.rJ.IffT H 2,.,-o 

1386 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, l 'ir a-:5' 

One of _the members of that board, General Miles, is now in the city, 

and I communicated with him upon the subject and submitted to him 

the affidavits of all these eminent surgeons, and he writes this; 

EBBITl' Hou E, Washingtan, D. o.,January22,1855. 

MADAn: In regard to yo11T husband's retirement from the Army irt 1871, lean 

only say that to the best of my recollection, he appeared before the retir4lg board at Lea.;enworth, Kans., in the autumn of1870, ofwhichlwas a member. 

The report of the medical officers who examined him was that his disability was not of a permanent natlir~. From what I can learn of his case since I have no doubt that his disease wns not temporary but of a cllronic order. Respectfu~ly, 

NELSOX A. MILES:- Mrs. T. TID< EYCK. 

AsSistant Surgeon-G~eral Perrin was one of th~ me~ officers who 

thought the disease was not permanent. I received a dispatch from 

him. Somebody had sent him a copy of the report of the Military 

Committee. 

FoRT Ss.ELLD"G, .l\ill""N., February 3, 1885. 

To ScnatorWADE liAxPToN, • United Slates Senate, Washington: 

Have received the report of your committee. From the affidavits therein 

given it. appears that the diseases from -which Captain Ten Eyck suffered at the time he was before the retiring board have proven permanent in character. 

The short.time he was before the board gave little opportunity of judging of the 

permanencyorehronic nature of tbedia.rrhea .. It i not unlikely that the board 

may have erred in its findings. 

G. PERRIN, 

.Assistant Surgeon-General United States.Armv. 

I will say further, and I ani sure that will satisfy the whole Senate, 

that my friend, the Senator from Missouri [Mr. CocKRELL], who is on 

the committee and was originally opposed to this bill, upon seeing these 

letters and telegrams from theAssistantSurgeon-General, has admitted 

the justness of this claim, and said he wo~d go for the bill, and I am 

sure if he goes for it nobody in the Senate will make any objection. 

The bill was reported to the Senate without amendment, ordered to 

be engroSsed for a third reading, read the third time, and passed. 

EXECUTIVE SESSIO~. 

1tlr. HOAR. I now renew the motion that the Senate proceed to the 

consideration of executive business. 

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate proceeded to the co~deration of executive business. After five minutes spent in executive 

session the doors were reopened, and (at 5 o'clock p.m.) the Senate 

adjourned. - · · 

HOUSE OF REPRESE~TTATIVES. 

S.ATURD.A.Y, February 7, 188:>. 

The Hou e met at 12 o'clock m., ltlr. BLACKBURN in the chair as Speaker pro tempore. Prayer by the Chaphiin, Rev. JOHN S. LINDSAY, D. D. • . 

The Journal of the proceedings of yes~rday was read ~nd approved. 

OFFICERS AND CREW OF STEAMER CORWIN . . 

1\Ir. SINGLETON, by unanimous consent, reported back favorably 

from the Committee on the Library: the joint resolution (li. Res. 317) 

proposing the thanks of Congress to Capt. M. A. Healy and the officers 

and crew of the revenne-marine steamer Corwin; which was referred 

to the House Calendar, and the accompanying report ordered to be 

printed. 

CLERK TO CO~OOTTEE ON AC<J9UNTS. 

1\[r. DOCKERY. I ask. unanimous con8ent to offer a resolution for 

reference. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The resolutio11 will be read subject to 

objection. . The Clerk read as follows: 

Resolved, That from and a.ft~r Mardt 1, l1l&>, the clerkship to the Committee on Accounts be an ~unual clerkship, with compensation fixed at 82,000 per annum. 

1t1r. HEWfTT, of Alabama. I call for the regular order. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. ~he gentleman from Alabamtt [Mr. 

HEwrr.r] objects to the reference of this resolution. 

INTERSTATE CO~RCE. 

Mr. REAGAN. I ask unanimous conse~t to take fr~m t.he Speaker's 

table, with a view of having a disagreement in the amendments of the 

Senate, House bill 5461, known as the "interstate-commerce bilL" 

Mr. WASHBURN. Mr. Speaker, we do uotunderstand the"request 

of the gentleman from Texas [Mr. REAGA..."'\"]. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Texas asks to take . from the Speaker's table House bill 54t>l in order that Senate amendments thereto may be disagreed to and a committ.ee of conference appointed. The Clerk will report the title of the bill. 

The Cler¥ead as follows: 

A bill (H. R. 54-61) to establish a board of commissioners of interstate commerce, and to prohibit unjust discriminations by common carriers. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Texas asks to take 

this bill from the Speaker's table with a view of reaching a conference 

with the Senate. 

Mr. O'NEILL, of Pennsylvania. Mr. Speaker, I object. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Objection is made. 

·JACOB PINDLE. 

Mr. OATES, by unanimous consent, submitted the following resolution; which was read, and referred to the Committee on Accounts: 

Resolved, That the Clerk-of the House pay to Jacob Pindle out of the oontingent fund of the House the sum of $50 per month for services rendeTed in the 

bath-room of the House of Representatives during the second 8e8Sion of t.he 

Forty-eighth Congress. . 

ANTE-BELLUM POST-OFFICE WARBA.NTS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempm·e. The Chair, if there be no objection, 

will lay before the House several executive communications and personal requests. . 

There was no o~jection. 

The SPEAKER pro tempo>·e laid before the House a letter from the 

Secretary of the Treasury, inclosing a communication from the Sixth 

1\.uditor, as1..ring an appropriation to pay ante-bellum po t-offi.ce warrants; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and or- dered to be printed. • 

IMPROVEMENT OF HOT SPRING . 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid before the House a letter from 

the Secretary of the Treasury, transmitting estimates from the Secretary of the Interior of an appropriation for the protection and improvement of Hot Springs; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. · 

INDIAN DEPREDATION CLAIMS. 

The SPEAKER JJro tempore also laid before the House a letter· from 

the Secretary of the Interior, transmitting a supplemental report on 

certain Indian depredation claims; which was referred to the Committee on Indian Affairs, and ordered to be printed. · 

DAMAGES FOR COLLISION WITH UNITE_D STATES STEAMER. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid beiore the House a letter from 

the Acting Secretary of the Treasury, transmitting a communication 

from the Secretary of the Navy relative ro a claim for damages resulting 

from-collision of a Japanese junk with United States steamer Ashuelf>t; 

which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered 

to be printed. 

SUPPLEMENTAL ESTTI\IATES OF APPROPRIATIONS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid before the House a letter from 

theSecretaryoftheTreasury, transmittingsupplementales~tesofappropriations fo:r the current :fiscal year; which was. referred to the Committee 011 Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

REPORT OF RED-CROSS CONFERENCE. ~ 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid before the House the following 

message from the President of the United States; which was read, and, 

with the a~mpanying documents, referred to the. Committee on Foreign Afih.irs, and ordered t~ be printed: 

To the House of Represeni.atilc~s of the United ~: . 

I transmit herewith a communication from the Secretary of State, submitting, at the request of a delegate of the United Stales tp the third international con- ference of the Red Cross, he\d in September, 1884, a copy of the preliminary report of that conferenc.e. CHESTER A.• ARTHUR. 

Ex.Ect.'TIVE lUANSlO~, February 2, 1885. 

WITHDRAWAL OF PAPERS. 

ltlr. VAN ALSTYNE, by 11llanimous consent, obtained leave to withdraw from the files of the House, without leaving copies, pape~ in the ca e of Daniel Leary. · · 

JAMES H. BLOUNT. 

Onmotion ofMr. WHITE, of Kentucky, by unairimous consent leave was granted for the withdrawal from the files of the Honse of the papeTS in the case of James H. Blount without leaving certified copies. 

J_oiNT RE OLUTION SIGNED~ 

Ur. NEECE, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

they had examined and found truly enrolled joint resolution (H. Res. 

309) extending the permission granted Maj. William Ludlow by the act 

of February 28, 18 3, to accept a civil position; when the Speaker signed 

the same. 

CHRISTIAN BROTHER 1 COLLEGE, SAINT LOUIS, l\10. 

The SPEAKER pr7> tempore. Under the rule, the Chair will now en- tertain a motion to take up bills and joint resolutions for consideration, 

the order beginning at twenty-two minutes past 12 o'clock. The first 

bill in order is the unfinished business coming over from yesterday, 

which is House bill 6881 on the Priv~te Calendar, for the relief of the 

trn tees of the Christian Brothers' College, of aint Louis, Mo., reported 

with an amendment, and which the gentleman from Missouri [:rtlr. 

O'NEILL] asks be taken up for consideration. 

.M:r. O'NEIJ;.L, of Missouri. I will yiel4 to my colleague [M:r. 

BROADHEAD], in whose district the college referred to was located. 

Their present college is in mine. 

The SPEAKER 'pro tempore. Debate 011 both sides under the rule 

has been exhausted, and the question now is, Is there objection to the 

p-resent consideration of the bill ? 

Mr. HOLMAN. Has the ten minutes of debate been exhausted? 

The SPEAKER pro temp01·e. It was exhausted on yesterday in the 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD~HOUSE. 1387 

reading of the report. ·Is there objection to the consideration of the 

bill? 

There was no objection. 

The question then recurred on the pending_ amendment to strike out 

"35" and insert "20;" so that it will read: 

That there be paid to the trustees or' the Christian Brothers' College, of Saint 

Louis, in the State of Missouri, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of$20,000, in full compensation for the use and occu- pation of the buildings and lands of said college during the late war by the 

United States troops and for injury~ and destruction of property belonging to said trustees by said troops. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. O'NEILL, of Missouri, moved to reconsider the vote by which 

the amendment was agreed to; and also moved that the motion toreconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

The bill as amCinded was ordered to be engrossed and read a third 

time; and being engrossed, it was accordingly read the third time, and 

passed. . · :Mr. O'NEILL, of Missouri, moved to reconsider the vote by which 

the bill as amended was passed; and also moved that the motion to 

reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

:rt!ESSAGE FROM ~ SENATE. 

~message from the Senate, by Mr. MGCoo~ its Secretary, announced 

that it had receded from its amendments to the bill (H. R. 7577) making appropriati~ns for the support of the ~tary Academy for the :fiscal year ending June 30,1886, and for ot.herpurposes. 

It further announced the passage of the bill (H. R. 7&1) making 

appropriatioM for the con.Sular and diplomatic service of the Government for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1886, and for other purposes, 

with amendments; in which concurrence was requested. 

It further announced the passage of the bill (S. 2511) relating to 

claims agents and attorneys in pension cases; in which concurrence was requested. 

APPRAISEl\I.fu"iT AND S.ALE OF LOTS, PERU, IOWA. 

:Mr. PAYSON. l\fr. Speaker, I call up for present consideration 

from the House C'alehdar a bill (H. R. 449) to provide for the appraisement and sale of lots in the town of Peru, Dubuque County, Iowa. 

The bill was read, as follows: · 

Whereas under an act approved · July 2, 1836, and an act amendat-ory thereto, 

approve<W\-la!ch 3, 18?7, entitled "An act for ~ying off the towns of Fort Madi- son and Ir'url!Dgton,.ID the county of Des M01nes, and the towns of Bellevue, 

Dubuque, and Peru, in the county of Dubuque," &c., certain disposition was therein provided for the land'! set off for such towns; and 

'Whereas the site for the said town of Peru, in the year 1840, and the lots thns 

resen-ed, have been settled upon by bona ful.e settlers, wbo have made valuable 

improvements thereon: Therefore, BeitenactedbytheSenattWndHouseof.Repruen.tatit~uoftheUnitedStatuofAmerica in Congress assembled, That the President Q/ the United States appoint three 

commissioners, any two of whom shall be a quorum to do business. who, before 

entering upon the discharge of their duties, sba.ll take an oath to faithfully per- form the same. Said .commissioners shall have power, and it is hereby made 

their duty, to ;yiew said lots and apprai!e their value, not taking into consider- ation the improvements thereon; after which appraisement the pr-oper ;register and the proper receiver shall expose said lots to public sale to the highest bidder, after advertising the same in three public newspapers at least three months, 

reserving from such sale such lots as, according to the records of the OeneFal 

Land Office, have already been paid for or patented: Provided That the actual 

settlers upon said lots who have made valuable imptovements thereon shall first be entitled to purchase the same at their apvraised value. 

SEc. 2. That said commissioners shall each be entitled to $5 per day for each 

day actually employed as provided above, to be paid by the receiver of public 

moneys of the proper land district. 

The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. ·Discussion is now in order for ten' 

minutes; five minutes on each side. 

Mr. PAYSON. 1\'Ir. Speaker, a bill identical with this has twice 

passed the Senate. It was unanimously reported from the Committee on the Public Lands in the Forty-seventh Congress, and this bill is re- ported unanimously by that committee in this COngress. The lands 

affected by it lie in the district of my friend fro:t:n Iowa [Mr. HENDERSON] 1 and he having personal knowledge of the facts connected with it, 

I yield to him the time for explanation. · 

lli. HENDERSON, of Iowa. lli. Speaker, this bill is local in its 

character. I desire to say, in the first place, that it passed in the Fortysixth Congress, passed the Senate in the Forty-seventh Congress, but 

failed of passage in the Honse of Representatives for the sole reason it was not reached on the Calendar. 

In 1836, on July 2, it was provided that certain lots should be laid out 

for the town of Peru, in Dubuque County; my own county. It ran along until1841, when it wasdiscoYeredinsteadofbeing able to build a town at Peru, the city of Dubuque, fourmiles off, had sprung up, 

owing to its peculiar location ~nd the attraction of the lead min.es. This 

defeated the building of a. town atPeru, anditwas wholly abandoned, 

and the section of land was settled upon by squatters, and has been 

occupied since 1840-'41. The squatters hold no title whatever, and it 

has paid no taxes to the county of Dubuque or the State oflowa. 

This legislation, which has been recommended by the Commissioner 

of the General Land Office, as detailed in the report, ,is for the sole purpose 

of appointing commissioners to appraise the value of the lots, not taking 

• in consideration the improvements thereon, and that the bona fuie settlers upon said lo~d tliey are occupied by gardeners ·who supply 

the market of the city of Dubuque-shall first be entitled to purchase 

the same at their appraised value. 

That is the whole purpose of the bill. The county attorney of Dubuque County and other citizens of the county have asked Senator 

ALLisoN of the Senate, and myself in the House, to exert ourselves to secure the passage of the bill. It is desired l;ly everybody there that it 

shall .pass. The land-owne~ themselves desire it, because they prefer 

to have their titles ~ested rather than go on making improvements with 

this uncertainty resting upon them. The county, of Dubuque and the 

State of Iowa desire it1 because then they can compel the owners of this 

land, or the families resident upon it, to pay taxes as well as the rest 

of the citi~ehs of the State. That is the whole purpose of the bill. 

I will yield now for any gentlemen who may desire to ask any questions, if there be any present who feel any trouble about the matter. 

The bill; I repeat, is purely local in its character. 

:Mr. WELLER. I ask for the reading of the report. 

The SPEAKER pro (empore. The gentleman from Iowa can demand 

the reading of the report in the time allowed for debate in opposition 

to the bill, but not in the time of the gentleman from Illinois, who has 

two minutes of his time remaining. · · 

1\Ir. PAYSON. · May I say to the gentleman from Iowa that this re- port siinply recommends the passage of the bill and embodies in it a letter from the Commissioner of the General Land Office recommending 

its passage. . Mr. WELLER. Owing to the confusion prevailing in the Hall I can hear'the report read much better than the statement of the gentleman 

himself. 

The SPEAKER pro tempQre. ~ the gentleman from Iowa desire 

to occupy.his time? 

Mr. PAYSON. I will reserve the remainder of my time. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chaif.thenwill reoogniz~ thegen· 

tleman from Iowa on the right of the Chair for five minutes in opposition. · 

Mr. ·wELLER. In that time I request the report to be read. 

The report (by Mr. LEw~s) was read, as foll.ows: 

The acts of July 2, 1836, and March 3, 1837 (5 Statutes, pages 70 and 178), provided for the sale of the lots in five towns in the then Territory of Wisconsin 

including the town of Peru, mentioned in said bill. The act of 1837 authorized 

certain commissioners to adjudicat-e all pre-emption 'claims to any of the lots in 

the towns in question, and thereafter the proper local officers were empowered to expose the residue of t.he lots to public sale under the regulations in the third 

section of the said act of 183'7. The lands selected for the town of Peru were parts of sections 25, !6, 35, and 36, township 90 north, range 2 east. The towu was laid off into 267 lots of ,·a.rious sizes, with intersecting streets (lnd ~ys. 

;I'be first lot was sold April 26, 18U; and from that time until October 7, 1853, 

eighty-one lots were disposed of to the-several claimants ·under the third sec- tion of said act of 1837. The entries covering said lots were all patented Decem- ber 1, 1846, except two, which were patent-ed October 19, 1853, and the pat-ents tTan mitted to the local o:ffice,then at Dubnque,and it is supposed they were aU 

delivered to the patentees. ·The town of Peru is now wholly abandoned as a town, and the land is wholly occupied for farming purposes by settlers who 

have no title, the. title remaining in the Government. It has been wholly abandoned as a town, and is unsuit-ed for that purpose. - . · The Commissioner of the General Land Office, in response to an .inquiry made 

in reference thereto by the Ron. W. B. ALLisoN, on the 19th of December, 1881, wrote the following letter: 

DEPABrXENT OF THE INTERIOR, GEmAL LAND OFFICE, 

Washington, D. C., December 19, 1881. 

SIR: lam in receipt of your letter of the 12th instant, covering a letter addressed to you by W. :r. Cantillou, esq., dated Dubuque, December 8,1881. relative to the towu site of Peru, in Dubuque C9unty, Iowa, and stating that a petition had 

been forwarded asking for legislation looking toward the disposal of the la,pd 

embraced..in said town site. In yonr letter it is stated tbab "this land is wb.olly occupied for farming purposes by settlers who h:s.ve no title, the title remaining 

in the Government. It has been wholly abandoned as a. town, and is unsuited 

for that purpose. I think a l;>ill ought to be prepared looking to a. sale of this property. It probably should be appraised and the settlers permitted to takeit at the appraised value; they failing to do so, to be sold to the hi~est bidder." In reply I have the honor to advise y~u that the matter of the disposal of the 

land in question bas frequently been the subJect of correspondence with mem- bers of the Senate and House o( Representatives, with a view to the passage of a law providing for the sale of said town sites. Tke acts of :July 2 1836, and 

March 3, 1837 (5 Sta.tt1., 70 and 178), provided for the sale~f the lots in five towns in t.he then Territory of Wisconsin, including said town of Peru. The said act of 1837 authorized certain coiiDDissioners to adjudicate all pre-emption claim.s to any of the lots in the towns in que tion, and therea.ftcr the proper legal ofiicers were empowered to expose the residue of the lots t{) public sale, under the regu- lations in the third section of the said act of 1837. The land selected for the town of Pern-the same being parts of sections 25, 26, 

35, and 36, township 90 north, range 2 east-was.laid. out into two hundred and 

sixty-seven lots of various sizes, with intersecting streets and alleys. On April 

26, 1841, the' first lot was sold, and from that time until October 7, 1853, eighty- one lots were disposed of to the several claimants under the third section of said act of 1837, as will be seen by the inclosed schedule. The entries covering said 

lots, sixty-one in number, were all pa.tented December 1,1846, except two, which were patented on October 19, 1853. The patents were all transmitted to the local 

land office, then ut Dubuque, and it is supposed that they were all delivered to the proper parties. I inclose a. diagram of the town plat, showing the whole 

number of lots, with the word "sold," in red ink, marked upon the lots disposed 

of: I inclose also a diagram of a portion of the township plat, showing the loca· 

tion of the town site. . _ Under the state of fa{)ts as above presented this office cal\ not, in view of the 

rights of the purchasers, -whose names appear in the schedule, recommend that 

the whole town site be sold, but would urge that some law looking t-oward the 

disposal of an the lots remaining unsold should be passed by Congress. The 

lapse of time since the sale of a lot and the enhanced value of the land suggests the advisability of legislation which will provide for the app:raisal of the re- maining lots and their sale to the highest bidder at public auction. The t~htB 
1388 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUAR~ 7, 

• of the settlers who, it is alleged, are now residing on the land, should be pro- tected in such 'a. way as Con~, in its wisdom, may direct. 

Here follows a list of the inclosures to aooompa.ny this communication, viz: 

Diagram of town site, marked .A. Dia~ of township platipart, marked B. 

Schedule of purchasers of ots, marked C. 

I nlso return Mr. Cantillou'sletter. 

Respectfully, 

Jion. W. B . .ALLISON, 

United States Senate. 

N. C. McF .ARLAND, Commisl"io11e1·. 

On these lands are squatted a number of people paying no taxes for State or county purposes, though they have enjoyed the use of these lands for years. .At 

the same time these squatters are anxious to get title~ the places that they are on Considering these facts, and following the :recommendation of the Commisl!io.ner, your committee beg leave to report back the bill and recommend that 

the sa.me do pass. 

. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Illinois bas two 

minutes of his time remaining. 

Mr. PAYSON. I do not desire to occupy the time, as! think itisD:ot 

necessary. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore.· Is there objectitm to the present consideration of the bill? · There being no objection, the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, read the third time, and passed. 

Mr. PAYSON moved to reconsider the vote by which the bill was passed; and also moved that the motion to reconside! be laid on the 

table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

JOHN V. B. BLEECKER. 

Mr. TALBOTT. I ask leave . to take from the Speaker's.table Senate bill No. 1335, to au tho~ the settlement of the accounts of tb~ late 

John V. B. Bl~ecker, a paymaster i.iJ. the Navy, and put the same upon 

its passage. · The bill was read, as fo~ows: 

Be it enacted, &c., That the accounting officers of the Treasury of the United 

States be, and they are hereby, directed, in settling the accounts of the late John 

V.B.Bleecker,a paymaster in the United States Navy;to credit him with the amount charged against him on their books, namely, $3,531.36. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. Is there a report accompanying this bill? 

Mr. TALBOTT. Tbereisareport. Iwillsaytbatthisbillpassed the 

Senate unanimously, and the report was adopted unanimously by the 

Committee on Naval Affairs. · 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. I ask that the report be 1·ead. 

The report is as follows: 

The facte in this case are as follows: 

Paymaster Bleecker was, at the request of .Admiral D. D. Porter, commanding the Mississipp · squadron, ordered to duty a.s purchasing paymaster of that 

squadron June 8, 1864, and entered upon that duty at Mound City about July 1, 

~~en he received these orders he was just recovering from a severe ntta<Jkof 

Illness, incurred by long and arduous service as fleet paymaster in the Gulf 

squadron. .Although far from well, he did not ask for sick-leave, but hastened to carry out his orders. . · Paymaster Bleecker remained on duty at Mound City, lll., until the last of October the same year. .At that time he was so ill with typhoid fever that he was sent to his home in New York city, where he died on the SUi ofNovember,1864., 

three daysa.fter his arrival. His clerk was compelled to accompany him to New 

York, and, consequent to• such a hurried departure, no time was had to place 

any one in charge of his office. His papers, accounts, vouche:r:s, bills, personal effects, &c., were left behind, and, no one properly looking after them, were hurriedly and confusedly packed in boxes and shipped to the Fourth .Auditor for 

adjustment and settJement. His widow states that she has never been able to obtain his personal effects. 'l'he Fourth .Auditor states that his accounts as ren- dered show that Paymaster Bleecker, while on duty as purchasina- paymaster, Mississippi squadron, received moneys from the United States amounting to 1818 400, and disbursed upon three hundred and eighty-four vouche~ the sum of $325,124.60, and there was returned to the Government $489,511.50, leaving apparently unaccounted for $3,663.86. This balance was reduced, however, by 

()J'edits allowed him, $133, and by an e:rror ih his account of 50 cents against him, 

leaving the amount charged against him. on the books of the Treasury Depart- ment 13,531.3G. · In collecting his papers, many vouchers and receipted bills for stores pur- chased were undoubtedly lost or destroyed, which if they could have been found 

would have satisfactorily accounted· for the apparent deficit now held in said 

Bleecker's accounts. . · . ·His entire record from his entry into the naval service in 1847.is an excellent one •. I(is accounts have always been rendered promptly and satisfactorily, and as an evidence that the l\CCOunting officers do not think there was any criminal 

intent on the part of Paymaster Bleecker it need only be said that he has now been dead twenty years, and they have never taken any steps toward compell- ing his bondsmen to make up the apparent indebtedness to the Go.vernment.of 

the United States. The committee call special attention to this fact, and believe 

it will be accepted as conclusive evidence that Bleecker never entertained an idea of defrauding the Government which he so faithfully served, and to which 

he gave his life. His widow is poor and. has a family; she prays Congress to annul this amount charged against her late husband; she does not wish to have his name handed 

down as a. defaulter. and takes a becoming pride in wishing to wipe out this apparent dishonor of the father of her children. 

Congress has passed seyeral bills relieving paymasters of similar charges held · against them on the books of the Government. - In the Forty-fifth Congress a law passed fQr the relief of Paymaster Cushing, who had charged against him $1.0,000; ip the Thirty-ninth CQngress there was enacted a. law for the relief ofPaymaster James Fult~n; in the Forty-sixth eon- gress a bill for the relief of Pay-Director Cunningham, whose clerk (an officer 

for whom he was responsible) embezzled funds under the paymaster; and again in the Fort.y-seventh Congress an act was passed relieving Edward K. Winship, an acting assistant paymaster, of funds charged against him to the e:xtent of 

i\S~~r committee, theJefore, recommend the passage oft~~ bill, believing it to be but a. simple act of justice. · 

The record of @ervice of tlle late Paymaster Bleecker is herewith given : 

.Abstract of the seroices of J. V. B. Bleecker, late paymasur United Statu Navy, com·· mi&tioned a purser i1t the Navy January 16, 1847. 

March 13, 18-!7.-To the steamer Union. 

May 25, 1847.-Detached and settle accounts. July 16, 1847.-To the Relief. 

.August 11, 1848.-Detached and settle a«lounts. 

July 7, 184_9.-To the Vandalia. 

October 12, 1852.-Deta.ched and settle accounts. .Tune 25,1853.-To the Decatur. · September 21.1853.-Transferred to the Dale. • January 17, 1856.-Detached from Dale and settle accounts. .April 1, 1856.-To receiving-ship at Boston. 

April 30, 1858.-Detached, and to the 1\Iacedonian 15th 1\Iay. .July H, 1860.-Detached and settle accounts. . September 1, 186().-To t.he navy-yard Portsmouth, N. H. 

August 8, 1863.-Detached October 1 and wait orders. 

October 3, 1863.-To the East Gulf squadron as fleet pa.ymaswr. l\Iay 20, 1864.-Detached and wait orders. 

June 8, 1864..-To M~issippi squadron as purcha~ing paymaster. Died at New York November 8, 1864.. 

Total sea. service-Nine years, ten months, twenty days. Total .shore duty-Five y~. four months. 

[During the reading of the report the hammer fell. 

The SPEAKER pro temp01·e. The time allowed for debate in support 

of the bill has expired. ' 

Mr. W ARl-.TER, of Ohio. I take the floor for the time allowed in opposition, and ask that the reading of the report be concluded. 

The Clerk resumed and concluded the reading of the report as above.] 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. I desire to ask the gentleman in charge of 

this bill if this is ~he sAme bill that passed the Senate? 

Mr. TALBOTT. Yes, sir; and reported unanimously from the Senate committee, as well as from the Honse committee. · The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the present con- sideratjon of the bill? 

There being no objection, the bill was taken from the Speaker's table, 

read by its title a first and second time, ordered to a t.hird reading, read 

the third time, and passed. . Mr. TALBOTT moved to reconsider the Yote by which the bill was passed; and also moved that the motion to reconside:c be laid on the ~~ . 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

DR.A WB.ACK ON CJI;RTAIN IMPORTED MATERIAL. · 

Mr. RUSSELL. I ask to call up the bill (H. R. 7651) to amend sec- tion 3019 of the nevised Statutes, relating to drawback on duties on imported material when manufactured and exported. 

The bil1 is as follows: 

Be it enacted,&c., That sect·ion 3019ofthe • Revised Statutes be amended • so that 

it will read : · . "SEc. 3019. There shall be allowed on all articles wholly manufactured of ma- terials imported, on which duties have been paid, when exported, a drawback 

equal in amount to the duty paid on such materio.ls, and no more, to be ascer- tamed under such 1·egulations as shall be prescribed .by the Secretary of the 

'rreasury; and all provisions of law inconsistt;nt herewith are hereby r~pealed.'' 

Mr. MILLS. I make the point of order that that bill was called up ·under this rule for consideration the other day and w~ rejected. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. What point does the gentleman make? 

Mr. }.fiLLS. That it is not competent to call up a bill under this 

rule which has been called up and refused to be co~idered. · .The S:PEA.KER pro tempore. The Chair does· not' understand that 

the point of order is. gOod in its application to the operation of this rule. 

This bill is . on the Calendar, and the gentleman has the right to call 

it up. 

Mr. MILLS. Can the gentleman offer the same. bill repea.tedly un- der this rule? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not know of anything 

in the rul~ to· prevent any gentleman who is recognized from offering 

the same bill, if he shall see proper to do so. . · Mr. MILLS. I think there ought to be1. if there is not, some limit, so that he shall not ask day after day to consider the same bill. 

Mr. WELLER. I raised the same question of order the other day, 

and I should like to have a decision of the Chair upon it. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair decided it then, and over- rules the point of order now. 

The gentlema~ from Mas&Whusetts is recognized for five minutes in 

support of the .bill. . 

Mr. RUSSELL. I propose to submit an amendment to the bill. 

Mr. WELLER. I wish to inquire if the time for offering objections 

has arrived? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore.· It has not. The Chair will call for 

objection after the time for debate has expired. 

The Chair will state to the gentleman from Massachusetts that the 

time has not arrived for offering amendments to the ·bill, as it is not 

yet befor~ the House. · Mr. RUSSELL. I yield two minutes to the gentleman from Alabama 

[Mr. HERBERT]. 

:Mr. HERBERT. This bill simply proposes that instead of 10 per 

cent. being retained upon all goods. manufactnredw holly of foreign ma- terial, the drawback shall be lOOper cent. This policy, Mr. Speaker, 

has long obtained. · The law at present allows a drawback of 90 per 

cent. upon an·goods manufactured of foreign material. This hill pro-
• 

1885. CONGRESSIONAL. RECORD-HOUSEo 1389 

poses to allow 100 per cent. The 10 per cent. at present retain~d was originally provided for in order ·to pay the expenses of collecting the 

drawbaek. 

In the case of sugar the amount of cost has been found to be not as much as 1 per cent., and consequently heretofore the 1 has been so 

chanued as to allow 99 per cent. to be refunded on sugars. This bill 

pro~ses to allow 100 per cent. on everything. . In committee I preferred that the ~whack should be ~9 per c.ent:, 

and that the Government should ret.1.m 1 per cent. to mdemnify It 

against the cost of collection. But the 1 per cent. is a matter of little 

or no importance. . The principle of the bill is simply this: To allow foreign _mate~ial 

imported here to be marked up by our own people for exportation Without any duties being charged _by the ~ve~ment. I can no~ se~ how 

it will injuriously affect any 1r.terest m this co-.ntry. It will S_JIDP~Y 

result in giving employment to a larger number of workmen mthout 

affecting the general interests of the business of the country. · The 

amount of foreign material that can be imported into this eountry and 

worked up into manufactures for exportation will never be very large so long as labor with us is higher than jt is in foreign countries. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Massachusetts 

[?t!r. RussELL] has two minutes of his time remaining. · · · Mr. RUSSELL. I desire to say that this bill is in the interest of ·American manufactures and American labor. TI1e present law provides 

that when an article manufactured wholly of imported material on 

·which a duty haB been paid and the mannfaetn:ed ~rticle i~ exported, it 

is entitled to a drawl)ack of 90 per cent. This b~Jl prov1des that the 

whole amount of duty on the imported material shall be paid back, 

which enables us to more successfully compete with many articles of 

domestic manufacture in a foreign market; and I hope that this-being 

in the interest of American labor-bill will pass. 

Mr. DINGLEY . . Will t-he gentleman from l'llassacha..<:etts for one 

moment permit an inquiry? 

Mr. RUSSELL. Certainly. 

Mr. DINGLEY. As I understand, the Jaw since 1790 has·proviued 

for a drawback of 90 per cent. on all.articles imported for manufacture 

when re-exported. And I understand the only amendment proposed 

is to make the drawbaek 100 per cent. instead of 90. 

Mr. RUSSELL. That is the effect of it. 

The SPEAKER pro te1npore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman 

from Texas [Mr. MILLS] to control the time in opposition to the bill. 

:Mr. MILLS. A long·time ago a law was made that 90 per cent. of 

the duty paid on all articles entering into manufactures th:'l.t were Teexported should be refunded to the party paying the tax. That bas 

been the policy of the Government for many years. It is proposed now by this bill to give to the mannfacturerthewholeofthemoneythathe 

pays .on the raw material entering into the manufactures that are reexported. The doctrine has been sta~d by the gentleman from Alabama [Ur. HERBERT] this morning that that 10 per cent. was retained 

in order to pay the cost of collection. I have always understood all 

ta~es were imposed by the Government of the United States for the purpose of raising revenue. But now ;;e are tol~ this tax.~as imposed 

simply to pay the expense of collection. Here IS the position assumed 

by the manufacturers: They are in favor of free trade as :fhr as it con- cerns all raw-materials which they buy in order to manufacture goods 

to sell in the open markets of the world, and they are opposed to every 

reduction of tax.ation on the finished product that the people of the 

United States have to consume. That is just the proposition of tlris 

bill· to give to the manufactu.rersabsoluteand unconditional freetrade 

in all the material~ entering into the manufacture of their products, 

while you charge the people of the United States 100, 110,120, 140, and 

150 per cent., and refuse all the time to permit the reduction of one farthing on the necessaries of life to the poorest part of our pop~lation. I 

hope there are gentlemen enough in this House who have not bowed 

their knees to Baal to prevent the consummation of such a purpose. 

Mr. WELLER. There are. Mr. HERBERT. 1 wish to ask the gentleman from Texas [Mr. 

MILLS] has it not been the rule in all a<lm.llrlstrations from the beginning of the Government to allow this drawback_:.even in the Walker 

tariff? 

Mr. MILLS. ~inety per cent. has been the rule all the time.- Mr. HERBERT. In all administrations. And Iasktbegentleman 

further: Will he deny that the 10 per cent. retained was for the purpose of paying the cost of collection? 

lli. WASHBURN. Iwishtoaskthegentlemanfrom Texas whether 

this changes the principle of paying drawbacks. 

:Mr. MILLS. It cllanges the principle as far as the paying back of 

the 10 per cent. is conceme<l. · · 

Mr. WASHBURN. Then yon should change it altogether. 

l\Ir. WELLER. I should like to hear the report read. 

.Mr. MILLS. Oh, no; let us vote. . 

Mr. WELLER. I withdraw the demand for the reading of the report. . Objections be.lng called for, more than the requisite number of mem- bers objected. 

PUBLIC BUILDING AT NEW ALBANY. 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. I call up the bill (S. 1040) to provide for the 

construction of a -public building at New Albany, Ind. · · The bill was read, as follows: 

Be it enacted, &:c., That the Secretary of the .Treasury be, an~ he is .hereby, authorized and directed to purchase, or otherWISe procure, a swte.ble site for a public building, which site. shall leaye the building unexposed to da~ger fr?m 

fire in adjacent buildings py an open space of not less than fifty feet, mcluding streets and alleys. and cause to be erected thereon, at the city of New Albany, in the State of·I~diana, a. substantial and commodious public building, with 

fire-proof vaults, for the use of the United States district and cir~uit courts, the 

internal-revenue service, and the post-office; the plans and esttmates for said 

building having first been prepared, examined, and approved as reqwred by section 3734 of the Revised Statutes of the United States;upon calculations and 

specifications that will insure the completion of the building at a co~ not to ex- ceed the snm of $100 000, which sum is bereby appropriated out of any money in the Treasury not' otlierwise appropriated: Provided, That no money" to be 

appropriated for said building shall be used until a valid title to the site selected 

shall be vested in the United States, nor until tbe State of Indiana shall have 

ceded to the United States jurisdiction over the same for all purposes during the 

time the Government shall be or remain the owner thereof, except for the en- forcement of th·e criminal laws of the State and the service of civil process 

therein. · 

l\lr. STOCKSLAGER. In 1857, when the construction branch of 

the Trea'5ury Department was under the control of Captain B~wman, 

an engineer officer. of the Army, he recommended the constructiOn of a public building at the city of New Albany. He also~epeated that rec- ommendation in 1858 and 1859. Since th~t time the city has more than don bled in population and commercial importance. Thirteen 

years ago Federal courts were established there. This bill, or a similar one, was favorably reported in the Forty-sixth and F?rty-seventh 

Congresses: The present bill has ~assed the Senate. un~ously. A 

similar·bill has been reported to this House and considered m theCommittee of the Whole House on the state of the Union, ~dafter full 

discussion it passed that committee by a. vote of 151 to 20. I hope 

there will be no objection to this bill and that it will pass. 

Mr. W AR~ER, of Ohio. Is there a. report? 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. Yes, sir. 

Ur. WAR~ER, of Ohio . • Let it be read. 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. I have it here. ItistbereportontbeHouse ·bill, not. on the Sen[l.te bill. If the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. WARNER] uesires it read, I ask that it be read in his time. . . Ur. WARNER, ofOhio. -No. I'Yanttoofferanamendmenttothe 

Lill. 

Mr. HOLl\IAN. I wish to suggest to my colleague [Mr. STOCKSLAGER], as chah·man of the Committee on Public Buildings and 

Grounds, that one of the most serious objections to bills of this class is 

that there is never any certainty that the amount appropriated will 

finally complete the building. - · · · 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. I suggest to my colleague that that is not 

the fault ofCongress. This bill is now carefully guard~don that point. 

lli. HOLMAN. I hope we will make it the fault of Congress if it occurs hereafter. With a view of obviating that objection to this bill, 

I shall move to amend by striking out the remainder of the paragraph 

after the words "United States," in line.15, and inserting the amendment which I send to the desk and ask the Clerk to read. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will inform the gentleman 

from Indiana. [Mr. HoL:UAN] that the bill is not before the House. 

l\Ir. HOLMAN. I am making a suggestion to my colleague [:Mr. 

STOCKSLAGER] as to this amendment, and I wish the Clerk to read the 

language now contained in the pa.ragraph after the words _ "Umted 

States," us I have indicated, and the amendment which I propose. 

The Clerk read a portion of the bill, as follows: 

Upon calculations and specifications that will insm:e the c~mpletion of the 

building at a cost Qot to e~ceed the sum of $100,000, w~ch sum Is. hereby appro- priated out of any money m the Treasury not otherwise appropnated. 

lli. HOLMAN. The Clerk has read enough. Now I ask_ my colleague to accept an amendment which I will ask the Clerk to read. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

And it shall be the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury, after the site for said 

building shall have been purchased, to cause a. plan and specifications of said 

building to be prepared, which plan and specifications shall.not involve an ex- penditure, in the erection and completion of said building and the approaches thereto exceeding the portion of said $100,000 remaining after the s1te of said 

building shall have been paid for; and no plan for said building shall be ap- proved by the Secret-ary of the Treasury involving an e~enditure exceeding the sum so remaining after paying for the site of said building. 

Mr. HOLMA~. 1\lr. Speaker, the real trouble with these approp~ 

tions for public buililings, the thing which excites indignation all over the country, is, that when an appropriation is made for the erection of a. building at a given cost it nearly-always happens that a large portion 

of the sum appropriated is expended for the site, combinations are form.edf 

and Congress is 'called upon for additional appropriations. It is to cor~ 

rect that evil in this case that I propose this amendment, and I hope 

my colleague [Mr. STOCKSLAGER) will accept it. l 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. lU;. Speaker, I desire to say that so far as I am concerned I would have no objection at all to this amendment; bu~ · 

The SPEAKER pro tentpore. The gentleman's time has expired. 
• 

1390 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. The remarks of my colleague [Mr. HoLliiAN] were not to be· taken out of my .time. 

The SPEAKER pro t-empore. The time of the gentleman from Indiana (Mr. STOCKSLAGER] is exhausted. 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. Mr. Speaker, it ·was distinctly stated that 

the time occupied by my colleague [Mr. HOLMAN] was not to be-taken 

out of my time. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman's colleague [Mr. HoLMAN] controls the time on the other side, and probably the gentlemen 

cait arrange as to the time. 

Mr. HOL1r1AN. I think the time that I consumed should not be 

charged to my colleague [lli. STOCKSLAGER]. 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. Mr. Speaker, I merely want to suggest that 

that amendment is right in principle, but I do not-- · 

Mr. W~LIS. If the gentleman in charge of this bill [Mr. ·STOCKSLAGER] will permit me, I will suggest that he is putting the bill "in a hole," because when an amendment _is adopted here the bill must go 

back to the Senate. 

1\Ir. STOCKSLAGER. That is the difficulty. The amendment· is 

right in itself; but if it were adopted the bill would have to go. back to 

the Senate, and at this late d.ay in the session it probably could not be 

considered. there. If it were a House 'bill; or if it were 'earlier in the 

session, I should accept the amendment witho_ut heSitation. 

Mr: HOLMAN. I guess.the Senate can act upon it. 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. · The Forty-sixth and Forty-seventh Congresses adopted a form of bill for public buildings which, as completely as seemed practicable, Jimited the amount of the original appropriation, and this goes 51 step further in the sa.me direction. 

The amendment offered by my colleague [Mr. HoL IAN] is right in 

itBelf, but I trust he will not press it, because if this bill is amended 

and goes ba.C"k to the Senate it can not be considered at this session. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I -was about to offer an amendment to this bill--. . 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will inform the gentleman 

from Ohio [Mr. WARNER] that the bill is not before the House. 

1r1r. W .ARNER,_ of Ohio. I was about to offer an amendment (to be 

read in my time) of the arne purport as that which has been suggeste~ 

by the gentleman from Indiana [.Mr. HOLMAN], but as his covers the 

ground I withhold mine. · . 

I wish, however, to offer a few reasons and present a few facts to 

show why such an amendmen.t should be adopted upon every bill' of 

this kind: I desire to cite from the report of the Supervising Architect of the Treasury Department 8ome figures on this subject. 

In the case of the post-office at Harrisburg, Pa., the cost was originally limited to '160,00~. For that building there bas already been 

appropriated UJ; 0, 000. In the case of the building at Nash ville, Tenn., 

the cost was originally limited to $150,000, and there have been appropriated for that building $424,000. For the court-house at Pittsburgh, Pa., the limit of cost was originally fixed at 300,000. Eight 

hundred thousand dollars 'have already been expended upon that building, and this House recently passed a bill appropriating-how much 

more? A million more, I believe. In the case of the court-house at 

Parkersburg,· Va.,'the cost ..,was originally limited to 150,000, and 

$243,000 have been appropnated. 

The SPEAKER pro temp01·e. The time for debate on thls bill has 

expired.' 

Mr. WARNER, ofOhio. There are a dozen other cases oftbis kind 

which I might state if time were allo:;ved. 

The SPEAKER pio tempore. Is there objection to the present con- sideration of this bill? 

Mr. BENNETT. I object. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I trust my colleague (Mr. STOCKSLAGER] will ac- cept the amendment I have suggested. · . 

Mr. SJ_'OCKSLAGER. It may be offered and voted upon. 

Ur. WARNER, of Ohio. I have no objection to the bill if the amendment be accepted. · 

Mr. STOCKSLAGER. I have no objection to the amendment being_ offered and voted upon by the House, but <lo not like to accept it for the reasons I have stated. 

Objections being called for, thirteen members objected. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Objection b~ing made by more than 

ten members, the bill is not before the House. 

~TAR, ETC., FOR CATHOLIC CHlJRCH, CARROLLTOWN, J?A. 

Mr. CilfPBELL, of Pennsylvania.· I ask that tbe Committee of 

the Whole House on· the Private Calendar be discharged from the further consideration of the bill which I send to the de k and that it be now considered and passed. . 

· The Clerk read as follows: 

A bill (H. R. 7551) admitting free of duty an altar and church regalia for the 

Catholic church at Carrolltown, Pa. · 

Be it entl.cted by the Senate a~d House of RepresentatitJes of 11~.-e Unit-ed States of .America in Oonqress assembled, That the Secret.ary of the Treasury be, and he is 

hereby, authorized and directed t~ admit free of import duty thirteen cases of 

church regalia_ import-ed by DugelsJedt & Co., August 25, 1884, in the steamer Werra,irom Bremen to New York, marked" L. C. B.," and numbered from620 to 632, inclusive, containing a Gothic altar, with statues for the same, import-ed by order and for the exclusive use of the Catholic church at Carrolltown., Pa, 

The SPEAKER pro temp01·e. Ten minutes are now Jl~ewed for the 

discussion of this bill. 

Mr. CAMPBELL, of Pennsylvania. 1 will not now occupy the time 

of the House by discussing the bill. The simple reading of it explains 

its purpose. do not think there will be any objection to its consideration. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the present con- sideration -of this bill? 

1\fr. WELJ;.ER. I call for the reading o( the I'eport. · The report (by Mr. HISCOCK) was read, as follows: 

The Committee on Ways and 1\leans, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. 7551) admitting free of .duty an altar and chm·ch regalia for the Catholic chu.rch at Canolltown, Pa., ba>e bad the same under consideration, and re pectfully 

report: 

That the propo ed remission of duty is upon article excl~ively for the use of a. religious institution, and not for sale, and following a precedent established 

by the passage of many such claims, the committee recommend the enactment ofthis bill i.il.to law. · 

.Ur. WELLER. I have no objection to the bill. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the present con- sideration of the bill? 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indian.'\. There is objectio11. 

Mr. WARNER, of O~o. Was-there discussion on this.bill? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The opportunity was offered, but no gentleman took the floor to debate the bill. 

Mr. WARNER, of Ohio. I wished simply to ~k a question-why _the articles named in the bill ca-n not be admitted free of duty under 

the existing law without a. special act? Upon articles 'imported for 

charitable or religious purposes there is·no duty imposed by the law, as I understand. 

l\1r. 'OAMPBELL, of Pennsylvania: It was supposed tha.t these ar- ticles would come in free of duty, but the ruling of the Treasury Department was otherwise; hence the necessity of the pass!lgeofthisbill. 

Objections being called for, only five members objected. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The bill is now before the House for 

consideration . . The first question is upon ordering it to be engrossed 

and read a tlllrd time. 

The question being taken, there were-ayes 105, noes 7. 

1r1r. SKINNER, of North Carolina. No quorum. 

The SPEAKERprotemj>are. The point being made that no quorum 

has voted, t.he Chair appoints as tellers the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. SKINNER, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania, 1rlr. 

CAMPBELL. 

The House again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 157, noes 14. 

So the bill wusordered to be engrossed and read a third time; and it was accordinaly read the third time and pa ed. 

Ur. CAUPBELL, of Pennsylvania, moved to recollSide-r the vote by 

which the bill was passed; and also moved that the. motion t;o recon- sider be laid on the table. · · The latter motion was agreed to. 

]}'[QB~LE .AND OHIO RAILROAD COMPANY. 

~fr. DORSHEIMER. I. call up for present wnsideration the joint 

resolution (S. R. 4) to provide for settlement of accounts with the 1\Iobile and Ohio Railroad Company. 

The joint resolution was read, as follows: 

Whereas by act of Congress approved February ?:7,1B75, entitled "An act to 

provide for settlement with certain railway companies," the Secretary of War and the Attorney-General were authorized ·to make such abat-ements in th& ac- counts of the companies named in said act as they might find just; and . Whereas the Secretary of War and the AttoTney-General having determined 

and agreed upon a basis for such abat-ements and settlements, it was found that 

the Mobile and Ohio Railroad CQmpany had so far paid its accounts that the 

abatements determined upon would not only extinguish the balance claimed 

against said company, but would also require the return of a portion of the money already paid by it; and . Whereas the aid act not making any appropriation or pr-<»i ion for the returti 

of any money, no settlement was made with the MobileandOhioRa.ilroad Com- pany as contemplated by said act, and its accounts still remain unadjusted and 

unsettled: Therefore, Resolved. by the Senate and. House of Repruentatives of the Unmd. Stc£tesof Ame,.ieli in Oongreas assembled., That the Secretary of War and the Attorney-General be 

and they are hereby, authorized and directed jointly to adjust and finally settl~ the accounts of the United States with the l'l'Iobile and Ohio Railroad Company for property r~ceived from the United St-ates in the years 1865 and 18661 as pro- vided for in the act of CQngress approved February '1:7, 1875, and upon tne &~ome 

basis of settlement and upon the same tenn.s and conditions as wa done with 

other companies included in said act. . SEC. 2. That when said accoqnts have been adjusted, if it shall be found that 

the adjustment upon the basis herein provided for requires the return of any money heretofore paid by the 1\lobile and Ohio Railroad CQmpany on said ac- counts, the Secretary of 'Var be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to is ue his warrant on the Treasury of the United States in favor of said company for the amount of money su to be returned; and the amount necessary for such purpose is hereby appropriated out of any moneys in tht~ Treasury of the United 

States not otherwise appropriated. 

Mr. WELLER (during the reading of the joint resolution). 1\Ir. 

Speaker, 1 make the point that the hour for the consideration of bills 

under this order has expired. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair o:verrules the point of order . The Clerk concluded the reading of the joint resolution. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The hour has now expired. The gentleman from New York [Mr. DORSHEIMER] will be recognized again 

when this order is reached. 

•. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD--HOUSE. 1391 

Mr. DORSHEIMER. This will come up in the next hour under 

this order? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It will come up in the hour of Monday 

n~~ . - QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. 

Mr. GIBSON. Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of personal privilege. · The SPEAKER pro te~npo1· . The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. GIBSON. During the discussion yesterday on the river and harbor bill, a colloquy occurred between the chairman af the Committee 

on Rivers and Harbors [Mr. WILLIS] and the gentleman from -Tennessee [Ur. YouNG]. It struck me at the time there was misapprehension on the part of both gentlemen as to what was said. Since that 

time I have ~refully examined the RECORD,. and I have had conversations with both gentlemen as well as other gentlemen orr this floor, 

and I am sa.tisfied a statement- · 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana. I rise, Mr. Speaker, to a question of 

order. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Th~ gentleinan will state it. 

Mr . .BROWNE, of In~na. I make the point that the gentleman 

from West Virginia is not stating any question of personal privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. A.s far as the gentleman has gone the 

Chair does not think he is stating any question of pemonal privileg~ 

Mr. GIBSON. I could not make myself understood without first 

making a preliminary statement. 

Mr. KEIFER. For how long a time? 

Mr. GIBSON: I will be brief. · . 

. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will ask the gentleman to 

state his question of personal privilege. 

Mr. GIBSON. There was language used which was taken to be a 

reflection on a member of this House by another member. 

.?tfr. KEIFER. Was it on you? 

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; on me partially. I can not see why any gentleman should object- . Mr. CANNON. Mr. Speaker, I wish to know if"it·is in order forme 

to ask by unanimous consent that pending the consideration of the 

river and harbor appropriation bill every gentleman upon the floor who 

may desire to do so sb.all have the right to print in the RECORD whatever he m.'\y choose, as a matter of personal privilege, so as not otherwise to take up the time and attention of the House. If so, I will ask 

unanimous consent for that purpose. [ •' Good ! ''] · 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to therequestofthe 

gentleman from Illinois? · 

Mr. SKINNER, of New York. Yes, I object. 

The SPEAKER pro· tempore. The gentleman from West Virginia 

will state his question of personal privilege. · 

Mr. GIBSON. I was about to state that in the language used yesterday it appeared the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. YotrNG] reflected on members of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors as well as 

on the chairman of that committee. 

Mr. STORM. Did he reflect on you? 

Mr. GI.BSON. Yes; for I am a member of that committ-ee. 

Mr. BROWNE, of Indiana . . I still insist on my. point of order. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. And the Chair feels compelled to sustain the point of order, as the gentle)llall from West Virginia, in the 

judgment of the Chair, has not stated any question of personal privilege. [Cries of" Regular order!"] · 

Mr. GIBSON. · I will try ~hen to re~tate it. 

The SPEAKER .pro tempore. The Chair must recognize the gentleman from West Virginia [Mr. WILSON] to a privileged report. 

PROTECTION OF CHILDREN. 

. 1\Ir. WILSON,ofWest Virginia. I submit the following privileged. 

conference report. · • The Clerk read as follows: · 

The commi~tee or conference on the disagreeing ~otes of the two Houses on the amendments of the House to bill of the Senalte No. 729 "for ~he protection of children in the District of Columbia., and for other purposest having met, 

after full e.nd Cree conference have agreed to recommend and ao recommend to their respective Houses as follows: I. In line 20, page 1 of the bill, that the Senate recede from its disagreement to the amendment of the House, and agree to the same with the addition of the · 

~~r,s ~r :~!·~ ~~~~e~ clause will read "in their presence or sight;" and 

IL In line 27, page 2 of the bill, that in lieu of the word " twenty-one" as amended by the House to read "sixteen," both Houses agree t~ the substiu;tion 

of the word "eighteen." • W1!I. L. WILSON, 

J. THOS. SPRIGGS, E. JEFFORDS, 

Managers on the part of the House. 

H . H. RIDDLEBERGER, 

AUSTIN F. PIKE, 

Managers on the part of t-he Senate. 

The statement accompanying the report is as follows: 

The managers on the piut of the House of the conference on the disagreeinoo votes of the two Houses to the amendments of the House to the bill of theSe~ ate 729 "for the protection of children in the District of Columbia, and for other 

purposes," submit 'the following statement in explanation of the conference re- port: · I. In aection 2 of the original bill authority was conferred on certnin officers 

"t~ arrest without warrant all persons violating withtn their view any la.w re- lating t~ or affecting the protection of children," &c. The House substituted for 

the words "within their view" the words" ii}. their presence," as less equivocal. The Senat-e ngrces to this amendment w.ith the addition of the words •• or sigh~ 1 ' 

so that the clause will read, line 20, page 1 of the bill, " in their presence or sight .' 1 • 

and the House consent to this addition. 1 

ll. In section 4 of the bill it was made criminal "to ei).tice1 decoy, place or take 1lTl.y female ~hJld under the age of 21 years int~ any house of ill-fame u k The House substituted "16 years" for "2L yeal'S." Both-Houses now airee ~n "18 years." WM. L. WILSON, . E. JEFFORDS, 

J. THOS. SPRIGGS, 

Managers on the parl of the House. 

Mr. WILSON, of West Virginia. I ask the adoption of that report. 

The report was adopted. • 

1\;U· W.ILSON, of West Virginia, moved to reconsider the vote by 

wh~ch the report was adopted; and also moved that the motion toreconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

QUESTION OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE. 

Mr. YOUNG. 111r. Speaker, I desire to correct !IDme inaccuracies in 

the RECORD of this · morning, and that may involve incidentally the 

necessity of correcting myself somewhat. · 

Mr. KEIFER. That can only be done by llllailimons consent. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Tennessee has a right to .correct the RECORD. · 

· Mr. KEIFER. That is, if he states the RECORD reports him inaccurately then that is a correction of the RECORD. · 

1\Ir. YOUNG. If the gentleman will let me alone I will state briefly 

what I desire. 

Mr. KEIFER. It is a question of privilege to correct the RECORD. 

The S.PEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman said that was his object. , · 

1\Ir. YOUNG. Who decides the .question, the gentleman from Ohio~ 

or the Chair? 

1\lr. KEIFER. If the gentleman is so facetious about it the Chair 

has been trying to be very kind to him-- · ' 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Tennessee will 

state hls correction. · 

1\fr. KEIFER. He stated he ro&e to a correctionofthe RECORD. · I 

understood him to say that he rose to a question 'Of privilege to correct 

himself. 

1\Ir. YOUNG. ·Is it not a question of personal privilege ·to correct 

the RECORD? 

1\Ir. KEIFER. No, sir. . Mr. YOUNG. · I do not understand what a question of privileO'e is 

then. · . · · o ' 

The SPEAKER pro tentpore. The gentleman will address the Chair. 

Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Speaker, wliat I wish to say in brief is this: The 

RECORD this morning reports me. as saying in _my remarks yesterday 

that I had had a conversation with every member on the Committee on Rivers and· Harbors and I found but one who assumed the responsibility of a. measure to which I objected. I did not think I had made 

such a statement until I was informed by the gentleman from Michigan [1\Ir. HORR] and one or two other gentlemen that that was my language. When my attention was . called to it I corrected iii in a subsequent part of my temarks. 

I did not intend to state that I had . had a conversation with every· 

member of the committee. I did intend to state what was a fact, and 

what I thought I had stated, that I had spoken to 3 number of membe!S, and that every member to whom I had: spoken, while not perhaps 

usrng t~e. ~xac~ languag~ emp~oye~ by me, rn substance disavowed any r~pons1bility ~connection -w:~th tt; and every one of these gentlemen 

did say-that IS, every one Wlth whom I spoke-that he was of opinion 

that this particular appropriation should be made, but the committee 

decided differently. That· statement I had made to the chairman of 

the committee three days befote I uttered it upon the floor of this House.' 

I certainly had no intention of attacking the motives of any member of 

the committee: nor .to question their right to pursue theit own convictions of public duty. I only intended in an emphatic but respectful 

manner to express my dissent from their views, and this I had a perfect 

right to do, but I had no intention of being offensive to any single one of them. 

1\Ir. Speaker, this question aftects a great interest that has been confided to my care in this House, and I felt it to be my duty to protect that 

;interest ~th all the power I. oould command. I conceived it to be my 

duty to pomt out what I believed to be the errors and omissions which 

appeared in the bill. That it was my duty to do, and had I failed in it I 

should have been unfaithful to the trust confided to me by the people 

who sent me here to represent them and their interesis. The misunderstanding what I said has grown out of the necessity I was under of 

attempting to crowd an hour's speech into five minutes' time, and in 

undertaking to accomplish such a thing as that it is quite natural that 

some mist.akes should occur. I repeat now that I disclaim any intention of reflecting unjustly upon a member of the committee in the 

remarks that I made yesterday, nor would I have believed that I made some attributed to me, nor that they could have been construed as of-

' 
1392 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

fensive, had I not been informed by a number of gentlemen, perhaps 

less liable to be mista.ken than I, that they were open to that criticism. 

Mr. B.A. YNE. Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the gentleman from Ten- nessee has madethisstatement. Iknewverywellthat myfriendfrom 

Tennessee would not misrepresent anybody on this floor or :mywhere 

else, and when he stated that he had a conversation with every mem- ber of the committee upon this subject, I knew that the statement was made in error and in the heat of debate and discussion, for he had not 

had any conversation with me npon the subject. 

Mr. THOMAS. Nor did he have any with me. Mr. YOUNG. Nor did I say that I had. 

Mr. WILLIS. I hope the House will indulge me for a very few 

moments, for th~ reason that a number of gentlemen have called my 

attention to the fact that the language I made use of on yesterday, in 

response to the gentleman from Jfennessee,-might be susceptible of a harsh construction, which I did not intend to give to it. If it be neces- sary, therefore, I wish now to disclaim in any degree the slightest intention. of using any discourteous . or offensive language toward the 

gentleman from Teiplessee. . · And I may be· permitted, Mr. Speaker, in a single moment, in con- nection with the subject of the improvement of that harbor (Memphis) 

to say, that bad it not been for tny efforts in the last Congress, on the 

conference committee, the appropriation of $200,000, to which. refer- ence was made in the· debate on yesterday, would not have been granted. 

This, I believe, is admitted on all hands. [Cries of ' ' Regular order ! ''] 

Mr. YOUNG. I hope I will be permitted-a single word further. I . have now but a last word to say in connection with this subject. I ex- pected this disclaimer from the gentleman froni KE-ntucky. I could 

not believe that it was his intention to l'eflect injuriously upon me in 

what he. said or I should perhaps have said more in reply, but I am glad I remembered that the grandest of all victories are won by charity 

and forbearance, and I felt assured, too, that time :md reflection would 

surely bring regret to the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLis] as they have to me. 

BRIDGE ACROSS THE SAINT CROIX RIVE~. 

Mr. WASHBURN. Mr. Speaker, I ask u.mJ.nimous con8ent to take 

from the Speaker's table a. House bill that has been retm'ned with cer- tain amendments of the Sen3te for the purpose of moving non-concur- rence in the Senate amendments with -a view to getting a. conference 

committee appointed. . . '+be SPEAKER pro empor~. The Clerk will report the title of the 

bill. 

The Clerk r~d as follows: 

A bill (H . R. 3258) to authorize the conslruction of n. bridge across the Saint 

Croix River at the most accessible point between Stillwater and Taylor's Falls, 

Minn. L"i THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES, January 22, 1885. 

.Resolve4, That this bill pass with amendments. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the gentleman desire the amendmenta to be read? · 

Mr. WASHBURN. I do not. I move· that the House non-concur in the amendments of the Senate in order to ask for a oonference upon 

the disagreeing vote8 of the two Houses. · The motion was agreed to. . The SPEAKER pro temp01·e announced as the conferees on the part of · the House Mr. WASHBURN, Mr. SEDIOUR, and Mr. PETERS. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

By unanimous ConSent, indefinite leave of absence was granted to Mr. 

LAcEY, on a<lcount of important business. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

Mr. WILLIS. I move that the morning hour for the call of com- mittees be dispensed wi tb. 

The motion was agreed to, two-thirds voting in favor thereof. 

. REPORT OF LIEUTENANT SCHWATKA.. 

Mr. ROGERS~ of New York. I rise to make a privileged report from 

the Committee on Printing. I am instructed by the Committee· on Printing to report back with the. recommendation that it be adopted 

the Senate concurrent resolution which I send to the desk. 

The concurrent resolution was read, as follows: 

Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concu.rl'ing), That the official 

report of Lieut. Frederick Sch watka, United States Army, of his military recon- naissance, be printed, and that 3,500additional copies be printed, of which 1,000 

copies shall be for the use of the Senate, 2,000 copies for the use of the House, and 500 copies for the use of the W a.r Department. 

The report of the committee was read, as follows: 

The Committee on Printing, to whom was l'eferred Senate resolution authorizing the printing of the official .report of Lieut. Frederick SchwJ\tka, United 

States Army, have duly considered the same, and recommend that the House do concur therein. 

The cost of printing the additional number of copies is estimated a.t $5,439. 

The resolution was concurred in. 

Mr. ROGERS, of New York, moved to reconsider thevotejusttaken; and also moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

ORDER O.F BUSINESS. 

Mr. WILLIS. I move that the House, at the close of its session today, take a recess until10 o'clock on Monday mopring. · _Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I call for a divisioB on that motion. 

Ur. TOWNSHEND. I wish to inquire if the gentleman from Kentucky means that· the House on Monday shall adjourn at 12 o'clock. 

The House divided; and there were-ayes 135. 

Before the ne!lative vote was counted, · l\Ir. TOWNSHEND said: I rise to make a. parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I want to know if the gentleman from Kentucky [1\Ir. WILLIS] bas stated his in~ntion was that the House should 

adjourn before 12. o'clock on Monday. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair did.not bear any such state- .ment by the gentleman from Kentucky. · The negative vote was counted; and there were-noes 20. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. On this question the ayes are 135 and 

the noes are 20. 

Mr. WIDTE, of Kentucky, and"'l\Ir. TOWNSHEND. No quorum. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore, The point~ made that a quorum has 

not ·voted. The Chair will appoint tellers. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. If the understanding is that the House shall 

adjourn before 12 o'cloc~ on Monday; I shall not insist on the point as to a quorum. . Mr. WILLIS. I call for the regular order. 

Mr. REED, of Mrune. I ask the Chair to state the question . Tpe SPEAKER pl'o tempore. The question is on tlie motion of the 

gentleman from Kentucky [Ur. WILLIS], that at theelose of this day's 

session the House shall take a. .recess until10 o'clock on Monday morn- ing. · 

Mr. REED, of l\Iaine. I rise to make a parliamentary mquiry. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

1\Ir. REED, of Maine. If the House determines that question in the 

affirmative, and tb n at the close o.f this session should adjourn, would 

it not adjourn until12 o'clock on Monday? · · .The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thinks it would. 

l\Ir. REED, of Maine. Then I do not seewbat good can result from 

this motion, even if it be decided in the affirmative. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The House can not be stripped of its 

power to adjourn when it plea~ s. 

1\Ir.WHITE, ofKentucky. I desjretomakeapa.rliamentaryinquiry. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

lli. WHITE, of Kentucky. If the House should take a recess until 

Monday at 10 o'clock, would it not then be in the power of a majo_rity . to extend the day of Saturday through Monday? . 

Tho. SPEAKER pro tempore. If the motion should prevail and a re- cess should be taken at the end o.f this day's proceedings un~ Monday 

at 10 o'clock, it would still be in the power of the House to adjourn at 

ariy time it pleased between 10 and 12 o'clock on Monday. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I desire to make a parliamentaty inquil'y. . The SPEAKER pro iR1nRore. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. HOLMAN. If the House should adopt this order and take a recess could the Honse on l\Ionday proceed without adjournment to take 

up the Post-Office appropriation bill? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. . The Chair would say ft could not. 

l\Ir. REED, of l\Iaine. I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. · The gentleman will state it. 

lli. REED, of Maine. I inquire. what is the effect of this motion if 

carried? It seems to me that the result, if it bas any, is this, that 

when we adjourn we shall take a recess. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not so understand the 

motion. The Chair has endeavored to state the question to the House 

and will state it again. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS} moves that at the close of this day's proceedings instead of adjourning 

the House shall take a recess until10 o'clock on l\1onday . Mr. REED, of Maine. I make a point of order on that motion. 

:Mr. W;rLLIS. I withiD-aw the motion, and now move that at 6 

o'clock this day the House shall take a recess until10 o'clock on Monday morning. . Mr. WHITE, of Kentu<!ky. I renew my point of order. 

The SPEAKER pro ternpore. What is the gentleman's point of order? 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I think the Chair misunderstood me. What I meant to ask .tbe Chair is this: If we take a recess until10 

o'clock on Monday, .and when we meet at 10 o'clock we should debate 

until two minutes past 12 o'clock and then adjourn, would not the adjournment be until Tuesday, so that there would be no Mo.nday as a legislative day ? 

·The SPEAKER pro telnpore. The Chair hardly thinks the question 

of the g_entleman from Kentucky needs'an answer. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I wish to ask the Chair whether this question 

is not debatable. 

Mr. WILLIS. I believe !have got the floor. 

The SPEAKER pro te1npore. The question is not subject to debate. 

The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr._ WILLIS] has made a motion, 

which the Chair has submitted to the House; and, after having sub-
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1393 

mitted it, the Chair is now engaged in answering parliamentary inquiries. 

M1-. TOWNSHEND. And this is not debafuble ? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The motion is not debatable. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. The motion for a recess, if the Chair plea.se, 

mu t be debatable. · The S,PEAKER pro tempore. The Chaii differs :from the gentleman 

from Maine. 

Mr. REED, of 1\Iaine. Allow me to suggest to the Chair what. th~ 

state of facts is. We are now dividing on the motion of the gentleman 

from Kentucky, that at the close of this day's proceedings the House 

hall take a recess. The gentleman has withdrawn that motion. 

The SPEAKER pro ternpore. The Chair is aware of that. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. The gentleman ;has now submitted a new 

motion. · The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. The Chair agrees. _ :Mr. REED, of Maine. · And the Chn.ir decides that the motion of the 

gentleman from Kentucky is not debatable. ·Mr. PARKER. I move to amend themption ofthegentleman from 

Kentucky, so that the House shall take a recess untilll o'clock instead 

of 10 o'clock on Monday. . . The .SPEAKER pro'tempore. The gentleman from Kentucky moves that the House at ·6 o'clock this afternoon shall take a recess 1\Dtil 

10 o'clock on Monday, to which the gentleman from New York [Mr. 

PARKER] mo>es as an amendment to fix 11 o'clock as the hourto 

which the recess shall be taken.. The question is first on the amendment submitted by the gentleman from New York. 

The amendment was not agreed to. · · The SPEAKER pro· tempore. The question recurs on the motion of 

the gentleman from Kentucky. · ·The question being taken, the Speaker pro tempore stated in the judgment of the Chair the ayes had it. · Mr. TOWNSHEND. I call for a vote. 

The House divided; and.there were-ayes 132, noes 15. 

Mr. WIDTE, of Kentucky. No quorum. 

Tellers were ordered; '3Ild Mr. BRECKillo"RIDGE and l'tlr. WmTE of 

Kentuck-y wel'e appointed. 

The HQuseagaindivided; and the tell~rs reported-ayes 158, noes6. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. No quorum. . • The SPEAKER pro tempore. A quorum is found; t~e ayes ha~e it, 

and the motion is agreed to. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. I call for the yeas and nays. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The call is too late. It wa.s not made 

until after the decision of the Chair was announced. 

1\Ir. HOLl\IAN. Mr. Speaker, I submit that the call for the yeas 

and nays was made instantly. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thiriks differently; for the 

Chair waited very deliberately for the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. . TowxsHEND] to make the demand, and it was not made until after the 

decision of the Chair was· announced. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. MT. Speaker, it is in order now to call 

for the yeas and nays, is it not? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is not. 

Mr. WILLIS. :Mr. Speaker, I move that the House now resolve 

itself into the Committee of the Whole House on .the state of the Union. 

The SPEAK·ER pro tempore. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. 

WILLIS] moves that the House now resolve itself into the Committee 

of the Whole. 

M1·. REED, of Maine. I rise .to a point of order. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. 'l'he Chair will recognize the gentlemali as soon as the Chair has stated the motion· of the gentleman from 

Kentucky [Mr .. ·WILLIS]. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. But, 1\Ir. Speaker, I rose to a point of order 

before that motion. . The SPEAKER pro tempore. The motion of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] is that the House now resolve itself into the Committee of;the Whole House on the state of the Union. · Now, the Chair 

recognizes the gentleman fFom Maine [Mr. REED]. . Mr. REED, of :Maine. But, J4r. Speaker, I do not rise to a point of 

order regarding this. motion, but to a point preceding the motion. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state his point of 

order. 

Mr. REED, of Maine: My point of order is that the gentleman from 

illinois [Mr. Tow~SHEND] called for the yeas and nays immediately 

upon the Chair's announcement of the vote, and that that was the only 

time when he could have called for the yeas and nays. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not see the point of 

order. The Chair states that when the report was handed up from the 

tellers the Chair announced the vote and waited for a call for the yeas 

and nays to be made. No call having been made, the Chair announced 

the result, after which the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. TOWNSHEND] 

called for the yeas and nays. 

Mr. REED, of :Maine. Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of .Some importance, and I desire to be· heard a little further npon it.. After the 

announcement of the vote by tellers it is in order, I believe, to call for 

the yeas and nays. 

XVI-88 

The SPEAKER pro te ,~ore. The Chair admits it. 

Mt. REED, of Maine. And it is not in order until after the announce- .ment. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair admits it. ~1r. ~EED, of Maine. And immediately after the announcement 

by the Chair the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. TOWNSHEND] called for 

the yeas and nays. · The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from illinois [Mr. ToWNs~~D] did not call for the yeas and nays immediately. He--

Mr .. REED, of Maj.ne. He could not have :Q:tade the call tmtil after 

the announcement by the Chair. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Whenever the gentleman from Maine 

[Mr. ·REED] desires it, the Chair will state what occurred. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. Precisely. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair has stated; and now restates, 

that when the vote was handed up from the tellers the report showed 158 

votes in the affirmative and 6 in the negative; whereupon thegentle.rnan 

from Illinois· [Mr. Tow:r,.SHEND] made the point that no q.uorum had ·voted. The Chair replied that ~ quorum had been found and had yo ted; 

and then the Chair waited for a call to be made for the yeas and nays, 

if any gentleman desired them-waited what the Chair thought was a full and reasonable time. Then, no demand being made for the yeas 

and nays, the Chair announced that the ayes had it, and that the mo- tion had prevailed; after which the gentlemanfi·om Illinois [Mr. TowY- SHE~D] called: for the yeas and nays; which the.Chair thought, and 

then decided and still decides, was too late and not within the rule. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. Mr. Speaker, I didnot.underst:mdsuch to be 

the state of facts. 

A l'tlEl'tiBER. Such were the facts. ~everal.l'tlEMB~RS. Regular order. . The SPEAKER pro te-r~pore. The regular order is called for; and it 

is the motion of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] that this 

House do now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole HQuse on the 

state of the Union. · Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. 111r. Speaker, pending that motion I move to reconsider the vote by which the House resolved .to take a re- cess at 6 o'clock this evening until10 o'clock Monday morning. 

Mr: WILLIS. I believe I have the floor, Mr. Speaker. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The motion-of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] to Teconsider i~ in order. 

Mr. WILLIS. Then I move to.lay it on the table. ~1r. WHITE, of Kentucky. Upon that motion I call for the yeas and 

nays. · The question was taken by a rising vote on ordering the yeas and 

nays, and the motion was not agreed to-onJy twelve members having risen. · ' 

1\Ir. WffiTE, ol Kentucky. . I call for tellers. 

lJ'he SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Kentucky [1\Ir. 

WHITE] asks for tellers upon his demand for the yeas and nays. Gentlemen in favor of ordering tellers will rise and remain standing until 

counted. [After a pause.] Ten gentlemen have risen:_not a sufficient 

number; so tellers are refused and the yeas and nays are refused. 

The question was taken on the motion of Mr. WILLIS to lay on the 

table the motion of Mr. WHITE to reconsider the vote by. w_hich the 

House had ordered a recess to begin at 6 o'clock this evening. 

The motion to lay on the table was agreed to. 

RIVER AND HARBOR APPROPRIATIO~ BILL. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question now recurs on the motion 

of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] thatthe House resolve 

itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. 

The motion was agreed to. . . The House accordingly resolved itself into the Committee of the 

Whole on the state of th~ Union (1\Ir. HAID.IOND in the chair), a1,1d 

resumed the consideration of the _bill (H. R. 8130) making appropriations for the construction, l'epair, and preservation of certain public 

works on rivers and harbors, and for other purposes. . 1\Ir. PAYNE. I move to amend by inserting after the pen~ pamgraph of the bill the amendment which I send r.o me ·desk. 

The Clerk read as follows.: . 

After line HO, insert: . · "Improving harbor at Pultneyville, N. Y.: For dredging channel and con- structing pile pier, $7,500." 

