; 3Jl_d setting forth also the ~angerons pr~xun~ty of this .powder magazme ~o 

other important busmess enterpnses m the neighborhood of Philadelphia. I believeth~ bill in this ca e has bee?- refe_n:ed to the Committee on Military Affarrs; and I move that this petitiOn be refened 

to the same committee. The motion wa-s agreed to. 

Mr. SCOTT. I also pre ent the petition of the Wholesale Grocers' 

Association of Philadelphia, P ennsylvania, upon the same subject, 

protesting against the passage of that bill. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The memorial will be referred to 

the same committee. · lli. SCOTT also presented a petition of citizens of Birmin~ham, 

Huntingdon County, P ennsylvania, deprecating the restoration of 

the duty on tea and coffee or the revival or increase of internal taxe , 

and praying for the repeal of section 2 of the a-ct of June 6, 1872 ; 

which wa-s referred to the Committee on Finance. 

lli: CONKLING. I present the petition of David Klein, reciting 

that he is a patentee under a foreign government of an invention 

touchinO' pontoon bridges, which have been manufactured here and 

used, an°d be thinks the Government owes him for them. Although 

this is a claim, I think it hacl bette1· go to the Comlnittee on Military 

Affairs. 

The PRESIDENT JYI'O temp01·e. The petition will be so refeiTed. 

Mr. HAGER presented a concurrent resolution of the Legislature 

of California, in favor of an amendment to the Constitution of the 

United State , providing that Senators may be elected by a direct vote 

of the people; which was refened to the Committee on Privileges and 

Elections, and ordered to be printed. 

He all:!o presented a concurrent re olution of .the Legislature of California, r elative to land granted the Stockton and Copperopolis Rail- road; which was r eferred to the Committee on Public Lands, and 

ordered to be printed. 

PAPERS WITllDR.AW:X AND REFE RRED. 

On motion of Mr. BORE~L\N, it was 

Ordered, That. the petition and papers of William B. Matchett be taken from the 

file and referred to the Committee on Claims. 

On motion of :Ur. BOREM.A.t.~, it was 

Ordared, That the petition and papers of the hPirs of James P. McKee be taken from the files and refurred to the Commit"o£e on Claim!!. 

REPORTS OF CO:\:OITTTEES. 

:Mr. PRATT, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was r eferred 

the memorial of A. M. Wilson a Cherokee Indian, asking pay for 

property taken by the Federal t roops for the u e of the Army in the 

year 1 62, submitted an adver e report thereon; which was ordered 

to be printed., and the committee was discharged from the further con ideration of the memorial. 

1\lr. PRATT al o, from the Commibtee on Claims, to whom was re- ferred the petition of J es e Connell and Barrett S. Johnston, praying 

to be allowed the sum of 4,265.30 for corn fmnished for the use of the 

Army in 1 62, payment for which was r efu eel by reason of non-performance of contract, submitted an ad verse report thereon, which was ordered to be printed, aml the committee wa eli charged from the 

further consideration of the p etition. 

Mr. SCOTT, from the Committee on Claims, to whom wa referred 

the petition of P. W. Whitcomb, praying compensation for services renuered as clerk of the first cla s while employed as laborer in the 

office of the Auditor of the Treasury for the Post-Office Department, 

from October 1, 1866, to April 1, 1872, submitted an advm'se report 

thereon; which wa aaopted and ordered to b e printed. 

~lr. SCOTT also, from the same committee, to whom was referreu the petition of Thomas B. Wallace, praying compensation for property destroyed by the Army under order from the military com- mander in 1861, submitted a report, accompanied by a bill (S. No. 

507) for the relief of Thomas B. \Vallace, of Lexington, in the Sta.t.e of Mis ouri. 

The bill was r ead, antl passed to a secondreailing, and the report" as ordered to be printed. 

:Mr. D.A. VIS, from the Committee on CL<tims, to whom wa-s r efened 

the bill (S. No. 53) for the r elief of Mary E. Purnell, reporteu acl- ver ely thereon, aud the bill was postponed indefinitely. , 

Mr . .1\illRRL"\ION, from the Committee on Claims, to whom wa!! re- ferred the p etition of citizens of Cass County, Ind.iana, pra.ying 1,hat 

the umof $409.87, unjustly collected of Andrew Johnson as taxe~S on spirits, may be refunded, reported a bill (S. No. 50 ) for the relief of 

Andrew Johnson, of Logansport, Indiana; w .hioh was read, and passed 

to a seconu r eailing. 

1\lr. MITCHELL, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred the petition of Heruy A. Peeler, praying for relief for moneys auvanceu to the United States consul at l\Iatamoras, Mexico, and 

expondetl for the relief of refugee Union men, submitted an adverse r eport thereon; which was auopted and ordered to be printed. 

Mr. CLAYTON, from the Committee on Milita,ry Affairs, to whom wa referred a memorial of the Legislature of the State of Arkansa ·, in favor of the dispo al of the Fort Smith reservation in that State 

and the dedication of another portion thereof to the city of :F'ort 

Smith for the benefit of the common schools of aid city, reported a bill (S. No. 509) to withhold from sale a portion of the :F'ort Smith 

military re ervation, in the State of Arkansa-s, and 'to pre cribe th~ 

manner in which the remainuerof such reservation shall be sold, anu . for other purpo e ; which wa r ead, and p ed to a second r eailing. H also, from the arne committee, to whom were r eferred the bill 

(S. No. 239) to withhold from sale a portion of the Fort Smith military re ervation in Arkansa , and for other purposes, and the bill ( . No. 3G2) donating the military reservation of Fort Smith to the city of 

Fort Smith, Arkansas, for free schools, moved that t hey be po tponed 

indefinitely; which was agreed to. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the petition of the mayor and common council of the city of :F'ort Smith, 

p:caying that the Inilitary r servation at that pbce be donated to that 

city for the use of schools, a ked to be dis ·hargetl from the further 

consideration of the petition ; which was .agreed to. 

CO~TDE:\L.~D CA.:'iXOX FOR :MO~UMENTAL PURPOSES. 

Mr. LOGAN. The Committ e on l\Iilitary Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 821) donating condemned cannon and cannon-balls to the posts of the Grand Axmy of the Republic, of 

Philadelphia, for monnmenta.l purposes, have had the same under 

consideration, and have instructed me to report it back with amendments, au.d if there is no objection I ask that it be passed now. It is 

merely disposing of orne condemned cannon. 

The PRESIDE .... T pTo ternpore. The Chair understands the com- mittee to report this bill for the first time. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1581 I 

. "'. 

Mr. LOGAN. It is a House bill, reported with amendments. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o ternpc1rc. The Senate has received no such 

bill from the House, as the Cha.ir is informed. It can be treated as a new Senate bill just reported, and put on the Calendar or pas ed. 

Mr. LOGAN. I beg pardon of the Cha.ir. It was referred to the 

committee as a House bill. I do not know how it got there. The 

amendments were made in committee, a.nd I was ordered to report 

the bill back with amendments, including two other associations besides those named in the bill. I do not know how it got before our 

committee. Mr. SARGENT. It may be a IIouse bill that has not passed the 

House. It may be merely printed. 

Mr. LOGAN.· How did it get before our committee, then 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpore. It had better be treated as a Senate 

bill. 

Mr. LOGAN. Very well. 

The bill (S. No. 510) donating condemned cannon and cannon-balls 

to the posts of the Grand Army of the Republic of Philadelphia, and 

other associations, for monumental purposes, was read twice, and con- sidered as in Committee of the Whole. 

It authorizes the Secreta.ry of War to deliver, if the same can be 

done without detriment to the Government, four condemned cannon and sixteen cannon-balls to e:wh of the following-named organizations, 

for the purpo e of ornamenting burial grounds of deceased soldiers: To the po ·t numbered two, Grand .Army of the Republic, of PhiladelJ1bia, Pennsylva.nia; to the post numbered five, Grand . .Army of the Republic, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; to the post numbered six, Grand 

.ArmyoftheRepublic,of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; to the post num- bered seven, Grand .Army of the Republic, Philadelphia, Pennsy 1 vania; 

to the po t numbered eight, Grand Army of the Republic, of Philadelphia, P ennsylvania; to the post numbered ten, Grand Army of the 

Republic, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ; to the post numbered sev- enty-one Grand Army of the Republic, of Philadelphia, P ennsylvania; 

to the po~t numbered nineteen, Grand Army of the Republic, of Philadelphia, P ennsylvania; to the corporate .authorities of the town of 

Winterport, State of Maine ; and to t he Soldiers' Monument Association of Henderson County, State of lllinois. 

lli. SARGENT. I understood by some mean -1 had it in my mind 

during the la-st Congress-that the number of our condemned cannon was getting very small; that the equisitions for these purposes b ad 

been very large upon the amount at the disposal of the Government, and 

that it was quite questionable whether any more ought to be granted. I have no doubt the chairma.n of the Committee on 1\.lilitary Affairs 

is well informed on this matter; but I should like to know whether 

there is any foundation for such belief, and if the quite large amount 

donated by this bill can be well spared. 

Ir. LOGAN. I do not know. I have made no inquiry a.bout it. 

The bill does not require them to be given unless they can be spared. 

It is a mere matter of discretion with the Secretnry of War, and I did 

not inquire whether he ha.d them to spare or not. 

Mr. ANTHONY. I think it would be very proper for us to give the cannon for this purpose, whether we have them to spa.re or not, even if we have to go to the expense of a. new cannon for every one that 

is donated for a purpose of that kind. 

Mr. SARGENT. This provides for condemned cannon. Are we to 

manufacture cannon and condemn them for this operation 

Jt.Ir. ANTHONY. I would not manufacture and condemn them, but 

I would give all the condemned cannon. , Mr. LOGAN. Condemned cannon are of no value in the world 

except the price of the iron, and if we do not ha.ve them on band, of 

coun;e they are not to be distributed. The matter is left to the discretiun of the Secretary of W a.r, if he has the cannon to spare. The bill was reported to the Sena.te without amendment, ordered 

to be engrossed for a third reading, read the third time, and passed. 

BILLS INTRODUCED. 

Mr. ANTHO~Y (at the request of Mr. Emrum>s, detained by illness) 

asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a. bill 

(S. No. 511) for the relief of Jacob M. Smalley; which was read t-wice 

by its title, and~ with the accompanying petition, referred to the Committee on Naval Affairs. 

1\Ir. CARPENTER asked, and by unanimous consent o btaiued~ leave 

to introduce a. bill (S. No. 512) to extend the time for completing the 

Wisconsin Centml Railroad in Wisconsin; which wa.s read twice by 

its title, re-ferred to the Committee on Public La.nds, a.nd ordered to 

be printed. 

Mr. KELLY a.sked, and by unanimous consent obtained, lea.ve to 

introduce a bill ( S. No. 513) to provide for a certaining losses su t.ained 

by citizens of Southern Oregon and Northern California by rea-son of 

Indian depredations in 1 72 anc11873; which was read twice by its 

title, and referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs. 

Mr. HAGER asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to 

introduce a bill (S. No. 514) granting to the Sierra Iron Company a 

ri~J;lt of way through the public lands for a ra.ilroad and telegraph; 

which was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on Railroa.ds, aud ordered to be printed. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN asked, and byunn,nimous- consent obtained, 

leave to introduce a bill (8. No. 515) to change the time for holding 

the terms of the United States circuit court for the southern district 

of Alabama; which was read twice by its title, and, with the aceom-

/ 

panying papers, referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, anc.l 

ordered to be printed. 

lli. HOWE asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to 

introduce a bill (S. No. 516) to further amend the la.ws grantinghome teacl rights to h onorably dischru·ged soldiers and sailors, their 

,..,-idows and orphan children; which was read tl'.vice by its title, r e- ferr d to the Committee on Public Lands, n,nd ordered to be printed. 

PRE ID;E"NTIAL APPROVALS. 

Ames ·age from the President of the nited States, by I\Ir. 0. E. BABCOCK,. his ecretary, announced that the Pre. ident bad, on the 7th 

instant, approved and signed the act (S. No. 216) to change the name of the pleasure-yacht Fearless; and, on the 11th instant, the a-ct (S. No. 

194) in relation to the monument erected to the memory of the Chevalier de Ternay. 

CENTE~~LA.L EXHIBITIO ""· 

Mr. CAMERON. I desire to give notice that to-morrow morning, 

after the business of the morning hour has been ~one through with, 

I shall move to take up the House bill in regard to the centennial 

exhibition. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. In tha.t connection I desire to remind 

the honora.ble Senator and the Senate that, as soon as the subjectmatte!; now before the Senate pas es from its con ideration, the Committee on A. ppropria,tions will feel bound to urge upon the consideration of the enate the na.v.al appropriation bill, reported orne ten or fifteen days :lgo, and of which they gave notice at that time. 

fr. CAThiERO:N. I am sure my friend from l\faine will not interfere 

with my taking up this bill during the morning hour. That will not 

interfere with the other bill, I trust. ~Ir. l\fORRILL, of Maine. I shall endeavor, out of the greatest 

possible feeling of courte y to my honorable friend, not to interfere 

with his bill unnece '::t.rily ; but I wish to take due caution that his 

bill does not interfere with mine. ~Iv honorable friend has such facility for getting before the Senate matters that he desires, that he 

needs to be watched. 

Mr. CAMERON. I ha.ve now given notice of what I sha.ll attempt 

to do to-morrow. 

fr. IORRILL of Maine. In the morning bour f 

Mr. C.A.l\fERON. In the morning hom·. _ 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. That will not interfere with my bill. 

LIQD~R-TRA FFIC CO:\DIISSION. 

The PRESIDENT 1J?'O nt1~ore. If there be no further morning 

business the Secretary will r eport the Calendar. The first bill on the Ca.lendar was the bill (S. No. 1G1) to provide 

for the appointment of a commission on the subject of the alcoholic 

liquor traffic; which was considered as in Committee of the Whole. 

The Committee on Finance reported the bill with an amendment, 

to strike out all after the enacting clause and insert the following in 

lieu thereof: 

That. there sbnU be appointed b.v the President, by and with the advice and con- sent of the Senate, a com mis ion of fi vo persons, neither or whom shall be the holder of any office of yrofit or trust in the ~neml or a State government. The said com. missioners shal be selected olely with reference to personal fitness and capacity for an honest, impartial, and thoronghinvestiO'ation, and sha~ hold otlicelmtil their duties shall be n.ccomplished, but not to excee'a one year. It shall be their duty to investigate the alcoholic liquor traffic in its economic, criminal, moml, anu scientific aspects, in connection with pauperism, crime, social vice, the public health, and g'eneml welfure of the people; and alao inquire and ta.ke testimony as to the prac- tical r e ults of license andre trictive legislation for the prevention of intemperance in the e>eral 'tates. SEc. 2. That the s:rid commi . ioners shall serve without salary; shall be author. izetl to emplo.r a secretary at a r easonable compensation, not to exceed$2,000 per year, which, with the nece sary expenses incidental to said investigation, of both the secret::try and commi sioners, shall be paid out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, upon vouchers to be approved by the ecretary of the Treasury; aml the amountnecessaryisherebyappropriated. It shall bethefurther tluty of said colUIDissioners to rPport tho resu'it of their investigation, and the ex- penses attending the same, to the President,. t~ be by him transmitted to Congress. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempoTe. The question is on the amendment. 

Mr. 'ERRY, of Connecticut. Mr. President, I did not interpo e the other morning in order to prevent the immediate consideration of this 

bill, but only bec::m e I wished whenever the bill should be acted upon 

by the Senate to have a ooll of the yeas a.nd nays. 

The bill is in accordance, in its character, with the t endency of the 

time , the gathering into the Federal jurisdiction of all State func- tions and all matters of State p.olice. As being of that chara-cter, I am opposed to it, and I consider it my dnty whenever any of the e measures, which have been so frequent for the past few years, shall 

be brought to the consideration of t he Senate, at least to interpose so fru· as to ask the Sena.te to take thought , hat they are doing, and 

before the precedents in this direction become more numerou . We are to make inves~igatiou with regard to a traffic in connection 

with "p::mperism, crime, social vice, public health, ~eneral welfare," 

matters which, in the very theory of our system, belOng to the functions of tho State , are there best considered, anu there mea-snres best 

calculated to be adopted to promote the opposite of the evils which 

:ue apprehended from the traffic ought to be inquired after. 

There are a great many petitions on our table in reference to thiR 

subject, and a king for this commis ion. They are petition , as a whole, fTom the be t and purest .mimlell of the citizens of the United 

State , who mean right, who mean the welfare of humanity, who 

de ire to promote virtue, but who, in their anxiety to bring about 

these great r esult"!, fail to eon ider that, in the mode in which t hfly 
1582 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

are pursuing them, they may be in danger of inflicting even fundamental evils upon om whole system of society. 

Now, sir, all that I ask is that when the question is taken upon this 

bill it may be taken by yea-s a.ud n:tys. I want to record my vote 

against. every bill of the tendency which I consider is attached to 

this bill, and to which I have alluded. 

Mr. WRIGHT. Mr. President, I have no disposition to discus!!! the 

question at all. I do not understand whether my friend put hi objection on the ground of want of power on the part of Congre s to pass 

such a bill as this, or upon the ground of expediency. I submit that we are here to legislate for the public welfare. I submit that the 

Constitution of the United States wn,s given to us for the life of the 

nation, n.nd not for it death. I submit that it is :1 charter of life, 

and not a charter of death. I submit that this Congre sis in the line 

of its duty when it i~ collecting material that shall MSist ns to legislate for the public welfare. If it be true that prosperity and happiness, and good society and ordflr and quiet, are better n,s promotive of 

this national life, are better as promotive of this general welfare, than 

pauperism and crime and social evil, then we are but in the line of our duty when we pass this bill. We are asked to do so, as has been suggested, by the best and purest minds of this land and nation. It i a simple commission of inquiry to report to us the facts and the statistics as they shn,ll gather them; and when they shall be before us we are to determine what legislation shall follow, if any. 

There are many reasons why it is proper and just in my judgment 

thn,t we should have this report. • There never has been such a genern,l report to Congress. We need it in connection with our r evenu laws; we need it for numberless reasons t;hat I shall not now attempt 

to point out. I suggest thn,t there is no constitutional difficulty. I 

suggest that this is demanded by the best men of the land. I uggest 

that this is demanded by the best intere ts of the nation. 

Ur. CONKLING. Did this bill give rise to the objection or to the 

consideration mentioned by the Senator from Connecticut, I should 

feel bound to pause before voting for it. Without going into a general statement of my rea ons, I make one r emark in reply to the Senator from Connecticut. The whole function of the bill is to institute an inquiry, nothing more. Obviously the Senate, like every parliamentary body, has a right, for purposes of legislation, to inform itself. It bas a right to make inquiry touching any matter or thing in re- spect of which it needs information; and no limit, no boundary to 

this power, or to its proper exercise, oc.curs t me rmtil you come to a case of private character and private right ; in such a ca-se you may 

violate the true principles of const itutionn,l liberty, as I fear t he e principles have been violated sometimes by one or the other of the 

Houses of Congress. When, however, you are inquiring in the abstra-ct, inquil:ing for general information merely, whether it is more or less likely to be useful, as a question of power, I submit to the 

Senator from Connecticut thero can be no doubt of the absolute prerogative of this or any other parliament:1ry body. How does this inquiry differ from the ordinary inquiries continually directed by resolut,ions; which are mn,tters of comse ¥ Simply in 

the fact that it intrusts the inquiry to persons not members of this 

body. It authorizes the creation of a commission, which is to serve wit.hout hire or reward, except that paid to its secretary. It provide 

that this commission shall proceed to obtn,in certain information. I 

cannot see how such a bill can be, in the estimation of my honorable 

friend from Connecticut, one of tho e, of which I admit there :1re 

many, open to the doubt he expresses. If we can inquire by a com- mittee of om own, we can inquire in the way now proposed. If the 

information will not fall in its practical use within any field of legislation, then the inquiry in one sense would be icUe and superfluous. 

But that does not touch the question of our power to make it. But 

iu fact every man must ee, whether his attention has been specially 

directed to the evils of intemperance or not, that the facts aimed 

at are many-sided, useful in all directions in augmenting thn,t fund 

of knowledge on which we must rely in di creet, conservative, and 

wholesome legjslation. 

l\Ir. FERRY, of Connecticut. Only a word. Iu theremark which 

I made a few moments ago I was careful not to deny the power of 

Congress to enact a law of this kind. I stated my oppo ition to be ba ed upon the t endency developed in this bill, similar to t he tendency 

exhibited in many similar bills and fully developed in others, of 

drawing those subject which appropriately are mthin the jurisdiction 

of the States into the cognizance of the Federal Government. I 

wished to meet that tendency in the outset, for the bill is basel! upon 

the multitudinous petitions which have been laid upon our table , a-sking us to creat,e a commission of tbis kind, the re nlt of who e inquiry was anticipated to be the enactment of a law by Congre 

regulating or prohibiting the alcoholic tmffic.in the country, :1 matter 

which I believe at present nearly every Senator would say belong 

especially to the State jmisdiction. I ay "nearly every Senator,' 

for I have heard Senators argue upon this floor tbat by the fomteenth 

amendment to the Constitution the Congre s of the United t...'ttes, 

without the previous a-ction or non-action of any State, is empowered 

to enact any law for the protection of life, o1·liberty, or property, 

and the Senator on my left [1\.fr. SCHURZ] sugge ts "orforthe pmsuit 

of happiness." That was substn,ntially the claim that was made here 

upon another bill, and the pa,ssage of that bill in the constitutional 

aspect was urged upon us upon the constitutional theory which I 

have mentioned. According to the argument made when that bill 

was before the Senate, we :11·e empowered by the f ourteenth amendment to enact such a law as the petitioners have asked for upon whose 

npplication this preliminary bill of inquiry hn.s been brought into tbo 

Senate. 

I would say to the Senator from N'ew York, it is not becau e I c1i -

cern the want of power to pass this particular bill, but in reference to the e as aults upon the Constitution, which have become, as I sail!, so frequent of late years, the safe t rule, in my judgment, is obsta p1·incipiis j and that is the reason why I desire the yeas amlnays upon the 

pre ·ent bill, to record my vote against it. 

:h'Ir. TIPTON. I remember that there is a tendency in t he country on the part of the people of the States to legislate on this que tion- the 

traffic in intoxicating liquor ; and there is :1 t endency t o legislate in t he direction of prohibition as to the sale- perhaps not at the present timu as to the manufacture. I remember that the General Government is 

collecting perhaps $90,000,000 as revenue from intoxicating liquors in 

the United States. Under these circumstances I can very easily see the propriety of an investigation in which the Government is interested, and in which the people of the States are interested ; and shn,ll 

vote accordin~ly for the investigation. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. 1\Ir. President, I am so much in sympathy with the general object of this bill that I should he itate to raise 

any question of authority in this investiga ion unle it were very 

obvious. This bill propm~es "to investigate the liquor traffic, in it.s economic, criminal, moral, and scientific aspects, in connection with 

pauperism, crime, social vice, the public health, n,nd general welfare of the people." I agree with the Senn.ter from Connecticut that most 

of these subject~ peculiarly belong to the p eople of the Stn,tes, are within their province, and more intimately relate to the people of the 

StDtes. At the same time it is pretty obvious that some of the r elations of the !blcoholic traffic touch the legislation in which we are from time to time engaged, such as the levying of ta~e and the like; 

and therefore I can ee tnat the Congre s of the United States might 

very well be employed in the investigation of the traffic in alcoholic 

liquors, in which the Government at the present time, tmder its policy, 

is so large and potential an agent, in its relations to pauperism, crime, 

and the general welfare of the country at large. 

But, Mr. President, I desire to make this observation in regard to 

this clns of investigations: I think they are, a a general proposition, a fail me. They are unreliable; they are unsati factory; anu it seems to me that they are a clepn,rtme from the usual methods adopted 

by Congress to prepare itself for its own legislation. It is obvious enough that all this information can be gathered through several of 

the standing committees of this body w.ith very much le s expen e, 

with the same facilit y which any commi siou would have, and ver much more reliable than cn,n be expected under the terms of this bill. 