1\Ir. P A YoRE. 1tir. Chairman, I do not ~ffer this. amendment for the 

purpose of delaying the Committee of the Whole in the consideration 

of the bill. I have no sympathy with any feeling of that kind which 

may exist upon this floor._ I offer the amendment in the interest of an improvement which I think ought to be made. This harbor at Pultneyville, upon Lake Ont."l.rio, is a hal'bor where the Government irf1870 

entered upon the task of improvement. Prior to that time and before 

the Government had spent a dolJar upon the work private parties had 

expended more than $30,000 for the improvement of this harbor. This 

showed the feeling of these individuals as to the necessity of this improvement. · Since the Government entered upon this work it has spent $71,000 

for the purpose of getting a 10-foot channel. The. last appropriation 

• 
• 

1394 CONGRESSIO-NAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

used was in the year 1882. A.ch:mnel often • feet was obtained. As a no recommendation made by the engineer, but the gentleman from 

result the commerce of this harbor started up, and from nothing in-· Pennsylvania (Mr. EVERHART] interested in that harbor asked a sur- creased to such an extent that the revenues from customs during that vey be made for the purpose of ascertaining whether it would be neces- yearweresomething like $1,300, as appears by the official report. Since sary to further itnprove it. On page 816 of the engineer's report it 

that time, and because the improvement so far as made did :pot com- states: . _ · -pletely ·remedy the difficUlty, sand has drift.ed into the channel, which No work has been performed. during the past fiscal year . . It is ~~ecommended 

now is not more than four feet in depth. no further appropriation be made for this improvement, and we have made 

fi • · l none. The ice-harbor at Marcus Hook, which is very extensive and in a very The Committee on Rivers and Harbors re used an appropnation ast eaective condition, is but two or three miles below, and answe1·s all purpo es year because the engineer had made no survey and no appropriation that 11o harbor at Chester could demand. 

was recommended. This year a survey has been made, and the engi- But the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. EVERHART] asked fur- neer says that if this pile pier be built and the channel be dredged he · -ther examination should be·maqe to ascertain whether the facts in favor 

believes that ten feet of water can be obtained. He recommends an of continuing the Government improvements on the harbor at Chester, 

appropriation of $30,000. I have graded my amendment upon the pre- Pa. could not be strengthened. . 

cise percentage which the committee say they allow. The amendment Mr. REED, of M:aine. It is"not a place where improvements have 

proposes to expend only 25 per cent. of the $30,000 recomniended. I b · d to db this •tte ? submit that this amendment ought to prevail and that this work on een gomg on an s ppe Y comnn e · 

which the Government has expended $71,000 and private individn~ls ~~ ~~kL!d ~~~s: $;30,000 ought ultimately to be completed and the harbor made naviga- ble for vessels drawing ten feet of water. _ Improving harbor at Baltimore, "Md.: Continuin~ improvement, $75,000 .. 

ltlr. WILLIS. This is not in the estimates at all. The wholenum- 1\-lr. FINDLAY. I move, in line 173, to strike out 75,000 and inher of steamers entering this harbor during the last year was 2; sail- sert $200,000. 

ing vessels, 17; the total reve~ues, $453; and the· total t.onnage 690 Now, Mr. Ch&i::.'lnan, in 1853 we had a depth in ·the ship-channel 

tons. It is a harbor of no commercial importance whatever. ·I ask leading to _Baltimore of seventeen feet at mean low water, and by the 

for a vote on the a1p.endment: ' · ' unite!l effort of the United States, the State of Maryland, and the mu- Mr. P A. YN E. In order to reply to the statement just made, I move nici 1 :.J au tb.orities of the city of Baltimore we have increased that depth 

to amend the amendment by striking out the last word. I Wish tore- to twenty-seven feet. The depth is now sufficient for all practical purpeat that this work is recommended by the engineer. An appropria- poses, but there are -three channels leading into' the harbor ofBaltition of$30,000isrecommended. The reason the commerce at this har- more from 1he deep wate: of the Chesapeake Bay. There is the chanbor has been reduced so that the revenues are les.'l than 500 annu.~lly nel (I take them in the reverse order) ti·omFortMcHenry to Fort Caris because sand has drift.ed into the harbor, and it :qeeds redredging. roll. Then there is tho channel called the Brewerton Channel. Then 

A.n expenditure of only $30,000 for this _pile pier is necessary to com- there is the cut-off which leads to Craighill Channel; and taking the 

plete the work that the Government has cnterecl upon. _ average width of all these channels which are outside of the harbor of 

Mr. WILLIS. The gentleman should understand that the Qhief of Baltimore proper, we have only about two hundred and seventeen feet 

Emrineers has not recommended this work; it is the local engineer. in width. We want -fonr hundred feet in width and we can not get 

1tfr. PAYNE. The Chief Engineer does reco~mend it; the recom- along without it for obvious reasons. The big steamers whicb come 'lll.endation appears at page 324 of the report of the Secretary of War. into that port, some four hundred and forty feet in length, are being 

I withdraw the pro forma amendment. continually stranded upon the sides of these channels, ancl it takes from 

Tl1e question being taken on the amendment of Mr. PAYl-.TE, it :was 2,000 to. 3,000 in lighterage, towage, coop~rage, and what not to get 

not agreed to; there be~-ayes 38, noes 83. · them off. The bay maft annthe seacoast craft that come into that 

The Clerk read as follows: cb3.nnel, and l}.a.ving the right of way against these steamers, crowd 

Improving ha.rbo~ at Raritan Bay, New Jersey: Co11tinuing impro\·ement, them onto the banks, and this is the result. 

$15,000. · We have the testimony of the 3ouents of the board of underwriters 

Mr. KEAN. I mo'Ve the followh1g amendm~nt: and of the pilots of that port. 'The Chief of Engineers says he can profitably expend in 1886" 200,000, and that $200,000 is only in con- Improving harbor at Raritan Bay: For completion of same, $45,ooo: tinuance of the existing project and is absolutely necessary to make it 

:M:r. Chairman, I shall detain the Committee of the Whole only a mo- . effectual. We have been allowed $75,000 by the committee, but it is 

ment for the purpose of calling attention to the vast commer:ce passing not enough, for it makes no difference how deep you make the chanthrough· "this cha.fifiel. The· work is almost completed, and with its nel, unless yon give it the requisite width it is not stifficient. 

completion a depth of twenty-one feet of water will be maintained for I do not propose to go into the general· line of argument why we the whole dista1;1ce. The whole aQlount already expended for this im- should have this. I shall not allude to the fact that the city of Baltiprovenient has been only $120,000. The sum named in my amendment more has a pepulation of 400,000 souls, or to th~ other fact that two 

is required to complete the work. The Chief of Engineers and the en- great trunk lines which ~ead into the West terminate at-that point, and 

gineer in charge not only reco_mmend but earnestly recommend the that we have provided the amplest terminal facilities for the accomappropriation. · · niodation of the Western country as well as of the foreign commerce As stated in the engineer's Teport- that comes into that great port of ~altimore. 

The annual tonnage of the channel for actual freight is estimated at 2,000,000 I will not allude to the further fact, sir, we have helped ourselves in 

tons; it is carried in about5,000vesselsa.ndst~amers, and has an estimated value this matter. There has been appropriated about 1,800,000 by the 

of $10,000,000 annually. General Government for the improvement of the ship-channels-leading 

'rhis tonnage is increasing largely, and if the appropriation now. asked into the harbor, and the State of Maryland and the city of Baltimore 

be made the work will be ·completed. This is not an experiment. With have come up and appropriated one-third of that amount for the same 

this additional appropriation the work will be a success. I ask for a improvement.. • vote. I desire to say further that the city of Baltimore, of all the cities of 

The CHAIRMAN. The noes seem to have it. the Atlantic seacoast, has never received a dollar for the ill;lprovement 

Mr KEAN. I demand a division. of" her harbOr proper; all this money bas been ex-petlded for ship-chanThe committee divided; and there were-ayes 3-2, noes 64. nels leading into the harbor. The city has given $400,000 for tnat outer 

Mr. KEAN. No quorum has voted. "Bhip--channei. But for the improvement of the harbor itself-for the 

The CHAIRM:A.N. The point being made. that no quorum has voted, water way8 thst are in the harbor-we never received a single dollar 

the Cltm will appoint as tellers :Mr. WILLIS and Mr. KEAN. from the Government of the United States-. · Mr. WILLIS. I hope the gentleman from New Jersey will not insist [Here the ~er fell.] on his, point oino quorum. . . Mr. TALBOTT was recognized, and yielded his time to l\Ir.FINDLA Y. 

Mr. KEAN. I withdraw the point. 1t'lr. FINDLAY. I am very much obliged to my colleague. 

So the amendment was disagreed to. I desire to say here that on a comparison with what has been done 

The clerk read as folio~: or with results that have been reached in the·other great cities on the 

Tile Secretary of War is hereby directed to report to the next c~ngress on the Atlantic seacoast we also hold a most favorable situation. The aver- expediency and desirability of continuing the Government improvements of the age approximate width of the channel leading into Boston Harbor is 

harbor at Chester, Pa.-., and the probable expense of repairing the piers now in 600 feet; the average width of i!he New York channel is 1,200 feet; 

service there. · that of Philadelphia 470 feet; while the average width, as I ha.\e 

Mr. REED, of Maine. I should like to have some explanation in shown, t>f the channel of Baltimore is only 217 feet. And although 

regaM to that paragraph. - ·. . the depth of water in the Baltimore Harbor compares most favorably 

Mr. EVERHART. Do you want to defeat the paragraph~ 'With the depths of channels leading into other harbors, yet in point of 

Mr. REED, of l\laine. No, sir. width we do not show so well. For instance, Boston Harbor I think 

1tir. EVERHART. All right, then. has -a depth at high water of 31f feet; New York has a depth of 27 · Mr. REAGA~. Wha-t is the question.before the <COmmittee? feet at high water; Philadelphia has 26 feet at high water; while BaltiThe CHAIR~fAN. Debate is not in order unless soine amendment more has 27 feet at mean low water, with 18 inches more as the result 

be pending. of the average rise ofthe tide,. which is increased also by the spring tide. 

Mr. WILLIS. I will say to the gentleman from Maine that there is As I have said, Mr. Chairman, it is not del!_th, therefore, th..'lt we 
1885. .OONGRESSIONAL RECORD--HOUSE. .1395 

"' .want, but width, for without width depth is good-for nothing to meet 

the demands of the commerce of such a city as Baltimore. 

I reserve the remainder of the time allotted to me, in order to pear 

what may be said i.p. opposition to this amendment by the' other side. 

1\'Ir. BRECKINRIDGE. Mr. Chairman, I will call the attention of 

the committee briefly to a few points which influenced the minds of the 

Committee on.Rivers and Harbors in their consideration of the improvement connected with the Baltimore Harbor. . · The depth of the channel is now 27 feet. It is correctly stated that 

there is no trouble ab()ut the depth of that channel. The whole ques· 

tion is one of width. This channel averages 250 feet in width in one part, the same in another, 225 feet in another, and for a distance of only a half a mile is it narrowed to 160 feet. 

They have on hand enough for this year and for the next fL<>cal year, 

being in round numbers $4.00,000. 

1\fr.FINDLAY. Ob7 no! 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. Yes; it so appears in this Book of EstimateS. 

Mr. FINDLAY. They only have $320,000. 

1\Ir. BRECKINRIDGE. Three hundred and twenty thousand dol· 

Jars plus $751000 is $395,000, Of course I spoke in round numbers 

when I said $400,000. 

Mr. FINDLAY. But that is for 1886. 

1\lr. BRECKINRIDGE. I say for this year and the coming year: 

1\Ir. ~INDLAY. I begpardon; I did no~understand thatto beyour 

statement. · 1\Ir. BR_ECKINRIDGE. · Now it is estimated by the enginee~ that 

they can spend profitably $200,000 in this year. They have got, as I 

have said, about $400,000 in two years, and in this respect this harbor 

of Baltimore is in a far better condition than most of her sister cities, 

which have neither width nor depth, and as it only lacks after this is 

given $125,000 of what will secure the full completion of the harbor or the completion of the project originally embarked upon, they certainly . can not be in a very great state of suffering such as would warrant this 

increase in the expenditure. 

The committee thought, in considering the urgent needs of the com· mercia! interests of this country as involved in this question, that by 

allowing to Baltimore the sum specified in this bill they had given more thm the average allowance of appropriations for works of a sim• 

ilar character generally throughout the country: · Mr. FINDLAY. Mr. Chairman, I do not.appreciate altogether the 

force of that argument. It seems to me that those questions are to be 

decided not by what has .been given to one place or by what has been 

refused in another7 bu.t that each place must be permitted to stand 

upon its own individual merits. . Now, $1,250, 00~ was the sum of the original estimate for the completion of this channel iiilprovetnent ifi. Baltimore. Two hundred thou· 

sand dollars yet remain unexpended, or unappropriated, of that original 

estimate. It is abso~utely necessary to complete this great project, so the engineer says, and not merely the Chief Engineer in his report, who 

says that that amount can be profitably expended in 18867 but the local 

engineer, Colonel Craighill, says there is a necessity for it. It is true, 

taking the unexpended balance coming over from 1883 and ad~g it 

to the sum appropriated by the last. river and harbor bill, that we· have 

$3~0,000 which is 8ubject to expenditure during the fiscal year 1885. 

But this appropriation is not for 1885. This appropriation is fer 1886; 

and the Chief of Engineers says that $200,000 can be profitably expended 

during that year. · 

) I wish now to call the attention af this committee and the attention 

of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors to the fact that during the year 

1883-'84-the fiscal year 1884-we expended $240,000 on that work. 

And I w.ould like to know whether we would not be able to expend profit. 

ably the same amount for the year 1886, when the engineer says ~bat 

$200,000 at least can be profitably expended. In the year terminating 

the 1st July,_ 1884,. 'I:Ve expended $240,000. Now, if we have $320,-000 

to expend for the fiscal year 1885, and if we deduct the $240,000 from 

the,$320, 000, there are left $80,000 to go over as an unexpended bala.nce; 

that, added to the $75,000 the committee propose to give us, would be 

$155,000 for the. year 1886. But, sir, we expended $240,000 for the year 

1884, and the inference is we could expend at least that amount for th"e 

year, 1886. • The question being taken on agreeing to U r. FINDLAY7

S amendment, 

there were-ayes 40, noes 39. . 

So (further count not being called for) the amendment was agreed to. 

Mr. WILLIS. I of course reserve the right to have a vote on this 

in the House. -

The Clerk read the following paragraph: 

Improving approach to Norfolk Harbor and the United States navy-yard at . Norfolk, Va..: Continuing improvement, by widening tlre channel of Elizabetlt 

River to the port-warden's line on the eastern side, between Lambert's Point 

Light and Fort Norfolk, copnnencing at Lambert's Point Light, $50,000. 

Mr. GEORGE D. WI~E. I offer the amendment which! send to the 

desk. 

,The -Clerk read as follows: 

Strike out from the paragraph just read the following: "By widening the 

,channel of Elizabeth River to the port-ward~n's line on the eastern side. be- tween Lambert's Point Light. and Fort Norfolk, commencing at Lambert's Point 

Light," and ·inserting at the end of the paragraph the following: " To be ex· pended under the direction of the Engineer DepaJ:tment.:• _ 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. That is simply to leav~ the expenditure ~f 

the ··appropriation at the discretion of the Engineer Department? 

Mr. GEORGE D. WISE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. There is no objection to that amendment. 

Mr. GIBSON. Does it add to the amount in the bill? 

Mr. GEORGE D. WISE. Not at all. 

The amendment was agreed to. 

The Clerk read the following paragraph: . 

Improving harbor at Charleston, South Carolina.: Continuing improvement, $150,000. . 

Mr. DIBBLE. · I offer the amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 187, strike out" $150,000" and inser~ "$300,000." 

Mr. DIBBLE. Charleston is one of the m<>st important Cotton ports on the South Atlantic. It is the largest city on the South Atlantic 

and Gulf coasts south of Richmond, except the city of New Orleans, and 

work has been going on at that point which is not local but is national 

in its importance. By reason of its western connections, Charleston is 

in communication with Chicago, Cincinnati, Louisville, and Saint Louis 

for theW estern trade to the Southeast A tlaRtic States. The chambers 

of commerce of the great city of New York and of our sister city of 

Baltimore, ·which has been so fortunately recognized by this H<?use a , few moments ago, the Chamber of Commerce of Louisville, Ky., and the 

Board of Trade and Transportation of Cincinnati, Ohio, have memorial· 

ized Congress from time to time to foster and further this improvement as a matter of interest to all those sections of the country. · 

Now, w bat is the condition of that work? According to the original 

project of General Gilltnore, one of the best of the Army engineers, that 

work was to be completed in four years at an annual expenditure of 

$450,000; and General Gillmore said to the committee that with that 

amount to expend annually he could construct the works,' could secure the works, and could complete the improvement. It has been seven ·years since that project was submitted. A little over. a million of dol· 

13:r.'l out of the $1,800,000, a little more th~ n h1f, has been expended. 

The engineers ask for $600,000 for the year commencing next July. 

They have now only the means to carry this work up to the end of ~he 

present fiscal year. They want $600,000 fW' the next ye.a.r. 

The committee have redtice(J us under an arbitrary scale to 25 per 

cent. ofthe estimate. I submit;Mr. Chairman, thattheizpportanceof 

this work is exceptional; that it stands as favorably aS any project 

which bas been submitted to this Congress, and it ought to be put un':. 

der the most favorable terms. In this amendment I have only asked 

for 50 per cent. of the amount the engineers estimated. I ask that the 

appropriation be raised from $150,000 to $300,$)00. 

There is this additional reason in regard to this improvement:. There was estimated in the original project of this work $102,000 for dredg· 

ing purposes. The_ time bas come when that dredging is necessary; 

and of this addition of$150,000 fully $100,000 will be nee~ed for that 

purpose. · · The works have to go on. _The results at that harbor7 as appears by 

the letter of General Gillmore which waspublisheq the other day in the RECO~D, show that the work is going to be a success. The people of 

Charleston have confidence in it. The shipmasters say it is going to 

give us deep water, and I ask this House that this be made one of 

those cases where the rule of 25 per cent. shall not be arbitrari.ly en· forced. · 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE and 1\Ir. HORR rose. Mr. BRECKINRlDGE. I yield to the gentleman from Michigan. 

Is he in· opposition to the ~menqment? 

Mr. HORR. !have but aword to say; butif.h·ecollectthis harbor 

aright it is the one about which we have had so much trouble on the 

Atlantic ~ast. Is not this the harbor where the Government, in 1862, 

sunk from. fifteen to twenty· ships loaded down? This is the same har· 

bor, is it not? · Mr. DIBBLE. It is the same harbor. 

1\Ir. HORR . . Can the gentleman tell us where those ships are? . Mr. DIBBLE. The ships that were sunk at that time have gone 

down in the quicksands at a point nea.r Pumpkin Hill Channel. But 

I will say to the gentleman from Michigan, in explanation, that the 

point where the jetties are located-which jetties have not sunk-has 

been found by borings made by the engineers to have a solid basis. The p~ce wher,e the ships were sunk. is five miles distant.from that point. · 1\Ir. ·HORR. My memory i3 very clear that the harbor of Charleston 

is one of the most doubtful improvements in this entire bill 7 and I think 

the Committee on Rivers and Harbors have been very liberal with it 

under all the circumstances of the -case; for7 if I understand the diffi.cul· 

ties there, it. is extremely doubtful, with the ,Present engineering and 

present plan, whether it is not a worse harbor to manage than even Gal· 

veston, and I do not wnnt to cast a slur on Galveston by any meaiLS. I 

think that the appropriations for Charleston ·Har1J9r up to this time have 

failed to secure the additional water which we have been told would be 

obtained. Am I mistaken about that? 

Mr. DIBBLE. The gentlema-n is mistaken about that, in this: the 

improvement is about three miles long, and the result so far of the im-
. 1396 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FE.BRU.ARY 7, 

provement from the incomplete works has been to develop· deep water 

about half that distance seaward. The other half bas not been developed at all. The movement <;>f deep water seaward is going on day by' 

day ,·and the report of the last examination shows that it has gone three 

hundred feet sea.w:ud since the previous examination. 

Mr. HORR. My memory is still the same. I think the committee 

have given to this harbor in this bill all that the circumstances and 

conditions of that harbor will warrant, and if I were to vote for anything with Teference to the harbor of Charleston, from the know ledge 

I have of it, my vote would be not to spend another dollar there until we know a. little better what we are getting in return for the money 

already expended. . ' . . · That is my idea about it; and I am very <tlear that it is a cQnclusion 

founded upon the repo:Fts of engineers and upon ascertained results up· to this time. I am sorry, but I say, conscientiously, that I think the 

money put into Charleston Harbor up to this time has not b~n profitably spent-that the improvement has not been a success. I appeal 

to the committee to state if I am not right, and if that is ·not the information tl;la.twe have upon thissub.ject. (Criesqf "Vote!"" Vote!"] 

1\Ir. THO f.AS. Mr. Chairman, Charleston was one of the harbors 

considered seriously by the committee, with reference·. to cutting off 

appropriations entirely, until a complete examinatipn of it· could be 

made by the harbor board provided for in this bill, and a r_eport, giving 

plans, specifications, and estimates for the final itnprovement of the 

harbor, could be ubmitted to Congress. But, as I said in my extended 

remarks the ~ther day, the commitWe concluded that poss_ibly the information they had received at the last session of Congress might not 

have been correct, and that possibly they were mistaken in their view 

of the condition ofthis harbor; and hence it was that a majority ofthe 

committee thought it better to allow to ~his harbor the percentage 

adopted by the committee in thiB bill generally, at the same time providing that it should be examined by this harbor board, and a complete r~port made on the plans and estimates for its llllprovement. I 

want to say, Mr. Chairman, that the work on Charleston Harbor has 

not been satisfactory to the committee, and from representations. made 

to the committee at the last session of Congress we have had little hope 

that the work under the present system will ever prove satiSfactory. 

Mr. DIBBLE. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out the last word. 

There is ali Charleston H¥bor :m outer bar, and actoss that bar there are three principal channels, the Beach Channel, the Swash Channel, 

opposite the center of tlie l1arbor, an~ the Pumpkin Hill Channel, five 

miles below." 

Mr. THOMAS. Will the gentleman yield for a question? 

Mr. DIBBLE. Yes. 

Mr. THOUAS. I wish to ask if it was not represented to the com- mittee by the gentleman himself at the last .session of Congress that the 

work done· there had_had "tthe effect of reducing the depth of water in 

the Pumpkin Hill Channel, which is the best channel, about eighteen 

incl1es? 

·!tfr. DIBBLE. Abw t ten ~nches. 

Mr. THOMAS. Anu is not that tlie best channel into the harbor-or was it not so represented by the gentlemap and his associates at the last 

session? • · l!Ir. DIBBLE. It is the main ship channel. It was in that channel 

:five miles below that the vessels were sunk to whlcn the gentleman 

from Michigan [Mr. HoRR] referred a while ag<J. Now the ·engineers, 

iB devising a plan for this ~mprovement, took the channel opposite the 

mouth of the harbor, the SwashChannel, which, with these jetties, has 

through it a depth of water equal to the average depth of the Pumpkin 

Hill Channel, the largest channel which Charleston Harbor has had. 

Of course the Pumpkin Hill Channel, as the engineers have already 

reported, will deteriomte iri proportion as the central channel improves. 

Now the central channel 1Jas improved to the stage where it is equal 

in depth to the Pumpkin Hill Channel. But we want money to eon- iinue the improvements, because one-half of the space between the two 

jetties now carries thirty feet of water at low water at places whe;re 

there was formerly only twelve feet, and the sand which has been car- ried seaward lias not formed _a, bar outside, but bas been dispersed; so that the removal of that sand to the depth of thirty (eet has ~ot injured 

the mouth beyond the jetties or built up a bar there. Within the last 

twelvemonths there have been taken, for the purpose of observing the 

effects of the work that bas been done, 40,000 soundings, embracing an area of twenty-five square miles. That is the source from which 

we get these results. There has been a diver sent d_own to examine .the -stability of the jetties, and they have been reported by the engineer as in a satislhctory condition. · 

Now all I :}Skis an appropriation which will enable the Government 

to carry out this project. General Gillmore says: . 

I wish to reaffirm my confidence in the ability of these works when completed to maintain a deep navigable channel across the bar. I believeadepthofthirty 

feet to be easily obtainable. 

Now we do not expect to keep Pumpkin Hill Channel open. We ex- pect to make the Swash Channel the channel. Pumpkin·Hill is shoaling from day to day. If it continues to shoal and the work upon the 

other channel is left in this incomplete condition, then it in a measure enls the port of Charleston. 

· :Mr. SMALLS. Mr. Chairman, I hope the amendment offered by my 

colleague will be adopted. The question has been asked, what became 

of the ships which were sunk in Charleston Harbor' in 1862. My colleague said they went down in the quicksand. . They did not go down 

in the "quicksand. I happened to be off that bar about that time. I 

had something to do around that bar. The main body of those ships were knocked to pieces by the waves and were drifted ashore upon 

Morris Island, :folly Isl:md, and the rest of the islands along that coast. 

The bottoms of the ships and the stone in them .may have gone down, 

God knows where. 

This channel is now being dug close on to Sullivan's Island beach; 

and I have been informed by men of experience-such men as General 

Q. A. Gillmore, who is as high in authority as any man in this country- · 

that the channel over ~is bar can be !mproved to a depth of thirty feet. 

I believe if we give the necessary amount this can be done. I ask the 

House to give the amount asked for in order that a fair trial may be had. 

The trouble isthatfrom timeto time there have been nppropri~tions 

of amounts which we.re .too small, so that just when the work had 

reached a point where it ought to be prosecuted without delay the 

appropriations would be exhausted, and the work would be stopped for 

five or six months till more money could be obtained. In consequence 

of this method of making insuffici~nt appropriations the channel after 

work. has been done bas filled up again so that the work has had to be 

done over again. This work at Charleston bar has been from time to 

time commenced anew in this way; 

Mr. CUTCHEON. I would like to know what amount -of money 

would give this thirty feet of .water that the _gentleman speaks of and 

keep it there. · 

· 1t1r. SMALLS. I refer the gentleman to the r-eport of that distillguished officer General Gillmore. If he will read that report, he will 

find. just what is needed. [Laughter.J 

I hope gentlemen, on this side of' the House at least, will give us a chanc~. If we do not show some improvement, next year cut us off 

and give us nothing. 

A MEl\mER. Then what will become of the money that we now appropriate?· 

Mr. SliALLS. We will take care of that as swn as you appropriate 

it. '.fhere is no trouble about spending the money. (Laughter.] The 

only trouble in this House is to get itr-to. prevent gentlemen on the 

other side from "objecting." Mr. Chairman, I hope the amendment 

will be adopted. . 

Mr. DIBBLE: Mr; Chairman, for the purpose merely of replying to 

a question which has been asked, I move to amend the amendment by 

striking out the last word. General Gillmore has stated that to make 

this improvement by jetties, partly submerged and partl_y high-water 

jetties~. would in his judgment cost $1,800,00.0. The board of engi- neers state that the expense for the project as submitted would be 

$1,800,000. If the jetties were all made high-water jetties, of which 

the project is capable with the same foundation, the cost would probably be $3,000,000. · 

Mr. HORR. How much has already been expended there? 

!t1r. DIBBLE. About $1,000,.000. 

Mr; HORR. Since when? Since the improvement comm~Iiced? 

1\Ir. DIBBLE. In the sev~ years t~at the work has been goipg on. I withdraw the formal amendru.ent. 

The -question being taken on the amendment of Mr. DIBBLE, there ·were-ayes 62, noes 53. 

Mr. THOMAS and others . . No quorum. 

Tellers were ordered; and Mr. DIBBLE and Ur. WILLIS were appointed. 

The committee again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 53, noes 73. .· . 

The CHAIRMAN. Does the 7entleman from South Carolina [Mr. 

DIBBLE] withdraw the point of' no quorum?" . Mr. DIBBLE. I did not make the point. 

Mr. 'l'HOl\1.4-S. I made t.he point; ·I withdraw it. 

Mr. HEPBURN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. BAYNE] 

made the point. · 

1t1r. THOUAS. I also made it. 

Mr. A....~DERSON. At any rate the point is not insisted upon. 

The CHAIRMAN. The point of ''no quorum'' not being insisted 

upon, the amendment is rejected. . The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving harbor at Georgetown, S.C.: To complete improvement.:$2,000. 

Mr. BELFORD. I move to insert after the clause just read the 

amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as f9llows: 

· That the Secreta~y of War· is hereby authorized and directed to appoint a com- mission, to consist of three, two of whom shall be members of the Engineer Corps of the Army, and tl1e third one a civilian, to make surveys for the con- struction of reservoil·s on the l'"oudre, Platte, and Saint Vrain for the storage of 

surplus water to be used in irrigating and reclaiming the public lands located 

in the State of Colorado, and to report the probable cost of the construction of 

such work; and the sum of ~,000 is hereby appropriated to defray the e~· 

penses of such commission. . . 

·Mr. WILLIS. I make the point of order--

Mr. BELFORD. · Oh, Mr. Chairman, I hope not 

' 
1885 .. CONGRESSIONAL~ RECOR])-_ HOUSE. 1397 

Mr. WILLIS. I regret I am compelled to make it, but I do so in the 

interest of public busine...~. · Mr. BELFORD. All right;- but I _propose to be heard on that point 

of order. 

:Mr. WILLIS. It has been acted on. Mr. BELFORD. No, it has not-been acted on at all; it was with: 

drawn by consent. I say that the Ch~, when he comes to understand 

this question as I desire to present it, will correct his former ruling on this subject; and I am going to demonstrate it by the character of this 

bill; and that is the question on which I desire the Chair to hear me. The CHAIR~:!A.J..~. The Chair is ready to hear the gentleman from 

Colorado. ~Ir. BELFORD. Very well. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is a proposition to construct reservoirs to preserve the water in the Western riv- ers in order to reclaim the puplic land. That is the subjeCt-matter. 

Will the gentleman from Kentuckjr tell me if I offer an amendment to 

widen the cbannel of the Ohio River at Saint Louis that it would be 

out of order? Would he have the eourage and the audacity-! hate to use that word because he is such an elegant gentleman-would he have 

the courage to stand up on the floor of this House and say that an amendment of that character was out of order? Suppose some gentle- man stood up in his place and o:ffered an amendment to this bill providing we should establish jetties in the Mississippi River in order to 

deeperrthe channel in the center of that stream, is there a gentleman 

;here who would stand up and say that that proposition was out of 

order? If a gentleman comes here and says we should appropriate so much money to deepen the channel of a river, who will say that is not 

in order? Suppose some gentleman comes here with a proposition to 

diminish the caving in of the banks of a stream, who will not say that 

is" not in order? Now, what is my proposition? It~ simply to pre- serve the surplus water of these. rivers in Colorado m ·order that we may reclaim over 700,000,000 acres of the public domain held by the 

Republic in trust for everybody. 

I wish to call the gentleman's attention-Brother WILLIS, will you 

please give me your attention. (Great laughter.] 

Mr. WILLIS. With pleasure, if the gentlem~ will help me to pass 

this bill. 

M.r; BELFORD. I call the attention of the Chair to page 38 of this 

bill, commencing with line 902. Oh !- it is in order for you fellows 

down South to have the water flow through your baskets, but it is not 

in order for us to get any pork in our pot out West. [Renewed laughter.] . I wish you to answer this question as chairman of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors. My proposition is to con5tmct reservo~ to save the surplus watedn Colorado. Nowwhat has the gentleman done? . He has ~n chairman of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors for two 

years. What did you report in t~e last bill and what do ;you report 

in this? "For continuing operations on the reservoirs at the headwaters of the Mississippi.River, $35,000." Did you raise the point of _order when you incorporated that into the body of your bill? What 

do you want these reservoirs for at the headwaters· of the Mississippi 

River except that it may run down to. the South? 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE rose. 

Mr. B~LFORD. Thegentlemanwillpardon me, but I have no time 

to yield. . 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Colorado is speaking by 

oonsEmt of the Chair, and the Chair is ready to rwe on the point of . order. 

Mr. BELFORD. I wish to present my point· before the Chair rules. 

The CHAIRMAN. TheChairwould be gladto have the gentlemari. doso. · . 

Mr. BELFORD. But I will hear my friend from Kentucky. 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. The gentlema11speaks of reservoirs. Have 

those he refers to any connection with navigation? . Mr. BELFORD. I do not know but we may get water enough there 

to navigate a vessel. [Laughter. J · Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. I have asked my friend a plain question. 

Mr. WILLIS. It is irrigation vs. navigation. 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. I ask the gentleman the plain question 

whether these reservoirs he refers to have anything to do with com- merce? · 

Mr. BELFORD. They have an important connection with commer~. 

You have got, as I said a moment ago, 700,000,000 acres of unoccupied 

public land west of the one hundredth meridian. Oh ! the gentlenian 

maysmile-hewill not smilewhen hegetsasoldaslam. [Laughter~] 

Now, what is commerce? It is nothing but the product of population. What is produced by human hands-what is produced by human 

brains-that i.s commerce. . The CHAIRMAN. The Chair hopes the gentleman will keep to the 

point of order. . . 

Mr. BELFORD. I have been trying to keep to it as close as I could. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair decides the point of order to be well 

taken; and rules the amendment out. 

Mr. BELFORD. Then I move to strike out the last word. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman'will:·prooooo. 

Mr. BELFORD. Now, Mr:· Chairman; · I am coming to another 

• 

. branch of this question. Here is my own State that contributes millions of dollars to spread out the purse of the national revenue. I com~ ' 

here and as~ you gentlemen to give us $500,000 to improve our streams, . to reclaim our deserts, to make them blossom as the rose, . and you will 

not give us -a cent. We have not a single nickel in this bill. [Laugh:-

ter.] . Now, let me tell'you where the pork is circulated in this measure, . and I must hurry .through, as I want to keep inside of my five min- · utes. Maine, the little Pine-Tree State of Maine, that is represented • by a gentleman of brains who is larger than the whole State [laughter]-and I make no personal allusion-gets $67,000. 

New Hampshire-and I do not know whether they have got a harbor up there in that part of the country or not-gets $22,500. Massachusetts, $276, 000---that belongs to the pork-and-be..'lns section of the 

country. [Laughter.] Vermont gets $20,000. Rhode Island, about 

which my friend SPOONER made a magnificent speech yesterday, or the 

day before-you get $50,000 of the general swag. 

Mr. SPOONER. And we are entitled to a great deal more. Mr. BELFORD. Connecticut gets $138,00(:). North Carolina, with 

the largest seacoast border in this country-they_ c.ut that State downand they get, I think, $112,000. South Carolina, $179,000; Georgia, 

$140,000; Louisiana, $279,000; Texas, larger than the whole Republic 

of Franee-yes, you could chuck the whole Republic of France into the 

State ofTexas and it worild not create a ripple on the surrace [laughter]_:_Texas gets $1,112,500. And outside of_ this stittement I challenge any gentleman to ,show notwithstanding the fact that Colorado 

pours into your Treasury every year million~ of dollars and has done so from the time she came into this constellation of States, gleaming 

with the burning beauty of the beams of the sky-Y.OU never appropriated over $60,000 for her benefit. Hold on to that gavel fora moment. 

[Laughter.] We a.re fit objects for public robbery, but you are not 

willing to give us a cent to build up a-million-of homes for a million 

of poor families in t.he West, homes of men who will make your spindles turn,, men who will construct your railroads, men who will transport the commerce of the country, and who by their money and labor 

and resources have enriched and are enricQ.ing thisnation-youarenot 

willing to give us a penny. Take your bill and pass it if you can. 

[Laughter, and cries-of "Vote ! " "Vote ! "J 

I withdraw the amendment. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving the harbor at Brunswick, Ga. : Continuing improvement, $18,000. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. Mr. Chairman, I offer the amendment which I 

send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: · 

Strike out, in line 192, the word " eighteen >t and insert "twenty-five;" so that it will read: · . . "Continuing improvement, $25,000." 

l\1r. NICHOLLS. This harbqr of Brunswick, Mr. Chairman, is a very important harbor, one of the most important on the coas~, not only 

to the commerce of that State, but to the commerce of the West. The 

appropriations have been very small in the past. I read from the re- port of the Chief of Engineers: The first appropriation of 1836 was for the removal of the Brunswick Bar, and was so expended. . In 1879, the date of the' next appropriation, there was only nine feet of water at low tide over the bar at the entrance of the harbor. The improvement since commenced and still in progress had resulted in June, 1882, in establishing a channel from forty to fifty feet in width, with a. minimum depth of about thir- teen feet at low water, and has benefited commerce by increasing the depth over the -bar. The present plan contemplates a depth of fifteen feet at low tide over the bar. 

It will be seen, Mr. Chairman, by an examination of this report, that 

the amount appropriated by the act .of Augusi 2, 1882, was $25,000. 

On July 1, 1882, the outstanding liabilities, inclusive of the amount 

expended, was $24,502; and on the 1st of July, 1883, the amount 

available was only $498.90. ' 

Now, I only ask for an increase of $7,000, and I think it is impor-· 

tant to increase the appropriation at that point. 

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on agreeing to the amendment 

proposed by the gentleman from Georgia. 

The question was taken; and on a division there were-ayes 2~, noes 

47. 

So the amendment was not agreed t_o. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving harbor at Savannah: 9ontinui.ng improvement, $85,000. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. I move to amend, in-line 196, by strjking out 

"$85,000" and inserting "$200,000." 

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment of the 

gentleman from Georgia. 

The amendment was read by the Clerk. . Mr. NICHOLLS. Now, there can l?e no doubt in the minds of any one who is at all familiar with the international and national importance Qf· the port of Savannah as to the propriety of this ame~dment. 

The appropriation of $85,000 ammlnts to nothing, since that amount will 

not accomplish any material results, and they had just as ell not appropriate one dollar, because about as fast as the work is done on such -meager 

appropriations it is destroyed for lack of money to prosecute it vigor-

• 
1398 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

ously. We really need ·there a large appropriation for purposes which 

I will specify. We should have, forinstance, an increaseofthe appropriation t{) enable the construction of a large ~d powerful dredge-boat, 

at a cost of about $100,000, to be used on the bar at Savannah, in 

Charleston Harbor, in Brunswick, and on the Saint John's Bar. The 

construction of such a boat would enable the work to be carried on a great deal more rapidly than it is possible, to do it now. I desire to have read a letter from the chairman of the river andhar- • bor committee of the council of the city of Savannah, showing the 

great necessity for an increase of the appropriation to that harbor. 

The Clerk read as follows: · 

CITY OF SAVANNAH, MAYOR'S 0FFICl!:, 

Savannah., Ga., January 31, 1885. 

DEARSm: Ascha.irmanof~helu\,rborandrivercom.mitteeofthecouncilofthe 

city of Savannah, I beg most respectfully to call your attention to the proposed 

appropriation of only S85,000 for the improvements in the Savannah River, and to request that you will exert your in1luence for the increase of this amount, 

which is so inadequate for the successful prosecution of the work already begun. In the present incomplete condition of these improvement-s the channel, of ne- cessity, is shifting continually, which causes frequent grounding of vessels, thus 

greatly obstructing commerce and entailing expense by delay, and often of lighterage. T)lis shifting, of course, can be remedied only by the completion of the 

improYements, and you will appreciat-e at once of what vital importance this com- pletion is, not only to the city of Savannah, but also to the State at large; and to secure thts most needed result an appropriation for the coming year of at least 

$200,000 is required. The commercial int-erests of the entire State would suffer 

if the rapid and vigorous prosecution of this most important work should have to stop from any cause, and especially when that cause is the failure of Congress to make a sufficiently large appropriation. Bespeaking for this matter a continuance of that interest and influence which 

you always have shown and exerted in matters of such vital importance to the 

city of Sa"\""annah, and w Web are so intimately connected with the welfare of the 

State, I am, dear sir, respectfully, yours, • ROBT. D. BOGART, 

Chairman Committee on Harbor and River. 

Ron. JoliN C. NICHOLLS, HO'U&6 oj' Representatives, Washingt.on, D. C. 

!1r. NICHOLLS. I now ask tha.t the report of the Chief of Engineers be read. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

SAVANNAH RlVER ~D HARBOR, GEORGIA (page 134). 

The appropriations between 1826 and 185i>, inclusive, were chiefly"applied to the removal of wrecks sunk in the channel-way of the river below Savannah 

during the Revolutionary war; to dredging shoals produced by them and at other points, and in .constructing. works designed to throw a; large volume of water into "Front River." The result was an increase of d,epth at the worst places of from seven or eight feet at low water to ten feet, and an increase of 

theavailablehigh-waterdepth,fromTybeeRoadstothecity,fromaboutfourteen 

to sixteen or seventeen feet. 

The channel-way of the river below the city greatly deteriorat~d during the 

civil ·war, in consequence of numerous and extensive ol>structio'ns placed in it. 

'I.' he first three appropriations since 1872 were a! most exclusively used in remov- ing- those portions of the obstructions most injurious to navigation, and to that extent commerce was benefited by the work. 

The expenditures since 1874 have resulted in forming a practical ship-channel 

from Tybee Roads to the city of Savannah, by which about thirte.en feet at low water and nineteen feet at high water can now be carried to the city. Under the existing plan it is expected that at its completion vessels .drawing 

twenty-two feet will be able to reach the city wharves. · 

July 1,1882, amount available ............................................. ..... -: ............ Sl5, 051 ~ Amount appropriated by act passed August 2, 1882 .............................. 200,000 00 

.fu1y I, I883, amount e.x:\>ended during fiscal year, exclusive . of outstanding liabihties July I, 1882 ...... : ........ : ............... $116,591 21 

2I5,051 92 

July 1,1883, oub!tanding liabilities ............................. ,........ 37,445 09 . 154,036 30 

July 1,1883,amount available .............................................. : ................ 61,015 62 

The CHAIRMAN. · The time of the gentleman from Georgia has expired. . Ur. GEORGE D. WISE. I move t{) strike out the· last word, and 

yield my time to the gentleman from Georgia [Ur. NICHOLLS]. 

Mr. WILLIS. I hope the gentleman will not occupy more time but 

will let us have a vote. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. I have only a word to add. The chairman ofthe 

Committee on Rivers and Harbors seems to be very ·uneasy abOut the 

time to be occupied. More has been saved to the country by the mem- ber who now addresses this committee, in not occupying·the public time 

upon this floor -as much as other gentlemen have, than perhaps the 

whole amount I ask to be appropriated for this important work. It is 

very rarely that I am on the floor taking up the time of the country by· addressing the House or the Committee of the Whole on any subject of 

this character. But I feel vro:y much in earnest about this. It is a very important work, as 1 remarked at the outset, and the small appropriation made by this committee for"that important harbor, it occurs to 

me, would be like throwing the money into the river instead of expending it for improvements. we· ought to expend a sufficient sum on these 

harbors, the amount asked by the engineers, and complete the work 

and be done with it. Why ·go on from year to year and appropriate 

inadequate amounts and accomplish no good result? When a work of 

this important character is brought to the attention of the House, why 

not make a sufficient appropriation to accomplish some good? 

The question being taken on the amendment offered by Mr. NICHOLLS, 

there were-ayes 23, noes 49. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. No quorum. 

The CHAIRAlAN. A quorum not having voted, the Chair appoints 

as tellers the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. NICHOLLS, and the gentle- man fro~ Kentucky, Mr. WILLIS. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. I will not delay the bill, and do not insist on a vote by .tellers. 

So (further count not being called for) the amendment was not 

agreed to. 

The Clerk read the following pa.ragra~h: 

Improving Tampa Bay, Florida: Continuing improvement, $10,000. 

Mr. DAVIDSON. I offer the amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 200 strike out ~ 10,000" and insert "$37 ,000." 

Mr. DAVIDSON:. I favor the passage of a river and .harbor bill at 

the present session and at every session of Congress. I believe, sir, that a liberal and judicious expenditure of money for the :improvement of our rivers and harbors is right; that'it helps the laborer, benefits com merce, and improves the general welfare of our country. Therefore, 

sir, in offering this amendment I was prompted by no desire to delay 

action upon this bill, but simply by a sense of duty. · The town of Tampa, on Tampa Bay, is about two hundred an{l fifty 

miles from Key West and three hun~ed and fifty miles from Havana. 

Within the last three years it has greatly improved in population and commerce. It is now the te~us of one railroad connecting it with 

the SaintJohn'sRiveratSanford, anditwillsoon betheterminusofanother connecting it by rail with .1acksonville. It is situated immediately on the line of travel from the. United States to Cuba and the Central American and South American ,States, and before this year ends 

no doubt the mails from our country_ will be carried through Tampa 

to.Havan.a. · · 

This work W3j commenced about four years since. Forty thousand 

dollarS have ·been expended. ·A great good has resulted from tha.t expenditure. The engineers report that $37,000 can be profitably ex- pended during the next fiscal year, and that amount will complete the 

work. 

A few days since I received a paper signed by many of .the leading · citizenS of Tampa, addressed to the Senators and Representatives in 

Congress from Fl9rida, urging them to appeal to Congress at its present 

session to make the necessary appropriation to complete the work at that 

place. If the committee will bear with me, I will read a few ex.tracta 

from this paper. It came too late. to be referred to the Committee on Rivers and Harbors before they had agreed upon their bill: 

Tampa is now the terminus of the longest a.nd most successful system of 

railroads reaching the Gnlf of Mexico. Its line of road, of which it is the termi- nus, is to be speedily connected ·to other systems of railroad; '-nd other individual lines of railroad.s are being built to this city. It has thus been chosen 

by skillfu1, competent, and far-seeing engineers and capitalists a a natural out- let to the Gulf of Mexico. · 'Ve earnestly ask you to recognize the importance of the position of the town ot Tampa, with its bay and harbor, its railroad and terminal possessions, its direct 

and continuous connection with all great Northern, Eastern, and Western States 

and cities b,y railroad, and its safe and clo epo itiontothe Island of Cuba, South 

A.tnerica, and 'Vest Indies-being the most southern seaport town with railroad 

service open (with but little improvement to its channel)-to the vast trade, ex- port and import, of Cuba and West Indies, also South America . We wish paPticularly to call to your attention the useless w.ork accomplished by small appropriations, that ere the work is commenced the appropriation is 

expended, and even with what has been appropriated and expended our ship- ping to Cuba, South America, Key West, West Indies, and New Orleans, is seriously impeded by lack of water in our channel and obstructions n~eding re- moval. . 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. WILLIS. I ask for a vote. 

The question being taken on Mr. DAVIDSON's amendment, there 

were-ayes 19, noes 43. . So (further count not being called for) the amendment was not agreed 

to. 

Mr. DAVIDSON. I offer the amendment which I send to the desk. 

The Clerk read ;ts follows: 

A.fter"the word." doUars," in line 200, insert: 

"Improving harf>or at Pensacola, Fla., including outer and inner bars, $100,- 000." . . 

Mr. DAVIDSON. I regret to occupy the time of the.com.mittee, but 

I am prompted by a sense of duty to offer this amendment. The.importance of the harbor of Pensacola, and the necessity for an appropria.-

tion to improve it, have induced me to offer this amendment. I can tell 

this committee that if our country desires a deep-water outlet on the 

Gulf of Mexico for its agricultural products and the products of its man- ufacturers, a safe and· convenient port, a spacious anchorage for vessels, 

Pensacola is that port. Sir, it is a port of importance; it is growing in 

importance, and it is already a place of far more importance than many 

membersofthis committee probably think it is. For the year ending 

June 30, 1883, the value of the exports from Pensacola was $2,598,549; 

for the year ending June 30,1884, the value of the exports was $3,025,246. 

The number of vessels entering and leaving the port of Pensacola during the year ending June 30,1883, was 1,111, of which 685were foreign 

vessels; and for the year ending June 30, 1884, the number of vessels was 1, 184, of which 777 were foreign vessels. The aggregate tonnage 

for the year ending June 30, 1884, was 698,851 tons. 

Now, sir, I shall have to occupy a few moments in reading some ex- tracts from the report made by Assistant Engineer Hayes to Captain 

• 

' 
188(} . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-· HOUSE. 1399 ... 

Hoxie, of the Corps of Engineers. · I read from the report of the preliminary examination: 

\The preliminary examination of the "outer bar," xeported t-o 1\IaJ. A.~· Dam- rell Corps of Engineers, United States Army, July 15 1884, shows the diStance ac~ss it, between the 25-foot curves, to be 3,000 feet; the minimum depth upon the crest of the bar to be 22.25 feet at mean low water, and the amount of ex- cavation required to cut a. channel across it 300 feet wide, affording a. depth of 24 feet at mean low water, or the same depth as is contemplated for-the c.ha.nnel across the" inner bar," is estimated to beSO,~cubicya.rds . . Th1swor_k1s more exposed than that on the "inner b:u," and w1ll cost about $100,000 for 1t.s execution. 

[Here the h;tmmer fell.] 

1lfr. DAVIDSON. 1\fr. Chairman, while I am aware that it probably 

will not accomplish any good at the present time, I will, with the permission of the Honse, print with my remarks extrads from the report 

of this preliminary examination. The following are the extracts: 

The comm~rcia.l statistics of the port of Pensacola. for the fiscal year ending June 30 1884 exhibits the present extent and importance of its foreign and domestic ~m~erce. It will be observed that the tonnage of sailing vessels ent-er- ing this port exceeds that of any port on the Atlantic and Gulf coast between 

Philadelphia and the Rio Grande, including Baltimore and New Ol"leans. • • * 

The largest cargoes of lumber and tim bel" ever shipped by steamers or sailing 

vessels from any Southern port have sailed from Pensacola since the 1st of July, 

~ the site of one of the largest and best appointed naval stations of the coun- try, Pensacola Harbor possesse~ consequence as a~ impor~nt positi<?n for naval 

operations in the Gulf of MeXIco. Its geographical pos1tlon relM.t1vely to the commerce of the Gulf; its proximity to resources which form the mat-erial of war as well as of commerce, to the development of which so wonderful a. mo- mentum is now being imparted; the removal of a. great barrier to the commerce of Europe and ~erica. with the Pacific b¥ the co_nstruction of the lsthmu~Canal; 

the rapid extension of the n':twork of ra.il_wa.ys m the ~ulf States, of ~hich Pe~­

sacola is an important termmus, developmg the capac1ty of productiOn of agricultural values, mining and manufacturing resources of these States, will at no remote period give test to the capacities and advantages of every Gulf port 

which will give prominent si~ificance to this harbor. 

The question was taken on the amendment offered by 1lfr DAVIDSON, 

and it was not agreed to. · Mr. DAVIDSON. Mr. Chairman, as I have already said, I dislike 

exceedingly to occupy the time of the committee; but representing as I do a district which has more seacoast than any other in the Union, I 

feel it my duty to offer another amendment, which I send to the Clerk's 

desk to be read. 

The Clerk read the amendment, as follows: 

After line 200 insert: 

"Improving the harbor of C-edar Keys, Fla.: Continuing improvement, $10,000." 

1lfr. DAVIDSON. Upon that amendment; ·Mr. Chairman, I have 

this to say: At .the last session of Congress the Commi_ttee on Riversand Harbors recommended an appropriation of $5,000 tO commence the 

work _on the harbor of Cedar Keys. In this :bill there is no provision 

made for that harbor. The engineer, speaking of this harbor, says: 

In my judgment, the harbor of Cedar Keys is worthy of improvement, and a work of public necessity, on accOtmt of the large and rapidly increasing com- merce of the port, and the small expenditure, relatively, probably necessary to gh-e the relief sought. 

He further says that $25,000wi11 be sufficient to complete the work, 

I repeat that $5,QOO w~ recommended for this-harbor by the Committee on Rivers and Harbors in the last bill, and the recommendation was agreed to, and now by this.amendment I ask only for $10,000 more to 

carry on the work. 

The question was taken on the amendment offered by Mr. DAVIDSO:N1 

and it was not agreed to. 

The Clerk read the next paragraph of the bill, as follows : 

Improving harbo~ at Mobile, Ala.: Continuing improvement, $120,000. 

Mr. DUNHAM. Mr. Chairman,· I wish some gentlemanofthecommittee would explain how it happens that Mobile is given an appropriation 50 per cent. larger relatively than is usually given by this 

bill to other harbo~ throughout the country. 

1lfr. JONES, of Mabama. It- is because the necessity of that pla{Je 

required it in the judgment of the committee. [Laughter]. 

Mr. HQRR. Can the gentleman tell ns what the exigency was which 

caused the commi~e to recommend an appropriation for Mobile of 50 

per cent. of the estimate when they have allowed only 25 per cent. to 

similar harbors all over the country? 

Mr. JONES. The comJD,ittee have allowed more than 25 per cent. 

of the estimates to different harbors throughout the country. Anumber-of such have been mentioned. Detroit River, in the gentleman's own State, gets 100 per cent. of the estimate; the Ohio Rive gets 

$370,000 on an estimate of $600,000-over 50 per cent.; New London 

gets 66 per cent. · . Mr. HORR. The. Detroit River appropriation is to complete a rock 

channel at the Lime Kilns, which is almost completed. This little bal- ance of $27,000 finishes it. 

Mr. JONES, of Alabama. Yes, sir. 

1\fr. TURNER, of Kentucky. Mr. Chairman, what is the question 

lJefore the committee? 

The CHAIRMAN. There is no motion pending. 

l\fr. TURNER. I call for the regular order. 

Mr. HORR. I move to strike out the last words of the paragraph. 

I would like to know why the gentleman [Mr. JoNES, of Al~bama] 

takes an extreme case like the Detroit River appropriation, where the 

engineers estimate that $27,000 will complete the work-a river that 

has. upon it a commerce of $40,000,000. , Mr. JbNES, of Alabama. The estimate of the board of engineers _is 240,000 as the sum that will complete the Mobile improvement, 

which was estimated originally to cost $820,000. The committee was :infiuenced to give one-half of the amount of the estimate in order that 

the next appropriation might complete the work, as the Detroit River 

work is to be completed. · Mr. HORR. Who influenced them? 

Mr. JONES, .of Alabama. Why, they were influenced by a consideration of everything connected with the case. · · Mr. HORR. Oh, you did not mean they were influenced by any partioular person. I know I could not get into the room of the committee 

to :infiuence them, though I tried to. [Laughter.] 

Mr. JONES, of Alabama.. Now, sir, this harbor of Mobile is quite 

different, in rega.rd to the nature of the work, from all the other harbors on the Atla.ntic and Gulf.coasts. In every other one of them the 

material to be dealt with in I)laking harbor improvements is sand, and 

the work done on them is very unsatisfactory; but at Mobile the ma- terial is blue mud, and the work there is reported ffy engin001'S to be 

permanent. • Ur._ HORR. Then, wherev~rit is blue mud the committee allowed 

one-half the estimate. [Laughter.] i 

Mr. JONES, of Alabama. Where the improvement was likely to be 

permanent. A large experimental cut twenty-two feet deep, one hundred feet wide, and three hundred feet long was made at Mobile in 

1882, and it has been f~mnd that there is no shoaling and the work is 

permanent; hence the engineer in charge feels warranted in reporting 

and does report that the dredging done and to be done there will be permanent. No work d~;me at any other harbor from Old Point Comfort 

to the Rio Grande is so satisfactory. · Now I will read what the engineer in charge of this work says 

about it: As the early completion of the channel as projected, and also its comparative permanency, is now believed by the commercial portion of this port to be a. cer- tainty, business and commerce have assw;ned a. healthy condition, realty has increased in value, new. industries are springing up, new companies forming, not only in Mobile, but wit..h wonderful rapidity throughout the vast mineral and 

timber portions of Alabama and adjacent States- . 

A MEMBER. What is the commerce? • 1Y.(r. JONES, of Alabama (reading)-

The amount of shipping of 1883 and l884 is about 40 per cent. greater in num· ber than that of 1881 and 1882, while the tonnage is about 54 per ~nt. increase, 

showing a. much larger .class of vess~ls now seeking this port. 

Mr. HORR. Now, as I understand, there are about two hundred or two hundred and fifty ships going into Mobile in the course of a year. On the river I spoke of in Michigan there are at least six hundred-! think it would be safe to say nine hundred; but I will saysix 

hundred. Why do y·ou cut down-- . Mr. HERBERT. There has been an increase of tonnage at Mobile 

since this work began-a very great increase the present season. Mr. HORR. Well, there ought to be an increase. 

111r. JONES, of Alabama. The increase is on account of this improvement there. · Mr. HQRR. I do not find any fault with 1ihe improvement at Mobile; but the treatment of Mobile in comparison with some other localities does not seem to me to be fair, that is all. 

Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, I take the floor simply for the purpose of answering the inquiry why 50 per cent. of the estimate has 

been given by the committee at this place rather than 25 per cent., as in other instances. 

A MEMBER (to Mr. THOMAS). Ifyouanswer that youwilldowell. 

Mr. THOMAS. I will give what I think should be accepted as a complete answer. The representative on the committee from that State 

urged upon the committee the importance of this improvement over every other in the State, saying he was willing, and it was acceptable 

to the residue of the delegation from the State, that the appropriations 

for other improvements in the State should be less in order that this one grand improvement should be carried forward to completion. That -has governed 'the action of the committee, and although 50 per cent. of 

the estimate is allowed in this instance, the appropriations for the other 

projects in the State are cut down to less than 25 per cent. This is a. straightforward statement of the reason why 50 per cent. has been 

given in this instance instead of 25. · Mr. DUNHAM. Mr. Chairman, I had no desire to disturb the com- mittee on this question; but in examining this bill together with the 

engineer's estimates~ I discovered that the 'bill gave to Mobile 50 per 

cent. of the estimate, which was larger in proportion than the-amount 

allowed tO any other harbor thus far reached in this bill. My desire 

in asking the question was simply that this fact might be explained and 

that we might understand the reason of this apparent discrimination. 

I must say, however, even after what the gentleman from Alabama 

[Mr. JoNES] has stated, that, judging from the amount of· commerce 

going into that harbor, I can not see any real necessity for giving Mo· 

bile more in proportion than any other harbor in the United States. 

Mr. BLANCHARD obtained the floor. 

Ur. HORR. _ Before the gentlemanproceedslwish to cor_rectastate-
1400 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY. 7, 

ment which I made a moment ago. ·I said that probably six hundred 

vessels went into the Saginaw River in the course of a year. I find 

the actual number is over 2,000, against two hundred or a ~ittle more · 

at Mobile. · 

Mr. BLANCHARD. In further explanation of the action of the 

committee in regard ·to Mobile Harbor, I ·will state that the original 

project of the engineer was to obtain a channel in that bay t wo hundred feet wide and seventeen- feet deep. The money heretofore expended has been used in deepening that harbor to the depth of seventeen feet, but the width of the channel is only one hundred feet. 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. Seventy-five feet. 

ll:fr. BLANCHARD. It was seventy-five feet, but bas been inc1·eased 

twenty-five feet, making one hundred feet. Now, that is not a sufficient width to do any good with a depth of seventeen feet. The committee thought it would be right to giv~ enough money to widen this 

channel in Mobile Bay to two hundred feet-, so as to render it available 

for commerce, and to make a corresponding reduction upon works in 

other parts of the State. · 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. That channel is twenty- ix miles long. 

ConSequently it takes a good ~l of money to make a .cut. · !rlr. HERBERT. Mobile has the largest watershed, I believe, anywhere east of the Mississipi)i. It is the natural port of the Gulf of 

Mexico. As soon as the work is completefi it will be a more desirable 

harbor than New Orlean . Every dollar that is put in there is valuable. Every bucketful or basketful of earth taken out oi that harbor 

makes it exactly that much deeper, because, as bas been said by my 

colleague, the bottom of that bay is blue mud, or, rather, a bard sort of 

clay, and money invested there pays more in actual results than anywhere else. The natural flow of the cmTent tends to wash the channel 

deeper instead of to :fill it up, as in other places. 

I was told by t.he Government{mgineer that an old British chart made 

a hundred years ago shows that on the bay the water was then one foot 

shallower than it is now. This confirms his opinion that the natmal 

action of the current is to wash the channel deeper. But the clay is 

too hard; it washes too slowly. It must be taken out by the dredge, . 

and then Mobile will become, what by its position on t.he Gulf and its 

proximity to coal and iron it is entitled to be, a great lll:anufact.uring 

and commercial city . • One word as to why this 50 per cent. is given here. In the last appropriation bill my recollection is that Mobile got $200,000. Considering the importance of that port relatively to others that was not too 

much. The engineers bave since reported that to complete the work 

according to the present plan only$:MO,OOO was neceS!'Ury. That really 

ougnt to have been all appropriated at· once. But suppose you go to. 

work at this sum on tne 25 per cent. rule, giving only 25 per cent. of 

what the engineers recommend each year. You will never get through 

.with appropriating that needed $240,000-needed to make a channel 

one hundred feet wide and seventeen feet deep. t The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman's time bas expired. 

Mr. HERBERT. Fifty per cent. of that $240,000 is only $120,000. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

MESSAGE FRO~I THF.' SE~ATE. 

The House informally: rose; and a message from the Sen;tte, by Mr. 

. 

McCooK, its Secretary, announced the passage ofbills'Ofthe House'of 

the following titles: . A bill (H. R. 5670) to authorize a retired-list for privates and. noncommissioned officers of the United States Army who have se1:ved for 

a period,of thirty years ~r upward; 

A bill ~H. R. 6934) granting a pension to 1nn J. Williarns; 

A bill H. n. 7295-) granting a pension to Albert D. Simmons; 

A bill H. R. 433) to increase the pension of Simpson Harris; 

A bill H. R. 6665 for the relief of James Stack; 

A bill H. R. 2987~ restoring Rebecca Walcott to the pension-roll; 

A bill (H. R. 2920) for the relief of John Johnson; 

A bill (H. R. 1256) increasing the pension of Ben Morgan; 

A bill (H. R. 5500) for the relief of Benjamin F. Amos;· 

A bill (H. R. 5004) for the relief of William B. .Snrith; 

A bill (H. R. 4041) restoring the name of Zelica T. Dunlap to the 

pension-roll; · A bill (H. R. 3703) granting a pension to James W. Brown; 

A bill (H. R. 6282) to place the name of R. W. Dll.Dcan on the pension-roll; 

A bill (H. R. 5960) granting a pension to George Ziefle; 

A bill (H. R. 6461) granting a pension to Nelsqn Gammons; 

A bill (H. R. 6084) to restore the name of Walter H. Crow to the 

pension-roll; · . A bill (H. R. 2432) for the relief of Urs. Jane Young; 

A bill (H. R. 2348) granting a pension to John D. Rickards; 

A bill· (H. R. 6594) granting a pension to Russell F. Dimmick: 

A bill (H. R. 5632) granting a pension to Sarah J. Bremmer; 

A bill (H. R. 5630l granting a pension to George W. Rugg; A bill (H. R. 2452 granting a pension to Frank ·S. Marsh; . A bill (H. R. 7141 granting !:1 pension to Daniel W . .Adams; 

A blll (H. R. 356.j) granting a pension to William Eurele; 

A bill (!f.. R. 2908) granting a pension to James Mc~fanns; 

A bill (H. R. 5565l granting a pension to Theo Ahrens; . A bill (H. R. 2692 granting a pension to Sarah Kennedy; 

A bill (H. R. 6726 granting· a pension to Uargaret A. Maguire; 

A bill (H. R. 6882) granting a pension to .John Otis; 

A bill (H. R. 2002) tor the relief of Mrs. Jennie E. .Johnson; 

A bill (H. R. 6997) granting a pension to Henry Davis; . 

A bill H. R. 5776) granting a pension to Louis D. Petty; 

A bill !H. R. 1084) granting a pension to Dorothea Bothner; 

A bill H. R. 4379l for the reliefofUaj. W. W. Frybarger; 

A bill H. R. 3663 granting a pension to John T. Marshall; 

A bill (H. R. 6480 granting a pension to :Margaret G. Halpine; 

A bill (H. R. 760) granting an additional pension to Watson S. :Bentley; 

A bill (H. R. 1504) for the relief of .M:illia Staples; 

A bill (H. R. 3612) granting a pension to Hayden Reynolds; 

A bill (H. R. 5812) granting a. pen ion to Ellen A. Vance; 

A bill (H. R. 499) granting a pension to Mary A. Knawber; 

A bill ~H. R. 6927) granting a pension to Merit 1\I. Oakley; 

A bill H. R.·l171 ) granting pen ion to Isabel Campbell; 

A bill H. R. 704G) granting a pension to Alonzo Cornwell; 

A bill H. R. 4752) granting a pen ion to William Henning; 

A bill. (H. R. 4238) granting a pension to Sallie Ingham; 

A bill (H. R. 4{)59) granting a pension to Isaac Demaranville; 

A bill !H. R. 2399) granting a pension to Clarissa McKee; 

A bill H. R. 5926) granting a pension to John Maloney; 

A bill H. R. ·6956) granting a pension to Maria H. Sargent; 

A bill H. R. 6311 ) granting a pension to Mrs. Sarah S. Sampson; 

A bill [H. R. 3527) granting a pension to George.A. Marshall; 

A bill H. R. 2140) ior the relief of Hugh Dougherty; and 

A bill H. n. 5923) granting a pen ion to Ruth Stratton. 

It further announced the paS8age of bills of the followi.9g titles, with 

amendment; in which concurrence was requested: 

A bill (H. R. 3370) to amend. an act. en tilled "An act granting a pension to A. chuyler Sutton, " approved June 4, 1872; 

A bill (H. R .. G546) granting a pension to David 111. Nagle; ~nd. 

A bill (H. R. 6816) tor the relief of Nathan J. Sharp. 

lt further announced the passage of bills of the following title ; in 

which the concurrence of the House was requested: 

A bill (S. 357) granting a pension to Mrs. Charlotte Hackett; 

A bill (S. 1546) granting a pension to Orin R. McDaniel; 

A bill (S. 1571) gran·tiog a pension to James McCallen; 

A bill (S. 1655) granting a pension to Newton J. Burris; 

A bill (S. 1709) granting a pension to Lenora A. Boyden; 

A bill (S. 1790) granting an increase of pension to Edgar L. Dutton, 

A bill (S. 1803) granting au increase of pension to George A. Wash· 

bourn;· · 

A bill (S. 1804) granting a pension to Clarinda Hunt; · 

A bill (S. 2009) granting a pension to Isabella Turner; 

A bill ( S. 2158) granting an increase of pension to Jessee I. Hilrroltl; 

• A bill (S. 2160) granting ·a pension to Robert Walker; 

A bill (S. 2204 ) granting arrears of pension to Nancy B. Leach; 

A bill (S. 2231) granting a pension to Mrs. Kate A. Drummond; 

A bill (S. 2'27:2) gmnt4ng a pension to Andrew Franklin, alias Andrew McKee; 

A bill (S. 2327) for the relief of James Bedell, sr.; 

A bill (S. 2398) granting a pension to Cyrus Reeser; 

A bill (S. 2514) granting a pension to David T.- Hoover; 

A bill (S. 2547) granting an increase of pension to Mrs. Jfrances L. 

Thomas; widow of lrluj. Gen. George H. Thomas; 

A bill (S. 2549) granting a pension to Isabella Higgins; 

A bill (S. 2587) granting a pension to William H. H. Gilley; 

A bill (S. 2594) to change the name of the Manufacturers' National 

Dank, of New York, to the Manufacturers' National Bankt of Brooklyn, 

N.Y.; . · 

A bill ( . 2610) granting a pension to Patrick Furlong; and 

A joint resolution ~. H.. 119) accepting the gift of William H. Vanderbilt and Julia Dent Grant, wife of Ulysses S. Grant, to the United 

State~S of certain articles. · · 

RIVER AND HARBOR APPROPRIATION· BILL. 

The Committee of the Whole resumed its. session. 

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the Chair will regard the pro forma amendments of the gentleman from Michigan and the gentleman 

from Alabama as withdrawn. 

The amendments were withdrawn. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving harbor at New Orleans, La.: Continuing improvements, trl50,000, 

to be expended under the jurisdiction of the l\Iississippi River Commission. 

Mr. :TURNER, of Kentucky. I offer the amendment which I send 

to the desk. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

In line 205, after the word "dollars," inse1·t "and for the improvement and 

p1·eserva.tion of the harbor at Hickman, Ky., _$50,000." 

Mr. TURNER, of Kentucky. Mr. Chairman, I do not desire to trespass upon the time or the patience of this committee. I have but five 

minutes of time, and I can not do justice to the subject in that brief 
1885; CONGRESSIONAL· RECORD-HOUSE. 1401 

space. I riSe, however, to call the attention of this committee to a few 

points in connection with this Mississippi River improvement. 

In the last river and liarbor appropriation bill there was embraced 

in the Mississippi River improvement, specifically named, the harbors at 

New Orleans, Natchez, Vicksburg, Memphis, Hickman, and at Columbus. In the present bill the Committee on Rivers and Harbors have 

stricken out every harbor on the river named in the last bill which 

passed except New Orleans. They have stricken out Natchez, Vicksburg, Greenville, 1\femphis, Hickman, and Columbus. Why this has 

been done I can not imagine; certainly for no just reason. Now, sir, I say that it is not fair and just. to the other harbors and 

points ofimportance on this river, and which have heretofore been uniformly embmced in the river and harbor bill. It is not fair to these 

harbors and to the great commercial interest of the West and South. ·The harbor of Hickman is the terminus of the Nashville and Chattanooga Railroad, a railroad extending to the East and connecting with 

the roads running throughout the whole Southeastern States and terminating at Hickman, Ky. All the commerce of a great region of conntry is brought to the river by that line ohoad at Hickman. This harbor is a very important point, and has been considered important by 

this very committet., as may be inferred from the fact that it was embraced in the last annual river and harbor appropriation _bill, which 

passed this House at the last session. In addition I desire to say that 

the Mississippi River Commission have recommended in their last report an appropriation for the harbor at Hickman of more than double 

the amount proposed by my amendment. · Mr. GIBSON. Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? 

Mr. TURNER, of Kentucky. No, sir; I do not yield now. The 

gentleman can occupy his ow.n time. I have not ~he time to spare. I 

desire to state t.hat after the river and harbor bill passed at the last 

session of Congres.s, the president of th~ Missis ippi River Commission 

made no improvements whatever at Hickman or Colrunbus; and in 

response to a communication from the mayor and city council, as I am 

informed, stated that he had no money, or that the fund appropriated 

was not sufficient to mako improvements there. Now, however, he 

specifies the amount that is necessary for that harbor, but the committee have left it out. They strike out every harbor on the river except New Orleans. I trust the ame!}dment will be adopted, that the 

harbor may be preserved, for the bank of the river at Hickman is ra~idly 

falling in and the harbor will be destroyed. · Mr. BLANCHARD. I will state to my friend from Kentucky that 

the :Mississippi River Comm~ion which is charged with the important 

duty of the improvement of the Mississippi Ri"\'er from the Des Moines 

Rapids to its mouth made separate estimates for all of these harbors, 

and said in their report that if appropriations were made for any of the 

harbors on the river that they should be :made separately, granting so 

mrich for each. 

Now, when the Committee on Rivers and Harbors came to consider 

"the question of these harbors they came to the conclusion that New 

Orle!lns, being a great seaport, the second in impartance in the United 

States in point of commerce and the amount of shipping and the val ne 

of its exports-that they would make an appropriation for that harbor, 

the estimate for it being $700,000. We appropriated of that amount 

only $150,000. 

Ur. TURNER, of Kentucky. I desire to say to my friend from Louisiana, that I do not want to be understood a antagonizing the appropriation at New Orleans by. any means. 

.Mr. BLANCHARD. I agree the gentleman did not antagonize it, 

but he aBks why is it that appropriation is made by this committee for 

New Orleans when it is denied to Hickman, Ky. I state in response 

to his inquiry that it was because the committee recognized ·New Orleans 

as a great seaport, while Hickman, Ky., can not claim that dignit.y as 

a harbor. · 

Ur. HUNT. Will the gentleman from Kentucky allow a question? 

Mr. TURNER, of Kentuck--y. -I believe my time has expired. 

1\lr. HUNT. I would like to have the gentleman state whether he ever voted for a river and-harbor bill during his sen ice in Congress. 

l\Ir. TURNER, of Kentucky. I have·to reply that the question of 

the gentleman has nothing whatever to do with the question before the 

committee now, and at the proper time I will answer it. · 

l\fr. HUNT. Yon decline to answer it? 

l\Ir. TURNER, of Kentucky. I will answer at a proper time, when 

I have time--

1\lr. HUNT. It is stated to me that you never have, and yet yon 

want the committee to do that which you have never been willing to 

(10 yourself. 

l\:rr. TURNER, of Kentucky. The records of thi~ House will shoF 

my votes in regard to the river and harbor appropriation bills since I 

have been a member of this House; and if the gentleman from Louisi- ana will take the trouble to examine ior himself, he will know jnst 

what my views are and how I voted, for I have expr~sed my views on 

river and harbor bills repeatedly in this House and they are to be found 

in the record, and I stand by the views that I have expressed in regard 

to river and harbor bills. I have always :fiwored the improvement<>f 

navigable rivers that would benefit commerce. Mr. YouNG addressed the Chair. 

. -

. tl 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Louisiana is entitled to the 

floor if he chooses to occupy it in opposition to the amendment of the 

gentleman from Kentucky. 

Mr. YOUNG. I seek recognW.on to askaquestionofmy friend from 

Louisiana, whether or not the appropriation recommended by the Committee on Rivers and Harbors for New Orleans is for the "landing" or 

for the "harbor?" 

Mr. HUNT. I will answer the gentleman from Tennessee. 

1\Ir. YOUNG. Very well, I would like to have an answer. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. It is for the harbor of New Orleans. 

l\Ir. YOUNG. I want to know the particular pointwhere the appropriation is to be disbursed; whether at the river landing or at the mouth 

of the Mississippi River. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. The monthofthe l\fississippiRiver is one hundred and thirteen miles from New Orleans, and this appropriation has 

got nothing to do with the mouth of the river. The harbor of New 

Orleans itself is about two and a half miles long--

Mr. HUNT. The city has a front of eleven miles. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. Then it extends eleven miles along the Mississippi River, and this appropriation is for the harbor of New Orleans. · Mr. YOUNG. Then, if I understand it, it is an appropriation for a 

river front like Hickman, l\Iemphis, and Vicksburg. Bnt I am ·not an- tagonizing it. · 

Mr. HUNT. Then -you are for it. 

M:r. YOUNG. I do not know why! shouldnotbe. Iwithdrawmy 

amendment. 

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. TuRNER]. · 

The amendment was not agreed to. 

I\Ir. 'fURNER, of Kentucky. I offer the amendment which I send 

to the desk. 

The Clerk 1·ead as follmvs: 

In 1ine 205, after the word "dollars," insert: 

"And for the improvement and preservation of the harbor at Columbus, Ky., $50,000." ' . . 

l\fr: TUR~ER, of Kentucky. In addition to ~hat I have jl1St said 

upon the amendment which h:tS been voted down by this con;1mittee, 

in accordance I suppose with the rule which has controlled the committee, or at any rate those having appropriations in the bill to vote 

down all amendments, I simply desire to smte this: That Columbus is 

the terminus of the l\Iobile and Ohi~ Railroad, a railroad running from 

the. Gulf of Mexico and terminating at Columbus, Ky., connecting it 

with a11 the railroads through the Southern and SQutheastern States. 

In addition to that it is the terminus of the. Iron Mountain Railroad, 

running from Saint Louis on the opposite side of the river; tQ.e connection is made there. The amount of the commerce is immense that is 

tmnsported to that point, tbe~iver is c.wing in, the harb9r is being almost destroyed, and it is just as much entit.led to an appropriation as 

New Orleans or any other harbor on the river. 

In addition to that, let me say that the·question was investigated at 

the b.rst se sion of Congress, and after mature and deliberate consideration Columbus was included among the harbo~s to be put in the last 

ri ''er and harbor bill, and the provision for that harbor passed the House 

of Representatives and the Senate and became the law. No improvement was made, bec.ause the president of the Mississippi River-commission said he bad not funds to make the appropriation. He has now 

given his estimate, and says it would take $80,000. I have only asked 

in the amendment for $50,000. I think it is a proper·amendment and 

ought to be adopted. 

1\lr. BAYNE. I want to say a word. I have not detained the committee hitherto because I want to get the bill through the House .. 

There are seven or eight places reported here as harbors and called 

harbors on thel\IississippiRi.ver. They have nomorerightto be called 

harbors than any point on ariy navigable river in the country. They 

are merely landings. . 

The criticism of the gentleman from Kentucky on the New ·Orleans 

appropriation is a just criticism. The $150,000 voted for the so-called 

harbor at New Orleans ought not to be in this bill. No appropriation 

should be madeforNewOrleans, l\Iemphis, Vicksburg, Natchez, Greenville, Hickman, or Columbus or for Cairo. If yon adopt the principle that all the landings along the navigable rivers and lakes of this 

country are to be called harbors and that a separate and distinct appropriation is to be made for each, you 'villrequire aharborbill which 

will run into hundreds of millions of dollars. · That is wha,t this whole 

thing means. The whole thing pught to be stricken out. It was, as 

to all points except New Orleans, but the persistence of my friend from 

New Orleans that secured that appropriation. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. May I ask my friend from Pennsylvania a question? Did he not vote for it in the committee? 

Mr. B.A. YN"E. I acceded to it when I unde1-stood there was no use 

of fighting it, and I have not opposed it here. 

[Here the hammer fell.] · 

Mr. TURNER, of Kentucky. I desire to reply to the remark of the 

gentleman from Pennsylvania. 