If the Committee on Finance had the leisure, and would adopt the necessary measures to inquil'e into t.his subject themselves, they would 

probably be able to produce very much more s:tti~factory results to 

the Senate of the United States than can be expected from a com- mission such a-s this bill contemplates. What do we expect from this bill f It authorizes the appointment of three commissioners, neither of 

whom is to be an officer of· the General or of a State government. 

That is well enough, so that they shall be under no influence of au official character from either. They are expected to be competent 

men, I suppose, to iuve tigate thi subject; and they are to be asked 

to do it without any cornpensn,tion whatever. Does anybody suppose we are likely to get any very valuable service in that direction Doe n,nybody know of a mn,n anywhere so out .of employment, so in lack 

of employment, so patriotic, or so devoted to these ubjects, that he, 

for a whole year, as contemplated by this bill, can devote himself 

assiduously to them, or who could be really expected to devote himself as iduouslyto this duty, so that at the enct.of the twelvemonths we should have anything h ere as the result of this commi sion that 

would be valuable to us V I ha:nUy think we h:tve any right to expect 

any such thing as that; and, on the other hand, I hardly think it is quite becoming for Congres , who assume that this is a matter of so much ilnportance a to rai e a commission upon, to ask geutlem n of 

character and respectability and intelligence to do it a a matter of 

favor to Congres , or of grace to the .American people, or a a contribution of any de cription whatever, without compen ation. ~Ir. SHERMAN. If my friend will allow me, I will say that those 

who represent both side of this question-because there are two sides to it-have desired and urged that this commission should be without 

compensation. The Committee on Finance heard gentlemen of an- tagonistic views on the question, not only the manufacturers of spir- ituous liquors and the manufacturers of beer, but al o tho e who be- lieved that all such manufacture should be prohibited. Both itles desire that the commi sion should serve without pay. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I am not going to argue the question. 

I only make an objection which i in the line of the general objection 

I hn,ve to all the e commissions. We have committees of the ,'enn,te, 

committee of the House, whose busine sit is to fmnish us with the 

evidence and the fa-ct , to enable us to act understandingly on matters 

that are brought before Congress. We should confine om·selves to 

them. If this is outside of that, and we wish to enlighten the general sense of the community without any reference to legislation, that 

is another thino-; but upon the assumption that we intend to gather 

information to lflgi.,late upon, then I think it belongs to the standing 

committees of the Senate. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1583 

My object in rising, however, was, more than anything else, to suggest t hat there should be a. limitation of the expense of this iuqrury. 

The bill provides that, while the commissioners shall serve wilihout 

salary, they shall be authorized to employ a secretary at :1 reasona]Jle 

compensation, not to exceed 2,000 a year, and that all the necessru7 

expenses incidental to such investigation, of both the secretary and 

commissioners, shall be paid out of any money in the Treasury not 

otherwise appropriated, on vouchers to be approved by the Secreta.ry 

of the Treasury. It is a little unusual to make an appropriation of 

money so unlimited and unrestricted, and on so uncertain a basi . I 

would, therefore, ask the Senator who has the bill in charge whether 

it is not pmcticn,ble for him to name some sum within which the 

expense will probably fall 

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no objection, if the Senn,tor from Maine will 

mention some sum. I think a sum might be mentioned. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Mn,ine. I would mention the sum of 10,000. 

Mr. ·wRIGHT. I have no objection to that. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I would have no objection to double 

that, if it wn,s necessary. I shall be glad if we get off with twice ten 

thousand dolla.rs. 

Mr. WRIGHT. Do I understand the Senator from Mn.ine to moYe 

an amendment T 

Mr. MORRILL, of l\bine. I shall be very happy if it can be brought 

within 10,000. I mention that s~m. If any gentleman chooses to name a lower sum, very well. 

Mr. WRIGHT. Where would the Senn,tor propose his amendment 

to come in'f 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. On the eighth line of the second s ction, 

.after the word "amount," insert "not to exceed 10,000." 

Mr. CONKLING. Unless I interrupt the Senator from Maine, I 

fmggest that we had better say $5,000 than $10,000. Tbe Senator 

from l\bine seems to wonder that anybody is willing, without com- pensn,tion, to perform such a service; he asked whether persons cau be found to give their time for nothing 'f I know such men. I can name many among my own constituents, men who, like Mr. Bergh, 

l'without money, and without price," are willing to devote a large 

part of their live to the good of their fellow-men. Snch men wn.nt no pecuniary compensu,tion; they want nothing in this bill that looks 

like it. There is a provision that the secretn,ry i to be paid not to 

exceed 2,000 a year. No other expenses are involved, except those of printing. When they come to print, whether the printing shall be done at the Government Printing Office, or done upon their own order, will be a quest,ion; and to provide for that, it might be >ery 

well to add $3,000, which would be $5,000 in all. I think of no other 

expense. 

Mr. SHERMAN. Traveling. 

l\1r. CO:NKLING. They do not want traveling expenses. l\Ir. SAULSBURY. Allow me to suggest that it is provided in the 

bill that the commissioner may "also inquire and take testimony as to the practical results of license and restrictive legislation for the 

prevention of intemperance in the several States." That, I suppose, 

would lead to incurring expense. 1\Ir. CONKLING. What sort of expense does the Senator mean 'f 

Witness fees f 

1\Ir. SAULSBURY. Certainly; the tn,king of testimony. 

Mr. CONKLING. That cannot be the design of this. If it i to go so fa.r as to enable them to bring witnesses by compulsion, to enforce 

the attendn,nce of witnesses by process, you must have machinery. The bill is wholly inadequate for such a purpose, and does not con- template it at all. It is not to be an inquisition, not a forcible proceeding, to drag men before this commission to testify, or by subpmna 

d1wes tecurn, to bring their books and papers. The idea is that tho e will be elected by the Pre ident who e condition in life will no doubt 

be such that they can afford to give, not perhaps, us the Senator from 

Maine suggested, a whole year, a solid twelvemonth, to the neglect of 

all other things, lmt so much time within a year as h::ill be neces ary 

to group together aud report the facts on both sides of the question 

of the use and traffic of liquor. 

Mr. FERRY, of Connecticut. Will the Senator from New York 

state what is the meaning of the phrase "take testimony " I agree 

with him, it does not imply compulsory process. Bnt does it not 

imply that they will take the testimony of persons who will volunteer to give their evidence on the one side or the other 

1\-Ir. CONKLING. I think the Sen'1tor :1nd I would agree if we were agTeed a-s to the meaning of "testimony." If he us s it in Hs 

technical sense, that the witnesses are to be sworn and examined 

and cross-examined, I do not so understand it. If he means testimony 

in the general sense-statements, documents, statistics, the l'ecord of 

courts, everything which goes to show the gain and lo , and all the 

effect of making, elling, and drinking spirit -I think it means thnt. 

But I submit that there is no occasion for any provision for expense 

except for tho secretary, :1nd a conditional provision, perhaps. If the 

printing hall be made by the commissioners, I would say 5,000; and 

if they want more, they can ask for it at the proper time. 

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. If the proposition is that these gentle- men shall sit in their offices and write essays on this subject, I can understand that no expense is to be incurred; but if, as this commi - sion contemplates, there is to be a thorough examination of the whole .subject in all the reln,tions which are specified in this bill; and if, 

cmoreover, they are to "inqui.re and take testimony as to the pra.ctica.] 

results of license and restrictive legislation for the prevention of intemperance in the several States"-if they intend to do all that, they are to travel all over this country. If hey do their duty man-fashion. 

if they do it with the slightest degree of fidelity, i£ they are to nc~ 

cumulate t estimony which will be of any consequence to the public 

interest in forming a public judgment or a public ense on this over- shadowing question of questions, they have got to go about; they hn,ve 

got to consider in my own State, for instunce-for they are directed to 

that end- what ha been the result of the l\laine 1'1w, what has been 

the result of the restrictive or prohibitory principle of the Maine law 

in that State, how it has operated, whether it has been a failure or a success, whether it is practicable or not; and testimony is contem-• 

plated to be taken on that very question, and as to the States that 

have adopted the license principle; and how about the movement that 

is in the W c t now, stir1ing some of those States very profounclly I 

perceh·e, and the legislation of those States, some of it restrictive, some of it prohibitory, some of it license. All of these things are to 

be examined, and no more interesting or important question can agitate the public at the present time than this identical question. 

And now the idea of forming a commission upon a subject so vast, so comprehensive, so far-reaching in many directions, and asking them 

to work without salary and without the payment of their expenses, 

their tuveling fees, and n,ll that, it seems to me is to belittle the whole 

thing, and to send them out under such circumstances that they will 

be expectecl _to do nothing more than write essays on this subject ou such theories anu speculn,tions as their individual observation may 

enable them to do. 

I hope, therefore, that not less than $10,000 will be appropriated in 

order to make this thing efficient; and I shall be greatly disappointed, 

if these men perform their duty at all in the sense in which I think 

this bill will direct them, i£ they do not pay out twice that much; 

and I would be willing to quadruple it if these men would perform 

the high duty which is implied in this. I should think if you appropriated out of the Treasury ·=-o,ooo or $100,000 for a thorough investigation of this whole subject, which should be wi e and thorough, no bettE?r service could be performed at this time for the American people. I should hope, therefore, if we do anything at all, we shall allow 

these men such :1 sum a will enable them to enter upon their duties 

with some proper idea of usefulness. 1\fr. SCUURZ. .Mr. PresidentThe PRESIDENT p?'O tempore. The morning hour havin(J' expired, 

the Senate resumes the consideration of the unfinished business. 

Mr. WRIGHT. If there is no disposition to debate this question further, I submit we may a well take the vote. 

1\Ir. SARGENT. If there is any hope of taking the vote soon I shall 

not object ; otherwise I shall have to object. 

Mr. \VRIG HT. I shall not insist if there is any clisposition to protract the debate. If there is no such disposition, let us take the vote. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I wish to sa-y something. 

fr. FLANAGAN. I feel the importance of this subject, and am dispo ~d to submit a few remarks upon it. I am in favor of the bill, 

but w1sh to speak to some extent. · 

1\Ir. WRIGHT. I will not press the request. 

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE. 

A. message from the Honse of ReprPsentatives, by Mr. LLOYD, its 

Chief Clerk, announced that the House had pa ed the following bills; 

in which tbe concurrence of the Senate was requested : 

A bill (H. R. No. 492) to make persons charged with crimes and 

offenses competent witne ses; 

A bill (H. R. No. 933) to provide for the holiling of terms of the 

di trict court of the United States for the western district of Missouri, at Springfield, in said State ; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1fi92) limiting the time for pro ·ecutions and con- victions in certain criminal offenses; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1593) relating to the punishment of the crime of 

manslaughter; 

A bill (H. R. No. 1594) for the punishment of extortion by officers or persons acting under the authority of the United States; 

A bill (H. R. No. 207G) to authorize the Secretary of the Treasury 

to discontinue the nse of the cutter Relief as a revenue-cutter, and use said vess"l for a boarding station in l\iobile Bay; and 

A. bill (H. R. No. 207 ) for the benefit of occupying claimants. The message further announced that the House had passed a resolution for printing five thousanll copies of the report of John W. Woodworth, supervising surgeon of the marine-hospital service, for the 

year 1873; in which the concurrence of the Senate was requested. 

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

The roes acre also announced that the Speaker of the Hou e hacl 

signed the following enrolled bills; and they were thereupon signed 

by the Pre ident pro tempore: 

A. bill (H. R. No. 1940) giving the consent of Congr s to the n,ccept- n.nce b James :McDonnell, a warrant officerin the United States Navy, 

of a pre ent from the King of Italy; 

A. btll (H. R. No.4 3) to authorize the cancellation of an export 

bonu for a portion of the distilled pirits of John S. 1\Iiller, on board 

of bonded cars of the United States; and 

A bill (H. R. No. 1041) for the relief of Robert N. Mdfillan, late 

collector of ·custoiDS and superintendent of lights for the district of 

Teche, iu the State of Louisiana. 
.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------~ 

1584 CONGRESSIONAL REOORDo FEBRUARY 18, 

NATIONAL-BA.l\"K CIRCULATIOX. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The bill (S. No. 432) to amend the 

act entitled ''.An act to provide for the redemption of the 3 per cent. temporary-loan certificates, and for an increase of national-bank 

notes," approved July 12, 1 70, is before the Senate as the unfilli heel 

business. · Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President, the Senator from Wisconsin on my left [Mr. HoWE] sugO'ested last night an amendment to the amendment of the honorable Senator from Pennsylvania, [~Ir. CAMERON.] 

I hold in my hand, and had then upon my desk, an amendment that 

precisely covers the case in point; and as all the amendments will, I 

suppose, go to the Committee on Finance in case the motion prevails 

to recommit the bill, I should like to have this amendment of mine 

read at the desk. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempcn·e. The Senator from :Michigan gives 

notice of an amendment which he intends to propose at a future stage 

of this bill, and a ks to have it read for information. It will be read 

if there be no objection. 

The Chief Clerk read a~ follows: 

Provided, That the Secretary of the Treasury shall retire and destroy one dollar in legal-tender notes for each and every addition:1l issue of bank-notes, either from 

the sale of bonds or the receipts from revenue. · 

:Mr. CHANDLER. 1.Ir. President, with that amendment, which I 

have no doubt my honorable friend from Pennsylvania will accept, I 

shall vote for his proposition; without t.hat, I shall not vote for it; 

and ~ propose as briefly a~ possible to give my reasons for the vote I 

shall cast upon this subject. I believe now, as I stated the other day, that the proposition I then 

suggested is entirely feasible aml desirable, to wit, to give notice of an early day when this nation will resume the payment of its note in coin. 

I believed then and I believe now that our bonds for 100,000,000 

could be negotiated and a favonble lou,n made that would enable 

us, with the accumulation of the coming yeu,r in our Treasury, to re ume absolutely at as early a day certainly as the 1st of July, 

1 75, or even as early as the 1st of January, 1875; and I likewise be- lieve that it would be the greatest mea,sure of relief ever offered to 

this nation, or that has been proposed, and that it would result in 

permanent benefit to all classes of people in all the States. But, sir, 

there seems to .be a sort of rabid mania u,gainst the name of coin on the part of certain pu,rties in t.his body; and although I deem my 

proposition entirely feasible, although I believe it could be carried 

out, and ought to be cah'ied out, I do not believe it can be carried 

at this time through this body; , and therefore I shall not press it at 

this time, but shall give my reasons for voting for the proposition I 

have just submitted, which is a step in the right direction. In 1 65 

I advocated upon this floor the substitution of bank-notes for green- hacks as a step toward the resumption of specie payments, and a rapid 

step toward that resumption. I am now simply advocating what I 

advocated then, to wit, the withdrawal of greenbacks and the ~mbstitntion of national-bank notes. 

:Mr. President, I have had a good dea1 of experience in the course of 

my life in panics and in crashes. .A.s a business man, I went through 

the panic ancl crash of 1837, of 1847, and of 1857 ; and although not 

actively engaged in business, I h..·we watched with great interest the 

crash and the pa.nic of 1873. 

Michigan has had a very vu,lua.hle experience in the way of inflation, 

of panics, and of failures. In 1836 the Legislature of Michigan, then :t young State of but one ye!Lr's growth, authorized the issue of what was known as the Michigan five-million loan. The negotiation of a Joan of $G,OOO,OOO by that young State was effected, and with the proceecls the State proposed to bn.ild three pu,rallellines of railroad from 

Lake Michigan to the eastern waters of the tate. It was nearly twenty 

years too early for all those roads to be built; but to-day every one of 

them is completed, and has been for years. .A.s the country grew, as ]10pnlu.tion increa ed, as wealth was accumulated, the necessity for 

the construction of those roads became apparent, and the capital of 

the people accomplished what the young Stu,te of Michigan failed to do. 

In 1 37, while these improvements were going on, there was a fa.il- ure on the pu,rt of the Morri Canal Banking Company, I think, to pay 

the five-million loan. They paid something over two millions, and sus- pended, and theStateof Michigan wasleftwithoutmoneyand without 

much credit. She had already negotiated $5,000,000. True, a portion 

of it had not been received, and she had not much credit to carry on these works; but the cry went forth, "Mme money; more money; 

the laboring c]a,sses must have more money; our internal improvements will stop unless we have more money." 

The State of Michigan undertook to furnish more money. She 

granted charters to a large number of State banks, such as the Bank 

of Pontiac, the Bank of Clinton, the Bank of .Ann Arbor, and so on-the 

number I cannot tell; but theydidnot furnish enough money. They 

wanted "more money;" and in order to make brief work, and the rem- edyefficient, she passed a general banking law, known aB the "wildcat law," authorizing everybody everywhere to start a bank and 

f-urnish more money. Well, sir, they started banks. There was the 

Farmers' Bank of Sandstone, the .Bank of Brest, the Bank of Gibraltu,r, and banks where there is nothing left now but a barn, and no windows even in that. They started a hundred banks that furnished 

''more money." In process of time they got money enough of that 

kind. If the banks ever paid anything I never heard of it. They 

were to be started on coin, and they too.k kegs of nails and brok n lass, with u, little coin on top, and breu~ht the in pector of banks in 

and started bu,nks upon the e kegs of nails with a little coin scatter d on top, which were carted off the next day to some other place to start 

another bank, and then they ground out "more money" there. .After the fail me of these banks the cry was still, "More money; we must have more money; the country i suffering for more money." 

The cry was responded to, and more money was furnished. The 

treasury of the State of Michigan, already owing 51000,000, undertook to furnish more money, aud the State issued trea ury notes ad 

libitum, and the "more-money" men got more money until the vu,lue 

of the State treasury notes, which have been paid to the ]ast dollar 

at par, ran down to thirty-seven cents on the dollar; and almost every 

city in the State, including the city of Detroit, responded to the cry 

of "more money," and issued shin-plasters; and individual , realizing 

that "more money" was needed, issued shin-pla ters. So the State of 

MichiO'an was flooded with more money. 

Well, sir, you can see at a glance that the State of Michigan needed more money. We had as a people been speculating aJ.most to :t man. It was not confined to the merchant, the banker, the man of wea.1th; 

but the mechanic, the farmer, the laborer, every man who cou1d buy a piece of property of any sort, kind, or de cription, oought it, mn in 

debt, laid out a town, sold the lot , gave a, mortgage, :md then wanted 

"more money" to pay that mortgage. 

When the collap e came it was absolute; there was no mi take a, bout 

it; the collapse wa perfect. Then the people of Iichi(l'an had enough 

of "more money;" and when our constitutional convention met, a it 

did a few years later, they put into the constitution a clause prohibiting the Legislature forever from chartering a bank or affordin~ the means of furnishing "more money;" and the people acqui.e ced mit. 

They ha-d had enough of the "more-money" cry; and for twenty-five 

years there vas no more cry in the State of Michigan for irredeemable 

money. When you pa sed your nu,tional banking law we had in the 

State of Michlgu,nj\lSt 200,000 of banking capitnJ. for the whole State; 

and that was a little bank in Detroit acting under an old c.h::u·tor. There were a few private banks scattered here and ther , private individual brokers, but there were no banks of issue in the tate, and wo were compelled to send to the right hand and the left, and everywhere, 

to get money; to get good money if we could, but mo11ey we mu t 

have; and we found the place a.t last where we could get more money, and the State of my honorable friend from Indiana [~Ir. PRATT] furnished it. 

Sir, there is a generation ri ing since 1841, 1842, and 1843 who forget the crash of those years, but yon will not find a man in the whole 

State of Michigan, who went through that crash, who wants any more irredeemable money; and I thought that Indiana hn d got pretty 

well filled with irredeemable money. The State of Indiana, not 

profiting by the experience of the State of Michigan, in 1853, some fourteen years afterward, having forgotten all about Michigan wild - cat, thought its people wanted more money, and so pa d u, general 

banking law, authorizing anybody to furnish more money who could 

buy a paper mill and start a sb.op. They gave some sort of I' mity, 

but the security, I believe, wa not quite as good as that which purported to be furnished by the Michigan wild-cats, for hat wa coin. 

They gave some sort of security in Indiana, and they furnished money 

known familiarly all over the West-my colleague will rem em bet itas "red-dog." Was not that it 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I do not remember now. 1.Ir. CHANDLER. We hu,d no other name for it in Michi(l'an. It 

was generally from 10 to 20 aud sometimes 25 per cent. below u,ny 

other money, and I do not know that it was worth near a~ much as that, but it circulated because we had not anything else to circulate, 

and we used to send it over by the wagon-load to Chicago, and ell it 

for what we could get and buy anything that Chicago had to sell. 

But' e got more money. I thought the constituents of my honorable 

friend from Indiana had had enough of that de cription of money, but 

it seems they have not. They want" more money" still. Well, sir, I hope it will not be of the red-dog kind. That wa the only name known for it in our State, u,s wild-cat was for yours. I hope my friend 

from Indi..m.a will take no offense when I put it after the mi take the 

State of Michigan had made. 

Mr. PRATT. Not at all. 

Mr. CHANDLER. But I have not heard anything of thi red-dog 

currency for some years, and it is very possible that the generation now on the stage have forgotten even the red-dog experience of Indi · ana. 

Now, 1\Ir. President, the impres ion seems to hu,ve gone abroad that 

the losses from the failme of banks and from the discount and lo e upon bank circulation fall upon the wealthy cla,s es. Nothing is further from the truth. The losses to which I have referr d ilicl not 

fall upon the moneyed men of the State of 1\fichig:m, the men who were in sound condition. They fell upon the laboring man, the farmer, 

and the mechanic. They fell upon the men who could lea t afforu to 

submit to the los . So it is now. Why, sir, our values are fixed uy a foreign market, and in coin. There is not a bushel of corn or a bushel 

of wheat raised in Indiana, or Illinois, or Michigan, the value of which 

is not fixed by the foreign value in coin of that particular article. 

When you enhance the cost of production by an inferior currency yon 

put that loss upon the producer.! and the loss falls not upon the wealthy 

man, but upon the laborer and. the producer. Money will take care 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1585 

of it-self all over the world. If it is not safe in this country, it will 

find a country where 'it is safo, and it will go to that country, no matter where that may be. Hence capital qreuires _no protection what- ever from this body; money will take car~ of Itself; but the poor 

man, the laboring man, th_e man who submits to all the l~sses from 

this depreciated currency: 1S the man who n~ers _all the pam ~n~ ap. 

the injury that are inflicted by tlris f alse leg1Slat10n. Why, su, It _Is 

rnmored that even the gentleman who J?Ossesses such great wealth I? 

this city removed a lariYe portion of lris money to ~m·ope, where It 

would briniY him probably no more than 3 per cent. mterest, because 

he did not ~onsider it safe in the District of Columbia or elsewhere 

in this country. So it always has been. The wealthy me~ of the , South during the rebellion bought cotton and_ transferred ~heu· funds 

where they would be safe. My honorable friend, the semor Senator 

from 8outh Carolina, [Mr. ROBERTSON,] will inform you t~athe nev~r 

lo t a dollar by all the depreciated currency that was cnculated m the South duriniY the rebellion. It was the poor men who suffered. The rich men to~k care of themselves. So it is all over this nation, and all over the world. In case of ·a loss, it falls upon the bboring 

rna ses and the poor men, and not upon the rich. In 847 the crash if such it may be termed, was very severe, and 

there were some f:ill.ures'; but there was no inflation then, and ~he effect of the crash and the vanic of 1847 soon passed away, leavmg 

scn,rcely a wave in its track. In 1857 the crash was more severe and the losses and failures 

greater. In 1857 we had this unlimited amount of "r~d dog m_oney," 

which expanded things considerably. There was no diffic~ty m bor- rowing any amount of money you wanted to borrow,_ but _It was not 

very good when you got it; and the crash of 1857 was mfimtely worse 

than that of 1847, and about equal to that of 1873. . Now sir we come to the crash of 1873. On the 15th day of Sep- tembe; 1873 this nation was in a more prosperous condition than perhap~ it h~d been for the last twenty-five years. Every branch of 

industry wa-s prosperous, every interest of the people wa prosperous ; 

but in a day, at the drop of the ball at twelve o'.clock on the 16th o~ September, the panic struck. What produced this tremendous paruc ~d 

crash in this great and prosperous country It. was over specu~ahon 

in railroad securities. It was by men undertaking to do what It was utterly impossible for them to do, to wit, for individuals to float 

untold millions by their own credit; and when the people became 

alarmed for fear thecra h would come, the crash came, and there was no alvation from it. But,_ sir, on that very self-same day the n_ation was more prosperous than 1t had been for the lu-st twenty years m all 

it interests- business, banking, and every other. That crush ought 

not to have extended one yard beyond Wall street and the few producers of railroad iron who were manufacturing for these defunct rail- roads. But, sir, the panic wa-s so great that it spread until it became 

universal and value sank until there seemed to be no bottom, and 

everybody was affected throughout the length and breadth of this 

broad land. 

But, ~h'. President, th~t panic was of short durn,t~on. Many fail- ures took place, and partiCularly among stock and r~ ilroad operators; 

but the main business of the country still went on w1t h a few notable 

exceptions. Some manufactories stopped for the want of money; 

others stopped for the want of credit. The men that had been i suing 

their pap_er without intending to pay it, 'issuing millio~ of doll_ars of paper which they knew they could not meet at matunty, trustmg 

in luck to meet their obligations- those men could not borrow money; 

their lines are full everywhere; nobody will loan them money; but, 

sir, upon undoubted security money is to-day cheaper than it ha.s 

b en at any time for the lu, t twenty years. These great borrowers, 

without the expectation of paying at maturity, are to-day all out of 

the market. No man will loan money to a person who does ~o.t pay 

at maturity. Every man that desires to borrow money for leg1timat.o 

business can borrow it to-day cheaper than he couJcl borrow it ior 

the lust twenty yeaTs, us I hall show yon in a very few moments 

when I receive the paper which I have sent for. 

Sir, you may legi late f~r this class who have ove~ sl?ecula;ted, Y?U 

may leiYislate for the benefit of the men who have built factones, bmlt steamb~ats built mills, bought mills, bought mines, bought everything 

for sale and given their paper knowing they could not meet it unless 

they co~d bonow the money o>er again; you may legislate them 

100,000,000 or 1 ooo,ooo,o~o,_ and you will not help then;t in the s~ghtest de<Yree · bnt for allleO"ttimate purpo e , for all strictly busmess 

paper that' is known as gUt-edged, money is not only cheaper in the 

market of New York, but it is cheaper in every money-center throughout these United States, than it has been for a long time. You may 

go to Detroit, to Buffalo, to Roch.ester, to Clevel~ncl,,to Sa~t Lo~s, 

to Chicarro, anywhere, and yon will find tbat cap1tal1s seeking pnme 

A No.1 paper at the very lowe t rate of intere t . Here is the report 

from New York for ye terday afternoon at 2 o'clock, taken from the 

New York Evening Post, consider ed a very reliable authority. The 

Po t's financial article ays : 

Early sales of gold were at 12~, and since 11.30 o'clock sales have been at 12! 1i> 1~. 

On rrold loans the rn.tes ha.ve been 4 1i> 5 per cent. Foreign exchange is dull. * * * 

The money market continue easy, with 4 1i> 5 per cent. as the ruling quotation for 

call loans, 3 to 6 being exceptional rates. 

-That is to say, on very choice securities they could borrow money ~t 3 per cent., and on not so good securities they would be charged 6 

per cent. 

100 

Government bonds are firm at yesterday's advance. Southern St.ate bonds are- at the board strong for Tenne sees anu ::Mis ouris, and heavy for Virg;inias. The 

stock market has been steady to strong and dulL Prime mercantile paper is quoted at 5~ to 6! per cent. 

Prime mercantile paper, :Mr. President, is paper that is undoubted, and that is paid at maturity and tha,t will not be renewed. Prime 

mercantile paper is selling at from 5t to 6t per cent., and I have never known within the la t twenty-five years prime mercantile paper 

quoted below 6 per cent. in any quotations, nor do I believe it ha-s ever been less than that. Mr. CAMERON. Will the Senator allow me to ask a question ¥ 

:Mr. CHANDLER. Mo t certainly. 

Mr. CAMERON. I desire to ask the Senator from Michigan if h e believes a merchant in Chicago, Saint L ouis, or farther west, could go 

to New York with prime paper- paper that would be prime a t home- and get it discounted for the price he named f 

Mr. CHANDLER. They offered to discount it for me f or 6 per cent. Mr. CAMERON. They would do it for my friend, for he is one of 

those people who issue nothing but gilt-edged paper. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Any concern of undoubted credit, that gives giltedged paper anywhere, that they are sure will be paid, can obtain discount at those rates in New York to-day. That is what I meaJ:!. to say. Mr. CAMERON. If the Senator will allow me ju t one word more, 

I will sa.y that when money is cheapest in New York it is an evidence 

that business is not pro perons in the country. 1\foney is loaned on short loans, at call generally, and of course at low rates; but when 

busine s is not prosperous there iB very little to be had. ~h'. CHANDLER. My friend did not understand me. This is busi- ne s paper, which is given at :fixed dates, to be paid at maturity. Th at 

is the paper I was quoting. :Mr. CAMERON. Exactly; and I have h ad some experience in busi- nes paper. 1\fr. CHANDLER. So have I. Mr. CAMERON. I know you have; and it is that sort of paper which, I repeat again, is evidence of want of prosperity and want of 

facilities for business purposes abroad. In time when bu iness is 

not prosperous the money gets to New York, and then it becomes a matter for speculation entirely. It is better to take 1 per cent. pm· 

annum, to ma~e it an extreme case, than to let it lie idle. They must 

make something out of it, and they loan it for a day or two or a month 

at a time. The moment business becomes prosperous again, then that 

money is wanted in the country, not in the marts of trade so much as throughout the great manufacturing and agricultural districts of 

the country. There is where they need facilities, and there is t h e place where they cannot get them at the present d..ay. . ~h' . CHANDLER. If my honorable friend had been in his seat when 

I commenced he would have understood my meaning better; but as he was not in I will simply inform him that I was talking about busi- ness paper when he came in and intenupted me. Of course he 

knows as well as I do what business paper is; but as he has under- taken to give an explanation of what stock business is, I propo e t o pay a little attention now to stocks, with his penni sion. :Mr. CAMERON. I suppose I ought to beg the Senator's pardon for 

interrupting hinl. Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly not. 

I hold in my hand, ~h'. President, t.he prices of stocks in the city of 

New York on the 15th day of September, or the day before the panic 

struck; on the 30th day of October, or about the midcUc of the panic ; 

and on the 14th day of February, or la t Saturday. When I had the e lists made out, Saturday's paper was the last paper I had to refer to, 

and I presume, although this paper is dated the 16th, it means last 

Saturday, the latest date I have been able to po sess myself of. 

J?rom the 15th day of September to the 14th day of February is a period of five months lacking .one day. I give you the quotations of 

the self-same stocks on those days. United States new 5 per cent. stocks on the 15th of September, 

the day before the panic truck, sold for 112t cents on the dollar ; on the 30th day of October they sold for 108, and on the 14th day of Feb- ruary ior 112!. The five-twen,ties of May and November sold on the 

15th of September for 115-!; on the 30th of October for 108; and on the 14th of February for 120, or 4t per cent. higher than they sold 

for the day before the panic occurred in the city of New York and the 

nation. The five-twenties payable in January and July sold on the 

15th of September for UGt; on the 30th of October for 112t; and on the 14th of February for 120t, or :ij- per cent. higher than the day 

before the panic. , American gold sold on the 15th of September at 111 ; on i he 30th 

October at lOst; on the 14th February at 112!, or 1! per cent. higher than it sold for before the panic. Then we come to the interest-paying stocks. New York Central and 

Hudson River Railroad tock sold on the 15th of September at 103! ; on the 30th of October at Sit; on the 14th of February 103-i, or 1 per cent. higher than the day before the panic. Pacific. Mail, which is 

rather a fancy stock, sold at 43! on the 15th of September; at 26t on 

the 30th of October; at 43 on the 14th of February, which is only -l 

per cent. ess than before the panic. This is a fancy stock which I 

believe does not pay dividends; but I am tryiuiY now to follow the 

dividend-paying stock~ . Saint Paul, common, soYd on the 15th d3y of 

September at 46!-; on the 30th of October at 22i; and on the 14th of 

February at 47!, or 1t per cent. higher than th(j day before the panic. 

J 
1586 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

But I will not detain the Senate longer on this point than to give the 

quotation of one other stock. Harlem sold for 12Bt on the 15t h of September; for 101-1- ou the 30th of October, and for 132!- on t he 14th of 

February, 1874, about 3 per cent. higher than before the panic began. There is one other stock to which I wish to call the attention of the 

body,·because it is strictly a fancy stock, never having paid a dividend, 

and I presume it never will pay a dividend as long as the world 

stands; that is the Union Pacific Railroad. It sold on the 15th of 

September at 24t. It is a speculative stock, its bonds are·below par; 

and its stocks sold on the 15th of September at 24t cents, on the 30th 

of October at 15-g-, on the 14th of February, 187.4, at 35t cents on a dollar, or nearly 40 per cent. more than it brought before the panic 

struck, and more than 125 per cent. above what it brought at the 

lowest panic price; and there is a purely fancy stock. So it is running through all the list of speculative st.ocks. You can scarcely :find one in all the list of theNew.York stock marketth::tti 

not quoted higher th::tn it wa before the panic struck on the 15th of 

September. '\Vhy, sir, speculation is running wild in the city of New 

York; and, as I showed you a moment ago, business paper, strictly 

busine s paper, that is good, is selling lower than it has old for at 

::tny time in the last twenty years. These are my advice all over the 

United States, in every money center, that strictly gilt-edged, good 

paper is sought everywhere ::tt lower rates of interest than have usually 

been charged. But, Mr. President, there is another feature. It has been intimated here that the increa e of our circulation from the issue of the 

$44,000,000 reserve may have had omethingtodowith this increased 

prosperity. Sir, let us look at the :figures on the Saturday before 

this Congress met, to wit, on the 29thday of November,and compare 

them with the :figures of the self-same stocks on the 14th day of Feb- ruary, and you will :find to your sorrow that while you have increaseu 

your circulation , 26,000,000 or $27,000,000, you have diminished your 

purchasing power by more than three times that amount in the value 

of your money. Let us ta.ke those two dates. 

If I had had more time I could have reduced what I have to say 

into a smaller space, bntr I have only had a day or two to consider it, 

and it is a work of labor to go over these figures. I have worked at 

them ever since I left here yesterday afternoon, and I hoped to bring 

my remarks within ten minutes, but I cannot do it. It simply re- quires time to do that. On the 29th o.f November, the Saturday before Congress met, your new five per cents sold at 109t, and on Saturday last they sold at 

113-1-. You have increased your circul::ttion how much¥ About 5 per cent., or not more than 6. Here is an incre::tSe in the v::tlue of one single security about equal to that. Then your five-twenties, payable 

in May and November, sold for 111-l- on the 29th of November, and on the 14t.h of February they were 120, or 9 per cent. higher, while you 

have only increa ed your circulation by the amount of 6 per cent. While you have been increasing your circulation you have been diminishing its purchasing power, as I shall show before I get though with 

the few remarks I am making. You have actually mane yourselves 

poorer, by the issue of these millions, in the purchasing power of the 

money you have put afloat. On the 29th day of November, J anuary 

::tnd July five-twenty bonds were 1141, and on the 14th day of Febru- ::try they were 120t, thus increasing in price to just about the extent 

of your increase of currency. 

New York Central and Hudson River Railron,d sold for91!per cent. on the 29th of November, and on the 14th of February for 1041, or ::tn 

increase of 13 per cent. Chica.go and Rock Island sold for 93! on the 

29th of November, and on Saturday la t for 108t, or an advance of more than 15 per cent. Saint Paul, common, sold for 35 on the 29t.h of 

November, and on Saturday last at 47t, or a good deal more than 20 

per cent. on the cost. · lVIr. HOWE. What is"the first date Y 

]\fr. CHANDLER. November 29,1873. l am trying now to show, if 

the Senate will give me their attention, that by the increase in Treasm·y notes we have diminished their purcha ing value more than three 

times the amount of our increase. That is the point of my argument. :1\Ir. HOWE. I understood the point, but I did not understand what 

the first date was. Mr. CHANDLER. Before, I read from the quotations of the 15th 

of September ~nd the 14th of February, and now I am reading from 

those of the 29th of November, or the Satnnlay before Congress met, as compared '\\"i.th the prices of l::tst Sat:urday; and I am showing, as I think I shall be able to show l,efore I get through- t:hough I fear I 

shall worry the Senate by going over these figures-that we have lost 

m::tterially in purchasing value, and not only in this, but in other 

ways. 

1\Ir. PRATT. If it does not interrupt my friend, I should like to 

ask him this question: how the quotations of the bonds and stocks he 

has referred to, on last Saturday, compare with their quot::ttions just 

previous to the time the panic occurred, in September last Y 

Mr. CHANDLER. That is what I read before. There has been an increase of several per cent. I read the quotations of the 15th of 

September, and went over the whole list, showing an inm;ea e of every 

stock on the list. Iu other words, t he panic is not only over and wholly 

gone, but there is speculation unprecedented going on to-day, preparatory to a worse crash than occm·red a.fter the 15th day of September. That is what I am trying to argue. That is the very point I am 

trying to make known here; this any man can ee if he will give it 

his attention. 

Now, Mr. Pre ident, I come to ::tnother cla s of figures, and I will ask the attention of the Senate while I show the effect upon the 

purcha ing value of money by issuing your greenback circulation 

from the day it was :first issued to the present time. In 1862we commenced the issue of greenbacks. In January, 1 62, 

after our war had continued for a good many months, when my honorable friend from Illinois [Mr. LOGAN] was in the ranks fighting 

gall::tntly for the country, the premium on gold was 2.5 per cent.; in 

F ebruary it was 3.5; in M::trch, 1.8 ; in April, 1.5; in May, 1.3; in 

June, 6.5; in July, 15.5; in August, 14.5; in September, 18.5; in October, 28.5; in Nov~mber, 31.1; in December, 32.3. It will be remem- bered that the tben circulating medium (which was at that time Statebank notes) amounted to n.bout 200,000,000. This circnln.tion was increased during the year 1 62 by the addition of 147,700,000 in greenbacks, undthat increase ·of circulation carried the value of gold from 

102.5 on the 1 t of January to 132.3 on the 31st day of December following. I account for that gradual increase in this way: The notes 

of the Government were i sued at :first, as my honorable friend from 

New Jersey will remember, in very smaU quantitie , almo t in:finitesirn::tl quantities; were paid out to the Army and produced no important effect; but by the end of the year 1862 the premium on gold 

had risen to 32.3 per cent., or nearly one-third. The average premium 

during that calendar year was 13.3 per cent. · In 1863 the necessities of the Government compelled us to increase 

the greenback circulation to a yet larger extent. We issued during 

that year S263,500,000 auditional, carrying up our greenback circulation to $411,200,000, in addition, of course, to our bank circulation, 

whatever it may have been. During the month of J a11uary of that year 

the premium on gold was 45.1 per cent.; during February, 60.5; March, 

54.5; April, 51.5 ; May, 48.9; June, 44.5; July, 30.6; .August, 25.8; September~ 34.2; October, 47.7; November, 48; December, 51.1. In 

other worcLs, the average rate of premium upon gold dming that 

whole year was 45.2 per <;ent. I hold in my hand a paper showing 

the cash value of this emission for 1863. The emission of green backs 

::tt that time was 411,200,000. The average premium on gold was 45.2 per cent. The actual cash purchasing value of that four hundred and eleven millions, during the year 1863, was $2 3,195,000, and 

that was the whole purchasing value of that money during that year. Then we come to the next year, 1864. In 1864 we increased our circulating medium by tho ::tddition of $237,900,000, making the whole 

amount of greenbacks then 649,100,000. I know that these :figmes are very dry and uninteresting, but I am trying to make them as brief as I can, and to make them as little annoying as po sible. In 

1864 we had carried our greenback circulation, as I have said, up to 

$649,100,000, or an increa e of $237,900,000 since 1863. In 1864 the 

price of gold was, in January, 155.5; February 158.6 ; March, 1G2.6; 

.April, 172.7; May, 176.3; June, 210.7; July, 25 .~ ; or le than forty 

cents on the dollar in coin for your greenbacks a.tter you bad carried 

the amount up to $649,000,000. In .August the premium was 2G4.1; 

in September, 222.5; in October, 207.2; in November,233.5; in Decem- her, 227.5. There is not a man here who doe not r emember, nor is 

there a farmer or mechanic throughout the length ancl breadth of tho 

land who does not remember, that he then paid sixty conts for cotton goo<ls that he had been in the h::tbit of lmying for twelve and a h::tlf cents, and that he paid for everything else in the arne ratio. 

The merchant took care that he met with no lo s; but the laboring man, the farmer, the man of muscle, was the man who submitted to 

this great loss, while the merchant and while every man 'vith money 

took care of himself. During that year the average price of gold was 203.3 per cent., or your money was a fr::tction les than fortyeight and one-half cents on the dollar during the whole ear. You 

had out that year 649,100,000, and the value of gold was 203.3, and 

the purchasing value of your $649,100,000 was $319,281,000, and that wa.s the whole of it. The purchasing valne of your 649,100,000 was · more than fifty millions less than of the 400,000,000 you have out 

now, for it is four hundred niillions including your fractional currency. I am trying to convince the member of thi body that inflation is 

not an increase of money. The people of the State of 1\iichigan have 

become convinced of this by ad experience, at lea t those who have 

been there long enough to suffer from inflation; and I want to con- vince the members of this body that inflation is the greatest curse they can inflic t upon the nation or upon their constitutents. 

In 1865 you again increa ed the volume of your circulating medium 

by the amount of $49,800,000; making the whole amount of your circulation 69 ,900,000. During the month of January, 1865, the price 

of gold was 216.2; during February, 205.5; in 1arch, 173.8 ; iu April, 

148.5; and after that it stood at 135.6, 140.1, 142.1, 143.5, 143.9, 145.5, 

147, 146.2. The average of the year 1865was 157.3; and wh~ttwast.ho 

purchasing value of your greenbacks that year ¥ Every man here 

will remark that· that year we were disposing of our bonds at tho 

rate of hundreds of millions of dollars a month ; money was pas ing 

through the Treasm y almost without limit. ·we had 1,000,000,000 

that must be negotiated, and negot.iated at once-seven-thirities and 

compound-intere t notes and other floating liabilities that must be 

funded ; and during that year the war had closed, and we we£e 

negotiating at this enormous rate, the price of gold fell to 153.3, and 

during that year the purchasing value of our circulation attained a 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1587 

higher rate than during any other year. That year, although our circulation of greenbacks was $69 ,900,000, and the premium on gold 

57.3, the actual purchasing value of that $69 ,900,000 was $444,310,000. In 18tiG we retired $90,0UO,OOO, leaving $608,900,000, and the average 

premium on gold that year was 40.9 per cent. The purchasing value 

of the $o03,900,0v0, with the premium on gold at 40.9, wa , 432,150,000. 

The next year, 1 67, we retired $72,:300,000, and the premium on gold fell to 38.2. So we went on reducing until we got down to 

$400,000,000, and then we struck 14.9, 11.7, li.4, and 14.7 as the premium on gold. There the matter has stood, and I have here from 

year to year the purchasing value for each year. 

In 1867 the premium on gold was 38.2, and we had $536,600,000 of 

circulation, anu the purchasing value of that was $3 8,277,000. In 

1 68 the premium was 39.9; wo had '444,200,000 of circulation, and 

the purchasing value of it was $317,967,000. In 1869 the premium was :33 per cent. ; we had $:391,600,000 out; the purchasing value was $294,436,000. In 1870 the premium was 14.!;; we had $398,400,000 

out; the purchasing value was 346,736,000. In other words, you will 

perceive that the purchasing value of our 39 ,000,000 in 1870 was 

greater by $:36,000,000 than the purchasing value of our $698,900,000 ill 1 65. :Mr. Pre ident, what we want is purchasing value, because the intrin- sic value is measured by the purchasing value. There is not a bushel 

of wheat that goes from your State or from mine the purchasing value 

of which is notfixecl by the gold value on the other side of the Atlan- tic. We are shipping millions and tens of millions and hunureds of 

millions of our agricultural products every year, and the value of 

these products is fixed in gold on the other side of the Atlantic; and 

yet by this increa e of circulation we enhance the value of everything that the producer raises, but when the product comes to the 

market its value must be fixeu by its price in gold across the Atlantic. 

:Mr. LOGAN. Will the Senator allow me to interrupt him Y 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. Certainly. llr. LOGAN. I see the impression that the Senator a,ttempts to 

create is that the high price of golU was caused by issuing an excess 

of ~reenbacks during the years from 1862 to 1865. Is that the Sennr 

tor s proposition Y . 1\Ir. CHANDLER. Undoubtedly. J\.Ir. LOG.A.l'f. I ask the Senator to state whether or not he did not 

entertain the opinion about that time that it wa the question as to 

whether we gained the victory or tlle other side that e:fi:'ected that f 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. l\Iost undoubtedly I voted for every issue, and 

should do it again. It was a question of life or death for the nation. 

But I u,m simply arguing to show that while, as a war measure, it was proper and suitable, as a peace measure it would be simply outrageous. . 

1\Ir. LOGAN. That is not the point, however. No matter how outrageous it is now, since the wu,r is all over and the thing is done, you 

forced us who were risking our lives to take this money that you say now was worth only20 per cent. on the dollar; you forced ns to take 

it as a legal tender, making it equa1 to gold so br as the p aying for 

service and debts was concerned :1t that time; and if I am not mistaken the record will show that the Senator befOl'e the country assev- erated that to be the be&t financial measure tha,t ever was instituted 

in this country. 

But what I first asked was this: In the gold market in New York, 

did not the question as to whether we were defeatetl or not defeated in the field fix the value of gold after every battle that was fought during the war! I ask the Sena.tor if gold did not universally go up when the Union troops were defeated, and universally go down when they were victorious, according to the estimates <luring 

the war 

Mr. CHAJ\TDLER. It undoubtedly had an influence, but it was not 

the primary and sole cause. 

Mr. LOG.A.l'f. I am not talking a,bout the primary ca,use. 

1\Ir. CH NDLER. It had an influence, unquestionably. 

Mr. LOGAN. I ask you to state if it is not a fact that every victory gained by the Union troops r educed the price of gold, and that 

every victory gained by the confederate troops enhanced the price of 

gold- I ask if th:1t is not the historical fact Y 

Mr. CHANDLER. I have it here before me, and I can tell the 

Senat.or bow much it aJfected the price of gold. I have the price of 

gold for every month from the commencement of the war to the end. If the Senator will name any special victory, I will tell him the exact 

influence it had. 

Mr. LOGAN. I am not questioning tha,t. I asked if that was not 

the fact. 

1\fr. CH..Al\TDLER. Undoubtedly it had some effect. 

1\fr. LOGAN. Then I ask this further question: If in 1863 we had 

$698,000,000 of currency in circula,tion, or 600,000,000- it makes no difference which; I prefer to use round numbers-during the time 

we had that amount in circulation and gold wa.s standing at 140 or 

150, no matter what, while no differences were being made in the 

Army, did not every victory against us during the time our currency 

stood at that amount increase the price of gold' 

tfr. CHANDLER. ndoubtedly it did to some extent. 1\fr. LOGAN. If it did, I ask then if we had not lost the victory would the price of gold have been changed . • 

Mr. CHANDLER. I do not quite understand the Senator. 