Mr. CUTCHEON. I want to ask the gentleman from Pennsylv::tnia a question. [Cries of "Vote ! " Vote ! "] . 
1402 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

l!Ir. TU~NER, of Kentucky. I move to amend the amendment by 

striking out the last word. 

l!Ir. Chairman, I have listened mth a great deal of surprise to my 

friend from Pennsylvania [Mr. BAYNE]. Now, sir, .what is a harbor? 

Here is the last river and harbor bill. What constitutes in this bill 

harbors on the Mississippi River? They are points for the landing of 

boats for the purpose of receiving freight which is brought to the river 

by the railroads which permeate the interior of the country. · My friend from Pennsylvania has been on the River and Harbor Committee for years in this Honse. Every river and "harbor bill that has 

passed this House since I have had the honor of being a member on the · :tloor has embraced specifically, by ~e, the ha.rbors on the Mississippi 

River-New Orleans, Greenville, Vicksburg, Natchez, Memphis, and at 

the last session Congress put in Hickman and Columbus as important 

harbors, -and the gentleman from Pennsylvania has voted fo:r every one of them, and voted for the last bill.· He is the last man that has the 

right to come upon this floor and proclaim at this late day that these 

important points are mere landings and not harbors. The gentleman's 

argument that yon might embrace every landing on the 1tiississippi 

River and on other rivers amouir~ to nothing. Congress would not be 

guilty of such folly, but have properly embraced important term.ini.of 

great railroads, and Hickman and Columbus are two of them-heretofore 

properly included. · It is a matter for the sound discretion of C~:mgress, and it is presumed 

that they will exercise a sound discretion. There are but few points on the Mississippi River that are reached by important lines of railroad. 

Hickman and Columbus are two of the~, Memphis is another, and all 

these are import.ant ha1~rs, which have been embraced in every river 

and harbor bill, and ought not at this late day to be left without provision for their improvement while eyerything is given to the city of 

New Orleans. [Cries of "Vote!"] 

The CHAillMAN. Does the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. TURNER] withdraw his formal amendment? 

Mr. T.URNER, of Kentucky. I do. 

The question was taken on the previous amendment offered by Mr. 

TURNER, of Kentucky, and it was not agreed to. · Mr. HEPBURN. I moye to str.ike out the lines of the pending bill 

2Q-2, 203, 204,.205, and 206. 

1\Ir. C}¥lirman, so far as my information goes, the aim of this so-called 

harbor improvement at New Orleans is nothing more than the building 

of a levee, the broadening of a levee, and the pavement of a levee, for 

the convenience and protection of the people of New Orleans. If there 

is anything more than that in this proposed ''improvement, '' I shall be 

glad to have some of the gentlemen from Louisiana instruct me at,a. proper time. My information is that oppositethecity of New Orleans 

throughout the whole breadth of the Mississippi River there is a navigable depth of over fifty feet of water~ 

.A. MEMBER. One hundred feet. 

Another ME:\IBER. Two hundred feet. . . Mr. HEPBURN. There isnothing neededat that place for tbenavigation ·of the river except a proper bank, a proper quay for the conven- ience of shippers-just exactly snch an ''improvement" as at the 

city of Burlington, at the city of Davenport, at the city of Dubuque, 

the people, for their own convenience and out of their own treasury, 

have from year to year been making. I know of no reason wliy the 

people of New Orleans shonld not be required to provide themselves 

with these ordinary facilities of commerce as the :people of other cities 

along the river do. This is simply a provision for the paving of one .of 

the public thoroughfares of the city of New Orleans, a thoroughfare 

upon which there is perhaps more burdensome travel and traffic than 

in any other part of that city. If I am in eiror about this I would be 

glad to have one of these gentlemen inform me of it. 

Mr. KING. The gentleman is very greatly in error. Mr. HEPBURN. Very well, sir; I will yield to you to explain 

wherein I am in error. . [Cries of" Vote!" "Vote!"] · Mr. KING. The gentleman is entirely in error. This money, if appropriated, will not be applied to any highway whatever. 

1tir. HEPBURN. Is not this quay of yours, this landing, a highway? 

1tir. KING. No. . Mr. HEPBURN. Do you not carry .your freights there and receive 

your freights there? 

Mr. KING. No, sir. Thfs appropriation is to be applied to keep 

the harbor where it is. · Mr. HEPBURN. What is the harbor? 

Mr. KING. This is to prevent th~ river by erosion from destroying 

the harbor. 

Mr. ROWELL. Mr. Chairman, in order that we may understand 

what this ''harbor'' is for, it may be well to read from the report of 

the engin~rs on the ~ubject. I read: The project for laying 10,000 feet of mattress revetment, 400 feet wide, in Car- rollton Bend was approved September 18, 1882. 1Vork was begun October 9, 1883, but has made little progress to date, owing to trouble in securing a supp~y 

of brush. 

* * * * . "' · * * On the right bank from Westwego to Algiers there has been serious caving, 

involving milch loss to property of considerable present and much greater pro~ 

spect i ve value. Fully 40,000 feet of bank will require protection. 

U:nder the statement of the Missi.ssippi River Commission, the im· 

provement of New Orleans Harbor devised by that c6mmission was to protect the banks, and they say that fully 43,000 feet of bank will 

need protection to prevent the destruction of private property of large 

present and prospective value. There is no use in trying to escape the 

fact that in addition to the millions appropriated for the Mississippi 

River $150,000 is here proposed to be added to that amount for the 

purpose 9f protecting private prope.rty along the banks of that river. 

That is clearly the case, unless the river commission are mistaken in 

their report. 

Mr. HEPBURN. Mr. Chairman, in addition to what my friend 

[M.r. ROWELL l has said, I want;· to call attention to the fact that this 

improvement is on the bank of.the river opposite to the city of New 

Orleans. It is for the protection of private property which lies on the. 

othec side of the stream-on the right bank of the river. .The question was taken on the motion of Mr. HEPBURN; and on a. rising vote there were-ayes 68, noes 60. 

Mr. WILLIS. Mr. Chairman, I call for tellers. 

Mr. HEPBURN.. Oh, I hope the gentleman will not delu.y the prog- ress of the bill. [Laughter.] 

Tellers were ordered; and the chairman appointed 1\Ir. HEPBURN 

and Mr. BLA~CUARD. 

The committee again divided; and the tellet"S reported-ayes 64, noes 85. 

Mr. HEPBURN. No quorum. 

The CHAffi:MAN. No quorum having voted, the tellers will keep 

their places. There is evidently a quorum present, and gentlemen 

will please vote. 

The committee ~aa,in divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 66, noes 97. • 

So the amendment was not adopted. 

Mr. HEPBURN. I move to amend by striking out in line 204 the 

words ''one hundred and.'' Th~ question being taken on the amendment of Mr. HEPBURN, there 

were-ayes 25, nQeS 68. 

1\Ir. HEPBURN. No quorum has voted. 

The CHAIRM.A.l.~. No quorum having voted, the Chair appointsas 

tellers the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. HEPBURN, and the gentleman 

from Louisiana, l\Ir. BL.ANCHARD. 

The'committee again divided; and the tell,ersreported-ayes 43, noes 

121. . . So the amendment was not agreed to. · Mr. VAN EATON. I offer the amendment which I ask the Clerk 

to read. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

After line 206 insert : "Improving harbor at Natchez, Mjss.: Continuing improvement, $200,000." 

· 1\Ir. VAN E.A.TO~. :Mr. Chairman-· -

Mr. HOLMAN. One word, 1tir. Chairman, before the gentleman pro· ce~. Is it understood ~hat the preceding paragraph-the paragraph 

relating to New Orleans-is passed? 

The· CH.AlRM.A.R The gentleman from .Mississippi [Mr. VAN 

EATON] moves to add something to the end of that paragraph. 

Mr. HOLU.A.N. 1 desire to move to strike ~mt a portion of the paragraph, if I can be recognized. 

Air. WILLIS. I submit,l\Ir. Chairman, that theparagraphthegentleman from Indiana [Mr. HOLl\IAN] refers to is passed. This is another 

paragraph. 

Mr. HOLMAN. When the Chair made the announcement that the 

amendment of the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. HEPBURN] was not agreed 

to the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. VAN EATON] rose-- The CHAIRMAN. And offered an additional paragraph. 

Mr. WILLIS. I make the point that the paragraph in regard to the · improvement at New Orleans has been passed. 

The CHAIRMAN. When the Chair annonneed the result of the 

vote on the amendment of the gentleman from Iowa, the gentleman 

from Mississippi obtained recognition and sent his amendment to the 

desk. After it had been read the gentleman from Mississippi began 

his remarks, and then the gentleman from Indiana rose and .asked the 

Chair a question. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I rise to a point of order. The very moment the 

fact became apparent that a new paragraph was being offered I .rose and 

addressed the Chair. 

Several l'!IEMBERS. Regular order. . The CHAmMAN. The Chair can not be ·responsible as to when 

the gentleman from Indiana became aware of a fact. The fact is that 

tpepa1'3.oaraph to which he refers has been passed. [Cries of "Regular 

order I"] · Mr. HISCOCK. Had the Clerk commenced lhe reading of the subsequent passage? 

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk had read the new paragraph sent up 

by the gentleman from MississiRpi, and that gentleman had begun to 

argue the question. [Cries of 'Regular order!"] 

1\Ir. HOLMAN. I desire to be heard uponaquestionoforder. When 

the Chair had announced the result of the last vote, and before the Clerk 

had proceeded to read, the gentleman from Mississippi immediately 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. 1403 

upon the announcement of the Chair rose- [Cries of "Regular 

order!"] 

Mr. HOLMAN: I have a question of order pending. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman.from Indiana is trying to state 

his point of order. 

Mr. WILLIS. I understand it has been decided. . Mr. HOLMAN. I am trying to state my point of order . . WJlen I 

observed that the gentleman from Mississippi was not· pro:gosing an amendment to the pending-paragraph, but an independent pa:ragraph, 

I instantly rose, because I desired to offer an amendment to the pending paragraph-the paragraph in regard to New Orleans Harbor. No 

other paragraph has been read. I could not intervene between the 

rising of the gentleman from :Mississippi and the announcement made 

by the chairman, for the reason that there was no interval. I had a . right to take it for granted, as I did, that the gentleman from Mississippi rose to make an amendment to the then pending paragraph, the 

only paragraph that had been read and that was before the committee. 

How then could I have intervened so as to meet the objection .raised by 

the gentleman from Kentucky? I concede if the Clerk had proceeded 

to read the next following paragraph of the bill it would then have 

been too late, but he had not done so. The pending paragraph is tpe 

one that relates to the levees at New Orleans. 

Mr. WILLIS. And the next was an entirely new subject, and the 

gentleman from Mississippi had begun his speech when -interrupted. 

The CHAIRMAN. The next paragraph in the bill had not been 

read . . Mr. WILLIS. · But the paragraph submitted by the gentleman from 

Mississippi had been read and the gentleman had begun his speech 

before the gentleman from Indiana was on his feet. · Mr. VAN EATON. That is true. . . Mr. HOLMAN. But the pending paragraph of the bill; to which 

amendments are still in order, is in regard to theN ew Orleans improvement. 

The CHAIRJ.Ir1A.N. The Chair is disposed to think that t~e motion 

of the gentleman from Mississippi is in the nature of an amendment to 

the paragraph as to New Orleans because he adds to it. Therefore that 

paragraph has not yet been parted from, although that amendment may or may not be adopted; and the Chair; on the statement of the gentle- man from Ind.i.a.ll3J that he was endeavoring to get recognition, and sought 

it as soon as he could, will change the former ruling and hold .it to be 

in order. 

Mr. HEPBURN. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. I desir~ to 

P!ow--

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair further suggests, as he did before to 

the gentleman from Indiana, if he was in order to amend the words 

passed over in the b~ll, that it would be proper for him tQ offer his amendm.ent to be acted upon before that of the gentleman from Mississippi. 

Ur. HOLMAN. I move to strike out the words--

Mr. V .AN EATON. I think I am entitled to the floor and claim my 

rights. . · The CHAIRMAN. · The gentleman is entitled to the floor if he insists upon it. The Chair will recognize the gentleman from Indiana 

\ater. 

?t(r. HEPBURN. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. HEPBURN.· I deSire to know whether the paragraph composed 

of lines 203, 204, 205, and 206 is not still open to amendment. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has just so stated, and an amendment 

is now pending to the paragraph and the gentleman from Mississippi l:tas the floor. ~fr. ~BURN. I have an a-mendment I d~ire at ·the proper time 

to offer. 

Mr. VAN EATON. Mr. Chairman, I have offered this amendment 

in perfect good faith, and I respectfully request the attention of this 

committee while ~ compress a two hours' speech in something less· 

than five minutes. . The C9mmittee on Rivers and Harbors have, in some sense, brought 

into this Honse one of the most remarkable bills perhaps that. has 

ever been brought into the House, and now when it comes to matters 

concerning which I and my constituents are interested, they avow the 

most extraordinary doctrine I have ever heard enunciated since I have 

been a member of this body, to wit, that these "landings," as they 

call them, tbe cities upon the banks of the Mississippi River, where 

hundreds of thousands of bales of cotton are a-nnually shipped, and 

where are received the great products of the North and West, are not 

harbors at all, but were landings. Why, Mr. Chairman, only a year 

ago this same committee classed them as harbors in their bill. Thus. they used this language on page 15 of the bill of that year. It will 

be remembered that they made the proposition or rather a-nappropriation in the following terms: 

Improving Mississippi River from the head of the passes to Cairo, including 

the improvement and preservation of the harbors of New Orleans, Natchez, 

Vicksburg, Greenfield, Memphis, ffiokma.n, and Columbus. 

And to-day they object to any appropriation because,.in the classical 

language ofthe gep:£lemanfrom.West Virginia [Mr. GIBSoN], theyare ·mere landings on the Mississippi River7 and not! harbors at all. 

I want to call the a~tion of. this-committee in good faith tQ this 

fact, that all the way from the Des Moines Rapids down to the mouth of 

the .Mississippi this committee has only made appropriations for two 

harbors-one at Cairo and one at New Orleans-both of them, according to the language of the committee, if it is Rroperly voiced by the 

gentleman from West Virginia, being merely ' steamboat landings.'~ 

The fact is, sir, that in all of this m.agnift.cent country from Cairo 

down, including the cotton section of the country, not one dollar is 

appropriated, not one dollar is .set apart for that country that comprises 

the great cotton-producing section of this country, and, I may say, of 

the world. To that whole region of country and its needs this com- mittee has paid 11.0 attention. They have ignored it completely and 

entirely. 

Now, with regard ·to Natchez, the particular amendment under con- sideration, it is a fact tha.t within the last year or.two the river has been 

threatening a cut-off, above, which will likely leave the city a mile or 

two inland from the curre~t and attack the town of Idalia, on the other 

side of the river, and destroy it. 

The Mississippi River Commission has made an estimate. for an ap- • propriation here. Estimates have been made for proper harbors iii all 

this magnificent country. And yet the gentleman tells us they are only 

landings. Why, sir, yesterday the gentleman from West Virginia [Mr. 

GmsoN] used this language: · . · 

I protest here against the appropriation of a. solitary dollar to any landing on the Mississippi River. Those landings are not harbors in any se~ of the word. 

Then at the conclusion of his remarks he said that to make such appropriations ''would destroy the whole object of the system of internal 

improvements, and it would shock the common sense of the country 

and arouse its just indignation against us." 

Now, Mr. Chairman, for fear there might be some just indignation 

aroused against us, I thought I would look over the bill. 

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. YOUNG obtained the floor and yielded his time to Mr. VAN 

EATON. . 

Mr. VAN EATON. I looked over the bill, and I wish to draw the 

attention of the committee to this remarkable fact: In West Virginia 

there was an appropria~on .la8t year of $1,500, and there is another this 

year of the same amount, to improve a mountain stream, the Buch- anan River, which this report of the engineers says is only fifty-seven 

miles in length and can never be made navigable except for logs-logs! 

[Laughter]. Some man who owns some· timber on that river wants to 

get out some sawlogs, and he can not do it unless- this great Government will ~ke an appropriation of$3,000 to get out his sawlogs. 

But let me say a little more about Buchanan. It is good reading, 

this report. I would like to incorporate this portion of it in my re.: marks and publish it in the RECORD. It ought to be published. The 

report says of this and Tygart's Valley River-I suppose you all know 

Tygart's Valley River-[laughter ]-the gentleman seems to have lately 

discovered the Buchanan and the Tygart's Valley Rivers up among 

the mountains. The report says! 

Both rivers are exclusively rafiing streams. 

And it 'is for one of these that $1,500 iS appropriated in this bill. 

The gentleman says his sense of propriety is shacked by an appropriation for the great cotton harbor on the great inland sea of America; 

but· he wants to give $1,500 for the improvement of a little logging 

stream. · 

Mr. HUNT. Will the gentleman state what percentage of the estimate that is? 

Mr. VAN EATON. I must decline to be interrupted. I am a, young man and a~ easily scared. [Laughter.] · ·Mr. Chain;nan, this remarkable Buchanan River that this committee wants to improve has a fall it appears of seven hundred feetWhichSays the reportis a.n average of more than nine feet to the mile. 

And in one place the fall is sheer twenty feet right straight down, 

and the ·trouble. is when they do manage to get their logs- there they 

wear out before they get through. That is the fact. [Laughter.] 

Now the engineer says further: 

th~~: s~~=: !~:r!~~:~~h! fs~~~r~~~~se:~~~~~!~t ~~ ~t!~~~ log jams, and thus facilitate the downward passage of- · 

Of what? Of ships, of steambOats, of barges? No, sirAnd thus fawilitat~ the downward passage of logs. 

[Laughter.] 

There it is. That is the engineer's report. It says further: 

In the present case I have t-o report that no survey is needed, as the prellml· 

nary exa.m.iha.tion has developed all of the essential facts. 

Indeed, all a man would have to do would be to go and survey that 

gorge by his eye. [Laughter.] It is only fifty-seven miles long. 

[1Iere the hammer fell.] 

:Mr. GIBSON rose. 

Mr. VAN EATON. I should. like to say just one word more. ~Ir. GIBSON. I move to strike out the last five words. 

Mr. V .AN E.A.TON. I desire to say just another word. 

• 
• 

1404 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

. Mr. GIBSON. I will yield to the gentleman if I shall-then have my House take a recess until tO o'clock the next morning, the ~ranee five minutes. was given by the chairman of .the committee having this bill in charge 

l!r. VAN EATON. !should liketohearthegel}tleman whose sense ,that before 12 o'clock next day should arrive he would -move that the 

of propriety is shocked by _appropriationS for harbors on the Mississippi House should adjourn, so that the ordinary business of the Ho:nse might . River -characterize in what he considers fit terms this appropriation for be carried on after 12o'clock. To-day, when the motion was made by 

Buchanan River. to facilitate the passage of logs. · . ' the same gentleman that a recess be taken untillO o'clock on Monday 

Jl,lr. GIBSON. In speAking on this bill on yesterday I said that. the next, he declined tO give any such assurance to the House; and I have 

expenditm·e Of money for -the purpose of improving landings on the learned that it is the purpose of the friends of this bill, or ·at least of 

]l,fississippi River was calculated. to shock the common sense of this gentlemen that are pressing it, that on Monday next, if the House meets 

country. I repeat that language now, and repeat it with reason for it. here in pursuance of the order for a recess, the House shall not adjourn, 

Not one solitary dollar of this mbney proposed f~r the purpose of, im- but shall go on with the consideration of this bill next morning. Now, 

proving what theycall these harbors is to be applied to giving one inch Mr. Chairman, I wish to remind gentl~men that we have three imporof water that any vess~l may float upon it, not ~ven that a iog may tant appropriation bills ready for consideration--

float upon it; but every dollar of it is to be used for the improvement Mr. WILLIS. l\Ir. Chairman, I rise to a question of order. 

oflevees and landings of parties engaged in trading in those towns. . Mr. VAN EATON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know on which 

Mr. REED, of Maine. Is that the case with the New Orleans ap- side ofmyamendment thegentleman from lliinois[lli. TowNSHEND] 

propriation? . · is speaking. [Laughter.] 

Mr. GIBSON. It is the case with every dollar of it. Not one dollar The CHAIRMAN._ The gentleman from Kentuck7 [Mr. WILI..IS] 

is·to be expended in digging out and deepening the channel. No ship Will state his point of order. · 

is able_ to float better by reason ofit. But it is tQ protecil the property Mr. WILLIS. M:y point of order is that the gentleman from llliof those who are enga-ged in trading on the banks of the river. I pro- nois [Mr. TOWN REND] is proceeding entirely against the rules· in the 

test against the use of the public money for that purpose; and I appeal remarks that he is making . 

to the common sense of this House and to the common sense of the The CHAIRMAN. The point of order is well taken. The gentlecountry to sustain me in that protest. . man from illinois [l\Ir. ToWN HEXD] will proceed in order. 

But the gentleman from Mississippi (Mr. VAN EATON] undertakes Mr. TOWNSHEND. I did not hear the ruling of the Chair. 

to criticise me very facetiously. That gentleman's record in this House The CHAIRMAN. ·· The Chair ruled-that the gentleman was proshows how much he is in favor of releasing the people froni public ceedi.Iig out of order. 

plunderers and from the burdens- imposed on them and of impro~ng Mr. TOWNSHEND. Well, Mr. CJmjrman, I have perhaps stated 

the facilities for commerce and the interchange of commodities between suffi.cient.facts as a· ba is for what further I have to say. I h.a>e re- the States. It is not for hini to criticiSe my actions or the actions of mirided the-House thatthcrearethreeappropriation bills pending. It- any other member of :this House who has sought to save the public is already known that next Monday the hill making approp_riation for 

property and r~tore it to those who own it. the postal service-- · But now as to West Virginia, and as to the gentleman's talk about Mr. WILLIS. Ur. Chairman, I again raise the point of order, and 

the Buchanan River, I have this w say-- I ask that the gentleman take bis seat until he can proceed in order. . Mr. VAN EATON. Perhaps the gentleman would like this engi- . The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. TOWNSHE..~D] 

neer's report_ to read from. [Laughter.] will proceed in order. • Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I have seen that report, and I am as wellac- Mr. TOWNSHlli~D. Then, l\Ir. Chairman, if I have not been in 

quainted with that as r ·am with the record in this House of the gen- 'order heretofore, I ma;ke the motion that this committee do now rise. 

tleman from Mi~issippi [Mr. VAN EATON]. Although he ~y be I make that motion with the view of making· a motion that when the 

"yoting " and "a new member," he has made a record, and I have . House adjourns to-day it adjourn until ~fonday at 12 o'clock. seen it. The motion being taken on the motion of 1\Ir. TOWNSHEND that the 

Now, as to the Buchanan River, I know nothing about that river; com;mittee rise, there were-ayes 52, noes· 98. 

I have no personal knowledge of it; it is not in my district, nor have Mr. TOWNSHEND. I call for tellers. 

I anyinterest in it. I onlyknowthat theEngineerCorpsofthe United A l\IE1\IBER. No quorum has voted. 

States Army, in charge of the commercial improvements of the rivers The CHAIRl\iAN. No quorum having voted--

and harbors of this country, came to this Congress with -a report Mr. SPRINGER. A quorum is not necessary on a motion that the 

strongly recommending that that rivet· be opened, so that, as the en.- committee·ri e, which is equivalent to the motion in the House to adgineers say, between fifty and one hundred million fee~ of oak timber, journ. _ . which is needed for ship-building along the Ohio and the Missouri and · -The CHAIRUAN. The question is on o1·dering tellers. . the Mississippi, can be gotten out, in order that the commerce \of the The question being taken, there were aye 32-less than one-fiil!li 

great ,West may float upon its timbers. . of a quorum. 

blr. HORR. Does the gentleman admit that that is the only com- The tellers were not ordered; and the motion that the committee merce of that riy~r-the floating down oflumber? rise was not agreed to. 

Mr. GIBSON. I declare to this committee that the only commerce The CHAIRMAN. The question now recurs up(>n the amendment 

that river has or can haveisthelettingoutofmillions and millions and presented by the-gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. VAN EATON]. 

millions of feet of timber which is required for tpe building of vessels Mr. VAN EATON. I withdraw the amendment for the present. 

to float upon the Western waters. The CHAIRMAN. The amendment of the gentleman from 1t!issisMr. VAN EATON. Then there will be lots of" log-rolling _" there. sippi being withdrawn, the Chair recognizeS the gentleman from In-

[Laughter.] · . diana [l\Ir. HOLliiAJ.~].- · 

Mr. GIB.' ON. Yes, sir; and you und~rstand "log-rolling, ' I sup- Mr. HOLMAN. 1 move to amend the pending paragraph by strikpose. . ing out "jurisdiction of the Mississippi River Commission" a.n<l inMr. V Al.~EATON. There is $275,400 worth of "log-rolling " in this serting "direction of the Secretary of War," so as to provide that this 

bill for the gentleman's State. · appropriation be expended under the direction of the Secretary of War 

1\Ir. GIBSON. Well, sir, that only shows how much inferior I am through the Government's Corps of Engineers. 

to the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. VAN EATo~]. If he had been llr. Chairman, up to a comparatively recent date, some five yeats 

there perhaps he would have had several millions. · ago, all the public works of the country have been under the supcrvisN ow, as to this stream, Buchanan River, I speak frankly, for I have ion of the War Department, contro1led and conducted by the Engineer no concealments to make. I based the recommendation for· that im- Corps of the Army; and there are many arguments in favor of the re- provement upoa the report of the engineers. Colonel Merrill, who is sumption and continuation of this policy, and of its application to the on the Ohio River, and who is the engineer in charge, without any re- Mississippi River and the various improvements connected with it. 

quest from me, without any knowledge on my part, recommended that ·I have not, I believe, beard any one call in question the integrity or this appropriation be made. · capacity of this body of trained public officers-the Engineer Corps of 

l\1r. HORR. Is there any appropriation made anywhere in this. bill the Army. In point of integrity and capacity they certainly equal any 

for improving a stream simply for the running of logs? ·body of engineers in civil life who can be employed by the Government 

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes; there are several such cases out West. in connection with its public works. The fact of their being trained 

Mr. HORR. There are none in ]l,fichigan. to this employment, and having no personal motives in connection with 

Jl,lr. SPRINGER. Yes. • the public work; having only the public interests in view, makes it in 

Mr .. HORR. Not a dollar for any such stream in Michi~n. my judgment a matter of the highest possible moment, in order to se1\Ir. SPRINGER. Black Lake, just above Grand Haven; there never cure public confidence in the a~ministration of your public works, that 

was any commerc& there but logs. the Engineer Corps of the Army, under its responsible chief, should 

Ur. TOWNSHEND: Mr. Chairman, this is the first time that I have be employed to direct and control them. Has anything in our history 

nsked the indulgence of the House to say anything in regard to.tJrls occurred to justify the belief that we can employ upon, work~ of this 

bill. I had made up my mind to vote against the bill, and therefore character any body of citizens more eminently qualified for these duties? 

had determined to content myselfwithmyvote as an expression of my Mr. WILLIS: ::Uy friend will allow me to say that this is not a new opinion in regard to it. But, ]1r. Chairman, I rise now for the,pur- departure. Theimprovementofthel\iississippihasalways been under 

pose of saying thls: The other day, when a motion was made that the . such direction as is proposed in t~e bill • 

• 
. 

. • . 

1885. - CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1405 

Mr. HOL:hiAN. I am, of course, aware of the fact that the improvements on th Mjssissippi River in recent years have been taken out of 

the regular order-not pla.ced in charge of a bocly of men who have for 

years enjoyed the public confidence, but in charge of gentlemen not 

connected as a body with any department of Government-gentlemen 

diftering wi.th an engineer officer who is prominently connected with 

them. Thus you have the spectacle of a regular engineer of your service advising against the plan of his colleagues on that commission. 

This commission stands by_ itself. . One of the members is a very respectable and intelli~ent lawyer of my State, who perhaps had no acquaintance with the Mississippi River until his recent appointmenta gentleman devoted. to his profession, knowing nothi~, I think, about 

engineering .or hydraulics, knowing nothing about public works-a 

man of ability and integrity, I have no doubt, but wholly unacquainted 

with the business of managing great public _works. Are you to displace competent and trained public officials who have been coni:lected 

with the Government works for years, under a responsible head, and put 

in their places lawyers whose education has no relation to public works? 

I think, sir, that these works should be restored to the conhrol of responsible officers of the GoYernment, to a responsible department, so 

that our people may have confidence in the capacity and integrity with 

which these public works are. conducted and confide_nce in the proper 

expenditure of their money. 

[Here the hammer fell.] . 

Mr. BLANCHARD. I regret, Mr. Chairman, that my friend from 

Indiann, [Ur. HOLMAN] is so badly informed on this subject. '.rhis 

work at the city of New Orleans is being done, and has been done for 

years, under the control of 1\Iajor Stickney, of the United States Corps 

of Engineers. He is the executiveofficerofthe:Miss~ippiRiverCommission, the bead of which is General Gillmore, of the Corps of Engineers. · Other members of that commission are General Comstock and 

Major Suter, of the Corps of Engineers. Another member is 1\Ir. 

Mitchell, of the Coast and Geodetic Survey. When th~ gentleman from 

Indiana speaks of the eminent lawyer from his own St'lte who is a member of that commission he refers to Mr. ·Robert-S. Taylor, who was a-p .. 

pointed, in pursuanceofthe requirement oflaw thatoneortwocivilian 

engineers be appointed and one person who was not an engineer. · 

So that this money which is to be expended :it New Orleans is to be 

expended under the direction of the Secretary of War, in accordance 

with plans,. specifications, and recommendations of the Mississippi RiYer 

Commission, just asitbasbeendonefor years. Now, I say, is there any 

more responsible body of men to which the expenditure of that money 

could be confided? In other words, the Secretary of War first., General 

Gillm01:e, Major Comstock, aml Major Suter, and then the executive officer in charge, being Major Stickney,of the Corps of Engineers. [Cries 

of " Vote!"] . Mr. HOLM AN. Will the gentleman allow me to make a suggestion? 

Mr. BLANCHARD. Yes, sir. 

The CH.A.IRU.AN. Debate on the present amendment is e:rhansted. 

Mr. REAG.A.N. Imoveto strike out the last word. If amended by 

striking out "unaer the discretion," in line· 205, and insert "according to the plan,'' then it would be .done according-to the plans of the 

Mississippi Commission, as the work is uow being done, the money being· expended under the direction of the Se~reta:ry of War. 

Mr. BLANCHAUD. I have no object_ion to that. 

Mr. HUNT. I have-no objection either. 

Mr. HOLUAN. That is not what I am aiming at. 

Mr. REAGAN. Then I desire ' to say this: I think the gentleman 

from Indiana is laboring under some mistak~. He agrees in improving_ that river. It has gone .on for some years on the idea that the improYement was to be made under the plans of the colll.IDi.8sion composed of officers of the Army and of the G:oodetic Survey and of ci vilians, but chiefly under the control of officers of the Army, while the 

plan is to be furnished by the commission. The expenditures are 

made under the direction of the Secretary of War. If the purpose is 

to take this from under the plan of the improvement of the Mississippi 

River as presented by the commission, then it seems to me' it would 

be a mistake, unless it has become the purpose to abolish that commission .and to abOlish the plan and fall back to where we were before, 

and that means no effort shall be made to improve the Mississippi 

River. . . [Here the hammer fell.] 

. 1\Ir. HOLMAN. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Texas [~Ir. REAGA.~] misapprehends me. But before referring to his observations I 

wish to say to the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. · BLANCHARD] that 

he, too, misapprehends me. What I am complaining of is the plan and 

method of the Mississippi River Commission. I bad the honor, as one of the members of the last House of Representatives and as a member 

of the committee of the House, to visit that river and the improvements 

in progress and examine the works at Plum l?Jtint, at Lake Providence, 

at Vicksburg, and wherever else tho...<:e works of the commission were 

then in progress. And w bat I o~ject to is the continuance of works on 

the present.pJan of the commission. It is the plan and method ofthe 

commission of which I am complaining. It is the absence ofresponsibility of which I complain. Millions have been expended with no sa.tiRfactot·y results up to this time, and yet no one can be Called to account. 

• 

There is no 1·esponsible bead to the body of citizens who were spending 

in their own way these millions annually. 

What have been the results of this system up to this time? Gentlemen, I presume, are aware that a very large percentage of your' expenditures on these works have been simply for repair of works only par-· 

tially completed, repairs from the beginning. The reports now lying 

before yon state the fact that, notwithstanding the work done to the 

extent of hundreds of thousands of dollars at, above, and below Plum 

Point, the pr~ent indication is -that " Plum Point " will soon become 

"Plum Island." The river, indifferent to these large expendihues, is 

working its way eastw~rd to a new channel. · 

Mr. DlJNN. Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? 

:M:r. HOLMAN. Certainly; a question. , Mr. DUNN. Does not the gentleman approve the plan of John Cowdin, who is neither an Army engineer, a civil engineer, a lawyer; nor 

a man of any responsibility. in any official sense? 

:Ur. HOLMAN. Thatis the gentleman's question. 

Mr. DUNN. Is it not true? 

Mr. HOLMAN. That is a prope1· question and I will answer it. 

1\Ir. DUNN. Is it not true? 

Mr. HOLMAN: I belieTe the outlet systemfortheprotectionoftbe 

valley of the Mississippi is the better and safer one1 and perhaps the 

only practicable one. You cl.osed up in part, by the expenditure of the 

public ll;lOney, Bonnet Carre crevasse aecording to the plan of the commission two years ago. What was the result? - Will the gentleman 

from Arkansas answer that question, if he pleases? Well, w bat was the 

result? A region of counb·y extending from the river to Lake Ponchartrain, which had been devastated for years by that crevasse, was notre: 

claimed, but the closing up of that crevasse in the. east bank of the river 

qy the expenditure in part of public money inured to the benefit of a 

railroad C<H"poration, and then a new crevasse soon occurred below in the 

west bank, and the waters of the Uississippi 1·nsbed over an extended 

. region of the-mostfertile p()rtions of that great Stat&ofLouisiana. Yes, 

sir; another creYasse·occurswhich takes the place of the one closed up 

by the commission and carrries desolation and ·ruin to a fertile -region of 

vast extent. My belief is, and it is a belief entertained by many intelligent engineers, that a properly adjusted and regulated outlet sy~tem 

is the only safety to the great valley of the Mississippi. 

:hlr. DUNN. I do not know of _an engineer in the world who approves it. · . 

Mr. IIOLl\IAN. But I do not at this time propose to discuss that 

question. It will co~e up later. For the present I only insist on 

placing public works under a responsible department. 

Mr. BRECK IN RIDGE. Will the gentleman yield to me?. 

Mr. HOLwiAN. Excuse m~. 

Ur. BUECKINRIDGE. Yon ask that the work should be placed 

under the control of responsible Government officers. 

The CHAIRMAN. 'l'he gentleman's time has expired. 

Mr. WILL IS. Let us have a vote. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. · I move to strike out the last three words, and 

I will detain the·committee but a moment. I do this for the purpose 

of saying simply that the statement of the gentleman from. Indiana that 

Bonnet Carre· crevasse was closed in the interest of n. railroad company 

is not in accordance with the.fu.cts. 

· Mr. HOLMAN. Just a ~ord now . . Let me ask the gentleman from 

Louisiana if there is not now a railroad const-i}lcted on the dik~ that 

was constructed across the. mouth of that outlet? Did not a railroad 

join with the Government in the furnishing and expenditure of the 

money for the construction and completion of the dike, and is not that 

dike to-day the track of a railroad, and was not the Government: funds 

expended on the clike that closed up the crevasse? I ask the gentle- man if that is not· true? · 

.Mr._BLANCHARD. I will ask the gentleman for his authority for 

that statement. · 

Mr. HOL~IAN. Why, it is a fact well known. It. is unquestionable. There is a gentleman on the other side of the Chamber within 

sound of my voice, if he will give me his attention, who knows this to 

be a fact. 

. l\Ir. BLANCHARD. I will say to the gentleman that we have no 

such information. 'Ve know nothing of any crevasse that was ever 

closed 1.mder the circumstances he ~ntions. On the contrary, I do 

know·that this Bonn~t Carre crevasse was closed in good faith by the 

commission, and wns put in good repair long before the railroad to 

which he refers was huilt. I withdraw the amendment. [Cries -of 

" Vote ! " " Vote ! "] 

Mr. HOLMAN. I move to strike out the last word. 

I 'vill inform my friend from Louisiana that his State and the railroad corporation in question and the commission each furnished a portion of the funds which built the dike across the mouth of the Bonnet 

Carre crevasse and· closed it up; and that the said d_ike is now a part 

of the road-bed of that railroad. 

Mr. IDSCOCK . . ·Let me ask the gentleman from Indiana a q~estion. 

Mr. HOL!IAN. Certainly. 

Mr. HISCOCK. Do we understand the gentleman to say that. the 

levee is now used by a railroad company, and that upon this -levee 

$150,000 is to be expended? 
1406 OONGRESSIONAt RECORD-B;OUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

• )fr. HOLMAN.. Oh, no, sir; I am speaking of outlet system and levee, and from being gradually washed away, itisnecessarytoprotect.the bank 

the closing of the Bonnet Carre crevasse above New 0Ileans, a ctev~ in this bendclosed up in. part by appropriations out of the public Treasury through ·The Carrollton bendthis commission joined with the State of Louisiana and a railroaq com- but the immediate importance of the work is small when compared with what 

pany, which company is now using this dike for a road-bed; and I it ~t Goldsborough. 

think the gentleman from New York isawareofthat fact and will bear There are two places, then, to be protectOO.-one at Goldsborough 

out tke statement. - bank and the other at the Carrollton bend-and the protection of both 

:M.r. BLANCHARD. Again I ask the gentleman for his authority. places is required for th~ security of one of tiM greatest harbors in 

?tir.- HOLMAN. The gentleman from NewYorkisawareofthefact. America, near the mouth of the Mississippi River, second in co~r-

:M.r. HISCOCK (from his seat). Yes, sir. cial importance only to the port of New York. 

?tir. HOLMAN. A portion of the railroad funds was applied to that :M.r. CUTCHEON. Will the gentleman allow me- subject, some money of the State -of Louisiana was applied tQ it, and a Mr. HUNT. Excuse me; my time is too short. In the report of 

part of the appropriations made by us for the improvement of the Mis- the engineers it•appears that the experiment for protecti~n is now g()-

sissippi wentintothatworJl, which I regret is now, orwasrecently, used ing on, and their estimate is for $683,000. This includestheii.plan of as a road-bed by. this railroad which engaged in its construction. And revetment. It includes a plan of improvement in accordance with the 

after the Bonnet Carre crevasse. was close4, as I have said, a crevasse recommendations, specifications, and plans of the River Commission, 

which had done but c.omparatively little damage, involving only a lim- of scientific, symmetrical, and of general application under correct su- ited region, another occurred a short distance below that point, in the perintendence. It requires, e~dently, proper liberty and discretion, 

western bank of the river, flooding one of the most fertile portions of and is an indispensable public harbor improvement in the strictest 

the State of Louisiana, of vast extent. · sense of the terms. 

I say, sir, therefore that so far as I am advised-'-and such was ce~- The opinion thatthediffusim:iofwaterswill increase and benefitnavitainly the opinion of other members of the committee sent by this gation is not considered a respectable opinion in modem engineering 

House during the last Congress to investigate the subject-a well- science, and the attempt, :M.r. Chairman, to prescribe limitations to the 

regulated system of outlets for the floods ·of that great rive],' is the only proper discretion of the scientific men connected with the civil service 

solution of the important question of reclaiming from the floods that and particularly with the engineering corps, such as will prevent this 

vast and fertile region. improvement at New Orleans from being carried out :in good faith, is 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. Let me ask the gentlemanfrem Indiana a the indulgence of a legislative liberty which, if successful, might re- question: Has my friend from Indiana at hand the opinion, or is he suit in the loss of interests of property and of commerce of the most a..ware of the fact, that any engineer of ability has indorsed that plan? general character and of the most important nature. 

?tir. HOLMAN. Yes, I think so; more than one; and yet at this (Here the hainmer feU.] · 

moment I do not recall them. Mr. HEPBURN These improvements are not on the east bank of 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. I should be glad to know who. the river, but they are at the town of Algiers; and the gentleman from 

?tir.' HOLMAN. I have not the name in my memory, but I think Louisianaisentirelymistaken, inmy judgment,whenheindulgesin the 

there are several could be named. • · affirmation at they are in any way connected with the commerce 9f 

.M:r. ·BRECKINRIDGE. The universal authority of -the .best engi- the .Mississippi River-- neers is against that plan as destructiv~ to the navigation of the Mis- !tfr. HUNT. I read what the engineer said. . 

sissippi River. . Mr. HEPBURN. Or with the safety of the vessels navigating the 

1\fr . . HOLMAN. I think not all, by any means. The gentlema_n is, river. I venture the statement that these improvements are solely or I think, mistaken in saying that this is the universal opinion. mainly for the protection of the individual property of resident living 

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE. I have never heard of but one engineer opposite the city of New Orleans. 

who indorsed a scintilla of any such doctrine. .Mr. HUNT. You are mistaken. It is not so. Mr. HOLMAN. The experience of many years in dealing with the Mr. HE,PBURN. I appeal from ' the inter~ted declaration of the 

river, in the judgment of many intelligent rivermen, has demonstrated gentleman to that better statement that I :find in the report of the Misthe soundness of the proposition. [Cries. of "Vote!" "Vote!"] sissippi River Commission. . 

The CHAIRMAN. Does· the gentleman withdraw the pro forma Mr. HUNT. What do you mean by "interested statement?" 

amendment? Mr. HEPBURN. I mean what I say, that you are interested as a :Mr. HOLMAN. I do. . Representative in securing this appropriation. 

Mr. LONG. I ask that the pending amendment be again reported. Mr. HUNT. Interested-how? 

The Clerk read as follows: 1\Ir. HEPBURN. As a Representative. 

In lines205 and 206strike out the-words "jurisdictionofthe:rtli~issippi River Mr. HUNT. Do you mean as a man of honor and public spirit? ·Commission" and insert" under the direction of the Secretary of War." Mr. HEPBURN. I mean as a man of the very highest honor. 

The question was taken; and on a division there were-ayes _71, noes 1\Ir. HUNT. Then I have no objections to your statement. 

60. . ·. :M.r. HEPBURN. 1t!r. Ch~man, let me call your attention to the 

?tir. BLANCHARD. I demand teller~ · [CriP.sof"No!" "No!"] langua_ge of this report in regard to the importance of protecting 

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman insist upon the demand? Goldsborough bank. That is a part of the harbor that, with Carrolll!fr. BLANCHARD . .. At the request of the chairman of the commit- ton bend, constitutes largely the harbor that is to be improved. The 

tee I withdraw the demand for tellers. engineer says: 

So (nO further CoUnt being demanded) the amendment W:l.S agreed to. IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING GOLDSBOROUGH BANK. 

Mr. HEPBURl'T. I desire to amend by inserting at the end of the From my report ofNovemberl9,1883, the valueofland and improvementain paragraph what I send to the desk. the Goldsb01·ough bend, which will be lost' in a few years if the ba.nk is not pro- The Clerk read as follows: ' tected, was estimated to be $1,400,000. But this does not represent the whole interest at stake. The river front here is being used for purposes of commerce and After the words "Secretary of War," in line 206, insert:· "Provided, That no navigation, and these interests suffer very much from the caving in of wharves, portion of said $150,000 ~hall be CXI?Cnded in the repair, erection, mainten~~e, railroad inclines, and depots. or pavinoo of levees, or m the grading or revetment of the banks of the 1\!J.Ssis- The commercial interest is much greater than the value of property already sippi River owned by privat.e parties or·municipalities." · · · located. there, and its valne can not bee timated. 

:M.r. THOMAS. I hope that will be accepted. coMPA:&xsoY. 

Mr. HUNT. I ask for the reading of the amendm~nt. The caving of bank. in Carrollton bend causes a veqr small loss of property • The amendment. was a,aain. reported. compared to what it does in Goldsborough bend. The co=ercial interests in 

The CHAIRMAN. noes th~ gentleman from Louisiana desire to be Carrollton bend are almost nothing, while in Gold borough bend th~y are very great and a.re rapidly increasing, and they make t be work of improvement more heard in opposition to the amendment? • difficult. In order to make the city of New Orleans secure from dangers of 

?tlr. HU!iT. I do, sir; I rise for that purpose. breaks in levee and from being gradually washed away it is necessary to pro- ~fr. Chairman, I consider it my dut.y to correct the misapprehensions teet the bank in Carrollton bend; but t·he immediate importance of the work is 

Whl.ch bave been expressed here re!!ardin!! this matter under debate. small compared to what it is at Goldsborough. ~ ~ Respectfully submitted. The $150,000 to be given is, strictly speaking, a harbor appropriation. 

A harbor is a place for the shelter of ships-a. port-and the $150,000 

proposed to be appropriated is to be expended for the necessary· protection and secnrity of the great harbor at New Orleans, the second 

harbor in importance in the United States. 

· Mr. Chairman, the engineer officer says in sp4-.aking oft_he'$1,400,000 

of property immediately involved: 

But this does not represent the whole interest at stake. The river front here is being·used for purposes-of commerce and navigation, and these interests suffer very much from the caving in of wharves, railroad-inclines, and depots. The commercial interest is much greater than the value of property already located 

there, and its value can not be estimated. 

This refers to the Goldsborough bank. Further on the same officer 

says: 

In order to make the city of New Orleans secure from danger of breaks in the 

W.G.PRIOE, 

United Slates bsistan' Engineer. 

It seems to me that that sustains the statement that this is not for 

the protection of the comm~rce of the country; that it. is not for the 

purpose of establishing a harbor where ships may ride in safety; but 

that thi~ money is to be expended where these individual interests 

are invest~d, where they are jeopardized, where there is a possibility 

of large pecuniary loss. And these gentlemen are seeking, undoubtedly in harmony with their ideas of propriety, the pl:Qtection of these 

private interests of their constituents with the money of the public, 

and that is what I propose to prevent, if I can, by asking the adoption 

of this nmendment. 

I desire also to incorporat-e with my remarks the following passage 

from the report of the Mississippi River Commission: 
. 

1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1407 

NEW ORLE.U."'B HARBOR. . 

At date of last ~port a mattress 400 feet in width was being laid in Carrollton 

bend. Owing to delays in receiving material the rising river forced a suspen- sion of operations when 470 feet of this mat had been completed and sunk, and 

the work has not been resumed,. owing to the more pressing necessity of pro- tecting the bank in Goldsborough bend. Here the protection will consist of a series of sloping submerged spurs, so designed and loca.t~d as to move t-he current of the river away from the bank to be protect~d. These spurs rest on a mattress 200 feet wide and 350 feet long laid on the bed of the river and normal to the bank, beginning at low-water mark. The spurs themselves are built up of timber cribs, filled with brush and loaded with stone. The width of the structure at the bottom is 60 feet, which diminishes by steps to 20 feet attbe top, the size and arrangement of the cribs being such that the top of the finished structure will have a slope of 1 vertical to 3 horizontal feet from low-water mark t.o the bed of the river. The distance apart of the spurs will vary .frqm 500 to 1,600 feetJ according to the curvature of the banks. One spur is now well under 

way, ana two more will probably be nearly completed with the funds now avaUable. 

The work is experimental, and its efficiency ·can only be determined after the 

subsidence of the next flood. The estimate for continuing this work and for 

completing the revetme.nt in Carrollton bend is $683;000. 

:Mr. BLANCHARD. I move to strike out-the last two words. I do so because I do not wish the statements of the gentleman from. Iow·a, 

[Mr. HEPn :RN] made, as I }-now they are, in good faith, to go unchallenged. The pmtleman spe:llis of this imp-rovement at Goldsborough 

and at Carrollton. Although th~ Villages are within the limits of the 

cityofNewOHeans I will sa.y, for my friend [Mr. HUNT], that they are 

outsillt>o of his district. 

Now, then, what we need at New Orleans is-I will be very frank 

with this committee-what we need there is not a deepening of the 

river, because the riveris already sufficiently deep; but there enteis in 

from tqe mouth of the l\:Ussissippi a vast amount of ocean shipping 

which finds its way to the wharves of New Orleans, extending four or five miles in length on both sides of the river, and is there moored for 

purposes of commerce. The city of New Orleans,· as gentlemen know, 

is situated in a bend of the Mississippi-hence its name of the " Crescent City.'' It is well known to every one who knows anything about 

the :Mississippi. River that at times aCl·es of land will fall jnto the stre:;un as a result of caving. . Within a short distance of. the ba of the river 

in New Orle::ms is located the eustom-:house of' the Government', ·which· cost, if I recollect right, about$2,000,000. Now, in order to prevent 

this. immense caving in of the banks on both sides of the river in a city 

of nearly 300,000 inhabitants, a city with the greatest amount of shipping of any in the United States except the city of New York, we ask 

that this $150,000 be appropriated to be qsed for the legitimat-e p~e 

of the preservation of the harbor of New Orle::ms. It is not to protect 

anybody's private property. It is just as legitimate, I submit in all 

candor, to expend money in preserving a harbor as in maintaining the 

depth of water in a harbor. Mr. Chairman, these works that are being con tructed at Goldsbowugh and at Carrollton, just at the upper edge 

of the city of New Orleans, are· for the purpose of preventing the cav- ing of the b.;.nk there and for the purpose of deflecting the current 

which, on its way down along the city front, where the shipping is 

moored, will cause caving and the destruetiou of the harbor. 

[Here the hammer fell.] . Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Chairll1.3.u, I would like to have the amendment 

reported. 

Th~ CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment. 

The Clerk read as follows : 

Add at the end of line 206 the following : "Prot:ided, That no portion of said $150,000 shall be expended in the repairing, erection, maintenance, or paving of levees, or in the grading- or revetment of 

the banks of the Mi issippi River o.wsed by private parties or muni~ipalities." 

:Mr. HISCOCK. I suggest to the. gentleman from Iowa [Mr. HEPBURN] that he add to his amendment the words, "or for the protection of private property." 

:Mr. HUNT. lletternot give the money at all. 

Mr. YOUNG. I would ask the gentleman whether he means this 

money to apply for the reclamation of overflowed lands or merely for 

the protection of cities? 

Mr. HEPBURN. I tnean just what the amendment says. I do not 

want the .money to be used for the construction, paving, or maintenance 

oflevees. · 

The question was taken on the atnendment of Mr. HEPBURN, and on a rising vote there were~ayes 61, nays 60. 

Mr. BLANCHARD. I demand tellers. 

l\fr. WILLIS. I hope my friend from Louisiana· will not do that. 

M:r. KING. Yes; let us have tellers. 

Tellers were ordered; and the chairman appointed l\fr. HEPBURN and 

1\lr. BLANCHARD. 

Pending the annotmcement of the vote, · 

l\fr. WHITE, of Kentucl..'Y. Mr. ChaJrmau, would it be in order 

that the committee do now rise? · The CHAilUIAN. It would not be in order. · 1\Ir. WHITE, of.Kcntucky (after a pause). Mr. Chairman, I ask for 

the reading of the rule which declares that when the House is left without a quorum there are but two things in order. 

The CHAIRMAN. It has ·not yet been ascertained whether there is 

a quorum or not. As soon as the Chair ascertains that fact he will act 

81Xordingly. 

The tellers reported-ay~ 53, noes 67. ~Ir. BUDD. ~o quorum. 

The CHAIRMAN. UndertherulesoftheHouse, itbeingascertained 

that there is no quorum voting, the Clerk will call the roll. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Pending that motion, ·r move that the 

committee do now rise. 

Mr. WILLIS. Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now rise. •, 

The CHAIRl\IAN. Thegentlema.nfromKentuckyon the right [Mr. 

WILLIS] moves that the committee do now rise. 

The motion waS .agreed to. . The committee accordingly rose; and Mr. BLACKBURN having re- sumed the chair as Speaker pro tempore, :Mr. HAMMOND repQrted that. the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union had, according to order, had under consideration the bill (H. R. 8130) making 

appropriations for the construction, repair, and preservation of· certain 

public works on rivers and harbors, and for other purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. 

ORDER. OF BUSINESS. 

1\Ir .. TOWNSHEND. Mr. Chair~an, I move that the House do now 

~oom. . 1\Ir. MILLS. I move that when the House adjourns to-day it adjourn to meet on Tuesd:)y next. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. If there be no objection; the Chair will 

submit certain personal requests. . Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I object. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the gentleman object to the sub· 

mission of personal req nests? · 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I object. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question is on the motion of the 

gentleman from Texas [ 1\lr. hbLLS J, that when the House adjourns t()-

day it a~journ to meet on Tuesday next. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. My motion has precedence. 

1\Ir. MILLS. It has not. 

1\Ir. SPRfNGER. I ask unanimous consent to present a report for 

the 8ake of ha..ving it printed and placed on the Calendar. 

There wa no objection.- · · 

ENROLLED biLL SIGNED. 

. Mr. YAPLE, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

the committee had examined and found truly enrolled a bill of the following title: when the Speaker pro tempore signed the same: . A bill (S. 1793) to amend section 4434 of title 52 of the Revised Statutes of the United States, concerning commerce,. navigation, attd the 

regulation of steam Ye e]s. 

Mr. REED, of Maine. Mr. Speaker, is that privileged? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is a matter of the highest privilege 

known to the rule . Mr. REED, of Maine. Against a motion to adjourn? 

The SPEAKER JJrO tempore. Against a motion to adjourn. 

ORDER OF BUSINE.':3S. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I call for the regular order. 

The SPE..'l.KER pro tempore. The gentleman1rom TtmLS (Mr. 1\fiLLs] moves that when this House adjourns it adjo'!ll'n to meet on Tuesday 

next. , . .Mr. TOWNSHEND. Does that motion take precedence of my motion that the Hou e do now adjourn? 

The SPEAKER pro templ)re. The Chair certainly thinks it does. 

The House must determine the time to which it will adjourn before it 

adjourns, and the rule so declares. The question is on the motion of 

the gentlema'n from Texas [Mr. MILLS]. 

Mr. WILLIS. 1\Ir. Speaker; pending that motion I ask unanimous 

consent (as it is ·evident that the remaining time will be consumed) 

that. the Honse now take a recess until10 o clock on ~Ionday next. · Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I object. I call for the regular order . . 

The SPEAKER pro te1npore. Objection is made, and the question is 

on the motion of the gentleman from Texas [Mr. MILLs], that when 

the House adjourns tb-day it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next. 

Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama: Mr. Speaker, has not the House determined to take a recess at 6 o'clock this evening? . The SPEAKER pro tempore. That is the order of the House. The 

motion is now made by the gentleman fi-om Texas [Mr. MILLS] that 

when the House adjourns to-day it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next. 

The question being taken on the motion of Mr. MILLS, there wereayes 14, no~ 66. ~ir. MILLS. I call for tellers. 

Several MEl\IDERS. No quorum has voted. . The SPEAKER pro tempo1·e. No quorum having voted, tellers are ordered; and the Chair appoints the gentleman from Kentucky, l\Ir. 

WHITE. and the gentleman from Texru:i, Mr. UILLS. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. This is no.t my motion. 

The ·sPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from illinois, l\Ir. 

TowKSHEND, will act as a teller with the gentletnan from Texas. 

The House-again divided; and the tellers reported ayes 2. 

The SPEAKER pro tempo-re (before the tellers had announced the 

negative vote). Pending the count by the tellel'S, the Chair asks unan- imous consent to submit several reports from the Committee on Enrolled 

Bills. 
1408 CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7' 

ElffiOLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

There being no objection, . l\Ir. PERKINS, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

ihe committee had examined and found truly enrolled bills of_ the following titles; when the Speaker pro te1npore signed the same: A bill (S. 475) granting arrears of pension to Emily .Agnel; · 

.A bill-(S. 1823) granting a pension to ~benezer K. Maroe:q.; and 

A bill (S. 750) granting a pension to Catharine Schools. 

1\Ir. NEECE, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

the committee had examined and· found truly enrolled a bill of. the 

following title; when the Spea,ker pro tempore signed the same: · 

' A bill (S. 646) for the relief of H. G. P. White, Peter·Hanger, and 

L. T. Green. . . · \ Mr. HOLl\IES~ from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that 

the committee. had examined and found truly enrolled a bill of the 

following title; when the Speaker JJro tentpare signed the same: · A bill (H. R. 7577) making appropriations fo:r the !>Upport of the 

Military .Acad~my for the fiscal year ending J nne 30, 1886. and ·for 

other purposes. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The hour of 6 o'clock h~ving arrived, 

the Honse now, in pursuance of its previous order, stands in recess until 

10. o'clock a. m. on Monday next. · 

, AFTER RECESS. 

The recess having ~xpired, the House at 10 o'clock a. m. (Monday, 

February 9) resumed its session, Mr. BLA.CKBUR~ in the chair as 

Speaker pro tempore. 

ORDER Oli' TIUSINESS. 

l\Ir. TOWNSHEND. I move that the Rouse do now resolve. itself 

into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, for the purpose 

of considering general appropriation bills. · Mr. WILLIS. Mr. Speaker, as the House is very well aware, the 

recess which bas just expired was taken for tlie purpose of res\l.ming 

thi,s morning the consideration of the river and harbor bill. If the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Tow~smi~D] wants to '-yaste public time, he 

bas it in his power to do so. If his motion is voted down, I shall ask 

the House to continue the consideration of the river and harbor bill, 

with the honest purpose of finishing it. \Ve have been delayed in the 

progress of this bill because of the want of a quorum. As the Speaker 

is wel•aware, a good part of this House has been eng-aged in Jl!aking 

up a Cabinet for the next President-and various members of the Committee on Appropriations, its chairman and several other members, have 

been included in tha.t-and anot.her portion of them have been engaged 

in festivities, and by their absence we have been frequently left without a quorum, and hence delay bas occurred in the progress of this bill. 

But as they are all here now, and as the Cabinet, I hope, is made up, 

and as I hope we are now ready for business, I trust this House will 

vote down the motion of the gentleman from illinois, and let us go on in good faith with this river and harbor bill. · . · Mr. TOWNSHEND. l\Ir. Speaker,·duriugthe wholeofthe time that 

the river and harbor bill has been under consideration I have up to Saturday last voted every time with the friends of the bill to facilitate its 

passage. On aturday I asked the chairman of the Committee on Rivers 

and Harbors to let the House understand that he would permit an adjournment to-day just before 12 o'clock, all the time till then being oc- cupied with this bill. nut the gentleman declined to give any such 

assurance. . Now, it was made known last week that the Committee on .Appropriations would not interfere during that week with this bill; but no- tice was given that they would tq·day seek the floor for the purpose of 

bringing up general appropriation bills. I 1ee1, Mr. Speaker--

Mr. WILLIS. I hope the gentleman--

:Mr. TOWNSHEND. I did ·not interrupt my friend. 

Mr. WILLIS. I just ask one moment.. It has been suggested to me 

that a remark I made just now in regard to the absence of members 

may be misconstrued, and I desire to withdraw it. · Mr. GIBSili~. And not have it appear in the RECORD. · 

Mr. WILLIS. Have it considered as ignored. 

:Mr .. TOWNSHEND. Now, I want t.o say to the gentleman from 

Kentucky I would be willing again to do all in my power to facilitate 

action on his bill as he knows I have heretofore done until Saturday 

last. But I feel, l\Ir. Speaker, that now the Committee on Rivers and 

Harbors should giYe way for the consideration of the general appropriation bills, which are now ready. The Post-Office appropriation bill 

ru:.d the Jegislati ve appropriation bill are ready. I would ask my friend 

to remember tbs.t when bis bill goes over to the Senate the Committee 

on Commerce will perhaps have no other bill to consider, whereas the 

Committee on Appropriations of the Senate will have to consider all . these appropriation bills, and certainly we should get them to the Senate as soon as possible. I feel that in order to avoid the danger of an. extra session we ought to take up these appropriation bills which are ready and get them out of the way, and in the intervals which may .occur between these bills the gentleman from Kentucky can proceed 

with the river and harbor bill. · 

Mr. HOLMAN. .Allow me just one word. Two of the general appropriation bills-the Post-Office bill and the legislative bill-are ready 

for consideration; and I do not believe that either of them will occupy 

the Honse more than. a few hours. I think the Post-Office bill can be . got through to-day and the legislative bill to-morrow; and then there 

will be no other general ;tppropriation bill ready for immediate consideration . 

The sundry civil bill will be the next, and I think the interval between the Post-Office and the legislative appropriation bill can be well 

devoted to finishing up the river and harbol' bill. Then we can take 

tip the sundry civil bill, and then the peril of unfortunate del..1.y will 

be avoided. 

:Mr. WILLIS: l desire to say this committee has· ill good faith, as 

I think the House will bear witness, been as expeditious as we could 

to dispose of this bill. We have already passed several points in the 

bill which have been objected to, and the committee has amendments 

to other points objected to which I think will be satisfactory to the 

House and the Committee of the Whole. The only questions that re- main riow are the readingofthe bill andgettingthrimgh with it. We ·are at the point of Galveston, and the committee has an amendment in 

1·egard to that which meets with the approbationofthe committee, and 

I think will meet with the approbation of every member of the House. 

I believe so; at least I hope so. It will, I think, too, give rise to no debate. 

Whe.ri the :Mississippi River is reached. I say· to the gentleman from 

In'dian::t, who is interested in that, the committee has an amendment 

eliminating Captain Eads from any control and limiting the expendi .. ture to the plan in the first and second :Mississippi River Cominission 

reports, which gets rid of the costly revetment system to which several 

gentlemen here are opposed. The committee have in good faith en- deavored to take out of the bill everything ·objectionable, and it now 

remains whether this costly plant of the Government scattered over the 

country shall be unused, at a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars, or whether ~ -,shalllll.J.ke· the ·neces3a,ry provision for the great rivers 

and harbors o the cou~try, which we can do in this session. The gen · tleman can make this issue at any time during the day if we p:lSS the 

hour of 12 o'clock,- and I submit in good faith, and as a matterof.good 

sense, if e pass 12o'clock to·day, the Dist.rict of Columbia Committee will have the day after 2 o'clock. The Journal will be read; the 

morning hour will taken p another hour; the call of GOmmittees, which 

you can not get rid of, will take up another hour; then the wrangle between these committees, if we huve a wrangle-the contest between 

them will take the day. . 

In the interest of the expedition of the public busfuess let us go on and . pass these two hours which the House by an overwhelming vote 

has ~:>et apart, as the gentleman knows, for the con~ideration of the river 

and harbor bill,· and not waste two hours now in fruitless contention; 

because we all understand we can easily tide over these two hours without any one being benefited by it. Let us go on in good faith and con-:-

sider the bill, and when we pass 12 o'clock let the gentleman from 

Illinois get up and move the committee rise for the purpose of Considering the Post-Office bill, and we will have an end of the contest, and we will have the benefit of the whole day instead of allowing it to be 

wasted in the cill of the States. • . 

1\Ir. HOLMAN. c~"n n·ot the gentleman consent before 12 o'clock 

is reached that the a{ljournment shall take plaee in the usual-way? , 

:Mr. WILLIS. Does not the gentleman know the motion I make is 

in the interest of saving time? If·you do get the ~oor :five minutes 

after 12 o'clock you can get up then, and if yon can get the majority 

of the House yon will have the benefit of the day. If we go on with 

the programme the gentleman suggests we will consume two hours; we will -only waste them. If we remain in session, what I mean is 

that when we pass 12 o'clock the gentleman from the .Appropriations 

Committee can make the motion, and if a majority of the House sus:. tains him, then they can go on with the Po.st-Office appropriation bill 

and save three hours. 

:Mr. HOLMAN. My friend from K~ntucky must see we can not pass 

12 o'clock without adjournment, or we will lose the day. 

lli. TOWNSHEND. I des4'e to say to the gentleman from Kentucky; 

if he will give m.e his attention, I most ear.t;~.estly desire he may use the 

two hours this morning in the consideration of his bill. If .I could get an assurance then the House would adjourn, and let the ordinary busi- ness of the House be proceeded with, I would take my seat. . Mr. WILLIS. ! will go further, to show my perfect good faith. 

This House knows, Mr. Speaker, that this is the District of Columbia 

Committee day, and that committee has no business to call up. The first 

busine.sS is the call of Statei for the formal introduction of bills' and 

joint resolutions; and no one will introduce bills or joint resolutions at 

this late day, as there can be no expectation of getting them through at 

this period of the session. To show my perfect good faith I will go 

further; I will say in response to the suggestion of the gentleman from 

illinois, and agree myself that the commi~ee shall rise and test the question. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Let the hour of 12 o'clock be passed even for one minute and there·Will be no session of Monday, and it will 

be the continuation of the legislative day of Saturday. 
1885. . OONGRESSIONAL RECORD.-HOUSE. ·1409 

Mr. BWUNT. I ask the gentleman from lllinois to yield to me. I do not belong to either of these committees that seek to bring before 

the Honse their respootiv.e measures. I have endeavored to facilitate 

the Committee on Commerce in every way I cou).d in consideration of 

the river and harbor bill. ·There.is no doubt about the fact we are un- certain as to whether or not all of these bitls can be passed before the 

4th of March. Whatever may be the opinion of several gentlemen com- posing these committees there is an nniestin my own mind aswellasin 

that of other gentlemen as to whethe~ they can be passed or not.-

It is a grave sitnat~on ~d we ought to proceed carefully in reference 

to it. The river and harbor bill is the only bill that the Senate Committee on Commerce will have to consider when it shall have reached 

them. The lmlk of the appropriation bills proper have not been passed 

by this Honse. When we shall have passed them they will, of course, 

go tO. the Senate and undergo the examination of the Senate committee, come back into the Senate, and each in its turn will have to go 

through the process of examination, consideration, and amendment in 

thatbody. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. May I interrupt my friend from Georgia. to say 

I am advised that the Senate Appropriation Committee has no bill. before it at all now? I understand they are all before theSenate, and that 

there is nothing, unless this bill shall ~e sent to them, for that committee to work. upon. 

Mr. RYAN. I beg to correct my friend from Illinois. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I am informed that they have no bill before 

them. 

Mr. RYAN. That is a mistake; there m·e bills pending now before 

that eommittee. 

Mr. TOWNSHE...~D. · What bills? 

Mr. BLOUNT. . It is not a matter of so much consequence whether 

they have bills now to consider or not; one thing is certain, they hnve 

bills before the Senate which they are bound to look after. If, however, 

that committee has bills before it, it is altogether likely that theyvrill 

soon be disposed of, and the committee will have to wai on ihe House. 

These bills ought to go to the Senate committee at once. Mr. Speaker, I have had some experience, I may be permitted to say, 

at the close of a session of COngress·as to the difficulties encountered by 

the Committee on ..Appropriations, and especially those who are placed on conference committees at such a time as this; and I do think in all 

that experience there has been nothing so straining 'to the. patience, 

time, and endurance of the individual members of this House as the 

overcrowding of work in conference committees at the close of the ses- ~~ . 

• The very Post-Office bill which we are now seeking to consider is an illustration. Having been a member of that committee I know that 

on one night the conferees were in session until after 1 o'clock in the 

ID«:!l'ning; and on another night, being the closing night of the session, 

they :were continually engaged until 4 o'clock in the morning endeav- o~ng to agree to a conference·1·eport. This ·applies to all the appropriation bills; and this will be the situation of the Appropriations 

Committee of the Senate when we come to the closing· hours of the 

session, while tl)e Committee on Commerce of the Senate will have 

nothing but this bill all the while to take up and consider. It seems to me it is a very easy matter for us to take up the river and-harbor 

bill in the intervals between the consideration of the othel,' appropriation bills and send them over to the Senate, so that that committee can have time t() consider and report them to the Senate "and bring the two 

Houses to a. vote on any questions of disagreement that may arise. 

I do trust, sii, that these annual appropriation bills, which can not 

fail without involving an extra session, will command the first consideration of this Honse. 

Mr. ·JilliMOND. Will my colleague from Georgiaallow me a question? · 

Mr. BLOUNT. Certainly. 

Mr. HAMMOND. The point as I understand it now is how to ayoid 

the ~our that is proVided for und~r the new rule for the consideration 

of business to which no objection is made, and also the call of States; 

and the Committee on ·ru vers and Harbors say that at a quarter past 12 o'cl~ they will allow the committee to rise and a test be made between the two bills pending at that time. Would it not then be a posiiive saving• of time to go on for two hoUIS and pass. over the Monday's 

session, by waiting until half past 12 o'clock, and then test the question in the House between the consideration of these two bills? - lli. BLOUNT. But the two committees of the Honse are not themselves agreed as to what is the best thing to be done; and in the midst 

of this and that suggestion we are likelyto succeed in accomplishing 

nothing, as in all probability the whole time will be wasted. No man can foresee the result. . Mr. HAM1t!OND. But the suggestion that has been made will cer- tainly accomplish the saving of the twohoUIS to which I have alluded, 

and in: that light is it not better than anything else that has been suggested? 

Mr. BURNES. Will my friend from Georgia.permit me to interrupt 

him for a correction? · ·· 

Mr. BLOUNT. Of comse, for a correction I will yield to the gentle- man. 

XVI-89 

Mr. BURNES. I understand the gentleman to say that the two 

committees were not agreetl as to the policy that should be pursued. 

The Committee on Appropnations is lmanimously agreed that at 12 

o'clQck. to-day this House shall adjomn and the Appropriations Committee shall have the floor, and that every effort shall be made for that 

purpose. The Appropriations Committee has no dissenting voice in it. 

We are perfectly unanimous that the best interests of the country and 

the best interest of legislation demand that the appropriation bills shall 

be proceed~d with after 12 o'clock to-day. · ·:Mr. BLOUNT. I do not lmderstand the gentleman to have made any 

correction of myremarks. On thecontrary, itismanifestfromhisown 

statement that the disagreement I alluded t() between the Committee on Rivers and Harbors and the Appropriations Committee does exist. The 

gentleman from Missouri announces that the Committee on Appropriations have ,agreed that they will entleavor to do a certain thing. That 

is bnt a committee composed of .fifteen members. It will be neces- sary tor the House to interpose to ae<;omplish what they desire and to 

determine for itself which of the two bills shall have precedence in the 

order of considerati<?n. I understand the gentleman from Dlinois [1rir. TowNs~END] toproposetothegentlemanfromKentncky [Mr. WILLIS) 

to ta.ke the two hours this morning for the consideration of the river and 

harbor bill, and after that to let the House go on with the consideration 

of the Post-Office appropriation bill, which the gentleman from Kentucky declines to do. On the contrary, be proposes to go on unti112 

o'clock perhaps, <?r until nearly 12 o'clock, or !believe his proposition is 

to go beyond 12, and then have a struggle .as. to which committee shall 

have recognition. . Mr. BROWN, of Pennsylvania. Which means an ail-day fight. 

M:r: BLOUNT. Which means, perhaps, as my friend from Pennsylvania suggest<>, an ali-day fight. And if the Committee ()n Rivers and 

Harbors can not agree to t.'l.ke the two hours which the .gentleman 

from illinois proposes to concede to them, I think the members of this 

House outside of those committees should decide which of them shall 

have its business considered. 

Ur. HEWITT, of Alabama. I ca.U for the regular order. 

The SPEAKER pro temp01:e. The regular order is rolled for. The 

question is on the motion of the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. TowNSHEND], which is that the Honse now·resolve itself into Committee of 

the Whole Honse on the state of the Union _for the purpose of considering general appropriation bills. . · 

The question being taken on the motion of Mr. TOWNSHEND, there 

were ayes 36. . Before·the negative vote was counted,. 

1\Ir. HOLMAN call~d for the yeas and nays. 

On the question of ordering the yeas and nays there were ayes 19. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The affirmative, in the judgment of 

the Chair, is not a sufficient number to order the yeas and nays. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Count the other side. 

. Mr. SPRINGER. I hope business will not be delayed by the ordering of the yeas· and nays. . · 

The negative vote being counted, there were noes 67_:._thea.ffirmative 

being more than one-fifth of the whole vote. ·Mr. SPRINGER. I call for tellers on ordering the yeas and nays. 

Tellers were ordered, 46 members voting therefor. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore appointed as tellers Mr. SPRINGER and 

Mr. TOWNSHEND.' 

The HoUse again divided; and the tellers reported-~yes21, noes 76. 

So (the affirmative being more than one-fifth of the whole vote) the 

yeas and nays were ordered. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question is on the motion of the 

gentleman from illinois [Mr. TOWNSHEND], whomoves that the Honse 

do now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole House on the state 

of the' Union for _the purpose of considering general appropriation bills. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas ·sa, nays·131, not 

voting 139; as follows: 

Beach, 

Blount, 

Boyle, 

Bl'ewer,J. H. 

Brown, W. W. 

Browne, T. M. 

Burnes, 

Campbell, J. E. Cannon, 

Cassidy, 

Cosgrove, 

Dockery, 

English, 

Ermentrout, 

Adams; G. E. 

Anderson, 

Atkinson, 

Bagley,· 

Ballentine, 

Barksdale, 

]Jayne 

Belford, . Bennett, 

Bisbee, 

Blackburn, 

Ferrell, 

Follett, 

Fyan, 

Hardy, 

Hiscock, 

Holman, 

Horr, 

Hutchins, 

Kelley, · Le·Fewe, 

Long, 

Lore, 

Lyman, 

Muldrow, 

Blanchard, 

Breckinridge, 

Brewer, F. B. 

Broadhead, 

Buchanan, 

Budd, 

Burlejgb, 

Cabell, 

Caldwell, 

C&ndler, 

·Carleton, 

YEA8-{)3. 

Mutch'ler, 

O'Neill, Charles 

Ranney, 

Reed,T;B. 

Rice, 

Ryan, 

Shively, 

Smith, H. Y Steele, 

Stewart, J. W. 

Stockslager, 

Stortn, 

Swope 

'Townsknd, 

NAYB-!W. 

Clardy, 

Converse, 

Cox,S.S. 

Crisp, . Culberson, D. B. • Culbertson,W.W. 

Cullen, 

Davidson 

Davis,G.R. 

. Davi's,L.H. 

Davis,R.T. 

Turner, Oscar 

Wadsworth, 

. Wait, - Warner, A. J. 

Washburn, 

White,J. D. 

White, Milo 

~~;; Winans, E. B. Yaple~ 

Dibrell, 

Dingley, 

Dorsheimer, 

Dowd, 

Dunham, 

Dunn, 

Eldredge, 

Ellis, 

Everba.rt, 

Forney, 

Funston, 
-

1410 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-_ HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

Gibson, 

Greenleaf, 

Guenther, 

Halsell, 

Hamm~d, 

Hancock, 

Hardeman, 

Hart, 

Hatch, H. H. 

Hatch, W.H. 

Haynes1 Hemphill, 

Henderson, D. B. 

Henderson,T.J. 

Hepburn, 

Herbert, · Hewitt, G. W. 

Houk,. Houseman, 

Hunt, Hurd, 

Je1fords, 

Johnson, Jones, J. H. Jones J. T. Kean, King, 

Lanham, Lewis, 

M~oid, 

·McMillin, 

Mills, 

Murphy, 

Neece, 

Nelson, 

Nutting, Oates, 

Ochiltree, 

O'Hara, 

Payne, 

Peel, 

Perkins, Peters 

Pettibone, 

~~<;d. Post, 

Price, Pryor, 

Pnsey, 

Reagan, Reese, Riggs, Robertson, 

Rogers, J. H . Rogers, W. F. Rosecrans, Rowell, 

Seymour, Slocum, Smalls, Snyder, Springer, 

Stevens, 

St~wart, Charles 

Strait, · 

NOT VOTING-139. 

Adams, J. J. Ellwood, Lamb, Aiken, Evans, Lawrence, Alexander, Fiedler, Libbey, Arnot, ' Findlay, L<Wering, Barbour, Finerty, Lowry, 

Barr, Foran, McAdoo, Belmont, Garrison, McComas, 

Bingham, Geddes, . McCormick, Bland, . George, Matson, 

Boutelle, Glascock, Maybury, Bowen, Go1f, Millard, Brainerd, Graves, Miller, J. F. 