Mr. LOGAN. If we b ad $500,000,000 in circulation at a stated time, 

a,nd gold. was at a stated price, based upon that circulation, and a victory was gained by us wllich reduced the price of gold from that 

standard, or if lost by us, which increased the price of gold by that 

standard, was it the influence of the victory or the influence of the 

money' 

Mr. CH..Al\TDLER. Both had some influence. Mr. LOGAN. Then I hope you will not lay it all to the currency. 1\Ir. CHANDLER. I am trying to be as fair as I can on this whole 

question. Now, I want to call the attention of the Senate to another set of 

figures that will be of great interest, I have no doubt, to some of our friends, because it allu.des to a difierent state of facts. I bold in my .hand a table of the value of what is called confederate money from 

time to time. The courts have decided that, where a suit is brought 

for a debt contracted in confederate money, the price of gold at the 

time the debt was contracted should be the price at which it should 

be calculated, on the gold basis. 

From January to ~by, 1861, or while we were paying gold, the 

value of this money was 5 per cent. below par; from July to October 

it was 10 per cent. ; from October 1 to 15 it was 12 per cent.; from 

October 15 t.o November 15, 15 per cent. ; December 1, 20 per cent. ; 

December 15, 30 per cent. ; J a:o.uary 1, 1862, it stood at 20 per cent. below par; February 1, 25 per cent. ; February 15, 40 per cent. ; 

March 1, 50 per cent. ; March 10, 65; April17 75 ; April15, 80 ; May 

15, 95; June 15, $2 for $1. 

I am utterly surprised that our friends on the other side of the 

House, who have suffered so terribly from excessive inflation, should 

be in favor of inflation again. But I will go on with this. 

July 1, it was 2 for $1; July 15, $2 for $1-- l\fr. LOG.A.l'f. Is the Senator speaking of confederate money? 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. Confederate money. August 1 it was $2.30 for $1 ; September 1, $2.50 for 1; October 1, $2.50 for 1; February 1 to March 1, 1 G3, $3.10 for 1; March 1, 3.25 

for $1; March 15 to May 15, $5 for 1; fay 15, $6 for $1; June, $6.50 

for 1; June 15,$7.50 for 1; July 1, $8 for $1 ; August 1, 14 for $1; 

September 1, 14 for $1; October 1, $151or $1; November 1, 13 for 

$1; December 1, $20 for $1, or five cents on the dollar; December 15, 

$21 for '1 ; Jan nary 1, 1864, $21 for $1 ; Jan nary 15, 20 for $1 ; March 

1, $26 for 1 ; April 1, 19 for $1 ; May 1, $20 for $1 ; June 1, 18 for 

1; October 1, $27 for $1; October 15, $25 for $1, or four cents on the 

dollar; November 15, $ for 1; December 1, 32for $1; December 31,. $51 for $1, or a fraction less than two cents on the dollar, growing less 

by degrees. On January 1, 1 65, the value was $60 for 1; February 

1, 50 for $1; March 1, $55 for $1; Aprill, $70 for · 1; April 20, $100 

for $1, or one cent on a dollar; April 26, $200 for $1, or haJf a cent on a dollar; April27, 300 for $1. This was while Grant was fighting, 

and it ran down pretty fast. April 26 it was $200 for $1: April 27, 

$300 for $1; ApTil 28, 500 for $1, or five mills on the dollar; April 29, 

00 for $1 ; April 30, $1,000 for $1, or one-tenth of one cent on the 

dollar. This is inflation carried out to its bitter encl. l\by 1, 1865, it was $1,200 for $1, or eight-tenth of one-tenth of one cent on .a dollar. Mr. LOGAN. Will the Senator allow me right there to put a ques- tion¥ 

1\Ir. CHANDLER. Certainly; as many as you plea e. Mr. LOGAN. I am very much obliged to the Senator. I see the 

Senator is now comparing our national currency- United States cur- rency- with the confederate currency. Mr. CHAJ\TDLER. Now, I :1m simply showingtheeffectofinflation. 

1\h. LOGAN. Allow me to make my proposition . Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly. 

1\lr. LOGAN. I must say that I am very much surprised to see the war Senator, as he w::ts termed not many years ago, so short a time 

having elapsed since the faith of this nation had been tried and the 

people tested it, to-day comparing our notes with confederate notes. Does he suppose that he can palm off any such sophistry as that upon an intelligent people¥ Does he not know that the confederate money was based upon a prospective government, and the moment the govern- ment was on the decline the money must decline-the very moment 

the government collapsed the money could not be worth the paper it wa written on Y Does he not know that; and does he stand here 

to-day in the presence of an intelligent community to compare the 

notes of a collapsed government and the· epreciation with those of a. competent, stable government like ours, whose notes have not been 

depreciated on account of want of faith in the Government f Great 

Heaven! if we have come to this kind of argumentation on the side 

of the bu1lionists, or the side of the contractionists, on the side of the 

rich against the muscle and energy of the country, that they must 

compare our Government, standing as it does to-day the pride of the 

world, against the notes of a confederate collapsed government, I am ashamedof my country if such stuff as this should bereceived by even a man that was depreciated in intellect. 

Now, another qnestion--

1\fr. CHANDLER. Had I not better answer them one at a time¥ 

:Mr. LOGAN. Very well; I will ask one at a time, because I must 

say-- J\.fr. CHANDLER. 0, go right through; ask them all. I would as soon t:1ke oue ra,ldng shot as a pop at a time. 

Mr. LOGAN. I know the Senator is competent to take a thousand 

an<l ward them all off. I am only saying that I am astonished at a 
I 

.. 

1588 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. }fEBRUARY 18, 

comparison of that kind. I must say so, and I will put my way of 

n.rgument on his particular line. He was arguing to the Senate that 

the currency of this Government depreciated n.ccording to the amount 

that was issued. That was his argument. He did n.dmit, however, 

that victories or defeats hn.d something to do with the incre::hBe or 

decrease in the value of gold. 

Does the Senator not know, and I put the question, that if the con- federacy had been sustained and become a fixed and stable government, their money then would have been of value according to their 

ability to redeem and pay it T But inasmuch as the government de 

facto declined and .finally was destroyed and entirely collapsed, and was without any basis, structure, or form in existence, the money, of 

course, of necessity, must also collapse. I a.sk him if he will state that 

the comparison he makes is a genuine and fair one to make before 

the &enateY 

Mr. CHANDLER. I was endeavoring to show that the issue had 

very much to do with the value of coin, and I show it from these 

£gures, that after we had diminished our issue of greenbacks to a cer- tain limit, the value of coin fell from 33 in a single year to 14, and 

that it had remained, as I read, in 1870, 14rh; in 1871, 11 ~I am giv- ing you the average throughout t~ year-in 1872, 12To; in 1 73, 14/o, 

thus remaining substantially at the same £gure, rising a little now and falling a little then, but remaining substantially at the same figure so long as you held the quantity of greenbacks at that amount; 

and prior to that I had shown that as you increased the issue of your 

greenbacks enormously, you increased the value of your gold, and 

that after you had reduced it to a certain amount, you reduced the 

value of your gc:>ld. 

Now, sir, with regard to comparing these figures, I took them as an exhibition of -the effect of excessive issues. But suppose you take 

your continental money which has never been redeemed, issued to 

meet the demand for more money; and so they kept on, is uing more money, more money-take the continental money that first won us our independence as a nation, and what to-day is the value of that 

money'f 

Now, 1\Ir. President, a great deal has been said n,bout the issue of 

greenbacks in place of national currency. I should like to ask any man who mn,kes that proposition how he proposes to get the greenbacks out of the Treasmy of the United States into the hands of 

the people. The business of a bank is to discount bills of exchange, 

to discount notes. A man in Chicago buys a cargo of wheat, corn, or oats, and draws a bill of exchange on the city of New York, or his 

factor in Buffalo, or wherever he ships his cargo. He goes into the 

bank and takes his currency for that exchange. That is the busi- ness of a bank. Now, suppose you abolish all banks, do you propose 

to have your Government, your national Treasury, issue bills of ex- change, issue the greenbacks, and get them into the hands of the 

p eople' Is that what you propose T 

Mr. CAMERON. That is not my proposition. 

Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator does not propose that. I am in 

f avor of the Senator's proposition, with an amendment. 

Now, there are only two ways to get the greenbacks into the hands 

of the people. You can go and buy bonds, but I have shown you that 

your bonds are to-day worth over 120 cents on the dollar. If you re- solve to-day to issue $100,000,000 in greenb..tcks for the purpose of purchasing your bonds, you carry those bonds up to 130 or 140 perhaps; 

nobody knows where you will carry your gold-bearing bonds. I ask 

any man to answer me that question. Suppose you issue $100,000,000 

or .200,000,000 or $500,000,000 of greenbacks, bow a,re you going to 

get one solitaTy dollar into the hands of the people unless you go into 

the market and buy your bonds; and then they do not relieve the people to the amount of :1 solitary dollar¥ You must turn your Govern- ment into a brol,mr's shop and discount the bills of A, B, and C, all over the country. How much would you give for yoUT assets u.:fter 

you have carried on that business for twelve months'¥ 

Mr. President, I know of no way to substitute the Treasury of the 

United States for the banking experience of the last ten centuries. We 

have the experience of the past, we have the experience of our own nation, we have the experience of the world. Now, do we propose to 

throw aside this experience, and to launcl1 our boat upon n. wi hl and 

uncertain sea, au ocean of expansion and uo payments, an ocean of 

expansion, for what¥ 

Sir, thoreareveryfewpersonswitbin the range of my acquaintance 

who desire expansion of an irredeemable currency. Certainly the 

people of Michigan have had abundance of experience of that kind. 

But wherever you go you will find two clas es of men who are making 11 great noise about "more money." One is the speculator, the impecunious speculator, who has, perhaps, bought real estate and given a mortgage, and thinks that his only chance is to reduce the value of 

your currency until it falls so low that the people would rather take 

his land than hold your money; and the other is the man who has 

issued his paper without intending to pay when it matures, and who can borrow no more money upon any terms until he pays what he 

already owes. Mr. l\IORTON obtained the floor. 

l\fT. HOWE. Will the Senator from Indiana allow me to call the 

attention of the Senator from Michigan to one thing Y 

Mr. MORTON. Yes, sir. · 1\Ir. HOWE. fT. President, I wish to call the attention of the Senator fr·om .Michigan [1\Ir. CHA.J."'IDLER] to an amendment which I had 

intended to offer to meet the very purpose suggested by him. It differs from his proposed amendment only in two particulars. As I have 

drawn mine, it points out the way in which the Secretary i to get 

po es iou of the greenbacks to retire, and instead of retiring dolla,r 

for dollar, I propose to retire eighty-five cents on the dollar, leaving 

fifteen cents to meet the reserve. 

1\lr. CHANDLER. I will accept that as an amendment, or I will 

withdraw mine and allow that to be substituted. I have no particular preference for mine. 

1\fT. SHERMAN. Let it be read. 

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (~Ir. BoRE:l\IAN in the chair.) The propo eel amendment will be read for information. 

The Chief Clerk r ea{]. a-s follows : 

Provided, That the Secretary of the TreaslllJ' shall once in each month sell to the hi~hest bidder for United tates not.es coupon bonds equal to 85 per cent. of tho ad .• ditional bank circulation issued during the month preceding, which bonds shall 

be:rr ~terest at the ~ate of 5 per ceut. per annum, payable semi-annually; and the 

prrnmpal shall be payable at the pleasure of the Government after ten years from 

their date, both principal and intcre t to be paid in !!:Old coin; but none of aid 

bonds shall be sold at less than their par value, and the United States note re- ceived in exchange therefor shall never be reissued, but shall be destroyed. 

~Ir. HOWE. It is suggested by Senators that the interet should 

be payable quarterly, instead of emi-annually. 

Mr. SHERMAN. By the law, the interest is payable certainly semi- annually ; but I think the Secretary has the right to is ue bonds with 

the intere t payable quarterly-the new 5 per cents. ~Ir. MORTON. Mr. President, I think the argument on the other 

side may be said to be on its last legs when it is .found nece sary to 

compare our currency with the confederate currency. The answer was made by the Senator from Illinoi , [:Mr. LOGAN,] that the value 

of the confederate money declined with the fortunes and pro pects of 

the southern confederacy, and that when the confederacy was entirely 

gone its money had no value whatever. 

The Senator from Michigan [1\fr. CHANDLER] referred to the wildcat banks of Michigan when be said the people wanted more money. 

I suppose they did want more money; but they wante<.l money that 

would answer their purposes. They started a sy tern of banks. Those 

banks were on a specie basis. They were precisely after the desi.Te 

and. the heart of Ip.Y friend from Michigan. They were to be specie- paymg banks. 1\Ir. CH.A.l\TJ)LER. So the wild-cat banks of Michigan were the same. Mr. MORTON. I am speaking now of those very banks. I pre- sume the Senator was in favor of them. They were to be specie-paying banks-none of your national banks, issuing notes to be re<leemed 

in greenbacks, but the notes were to be redeemed in specie; and they 

furnished kegs of nails with the specie on top a.s the basis. Those 

banks were started without capital; theywere not secured byUni ed 

States stocks ; they were a swindle; they failed to redeem the note.<> 

in specie, or in anyt-hing else; and that ha.s been the history of nearly 

all the banks in this country that were started as specie-payiug 

banks. I can appeal to my friend from Connecticut [~Ir. BucKL,GHAM] that nearly all the State banks, with a few honorable exceptions, that started as specie-paying banks and were required to pay 

their notes in. specie, when the time came, failed to pay specie. The 

most of the specie-paying banks suspended when they were called 

upon to pay specie, and the relief afforded to the country in every 

time of panic was by their suspension. I heard my friend speak of 

it, and I had occasion myself to refer to it some time ago. When the 

great panic of 1857 came on, the country was relieved, not by the 

payment of their notes in specie, but by their suspension. Now, 1\fr. Pre ident, what comparison is there between thewild-cnt 

banks of l\Iichigan and the national banks of this country ¥ I a k the 

Senator how national-bank notes, ecured by United State stocks, 

that he says command a premium of 20 per cent. in the market, that 

command a premium in gold now in Europe, can be insecure upon his own argument Y If his argument is worth anythinO", it proves the 

soundness of this system, and the un oundne s of the one that he 

would seem to bold up for our admiration. 

l\1r. CHA....."""'T)LER. Will the Senator allow me to ask him a question 'I 

Mr. 1\IORTON. Yes, sir. 1\Ir.· CHANDLER. Is the security any better now than it was when our notes were selling for thirty cents on the dollar It is the same bond that is held as security. ~Ir. 1\lORTON. Yes, sir, the security is better in the markets of the 

world. The bonds were then depreciated. Let him remember t,hat 

until after the war was over the bonds nover got above the value of the 

greenbacks. The bonds were purchased with greenbacks, and the 

bonds and the greenbacks came along side by side a long a we had 

bonds to ell in greenbacks. The Senator for~et that important fact, 

that as long as we had bonds to sell in ~eenoacks the bonds never 

got above the value of the greenbacks. When we no longer had bonds 

to sell in greenbacks, then the bonds acquired a value above the 

greenbacks in the markets of the world, aucl got to be par in gold and even to command a premium in gold. Why, Mr. Presiclent, the na- tional-bank notes 1.mtil the end of the war were of the same value ns the bonds precisely. Why¥ Because they were redeemable in green- backs, and the green backs had the same \alue as the bond . It was only after you took away the power to buy bonds with greenbacks 

that the bonds acquired a superior value. Does the Senator forget 

that fact¥ He certainly does. 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1589 

Mr. LOGAN. ·will the Senator n.llow me to make a sug~estion in connection with his a.rgument, by wn.y of additionn.l reasonl 

Mr. MORTON. Yes, sir. Mr. LOGAN. The depreciation of the bonds- during the war depended much upon the confidence of the people in the ability of our Government to suppress tho rebellion and become n. permanent government again, and until after the war there wa-s no such thing M a 

par value of bonds. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. Will the Senator from Indiana allow me to remind him that it was not until June 23, 1870, I think, that our five-twenty 6 per cent. bonds came to par in gold. 

Mr. MORTON. Yes, sir. When gold was at 250premium, that was 

just the premium of gold over the bonds precisely. \Vhy ' Becn.use greenbacks were then purcha ing bonds at pa.r of the Government. Now, Mr. Pre ident, the bond· haven. gold value all over the world. 

Our6percentscommandapremium in gold in Europe, and our bank- notes are ecured by these gold-bearing and gold-par bonds. I ask 

how such notes can be insecure Y I n.sk how such a system of banking can be an unsound one Y 

But, Mr.· President, I de ire to call attention to n.nother pa.rt of h e arcrument of the Senator from Michigan, [Mr. CHANDLER,] for in 

so~e respects it was an extraordinary argument. Tho Senator, for 

the purpo e of showing that the p anic had pa sed by, and that we had enough money, and did not want any more, referred to the prices 

of stocks in New York, and referred to the rate of discount now prevailing in New York. That was a pretty good argument as far as it 

went. It ilid not prove all that he intended to prove by it, by a good 

deal. But now mark the next step in his aa·gument. For the purpo e of overcoming the argument made upon this floor some time 

aero, that the increase of the circulation by the addition of 27,000,000 

greenbacks had had a great deal to do wit h the restoration of good 

times, he takes the same fact of the increase of prices to show the 

evils of inflation, and he bows that the money has lo t its purcha - ing power by referring to the same increase of prices. First, t he argument does good service to show that good times have returned, 

and that we have got plenty of money, and do not need any more, 

and then it comes in to show that there i inflation, and that there a~;~ been a depreciation of the purchasing power of money by the 

addition of 27,000,000. greenback to the circulation! If that n,rgument is good in one place, is it not good in the other The Senator 

cannot make it do duty on both sides of that question, certainly. 

l\1r. CHANDLER. If the Senator will allow me, I tlid not introdnce that as the cause for the good times, but I did bring it in to 

meet the other point. I hope the Senator will give me creilit for no more than I said. . Mr. MORTON. I did not intend to misrepresent the Senator; but 

if I understood him at all, h efh t referred to the quotations of exchange 

aud of good mercn.ntile paper and the price of stocks in New York, 

to show that good times had r eturned and thn.t money was plenty n.nd 

the panic was over and past, and then he resorted to the same argu- ment a few minutes afterwn.rd to show t h at by the addition of 

27,000,000 of greenbacks, the purcha ing power of money had been 

impaired. How prove it was impaired t By the same increa e of 

prices I · 

Now, Mr. President, I wish to call the attention of my friend from 

Rhode Island, [1\!J:. ANTHONY,] who I see is in his seat, to an argu- ment which I understood him to make last night, and which I believe 

is recorded in the reports this morning, that the objection to tah.'ing 

25,000,000 of circulation from New England, ancl part of it from 

Rhode Island, was not because it would make any difference to Rhode Island's business whether the banks were located there or located in 

the West, but simply because it was not right; that they had been 

compelled, in the first place, to take that banking capital, and that now to take it from them would be wrong; but that so far as the 

business of Rhode Island was concerned it did not make any differ- ence whether those banks were located in Rhode Island or located in 

Indiana. That was my friend's argument . Now I have a paper here, signed by the officers of thirty-two national banks in Rhode Island, 

dated the 5th of February instant, and I will ask to h ave this paper r ead, for the pmpose of showing the view that New England bankers 

take inre~ard to this circulation, and to show whether it is important 

to the busmess of New England to have thee banks located in their 

midst or located somewhere else; and I ask the attention of the Sen 

ate to the flocument, for it is a very able one. The Chief Clerk read a follows : 

To the honoTlwle the Senate and H ouse of Representatives of the Congress of the United StafR.s: 

The undersigned, citizens of the State of Rhode Island, repre enting the various 

national banking in titutions of the State, r espectfully repre ent: That the provisions of the sixth section of the act to proviue for the red-emption 

of th 3 per cent. temporar.v-loan certi:fic:1t.es and for an increase of nat ional-bank notes, approved July 12, 1,870, directing in effen<; the withdrawal from t he bankin~ 

associations which were the first to organize under the act to pro rille a nationa.t 

banking currency, &c., of their circulating notes to the amount of '25,000,000, will 

operate, if enforced by any- legi lation providing for machinery to give effect to the 

section of the law r ef erred to, very prejudicially to the intere ts of this State and 

of New England. The national banking capital in the s~.ate amounts to $20,500,000, and the amount of bonds pledgerl for circulation i about 15,000,000. .All of the national banking as ociations orl!anized promptly aft-er the pas age of 

the act, and at the time when it wa of vital importance to the preservation nf the 

Government that the :finaJlcial sy:steru by the act inaugurateu shouhl be accep ted by the country. 

The very large and varied manufacturing and mechanical industries in this State, 

the extent of which will be be t appreciated from the fact tbat th e :first collection district paid a larger internal-revenue tax on manufacture for several years into t.he Treasury than any other in the country, r equire for their succe ful prosecution nll tl..te banking facilities which the State uow has. To contract any part of 

the circulation worilu directly diminish the volume of money r esources, enhance 

the •nlue of currency necessarily r equired for the weekly payment of thou ands of 

opern.tive , and create financial disturbance, all r esulting in the end in an increase 

of burden upon the consumer: The undersigned believe that the attempt to equalize the distribution of currency by withdrawaL'l from tne earlier-organized banking a sociations of a percentage 

of their C-irculation, to be given to as ociations in States and TeiTitories having less than their proportion, would be attended with greater loss to the industrial com- munities which would suffer thereby than could po. sibly result from equalizing 

the proportions of circulation by increa ing the volume of currency to the extent of twenty-five millions for the benefit of associations in the States and Territories hn;ring leRS than their proportion. 

The undersigned therefore pray that t he sixth section of the act above referred to be repealed; ancl they r espectfully protest against the :pa sage of the hill just 

reported from the Finance Committee, to provide for carrymg into effect the sn...'th 

section of said act_ PROVIDE~CE, RHODE lsL.AND, February 5, 1874. 

Mr. MORTON. Now I call the attention of the Senate to the state- ment made by these distinguished bankers and financiers, that it is 

better to equalize the circulation by the issue of additional currency 

to the amount of '11 25,000,000 than to take 25,000,000 from the cur- rency of New England. Tho e men are presumed to under tand the 

subject pretty well, n.nd they think that would be the lesser of the 

two evils; and they say in direct terms, in contravention of the argu- ment that .has been made on this floor, that to take this currency 

from New England does derange their business, and will produce 

financial di asters. It did not require their statement to make me understand t hat, as I thought; but we have been told here tha,t it 

does not make any difference; you can transfer 25,000,000 from the 

East to the West; it does not make a bit of difference where these 

banks are. They say it does. They say it will contract their cur- r ency ; it will diminish their means of paying their operative , and 

will most seriously and unfavorably affe.ct their business. They n,re 

right about it, a,nd those Senators who make the other argument are wrong. Mr. ANTHONY. The Senator appeals to me. Does h e wish me to answer ¥ 

Mr. fORTON. I did not appeal to my friend; but if he desires to 

say anything I will give way. Mr. ANTHONY. I noticed in that memorial the pas age to which 

the Senator from Indiana calls my attention; and as it did not need 

this indor ement of his views to convince him of their souudness, so even the passage to which he refers does not convince me of the sonndne of the Senator' theory. Undoubtedly there are persons in our community who hold to the views which the Senator from Indiana so ably expresse , men whose judgment is entitled to high con id- eration. But although I should be very sorry to see this currency 

withdrawn from the banks to which it was assigned and which took it 

in good faith, I would think it a lesser evil to carry out the law which 

take the money from them than to enter upon a plan of the indefi- nite dilution of the currency. Mr. President, we are not sent here to prevent an injury threatened 

to om own constituents by inflicting a greater injury upon the whole 

country. We are Senators of the United States. "\Ve are to look to 

the currency of the whole country. But taking the narrowest view, 

taking its effect only upon those whom I have the honor in part to 

repre ent, I believe it would injure them more to have the currency 

inflated than it would to have the surplus circulation ta,ken from them. If it took away the bank capital with the circulation it would un- doubtedly take away much of our facilities for business~ but the capi- tal will r emain where it is. It will be loaned, as it is loaned now, for our indu try and for our production, :;md the circulation will come back to us if we need it, and we cannot keep it there if we do not 

need it. I am sorry to differ in any degree from gentlemen whose views are entitled to so great respect, some of whom, I am confident, signed the 

paper, concurrin~ in the general object of it, but not in all the reasons assigned for it. .tint my opinion, a I stated it in the beginning, has 

grown stronger throughout this discussion. 