Bratton, . Green, Miller, S. H . Breitung, Hanba~k:, 1\,tilliken, 

Brumm, Harmer, · Mitcltell, Buckner, . Henley, . Money, 

g:~i:H: r.~ ~itt, A.s. ~~:~t'te· Chalmers, Hitt, Morrison, Clay, Hoblitzell, Morse, 

Clements, Holmes, Moulton , Cobb, · Holton, Muller, Collins, Hooper, Murray, 

Connolly, Hopkins, Nicholls, 

Cook, Howey; 0' Ferrall, 

Covington, James, O'Neill, J. J. 

Cox, W.R.. Jones, B. W. Paige, Craig, Jones,J.K. Parker, Curtin, Jord~n. Patton, Cutcheon, Keifer, Payson, Dargan, Kellogg, Phelps, Denster, Ketcham, Potter, 

Dibble, Kleiner, Randall, Eaton, Lacey, . . Rankin, . Elliott, ~ird, Ray, G. W. 

So the motion was not agreed to. 

SumnerLC. A. 

Taylor, E. B. Taylor, J.D. Taylor, J. M. 

Thomas, Tillman, Tucker, 

Tu.x:ner, H . G. 

VanEaton, 

Wakefield, Wallace, Ward,. _ Warner, Rlch.ard 

Weaver, 

;~lfrsborn , 

W Usoit, James ' Wilson, W. L. Wise,G. D. 

York, . Young. 

Ray,Ossian 

Reid,J. w. 

Robinson, J. S. 

Robinson, W. E. ·Rockwell, 

Russell, 

Seney, .Shaw, 

Singleton, 

Skinner, C. R. 

Skinner, T. G. Smith, A. Herr Spooner, Spriggs, 

Stephenson, Stone, 

Skuble, 

Sumner, D. H. 

Talbott, 

Thompson, Throckmorton, Tully, 

Valentine, 

Van Alstyne, Vance, 

'Veller, Wemple, 

Williams, 

Winans, John 

Wise,J. S. Wolford, Wood, 

'Voodward, Worthington. 

Mr. McMILLIN. I ask unanimous con..~nt that the reading of the names be dispensed with. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I object. 

The Clerk read the names of members voting. 

The following pairs were announced: 

Mr. MORRISON with Mr. HOWEY, on all political questions, until 

further notice. · 

Mr. SHAw with Mr. LAIRD, until further notice. . 

Mr. JONES, of Arkansas, with Mr. KELLOGG, until further notice. 

Mr. GARRISON with Mr. BARR, until further p.otice. 

Mr. LoVERING with Mr. GEORGE, on this vote. Mr. MITCHELl:- with Mr. JAMES, on this vote. 

Mr. MURRAY with Mr. PHELPS, on this vo~. 

1\Ir. CooK with Mr. PAYSON, on this vote. 

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE with Mr. HOLMES, on this vote. Mr. THOMPSON with 1\Ir. ROCKWELL, on this vote. 

1\fr. SPRIGGS with Mr. SPOONER, on this vote. 

Mr. SINGLETON with Mr. STRUBLE, on this vote. 

1\lr. SENEY wi~h 1\Ir. RAYJ of New Hampshire, on this vote. Mr. O'NEILL, of Missouri, with· Mr. PARKER, on this vote. Mr. PAIGE with 1\fr. MILLER, of Pennsylvania, on this VQte~ 

Mr. MAYBURY with Mr. 1\!ILLARD, on this vote. 

1\Ir. LoWRY with Mr. 1\IcCoRMICK, on this vote. 

Mr. HILL with Mr. CUTOHEON, on this vote. 

Mr. HEWITT, ofNew York, with Mr. HANBAcK, on this vote. 

Mr. GEDDES with Mr. GOFF, on this vote. 

Mr .. FORAN with 1\Ir. ELLWOOD, on this vote. 

Mr. CLD!El'\TS with Mr. CRAIG, for this day. 

Mr. CAMPBELL, of New York, with Mr. CAMPBELL, of Pennsylvania, on this vote. _ Mr. AIKEN with Ur. Bn-.'GHAJ,\1, on this vote. 

Mr. McADoo with Mr. HARMER, on this vote. 

Mr. MULLER with Mr. LACEY, for the day. 

1\Ir. THROCKMOR-TON with Mr. McCOMAS, for the day. 

Mr. ADAMS, of New York, with Mr. LIBBEY, for the day. 

1\Ir. CLAY with Mr. STEPHENSON, on this vote. 

Mr. HoPKINS with Mr. BRUMM, on this vote. 

The result of the vote was then announced as above stated. 

Mr. WILLIS. ML Speaker, the House having declared by avo~ of 

three to one .that its order shall be respected, I now move that the 

Honse resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the 

Union: Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. 1\Ir. Speak~, I •rise to a question of 

order. 

The SPEAKER pro· tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I desire to ask if I have not misunderstood the Chair as deciding that if this debate should continue until one minute past 12, and the Hou8e should then adjourn, the effect 

would be to lose the session of Monday entirely. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not understaitd what 

decision the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] is attributing to 

the Chair. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I understood the Chair before the yeaand-nay vote was taken to say in answer to some gentleman upon the 

floor that if this debate should continue until one minute beyond 12 

o'clock Monday's session would be lost. · The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair so decided. 

Mr. WHITE, ofKentucky, Then, pending the motion of my coll&aon-ue [Mr. WILLIS] that the House now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union for the purpose of discussing 

the river and harbor bill, I move that the House adjollr'l, so that we 

shall not lose Mon<L"ty's session. 

1\fr. WILLIS. Is that in order, Mr. Speaker? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The motion of the gentleman from 

Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] is in order. 

1\fr. BLOUNT. Mr. Speaker, I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. If this motion to adjourn is voted down, w itl it be competent 

for the committee after 12 o'clock to rise and determine whether it will 

consider the Pos~Officeappropriation bill orthe river and harbor bill? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Most certainly it vill. The gentleman from Kentucky (Mr. WILLIS] moves that the ffouse do now re- SQlve itself into Committee of the Whole Honse on the state of the 

Union; pending which the gentleman from Kentu.~ky [Mr. WHITE] moves that the House do now adjourn. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Mr. Speaker--

The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. For what purpose does the gentleman 

rise? . -

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask if we can 

not rove the chairman of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors to 

agree-. . . The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair has no authority to answer 

as to an:y agreement. 

1\Ir. WILLIS. There is no agreement about it. 

1\Ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. I withdraw my motion. 

The SPEAKER 1Jro tempore. The gentleman from Kentucky (Mt. WHITE] withdraws his motion. The question is on the motion of the 

gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] that the House now resolve 

itselfinto Committee of the Whole Honse on the state ofthe Unjon. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The House accordingly resolved itself into Committee of the Whole 011 the state of the Union (?tir. IlAMM:OND in the chair), and resumed 

consideration of the bill (H. R. 8130) making appropriations for the 

construction, repair, and preservation of certain public works on rivers 

and harbors, and for other purposes. 

The CHAIRMAN. When the committee rose on Saturday the pending question was upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from 

Iowa [Mr. HEPBURN] and the Ho~~ was dividing by tellers. The 

gentleman from Iowa [Mr. HEPBURN] and the gentleman from Louisi- ana [Mr. BLANCHARD] will pleas~ resume their places as tellers, and 

the Clerk will report the pending amendment. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Aft~r line 20 insert: , "Pro~ided, That no portion of said $150,000 shall be expended in the repair, erec- tion, maintenance, or paving of levees, or in the grading or revetment of t h e banks of the l\1ississippi River owned by .,Private parties or municipalities." 

The committee divided; and the tellers reported-ayeS 60, ~oes 105. 

So the amendment was not agreed to. - · The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next paragraph ofthe 

bill. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Impt:oving Aransas Pass and Bay, Texas: Continuillg improvement, 8100,000. 

Mr. WHITE, ofKentucky. Mr. Chairman--

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky. ·The Clerk continued the reading, as follows: 

Improving Brazos Santiago, Texas: Continuing improvement, f25,000. Improving Passo Cavallo, Texas: Continuing improvement, $35,000. 

1\ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out the 

last word of the first pafaooraph read by the Clerk. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk has read two other paragraphs since 

that. - Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Yes; but he did so when I was trying 

to get the floor. _ The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman· from Kentucky (1\ir. WHITE] 

rose, and the Chair recognized him. He then entered into conversation 

with the gentleman on his right (Mr. JOSEPH D. TAYLOR], and the 

Clerk read on. 

, 
1885~ OONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1411 

Mr. WHITE, .of Kentucky. Which the Clerk had no right to do. precision we are told exactly which. of the sisterhood of States possesses 

Mr. JOSEPH D. TAYLOR. I offer an amendment, which I send to each of these great natural channels of transportation. 

the Clerk's desk to be read. · Imagine, Mr. Chairman, the irreparable loss to mankind if, as the 

The Clerk read as follows: grave and reverened signiors of this august committee were about to 

After Jine 212, insert the following; concentrate the power and ingenuity of their combined intellects to 

"Pr01lided, That no part of the money appropriated in this act shall be paid out ascertain the source and eourse of the Chillysquawky River, the clamfor the purposes herein named until such payments shall be app,roved by the orous demand of the gentleman from Saint Louis'' fora square divide'' 

Attomey-General of the United States as legal and constituHon~~oL ' Wat; to have thundered 1,1pon the declicately organized tympanums of 

Mr. JOSEPH D. TAYLOR addressed the committee. [See Appen.. their ears, or the irate gentleman from Wisconsin was to have flaunted 

di.i.] . the ''bloody shfrt '' beneath their classic proboscides. · Mr. POST, of Pennsylvania. I move to strikeout the last two words. I shudder, -sir, as I think of what might .have been the disastrous 

Mr. Chairman, reluctantly I rise to beg the indulgence of this com- results of so rude an interruption of the lucubrations of this noble band 

mittee. Not often have I claimed your attention; nor would I now of public benefactors. 

did not the dictates of ·humanity require that some voice be raised in Having defended the committee as best I could in a general way I 

behalf of the much-maligned Committee on Rivers and Harbors. For now desire to advert for a moment to a specific item in this bill. 

them there is no couch of down, but each insatiate suitor for the peo- .Many have been the expressions of surprise a.nd harsh have been the 

pie's coin upon their devoted heads pours forth the vials of his :wrath. criticisms because of the large appropriation recommended for t.he imFor days these gentlemen have been tortured ana tormented by their provement of Galveston harbor. Such strictures have been passed beassociates with a relish· and unction worthy of the cruelty inflicted by cause of ignorance as to the matchless splendor, the magnetic power, the 

Parrhasins, the; painter of Athens, upon tbe aged Olynthian captive. God-given advantages ove:r allothersofthe city of Galveston. I hold 

With attentive ears we have listened to their plaints. Analyzed, they .in my hand a map printed in the Galveston Daily News, which shows 

amount only to the conflicting claims of rival discoverers. ·The hith- beyond doubt that what Duluth was but a few years ago Galveston 

erto undiscovered l5eauties and great possibilities of certain regions of now is-the hub of the universe. 

our country as they are unfolded to us in the _!>rilliant rhapsodies ?f I confess, sir, that up to the moment that my desk was decorated with 

gentlemen upon this floor having pet schemes to foster at the pubhc this all-convincing map, a reference to which demonstrates conclusively 

expense are indeed most marvelous. By their fervid eloquen~e in de- that the Creator intended that this great country s~ould exist merely 

fense of the old flag and an appropriation, swamp lands and barren to pay tribute to the city of Galveston, I had entertained grave doubts 

deserts become fertile plains and blossom as the rose. as to the advisability of expending so much money in improving its . Shallow creeks and rivers whose elongated names are greater in ex- harbor. Until my eyes rested upon this unanswerable chart, with the 

tent, I ween, than the streams themselves.., are made to appear as vast utmost nonchalance I would have voted ruthlessly to have stricken out 

deeps upon, whose placid bosoms the commerce of the world might ride the appropriation asked for, and viewed, without a twinge of remorse, 

in majesty and still have.room for more. · · the lamentations of its bereaved SJ)Qnsors. . · Hamlets as yet unnamed ·upon the-:ma.ps flash upon the public notice But all is now changed. As I gaze upon this map, frescoed so artiswith meteoric brilliancy; pictured as the future gre!lt trade centers of tically, my soul is stirred to its deepes~ depths, and I am well-nigh perthe country by the lurid oratory ofthe Representative who seeks a nrod- suaded to tap the fountain of our nation's wealth ala the gentleman 

icum of the redundant revenues wherewith to render himselfmore solid from Colorado (Mr. BELFORD], and permit the g<;>lden stream to gush 

with his. confiding constituents. [Laughter and applause.] forth unchecked to aid in furnishing a vent for the commerce which 

Historical, geographical, and scientific societies are ever and 3J!On be- flows into Galveston with such ever-increasing force and volume. 

stowing medals upon indi'Viduals for discoveries considered to be of value Mark you, MF. Chairman, how monarch-like, gmnd, gloomy, and peto the human family. Banquets a:re given, laudatory resolutions are culiar sits this metropolis of the sunny South; the wate~ of the Gulf 

passed, in fact eloquence runs riot in honor of men who by research, coyly~eeping in gen~ew~vele~ t~ the s~ore, sin~g soft, sw~ts?ngs experiment, or exposure to the elements have added to the store of of adulation, and agam, With boiSterous billows p1ling mountam·hlgh, 

human knowledge. · rushing madly to be obsequiously prostrated at b.er feet, to bear the 

Sir, the title to this bill is a misnomer. Instead of being an ordi- story of the myriad crafts that~ upon Old Ocean, an~ whicp. seek in 

nary appropriation bill it is in reality a bill of discovery, and the paltry vain the honor of mooring at her wharves. Yet look again, and see 

sums recommended to be expended thereon are in the nature of an in- that as the earth revolves around the sun, so the whole of creation re- ducement from .some of these streams to remain with us all the year volves about this fa'Vored city and is but the halo which encircles the 

round rather than ascend heavenward in summer-time responsive to brow of the infinite. 

the blandishments of the sun's torrid heat. Tbjs map grows upon me at every glance. See how, far away upon 

I ask, Mr. Chairman, shall the Congress of the United States prove the golden shores of the Pacific, the peopleimpatientlongfor anoppornngrateful to those of its membership who have, as recorded in t4is tunity to shower in profusion into the lap of Galveston the wealth of 

bill, rivaled the achievements of the. most noted and eminent of the precious metals and semi-tropical luxuries of that remote region t 

discoverers ~hose names have been inscribed upon the roll of fame? Be Even the polygamous Mormons of Utah with feverish anxiety only 

it not so. Butratherletus pause and pay homage to the men who have desire the excuse of this appropriation when they, too, will render 

rescued from oblivion and eleva~· to dignity of great national water · generous tribute to this modern Tyre. · 

ways diminutive rivers, which appear positively for·the first time in Look whichever way you will, and there is visible a cord which binds 

this country, and for a limited season only (unless properly cared for, the whole human family in closest sympathy with the welfare of Galregardless of expense) in this wonderful · aggregation brought together veston. With such proof who can escape the conviction that upon the 

by the skill and untiring energy of our River and Harbor CommitWe. fate of this item hang the hopes, the fears, the happiness, and future 

I appeal, therefore, to the members of this Honse to deal more tenderly prosperity of millions of souls who breathlessly await the· action of this 

with these deserving statesmen. Cease, I pray you, to revile them, and House. Who knows but in the fate of tbis' item a1c:;o hangs trembling 

inveigh ilo more against their lack of capacity. in the balance the ultimate destiny of our nation. · Is there one among you who has done for his country, for the cause If what. is here delineated be true, in my mind's eye I seethe dread 

of education, for posterity, anything so commendable, so grand or pa- results of a failure to respond favorably to this demand. Methinks 

triotic, as to have disco~ered the absolute necessity to the perpetuity of even now I hear the wail of distress that will come up from Galveston; our institutions of improving the Withlacoochee River or the widening and which, according to the indications upon this map, will be echoed 

of W appoo Cut? If not, then hold your peace. aJorig the far western coast and re-echoed through the cavernous depths 

Why, sir, some of the less thoughtful of our members have stood of.the Yosemite. · 

upon this floor and with wild gesticulations and in stentorian tones Deny this boon and the winds, as they sway the forests of the great 

havecomplained because the membersofthiscommittee have held their Northwest will ~oan piteously over the sad fate of this stupendous 

sessions with closed doors and refused to be interrupted in their delib- project· the overflowing granaries of the Southwest will burst with 

erations by the murmurings of the common herd, who were actuated indlgn~tion, while the very heavens will frown with fiercest displeasonly by mercenary motives, and who, like my loquacious friend from ure. At least I should judge so according to the map. 

Saint Louis, sighed only for a fat slice of the "pork," as he heartlessly Mr. Chairman imagine the an~sh of soul I suffer with these condenominates this bill. victions pressing upon my conscience, these lofty thoughts agitating 

Is it· unnatural that a body of men bent upon such a tremendous my mind and these emotions welling up in my bosom, to think that 

mission should withdraw themselves temporarily from the world, from by my vote I can not assist in forwarding this humanitarian enterprise 

the rude jostling of hungry suitors, that the serenity of their minds because of a craven fear of being held to an account therefor by those 

might not be disturbed_ by the jargon of the rabble? whom I represent upon this floor. . . . · 

THEm LABORS ENDED. Recently in a formal manner they requested me to qmt public life 

Now be:q.old the glorious work which they have mought-a pam- after the 4th of 1\farch and return to their loving embrace, havirig 

phlet bearing richest evidence of most profound erudition. I beg you elected another whom they could better spare than me for ~his work. 

to note in particular how the minutest detail has not been ove-rlooked. They don't v.nderstand this matter.. They have not seen this map~ 

We are not left to conjecture where rQlls the Salkehatchie. or where. and in their benighted state, should I vote for this item, it might 

the limpid Tchifuncte winds its tortuous way, nor yet where the gur- da~pen the ardor of their love for me and throw a coldness over the 

gling waters of the Noxubee are wont to gurgle, but with conscientious meeting when I go home. (Laughter and applause.] 
1412 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-· HOUSE. 

Mr. WILLIS. I ask for a vote on this proposition. 

1\Ir. POST, of Pennsylvania. I withdraw the pro forma amendment. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I inove the following amendment. · The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving Vicksburg Harbor, under the direction of the Secretary of War, $250,000. . . 

1\fr. BARKSDALE. A great statesman, not a resident of. the Mississippi Valley, but of the Atlantic coast, in advocating the claims of 

the Mississippi River to protection by the General Government, properly denominated it as an inland sea. Vicksburg Harbor is third in 

importance to all others on the 1\lississippi lliver betw~en Cairq and its 

month. It has a commerce of $11,000,000. It is situated at the base 

of the Yazoo delta, embracing a region of two hundred and fifty miles· in length and seventy-five miles in width, unexampled for its fertility 

either in ·this country err any other on the face of th.e globe. It lies on the line of' two great transcontinental railways, one the most direct 

route from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and the other extending from 

Newport News to San Francisco by way ofLouisville, Memphis, Vicksburg, and New Orleans. · It is the entrep(it, or the trade center, of a large portion of the agricultural region of the ~orthwest. There mill-· 

ions of dollars' worth of products ~re received and distributed throughout the interior. Hence, Mr. Chairman, it is not a local improvement 

I am asking anappropriation for; it is topromotea commerce in which 

not less than two-thirds of the States are directly interested. 

Now, sir, I have no reproaches for the Committee on Rivers and 

Harbors. They have per1ormed their work faithfully. Within this 

short session it was literally impossible for.them to bear the argumE}nts 

of delegations from. t~e several States in advocacy of the various objects 

proposed for improvement, but they have been addressed in writing by 

members and others who have felt it their duty to be heard by the 

committee: An address, signed by the Senators and a portion of the 

Representatives from 1\Iississippi, presenting the claims of Vicksburg 

and other harbors of the }lississippi River within the limits of the 

State, ha.'3 been presented to the co-;nmittee, and, while its recommen- dations have not been accepted, there is reason to believe that it has 

been at least respectfully considered: From that port~ on of the addJ·ess 

which relates to the harbor of Vicksburg I will submit the following ·extract: 

. The recommendation for Vicksburg IIn.rbor is so insignificant in amount that we conclude that as to that necessary. even e~nt.ial improveme11t, the com- mission is unwilllng to undertake it \vithout the direction of Cong1'ess. And 

this surmise receives support from the published declarations of a.t least ono member of the commission. Certainly the commission do not mean to say that only $20,000 -is needell t-o resto•c a safe and convenient .. harbor for the city of Vicksburg, ns ~:very one at all conversant with the subject knows that the 8Uill recommended is wlwlly inadequate for that purpose. 'Ve infer that the 

commission means that they intend only to preserve the present status of that 

point by preventing a. further recession of the river from ro\i11g on the opposite bank. This means to abandon that important city, and to turn over the im- mense interests there to destruction. Again t this we most solemnly protest. 

The amount needed to restore that harbor, though very consider.1ble, is yet much 

smaller tha.n Congress has granted to harbors in other States. And there is 

nothing which can justify·this discrimination against Vicksburg and the State 

ofr.lississippi. The interests involved are not too insigniticant to de~and the 

favorable action of Congress or of your honorable body. These intere!lts arc not merely local, but are of great importance to the State, and in fact t-o a large 

section of the nlon. 

Vicksburg is the mot important point on the river (except Memphis and 

Natchez) between Saint Louis and New Orleans. It hus a. population of 15,000, 

which ould have been largely greater but for the ne~:lect -of the national au- thorities in restoring this harbor. The real estat-e in Vicksburg is now worth more than $4,000,000, and this is to be destroyed if the harbor is not restored. 

There are situated there two large compresses on which cotton is pressed for 

shipment to New England and Europe. There are several large wholesale - houses, as well ns a great number of retail establishments. The largest cot- ton-seed-oil mill in the world is also there, and another of considerable size. 

There are also three large foundries, an icc factory, and afurniture and general 

woodenware fact-ory. .Many large lumber mills, 'with planjng, turning, and 

grooving mills, and sash and blind fn.ctories attached. There are also situated 

there the la.rge workshops of the Vicksburg and ::\Ieridia.n Railroad, which 

has its wstern terminus there. Vicksburg is also the commercial terminus 

of the Vicksburg, Shreveport and Pacific Railroad, which ends on the western bank of the river, opposite the city, and is connected therewith by a steam ferry. The largest national cemetery (except one) in tho Union is situated 

there. It js th~ coaling station, as wellns the depot for ice and other supplies, of all the steAmers that ply on the Mississippi River, every one of whlch use the harbor in passing up and down the river. The Louisville, New Orleans 

and Texas Railroad, wh1ch connects New Orleans with Newport News, Va., passes through the city,a.nd there connects with the other railroads above men- tioned and witJi the Mississippi River. We have no specific statistics as to the commerce, but we can give some idea: of its magnitude now and its immense proportions in the near future, if Congress 

will only discharge its plain duty by rest.oring the harbor. 

The city is situated at (just below) the mouth of Yazoo Rinr, which with its· tributaries, the Tn.llahatchle, Coldwater, Yazoo Pas$, Ynllabusha, Rolling Fork, 

Sunflower, Deer Creek, Steele's Bayou, Silver Creek, Bear Creek, all navigable 

streams, tra.verse a. country than which there is no other on earth more fertile, or rioher in natural resources. It is the entra.nce to theY a.zoo delta and the door- way through which its productions, now already immense and soon, with the 

levees restored, to arise to enormous proPQrtions, go into the commerce of the 

world. Vicksburg is the home port of a large fleet of small steamers which navigate these streams, traversing and reaching every part of the great delta. It is 

the northern terminus of a line of steamers from New O,rleans, the inostmagnifi- _cent that ply on the 'Vestern wat~rs. It is alt;JO the home of a large number of steamers plying between Natchez and that point and the bends above and be- row, and IS the southern terminus of a tri-weekly line of stea~rs runnin~ be- tween that port and Saint Louis and all intervening points. By rail it has direct . connection with New Orleans, with Memphis, and all cities north-of it, and with- Meridian. and Jackson, both of which are railroad centers. · Arid at these points 

it gets connection with the whole Union. By the Mi85issippi River it gets the 

chea:{J freights of water transportation, and by the small rivers above mentioned 

and .Jts various railroad connections distributes these cheap rates throughout 

the State. By this connection with the great river the State has the regulating 

influence of that stream on freights. We do not go too far when we assert that if the harbor be restored, Vicksburg 

is destined soon t-o be one of the most important. cities in the Southwest, and if 

this be neglected, there will be a great retrogressjon and loss, and little chance 

of progress. · 

For these cogent reasons I appeal to the judgment of. Congress from 

the report of the Mississippi River C.ommission, and from the bill re- ported by the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, in behalf of this important harbor. Shall it be preserved to the commerce of the country, 

or shall i~ be doomed, by niggardly parsimony, to destruction? 

MESSAGE FRO::\! THE SENATE. 

The committee informally rose; and Mr. OATES took the chair as Speaker pro tem,Pore. . _ A message from the Senate, by ¥!'. McCooK, its Secretary, announced • that the Sen~te had passed the following bills, with amendments; in 

;which the concurrence of the House of Representatives was requested: 

A bill (H. R. 5800) for the· relief of Sarah B. Jackson; and 

A bill (H. R. 8039) making appropriations to provide for the expenses 

of the governmeut of the District ~f Columbia for the fiscal year ending June .30, 1886, and for other purposes. _ Also, that the Senate had passed a _bill of the following title, in which 

the concurrence of the House of Representatives wa.s requeJ;ted, namely: 

A bill (S. 1300) to authorize the President to restore Tenedore TenEyck 

to his for,mer rank in the Army, and to place him upon the retired-list 

of Army officers. . . The message further announced that the ~nate insists on its amendments dis:lgreetl to by tho House of Representatives to the bill (H. R. 

3258) to authorize the construc~ion of a bridge across the Saint Croix 

River at the must accessible point between Stillwater and Taylor's 

Falls, Uiun., and agreed to the conference asked by the House of Representatives on the uisagree\Pg votes oftbe two Houses thereon, and had 

appointed :Messrs. CO.NGER, McMILLAN, and VEST as conferees on the 

part of the Senate. · 

.AJso, that the Senate had agreed to the report of the committee of 

conference on the disagreein~ Yotes of the t~'O Ilonses on the amendments 

oftho Houseof Representative3 to the bill (8: 729) fortheprotectionof 

children in the District of Columbia, and for other·purposes. 

Also, that the President pro te1npore of the Senate ha.d appointed 

Messrs. HoAR and PE.NDLETO:Y tellers on the part of the Senate for the 

purpose of counting the votes for President and Vice-President. of the 

Unite<l States. · 

RIVER A.ND HARBOR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The Committee of the Whole resumed its session. 

Mr. KING. . Ur. Chairman, I move to strike out the la.st word. 

In . econding the amendment of the gentleman from Mississippi for 

this appropriation I desire to sa.y that I believe if tber~ is an amendment that could be ma 1c to this measure which would have intrinsic 

merit it is the amendrue:1t offered by the gentleman from Missi ippi, 

an<lnow pending before this committee. . The harbor of Vic;ksbmg is a clear and very distinct illustration of 

the harbors on the Mississippi River. It illustrates the factt.bat these 

harbors can be destroyed by tho cm~:ent of that stream. The Government bas been for ten or fifteen years past operating extensive works to 

maintain the harbor at Vicksl)urg. This bill has unfortunately left that 

harbor out and made no provision for it. Those works must suffer ·and 

that harbor must suffer still further from the neglect of CoDgress in 

making an appropriation for it. The works have already cost a large sum of money. If there is no provision now made for their continu- :mce and maintenance they must in a large degree perish. To com- plete them will require comparatively a small sum in addition to what 

ha.s been already expended, and if they are once finished they will be 

permanent in their character; and require but little expenditure in the 

way of repairs in future. 

1\ir. Chairman, the city of Vicksburg is not a mere way~point on that 

great river. It is the most important city between New Orleans and 

1\Iemphis. It is a point at which several important rn.ilroads converge. 

It is a point where one of the most important lines across the continent passes the river-the Southern Pacific road, as it used to be named, now the Vicksburg, Shreveport and Pacific Railroad-one of the important transcontinental lines. On the opposite side of the river there aro very important works being prosecuted·by the Mississippi River Commission for the improvement of the river itself. I only desire to add 

here, therefore, that if it be possible for the Committee on Rivers and 

Harbors to recon~ider their action on this point I trust they will do so, 

and allow the appropriation suggested by the gentleman from Mississippi, for the purpose indicated by him, to go into the bill. 

Jtfr. WILLIS. I call for a vote. 

M:r. JEFFORDS. Mr. Chairman-- . The CHAIRMAN. Debate has been exhausted on the pending amendment. · 

1\Ir. JEFFORDS. I move to strike out the la.st word . Mr. WILLIS. I appeal to the friends of this bill to let us get along as fast as we can. As business men I appeal to them. 
• 

<JONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE.- 1413 

Mr. JEFFOR;DS. Mr. Chairman, I am as earnestly: a friend of this 

river and harbor bill as the chairman Of this committee, and I ask to 

be hea.r<l for a few moments on this important measure. I have been 

endeavoring to be heard. Vicksburg is in mydistrict and, as I think 

this question is presented, I should have the privil~ge of being heard 

briefly upon the subject. 

Sir, I know that it is impossible for the committee to frame an ideal 

river and harbor bill. That can never be done until all the navigable 

waters of the United States are embraced in one bill and the amounts 

to be given for the improvement of the navigable waters of the United 

States .equitably distributed between aU localities. Then you will 

have an ideal river and harbor bill. 

I do not question the motives of the committee, nor do I rise for the 

purpose of arraigning them for the bill which they have rep<>rted. I 

do, however, disagree with the allotments and the apportionments that 

have been made under this bill. 

Some statements, sir, have been made here in the course of th!s debate 

which' if left unchallenged would create a false impression, and would establish a rule that would be detrimental to the interests of rivers and 

inland harbors. It has been asserted here that thffie harbors on the 

MisSissippi River are mere steamboat landings; that they are not harbors. Where is the authority for any such declaration as that? I grant 

you, si:r, that from the organization of the Government in-1783 down 

to 1851, when the decision in the Genesee Chief case was pronounced, 

the fresh-water rivers and lakes were not regarded as within the admiralty jurisdiction of the United St·ates; but since that decision every' 

square inch of navigable water belonging to the United States is subject tQ the admiralty jurisdiction of the United States and to the jurisdiction of Congress in making appropriations for the improvement of 

the rivers· and harbors of all our inland ~avigable waters. . Let me say to those gentlemen who reprffient the lakes· and the 

Western rivers that if this doctrine is to be established, that the landings or harbors, as they have alwaysbeen called, on theMississippi are not harbors and are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States 

simply because they are upon fresh water instead of the open sea, that 

will allow a precedent to be established which will strike down the 

improvement of the rivers and harbors on the lakes and the rivers. It 

would be a dangerous . thing to allow this thing to be done. 

So far as thisimprovementofthe Vicksburg Harbor is concerned there 

is an estimate. The Mississippi River Commission have estimated ~20,000for the improvement of Vicksburg HarbororDeU.aPoint, which 

is a part of the harbor. 

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Mississippi has 

expired. 

Mr. DINGLEY. I take the floor and yield my time to the gentle- man from Mi issippi. 

:Mr. WILLIS. I object. I again appe~ to the friends of this bill 

to let us go on. Mr. JEFFORDS. I can get in after a while, and the gentleman 

might as well let me finish now. · Mr. WILLIS. If the gentleman is a ·friend of this bill--

Mr. JEFFORDS. I am a ftiend of it. 

Mr. WILLIS. I know lie is. 

Mr. JEFFORDS. I am willing to do what I can to p~ the bill. 

Mr. WILLIS. It is be.cause the gentleman is a friend of the bill 

that I appeal to hi}n. . 

Mr. DINGLEY. I move to strilie ou.t the last word. I was recog· 

nized, as I understand, by the Chair. I yield my time to the gentle- man from Mississippi [1\lr. JEFFORDS]. 

TheCHAIRMAN. Thegentlemanfro:m.Mississippi[Mr. JEE'FORDS] 

is entitled to the floor and can not be taken off it. If the gentleman 

from Kentucky desires it the Chair will afterward recognize him for a motion that the committee rise for the purpose of limiting debate. 

Mr. JEFFORDS. I will say·to the chairman of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors that some of the friends of this bill insist it shall 

be amended. Instead of being an injury to the bill, it is a benefit to the 

bill tohave itsfriendsproposetoamendandperfectit. The committee 

ought to listen to their friends. .Ai; I said, I have no disposition to criticise their action, for I know that they have done the best that they 

possibly could, or what they thought or believed was for the best. 

I desire, Mr. Chairman, to know why.New Orleans was put in this 

bill, while Natchez, Vicksburg, Greenville, Memphis, Hickman, and 

Columbus are all left out? The gentlemen say because New Orleans 

is a seaport or something of that kind. The Mississippi River is navigable from the sea almost to its headwaters, and,if New Orleans is a harbor, then Natchez and Vicksburg and these otherpoints are harbors 

. also. Why this discrimination? 'Vhy has this historic and heroic city 

of Vicksburg been denied the pitiful sum of$20,000, which is included 

in the estimates made by the IDssissippi River Commission? I again 

ask why this discrimination against this spot? If ever a time comes when American valor is to be commemorated by a monument erected 

to t'Qe heroism of American soldiers, and by this I mean the soldiers of 

both sides, the fittest pla-ce in all this land for such a monument will 

be the city of Vicksburg. The river having left it some two iniles, this· city appeals to Congress, appeals to the nation to save her harbor. The 

Committee on Rivers and Harbors see fit to ignore that appeal and to 

refuse this small appropriation of $20,000 even, that is for the purpose 

of maintaining and p~g that harbor and holding the work already 

constructed by the Govemme:ut. · Mr. HENDERSON, of Iowa. May I ask the gentleman whether the 

Chief of Engineers has made a recommendation in :ta.vor of an appropriation? 

Mr. JEFFORDS. The :Mississippi River Commission does so. Itis 

in the report of the Chief of Engineers, which embraces the report of 

the Mississippi River Commission, and they recommend this as much as they have recommended any other matter that.is in the bill. They 

have recommended this appropriation of $20,000; and yet this city of 

such great historic renown is discriminated against in favor of the greater 

city of New Orleans. I trust the amendment of my colleague will be 

adopted. · [Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. JEFFORDS. I ask l~ve t:> extend my remarks as printed in 

the RECORD. 

There was no objection. 

Mr. JEFFORDS. 1\Ir. Chairman, it is well known that the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, on account, as they said, of the shortness of 

the session, declined to hear oral arguments from any one; but they cour- teously agreed to receive and consider arguments and memorials in writing. Availing ourselves of this permission, our Senators and the Reprffientatives more immediately representing the river districts submitted to the committee the following memorial, whichJ as it embodies more clearly than anything I can now say arguments in fav~r of appropriations for the benefit of these river harbors, I herewith submit as part of 

my remarks for the consideration of this committee and of the country: 

~ASBINGTON,JanuarylO,l~. 

To the honorable the CommUtee Olt Rivers and Harbors 

of the House of Representatives: 

GENTLEMEN: Returning you our thanks for the courtesy extended in the 

promise t.o receive any suggestions w~ :might see proper to submit in writing in relation to appropriations for rivers and harbors on the Mississippi River, we now proceed to submit this insufficient statement on that. subject. · \ . 'Ve regret t.bat the time of the committee will not allow of the delay neces- sary to enable us to get a copy of the last report of the Mississippi River Commission, now in the hands of the Printer. Not having seen that paper, we have no other information of the recommendations of the commission than short 

abstracts relating solely to the amounts estimated, such as have been published 

in the press. 'Ve learn in this way that the commission recommends r-o,ooo for the work on the Vicksburg Harbo1·, $186,000 for Greenville, and $700,000 for 

Natchez. ~ith the estimates for Natchez and Greenville we make no com- plaint, but jgin with the commi<;sion in their recommendation, and ask, for the reasons hereinafter t.o be stated, that these amounts be severally allotted to these 

harbol'S. 

The recommendation for Vicksburg Harbor is so insignificant in amount that we conclude that as to that necessary, even essential, improvement the com- mission is unwilling to undertake it without the direction of Congress. And 

this surmise receives support from the published declarations of at least one member or the commission. Certainly the commission do not mean to say that 

only $20,000 is needed to restore a safe and convenient harbor for the city ot' 

Vicksburg, as every one at all conversant with the subject knows that the sum recommended is wholly inadequate for that purpose. We infer that the com- mission means that they intend only to preserve the present status of that point by preventing a. further recession of the river from caving on the opposite bank. 

This means to abandon that important city, and to turn over the immense in· terests there to destruction. Against this we most solemnly protest. The amount needed to restore that harbor, though very considerable, is yet much 

smaller than Congress has granted to harbors in other States. And there is nothing which can justify this discrimination against. Vicksburg and the State of 

1\:l.ississippi. The interests inV"Olved are not too insignificant to demand the 

fa.>ora.ble action of Congress or of your honorable body. These interests are not merely local, but are of great importance to the State, and in fad to a large 

section of the Union. 

Vicksburg is the most important point on the river (except Memphis and 

Natchez) between Saint Louis and New Orleans. It has a. population of 15,000, 

which would have been largely greater but for the neglect of the national au- thorities in restoring this harbor. The real estate in Vicksburg is now worth more than $4,000,000 and this is to be destroyed if the harbor is not restored. 

There are situated there two large compresses, on which cotton is pressed for 

shipment to New England and Europe. There are several large wholesale 

houses, as well as a great pumber of ret.ail establishments. The largest cotton- seed:oil mill in the world is also there, and another of considerable size. There are also three large foundries, an ice factory, and a furniture and general wooden- ware factory; also many large lumber mills,., with planing, turning, and grooving 

mills, and sash and blind factories attachea. There a~e also situated there the 

large workshops of the Vicksburg and Meridian Railroad, which has its western terminus there. Vicksburg is also the commercial terminll! of the Vicksburg, 

Shreveport and Pacific Railroad, which ends on the western bank of the river op- posite the city, and is connected therewith by a steam-ferry, The largest na- tional cemetery (except one) in the Union is situated there. It is the coaling 

station, as well as the depot for ice and other supplies, of all the steamers that ply on .the Mississippi River, every one of which u ses the· harbor in passing up and 

down the river. The Louisville, New Orleans and Texas Railroad, which con- nects New Orleans with Newport News, Va ., passes thiough the city, and there connects with the other railroads above mentioned and with the Mississippi 

River. · I 

We have no specific statistics as to the commerce, but we can give some idea. 

of its magnitude now, and its immense proportions in the near future, if Con- gress will only discharge its plain duty by restoring the harbor. I 

The city is situated at (just below) the mouth of Yazoo River, which with its 

tributaries, theTalla.hatchie1. Coldwater, Yazoo Pass, Yallabusha, Rolling Fork, 

Sunflower, Deer Creek, Steere's Bayou, Silver Creek, Bear Creek, all navigable streams, traverse a country than which there is no other on earth more fertile or richer in natural resources. It is the entrance to the Yazoo delta. and the door- way through which its productions-now already immense, and soon, with the 

levees restored, to arise t<> enormous proportions-go into· the commerce of the 

world. Vicksburg is the home port of a largetleetofsma.ll steamers which navigate these streams, traversing and reaching every part of the great delta. It is 

the northern terminus of aline of steamers from New Orleans, the most mag- nificent that ply on the Western waters. It is also the home of a large number 

of steamers .Plying between Natchez and that point and the bends above and 

below, and 18 the southern terminus of a. tri-weekly line of steamers running be- tween that port and Saint Louis and all interveningpoints. Byra.ilithasdirect connections with New Orleans. with Memphis and all cities north of it, and with 

Meridian and Jackson, both of which are railroad centers. And at these point.1 
• 

1414 OONGRESSION AL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

it gets connection with the whole Union. By the Mississippi River it gets the 

cheap n·eights of water thl.nsportlition, and by the small riversaMve menttoned 

and its various railroad connections distributes these cheap rates throughout the 

State. By thia connection with the great river the State has the regulating influence of that stream on freights. We do not go too far when we assert that if the harbor be restored Vicksburg is destined soon to be one of the most important cities in the Southwest, and if 

this be neglected, there will be a great retrogression and loss- and little chance 

of progress. . . . . 'Ve desire here to call attentton to the neces It}' of Greenville for a specific 

allotment of the amount estimated by the commissiOn. Greenville is already a flouriphing and. important city. It is th;e county seat !>f the largest co!-ton-p:o- ducing county m the world. It has a railroad connectiOn by the Georgta Pacific 

for a considerable distance south, which road penetmtes the richest country in 

the Southwest. It has, by the same road, a connection east with the Sunflower 

River on which is situatea a large district of the richest lands in the Yazoo deltn.' • \Vhen this road is completed to Columbus, in Northeast Mississippi, it 

will have direct connection with Birmingham, Ala., and Atlanta, Ga., and 

all the roads coming to these important cities, besides cross connections with 

these great lines of roads running from the West to New Orleans, Mobile, and Texas. It also ha.'l connection by a branch with the New Orieans, Lo~e 

and Texas Railroad. 

A year ago Colonel Percy, a citizen of Mississippi, addressed this committee 

in behalf of the claims of Greenville, and introduced many interesting sta- tistics pertaining to the city. He also advanced arguments and reasons in favor 

of preserving the harbor. We understand these remain among the archives of 

the committee, and we ask that the committ~e will examine them again and give them the weight their importance demands. The harbor is now caving, and the 

very existence of the city is threatened. And here we may be permitt~d to add 

thatc Greenville is the only important town in the Yazoo delta, except Yazoo City, which is at the base of the hills. This della is, to the extent of three-fourths 

of the whole number, inhabited by the colored ra.~. The whites are few. The 

necessity of maintaining a town of considerable size, in which the whites predominate, in thiS district, is too obvious to need comment. We mention only that the conservative influence of the town in the past has been found of the 

greatest importance in preserving good order and safe local government in this 

district. . In connection with what we submit in relation to the Vicksburg and Greenville harbors we desire to add something in relation to the Yazoo del~. U will 

be remembered that Vicksburg is at the southern end of the delta, and is the 

natural water outlet of its productions, while Greenville is about the center of 

the delta; north and south, though on its western bonnd&rr. That both oCthese 

cities are destined soon to be of immense importance is endent. This del ttl. con- tains over 4,000,000 acres of the finest.land in the world. It is in the cent~r of the cotton belt; as you go north or south of it, the cold on the one haqd and the heat on the other renders cotton cultivation le8s successful. In this <lelta is found 

every favoring condition for the cultivation and production of this great staple, besides being well adapted to the production. of com, oats, potatoes, and other 

food. Thedelta. of theNile is less than 6,000,000 acres, and on its bosom were supported immense populations and the greatest cities of the world. The Yazoo delta is five-sixths as large as the Nile delta. It is equally as fertile. It is 

dominated a11d occupied by the most progressive race on earth. From its rich 

soil caa come and will come more cotton than is now produced in the whole 

Union. It will also be of longer staple and greater stre.ngth. It is now almost 

wholly undeveloped, not more than one-twelfth (if so much) of its area. being in 

cultivation. The le'vees have been built at great expense, and it may be considered that from now henceforth the delta will be exempt n·om destructive floods. As soon as it shall be ascertained and recognized that security from overftows 

is attained, there will be a speedy settlemep.t of the whole delta. This large population thus secured and their immense productions will depend upon two cities for commercial marts. It is impossible to be extravagant as to what Will be the outcome. . In addition, we desire to press a most important consideration on the com- mittee. This land has been so favored by nature for agri<:ulturelgiving such ease and freedom in rural work, and the consequent extreme facility for acqnir- ingiudependence by farming, and the obstacles there existing to successful man- ufacturing, such as want of coal and water powerJ will prevent the establish- ment of manufactures to'any large extent in this aelta. The great poplflation which· it will contain will be consumers of the products of the other sections ot the Union. They will continue to buy their horses, mules, meat, flour, lard, and 

other provisions and agricultural implements from the West; and their dry 

goods_, clothing, and other necessaries and their luxuries must come from the 

East. The whole or nearly the whole of their immense cotton production will 

be spent in interstate commerce, which, being free, will benefit both sides. This 

is the certain result in the near future. · In view of this, it would be the greatest of all follie» to refuse to improve these harbors, which are the means by which 

and through which this great commerce shall be-carried on. These two cities 

will grow to be of importance if Congress will only allow to them, as it allows to all other cities, that aid in the way of harbor improvements necessary for commerce. And, in relation to Vicksburg, we t:rust we will be pardoned for · adding that from its natural advantages it has been and still is the surest hope of the State for a. large commercial city. As yet the State is without one. Vicksburg is situa.t~d about midway between its northern and southern border. It 

has the water and railroad connections and the splendid country for support we have hereinbefore point-ed out. In view of these facts, a. failure to restore her 

harbor, the abandonment of her fortunesJ as seems to be proposed by the Mississippi River Commission, would be a fauu blow to the State. We can not think 

the committee will be a party to its infliction. 

The claim of Natchez is eqnally great. It is the oldest city in the State. It 

ha long been the seat of wep.lth and refinement. It is now and always has been· the cent~r of a flourishing commerce. It has recently become a considerable 

manufacturing point. It has taken a lead in an industry so necessary to the de- , ·elopment of the South. Already two large cotton mills are in operation. It has an extensive commerce with the back country :IJi Mississippi and on the 

banks of the river both above and below. It has also a large commerce west by a railroad running in that direction. It has connection by a railroad built 

mainly by its oW.n capital and that of the country through which it runs with 

.Jackson, which is a railroad center. Arrangements have been completed to make this road of standard gauge, and to extend it to Columbus, Miss. This 

extension, now certain to be made in a very short time, will connect Natchez 

wi.tp the prairie section of the State, a very large district, only surpassed in rich- ness by the Yazoo delta. We mhtht say more on this subject, but as the Mississippi River Commission, as we learn from the press, has recommended $700,000 

for this harbor, we deem it unnecessary. We msist earnestly that this sum be 

granted. If they should be longer delay the cost of the work will be augmented, 

and it may amount to a sum so great as to .,make it difficult to. obtain the proper 

appropriation from Congress. Maps and papers were laid before your com- mittee last session by .Judge Van Eaton, Representative of that district, showing 

great and immediate danger of the river so changing its course as utterly to ruin 

the harbor, and to which we now ask your attention. This danger is as immi- nent now as ever, in fact more so, but this is shown by what we hear is the ~ 

ommendation of the river commission asking as above $700,000 for Natchez 

Harbor. Since the war the citizens of Natchez have shown much commendable public spirit in the building of the railroad and cotton factories above re- ferred to. Also cotton-seed-oil mills, iron factories, and various other manufacturing interests. All of which, as well as the city, are likely to be utterly ruined 

unleu Congress 9ICta ve~;y speedily. 

We desire now to enter our most solemn protest against leaving the improve- ment of these three harbors to the sole discretion of the Mississippi River Commission. The harbors in other sections of the country are provided for spe- cifically by Congress, fixing the amount. which shall be given to each. There is no necessary connection between channel improvemenS& and the improvements of these harbors, so as to require that a gross sum shall be given for both harbor and river improvement, leaving it to the Mississippi River Commis ion to make the allotment of the separate shares of each. 

The commission makes its estimates yearly; Congress never grants but a small 

per centum of the amount. The commission finds it elf without the .necessary means tQ do the work needed. It is compelled to select the woik which it deems 

the most important. It basso happened that in making this selection it has failed to give a dollar to Natchez or Greenville, and also practically nothing to Vicksburg. Thus the interest 9f these cities of the State of Mi!!si.ssi ppi have been sacrificed. The insufficient sum granted for ehannel improvements has been eked out by taking what is due to these harbors. In this manner Mississippi's in- terests have been sacrificed to the interest of other sections. Her quota of the 

funds for harbor improvements has been taken for other purposes. · It is no answer to this just complaint to say that this is necessary to the harmony and symmetry of the system adopted for the improvement of the 1\Iississippi Riv~r. If 

that were ttne, then the system is unjust, and should be abandoned or modified. We ask no modification of the syst~m except that Co.ngress shall give 

enough to do the work of harbor and also channel improvement, and that it 

shall express its 'vill that the one shall not be sacrifl.ced to the other. 

We desire with the emphasis coming from a consciousness of past wrong done to our State and people to urge the committee to look into the matters of this commnni~tion, ~~ the dete~ion tc;> right the wrong perpetrated; to do 

equal and rmparttalJusticeto aUmterestsmvolved,and not to allowthemselve to be hampered and restrained by seeking a harmony and symmetry in systems 

of expe.nditure not needed for the perl'ection of the work to be accomplished, and unattainable but by the sacrifice of great interests, and which heretofore 

has only had the effect to impede and to bind aj ust exercise of river and harbor 

improvement in Mississippi in a narrow and inflexible technicality. \Ve ask 

that the sums respectively recommended by the commission for the harbors o! Greenville and Natchez be apecifically allotted to them in the bill which the 

committee shall frame, and in like manner that the sum ofS500,000 be allotted 

for the improvement of the harbor at Vicksburg. 

L. Q. C. LAMAR. 

.J. Z. GEORGE. 

E . .JEFFORDS. 

H.S. VANEATON. 

T, C. CATCffiNGS, M. 0. elect Third Dlltrict. H.D.MONEY. 

We of the :M:ississippi Valley believewehavejust cause to complain 

that whenever we have asked for appropriations we have been met as if we were mendicants seeking a clupity of the Government, when we are r~lly but demanding our just dues. 

It -perhaps is not generally known that the Government received a gross income of about $6,000,000for the yearending.Tune 301 1884, derived from steamboats and other vessels engaged in the carrying trade 

of the M~issippi and its navigable tributaries. This V88tsum.ismade 

up of steamboat fees, assessments on the tonnage of vessels, licenses to · 

capta-ins, pilots, and others connected with, or engaged in the trade ·and commerceo~ the rivers ofthegreatM~issippiValley. The gross sum thus. received, estimating the receipts at $6,000,000, for the past twenty 

years, would reach the enormous sum of $120,000,000. For the year 

ending .Tune 30, 1884, after paying all fees, salaries, and expenses, the 

GQvernment derived a net income of $1,513,713.99, and which for a period of twenty years, assuming this to be a fair average, would yield a net aggregate for that period of $30,27.4, 279.80. 

It does not seem to me 88 if we ought to be treated 88 beggars when we who contribute so much to the support of the Government ask tha a portion of what we contribute may be returned to us for the purpose 

of increasing our fadlities in conducting the commerce of this great .country. · Is it presumptuous for us to ask some aid from the Government in such a cause and in behalf of such interests?. Mr. Chairman, it is my conviction that of all appropriations for the 

improvement of the navigation of the M~issippi River one-third should 

be devoted to channel and harbor improvements and two-thirds to the 

erection and maintenance of levees. 

Channel improvements, in my opinion, should m.airily oousist in re- moving snags and obstructions. If levees are erected and maintained so as to confine the river at flood-tide within the banks of the levees, 

the river will.in the course of time change its habits and correct·most 

of its present eccentricities. This is the theory of the River Co:m.mission. It is evident to any fair-minded person that six of the seven river commissionem give the preference to the levees over any other 

method of improvement. They specially emphasize the advantages 

and benefits to be derived from the construction of levees. I call attention to t~e following extract taken from the report of the river 

commission, to be found on pages 13 to 20, inclusive, Executive Document No. 64, .second session Forty-eighth Congress: 

· LEVEES <(Urn OUTLETS, 

The difficulties of navigation- on the l'tlississippi River below the month of the 

Missouri at no time arises from want of volume. 

During the fiood sta.ges the supply is of course ample; and it is equally true that if the volume of discharge of even the lowest stages were constant, it would 

develop, in time, a sufficient channel for navigation. Where the increases of width and area of section have become so excessh·e as to have seriously impaired navigation, scour and fill are less the J:CSult of absolut-e velocity than of the rela:tive velocities in adjacent sections. In such case the narrow and deep parts have greater areas of section, and therefore lesser 

velocities in the lower stages; while the wider and bar-obstructed sections at that period have lesser areas and greater velocities. At higher stages this rel - tion is reversed. - An increment to the bars accompanies the flood because in the sections where 
1885. CONGRESSIONA~ RECORD-· .HOUSE. 1415. 

' they form there is greater a.rea. &nd less velocity tha.n in the pool sections above. 

This subject is di.scnssed by Mr. R. E. 1\Icl\Ia.th (Report Mississippi River Oommission, 1881, Appendix K, page 242). ' This condition is not-a necessary result of the flood in a regulated river, but 

rather of those irregularities of the. water way the correction of which consti- tutes an essential part of the plan of improvement projected by the commis.sion. 

With equal widths there should be no sucb interchanges of velocity at adjacent sections in high and low stages, and no differences of depth and area except at reversion points, where less resistance makes lesser sectional dimensions equally 

efficient. A certain msult of such uniformity of the elements of ar~ as has 

always been insisted on by the commission will be the correction of this local bar building by the flood. To this bar growth at high stages t.bere is a logical limit. When it has pro- gressed far enough to maintain, by contraction, the velocity of approach from 

above, it necessarily ceases. This is true as long as tl).e volume of discharge 

finds no other means of escape outside the bed of the stre&m. But when such 

opportunity is afforded, the bar growth is unchecked as long as a line of resist- ance is open through the outlet. In the case of a cut-oft' the entire river is deflected in the direction of the ivcreased slope through the new bed, and within a year or two the abandoned channel is entirely closed. ,. Now, "when we consider that the slope of the river along its proper course averages scarcely one-third foot t-o the mile, while the banks slope away from 

the river four t-o ten feet to the mile, it is easy to see t-o what an extent, during 

floods, the river is tempted t-.o change its course," and that in such proportion as this temptation prevails, an effect si.mila.r to that of a cut-oft' in building a bar across the depleted chimnel is produced. : . I· As the direction of the surface slope affects the direction of the thread of mo- tion of the stream t-o all depths, so in case of both cut-oft' and crevasse the stream is turned. involving a loss of power in the impact against the bank, continuity 

of motion is broken, velocity IS reduced, and a source of bar-formation is introduced. In the case of the erevasse, by the loss of volume loss of velocity and 

ultimately of section is also incurred. . . 1 All plans proposed for the improvement of the river have for a common aim 

the establishment of uniform conditions at the same stages. As these conditions are interdependent, the securing of any one will tend t() brin~ about the others. 

Thus uniform section will give uniform mean velocity, which m turn will induce 

irreater uniformity of channel depth at any given stage. · But, as an element of 

uniform section, the importance of uniform width by itself as a factor in pro- ducing uniform velocity is lessened so long as the escape of water from and re- turn to the river over banks varying twenty feet in height, as referred to the 

flood slope, allow inequality of flood velocity and depth as great as results from 

the present unequal widths. 

Variation of discharge, at the same flood stage, in aUernating parts of the river, 

from 1,000,000 to 1,600,000cubic feet per _second is as much an obstacle to stability 

of regimen as the existing difference of width; and improvement is only at- tainable by the control of both the area and <Uscnarge. · t Uniformity ofbank grade, therefore, as an element of uniformity of section 

and velocity and channel depths, 8.8Sllllles the same importance as uniformity of 

width, and should be extended and maintained over the entire length of the 

alluvial river. 

I The present grade of the banks with reference to its earlier and norm con- ditions is discussed in Appendix F, page 122, report Mississippi River Commission, 1881. The levees as heretofore built, or as now recommended, can not justly be considered as superimposed on, or added to, what would have been the ~nk height when carried unchect:ed to its natural limit; but as establishing, 

by artificial means, a grade which the river in the free exercise of its functions 

is ever seeking to attain, add to which, !Jnder normal conditions, it has approximated. . . 1 All observations bearing on this subject made by the commission sustain these 

views. In 1862 a break known as "Cubitt's Gap" occurred in the left. bank of 

lhe river, about four miles above the head of .the passest It rapidly enl1uged, witil its section wasabout34 per cent. that ofthe.ma.in river. The~ocality was surveyed in 1868, 1872, 1&15,1876, and 1871 by the United States Coast and Geodetic Survey. So we have a full physical history of the changes, which are thus stated by Mr. Marinden, assistant in charge of the surveys: 1 "A noticeable feature in front of the 1 gap,' and one which in a great measure must be traced to it as its cause, is the formation of a flat on the west bank, as shown by the deep contours-the 24-foot curve more especially. Starting at a point on the west shore 3,000 feet above the' ga.p,' where all the curves run par- allel to the shore~ and the 24-foot curve is two hundred and sixty feet from the 

3-footcurve, whicn I have taken 1.\8 the reference for convenience, being smoother 

than the shore-line, although running pa.rallel t-o it, the ~foot contour abruptly 

juts out towards the center of the river, till opposite the north point of the 'gap' 

it is eight hundreda.nd twentyfeetfrom the 3-foot curve; thenlf'ollowingdown- stream and opposite'the south point it is nine hundred and twenty feet; then 

after pa.88ing the opening of Cubitt's Gap it retreats toward the shore-line, so that about ~.000 feet below the south point it is seven hundred and sixty feet; 

4,000 feet below it is seven hundred and twenty feet oft', and 8,000 feet below the 

'gap' it is only five hundred feet off, notwithstanding the gradual expansion of 

the Mississippi, which at the upper limit is 3, 720 feet wide, and at the lower limit, 

8,000 feet below the 'gap,' it is 4,815 feet in width, as measured between the 3-foot curve of each bank. . : "From the south point for a distance of about 1,300 feet do·wn-stream the two surv-eys compared are one of 1866, and the other 1876, which give a mean shoaling of 1.6 feet in the ten years, or 0.16 foot per year. :: " From the above-mentioned li.mit,1,300 feet below the south' point of 'gap • t-o Cubitt's House, we have two surveys for comparison, one executed in 1866 by 

Assistant Gerdes, and the other by my party in1871,givingan interval of eleven years; over this space there has been a mean shoaling of 3.9 feet, or 0.39 foot per year. • "From Cu.bit.t's House to the head of the passes, including all the space now oovered by the works for the improvement of the channel~y into South Pass, we have· two surveys again ; one of 1866 by Assistant Gerdes, and one done un- der my direction in 1875 by Subassistant Braid. These surveys shpw a decrease ~depth. of _3.6 feet in nine years, or ·o.4 f<?ot each year. ·Where, however, the 

present Jettied channel into South Pass 1s located, there has been a decided 

deepening. " • ~ A subsequentsurvey, under the direction of the commission, indicates the con- tinued progress of this deterioration of the channel, which already threatens 

serious consequences to the maritime commerce of New Orleans. - The great loss. of section, extending many miles below .1\Ialone's, Riverton, 

Bolivar, and Mound Place, and consequent upon these crevasses in 1882; and 

also Qle enlargement of the low-water section below Bonnet Carre, caused by the closing of this crevasse ~n the sa.m.e yeariwere fully descriqe.d in the last 

annual report of the com.miSSion (1883, page 6, and Appendix D, part (, page 171). . 

~ That such results are not ouly local-butcumulative-throughout long reachesis also indicated by observations. ·The gauge records of flood heights and the 

knowledge of facts connected with them are not extended or complete enough to possess full authority. But if l!rlemphis and N atchezare respectively selected as locations characteristic of unleveed and leveed fronts, and the existing record at each point divided into t.wo parts covering equal time periods and the means compared, it shows that the tloods along the unleveed fronts have become greater· during the latter half of the time covered by the record, while for the same rela· 

tive time along leveed fronts they have been less. As there is no doubt of the 

increase, during this time, of one factor of sectional area-width-any tendency 

to great.er flood heights along unleveed frontsmeansamore than proportionat-E; 

decrease of the depth. The reverse ()f this is the apparent inference along the 

leveed fro11t. ·These two points, MemphiS and Natchez, have been selected as fairly repre- sentative, having the longest records (57 and 82 years, respectively), and being 

least affected by conditions not unde-r consideration. An examination ot the adjacent gauge records does not conflict with the inference drawn from thosa 

cited. . · 

Again, the greater oscillation between high and low water at the.mouth of the 

tril;mta.ries than at intermediate points has long been observed, n is presented 

here in tabulated form for the gauge stations at the mouths, and one intermediately located. It is represented graphically for all gauge stations in Plate No.I. 

Location. 

?.lean of Extreme. last five years. 

Cairo, mouth of Ohio ....••.•.................................................... Fulton, intermediate .................................................••......... Helena\ mouth ofSaintFrancis ...................••....................... 

:~~~e~~ru:e~~-~~·:::::.·:::::.·::::::·.:·.::~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 

Lake Providence, intermediate .....•........ ·-···························· Vicksburg, mouth of Yazoo ...............................•...•............... Natchez, intermediate ........................... _, .........•................... 

Mouth Red River .............. v···················· ···················-············ 

53.17 

34.55 

47.20 

34.05 

48.40 

40.90 

51.10 

50.30 

48;50 

43.48 

30.13 

38.57 

33.91 

40.06 

32.91 

39.85 

38.ot 

39.39 

These differences of relative level have generally been attributed to abnormal 

local flood elevations, cau~d by increase of volume Itt the·mouths of the tributaries. The reverse of this is the truth. The difference is in the extreme fall 

and not in the extreme rise at these points. Tlie bed of the river has adjusted itself to the annually recurring demands of the discharge by increasing its depth where they are greatest and diminishing it where the discharge is dissipated 

by snccessive outlets. . ' 

It will be noted that, while by far the greater part of" this difference of oscn: lation is in the depression of low water, yet there is some trace of abnormal 

tlood-heightr. As the average considered includes three of the greatest floods on record, this would partially disappear were the term ofyea.rs extended. 

As the low-water surface closely conforms to the controlling bars, it seems obvious that any such general elevation or convexity of bed as is found between 

the tributaries must make ·these bats more J?rominent and obstructive to navi 

gation. Between the Yazoo and the Red R1vers where levees have been coin 

paratively well maintained. giving uniformity of bank-height and discharge, this irregularity of low-water slope does not recur, and the navigation is. three or four feet better. ' 1 

Since such levees as have been built have never restrained the higher ftoodi 

in safet.y t it can not be expected that the "closing of existing gaps" will suffice to restram volumes greater than those which have heretofore overwhelmed 

them; or to fairly test the principles upon which the recommendation of levee• 

by the commission is based. They must be higher, stronger, and more con; tinuous than they have heretofore been built. · ~ 

The grade of levees for the improvement of navigation should be at least thi 

normal height of the bank of the river or the height t-o which the bank would 

be built by such floods as recur with sufficient frequency to ex:ert an apprecl&bl~ 

influence in bank building or enlargement of water way. This grade IS appro:rl 

mately indicated by points on or near the margin of the river, well above gen" eral overflow, where deposit has been carried to a natural limit, unchecked hi, 

swifl; currents, and undi!!:turbed by caving. This grade should besupplemente<! by such additional height as. will protect it against frequent injury and destrnc 

tion. · · · --. 

Preparations must also be made in the grade for such increase of flood elev~ 

tion as win at first and during the period of readjustment ensue from the intro-, 

duction of greater·volume between levees when made more continuous. It is not possible t-o predict· at present to what this will amount, and it is probable 

t~t~ ~~!:ri~~~~~~=I~~o~?;, ~;~~ii:n!'~o ~~f!e:sc:; r~u~ additt®J 

investigation and study. This is now being given. Numerous observed fac~ 

indicat~ that gauge heights for great discharge can not be predicted by ext~nd! 

ing the curves construct~d at low and medium f!ta.ges with these elements as coortl:::~r the dis~harge curves of the observations of 1881-'82 and other y~iS show great irregularities in this respect. 

The high-water curve plotted on Plate I is of remarkable symmetry, while the 

b!1lkes in the low-water curve, to which the profile of the bed conforms, are greater and more abrupt. The imprint of the flood's power is on the bottom 

and not on the surface. The slope has proved more inflexible than the bed~ 

The capacity of the river has increased as the discharge. :- This indicates that increment of volume will not be piled on top of the pres: ent flood heights, and that flood slopes can not be changed over long distances 

from 25 to 75 per cent. The material of the bed does' not possess stability under 

the fractional resistance such increased slopes would indicate. Indeed, which tho impossibility of maintaining a slope greater than the average is indicated in the 

promptness with which slope is readjusted at every cut-oft', where within a feW4 

hours the process of distribution is evident for yery long distances, both abov_o.. andbelow. . It is believed, to the contrary, that if an increase of .50 to .75 of the discharge can be arbitrarily and repeatedly withdrawn from and reinjected into the bed 

·with very slight slope disturbance, it can be retained throughout the entire course of the river, and .that even the maximum present discharge, by careful · and judicious engineering, can be yet further safely increased, without ulti.:. 

mately raising the flood plane. Thefollowiugta.bulated extractfrom PlateNo.Icompares high and lowwater 

slopes between the tributaries and a single intermediate station: 

Location. 

Cairo to Fulton. ............................................. : ..............•.....•..•... Fulton to Heleb.a ...................................................................... . Helena to ?!!alone's, ................................................................. . Malone's to White River ........................................................... . White River to Lake Providen~ ............................................ . Lake Providence to Vicksburg .............................................. . Vicksburg to Natchez ..............•......• _ ...................................... . Natchez to Red River .............................................................. . 

Slopes per mil~ 

High I Low wa~r. water~ 

.435 

.426 

.400 

.327_ 

.:m 

.276 

.291 

.194. 

:= 302 

.490 

.278 

,398 

:ill 

• 
. 1416' CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

It is assumed that no argument is here needed to attest the practicability of a and strengthened to restrain and apply effectively such power as resides in the 

levee system. It is thoroughly established by a large experience that faithfully mass of water now necessarily discharging and to be discharged between them 

constructed levees, of sufficient proportions and age enough to have settled and before greater servitude is imposed, otherwiSe the treatment of the river bebecome sod-covered, will resist any pressure . . Of one hundre!l and forty-nine comes merely local. of partial measures inconsistent with a general plan and 

breaks in the Yazoo front in 1882, one hundred and forty-seven were caused by general improvement. Such a plan must protect any and all parts of the river water running over the levees and eroding the rear slope. Caving of banks against the direct consequences of its application to other pa.rtshyprovidingfor destroys far more than all other causes combined; but such loss ·will be reduced the safe conduct to the Gulf of a. more rapid discharge of the volume flowing as caving is prevented, and permanence of bank will make the maintenance of from above. 

levees of inconsiderable col'it. Therefore, it is the opinion of the commission that the building of levees for 

'Vc therefore 9onclude that levees,. such as have been herein· described, are, the improvement of navigation in the obstructed portion of the river can not in connection with an equalization of width and the prevention of caving, an proceed indefinitely without involving damages to the proprietary interests 

important part of any general and systematic plan for the improvement of the below; and if tllis portion of the improvement to navigation is to proceed, pro- navigation and the prevention of destructive floods; and we do recommend the vision must be made for strengthening anti raio;ing the levees in the lower por- eoustruction of new and raising of existing levees along all parts of the river tion of the river where navigation is now good. · where the hlghlands are too remote to check the passage of large volumes of This recommendation is not based on conditions which will be continually flood water outside the bed of the ri>er; 6r, in other words, on the entire right increasing or even permanent. No reason is apparent why the law t.hata lar~er 

and also on the left bank below Baton Rouge, and from the Yazoo River t-o .volume of water flows through a bed adjustable by its own forces to its own Horn Lake, below l\Iemphis. ·needs, with le s resistance and slope, should not ultimately be fully operative As this recommendation extends to levees- below Red River, where excellent here. · • facilities for navigation now exist, special reasons therefor seem necessary. It During the transition period .unquestionably the increase of work will be inis net important here t-o repeat at length the principles on which are formed the lis~icahetded. by il!crease of slope, which will disappear as the equilibrium is re-estabregimen of a river so strictly alluvial as the Lower 1\Iississippi. It has already been stated in the discussions of the commission that :the dimensions of the The following general order is believed to be judicious in the completion of a river are of its own creation; that a larger volume collected in one bed is dis- levee system. .As its object is generally to enlarge the water way, a common- charged with less friction, other things .betng equal, and therefor~ith less sense analogy is found in the. homely art of ditching. It should begin at the 

lope, and more beneficent results to navigation and riparian interests; while lower end, Each bottom, the lUanchac, La F.ou;rche, and Atchafalaya, constitutsubdivision of volume, on the cont1·ary, meets proportionately more resistance ing Lower Louisiana, "the Tensas, Yazoo, White, and Saint Francis, should be inin each minor channel, and therefore requires more slope. closed in order from below upward. It follows from this law that every step in the improvement of the river, in- In each bottom1 as it is reached in the foregoing order, the most important cludingitsdelt..<\, whlch begiusatthejunctionofthel\lississippiandAtchafalaya, levees, as restrairung the greatest eScape of water, should be first constructed. 

should be in the direction of the assembling of its many outlets int-o one chan- 'ir·. Ch.,;.,.man, sooner or later the Government of the United States nel, while subdivision iu J?&SSes or dispersion through crevasses is a grave error. n ~ 

Be 1des these general reasons, there are others, local in character but of-great will be compelled, for the protection of ilc; citizens and their property, to 

importance, whlch will appear on examination of the physical condition of this assume control of the Mississippi River with a view to securing the region why the work of Improvement should include this part of the river. As has just been said, the point where the A tchafalaya. diverges from the Mis- alluvial districts from inundations and the great loss of life and destrucsissippi is the true head of the delta, of which the Mississippi, A.tchafa.laya1 and tion of property which have been of such frequent occurrence in recent lA 1<'ourche are the only remaining passes or natural outlets. The capacity of years. discharge of neither of these channels is normally equal to that or· the river 

above, just as in the subdelta neither the South not: Southwest Passes or Pass a The magnitude and importance of this subject have been so well and 

l'Outre has th.e capacity of the river above their joint bead. But it is known often stated, that it is useless to reiternte them at this time. 

that the l\lississipp~ n.nd Atchafalaya together can not now discharge the vol- Nothing less than the adoption and inauguration of a national levee ume of a great flood without disastrous overflow in the region they traverse. Thus, in 1882, the total flood discharge from the drainage basin above the bead system under the direction of the Federal Government will satisfy the 

of the delta reached 2,200,000 cubic. fee~ per second, divided approximately as pu"Qlic demand. There will be ceaseless agitation on this subject until 

follow ~ -DoJVD the Mississippi, 1,450,000; through the TensasBasin as overflow, the Government does its duty by its citizens. It has been, and is now, 500,000; and down the Red and Black Rivers, 250,000 cubic feet per second. Of 

this, 1,595,000 escaped 'down the 1\Iississippi below Red River, and 281,000 down and will continue to be for all time to come a national necessity. The 

the Atchafalaya. The balance of 3?4000 cubic feet per second entered neither farmers ·of the North and West and the manufacturers of the North and 

stream, but escaped broadcast to the u-ulf over the country. E~~find th t l:~-bl 1~ ts fi th d t f th · f: d · The redistribution of a similar flood discharge, as effected by the compl~tion <110u emos pro~ emarl\.e or e pro uc sO eu arms an -of the levees above Red River, would be 1,950,000 from the Mississippi and factories in the lower valley of the Mississippi. One-half of the settled 

250,000from the Red and Black. portion of the national domain and one-half of the population of. the . Under the circumstances, one of two results is inevitable, and either would entire nation is embraced within what is termed the Mississippi Valley. necessitate precautionary work. 

In .the first case the volume discharging dow-n the l\lississippi below·Red River Whatever benefits this half of our common country will inure to the 

would be. largely increased. This would. require the tempm:ary raising and 'welfare and prosperity of the other. All that vast area of territory lying 

strengthening ofthe levees on thatpartoftheriver. Intheothercasethewater between the Alleghenies on the east and the Rocky Mountains on the w~icll now escapes in floods through crevasses in the Tensa.s front and re- turns iri: part to the l\Iississippi through Old River would reverse this move- wes;t is directly interested in this question. The.States of Minnesota, ment.if kept in the Mississippi, and would seek the lower levels of the Red and Wisconsin, Iowa, Ininois, Indiana, lt!ichigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and TenAtchafalaya through Old River with such force o.s not only to arrest the filling n d 1 · ter ted · th · t• f ti 11 which now annually occurs in tbj.s channel, but also t-o deepen it and connect nessee are a.u as eep Y 1D es lD e 1nangura lOll 0 a, na ona evee the deep water in the Mississippi with that in the Atchafalaya. This must be ·system as are Arkansas, Mississippi, and Louisiana. 

f~!'T:~ a~:S~n~azards oy work preceding the e:x_:clusion of flood water from The Senators and Representatives of these States can -compel approThe-se discharges of the Mississippi and .A.tchafalaya (tespectively 1,595,

000 priations to bulld our levees, if properly united. There is no longer any 

and 281,000 cubic feetrper se<X>nd) are maintained for but a very short "distance question or doubt as to t4e constitutional power on the partof.the Govfrom the junction. Their capacity is rapidly reduced ·as 'they descend by re- ernment to make the necessary appropriations. There may be a few 

peated 1~ ot'volume o>er insufficient fevees . . Thus, while the l\lississippi has hoary Bourbons of antediluvian times who look owlish and drawl about. a capacity at the gauge just below the mouth of Red River of about 1,500,000 cubic feet per second, at Carrollton, just above New Orleans, it does not exceed constitutional doubts, but no man abreast of the progress of the age J ,000,000, as e tablished by the following gaugings and computations: any longer doubts the power of Congress on this subject. We all nn-

• Ouhicfeet. derstand this to be ":l. Government of the people, by the people, for 

1851, Humphreys and Abbot .................................................................. 1,152,000 the people.l' Let it be in practice what it professes to be in theory. 1858, Humphreys and Abbot .................................... : .......•..................... 1, 188,000 

18&>, Mississippi River Commission........................................................ 987,000 The Cqngress of the United Sta.tes should ~ive the people what they 

1881, l\I!ss~ss~pp~ R~ver Commi.ss~on ..................... :.................................. 792,000 need, and if it does not do this then the people will be to blame it 

1882, 1\I!ss~!PP~ R.tver Comm.lSS_lOn....................................................... 921•000 1-they do not elect· Senators and Representatives who will. With the 

1883• !\lls 1s lppt Rwer CommiSSJon ................................ , ....................... 1• o;9, 000 Representatives of the lower valley let this question be paramount to 

The surplus power of theflowing·water is wasted over andthrougbleveesnot 11 th · This has b "th l"fi d d th ti eufficientingradeorstrengthtoconvertitintowork. Theyofferlessresistance a 0 eriSSues. ecomeWl usa 1e-an- ea ques·Oll. 

than the bed of the stream. Thus, in 1884, the discharge at Red Ri>er gauge was Local county or State aid will no longer suffice. 

upWI\rd of 1,400,000, aud at Carrollton about1,000,000 cubic feet per second, while Both before and since the civil war very large sums of money have 

between were the following cre'\"asses: · been expended bythelocal authorities. · The State and county systems Ouhicfut. 