1\Ir. MORTON. Mr. President, I want to call the attention of the 

Senate to one thing further which would result from the passn.ge of a bill to take $25,0001000 only from the banks in these three or four 

States, andiamindebtedtothe Senator from Wisconsin [ Mr. HowE]for 

the thought, and it is unquestionably correct. The very 'day a. bill is signed to take 25,000,000 from one section of the country and give it 

to another, that is equivalent to a contmction of the curr ncy to the 

amount of 25,000,000; and why ' Because the banks from which it 

is to be taken, understanding that they may be called upon to 1·eturn 

that currency at any day, are not at liberty to lend it. They must 

contract their loans and discounts at once to that amount. There 

must be contraction to that extent, with all its disasters and attending evil . Mr. ANTHONY. If the Senator will allow me, that is an argument 

against his scheme, but it is not an argument again t what I have 

said. It is an argument n.gainst taking away the $25,000,000, ancl there 

I agree with him. I t is not an argument for inflation; there we do 

not agree. Mr. MORTON. I was giviug it a-s an argn.ment to show why the 

passage of this bill would do harm. The Senator says it will not do 
1590 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. . FEBRUARY 18, 

any harm. He entered into a,n a,rgument a few minutes ago to an- swer his own constituents, the representatives of thirty-two banks, 

to show that "they were wrong in their convictions. They give rea- sons why taking from them this $25,000,000 would hurt them. T~e 

Senator thinks their reasons are not good. I give another one; thatis, 

that it would produce contraction at once to the amount of $25,000,000, 

and. that would certainly affect the whole country. . Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I suggest to the Senator from Indiana 

that while it might produce a good deal of embarras~ment to tak~ the 

$25,000,000 or t~e $50,~00,00"0 from t~e East, there lS a _plan which.I 

think the coiDllllttee nnght evolve which would accomplish all that 1S 

desired without producing any embarrassments. Suppose the amount 

of ba,nk ciTculation was increased $25,000,000 or $50,000,000, and ::tt the same time the United States notes were diminished just that amount, 

what would be the result' We have no increa e of paper money; we 

take nothing from the East to give to the West; we gi vc the \Vest 

the banking facilities that they desire. That proposition it seems to me meets the whole que tion. If it does not, I should like to be corrected. 

.A.nd further, Mr. President, unless my friend from Indi::Lna desires 

to resume the floor-- · Mr. MORTON. I give way to my friend from New Jersey. 

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. It seems to me that any increase of bank 

circulation, which ought only to be made, according to my view, with a corresponding decrea>Seof United States note , ought not to be based 

upon existing bonds, but ought to be confined to a new issue of bonds, so that the United States may reap the benefit of the increased value 

of the bonds by reason of this franchise bein~ attached to them. 

Further, the distribution of this new ban.Jr circulation should be 

confined to States that have not their distributive share. And if my 

friend from Indiana will pardon me one word more, there ought _to 

be ::tnother condition. There ought to be in the law provision made 

for a sorting-houses o that the bills of the different banks may at 

stated times be returned to them. The benefit of that is that it com- pels the banks to keep their affairs in a healt.hful condition in order 

that they may redeem, which is a great benefit to the depositors. It 

localizes circulation, the very thing which is sought, while it does not 

destroy the national character of the notes. 

I think that there ought also to be a provision that no one should 

have the benefit of creating a balliring association unless he prouuces 

the license of the Legislature of the State or of the governor of the 

St::tte to that end.. This would secure the proper location of the 

banks and greater integrity and respectability in· the character of 

the persons to whom we commit this valuable franchise. 

Now, 1\Ir. President, I should like to see this subject, without any 

division of sentiment, just refened back to the connnittee. I think we ought to take that course. There are some of us that want it done. 

I think that the usu::tl regard which is paid in the Senate for the opinions of each other calls upon those who think that there is no advantage in doing so to accede to that proposition. I think tha,t the 

Committee on Finl1llce have derived, as I certainly have, great instruction, great benefit, from the debate which has progressed here for the 

la>St fortnight. I think that the very first section of a bill containing 

the provisions which I have thus roughly indicated should be a provisiQn which we all would agree in, t.hat the Treasurer be authorized to 

accumulate gold with a view to specie payment~. That would produce o contraction, but if successful would increase the volume of 

currency. I notice that the chairman of the Committee on Finance 

says it c::Lllllot be done. I believe it ca,n be clone; and to offset the 

opinion of the chairma,n, I would say that the Secretary of the Treasury agrees with me that it can be clone, and that that is the way in 

which we are to fulfill the pledge we have given. 

1\fr. MORTON. Mr. President, I am not wa,nting in respect for the 

opinions of the Committee on Finance; I respect the gentlemen of 

that committee as highly as any person on this floor; but I think we know pretty well what their opinions are. On the same day that the 

bill which we are now considering was reported, the chairman of the 

Committee onFinance introduced a bill himself, whichisonmydesk, 

providing for converting the greenbacks into a 5 per cent. bond to commence on the 1st of January, 1 75 ; the greenbacks to be paid 

out again, either for ordinary e::q1enses or in the purchase of 6 per 

cent. bonds. 

But I wish to call the attention of the Senator from New J ersey to 

the fact that he is not willing apparently that increased banking 

facilities shall be extended to the States South and West upon like 

conditions with those now enjoyed by other Sta,tes. He wants the new banks to be required to bank upon a different bond. He wants 

them to be re(}Uirecl to have the consent of theiT State Legislature as to the chara,cter of the b::tnk, the amount of capital, and the place of 

location. These are all new obstacles thrown in the way of the establishment of new banks. . Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. My friend misunderstands me if he thinks 

tha·fi I am not in favor of aftqrding these facilities to the South and 

West ; and the suggestions I made were not made by way of pro- ducing ob tacles. If those who n.re interested in the creation of these n()W associations do not see the propriety or the benefit of them, I 

would vote for a bill waiving those provisions. I only suggested 

tllem as what occurred to me would be good provisions for any part 

of the country. fr. MORTON. I did not attribute to my friend the motive of desiring-but that is certainly. the effect of his suggestion- that the 

new banks shall not stand upon equal terms with the old banks, but 

must bank upon less profitable bonds, and that they must submit to 

conditions that were not imposed upon the old banks. Now, ~Ir. President, one word in regard to the amendment of my 

friend. from Wisconsin, [1\fr. HowE,] which the Senator from ~lichigan has accepted as a substitute. It is uot before the Senate, but still 

I -will speak of it for a moment. It is that as fast as the new bank 

currency is issued, 85 per cent. of greenbacks shall be retired and 

destroyed; that to procure these ·greenbacks the Government shall 

issue a 5 per cent. bond; that a non-interest-bea,ring (lebt shall be con- vertedinto an interest-bearing debt. I think that is the smallest aro-u- ment there is against the propo ition, so far as the interest is concern~ll. I simply have this to say in reply to that suggestion : If the volume 

of currency is to be confined ab olntely to the pre ent limit, if the 

people of the West and South can only get increased bankino- facilities on that basis, then they would con ent, perhaps, to the retirement of a p~~. of the greenbacks in order to obtain hos~ ~creased banking 

facilities; but so far as I understand the people, It IS not their desire or their wish to diminish tlte volume of the greenb:Lcks. They fnTnish a popular currency in which everybody has confidence, and a large 

part of the people would rather increase the volume of the O'reenbacks 

than diminish the volume. Now, I sugge t to my friend, 1~ one prop- osition stand for itself. First, let us legislate in some way to give tho 

people of the We t and South the increased banking facilities they 

want; and after that has been fixed, then let us come to the consideration of these other questions. I intended to say one word about the quotations of stock prices made 

by the Senator from Michigan, but it is hardly necessary. The iuea 

of quoting fancy stocks in the market in NewYork,oreven<liviuendpaying stocks, a-s an index of the condition of the country is somewha,t new when we know that the best stocks in that market, dividendpaying stocks, the New York Central if you plea e, go up and down 

under the manipulations of the bulls and the bear , while, so far as fancy stocks are concerned., their price does not depend. upon the intrinsic value of the stock or, in fact, upon the ordinary conilition 

that affect the money market. But the Senator from Michigan has 

brought forward these stock quotations as an evidence that the panic 

is all over and gone, that no more money is needed, a,nd that we should 

let thing be just as they are and retire the greenbacks! 

l\fr. SCHURZ. May I ask the Senator from Indiana, a, question Y 

Mr. lORTON. Yes, sir. Mr. SCHURZ. Does the Senator mean to as ert that there has not 

Leen a genera-l improvement, a grea,ter ease of business, all over the 

country 

• 1\Ir . .MORTON. I do not mean to assert that, and I have not as- serted it. - Mr. SCHURZ. Then I should think the argument of the Senator 

from Michigan would not be so bad, after all. :Mr. MORTON. I do not mean to assert th::tt the effects of the panic 

have not all pa-ssed by, and I think the Senator himself will not assert 

to the contrary. There has been some improvement; there has been 

recuperation to some extent all over the country; and the issue of 

27,000,000 of greenbacks in addition to the volume existing la-st September has had very much to do with it; we all know tha,t. From 

the very t.ime that money began to come forth there was relief experienced to some extent; and much of it is to be attributed to the increase 

in the volume of the currency. 

:1\Ir. SCHURZ. Would the Senator say, from his own ·point of view, 

that a further increase of the currency, generally, would be neces- sary for the busine s of the countr now' 

1\fr. MORTON. I have argued the question of the importa,nce, in 

my opinion, of an increase of the currency. The Sena,tor ha-s heard 

it from time to time, and it is not necessary for me to go over it again. The point I was speaking of at the time the Senator from Mis ouTi 

appealed to me was that while there has been an improvement in the 

times-it would be a very sad thing if there had not been-still that 

improvement is not complete. The Senator from Michigan may 

quote the prices of stocks in the New York market; but we know 

very well that the effects of the panic will be found in every county 

in the United States this day. 

1\-Ir. SCHURZ. With the permission of the Senator from Indiana., I desire to ask, if it is shown that in the country money is easy, th::tt 

there is no difficulty in procuring loans at the present moment, would 

not that show, at the same time, that an increa e of the currency 

woulu not be necessary now for the purpose of producing that re nlt 'f 

And for that reason I put to the Sena,tor the que tion whether he 

thinks that, at the present moment, the requirements of bn iness still are such as to make a,n increase of the currency necessary from his 

point of view V . · 

Mr. :MORTON. If it was shown that money was easy everywhere, 

that might be; but that is a thing that c::Lnnot be shown. 

Mr. SCHURZ. Is the Senator tbrough Y · 

Mr. MORTON. If the Senator wants to go on I am through. ~Ir. SCHURZ. Then I wish to make a short statement in regard to 

the condition of the money ma,rket, not in New York, but in other 

parts of the country, a statement based upon the very best kind of 

a,uthority. I am quoting now from the money article of a. Chicago 

paper: 

WED}I"'ESD.AY EVE."i''NG, Fcbi'Ua17J 4. 

The progress toward greater ease in the money markets all over the COlmtry-con· 
1874. CONGRES-SIONAL RECORD. 1591 

tinues. W e have reason to believe that, in default of employment in the East, a large amount. of eastern and Canailian bank capital is now coming to this market 

for loan on warehou.<~e receipts for grain and provisions. As remarked yestenlay, the country west of thla city i1:1 also full of money. In many parts oi the country there is more money offered for loan on mortaages than can be used, and the same is <YOtting to ue the case in this city. This pfet.hora of money is partly due t{} the 

depression of ~orne branches of business, particularly of manufacturing. But a considerable portion of tho manufacturing industry of a year or two ago was of a temporary kind, dependent on the continued extension of railroads for its support. 

This part of manufacturing will not revive, ca~so th~ era of exces~ive railroad 

extension is over, but all tha.t part of manufacturm.r which creates articles of con- sumption by the people of the West must rovh·e before long, because the agricul· 

tnral districts have sold large crops and are rich. 

SATURDAYEVE.siNG, February 7. 

The increase in the supply of money in this market since t.ho beginning of the 

week bas been quite tlecided. The bU?ks are ~~rying a very larg~ amount of grain and provisions, and, therefore, the eas1er co?Idition of the market 1s not so market! 

with them as in the open market. There 1s, however, a larger supply of loanable 

funds in the country west of this city than for sever:1l years before. 

TUESDAY EVENING, February 10. 

The shipments of currency to the wheat-raising sections of the Korth west con- tinue liberal, but the amounts coming in from other parts of the country West and 

Southwest are auout equal to the outward movement. There seems to be an increa o in the supply of money in the markets tnroughout the country from day to clay, and even the most iuveterat(l inflationist must acknowl- edge that the present condition of the money market is a strong argument against 

the theory of a deficiency in the volume of currency. 

WEDXESDAY EVlTh"TTG, February 11. 

We finrl itnecessarytorepeatthesamestoryfromday todaynow, namely, th~tthe supply of loanable funds in the lo c:~,l market is increasing. Tho country shippers arc send ina us an enormous quantity of grain, but the country banks are also sending a great deal of money to their correspondents in this city, mt.h instructions to lend it at 10 per cent. or 'ie s, aud thus while the demand for money to carry b'Taiu 

increa. es, the money which the country has r eceivetl for the large crops already sold is beiug applied to keep up prices. The situation is a,n unusual one, ann amounts in ra.~t to a sort of a combrnation on the part of western capital to sustain 

the prices of western products. If it were not for the heavy r eceipts of grain in 

this city at present, there is little doubt that prices could not only be sustainetl but 

would advance. But if the country shippers keep sending it in at the present rJ.te, 

they will force a general decline, and so e. tablish u lower range of prices for what 

they have on hand yet to sell. The foreign markets seem to be in a condition to take a. large amount at good prices if they are not glutted by t{}O heavy shipments. 

THURSDAY EVENING, February 12. 

Notwithstanding the large amount of money absorbed in carrying grain and provisions in this market- . 

You see speculation has already revived therethe supply of loanable funds in the market is greater than finds employment. It is 

freely offered on demand loans at 8 per cent, a.nd on time lo.ms at 10; but there seems scarcely any inducement to put the rates of money lower than these figures. 

In this market wlien a borrower want.s money at all he wants it bad enough to pay 10 or 8 per cent. for it, and the difference of 1, or even 2 per cent. on short.-time loaus 

would not be sufficient to induce him to embark in any enterprise which he other· 

wise would not. In the eastern markets it is different. Speculators deal to a.larO'e extent in dividend-paying stocks, which fluctuate less in price than western pro'ilncts, and whe~ the rate. o~ interest on money ~ets below the average rate of divi: tlenas on certarn stocks 1t 1s borrowed to carry the stocks or Rpeonla.te in them. In this market, however, the supply of money-be it ever so abundant-seldom puts tho rate of money below 8 per cent. on demand and 10 per cent. on sixty or ninety days. Whatisnotusedattheserates either lies idle or is sent East, where the New 

York banks pay 4 per cent. on current balances. 

FRIDAY EVE~G, Febrttary 13. 

It is acknowled~ed on all sides that money was never more abundant in the West 

than it is just at tue present time. The country west of here is full of money, par· ticularly the sections that have marketed such a large crop of ho~s aml such large 

qu:1ntities of corn in the last three months. Country banks :tina it impossible to use their money at home, and have been sending it into this city for some weekR 

past in largo amounts to loan on collatera.ls at 10 per cent. But the demand is in· 

sufficient to the supply of money. 

Mark you, the demand is insufficient to the supply of money. 

Borrowers see that they can get the money at 8 per cent.. on thirty -day loans just as well as to pay 10, and are making a stand for a. reduction in the ra.te1:1. '\Ve hear 

of some t~ty and sixty day loans at 9 per cent. 1 and doubtless some are made at 8 

per cent. rn the open market, though lenders refuse to :.wknowledge the reduction. 

This accumulation of money in the West seems to be partly due to t.he fact that 

there is less speculation in railway stocks and less borrowing on now railroad bonds 

in ew York City than there used to be before the panic. 

Of course it is. 

The collapse of speculative schemes last f.tll diverted money from those channels of investment and directed it into speculation in western products. 

I SATURDAY EVENTIG, February 14. 

Tho gradual accumulation of money, which has been t.he mo t not..tble feature of 

the local market for the last month, continues. The banks however h2.ve been 

obliged to hold ba~k from loaning so freely on pork and grain, except' with lar"'O 

margins, because the speculation in almost everything is piling np a load th'at 

threatens to break down prices. 

There you see the effect of the accumulation of money, and a super- fluous accumulation of money at that, in the western markets. 

There is, however, plenty of money to loan on satisfactory collateral at lo a.nd 9 

per cent. in some cases for-thirty or' sixty days, and at 8 per cent. on demand. 

I could go on for an hour reading imilar reports from Cincinnati 

Sn.int Louis, and other western cities, and still the Senator a serts that 

there is nut money enough to float tho business of the country. 

Mr. S_HER1~~1AN. I wa~t t? rea~, without interrupting the Senator 

~om Missoun, from the Crncmnat1 Gazette of yesterday on this point 

ill regard to the abundance of money. It has just been laid on my 

ta!Jle, and I will road it : TherE': ha :teen a good demand for discounts in our local market, but the banks 

ba.vo gamed rn_meanR and have met it freely at 8 to9 per cont., anrl although thero 

has been con&'ld rable currency sent to the country in nearly all directions, the 

general supply appears to be larger than a week ago. Yesterday there wa-s a fair 

demand for money, and rates were unchanged. In t he open market money is very 

plenty,_ a~d prime uusiuess paper is readily placed at 9 to 10 per cent. and chiefly at the lllSide figure. ' 

That is yesterday's Cincinnati Gazette. 

Ir. FERRY, of Michigan. Inasmuch as the Senator from Missouri ha poken of t.he ~usine ·s i_nterests and an alleged plethora of 

money, I want to call his attention to a concern in his State the 

glass wo~ks at Crystal City, with a capital of $250,000, and with no outstanding notes, and were last month unable to ne()'otiate a note of ,,;5,000 upon the ordinary rate of 10 per cent. ; that is i~ his own State. Then I might show him other business interests in Chicac•o and 1\lilwankoe of like character. I think the Senator is not thro;n so much 

in the ch:;muels of business a ~orhaps strictly bnsine s men ; and I can tell him from my own oxpenence and knowledO'e cominrr through. 

b~1sinoss channels, that eve~ in ~he city of <;:hicag~, take a:y branch or lmsmes~, take the lumuermg illteres~ for rnstance, in which, by the 

way, I am illterested, and know something more about it perhaps than 

the Senat.or lrimself, and I can state to him that men of undonbte<l 

credit b efore and since the panic cannot obtain accommodations at 

bank. Men, too, who have had lines of discount from ·10 000 to 

$25,000, and eve~ 30,000, fmtl themselves unable to get discm'mts of even $5,000, and ill consequence have had to suspenu their business. Mr. SCHURZ. The Senator ~ays that men of undoubted credit 

before the panic are not able to negotiate their notes now. They 

may have been men of undoubted credit, before the panic but may 

not be men of undoubted credit after the panic. ' 

1\fr. FERRY, of Michigan. I would not state a fact of that kind as illustrative of the point I am attempting to make. The Senator 

from Mi souri is too astute to suppose that I meant a case of q. man who had credit before t he panic, and had no credit afterward. That 

would be a comparison that would hardly be admissiule before an 

American. Senate. I a~ ta,lking about men who stood a.fter thn panic a.s they did before, owmg no more u,nd no less; men who are accus- tomed to business transactions, and who have commercial credit. T!'Lke t.J:.e line of commission-men in the city of Chicago, and doing 

busilless ill the pnTchase and sale of lumber; men who were favored 

wit~ large line_s of _discounts, and n?w cannot negotiate like paper, 

whiCh they easily did before the pamc; and men owincr no more now than they did then. 1 put that to the Senator as illustratinO' the 

very reverse of what he has been quoting and commentinrr up~n° :mu directly affecting a branch of the business interests of the land. There 

is more significance in the fa~t than in these call-loan rate in New York. 

I can tell the S_enator thn.t the gilt-edged paper which ha.s been spoken 

of here, even ill Wall street, cannot. be negotiated short of 10 to 15 

per cent., unless bolstered by colla.terals of the best kind. The low 

rates apply only to mon~y upon call, supported by undoubted collatemls equivalent to United States bonds. Now while I am up let me speak of a,nother fact. Take the North- west Rail way Company, as well known as t hat company is, and the 

business it is doing. That company issued a note, indorsed by the 

Milwaukee Rolling-Mill Company, a large iron concern-and the Sen- ator from Wisconsin [ fr. HowE] before me, knows somethinrr of 

that, or if not, his collea.gue, now in the chair, does, resiclincr a~ he 

does in the city of :Milwaukee. That railway company's r7ote for 

22,0001 i.J;ldorsed by this rolling-mill company, with a p::tid-up capita,! 

of a mtllion and a half, could not be negotiated last montlt in New 

York, Boston, or New Bedford, short of 11 to 12 per cent. 1 put tha,t 

to the Senator a a fact coming to me from a party interested; and I 

say that the representations of papers that are gotten up in some measure in the interest of the opposition which we have tu combat 

here, are hardly a fair exhibit of the real condition of business inter- ests and their relations to the money centers of the country. Now, let me cite :tnother in tance. I know of a bank of excellent 

c_redit in_Michigan, doing business in Ne'_Y York, having ordinarily :1 

line of 'vO,OOO, and yet unable to get a dtscount at that bank whero 

its business is done; and yet the Seuatorthinks that money is plenty, 

and that anybody can get it on proper security. Let me state another case. A bank in my own city, that pa.ssed 

through the panic unscathed while banks around it suspended, and 

holding a line of discmillts before the panic of 50,000, to my own per- sonal knowledge could not get a 10,000 loan in the city of New York. 

If a national bank whose integrity was tested by the panic cannot 

obtain moderate accommodat.ion in the city of New York, can it justly 

be said that the plethora of money is what the Senator has stated or that the supply is meeting the expectation of the country or ~ lieving it in this emergency . Mr. SCHURZ. Now it seem to me that the gentlemen who advo- cate expansion-I had almost said 'inflation," but that term is 

offensive to the Senator ll'O~l Michigan- must be exceedingly hard 

pressed for arguments, when m r ply to the market reports of papers 

that are recognized as good mercantile authority they ha.ve nothing 

toshowbut lettersfrom privatepersonswhocannot get all tbemoney 

they want. Of course there are a great many firms in this country 

tha,t find it difficult to raise all the loans and discounts which tho~r desire. There always have been; there always will be. But shall we when a business man WTites to one of us sa,ying, "I cannot get money 

at a convenient rate of interest for my purpo es,' nt once jump rirrht 

into the breach aud ju t issue so n.nd so many millions more of ~re deemable currency' Why, gentlemen,. what absurdjty! Of course, 
1592 CONGRESSIONAL1 RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

there are a great many people in the country who have not got as much 

money as they want. Dut here we have a generu.l report upon the state 

of business in the country, and when I lay that as good authority-for such it is-before the Senate, Senators are at once on their feet and 

say, "I have got a letter from this man and from that man." Is 

that argument 

Let me read to the Senator a little more from a market article of 

t.he Chicago Tribune, which will shed some light upon some particu- lar branches of business. It is taken from the weekly report of February 13; I have saved it because it is quite interesting: 

While it is not probable that the farmers of the West understood this well enoughThat is to say, that the collap e of speculative schemes last fall 

diverted money from those channels of investment and directed it to 

speculation in western products. 

'While it is not probable that the farmers of the W est under tood thiR well enough to think that prices of western prouucts were being sustaineu by speculation that must sooner or later come to an end and allow prices to recede, they have at least, 

for once in many years, been sensible enough to sell their pork, and corn, and whea.t freely, while they would bring good prices. Thls iR doubtless yet the feeling of the 

wheat-growers and shippers of Northern Iowa and .Southern Minnesota, who are sending their wheat to market in such large quantities now. For nearly a month past there ha-s been a moderato bnt constant movement of cur- r ency from 8onthern and Central illinois, Indiana, and Michigan to this city, and 

from here to Northern Iowa, Southern :Minnesota, and :Northern Wi consin. Some 

of the banks here estimate that not less than 3,000,000 of currency have been sent to half a dozen towns like hlcGre{{or, Lansinf!, aml ·winona, in the great wheatraising distiict northwest of here, m the la-st four weeks. Scarcely any currency · has come back: from that direction yet, from whieh it may be inferred that it is in 

active circulation in that quarter, as it wa-s in the corn and pork raising distiicts six or eight weeks ago, and that the heavy receipts of wheat will continue. In this 

view it seems scarcely possible that prices of wheat can be sustained even at their 

present figures. But, aside from this aspect of the ca-se, the mildness of the win- ter all over the world has ha-d an effect on the foreign markets, by permitting ex- :ports of wheat frt>m Otlessa. during months when it bas seldom been practicable in 

former years. 

Now, I desire the Senator from Michigan to give me his attention a moment. 

Notwithstanding the abundance of money in this city, and throughout the W est, 

it is frequently remarked that "trade is dull." This is true of some lines of busi- ne s. The wholesale dry-goods trade is dull, but it always is so at this season of the 

year. Some branches of manufacturing are much depres ed, and the retail trade 

of the city is also dull; partly because manufacturing is depressed, and partly becau e there are too many people in the business ; in fact, the t endency of the last ten years has been to an exce sive competition in the business of buying and selling 

goods. Too many people have been trying to live by exchanging commodities instead of producing something; and it is the desire to galvanize trade into a tem:po- rary activity that makes the superfluous traders imagine there is a necessity for more currency, and induces them to circulate petitions asking Con!ITess to inflate 

tho currency. The fact is that trade is not unnecessarily depressed, f>utthere is un- doubtedly an excess of traders. In proof of the statement that trade is not depressed it may be mentioned that nearly three times as much lumber was sohl by Chicago flealers to the country west of this city during the month of .January last a-s was sold during .January o£ any previous year. 

And yet I suppose the Senator from Michigan may bring to me a letter from a lumber merchant who has not sold as much as he desired 

to sell. 

There is perhaps no branch of Tmsiness transacted in this city which is so good an index to the state of trade and the financial condition of the coun';ry tributa.ry to this city a-s the lumber trade. Farmers never buy lumber for fences and other 

improvements unless they are prosperou , and when they are so trade is good. 

We conclude, therefore, that the impression that trade is depressed arises from 

the fact that the abnormal stimulation of trade from the excessive railroad building of the ten years np t.o about a year ago has been withdrawn, and left trade to diioinish to a legitimate, he~ thy volume. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. So far as the Senator has referred to 

the lumber interest of Chicago, I have not the official facts here ; 

they are at my rooms, and it is not of importance enough to send 

there for them; bnt I think it may safely be said that I know more about the lumber interest of Chicago than the Senator or the writer 

of that article in the paper he has read. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I do not know anything about it, bnt read from one of the first papers of the West a market report on that subject. 

Mr. FERRY, of Michigan. I have mingled ·with lumbermen, and 

have known something of their bnsine s for years; and I state on my 

responsibility here, upon the knowledge I have of my own business, 

and indirectly of the business of others who are operating in the same line, that lumbermen never ha-d so dnll a season within the last ten 

years as they have had this pa-st full and up to the pre ent time, and 

sales have been much less than years past. As incident to this I quote 

from one of the land officers in Michigan, a lumbering region where 

entries of pine lands keep pace with the healthy condition of the 

money market : 

The cash receipts of this institution during the last three months were ,400. 

To show how Government business, n-s well as others, is affected by tho panic, or whatever it is callecl, it might be incidentally stated that the receipts um-ing the corTesponding time in 1871 were over 20,000. 

There, in the corresponding time, was $20,000 against $1,400. I see 

the Senator from Missouri smiling, and perhaps he will say that that 

is a single instance. I refer to it because it is immediately connected 

with the lumber interest of Chicago, of which the Senator has spoken. Pine land in the States of lllichigan and \Visconsin, generally sought as good investments, do not seem to invite entry where this land oftice 

is loca,ted, and is a sign:i.fica.nt indication of the money market. 

1\fr. CHURZ. What is the date of that 'I · 

Mr. FERRY, of Michiga,n. Last month. 

1\l.r. SCHURZ. 'Vhy now, Mr. Pl:esident , the Senator must thinkdoes think, I see it upon his faoo-how excessively weak is the 

argument to quote, against the statement of a mercantile authority 

from which it appears that money is plenty there, a letter from a land office which in former years sold more than it does now. It 

shows simply that less money is being inve ted in wild-land speculation. That is all. But can yon draw a conclusion from that single 

fact upon the general condition of the business of the country Y 

Everybody knows that you cannot. 

1\fr. }...,EHRY, of Michigan. I wish merely to say that I put fact 

against statement; and whether the statement or the fact be weak, 

I leave the country to judge. 

?tfr. MORTON. I simply want to say, in answer to all these news- paper scraps, which the Senator from 1\lis onri has so diligently collected, that they prove nothing. Some of those articles are evidently 

political. I see the Senator from Missouri laugh. The Senator is 

better at laughing than he is at arguing. I have observed that fre- quently. Some of those articles are eviJentJ.y political on their face. But taking them as being true, which some of them are not, what do 

they 11rove They show, wh~t we all know to be the fa.ct, that nearly 

all public enterprises are suspendeJ; there is scarcely a railroad now in process of construction. Mr. SCHURZ. 1\l.r. President--

1\fr. MORTON. Will the Senator allow me to go on Y 

1\fr. SCHURZ. Certainly. I do notwi h the Senator to yield tome nnle s it is convenient for ·him to do so. 1\Ir. MORTON. Very well; I give way. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I merely wish to ask what the Senator meant by 

saying that some of the ·e articles were evidently political Does he mean that they come from 1·epnblican, Jemocratic, or other sources, 

u.ncl are therefore not r eliable Y 

Mr. MORTON. I do not know what papers they come from. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I have told you from the Chicago Tribune; but if 

it suits the Senator better I mil also make the same quotation from 

the Inter-Ocean, and the Chicago Times. It is the same thing all the 

way around. · l\fr. LOGAN. I will stat-e to the Senator that he cannot produce 

any statement from the Inter-Ocean to prove that money i plenty in 

that country, that the people do not desire any more, only so far that it 

is easy compared with wlh'1tit has been. I do say this by way of drawing from the Senator from Mi ouri these smiles that he imagines are produced by his experience and great knowled~e; bnt he reaJs here a quotation to show that money can be borrowed at8 or 9 per cent. uow.· The time has never been that yon could not borrow money on call 

at 8 or 9 per cent. in Chicago when it wa to loan, the same as you 

borrow money in New York at 3 or 4 per cent. on call. That does not 

prove that money is plenty, by any mean . Bnt I have tated time 

and again that on year loans you cannot borrow in that country, and 

I repeat that I do not believe you can to-day fo.J: les than lt or 2 per 

cent. a month. I will say to the Senator that thi very morning I 

rode to the Navy Department with a banker from Chatsworth, Illinois, one other gentleman being with me, and this gentleman said 

that at that place in Illinois money wa being loaned now at from 

3 to 4 per cent. a month; and he is a man who onght to know that 

whereof he spoke. 

But we are told that these statements of newpapers must be received. 

They prove but this : that there is no time and never has been a time 

when money could not be borrowed on call, if there wa-s any money 

to be had, at a rate of interest of 8 or 9 per cent. But I ask the Senatorfrom Missouri, who la.ughecl at the Senator from Indiana when he 

spoke of these as political articles, does he not know that there is not an article on the money qne tion in the Chicago Tribune, and has not 

been for three months, that has not been directly against the gentle- men in this Chamber and elsewhere who are in favor of an increase 

of the currency Does he not know that they are all colored in that 

direction Does he not know that that paper is a strict sup1)orter of 

his theory of immediate resumption of specie payments; in a word, 

that it tries to prove that money is plenty, and has been all the time Y 

Does he not know that even during the panic, while banks were tumbling and the people breaking in Cl.ticago, this very paper then produced articles in reference to money that aided in and caused the su - pension of some of the best banks in the city of Chicago 'f .And yet it 

is produced hero as authority to prove that there is plenty of money 

all through the country! 

I do not wi h to discuss this question as one depending on what 

any paper may say. I do not care wha,t they may say ; I do not care what the money articles are. I remember reading one in the New 

York Times, a republican paper, a few days ago, in which it an- nounced to the country tha,t the people of the 'Vest did not know 

anything about finance. Thi same Chicago Tribune, when this di- en ion first commenced, said that snch men as 1\IoRTOX and otl1er 

gentlemen, naming them, were fit to be voted for by fools! Ancl yet 

the Senator says that the e articles do not tend in a political dir c- tion. I do not know that they tend toward democracy or republicanism, but they do tend in the directiun of opposition to an increase 

of the currency and in favor of an immediate resumption of sp ie 

pa,yments, because that is the theory of the paper, and all these arti- cles tend in that direction. 1\fl:. SCHURZ. If the Senator from Indiana will yield to me jnst a moment. 'When the Senator from Illinois says that thi paper i in 

fa,vor of pccie payments, it is quite true, and I know it. Bnt let me tell him that the great papers of the country generally are against 
1874 .. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 

inflation, and in favor of as early a resumption of specie payments as possible-the great papers generally, I say, with few: if any, exceptions; and I will tell him why. Because they know that they are acting 

under a great responsibility in stating true fa~tl;~ to the cmmtry, :1nd 

they have altogether too much sense to be in favor of anything else. 

Hence the whole leading press is in favor of specie payments and 

aO'ainst inflation. But if he says that the statements I read from the Chlcago Tribune are political articles, I will quote the Inter-Ocean, a paper which he probably prefers: MONDAY EVE.NING, February 9. 

There was very little change to note in the course of the loc::tJ. money market. 

Money is comparatively easy, and with a. good inquiry from the grain and }Jrovision 

interest bunkers are enabled to place the greater portion of ofterings at the legal mte of interest. The mercantile branch of trade includes few borrowers, and their wants o.re easily supplied. 

TUESDAY EVENING, February 10. 

There is no particular change to note in the course of loc::tJ. finances. The demand 

for money is only mouerat.ely active, and the supply of loanable funds quite lar~e. 

Operators in grain and provisions are the principal borrowers, .the recent reduction in values inducing a. better inquiry on speculative aooount. The st.ocks here are quite large, whicli has led to the reduction in prices. Money iR decidedly easier, and 

parties can obtain accommodations readily at the legal rate of interest, though bank- ora generally give short-date paper the preference. The inquiry from the merc..'l.ll· 

tile branch of trade is rather light, and parties succeed in obtaining :ill the fa.vors 

they desire. On the street there is more money offering, and ra.tes of interest rule 

little higher than those current at the banks. 

That is the statement of the Inter-Ocean. Does that suit the Senator better' 

Mr. LOGAN. I am not doubting the fact stated in any money article that the rate of interest is as stated, or that money is not ea-sy, 

compn,red with whn,t it wn,s two months ago. No one questions that. 

What I said was this: thn,t I defied the Senator to produce an article 

from the Inter-Ocen,n, <tnd pn,pers like that, stating that there wa-s plenty of money in the country; n,nd he has not produced :1ny such 

thing. 

So far as this question of en,se in the money market, oompared with 

its condition a few weeks ago, is concerned, this is not doubted ; 

because the Treasury has been pouring out the $44,000,000 reserve, 

and that has been easing the money market to a certain extent. 

More than thn,t: if the rate of interest is lower now than it was a few weeks ago, it only proves that if the money is increased it de- creases the rate of interest, contrary to the argument of the gentle- man some time since, who said that a larger amount of money would 

increa-se the mte of interest. 

Now, 1\fr. President, I must say to the Senator from Missouri, when 

he talks in this Chn,mber with such :fiercene s that he expected to 

:tlarm somebody, he mistakes himself. He says that all the great 

p:1pers of the country that have any seiLSe are in favor of specie payments; therefore we are to infer that all the great men are, also; 

that is, himself and a few others. Greatness is not a general commod- ity. It is circumscribed by bounds, like the national banks, and 

minds of a few individuals. "All the great papers I " What great 

papers do you .talk about, sir Y The great papers! The Chicago 

'fribune supported Mr. Greeley in connection with the Senn,tor from 

Missouri, and is therefore great in his esteem. Also the Chicago 

Times; that agrees with the Senator in all he says-or he agrees with 

it, I do not know which. l\Ir. SCHURZ. The Inter-Ocean. 

Mr. LOGAN. The Inter-Ocean! I beg pardon. The Inter-Ocean 

stands against your doctrine of specie payments at present, and is in 

favor of an increase of the currency; but it is not a great paper, 

according to the theory of the Senator. After all, what does thn,t prove~ That great papers and small papers are in favor of this or thn,t 

thing. Does that prove anything¥ Does that prove that they are right or wrong, because some of them happen to agree with the Senator' It proves no such thing. It is :1 question of argument before 

the people, a to whether the people should be restricted in their 

privileges or not. Are all the great papers in this country in favor of 

monopolies Y Will the Senator say that? Are n,ll the great papers in 

this country in favor of restricting the power that belongs to money 

within the hands of :1 few people, a-s he is Y Are all the great papers 

of this country in favor of the rich n,nd against the poor; in favor of 

the money power ; in favor of great monopolies that he speaks for, 

that grasp all the money in opposition to the views of the people' 

Is that what the great papers are for? Is that what the great men are forf 

The gren,tness of my friend, with the great pa.pers that stand at hls 

back, says to the people of this country, "The banks, the moneyed power 

of this l::t.nd, the men who hn,ve the power given to them by Congre , shall themselves wield this great influence over this nation by the 

power in their hn.nds." Do they fear that a few mech::mics may pro bably a sociate themselves together and form a bank for the benefit of 

their class of peopl ~ The Senator from Missouri in n,ll his greatne s says, "No; this privilege belongs to the great clas to which I belong; 

you poor mechanics hall have nothing to do with it." If a few 

farmers de ire to associate themselves together to form a bank that 

t,hey may be a~commodated in their own communities, the great 

Senator from 1\fis ouri sn,ys, "No, sirs; stand aside. This privilege, under the law of Congress, belongs to a certain elect class that I am the peculiar advocate of to..day on the floor of the Senate." :Mr. SCH RZ. Will the Senn,tor permit me to explain Y 

Mr. LOGAN. Certainly; with the greatest plen,sure. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I hn,ve not had the privilege of addre sing the Senate on the question of national banks at all, that I am a, ware of; and 

if the Senator will refresh his memory only a single moment, I think 

he will remember that I hn.ve aid nothin~ at all of the kind. I have 

not opened my lips on the question of national banks, not in a single 

instance. 

Mr. LOGAN. Is that all f 

Mr. SCHURZ. Certainly. Mr. LOGAN. Well, I will proceed, then. Sir, the language that you 

used on this floor was that all the papers that "had any sense were in favor of an immediate return to specie payments" and sustained 

you; as much u.s to say that n,ll the others were fools, and tha,t all who 

controverted your proposition were fools in this country. 

Mr. SCHURZ. If the Senator will permit me- - Mr. LOGAN. Yes, ~ir. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I did not say that, either. 

Mr. LOGAN. Whn,t did you say' Mr. SCHURZ. Simply that the gren,t responsible papers of this 

country h ad too much sense to be in favor of infiation- - 1\fr. LOGAN. Ah! 

Mr. SCHURZ. And that they were in favor of as early a return to 

specie payments as possible. I did not mean to indicate that nobody 

else had seme but those papers; and if the Senator would look at all 

this thing calmly, with that pirit of kindness which we are in the 

habit of using in debate, I think he would not makethemistakesthn,t 

he has made as to what I said and what I did. 

Mr. LOGAN. Well, inasmuch as the Senator from illinois seems not to be endowed with the spirit of kindness that the Senator from 

Mis ouri is, I suppose I ought to be forgiven for my want of that 

peculiarity that belongs to himself. 

l\Ir. SCHURZ. I do not he itate for a moment to forgive the Senator on the spot. [Laughter.] 

Mr. LOGAN. Now, I will see for a moment what the Senator from 

Missouri did say, and see whether his language carries with it some- thing offensive or not. All the great papers in the country have too 

much sense to be for anything but a resumption of pecie payments; 

that was his language. What does he mean by that All the papers 

of sense are for that, and all the papers without sense are against it. 

Is not that what it means' Therefore all Senators who are for that 

proposition are Senators with sense, and all the Senators who are 

against that proposition are Senators without sense; I a-sk if that is 

not the meaning of the language used by the Senator¥ 

M:r. SCHURZ. If the Senator wants an explanation of my language, 

I am ready to give it to him. Mr. LOGAN. I did not ask it. I asked if that was his meaning! 

Mr. SCHURZ. I will just state the meaning of my language. 

Mr. LOGAN. Very well. 

Mr. SCHURZ. I advocated a certain line of policy. I should not 

have advocated that line of policy had I not thought that that line 

of policy was more sensible than the other side. Therefore n,dvocn,ting 

that line of policy, I believe that those who go with me in that direction ar ore sensible than those who do not; aud if I understand 

the Senator from lllinois rightly, he is subject to that snme weakness. 

l\Ir. LOGAN. Very well. I am very sorry to say that the Senator's 

opinion of himself is not appreciated by the country. [Laughter.] 

Mr. SCHURZ. The Senator will permit me to say that I am very 

glad to know that the Senator's opinion of himself is appreciated by 

the cotmtry. [Laughter.] 

Mr. LOGAN. I am very glad to know it too. The PRESIDENT p1·o tempo1'e. The Chair must remind the gal- leries that applause or laughter is out of order. 

l\Ir. LOGAN. The Senator and myself agree precisely on these two 

propositions. Now I will say that the Senator from Missouri must 

not imagine, inasmuch as he has made himself the great leader in this· fight, that he can stand on this Senate floor and crush every man out 

of existence. Other men have the same rights here and the sn.me privileges that he has. When he casts these insinuations n,bout sense, 

he may think it is fine language to be used in the Senate. Perhaps 

it is. He may think it is O'entle n,nd moderate n,nd nice and splendid 

to be used here by a gentleman of reputation as an orator of cb ic 

attainments. He may think that his repartee will win for him golden 

lanrels. He may imagine that he has the power of Jove, just come down from Mount Olympus, to send his thunderbolts through the 

Senate Chamber. He may have all these imaginations in reference 

to himself; but unless he can sustain them by argument, they are worth but very little before the Senate or before the country. 

I have <;aid the e things because I have been provoked into it by 

the remarks of the Senator alluding to the want of sense in papers 

and people. I had no idea of entering into this discu ion at all, but merely rose to say and to reiterate what I have said, that I received 

the information I have stated before the Senate time and time again as to the rate of interest in the country, generally in the West, especially in my State; and to state the fact that I wn,s reminded this 

morning, by a gentlemen with whom I rode ·totheNn,vyDepa,rtment, 

of the same state of affairs that I have mentioned heretofore in the 

Senate, and I give it to the Senate for what it is worth. 

l\1r. SCHURZ. I want to detain the Senator from Indiana only a single moment to say one word. The Senator from illinois must be 

n,ware that nothing could be further from my de ire than to get up a qun,rrel with him. Nothing in the world was further from my mind; 
1594 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

and I do not think there was the least occasion for all the magnificent 

noise and fury he indulged himself in, since I did nothing but quote 

the market reports of the Chicago Tribune. If the facts contained 

in these market reports are such as to confute the argument of the 

gentlemen on the oth~r side, it is the bult of the facts and not .m~ne. 

'l'herefore my good fnend and myself shoul<;l not lose our equamDll.ty, 

for I can a ure him that I am not responsible for those facts whwh 

so violently disturb him. Mr. MORTON. At the time I was interrupted by the Senator from 

Missouri I was about to ay, or did say, that nearly all public enter- prises in this country were suspe~de<.l. Th~re is scarcely a railroad now beina constructed anywhere ill the Umted States. Very many are eft~ a half finished condition. The iron works furnishing iron 

t o lay those roads are also suspended, and a great many branches of 

industry connected with railroads are suspended. From the scraps 

of newspapers read by t?-e Senator: from Missouri .it appears that 

there is a general depressiOn. I believe the remark ill several was, a 

very great depres~ion of. the ~ann!act~~g interest. T.hat: is so .in 

Illinois, in Iowa, ill Indiana, ill Missouri, ill Pennsylvama, ill Ohio, 

and everywhere else. Mr. President, there is the same volume of money in the country 

to-day that there was before t he panic; but there is not the same amount of business to nse it. A great many branches of business that were using money on the 15th of September are now not using 

a dollar; they are suspended. . . . Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. And therefore less IS reqmred. 

1\fr.l\fORTON. Less is required just now. Why 'I Because business 

is suspended ancl partially broken down; but is that an argument to 

prove that we have got enough money 'I There may be enough to-day, but that does not prove that there is enough when business has been revived. It comes directly short; and there is the fallacy of the 

argument of the Senator from Missouri. I will take his own city of 

Saint Louis-- :Mr. SCHURZ. l\1r. President--

Mr. MORTON. Will the Senator allow me to go on 'I 

Mr. SCHURZ. The Senator speaks of my argument. I did not 

make any. Mr. MORTON. I refer to the city of Saint Louis. I think I may say that a very considerable portion of the manufacturing business of Saint Louis is suspended to-day. They are not using money. They were large borrowers in goou times, and now they do not bor- row at all. How is it with your iron works at Carondelet, five miles 

b elow your city 'I I believe nearly all were suspended a few weeks 

ago, and a part of them are now suspended, as I ~m in!ormed. . So . with regard to a great many other branches of husme s m that City; 

they are not borrowers now because they are crushed for the time 

being. But the Senator uses that as an argument to prove that money 

is plenty! Sir, when business is broken down in the country of course that business is not using money; the money is then lying idle for the 

time being; but is that an argument to prove that money is plenty 

and the volume of currency large enough' Will it be large enough 

when times have revived and business agairl. springs up as it existed 

onlv last fall f 

The answer made by the Senator from Pennsylvarua [ Mt·. CAMERON] 

to the Senator from Michigan [l\1r. CHAJ."'IDLER] was a complete answer to the whole thing. Why wa.s money plenty in the city of New York 

yesterday f Why can it be had there at a comparatively low rate of 

interesU Because it is not demanded elsewhere, and because the 

demand for money in Now York to-day is small; hundreds and thou- sands of men are out of employment everywhere, marching in col- umns through the streets and asking for bread; manufactories, work 

of every kind, !l.re suspended to a greater or less degree everywhere; 

not using money because they cannot. And because money is lying 

.idle from this cause we are told that money is plenty! That is the 

kind of fallacy resorted to by my friend from l\lissouri. 1\Ir. MORRILL, of Vermont. Does the Senator from Indiana think 

it would improve the condition of labor to have more money lying 

idle f 

Mr. 1\fORTON. Ah, Mr. President, that does not meet the point at 

aU. There is a revival of business going ou partially1 the result of 

the fact that the Government has put twenty-seven millions of addi- tionallegal-teuders into circulation; but bosine s cannot be revived 

successfully on the old volume of currency. The wants of the country 

h ave been growing. There has been a growing stringency for the last 

four or five years. While the volume of currency has not been in- creased the volume of busine s has, and this stricture has been 

increasing from day to day. I would ask my friend from Vermont 

what is the definition of "money;" what is the meaning of "money ¥" 

It is a medium of exchange. It is the instrument of buyj.ng and selling. That is the simple definition of it; and as exchange increases, as the 

amount to be bought and sold increases, so is there an increased use for money and you want a little more of it. When there is but little 

business cloin~ comparatively, as t here is now, there is less use for money than wnen there is a large business doing. 1\Ir. Pre ident, I have been betrayed into saying more on this point 

than I intended. 