1\Iorganza ................................ : ............................................... : .................. 211,000 have been thoroughly and honestly tried by means of lorol taxa~on. waterloo ... ······-····················································:.................................... 46, ooo Local taxation has had the test of a hundred years. It has always failed 

~~7l:y;~::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::·:.·.:::·.:::::::·::.:::::::::::::·::.:::·:.:::::·:::.::::·.:·::::.:::::::::: ~:;~ ~~t !f=~~::~~~r~~~:~=~ t~et~~j~~~es:ftt.nint~e;~~ i!: 

Da>is ................................. , ................. ········································ ·················· 140•000 years, and it is within the vivid recollection of all that whole counties 

Total ..................................................................... , .................................... 414,000 and districts of country have repeatedly been submerged, by which 

Similar breaks occur whenever the discharge pastRedRivergauge largely ex- hundreds a:q.d t.housandsoflives have been lost and millions upon millceeds 1,000,000 cubic feet per second. It is literally true that these levees are ions of property destroyed; and to-day a large majority of the people 

awash in e\-ery flood of mag·nitude for hundreds of miles. For long distances of seventeen S4.-tes and three Tem"ton·es d.omand that the National the waves from storms and steamboats overrun them, and a continual outflow ~ " 

is only prevented in many .Places by boards set on edge and sand bags. It- is, Government shall grant them relief against the angry floods of the 

therefore, impossible safely to increase the slope even by a few inches in three ltlississippi River. There should be no further temporizing with this hundred miles, and without this the velocity oon not be increa-sed nor the resist- ance diminished_ • question. The Federal Government alone can furnish adequate aid 

The mere introduction of additional volume into the upper end of a channel and afford permanent and certain relief. · is not a practical eompijance with the principles underlying the plan of the This· t·· liti 1 t• · •t ti a1· th 1 t d commission. The condition of affairs just described has been substantially un- IS no ·a po ca ques Ion, nor IS 1 sec on m e eas egree. 

changed for upward of fifty years-since the extension of levees np to Red I sincerely trust that neither politics nor sectionalism will carry any 

River-and yet the volume discharged past that point, and recurring appro:rl- weight in this.discussion. The riparian States-the States bordering 

· mately with every flood, has not wrought out for itself belowi in these many on the MisSISS. ippl· River-have neither the power nor the pecuni<>l"V years, a sufficient water way. It has run vagrant over tbe fie ds, rather than ~J 

work. Therestraintandconcentrationofthe presentsupplyofenergylogically ability to deal satisfactorily with this great question. This is not a, 

precedes its increase. Without this, additional volume only means waste of State river; it is a, United States nver, and the United States GovernpoWbtl:t~:::f1:~~~t:t::~~~tlet, natural or artificiSJ, should be promptly ment alone possesses the means and ·the power to afford full relief and 

and finally arrested, the levees from Red Riverdownshouldbesufficientlyraised protection. No other nation in existence, or which has ever existed, 
1885~ CONGRESSIONAL ·REeORD-HOUSE. ·1417 

bas ever been so remiss in its duties tQward its citizens where interests 

of such magnitude have been involved. No other great nation of either 

ancient or modem times has 'ever shown such apathy in relation to a subject of such paramount interest to so large a portion of its population. • . Of. the ancients the Egyptians were among the most advanced and 

enlightened. No higher evidence is afforded of the civilization and development of ancient Egypt than her improvement and control of the 

river Nile, in the interests of her people. · In Egypt proper we are told that it never rains. And y~t Egyp~ is 

traversed by the Nile, and yet again the valley of the Lower Nile was subject to periodical :floods and inundations until a general system of 

levees and reservoirs was established and maintained thousands of 

years ago. We are told constantly that the :Mississippi, said to be very 

similar in many of its characteristics to the Nile, can not be controlled, 

and that all money spent in its improvement will be thrown away. 

Shall it be said that what Egypt could do thousands of years ago, 

with its limited resources, we, with all our boasted intelligence, almost boundless resources, and more advanced civilization, can not ac- complish? The floods of the Nile were circumscrib.ed and held in 

check, and Egypt became in ancient times the granary of the Oriental 

world. The famine-stricken nations of the Orient were fed from the 

superabundant harvests gathered from the levee-protected valley of the 

Nile. ... When we re:flect what Holland, Germany, and Italy-mere garden 

patches in extent of territory to the vast area embraced within the 

Mississippi Valley-have done, a feeling of disgust tinctured with shame comes over us. The work will be a vast one. A _large appropriation 

will be required to carry on and complete the undertaking, and doubtless some one will make money out of the work as it progresses. So 

mote it be. Those opposed will attempt to stigmatize it as a "job." 

Let them.· . The idle and surplus labor of the nation will be employed 

and the country itself developed; over 15;000, 000 acres of the best corn, 

sugar, and cotton land on the globe will be reclaimed, and thE! wealth 

of the United States increased beyond the power of figures to compute, 

and·the whole civilized world will be benefited. No Government en- gineer, nor the most distingu~hed engineer in ciVil life, has ever estimated the cost of a national levee system above $50,000,000. Suppose 

it should take $100,000,000? What of that to a country and a people as rich as ours? And what would even this sum be, large as it is, i~ 

comparison with the benefits to be derived? I have seen the statement 

that in 1861, after the breaking out of our civil war, a general railroad 

system was inaugurated in India which contemplated the construction 

of 5, 000 miles of new railroads to stimulate the growth of cotton in that 

country, and the British Government agreed to pay the interest on the 

capital to be thus employed. The :Mississippi River is the greatest inland highway on earth; teeming millions of inhabitants .along its bor-. 

ders; great wealth is theirs; the soil is of unsurpassed fertility, and the 

climate genial and inviting, and nothing is needed to make it the most 

prosperous and :flourishing portion of the habitable globe but a general 

levee system under the control of theN ationfll Government. If we do 

not get it, all this vast alluvial region will in the course of time; and 

tha.t at no distant period, become an abandoned waste and howling wilderness. · 

The heart grows sick ·and the mind becomes morbid in contemplating the widespread ruin and desolation wrought by the :floods M the 

:Mississippi River in the recent past. 

Let us then, ignoring all former differences, forgetting all feelings of 

sectionalism as a thing of the dead al).d buried past by laying aside all 

party distinction, unite with our brethren fl'om every locality in favor 

of the most necessary improvement of any ag~ or any country, which, 

when completed, so stupendous will be its proportions, will be justly 

classed as the eighth wonder of the world. 

The pro fonna amendment was withdrawn. 

Mr. HEPBURN. I move to strike out the last word. .:Mr. Chairman, as bearing upon this question I desire to call the attention of the 

committee to. the report of the Mississippi River Commission in relation 

to the harbor of Vicksburg, which will .. be found on page 249 of the 

document. The commission there report that the balance available 

for the improvement of Vicksburg Harbo:r on November 1, 1883, was, 

in round numbers, 55,000; that there was allotted to that improvement the additional sum of $25,000; that there was expended of that 

sum, in round numbers, $27,000, and that of this fund available for the 

ilpprovement of the llarbor of Vicksbtirg the commission transferred to 

Lake Providence reach a portion amounting to $22,600, evidently con- cluding that no sum in excess of the amount expended was necessary 

for the Vicksbrng improvement. They probably were moved .to that 

action by the condition of things which is shown by their report. The ~ngineer in charge, in discussing the Vicksburg Harbor, says: 

The ~ork here consists of improvement of the harbor proper and the main- tenance of Delta Point, in Louisiana, opposite Vicksburg. The former [Vicksburg] is entirely local m character, and would add nothing to the general im· 

provemtnt of the work. 

[Cries of "Vote!" "Vote!"] 

The question was taken on the amemlment offered by :Mr. BARKs; 

DALE, and it was rejected. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. I offer ~ amendment, to come in after line 212, 

which I send to the Clerk's desk ro be xead. 

The Clerk read aB follows: 

For building and keeping a dredge-boat and operating said boat for one year in the improvement of the harbors of Savannah, Charleston, and the Saint 

John's Bar, 1100,000. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. Now, Mr. Chairman, I desire to have r-ead, in 

connection with that improvement, a. communication from the mayor 

of Savannah. 

The Clerk was proceeding to .read the communication. 

Mr. NICHOLLS. Mr. Chairman, on the suggestion of a. memberof 

the committee I withdraw the· amendment for_ the present. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from GeQrgia withdraws his 

amendment. The Clerk will report the next paragraph of, the bill. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

Improving harbor at Galveston, Tex.: The Secretary of War is hereby au- thorized and directed to construct such permanent and sufficient jetties and such 

auxiliary works as may 8e necessary to create and permanently maintain a channel between the thirty-foot contour-lines of said harbor and the Gulf of 

Mexico thirty feet deep at low water a.nd not less than two hundred feet wide at the bottom; and all the works within the harbor that 'may be necessary as a means of procuring and maintaining said channel shall be constructed so as not to diminish the area of twenty-six feet of water in ·said harbor, and, so far as practicable by said works, said twenty-six feet area shall be increased. Said 

works shall be constructed according to the plans, specifications, and estimates to be submitted by James B. Eads, as hereinafter provided for, and shall be of a substantial and enduring character, not inferior to those at the mouth of the 1\lis,sissippi Ri'ver, and so made as to be protected a-gainst teredo and other ma- rine insects. 

Ur. WHITE, of Kentucky, and irr. SPRINGER both rose. l\Ir. WILLIS. ?.Ir. Chairman, I rise to a question or order. 

Mr. SPRINGER. I move to strike out the paragraph just read, and 

upon that I desire to address· the committee. 

Mr. ~IDTE, of Kentucky. I move that the committee do now 1·ise. 

Mr. SPRINGER. ?.Ir. Chairman, I believe I have the floor. . The CHAlRhlAN. The gentleman fTom Illinois (Mr. SPRINGER] is 

recognized and moves to strike out this paragraph. ~lr. WHITE, ·of Kentucky. Pending that motion, Mr. Chairman, I 

move that the committee ao now rise. • The CHAIR?I'IAN. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] can not obta,in the floor while the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER] has it, arguing in fa\'or of his proposition. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I rise to a question of order. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state his question of order. . Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I desire to ask the Chair if mine is not a privileged motion before the gentleman from illinois [Mr. SPRINGER) 

offers his amendment. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] 

did not make his motion before the gentleman from illinois offered his 

amendment, and therefore the Chair need not answer the question. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. The gentleman from Illinois [?.Ir. SPRL~GER] has not yet offered his amendment. 

ti'he CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Illinois rose to address the 

Chair, and stated that his motion was to strike out the paragraph just 

read by the .Clerk, and he now has the :floor and is proceedj.ng to debate 

that proposition. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER is rec- o~ed. · 

Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, Ihaddesired beforethedebateupon 

this bill conclu~ed to submit some remarks upon the paragraph which 

has just been read. It js true that the committee has already devoted 

much time to the discussion of the question. of the improvement of Gal.:. 

veston Harbor, but so far that discussion has been either under the rule 

for gene'ral debate or has been introduced out of order upon ~ther sec.: tions of the bill. The committee having now reached that part of the 

bill making provision (or the improvement of Galveston Harbor, I desire to submit some views in relation thereto. .It seems to me, Mr: 

Chairman, that the Committee on Rivers and Harbors in recommending 

the, appropriation provided for in this paragraph has dewrted widely 

from the usual manner of making appropriations for the iinproven1ent 

of rivers and harbors. The employment of a particular person, o:r the 

requirement of the employment of a particular person, to carry on a. particular work is such a departure from correct principles and well.: 

established usage as I hope this committee and this House will not make 

without very serious consideration. . Having moved to strike out this paragraph, I will state that I am not actuated by any desire to defeat the appropriation for Galveston 

Harbor. On the contrary, I regard that as a very important harbor, 

and one deserving the attention of Congress and worthy of a liberal appropriation. But I am utterly opposed ·to farming out appropriations 

that are made for the improvement of rivers and harbors to be con.: trolled by any particular individual or individuals, however eminent 

they may be as engineers. The particular engineer mentioned in this 

provision is to be paid $5,000 a year for his services and $3,000 a year 

for each additional foot of navigable water that is obtained there. I 

have seen it stated in the newspapers that the city of Galveston has 

·proposed to pay him, in addition to this, thesumof$10,000salaryand 

$5,000 a foot for each additional foot of navigable water; IIl.aking in all a salary of $15,000 a year C&Sh and $8,000 for each additionalfootof 

nayjgable water obtained below the present line. If he shonl.d be en· 

• 
1418 -· CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

gaged ten years· in making ~ improve~ent and it should cost the sum of money heretofore estiiQ_ated by him, the· Government and the 

city of Galveston will have paid t~ engineer~t least $271000 a year as salary and for the contingent amount to be allowed for increased depth 

of water. 

How much additional might be made by the skillful manipulation of 

contracts it is, of course, impossible to estimate. I am utterly opposed 

to the employmentofany individual in this way; Iamutterlyopposed 

to making an appropriation dependent on the employment of a particular individ~. If this gentleman should die pending "this work, yottr 

appropriation should lapse. If he should become non compos mentis,· or, 

through sickness or disease, should become unable to carry on the work, 

everything would stop and this harbor improvement would be at an end. 

[Here the hammer fell] 

Mr. WILLIS. Mr. Chairman, I rise to oppose the amendment of the 

gentleman from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER]. The gentleman proceeds 

upon the erroneous assumption that the provision which he opposes is 

to be permitted to rematn in the bill: Now I ·aesire to say to him and 

t.o the Committee of the Whole that the Committee on Ri~ers and 

Harbors, at a meetiDg subsequent to the one at which they agreed to 

report this provision, determiaed, after consultation in regard to the 

Galveston improvement, to offer as a substitute for the provision now in the bill the amendment which I send to the Clerk'sd~k and askto 

have read as a part of my remarks. 

The Clerk read as·follows: 

For Galve.5ton Harbor, $500,000; and the harbor board herein provided for are directed to proceed at once to examine, survey, and report to the Secretary of War for his approval plans, specifications, and estimates for said improvement and when said plans, specifications, andestimatessha.ll have been approved, said work shall be carried forward with all possible expedition. 

Mr. WILLIS. Now, Mr. Chairman, it wPl be seen that Ur Eads is 

entirely eliminated from the provision in regard to Galveston Harbor. 

He is not given the control of the work; he is not to be paid an annual 

salary; nor is he to be paid a fee for securing additional depth of water. 

In other words, he has nothing to do with Galveston Harbor. 

We believe that the Committee of the Wholewil].be r~y to accept 

this propositi9n; and the Committee on Rivers and Harbo1-a have instructed me by a unanimous vote to offer this as a substitute for all of 

these four or five provisions touching Galveston. 

:M:r. CUTCHEON. What is the part of the bill for which this is 

proposed as a substitute-from what line to what line? 

Mr. WILLIS. It begins at line 213 and ends at line 305-embra~g 

the whole three pages with reference to Galveston Harbor. 

Now as to the appropriation which the committee recommend, we propose $500,000 instead of three-quarters of a million ·dollars. The 

Committee of the Whole will bear in mind that when the last river 

and harbor bill was presented it contained an appropriation of $250,000 

for Galveston, but upon the motion of the gentleman representing the 

Galveston district [Mr. OcHILTREE] that provision was stricken out, so that in the last river and harbor bill the harbor of Galveston received nothing. Under the present estimates, according to the rule we have adQpted, this harbor would have been entitled to another 

appropriation of $250,000; bnt in view of the fact that in the last bill 

this harbor received nothing, the committee have upplemented the 

ordinary appropriation of this year with that which they put in. the 

last bill, but which was struck out on motion of the Representative 

from Galveston; so· that, taking the two bills together, $500,000 for 

Galveston Harbor is no mare in proportion to the e&timates than any 

others of f.he great harbo:rs of the country ltave received at the hands 

of the River and Harbor Committee. • I not only trust, Mr. Chairman, that this matter will be satisfactory, 

but I may say (going in advance a little) that in regard to the Mississippi River the committee have authorized me to ofter an amendment 

which I believe will commend itself to all sol1nd-thinking men on this 

floor-a proposition that hereafter the improvement of the Mississippi 

River shall be confined to the plans as detailed in the first and second 

re~rts of the Mississippi River Commission. 

LHere the hammer fell.) 

Mr. WILLIS. Just one word more. If this is done, this costly re- vetment system is done away with, and the objections urged on this 

p.oint will be obviated. I ask for a vote. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move that the committee now rise. 

?tfr. WILLIS. I hope that will not be done. 

Mr. MOULTON. Oh, yes; it ought to be done. 

Mr. WILLIS. I ask the friends of this bill to vote down the motion. 

The question being takel)., there were~ayes 119, noes 85. 

Mr. WILLIS and Mr. GIBSON called for tellers. 

Tellers were ordered-more than one-fifth of a quorum voting theref~r. 

Mr. WILLIS. ! .rise to a parliamentary inquiry. 

:Mr. RANDALL. If there is to be debate let us have it on both. sides. . Mr. WILLIS. I wish to make a parliamentary inquiry~ If the Committee of Whole shon.ld now riseThe CHAIRMAN. The Chair will state that no debate is in order 

except l)y unanimous consent. 

!lr. WILLIS. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. WILLIS. If the Committee of the Whole should now rise and 

the House should adjourn would not the legislative dnyof l\Ionday be 

gone? 

The CHAIRMAN. That is a question to be deter:dlined in the 

House. 

?tir. RANDALL. We want to go on with the Post-Office appropriation bill . . The CHAIRl\IAN. Tellers have been ordered on the motion that 

the committee rise. The Chair appoints the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. WILLIS, and the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. ToWN REND. The 

tellers will take their places. 

_The committee again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 129, 

noes98. _ -

So the motion that the committee rise was agreed to. 

The committee accordingly rose; and Mi. BLACKBURK having re- sumed the chair a Speaker pro tempore, Mr. liAMMOND reported that 

the Comniittee of the Whole House on the state of the Union had, ac- cording to order, had under consideration the bill (H. R. 8130) making 

appropriations for the construction, repair, and preservation of certain 

public works on rivers and harbors, and for other purposes and had come to no resolution thereon. . 

:Mr. HAMMOND. I move that when the House adjourns to-day it 

adjourn to meet on Tuesday next. . _ M:r. RANDALL. It may be in o«<.er, intervening bn.si.Q.e having--

M:.r. HAMMOND. That is my purpose. 

M:r. WHITE, of Kentucky, rose. The SPEAKER pro tempore. For what purpose does the gentleiil!lll 

rise? 

1\Ir. WHITE, of Kentuck-y. I rise to a question of privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is not in order pending the motion 

of the gentleman from Georgia. 

:Mr. 'VHITE, of Kentucky. I rise to a question of privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tentpore. Is it a question of per30nal privilege 

to which the gentleman rises? 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I tb4lk so. The SPEAKER pro tempore. Then state it. 

Mr. HAMMOND. The gentleman from Georgia consents to nothing. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair understands that, but wishes 

to bear the gentleman from Kentucky. · 

lr. WHITE, of Kentncl..-y. In the remarks of the gentleman from 

Kentucky-- · 

The SPEAKER pro tempm·e. That in the judgment of the Chair, - not a question of privilege. 

Ur. WHITE, of Kentucky. Will the Chair let me state-

'fhe SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair can not let the gentleman 

have unlimited scope. 

:Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky.· I desire to repeat the language of my 

colleague. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I make the point--

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the gentleman refer to the language of his colleague [Mr. WILLIS]? 

:Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I will state if the Chair will allow me. Mr. TOWNSHEND. I make the point this is not in order pending 

the motion to adjourn over. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Cha~ sustains the point of order. 

The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Georgia [Mr. 

HAl\DIOND] that when the Honse adjourns to-day it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next.. · The motion was.disagreed t.o. 

:Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move the House resolve itself into the Committee of the Whole Honse on the state of the Union for the purpose 

of considering the Post-Office appropriation bill. 

]}lr. WILLIS. If that motion is voted down I hope I--

!-lr. RANDALL. . Debate is not in order unless allowed on both sides. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Debate is not inorderexceptbyunanimous consent. . Mr. POST, of Pennsylvania. I object. 

1\lr. WILLIS. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

?tlr. WILLIS. If that motion is voted down will it not be in order 

then to move to go into Committee of the Wbole House on the state of 

the Union for the purpose of taking up the rh:er and harbor bill? ,If 

so, I announce that is my object. . Mr. RANDALL. · That same motion can be made after the other 

genernl appropriation bills are p ed. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is the opinion of the Chair if this 

motion is rejected the gentleman can move to go into the Committee 

of the Whole Honse on the state of the Union and to state what his o~iect in so doing is. · Mr. WHITE, of Keil.tn.cky. I rise to a question of personal privi- lege. I have the reporter's notes of what my colleague said this morn- ing and I will read from them. The SPEAKER pro tern.por~ Does the gentleman rise to a que tion 

of personal privilege. 

Mr. WHITE1 of Kentuck-y. I do so far a the remarks of my col- . 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. -1419 

league [Mr. WILLis] are concerned in the speech which he made this 

morning, and so. far as they apply~ me I desire to make a denial. . ~e 

UBed the following language. [ Cnes of'' Regular order!''] ' This IS 

what he said: We have been delayed in the progress of the consideration of this bill because 

of the want of a quornm. As the Speaker is well a ware, a good p~rt of this House has been engaged in making up a Cabine~ f?r the. next ~1dent, and ·arlous members of the -Committee on .A.ppropna.t10ns, Its cha1n0an and sev- eral other members have been included in tha~nd another portion of them 

ha."\"e been ~ngaged 'in festivities, and by their absence w_e have beenfrequent~y left without a. quorum, and hence delay has occurred m the progress ~f this bill. . 

[During the ~eading of the above there were constant cries of'' Regular 

order!"] · · Mr. SPRINGER. I object to this. 

11-fr. TOWNSHE~TD. I rise to a point of order . . Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I deny that I have been engaged in 

any of thesefestivities. [Laughter and cries of "Regularorder! '] 

The SPEA.KERpro tempore. The ~ntleman ~m Kentuckyis out 

of order and will resume his seat. 

"bfr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Mr. Speaker, ·! wisk to say--

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Sergeant-at-Ar~ will see that 

the· order of the Chair is obeyed. 

Mr: HILL, assistant sergeant-at-arms (without the mace), proceeded 

up the aisle and took hold of Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky, ~Ir. W!IITE 

resisting. ~he assistant. sergeant-at-arms returned t<> his desk and 

came again, carrying the mace, toward Mr. WHITE. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will recognize no gentle- man until all the members resume their seats, and order is restored. 

[After a pause.] The question before the House is the motion the 

House resolve itBelf into the Committee of the Whole House on the 

state of the Union for the purpose of considering general appropriations bills. . Mr. WILLIS. I ask, Mr. Speaker, if there is-- :Mr. RANDALL. If we are to have ~ebate let us have it on both 

sides. 

Mr. WILLIS. I ask the yeas and nays be taken at once in order t<> 

save time. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Are the yeas and nays called. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I rise to a question of p_ersonal privi- lege~ I desire to state, sir, that when I was occupying my place on this :floor, the assistant sergeant-at-arms came to me, he a _citizen, · without any authority, without any semblance of authority-came to 

me for the pmpose of arre~ting me on this :floor. [Cries of "Regular 

order!"] 

Mr. BOUTELLE. This is the regular order. 

The SPEAKER zn·o tmnpore. He went to discharge his duty under 

the direction of the Chair. The Chair ruled that the gentleman was 

not in order, and having requested him to take his seat he persistently 

refused to do so. [Applause on the Democratic side of·the Honse.] 

lUr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I desire to debate the question I have 

raised. 

Mr. TOWNS~ND. Regular order. 

Air. WHITE, of Kentucky. I haYe the right to be heard. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thinks differentlyJ and de. 

clines furth"6r to hear the gentleman on his question of privilege, holding 

it is not a question of personal privilege. . Mr. KELLEY. I desire to ask in reference to that question of personal privilege whether a person·without any insignia of office can place 

violent hands on a member and push him from his seat. I deny that 

such a thing can be done. 

Mr. HAMMOND. I rise to a question of order. 

The SPEAKER pro ft>mpore. The Chair has heard no appeal from 

his decision. 

Mr. CUTCHEON. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question of the very highest personal privilege. . The SPEAKER pro tempore. .And the Chair differs from the gentleman. Mr. H.A.AfMOND. I rise to a question of order. 

Mr. CUTCHEON. And it seems to me that it is hardly competent--

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Georgia has risen 

to a question of order. · Air. HAMMOND. I raise the question of order that, the Speaker having decided the question and no appeal being taken, all of these re. marks are out of order. · · . 

The SPEAKER pro tmnpore. The point of order is sustained. 

The question is on ordering the yeas and nays on the motion of the 

gentleman from Illinois. 

The yea and nays were ordered. 

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 149, nays 117, not 

''oting 57; as follows: 

Aiken, Alexander, 

Bagley, Bayne, Beach, 

Belmont, Bingham, 

Bland, 

Blount 

Boutelle, 

Boyle, 

Brewer,F.B. Broadhead, 

Brown, W. W. 

YEAS-149. 

Browne, T.l\I. Buchanan, Buckner, Burnes, 

Campbell, Felix 

~Jl~~· .J. E. 

Carleton, Cassidy, Clardy 

Cobb, Collins, Connolly, Converse, 

. 

~ve, 

Covmgton, 

Cox,S.S. 

Cox,W.R .. Crisp, 

Curtin, 

Deuster, 

Dingley, Dockery, 

Dorsheimer, 

Dowd, 

Eaton, 

Eldredge, 

English, 

Ermentrout, 

Everhart, 

Ferrell. 

Follett, Fnnston, Fyan, 

Glascock, 

Graves, 

Greenleaf, Hammond, 

Hardeman, 

Hardy, 

Harmer, 

Hatch, \V. H. 

Haynes, Henley, 

Hill, 

Adams, G. E. Anderson, 

Ballentine, 

Barbour, 

BarksdaJ.e, 

Bennett, 

Bisbee, 

Blackburn, 

Blanchard, 

Bratton, 

Breckinridge, 

Breit~ng;-

Budd, 

Burleigh, 

Cabell, 

Caldwell, 

Culberson, D. B. Culbertson, W. W. Cullen, 

Cutcheon, 

Dargan, 

Davidson, 

Davis,G.R. 

Davis,L.H. 

Davis,R.T. 

Dibble, 

Dibrell, 

Dllilham, 

Dunn, 

Ellis, 

Hiscock. Poland, mtt 

Ho~n, 

Hopk:.ins, 

Horr, 

,. ~~. 

"Howey, 

Hutchins, Jones, B. W. Kean, 

Keifer, 

Kelley, 

'Ketcham, 

Lamb, 

Lawrence, 

LeFevre, Long, Lyman, 

1\IcCormick, 

Matson, 

Millard, 

Mitchell, 

l\Iorgan, 

l\lorse, 

Moulton, 

~~~J.;r, O'Neill, Charles 

Paige, Patton, Payson, 

Pettibone, 

'Pusey, Randa.ll, 

·n.aytG. W. 

Reea., T.B. Reid,J.W. 

Reese, 

Rice, 

Riggs, 

Rogers, W. F. Rosecrans, 

Rowell, 

Russell, Ryan, 

Seney, 

Seymour, 

Skinner, C. R. Skinner, T. G. 

Slocum, 

Smith, A. Herr Smith, H. Y. Spooner, 

Spriggs, 

Springer, 

Steele, 

Stevens, 

Stewart, J. W. Stockslager, 

Storm, 

N.A.YB-117. 

EUwood, .Jones, .J. T. Findlay, King, 

Fin.erty, Kleiner, 

Foran, · Lanham, Forney~ Le'!iB, 

George, Lore, 

Gibson, Lowry, Goff, McCoid, 

Green, McMillin Guenther, Milliken,' 

Halsell, Mills, 

Hanback, Money, 

Hart, Muldrow, 

Hatch, H. H. Murphy, 

Hemphill, Neece, 

Henderson, D. B. Nelson, 

Henderson, T . .J. Nichols, 

Hepburn, Nutting, Herbert, Oates, 

Hewitt, G. W. Ocbiltree, 

Hoblitzell, O'Ferrall, 

Holmes, O'llara 

Houk, Payne,' 

Houseman, Peel, Hunt, Perkins, 

Hurd, Peters, . .James, Phelp , Jeffords, Pierce, 

.Johnson, Pryor, 

.Jones,J.H. Reagan, 

NOT VOTING-57. 

Adams,J.J. Craig, Libbey, 

Arnot, Elliott, Lovering, Atkinson, Evans,· McAdoo, 

Barr, Fiedler, l\IcComas, 

Belford, Garrison; Maybury 

Bowen, Geddes, Miller, .J. fi-. 

Brainerd, Hancock, r.n~ri S. H. Brewer, J.H. Hewitt,A.S. r.Iorri 1, 

Brumm, Holton, l\Iorrison, 

Oampbell,J.l\1. Hooper, Muller, 

Cannon, .Jones,J.K. O'Neill,J.J. 

Chalmers, Jordan, Parker, 

Clay, Kello.,o-g, Potter, 

Clements, Lacey, Rankin, 

Cook, Laird, • Ranney t 

So the motion was agreed to. . 

Sumner, D. H. Swope, 

Talbott, 

Taylor, J. D. Til.lman, 

Townshend, 

Tully, 

Turner, H. G. 

Turner, Oscar 

Valentine, 

Van Alstyne, 

Vance, 

Van Eaton, 

Wadsworth, 

Wait, 

Wakefield, 

Wallace,. 

Warner, A •. J. Washburn, 

White,J. D. 

White, Milo 

Whiting, 

Wilkins, 

Wina.ns, E. B. Winans, John 

Yaple, 

York, 

Young. 

Robertson, 

Rogers, J. H. 

Shively, 

Singleton, 

Sma.ll8, 

·snyder, 

Stephenson, 

Stewart, Charles 

Stone, 

Strfl,it, 

Struble, 

Sumner, C. A. 

Taylor, E. B. Taylor, J. M. Thomas, 

Thompson, Ward, 

Warner, Richard 

Weaver, 

Wellborn, 

Williams, 

·Willis, 

Wilson, James W'Ilso~ W. L. Wise~ti. D. WoQa.ward, 

Worthington. 

Ray, Osalan 

Robinson, J. S. . RobLnson, W. E. 

Rockwell, 

Shaw . Throckmorton,· 

Tucker, 

Weller, 

Wemple, 

Wise,J.S. 

Wolford, 

Wood. 

Mr. RANDALL. I move to dispense with the reading of the names. Mr. WILLIS. I object. 

Air. RANDALL. I only wanted to save. time for the House. 

The Clerk proceeded to read the names of those Yoting. 

Mr. WILLIS. I withdraw the motion. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Pending the announcement of the vote 

I rise to a question of personal privilege. Th~ SPEAKER p1·o tempore (Mr. SPRINGER in the chair). The gentleman caR not, unless it pertains to the calling of the roll, until the 

announcement of the vote, which announcement can not be made until 

the roll-call is completed. 

Air. WHITE, of Kentucky. I thought it was completed. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is not completed. 

[The Speaker pro tetn.pore {11-Ir. BLACKBURN) here resumed the chair.] 

M:r. ·WHITE, of Kentucky. Pending the announcement of the vote 

I desire to rise to a question of the highest personal privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will state that the vote 4aving been ascertained by call of the yeas and nays, the first thing in order 

will be th.e announcement of that vote to the Ho~, after which the 

gentleman will be recogniz;ed. · 

l\Ir. WHITE, pf Kentucky. I desire to raise the question of order 

that then it will be too late . . 

The SPEAKER pro tmnp<rre. The Chair will recognize the gentleman 

after the roll-call is completed. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. But if the vote shall have been an- nounced will the Chair not then have announced the fad that the House 
1420 ·CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- · HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7~ 

baa resolved to go into Committee of the Whole House on the state of the 

Union, and will it not then be too late to rise to a question of privilege? 

TheSPEAKERprotempore. The-Chairthinksnot. TheCha.irthinks 

the vote should first be announced, and that will be done unless the 

gentleman from Kentuck-y rises to oorrect or change his vote. 

The result of the vote was then announced as above recorded. 

Mr. RANDALL moved to reconsider the vote by which the House 

determined to go into Committee of the Whole House on the state of 

the Union; and moved to lay that motion on the table. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. And pending that motion I rise to a 

question of personal privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro temp01·e. The Chair will ·recognize the motion 

of the gentleman from Pennsylvania as pending, and recognizes the 

gentleman from Kentucky as rising to a question of ·personal privilege, 

which he will now state. 

QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. 

Mr. WIDTE, of Kentucky. I ha.v~ said, sir,. tllll.t I I"OSe to a question of the highest privilege. 

Mr. Speaker, I desire to call the attention of this House to what oc- curred on this floor a few moments ago relative to myself. I was addressing the House-the Speaker-in regard to a question of privilege. 

I ask tllat the Clerk now read Rule IX, to show that I was ·addressing 

the Chair under a question of personal privilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not understand the gentleman to have taken an appeal from the decision of the Chair. . Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. But I nowrisetoaquestionofprivilege. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair is aware of the rule to which 

thegentlemanrefers,and,astheChairhassuggested,noappealwastaken. 

Mr. WIDTE,ofKeptucky. But I am nowseekingtopresentaquestion of personal privilege. · . The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not understand that 

the gentleman presents a question of personal privilege by the statement of what took place a few moments ago, when the gentleman declined to take an appeal. 

?tfr. WHITE, of Kentucky. But I am rising to a question of p_er- 130nal privilege as to what occurred with reference to myself at that time. 

The SPEAKER pro tem.pore. The gentleman can state it. 

lli. WIDTE, of Kentucky. If the Chair does not care to hear the 

tule read I will call the attention of the Chair to what occurred. . While I was stating, as I thought, a question of perSonal privilege, 

and before I had oompleted what I desired to say; the Chair ruled me out of. order. Numbers of gentlemen were standing around me upon 

the :floor and in front of the Speaker's desk. The Chair ordered the 

Sergeant-at-Arms to preserve order upon the floor, and now, in order 

that I may not be mistaken in stating what occurred, I shl}:lrask the 

Clerk to read from thenotesoftbeO.fficial Reporter as to what transpiied. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. T:be Clerk will read what the extended 

notes show. · 

The Clerk read as f(}llows: 

Mr. 'VHITE, of· K~ntucky, ha.ving concluded reading an extract from the 

speech of Mr. WILLIS1 made this morning. [Cries of" Regular order!") .Mr. SPRINQER. I obJect. 

Mr. ToWNSHEND. I rise to a point of order. 

Mr. 'VHITE,-of Keutucky, continued reading. [Cries of "Regular order!") 

The SPEAKER p1·o tempore. The gentleman from Kentucky is out of order and 

will resume his seat. · Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. ?tlr. Spe3.ker, I wish to say- The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Sergeant-at-Arms will see that the order of the 

Chair is obeyed. · Mr.l!ILL, ~sistantsergeant-at-arms, without the niace, proceeded up the aisle 

and took hold of Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky, .Mr. WmTE resisting. The-assistant sergeant-at-arms returned to his desk and came again, carrying the mace, toward 1\Ir. WHITE. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will recognize no gentleman until all re- sume their seats and order is restored. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. That is all that I wish to have read. 

I desire to call the attention of the House to tliis fact, that w}lile I was addressing the Chair there were numbE>.rs of gentlemen on the floor, 

and when the Chair ordered the Sergeant-at-Arms to preserve order, a citizen, without any symbol ofpower, as is required by paragraph 2 of 

RllieiT- · 

The symbol oi his officeReferring to the Sergeant-at-Armsshall be the mace, which shall be borne by h~ w bile enforcing order on the floor. 

I say, while I was addressing the Chair and while the Chair was attempting to preserve order, a citizen without any semblance of power came to me and demanded I should take my seat; and when .I protested with the palm of my hand, without any violence, he laid violent 

hands on me and in an offensive manner demanded I should take my 

seat. He had pa.ssed numbers of gentlemen standing on this floor. 

Why should I be singled out? 

If he was carrying out the order of the Speaker, if that was the intention of the Speaker, then like Cromwell this Speaker can put his foot 

down and say, "Go,. begone." He can do as the speaker of the pseudo 

parliament at Constantinople did a few years ago when the Snltan was ~tottempting to throw dust in the eyes of the civilized world to make 

tbem believe there was a parliament sitting for the Turkish people. If 

any mt'mber dared to do what the speaker did not wish, he had t.he serg2ant-~t-arms arrest that member and thrust him out of the house. 

If a citizen without any symbol of power can come here and_ lay hands on me, then be cari take hold of the venerable gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. KELLEY], who called attention to this matter in such eloquent language; he can take hold of any man ·on this floor. The coun- try will take note of the fact. 

I was reading what the chairman of a committee of tliis House had 

said of the distinguished chairman of the Committee on Appropriations; 

that .he had been -away forming a cabinet; that members of that com- mittee ~ad been away forming a cabinet; that there was Iio quorum 

here because we were going out for festivities; and I desire to say for 

my part 1 had declined to go to that oyster or clam bake although the 

invitation was presented to me. Mr. GEORGE D. WISE. I call the gentleman to order. This has 

nothing to do with any question of privilege. Th~ SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair does not see that the gentleman f1·om Kentucky is confining himsel( to the question of privilege. 

l'Ir. GEORGE D. 'VISE. He evidently wishes to make a political 

speech. I object to ·his proceeding. . , The SPEAKER pro felitpore. The Chair asks the gentleman to con- fine himself to his question of privilege. · 

Mr. WHITE; of Kentucky. I am not making a political sp~ech. 

Mr. GEORGE D. WISE. That is what you are doing. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. The gentleman should address his re- marks to the Chair. 

Mr. GEORGE D. WISE. I address them to you. !"address myre- markstothegentlemanfromKenturky,a~dicallthegentlemantoorder. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair asks the gentleman from 

Kentuckj to confine his remarks within the proper limit of what is a question of privilege. . 

1\Ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. The question I mise :is tlu,l.t if any per- son comes to a member on this floor, acting for the Sergeant-at-Arms, 

by the sanction of the Sergeant-at-Arms-comes to a member and attempts to arrest him 'vithont bearing the mace, and lays violent han<k 

upon the member, he is unworthy to be an officer of this august body. 

!tlr. MILLS. Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky . . I will yield for a question. 

1\Ir. 11IILLS. Suppose the Sergeant-at-Arms sees a member involved 

in a difficulty with another member, and there is a likelihood that one or the other will r~ceive great bodily harm, should he wait to go down 

and get his mace before taking measures to restore order ? 

1\Ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. That has no relevancy to tliis case, 

where a citizen co~es to a member on this floor without bearing any 

symbol of power and lays violent hands on him. I do not desire to dis- cuss a hypothesis. · 

Mr. HAliMOND. I rise to a question of order. 

The SPEAKER pro felnpore. The gentleman will state it. 

Mr. HA.Ul\IOND. This identical matter was passed upon by the 

Chair and no appeal was taken from his decision. My point of order 

is that this argament is out of order without any regard at all to what 

may be its merits. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thinks the point of order 

is well taken . Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. .Mr. Speaker, the facts are these--

[Cries of·" Regular order!"] . . The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair would very gladly indulge 

the gentleman from ~entucky, but thinks. the point of order taken by 

the gentleman from Georgia [1\.Ir. HA::.\DIO~:D] is well taken; and the 

regUlar order is demanded. 

Mr: BOUTELLE. I desire to make a parliamentary inquiry. ne SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state it. 

1\Ir. BOUTELLE. Some .gentlemen would like to know what the 

point of order is which the Chair has sustained? 

The SPEAKER p r.o tempore. It is not the fault of the Chair if the 

gentleman from Maine did not hear what was the point of order sustained by the Chair. · 1\Ir. BOUTELLE. But I submit it is the fault of the Chair if it does 

not give a respectful answer to a question which .·I have respectfully 

asked. 

The SPEAKER pro e~npor . The Chair does not think he is bound 

to answer the question, but out of politeness he~ say the point of 

order was made by the gentleman from Georgia that the question· that 

was being submitted by the gentleman from Kentucky had already 

been raised, and had already been decided by the Chair not to present a question of privilege, and no appeal was taken from that decision; 

althougli the Chair asked if the decision of the Chair was appealed 

from. The Chair thinks the point of order is well taken. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Will the Speaker in$lulge me? [Cries 

of" Regular order!" " Regular order!"] At the time to which the 

Chair has referred we were taking the yeas and nays, and I only postponed th.e appeal until the call had been completed. I now appeal from 

the decision of the Chair . . [Cries of "Too late!" "Regular order!"] 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. It is too late to take an appeal. The 

regular order is the question ~n the motion of the geutleman from 

Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] to lay on the table the motion to recon- sider thevote by which the House determined to go into Cominitteeof 

the Whole Honse on the state of the Union for the consideration of 

general appropriation bills. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- - HOUSE. 1421 

· Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Pending that I appeal from the decision 

of the Chair. . The SPEAKER pro tempore. Upon what point does the gentleman ~pw? . 

l\Ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. Upon the point raised by the gentleman 

from Georgia [Mr. HA~IOND]. 

l\Ir. HAMMOND. l\Ir. Spea-ker, I think the appeal comes too late. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair hardly thinks there can be. any difference of opinion upon that subject. The effort of the gentle- man from Kentucky [Mr. WHITE] to appeal now from that decision of 

the Chair is clearly too late under the rule. The Chair therefore submits the motion of the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. RANDALL] 

to lay on the table the motion to reconsider the vote by which the 

House determined to go into Committee of the Whole to conSider appropriation bills. . The question was taken; and the motion was agreed to. 

The House accordingly resolved itself into the Committee of the 

Whole House on the state of the Union, Mr. SPRINGER in the chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. The House. is now in Committee of the Whole 

for the purpose of considering general appropriation bills. The Clerk ~l report the first hill on the Calendar. ~he Clerk proceeded to read the bill (H. R. 8128) making appropriations for the service Qf the Post-Office Department for the fiscal year 

ending June 30~ 1886, and for other purposes. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. lli. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that 

the first reading of the bill be dispe:tlsed with. 

There was no objection, and it was so ordered. 

The CHAIRMAN. The bill is now before the committee for general 

debate, and the gentleman from Illinois [l\Ir. ToWNSHE:ND] is recogwed. . Mr. WILLIS. Mr. Chairman, I desire to ask a question of the gen-... tleman in charge of this bill; I desire to know when he proposes that .. general debate upon it shall close. . · · 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. l\Ir. Chairman, I am unable at present to say 

what will be the lengthof'time desired for-generaldebate. 1 I can only 

say for myself that I am ~ous to expedite the. passage of this- bill as much as is p~actica.ble. There are ·several . new features in the bill. 

Some very important new legislation is proposed by the committee, and 

it will take some time to propro:ly explain that new legislation so that 

the Houseshall vote upon itintelligently. I wiU·sa.ytothegentleman .from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] that in my judgment·it would be best to 

allowthe debate to run on forsometime;bec.ause I think weshall then 

be able moreeasilyto ascertain howmuch time may be needed: I say 

to the ge~tleman further that I will join with him in rest:rictingdeon.te 

within the closest limits that mn.y be found to he. -compatible with the 

interests of the public ®d-the proper explanation of this bill. This is a bill which appropriates over $52,000,000, and it c~rtainly <JUght to 

have a reasonable time allowed for its explanation. 

Mr. WILLIS. l\Ir; ChairmanYr. TOWNSHEND. I do not yield the floor, Mr. Chairman, but I 

am willing that the gentleman shall ask me a question if he desires to. 

Mr. WILLIS. I de~ire to sayJ Mr. Chairman, that the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, after one test vote (to which they were entitled, as being in charge of the river and harbor bill), made no opposition to tile 

will of the House to take up this appropriation bill; but it was an- nounced then, and it is understood now, that the time for the considerotion of all these important bills is quite limited, and therefore, in no captious spirit, bnt in the interest of the promotion of the public business, and with a view to the consideration of other important public measures after this one shall have been disposed of, I move that after 

this bill shall have been debated for an hour and a half the committee 

shall rise. · · 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. 1\'Ir. Chairman, I do not yield the floor for any 

motion. · 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. WILLIS] can not make any motion at this time. He can give notice of a motion. 

Mr. WILLIS. Very well;· then, Mr. Chairman, I give notice that at 

the expiration of that time I will make that motion. 

Mr. RANDALL. I think it woJild be better to allow the bill to re- main in charge of the gentleman from Illinois; and in that connection 

I want to say, for one, that in my judgment the general debate on this 

bill should not extend over to-day. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I do not think it will. 

Mr. GIBSON (to :Mr. RANDALL). I thought you said you want-ed 

to pa.ss the bill to-day. 

Mr. HOLMAN. Two hours ought to be sufficient. 

Mr. RANDALL. I thought that two hours would be sufficient, bnt 

the other side demand two hours. · Mr. TOWNSHEND. Mr. Chairman, I now des:4'etoresumethefloor .. Mr: HORR. I think this side of the House will be satisfied with 

two hours and a half for the discussion of this bill. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Dlinois [Mr. TOWNS~D] is entitled to the floor and declines to yield, and he is 

entitled to one hour under·the rule. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. Mr ... Chairman, I hope this discussion does not come out of my time. · 

The CHAffiMAN. It m.ust come out of the gentleman's time. 

Mr. RANDALL:. Well, the gentleman from illinois [Mr. TowNSHEND] has time enough, at any rate. The gentleman from Michigan 

[Ur. HoRR] desires to make a statement, and I think thatifthecommittee will listen to him the effect will probably be to shorten the debate. · . The CHAIRMAN. The appeal must be made to the gentleman in 

charge of the bill. 

Mr. TOWNSH.END. If it will not come out of my time, I am willing to yield to the gentleman [Mr. HoRu] for a statement. 

The CHAIRMA.....~. If there be no objection the gentleman from Michiga~ [:Mr. HoRR] will be heard out of order. 

Mr. HORR. Mr. Chairmim, upon consultation I am satisfied that 

two hours and a. half will meet the wishes of gentlemen upon our side 

of. the House. That is the best I can do, and it is a very short time for 

the discussion of this bill. 

Mr. RANDALL. I think gentlemen.had better consent to that proposition, rather than excite any faCtious opposition. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. Mr. Chairman, what is the proposition that is 

made? 

The CH.A.IRMAN. The Chair can not entertain any proposition in 

regard· to limiting the debate in committee. The Chair has been· simply 

listening to suggestions made upon ·that subject by l]Jlallimous consent! 

All motions to limit debate must be made in the House. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. . Mr. Chairman, I desire to know if it is the 

wish of the gentleman from Michigan [.Ur. HORR] that two hours and a half shall be allowed to thn.t side of the House for the discussion of 

this bill ? . · The CHAIRM.A.....~. The gentleman from Michigan [Mr. HORR] has 

so stated. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. If that be allowed, proper co.nrtesy, I suppose, would· require tha.t two hours and a half should be accorded to 

this side also . Mr. HORR. .Of course. . The CHAIR~L'\.N. Gentlemen w.ill understand that although they mak~infonnal agr-eements upon this subject here in committee, wheri 

it comes to an actual motion to limit debate that must be made in the 

House. · 

. Mr. TOWNSB;END. l\ir. Ch~irman, at the request of some gentle.! men around me I would say I am willing to accept the propositio~ made. by ·the.gentleman from _Michigan [Mr. HORR] and let general; 

debate on this bill be limited to two hours and a half on each side. I£' 

is possible that the entire time "3Warded to th~ side of the House ma~· 

not be consumed, but I would notr like to bind myself by an agre~ment 

that-gentlemen OR this side will not wish the entlre time. I will ask an.undei'Standing that the limit I have just named ·shall be the limit 

upon this debate. . • · Mr. ANDERSO~. I shall object to that for the purpose of ascer,; 

taining whether there is no way. by which debate can be closed at aJ! 

earlier period. It seems to me that with ·all these appropriation billf! 

hanging we had better vote than ta.lk. . . , Mr. RANDALL. I have always found it better to accede to a rea- sonable request of either side as to general debate than refuse and then 

have more time taken by reason of the bad temper resulting. . Mr. ANDERSON. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. Is it in ordey 

to move to limit general del;>ate on this bill to two horus, or I will sai 

three hours? 

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman of the Committee of the Whole can entertain no motion to limit debate. The Committee of the Whol6 can not re~late that matter exeept by. unanimous consent, and objec'-:= 

tion having been made--

Mr. RANDALL. I hope the gentleman from Kansas [Mr. ANDERSON] will not object. 

The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentle; man from Illinois [Mr. TOWNSHEND] that all general debate on this 

bill be limited to five hours? 

Mr. REAGAN. There is objection. In viewofthe conditionofbusi-:- ness I am surprised that gentlemen should desire to occupy so much 

time in general debate on this bill. ; 

Mr. RANDALL. Well, the g~ntleman from Texas [Mr. REAGAN] 

need not express any astonishment. We are compelled to meet the 

views of the House as a whole. 

Mr. WILLIS. Why not submit the question to the House? 

Mr. RANDALL. Because it is not in order to do so now. Mr. REAGAN. It is not necessary to waste almost two days on general debate at this stage of the session. · Mr. RANDALL. Well, this Post-Office bill is an important measure. Mr. REAGAN. . All the new legislation iii the bill will have to go 

out on noints of order at any rate. \ 

The CHAIRMAN. This debate is not in order. The gentleman froni 

Illinois [Mr; TOWNSHEND] is entitled to the floor. . .. 1 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. Mr. Chairman, the bill now before this ~~ 

mittee of the Whole · carries an appropriation of $52,253,200 a ~~ 

twice as large as that contained in any other appropriation bill excepfi· • the one providing appropriations for the payment of pensions. It aut 

thorizes an aggregate expenditure exceeding all the appropriations rOi; 

the support of this Government in 1854. It provides for the paymen~ of ealanes of more officers of this Government than any other·ofthe grea1J, 
1422 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

money bills. It is a bill which affects the entire busineSs and industrial 

interestofthewholecountry. Its influence is felt ineveryvillage, yea. 

in every neigborhood, of the land. All localities, all interests, all the 

people are directly.interested in it, and it reaches into American interests in every civilized foreign country. It does seem to me, tlierefore, 

that a bill of such magnitude is entitled at least to five hours for explanation and general discussion, which is asked for. · The river and harbor bill, in which the gentleman: from Texas [~Ir. 

REAGAN] feels such an interest, occupied the attention of this House 

last week in gen~l debate for several days; and that bill does not 

provide expenditures exceeding $12,400,000. I repeat, it does seem to me a reasonable request when gentlemen , representing both sides of 

this House on the Appropriations C<'>mmittee ask that debate on so important a measure as this shall not be restricted to less time than five 

hours for explanation and general debate. But, Mr. Chairman, in addition to the large appropriation this bill carries it contains some very 

important .new legislation. Considering the amount appropriated and 

the· character of this new legislation, it is in my j ndgment the most 

important postal appropriation bill that has ever been brongh.t before 

this House. And I will say to the gentleman from Texas that when 

he makes examination he' will discover that some at least of the important new legislatiQn in this bill is not subject to a point of order; so that he and others will be called np to vote upon their responsibility as Representatives whether some of these provisions shall be retained 

in the bill or not. . , . I wish to say further that the Committee on Appropriations has had 

no desire to introduce this class of legislation upon this bill unless it 

believed that public interest demanded s.uch action. We would have 

much preferred to confine the bill strictly to the appropriations for the 

postal seryice; but in view of the fact that the Calendar is crowded with 

business, and there is no possibility, perhaps,· of any independent bill on those subjects securing final action during this session, the committee, looking to the general interest and necessities of the pq.blic and the 

economy in the use of public money, have-thought it wise that we should meet some·of the existing. emergencies by introducing in this 

bill provisions which have been here inserted. 

Much patient labor has been bestowed by the subcommittee in the 

preparation of the bill, and the general committee has given careful con- sideration to every item it contains, either of appropriation or new legislation. Our posta.l service is necessarily growing. It annually demands 

increased expenditures. In this more than any other Department of 

the Government there is a necessityforincreased appropriations. The 

development of the country, its growth in' population and commerce, 

requiTe that we should recognize the necessity for increased postal facilities. Indeed-if no increase of the postal service was required, such a condition of things would indicate national decay instead of progress. 

The Qommittee on Appropriations in a liberal spirit have responded to 

this necessity and recommended expenditures fully large enough to 

meet every want of this branch·ofthe public service; but at the same time we have sought to avoid an. extravagant expenditure of the people's 

money. · . I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that this com- mittee has been more ~ral in its appropriations for the postal service on this bill, with few exceptions, than the Appropriations Committee of 

any Congress which has preceded it. 

I have in my hands a table of the aggregate app'!Opriations for the 

postal service since 1882, to which I wish to call attention: 

.Appropriations for the postal, service for {he fojcal years 188'2, 1883, 1884, 

1885, and atnount recon~mende&'for 1886. 

ili§Ji;;:::H:H;:;:;:::;~::;::~:::;::f~::fEEE::::;::::::::::::::.: 1 ~§ 

OFFICE OF THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL. 

..,..-

Aggregate increase 1883 oYer 1882, $3,686,468; ·increase 1883 over 

1882, 9 per cent. 

Aggregate decrease 1884 under 1883, $154,380; decrease 1884 under 

1883, t per cent. 

Aggref?3te increase 1885 over 1884, $4,550,880; increase 1885 over 1884, lOt per cent. 

Aggregate proposed increase 1886 over 1885, 3,212,800; proposed 

increase 1886 over 1885, 6! per cent. · It will be seen from these figures that in 1884, the second session of 

the last Congress, instead of increasing the appropriation, as absolutely 

required by the increasing demands of the postal service, actnally re- duced the appro.Priations below those made for the year previous. I am merely mentioning this as a matter of fact, and not for the purpose of inspiring criticism on the action of the last Congress; but I 

do feel that I aJil warranted in urging this as evidence that this Congress has not dealt with the necessities of this service in an illiberal or niggardly spirit. It will be seen from this table that in 1883 the in- crease of appropriations was 9 per cent. In 1884 the appropriations were reduced one-third of 1 per cent. below the appropriations of the 

previous year. The appropriations at the last session of this Congress were increased 10! per cent. over the year before, and the appropriatiCjlS 

of this year as authorized by this bill, increase the appropriation 6l per 

cent. 

I will remark here, 1\Ir. Chairman, before I.go further, that the reduction of postage which occurred neary two years ago did not diminish the 

receipts of the Department. There was no loss of ·revenue by the act 

of Congress which reduced the postage to 2 cents per half ounce; there was actually an increase of revenue. The deficit which occurred the 

year following was due to the fact that the expenditures were greater, 

and I am willing to confess that large expenditures were necessary to 

meet the wants of the ·service. · 

The Department this year estimates that an- aggregate appropriation 

of $56,099,169.50 should be made. The Committee on .Appropriations· 

havereduced.theamount appropriated below the estimate, to $52,253,- 200, which is $3,845,969.50 less than the estimate, . but which is 

$3,162,800 more than the amount appropt;iated for the current fiscal y~. . . . 

This estimate of over $56,000,000 included an item of about $1,100,000 

which would result from a change in the method of acCounting between 

the Pacific railroads and the Government. Heretofore the Government 

has not made an appropriation to meet the charges by the Pacific railroads for carrying the mails, but has charged it up against the account 

the Government held against them for interest on bonded indebtedness 

due the Government by the bonded roads. This year the PostmasterGeneral recommended the appropriation of a sum directly from the 

Treasury to pay the accounts of the Pacific railroad companies, which 

would swell the ~ppropriations to the extent of about $1,100,000. The 

committee deemed it to be the best policy to adhere ro the plan heretofore followed, which necessarily reduces the estimates of the Department over $1,100,000. I ask attention to the report of the committee, 

which is as follows: 

Mr. TOWNSHEND, from the C6mmit.tee IU\ Appropriations. submitted the fol- lowing report, to accompany bill H. R. 8138: "In presenting Pie bill making appropriations for the service of the Post-Office Department for the fiscal year ending June· 30, 1886, the Committee on Appro· 

pri&tions submit the following in explanation thereof: The estimates upon which ,the bill is based will be found on page 173 of the Book of Estimates, and amount to $56,099,169.50, of which sum the committee recommend $52,253,200, which is 83,845~,.969.50 less than the estimates aud $3,162,- 800 more than the amount appropriatea for the current fiscal year. The estimated revenue for the fiscal year 1886from the posta.Lservice is$51,272,- 820.24, or $980,379.76 less than the amount recommended to be appropriated. To meet this or such deficiency as may occur in the postal revenues a sum sufficient is appropriated from the Treasury. · · The following table exhibits in detail opposite each title 'the estimates for .1886, amounts recommended for 1886, appropriations for 1885, and expenditures for 1884: 

Estimated, 1886. Recommended, · ·Appropriations, lB86. 1885. Expended, 1884.. 

Mail depredations and post-office inspectors and fees t.o United States marshals and r attorneys ................................................................................ ._ ................................ . • $250, 000 00 $200,000 00 $200,000 ()() &187,686 79 Advertising ................................................................................................. : ............... . ltii.scellaneons items ...... ............................................. ................ " ................................ . 

OFFICE OF THE FIRST AS-ISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL, 

Compensation to postmasl;ers ..................................................................... ; ............... . CompellB11tion to clerks in post-offices ................................................................ _ •••... Letter~rriers and exJ)!enses free-delivery service ..................................................... . Wrapping-paper ..................................................................................................... , .... . Twine ........... _ ..................................... _ ..................................................................... . Marking, rating, and canceling sia.mps. and ink and pads ........................................ . I.ette~balances, test-weights, and scalEl9 ............................. : ....................................... . 

~ffi~ ~~::: .. ~~-~~·:.·.·::.:·::.·.:·.·:::::.::.·:.:·:::::.·.·.:·::.:·::::::.·:::.·:::::.:·:::.::·.::·.·:::. ·::::::.::::·.:·.:·:.:·.~::::::::.: 

~~u:fe~ru;'iieW:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :·:.::::::·::.·:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;:::::::::: 

20,000 ()() 

1,500 ()() 

13, 000, 000 00 5, 300, 000 ()() 

4, 535, 000 00 35,000 ()() . 95,000 ()() 

25,000 ()() 

20,000 ()() 

500,000 ()() 

40,000 ()() 

65,000 ()() 

80,000 00 

20,000 00 1,500 ()() 

12, 300, 000 00 5,100, ()()() ()() 

4,100,~ 00 35 ()() 

85:000 ()() 20,000 ()() 20,000 ()() 

490,000 ()() 

20,000 ()() 

65,000 ()() 

80,000_ ()() 

20,000 ()() 18,915 09 1,500 00 1,151 39 

11, 000, 000 00 11, 283, 830 87 

4, 900, ()()() ()() 4, 735, 008 42 

4, 050, 000 00 3,50(,206 52 so,ooo ()() 24,988 18 70,000 00 62,998 41 25;000 ()() 10,670 82 25,000 ()() 19,998 35 480,000 ()() 430,29-i 58 40,000 00 9,690 96 65,000 00 59,968 23 80,000 00 57,318 99 
1885. OONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. 1423 

Table showing estimates and ainount recommended for 1886, appropriation for 1885, and expenditures for 1884.-Conti.nued. 

E8tltnated, I Recommended, . App~~tions, Expended, 1886. 1886. ISM. 

1-

OFFICE OF THE SECOJ!i"D ASSISTAli""T P~TMASl.'ER-GENERA.L. 

~i.~~-~~~::~~~~~\\~~:\:(:l:~\~\\\:\:~:::~·~\:·::::\\~:.:::::.~: $15, 684, 200 00 $1.5, 265, 000 00 $12, 750, 000 00 812, 131, 950 3IS 

615,000 00 615,000 00 ,625,000 00 576,270'41 

5, 900, 000 00 5, 700, 000 00 5, 600, 000 00 5,074,16416 

1, f!15, 000 00 ............................... 1, 625, 000 00 1,571S,OOO 00 266,764·50 .......... 4;4B2:aoo·oo· 250,000 ()() 184,821 2-i 

4, 682, 300 00 4, 300, 000 00 3,971.,3M20 

111ail messengers ................................................................................. , ......................... . 975,000 00 975,000 00 975,000 00 824,839 70 20,000 00 20,000 00 25,000 00 18,226 00 ~~-~:: ::dd!!fi~~g~~h~;~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 275,000 00 275,000 00 250 000 00 217,052 09 

:llliscellaneous items ...................... ,. .............................................................................. . 1,000 00 1,000 00 1;ooo oo 396~ 

OFFICE OF THE THffiD ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GElli'ERAL. 

~~:==~s~g~~~:Y::.:::·:::.:·.:·.·:::.::·.::::·:::::: :«:::::::::.:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Stamped envelopes and newspaper wrappers ............................................................. . 

$174,000 00 8174,000 00 $146,000 00 $135,974 47 8,100 00 8, 100 00 8,100 00 6,757 49 749,000 00 749,000 00 6«,000. 00 619,23121 

Stamped-envelope agency ........................................................................................... . 16,000 00 16,000 00 16,000 00 15,35172 

Post.a.l cards ... ~ ............................................................................................................ . 239,000 00 239,000 00 232,000 00 197,466 33 Postal-<mrd agency .......... : ........................................................................................... . Register envelopes, locks, seals, post-office and dead-letter .envelopes ...................... .. 7,300 00 7,300 00 7,&00 00 .6,822 70 140,000 00 140,000 00 14.0,000 00 102,830 88 Ship, steamboat, and wayletters ................................................................................. . Engraving, printing, and binding drafts and warrants .............................................. . 2,000 00 2,000 00 1,500 00 1,614 88 2,000 00 2,000 00 2,500 00 .1,962 35 Miscellaneo'us items ................................. ~ ........................................ : ........................ .. 1, 000 00 1,000 00 1,000 00 201-0i> 

OFFICE OF SUPERINTENDENT OF FOREIGN MAILS. 

=:t~i~:!~~~::t~£~~~~:~~~~-~=::.:-:-.:::;::::::::::: ~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ··· ·· ······ -~-~-- ········· __ .._··-~-~~_.:_~_ .. _ .. _~_ .. _· ----425-75_4,_:a __ ~- -·-.. _ .. _ .. _ .. _ .. _ .. _· .. &_·~--~--:·=_ .. _ .. _ ..~-=-~ Total ............................................. .............. ,................................ ........................ 56,099,169 50 52, 253, 200 00 49, 090, 400 00 

Est~ted amount of revenues for 1886 ........ .' .............. : ....................... , ........ : ................... ...................... -.: ....................................... ................ ... ............ $51,272,820 24 

ITEMS INCREASED. 

~t~lir~~~-~:::·::::::::::::::::::::::::::·:·:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::~:::::: $l ~:5 ~:nit~~~~~~~~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: lg: ~ 

· iE!~~~~~if~~~~::~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::-::::::::::::::::::::::::::-: · r~:5 Postal clerks ........................ , ............................................. :.................. 182,300 

5t.:e¥.:.;:::::::::::::·:·:::~::::··::::;:;:·:::·::::::::::::·:::~:::::·:::::·:·:·:::;:::::::~: ,~: m ~~J~Jrs~~ ... ~~~r.:~~-~~~~~~~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 545, ~ 

· Total .................... : ..................... , .................................................. 5, 092, 300 

IT.E!lS DECREASED. 

f:ti;-:n~l~;::. &c.~.~~~~~~ ~-~:.::::::::::::::::.·:::::::::::::::::::::::.:·:::::::: Office furniture .................................................................................... .. Steamboat transportation ........ ;; ......................................................... . Postal-car service ............................................................................... " 

~il~~~~~;;;;;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : Delegates to postal-union convention ............ : .................................... . 

5,000 

5,000 

20,000 

10,000 

1,625,000 

250,000 

5,000 

4,500 

---- Total .......................................................... -........ .......................... 1, 929, 500 

New legisl&tion is contained in the bill as follows. On page 3, lines 43 to 53: 

"That hereafter. the Postmaster-General may lease premises for use for postoffices of the first and second classes at a reasonable annual rental, to be paid quarterly j but no lease shall be made for a term exceeding five years; and 

whenever any building or part of a building under lease becomes unfit for use as a post-office no rent shall be paid until the same shall be put in a. satisfactory condition by the owner thereof for occupation as a post-office, or the lease may be canceled, at the option of the Postmaster-General; and a lease shall cease and terminate when~ver a. post-office can be moved into a Governmen~ build- ing. ' . 

• * • * * * • On pages 4 to 7, lines 01 to 153: 

"That the Postmaste~enera.l.isauthorized and directed to readjust the com- pensation to be pa.i.d for the transportation or the mails on railroad routes upon t)le condition and at the rat-es hereinafter mentioned, and which shall take eft'ect 

Julyl\1885: "'First. That the mails shall be carried upon any train at the request of the 

Postmaster-General; and railroad compa.ilies shall provide necessary depot- rooms, with heat and light for the same, shall receive the mails from and deliver 

the mails to the Post-Office Department at depots1 shall put the mails into and out of'the carst shall transfer the mails between traiDS at depots, and shall trans- port the Supermtendent and assistant superintendents of the railway mail serv- toe and post-office inspectors upon the exhibition of their credentials, and railway postal clerks over the lines upon which they may be assigned to duty. "'Second. That the compensation for cauying closed mails in baggage cars and for railway post-office service, the ~mum car width in every case being hereby fixed at eight feet and six inches (inside measurement), or its equivalent in fioor-space, shall not exceed the following rates, namely: For closed mails, 5 mills per linear foot of space (inside measurement) per mile run; and for two hundred pounds of mail or less the equivalent of six linear inches shall be required, 

for five hundred pounds one foot, and for each additional five hundred pounds one foot. For rail way post-office service, at a mteof speed of twenty or less miles per 

hour from terminus to terminus, five mills per linear foot of space (inside meas- urement) per mile run; and for each additional two miles per hour to and including thirty miles per hour one-tenth of a mill, and for each additional mile 

per hour one-tenth of a ~ilL And the adjustment of space by linear feet for 

railway p<)st-office service shaH be as follows: For a daily average of from 

twenty-five ~ five hundred pounds of mail, no~ to exceed thirteen feet.; from 

five hundred to 1,000 pounds, not to exceed fifteen feet: from 1,000 to 2,000 pounds, not to exceed twenty-five feet; from 2,000 to 4,000 pounds, not to exceed forty feet; from 4,000 to 5,000 pounds, not to exceed forty-five feet; for 6,000 pounds; fifty feet; 8,000 pounds, sixty feet ; the weigbt to be ascertained by a weighing of not less than twenty-eight consecutive days; and in all' railway post-offices the load shall not exceed double the greatest weight-for the respective lengtQs as herein provided; and for any gross weight, if carried on two or more t-ra.ina 

daily, the space may be subdivided upon the basis of amounts of space for lower 

weights as the nature of the service may require; and no additional space shall 

be required or paid for unless folind to be necessary: Provided,· That the pay for 

the transportation of mails upon any railroad route for six round trips per week 

shall not be less than $35' per mile per annum; and at any post-office contigu- ous to a. railroa~ route, and where trains do not make regular stops, the Post: 

master-General may require that the mails shall be exchanged directly with the 

railway post-office at the nearest available point upon the track; and in the case of all special mail trains no more time shall be consumed at terminal points in 

transferring mails between different lines of railroads at such terminal points than is absolutely necessary for such purpose1 and there shall be no delay in departure of any special mail train after l'eceivmg the mail from the connecting line than is absolutely necessary ; and at post-offices located not more than one· fourth of a mile from railroad stations, railroad companies shall also provide for 

carrying the mails as often as may be necessary between such post-o.ftlces and 

railroad stations; but the Pos~master-General qlay provide mail-messenger or contract service at terminals: P,·ovidedfurtlu:r, Tha~ railroad companies whose 

railroads were constructed in whole or in part by land grants made by Congress; on the condition that the mails should be transported over their roads at such 

price as Congress should by law direct, and the railroad companies incorporated under the provisions of an act entitled' An act to aid in the construction of a mil~ 

road and telegraph line from the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean, and to~ 

cure to the Government the use of the same for postal, military, and other pur~ 

poses,' approved July 1, 1862, shall hereafter receive for the transportation of the mails over their re.spective railroads only 80 per cent. of the compensation a.u! 

thorized by this act; and the said act approved July 1 1862, and all acts amend,_! 

atory thereof, are hereby amended to conform to the foregoing provisions; but 

the rightofthe United States to further amend said act, or any act amendatory 

thereof, is expressly reserved. All acts and parts of acts ineonsistent or in con- fiict with the provisions of tbis act are hereby repealed.' " 

•. • * * . • • * 

On page 7, lines 1.56 to 162: . "The Postmaster-General is aut-horized to contract for inland and foreign. steamboat mail service, when it can be combined in one route1 where the foreigti' 

office or offices are not more than two hundred miles distant rrom the domestic 

office, ~n the same terms and conditions as inland steamboat service, and pay for the same out or the appropriation for inland steamboat service." 

On page 8, lines 181 to 202: "That upon all matter of the first class, as defined by chapter 180 of the laws of 

Congress, approved March &, 1879, entitled 'An act making appropriations for 

the service of the Post-Office Department for the tlsca.l year ending June 30, lS!K), and for other purposes,' and by that act declared subject to postage at the rate of 3 cents for each half-ounce or fraction thereof, postage shall be charged, on and afte.r the 1st day of July, 1885, at the rate. of 2 cents for each. ounce or frac- tion thereof; and upon all matter of the second class, as defined by said act and 

by that act declared subject to postage at the rate of 2 cents for each pound or fraction thereof, shall be charged, on and .after the 1st day of July, 1885 except as provided in section 25 of said act, approved March 3, 1879, 1 cent for ;;;;h. pound · or fraction thereof; and all acts, so far as they fix a dift'erent rate of postage than 

herein provided upon such first and second class matter, are to that extent hereby repealed on and after July 1, 1885. " • * • • • * . • 

On pages 10 and 11, lineS 224 to 252, in lieu of the usual paragraph providing for 

the transportation or foreign mailsl there is inserted the followmg: 

"For transportation of mails on xoreign steampships and for foreign administration for intermedia.:wy, territorial, and sea transit offoreign mails, 8370,000. 

"For transporting the mails of the United States in American steamships be- tween any port of the United States and any foreign port, or between ports of 

the Atlantic and ports of the Pacific touching at any foreign port, an amount not 
1424 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

exeeedingiOOQ,OOO of the net revenues of the Post-Office Department of the United 

States on mail matter sent t{) foreign countries during the fiscal year next pre- ceding the date of the oontract for said service: P.rovi<Ud, That the contract for 

said service shall be entered into by the Postmaster-GeneraJ, only a.fter lega1 

advertisement with the lowest responsible bidder, for a tel'm not exceeding four years, and at a rate not to exceed 50 cents per mile on the trip each way of act- ual nautical miles traveled· between terminal ports for each trip actually made, 

which shall not be increased on account of expedition or increased number of · trips: Provi<Udfurther, That the general laws regulating the transportation of 

inland mails shall be applicable to such contracts except as herein provided: 

.And rrrovidtdfurther, That vessels engaged in this service shall be of American 

registry, and shall in time of war be liable to charter or purchase by the United 

States at reasonable rates. and all laws and parts of laws in confiict with the 

provisions of this act be, and the same are hereby, repealed; and this act shall 

take effect from and after J u.I_y _1, ~li85." 

• • • • * • • 

On pages 12 and 13, sections 3 to 6: " SEo. 3. That a. special stamp of t-he face valuation of 10 cents may Qe provided 

and issued, whenever deemed advisable or expedient, in such form and bearing 

such device as may meet the approval of tbePostmast.er-General, which, when 

attached toaletter1 in addition to the lawful postage thereon1 the delivery of 

which is to be at arree-deliveryoffice, or at any city, town, or village containing a population of 4,000 or over, according to the last Federal census, shall be re- garded a.s entitling such letter t{) immediate delivery within the carrier limit 

of any free~elivery office which ·may 'be designated by the Postmaster-General as a special~elivery office, or within one mile of the post-"office at any other 

office coming within the provisions of this section which may in like manner be designated as a special~elivery office. 

"SEc. 4. That such specially stamped letters shall be delivered from 7 o'clock ante meridian up to 12 o'clock mjdnightat offices designated by the Postmaster- General under secUon 3 of this act. . . . "SEC. 5. That to provide for the immediate delivery ofletters bearing the special. stamp, the postmaster at any office which may come within the provisions of 

this act may, wi.th the approv8J of the Postmaster-General, employ such person or persons as may actually be required for such service, who, upon the delivery 

of such letter, will procure a receipt from the party addressed, or some one au- -thorized to receive it, in a book to be furnished for the purpese, which shall, 

when not in use, be kept in the post-office, and at all times subject to examina--

tion by an inspector of the Department. 

"BEO. 6. That to provide for the payment of such persons a.s may be employed 

for this service, the postmaster at any office designated by section 3 of this net shall keep a record of the number of letters received at such office bearing such 

special irtainp, which number shall correspond with the number entered in the 

receipt.books heretofore specified; and at the end of each month he may pay to such person or persons employed a sum not exceedil)g 80 per cent. of the face 

value of all such stamps received and recorded during that month: Pr011ided, 

That in no caBe shall the compensation so paid to any dDe person ~ceed $30 per month: .And provicUd further, That nothing in this act shall in any way interfere 

with the prompt delivery of letters as now provided by law or regulation of the 

Post-Office Depart-ment.'' 

. Mr. Chairman, I am convinced if this bill be adopted in its pre8ent 

form it will . carry every dollar that is needed for the public serviceevery aolla.r that will be required to conduet the postal service efficiently 

and up to the full requirement of wants of the people. 

There may be ~difference of opinion by gentlemen as to how much 

may be needed under .specific items in this bill as to whether in some instances· we have allowed enough or not, but my investigations-have 

convinced me that every dollar P!Operly needed for the posta.l.service 

is provided in this bill. But a.side,-1\Ir. Chairman, from the fact that 

this bill carries the large amount I have indicated, much of the importance of this bill is due to the changes it provides in our postal laws. 

The conunittee- would have much preferred, as I have already stated, 

that such legislation should have- been left to separate and independent 

measures, but the glut· of impo:x:tant business before this House renders 

it necessary that these provisions shoUld be placed in this bill, or they 

wm undoubtedly fail of enactment during this Congress. The committee, regarding m~t of these provisions as being essential to an eco- nomical and proper administration of this service, have therefore authorized them to be incorporated into this bill. 

The greatest change in the law which this bill seeks to accomplish is 

that of the method of compensation for the railway mail serVice. This 

is the most difficUlt problem which ever perplexed the officials in the 

Post-Office Department. It has puzzled the Department for over forty 

years. The p1·esent and former laws on this subject have beei;l found 

crude, incongruous, and in many instances extra.va.ga.nt, glaringly un- just to the Government, while in some instances injustice has resulted 

to 'tlie railroad companies. . 

Congress for -the first time recognized the railways as carriers of the 

mails in 1838, when it enacted a law authorizing the Postmaster-Geneial 

to cause the mails to be transported by railroads, provided he should 

not be required topaymore than 25percent. over what was being paid 

to.the s~e coaches. This was the earliest recognition of the element 

of speed m fixing the compensation for ·carrying the mails, .it being 

then determined that higher pay at the rate of 25 per cent. should be 

allowed for the more expeditions mode of transporting the mails than · by the slow coach. . · 

I shall not now detain the House withadiscussionofformer laws, as I shall present a document which will furnish a full and clear history of. 

the nature and op~ations of the former as well as the pr-esent and proposed law. It is a report that was prepared by a co~on appointed 

in pursuance of the act of March 3, 1883. This document deals with 

the whole subject ably and exhaustively. It furirishes evidence ofpatient, laborious, and thoughtful work, mid should be read and swdied by 

every member of Congress. . A study of the former and of the present law shows that the compensation for conveying the mails on the railways is dependent largely upon 

the discretion of the Postmaster-General. Under the exercise of that _discretion gross.injustice both to t:he Government and the roads has 

resulted. In some instances the compensation is much larger than it 

should have been, while in others it has been too low. No doubt much 

of this has been due to mistake, but often to pressure from individual 

railroad companies, and perhaps in some instances to favoritism. The 

act of March 3, 1873, now in force, brought about much improvement by 

prescribing even rates of pay for a like daily average weight of mail 

canied, but it is defective in essential particulars-. It leaves unwise 

discretion to the Postmaster-General, w hicliis subject to abuse and mis- take,~nd is not thought to be much in advance of the previous law. 

The law at present makes the. following provision for compensation 

to railroads for carrying the mails: 

Averoge weight of mail whol ·stance per day. 

"-<tJ ~ 

~£ ~~ ~~ ::d3 

-o .. s:: 

s:: ... ~8. ~o.l:i ia:5 Q1 • 

~~~ .... ...,. ~ ..... 

~a~ P-40 ~ 

$5000 $-12 75 75 00 6413 100 00 8550 125 00 106 ·88 150 00 128 25 175"00 14963 200 00 17100 

~~~~~~i.;,:;;;;;;,:::;;:;;,:~jf.:~~~~:~~~:~~~::;;;;:;~::;;:;;: 1,500 to 2,000 pounds daily .... ................................. ~ ..........• , .. . 2,000 to 3,500 pounds dnily ..................................................... . 3,500 to 5,000 pounds daily .. : ..........••........•......................•....... 

COMPENSATION FOR RAILWAY POSTAL CARS. 

Railway post.office cars, 48 feet, per. daily line .... : ........................... ~ .............. $25 

Railway wst:office cars,4.') feet, per daily line................................................ 30 

Railway post-office cars, 50 feet, per daf\y line................................................ 40 

Railway post-office cars, 5S to 60 feet, per daily line........................................ 50 

·From this it will be seen that under the present la;. the only element 

considered in fixing railway-mail pay is weigbt, mth an additional 

allowance where a large daily average of mail requires it for rent of 

postal cars. The commission to which I have referred in t~eir report set forth. 

the practical objections to the present Jaw~ follows: 

First. Thegreatvolume of postal transportat-ion is performed incarsorapart,. ments and a(l(:X)mpanied by clerks . . Under the law there is no discriniina.tion 

between service so rendered and closed mails carried in bulk in baggage cars. It is therefore to the interest of the railroad companies to provide the least pos- sible space accommodation for the mails. 

Second. The matter of frequency is covered by the indefinite expression" due 

frequency." Prnctically there is no discrimination, where the same weight of 

mail is carried, between cars or apartmentsl with clerks, run six, seven, twelve, or fourteen round trips per week, the less uequent securing the same rate a.s the most frequent. 

Third. The matter of speed is disposed of in the expression "due frequency 

and speed." Under this law the speed with which the mails are carried, though a feature of great value to the public, has rio effect on the rate of pay. . Fourth. The size of cars or apartments to be used is provided for by the following phrase: , "Sufficient and suitable room, fixtures, and furniture, in a car or apartment 

properly lighted and warmed, shall be provided for route-agents to accompany and distribute the mails." 

All oft.his is insufficient and too indefinite to be continued nsthe expression of 

the requirements of the Post-Office Department with regard to the 115,000 miles 

of postal service. · , Fifth. Specific allowance for railway post-offices is an entirely unreasonable 

method of compensating for the service required. There is no reason known 

why ftf'teen, twenty-five, or thirty feet of interior car space used for mails and ·clerks should not be made the occasi.on of specific allowance. if forty, fifty, and 

sixty feet cars, used in precisely the same manner, are so treated. 

* * • "' "' • "' 

Seventh. The present method is further defective because of the great inequality existing in many cases between. the weights carried and the apartments 

provided. 

An analysis of the tables accompanying the report of the Postmaster-General, 

showing the daily weights on all the roads in the United States, with. the size 

of the apartment corresponding, will reveal such incongruities as the following: On oneroa.dadaily weightoftwo hundredpoundsofm~il is carried in an apart- ment seven feet long; on another road the same weight is·carried in an apart- ment thirteen feet long. On one road four hundred pounds of mail daily are carried in an a.parLment eight feet long, while another road carries the same weight of mail in an apartment sixteen feet Ion~. On one road seven hundred 

pounds of mail are carried in an apartment mne feet long, while on another 

road the same daily average weight of mail is carried in an apartment forty-two 

feet long. Either in the one case the space provided is too small. or in the other case it is too large. In any case a system which would equalize the amount of space as related to weight would manifestly be an improvement upon the pres- ent methods. 

These objectionable features the conn!littcc hope to avoid in the scheme pro- posed and herewith submitted. · · · 

The magnitude towhich the vast appropriationsforthe railwaymail 

sendee has grown and its rapid increase should arrest the attention of 

every Representative here, the largest single item of expenditure being 

for the transportation of the mails on railroads. · The report to which I have referred shows thatIn the year 1842 t}lere were but 3,oo0 miles of railroad service, at an annual 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL REQORD-HOUSE. 1425 

cost of about $400,000. ·In 1853 there were about 12,000 miles of railroad service, 

costing $1,600,000. The year 1883 shows a railway postal service 110,000 miles in. 

length, at a. cost of about $13,800,000, the increase in 1883 being equal to the en- tire postal service by railtoad in 1853. 

Each decade has doubled the mil way service from its establishment, and if the present rate of increase should be maintained, and the present methods of 

pay continuetl, the year 1900 would show u. eervice by rail of at least 200,000 

miles, at an annual cost of not far from $25,000,000. 

It exceeds the total annual revenues of the Federal Government un- der the administration of John Quincy .A. dams. 

]{ow what is desired is to establish a basis of competition which will secure efficiency at such a rate of pay as will be just to the railroads 

and the Government. 

The commission report that a rate of pay which will, in general, 

yield the railroad companies carrying the mail a. return per car per 

mile run not differing materially in amount from the returns now re- ceived by these corporations for running their passenger trains can not 

be other tlmn just and reasonable. I think such a rate too liberal, be- cause the accommodations, expense, and liabilities of the mail cars are far less than the passenger, and approximate nearer that of ~xpress. 

The commission says a careful analysis of the returns of all the railroads 

in the United States shows that the average receipts from passenger 

trains running at the ordinary rate of twenty miles per hour between 

terminals is about 5 mills for each linear foot of car space per mile run, or 26 cents per mile of a car fifty feet in length. It also recommends 

that for railway post-office service only this rate be increased one- tenth of a mill for each two miles increase of speed per hour from twenty 

to thirty miles, and one-tenth of a mill more for each mile per hour in 

excess of thirty miles. . The only objections which have been found to exist in this scheme are that the rates agreed upon by the commission would result in giving too much to the largest roads and not enough to the smaller lines. 

To obviate this the committee- has recommended that the rates be re- duced to 4 mills per linear foot per mile, and that the rate for speed 

above thirty miles per hour be made uniform 'vith that aJlowed for 

rates of speed between twenty and thirty miles per hour; or, in other 

words, one-tenth of 1 mill for each additional two miles of speed per 

hour above thirty~ well as between twenty aud thirty mil~ per hour, 

and in order to provide ample compensation to the smaller roads we have provided that the minimum compensation to any road shall not 

be less thon $40 per mile. 

In looking over the table of rates of compensation per mile of railroads of the United States, I find that not more than some half dozen of 

them receive a compensation lower· than $42.75 per mile per ton. We 

have made the minimum limit $40 per mile. We think that sum will 

sufficiently protect the smaller roads, and give them ample remuner- ation. The provision in this bill providing increased compensation for 

increased speed above twenty miles per hour supersedes· the necessity 

for any specific allowance for special fast-mail facilities, asyou will dis.! cover by examining the tables which the officials of the Post-Office Department have furnished to me, and wnich will be appended to my re- marks, with directions for making proper computations under the terms 

of this bill. 

This new scheme will secure efficiency in the service and present a uniform and systematic plan of compensation, which will be just and 

equitable to the railroads, and will at lea.st result in an annual saving 

to the Government of over $1,500,000. 

The late Second .Assistant Postmaster-General Lyman, in a letter to 

the Committee on the Post-9ffice and Post-Roads, said: 

Having participated in the preparation of the scheme emliod.ied in the recom- mendations of the committee, I can speak with some degree of positiveness con- cerning it, and have to say that the rate of pay adopted as the ipitial basis of 

compensation, i.e., 25 cents per mile run for cars fifty feet in length, is, in my opinion, not only o. fair proposition 1 but is also the only just and practicable bar- sis of payment for the peculiar serv1ce required by the Post-Office Department. Under the plan proposed, compensation would be made according to the amount nnd character of the service rendered in each case; and the result wonld 

be to decrease the cost of transportation by railroad per annum $1,687,980. 

The change which we make of rates· recoiD.lllended by the committee 

will result in a much larger saving. Af3 I have said, the allowance for 

speed renders specificappropriationsforspecial fast-mail facilities unnec- essary, and therefore we have omitted such from this bill. 

This undeniably presents a principle which will be just, uniform, 

efficie.Q.t, and economical. The only question to be solved is to establish proper rates. The recommendations of the commission in its r.e. 

port are: 

The committee would, in conclusion, respectfully recommend as follows : (1.) That the compensation to the railroads for carrying the mails shall be determined upon the basis of the space used and the frequency and speed with 

which the mails are con>eyed. · (2.) That the space factor shall be determined by the Postmaster-General, in 

view of the needs of the service, modified by the weight and frequency of the 

mails ; that the speed factor shall be determined by the schedules of the various 

railroads, in connection with the official reports of the 1·ailway mail service. 

(3.) That the pay for all mail transportation shall hereafter be at a fixed ru.te 

per 1 in ear foot of car per mile run. This rate to cover the entire cost of the serv- ice, furniture and fixtures in the car, transportation of postal clerks, &c. .- (4.) That the Postmaster-General may at any tim'e order an increase or a re- duction in tho amount of space to be paid for, if, after a weighing, it be fonnd 

that there has been a sufficient increase or diminution in the amount of ma]ls 

transported on any railroad t-o require the same. (5.) The closed or pouch mails, now carried in express or baggage cn.r, with- out postal clerks accompanying them, requiring no space for distribution en ~·oute, shall be paid for on the following-basis, viz: the aggregate weight of the 

closed or pouch mails carried on any road on all trains for twenty-four hours 

shall be made the basis of pay1 and this aggregate weight reduced to an equiva- lent in linear feet of ror space m the following proportions: · Two hundred pounds of mail or less shall be rated as the equivalent of six 

linear inches to be paid for at the rate of 5 mills per liuear foot per mile run, · Five hun<h'ed pounds of mail shall be rated as one linear foot, and for each _ additional five hundred pounds one linear foot of car space shall be allowed, 

with the proviso that the pay for transportation of mails upon any 1·ailroad route for six round trips per week shall not be less thau $35 per mile per annum. (7.) That the pay for railway post-offices, at a speed of twenty or less miles per 

hour between termini, beG mills per ·linear foot, inside measurement, of car space per mile run,-ana for each increase of speed amounting to two miles per hour up to and including thirty miles per hour one-tenth of a mill; i.e., twenty- two miles per hour, 5.1 mills; twenty-four miles per hour, 5.2 mills; twenty-six miles per hour, 5.3 mills; twenty-eight miles· per hour, !>.4 mills; thirty miles 

per hour, 5.:>; and for each additional mile per hour, one-tenth of a mill. 

And it is further recommended that in the adjustment of space by linear feet 

for railway post-offices a daily average of500 pounds of mail or less shall be en- titled to pay for space not to exceed thirteen feet. From 500 to 1,000 pounds, 

space not to exceed fifteen feet. From 1,000 to 2,000 pounds, space not. to exceed 

twenty-five feet. From 2,000 to 4,000 pounds, space not lo exceed forty feet. 

And we recommend that no change in the allotment of space shall be made 

until the average weight reaches 6,000 pounds. For 6,000 pounds! fifty feet; for 

8,000 pounds, sixty feet-the weight t-o be ascertained by a weighmg of not less 

than thirty consecutive days; and no additional space shall be paid for unle88 

it is found to be necessary._ In all railway post-offices the load should not exceed double the greatest weight specified for the respective lengths, and for any g-ross weight carried on two or more trains daily the space may be subdivided upon the gradients of 

space for. lower weights, as tbe nature of the service may require; wit-h the further provision {bat the Postmaster-General may increase the compensation 

upon any railroad route not to exceed 50 per cent. per annum for special mail 

trains performing service upon schedules fixed by him. In all these estimates 

the minimum car width should be fixed at eight feet six inches, inside meas· urement. · 

In order· that gentlemen may make proper investigation of the cost 

of the service under the proposed law and be enabled to readily make 

comput.1.tions with the data furnished in the reports accompanying that 

of the Postmaster-General, I will now call their attention to a rule for 

computation ana tables of comparison of the cost or'the service under 

the present and proposed law at the rates of 4 mills per mile run and 

5 mills per mile ron and rates of speed as therein specified: 

Cost of carrying tlte mail on railroad-s on basis of 4 ntills per mile rtin at twenty miles or less per lwur, with an allowance of one-tenth of a . mill for 

ever-y two miles per hour additional speed, compared witlt cost under present law. 

D a i 1 y average weight of mail 

carried whole 

distance 

ways). 

(both 

200 pom:ids ........ . 00() pounds ........ , 000 pounds ........ ,000 pounds ........ , 500 pounds ........ , 000 pounds ........ , 000 pounds ........ 

1 

2 

3 

5 

6 

8 , 000 pounds ........ 

I 

Present po.y per mile per annum. 

<D'd • a..<!)Q) 

€!~;§ 

~ -;::::: ~ 

"GS wcrJ:; ~ Os:l'O Iii p.~ 

'"' 1-<..:::l'"' 0 0 ~ ~~8. E-1 ------- ----

$4.2 75 ............ $42 75 

64 13 ············ 64 13 

8550 ............ 8550 

128 25 ·f25·oo· 1.2825 

14963 174 63 

171 00 3000 201 00 

181 69 40 00 221 69 

203 06 0000 2:>3 06 

XVI-90 

G) 

c:,) 

CIS 

~ 

~ ~~ 

onP. ..... 

.£ ~rll~ ~ S"-'o ~ o,!!,q 

~ .,. Q) ----

c:: 4 mills. ~ ------

13 ""832'{55' 

15 3756 

25 62 60 

40 100 16 

4.5 112 68 

50 1.25 20 

60 150 24 

Cost per mile p&r annum, at various rates of speed, for six round trips per week. 

... ... ... '"' '"' '"' '"' ... '"' '"' <!) <!) t> ~ c:,) c:,) ~ <!) <!) <!) 

P.. P.. ~,.; P.. p. • P.. P.. C., P.. c.. on:.. lllk "''"' "''"' "''"' Ill .. 111 ... 

,!1::1 "''"' ~~ £5 ~5 Gl:;j ~::::! ~::::! Q>:;:! Q):;:! ~::::! 

·- 0 :;:lo = 0 . ],g ]] :;:::o S.r:l a..c; a..c; 8..::l 8..::l S..::l ]] ]] ~ """ co 00 ~ ~ ~ ~ 00 1:'1 C'l 1:'1 (') ~ -------- ------.------ --------

4.1mills. 4.2mills. 4.3mills. 4.4mills. 4.5mills. 4.6mills. 4.7mills. 4.8mills. 4..9mills. 5 mills. 

----------------------·----------------

""$33'36' ''""$34'17' ""'$34'99" .... ~"80' ""$3'6'62' '""i37'43' """$38'24' ""ti39'06' ""$3'9"87' ...... iio'69 38 4.9 39 43 40 37 41 31 4225 43 19 4-113 45 07 46 01 46 9:). 

6416 65 73 67 29 6886 70 42 71 99 · 73 55 75 12 76 68 78 25 

102 66 105 16 107 67 no 17 11268 llG 18 117 68 120 19 

~~ I 125 20 

115 49 118 31 12113 1.2394 12G 76 129 G8 132 39 135 21 140 85 

1.2833 131 46 134 59 137 72 140 85 143 98 14711 150 24 153 37 156 50 

1G3 99 157 75 161 50 165 26 169 02 172 77 1';6 53 180 28 184. 04 187 80 
1426 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

Oost of caffYing tnail on rat1roads at rates ftxed bJJ bill H. B. 8138. 

Present pay per mile of 8 Cost per mile per annum, at various rates of speed, six rounds trips per week. 

route per annum. & 

Ill J.<k k k .. .. J.< k ~ ~ k ... Daily average J.< oou ou Q) 8.. ou Q) 8.. ou Q) 

~~. ~ •"' "'. "'. "'. "'. "'· "'· Q. 

weight of· mail "'· ;~ lllk 

~g IIIJ.< 

~g lllk lllk cnr.. cnr.. It) ... .,,.. carried whole .... Q) .. 

~g Q);::l 

~g Q);::l ,!!l::S ~g ~g Q):;:l 

~ 0 ]m::s ::::o ::::o dista.noo (both Gi~; ~ ·a-8 ::::o ouo S-" a,~:~ SA SA a,~:~ a.Q s,l:l SA S..Q ways). ~~-; ,a. g-"' g: """ ID ao i ~ ~ tO ~ 0 ou :a ~ « « C') ...,. ~ Qoep·'tl Q) 

.. r..A~ 3 0 ~~"' 0 ~ 5 mills. 5.1m.ills. 5.2mills. 5.3mills. 5,{mllls. 5.5mills. 5.7mills. 5.9mills. 6.lmills. 6.3mills. 6.5ml!ls fi:t Cot 

200pounds ......... $4275 ............ $4275 

500pounds ......... 6413 ............. 6413 ""13' ""340'69' ""'&41"50' ''"842'31' ""843'13' ''''1(3'94' ""844'75' '"'846'38' .... &4s'ol' ""8(9'6(' '"'$51'26' ""''852"'' 89 

00 

72 

7! 

1,000 pounds ......... 8550 ............ 8550 .15 46 95 47 88 4882 1, 500 pounds ...... ,_ 106 88 .-........... 106 88 25 78 25 79 81 8138 2, 000 pounds ......... 128 25 ·i25·oo· 128 25 ~ 78 25 79 81 8138 3,500 pounds ......... 14963 174 63 40 125 20 127 70 130 20 5, 000 pounds .......... 17100 3000 20100 45 140 85 143 66 14648 6,000 pounds ......... 18169 4..0 ()() 22169 50 156 50 159 63 162 76 8, 000 pounds ......... 203 06 5000 253 06 60 187 80 191 _56 195 31 

To ascertain the cost per linear foot per mile per annum, the rate per 

linear foot per mile run being given, multiply the rate per linear foot 

per mile run by 2. (which product is the rate for one mile and back), 

multiply t~t product by 313 (the number of round trips in.a year), 

and the product will be the cost per linear foot per mile per annum. for 

six times a week service at twenty miles per hour speed. 

To ascertain the cost per mile per annum ·Of any given road, multiply the cost per linear foot per mile per annum by the number of lin- ear feet of space furnished. . Now, Mr. Chairman, I shall not occupy further time in describing 

the new plan that has been suggested. It is not a new thought. It is a subject that was introduced in the Forty-fourth Congress-a proposition somewhat like this, though materially different ,in important 

details. It, however, would have resulted in larger expenditure and 

lacked the degree of order and system of the proposed plan. It was then discussed, but was rejected. , The necessity for a change in the present law induced Congress to 

pass the ac~ ~f 1\Iarch 3, 1883, appointing a commission of experts to 

devise a plan.which would cure the defects of the present law. 

That commission consisted of D. A. Elmer, the late Second Assistant 

Postmaster-General; W. B. Thompson, the late .Superintendent of the 

Railway Mail Service, and now Second Assistant Postmaster-General, 

and Mr. Isaac C. Slater, all of them gentlemen of large experience and 

well qualified for this service. That committee had at their command a large force of very capable and experienced clerks. They entered into a correspondence with others who had experience and most knowledge on the subject. They sought and obtained a vast amount of statistics 

and information from railroad officials, and after they hadgatheredinformation and statistics from every quarter where it was obtainable 

they labored upon -the problem for some eight months and formulated 

this proposition which we have incorporated in this bill. Those gentlemen then declared and still declare that if this scheme is adopted in 

the shape· they•recommend it will result in an annual saving to the 

Government of over a million and a half of dollars. · The proposition comes to us recommended by that commission of ex- -perts, and recommended by every officer of the Post-Office Department, 

from the Postmaster-General down to the lowest who haB anything to do 

with this branch of the post& service. It haB been stUdied and recom- mended by the Committee on Post-Offices and Post-Roads of the Senate and House. In the last session, when _preparing the postal bill of 

that session, I was called on to investigate this scheme with a view to 

recommending it to the Committee on Appropriations. But I did not 

have time to ascertain what would be its effects; and fearing it might 

result in an increase rather than a diminution of the cost of the postal 

service I declined to recommend it. Since then I have had better opportunity to study it, and I feel now -convinced it will be-well for the 

Government and the facility of the service that it should be adopted. 

It is true that we can not fully determine what may be its exact re- sults. It is probable that by_experience we may discover defects in it. 

But we can never find out the· defects or value of any scheme for this 

purpose until we test it by experience. Therefore I have concluded it 

is the best policy that it should during the next year be put in operation, and as we hereaft~r may discover defects they can be remedied. 

How much further time have I? · The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman has occupied thirty minutes. 

M.r. TOWNSHEND. I wish now to speak of some other features of 

the bill. 

Another feature, Mr. Chairman, that we have introduced into this 

bill changing the present law is an increase in the period for which 

the Postmaster-General is permitted to lease buildings for the use of 

post-offices of the first and second classes. Under the present law he is 

limited to a term of one year. It is believed by all who have considered the question that it will be in the interest of economy and greatly 

to the interest of the Government to allow the Postmaster-General to 

49 76 50 70 5164 53 52 55 40 829( 84 51 8607 8920 9233 829( 84 51 8607 8920 9233 13271 135 21 137 72 142 72 ·147 73 14930 15211 1M 93 160M 166 20 165 89 169 02 17215 178 41 184 67 199 06 20'J 82 206 58 214 09 22160 

57 'ZT 59 1.5 95 46 98 59 

95 46 98 59 152 74 157 75 171 83 177 4.7 190 93 19719 

22911 236 62 

61 

101 

101 

162 7 6 

0 

45 

( 

1831! 

203 

2441 

extend the terms of the lease. And therefore we have authorized him 

under the provisions of this bill to make contracts for leases extending 

to five years, believing he can thereby obtain better terms for the Gov· 

emment. 

Another feature of the bill to which I wish to call attention is in pur- suance of a recommendation of the Postmaster-General, and that is to 

increase the weight of letter mail to one ounce for 2 cents postage. U n- der the present law, as is well understood, the weight of a letter carried 

by a stamp of 2 ~ts is limited to one half-ounce. It is believed by 

those connected with the Post-Office Department who have studied the 

question that this will. probably not result in any material loss of reve- nue. On the contrary, they believe that circulars and other matter now carriedopen will be put undersea!, therebyswellingourreceipts. The 

change will undoubtedly result in great convenience to the people. 

Another new feature in this bill is a provision which reduces the cost 

of carrying newspapers in the mail. Under the pJ;eSent law it ict re- quired that newspapers sent from the offices of publication shall pay 2 

cents per pound. Several years ago I looked into this question, and came to the conclusion that as we had reduced the cost of letter and 

other postage, it would be just and right that we sho'uld make reduction of the postage on newspapers and periodicals sent from the offices 

of publication. In the last Congress I introduced a proposition which 

put them on the same basis with the newspapers circulated in the county 

where issued; in other words, it proposed to allow them to go free through 

the mails outside as well as inside the county where publ:iBhed. It 

struck me that if it was right under the law then in existence that a newspaper should circulate free in the county where published, it cer- tainly would not be unjust to allow it to circulate beyond the boundary 

line of the county. I further believed it was in the interest of public 

education and the dissemination of knowledge, and I ther~fore introduced a bill for the purpose of amending the law which confined the 

free circulation of newspapers to the county of publication. 

The Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads have taken up the 

subject, and at the _present session they reported a bill reducing the rate 

of postage on newspapers one-half the present rate, or to 1 cent a pound. 

The Committee on Appropriations have accepted their proposition and 

have ingrafted it upon this bill. This puts such newspapers upon the same basis with fourth-class matter or merchandise. It does seem to me that if playing-cards and dog-collars may be sent through the mails 

at that rate from New York to the mountaineers of Idaho, it is right 

to allow newspapers and periodicals to be transported at the same rate. 

I will say, before leaving that question, that I do not believe that any 

loss of revenue will result from the adoption of this provision, for the reason that now the great daily newspapers issued in the large cities are sent at short distances by express. If this provision shall become a law it ·will no doubt induce those establishments that send their 

papers by express to transmit them through the mails, so that the 

Government will gain largely by superseding the use of the express for 

the carriage of newspapers on short hauls. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, there is another important provision in this bill to 

which I invite attention, the provision in relation to compensation for the 

foreign mail service. During the last session of this Congress a bill was passed repealing the compulsory law which required American steamers 

before they were permitted to obtain clearance to carry the mails. The 

rate of compensation allowed for that purpose by the present law is the 

amount collected for what is known as the '' sea-going postage,'' 2 cents 

on each letter, &c. The compulsory law, passed in 1873, made it incumbent upon every American steamer before obtaining clearance to 

carry the mails fo.r the compensation mentioned. It is true that the 

Postmaster-General is permitted to exercise hiB discretion in allowing 

to American steamers the inland postage in addition to the sea-going 

postage, but in no instance, if I am Correctly informed, has that eve.r been allowed; so that, as a matter of fact, the compensation baa beeu 

confined to the sea-going postage. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1427 

Complaint has been made by the companies that that compensation 

is insufficient; and it is feared that those companies may after April 

next, when the compulsory.law expires, refuse to take the mails for 

such compensation. They insist that when the compulsory law was enacted in 1873 the rates of postage to the countries visited· by American lines of steamers were much higher than at present, ranging in some instances as high as 30 to 40 cents per letter. The companies say 

that they were satisfied at that time with the rates of compensation 

thus received, because the ocean postage was sufficient to pay them for 

the service; but they insist that when the international postal union 

in 1878 reduced the rate of postage at 5 cents throughout and between 

nearly all the countries of the civilized world their compelk"B.tion was greatly reduced, in some instances so much so as to make it a burden 

and Joss to them rather than a benefit to carry the mails. I have oc- cupied so much of my time on other features of this bill that I will be 

unable to enter into a full discussion of this question, but I see before 

me gentlemen who have studied it, who served upon the committee 

which prepared the bill of which this. provision is substantially a copy 

and who procured the passage of the compulsory law at the last session, 

and whodoubtlessdesire to be heard upon this question. I will leave 

this discussion to those more familiar with the subject than myself. The 

subcommittee which prepared this appropriation bill did not recom- mend this provision when they prepared it for the general committee; 

they concluded to leave this question for the determination of the House on the bill now on the Speaker's table, and known as the Hunt bill, of 

which this is a substantial copy, except that this biH reduces the limit of 

rate of compenSation one-bali: For that reason the subcommittee did 

not change the estimate of the Department for that service; but the 

general committe~ by amendment inserted this pmvision iu this bill 

and recommend its adoption. 

Iwillonlysayfurther on this subject inpassing-asihave no time for 

details-that it is absolutely necessary that something shall be done to 

insure the carriage of our mails to theSout~1ernandPacific countries. lf 

nothing is done in this respect beiore the adjournment of the present 

session a serious interruption of our commerce and communications 

with those countries may follow. The compulsory law which forced 

American steamers to carry the mails having been repealed, they could now refuse to take them, and as they furnish about the only st-eamers 

making.regulartrips totheportsofMexico, Central and South America, 

West Indies, and trans-Pacific and Australasian countries, itca.n be seen that the interruption of our mail communication with those countries 

would be very serious. I merely desire to call the attention of the 

committee to this feature of the bill, leaving the discussion of it for 

other gentlemen more familiar with the question than I am. 

Now as to another matter. A bill was introduced some time ago by 

the gentleman from New·York [Mr. SKINNER] for the purpose of providing an additional10-centpostage-..stampto be known as the "special 

mail-facility stamp. " ·The object was to provide a force of messengers 

who, immediately upon the arrival at the office of destination ofletters 

bearing such stamps, would deliver them to the parties to whom they 

should be addressed. In other words, the idea is, that at any time 

from 6 o'clock in the morning until12 o'clock at night {if I remember 

the hours correctly), as soon as a letter bearing a stamp of this kind is 

received at the office of destination a messenger shall be at once dispatched to deliver it at the residence of the party to whom it is addressed. The bill provides that the amount necessary to be paid for 

messenger service shall not exceed the amount collected by means of 

the 10-cent special-facility stamp-which is, of course, in addition to 

the ordinary pos~age-stamp, and that the pay of the messengers shall not 

exceed $30 per month. But as the gentleman [1\Ir. SKINNER 1 is here 

himself, and will doubtless be heard upon the proposition, I shall not. discuss it at this time, except to say that, having given it some examination, I can see no objection to it. I believe it will afford great con- venience to the public", and, as it will cost the Government nothing, I see no reason why it should not be enacted in this bill. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, as regards the amounts ·appropriated, I have 

said that it will be found that we have appropriated in this bill for 

each item estimated by the Department a sum large enough to promote 

the public convenience and toproperlyconduct this branchoftheGovernment service. Some of the estimates in the office of the Second Assistant Postmaster-General have been reduced. There is no reduction 

whatever made in the estimates of the office of the Third Assistant 

Postmastex-General, and I desire to say that in reducing the estimates 

in the office of the Second Assistant Postmaster-General the committee 

intend no reflection on the officer who· prepared those estimates, but 

there is simply a difference of opinion between that officer and the ma- jority of the members of the Committee on Appropriations as to bow 

much will be needed for that service. I believe the last retiring and 

the present Second Assistant Postmaster-General to be capable and upright officers, butidiffer with them as to the amount required for portions of this service. 

As I have said, in the office of the Third Assistant Postmaster-General we have made no r~uction at all, but have accepted his estimates as to every item relating to that office. In the investigation I hav~ 

made in regard to the estimates heretofore submitted by this officer I 

have found him exceedingly careful, very judicious, and economical in 

making his recommendations. Indeed, sir, since he has been in "Office 

the cost of the service under his charge has been greatly reduced; and as I wish to give credit where it is due, I will say I have no doubt this 

reduction has been largely due to the care and ability of this officer. 

I find here a statement showing that the articles furnished to the ne: 

partment in 1877 numbered 1,075,000,000 at a cost of $817,382; the 

articles furnished in 1884 were 2,205,000,000-more than double the 

number furnished in the former year; and the appropriation amounted 

to only $1,055,000. Thus it will be seen that the increase in the nnm· ber of articles furnished was 1, 130,000,000 and the increased cost $238, • 000, the increase in the number of articles furnished being more than 

105 per cent. and the increase of cost only 29 per cent. 

lifr. Chairman, I believe I am now through with the general discus~ 

sion of the bill. How much time have I remaining? 

The CHAIRMAN. Fifteen minutes. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I wish to reserve us much of that as possible. 

lilr. ANDERSON. I could not hear what the gentleman said as to 

legislation in the bill respecting the Pacific railroads. Do I understand 

that the bill makes a direct appropriation to those companies for carrying the mails? 

1\Ir. TOWNSHEND. On the contrary, we have refused to make a direct appropriation. I continue the present method of compensation. 

Mr. OATES. Will the gentleman explain why the provision author~ 

izing the Postmaster-General to pay rents of post-offices should not be 

applied to third-class offices as well as those of the first and seoond 

classes? 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. The committee did notconsiderthat question. 

AJJ.y change in that respect would involve a change in the existing 

law, and a very large increase of expenditure. The subject wa8 not 

brought before the committee, and therefore we did not take it into 

consideration, leaving the question to be considered by the House upon 

the bill reported by the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

Mr. OATES. I understood the gentleman to state that the amount 

allowed by the committee to railroads for transportation of maiJB was $40 a mile. I see the figures- in the bill are $35. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. That has been changed by the committee since 

the bill was printed. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, unless it is understood that the general debate 

shall be limited to five hours, I move that the committee rise for the 

purpose of limiting deb:tte; but I hope the committee will agree to the 

limit which has been named. · 

Mr. WILLIS. I object to five hours' debate. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move that the committee rise. 

The motion was agreed to. 

The committee accordingly rose; and :Ur. BLACKBURN having re- sumed the chair as Speaker pro tem,pore, Mr. SPRINGER reported that 

the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union had, ac- cording to order, had nnder consideration the bill (H. R. 8138) maldng 

appropriations for the service ofthe Post-Office Department for the fiscal 

year ending June 30, 1886, and for other purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. 

ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempo1'e. The Chair asks unanimous consent to 

submit at this time several executive communications. 

There was no objection. 

DETECTION OF REVENUE FRAUDS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore laid before the House a letter from the 

Secretary of the Treasury, transmitting a list of special customs agents 

employed to det~t frauds in the customs revenue, showing changes 

made and reasons therefor; also referring to the duties of such agents 

and the authority for their appointment; which was referred to the 

Committee on Appropriatio~, and ordered to be printed. 

EXPENSES OF UNITED STATES COURTS. 

The SPEAKER p1·o tempin·e also laid before the House a letter from 

the Att<>rney-General, submitting a statement of amounts now available 

for expenses of the United. States courts; which was referred to the Com· 

mittee on Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

PUBLIC BUILDINGS IN KANSAS AND ILLINOIS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid before the House a letter from 

the Secretary of the Treasury, inclosing a communication from the 

Supervising Architect, asking an extension of the limit of cost of public 

buildings at Leavenworth, Kans., Peoria, ill., and Quincy, lll.; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered to be 

printed. STA.TIDIENTS FROM BUREAU OF STATISTICS. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid before the House a letter from 

the Secretary of tbe Treasury, transmitting, with an inclosure, a com- munication from the Chief of the Bureau of Statistics relative to printing certain statements discontinued under provision of act of July 7, 

1884; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations, and 

ordered to be printed. 

BIDS FOR POSTAGE-STAMPS, ETC. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore also laid b~fore the House a letter from 
1428 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 

the Postmaster-General, trnnsmftting a communication from the Third 

Assistant Postmaster-General, with inclosures, recommending a provision in the Post-Office appropriation bill relative to the submitting of 

bids for stamps, stamped envelopes, and postal cards; which was re- ferred to the Committee on .Appropriations, and ordered to be printed. 

HUNTINGTON HARBOR, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK. 

The SPEAKER pro tentpore also laid before the Honse a letter from 

the Secretary of War, transmitting a report from the Chief of Engineers 

«>fa survey of Huntington Harbor, Long Island, New York; which was referred to the Committee on Rivers and Harbors, and ordered to be 

printed. . LOSSES OF PROPERTY BY ARMY OFFICERS, ETC. 

On motion of Mr. ROSECRANS, by unanimous oonsent the bill (H. 

R. 5713) to provide for the settlement of claims of officers and enlisted men of the .Army for loss of private property destroyed in the military 

mervice of the United States was taken from the Speaker's table, the 

amendment of the Senate non-concurred in, and a conference with the 

Senate requested. The SPEAKER pro tempore announced the appointment of Mr. RosECRANS, Mr. MUBRA Y, and .l\fr. CUTCHEON as conferees on the part of 

theHonse. · , Mr. TOWNSHEND. I yield to the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. 

FOLLETT.) 

APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. FOLLETT. I rise, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of asking by 

unanimous consent the bill (H. R. 8039) making ·appropriations to provide for the expenses of the government of the District of Columbia fQr 

the fiscal year ending June 30, 1886, and for other purposes, returned 

from the Senate with sundry amendments, be taken from the Speaker's 

table, and the bill and amendmenet ordered to be printed, and referred 

to the Committee on .Appropriations. 

There was no objection, and it was ordered accordingly. 

. PENSION ATTORNE~S' FEES. 

Mr. ROGERS, of Arkansas. I move by unanimous consent, Mr. 

Speaker, that the bill (S. 2511} relating to claim agents and attorneys 

in pension cases, returned from the Senate with amendments, be taken 

fron;t the Speaker's table and referred to the Committee on Payment of 

Pensions1 Bounty, and Back Pay, and ordered to be printed. · :Mr. RANDALL. I suggest to the gentleman from .Arkansas that he 

also include in his motion with leaTe to report it back at any time. 

It is a bill, I will· say to the Honse, that cuts off the fee business. 

Mr. ROGERS, of .Arkansas. I ask, ?rir. Speaker, that the committee 

shall have leave to report at any time. 

There was no· objection, and the motion as modified was agreed ~o. 

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. 

Mr. WELLER, by unanimous consent, wa.S granted leave of ab.Sence 

indefinitely, on account of the dangerous illness of his moth~r. • 

DRAWBACKS ON iMPORTED 1\IATEBIAL. 

Mr. GEORGE, by unanimous consent, had leave to print remarks jn 

the RECORD as part of the debates on the bill (H. R. 7651) to amend sec- tion 3019 of the Revised Statutes, relating to drawback on duties on imported material when manufactured and exported. 

ADIX ISRAEl, HEBREW CONGREGATION. 

Mr. COX, ofNewYork, byunanimous consent,introducedabill(H. 

R. 8181) for the relief of the.Adix Israel Hebrew congregation; which was read a first and second time, referred to the Committee on the District of Columbia, and ordered to be printed. 

/ LIMITATION OF DEBATE. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move, Mr. Speaker, when the House resumes consideration of the Post-Office appropriation bill general debate thereupon shall be limited to five hours, including the time already consumed 

in discussion; and on that motion I demand the previous question. 

Mr. WILLIS. I ask the gentleman to yield to me to let this House 

express its will on the amend!Dent to limit the debate to one hour and a half additional to what has already been given. 

Mr. RANDALL. The gentleman occupied a solid week on theriver 

and harbor appropriation bill, and here is a bill involving $52,000,000. 

Mr. WILLIS. It was not the will ofourcommitteethe Houseoccupied the time, as we asked to reduce the time for gene~ discussion. 

This committee asks to increase the time. We want to pass the river 

and harbor appropriation bill, .and they seem to want to delay their 

bill. - : . 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I object to this discussion, as I have demanded 

the previous question on the motion to close debate. 

Mr. WILLIS. Then I give notice if the demand for the previous 

question is voted down I will submit the amendment which I have indicated. 

The SPEAKER pro tetnp01·e. The Chair can only ·state the metions 

before the House. .! 

The question recurred on the demand for the previous question. 

The Honse divided; and there were-ayes 124, noes 41. : Mr. BLANCHARD demanded tellers. 

:Ur. WILLIS. The demand for tellers is withdrawn. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Then the previous question is ordered. 

1\Ir. ·TOWNSHEND moved to reconsider the vote by which the demand for the previous question was ordered; and also moved that the 

motion to reconsider be laid on the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND's motion was then agreed to for the limitation of 

the debate on the Post-Office appropriation bill in the Committee of the 

Whole House on the state of the Union to five hours, including the time 

already expended. 

POST-OFFICE APPROPRIATION BILL. 

1rlr. TOWNSHEND. I now move that the Honse resolve itselfinto 

Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union for the purpose of proceeding with the consideration of th~ Post-Office appropriation bill. 

The motion was agreed to; and theHouseaccordinglyresolved itself 

into Committee of the W.hole on the state of the Union, Mr. SPRINGER 

in the chair. · 

:Mr. TOWNSHEND. Haveinottwelve minutesofmytime remaining? 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman has still twelve minutes of his 

time left. · · 

. Mr. HORR. 1\Ir. Chairman, this bill appropriates about fifty-two 

anti a quarter million dollars on estimates made by the Department of 

$56,000,000 in round numbers. But in the $56,000,000 is included 

$1,100,000 of the Union Pacific and its branches, an item which is put 

in the estimates simply as a matter of book-keeping. So really the es-. timates of the Department are $55,000,000, and the bill attempts to 

meet the needs of that sen·ice with $52,250,000. 

.As the gentleman from illinois [Mr. ToWNSHEND] has stated, this 

bill has incorporated into it a large amount of new legislation, some of 

it very important and very wise and some of it import.arit and I think 

very unwise. · It attempts to change the present method of payment of the railroads 

of the United States for carrying the mails, and proposes to base their 

compensation upon a. new and untried plan, and in doing itthegentle- man from illinois states to the House that in his opinion it will save at 5 mills per linear foot about $GOO,OOO, and at the proposed ;rate, for 

he intends to amend the bill by fixing .it at 4 mills a linear foot instead 

of 5, it must save $1,500,000. ~ 

Ur. BLOUNT. Will the gentleman yield to me fo:t: a question? 

Mr. HORR. Certainly. . 1\Ir. BLOUNT~ I wish to know if the effect of this plan, if there is 

any saving, will ·not be by decreasing the compensation of the small 

roads of the country. 

Mr. HORR. I will come to that. 

Mr. BLOUNT. .And if it is not admitted that in the operations of 

the bill the great trunk lines will get increase of pay. 

Mr. HORR. I will come to that if the gentleman from Georgia will 

wait a moment. Let me say, however, that· I desire to have any one ask me any question as I proceed that may occur to him, because it is a mathematical problem that I am working at, and I hope to make it 

plain to this Honse, first, that this new plan instead of decreasing the 

compensation of the railroads will increase them on the 5-mi.l)B basis, 

and secondly that it is unjust in its distribution and in its application, and as the gentleman from Georgia just intimated by his question, it decreases the pay of the long poor roads and short poor roads that run only six trips per week and puts an excess of pay into the 

pockets of railroad companies which· now get large amounts. I think 

I can prove this to the satisfaction of every member of this House. 

If it does that, no one will claim that we shbuld change the plan. I ·wish to say frankly, however, that this bill came to the Committee on .Appropriations with the unanimous indorsement and recommendation · of the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads of this House. 

We ingrafted this provision into the bill with my assent also, because 

at that time I th6ught that it was going to be a great saving, taking as I did the estimates of men who had examined and prepared the bill. 

But, fearing that there might be some misbake about it, I tackled the 

plan as best I could, and now, after a large amount of careful study, I 

think I have been enabled to get at the bottom of this proposed change, 

and believe I am able to show to the House tha.t this is the last thing 

in the world that should be incorporated into the bill providing for this 

service. · 

The first question arose as to·how we can get at the factwhethe1' this 

bill is a saving or not. Ifyou will take the tables which the gentle- man from Illinois ha.s, and I do not know whether be intends to publish them or not--

JIIfr. TOWNSHEND. I do. 

Mr. HORR. If yon take those tables prepared by the parties who are in favor of this measure yon will find that upon the face of those. figures it looks as if there will be a. big sa.vingin the future. You will 

find mathematically it looks very much like a saving of money and a great improvement upon the present plan. But there are men here 

who remember-the gentleman from New York, Mr. Cox, will recollect-that they brought in here a new system from the Census Bu-
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1429 

reau for figuring out the apportionment in the last Congress which was perfect in its mathematical bearings, but when we came to examine 

it we found that the result· was that it gave more members to States 

that ought not to have had them and took them away from States that 

ought to have had them. So the result is what we want to get at in 

this matter before we change the law affecting an appropriation of about 

$15,000,000. The real question is, what will be the outcome of this 

change? How much do the roads get now and how much will they 

get then? 

So I directed my attention 1o this proposition: What effect will this 

bill have upon the different railroads of the country if adopted? And 

to do this I selected at random, I think, perhaps two hundred roads, 

and with the aid of my friend from illinois [Mr. RowELL] we worked 

out their present compensation and their compensation under this new plan. The result which we arrived at I desire now to give to the 

House to show what in our judgment will be the effect of this change. 

I do not propose to show the result in all the two hundred different 

cases, but in a few cases, selected I trust, so as to fairly illustrate th~ 

question here involved, and I hope to be able to show to the Honse 

where tho difficulty in this bill lies, for it is a mathematical question, 

and is capable of a mathematical solution. · Take the Lake Slioreroad from Buffalo to Elyria, through Cleveland. 

That route ruos from Buffalo to a town twenty-five miles west of Cleveland, called Elyria. 

It is two hundred and eight miles long. It carries a large mail89,031 pounds each day. Under the presentratetheroadfromBnffalo 

to Cleveland gets $1,398.75 per mile. That is the amount it receives 

per year for each mile of its road measured between the terminal points, 

Cleveland and Buffalo. • Let me state right here-for some members of the House may not have 

given it any attention-we pay the roads now by weight per mile of 

track $200 for the first 5,000 pounds, and then $1 more per mile for 

every eighty pounds over the 5, 000 pounds. Then, in addition to that, 

roads that furnish post-office cars get for a car forty feet long $25; .for 

a car forty-five feet long, $30; for a car fifty feet long, $40; and for a car My-five long, $50; and for a car sixty feet long they get $55, if my 

memory serves me aright. Understand me; they get those sums for 

these post-office cars in addition to the amounts paid for weight just 

named. 

Now, as I said, from Cleveland to Buffalo, one hundred and eightythree miles, they get$1,398.75 a mile; from Cleveland to Elyria, twenty-five miles, they get $1r434:37 a mile. That is, that route nowpa.ys 

that railroad company $279,063.65 for the whole year. Now let us see how much they will receive under the new plan, allowing them 5 

mills per linear foot for the car space now used. This bill, you will see, 

allows 5 mills per linear foot for each mile run, and all roads carrying 

less than 500 pounds of mail can not use more than thirteen ·linear feet 

in a car. It may carry that amount in a less space, in which case they 

would get less pay. But they can not go abo>e it. For a daily average of 500 pounds to 1,000 pounds they get not to exceed fifteen feet; 

from 1,000 pounds to 2,000 pounds, not to exceed twenty-fi,-e feet; 

from 2,000 pounds to 4,000 pounds, not to exceed torty feet; from 4,000 

pounds to 5, 000, not to exceed forty-:fi ve feet; for 6, 000 pounds, fifty feet; 

tor 8,000 pounds, sixty feet. · 

Right here let me make this statement in addition. The above rates are for a speed of twenty miles an hour. For every two miles of speed per 

hour in addition this bill gives them an increase of one-tenth of amUI per 

linear foot. For twenty-eight miles per hour five mills and four-tenths 

of a mill would be the rate per linear foot. After it gets above thirty 

miles then one-tenth of a mill for every single mile is added. But the 

subcommittee, the gentleman from illinois L Mr. TOWNSHEND] and the 

gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HoLMAN], propose to cut out the last 

increase, so that as they propose now to amend the b.ill it will only 

give one-tenth of a mill for every two miles from twenty up to forty 

miles an.hour. 

Now, then, let us get back to our illustration. Under this new plan, as the bill was reported by the committee and as it now stands, this Buffalo and Elyria·route would get $301,529.35 for the entire year. That 

is a gain of $2'2,465. 75 over the present pay. Under the new plan they 

will get $1,487.05 a mile from Buffalo to Cleveland and $1,683.11 -per 

mile from Cleveland to Elyria. At 4 mills per linear f~t, which is 

aecording to the proposed amendment, there will be a loss to this road 

of about $21,000 a year. 

Take the road from Charleston to Savannah. This road is one himdred and :fift,een miles long. It carries 7,194 pounds of mail per day. 

At present it gets $259.09 per mile. It gets a total during the year of 

$29,795.35. Under the new plan, at 5 mills, it would get a gain of 

$6,001.85. Under the rate of 4 mills instead of 5 per linear foot it 

would gain only $426; so that the 4-mill rate brings that road down to 

about the same that it is getting now. 

Take the road from Atlanta to Chattanooga, a distance of one hundred and thirty-eight miles. That road carries a daily average of mail 

of 8,067 pounds. It has a speed of twenty-four miles per hour. Their. 

present pay is $293.49 per mile. They get now a total of $30,549.56 

per year. Under the new plan, at five mills and two-tenths of a mill 

for twenty-four miles speed, they would get $37,194.26; a gain of 

$6,644.70. 

Ur. BLOUNT. I presume in thatcomparison theamount underthe 

present law is not only for the weight but for postal-car service too? 

Mr. HORR. It is the amount all together. 

Mr. BLOUNT. All included. 

Mr. HORR. It is the amount all t_ogether. Inall these cases I give 

the total amount each road gets for weight and postal cars. Ur. BLOUNT. I supposed you did. 

Mr. HORR. If you should reduce it to four mills and two-tenths, 

that road would get $2,430 less than it gets now. Again, take the road from :Milwaukee to La Crosse. They have a daily average of 35,167 pounds of mail, and run a distance of one hundred and ninety-eight miles, at a speecl of thirty-four miles per hour. 

Their present pay is $668.34 per mile. They get in a year $132,296.30. 

Under the new plan they would get $1'70, 480.70, or a gain of $38,184.40. 

At the 4-mill rate they would still make a gain of$4,50G.86. 

Take the :Michigan Central road from Detroit to Chicago. I give this 

large number of instances in order that you may see that the outcome 

is the same in substance, and so as to have cases enough to get at the 

principle. That road gets now $360.83 per mile for a distance of two 

hundred and eighty-five miles and runs thirty miles per hour. They 

get $102,836.55 a year. At 5.5 mills a linear foot they would get 

$120,013.50-a gain of$17,176.95 to that road. It would be a loss, if 

you reduce it to 4.5 mills, of $4,643.16. Understand me, this bill as now proposed by the committee would give this road that amount less 

than it receives under the present law. 

Take the route from Elkhart to Chicago. That road carries on an a.verage 63,780 pounds daily. The distance is one hundred and one miles; speed twenty-eight miles per hour. The pay now is $912.83 a 

mile. Under the new plan, at 5.4 mills, they would get $1,143.85 a mile, and the total would be $115,518.85 as against the present total of 

$92,185.83; a gain of $23,333.02 over the present plan. At 4.4 mills 

per foot this road would still gain $11,790.64. 

The route from Columbus to Cincinnati would gain by the new plan 

$9,986.40 at the 5-mill rate, an~ at the 4-mill rate would lose $530.40. 

Now take the road from New Orleans to Cairo; that is a long route--

fivehnndredand fifty miles. It carries a daily average of 4,317 pounds 

and runs twenty-four miles per hour. At present that road gets a low 

rate, only $185.74 per mile. At the new rate, 5.2 mills, they will get ju~t about what they get now; but if you reduce the rate to 4 mills 

instead of 5, then there will bE! a loss to that road of nearly $27,000 a year. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Have you the figures for the Pennsylvania Central? 

1\fr. HORR. Yes, sir. I have just received thein; but I have not 

had time to look them over. -Mr. ANDERSO~. Will the gentleman [Mr. HoRR] state whether 

he has got the figures for the Pacific railroads? 

Mr. HORR. I am now coming to them. Take the road from San 

Fmncisco to Ogden, which is one of the Union Pacific system. The 

length of line is 834 miles; speed, 20 D1iles per hour; average weight of 

mail per day, 20,046 pounds. It npwgets on 784 miles 381.74 a mile, 

and on 50 miles, a short route from San Francisco to some other city, it 

receives $406.74 a mile. The total amount is $319,621.16 per year. 

Now, mark; on this plan, at 5 mills, this road would get only 219 a mile on the 784 miles distance, and $438 per mile on the 50 miles. It 

would get only a total of $193.596 for the year as ~<YRinst $319,621.16 

under the present law. 

That is a total loss of $135,762.16. Then the bill come.'> in and undertakes, in spite of the charter of the Union Pacific Railroad Company, to 

cut that amount down, and say that it shall have only 80 per cent. of 

that sum, which will reduce the amount $38,719.more, making a total 

loss of $174,481.36, and if you should make'the reduction to 4 mills, 

as "is now proposed, then they would get only $123,901.44 where they now get $319,621.16, so that they would then get a large sum less than 

half the amount they get now. The route from Omaha to Ogden, a distance ofl,034miles, carrying 29,665pounds of mail daily, is in almost 

the same position. They get now for 374 miles $509.34 per mile, and 

for 660 miles $484.34 per mile; making, for the entire 1,034 miles, 

$477,091.56 per year. Under the new plan at 5 mills there would be a loss there of $53,638.54, and 20 per cent. more off would make the _loss 

$138,329. At 4 mills theywonldget only $340,423.82 as against $477,-

091.56, a loss of $136,667.74, to which add the 20 per cent. reduction 

made by this bill on account of its being a land-graot road, and the loss 

would be $204,751.90a year. 

1\Ir. MONEY. Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? 

Mr. HORR. Certainly. 

:M:r. MONEY. I have heard frequent mention in the gentleman's 

remarks of a reduction to 4 mills; is there any proposition ofthatsort 

here? 

1\Ir. HORR. Mr. ToWNSHEND gave notice that the committee had 

agreed to recommend a reduction from 5 to 4 mills. 

Mr. MONEY. It is not in the bill. 

Mr. HORR. It is not in the bill yet; but it will be when the committee comes to amend it; that he will offer as an amendment proposed 

by the committee. 
1430 CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

Mr. RYAN. What committee proposed that? 

:Mr. HORR. It was done by the subcommittee, but-with the au- thority of the full committee. The full committee authorized the subcommittee to amend the bill as to this new plan as we might consider 

best. 

Mr. RYAN. But there has been no ratification of that action? 

"M.r. HORR. No; there has been no ratification of it. My planthere is no secret about it-was to strike this new plan ·an out. The 

other members of the subcommittee undertook to evade the increase of 

pay, the irregularities and discrepancies of the bill, by putting in "4" 

mills instead of " 5," I suppose because they became convinced that 

the very roads which under the present plan get a good deal would get 

very much more under the new plan if the rate should reffill,in at 5 

mills. 

Now, 1\Ir. Chairman, I want to state this proposition, and I am sorry 

that the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. TOWNSHEND] is not now in his 

seat, but I observe that the gentleman from Inqiana [l\Ir. HOLltiAN] 

is. I affirm that under this new plan every road that runs only one trip a day, six or seven trips a week, no matter whether a long or a short route, I do not care where you find the road, nor what may be 

the amount of· mail that it carries, it will be cut down by this bill. 

Most of the roads which run only one trip a day carry but a few pounds 

of mail. On the other hand, wherever you :find a road that makes a large number of trips per week this bill increases its compensation, and 

gives every such road a good deal more than it gets now. If you will 

figure it out yon will find that the result is invariably the same. The 

lowest that any of the roads (with the except on, perhaps, of half a dozen one-Horse roads) get now is $42.75 per mile. The law gave at 

first 50 per mile to roads carrying from twenty-five to two hlmdred 

pounds per day. Afterward that was reduced 10 per cent. And then 

still later another reduction was made of 5 per cent. on what the railroads then received, which leaves a large number ofroutespayingonly 

$42.75 per mile per year. 

Some gentlemen arc asking me for theN ew York Central and Pennsylv:tnia Railroads. I am sorry I did not get these reporl<~ earlier, be- ca.use I do not know that I can master them here in the limited time 

I have at command, but I see at a glance enough to justifY me in makinrr this statement-the roads running from New York city to Philadelphia, and the road from New York city to Buffalo, the New York 

Central 

I find that the new plan largely increases the compensation that those 

roads now get; but I can not give exact figures without more time to 

examine them; but you will :find they are no exception to the rule 

laid down, and I will show you why in a moment-I will demonstrate 

that this plan increases the pay on account of the increased number of 

trips, while every rail.foad that only makes six or seven trips a week is 

slaughtered. Thusthebillstrikesablow at the Southern and Western 

roads, while it is a regular "bonanza" for the great Eastern lines. It 

is scriptural in the extreme, as it verifies the statement that ''to him 

that hath shall be given and M>m him that hath not shall be taken 

away even ·that which he liath." • · Mr-. TILLMAN. Will the gentleman be kind enough to state 

whether the Treasury of the United States, as well as the weak roads, 

will have to respond to make up the ''bonanza'' for these larger roads? 

Mr. HORR. In my judgment-! have to run counter to the experts 

who have figured on this matter, but I have made the be t estimate I 

can-I think that this rate of 5 mills, instead of saving a million of 

dollars to the United States Treasury, will make the cost of railroad mail 

transportation a million and a half dollars greater than i-t now is; and 

every dollar which the Government thus loses will go into the treasury 

of the roads, which now receive large sums for carrying the mails. 

Mr. TILLMAN. Besides robbing the poor roads. 

l\fr. HORR. Under this bill all the roads that now receive $60 per 

mile or less will be cut down to$35permile, or rather 40, as the other 

members of t he subcommittee now propose to make it. It looked so terrible, when they came to think it over, that they have decided to change 

their figures in the bill; instead of striking out the plan altogether they 

propose to strike out $35 and in.sert $40. But the result will be that 

every road in the United States now getting not more than $60 a mile 

will be cut down to $40, except the roads running two trips a day, 

making twelve to fourteen trips a week; and these will be held up just 

about where they are now . . Now, what is the trouble with this new plan mathematically, practically? It is not a very abstruse proposition. If I had a blackboard I 

could make the matter plain-in a few moments, but perhaps I can get 

along without that. This bill proposes to pay 5 mills, and when 

amended will pay 4 mills for every linear foot occupied in the car 

until you get up to the full cru:, and then the price is still the same, so 

much a linear foot for car run. This is the wording of the bill; it was 

intended to be the wording of the bill. Consequently the road gets 

this pay for every single mile run, and if it makes fourteen trips a week 

it gets twice as much pay as when it runs one trip a day, whereas 

under the present law the mail may go over the road twenty times in 

one day, and the company will not get anything extra, unless it carries more pounds of mail or takes more post-office cars, which are paid for 

at so much per year per·mile of track. 

Consequently, under this new plan all roads making a few trips will 

get small results, and a large number of trips give large results; and, 

therefore, roads that carry but little mail and go through sparsely 

populated portions of the country, where the passenger business does 

not warrnnt running more than a train a day or six trips a week, will 

be compelled to do the work for less than they do it now; and these 

very roads do it now, as I shall presently show, for a great deal less 

than it is worth. 

At the same time this plan gives increased compensation to the rich 

roads, whose treasuries are already filled by their large outside work 

and this Government pay besides. These roads which use from one hundred and fifty to three hundred linear feet of space get the srune 

price per foot as those using only twenty to thirty linear feet; in other 

words, it pays retail prices for wholesale work. 

I do not claim that these roads get any more than they earn. This 

bill seems to be in · th"e right direction. It takes into account space, 

weight, speed, and frequency, and these elements one would think 

ought to be taken into account; but the difficulty is that it overlooks 

this great fact-that where roads carry enormous quantities of mail 

and make an enormous number of trips, they can afford to receive less 

per linear foot per mile than roads that make but one trip each day and use but small space. Consequently this bill is in the interest of corporations that do not need help, while it sacrifices the poorer roads that can not afford to be cut down. · - 1\fr. WARNER, of Ohio. I suppose when the gentleman speaks of 

"roads that do not need. it," he means roads that can not afford to carry 

the mails at the compensation proposed. 

1tlr. HORR. Yes; roads which are now carrying the mails for less 

than the service is worth, but which are compelled to do the work be- cause it accommodates their customers all along the line. 

Ur. ANDERSON. I would like the gentleman to give his opinion 

about the aggregate under the 4-mill plan. He has said that the 5-

mill plan would cost a million and a half dollars more than the present 

cos1;. What would be the aggregate under the 4-mill plan? 

Mr. HORR. Uy impression is that the 4-mill plan would save the 

Government considerable money. 

Mr. ANDERSON. A million or two? 

Mr. HOOR. Perhaps a million or one and a half millions. It would 

leave the roads which get large pay now with little change; but it would 

take all this saving out of the roads that the 5-mill plan reduces; in 

short, it will compel the roads that get small pay now to take still less, 

and will leave the great New York, Pennsylvania, and Eastern roads 

generaJ.ly about where they now are. To be local in the statement, it 

will reduce the pay of the roads long and short in the sparsely populated. West and South, and will increase or not affect the pay of the 

thickly settled Eastern and Middle States. 

The question now arises as to whether this railroad service is too high. 

Are we paying an unreasonable amount for this work to-day? If we are, then it should be reduced; if we are not, then we should appropriate the necessary amount and stop there. I shall. now attempt to show 

that this railroad service is not at the present time getting any such 

compensation as we have been led to believe. I ask members to give me their close attention, because I would like to disabuse the minds of 

the men here who think these roads are getting enormous priCes for 

their work at this time. I have taken a good deal of trouble to ascer- tain and figure ontjustwhat several roads do get for carryingthemail as compared with their other work. 

The mails are carried on passenger trains; fast trains. This is as it 

should be. People can not get their mails too soon. Let us examine a few routes -and see what the compensation is. Take the route from 

Bowling Green, Ky., to Memphis, Tenn., two hundred and sixty-two 

miles; it carries 7,693 pounds of mail per day, receiving $199.22 per 

mile. This is the amount of pay the road would receive for carrying 

eleven passengers the same distance at 3 cents a mile. Understand me, 

eleven passengers running over that road the entire distance would pay 

just the same amountofmoneythatthi&road now gets for carrying the 

mail. Bnt they furnish space for the mail which would suffice for sixty 

passengers. They carry the weight of fifty-three passengers, and yet 

only get pay for eleven passengers. 

Take the road from Portland to Wallula, in Oregon; they carry 6,596 

pounds of mail. They get $187.25 per year per mile of track. That 

is, they get pay for carrying the mail, which is less than nine passengers would pay for the same dittance. Understand me, nine pa&engers riding where the mail p3ssenger now rides would bring more money 

than the railroad gets for carrying him all this 6,596 pounds of mail a mile. They furnish space for nineteen passengers. They can-y the 

weight of forty-five passengers, and only get the pay for about nine. 

Is that extravagant pay? 

Mr. WEAVER. How much would it be putting it on the basis of 

steers? · :lvlr. HORR. We could not do that; steers do not occupy the place 

of passengers-do not go thirty miles an hour. No man will claim that 

the mails should be carried at the rates paid for heavy freight on slow 

trains. Again, the road between Atlanta and Chattanooga gets $293.49 a mile. They get pay for less than fourteen passengers. That road 

furnishes space for the mail, which would carry one hundred and twenty 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL REOORD-HOUSE. 1431 

passengers, and carries the weight of sixty-one passengers, and only gets 

the pay for fourteen. The road from Springfield, Mo.; to Memphis, 

Tenn.-two hundred and eighty-six miles long-that road runs seven trips a week, and it gets now $72.86 a mile. When I say seven trips, I mean over the road and back seven times a week. Four passengers over that road would bring more money than they now get for carrying the 

entire mail. 

Mr. ROWELL. You mean four passengers per trip? 

Ur. HORR. Certainly. At 3 cents a mile. I take it for granted it 

would be 3 cenm a mile. There are no roads in the Southern States 

where they carry passengers for less than 3 cents a mile, are there? 

Ur. AIKEN.. None. 

l\!r. HORR. The roads do this mail work in the South for about the 

amount that would be paid for carrying three passengers, and they furnish 

the space for from ten to sixteen and carry the weight of from five to seven. Now take the large road from Buffalo to Cleveland. We will 

allow only 2 cents a mile there. Sixty-two passengers would pay for 

what they get for carrying the mails. They furnish a space that would 

accommodate over five hundred passengers, and they carry the weight 

of five hundred ·and thirty passengers and only get the pay for sixtytwo passengers. You see the large roads figure that way because they 

carry an enormous amount of weight, this road averaging daily over 89,000 pounds, which figures up faster for them than for the small roads. 

The road from Washington to Evansville carries only one hundred 

and twenty-six pounds of mail, for which it gets $42.75. 

I wish you would look to this carefully, because this applies to the 

small roads all over the country. They get the pay now for just two 

passengers, that is, on nearly half the railroad routes where the mails run two passengers would bring the ro~ds as much as they now get 

for carrying the mails. They carry a weight of from two to eight passengers over these small roads, and they furnish a space of from six to 

ten and sometimes as high as eighteen. But none of them get any more per mile than would be paid for carrying two passengers over the 

route. That is to say, these railroads furnish from six to thirteen linear 

feet of space; under this bill they can not go above thirteen. Some furnish as low as six. A linear foot is a space one foot long and the width 

of the car. These small roads furnish apartments of different dimensions. Six by twelve-is a common room, but! reduce them all to the 

equivalent of linear feet, which is one foot by eight and one-half feet, or eight and one-half square feet-but it amounts to that when figured. 

Now, the roads to-day which get $42.75 only get the pay for carrying 

two passengers, and they carry one, the post-office messenger. So they 

furnish-now mark you-they furnish this space, run the car, heat it, 

light it, deliver the mails to the post-offices on the route and bring it from 

the post-offices back to the cars unless it is over a quarter of a mile distance, and for that whole work they can only get what they would get 

for carrying one passenger. 

Mr. RYAN. Two passengers. 

Ur. HORR. No; they carry one man, the post-office messenger. 

They get what one passenger would come to, and this bill steps in and 

takes out of that class of roads a million of dollars. 

Mr. ANDERSON. Will the gentleman permit me to interrupt him? 

Mr. HORR. Certainly. 

Mr. •ANDERSON. Have you made any comparison between freight 

and passengers? 

Mr. HORR. I have not, nor would it be fair to do so. I have, 

however, compared, it with rates received by railroad companies from 

express companies, and it is less than one-half what the express com- panies pay the railroad companies. 

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, then, it ought to be divided by about four 

to get it down under the limits of grand larceny according to the rates 

in my part of the country. But the small roads get this rate for carrying this mail in the ba~a-age-car. 

l\1r. HORR. Yes; the mails are carried in the baggage-car on the 

routes which carry but little, but the car is run on the passenger train 

and run at the same speed as passengers. I do not care how you figure 

it, if you will be accurate you can not help seeing that the small roads are inadequately paid. 

1 Mr. BLOUNT. I would like to askthegentlemanaquestionin this 

connection. 

Mr. HORR. Certainly. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Is it not conceded that on the great trunk lines, 

the larger lines of road, there is an increase of pay by this provision? 

I Mr. HORR. Yes; it is so conceded by the commission who placed 

the rate at 5 mills per foot. • 1\fr. BLOUNT. Is there any dispute in the committee that on a few of the lines where the largest mail is carried there is a considerable increase? 

Mr. HORR. There is no doubt about it whatever under the 5-mill 

rate, and under the 4-mill it is about even; some of them would get 

considerably more and some get less than now. 

:Mr. BLOUNT. But on the largest is it not true that there is an increase even under the 4-mill rate? I understand my friend ro say 

that on the Pennsylvania Central, w:hich is one of the largest in the 

country, there is an increase? 

Mr. HORR. Yes, sir. And so there would be on the road from New 

York to Philadelphia, and also over the New York Central. 

l\!r. BLOUNT. Then if there is an increase on the larger lines there 

must be a decrease somewhere. · . Mr. HORR. Undoubtedly. Ihavetried tostatewithmathematical 

exactness that this fulls heavily on those roads that run but six or seven trips a week. 

Mr. BLOUNT. I am agreeing with the gentleman, for it seems to 

me the conclusion is inevitable. 

l\!r. HORR. There is no doubt about it in the world. That is just 

what I am trying to demonstrate here; there is no other conclusion that 

can be reached. . 1\Ir. TILLMAN. Will the gentleman yield to me for another question? 

Mr. HORR. Certainly. 

:Mr. TILL:UAN. At present the law provides for what is known as the fast-mail service of the East, West, and South. In our sparsely 

settled country in the South that fast mail saves at least one day in 

business. How will this bill affect that fast-mail service on our roads? 

Mr. HORR. As the bill came to us from the Committee on PostOffices and Post-Roads it provided for fast mails by permitting the Postmaster-General to add 50 per cent. to the regular rates for securing that 

service to which the gentleman alludes. That was a permission which 

could be extended over the entire UnitedStates in the discretion of the 

Department. 

I opposed that provision, because I thought the lati_tude was too great, 

and suggested to our subcommittee that it would be better to strike 

out that clause and leave in the $250,000 which we appro~riated for 

that purpose as being a much safer and more feasible plan. They 

agreed with me, and so we struck out the 50 per cent., but when we got to the $250,000 they struck that out also. [Laughter.] So that we have now nothing whatever in this bill for the fast-train service re. ferred to by the gentleman from South Carolina. 

:Ur. TOWNSHEND. Does the gentleman from Michigan say that 

there is nothing to give an inducement for the fast-mail service to-these 

railroads? 

Mr. HORR. Forwhatiscalled the daily fast-mail service, for which we gave $250,000 last year, there is not a shi.Uing of provision made in 

this bill. 

l\Ir. TOWNSHEND. But does not the gentleman admit that the 

provision which proposes an increase of one-tenth mill for each two 

miles additional speed over the ordinary rate of twenty miles per hour 

is an inducement to the roads to increase their speed? · Mr. HORR. The gentleman will bear me out in this, that that 

amounts to but a small part of what the roads get for carrying this 

fast mail. I will tell you what the exact amount is, and then I will 

show you why this bill does not cover this fast service which we were talking about at all. 

Under the present law the road from New York to New Ha.ven gets 

$17,647. 06; the New York Central and Hudson River road gets $25,000 

out of the 250,000. These are the only two roads in that section of 

the country that get anything. Then comes the Wilmington and Baltimore road, $20,000; Baltimore and Potomac road, $21,900; Quantico 

and Richmond, $17,419; Richmond to Pete113burg, 14,197.50; Petersburg to Weldon, $11,680; Weldon to Wilmington, $29,565; Wilmington to Florence, $20,075; Florence to Charleston .Junction, $17,337; 

Charleston .Junction to Savannah, $19,062; Savannah to .Jacksonville, 

Fla., $30,358; and the line put on last year from Baltimore to Hagerstown, $15,758. 

Now, I wish my friend from Illinois to give me his attention, because 

he undertakes to make us think that this bill provid~s for this same fast service. True, this bill allows one-tenth of a mill for every two 

miles of speed run over the ordinary rate of twenty miles per hour, so that if a road runs forty miles an hour it would get 1 mill extra; that 

is,. 5 mills instead of 4 per linear foot. 

l\!r. MONEY. Five mills for thirty miles, .is it not? 

Mr. HORR. No; it is five-tenths up to thirty, and 1 mill up to forty. 

Mr. l\IONEY. Yes; one-half a cent up to thirty. 

l\fr. HORR. No; one half a mill up t,o thirty. 

Now here is the difficulty: When you add that speed on these roads, 

all except these two Northern roads, and figure their pay, you will find 

at 4 mills they will still get less tha_n they are getting now for carrying 

the ordinary mails. You will cut them down to this point; and still 

the gentleman says we are providing for this fast mail when these roads 

will not get as much for carrying it at forty miles an hour as they now get for carrying it at the ordinary rate of speed. 

I hope the gentleman will explain then how this bill provides for 

special fast mails. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I neglected a moment ago to call the gentleman's attention to another additional element which ellables the roads 

under the new system to get larger compensation than under the old; 

and that is the element of frequency. The figures the gentleman from 

Michigan gave me the other day as ro the Charleston and Savannah road, 

which is one of the longest in the southern line of special mail-faeility 

roads, were that under the old law that road got $259.09 a mile, bui 
1432 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

under the new law they would get $321.20; a gain of$62, without one single dollar of appropriation for special mail facilities. ' 

l\Ir. HORR. Certainly; but you have cut that down one mill, and oo cut out the very money you are talking about. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I know that. But the additional appropriation is produced by two elements_:speed and frequency-and that road, 

according to the gentleman's figures, gets '62.11 more than under. the 

present law. 

Mr. TILLUAN. I ask the gentleman from Illinois [M:r. TOWNSHEND l is not that estimate based on the assumption that the road 

makes two round trips a da.y? 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. Yes, sir; that is what theydo maketmderthe 

present arrangement. 

:Mr. TILLMAN. That is in con equence of their being paid to run 

one fast mail train a day. If you stop what is known as the fast mail on the poor roads that do not make but seven round trips a week, I 

would like to know what inducement the railroad companies would 

have to make two trips. 

Mr. HORR. I hope the gentleman will hurry. 

lli. TOWNSHEND. I will answer the gentleman from South Carolina, if I am permitted to do so. I haye mentioned the inducement we give the roads-an additional COPlpensation for every two miles of speed 

above the ordinary ra,te of twenty miles an hour. And then there is 

the frequency of carrying the postal cars over the line, which, as the 

gentleman from Michigan [Mr. HORR] figured it out, on the basis of· 5 mills, will give the Charleston and Savannah road · 62.11 per mile 

per annum,pver and above the present CQmpeusation. 

Mr. HOR~. Now, ifthegeutleman fromlllinoiswillgivehis attention, I will show him :where he fails mathematica.Uy. This ·road now gets $259.09 a mile. If you figure on the basis of 5 mills, then it will · 

get $321.20. That is, they would ha.ve gained under that rule '6, 001.85. 

They now get $19,000 for fast-mail service. But you have cut down 

the rate per foQt to four mills and five-tenths of a mill for speed. So 

that at that mtc, adding the speed, they will get only 262.80 per mile. ·And if the bill passes they get just about the same as they are getting 

now, and have not a shilling to carry the mails with on the fast· trains, just as I stated in the start. It is a ma.tter of arithmetic, and the gentleman from illinois knows very well that when he struck out the 50 

per cent. discretionary power given the Postmaster-General in the bill 

proposed by the commission he purposely failed to provide for this special fast-mail service. · Mr. TOWNSHEND. I want to say to the gentleman from niiehigan 

his arithmetic is wroug. In the first place his figures are wrong. I 

made an investigation last night from the tables accompanying the re- port of the Superintendent of the rail way mail service. He has estimated the amount of the present compensation per mile for that road 

considernbly higher than what it is. The figures show it amounts to 

only $212.06 umler the present law. 

1\fr. HORR. The gentleman is mistaken. I took my weights carI'ied from the Postmaster-General's report, and my calculation i~ correct. 

1\Ir. TOWNSHEND. I took mine also from the Postmaster-General's 

report; but you l1ave made a mistake in your figures. 

1\Ir. HORR. The book is right here, and I can show the gentleman 

that my calculation is correct. . :Mr. TOWNSHEND. Allowing for po tal-car service and present 

weight, it. amounts to only $212.06. The gentleman from Michigan 

says on the basis of 5 mills a mile it amounts to $312.20 under the · 

l'lw; a difference of about $110 a mile. 

:Mr. HORR. Will not yom bill, when amended, cut down the rate? 

1\.Ir. TOWNSHEND. Our bill will cut it down one-fifth, and with 

that cutting down they still get $100 a mile more. Mr. HORR. I beg the gentleman's pardon. His results m:e not correct. I have been interrupted, Mr. Chairman, and I desired to be; but 

I trust the committee will allow me to complete my remarks. My time· 

must be nearly exhausted. 

My friend from Kansas [Mr. ANDER ON] seems very anxious to have me talk longer a~out the big roads which have frequent trips. By one of these rates they will gain a little. By the 5-mill plan they will gain a good deal. Of the Western roads through the gentleman's State, 

the Santa Fe road will lose largely by this bill. The Union Pacific 

lines will lose, as I have shown, several hundred thousand dollars if 

this bill becomes a law. It takes themoneyaway-a,nd that, I know, 

will please my friend from Kansas-from the Gould roads. But how 

would he like to have it put it into the pockets of the Vanderbilt 

system? 

1\fr. ANDERSON. I think the gentleman did not understand my 

question. He has given us some interesting statistics in regard to several roa48, and stated he would give us the statistics in Jegard to the 

effect of these several prop<?sitions upon the leading trunk lines. Now 

I am very anxious or at least desirous to hear those statistics showing 

what effect this will have on the Vanderbilt system, the Gould system, 

the Chicago road-all those big fellows. 

:Mr. HORR. I have shown the facts already. . Mr. ANDERSON. What· I want is the statistical statement as to 

those roads. 

!lr. HORR. I am compelled to say to my friend from Kansas that 

the report of the New York Central has just reached me, and it is not 

in such shape that I can state exactly the results. 

:Mr. ANDERSON. All right. 

Mr. ;II ORR. But I do know philosophically, mathematically, that it 

will increase the compensation of that road enormously at the 5-mill 

rate and considerably at the 4-mill rate. It must do so on account 

of the great number of trips made over that line. I know that wherever a road makes only one trip a day, six trips a week, this plan will 

be ruinous to it. 

1\Ir. ANDERSON. I want the figures. That is what I am after. 

Mr. HORR. I have gi "Ven enongh figures to establish the principle. 

But, Mr. Chairman, there are some other features in this bill upon which 

I desire to inake some comment. I am in favor of continuing the fastmail senice through that sparsely settled country in the South. :Mr. TILLMAN. If the gentleman will permit me a suggestion I 

will remind him that the poor roads through the sparsely settled portions of the country will be compelled to make two trips a. day if they are to carry a fast mail, because their local business compels them to 

stop at every depot. With the pay heretofore given for fast-mail seJ'vice they have been able to run a fast-mail train. 

1\Ir. HORR. Certainly. . I say that ll!lder thJs bill yon will get no fast mail in that part of the country, and moreover it was not the intention that you should. 

Mr. TILL1tfAN. That is my understanding of it. 

lllr. HOHR. There can not be any doubt about that. 

Now, 1\-Ir. Chairman, in order that gentlemen may understand n.nd 

appreciate the importance of this bill I wish to submit a few more fig- mes. The whole number of railroad mail-routes in the United States 

is 1,634. ThenUJ1;1ber of routes that receive lesS than $43, or $42.75, is 

605. The number that receive less than $51 is 16 . Therefore this bill 

reduces 773 routes down to $35 per mile, though the committee tell me that they are going to raise it to $40 per mile. Every road now receiving 

$80 per mile will get only $35 or $40 under this plan, except a few that 

make over seven trips a week. There are only 86l routes that get over $81. If this bill now stands llt 4 mills per foot one-half of those will get 

about what they are getting now. Those are the large routes, which are now getting pretty good pay. The smaller routes will be reduced. 

So that nearly every dollar saved by this bill will come out of the poor 

railroads that are now getting for carrying the mail no more than they 

get for Carrying one passenger, for they carry a railroad mail-clerk all 

the time anyway. 

Mr. TOWNSHEXD. Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? Ilow much less would the majority of the small roads get 

under this bill than nuder the present law? 

Mr. OORR. If you put in your amendment of 4 mills and of $40 

the small roads will get 2. 75 less. But there are over three hundred 

roads that get between that and $ 0, every one of which your bill will 

cut down to $40. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. But a majority of the roads get only $4~. 75. 

:Mr. HORR. Yes; a majority of the small roads get only $42.75. 

Ur. TOWNSHE:ND. And some of them do not get as much as $35 ~ 

under the present law. 

l\1r. HORR. Only a half-dozen orso, which does not amount to anything in the discussion of this bill. To the roads that now get $42.75 

this bill proposes to give 40; but there is a large number of roads that 

get from $50 to $ 0 which this would cut down to $40; also roads that 

car1y now four hundred, five hundred, six humlred, seven hundred, or eight hundred pounds of mail. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

1\Ir. RYAN. Mr. Chairman, if lean be recognized now !will yield a portion of my time to the gentleman from Michigan [1\Ir. HORR] to 

enable him to finish his speech. 

The CHAIRl\IAN. The gentleman from Kansas [Mr. RYAN] is rec- ognized. 

1\Ir. RY~N. I yield so much of my time to Mr. HoRR as l1e may 

need to :finish his 1·emarks. 

1\Ir. TOWNSHEND. 1\Ir. Chairman, if the gentleman will permit 

me, I will sa.y that the commission that was appointed by the PostOffice Department to prepare this bill made the minimum limit $3S. 

We have raised that minimum limit to $40 a mile. It is true that we have lowered the rate per mile from 5 to 4 mills, but that does not affect these roads. This $40-limit protects all those roads, and we h..we 

raised the limit from $35 to $40. I wished to make that statement in 

justice to the committee. · Mr. HORR. If $42.75 is such a meager amount, such a me1·e pittance, for the service now, why do you propose to cut it down at all? 

1\fr. TOWNSHEND. In reply to that, ·Mr. Chairman, I will say 

that I do not think that $42.75 is a very meager pittance for the amount 

and character of the service. Fmthermore, we leave open the opportunity for these small lines, as they grow and as the business of the country 

through which they pass grows, to get a higher compensation than $40 

per mile. 

Mr. HORR. Mr. Chairman, having, as I believe, shown clearly that 

the present plan.of compensating the railroads for their service bad better be adhered to, at any rate until we can devise a plan that will be 

better understood than this new plan seems to be, and having aJ..so 
1885. OONGRESSIONAL REC.ORD-HOUSE. 1433 

shown that the roads are now doing their work at a low price, I desire now to speak brie:fly:o~ some of the other provisions in~ bill. . In the fust place, the committee here cut down the estimate for the 

railway clerks. They have cut down that appropriation until it is 

wholly inadequate for the service during the next year. There are now 56 of those clerks who get $1,400 a year; there are 519 that get $1,300; · there are 518 that get$1,150; therearel,408 thatget$1,000; and there are 800 that get from $900 down to $810, and there are 740 that get 

from $800 down to $100, but 497 of those get $800 per year. Under 

the provision of the law the maximum salary of these clerks is fixed. 

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the worst thing that this country can do, 

<Jr rather the worst thing this House can do for the country, is to cut 

down the mail clerks and cut do-wn their salaries, because they are really the key to the whole railroad-mail system. 

I know that my friend from Indiana [lt.:h'. HOLMAN] differs with me as to the amount that these clerks should receiv&. I am frank to con- fess that I prepare a bill of this kind with different feelings, different 

emotions, from my friend from Indiana. We view this work fromdifferent-standpoints, we carry into it different habits of thought, different notionsofpublicdutyandpublic expediency. The question which 

always occurs to me when I am preparing the appropriation for so important a service as this is, first, what is the work that we cn.ll upon 

these men to do; second, what salary will procure for the Government 

the best and most perfect service? It is not only arduous work, it is 

dangerous work these railway clerks are asked to perform. If my mem- ory serves me right, seven of these railway postal clerks have been 

killed by accident within the last year; about fifty of them, perhaps, 

have met with injuries more or less seYere. Yet, when we come to 

form the appropriation bill for the payment of these clerks, ~y friend 

from Indiana insists that they get too much pay for their work, 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. Did I understand the gentleman to state that we had cut down the amount of appropriation for postal railway clerks? 

Mr. HORR. Yes; it is cut down below the estimate. ~ 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. •Not below the appropriation for the present 

year? 

Mr. HORR. Certainly not. 

])fr. TOWNSHEND. .We give an increase of nearly $200,000 upon 

the present year. 

Mr. HORR. But that increase is so small as absolutely to preventand the gentleman from Indiana intended to do it; he will not disavow 

it-to prevent these clerks from getting the amount of pay that the law 

allows them. But, as I was saying, while I always ask the question, 

"What is this service worth?" my friend from Indiana always seems to be asking "Is it not possible to get sqme fellow to do this job for a few cents less? Can we not cutoff 5 cents from each of these men and 

yet not touch the starvation point?" [Laughter.] · Now, the appropriation for railway clerks in this bill is so small that 

you can not pay the present service of the men now engaged at the 

salaries fixed by law. 

l\Ir. BROWN, of Pennsylvania. That is practical repudiation, is it ·not? · Mr. HORR. There have been built this year6,000milesofncw railroad upon which this service ought to go. 

No more faithful men live than these hard-worked railway clerks, 

and of all the men in the public service they are the last who should 

be reduced in this way. l\Ir. Chairman, the next reduction I will call the attention of the 

House to is the star-route service. In this item there is a reduction of-

$200,000, is it not [turning to Mr. TOWNSHEND)? 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. On the estimates; not on the appropriations of 

last year. 

Mr. HORR. I am talking about the estimates-the amount the men who have this work in charge say is needed to meet the proper 

demands of that branch of the postal system. 

Now, an increase of the railroad service does not, as a person might 

at first think, decrease the star-route service. It is assumed by some people that as we .increase service by rail the service by horses diminishes. But this assumption is not true; it overlooks the fact that when 

you run a railroad through a colmtry intersecting pos~routes come into 

existence by the dozen from little towns springing up all over that sec:. tion of the country. Thus the increase of the star service always keeps 

pace with the railroad service. A.nd this bill is so drawn as to prevent the natural increase of the star-route service in these sparsely populated 

places. The people living in these towns need their mail-their letters 

and their newspapers-just as much as those who live in the large cities. 

These horseba{!k mails should be provided for with the greatest care. They reach the pioneers of this country, the men who crowd our civilization out into the wilderness, perhaps only once a week, but that once a week is a good deal to those brave, hardy' people. I would provide 

amply for this service. This bill lacks $200,000 of doing that. 

Again, the Committee on Appropriations has cut down the estimate 

for carri~rs something more than $400,000. I did everything I could 

to prevent it. At the last session we had this same :fight in this House. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. The gentleman will allow me to correct him. 

We have cut down the estimate only $50,000, and we have given for 

letter-ca.rriers $50,000 increase on the appropriation oflast year. 

Mr. BINGHAM~. The estimate is four and a half million of dollars. 

Mr. HORR. The committee has cut down the estimates for the let- ter~carriers $435,000. Now, this work, as everybody understands, is 

done by men who labor as faithfully and work as hard as any men in 

the United St.11tes. The amount which the committoo propose to appropriate is more than $200,000 less than is needed to keep the service 

right where it. is to-day. 

l\Ir. TOWNSHEND. I know the gentleman does-not want to do injustice to his own committee, and I wish to show that he is mistaken. 

The amount asked for letter-carriers and free-delivery service was $4,100,000. We have given $4,050,00o-a reduction of only $50,000 

below the estimate of the Department. 

Mr. HORR. The gentleman is mistaken. I can not see how you can claim any such thing. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. In this connection I wish to state that the ex- penditure last ·year for this service was only $3,504,000. We increase 

the appropriation for the next year half a million dollars above the ex- penditure of last year. · Mr. BINGHAM. lf the gentleman from illinois [ltfr. TOWNSHEND] 

will read his own report he will see that the Department asks for 

$4,535,000 for the letter-carriers and e_xpenses of free-delivery system, 

while this bill recommends an appropriation of only $4,100,000. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I admit the gentleman's correction as to the 

estimate; but we give over $500,000 more than was expended 'during 

the year ending the 30th oflast June. I was mistaken about the ecr timates. 

Mr. HORR. I do not liketo takesomuchtime; but since the gentle- man has brought up this letter-carrier business, and seems so strenuous 

about it, let me give him some exact info~mation. There are now 2,236 

carriers, at $1,000 a year; 1,084, at $8;>0; 333, at $800; 684, at $600; 

making 4,337, who reeeivein the aggregate$3,834,200. Ofthe684 re- ceiviri.g $600 each now, 337, under the act passed a few years ago, will 

receive an increase up to $800 per year, which will take $75,400; and 

307 will be increased to $850 each, making $76,750. Three hundred 

and thirty-three go from $800 to $1,000 a year, which takes $66,600. 

Then add for increase in cost of service on account of vacations given 

them by law last year, and it takes $115,000 to provide for that. Then 

add for incidep.tals $130,000, and it takes to keep the force just as it now ·is $4,297,950; that is nearly$200,000 more than this bill carries, 

and less than is needed, if we do not put another c.:'Urier on or do any 

thing to increase this service. ·But, Mr. Chairman, New York city has already applied for increase 

of a large number of ca.rriers. Several hundred carriers scattered all over the country are actually needed in addition to those now em- ployed in order to bring the service up to where it will be good and 

efficient, and yet this committee undertake to run this important serv- ice with $200,000 next year less than it will take to make legal payments if ·we do not add another carrier to the force. 

Now, this bill has cut down the entire estimates 'over $3,000,000. 

If my friei1d from Illinois will look at it, he will see how absurd it is. 

This bill only appropriates about $700,000 in the entire bill more than 

it will take for the entire post-office service this current year. The pos~office service increases every year about 8 per cent.; that would 

call for some $<1, 000,000 of increase for this year over last year. It is 

idle for ~nybod.y to talk about doing this extra 8 per cent~ work for 

nothing. It must be paid for, Seven hundred thousand dollars can not supply an increase of $4,000,000. This country will rue the day 

when we get so we can make as small an appropriation for the postoffice service in one year as we did the year before, because that will 

be a sure indication that decay has set in, that progress has stopped, tha~ 

growth is at an end in this nation of ours. The appropriations for the postmasters are cut down here below the 

estimate some $700,000. The gentleman will r~mem.ber I labored hard 

to get this House to fix an amount for the postmasters and an amount 

for the railway service last year up to the estimates. You voted me down. The Senate put it in; we did not yiehl; they yielded. We 

struck it out, and the gentleman from illinois well knows the deficien.:. 

cies are already known for this year to be just about the amol,lllt cut 

out in that bill last year. 

I wish to say one additional word and then I will be done. In preparing this appropriation bill I have so{!ght only to give such amounts as will be needed for good service in this department of the Government.' 

We are not going on this side of the House to expend this money. You 

gentlemen are going to have the .control of it. If you think you can do 

this work for three or j.9nr million dollars less than the men who have· 

been managing th~ business for twenty-five years tell you it will take 

to run it try it on, but do not say I came in and undertook to give you 

inadequate means with which to perform this work. I desire the appropriations to meet the wants of the people. The people pay for this 

service. The estimate of the Department this year is that we shall raise 

$51,000,000 by postage alone. 

Yet on the eve of the change to lower postage they reduce the service 

to about $52,000,000. The gentJ.eman froJillllinOis [Mr. TOWNSHE~D] 

must know, and my friend from Indiana [Mr. HouuN] must .know~ 

that this bill simply means a deficiency of $2,500,000 next year. It means either that, or it means such a crippling of this servicer 33 the 
1434 OONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

people of this country do not wish, nor will they submit to it in any 

degree of quietness or good feeling. The people pay for this service 

directly. The men who use the mails pay for the work. 

Then, I say, give them such sums as will lllake it a perfect service. 

It bns come to be very common to criticise and ridicule any work done 

by the Government. People, and some members here, seem to take 

great pleasure in defaming any management of national affairs. Still, 

the postal service of the United States, in my judgment, is one of the 

best managed and most successful business instit'tltions known to the 

world. When you take into account its vast machinery, its immense 

number of operatives, the nooks and corners of the continent it must 

search out and serve, the innumerable number of' packages it must care for and send in the proper direction, the precision of its deliveries 

and the aecuracy of its every-day transactions become truly wonderful. 

I assert that private enterprise never excelled in perfect work at so low a price the labor that is being daily performed by our 80,000 post-office 

officials and employ~. 

No doubt that now and then there have been grave irregularities. 

Corrupt rings have probably been formed from time to time and frauds 

perpetrated. What vast work in this world bas ever yet been free from 

such inciqents? Such·crimes sbquld always be exposed and the perpetrators speedily punished. But these exceptions do not invalidate 

the statement that our postal service is one of the most perfect systems 

that human intellect can devise and human energy and integrity ex- ecute. Such perfection can not be reached in a day. It is, it neces- sarily must be, the outgrowth of years of intelligent management, of 

patient, severe l~Jjbor, and in all this complicated work the duties of the 

postal railway clerk are exceptional. Not every man can fill that position. Natural adaptability to the work, opportunity and experience 

alone can do this work well. Hence it is a class of work that should 

command good pay. 

Itmattersnot whether the employ~ of this Department be Democrats or Republicans, they shoul~ be compensat-ed for the work performed. 

You gentlemen are about to assume the responsibilities of this service. 

My hope is that yon will perform its duties well, for it is a service that 

aftects every family :fireside in the land. It is pre-eminently the serv- ice that touches all the people; and, for one, I am determined that the means shall be adequate for the work to be performed . Mr. Chairman, I have detained the House much longer than I intended. Permit me to thank the members for their kind attention, 

and, in conclusion, to express the hope that after this bill shall have re- ceived careful consideration by this Committee of the Whole it will be 

amended and p~ in such shape as will meet the demands of a great 

service, that now requires over $50,(100,000 to meet its honest necessities. 

Mr. RYAN. Mr. Chairman, bow much time have I remaining? 

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. WORTHINGTON in the chair). The gentle- man has forty minutes remaining. )~.RYAN. I reserve that time, and ~ermit the gentleman from Indiana to take the floor if be desires to be heard now. Mr. HOLMAN. I yield twenty minutes to the gentleman from 

South Carolina [Mr. AIKEN]. 1 :Mr. AIKEN. Mr. Chairman, familiar as I am with the working of 

the third-class post-offices of this country, and with the necessity they 

have for clerical hire, I bad determined after reading this bill to propose to the House to increase the amount allowed for clerical service 

in such offices. 

But, sir, having examined carefully the annual report of the PostOffice Department, I am clearly. of the conviction that if the present 

amount which is appropriated were more equitably distributed we would have more clerks in the third-class offices, and the postmasters 

themselves would not be required to take their own salaries to pay for 

clerical help. · I have looked, sir, somewhat critically over the Postmaster-General's report for 1884, which is the last public document we have from 

that Department, and I find that the money appropriated for clerkhire is distributed with a discretionary power that seems to me to have no rule or regulation connected with it. 

I should probably :first call the attention of the committee to the fact 

that tbesepost-officesthroughonttbe United States are classified. We 

have :first:class, second-class, third-class, and fourth-class offices. There 

is no statutory requirement that either one of these classes shall have so much or so little clerical help, or that any specific amount shall be 

allowed each for clerk-hire; but the law does require that the postmasters in these respective classes of offices sball:have a specified salary. 

In the third-class offices the salary must be one thousand dollars and 

less than two thousand; in the-second-class t!e salary must be two 

thousand and less than three thousand; and in the :first-class the salary 

must be three thousand and less than four thousand dollars, with one 

or two exceptions, which have been fixed by law. I learn from the 

Postmaster-General's report that this law has not been complied with. 

Finding this to be the case, I was induced to examine the disbursements of the appropriations for clerk-hire in these three classes known as the Presidential offices. Selecting some of 'the first-class offices, 

where the amount of mail matter. to be distributed. can not vary very ma- terially from different States as well as from the same State, and com- paring them, I find as follows: At Sacramento,· Cal., the clerk-hire 

amounts to 9,9-20, while at Bridgeport, Conn., the clerk-hire i'3 only 

$7,671, or $2,300 less; and yet when I look at the gro receipts I find 

that the receipts at Bridgeport are $8,000 more than at Sacramento, 

and that it pays into the Treasury $7,500 more of net revenue to the 

Government than Sacramento. 

I find that at Evansville, Ind., the amount paid for clerk-hire is 

$7,180, while at Peo:ria, ill., it is 6,440 only; and yet Peoria bas a gross income of $30,000 more than Evansville, and pays into the Treasury 

of the Government a net revenue of $27,000 more than Evansville. 

Mr. HORR. LetmeaskthegentlemanfromSouth Carolina whether 

be knows how these two points compare in the distribution of the mails? 

Mr. AIKEN. That is a point which I tried to examine, but could 

not arrive at any conclusion from the report. 

Mr. VALENTINE. Let me suggest to the gentleman from South 

Carolina that I do not think the receipts of the office are any test at all 

for the amount paid for clerk-hire. The only test, in fact, is as to the · amount required for the distribution of the mails. 

Mr. AIKEN. I understand that to be the case generally, but in these 

:first-class offices there must be additional clerical help, for the po tmaster of a :first-class office could not possibly handle the mail received 

at the office without assistance, and the gross receipts in a degree indicate the amount of mail matter handled in the office, even though it be no distributing office. But all these first-class offices are alike distributing offices. 

Mr. VALENTINE. I know that in some offices in my own State 

the postmasters have to pay for clerk-hire for distribution of the mails 

out of their own salaries. 

Mr. AIKEN. Why? 

Mr. VALENTINE. Because Congress does not furnish the money 

to pay it. 

Mr. AIKEN. If the gentleman will allow lne to state what I get 

from the annual report of the Post-Office Department, he will see there 

is some irregularity about it. There is some imposition upon the thirdclass postmasters and the third-class offices in my judgment. They do 

not get what is due them. 

Mr. VALENTINE. I believe that too. 

)fr. CANNON. As I understand it, none of the. third-class postoffices get clerk-hire. They can only get an allowance for separating 

the mails, and that is limited, wherens from $2,000 up they get clerkhire. 

Mr. AIKEN. · What, then, is meant by cle~k-hire? As set forth in 

this report there are 1,620 third-class offices that get clerk-hire. 

Mr. CANNON. That is for separating the mail. But they get nothing for clerk-hire proper. 

Mr. AIKE:IW. Why, sir, there are som~ of these third-class postoffices that get more for clerk-hire than they pay revenue to the Government. 

Mr. CANNON. For separating the mails; . Mr. AIKEN. I do not care what it is for. It is work under the 

Post-Office Department. But this report of the Postmaster-General 

calls it clerk-hire. 

Mr. CANNON. If the gentlei.Dan will allow me I will state this: 

Take two offices. One pays $1,900; the other $2,000. The $2,000 

office, suppose it takes one extra man, .gets an allowance for clerk-hire 

for that extra man. The $1,900 office does not get a cent of allowance 

and can not get under the law. That is all I say. 

Mr. AIKEN. You mean the office with $1,900 salary? 

Mr. CANNON. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AIKEN. Then no man that understands the English language can read that book and get an idea from it. But let me give this Hou e some further little statistical discrepancies on this point; and it will 

all tend to show this distribution of money .should not go in bulk. It 

should be divided among these various classes of offices. 

I take the post-office of Syracuse, N. Y., which! take it is a distributing office. Syracuse has $122,000 of gross receipts. Then I take 

Troy, N. Y., which has 92,000 of gross receipU:!, a difference in gross 

receipts of $30,000. And yet they have identically the same amount 

for clerk-hire, $3,000: And Syracuse pays $33,000 more of net income 

to the Government than Troy does. I put it to any man of common sense whether Syracuse has not more necessity for clerical help than 

Troy. Yet the same amount is paid for clerk-hire, while the one pays 

$33,000 more of net income to the Government tha~ the other. 

Now take Portland, Oreg., and Harrisburg, Pa. Portland, Oreg., 

bas. $75,000 of gross receipts; Harrisburg, Pa., only 45,000. Yet at 

Harrisburg $600 more is paid for clerical help than at Portland, Oreg. 

:Mr. HORR. There are a great many roads which meet at Harrisburg, and it supplies a thickly settled country. 

Mr. AIKEN. I know that a thickly settled country is supplied 

there. But' go farther South to a sparsely settled country. If it i a 

thickly settled country in the vicinity of Harrisburg, and more is re· qnired there for clerical help, we will go to the State of Texas. At 

Austin, Tex., there are $38,000 of gross receipts; at Dalla , $44,000. 

Both are central points where railroads meet; and yet Austin, with 

$6,000 less of gross receipts and $4,000 less of net receipts, get. $800 · mGre for clerical help. 

Mr. VALENTINE. That is easily explained. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1435 

Mr. AIKEN. I have not time to yield to the gentleman. · It is not 

explained in this book. I understand what a distributing office is. I 

have been in them and know all about them. 

Take Norfolk, Va., and Wheeling, W.Va. Norfolk, Va., ought in 

my judgment to be considered more of a distributing office than Wheeling. Wheeling is on a line of railroad going north and south and east 

and west. We have similar roads centering at Norfolk. It supplies a large section of country. Norfolk has $28,000 of net revenue. Wheeling has $20,000; but Wheeling gets $10,000 for clerical help and Norfolk gets $7,000-adifference of $3,000. 

These are all :first-class post-offices. I will only instance one from 

the second-class. I will take Waverly, N. Y. Is it a distributing 

office? The gross reeeipts are only $7,338. It gets but 370 for clerkhire. I suppose that is for a man to assist in distributing. Penn Yan 

hns $7,351 of gross receipts; only a few dollars more than Waverly. It 

gets $1,216 for clerk-hire, nearly S1,000more. 

:M:r. SKINNER, of New York. TJ:tey have more to do there. That 

is right. 

Mr. AIKEN: Now, I will say one thing further. In examining 

this report I was bnffied when I attempted anything like a mathematical calculation. The Postmaster-General says that on the 30th day of 

June, 1884, there were eighty-four first-class post-offices in the United 

States. In another part of his report he enumerates them, and there are but seventy-eight, making a difference of six. He says there are four 

hundred and four second-class post-offices. I ran over the list, counted 

them, and there are but four hundred and one. He says there are 2,323 third-class offices, and he refers you to the list. I went over the 

list and found the number 2, 1G1, being one hundred and sixty-two less 

than the number stated. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, that led me to another idea. 

A M:EXBER. May there not have been changes since those :figures were given? ~Ir. AIKEN. No, sir; there can not have been any changes. Thee 

:figure are all of the same date, and the Postmaster-General refeTs you 

to the section of his report where you will find these :figures. He 

states that the gross receipts from these (as he says 2,323, but as I say 

2,161) post-offieesare over 33,000,000. I have added them up, aggregated them by States and individual offices and I find that they do not 

aggregate $32,000,000. 

Now I come to a point which I wish to impress upon the House, 

and it is the point which suggested these remarks. The clerical help 

in the :first-c'liss offices amounts to $3,465, 59, which is 18 per cent. of 

the gross receipts of those offices and 26 per cent. of their net receipts. 

The clerical help of the second-class post-offices amounts to 20,592, 

which is only14 per cent. of their gross revenue and 24 per cent. of the 

net revenue. But when we examine the third-class post-offices we find 

that their gross receipts are more than $500,000 in excess of the gross 

receipts of the second-class offices, and theypay$2,690,897 net revenue to the Government; yet their clerical help amounts to only 7 per cent. 

of their gross receipts, and less than 17 per cent. of their net receipts. 

Now I think I am warranted in saying that that is not an equitable 

distribution of this money which is given to the Postmaster-General for 

his discretionary disbursement. 

I notice another fact, sir; that the clerk-hire recorded in this report 

averages $575 to each office, taking the entire list; but of thatt.otal num- ber there are one hundred and seventy-three third-class J)Ost-offices 

that receive for clerical hire $100 or less than $100, while five hundred 

and eighty receive nothing at all; and I know of my own knowledge 

of more than half a dozen offices that are distributing offices where the 

postmaster has to work both day and night; and I know of one or two 

instances where money is paid directly from the salary of a third -class 

postmaster for help, because he finds it impossible otherwise to perform 

the duties required of him. 

Mr. VALENTINE. That is the case all over the country. 

:Mr. AIKEN. Why should it be so? It is wrong. There ought to 

be a, sufficient appropriation made to putanend tothatstateofthings. 

Mr. VALENTINE. That is what I propose to help you to do. 

Mr. AIKEN. Now a few words about salaries, and then I shall submit the amendment which I propose to offer at the proper time to this 

})ill. I begin with the Sacramento office, California.. The net receipts 

of that office were $22,342, and the salary of the}>ostmaster is $3,075; 

while Oakland, CaL, which gives a net return of $12,000 more, is only a second-class office and the salary of the postmaster is $2,925. There 

;is no distribution in that case. That is regulated by law. The law 

provides that every post-office shall have a certain standing in its 

. ~lass, and that according to its ·standing in the class the postmaster 

shall receive a salary of $1,000 or over, $2,000 or over, or $3,000 or over. Here, then, is the case of an office where the postmaster gets a salary 

of over 3,000, yet which does not do much more than half as much 

business as is done by another which is put in the second cl~. 

Again, take Quincy, Ill. The net revenue of that office is only$20,000, 

while Rockford, ill., yields 29,000; yet Quincy is ranke~ as a :firstclass office, while Rockford is only a second-class office. Again, EVansville, Ind., yields a revenue of $19,000 a year and ranks as a first~ 

class office with a salary of $3,000; Lincoln, Nebr., yields a revenue of ~,500 more, but it is only a second-class office. Still, strange to say, 

that second-class postmaster gets a salary of $3,000. How is that? 

The law provides that the. salary of the postmaster a~ a second-class 

office shall be $2,000 and over, yet here is a postmaster in an office of 

the second-class who gets -a salary of$3,000. Little Rock, Ark.,'pays 

a net revenue of only $16,684, but it is a first-class office, and the postmaster gets a salary of $tl, 000; Los Angeles, Cal., pays almost twice as much revenue to the Government, yet it is put down as a second-class 

office, and the salary of the postmaster is only $2,800. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. AIKEN. I ask the committee, as they have indulged the gentleman from Michigan [Mr. HoRR], to give me ten or twelve minutes 

more. l'l1r. HOLUAN. I will yield five minutes to the gentleman. 

Mr. AIKEN. To continue the comparison of these offices, Harrisburg, Pa., is put down as a first-class office, with a salary of $3,150. It 

pays only $24,000 net revenue, while Wilmington, Del., pays $1,000 more net revenue, yet the salary of the postmaster at Wilmington is 

$150 less than that of the Harrisburg postmaster. But still the postmaster at Wilmington gets a salary of $3,000, although the office is re- corded as belonging to the second-class. What tight has that postmaster 

to draw a salary of $3,000 when the law provides expressly that no postmaster shall draw that salary unless his is a first-class office? Again, 

take the office of Kankakee, Ill.; it is put down as a second-class office1 

with a salary of $2,250, while Jollet, another little town in that State, 

is put down as a third-class office, with a salary of $1,800; but Joliet 

yields $1,500 more revenue to the Government than Kankakee. Again, 

take Natick and Amesbury, in Massachusetts. One is set down as a 

second-class otfice and the other as a third-class office, but both postmasters get the same salary, $2,000. 

Mr. VALENTINE. May not those apparent discrepancies be explained by the returns of gross revenue? 

l'llr. AIKEN. No, sir. The gross revenues are invariably less where 

I ha-ve ~tated the net revenues as less, but the salary is sometimes 

greater. Geneva and Glens Falls, N. Y., are both recorded .as thirdclass offices, yet the salary of the postmaster in each is considerably over $2,000. What right has the Postmaster-General or anybody else 

to appropriate a salary of $2,000 to a postmaster of the third class in 

violation of the law? .Again, GloversvWe, N.Y., with net and gross revenues less tbau.either Geneva or Glens Falls, is registered as a second-class ppst-office. . . '!'here are three second-class offices in Colorado whose gross receipts 

do not reach $6,000 each, and whose net revenue to the Government is 

each less than the salary paid the postmaster. The clerk-hire in one of 

these is more than its net revenue. In Nevada there are two second -class offices, in each of which the sum of the salary of the postmaster and the clerk-hire exceeds the net income to the Government, and a third office of the second-class where 

the salary of the postmaster and the clerk-hire are eaeh more than the 

net revenue to the Government. 

Carthage, N. Y., with a gross income of only $3,535.69 and a net revenue to the Government 1~ than the salary of the postmaster, is a 

second-class post-office, while Geneva, N. Y., with a gross income of 

$16,901.84 and a net revenue of $12,325.84, is a third-class post-office, 

though the postmaster has a salary of $2,575. 

Meadville, Pa., with a gross income of $16,487.30, is a third-class 

post-office, though the salary of -the postmaster is $2,500; and Sharon, 

Pa., with a gross income of only $7,809.9Z, is a second-class post-office, 

and the salary of the postmaster over $2,000. 

Mr. Chairman, after considering all these irreconcilable inaccuracies 

it does seem to me we ought not to allow the sum ,of $5,100,000 to be 

appropriated in bulk to be distributed for clerical hire. Therefure, at 

the proper time, I propose to submit an amendment to add to the clause 

of the bill which I have been discussing the following: · 

Three million five hundred thousand dollars of which shall be paid to clerks 

in first-class offices, $900,000 to clerks in second-class offices, ·and $700,000 to clerk8 

in third-class post-offices. · 

I return the floor to the gentleman from Indiana [M:r. HOLMAN], to 

whom I am much obliged tor his kindness. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I reserve the residue of my time. 

Mr. RYAN. Mr. Chairman, I take the floor not so much for the 

purpose of discussing the provisions of this bill as to call the attention 

of the House to the exact status of that business which this House must 

transad, if it would avoid an extra session of the Forty-ninth Congress. 

I have reference to the appropriation bills; and if I can have the attention of members and can make them thoroughly understand the status 

of their business, I believe we shall be in a better frame of mind to facilitate ~he passage of the appropriation bills remaining unacted upon; 

and if I should accomplish this rooult, I shall not have occupied the 

time in vain. 

I doubt whether within the experience of the oldest member of the 

House the appropriation bills at a corresponding stage of .any session 

of Congress have been in ·such a state of immaturity. Only one of 

the thirteen general appropriation bills has gone to the President. We 

have remaining but nineteen legislative daysofthis session, including 

the last day; the 4th of :March. The fortification appropriation bill, . the estimates for which are over $7,000,000, is still in the hands of a 
1436 CONGR"ESSIONAL' RECORD~HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations of this House, so 

that in fact the eommittee on Appropriations has not considered it at 

alL The naval appropriation bill, the estimates for which are over $30,000,000, is still in the hands of a subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations oft~ House,-not havingbeenactedon atall bythe 

committee itself. 

The sundry civil bill, the estimates for which are over $32,000,000, 

remains still in the hands of a subcommittee of the Committee on .Appropriations of this House, the committee itself not having considered 

it at all. The deficiency bill, the estimates for which are over $8,000,000, 

remains still in the hands of a subcommittee of' the Committee on Appropriations of the _House, not having been acted on at all by the com- mittee. 

So that here are four of the most important of the general appropriation 

bills which have not yet been considered by the Committee on Appropriations. The Post-Office bill. now under consideration must, as every 

member can foresee, occupy considerable time if it is to be fairly con- sidered. The legislative bill, already reported, is next to be considered 

by the House. 

Now a word as to the condition of the other appropriation bills. The 

pension bill bas passed both Houses, and is now on the Speaker's table, 

the Senate amendments having yet to be considered. . The Military Academy bill is the only one, a little bill of $310,000, 

that has gone to the President. The consuJar and diplomatic appropriation bill, I believe, is ready for conference. The Indian appropriation bill is still in the hands of the Senate committee, not having been 

reported to the Senate at all. The Army appropriation bill is in the same condition. I ought to say, in passing, the pension bill to-day is 

under consideration in the Senate; but the Army appropriation bill is 

still in the Senate committee. The District of Columbia bill was re- ported back here to-day, and has been referred to the Committee on Appropriations of the House, that· the Senate amendments may receive 

consideration. The agricultural appropriation bill is still in the Senate 

committee. 

This, Mr. Chairman, is the condition of the appropriation bills today, and it would seem that the peril of an extra session is imminent, 

and this House, in order to avoid that and all its ·disastrous consequences to the business of the country, will be compelled to press on so rapidly that it can not give that considem,tion to these bills carrying over $200,000,000 they ought to r~ceive at. the hands o.( the representatives of the people. At the last session of Congress we were obliged to pass one of the most important of the appropriation bills, the sun- dry civil, under a suspension of the rules-a most reprehensible practice. 

Now I want to call the attention of the House to the time we occupied at the last session of Congress in considering the bills which we are yet to consider in this House. 

Mr. BLOUNT rose. Mr. RYAN. Letmeconcludetbis, and-then Iwillauswerquestions. 

We occupied two days in the consideration of the deficiency bill. I 

have explained the status of that bill. It has not yet been acted on by 

the Committee on Appropriations. We occupied with the fortifications 

bill three days. We occupied three days in the consideration of the 

legislative, executive, and judicial bill. We occupied :five days in con- sidering the naval bill. We occupied :five days in considering the PostOffice bill. We occupied, of course, but one day in considering the 

sundry civil bill, which in fact, wedidnotconsideratall, having passed 

it under a suspensionofthe rules. Thus we occupiednineteen days at 

the last session of Congress in considering those bills which we have not 

considered at all at this session, and we have but twenty days remaining of the session. 

Mr. VALENTINE. Not working days. . ~Ir. RYAN. Twenty legislative days is all we have remaining of 

the session, including the 4th of March. 

1\Ir. VALENTINE. But you have to take out the day for the electoral count and the 22d of February. 

1\Ir. BROWN, of Pennsylvania. Really only eighteen days left. 

Mr. RYAN. . Now the Senate requires as much time in considering 

these bills as the House. In justice to themselves and to the country 

they must consider every item of these appropriation bills-consider 

them in the committee, consider them in the Senate-and after. that 

has been done they come back again to the House to receive consideration at least on the amendments which are made to them. . . 

l\Iuch new legislation is upon many of these bills, and agreements are likely to take a considerable fup.e. 

I have thought it my duty, Mr. Chairman, to call the attention of 

the House to these important facts, that we may no longer than is neces- £nry delay action on those bills which we must pass if we would avoid an extra session of Congress, and which I believe every man on this floor 

desires to avoid. · 

Mr. Chairman, bow much time have I left? 

The CHAIRUAN. Thirty minutes. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Will t:he gentleman allow me to ask him a ques- tion? 

Mr. RYAN. With pleasure. 

Mr. HAMMOND. Is it because the necessity was so great that 'We 

limited general debate on this bill to :five hours? 

1\Ir. RYAN. I wish to say to the gentleman from Georgia that the 

policy·of pushing a bill through the House carrying $52,000,000without debate is reprehensible in the highest degree, and any policy that 

compels the necessity of such a course on the part of the House is 

equally reprehensible. 

I will reserve the balance of my time for the purpose of yielding it 

to the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. BINGHAM] when he desires 

to take it. 

Mr. DUNHAl\1. Let the gentleman state to the House the facts about 

the delay'of these appropriation bills-state to the House where the 

trouble is-who is to blame. 

::M:r. RYAN. The House is as competent to judge of that as I am. Mr. MONEY. l!Ir. Chairman, as a great deal of the new legislation 

in this bill has been prepared by the Committee on the Post-Office and 

Post-Roads, I desire the attention of the House for a few minutes until 

I can put forth, in as clear a manner and as briefly as I may be able, 

the reasons-which actuated that committee in their report. It is impossible in the time allowed by my friend from Louisian..<t [A-Ir. ELLIS] 

to do more than touch upon the salient points of this bill.- It will be 

impossible for me to go further than that provision in reference to the 

compensation of railroads for carrying the mails. 

In the :first place, it seems to me, from the speeches that I have listened to here to-day and heretofore on this floor, that the whole purpose of the great postal service of this country is entirely misunderstood. 

We have been told heretofore that the Post-Office Department of this . country, by gentlemen who have debated the question, is conducted as a bUsiness. · 

We have been told that in some sections of the country this business was a great charge upon the people, because of the fact that the particular section of country in question did not pay in postage the expense 

of handling and transporting the mails. 

We have been told that in other sections it was a. lucrative business 

productive of revenue, and that it was a profita,ble business because 

that particular section paid more to the revenues of the country in the 

shape of postage than was expended for conducting the service. 

In my view, sir, the Post-Office Department or the postal service of 

this country is one of the functions of this Government, and is not con- ducted as a business or a charity. In my judgment there should be no arrest of the development of the service because of the insufficiency of 

the revenue derived from postage. There 'is no country on the face of 

the earth that has a postal service at all that does not conduct it as a 

function of the government; and there is just as much rignt to assume that the other great functions of this Government are run as business 

enterprises, and that they should pay their expenses, as that the postal 

service should be required or expected to do so. For instance, it wouJq 

be just as proper to say that Congress shouJd pay all ofits own expenses, 

that the judiciary should pay the expense connected therewith, and 

that the Army and Navy or any other branch of the Government should 

be required to pay its own expenses, as that the postal service should. 

The only excuse for fixing :postage at all is that it is a tax levied upon 

those who use the mails for the general purposes of Government, aud 

not to conduct the Post-Office; that it is a tax of universal application 

aQd distribution, and that it is a tax of which no complaint bas ever yet been made as to its levying. It is a tax levied for the general purposes of Government just as excise taxes and imposts are levied for the 

general purposes of Government, and the Post-Office Department is a. function of the Government administered for the good of the whole 

people of this country, because it has been found necessary that the 

communication that built up the social and commercial relation& of 

the several sections ·should be developed to the highest possible degree. And T -say that there should be no limit to the revenues derived 

from this service. I meaQ that every single dollar expendetl in the 

service should be made to procure just as much as possible of the serv- ice demanded by it. . · Now, in that view I undertake to address myself to this particular 

provision-the compensation allowed to railroads for mail transportation. The bill just .submitted differs in-some material respects from 

the law as it stands; and it is not a question, as stated by the gentle- man from Michigan [Mr. HORR], of robbing the little roads orincreasing in an inordinate degree the earnings of the larger roads, but it is 

simply a question of paying for the service which the Government gets. 

If the small railroad does not carry a large mail they should not get 

the pay for can"ying a large mail. 

1\Ir. HORR. It does not now. l!Ir. MONEY. It does not now, because it does not carry the large 

mail, and therefore it should not get pay for that which it does not do. 

The railroads are not to be treated as objects depending upon the subsidy of the Government; and the Government should not be taxed to 

support a small road, nor should it withhold from the large roads that 

wh,ich they actually earn. . Now, the basis of pay, as formerly and now determined, is :fixed by 

weight supplemented by spa.ce. It is complained of this bill or this 

amendment of the old law that frequency and speed are also items that 

enter into the calculation. That is exactly as it ought to be. If you 

have a star-route mail service running three times a week and you in- crease it to six times a week, it is a law that double compensation shall 
1885. ' CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1437 

be :paid for the increase; and is there any reason, if speed is valuable in a single instance on a star route for the transportation of a small portion of the mails of the United States, that the same reason should not 

be applied to railroads which convey 90 per cent. of the entire mails of 

the Union? In other words, is there any reason why the railroads 

transportillg 10,000 pounds of mail per day should have as much pay as 

the road transporting 10,000 pounds twice a day? Not only that, sir, 

but in expediting the schedule, which has been the subject of investigation and also the cause of corruption in the administration Qf the contract office, there is the same element to be considered. 

Mr. Chairman, this bill is the result of an inveStigation into the 

whole railway system of the United States by a commission of competent experts appointed by the Postmaster-General. In their investigation they took the average earnings of the railroads of -the United 

t3tates. Then they took th~average earnings of the ·six great railway 

States of the United States, and they had correspondence which they 

had invited. from almost all the great lines of the country. 

It was ascertained that about 26~ cents per mile per car run was the 

cost of the passenger trains of the United States. That was the average. In the great State of Ohio, according to a late report by her com- missioner of 1·ailroads, the earnings were 29.4 cents per mile; which is 

perhaps a fair sample of the business of the United States. 

It was d~able that a just and reasonable compensation should be 

paid to the railroads for their services. This was particularly incumbent upon the Government, because it'had not permitted a bidding by 

these roads; but byforceofpublicopinionitexerci..o;esacompulsion upon 

them, and theyare compelled to carry atwhatever rates we pay. Having then both sid~ of the bargain iii our own hands, we are under 

double obligation to be just and reasonable to them. It certainly would 

not do to pay these roads the price earned per car per mile run for freight, as suggested by the gentleman from Kansas [Mr. A.....·•mERSO~] in a question to the gentleman from Michigan; because all the expenses are different; the speed is different, delivery is different, andeverythingisdifferent. 

But it is reasonable and it is just to pay t.o the roads the same price paid 

for plSSenger cars, because the cars supplied by the companies are ex- pensive; they are _better lig~ted and better heated and they run upon 

the same trains on which the passengeTs are carried. It is just and 

reasonable therefore to make the pay for the rail way post-offices the same as for passengers. And it has been calculated that 25 cents per 

inile per car run is a just compensation, because it is a certain business, 

and while not quite as large as the average earnings, as shown by the 

reports of these several' railroads in their passenger business, there is 

enough in the regularity and certainty of the compensation to make 

up for that. Besides that there is the additional feature which permits extra pay for every two miles up to a speed of thirty miles per 

hour, n.nd every one mile up to forty miles per hour. This more than 

makes up the difference. 

So I again say, Mr. Chairman, that the bill as reported was a fair one. I was unaware till an hour ago that the subcommittee had changed 

their views as to the relative rate of pay, and had fixed it at 4 mills instead of 5 mills per linear foot. In my judgment that is not sufficient. 

I do not say anything about the clause as to the Pacific railroads, 

the land-grant roads. In my opinion they should be paid precisely 

what other roads are paid; and if they are indebted to the Government 

for assistance given in their construction, that does nQt at all release us of the obligation to treat them justly and fuirly. They should be made 

to pay their debts to the Government, a;nd they should be paid a fair 

compensation for services· rendered to the Government, to be credited 

to their account. · 

I find, then, in this bill all the elements that are required in the 

postal service. First, the space occupied, and that space fixed by the 

weight carried. The next element is the frequency with which the 

Rervice is performed. The next is the speed with which the mails are 

carried. In every branch of the service we have been accustomed to 

have frequency, and to-day there is no excuse for any bill that leaves out 

this element of compensation. If it is a benefit to transport the m~ls 

from one point to another in twelve hours and we have thought it ex- pedient and proper to pffer other inducements in larger pay for quicker 

mails, why should it not be embodied in one general law, that will induce th~ railroad companies oftheUnitedStates toincreasetheirspeed 

and tbe frequency of their mail trains? 

Why, sir, we have leaving New York every day four great trains that 

carry nothing but mail-neither passengers nor express nor baggage. 

Of course these companies must have extra inducements, because their 

trains have to leave at hours fixed by the postmaster at New York. In 

the British system the postmaster-general has the right to fix the schedule of departure and of arrival, the time of delay at the several stations, 

and the time for arriving at and leaving stations; but the postmastergeneral fixes a compensation commensurate with this extra service, 

something that is Just and reasonable, to compensate these roads for the 

facilities they extend to the government. In any system ·of service· 

rendered by citizens of the United States to the Government they should 

be paid exactly for what they do. If a solitary company to-day receives 

insufficient pay from the United States for this service rendered in carrying its mail, this bill proposes to give them exactly what they earn and no more. 

It is unjust to the Government that the sympathies of the House 

should be appealed to to pay more to a small road because it is small or poor, when it does not earn the money by the service it renders to 

the Government. There is but one standard that this Hause, in justice 

to itself and injustice to the railroads of the: country, can adopt, and 

that is a uniform reasonable rate of compensation for all roads for the 

service rendered. When we go beyond that, we undertake to subsidize the small roads to put a life into them which they have not in themselves. On the other hand, we do not propose-to use the language of 

the gentleman from :Michigan [Mr. HoRR]-to rob ~he big roads of 

money to which they are entitled by reasonoftheit services. ~Ir. TILLMAN. Will the gentleman from Mi~issippi [Mr. MONEY] 

permit me to ask him a question? 

:Mr. MONEY. . Yes, sir. . 

Mr. TILLMAN. Why is it that the compensation on the small staT 

routes is much ·greater in proportion to the weight of the mail car- ried than on the routes where there are heavier mails? 

Mr. MONEY. I will answer that with pleasure. The star routes are open to the world, and every man in the country is at libertq to bid 

for that service, the Government taking the lowest bidder. The Government can not compel a man to carry the mails by his wagon, his 

horse, or his stage-coach, but the railroads are compelled to carry the 

mails-compelled not by law but by public opinion. A railroad that 

runs through a populous country, connecting great cities, bound together by domestic ties and by the thousand ties of business and politics, can not afford to decline to carry the mails, because if it does its 

competitors will take all the traile. So in dealing with the railroads 

'the Government fixes the rate at which they shall be compensated; it 

does not invite competition between them, it simply fixes the rate that 

it will pay. 

Ur. TILLMAN. I wish to ask the gentleman another question. Can 

not a road running between largo cities and carrying with many passengers large amounts of freight and making several round trips a day, 

afford to carry the mails for much less tl:m.n a poor railroad can, run- ning through a sparsely settled country and making but one trip a day? 

I ask ihe gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. MONEY] if in his judgment 

the compensation ought to be on the same basis for a poor road having 

but little freight or travel and making but one trip a day, and a large 

road between two great cities? Ought not the poor road to have more 

pay in proportion than the other ? 

1\Ir. MONEY. The gentleman's question is an argument against his own position, because this bill fixes auniformstandardrate of compensation based upon weight, frequency, and speed. If a railroad does a large business, its space is valuable in proportion, and therefore the 

Government ought to pay for it. 

Mr. TILLJI'IAN. But is not the element of frequency entirely eleminated on the poor road? 

Mr. l\IONEY. If a road runs through a sparsely settled country, and 

does not domuchbusiness, itfollows that its space is notveryvaluable. 

Mr. HORR. That is not the point. 

Mr. MONEY. Let me finish my answer to the gentleman from South 

Carolina [.Mr. TILLMAN]. He says that fi:equency ought not to be con- sidered in regulating the pay on a small road . . Now, it costs just as 

much to run a car at one time in the day as at another, and if two 

trains are run, the spa-ce upon one of them is presumed to be just as valuable as upon the other. · :Mr. HORR. But this is a point to be considered. A little road takes a smaJl number of linear feet, from four and a half up to thirteen. It 

can not takeover thirteen unill it gets over fiv-e hunurcd pounds of mail. 

Can not a road afford to sell one hundred and eighty or three hundred 

and sixty feet of space every day at a cheaper mte per foot than it can :i.fford to sell nine, ten, or up to thirteen feet ? Yet you give them all 

precisely the same rate per foot, no rna tter how much or how little space 

they sell. 

Mr. MONEY. When a road gets into that position which my friend 

from Michigan and my frjend from South Carolina describe, it is protected by the provision that it shall not reeeive less than $35 a mile. 

Such a road as gentle~peil describe is not worth more than $35 a mile 

to the Government or to anybody else, and whenever the value of its 

space increases there will be more frequent trips. But the cost of a certain amount of spare is just as great upon one train as upon another; 

and if the Government demands a certain space upon any train, it 

ought to be willing to pay for it. In every other department of the 

service we pay for frequency andspeed,-and we do so properly. If we 

can save twelve hours between Chicago and New York, how valuable 

that is to the merllhants of these great cities! Why, sir, a merchant in 

New Orleans has informed me that the value to -the merchants of the 

fast mail between that city and New York would pay the whole cost 

of it, and a. merchant of Denver states that a fast mail between New 

York and Denver, passing through the great cities of Chicago and Saint 

Louis, would save a thousand dollars a year to him alone. This mail 

service is for the benefit of all the people of the Union. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have a very compassionate feeling for the 

small roads, because the roads that run through my country are generally of that class. The greatest road that runs through my State 

carries only 4,000 pounds of mail per day. I allude to the southern 
, 

1438· CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

section of the illinois Central. It carriesonly4,000 poundsaday, and 

that only once a day. It runs. two passenger trains, but only one of 

them is a mail train. It does not carry more than one mail a day, be- cause under the present system the Government does not give more for 

carrying two mails a day than for carrying one, unless you make the 

appropriation which is left out of this bill for special facilities on great 

trunk lines. · 

Now recollect that 90 per cent. of all the mails of the Union are distributed upon these trains; and whenever you expedite a solitary mail 

on any railroad of the United States you expedite by exactly that much 

every star-route fed by these great trunk lines. · The mail system of 

the whole Union has ita rami.fi..cations in every section and every com- munity, and the service to every citizen is quickened by any expedition 

of the schedule on any of these roads. In every sense of the wo~d, 

looking at the interest of the Governmentofthe United States and the 

interest of every citizen enjoying the benefits of postal communica.tion, 

this bill is a fair and just one, and a measurable improvement over the old system of weighing the mails, which is partial and one-sided to 

the last degree. Why, sir, as the matter stands to-day, the discrepancy 

in pay, comparing the small roads with the great ones, is as eight to 

ninety-six in relation to the service performed; in other words, one road 

is paid twelve times as much as the other roads for the service it renders. 

It is not the province of Congress to say that because a railroad does a great business it should not have reasonable pay for its service, and 

when, in a bill of general character like this, we undertake to say that, 

subject to the discretion of the Postll}.aster-General, we will discriminate, fixing one price for one road and another price for another road, 

we at once open the door for a flood of corruption which would sweep 

through the whole mail service of the country. 

1tfr. REAGAN. Has the committee ascertained what the first-class 

roads-those carrying the heaviest mails-would receive under this 

system? . Mr. MONEY. I have seen no figures based upon this system, and I 

do not know of any. I have none myself. 

Mr . .HORR. What was the question? • Mr. M'ONEY. The gentleman from Texas asked whether I knew 

what the main trunk lines would receive under this new system. This 

matter was explained by the gentleman from Michigan [.M:r. HORR]. 

I do not recollect his figures. But it; matters not, Mr. Chairman, what 

may be the amount that these roads will receive in the aggregate. I 

am trying to impress upon the mind of this House the fact that under 

this .system each road will receive exactly what it earns, and will not 

receive one dollar unless itdoesearnit. ThisHousecouldexpectnothj.ug more, and could offer nothfug less. We can afford to be just to our own citizens, whether corporations or private individuals, especially 

when we compel these corporations by force of public opinion to do this 

service for the Government, whether they wish to do it or not, and at a 

price which we ourselves fix. · M.r. REAGAN. Does notthe gentleman think the Houseis entit.led 

to iufo.nn.ation from the committee as to what the cost would be per 

mile on these great roads for carrying the mails under the system proposed? 

Mr. HORR. I told you the cost. 

1t1r. MONEY. I said that the gentleman from Michigan had the 

figures. In this connection I will say that, according to the figures of 

experts who have thoroughly examined the question, this system will save over $1,678,000 per annum. That is the estimated saving to the 

Government on the present basis of pay and the present basis of business. Of course this great business is constantly enlarging. It is estimated 

that for the current year the increase will be about 9 per cent. So the 

extension of business goes ont marking the development of our countryt 

its population, its wealth, &c. There is no better index of the progress 

of this country than the· extension of and perfection of our great postal 

system, as shown by the reports of this Department year after year. 

.Af3 I have said, the basis of pay contemplated by this bill is a fair one. If a railroad chooses to make thirty miles an hour or moret it 

will get a proportionate increase of pay for every mile of additional 

speed. This is proper and just. It costs more to run a fast train than a slow one. The consumption of rolling-stock, road-bed, and track is 

greater. Everything points to additional expense, which is attempted 

to be met by the provisions of this bill. 

Thel'e are some features embraced in the bill of the Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads which the Committee on Appropriations 

have not thought it expedient to incorporate in this bill. I will engage 

in no sort of dispute about that. I am willing to take this measure as 

it is. This bill, following in this respect the bill reported by the PostOffice Committee, leaves as it is the relative status of the land-grant 

roads and the other roads. Not that I think there is any justice in 

this discrimination, as I have said awhile ago; but we had no disposition to disturb the law as it stands, knowing the House to be inclined, as it has been previously, to make that distinction. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I come to another provision of the bill, if the 

House will bear with me, to which I propose to address myself. That 

is in regard to the reduction of newspaper postage. The postage on 

newspapers is really a tax on the pu~lishers of these papers. They pay 

this much to the Government for permission to do their business. It 

is a relic of that class of taxes which ha8 almost entirely faded away. 

All the other taxes in relation to postage are levied on the people of the 

United States. They are paid by the beneficiaries of the postal system. These are paid by the publishers. It is evident inequality and 

injustice was rendered necessary ·in some degree by the collection of 

postage on newspapers, as that was uncertain under the old system and 

very unsatisfactory. Thereforet to make the whole system of prepayment ofpostage uniform it was necessary to provide newspapers should 

also prepay, withdrawing the burden from the millions of readers to the 

shoulders of the publishers themselves. 

[Here the hammer fell.] 

Mr. HUNT. 1\11'. Chairman, the gentleman from illinois [Mr. 

TOWNSHEND] who opened thisdiscussionstated to the committee that some legislation was ab olutely necessary to transport the mails of the 

United States to foreign ports. The bill before the House, at line 228, 

provides: 

For transporting the mails of the United States in American steamships be· tween any port of _the United States and any foreign port, or between ports ot 

the Atlantic and ports of the Pacific touching at any foreign port, an amonnt not exceeding $600,000 of the net revenues of the Post-Office Department of the 

United Stat.es on mail-matter sent to foreign countries during the fiscal year next preceding the date of the contract for said service : .Prwided, That the contract --for said service shall be entered into by the Postmaster-General only after legal advertisement with the lowest responsible bidder, for a term not exceeding four 

years, and at a rate not to exceed 50 centsperm.ileon the trip each way ofactual 

nautical miles tl-a.veled between terminal ports for e!Wh trip actually made, 

which shall not be increased on account of expedition or increased number of 

trip : Prm.'ided further, That the general laws regulating the transportation of 

inland Dlilils shall be applicable to such contracts, except as herein provided: .And prO'llided further, That vessels engaged in this service shall be of American 

registry, and shall, in time of war, be liable to charter or purchase by the United 

States at reasonable rates; and all laws and parts of laws in conflict with the 

provisions of this acb be, and the same are hereby, repealed; and this act shall 

take effect from and after July 1, l.B&i. 

The remark of the gentleman from illinois that some legislation is 

indispensably necessary becomes evidently true when we consider what was done at the last session of Congress. Congress then repealed sec- tions 3976 and 4203 of the Revised Statutes of the United States re- quiring American ve..."Sels engaged in ·the foreign trade to carry the 

mails at a sum not exceeding the sea and inland postage. The repeal 

of these sections having taken place, it is apparent some additional 

legislation has become absolutely necessary. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Will the gentleman allowmejust there to askhim a que ti.on? 

. Mr. HUNT. Certainly. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Is not the gentleman from Louisiana a member of 

the committee that liad charge of the shipping bill? 

Mr. HUNT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BLOUNT. Then I desire to know whether the object of repeal- . ing those sections of the Revised Statutes of the United States was not 

to prepare the way for this jncrease of compensation for carrying the 

mails? 

Mr. HUNT. I will answer with pleasure. 

Ur. BLOUNT. If that be true, I furth~r inquire of the gentleman 

whether we can not re-enact in this bill the law as it stood prior to the 

repeal of tho e sections of the Revised Statutes? 

bfr. HUNT. I will answer as I go on. Under the sections referred 

to Ameri<;an >essels engaged in foreign trade were compelled to carry 

the mails. These vessels might be detained for such limit of time as suited the Post-Office, and were obliged to deliver the mails to the 

foreign ports to which they were bound and to the Po t-Office Department itself. For this service the Post-Office Department paid the inadequate sum of.2 cents a letter. Instances are stated to be numerous where American vessels have been detained by the Postmaster-General, to receive the mails and to deliver them, when the pay for carrying did not compensat-e the vessels for detention and cartage of letters 

at the port of destination . 

The injustice so occasioned by the sections of the Revised Statutes 

referred to by the unanimous action of Congress was removed by the 

enactment of the shipping bill, providing for the repeal of these sec- tions, to take effect from and after the 1st of April, 1885. The o11ject 

of deferring the operation of the repeal of the sections was to enable 

Congress at its present session to legislate suitably in the premises, the 

Postmaster-General being without warrant of law (when his power of 

compulsion had been removed) to make contracts with American ves- sels engaged in the foreign trade for carriage of the United States mails 

ex<_:ept to the extent of the amount of sea and inland postage, which 

was fixed by the international postal treaties and made without regard 

to the extent of the service rendered and which was conceded on aU 

sideS to be inadequate. 

Congress, then, 1\Ir. Chairman, is brought to this conditiont that there 

is now no power in the Postmaster-General to compel \essels to carry 

the mails as was formerly the case; and the only resomce left him ia 

tO attempt to enter into contracts at ra~s which are Ukely·to be declined as entirely inadequate, and whic4 in the judgment of the Shitr 

ping Committee· are contrary to sound public policy. In order that 

this may appear satisfactorily to the committee I have procured a sta~ 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-· HOUSE. 1439 

ment from the Post-Office Department showing the sums paid for the I South America during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1884,·· by the ocean conveyance of mails between the Jfnited ~tates and Mexico and lines of vessels there!n employed. The table is as follows: 

State-ment slwwing the S!tms paid fr;r the ocean conveyance of mails exclw.nged between the United States and Mexico and South America dul'ing the fiscal 

yea1· ended June 30, 1884, and the lines of vessels employed i1t the conveyance of said 'm!fils. 

MEXICO. 

Lines. 

New York, Havana, and Mexican Mail Steamship Company_ .... , ............. .. Do .......................................................................................................... . California and Mexican Steamship Company ............................................... . New York and Cuba Mail Line .................................................................... .. Pacific Mail Steamship Company .................................................................. .. Do ........................................................................................................ .. Morgan Line ................................................................................................. .. Do .......................................................................................................... . Steamer Estado de Sonora ........................................................................ .... .. ·Steamer E.D.Sidbury ................................................................................... .. 

Termini of services. 

New York to Mexico ........................... : ....................................................... .. New Orleans to 1\lexico ................................................................................ . San Francisco to 1\Iexico ......... , .................................................................... .. New York to 1\Iexico .................................................................................. .. New York to 1\lexico .................................................................................... . San Francisco to Mexico ............................................................................... . New Orleans to Mexico ................................................................................ . Galveston to 1\Iexico .................................................................................... .. San Francisco to 1\lexico .............................................................................. .. New Orleans to 1\fexico ................................................................... ~ .......... .. 

Amount 

paid. 

U,264 54 873 80 27842 

43 47 31 914.74 

832 85 3877' 

l2:rT 

8U 

Total. .... .-................................... ,.......................................................... . .............................................................. :........................................................ 7, 271 :rT 

SOUTH AMERICA. 

Atlas Steamship Company .......... : ........................................................... : ..... .. Pacific 1\lail Steamship Company ................................................................ .. Do ........................................................................................................ .. Do ........................................................................................................... . Do .......................................................................................................... . Do .......................................................................................................... . Do ........................................................................................................... . Do ......................................................................................................... .. Do .......................................................................................................... . Do .......................................................................................................... . Do ................................................................. : ........................................ . Do ........................................................................................................... . 

~aa!. ~~ur2:.~.:.~~-~~~-~~~~~~:.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Steamer Craig hill ............................................................................................ . United States and Brazill\lail Steamship Company .................................... .. Do ........................................................................................................ .. Do .......................................................................................................... . 