Mr. SCOTT. l\Ir. President, there are two 13tatements made by the 

Senator from Indiana to which I wish to call his attention, more for 

the purpo e of getting an answer from him than of making a.n argument. In speaking of the various communities in which bru;iness is 

now depressed or busine s enterprises are suspendetl, he mentions 

l\fi souri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. His statement, I 

suppose, is in a measure correct. There are many business uter- prises suspended in those States. He made another sta.tement, how- ever, which bears upon the present condition of tho country. It was this : that there is as much money in the country to-day as there was before the suspension. Mr. MORTON. As much currency. l\Ir. SCOTT. As much currency in the country as there was before 

t he uspension of busine ·s. Business wa being successfully conducteu upon the volume of currency that we had before the suspensimt, and 

I would ask him, therefore, whether there is not anot h r element 

crippling the busine s of t he country than the wnnt of the cmT ncy 

Is ·it not the want of confidence-the distrust., not of the currency, lmt 

of banks and bankers And would it not be found so if he hatl be- fore him a statement of. the condit ion of the banks throughout the 

whole country I have not that before me at this moment, but I ven- ture the assertion t.hat the tate of the banks throughout the country 

would how that from 25 to 33 per cent. of the deposits which they 

held before the 18th of la t September have been withdrawn a,nd haYe 

not found their way back yet. It is true the deposits are large in 

the Atlantic cities-in New York, Philadelphia, aml elsewhere ;' but 

take the state of the deposits throughout the interior, and it shows that 

the community has not yet recovered from the hock which their con- fidence received by the suspensions of the 1 th of September and 

tho e which followed it. The money, the currency, is hoardecl just as much as gold was hoarded in former time . The hanks in the r egions where industrial enterpri es were in progress cannot give the 

accommodations that they could before the suspensions occmred. And 

it is that element that has as much to do with the tardiness of revival 

of business a the want of an increased paper currency. Now, l\lr. President-- 1\Ir. lORTON. May I make a suggestion1 

l\lr. SCOTT. Certainly. l\lr. MORTON. The statement of the Senator in regard to the 

withdrawal of depo its and the failnre to return them is true. Th re are not deposits to the same extent there were before the panic; con- sequently there is not the same. amount of money to loan that there was before the panic; there is not the arne abunda,nce of money to be 

loaned a.s there was before the panic; and that is the an wer to the 

Senator from ~fissouri. There is less business now to demand money 

than there was before the panic, anu that my friend from Pennsylvania himself will not dispute. Mr. SCHURZ. If my friend from Pennsylvania will allow me to 

a.sk a question. The Senator from Indiana ays that t h re is not the same amount of money to loan. Is not the same amount of moHey 

in existence' 

Mr. 1\IORTO:N. My friend from Penn ylvania says it is hoarded ; 

there is the answer. Mr. SCOTT. Let me put a. question to my friend from Indiana in answer to his suggestion. He admits that the want of confidence 

has led to the hoarding of money, and that is the reason why bu i- ness enterprise are suspended. Does he suppose that it will in pire 

confidence to i sue more paper money¥ Will the people who are hoarding it now scatter it broadcast if they get it by issuing more? ~1r. MORTON. That has alway been there ult. · fr. COTT. I recall two similes u eel by the Senator in the early 

period of this debate, when he and I were laboring for a common purpose, as I doubt not we are yet, however we may ~er as to the 

means, to secure a proper measure of relief for the bu iness interests 

of the country. One wa that he had often cen a load which was stuck in the mud taken out by putting an additional horse to the 

team; and all he wanted in the busiues embarrassment of the conn- try at that time wa the a{;lditional hor ·e. He u ed another, which I 

may as well state now : that whefi: the well was dry n,nd the sucker 

only a little out of order, all that wa needed was a bucket of water 

to pour in and start the pump and you might supply the family with 

water for a whole day. I think t he debate here has brought out the 

fact that the Senate are willing to give him the horse if he will give a urance that when returned to the stable he will not be climini bed 

10 per cent. in va.lue; or we will give him the bucket of water if we have the a surance that by starting the pump we shall not flood the 

whole neighborhood. We are in danger of an inunuation upon this 

subject of a.n irredeemable paper currency. I was willing with the Senator, when we came here, if we could have 

done it at once, to have relea ed the banks from there erve on cu:cnla- tion, for the purpose of giving him the horse, or the bucket of water 

to pour upon the stagnant wheels of busine s. That woultl have been 

utilizing existing cuuency, not increasing it. But while 've have been 

debn,ting thi question, confidence has been gradually restored; and 

the increased depo its going to New York and Phila.delphia give the 

evidence that the people are again willing, a.t lea. t to orne extent, 

to place the money now in circulation where it ma,y be u ed for busi- ne s purposes. I hope we shall get a preventive that will stop it 

from flowing to Philadelphia or New York, simply for the purpo e of 

speculation; but I am not willing to pa s by the r€'.mark of the ena- tor from Indiana, about prostrate lmsines and the upply of money, 

without calling the attention of the enate to t he fact that it i not so much the want of a sufficient amount of circulating medium t.bat 

prevents the revival of business enterprises as it is tho want of that 
1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1595 

confidence which received such a terrible shock by the susnensions of 

the 18th of September and those following it, and without suggesting 

that the then existing state of the currency may have had much to 

do with producing the speculations that led to those suspensions. 

The PRESIDENT pro te1npore. The question is on the amenurnent 

offered by the Senator from Pennsylvania [.Mr. SCOTT] to the instruc- tions proposed by the Senator from North Carolina, [Mr. :MERRil\WN,] 

which will be stated. The SECRETARY. The original question being on the motion of 

Mr. BUCKINGIIAM, that the bill be recommitted to the Committee on Finance, a motion was made by :Mr. MERRllWN to amend the motion 

to recommit the bill by adding thereto, " and that the Committee on Finance be, and they are hereby, instructed to report as soon as prac- ticable a bill providing for the increase of the national-bank circula- . tion, so the whole volume thereof shall not exceeu $400,000,000." A mo- tion has been made by Mr. Scorr to amend the proposed amendment, 

by inserting at the end thereof, "and providing for the redemption of the whole national-bank currency in specie or the interest-bearing 

bonds of the United States." 

The question is on this amendment to the amendment. 

J.h'. MERRIMON. On that question I ask for the yeas and nay§!. The yeas ~tnd nays were ordered. lli. CAMERON. The Senate is not full, and I think this is a question on which we should have a full Senate. I prefer that the vote 

should be taken to-morrow. Unless that course be agreed to by com- mon consent, I will move that the Sena,te now proceed to the consideration of executive business. Mr. SHERMAN. I hope the Senator from Pennsylvania will not do 

that. He has already given notice of a motion for to-morrow. I do 

not want this to be deferred until to-morrow. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the motion that 

the Senate proceed to the consideration of executive business. 

The motion Wl!S not agreed to. 

Mr. ~ERRY, of Michigan. I feel it my duty to state that the Sen- ator from Tennessee, [Mr. BROWNLOW,] is not in his seat, and he has 

l eft on account of his condition, and on the supposition that no vote 

would be taken to-day. In justice to him the Senate ought, I think, 

to give him an opportunity to reach here, or else fix a time to-morrow- when the vote shall be taken, so that he can be present. It seems to me it is due to the Senator, in his condition of health, for it is impos- Rible for him to stay here and await the action of tho Senate. I have deemed it my duty to say this much, and I leave the Senate 

to take such course as they deem best. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question i~ on the amendment 

of the Senator from Pennsylvania, [:Mr. ScoTT,] to the amendment 

offered by the Senator from North Carolina, [.Mr. MERRD:lON.] · Mr. HOWE. I rise to inquire whether it would be in order now to move the amendment of which I gave notice to the amendment 

proposed by the Senator from Pennsylvania 'r 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo're. It will not be in order until the 

present motion is disposed of. 1\Ir. SCOTT. The question is _ on my amendment to the proposed 

instruction. J.h'. HOWE. I beg pardon; I thought it wa.s the amendment of 

the Senator's colleague. 

The PRESIDENT p 1·o ternpm·e. The amendment will be again re- ported. The Chief Clerk read the amendment proposed by :Mr. ScoTT to 

the amendment of Mr. MERRIMON. Mr. BOREl\IAN. There is, I apprehend, not a member of this body 

who is not in favor of resuming specie payments at some time, and 

yet there are some who do not think this is a very propitious time to 

inaugurate resumption. This proposition, it seems to me, is so indefi- nite that it is very difficult for us to express our views properly; in 

other words, we shall be misunderstood whether we vote one way or the other, unless we are for resumption instanter. The amendment is: 

And providing for the redemption of the whole national-bank currency in specie or the interest-bearing bonds of the United States. 

That instruction is so general thn.t it leaves the committee to make 

this _resumption commence at once or commence five years hence. :l'lfr. SHERMAN. It will all be reported to the Senate. Mr. BOREMAN. It will be reported to the Senate, but then we shall have another squabble for weeks over that, some beino- for im- media.te resumption, some for resumption next year, and so~e for it 

four or five vears hence. 

Mr. MORTON. The amendment means resumption instanter, uu- dou btedly. · _ 

Mr. BOREMAN. If this means immediate resumption, (and that 

is the only construction I can give to it,) I shall be compelled to vote 

against it. If there was some time in the future fixed for this action, 

I might -probably vote for it. 

The PRESIDENT pro rempore. The question is on the amendment 

• of the Senator from Pennsylvania [l\Ir. ScoTT] to the instructions 

proposed by the Senator from North Carolina, [Mr. l\fERRil\IO:N ] upon 

which the yeas and nays have been ordered. ' 

The Secretary proceeded to call the roll. 

!r. FLANAGAN, (when his name was called.) I have ao-reed to 

pair with the . enator from Arkansas, l\Ir. DORSEY. If he ~ere here 

he would vote "yea" and I should V@te "nay" on this question. 

l\h'. GORDON, (when his name was callecl.) I am paired with the 

Senator from Delaware, !llr. BAYARD. If he were here he would vote 

"yea" and I should vote-" nay." 

.Mr. HAMILTON, of Maryland, (when his name was called.) Upon 

this question I am paired with the Senator from Kansas, Mr. INGALLS. 

I should vote "yea," and he would vote "nay," if he were present. 1\h'. HAMILTON, of Texas, (when his name was called.) I am paired with the Senator from Kansas, Mr. INGALLS. If he were present he would vote against the proposition, and I should vote for it. J.h'. CONKLING. How many are pail.'ed with the same Senator t 

l\h'. HAMILTON, of Maryland. If the Senator from Texa.s has paired 

with the Senator from Kansas, I vote "yea." 

h'. HITCHCOCK, (when his name was called.) On this question 

I am paired with the Senator from Vermont, Mr. EDMU DS. He 

would vote "yea," and I should vote "nay." 

l\h'. SARGENT, (when his name was called.) I supposed I was paired with the Senator from Kansas, Mr. INGALLS, who wa-s called 

home by sickness in his family. The Senator from Texas [Mr. IlAM- ILTO:N] announced that he was paired with him. My friend on my 

left [Mr. HA3rrLTO~ , of Maryland,] also supposed that he was paired 

with him. The Senator from Texas is willing to remain paired with 

him. Of course there can be but one pair, and under the circum- stances I consider myself relea-sed from the pair, and therefore vote 

"yea." 

1.-h'. SAULSBURY, (when his name wascalled.) On this question I am paired with the Senator from North Carolina, J.h'. RANSOM. If 

he were here he would vote "nay," and I should vote " yea." 

The roll-call hn.ving been concluded, the result was announced- yeas 28, nays 30 ; . as follows : 

YEAS-Messrs- Anthony, Boutwell, Buckiuo-han1, Chandler, Conkling, Cooper, 

Cragin, Davis, Fenton, Ferry of Connecticu~, Frelinghuysen, Gilbert, Hager, 

Han:illton of Maryland, Hamlin, Jones, Kelly, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Verw~Jie~~~: Schurz, Scott, Sherman, Stevenson, Stewart, Stockton, Sw nner, and 

NA~Messrs. Alcorn, Allison, Bo~, Boreman; Cameron, Carpenter, Clayton, 

Dennis, Ferry of MiC:higan, Goldthwau.e, Harvey, Howe, Johnston, Logan, Mc- Creery, Mernmon, Mitchell, Morton, Norwoou, Oglesby, Patterson, Pease, Pratt, Ramsey, Robertson, Spencer, Thurman, Tipton, West, and Wrirrht-30. ABSENT- Messrs. Bayard, Brownlow, Conover, Dorsey, E~unds, FL'illagan, 

Gordon, Hamilton of Texas, H itchcock, Ingalls, Lewis, Ransom, Saulsbury, Sprague, 

and Windom- 15. 

So the amendment of Mr. ScoTT to the proposed instructions was rejected. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question recurs on the instruc- tions moved by the Senator from North Carolina [~Ir. MERRIMON] as an amendment to the motion to recommit. :Mr. CAMERON. Now, Mr. Presiden~, I see the Senate is not full 

by any means, and this is a very important question. It will affect 

the country for years. I trust, therefore, that we shall now adjourn, and take this vote to-morrow. Mr. SHERMAN. I trust we shall not adjourn, and I call for the 

yeas and nays on the motion. ~Ir. CO}.TKLING. Let us have a division first. Mr. SHERMAN. Very well; I will withdraw the demand for a moment until a division can be had. The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. The Senator from Pennsylvania 

[Mr. CAMERON] moves that the Senate do now adj ourn. - The motion wa-s not agreed to. The PRESIDENT pro tmnpm·e. Tho question recms on the amend- ment of the Senator from North Carolina, [M:r. MERRIMON.] 

Mr. STEWART. I ask for the yeas and nays on that amendment. The yeas and nays were ordered. Mr. FERRY, of Michlgan. Let the amendment be reported. Mr. MORTON. I was going to suggest that the la-st roll-call showed 

the absence of some sixteen Senators. 

Mr. SHERl\iAN. They were all pairecl. 

:Mr. MORTON. Not all of them. There are some Senators absent 

who are not paired, and who did not expect the vote to be taken to- day, but who will be here in the morning. The Senator from Rhode 

Island [Mr. SPRAGUE] was here a little while ago, but ha.s gone. The Senator from Florida [:Mr. CoxoVER] is absent, and the Senator 

from Minnesota [Mr. Wn.--nmr] is absent. The latter did not expect 

the vote to be taken to-_clay. 

l\h'. HOWE. Am I to understand that the amendment moved by 

the Senator from Pennsylvania, [Mr. CAMERON] is now before the 

Senate' 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempm·e. The question is on the amendment 

offered by the Senator from North Carolina, [l\h'. l\fERRiiYION.] 

Mr. HOWE. Then I propose to move the amendment of which I 

gave notice as an amendment to the amendment of the Senator from 

North Carolina. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempm·e. The amendment to the amendment 

will be read. The Chief Clerk read as follows : 

And tha.t the said committee-be further instructed t{) make provision that the Sec· retaryofthc Trea-sm:-y shall, once in ea{lh month, sell to the highest bidders, for Unit.cd 

States notes, coupon bonds equal to 85 per cent. of the additional bank eircnl::ttion 

issued during the month preceding, which bonds shall bear interest at the rate of 

5 per cent. per annum., payable quarterly, and the principal shall be payable at the 

pleasure of the Government after t en years from their claw, both principal and intet·- est to be paid in gold coin; hut none of said bomlssh::tll be sold at lesstb:m their par value, and the United States notes received in exchange therefor shall never be 

reissued, but shall be desh:·oyed. 
·i596 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. FEBRUARY 18, 

Mr. HOWE. Now, I wish to make one suggestion in reply to a remark made by the Senator from Indiana. I regret that we have 

not before the Senate now the amendment proposed by the Senator 

from Pennsylvania, [Mr. CAl\mRo~ ;] that we have not an unlimited 

banking proposition before u s, instead of a restrictive one; but if t he 

Senate shn.ll agree to the amendment pFOposed by the Senator from 

North Carolina up to the amount named there, every section of the 

country can haYe just as much banking circulation as ca.pital is willing.to supply. It seems to me th41.t while the Senator from Indiana 

may be entirely right in supposing that there is a large portion of 

the country who think we have not greenbacks enough, yet the men who hold the greenbacks know better about that than the men who 

do not; and if the fact is that men .are carrying these greenbacks 

who would rather have an obligation of the GoverlliD.ent paying 5 

per cent. interest than to carry the £f not.es without interest, or to 

loan these notes to anybody else, what possible rea-son can we assign, 

otlier than a wish to repudiate, for not allowing them to convert them 

rnto a 5 per cent. bond' . :Mr. MORTON. The effect of the two amendments taken together 

is that the committee shnU be instructed to report a bill increasing 

the national-bank circulation $46,000,000, or up to the amount of 

$400,000,000 altogether, and that an amount of greenbacks shall be 

retired, by beinO' funded into a 5 per cent. bond, equal to 85 per cent. 

of the $46,000,000, as fast as the $46,000,000 may be called for. It 

presents the distinct question to the Senate of retiring a portion of 

the greenback circulation now outstanding. It presents the distinct 

question of converting a portion of our greenback circulation .into an interest-bearing bond. 

Mr. SCOTT. At 5 per cent. Y 

Mr. MORTON. A 5 per cent. bond. It presents the distinct question of confining the volume of the currency to exactly what it is now. Mr. MERRIMON. It goes much further than that. As I under- • stand this amendment, if it shall prevail and a law sh::ill. pass carrying it into effect, it not only retires the greenbacks, but it only 

increases the volume of circulation- the money circulation-in the 

country·15 per cent. 

1\Ir. MORTON. It does not increase it that MUount, as I understand 

that the volume of greenbacks to be retired is only 85 per cent. of 

$46,000,000. The reason of that, I presume, is that the Senator counts on the reserve. The 46,000,000 will require, on n.n average, 25 per 

cent. I'{;Serve instead of 15 per cent. The Senator only allows for 15 

per cent., but the average reserve will be over 25 per cent., if we take 

the returns of the banks heretofore; so that there would be a positive 

contraction of the difference between the 15 per cent. anti the 25 per 

cent. on the $46,000,000. 

Mr. HOWE. Mr. President, the reserve is 15 per cent. outside of the 

cities. I assume that no portion of this new banking circulation would 

go to the cities, and therefore I deducted but 15 per cent., wbjch is 

just the reserve. 1\fr. MORTON. Let me suggest to the Senator that the amount of reserve under the law, outside of the cities, is 15 per cent. on circula.-

tion and 15 per cent. on deposits, which makes 30 per cent. The 

average of deposits, I believe, is nearly equal to the circulation. I am not sure about that, but I think it approaches it very nearly. 

Mr. STEW ART. On what does it make 30 per cent. Y Fifteen per 

cent. on deposits and 15 per cent. on circulation Y 

Mr. MORTON. If you put the two together they would make 30 

per cent. 

1\Ir. CONKLING. Thirty per cent. on what Y 

:Mr. MORTON. It would require an amom1t of greenbacks to be 

called out of circulation and "QUt into the vaults of the banks as their reserve equal to 15 per cent. on circulation and 15 per cent. on deposits, and if the deposits arc equal to the circulation, which they are likely to be, then the whole amount of the reserve to be put into the 

vaults of the banks, to be taken out of the greenbacks now in circu- lation, would be 30 per cent. of the $46,000,000; so that it would be a retirement in that form of another 30 per cent. Mr. BOGY. I think it is only 15 per cent. on $46,000,000, which 

would be $6,900,000. 

Mr. THURMAN. If there were to be an increase of national-bank 

currency to the extent of $46,000,000 and no more, and the pTOposition of the Senator from Wisconsin were adopted, the result would 

be simply this : that the volume of currency in the country would be 

increased $6,900 000; an increase which I imagine woulu afford very 

little relief in the opinion of those who think the panacea for all our evils is more paper money; but then its eftect would not stop there. While it would be wholly inefficient to afford relief, if r elief could 

only be afforded by an increa e of currency, it would impose upon 

this Government the payment of $2,000,000 annually in the shape of 

interest, or very nearly that, $1,900,000. That is to say, for the privilege of havin(J' 6,900 000 additional currency, the Government is to 

agree to pay 11,950,000 interest per annum, in order to retire a cur- rency with which the whole people are satisfied. l\Ir. HOWE. I have been painfully conscious of that defect in this 

proposition of mine, that it would call upon the United States to pay a little interest on their debts, if the holders of the non-inte;rest pa,ying debt asked for it; but I thought the people of the United States 

had integrity enough left to consent to that. I did not think I should 

encounter here in the Senate statesmen who would insist upon the 

people carrying this dishonored paper simply for the purpo e of sav· ing so low a rate of interest a-s 5 per cent. Therefore I ventrrred. 

to offer the proposition. But Senators suggest to me that in teau of 

asking a vote of the Senate upon this proposition as an amendment 

to the amendm~t offered by the Senator from North Carolina, I 

should move, a~ substitute for his amendment, the proposition of 

the Senator from Pennsylvania, with my amendment n.dded; and I 

inquire of the Chair if that would be in order 

The PRESID&~T pro tempm·e. The Senator from Wisconsin can modify his motion to that etlect. The Senator from ·wisconsin withdraws his present motion. The question will then be on the amendment offered by the Senator from North Carolina. The Senator from 

Wisconsin can now move any substitute for that he please.'3. 

1\Ir. FERRY, of Iichigan. Have not the Senate ordered the yeas 

and n:tys on the other proposition 'f 

The PRESIDEl\TT pro tempore. They have not. 

1\fr. HOWE. I move as a substitute for the amendment of the 

Senator from North Carolina the proposition of the Senator from 

Pennsylvania, [Mr. CAl\lERO~,] with my amendment addeu thereto. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Wisconsin withdraws his amendment, and moves now, as a substitute for the amendment offered by the Senator from North Carolina, tho amendment of 

the Senator from Pennsylvania and his own as one mea m·e. 

1\Ir. ALCORN. I will inquire whether that amendment, in its present 

attitude, is divisible~ 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is not. 

1\Ir. ALLISON. I will inquire whether or not an amendment to the 

substitute is in order Y 

The PRESIDENT pro ternpore. It is not. This is an amendrrient to an amendment. · 

1\fr. ALLISON. I understand the Senator from Wisconsin offers his origin:tl proposition. 

The PRESIDENT pro tentpore. The Senator from Wisconsin has 

wit hdrawn the amendment which he offered to the amendment of the 

Senator from North Carolina. He now changes it by moving a substitute for it, which is in the nature of an amendment. 

Ir. ALLISON. And not amendable f 

The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. And not amendable until disposed 

of by a vote. 

Mr. DAVIS, and 1\fr. FERRY of :Michigan. Let the amendment be 

reported. 

The PRESIDENT pro. tempore. The amendment of the Senator 

from North Carolin:t [Mr. MERRIMON] and the amendment proposed 

by the Senator from Wisconsin [l\lr. HOWE] will be reported. 

The CHIEF CLERK. The amendment of Mr. 1\fERRIMON is to add to 

the motwn to refer the following instructions: 

Th..<tt the Committee on Finance be and they a.re her eby, instructed t.o report, as soon as practicable, a bill providing for the increa.Re of the national-bank circula.. 

tion so t,h..'tt the whole volume thereof shall not exceed 4{)0,000,000. 

It is proposed to amend that amendment so as to make it read: 

Th..1.t the Committee on Finance be, and they are hereby, instructed to r eport a-s soon as practicable a bill proviilin~ that so much of the twenty-second section of 

the net entitled "An act to provide a. national currency secured bv a. pledge of 

United States bonds, and to provide for the circula.tion and r edemption thereof," 

approved June 3, 1864, and of the several a-cts supplementary thereto and :unen<la· 

tory thereof, and such of the provisions of the a-ct entitled "An act to provide for 

the redemption of the 3 per cent. temporary-loan certificates and for an increase of 

national-bunk notes," a.pproved July 12, 1S70, and so much of such parts of any other act or acts of Congress as limit or as may be construed to limit or r estrict the entire amount of notes for circulation to be issued under the a-ct of June 3, 1864, ancl the several supplements thereto, be, and the same are h ereby, r epealed; ancl that 

hereafter all a sociations or~anized, or that may be ore;anized, for carryin~ on ths 

business of banking under tne provisions of said act snail be free to estaolish and 

organize na.tionall:iauks with circulation at any place within the several States anu Territories of the United States upon the terms and conditions, and subject to all the 

limit.1.tions and restrictions now provided by law, except the limitation upon the 

entire a.mount of circuL1.tion, which is hereby repealed. And also providing that 

the Secretary of the Treasury shall, once in each month, sell totbehi~hest bidllerfor 

United States notes, coupon bonds equalt.o 85 per cent. of the additiona1 bank circuJ.a... 

tion issued during the monthprecedin~, which bond.~ shaJJ. bear interest at tho rate of 5 per cent., payable quarterly, anu the principal shall be payable at the pleasure of the Government, after ten years from their date; both principa.l and interest to be paid in gold coin; but none of said bonds shall b e sold at less than their p:tr value; and the United States notes received in exchange therefor shall never be 

reissued, but shall be destroyed. · 

Mr. HOWE. I desire to throw myself upon the indulgence of the 

Senate once more. I think this last change of front of mine was a mistake, and I want \o resume my original position. I think I will renew the motion I first made, moving my amendment as an amonu- ment to the amendment of the Senator from North Carolina; and on that I think I will take the sense of the Senate upon the expediency 

of retiring or funding greenbacks as fast as the national-bank-noto 

currency is increased ; antl then if that fails, we can get the sense of 

the Senate upon the question of increasing the national·bank-note 

currency. 

The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The Senator from Wisconsin withdraws the pending amendment which he offered as a substitute, aml renews the amendment which he had formerly offered to the amend- ment of the Senator from North Carolina. 

1\'Ir. BUCKINGHAM. Mr. President, I do not like to differ from the 

honorable Senator from Wisconsin, and it is veq seldom that I do ; 

but I think he does not-or if he doe , I do not-appreciate the r esult 

of his amendment. If I understand it, it is to with<.lraw the national. 
• 

1874. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1597 

circulation, the legal-tender notes, and substitute therefor bank-notes, 

and I suppose he has reference to a :final redemption in coin, for I cer- tainly think he is one of the most earnest men in the Senate in be half 

of specie redemption. I wish to say to the honorable Senator that I 

think if he adheres to that proposition, and if the Senate shall vote 

for it, before you see specie redemption, or at the time you see specie 

redemption, you will see a contraction of the currency such as you do 

not now appreciate. For instance, suppose to-day all the legal-tender 

notes were retired ancl bank-notes placed in circulation, and you should 

require the banks to meet their obligations and redeem their notes in 

coin, how could they do it Y They could only do it by going into the 

market and purchasing the coin. That would be right; for they are under obligations to redeem, and therefore they should redeem at any 

cost. But suppose they should go into the market and buy coin and 

redeem their notes and pay the present market value, or one-half that, 

I ask you if they would put those notes in circulation again Y 

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. Will the Senator from Connecticut 

allow me to ask him a question Y 

:Mr. BUCKINGHAM. Certainly. . Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I desire to ask the Senator whether 

he does not know that the banks of the city of Ne'w York at the present moment have 12 or 15 per cent. more Of specie than they have out 

in circulation, so that for the largest city in the country, containing 

the larg-est amount of banking capital, they have an excess to-day of 

somethrng like 12 or 15 per cent. of coin in their vaults a,bove their 

circulation Y 

Mr. BUCKINGHAM. I did not know it was that amount; but I 

say this: Whoever takes that coin takes from those banks 10 per cent. more than he takes when be takes their notes; and if they begin to 

I'ecleem, the moment ~hey r edeem and pay that premium for coin to 

redeem their notes, I say distinctly that those banks will issue no more currency to be redeemed by the purchase of coin at such a rate; 

and therefore, if that specie redemption were continued- it would not 

be; but if it should be continued, there would be a curtailment as a matter of absolute necessity; and no legislation can prevent it. 

Mr. HOWE. 1\fr. President., I do notwant to deal in predictions. I 

said yesterday, I repeat to-clay, that I know very well a bank can- not pay four dollars with one; but I think I know that long before 

your greenbacks are retired under this proposition they will be at 

par with specie in the country. I think I know one other thing : if to-clay you had no Government notes on ...,the market, but all the 

11aper in circulation had been issued by -the banks, I do not believe 

there would be the slightest danger of a run being made upon the 

banks, and for this plain reason- who would make the run For 

every dollar of bank-paper the community will have in its pockets 

the bank has more than a dollar of the commercial paper of the country, and if for purposes of speculation combinations make a rill 

upon the banks with their notes for redemption, the banks will say, 

"Why, gentlemen, yes; to-day you ask us to pay our paperin specie; 

to-morrow your paper falls due, and you must pay specie," for the 

Government cannot any longer intervene between the clients of the 

banks and the banks themselves. When that time comes, manifestly 

to me the ba,nks will be called upon to furnish only so much specie as the business of the country absolutely demands, and that amount 

of specie they not only will be able to furnish then, but they are furnishing to-day, did yesterday, and have done every day during 

the past ten years. Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont. I suggest to my friend that no bank can be put into operation witl;wut furnishing an amount equal to the 

capital in pecie to-day under any of these propositions. They must 

buy the bonds, and the bonds are worth their par in specie. 

:Mr. HOWE. They are not specie, but they are worth the specie. 

1\fr. MORRILL, of Vermont. And will bring it anywhere. Mr. HAMLIN. I desire to say simply that I shall vote for this 

amendment, without giving any intimation whatever how I would 

vote upon it as a separate and distinct measure. I shall do so because 

I shall subsequently vote a.gainst any instructions to the committee, 

and I think this debate and the precise attitude the question is now in before the Senate ought to convince us all that we ought to recom- mit the bill without any embarrassment. 

Mr. SCHURZ. The position I occupy 'dth regard to this amend- ment is exactly the position just now defined by the Senator from 

Maine. Mr. C.AMERON. I trust we shall vote this proposition down. I 

desire to get my proposition plainly and simply before the Senate. 

After it shall have met the approbation of the Senate, I shall be willing to consider propositions of amendment; but I think the effect of 

all these amendments is only to embarrass the main question, and I 

trust we shall vote this one down. Jl.fr. BOUTWELL. I wish tosaythat I cannot vote for this amendment. It contains in it a principle which, if extended, brings this 

country by steady and certain processes to bankruptcy; and whether 

the instructions are to fall or to succeed, I cannot put myself upon 

record in favor of a proposition which contains a principle by which 

every business man in this country is to be destroyed if it be applied 

generally to the financial system of the country. Mr. lORTON. Will my friend state how 

Mr. BOUTWELL. It is a process by which you increase the demand 

for legal-tender notes and diminish the supply-that is the peculiarity 

of it-by which the business of the country must be brought to ruin. Mr. BUCKINGHAM. I spoke of the amenclment proposed by the 

Senator from Wisconsin [Mr. HOWE] simply because !preferred· it as attached to the proposition of the Senator from Pennsylvania, [ Ir. 

CAMERON.] I wish he had not withdrawn it, but had allowed those 

two to have gone as a substitute for the whole. As he has withdrawn it, I do not hesitate to say that his amendment attached to the 

proposition of the Senator from North Carolina would, in my judgment, improve the proposition of the Senator from North Carolina, 

and therefore, unless I change my mind, I shall vote for his amendment to the amendment of the Senator from North Carolina; but then 

I shall reserve the privilege of voting against them both. · 1\fr. HOWE. I have a word to say in reply to the Senator from 

Massachusetts, [Mr. BOUTWELL.] I agree with him that the objec- tion he has stated to this amendment of mine is a very grave one; 

that if it is going to place the business of the United States face to 

face with bankruptcy and destruction he ought not to vote for it, and 

I would not vote for it if I believecl that. Bnt he is right or wrong · in that prediction of his. If he is wrong, it should not stand in the 

way of his vote; if he is right, then this is the attitude of the conn- try : that that medicine which you now call greenbacks, and which 

you persuaded the country to take some twelve years ago with shrinking and with reluctance, and only because the country stood then on the verge of bankruptcy and could not be relieved from it in any 

other way- that vile drug has become now a necessity of the Ameri- can people. When you are restored to health you take this medicine 

because you have come to love it. If that is the condition of the 

country to-day, that will be the condition of the country ten years 

hence also. These unredeemed, dishonored promises of the Government. have become essential to the business life of the country. 

Mr. STEW ART. That is the way with opium-eaters. 

Mr. HOWE. My friend says that is the way with opium-eaters. Yes, I have known many a m::tn, after he ha-d taken two or three swigs, 

labor under the hallucination that he must have more drink. That seems to be the condition of the country to-day. Business is a little 

drunk with this dishonored paper, and Senators are divided; some of 

them think, to get sober, we must take more; and the honorable Senator from Massachusetts thinks it is not worth while to take any 

more; if you can stagger under what you have got yon will do well, 

but by no means give up a drop you have already swallowed. 

lr. BOUTWELL. I very much regret to be the occasion of prolonging this debate, and I know very well the Senate is anxious to come to a final decision, and I am, I think, among the most anxious. I interposed the observation with reference to the amendment offered 

by the Senator from Wisconsin, because it has been the habit of my 

life, in legislative assemblies, not to vote for an amendment to a proposition in the way of changing it perniciously, with the intention of 

voting against the main proposition contained in the amendment. My position, I suppose, is perfectly well understood. I consider 

inflation and forcible contraction alike dangerous to the country. There is one observation made in a treatise on.political economy by a. German once resident in this country, then returning to his home, published som~ years since, that there is nothing in the way of principle 

in the science of political economy that is applicable at all times to 

all nations, but that the science of political economy, so far as it is a science, is national and not cosmopolitan. I believe that the gre::tt error of the present moment is the tendency of men to rely upon what are declared or have been declared to be principles with reference to 

other countries and other conditions of peoples, not applicable at this 

time to ourselves. I should like to borrow, as an illustration or ex- ample of what I have in mind, one of the greatest questions ever put 

to mankind, by Col burn, in his First Lessons of I ntellec tua 1 Arithmetic, 

to the child: How many thumbs have you on your right hand"? I am inclined to look at things around us and to take counsel of what is 

within our own knowledge, paying due respect to what has been said 

by others in other times and under a different condition of things. Now we do see that we have in this country, barring the circumstance that our paper money is not redeemable in coin, a good cur- rency. It is of umversal value; it is of a value which can be ascer- tained at any time and in every place. We do know that we have an excess of this currency as measured by coin; and we do know, if we have the faculty of observation, I think, that the price of every article of property increased in proportion to this excess. Now that we have eliminated from the question the fact that for a time the pub- lic credit of the country was impaired, what remains of difference 

between coin and paper in the markets of the world does measure the 

excess ?f paper over coin. I am opposed, as I have said before, to 

expa.ns10n for that reason; I am opposed to contraction; but above 

all am I opposed to any measure of contmction that is not upen, clear, 

defined, precise, so that it can be understood. If we are to contract 

the currency, whether of national-bank notes or of greenbacks, let us do it by a distinct regulation as to the amount and the time when. 

The proposition of the Senator from Wisconsin will have this effect: 

by increasing the volume of national-bank notes nncler-the law reqnir~g the national banks to keep a reserve of United States notes, 

you mere e the demand, and at the same time he proposes to diminish the supply. During the panic last autumn something like one- h~tlf of 1 per cent. premium was paid in New York indirectly for 

United States notes, representing the value of those notes ovm: and 
• 

1598 CONGRESS~ONAL RECORD. 

above national-bank notes. This proposition will increase the tendency. Whenever United States notes, by any proce , become so valuable as compared with national-bank notes that it shall be an obj ect for brokers to speculate in them, you close up the entire volume -of Unit-ed States notes precisely as though for the moment they were struck out of existence. They no longer circulate when they become 

valuable as n.n n.rticle of merchandise, and the tendency of this measure is unquestionably in that direction. 

Mr. HOWE! Will not the honorable Senator be good enough to give an answer to these two questions: first, whether coin will not supply 

every office that greenbacks now supply; and, secondly, whether coin, 

if the greenbacks were out of the way, would not take theh· place; 

and I will add this third, whether coin could not be supported by the 

country just as cheaply as the greenbacks are 1 

Mr. BOUTWELL. Mr. President, the answer to these two questions is perfectly plain. Coin would take the place of greenbacks if 

we had the coin, but we have not the coin, and no person has yet · suggested a way by which we canobtain itthatispracticable. Therefore, the policy of driving the country n.t once to the transaction of 

all its business upon a coin basis, is to contract the business of the 

country to the basis which the volume of coin supplies. Therefore, 

it is reaching specie payments by the prostration of the industries of 

the country and the impoverishment of the people. 

Mr. HOWE. 1\fr. President, I know a disadvantage I labor under in 

this debate. I am talking against experience; I am talking against 

authority; but after all I am compelled to talk. [Laughter. ) 

The Senator objects now that coin could supply the office of greenbacks if we had the coin; but we have not got it, and nobody has 

pointed out how we can get it. I will venture to tell the Senator how 

I think we can get it. The capital buried in your greenbacks to-day, 

if it could be drawn out, would place coin there instead. The capit~l 

which is buried in your greenbacks, once drawn out, would bring the 

coin necessary to supply the place of it. 

Mr. HITCHCOCK, (at four o'clock and fifty-six minutes p.m.) I move that the Senate do now adjourn. 

1\lr. CONKLING. No, no; let us vote. 

Mr. SHERMAN. I c:ill for the yeas and nays on the motion to 

adjourn. . The yeas and nays were ordered. 

1\lr. SCHURZ. I suggest to the Senator from Ohio to withdraw 

the call for the yeas and nays, and let us have a rising vote. Mr. SHERMAN. I would prefer having the yeas and nays. I do 

not want to consume any more time on this subject. · 

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted-yeas 28, nays 

35; as follows: 

YEAS - Messrs. Bogy, Boreman. Cameron, Clayton, F enton, Gordon, Hager, Hamilton of M.aryland, Hamilton of Texas, H::u;-ey, Hitchcock, Johnston, Jones, McCreery, Morton, Norwoou, Patiterson, Pease, Pratt, Ramsey, Robertson, Saulsbury, Spencer, Stevenson, Stockton, Sumner, W e t, and Wriglit-28. 

NAYS-Messrs. Alcorn, Allison, Boutwell, Brownlow, Buckingham, Carpenter, 

Cha.Dlller, Conkling, Cooper, Cragin, Davis, Dennis, Ferry of Connecticut, F orry 

of Michigan, Flana~~~ Frcling_huysen, Gilbert, Goldthwaite, Hamlin, Howe, Kelly, Logan, Merrimon, .lll.itchell, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Oglesby, Sargent, Schurz, Scott, Sherman, Stewart, Thurman, Tipton, and Waill i~.u-35. 

ABSE T-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Conover, Dorsey, Edmunds, :klgalls, Lewis, 

Ra-nsom, Sprague, a.nu Winuom-10. 

So the Senate refused to adjourn. 

The PRESIDENT Jn·o tempore. The question recurs on the amend- ment offered by t.he Senator from Wisconsin, [Mr. HoWI;;.) 

h. THURMAN. I only wish tosa.ythateverythingthathasoccurred 

thi evening serves to confirm me in the opinion I expressed yesterday, 

that the best thing the Senate can do is to recommit this hill t.o the 

Committee on Finance. without instructions, beca.use it does seem to me that any attempt to agree upon any instructions in the Senate upon a subject so vast and varied anu complicated, and about which there 

is suc4 diversity of opinion, will be in the end unsatisfactory and a failure. Therefore, without regard to the abstract or intrinsic merits 

of any amendment that may be offered, I shall vote against any instructions whatsoever, and vote to send this bill back to the committee, 

unless the Senate will do what I think would be better than thatpass the bill. I think the bill as it came from the committee mi<Yht well be passed. At the same time that I would agree, and perh~ps ~ould prefer, that the amount ef currency to be redistril.mted should 

be somewhat brger than $25,000,000, and I might be willing even to 

go to the extent of 50,000,000 after a full con ideration of the matter, 

still I am willing to take the judgment of the committee upon that 

subject, especially a that executes the will of the Senate, or rather 

the will of Congress as expre sed in the act pa sed four years ago, 

which has remained unexecuted to this day. I advocated that mea - ore with what little; feeble ability I ha<L I was convinced of it~ 

soundness and wisdom then. I am equally convincecl of its wisdom 

· and its justice now. It has remained unexecuted for four years; it 

ought to be executed ; n.nd tllerefore I should prefer that the Senate, 

instead of r ecommitting this bill, should pass it as it came from the 

committee. 

But if the Senate will not pass it; if it is to be loaded down with 

all manner of amendment , and we are to reiliscuss the whole sub- j ect of banking, currency, finance, ancl commerce upon this bill, or npon a.ny ~ther bl.!-1 that the committee can briug in, then I say let us recommtt the btU and let the committee report all the measure -which in its wisdom the exigency requires, anu I believe that that 

will be the only practicable method of getting at a solution of these 

questions. I repeat, I shall vote against all in trnctions to the com- mittee, without regard to their intrinsic merits, so as to le:-tve it to 

the committee to report such measures as in its wisdom :it thinks are required; and when they shall be reported I shall not hesitate to ex- pre s my opinion upon them, not by harping at this provision or that 

provision, not by picking flaws here and there, but by speaking upon 

them in a.s broad and as catholic a spirit a.s any Senator ought to 

speak. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the amendment 

offered by the Senator from Wisconsin. 

1\Ir. LOGAN. I call for the yeas and nays. ["0, no!"] I withdraw the call. 

Mr. HOWE. Let us have the yeas and nays. 

The yeas and nays were ordered; and the Secretaxy proceeded to 

call the roll. 

Mr. HITCHCOCK, (when his name was called.) I am paired witt. the Senator from Vermont, 1\.l.r. EmrUNDS. . The call having been concluded, 

Mr. MORRILL of Vermont. On this question my colleague [Mr. 

EDMUNDS] is paired with the Senator from Nebraska, Mr. IlrTCH- cocx. . :Mr. HAMILTON, of Maryland. On this question I am paired with 

the Senator from Arkansas, Mr. CLA. YTO. • He is for what is com- monly called infln.tion, and I am opposed to it; and therefore, as an amendment t,o the proposition of the Senator from North Carolina, I 

should vote "yen." on this motion, and I take it for granted he would 

vote "nay." 

The result was announced- yeas 16, nays 40; a.s follows: 

YEAS-Messrs. Anthony, Buckinr-rham, Cha.niller, Conkling, Cragin, Fenton, rryof Connecticut, Frelinghuysen,~, Howe, Jones, Morrill ol'Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Stewart, Sumner, and Wadleigh-16. 

NAYS-Messrs. Alcorn, Allison, Bogy, Boreman, Boutwell, Brownlow, Cameron, 

Carpenter, Cooper, Davis, Dennis, Ferry of Mi.chi,!!;an, Flanauan, Goluthwaite, Hager, Harvey, Johnston, K elly, Logan, McCreery, Merrimou, Mitchell, Morton, Norwood, Ogle by, P atter on, Pea e, Pratt, Ramsey, Robertson, Sar;!ent, Saulslmry, 

Scott, Spencer, Stevenson, Stockton, Thurman, Tipton, W est, and Wright-40. 

ABSENT-Me rs. Bayardz......Clayton, Conover, Dorsey, E<lmnnds, Gilbert, Gordon, Hamilton of Maryland, .tlamilton of Texa-s, Hitchcock, Ingalls, Lewis, Han- som, Schurz, Sherman, Sprague, and Windom-17. 

So the amendment to the amendment was r ejected. 

The PRESIDENT pro tem.pore. The question recurs on the amendment offered by the Senator from North Carolina. 

~Ir. BUCKINGHA.l\L I move, a-s a substitute for the proposition as It now stands, that the committee be required to bring in a hill 

which will provide for free banking, for fundinrr legal-tender notes 

in United States bonds, anclfor the redemption of United States bonds 

in legal-tender notes. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is on the n.mendment 

of the Senator from Connecticut to the amendment. The amendment to the amendment wa-s rejected. 

1\fr. MORTON and Mr. CiliERON rose. 

Mr. MORTON. I yield to the Senator from P ennsylvania. 

fr. CAMERON. I now move my amendment. 

The PRESIDENT 1Jro tempm·e. The amendment will be reported. The Chief Clerk read as follows : 

That the Committee on Finance be, and they are hereby, instructed to report as soon as practicable a. bill providing as follows: 

That so much of section 22 of the act entitled 11 An act to provide a. national currency secureu by a pledge of nited States bond , and to provide for the circulation and redemption thereof," approved June 3, 1864, and of the several aots supplementary theret{) and amentlatory thereof, and such of the provisions of the act entitled 11 An act to proviue for the redemption of tho 3 per cont. temporary- loan certificates, and for a.n increase of national. bank notes," n,pproved July 12, 

1870, and so much of such parts of any other act or acts of Congress as limit, or as . may be construed to limit or restrict, the entire amount of notes for circulation to 

be ISsued under the said act of Jnne 3, 1864, and the several supplemtmts thereto, 

be, and the same are hereby, r epealed; ancl that hereafter all a. ooiations ore:anized, or that may be organized, for can·yin ~ on the bu inoss of ban kino- tmtler the provisions of said u.ct shall be free to establish anu org:ani~e nation;} banks with cir- culation at anyplace within the veral States anu Territorie of the United State , upon the terms and. conditions anu s nbject to the limitations and restrictions now provided by law, except the limitation upon the entire amount of circulation, which 

is hereby r epealed. , 

Mr. MORTON. In view of t he fact that the Senate is not full, and 

several Senators are absent, not expecting a vote-to be taken to-night, 

and in view of the fact that it is desinble that this vote shall be 

taken when the Senate is full, I move that the Senate do now adjourn. 

:Ur. SHERMAN. I hope not. 

Mr. MORTON. I ask for the yeas aud nays on the motion to adjourn. 

The yeas ancl nays were ordered; and being taken, resulted"7yeas 37, uays 25 ; a~:; follows : 

YEA.S-Messrs. Allison, Boa_y, Boreman, Brownlow, Cameron, Carpenter, Con- over, Cooper, Dennis, F erey of M.iclLigan, Goldthwaite, Gordon, llager, IIamilton of Maryb.nd., Harvey, Hitchcock, Howe, John ton, Lo~n, McCreery, MeiTimon. 

Mitchell, Morton, Torwood, O~lesl>y, Pa~r::;on, Pease, .rratt, Rnm ey, Robertson, 

aulsbury, Spencee, Stockton, ;:,nmner, Tipton, We t, and Wright-37. N_t\YS-Mossrs. Alcorn, Anthony, Boutwell, Buckingham, Chandler, Oouklinu, 

Cragm, Fenton, Ferry of Connecticut, Flanagan, Frelinghuyson, Gilbert Hamli.11, 

Jones, Kelly, MoiTillof Maino, Morrill of Vermont, Sargen"t, Schurz, Soott, S.l.ter- ma.n, Stevenson, Stewart, Thurman, antl \Vadleigh-25. . ABSENT-Me. srs. Bayard, Clayton, Davis, Dorsey, Edmtmds Ha-milton of Texas 

Ingalls, Lewis, Ran om, Sprague, and \Vindom-11. ' ' 

So the motion was agreed to; and (at :five o'clock and twenty-two 

minutes p.m.) the Senate adjourned.