~~~t~!~alli~.~ .. ?.~~~~~~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::·:::::.:·:.:·::::::~·::::::::.:::: Red Cross Line ............................................................................................. . Steamer 1\Iendoza .......................................................................................... .. Steamer Jennie .............................................................................................. .. Do ............... ................. .......................................................................... . United Sta.tesand River Plata Line ................................................................ . Simpson, Spence & Young's steamers ........................................................... .. Do ......................................................................................................... .. 

New York to U{lited StAtes of Colombia ...................................................... . New York to United States of Colombia .................................................... .. New York to Colon for Chili ................................................................. ; ..... .. New Y®rk to Colon for Ecuador .................................................................. . New York to Colon_ for Peru ....................................................................... .. New York to British packet agent, Colon ................................................... .. New York to British packet agent, Panama. .............................................. .. San Francisco to United States consul, Panama ......................................... . San Francisco to United States of Colombia ................................ : ............... . San Francisco to Panama for Chili. ............................................................ .. San Francisco to Panama for F-cuador ........................................................ . San Francisco to Panama for Peru ............................................................. .. New York to United States of Colombia .......................................... .-........ . New York to Venezuela ............................................ : ................................. .. New York to Venezuela .............................................................................. .. New York to Brazil ..................................................................................... .. Ba1timore to Brazil ...................................................................................... . New York to Rio de Janeiro for Argentine Republic, &c. .......................... .. New York to Brazil. ..................................................................................... . New York to Brazil ....................................................................................... . New York to Rio de Janeiro for Argentine Republic, &c ............................ . 

New York to Argentine Republic ................................................................ . New York to Brazil ...................................................................................... . New York to Rio de Janeiro for Argentine Republic, &c ............................ . New York to Argentine Republic, Uruguay, &c .......................................... .. New York to Brazil. ..................................................................................... . New York to Rio de Janeiro for Argentine Republic, &c .......................... .. 

466 31 1,960 as 

1,429 01 380 42 1,498 83 

504 

4558 

68 78 9484. 

14398 

797 

74.76 

3.2 l2 756 (X) 

69 

3,567 65 143 71 

1,234 84 219 ID 

2M 71 5041 

87 52 

8775 

65 10 195 70 zn :r; 95 74 

Total. ................................................. ."................................................... 13,324. 4.3 

If we turn from this view of the case of carrying the mails to Mexico 

and South Ainerica to the amounts paid for the whole foreign mail serv- ice for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1884, the results are equally sur- prising and discreditable to the liberality of the Government and its sense of justice. The total sum so expended is $327,207.91. The 

table is as follows: 

favor of the bill now before the. committee. By steamboat from San 

Francisco, Cal., to Eureka, Cal., we paid $6,500 a year, or at the rate 

of 58 cents a mile; from Portland, Oreg., to the Dalles, $7,487, or 21 

cents per mile. From Seattle to Sehome, Wash., we paid $8,439.83, at 

32centspermile. FromPortTownsend, Wash., to Sitka, in Alaska, we paid at the rate of$1.23 cents a mile, or $16,000 annually. From San 

Francisco, Cal., to Portland, Oreg., we paid $22,000, or 69 cents per 

mile. From New Tacoma, Wash., to Port Townsend, in Washington 

Territory, we paid $29,700, or 97 cents per mile, while during the same period we p~d 3 cents a mile to the Pacific Mail Steamship 

Company and 3 cents to the Ph~adelphia and Queenstown line. What 

difference is there in the nature of things between the mail service of 

the country on the routes which I have now enumerated and the mail 

service of the country upon the ocean of which I have just spoken? Is 

it not performed under circumstances strikingly similar, except in re- gard of greater risk, greater adventure, and the conCQI'Ilofgreater capital on the ocean routes? 

.Amonnt paid for the wltole foreign mail service during the fiscal year ended 

June 30, 1884. _ 

fFEi~~!t·:··::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::_:::::::::::.:::·:::::::::::::::::_::: 1~:!* ii 

Total ......... .................................... ..................... ...... .................. 327,207 91 

Amount paid to American and amount paid to foreign lines during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1884. 

Service. American. Foreip. Total. 

Tt·ansatlantic........................................ $2,833 20 $268,116 24 $270,94.9 « 

Trans-Pacific......................................... 16,883 97 2,241 81 19,1.25 78 1\Hscellaneous....................................... 30, 259 33 6, 873 36 :rT, 132 69 I----------1----------I---------- Total............................................ 49,976 50 277,231 4.1 327,207 91 

Amount paid to the Pacific 1\Ia.il Steamship Company during the fis- cal year ended June 30, 1884. ............................................................. $21, 521 36 .Amount paid to the American line (Philadelphia to Queenstown) 

during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1884......................................... 2,83.'J 20 

If from this statement we turn, Mr. Chairman, to t_he coastwise and 

steamboat mail service of the country we find a contrast, and a striking 

contrast, which I desire to present as one of the strongest arguments in 

No. of route. From- ToUpon what system of correct reasoning, or upon what considerations 

of a wise and expansive public policy, can the Legislature in.sist upon 

the continuance of liberal rates such as I have spoken of in connection 

with steamboat routes, and refuse at the same time like compensation 

to steamships engaged in the transportation of the mails of the United 

States on the ocean? · Now, if we turn from the steamboat lines to the star-ron te service we find that also enumerated in the official tables. From Cedarville, Cal., 

to Reno, :JS"ev., 20 cents a. mile is paid, 9r $11,328 a year; from Bieber, 

Cal., to Lake View, Oreg., 27 cents a mile, or $11,500 annual pay, and so on the table goes, showing pay all the way from 20 cents per mile 

up to 45 cents. The table is as follows:-c=-·-

Pay per Miles • . mile. Trips. Annual 

pay. 

46162 

46155 

:r1116 

42121 

46153 

41111 

~i::;,~:i.~~~:.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: r:k~·if!!;;·o~~·g::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.::::::: Green River City, Idaho .. :................. Fod Washakie, Wyo ............................ .. 

177 . 

115t 

153~ 

267 

200f 

5W 

Six times a. week ............................... . Seven times a. week ........................ ; .. Seven times a week ......................... .. 

$11,328 00 11,500 00 

13,000 00 

26,700 00 34,512 03 ~~~~~~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: l~m~!;;~:~~:·:·-_:_:_:.:_:.-::-::;:.::·:·:·:·::·:·:~·:·:·::.::::::: 57,665 97 

Seven times a. week ......................... .. Seven times a week ......................... .. Seven times a week: .......................... . 
1440 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

Again, 'Mr. Chairman, if we tum .to the exlllbit of the Post-Office According to the statement there is a net excess of expenditure up to 

Department regarding the inland service of ·to-day we find that there date of over $3,000,000. . , · are only ten States in the Union th~ mail service of which is self-sus- The table is as follows, and is accompanied by the annexed communitaming. · · cation of the Second Assistant Postmaster-General: 

Statement of the_ excess of postal receipts and expenditures of the United States by States . . 

1882. 1883. 18&!. 

States and Territories. Excessofreceipts Excessofexpend- Excessofl·eceipts E:xcessofexpend- Excessofreceipts Excess of ex- over expendi- itures over re- over expend.i- itures over re- over expend.i- pend.itureso,·er tures. ceipts. tures. ceipts. tures. · receipts. 

I 

Maine................................................................. f84, 084 M .............................. $44, 618 76 ..... •.••·.·.•.•• •.·.• ..... .• ...... .• •.• • .... •.••·•••••• ............... ,.1 .. 8 .... 058 ...... 4

.

0 .............. ·&1···8··'·3-·28····3-·1·' New Hampshire................................................ 72, 947 74 .............................. 63,065 20 "' 

~=~~it;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I,~ g: ~g :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I, Ji: ~ ~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ............. 9i6,'006'62' , ............ ~:.~ .. :~ Rhode Island ................ ;..................................... 1M,W 41 ............................. 14.9, 618 51 ........................... ... 124.,G38 22 .......................... . Connecticut........................................................ 201, 910 30 ............... ........ ....... 238, 548 23 .. ....... ...... ........ ....... 13.5, 463 91 · .......................... . New York ...................................................... .'... 2,601,4.09 90 .............................. 2,813,729 82 .............................. 2,312,695 24 ................. ......... . New Jersey........................................................ 174,214 85 .............................. 249,603 62 ........................ ...... 143,517 59 .......................... . Pennsylvania...................................................... I,017,439 55 ............... ............... 987,170 58 .............................. 560,677 81 .......................... . 

~"i:r~................................. .......................... 19,159 65 ............... ti-2;148'60' 22,301 47 "'""'""''i29,'73i20' 8,162 00 ............ i25''862"44 Virgini~ .. :::::::.:·.:::::::::::::::::::::::·.:·.:::::::::::::·.:::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 312,734 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 331,636 19 :::·.:::::::::::::::::::::::::: 408:972 90 West Virginia.................................................... .. .. ..... .. .. .... .. . . .. . .. .. .. 18, 030 30 . .. ............ ... .. . .. . .... .. 33, 199 06 .. .......... .... ... . .. .. .. .. .. 76, 920 IO North Carolina................................................... ........................ ...... 135, 698 37 ........................ ... .. . 155,481 23 .............................. 'lfYl, 191 96 

South Carolina ........................................................................... _.... 104, 657 G5 .............. ... ....... ...... 109,758 18 ...... ......... ...... ......... 159, 693 36 

~:OOr~:.::::::::::::::~::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::·::::::::::::::::::::::: nl:m ~I :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ~~ ~ .............................. ~·~: Ohio.......................... ........................................................................ 240,4.94 41 .............. 333 ....... 902 ...... 6

.

1 ... ··············4·30···;··1·60····28···· · :::::::::::::::~~.:: :: ::: ::: •.•.••.••.•. 84.5 ••. -.. :.4M .••.•• 4. •• 2. Michigan............................................................ 340, 673 83 .. ....... ... .. ........... .... ,,., 

Inmana................................................................ 3,366 40 .............................. ............ .. 85 ... _.,, .. 3

.

1 .. 9 ... 1

.

5 ... ··············1·30···'··37··'·4···61···· .............. .;:.·7 .... 400 ...... 38 .... ············29···4,···00····2···53··· Illinois............................................................... 664, 308 55 . .. ..................... .... .. .,.. 

Wisconsin .. .. ......... ..... ..... .. . .... .. .. ......... ..... .. .. .. .... 136, 88.3 78 ............ '... .... .. .. ..... . 110151,' ~68 6312 ................. • •. •• ••••• .... •• •• ••• ••·• • ·• •• ·• •. . ••• · ..... ••••• •• ·.- ....... •••••• ••••• ... •• •. •. ·.·.·.·.·... 137601,' 8354.07 9062 low a................................................................... 146,373 35 .............................. _ Missouri .............................................. ............... .... ~ .... ; ...... ,............. 107,973 18 .............................. 103,477 45 .............................. 480,383 M Kentucky......................................................................................... 00,460 27 .............................. 112,944 01 .............................. 171,089 63 Tennessee .......................................................... .................... :......... 19,450 24 .............................. 21,136 41 .............................. lll,210 62 ·Alabama.......................................................................................... 183,430 24 .............................. 177,202 65 ............... ............... 238,4.94. 53 1\Iississippi......................................................... .............................. 94, 183 06 .............................. 1(J1, 477 78 .............................. 186,082 f!l 

Arkansas ................................................... ~-.... ........................ ..... 189,412 95 ...... ........................ 165,972 83 .............................. 208,602 28 

Louisiana........................................................... ...... ...... ............. ..... 75, 379 04 ...... ........................ 79, 487 59 ............... ............... I20, 660 75 Texas................................................................. .............................. 459,019 3·1 .............................. 302,437 67 .............................. 431,33:1 03 California......................................................................................... U08,3.'H 28 .................. ............ 277,016 91 .............................. 4.17,188 SI 

Oregon............................................................................................ 1~. 981 01 ................. 0.: .. 004 ...... 1

.

8 ... ···············7·5··'··9·1··5···1·4··· ·.·.· ........... ·•·•·•·•• .• •.•.·.•.·.·.•.·.•.· .... •••.•••••. ~ •• 308 369 ~ l'olinnesota. .. ......................... ........ .......... ...... ...... 22, 496 02 .................... .... ...... ~-.rJ ""' 

Kansas..................................................................... ........................ 2.'50,167 21 .............................. 283,084 56 .............................. 362,276 4.2 Nebraska. .............................................. - ........... .............. :............... 501,801 79 .................... .. ........ 545,45I 59 .................... ......... 596,41189 

~~~~~~·:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: l:n: ~ ~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: f~: ~~ n :::::::::::::~::::::::::::::: g~: ~~ : 

Utah .................................................................. .............................. 230, 210 53 .............................. 154,640 19 .......... ,................... 180,996 73 New Mexico ......................................................... _......................... GS, 417 37 .............................. 51,803 57 .............................. 111,366 59 

Washington .. .......... ............... .......... .......... ....... ............ ............ ...... ~. 400 36 . ........ .... .. . . .. . . .. ...... 93, !J33 43 .... .. .... ........ ...... ...... I10, 892 66 

Dakota.............................................................................................. 00,652 20 21,175 .36 ............................... ......... : ... :..... ........... 39, 0CJ7 22 Arizona ........................... ....... K.......................... .............................. 225, 320 51 ..................... ........ 118,019 35 ............ .................. 14.9,819 77 Idaho .......................................... :....................... ............ ............ ...... 141,712 55 ......... ..................... 88, 41'18 87 ........................ ...... 105,356 20 

=~~::.~::::::::::·:::.:::::::::::·:::.:::::::::::::::::::::::·:.:·:.:: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 1~:~ ~~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ~:~~ ~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ~:~ ~ Alaska............................................................... 160 33 ....... ....................... 230 73 ........................................... :................ 1, 600 33 

DistrictofColumbia........................................... .............................. 58,003 26 ........... _. ....... .. ....... 69,35812 ...................... ;....... 109,14143 

Indian Territory................................................ ...... .................. ...... 84,300 78 ............ ...... .. .... ...... 30,143 44 .............................. 42, 086 96 

Total......................................................... 6,740,2.54 48 1 5,184,9% 58 ! 7,122,40215 4, 707,277 85 4,606,982.69 1 8,291,942,40 

5,184,996 58 .............................. , 4,707,277 85 ...................................................... ;..... 4,606,982 69 

Net excess ................................. :............... 1,555,257 90 , ......................... : .... , 2,41.5,124 30 , .............................. , ......... ..................... , 3,684,959 71 

PosT-OFFICE DEPRA:RTMENT, 

OFFICE OF THE SECOND AssiSTANT POSTMA TER-GENERAL, 

Washington, D. C., January(), 1885. 

SIR: In compliance with the verbal request made by you, I herewith transmH a statement showing the postal receipts and expenditures in the respective States and •.rerritories of the United States during the years 1882, 1883, and 1884. For a tatement of the cost of service on six of the la1·gest steam boat routes I ·would refer you to the statement furnished by this office, January 8,1884, appear- ing in the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD of May 1,.188-! (page 36;)"1), there having been no material change in the cost of steamboat service since thn.t date. 

Very respectfully, 

Hon. CARLETON HlTh"'T, House of Represen,atives. 

W. B. THOl\IPSON, 

Second .Assista1d Postmasler-Gen.eml. 

· If, then, we consider the condition of the country, now that it can no longer insist upon the carriage of the mails, as it were, for nothing; if 

we compare the carriage of the foreign-going mail with the sums paid 

for the steamboat and star-route service; if we look at the sums paid 

for the carriage of the mail to· South America and :Mexico; if we regard 

the amounts paid to the coastwise service; if we bear in mind that the 

liberality of the Department is extended, for example, to a line from 

Morgan City to Galveston, or in that neighborhood, at the rate of$38,000 

a year; if we recall at the same time the nature of the ocean service, the 

difliculties therein involved, the enterprise concerned, and the capital 

of our citizens invested, there can be no justification w~tsoever for 

witholding larger compensation. The present view is made perfect, and I am brought near to a close 

in connection with it when I ask the consideration of the committee to 

what is proposed to be done by the bill. I hold in my hand a statement showing the net revenue of the Post-Office Department on mail 

matter sent to and received from foreign countries during the fiscal 

year ending June 30, 1884. The total receipts are $2,157,622.63; the 

total expenditures are $1,431,893. 77, and the net revenue, $725,728.86. 

This net revenue is reached necessarily after making an deductions, and 

especially a deduction upon the highest estimate of the cost of interior 

mail service. • 

The bill propo es of this net revenue to devote $600,000 in payment 

for the carriage of the maiL And it proposes to do so under all the re- straints which are usual in other branches of the service. 

The statement is as follows: 

Statement slwwing, approxiflUdely, tlte net revenues of tlte Post-Office Department of tlw United States on mai'l matter sent to and received fron~ 

foreign countries during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1884! based upon 

tlle tabulated estimate of mail matter exclwnged durin,q tltat period given, on page 639 of. the Postmaster-General's 1·eport for 1884. 

RECEIPTS, 

Amount of postages prepaid on letters sent abroad ..... $l, 511,94.7 80 

Amount of postages prepaid on postal cards sent abroad.................. .. ........ ........ ................................... I9, 902 I6 

Amount of postages prepaid on printed matter sent abroad........................................................................ 468, 298 46 Amount collected on unpaid mail matter received...... 134,481 I7 Forty per cent. on $57,457.60 of registration fees on 5741 576 registered articles sent abroad-this being estimated as net profit on registration........................... 22,993 ()( 

Total receipts .................. 4 .............. .......................................... 2,157, 622 63 
1B85. OONGRESSIONAL-RECORD-HOUSE. 1441 

B1·ought fo1·wnrd-Total receipts ...... , ................. ~ ........................... $2,157,622 63 

ExPENDITURES. 

Amount paid for sea co.nveyapccs, other _ than intermediary or transit, namely ......... $33!!, 2!!1 21 

Amount paid foreign administrations for intermediary, territol'ial, and sea t.ransit of United 

States mails................................ $30, 319 00 I~ess amount received for similar 

service performed for said administrations by the United 

'='tate ......................................... 2, 756 09 

· --- u27,622 91 Net cost or maintaining the Shanghai and Panama postal a-gencies .... : ......... :............. b2, 283 15 

United States share Qf support of interna- ' · tiona) bureau and subscription for" l'union po tale" .................................................... b676 95 

.Estimated cost of interior (domestic) mail 

sel'\"ice on 61,732,049 letter sent and re- ceived-three letters-to one ounce--20;577,-

349 ounces, 2 cents per half-ounce ............ . 2,001,131 postal cards sent and received, at 1 cent each ..................... : ............................ . 42,460,248 packets of fruits, &c., 816,699 pack- ets of samples sent and received=43,216,857 

823,093 96 

29,611 31 

$362,804 22 

ounces, atl cent for two ounces ........... ;..... 216,384 28 __ ___;_· -1,069,()89 55 

Total expenditures: ................................................................ 1, 4.31, 893 77 

~ct revenue ............................ ,............................................... 725,728 86 

N t revenue, without charge for estimated cost of intel"ior service as above, viz: $1,069,~.5~ ($2,157,622.63-$362,804.22) .................. I, 794.,818 4.1 

(a) Transit accounts for the year only partially adjusted and settled. When 

,;ettled the net amount of expense to the United States will probably read $90,000. 

(b) These expenses were not included in t.he similar stat em en t made f~r 1883. 

It is hardly necessary, Ur. Chairman, to say anything further in 

support of fQe view that I have laid before the CommittM of the Whole. 

But I will conclude by calling your attention to the recent statistics 

publishoo by the St'\te Departm~t to show how our commerce is affected by the prevailing penurious policy of the United States toward· 

_the ocean-~oing mail service. From a table just coni piled in the State 

Department, it appears that the exports from England, France, and 

the United States to Mexico, Central .and South Amer~ca, the Spanish 

West Indies, Hayti, and ·San Domingo, of cotton goods, iron n.nd steel, 

machines and implements of hardware and cutlery, &c., are as follows: 

From England, $112;183,000; from France, $77,213,000; -and from t-he 

United States only $64,000,000. . It appeal'S further, as to the trade of Brazil, while we import from 

that c.ountry products to the value of $53,000,000 against $29,000,000 

imported therefrom into England and $29,00(),000 into France, we ex- port thither goods_ to the value of only $8,000,000, while England sends 

to Brazil goods valued at $34,000,000 and France goods valued at 

$15,000,000. 

Of our total imports from South America the value of the goods 

brought in American vessels is 25,000,000, against a value of$49,000-

000 brought in foreign vessels. It is only in our imports from the 

Spanish West Indies: 1\Iexico, and Central America that American prevails over foreign tonnage, to wit: American vessels 53,000,000, against 

$22,000,000 in foreign vessels, Thus it appears that foreign vessels 

bring to the United States from those eountries double -the imports 

brought by American vessels. Th'e imports into the United States from 

South America in foreign vessels are '49,000,000, in 4-,merican vessels 

25,000,000. T,he exports from the United States to South America 

in American vessels are 19,000,000, and in foreign vessels $11,000,000. 

Our total imports from South America in foreign steam vessele were of 

the Yalue of $32,000,000, against 900,000 in American vessels. 

This result, it appea1-s, is brought about by the foreign policy in re- lation to commerce by steam sea-going vessels. 

The round trips of the great European liries of ste..'tm vessels are ex- pedited according to the following order: From Europe laden with European manufactures to ' South America; fi·om South America laden 

with ~outh American products to the United States; from the United 

States laden with our products to Europe; thus completing the circle to 

the advantage of European trade alone, only very few steam vessels car- rying American products to South AmCI·ica. 

Finally, .Mr. Chairman, I incorporate in my reptarks a table snowing 

the course_ of the foreign civilized countries in this regard: 

Table of subventions acc01·ded by variowfEt~ropean states to intemational steam-navigation lines. 

Amount of the subyentions. 

States. 

Per league. By other c1·iteria. . 

Years. Fran~. 

*5,000,000 

375,000 

15,4.30,145 

32,4.14,457 

5,000,000 

Francs. Miles. 

8tol2 

8 to!!! 

9 to 12 9to 12 

1 2. 85 to 10 .............. h ..... : ................ .-................................. , .. . ....... .. 

1 

to· 10 

1 

15 to 24 8 to 10 

15 

10 to 15 

10 

12 

............................. _ For 150 voyages .......................................................... .. 10 

2 

7 

2 

4 

4 

2 

.................. ........... : According kl the importance of the po~tal service ..... . 

1,000,000 

1,762,500 

........ :~--~-~~-~:!.~. ·"A~~~~di;;g·i~-ih·~-p~~i;·i·8;;;;i~;;·:::::::;::::::::::::::::::::::::::: • _ ·:···········"5'i"~'9.'75' --~-~~~-~.:~.~-~~-~-~~.:~~-~~-~-~-~~----.-.-.-:: ·::::::::::::::::·::::::::::: 

11 to 12l 

10 to 11 9 to 11 9to 10 

8to 10 

332,500 

8,689,5i6 ... -..................... ...... According to postal sel'V'ice~ ....................................... .. 

I 

* Other advantag-es. 

- The table proves that Austria, Hungary, England,_ France, Spain, 

Belgium, Holland, Germany, Italy, areallengagedin acom-seofliberal 

encouragement to their merchant marine. So that the fact is that while 

all the countries of the world that are civilized are engaged in encouraging ocean eteam navigation we alone have neglected our opportunity. 

A review of the debates upon this question in foreign countries-will indeed establish that the ocean-going steam vessel is considered.the herald 

of civilization. 

1\Ir. BLOUNT. Will the gentleman allow me a question? 

Mr. HUNT. The gentleman will excuse me, I will yield presently. 

It is the herald of civilization; it is the bearer of correspondence between 

merchant and mercha11t; it is the vehicle by which contractual relations are introduced, and the means by which in the end those contractual relations are brought tp rich results_ 

The_policy pursued by Great Britain, with characteristic enterprise 

and by tbe use of her almost boundless wealth (in the way of the circle 

of voyages which I have described), has been followed by a success which 

has brought to_ all Americans who have reflected, and who would have 

the policy of America liberal and flourishing,·the deepest regret for our own shortcomings in this respect. In this connection, Mr. Chairman, 

I will ask the Clerk to read to the House an extract from a message of 

Governor Cleveland, of New York, whose attention as an enlightened 

statesman had been brought to this very subject. He has formulated 

views which are similar to those that. I have expressed upon the floor 

to-day, and his early accession to the first offiee. in the Republic gives 

hope that the country is a~ut to have in the Executive chair a Chief 

• XVI-91 

ti2 to 32 .. : .... -.. ..................... · ............ -............................................ . . I I 

t Accordlng to the line. 

Magistrate who will -insist upon principles that are enliglltcne~l aml 

liberal. · · · 

The Clerk 1·ead as follows: 

Fifty years ago a most distinguished foreigner, who visited this country and 

studied its condition and prospects, wrote: . 

"'Vhen I contemplate the ardor with which the Americans prosecute com- merce, the advantages which aid them, and t-he success of their undertnk:ings, I can not help believing that they will one day become the first maritime power · of the globe. They are bound to rule the seas as the Romans were to conquer the world • * "' The Americans themselves now traasport to their own shores nine-tenths of the European produce which they consume, and they also 

bring three-fourths of the exports of the New World to the European consum- ers. 'The ships of the United States fill the docks of Havre and of Liverpool; 

while the number of English and French vessels which are to be seen in New York is compa.ratiovely small." · 

We tw·n to the actual result reached since these words were written with disappointment. · 

. In !R!O 9A;me.rican vess~ls ~arried ~ ~r cent .. of all !>ur exports and imports; m 1850, 7-:1 u: ID1860, 66nr; m lSi~, 35H; m 18801 17n; m 1882, 15/o-. . The citizen of New Y m·k, looking beyond hts State and all her efforts m the 

interest of commerce and national growth, will naturally inquire concerning 

the causes of this decadence of American shipping. . 'While he sternly demands of his home government the exact limitation of 

taxation by the needs of the State, he will challenge the policy that accumulates 

millions or useless and unnecessary surplus in the national Treasury, which hns 

been not less a tax because it was indirectly but surely added to the cost of the 

people's life. _ · Let us anti~ipate a time when care for the people's needs as they a.ctun.lly 

nrise, and the application of remedies as wrongs appear, shall lead in the con- duct of national affairs:. and Jet us undertake the bu.~iness of legislation with 

the full determination thnt these principles shall guide us in the performance of our duties as guardians of the interests of the State • 

-
14·42 CONGRESSIONA~ RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY 7, 

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. SPRINGER). The time of the gentleman 

from Louisiana haB expired. . Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move ·that the committee rise for the purpose of making· a motion that the House take a recess until to-morrow 

at 11 o'clock, und I stat-e to the House that I am willing that just before 12 o'clock to-morrow the committee shall rise so that the Honse 

may get out of Saturday's sess~on. :My object in moving a reeess is to save an hour for debate.· · The motion was agreed to. 

The committee accordingly· rose; and 1\lr. BLACKBURN haviDg re- sumed the chair as Speaker pro temppre, ?tlr. SPRINGER reported that 

the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union had had 

under consideration the bill (H. R. 8138) making appropriations for theservice of the Post-Office Department for the :fiscal year ending June 30, 

1886, and for other purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. 

ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. 

Mr. NEECE, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported t~t 

the committee had examined and found truly enrolled bills of the fol- • lowing titles; when the Beaker p1·o tempore signed the same: A joint resolution (H. Res. 323) for the printing of certain eulogie§ 

delivered in Congress upon 'the la~ William A. Duncan; . A bill (H. R."81"21) to enable the-commissioners of the ·District of 

Columbia to maintain publi~ order during the ceremoiries of the inauguration of the President, and for other purposes; 

A bill (S. 729) for the protection of children in th-e District of Columbia, and for other pu:rposes; -and - . A bill (S. 1335) to authorize the settlement of the accounts of the late 

John V. B. Bleeker, a paymaster in the Navy. 

.ltl.r. PETERS, from the Committee on El!rolled Bills, reported that 

the oommittee had examined and had found truly enrolled bills of the 

following titles; when the Speaker pro tempore signed the same: 

A bill \H. R. 433) toincrrase the pension of Simpson Harris; 

A bill H. R. 499) granting a pension to Mary A. Knawber; 

A bill H. R. 760) granting an additional pension to Watson S. 

Bentley; · 

A bill (H. R. 1084) granting a pension to Dorathea Bothner; 

A bill (H. R. 1171) granting a pension to Isabel Campbell; 

A bill (H. R. 1256) increasing the pension of Ben Morgan; 

A bill (H. R. 1504) for the relief of Millia. Staples; 

A bill (H. R. 2002) for the relief of Mrs. Jennie E. Johnson; 

A bill (H. R. 2140) for the relief of Hugh Dougherty; 

A bill (H. R. 2348) granting a pension to John D. Rickards; 

A bill (H. R. 2399) granting a pension to Clarissa :McKee; 

A bill (H. R. 2432) forth~ relief of Mrs. Jane Young; 

A billlH. R. 2453) granting a pension to FrankS. 1\la~h; 

A bill H. R. 2692) granting a pension to Sarah Kennedy; 

A bill H. R. 2908\ granting a peJ}sion to James McUanus; 

A bill H. R. 2920 for the relief of John Johnson; 

A bill;· R. 2987 restoring Rebecca Walcott to the pension-roll; A bill H. R. 3527 granting a pension to George A. l\{arshall; · 

A bill . R. 3565l granting a pension to William Eurele; A bill . R. 3612 g~nting a pension to Hayden Reynolds; 

A bill H. R. 3663 granting a pension to John T. Marshall; 

A bill H. R. 3703 granting a pension to James W. Brown; 

A bill ~H. R. 4041 granting a pension to Ze~ca T. Dunlap; A bill H. R. 4059} granting a pension to Isaac Dema-ranville; 

A bill H. R. 4238 granting a pension to Sallie Ingham; . · A bill H. R. 4248 granting a pension to William Harbeson; 

A bill H. )l. 4379l for the relief of Maj. W. W. Freybarger; 

A billlH. R. 4752 granting a pension to William Herring; A bill H. R. 5004 1or the relief of William B. Smith; 

A bill H. R. 5500 for the relief of Benjamin F. Amos; 

A bill ~H. R. 5565 granting a pension to Theodore ·Ahrens; 

A bill H. R. 5630 granting a pension to George W. Rngg; 

A bill H. R. 5632 granting a pension to Sarah J. Bremmer; . A bill H. R. 5670 to aqthorize a retired-list for privates and non- commissioned officers of the United States Army who have served for a period of thirtf years or upward; · . A bill (H. R. 5776) granting a pension to Louis D. Petty; 

A bill (H. R. 5812l granting a pension to Ellen A. Vance; 

A bill {H. R. 5923 gt-anting a pension to Ruth S~tton; 

A bill (H. R. 5926 granting a pension to John :Maloney; 

A bill (H. R. 5960 granting a pension to George Ziefle; 

A bill (H. R. 6084 t6 restore the na.lne of Walter H. Crow to the 

pension-roll; . . 

A billiH. R. 6282) to place R. W. Duncan on the pension-roll; . A bill H. R. 6311) granting a pension to Mrs. Sarah S. Sampson; 

A bill H. R. 6461 ·granting a pension to Nelson Gammons; 

A bill H. R. 6480 granting a pension to Margaret G. Halpine; 

A bill H. R. 6594 granting a pension to Russell F. Dimmick; 

A bill H. R. 6665 for the relief of James Slack; 

A bill (H. R. 6726 granting a pension to. Margaret A. M:1oanire; 

A bill !H. R. 6882 granting a pensio_n to John Otis; 

A b!Jl H. R. 6927 gran~ng a pen~on to Merit M ~kley; 

A. bill H. R. 6934 granting a pension to Ann J. Williams; 

A bill (H.~- 6956) granting a pension to Maria H. Sargent; 

A bill (H. R. 6997) granting a pension to Henry Davis; 

A. bill ~· R. 7046) granting a pension to Alonzo Cornwell; 

A bill H. R. 7141) granting a pension to Daniel W. Adams; 

A bill H. R. 7295) granting a pension to Albert D. Simmons. 

LEAVE TO PRINT .TESTIMONY. 

On motion of Mr." LYMAN, the Committee on lfilit~ry Affairs was given leaYe to have printed for the use of the committee the testimonytaken by it on the subject of armor-penetrating breech-loading cannon. 

-ORDER OF BUSINESS. 

· l\Ir. TOWNSHEND. I move that the House n_ow take a rece until 

11 o'clock to-morrow. 

·ELECTORAL COUNT. 

Mr. HATCH, of" Missouri. I move that when the House adjourns 

to-day it adjourn to meet on Tnesday next. . · Tho BrEAKER pro tempo1'e. The Chair would suggest to gentlemen 

that there is a matter which affects the convenience of members and the 

counting of the electoral vote on the day after to-morrow, in relation to 

which the gentleman from Maryland [Mr. FINDLAY] desires to offer a I"e89lution and the Chair was about to recognize him for that purpose. 

Mr. FINDJ.AY. Mr. Speaker, I offer a resolution which I send to 

the Clerk's desk to be read. . · .The Clerk read as follows: 

Resolved, That on Wednesday, February 11, the whole of the east gallery and 

such portion of the south gallery as lies east of the reporters gallery shall be 

reserved for the use of the families of Senators, 1\:lembers of the House of Rep- resentatives, and Delegates, and their visitors. The Doorkeeper shall strictly en- force this order. The Speaker shall issue to each Senator and member ot the 

House of Representatives two cards of admission, and only persons holding these cards shall be admitted. . 

Ur. FINDLAY. Thisreaolution is drawn in strict accordance with 

the resolution ;:1dopted without dissent on the occasion of the last electoral oount. I hope there will be no objection. 

There being no objection, the resolution was considered adopt-ed.. 

Ur. FINDLAY moved to reconsider the vote by which the resolution 

was adopted; and also moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on 

the table. 

The latter motion was agreed to. MESSAGE· FROJU THE SENATE. 

A message from the Senate, i'J Mr. McCooK, its Secretary, announced 

that the Senate had pa8sed without amendment bills of the House of 

the following titles: 

A bill (H. R. 1013) for the erection of a public building ·at Troy, 

N.Y.; 

A bill (H. R. 1339) increasing the appropriation for the erection of 

the public building at Pittsburgh, Pa. ; . · A bill (H. R. 5674) for the erection of a public building at the city 

of Tyler, in the State of Texas· and 

Joirit resolution (H. Res.327) providing for printing the eulogies delivered in Congress upon the late John H. Evins,.late a Representative 

in the Forty-eighth Congress from the State of South Carolina. 

The message further wm.ounced that the Senate-had passed bills of 

the following titles; in. which the concurrence of the House was re- quested, namely: 

A bill (S. 2441) to amend an act entitled ".An act to provide for the 

erection of a public .building in the city of Peoria., in the State of lllinois," approved May 9, 1882; 

A bill (S. 2542) to amend an act entitled "An act for the erection of a public building at Quincy, m.," approved 1\{ay 9, 1882; and - A bill (S. 2617) to authorize the acquisition of certain parcels of real ·est.ate embraced in ·square No. 406 of.the ci~yofWashington for the en- largement of the Post-Office Department building and for the accom- modation of the city post-office. 

WIDOW OF MAJ. THO)IAS T. THOR:NlJURGH. 

Mr. WOLFORD, by unanimous consent, referred back favorably from 

the Committee on Pensions the bill (H. R. 7655) granting an increase 

of pension to the widow of MaJ. Thomas.T. Thornburgh, late of the 

United States Army; which was referred to the Committee of the Whole 

Honse on the Private Calendar, a'Ild the aecompanying report ordered 

to be printed. · · 

ORDI!;R OF BUSINES .• 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move that the House now take a recess till 

11 o'clock to-morrow morning. I mil state I shall be Willing that just 

befo.(e 1'2 o'clock to-morrow the Committee of the Whole lD.a.y rise and 

the House adjouni. · llr. NEECE. I move !9 amend the motion.for a recess by striking 

out "11 " and inserting "10." . . ~~. DUNHAI\1 (at 5 o clock and 15 minutes p. m.) I move that the 

House adjourn. 

The motion of Mr. DUNHAM was not agreed to. 

Mr. O'NEILL, of Pennsylvania. Isittheintention, iftbis recessbe 

taken tilllO o'clock to-morrow, that the two hours before 12 shall be devoted to a continuation of the general debate, no other busineM to 

·be done? [Cries of "No! " "No!"] · • 
1885 .. ·. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1443 

·The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair is not tnformed of the pur 

pose of the gentleman from illinois, 

:M.r. DUNHAM. I wish to ask the gentleman from illinois whether 

he intends to run this legislative day through to-morrow? 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I do not. I intend fo move just before 12 

o'clock to-morrow that the committee rise and the House adjourn. 

The question being taken on the amendment of 1\lr. NEEcE, there 

were--ayes 70, noes 46. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. I make the point that no quorum Iw;s 

voted. I am·opposed to doing business with~ut a quorum. · Tellers wereordered; and ·Mr. NEECE and Mr. W~TE, of Kentucky, were appointed. 

The House again divided; and the tellers reported-ayes 86, noes 51 . . 

1\Ir. WHITE, of Kentucky. No quorum. 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Kentucl..~ insists 

on the point that no quorum h.as voted. _ Mr. WHITE~" of Kentucky. Pending that, I move the House do now. adjourn. I am opposed to proceeding without a quorum. We 

met this morning at 10 o'clock, and not a dozen members were present. 

Mr. HATCH; of MissOuri. I move that when the House adjourns 

to-da)' it be to meet on T:nesday next; at 12 o'clock. · · The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under the rule the House when it 

adjourns would meet at 12 o'clock on Tuesday. 

Mr. HATCH, of Missouri. Does not the record show· that we are now proceeding in the legislative day of Saturday? _ . The SPEAKER pro tempore. · The gentleman is coiTect; this is the 

legislative day of Saturday. 

Mr. WillTE, ofKentucky. The House would meet on Tuesday at 

any rate, would it not? 

The SPEAKER pro tempore. In the opinion of the Chair, the effect 

would be substantially the same, whether the motion of the gentleman 

from Missouri be agreed to or not. 

The question being taken .on the motion of 1\Ir: HATcH, of .Missouri, · it was agreed ro. . . . The question then recurring on the mo~ion of Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky, that the House adjourn, there were-ayes 45, noes 53. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I now renew my motion that the House take. a rece..."-S nntilll o'clock to-morrow, Tuesday. 

Mr. WHITE, of Kentucky. Does the gentleman from illinois, speaking for his side, say that we sbslll -adjourn to-morrow morning before 

12 o'clock, so that the House may opemte for an hour under the hew 

rnle? • Mr. TOWNSHEND. Speaking for myself, and also I think for my 

side of the Honse, I do so state: 

The SPEAKER pro tetnpore. The question is on the motion of the 

gentleman from Illinois for a recess. 1\Ir. NEECE. What became of my motion? . The SPEAKER pro tempore. It failed for lack of a quorum. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I call for the previous question ou my motion. 

Mr. illSCOCK. I submit to the gentlemen from Illinois whether 

the form of his motion should not be for a recess until Tuesday morn,. 

ing at 11 o'clock. :Mr. TOWNSHEND. That is the form in which I have stated it. 

Mr. HISCOCK. I thought the gentlemen said '·'to-morrow morning." . The previous question was ordered, and under the operation thereof 

the motion of 1\lr. Tow~SHEND for a recess was agreed to; and accordingly (at.5 o'clock and 30 minutes p. m.) the House took a r~ until 

to-morrow (Tuesday) morning st 11 o'clock. 

AFTER RECESS. 

The recess having expired, the House, at 11 o'cl6ck a. m. (Tuesday, 

February 10), resumed its session, Mr. BLACKBURN in the chair rui 

Speaker pro tempore. 

POST·OFFICE APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I move that the House do now resolve itself 

into Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union for the p~ of proceeding with the consideration of the bill '(H. ~. 8138) 

making appropriations for the service of the Post-Office Department for· the fiscal year ending June 30, 1886, and for other purposes. 

The mt>tion wa.s agreed to; and the House accordingly resolveditself 

into Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union, 1\lr. 

SPRINGER in the chair. . 

The CHAIRMAN. Under the order oftheHouseall ~eneraldebate 

will expire in one hour and five minutes, of which time the gentleman· 

from Pennsylvania [1\h·. BINGHAM] is entitled to thirty minutes, and 

the-gentleman from Indiana [Mr. HoL lAN] is entitled to thirty-five 

minutes. . 

l\1r. HOLl\1AN. I believe the gentleman from Pennsylvania wa.S entitled to the floor last evening. If general debate is to be cloSed in one 

hour and five minutes, I hope there will be some un_derstanding as to 

how the time is to be consumed on each side. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has stated that under the order of the 

House the time.for general debate will be exhausted in one hour and 

five minutes. 

Mr. HOLUAN. This side of the House is entitled to thirty-five and 

the other "side to thirty minutes. 

Mr. BINGHAM. This side of the House, in my judgment, is en- titled to one honr. There has been consumed on this side but one hour 

and a half. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. If that is so, th~t side of the House is entitled 

to au hour. · 

The CHAIR~IAN. There was no order made in regard to the di vision of the time between the two sides·of the House. 

Mr. BINGHAM. By no agreement, but by an understanding to 

which there was .no objection. . 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has been unable to determine by the 

line of argument taken whether gentlemen were for or against the bilL 

Some were ii1 L'\vor of some particular parts and opposed to others; and . some suggested propositions of future· amendment. Therefore there can not be said to be sides, so far as has been developed in the general debate which has already taken place. · ~Ir. DINGLEY. The-general debate was limited to five hours, and 

it was understood that two hours and a half would be used by this side 

of the House and tlyo and a half by the other side of the House. Now, 

this side of the House has only had an hour and a half. • Mr. BINGHA.l\I. And that time on the part of this side of the House 

has been used by the two members of tlie Committee on Appropriations, the ~entleman from KansaS [Mr. RYAN] and the gentleman from 

Michigan [Mr. HoRR]. 

1\Ir. KING. l\Ir. Chairman, I do· not think there will he ~ny 9bjeetion to allowing the other side of the House the time desiied. 

The CHAIRI\'IAN.' But the generaldeQate has been limited by order 

of tl1e House. · 

1\Ir. KING. The extension asked for can ·be granted by nnanimo.us consent~ · 

Mr. BINGHA.l\I. I think the Chair is in error as to the time that 

has been consumed. 

Mr. KING. I ask tmaliimous consent to extend the time. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. I suggest -that the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. BINGHAM] p~oceed, and in the mean time we ~n ammge 

this matter. 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has stated ·there was an hour and-five . minutes left of time for genera14ebate on this bill. The Chair bas not 

undertaken to allot the time between the two sides of the House, but 

has followed the usual caurse of taking the names handed to him. 

Mr. BINGlJA~I. If the Chair will refer to the RECORD it will be 

found that the debate did not commence nntil2 o'clock, and the House 

adjourned at· five Vlinntes after 5. · . :t'he CHAIRMAN. The general debate commenced at five minutes 

after 1 o'c1ock. The Chail' is positive about that, as he noted it himseU 

at the time. 

Mr. HOLMAN. I-n~served thirty-five minutes of my holll' and am 

willing to .yield a portion of that time to the other side, .but I 'wish 

twenty-five minutt>s myself. 

.Mr. DINGLEY. How long did the gentleman from Kansas occupy? 

The CHAIRM:A....~. Half an hour, and he yielded thirty.minutes to 

thegentlemanfrot;n Pennsylrnnia [1\Ir. BINGHAM], which would make, 

when occupied, two hours and twenty minutes for that side of the Honse. · Mr. DINGLEY. The gentleman from 1\Iicbigan'[Mr. HoRR] took an hour in his own time, when Mr. RYAN then obtained the floor and 

yielded .to him twenty minul.es. 

1\Ir. BINGHAM. That is· the position exactly. 

1\Ir. TOWNSHEND. Yes; that is the fact. 

l\1r. YORK. Wha~ time remains of the five hours for general debate? 

The CHAIRMAN. One hour and five minutes. 

Mr. BINGHAM. The Chair announced when 1\Ir. RYAN left the 

floor be bad thirty minutes of his time left, which ·he yielded to me, so the RECORD states. . 

The CHAIRl\IAN. · The Chair stated that the gentleman from Kan-

·sas had thirty minutes left, which he. yielded to the gentleman from 

Pennsylvv.nia [Mr. BINGHAM]. Now, the order of the Honse- must be 

obeyed 80 far as the time for closing general debate is concerned, and 

of that tune only one hour and five minutes remain. 

Mr. TOWNSHEND. ·now much on either side? 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair is unable to decide whether gentlemen 

who occupied the flooJ; wm·e for or against the bill, but has recognized 

them in the order in which their names were given to J:rim. · Mr. KING. What is the wish of the gentleman from Pennsylvania? 

Mr. BINGHAM. So fat as I am personally concerned I have ample 

time: but my friend from Maine [1\Ir. DINqLEY] desires an opportunity to discuss one of the paragraphs of the bill, ·tor which purpose hewill require ·at least half an hour. . · l\1r. KING. I hope that time will be granted. · 

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania will. proceed 

for thirty minutes, after w~ich time gentlemen can determine how th6 

other thirty-five minutes will be divideJl. . M:r. BINGHAM addressed the House. [See Appendix.] 

The CHAIRMAN. TheCbairdesirestocorrectastatement whichhe 

made before the re.n:uuksof the gentleman from-Pennsylvania [?l:t:r.· BING-

.IIAni] began as to the time remaining for general debate. The Chair 
1444 CONGRESSIONAL _RECORD-HOUSE. FEBRUARY ·7, 

~$ then informed by the Clerk that but one hour and five minutes re- mained. The Chair .has since examined. the record of the time occupied 

yesterday by each gentleman, and finds that up to this time gentlemen on the minority side of the House have occupied two hours, and gentle- men on the other side two hours and thirteen minutes, leaving forty- seven minutes, of which the Chair will award thirty minutes to the 

gentleman from Maine [Mr. DINGLEY]. ~Ir. TOWNSHEND. How much will be left for our side of the 

House? 

'The CHAIRMAN. Seventeen minutes. Mr. TOWNSHEND. I had reserved twelve minutes from the hom· 

allotted to me. I wish to say I will yield my time to my friend from 

Indiana [?!Ir. HOUIAN] if he desires it. · Mr. DINGLEY. :Mr. Chairman; the gent leman froin Louisiana yesterday called the attention of the Committee of the Whole to the importance ~early action by Congress on the-subject of the foreign mail 

service of the United St-ates. I desire to em12hasize the conclusions of 

that gentleman1 and to add such considerations as my time will permit. 

The twenty-thii'd section of the shipping act, approved June 26, 1884, 

repealed all laws and parts of laws tP,at compel vessels of the Uni~d 

States to car.ry our mails tQ and . from foreign countries for the small 

compensation allowed by law, the re,Peal to take effect on the 1st of 

April next. This repeal was just and proper, for there was obvious 

injustice in requiring the owners of American vessels in the ·foreign 

trade to carry our mails arbitrarily for a grossly inadequate compensation, while not only the owners of foreign vessels entering and clearing 

from our ports, but also the owners of American coastwise vessels arid 

land conveyances, were left free to make such arrangements with the 

Government for tnt:nsporting the United ·St-ates mails as were mutually 

satisfactory. So far as mail communication between the Upited States and the 

countries of Europe are concerned, the repeal of these compulsory provisions of our hws can cause no difficulty. The immeDBe carrying 

trade betw.een this country and Europe and the necessity imposed on the nations of E.urope of maintaining frequent and rapid postal and 

commercial communication with the United States have built up a large number of lines of steamships. These lines, to be sure, are all 

foreign since the withdrawal of .the Philadelphia American line a few 

months ago; yet all are willing to make contracts to carry our mails 

for the postal-union rate, for the reason that the immeDBe amount of 

mail matter carried between this country and Europe makes this rate 

yield a considerable compensation, and for the further .e.ason that ns these lines of steamers are maintained by other business and by the mail 

subsidies of the nations of Europe, whatever additional piJ.y can be obtained of our Government is so much gain. · But so fur as direct mail connection with the countries of Central and 

South America, 1\Iexico, the Sattdwich Islands, the Australian colonies, 

China, Japan, and some of the West India. islands, is· concerned, the 

repeal of. the compulsory provisions of om: law, unless some provision 

shall be made for adequate compensation, is in danger of depriving otir 

people of the facilities of·postal communication n_ow offered by the 

lines of American steamers which make regular trips between t.he United 

Sta.tes and these ~ountries. I do not by any means-desire to intimate 

that the owners of these American steamship lines will take any improper advantage of the fact that after the_lst of .April next they will 

have the same right to control their own property that every other citi- zen of this country possesses. But no reasonable mim will expect them, 

for any considerable time after that date, to continue to carry the mails 

of the United States mg,ny'thousand miles for so paltry a . compensation 

that the amount received from our Government tor this service by one of our largest steamship companies has barely paid for the expense to 

which the company has been subjected in delivering the mails at the 

post-offices at the termini of the routes. 

Indeed,. there has been so marked a discrimination against American · vessels in the foreign trade in our postal legislation and administration 

that a s~mple s~tement of its-nature is a convincing argument against 

its·continuance. Under the compu1sorylawreqniringthe master of an American vessel in the foreign trade to receive, convey, and deliver all 

mails tendered him by the Post-Office De.Partment, for which he shall 

be entitled to· receive 2 cents per letter, our Government in a recent 

year paid five important American steamship lines, which traveled 

1,181,309 miles, and maintained regular postal and commercial commu- nication with Australia, China,Japan, Brazil, Cuba, and Mexico, $31,405 

for carrying the mails of the United States, or the munificent compensation of 2l cents per mile ! · · 

In the same year, under the laws applicable to coastwise vessels and 

inland conveyances, that give contracts for carrying the mails to the 

lowest voluntary bidder for such transportation, the Government paJ.d 

:five small lines of coastwise-steamers, which traveled only 247,960 miles 

and connected several minor domestic ports, the sum of $142,706, o1· 57! 

cents per mile. 

As an illustration of the discrimination against American vessels in 

tbe foreign trade, I ask the committee to observe that while the small coastwise steamers which cariy the United States mail between Galvest.on and Brashear,· received $50,000 per annum for this service, a distance of a few hundred miles, the Pacific Mail Steamship Company 

received only $14,849 for conveying the United States mails between 

San Francisco and Australia, China and Japan, a distance of 12,000 · miles. . I am sure, Mr. Chah·man, that no fair-minded mari will care to haYe 

this unjust discrimination continued. I desire to bring this state of 

things to the attention of Congress, in order that there may be legislation before the adj onrnment authorizing the Postmaster-General to give 

such compensation for carrying our mails to the countries of this con- tinent and the countries of the East which lie nearer to us than to Europe as will not only maintain the present postal and commercial com- munication afforded by American lines, but will also encourage the 

establishment of new lines directly connecting the United States with 

other countries of South America with which we have no steam com- munication except by way of England. The President, in his amtual 

message, and the Postmaster-General, in his recent report, both call the 

attention of Congress to the necessity of legislation on that· point. :Mr. Chairman, to my mind the provisi<>ns incorporated into the postal 

appropriation bill bytheAppropriationsCommittee, ifenactedintolaw, 

will tend to accomplish this result; and accomplish it, too, simply by 

the extension to foreigt! mail service by American steamers of the same system of contract to the lowest bidder which has worked so success- fully on the land in the case of inland conveyances, and so accept.1.bly on ocean routes where the mail is conveyed by coastwise steamers between our own ports. · The provision recommended by the Committee on Appropriations, ~nd in substance unanimously indorsed by the Select Committee on Shippmg Interests, although the latter recommend a 'larger appropriation, simply authorizes the Postmaster-General to invite proposals for 

carrying the mails in American steamers between the United States 

and foreign ports to which he may regard it desirable to extend postal 

and commercial communication, and, if he shall deem it proper, to enter 

into contract for 11ot exceeding four years, with the lowest responsible bidder, for a sum not to exceed 50 cents per nautical mile traveled 

each way, the entire amount to be expended for this purpose not to ex- ceed the profit which the Government makes on its foreign mail serv- ice, and not more than $600,000 for the next fiscal year. It will be observed that not a dollar of the revenue obtained by ordinary taxation 

is to be approptiated to maintain and extend postal and commercial 

communication with foreign cotmtries. . The rule which has always 

prevailed in our domestic postfl.l service has been to mak~ expenditure 

an<\ revenue as nearly equal as possible. The plan of the committee 

extends the same principle to our foreign mail service, and pr-oposes to use the excess of receipts from this source above expenditure, deducting even the cost of inland service, in improving and extending postal 

and commercial communication with foreign countries. Even if we should appropriate the gross revenue of the foreign mail service, estimated. at 1,700,000, in maintaining and extending postal and com- mercial communication with foreign countries by means of American 

steamers, as .recommended by the Shipping Committee, we should fall 

far short·of what England aoes in the same direction, for in the last 

fiscal year she paid British steamship lines over a million and a- half 

of dollars more than the gt:oss amount received for foreign postage, and 

but a few years ago her expenditure for this object in excess of receipts 

exceeded three millions annually. 

From the last annual report of the British postmaster-general re- ceived at our Post-Office Department I take the following statement 

of the amounts paid by Great Britain to steamship lines, almost en- tirely BritiSh, for foreign mail service, and the amounts paid each line 

by th& Government in excess of the receipts for. postage: 

St~ hip lines. · Payments. 

Australia .................................... -........................... (*) 

Exces!! of payments over postal re- ceipts. 

Brazil .................................................. :.................... (soot) ,825 

Cape of Good Hope ............................. :.................. . ............... ........ . 

~~ffu~i!: :::: ~~~: ·:.; ·::. :: ::::: :: ::::: :: :::::::::::: ~ 1, 7:::1· =:~ East coast of .Africa................................................ 31,120 · 29, 000 'Vest coast of Africa................................................ 41, 990 10, 000 Dover and Ostend...... ...... ...... .................. ... ...... ...... 80, 585 ....................... . Malta. and Messina.................................................. 7, 500 ............... ........ . United States...... ..................................................... 462,615 : 260,000 

Bermuda and Jamaica. ................... ~......... ............ · 87 500 82,500 

Panaina and Valparaiso ........................ ....... " ......... 13;285 ....................... . 'Vest Indies and Mexico......................................... 420, ll5 265,000 

--------- -~------- Tota.l. .................... ............... : ............. :. ........... 3, 039,830 1, 707,000 

. • Paid by Australia. t Paid by colony. 

Previous to 1875 the British Government paid annually from $4,000,-

000 to$5,000,000 to steamshipsforocean mail service; anamountfrom 

two to three millions in excess of her revenue from foreign postage. Nearly all of this sum was paid British steamship lines. Franc;e pays 

her mail steamships overfotlrand a half millions annually;. Italy nearly 

two millions, Austria one million, Spain one million, and even little Hoi~ 

land over f3QO,OOO. 
1885.- CONGRESSIONAL-RECORD-HOUSE. 1445 < 

Compare with these :figures the sums paid to steamships by the United 

States Y>r foreign mail service in the last fiscal year, as follows: 

Service. American. Foreign. 

of a. large share-of the trade of the non-manufacturing countries of this 

continent, which purchase of us only sixty-four millions, but of France 

seventy-seven millions, and of G~t Britain one hundred and twelve 

millions. The present Congress has regarded a successful solution of 

this problem so .important that it has authorized a ·commission to visit; 

1\fexico and the coup. tries of Central and South America. and report such 

Transatlantic.............................................. $2, 833 20 $268, U6 34. $270,949 « measures as seem to these gentlemen best calcruated to secure this end. 

§~~~-!'~d.~~;;i~8:i".A.;;;~~i~- ·~~d" -\v~~t·i ::· 16' 

833 97 2

' 

241 81 19

' 

125 78 The commission have not yet completed their labors, but they have 

dies, &c ... ......................... ..................... : .. 30, 259 33 6, 873 36 37,132 69 alreadyobtainedsufficientlighttomakepublicsomeoftheirconclusions. 

I I They represent in the strongest terms possible that one of the first things 49•

976 50 . 277•

231 41 327•

207 91 to be done is to establish direct and regular steamship connection for - - -------------'---- ---=------c____ postal and commercial purposes with such countries in South America. 

T:qe aggregate amount paid to steamships for foreign mail service in as we wish to reach with the products of our industries. 

1884 by the United States was 327,207, of which only $49,976 was At present we have no regular direct steamship connection withmost 

paid to American steamers, while Great Britain paid for the same object of the countries of South America. Our mails and our goods must 

an aggregate of $3,039,830, of which ~bout $2,900,000 went to British largely go by the roundabout way of England. In these days when 

steamships . . Until within a year and a half the little colonies of Aus- purchasers demand conveniences forswiftcommunication .and quickdetralia.· and New Zealand and New South Wales paid the Pacific 1\fail .livery it is impossible for llif to think of largely reaching the marketa 

Steamship CompanY. $400,000 ahnually to maintain postal and commer- of South America unless we have steamship lines regularly running becial communication with the United States, and since November, 1883, tween our ports and the leailing ports of that_ country by which mails 

the amount paid has been $250,000, of-which New Zealand has con- and goods may be transported promptly and regularly. · tributed $156,000 and New South Wales $94,000, while the United The growth of our tradewithAustralia, Mexico, and other countl~es 

States paid for the same serVice only $11,000. Finding that the United with which we have established regular steamship colin.ectio:a affords 

States was disinclined to pay its proportion of the cost of maintaining evidence of the commercial importance of regular American st~mship 

this service New South Wales withdrew last December, and unless this lines. Our exports to l\Iexico have increased from $3,716,599 in 1866 

country.comes t{) the aid New Zealand will soop. follow, and .steamship to $14,370,992 in 1883; to Central America, from $121,534 to nealiy 

communication witb'Australia will be discontinued. two millions; and to Australia, from $3,419,973 in 1870 to $9,638,997 

Observe the great difference in compensation a warded for carrying the in 1883 .. mails by Great Britain to her steamers and that paid by the United It is idle, ·however, to expect that the existing American steamship 

States toour steamersforsimilarservice. Great Britain paid her Brazil lines to Australia, China, Japan, and Brazil can be long sustained, or 

line $60,825; the United States paid our Brazil line $5,249. Great new lines to South American ports be established, unless the United 

Britainpaidherlinestothe Westindiesand"Mex.ico$420,115; the United States shall feel sufficiently interested to extend liberal mail ·pay for 

States paid our Cuban and Mexican lines $9,800; Great Britain paid postal service. No nation of Europe has ever originally established 

her China and East India lines $1,793,000; the United States paid our steamship lines to connect with foreign countries without liberal mail 

China, Japan, and Australian line $14,849. pay from ihe government. It bas been frequently assertell that this 

The simpl~ statement of these facts, when it is borne in mirftl that with has not been the case with Great Britain. The official records, howtwo or three· exceptions· the figures of the pa~t year illustrate the indif- ever, prove that England was the pioneer of this policy on the most libfefence of our Government for nearly thirty years to the extension of · eml scale. To settle this point beyond question, however, I addressed 

postal and commercial communication with foreign countries by means a note of inquiry to Capt. Bedford Pim; recognized everywhere as an 6f American steamship lines, goes far to explain our humiliating position English aut~ority on all matters relating to the British marine, and I on the ocean and ought to arouse the attention of Congress to the· im- received from him a prompt reply on this point, in which he says: 

portance of preliminary legislation looking to the. adoption of that pol- It has been the policy of the British Government to establish or ra.therenc~ur­ icy of encouraging t~e establishment· of steamship lines by liberal mail age the establishment of British steamship lines by the anntial payment of a pay which was so successfully inaugurated by Great Britain more than postal subsiay, and this with the most gratifying result as regards the expallSion tbrty years ago, and which nearly every European commercial nation ofBritish commerce. I know of no instance of a British postalline of steamers 

has within a recent period begun to imitate. . o~iginall y established without a_subsidy for carrying the mails. . 

I am aware, Mr. Chairman, itissometimesclaimed thatGreatBritain Now that Great Brita:in has obtained possession of most ofthe imhas been indifferent to the national character of the -,zessels which car- portant lines of steamship communication with foreign countries she 

ried her mails, and that her sole object has been to secure the transmis- has no need of dispensing her largesses with so liberal a h~md as for~ 

sion of postal matter with celerity, regularity, and at the lowest cost, merly; but the mail compensation she still gives so manyofher steamregardless of the flag which floated over it and the nationality of the ship lines shows that she continues t{) jealously. guard this important 

ports from which the steamers took their departure. N-o one can trace agency in the development of her foreign trade. 

the history of the development of England's postal and commercial com- !tir. Chairman, there remains one other consideration which it is immunieations withoutTeaching the conclusion that the two have marched portant that Congress should not overlook. · The plan to which I am abreast.- ealling attention provides that in case of war all American steamers, onWherever there seemed to be an opening for British trade she has der contract to carry the mails of the United States, shall be subject to 

hastened toencouragetheestablishmentofsteamship communication by purcl1ase or cha:rter by this Government a.t reasonable rates. This is 

tendering liberal payfor carrying her mails. She has notbeencontent substantially the condition ·on which Great Britain has for years en- to send her mails by any foreign steamship line when it has been pos- tered into contract with her mail steamships. In this way she has con- sible to 8ecure equal dispatch by a British line. When the Collins line stantly had at hand a large fleet·of swift steamships at comparatively 

of American steamers seemed about to distance the British Cunard slight expense to her treasury, which she could take possCiSion of at a line, England did not say that it made no difference to her whether her day's notice in case of war, and use as transports for troops and supmails were carried by British or American steamers, but she promptly plies, and even- as light-armed swift cruisers to sweep an enemy's com- came forward to the aid of the Cunard line by increasing her mail pay. merce from the sea. She could have dispatched her mails to Brazil by the French line of • By encouraging the establishment and maintena.n"ce of steamship· steamers at. a nominal cost, but instead of doing this she came forward lines employing large and swift vessels, through liberal compensation 

to aid in the maintenance of a. direct British line, not simply by liberal for carrying our mails to foreign countries, it is in our power, at a. com- maJl pay, but by a guarantee of 8 per cent. interest to encourage mer- paratively small· expense, to build up a fleet of steamships and large 

chants to maintain a British line to Brazil. She contillued this policy private ship-ya:rds, which will be of inest-imable value in case of war. until the Blitish steamship lines had possession of the routes of foreign The chief objections to the plan proposed by the committee, which 

trade and there was no necessity of more than ordinary compensa· have been suggested, are that it gives the Postmaster-General too much 

tion. power; tha.t it involves too great expense; t~t it will inure largely to 

The policy of Great Britain has been to maintain direct postal and the bene.fi.tofthe few existing American lines which will have no com- commercial cOmmunication by means of Bri~h steamships with all petition, and that it will not measurably add new lines running to other 

foreign countries which offered opportunities for trade. As strikingly countries. 

stated by Capt. Bedford.Pim, a well-known English statesman, in a These objections are entitled to careful consideration. If no new recent address in Washington, the British hold that ".trade will follow lines of American steamships shall be·added to our present fleet, no ex- the flag. ' ' Trade follows the flag which opens and maintains direct pense would be incurred in that ~evtion. If new lines to some of the 

postal and commercial communication. It is in part by means of Brit- more important ports of South America can be secured even at the max- ish steamship lines connecting directly and regularly foreign countries imum compensation provided, I think there .would be little difference 

with the ports of Great Britain, and affording prompt and regular means of opinion as to the wisdom of the appropriation. 

of correspondence and transportation of merchandise, that Great Blitain The United States paid. to foreign s~eamers in the last nscal year 

has been ·able to seize and hold to such an extent the markets of the about $268,000 for carrying her mails to. Europe, and will pay nearly 

world. $300,000 in the next year. I am informed by gentlemen who have 

One of the important problems which is commanding the attention practical acquaintance with the subject that if this sum was annually 

of the American people at the present time is bow to obtain. possession placed at the disposal of the Postmaster-General with ·authority to make 
' 

1446 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. ]'EBRU.ARY 7, 

a contract for four years for carrying our European mails, American 

capitalists wonld. without doubt enter into a contract with our Government to establish a semi-weekly line or lines of American mail steamships, equal -to any in the world, between New York and Liverpool, on the assurance that they wonld receive the same sum annually for car- rying our mails to Europe that is now paid in the aggregate to foreign sreamers. And this slim, it is worthy of note, is almost exactly the 

maximum of 50 cents per nautical mile, estimating the mileage made 

by a semi-weekly line of steamships between New York and LiverpooL 

Would it not be far wiser to use the $268,000, or the $300,000, as the 

amoimt paid to foreign transatlarttic steamers will unquestionablybe 

the next fiscal year, in establishing an American line of swift first-class 

mail-steamers, that would bear the American flag and be availabfe for 

Gove:rnmentuses inca.se of war, than to pay it to maintain foreign steamships, which would be turned against us in case of trouble between the 

United States and the nations under whose flag these steamers sail? 

Such a change in our policy would add very little to our expenditure, so far as our transatlantic mails are concerned, on the basis of semiweekly mails between Europe and the United States. Certainly, we could well afford to increase our expenditure for foreign mail service 

$550,000 annually, as contemplated by the provision recommended by 

the• Committee on Appropriations, or even 1, 700,000, as recommended 

by the shipping committee, if thereby we could secure and maintnin 

prompt and frequent postal and commercial communication by Ameri- can steamships with the countries of South America, the Australian 

colonies, and China and Japan--countries whose trade we are seeking to 

draw to ourselves in larger measure. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, the objection which has most wuight is that 

under· the plan proposed existing American s~'\mship lines, running 

to the West India islands, Mexico) Central.A.merica, a few countries of 

South America, the Australian colonies, and China and Japan, might 

all be able to secure the maximum amount provided, without regard to 

the value of their service, and thus appropriate to themselves the most 

ofthe sum placed at the disposal of the Postmaster-General without 

adding -anything to the facilities we now haY e. This objection assull.leS 

that the Postmaster-General would administer this measure ifitshould 

be enacted into law, without due regard to the public interests. Why 

should there be fear of this in· his administration of the laws relating 

to foreign mail service, with a limitation of the maximum expenditure 

by-law, wh~ we have no hesitation in intrusting to him the expenditure of m3D.Y millions in the domestic )Dail service by land and ~ea 

without any limit to the sum that he may pay for trnnsportation_of the 

mails? Why this extrao1·dinary distrust the m!)ment that any measures 

are proposed to promote postal and commercial facilities with foreign 

countries and encourage the American merchant marine? 

It is to be observed that there is nothing in the measure proposed 

which requires the Postmasrer-General to pay a single dollar to an American line of steamers .. He may invite proposals for. carrying the 

llllltils by American steamers to any <;ountry that he regards tt proper 

to do so,. and when he has received bids for this service he may r~ject 

any and all proposals. which in his judgment it is not for the public 

interest to accept. If he can not ohtain a proposal satisfuctory to him 

he may send our mails by foreign competing steamers or by way of 

England. The absoJute discretion vested in him in the fo~ign , as in 

the d01Uestic mail service, limited, however, in the ease of the foreign 

service to the maximum sum of 50 cents per mile and the aggregate of 

'600,000, wonld make the Postmaster-Gen~ral master of the situation 

in the case of the- adoption of the measure proposed. 

Moreover, with the exception of the lines from the Sandwich Islands 

to Australia, San Francisco to Panama., and San Francisco to British 

Columbia, there is already competition by foreign steamship lines, which 

would be ready to carry onr mails if American lines asked too much, or by American companies owning foreign steamers which would be 

ready to dispose of their foreign steamers and purchase American -ves- sels in order to Secure the contract for our mail service. • 

The following list of ocean mail-routes on which American vessels now carry the mails of the United States to foreign countries, with the 

number of miles tmveled by steamships on each route and the amount 

paid each line by this Govetnlll.flnt for mail service in the last fiscal 

year, omitting.the Philadelphia line now withdrawn; will be ofintei·-

est in this connection: 

Lines of service. 

*.Pacific Mail Steamship Comp:~.ny, San Francisco toAustralia, &c ...................................................................... . PacificMailSteamshipCompany,SanFranciscotoCbina 

and Japan ............................ : ....................................... . J>acific Mail Steamship Company, N.ew York to Aspin-' 

wall .................................. : ................................ : ......... . *Pacific Mail Steamship Company, San Francisco to Pan- ama ................................ ............. , ................................. . *San Francisco to British Columbia ................................ . New York, Havana and Mexica.n Mail Line, New York to Cubs, Porto Rico, and Mexico ................................. . New Orlenns to Vera Cruz .. : ........................................... . New York and Brazil Line ............................................. . 

1.\Iile Amount 

traveled. mail pay. 

156,000 

165,6..?() 

144,072 

158,68S 

83, 000 

200,000 

16,000 

162,060 

$11,184 

3,665 

6,841 

1,597 387 

8,101 

lr.3 

5,2!9 

List of t>eea14 fiULiZ routes-Continued. 

Line of s~rvice. Mile Amount 

tra•eled. mail paid. 

---------~----------1------ ----

New York and "Cuba. 1\-Iail Line; Cuba, Pot· to Rico, and 

Bahamas .............. : ............................ ....................... ! .... . 

Morgan Line, New Orleans to Cuba and Mexico, Key 

West to Cuba, Galveston to Mexico ............................. . New Orleans to Honuw·as and Guatemala. .................... . New York to Hayti ....... ........ _ ........................................ . New York to Venezuela. ................................................. . 

Baltimore to Bermuda.. ...... ·-·· .. ···············-· ...... _ ............ . Boston, Halifax and Prine~ Edward ...... ......................... . Boston to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia ................ .-................. . San Francisco to 1\Iexico ......................................... , ....... . Oceanic St~amship Company. San Francisco to Hawaii .. Steamship Mendoza, New York to Argentine Republic .. 

101,000 . 

85 000 

61:200 

35 496 79:716 

4,200 

81,600 

70,600 

39,840 

83,200 

26,000 

$2,957 

9M 

512 

483 1,().16 

u, 

144 

141 

278 

1,852 87 

The above lines, with a few irregular trips by other steamem carrying the m::!iil, apparently m:tke an aggregate mileage of about 1,750,000 

miles. But the service from San Francisco to Hawaii, New York to 

the West India islands and 1\Iexico, and several other points, is duplicatep.; several lines run to countries with which we are connected by 

raliroads; and onalltheroutesbutthethreeindicated byastar, thus(*), 

there are competing lines. On one of these three, that from San Francisco to the Australian colonies, there is competition to Hawaii, which 

leave routes co•ering only about 300,000 miles on which there is but one steamship line. Although the miles traveled 'by the steamers of 

the four lines of the Pacific Mail Steamship Company, which carried 

the United Stat-es mails in the last fiscal year, were 624,380, yet there are competing lines,. either foreign or American, over all portions of 

their routes except 231,488 miles; and mail matter may be dispatched even to these points by longer indirect foreign routes. · 

It will be een, therefore, that there is no more reason to suppose that 

any um which may be appropriated on the plan proposed for foreign 

mail service will not be wisely and economically expended by the Postmaster-General than there is that the much larger appropriations for. 

domestic mail ervice puts in the hands of th&t officer will be misappropriated. ., 

1\!r. Chairman, I have dwelt on the objections urged against any pracLicable plan of increasing our postal and commercial communication 

with foreign countries and of encouraging the establishment of Ameri- can steamship lines because many gentlemen have given undue importance to them:. I am sure that when gentlemen rise to the national 

importance of these ends they must feel that Congress will do itself 

and the country great injury if it allows objectio~ which can have no force except on the supposition that the Postmaster-General of' the administration soon "to ba inaugurated will be unfit for the position, to 

stand in the way. of an e.'\rnest effort to secure . postal and commercial 

communication with foreign countries by means of .American steamships. 

• .A. nation of 56,000,000 of people, occupying so high a place among 

the powers of Christendom, and proudly boasting of t1> future of which no other country ever dreamed, o.ught not to be content until her mails are canied to other nations by steamships floating her own fiag. Our 

commeroiaJ. interests demand this, for in the multiplied presence of 

American vessels in the world's waters there would come to us a com- mercial as well as moral ad vantage. The steamship is the great agency 

of forei.gn trade; and the commercial history of the world .shows that 

trade follows the flag which floats at the mastheadofthe ocean carrier. 

What the devices of advertising are to the merchant who solicits trade our merchant fleets upon the seas are to this country. · Patriotism unites in the appeal for the extension of American steamship lines. · .A. nation is known and felt a};lroad more by the flag floating over her shipping in foreign ports and on the great ocean highways th;m 

by any other agencies. If we would have our Republic more highly 

honored and respected abroad, we can secure this result in no other way so successfully and cheaply as by m.ultiplying American ocean tonnage 

and encouraging the establishment of American steamship lines to the 

leading ports of the world. The same policy· of liberal mail pay which 

haslmilt up British ste..'tmship lines on all the greatl'outes of o~ com- merce, and nothing else, will, if persistently followed, secure to the 

United States -similar results. 

The instinct of self-preservation admonishes us to multiply swift mer- chant steamships, which in time of war may be laid hold of by our Government as transports and commerce-destroyers, and ship-yards which 

in time of need may be resorted to for the prompt construction of war 

vessels and engines of war. The nation whose bondaries SJ;ld chief 

commercial cities are touched by the sea is almost defenseless unless it can cope with its enemies on the ocean. In modern times the s~t of 

power of every nation is on <the rocking waves as well as on the solid 

land. ~r. TOWNSHEND. The gentleman from lt!aine yields to me tb 

the purpose of moving the committee rise. 

Mr. DINGLEY. How much time have I left? 

The CH.A.IRU.A.N. Thirteen minutes. 

The motion was agreed to. 
1885. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 1447 

The committee aceordingly rose; and Mr. BLACKBUR~ having resumed the chair as Speaker pro tenipOre, Mr. SPRINGER reported that 

the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union had had 

under consideration the bill (H. R.' 8138) making appropriatiollS for the 

service of the Post-Office Department for the fiscal year ending J nne 30, 

1886, and for other purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. 

ceive the attention which its importance demands; also of S. D. Bentley,.W. F: Cogswell, Edward Harris, citizens of the United States-to 

_Mr. TOWNSHEND moved that the House adjourn. 

The motio..n was agr~ to; and ~he Honse accordingly (at 11 o'clock 

and 55 minutes a. m., February 10_, 1885) adjourned. . -

the Committee on the Judiciary. . By Mr. HOBLITZELL: Peti~on of Ferdinand Mullan, admiriistrator 

of Charles N. Mullan, deceased, .late an employe of the Forty-fourth 

Congress, for an allowance for necessary funeral expenses of said deceased-t{) the Committee on ..A.~nnts. 

By Mr. HOPKINS: Memorial of Chamber of Commerce of Pittsburgh, Pa., upon the subject of railroad discrimination and poolingto the Committee on Commerce. . By Mr. HOWEY: Petition of J. L. Robe.rt.S and otl,.ers, of BernardsPETITIONS, ETC. ~ ville, Somenset County, New Jersey, praying for the suppression of 

The following petitions and papers were laid on the Clerk's desk, Mormonism-to the Committee on the Judiciary. · under the rule. and referred as follows: By Mr. JOHNSON: Petition of Rev. A. J. Fennel and others, of · By Jl.lr. BALLENTINE: Petition of ::Mary C. Starnes, asking a refer- Glens J!'alls, N. Y., for legislation on the Mormon question-to the ence of her case to the Court of Claims-to the Committee on War same committee. · Claims. By Mr. B. W. JONES: Memori3}1 of newspa-per publishers of . the 

By Mr. BAYNE: Memorial of R. S. Waring and others, of Pitts- West and Northwest, asking reduction of newspaper postage-to the 

buTgh, Pa., in favor of India~ schools-to the Committee on Indian Committee on the Post-Office and Post-Roads. 

Affairs. Also, memorial of the Legislature of the State of Wisoonsin, ~king 

Also, memorial of the First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Seventh the United States to take control of Sturgeon Bay and Lake Michigan 

United Presbyterian churches of Allegheny, Pa., pr~;tying that the edu- . Ship Canal-to ihe Committee on Rivers and Harbors. · c..<ttional facilities recommended by the Secretary of the Interior be in- Also, resolution ~f State Grange of Wisconsin, asking legislation to 

corpora ted into law by Congress-to t.he same committee. the end that manufacturers and agents shall alone be liable for infringeAlso, memorial of the facility of Western University of Pennsyl- ment ofpatents_:_to the Com,mittee on the Judiciary. 

vnnia and the professors of various colleges, praying that the educa- By Mr. KEAN: Petition of citizens of Jamesburg, N. J., urging 

tional facilities recommended by the Secretary of-the Interior may be action by Congress upon bills for the suppression of M:ormonism-to 

inoorporated:into law by Congress-to the same committee. · the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Also, memorial of Samuel Barnes, D. D., p3stor of Fourth Baptist -Also, petition of citizens of Springfield, N. J., urging action by Conchurch of Pittsburgh, representing 496 members, praying that the edu- gress upon billS for the suppression of Mormonism-to the same oom- cntional facilities recommended by the Secretary of the Interior ·may mtiee. · . be incorporated into law by Congress-to the same committee. By 1\-Ir. LIBBEY: Petition of the. Soldiers' and Citizens' National 

By Mr. -BEACH: Petition of citizens-of Port Jervis, N. Y., in refeF- League, for pensioning all honorably discharged soldiers and sailol'S_ of ence to the Mormon question-to the Colllmittee on the Judiciary. the late war-to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

By Mr. BRENTS: Petition of Custer Post, No. 6, Department of By Mr. 1\IcCOR!\IICK~ Petition of Rev. H. Calhouse and .108 citiW ashington Territory, for publication in Official Records of ~be ,Var of zeus of Lawrence County, Ohio, against MOrmonism-to the Committee 

the Rebellion of photographic illustrations-to the Committee on Mili- on the Judiciary. 

tary Affairs. B"y Mr. l\fA.G£NNIS: Petition of citizens of Montana, for a pension 

By Mr. T. M. BROWNE: Petition of 73 citizens of R11shville, Ind., of $8 per month for all discharged soldiers-to the Committee on Inllraying the pas..qa,ge of a bill for the abolition of polygamy, &c.-to the valid-Pensions. 

Committee on-t'be Judiciary. By 1\Ir. MATSOX: Petition: of Professor W. T. Axtell and 45others, 

By Jl.fr. CANNON: Papers to accompany bill for the relief of Samuel of Monroe County, and of J. A. Woodburn and 20 others, citizens of 

and David Wilson-to the Committee on Ways and M~ns. · · · Monroe County, Indial}a, for legislation to remedy the evils of MorBy:Mr. CLEMENTS: Petition of Hester A. Weitinger, widow of John monism-to the Committee on the Judiciary. ·- Weitinger, deceased; of John· A. Masteller and Elizabeth A. Moody, By Mr. MULDROW: PetitionofDanielPeel, of Tishomingo County, adminisb-a~rs of Andrew Masteller, deceased; and of David Murdoch, Mississippi, asking for reference of his claim to the Court of Claims to 

of Bartow and Chattooga Counties, Georgia, .asking compensation :for correct error in finding of late Southem Claims Commission-t{) the 

property t-aken and used bythe United States Army during the late -Committee-on War Claims. · 

war-to the Committee on War Claims. ·By :Mr . . PERKINS: Resolutions of citizens of Elk County, Kal)Sa8, 

By Mr. COLLINS: Petition of Walworth Manufacturing Company favoring the open.ing of the Oklahoma country to settlement and con- and others, in favor of legislation to carry into eifect the treaty with demning the employment of soldiers-to evict the settlers therefrom-

.l\1exico-Committee on Ways and Means. to the Committee on Indian Affairs . .Also, petition of Rev. John Wright and others, citizens of Boston, By Mr. P];TERS: Petition of citizens of Comal)che County, Kan1\Iass., in favor of additional legislation on tbe Mormon question-to sas, asking for passage of an act to make valid certain acts of notaries 

the Committee on the Judiciary. public taking final proofs on pre-emption claims-to the Committee on By Mr. CRISP: Petition of John A.. Cobb, S. B. Hawkins, 0. W. the Public Lands. . Hancock, and other citizensofSumter County, Georgia, asking further By Mr. ·:PETTIBONE: Petition of James 0. Broyles, ofWashington 

aid to the 'Vorld's Industrial and Cotton ·centennial Exposition at New .. County, Tennessee, •praying for pay for two horses taken and nsOO. by 

Orleans-to the Committee on Appropriations. the United States Army d1iring the late war-to the Committee on By :Mr. G. R. DAVIS: Petition of C. M. Keys &Co. and25others, lead- War Claims. 

ing shippers and dealers in live-stock, of Saint Louis, Mo., against the By M:r. POLAND: Petition of Rev. A. L. Cooper and others, of 

passage of the Hopkins resolution relating to theshippingoflive·stock- Springfield, Vt., praying for legislation upon the Mormon questionto the Committee on Commerce. to the Committee on.the Judiciary. 

Also, petition ofT. C.-Eastman and 18 others, leading shippers and By Mr. RAYMOND: Petition from citizens of Brule County, Dakota 

dealers in live-stock, of New York city, against the passage of the Hop- Territory, asking for the pas8age of the bill (8.1755) for opening apart 

kins resolution_:.to the same committee. of the Sioux reservation to settlement-to the Committee on Indian 

By Mr. ELLIS: Memorial and petition of John A. Palmer, index Affairs. · 

clerk Honse of Representatives-to the Committee on Accounts. By Mr. STEPHENSON: Joint resolution of the Legislature of the 

By Mr. GEDDES: PapersrelatingtotheclaimofSt. Andrew'sLodge, State of Wisconsin, relative to the purchase of the Portage Lake and 

No. 18, of Free and Accepted Masons, Cynthiana, Ky. ; also of James Lake Superior Ship Canal-to the Committee on Rivers and Harbors. 

S. Frizzell, ofCyn~iana; of Joseph B. McClintock, of Harrison County, Also, memorial of the Legislature of the State of Wisconsin, relative 

Kentucky; oftheestateofThomasV.Stirman,decea.sed; and of :Marcus to the Sturgeon Bay and Lake Michigan S)ripCanal-tothesamecomL. Broadwell, of Harrison County, Kentucky-to the Committee on mittee. _ 

War Claims. · Also, petition of E. C. Daniels and 26 others, of Sturgeon Bay, Door 

By Mr. GEORGE: Petition of citizens of Oregon, for the further im- County, Wisconsin, praying for an. increase of widows' pensions-to 

provement of Coquille River-to the Committee on Rivers and Harbors. the Committee on Pensions. 

By .Mr. GLASCOCK: Resolution of the Board of Trade of the city of By· Mr. STONE: Petition of Andre Thissell, of Essex C~unty, MassaSacramento, Cal., asking for ratification of treaty with Nicaragua, and chusetts, for pension-to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. 

the construction of the Nicaragua Canal-to the Committee on Foreign By Mr. TUCKER: Petition of Judson S. Post, forrelief-to the ComAffairs. · . mittee on Naval Affairs. 

· By :Mr. GREENLEAF: Petition of B. F. Wilber, F. S. Upton, John By Mr. VAN ALSTYNE: Petition of Rev. H. E. Stan~on and many 

D. Burr, and others, ci.tizensofGeneseo, N. Y., that the United States others, citizens of Albany, N.Y., asking Congresstopassalawsuppress· 

shall acquire the title to the two canals ~nnecting the Portage. Lake, ing polygamy-to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Michigan, ~~hLakeSuperior-totheCommitteeonRiversandHarbors. By Mr. VANCE: Petition of Ja-mes Taylor, for settlement of acconnta 

Also, petitiOn of Mrs. H. Otes, Mrs. M. Hayes, C. Roby, and {)thers, as delegate of Eastern band of North Carolina Cherokees-t{) the Comcitizens of the United States, asking that the 1tformon question may re- _mittee on Indi;m Affairs. 
1448' OONGR,ESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE .. FEBRUARY 9, 

Also, petition of Joseph Hensen (Bull Frog), a Cherokee Indian, as to certain lands iii North Carolinar-to the same committee. 

Bv Mr. A. J. WARNER: Petition of James N. Chamberline and 

others, against the repeal of section 4419, Revised Statutes-to the Committee on Commerce. 

By Mr. ·wiNANS: Petition of--veteran soldiers of MichigaD., for 11n 

increase in the pension allowed Jane Brent, widow of Captain Brent, Iat~ of the regular.Army-to -the Committee on Pensions. 

By Mr. WOODWARD: ResolutionoftheState Grangeof_Wisconsin, 

ilrging .amendmentofpa~ntlaws-to t~e Committee on. the Judiciary. 

By Mr. YAPLE: Petition of A. E. Knapp and 62 others, citizens of 

Kalamazoo! Mich., for legislation to check the increase of the 'evil of 

:M:ormoirlsm-to the same committee. 

The following petitions for the pa age of the Mexican war pension 

bill with Senate amendments were presented and evemlly referred to 

the Committee on·Pensions: 

By 1\Ir. BALLENTINE: Of citizens of Wayne County, Tennes ee. By Mr. BREITUNG: Of citizens of Platte, of Tr:we~e City; and of 

Omena, Mich. · By J\fr. CULBERTSON: Of 121 voter of Catlettsburg, Ky., and of 

472 citizens of Fearis, Ky. · .. By Mr. CURTIN: Of citizens of Elk County, of Clearfield County, 

of Miffiin County, of Centre COunty, and of Philipsburg, Pa. ·By Mr. FUNSTON: Of citizens of Coffeyville, of Ransomville, of 

Empire City, of Louisburg, of Oti:.c'\wa,- City, of Oswego, and of Paola, 

Kans. 

By .Mr. HART: Ofl\I. W. pargur and 114 others, soldiers of Highland County, Ohio. 

By Mr. KEIFER: Of Theodore Smith and 115 others, of Madison 

County, Ohio, and of H. 1\1. Cline ~nd 62 others, of Bellefontaine, 

Ohio: 

By Mr: KLEINER: Of ex-soldiers of Leopold, Ind. 

By Mr. LACEY: Of Charles . Daskam and 42 others, of Albion, 

Mich., and of A. D. Goodricn and 61 others, of Olivet, :Mich. 

By Mr. LOWRY:' Of62 eitizensofLigonier, Noble County, Indiana. 

By Mr. LYMAN: Of citizens of • omerviUt-, of Pepperell, of Shelbume Falls, and of Chademont-, l\Iass: By Mr. PATTON: Of 1\Irs. "U. :1lsgiver and 20 others, citizens of 

West Lebanon, ~ndiana County, Pennsylvania. 

By .Mr. RAYMOND: Of citizens of Union, Day, Hoghe , .and Yank· 

ton Counties, and of Den~er, Dak. 

By 1\'{r. OSSIAN RA 'Y: Of Madeline E. Cat1· and 39 others, of Stewartstown, N. H. 

By 1\Ir. RYAN; Of 184 citizen of Kansas. 

' By 1\Ir. H. Y. S~ITTH: Of 38 citizens of Perry', Dallas County, Iowa. 

By 1\Ir. STONE: Of citizens of Law1·ence, Essex Coll;Ilty, )lassa.-

chusetts. 

SENATE. 

J\IoNDAY, Feb't'lW't'Y 9, 1885. 

The Senate met at 11 o'clock a. m. Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. E. D. HUXTLEY, D. D. 

The Journal of the proceedings of Satmday last was read and ap~ 

proved'" 

CREDE.Nl'IAL • . . 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore presented the credentials of _DL'HEL 

W. VooRHEE , chosen by the Legislature of Indiana a Senator from 

that State for the term-commencing March 4, 1885; which were read, 

and ordered to be filed. 

1\Ir. 1\IORGAN presented the credentials of JAMES L. PUGH, chosen 

by the Legislature of Alabama a Senator from that State for the term 

commencing March 4, 1885; which were read, and ordered to be filed. , COMMITTEE SERVICE. 

1\Ir. PENDLETON. I am Tequested by the Senator from California 

[1\lr. FARLEY] to_ ask that he be excused from service upon the Committee on Commerce and the Committee on Transporta~ion Routes to 

the Seaboa1·d. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator fmm Ohio, on behalf of 

the Senator. from. California (1\Ir. FARLEY], asks. that the Senator from 

California be excused from further service upon the Committee on Commerce and the Committee on Transportation Routes to the Seal:Soard. 

Is there objection? The Chair hears.no objection, and the Senator from 

California is excused. . 1\Ir. PENDLETON. I now move that the Chair have authority to 

fill the vacnncies on tJ10se committees occasioned by the retirement of 

:Mr. FARLEY. 

The motion was agreed to by unanimous consent. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore.. The· Chair will appoint upon the 

Committee on -Commerce the Senator from Oregon [Mr. SLATER], and 

upon th~ Committeeon Transportation Routes to the Seaboard the Sen· 

ator from South Carolfua [Mr. BUTLER]. 

EXECUTIVE COMl'l:lUNICATIONS. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore laid before the Senate a communication 

from the S~retary of the Treasury, transmitting recommendations of 

theSnpervising Architect to extend the limit of cost of the public buildings at Leavenworth, Kans., and Peoria and Quincy, Til.; which, with 

the accompanying papers, was referred to the Committe~ on Public 

Buildings and Grounds, and Ol'dered_ to be printed. . He also laid b~fore the Senate a cm;nmunication from the Secretary of 

the Navy, transmitting, incompliance with the requirements of the joint· 

resolution of February 13, "1884, a detruled report of the expenditure 

of the appropriation for the Greely relief expedition; which, with the 

accompanying papers, was referred to the Committee on Naval Affairs, 

and ordered to be printed. 

PETITIOX. AXD MEMORIAL . 

.Mr. SHERMAN presented U1e petition of Sylvester F. Scord, president of the Worcester University, in 01?Jo, and other members of the 

faculty of that institution, praying for the passage of laws providing for 

the education of Indians; which was·1·eferred to the Committee on Indian Affairs. · 

Mr. PENDLETON presented petitions of the Block Publishing and 

Printing. Company, of Cincinnati, Ohio; the Times-Star Company, 

of Cincinnati, Ohio; the United Brethren Publishing House, of Dayton, Ohio; the Cincinnati {Ohio) Furniture World; the Publishing 

House of the Evangelical Association, of Cleveland, Ohio; the Iron 

Trade Review,_ of Cleveland, Ohio; L. Hirsch & Co., of Columbus, Ohio; 

the Jeffersonian, of Cambridge, Ohio; and Will C. Turner, ofColnmbus, Ohio, praying for a reduct-ion of the postage on second-class mail 

matte1·; which were referred to the Committee on Post-Offices and PostRi:>ads. 

· Ur. HOAR. I present the petition of the trustees and pastor and 

congte.,aation of the East Washington Colored 1\Iethodist Episcopal . chnrch, ofthe District of. Columbia, praying compensation for damages 

done their church property by certain public works. When that order 

is reached I sh::ill introduce, by request, a bill for the relief of these 

parties. I move that the petition be referred to the Committee on the 

District of Columbia. · · The motion was agreed to. 

1\:Ir. BUTLER presented a petition of citizens of Charleston, South 

Carolina, favoring-the adoption of certain amendments to the patent 

laws; which was referred to the Committee on Patents. 

He also presented a letter from William P. Craighill, LieutenantColonel of Engineers, United States Army, suggesting that the unex- pended balance appropria~ed for the monument at Yorktown, Va., be . u...~d for the erection of a small building and the employment of a watchman at that place; which was referred to the Committee on Appropriations. 

REPORTS OF COMl\llTTEES. 

1\Ir. :UAHO~, from the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, 

to whom was referred the bill (H. R.1339) to increase the appropria- _ tion for the erection of the public building at Pittsburgh, Pa., reported 

it without amendment. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was 1·efened the bill 

(H. R. 1013) for the erection of a public building at Troy, N. Y., re- ported it without amendment. 

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill 

(S. 2542) :to amend an act entitled ''An actforthe erection Qf a public 

building at Quincy, ill.," approved May 9, 1882, reported it without 

amendment. 

He also, from the same co'mmittee, to whom was referred ·the bill (S. 

2441) to amend an a~t entitled "An act to provide for the erection of a public bujlding _in the city of Peoria, in the State of Illinois," approved 

1\Iay 9, 1882, reported it without amendment. 

1\Ir. MAHONE. I desire to call the attention of S~nators to the re- port accompanying the bill cs.- 2617) to authorize the acquisition of 

certain parcels of real estate embraced in square No: 406 of the city of 

Washington, for the enlargement of the Post-Office Departnient building and to provide accommodations for the city post-office. The report 

is now being distributed, and I give notice that I shall call the bill up 

during the morning hour to-morrow. 

1\Ir. _PLUMB, from the Committee on Public Lands, to whom was re- ferred_ the bill (H. R. 489) to extend the laws of the United State over certain unorganized territory south 9f the State of Kansas, reported it 

without amendment. · 

PUBLIC BUILDING AT PITTSBURGH. 

l\Ir. MAHONE. I ask unanimous consent that the bills just reported by me from the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds 

may be taken up and considered. 

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is there objection? Tlie Chair hears n9~e, ~nd the first bill will be read. . -The Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, proceeded to consider 

the bill (H. R. 1339) to increase the appropriation for the erection of 

the public building at Pittsburgh, Pa. It proposes to inc1-ease the